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On the eighty-third installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about creating content for LinkedIn. Content for you to post on LinkedIn is all around you, so pay close attention to the examples Tristan provides that can help you get started posting on the platform. Having a great Linkedin profile is only half of the battle - the other half is posting and engaging on the platform to make sure you are being seen by the right people. Tristan also plugs our live interactive weekly webinar series The Access Point - check the link in the show notes for more information!Click here to sign up for The Access Point! Our second live interactive weekly webinar takes place September 22th at 7pm CST.https://bit.ly/3br7ab4Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan, back again to bring you another career tip. Before we get into the tip, I want to do another shameless plug for Living Corporate's new weekly live, interactive webinar called The Access Point, designed to prepare Black and brown college students for the workforce.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀We're bringing on corporate professionals, industry leaders, and top voices to cover topics from self-advocacy and personal branding to respectability politics and building allies, all things that will help aspiring professionals successfully transition from college to corporate.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀We kicked off the series this past Tuesday the 15th, so make so to join the hosts Tiffany Waddell Tate, Mike Yates, Brandon Gordon, and myself every Tuesday at 7 pm CST/8 pm EST from here on out. Make sure to sign up at the link in the description.Okay, so now that the promo is out of the way, let's talk about creating content on LinkedIn.Posting on LinkedIn has 2 main benefits: 1) it helps you be found on the platform and 2) it help you establish your thought leadership and professional brand. When I tell my clients that they have to start posting, the most common response I hear is, “I don’t know what to post.” If you feel this way, I’m here to tell you that content for you to post on LinkedIn is all around you. So I wanted to give you a few examples that can help you get started posting on the platform.When you think of posting on LinkedIn the most obvious places to start are your successes, things like new jobs, awards, certifications, licenses, etc. People love to see how your career is progressing and the honors that you may be receiving.Posting your successes is easy, but I’d also suggest focusing on the other end of the spectrum, your failures. Many of us have a complicated relationship with failure, and it does take quite a bit of vulnerability to share these but we have to understand that failure is not the opposite of success, it’s a defining factor in success. Each failure is designed to teach us something. Once you figure out what that something is, share it and watch the engagement flow.Often times we have to participate in training for work or even as part of organizations that we are involved in. Take the time to share what training you attended and your top 2 - 3 takeaways from it. LinkedIn loves to hear about people’s learning processes.If you stay on top of industry news, share your take on it. If you’re super dialed into what your company is doing in relation to this industry new and their plans have been made public, share them as part of your post. Maybe even tag some of your leadership team to show how engaged you are with the business.Another thing LinkedIn really likes is a good story. This could be about an interview experience, an interaction you’ve had at work, or even things like how you and your kids are dealing with virtual learning or transitioning back into the office once COVID restrictions were loosened. These stories can be powerful and provide people with an opportunity to relate to you and your experience.Lastly, sometimes the content is already available on LinkedIn via other people’s post. Take the time to reshare the post to add your insight, thoughts, and opinions.Before I go, here are some quick tips on posting. Start slow. If you don’t already post regularly, start by trying to set a consistent cadence like once a week until you start to feel more comfortable. Don’t be afraid to use hashtags but stick to no more than 3 -5 per post. Also, consider tagging people in your post, this can help create dialogue and boost engagement. Lastly, and I know this sounds corny, but like your own posts. It helps trick the algorithm and helps your post be seen. Having a great Linkedin Profile is only half of the battle, the other half is posting and engaging on the platform to make sure you are being seen by the right people.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach chats with Aubrey Blanche, the Director of Equitable Design & Impact at Culture Amp, about re-imagining tech and belonging. She discusses her complicated relationship with race and identity, talks about how to effectively combat diversity fatigue, and much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Aubrey and check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan!Connect with Aubrey on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Visit her personal website.Check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.Struggling with your Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) work? Kanarys—a Black-founded company—has your back. Regardless of where you are on your DEI journey, we arm you with the insights you need now to take action now. From audits to assessments to data-informed strategy, we'd love to be the partner you have been looking for. Email stacey@kanarys.com or learn more at https://www.kanarys.com/employerTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know what we're doing, right? Every single week we're having real talk in a corporate world. And what does that mean? That means we're having authentic conversations that what? Center and do what else? Amplify. Who? Black. And who else? Brown people. I keep on doing this weird call-and-response thing. I guess I'm just really excited. But the point is we're having these conversations, and we typically have them with movers and shakers, and that could be executives to entrepreneurs to social capital investors to activists to elected officials to public servants, authors, you know, whoever. We're talking to everybody. Typically these people are Black and brown, but every now and then we'll have some white or white-presenting folks on the podcast as well, and we're really passionate about that. Our goal is that if you're a Black or brown person or one of the onlys in your workplace that you listen to this and feel affirmed and heard, and if you're not one of those people that you take this opportunity, a rare opportunity, to really hear some frank conversations about, and from the persectives of, Black and brown people about being Black and brown at work, and you can use that information to be a better ally. See what I'm saying? So it helps everybody, and so like I said, every week we have an incredible guest, so let me just put our own collective back at Living Corporate. We've had some incredible guests though, and today's no different. We have Aubrey Blanche. Aubrey Blanche is The Mathpath - that's a math nerd and an empath, which is wild because that's, like, the Dark Side and the Light Side of The Force coming together. She's like a Gray Jedi. Anyway, director of equitable design and impact at Culture Amp and a start-up investor and adviser. Through all of her work, she seeks to question, re-imagine and re-design systems--now, y'all know we're gonna double-click on that in a minute--and practices that surround us to ensure that all people can access equitable opportunities and build a better world. Her work is undergirded--I like that word, "undergirded." Undergirded. Just say that to y'allselves, y'all. Undergirded. Undergirded by her training in social scientific methods and grounded in the fundamental dignity and value of every person. Aubrey, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Aubrey: Hey. Thank you so much for having me. I feel, like, genuinely blown away at the idea that I get to join you, and also your intro makes me want to cry. I just love what you're doing. I love the mission and the vision. And "undergirded" is such a fun word.Zach: It's so great, right? There's certain words that are just really nice to say. "Undergirded." "Plethora."Aubrey: Right? I mean, [I'm a?] deeply over-educated human being, so just occasionally getting to use those silly $17 words that you don't to, but [?].Zach: You don't have to. Erykah Badu once said, "What good do your words do if they don't understand you?" But that's for another conversation, another day. Look, I read your bio, or rather let me be honest--I took out, like, the first 20% of your bio for the sake of this conversation, but what does all of that really mean? Like, what do you actually do?Aubrey: Yeah, what do I do? I feel like what I try to do is crush white supremacy with capitalism, which is confusing conceptually, but really what I think I try to do is harness the privilege that I have and I guess the oppression I've experienced as this very liberal human, and we can talk about what that means, and try to use the privilege that I've had and try to figure out how to scale those out. Like, that's the [?] thing in my soul that I'm trying to do, and right now I happen to do that within the context of technology and investing and finance. What I'm really interested in is learning the rules of systems so that we can begin to evolve those systems so that they begin breaking themselves down where they are harming people.Zach: I like that. I like that a lot. There's a lot of nuance in what you just said, so that's why I'm really excited to get into this. In fact, let's talk a little bit about, like, this moment where we are, right? And before we do that, like, let's zoom in on our interaction about you being on this platform, right?Aubrey: Right. So for folks on the podcast, basically what happened is Zach was awesome and reached out to have me on, and my first sort of response was "Hey, want to be clear that I'm white-passing. I want to make sure that we have sort of BIPOC folks in front of my voice. I'm really happy to speak sort of to my people, but I also want to be respectful of not taking up more space than I need to," and that for me is because--it's really important to me just, like, on a basic, ethical level. Like, we have this moment. It's always been important to listen to those voices, and I've tried to create that space, but it's especially important now because so many people are listening. So I think I'm trying to figure out where my role is in this moment as a woman of color but someone who does have white privilege in so many settings, and then on top of that I'm trans-racially adopted, so there's even more nuance inside that sort of like--Zach: Wow.Aubrey: Yeah, it's a lot.Zach: That is a lot. Okay, so when you say trans-racially adopted, like, your parents are what ethnicity?Aubrey: Yeah. So I'm mixed, and I'm Mexican-American, and as of about a couple weeks ago I found that the other part is Irish. Fun fact - adoption is weird and keeps coming back to you. So my adoptive mother is second-gen American on both sides, Euro-American, and then my adopted father is actually Euro-American and Indigenous. So he's Choctaw and has been an Indigenous legal activist in addition to being sort of corporate counsel, but my dad, what's interesting is despite the fact that I grew up sort of in the Indigenous community and things like that is my dad is also white-passing. So my whole adoptive family looked hella white, but we actually had a really complex sort of racial identity within our family.Zach: I mean--so I think it's important, right? I mean, we're gonna get there in a minute, but... so you operate in this space, right? I know when I first saw your picture I was like--do you watch Steven Universe?Aubrey: I don't.Zach: Okay. So you should check out Steven Universe, 'cause, like, you give me strong Rose Quartz vibes. And it's a compliment. Like, you should look up Rose Quartz. She's great. But you kind of look like a star. Like, you do all these talks and all these things, and so outside looking in it's like--I think you sit in this space that's really interesting. So I'm not gonna profile you, 'cause I've listened to what you actually have to say, but you sit in this space that's, like, you speak about diversity, equity and inclusion, you are white-passing--like, your experience and your identity is much more complex than that, but you sit in this very influential space and it's, like, kind of--what I'm curious about is, considering the space that you've inhabited historically around this work, and when you think about this moment--like, it's kind of like a watershed moment, right? Like, people are really starting to call D&I institutions to account, particularly white women in these spaces and groups. I'm curious, like, is there anything right now that you're more sensitive to? You kind of talked a little bit about you've been thinking about it more. Like, where are you at just emotionally and mentally around this work right now?Aubrey: Yeah. So I think, like, the Overton window of what we can talk about to white people has shifted, and so what I mean by that is my personal philosophy is that I'm someone who was born in a situation that was let's just say much rougher than the one I got adopted into, and something I've always carried with me is--like, the phrase I use to describe it is "Little girls born like me do not sit in rooms and talk to billionaires." It's just a fact. Statistically speaking, there's no reason I should be in the place in the world that I am. And so what I think about is I've moved through these very white supremacist systems, right? Like, I got to survive 'cause I need more SPF than some people, and I've learned how those systems work, but the problem is I always felt really alienated by them because they didn't align with my sense of self, because for a lot of complicated reasons I really have been socialized and racialized as a Latina because of the social context I grew up in, and I didn't actually understand whiteness until I went to college and people stopped being racist to me, and I was like, "Wow, I didn't know that was optional." Truly, and it sounds really silly to someone I think, but just given the specific circumstances of my life that happened. So throughout my 20s as I sort of my grew in my consciousness on this I kind of said, "There are particular spaces I can speak to that people who are darker than me can't," and I own and acknowledge that that is a relic and a fact of a white supremacist system, but it's also still true. So what I try to do, and I will admit imperfectly, which is why I think we need people to keep us accountable to this integrity, is I try to talk to people who are going to listen to me more or I try to say things to shift the Overton window so that when darker people of color say them they receive less abuse. So I recognize when I say something first--and I say first meaning in ths space, not that it's my magical idea, that I'm less likely to just get shit on for it because I look like Karen. And so I think about it like, "Can I be the linebacker for Black women? Can I normalize that idea so that we can make that space less hostile so then I can go, "Now listen to who you should listen to, and let me bring that voice into the room"? So I think that's my dual responsibility, and now because suddenly we're seeing communities actually capable of listening to BIPOC folks without immediately abusing I'm much more careful about where I step back, because I think I have less internal intuition about where the correct action is, and so I'm trying to be more deferential. So that's where I am, but I wouldn't say that I know what I'm doing. I'm figuring it out. Zach: No, that's a really honest answer, and thank you for the context and background. I think your premise, what you started off with in terms of your purpose, is different than most folks. Like, if you ask most people their purpose, like, they're not going to say what their real purpose is, because most folks--painting with a wide brush, but I mean what I'm about to say--most folks' goal is to, by some degree, be white men, right? So, like, their goal is to get as much power as they can. So, like, your whole framing of, like, "I'm gonna block for this other person so that they can have a platform to actually speak, I'm gonna leverage my access and my power and my privilege to then create space for darker-skinned Latinx, for Black women, for other people who are societally, historically in different ways just on their face," no pun intended. Like, that's just not the typical goal, right? So we've talked a little bit about the nuances of your identity and your background, and that's incredible. I'd like to talk more about the concept of being white-presenting while also at the same time being a person of color, right? My challenge, Aubrey, right now is that, like, that "person of color" term is starting to become this, like, junk drawer thing where, like, everybody's a person of color, but we don't really specify or name identity in this work, even now. So, like, that's why with Living Corporate, we don't say "we center marginalized experiences of people of color at work," we say Black and brown because we really want to be explicit with who we're talking about. You know, you brought up being white-presenting. I'd like to hear more about the nuances of, from your perspective, Latinx identity and how you present versus culture and ethnicity, and let's also add, like, the dynamic of how people perceive you.Aubrey: So I think it's something I think about a lot, and I want to bring in another piece of my identity that's been really helpful for me in figuring this stuff out, which is I'm also a queer person. I'm, like, bisexual or pansexual or--I don't know, whatever's something that's definitely not definitely gay and not definitely straight, and I don't really think about it much harder than that, but I have a lot of things that are, like, queer signifiers in terms of my identity but, like, could also just be confused for [alt?] straight people. So again, most of my identities are invisible and liminal, and the way that I think about it is that we talk about that identity construction is a process, and so I can't change that, like, I didn't grow up in a Latin family, for example, and I would never lie about that. Something that was really interesting to me was--I have a friend who's Indigenous who gave me a framework for thinking about this because I've struggled with my legitimacy as, like, part of the Latinx community or how do I relate to this label, "people of color"? I have a complicated set of feelings with that language but think it can be useful in terms of identifying a collective. For me it was really about who I am, and my identity is actually not something that can be challenged. The fact is, right, my lineage comes from people in Mexico, but I also can acknowledge that I have both colonizer and colonized in my DNA, and that is something [I have to?] deal with, but the thing that a friend of mine said that gave me the legitimacy that my identity is real is he said, "I can't accept that the fact that we are pale means we are no longer from our ancestors, otherwise they would have been right that they could [BLEEP] the indigeniety out of us." And that, like, is probably pretty harsh, but for me I was like, "Yeah, you're right. There's an energy. There's a spirit. There's a culture." Now, I, for my own well-being did need to be put in a different family than the one I was originally born into. I've had to connect with and sort of become a part of my culture as an adult, so I've had a little bit of a different experience because of what was important for me. And so I think there's that, but I think to pretend, like, my experience in terms of economics, in terms of the way that I have experienced racism and racialization, are meaningfully different than most or a big portion of the Latinx community, and I think for me that tells me what my role should be. So I'm grateful for the folks who, like, welcome me into the community and don't do the, like, "You're not legitimate 'cause you have a different story," a story that also understands--here's a fun fact - my adoptive mother is the most incredible person I've ever met, absolutely saved my life, and also we know that women of the dominant race, you know, bringing children from the colonized race into their family is [?]. Like, both of those things are true, and so for me I say because I have this almost armor in the systems we live in, my role is to listen to my community and advocate to the majority for it because I can be a translator, because I can move between, and so rather than seeing my ability to play with those systems of oppressions as questions about my legitimacy, I relate to them as in they give me a special role for my activism in the same way I think each of us have a special role in the way that we bring our activism to life in line with our purpose and our unique privileges and oppressions. So yeah, that was really deep for you, but that's my honest answer, and I think I try to hold the humility that, like, I've definitely [BLEEP] up, right? I've definitely done things that were wrong, but I try to surround myself with people who tell me that when it's happening so I can at least try to minimize the way that, you know, my white fragility or my internalized racism or any other -isms aren't impacting the people around me.Zach: I mean, you out here just casually dropping wild bombs. You're doing a phenomenal job. You should continue on this path. Like, stay here. So let's talk a little bit about the culture summit in 2019 that you were at a guest speaker, a keynote speaker [at,] and you talked about diversity fatigue in tech, right? So it's interesting--we're going to continue to nail on this the next few questions, but I feel as if--so the majority has had to be aware or care about Black people for... let's see here, has it been, like, three months? Two-and-a-half months? Like, it's been a handful of months. Like, it hasn't been that long, and people are already talking about being tired. So, like, I'm curious about when you think about the concept of diversity fatigue with, like, white leaders, and especially as you think about it at an organizational level, like, what have you seen work well to manage diversity fatigue?Aubrey: Yeah. I think the thing about it--and this really relates to this idea that I say a lot, which is, like, [BLEEP] D&I, and what I don't actually mean is, like [BLEEP] the goal, and I think they're actually related things. People are tired. Like, I want to sit there and be like, "How dare you get tired?" But I understand how the human nervous system works, so I have to, like, deal with that as a real constraint. But I feel like diversity fatigue is partially happening because everybody's had the same ten diversity talks for five years. They, like, put some money into branding and putting a Black face on their website, and then threw their hands up and said, "Why isn't racism done?" And so when you describe it that way you're like, "Oh, yeah, that was never going to work in the first place." So I think the solution to diversity fatigue, rather than us, like, yelling at people who are tired, which is just going to make them turn off, and I, like, hold in my heart the frustration that we have to do this, right, because people are tired. They've done enough. But again, philosophical versus practical rationalism there. I think it's this move to equitable design that actually I think fights diversity fatigue, because what are people tired of? They're tired of being lectured at. They're tired of not doing. So instead of saying, "We care about D&I," my response is "If you don't have a budget and you don't have a time allocation, I don't care and you don't count," 'cause I'm sorry, your caring didn't help anyone. And that's what equitable design is, right? It's about what saying "What is my plan? What is my process? What is my data about what's broken and what is my idea and my action about how we'll try to fix it?" And when you go with that methodology, suddenly everybody gets a job. So maybe it's--I'm speaking about Culture Amp in this exact moment, our programs, right? Our Black employees' job right now is to attend the mental health program we're offering for them and to take care of themselves. That is their job.Zach: That is so healthy.Aubrey: Right? Like, that is your job right now. In our company anti-racism strategy, our Black [campers?], your job is to take care of yourself. We've made it clear. We've brought in experts. My job is to build the corporate strategy, you know? Our CEO's job is to fully fund the plan. This equitable design idea gives everyone a job, and it's hard to get fatigued with something when you've given people, like, little win breadcrumbs along the way. So I'm not [perfect?], and if folks want to they can check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan online. We didn't just publish the commitment, we published the operating plan, and at the end of this sort of six-month cycle we'll provide an update for folks because accountability matters. It's real. Cultureamp.com/antiracism if you want to check it out. The pillars are easy, which is support and care, accountability, education, and then access. So for me that's what equitable design is. It's everyone taking a look at the actions that they're already taking in their day and going, "How can I design this to create a more equitable impact?" So maybe you're giving a career coaching to that friend of a friend's kid. Why don't you ask that student to find an underrepresented classmate who you're also gonna give a career coaching conversation to? I'm telling you. I did it last month. When you read a book written by a Black woman, why don't you make sure you go online and write a review for it, because then the algorithm knows that people engage with that book. Right? It's not about always--although certainly if you want to donate to the movement for Black lives and everything I vehemently support you. I think people mistake that, like, activism, that anti-racism, that D&I is something separate from what they're already doing as opposed to a slight edit of the things they're doing. So that's how you overcome fatigue, and I'm totally fine if you as an ally--like, you just did that coaching conversation with someone who would not have had access to an executive before? Like, I'm chill if you pat yourself on the back for that. Go ahead. Like, I know, "ally cookies" or whatever, but if you want to self-high five or you want to tell another one of your friends who isn't marginalized from that group, like, "I did a good thing," and you want a high five from another white person, fine. Cool. If it keeps you motivated and it gets you to do the next 10 things over the next 10 and 100 years, then I'm fully supportive of that. So I guess that's where it is. Like, we fight diversity fatigue by doing things consistently that actually work. Zach: I feel like a large part of this work is massaging white discomfort or trying to figure out ways to, like, Jedi mind trick white folks into caring about Black and brown people. And, like, I hear what you're doing at Culture Amp. The link will be in the show notes, 'cause I just looked at it and it's fire. So it's worth, and I also shared it with a couple of mentors, but I'd like to get your reaction to what I just said and, like, if you agree with that, then, like, is that tenable in today's climate?Aubrey: That's such a good question. I was a little quiet because I was like, "Is it, like, 60% or 80% of the work?" Right? No, I think it absolutely is, and it's the reason that I choose to do this work, because I think something that people don't talk about enough--and I talk about in some communities that I'm building--us white-passing folks are the tactical weapons to solve this particular problem, right? Like, I don't just, like, code switch, although I do that too. I literally identity switch at work minute by minute because I have the unique ability to, like, feel both sides of the coin 'cause I've lived both sides of them, so that's actually a lot of the reason I do the work I do, because I know how much of this is, like, managing white discomfort, and frankly, my face partially manages white discomfort to have discussions about racism and white supremacy. So I think that's true. Now, your next question is really important. Is it tenable or sustainable? I have a complex answer to that. So philosophically my answer to you is no. My deeply practical, science lady answer is it's not an avoidable problem in the short term. So this is a weird theory I'm gonna give you, and it has to do with drug addiction, but I think it's relevant for anti-racism work. So here's a theory I've never spoken online before. So there's something really fascinating about drugs and how they work on the brain, which is that the dosage and the frequency that they hit the brain completely changes the brain's response to it. So, like, small amounts over time create resistance. Large amounts at once tend to cause addiction. I'm vastly oversimplifying, but just work with me. So I'll say people who experience racism--not people of color, but people who experience racism, we basically have been given doses of racial stress throughout our lives, so we now have resilience to it. I'm nto saying it's good. I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm just saying it's sort of a descriptive fact of the world. So white people, we basically have to dose them with enough racial stress in the right ratios at the right time to get them to be able to have these conversations, because what the research is telling us is white fragility is actually, like, people's brains perceiving they're in danger when they're in absolutely no danger whatsoever. Like, that's neuroscience. So philosophically I'm like, "Yeah, it's not sustainable," but we have to think about ways to give people experience through racial stress, white people specifically, so that they're resilient and can have the conversations, and I think that's the process that's happening right now in a broader cultural sense is that white people--I mean, have you seen the New York Times Bestseller list? It looks like my bookshelf. [?] on one of my shelves called "What White America's Reading." So what I'm saying is I think we're in a moment where white people are being dosed with racial stress in a way that they never have been, and so I am saying that, like, we're still probably going to have another--I don't know, I don't want to put a timeline on it. That's a terrible statistician thing to do, but I do think it will change because more white people are educating themselves, and even, like, white people that are in my family that I've never seen talk about racial justice before are, like, texting me and asking me questions. So, like, I'm really hopeful. I know how the 17 million different ways this could go sideways, but I have to hold onto that hope because that's what motivates me to push so hard right now. So I think that there's a real chance that there's enough white people who are like, "Oh, I get some rules now, and I at least know to shut up and listen," that we could build a coalition that's big enough to actually create fundamental structural change. Like, I have to believe that's true because that's what I spend all of my time pushing for.Zach: Right. I mean, I struggle with the ways that this space plays with language. I don't know, like, to a certain extent, Aubrey, like, the language itself becomes like, this test and, like, just becomes very classist, and it becomes really exclusionary, because we're talking in these very, like, esoteric terms that kind of mean whatever, right, and we write long Medium posts about this versus that, but at that same time a lot of folks are still using equity and equality interchangeably. So we really don't understand--when I say we I mean, like, just the common person, not even a D&I expert but just, like, the common person. I do think a word though, when we talk about this space and we talk about achieving belonging at work is, like, redistributing organizational power. I don't often hear the word "power," like, really employed in conversations, particularly around Black engagement, brown people. I don't hear that word. Have you thought about that? Is that significant to you at all?Aubrey: I think I want to add another word in, 'cause I agree with you, right? Getting really esoteric about language, it excludes people who haven't had those discussions about those specific subtle differences. I talk about equity. I actually don't really use the word equality. I don't think about equality that much.Zach: I don't either, but people be throwing--I've seen it. I've seen it, like, some big brands have used the word equality. I'm like, "Why are we--"Aubrey: I'll just give my particular view, and I want to do this without, like, throwing shade, but for me I tend to see people use equality when they're familiar with a lot of the, like, deep social justice theories, because they're articulating the outcome, and equality is the outcome of the process of equity, and the process of equity, by literal definition, is about redistributing power and opportunity, at least in the way that I perceive it. I think the other term that we have to talk about or that I think about a lot, and I can't believe I work at a place where I have, like, advanced, deep conversations with executives about this, is [?] collective organizational justice. I think justice is helpful because there's--I just learned a new type of justice, which is, like, my favorite fact ever, but thinking about, like, what does procedural justice look like, right? Equitable design creates processes that create procedural justice. I think about testimonial justice. So how do I make sure that people's stories have the space to be told in the ways that they need to to respect human dignity and opportunity? And so I think redistributing organizational power is at the core of what I do, so really what I'm doing all day, whether I'm writing a corporate strategy or thinking about what hat I need to wear in a particular conversation, is I'm doing a power analysis of the situation. Like, a good example of this, and I'm gonna put this out there, when I think about power and systemic power, right, one of the most abusive things that exists that most D&I leaders aren't even talking about are forced arbitration agreements. You have just [?] or also class action rights. So by including that in your employment contract to all of the CEOs and leaders listening, what you are saying is "[BLEEP] you and your power. You have absolutely no recourse that is fair if we mess up and harm you," and I truly believe that that's true, because what you're doing is stripping that individual of the way that they might balance their power against the power of a corporation with backers, and that's even ignoring the racial power dynamics or the ableist power dynamics there. So I think we would be so much better served if we talked about power, but then the other important thing I want to bring in--and I realize it's your thing, but I'm gonna ask you a question, which is I don't think that people understand the difference between power with and power over, and it relates to [?] earlier where I almost laughed--not at you, but you said, like, "You're giving up power," and I almost laughed because I don't think by creating space for people I'm giving up power, because my definition of power is "power with," so I believe that when I move out of a particular space, I am gaining power because the collective is gaining power and I'm a part of that collective.Zach: But, see, in that though there's, like, this--I don't know. You have to have a different mindset and premise that you're operating from to even see that as power though, right? Because most people don't--it's a zero-sum game. There's also, like, a very capitalistic mindset to it too. So if you heavily prescribe to historically oppressive systems and you're not necessarily, like--you don't think in communal terms or frames, then you're not going to see it that way. I agree with you though that, like, the idea of power with and power over is--and it's funny, because I didn't know that's what you were going to say. I didn't know that that's what that meant in that context. I thought you meant, like, power with being like--I don't know, I interpreted it differently. I think about the fact that a lot of people don't consider the fact that, like, even if they aren't high in an organization, they still have power by way of their whiteness, and that's not a theoretical power. Like, it's a real power. As an example, let's pretend you and I work at Culture Amp and we are a part of the same team. We have the same job. In fact, I may be senior to you in the organization. The reality is, like, if you wanted to, you could just share a couple of points of feedback to other people around me and I could be fired. Not at Culture Amp, but you know what I mean. You have the societal--you have advantages to where if you say, "You know what? I just don't think Zach is really cutting it," or "I don't really think Zach is that bright," or "I don't think" whatever or "Zach makes me feel uncomfortable" or whatever the case is, right, and so what was a struggle for me is when we talk about power, yes, we're talking about, like, the white executives, or just executives period, like, people who are in positions of organizational authority, but also the people who are not in organizational authority who still can harm Black and brown people who should, on paper, be protected, even by the very pessimistic and harmful rules that that organization has created for its own leadership. Like, they still don't really even participate or benefit from those protections because of the color of their skin or because of a disability or whatever the case may be, you know what I mean?Aubrey: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, and I think that's actually something we don't teach people. I think it's, like, American culture in general is very aggressive. Like, a lot of our cultural values are about control, but we don't actually have a dialogue about it. So those of us on the bottom end of the distribution in any context tend to talk about it, but the people at the top don't, and so yeah, I think people--also because we're in this sort of capitalistic society. I say that as if I'm, like--capitalism is like traffic. I don't like it, but I have to be in it. I got that from Nicole Sanchez. I want to give her a shout-out. She's brilliant. I can only say that she's someone who has guided me and taught me, and I appreciate her wisdom, and I don't even have time to describe how much I think she's great, but I think that's it, that people don't understand power. And also I think there's this weird game in--I think it's everywhere, but, like, American culture lies about it, where the thing is people actually, like, crave power and status, but they have to lie about wanting it, and it comes from our whole lie about, like, "Classes don't exist in America," even though they obviously do. "We're not a classist system." Yeah, we are. I've been on every rung of it. Trust me, I know. At different points in my life.Zach: Right. Let's talk a little bit about--part of your bio I read included the concept of re-imagining systems, right? So I've had on a few guests, and many of them believe that this is a watershed moment for, quote-unquote, D&I, HR culture, like, that whole space. Do you think there's any radical re-imagining that needs to happen today or that really should have happened a while ago but is certainly, like, further mobilized by this moment?Aubrey: Absolutely. I mean, like, the thing is the phrase--it's been repeated to me, like, every week, like, "Never waste a good crisis." Well, what I mean is don't waste the attention on these problems, because attention is what can get you the solutions. So yeah, do I think it's a watershed? Gosh, I hope so. I hope that companies stop doing unconscious training and we have honest conversations about the fact that it was conscious design decisions in organizations that create intentional discrimination and exclusion. I've been saying that to everyone with a C-level title I can talk to. If you're like, "Unconscious bias," I'm like, "It was never unconscious bias. You were just too fragile to hear it. It was conscious failures of leadership."Zach: Listen... I'll never forget--this was some years ago--I was talking to a leader about... and it was literally on my way out, 'cause I left, and I made a risk log as I was leaving. I said, "These are just things you need to know about the project we was on and the people on your team. Here are things that would help you if you just considered the risks." Got on the phone. I had already resigned, so, like, it was, like, my last week, right? So then we're talking and she's like... one of the risk ops on there was--I literally made it so soft. I said "potential unconscious bias," and her response was "I've never had a situation where I've been unconsciously bias." And I said, "Well, by the very nature of the concept you wouldn't know if you had been unconsciously bias, 'cause it's unconscious." So it's wild when you think about, like, the multiple levels of grace and outs that white people provide themselves through diversity and inclusion work. It's just not to me about justice, not about equity, really it's not about Black and brown people at all, it's just about shoring up power and control while kind of, like, protecting yourselves from litigious risk, right? But it's not real.Aubrey: You know what, Zach? You just said the word "risk," and I want to one, yes, +1,000 you, and I want to talk about the way that risk can be re-imagined, and it's a thing I've been saying to lawyers and executives, not just at Culture Amp. Like I said, literally to anyone who will listen, because I figure I have my, like, Hamilton, my [?] energy about this, like, how much [?] can we get in this moment? Which is that we can decide that risk means the company losing business because we have to fire an executive who's an abusive [BLEEP]. Like, violations of human dignity are a risk we cannot bear, and we simply choose, when we identify abusers, to remove them out of our organizations. Like, that's a choice that people can make about the definition of risk. And frankly, even if you're talking in capitalistic terms, if you think about how much companies spend on, like, external legal firms when they get sued for discrimation, it is so much cheaper to fire an executive and hire a new one. Or anyone in the organization, right? If they're not an executive they're even less financially, you know, sort of creating return for the business. So again I go back to this idea of re-imagining. Let's take the words and the concepts and just ask the basic question - "Do we have to do it this way? Is there a better way?" A company could say, "We value people being treated well because we know that treating you well equals better cognition, which equals more innovation, which in this economy, in our business, equals more dollars and revenue." We can choose to act as if that is true, and that choice and that action is what builds the world in which it is true. So I'm saying this, like, I live in an industry where everyone's like, "We're changing the world." I'm like, "You're shooting a rocket into space. Someone did that already." Not to diminish that it's an incredible feat of engineering to get a rocket into space. It's incredible, but it's actually less incredible than being like, "Maybe we should treat our employees like full humans who are deserving of dignity." Like, that doesn't seem that bananas to me.Zach: Well, it doesn't though because you're rejecting white supremacy and patriarchy, like, full-stop.Aubrey: Because it's lame and it diminishes--[?] I could drive, like, what, a Lamborghini because I look white? Like, my soul is not better off. Other beings aren't better off. Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but white supremacy diminishes everyone, even those of us who benefit from it. Obviously those of us who benefit should do more work full-stop.Zach: Right. I feel you. I also think it's wack, but that's the reason. So what about this time right now scares you, Aubrey, mathpath, white-presenting woman, complex background. Like, is there anything right now that you feel more in the spotlight or more pressured?Aubrey: The thing that I'm, like, deeply afraid of in this moment, to be specific, is I know what the United States does to people who don't identify as white in history, and I'm afraid that white America won't take the signals that we're deep down the road to genocide seriously enough until we all start dying in higher numbers. That is actually what I'm afraid of, that white people don't think it's urgent enough to burn [BLEEP] down over, because the fact is, like, there are children in cages. This has been happening forever. We have police forces gunning down innocent civilians of all colors, although we know some communities experience that disproportionately. So what scares me? People wanting to lull themselves into a sense of security because they want the world to be better than it is.Zach: Yeah, it's scary. I think about where we are right now and just the death count because of COVID-19, and I think the fact that "defund the police" is still becoming such a--people are still pushing back so hard. I say, "Y'all, the data's right here. They're not solving crime. They're bleeding communities dry because the budgets are way too hard. We are underserved in these other service areas." And yet that's still, like, a radical, crazy idea. We're still pushing back against, like, the idea of reparations. Folks are still sending kids to school, right now, in the middle of a pandemic. Like you said, kids in cages. You're right. It's scary because--I don't know. There's a certain level of awareness that's been really cool to see. Kind of weird, to be frank. As a Black person it's kind of strange. But at the same time I'm looking everything and I'm just like, "Yo, this is--" Just talking about the pandemic alone, like, we haven't even hit the second wave, and so it's just like, "What are we doing?" So I hear you, that's a fear of mine too.Aubrey: That was the honest answer. It wasn't an upper, but [?] all of these things are under people's control, to pay attention, to advocate [?], and that's what I was going to link it to. Like, if that's not the world you want to see, refuse to live in it.Zach: Right, no, 100%. Okay, so let's wrap it up on this one. If you had to give three things executive leaders should be keeping in mind when it comes to engaging and retaining Black talent specifically, and in general a more socially conscious workforce--you think about Gen Z--like, what would those three things be?Aubrey: #1: You need to go to therapy to deal with your own self-esteem, control and power issues. They will absolutely come out in the workplace. #2: You must educate youreslf, and the Google machine is an incredible resource.Zach: And it's free.Aubrey: Free! There are so many people from Gen Z and the Black community that have put their thoughts and life experiences online you do not have to go bother someone who works with you. #3: What you value is not what they value, and they are coming to power. You need to learn how to gracefully evolve with the world. Those would be my most heartfelt pieces of advice to make what is an inevitable transition something that you can participate in and bring into the world as opposed to something you can fight and that will be painful.Zach: That's something that just kind of happens to you, 'cause it's going to happen, right?Aubrey: I mean, like, [?] is destiny. We know where this is going, so you can either be a part of that change and come into that new world or you can kick and scream, but it's coming, and it can either be fun or not fun, and that's really up to you.Zach: I mean, first of all, this has been fire. We haven't done sound effects in a while, but I still have them. Sound Man gonna put 'em in right here. And a Flex bomb too. There you go. Okay. So this has been incredible. You know what? I'm calling it right here. Aubrey Blanche, you are a friend of the show. Culture Amp, y'all are welcome here any time. This is not an ad. Culture Amp, what's up?Aubrey: Thank you for creating this space. I'm really grateful for this space to get to unpack these things. I guess my hope is other folks who have some life stories similar to mine get some wisdom and inspiration out of it so that they can do something that makes the world more incredible. So thank you so much for creating this space. I'm really grateful.Zach: Look, I appreciate you. This is great. Y'all, this has been Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. You know what we do. We have these conversations every single Tuesday, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips, and on Saturdays we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger. So we have, like, a whole network really on one platform. You just have to check in when you check in, okay? But look, that's been us. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up. I'm not gonna go through all the domains. We got all of 'em except for livingcorporate.com. We have all the other ones, so just type us in and you'll see us over there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Aubrey Blanche, leader, mover, shaker. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach makes a few quick announcements on this special Monday upload. Click the links in the show notes to sign up for our first live interactive weekly webinar The Access Point and to donate to our Kickstarter! The Access Point kicks off tomorrow night, September 15th, at 7:00 PM CST.Click here to sign up for The Access Point! Our first live interactive weekly webinar takes place September 15th at 7pm CST.Donate to our Kickstarter by clicking here. Thank you so much for your support!Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.

On the final installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder and CEO of Byrd Career Consulting, takes a deep dive into exploring racism in the workplace. She shares some of the racist experiences she's had throughout her career, outlines action items to take if you find yourself in a toxic work environment, and more. We'd like to extend our deepest gratitude to Latesha for hosting this series - it was an amazing run!Stop by LateshaByrd.com! Click here to check out Latesha's shop, and don't forget the 60% discount code GETTHECOINS.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Check out Latesha's YouTube channel.Connect with Byrd Career Consulting via LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate. I'm coming in here to say thank y'all. It's really two ways. I come in and I thank the listeners, but the reason why we've been able to even create all of the content that y'all hear--'cause I talk to folks and they're like, "Dang, you're dropping three episodes a week?" It's like, "Yeah, we are," but the reason we're able to do that is because we have a team, a team of people that come in and contribute their time and their energy. Really, you know, I don't work with, quote-unquote, the folks that contribute to Living Corporate. They just submit the content to me and then I distribute it, right? So Living Corporate's flagship show is really almost like a distributor of different series and content, right? Like, we have our content on Tuesdays. We have Tristan's Tips, then we have The Link Up with Latesha and Amy C. Waninger alternating on Saturdays, and it's been incredible. Like, I've been very thankful because we've been able to create such consistently insightful content, and I know it's insightful not just based on my own understanding of what I'm listening to but from the feedback that y'all have provided. So I'm just really thankful for this team, and it's with that I'm sharing, and it's bittersweet but I'm excited for her, this is the last episode of The Link Up with Latesha. So make sure y'all check out Latesha Byrd. We're gonna have all the stuff in the show notes, especially Career Chasers. So make sure you check out all of the information in the show notes, subscribe to Career Chasers, Latesha Byrd. If you are out there and you're a Black or brown woman and you're looking to really elevate, continue to manifest, mature your career--I was looking for M words--then Latesha Byrd is the person you need to engage, right? She is the name. So make sure y'all check her out. Until next time. Peace.Latesha: Thank you all for joining. I had a few thoughts. So I'll go ahead and start. One, I think that there is a war that we are fighting. I mean, we're fighting a lot right now. We're fighting COVID, 'cause people still out here catching the corona. We're dealing with police brutality. Of course that's been around. And we're dealing with racism, and we're dealing with oppression. This isn't anything new to us at all. I think it's interesting how many people are acting so surprised or distraught or shocked at how our people are being treated, but this isn't anything new. So one, I'm speaking from a lens of three things: first, a Black woman in the corporate space. I worked in the accounting industry for 5 years, first as an actual accountant and then I moved into recruiting before I left corporate America and really jumped into full-time entrepreneurship. My time in corporate was so traumatic that it actually pushed me to leave much sooner. Corporate was pushing me to depression and to heavy anxiety, and I just had to get the hell out, and it got to a point where I said, "You know what? I'm just gonna have to do this thing, and if I fail, I'd rather bet on me," because corporate was stifling my growth. I wasn't feeling valued. I wasn't feeling respected, and I felt like they didn't really get to know me for who I was. Like, for some reason I picked up the angry Black woman narrative, but more to come on that. Second lens is as a recruiter. So I spent 3 years recruiting in the accounting industry, and I recruited for 5 offices, 2 in Charlotte, New York, Jacksonville, Tampa. I was 25 years old leading recruiting efforts for an accounting firm, and I had direct access to the CEO. I had direct access to the chief people officer to the point where, like, I could pull up in their office no appointment. I can email them and know that I'm going to get a response. I had a really close proximity to leadership, and I used that to my advantage, but I also was able to call out a lot of things that I witnessed being someone who is on the recruiting, hiring side. And then the third lens that I'm speaking from is being a career coach. So I coach countless, you know--I'm not gonna say I only coach Black people. Like, I have white clients. I have Latin clients. I have Black clients. But my heart really goes out to the Black women that I coach because just about all of them have all shared some really traumatic experience with me to the point that they don't even know that they're dealing with trauma, that they're dealing with racism every day, and they still show up to work and do the damn thing. I'm tired. I'm angry of what we have to go through in the workplace, and I don't even want to talk about the workplace, but what we are dealing with in our communities, you know? What we're dealing with at home. Some of us might be taking care of sick family members or we're worried about our parents and grandparents and we're trying to take care of our kids. Now dealing with not only this pandemic but police brutality and the media and just all of that and still having to show up to work every single day, it takes so much courage and bravery, and I just want to say, like, thank y'all. Thank y'all for still showing up and doing the work. I know it's hard, but I want you to know that you are valued. I feel you. I see you. I hear you. You're not doing this in vain. You are extremely important at work. Everything I do as a career coach is centered around career empowerment. If you follow me, you know that I'm very passionate about career empowerment. What I mean by that is you basically showing up to work knowing that you deserve to take up space and knowing that your voice should be heard. You shouldn't be begging for a promotion when you know you can run laps around your boss and you've been doing his job and he can't do his job without you. Promote me and pay me. And y'all know how I feel about that. So what I might say tonight, it might hurt some feelings, it might piss somebody off, but like I said, I'm speaking from a place of wanting to provide truth. I'm wanting to know that, again, I've experienced what you all are going through. I think words matter, I think language matters, and I think it's time for us to really start to hold companies accountable to valuing Black people, not just throwing us up on the website. Not just hosting events during Black History Month. Not treating D&I as something that is extracurricular, but actually making sure that we are getting promoted, that we are being hired, that companies are actually taking their dollars and time and energy to recruit, hire, promote and advance Black people. There is no reason why Black women are the largest group of--I think we're the largest group in corporate America or in the workplace--I know we're, like, leading the efforts on graduating from college with degrees, so why when you look at the CEOs, why when you look at the C-suite, why when you look at leadership positions are we not represented there? And companies will say, "Oh, we can't find diverse talent," or they'll say, "Well, we have two people on our team, and we're just so proud of our diversity." I don't know what to be more angry at. I don't know if I should be more upset at how companies are responding right now when it's like, "We see you." Companies are like, "We stand in solidarity with Black Lives Matter." Do Black lives matter? To you and your organization? Or are you just putting this on social media because it's a cute post? Companies should be putting in--and this is my opinion. These are the opinions of Latesha Byrd and nobody else, no other companies. I really would like to see companies holding themselves more accountable for our advancement, whether that be metrics, recruiting at HBCUs just as much as we do PWIs and stop thinking that recruiting at an HBCU is charity work. I want to see more metrics around not only the recruiting and the hiring, but what about the retention and the promotion? Why are Black employees coming and going like it's a car wash? Like we an Autobell on a Sunday? Companies need to create a space for marginalized employees to perform well. This is why I do this work. I just want to say that. So let's talk about privilege. So privilege is choosing not to pay attention to a problem because it doesn't affect you. I don't want to give any company a gold sticker or a cookie for saying, "I am an ally and I stand with you." What does that mean? You stand with me? Do better. This is a problem, because studies shown in 2045 the majority of the U.S. will not be white. We are getting more and more diverse as a population,a nd if companies don't really start to change their practices, they're not gonna be able to know how to communicate to their communities, to their customers, to their core audience, and I think that's really actually starting to show its face right now in some of the tone-deaf messages that we're seeing. You know, I don't have the answers, but I would like to see leaders actually advocating for us, speaking up for us and advocating, like, for us to actually get promoted. We shouldn't be surprised when a Black woman says, "I want to get promoted." Like, they will legit look at you surprised when you say that. Like, "Oh, no, you should just be happy to have this job. You asking for more? Uh-uh. We gave you this crumb." But you're giving Joe and Billy and Tom over here a whole meal and an appetizer and a dessert, and you're giving me a little crumb and you expect me to be happy with that? I can't even get a real drink. Y'all giving me a glass of water. Come on. If I can give any advice here, I would just say to hold your manager accountable if you can. You have to hold your manager accountable to your performance and share your goals and don't be afraid to share your goals, and continue to advocate for yourself, even if no one else is advocating for you. And find those allies. Call people out on their privilege. I have a couple of scenarios I want to talk about. Something that I tweeted earlier, I was just saying that as a recruiter I saw a lot in terms of how companies--I saw a lot of bias, even in our leadership, and there was one particular time when we were having a roundtable about intern performance, and there was one white intern we were talking about, and he wasn't performing well. Like, he just wasn't doing a good job, and they said, "Oh, well, he didn't get the right training. Oh, no, I think we just need to give him some more training," and y'all, this was a white intern, and just a few seconds before that every time they'd bring up a Black intern, "Oh, Such-and-such doesn't talk to us." "They're really quiet." "They don't ask questions." So when it got to us actually talking about white intern and they alluded to the fact that he didn't get the proper training, my jaw literally dropped on the phone. Like, dead silence. That was a clear indication of an actual bias. Like, companies really will make excuses for those, and luckily because I was the one on the phone during these calls really advocating for my Black interns, my Black candidates, I would always put it back on them. Like, when they would say, "Oh, well, Such-and-such isn't talking to us," or all this bad feedback, my first question is "Did you actually communicate this feedback to them?" And it would be crickets. So why are you holding people accountable to something that you didn't even communicate was expected? It is your job as a leader to make sure they are getting the right support. If they're not talking, then talk to them. It's really frustrating because it's like two Americas, and it was so frustrating because, y'all, I felt like if I wasn't in that call, they would've just not extended a full-time offer to those interns because they were quiet. I'll tell y'all another example. There was a new Black hire in an office, and I had developed, like, a mentor relationship with her, and so she felt very uncomfortable in that office because she was the only Black woman. And again, y'all, I'm 25 years old. I'm in a leadership role in recruiting and had close proximity to leadership, so the partner that managed that office where she worked actually gave me a call one day and said, "I just don't know what to do. She's not really talking to us." And then she was like, "There was a fire drill and everybody had to leave the office, and she had her headphones in. She didn't want to talk to us." And I was so confused, and so I basically said, "Okay, well, did you actually start a conversation with her?" "Oh, no. She just seemed like she didn't want to talk to us." They really make a lot of assumptions. You know, it's like we can't do anything right, to be honest with you. We're expected to smile and just, "Hey, how was your weekend? How was your day?" Like, that's just not how we are as a people, and so I had a very frank conversation with her and I said, "Maybe she doesn't feel comfortable speaking to you all. Maybe she doesn't feel comfortable talking to you. Have you ever thought that there's no one else here that looks like her?" Like, "Is this really a safe space for her? Are you creating that safe space?" You as a leader, you as a person who has influence here, it starts with you, and it has to go from the top down. I'm a huge advocate of that. And I guess the question is, like, who is holding leadership accountable here? Our white counterparts are expecting for us to educate them on how they should show up for us, but we've been doing this work for many years. Like, we're tired. We just want to be able to do our jobs and go home. So that's very frustrating, and I think the other thing is that I don't think that we should be the ones responsible for their education. I don't. If you aren't the type that is super bubbly--and we're not really bubbly people. Y'all see me right now. This is how I am all the time. I'm not a bubbly person, unless I'm drunk or something, but we're typically very direct. I know I'm a very serious person, especially as it comes to the work, so I'll talk about what I did. So I knew that people were going to have assumptions or these biases about me because I'm not gonna walk around and smile at you and be like, "Hey, how was your day?" I don't care, to be blunt. I don't care. So what I did was I said, "Who are the key players, the key stakeholders? Who are the decision makers at my company that I need to really build relationships with," and when I say need to build relationships with I mean who are the ones who can actually make decisions on how I grow here, and those are the folks that I took the time to really know and I set up recurring meetings with them, and maybe if you guys don't want to do something formal the way I did you can make it a little bit informal, but you do have to get in front of the people who have the power to make, you know, you get promoted, a raise, whatever it is that you want. You have to create visibility for yourself, and you can't really depend on anybody else to give it to you. Think about this, and here's what I see with a lot of the Black women that I coach. They're very, very, very good at their jobs. Y'all know we can go in and run a company real quick. "Get this together. You over here. Uh-huh. Sit right there. Send that email. Get the memo together." Like, we take command and we take charge and we're very good at that, okay? So what happens is so many Black women get pigeonholed because they're too damn good at their job and their boss doesn't want them to leave. Why would our boss want us to get promoted when we're already doing his job and we're making them look damn good? So this is why you have to be strategic. So with that being said, you have to advocate for your goals and for your growth, because leaving it up to the person you report to, they might just want you to stay where you are because you're doing a really good job and you're making their job easier. Y'all have to remember that, y'all. Literally that is what oppression looks like. That is what oppression looks like. There is a Medium article, "From Office Pet to Office Threat," and that's exactly how it starts. You know, Black women are, like, the token. "We love Black girls. Like, we want to talk to you about your hair, we love your outfit, you're just so fly," and then when I'm real fly in these agendas and leading these meetings, now you're scared and intimidated. What happened to that energy you had before when you really loved me and thought I was great? So this is why you do have to be strategic. If your boss is literally in your way of you getting promoted, you've got to figure out an alternative. You have to go around. If you're talking to your boss and you're like, "Look, I'm ready to get promoted," and he's like, "Okay, just check back in 5 years," you've got to go around him. You have to. And this is why you have to build relationships with other people, not just the person you report to, and it has to be people that are in leadership. Here's another strategy. This is why you have to be really observant, and I think we are as a people. We're typically very observant and a little bit cautious with who we deal with anyway. So you've got to figure out the people that are in positions of power and, like, who's in close proximity to them, and you've got to get close to them too. I don't care if he's on your team or not on your team. Like, figure out a way to finesse. That's all. And if you have to be willing to leave that company, leave. Please. Leave your companies if you have to. You do not have to stay there, and I think that's another thing that we forget sometimes. We have a lot more power than we give permission to really recognize and acknowledge. Always keep your resume updated, and I have plenty of podcasts that I've done that I can share on how to make sure you're ready at all times. If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready. The other thing is some of the best jobs when you're not even looking. You do have to be ready for that as well. So keeping your resume updated, always networking, and you have to have relationships with I think other people that look like us at other companies to just ask them, like, "Is this your experience too? Are you dealing with this as well?" A lot of people have asked me about interviews. "Is it okay if I ask the company about their D&I initiatives and how they're combating racism in the interview?" You can ask them all day, but you know what they're gonna say? "Oh, yeah. We celebrate diversity, and we are inclusive. We just had a Black history program, and it was great. You can see our website. We just volunteered and gave back to the Black homeless kids." Come on, y'all. Do y'all think they're gonna tell you everything that you need to know in the interview? No. This is why you have to talk to other people. You gotta know people at other organizations. You have to know Black people at other organizations that will really tell you the real deal. Companies will say, "Oh, we got a Black person interviewing here? Okay, let me go get our only Black employee to be in this interview with you." Y'all know the games, y'all know the vibes. So be willing to leave if you must. You are never stuck. Don't be afraid to speak up for your goals. Be strategic in your networking. But at the end of the day, I'm really on some, like, companies need to do better, and we need to start calling them out. I think that we know that we're onto them. Like, everyone is being held accountable right now, and I want to continue to see that. Not only do I want companies to post, you know, that Black Lives Matter and that's great, but, like, if Black lives matter, then Black lives should matter in your board room. They should matter even outside of diversity and inclusion. Black lives should really matter a lot more than a freaking Instagram post and a caption. So I really want them to be about that life, and if you can, if you are in a position of leadership, if you're able to advocate for another Black employee at work when they don't feel seen or when no one's speaking up for them, like, please do that. You might make people uncomfortable. Black lives matter 365 days of the year, not just the 28 days in February. You have to be okay with making other people uncomfortable as well. I think that if you are up for it, as a Black employee this is a good time to be transparent with your leadership if you don't feel well. If you're not emotionally well right now, it's okay to say, like, "Look, Karen, I'm not doing too hot right now." I think that we should be able to say, like, "What I'm dealing with right now is Black trauma. I am traumatized but what's going on in my community. I'm traumatized by what I'm seeing in the media. And I also don't feel comfortable, you know, being the only Black person in this space. I don't feel seen." I was having a conversation with the Career Chasers community earlier, and during their team call when it came to everyone talking about their weekends they were talking about how they had a great weekend and spending time with the family and they were able to get out and enjoy the weather, and it's really like we live in two different worlds. So if you're not good at work, don't say that you're good, you know? We are uncomfortable pretty much all of our time in corporate. We are always uncomfortable. So you trying to, you know, ensure that your co-worker isn't uncomfortable, why? Why? This is a great time and a chance for you to really talk about how you feel, but it is not your job to educate. It's also not your job to lead this effort of change in your organization unless you're really up for it. I'm never gonna say don't do it, but you don't have to, and it should not be all on you. This is where even those individuals that lead the Black resource groups or the Black employee groups, you know, at their job, we all know that leadership has to support it and, like, we need white leadership to be involved. It can't just be a Black thing. That's not the sole point. So speak up for yourself. Let them know how you truly feel. If someone is on some BS and they're saying all lives matter at work right now, like, that is an issue. I think we have very strong intuition too, so, like, you know what is the right thing to do. Listen to your spirit and let that guide you. But if someone is really on some racist BS, I think that that is intolerable, and I would let your--whoever the power might be, let them know that you don't feel comfortable. It's not okay for anyone at work to be screaming "all lives matter" right now when, you know, we are brutalized for the world to see, and not even the U.S. Like, there are so many countries now that are protesting against police brutality, but you're still screaming "all lives matter?" Get out of here. So if you are experiencing that, figure out who you can speak with. Maybe it has to be anonymous. You know, I don't know, but I think we're past that, you know? We're past that at this point. We are adults. This is not second grade where, "Ooh, I don't want to be a tattletale." And I've had this conversation with a lot of my coaching clients. If you are being discriminated against, if you are being dealt with racism, like, blatant, flat-out, direct to you racism, you've got to figure out a way to call people out and hold them accountable. It's not okay. And don't be worried about telling on folks. Like, we're grown as hell, and if this person is in the way of you doing your job, like, you've got to speak up because that's only going to hurt you in the long run. So thank y'all for listening to my rant. Like I said, I don't have the answers. I think that I just want to see so much more for us and how we're treated in the workplace because, you know, our companies, your company, it needs you even more than you need them. So for those of you that might be feeling discouraged, you know, or feeling unseen, feeling unheard right now at work, just know that we see you. Like, we see you, and if you ever feel discouraged, you feel like you just can't go on, like, tweet me. Hit me up. I don't know how I can fully support, but I'm in your corner. Know that there are a lot of folks that feel the same exact way that you do. I wrote an article on Medium, and the article was about kind of what we're talking about right now, but the article just states to give yourself some grace right now. Like, you are doing the best that you can, and if you need to reschedule meetings, do it. If you need to push back a deadline, do it. And I tell people all the time, like, "We're not saving lives," unless you are, like, a legit doctor, you know? You've got to take care of you first. So I love you guys, and thank you for listening. Have a good night.

On the eighty-second entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about adding your business to your resume or LinkedIn profile. However, there's no "right way" to do this - but there are several things that you should consider. Adding your business can have major pros and cons, so if you're unsure, seek some guidance from a resume writer or career coach. Tristan also plugs our upcoming live interactive weekly webinar series The Access Point - check the link in the show notes for more information!Click here to sign up for The Access Point! Our first live interactive weekly webinar takes place September 15th at 7pm CST.https://bit.ly/3br7ab4Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan, back again to bring you another career tip. Before we get into it, I want to take a moment to plug Living Corporate's new weekly live, interactive webinar called The Access Point, designed to prepare Black and brown college students for the workforce.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀We're bringing on corporate professionals, industry leaders, and top voices to cover topics from self-advocacy and personal branding to respectability politics and building allies, all things that will help aspiring professionals successfully transition from college to corporate.⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀So join the hosts Tiffany Waddell Tate, Mike Yates, Brandon Gordon, and myself every Tuesday starting September 15th at 7 pm CST/8 pm EST. Sign up at the link in the description.Okay, so now that the promo is out of the way, let's talk about adding your business to your resume or LinkedIn profile.Over the last couple of weeks, I've gotten quite a few questions about adding your business to your hiring documents. Unfortunately, there's no clear cut answer to this question, it's more of a matter of personal preference, but there are few things you should consider.First, is there a conflict of interest? If you are doing or offering something in your business that is in direct competition with your potential employer, then you probably don't want to include it in your resume or LinkedIn as this can blow your chances of landing the interview. But be mindful, if you get the role, the ethical thing to do is to disclose what you do in your business. This can have various outcomes from conversations discussing how to navigate any potential conflicts of interest all the way to the need for you to choose between your job and your business.The other thing to consider is that even if it isn't a conflict of interest, some companies and organizations may consider your business a distraction or competing priority, making them less likely to consider you for the role. For me, I think that's a great screening tool. When I am looking for a new role, I want to show up fully as me, which includes being a business owner. If a company or organization doesn't like that, then they more than likely wouldn't be the right fit for me. Also, it's highly likely that someone in the company will find out about your business at some point, so being upfront can reduce some of the stress on the backend of trying to hide it.Another thing you might want to consider is, does your business showcase a skillset not already represented on your resume or LinkedIn? If the answer is yes, then it may be something you want to consider adding, but in doing so, make sure to focus solely on what's relevant and leave the rest out.As you can see, there is no one right answer. Adding your business can have major pros and cons, so if you're unsure, seek some guidance from a resume writer or career coach.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach chats with award-winning marketing professional and author Frederick Joseph about marketing, white supremacy, and capitalism in this wide-ranging interview. Frederick speaks a bit about the nuances of white supremacy, particularly its function in the space that he inhabits, touches on his upcoming book The Black Friend, and so much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Frederick - you can pre-order The Black Friend on a variety of platforms!Connect with Frederick on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. You can find out more about (and pre-order!) his upcoming book, The Black Friend, on a variety of platforms.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we're doing. Every single week we're having a really good conversation, or I would think it's a pretty good conversation--yeah, your feedback says they're pretty good conversations--insightful discussions, real talk in a corporate world, with Black and brown influencers, thought leaders, elected officials, executives, entrepreneurs, social influencers, activists, you know, professors, educators, public servants, and I'm just really proud of this platform. I think we're in a point of time where people are really starved for content that centers and amplifies marginalized or historically oppressed voices and experiences, and Living Corporate has been doing that for over two years, and we've been doing that by having conversations every single week with the aforementioned folks that I just shared, and this week is no different because we actually have an incredible guest, someone actually that I really just met personally, but I've been following his work for a while - Frederick T. Joseph. Frederick is an award-winning marketing professional, activist, philanthropist, and author of an upcoming highly anticipated book "The Black Friend" with over 10 years of marketing experience, and a Forbes Under 30 list maker for Marketing and Advertising. He is also the sole creator of the largest GoFundMe campaign in history, the #BlackPantherChallenge, which ultimately generated over $43 million dollars in earned advertising and media for Disney and raised over $950K and allowed more than 75,000 children worldwide to see 'Black Panther’ for free. So I don't know if y'all remember, like, when the kids, you know, like, he was dancing on the [table], and he was like, "Ayyyyye." Like, that's part of that--you know, that was this person that we're about to talk to. Anyway, so he is also the creator of the largest individual COVID-19 support effort, the #RentRelief campaign, which has raised over $1 million dollars. Frederick has been honored as the 2018 Comic-Con Humanitarian of the Year award and a member of the 2018 Root 100 list of Most Influential African Americans. He was also a national surrogate for the Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders campaigns. Frederick consistently writes about marketing, culture, and politics for the Huffington Post, USA Today, NowThisNews, The Independent, amongst others, and is a current contributor at AdWeek. Fred, welcome to the show, man.Frederick: What's going on, man? It's a pleasure to be here, and I should've definitely sent you a shorter bio, but I appreciate you showing the love though.Zach: Nah, it's cool. I mean, you got, like, a short Iliad. I wanted to make sure I give it just due. Not a simple question - how are you doing these days?Frederick: Man... you know, life is what it is. I think that, you know, I'm Black in America. That's how I'm doing. How about you?Zach: Exactly. I think it's interesting too. I've had folks ask me how I'm doing. "I can't imagine how you feel. And I try to explain to folks, you know, the reality is I don't feel any better or worse than I do on most days, you know what I mean?Frederick: Yeah. I mean, that's the reality of it. I'm in the exact same position as you, man.Zach: You know what I mean? I'm Black in America. I'm conscious of the way that this country and this world is set up to be, largely against me even existing. So it's interesting though that we're in this point I think where we're seeing such massive uprisings, and white people are really leaning in. Like, I just saw--so we're recording this on July 26th, and so just last night I just saw protests in Portland, right, and they're, like, screaming "Black Lives Matter," and it's a lot of people out there, and it's a lot of people that are not us out there.Frederick: Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting. Definitely in some of the whitest places in the country we're seeing that.Zach: Well, let's do this. Let's get into it, man. Why marketing? Why is marketing the space you chose to engage as a career? Like, I've seen what you're doing in the space, but I'm curious, like, what got you there.Frederick: Um, it was the only space that made sense. I was on the trajectory of becoming an attorney. I think that's, like, kind of, for a lot of Black families if you become an attorney, a doctor, a [?], so on and so forth, you've made it, but for me I was, you know, the first one to go to college really, and when I went I had all these passions and interests from music to writing to art, so on and so forth, and I was trying to actually figure out what could I incorporate all of my interests into, and I realized that marketing, when done well, is really just story-telling, right? And to be a great marketer you have to be multi-faceted. So it just kind of made sense to me.Zach: And to your point about being multi-faceted, as I read your bio, right, you have a lot of things going on. Like, talk to me about how that space lent itself into the book that you're working on.Frederick: Yeah. So that's been interesting because when you're a marketer--like, I'm of the firm belief that every single thing in this world is driven by marketing, driven by branding and advertising, right? Like, you know, whether it be Trump or Obama or some of the worst people in history, it was just a matter of how their story was told and how they branded themselves, right? And that's just the nature of how that works, you know? You go see a movie, you listen to an album, you buy food all based on how somebody was able to make you believe in it. So for me in terms of my book coming out, it's a really interesting thing because all I'm really doing in the book is trying to market to people who are young, like, as to why they should reassess race and, you know, essentially work towards being anti-racist, and now I'm partnering with my publisher to figure out the actual marketing campaign for "How do you make young people be anti-racist?" You know? [laughs] So yeah, it's been interesting.Zach: Let's talk about white supremacy and how it functions in marketing even now. When people talk about white supremacy, often times we think about KKK, burning crosses, hard R 'N' word, but can we talk a little bit about, like, the nuances of white supremacy and its function in, like, the space that you inhabit, which is largely marketing?Frederick: Yeah. So I'm actually happy that's something you want to talk about, because as a matter of fact that's what my book is about, right? People don't understand that white supremacy and racism are so nuanced they exist in every facet of what we do on a daily basis, from something as simple as an interaction on an elevator, right? Like, it's me getting in the elevator in my building where I pay my rent, and people assume that I'm a delivery person, though I've lived here for over a year. In the workplace, and specifically in marketing, I actually think is one of the industries in which racism and white supremacy are most prevalent because it dictates what we see and what we ingest, right, like, as humans. So often times, I mean, marketing as an industry and advertising are extremely white. I think the numbers, if I remember correctly, was, like, 75% white people. So what does that mean for what you end up seeing, right? It's like... let's take Black Panther as a really good example. When I looked at the marketing team for Black Panther, this, like, super pro-Black, afro-futuristic content, the entire marketing team that worked on it from Disney that was, like, on their website was white. [laughs] And while that did do very well obviously, it's like... how is it that we don't even get to craft how we story-tell around narratives, right? And that's the reality. So, like, even if you're watching something like the NBA, most of the ways in which the NBA is pitched to us as people is through a white lens, white gaze, which is why we see something like--right now the marketing team for the NBA said, "Hey, you know what we should do? We should put Black Lives Matter on the courts in the bubble, and we should also put Breonna Taylor and these things, these names, on jerseys," and that's all marketing, but there's never the actual substance of, like, "Hey, actually, maybe if we got some more Black people from different experiences in the room, someone might say, like, "Oh, well, what about making systemic change?" Like, "What about not doing something that's performative? What about us actually using our cache, our narrative, our platform, to actually make change?" Like, if I was in that room I would say, "Well, that's cool and all, but if we actually built our marketing around creating a program where we send scouts to HBCUs, right, and start actually recruiting Black talent from Black schools, which could create systemic change where more young Black people would go play at HBCUs, which puts more dollars in the Black community and brings more cache to those schools. Right? [both laugh]Zach: Right. It was interesting to your point, right. So I'm looking at it, right, and we can talk a little bit about, like, the memeification of Breonna Taylor, and I'd like to get your opinion on that, but when you see these things and, like, it seems like we like to get in this, like, awareness loop. Like, we just talk about awareness over and over and over. So, like, if we just talk about it long enough, things will magically change. But, like, it's interesting because, like, that approach has never shown itself useful in any other endeavor, and when you look at the government and how--like, when we talk about making systemic change in other ways we pass laws. We create policies. Right? Like, we hold trials. There are, like, tangible things that we know that we do to actually move the needle in a real way, and so what I've appreciated is I've been seeing, like, the postgame and, like, LeBron has talked about it and other NBA players have been like, "Look, I'm only talking about Breonna Taylor," which I think is--that's admirable, right, to a degree. Like, I'm not shading that at all, and what I'm looking for, to your point, is like, "Okay, now at what point do we, like, move to, again, tangible solutions?" You know what I mean?Frederick: Yeah. No, that's exactly it. Tangible solutions, systemic change, because as you said, you know, it's not even just--it's a memeification of Breonna Taylor and really a memeification of, like, Black bodies as a whole, right? And that's what I'm saying, right? Like, every day people are posting this witty ways of saying, "Oh, we should have justice for Breonna Taylor." Like, I saw yesterday it was, like, in alphabet soup. I'm like, "Uh..." It's extremely weird, and it would only happen with Black people to be quite frank. I mean, like, let's be real. Let's look at somebody like the case around JonBenet Ramsey, right, the little girl who went missing, right? There was never a singular moment where that was turned into a global pun, right, and they still were looking for that little girl. They did not stop looking, and I think they still have content that comes out about looking for. They reopened the case for, like, the fifth time I think, like, two years ago. You know, we are the only ones where our Black bodies, like, our Black existence is commodified and turned into entertainment and turned into ROI, right? Zach: Right. Like, there are financial reasons, right? It's part of the capitalistic system we live in. It literally pays to talk about Black Lives Matter right now, right? Like, it gives you returns to, like--if I put #BlackLivesMatter in my social media--and it's easy. It's relatively easy for me to do that compared to me really investigating and examining, again, my own organization's policies, practicies, procedures, and institutions that drive or support white supremacy, like, within my own organizational walls. And so then, like, I think about--so there have been some cities that have been painting roads Black Lives Matter and making streets called Black Lives Matter. I'm like, "Y'all's own police forces have open investigations. There's unsolved murders." Like, there's all types of things that are happening, and so it gets to the point where it's almost--not almost, like, it is just gaslighting, you know? 'Cause we're not taking this serious, and we're still somehow, even in this moment, sidestepping the very real problem of the brutalization of Black and brown people.Frederick: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And to the point of, you know, painting Black Lives Matter on things, so on and so forth... in every major city where Black people live there's a Malcolm X Boulevard, there's a Martin Luther King Way, there's a James Baldwin this and a bell hooks that, and those are actually, like, sadly some of the worst streets in the areas of all of those cities, right? So we've already seen that performative isn't actually doing anything, right? Like, we've absolutely seen that, but again, there is a return on investment. It is dollar-making for cities, football teams, individuals to put up something that is aligned with Black Lives Matter? Why? As is often said, Black people and our buying power is, you know, on par with some of the larger countries in the world. So let's just be real here.Zach: I mean, yeah, 100% I mean, we alluded to it a little bit earlier. You know that we're seeing federal and state police forces and harm and murder civilians en masse on camera. We wouldn't even really know about these things without social media. So, you know, you and I, a little bit of tea, we met through an influencer event hosted by Twitter, right? And I would love to hear more about your perspective on how the Twitters, Facebooks and Reddits of the world, the role that they play in protecting basic human dignity and freedoms and, like, what all they could and should be doing in this moment.Frederick: Yeah. Well, you know, one, I'm happy that you called that out because I think that we have gone from a moment or a period of time where these platforms, the Facebooks, the Reddits, the Twitters, are that, right, they're platforms. They're no longer platforms. They're actually worlds now, and that's what these companies wanted them to traject towards. They wanted them to traject towards small worlds where people exist on them, whether as their actual selves or their other selves, whatever, they exist on them in real time. They breathe on them. They sleep on them. They eat on them, right? And therefore you can also be lost on them and be lost because of them, and you can also be saved, right, and I think that we saw that case with Toyin, right? We saw that Toyin was someone who had existed on and off the platform, Twitter, for quite some time, someone who came on Twitter and sought help. Now, Twitter has built itself to have various tools and various rules around how they stifle or amplify certain voices and moments. In terms of stifling, you can say the 'N' word for instance and be suspended from Twitter. I've seen it happen. It's happened to me. But they don't have things in palce to actually help people, right? In our real world, right, you can't try to recreate the real world online for your own capitalistic gain but not have the tools or the resources to support the people who are existing on these spaces. So I think that is one issue that I've seen that these companies and these platforms could do a great deal around. You know, I know the role that these platforms play. I just struggle with what we should expect from them, because at the end of the day, you know, these things are owned by white men for the most part, and white men are gonna be a white men. And that's a long-winded answer, but--Zach: So I think my follow-up to that is, like, we know that Black people specifically, right--like, I could say BIPOC, but I want to say Black people specifically. We know that Black people really make social media what it is, right? Like, we are the engine and the spice and everything else that really makes social media dope, and so I guess my question is, like, do you think the reason why Black voices are promoted and have grown and kind of, like, been the influencer and shaker that we are, do you think that's because of capitalism? Do you think that the ecosystem would be the same without capitalism?Frederick: I don't, and that's because of the history of Black people globally, right? Like, every turn in our history, except for when we were left alone, which was long before most history books can date, we have been leveraged because of some type of capitalistic or imperialistic agenda, right? So right now we are [?], whether that be on Black Twitter or on Instagram or on Facebook, right? I think that the only one we probably don't have that cache on is probably, like, Reddit, 'cause white supremacy owns Reddit for the most part. Like, we are the reason the United States and every facet of it is the United States, from the good, the bad and the ugly, right? We are the reason that most of the world is the way that it is. We are the influencing, driving force behind music, art, just every single thing to do with culture, but we've never reaped any of the benefits of that. So I do think that if capitalism didn't exist though, I don't think that it would be the same. I do think that we'd be much happier in our own space doing the same things amongst each other, but in terms of the influence globally? No, I don't think so, but I don't know if our global influence anyway matters if we haven't been benefiting from it.Zach: I agree with that. Yeah, and I appreciate you answering the question, because I've been thinking about it. I appreciate the fact that we have the influence, but it's like... it gets increasingly exhausting to see us have all this influence just for it to get monetized by everybody else, you know what I mean?Frederick: Right. To the point of the Twitter conversation that you were mentioning, you know, I talked about a lot of things in that conversation, and I think one of the things I mentioned that was a real criticism of capitalism and platforms was when I said, you know, for instance #BlackPantherChallenge, I made a joke, like, "Oh, yeah, Twitter was touting it, but at events I wasn't even invited to." [?] me caring about that, wanting to go to events, as moreso a criticism of how we operate around Black lives and Black work, but in that, you know, hours later you had a Black person from Twitter attacking me saying that, like, I don't care about anything but being invited to parties or something like that.Zach: It's the principle though, and I think it's interesting that you bring that up because I had a colleague, you know, and I had been doing some work around--so, look, Living Corporate has been around for a second, so I do this work in, like, creating digital media, creating different types of thought leadership around what does it really mean to drive diversity, equity and inclusion programs, right? So I had a colleague who was like, "Yeah, you know, I've been taking this and presenting this at Such-and-such," and I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I appreciate the fact that you've been taking it and it speaks to you, but if you're going to speak on work that you didn't create, you should at the very least let me know and give me an opportunity to speak to it myself since I'm the person who created it. And again, it's not about me getting the accolades or me getting paid per se, it's just respect. It's respect and courtesy for the people that, like, honor the creators, honor the people who did the work to lead something and give them the space. Like, don't pick and choose your own token representatives, and certainly don't center and place yourself as a representative. That's not cool. So yeah, that resonates with me, 'cause I think that nuance is often times lost in these moments, and I think that, for whatever reason, it can be hard for people to understand the principle of recognition and what real inclusion means, especially if it means that they have to, like, de-center themselves, you know what I mean?Frederick: Absolutely. It's something that I've had to also learn, right? Like, how do you step back to make sure that people are fully seen or give them the opportunity to be seen, right, if they want to, right? And I think that, again, we do it to ourselves. Like, we do it to other Black people. It's a conditioning thing, and it's absolutely rooted in white supremacy because, you know, white supremacy is at the center of every little thing wrong with society as a whole and always has been, right? Zach: Right. It's a scarcity mindset, man. It's like, you know, I think it's a core function of capitalism as well. It's not only production but consumption too. So it's like, "I gotta just take, take, take, and if I'm not the one taking it, then it's not real," or "If I'm giving it away, that's a loss to me." But, like, that's not an abundance mindset. It's literally the opposite of that.Frederick: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. And it's funny, 'cause I'm working on something right now, a second book called Black Under Trump, and, you know, that proposal went out, and I've noticed that you can tell a lot about engagements online. Like, you can tell a lot about who engages with you and how people engage and who shares what and who sees what, because--you know, you've looked at metrics before. You see impressions versus actual engagement, and one of the things that I notice is when I'm talking about my wins, right, when I'm talking about--my first book, when I announced that everyone was like, "Oh, congrats! This, that and the third!" And I'm like, "Well, I'm working on a second and third," and it's kind of like everybody was like, "Oh, no, to hell with that. You've had yours," right? And I'm like, "Oh, where did everybody go?" Right? And I realize--you know, 'cause most of my followers are Black people and people of color, I'm like, "Oh, it's because people think that there can only be one," right? This Highlander idea, the scarcity mindset.Zach: It's scary because it's like, if you would just pause and think about how little content there is out there that really centers and amplifies us, you would not be so--I mean, I hope you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss or, like, fight over crumbs. Like, we take up so little of the narrative, right, we take up so little of the space when it comes to our perspectives, our lived experience, our frustrations, our passions, our joys. I want to pivot that into my next question, which is what role do you imagine independent Black and brown media will take in this new decade, right? So, like, do you think it's gonna increase? Do you think it's gonna decrease? Do you think it's gonna stay the same? And why?Frederick: Now, do you mean media in the traditional sense or media as in, like, if you have a certain following you're also considered media.Zach: That's a good question. I'm thinking media more in the traditional sense, so thinking about platforms. But let's also extend it out to individuals, 'cause I do think that that's gonna continue to be a budding space.Frederick: You know, it's interesting because one of the things that I've learned--I think this year, in 2020, I've become a lot more radical, especially as I was on the campaign trail for these different presidential candidates, and in this year I've realized how different Black people are, right? I've always said Blackness is not a monolith, and I've always meant it, but I just never realized how big that spectrum was, because you have Black people who are from where I'm from--you know, I'm from the projects in Yonkers, New York, and I come from nothing, and I'm happy to have anything that I have now, and that is a lot different from a Black person who is fourth-generation, you know, college and fourth-generation [?], you know, Kappa Alpha Psi, so on and so forth, and in that what I'm struggling with now is when I think of Blackness in terms of, like, that question, right, like, "What role does Black media play?" Like, to be honest, I don't know because I don't know what type of Black people are at these different places, right? I don't know. Like, when I look at The Root, I know some of the people there, and there's a lot of them who, like, I deeply respect, and then there's also some of them I've met and I'm like, "Oh, wow. Oh, okay." Or there's Black outlets like Shade Room, and I'm like, "Oh, wow." You know? So I think that because of that spectrum, because of us not being a monolith, I deeply struggle with knowing what our place should be because sometimes I think some of us should have less of a place on the forefront, to be frank, and that means, like, some of our own platforms that we have currently.Zach: Yes. Well, expound upon that a little bit.Frederick: So I'll just be pretty direct. I think that there are groups, platforms, media outlets, so on and so forth, even individuals, who are highly platformed, highly powerful, and I hope every single day that in the next 10 years that their place amongst the epicenter of Blackness and visible Blackness is reduced, frankly. I hope that if any outlets are getting pushed, anyone, platform, so on and so forth, I hope that it's people with a lens to the more--I wouldn't even call it radical, but the more progressive, inclusive, liberating front.Zach: You know, it's interesting. I've talked about Living Corporate as a platform, and I would say, like, 99.9% of the people are like, "Oh, that's dope," because I come from a similar background as you, right? Like, I'm first-generation in a few different ways, and I'm not, like you said, fourth-generation college and whatever. Like, that's just not my story. That's not my background. My people came up poor, you know what I mean? But then I have met folks whose parents were, you know, a little elitist, and I think about the fact that there's--it's interesting how those voices end up being the representation in, like, major platforms for everybody, you know what I mean?Frederick: Absolutely.Zach: And that's something we don't talk about a lot, like, out loud, but it's true. So you see these people and they're like, "Man, that's a weird take," and I'm not saying that's your perspective, but it's certainly not mine or anybody's in the spaces that I move around in. Again, I am one person. But when I think about, like, kind of how white supremacy works in that way too, how it kind of will gravitate to these Black voices that are not really radical or that are not progressive, who are not much more politically left than they are, or just focused on Black liberation, and it's interesting how, like, you end up kind of just switching faces at the top, but you're not really focused on, like, dismantling anything, you know what I mean?Frederick: Right. White supremacy gravitates towards Black people who will do just enough to make white supremacy to feel like it's coming down when it's actually not. 100%. And that becomes very, like, confusing for me, and it's something that, again, this year I have struggled deeply with. You know, you and I follow each other and we see the things we say and have worked on. I love my people, and I do everything that I can for my people, you know, to exhaustion, and even that night at the Twitter thing or whatever, like, it broke my heart. The next day was Juneteenth, and I cried at one point because I was just like, "I can't believe my own people view me in this way and are doing this to me," right? And that's how I feel on a regular basis, whether it be BlackPantherChallenge or CaptainMarvelChallenge or whatever it is. I often find that my lens being liberation-focused and being very attuned to the movements of white supremacy ends up ostracizing me, and the only people who I end up getting support from are either really radical Black people or, like, to be honest with you white people, and that makes me really, really sad. Even my book cover reveal next week and my pre-order launch, I already know in the back of my head, like, "Oh, I don't think Black people are gonna buy my book." I don't think Black people are gonna support me because, like, I've never really seen Black people support me before. And that's not our fault, that's white supremacy, but it hurts.Zach: Right, 100%. Before we get up out of here, any parting words or shout-outs as we think about where we're at, where we've yet to really arrive to? I think about the fact that we're recording this, like I said, in late July. We have one of the most consequential elections in our lifetimes during a very unique season, like, a weird confluence of events between one of the worst economic crises that we've had for almost 100 years, a global pandemic, and global protests focused on anti-racism. I mean, like, what are some things you'd like to just leave the folks with?Frederick: Well, I think the first thing is something that you said that was a very powerful quote when you and I were talking some weeks ago, when you said, you know, "Black bodies have to be worth something," right? That sat with me and that's real, and it's deep, because I don't think that people understand sometimes that we could pile up the Black bodies lost to the Moon, right, while we've been in this fight for resistance and justice since we were brought over to these shores, right? Another thing is when people are upholding certain things, you're only upholding things that are founded on the bones that you think that they're not, right? You know, people are talking about, "Oh, I'm gonna get this role as VP of this company." Yeah, well, I mean, your ancestor's bones are in those walls, so let's just be real about this, right? You're not actually getting anything that you didn't already die for a million times. So that being said, I guess the last thing I'll leave people with is stop settling. Stop settling for the gaslighting that America has put us through in thinking that not being oppressed in some ways makes up for still being oppressed in others, right? Like, Donald Trump is a symptom of a much larger condition, and getting him out of office, whether it was gonna be Bernie, Elizabeth, or Biden or whoever else, we are still left with those same conditions, so unless we are going to work on the conditions and how we got here we will end up with another Trump in our children's lifetimes or our children's children's lifetimes, and that's the reality of the moment that we're in. Stop settling.Zach: I love it. Frederick, man, I appreciate you taking the time to be on Living Corporate. Y'all know what we're doing, right? This has been another episode of Living Corporate. We have conversations like this every single week - on Tuesdays, just a reminder, 'cause for those who this is their first time listening, every single Tuesday we have conversations like this, one-on-one deep dives with an incredible Black or brown person or an aspirational ally, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips. Those are, like, quick career tips, and then on Saturdays we either have an extended career conversation with Latesha Byrd or we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger when we talk with a Black or brown person about the technical aspects of their job so that y'all can understand that we exist all over corporate America and we actually operate and do very well when we are given opportunities or we create opportunities for ourselves. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Living-corporate, or just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up, okay? We're on all the browsers. Make sure you share this with your friends. Make sure you check out the links in the show notes. Preorder Frederick Joseph's book and check out his website. Until next time, y'all. Peace.

