Podcast appearances and mentions of ken as

Zach sits down with Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco Healthcare, and they talk about being an executive while Black, COVID-19, and advice around navigating corporate America on this special Monday episode.Connect with Ken on LinkedIn.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and wow. You know, I'm recording this on May 27th, and it's challenging times, right? You know, we talk about Living Corporate being a platform that amplifies and centers marginalized voices at work, and one thing about--I'm gonna just speak from a Black perspective--is that we say that being Black is exhausting, like, that's a common phrase you'll hear, like, on Twitter and stuff. Black people say it, and we'll say it also in conversation, like, "Being Black is exhausting," but the reality is being Black is incredible. It's the systems of oppression, and that's cultural, that's political, that's legal, that's legislative, that's economic, that's judicial, that's... like, these systems come together and make being Black exhausting, and so I come to you today, you know, I'm excited, I'm thankful to be here, and I'm thankful wherever you are. I see you. I appreciate you. You're loved and you're supported. You know, we exist to really be a space, a digital oasis if you will, of encouragement and affirmation, and so we do that on this platform by having real talk in a corporate world. We interview CEOs. We interview executives and entrepreneurs and authors and activists, scholars, authors, all types of folks, really tackling perspectives from marginalized experiences and marginalized identities, marginalized meaning underestimated, underrepresented, under-supported, and we do that every week, and today is no different, y'all. We have Ken Miller. Ken Miller is, man, one of the few CEOs we've had on the platform. I just want to actually get right into it. Ken, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ken: I'm doing fantastic, Zach. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: Oh, man. I have to ask, you know, how are you and your family doing during this time?Ken: As you said, these are very, very difficult times, challenging for all of us. In fact, you know, this COVID-19 crisis has truly impacted my family. Unfortunately I lost my grandmother to COVID-19. I lost my uncle to COVID-19. My mother-in-law tested positive and is now in the hospital. So this pandemic is truly impacting all of us, in particular my family and moreover people of color around the world, and we gotta do everything we can to try to get this thing under control, Zach.Zach: Absolutely. You know, I want to get right into it, right? Every now and then, like, I'll read this huge bio for folks, right, but I really want to give you space to talk to us a little bit about yourself, talk about your company, your background, and just what you want folks to know about you.Ken: Yeah, for sure. I come from very humble beginnings. I grew up in Westchester County in New York City in a very small town called Greenberg, New York, and growing up in Greenberg, we all grew up like family, and I was fortunate enough to have a very tight network of family and friends that really supported me in my development, made sure that I did everything I had to do academically as well as build some decent athletic skills. And I was fortunate enough to go to college. In fact, I was the first member of my family to go to a four-year university and actually graduate, and fortunately enough I was able to get into school via football, but while there I grew a passion for academics and ultimately wanting to make a difference. You know, I was fortunate enough to jump into the healthcare industry shortly after undergrad where I just continued to progress, be given more and more responsibility. I had a network of leaders that supported me along the way in my development, continued to challenge me and give me new opportunities, and throughout this journey that's been over 30 years I've been fortunate enough to lead organizations here in the U.S. for major Fortune 100 companies like Pharmacia Pfizer, like Roche Labs, like Novo Nordisk. I even had the opportunity to serve as an ex-patriot in Basel, Switzerland for about two and a half years while with Roche Labs, and I believe that that journey, those experiences, actually prepared me to take on more of a leadership role in healthcare, and currently I am the president and CEO of Nasco Healthcare. We are a healthcare company focused on the development of simulation training solutions for first responders, such as folks who are in the frontlines right now fighting COVID-19, nurses and doctors, to ensure that they build the skills so that they are ready to meet the needs of patients however they present themselves, and so I'm very happy and excited to be on this podcast with you, talk to you a little bit about my background and my journey, but the long and short of it is, Zach, that I come from humble beginnings and I feel very fortunate and thankful to be in this role today to try to make a difference in healthcare. Zach: You know, let's talk about your role. You're the second Black male CEO we've had on the show. I'm curious to get your perspective on what you would say are the biggest factors that have led you to the seat that you're at in Nasco today.Ken: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that it is 1. my faith, as well as my support network, that has led me here. You know, trusting in God, trying to be the best person that I can be, living my life with integrity I think has positioned me well to take on this opportunity. And then having a strong support network. My wife, she's my #1 champion. She's always in my corner. She always helps me make good decisions, as well as my broader network of family members and friends who coach me along the way. I think those two elements have prepared me to be here as CEO and president. Don't get me wrong - I was very fortunate to go to a four-year school, get my undergrad education. I went and got my MBA from the University of Chicago, one of the best business schools in the world. I've worked all around the globe, so I've had great experiences, and I think that those things coupled with the first two points that I made have absolutely prepared me to take on this type of leadership role, Zach.Zach: I'm curious, especially during times like these, and we're coming up right after this whole Amy Cooper situation and the continual just brutalization of Black bodies that continues to be broadcasted on, like, major media platforms... I'm just a manager, but even I as a manager, I feel like my safety net has gotten smaller and smaller as I've progressed in my career. Am I overstating the pressure to succeed as a Black male CEO and, like, the small degree or the lack of grace that you may have the higher up you get? Am I overstating that?Ken: No, not at all, Zach. I do believe that our circles are getting smaller, and the challenges of assuming these leadership roles for men of color are even more and more difficult.Zach: So let's talk about that. How do you manage that stress for you? Like, how do you manage the stress of having to constantly be on your Ps and Qs? What does that look like for you? Ken: Yeah, absolutely. Let me come to the stress element second. Let me start with how to get there, okay? One is you've got to have to an unwavering belief in yourself. This makes me reflect back when I was in third grade, and my third grade teacher seeing me as a Black boy in class tried to put me in a remedial reading group, and my mom was not having it, Zach. My mom marched up to the school and she told that teacher, "There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. He has all of the capabilities as any other kid. All you've got to do is put him in the position and challenge him and hold him accountable." From that moment on, I committed myself to being my absolute best, to having a commitment to excellence in everything in which I do, and so that brings me back to this unwavering confidence and belief in yourself and never giving up, Zach, and I think that if you do that you will achieve your greatest opportunities. You will fulfill your greatest opportunities. Now let me get to your question about the stress, right? You know, listen, obviously being president and CEO comes with a number of pressures. It's a 24 hours a day, 7 day a week job. You're never off. There's always a flood or a fire that you've got to deal with. There's always a great opportunity that needs your input to lean on, to pursue. So it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I think that early on when I assumed this role it was far more challenging and far more stressful because I didn't have the experiences and I reacted to each individual situation with everything. I think that what I've learned, Zach, is to treat triumph and disaster as the true impostor of which it is. I try not to get too high when things are going great. I try not to get too low when things are going poorly. Second aspect of it is that I realize through my career to be successful it's going to take a team, therefore I try to gain organizational alignment and input and have strong trust and agreement among my team, because I know what it's gonna take to win is that it's gonna take the collective effort of all of us working together to achieve our aim or overcome any individual challenge. As a result of that, I think that I'm managing the stress much, much better. Because I don't get too high or too low, as well as because I lean on the capabilities and strengths of my teammates, recognizing that I don't have to take it on all on my own, that there are others that are in this with me to help me solve these challenges.Zach: What does it look like for you to navigate white fragility and build relationships and coalitions of trust with folks that don't look like you, considering where you sit as an executive?Ken: Hey, that's tough, right? You know, it's much easier for us to connect and bond with those that look like us, talk like us, walk like us. It's far easier. But at the same time, that's not the world or the environment in which I work in, right? It never has been, from the minute I walked into corporate America. I've always been surrounded by predominantly Caucasian males and to some degree Caucasian females, very few minorities. And so what I've learned to do throughout my career is find my authentic self, Zach. Be me. Be the best Kenny that Kenny can be and always present that to others, and I think that with me being authentic and genuine I connect better with others, as well as I can have more candid, open and honest conversations about things that are working and things which are not working. Sometimes, you know, my culture--listen, I'm a little direct, you know? I'm a little forward, but I want to make sure that we're having the real conversation and we're not sweeping any issues or concerns under the rug. And so with doing that I think that I've built really strong, long-lasting, trusting relationships with those which I've worked with. If you ever look on my Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook page, you'll see all of my colleagues throughout my 30-year career who are still my friends, who still recognize me for having a contribution in their development and helping them to progress and get to where they are today, and many of them are my Caucasian counterparts.Zach: Let's talk a little bit about Nasco and your journey in healthcare and, like, why this industry specifically.Ken: You know, it's very interesting. Zach, when I came out of undergrad graduating from the University of Albana in 1990, I just wanted to get a high-paying job, you know? So I wanted to get paid, so I jumped out and accepted a role down on Wall Street with Morgan Stanley. You know, I could see my future. I thought I'd be living the high life like The Wolf on Wall Street, but I quickly realized after a short six months in that industry that, although I was succeeding, I was growing, I was learning, I wasn't being fulfilled or personally rewarded, and so I got recruited by a pharmaceutical company and ultimately accepted that role, and I immediately began to flourish, and what I found was that I was able to do good while doing good, and what I mean by that is I was able to grow professionally, be successful, achieve my professional goals and aims, but at the same time I was able to bring healthcare solutions to physicians and nurses that were ultimately on the frontlines of impacting and saving people's lives, and from that I was tremendously rewarded. So throughout my 30-year career I have, with all of my passion, jumped into the deep end with these communities, whether it be the diabetes community, whether it be the psychiatric community, whether it be the simulation and training community of frontline healthcare workers, because I truly believe that the work in which I've done over my 30-year plus career and even to this day is really making a difference in helping to ultimately save lives and make our communities even better.Zach: So we're in extraordinary times. Can we talk a little bit about how Nasco's business is adapting to the market and challenges presented by COVID-19?Ken: Yeah, this is a very challenging time, Zach, and for us we've tried to modify and adjust our business to these times. First and foremost, the number one thing is to keep everyone safe, both the associates that work within Nasco Healthcare as well as their family and friends and the communities in which they live. So what we've first done is that we've enabled as many associates within the organization that have the ability to work from home to work from home. For all of those who are essential and critical to maintaining our business on a day-to-day basis within the building, we've instituted all of the normal social distancing measures, staying 6 feet apart, having mask requirements, limiting vendors into the corporate facilities, putting our manufacturing associates on staggered shifts to limit the bringing together in common areas like lunch rooms and break areas. We disinfect the entire facility from top to bottom four times a day, as well as we've put extra care into disinfecting all of our products as they are being shipped out of the building and ultimately arriving at our customers. So safety is the #1 priority. In terms of meeting the demands and the needs of the markets in this changing time, we've created more remote learning solutions. So we've partnered with universities, healthcare systems and governments around the world to create simulation training solutions that can be delivered digitally online so that healthcare professionals can continue to get certified and trained so that they are ready and prepared to meet the challenges of this pandemic. The last thing that we've done is that we've ramped up the production of our life-saving solutions, specifically our CPR solutions, our intubation heads, as well as our patient communication simulators that aid healthcare professionals in diagnosing COVID-19 during this crisis. Zach: And, you know, I'm hearing the parameters and the measures that you're taking. I'm curious, with that in mind, and as we look at--you know, folks are saying that this may be going on until, like, next year. You know, when you look at the next 18 months, what are you most excited about with Nasco?Ken: Yeah. I'm really excited about our ability to be able to take training from the classroom and take it into the home. With our digital remote learning solutions, I think that we have the ability to really help healthcare and first responders to be ready to 1. navigate through this crisis as well as be better prepared in the future. As well, we are ramping up our production of COVID-19 simulation solutions so that... and I shouldn't say just COVID-19 simulation solutions, Zach, but pandemic response simulation solutions so that once we conquer this pandemic and we use these solutions, we'll be much better prepared for those in the future. I think if there's one thing that we learned from the COVID-19 crisis is that we were not ready. We were not prepared as a nation or as a globe, and so I believe that our local, state and federal government leaders have clearly identified how woefully unprepared we were. So at Nasco Healthcare, our aim and our goal is to ensure that everyone be ready, and so we are building those life-saving solutions that help first responders and healthcare professionals be ready when the time comes. So whether it be to diagnose a patient during this crisis, whether it be to train a respiratory specialist on how to put someone on a ventilator, or to be able to resuscitate a patient that's in cardiac arrest that's right by the bedside or on the side of a car accident. All of these solutions we believe we will be coming forward with over the next 12-18 months that show a very bright future for Nasco Healthcare, and we ultimately hope to help the community be better prepared in the future. Zach: So before we let you go, what advice do you have to the marginalized professionals, especially now, in the workplace?Ken: Yeah. Well, I'm one of those marginalized professionals in the workplace, and so the first thing I would recommend is to believe in yourself. Never allow anyone to steal your confidence. That's #1. Have an unwavering belief in yourself. Two, commit yourself to excellence. Do the absolute best you can do at whatever you are doing. My mom taught me at a very young age that if you're gonna clean a bathtub or clean a toilet, scrub it until it shines, you know? Give it your best. Give it your all. Third is to build your network, right? Find individuals that you believe that you can learn from and ask questions. Be inquisitive. And last but not least is you've got to get up every day, right? You've got to get up every day and commit yourself to doing all that you can to grow. I think that there's one thing that I want the marginalized associate to remember, and one of my leaders taught me this a few years back in my career, Linda [?], one of my fondest leaders in my career, and what Linda told me was, "Ken, you might feel like you've got your back against the wall and there's only one way out of this situation, but remember, there are hundreds of options. You just have to down-select to the option that you think is most attractive for you." So Zach, for that marginalized associate, the last thing I'd want them to remember is that you've got many, many options to succeed. Don't believe there's only one path to your success. But choose a path and then get on that road, and if you find yourself deviating, course-correct, but stay focused, stay committed, continue to believe in yourself and I'm confident that you will achieve your goals and your aims. Chase your dreams. Never give up.Zach: You know, Ken, I gotta tell you, I appreciate your energy, man. Before we let you go, any shout-outs?Ken: I would just like to thank you, Zach, for allowing me the opportunity to be a part of this podcast. I'd like to thank Tina Chang and the pioneering collective for the work in which they do on my behalf, and I would just like to thank all of my friends and family who have supported me throughout my career that have allowed me to get to where I am now. I would just pray that everyone stay safe and stay healthy, and I'm wishing all of you and your families, you know, positivity as you navigate through this COVID-19 pandemic.Zach: All right, Ken. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. We do this every single Tuesday. Make sure you check us out. We're all over Barack Obama's internet, okay? So if you type in Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod and on Instagram @LivingCorporate. Until next time, you've been talking to Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco--CEO and president of Nasco Healthcare. Peace.

Summary: When we began this podcast, our goal was to share and learn about the questions that many have but few talk about. There may be no more secretive or uncomfortable area among agencies than the topic of pricing. The result of this is many different pricing models, and clients that are comparing apples to oranges. This lack of conversation hurts the entire community. Today we’re breaking down some of those barriers. We are discussing pricing strategies, payment systems, the importance of educating your clients, true hourly cost, and more.   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode:  Basic but SO important: Pricing correctly determines the financial health of not only your business, but the value that you can provide clients.  “Unless you’re healthy as a business, you can’t provide really good services to your clients.” - Ken  Transition to instant electronic payments. We live in the 21st century, people! Work to make everything as clear as possible upfront. This includes scope, payment terms, payment dates, overages, etc. Many clients will require deep education on your processes and payment terms. If they are not able to see your perspective or understand your needs and requirements, maybe they’re not the best fit! Don’t be afraid to not take on unhealthy projects.   For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [3:05] Bob asks Brad and Ken about their pricing models.  [4:15] Ken: Metacake has 3 basic types of pricing models: Projects, Retainers, BAI (Bill and Incurred) The older-school model of billing for hours spent without any expectation of the amount can cause a lot of friction even when clearly communicated. We work to minimize this type of billing as much as possible. Projects: Includes engagements with a clear start and end. Things like building an online store, development, design, strategic help. Retainers: Ongoing services like marketing campaigns, coaching, management fall into this scope. [6:48] Bob: “Do you try tailor the plan to the client’s needs? Do some clients prefer a fixed rate and do some prefer an hourly rate?”  [6:58] Ken: “We try not to because consistency is how we are able to deliver results… many would prefer a fixed rate as much as possible, but the nature is that many things are unknown and it’s important to acknowledge that.”  [7:22] Brad reflects on Ken’s philosophy of what matters to have a healthy business. Ken is more apt to try and get the client to work within Metacake’s processes, versus Metacake working within the client’s processes. [8:09] Ken: “Unless you’re healthy as a business, you can’t provide really good services to your clients.”  Refers to the analogy of “put your mask on first” in the case of a plane crashing. Taking care of yourself first is necessary to help anyone around you.  Going to a coffee shop, it only makes sense to ask for coffee in the way that they make it- messing up their process means you don’t know that the product will be the best it can be.  [10:18] Brad talks about his company spending a lot of time trying to collect money from clients.  Having specialized, personalized payment plans means more work for Anthem and inefficiency all around.  [12:00] Ken: “As an agency, you should think about ‘What is the formula that makes us able to deliver this product for the value and the price, efficiently, scalably, in a healthy manner for your business so that you can stay in business.”  [12:51] Brad asks if there are situations where maybe a client is willing to commit for a year but only for a reduced rate.  [13:25] Ken: For Metacake, they do give a discount on a rate for a longer-term commitment. “If you’re going to really serve somebody, you need the ability to know that you can invest into making sure you get those services.” If you can’t really invest because you don’t have a commitment, how can you do really great work?  Metacake typically begins reducing rates around a 6 month commitment. [14:50] Bob asks: “What do you feel are some best practices and philosophies that bring you to the table based on your experience on how to price a client and a project?” [15:45] Brad speaks about working in the advertising world back in the day, and remembers how there were built-in measures for overages that clients didn't understand.  “Clients don’t want to pay for three or four or five half day meetings of discovery meetings and pay for it, just to understand them better so that you can actually get a real statement of work done.”  [17:43] Ken speaks on deep discovery documents - Metacake tries to avoid them unless they are paid. If they are necessary, they are fit into the first part of the project.  [19:01] Brad speaks on Anthem including that brand discovery into the first part of the project, and ensuring that there is deep value in what the client receives.  [19:40] Brad mentions how difficult it is to provide an estimate for people on the fly. “Can you give me an estimate for that… we need a website developed, can you give me an estimate for that?” These are difficult questions to answer, but only because there is a distinct lack of information and conversation around budget.  [20:15] Bob talks about uncomfortable conversations about pricing with potential clients. Many clients want an “estimate” for work but don’t want to share a budget or much about their needs. There is a “game” mentality for many people, but the reality is that budget will have a deep impact on the offerings from any agency you work with.  [21:41] Ken stresses the importance of tracking time spent talking with potential clients and setting up for discovery.  [22:37] Bob adds that when he owned an agency, they charged per proposal. “It helped in the sales process… you can pay me and execute this with whoever you want… or you can and continue to work with us.”  [24:32] Ken talks about the importance of trust. Building trust allows clients to work with you and open up about honest budgets, and the earlier on you can get to that level of transparency, the more smoothly and efficiently the sales process will go.  [26:15] Bob asks for rates! [26:25] Ken: $195 to start, reduced to $175 for longer or larger projects. “Our cost basis, on a net level, is in that $100 to $150 range.”  [28:30] Brad speaks about how some clients may look at what you charge and attempt to match hiring a freelancer or an in-house person with hiring an agency… “But sometimes they don’t actually do the math of even their own employees of how much it’s actually going to cost them to have that person sit there at their office.”  [29:15] Brad: “We charge between $165 and $220 an hour, depending on what we’re doing. We like to get to the point where with all our projects in the end, we’re at around $150 an hour range.”  Brad adds that with almost all clients, around 80% of them eventually start to try and negotiate on price, so they try to add padding onto the pricing to account for that. Ken provides insight into how to keep this from happening.  [30:53] Ken talks about how to combat that. Metacake doesn’t build in a buffer to negotiate on, and that sort of transparency has had good results.  [31:45] Ken asks about the guy’s average project price. Metacake‘s is between $30K and $150K.  [32:50] Brad says that for Anthem, a short term 3-4 month project needs to be around $50K to make it worth their time. [33:05] Ken speaks about the beauty of having those difficult conversations. In having this specific convo, he is learning more about how Metacake can help potential clients that may not be the best fit- other agencies could be a better fit.  In addition, so many agencies cover their pricing that there isn’t a proper public consensus for what things cost.  Prices aren’t published online for most companies, but almost all of them have package options that they will send.  [35:30] Ken and Brad discuss the idea of posting limited pricing information on their websites, just for transparency's sake. Will it actually be enough to entice some? Will it turn others off?  [37:15] Ken: “Be aware that if you reduce something to fit into someone’s budget, it has to be successful.”  Brad and Ken talk about creating “packages” for clients that are limited and more straightforward, without customization for the product, etc. If this package is not appropriate for the size of a client but you attempt to make it work anyway, you could be doing yourself a huge disservice.  [39:15] Bob: “The lower you come down on your prices, you are communicating with your prospect what your value is.”  [40:40] Brad speaks on building brand equity. “It takes a lot of time and commitment, investment with no real immediate return.”  The higher your brand equity, the less and less you have to spend on marketing.  Companies like Tesla don’t have to spend any money on marketing, because the brand speaks for itself.  Finding clients who want to become a long-term partner to build brand equity is difficult. Most want to spend a dollar to make two, then leave.  [44:50] Ken talks about a prevalent misconception of “growth hackers” and marketing shortcuts in the digital space. “You can get the idea that it’s easy, it’s low cost, and I don't’ have to invest anything into it,” but that’s simply not possible.  “The truth is, you have to invest in something if you want to create something.”  Ask potential clients- what is the value you’re providing? Not always numbers.  [45:51] Bob: “There’s just an ignorance… not to be derogatory… they [prospects] don’t know what they don’t know.”  [46:45] Brad asks to speak about invoicing and software they use. Anthem typically has net 30 payment terms, or requires that the invoice is paid within 30 days of receiving it.  A 2-month project would be split into a downpayment and then 2 other smaller payment.s  Deposits may be around 30% of the project, with the last billing coming around when the project is finished. That last payment doesn't come after the project is over, but when the statement of work says it is due.  Many clients will say “No let’s hold off until this project is over… we don’t pay because there are no billable hours,” which results in the agency losing money.  Clients missing deadlines or requirements shouldn’t change the date that monies are due.  [50:45] Ken mentions that Metacake doesn’t send invoices, but rather receipts Just like you can’t not pay your rent because you’re on vacation! Making space or allowing for client delays sets up a bad precedent for receipt of payment.  [53:09] Ken continues: “We try and operate very transparently upfront, we have disciplines that are important to creating success and also to keeping our sanity and we stand by those because that’s very important… we try not to let anyone abuse those… it’s important that clients have those similar values.”  [54:00] Ken: MC’s goal is to be an efficient, smart business so that we can be really great partners for our clients.  Projects are split into equal payments over the time of the contract. Quickbooks online, merchant accounts that are third party and secure to store payment info.  [56:35] Ken: “The expectation is that what goes on this agreement is not based on deliverables but rather effort because let’s be honest, very rarely have I seen projects where agencies have 100% control of the output deliverables… I think it’s unwise to even suggest that you, as an agency can control that deliverable 100% or that your payment is dependent on it.”  [57:33] Brad: Speaks on clients who are not prepared to participate. There is a clause in their agreement that points out charges that a client may get if they are stalling and keeping the process from moving forward.   