On the nineteenth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Sha'Ron James, an insurance professional with nearly two decades of experience providing forward thinking, strategic and regulatory advice to clients on a number of business and economic development matters. Sha'Ron talks a bit about her unique role as an insurance regulator, her career journey up to this point, and offers some advice for people who are interested in making the jump into the insurance industry.Click here to sign up for The Access Point! Our first live interactive weekly webinar takes place September 15th at 7pm CST.Connect with Sha'Ron on LinkedIn and Twitter.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTAmy: Sha'Ron, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?Sha'Ron: I'm great. Thank you for having me.Amy: I am so excited to talk to you today because you have a job that most people don't even know exists. So just, yeah, tell us about what it is, your role in the insurance industry.Sha'Ron: Well, Amy, my role in the insurance industry I think is somewhat unique in that I spent the past decade or so as an insurance regulator. And so as an insurance regulator, I was responsible for ensuring that insurance companies maintain the promise that they make to policy holders. And I did that in two different roles that I can share a little bit more about. But just again, in its most basic form as a regulator, I was responsible for ensuring that insurance companies maintain their promise to policy holders.Amy: And that means a couple of different things, right? Because it means on the one hand that they're not denying claims that they should be paying. Absolutely. But on the other hand, it also means that you have a hand in making thing, making sure that these companies are holding enough money back in reserve so that they're going to be around long enough to pay the claims. So can you talk a little bit about what that means?Sha'Ron: Yes. So during my time in state government in the state of Florida was with the Department of Financial Services. In other parts of the country it's different offices of insurance regulation. So I held two roles. Both of them were somewhat unique, but played a really important role in ensuring, again, that that promise was kept. So I spent about six years as the director of the division of rehabilitation and liquidation, which is the division within state government that takes over insurance companies that become financially insolvent. So when our insurance commissioner determines that an insurance company doesn't have the financial wherewithal to pay the claims as they become due, that referral was then made to my division, and I led a team of about 120 people that would oversee the takeover of an insurance carrier. We would run off the claims and transition policy holders to more vibrant financially solvent insurance companies. And then we would also sue to recover assets so that those claims could be paid. That was a pretty fascinating role. Really exciting at times, but also somewhat disheartening because there are times when insurance companies aren't able to make good on their promise, and so policy holders are sometimes left holding the bag with unpaid claims and unfulfilled promises. And so it was a very delicate balance to be able to take care of the policy holder while at the same time essentially shut down an active insurance company.Amy: And so for people not in the industry, not in the insurance industry, I think it's important to understand, you know, the, the, the insurance companies make a promise to pay at some point in the future, but they take your premiums up front, right? So you are paying for that promise and it's up to regulators like yourself to make sure that, you know, if you have a long-tail policy, like I think, you know, probably the most common example is, you know, asbestos claims, right? This right, we have people going into buildings, you know, tearing down buildings. We have policies around, you know, their health and safety working for us. And 20 years from now those employees develop lung cancer because they were working with asbestos. Those employees then go to the insurer to collect for medical bills, for pain and suffering. And it's not just that the employer needs to be there to help handle that, but their insurance company is really the backstop for those lawsuits. So if they've invested with an insurance company that's not around 20 years down the road, these folks, these workers then have, are going to struggle to pay their hospital bills. They're going to struggle to be compensated for the damage that their employers caused them. Is that a good summary?Sha'Ron: That's a great summary. And another example that we have run into is in long-term care insurance where again as you mentioned, policyholders are paying premiums for years. And even in the basic, you know, life context, you're paying policy premiums for years in the hope that when there's a trigger, when something happens in life, the life context, if you pass away or are in a long-term care situation, if you have you know, something, a health episode that triggered you using your long-term care insurance, the hope is that that carrier is going to be there and will make good on that. There's also a hope that over time your premiums will not significantly swing, meaning that you may be paying $20 a month and you're told you'll be paying $20 a month for, you know, the next 20 years. But then 10 years in you find out, "Oh, the insurance company needs more money." Now you have to pay $120. And so in other role as a regulator I served as the state insurance consumer advocate. And Florida has a pretty unique position in that--and other states don't have this, but the state insurance consumer advocate represents the insurance buying public in rate cases and in rate hearings. So if a company is looking to increase their rates or introduce new products into the marketplace, I was responsible for weighing in on whether or not that was a good product or a good rate for consumers. And so again, that also was a really interesting perspective given the landscape of the industry, which you and I know, Amy, is really vast and really complex, and so I was grateful to be able to see the industry from both contexts.Amy: And I think that's an interesting perspective too because there's a balancing act there for people who are unfamiliar with this is you want the insurers to get enough of a rate, right? Enough premium to remain solvent, to pay all of their claims to do all of the work that they need to do. Right? So they have to have enough money coming in, but on the flip of that coin, you don't want them to have rates that are so high that they're gouging their policyholders.Sha'Ron: Absolutely. Rates cannot be excessive. And they have to be justified and they can't be discriminatory. And so those terms to a lay person seem pretty simple, excessive, you know, fair. Non-discriminatory, but all of those terms that make up how a regulator evaluates a rate- in reality, it's really complicated. And again, there are a lot of people, in terms of the team, that really participate in that analysis. So you have an actuary, you have lawyers, you have analysts. And there are so many factors that go into whether or not the rate can be justified. And so again, like you said, you want to make sure that the rate is adequate so that insurance companies have enough money to pay the claims, but you want to make sure that policy holders aren't being treated unfairly, being charged too much, or, in the context of issues about discriminatory rates, you want to make sure that insurance companies aren't taking certain risk factors and kind of extrapolating that risk factor across a broad swath of people. So when you look at zip coding, you look at, you know, race, ethnicity, geography, age, you want to make sure again, that large groups of policy holders aren't being treated unfairly based upon certain certain rating factors, Amy: Right. Because insurance is all about discrimination, right? In the purest sense of the word, right? Higher risk individuals, companies should pay higher premiums because they're more likely to have a claim or to cause a claim. But then, you know, again, there's this balancing act, because in the United States we know that, you know, you can pretty much use zip code as a proxy for race. So, you know, when an insurer says, "Where's the zip code where your car is parked at night," right? You have to make sure that that's really relevant to the property risk of the car and not "We're charging black customers more."Sha'Ron: Absolutely. Absolutely, and similar conversations take place around data and insurance companies' use of, you know, what we call big data and how they capture data and use data for policy holders. So again, all of this is just really to me, very fascinating and very impactful. So again, as you look at the broadness of the industry, the role of a regulator is very important, and it's sometimes often missed when we talk about insurance professionals. Amy: Absolutely. And so that leads me to my next question, which is how did you get into this role? Because I'm guessing this wasn't something that you thought about, you know, when you were in high school or college and said, "Oh, someday I'm going to regulate insurance in Florida," which might be the most complicated job in the world by the way, because Florida has the most regulations of any state.Sha'Ron: Absolutely, and the most risk.Amy: How did you find yourself in that role?Sha'Ron: It was an interesting path, and I think, like most of my fellow insurance professionals that I have relationships with and I've talked with, it wasn't a direct path. It wasn't something that I dreamed about. So I am a lawyer by trade and training, and so I was practicing law with a firm and my practice was primarily--it started as primarily a real estate transactional practice during the height of the real estate market. So I was doing real estate closings and litigation, and my practice shifted away from real estate transactional practice to more of a bankruptcy practice. Because a lot of developers, contractors, banks were--people, you know, just in general were being hit hard when the bubble burst. So my practice in law shifted to bankruptcy, and an opportunity became available in state government to become a part of the division I mentioned, the division of rehab and liquidation, which really is akin to bankruptcy. Essentially it is placing an insurance company into quote-unquote bankruptcy, and because of how companies are regulated--they're regulated at the state level versus the federal level, and so the state oversees that, the takedown, and the unwinding of an insurance company. So my bankruptcy background and my legal background I think was very important in me landing this new role. And also, you know, frankly it was good for me in terms of work-life balance because at that time I had a new child. My daughter's 12 now. It was a good fit to move from the pressure cooker environment of being in litigation to what I consider a more balanced environment for my family.Amy: I think that's such a great story. And you know, like you said, so many people end up in the insurance industry just by happenstance. What surprised you about the industry or about the role that you were in that you did not expect coming into it? Sha'Ron: I really didn't expect to fall in love with insurance like I have. Amy: I understand. [laughs]Sha'Ron: You know, it's kinda like, I just didn't know enough about it and what I knew about it just didn't seem or sound as we say it, you know, it didn't sound sexy. It didn't sound like something that I would want to be involved in for ever. So I was really surprised by that, and once I got involved--and one of the reasons why I didn't think I would enjoy it as much is I really didn't understand the fact that insurance as an industry is a people-oriented industry. It touches people. And so one of the things outside of, you know, my practice of law is that I'm really passionate about being impactful, really passionate about people, and so I always thought that I can only impact people in the social kind of policy context. So education, criminal justice, you know, I had no idea that this industry was out here that is regulated business, but also impactful towards people. So that's surprised me. And once I really realized and found my niche it's been, you know, me in the industry ever since and I'm really committed to making it the best possible industry it can be, not just for policyholders but for insurance professionals as well.Amy: And you raise such an awesome point, because so many people have this call, right? They want to follow their heart and do something good for their communities, good for the world, and they think in their minds--and I know I felt like this too--that to do something good for the world you have to live on, you know, a very paltry salary. You have to have very little means, right? You know, I know so many people that go into social work because that's where their heart is, and there's nothing at all wrong with that, but by the time you've got a master's degree and now you're making just above minimum wage, right, and you're paying off student loan debt, like, that's a big financial hit. I think it's so important for people to realize you can do a lot of good in the insurance industry but also have a middle class income that's sustainable for your entire career.Sha'Ron: Absolutely. And I'll give you an example, and it really kind of I think illustrates--as you mentioned earlier, the role that Florida plays in insurance, Florida is a high-risk state because of our prevalence for catastrophic hurricanes. And so a couple of years ago in my role as insurance consumer advocate, I had the opportunity unfortunately to be involved in the post-hurricane climate that we were in as a state. And so one day I got a call from a woman who said that her parents who were in their 90s were in their home when one of the hurricanes came through and a tree fell on their house. The great thing was they were not harmed, but the insurance company did not want to total loss the home, although the house had actually moved. And you know, this can get real technical and geeky, but the point is that, you know, I was able to weigh in in my role as insurance consumer advocate and assist them and kind of mediate between them and then the insurance company, educate the policy holder on, you know, things in their policy, but at the same time weigh in with the carrier that, you know, these folks are in their 90s. These are factors that aren't in the policy. They're in their 90s, and, you know, they're good people and it will be a great thing to do. And so I was able to help. And so that's an example of, because of my knowledge of insurance, my knowledge of insurance policies, my relationships in the industry, how something--what I thought was technical and boring term turned into an opportunity to help and to serve. And I think that's really important.

On the eighty-first installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about starting a new job remotely. Since COVID-19 has started many of us began working from home. With more and more companies deciding their workforce will be working from home for the foreseeable future, many new hires will be starting jobs remotely as well. Check out the five tips Tristan suggests to start off on the right foot! Zach also makes a special announcement - click here or the link in the show notes to register for The Access Point, a live interactive weekly webinar that's focused on preparing Black and brown college students and recent graduates for work!Click here to sign up for The Access Point! Our first live interactive weekly webinar takes place September 15th at 7pm CST.https://bit.ly/3br7ab4Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. Today, I want to talk about starting a new job remotely.Since COVID-19 has started many of us began working from home. With more and more companies deciding their workforce will be working from home for the foreseeable future, that means many new hires will be starting jobs remotely as well. This can be a challenge because oftentimes you don’t get to meet your boss and colleagues in person and most of your onboarding process will be self-guided. So here are 5 tips to help you start off on the right foot.First, stay in contact with your manager. Since you aren’t in the office it is much more difficult for your boss to know what’s going on. And you know what they say, out of sight out of mind. That means you need to make yourself and the work you do more visible than you typically would. I suggest setting up regular one-on-ones by video to not only establish your relationship with your boss but to keep them up to date on how onboarding and your work is going.Second, set up time to meet coworkers one-on-one. You don’t want your first communication to be requesting something from them and they don’t even know who you are. Since you don’t have the benefit of just chatting in the hallways of the office try to replace those casual interactions by reaching out to each person on your team with an introductory email and a request to set up a meeting. This can be by video call or it can just be over the phone if everyone is Zoomed out. But you want to make the time to begin developing relationships with your team.Third, don’t be afraid to ask more questions than you normally would. I know oftentimes we shy away from asking too many questions for fear of looking like we don’t know what we’re doing. But that line of thinking is completely wrong in this instance. Asking questions should show your managers that you are engaged and taking ownership of your onboarding and learning process. It may also help them iron out kinks in their virtual onboarding process which will help future new hires.Fourth, if you weren’t assigned a mentor then find one. Identify someone on your team in the same time zone as you that you can establish a good virtual connection with. Ask this person if you can come to them with any questions that you may have over the next couple of weeks. If they say yes, figure out what the best method of communication is for them and make sure to use that method since they’ve graciously agreed to help you.Fifth, set up a dedicated space to work. One of the mistakes that many people make when first working from home is thinking they can just work on the couch or in bed. While tempting, these spaces don’t put you in the right mindset for work and often lead to low productivity. The day before you start, set up your workspace complete with a comfortable chair, a desk, and all the tech your company provided you that way you can spend the first day focused solely on your onboarding.Remember, many companies and organizations are new to remote onboarding and remote work in general. So you probably want to pack your patience as this is an adjustment for all parties involved.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach speaks with Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Nikole Hannah-Jones about the state-sanctioned shooting of Jacob Blake, her personal career journey from the high school newspaper to The New York Times, the opposition she's experienced as director of The 1619 Project, and so much more. Click the links in the show notes to find out more about Nikole and The 1619 Project! Connect with Nikole on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Check out her personal website. Find out more about The 1619 Project by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and yo... look, so every week we have a great guest, and I say this every time, but, like, don't front--who else but us? Like, we drop gems on Living Corporate, right, for the free. Like, y'all don't even pay nothing for this, right? Like, we just be givin' it to y'all weekly, and, you know, I mean, I'm smiling despite the pain I'm feeling, the frustration--you know, for those who follow me on LinkedIn or whatever, like, I had to let some things go 'cause I was just upset. I still have some stuff to say, but I'ma wait on it. I'ma wait on it for a couple more months, but that day is soon coming. But anyway, that's a story for another time. [laughs] Look, even with all the pain and frustration that's going on right now with the continuous brutalization of Black bodies in both white America at large and corporate America specifically, their just slough-footed shuffle in not really addressing systemic inequity. I'm excited. I'm excited about the guest that we were able to have, that was able to grace our platform, our flagship show Living Corporate today, and the guest we have is Nikole Hannah-Jones. Now, look, I'm not gonna go into some long biography of Nikole Hannah-Jones, also known as Ida Bae Wells, is one of those most prolific writers of our time. Shout-out to Black women. She holds it down. She advocates and speaks to the reality and lived experience, the historicity, of our struggle, and she's one of the people. She comes from--you'll hear in the interview, but she comes from a similar just, like, humble background that I do and doesn't tolerate disrespect similar to how I don't tolerate disrespect, so we just vibe on a certain level. I appreciated our conversation. The next thing you're gonna hear is the discussion, the interview, that I had with Ms. Hannah-Jones. Make sure that you listen to the whole thing, make sure that you check out the show notes, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.Zach: Nikole, welcome to the show. To say this is an honor would be an understatement, and I recognize, especially today, this is a loaded question, but how are you?Nikole: Hm. Thanks for having me on the show and for your persistence. You know, I'm fine. This is a hard time to be in. It's always a hard time to be Black in this country, and I am more blessed than most, so I'm just trying to maintain perspective.Zach: Yeah. With that in mind, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about the state-sanctioned shooting of Jacob Blake. Of course I have some questions about your work specifically and The 1619 Project, but I'd like to get your perspective on just the historically cyclical nature of violence against Black bodies and, like, in this moment, what if anything do you think can happen to break this centuries-long pattern?Nikole: You know, a few months ago I was feeling a tinge of something that is very unusual for me, which was a slight tinge of hope, and that is gone, and there's a reason I don't often feel it. So I just looked at some data, and despite months of protests, despite all of the back to back media coverage following George Floyd, despite corporations having a so-called "come to Jesus" moment, the stats on police-involved killings have not changed. We are seeing just as many people killed by police in the first half of this year as we saw last year, and I don't know what can force this country to change practices that have been 400 years in the making. In this moment where we know everyone is recording, where there's been months of protests against police violence, that an officer would, in the public view, grab a man who was not fighting him whatsoever and shoot him in the back seven times, it's extremely discouraging, because you would think--at least in this moment--there would be more care and more fear of consequences of treating Black people like they're still in slavery and like their lives don't matter, but we're not seeing that, and it's hard.Zach: Yeah. You know, I think about the fact that--I'm a fairly new father myself, so I have a 5-month old daughter, and I think about the fact that he was shot seven times in the back in front of his three kids in his car, and I was holding my daughter at the time--or rather I was splitting time, so I was cooking and I was feeding my daughter and I just so happened to look at my phone and see that, and then just, you know, I looked at Emory and I just started crying, 'cause I was just, like, this is--just the inhumanity of it... anyway, I'm really curious as we continue forward because I think this project and the work that you do, that you continue to do--thank you for your work, by the way, bless you for that--is just highlighting how inhumanely we've been treating, 'cause there's no way that you just treat human beings like this. And, you know, speaking of the work, I've read stories about editorial bias and how Black journalists will stop submitting certain stories that center Black people because they keep getting shot down or any, you know, Black or brown people. Your work beautifully and tragically captures our stories and experiences, and I'm curious what the internal journey has been like for you to find your voice, and then how long it took before your pitched stories started getting greenlit by different editorial powers that be?Nikole: Yeah, so I started writing about Black people as a high school journalist. That's why I joined my high school newspaper. I had a column called "From the African Perspective," and I joined my high school newspaper because--if your listeners know my story at all, they'll know I was bused into white schools as part of a voluntary desegregation order starting in the second grade, and as a high school student at a predominantly white high school where most of the Black kids were bused from the Black side of town, I knew even then that we were being left out of the story and the power of you shaping the narratives for your own communities, and the only reason I ever wanted to be a journalist was to write about Black folks, period. I was interested--I'm a news junkie in general, I'm interested in the news, I've always read the news, I used to read the paper with my father--I wanted to be a journalist to write about Black folks, and there were--when I started my career I had an excellent editor who encouraged me and supported me in wanting to write. I was an education reporter and I was writing a lot about school segregation and school inequality and disparate discipline that Black students were facing, and I was encouraged to do that. My next job was not the case, and I was penalized and punished for writing about Black stories or people of color in general and was told really that it was showing my bias, that these stories were not reflective of the readership of the newspaper, and had story idea after story idea killed. And this was during the historic Obama run for the presidency, so if you can't be encouraged to write about race when the first Black man has a chance to be president, when would be the right time? And I remember I would pitch these stories and my editors would say, "No, that's not a story," and then I'd see a story almost just like what I had pitched run in The New York Times and I'd be like, "Okay, it's not that I don't have good ideas, it's that they're not interested in this coverage," and I nearly left journalism. I was stuck. This was at a time when the journalism industry was in a death spiral. Newspapers were laying off all over the country, and so there wasn't another job to be had. Like, if you had a job you'd better keep it, and I was so depressed because that's what I got into journalism to do, and I considered leaving the industry, and the only reason I didn't leave the industry is because I just couldn't think of anything else I wanted to do with my life. I'd wanted to be a journalist since I was in high school and really felt journalism was my mission. Luckily I was rescued when I was recruited to come to ProPublica, and I remember when Steve Engelberg, who's the editor of ProPublica, asked me to interview and then ultimately offered me the job, I had a very honest conversation with him and I was like, "If I cannot tell these stories, I don't want to come. Like, I'm not gonna jump from this job to another job where I'm punished for wanting to write about race." He assured me that I wouldn't be, and I wasn't, and so ProPublica was really the place where I was able to develop the style of writing that I've become known for.Zach: To your point, like, with ProPublica and now, you know, the New York Times, I'm curious to know what it's like to write and work with an institution that publishes pieces and projects like The 1619 Project but then also has puff pieces about Trump supporters and then editorial pieces like Tom Cotton's. Like, I'm curious, is there any duality there that you have to straddle or frustrations that you have to manage? Nikole: Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question because of course, right? [laughs] I mean, this is the nature of Black folks working in any white institution. It is the reality of Black people in America. There's always a duality, and yes, you can work at a place that simultaneously will support with every resource a project like The 1619 Project and run the Tom Cotton editorial, and I think we all, as Black and brown and Asian and indigenous people in these white spaces, struggle with trying to produce the work that you think is important and necessary because of the platform. I could certainly work elsewhere, but there's no megaphone like The New York Times. So understanding that platform does something for the work that you're trying to do, but also staying true to who you are and the work you're trying to do and fighting those internal battles to try to bring the actual institution in line with the work that you do. So I have, you know, my outward work that gets published, and then I have my inward work, which is working with other folks to try to push the institution to be better.Zach: And what I find so intriguing about that is, like, it's activism in two fronts, right? Like, you have what everyone sees, and then you have the work that you're doing to push systemic change internally. Can we talk a little bit about portions of white academia's response to The 1619 Project? Like, to an extent I would imagine negativity from members of the GOP as ignorant and dumb and doofy and goofy as they are don't shock you, but has any of it caught you off-guard? Nikole: Yes, of course. So I fully expected that conservatives would not be pleased with The 1619 Project, and I also fully expected--because I studied history for a long time and I understand the field of historiography--that there would be historians that didn't agree with all of our framing or who would quibble with "Why would they put this in? Why did they not put this in? Why did they focus on this and not that?" That was all expected. What I didn't expect was that there would really be an orchestrated campaign, a small group of historians, to not just say, "We wouldn't have done it that way," but to actually try to discredit the project. Because these historians, some of them, are highly respected and regarded, I mean, I've read their work myself, it lended a credibility and really gave those who didn't have good faith criticism of the project, who just didn't want the project to exist, it gave them the meat that they needed, and that's then really disappointing and disconcerting, because the truth is not one, and literally not one, of that small number of historians who opposed the project has never contacted me, ever. They've never said, "Hey, I think you've got this fact wrong," or "Hey, maybe you should change this," which is what you do in a normal circumstance if you feel a reporter has misrepresented something or not got something right. You contact that reporter and ask for that correction. I've never to this day received a single contact, and when the group of five historians who submitted a letter to The New York Times against the project, they included people on that email who weren't even involved--men on that email who weren't even involved with the project, but not me. So I think that speaks to motivations, is what I'll say.Zach: So I was gonna say--and, you know, continually we talk about just the role that Black women play in, like, you know, saving everybody and historically not having the advocacy and support that they need, and to your point around just, like, the misogyny of and presumption that, you know, you're being excluded in your project, and then on top of that being, like, somehow simultaneously being attacked and erased at the same time, right? Like, that's--and my question following up is I would imagine... so first of all, I think, for me, like, in this moment, Nikole, what I've been thinking through and coming to peace with is that it's not that people don't understand or don't see it. A lot of them just don't care, right? So for me, as opposed--I used to get into this thing around, like, trying to educate folks some years ago, and I think I'm just past that, right? I'm curious, like, how do you manage the emotional labor of folks being intentionally obtuse, misogynistic, of course racist. Like, you're so much in the spotlight, and as you continue to flex and grow folks get madder, and so I'm curious as to, like, what does your process look like as someone who is so actively in the forefront as a voice in this moment to take care of yourself.Nikole: Yeah. [lightly] Who the hell knows? I think that I'm a human being, and some days I have dealt with it better than others. Some days I've dealt with it in ways that I'm proud of and some days I've dealt with it in ways that I'm not. People forget, you know--and it's a good problem to have in some ways, but when the bigger your platform gets, people think that somehow you don't care anymore about what people say or how people try to treat and attack your work or you personally, but that's not true. I'm just a girl from Waterloo and never expected anybody would ever know my name. I just wanted to be a reporter, and to--and I think that because of that I also don't deal with disrespect in the way that people who come, I think, from more privilege or don't come from, like, such a scrappy background, like, things roll off their back in a way that they don't for me. Respect means a lot to me, and so I fight back, and I also understand that part of the kind of, like, vitriol that I get and my work gets is because someone like me should not be in the position that I'm in. Not just that I'm Black and a woman, though that's a huge part of it, but I'm also a Black woman who presents in a very specific way. I don't look the part that they think I should look. I don't talk the way they think I should talk. I don't defer the way that they think I should defer. And all of these are intentional decisions, right? I'm not a stupid woman. I know how I'm "supposed to" present and I refuse to, and so I understand that it's all of that, and, you know, I think what I try to internalize is the venom of your enemies speaks to the importance of your work, and if this work wasn't meaningful, if there wasn't some sense of fear or consternation about what this work could do, they wouldn't care about me and they wouldn't talk about me and they wouldn't write about me, and I have to always remind myself of that, that I'm doing this work for a mission. This is where it's helpful, you know, to have--Ida B. Wells is my spiritual godmother. Nothing that they could throw at me even comes close to what she had to deal with or even what my own grandmother had to deal with or my own father had to deal with, so I can deal with any of it.Zach: So, you know, we're gonna talk about my wife in a moment--and it's gonna make sense in a second--but when that series, that piece came out really seeking to discredit and undermine The 1619 Project and I looked at those names--because I have a network of academics as well, and so a lot of the people that were--well, some of the people rather that were in that group folks in my network knew personally and, like, really highly regarded, and I really looked at it and I said, "Wow. Nikole, this is a lot of power." Like, she has this much power that all these well-to-do white folks got together in a little Google document and started typing away to create, to do all this work, and that was my very first response was like, "Wow. This further lets me know that this is incredibly powerful and that she is seen as a threat to the institutions that be." So that's incredible. Thank you. Kind of continuing about your work, right, it's focused on segregation and its impact on marginalized populations. The New York Times recently helped produce Nice White Parents, which highlights a lot of the historic and present resistance to meaningful integration. That also reminds me of the interview you had on This American Life sometime ago. After your years of research, I have two questions, like, kind of back to back. One, does it seem like meaningful integration is possible, and then two, do you believe that integration is necessary to achieve equity?Nikole: Hm. So Nice White Parents is excellent, and Chana Joffe-Walt is the producer I worked with on my This American Life piece on Michael Brown's school district. What I love about it is that she--I mean, I've always said white parents are the most powerful force in any school district, whether they're in those schools or not, and that they often hold school districts hostage. School districts simply won't do certain things because they are so afraid of losing white parents, and I haven't seen anything that has spent that much time really exposing the way that that power operates with white parents who are supposed to be on your side. So if your listeners have not heard that podcast, they definitely should. And I saw some folks who were like, "I don't know if I want to listen to that podcast because I just can't stand to hear another white person who's shocked that racism exists." Chana is not naive, and there's no sense of naivety like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe these white parents are doing this." It's really like, "This is how we operate, and I'm going to expose it." So it's great. To answer your question, so possible and probable of course are two different things. Do I think meaningful integration is possible? Of course it's possible. We've rarely seen it, but it is possible. But in order for it to be possible it has to be--like Baldwin said, like, white people have to give up whiteness, and we also have to understand how much resources [?], everything from amongst private citizens, businesses, local government, state government and federal government went into creating the school inequality, still maintains the school inequality, and then if you're going to undo that and create a truly equitable, integrated school system, you have to apply equal amounts of power and resources, and we won't, right? The reason all of that power and influence was applied was because it was to the benefit of those who hold the power, and they're not going to apply the equal amount of resources in a way that doesn't benefit their power. So possible? Yes. Probable? Of course not. In terms of is it necessary? So in a practical sense absolutely. Nearly every school integration lawsuit that gets filed by Black parents or on behalf of Black parents initially begins as a simple lawsuit about equity and resources. You never see large-scale that Black people are just dying to have their kids in majority white schools, and so these lawsuits typically begin by saying, "Our schools are underfunded. They are not well-resourced, and we are suing because we just want the same resources in our schools as you allot for white schools," and then they begin that way and then they end with a push for integration as parents come to realize that they will never get those resources without white kids, and that's just true. It holds true in every region of the country. It holds true in rural areas, suburban, urban. It doesn't matter. In a country where we still have to assert that Black lives matter, which is really Black lives matter too, we know that the whole point of the separation is to deprive Black kids of resources and equality. The whole point of the separation is to ensure white parents get an inordinate amount of resources, and we just have never shown willingness to ensure that Black kids, and particularly poor Black kids, get the same quality of resources, and integration is the means to do that. There are things that we accept for Black kids that you can't imagine ever accepting for white kids, period, and we don't. So I wish that it wasn't necessary, but we've shown no other way that we're willing to treat Black kids the same as white kids unless they're in the same classrooms, and even then they're not treated the same.Zach: Right, and that leads into my next question. So I mentioned my wife Candis earlier. She's an educator teaching high school, and her district is starting remote. I know you've addressed concerns about the feasibility and effectiveness of remote learning during this time. As both a parent and a journalist who has specialized in equity and in education, what advice do you have for educators who want to provide a quality education from home to their students right now and what considerations do you think they should be keeping in mind?Nikole: God, this is so hard, and the public conversation has tried to make this simple. Zach: Really binary, yeah.Nikole: Yeah. It's either "open the schools" or "it's not safe, we can't open the schools," and either you care about kids' education and the inequality or you want teachers to die, right? This is the hardest thing, because one, we already have these structural inequalities that we have long known existed that are clearly being exacerbated, and there's no great answer. I know how much I struggled as a parent who is highly educated, who has a ton of resources, whose daughter has her own computer, to really implement online learning and the early data and research on the effects, particularly on Black kids, are absolutely devastating, and Black kids have the least wiggle room. They're already the furthest behind, so they have the most to lose. So I don't know what the answers are. I think where my frustration has come is you cannot, as educators, simultaneously say, "It's not safe for us to open schools at all, but I also don't want to be forced to do live instruction." You can't do both of those things. There's got to be compromise, and I think every parent has a newfound understanding for how hard teachers' jobs are as we've had to try to play a bit of that role in our own households, but we're all struggling to adapt to online. I didn't expect that I would be working from home either and having my child set off the fire alarm while I'm giving a talk, which has happened, but we have to really think about what this is going to mean for our kids in school districts that suffered to get proper funding for those kids before the pandemic and now are going to be dealing with slashed budgets, which I guess is my really long way of saying I don't know what the answers are, but I can tell you what is planned right now is gonna be devastating for low income Black and brown kids, and we have shown--I mean, look at the Democratic Convention and the Republican Convention. Nobody's even talking about "What are we gonna do for these kids?" No one's talking about "Okay, we need a massive funding package to ensure that these kids are going to be able to catch up once this is all over, to ensure they have technology, to ensure the internet is gonna be connected, high speed, to their homes." Like, there's no one even talking about this, and I know that what's gonna happen is ultimately we're just gonna have to--those kids are just going to have to deal with it, and they're gonna deal with it by falling further and further behind and being even more disadvantaged after this than they were before.Zach: So, you know, you spoke on something which leads me to my last question. It does seem, both the RNC--well, the DNC for sure from my perspective and as you listen to other folks, like, largely focused on this imaginary or not-so-imaginary white conservative in the quote-unquote middle of America who is debating voting for Donald Trump or not, and it reminds me of--kind of going back to the initial question I had around just the cyclical nature of history--a little while ago we had Dr. Jason Johnson on as a guest, and we talked about that, like, just how history repeats itself, and as we prepare for one of the most consequential elections of our lifetime, do you believe America is truly in a place to not re-elect Donald Trump?Nikole: In a fair election? Yes, but yeah... who knows if we're gonna have a fair election? It does not bode well, but yes, I think in a fair election, yes.Zach: Okay. Mrs. Hannah-Jones, this was phenomenal. Thank you so much for your time.Nikole: Thank you for your persistence, and thanks for having me on the show.Zach: No, God bless. Goodbye.Nikole: All right, bye.Zach: All right, y'all. That was--I mean, my gosh, y'all know what this is. Every single week we're having incredible guests, and this one was, like I said at the top, an honor, a privilege. Really excited. Make sure y'all check us out. Check out all the links in the show notes. Learn more about Nikole Hannah-Jones if you're not familiar, if you've been living under a rock. But the thing about it is, when it comes to Black media, even sometimes Black media posted on huge platforms like The New York Times, we miss it, so I want to make sure y'all check all that out. Make sure y'all check out Nice White Parents. This is not even an ad. I just got love for Nice White Parents. Shout-out to the team over there. And 'til next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

Zach chats with Kanika Tolver, founder and CEO of Career Rehab LLC and author of Career Rehab: Rebuild Your Personal Brand and Rethink the Way You Work, on this special Saturday episode themed around rehabbing your career. A senior project manager with the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Kanika is no ordinary "social-preneur" - she's a rebel entrepreneur and certified professional coach, a serial innovator who's fueled by an extraordinary commitment to social change and helping others create their own "epic lives." True to her book's name, she outlines the importance of rebuilding your personal brand and rethinking the way you work, and she lists some of the telltale signs she experienced when she realized she needed to undergo a career rehab of her own.Find out more about "Career Rehab: Rebuild Your Personal Brand and Rethink the Way You Work" on Amazon.Connect with Kanika on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.Check out her personal website.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, man, y'all know what it is. We're coming to y'all with real, authentic conversations every single week. So we're having these conversations talking about that real real, okay? We're having conversations that center underrepresnted, marginalized, underestimated, oppressed voices, experiences and lived identities in the workplace, and today is no different, man. We have a great guest. Her name is Kanika Tolver. Kanika Tolver is no ordinary socialpreneur. She's a highly decorated information technology federal government professional, rebel entrepreneur and certified professional coach and a serial innovator who's fueled by an extraordinary commitment to social change and helping others create their own epic lives, not to mention she's the CEO and founder of Career Rehab in Washington, D.C. Career Rehab focuses on assisting career transitions and transformations for students, professionals and retirees. Her company provides career coaching programs, events, webinars, and digital resources to help people reach their goals. She's the acclaimed author of Career Rehab: Rebuild Your Professional Brand and Rethink the Way You Work. In that book and in the conversation today we're going to be talking about, amongst a wide array of things, what's holding you back from taking the next step in your career. She's been featured on CNN, CNBC, CBS Radio, Yahoo, Glassdoor, Black Enterprise, Entrepreneur, The Washington Post--she's been all over the place, you know what I'm saying? So without further ado, welcome, Kanika. What's going on, now?Kanika: What's going on?Zach: All right, so look, I read the bio, but let's talk about, like, the why behind the career coaching and things that you do and really how you transitioned from tech and the public sector and, like, this social entrepreneur work that you're doing now. Like, how did that come together?Kanika: It came together because I was just really at a place where I felt alone at work, and I felt like, you know, I was growing professionally and I was making a lot of money, but I really felt like I wasn't being my true, authentic self, and I really wanted to help people. Like, I wanted to help people get to the places that I was able to reach in my career, and not having a lot of support at work just kind of--you know, my passion was doing career coaching and helping people with resumes and stuff like that, so that's kind of how I moved into the career development space. Zach: So then let's talk about, like, what were some of the key differences as you transitioned from working in the public sector, doing tech work to now going into personal career coaching? Kanika: I mean, I still work in the technology industry for the federal government, so I still have my day job as a federal government employee, but what it kind of looks like as far as being an entrepreneur and having a full-time job, it's pretty much me kind of been just building my career coaching clientele over the last three to four years. So I started off as a resume writer. I was helping people get a lot of good federal government job, a lot of good, high-paying tech jobs 'cause I was already in the industry, so I kind of started to do that and I started to kind of market myself online, and then I kind of transitioned into wanting a book deal and wanting to be an author and wanting to showcase a lot of the clients that had success with me in my book, but also I wanted to make sure that I was telling a true story of, you know, how my career life has gone for the past 10 years. I've had my own personal challenges. So that's where Career Rehab kind of came into play, 'cause I felt like we all need career innovations. You know, we all need to take our career to the next level in some way, so. Zach: You're absolutely right. I also think it's easy--when you consider, like, the history of America and, like, progress for Black and brown folks in the workplace, of course Black and brown people had jobs in corporate-like settings before the '60s, but when you talk about that, like, real influx, we really haven't been largely represented but for some less than, like, 50 something odd years, and we've only had all of our rights on paper--on paper--since, like, 1965, so... when you think about that, like, you and I, we're like the first generation of folks born with all of our rights--or we're the second generation. It gets kind of hairy, right, 'cause you think about, like, really Gen X, they're the first generation of people who were coming into the professional space with all of their rights on paper, and even still today, right, there are still folks who are, you know, 30 or in their late 20s who are first-generation professionals, folks who graduated from college. So when you think about, like, career rehab, the concept of career rehab or just needing to, like, really assess where you're at and what you're doing, those things--that's a novel concept for a lot of people who really just started getting into this space, you know what I mean?Kanika: I agree. I think me being more of a millennial, I think the Gen X'ers, they were the ones that really set the tone for, you know, helping to establish good--I would say the baby boomers established work ethic, right, being loyal to jobs. That's my parents' generation, and then you have the Gen X'ers who they started to get educated, they started to get jobs, but the millennials I think are the game-changing generation because we wanted more than just the education and the job. We want passionate work. We want work that matters. We want people to know our worth, and I think that Gen X'ers were a little bit more like "I'ma just do what I'm told to do and this is my job, I got it, I got my papers, I got my college degree, I got my education," but they didn't really rock the boat the way millennials and the newer generations are rocking the boat within the workplace. Zach: No, I agree with that. I think it's interesting because when you look at, like, the research that continues to come out, and then you look at social media that continues to, like, really be a game changer in terms of democratizing information and making things just really accessible, when you talk about just the reality of inequity, right, when you talk about, like, from pay inequity to opportunities to promote and rise within the ranks, to hiring and, like, the exclusivity of some of these social circles and how a lot of even these technology pipelines and things like that are really closed off. I do believe that we're in a different generation now than we were, you know, 15 or 20 years ago where we just didn't--people knew, but now we know we know, you know what I mean?Kanika: Right, yep.Zach: So when you talk about, like, career rehab and rebuilding your personal brand and rethinking the way you work, like, can we talk about some of the core tenets of that? Like, what does that mean, and where were you in your career that made you say, "I need a rehab?" Like, what were some of the telltale signs that you needed to rehab? Kanika: So rebuilding your personal brand was kind of, like, for me at a point where I was leaving my good federal government job to go into private sector, and I was scared. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. Like, I've been in the federal government space. This is comfortable," and I went to go work for a company by the name of Deloitte. I didn't know anything about the company, so I had to rebuild my personal brand as far as my resume and my LinkedIn profile to be able to talk the talk of private sector, because the government talks totally different than private sector. So that was a time where I was really going through a transition of being unhappy in my government job, and I was like, you know, "I have to rebrand myself if I'm gonna be able to get into a very innovative company. I'm gonna have to shift the way my brand has been looking as far as my resume and as far as, like, my LinkedIn profile." So that was kind of how I started to shift my mindset about how I thought about personal branding, because in government you just don't think about personal branding like that, right? You think about "This is a good government job, and I worked for this, and I'ma be here for 30 years," and my family and my aunties and my mom, everybody pretty much around me, was like, "Get a good government job," and I'm like, "This is not even really necessarily me, but I'm gonna do it." So that's kind of the shift that happened in my personal career.Zach: So let's continue to talk about this. I'm trying to understand when we talk about rethinking what it is you need or really what you want out of your career, like, what would you say are some of the biggest kind of, like, traps or patterns in your coachees that you see that lets you know that they need to be coached or that they need some help?Kanika: Rethinking the way that you work is a career mindset shift, because so often we don't really focus in on talking about, like, getting paid now, getting the money, power and respect. That's one of the things I coach people on, is it's not just about getting the job offer, it's about getting the money, power and respect, and the power and respect comes into play when you become a subject matter expert. You have the power and respect to be marketable. I think a lot of times in our community of people of color we just get so validated by "Oh, I'ma get this, like, nice-paying job," that we still don't get the power and respect at work, so that's a mindset shift. Another mindset shift that I see, that I have even applied to myself and even applied to my coaching clients, is things like "commute's worth the coins." It's okay to have a realistic commute. It's okay to ask for remote options from home. I think we so often are scared to ask for the work-life balance component of things in the workplace, and it has made us feel like we kind of, like, have a slavery mentality towards the job instead of the job offering us the things that we need in order to have balance.Zach: Yeah, and I think that also comes though from, like, a very real fear of loss, right? Like, you know, the system that we live in today, you need money to survive, and if you have people who maybe they've interviewed at fifty 'leven jobs and this is finally the job that said yes, it's hard to then, if you see you making those requests as a risk to keeping your job and then by relation keeping your lights on, you know, it's tough, right? So it's kind of like, you know, when you talk about that self-assessment to understand how to ask and then even facing those fears of asking. Like, what does it look like for the people that you talk to to help them get over some of the fears that they have in advocating for themselves?Kanika: I think one thing that I want to touch on when we talk about personal branding is that we have to continue to try to the best of our ability to align our personal brand of who we are as individuals with an employer brand that will make us feel like we feel good about this job situation, right? So it's important that when we're looking for jobs and interviewing for jobs that if there are things on our list that we desire to have in addition to our annual salary, if it's work-life balance, if it's paid time off, if it's remote options from home, I think it's important to do research on the job just as much as they're doing research on you as you come into interview with them. I think we apply blindly and we go on job interviews blindly not really looking at all of the other things that the job may or may not offer from a culture perspective or from a benefits perspective.Zach: And so then what does it look like to, like, assess a company to make sure that their personal brand does align with yours? Like, how does one go about that type of research?Kanika: So that type of research can happen through websites like Glassdoor.com. You can also--what I've done and what I've coached my clients to do is it's important to reach out to--what I usually do in the past is I reached out to Black and brown folks that worked at the company and I connected with them on LinkedIn and I either, you know, had a Zoom call with them or coffee chat or we met up for lunch, or we just talked on the phone, and I just wanted to get their insight on how the company culture is for them and how things have been working out for them, 'cause sometimes Glassdoor, it has some good, consistent information about the companies, but it's also good to talk to the people that already work for the company.Zach: Absolutely. I have folks hit me up on LinkedIn, Black and brown folks hit me up often. Let me, like, not even exaggerate. Like, a lot. A lot asking me about "I know that you work here now," you know, "Would you recommend this being a place for me?" What would be your recommendation or advice on how to ask and how to network, you know, in terms of asking people who currently work there and, like, how to reach out? What are some of the best practices for you?Kanika: Some of the best practices for me have been just developing a standard direct message template through LinkedIn and introducing yourself. The first thing you want to do is edify them, edify their profile, make them feel good, make them feel comfortable for them coming in to talk to you as a stranger. So I try to make the person that I'm interviewing like, "Oh, hey. I see you work at This Company and I see you have an awesome profile and you're an expert at this particular subject," and then I go in and I say, "Well, hey, I just wanted to reach out to you just to connect with you to see how you've been enjoying the company, and I'm interested in applying or I have applied to X job, and I would love to chat with you to see how your experience has been." So I try to send out maybe close to 10 messages, because not everybody's gonna respond back. Some people are scared to talk about company culture with a stranger, and some people just don't care--some people just don't really use LinkedIn and they don't respond, and a lot of people would be willing to share their experiences, and I try to get a diverse perspective. So I don't just say, "Let me just reach out to all the Black folks." I'm looking to reach out to a diverse set of people. So, you know, Asian, white, Black, female, male, you know what I mean? So I don't get just one perspective.Zach: Right, right. So let's talk a little bit about your work with [?] and your work with Entrepreneur, right? Like, how did you create that relationship, and what does it look like to maintain that, and how does it help the work that you do today?Kanika: I pretty much got a book deal with Entrepreneur a year ago, probably maybe December 2018ish I should say. Maybe a little bit over a year ago, but going into 2019 I got a book deal, and that relationship is really good. I was pretty much trying to get a book deal for a while with Career Rehab. Career Rehab actually got turned down by a lot of other publishers. So Career Rehab was pitched to Entrepreneur. They loved the idea. At first they had a lot of--if anybody knows Entrepreneur's brand and their magazine, they have a lot more entrepreneur, business-based authors on their roster, so they were looking for opening up an arena for more career topic-type authors, so I came in right on time for this particular time that they were looking for people, and they were looking for more minority women authors because Entrepreneur has a lot of white male authors. So that's kind of how that relationship happened. I got on the phone with them. I pitched them the idea. They really liked it. We started writing in January 2019, and then the book came out a year after that, this year, 2020. So it was a really good relationship. What I like about the platform and I like about what they're allowing me to do is they're allowing me to re-use a lot of the Career Rehab content in the book through articles. We're gonna be doing webinars. They're also allowing me to highlight other things that I want to talk about, like we featured Minda Harts. We're featuring Netta Jenkins with Dipper. So I'm using the platform to also highlight us in a way. You get it? So I'm using mainstream media, things that they've never seen from an African-American woman who's an author, but I'm saying, let's shed light on all of these awesome people that I know in my network as well.Zach: Yeah, I'm just really honored, you know what I'm saying, that you came on our platform to talk about your book, to talk about just some basic tenets on some of the things we don't know and how we build, and I do think I talk to folks--'cause I'm 30 years old, and most millennials, at this point they've been at their jobs for at least 5 or 6 years, right? Like, they've been working for 5 or 6 years, and a lot of us, we'll get hired somewhere after we do undergrad and then we do grad school, a lot of us will then be at our jobs for, like, 5 or 6--and those of us who didn't do any type of post-grad, you know, we've been working for 7, 8 years, you know, if not a little bit longer, and so I think it's important for us as we look at a new decade, like, what does it look like to do an assessment and make a determination of "Am I really where I need to be, and if not, what does it look like for me to create a path either at my current employer or to seek opportunities elsewhere?" Before we let you go--this has been a dope conversation--let's get some shout-outs in here. Where can people learn about you? I want you to plug your stuff. And then any parting words you have for us.Kanika: You definitely can find the Career Rehab book on Amazon.com. You can find me KanikaTolver.com. I'm pretty much on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn all @KanikaTolver. Those are my handles. They're all pretty much the handle, KanikaTolver. And, you know, you can just find me on, like, a lot of other podcast shows. I've done a lot of interviews, so yeah.Zach: Man, I appreciate you. Kanika, this has been fire. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been on the Living Corporate podcast. You know, we everywhere, okay? You can check us out on Google or whatever your search engine is. Firefox, you know? What's another one... Edge?Kanika: Chrome. Safari.Zach: Chrome, whatever, you know what I'm saying? You out there. Just Google us - Living Corporate. You know, we out here, but if you're into domains, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, and then we're also at livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate dot... shoot, all of the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia owns livingcorporate.com, okay? So when y'all go to livingcorporate.com and y'all see corporate apartment rentings, don't be like "What happened?" No, I told y'all. It's living DASH corporate dot com, please say the dash, or you can do livingcorporate dot any other thing besides .com and we're gonna pop up, okay? Now, make sure you follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod or Instagram @LivingCorporate, and, you know, our DMs are wide open. If you have a question, a listener letter, you want to send in something for us to read on the show, we can do that. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Kanika Tolver, CEO and author of Career Rehab, VIP entrepreneur with Entrepreneur, career coach, speaker, educator, technology consultant professional. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

On the eightieth entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield discusses one of the critical components of your LinkedIn profile and building your professional brand - your LinkedIn headline. Check out the full tip to find out how to create a headline that will catch the eyes of recruiters, hiring managers, or even potential clients!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. Today, we’re going to discuss one of the critical components of your LinkedIn profile and building your professional brand.Your LinkedIn headline is one of the most visible portions of your profile. It follows you across the platform from the my network section to even the comments you leave on other people's posts. So you definitely want to take the time to craft a LinkedIn headline that makes you stand out and is enticing enough to make people want to click through to your profile.LinkedIn's default headline is your current job title and company. Leaving it like this is a sure-fire way to ensure that you are overlooked on the platform. LinkedIn does have a character limit for your headline, which used to be 120 characters, but now it seems they've raised that limit to 219 characters. So you have plenty of space to build an engaging headline that speaks to your professional abilities.When I work with my clients, there's a little formula that I like to use to help build their headlines; it's called PEAD (P-E-A-D). First is the P, which stands for Position. You want to list your job title, so people know exactly what you do. Next is the E, which stands for Expertise. What's the thing you do best in your field? What do people always come to you for? You want that to be front and center. Next is the A and the D, they sort of go together, and they stand for Action and Difference. You want to write an action statement that highlights what makes you different or how you make a difference. This is the thing that showcases how you're different than everyone else doing this work.When writing each section of the formula, make sure to break them up using a symbol or emoji to make them easier to read, if you're confused on what that may look like, check out my LinkedIn profile or review the transcript of this episode for an example.Here's an example from a recent client I helped who is in education. Her headline used to simply say Teacher at XYZ School, now it says Social Studies Teacher & Educational Consultant | Curriculum Development | Coaching and training teachers on transitioning from theory to practice. As you heard, we touched on each part of the formula position, expertise, action, and difference.Remember, LinkedIn is about establishing your professional brand, and your profile's headline is a critical piece in doing that. Now that you have a formula take some time to create a headline that will catch the eyes of recruiters, hiring managers, or even potential clients.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

On the seventy-ninth installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield brings us another career tip, this time talking about when to take jobs off your resume. Remember, there's no one right way to write a resume, but the purpose of one is to show the employer how you can help them solve their problem. Drop your attachment to certain parts of experience if they don't fit with where you're trying to go and keep them if they do and simply focus on how you can make yourself relevant!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week let's talk about when to take jobs off your resume.Many of us have heard the rule that after 10 - 15 years, you should take experiences off of your resume. I used to give this advice too, but now I don't think the experience you should include on your resume is as cut and dry as that rule tries to make it out to be. In conversations with my clients, I focus less on the time limit and more on relevancy. When we are writing our resumes, we want to focus on providing the most relevant experience and skills in the shortest amount of time.So during my intake calls when we get to those experiences that are 10 - 15 years back, I always ask, "Does this role contain a relevant skillset not already represented by a more recent job?" If the answer is no, then we discuss either completely removing it from the resume or putting it an additional experience section with only the job title, company name, and dates if we still want to showcase the background or career trajectory. But if the answer is yes, then we have a conversation on what skill sets that role showcases that differ from recent experiences, and we keep ONLY that portion and ditch the rest.Now, some people, resume writers and career coaches included, don't necessarily like this advice. They may believe this begins to create gaps in the resume, and to that, I would say that completely removing anything 10 -15 years back already creates a large gap between college and the first employment experience listed. They'll also say if the skillset is 10 -15 years back that it is probably outdated to which I would say if that's the only place that represents the skillset, then why risk the chance of not getting the job because you omitted it?Remember, there's no one right way to write a resume, but the purpose of your resume is to show the employer how you can help them solve their problem. So drop your attachment to certain parts of experience if they don't fit with where you're trying to go and keep them if they do. Simply focus on how you can make yourself relevant.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach chats with Dr. Lily Jampol on this special Saturday episode themed around allyship and privilege. She and Zach discuss the diversity, equity and inclusion space at length, and Dr. Jampol shares her perspective on both where the industry is going and what the next step is to really take it to the next level. Check the links in the show notes to check out the work of several prominent Black authors and thought leaders!Connect with Dr. Jampol on LinkedIn and Twitter.Dive into the work of Stephanie Jones-Rogers, Ibram Kendi, Rachel Cargle, and Ijeoma Oluo.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we're back. Yes, we're back from outer space, having another great conversation with someone who is passionate about amplifying Black and brown voices at work, 'cause that's what we do, right? Like, we exist to highlight and center underrepresented perspectives and experiences and identities at work, and we've been around, shoot, now going on a couple--like, it's almost up to year 2 now, and I'm just really thankful for all the support. So shout-out to all of our listeners. Shout-out to the folks working 9-to-5. Shout-out to the people working 10-to-9s. You know, whatever y'all working, man, shout-out to y'all. And then of course shout-out to our allies, you know? Our Buckys, our White Wolves. So, you know, for those who are not Marvel fans, Bucky was Captain America's sidekick, and then when he had to be rehabilitated because he was brainwashed by Dr. Zemo, Baron Zemo, he then went to Wakanda, and when he went to Wakanda he became "the White Wolf." And, you know, Wakanda's all Africa. You know, it's all a bunch of African people, 'cause it's in Africa so it's all Black people. But he was the White Wolf. Like, he was trusted. You know, he was a true ally of the people. So all of that to say we also engage allies on Living Corporate, right? So this is not, like, exclusive, right? Like, if you are less melanated, then as long as you're down for the Wakandans, hey, we're down for y'all, right? So with that being said, we have a really dope guest - Dr. Lily Jampol. Dr. Lily Jampol helps organizations solve difficult challenges and ensure that their workplaces are happy, productive, and equitable. She primarily works with the diversity, equity and inclusion firm ReadySet based in Oakland, California, and a people scientist and strategist. Dr. Jampol is also a frequent speaker and writes on diversity and inclusion from a behavioral science data perspective. She believes that one of the keys to moving forward is understanding how people think, behave, and relate. Lily, Dr. Jampol, Dr. L, Dr. J, what's up? How are you doing?Dr. Jampol: I'm doing pretty great. I'm almost always doing great. I'm feeling super fulfilled by my work right now, and I'm generally speaking a pretty positive person, so it's all good. I feel like it's a rare thing when the anger and disappointment that you feel about the world and society can be channeled into your actual day job, so I'm constantly grateful for that and all of the other wonderful things in my life.Zach: Man, you know, and you've been a few different places, right? So I know that you're at ReadySet today, but you've had a journey, right? Like, can we talk about your background and how you got into this world of diversity and inclusion?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, definitely. Well, so I've always been a pretty curious person about other people and society in general. I've also taken some non-traditional routes in my career trying to follow that curiosity, and in terms of background I actually grew up in an eco hotel in Costa Rica, and that was a really interesting experience for me. It was the first time that I really saw inequality, and yet also I had to confront how my white privilege played out there even while I felt like an outsider myself. So growing up in a different country and also a hotel made me super curious about just how people relate to each other, how differences play out in society. I also came from a pretty social justice family since they're all eco warriors, so I knew I wanted to do something social justice related. I started off in political science, but I ended up getting my Ph.D in social psychology where I was examining human behavior, specifically gender bias in organizations. So for a while I thought I was gonna be in academia, and I spent 3 years as a professor in London at a business school, but while I really enjoyed my research, I really was also feeling like I could make a bigger impact working to implement that research in organizations, and this all came to a head when I was going through the middle of a pretty nasty divorce and I was like, "Screw everything," so I quit my 10-year [track?] career and joined a tech startup here in Silicon Valley, and after a few months there I realized I wasn't really working as much on issues that felt really socially important, so I transitioned to working with ReadySet, my amazing team, doing diversity, equity and inclusion work, and I've done serious amounts of learning since then. So I came into this work thinking that I was an expert in my field, and I didn't realize how much of a novice I was when it came to actual equity issues. First of all, I barely knew or used the term "intersectional feminism" before starting this work in the field. So part of what I love about my job now is how much I've been able to grow as a person and also help others who are just beginning their journey to be able to do so too, and I really do have my colleagues and my network to thank for that.Zach: That's incredible. And, you know, you talk about your privilege and you talk about, like, you coming to learn things and experience things on your own and develop certain levels of fluency and awareness. I couldn't help but notice myself that you're white, you know what I'm saying? Like, it leapt out to me. [laughs] I'm curious to know about how your whiteness intersects with the work that you do within behavioral and data science and, like, you know, when I say how it intersects with the work you do, like, how does it impact how you show up, and what observations do you have in, like, being in this space?Dr. Jampol: Yes. Right, I am very white, or unmelanated as you put before. I'm literally half-Viking, half-Ashkenazi Jew. Zach: That's incredible actually. Shout-out to both the Ashkenazi Jews and the Vikings. That's--wow.Dr. Jampol: My mom is basically, like, 100% Swedish, Norwegian, so yeah, definitely have some Viking blood in the background. My whiteness really does impact my work in a pretty big way. So when I started my Ph.D I was actually focusing on behavioral economics, and the reason that I'm telling you this background is because I want to explain how my behavior and my work has changed since then. So when I was doing behavioral economics, in that field it's mostly dominated by white men, still is, and when I was doing that work I always felt like I had to prove myself to be taken seriously, and when I started transitioning into looking at gender biases, I was told to stop doing that work by many of my advisers and colleagues because I was told no one was gonna take me seriously as a scientist. Now, of course that made me want to do the work more, but now that I'm a white person and I have a data and quantitative background, I realize how privileged that identity is. So I can come into a room with a bunch of tech executives and lay my Ph.D out on the table, proverbially speaking, talk data with them, and they give me the validation and respect that many of my colleagues who have been doing this work much longer than me and who are not white just don't get, and it actually impacts the way that I play a role on my team, and for good reason. So for example, we had a company who we were working with who were just not taking the CEO of my company seriously, who is a Black woman, and she has a JD from Harvard. She worked as an international human rights lawyer. She's the CEO of her own successful company, has been doing this work for, you know, 5 times as long as I have. You put me in the room, and I had only been working in this space for a few months, and their attitudes just totally changed. They went from, you know, defensive and aggressive to, "Oh, yeah. Of course. You know, this sounds great. What do we need to do to get there?" Zach: Can I pause right there though? 'Cause, like, I'm so--I'm so triggered. [laughs]Dr. Jampol: Okay. I'm sorry about triggering you. [laughs]Zach: No, no, it's not your fault. [laughs] So the reason why I'm pausing is because I think--and we haven't done these studies because of white fragility and the fact that I think academia is still, like, very much so, like, a white space, but I wish--and maybe we have and I just haven't seen it, but I'd love to see a behavioral study done on how the majority tends to treat Black and brown professionals with a certain level of hostility and defensiveness that they don't treat white counterparts, right? Like, your earlier point about the CEOs, like, why--and I've been in situations where I've been on the receiving end or I've observed. Like, "Why are you talking to me like I'm your enemy or like I'm trying to get you?" Like, "Why are we not able to have, like, an actual dialogue?" Like, "Why does everything feel really transactional and, like, a zero-sum game in this conversation," you know what I mean?Dr. Jampol: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I totally do, and I think, you know, you're totally reading my mind about wanting to do some behavioral studies on this stuff. I think about this all the time too, and I think you're absolutely right. There is quite a bit of evidence showing that people from underrepresented backgrounds in different domains, including women, have to prove it again and again and again and give more and more legitimacy in order to be taken seriously, but I do think that the aggression and hostility is an interesting component of this, and I have a lot of theories about why, and I think--and I don't want to go too down the rabbit hole, but you got me excited about this topic, so just for a second... so [a study] I've been really playing around with in my head is the entitlement to the good will and patience of people of color towards white people to learn and to get to where they need to be, and I'm talking about not just, you know, average people, but well-meaning, progressive, liberal people who still believe that it is your work, people of color's work, to be able to get them to where they need to be. And it is my job, and it is our jobs as, you know, a company, but I would love to see research showing that there's an entitled expectation to how we're supposed to be doing this work for people and also putting up with them when they don't want to do it and don't want to, you know, put their 50% of the work in. So there's lots of other studies I want to go over, but that's just one I've been playing around with as well, that entitlement aspect.Zach: Yes. So I'm not trying to cut you off, 'cause you're telling a story, so I'm not trying to--ironically--mansplain and jump all over your stuff, so please continue with the story. It's just that you said that and I was like, "Oh," and I wanted to just ask the question. So please continue. So you come into this space. You're relatively new. The CEO, the person who actually built the company and has the education from a fairly elite, recognized institution is not as well-received, but you come in and the whole vibe changes.Dr. Jampol: Yes. The whole vibe changes. Not only that, but we just have more--you know, an easier time getting [?] and actually comvincing people, but I think I also want to talk about one interesting other thing that I observed, and this is something that I've observed in a couple of different companies and situations in that a lot of the people who do this, I think that we have this idea of what that person looks like, the CEO of a company or who sits on the board of a company. White women are very much involved in the same process, and in fact I see this pattern from white women almost more than I see it from white men, and I think there's something interesting in that.Zach: Wait a minute. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Dr. Jampol: I think that often we see white women putting up the most resistance to doing diversity, equity and inclusion work within companies, especially if they've already achieved a position of power. And, you know, there's a litany of reasons why that happens. A lot of them are psychological. A lot of them are just where women sit in the power hierarchy of society. So they sit in the middle, not at the highest point--which is where white men sit--and not at the lowest point, which is where a lot of people of color sit in terms of how much power and influence you have. So they have a lot to lose, and a lot of the ways that women have managed to achieve a semblance of power is by either mimicking white men or upholding the very systems of oppression that have, well, essentially benefitted them for a long time, but also benefitted white men. So there's a lot to lose by getting rid of that power, but there's also a kind of "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" attitude of "Well, I got here, so why does anyone else need help to do so?" But I do think that there's something greater in terms of how white women have benefitted from systems of oppression compared to women of color and men of color.Zach: And I wonder, like--and so, you know, I am not a Ph.D, so when I say things like, "You know, I haven't seen this," I'm not trying to say that it doesn't exist. What research or what, like, written work would you recommend, if any, that explores, like, the historicity of white women and their relation to systems of power in America?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. That's a great question, and I also want to, before I continue, just say that I don't have, you know, quantitative research to back that observation up. It's an observation I made. However, this idea that white women uphold systems of oppression can be seen in lots of other data that we have. For example, who is the group that voted Donald Trump into power? We have lots of other data to show that white women are upholding systems of oppression, but I think, you know, we can go back and look at historical data about how this happened. Stephanie Jones Rogers is an amazing academic who wrote about how white women were complicit in slavery, essentially, in the American South, and it really starts there. You know, it starts in other areas of colonialism, but there's quite a few academics who are writing about this, and there's also thought leaders who are writing about this as well. Rachel Cargle. Robin DiAngelo. I mean, she's a white author, but she's written extensively on white fragility. Ibram Kendi, Ijeoma Oluo. Those are all folks that I think are really interesting to read and have [?] a lot more on this than I have.Zach: And again, like, just shout-out to you for, like, highlighting Black authors and other thought leaders in your quick list that you just, like, sprouted off like it was nothing. That's super dope. So let's talk about that then, right? We've talked a little bit about how we've seen, like, power abused or taken advantage of, but I'd like to talk a little bit more about what, like, effective allyship looks like, right? And we've had a few of these types of calls, like, these conversations on Living Corporate. I don't think that, like, they ever get old. I think it's really important that we have advocates and aspirational allies on this platform, because there are a variety of people that listen to Living Corporate. A lot of diversity and inclusion professionals listen to Living Corporate, and I can say that I just--I don't know if I've even seen a lot of programming that is really explicit on what it means to build inclusive behaviors as a leader. I don't know if I've seen training that's really, really intentional in building that fluency or building that capability or that muscle, whatever word you want to use, and so I'm really curious from your perspective, what do you think it looks like, specific to white women, what does effective allyship look like in the workplace? Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's such a great question, and I think we're talking about allyship more and more, and it's something that we talk a lot about with the organizations we work with. I think that first of all--let's talk about intentions for a minute. I think I feel sometimes when I talk about white women that there is this assumption that there is an intention to be racist, for example. I don't think that that's necessarily true. I think there's a strong desire to be good people, and I think that, you know, women, having been marginalized themselves, feel like they have been victims of that marginalization as well. The problem is that strong desire to be a good person, when they are told that their actions are contributing to racism or they are complicit in a system of white supremacy, it makes us feel threatened that our own progressiveness, our own willingness to help others, our idealism of ourselves as good people is super threatened, and that makes us shut down, and I think that's because we've been--and I'm not the first person to say this obviously as lots of people have written on it, it's what we teach--we have not had to grow up and experience the discomfort of having to talk about race and racism and systems of oppression. And so for a lot of people this is the first time they're even hearing about it. So the first thing is just being comfortable with that discomfort of understanding that it's not about you, it's about systems of oppression that you still might have behaviors and even attitudes that are formed through your experience with the world, with culture, with television, with radio. The way that we learn how to stereotype is just ingrained in our society, and so we have to start slowing down and be able to recognize how we actually are contributing to that. We have to also be careful in terms of allyship with how we show up. So I'm always trying to be conscientious about not taking up too much space and making sure that I'm amplifying non-white voices and work and also listening more than I talk. I think this has been a big change for me over the last couple years. This is also part of the framework that we teach in our Ally Skills workshop, which I co-facilitate with my colleagues Willie Jackson and Kim Tran at ReadySet, and it's really about moving from passive allyship to active allyship, what we call being an accomplice. So it means centering impacted communities rather than yourself, owning your impact when you hurt somebody's feelings over your intentions to not have hurt their feelings, listening and learning and expressing humility and amplifying other people's voices, and it's also about how we demonstrate growth and are humble when we mess up, and we will mess up. So I myself am trying to be a better accomplice in this work. I think in terms of D&I practitioners there's a huge place for white women who are working in this space, and I know a lot of white women are trying to figure out what exactly their role is. I think one of our roles is to be able to do some of the emotional work and the burden of carrying some of these conversations and some of this work forward so that it's not only people of color who are doing it. So there's also--you know, my white privilege as a white person, I can get angry and I can push back in a way that doesn't have the same repercussions for my Black colleagues. I can lend my voice or carry conversations that are triggering or exhausting for people of color to do, for example, convincing white women that they play a part in white supremacy or that feminism has to be intersectional for it to work. So I think there's very specific roles that we can play that can help us be better allies, both personally and to other folks in the DEI space. Zach: And, you know, it's just such an interesting dynamic too when you talk about, like--so, like, the things you're talking about around feeling threatened or feeling attacked or feeling just various levels of insecurity, like, it's really interesting as it intersects with having white women managers, right? [both laugh] Or then, like, being even more complex is having a white woman manager who is, like, supposed to be the czar of diversity and inclusion, and you're working for this person and it's like, "Okay. I recognize that you've been invited to these very, like, exclusive white spaces to sit on a panel and, you know, to word diarrhea on diversity and inclusion and, like, the latest thing that you read in Cosmopolitan, but I also have insights and life experience, and those life experiences mean things, and I know things by merit of my life that you may not understand or you just frankly don't even think about." And it's just interesting to me when I think about, like, this dynamic of, like, the corporatized diversity and inclusion space and how you have often times white women in these positions of leadership in these groups, and they themselves are either--I mean, everybody has blind spots, so it's not, like, even this huge knock. It's not, like, this huge indictment. It's just the reality of you're trying to lead a space that it's critical for you to be empathetic, coachable and humble in, and if you think that you have nothing to learn or you think that everyone around you, especially people of color, Black and brown folks, are just there to do your bidding, like, that is just cruelly ironic, you know what I mean? But I see that though. I see that often, like, in these corporate spaces, where, you know, Whoever is, like, the leader of D&I, and it's like, "Why are you here?" And I know there's tension, right? Like, I've had conversations with Jennifer Brown, and she's talked about, like--I'm not gonna say she's on one side and I'm on the other, but my impression of our conversation was, like, "I feel like we're--" We being white D&I professionals--"are constantly questioned and have to really show and prove that we should be here," and I'm kind of like, "Well, yeah. You should though." I mean, I'm not trying to be, like, a jerk. It's just like, "You should. You should show and prove that you should be here, because we don't have a historical track record of--" Like, I don't know of a model, like, a person, a white diversity and inclusion, one diversity and inclusion that is like, "Wow, this is the model." And I've asked other--you know what I mean? I know I'm kind of ranting, but I'm asking--Dr. Jampol: No, no. I hear you, I do, and I actually really agree with you. It's something that I've thought a lot about, even as I'm thinking about my own career trajectory, right? Because I want to help do this work, but I don't want to occupy a position of power first of all on my own as a white person, like, I don't think I should be the head of diversity and inclusion at a company, at least not right now in this societal context, because I think context really matters too, and I think we often don't think about that. We think in terms of meritocracy, you know, about, like, "Who has worked hard and who deserves to be here and who doesn't?" But we're talking about representation. We're talking about justice. We're talking about repairing harms that have been done over hundreds of years in our society, and right now diversity and inclusion is often one of the places where people of color can have influence and power within a company. And it's important too because--well, I'm not explaining it to you, because I'm hearing all of your points and I'm just saying that I agree with you, because I think you have to be in a position of taking a step back and learning, and I think you can find your niche as a white person in this area--I mean, mine is behavioral science data right now. I'm also still trying to figure that out, but I'm also really focused on learning, 'cause if we're not doing that personal learning, we're just repeating those same things that have happened throughout history, and we're repeating those hierarchies and we're maintaining that status quo. So yes, short, TL;DR, you're right. [both laugh]Zach: It's interesting too. I want to talk about your work, right? I think something we first talked about, like, when we first did an introductory call is I'm curious about what does it look like because--so, like, I've met people who are in D&I and, like, they purport themselves to be, like, data strategists, right? But they don't actually have any actual context--and I'm kind of jumping ahead, because this is a part of a question I'm gonna ask you in a little bit, but they don't really have, like, the empathy or the, like, fluency and, like, understanding of American history that would then inform how they do their work. So in my mind, and this is based off just my very limited experience, right, is it feels to melike you're almost sitting in two camps. Like, you're sitting in, like, this hard, quantitative, scientific, measured space, but then you're also--because of your own background you still do have a passion around, like, connecting inclusion and diversity and equity with justice and the historical foundations of the work itself, as well as the work and writings of Black and brown women and activists and people who came before you, right? So, like, do you feel a duality there? Do you feel as if, like, you're uniquely placed, or do you feel as if your profile is common within, like, this data science and behavioral space that you work in?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's a great question. I think about this a lot. I don't think that it's common. I think if it was common we'd see a lot more data scientists doing diversity, equity and inclusion work, and I mean--there's other reasons for that. I mean, I could be making a $300,000 salary if I wanted to do data science in a tech company. We don't do this work for the money. But I do think that I've had different relationships with data and how I approach this work, and I think I do want to start this by saying that it's really because of my team at ReadySet that I have become this hybrid that I feel comfortable [?] and that I am able to do both the quantitative aspects of my job and also the very human aspects of my job. I think when I came into this field I had been taught my entire career that quantitative evidence-based scientifically published data is the only type of data of value. So evidence-based work, evidence-based in general is such a buzzword now. I think everybody hears it, and I think people believe "evidence-based" means that it has to be couched in [?] methods and scientific papers and outcomes calculated in ROI, and I definitely did when I started with this work. So I'll just tell you a quick story. I think in my first week of working with ReadySet I was analyzing data for a company, and I was doing it the way that I had always been taught to, which is trying to find significant statistical difference between groups in a sample, and in order to do that, when you have fewer than 5 people in a sample you usually just take [?] out because it's not gonna be statistically valid, and I remember having this conversation. I think in the room was [?], one of my colleagues, and Kim Tran, and we started this conversation, which was started by them, which was, "Why are we leaving out a small sample?" Now, this sample had been a sample of transgender people within a company, and in my mind I was just like, "Well, we'll just leave them out 'cause they're not a big enough group," and they were--you know, that was how I had been taught, and they were like, "Wait, but the whole point of doing this work is to represent the voices and the opinions and the feelings of underrepresented, small numbers of people within a company," and I was like, "God, that makes total sense," and it's ridiculous that I had even thought in my mind that that was an appropriate thing to do, you know, in terms of getting these major insights. So that's just a story about, you know, how I first started thinking about this, so I really want to give credit to my teammates for helping me get there. I still think that evidence-based research is important, but so much of that research is based on white, Euro-centric idea samples and methods. Quant data can be super useful, let's say if you want to track representation in your company or show that a bias exists, but it should not be necessary for doing this work. It's just that our concept of data, what data is and what kind of data is valid and important is biased, and I've been writing about this a lot recently. I'm trying to publish it soon, but I've just been getting--I feel like this idea is so complex and interesting, but I have noticed that there has been a trend with the people that we work with, and that is people's responses to DEI work in particular, they use data--and data with a big D, I call it--to stall and delegitimize or otherwise reject diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Zach: Yo! Yo, wait a second! Golly, Dr. Jampol on here dropping crazy, crazy, crazy Flex bombs. [Flex bomb sfx] Oh, my gosh. And then also--Dr. Jampol: Yeah, and please feel free to, like, stop me whenever. I tend to just go on [?].Zach: Yo! Yeah, I'm trying not to cut you off. I'm trying not to be rude. And also air horns for your team, 'cause I know you shouted them out. [air horns sfx] Okay, so first of all, yo, man, tell me why you're talking about--you said people use big Data, big capital D data, to discount D&I initiatives and--like, say that again.Dr. Jampol: Yeah. So I think that people are using data to basically put off doing the hard work, to delegitimize the work itself or just reject, like, having to do any of that work itself, and I'll explain a little bit why I think this is happening. So I think it's happening in part because the way that people in power use data in relation to diversity, equity and inclusion work is similar to other ways that we inadvertently uphold systems of oppression. It's essentially gatekeeping, and it benefits white people, and I think one of the ways that I've seen this is overly demanding evidence from DEI best practices. So wanting to know, like, what exactly is going to work here in my specific context, but then also refusing to contribute to those best practices by actually being innovative and taking risks in that space so that we can add to the knowledge base. And then another way is through dehumanizing human data by not looking beyond the quote-unquote "hard data," so not wanting to listen to people's stories, not wanting to hear the voices of employees that already exist within their organizations, by not wanting to listen to experts, people like my teammates who have been spending years doing this work, and then finally using data or the need for more evidence to block the efforts to actually go forward on that data. And so often, you know, we'll have a conversation with people that often sounds like, "Okay, here's why we should go forward with this program," and they'll come back and say, "Okay, okay, but do you have any data on whether this is gonna work?" And I'll come back and say, "Look, we don't have a ton of data yet. This is still a pretty new field, and there's lots of different people doing it. It really depends on what your context is. But, like, here's what we know." "Okay, but that's not enough data. Like, we really can't go forward with this until there's something that's not gonna be as risky." So then we'll come back and say, "[We] collected all this data from inside of your organization. Here's this group, this group and this group that are saying, "I'm not happy." Please do these things," and they'll say, "Okay, but how many people actually said it, and can you actually go get us some [?] studies of other companies like mine that have done this so we don't take a risk and don't make people upset?" And then we say, "Which people are you making upset?" And then they look blankly and say, "Wait a second." And we're like, "Yeah, [white?] people." Anyway, I think the reason I put it this way is that I think that data is important, yes, [but?] data is used as a tool to block this work because it is inherently uncomfortable and it involves having to do [?] and it involves having to do some money and some priorities into it, and I think people ultimately just don't think it's that important, and so they're able to use data as this kind of delegitimizing or scapegoating force that they can say, "Well, we don't have enough to do it." That's my thoughts on that in a nutshell.Zach: First of all, again, shout-out to you 'cause, man, that's incredible. You know, I might have to go ahead and drop another Flex bomb... [Flex bomb sfx] 'cause that's incredible. So it's interesting though, because you're talking about how organizations can use quote-unquote "data" to slow down or block efforts to make organizations more inclusive, but I also think, like, there's something to be said about how data itself is reported, aggregated or analyzed, right? So how do we account for, and how in your experience as a data scientist do you account for, the biases that exist within, like, data analytics itself, right? So let's just say you get the data. How do you account for biases on the day that you receive it, and how do you account for any biases that you have, conscious or otherwise, in how you analyze and report that out?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's a really great question, and--I mean, there's a lot to be said here, and I think this conversation is happening in other places like AI as well. I think first of all, like, the way that we use--so let's go back to the evidence-based question for a minute. So when people talk about evidence, they're often talking about academic research that has been done. As an academic researcher myself, I know that a lot of this research is really not legitimate for talking about any bit of this work with any kind of intersectional lens, because most of this work has been done using a super white sample at an Ivy League institution in a lab where all of the variables have been held constant except for the one that you're researching, and that unfortunately has translated in a lot of cases to best practices where people say, "Oh, well, we have to change this one thing in our organization because research has shown when you change this one thing, this happens." Of course that doesn't really incorporate a lot of people's experiences, and I want to say also that I am fully guilty of doing this in my past research. So as a gender bias researcher, I often talked about women and men as this very, like, homogeneous group, and really when I'm talking about women and men I'm talking about white women and men, because that's my sample and that's the lens through which I was doing the work. And, like, Black women's experiences are gonna be super different and my affects might totally change. You know, one of my affects that I found is that women--and I should say white women because that was the majority of my sample--are given less accurate performance feedback than man. So even though they're judged to be doing poorly, their managers will tell them that they're doing okay. By the way, this work was done in a lab with a primarily sample of white people who were Ivy League educated and through samples in, you know, Mechanical Turk online. So just thinking about that through an intersectional lens, do I know that that is going to happen in the same way for women of color when we're thinking about different types of women in the workplace? No, and yet we still use these words, you know, "This is a gender bias effect," you know, without really knowing what some of the different groups might experience. So I do think there's that bias. I also think in terms of the data that we're analyzing. This is another really important thing. When we get survey data, often companies just want to rely on that survey data to make decisions, but the problem is there are certain groups--especially the ones that feel less safe in organizations--that do not answer the survey, and so you're leaving out groups of people who are the most important to hear from if you're just looking at one type of information. Instead it's better to go and do a qualitative assessment on top of the data and make sure you're getting down to the bottom of some of the trends that you see, but also you're including voices that wouldn't necessarily participate in a written way. So there's lots of different ways that bias can creep in, and the way that we analyze it and the way that we do that research is really important.Zach: I'm really curious about your opinions on this, and I've shared this on another interview but I want to bring it up here. So your work heavily focuses on partnering with organizations to help them set up their D&I strategies, and when I talked to other diversity, equity and inclusion professionals, a lot of time this work is delivered in the context of office hours or workshops or, you know, trainings. I'm curious though, like, have you helped groups transition from seeing diversity, equity and inclusion as, like, these isolated, singular events to being more of, like, an iterative journey that they're on to develop and grow and, like, partner with them? Like, have you seen that or have you helped any organizations kind of pivot in that way?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. So I think it's hard. I think it's really hard. Most of the work we get is for "check the box" type work. Initially a lot of organizations want to come in and hire us to do a workshop or an assessment and then go from there, which is totally fine. Often the people who are initiating those programs are internal HR and DEI practitioners who have a very limited budget that they're working with and need something to be able to convince stakeholders that this is worthwhile and that there's a desire for it or they just want to get it flowing. So we love doing that kind of work because it allows us to be able to impart important knowledge. For example, we focus a lot on systems bias, not just interpersonal or unconscious bias. We focus on biases that are structural and how those relate to historical systems of oppression. So we do get our education in there, but in order to do this work successfully it has to be integrated with other business objectives and as an outcome itself. So we know, you know, you can make the business case for it. It's tied to ROI. It's tied to innovation. I mean, it's a really important part of culture. I've found that in order to convince stakeholders I often offer the risk side of this as well. It's really risky to not do this work for many reasons. I mean, talent attraction for one, but there's also your culture can fall apart, and that can actually lose tons of money. But ultimately our aim is to get people to see why it's more than a business case, and I think we've had this success with a couple of companies. I'm thinking of one in particular where--and actually this is one that I've mentioned before in some of my stories, where we came in and did a series of conversations with the executive team trying to convince them that, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion is a good way to go, and it took a long time. It took 6 months of really educating people, bringing them in terms of conversation, letting them contribute their thoughts and fears, and really we use, you know, empathy, but also just vulnerability there to understand, like, where the pain point is, and now we've got, you know, a multi-year scope with them, and they have fully understood, and we're working with every single organization and team within their company, and its become a priority, but it did take some time. So I think there's hope to be had, but I think you have to do it really intentionally and really methodically in order to get people there unless you have someone who's on board already.Zach: That really leads me to my next question. What do you think the next step is for diversity, equity and inclusion, like, as an industry, as a corporate for-profit space? And I ask because I see--it's weird, and again, like, I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a behavioral scientist. I'm just a change manager who is also passionate about diversity and inclusion who's doing his own thing and kind of creating his own path. It's almost like you have this growing activist wing and, like, community organizing wing within this diversity, equity and inclusion space. There's also, like, this growing academic wing that is almost, like, a white moderate, but then I see this other group that's almost pushing against the community organizing activist attitudes and sentiments, almost to the point where--'cause I've seen things like this on LinkedIn, no doubt, where I've seen things that people say, "Just because you're a person of color doesn't mean that you should be in diversity and inclusion," right? There's these narratives of, "You're passionate, but your passion doesn't equal education or credentialing." And so I'm really curious about, like, where do you see this space going next, and what do you think is, like, the next step to really take this work to the next level?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. That's a big question, and I'm just gonna kind of share some thoughts. I don't know that I have a perfect answer for you on this, but I think to your comment around--you know, you see these kind of different camps on social media and practitioners and different approaches and ways of doing this work, and I think actually that that's a really important dynamic to have to move the work forward. I think it's the same thing we see, say, like, in the Democratic Party, where there's a more radical left side and then there's the centrist side and then there's this push and pull constantly of, like, "What do we do and where do we go?" And through doing that we're creating new definitions and understandings. And, you know, I get a ton of education from just reading through Twitter on a daily basis of, like, "Oh, I didn't know that word. I hadn't thought about it in that way before," and trying to see, like, where my values align, but I think that in order to progress we need pressure from the outside. We need radical pressure, and we also need the more compromising inside pressure of "Okay, we're gonna take this slow and do this methodically and bring people along," and I think you need both those forces. I think the outside pressure is the social pressure that really validates some of the inside pressure that we're putting on people. So let's say I'm taking a company along, trying to get them to understand using empathy, and they're doing okay, but then they have a PR crisis because something they posted on their social media site gets called out, and those two forces operating together create a really successful way forward, and I think that's also why there's different roles for different people within this space. I do think we should be pushing boundaries, and I do think we should be pushing people to get there, and I think some of the comments that are happening around this stuff is really just evidence that that's happening, and I think the third part of this is just that we need companies to lend more support to actual innovation within this space. Going back to that data conversation, you know, by demanding best practices and more evidence to prove the things that we already know work and to prove that we're actually legitimate in doing this work, it's stifling innovation. We need organizations and leaders who have the privilege of being in these spaces already to put money and time and effort and spaces towards creating innovation in the DEI space. We need more collaboration between academics, leaders, corporate employees, and we all need to work together to be able to create new pathways forward, but I think we have to get out of that head space of thinking about, "Best practices, best practices, best practices," and start taking a little bit more risk, because I think we're seeing risk the wrong way. We're seeing risk as like, "What if I do this work and it goes wrong?" when we should be seeing risk the way that any other company sees innovation and risk, which is sometimes you have to play around with the parameters in order to do the work the most effective way. But I as a data person would love to see data on this, just so we can keep track of what we're doing and what works and what doesn't. I think I would love to see more data like that, but it means that companies have to release their data on what works and what doesn't, and when diversity and inclusion stops being a shameful thing, you know, when companies stop thinking, "Oh, gosh. It's so horrible that I only have 20% women or 5% Black people in our company. Nobody knows, so I don't want to talk about it." Like, everybody knows. Everybody knows. You're a tech company. Like, it's bad. Talk about it and, like, actually publish it and support new ways of thinking about this stuff. I think we need all three prongs of pressure there to move forward.Zach: Man, Dr. Jampol, I have to just thank you again. Like, this has been a super dope conversation. I want to give you the last word. Is there anything else? Like, any shout-outs? Any parting words before we let you up out of here?Dr. Jampol: Thank you. I feel the same way. This has been such a fun conversation. Thank you for letting me nerd out and be on your podcast. I think your podcast is wonderful. Thank you for doing the work that you do. I also just want to give a shout-out to my team again because they're so amazing and I feel grateful for them every single day and for all the authors who have helped educate me to get here. And Twitter. Honestly, like--not Twitter the company but, like, the people who are actually being brave and voicing their thoughts on Twitter and helping educate us, even if it means that they are taking flack for it. I think it's been such an important part of my own growth. So thanks to everybody.Zach: Oh, man. That's beautiful, and yes, we'll make sure that we list all the authors and we'll have all of that content in the show notes, y'all, so make sure you check it out because, again, believe women, listen to women, believe Black women, believe all women. There's a lot of great work that's being done, you know? For those of y'all who are--you know, it's funny. There's an understated, like, expectation or kind of, like, tension around who really deserves to talk about these things, and those conversations don't really happen until Black and brown people start trying to talk about diversity and inclusion, but that's a whole other conversation. But the point is a lot of the work that comes into really educating yourself, what I've been learning is, is about reading the work that Black and brown women have written about this space, right? And so I just want to encourage, like, if you're listening to this and you're passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, check out the show notes, use that as a starting point, and just start reading. Like, educate yourself something. Like, don't depend on these super Ivy League white institutions to tell you what diversity is. It is one of multiple data points. I would say start with the Black women and then work your way outward from there. All right. Well, cool, cool, cool. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this. You know we're posting content three times a week. We're all over the place, so if you just Google Living Corporate we're gonna pop up, 'cause we got it like that. Ow. We're also on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and again, if you want to check us out, if you just gotta--let's say you old school and you wanna type it in the browser, then it's www.living-corporate.com--please say the dash. We're also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.org--Lily, we have all the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other ones. We're trying to--what's that thing when you... SEO. We're trying to take it over, okay? One domain at a time. So we're out here. Let's see here. Until next time, this again has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Lily Jampol, data scientist, behavioral organizational just beast, general researcher, all over super dope White Wolf ally... what else we got? I don't want to say edge-snatcher because, I mean, you're still white. I'm not trying to get you in trouble, but just super cool Viking Ashkenazi Jew hero. How about that? Is that cool?Dr. Jampol: That's awesome, and I'm someday hopefully gonna fit that all in my LinkedIn profile. [both laugh]Zach: 'Til next time, y'all. We'll catch y'all. Peace. [both still laughing]Dr. Jampol: Bye.