Summary: Today’s episode is Part 8 of our COVID-19 / Corona series, where we’re uncovering the good in the current situation. We’ve had some amazing guests over the weeks and have some amazing ones coming in the next episodes. Today, we sit down to do a 2 month check-in check-in, focusing on questions like: What are we seeing, feeling, and observing in our clients and in our own businesses? What are our takeaways so far? How has it changed people? How has it changed business and marketing? How long will it last? What does the NEW normal look like?   Owning an agency or service business can be a roller coaster of changes and pivots, and now more than ever the value that you can provide is at the forefront. For all businesses, and your clients - every dollar counts. But is that a bad thing? Is there more competition or less because “match” is more important now than ever.    We talk about moving your business away from commoditization and instead focusing on the value of your experience and expertise. How can you provide concrete evidence of that value to clients? And how can you come alongside them as a coach to lean into this period of growth?    Resources Mentioned:  Grab the "GO" T-shirt (if you dare!)   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Ultimately, none of us know for sure what the next couple of years will look like. Nothing will be the same, we will never go “back to normal”, we will move forward into a New Normal. Embrace it. It may actually be better. Things have shaken out and that is to the benefit of businesses that are genuine experts. Don’t build your agency around services that are considered commodities (or could become commodities). Build your brand around you UNIQUE value. In creating value for your brand, concrete proof is more valuable now than ever. Create solid case studies that showcase your services and different forms of ROI- clients will appreciate and trust your knowledge and skillset much more quickly.    For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [2:00] Bob introduces the episode with a wrap-up of our Covid episodes so far- we’ve covered how to survive, thrive, diversify. He asks what Brad and Ken think the world will look like, business-wise, after this pandemic. What are we seeing, feeling, observing in our clients and in our own businesses? What are our takeaways? How has it changed people? What is the landscape going to look like and what do we need to consider. [3:20] Ken speaks on the “reset” that is happening amongst his colleagues and within his own business. Having done business through the recession of 2008 and experiencing this as well, the cyclical nature of the economy is very apparent. Two months ago a reset was hard to imagine, with nothing but blue skies on the horizon.  Things were moving so quickly, in some ways it felt harder to do business. Very noisy, competitive, overly commoditized, egos were big on both sides that was creating a type of inflation in itself.  [5:16] Ken: “As painful as a reset is, I think that pullback brings us back to the fundamentals of what is really important, brings us back to human beings, humbles us all- including the marketplace in a way that is advantageous to people that are genuine and businesses who are in it for the right reasons… if you have those qualities it’s easier to connect with people who really need what you have to offer.” [6:03] Brad asks Ken for a picture of what the future looks like as far as engaging in new business/ onboarding.  [6:35] Ken: “Agencies tend to fall into the category of all being the same… that makes it easier to be identified by potential clients… But really that’s not what makes you unique, what makes you unique is what will make them choose you.”  [7:38] Ken continues: “I believe that there’s gonna be more need to find the right match that gets the right results on the client side AND the agency side, because there’s less room for messing around… even time. Nobody likes spending money and it not work, but now, time is important.” The shift is connecting on a level that actually matches the intent of the client as opposed to a “cattle call” for whoever is the cheapest and fastest. [9:47] Bob recalls the early 2000’s when digital marketing was new, there is a similar reset. Back then, services were becoming commoditized so that everyone could do them.  “The new world will be more sensitive to value versus cost.”  [11:33] Bob continues: “People are like, I need an expert now. I need to build and create something that’s going to stand the test of time, that’s going to generate revenue smarter for me, maybe faster. Not with tactics, but with real expertise.” This is an opportunity for agencies to step up and not have to play in the commodity world as much.  [12:26] Brad recalls our last podcast guest Daniel Cobb and the analogy he made between being a tool versus the whole toolbox. Many agencies focus on being just a hammer, but he views his agency as the entire toolbox.  [13:45] Brad asks for further thoughts from the guys “If you rethink your agency model, do you now hire different people, do you rethink your team?” [14:10] Ken responds that those who are becoming commodities shouldn’t necessarily fight that.  Gives the example of real estate and the concept of websites like Zillow becoming popular. Because there is more technology out there, people can buy and sell more efficiently without an intermediary. Some are resistant to this, but ultimately that is the way the market is going.  [17:02] Ken continues: “What is your value that you can add regardless of if it’s easy or if it’s hard?”  [17:42] Brad speaks about his agency and the way that they do business. They definitely sell commodities but ultimately strategy is the biggest value that they offer. Having a seat the strategy table is vital, otherwise they are taken out by other companies that have commoditized differently/better.  [19:02] Brad adds that “If there is an opportunity, I always like to show a monetary return on investment, because if you don’t do that, that's where you become a commoditized business that is being told what to do, versus truly adding value.” That is a question that you should be asking your clients when you talk to them- what are your expectations on your ROI?  Brad stresses that especially in the coming months, ROI will become increasingly important. As we head towards the very real possibility of a recession, ROI will be at the top of mind with a lot of potential clients [22:07] Bob adds “Solid case studies and examples are going to be gold.” You’ll have clients asking for proof of that and see it in a document. “It's too easy to claim ownership when campaigns are successful, and it’s too easy to blame other things when it’s not successful.”  Client want to know: “Are you professional? Are you going to get a return on my money? Let me see where you’ve done it before with other clients… not who’s cheapest, or who gets the most clicks and impressions…” [23:45] Brad: “Being a creative agency is great but creativity now is becoming a commodity.”  The bar is really high, but just because you launch it doesn’t mean it will generate money.  [25:18] Bob: “I think honesty and authenticity are going to be held to a much higher value.”  Oftentimes you have clients who state exactly what they want, and although you agree and go for that, on the inside you really don’t think it will pan out just the way they want.  Being willing to be honest with clients about their expectations and leading them with your expertise will allow them to feel empowered and encouraged by your experience. And it allows you to be a part of the conversation. “What is the best ROI for you” instead of “How can we make the best money for you.”  [27:41] Ken: “None of us can guarantee results… you don’t own the product, the company, you can’t tell the future… Your job as an agency is to lead in the expertise that you have and challenge the beliefs appropriately so that you get your clients in the right place…. Like a coach. A coach can’t win the game for you, he can’t play for you. He can only stand alongside you with the expertise that he has, help get you ready, help train you… to help you win. But YOU still have to win.”  [30:00] Ken continues: “How do you educate based on changing market conditions to be investing in the right things that don't produce immediate ROI but do produce a long term ROI, AND find the short term wins?”  Balancing short term wins through low-hanging fruit with long term wins of extended ROI.  [31:24] Brad expresses curiosity for the next 6 months- will clients be more nitpicky about pricing? Will pricing models change, will we have to go back to the drawing boards?  [32:00] Ken speaks on pricing strategy and how moving away from being the “cheapest” model to a value-based model. Hanging your hat on that model for business is not a strategy to long-term growth and survival. [34:45] Bob adds that this ties back into the concept of having a “why” that is deeper and more valuable than just earning money.  If you ARE in the commodity world, you need to pivot fast.  [37:50] Bob speaks about how to survive through this: “Being an expert, showing we’ve done it before, caring about ROI above everything… and it’s really important to lead with value and why we’re doing it, and having strong philosophies.”  [40:00] Ken talks about the other side of making those pivots and truly surviving through this: “On the other side of that now you’ve got a really distilled idea of who you are and why you’re so valuable… through that, it’s easier to sell.” Clients asking about legitimacy and actually DOING what you promise is more important now than ever. And in that sense, cost is a secondary thought for many. Because they want something that WORKS.  [40:55] Ken quotes Tony Robbins: “To succeed in business, it’s pretty simple. You just need to provide more value than anyone else.” This is relevant to today more than ever, and doesn’t necessarily mean adding more time or cost, but instead asking yourself “How can I create the most valuable offering in the most efficient way.”  [42:16] Bob predicts that laying people off may bring more efficient business practices internally. Letting go of 4 or 5 employees may be more efficient than hiring an outside partner to help with those services.  “How can we achieve just as much, if not more, with outside expertise?”  [43:40] Brad adds: “This will be an opportunity for clients to shop around… as we’re rethinking our businesses, customers are rethinking what they need… you may have a lot more customers who are looking for long term partners.”  [45:05] Ken speaks on the power of not only weathering the storm, but looking for the opportunities to thrive through it. “It won’t go back to the way it was, it’s going to go forward to something new… noone knows what that is… everyone’s at the starting line again. In some ways, it has re-leveled the playing field, creating advantages that people didn’t have before.”  [46:29] Brad: “Customers are going to look for companies who can support them… not those who are outsourcing pieces of the pie, but a well-oiled machine that can take them on.”  He is making efforts to keep his business as lean as possible on the operations side, as there is so much unknown. “I’m looking to weather the storm.”  [48:15] Bob adds that ultimately, none of us know for sure. Nothing will be the same, things have shaken out the way they need to and ultimately there are a lot of opportunities for those businesses that are thinking about bringing value and expertise. This is a great time to be learning, a great time to start with a high level of value and knowledge instead of just trying to be the cheapest commodity and grab business where you can.