On the seventy-eighth entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield continues to talk about your LinkedIn connections list, this time spotlighting the importance of knowing exactly who you're connected to on the platform. You can't properly leverage your network if you don't know who you're connected to, so take some time to reacquaint yourself with your connections list so you can make the most of it!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week we're continuing to talk about your LinkedIn connections list and knowing exactly who you're connected to. I mentioned on the last tip that I started a LinkedIn profile in college and just began adding people. I think this was the case for many of us. Since we've amassed these connections over the years, it's difficult to leverage them because we don't always know who we are connected with. Yes, you can go to your network page and scroll through each page of your connections. But there's a method where you can get all of your connections into one place, and I want to teach you how to access it.When on LinkedIn, there's a bar at the top of the page, and next to the notifications section is Me under a small version of your profile picture. Click on that and then click Settings & Privacy. On the left side, you'll see How LinkedIn uses your data click on that, then click Get a copy of your data. From there, you want to select the Want something in particular option and then click the box next to connections. Finally, click request archive and put your password in. It may take up to 10 mins for the file to be created, but you will receive an email when the file is ready.Once you get the email, you'll want to click the link inside that states download your data archive using this link; it will take you back to the LinkedIn settings page where you can now click the download archive button. Once you do that will download a zip file that will contain your connections in an excel spreadsheet. The spreadsheet includes their first name, last name, email address (if they listed it), their company, their position, and when you connected with them. Now, you can quickly sort by companies and titles to see who you are connected with and reach out to them. You can even use the excel spreadsheet to track when you reached out to them and if you get a response.You can't properly leverage your network if you don't know who you're connected to, so take some time to reacquaint yourself with your connections list so you can make the most of it.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

On the seventy-seventh installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield emphasizes the importance of cleaning and building up your LinkedIn connections list. Remember, LinkedIn is all about being seen by the right people, but you can't do that if your connections list is filled with inactive profiles and people who have nothing to do with where you're trying to go!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate? It's Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week let's talk about cleaning and building up your LinkedIn connections list.When you take the time to curate your connections list, you are not only ensuring that the right people see you, but you're establishing rapport and building your thought leadership with people who may be able to help you or hire you down the line. Unfortunately, many of us are not that discerning with who we add on the platform. If you're anything like me, you started with a LinkedIn profile in college and just began adding people. You thought, the more people I'm connected to, the better, right? Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that's not exactly true. See the number of connections you have is what we like to call a vanity metric. Yes, it's nice to see the 500+ connections on your profile, but you don't get results off that number alone. It's less about the number of connections you have and more about the quality of connections you've made.If you've had your profile for a couple of years, I'd suggest going through your connections list and getting rid of people who aren't active and people you don't know and don't plan to get to know like those irritating salespeople. I'm not telling you to get rid of friends from college or your old job or even to get rid of people completely outside of your industry, but just ask yourself, does this person engage on the platform? Is this person producing content fairly regularly? And is this content something I'd like to see? If the answer is no to any of those questions, that may be a person you’d want to consider putting on the chopping block. Doing this will help you begin to tailor your connections list so you can start seeing content you like and are more likely to engage with, making your time on LinkedIn more enjoyable. Sometimes this can get overwhelming, so maybe just go through 15 - 20 connections each time you log on, and before you know it, you'll have your list cleaned up.Now, when it comes to making new connections, I recommend you start by adding people who are in similar roles to those you want to obtain in the near future. These people can help provide you insight into what it's like to be in that role, what it's like to work for that company, and if you develop a relationship with them, they may even give you a referral. Next, I suggest focusing on people who are one to two levels above where you want to be. These people are usually decision-makers, which means they may post open positions on their team and may even have the power to hire you for one of those positions. By adding those two groups of people, you can raise your visibility within the industry simply by interacting with their posts often. And when they interact with yours, their connections list see that as well. Don't forget to send a personalized message when connecting with them to increase your chances of them accepting your request.Remember, LinkedIn is all about being seen by the right people, but you can't do that if your connections list is filled with inactive profiles and people who have nothing to do with where you're trying to go.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach sits down with Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco Healthcare, and they talk about being an executive while Black, COVID-19, and advice around navigating corporate America on this special Monday episode.Connect with Ken on LinkedIn.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and wow. You know, I'm recording this on May 27th, and it's challenging times, right? You know, we talk about Living Corporate being a platform that amplifies and centers marginalized voices at work, and one thing about--I'm gonna just speak from a Black perspective--is that we say that being Black is exhausting, like, that's a common phrase you'll hear, like, on Twitter and stuff. Black people say it, and we'll say it also in conversation, like, "Being Black is exhausting," but the reality is being Black is incredible. It's the systems of oppression, and that's cultural, that's political, that's legal, that's legislative, that's economic, that's judicial, that's... like, these systems come together and make being Black exhausting, and so I come to you today, you know, I'm excited, I'm thankful to be here, and I'm thankful wherever you are. I see you. I appreciate you. You're loved and you're supported. You know, we exist to really be a space, a digital oasis if you will, of encouragement and affirmation, and so we do that on this platform by having real talk in a corporate world. We interview CEOs. We interview executives and entrepreneurs and authors and activists, scholars, authors, all types of folks, really tackling perspectives from marginalized experiences and marginalized identities, marginalized meaning underestimated, underrepresented, under-supported, and we do that every week, and today is no different, y'all. We have Ken Miller. Ken Miller is, man, one of the few CEOs we've had on the platform. I just want to actually get right into it. Ken, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ken: I'm doing fantastic, Zach. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: Oh, man. I have to ask, you know, how are you and your family doing during this time?Ken: As you said, these are very, very difficult times, challenging for all of us. In fact, you know, this COVID-19 crisis has truly impacted my family. Unfortunately I lost my grandmother to COVID-19. I lost my uncle to COVID-19. My mother-in-law tested positive and is now in the hospital. So this pandemic is truly impacting all of us, in particular my family and moreover people of color around the world, and we gotta do everything we can to try to get this thing under control, Zach.Zach: Absolutely. You know, I want to get right into it, right? Every now and then, like, I'll read this huge bio for folks, right, but I really want to give you space to talk to us a little bit about yourself, talk about your company, your background, and just what you want folks to know about you.Ken: Yeah, for sure. I come from very humble beginnings. I grew up in Westchester County in New York City in a very small town called Greenberg, New York, and growing up in Greenberg, we all grew up like family, and I was fortunate enough to have a very tight network of family and friends that really supported me in my development, made sure that I did everything I had to do academically as well as build some decent athletic skills. And I was fortunate enough to go to college. In fact, I was the first member of my family to go to a four-year university and actually graduate, and fortunately enough I was able to get into school via football, but while there I grew a passion for academics and ultimately wanting to make a difference. You know, I was fortunate enough to jump into the healthcare industry shortly after undergrad where I just continued to progress, be given more and more responsibility. I had a network of leaders that supported me along the way in my development, continued to challenge me and give me new opportunities, and throughout this journey that's been over 30 years I've been fortunate enough to lead organizations here in the U.S. for major Fortune 100 companies like Pharmacia Pfizer, like Roche Labs, like Novo Nordisk. I even had the opportunity to serve as an ex-patriot in Basel, Switzerland for about two and a half years while with Roche Labs, and I believe that that journey, those experiences, actually prepared me to take on more of a leadership role in healthcare, and currently I am the president and CEO of Nasco Healthcare. We are a healthcare company focused on the development of simulation training solutions for first responders, such as folks who are in the frontlines right now fighting COVID-19, nurses and doctors, to ensure that they build the skills so that they are ready to meet the needs of patients however they present themselves, and so I'm very happy and excited to be on this podcast with you, talk to you a little bit about my background and my journey, but the long and short of it is, Zach, that I come from humble beginnings and I feel very fortunate and thankful to be in this role today to try to make a difference in healthcare. Zach: You know, let's talk about your role. You're the second Black male CEO we've had on the show. I'm curious to get your perspective on what you would say are the biggest factors that have led you to the seat that you're at in Nasco today.Ken: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that it is 1. my faith, as well as my support network, that has led me here. You know, trusting in God, trying to be the best person that I can be, living my life with integrity I think has positioned me well to take on this opportunity. And then having a strong support network. My wife, she's my #1 champion. She's always in my corner. She always helps me make good decisions, as well as my broader network of family members and friends who coach me along the way. I think those two elements have prepared me to be here as CEO and president. Don't get me wrong - I was very fortunate to go to a four-year school, get my undergrad education. I went and got my MBA from the University of Chicago, one of the best business schools in the world. I've worked all around the globe, so I've had great experiences, and I think that those things coupled with the first two points that I made have absolutely prepared me to take on this type of leadership role, Zach.Zach: I'm curious, especially during times like these, and we're coming up right after this whole Amy Cooper situation and the continual just brutalization of Black bodies that continues to be broadcasted on, like, major media platforms... I'm just a manager, but even I as a manager, I feel like my safety net has gotten smaller and smaller as I've progressed in my career. Am I overstating the pressure to succeed as a Black male CEO and, like, the small degree or the lack of grace that you may have the higher up you get? Am I overstating that?Ken: No, not at all, Zach. I do believe that our circles are getting smaller, and the challenges of assuming these leadership roles for men of color are even more and more difficult.Zach: So let's talk about that. How do you manage that stress for you? Like, how do you manage the stress of having to constantly be on your Ps and Qs? What does that look like for you? Ken: Yeah, absolutely. Let me come to the stress element second. Let me start with how to get there, okay? One is you've got to have to an unwavering belief in yourself. This makes me reflect back when I was in third grade, and my third grade teacher seeing me as a Black boy in class tried to put me in a remedial reading group, and my mom was not having it, Zach. My mom marched up to the school and she told that teacher, "There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. He has all of the capabilities as any other kid. All you've got to do is put him in the position and challenge him and hold him accountable." From that moment on, I committed myself to being my absolute best, to having a commitment to excellence in everything in which I do, and so that brings me back to this unwavering confidence and belief in yourself and never giving up, Zach, and I think that if you do that you will achieve your greatest opportunities. You will fulfill your greatest opportunities. Now let me get to your question about the stress, right? You know, listen, obviously being president and CEO comes with a number of pressures. It's a 24 hours a day, 7 day a week job. You're never off. There's always a flood or a fire that you've got to deal with. There's always a great opportunity that needs your input to lean on, to pursue. So it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I think that early on when I assumed this role it was far more challenging and far more stressful because I didn't have the experiences and I reacted to each individual situation with everything. I think that what I've learned, Zach, is to treat triumph and disaster as the true impostor of which it is. I try not to get too high when things are going great. I try not to get too low when things are going poorly. Second aspect of it is that I realize through my career to be successful it's going to take a team, therefore I try to gain organizational alignment and input and have strong trust and agreement among my team, because I know what it's gonna take to win is that it's gonna take the collective effort of all of us working together to achieve our aim or overcome any individual challenge. As a result of that, I think that I'm managing the stress much, much better. Because I don't get too high or too low, as well as because I lean on the capabilities and strengths of my teammates, recognizing that I don't have to take it on all on my own, that there are others that are in this with me to help me solve these challenges.Zach: What does it look like for you to navigate white fragility and build relationships and coalitions of trust with folks that don't look like you, considering where you sit as an executive?Ken: Hey, that's tough, right? You know, it's much easier for us to connect and bond with those that look like us, talk like us, walk like us. It's far easier. But at the same time, that's not the world or the environment in which I work in, right? It never has been, from the minute I walked into corporate America. I've always been surrounded by predominantly Caucasian males and to some degree Caucasian females, very few minorities. And so what I've learned to do throughout my career is find my authentic self, Zach. Be me. Be the best Kenny that Kenny can be and always present that to others, and I think that with me being authentic and genuine I connect better with others, as well as I can have more candid, open and honest conversations about things that are working and things which are not working. Sometimes, you know, my culture--listen, I'm a little direct, you know? I'm a little forward, but I want to make sure that we're having the real conversation and we're not sweeping any issues or concerns under the rug. And so with doing that I think that I've built really strong, long-lasting, trusting relationships with those which I've worked with. If you ever look on my Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook page, you'll see all of my colleagues throughout my 30-year career who are still my friends, who still recognize me for having a contribution in their development and helping them to progress and get to where they are today, and many of them are my Caucasian counterparts.Zach: Let's talk a little bit about Nasco and your journey in healthcare and, like, why this industry specifically.Ken: You know, it's very interesting. Zach, when I came out of undergrad graduating from the University of Albana in 1990, I just wanted to get a high-paying job, you know? So I wanted to get paid, so I jumped out and accepted a role down on Wall Street with Morgan Stanley. You know, I could see my future. I thought I'd be living the high life like The Wolf on Wall Street, but I quickly realized after a short six months in that industry that, although I was succeeding, I was growing, I was learning, I wasn't being fulfilled or personally rewarded, and so I got recruited by a pharmaceutical company and ultimately accepted that role, and I immediately began to flourish, and what I found was that I was able to do good while doing good, and what I mean by that is I was able to grow professionally, be successful, achieve my professional goals and aims, but at the same time I was able to bring healthcare solutions to physicians and nurses that were ultimately on the frontlines of impacting and saving people's lives, and from that I was tremendously rewarded. So throughout my 30-year career I have, with all of my passion, jumped into the deep end with these communities, whether it be the diabetes community, whether it be the psychiatric community, whether it be the simulation and training community of frontline healthcare workers, because I truly believe that the work in which I've done over my 30-year plus career and even to this day is really making a difference in helping to ultimately save lives and make our communities even better.Zach: So we're in extraordinary times. Can we talk a little bit about how Nasco's business is adapting to the market and challenges presented by COVID-19?Ken: Yeah, this is a very challenging time, Zach, and for us we've tried to modify and adjust our business to these times. First and foremost, the number one thing is to keep everyone safe, both the associates that work within Nasco Healthcare as well as their family and friends and the communities in which they live. So what we've first done is that we've enabled as many associates within the organization that have the ability to work from home to work from home. For all of those who are essential and critical to maintaining our business on a day-to-day basis within the building, we've instituted all of the normal social distancing measures, staying 6 feet apart, having mask requirements, limiting vendors into the corporate facilities, putting our manufacturing associates on staggered shifts to limit the bringing together in common areas like lunch rooms and break areas. We disinfect the entire facility from top to bottom four times a day, as well as we've put extra care into disinfecting all of our products as they are being shipped out of the building and ultimately arriving at our customers. So safety is the #1 priority. In terms of meeting the demands and the needs of the markets in this changing time, we've created more remote learning solutions. So we've partnered with universities, healthcare systems and governments around the world to create simulation training solutions that can be delivered digitally online so that healthcare professionals can continue to get certified and trained so that they are ready and prepared to meet the challenges of this pandemic. The last thing that we've done is that we've ramped up the production of our life-saving solutions, specifically our CPR solutions, our intubation heads, as well as our patient communication simulators that aid healthcare professionals in diagnosing COVID-19 during this crisis. Zach: And, you know, I'm hearing the parameters and the measures that you're taking. I'm curious, with that in mind, and as we look at--you know, folks are saying that this may be going on until, like, next year. You know, when you look at the next 18 months, what are you most excited about with Nasco?Ken: Yeah. I'm really excited about our ability to be able to take training from the classroom and take it into the home. With our digital remote learning solutions, I think that we have the ability to really help healthcare and first responders to be ready to 1. navigate through this crisis as well as be better prepared in the future. As well, we are ramping up our production of COVID-19 simulation solutions so that... and I shouldn't say just COVID-19 simulation solutions, Zach, but pandemic response simulation solutions so that once we conquer this pandemic and we use these solutions, we'll be much better prepared for those in the future. I think if there's one thing that we learned from the COVID-19 crisis is that we were not ready. We were not prepared as a nation or as a globe, and so I believe that our local, state and federal government leaders have clearly identified how woefully unprepared we were. So at Nasco Healthcare, our aim and our goal is to ensure that everyone be ready, and so we are building those life-saving solutions that help first responders and healthcare professionals be ready when the time comes. So whether it be to diagnose a patient during this crisis, whether it be to train a respiratory specialist on how to put someone on a ventilator, or to be able to resuscitate a patient that's in cardiac arrest that's right by the bedside or on the side of a car accident. All of these solutions we believe we will be coming forward with over the next 12-18 months that show a very bright future for Nasco Healthcare, and we ultimately hope to help the community be better prepared in the future. Zach: So before we let you go, what advice do you have to the marginalized professionals, especially now, in the workplace?Ken: Yeah. Well, I'm one of those marginalized professionals in the workplace, and so the first thing I would recommend is to believe in yourself. Never allow anyone to steal your confidence. That's #1. Have an unwavering belief in yourself. Two, commit yourself to excellence. Do the absolute best you can do at whatever you are doing. My mom taught me at a very young age that if you're gonna clean a bathtub or clean a toilet, scrub it until it shines, you know? Give it your best. Give it your all. Third is to build your network, right? Find individuals that you believe that you can learn from and ask questions. Be inquisitive. And last but not least is you've got to get up every day, right? You've got to get up every day and commit yourself to doing all that you can to grow. I think that there's one thing that I want the marginalized associate to remember, and one of my leaders taught me this a few years back in my career, Linda [?], one of my fondest leaders in my career, and what Linda told me was, "Ken, you might feel like you've got your back against the wall and there's only one way out of this situation, but remember, there are hundreds of options. You just have to down-select to the option that you think is most attractive for you." So Zach, for that marginalized associate, the last thing I'd want them to remember is that you've got many, many options to succeed. Don't believe there's only one path to your success. But choose a path and then get on that road, and if you find yourself deviating, course-correct, but stay focused, stay committed, continue to believe in yourself and I'm confident that you will achieve your goals and your aims. Chase your dreams. Never give up.Zach: You know, Ken, I gotta tell you, I appreciate your energy, man. Before we let you go, any shout-outs?Ken: I would just like to thank you, Zach, for allowing me the opportunity to be a part of this podcast. I'd like to thank Tina Chang and the pioneering collective for the work in which they do on my behalf, and I would just like to thank all of my friends and family who have supported me throughout my career that have allowed me to get to where I am now. I would just pray that everyone stay safe and stay healthy, and I'm wishing all of you and your families, you know, positivity as you navigate through this COVID-19 pandemic.Zach: All right, Ken. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. We do this every single Tuesday. Make sure you check us out. We're all over Barack Obama's internet, okay? So if you type in Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod and on Instagram @LivingCorporate. Until next time, you've been talking to Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco--CEO and president of Nasco Healthcare. Peace.

On the seventy-sixth entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield shares one way you can reduce your competition when applying online. Remember, the name of the game when it comes to your job search is standing out. If you can’t do it through networking right now, utilize this tip! It's just just one of the small things you can tweak that can impact your job search.Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzThis week's tip was inspired by Danielle Holmes, the owner of Career Services by Elle. Check her out on Instagram!https://bit.ly/30YlLWsFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What’s going on, Living Corporate? It’s Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week I want to discuss one way you can reduce your competition when applying online. Before I dive in, I want to acknowledge that this tip was inspired by an amazing Black woman resume writer, Danielle Holmes of Career Services by Elle. Make sure you check her out on Instagram at @ellecareerservices.Most of us want the most efficient job search possible so we try to reduce the amount of time we spend looking for roles. To do this, we utilize websites and job search engines like Indeed, Monster, CareerBuilder, and LinkedIn. These websites provide a one-stop-shop to see as many job postings as we can all at once, which is a great convenience. But with convenience always comes a downside. Since so many of us are doing that, our competition tends to be higher on those platforms. Not to mention, there are preconceived notions that some hiring managers or recruiters have that if a candidate applies through a job posting board that they may not be as serious about working for their company, and the job seeker is just looking for any job.Now, if you’ve listened to me for a while, you know that I am an advocate for networking as a method to help you stand out from the competition and avoid all that. I’m also a realist who knows that many people aren’t necessarily doing that, and applying online is still the most convenient and familiar option. So if you’re going to apply online, I suggest using those job search engines to find the role, then going directly to the company website to find and apply for the position if possible.So you’re probably like why? If I apply, they get my application either way, right? Yes, but many people don’t take the time to apply directly on the company website. Often times when you do, those applications arrive in a different inbox and sometimes go to a completely different person. Getting your application with a pool of 150 others versus getting your application with only 50 others can definitely make a difference. Not to mention you get to avoid all those preconceived notions about whether you care about the company or not.Remember, the name of the game when it comes to your job search is standing out. If you can’t do it through networking right now, this is just one of the small things you can tweak that can impact your job search.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

On the thirtieth installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder and CEO of Byrd Career Consulting, touches on a very important subject, particularly ahead of Black Women's Equal Pay Day (Aug 13) - salary negotiation. In this first installment of a two-part series, she focuses on why you should never accept the first offer you get, how to come prepared to the discussion and more. Check back in about two weeks to hear the second part of the show!You can find out more about Black Women's Equal Pay Day by clicking here.Stop by LateshaByrd.com! Click here to check out Latesha's shop, and don't forget the 60% discount code GETTHECOINS.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Check out Latesha's YouTube channel.Connect with Byrd Career Consulting via LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTLatesha: Hey, y'all. Welcome to another episode of The Link Up with Latesha. I am so excited for today's episode, and you are in for a treat. Yes. So we are at almost August. We have one more week of July, and then August brings my favorite holiday, Black Women's Equal Pay Day. Heeeeey. [laughs] Black Women's Equal Pay Day is August 13, 2020, and before I tell you what today's episode is going to be about, I just want to lay out some context here. Now, why is August 13th Black Women's Equal Pay Day? Well, let me break this down real quick. So what we as black women earn comapared to a white man is a little over 60 cents to a dollar. That is insane, y'all, and it's literally so mind-boggling. I'm just like, "Am I the Twilight Zone?" The studies are out here, you know? There's a lot of focus and hyper-awareness on the inequities that we face in the workplace, but if you study the statistics and the data, it's upsetting me and my homegirls. Literally. And all I've been talking about lately, it seems that the topic of focus has been salary negotiation. And I'm all about helping women get to the bag and get to the coin and knowing your value and knowing your worth and never settling, because we have goals, and we have--and I don't even want to say we have bills to pay, but we have goals. I don't want to make 60 something cents to a dollar, okay? I want the full dollar. So today's episode, you're in for a treat. I am going to be sharing some salary negotiation mistakes that literally hold you back from getting the bag, but other times where I've been talking about salary negotiation, if you follow me on social media or if you've been listening to this podcast, you know that I have a wonderful community called Career Chasers Member's Club, and it's an online community for black and brown women that are seeking the support, the guidance, encouragement, accountability, all the things that they need to really level up in their career and chase their career greatness--haha, y'all see that? Career chasers. [laughs] No, but this group is simply amazing. I love all of our members. We are almost 500 strong in so many countries. I was looking at the metrics just the other day, and we have members all over the States, so all over the U.S., Canada, UK, [?], Lagos, Sweden, South Africa. Like, yes, we are outchere. Outchere outchere. And so each month we have a theme, and the month for July was salary negotiation, and I think that we just can't get enough of this information and this content because we don't learn these things in school, right? We're taught almost to get a job and be grateful, right? Who has taken a negotiation class in college? I never took a negotiation class, so when I tell you I personally have made all the mistakes, my clients have made all the mistakes, and this is why we're talking about today's episode. It is all about the mistakes that I want you to be aware of right now so that this does not hold you back any further in your career. Again, Black Women's Equal Pay Day is August 13, 2020, so we are actually doing a two-part series. This is part one about salary negotiation mistakes, and part two is the same thing, but let me break this down as to why this holiday is set here. So check this out, y'all, and then you will be in for a treat to learn those common mistakes. So equal pay-day, August 13th 2020. What this represents is that, you know, we as black women would have to work from January 1st of 2019 to August 13th of 2020 to earn on average the same amount that a white man would earn from working--check this out--January 1st 2019 to December 31st of 2019. Yep. So you're telling me we would have to work a year plus over eight months to get what a white man earns in just one year? Like, these are the things that upset me and my homegirls. I'm sorry, y'all. I'm gonna get off my soapbox so we can get into these mistakes. But that is what Black Women's Equal Pay Day represents, and that's why I am always going to just make sure we're talking about the things that we have not been educated on. All right, so I would love, love love if you get a pen out and a notebook out and you get ready, 'cause you are in for some gems. All right, let's go. So when it comes to salary negotiation, I have been doing a lot of research and reading on the different bias that shows up in the workplace. That's a whole different topic, but for right now let's talk about salary negotiation. #1 mistake is that we don't look at the full compensation package, okay? So one question I wanted to bring up is "If you agreed on a salary number, is it still okay to have a conversation about benefits, work from home, flex time, vacation time, or is it off-putting?" First of all, let me tell y'all about some of these questions that y'all are asking me. Don't ask me "Is it okay?" Okay? You don't need permission to ask for more money. You don't need permission to negotiate. It's never gonna be a good time to negotiate, but you know what? It's not about them, but it's really about you. It's about you. Negotiation is just a conversation, and we really forget that. It's not a confrontation. You're not hopping on the phone with the recruiter saying, "Look, you're gonna have to give me this money or, like, you're just gonna have to come meet me outside." Like, that's not how [laughs] a negotiation conversation goes, so we really have to reframe our thought process on, first of all, why are you asking for this amount of money, what do you actually need to be successful in this role, and why is it important for this company to meet your needs? Companies have no issue with asking us what they need from us, what time we need to log on, that we need to be on these Zoom meetings. We've got to turn our video on. Everybody wants to see our face. Like, they will ask you for every single thing, so why are we scared to ask back? We have to understand that it's a fair value exchange. I'm showing up. You know, I'm saying showing up meaning I'm logging onto the Zoom, I'm turning my chat on and saying I'm available so y'all don't come for me. That's what I mean when I say show up, since most of us are working remotely. You are still expected to perform, right? They're gonna tell you what they need from you, so you've got to tell them what you need from them. So with that being said, salary is just one part of this whole, like, thing when it comes to negotiation. I mean, my first job out of school I didn't negotiate. It was more money than I had ever seen before. The next offer that I got I did not negotiate, and I found out that the other person that actually referred me for the role that had the same amount of experience was getting paid more. Like, she slipped up and told me in conversation. I was like, "Oh, that's how y'all do? Bet." Ever since then I've learned to 1. not accept the first offer. Always ask for more. Let's say they give you more than what you even imagined. You cannot accept. Always ask for more. Because guess what? If that company really wants you, they're gonna find money. Y'all see all these companies donating towards Black Lives Matter and they just said a month or two ago that they ain't have nothing, "Everybody's job is on the line." They've got it. They've got it. All right, anyways, so let me go ahead and continue with what I was saying. When it comes to negotiating your salary, salary is just one very part too, and I know, like, salary negotiation, like, salary is an overused term that does not fully kind of lay out everything that you should be negotiating for. So one thing I want to make sure is clear is that there's a difference between the salary and then the compensation package, okay? Those are two very different things, okay? Salary, you want to have three numbers in mind. I can't give y'all all the gems, 'cause you gotta be in the group--the Career Chasers Member's Club. So there's three numbers that you want to have in mind. So I gotta break it down 'cause I get very excited talking about these things. Bottom number. So the first number is your bottom number. Like, "I cannot go any lower than this number." This is your settle number. Like, "I really want this job so I'll take this number, but I'm not going any lower than that." Okay? The mid number. That's the number that you, like, really want, like, you would be very satisfied with. You ain't gonna tell them that though. All right, then you got your top number. This is your dream number. Like, "Whoo." Now, you know what? "Y'all onto something. You really want me to be here if you're gonna offer me that." So those are the three numbers that you want to have in mind. You want to have very specific numbers in mind. I don't agree with salary ranges, and I'll talk about that in a sec. Those three numbers in mind, because that means when they throw out a number, you'll already know--like, you're already prepared as to what you're not willing to take and where you're willing to meet them. Does that make sense? And let me talk about why you want to have these numbers in mind and why I don't agree with salary ranges, because if you tell them, "I really want something paying 70 to 80," of course they're gonna offer you something at 70, 71. You know you want an 80! You know you want an 80, so why did you tell them you wanted 70 to 80 when you really wanted 80, okay? You have to ask for more. You have to ask for more than what you truly, truly want, and you cannot accept the first offer that they give you. I don't care if you love that offer. You can't accept it. I personally like if they can give you a number first, because I've had two clients--two clients that told me last week, "I was interviewing for a role, I told them the number that I wanted, and they said, "Oh, yeah, this job is actually, like, paying 10, 20K more than the number you just gave me."" So here's the thing. If you're not sure on what to ask for or what they will pay, I mean, you want to do your research first, but you can always ask them. So let's talk about what that ask would look like. Okay, you're in a conversation and they're like, "Hey, Keena. We really wanna give you this job, you know? Tell us a little about the salary. Like, what pay are you looking for?" You know how recruiters try to ease into it. Like, y'all know what y'all got. Y'all know what y'all about to pay me, so why you doing that? Okay. [laughs] So they're like, "Keena, what salary are you looking for?" Here's how you would ask the question back. "You know, thank you so much for this offer. I'm excited to consider--" Y'all, listen to this wording, "I'm excited to consider the total compensation package. However, what do you all typically offer for someone with my experience in this role?" Just try it! I know it feels very uncomfortable and very unnatural to ask them, but just try it out. My best friend did this years ago, and what she was going to ask for was about 30%, 40% less than the number that they gave her, okay? Here's the other reason why you want to ask them too, because you can do the research all day, and I definitely want you all to make sure you're researching. So I want to go back to comp package, but I also want to talk about what numbers to ask for. Okay, it doesn't matter what you were making at your old job, right? So let's say you worked at a non-profit. Non-profits typically pay lower than some corporate jobs. I mean, that's pretty well-known, right? So what you were making in your non-profit role really has no relevancy as to what you should be getting paid in this corporate role. You have to understand the industry that you're in, the location that you're in, right--New York, L.A.. You're gonna pay a lot more than little ol' me here in Charlotte, or maybe even in Dallas or, I don't know, y'all know the cities that have the highest costs of living, right? So industry, what else should be considered here? Graduate degrees, certifications, leadership experiences. Your skills. Like, just you. You bring you, and you should get paid for that. So think about fair market value, and this was a very--like, this is a great example I use in all of my salary negotiation presentations and workshops. So our experience--unless you're an athlete, right, unless you're a model--our skill set and the value that we offer to our workplace definitely appreciates in value over time, where as, you know, if you're an athlete [and] you're out here trying to play football--like, I was watching Cam Newton's stuff yesterday. Like, I don't know. As you kind of work more in the athletic field, like, your performance declines 'cause you're older, [?] health or you take more hits. Anyways, that's kind of the opposite for us working professionals. Our value, in terms of what we offer, definitely appreciates over time. So let's say you're buying a car, right, and you bring--I have a 2014 Altima, right? I really am ready for my luxury car. Like, I'm ready to go get my Benz, my Beamer, like, my Tesla. I don't even care what it is. I just want a luxury car, to be honest with y'all. Yeah, I do. I don't care. So [laughs] my little Altima ain't really gonna do much when I take it to the shop, but let's say I'm trading in my car. What do they ask you about? What is the fair market value of your car, right? They don't care what's your car, what you paid for when you pulled it off the lot. They're looking at "What is the value of it today?" So when it comes to you negotiating salary, like I said, our car values depreciate over time, but our skills, our experience, what we bring to the table and the workplace, it appreciates over time, all right? So the salary that you're making right now does not matter, and there are--I want you all to Google this to see what the law is for the state that you're in. In some laws, it is illegal for recruiters to even ask you what your current or previous salary is. Yes, it is illegal, and they should not be asking, and I can't wait for the day until it's illegal in every single freaking state, and that's going to help us get the pay that we're worth. And the other thing too is that we cannot internalize the salaries that our companies are paying us, especially when we know that we are being lowballed. I don't care if you are making $50,000 at your current job and this next job is for $70,000 when you know there are other people in your field with that same experience that are making 90K or above. You have to know what you're worth. You have to understand the current market value of what it is that you bring to the table, okay? Now, let's talk about compensation package. Once you talk about a salary number, you can't really--like, let's say you tell them you want 80, right, then you go and do some more research and you realize, like, "Dang, you know, I could've probably got 90, 95." You can't go back then and say, "You know what? I know what I said, but, like... you know, let's just forget that conversation happened. I really want, you know, 95. Like, what can y'all--" It's a little too late. You can try--you can try, okay, but just know that whatever salary you discuss, you might just have to take an L, right? Let that be a lesson learned. But before you talk salary, you need to be prepared for that conversation. You need to be prepared to talk about your salary needs and wants literally at the first conversation, the first conversation that you have with a recruiter. And let's talk about this too, because recruiters will call you at any time of the day. Y'all know that. They don't care about your schedule, and they will literally try to interview you on the spot. Don't let the recruiter do that. Don't let the recruiter play your [face?] like that, because you're not sitting there just waiting--you might just be sitting there waiting for them to call, but you don't want them to know that, right? It's kind of like dating. You can't always be available when he calls you, sis. Like, you gotta show that you got other stuff to do, you're not waiting on his call all day. So let's say a recruiter calls you for an interview or they're like, "Hey, I just want to have a quick conversation with you. Do you have a few minutes to chat?" "You know what, Karen? I'm in a very important work meeting. I'm under a strict deadline with my current employer. Let's chat tomorrow, hm? Can we talk on Wednesday?" Y'all, make these recruiters wait 24 to 48 hours, and then that way you can be prepared for that conversation, all right? So you need to be prepared to discuss salary when they bring it up, and I see that a lot of us are not prepared because we don't think that they're going to ask, and they will ask and they'll catch you off-guard. They will catch you off-guard, and then you fumble and try to look up salaries on Glassdoor real quick. No, schedule it in advance, and that also shows 1. that you are a loyal employee, you are committed to your current job--a recruiter is not gonna go back to the hiring manager and say, "You know what? I tried to talk to Bri, but she said she had deadlines at her current job. Like, what's that?" Right? No. If you're a high performer, like, you gotta get your work done regardless.All right. Well, I hope you enjoyed today's episode and got all the gems about common salary negotiation mistakes that you will commit to not doing. Tell your friends, okay? Tell your people. We are out here and we are getting this money. We're getting everything that we deserve in our careers. So this was just part one. Definitely just kind of wait up for part two. It's coming in about two weeks. And while you're here, go ahead and follow me on social media. Let me know if this was helpful. Send me a shout-out or something, you know? [laughs] You can find me on socials, Instagram and Twitter, @Latesha_Byrd. So I'm pretty easy to find, and I will check y'all next time. Bye.

Zach has the pleasure of sitting down with Mandy Price, co-founder and CEO of Kanarys, to have a conversation centered around the concepts of dissidence and technology. They take a deep dive into both, spotlighting what has changed in part due to recent tragic events, and Mandy talks a bit about the genesis of Kanarys and what initially got her into this line of work.Connect with Mandy on LinkedIn!Check out Kanarys.com.Connect with Kanarys on LinkedIn, Twitter, IG and Facebook.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we're here again. It is a Tuesday. That's why you're listening to my voice and why you're gonna be listening to a very dope conversation that we have with our guest today. As you know, Living Corporate--or maybe you don't know because, you know, maybe this is your first time listening, but for those who are first-time listeners, Living Corporate is a platform that centers and amplifies marginalized voices at work. We do this by having real talk in a corporate world by having conversations with black and brown thought leaders, movers and shakers, executives, influencers, whoever, taking fairly evergreen topics, but centering them around marginalized perspectives and experiences. And so with that being said, we have a really special guest, very excited to have her on the platform, Mandy Price. Mandy Price is the CEO and co-founder of the Dallas-based Kanarys Inc., a web platform that incorporates data and AI to foster diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. Mandy, welcome to the show. How are you doing? How are you feeling?Mandy: I'm doing great. How are you, Zach? It's so good to be here with you today.Zach: It's a pleasure to be with you as well. You know what? I'm doing well, because, you know, like we talked about very briefly off mic, you know, my daughter is beautiful. She's getting bigger and bigger every day. My wife is strong and in good spirits, and I'm doing okay. I'm thankful for the immediate things around me and the fact that there's peace in my immediate vicinity. At the same time I'm tired, right? I'm exhausted, and I look at the news and I look at, you know, the continued brutalization of people that look like us, and that's tiring, you know?Mandy: It's extremely tiring. It's traumatic. It's draining. You know, sometimes I struggle with the words to express my emotions because they're so full, and it's very, very difficult, but the one thing that is encouraging to me and my team and I'm sure to you and many others that have fought for marginalized voices to be heard more is that the discussions are starting to change. No longer are we kind of just looking at the systems. People are starting to talk about the disease. "How do we rid out the disease?" And we know that the issues that we see in corporate America and really the systemic inequities that we see throughout our society, because it's not just in corporate America, we see it in education, we see it in healthcare, obviously the criminal justice system. It's pervasive throughout our country, and we know that these kinds of surface level policies, be it in corporate America or any other setting, aren't gonna work, that we have to do the hard work, that we have to look at these issues from a systemic basis, and so as I hear people talking about institutional racism, systemic inequities, I'm encouraged, more encouraged than I've been in a long time, because often when we're in D&I circles I felt that we were speaking two different languages, you know? I've long felt that diversity and inclusion was about justice and fairness, that that's what people wanted, they wanted to work in a work environment that they knew was fair and that they would actually have a chance to succeed in that work environment and there weren't these barriers where they're not gonna get the same type of job assignments, their pay wasn't gonna be fair, they weren't gonna have the same promotion opportunities, and I think people are starting to think about D&I through that lens, which we have long advocated, as opposed to thinking of it from a programmatic sense, which is what we see so much in corporate D&I, which is "We're going to create environments--" Which are important, I don't want to take away fom that, but so much of the work was "We're going to celebrate Black History Month or Pride Month or these different kind of celebrations," and not to me really looking and doing the really, really hard work of "Are our systems, our policies, our procedures perpetuating these inequities that exist within our workplace?"Zach: I agree with you, and I think to your point--and I've talked about this a little bit, like, over the past couple of weeks, but the idea that a lot of this corporate D&I stuff, it's talking--1: it puts the effort and blame back on marginalized voices for being marginalized, so it's up to you to adjust your behavior to better assimilate with the white majority so that you're not so marginalized all the time and maybe people forget about the color of your skin because, you know, unconscious bias and then intersectionality, right? Like, it doesn't really--it doesn't come together for anything, and then also the idea of having a bunch of training and activities that don't really tie back into the systems within the organizations themselves. So when folks are saying words like systemic but then not offering systemic solutions, it brings me pause if they actually understand the language that they're using, you know what I mean? Mandy: Absolutely, and like I said, that's why I'm so encouraged by it, right? I think that's what everyone is seeing. We'll see. We are encouraged by the amount of companies [?], more encouraged by the companies that couple those statements with action, you know? There are many organizations that acknowledge that they have work to do [?] [and not?] only were they going to make donations or contributions to groups that are fighting racial inequities externally outside of their organizations, but many organizations have actually acknowledged that they have work to do internally and that they can't just put out this statement, and I think it's up to us to hold them to that, and it's going to help the organizations that are really worried about doing the right thing and the ones that, you know, similar to what we were talking about, the celebrations of Black History Month. "Okay, [?] D&I. We're done." The organizations that simply said, "Okay, it's Blackout Tuesday. We're gonna make our logo black and that's it. We did what we needed to do." People will know the organizations that are serious and are wanting to put in the work.Zach: That's right, and to that point I really want for folks to hear a little bit about the history of Kanarys, 'cause, you know, you've been featured on Crunchbase and Business Insider and Forbes and Afrotech just to name a few, so it's not like you're a stranger out here, but I'd like to hear more about, like, the history of Kanarys and also really the story about your funding, right? Because the amount of funding that you've been able to acquire has been pretty incredible. And so we've been having conversations in the VC space about there continuing to be a more critical lens being put on how little VCs engage black founders and entrepreneurs, and here you are just gathering quite a bit, so I'd love to give you some space for that.Mandy: Yeah. So let me start with the kind of what was the impetus for Kanarys, how did I get into this work. My background is I'm a lawyer by training. I practiced law for 12 years, but during the course of that time, like many black professionals, at first I was volun-told that I was gonna be on the diversity committee, but I had a passion for the work, and as I started to delve further and further in I started to volunteer more, but I think a lot of us, kind of going back to the conversation you had earlier where people of color were the only people of color or African-Americans within that space, it's "Mandy, don't you want to be on the diversity committee?" "Well, I never told you that, but sure." And so that's kind of how the work begun, was, you know, initially doing work on our firm's diversity committee as well as being a part of the ERG for black attorneys and, subsequently later as I moved firms, I also was on my firm's women's task force. And so my background as far as interest in diversity and inclusion goes back to really undergrad, where I did these issues, and the same thing when I was in law school. I worked at the Harvard Civil Rights Project, did a lot of work as well with the Law Review there, the Harvard Civil Rights Civil Liberties Law Review on issues, and so those issues were expansive, and then when I came into the corporate world I really got to see first-hand for myself the pervasive issues that exist within corporate America. And I felt like I was prepared for it. My parents, I think all of us kind of received this kind of training as far as what we need to do, survival skills really as far as to succeed in corporate America, so I was well-equipped, but over time I felt that it was very clear to me that the approaches that we were taking to diversity and inclusion were not going to solve anything on a systemic basis. It was very much, "Well, let me treat you," like you were saying, how to assimilate, how to kind of navigate the firm in a way that it's currently the process is and political structures work," and none of our D&I was really looking at things from an introspective basis. It was all based off of these kind of programs, you know, ERG celebrations and things of that nature, and so we know that we had 50% of women or we knew that our entry-level classes, as far as African-Americans and other people of color, were more diverse [?] people kind of ascended the ranks, but there was never discussion of "Well, why is that? Why is it that the number of black partners is so low?" I remember when I was working at a firm there was a 10-year span before there was a black partner [?], and so that kind of deep critical analysis of "Is there something within our policies that we need to change, that we need to look at as to why we're seeing these discrepancies?" I remember being on a hiring committee where there were discussions of "Well, how do we increase the diversity?" Not, again, looking at "Well, why do we keep losing people?" And I remember broaching the subject of, "Well, why don't we look at HBCUs?" And the immediate response was, "Well, we can't lower our standards." And so it was really clear to me when I looked at the kind of talent that all of the people of color, came from Harvard or Yale or Columbia, that there was these discrepancies even in the way talent was recruited, right, and when you would look at the backgrounds. And so I just started to really think about things on a more structural basis, and I wanted to create a platform where people could talk about these issues in a safe space, because I know conversations that I had in our ERG group were very different than the conversations that were had when leadership was involved, or even to be frank some of the chief diversity officers and things like that. People just felt that if HR or certain kind of leadership in the firm or the organization or the company were involved, then they weren't as free to have these conversations, and so how can we create a safe space where people can talk about these issues in a way where that we could learn from each other but then also really equip the organizations with information that they needed to really understand the structural issues and the everyday lived experiences that their employees were facing. So that's kind of how Kanarys evolved and how we grew the company. When you go to the platform, individuals are able to look at every organization from a D&I lens. Every company has a company profile page. We have around 600 companies that we're tracking data on right now, but we add to that every single month. You can go in and request that your company is one of the ones that we track. And so we look at it from a data and analytics perspective. We know that that is the language of companies, right? If someone kind of goes in and tells their own experience it's obviously real, but a lot of times those individuals are met with defensiveness, resistance, you know, all kinds of "Well, did that really happen?" And so you're going in there trying to prove that your lived experiences are actually something that others are facing within the organization. So it's extremely frustrating, right? You're already dealing with all kinds of microaggressions, and for many people overt racism, right? You know, there's covert and overt, and then to go in and actually try to address it only to be met with more resistance from HR or other leadership within your firm, we know that it's very, very daunting for individuals, so I know that what I had kind of started to do was I wouldn't talk about it with anyone. I just figured that this was the normal course [of how] people of color, especially African-Americans, were treated in the workplace, and I kind of just started to normalize everything, and I think as you look at the current events and the amount of people sharing their stories and--you know, none of the stories seem new to me, you know? It's like--you know, I read stories and I'm like, "Yep, that happened to me. That happened to me too." We just kind of become numb and think, "This is just what it's like," and we normalize it, and I think now we're starting to see people say, "This shouldn't be normal, and we have to speak up and talk about it," because although we, Zach, know as people of color, as African-Americans, our everyday lived experiences, we have to make sure that we amplify those voices and let everyone know that this is how we have to deal in corporate America every single day. And so I think it's more important now than ever, while people are actually looking at this from a systemic and institutional lens, that they know how pervasive this is within their organizations, and that's what we encourage people to do on Kanarys. You know, our platform was created to amplify and share these stories, these voices, so not only can you go to Kanarys and see company D&I policies, we track all things, like I said, from a very detailed data and analytics perspective, so you can see their demographics, how they change, you can see their D&I policies, but you can see stories and look at reviews from other people of color, other marginalized voices that have worked in those work environments, you know? When I was moving from one firm to the next, you know, I looked at all kinds of different platforms that show you culture and reviews and things like that from workplaces, but what stuck out to me was--I was like, "That's great. I'm glad to have happy hours, but what is it gonna be like for ME to work there," right? I knew my experiences were gonna be different, and so the things that I was looking for in an employer were very specific, and so that's why we created the platform, because we know that if you are a person of color, if you're LGBT, if you're disabled, there's certain marginalized voices that have different things that they're gonna want to look at for an employer, and so we provide them with that information and that data so they can really assess, "Is this place going to be open to me? Am I going to have the same opportunities? Am I gonna be able to feel included?" And that's the information we provide on Kanarys.Zach: So one, that's incredible, and I do think that--I've had conversations with folks in the past when it comes to how real change happens within these organizations, and I've had conversations with folks who say, you know, "Do you really think that corporate diversity and inclusion can really drive change, or do you think it's more external?" And I was like, "The reality is I believe that these organizations need external pressures coordinated with some folks internally who have the moral courage to do the right thing." And so I'm curious, as we talk about, like, this new season or this moment--I don't want to say it's a season, but it's certainly a moment because we're about a few weeks in--of folks, like, centering and talking about black experiences and really having to call out racism, and some of them even being bold enough, and right enough, to say "police brutality," do you anticipate an uptick, or have you already seen one, in activity on Kanarys as it pertains to folks sharing their stories and talking about these things?Mandy: So we have started to see an uptick. I think people are realizing that we have to speak up and speak out. Like I said, I think so far, for so long, we have normalized [it], we have just become so accustomed to the way things operated and the ability to see kind of widespread change, which is definitely desired, but it was "How is that gonna happen," right? And I think people realize now the importance of sharing their stories and ensuring that people really do know the day-to-day lived experiences. So we've definitely seen an uptick, but our platform was created for us to share our voices without this kind of muting that we see, especially, you know, on some of the traditional platforms. A lot of times black voices have been censored when they've talked about racism, when they've called out racist behavior, and we wanted to create something that never would mute those voices but would amplify that, because it's so important that we really do show the pervasive nature of the way that racism operates within our society. I think for some people, especially people who aren't black or who have not been marginalized, the way they view racism is very, very different. Racism is seen within this prism of malice or ill will or, you know, very concrete things. "I called someone the N word." That's racist, right? Those discrete actions, but understanding how racism actually presents itself in our society, and I think that we're seeing that--and we've known for a long time--there's been a disconnect, but I think the more we share these stories, it helps bring that enlightment to "Wow, I did not realize that someone's everyday experiences really have racism manifested [?] in every aspect of your life," and so I think we're seeing the importance of that, even though it's our normal, everyday life and we're like, "Well, of course. This has been like this for centuries," that's coming and taking on more of an importance, and one of the things that we do on the platform, because we know leaders talk through measurements and data, is we aggregate all of the responses, and we show them where there's statistical anomalies so that people can see the trends and the evidence where we're like, "Well, you know, this is just not statistically possible if there's not racism present," right? That's kind of what happens on the back end later once organizations go really, really far and maybe they're presented with some kind of class action litigation or things of that sort. People actually start doing the work, budget analysis, and looking at it, but that's what we do, we work with the companies on the data and say, you know, "What we're seeing in trends is there's some systemic issues within your organization, and so let's start proactively working on that now." So we're, like I said, very encouraged by what we're seeing, but I do think it's gonna take this push-pull, this not only working on things internally but all of us have to externally push organizations as well to know that this is important, that we're not gonna accept "check the box" or just the kind of marketing materials that we see sometimes, you know? "This is our D&I report." No, we're gonna say "These are our real experiences." It might not be all polished, but it's important that people know what it's really like and which organizations are taking it seriously to really create those atmospheres of true inclusion, equity and fairness.Zach: And so, you know, what I'm really curious about right now is as you're having these conversations, and even historically before this moment, have you noticed a certain level of fragility when you actually bring these stories and experiences and things back to the organizations and say, "Hey, look, this is what people are saying about you"? Are they fairly receptive? I would anticipate that there's a certain level of defensiveness, but I'm curious as to what your experience has been.Mandy: Traditionally there has been defensiveness, you know? There are companies that are more open than others, but overwhelmingly what we have seen is the desire to kind of hide anything that could be perceived as negative, and I think what companies are realizing is that people know things aren't perfect because they live 'em, you know? They live the experiences, so they know that there are issues, so they're not wanting, you know, this kind of sanitized view of what it's like to work there. They want to know that you have a commitment to do the hard work and to make the changes, and so that's what we've been, you know, like I said, talking about, just like you've been talking about the systemic nature of these issues for a long time, we've been talking about it for a long time and getting folks to realize that D&I is not marketing. It is not painting this pretty picture.Zach: It's not, right?Mandy: [laughs] It's not marketing, right, and so I think that there are organizations willing to do the hard work, but we've had many conversations that when we say, "This is what people are saying about your work environment. This is how your employees feel," and their response is, "How can we tie this with a bow and try to make it look pretty for people?" And so I think that's what organizations are beginning to see, is we don't want the pretty bows, we want the commitment, and we want the uncomfortable conversations, and we want people to lean into this work and say, "We're willing to look and really look at the disease and not the symptoms that we've all seen for years and years and years." We all know that the representation of blacks and other underrepresented groups is abysmal in corporate America. We know that talent does not reside in one demographic. So we've been seeing the symptoms for a long time. Anyone should have been able to look and say, and organizations right now should be able to look in there, into their workforce, and say "Wow, it's kind of amazing that all of our senior and mid-level management is of one demographic." That is a warning sign that there is something amiss within your organization. And for some reason I think it is, like, the prevalance of white supremacy, just like we said earlier, the way that people view racism is from a kind of altered lens. When we talk in those terms not everyone is envisioning the same thing. I think the same thing when we talk about white supremacy. I think some people envision the KKK, you know? So there's different kind of how we talk [?] on different levels of the D&I journey. There's definitely different levels that people are on as far as their consciousness of how these terms, what these meanings, how they permeate themselves in our society. So we know white supremacy isn't simply, you know, "I'm a member of the KKK," or that kind of white supremacy that I think sometimes people think when they hear that word. White supremacy is if you look at your organization structure and all of your leadership is white and you think that is normal in a society that's as diverse as ours, that's a red flag that there's a problem, because talent is evident everywhere. And so those are the kind of things that we're really hoping will lean into and be willing to have that uncomfortable conversation and do the hard work of saying, "There's something amiss here. If we live in a country as diverse as ours," especially in some of the environments where these companies are headquartered, they are incredibly diverse areas that don't match at all the demographics of what their workforce are.Zach: And here's the thing, right? So when you talk about leadership and leadership representation, it's a common thing, it's a commonly known thing that black and brown folks typically top out around that manager, senior manager level and that that, like, next tier of leadership--which is that, like, senior leader to junior VP level or whatever you want to call that, it thins out dramatically, and what I just described is a common thing across certainly most service industries in terms of, like, consulting and different types of client service professions, but that's a common thing, and, like, it's been common, and I'm really eager and just very curious to see how real this moment is and, like, is this just, like, a flash in the pan reaction thing or are we actually getting ready to have, like, some collective call to consciousness? That's what I'm most curious about, that part, and to your point around white supremacy and how folks typically will characterize white supremacy being, like, the KKK, and it's scary, because there are folks out there who sit in, like, very senior diversity, equity and inclusion positions who are just now coming into the reality of what white supremacy really is, what systemic racism is, you know? Are just now reading books from, like, Robin DiAngelo and Pamela Newkirk or, you know, like, studying black civil rights. You know, it's a telling time, and I said this before, it's really, like, a watershed moment for corporate D&I practices, you know what I mean?Mandy: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And, you know, I think we are hoping it's the latter of what you said, that it's a watershed moment and the kind of normal corporate D&I practice as usual is going to be turned on its head for the first time--well, I don't want to say first time because there's a lot of organizations that have been doing the hard work. I think, as I talk to many D&I professionals, they've advocated for these things. The problem is that they didn't have the support from their leadership. So when we talk about the watershe dmoment, It hink it's hopefully, you know, going forward D&I practitioners, the people that have been leaning into this work and advocating for this work, will get the support and the resources that they need from management, because that has been a lot of the disconnect. We know even right before kind of what we've seen with, you know, the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd and Breonna Taylor that have brought about is organizations were talking about cutting D&I. That was the first thing on the chopping block. You know, "We had the pandemic. Our business is losing--"Zach: That's the first thing to go every time.Mandy: Right, and so hopefully now organizations are beginning to see how critical these issues are. D&I shouldn't be first on the chopping block, and they need to provide the support and the resources to their D&I practitioners that they need to really do the work.Zach: Amen, amen. Now, Mandy, we've talked about Kanarys, you've talked about the functionality of the platform, but I haven't really given you space to, like, plug Kanarys, and so--you know, this is not an ad, but you're here, so you might as well just go ahead and, like, let us know exactly where we can find you and all that information there.Mandy: Yeah, sure. So you can go to www.kanarys.com, K-A-N-A-R-Y-S dot com, to look for--like I said, we have information on company profiles from a very deep D&I lens so people can go in and see not only things like the demographics or their very in-depth policies, non-discrimination policies. We do include that, but things like "Do they recruit HBCUs?" Very detailed information about kind of the structure of the company's D&I policies and efforts, as well as looking at the lived experiences of other marginalized, underrepresented voices within that workforce. We allow you to filter down by all kinds of D&I topics, so you can say "I want to look at things that definitely directly relate to child care issues or things related to the disabled community." It's all, again, from a D&I lens, so you're able to really filter down and see information at a very detailed level. We also include all kinds of resources to help you advocate for things within your workplace. So we do webinars that are more geared towards chief diversity officers, but we also have a resources page that includes things like materials if you're an ally, right, and trying to learn more about this. You know that there's been an extreme kind of reach out that we've never seen before for people saying, "What are the materials I can read? What are things I can learn more about?" We have those materials on our page, so feel free to share those with others if you are getting the same kind of outreach that we've seen so many other black Americans experiencing during this time, but we also have resources for ERG groups. So if you are in an organization where you're still trying to get your leadership to release a statement, you're still trying to get your leadership to think about "We can't just release a statement. We need to take some actions. We need to look internally and externally and think about ways we can really promote racial justice in this country." We have a couple templates, letters, that you can kind of format, reformat, to send to your leadership. So again, we're all about "How can we work together, use our collective voices, to really approach these issues from a systemic basis?"Zach: I love it, I love it. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. Thank you so much for listening. You know we do this every single week three times a week minimum, right? So we got the Tuesday episodes, we've got Tristan's Tips on Thursdays, and then we have either The Link Up with Latesha or See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger, and that doesn't even count, you know, some extra loosies we might drop in there depending on what the time or occasion may call for. You can check us out all over Beyonce's internet, right? You can just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up, okay? But if you want to make sure you connect with us on Instagram, it's @LivingCorporate. If you want to check us out on Twitter, it's @LivingCorp_Pod. And again, just type in Living Corporate for the website, but if you want the domains, living-corporate.com, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.net--we got all the livingcorporates, Mandy, all of 'em except for livingcorporate.com. We don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia has that one, so don't type that in and get mad at me, because I'm telling you right now [that] it's living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, or livingcorporate dot whatever else, okay? Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Mandy Price, CEO and founder of Kanarys. Peace.

On the twenty-ninth entry of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder and CEO of Byrd Career Consulting, shares some tips with us on what we should be looking for when we choose our career coach, questions that we should ask as we're making this decision and more. Remember, hiring a career coach is an investment, so make sure you perform your due diligence throughout the process by following the five pieces of advice Latesha offers in the show!Stop by LateshaByrd.com! Click here to check out Latesha's shop, and don't forget the 60% discount code GETTHECOINS.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Check out Latesha's YouTube channel.Connect with Byrd Career Consulting via LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTLatesha: Hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of The Link Up with Latesha. How y'all doing? How y'all doing out there? It is July, and we are halfway through 2020. It's like I feel like we're in 2025, but I do feel like I've aged about 10 years in, you know, these six months of 2020, but really excited to dive into today's episode. As you all know, I am a career coach. I've been doing this for several years at this point, and my company's served over 1,000 professionals in a variety of industries, but my passion is doing 1-on-1 career coaching. I love it so much. My clients inspire me. They're so ambitious, and they want the best for themselves, for their lives, for their careers, and it truly is an honor to be able to coach them and to be able to help my clients really achieve these newfound levels of success and fulfillment and happiness in their career. I just wrapped up enrolling some new clients for Q3, and I had a client tell me today, "You are my person. I already know, in the first few minutes of us speaking, that you are my coach," and that really meant a lot, a lot. You know, one thing that I've been really thinking about over the last few weeks as we've been in this, you know, quarantine or, you know, staying at home and social distancing, is I've got a lot more time to 1. really focus on healing and focus on deep learning and to hopefully--and I hope that you all are doing this, but stretching yourself mentally and spiritually and all of these things, and I was thinking, I said, "Man, I have actually had a coach literally for five years straight." So I started my career in 2013, I got my first coach in 2015, I quit corporate in 2018, and now I've been full-time on my own running my company for two and a half years full-time, and I've never not had a coach. All coaches need coaches, you know? That's a fact. And I wanted to talk today about what to look for when you're choosing a coach. You know, there's a lot of folks out here who will say, "Oh, I can coach you." You know, I think coach has definitely became an overused, you know, flashy term and job title, but it's so much more than that, and there are some coaches out here that have other people not believing in coaching, and I'm telling you, if you get connected to the right coach, oh, your life will change. It really will change. So I wanted to share with you all just some tips on what you should be looking for when you choose your coach, questions that you should ask as you're making this decision. It's an investment, and you do want to make sure that you are being coached by someone that you trust, someone that you respect, someone that's going to push you and challenge you and support you and believe in you and all of these things. So before we get into it, just a few updates on my end. If you are connected with me on social, please follow me on Twitter. That is where you can find me all day long. I give a lot of career tips, but sometimes I talk about natural hair, or I talk about what's going on in music, but a lot of my content is really around changing the way we see our work, our careers, and how we show up in life in general, and yeah, if you follow me, then you know we just enrolled hundreds of new members in the Career Chasers Members Club. It is an online community for women of color that are seeking community and support and accountability as they seek to achieve their career goals. So man, we enrolled over three hundred and--what, 370 new members? Currently we're at 473 members, and I am so honored to be working with each and every one of these ladies. Each month we have a new theme. July's theme is salary negotiation, and we have our first live webinar this Monday coming up. So if you want more information about that, please connect with me. It's great for the networking. It's great for this community of women, because a lot of us feel isolated at work, you know, and we feel lonely, and we don't know who we can talk to or who we can seek out for counsel or just to be there for us, and when I check in the Facebook group, man, it's just so inspiring. Like, I lowkey be, like, crying a little bit. I'm not even going to lie to y'all. Because, you know, the ladies in there are asking, like, "Hey, who can be a referral for me at this company?" or "Let's make sure we connect on LinkedIn," and someone else is in there saying, "Hey, I have an interview coming up. Do you have any tips?" So there's just so much love and support being shown and given in this community, and I'm really, really honored to have grown this membership to almost 500 people. It's amazing. I wanted to launch this community because I can only work with a small number of people with 1-on-1 coaching, and so this community is a movement. Like, we are just getting started. I'm talking we're gonna have merch, we're going to have seminars and conferences and, you know, when outside opens back up maybe some meet-ups, you know? Maybe, like, 2022. [laughs] For real. But, you know, there will be meet-ups and books, and man, y'all stay tuned. Let me just say that, okay? Y'all stay tuned. I'm going to grow this membership to 1,000 members by 2021, I kid you not, and this is a strong tribe of women, and we are out here getting it. So more to come on that, and let me just go ahead and get back into today's topic. So my first coach, he is amazing. His name is Peter, and we actually just recently reconnected last week, and he has always believed in me. I've never had someone like him believe in me that much. It was what I needed. I didn't realize at the time how much I needed him because I didn't really have the confidence that I thought that I had when it came to launching a business or growing in my career, and he really helped to instill this in me from very early on. So let me tell y'all how I actually met Peter. So I was at a conference in Vegas in 2015--and this actually might have been 2014 at the time. So I was late to a session. [laughs] If you know me, like, time is not on my side. I have no concept of time, that's what Badu said, and I'm sticking by that. So anyways, I'm like 5 minutes late to this session, and if you've been to a conference, then you know ain't nobody sitting in the first row. It's like being late to church. You've gotta go sit in the first row because ain't no other seats available. So I did my little walk of shame and I went and sat on the first row, and the topic was about setting career goals, and so we had to share with the person beside us--so I ended up walking to the first row, 'cause those were the only open seats, and I sat beside Peter. Didn't know anything about him. I said, "Hm, he's, you know, cool." I [?], and a part of the activity was to share our career goals. We had to take 30 seconds and just share with the person beside us who we are, what we wanted to do with our lives, et cetera, and so I did that, and he shared his goals with me, and I could tell, like, it was like a light switch. He kind of looked like, "Hm, okay." So we ended up connecting after the session and talked more, and he was like, "Yeah, I'm a coach. I would love to help you," because I had just had the idea of starting Byrd Career Consulting, and so he was like, "I'm gonna help you. Like, let's connect," and I'm like, "Okay, cool," and so he was my coach for about two and a half--two and a half years? Two years. I mean, really from the start, like, before I even had a website, before I even had my first paid client, he was there from the beginning. So I--oh, my gosh, I would not be where I am without Peter and all of the coaches that I've worked with. Like I said, I've had one since 2015, and it's shaped how I navigate my career, how I navigate business. I was able to move very strategically early on in my career because of my coaches, because of the coaches that I've had, and I'm a huge advocate of it. So I have five things that I want you all to really look for when it comes to hiring your coach. #1 is how and why did they get into coaching, okay? The how and the why. Again, there's a lot of folks out here online saying, "I'm a coach, I'm a coach, and I coach, and--" Do you? For real? Like, okay, why? Why did you do it? Why did you start it? And pay attention to what they're telling you, you know? If they're telling you, "I knew I could make some good money doing it," right? Listen to the reasons of why they got into it and how they got into it. Ask them about the mission. "What is your mission behind your business?" Okay? Like, "What is your mission?" I think every coach should have a very clear mission, and that mission should say who do they help, how do they help them, and what are the results. And ask them also what their vision is. "What is your vision for your company? What is your vision for your clients?" And the last important thing here on #1 is their values. So my coaching values are the three Cs, and that is Clarity, Confidence, and Control. When I break those down for my clients, they're like, "That's exactly what I need," right? So you really want to understand just the foundation that your coach has set for their business, and you want to make sure that there's alignment there. You want to make sure that there is clear alignment between their values and also your values, and if they say, "Well, I'm passionate about this," passion is great, but no, no, no, what is your coaching actually rooted in? So that's the first thing that you want to look for. The second one here is background. "What is your background? And what are your specialities?" So coaches have different things. Like, I focus on career coaching. Even if you break down career coaching, it could be a lot of different things. So I focus on, like I said, Clarity, Confidence, and Control, really from A to Z, from helping you figure out what you want to do in your career, what you actually bring to the table, what is alignment between who you want to become and the things that you want to do, alignment between that and then also the opportunities that are out there for you, and then once you figure that out--that's that Clarity--then we'll set a plan and strategy in place to help you get there, right? And then there's that Confidence piece, helping them build up their confidence to know that they actually deserve it, to know how to elaborate and communicate what they bring to the table. And the last C is control, where that's really focused on job search strategy, networking, having goals. So that's that job search strategy. Then there are the tangible things that go within that. So we'll look at the resume, LinkedIn, interview coaching, you know? Salary negotiation. Some of my clients are prepping for promotions at their company. They don't want to leave, but they're like, "Okay, I still want to make more money." Yeah, I mean, hey, more money. "I want to make more money. I want more influence at my company. I want more visibility. I want to create a bigger impact from that IC, individual contributor, to a leadership role." So, again, I am kind of well-versed in all of these areas, but then you also have coaches who do life coaching. You have coaches that do, I don't know, relationship coaching, those that focus on, you know, mindset coaching. So you do have to understand first, like, what do you actually need, what type of result are you looking to get out of working with a coach, and ask yourself are you willing to put in that work? But still, ask them what their specialties are, and then ask them about their background. Me personally, my background is in recruiting, so I understand what it actually looks like to go from getting a job, from applying, to interviewing, to landing, to negotiating. Why? Because I've done that in my corporate career. The third one here is results, results and transformation. I've actually done this, you know? I know that there's a lot of coaches out here that will say, "I can coach you how to get six figures," but, like, again, that goes back to the values. Like, what is that actually rooted in? And two, have you actually done this for yourself? I've had a lot of success in my corporate career, and those experiences along with coaching shape me, and now I have conversations with people every single day about their experiences. So I have a lot of knowledge and background, but I still have clear results and a clear transformation that I can speak to that my clients get from working with me. Don't be afraid to ask that coach, "What are the results? Tell me the clear results. What is the transformation? What does that look like? What differences do you see in your clients from when they first started working with you to when they are done working with you?" The next thing, #4, is what is their coaching style. Is it guided? Like, guided coaching, or is it more, like, free-form coaching, less structured? There's pros and cons to both. So some coaches, they like to meet you where you are. That's my coaching style. For Q3 moving forward it's going to be more guided so I can scale, but with that being said, some coaches will say, "Okay, Week 1 we're doing this, Week 2 we're doing this, Week 3," you know, and so forth, but for me and some other coaches, they're like, "No, you tell me your problem, you tell me the solution that you are looking to get, and then we'll figure out a plan together," right? So you have to figure out what works best for you. If you're the type where you really like someone to tell you exactly what from week to week to week is going to look like, then that might work for you, but understand that there may not be a lot of flexibility, like, if you want to work on something outside of those specific areas that they focus on. And #5 is access and communication. What does that look like? Do you have access to your coach outside of the coaching sessions? You know, are they able to support you before you have the next session? How much communication do you like to have? Most of my coaches I can text, you know, I can--I'm very respectful of others' time, so I won't call them at any time. Like, I just don't think that's respectful, but if we--so one of my business coaches, as I was opening up enrollment in the membership club, you know, she's really good at project management and marketing and email campaigns and those types of things, and so we hopped on the call really quickly to really talk through my email campaign, and she was very supportive, and so some coaches are like, "You don't have access to me. You can't talk to me in-between sessions." So, you know, understand that that might be something of importance to you. I like for my clients to email me or, you know, I take notes and follow up with them and, you know, we can kind of go back and forth via comments and Google Docs and that works for us too. So those are my five things. First is how and why did they get started - mission, vision, values, #2, what is their background - can they relate to what you are going through? #3 is the results and transformation. #4 is what is the structure of their program - is it guided or is it more free? And #5 is access and communication. I'll end it with this - your coach should support you every step of the way. They should encourage you. They should believe in you. They should be your biggest cheerleader. It should not be a [haze?] process, like, "You gotta do it this way," and what I've learned in even being certified in coaching is that it is not about me. It is about my client, and it's about helping them get to a decision on their own, but making sure that I'm asking the right questions and pulling out things that they may not even see in themselves that will help them to #1, own this process, to have full accountability for themselves and also to feel encouraged and empowered every step of the way. Your coach should be one of your biggest cheerleaders. So I hope this was helpful. Another question that I get a lot is certifications and stuff, like, does that matter. I am certified in life and career coaching, but I also have coaches that are not certified, and I'm just going to say this - there are people out here with degrees that are in jobs and they have no clue what they're doing, right? So if you really connect with your coach, if they speak to the transformation and results and they have that, you know, proven case studies, if they're able to answer the questions that I've shared with you all today, I'm going to encourage you to go for it, you know? It's kind of like, you know, working with a therapist. Try one coach, do a session or two, [and] if it doesn't work out try another. Like, you've got to find the right person for you, but you don't want to give up here. So I hope that is encouraging to you all, and I hope that you find the right coach. If this was helpful, then let me know, and I will talk to you all later. Peace.