Summary: Ever wish you could pick the brain of an industry leader who has been around a lot longer than you, has had a lot more success than you, has been down your road before, and is willing to share it all with you? Yeah, we did too. So we reached out to Daniel Brian Cobb, the founder of The Daniel Brian Agency. Dan’s agency has won more than 21 Emmy’s, advises clients like Papa John’s and Disney, is a respected author, and has been leading and growing his business and clients for over 30 years.   Daniel has seen it all from the 2008 financial crisis to the current 2020 COVID-19 recession. Daniel is one of the voices that large brands go to for advice in times of crisis. He’s an amazing agency leader and God-given innovator.    Daniel shares it all today. We discuss how he’s leading his clients and agency through this crisis, and the next wave of change that is coming.   And just like the rest of us, Daniel’s business isn’t immune to the current crisis. In the first 24hrs of the Coronavirus shut down his agency lost $1M in business. We talk about how he dealt with disappointments like this and how he’s actually gained more business through this time. There is always HOPE and Dan walks us through finding it.   This is an episode you want to listen to with your notepad ready (or just use our notes below:).   Resources Mentioned:  Dan’s book Surfing the Black Wave  Dan’s Quicken Loans Presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXuk0f_SvqQ   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: We are in the third wave: The Participation Age. This is about collaboration and smaller units of power. Getting more access and creating a greater weight than any one big organization could ever create. Owning your media is more important now than ever! As we shift into a new way of doing business, owning your platforms and connections with your customers is vitally important.  Innovate. Use the 80/20 innovation system. Always put 20% of resources towards future innovation. Be careful about doing any more or less. Your business must be healthy AND you must innovate to survive.   For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders   About our Guest:  Dan Cobb: Founder of the Daniel Brian Agency (DBA), author of Surfing the Black Wave and 30+ year industry veteran. DBA specializes in innovative and measurable advertising campaigns to engage families via retail, healthcare, digital TV, family entertainment, and sporting goods. Dan has worked with brands like Papa Johns, Henry Ford Health Systems, and Chick-fil-A to provide creative connections with local communities. Connect with Dan:  Website and Blog: https://danielbrian.com/digital-marketing-report/ On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielbrian Daniel’s Book Surfing the Black Wave https://amzn.to/2KHUD6l   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [1:24] Brad introduces our guest Dan Cobb.  28 year veteran in this industry.  Wrote Surfing the Black Wave [3:44] Dan tells us about his clients and the type of work he does. “We started with two types of clients. We started in healthcare and pizza. First two clients, Henry Ford health system, and Domino’s pizza.”  “Our experience is really in taking chain based organizations, local organizations that are widespread and building that local connection in the local community for those organizations.”  Gives example of Chick-Fil-A. When they work with a chain like this, the focus is more on local communities and local engagement. Daddy-daughter date nights, military appreciation nights, etc.  [4:56] Dan continues: “In doing that over the years, what we’ve learned is that connection happens in the community, connections happens through values… That’s great to have a pizza on sale, a $5 hot and ready, but you can beat that with a $7 pizza that cares.”  They ran a campaign for Hungry Howies that donated proceeds to breast cancer research. They experienced a 23% increase of sales that month, and they gained a quarter of a million Facebook fans and followers.  “We saw how that local connectivity is about connecting to the values that people care about there and then bringing that together for maybe a promotion, maybe not… it’s more important that you have that values connection.  [5:53] Brad reflects on first meeting Dan years ago. He recalls that Dan had a very clear vision that had nothing to do with advertising. Brad asks Dan what that “Why” core value system looks like these days.  [7:22] Dan responds: “Many of us started with writing or artistic or musical skills, and it kind of drove us into this industry, which gave us a way to compensate those skills… for me it went back to when I was a kid. I was sitting on the couch watching tv… mom walks into the room and says turn that off, that’s bad for you. Go out and do something good for you. And it was that moment… it was this though, Why does it have to be bad for me? Why does this content, this entertainment, this advertising have to be bad for me? Maybe I can make that change.”  [8:10] He recalls Nike’s “Just Do It” campaign impacting him strongly. As a runner, he found himself truly inspired by the commercials that he’d seen. “It inspired me to be a better runner, to be a better person, overcome the pain in my life, and just take on the challenges… why can’t advertising always do that type of thing?” [8:35] Dan: “So we started building a model around that… we call it Better Brands for a Better Human Condition. So we put everything we do through that filter: Is what we’re doing building a better brand for a better human condition?” “As a team, we started pull all-nighters, pretty much the slave shifts. We’ve all done it in this business… one of my staff members said ‘How is this a better brand for a better human condition?’” Helping your clients be the best they can be oftentimes comes at the expense of your internal team. Dan talks about how traditionally, advertising is terrible on employees. One client drops off and cuts have to be made, so there is a sense of very real fear every day. So he has worked hard to make his agency a great place to work. [10:01] Ken speaks about how advertising has had a “churn and burn” kind of experience in the past. Not having come from advertising, he’s had a different experience of the work.  [11:37] Ken continues: “We focused on how do we create a business that is different and the purpose is really not the product we put out. It’s the message that we stand for… How do we do things like create a staff environment that’s not continually expanding and contracting- literal financial stability that is not necessarily dependent on any one particular client..” [12:37] Dan interjects- “We hear about flattening the curve right now- we’ve been flattening the curve our entire careers!”  Reflects on the common experience of many ad agencies- working long hours sacrificing family and personal time, busting your butt to get things out the door only to find that the client isn’t happy and you both lose in that situation. [12:56] Dan: “So we now have been thinking through how do we flatten that curve so that through the course of the year, it’s fairly level… you have a few peaks, but it’s not all spikes and then drop offs. Managing that is really about managing a client… getting them on course and managing their calendar, building out longterm plans… looking for the kinds of clients who marry, who don’t date around.”  Everyone feels the pain of clients who are not interested in settling down into a longterm plan with you- you, the client, and your team especially.  [13:46] Brad speaks about a common theme here on Agency Exposed: “Are our businesses just a commodity or do we have a value that is unique enough that we’re not on that list of customers that are going to go and burn out agencies… our business has struggled because some of our offerings are commodities and others are not.”  The fast pace of technology has increased the pace of the agency industry and it’s easy to fall out of step with the changes if you’re not intentional about it and learn to pivot quickly.  [15:04] Bob segues into Dan’s book and the principles that he talks about. “Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe contextualize it for what’s going on right now. This whole idea that everything becomes commoditized… if it’s a new technology, new knowledge base, people start to learn it, more people start to learn it and it becomes a commodity… so what digital marketing was 15 years ago you can now pay $5 for someone to do it.” Lately there is a shift that has happened. Where the focus was on quick results expertise, very much focused on bottom dollar ROI, now we read requests for high level Facebook ad specialists, conversion rate optimization specialists. [16:33] Bob: “It almost feels like the tide is going back out again… what are you seeing in the context of what you write about in that kind of tsunami, black wave metaphor.”  [16:47] Dan reflects on his childhood proclivity for invention. “My grandfather was an inventor and he taught me a lot about how inventors think.”  Modern acceptance is that Amazon IS ecommerce, that it was a battle and Amazon won. Same with social media- there was a war and Facebook won. But an inventor always has hope for something new, for change. They will take ideas, put them together and create social media commerce. There WILL be another shift.  [17:54] Dan speaks about the Third Wave Model based on a tsunami metaphor.  A tsunami hit Hawaii and many people went out to the shore to marvel at the fish flopping out of water after the first wave hit. Little did they know, that marvel that they were distracted by was a sign of the next wave to come. Many lives were lost to that tsunami, people who were just spectators watching what had taken place.  [18:31] Dan says “I believe we’re in the same place. We’re all spectators watching social media saying ‘Well, that’s over, Facebook won, Zuckerberg had the final say’ but there is another shift coming because there’s a mindset shift that took place over the first two waves. The mindset shift came in and said ‘It’s no longer the big three, the big five, whatever the number is in any particular industry to control everything.’”  The first wave was thousands of years of agricultural society… the industrial revolution was the first great wave of society’s change in thought. Anyone can get a product. The next wave is information. It allowed everyone to have access to content, and people like Steve Jobs came and said let’s make this kind of computer technology available to the people and not just the big companies.  The third wave is the mindset shift. This is where people are given all the power, we call it the participation age. Everyone can participate (this podcast, for example) and everyone can influence.  [20:00] Dan talks about how it is no longer the focus to make one company the BIGGEST around, that model is outdated and useless in this day and age.  [20:36] “Eventually that model is going to break, well all of them are breaking… It’s better when Daniel Brian meets three other guys who have specific skills that I don’t have, and we intertwine our relationships and build out towards something bigger to serve a bigger population. The participation age is about collaboration and smaller units of power. Getting more access and creating a greater weight than any one big organization could ever create.”  [21:04] Brad asks what Dan’s suggestions would be for business owners to position themselves for this next wave. [21:18] Dan responds:  #1: Don’t be afraid to talk to your competitors. They have skillsets that help your ability to reach bigger audiences. #2: “Always take the sale, then price yourself out it rather than saying no.” Say yes, then fall back on your connections within your network to help you execute things you could never do by yourself. [22:45] Ken agrees with Dan and recalls that that is the reason that Agency Exposed exists. In advertising things tend to be secretive and closed-off from collaboration, everything is a competition and so we tend to be closed off in disclosing what we’re ACTUALLY really good at versus what we say we are really good at.  [24:15] Ken adds: “we often say collaboration over isolation… there’s a balance between saying you can do everything and being specialized.” [24:47] Dan: “It’s about vertical integration… your best new business is your current business.” When a client talks about how they want to explore a new solution, tell them you can figure it out for them.  He gives an example of working with Henry Ford healthcare. When they started they had a tiny sliver of a budget with the client, and they began to see things they could do and took on those challenges. They grew from a very niche organization to a broad advisor- “solving the operational problems of the organization with marketing solutions”.  [28:04] Bob asks: “What are some lessons you’ve used over 30 years that you could offer to some agency owners right now?” [29:07] Dan responds: “Own the media, it is our future, it is the Black Wave.” He talks about how in the early days of Facebook, if you got 9 million followers, that was a lot and felt very much like your platform like your community. But then Facebook changed that title, and now it’s just likes that you’re getting. So that’s no longer your community, that’s Facebook’s community. And THEN Facebook came in and said hey we can charge you to talk to these followers…  “.. So the future is no longer about going to other people’s media and trying to find your way. It’s about creating your own platform, owning that platform, and getting more and more visibility.” [32:24] Bob asks for practical advice for agency owners. [32:37] Dan: “Marketing automation… building around your CRM platform.” [33:39] Brad asks: “What are some ways during Covid-19 that you’ve had to help your customers pivot?” [34:06] Dan says “Don’t look at it as a negative.” He gives the example of Papa John’s sales being up to Superbowl numbers. “And so rather than just start to gouge the customer we tried to say how do we endear our customer and connect to them during this time.”  Papa John’s gave away pizza in communities where school lunches were needed. Now in those areas they are far outpacing the market because the communities know what they stand for during this time.  Speaking on healthcare opportunities: “We’ve now flattened the curve for the most part, but there’s a second curve coming. The second curve coming is the mental health crisis… the next crisis is the fact that people have lost their jobs… they’ve been rejected from transplant procedures… the mental health crisis is bound to happen.” [36:14] Dan continues: “So now’s the time for us to engage our communities with messages of hope. The future. Finding ways for our health systems to engage people and say, we have a model for getting virtual care because people are afraid to go to the hospital so they’re not getting their care.”  Market these new products and give insurance programs that make no copay or half copay for doing the virtual programs that are cheaper. “Build encouragement like Nike did back in the day saying Hey you have hope, you have a future, it’s going to be okay.” [37:05] Brad asks how he is personally staying “up” in all the chaos and working from home.  [37:25] Dan: “I’ve been following the stats and trying to be very very informative with them of where I think things are at, telling them about their future. A lot about where we’re going to be… how we’re using this to leverage on Covid marketing. We’re doing a lot of Covid campaigns so we’ve actually seen an increase in our business during this.”  He focuses on being human with them, talking about things like impact on families and ability to be with families. Encourages them to be happy about this time and enjoy it.  [38:35] Ken asks for elaboration on 2 points. Do you see this changing the way you guys do business? How so? You mentioned that some business has increased- how has that happened and how have you positioned yourself to not be an opportunist in that place, but actually increase your ability to sell well?  [39:08] Dan: “I’d be cautious to say that my business has increased… The first moment of the crisis… it took us less than 24 hours to lose a million dollars in contracts.” But they did reach out to clients and say ‘There are things you CAN do to survive and thrive through this, let’s tell people that you’re creating solutions through this.’ Many were not previously in ecommerce but were brought into that world. [41:15] Ken speaks on the shock of losing that much money in 24 hours. “How’d you lead your company through that? How did you take action without freaking out inside?” [41:30] Dan: “Well first I didn’t take action without freaking. I freaked out… for me it’s a faith thing… once I got past that point, I got to my center.”  He began looking at government programs, calling his team to see what was needed and what was missing. Did have some layoffs and gave them a long furlough.  He applied to gov’t programs and received assistance that brought real encouragement. [43:08] Ken: “As far as opportunities now, as our entire population shifts, how does this shift your business? You talked about the next wave being owned channels… how are you adjusting?” [43:15] Dan: Hospitals without an address are what will win. Telehealth solutions are the next frontier. “Whoever owns that particular market will dominate the market because it’ll be your first call…”  [44:38] Ken asks about the same but for Dan’s agency specifically.  [44:41] Dan: “Our own media platform is… we’re starting to do a lot more of things like this, content that’s going out to our clients.” Creating their own studies that allow them to inform their clients of where they rank against competitors in the marketplace. [45:44] Bob asks for advice for young solo-preneurs. As the trend of a solo model is becoming more and more popular and talent and resources are being outsourced more and more, what kind of advice can he give to people in the early stages of business?  [46:17] Dan: “A lot of the things that I accidentally did when I started DBA.” Keep a small home office to keep costs down- stay lean. Don’t hire people who talk a big talk for the long haul. “Find your experience partners but keep them at arms length, let them have their own business… bring them in when you need it and pay them a premium for short windows of work. Don’t hire full-time people for part-time problems.”  [47:20] Bob asks how to scale this. [47:22] Dan: “I’ll tell you when I get there!” Working in this way has allowed him between 5 and 10M in revenue regularly, but getting beyond that is the challenge.  [48:45] Brad asks: “How much approximately of your revenue do you spend on specifically reinventing your company, to move your company to the next wave?” [49:00] Dan: “Great question. Critical question. I nearly killed my company three times by missing the point of this question.” “Innovation is very attractive...so we end up getting distracted sometimes… it can become your core. And there’s no financial model for return on it. So if you put all your effort into innovation, you’re overinvesting.”  There is an illustration in his book about this, an 80/20 rule. “New business is not a slice in your pie. It’s a completely separate pie...it has to stay away from your core, it has to be a completely separate entity, a separate model, separate team, separate everything, but you want to make sure you’re central and focused on 80% of your business at all times.” [51:20] Bob asks Dan for info on his book and website.