On the seventy-third installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield graciously shares an offer to help you practice your interviewing skills for free. He's teamed up with AAA's The Auto Club Group to provide FREE 30 to 45-minute VIRTUAL mock interviews for up to 50 people from July 13th through July 17th. If you haven't interviewed in a while, need to work on your interview skills, want to practice virtual interviewing, or just want to receive feedback on your interview performance, check the show notes to sign up. But hurry - it's first come, first served!Secure your spot now for a virtual mock interview conducted by HR professionals of AAA's The Auto Club Group. Remember, only the first people will receive interview spots!https://bit.ly/2VYIeBeConnect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporate

Zach sits down with activist Tema Okun, author of "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race And Racism To People Who Don't Want To Know," to have a chat geared around white supremacy culture at work. She and Zach take a deep dive into a piece she wrote on the subject, dissecting several of the named characteristics present in the document. Check out the show notes to reference the piece and to find out more about her work!Connect with Tema on Twitter.Read her "White Supremacy Culture" piece by clicking here.Interested in her book, "The Emperor Has No Clothes?" Check it out on Amazon.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, we continue to live in really extraordinary times for some people. Frankly, these times have been this way for a while for many of us, but we have this, like, seemingly [?] to awareness and consciousness, and so I want to respect that. I want to respect where we are. And, you know, we've actually shifted up our interview schedule, and we're having more and more pointed conversations about the reality of white supremacy. So you've probably noticed a few episodes, and we're gonna continue to do that. You know, I shared on Twitter a couple days ago that, like, I think my baseline is just much angrier these days, and I'm at peace with that. And so with that all being said, you know, we have conversations on Living Corporate that center marginalized voices at work. We do that by engaging thought leaders from across the spectrum to really have just authentic discussions. Today we have a phenomenal guest, just like we do every single week, but it makes no less true that we have a great guest today, Dr. Tema Okun. Tema has spent many years working for the social justice community. For over 10 of those years she worked in partnership with the late and beloved Kenneth Jones as part of the Change [?] Training Group and now facilitates long-term anti-racism, anti-oppression work as a member of The DR Works Collaborative. She is a skilled [?] facilitator, bringing both an anti-racist lens and commitment to supporting personal growth and development within the context of institutional and community mission. She holds a BA from Oberland College, a Masters in Adult Education from NC State University, a doctorate at NC Greensboro, and is on the faculty of the educational leadership department at the National Louis University in Chicago. She is active in Middle East peace and justice work with Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions USA. Dr. Okun, how are you?Tema: I'm great, and I want to apologize upfront because some of those biographical facts are no longer true. I left the faculty of NLU several years ago, and I'm now active with the Jewish [Voice?] for Peace. Just to update everybody so that they don't think you or I are lying about [?].Zach: Thank you for correcting me, I appreciate that. So, you know, you've been in this work for quite a while. Like, we talked some months ago actually before my daughter was born, and--Tema: Oh, you have a beautiful daughter.Zach: Thank you very much. Yes, yes, you've seen her. Yeah, she looks great, and she's getting bigger every day. It's just so cool that she's changing all the time. What I'd like to know though is if you've ever seen anti-racist, anti-state-sanctioned violence protests like this in your lifetime in terms of just scale and scope?Tema: You know, you gave me that question ahead of time, and I want to say both yes and no, and I want to say yes because [?] during the Vietnam War protest time period and I lived during the AIDS protest time and the growth of the LGBTQ movement, and I do want to acknowledge that the grief and rage and resistance that we're seeing today is part of a longer legacy of people who have been full of grief and rage and resistance before us so that we don't isolate ourselves and we also take credit for this particular moment, which is unique in the sense of the reach, the brilliance, the clarity about the demands, and I'm very excited about, you know, the defund the police direction that this is taking, and so it's a yes and no answer. I'm so excited to be alive in this moment, and I feel like I was honored to live through those other moments as well.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because it's easy to kind of forget about the history of protest or the history of, like, anti-racism work, and so then, like, things kind of come in cycles, and so, you know, new voices come up in new generations and it's almost as if these conversations have never been had before, but, like, I'd like to get your perspective on really, like, just these concepts, the concept of whiteness and then also, like, the concept of anti-racism. And I know those are big questions. I'ma give you space, but I'd love just to hear you talk about that.Tema: Well, I think part of what's really unique about this moment is that these concepts are more broadly understood within the resistance movement that we're seeing now than they ever have been in my lifetime, so that part is definitely true. When I started doing this work a gazillion years ago, [?] years ago or so, you know, a lot of people--there was not what I would call... I don't want to use the word sophisticated, so the deep understanding about what whiteness is, how white supremacy operates, how white supremacy is the culture that we're swimming in, how it informs who we are although it doesn't define who we are. There was not that clarity, and I feel like I've been a part of the generation of people who helped think about, develop, and--and I'm not taking credit for it. I mean, I'm part of the wave of people who sort of understood that it was important to ground us in understanding that, understanding the ways that white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, all of these symptoms of oppression have really shaped who we are, and we need to understand how they operate if we're gonna do something different and have a different vision. So what I'll say is I think--and this might be one of the questions you're gonna ask later, but I think that the thing that we need to be careful about is that white supremacy and capitalism and patriarchy are very, very ingenious, and what we've seen happen in every movement that has ever occurred historically in our country is that they get diverted from a justice focus to an access focus and that capitalism and white supremacy know how to lure us just enough to say, "We're gonna let you have power of a certain extent in our institution. We're going to let you have access. We're going to say good things about you. But don't rock the boat too much." Leaders going, "Defund the police? It's too vague. You don't have a plan." You know, when we talk about access to healthcare, people don't demand [?]. It's like, "Yes, we have a vision. We have a vision of communities where the billions of dollars that are spent on militarized police are spent on schools and community centers and making sure people have enough food to eat." That's the vision that we have [?] defund the police, and that's what we're gonna do and not get distracted by--so part of the backlash is gonna be fierce and hateful and violent, but the more dangerous part of the backlash is gonna be accomodation.Zach: It's interesting, to your point around, like, respectability, right, and so how people, like, use the concept of civility, like, as a cudgel, right, to really stymie progression. You know, we had Dr. Robin DiAngelo on Living Corporate a few months ago, and we talked about her work in studying white fragility, and, you know, and--and, not but... not but, but I've listened to perspectives on how white fragility is not necessarily, you know, anti-racist work. Can you share your perspective on that?Tema: Sure. One of the dangers of our movement--and, you know, I love our movement, and I love many things about it. One of the dangers of our movement though is that we can get really [?] about what being in the movement or what activism is, and so my feeling is--so I'm 68 years old. I've been around a long time, and [?] point in my life is that we need it all. We need it all. This is not a competition about, you know, who's doing it right and who's doing it best and where the focus needs to be. So our frame, the way--The DR Works Collaborative has also been closed for about three or four years. All of our materials are on our website, which we can share the address later, but what we--our frame is that typically racism shows up on three levels, on the personal level, the ways that we are with each other and ourselves, on the cultura level, the beliefs and values and standards and norms of the groups of people that we're operating within, including sort of white supremacy culture overall, and then our institutional policies and procedures and practices, and one of our racial equity principles is that you have to work on all three levels. And so what I hear Robin saying, and I think it's really important, is that those of us are white who work pretty consistently on our conditioning, [?] the invitation that we are extended to join whiteness and, in joining whiteness, to both disconnect from people of color, disconnect from other white people and disconnect from ourselves, because that's what the invitation is. An example of white fragility is if you are angry, if you are in full grief about what's happening and my fragility says, "Well, you need to tone it down, because I can only accept your [?] if it comes to me in a certain kind of package," then I'm completely disconnected. I'm disconnected from you, and I'm disconnected from myself because I'm not allowing myself to feel my own grief and rage, right, because I'm so scared of yours I'm certainly not gonna feel my own. So I think what you're speaking to, you know, there's a thing that people say about white people and navelgazing and that we just like to navel gaze, and what I like to--you know, we like to agonize, and Maurice Mitchell talks about how his liberation or the liberation of black people, of people of color, is not tied up with my anxiety as a white person about getting it right. So I think that there's this balance between [?] our personal work, because all of us have invitations extended to us by white supremacy in some form or another. So all of us doing work on our internalized self and then continuing to be in the world and relationships and figuring out what our role in this resistance movement is. So it's not an either or. It's very much to me a both and, because if we don't do our personal work, then the way that we're gonna show up is just gonna replicate all of the [BLEEP] dynamics and clinging to power [?] and not understanding who we're accountable to and posturing and, you know, just things that aren't helpful, and fear of our fear and all of those things. I think it's a both and, right?Zach: I appreciate that, and I agree, right? I think one, white fragility is just so real, and it creates so many barriers and, frankly, causes so much harm in ways that we don't even consider, like, literally every single day, and because white supremacy is such a reality, white fragility impacts behavior of black and brown folks even when white people aren't around. So to make sure that those who are in power are examining and interrogating themselves, like, that's critical. That doesn't mean it's the only thing, but it's important to do.Tema: Yes. I think that living in white skin in a white supremacy culture obviously confers power and privilege, but not to everyone, and not in the same way, right? And so I think that it's really important, for me--'cause I'm speaking for myself--to understand how many white people are caught up in the same crapola of white supremacy and the ways that racism targets people of color, are caught up in that without [?] seeing it clearly. And I'm not saying that racism targets white people, I'm saying white people who are working class and poor or white people who have had no opportunity to understand how whiteness operates are swimming around in ways that are completely not in their self-interest, and, you know, are continually encouraged, for example, to look to middle class wealthy white people as their community when in fact their community are other people in the same economic and social situation that they're in. So, you know, I'd like to make sure we understand how many white people are hoodwinked by this whole thing as well and invited to participate in ways that make no sense [?].Zach: I think that's a really good point. One piece of literature that has really gotten, frankly, over the years consistent attention, but at this time it continues to get attention, is "White Supremacy Culture." It's something that you wrote, and we'll put the link in the show notes for everybody, but we're gonna walk through this research, this document. But before we do that, can you talk to us a little bit about how you arrived at the points that you made within the work that you wrote?Tema: Sure. So I've only written one book, and it's called "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race and Racism to People Who Don't Want to Know," and it basically was a chance for me to sit down and write all the things I and other colleagues have learned about teaching about race and racism to people. So that's what that book is, and White Supremacy Culture was written before the book, and I wrote it in either [?] or [?], so a long time ago. Kenneth and I were doing a lot of work on the West Coast, and I had just come from a People's Institute for Survival and Beyond workshop with Ron Chisholm and Daniel Buford and probably a few other people, and The People's Institute is based in New Orleans and is sort of, in my view, the grand daddy of people doing anti-racist education and training in my lifetime and so were our mentors and, you know, people that were doing the work that we were doing, so I was full of their wisdom when I wrote the piece, and I also had--and I can't remember the meaning, but I had just come from a meeting of predominantly white people where pretty much every dynamic in that sheet of paper, in that article, showed up, and I was frustrated beyond belief, and people say this, and this is my only experience of this phenomena, which is that "it wrote itself." Like, I didn't--I sat down at the computer and it wrote itself. Just sort of "This behavior, this behavior, this behavior, this behavior." It was like I was in a fury, and then I showed it to my mentor [?] Martinez, who was running a challenging white supremacy workshop at the time in the Bay Area, and she said, "You can't just list the terrible behaviors. You have to list antidotes. You have to talk about what to do," and so that was such good advice, and so I added those into it, and I will say--so it was written a long time ago. It was written without a class lens, which it needs, and it [?] things out, and it didn't--so I'm actually, in this moment, my project is creating a website rather than another article, but rather a website based on the article so that it can be more flexible. Lots of people have used it and adapted, and all the ways that people have used it and adapted it I'm gonna add a class lens, tell some stories, give examples. So that's my current project.Zach: Can we talk about, like--because in this document you essentially have these different characteristics. I'd like to walk through the characteristics that you list and then really just have you talk about each of them, because again, there are a lot of people that I respect, and I'm gonna shout-out Dr. Oni Blackstock because she's one of the most recent people who I saw tweeting about this and talking about this, but it's all over YouTube. Like, I don't know if you know this, but I just saw a video where somebody put this document up on a video and then, like, slow-scrolled it and talked about it, but I caught myself reading it and I said, "This is exactly like every work culture I've ever been a part of." So let's do this. Let's do each characteristic, and then you just kind of explain, you know, how these attitudes and behavior, you know, reinforce or drive white supremacy at work. Can we do that?Tema: Sure.Zach: So you start off with perfectionism. That's your first one.Tema: Mm-hmm. I started with that one I think probably because that's the one I'm the most guilty of myself. So, you know, I talk about how white supremacy culture is--the purpose of white supremacy is to disconnect us from each other [?] so that a few people can exert their control, cultural control, in ways that allow them to profit at our expense, and so perfectionism is this [idea?], it's very connected to professionalism, and it's this idea that there is a perfect way to do something, which is completely nonsense, and that there's somebody or some group of people who can determine what that is and encourage you to aspire to it. And then we internalize that, and I don't think I know a single person who actually feels completely comfortable with who they are and how they show up and how they're doing things, because the culture is so [?] I feel like we're continually falling short, and if we're continually falling short, then we have to buy products to make ourselves look better and feel better, and it's just a vicious cycle. And another thing I'll say about this list is that these things aren't just used to perpetuate racism and white supremacy and to target people of color in different ways at different times. They impact everybody, and they're toxic. There's nothing good about them at all at any time unless you're the one trying to control other people, and then you're so disconnected from yourself it's not even--Trump is a very good example of someone who's completely disconnected from anything. So I think that perfectionism is used as a tool of professionalism and as a tool to keep people from positions of power and also to keep people off balance about who they are and their worth and their value.Zach: You know, it's interesting. One of the things you say in here is, "Little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing, appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway."Tema: Mm-hmm, yeah, exactly. And then the way that we internalize that, even when we're fighting hard not to. You know, I was talking to a friend yesterday who was applying for a position at a foundation. It's completely, completely clear to me, and I think to her, that she is not only qualified for the job, she is over-qualified for the job, and my guess is they won't hire her because it's clear to them too, you know? And it's so pernicious, the way that that works, where a lot of white people here who are not called to account for our lack of understanding about how racism and white supremacy works because it's not ever part of our job qualifications. No one is evaluating us based on our ability to understand how that works, and we're about to invite somebody in who does understand, and that makes us really uncomfortable, so maybe [?] somebody who's gonna not make us feel uncomfortable all the time. That's part of how that works.Zach: And so it's interesting. So I was about to move to sense of urgency, but to your point, in the recommended antidotes for racism you have "develop a culture of appreciation where the organization takes time to make sure the people's work and efforts are appreciated. Develop a learning organization where it's expected that everyone will make mistakes and those mistakes offer an opportunity for learning." It's interesting, even in organizations where they'll say things like, "Oh, it's okay to make mistakes," I've noticed that--and this is a common experience for most black folks at work, black and brown people to be clear, we don't have the same grace to make mistakes. It's interesting because--and I've had this conversation already with a colleague, but there was a time at work I put a PowerPoint together, and one I just think PowerPoints overall have to be one of the biggest examples of, like, subjectivity to the max, because what you think is a good PowerPoint or nice design I may genuinely think is abhorrent. I may really not like the design of your PowerPoint, right? Like, I might hate it. But anyway, I did a PowerPoint. Someone didn't like it, and so then that PowerPoint and then me, in their eyes, not doing well on a PowerPoint, was then a justification for me to blocked from [a multitude] of opportunities in very public ways, right? And so it's like, what does it look like to really create objective, safe, equitable spaces for everybody?Tema: Right. And what does it look like for that particular person to admit to themselves that they may not have the corner on how something needs to be done? I mean, I remember--each one of these, there's so much that's also interconnected, and two things come to mind. I remember Kenneth--so Kenneth was my mentor and my colleague for 12 years, and he died way too early in 2004, but as we were working together I remembered saying to him... 'cause my style, we were both about the same age, and my [?] style is sometimes to say or admit I've made a mistake or to show some vulnerability, and I said to Kenneth, "You never do that, you never show any vulnerability." "Tema, I can't afford to do that. People are watching me, waiting for me to make a mistake. So even if I make one, I'm not gonna say that I did because people are ready to pounce all over me for it." You know, and again, just another example of how long it took me to learn that, he had to sort of say that out loud to me [?]. So yeah, I think there's that part of it, and I had another thought, but I'm sure it will come to me as we keep talking. So here's the other story, which was that I seemed to be the details-oriented person, and sometimes I'd get really frustrated because I felt like he wasn't paying attention to, like, air fare or flights or when we had to be somewhere, and so I started to develop a little bit of an attitude about how I was doing so much more than he was, more important [?], and we were having a discussion and he said something to me like, "I talked to So-and-so the other day," and I said, "So-and-so? They were in our training a year ago," and he went, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You're talking to them now?" "Oh, yeah, yeah," and then he proceeded to tell me that he was fostering relationships with most people in almost all the trainings over time and that that's what he did, and it just was such a lightbulb moment for me. I'm like, "Oh, my God. This man," who was a brilliant trainer, there was no question about that, "is leading and offering things that I've never even dreamt of being able to lead or offer that makes such a difference in this work, while I'm sitting here feeling all superior because I know how to schedule a plane flight." It was just like... so many of us, and so many white people in particular, but so many of us are walking around thinking that we know how things should work when we don't know at all, [?] open to how other ways of doing might actually offer so much more. So yeah.Zach: I appreciate that, and that resonates with me too because I think about, especially if you have, like, these majority white organizations, you know, again, people attract, or they're attracted, to people that are like them, right? And that's not just in appearance, but also in, like, ways of thinking and doing, and so, like, if you're in this space, the majority are really good at tasks or really good at [?] things off a box, if there's someone who can do those things but that's just not their wiring, then that person's automatically seen as a problem or as inferior in some way. In reality it's like, "Okay, I don't need--there's eight of y'all who tick off boxes and who are very, like, transactional. Is it possible for me to be different and at the same time be just as good if not add more value than you do perhaps?" I think, for me transparently, one of the biggest mistakes I think I've made in my career is that I think I've been too transparent and vulnerable about me wanting to learn and grow, 'cause I say "Hey, I'd like to learn this. I don't know this," but I've learned, in the spirit of perfectionism, when you communicate that you don't know something or you're new to something, I've just learned that we don't know, black and marginalized people, just don't have the grace to communicate that they don't know. They don't have the grace to grow. They just don't.Tema: Yeah, and it's infuriating. It's completely infuriating, and it's a complete loss. I think the thing that I would like to get across with my audience, my commitment to working with other white people, is for those of us listening to this to understand the deep violence in that, you know? In working side-by-side with people who feel like they are not allowed to offer their vulnerability or their desire to grow and learn because--my God, it's intense.Zach: So you have a lot of terms here, and you know, we might have to do a part two, but I want to see how many of these we can get through so I'm gonna back up and let you talk more. Sense of urgency.Tema: I think that, again, the point of urgency--so every organization I've ever worked with operates with a huge sense of urgency and everything is so critically important right this minute, and it completely perpetuates racism because--the example I'll give is we were doing work with an organization of mostly lawyers that do very good work on a state-wide level, and they had just sort of unpacked all the ways in which [?] of color on the staff and in the community that they served were not feeling heard, were not included in decision making, their ideas were shut down, sort of what we were just talking about, and then an emergency came up, and I think there might have been an arrest, but something urgent happened within the community, and the white leadership, the white lawyers, felt like they had to respond right this minute and if they didn't the organization would be at stake, and right in front of our eyes all of the dynamics were playing out in front of us, and the two of us who were facilitating the workshop tried to suggest to them, "This is happening right in front of our eyes. We know that this is urgent, and we suggest that you sit down and you take a breath and you understand there are other people in the community who are handling it in this moment and that what you all need to do is really sit and take a breath and see how you can approach this differently," and so they just repeated the--you know, you could see it. The white people were circled around, making all these decisions, and the people of color were [?] them on the outside, trying to listen in and then getting disgusted and walking away, and it was just--when things are urgent, if we're not paying attention and we haven't set up the relationships and we haven't set up the procedures to say when things get literally urgent this is what we're gonna do, when things feel urgent but they aren't this is what we're gonna do. Is this really as urgent as we think it is? Because it's urgent we need to take a breath, we need to take a breath and make sure that we're all in this together rather than walking all over each other in our attempt to prove something, which is to prove that, like, we're the organization that's gonna respond like that, even if the way that we respond, you know, tramples over people. And then I think a lot of us internalize urgency. A lot of white people feel like, "If we don't act right now, if I don't fix this right now, then I'm not gonna be able to prove that I'm a good white person," so then we go in and fix something and we make it worse because we haven't stopped to take a breath to consult with other people, to see if our intuition, our impulse is actually the right one. I've seen that happen over and over and over again.Zach: Let's talk about quantity over quality.Tema: Well, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and we love to measure things, and we love to believe that value has to do with amounts of things, usually money. And again, so I see some of the [thunder patterns?], all of the thunder patterns that I've seen in my lifetime and work, is thunders trying to get people to prove that they're effective by the numbers of things. "How many people did you impact?" Not the quality of things, not the depth of things, not the sustainability of things but, you know, the number of things, which is such a limited measure of how we're doing, and the research I've done on culture shift shows that it's actually not a numbers game. We don't need a majority of people to shift culture. We need deep relationships, we need generational change, we need clusters of people coming to new beliefs simultaneously, but they don't have to be a majority. So I just think it's good to be able to have a sense of what we think progress is, but often we aim towards--I do a lot of work in schools, and the story I often tell--so I'm sorry if anyone's heard this before--is how our schools often, if not always, have a story that what they're trying to do is prepare students for success, and what they mean by that is "We want students to stay in school, get good grades, graduate, get a job, and go shopping, and if we can measure that we've done that it doesn't matter if our students are leading meaningful lives. We're not measuring that. We're not measuring if students know how to find themselves. We're not measuring if students have gotten in touch with their spiritual side or their artistic side. We're not measuring whether students know how to be in a relationship with themselves and with each other. We're not measuring the things that matter, you know? We just don't know how to measure those things. We're obsessed with graduation rates and, you know, how much money people are making.Zach: You have another one here about worship of the written word.Tema: Mm-hmm. So I'll give an example if you'll give an example, but this is our history, sort of the theft of indigenous land, the theft of land from Mexico, the broken treaties, the enslavement of people, it's all built on worship of the written word and the whole, you know, all of our Southwest and Midwest states that became US property after the Mexican-American War and the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, all of that theft of land was made possible because Congress passed all kinds of legislation requiring people to [?], and most people lived in a culture where that's not how people [?] that they owned land. So that's just one example, and just the ways that we hide behind "If it's not written down, then it doesn't exist." "It's only wisdom if it's written down," and then only if it's written down by certain people. What comes to mind for you?Zach: So here's where I found the application interesting. So there's a way that I believe those in power and in the majority will essentially place the burden on the oppressed to have evidence, like, tangible, documented evidence, but then in the instances where that evidence is undeniable, then at best it simply just saves that oppressed person from being harmed, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee justice for that oppressed person.Tema: Yeah, or they'll say it's not written right or the form was not filled out correctly or--Zach: Right, or "We still don't have all the facts," or "What about the other person's side?" And so there's still this--it's such a jig, because you're gonna lose, but the question is "While this may have saved you from getting fired, it's not actually going to absolve your name completely after all. These other people said something." Right?Tema: I think about when Bhagat Singh Thind sued the Supreme Court for citizenship, and he was from India, and he was suing based on how science classified people from India as Caucasoids, and the year before a Japanese person who had done the same thing lost the case because people from Japan were classified as mongoloids, so they were not white, but the Supreme Court said, "Well, it's true science classifies you as Caucasoids, but you're not seen as white by the common white man, therefore you're not white." So it's the written word, but also the word is, as you said, controlled and considered by those in power, and whose written words will be paid attention to and whose won't?Zach: Yeah. I think about Breonna Taylor. We know that she was murdered by the state in her own bed, but then when you go back and you look at the report it's completely blank, right? And so, like, anybody with good sense should be able to understand that Breonna Taylor's bullet-ridden body and that piece of paper are not congruent. So one of those [?] is lying. Breonna's own blood testifies that she is not lying, so why are Breonna Taylor's murderers still free? It's the worship of the written word.Tema: Yeah. Sandra Bland, all of that, yeah.Zach: Yeah, Sandra Bland as well, right? And countless others. Tony McDade. And it's frustrating, but I think about that. I think about how manipulative and--you used the word pernicious, it's a really appropriate word in that, you know, documentation really matters until it doesn't. I always tell marginalized people to document everything, because again, while documentation might not ever hold any accountable, it at the very least can make sure that you don't get fired, or it can delay you getting fired because you have something, hard evidence, that if someone says something, you're like, "Well, what you're saying is clearly not true." Okay, so paternalism was another characteristic that you had in your research.Tema: Yeah. I'm gonna bow here to a man named Paul Kibble, who does a lot of writing on Christian hegemony. It's just the way in which--and so many of these intersect, and I'm adding one called "qualified." I don't know if that's on the list explicitly there, but it's the way in which white people assume that, because we're white, we are qualified to act and make decisions that are outside our lived experience, and I think about--when I taught it, when I wasn't on the faculty in educational leadership, when I taught undergraduate students in education, you know, most of them are young, white women who were coming into teaching because they loved to--and please know I admire teachers beyond belief because they work so hard for so little, and yet they come in, these young white women come in very idealistic and very hopeful, and they have no experience, most of them, working with people of color and very little preparation for doing that, and yet have not internalized that they're not at all qualified to do the job, and the education system hasn't internalized that either, and so just the ways in which we've got almost every [?] institution is operating out of a sense of paternalism. Like, "We know what's better for you without consulting you or asking you about your lived experience." And I think about doing work with the department of social services where it's about a woman who, in order to make it through her week, had to visit 11 different offices in the Department of Social Services to account for herself, you know? And it's the way in which--if we look at Congress. Banks are completely involved in writing policies having to do with banks. Poor people and working people have no say in policies that impact their lives, and the laws that impact their lives are written by people who think that they need to be punished for being working class and poor or who think that they need to be exploited or, you know, who have absolutely no care or concern or lived experience, for the most part, of what it means to be black, brown, working class poor, and paternalism is just this idea that "We know better than you," and it can be very deeply embedded in religious thinking, in Christian thinking, and [?]--it's just sort of the idea that "We know best. We're going to convert you to our ways," and that's white supremacy is all about. The goal here [?] is "Act like us if we can exploit you more that way." Assimilation, and if not assimilation exploitation and violence, you know? It's just all based on this idea that we know better, and one of the things that we know better is that [class?] is more important than people.Zach: I think that's true. I think it comes down to a lot of power and control. So, you know, one of my larger concerns right now, even as corporations and larger organizations are looking at Black Lives Matter and people are taking these statements and stances, and organizations are mobilizing their employee resource groups and different things to have these conversations and do real talk and all this kind of stuff, and how much of this is about really hearing and including their marginalized employees, and how much of this is about, like, really making sure that you're retooling, reshaping your organization to be equitable and inclusive, or how much of this is really about you just trying to put some gates and borders around this to maintain control, right? That's my biggest concern.Tema: So I think there's two parts to this. So I think there can be conscious paternalism and there can be unconscious paternalism, and probably lots of gray [?] in between, and so I for one completely hate the terms diversity and [?] because I don't think that they--it's about window-dressing or table-dressing or whatever term you want to use. It doesn't ask the question, "What are we including people into?" Because if we were to ask that question, we would have to admit that a lot of what we're inviting people into is toxic. So it's not about including people. It's about reshaping everything, and I think that's what I was talking about in terms of what we need to be wary of, that some of the backlash is going to be very direct and hateful. Now, a lot of it is gonna be about accommodation, and forget about justice, let's just accommodate, accommodate, accommodate. And paternalism really plays a role there, and we can see it reflected in older leaders often, people who have been around a long time, who are scared they're gonna lose power by these young people who are coming up full of fervor and demanding justice, and some of us have accommodated for so long in order to just often survive that we've forgotten what the goal is, and some of the paternalism is--I'll speak for myself--is internalized entitlement, the internalized belief that I'm qualified to do things I'm not qualified to do, and it didn't require any intent on my part. And I tell a story on the website, and it might be in the book I can't remember, of essentially pushing my black colleague aside in an environment where I knew absolutely everything. This was a different colleague, a colleague named Kamayu [sp] [?], an incredible organizer, and he was in [?], the room was packed full of African-American people living in the [?], economically poor, culturally incredibly genius and rich, and, you know, I didn't think he was doing a good job, so I walked up to the front and I pushed him aside, and I didn't know anything about [?] in the [?], right? But I had this instinct in my body that he wasn't doing it and I needed to fix it. It was--so there's that, the way I internalized this paternalism and this idea that I know how to do things. We just cause so much harm, and again, it's a complete tribute to Kamayu that we're still friends. He actually didn't say anything to me for years, and finally I started to think about it and I'm like, "Kamayu, what about that day?" And he went, "Oh, I figured you'd figure it out sooner or later." You know? So there were, like, five years in there where Kamayu was not--I was not in a genuine relationship with him because he was waiting for me to figure it out, you know?Zach: To your example, I think about it in ways that, like--so it's interesting, you have these cultures that are very racist, right? Like, you have these organizations that have harmed black people for a while, but it just so happens that there's a certain confluence of events that are forcing organizations that have been historically harmful to black and brown people, now they're having to do things differently. But what's challenging, what's interesting, is that some of the people who just six months ago were very harmful are now self-appointing themselves as leaders to have these conversations, right? And, like, there's a certain--of course that's emotionally inauthentic, but I think there's also a certain level of entitlement and paternalism in that.Tema: Yeah, totally. And again, I think--so this is my job, it's not your job, but as someone who identifies as white, who is white, who lives a white life and thinks a lot about what it means to be in relationships with other white people, part of [my job?] is to encourage myself and other white people to think about, "What are we doing here?" And what is the cost to you of this posturing, and what would it be like for you to actually authentically sit down with yourself and go, "Okay, what am I afraid of? What kind of help do I need? What are the things I really need to change?" And I think all of us need to develop a much better practice of what I would call radical honesty with ourselves about why we want to live in a world where we actually are able to have authentic relationships with other people and ourselves and live in a world where people are well-cared for and people can thrive and we don't have to be so afraid of [?] and all these other things. So yeah.Zach: So I'ma pick one last one. Fear of open conflict.Tema: Yeah, that goes back to perfectionism and some of the other things that we talked about. The story I'll tell is that--well, it's a common story, which is that some racism is happening, and rather than deal with the racism that's happening we will label or target the person who's naming it, and sometimes that happens to white people too because we're so afraid of the truth-telling that's gonna happen of how racism is happening. So it's just this--we're too afraid to talk about things that are real and are gonna have emotion attached to them and might lead us, as white people, to feel like we've done something wrong or that we may even essentially be bad in some kind of way, so let's not talk about it. Let's blame the person who's trying to make us uncomfortable. This is attached to "right to comfort." Let's blame the people who are calling us in and say that there's something wrong with them so we don't have to feel our feelings, we don't have to be uncomfortable, we don't have to look at ourselves. We can stay in what feels like control, and it's such a--again, it does such harm, to other people and also to ourselves. The ability to sort of say, "Bring it on. Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. That was so racist? Okay, tell me more. I want to know. Tell me more." It's such a different energy. It's opening. Or "You're racist." "No, I'm not." "Yes, you are." "No, I'm not." There's nowhere--it's, like, you're building conflict and you're not--it's like, "So tell me. How am I racist? Yeah, I want to know, because I think I probably am. So tell me." There's so much more fruit there, even if you end up not agreeing with what they say it's like there's more fruit, more juice, more ability to--it's like, "We can handle this. We can sit in this discomfort, and in fact, if we don't learn to do that we're not gonna get anywhere."Zach: But see, I think that in the context of, like, a business, like, the fear with that is that if I admit that I'm racist, if I admit that I've harmed you, then that gives you byway to pursue the company, right? And so there's this fear of creating risk or opening your company up, opening yourself up to risk by admitting your faults, you know?Tema: So people just need to figure out a way to deal with that.Zach: [laughs] I love how you just dismiss that.Tema: Oh, come on. I don't--you know, legalese and laws and policies [?] in service of connection and not in service of fear and abuse, right? It's like Trump saying you can only come to the thing if you're not gonna sue me if you get the coronavirus. Like, no. And I would also say, for me, one of the racial equity principles [?], you'll see this list of characteristics, and you'll also see our racial equity principles, and one of the ones I love the most is called Organizing Mind, and what we mean by that is you start with the chorus. People go, "Oh, you're preaching to the chorus," and I go yes, because our chorus is very out of tune, so let's get in tune, and then we can start preaching to people outside the chorus and bring them into the chorus. So it's, like, start with the people who want you want, and figure out what your power is, figure out the risk that you're willing to take, and from there each one reach one teach one, as Sharon Martinez would say. So in a corporate environment it's, like, figuring out what are the roadblocks that we need to get rid of so we can actually do this, or whwere are we willing to have authentic conversations regardless of the risk and can we start doing that? So figure out what's within your power to do and do it. Don't wait for permission. Don't wait for--you know, there are lots of things that we can do and build our power that way without people giving us permission to do it, as we are witnessing across the country and across the globe, right? All these beautiful people, many young people, not waiting for permission. Bringing down statues, [?], and it's a beautiful thing to see right now.Zach: It's brought me joy, frankly, to see. Dr. Okun, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I just want to thank you so much for being a guest. I want to make sure that everybody knows that the document that we were walking through and that I picked a few characteristics out of for our guest to beautifully expand upon is gonna be in the show notes, and we're going to also be promoting it--you'll see it this week on social media and things of that nature, so make sure that you check it out. This has been Living Corporate. You know, we do this every single week. We're having conversations, real talk in a corporate world, that center and amplify marginalized voices at work. We'll make sure to catch you all next time. In the meantime between now and next time, we're all over Beyonce's internet. You just type in Living Corporate, we'll pop up. Catch us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, and man, if you have anything you want to talk to us about, just contact us through the website, living-corporate.com. Please say the dash--living dash corporate dot com. 'Til next time, y'all, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Tema Okun, activist, educator, speaker, organizer. Peace.

On the seventy-second entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about how to correct some of the common outreach mistakes you might be making. With unemployment levels being so high the market is quite competitive, so networking is an even more vital part of your job search. Watch out for these mistakes and make some adjustments in your outreach to increase your chances of a response!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What’s going on Living Corporate? It’s Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week I want to talk about some of the common outreach mistakes you might be making.Have you ever reached out to a recruiter, someone on LinkedIn, or just someone you want to connect with and they never responded? Believe me, I’ve been there. There’s a couple of common mistakes that many us make when we reach out that may be blocking us from our blessings.First, sending a generic message. I can almost guarantee that you don’t like to receive generic messages, so why would you send one? Make sure that each message you send out is tailored to the person that you’re reaching out to. This goes for both email and LinkedIn!The next mistake is asking for something in your initial email, besides time. Outside of requesting 15-30 minutes of their time, you shouldn’t be asking for a referral or to be considered for open roles. Instead, figure out where you can provide value and give your contact some time to get to know you, what challenges you’re facing, and how they can assist.The final mistake is thinking that the purpose behind every connection is that the person will get you a job. If this is what you think, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Your contact is going to think you’re only trying to use them and no one likes to feel used. Make sure you display genuine interest in the person, what they do, and the industry you’re trying to go into. Remember, each interaction is a chance for you to gain information and insight that can help you tailor your resume, help you with answers in interviews, and even prepare you for conversations with other professionals within your industry. Landing the referral is just a bonus of developing genuine relationships.With the unemployment levels being so high, that means the market is quite competitive so networking is an even more vital part of your job search. Watch out for these mistakes and make some adjustments in your outreach to increase your chances of a response!This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach welcomes Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. back to the podcast to talk about the concept of centering Black experiences. She and Zach discuss the tremendous impact of enduring continuous emotional labor and implore any and all aspiring allies and/or white executives to compensate Black people when they're asked to speak about their feelings, and Dr. Gassam also shares a bit about both her podcast and new book, both titled "Dirty Diversity" - check the show notes if you'd like to find out more!Learn more about (and buy!) Dr. Gassam's book "Dirty Diversity" on Amazon or Audible.Interested in the Dirty Diversity podcast? Check it out on her website.Read Dr. Gassam's "Dear Companies: Your BLM Posts Are Cute But We Want To See Policy Change" piece on Forbes.Connect with Dr. Gassam on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know, you know what we do. We have real talk in a corporate world, and we do that by centering marginalized voices so that we can actually amplify and center marginalized experiences at work, right? And so we're having these conversations with thought leaders, with educators, with writers, with executives, with entrepreneurs and social influencers and activists and elected officials - anybody, really - all around, again, centering and amplifying the most marginalized voices in the workplace, and so today we have a returning guest - frankly, a friend of the show, you know what I mean? Dr. Janice Gassam. Dr. Janice Gassam is an educator, public speaker, a consultant, and a senior contributor with Forbes. Dr. Gassam, how's it going?Dr. Gassam: It is going well. Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate you amplifying my voice and consistently amplifying my work. I love that we, like, you know, have built this support system, and I think that's so important, that we are, as quote-unquote marginalized people, we're supporting each other.Zach: Well, I mean, it's not--you make it very easy. You do great work, and your work really is what needs to be centered and focused on right now. I'm really curious, you know, as white folks are apparently learning what racism is for the first time, how have your--what does it look like in your field? Like, are you getting more requests right now? I know last time you were on the podcast we talked about the fact that a lot of folks would ask you not to talk about race. You know, what does it look like when you have clients reach out to you with requests?Dr. Gassam: Wow, that's a great question, and things have blown up and have exploded as far as I've been getting so many requests for racial equity workshops, and that's--you know, I'm partial to those workshops. Those are my favorite, but it's just so ironic because even, you know, less than a year or so ago I would have these discovery calls with clients, you know, who want me to come in and do a workshop or a training, and they have specifically said, "Do not talk about white privilege. Do not talk about race." They preferred me talking about the safe subjects like emotional intelligence, which I'm fine with talking about that, but I think that it's limiting in that if you're not willing to engage in the conversation nothing is going to change. So I'm very--I'm cautiously optimistic, and I hope that the momentum is still here after the summer is over. And I try to impress upon these leaders that, like, one workshop is not gonna change anything. Whether it's me or somebody else, you need to be bringing people in to facilitate to these continuous conversations. I think that that is really important, and people seem like they're starting to get it, so, you know, I'm just excited about this moment in time right now. I've never been busy like this before since my career started. So I think it's an exciting moment, and I'm trying to take advantage of it.Zach: And so let's talk about that. So, like, you know, again, in the past people would say, "Don't talk about white privilege, don't talk about Black experiences, Black female experiences. Talk about gender, but don't intersect that at all with ethnicity (or) race." What does it look like now when people hit you up? Like, what are they actually saying?Dr. Gassam: So, you know, I get emails primarily, and they're like, "Hey, my company wants to--" And what's funny, Zach, is that, like, there's such a sense of urgency now, you know? These same companies that--I'm gonna be [?]. I'm gonna keep it 100,000% real. Some of the same companies that didn't have money once COVID hit magically found the budget. You know, I had things lined up. And I get it, you know? They came back to me in March and April and said, "We don't have the budget." Cool. So now in June y'all found the budget, I guess. You know? Which I'm like, "Obviously you're realizing diversity, equity and inclusion is a priority." So it's usually--you know, the requests come in the form of an email. I appreciate that people have really been sharing my content on social media. So people often find me either through LinkedIn or through Instagram and they say, "Hey, I saw you talk about race, and we need this at our company. So when can you find a time to speak? How much do you charge for a workshop? What do your workshops entail?" So that's pretty much what it seems like, but with some of these requests it seems like there's such a sense of urgency, and that worries me a little bit because I think that it's not, like, a quick Band-Aid. You know, I'm happy to do the workshop. I've been doing these workshops. I've done many workshops, and I already know the structure and everything. However, I think that you have to have long-term objectives, and I don't know if a lot of these organizations have long-term objectives. It just seems like they want to do something so it looks like they're not doing nothing.Zach: Right, right. What is concerning about that, anxiety-inducing for me transparently, right, is it's very reactionary, and it reminds me of Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. Like, that portion where he talks about the white moderate and, like, how they're more concerned about false peace [than] with an absence of justice. And so even now in this moment I'm like, "Okay, are y'all just trying to mobilize something really quick just to say that y'all did something so that you don't have uprisings within your companies, or are you really looking to create equitable and inclusive working environments, not just for the next couple of days but for, like, the foreseeable future as your company moves forward in this new normal?" Like, that to me continues to be, like, my ongoing question. I mean, I've had people reach out talking about, "Can you come in and do some unconscious bias?" No.Dr. Gassam: And that is the worst. I don't think unconscious bias trainings are trash by any means. I think that most companies are not doing them effectively. That's, like, a nice way to say it, 'cause I think unconscious bias training doesn't do a lot. "Hey, I go through this training and I find out I have a bias against Black people." You might take an [?] association test and see, "Hey, I have a bias toward or against women, so what do I do now?" It's like, "Cool, now I recognize my biases," but if there's systems in the organization that allow bias to persist, it doesn't matter that now I know how to not say micro-aggressive statements, because there's, like, bias entrenched and baked into the fabric of the company. Like, in the way that they hire employees, that they're using a referral--many of these consulting companies, it's all referrals, it's all Jim knows Bob who knows John, and that's how you get jobs. It's primarily who you know and not what you know, and I think that there is benefits to referral hiring programs and systems, but I think that the way they're currently being done is just, like, creating this echo chamber of the same types of people. So I always encourage organizations to look at their systems and say, like, "Are Black people being promoted at the same rates as other people?" Because it's cool for you to say, "Look, no, no, no, we have a lot of Black people," but they're all in lower-level positions in the organization, but are they in senior-level positions, and if they are, how long are they staying? Because a lot of these tech companies, I love that they're being transparent and putting out these diversity reports, but they're not telling us how many of those Black people or those Latinx people or those women are staying in those roles, 'cause they're like, "Look, 13% of our population is Black [?]. Yay! That went up 1% from last year. Yay!" Like, but it's like, are those the same Black people, or did you just hire a bunch of new ones, and then those same ones with quit next--you know? So I think, like, looking at why there's this revolving door, particularly of Black people, you know, like, in the tech industry and all of these industries. The fact of the matter is that, like, Black people, a lot of us are not staying in companies, and part of the reason--a large part I would say--is because of the hostile work environments that we're working in. Zach: 100%. I mean, so Living Corporate, we've put out a couple of whitepapers, but, like, there's a few different reports, but they're, like, very rare, that talk about, like, turnover percentages. So I've yet to see anything that explicitly says "The turnover for this group is this." I've seen, and we've cited, sources that'll talk about the fact that Black and brown turnover is, like, two or three times higher than their white counterparts, but you're right. Like, there's no annual reporting that shows, "Hey, you know, our Black employees are four times more likely to leave within their first two years than their white counterparts." Like, that's not anything--those rates are never discussed. But you're absolutely right.Dr. Gassam: I think it's important, I mean, because these companies tout that they're so diverse, and I think that that's something important, that not just--we focus so much on the diversity piece. That is important to say, "Hey, look, we actually have diverse representation," but also, like, are they staying? Because if you're using stock images with Black people that look diverse that make your company look diverse but then I get there and I'm like, "Hm." I'm, like, the only Black person. That's, like, false advertising, and there's a lot of that going around, you know? I know the new buzzword is, like, performative allyship, and there's a lot of that going around with a lot of different companies that shall rename nameless, but yeah, I'm glad to see people are really calling them out, these companies out, and saying, "You posted Black Lives Matter, but you asked us not to wear Black Lives Matter stuff." Or "You have no Black people in senior positions," or "You have a hostile work environment where Black people don't feel comfortable." So, like, it's cute to--I wrote an article, like, "It's cute to post Black Lives Matter, but we want to see, like, policy changes." That's nice and fine and dandy, and I appreciate your statement because, you know, that's better than your silence, but I want to see more, and I'm glad that people are demanding more of their company.Zach: I wonder... I still don't think that organizations--and your piece was incredible, and we're gonna make sure that we link it in the show notes for those who didn't see it, but what I don't think organizations understand is that, like, if they come out here really loud externally about all these things they're gonna do to combat racism and inequity and things of that nature, but then, like, internally their policies and their cultures, their practices, their behaviors don't change, like, that's going to create more resistance, higher turnover, higher disengagement, than they had in the first place.Dr. Gassam: Mm-hmm, and as an employee, if I worked in that company, I would just be looking like, "Okay, y'all are, like, not really about that life." And I'm not about, like, exposing the company that I work for unless I feel like I've been completely mistreated--and I've definitely felt like that in workplaces, but my industry is very small, so I just silently exit a company, and I might speak of it but not give specifics and names and things like that. But I think that you're opening your company up to that type of negative publicity from employees if you're not, like, authentic in the things that you do, and I mentioned this before in a few speaking engagements I've done, but I have a friend that works at a very well-known consulting firm. She's been there for four years, and she said that--she belongs to a marginalized group. She's considered brown, and she said that since--her company has a diverse referral program, but she said since she's been working at the company for the last four years, they've never hired anyone from that diverse referral program. But it's just, like--I call it cosmetic diversity, where you have something in place just to look like you're doing something, look like you're actually about that life that a lot of these companies are not about [that life]. So I think that that's just not a good look. If you're gonna like the talk, you have to also be doing things that show that you're actually putting your words and your intentions into action.Zach: I agree. And to your point around, like, negative press or attention, it's--I think also, and all of this generational, because even I--you know, as someone... I'm 30, right? So, like, I'm not young-young, but I'm not older. I'm not old. So I think I probably still don't fully appreciate how easy it is--like, for something to go viral, especially as something negative, but it's, like, really, really easy. Like, there's so many avenues and mechanisms to, like, share your voice now, and I just don't know if organizations appreciate that AND the fact that, you know, doing that today, like, airing things out, putting people on blast, is not an automatic career ender like it might have been, like, five or six years ago. Like, if you put somebody on blast now, like, that doesn't mean that your career is over. It means you just--like, you may be actually heralded as a hero depending on how you do it, right? Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and just like a lot of these racists who say and do things after a year or so and the public forgets and they're able to go and get jobs, the same I think could be said for employees that put their companies on blast, because so many things are happening in our lives that we forget. Like, I don't remember all of these people's names. Are we still gonna remember Amy Cooper? Well, I guess there's a law now with her name, but are we gonna remember all of the Barbecue Beckys? Like, what their actual names are? Probably not. So I do think that you're absolutely right in that companies I don't think quite appreciate and understand how easy it is for people to get information out and just share their story and just share, "This company has a crappy environment." And you actually shared with me last year that internal memo, that Medium article, that those Facebook, those Black--I believe they were all Black, or some were Latinx--Facebook employees wrote about the toxic work culture and, you know, there's so many avenues to write anonymous memos and things like that about your company, and so that's not the type of press and reputation that you want. So I'm really happy that people are like, "We need to change. We are really--" Like, I've been getting requests, Zach, from, like, the most fascinating, like, industries that I never even expected, like, this person is reaching out and that person is reaching out. A fitness company reached out to me and said that they wanted me to do a webinar. A jewelry company reached out to me, and I was just like, "Wow." So, like, it's every industry. It's industry-wide. So, you know, I think that has really been interesting to me, that everyone is waking up and saying, "Whatever industry we're in, this is a problem that is, like, not specific to our industry. Everyone is having these issues and needs to figure out how we create an environment that is inclusive to Black people specifically," because I think that a lot of times the conversation gets watered down and we talk about other groups but we don't focus specifically on Black people and Black liberation and things like that, and I think that that's a huge part of the reason we're here, that we have more ease with talking about LGBTQ+ issues or gender issues than we do racial issues.Zach: You're absolutely right, and I think a large reason for that is because white people can be women and white people can be gay, but white people can't be Black. So it's like what does it look like to really shift and, like, have authentic conversations that center marginalized people? And it's interesting. I was talking to some colleagues a little while ago and was talking about the concept of, like, decentering whiteness, and they were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "A large way that we center whiteness is just in our language, right?" Like, a lot of the terms and things that we've created, we create those terms to avoid Blackness and to avoid the reality of harm. So it's like, we'll have these conversations and we'll talk about--you know, we'll say bias when it's like--and bias is, it fits technically, but what you're also talking about is, like, white supremacy or just racism, right? Like, we're not talking about--this isn't, like--like, bias softens it sometimes. In certain ways, bias softens it in the same way that, like, you know, it's not like I have a bias towards Coca-Cola versus RC Cola. Like, no, I genuinely think this person is less than me and, by relation, because of that, I treat this person differently. Like, that's different. And, you know, even--yeah, so anyway, not to go on a rant. So I do think this segues well though into your podcast, Dirty Diversity.Dr. Gassam: Yes. Yeah, so I actually started the podcast during Black History Month, and it was important for me to not only start it during Black History Month, but, like, the first episode was ironically, like, why your Black employees are leaving, because I don't think that we're talking about these things, and I think that we conflate people [of color?] with Black people, and we lump everyone together, I think for the sake of, like, conversation, it's easier to just say "Black and brown people," and it is, because a lot of these--your closeness to Blackness will impact your experiences, you know? And there's Latinx people who are stopped as much as us when they're driving, who experience racism just like us and things like that. So, you know, I think it's easy to say that, but I think it's important to put a particular focus on the unique experiences of Black people, and I don't think we do that enough, and when I'm asked to do these trainings there isn't a focus on--when that is the problem, Zach, it's that you're not able to retain Black employees. They're leaving, but you want me to come in and do inclusion training. Your problem is not inclusion. The problem is you're not creating an environment where Black people feel like they're valued and they matter, so we need to focus on that specific problem, and I think that watering it down is what we've been doing for so long, and that hasn't produced positive results or changes, so we have to just be bold and call it out for what it is. And I'm so excited, because I feel like I have been censoring myself--I censor myself on social media a lot because my colleagues follow me, so I can't be like, "White supremacy--" I can't be using that language a lot because, you know, my colleagues [?] me and all of these things, and I know in my field that's gonna get you--that sort of thing is not gonna sit well with... but now I feel like I can say what I really want to say, especially in the workshops, and I think that that's gonna make people [uncomfortable,] but for me, my goal isn't to make people feel happy. My goal is to help you change and help you create better organizations, and the way to do that is I'm gonna have to say things that are uncomfortable and you're gonna have to evaluate your role and how you've contributed to inequitable systems and oppression and things like that. And for a lot of people this is the first time that they've ever taken a look in the mirror, and just with speaking with different white women, they've said--and they're millennials, you know? Like, they're young, and they're like, "This is the first time I've really taken an honest look at myself, and even though I have Black friends and, you know, I dated a Black guy, you know, maybe I have white supremacist views," and it's like, "Yes, you do." Every white person who's born and raised in the U.S. have internalized white supremacist views, and a lot of it is just baked into our American fabric, so it's, like, recognizing that and using your privilege and your power to impact change.Zach: And, you know, I think that really leads us well into the book that you recently--I think by the time this airs it'll be published, so, like, let's talk about the book.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, and thank you again for the opportunity to just share my work with your audience. You know, I was--it was important to create the book, but now I'm already [thinking about] book #2 and how it needs to focus specifically on race. So I wrote "Dirty Diversity" as, like, a very simple, practical guide [for] implementable ways that you can create more inclusion and equity into your workplace. The thing that I've learned in the years that I've been--I've been in consulting now for, like, two years or so, and I've learned so much. When I started doing these diversity workshops, I knew nothing. I didn't know anyone personally that was close to me that did any sort of--I didn't know consultants like that, you know? Just people I went to school with who work at large consulting firms, but I didn't know independent consultants, so I had to figure a lot of things out on my own. I had to bump my head multiple times. So the book is written in three different sections, and the first section is for managers, and it's things that are so simple and easy to implement into your workplace you might say, "Why didn't we think about this?" Or "Why haven't we been doing this?" But it's simple ways to create more inclusion in your workplace. The next section is for people who do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and things that I've learned from creating workshops and ways that you can improve the effectiveness of the workshops, but one of the things that I emphasize is that one workshop or one training is not gonna make a change. You have to encourage the organizational leaders to do multiple trainings and multiple workshops. And then the third section is written for employees and just, like, simple ways and simple things you can include in your workplace to create more inclusion as an employee, 'cause I get that question a lot where people say, "How do I get my manager to care about diversity? And how do I get my manager to--" And I think that it's not just get managers to care and to--it's understanding the value of what this can bring into your workplace, but there are things that you can do yourself. Like, you know, I talk about an employee book club, and that's something, like, super easy, and maybe petitioning your employee to sponsor an Audible membership--because everybody doesn't read. For me, most of my books I consume them now on Audible. So, like, if you have an Audible membership, you don't have an excuse now to say, "Oh, I didn't have time to read." You could, like, take a [?] minute walk and listen to a chapter of a book. It's very easy now to me to, like--for things as an employee that you can implement into your workplace. So I felt like this book was really necessary, and I didn't--I had no idea all of these events would be transpiring right now, so I feel like it's even more relevant. And there's so many--in the book I talk about some really simple things, low cost or no cost things, that you can implement to create more inclusion, and I think that there's a perception that you have to spend a lot of money--which I do think you should be adequately compensating your consultants that come in, and a lot of times people ask me to come in and they expect it to be free, so I think that is part of the problem, but there are things you can do, like having a panel in your workplace. That's something that is a really simple way to create inclusion that you probably didn't think about. Inviting someone like you, Zach, to come in to speak with employees on a panel just about equity and inclusion and different things like that is just, like, an event your company can host, and often times on panels people are donating time or, you know, giving up their time for free. So, like, there's so many simple ways. It doesn't have to be this, like, extravagant sort of, like, training program that could help you to create equity and inclusion. So that's pretty much, like, the goal. It's a simple read. It's, like, a little over 100 pages, and I think it's just filled with things that you can do and can easily implement into your workplace to create more equity and inclusion. I mean, I'm excited to--I've already got a copy, okay? So we're gonna--Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: No, no, thank you, and so we're gonna make sure we put a link in the show notes for everybody to get a copy as well. And the book's title though--is the book's title "Dirty Diversity?"Dr. Gassam: Yes. So same title as the podcast. The reason I titled is "Dirty Diversity" is because diversity has definitely become a dirty word. People are not into having diversity trainings. There's a misconception about what diversity is, what it brings to an organization. There's still diversity resistance and pushback. So when you say, "We're gonna have a diversity training," people in their minds have an idea of what that is. There's a lot of research that indicates diversity trainings are not effective. So I really was kind of focused on, like, what are some things, in addition to workshops and trainings, that you can--what are some ways you can create more inclusion? Because I kind of resent the fact that--I've seen this meme going around, and I disagree--I think it's cute and it's funny, but it's like, "The revolution will not be in diversity and inclusion training," and I disagree with that. [both laugh] Have you seen that meme before? Zach: I have. I don't--I hear you though.Dr. Gassam: I was like--I don't agree fully. I think when done effectively workshops--if you're having workshops every month in addition to a multitude of other things like mentorship programs, I think they can be effective.Zach: I think authentic, intentional workshops paired with other systemic solutions are effective. I think most people when they think about these workshops, they're not talking about the type of work that you do or the type of work that, like, Dr. Erin Thomas at Upwork, that she does, thinking more about the--you know, the very white comfort-centered diversity of thought -type workshops. Those are not gonna lead us to no revolution, but I agree with you about, you know, intentional, intelligent, competent workshops along with other things are very effective.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, yeah, and that's--you know, that was my thought. You know, everybody's kind of--you know, and I try not to curse, but everyone's kind of, like, crapping on diversity and inclusion trainings, and I do think that in itself one training is not gonna change anything, but the problem is those companies don't even have ongoing trainings or workshops. They have one once a year if that. A lot of them have never had any sort of training, yet every year they have sexual harassment training, which I find to be interesting, you know? Zach: Well, it's typically to check a box, right, from, like, a legal perspective. Like, that's typically what they're doing so they can at least say, "Well, we do this, and we do it regularly," you know? It's not really about any type of behavioral change.Dr. Gassam: Exactly. Yeah, so it's like to check a box. So really, like, how to overcome this idea that diversity has become a dirty word. What are some really simple things? And I'm telling you, it's such a practical, simple--I'm not using any, like, jargon that you wouldn't be able to understand. It's very, like, a simple guide. You open it, you read it and say, "Oh, this is something, like, so simple. Why aren't we already doing this in our company?" But you'd be surprised. To me, like, something, like, a blind resume system. When people tell me they can't find Black candidates, can't find Black engineers, I'm like, "Do you have a blind resume system?" And they're like, "No, what's that?" And that to me is something that I think is so simple but a lot of people just don't know. So that's really, like, what the purpose of me writing this book was. Like, simple things that you think a lot of people know but they might not, and it's just, like, so simple to implement into your workplace. It's not complicated at all outside of just workshops that you can do to create more inclusion.Zach: Man, this has been super dope. What else do we need to talk about, Dr. Gassam? 'Cause I want to make sure I give you your space. So we talked about--Dr. Gassam: So much! Thank you. [both laugh] You know, there's so much. All of the performative allyship, all of the--Zach: Oh, yeah. Let's go in on that real quick actually. Yeah, no, this is good. So side note, y'all, for those who are kind of behind the scenes. Typically I send out, like, these very detailed questions before each podcast, but, you know, for people that like--you know, we kick it or, like, we kind of get each other's style or energy, we kind of freestyle. So this is actually a freestyle, y'all. That's why we're, like, actively trying to think about what we talk about next. We have a little bit more time. Dr. Gassam: And I really appreciate that, and we'll talk about how to support each other after we get into the performative allyship.Zach: Yo, let's do that. Okay, so this performative allyship stuff is crazy, right? Like, I'm so tired of these people--and you know what's really wild? It's like--what we don't talk about is, like, just... we don't talk about this enough I think just, like, culturally, the importance of authenticity, right? So, like, I've had people who have harmed me with their racist behaviors hit me up now talking about, "Hey, just thinking about you." Like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking to me, and why would the first thing when you reach out to me not about the harm that you caused, that you KNOW you caused? These are, like, [?], right? Like, these are things that, like, you gravely harmed me personally and professionally, right? It's not like you walked by, you touched my hair and said, "Oh, this is like my little pet lamb's hair back in my Meemaw's house." Like, no. This is "You harmed me." And so it's wild, like, that we have--how members of the majority... go ahead.Dr. Gassam: I know. It's just like--I'm getting a lot of people hitting me up, like, that are--you know those people that are in the periphery of your life? They're not in your life, but they're just, like, there watching from the--I get a lot of those, and there are people who have actively done things to prevent me from being successful, and they reach out to me, or on the other end people are asking of me, and I won't get into too many details, just, you know, to protect myself, but there are people who are actively asking things of me without consideration of the events that transpired. You're asking for projects from me and things like that, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not in a mental state--" And I've had to send emails like that where I'm like, "I'm not in the mental state to produce what you're asking me to produce because there are Black people being killed and slaughtered, videos," you know? And I just--and it's "Oh, my gosh! You're so right! I didn't even realize it! Oh, my gosh. Like, it's all because of Trump. This would have never happened if Obama was president!" [Zach sighs] And it's like... I mean, it did happen when Obama was president.Zach: It happened a lot [?] though.Dr. Gassam: I was just like... "Okay, but thanks." So I get those, where people are completely, like, oblivious to what's going on and what's happening and how maybe the Black [people] you know are impacted by this, so maybe I shouldn't be asking for X, Y and Z, and I've had to let people know, but I've also seen, yeah, like you said, people who have actively caused harm to you, "Hey, how are you?" Without any acknowledgement of what was done, what was said, your role in how you contributed. Lots of snakes in the grass.Zach: A lot of snakes in the grass! I think also just, like, the psychological--and, like, I don't even think, like, even just considering the additional mental and emotional toll you put on that other person when you do that. So, like, now, as the person who's receiving your random message after a year or after six months or however long, now I have to do the mental calculus if I'm gonna even gonna respond and then make a decision if I respond, "How vulnerable do I want to make myself in responding to you?" Knowing that if I respond to you and you get upset it could harm me even more. So it's just so... so that alone is, like, ugh, such a rant. Such a rant-worthy topic. I do think that it's, like, when we talk about allyship and--I just wonder, are people--I'm not curious about it. This is my belief. I don't believe that members of the majority have the capacity to, like, really deal with being explicitly anti-racist for more than, like... like, for a sustained amount of time, right? Like, you're already seeing on Twitter, people are getting burnt out. Like, "Ugh, I know that you guys are probably tired, but here are some tips that you can--" [Dr. Gassam laughs] "Make sure you drink your [?] tea."Dr. Gassam: You're absolutely right, and it's exhausting in that--and I know a lot of white people are confused, because in one breath we say, "You should be checking on your Black friends," but in another breath it's like we're getting binged and pinged and all of this, like, left and right, and then you have to keep having to revisit the conversation of, like, you know, "Why aren't you answering my text messages? I hit you up to check on you." 'Cause I don't want to keep talking about the same--like, I appreciate that you reached out. I don't--I'm not in the mental state. I want to go on a bike ride and just have the sun on my face and just not think about Black people being killed. I just want to listen to a podcast while riding a bike. Sometimes you just don't want to keep talking about, keep talking about it, and what I've found is that--it's interesting, companies want to give us space to talk about without asking us if this is something we want to take part in. A close friend of mine worked in a healthcare system, and she said her company was like, "Hey, can you be on this panel? It's all Black people talking about their families," and it's like, "I don't want--like, why do I gotta--you don't even--" Like, it's really like, "Hey, we want you to be part of this panel." "No, I don't want to." I had another friend who was asked to talk about white privilege, and she was like, "This isn't even my scope or my domain. I'm in PR. Why are you asking me to talk about white privilege? This isn't even, like--what, just because I'm a Black woman you want, "Oh, yeah, have her talk about--"" She was like, "What?" And I had to send out an email to somebody that asked me to a part of a panel, and I didn't want to be mean, but I was like, "When you're asking me to regurgitate and keep repeating why I feel bad as a Black person living in America, like, you should be paying me," you know what I'm saying? And I know that sounds like--it's not a matter of being all about the money, but it's a matter of, like, this is emotional labor, and this takes an emotional toll on me to be on 80 million eleven panels talking about why, what I feel as a Black person and all of this, and it's just like--the idea of paying a Black person doesn't often cross these people's minds who are organizing these events, and I'm just like--at this point, like, my mind [?] so busy with these workshops--and also I teach as well, so it's like with teaching and doing the workshops and promoting the book, like, I'm not gonna just be on a panel talking about how sad I am and my experiences as a Black person. There's so many thinkpieces online with people giving this information to you already. You don't need me on a panel to talk about what it feels like to be Black. And I hope I'm not being too raw, but it's just that's how I've been feeling lately.Zach: No, you're not being too raw at all. I see where you're going and I will meet you there. So look, folks who are asking--please stop asking us to talk about our feelings for free. I need y'all to stop. Many of you listen to the podcast, right? And, like, when I say you I mean aspiring allies and white executives. Stop. Now, look, especially--like, not to be classist, but especially don't be asking a bunch of degreed people to be doing it. Like, that's crazy. You have people out here who have whole doctorates in sociology and psychology and you're asking them to come on these panels for free. It's like, "No." Like, "I have the Western colonized expertise from an actual [?] institution, and couple that with the expertise of my lived experience, when you ask me for my time, I need you to pay me. Don't even ask." I've had people ask me for my time to do things and I'm like, "First of all, do you understand how much--" Like, I'm gonna feel drained after this, because I'm gonna talk about all these things and no one's gonna come back to me with, like, any tangible resources or support. It's just gonna be me, like, giving out.Dr. Gassam: And it's like--you have a podcast where you talk about all these things. You invite people to talk. You have--and then it's, like, on top of that you write about these things, on top of that you work full-time, on top of that you're a father and you have a wife. It's just, like, y'all gotta think about all of these things. It's like, "Hey, can you explain to me, like--" No, I can't. I'm sorry.Zach: No, I can't. And shameless plug, like, Living Corporate, it's not like we're just, like, a random podcast. Like, you can go on our website and type in anything and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Like, we have a whole database, so you can educate yourself, and, like, there's other free resources. I think it's so inappropriate during this time, like, going back to what you said earlier about organizations and, like, predominantly white leadership who have, like, either intentionally or unintentionally been the cause for people to exit their places of work are now, like, sending out these emails with a bunch of different options to have quote-unquote "real talk sessions," and, like, who made you a luminary on the subject one, but then two, like, why do you just presume that I even want to do this? But the challenge, Dr. Gassam, is, like, there's also the reality--which we don't talk about enough, and, like, shout-out to Brittany J. Harris of The Winters Group. I see you. She talked about it, like, explicitly--this was some months ago--about the fact that, like, power is, like, the silent "P" in DE&I, right? It's like--we don't talk about the fact that, like, yo, if a senior executive sends out something to talk, have one of these conversations, there's gonna be a certain percentage of marginalized people who feel pressured to join it simply because the person who sent out the invite is in power, right? Like, there's a power dynamic that we don't want to address, and also when you ask people to do things--like, nine times out of ten the Black and brown folks you ask to do this type of work or, like, to randomly jump in this and it's not even their expertise, they're gonna feel pressured to say yes because you're in charge, and then when they show up to do whatever you want them to talk about, white privilege, their own lived experience, whatever, they're going to be pressured to not be as honest as they would even like to be because they know that they might get fired or they may be opportunities withheld from them if they say the wrong thing.Dr. Gassam: Exactly, exactly, and I'm actually doing a workshop tomorrow, and the two individuals who reached out to me to do the workshop, they had told me they don't want to be part of the facilitation because there are--there's 500 people who are a part of this workshop, and they're worried because in their industry it's, of course, not what you know it's who you know, and I sympathized with them 100,000% because I'm still--you know, I work in an institution, and I can't fully say--I can't go out and jump on a limb and say everything that I would want to say because of that power piece and because I know that there's still many people who are uncomfortable when you're speaking the truth and when you're trying to--so it's like you can only say but so much, and unfortunately it's like--we need the raw, and we need it to the point, and I'm glad people are more open to that right now, but it's still, like, a concern for us and for people who do this work and, you know, even you as a--not only as an employee but as someone in the podcast space, I'm sure there's topics that you can venture into but not too, too much because you don't--Zach: Oh, Dr. Gassam. Ooooh, bay-bay. [laughs]Dr. Gassam: You know? 'Cause it's like, "I know my audience." You know, there's stuff--I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you want to say but you just--one day [I'ma?] have a tell-all.Zach: Listen, one day--no, I literally tweeted this the other day, I said, "One day I'ma let these @s fly." Like, I'ma really talk to y'all. But no, you're absolutely right, the power dynamic, it dictates, like, literally everything. So, like, you know, I talk differently now because I work--I have a 9-to-5 job. Like, the day that I do Living Corporate full-time, I'm still not gonna be able to talk as free because I'm gonna have clients, and my clients need to know and respect the fact that, you know, I won't air them out one day, you know what I mean? So, like, the only time that I think you ever really hear, like, Black people speak the truth, like, unabashed truth is when they have a lot of money, right? So you think about--you know, you think about, like, the Will Smiths and Kevin Harts and Dave Chappelles and Eddie Murphys of the world, the people who just--or people who just don't care at all, and those voices are needed, but it's just, like, I can't shame people for not being 100,000% raw all of the time when, like, our survival is predicated on some degree of white comfort. It just is. We can't just say--we can't speak the truth like we want to. Like, I believe I speak the truth pretty consistently, don't get me wrong, but there are certainly--like, I'm halfway joking, but there are things that I would like to be much more explicit about, but I can't, you know? Especially [because] I have a daughter, you know what I mean? You have to be careful. So let's talk about this. Let's talk about supporting each other during this time. So we're talking about, like, the emotional labor that we sometimes get pressured into performing or just the increased emotional labor during this time, but also just the general amount of labor just in being Black and brown in majority white spaces. When you asked or when you kind of suggested talking about supporting one another, like, what comes to mind for you?Dr. Gassam: So many things. You know, I think that besides the Candice Owens and some of these people out here that maybe don't [?]--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Please don't ever say her name again. Nope.Dr. Gassam: [laughing] I'm sorry. Some of these people, you know, these people, I think for the most part we got us, and the community that we're building and that we've built and the support that I feel from my fellow Black people just makes me really proud to be Black, and I have to say that in a lot of the--in April I was offering these complimentary workshops because I was transitioning from in-person trainings and workshops to online and I was acclimating and getting myself used to Zoom. So I was like, "You know, if your company wants a complimentary workshop just reach out." And let me tell you, I did 7 complementary workshops that month, and all of the people that reached out to me were Black women. I love that Black women are always, always at the forefront of putting other--we're always... I feel like we have such big hearts and we're always trying to, like, save the world, and people need to listen to us more, but I just think that in a moment like this, the support and the camaraderie that I'm seeing among Black people but particularly among Black women is just what, like, warms my heart and reminds me why, despite all of the B.S. and what we're going through, I'm so proud to be a Black person and to be a Black woman. So I think that just supporting each other, supporting Black businesses and things like that, just reaching out to your Black friends, I think--one of the many things that I love about us is, like, we're gonna have fun and find entertainment in anything, and I've been like--we've been crying a lot, but I just find that we just make anything into, like, something funny, into a joke. Like, after the Verzuz of Beenie Man and Bounty Killer, I was just, like, so entertained by the memes and the gifs, and I was just like, "I love us." Like, we are just so funny, and we're just like--so that's, I think, like, the fact that us coming together and just laughing and doing things that bring us joy and just, you know, the community I think right now is we're building that and we're creating these groups, and so I think that we should all be doing one thing that makes us feel joy, and whether that's, like, meeting up with a friend, grabbing some ice cream, riding a bike, I've been trying to do that more and more. And just, like, [supporting] each other. I have friends that reach out to me and say, "Hey, I want to bring you into my company," and it's like, just that support of, like, "I see you, I see the work that you're doing and I'm trying to put you on," is I think what we need more of and what I've been seeing a lot, and I just love that.Zach: Man, I love it too, and, you know, with that being said, if you haven't yet, make sure that you get a copy of "Dirty Diversity," Dr. Gassam's--it's your first published book, right?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. Yes, my very first published book, so I'm awaiting--it is gonna be available Juneteenth, on June 19th, and both the e-book and the paperback will be available on Amazon, but I'm also awaiting Audible approval because I recorded the audiobook, so I'm just waiting on that process now. Hopefully it'll all be good by June 19th, but I think by the time this episode drops it'll be available via Audible as well.Zach: Well, that's dope, and yeah, we'll make sure that we signal boost any of the promotions and advertising for it on Juneteenth, and then we'll also make sure that y'all check out Dr. Gassam's Dirty Diversity podcast. So Dr. Gassam, you know what I'm saying, she's way more fancy than me, so her guests--I mean, we have great guests, don't get me wrong. We have amazing guests, so let me not play, but I'm just saying, like, she's--Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you guys have amazing, amazing guests.Zach: We have dope guests, but I'm saying your guests are nothing to sniff at, you know what I'm saying? So make sure y'all check out Dr. Gassam, you know?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate it. Thank you for amplifying our voices and trying to use our platform to put more of us on. I think that that's an inspiration to me, and that's what I think we should all be doing, using our platforms and our power to put other people on, you know, other, our people on. But thank you so much, Zach, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend.Zach: Yo, same to you. Listen, y'all, this has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these conversations weekly. So again, this might be your first time listening to Living Corporate, so as a reminder or as an FYI, we have Real Talk Tuesdays--that's when we have these, like, you know, 1-on-1 conversations. We then have Tristan's Tips on Thursdays, and then we have The Link Up with Latesha or See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger on Saturdays. Like, those kind of interchange, and so we have essentially three different series a week, so make sure you reach out. We're all over Beyonce's internet, you know? Just type in Living Corporate, we're gonna pop up. And then yeah, you've been listening to Dr. Janice Gassam, public speaker, entrepreneur, educator, consultant, podcaster, and writer of "Dirty Diversity." That's also the podcast. Make sure y'all check out all the links in the show notes. 'Til next time. Peace.