Summary: Bob Hutchins, Brad Ayres, and Ken Ott discuss the art and struggle of getting client feedback, giving client feedback, and receiving client feedback in an agency. As you peel back the layers there is so much under this seemingly simple task.    Resources Mentioned:  7 Ways To Build A Happy & Healthy Agency Culture The (un)Agency Guide to Serving Clients Grow Brands That Matter t-shirt  https://www.anthemrepublic.com/- Brad’s Ad Agency https://metacake.com/- Ken’s Ecommerce Agency Metacake’s Ecommerce Growth YouTube Channel   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Establishing mutual respect between yourself and your clients is so important for getting valuable feedback from them. Toxic, fear-based relationships DO NOT WORK! Let go of your EGO! In order to truly create value from feedback, you have to be prepared to take hard truths and turn them into actionable improvements. Don’t let hurt feelings get in the way of true communication! The ONE thing every client should know about motivating people- GRATITUDE. Unsolicited encouragement or positive feedback is the magic way to get waht you want. It will ultimately drive your team / agency to do better and work even harder.    About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook   Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres   Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [1:21] Bob Asks: How do we solicit value and use client feedback reviews?  “Can be a real positive thing… learn what is going on in the client’s head and better improve your creativity and service that you deliver.” “Can also be a very controversial thing… how far do you let clients be in control of that type of feedback? And do you have mutual feedback for client relationships?” [2:24] Brad Ayres Responds “I look at communication based on subtext more than what they’re saying… tone of voice, body language. 80% of communication is body language.” What about when body language isn’t an option? “You talk to a client… on the phone, they’re bringing a lot of other stresses that have nothing to do with you, but they can take it out on you… the feedback loop is a difficult thing.” [4:30] Ken discusses the importance of trust-building elements  between agency and clients/ client and customers. The traditional relationship is that it would be rude or disrespectful to ask a client for feedback- what are other perspectives of this relationship? [6:00] Brad on asking clients for feedback: “The first thing they ask is ‘What would you like us to say about you?’”  “I know this sounds strange, but we actually write the quote…. And have them look at it and go, ‘Yeah that’s perfect, that’s what I would say,’ or they can tweak it if they want to… we’ve seen the best results because I feel like otherwise it’s an assignment that we’re giving them.” “To get a quote, that’s more of a promotional thing. But to really get client feedback has been really difficult for us.” [8:11] Brad: “What I’m trying to do all the time is trying to understand the temperature and pulse of our clients.” As a very empathetic person, it is easy to have empathy for your clients, and for your client’s customers. Especially when building a marketing strategy for them! [9:20] “...it’s a two way street and you want that mutual respect. And that’s really what is hard to build- this mutual trust where they’re giving back to the agency and giving feedback that is helpful.” At the same time, you’re giving them something that is very valuable and transparency means discussing when things are not working well- like any balanced and healthy relationship, having that open communication is key to be effective. [10:08] Ken: “The key thing that you said is relationship… it’s not easy to build all the time.” “...we go to great lengths to produce work that is quality and successful… we’re super high attention to detail and have a lot of integrity and we expect those same things from our clients- not because it’s arbitrary, but because those are things that are important to get to those results that they need.” You may run into clients who don’t agree, or don’t think it should be that way.  “The only way to get a great result out of a partnership is to have a good partnership, which comes from some sort of relationship- there needs to be mutual respect.” [11:40] Brad: “I always go back to the Jerry Maguire quote- ‘Help me help you’... sometimes you feel like your client isn’t helping you. They’re actually not an advocate for you. They’re the adversary. And sometimes it can feel like…. Even your employees start feeling like… the client is the bad guy.”  The feeling of “they’re not happy, they’re never happy, they’ll never be happy” can be prevalent.  [12:30] Sometimes clients are difficult and you work with them for 6 months and reach a breaking point.  “All of a sudden something breaks where you start to make them look like superstars in their business internally and they start to switch… they become more trustworthy of you, all of a sudden they become a different person and they’re like ‘Wow we’re going through a tough spot and we didn’t even know when we first started working with you.’” As an agency, you have gone through that tough spot with them and helped them through it and the trust begins to build. In this case, the question is “How far are you willing to go?” How long do you keep working before you say enough is enough we can’t keep doing this, this client is a really bad fit for us- and when do you say okay let’s keep showing them love and working hard for this. [14:00] Bob: “In my past… I’ll tell you what I did wrong… the degree to which you will put up with a difficult client is many times in direct proportion to the amount of money that client was paying us.” “So if they’re a small to medium sized client, it’s easy to be like ‘I’m going to fire you,’ because it’s not worth the headache. If they’re 15, 20, 30% of your revenue for the year, you’re going to hesitate more.” When you “stick it out” with a client for too long and allow them to enter into almost abusive relationships with your employees- that’s letting them stay for too long.  “What you’ve done is you’ve destroyed the relationship and trust of your employees- and that’s irreparable.” [16:43] Ken discusses Metacake’s philosophy on difficult clients:  “We have a strict no bullying policy- we don’t allow that to go on, because there are people on the other side of this thing. We work to operate with utmost respect and we expect the same in return. And so… sometimes the way of serving everybody is by, in love, not allowing consistently rude and disrespectful behavior that is hurting your team to go on.” [18:02] “One tip- I’m extremely big in working towards not making decisions based on fear. Fear-based decision making is the worst kind of decision making.” [19:23] Brad: “I do find myself making decisions based on fear and fear of losing a client, fear of losing the ability to support our payroll, fear to support my personal income.”  “I think there’s a certain amount of fear that is healthy, but a lot of times I’ve lived in the unhealthy part… and I try to combat that.” [20:15] Ken discusses conditioning yourself to not make decisions based on fear.  It’s a choice, it doesn’t just happen.  [21:15] Brad discusses the natural anxiety associated with determining how happy your client is- you are acutely aware of their expectations in regards to ROI.  #1- are we making the clients money? Are we a value? Then #2, is the direct customer being taken care of? Are their needs being taken care of. Human vs human means true feedback without emotions getting in the way is nearly impossible.  “And so for me, it always brings a sense of anxiety when I don’t know- when I have no clarity and I feel I don’t have a strong feeling, I start getting anxious.” [23:55] Bob speaks on creating false narratives for your client- “You’re trying to project your own thoughts into their head and say, ‘They must be feeling this’ and you begin to create narratives.” “The other side of the coin is to be willing to say ‘how are we doing? Rate us, give us feedback, what are we doing wrong? What are we doing right? That can create a lot of anxiety depending on your personality type, because that can potentially hit your ego really hard, right? So the trick is… am I going to live out of our ego or are we going to live out of our soul?” “A bad day for your ego is a really good day for your soul. So, I’m going to train myself to say ‘I’m going to ask them to be honest and transparent, even if it hurts,’” [25:00] “One questions I always ask is how would you- if you were to hire us- what would you consider success a year from now? How would you define success. And 9 times out of 10, they will stop for a second and say that’s a really good question.” This allows you to get honest feedback on hard expectations from your client, and also gives you the opportunity to address any unrealistic expectations. Record this interaction, write it down- this helps to eliminate some of the unknown. [29:00] Brad asks “What if you’re working with a marketing director and a CEO as well, but their visions are not aligned. Maybe you’ve worked with one for longer than the other… if you satisfy one, you’ll actually not be satisfying the other… who do you serve? Your bosses boss, when you have a rapport? Or do you serve your direct contact?” [30:15] Ken: “As an agency owner, you don’t realize the level of responsibility that you might actually have…” [31:06] Brad discusses “showing them the beach” meaning, show them the results that they’re both seeking so as to contrast their visions for them. Show them that they aren’t aligned and let them say ‘Yes this is my vision’ or ‘No this isn’t what I want’, let them connect those dots on their own.  [32:20] Bob asks “Do either of you guys have a process for getting client feedback? And if you do, how do you implement that feedback int productive ways within your organization?  [32:36] Ken: “We use a few different methods- a survey midway through that we try to get someone to fill out and then discuss in-person.” Long-term engagements are relationships that are trying to get to a unified goal.  Discussing with clients that they have a responsibility to follow through, “We aren’t you and we can’t be you- we can only do our best to help you get there.” By nature of a long-term engagement you don’t want feedback at the end, but throughout so that you can adjust for their success.  “You want that feedback, and then also you need to have your metrics for success that are mutually agreed upon.” [36:00] Brad asks “What if you feel like your client doesn’t even value filling that out for you? Do you press hard into them and say ‘You need to fill this out, or do you finally just say, you know what, you’re just not going to be able to give us any feedback and therefore we can’t help you if there’s an issue.” Ken: “...if you can frame it in a way that allows them to know that the feedback allows us to be better, to adjust and serve you better…” [37:52] Bob stresses the importance of HOW you ask for feedback. “The Google review is a powerful way for you to let the world know what you think of our team and our company. This helps promote our unique business model, therefore, is priceless to us.” This is putting the power back in their hands- it’s all in “the ask.”  [39:40] Ken talks about another strategy: “If you serve a higher purpose, you’re in a much greater position of strength. When you say, Okay this thing is not just here to generate some money, it’s here for a purpose and it’s fulfilling that purpose and we’re pursuing that purpose and that purpose is valuable and beneficial to the world… that helps on the fear-based side of things a lot and the strength side of things.” Client video testimonials- are a weird concept that aren’t often very passionate and energetic. “We talk about Growing Brands that Matter- what if we do a podcast-style video towards the end of the project when the relationship has been established. So you tell them ‘Your brand is a brand that matters, and it’s important. Let’s sit down and discuss that the purpose of it would be to help other people on the journey that you’re on.’” Those mindset changes that allow them to open up and talk about their challenges and victories are invaluable.  [44:00] Brad: Having clients on your Podcast, in a video with you, they become a true cheerleader for your agency.  It builds a relationship that allows them to see past “I’m spending X amount of dollars on one X amount of return”, and instead see you as real people that really care about them and their brand. [45:22] Bob on the psychology of internal/external reactions. “If you have a client that you’re not happy with, they’re always complaining and giving you negative reviews or being a problem client- You’ve got to step back and instead of taking it personally, you have to realize… Nine times out of Ten they’re simply mirroring what’s going on in their own psyche. So whatever fear you have, remember… there’s a good chance that they’re just mirroring what’s going on inside of them and to be able to be present in the moment and… try to decipher what’s really going on.” Getting to a point where you can look at a review and say “Am I mature enough and wise enough to say there’s something else going on here and I can’t take it personally.”  Being able to come before your team and say “Okay we got some really negative feedback, but here’s what I think it going on. We have to own this. But then there’s some other stuff that maybe is not really what’s going on with us.” [47:45] Ken: “We can only control ourselves- what are we doing and going to do at an excellent level?”  Obviously we want to align our happiness AND the happiness of our clients- but that isn’t always the case. And in those situations, it isn’t our job as an agency to bring that person happiness. That’s not part of our job description. No one can make someone else happy. Ultimately you can only control what you can control and that is how you act and the work you produce. On those fronts, we run HARD for our clients. “It takes the pressure off of you, it takes the anxiety and kind of egocentric side of it away when you realize that they are people, they have good days and they have bad days.” And it’s not always your job to make their day good! [49:33] Bob asks: “Do you guys have a process to regularly sit down with your team or your staff and go through these reviews- positive or negative- do you sit down and process it? What’s the value for your whole team?” Brad: “If it’s constructive feedback, that’s definitely something we want to do. Or if it’s feedback because you were all on a conference call with a client and she wasn’t very nice.” We want to create an atmosphere that isn’t just a time for my team to bellyache and complain, or develop a negative sentiment around the client. We want to be intentionally constructive with helping our business AND their business. [52:45] Brad gives clients a “bat phone” number, for use in emergencies when they feel like nobody on your team is hearing them. Allow them the opportunity to reach out so you can meet them halfway and get the communication going. Use your experience and people-reading skills to your advantage.  [55:23] Brad: “give people props- even if they’re doing what you expect, still give them props. Because what it does is it empowers them to do an even better job.” [56:32] Ken: The ONE thing that magically can motivate people:  GRATITUDE. “When people give you unsolicited positive feedback, it can go so much farther than all the negative feedback.” “As a leader, the way you motivate someone is not by only beating them down. That doesn’t help you get to where you want to be… Don’t hold back your frustrations and negative feedback, but balance it in a way that gets you to your goal… you need to give them positive feedback and tell them when they’re doing really, really great. Do more of this, do less of this, this was okay, but it can be done better.” [59:00] Ken: “Think about when your clients give you gratefulness, how much more are you willing to go above and beyond.”  [1:00:05] Bob discusses being genuine: “The key I think is being genuine… look for opportunities to be genuine, to really be human and engaged and empathetic with your team member or your client.” Model the way that you’d like for them to treat you and you will hopefully see that in return.

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, we talk about the importance of education and experience when starting out in software development and how things change when you move from making your products to running your business. From books and online resources to bootcamps and higher education programs, Jamon, Ken, and Todd share their stories, insights, and opinions for every level of professional. Show Links & Resources Lambda School Austin Allred on Twitter Epicodus Airtable Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: Today's topic is education. I actually don't recall what this topic's about. Ken, do you recall? KEN MILLER: Yeah. Well, it's this question that kind of comes up periodically about developers and CS degrees and that kind of thing. I think there was a Twitter thread a little while back in Jamon's feed, because Jamon's feed is the only feed that matters. TODD: That's a fact. Yeah. KEN: Yeah, do you remember who that was, Jamon? JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah. The question was, "I have 10 years experience developing sites, but I have no formal education. What are your thoughts on experience versus education? Been thinking of getting a front end development tech degree from Treehouse, but I'm not sure if it's worth the time and money." Yeah. That is a question that does come up fairy regularly. KEN: For that specific question, I think the answer is no, it's probably not worth it, right? If you have 10 years of experience, and you're going to go take basically a practical degree, don't bother. JAMON: Right. KEN: But there are definitely nice things about getting a real CS degree, but getting a job is not necessarily the best reason to do it. JAMON: Right. KEN: If that make sense. TODD: I would totally agree with that. Well, just to start out, the three of us, Jamon nor I have finished college, nor do we have any CS degrees. I learned to program on my own when I was a child, probably started when I was 12. And then I started programming professionally when I was about 24, and then I learned basically on the job. Ken went to Harvard and got a CS degree there. Jamon, you are similar to me, right? JAMON: I was pretty similar to you, yeah. TODD: Yeah. So what I usually tell people, A, now, when I'm hiring people and I'm not representative of everyone, so it's quite a bit different, I do a cursory glance of their resume, maybe. That's less relevant to me than what they can do. In my opinion, developers is a portfolio job, which means the work you've done is hugely more important than any kind of education. Now, obviously if you do have a CS degree, I do find people want CS degrees, they understand some concepts that you maybe don't use day-to-day, and when they do come up, they have a much better understanding of that. Sometimes it's easier to teach them new ideas, because they have the analogy in their mind already. So it's definitely worth it. I would say, my short answer and I'd love to expand on this further in this podcast, but my short answer is you need to learn what you need to learn in order to produce work product, which means develop software, develop websites, develop apps. And everyone has a different way of learning. For some people, school is the best way. For me, school always bored the hell out of me to be honest, and it wasn't the best way for me, but there's no exact right way for everyone. It's just however it works best for you. JAMON: Yeah. And I think that part of this is how much access and opportunity you have, because certainly college is one fairly proven path toward gaining an opportunity to access the job market, to get enough skills that you're hireable out of the gate, and then to access the job market and actually get a little bit of exposure, whether it's through an internship or something like that. So that plays into this as well, if your dad was a software engineer or something, and he has contacts that you can talk to and maybe get some opportunities, then maybe you don't need that, maybe you don't need to go down that road. But there are few other factors here as well. Some of them are personal goals, like what type of programming, like Todd was saying, what type of programming you want to do, how much debt you're willing to take on, how much you can take on. And then also, in some cases, very specific cases, the prestige of the university can be a factor because it certainly opens doors for Ken that Todd and I don't have. TODD: I do want to interject real quick before you jump in, Ken. Going to university has many, many benefits that have nothing to do with getting a job, and those are a super valuable if you have the opportunity. They're worth it. But specifically about a job is what I was talking about. KEN: As a life experience, college is great. If you have the opportunity, you should probably do it. Getting a job as a programmer per se is not a good reason to go to college in my opinion. Now, if what you want to do is get a job at Google, or one of the places that is well-known for preferring CS graduates, especially from elite schools, then you should do that, you absolutely should do that. You're going to have a much, much, much harder time doing that. But also, more to the point, Google has I think fairly reasonable case for it in certain ways, because they are actually dealing with the high level intense CS concepts more than your typical programmer job. TODD: Correct. KEN: Now, I think where the problem comes in the market is that if Goggle does it, then we should do the same thing and then we'll be successful like Google. And the vast majority of companies out there do not need that. And I can also definitely tell you, from my own experience, from the people that I've watched, is that getting a CS degree, they're teaching you the fundamentals of how computers work. In Harvard's case especially. They're very much on the theory stuff. But even a more typical CS degree is very much about the background, the hopefully unchanging fundamentals, and not so much how do you design a build system. Todd? TODD: Yeah. I want to rant a little about a CS degree. CS, I'm sure all of you know is computer science. It is really that, it's computer science. Scientists don't make things. They discover things, and they ponder about things. For example, a physicist and a chemist may work together to make some sort of new alloy, but they're not going to design an airplane. That's what engineers do. If you get a computer science degree, you learn the science of computers. You could actually get a computer science degree, and correct me if I'm wrong Ken, and not learn to program at all. KEN: That would be pretty rare. You do have to know some programming in order to do a lot of the things that they teach you- TODD: But you could do like abstract programming that doesn't actually work. Like, say you're developing an algorithm. It's not- KEN: Yeah. I would say that would be pretty atypical, but there's definitely classes that don't require a lot of coding. TODD: I'm exaggerating to make a point. KEN: Some of it is straight up math. Yeah. TODD: Right, which is different than engineering. KEN: Well, and a good engineer should understand the science obviously. Yeah. JAMON: And I think one of the things to know is that, in my career certainly, and I'd like to hear from both you, Todd and Ken, I haven't noticed a huge market difference between the software engineers that I work with that have degrees, versus those that do not. I often don't know which of them have degrees and which do not. It's not always a strong correlation between their ... or it hasn't been a strong correlation in my career with performance. I think there's some characteristics that are positives for people that come from a CS degree background versus others who maybe come from a bootcamp background, or Todd and myself maybe learned out of a book basically and experience, but in my experience it's not something that is ... there may be differences, but they're not significant. TODD: I think it depends on the situation. When you teach people you notice it more. For experienced people, people who have a decade under their belt, no, there's no different. For new people, someone who comes out of school with a CS degree will understand concepts, and I think it's easier to teach them to be honest, in that way. Real quick, I personally started ... well, I started programming privately, but that was just me programming games and that kind of stuff, stuff I enjoyed personally. But professionally, I started building software. So I started out as a builder, a maker, over the years formed myself into an engineer, and then during that, got interested in the CS stuff and learned that stuff too. So I got to the same result, just in a different path. KEN: That's totally true. You can absolutely learn all this stuff on your own later if you're that kind of person. I think what the reliance on CS degrees doesn't really take into account, is that 90% of programming out there is essentially business automation, for a loose definition of business, but it's basically business automation. I mean, yes, okay, there's sort of a sector on high performance computing, or scientific simulations. Honestly, the one that in some ways benefits the most from formal education, believe it or not, is games, because there you need the linear algebra and the harder math, and your performance constraint in ways that mean you're more likely to be coming up with novel algorithms than you are in your typical business program. Jamon? JAMON: It's surprising how rare it is to encounter those types of situations in typical applications, like mobile applications and web. You just don't really run into it. KEN: Right. So, the kind of people who are going to excel at your, like I said, very typical business automation, style programming, user interface design, et cetera, et cetera, are actually going to be people who sometimes were not computer people before, because they're going to have more connection and empathy with the target users. And that ends up making more of a difference to the success of software projects in many cases than your facility with the computer itself. TODD: Yeah. Let me give you a real example from myself, because I started out very practical, and then later got interested in the CS concepts and stuff. Just purely for my own interest and stuff, and that did help to a point in my engineering career, but I did a project circa 2001 or something like that, and we would display, as a website, and we would display a map for the user, and they click somewhere else on the map and we had to calculate, based on the pixel difference between where we knew they were and where they clicked, the difference in direction and distance from the original spot. Now, this required spherical geometry, and the earth actually is not a sphere. It's a little bit like a football actually, to a slight extent. In this case, someone who had a more CS background may have jumped into this easier. I actually had books on my shelf, like college algebra, and college geometry and stuff like that, and I would review these things. And I learned how to do it. It was a successful project and it was very fun, but that's an example because I came from a practical place I had to look that up. Now, on the flip side, I've worked with people with PhDs in computer science, and no offense, bless their hearts, but they would work for two weeks and accomplish literally nothing. And then you'd ask them, "Was that done?" They were like, "I didn't know it was urgent." Well, it was an hour task. That's two weeks ago. And I think they're on a different academic time, because they spent so many years in school, it's just a difference. KEN: Which is, again, not to denigrate the usefulness of them. They're just useful in very specific circumstances and not as general programmers. Jamon? JAMON: I kind of see it as, to use an analogy, like when you're lifting weights, if you lift weights in a way that is very functional, they call it functional, where it's almost like you're lifting a box or ... yes, Todd? TODD: Jamon, for our listeners who may not be familiar with this concept, can you explain what lifting weights is? JAMON: It is this theoretical thing that supposedly some people do. TODD: Can you do it inside of your own home? JAMON: I do now. I built a gym actually. But yes, you lift weights for health. And one of the ideas is that you do this sort of functional strength, where it's something that actually builds up the muscles for lifting boxes, and carrying children, and moving things. So it's very much like you're doing those types of movements, but just with heavier weights. It just makes you stronger in those ways. And then there's other things where you're isolating specific muscles in a way that you would never really do in a day-to-day basis. And university can sometimes be more like that, where you are exercising those muscles, you are making them stronger, but you're not doing it in a way that necessarily replicates what you do in real life. And I think both are necessary. If you just do functional strength training, it will get you so far, but you won't ever hit certain muscles because, like we talked about intense performance or whatever, you might not actually be using those aspects of your brain in a day-to-day basis. But they are good to have for when you need them. So I think that's a decent analogy of what we're talking about here. I think that one of the criticisms that I've had of some of the higher education programs, is that they don't do particularly great job of replicating the real world of what people will actually be doing once they actually get into the job market. You can create a binary tree algorithm, but can you move this button over four pixels to the right? Which