On the fourteenth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Vonda Page, an organizational change leader at PayPal, about her entrance into the tech space and her experience being the only in many job settings, and Vonda talks to the fact that even individuals without a STEM background have spaces for them in technology. Check the links in the show notes to connect with her!Connect with Vonda on LinkedIn.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, for those of y'all who are new here, the purpose of Living Corporate is to create a space that affirms black and brown experiences in the workplace, right? There are certain things that only we can really understand, and when I say we I mean the collective non-white professional [laughs] in corporate America. And when we look around--if you, like, Google being black and brown in corporate America, you may see, like, a post in Huffington Post or something that kind of communicates from a position of lack, but I don't know if we necessarily see a lot of content that empowers and affirms our identity and our experience, and that's really the whole purpose of Living Corporate. It's with that that I'm really excited to talk to y'all about the See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, who has been a guest on the show, who's a writer for Living Corporate, and who's also the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually partnered with Living Corporate to actually have an interviewing series where she actually sits down with black and brown professionals so that we can learn about what they actually do and see ourselves in these roles, right? So it's a variety of industries that she's--she's talking to a lot of different types of folks. You're gonna be able to see what they do, and at the same time you're gonna hopefully be able to envision yourself in that role, hence the title See It to Be It, okay? So check this out. The next thing you're gonna hear is this interview with Amy C. Waninger. Y'all hang tight. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Vonda, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you. How are you?Vonda: I'm great, Amy. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.Amy: This is exciting for me, 'cause you and I have had so many conversations on these topics alraedy, and every time I talk to someone and we get going and we're on a roll I'm like, "Oh, I wish that I had recorded this for the show," so now we get to, which is exciting to me.Vonda: That's great. I'm happy about it. Thank you so much.Amy: Good. So Vonda, how long have you been working in the tech space?Vonda: It's so funny. You know, I was thinking about it, and I've really been in the tech space for about 24 years, and the last 20 exclusively, and it's interesting because I really got into tech organically because I never was necessarily oriented towards math, towards science or, you know, digital technology, and the way that I got into the tech field was I originally started working in the restaurant business, right, in bars and restaurants, some chain places, some local places, and as different restaurants were getting online with different computer systems, they would need a person that could teach everybody how to use it. And I was always a really good trainer. My background is communications, always really good at, you know, processes and helping people learn how things work, and so they'd say, "Okay. Well, you know, we're getting a computer system, and we need you to train people." And I'm like, "What?" So they give me the big fat book, the big fat manual, you know, the operating procedures, and I have to review that, and it would be interesting because after looking at "Okay, this is how the technology works," I had to compare how are we currently working and what is different, right? So in a restaurant back in the old pen and paper days, right, before iPads and all that fancy stuff, people would come to the table with a paper and a pencil and they would write it down. So when we started to adopt computers and different types of technology, I had to look at "What's the delta between how we're operating in a non-technical way," right, without technology, and then when we move to using technology, what's that difference? So the way I got started was really helping people move from, you know, the paper and pencil onto using different computer systems.Amy: I think that's fascinating. I have a story that I would love to share with you if you don't mind. I went to one of the--you know the really cheap hair-cutting places? I took my kids there one day, and their computer system was down and they didn't know what to do. They were frozen. And I looked at the woman--and I was an analyst at the time, you know, kind of like what you're describing--and they're like, "Well, we can't cut hair because our computers are down," and I said, "Why do you need a computer to cut my kid's hair? Can't you just use scissors?" And they kind of laughed and she's like, "Um, yeah, okay," and so she got out a piece of paper and the first thing she said was, "What's your phone number?" Well, that's the identifier they used in their system to look up what haircut he'd had the last time. I said, "You don't need his phone number. You need a #2 guard. Cut his hair." But they were just so lost 'cause they had been training on how to use the system, not how to do the job, right? And so what you're talking about is the reverse of that, where people come in not already indoctrinated to the technology and now they have to learn to do their job with it.Vonda: Exactly, and then there's that balance of using the technology with the actual process. So the process of cutting hair in your example is perfect, right? You use scissors or you use clippers or you use a combination. You use a comb. Maybe you have a spray bottle with some water. You need that whether you have a computer or not, right? If you're in a restaurant, you need pans and pots and food, right? And you need that, right, whether you have a computer or not. So, you know, it's a very similar thing, and it's so interesting, but that's really kind of how I got started, and for me, I grew up with computers, right? I learned as the technology advanced, and later on in my career I worked exclusively in tech. So now for the last--yeah, since 2000 I've been exclusively in tech, and a lot of what I do is really helping companies when they decide to change a technology, whether that's through an upgrade, whether we are retiring something to bring in something new or just adding new features, I help the company or the team determine "What is the strategy we need to implement that technology change so that we don't have an adverse impact on the business, on the employees or on whomever that change is gonna impact?"Amy: One of the things I think is so interesting about that, Vonda, is that you didn't come in from a technology standpoint--and I think I've had some other folks on the show that have worked in technology, that are pure technologists, but I think it's important for people to understand you don't have to be a technologist to work in technology, and in fact, the tech sector needs people people, right? If you say, "Oh, I'm a people person," my goodness, does somebody in tech need you. Vonda: Absolutely. And it's so funny because, you know, even now every now and then somebody will ask me some kind of technical question. Like, a friend of mine yesterday was asking something and I said, "Listen, I really have no idea." Like, "I've heard of this thing you're asking me about, but I'm not--" And she was like, "Well, you've been in tech for, like, ever," and I said, "I've been in tech, but I'm not a techie." And so what's interesting in the tech field, and what I do is I work with a lot of engineers, a lot of extremely technical people, a lot of architects, and while their expertise is really based in the system and how things are built and how things are connected and put together, they need support from the standpoint of somebody who can take all of that, what they're talking about, and help the business as well as, you know, the community that's gonna be using that technology understand what is it, how does it help or impact me, and why do I want to use it, right, and what is the benefit of it, and sometimes a technologist will say, "Well, it's great. It has all these great features. It does this," and they'll say, "It does," right? So they'll say, "The tech does this," and my question to them is, "Okay, so how does that affect, you know, Suzy? How does that affect Rohit? How does that affect Carmela?" So you're making changes to technology. You're putting enhancements in. You're building things on top of apps or creating features, but what is the people side of that? So one of the gaps that I have seen over my career in the technology field is that people sometimes leave out that we are creating technology for people. The technology is to be used by people. So you have to think--okay, if we take the example of earphones, right, or listening devices, right, and you think about "People need to use this for what? To either block out sound, to focus sound, you know?" What is it that people need it for, and then how do we build it or talk about it so that it matches what that need is? And that really requires, you know, the ability to ask a lot of questions and to be--like, I take a lot of notes. I pull in different people that have different areas of expertise for a particular technology. So sometimes in a phone call or in a conversation there will be an engineer and an architect and a product manager and a project manager that's somebody that's kind of herding the cats and all of that, and then you have other subject matter expertise that may be connected to that particular application, right, or that particular business process. So it's really important to have the soft skill of communication, that you can pull in those different perspectives, you can ask those different questions, you can get, you know, people talking, because a lot of times, technologists, they kind of work inside their own head, right? And so helping them come outside of their head with certain questions, especially open-ended--you know, how will this help John get his work done? How will this make it easier for the customer to execute a transaction? And really helping to articulate that for the technologist so that the business can say, "Oh, we know why you're making this change, and we're gonna make sure that we support it."Amy: Absolutely, and I've spent so much time in those roles. I'm just nodding along like, "Yes, we need a translator between the two worlds," becase they do speak different languages often. So I want to switch gears just a little bit, Vonda, and I want to ask you, especially 24 years ago when you started working in tech and, you know, sort of had a toe in the water but still way too much tday, I would imagine that you are not swimming in a sea of other black women at work.Vonda: No. It's so funny. So I just moved to a different team, and I was the only, only black woman. And I'm in a new team that has more women, but still the only black woman, and what I have found is that throughout my career I'm usually the only black woman--and every now and then there may be a support staff person, like a project coordinator or an administrative professional, but not usually. And so, you know, I've learned to be comfortable in that role, right, and to just really not let it hamper how I'm gonna perform. I don't shy back if I have a question. I ask it. If I'm running the meeting I'm running the meeting, you know? If I am trying to accomplish specific outcomes for a project or a meeting, I state what they are, I let them know "These are the critical success factors for getting it done," and, you know, no matter what I kind of keep on fighting, right? But it is very difficult, because what happens--and I'm sure, you know, in your work and in this inclusion space have had conversations with other black women who, you know, you get into this space where you know what some of the obstacles and challenges are going to be, but what you have to do is just drive ahead, right, and as you experience more and more circumstances, right, whether it's in meetings or whether it's in presentations or whether it's in, you know, any kind of group effort where you have to do things, you have to kind of go into it knowing that you might not get the support or the cooperation. Amy: So where do you get the reserves of energy that it must take to walk in every day knowing that--and forgive me for saying this. I mean, I'm gonna just kind of lay this out, right? Knowing no matter how good you are, no matter how great a job you do that day, no matter how great a job you've done for 20 years, there are probably no people who look like you above you in the food chain at your company, and your shot at getting there is pretty low.Vonda: Yeah, and it's interesting, 'cause--so I do two things. So one thing I do--and it's funny. So one thing that I do to mentally prepare myself is when I know I'm gonna have a challenging day, especially a day that I'm gonna be expending a whole lot of energy, I really make sure that I kind of have a ritual that I do, right, and part of it is the way I take care of myself, right? So I do a lot of physical exercise, 'cause I feel like when my body is strong, that helps me be mentally strong and emotionally prepared. That's one thing. I try to also listen to motivational music. So, like, I listen to a lot of hardcore--not hardcore, but, like, inspirational rap music, right, and I call it my mental warmup. So I have a playlist of, like, Beyonce and Kendrick Lamar and Drake and, you know, Jill Scott and different people, but I have music that kind of talks about, "Hey, things are hard, right, but you can do it," and so I use music and my physicality to help with that, but the other thing I do, Amy, is I have friends, right, and colleagues and associates that I'm close to that I know I can call to vent, right, and I can say, you know, "So here's what's happening. Am I looking at this, you know, in a way that doesn't seem right?" So that really helps. And I also go to therapy. I love therapy. I am a big advocate for people trying to take charge of their own mental health and mental well-being. And I talk to my therapist, right, and my therapist is a white guy in his 40s, and, you know, I look at it as--and we have a great relationship, right, and I look at it as--you know, and I think he does too, as he's my sort of--like, sort of... I don't want to call it a check, but my support from the standpoint that I can describe a situation or what it is, and he'll say, "Wow, that is really terrible. That must be really hard for you. How do you feel about that?" Amy: So I'm really glad that you brought up therapy, because I know, you know, among--particularly among my black friends there's a lot of stigma around seeking therapy because it's viewed as weakness or a lack of faith, and so I want to thank you for sharing that. That's very vulnerable. And, you know, I think it helps people when other folks come forward about those kinds of things, right? About prioritizing mental health, and particularly in a community that has cause for, you know--I mean, you're in a lot of collective stress, especially right now. I do think it's so important. Where do you go at work to find community when there are so few people who look like you in this place?Vonda: Yeah. So I'm funny like that, Amy. I seek out the black people. Like, I literally look for the black people. So I look for any face that I see that is of any shade, and I say, "Hey," and I walk up to people--you know, pre-COVID, right, I would walk up to somebody, a stranger, you know, and be like, "Hey, I'm Vonda. Who are you? What team do you work in?" Sometimes I just get on LinkedIn and I look for people that work for my company, and then I reach out to them on LinkedIn and I'm like, "Hey, we work at the same company. Here's my User ID. Why don't you Slack me when you get to the office?" Or something like that. So I make a purposeful attempt to reach out to people, and then I just kind of build it up from there. So I'm--and I don't know where I learned this. You know, I guess--my under-grad degree is in communications, my graduate degree is in communications. I've always been a very communicative person, you know, and so I will just reach out to somebody and say, "Hi, I'm Vonda. We haven't met. Can I put 20 minutes on your calendar just for, like, a 1-on-1 intro chat?" I've never been told, "No, you can't put 20 minutes on my calendar," I've always been told "Absolutely," and then I just kick it off like that. "Hey, I'm new here," or, you know, "I saw you on campus," or "Hey, I stalked you on LinkedIn, and I just wanted to say hi and find out what you do. Are there any other black people in your department? What's your experience like? If you ever need to talk, let's talk." And fortunately, you know, a lot of companies nowadays have ERGs or employee resource groups. Some companies call them affinity groups. That's a really good way to meet the only, because in a large company, you know, especially in tech and in high tech, they're probably the only in their team or the only in their department. So, you know, everybody is sort of craving that sense of "Oh, there's somebody that gets me. Oh, there's somebody that looks like me." So I bet you they're experiencing some of it, right? So when you're looking at gender the experience is a little different, right, for black men versus black women, because the way we're perceived, you know, in society is a little different, but we still are, I find, in tech usually the only. I would say, other than my colleagues who work more in the non-technical spaces, right, my colleagues who work more in, like, customer operations type of roles, you'll find more black women, right, in those roles, right? So it'll be more in those teams, but in the highly technical ones, everybody is usually the only, and when you are the only, you know, as you said, you do feel like "How am I gonna get to that next level? Because there is no one that looks like me," right? And if there was, you know, a black woman that might have had, you know, a high-up job, maybe she only stayed at the company for a couple of years or maybe she moved on--and it is difficult, but there's a part of me that feels like even if I can't make a significant enough change to maybe see it, I'm at least helping the next generation. So for me--and I guess it's part of the mom in me, right, is I want to help the next generation so that when they get to high tech in the corporate world they're not the only, but if they are, they know "Okay, here's how you need to navigate," right? You have to walk in realizing that the same perceptions that people have out of the corporate space, like, those are the same perceptions that get carried into the corporate space. And really, as you said, there's no amount of excellence and tenacity and accomplishment that will, you know, change that for people, but what you can do is change for yourself, you know, how you approach it, and if you have the information, right, to be able to say, "Okay, I am prepared that my ideas might not get traction. Okay, so then how do I start to build a coalition of advocates, right, and other, like, friendlies to help build that up? I know that if I'm presenting I might get interrupted, so what do I need to do about that?" So I have lines already memorized and prepared in my mind, right? So if I'm speaking and someone interrupts me, I say "Hey, can you hold your thought, John? Because I wasn't done," and then I finish, right? And I serve as an advocate to everyone. It doesn't matter male or female, black or white, Hispanic, Indian, it doesn't matter, and those things I think make a difference.Amy: Absolutely. So just in closing, what advice do you have for people who are maybe wanting to break into tech who maybe are not technologists but certainly, you know, have questions about how to get started. Where would you send them to kind of start this journey?Vonda: Yeah. I've thought about that a lot, because tech is here, and it is going to continue to grow and move into a bunch of different spaces. One of the really growing areas in tech right now is really around data science and data analytics, and I would encourage people to do at every stage of their career, right, whether they're in college right now, just finishing up high school, early career, mid-career, is really just start looking at some of those trends, right? So for example, you could just do a quick Google search on technology trends, and you'll see AI, you know, automation, artificial intelligence, and data science. Those things will pop right up, and the recommendation is really know a little bit about a lot, right? But just enough. You don't need to know, you know, all the deep down nitty-gritty details of what everything means, but if you have some familiarity, you know, "What's the conversation around automation these days," right? What's the conversation around Cloud? What's the conversation around data science? Have familiarity with the conversation around that. LinkedIn is a really great resource to go in in the search, and you can either type in, you know, the title "jobs" and type in, you know, a couple of titles, right? You can type in "data scientist," you can type in "automation," and then you can start to see, "Okay, these are some of the fields, and these are the criteria." But I would tell people even if you don't have a STEM, you know, type of background, science, technology, engineering and math, even if you don't have a STEM background, there's a space for you in technology, because we have to balance out the technologists, right? We have to balance that, and you really need strong communication skills, strong engagement skills, the ability to think not all the time at the detailed minute level, but to be able to look at things from a macro level, from a 30,000, 50,000-foot level. Be able to think about strategy. So if somebody asked me to do X, why did they ask me to do that? What other goals does it match up to? What's the bigger picture? And if you can understand the bigger picture, then that is a leg up, because in my experience folks that have a very specialized area of expertise and they only--let's say they know 90% about that and they know very little about other things, those are the people who really struggle. So you want to be--you know, not a jack of all trades because you can't, but you want to know a little bit about the big things, right, and then when you need to deep dive into them you do more. So, you know, I was on a call yesterday about some cryptography stuff, right? I haven't worked on cryptography--which they say crypto--since last year. So I had to go back and kind of read some of my notes and refamiliarize myself. "Okay, so for crypto here's what we're looking at, right? We're talking about how things are transmitted and are we making sure that the protocols are secure." So it's just a matter of knowing a little bit, and sometimes I'll be in a conversation and I'll say, you know, "I'm the least technical person here," and they're always like, "No, you seem like you understand it." Well, I understand it enough, right, to be able to articulate it, but if you ask me to, you know, write the scripts for it or--no, I'm not doing that. So I think it's really a few things, really understanding them, and just using your communication skills and your personality. And don't feel like, you know, because you're not an expert in something that that doesn't mean you're not valuable, because really most of those people aren't experts, right? And so I guess that's kind of where the impostor syndrome piece can come in for people. You're not an impostor, right? You know what you know, and there's enough resources out now that you can do research, right, to get the amount of knowledge that you need necessary to do it and do well.Amy: Vonda, thank you so much for sharing your experience and your wisdom with our audience. I really appreciate you.Vonda: Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure, and I look forward to talking with you soon.

On the seventieth installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about advocating for yourself in the workplace. With everything going on in the world, many professionals are trying to find a way to make their voice heard, whether it be on the discomfort returning to the office during COVID-19 or challenging systemic issues linked to racism. It’s difficult to speak up, especially when you depend on your job so you can pay your bills and live your life. Remember, no one knows you better than you. It’s necessary that you speak up for yourself, your ideas, and your concerns!Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What’s going on Living Corporate? It’s Tristan back again to bring you another career tip. This week I want to talk about advocating for yourself in the workplace.Many Black, Indigenous, and other professionals of color don’t often speak up for themselves or the injustices they see within the workplace out of fear of retribution. But with everything going on in the world, many professionals are trying to find a way to make their voice heard whether it be on the discomfort returning to the office during COVID-19 or challenging systemic issues linked to racism. It’s difficult to speak up, especially when you depend on your job so you can pay your bills and live your life. So I wanted to provide some tips on how to begin advocating in the workplace.The first thing to remember is that advocacy starts with you. I mean this in a couple of different ways. You first have to believe in yourself, your cause, and the fact that you deserve to be advocated for because if you aren’t firm in that belief, others won’t take it seriously and your attempts to advocate will be in vain. The second way I mean this is that you can’t advocate for others if you don’t know how to advocate for yourself. Before you start trying to advocate for others, take the time to learn how to do so for yourself. This will allow you to practice, boost your confidence, and help your find your advocacy voice. The first step in advocating is getting very clear on what the issue is. Remember that no one is a mind reader and oftentimes, people who aren’t affected by the issue have a hard time spotting it so it’s necessary to get clear on what is working and what isn’t. The next step is to develop potential solutions and present them alongside the issue. Don’t expect your boss to do the leg work because when you rely on someone else to develop solutions you could end up waiting a long time or they could also move forward with actions that don’t actually solve your problem. A major tip here is never, and I mean NEVER, ask for less in order to increase your chances of getting a yes. When you do this your boss isn’t actually aware that you are asking for less so you really only end up cheating yourself. Lastly, if you get denied don’t let that get you down. Figure out how to reframe your request or tailor it so you can build a better case.Remember no one knows you better than you. It’s necessary that you speak up for yourself, your ideas, and your concerns.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach has the honor of speaking with Dr. Jonathan Metzl, a psychiatrist and author of "Dying of Whiteness," about the concept of just that. Dr. Metzl shares a bit about his professional training, he and Zach delve into why he chose that title for his latest book, and they confront a couple criminally unjust ways in which black and brown people are classified in relation to their white counterparts. Check the links in the show notes to check out Dr. Metzl's books and more!Check out Dr. Metzl's books on Amazon and connect with him on Twitter.You can read the Toni Morrison piece Zach quoted by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.

On the twenty-seventh entry of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, provides some guidance on how you can really navigate the workplace politics and the antics and the performative allyship right now. Check the show notes to put your name on the waiting list for Latesha's Career Chasers Members Club, and don't forget to read her piece on Medium.Interested in Latesha's Career Chasers Members Club? Click here for all the information. Membership will be reopening very soon, so join the waiting list!Check out Latesha's Medium article titled "Working While Black In the Midst of Crisis & Injustice."Stop by LateshaByrd.com! Click here to check out Latesha's shop, and don't forget the 60% discount code GETTHECOINS.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Check out Latesha's YouTube channel.Connect with Byrd Career Consulting via LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTLatesha: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Link Up with Latesha. Y'all... why is it still 2020? I mean, we aren't even halfway through the year, but it feels like 2025. I feel like I've aged, you know, quite a few years within the last month. On today's episode, I wanted to provide and offer just some guidance on how you can really navigate the workplace politics and the antics and the performative allyship right now. This is an emotional time, I think, for many of us. 2020 has been a wild ride, y'all, and if you've been listening to, you know, The Link Up for a while, then you know that I'm a career coach, and so a part of my work is every day to have these conversations around what my clients are experiencing in the workplace, and when I tell you that these folks have lost their minds... [laughs] Like, people are really losing it out here. I think it's a combination of, you know, folks just kind of going crazy from staying at home and not traveling and not really having a life anymore to just being downright crazy, and as you all know, we are dealing with a lot of racism. Racism is not a new thing, right? It's been around for hundreds, hundreds of years, but it's definitely amplified just a lot more in terms of the conversations that are being brought up in the workplace now just due to all of the police brutality that has been on display for the world to see. I'm seeing a lot of content, I'm seeing a lot of messaging, for companies, leaders, for allies, on what they can do to kind of support the cause right now, but you know where I think we're really missing the mark? I don't see any content for us. Now, when I say us, I mean Black people, the ones that are really hurting right now and that are getting the short end of the stick. We don't have seats at the table to lead discussions and to talk about really dismantling the changes that need to take place within companies. We're not the ones. No, [but] we are being asked though to talk about "What does it feel like to be Black in America," you know? Like, "What? Why? Why would I want to talk about that with y'all?" You know? Like, that's the first thing that comes to mind when my clients are telling me that. They don't give us a seat at the table. I mean, we can't even see the table, you know? And I think about the glass ceiling, right, and how this term called "glass ceiling" means that, you know, women really aren't able to, you know, advance into leadership. I honestly think that, for Black women, I don't even know if there's a glass ceiling. I feel like we can't even see through the ceiling, you know what I'm saying? I don't know what that type of ceiling is, but listen, I don't think it's a glass ceiling. [laughs] And it's to the point where I think our emotions are at an all-time high, and yet we are still expected to show up and do our job and, you know, talk about what it's like being Black in America and to be that Black spokesperson for the Black delegates all over the world. Like, there is so much pressure on us, and it's frustrating for me, it's angering for me as a career coach, because I see and I hear what my clients are going through and all of the people that have reached out to me over the last week or so about, you know, really how to have these conversations and, you know, the fear of, "Well, if I don't have this conversation, you know, my employer is going to, you know, basically put a mark on my record or think that I am being difficult because I don't want to talk or I'm, you know, being aggressive if I speak up." You know? It's like we can't win. So I'm frustrated, y'all. I love us. I love being Black. I love that we are so talented and ambitious and strong, but we are tired of being strong. Like, for real, for real. So I have some tips for you. I'm gonna go ahead and get into it. Before I do that, just a couple of announcements I want to share - and I have not shared this publicly just yet, but I have a membership club called Career Chasers Member's Club. It is for Black women that are really seeking community, guidance and support as we are on this path of career greatness, chasing career greatness. Get it? [laughs] Yeah? No? Okay. Career Chasers, that's the name. Career Chasers Member's Club. So if you are looking for that community of like-minded ambitious women that are typically, you know, super smart but have lost, you know, confidence along the way, and if you're ready to invest in yourself and take control over your career, I want to welcome you to be a part of this community. We're 100 members strong, and my goal is to grow and grow and grow this thing. Excited to share that one of our members, Elise, just landed a role at Netflix in their aero-engineering team. So really excited for her. A lot of our members are getting interviews. They are really putting themselves out there with networking, because listen, y'all. These goals don't stop, and I'm gonna get off my soapbox in a minute, but these goals don't stop, you know, despite what's going on, and just remember that you being able to really step into your most highest and truest and best self professionally, that is resistance, because you are building and creating a path for someone else, right? Someone else is going to be able to look at you and say, "You know what? If she can do it, I can do it too." So more details to come on that. I'll drop the link in the show notes if you want to be on the wait list so you'll be the first to know when membership is opening up. So let's go ahead and get into what I want to talk about today. Here's the thing: I don't think that we should continue to sit in spaces that discount our experiences without letting our voices be heard. I am tired, and I think we are all tired, and I just tweeted this earlier, but I said "Companies, your Black employees are ready to throw in the tile." The TILE. [laughs] Y'all know what I'm talking about if you watch The Verses and Tyrese. Y'all know he can't spell, so he said he's ready to throw in the tile. Anyways, we are tired, but listen, here's a positive thing I think that's going on is that more ears are now open to the conversation about systemic oppression and racism, but I think that there is still a lot--and I mean, y'all know that there is a lot of work that we have to do, but I don't think we should have to censor our identities anymore. I think that now the conversation and the eyes are on us, so you can use that to your advantage, but I also don't want you all to feel pressured if you don't feel like your company has provided a safe space for you to be fully transparent about how you are feeling. Like, let me just say that, but what I do want to say is that, you know, I do think there is some genuine care and concern right now. So I do encourage you to express, like, how you're feeling about everything that's going on. It is not going to be an easy conversation. And what I'm realizing is that it seems like a lot of our white colleagues are making it harder, you know, I think in terms of race and racism. This is something that we typically talk about with each other all of the time, you know? But I'm seeing that our white colleagues are really struggling with even how to have the conversation. Like, they don't even want to say the word race or racism, you know? Or police brutality. You know, years ago Black Lives Matter was very controversial. So saying all that to say I want you to trust your intuition and do what you think you need to do to really just kind of make it through this time. If you need to take some time off, like, please do that. Like, step away from the work, because the work will always be there, you know? I'm hoping that you don't have to take PTO. Maybe your company offers wellness days or you can take a sick day, because honestly when you think about health, it's not just physical health. It's mental health too. Like, take some time and step away if you feel overwhelmed right now--and I know [for] me personally it's been an emotional rollercoaster. I have been feeling overwhelmed. I can't imagine having to go into a 9-to-5 every day and still perform and be expected to, like I said, be a speaker for the Black delegation, so if you need to, take some time away. I want you to do that, y'all. Just start taking a Monday here, a Friday here. Take a whole week if you can. Like, really step away, because you probably aren't as productive as you maybe once were before. So let me go ahead and get into some more of these tips. So like I said, be open to having the conversation when the topic does come up. Don't say--you know, if they ask, like, how you're feeling, don't say, "Oh, I'm good. What are you talking about? Everything is great." Like, you know, you don't have to do that. You don't even have to say, "You know, I'm just having a bad day," or "I'm just having an off day." Like, I would actually say, "You know what? With all of the things going on in the world, in the U.S. with police brutality and seeing, you know, people of my race, you know, being killed for the world to see, that is really affecting me right now. I'm a bit traumatized. You know, I'm not feeling my best right now due to the things that are going on, and so I do want to let you know that." Like, I don't think that we should stray away from being ourselves in these conversations for fear of making someone else feel uncomfortable, y'all get what I'm saying? Because we, as Black employees, we are typically uncomfortable at work a lot of--you know, most of the day. We just are used to working through that discomfort. So don't ever feel like you can't express how you feel for fear of making someone else feel uncomfortable. Just want to be clear on that. Let them know that you are hurt and you're sad and you're angry, things are not easy for you right now, but you are going to do the best that you can. And I think you should definitely share why you are upset. Now, there are things that I do think that you should not have to really speak to, like talking about what it means to be Black in America. I just--me personally, y'all, I just don't think that that is a productive conversation, because it's a little bit--it's infuriating, you know? We live this life. [laughs] We live this life. We can't turn our Blackness off, right? We walk outside and we're bound to have to deal with a micro-aggression at the store, at the gas station, with the neighbor, you know? Racism is always happening to us, so having to relive and tell that trauma to someone else, that just does not sit well with me, especially if you're being asked to talk about that, like I said, in a space that is not conducive to actually healing, you get what I'm saying? It's like you're putting your wounds on display to be picked at, but nobody is coming and putting a bandage, you know, on that wound. So I think that you can talk about how you're feeling, but you don't need to go on and on and on and on about the experience of actually being Black. I hope that that makes sense in terms of the difference there. Another tip is to set boundaries. First of all, y'all, don't allow your co-workers to disrespect you, to say disrespectful things or racist or misogynistic things. I think it's time for us to start to call it out and really use our voice here. End a conversation if you have to. Check somebody if you have to. If someone says something like, you know, "All lives matter," or "I don't understand what these protests are about," like, I would just kind of counter their biases and say, "Oh, really? Can you tell me more about that? Hm. So do you know what's actually--like, what's being protested, and do you know that these protests, like, didn't start out of thin air?" Y'all know it really--it really depends on, you know, how you feel and if you feel like you can have this conversation and school someone and check someone, you know, in a professional way, but you can also walk away. I just don't want you to still, like, actually put a cover on how you feel or feel like you can't, you know, speak up or defend yourself in that moment, and if you have to just end the conversation, then just do that too. But again, we're not going to just suffer in silence anymore. The next thing is to protect your peace. Protect your calendar if you can. Figure out ways to limit the amount of meetings that you're taking every day. Make sure that you are actually--I know a lot of us are still working from home. Make sure that you are taking breaks throughout the day. What I did--so I did not eat much last week. I did not sleep much last week. So what I did this week is on Monday I actually put a calendar reminder or break in my day. I put a lunch, an hour lunch break, each and every day between my meetings so I would not skip lunch. The other thing that I did is that I would just put, like, a blocked time on my calendar, meaning "This is a no-meeting time. I don't want any meetings being booked, I don't want any consultations. I don't want anything being booked during those times so I actually can step away." Also with protecting your peace right now, be mindful of the content that you're consuming, you know? There is so much content going around with all of these videos resurfacing of police brutality and, you know, just more traumatic things that we have to log on and see every day, so I have to remind myself as well to make sure that I am watching funny videos, you know? I am finding things on Hulu and Netflix that is uplifting, because I'm doing a lot of self-education as well in terms of just the history of, you konw, racism here in America, and it is exhausting, and it is infuriating, and so as much as I am interested and I'm, you know, passionate about this topic and learning more myself, it is also extremely tiring and draining, because I think about all of the things that, you know, our people have endured for generations and generations, so I actually have to remind myself to make sure that I am consuming content that is positive and that is also feeding me up and building me up. So I just want y'all to really take care of yourselves in that regard. Stay off social media if you can. I know that--every day there's something happening, y'all. It's really crazy right now. So I feel like if I take a day away from social media I feel like I miss, like, two months, you know what I'm saying? But trust me, that stuff, that content, will always be there, so take your breaks. I want to remind y'all to eat and get your rest. You know, set a bedtime. Set a bedtime. I have been up, y'all, at least last week and even just as we have been going through this pandemic, I was up late, and it's been even later, but this week I said, "You know what? I need to actually implement a bedtime." So please get your rest. The last thing I want to say is that you are not there to do the emotional labor of your white colleagues or leaders or console their white guilt, okay? We don't have to do that, and I think that's where we really need to draw the line. Like, for instance, if a white colleague is talking to you about what's going on and they are making it all about them, like, "I just can't believe this, and I think about my experience as, you know, a woman," or "I think about my experience as--" You know, they'll find a way to try to, like, relate, and it's like, "You don't understand what discrimination is really really like being a Black person. It is on a totally different level," right? So they will try to find ways to relate in that regard, or they will try to find ways to apologize about not realizing, you know? "Oh, my gosh. I just can't even imagine how you feel right now and what you're going through." Y'all, just walk away from those conversations. Just end those conversations if you have to. I don't think that we should have to give an applause or say a thank you for--"You know what? Thank you for putting all of that, projecting that pity on me. I appreciate it." Like, you don't have to do that. If they're like, "Oh, the cops are so mean. Racism is terrible." Well, you know what? What do you--it's like, "What do you want me to say?" Like, "How do you actually want me to respond to that?" Like, "Thank you?" It's like, "We live this. We are living this life every day." So that's all I have, y'all. Take care of yourself, be well. We need safe spaces right now. Create safe spaces within your home. Create safe spaces within your friendships and relationships. It's really healthy to kind of talk about these things and not hold it all in. If you can get a therapist at this time and seek professional help, please do that. I encourage everyone to look at their company's employee assistance plans or company's EAPs. So talk to HR about that and see what options are available to you to actually provide some type of support, you know? Because like I said, you have to take care of you, and I just want to make sure that, you know, you all are doing that. The last thing I'll say is if you feel like you want to see change in your organization, feel free to speak up, you know? Feel free to be a part of those conversations, but you also don't have to be forced. Like, I don't want you to feel forced to do that. If you need to opt out of conversations for your own peace, then you can do that as well, but if this is something that you're passionate about and you feel like you can drive change and make an impact in the workplace, then I encourage you to do that as well. So basically what I'm saying here, y'all, is there is no right way to do this. I think resistance really shows up in different ways for many of us, so figure out your way and know that you just showing up to work is enough. You being Black in America, you know, is enough. So I'm thinking of you all. Definitely engage with Living Corporate on social media. I know Zach and team is really taking all of this in and hearing and listening to the audience right now and just trying to make sure that we are as supportive for you all as possible. So all right, y'all. I will talk to you all soon. Peace.

On the sixty-ninth entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield discusses the impact of authenticity during your job search and career. A 2016 study published in the Administrative Science Quarterly showed that 25% of Black candidates received interview callbacks if their resumes were scrubbed of racial cues whereas only 10% of Black candidates got calls when they left ethnic details intact. While scrubbing your resume clearly produces results in securing jobs, if a company rules you out because of your name, your natural hair, or your Black organizational affiliations, or any other reason related to your race... is that really a company you’d want to work for?Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What’s going on Living Corporate? It’s Tristan from Layfield Resume Consulting. This week, I’m not necessarily giving a tip but I wanted to discuss the impact of authenticity during your job search and career.Most Black and Brown professionals are well aware of bias they may experience throughout the job search because somewhere down the line we were taught that we needed to hide parts of ourselves to try to land the jobs that we want. From “whitening” our resume by not using our real name to switching up the way we speak during interviews, we are always aware (sometimes consciously and sometimes not) that our race can and most likely has played a factor in hiring decisions.Recently, I had a Black client who is a whole doctor ask me if she should use her real name on her resume for fear of how the recruiters and hiring managers would view her. I had another Black woman tell me that she didn’t want to take a new headshot for LinkedIn right now because she had in braids and she didn’t want potential employers to think she was “too ethnic.” I had another Black male client who asked me if highlighting his leadership with a professional Black organization would decrease his chances of getting calls for interviews.These are the types of questions and comments I hear from many of my Black clients and I completely get their concerns. A 2016 study published in the Administrative Science Quarterly showed that 25% of Black candidates received interview callbacks if their resumes were scrubbed of racial cues whereas only 10% of Black candidates got calls when they left ethnic details intact. The study even showed that you may be at an even greater risk for discrimination when applying to a pro-diversity employer because candidates tend to be more transparent. So the issue is very real and the tactics we’ve developed clearly produce results in getting us jobs. But I fear we may be setting ourselves up for a fairly tough work experience.The job search, interview, and even the first couple of days on the job are the times when you are laying the foundation of your relationship with the company and vice versa. When your foundation is based on the scrubbed version of you, I’ve found that you tend to get boxed into that version. I’ve seen this lead to us feeling like we’re not seen in the workplace or like we can’t truly be ourselves at work, a place where we spend large majority of our time. And when we decide it’s time to show true pieces of ourselves we start to get pushback from our colleagues and leadership that can take on many different forms, most typically having a negative impact on us. This produces an uncomfortable and, at times, unsafe work environment for us which puts us in a position where we feel we have to leave a company even though we may like the work we are doing.So when my clients ask me if they should present themselves differently to land a role, it’s always a hard question for me to answer because there are obviously risks on both sides. The data clearly shows the answer is yes but the lived experiences show how detrimental shrinking yourself for a job can be. So I always pose the question, if a company rules you out because of your name, your natural hair, or your Black organizational affiliations, or any other reason related to your race…is that really a company you’d want to work for?This episode was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with award-winning journalist and author Pamela Newkirk to discuss the historical failure of diversity and inclusion. They talk a bit about her 2019 work "Diversity, Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business," and Pamela explains how and why transparent metrics across the board are the first step to actively addressing any diversity problem. She also implores institutions that truly want to embrace diversity to just stop doing what they've been doing and lean into the successful models that can be readily replicated that already exist out there. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about Pamela's work!Connect with Pamela on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Interested in Pamela's books? Click here to read more about them on Amazon.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and it's a Tuesday. You know, it's interesting--as a sidenote, y'all, you know, we pride ourselves in recording content in bulk, and, you know, we had a lot of different, interesting content that we were gonna share, but because of just where we are, we had to really shift some things. So thank you in advance for the folks being gracious with us, 'cause I know we'll--you know, a little bit behind the scenes. You know, we'll tell folks when we post and things of that nature, and we've had to change a lot of different things just because of where we are as a nation. And, you know, with that being said, y'all should know, if you don't know maybe you're a first-time listener. We actually are a platform that exists to center and amplify marginalized voices at work, and of course, again, considering where we are today, this work is all the more important, and we're really blessed and excited for the guest that we have today, Ms. Pamela Newkirk. Pamela Newkirk is an award-winning journalist whose articles have been published in the New York Newsday, the New York Times, and other publications. She's written a book called Spectacle, which was named one of the best books of 2015 by NPR, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Boston Globe, and The Root. It won an NAACP Image Award. She's the editor of Letters From Black America and A Love No Less:" More Than Two Centuries of African-American Love Letters and is the author of Within the Veil: Black Journalists, White Media, which won the National Press Book Club award for media criticism. In addition to this, and what we're really excited to talk to her about today, she is the author of the 2019 incredible seller Diversity Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business. Ms. Newkirk, how are you?Pamela: I'm fine considering all that's going on in the world. Zach: I hear you. I'm exhausted, frustrated, anxious. I'm still somehow hopeful though.Pamela: Yeah, you know, I think that's kind of where I'm coming out on this. I have seen more progress over the past few days than I have in the 20 years that I've been writing about diversity and race and inclusion. Like, suddenly it seems to be breaking through, and I think there is no longer a place to hide and to pretend you're innocent or ignorant about what African-Americans are living through day-by-day. You know, as if the George Floyd travesty, tragedy, was not enough, we're still seeing constantly these videotaped images of police officers, you know, brutalizing peaceful protestors. So it's like suddenly it's all out in the open, and while those of us who have been living this for our entire lives, none of this is new to us. We've been saying it. We've been documenting it. But for some reason, the constellation of incidents, you know, from Amy Cooper to Ahmaud Arbery to then the most shocking, horrifying video of George Floyd being murdered on camera, this, you know, continuing saga of the African-American experience, to finally break through to the mainstream of white America. Zach: You know, it's interesting that you go there, 'cause I was curious, you know, in your book, Diversity Inc., you talk about the adverse impacts of unconscious bias training and how it's been proven to be ineffective, and yet that still seems to be, like, the mainstay or, like, for some organizations, like, their crown jewel. Like, they build everything around unconscious bias, the concept of unconscious bias, training around unconscious bias, you know, language that really focuses on bias only being unconscious.Pamela: Right. It's like drive-through diversity. You know, drive-by diversity. That's what the civil rights lawyer Cyrus Merry calls it. Companies are willing to spend billions of dollars every year on all of these, you know, the apparatus of diversity, but they're not willing to devote their money to interventions to actually doing diversity, actually hiring a diverse workforce. It's not that complicated, it's not rocket science, and yet, you know, we live in a world where you can go on Google and find out almost anything, and yet even in major cities companies pretend that they cannot find, you know, diverse candidates. It's really absurd, and I think, you know, that the level of frustration and the number of people out on the streets is now really shining a bright light on injustice writ large. It's not only the injustice of police brutality. Racial injustice has just been normalized, you know? Whether it's African-Americans dying of COVID at, you know, 4x the rate of whites, whether it's the radical underrepresentation of African-Americans in practically every professional field. You know, the health disparities. You go down the line, and we have, for centuries, normalized this as if it's, like, determined by God that we should have, you know, these kinds of disparities when it really is a function of policies and practices that are human-made, right?Zach: Right, right. No, I agree with you. You know, I want to ask you a question about the book title before we get to the next question. It's Diversity Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business. Can we talk about what promise corporate D&I has failed to deliver on?Pamela: Oh, God. You name it. I mean... so, you know, in doing the book, I wanted to interrogate the tension between the rhetoric of diversity, the apparatus of diversity, you know, the diversity czars and the diversity studies and the diversity reports and the diversity organizations and all of this--you know, this huge apparatus. You know, the climate surveys, the training. I wanted to look at--you know, we're devoting so much time to that, and why we consistently fail to achieve diversity. Like, what's going on? Why are we spending billions of dollars on something that has been shown year after year to fail? Like, it just... it seems ludicrous, but yet, you know, you have a company like Google that will spend more than 100 million dollars a year on diversity initiatives and year-after-year end up with a workforce in which African-Americans are, like, 2% of the employees in tech. Like, how do you spend that much money and fail so spectacularly year after year, and could that money instead be used to actually hire... [laughs] Silly me! Like, do you really need to train 30 and 40 and 50-year-olds to think differently about people of color who are just, like, totally missing in those spaces? How about bringing some of those people in those spaces? And guess what, they're gonna have to learn how to deal with them. They would be their colleagues. Like, I don't need to be trained on how to deal with diverse populations, but I do need a job, and if I am in a workplace that has people from different walks of life and different races and different, you know, whatever, I mean, I will learn how to deal with that. I don't need to be trained.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting, because to your point, we talk about this training. It doesn't go anywhere, and frankly I'm frustrated by the space. And so as I continue to look at it I see certain patterns, and it seems almost like diversity and inclusion is a space where--I'm gonna paint with broad brushes here, but you know what? It's my podcast and I can do that. So it seems as if diversity and inclusion as an industry is, like, a space where white women can go to, like, help them with their careers or to help give them certain levels of access or profile. So I've explicitly seen white women, like, talk about diversity and inclusion at, like, these big platforms, like, at Davos, right? And they'll stand up there and they'll say something fairly pedestrian if not outright obvious, but they're applauded for it, and it's like they're applauded by other white people. So it's almost like a community within itself, right? Like, they use a lot of language that we really don't understand.Pamela: Right, and worse than that. I'm gonna go further on your podcast. [both laugh] Diversity has come to mean everything and nothing. What is diversity? Most institutions don't even agree on what diversity is. Diversity could be more women, more white women, diversity could be more LGBTQ, and they can be white. Diversity could be people with mental or physical, you know, issues, and they can be white. So diversity can totally eclipse racial diversity and still, to many institutions, qualify as diversity. You know, the diversity czar at Apple went so far as to say 12 blonde blue-eyed white men could illustrate diversity because of their different backgrounds. So this diversity has--which is why, in my book, I focus on racial diversity, because I think race has sort of been set aside, you know? Because supposedly after the election of Barack Obama we were suddenly a post-race nation. You know, people are not saying that anymore. No, not today, but they were saying that, you know, for 8 years, and here we are, you know, with the same issues and with the needle barely moving for decades in most influential fields, whether we're talking about journalism or academia or museums or the law firms. Like, look around, and while all of these institutions will wave the diversity flag, very few of them are diverse.Zach: Right, especially when you start looking higher and higher, right? So when you start looking at spaces for the folks who actually make decisions and really are responsible--like, who own a P&L, like, that's where you start just seeing--I mean, you may at best see a sprinkling of non-white people, and that's not even to say black people. You might only see a sprinkle of just non-white people. And so I'm curious, when we talk about this space, and you kind of alluded to it when I asked you about how you're feeling and talked about hope, but I want to talk about the fact that we had Howard Bryant, ESPN senior contributor, NPR contributor, on the podcast on Saturday, and I shared that I think right now is a watershed moment essentially exposing how by and large inept diversity and inclusion is at really engaging black and brown employees explicitly. And I'm curious, do you think that we're in such a moment?Pamela: You know, I'm hopeful. Of course, you know, the proof is gonna be in the pudding, you know, whether we actually see change, but I do--you know, I'm heartened by seeing so many white people even out on the streets, you know, protesting. You know, that's not something that we've seen. You know, Black Lives Matter has really been limited to black and brown people who have been out there on the frontlines of that battle, and it's almost as if white people have, like, cast themselves as sort of innocent bystanders in this whole racial conversation. Like, they have, like, really nothing to do with it when they have everything to do with it, and so it's really encouraging to me to at least see whites engaging in a way that I have not seen in my lifetime.Zach: It's incredible that you say that. I was speaking to my father this morning, and he said, "Son, I'm 55 years old, and I've never seen this in my life." It's incredible. So here's what's scary, police been beating us, you know, since antebellum, but to see white folks out there getting beat down alongside us...Pamela: Yeah, but we have to remember that white abolitionists were treated [just?] as badly, you know? During slavery, white abolitionists were killed, you know, just as readily as black people were. So it's really not that unusual. What's unusual is that they're out there, you know? They're out there holding signs saying "Black Lives Matter." I mean, that, I do think it's a watershed moment just for that. I think there are people who are being really cynical about the level of activism we're seeing, saying they're performing, you know, racial politics or whatever. All I know is that they hadn't done that in all of the days of my life, and so the fact that many are now openly expressing their horror in a way that they should have all along--I mean, no doubt, but the fact that they're doing it now, I welcome it, because, like, hello, welcome to, you know, your humanity, you know? We're all implicated in this, and black people should never have been the only ones to single out police brutality, racial inequality, the radical underrepresentation in all of these workplaces. That, you know, injustice affects all of us. And, I mean, I do understand that white people have benefitted from inequality, but they're also paying the price of inequality as well. I mean, you know, no justice no peace. There won't be peace in the land as long as you have a system that's so blatantly unjust. Zach: And so, you know, you talked about white folks coming out and supporting and having Black Lives Matter. I'ma tell you, Ms. Newkirk, when I knew it was a thing was when this Amish came out there. [both laugh] I said, "How did y'all even get the word?"Pamela: I guess what got me was the thousands of people in Berlin, you know? And in Paris and in London. You know? Australia. I mean, around the world, you know, the whole world is watching.Zach: And so, you know, we've talked a little bit about what we think this is. There are plenty of organizations, right, that are--and I say this as someone who, because of my network, I'm able to see... like, I know the diversity and inclusion consulting spaces and stuff out there, right? And I'm seeing there's a sharp uptick in demand for [?]. Pamela: Oh, my God. My phone is ringing off the hook and I don't do diversity training, and I tell them I don't do diversity training. "If you've read my book, you'd know how I felt about it." But I know a lot of people who do it and, you know, you're welcome to, like, speak to them. I'm all in for a candid conversation about what you can do differently to change the game, but I don't think it's something that you need someone in week after week--I mean, if that's gonna help you get to a place where you actually, you know, create opportunity for non-white people, if that's what it's gonna take, fine, but all of the studies have pretty much conclusively shown that training doesn't work. The numbers they report year after year show that training doesn't work too because most Fortune 500 companies have been doing this training for years and the numbers don't budge. And yeah, there's that Harvard study by Frank Dobbin that shows that these studies, especially when it's mandatory training, it triggers a backlash among white men who, instead of supporting diversity, it makes them even more resentful of it. And even worse, the study showed that 5 years after this training, the percentage of black women and Asian men and women actually decreased, their numbers in management. So why are companies doing the same things and expecting different results?Zach: And it's interesting because they're coming in and they're doing that, right? Like, the same training. I agree that ultimately--the whole idea of "We need to come and have a dialogue" is frustrating, because I feel like we've dialoguing--I'm 30, and I feel like we've been dialoguing for a long time.Pamela: Oh, my God. I've been in journalism and higher ed for more than 30 years, longer than you've been alive, and it's the same conversation. It's the same conversation from, you know, the 1960s, you know? And I guess the optimistic way of looking at it is--and, you know, after the uprising in the 1960s when the doors finally opened to people of color in fields that had historically excluded them, we did see, you know, the numbers jump up, you know, considerably. We saw more African-Americans, Latinos and others going to colleges, you know, entering fields that they had been excluded from, but as that progress became to metastastize, then we came into the '80s and we had this backlash against diversity, you know, under Reagan, and we had this, you know, systemic dismantling of every policy, every practice.Zach: All those social programs got gutted, yeah.Pamela: Yes, everything got gutted, and then the backlash--we're still living in that backlash to the progress that had been made. So, you know, the interesting thing is that all of these institutions can turn on a dime when they're ready, when they want to. Like, we're seeing companies now suddenly devote millions of dollars. I just heard Bain is gonna, you know, donate 100 million to, you know, black causes, and all of these things are suddenly happening, so it's so easy for them to turn it around, to open that spigot, but what has been lacking is the leadership, the will, and the intention.Zach: Yeah, yeah. And to your point, right, we've seen this organizations--a lot of these organizations, these big ones, like, they solve big problems. They solve really big problems. But the frustrating thing for me I think is that we treat racism as an abstract, right? So we'll say things like, "Well, we just need to open our hearts and minds." It's like, "We don't really actually need to open our hearts and minds. We just need to tie these things back into tangible outcomes." You know, create and add new policies that hold and drive accountability, increase transparency, and make certain demands and expectations, right? Like I said, I'm alluding back to the Saturday episode, but it's just fresh in my mind, because I think about the fact that Howard Bryant, he said, you know, "The reason you come in [and] you don't sexually harass somebody isn't--you know, it may be because you're a decent person." [both laugh] Pamela: It may be, and it may be because you'll get fired.Zach: You know that there's gonna be consequences and repercussions if you come in here acting stupid, harassing women or harassing anybody, saying something inappropriate. You know that.Pamela: Exactly. And do you need a training program to tell you that?Zach: I genuinely don't, and I loathe every single one of them. But you're right.Pamela: Yeah, and the thing is it's not even that I'm just so against the idea of training--even though I kind of am, but if there was anything, any proof, that they actually helped realize diversity, I'd be all about it, you know? There are measures that we know work, and I just don't understand why we keep doing something that has not borne fruit and we ignore the things that do, and that leads me to believe that there's not an honest intention to actually realize diversity.Zach: I agree. So some of it to me is, like, when you talk about, like, programming for diversity, equity and inclusion, you know, it's typically some type of instructor-led training, but a lot of studies continue to show that being able to have authentic conversations and build stories, again, tying and really having the critical conversations to tie goals and values to policy, is really what drives results, but we're just still not there yet. I'm curious, again, there are plenty of organizations who are just now trying to build, like, some type of office, right? Some type of council or department or whatever you want to call it. What would you say are some of the biggest mistakes folks--and when I say folks I mean organizations--commit when they try to launch initiatives or departments or groups like this?Pamela: Yeah, I think the biggest mistake is that the leadership sort of farms out this diversity issue to the most marginalized person in the organization, which is usually the diversity czar, whatever they call the diversity professional in that organization. Usually that person is the most marginalized executive of the team. It's usually a person of color or a woman, and they usually don't have much power, and so don't do that, and if you're going to do that, if you're gonna go that route, then you have to empower that person to actually get results. One thing that we've seen from studies, there was a study done a year ago, a survey of Fortune 500 D&I professionals, and I think it was somewhere around 65% did not even have access to the metrics, the diversity metrics, in the organization they work for. So how could they hope to fix a problem that they can't even see, right? So they're shooting in the dark. We know the most effective way to tackle a diversity problem is first to have transparent metrics across job categories, across, you know, bonus systems, any kind of award systems. Who's getting, who's not? Right? You know, you have to look under the hood and see what's actually happening in these companies, because we know with unconscious bias you can keep blaming everything on unconscious bias, but whether it's conscious or unconscious, let's see how it's working in your organization. Only then can you hope to even have an intervention, you know? Whether it's in your promotion system, it's your hiring system, it's looking at, you know, who's even being interviewed for positions, you know? What kind of outreach are you doing? So you have to have transparent metrics across the board. It is the first step, and once you do that then you can hope to have the kind of interventions that will allow you to actively address the problem. It's what--I do a chapter on what happened at Coca-Cola after they were sued for racial discrimination, and part of the settlement was having this task force that oversaw what they were doing to correct the problem, and over 5 years they were able to make substantial improvements through a system of transparent metrics and accountability.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I think when we talk about metrics--and it goes back just to, like, the lack of inclusion in this work, but when you talk about metrics it presumes that the people who are measuring understand what they're measuring for, right? But if you have a group--and there's plenty of articles, you know, op-eds, analysis, reports, all kinds of things about just how behind the majority population on matters of race, so then why would that same population then be responsible for measuring the nuances of race and diversity? [both laugh]Pamela: Are you saying the fox is guarding the chicken coop? Is that what you're saying? [laughs]Zach: Absolutely. Absolutely it is.Pamela: Well, yeah. So if you're not allowing the person charged with increasing diversity, if you're not giving them access to those numbers, you know, you're hiding something for one thing, right? And you're handcuffing them. There's no way that they can hope to correct those issues without having that kind of information. I mean, that's just basic to their job, but yet you talk to most D&I people and they don't have access to that.Zach: And what's also interesting about that is that--I don't know, there's different levels, right? Because the other piece, you talked about power, and I've been--Living Corporate has been a bit more intentional in calling out, like, the ethics of power and how all of these things work, right? Because you just rarely ever see the person who's really driving diversity, equity and inclusion be somebody that really has authority, and they're not respected in the space because typically their role is something internal. You know, they're not necessarily driving any type of revenue, so they're not gonna really be heard. And on top of that sometimes compounded is the complexity that you have organizations that will get somebody who is black or brown, but again make them junior, so not only do they not have the formal hierarchal power, they don't even have the social capital that comes with being white to really navigate and do their jobs well because they're, you know, often times tokenized.Pamela: Right. It really comes down to leadership, because in any organization people know what matters and what doesn't matter, right? You know if a person really has power or if they just have a title. Like, it's not hard to figure out, you know, who you have to respect and who you can ignore and, you know, what they stand for, so it really does come down to leadership and if leaders are gonna continue to farm this issue out to marginalized people, be they consultants or, you know, a diversity person who really has no power, you know? We're not gonna see any progress in that space. And, I mean, looking at all of these fields that have not changed in all of this time, that has to be willful, and so it's gonna take will to change that, and I hope that we're living in a time now where people realize that, you know, this is not a sustainable situation.Zach: It's not, and that actually leads me to my next question. I want to quote an excerpt from your book. "The quest for racial diversity has long been an uphill crusade, but now it's waged in a far more polarized climate in which many whites now claim they are being disenfranchised as others are afforded undue advantage. An NPR poll conducted in 2017 found that 55% of white Americans believe that they are discriminated against while, tellingly, a lower percentage said that they actually have experienced discrimination. A Reuters survey in 2017 found that 39% of whites polled agreed with the statement that quote, "White people are currently under attack in this country," end quote." So I'm quoting this because the reality of this, I believe, is still showing up in 2020 in that a significant percentage of white D&I experts, quote-unquote, they have the opinion that white folks, particularly white men, need to be included, because if you don't include them, then you're essentially violating your own principles by excluding them. [both laugh] And so I'm curious, like, especially as we see an uptick in focus on black lives and really working--you know, there's a lot of folks downloading and buying books on anti-racism and, like, you know, there's really a push for that right now. Do you see this trend increasing?Pamela: Oh, definitely, but we're just weeks into it. [laughs] So I can't tell you where it's headed, you know? But I see that as a good thing, you know, because for years, for decades, you know, African-Americans and other scholars of color and journalists have been doing this work, and often times we're preaching to the choir, you know? And now to see so many whites leaning in to this scholarship and to the idea of anti-racism, not only, you know, relating to members of, you know, skinheads or the Ku Klux Klan, but could implicate the average white person, you know? Reading Robin DiAngelo's work, White Fragility, she talks about the ways in which whites perpetuate white supremacy, but they do it in a way that they feel they're just neutral in it. They don't see how they are helping by either their silence or by just holding these deeply embedded ideas about race and merit and who actually deserves the kind of privilege that many whites enjoy. Like, are they African-Americans? Maybe there are a few who they see as deserving the kind of privilege that they enjoy, but that's the exception, not the rule. So these ideas are so deeply embedded in the white American psyche that it will take, you know, some time to kind of dismantle an idealogy that has been rooted in the history of this country, right, from the very beginning, and these ideas did not bubble up from the ground up. They were taught in places like Harvard and Princeton and Yale and Columbia University, you know? So this whole idea of science, you know, was rooted in this notion of African inferiority and European superiority.Zach: Yeah, measuring skull size and all that kind of stuff.Pamela: Yeah, so we're not that far removed from that. That idealogy is still very much a part of the American ethos, and until that is exposed and examined by the people who hold those ideas, we're gonna continue to see it play out in so many ways.Zach: And to your point, when we talk about racism--there are folks who I have, colleagues, associates, whatever, right, and we'll talk about racism, and a lot of times we'll talk about it, like, in forms--like, "It's out there." Like, it's "out there." Like, that's why George Floyd--because of systemic racism, that's why George Floyd was murdered in the street on camera with no accountability until we had riots, but the challenge and I think the next step as we look at this work, to your point around, like, really addressing and interrogating it, is analyzing what the same systems that allow those types of things to happen, the Amy Coopers of the world, those systems persist here too in work. Pamela: Exactly, and it's being able to kind of position yourself within the space. Like, where are you? Like, how do you benefit from this system, and what do you do with your privilege? And it's not enough just not to be actively racist. Like, in what ways are you anti-racist? In what ways are you working to dismantle injustice? And that's the next step for the so-called decent whites who I don't think are, you know, actively racist, but they're complicit in a racially injustice system through their silence, through their inaction. They work in these spaces, and they're not using their forums and their positions to tackle something that is so persistent and perverse.Zach: You know, I just started really thinking about, again, like, connecting historical racist idealogies and beliefs in America and then, like, how they show up at work. And so, like, an example that I think about, and I'm not a researcher and, like, I've talked to some friends and, like, I really want to put some research together on this, but, like, when you think about the history of black women and how they've been treated in this country and how essentially--there's been all kinds of writing on how there was a belief that essentially black women--black people across the board, but black women specifically--they don't feel pain in the same waysa that white women do, right?Pamela: Ugh, right. The black superwoman, yeah.Zach: Right? So in fact a lot of the understandings that we have about the female anatomy comes from the abuse of black female slaves. But this idea that, you know, black women are just tougher and, like, stronger inherently or biologically, you know? And we see that in sports, right? Like, Serena Williams is, like, a classic example of that and also why she wasn't heard and she almost died when she had her child, but I think that mentality and that attitude, it persists in the workplace as well, and it shows up in the workplace by way of black women being overworked and underappreciated.Pamela: Right. Well, you know, it's what history has demanded of us, right? We had to be stronger. Like, what was the alternative to that? Being beaten more? Being raped more? So paradoxically it's partly true that that's why we're still here.Zach: Right, by means of survival.Pamela: Right, but, you know, we haven't been given the opportunity to show weakness and to cry when things happen, things go wrong, you know? That fragility that may be afforded a white woman doesn't work for us.Zach: And I think we could find, like, similar... I guess my point is, like, that the meta-narrative doesn't stop, and so when you talk about systemic racism--so I'm the son of an English teacher, so, like, I'm very sensitive about words, right? So if you're gonna use a word like "systemic," then be comfortable with interrogating the concept that whatever you're talking about reaches as far as you can see and beyond that. And so, you know, when we talk about, like, we just talked about science and a lot of the racist concepts in considering that black folks were inherently inferior.Pamela: Right. And, I mean, those ideas are still debated, you know, just--like it was, like, 10 years ago, maybe it was a little more than that, when Newsweek and Time had, like, this big debate going about, you know, the bell curve.Zach: People still talk about the bell curve.Pamela: People still do, and, I mean, it's still with us, even if it's not as polite today to [?], it's still very much with us. Even if people don't say it, that idealogy persists.Zach: Exactly, and so it's like, "Okay, not only was this--" Like, at one point in time this was rigorous, firmly accepted, widely, globally accepted academic truth, and now it's waned into being impolite conversation...Pamela: Precisely, but still true. [laughs]Zach: Right, but still believed to be true.Pamela: But it's PC to now say it.Zach: Right, so it's not unreasonable then to believe that majority counterparts presume or have some conscious or unconscious beliefs that black people are inferior, and that comes up in language like, "They're not as strategic," or "They don't think as critically," or whatever, but it's subtle, and [?]--Pamela: Or that they're natural athletes or natural artists. Like, nothing comes out of a thinking place. [laughs]Zach: Right. "They're creative, but they're not strategic," right? And it shows up in a lot of genteel language, but you talked about Robin DiAngelo and you talked about white fragility. You know, we had her on the podcast a little while ago, and--you shared it actually on Twitter. Thank you for that.Pamela: I did, because I think it's so timely.Zach: It is. And when we talk about white fragility--and for the sake of just kind of level-setting, right, it's essentially the low fluency and resilience white folks have with regards to engaging matters of race, especially discussing where they may be the perpetrators of conscious or unconscious racist behaviors.Pamela: But then think about it. There are no penalties for them not knowing so much about the history of race in this country, you know? I've written about this. You could do a doctorate, a post-doc, and never have to meaningfully confront the history of race in this country, you know? You don't have to know about what happened to the Irish and what happened to, you know, Italians and Greek people at the turn of the century and how, you know, they were demeaned. You don't have to know how race operates and how it is just, like, so deeply embedded in the whole system of this country, and so because you may know who some of the major contributors to American history were who happen to be African-American, they never have to know. They don't have to know who Fredrick Douglass is, Booker T. Washington. Like, all of the people who I grew up just knowing because my parents taught me, I would never be penalized on an SAT for not knowing that. So they've been able to skate through life without understanding why it is that we have this kind of systemic imbalance around race, and they think it's because of merit. They think it's because they worked harder. They think, "Well, slavery was abolished in the 1860s, so what's the problem? You've had all this time." They don't look at the ways in which that system is still very much actively working against any kind of racial equality, you know, racial justice. And so when you're, like, just ignorant and not penalized for that ignorance, like, it's not totally the fault--you know, I have white students who sometimes are in tears in my class. I teach a class that examines the history of racial portrayals of marginalized groups, and they say "How is it that I'm in college and I never learned any of this history?" Like, it's not their fault, you know? Because only those who choose to elect--and these are electives that they would take to learn about this--like, it's not required. These courses are so marginalized, and they're so important for white people to have a sense of all of the ways in which they have been privileged throughout history without knowing that they're twicely just ignorant. Zach: And to your point though, right, you have this group who--so, like, let's talk about the workplace. So you have this group that has never had to really critically engage around race, never had to engage around how their own behaviors have been harmful to folks who don't look like them. Now all of a sudden, no matter [?]--like you said, this just really got started, right? We're just a couple weeks in, but let's say this goes on for two years, whatever, you know, suddenly there's going to be--you go from, like, not moving at all to almost running at a rabbit's pace, and I'm curious about with the current client focusing on black people, black experiences and really continuing to unpack that, how would you advise, like, a majority-white leadership space mitigate burn-out? Because they just don't have--again, we talk about white fragility, they don't have the bandwidth and they don't have the cardiovascular, right, to keep up.Pamela: Well, you know, I think they do, you know? I think these institutions have been so afraid to engage these matters and now they're seeing the consequences of kind of their hands-off policy, you know? We've made the progress we have made due to uprisings in the 1960s, because all of that scholarship was out there then, but no one listened until buildings started building and, you know, people started feeling kind of unsafe, and then suddenly everyone leaned in [?], and I think we're in that same kind of space right now where I think people are honestly leaning in--I mean, I've gotten notes over the past week from colleagues who, you know, kind of didn't really--I guess they saw me as kind of a radical, and now all of a sudden they're seeing my ideas as mainstream. So they're writing me like, "Wow, you know, you were prescient." It's like, "No, I wasn't. You just weren't paying attention." Everything that we're seeing has been happening all along. Nothing is new. The only thing that has changed is that white people are suddenly acknowledging the truth that has been with us all of this time. So now that they are, I do believe that we can begin to--first of all, there's so much out there. There's so many scholars of color and professionals of color and people who are ready to, like, get in there, right, and contribute to all of these institutions that have ignored them, devalued them, you know? Not hired them. You know, these institutions are about to be enriched, you know, if they truly embrace the diversity that is available, you know? Well-trained, well-educated, just ready, ready to jump in and help these organizations become more just places, and I do believe that if they continue to lean in in the ways they have over the past few weeks, I think a lot of good can come from this moment.Zach: And do you think--let me ask this then. So do you think that will offset the amount of folks who are uncomfortable and end up, you know, going elsewhere or--Pamela: What do you mean?Zach: Yeah, so what I mean is, like, do you think the amount of folks that come in and they deliver learning and folks grow, and they increase black and brown engagement through hiring and of course, like, retaining the talent that they have, do you think that will offset the amount of white folks who just find all of this offensive and disengage?Pamela: You mean like the 57 police officers in Buffalo that resigned because two of their colleagues were suspended for, like, critically injuring an elderly white man? You know, I don't think that's gonna happen, you know? Because first of all people need employment, and yeah, you know, I think that you're always gonna have that percentage of, you know, just straight up white supremacists who are not going to be in spaces where there are people of color, and, you know, good riddance, but I don't think that's gonna be the biggest roadblock to having diverse environments, because I don't think they're gonna give up all of these fields, you know? I don't think they're just gonna suddenly say, "Oh, here. Take my privileged position at this law firm or in this company," you know? But I think people can learn to work together. In fact, I think that is the best way to condition people to deal with different kinds of people is just to put them in the same space where they see that, "Oh, this person is not, like, a Martian. This person actually has kind of similar values," and then they begin to see that there was nothing that frightening to begin with. But I think when you continue--you know, we live in a rigidly segregated society, and most white people don't have to be in spaces where there are people of color, and particularly people of color who are peers, you know? They may be in the mail room or, you know, delivering their food, but to have people of color who are your peers, many white people don't have that experience, and they certainly don't have that experience of having people of color who are neighbors, who go to the same church, who go to the same--we live in such segregated worlds, and that kind of segregation becomes a self-replicating situation in the workplace, right, because people hire who they know, they hire who their friends recommend, they hire from this very closed off world, and until you can break that up, you know, and have a far more diverse workplace, you're gonna continue to have that kind of self-replication.Zach: Ms. Newkirk, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Pamela: Well, you know, I guess the thing that I'm most hopeful about is that there are successful models that can be readily replicated, and if institutions truly want to embrace diversity they need to just stop doing what they've been doing and lean into models that have proven to be successful.Zach: Well, there you have it, y'all. This has been Living Corporate. Like, we do this every single week. We're having real talk in a corporate world, and we center and we amplify marginalized voices at work by having black and brown thought leaders of all types of varieties on the platform. You make sure you check us out. Just Google Living Corporate. I ain't about to shout out all the places we on 'cause we all over Barack Obama's internet, so just type in Living Corporate and you'll catch us. 'Til next time, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Pamela Newkirk, award-winning journalist, educator, speaker and author. Peace, y'all.