is often your first task when you get to work. TODD: Yeah. And I would say that it really depends on the person. In an idea world, if money is no constraint, time is no constraint, yeah, of course I would love to go to university and stuff. But on the flip side, I'm a very practical person and I like to build things, I like to make things. So maybe I went for a few years, but maybe if I would have went that route I wouldn't liked it as much. I would have preferred to just jump in and start getting things done. I think for me ideally was 18, I started doing it, actually doing it for three or four years, and then go to university for maybe two years, and enjoy learning all the concepts I didn't learn. That would have probably been pretty cool for me. JAMON: I realized we're kind of leaning more heavily on the criticism side of this, but one of the criticisms of universities is that they optimize for rewards, like extrinsic rewards. Like, I got this degree, I got this piece of paper, or I did what was necessary to get an A. Where learning to accomplish something to actually expand your mind is a little bit of a different thing. When I started my business I needed to build a website, I had a website to build, and I didn't know how to do it. For me, when I was learning from a book, it was very, very applicable. Like, okay, in order to make a menu, I need to know how to do these things, and it was very, very applicable. Very, very directly applicable. KEN: Well, I'm going to make the positive case ... TODD: Please. KEN: ... for going in and doing it. One is, fair or not, it does open doors. TODD: Correct. KEN: Especially if you're in a good program, but even if you're not, it is used as a hiring filter in a lot of places. I think it's wrong but it's true. That's the very practical sort of level. But to be honest, there's definitely things that I learned there that can save you trouble. I mean, I think they said that what makes a 10x programmer is that they know what not to program. So for example, even the theory class. The theory, computability theory, computational complexity, these sorts of things are more valuable than you might think in certain ways. For example, you're at your start-up. Your boss says, "I want the optimal route to plan on this map. I want to be 100% guaranteed the best route." And you can say, "That's the traveling salesman problem, and it's actually a known hard problem," for example. And it's the kind of thing where it can steer you away from harder problems and towards easier problems. And in engineering frequently what you want to do, you're like, "Let's find a good heuristic instead of trying to solve this optimally." JAMON: It may not give you the answer, but it will give you a framework around the problems that are out there, and the classes of problems that are out there. KEN: Yeah. TODD: Yeah. And I really appreciate that from people who have a higher education than myself. While people were talking, I was thinking of this story. I interviewed for this job, and this guy was asking me technical questions, as they do, and he was a young guy at the time. I was probably 34, he was probably 10 years younger than that or more. And he asked me a question. I don't remember what it was the exact question, but basically he wanted me to accomplish a task, and what he was looking for is how I would technically approach this problem. But I've been an engineer for a long time, and I know what's really important, and I know it makes a 10 times engineer, which is often not actually programing that. So I started off by challenging the fact that he even needed this at all. And logically, he didn't, and he couldn't really explain why he would, so I gave him additional other options that would make this application or this software work much better. Not the answer that he was looking for. But it was the real answer. I used to say a saying all the time. I don't say it much anymore, which is, "There is no code as fast as no code." So in this case, I was just removing his entire problem from him. KEN: I would say it can help you avoid reinventing certain wheels, which might mean that you don't get some amazing solution, because you weren't ignorant enough to know that it couldn't be done. Everyone loves those stories, but 99% of the time that's not how the story goes. And in fact, to the point, I don't know if we're ready to segue into the business conversation we probably we will in a minute, but none of us have any business education. And I'm starting to wonder if it would be worth it to go get like an EMBA or something, so that we're not reinventing so many wheels. I don't know if we're ready for that conversation yet. Jamon, you wanted to say one more thing? JAMON: I have a bunch of other things to say, but I'll intersperse them here. I think that one of the things ... well, Todd actually alluded to this earlier, but the network that you get from going to university for four years with often some of the same people throughout, you get to know them, you do projects together, they have opportunities. A lot of them go on to be quite successful. And being connected to those people in that way is something that lasts for a lifetime. And that's definitely something that should not be undervalued. That's a big advantage, that's something that I did not have. In fact, the only way for me to access a network like that was through ... well, I shouldn't say the only way, but the way that I accessed a network like that was through open source later. TODD: It's true. There's a lot of overeducated crappy engineers doing very well out there. It's true. KEN: It is true. TODD: I mean, it is really true. CHRIS: I was just going to add too, it's fascinating when we have this conversation today. It seems like it's been increasingly becoming more popular to question whether to go to school, or rely upon the tool. So what is it about today that allows us to even question the path forward, that maybe we weren't able to in the past? KEN: We're going to queue that clip from Silicon Valley now. TODD: Yeah. I think it has nothing to do with our particular industry, or development, or any of that stuff. I think it's just because the cost of university education is so extreme right now, that you naturally have to question if it's worth such a huge burden. It wasn't that way for me in the early '90s. I could work and pay for my own college at that time, which I did. That's not possible these days. JAMON: I'm going to agree and disagree with Todd there. I think the cost is definitely a factor, but I also think that this industry is a big factor in that we don't have ... my brother-in-law is a mechanical engineer. He couldn't just go and start mechanical engineering. He can't go out there and just do that. TODD: He could. It's just governed by law. JAMON: Yeah. You have to be a licensed engineer. It's a very- TODD: But there's no reason he couldn't do that if it wasn't for laws. JAMON: There may be a path to becoming a mechanical engineer that doesn't involve university, but it's very hard. I at least know of an architect that did it without going to university and getting a degree. But that is something ... we have a lot of these professional, professions actually have degrees that sort of ... they're barriers to entry. And in order to get through that, the accepted path is to go through universities. Ours does not have that. We can start building websites, or building whatever, just by convincing someone to pay us to do that. KEN: I think there's two points actually. One is part of the disconnect between mechanical engineers and software engineers is that when mechanical engineers fail, people die. JAMON: That's true. KEN: In many cases. That's sometimes true for software engineers too, but it's more true with mechanical engineers. And as a result- JAMON: My brother-in-law works at a plant where if he screws up, there will be hydrogen peroxide blowing miles high in the air. KEN: Yeah. So the stakes are often higher. JAMON: Yes. KEN: But also, if you want to be a serious chemical engineer, there's a lot of capital requirements for any of the things that you're doing, apart from the safety concerns, and that's very real. You're not just going to work on your own because you can't get them, whereas the capital requirements for being a software engineer are extraordinarily low. The access to education materials is extraordinarily high. And you can just try in almost literally anything that you can find out there for education material, you can try with a $500 computer. So there's so many things about the technology world that are in many ways unprecedented, and that's why you're seeing this massive sea change in the economy as it starts to take over more and more of it. And one of our missions here is to help more people in more places be part of that. So getting the message out that although CS degrees are helpful if you have the opportunity, go ahead and do it if it interests you, but it's not necessary if you just want to be part of this. JAMON: Yeah. And one of the things that is very apparent, is that there's a lot more resources available now online for learning. You don't have to go to college to get the education because it's often on YouTube, or you can look through GitHub. There's all these resources, there's online courses. These are things that are very valuable, and they're self-driven. When I first started wanting to learn Objective-C and building iOS apps, I bought an iPad 2 and I went to iTunes U and started watching the Stanford courses on there, and following along with those. So I was able to basically watch Stanford lectures for free, and follow along, and do what they were doing. That was tremendously valuable to me. And all of those resources are very interesting. What's very interesting also is that very few people actually take advantage of this. Everybody with an internet connection essentially has access to these, to the same thing I did. TODD: Which is pretty much everyone in the United States at least. JAMON: Right. And yet, it's a very tiny fracture of a percent that actually take advantage of that. TODD: Well, I would like to, for those of you who have this question and don't have a lot of opportunity for various reasons to go to university, I would give you my kind of recommendation. I forget who said this, I'm not going to attribute it to anyone because I don't remember who it was, but if you want to be a writer, write. If you want to be a poet, write poetry. When you've written a million words, you're a writer. When you've written 100,000 words, you're a writer. You have to write. You'd be amazed how many people want to do something and actually don't do it. In our industry, it's very possible to be a very successful software engineer by just doing it. But even, we mentioned mechanical engineering which does have some legal constraints for sure. But I don't know if anyone's ever seen the movie October Sky. It was in the late '90s. It was about a NASA engineer called Homer Hicksam (Homer Hickam) I think. He was a son of a coal miner and he loved rocket engineering. And he just did it, and he did it, and he did it, and he did it, and eventually without ever having an education, he did it for NASA, and he was a very famous and successful engineer at NASA. So, I don't recommend that route for such things, but it is possible. And I don't care who you are, or what profession you're in, if you just spend a crap load of time doing it, you're going to rise above everyone else. Another great story I have, I read this book. It was about this guy who was really into etymology. Entomology, not etymology which is the study of the origins of words. Entomology, which is the study of insects. He came from a very poor family, and he was in Alabama, and he got into the University of Alabama for biology. I believe he got a scholarship because he couldn't afford it, but the day one he showed up, he went to the head of the biology, the college or probably ... I don't know what it was, but wherever the college of biology is. Ken will correct me. This shows my education here. Anyways, he went up to the head and he said, "For the last two years I've been cataloging the ants of Alabama." And no one had ever done this. So on day one he was put in charge of something very important at the university because of this, simply because he just did it. He didn't ask permission. He just did it. So if you want to become a developer, regardless if you have the opportunity to go to school or not, you just have to start developing. Get into open source, publish stuff, start creating your portfolio and just do it. I'm not going to recommend this at all, but if you dropped out of high school at 16 and started programming and put a lot of work into it, by the time you're 18, 19, you're going to have a high paying job. That's a fact. Don't do that, kids, but- JAMON: Yeah. If Cedric's listening to this, stay in school. TODD: But you totally could do this, but it does require a lot of ... a lot of times people go to the university and those kind of paths because they don't have the kind of internal- KEN: And by the way, if you're that person, you probably already know. TODD: I don't necessarily think so, because- KEN: I mean, if it's flowing out of you so much that you just can't stop doing it basically, that's usually the kind of person who makes it that way. TODD: I agree, but I think- JAMON: Well, that was me at that age for sure. TODD: I think a lot of those people don't know that it's possible, because they don't have an example of it being possible. JAMON: That's exactly right, and that was actually me at that age. At 16 I was coding every day. Every day I would go home and that's what I would do. I mean, I'd do homework on the bus. I didn't do it at home. I coded at home. But I had no role