Zach has the honor of welcoming Howard Bryant back to the podcast on this special Saturday episode. He and Howard touch on several elements of our current civil rights protest, and Howard graciously explains why he disagrees with the sentiment that white folks are just now really understanding and seeing the evils of racism. Check the links in the show notes for ways to pledge your support!*This episode features occasional explicit language.*Connect with Howard on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and don't forget to check out his website.Learn more about Howard's latest book, Full Dissidence, by clicking here.Interested in finding out more about Howard's other books? Click here to be redirected to his Amazon page.Donate to Black Lives Matter by clicking here.Split a donation between 70+ community bail funds, mutual aid funds, and racial justice organizers by clicking here.You can pledge your support to a variety of institutions by clicking the following links: Know Your Rights Camp, NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, and Campaign Zero.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and I have my daughter Emory in my lap. Say something, Emory. You gonna say something? No? Okay. And, you know, this is not the norm, right? Like, typically you're gonna listen to See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger or The Link Up with Latesha with Latesha Byrd. However, as we look at the world around us and the chaos that continues around us--like, we're not teetering towards chaos, we are in a chaotic time. And we see the state by way of their police force abusing everybody. It's a unique time, and so we wanted to make sure today--not Tuesday, but today--that we actually had a really in-depth and frank conversation with someone who understands the concept of dissidence, and that's Howard Bryant. Howard Bryant is a senior contributor and writer for both ESPN and NPR, and he wrote a book titled Full Dissidence, and it tackled the reality of protest, and he really analyzed and assessed Colin Kaepernick's protest and really broke down white power structures that maintain the status quo in spite of dissidence. And, you know, we also talked a little bit about--and you're gonna hear this--the responses of many of these corporations and how authentic they were in actually addressing the problem. And so, you know, one point of feedback, and you'll notice this, is that organizations are going to--and they're doing it now, and they're going to continue [to do it]--to treat racism as this abstract concept, and so it's up to those who are in positions of authority and have courage to speak to tie those words and concepts into tangible actions, right? So it's not enough to say, you know, "We have to do better and be better and treat people better and open our hearts and minds." That's not actually what changes. What changes is actually structures and policies to actually make a difference, right? Enacting pillars or means of accountability and repercussions for bad behavior. That's how you change, and so to all the organizations who are seeking to make these statements, understand, like, we're in a different place, and folks are looking to hold folks accountable in a different way. [laughs] I just saw a Google Sheet that's been going around that actually really starts getting tangible about how authentic some of these folks are when it comes to anti-racism, and, you know, it doesn't just stop out there. It continues within organizations, right? Like, your company does not have this magic barrier that stops racism, and so that's important, and so we talk about that, and I wanted to make sure--because we didn't have a lot of time with Howard Bryant so I didn't have time to do a bunch of intro stuff, we just got right into the questions, so I wanted to make sure to give a little bit of context. I pray that everyone who's hearing this is staying safe. Definitely support everybody protesting. You're seeing on Living Corporate, we are trying to amplify as much as we can. You're gonna see some links to donate to different protestors and bail funds and things of that nature. You're gonna see that in there. My hope and my desire is if you're an aspiring ally and you listen to Living Corporate regularly that you would check those links and donate. You don't have to donate to Living Corporate, just donate. Just click the links. Just please donate to those links. Shout-out to all my people. Love y'all. 'Til next time. Peace.Zach: Howard, welcome back to the show. How are you doing? Howard: I'm good. How are you?Zach: Man... you know. [chuckles]Howard: [chuckles] Staying sane during all of this?Zach: Trying to, trying to, trying to. Look, you know, we had you on not too long ago, and you've seen a lot, I know, in your life in terms of civil struggle. I think I was a kid when the Rodney King riots happened. In your estimation, is this the largest civil rights protest that you've seen in your lifetime?Howard: I don't know. That's a good question, that's a really good question, considering a few things, right? I was, what... Rodney King, I was 22, and that was nowhere near close to this. I mean, that was--that was disbelief followed by sort of [retrenchment?] followed by rage, because let's not forget that Rodney King happened over a year. Because first it was the beating, then there was the trial, you know, and then there was the uprising, and that happened in '92, but Rodney King actually got beaten down in '91. And so there was that, but this is also--then there's also Ferguson, and so what was happening in Ferguson and Baltimore, all of these things were sort of separate. So I think yes, actually when you really think about it in terms of one sort of linear scale moment, yes, this is the biggest reaction, this is the greatest singular reaction that I've ever seen, and I think that it's been a long time coming. I think that there's so many different avenues that you can take when assessing something like this. Obviously if you're Black you're sort of wondering "What took so long?" I think even if you're just an observer you look at it and say, "Okay, why now? Why Minneapolis? Why was this one the one that linked everybody?" All kinds of great questions there, and then I think the other question that you have here too when you look at it is "What is going to come of it?" And happening during a pandemic. I mean, I swear, man, I believe--I woke up the other day wondering if I had, like, fallen down the stairs and been in intensive care and nobody told me. I mean, I woke up--I woke up and had all these messages from all these people, all my white friends. "If there's anything I can do." I'm like, "What happened?" Then I get another one going, "Oh, I'm so worried about you right now." I'm like, "What happened?" I'm checking my phone, I'm checking the news. I'm like, "What happened? Why is everybody texting me making sure I'm okay?" Then I check my email. "Just really worried, you know, about you and yours, and anything I can do," I'm like... "What happened?" And now you're recognizing that "Oh, they're getting it now. This one got to them." And I'm not even trying to be funny. I literally had no idea why I was getting all these messages, because for us this is normal. This was like, "Okay, this is one of many."Zach: Exactly, right? And I saw you tweeted about this, and I've actually talked to my colleagues about this too, but there seems to be, like, this large sentiment that white folks are just now really understanding and seeing the evils of racism, and, like, what do you make of that? What do you make of this phenomenon?Howard: Yeah, I don't make any--I don't believe that for a minute. I think it's something totally different, and I think that we're in the middle of... I don't know if you're an Alfred Hitchcock fan or not, but Hitchcock mastered the art form of the MacGuffin, and the MacGuffin was essentially the red herring. It was the thing that made you think the plot was, but it wasn't. Like, if you're watching--like, if you watch Psycho it's like, "Okay, it wasn't about the $40,000 he stole after all, was it? It wasn't that. It was this." I don't believe that I'm actually gonna say this, but I'm gonna say this, and I was talking to Roland Martin about this the other day. I really believe that racism in some ways is a bit of misdirection, [that?] racism is not the issue. The issue is policing. The issue I think white people are tired. I think the country's tired. I think after three and a half years of this administration and this buildup, I think that people are recognizing there's no way out, and I think that if you combine that with a pandemic where everybody's been in the house for three months, I think things are starting to--I think it's sort of, like, a perfect storm in a lot of ways, and I think that the visceral nature of that killing... I think Eric Garner was one thing, and I think Eric Garner was every bit the same type of killing that this one was, but I think Eric Garner happened in such a flurry that I don't think that people paid as close attention because Eric Garner and Ferguson were right next to each other, and I think that there was still enough misdirection--and I also think there was something else, and I think that there was a feeling too that there was going to be some form of accountability because you had Barack Obama in the White House and he was talking about accountability and talking about [?], and so there was this feeling that maybe the system was actually going to maybe kind of do something down the line, but here with this administration, I think they've made it very, very clear that this is the norm, and watching that murder and having it be a physical murder--it wasn't that he got shot or anything, you literally put your knee on the neck of somebody while he was held down, you know, apprehended by three other officers. There was no reason for it. It resonated. I think people saw it because their lives have shut down. I think it's easier to ignore this stuff when your life is moving on. You, like, take a little look and you keep going, but everybody's been stuck in the house, so everybody's been paying--I think people paid much more attention to this because they didn't have anything else necessarily, because it feels like the country is falling apart, right? I mean, it already feels like, "All right, we're talking about the economy and everybody's losing their jobs and you have 40 million people out there on unemployment AND you're in the house watching videos all day in-between Zoom chats." All you're doing is you're online. So something about it hit in a way that it didn't hit in other ways, and then on top of that the marshal response is very different, where you have a bunch of white kids out there, this looks like--I mean, so when you say "my lifetime," technically my lifetime? No, because I was born in 1968. So this feels like '68 in terms of when you see a whole bunch of anti-war people and, you know, when you see white people--when you see white people getting the shit beat out of them by police, you know that something's happening.Zach: They getting whooped out here.Howard: Exactly, and they're out front. And I think there's something else too worth paying attention to, and that is this may be a delayed sort of effect of the last 12 years. I think that if the 2008 election was your first election, you were 18 years old, you're 30 years old now, and in 2008 you had a belief that this was gonna be different. Not just black people, but everybody on that side had a belief that that election was finally going to turn a corner and that these corners were going to keep being turned, and they're not, and now you see this frustration. And on top of that, that generation, that generation believed. I mean, we talked about this last time. The thing that I was really worried about, I was worried about it for black people, I'm now somewhat worried about it for white people in a lot of ways, is that they believed in 2008, that this country was free and that all you had to do was break that logjam, and I think that logjam, first you break it with Obama, but then after that you break it with his reelection. So you think, "Okay, maybe we normalized this idea that anybody can be president," then it's been backed up with nothing but retrenchment. You know, 1. you look at how Hillary lost, 2. you look at how Brett Cavanaugh got to the Supreme Court, 3. you look at how Elizabeth Warren was essentially humiliated, even though she was clearly one of the smartest if not the smartest candidate who was running for office. So now you have these white people, and white women in some ways especially, finally realizing what it's like to get punched in the face politically, you know? Where you finally start to realize "Oh, we're getting it too," and if you start to add up this accumulation on top of an administration that has essentially been cracking down, whether you're talking about immigration, you're talking about--it's all of these things together, and then you see this black man getting killed in essentially slow-motion for 8 minutes and people are like, "Enough," and then the dam breaks. And it's an election year as well. So I think there are so many things that are happening. You know, and this is how it usually works, right? And how it usually works is that it's all the things. It's never "the one thing," it's all the things combined that create the breaking point, and the Trump reaction to the breaking point, to essentially build a fortress around the White House, to have prison guards who are unidentified out in the streets policing D.C., to essentially unleash police on everyday citizens, you know, to do that, to have them fire into crowds of white people... this feels like dystopia. It's not like, "Oh, we're nearing chaos." No, we are in chaos right now. We're in it.Zach: I want to pivot a little bit and talk about some of the responses, like, that we're seeing from these major brands, and I'd like to stick to sports [chuckles] for a second. Is there any bigger example of cognitive dissonance than Washington making statements or [?]?Howard: Oh, and the Chicago Blackhawks or the Braves? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, but once again, people talk all the time about weaponizing your politics, right? And usually when they talk about these types of weaponizings they talk about political correctness or they talk about virtue signaling or they use all of these very insulting terms to essentially ridicule people of color or people who are gay or Black people or whoever about their identity choices, identity politics. You hear all of these different insulting terms, right? There's no greater example of political correctness than the National Football League acting like they care about this. All they're trying to do is send a message that they're on the right side of this when their history shows 100% they are not on the right side of this. They're on the opposite side of this. And the Washington Redskins and the Chicago Blackhawks and the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians and all of these teams with their racist logos are gonna say that they care about this, that they actually care? And all of these teams, every team in the National Football League who essentially took Colin Kaepernick and ruined his career, they took his career from him, are now going to say that they're in support of Black people? But if you notice, it's a very delicate dance because they don't want to mention the word "police." Zach: I was just about to say it's interesting to see that machine coming together, right? Like, they'll talk about [?] "Racism does not align with our values," [but] they don't talk about the police brutality. Mainstream media isn't talking about widespread police abuse.Howard: Well, that's what I mean about racism in its own way being a red herring. It's a MacGuffin. The goal here is not to eliminate racism. That's not the goal, right? The goal is for the system that you tell us to trust to do its job and arrest those four cops and prosecute them and have the juries out there recognize that crimes were committed and convicting them and of course putting them in jail, and on top of that we're forming laws that give police this wide latitude to do these things in the first place. But if you focus on racism, you don't have to change anything. You don't have to do anything. So you concentrate--so all we've been seeing here is "Oh, we've gotta--oh, Black Lives Matter, and, you know, we have to be better and be kinder to people, and we need to--you know, racism is the pandemic, it's the second pandemic." I don't care about any of this. What I care about, I care about the actual concrete structures changing, and they're acting like this, and what they're doing is that they're selling this to the public to make it sound like there's nothing they can do. They could go back to session right now and change the damn laws. That's what they can do. And when you think about on the other side, right, when there is a scourge that they feel is affecting society and affecting crime and everything else, all of a sudden there's plenty of concrete steps when it comes to black people. When they find black people as a scourge, all of a sudden you've got all kinds of tangible, concrete resources and solutions. You've got tougher laws. You build more jails. You put more cops on the street. You have more resources. You have longer prison sentences. Suddenly the entire machine actually works with concrete steps. But when you're asking white people to hold police accountable, it's "Let's abolish racism. Let's be nicer to each other. Let's one day open our hearts and be the society we say we want to be." No. No. You guys go to session and you take those cops and you put them in jail. Let's have a little conversation about one other thing, right? Fear. Let's talk about fear for just a minute, right? One of the reasons that you don't walk into an office and you look at your female coworker and you say, "Nice rack," or you say, "Nice ass," or you make some comment on her, right, you don't do that. Not anymore you don't. Why don't you do that? It's not because the minute you walked into that building suddenly your heart opened up and suddenly you were a nicer person and you weren't a frat boy misogynist asshole anymore. It meant that when you walked in that building you knew the fear of what was gonna happen to you if you talked to your coworkers by that. So what we're really talking about is you know damn well you're not a nicer person. You just know not to talk like that 'cause you know you're gonna lose your career.Zach: There's consequences and repercussions to that, absolutely.Howard: Right, there's consequences and repercussions to that. So why doesn't that get applied to policing? That you are going to lose everything if you act like this. If you changed the laws and you changed the cultural attitudes and said, "Listen, if you do what you guys did to George Floyd, your careers are over, we take your pensions, you are prohibited from working in this field for the rest of your lives," it would change. And on top of that, and to you police departments, these civil settlements that we have to pay that are in the billions, they're coming out of your budgets and your pensions. You would see a behavioral change overnight. "And if we catch you on video punching some teenager who's already in handcuffs, you're done," and it's an immediate felony charge, and all of a sudden if you start applying three strikes to the police the same way you apply three strikes to some dude buying a dimebag, all of a sudden you would see change, but instead what you're seeing is "Oh, well, open your hearts and let's be kind," and they're using racism and the utopian society as some sort of goal when actually none of this would have happened if you had arrested those guys and put them in jail the minute it happened.Zach: 100%. You're absolutely right, right? And I think it's actually happening also in the corporate space too, you know, and I want to talk about dissidence, and I know we have a little bit of time left, but I want to get to this. So the last time we spoke about, you know, we talked about the concept of full dissidence, and it's interesting because I think Black professionals across the industry in North America that I've definitely seen, they're seeing these companies treat race as an abstract, and they themselves, similar to how you're saying about, you know, the policing system and how there are things that we can tangibly change, they too are seeing how things can be tangibly changed. I'm curious though, before we get even into work, what are your thoughts about the video that just dropped from the NFL players. Is that an example of the dissidence that you're speaking about?Howard: Partially. It's on its way. It's on its way, and what I like about that is I feel like they're recognizing that you have a responsibility here. And let's face it, the NFL opened up the door here. They all did. Hollywood did, sports did, everybody did, and now the question's gonna be "Are you gonna walk the walk? What are you gonna do?" And now people want to see what you're gonna do. So if you're the NFL, are you gonna put out 33 of these statements, 32 teams and one league all putting out statements, and then blackball a guy? Well, what good is the statement? Are you going to put out all of these statements about how much you're down with Black people and then prohibit them from expressing themselves? Are you going to do this and, at the same time, make everybody celebrate police? And how are you going to celebrate police and military when you have the police knocking down 75-year-old men and you have the National Guard pointing weapons at its own citizens?Zach: And killing folks.Howard: And killing folks. Are you able to do that? You aren't going to be able to do that anymore. So I like what the players are doing. I also feel like the larger unspoken part of all of this is also the idea that your white fans are more important than your black fans. Because let's face it, if you had respect for your black fans, you wouldn't have done that to Colin Kaepernick because most black fans supported Colin Kaepernick. So what you were really doing was you were sending the message to your white fanbase saying, "We got this," right? And I understand it at some level. I understand it at a fear level, the fear level being, "Well, listen, this is our business model, and if people abandon our business model what are we gonna do?" But then, you know, it's fear versus courage. Do you have courage to also say to those people, "Listen, A. it's a free country, this is his protest, B. he's right, we have issues and we need to fix them, and C. in a sort of way, I dare you to leave. You ain't going nowhere. You're football fans. You love this sport, you love this game. Are you really going to tell us that you're no longer gonna watch the National Football League because one guy on a team you don't even follow is taking a knee about an issue that he cares about?" But that's really not the issue. The issue is that what he did inflamed all of them, the people who run the game. He offended their politics, and he forced a reckoning that you're seeing right now with the Saquon Barkley video that those guys did, and interesting respect seeing Pat Mahomes on there because, you know, for lots of reasons. You know, I mean, 1. people have been talking about the biracial element of this, you know, where does this leave the biracial kids? Well, Pat Mahomes told you. "I'm Black. That's where it leaves me." And it also leaves you somewhere else. When the superstars get involved things change, and the superstars have a quarterback, and Pat Mahomes is a superstar quarterback.Zach: Right, arguably the best quarterback in the league right now.Howard: Arguably the best quarterback in football, and if he's gonna be the guy, then all of a sudden the whole game changes. Zach: Right. So let me wrap up on this one. You know, the last time you were here, you called out how a lot of this diversity and inclusion, corporatized stuff, is actually anti-Black, and I think we're seeing, like, a watershed moment right now where these organizations and this industry that has largely been focused on white women, if queer identities white queer identities, is now scrambling to hire consultants and create new programs and create new statements to really address their actual black employees, and I'm curious to know, what do you predict is going to happen, and where do you see this ending now that we're in a situation where corporations and businesses are focused to actually talk about blackness explicitly?Howard: Well, I'm not willing to go there yet, and I'm not willing to go there yet for a few reasons. One, it's too new, because I think everybody right now is just in damage control mode. That's what I think, so that's my first reaction is "I'm gonna wait and see. Let's play this out." What's gonna happen two, three, four months from now? The world has been moving so quickly that this--who knew that a global pandemic was actually going to be second on the news items now to something else? You never know what's coming. And to me, I need to wait and see what they do with it, because right now the first thing that these guys are thinking about is putting out the fire, and once they put out the fire, are they going to go back to their regularly scheduled racism? And are they going to go back to the old way that they do things? Look, the bottom line with everything corporate to me, if you want to talk about diversity and inclusion and if you want to talk about advancement and if you want to talk about all of the different ways that the corporate world can be a hostile environment or it can be an encouraging one, to me it's usually been hostile because I think that people in these industries have always wanted diversity of color without diversity of thought. The real question to me when I think about the corporate world has always been this - "Are you grooming me to replace you?" That's the question. "Are you grooming me to be the face of your company? Are you grooming me to be the head of your corporation? Because if you are not, then what you're really saying is I will always have limitations and that you're always going to be scrambling to mollify whatever crisis we have in the day, that whatever the crisis [?] we're gonna find some way to calm it down and then go back to what we usually do." If you are at a point one day where these corporations look at you and they say, "Hey, it's okay to have two of our top three officers be Black, and one of them is the CEO and one of them's the CFO, and we're good," instead of having your top Black officer always be corporate comm. If that's the case, then maybe you'll see some serious change, but to me the real issue has always been the actual limitations. When you look at the--you know, I talk about big government, and you think about advancement and the rise of the black middle class and the destruction of the black middle class, you're usually talking about government. You're not talking about corporations. You're talking about the post office and you're talking about civil service jobs and you're talking about--those are the jobs that built the middle class. Corporations generally still do not hire black people in great enough numbers where you're not relying on the government, you know? When black wealth starts to decline, usually it comes from the shrinking of government, of government jobs. So to me, when you start to see, if you ever start to see, a movement or a shift in those numbers where you have corporations who are willing to groom African-Americans to be real players in their industries, when you start to see that, then you'll start to see change, and then I'll look at it and say, "Hey, this is different," but until then I'm gonna take a wait and see. And then also there's one other thing to consider about that too. We don't even know what the world is gonna look like, right? I mean, Black people right now are in the middle of this because of what's happening in Minneapolis and around the country, but let's not forget, we are still in the middle of a pandemic, and we are still--we're only in the first wave of that pandemic, because when flu season hits we may be shutdown again. So we still need to take a long look at the larger picture of what's happening, but as of today, the corporations have certainly put themselves in the position where it is appropriate to ask them if they're going to walk the walk.Zach: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening to Living Corporate. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Howard Bryant, ESPN senior writer and contributor and NPR writer and contributor as well. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

On the sixty-eighth installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about why you need to keep an eye on statements made (or not made) by your current employers and any potential employer you are considering. As Tristan says, "It’s necessary for our sanity and well-being that we position ourselves in spaces where we are welcomed, appreciated, and allowed to show up as our true selves so we can thrive." Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: Hey Living Corporate, It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I'm back to bring you another career tip. This week isn’t like all of the other weeks that I’ve come to you. We are in the middle of what many are calling riots but I prefer to call an uprising, rebellion, or revolt due to police brutality that has largely gone ignored and unpunished due to systemic racism and white supremacy. This has proven to be a call to action for many companies to step up and assert their stance on the matter. Some, like Ben and Jerry’s, have provided statements that show direct unwavering support. Others not so much. I want to talk about why you need to keep an eye on statements made (or not made) by your current employers and any potential employer you are considering.Over the last couple of years, a cornerstone and conversation starter in both the job search and corporate environments has been company culture. With large corporations trying to shift their narratives and the public’s opinion of them, this has largely been a tiring and frustrating dance for job seekers who are trying to understand how they may fit within a certain company. Our current social and political climate has required many companies to begin speaking out about their stance on police brutality, racism, systemic oppression, and white privilege. Many are rising to the occasion but many more companies and organizations are falling short. I believe the statement these companies and organizations are giving is a very good indicator of their current culture. Companies and organizations who are truly dedicated to the work of reforming an unjust system will have already put processes in place to build teams that can respond to this with the fervent passion and action that the moment calls for. The companies and organizations who simply created a diversity and inclusion statement because they felt pressured or see this work as trendy have provided tone-deaf statements that lack substance, action, and passion.Need an example of a great statement? Look to Ben & Jerry’s. For me, they set the standard of how a company responds when they truly values Black lives and the contributions of Black people within their company because they leave no room for doubt and ambiguity. They understand that the perceived risk of losing customers, members, partnerships, etc. does not outweigh the countless lives lost at the hands of an unjust system. I want to break down the key components:First and foremost, they called a spade a spade instead of skirting around the issue. They directly stated the words Black Lives Matter, police brutality, racism, and white supremacy. Personally, I’m side eyeing any statement that misses those 4 key words and phrases. If a company or organization can’t directly name their support, call out the oppressive system, and clearly state the things that led up to this moment they are likely to only be providing lip service with their Diversity and Inclusion or Social Justice initiatives.Second, they named many of our fall brothers and sisters including George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, Oscar Grant, Eric Garner, Travyon Martin, and Michael Brown. They even took it all the way back to Emmet Till and provided some classy shade by including Martin Luther King Jr. as another victim of inhumane police brutality. Companies who are giving those generic statements know that saying these names directly can cause quite a stir so they avoid it similarly to how they avoid the words I previously talked about.Third, they say Black people instead of African American and they were sure to capitalize the B. You always, and I mean always, capitalize the B in Black when you are speaking about Black people. Also, I’m really apprehensive about people or organizations who state they are dedicated to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion work but are hesitant to say Black when referencing us.The Fourth and final point, they didn’t rely solely on their words but they tied them to action. They called for political, systemic, and structural changes. Words are cool but action is better. If the company or organization isn’t actively changing policies and implementing new ones, breaking partnerships with law enforcement, or donating to organizations doing the work I question how invested they are in the fight for true justice.Many companies or organizations have not made a statement or made a generic statement that only expresses vague solidarity with the Black community and eludes the specific of what is wrong, what needs to change, or in what ways they will do anything about it. If you are currently at one of those companies and feel you are in a position to speak up, do so in whatever way you feel is appropriate. If you don’t feel you can speak up, I’d encourage you to start reflecting on if this is a place you’d want to be and, honestly, if they even deserve to have you as part of their team. If you are ready to jump ship, there are plenty of Black resume writers and career coaches that are here to support you in this endeavor.While this time is truly a trying for each of us, if anything it has given us much clearer indicators to evaluate if companies and organizations are truly as dedicated to the work as they say they are or if they are only dedicated when they feel the pressure or because they believe it’s trendy. It’s necessary for our sanity and well-being that we position ourselves in space where are welcomed, appreciated, and allowed to show up as our true selves so we can thrive.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with Mary-Frances Winters, the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., about black equity and power. Mary-Frances shares some of the top things she believes that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts and explains her perspective on why chief inclusion/people/culture officers are typically white folks. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about The Winters Group!Connect with Mary-Frances on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2Bs8pZBhttps://bit.ly/2ZXoMYlhttps://bit.ly/3csD9qbLearn more about The Winters Group on their website. http://bit.ly/33pqotqCheck out the Inclusion Solution blog.https://bit.ly/2yX2quXYou can connect with The Winters Group on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2WrDjtghttp://bit.ly/3d69LYhhttps://bit.ly/2XUy6t7Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, it's Tuesday. The day of this recording is May 4th, so May the 4th be with you. We have incredible guests every single time we come on, and today is no different, because what we're trying to do is what we always do, right? Which is center and amplify marginalized voices in the workplace. Now, I would like to think Living Corporate is a little bit unique in that we're having these conversations, but not only are we having these conversations that are centering marginalized voices, but we're having these conversations with marginalized identity groups, right? So a lot of times when you think about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, it's folks who don't look like me using fairly esoteric, like, heady language to describe things that they really don't experience, right? Like, not to put too fine a point on it. Just look... I'm just gonna be honest, right? Just gonna be a straight shooter, okay? And I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have incredible guests that have not only the lived experience but have the practical knowledge and expertise to talk about real subjects, and so that's why our tagline for Living Corporate is real talk for a corporate world. Now, look, some of y'all have been listening to us and been rocking with us for a while, but every episode is somebody's first episode, so I just want to make sure I kind of level set a little bit. So with all that being said, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Mary-Frances Winters. Mary-Frances Winters is the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a global organization development and diversity and inclusion consulting firm with over 35 years--count 'em, y'all, 35... more than I've been alive--more than 35 years of experience. She truly believes that diversity and inclusion work is her “passion and calling.” She's been dubbed a thought leader in the field for the past three decades and has impacted over hundreds of organizations and thousands of individuals with her thought-provoking messages, and her approach to diversity and inclusion. Ms. Winters is a master strategist with experience in strategic planning, change management, diversity, organization development, training and facilitation, systems thinking--yo, shout-out to systems thinking--and qualitative and quantitative research methods, and she has extensive experience in working with senior leadership teams to drive organizational change. My goodness, gracious. With all that being said, Mary-Frances, welcome to the show.Mary-Frances: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You're definitely dating me, but that's all right. I'll take it. [laughing]Zach: I apologize. I wasn't trying to date you. I was trying to speak to the depth and breadth of the work that you've been doing, 'cause I think a lot of times it's easy, you know--like, pausing on, just, like, this conversation, but kind of, like, thinking about generational tensions, right? So I think there's, like, a lot of frustrations sometimes with folks who--like, millennials, you know, folks, like, in their early 30s or even, like, mid-20s to late-20s crowd who just think that, like, all of these frustrations that we're seeing now are new, right, but there have been folks who have built foundations before us that allow us to actually move forward, so it's just incredible that you've been in this space and doing this for a significant amount of time. I don't believe that should be taken lightly at all.Mary-Frances: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I accept it with honor and respect, so thank you so much.Zach: Thank you so much. So how are you doing during this time? Like I said, we're recording this on May 4th. How are you and your loved ones?Mary-Frances: We're well, we're well. We're doing well. You know, it is unprecedented times. It's very, very difficult times for the world, but, you know, we're doing well, and thank you for asking.Zach: So let's get right into it. Diversity, equity and inclusion work is about marginalized identities, yet the loudest voices in this space tend to be those of the majority, right? So, like, when you think about these big, big organizations and you look at, like, the chief inclusion officer or the chief people officer or the chief culture officer, they're typically white folks. Why do you think that is?Mary-Frances: Well, I don't think that the dominant group sees diversity and inclusion as being about marginalized folks. They see it as being about everybody. "We have to include everybody," and so some of what my frustration has been, as you mentioned, 35 years, and so when we used to talk about it, you know, in the days of affirmative action, they were protected groups, right? So the initiatives were targeted towards those protected groups. When we started to talk about it as being diversity, then it broadened and everybody got included in diversity, and the group that gets least talked about now are black folks, because they don't want to talk about black people. So I don't think that the dominant group that controls the narrative, I don't think that they see it about being about marginalized identities only, right? And so the focus may or may not be there, you know, depending, and so we did a session for a client not too long ago to talk about the relevancy of white men in the organization. So, you know, you've got to be inclusive of white men. [both laughing] Yeah, so that's why I think--you asked me why I think that is? That's why I think that is, yeah. Because in the corporate world, we don't even use the word "marginalized identities." So it's not a new term in sociology, but let me tell you, 35 years in this business, it's a new term in the corporate world. It's starting to be used, and I think it is because of the influence of the millennials. We've been doing some work in some organizations that, you know, normally--some of these older, traditional organizations have been around 150 years and still got baby boomers at the helm, right? Some of these other organizations have been around 15, 20 years, they've got a lot of millennials at the helm. Those organizations are using this language, the social justice language. The traditional organizations? Not so much.Zach: [laughs] So one, thank you. I'm really curious--that really is a good segue into the next question I have for you about just you showing up doing this work as a black woman, and not to, like--again, not to age you, we're talking about the fact that--[Mary-Frances laughs] It's not like you're a black woman who just graduated from college and, you know, you're in this space, or you just finished B school, like, you're someone who has seen this space grow and evolve and change and shift and permutate, you know, various times over over the past three and a half decades, and so I'm curious, like, what does it look like for you to operate in this space, and then specifically going into the example that you just provided, how do you respond to narratives like that? That, you know, white men need to feel just as included as black men or other marginalized groups?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So as a black woman in this work, a cisgender heterosexual black woman, baby boomer, there are different ways it impacts me. So one way that it impacts me is "Oh, yeah, let's get Mary-Frances because she can bring the voice of black folks." Um, no. Mary-Frances brings her voice, not all black folks, right? That's one way. This other way is, "Gee, we really can't hire The Winters Group to do this--" This is a black person talking now. "Because you're black and I'm black, and, you know, the optics of it, it looks like we might be giving you, you know, preferential treatment." The third way is when I stand in front of a group, to the question about, you know, white men, I do--if my question is gonna get across, I do in some ways have to disarm white men, because they're gonna--they see me coming in with my sister locks and, you know, "This black woman is gonna come in and she's gonna tell us, you know, how racist we are. She's gonna make us feel bad," and so what I've learned over the years is that you've gotta get them to like you first. No matter what they've gotta like you, right? And they have to think that the message resonates. So I learned the language. I learned the language of the organization. I connect my message to whatever their business plan is, whatever their business strategy is. You know, I connect it to that, because, you know, you're already coming in being black, being a woman. So those are two, you know, marginalized groups, historically marginalized groups. And so yeah, so there are different ways. And, you know, we talk about code switching, right? So we have to code switch a lot of times in order to get the work done, particularly in corporate spaces. Now, I don't know if you've noticed--well, I'm sure you've noticed because you know my colleague, Brittany J. Harris, who is the vice president of The Winters Group, and we're doing a series right now in our inclusion solution blog on decolonizing DEI work, and, you know, part of that--and I wrote a couple of weeks ago about decolonizing particularly the corporate world with, you know, corporate speak. So you come in and they have to have a business case, and the business case has to be "How does this help my business, you know, perform better?" That's, like, the classic corporate business case, and that's kind of centering this capitalist narrative, right? We're about the profits, and you can [show?] me by hiring black folks and hiring women, whoever else you want me to hire. If you can show me that that can help me to sell more whatever I'm trying to sell, then it's okay. So I think that, you know, to some extent--you know, I was just talking to a very large client just before this--I will not name that client. Very old client, 150, 160 years old, you know, very old. [laughing] You know, middle of the country, and they're just trying to get this stuff off the ground and you come in talking about marginalized groups and whatnot to a bunch of these white men, they're just not gonna--it's just not gonna happen. So it's this delicate balance, Zach, of on one hand, you know, you have to be able to engage the groups that they listen, and on the other hand you're trying to dismantle, you know, this dominant sort of narrative that doesn't necessarily work, and it hasn't worked. 35 years, 36 years, all of the same issues that I was teaching and talking about 36 years ago are the same. As a matter of fact, my book Black Fatigue will be coming out in February. Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit comes out in February, and I have a chapter in that book, Chapter 3, called Then is Now, and so I go back and I look at data from whatever point you want to take. You can take it from 1965, 1975, it doesn't really matter what you want to take it. When you look at our data and our statistics, we have not made progress. We're stuck, and we're at this standstill. Brown vs. the Board of Education was 1954, which was desegregate schools. Our schools are more segregated today than then. You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You know, all of this legislation, housing. In 1975, 43% of black people owned their own homes. In 2019, 43% of black people own their own homes. The net worth--and, you know, net worth is, like, what you're worth, right? Net worth. A single black woman's net worth is $500, versus the net worth of a white woman, single white woman, which is [$5000?], still low. The net worth of white people, at 150 something thousand dollars, is 10 times that of a black person, and it follows even if you look at college-educated. So somebody who has a PhD who is a black woman college professor with a PhD makes 20% less than a white man who has a PhD and 7 to 8% less than a woman who has a PhD, and so all of these inequities--and I'm using those just as an example--is about Then is Now, that we haven't really turned the corner. So we're fatigued. [?] And it's particularly tiring for me because, like you said, I've been doing it for over 35 years. [both laughing] I'm tired.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we've had conversations about that on Living Corporate, and we cite the study Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain that really goes into dispelling the myth that higher education will, you know, somehow close the wealth gap, and it hasn't and it doesn't. So let's talk about this. There's a variety of folks that we've had on Living Corporate who have said, you know, diversity and inclusion, corporate diversity and inclusion, is inherently [anti]-black, not just in its external doings but at the internal politics. Do you have any thoughts on the voracity of that position?Mary-Frances: Well, society is inherently anti-black, so by extension the corporate world is inherently anti-black. We live in a society that has historically and continues to be anti-black. I don't know--yeah, so I agree. [both laugh] I mean, right? So yeah, you know, D&I is inherently anti-black. It is because that's the society--you know, when I wrote this book Black Fatigue and I was telling people about this, "Oh, please write about black and brown fatigue and, you know, all deference to indigenous people and native people and Latinos and everybody, right?" But the black experience in the United States has been different than any of those other experiences, and because of that the stereotypes and the marginalization plays out differently, and so I really felt a need--even though [?]--I show statistics for Latinos and Asians, you know, as well in the book, but I really wanted to focus on how this is playing out for black folks, because let me tell you. I say--you know, [?]--race is diversity's four-letter word, and particularly when you talk about black folks, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about the black and whiteness of it. "Let's talk about Asians. Let's talk about Latinos," right? So this anti-black--so that's one way anti-black plays out. You know, we have to include the other groups that we have [?]. I had a call with a client just on Friday, and they talked about how the psychologist or sociologist, whoever we were quoting--I forgot who it was--was black, and so we were like, "Uh, yeah," and they said, "Well, you know, perhaps we need to get some other experts included in this data set." What's that about? "Are there some Asian people who have spoke on this too?" [laughs] So yeah, I mean, we live in an anti-black world, and by extension our corporations are anti-black. I mean, look at things like the recent legislation around the CROWN Act. Why does anybody freaking care how I wear my hair? Why do we have to have legislation for people to be able to wear their hair--for black people to be able to wear their hair the way they want to wear their hair. You know, the young man wrestler, right, and they made him--Zach: Yes, made him cut his hair. His dreads.Mary-Frances: His dreads, right. Exactly. Right there. You know? I mean, why do you care? You don't have to like--what I say to folks is, "I don't care if you like it. You don't have to like my hair. I'm not asking you to like my hair." [laughing] But, I mean, are we still in a slavery, there's no freedom, that we can't even wear our hair the way we want to wear our hair? You know what, I heard about hair 36 years ago when I was in the corporate world and I had a very short afro, and one day a colleague--wasn't even my boss, a colleague--comes in my office and says, "Will your hair grow?" And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Well, you oughta let it," and he walked out of my office.Zach: Wow.Mary-Frances: That's why I left corporate. One of the reasons anyway. But anyway, so yes, is it an anti-black world? Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. Unfortunately, you know, it is. And when you say that--and the problem is when you say that to white people they think that you're calling them a racist, and I'm not. I'm not. What I'm saying is the very foundation and structure upon which our various societies and the way we think and the policies and all those things are based on anti-black sentiments, anti-black beliefs if you will. Zach: You know, I'm really curious about, like--because you're right, we had Brittany Harris on the show some time ago, and we were talking about decolonization and dismantling and deconstructing systems, right? So it was more so about, like, kind of, like, trying to make some shifts and some headway in this work, because like you said, there's a lot of conversations that have just been happening, they've been recycling for years, and I'm curious to know, what are you seeing some other, like, DEI groups or, like, kind of names, things that they're saying that you're like, "Man, we've been doing that." Like, "We've been working on that," or "That's not new. Like, y'all think it's new, but it's not new." Like, does anything like that stick out to you?Mary-Frances: Yeah, I think that, you know, the whole idea of, you know, oppression, marginalization, privilege, all of those kinds of things I think have been out there for--you know, for a long time. You know, we can all remember--those of us in this work--Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege. Judith Katz, my colleague, did something on heterosexual privilege back in the '90s, and the Peggy McIntosh book was back in the '70s. You know, Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, which shows, you know, bias. We now call it unconscious bias, but Jane Elliott, you know, put that out in, I don't know, the '70s, '60s or '70s. I was using that video--now that you've already dated me I'll just keep going with it--but I was using that video [laughing]--Zach: I'm so sorry. [laughing]Mary-Frances: No, no, no. You're fine, I'm just teasing you. [laughing] You know, I was using that video in the '80s, right? And now I hear people like, "Oh, do you know about Jane Elliott's video Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes?" And that's the other thing, [?] why I wrote Black Fatigue is because--and I'm not saying this is about millennials. This is not about generations at all thinking this stuff is new. This is about folks who are, like, in my age group to who this is all, like, a revelation, right? "We didn't know." So here, case in point. We know that COVID-19 is disproportionately impacting particularly black people, and when it came out, this proportionality, it was like, "Oh, wow, we have health disparities?" This is not new. I mean, these health disparities have been--they have been well-researched, well-written about, and they continue. They have not improved. Even middle-class black women are twice as likely to die in childbirth. You know, these are not new, and so that's what's part of, you know, the frustrating thing. You know, I really respect some of the newer folks who are coming into this space, and I think that they're doing remarkable work, and I'm hoping that perhaps they can put a different spin--I know Brittany, as a millennial, has brought definitely a different spin to our work. When Brittany came on board, which was, like, four years ago now I guess, we had started to talk about the intersection of social justice and corporate speak, because, you know, the language was all different, right? Everything was different. So we talk about mapping the intersection. What is the intersection of social justice and corporations? So corporations worried about the bottom line. Why should they be worried about, you know, social justice as well, and how do we get that languge? So I think at The Winters Group we're a little bit further ahead of mapping that intersection of saying that it's not one or the other. It really is a both and, because if you help to alleviate the social ills of this world or even of this country or even of the place that you operate your business, your business is going to be better.Zach: No, I'm right there with you, and I really think that segues well into this next question, which is just, you know, what trends do you see in this work from a thought leadership perspective, and if you were to kind of look across the landscape of this work and when you think about workplace equity as a whole, you know, where are the biggest places you think we have to grow?Mary-Frances: So where I see that we have places to grow in this work is fixing organizational cultures so that they truly are inclusive and we're not just using the word, that we're not just saying that we're inclusive, because the surveys that we do inside corporations would suggest that the cultures are not inclusive, particularly--PARTICULARLY--for black folks. Particularly. Now, when we do surveys with Latinos and Asians, culturally they may not be having a good experience, but they're not gonna tell us that because culturally they don't talk ill of--and I'm stereotyping, I know I'm stereotyping big time right now, but for the most part Latinos and Asians don't speak ill of their employers. That's a cultural thing, right? And so they're gonna say, you know, everything is good. We, you know, coming from a history of descension, a history of sort of laying it out there. You know, "No justice, no peace." Zach: Give us us free, yes.Mary-Frances: Yeah, right. We're willing to say, "No, this is not a good experience," if we answer the survey. We did a big survey for a corporation recently, and not many black people answered the survey. So then I did a focus group with them and they said, "Oh, no, we're not answering that survey. They can figure out who we are because there's only about 100 of us in the whole company." So the point is that organizational cultures, the traditional organizational cultures, are designed for dominant groups. They always have been. In the '70s when I was in the corporate world, they decided to bring in a whole bunch of black people, a whole bunch of black professionals, because they didn't have enough, and they just said, "Let's bring 'em all in here." Within a year, every single one of them were gone except one. There was probably about 30 people. Every single one of them left because the culture was not friendly, was not conducive. There were micro-aggressions all day long. [?] I told you about the micro-aggression about my hair. Here's another one. So the company sent me to some banquet or something, and I was sitting there--and I got to represent the company, so I was sitting at the head table, and we had a little fruit cup, you know, as our appetizer or something, and so the person sitting next to me said, "Oh, look at that, you have more watermelon in your fruit cup than anybody at the table." Now, why would you even say that? What would even make you part your lips to speak like that? Yeah. So you know what I did? I said, "Oh, you like watermelon? Would you like mine? I'll trade with you." [both laughing] So my point is that hasn't changed in 30 however many ever years that is. That hasn't changed. And so, you know, where we still need to grow is to really get at the culture, and the only way we're gonna get at the culture is to hold people accountable, and because the experience that people have in their organizations are 1:1 with their direct manager, right, and so if the direct manager is not talking the talk, walking the walk, it's not happening for that person. We often times focus on the top leadership, top of the house--"Let's start at the top of the house." I say that we need to focus on first-line leadership, those individuals who are most likely to have the greatest span of control. First-line leaders have more reports than the CEO. The CEO probably has six or seven direct reports, right? All the senior vice presidents, and then it goes down from there. So the biggest span of control and the biggest opportunity for change is at that first level, and we often times don't work with that first level of leadership because they don't have the budget for it or, you know, all of these other excuses. So I really think--and I've been saying this for years, so I don't know if this is a trend or not, but I've been saying this for years, that we have to get to that level. The other places that we still need to grow is pay inequity. You know, pay inequity for women and, you know, women of color in that equation too. That's an easy fix. You look at your data and you see who--if you have a disparity with women not being paid the same amount, then you fix it. You see, this is why if organizations wanted to do it, they could. Any aspect of diversity. If they wanted to do it, they would absolutely do it. So those are areas, I mean, in just terms of very tactical places, in terms of--cultures are really, really hard to change. So I had a call with a client this morning, and they had a question on the survey--they wanted me to review their survey. We have our own survey, but they got somebody else to do their survey, but they wanted me to review the questions. Here's one of the questions. "I fit in well at this organization."Zach: Hm, that's a good question.Mary-Frances: Huh? No, that's a bad question.Zach: Talk to me. Educate me why it's a bad question.Mary-Frances: Okay. Because it's about fitting in. Fitting in is about assimilation. Fitting in is about "I fit in," meaning that--Zach: I'm adjusting myself.Mary-Frances: I'm adjusting myself. I fit in, right? I mean, you still may get at it, but the whole idea of--even putting the language out there. So that's, you know, colonizing language, "fit," you know? Because what do we say when we hire somebody? We say, "Oh, yeah, they'd be a really good fit," and what "a really good fit" means is what? "They're like us."Zach: It's interesting, because the reason I was saying it's a good question is because I know a lot of--I know for me I would be like, "No."Mary-Frances: Right, exactly, and that's what they're hoping to get, but you see how the message could be from the other side, that you need to fit in.Zach: It absolves the organization of responsibility and onus in creating an inclusive work environment for that person.Mary-Frances: Exactly. So I said, "Why don't you have the question "I feel included at this organization?"" Right? I mean, you're gonna get the same answer, right, but you're now using language that is language that's about inclusion rather than fitting in, because fitting in is basically saying, you know, "Yeah, we need you to fit in. We need you to be like us." Zach: Okay, okay. Let's talk about black male presenting identities in this space, right? I could be speaking selfishly, but it seems as if they're still not highlighted with the same level of attention or nuance of some other people groups. Am I being fair? And, you know, if you agree with that, then could you kind of talk to me about why you think that may be?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So, you know, this is so interesting, because the chapter in Black Fatigue, it's called I Can't Breathe: Black Men's Fatigue, and I also have a chapter in the book called Say My Name: Black Women's Fatigue. So for the black women's chapter it's almost, like, twice as long as the black man's chapter, right? And I'm like, "Wait a minute." I said, "Is it because I'm a black woman and, you know, I relate to the experiences more?" So yes, and I'll tell you--this is the absolute truth. I am not kidding. I have been wrestling with this all weekend because I want to modify the chapter on black men to bring more of that voice. So with black women I could talk about, you know, #BlackGirlMagic, right? You know, what's the analogous movement for black men?Zach: There's nothing that big. I would say, you know, you have Black Boy Joy, but it's not as big, and there's some tension in that because a lot of black men are like, "Well, I'm not a boy. Don't call me a child. I'm a man." You know? So I'm not sure. That's a good question.Mary-Frances: So I write in the book about two experiences, two stories I tell. One story is about somebody who actually now--he has a degree in human resources, but he prefers to work with his hands, and he comes over and he tunes up our air conditioning in the spring and changes the filters and all that kind of stuff. So he was over the other day, and he worked for a large heating and air conditioning organization and was doing really well. They had him in their commercials on TV and everything and, you know, he said he just couldn't take it anymore. We would talk about entrepreneurship while he was still working there, 'cause he knew I was an entrepreneur and everything. So he finally left, and he's been on his own for 18 months, and he works 14, 16 hours a day. Nicest guy in the world. Got a young family, you know? Just really very customer service-oriented. He said, "Yeah, you know, when I go knocking on the doors, I've got to know how I'm coming," he said, "Because when they see that I'm black, you know, they get a little afraid." Ryan is all of 5'6" and, you know, maybe 150 pounds. He's a slightly built man. Zach: Slight guy, yeah.Mary-Frances: So he said, you know, "Why is this? Why do I have to exist like this, where, you know, I'm just trying to live and I'm just trying to, you know, run a business?" And he ran into--while he was in the corporate world, they told him one time that he couldn't get promoted because he was so good at his job that they needed him to stay in that job. That's why he couldn't be promoted, 'cause he was so good. [both laugh] Another time he was told that--he was promoting a particular service that they had, the air conditioning or whatever, and they said, "You're selling too much of this service." That's why he couldn't be promoted. So that's one. Another black guy, who had been with this organization for over 30 years, very well respected externally because he was in manufacturing and he has this particular knack for--he was called the turn-around man. He has a particular knack for going into a manufacturing operation and being able to, you know, whip it into shape, you know? The key performance indicators, the KPIs and all those kinds of things. I mean, he's a guru at that, right? [Lead?] manufacturing and all of that kind of stuff. And they would always send him to the place that was performing the worst, and he would go. So then they decided they were gonna put him in D&I, and this was after 30 years [?], so he's out of his element in D&I. He's gonna do his KPIs, he's gonna do his, you know, manufacturing operations. I think he turned just a few people off, right? So he ended up retiring early. No retirement party after all this. He's doing so well on the outside because he's got articles, he's got--he's well-known in this space, but he was kind of forced out of the organization because somebody didn't like, you know, what he said. So I think, you know, black men, one of the [?] chapters in my book, I have Tall, Dark, and Handsome, right? So when a white man is tall, he's paid more. When a black man is tall, he's actually paid less. The darker-skinned the black male man is, the less that he gets paid, right? Lighter-skinned black men get paid more than dark-skinned black men. So you take a black man who is tall and dark-skinned, you know, that feeds a whole lot of stereotypes, right? You know, and the handsome, you know, like I said in my book, black women [think they're handsome?, laughing] but the majority group probably doesn't. Not so much, right? But you're penalized. You know, black men are penalized, you know, for being tall. Black men are penalized for being darker-skinned. So my son, who is--he went to Harvard, Duke and Princeton, he studied under Cornell West. He is now a tenured associate professor of religion at Duke University. So when he was a kid he was always big. Joe's about, like, 6'5", so he was always big, and they always told him, you know, "You're gonna hurt the other kids. You gotta, you know--" So he's this gentle giant now because he was told, you know, "Don't be too aggressive." Up until the fourth grade there was something wrong with Joe all the time. We had to see a psychologist. You know, he just wasn't adjusting right, and he just da-da-da-da. All of these things. You know, he was in a white school district and usually the only black kid, one of two in his class. So in the fourth grade he had a teacher, he was a white male teacher, who said, "You know what? I think the only thing wrong with Joe is that he's brilliant." He said, "That's the only thing I think is wrong with him." And as soon as Joe started to see himself as brilliant and everybody else started to see himself as brilliant, guess what? Joe become brilliant, and voila, Harvard, Duke, Princeton grad, but if somebody hadn't told him that he was--[?], right? And so Joe writes about hip-hop and religion. He writes about the African-American experience. His book is--you might want to interview my son. His book is called "Hope: Draped in Black," and--Zach: I'd love to interview him, yeah. Let's talk about it offline for sure.Mary-Frances: Yeah, but what he talks about is how you hold hope in the wake of, you know, all of the oppression and whatnot. But, you know, we talked this weekend about black men and about, you know, the hip-hop culture and the gangster and, you know, the rape culture, and we talked about all of that and how that plays out and, you know, why that is, and yeah, it's--black men are very complex, very complex, and they have been, you know, obviously treated the worst. So it's tied up in self-concept. It's tied up in a whole lot of--and what one study found is that black men who have a good self-concept and are also able to figure out how to navigate, you know, the system, they do well in a corporation, but you've got to come first with a good self-concept, and I think, as quiet as its kept, all that bravado sometimes with black men, you know, "Show me some respect" and all that kind of stuff, you know, and "I'm all of that," I think underneath is really a lot of trauma.Zach: Oh, I agree with that. I think you're 100%, I mean, just spot on, and I also think, you know, when you think about black men in this space--it's interesting because black men and white women have something in common, where black men are black, yet they benefit to a much lesser degree, but they still benefit to a degree, from patriarchy, and white women are women of course, but then they benefit from white supremacy. So there's some dynamics there that are nuanced, and yet in a way that black women don't. So black women are women and they're black, right? So it's like, okay, there's no pool that you can pull from or there's nothing that you can really pull from a position of privilege. Of course you have able-bodied privilege, and if you're cisgender and all those things, but I'm talking about, like, just at a high level. So then--but I was gonna say that, you know, it's hard to talk about that because black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's like, "But it shouldn't be hard to at least try to engage in the subject a bit more intentionally," because, I mean, it hasn't stopped white women from being the center of attention for diversity and inclusion efforts for decades.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. Yeah, no. I think you're right, and so in the book Black Fatigue I question whether, you know--so to a certain extent yes, I guess I would agree that black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's more intra-culture than it is inter-culture.Zach: Right, 'cause black men ain't out here about to just be out here disrespecting white women at work.Mary-Frances: Right. Yes, there you go. Yeah, not unless [?]--nobody better know about it anyway, right? [laughs]Zach: Well, shoot. [laughs] Well, and that's the thing that blows my mind. Like, I had a conversation. I'll never forget. This was some years ago. I had a conversation with somebody who tried to, like, insinuate that the reason why I spoke so much at work was because, you know, I was the only man, and perhaps because as a man I'm used to dominating conversations. And I said, "Look, I might be the only man in this space, but I'm also the only black person in this space, and certainly the only black man," and I said, "So if you think that the reason why I'm quote-unquote dominating this conversation is because I'm a man and y'all are a bunch of white women, that's false." I said, "I would actually be more akin to being quiet," as it took me time to find my voice as a black man in white spaces. I said, "I would challenge you to ask why you would use the language that I'm dominating anything by simply raising my voice in a meeting," right? But there's, like, this--I agree with you. I think that there's a, like, lack of nuance when we talk about even how patriarchy is mobilized for black men. I think black men are benefiting from patriarchy with other black people. They don't benefit from patriarchy, like, from--like, if it's me or Karen, Karen is gonna win out.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. And for reasons like I was saying earlier. These studies show, you know, a tall--you know, you've got your stature if you will, that's a negative. You've got the color that's a negative, right? And so yeah, in white spaces, I think that it is an intersectionality in white spaces. You're black and you're a man. It's a marginalized identity.Zach: So, you know, your colleague Brittany Harris, VP of learning and innovation at The Winters Group, who we've had on in the past, has said that power is the silent P in this work. I'd love to hear more from you on the concept of power and how it fits into this engagement of workplace equity.Mary-Frances: Yeah. I mean, it is very much at the center, and it's complex, and when folks have power, why would they want to give it up? So I am not a proponent of power and privilege discussions with novices in this work. So folks who have not--I'm talking about people who are trying to teach, people who are trying to teach who have not had years of kind of understanding how all this plays out, I'm not in favor of going in and telling them that they have power and privilege. Yeah, I have it and I want to keep it. [laughs] Right? I mean, why would someone want to give that up? [?] Black people standing in front of a bunch of white men talking about, "You have power and privilege." Yeah. And so [they're?] like, "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" [laughs] I mean, they don't say that, but. And the other thing is how do they relinquish that power? I mean, that's really difficult to do. And the other problem that I have with that--so yeah, there's this inequitable power dynamic, but the other problem that I have with that is that we are accepting that we don't have power. We're rendering ourselves powerless, right? And so in the corporate world what is the key term? Empower. We want to empower our people. E-M, right? Empower, right? That is somebody giving you their power. So this is part of the corporate speak, you know, that I don't like, right? It's part of the dominant culture of corporate speak. I should have written about that one in my book. I might still. Anyway, I want to turn that around, that E-M to M-E. Me power. I have power. And so we have agency, but we don't take it. We don't use it because we have internalized that we don't have the power, we don't have power, and we cannot continue to--this is one of the trends I'd like to see, not to continue to talk to folks about power and just use our power, not to magnify the inequities. So everybody knows that if you're a white man in a corporation and whatnot and you're the manager or the leader or the director or the whatever, everybody knows you got power, right? [laughs] You know? You gotta tell me you have power? Why you gotta tell me that? Right? And so I think that there are other ways to claim power. I think that part of that is just the confidence that we come with, the self-concept that we come with. I think that we have to be ready to leave spaces, because there are consequences for us exercising power, and we have to have some safety nets, more safety nets than we have. So I left, you know, some 30 something years ago. I just stepped out on faith, I mean, 'cause I have a strong faith, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I just knew I couldn't stay there. We do know that black women, they're 40% more likely to start their own businesses than any other group, right? Because we recognize that it's traumatizing, and so this whole idea of--so who came up with the idea of power and power and privilege? White folks. To tell us that there's a power inequity... Surprise, surprise. And you know what? We're not gonna change that by telling white people that they have power. That is not gonna change that. The only thing that's gonna change it is for us to claim our power and to recognize that we have it. Zach: I love it. No, I'm right there with you.Mary-Frances: Right? [laughing] Stop telling white folks what they already know, that they got power. They already know that.Zach: No, that's true. Like, them not, like, screaming it from the rooftops doesn't mean that they don't know that.Mary-Frances: Well, exactly. Why would I scream it from the rooftops? Again, the dominant group, it's not something that they probably even--even when we call their attention to it, there are many who will want to say, "Uh-huh. And let me figure out how I'm gonna maintain it." There might be others who are curious. "Hm, there is this dynamic. Maybe I should, you know, do something to work on that," but the forces are so strong and entrenched, right, over 400 years of entrenchment, that it's not gonna change. You know, two or three or the small groups that you might get who are all for shifting that power dynamic, they're not strong enough to overcome that larger group who wants to maintain the status quo. So we just have to take it. We have to grab the power. We have to first of all understand we have it already. It's not grabbing anything. We already have it. We just have to use it and accept that there will be consequences sometimes for using that power, and if we don't have the strong safety nets in our community to, you know, accept and to protect those folks who, you know, get fired, you know, are out there, you know, being called out on social media because they're telling the truth or, you know, whatever it might be. We as a people don't support and protect our own as much as we should.Zach: Man, that's, like, a whole separate [?], and what we need to do is make sure we bring you back on when your book is closer to being published and talk about that, because I do think that, you know, how we--so, you know, we had Robin DiAngelo on some time ago, and she talked about white solidarity and the concept of essentially the formal or informal closing of ranks that white folks do to protect one another, often times at the detriment or harm of black and brown folks, and yet I don't--you know, because of colonization and because of just internalized oppression, you know, we don't have that I don't think in the same--Mary-Frances: We don't, yeah.Zach: And that's created so many challenges for us. I mean, since antebellum to today, right? Like, we've had so many issues because we don't necessarily practice to the same degree, protection of one another. So let's do this. You know, as you look across these leadership groups, especially during this pandemic, what are some of the top things you believe that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts?Mary-Frances: They have not educated themselves, so they are not--they think that they know, they think that their good intentions are good enough. So I've heard leaders say, "I don't care if it's the right thing to do for business," you know, the business case that we talked about earlier, "I just think it's the right thing to do, so now go forth and do it." However, because they don't have an understanding of the history or they know the history that was told wrong, they really don't know what to do. So they're making wrong decisions based on ignorance or, you know, a lack of information. I think the second thing that majority leadership does, particularly in the corporate world, is that they still have to speak to and answer to shareholders, and so they're not going to do anything that is going to, you know, jeopardize that. And so even when you're looking at board members, and what I hear often times is, you know, "Oh, the board won't go for that," or "We've gotta satisfy the board." Well, you need to change the board then. The board may not be--you know, you may not have the right people, because boards are tokenized [when] they have one token black person and one, you know, token woman on the board, right? So those are two things, and I think during the pandemic, I think because of this ignorance they are just not aware, big companies are just not aware of the world that some of the folks on the lowest rung face, and so when you say, you know, "shelter in place, stay home," that home may not be safe. That home may be filled with violence, right? You know, you make decisions about "Who are essential workers and who are not essential workers?" and you don't--you know, are you thinking about the health--again, talking with a client today, you know, talking about some of their contingent, you know, workforce, and they were saying, you know, "Well, are we gonna pay the sick pay or aren't we gonna pay the sick pay?" You know, [?], and so all of these kinds of questions, and they realized that "Yeah, we absolutely need to do that," and so I don't think that there's enough understanding of what marginalized groups face regardless of their socio-economic. So they're making decisions from their own lens, from their own--I'll use the word privileged--from their own privileged lens, and they're missing things. It's coming to light, right? A lot of this stuff is now coming to light, but some of the earlier decisions missed just the horrific impact that this is having on everybody, but particularly those who are in the lowest low end of the economic chain.Zach: Mary-Frances, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, I'd love to make sure that I give you space to talk a little bit more about The Winters Group, what you're most excited about, what you're looking forward to, even during times as uncertain and extraordinary as these. I'd love to just give you space to talk a little bit more about your company. Mary-Frances: Yeah, so we're looking forward to, you know, transforming ourselves as we always do, but this pandemic has made it absolutely imperative, and we've already been doing virtual learning, but we are looking at innovative ways to do virtual, ways that other people are not doing virtual. You know, we have whiteboards, and we have ways that we can break people out into groups. Like, the technology allows that, but I think the ways that we're doing it--we're doing simulations, and so I think this is an opportunity for us to be really, really innovative in terms of how we deliver our message. I did a virtual keynote, you know, a few weeks ago. I think it's also an opportunity for us to continue our [?] of the corporate message and the social justice message, because they have certainly come together with COVID-19 in terms of just what I was just talking about, how we see how marginalized people are even more marginalized. You know, as the saying goes, "When the world gets a cold, black people get pneumonia. When the world gets pneumonia, black people die," and so we're seeing that now, and I think it's the opportunity for us to even more strongly advocate for the intersection of social justice and corporate.Zach: Man, thank you so much, Mary-Frances. This has been phenomenal. And y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this every week. Coming to y'all with real talk in a corporate world. Make sure you check us out everywhere, okay? So you pull up your Google or your, I don't know, Bing, or your Yahoo or whatever search engine machine you're using, and you just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up there, okay? Make sure you check out the show notes. Make sure you check out The Winters Group. Check out all the work that they're doing. Shout-out to The Winters Group and all of their incredible work. Shout-out to black women out here holding everybody down per usual. Thank you for all of your work. And shoot, 'til next time, we'll catch y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Mary-Frances Winters, CEO and founder of The Winters Group, leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm. Been out here laying the groundwork for y'all, setting legacies, and [they're] probably your favorite consultant's favorite consulting agency, okay? They've been out here. They've been doing the work. 'Til next time. Peace.

Our very own Zach Nunn steps in for Latesha and Amy today and delivers a powerful statement regarding the recent deaths that we've been forced to engage and encounter. He also implores white diversity, equity and inclusion leaders to ask how they can decenter themselves in their own efforts, stating definitively that "You should not be the face of your diversity, equity and inclusion work."Sign the Change.org petition "Justice for George Floyd."Sign the Change.org petition "Justice for Tony McDade."Sign the Change.org petition "Justice for Breonna Taylor."Donate to Black Lives Matter by clicking here.Show your support for Regis, Tony, and Ahmaud by donating to their GoFundMes.We also recognize and mourn the senseless and tragic deaths of Nina Pop and Monika Diamond, but regretfully there are no fundraisers to link in their honor.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yeah, it's a Saturday. I'm here, uh, talking to you. As you know, Living Corporate exists to amplify and center marginalized voices at work. I believe that we're one of the few spaces that does that in a consistently intentional way by having black and brown voices, including my daughter who's in the background. As y'all know, she's a new cohost of the pod. [laughs] Oh, man. Keep it in. Keep it in, keep it in, 'cause we're talking about life actually. Typically you hear Latesha Byrd with Link Up with Latesha or you'll hear Amy C. Waninger from the See It to Be It series, but I wanted to 1. give our team a bit of a mental and emotional break this week and do a bit of a, like, a state of the pod and, like, more of a current events type episode today, so I'ma be rocking with y'all for just a little bit, not too long, as I seek to really get some mental restoration myself. So let's get started with just, like, the recent deaths that we've been forced to engage and encounter through social media or through closer circles. So we have George Floyd, Regis Korchinski-Paquet, Tony McDade, Ahmaud Arbery, and then of course Breonna Taylor, all senselessly murdered by the hands of the state, and, you know, it's just another set of black bodies brutalized for no other reason than just existing, right? Like, brutalized by the state and/or killed and then covered up and then supported by the case, to be clear, because Ahmaud Arbery was not killed by police, but the legal system failed and was forced to come back to the table after being pressured and shamed through social media. You know, it's challenging for me to do this work, and I think it's challenging for us just black folks. Like, we talk about black--some people say "Being black is exhausting," and that's true in that being black is exhausting in the fact that we have to deal with white systems that continually oppress and harm us, and for the white systems that are harming us or the white folks who aren't being maliciously intentional about it, then you have a whole 'nother set of people who are just being complicit in that they are too lazy to figure out ways to engage honestly and openly about the problems. You then of course have a portion of people who are really engaged in seeking to be allies, and I'm gonna talk to you guys in a minute as well, but, you know, when it comes to George Floyd specifically, I knew of George. I knew of George because George, he was a part of a church plan that came out of a former mentor and colleague, and we had very similar circles, ministry circles, and so I recall helping them set up a church service because George was very active in the community. He was a man of love and peace. And I remember seeing him. I remember seeing him at that church service, because he was helping with the chairs and he was talking to the people. I mean, again, he was a man of the community. He was in his community. And so knowing that he was so--the degree of separation is just so small. Not only that, but he was murdered in Minnesota, and my father and my step-mother and my siblings and my step-grandmother and my--and I have cousins and aunts who live in Minnesota, and an uncle too. I have family up there, like, very close, very, very close to where George was murdered, and so, you know, I'm seeing a lot of folks question the rioting that's happening and, you know, what I want to do, what I really want to do, is talk about the systemic challenges and reasons as to why people riot, and as you look at just kind of, like, the system of oppression and why these things continue to happen, but instead what I think I'm gonna do is I'm going to actually read this piece, this excerpt, from King. You know, a lot of people have been saying, you know, "The riot is the language of the unheard." Like, they take a piece of King, of that quote, and like many times, like we mostly do with King, like, we'll, like, boil down these beautiful pieces of what he's saying into something like a sound bite. It's disrespectful to his legacy. It's disrespectful to his genius. I want to read it in totality, and then we can kind of--we can go on from there. "Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots, but in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It's failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay, and as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention." And so I think what people miss the most about King--because a lot of folks, they just use King as a cudgel to shame and shut up black voices as they grow discontented with the reality of America, and what I think--what's the biggest challenge, right, as it comes to, like, this DEI work is that there's a bunch of folks in this space for reasons that have nothing to do with black equity, that have nothing to do with justice, that have nothing to do with actual equality, but it has more to do with creating false peace and, in so doing, they recenter themselves. They recreate or they reestablish the very systems that silence and mute and discourage black thought and black and brown voices, and they create, unto themselves, fiefdoms of thought leadership that have really nothing to do with anything tangible. We are in the middle of a racist cold war, and it has everything to do with white America's reluctance to face itself. It's neglected itself, it's neglected its own humanity in as much as it's neglected its black brother and sister. It's coming to a head, and it's gonna continue to surface. I mean, the fact that I'm able to quote a quote that's over 50 years old. He said this in 1967, and yet it's just as pertinent now. I think what we have to ask ourselves is what does it really look like to create and pursue justice, and those words are scary for white people in the context of race. Despite our obsession with justice in media, right--we love Law and Order, Criminal Intent, Elementary, NCIS, like, the list goes on and on. Cops. We love justice when we are on the dispensary end, but no one wants to rush to be on the other end of justice, and the fact that white America is so terrified of justice really is an indicator as to the extent and depths of their crimes. And that's what makes this work hard, being a black person, being a black man, and, like, even being a cis, hetero, black, large, Christian man makes this work challenging. We're at a crossroads though where esoteric language that really isn't approachable or doesn't mean anything just doesn't--we're just past that, right? Like, we're coming up on a national election, and the likelihood is that there's gonna be another black or brown person, a woman, a trans woman, a trans man, a cishet man, black man, body, there's going to be someone else who's gonna be brutalized by police this year. The statistics show it. And so we're at a fever pitch, but things have to change, and so with that being said, I want to talk about white response, right? So there are folks who listen to this podcast regularly who consider themselves allies by various measures. I'm not here to really judge the voracity of your claim. I will give you points of advice though as you ask yourself what it is that you can do today. I'll start with this. I'm seeing a lot of things on social media around checking in on your people of color colleagues. I'm gonna say don't do that. It's an unpopular position I'm sure, but don't do that. If you're listening to this and you and I are friends and you are white, don't check in on me. I have people who look like me, I have my family, I have my friends, I have my daughter, I have my wife, I have my parents, I have my cousins. Like, I have people that can empathize and support me in a unique way because of their joint shared lived experience, and I'm not really looking for your words right now. And I say that with love. I'm not mad, right? I'm just trying to be honest that I'm not looking for your words right now. I'm looking for your actions. So what you can do and who you can check in on are your white colleagues, your white family members, your white friends, your--again, I know I said family, but parents. Like, check in on the folks that you know don't understand, don't engage, and don't listen and/or believe the reality of black and brown people in America. Check in on your boss, the people who actually have access and power. If you actually have access and power, check in on yourself. Ask yourself "What are you doing to help improve the experience of the people that you work with?" "How can you leverage your voice and your power, the power that comes with that voice, the political capital that comes with your skin, to advocate and support others?" My frustration kind of, like, when I think about this space is that, you know, we talk a lot online--but, you know, online gives a bit of a mask, and I'm not gonna say the person who said this, but I recall I wrote something. I wrote something about white welfare. I wrote it on Martin Luther King Day. And the person who I was speaking with shared that, you know, they thought it was good, but they felt it was a little uncomfortable and that it would alienate their audience. Their audience is predominantly white people. But what they would do--while they wouldn't email it to their newsletter or promote it on their website or promote it on LinkedIn, they would tweet it, because they could "get away with it," quote-unquote, on Twitter. That's not what I'm looking for, and that's not what black and brown people are looking for. We're not looking for you to figure out the lowest stakes possible. We're looking for you to actually commit something. We're looking for you to say something. We're looking for you to do something. We're exhausted. And frankly, like, a lot of these efforts to reach out to people of color, to black and brown people, is often times an exercise in your own ego, in guilt. I'm not looking to assauge or to comfort or stroke your ego or massage your guilt. I don't care. I don't. I genuinely don't care, and I'm giving you this as a gift, because the people that are in your circles probably won't tell it to you like this, but I'm telling you as a favor. So you're welcome. So that's white response at, like, an individual level, but let's talk about it at an organizational level. So there are a lot of organizations right now that feel stuck and paralyzed at figuring out what it is that they need to do, how they need to respond. Again, the 45th, 65th email, if you're the kind of company that sends these out often, is gonna really create, I believe, more frustrations than it will relief. I would ask, if you're an executive or someone in a position of, like, organizational power, like, you manage a P&L or something like that, just ask yourself what systems exist today that harm and disenfranchise the folks on the margins. Ask yourself what new policies need to be erected to protect those who are most vulnerable, and ask yourself what are you doing as a leader to drive equity within your immediate team. You know, these are the types of things that we have to get to. It's about taking your own medicine of accountability, and the funny thing is because of the way that white supremacy is set up, if you do it right, you can do all of this and still be hailed as a hero, right? Yeah, you're gonna lose some relationships, because there's gonna be some folks who don't want you to do this. I'm talking to the people who actually care. But for the organizations that care, if you do it right, you can market this and be a hero. There's a lot to think about right now in this time. Folks are exhausted. There's all types of implications and things that we'll continue to talk about on Living Corporate regarding, like, just the mental health implications and the--[sighs] I mean, we didn't even talk about the reality of coronavirus and how it's been disproportionately impacting and killing black and brown people. I can tell you that while no one in my immediate circle has died, I've had some friends who have come close. It's just a tough time, and we're at a crossroads with diversity, equity and inclusion work. You're either going to kind of toe the line and continue to alienate and drive away black and brown folks--and maybe that's what you want to do, you know? Like, maybe this is, like, a long play for you to say, "We tried," but it's easy for you just to not do anything. You can say that nothing's changed, but you tried. So maybe that's--you know, maybe that's the route you want to take, but if you're looking to really engage this future workforce and retain talent--and not only retain them, but keep them at their best--there are some things about the way that you think about this work, that we think about this work collectively, that's going to have to fundamentally change. My ask is if you're a white diversity, equity and inclusion leader, you're listening to this, ask yourself how you can decenter yourself in your own efforts. You should not be the face of your diversity, equity and inclusion work. You shouldn't. I know, it's a wildly unpopular position, but you shouldn't. Think about ways you can empower the folks that don't look like you to drive change. They know better than you what it means to be equitable and inclusive. So with that, I am wrapping up. Lower, different energy podcast today, I recognize, but I hope that the folks listening to this, my black and brown brothers and sisters, that you take care of yourself, protect your peace at work, take off time, communicate to your diversity, equity and inclusion leader, whoever that may be, about your mental health. Take the time off that you need. Trust me, companies are incentivized right now to not deny you time off, if you're in such a blessed position to have PTO. 'Til next time, y'all. This has been Zach. Peace.

On the sixty-seventh entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield talks about how you’re waiting too late to start your job search. For those of you saying you’re going to wait for the coronavirus pandemic to blow over, Tristan would strongly recommend you reconsider that strategy - listen to the full tip to find out why, and if you’re ready to get all your ducks in a row, land three times as many interviews and have options, apply for a suitability call with Tristan! Check out the show notes to find out more. Interested in applying for a suitability call? Find out more by clicking here or below:https://layfieldresume.lpages.co/careerlevelup/Connect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter! Links in order.http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate?! It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I'm back to bring you another career tip. This week I want to talk about how you’re waiting too late to start your job search.Take a moment to think about when you start looking for a job. There are typically 4 scenarios:1. When you get fired2. When you get laid off3. When you are fed up with your job4. When you’re bored or ready to move to the next levelThe first two are the worst, you’re immediately pushed into job searching if you’re fired or laid off. You become desperate to find a job because you need to be able able to pay the bills and take care of yourself and that unemployment just isn’t going to cut it. But desperation is never a good thing in a job search and we’ll talk about why in a minute.The second two, being fed up with your job and being bored or ready to move to the next level, while not great, are better positions to be in because you are still employed. Many hiring managers and recruiters tend to favor what they call “passive” job seekers, A.K.A. people they know that are currently employed. There’s an underlying assumption that if someone is working right now that they are creating value for their employer and have up-to-date skills. So while your situation may not be the greatest you get the benefit of the doubt from recruiters and hiring managers.But what happens when that benefit of the doubt goes away?You may think your job is secure, but odds are it's not. You may think your company is going to bring you back from furlough, but the reality is most of these companies can’t afford to hire back all of their employees. So what happens then?You fall into the same act of desperation as those that were fired and laid off. Recruiters, hiring managers, and the people you call yourself networking with can all feel the desperation. This makes you less likely to be able to build your network, gain referrals, and get hired.That’s why the best time to search for a job is when you already have one or simply when you don’t need one. Things aren’t happening in a rushed timeframe then which means that that desperation is non-existent. During this time you’re actually able to start building valuable relationships, putting feelers out for what type of roles are out there, and make advocates out of the people who want to help, which I call career boosters. If you play your cards right you may even become the bachelor or bachelorette of your job search with multiple companies vying for your attention.But much of that goes out the window if you wait too long to start your job search. So for those of you saying you’re going to wait for the coronavirus pandemicc to blow over, I’d strongly recommend you reconsider that strategy. First, you don’t know what is going to happen tomorrow. Second, if you decide to wait you won’t be any more prepared than you are now plus you’ll have quite a bit more competition. Many of which will have taken this time to get prepared.So if you’re ready to get all your ducks in a row, land 3x more interviews, and have options I want o to invite you to book a suitability call for my career LEVEL UP program. Together, we’ll identify your value or what makes you different from everyone else doing this work. We’ll then package that up together in a results-driven resume and optimized LinkedIn profile. And most importantly, we’ll put a proven networking plan in place to not only build but engage and leverage your network to get you 3x more interviews.So, if you’re interested in this program make sure to book a suitability call utilizing the link in the show notes.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.Career Level Up Suitability Call: https://layfieldresume.lpages.co/careerlevelup/

Zach has the honor of having a conversation with Dr. Erin L. Thomas, Head of Diversity, Inclusion & Belonging at Upwork, about organizational equity during the COVID-19 pandemic. She graciously shares some advice regarding what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees and talks a bit about how her perspective and focuses at work have shifted as this pandemic has continued. Check the links in the show notes to connect with Dr. Thomas!Link up with Dr. Thomas on Twitter! She's also on LinkedIn. Links in order:https://bit.ly/3c0BXKhhttps://bit.ly/3c7qhFELearn more about Upwork on their website. You can view their open positions by clicking here. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2TEC8Vnhttps://bit.ly/2A5X00WFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach, and you know what? I'ma just go ahead and say it right now. It's also Emory. Emory, say something. [Emory breathes] That's just her breathing. Emory is, at the time of this recording, six weeks old. So we're here because I'm on daddy duty and my wife has to get some sleep. That's right. Husbands, help your wives, or partners rather, excuse me - not to be overly gendered on a podcast all focused on inclusion, equity and diversity. Help your partners, you know what I'm saying? Everybody, you know, they--one person can't do it all. Sometimes you gotta step in, and this podcast is great, and I love y'all, but of course I love my daughter the most. Well, I love my wife also. Let me not do any type of weird hierarchy right now live, like, a live-streaming conscience of thought on the podcast, but the point is you have responsibilities. There are things that take precedent. And look, we're in a new normal, so I'm just here. Where was I? Right, Living Corporate. So look, Living Corporate amplifies and centers black and brown voices at work. Why do I say black and brown and not, like, people of color? Because I want to be very explicit, we want to be very explicit, with what our mission is. So we aim to center and amplify black and brown identities, marginalized folks, folks on the periphery, in the workplace, and we do that how? We do that by having real talk in a corporate world. Now how do we do that? We do that by interviewing incredible leaders cut from all type of cloth. And, you know, we've had executives. We've had professors, entrepreneurs, public servants, activists, civil leaders, elected officials. We've had all types of people, artists, and today is no different. Today we have Dr. Erin L. Thomas. Dr. Thomas is the head of diversity, inclusion and belonging at Upwork where she leads diversity, inclusion and belonging, or DIBs. She leads the strategy implementation and coaching for all of Upwork. Prior to Upwork though, Dr. Thomas was a managing director at Paradigm, a diversity and inclusion strategy firm where she partnered with companies to embed DIBs into organizations through culture transformation and people development. Prior to Paradigm, Erin held positions at Grant Thornton LLP, Argonne National Laboratory developing D&I strategies, programming and metrics. Her work has been featured in Fast Company and the New York Times and recognized by Forbes, Human Rights Campaign, the National Association for Female Executives and the Equal Opportunity Magazine. She holds a PhD in social psychology, a Master of Philosophy in social psychology; a Master of Science in social psychology; and a Bachelor of Arts in psychology and international studies from Yale University. She is accredited, y'all. Okay? Don't question us, okay? We're coming to y'all. We bring y'all heat rock every single week, and the heat rock we bring is because we have guests that have heat rock. I'ma say heat rock again just so y'all get the point. Yes, I'm turnt up. Yes, it's a Tuesday. Who cares? Erin, what's up? Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Erin: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Hi, little baby Emory. I am so excited to be here, and I want to give you a number. So I'm really into, during COVID times, anchoring, you know, "How are you doing?" on a scale. 1 is, you know, "We've got to get out of here and get some more support." Like, "We're not doing well." 10 is, you know, "COVID what? COVID who?" But I think, like, if you're a 10, you also probably need some external support. Zach: Facts. [laughs]Erin: And I think today I am... I'm, like, a 7, 8. I'm very excited to be chatting with you. What's your number?Zach: That's a really good question. You know, I don't know. So it's interesting because your scale, I don't know how it accounts for, like, other things, right? So, like, I'm also here with, like, a six-week-old baby. So maybe I'm, like, a--so, like, coronavirus is not, like, at the top of my mind because I'm trying to focus on keeping this thing that looks like me alive. Maybe I'm, like, a--I'd probably say I'm, like, a 7, 8. Like, I'm pretty good. I'm happy, right? Like, I mean, life is good. The new Drake album--well, not the album, but a little collection of loosies came out recently that was very good, that I enjoyed. You know, my favorite shows are still coming on. I've caught up on some anime. So I'm keeping myself well-distracted.Erin: [laughs] That's good. I think distracted is good. I think--I don't know, I think in the beginning days of all of this it felt, for me at least, a little weird to compartmentalize, or I felt a little guilty, but I actually think that's incredibly healthy, you know, to find moments of just pleasure and delight. That's all we got, right? That's all we got.Zach: I mean, this--the reality is that before this pandemic, like, I was already a homebody. Now, people at work--like, people who know me from work would--they may not know that, because, like, in person, like, I'm a fairly gregarious guy. But, like, you know, people are complex, right? I think, like, we create a lot of these terms and things that aren't really academic or scientific just to kind of better compartmentalize people, like, "You're an extrovert, you're an introvert." It's like, "I mean, I enjoy people, but I also enjoy being alone." Like, I enjoy being at home, being with my wife and now my kid. Like, I'm fine with that. But I'm glad, I'm glad that you're excited. I'm excited and in a good place as well. You know, this would be interesting to do again, like, if our numbers were wildly different, right? So, like, you're a 7, 8, I'm a 7, 8, but if I was, like, a 2, then, like, I wonder how the dynamics of this discussion would look, especially considering what we're talking about.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I think then--and this has happened to me at work, right? Like, I come in low and someone else is high or vice versa. I think then that's the--I mean, that's the point of it, right? It's a moment of pause to figure out what do you need to put aside or do you need to get off this call or how can I support you and give that person who's lower an opportunity to either just share or not or articulate more. I just think it's a great window into "How can we work together towards whatever it is that we need to achieve?" And if now's not the time, fair. You know? We gotta go and come back together when we're both in the right space. I think that happens all the time, we just don't often put numbers to it, right?Zach: I agree, I agree. So look, that actually is a really good segue for us to get into this. Like, this pandemic, it continues to expose and exacerbate all types of inequities, from social to governmental and of course workplace, just all across the board, and I'll tell you, frankly it just feels overwhelming for me to think about holistically, let alone try to address, and so I'm really curious about just, like, considering your role with Upwork, I'd love to hear how your perspective and focuses have shifted as this pandemic has continued, and considering your level within Upwork and, like, the organizational power that you wield by way of your level, I'd love to hear about how power and influence has shaped your praxis.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. Whoo, this could take the whole hour, which, you know, happy, happy to unpack it for that long, 'cause it's deep. It's deep and very real. Like, the quickest answer for me is not that much has actually changed about the objectives that we set out to achieve for this year. How we go about them certainly has had to stay agile and nimble, but in the work that I do that's always the case. I always like to be super responsive to context and not get so [prescriptive?] about how we execute but to kind of keep our eyes on the prize, and so from my personal vantage point, I--especially during the beginning days of this--have never felt more critical than I do right now. You know, I think there's so many external conversations and great thought leaders who have articulated this better, what this crisis has really done, like most crises, is magnify fractures, gaps, inequities, that already existed, and so I've used this really as an opening to accelerate my platform and the work that I'm doing for marginalized folks at our company. So just to dig into it, you know, I did a couple of tactical things once it became clear to me that, you know, "This is serious. This is not the flu. This is gonna change everyone's lives forever," and I don't think that's an overstatement. So once that reality sort of set in, the first thing I did was I revisited these operating principles that I had crafted when I started at Upwork. So I joined the company in December of 2019. I'm only about weeks in, and there's been a lot of change since then, internally and obviously externally, but as a team of one and as the first DIB leader in our organization, I thought it was really important for me to just get anchored on what [?] and, you know, use that decision framework for really [advertising?] how I [fell?] in my role. I think, especially when a role like this is new or especially when someone comes in with a multi-disciplinary background [or] a very strategic lens, folks don't necessarily know what the role is and they kind of fill in their own blanks and make their own stories. So that was important to me, and I revisited those once we started quarantining just to make sure that they were evergreen and [stood up?] in this crisis, and they did, thankfully, and I can put [?] on my name. There's only four, and everything we do is, you know, it's systemic, so #1 is account for the systems and structures we're operating in, and that's, you know, systems and structures within our company and certainly externally as well. So that's #1, definitely holds true today. #2 is everything we do is tailored to the most specific population or the most specific point in the employee experience as possible, and so it kind of goes back to how you introduce the podcast, which is it's basically about centering. We have to get specific. We have to get articulate and discrete about what problem we're trying to solve or what opportunity we're trying to seize, and certainly during public times that's been really critical, and I think that principle holds up. The third is active. So I really wanted to mark that for myself and for others. You know, there's no passive way to do this work. Like, we're gonna have to change some things, and, you know, I think that's intuitive, but also [?] to declare. And then the fourth thing which is super critical for me, and this is where I see a lot of DIBs or DEI, whatever acronym you want to use, professionals flounder a little bit, is being pragmatic and being compelling and cohesive and telling, you know, one story that folks can get behind that also makes sense in the context of the day-to-day decisions and work that they're doing, and I think too often DIBs work kind of exists in a bit of a vacuum, right? It's a little bit of a tag-along or an extra-curricular, and I think that's the piece, you know, during corona times, that I've had to really get critical, even more so with myself, about "[?]," right? Like, do people have the capacity for this new thing or this new structure or this new effort and just really kind of giving grace to the folks who have to carry forward on the strategies, who have to, you know, change their behaviors, because it's a lot to ask even in the best of times, and I want to push and, again, lean into this comfort, but also be gracious with the fact that folks are dealing with a lot right now. So that's one of the things I did, was just, like, double-check on the way that we're going about this work. So relevant during this time. Another thing was just re-prioritizing some of those actual objectives. There were just, like, a couple that, even before corona, were nicer to have, but now it's clear that this is not the year to be working on the frills. It's really--we gotta stick to the essentials in terms of our strategic goals. And then the last thing I'll quickly say is I actually really leveraged the fact that it seems like most folks are becoming kind of armchair experts in academiology these days, right? Like, I'm learning more, more about viruses and how they spread, and I think there's some really interesting--and if I thought about it hard enough there could be a poem out of this, but, you know, I think there's some really interesting overlays between what we're seeing with the virus [Emory makes some noise] and how I think about people and the fact that--hey, Emory! The fact that we are all connected, we're all inter-dependent, and we need to center the most vulnerable. I think, as a society, that's becoming more and more clear, just with the true facts that are coming out from COVID, but it also I think has been what activists and DIBs practitioners have been saying for, you know, decades, and so I think, at least in my company, it sort of seems like there's this window of opportunity to seize on this understanding of centering and equity and disproportionate impact that folks are getting externally and [?] that same framework and understanding through the work that I do internally. I just think folks are grasping it a little bit more easily now than they might have been before this. So that, for me, has been exciting.Zach: That's awesome. And yes, hello, Emory. But no, you're absolutely right. [laughs] You know, what I find curious about this time, or intriguing even, is that because of the real impacts that this pandemic is having with folks that look like us and that don't look like us and the frustrations that come along with that, it's creating avenues for people to have even more frank conversations and to really kind of, like, get past some of the jargon and, like, these super long monologues about whatever and really get into, "No, how can we actually create impact and change and help? Because there are people who actively need help," and I think that's--and I try to be, like, a silver lining type of person, so, like, that's--so I would say that is something that is a positive out of all of this. I do think also, to your point around DEI practitioners, I do think that there's a bit of a gap when it comes to, "Okay, how do we transition from--" And I've talked about this with some other folks in the past. I think we're now doing a decent job of, like, talking about the historicity of oppression, or we'll talk about systemic inequities in, like, these very, like, high level systems that almost seem--like, we speak about them almost, like, in the abstract, right? So we'll say, like, "Well, you know, black men, they have disproportionate--they're targeted by police and da-da-da," and it's like, "Okay, that's true," and I'm not being dismissive of that. "Let's talk a little bit more about the systemic inequities in your workplace though," right? Like, "How can we transition these conversations to be a bit more practical and targeted to the reality of your employees?" And, like, that's--and I get why, you know, there's a variety of reasons why we don't necessarily have those conversations when I don't think we necessarily know how, but then two, like, it's increasingly uncomfortable to have conversations about actual power in your workplace, because then we start looking at individuals, right?Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it's hard, or maybe impossible, not to take, you know, a conversation about power and privilege personally, but at the same time I think where I've seen the most effective work, where I've done the most effective work, is where we actually sort of meet somewhere in the middle. It's about what roles or positions do we hold, how are those products of a greater societal system, and given the seat we're in--it's not really about us. I think it's really about the position. But given that we fill it, you know, what is our responsibility? To disrupt things that before now we weren't aware, you know, we were products of, or now that we are we realize we have a bit of an urgency to leave a legacy or leave things better than where we found them, and I think that's where the activation can happen. That's where we can get [?] without guilting people, right? Without making them defensive. I think it's just the reality of, "Oh, this is all by design, and we're sort of products of this greater architecture. So now what are we gonna do about it?" And if we're not gonna do anything, that's fine too, but then we should stop talking about it. Right? So, like, that's fine. I don't--[laughs] I want to be clear that I don't judge or begrudge that. It's fine. You know, companies and leaders can make those choices, but then stop talking about it. That's where--right?Zach: Yes. That's my rub too. At a certain point it's like, "Look, I'm tired of us talking about diversity being our strength and there not being anybody that looks like me that actually has any type of authority or power." You know, "I'm tired of us always--" Like, not shoehorning in, because no disrespect. We talk about gender in these very, like, binary, exclusionary ways without being intersectional at all with race or sexual identity. We talk about sexual identity in these binary ways without including race. We ignore any race trans identities, particularly trans black female identities. So, like, if we're gonna do this, let's do it. If we're not gonna do it, let's not. It's 2020. Rona or no rona, let's just--let's just be honest. [both laugh]Dr. Thomas: I agree. I mean, you know, that's where folks get disillusioned. That's where, you know, when the word doesn't match the deed, it reads as inauthentic because it frankly is, and I think most companies or leaders within them would be honestly better served to talk a little less about diversity, about inclusion, about equity, [then keep on?], or to raise--you know, raise the bar for themselves, but this weird in-between is just not working, right? It's not working. It's frustrating the folks who are most impacted. And then we see the results, which is very minimal quantitative gains when it comes to actual representation within the workforce. So these things all [?] together. They all relate, so yeah.Zach: They do. Now this is me going off the chart, but it just popped in my--not popped in my head, 'cause I think about it a lot, but we didn't talk about it for this interview. We gotta have you back, Erin, 'cause I really want to talk about in group, out group dynamics and the pressures that marginalized people in positions of authority have to, like, toe the line in that regard or how much they push against to then create inclusive workplaces for people who look like them. 'Cause, like--no, and I recognize that's a big topic, but, like, I just want to say this 'cause it's on the top of my heart and my mind. Like, I've noticed--and I've had these conversations, like, with black folks, like, off the record, right? So, like, in consulting, you know, there's all these different tracks of leadership, and, you know, the highest up is typically managing director or partner, and I've talked to some black partners who I really respect and everything, and I'm like, "Look, how many of you do you meet?" 'Cause the people that I talk to, like, they're with it. Like, they're conscious. They genuinely care. They try to use their access, power and privilege, relative power and privilege, to help other folks that look like them--and I'm talking, like, two people, right? [both laugh] And I asked them like, "Yo, what's going on? Like, why are the rest of y'all a bunch of Clarence Thomases up here? Like, what is this?" And so we had this whole frank discussion about it, but I really want to have you back on, because, like--I don't know. I feel like you and I could have that conversation, but I want to have it because, like--and I had this very... it was not uncomfortable. Wait, let's pause. Everybody stop, everybody. Y'all should know by now. This is, like--we're a couple hundred episodes in, hundreds of episodes in actually of Living Corporate. Y'all know I enjoy awkward conversations, so this exchange I'm about to explain to y'all was not awkward for me. It was awkward for them, okay? It was not awkward for me. So, you know, I had this conversation, and--[Emory makes noise] Oh, goodness, my daughter is loud. Hey, y'all. Y'all, check it out. Y'all hear these vocals by Emory. Don't play. No labels, but, you know, we'll make a SoundCloud soon. So anyway, I was talking to this person and I was like, "Look, the reality is the folks in power only let a certain amount of us in these spaces, okay, and when you see us in these spaces high up, like, to find somebody that looks like us in those spaces who genuinely care, who are not closing doors behind and who are speaking truth to power--" Again, I'm not asking you to come show up in a Kunta Kinte shirt. I'm just saying if you could just--[Dr. Thomas laughs] Okay? If you could just, you know, act like you're black, act like you recognize, you know, experiences. To find those types of people, it's like finding a unicorn with gold teeth, you know what I mean? It's crazy. Dr. Thomas: Yeah, and it's hard for me to speak to personally simply because my role is diversity, right? [both laugh] I'm not here as a [?] professional, I am a diversity expert and researcher. So that's, I guess, a privilege if you will that I hold as a leader in my company, and I recognize that. It was true in my last role too. I was in a consulting firm, and I was on the leadership team, but we were a diversity consulting firm, right? And so even in there you see some of that where, yeah, I had to really reconcile with the fact that I was doing this work and certainly had more latitude to, you know, speak that truth to power than I would if I were in another profession, and at the same time even I find myself vigilant, of course, and protective, of course, of how much is too much, you know? Where do I strike that balance of advocating in ways that people can hear versus that active, you know, operating principle that I called out earlier, you know, [?] folks that healthy discomfort. It's tough. It's a whole level of calculus that I have become I think decent at. I think also though I always--and, you know, we should talk about this another time because we can go real deep into this, right? I always view this dance of, like, on the one hand, any professional--especially any leader--is context switching and code switching all the time, right? Like, that is effective leadership, right? That's effective, but yet when you're a person of color, when you are black--which I can speak to--when you're brown, I think it creates some compunction of, like, "How much of this is playing the game that anyone would play and how much of this is selling out?" And I don't have an answer. I think everyone has their own barometer for that, but it's something I challenge myself on all the time. Like, "What of this feels like me and what of this feels like I'm becoming complicit in something that I don't subscribe to?" And, you know, sometimes I can't really codify when I'm feeling uncomfortable, but I know what I'm feeling, and that's when I have to really check myself and really examine if how I'm showing up or what I'm sharing or advocating is really serving my key audience, which is our marginalized folks at our company.Zach: Yo, so thank you for real. Sound Man, put a little round of applause in here for Erin answering this question off the fly, 'cause we did a pre-production. This was not part of the questions, but it was just something on top of my mind. Thank you so much. Now, look, let's get into this though, because we're just now really at the top of the conversation we planned on having. So look, at the time of us recording this, over 32 million folks have applied for unemployment benefits. At the same time, many companies are trying to retain their employees and keep them engaged in new working environments. I mean, there's even a lot of unofficial conversations happening on companies having pressure to not let go of too many minority employees in the name of just optics and potential legal ramifications. I'm curious, can we talk about this dynamic [?] where tensions may be, particularly for black and brown employees.Dr. Thomas: Sure. I mean, when I hear this question I'm really thinking about it as what are black and brown workers maybe thinking, feeling, [?] with individually if they are still employed, and I think I've seen both--at Upwork it's certainly [?] as well, 'cause obviously I consume research, I consume, you know, thought leadership externally, and I think there's a picture that's sort of forming for me in my head, which is there's a range I think of emotional reactions for folks who are still employed, and I think at its best folks are feeling really grateful of course. Right? It's sort of--going back to operating on a scale of 1 to 10, it's, like, yeah, a very compartmentalized 1 to 10, but, like, we're grateful for the blessings we have, and I think certainly that is true for folks who are in jobs with fair pay and fair benefits. They want to give their all to their employers because their circumstances could be so much worse. And I think especially in, you know, people work, in mission-driven organizations and purposeful organizations, that's incredibly true, you know? I'm seeing more and more come out, for instance, among mental health professionals who are burning out 'cause they're just giving it all. And I think, you know, in normal times it's hard to strike that balance of taking care of others versus yourself, and I think especially now, if folks are lucky to still have some semblance of job security, they're giving a lot, and they're very grateful. I think, towards the more extreme ends of this spectrum of reactions, I'm also seeing certainly some guilt, some comparative guilt, you know, around--there are folks out there who are on the front lines, who are essential workers, who have lost their jobs, and so "Maybe I'm not feeling great about what I'm doing or where I am, but, like, how could I complain?" Right? Like, "How can I explain when--maybe things aren't ideal, but I have so much," and so that's where I start to get--yeah, I get a little nervous about that, but I understand it, right? Like, you won't want to rock the boat right now when employment is so precarious. I think there is, you know, on this extreme end of the spectrum, a bit of grief happening, just--obviously black and brown folks are more likely to have people around them succumbing to this virus, falling ill, being unemployed themselves, and so, you know, folks are at work but breathing different losses that some of their counterparts may not be breathing as directly. And then there's backdrop of fear. Like, even if you feel secure in your job for now, this whole situation is obviously unprecedented. We don't know what will happen to the economy, we don't know what will happen to our companies. And again, the research shows that black and brown folks, and women, are the first to get furloughed, to get laid off, to your point, and we know in secure times black and brown folks are more heavily scrutinized, and I think folks who are still working feel a microscope that may or may not be on them, but it's impossible not to be vigilant about if you're gonna make it out of here with the job you went into this crisis with and if that job is actually the right job for you or if you're feeling beholden to, you know, a vulnerable time in your life. I think it's a very confusing time, but it all goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that it's just magnifying some of the sentiments that folks are always feeling. I think there's an overlay of, like, true uncertainty that is pressing, but I think folks are really trying to just get through the day, trying to keep the jobs they have, and, you know, trying not to encounter some of the secondary traumas that come when you lose that job, that security that you have in place. So I'm seeing a whole swirl of things, and the way they look to me basically is people are tired. They are exhausted. They are burning out and, you know, I think they're taking care of themselves a little less than they used to because it feels a little risky to do that.Zach: You segued really well into my next question about, like, black and brown employees and their experience, and it's funny because I was talking to a colleague about this, talking to a workplace colleague about, like, my own experiences, and I was telling him about, like, you know, "I've had some stresses because I've had some friends who almost fell victim to COVID-19," and, you know, they recovered, you know, but I also have acquaintances whose family members have passed, right? So you're right, like, what's on my mind and the stresses and the drama is--just what's on my mind is different throughout the day, or maybe it's just a little more real. Let me not say that other folks--'cause there have been white folks dying from the coronavirus too. So it's like, you know, not about trying to dismiss one to uplift the other. It's just like, "Okay, this is real for you, and it's even more real for me." And so I'm curious, like, you know, can we talk a little bit about what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees?Dr. Thomas: For sure. I think, you know, first I want to say 1. thank goodness for your friends who have recovered, and 2. I'm very sorry for the losses that are close to you, and to your point, I'm sorry for that for everybody. This is--you know, the backdrop to all of this is just... it's really hard to fathom honestly. It's hard for me to, like, wrap my head around the devastation this has caused, and it's just--it's so painful, and I'm sorry that everyone is going through this in some way, 'cause everyone is affected and is going to be in some way by the physical toll that this is taking on people. To that point, you know, I think there's a few things that orgs can do kind of from the top down. I think there's also things certainly that any individual colleague or manager can do for the folks around them, but I'll talk about this on a couple of levels. Sidebar, I always think of the Nick Jonas song "Levels" whenever I'm thinking about how to approach this work. Zach: Now, hold on, what is the Nick Jonas song--'cause see, the only song I know by Nick Jonas is that "I still get jealous--" You know what I'm saying? "[continues singing]."Dr. Thomas: It's about--I'm trying to think of how it goes. It's about "love has levels." "Levels, levels." I don't know the words.Zach: Come on, Erin. Come on. I hear you with the vocals.Dr. Thomas: I know. I gotta find it, but I like him, and I know he has a song called Levels, and I always think about it. It's like, "Oh, levels, take me higher--" I don't know. Levels take me higher. I don't know. It's a terrible song.Zach: It's a terrible song? Okay. Did he have a black choir in the background? [both laugh] Yo, when Nick Jonas came out there, boy, he came out there and they was like, "I still get jealoous." I was like, "What is going on? Jesus ain't got nothing to do with this." I mean, he's a jealous guy. Anyway, moving forward... [both laughing] Dr. Thomas: I'm gonna have to find it, I'm gonna have to sing it and just send you a little audio clip, 'cause I can't even remember the tune, 'cause it's not a memorable song. Love you, Nick.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Dr. Thomas: You know? From the top down, companies, and really I'm talking about leaders, people leaders, diversity leaders, can take care to do a few things. One is--and I saw this during the earlier days of people sheltering in place. I think it's leveled out maybe a bit, at least from my vantage point, but in the beginning there was a lot of corporate messaging--and I think you even see this still in commercials--of, you know, "We're all in this together," and on its face, cool, cool, cool. Like, right, you want to build camaraderie, you want to cohere folks around a shared sense of community, but if you beat that drum a little too long, especially within your company, I think it can kind of err to the side of being colorblind, right, and really minimizing the disproportionate strain that there actually is on employees of color and on black and brown folks. So I think striking that balance of certainly we're all in this together, and also there are distinct experiences that we know folks are grappling with. It's an important sort of dual approach to make sure that your folks who are black and brown know that they're seen, know that they're recognized for their unique experiences through this and the unique impacts that they're encountering. So that's one thing, just sort of take that multicultural lens to those company communications that you're sending out. I think another thing is, you know, wherever you can creating space for employees to uncover and share more about their specific experiences. So, you know, we did this back in April at Upwork. We partnered with Michelle Kim, who I know is a friend of the pod.Zach: Come on. What's up, Michelle J. Kim? Shout-out to Awaken Co. What's up? [imitating air horns]Dr. Thomas: [joins in, Zach laughs] She's awesome, and we sort of co-facilitated I think a 75-minute conversation with leaders of our Asian ERG(s)--and this is before the data about [?] were coming out with regards to black and brown folks, and the conversation was mostly around--in terms of the media--anti-Asian bias and discrimination and racism, so we seized on the timeliness of that conversation and built out, you know, a virtual forum for our employees to share what they were concerned about, what they were hearing in their day-to-day lives and interactions, and to scale out from that, from those stories to give more context to, you know, why are we seeing this, what is this. This is not unique to this moment in time. This is, you know, a pattern repeating, and really come from a place of urgency to educate our folks a little bit more about historical context and why it matters now and certainly what they can do to disrupt and call out bias in themselves and discriminations they're seeing externally. A third thing is certainly around mental health and benefits and resources to aid folks, you know, who are experiencing trauma and grief. And I don't think this just has to be if you've lost someone close to me. I think in general folks are really struggling obviously with anxiety and insomnia, and there's data coming in on that, and so making sure that your company has the right level and amount of bereavement and [leave?] policies, but also just coaching and support with your EAP if you have one or your [?] and getting them at least to a basic level [?] of providing that 1:1 support for folks and hopefully referring them out to medical providers if they need, you know, more professional coaching. And then the last thing, you know, is related to what you were saying about terminations and lay-offs and all that. Every company should be auditing the decisions they're making this time when it comes to furloughs and risks, making sure that they're looking at that through an equity lens, making sure that they're not just focusing on people's kind of positions in the company or tenure, because black and brown folks tend to sit lower in the org and tend to be earlier in their tenure, so really taking a performance-based approach to that analysis can be helpful in getting out of that sort of hamster wheel of, you know, first in first out when it comes to black and brown folks. So those are, you know, top-down, structural considerations that companies can be taking every day. I think on the ground, peers and managers can be doing some of what we've already role modeled in this conversation. Check in with people, my goodness. Just think about who you haven't spoken to in a while. Think about who you might normally pass at, you know, the water cooler or the coffee station, and if you haven't chatted with that person 1:1 in a minute, you know, Slack them, ping them, whatever you've got in terms of internal messaging systems, call them, pick up the phone and check in. Just see how people are doing, and make sure you create, you know, space to actually hear their answer and to actually respond. So, you know, as opposed to the normal "How's it going?" Like, really ask the question and really wait for the answer and be with that person with whatever they share, you know? I think it's really about those personal connections that we probably took for granted when we were back in an office setting, for those of us who were in offices, and that are harder to actualize now, right? Like, we're all home. We're all behind screens, and so there is no organic water cooler conversation. That means we have to make a little bit more effort to reach out to folks and to show them that we care about them, that we're connected to them and that we're a resource, or that the company has resources, for them whenever they need.Zach: I love it, I love it. Now, Erin, you know that we're about real talk in a corporate world like I said at the top of the show. For the executive leader to this and perhaps rolling their eyes or maybe, like, speed listening and being like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah," like, you know, just kind of being dismissive as to the gravity of this and why this matters. Why should folks have an inclusive and equitable lens during this time, and then what's the potential fallout in your mind if they don't?Dr. Thomas: I have so many reactions to this question. I think, first, if someone's rolling their eyes to this, which... yeah, could be true, I'll just, like, emphatically say that's not my key audience. Like, I'm just not--you know, I'm really not, and I'm just not. That's not my sweet spot. There were times earlier in my career where that was, where I found it fun to really push the business case for equity, business case for diversity. I am not interested in that anymore, and thankfully I'm in an org where I don't have to do that. Like, kudos to those of you who are doing that. Frankly, for me personally, that's ineffective, right? You know, people do not make decisions based on facts or data. So, you know, I could stand here and talk about the research that's been done. You know, Great Place to Work just did a study around [?], right, and they showed that those who focused on inclusion did better during the recession and saw more returns. So, like, I could share all those stats and all that, but it doesn't matter. Like, if you're rolling your eyes, if you are asking why or if, like, it's probably not gonna happen for you. Just call it, you know--because you can Google it, you can ask Siri, you can ask Jeeves, you can do whatever you want to do, but, like--Zach: [laughing] Not ask Jeeves.Dr. Thomas: [laughing] You can go back to Jeeves if you have to, but my point is that this is not how people make decisions. People make decisions emotionally. They do what they want to do and then they rationalize it later. That is a fact. Zach: That is a fact.Dr. Thomas: You know, it is. And that's science. [laughs] And so if you're not in any way emotionally inclined to care, nothing I say, no data point is gonna make you care. So I think that's one thing. Like, I am impatient and frankly, especially with, you know, decades of research that I think has really caught on in industry, we're just past the point of denying the value proposition of diversity. I think it wastes calories. I think it distracts from the meaningful question, which is, like, how we can go about it during this time or, you know, what we should be prioritizing. I think those are fair questions, but if you're, for whatever strange reason, listening to this podcast and rolling your eyes, like, I don't have time for it. I just don't. I don't. And already that was too much time explaining how I don't have time for it. So that's my quick reaction to that. [both laughing] I think those who are kind of, you know, struggling with how to go about this or where to maybe invest less or more, that's incredibly fair. I think that is incredibly challenging. So what I would say there is just--it goes back to what we talking about earlier. I mean, this is life and death, right? It does not get more real in terms of a call to action than this moment in time, and I think every leader should sit themselves down and critically examine what legacy they want to leave, you know? This is the time for companies to demonstrate what living values, living their values actually looks like. It's their time to pressure test, you know, different mantras that companies love to share around, you know, authentic selves at work, or "Bring your whole selves to work," because you saying--it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You're saying those things... well, here's your moment. Here's your moment to [know?] what it really means, and that's true at the company level, it's true at that personal level. Hopefully you're inclined to want to dig more deeply into what actualizing on your commitments actually could mean right now, and I think that's the place to get really serious about where are the potential gaps between what you're saying and doing. And as we said earlier, you know, if you realize "Huh, even in these most dire circumstances, we're maybe not really ready to make the investment that we might need to actually move the needle or create the environment that our people need." Okay. That's a tough conclusion to come to, but okay.Zach: That's responsible though, right?Dr. Thomas: Right. Yeah. I mean, and then okay, well, then you have to communicate that back, but if you have been talking a game for a while and are realizing you want to step it up, that's amazing, and I think from there what you can be doing is really leveraging external leaders--I mean, there's a lot of information, tools that are free. You could certainly and should be always leveraging your internal employees or workers however they want to be leveraged to help you reveal your blind spots. But this is it. Like, this is the moment, and hopefully orgs will really step it up and leave a footprint that I think can last for generations. You know, what companies do now I think is going to reset how people see them in the public light, how people see them as an employer of choice or not, and so it's a critical kind of come to Jesus moment hopefully for leaders and orgs to double down or to de-emphasize the things that we've been talking about for a while.Zach: Yo. Man, I mean this has just been an incredible conversation. I would be remiss not to drop a Flex bomb right here, and then also some air horns, put 'em in right here. Okay, there we go. Erin, before we let you go--before Emory and I, excuse me, let you go, any parting words or shout-outs? I know you've been dropping wild gems this entire time, but I just want to give you one last--you know, where they can find you, what you're excited about with Upwork, anything. Give you time to plug.Dr. Thomas: Oh, goodness. Okay, I did not prepare for this. I have so many people to thank. I would say find me on Twitter. That's it. Please don't try to find me on LinkedIn. I don't respond on LinkedIn. Real talk. It's just too cluttered. So ErinLThomasPhD is my Twitter handle. I would say check out Upwork. I have been a lot of places. I have led diversity within two other organizations before now. I've been an expert consultant. I've seen a lot of what companies are doing, and I wouldn't be at Upwork if I weren't rabidly passionate about what we're doing and about all of the magic ingredients that attracted me to our company. So I'd love for folks to check us out. Come work with us. We're a great, amazing, purposeful company doing great work, with cool leaders like me, so come on through.Zach: I mean, this is the best ad I could imagine. [both laugh] All right, y'all, you know what it is. We're having real talk in a corporate world. I'm saying it, like, three times this time, but you know we amplify and center marginalized, underappreciated, underrepresented, undersupported, underestimated voices at work, and look, you can check us out anywhere, okay? Look, we're all over Barack Obama's internet. You just Google Living Corporate, okay? We're gonna pop up. We're there, okay? We're all over. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Shoot, if you old school and you're like, "Nah, Zach. I gotta go in the browser and type in the domain like a true OG," then I'ma say, "Okay, cool," and I'ma tell you www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all of the Living Corporates except livingcorporate.com, so if you type in livingcorporate.com and Living Corporate does not pop up do not be mad at me, 'cause I told you already we don't got that one. We got all the other livingcorporates, or living-corporate.com--please say the dash, all right? You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us, okay? DMs are wide open. We are not afraid of the random DM. Just hit us up. We'll make sure we hit you back. If you have a listener letter, you know, you could submit it right there. We'll answer it on the show. We got a decent number. We try to get to a critical mass so we can answer a few, and then we kind of make that an episode. Just so y'all you know. It's, like, a peek behind the curtain. Until next time, y'all. This has been Zach, and you've been listenimg to Dr. Erin Thomas of Upwork. Me and Emory are gonna catch y'all later. Emory, you got anything to say? [Emory's silent] Nope? All right, y'all. Peace.

On the thirteenth installment of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Traci Adedeji, the AIO program lead at AIPSO and president elect of the Rhode Island Chapter of the CPCU Society, in a wide-ranging interview about her unique role, her unconventional journey into the insurance industry, and so much more. Traci espouses the importance of establishing mentoring relationships at work and shares some advice on how to foster a very strong professional network on LinkedIn. Check the links in the show notes to connect with her and find out more about the CPCU Society!Connect with Traci on LinkedIn.http://bit.ly/2T9giYRFind out more about the CPCU Society on their website. They're also on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. Links in order, beginning with their website:https://bit.ly/3cWpbh7https://bit.ly/3giUQeGhttps://bit.ly/2WUwfFuhttps://bit.ly/3e6nON4Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org:https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach Nunn. Now, listen here. Y'all know what we're trying to do. We're trying to build, inspire, encourage, empower, all on a platform that affirms black and brown experiences in corporate America. And it's interesting because as I came up just kind of coming into myself as a professional, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me in consulting. I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me in human resources either. But when I would come across someone who looked like me doing something I wanted to do, it gave me encouragement. It gave me a stronger sense of hope that I could do it too, and so it's with that that we're really excited to talk to y'all about and bring you another entry, actually, into our See It to Be It series. So the next thing you're gonna hear is an interview between Amy C. Waninger, a guest on the show, a member of the team, and the author of Network Beyond Bias, and a leader who just happens to be an ethnic minority. In fact, yo, Sound Man, give me some air horns right HERE for my leaders. [he complies] Yo, and give me some more air horns right HERE [he complies again] for the See It to Be It series. So catch y'all next time. I know you're gonna enjoy this. Peace.Amy: Hi, Traci. Thank you so much for joining me today.Traci: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm honored that you asked me to join you.Amy: Well, I am excited, because you and I have worked together before on committees and projects, but never in the same company, although we are at least in part in the same industry, in the insurance industry. And so I was wondering if you could tell me just a little bit--because your job title is program manager, but a lot of people who are not in a project management space or in a corporate space with a lot of projects may not understand what a program manager does, so can we just start there with kind of what is that job?Traci: Okay. So technically it's "program lead." I work for AIPSO, which is not an insurance company, but we provide services to the insurance industry. So the easiest example that I can offer for what we do would be let's say that in the state of Rhode Island, most--every state actually has a mechanism to handle what's called residual market business for automobile insurance, because in just about every state you have to have automobile insurance to be able to drive. So what happens is that, you know, if Allstate writes 40% of all of the standard automobile business in a state, the state will say, "Well, you also have to write 40% of the residual market business in that state," and--Amy: And the residual market is typically, like, really high-risk drivers that couldn't get insurance other ways, right?Traci: Essentially--exactly, people who are unable to get insurance through the standard market for a variety of reasons. So what Allstate might say is, "We know we have to write this business, but we really don't want to program our systems to handle this business. We don't want to hire people to handle this business that's underwritten and processed a little bit differently than our standard business, so what we're gonna do is we're gonna hire AIPSO or a company like AIPSO to handle it on our behalf." So that's probably the cleanest example I can give of what we do. There's some variations on the ways those different mechanisms work, but that's probably the clearest example. As the program lead, my responsibility is a little bit of underwriting, a little bit of program or project work. If we have to implement changes in the system, I'd be involved in the business requirements and working with the technical folks to make sure that our systems can accomodate what it is that we need to do from an underwriting and processing perspective.Amy: Thank you for that. I appreciate that. So how did you get involved in the insurance industry? Because I'm guessing, based on all of the people I've talked to in the insurance industry, that when you were 5 years old and, you know, you went to a family event and Grandma said, "And Traci, what do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably didn't say, "I want to be an insurance program lead." [both laugh]Traci: You are absolutely correct, although I do love insurance so much that I think we have to get to a point where, especially little brown boys and girls say, "We want to work in insurance." I was--I'm 54 years old. I'll be 55 in April. And when I was 16 years old, I was a teen mom, and when I was 17 years old I had another baby. So here I am, two children, college dropout, and my parents said, "You gotta get a job. You gotta do something to take care of your babies." So I got a job working at an insurance agency as a file clerk, and one day everybody was busy, the phone rang, I answered the phone, and it was a very simple call that I was able to answer because I had been listening to the people who were customer service representatives, so I just handled the call. I got promoted to customer service [?], and this was in 1984, and just worked my way up. I went from working on the agency side of the business to the company side of the business, as an assistant underwriter to an underwriter to an underwriting manager in different companies around the New York City area. In 2007, I thought I was in love, [laughs] and actually left the industry and moved from the New York City area to Rochester, New York. That relationship and the business that we were trying to build together in a different industry didn't work out, and I had to get a job, and insurance was all I knew at that point, 'cause at that point I had worked in the industry for over 20 years. So I came to Amica in Rochester, moved to Rhode Island, and, you know, Amica is an amazing place to work. I was very happy working there, but I got a call one day from a recruiter--that's what happens when, you know, people have your information out there when you're networking, and the gentleman said, "I've got this position I'm trying to fill. Do you know anyone who would be interested?" And when I looked at it, it looked like it was the perfect storm of everything that I'd learned to do in all of the different positions that I'd had in insurance. So I went on to interview and I said to myself, "Okay, I really don't want to leave Amica [?], but, you know, this is a really cool opportunity." So I had a number in my mind. I said, "Okay, if they come back at that number, that's gonna be the universe telling me that this job is for me." I interviewed on a Wednesday, and on Friday I got an offer at the exact number that I had in my mind.Amy: That's amazing. So I always tell people, "When a recruiter calls, answer, because you never know what's waiting on the other side of the phone for you," and if not for you, then someone that you know, right? You may think, "Oh, I have no interest in that whatsoever, but I know someone," and if you can connect those two people, you've just created something amazing for someone else.Traci: Exactly, which was also the relationship with that recruiter, because if you then get to the point where you legitimately are looking for a position, they're gonna remember how you helped them out when they were trying to place folks and they're gonna do their best for you.Amy: Absolutely. And sometimes you even get a little referral bonus out of it if you--[both laugh] if you, you know, send them to somebody that they can place. So I've had that work out for me too. I was never expecting it, but when it happened it was always nice. So you've already told me about the different types of positions that you've held in the industry, but, you know, you came into this industry kind of by chance, right? You just happened to get a job at an agency. What has been the biggest surprise to you about working in insurance that you didn't realize as someone from outside?Traci: This is something that I've known for a while, but I think the thing that solidfied my interest in insurance and was my "a-ha" moment was when I started studying insurance, when I started studying--I actually started studying for my CPCU, which is, as you know, a professional designation in the industry. I started studying for my designation in 1992, and in studying insurance I came to have an appreciation for first of all how important insurance is, but also how diverse the industry is. Pretty much any discipline that you would be interested in studying, there is a job for you in the insurance industry, and that is I think the coolest thing about insurance.Amy: Yeah, I had a similar experience. So I came into the insurance industry as an IT professional. That was my background. No insurance background whatsoever, but I just happened to be a consultant that got placed at an insurance company, and when I then later got hired by the insurance company, somebody told me about the CPCU designation, which--it stands for Chartered Property Casualty Underwriter. It's a professional designation that requires 8 courses to complete. You have to pass some tests, which thank goodness they're multiple choice now. They used to be blue book.Traci: [laughs] Yeah, I remember the books.Amy: No, thank you. I wouldn't have done it. I would've been too scared. But anyway, I started studying because, you know, I wanted to prove myself in this industry, and I wanted to frankly get the bonus that came with getting the designation that my employer offered at that time, and I was amazed by the scope of the insurance industry and the mission of the insurance industry, and when people ask me "Why do you love insurance?" And, you know, my focus of my company is not insurance-specific, although maybe it will be someday, but I think insurance is so fascinating because it does two things. It makes all economic investment possible. There's no part of the economy that insurance is not affected by or that it affects, right? I mean, every single transaction that happens is backed somewhere by an insurer. And the other thing we do in the insurance industry is we're there when people need us most. I mean, on somebody's worst day, we're there to help in, you know, ways that we can to make them whole and get them back on their feet, and I can't even imagine a more meaningful industry than that. So if somebody who has maybe never considered the insurance industry before and wants to learn more about the kinds of jobs available and how to get in--you know, how to kind of break into this industry, where would you recommend that they go?Traci: I would recommend that they get in touch with the local chapter of CPCU. I would also recommend that they get in touch with professional insurance agents and brokers, because they have professional organizations. Depending on where they are in their career, I would, you know, for example, if they're a high school or college student who's interested in the industry, I would look at internships with companies, with insurance companies. So those would be my suggestions. I do also know that through professional organizations, those of us who are invested enough in the industry and in our careers to be a part of these organizations have a tendency to be pretty generous people, so it would be pretty easy to even get a one-on-one informal, or even formal, mentoring relationship with someone who is in the industry that could offer some guidance.Amy: That's a great idea, and I know that there are a number of formal programs, but like you said, LinkedIn is a great way to just connect with someone if you have a target company in mind and you want to learn more about it. Most people are open to a phone call or at least exchanging emails and, you know, seeing what they can do to help. That is true. So, you know, the insurance industry has a reputation--and I won't say whether I feel that this is deserved or not, and you know exactly where I'm going--but the insurance industry has this reputation for being stale, pale, and male, and it's all a bunch of old white men, and that's it, right? And I know a lot of different industries suffer from this stigma, but for people who are maybe not older or white or men, what resources have you found that can help them kind of find their place in the industry, feel connected to others, feel a sense of community so that we can retain that talent in this industry and not lose it to somebody else?Traci: For me, I think back to a company that I worked for in 1990, and that was where I really got my start as an insurance professional and learned the most about the industry, but it's also where I recognized that at that particular company, in 1990, the early '90s, if I wasn't a white man with a degree from the right school, there was a very distinct feeling on how far I was going to progress in my career, and that was why I ended up leaving the company. I think that we--you know, it's great to join organizations, but I'm a grassroots kind of chick. I think that it is important to give back to each other, whether it's women, whether it's people of color. It's, like, whatever commonality you have with someone, if you see someone that's struggling or you see someone who's where you were previously in your career, you have a responsibility to reach out to that person and to offer them guidance if they're receptive to it. I'm the type of person that I have no qualms about reaching out to other women, to women of color, to just form those informal mentoring relationships, even if it's just "Let's have lunch once a month." There's people I don't even work with anymore. It just might be, like, an email or a LinkedIn message every now and then. So I think there's great value in forming those types of relationships. Yes, it's professional, but I think that if it's sort of a little more casual where you bond with that person and feel comfortable speaking with them, they're gonna be able to really guide you in a meaningful way.Amy: So that leads me right into my next question, which is I've noticed about you that you have a very strong professional network. I mean, you know everybody it seems like. [both laugh] And not all the same kind of people. Like, you really know people up and down the hierarchy. You know people across the industry, and when we were together at a conference last year I was just so impressed by the span of the network that you have, and so I was wondering what's your approach or what are your tips to networking and how do you stay connected with so many people with such limited time?Traci: LinkedIn makes it easy, because I can be on my computer at, I don't know, 2:00 in the morning when I wake up and can't sleep, and I can pop in and see what people have posted. I don't even have to tell you I absolutely adore your content, and every single thing you post I read and I share, you know, because I just find a lot of value in what you post, and I do the same for other people who are a part of my network. As far as I guess connecting with people, my advice would be ask. It's simply to ask. There's a woman who worked at a previous company, and she was pretty high up, you know, in the food chain if you will, and we didn't really--I mean, we had casually and in passing at work spoke, but it's not like we had a relationship. She ended up leaving the company, and I had no qualms about sending her a connection request on LinkedIn. I said, "Well, the worst that could happen is that she won't accept it, and if she says no I'm no worse off than I was before." I think that everyone has something to offer, regardless of their discipline, regardless of their position or title. I think that a lot of times we don't make those connections because we pre-judge and make assumptions. So I think that you just ask. Amy: That's good advice: So I have a friend in the speaking industry who says, "Every time you ask you risk getting a yes," and I really like that, and so I tried to kind of shore up my nerve to ask more, because I would not mind risking getting a yes.Traci: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I tell people this. I am by nature a pretty shy and reserved person. I grew up as the kid who got teased a lot in school and, you know, that whole thing, so not a lot of self-confidence in my younger years, but when you get to a point where you've got kids to feed and you recognize that the higher you achieve in your career the more money you're gonna make, you kind of put that to the side, you put your game face on, and you make what magic happen you need to make happen, and what happens is that as you practice that, even if you say to yourself "I'm gonna try to connect with one new person this week at work," "I'm gonna try to make a connection with one person who I've not had a connection with previously." The more you do it the more comfortable it becomes and the more confident you are in doing it.Amy: That is absolutely true, and I think a lot of people see networking as something very fake and forced and inauthentic, and they don't feel good about it, right? It kind of leaves, like, an icky, like, feeling about it, and when you approach it from, you know, almost gamifying it--I've done that in the past, right? "I'm gonna meet three people today. I'm gonna help three people with something," whether it's, you know, I'm gonna carry somebody's bag or I'm gonna hold open a door and say hello. Like, something, and so I think sometimes just kind of reframing how we think about networking can make a huge difference in our behaviors and our attitudes and ultimately in our results.Traci: Right. You actually said something that I think is very important, that networking and connecting with people if you treat it as "What can you do for that person?" versus "What can I get from that person?" Because people know when you're being fake. People know when you, you know, just have your hand out or you're looking for something, but we need to first of all not undervalue ourselves and recognize that we each bring something unique, but there's only one me. Nobody else brings exactly what I bring in this combination, and we have to recognize that that has value and that other people will see that value, and if we focus on "What can we offer others, even if it's a small kindness?" You know, those things, the universe will bring those things back to you.Amy: Absolutely. So I know that in addition to your day job you also volunteer with the CPCU Society's diversity and inclusion committee, and I know what a time commitment that is because I'm on the committee as well, but can you tell me how and why you got involved?Traci: I got involved because I was asked. [?]. I was new to Rhode Island, and I actually got--I'm on the board of the local chapter [?], and I was moving to Rhode Island. I said, "I don't know anyone. I want to, you know, meet folks, so joining this organization would be a great way to make friends and immerse myself even more deeply in my industry." So my request to volunteer resulted in me being asked to be on the board, and my relationship with David resulted in him asking if I was interested in being on the diversity committee. And it's a lot of work, but I think that it is important. I think the idea of diversity and inclusion has evolved so much over the years. When a lot of people hear diversity, you know, they think racial diversity, they think gender diversity, but there are so many other types of diversity, and it really I think is about making sure that there are opportunities for everyone, but I think it's also toward being a catalyst for the mindset that needs to happen so that opportunities are there for everyone automatically. We don't have to say, you know, "Oh, we have to go out and make sure that we have a person of color," there's a person of color because we just organically created a culture and a society with people of color in our community, so of course they're gonna have a role in our company, in our organization.Amy: Absolutely. And I tell people, "If you look around and you don't see someone's group represented, it's because you've got work to do to make people feel welcome and make people feel comfortable there." The responsibility is not on others to seek you out, right? And so, you know, I'm thrilled to be a part of the diversity and inclusion committee because I see that what's coming for us in terms of our talent, right, we have so many people on the verge of retirement in the insurance industry, and we just don't have the groundswell of interest among people, you know, that we need to replace all of that knowledge and all of that talent, and so I think, you know, we're gonna have to get beyond the "certain people from certain schools" and, you know, really reach out broadly and show people what we've got and why we're such a good place to have a career.Traci: Right. I think it's about building the excitement about the industry. You know, insurance isn't sexy to most people, and I think that, you know, the work that we do, particularly with the CPCU Society and the diversity and inclusion committee, is to educate the public about the excitement. Like, it's kind of our job to get them excited about insurance and to show them what next level opportunities there are. It's not just sitting behind a desk in a blue suit and white shirt and red tie. [both laugh]Amy: Absolutely true. So I wanted to ask you too about role models. Do you have any professional role models, and if so, what about them inspires you? Traci: So there's a woman--the woman that I mentioned that used to work with me, and I consider her a role model. So a few things about her that resonated with me... first of all, she's very tall like I am. [laughs] And that's something that it took a lot of years for me to overcome, because there's a tendency when you're quite tall to not want to intimidate people, so you tend to kind of--you slump a little, you try to make yourself small. So it takes a courage to just be, to stand up and just be who you are and recognize that you're putting that in your mind about, you know, your stature intimidates people, but she had such a grace about her and just a way of connecting with people. I don't know. She just had influence. She had such presence and influence, and that is something that I admire greatly and something that I work toward emulating.Amy: That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. So I hear men a lot of times will talk about "tall privilege," right? So if you're a tall man, and the statistics bear this out, tall men make more money than short men. They get promoted to higher positions. Like, we revere tall men in our society. Tall women have a different set of characteristics ascribed to them, and I am--I am not blessed with height. I'm only 5'3", but I can--you know, I can imagine how that might play out and how that might affect the way you show up. And, you know, if you're trying to make yourself smaller physically, you're probably also trying to minimize your presence in a room and minimize your contribution and not call attention to yourself and not let the best of you thrive in an environment. Traci: Actually it's interesting, 'cause I had a conversation with someone probably about six weeks ago about the idea that as a very tall not petite woman of color, if I am annoyed at work or if I feel very passionately about something, I feel that I don't have the luxury of being as vocal as someone who is not of my stature and my pigmentation, because it's perceived differently. Amy: If you're vocal about a frustration, I would imagine that the word that comes back to you is "angry" or "aggressive." If I get upset about something, if I'm frustrated and I express my frustration, I'm [BLEEP], right? I'm not angry 'cause I'm white and I'm not aggressive 'cause I'm short, but I'm [BLEEP] or I'm overreacting or I'm sensitive, right? And so I think that we all kind of operate in these constraints of words that are going to be used to describe us to kind of keep us in check, 'cause I don't like it when people say that I'm being sensitive. It's like, "No, I'm not being sensitive. You're being a jerk." But--[both laugh] that's not on me. So I can understand how that would be a struggle. So what advice do you have for young people of color in navigating those kinds of interactions? Because you want people to be, I'm guessing--I mean, we want people to show up authentically, right, but we don't want to lay a trap for people who the moment they speak up and advocate for themselves they get labeled in a way that's damaging to their careers.Traci: I can tell you what's worked for me. I think--to your point, it is important that you be who you are. So I'm 5'10". I'm gonna wear my four-inch heels because that's what I want to wear. If I think that something is not right, I am going to speak up about it. What I try to do is--and I'm just gonna say it, because I don't want to suggest that anyone be manipulative, but in a business setting, okay, what I do is I say to myself, "What is it that I want to get out of this exchange?" And, you know, know who my audience is and know what I need to say and how I need to say it to get what I need out of this interaction. You know, and I'm not talking about things where, like, I don't know, I'm being discriminated against or harassed or something like that, 'cause that's a whole different--and that's, thank God, never happened to me to my knowledge, but that's a whole other kind of conversation, but just an every day--you know, your boss has said something that you didn't like, or you've been assigned something that you don't think you should have to do or something to that affect. I think that it's important to always conduct yourself professionally. I think it's also important to separate your feelings from what the situation is, because just like the other person has their biases and this whole set of ideas and backgrounds that's influencing their behavior, so do we, and we have to recognize, like, the things that we're sensitive about. We have to recognize how we might have contributed to that situation, and we need to present our case in a constructive way. And it's interesting, because I have a 25-year-old daughter who's going through this at work right now, and what I've encouraged her to do is, you know, write down what you want to say. Ask your boss for a meeting, and even if you need to have that piece of paper in front of you, make your point. You know, if you feel a certain way, rather than saying, "You, you, you, you, you make me feel, you did, you, you, you," I would turn that around and say, "When you say or do, I perceive it as," because what you're then doing is you're taking ownership of your feelings and you're very clearly drawing that path from "This is what happened, this is how I felt, and this is how I responded to it. What are we gonna do now to fix it?"Amy: Mm-hmm. And so really what you're describing is emotional intelligence, and, you know, in my experience I've found that I am the most emotionally intelligent when I am the least represented in the room, and I am probably the least emotionally intelligent when I am most represented in the room, and so I try--once I recognized that about myself, I try very hard to think about the dynamics of a meeting or the dynamics of a conversation and "Do I need to kind of practice some of those skills because I'm dominating and maybe running over someone who doesn't feel safe to speak up with me?" Right? And so I think that if we can all do our part, right, to recognize when maybe we've got a little bit more influence or a little bit more social power and kind of back off a little bit and make some space.Traci: Yeah, and there's actually power in being able to do that I think, right? I think that when your peers see you navigate let's say a contentious situation, you know, if everybody's on 15 on a scale of 1 to 10 and you're on maybe 7 and bring everybody down to where it can be resolved, then people are gonna look at you as a change agent, if you will. So I just think that that's powerful.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And that's leadership, right? Leadership is getting everybody to a better place together. So no, I think that's great. In the time that we have left, I'd like to ask you to finish my sentence. First is "I feel included when ______."Traci: I feel included when I am able to express myself.Amy: Oh, I like that. And then the second part is "When I feel included, I ______."Traci: When I feel included, I'm able to include others.Amy: I love that. I love having people answer this, because everybody answers differently, and it's always powerful. So Traci feels included when she's allowed to express herself, and when she feels included, she is able to include others, and I don't know that there's anything more powerful than that, to be able to widen that circle and bring others in. So that's fantastic. Traci, thank you so much for your time today.Traci: Oh, it was my pleasure. I appreciate you so much.Amy: Oh, thank you very much.

On the sixty-sixth installment of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield explains why your LinkedIn profiles alone won't get recruiters or hiring managers in your inbox. He runs through a couple pieces of advice to help your LinkedIn gain some traction and really stresses the importance of being actively engaged on the platform - remember, LinkedIn is all about developing organic relationships, but you can't do that if you aren't interacting with other people's content. Looking for a coherent strategy on how to unlock the power of LinkedIn? Utilize the link in the show notes to book a suitability call with Tristan!Interested in applying for a suitability call? Find out more: https://bit.ly/35WCQSVConnect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2G7d6HKhttp://bit.ly/2XDcp3zhttp://bit.ly/2JEbg1Rhttp://bit.ly/2JCmKTzFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate?! It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I'm back to bring you another career tip. This week I want to talk to you about why your LinkedIn profile alone won’t get recruiters or hiring managers in your inbox.You’ve tried to utilize LinkedIn to land your next role, but it hasn’t been working for you and you don’t know why. You heard that LinkedIn was the place to be for job seekers. You've heard the stories of people landing jobs through the platform. So you updated your profile pic, copied and pasted your summary and job descriptions from your resume, added your education, and BOOM you have an "All-Star" profile which LinkedIn states can get you up to 27x more views. You then take some time to connect with quite a few people and signed off.A couple of days pass, then those days turn into weeks. You finally decide to sign back in, but you've got nothing but maybe a few connection requests from people you may or may not know. You start thinking: What is the hype all about? Why am I not getting any jobs?Well, the problem is you’re not using LinkedIn correctly. You aren't liking, commenting, sharing, and posting on the platform — yet you want to be seen. See the disconnect?LinkedIn’s algorithm prioritizes engagement, not profile completion. That 27x more views only applies to people who actively post on LinkedIn. Think about it, when you get on the platform and you start to scroll, you typically will see posts from the same people. Why is that? That’s because those people know that LinkedIn rewards value-based engagement. And what do I mean by that? I meant insightful posts, not just dropping an article without commenting. I mean taking the time to comment on others’ posts to add value and spark conversation, not just commenting great article. I mean sharing other’s people’s posts and adding insight. I mean writing articles to share your work, lessons, and takeaways that position you as a thought leader.Most people will tell me, well I don’t know what to post or I’m scared because my boss or potential employers are on the platform. But let me tell you something, you not putting yourself out there is the exact reason that potential employers can’t find you on the platform.Learn how to take what you do in your day-to-day work and incorporate it on the platform. This does one of two things. First, it keeps the process of identifying content from becoming too burdensome. Second, it also keeps your messaging on brand or on topic.The next thing you want to do is to consider how often and in what ways you are engaging with other people’s content. Remember, LinkedIn is all about developing organic relationships but you can’t do that if you aren’t interacting with other people’s content.If any of what I described resonated with you and you are looking for a coherent strategy on how to unlock the power of LinkedIn, I invite you to utilize the link in the show notes to book a suitability call with me for my new career LEVEL UP coaching program.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with God-is Rivera, Twitter's first ever global director of culture and community, about recognizing power in digital communities. She talks about how her passion for journalism and storytelling led her to her role at Twitter and shares the ways she sees people creating a sense of community on the platform today. She also comments on the trends she sees happening in digital community building over the next year or so. Check the links in the show notes to connect with God-is!Connect with God-is on Twitter. She's also on LinkedIn and Instagram.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and okay, so look. We know Ms. Rona is out here. Not to minimize or, you know, de-emphasize the stark reality and grievous nature of this global pandemic, but we want to make sure that we're keeping our spirits and attitudes high, and so we know that it's wild out here. We know that folks whole lives are changing. We're adjusting to different types of normal, re-identifying what normal means, and, you know, you can rest assured that in the midst of all of this stuff going on that Living Corporate is gonna be here, you know what I mean? So, you know, it's interesting. I've had people, you know, send me messages and be like, you know, "This diversity and inclusion stuff, like, you shouldn't expect that your podcast, this platform, y'all's blog, the learning platform that y'all are trying to build and whatever, for that to really take precedent when we're in the middle of a pandemic," and what I've constantly had to remind people is that, look, folks on the margins will always be on the margins. Folks were on the margin before this pandemic, and they're on the margins now, and so, like, Living Corporate and the work that we're doing and the work that all equity, community, culture, belonging professionals are doing is all the more important now. And so it's with that that I'm really excited about the guest that we have today, you know? I'm not even going to read this long ol' bio. I'ma just get into it. We have God-is Rivera. God-is, welcome to the show.God-is: Hey, guys. What's up? Thanks for having me.Zach: What's up? How are you and your loved ones doing during this time?God-is: You know, we are so blessed. I am in New York, in New York City, and my immediate family, my husband, my daughter, and my mom and aunt, who kind of--we all live in Westchester County--we're okay. Everyone's been healthy. I've got grandparents between Atlanta and South Carolina and, you know, thank God they have been adhering to staying at home. I had to do a little nudging in the beginning, but, you know, them old folks is trying to get to the buffet. [laughs]Zach: We gotta have a conversation about that, right? [laughs] And it's interesting because I've talked to other black folks, right, who have these parents who have lived through all types of stuff, so they're not really concerned about some invisible illness, right? You know what I mean? They'll just take some castor oil and they'll be fine, you know?God-is: Some tussin. [both laugh] For sure.Zach: They've seen much worse. But you're right though, it's a blessing to have family members who will listen. I know my dad--you know, my dad, he and I are very similar, so I told him--and my dad is 55--so I was like, "Hey, Dad. You know, y'all staying inside, right?" He's "Oh, son. No, no, no. You ain't gotta worry about me. I'm right at the house." I said, "Okay, good." [laughs]God-is: [laughs] That's so crazy. My mom's the same exact age as your dad, and, like, she was good. She was like, "Oh, I've been in the house." Like, my mom works remote anyway, you know, normally, and so it was the grandparents I was kind of like, "Come on, now, y'all," but they got it early and they're okay.Zach: Yeah, it's definitely the grandparents. Okay, so now look, I have a lot of questions for you, but first I gotta get into your name. Can we talk about God-is?God-is: [laughs] Yes, I can. You know, it's really kind of a simple story. I know it's a different name, but the story is kind of simple. So my mom, she was a teenage mom, you know, just trying to figure it out, from the Bronx, New York. Shout-out BX. Zach: What's up? Yerp.God-is: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yerp. [both laugh] And, you know, she was trying to figure it out at the time, and she had this dream when she was about 7 months pregnant she told me, and it was just her great-grandmother who was speaking to her and kind of was like, "You have to name this child God-is," and so--actually in the dream I think she said it was "God-is-love," and she was like, "I don't know. This is so different." You know, my mom's name is Melissa, so. And she just felt like it was such a strong feeling that she just--she was like, "I have to follow this," so she went ahead and did it, and it's so interesting that, you know, having this name for over 30 years, I could never imagine my name being anything else. I never was ridiculed for it. You know, I've had a lot of conversations and great conversation starters, but it is--I've always felt so comfortable in it, and I think for me it really reminds me every day to just continue to step into my power and the amazing kind of gift that I was given just through my namesake. So it's not kind of a crazy story, but, you know, an interesting one I guess.Zach: Nah, nah. It's not crazy at all, but it is very interesting 'cause I saw it and, you know, it's also really--so I'm from the South, right, so, like, my family is, like, very churched. So I was talking to my mom about--[both laugh]--I was talking to my mom about this interview that I was going to be doing. I said, "Look, I finally got this, like, global leader. She has this incredible, like, huge profile, and I'm just really excited to interview her," and she was like, "What's her name?" I said, "Her name is God-is." She said, "God--Goddess?" I said, "No, no, not Goddess. No, God-is," and she said, "God-is?" And so I'm like, "Momma, just hold on." And so it's funny, 'cause I was like, "I gotta make sure I ask. For the culture. I need to know." Okay, so let's talk about your journey getting to Twitter. Like, how did your passion for journalism and storytelling lead you here?God-is: Hm. Okay. So that's a great question. It's really interesting to me when I think about, you know, being at Twitter now. My whole career was shaped by social media, and, you know, when I was trying to figure out, you know, Young God-is back in, you know, high school or, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, this didn't exist, you know? I think MySpace, it kind of sort of started when I got to school, and it was just one of those things that I knew that I wanted to be a journalist. I love writing, I love editorial writing, but what I wanted to do more than just, you know, kind of general journalism is I knew I wanted to work in black media. I wanted to work as a writer or an editor. I wanted to make sure that I was elevating stories and spreading awareness for the people that I felt, you know, had been silenced, which was my community, the black community, and then others. So I think just through that kind of passion I went into journalism, and I also am part of those millennials who's like, "Shout-out to the second economic recession we're coming up on!" [laughs] Because it was like, "Yo, I thought we had one in a lifetime, but oh, we doing two? Oh, okay." So, you know, getting out of school for me was right around that time, and it was just like, "Yo, I'm just trying to make my mom proud and not be unemployed," and I kind of found my way into marketing. Even though I wanted to do journalism and I continued to moonlight and really try to make that happen, I started to really become into marketing, and it was just like, "Let me just get a job." But in doing that I think, you know, I realized that marketing also tells those stories, and there's a chance to represent people and really elevate people who aren't always seen, and that's kind of what led me on that journey. And I will also say, you know, mid-2000s, 2006, 2007, when I started my career, it was always like--when it comes to social media it was like, "Who's the 23-year-old in the office?" Like, "I don't know about that Facebook," you know what I mean? "I don't know about that Twitter. I don't know about that, you know? Just tell her to do it," and that kind of attitude that of course over time become much more--brands and companies began to take it much more seriously, but that was kind of how I got my start, you know? I was a writer who could craft posts or ideas for these platforms, and I also knew how to actually post them, not like many other people in the office who were a little older than me. So that was kind of how I started my journey. So it was a little bit of serendipity, but also still me chasing this kind of passion to tell the story and represent for people who were not always able to do that.Zach: You know, and I really want to understand, like, you know, your experience in social strategy, because you're right. Like, there was a time when it was like, you know, we'd look at Facebook or we'd look at Twitter and we'd--like, we'd scoff at that. Like, I remember I had an internship where I created essentially, like, a social media--like, an ambassador program for this recruitment company, and everyone had a social media profile, and you were supposed to essentially, like, build your brand on social media, which would then drive, you know, business to the startup or whatever, right? But you're essentially building presence on Twitter. And this was, like, in 2010--God-is: Hm, those early days. [laughs]Zach: Yeah, so people were like, "What is this?" They were like, "Oh, this is cute, but this doesn't mean anything," and so I'm curious as to, like, what did it look like to take your experience in the social strategy work and, like, help it inform what you do for Twitter today? Like, can we talk a little bit about that?God-is: Yes. You know, I'm so grateful to the years that I spent really learning content strategy, learning social strategy, and I think it goes back to kind of that point about knowing that I wanted to kind of help elevate stories, and so what happened was that I really started to understand that there was a lot of power--you know how you think about in the court system it's like the prosecutor has all the power, right? In advertising creators have a lot of that power, but the story is sold and the plan comes from strategy, and I really took a liking to that. I realized that, you know, for me, what thrills me about strategy was that I have a chance to really kind of help build that story. I have a chance to figure out "Who is the people that we want to see that story? Where does it show up? How does it show up, and who is in that?" So I think for me, like, I really started to understand that there was a power in that, and then at the same time other brands realized that there is a return in this medium that was kind of a throwaway, right? There is something coming from when we post and then people around the world are talking about this instantly. And I think it was kind of two things happening at once. You had also more access to, you know, phones and technology that could help people kind of see things in an instant and, you know, thinking about campaigns that you were gonna through display or print long ago and then posting something in 90 seconds, you have, you know, celebrities in the public answering you about your product. You know, that's something that's just invaluable. So I think that's kind of what really started to help me understand that even more, and so I really became a planner, and I got to do it for, you know, both large and small brands, but what I think really kind of intrigued me the most is that what I realized about strategy is that there's always a target, right? Who do you want to see this message? Who do we want to respond to this? And also who is in this message? How does it look? How does it show up? What experience is it detailing? And I think that that, as I worked more in advertising, that was very homogeneous, you know? It was kind of the same target, the same people, over and over again, and so even me working in those positions, my own experience was left out, so I started to be really, really interested in, you know, "How are we gonna stop making this mistake? How can we stop ignoring communities that are actually shifting the culture but we're not even including them in who we're speaking to, nor their experience in what we're putting out into the world?" So I knew that through strategic direction that I could try and maybe shed a light on that, and that's really kind of where I focused. So just in thinking through audiences that matter, audiences that have been left out, as a true strategist I need that full story. I can't actually do that job well only looking at one small piece of an audience or a compelling story, and so I use kind of just that literal sense, taking the emotion out, because I'm a black woman who wanted to see that experience and I wanted to see other people's experiences as well, but you can't deny that you need a holistic kind of view to do your job well if you're speaking to the world and you're saying that's what you're doing. So that kind of interest in better understanding communities and what matters to them and how they want to be seen is kind of how I started along this path of informing the work that I do today, which is really working to connect with marginalized communities and make sure that they're amplified.Zach: So, you know, that leads me really well into the next question. So, like, I want to talk a bit about position and power, right? You sit in a global role in one of the biggest brands on the planet. God-is: Ooh, you're making me sound cool. I like it.Zach: I mean, your name is God-is. So how do you manage the responsibility that you have as a leader? Because I would imagine you have internal pressures to, like--like you said, there are things that you want to see realized and there are things that you want to achieve. There's a legacy and part of a longer term roadway that you're riding on, but then there's also external pressures I would imagine because of the intersectionality of your own identity, right? Like, you think about who you represent and what people maybe project onto you. And it's like, what does it look like to manage both sets of pressures while being one of the few in these spaces?God-is: Wow. I really appreciate that question. It often doesn't come in that way [laughs] that acknowledges some of those internal and external pressures, but I think what I love the most about that question is that--I just appreciate you using the word power. I think power is extremely important. I think that, you know, as they continue on in their career that, you know, positions can sometimes be a dime a dozen. They can come along and come and go, but they don't always include power, and I think that power affords this kind of real chance to create something new, to affect change and really challenge systems that aren't working and to actually be truly heard while you do it. So I very much am appreciative, but also just very thoughtful about how I utilize the power that I'm grateful that I've been able to have at Twitter. I really feel like a leader that is heard who's able to challenge and create in a way that is something that's supported, which I know is not always the case specifically for some of us that are kind of, like you said, one of the onlys. I'm not at Twitter, but, you know, in this industry, absolutely. So I think that that's important, and I think about the word pressure too. I don't know that I--it can get overwhelming, but I don't know that I would call it pressure as much as I would call it maybe an expectation or a commitment. So I think sometimes I get overwhelmed because just I--there's so much I want to do and get done, you know, for the communities I serve, but the way that I kind of balance myself and stay that way is that I just have to know that every single day I am working towards what I promised, right? Every day, and that my mission, my overall mission, my integrity, it stays intact every step of the way and that I know I'm not letting up any time soon, and I try and live that externally and internally so that I can say, "Look, I am continuing on this road. I know that it's important to me. There has been nothing that has, you know, taken me off course," whether it be your own ego or just kind of getting lazy. I know that I must continue on this mission, and so that's kind of the responsibility that I feel being in these spaces, that I have to continue to do this work to make things better and that I have to hold the door open for other people to do this work with me as well.Zach: You know, and let's talk about the work, right? So you're Twitter's first ever global director of culture and community. Now, let me just tell you, when I heard the title I said, "Ayo." [laughs]God-is: [laughs] I was trying to do big things. I'm trying to do big things.Zach: I said, "Yo, wait a second!" I was like... I mean, I don't know. It just--that sounds like a big title with a big, big, big bag. I was like, "Man." I mean, I was praising Him for you. I was over here [blessings come in sfx]. I was like--[both laughing]God-is: I love it, I love it. I appreciate you. Thank you.Zach: No, no, let's talk about what this means and what your responsibility is and what your team's responsibility is.God-is: Yeah, you know, and I think--you know, I would have to say, like I said before, giving some credit to Twitter, well, the credit to Twitter, for noticing that this was something that was a gap for them and that they wanted to fill. I would like to just maybe talk a little bit about how I got this job at Twitter. It wasn't the traditional kind of application way, I guess I'll say, because I think that how I got the job also speaks to literally the work that I'm doing now. And so, just as we mentioned before, my work in social strategy, I had really started to try and find examples of how I could explain and display communities that were shifting culture, that were forming together across social platforms, and then how those kind of phenomenons could be completely missed, you know, at agencies or with huge brands and how these things were formulating and happening, but because there was almost this cultural blind spot, nobody even knew what was going on. And one of the communities that I was particularly fascinated by was Black Twitter. I think that to me it was just such an incredible just example of how a historically marginalized community kind of uses their own cultural and shared experience to come together through technology and then literally shift culture, shift the narrative in a way that's very democratized, which is kind of what Twitter offers with this kind of space. And so I had started just a small presentation about that in the ad world, and it kind of made its rounds. I had done it at a couple conferences, and I had also made sure that I formed a pretty decent relationship with Twitter comms. I didn't want to get no C&D. [laughs] Like, "Who this girl think she is out here [?] telling me how to--" You know, and I want to make sure that, you know, I didn't know if they had something. I didn't want to step on any toes. And we developed a very nice working relationship, and, you know, from there they had started thinking about their first kind of all hands on deck, all-employee conference, which is called OneTeam. The first one they did was in 2018. And they actually invited me to speak about Black Twitter and do my presentation at their conference, and I was like, "Wow, you want me to do it? Okay," and so when I went I said--you know, I kind of was like, "Well, normally I do this presentation for the ad world, and at the end of my presentation I say, "And these are the people you need to be hiring. These are the people you need to be partnering with. Do not miss groups like this,"" and this is just one example of so many groups, you know, that we need to be making sure that we better pay attention to, but at Twitter, you know, I said, "Well, I want to kind of challenge them a little differently," and my challenge at the end of that presentation was how was Twitter better connecting with the voices from these groups, you know? Do they have plans for a cultural department or something that focuses on these communities in this way? And lo and behold. [laughs] So after getting off stage I was just so, you know, again, just incredibly blessed to be approached by some of the leadership there--shout-out to Jack, Leslie Berland, Lara Cohen, Nola Weinstein, who really set things in motion for me to come to the company. They just felt like, "This clicks. You get it, you get us, and this is absolutely something that we need to focus on." So again, I think just that acknowledgement of the importance of understanding these communities, the fact that it birthed literally this work and this role and this practice now, my team at Twitter, is just something I'm proud of and I think the community should be proud of as well, because I'm not talking about myself in my presentation. I'm talking about these collective voices who have literally shifted history and brought joy and accountability in ways that are just incredible. So I think that's kind of part of the story I think is important to put in context. Not everyone knows that story. I think it's important. But, you know, thinking through my own challenge now--I didn't realize at the time I was challenging myself. [laughs] It was very meta if you think about it, but I came in to solve that problem and kind of figure out what that looks like, so my team specifically focuses on building kind of these real world relationships with the voices from these marginalized communities who are active and who love and are loud on Twitter. So I wanted a team, you know, who really could help to continue to recognize the incredible power of these voices. Like I talked about before, they drive conversation, and they really shape culture on Twitter. The other piece of that is that as we look at how they use the platform, how they use their service and what they speak about, we have consistent learnings and insights. So what my team does is really kind of help our partners across the business understand how these communities both embrace and experience our service, good, bad and ugly, and so by doing that what we really hope to do is build a bridge between the service of Twitter and the people that it serves, and that's something that I think was really important to me, that we started to become this sort of connective tissue, and the goal in that is to really help empower Twitter to build the best product, but the best product that reflects the richness of the people who use it. [laughs] And so, you know, we can start to evolve how we amplify the conversations that are most important to these groups. So just really making sure that these people's experience, their conversations, what's happening, how they use it, use Twitter, that it's on the map, that it's a part of how we think about building our product, that it's a part of how we think about our marketing. It's embedded in every piece and fabric across our organization. I hope that makes sense. [laughs]Zach: It does make sense. In fact, let me go ahead and just drop this real quick. [Flex bomb sfx] A quick Flex bomb. That's how I felt as you were sharing--God-is: [laughing, imitating air horns]Zach: Oh, yeah. No, we got that--no, we got that too. [air horns sfx] For sure.God-is: Ayyy.Zach: Ayyy. So--[both laugh] No, no, it makes a lot of sense, and I 100% agree with you that--first of all, like, I wish we could just take a step back, and what I love about the work that you're doing and what you're highlighting is the meta narrative of black influence, like, just in culture period, right? Like, before Twitter we was already, like, shaking the globe. Like, we've influenced art, fashion, language, dance. Everything.God-is: Yep. We been 'bout that life.Zach: About it, and so we just so happen to be on this--anything that we jump on, like, we make it better, you know what I mean? God-is: Right, right.Zach: And so when I think about, like, Black Twitter, and I think about, you know, you're absolutely right that there's something about this community that is able to hop on, like, a platform and then suddenly, like, change narratives or, like, shift attention, and Twitter is a phenomenal tool for that. I think it's--like, it's gonna go down... this is not an ad for Twitter. Like, it's just the truth. Like, and you think about--[both laugh] But, like, when you look back... like, so my daughter is 5 weeks old. God-is: Oh, congrats. Zach: Thank you very much, yeah. She is adorable, and, like, as I've just kind of come to the reality of her being here, like, I think about the things that she's gonna learn in school, and I think about, like, "She's probably going to--" Like, when they study, like, technology that influenced generations or just different seasons of life or activism or whatever the case is, like, they're going to look at--Twitter is gonna be one of the technologies that they talk about, because it is one of the first times that we've seen, like, large-scale democratization of access and data and information and conversation and just general communication, like, across--and, like, for free. Like, relatively for free, right? You have to have Wi-Fi and stuff, but there's no direct cost to get on Twitter. Like, you just jump on it. And so I want to talk a little bit about how you see people today create a sense of community on Twitter. Like, what does that look like from your perspective?God-is: Yeah, and that's what's just been so fascinating. I share that kind of sentiment with you, and sometimes it's almost just incredible to think about, when we're kind of heads down in the office working we're like, "Oh, my God." Like, you know, "This is gonna be in the history books." Like, the work that we're doing right now, just because of where we are and what we're focused on, will be in history. I used to always say--I have an 8-year-old daughter. A little older than 5 weeks. But I always think about, "I just want to be in her history book for doing something that mattered," you know? And I think that, you know, the work that we can do here, it can be that important and impactful, and it keeps me grounded and it keeps me humble and it keeps me fighting even on days that are frustrating. And so I think also the thing that I love to see is how people create community on Twitter. I love that you said that one of our tenets is always to keep the platform free so that there can be that access for people to have these kinds of conversations and this public discourse, and so we kind of see people create community on our platform--there are kind of a couple different lenses. So, you know, there's obviously some interest-based communities where, you know, NBA Twitter is definitely out here. I mean, it's a lot going on every Sunday now with this Jordan doc, and you kind of see that happen, but that's a hugely active community, and that's around a shared passion. An interest, right?Zach: The Homecoming Twitter. Remember?God-is: Yes! Yes. Beychella Twitter. [laughs] Yeah, so we see that. We even see things that people may not even realize. Like, Plant Twitter is huge. Like, people share all types of, you know, just tips and tricks and beautiful photos of plants and flowers and so forth in their homes and gardens, and then we see--you know, there's obviously some professions that come. Academic Twitter is huge. I've learned a lot just about Education Twitter, Finance, and then there's also locations of course, and then of course we get into kind of those affinities and the allyship and the movements, and those are the Black Lives Matter and #MeToo, and we see a huge coalescence around those kind of moments. And then of course, you know, kind of where we get into my work is around those identity-based communities, and that's when we think about Black Twitter, Native Twitter, you know, Differently-abled Twitter, you know, Latinx--Zach: So educational.God-is: Yeah, you know? And Latinx, LGBTQ+ Twitter, you know, there's tons of intersections and sub-communities within there, and I think that is what's so fascinating. You know, just thinking about even just those groups that I just named, they don't have equal footing, you know? Even of each other, in society, to be able to tell their stories in their voices, but on Twitter, you know, that is democratized. It was somewhat of an equal playing field when it comes to people being able to share what matters to them or their experiences. So that's kind of exactly where my team focuses. I focus the most on those--I am here to serve specifically those identity-based communities, and, you know, again, this is not something that--no one ticks a box obviously and says what they are or what community they ascribe to when they sign up for Twitter, but through inferences and understanding that there is an allyship or an affinity there or an identity through conversation is what's really important to us, and so that's why I dig into how these communities have kind of leveraged Twitter in unique ways, and what we're seeing is kind of people who have shared experiences or shared kind of identities, we're seeing them kind of just corral around subjects in different ways, and I think it's great that we're able to see even people shape when they're challenging discourse, you know? Mainstream media may report on something--I don't know, something as simple as, like, gentrification, right, where it's an article and it's about, "Oh, look at the new grocery store that's in Brooklyn, and it's great, right?" It is nice that there is a new grocery store in Brooklyn, but then we're able to also see that that displaces people who lived there for 30 years. You know, is it construction in a playground area or something? And so I think it allows people to have this kind of 360 degree conversation that they've been craving but was only kind of relegated to the way that these groups could physically meet up in spaces, in physical spaces, and now we're seeing that kind of much more decentralized. Zach: God-is, it's almost as if you talk to people all the time, 'cause you're helping me--[both laughing] you're helping me segue really well into my next question, because, and I talked about it at the top, I'm talking about it again. So the rona, or as some folks say "that rona," is actively outside, and finding meaningful connection is more important now than ever. What are trends you see happening in digital community building over the next year or so?God-is: Wow. You know, I mean, this is--I'm so tired of people saying "unprecedented." Like, Lord, we need another word, right? Like, what is another word we could use? But I think, you know, it's been so interesting. Again, as a strategist, the study of human behavior--and I often think about the work that I do is more of almost a digital anthropology, because you get to watch how behavior shifts around different ideas, different events, and of course different just huge, I guess, news stories or health crises that are affecting us like the rona. So I think one of the things that I've really seen is that I think that we're gonna continue to see people really trying to create space and find opportunity for these really important inter-community discussions around mental wellbeing and wholeness. I've seen a lot of discussions between several communities about the idea that this is the first time many people have had in most working lives to slow down, and so they're able to kind of foster these deeper connections through technology, you know? We're looking at a lot of screens now, but we're trying to make the most of it and really focus on that wellness, and so now that we have that chance to kind of slow down, it's helping more of us stay balanced, more empathetic, more connected. I hope that we see kind of how important taking a moment is and that that continues. The other thing I think--oh, boy. Rona done--it done started a lot of stuff, right? [both laugh] Zach: It has, or exposed a lot of things too.God-is: Yeah. Oh, yeah, exposed. I think, in terms of technology too, I think that this will continue. I mean, we've already seen just the type of connective creativity that's come out of people just being in the house, right? People just being relegated to having to shelter in place, and so I think that we'll see more of this kind of agile, nimble creativity, and then also amplifying and uplifting those people who are leaning into that. So I think we were kind of in this space before where we were sort of fortunate. We never had to really think about being immediately without certain spoils of society, and now we kind of all know that that can shift drastically in a nanosecond and that it also can be out of our control too. So I think that, you know, industries, companies, brands, governments and individuals will really start to think about how they can better stay agile and quickly adapt for moments like this since it's just in our psyche now and it's not leaving. So I think thinking through what are the tools--you know, even myself, I'm sitting here right now, I've got my microphone, I've got my speakers. I ordered a new desk, you know what I mean? Like, [?]--and I'm fortunate to even be able to do that, but I think people are really thinking through however best in their capability, how can they be sure that they're able to stay connected and be creative and pursue during times that are just uncertain.Zach: You know, as we think about--to your point around, like, privilege, and I'm in the same position as well. Like, my job allows me to work remotely. I'm on paternity leave. When I come back, like, there's gonna be, like, a phased return, and then--you know, like, I'm in a position where I'm being handled relatively gingerly because of just the benefits that my job provides, like, absent of this pandemic but that are particularly beneficial and helpful to me right now. I think about though the folks who don't have the same amount of access I do, right, who look like us, and I'm curious about, you know, can we think about technology and marginalized communities having a more mutually beneficial relationship, and in what ways do you think that we can help drive more access and accessibility for these communities so that they can actually be on platforms where they can be heard?God-is: Right. I mean, that's--I think about it too, you know? I saw an article recently about some people having literally, like, class guilt, you know, almost, over this shelter-in-place, because it just affects so many of us differently. I myself as well can work remotely where so many people can't, so many of the front line workers, essential workers, who have to go out and make sure that we can continue to live, even at the risk of their own health and the health of their families. I do think, you know, again, just going back to that love of strategy, like, the first thing I always do and I always say should be done is listening. I think that so many people jump into trying to figure out what to do before they actually listen to what people need, and that's why I'm really proud of kind of the structure and program that we've built at Twitter, which is the Twitter Voices program, which my team created and runs, and that's kind of just literally a program that allows to try and identify some of these powerful voices coming out of these communities and then set up a sustained kind of relationship with them. How do we check in on them? How do we even have, like, a quick meeting or a lunch? Now a virtual lunch. But creating that kind of ongoing dialogue between the people who need to be heard so that we're aware of what can be done, and I think that's really important to do, because I think that it's important for us to listen to people who need to be heard, and then they can not only get the help that they [?] but also hold us accountable as well. But I think that what's important is that we continue to give these people kind of a microphone and a podium, you know? We need to make sure that they're not being ignored, especially during a time like now. You know, I think back, maybe the early '90s--let's just say this pandemic was 1992 or something. You know, the people who were most affected, the people who are not getting those loans or the PPE, the people who are being forced to go back to work or grapple with losing unemployment even if they feel it's unsafe, we would have no mechanism to really hear them writ large, you know? We would have no mechanism to hear them, you know, their conversations and how they're affected across the country, across the world, and so I think now it's important for technology to make sure that we continue to provide that space, provide that microphone, provide that podium so that these people can be heard, and for people like myself who work in these groups, we need to continue to focus on continuing this momentum of amplifying those conversations, helping to spread awareness on why it's important to listen to these groups, and that will enable us to build better products, you know, create better systems, and honestly overall a better society that should be inclusive to all, and it also allows us to tear down what's not working, and I think that maybe if there is any small silver lining to what's happening is we're seeing so many systems just almost buckle because they were not built to truly serve everyone, and that's something I think that, while that's happening, we need to be sure that we're in partnership, we're listening to and we're rallying behind the people that need us the most.Zach: God-is, this has been an incredible conversation. God-is: Aw, thanks. This is great.Zach: No, this is super dope, and before we let you go, I just want to give you space. Where can people find you? Where can people connect with you at? And then any parting words or shout-outs?God-is: Oh, wow. So thank you so much for having me. This was awesome. This was a nice just break from the rona, [laughs] to get to wrap with you, so thank you again. Everybody can find me on Twitter of course @GodisRivera, G-O-D-I-S-R-I-V-E-R-A. I am terrible at email, so I won't even do that to y'all. [laughs] But if you hit on me Twitter I promise I'll hit you back. Also don't be afraid to slide in the DMs. And then lastly just--Zach: She does respond too. Like, not to cut you off.God-is: I do! See? [laughs]Zach: So y'all, like, months ago I tried to get God-is on the pod, and I think she was actually pretty new to the role. I didn't care, 'cause I was just like, "Yo, this is crazy!" So I slid in the DMs, and then she hit me back, and then, like, we weren't able to make it work, and I was like, "Dang, okay," and I felt like she curved me, and so I said, "Dang, okay," so then I DM'd you and I said, "Hey, you know, I'm sad that we weren't able to make it work, but hopefully we can stay in touch," and she hit me back, y'all. She said, "Yep. 'Sho will," and I said, "Oh, my gosh. Okay," and so then--and now here we are. So look, y'all. 'Cause some of y'all are [churched?] or spiritual. This is not a message to y'all to keep on. [?] So this is not me encouraging you to pester people. This is just me saying that God-is responds to DMs. All right, my bad. Please continue.God-is: No, I appreciate that. Thank you, because I know you probably cannot get me really any other way. Twitter is just where I'm at. This is even before I worked there, so it's very true. And also I think, you know, just one more shout-out to my team at Twitter. I wouldn't be able to delve into this work this way if it wasn't for the support and the consistent support that I get there, from leadership all the way down to my team. Shout-out to Culture & Community. Love you guys. Nola, an incredible leader, Leslie Berland, Jack Dorsey. You know, it's an incredible culture that allows us to be able to dig in and really do what we can to try and make a difference in the world, even if it means we make mistakes along the way. It's a really great, supportive environment, and I'm grateful for it. And just also a shout-out to the home team at home. My husband Jay, my daughter Jordan, my mom, my aunt. That's my home team that allows me to do this work the way that I do and try and serve as many people as I can. And I hope everybody out there stays safe. Thank you to all the front-line workers, the health care workers. Thank you guys so much for doing what you can for us. I hope to hold you guys down as much as you are holding us down.Zach: Wow. [round of applause sfx] Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. Look, you know what we do, right? 200+ episodes in. We're having conversations with executives, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, professors, activists, public servants, elected officials, all about what? Real talk in a corporate world. We center and amplify marginalized voices, underrepresented, underestimated, unaccounted voices in the workplace, and we do this for you every single week. Make sure you check us out. Just Google us, okay? We're all over Barack Obama's internet, right? You just Google Living Corporate, okay? So it's Living Corporate. Not Corporate Living. Corporate Living is the inverse of what I said. So you want to do Living Corporate, and, you know, if you're, like, old school and you gotta type it in the bar, you can do www.living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. You can do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates, God-is, we just don't have livingcorporate.com. Australia owns livingcorporate.com. It's some--God-is: Dang it. [laughs]Zach: I know, right? But one day, one day the brand will be brolic enough that we will actually go and get livingcorporate.com. I'm just going to speak that. God-is: Yes, manifest it.Zach: I will manifest it, but today the vibrations and chakras are just not there. So look, y'all. Make sure you check us out. Shout-out to God-is. Shout-out to Twitter. Shout-out to your team. And then let's make sure that y'all check out all the links in the show notes. Y'all check out God-is. Please do not bombard her with DMs, okay? I can't imagine what her DMs look like, but she has offered. She has let you know that that's the way to reach her, but I'm just asking as a courtesy. Just think about what it is that you have to say, maybe share it with--you know, maybe write it down, you know, then send it, you know? Just help her help you help us, you know what I mean? 'Cause I can't imagine the nonsense you get in there. Anyway, all right, y'all. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. Peace.

On the twenty-sixth installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, offers some helpful advice on how to reduce your anxiety when it comes to interviewing. She talks about the importance of practicing and preparing for an interview beforehand and breaks down the differences between both processes. Check out the show notes to read her piece on Money about how to crush your next virtual job interview!Interested in Latesha's Career Chasers Members Club? Click here for all the information. Membership will be reopening very soon, so join the waiting list!Check out Latesha's Money article on how to ace your next virtual interview.Stop by LateshaByrd.com! Click here to check out Latesha's shop, and don't forget the 60% discount code GETTHECOINS.Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Check out Latesha's YouTube channel.Connect with Byrd Career Consulting via LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, and FB.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTLatesha: Hey, hey. Welcome to another episode of The Link Up with Latesha. It is Saturday. I hope that it is sunny where you are and you are enjoying this warm weather. Please get out and enjoy the sun. Get you some Vitamin D. We spend 99.9% of our times up in the house, so I am planning to get out this weekend and buy some new plants, and you know what? I'm going to figure out a way to actually make grocery shopping exciting, okay? I don't know what that's going to be yet, so if you have any ideas let me know, let me know. I want to have a moment of honesty, transparency, with you all. Yesterday I had a deep, ugly cry. Have y'all ever had just a really ugly cry that was necessary? I was feeling overwhelmed, and I made a to-do list--and I do that a lot. If I ever feel overwhelmed with everything in my head, 'cause sometimes a bunch of thoughts get all jumbled and conflicting in my brain and so I have to write it out in my journal or on my whiteboard, and I was overwhelmed because I had so much to do, and I said, "You know what? Make a list, girl. That's what you always do." So I made a list, and I was reading through my list, and then Closer came on my Pandora station, you know, the "Closer to my dreams," that song, and y'all, I just started crying. [laughs] I just started crying because I was looking at the things that I had to do, and it was so impactful and rewarding. The work that I do every day as a coach, as a career coach, as a business coach, you know, as someone that really speaks and focuses on career empowerment, the work that I do is so necessary and vital to so many people, and I just had to take a second to say, "You know what? I am so thankful that these are my worries," you know? Reaching out to a coaching client, writing an article that's due, you know? Pitching myself for, you know, a committee to give back to the community. Recording this podcast episode. Like, these were the types of things that I was worried about just getting done, and I just had a moment of relief, and I feel that I--it's surreal to me, it is. I never thought that, you know, at this young age I would be where I am in life when growing up our worries was about money, you know, and paying the bills, and making, you know--I don't know how much my mother made as a bus driver, but making that money stretch month to month, and I carried a lot of that emotional weight with me into my adulthood, and so I just had a realization yesterday that "You know what? You don't have that worry anymore, and what you're doing is important, and you need to keep going." I remember the little girl that thought "Man, adulthood sucks," you know? [laughs] And I love my mother. I'm thankful for how hard she worked to raise me, but I am just overwhelmed with gratitude, that I get to wake up and do the work that I love every single day. It is not something that I take for granted, ever, and, you know, I am inspired by all of you listening to this podcast and to the Living Corporate team for allowing me to be a voice here. So if you have not, during this quarantine, it's a great time to get still and to think about the things that you are proud of, you know? We all I'm sure have things that we still want to achieve and milestones that we want to hit, but just know that your journey is your journey, and if things don't make sense right now, I promise that you they will. The struggles, the failures, the heartaches, the nos, the decline emails with these job applications, just know that it is a part of your journey, your testimony, your story, and you're going to change lives one day--if you have not already. You may already be changing lives and don't even realize it. So thank you for letting me share that. Again, just this quarantine has allowed me to be more introspective and to really think about what is important to me, and this work that I do is extremely important and necessary. So with that being said--whoo, okay, y'all. I'm trying not to cry. [laughs] But what we're talking about today is interviewing, but not just interviewing. Interviewing with a twist. For my job seekers out there, for my job hunters out there, whatever you may call yourself. I'm noticing that a lot of us get anxiety, especially when it comes to interviewing. Interviewing... I'll be honest. It is painful, right? [laughs] I have had some terrible interviews in my day, no lie, but now I get to coach people all the time on how to have great and wonderful interviews. I want to be honest with you all though. I have seen some of the most talented, the most experienced people not get jobs, not because, you know, they don't meet the qualifications, but because their anxiety takes over and they kill the interview, and I don't mean kill in a good way, okay? So I want to give you all some advice on how to reduce your anxiety when it comes to interviewing. This is important because I know that this is something we all have struggled with before. Interviewing does get easier over time though. I guarantee you that. I want to promise you that. It will get easier over time. It's one of those things that takes preparation, a whole lot of preparation, and practice. I read an article online the other day that said we should be spending four hours preparing for an interview. I know that seems like a lot, y'all, but you gotta think of it like this is your one shot and that's it. There's a show that I binge, and I really enjoy it actually, and it was a show on Netflix with T.I. and Cardi B and Chance. You know, that show where D. Smoke--D. Smoke is a really dope rapper, and he won this competition. It was a rap competition. It's kind of like an American Idol, you know, but specifically for rappers, and so it was really funny watching the first couple of episodes. So if you've watched, like, American Idol, right, it's very similar to that. So I was definitely the type of person to watch American Idol, but I would just watch, like, the first couple of episodes each season just to see the terrible auditions, like, the people that thought they could really sing and they would open their voice and it would--it just sounded awful. Y'all know what I'm talking about. [laughs] This show was dope though 'cause there were some really talented artists, but when it came to them auditioning, they would get into that audition and they would fumble. I'm talking about forgetting lyrics, being off-beat, you know? Some people just were bad, okay? [laughs] Some people were just bad, but I do think that a lot of them were super talented, but they did not perform well because the nerves got to them. So this is what happens when we interview. You can be the most talented. You can be the most ambitious, you know, but if your nerves take over, that could ruin the interview. I do want to give you all some hope here though, because you might be thinking, "Man, I ain't even applying right now because nobody's hiring. And she's talking about an interview." Listen, people reach out to me all of the time on Twitter, on Instagram, even my clients, telling me about interviews that they've landed. Companies are still hiring. I want you all to know that. Do not give up on your job search right now. Don't give up. Companies are still hiring. Companies are still interviewing, and people are out here getting job offers. So if you are in the midst of your job hunt, please continue to keep going. You need to get to that interview, but you need to do two things: you have to practice... you have to practice, [and] you have to prepare. Two totally different things. So let's talk about the difference before I get into some of these tips on reducing anxiety. Preparing for the interview is reading through the job description, seeing what skills they're looking for, seeing what experience these companies are looking for, and making sure you have clear alignment between the work that you've done, the work that you're currently doing, with what they are looking for you to do in that specific role. You have to make sure that you are speaking to your most relevant and transferable experience. So if you are applying to a job in, let's say... hm, let's say you're applying to a job in consulting, and consulting is a lot of, you know, solutions, creating solutions, innovative solutions, being able to identify what your client's problems are, creating these solutions and also delivering these solutions in a way that makes sense to them. So if you have done some type of consulting work in the past, you want to make sure that you have stories you can speak to that specifically relate to how you have helped to solve your client's problem, okay? Does that make sense? You gotta have relevant examples. So, like, let's say that you have an example that is about creating a new communications strategy. If that's not related to that particular role that you are interviewing for, that might not be the best story to go with. So you want to have hero stories. Those hero stories are stories where you have actually came in and you saved the day. Like, there has to be a clear solution at the end of your story that draws back to you creating that specific, tangible, clear result. I have a membership club, Career Chasers Membership Club. I'll link it in the show notes. I will be opening up membership for it soon. We've got a club of over 100 women where each month we have a different theme. This month's theme is on interviewing, and we are talking about the power of, or the importance of, storytelling in an interviewing. I think everyone should really learn the essence of storytelling. It'll make you a great communicator. You want to make sure you have captivating stories that your interviewers walk away with and they remember. You want to be remembered for the right things of course. All right, so storytelling. We're also talking about the importance of executive presence. Someone that has executive presence is Michelle Obama. I loved her Becoming documentary on Netflix. So she is someone that has a lot of executive presence. I mean, when she walks in the room, you just stop and you look because she--you can feel her power, you can feel that just kind of oozing out of her, and so in this membership club, you know, a lot of the ladies were just telling me, like, "I really have a lot of anxiety before I walk into an interview, even if I know I'm a good fit for the job." So I know that this is something that a lot of us deal with, so let's go ahead and hop into these tips. #1: if a recruiter calls you for an interview, give yourself some time. Give yourself some time to prepare. You don't have to drop everything that you're doing and talk to that interviewer right then and there. You don't have to drop what you're doing or reschedule your whole life to talk to the interviewer the next day. My recommendation here is to give yourself 48 hours, 48 hours to prepare, okay? That will give you enough time, hopefully, to go through the job description, pick out your hero stories, research the company, research the interviewers, and, you know, think about the questions that you actually want to ask them. One of my coaching clients during our session a couple weeks ago told me a recruiter called him and said "Hey, I see that you applied for this role. You got a couple minutes to chat?" And he said he was thinking, you know, maybe it'd be--you know, "Sure," she said. "A couple minutes? I'll give her a couple minutes," and he said it turned into a whole 45-minute conversation. It actually turned into an interview, and he said he didn't want to be rude, you know, and he didn't want to lose out on getting this opportunity because she had called him. I don't want you all to put yourself in that type of situation, and so, you know, him and I just kind of talked through "Here's what to do if this happens again." #1: You tell them "Thank you so much for the opportunity. I'm extremely excited. I'm bogged down with work at the moment. You know, I have this really big project that I'm working on." Gas yourself up a little bit when you're talking to a recruiter and ask them, you know, "Is there another time that you and I can connect?" Schedule it in advance. If you can, try not to schedule it for the next day. 9 times out of 10 the interviewer doesn't need to interview you right then and there, and if you're a good candidate for the role, then you showing a commitment to your current job, despite the fact that you are looking for other opportunities, should make a good impression on the recruiter, and it also shows that you are valuable to your organization, because you can't just drop what you're doing and talk to him or her. The work you're doing is too important. So don't think you need to rush into interviewing with these recruiters, because I know how they can be sometimes. I used to be a recruiter, y'all. [laughs] I know how we can be, and I think it's so important to make sure that you are protective of your schedule, especially as we are going through a pandemic. So again, tell 'em "Thank you. I'm working on a really big project at work right now. My team needs me. Can we set up another time to connect so I can dedicate myself fully to our conversation?" Don't think that interviewing sooner or ASAP is going to make you a stronger candidate. What's going to make you a stronger candidate is being prepared. So that's my first tip. #2: Make sure you are reviewing Glassdoor. Glassdoor is life. Glassdoor has company reviews, they have reviews about interviews. If you are not familiar with Glassdoor, that basically is a site where people that have worked at these organizations, where they've interviewed with these companies, are basically going in and submitting their own personal experiences with the company. Whenever I interview coach a client, we always, always always research Glassdoor before an interview coaching session. That is going to give you some real life experience. And I've asked the ladies in my membership club, "Are you all using Glassdoor?" And they said, "Well, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't." So make sure every single time you are using Glassdoor. If you have connections at these companies, you want to connect to them prior to your interview. And again, this is why you need 48 hours. If you can get a little bit more, you know, like, 72, do it. [laughs] You need to have conversations with people that work at the company and ask them for advice on interviewing. So make sure that you are finding some connections, getting some advice, and they can tell you, "Oh, okay. You're interviewing--" Depending on how small the company is, right? If you're interviewing with a large company like a Wells Fargo, a Facebook, Netflix, like, the person that you know or know of that works there, they may not know that specific person that you are interviewing with, but they can at least give you their feedback on their experience interviewing with the company. So make sure that you are taking time to reach out to people, okay? Oh, the show. The Netflix show is Rhythm + Flow. Rhythm + Flow, y'all. It just came to me. So the next tip here is that all interviews are virtual right now. With that being said, you have got to really understand the essence of virtually interviewing well, especially if you're a charmer, you're a people person. You know, when you get in front of someone in person, oh, you can win them over, but virtual interviewing is a whole different game. I actually wrote an article with Money Magazine on how to virtually interview well. I'll drop that in the show notes as well for you guys, so check that out. And I think that virtual interviews are going to be a thing for a while, I really do. So with that being said, you have no reason to not have a cheat sheet. I know they said you're not supposed to cheat, [laughs] like, in college and, you know, high school and all that, but hey, you can have a little, you know, something handy next to you when you're interviewing. What I actually do is whenever I have a media interview, whenever I have a virtual speaking engagement, I have a whiteboard in my office that's actually facing me, and I have an outline of the things that I want to speak to, you know? Just as a reminder. So whatever works for you, you know? Have a cheat sheet there with you. You don't have to, you know, read it verbatim, but just little things to remember to speak to this skill set, this specific hero story. I want to make sure I speak on this job. So make it easier for you to interview well virtually. So then my next tip is if you get to a second round interview, third round interview, you want to always go back to the recruiter, the person that you interviewed with first, and you want to ask them for tips on the next round. If you've made it to the next round, that means that that person that interviewed you hopefully thought really highly of you and they want to see you do well in that process, so don't be afraid to reach back out to them and ask them for advice. You want to make it as conversational as possible, so if you can, ask the interviewer questions. And don't wait until the end to ask questions, ask them questions throughout the interview. For example, if the interviewer asks you why you're interested in the company, share why of course and then ask them, "How has your experience been here working for this company? What do you like most about working here?" You know? Ask questions at the beginning. Have a little small talk at the beginning. If you can, try to find some common ground, you know? Talk about the weather, you know? Again, just figure out ways to let your personality shine through. It is a two-way street, so make sure you're interviewing these companies just as much as they are interviewing you. Make sure that you are taking some time to breath during the interview. If you need to on your resume, cheat sheet or whatever you decide to use, remind yourself to take deep breaths throughout the interview. I actually was reading something online that said, you know, you can sigh, you know, if you need to really catch your breath. Just let out a sigh, and it won't be as obvious as you taking a deep breath. So just remind yourself to breathe. Sometimes I'll write little reminders on sticky notes and put them beside, you know, or hang them up on my monitor here as little reminders that I need to help me during the day. Other things to do is make sure you listen to things that make you feel good before the interview to really get your energy in the right place and in the right space. Listen to a good playlist to boost your confidence. You know, Beyonce, Meg thee Stallion, whatever [laughs] you listen to that makes you feel good, or find funny videos. TikTok is pretty entertaining. Find things to help you with taking the nerves off a little bit. So I wish you all the best of luck with interviewing. Like I said, keep applying, keep looking. These jobs are out here and they need what you have to offer. All right, y'all, and like I said, I'll link some information on the membership club. Stay tuned for details about that, and y'all have a wonderful, wonderful weekend. Peace.

On the sixty-fifth entry of Tristan's Tips, our amazing host Tristan Layfield is back with some career advice geared around taking back control of your job search. Listen to the full tip to hear what Tristan believes to be the key to doing so, and if you’re tired of going through the same old process to get the same results and you want a cohesive and coherent job search strategy that will guarantee you 3x more interviews, apply for a suitability call using the link in the show notes!Interested in applying for a suitability call? Find out more by clicking below:https://bit.ly/35WCQSVConnect with Tristan on LinkedIn, IG, FB, and Twitter.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTTristan: What's going on, Living Corporate?! It's Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting, and I'm back to bring you another career tip. This week I want to talk to you about taking back control of your job search.With the average person changing jobs nearly 12 times over the course of their career, job hunting is a survival skill. Unfortunately, many of us were never taught how to search for a job appropriately, especially Black and Brown people. When I started my career I had no clue what I was doing. I knew I needed a resume and to apply for jobs but I honestly had no idea how to go after the roles I wanted. I knew I had the skills, I knew I could do the job, but I didn’t know how to adequately convey that in my resume, while networking, or during my interviews.I would apply for TONS of jobs, sometimes multiple jobs at the same company. I would sit and I would wait to hear back, but you and I both know how that worked out. Most of them, beyond the confirmation that I applied, never even responded. My job search used to drag on for months and eventually I would get desperate… which is a bad thing because employers can smell that and they prey on it.There was a point where I took a job in retail as a temporary solution while I was searching for another job. 3 months passed, then 6 months passed, next thing I know I looked up and it had been a year I was still in that job and had only gone on a handful of interviews for jobs I was in no way, shape, or form interested in. I got tired of waiting for these employers and letting fate decide my future so I decided that it was time to take matters into my own hands.I learned that I needed to get really clear on the type of role I wanted. This allowed me to understand the transferrable skills and the value I could bring to the position. Then I could convey that in a results-driven resume and in my optimized LinkedIn profile and utilize both of those to build a network of career boosters. That, my friend, is the key. Your network is going to help you get to where you’re trying to go. 80% of recruiters and hiring managers agree that a referral is the best way to find a qualified candidate. So you want to build a network of career boosters who are going to help you get to that next step and potentially even give you the referral that you need to get the role that you want. If you’re tired of doing the same process to get the same results and you want a cohesive and coherent job search strategy that will guarantee you 3x more interviews, I suggest you apply for a suitability call using the link in the show notes so we can talk about where your job search process currently is and where we can take it to.This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook @LayfieldResume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield, on LinkedIn.

Zach has the honor of speaking to Debra Gore-Mann, president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, about tackling systemic equity. She graciously shares her unique career journey with us and talks a bit about what it looks like to manage the wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities she engages with in an effort to shift and create systemic change. Check out the show notes to connect with Debra and for more information on The Greenlining Institute!Connect with Debra on LinkedIn and Instagram.Interested in learning more about The Greenlining Institute? Check out their website.They're also on social media - follow them on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.Read Debra's piece mentioned in the episode by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Man, really exciting times. I mean, exciting is a word for it, right? Like, got some concerns with the coronavirus, people working from home, new ways of working impacting marginalized folks in different ways, so definitely expect for our content to shift a little bit. So we're talking about and sharing tips on working from home and how to work from home, dealing with managers, leading teams if you're working from home and also dealing with managers who maybe have never had to manage you as you work from home. But all of that to say we continue to roll with the punches, y'all, and look, it's Tuesday. We're having another conversation, real talk in a corporate world. We do this, right? Like, we sit down with black and brown entrepreneurs, executives, CEOs--who are also executives, but you know what I mean--advocates, allies, public servants, elected officials, and look, today is no different. Like, we have a great guest, Debra Gore-Mann. Debra is the president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Whoo, justice. That's a heavy word in these diversity & inclusion streets, and here they are, and here we go. Debra, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you doing?Debra: Hi, Zach. Thanks so much for inviting me. I too am sitting in, you know, troubling times in that I am a decision maker on whether to work from home or whether to continue to bring folks into work, so I hear you on your opening.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to your point about being a decision maker, I'd love to talk about your journey, right? Like, you've held a variety of different roles, from investment banking to being in athletics to being a chief development officer. Like, I'd love to hear more about your path. Like, as Living Corporate, and I think as we all continue to have these conversations, we've been blessed to talk to people with really unique journeys, right, and it seems as if honestly the people that are making the most impact have some of the most, initially on the outset, just curious paths to getting there. I'd love to hear more about just your story.Debra: Absolutely, and I think my journey is--you know, I used to think that is that it was unique, but the more that I've shared it the more I've realized that there were just some pivotal moments that happened, that happened to me. So in my journey, you know, I'm biracial. My mother is Japanese and my father is black, and he was in the military. And I know for some folks when you say "the military" it means--you know, it's a significant sort of life experience to have a parent who was in the military. So he meets my mother in Japan, and so, you know, she comes to the United States. So she was an immigrant, so I kind of speak that space. And our house was very much a bicultural home. We ate as much Japanese food as we ate soul food. So it was nothing for us to have sushi and collard greens.Zach: Y'all mixed it--y'all mixed it together?Debra: Yeah, totally. My mom just, like, just did both, just did both. Zach: Word? Hm.Debra: But the one thing that was sort of emphasized in our house was education, and equally from my father's side, you know, black household, as the Asian side. I did have a bit of a tiger mom, so people might know what that means, [laughs] you know? And education was important, and so, you know, really kind of overachieved in that space, and here was one of these critical, pivotal moments, right? So finishing high school I'm literally the number two in my class--I think they call it the salutorian--my best friend was the number three person in the class, and I'm going to apply for colleges, and the story she gets--and she's German but white, and the story I get when we compare notes are completely different. I'm told to go to a community college. My family can't afford to send me to college, but this would be a good stepping stone. I mean, it was a very positive conversation, and then I compared with my friend Lilly and she's like, "She told me that I should apply to some of the best schools on the West Coast," but in particular, 'cause I'm originally from Seattle-Tacoma, the University of Washington or the University of Oregon. Totally different story. And so, you know, we're sort of going, "Yeah, this is because you're black." [laughs] And I'm like, "Yeah, it is," but, you know, I didn't know. I hadn't gone to college. My sister--I had an older sister, and she went because, through the PSATs, somebody offered her a full scholarship, so I thought that's how it happened. Well, lo and behold, her brother had gone to MIT. He comes home during that winter break and he says, "Oh, no, you guys--you're #2? You're #3 in the class? You guys are applying to ivy leagues." And we're like, "What's an ivy league school?" 'Cause our counselor didn't tell us anything like that. And so I end up applying to Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Cal Tech, the University of Michigan, right? Sort of high technical schools, high academic schools. She applies to Yale, Harvard. We still apply to our local school, the University of Washington. I also applied basketball, so that's gonna come in here. So I had some athletic scholarships as well, and ended up we got into I want to say 9 out of 10 of the schools we applied to. She ends up going to Yale and I end up going to Stanford, and that in and of itself--so if you're in an Asian household, you know, for the daughters to leave the home is sort of "bad daughter, disobedient," so my mother was like, "You're not--" She doesn't know Stanford from anything else. She's like, "You're not going to California? You're a bad daughter." So my first courageous step was to say, "I'm gonna go to this school. It's in California," because of my good friend's brother who was like, "This is one of the top schools in the country. You need to go." So that's my first sort of, you know, accidental but intentional advice that I got, and then, you know, going to Stanford really kind of changed my life from there, opened up a whole new dialogue, really started to understand my biracialness. Now we have a term, intersectionality. At the time intersectionality was not necessarily as bright and clear, but I really started to understand that and, you know, had an engineering degree. I worked at a tech company, a material science tech company, when I graduated, then I went back to graduate school--back to Stanford--and got my MBA, and at that time I gotta be honest, you know, I was really motivated by money. We were a lower middle-class. You know, my dad was in the military. My mother worked as a domestic housekeeper, so I was cleaning houses, helping her clean houses from a very early age, so I can clean a mean bathroom now to this day. [laughs] Zach: To this day. [laughs]Debra: To this day, you know? You don't want me to come visit your house.Zach: [laughs] I might. [laughs]Debra: "I need to clean this bathroom!" [laughs] And so it was really kind of important for me to sort of maximize my value, so I went to Wall Street, you know? I went to work at an investment bank, and even realized--well, let me take a step back. Another circumstance that happened, when I went to graduate school, I ended up being the only black female in that class. And this is, you know, 1987. But what happened--and I went to admissions and I was like, "How can I be the only black woman in my class?" There was about 25 to 28 of us who had applied, but we all applied at very competitive--so Wharton, Harvard, you know, Princeton. You know, top business schools. Wharton, Northwestern, and the rest, the other 24, went to all the other schools. I was the only one that year that picked Stanford. [laughs] So here I'm in a class, you know, where I'm the only sort of black female voice, and so in, like, every class it's like, "Well, what does Debbie think?" Zach: You become the representative.Debra: I'm the representative, I'm, like, the sole representative, but I'm still identifying as biracial. I'm like, "Why don't y'all care about my Japanese lineage?" But in any case, right, so I land squarely in that, and what really helped me navigate that was that I played basketball, and we would have these pickup games, and I would, you know, be ballin' with the rest of the white guys who are now, you know, running companies, running venture capital, but sports was my translator and my equalizer, and so I've always very much leaned into sports vernacular and ability, and I think that has served me well, frankly, in my corporate leadership and everything, to be able to talk sports--and I mean, like, really talk sports--has really helped.Zach: And what position did you play? Not to cut you off.Debra: I was a point guard. I was a point guard.Zach: Okay, so now how would you characterize your game? Were you, like, a combo? Or were you, like, a facilitator?Debra: Yeah. So I was definitely a floor general. I didn't shoot as much, but, you know, a lot of assists, played all 40 minutes, you know? Started as a freshman, all four years, last two years team captain, so I think the leadership stuff kind of developed there. Played a lot with men. I think that's a common thread with women who really sort of want to elevate their game, you know, playing against people who are bigger, quicker, and stronger really gets your game up there. But, you know, so I'll make analogies--I was actually talking to a coalition person, and, you know, they have a very strong coalition, and I said, "Well, you know, here's my analogy. I'm like Kevin Durant coming to the Warriors after you guys won a couple." [both laugh] And that frames it, right? Like, "Oh, yeah. We're balling," but look, I've got some skills, and I can come and, please, let's just try to win some more championships. So sometimes those sports analogies, like, you know, people are like, "Oh, I get what you're talking about."Zach: They put it together, yeah.Debra: Yeah, and then you also don't sound--you know, it's pretty arrogant to say, like, "I'm Kevin Durant." Like, I'm not Kevin Durant, but people understand that there's a skill set coming into the game. And so I tend to do that. So anyways, I go to Wall Street, and that was yet another environment where I'm, you know, very few--let's see, in that cohort I was the only African-American in that cohort, and then Wall Street is, you know, definitely--I always tell people "Until you make some money, you can walk away from money," so I was able to, you know, buy a home, help my family. You know, my father had passed, so I was able to help my mom with her house. I had a portfolio of investments and could, you know, really speak money and capital and understanding that, but, you know, after I made some money I was like, "Wow, this is not very fulfilling. This is "What have you done for me lately? What's your last transaction?"" And, you know, you're constantly just pushing the rock up the hill. So at that point then I stayed in the private sector and I used my engineering degree with my finance, and in the Bay Area there's a company called Bechtel, who is a large engineering infrastructure company, family-owned, and they have an in-house boutique financial arm, and because I had engineering and I had finance I went to work for that in-house boutique bank, and the beauty of that is it's a global company, so I had a passport and for, you know, five years I worked out of the country. China was opening up in some of their enterprise zones a lot in Latin America, South America, and did these large, large structured finance in foreign currency. So good multi-tasking, you know? The language, the currency. It was sort of complicated transactions, and I loved that work. Like, loved, loved, loved that work, and then the big pivot was I got married and I had a child.Zach: Congratulations, congratulations.Debra: And for women that's a big deal. Even for me at the time, you know, I had worked on a big, multi-billion dollar deal in Mexico, and they weren't gonna let me have maternity leave. They didn't have maternity leave actually. So we crafted--you know, I had accelerated some deals that I had done, so I killed myself working 100 hours so that I could take three to four months off. There wasn't--so when people talk about maternity leave and FMLA, I was like, "Yes! Where do I sign up?" This is some of the policy work, right, that now I'm all in because I lived through a time when women didn't have that. No matter how big my deal was, you know? I could be straight ballin' and it's like, "There's no maternity leave." And the big fear was that I wasn't gonna come back to work, that I was gonna love motherhood, and I was like, "Maybe." Like, I didn't know. I hadn't had a child. So sure enough I get my four months off and really missed working, so to the women who listen to your podcast, you know, I think that will resonate. It's like either, you know, the maternal part is like, "Oh, I love being at home," and I loved that too, but I really had this desire to keep working, and for me at that time then I couldn't just get on an airplane, be gone two or three weeks, 'cause I'd come back and my daughter was, you know, talking or rolling over. I was like, "No, no, no." So I always--I don't know how much space or people have talked to you about, you know, "Your network is your net worth," so I leaned into my network and I said, "Look, y'all. I need a job in the United States. Let's keep it simple, but if it could be in California all the better," and different kinds of, you know, opportunities came in, and it was, you know, someone in my network that said, "Hey, you went to Stanford twice, and the athletic department's looking for a CFO," and I had done enough structured deals, right, that we had some development companies and I had served as the financial officers in some devcos, so, you know, I said, "Okay, let me interview." Okay, so you'll love this, Zach. So I go into this interview. The athletic director was Ted Leland, who was probably one of the top five athletic directors in the country. The faculty athletic rep was Jerry Porras, and he had co-written the book "Built to Last," which was a best seller, with Jim Collins, who then wrote "Good to Great." He's the faculty athletic rep, and then the provost is this--you know, this black professor who's up and coming named Condy Rice.Zach: What?Debra: So I'm interviewing--at the time though... come on, now, we're in the '90s. At the time I'm like, "Okay, athletic director, sports, small field," right? I had been doing global deals. My deals were in the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times. I'm like, "[?] He's an athletic director." Now, Jerry Porras, Jerry Porras I'm like, "Okay, you're kinda ballin'. You're writing best sellers. You're Latin. First of all, you're a Latino male who's a tenured professor at Stanford." So I got a white male who went to community college and now is the athletic director at Stanford. I have a Latino male and then this African-American professor, Russian studies. I was like, "Oh." So, you know, think about the diversity of that right there. Think of the diversity. Black woman, Latino male, white man, and they are gonna be the nucleus. So they say--you know, I talk the talk about "Okay, this is how I would do the athletic department as the CFO and how I'd run it," and they were like, "This is great. We'd like to offer you the job." And I was like, "Great. What's the pay?" It was, like, a 50% pay cut, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, no." Remember, even when I was an undergrad I was like, "Yeah, I gotta make some money, and I'm taking care of my family," and then at this point I'm now sandwiched. I'm taking care of both, right, my own family and then my mother's. So we're kind of that sandwiched generation. So I'm like, "Thank you so much. Here's my dilemma: I can't take the pay cut. It's too much of a pay cut," and I thought it was done, right? So I'm, like, moving on. I'm interviewing other places. I almost went into consulting. I get a call back from Ted that says, "We want you to interview one more person," and I was like, "But I--" And he said, "No, just go to one more interview," and I end up interviewing with the vice president of finance, and they're thinking that--the athletic department reported to the position in the finance office, and so he interviews me and he says, "Look, I'm gonna give you this job and this job," so when I joined Stanford I held the position in the athletic department and then I held a position in the University, which allowed them to basically double my salary and keep me whole. So I was just like, "Wow," you know? So another pivotal kind of--and that's the transition. Like, the transition--I think a lot of people might have to take a pay cut or whatever, but I kind of feel like, "Well, my tool box was pretty robust. I could speak the sports language. I had been speaking the sports language through my whole financial--" So when it came to interviewing in this completely different industry, I was able to translate and transfer those skills, and then, you know, got into--so that's my pivot into college sports and my real first exposure into sort of diversity of thought, you know, equity, what does that look like for women of color. There was a real commitment to Title IX. Stanford was one of the first schools--and I was that first generation that got the title. Literally those scholarships came out in '81, so I'm dating myself now, and I was the first generation to get Title IX scholarship, a full scholarship. So I've been in this space, right? I've been in this equity, justice, racial, just living it, and so, you know, just fast forward. I did, you know, sort of run the gamut in athletics, and when this opportunity at The Greenlining Institute opened up, it is the single place where I have been able to unapologetically, openly talk about racial equity in all forms, and my work is to remove those barriers and to provide economic opportunity. So I'm still true to my message of "Okay, we gotta develop personal wealth, community wealth, and then remove the racial barriers," and it's full-stop, you know, redlining, community development, all of the things that are--you know, affordable housing, health care, all of the intersections now, and I just do it full-throated. So there I go. There it is, Zach. There's the journey. [both laugh]Zach: That's incredible, and you know what's interesting? 'Cause, you know, you talked about dating yourself, but what I hear in that though is the fact that you've really lived this life and you're doing this work, like, beyond the buzzwords of today, right? So, you know, today when we talk about diversity and inclusion or we talk about equity in a corporate context, you know, we don't really mean making people whole, driving for just--like, creating paths to justice or, like, systemic change, right? Like, we're not really talking about that. Like, not really, not in the average diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. We're typically talking about some type of training and some communications, and so what I'm really excited about as we kind of get into this interview is, like, more about the work and where you see The Greenlining Institute going. And to that end, in a piece that you wrote for The Greenlining Institute announcing your arrival to the organization you said--a portion of what you wrote, I'm gonna read it here, quote "People would argue that a focus on the building of a nation through a specific lens of color and race only hinders progress. They are the people who often claim to not see race and who replaced the slogan "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter." I'm not one of those people." So let me keep it 100 with you. When I read this, right--and I recognize you work for The Greenlining Institute, and I recognize that, you know, you've been in places where you've practically drove and you've strived for creating equity for your constituents or stakeholders or whoever the people that you're serving are. I'm gonna still say I still don't see a lot of black executives who boldly engage topics of race, like, be it from a position of self-preservation or a lack of personal range, but, you know, I think about Howard Bryant of ESPN and NPR. He was on the show a while back, and he said "To advocate for black people is to put your whole career in jeopardy," and so I'm just really curious, like, when did you make a decision to not only discuss black equity in these, like, theoretical frames, but leverage your own capital and labor to help solve for it and have, you know, in your career, have you had colleagues discourage you from pursuing this type of work?Debra: So I totally understand what Howard Bryant is saying when he says "Black people have to put their career in jeopardy." No doubt, right? It's the judgment against Michael Jordan that he didn't know political advocacy, but now, you know, a generation later, like, it's fine for LeBron James to do it actually, and, you know, even Steph Curry or Steve Kerr. I mean, they're openly in this space now. So I think it is the times that you live in that affect it. I constantly had people who discouraged me if I wanted to have my career ascend or be eligible for large bonuses. There was a bit of impostor syndrome that, you know, you had to perpetrate. So the people usually who were discouraging of speaking boldly into race and gender and the intersectionality that I survive in were mostly white people, right? And so they were making it clear to me of the risks. Like, "You could do it, Debbie. You can talk about this, you can talk about that, but I'm just gonna tell you what may be the consequences of it." So I think there is some truth for sure to what Howard Bryant is saying. The flip side is so when do you have the courage then to go ahead and put my career on the line? Like, you know, "I don't give an F. Here we go." [both laugh] And this is what's gonna just trip you out, Zach. So the moments that I've been able to do that most boldly was when I was encouraged and had the support of mentors who, you know, the Condy Rices or the Ted Lelands or, you know, I could name two or three people who were mentors who said, "Look, go ahead, speak your truth, and I got your back on this one." So for example, when I was at Stanford--I had been there maybe four or five years, you know, and I had done the first big Nike deal--they had never done a big Nike deal--and got one of the largest campus deals ever. Pepsi, at that time the soda wars were happening in your facility, so we negotiated that. I had negotiated two very high profile coaches contracts. So my credibility on campus was pretty legit, and this new dean of the medical school really wanted to have the orthopedics department sort of be a partner with the athletic department, because think about it. The athletes, you know, at that time, Tiger Woods, John Elway. Like, we had some--and they still have some very high profile athletes there. So I had met with the chief of orthopedics and I was like, "Oh, it was a great meeting." Very white male, very, very white. So I'm code-switching and I'm doing all the things that I do to make sure that he's comfortable, and after that meeting he goes back to the dean and says, you know, "I think she's gonna be a problem," or something to that affect. So then two of our medical doctors who had been doing all of our surgeries--knees, shoulder, elbows--came back, and one who I trusted--we had a very... obviously if you're dealing with young people's bodies and those families, so I tended to be the person who talked to the family and said, "Hey, this is our expert." He came to me and he told me. He said, "So this dean, they have some concerns about the relationship," and I said, "This isn't about the relationship. This is about me. This is this white guy who's not comfortable," and I sat there and I was fuming, and I went to the athletic director and I went to the faculty athletic rep and they were like, "Oh, no. We're going all in," right? But they had to--I probably would not have had I not had their voices behind me, and so we did. We met with the dean, and I asked some very, you know, pointed questions. You know, "Where was this concern coming from?" You know, I had the faith of the coaches, the head coaches, and the faculty athletic rep and, you know, X, Y, and Z, and where was this voice coming from? And he was just sort of, "Well, I kind of heard you--" "Did I say that?" "No, but, you know, it was--" And so I was just like, "I think this is racial. I think it's both racial and gender." Men with influence, this is important to your career that you sign this athletic department and, you know, it was immediately--you know, he was apologetic, and "That's not what I meant," and I was like, "You know, that's fine. I'm just telling you how you're presenting yourself and what that means to me and my career." But, you know, I don't know that I would have stepped out on that branch on my own, you know? I think if I had just walked that my career might have been at risk, but knowing that I had, you know, two very senior people say, "We got you on this," was important, was important. And so the advice that I do tend to give now is that, you know, everybody, a young professional, a mid-year professional, I think everybody should have an advisory council where you have somewhere between three and five people that you have literally asked to be a mentor or who has some sort of credibility and clout who can advise you on when to make these very hard decisions. I've had an advisory council ever since, you know, and it's changed depending on the industry that I'm in--and I tend to have three. I used to have five. And you want an odd number in case there's a tie, you know? [laughs] If you have one say yes and the other say no, you need that third one to say yes or no to break the tie. But then that'll help you temper, you know, your career advice with the steps you need to take when you have to fight the good fight. And I know now that--you know, I don't know where he is in his career, but I guarantee you he will never--he'll think twice, you know, about "Oh, am I doing this because I have some gender bias? Because I have some racial bias?" Like, he had been comfortable in that space and he had done his thing, and he probably had run over a bunch of black people, and he finally ran into somebody who said, "This ain't right," and then had other people sit in the room with me and say, "You're not right," you know? So those moments are, you know, sort of life-changing, but they're done with courage for sure. My voice was quivering. My knees were shaking. But I was like, "I'm going all in. I'm going all in on this one."Zach: And I bet you felt all the better for it after the conversation too.Debra: Oh, absolutely, yeah, and it made the next conversation easier, you know? Once you do it you realize that the house didn't fall in, [laughs] or that your career didn't implode. Now, you know, had it imploded maybe I'd have a different [?], but then, you know, now I'm able to sit in a room and say, "Well, you know, are you sure that's what you mean? You know, I kind of hear--" and "I feel like you have some bias here," and, you know, now I'm that voice for the whole community. I'm like, "Look, you are racial washing. You are equity washing right now, people of color and affordable housing. This is about segregation. Let's call it what it is. They don't want to put affordable housing on [?] in Lafayette a lot of white people live there and they want us living in segregated communities. Come on." So I can just speak it now and say, you know, to policy makers or banks or corporations or city hall, say, "Look, I disaggregated this. We have disaggregated this. Here is the bias that still lives. What are you gonna do?" And "Here's how we're gonna help you do it." So we have a whole framework that we say, "Okay, this is how you dismantle it, and this is how we're gonna build it back up."Zach: I think that work--it's just the work itself is so incredible, because, you know, even if you just look, like, from a historical perspective, right? So like, what, black folks have had the same rights on paper for, like, 54, 56 years, and so I think about the fact that 1. that's not even a whole lifetime, right, but then on top of that, like, because of that fact, Gen X is, like, the first generation of people who were born into this country with all of their rights, and really even millennials are--still today, like, a lot of these people, myself included, are first-generation corporate professionals, and I've thought about that side a lot. Like, the fact that a lot of black and brown folks, this is their first time really even being in these spaces, but what I haven't thought about until recently, Debra, is that for white people, this is their first time dealing with black people in these spaces, and when they go home and they talk to their colleagues or their older mentors, they don't really--I mean, they're not going to get a perspective that isn't within a context that is formalized anti-blackness, right? So you think about, like, let's just say if I wasn't a first-generation professional. I talked to my uncle. He can give me context on just working in majority-white spaces, he could do that, but if I was white and I'm dealing with you in this space and I go and talk to my uncle, he's not gonna--he very well likely is not gonna have anything to teach me or tell me about, like "Oh, well, this is how you need to be self-aware, and this is how these cultures work," you know? So I find that really curious, and you kind of--you answered one of my questions, but I want to ask this one though, 'cause you kind of touched on it a little bit. What does it look like, right, to build relationships across the various types of circles that you have to engage in? I think about the fact that when you're talking about policy and you're talking about shifting and creating systemic change, like, you have--I would imagine there's some grassroots folks that you have to engage and endear, but then there's also corporate entities who influence the actual policies, right? Like, I would imagine you're talking to some billionaires, but then you're also having conversations with activists, and you're also talking to folks in the government. Like, what does it look like to manage that wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities? Like, how does that practically show up?Debra: Hm. I do think there has to be this consistency in philosophy. Like, you have to really be grounded in your values, because once people start challenging you, right--so if you truly believe that there's systemic racism, and not just in the policy but in the cultural diatribe of "Pull yourself up from the bootstraps. Poor people are poor because they're lazy." Like, that's a whole capitalistic trope, and if you want to really dismantle the conversation, then you have to have clarity that that is what's happening, because it is so easy to get on the "You can make money if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." You know, the Christian, Protestant work ethic. Look, that is a construct to keep the segregation as status quo. So when you're, you know, either the corporate office or even the Capitol, you start to have this conversation about "Where are your values?" So if a person is leading with "I believe you can pull yourself up from the bootstraps," I know that they have completely--they have such a long way to go before they can even have a conversation about racial equity. Like, that foundational conversation, so I start there. I start there. So, you know, let's say--even now. So if you're a digital [?] and you've been sort of, you know, raised that you probably, you know, think "Okay, I have all these online tools, and [?] are non-biased." Okay, let's just disaggregate that. Right now there's more loans that are--let's just say your car loan, right, or your home loan, it used to be about 4-5% done online. It's darn near 35% online now. And that information shows that there is so much racial bias. Black and brown people pay 100 to 200 [?] points more. Their loan interests are higher. So the algorithm, which has been written by white men who are in that space, that algorithm has bias. "No, it's neutral." "No, it's based on zip code. It's based on spending habits. It's based on--" You know, 'cause now they have all this big data tracking you. All of that is racially biased because it's founded in this language of "If you work hard and you get educated, then you deserve it."Zach: Yeah, this idea of meritocracy.Debra: And that is the racial construct. So we are now having this conversation about "Okay, what does wealth mean?" Okay, wealth. You know, mostly we think, "What's in my bank account? I have a house." Wealth is "I have the freedom to take a vacation. I have the ability to take a week off if my family is sick. I have the ability to cover a bill if it's, you know, a health bill, an automobile breakdown or a home thing." Like, that is wealth. So if you say--and people say, "Oh, yeah. Everybody should have the right to do that." "You should have the right to be able to visit family," or "You should have the right to be able--" Okay, so then you say "What does that policy look like to allow us to do that?" So I don't really actually have to talk race. I don't. I need to talk about a culture, a narrative. Like, we have to take command of a narrative, which is coming. This whole political race, presidential race, pivoted on South Carolina and black folk voting. Like, change the landscape. And for the first time, you know, Ta-Nehisi Coates testified with Danny Glover around reparations. Like, people are willing to say, "Wait, what is this?" And we have video now of police abuse, you know, and we're unpacking the criminal justice system. Like, there's an opportunity for us to walk into this space, which at the end of the day will affect your corporate life and will allow you to show up authentically, and all the data shows that a business decision made with diverse voices in the room, diverse ethnicities in the room, are going to get you better business decisions. So I can even talk to you on--if you just want to talk pure capitalism, like, "Hey, this system that, you know, your white boys built is breaking down, so you at least gotta admit you gotta consider another system." [laughs] Like, you gotta figure out, just even from an economic basis, that what we have now is not going to persist. It's just--it's not. It's collapsing on itself, and now, you know, we have--and it might happen in a generation, that we're going to create a new landscape of what wealth and economic opportunity looks like.Zach: I mean... you know, typically we do sound effects during the show. Like, right here I just want to drop, like, a Flex bomb. Boooooom. Sound Man, he's gonna put it in this. Put it in right here. Boom. I mean, it's just incredible. You're absolutely right, and I'm really curious, like, kind of continuing along the last part that you said, you know, in January you wrote something called "The Many Reasons to Impeach Trump," right?Debra: The many. [laughs] Not the three they landed on.Zach: Yeah. Not the couple. Not the few. The many. [laughs] And you wrote, "For communities of color, Trump has long since violated our public trust, and we know that a multitude of possible articles were excluded." So, you know, we're in an election year, right? Like, if Trump is elected for a second term, how do you anticipate Trump's policies practically impacting the efforts of The Greenlining Institute's goals? Debra: Actually, the Trump administration has emboldened the political conversation. We are in more demand now because of the contrast. Before there wasn't as much contrast. It was everybody was kind of in the grey. We were kind of all getting along.Zach: We got a black president. There's no more racism.Debra: Right. You know, we had arrived, and now the contrast is so stark that, you know, everybody kind of knows "This doesn't feel right." And so it's like, "So what does right feel like?" And we feel like we need to occupy that space of "Okay, here is what, you know, racial equality looks like. Here is what right feels like, and let's redefine--" He's offering you a model. This is what the model looks like. "I talk crazy. I put down whoever I feel like putting down. It always is racialized. I'm a model. Look at me. I'm an economic model." And understand, it is an economic model. He does not stand on any values. He does not stand on any religious--it's, like, transactional. "Here's how much." "I just got a couple billion dollars from Israel. I just got a billion here, a billion there." That's the model. So what do you offer in contrast to that economic model, right? And so I get that, okay, there's this hardcore 38, 40% that's like, "Yes, I believe that economic model," and then there's the "Okay, we want to be a kinder, gentler kind of space," that I feel like Biden's kind of walking into, but at some point you're gonna have to have a conversation about what is that? What is wealth? What is community wealth? What does economic wealth look like? 'Cause he's offering you a model, you know, and it just happens to be this very racialized model, but man, we're comfortable with that. Let me just say we're comfortable with that racialized model, and it's just--Zach: And we have been, right?Debra: Yeah, and in the absence of it I'm scared. It's like, "Wait, but I understand that one. I can be a poor white--"Zach: "I get this though."Debra: Yeah. "I'm a poor white person and I'm voting against my own interests because I believe if I pull myself up by the bootstraps," and I'm like, "No. You've been disenfranchised."Zach: For multiple generations.Debra: And you're still voting for your guy. So I think that, you know, the contrast is what's allowing our work to actually, like, accelerate. We have so much work that we cannot even get to. Like, right before this meeting we were triaging which--and I was working with my health equity person--which health equity bills could we support with our limited amount of energy and resources that we have? Because we are prioritizing how much work there is to do. There is just so much work to do, yeah. So in terms of framing what happens to our goals, I think, you know, we stay very--we're okay, we're solid in our goals. The work has just been multiplied and amplified.Zach: That's a blessing. And, you know, what I'm hearing also--and something that we don't discuss enough, again, when we talk about, like, really creating and driving for equity, we're talking about, like, really shifting and engaging systems. Like, a lot of times, like, these conversations, they start and stop at individuals, and, like, then we get lost in, like, the distraction of intentions. It's like, "Okay," and, you know, if bias are conscious or unconscious. We don't talk about impact. We don't talk about, again, like, the models by which these things are really, like, placed in, and how they drive inequity and disenfranchisement, so that's incredible. We're coming up close to the end of the interview. I want to give you a little bit of space to talk a little bit more about The Greenlining Institute, what you're excited about over the next, like, you know, let's say over the next year, and then I'd like to give you some space to just, like, any shout-outs or parting words you got for us.Debra: Oh, okay. [laughs] So the next year there is a deep conversation happening nationally about readdressing segregation, that if we continue to live in segregated communities in that, you know, what do they say, on any given Sunday we're the most segregated country in the world. There's a deep conversation about that and about community wealth, and I'm seeing both in the academy, where, you know, a lot of research is being done, to the policy makers, to bankers. There's a conversation about now how do we really address supportability, homelessness, because they're all intertwined. Like, you can't have a conversation about affordable housing without talking about health equities and social determinants of health, and you can't talk about that without talking about access to broadband, technology, that's moving so quickly, but almost everything--I don't know about you, but I don't know the last time I went to a bank. I do it all online.Zach: My bank is on my phone, yeah, and just to that point, like, I think about--so I have the privilege of having a decent-paying job, right, so I don't have issues with, like, using my data. I have unlimited data. I don't have issues with my Wi-Fi most of the time, and if I do have issues, then I have the privilege of picking up a phone, demanding someone come and fix this so I can get back to going and doing it. [laughs] But when you talk about this next generation of work, and, like, we talk about the workforce of the future and we talk about this digital age, there continues to be studies showing that black and brown communities, economically-distressed communities, are gonna be left out of this age because we don't have the access to enter, right?Debra: Yeah. So we have technology equity in our shop, and one of our biggest campaigns right now is Broadband for All, and then another big pillar for us is algorithm bias, and that cuts across not just financial institutions but medical bias in the algorithms that are, you know, based on research on cancer. Well, guess what that research was done around. You know, middle-class white families. So, you know, the next 12 months, I think this conversation is going to start to coalesce. There are going to be some common themes on how we can change the narrative on an economic sort of wealth, redefinition of wealth. I think that's really coming in the short term. I think the presidential outcome in November will also lay the ground for sort of that next level of work that's happening. So, you know, 12 months, we're running hard for sure, grinding, and then we'll see if, Heaven forbid, Trump gets reelected or not, because that will require some activism. I think we are all--we're gonna have to be that generation that really, you know, takes to the streets, you know, walks on the Capitol, boycotts, because if nothing else, you know, you can imagine if we all decided one day to pull our money out of the banks... Zach: Whoo...Debra: That's trillions of dollars. That's trillions of dollars.Zach: Yeah.Debra: Yeah, and so we might have--the activism may have to become real in the next 12 to 18 months if Trump is reelected. If not, I do think that the conversation, there's gonna be some--there will still be a conversation about "Okay, what does affordability look like?" 'Cause the homelessness is not going away. You know, we're one of the wealthiest states and we are so troubled by it. So I think that that conversation will continue, and we might as well grab hold of what we think wealth looks like. And like I said, it's the freedom to do a lot of things that you otherwise couldn't do. Call up your cable man or your repair man. [laughs] Yeah, and I actually think that's gonna then build community, right, in that if I know my mom is taken care of or my dad can retire comfortably, or my daughter, who does not have the American dream of buying a house--like, that's not... she's like, "What?"Zach: Definitely not in California. No way.Debra: Well, it's not even a part of the dream, right? She's more aspirational. "Maybe starting my own company or, you know, traveling globally." And I was like, "Wow," because that reality is not there for her. So to buy a home, it's not aspirational because it's not achievable.Zach: Well, and when you think about, like--I 100% hear you. The reason why I reacted when you said pull out the money from the banks was like, you know, this is not, like, "It's a Wonderful Life," right? Like, you know, nobody's gonna be like, "Well, your money's at Ted's house, at Bill's house." Like, no. The money--if that was the type of protest, if that happened, like, oh, my gosh. I mean, we gotta have you back on and just talk about, like, even the concept of protest, because--anyway, this has been a profound conversation, Debra. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having intentional, authentic, transparent conversations every day. Again, I really want to emphasize, what I really enjoyed about this conversation and what I really hope our listeners are grasping and understanding is that shifting and creating equity and really having authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion has to involve engaging and tackling systems, y'all. If we're not talking about engaging systems, we're not doing the work. Right? So I know a lot of us, there are people who listen to this show who are, like, diversity, equity and inclusion consultants, and there are people who listen in who are trying to figure out and trying to get the secret sauce on, like, this next generation, the workforce of the future. Like, y'all, if we're not willing to tackle and dismantle, or rebuild and, like, really think about these systems that are in play, we're not making change, y'all. Look, you can check us out on social media. @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then look, we're all over Al Gore's internet, right? For those of us who are blessed to have digital access, you just type in Living Corporate on Google and we'll pop up, but we have all of the different domains, okay? So let me just rattle them off real fast, okay? You've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, okay, but we have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, all right? Now, we're all over the place, and again, we're coming at y'all every week with this stuff. Today was a super dope conversation with the new CEO, Debra Gore-Mann, of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Make sure y'all check out the information in the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

On the twelfth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with OJ Gordon about his entering the real estate industry from the insurance industry and the unique role he's taking on in doing so. OJ also suggests that people interested in getting started or learning more about the industry look into getting involved with the local chapter of their National Real Estate Investors Association (REIA). Check out the show notes to find out more!Click here to find your local National REIA chapter.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all. So look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, OJ. Thank you so much for joining me today.OJ: Hey, thank you for having me. Glad to be here.Amy: Oh, it's great talking to you again. So you're one of my Network Beyond Bias success stories because you and I met at my very first ever industry conference when we were both in Hawaii for the CPCU conference, and you were part of my "I'm gonna talk to three people today if it kills me" program, and we were both sitting front and center at a big session, and I think I turned to you and said, "Hi, you're sitting front and center too. We should probably talk," or something really dorky like that, and then we became friends from that. So you were one of the people that I kind of collected at that conference just because I forced myself to talk, and I'm so glad I did.OJ: And I'm glad you did as well, absolutely.Amy: Well, thank you. So we're gonna talk today about your entering the real estate industry--and the role that you're taking on is a little unique from what most people think of in terms of real estate, so can you tell me first what it is that you do, who you help and how you help them?OJ: Sure, absolutely. So my primary focus is helping people who have real estate problems. So folks who have repairs that they can't make at their home. They have code liens, tax liens, debt that they can't pay off, or for whatever reason they need to get out of the home that they're in and they don't have a solution that traditional real estate can help [?]. So for whatever reason they can't put this house up on the market. They can't make a profit selling that house on the market. Planning unique solutions to help them get to where they want to be.Amy: And so this is--like I said, it's kind of a special situation that you're creating, a special opportunity that you're creating for yourself. Can you tell me how you got involved in this and sort of what about it appealed to you?OJ: Yeah, absolutely. So as you know I work in insurance, and there are many times where you run into a situation where there's something not covered by a policy, and that could be a $10,000, $15,000, $100,000 problem, and when someone has an issue like that and they're not able to get financing or fix the problem, you know, it becomes a safety issue where they're living in a home that's potentially unsafe, they're living in a situation where, you know, no one should be living, and I got into insurance because I wanted to help people, and for the most part we can. There are tons of things that are covered, but in those situations where something isn't covered and, you know, there are people who feel helpless, they don't know what to do, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to [?]. So I started looking into different solutions, and I actually met a couple real estate investors who were like, "What? That's exactly what we're looking for." I was like, "Why would you want this house that has, you know, $30,000 worth of damage? There's a mortgage on it. There's all these issues," and they were like, "This is exactly the situation that we're looking for. We want to help people who are in these situations, because we want to get them living somewhere safe, and we want to take that home and put in a position where someone can live in it again." So it just really appealed to me. You get the opportunity to help people. You kind of get to be thrifty and take something that was broken and fix it, and just, for those reasons, this industry really appeals to me.Amy: That's fantastic. So I recently moved into a new home about three years ago, and it had a lot of problems that we weren't anticipating. You know, we knew it would need a new roof for example. We didn't know that within the first year of ownership we were gonna lose our water heater, our HVAC system, our sump pump, you know, and have problems with some other things, and so I can see how very easily, even without, like, a traditional insurable loss--like, you know, there was no fire, there was no flood, right, it was just wear and tear on a house that had not been maintained for 20 years--and, you know, it was expensive, and we were already sort of maxed out on the mortgage, and so, you know, we had to kind of take out a second mortgage. It's really embarrassing to say, but we had to take out a second mortgage to pay for, you know, several thousands of dollars worth of repairs to a house so we could live in it, 'cause you can't live in a house in Indiana without heat, right? You can't live in a house in Indiana, you know, that's leaking carbon dioxide into your house. So, like, we had real problems, and people don't have a lot of reserves. A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. I know that's been my situation for most of my life. You know, it's really easy to get upside down really fast, not just in your mortgage but in your monthly expenses, and then to have somebody who can come in and say, "Hey, I can help with this." You know, "You're not gonna be homeless. You're not gonna lose money on your house." I can see where that would be a really welcome message for folks who are struggling or who are concerned about those things, because I can see how, you know, just a lot of people are just a few thousand dollars from disaster. I know I've been there many times in my life.OJ: Absolutely.Amy: So it's wonderful what you're doing. So what's something--I know you have already alluded to this a little bit, but what's been the biggest surprise to you about this industry? Something that you weren't expecting when you first got into it?OJ: So actually, the thing that surprised me most was, you know, you hear about real estate investors and you're like, "Oh, they're these slimy people and, you know they're just trying to make a quick buck and, you know, they're gonna offer you way less than what your house is worth," and that's kind of the stigma, and there are a few bad people who do those kinds of things, but for the most part everyone I've come across has really just wanted to help people. You know, whether it was me first getting into the industry and wanting to learn, people were willing to take the time out of their day to explain things to me, to walk me through processes. Their main focus is not how much money I've made, it's how many people did I help, and I think when you can go to bed at night knowing that your main focus is how many people we can help, you can sleep well, and it really kind of changed this thing in my mind. I was thinking, "Oh, man, I'm gonna be one of these slimy real estate investors," and really it's not that. You know, there are many times where a person doesn't need a real estate investor. They just need a real estate agent or, you know, they don't need either one of those things. They need help managing their cash flows, right? They're just spending too much on their discretionary spending, and that's taking away from their needs. And just being able to have those conversations--like, I went and got my real estate license also so that I could help those folks who need, you know, a traditional solution. And, you know, I partnered with some credit repair and some budgeting specialists who can talk to people about money management and focusing on taking care of their needs before going out and, you know, spending on things that they want, and that's really been able to help people, and it's just an amazing feeling knowing, "Hey, you know, I might not have made any money today doing this real estate investing, but I've helped someone, and this thing that I've done is gonna benefit them and it's gonna benefit their kids for years to come."Amy: That is wonderful. And it's always a shame to me when somebody says, "I was surprised by how nice people are," or how much people want to help, because we--I think so many industries have a bad reputation, right, that people are only out for themselves, you know, they're snakes in the grass and they're just waiting to attack, you know, and I have found too, as I've shifted my career a few times now, that there are always people willing to help. If your heart's in the right place--and you do have to be careful about it, right? Because there are some people who are out there looking to take advantage, but I would say probably 99% of the people that I've met at different stages of my career, when I'm ready to take on something new or make a jump or learn about something new, 99% of the people I meet are genuinely helpful, genuinely want to have a positive impact and, you know, show me something that will help me move forward. OJ: Right, and I've been fortunate to come across those people and really--in the real estate industry you kind of hear, you know, it's cutthroat, and I have not encountered that. I'm really--maybe I've been lucky. Maybe this is just the norm. But I've been fortunate to meet people who are genuinely interested in helping me to develop, helping me to learn what I needed to know so that I could help more people.Amy: That's fantastic. So if somebody's not in real estate today and they're interested in getting started or learning more, what resources are available to them or where would you suggest that they start?OJ: Sure. I would suggest find the local chapter of the National REIA. Here in Orlando there's CFRI, Central Florida Real Estate Investors. It's a nonprofit group that focuses on real estate investment education, you know? There's an ethics course that you have to go through, and it's really designed to help real estate investors who are starting off in the business start making the right decisions for the right reasons and to be well-informed, and it's a great way to just network and meet with people who have been in the industry for a very long time, meet people who have just started, and kind of be able to pick their brains and partner with them and figure out how you can come together to find solutions for folks. So definitely get involved with the local chapter of your national REIA.Amy: And REIA is a Real Estate Investors Association? REIA.OJ: Right. Correct.Amy: Okay. And so just to be clear about this, you didn't take--I'm gonna pick on Trump University. You didn't take a Trump University $30,000 real estate course to figure out how to do this, right? You went and talked to people who were really doing this every day who are in it for the right reasons, who are highly ethical and willing to help you without thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in investment. Is that correct?OJ: Absolutely correct, and don't think that you have nothing to offer, right? So my background is in insurance, right? Well, if you're buying homes you need insurance, so knowing about the insurance industry--and, you know, I've been an adjuster and I've been writing estimates, so I have, you know, building [trades?] knowledge, and, you know, bringing whatever you have from whatever it is you do can benefit you, right? Like if you're an accountant, well, you're gonna need to be able to keep track of a lot of moving parts and a lot of numbers, so that's a skill that's needed. You know, if you work with your hands--if you're an electrician or a plumber or a carpenter, these are skills that are needed to get these homes up to code and make them safe for people. So, you know, having that trade knowledge is something that's tremendously beneficial. So this isn't limited to, you know, white collar jobs, blue collar jobs, anyone can do this. Amy: That's excellent, and I love that message, that you bring what you have and you find a way to contribute and people are there to help you and guide you and partner with you along the way.OJ: Absolutely. Amy: And, you know, that builds such a sense of community in an industry, when you know that you can't know everything, right? The accountant is probably not gonna be the plumbing guy also or, you know, vice versa. So I think that's a wonderful message, and I think it's important for people to realize that so many skills are transferable from one industry to another, and it sounds like this is an industry where maybe more than usual skills are transferable in.OJ: Absolutely. Amy: That's wonderful. So what are your thoughts on where this is headed in the future? Is this industry gonna need more people, or do you see this as a short-term set of problems that maybe in five to ten years will sort of take care of itself? Like, what do you see as the talent needs going forward? OJ: So just like the market is cyclical, the real estate investing needs are cyclical, and so this isn't something that's going away. People need to live somewhere. Anyone can come across a real estate problem. Like, when I bought this house, Matthew hit in Florida and destroyed, you know, pretty much everything in my backyard, and I did not realize how expensive fencing could be.Amy: And you're an insurance guy. You should know how expensive fencing can be, OJ. Come on! [laughs]OJ: And so I had a huge lot, right--the house sits on a third of an acre, and most of it is the backyard, so I was actually deployed helping folks who had damages at their home and I find out "Hey, you know, your fence is down," and I have a pool so I can't leave holes in the fence because that is a huge liability issue. So I called around to get some folks to kind of get me an estimate, and the first guy called back and said, "You have 321 linear feet of fence and two gates," and I just knew. I was like, "Oh, man. This is terrible," and, you know, he quoted me a price, and, you know, if it hadn't been a catastrophe, that was not something that I would have been able to do. And so, you know, I know how real these problems are, these things that come up are. And the policy I had didn't have a ton of adjacent structures coverage, and so, you know, the policy was only gonna cover a small portion of it anyway, so I had to pay for that fence out of pocket, and if I had to charge that to a credit card and make those payments, that would have been tough for me. And so I realized just how tough it is when those unexpected events happen, and sometimes your insurance can't help you or, you know, the things that you were counting on just don't work out for whatever reason, and it's, again, just something that isn't going away. This is an industry that will be here. As the market changes the needs change, and so we'll be here finding solutions for folks.Amy: So I want to take a step back for a minute because, you know, insurance--and I've worked in insurance for 10, 12 years now, right, insurance is one of those things that people hate paying for and they hate using it, right? Because if you're using your insurance it means something horrible has happened, and it's something that we think, "Okay, I want my premium as low as possible because the threat of having a claim is a remote possibility that we don't really know how to calculate," right? We don't know how to calculate that risk. What are the odds that I'm going to use this? We're afraid to use it sometimes if it's, you know, a minor thing. Who can people--let's talk about prevention for just a second. Who's the best person for someone to talk to when they purchase a house or even if they're renting about what kind of coverage they need and what they should be paying for coverage? Because that sounds like a first step to preventing getting yourself into this sort of a financial crisis to begin with, right?OJ: Right, and so if you have a financial planner, that's someone who you should talk to. There are agents everywhere. Go talk to an agent. You know, I sold insurance when I first got into insurance, and the way I look at insurance is you pay me your premium and I give you peace of mind, right? So I need to make sure that this policy that you're purchasing is going to give you that peace of mind, and so when you're purchasing insurance you shouldn't start off with how much premium you want to pay. You should start off with "How much coverage do I need to have peace of mind?" Right? So if you have a home that would cost $300,000 to rebuild if there was a total loss, total fire, and you only have $50,000 of insurance, you do not have peace of mind. You are not going to be able to rebuild that home, right? And so you just want to talk to your agent and talk to your financial planner. Understand the costs, you know? You don't have to become a builder, right, but understand the costs associated with rebuilding a home or, you know, if you're getting an auto policy, right, if you cause an accident, right, there are financial implications. You could end up liable for thousands of thousands of dollars of someone's medical bills, lost wages. You could be hurt and not be able to work, right? And so these are situations that your agents and your claims professionals come across every day, and, you know, I've been on the liability side, and I've seen where someone, you know, got hit by an uninsured driver and had $10,000 of uninsured motorist coverage but $50,000 worth of medical bills, and, you know, they were trying to keep their premium low, and you're not doing yourself a justice by saving $20 in premium when that $20 in premium is tens of thousands of dollars of additional coverage, and you don't know when you're gonna have an accident. That's why people call them accidents. You don't know when you're gonna have a fire. You don't know when these unexpected events are gonna come. If you're purchasing a policy, don't do it because a state says you have to do it. Don't do it because, you know, your mortgage company is saying you have to do it. Do it because you understand that this policy is gonna provide peace of mind in a time where you need peace of mind. The stress of going through these things, right, is overwhelming sometimes, right? And just having, you know, a professional on the other end who can say, you know, "Hey, I know what you're going through. These are the things that are gonna happen and, you know, here's how we can help," is tremendously beneficial.Amy: Absolutely. And, you know, higher premiums don't mean better coverage. OJ: Right. Read your policy. [laughs]Amy: Read your policy, but not just that. Shop it around, right? Because I had--so when we moved into our house I went through the insurer that I had on our old house, and I won't name names, but we'll call them Company A, and Company A, my premiums on my new house were about $4,000 a year, and my coverage was I want to say about four... no, it was about $500 worth of coverage on just the house, and about a year later I decided I was gonna shop it just to see because it was coming up for renewal, and I got coverage through Company B, and Company B was $1,300 a year, and they estimated the rebuild cost of my house at over $700,000, and that's what they insured me at. So I was paying a lot more--I was paying three times the amount that I could have been for about half of the coverage with the first company versus the second, and it's all about how much do they know about your area, how much do they know about the kind of house that they're insuring, how much do they know about the risks and the likelihood of risk where you live, and how good is their math, right, when they're running those numbers, and so I think it really pays for people to talk to different companies and find out, because if I thought when I bought myself--I didn't pay $700,000 for my house, but if I had thought when I bought my house I needed $700,000 for the replacement cost coverage, I would not have insured it for $450 or $500,000, right? Because the other thing that happens that people don't know--and I don't want to go off on a big insurance thing, but the other thing that happens that people don't know is if you do have a total loss and you're under-insured, you don't get all the money your insurance company promised you at the beginning.OJ: Right. So there's that [?] percent co-insurance and [?] the cash value. Right.Amy: Right, so if you have a $200,000 house, let's say, and you have $100,000 worth of coverage on it, and you have a total loss, your insurance company will say, "Well, you know what, it's a lot more common to have a $100,000 loss on a $200,000 house than it is to have a $100,000 loss on a $100,000 house," right? "So we're only gonna pay 50% of your policy payout, or 80% of your policy payout, because you weren't insured to the full amount of your home." And so not only are you not getting the full value of your home, you're not even getting the full value of your policy at that point. You really want to make sure you've got full replacement cost on your home.OJ: Right. So, again, start with the amount of coverage that you need and then shop based on the coverage that you need. So compare apples to apples, right? 'Cause one company, like you said, could offer you--like, let's say Company A offered you $400,000 worth of coverage for the same $700,000, right, and then Company B said, "Hey, we'll offer you, you know, $700,000 worth of coverage for $1,000," right, you're getting the same coverage, right, but if Company A was saying, "Hey, $1,300 a year for $700,000 worth of coverage," and Company B said, "$1,000 for $400,000 worth of coverage," you're paying a lower premium, but you're also getting less out of the transaction, definitely. Your starting point should be "How much coverage do I need?" And then shop around, and always say "Hey, these are the limits that I want. This is the coverage that I need. How much are you charging for that amount of coverage?"Amy: Yep. Absolutely. Thank you, OJ, so much. That is so helpful, and I see several spinoff topics on this conversation, because I think it is important, and I think people really don't understand this. Insurance is kind of a black box, right? I pay a premium and then I pray I never use it, and we need to be more educated consumers about that, definitely. So I wanted to ask you a little bit, any other recommendations for our listeners about what they might want to learn about this industry or where they might go, you know? Articles or places that they might just show up and read or listen to learn more.OJ: Sure, sure. So there are tons of podcasts out there about real estate investing. There are seminars that happen throughout the year, but some of those seminars are thousands and thousands of dollars. I wouldn't recommend that you pay thousands and thousands of dollars starting off, especially not knowing if you're gonna dive in full-time, right? You don't want to spend $30,000 on something that might be a hobby, right? But just definitely reach out to folks. So if you get involved in your national REIA there are Facebook groups, and just reach out to folks who are in the industry and talk to them. I mean, the best value that I've gotten is just conversations with folks and learning things that I never would have thought about, right? I remember one conversation I was having with a guy named Bill Cook, who's a really successful real estate investor, and we were talking about mobile homes, and it was like, "Well, why would anyone want to buy a mobile home," right? And he shared with me that during the recession that was the best investment that he could make, because people were calling him and saying, "Hey, I need somewhere to rent, and I can't spend $700 or $800 a month. Do you have anything for $450?" And his phone is just ringing and ringing and ringing, and he had nothing in his inventory that he could rent for $700 or $850 a month, and then he got into investing in mobile homes, and he was able to now provide clean, safe housing for folks who couldn't afford $700 or $800 a month, but they could afford $450, and it was a smaller investment for him, right? Instead of buying a stick-built home you buy a mobile home, right, the costs are way different, and so he could make that work in his business model and help folks out who needed somewhere to live. And so, like, just having those conversations and understanding that, you know, you might have a preconception or you might be thinking of something in a way that is gonna prevent you from helping people, and just really having those conversations and being open-minded.Amy: That's fantastic. I would like to ask you to finish this sentence. "I feel included when ________."OJ: The people around me are laughing.Amy: Well, OJ, I can tell you that I am so happy to have you in my network and count you among my friends. I have so much fun talking to you, and I think the world of you. I think that you are on just this meteoric rise, and I expect great things from you. You're somebody that I want to, from the moment I met you I wanted to invest in you personally, because I wanted to see what you would become and what you would do in the world, and so I want to thank you for letting me be a part of your journey and thank you for joining me today.OJ: And I want to thank you for having me. It has been truly amazing getting to know you and seeing all of the wonderful things that you're doing and all of the value that you're bringing and all of the awareness that you're bringing just on the side. We had a conversation about intersectionality, and there was a talk on intersectionality here in Orlando, and I went, and, you know, I figured "I'm a person of color. I kind of understand other folks," and it was astounding how much I didn't know, right? And so just kind of--that conversation with you kind of inspired me to kind of go and learn about different groups and, you know, I actually had a mentor who identifies as a gay man, and I had no idea, and we were having a conversation surrounding intersectionality, and he confided in me, "Hey, you know, I've been a gay man for my whole life, and I don't share that with people because I've been ostracized." And, you know, here's a guy who's, you know, in his 50s, right, who doesn't feel comfortable being himself or expressing himself. And I had known him for quite a while and didn't know this about him, and it was kind of humbling to have him share that with me and realize that, you know, while I may have had my struggles, there are other people who are experiencing different struggles, and, you know, there are conversations that need to be had so that those people are empowered, right? And it was at that talk about intersectionality that, you know, we kind of talked about identity privilege, and I didn't realize how much identity privilege I experienced, and it was really eye-opening that, you know, here I am as a minority, but I experience identity privilege, and there are things that I need to do to empower those who don't have the same identity privilege that I do, and so I want to thank you for just bringing awareness to me and inspiring me to kind of go out and learn more, because it really is important.Amy: Thank you so much for saying that. I think one of those most powerful things that we can do as people, right, not as managers, not as coworkers, not as in whatever role but just as people, is ask questions and give each other the space to share, because it's in those spaces where we learn and we grow and we really build connection. And, you know, in the talks that I give I always tell people, "Look, if you think no one in your inner circle is LGBTQ, there's a really good chance you're wrong about that. And it's not that they're not there, it's that they're not comfortable talking to you about it." And the same goes for a lot of other identities too, right? You know, I know a lot of white people who will say, "Oh, I'm friends with--you know, I have lots of black friends," which is always a sign that they don't of course, but when you ask, like, "Who?" You know, it's usually somebody at work that they kinda sorta know, and, like, "Have you ever talked to them about their experience being black in the workplace?" "Well, no." I'm like, "Well, you're not a very good friend, are you?" [laughs] Wouldn't you want to know what that experience is like for your friend? So no, thank you so much for opening yourself up to those conversations and for sharing so much of yourself with me. I'm just honored to know you, OJ. I really am.OJ: Thank you. The feeling is very mutual, Amy.