models that were programmers. Well, I had one but he worked in San Francisco and he had been to college, and I thought that was the path. So I didn't really have that sense. And I was doing some pretty complex games and stuff, and figuring things out on my own because I didn't have internet at that time. TODD: Yeah. Well, back in my day I had a book budget, because the only way to learn was from books. There was nothing online, because there wasn't online. I had a book budget where hopefully I could buy a book every couple of months, add to my collection. But anyways, if you get nothing else and you're aspiring to be a developer, I give you permission just to do it. JAMON: Another option is code bootcamps. We actually have at least one, maybe a few others that have been to bootcamps here at Infinite Red, and we found them to be quite valuable for getting people up to speed on frameworks, on languages, on sort of the technical skills, and just getting the familiarization and understanding that they can learn these things. Often it doesn't teach them everything, but it gets them the confidence that they need to move forward with it. I think bootcamps are definitely an option, and there's many good ones. We've worked with Epicodus here in Portland, and there's others as well. KEN: They're especially helpful I think for people who have some kind of technical or quantitative background but just need to learn to code. JAMON: Right. KEN: Per se. Yeah. JAMON: Yeah. It's a good way if you're switching to a second career, or something like that. Another one that I'm actually a really big fan of is Austen Allred's Lambda University. Now, this one's got a really unique model. It's a little more intense than a bootcamp I think. It's a fairly solid higher education option. They have a lot of success stories coming from it. But one of the really unique things that Austen's doing there is they do not charge tuition upfront. Essentially they will take a percentage of your income if you make above, I think it's $60,000 or something a year. Once you get a job that's above $60,000 a year, they'll take 17% of it for up to two years, and there's a cap. Like, $30,000 or something. TODD: That's amazing. I love that. JAMON: Yeah. And if you never get a job in that range, then you never pay it back. The debt is forgiven. TODD: That's a really cool idea. I love that. JAMON: Yeah. Yeah. It really is great. And apparently the financial model's been working for his university. It's an online one so it's very accessible and they're actually finding that they have a much more diverse student body because of the fact that someone who doesn't have a lot of means, doesn't have a lot of support, they can go to school online, they don't have to pay anything upfront. They're even good about trying to support them financially during the time that they're in the university. It's a really great model. I'm a big fan. Lambda School or Lambda University I think it's called. TODD: We'll put that in the show notes. JAMON: Yeah. And Austen's doing a good job with that. He also, if you follow him on Twitter, he's got some really great thoughts on education. I like what he tweets about. TODD: Yeah. I guess in summary there's many ways to get there. If you are a maker, like I always was ... even when I was a kid I constantly made things, I think my path might be an interesting idea. If you have the means to go to university, by all means do it for sure. If it's going to be a huge financial burden, I would definitely give it some serious thought before incurring that burden. CHRIS: I'm curious how you approach education "Once you make it." What does it look like on a daily basis to learn new things, be challenged by new things, or even challenge the people that you work with as well? JAMON: All you need to do is listen to this podcast religiously. TODD: It sounds ridiculous but it's absolutely true. Continuing education. That's a good one. Truthfully, for a software engineer, if you can't teach yourself every day, you're going to have trouble because whatever you knew last year ... I've been doing this for 22 years and I think that number changes every time I say it. I started in '96 so whatever that comes up to. JAMON: We're software engineers. We're not very good at math. TODD: Yes. That's a fact. But you have to learn new stuff. The stuff you worked on two years ago is not what you're working on today. It's constantly learning new stuff. Now, you learn certain patterns and certain ideas that you use over and over again, and you start as you get a lot of experience you start realizing how we're kind of just redoing the same thing over and over for the last 40 years. JAMON: Yeah. Ken, didn't you do an exercise where you learned a whole bunch of languages, and you wrote the same program several times? KEN: Yeah. It was fun. I had fun with it, and then it literally burnt me out of programming for a long time. JAMON: How many did you do? KEN: I got through ... I don't know. 20 or 30. JAMON: Wow. Yeah, so that's what Todd's talking about, is this sort of recurring theme that you see over and over. KEN: Yeah. And after a while it was just like, it was the same approach over, and over, and over, and over. JAMON: It became a lot easier to learn your 20th and 21st and 22nd. Yeah. KEN: Yeah. I always recommend people learn three or four languages, just for their own edification. A lisp, a low level of imperative language, C, C++, even Java, a dynamic language like Ruby or Python. JAMON: And then something like Haskell or Elm or something. KEN: Or actually something like Prolog or Erlang is actually probably more interesting than ... Haskell's great, but more interesting than that because it really makes you think about it in a different way. If you learn those, you can learn anything at that point. JAMON: I think one of the things that really helps me is I have this insatiable curiosity about concepts and computer science. I love reading about it, I'm on Twitter a lot and that's a good place to source new information. You can watch videos. Other people learn in different ways. I know one of our engineers will troll through GitHub. He'll actually jump into a package.json file which we- TODD: I don't know if, "Troll" is the right word, but yeah. JAMON: Well, trolling as in fishing. And he'll look at the dependencies of a particular well known thing, and look at what they use, and then go look at those and see how people code. It's a very cool way to learn. Other people, they'll learn by pairing with other programmers, they'll learn obviously by experience. Some people read books. We have one of our- TODD: Watch videos. JAMON: Yes, watching videos. One of our developers decided to learn ... this is Darin Wilson. He decided to learn Ecto, which is the database layer for Elixir. He decided to learn that by writing a book about it. And apparently that's been quite educational for him. He's learned a ton in teaching. TODD: Yeah. Don't do that, kids. It's a lot of work. That's kind of a lot about software engineering and that kind of stuff, but we're also, on the other side ... and we probably lost all the entrepreneurs by now, so I guess we should do this first. But on the other side is education when it comes to being an entrepreneur, running your own small business, running a larger business, that kind of stuff. JAMON: I learned first I would say by watching my dad. He was a small business owner, so I learned some basics there. I did know quite a few small business owners, and I did talk to them. I would go out to coffee with them or whatever, and just ask them questions. But it was very much a learn as I go type of a situation, learn as I had to. How do you do payroll? I had no idea. I hired a bookkeeper who taught me how to do payroll and did most of it, which was nice. How do you market? I had no idea. That was a whole thing that I had to learn. How do you do sales? I mean, I just plopped myself in front of people and tried to do the best I could, and tried to learn from it. That's probably not the way I would recommend going though. TODD: We did engineer our sales process by the way. JAMON: Once we merged companies, then Todd and I started doing sales together, and we had a much more engineery approach to it. It was good. Actually have a feedback loop, and we would try to build our experience over time. I have read some business books, I've watched some business videos, but for whatever reason software engineering, education has always been more ... I guess got more traction with education on that side. With business stuff that always seems so abstract and not directly applicable. KEN: I'm definitely at a point where I'm feeling like I could use some formal education honestly. The MBA is not what it used to be in terms of guaranteed high paying work. Even elite MBAs are not what they used to be in that regard. But I wouldn't downplay the value of the network building that they bring. But what they can't teach you, what no school could teach you, is what it's like to stare at your bank account and wonder if you're going to make payroll this month and how you handle that. I mean, it might mean that you know a good banker who can help you, but it doesn't teach you what that feels like. It can teach you about negotiation, but it doesn't teach you how to actually sit at a table with somebody who's got a lot more money and power than you. There's a reason that even regular business schools prefer that you go out and work some place for a little while before you go there. And I think that the EMBA route, if you're going for formal education, is probably a pretty good one, because then you have really embedded yourself. You have a very felt experience of what these things are like, so when you go to that negotiation class, or that finance class, or whatever, you get it. It's going to land someplace for you emotionally, that it wouldn't for a kid out of school. JAMON: What's an EMBA? KEN: Executive MBA, meaning a lot of the business schools will offer these programs frequently, nights or weekends, even at a high level, so it's right where you as a person who already runs a business can go and fill in your skillset. TODD: Interesting. KEN: And hobnob with other people like you. Yeah. And they're not cheap. TODD: Yeah, that makes sense especially if they're geared towards executives. My path was way too long. So, if you want to do it fast don't take my path, but this is my third company and I feel like I finally became a business person on my third company. That's a long time, and that wasn't three companies in three years. That was three companies in 15 years. I definitely wouldn't go my route. I think one of the things ... I mean, there's different aspects of business, right? Ken alluded to some of them. Financing, super important. If you're not making money, if you're not negotiating good deals with your vendors, or employees or whatever, if you're not keeping it cashflow where you can pay payroll, you're sunk, so that's very important. The other thing is, your management and leadership skills. As you grow, you're going to have a team, so that's very important. That's not something you super easily learned from a book. I think even things like accounting theory ... Ken, I don't know if you want me to share this story. Well, I'll just say it and we can cut it if you don't want it. This is kind of a funny story. When Ken and I first started this business, this was my third, but this was Ken's first business. And we were going over our accounting and he was telling me all about accounting theory, and he knew it very well, but I don't remember what it was, but it was something like I said, "We should get our P&L," and you had no idea what that was. It's a profit and loss report. KEN: I don't think that that was what it was. I don't think that's what it was. I don't remember what it was, because I knew what a P&L is. TODD: Maybe it was AR, account receivable? It was something very basic. KEN: Well, we had a long running argument about cash verus accrual accounting as I recall. TODD: Right. So regardless of what it was, and I don't mean to insult Ken whatsoever, but that's actually not uncommon. My wife's an accountant and she was trained at university for that and then she worked as a corporate accountant for a long time and worked her way up to a fairly high level. The day-to-day, just like in programming, you learn the concepts but once you hit the real world, the real world's so much different than anything. And I think that's true with a lot of ... KEN: I'll go into that. I was like, "I think we should do accrual accounting," and Todd's like, "I don't think so." I'm like, "Well, no. I really want to be able to ..." the benefit of accrual accounting is that you can see profit versus cashflow and it sort of gives you more information, but it's way more work, way more work. And if you haven't done it, you don't know that, so we are still a cash accounting. JAMON: Yes. TODD: Is it more work, Ken? KEN: What, accrual? TODD: Yeah. KEN: Much. TODD: Is it way more work? KEN: Much, much, much more work. Yeah. And that's something I don't really like very much. JAMON: One of the things I did well when I started my business was I forced myself to do a monthly budget. And I was doing this for my personal life too, so I just used the same skills I had there to do a budget for the business, which was much easier because I wasn't buying diapers there generally. There wasn't quite as many transactions- TODD: There's a joke in there somewhere. JAMON: Yes. There weren't as many transactions and stuff. But it was actually really great because I was able to keep a very close eye on where we were in a cash basis obviously, and then I did have accounts receivable system that I could look at to see what kind of money would be coming and do some forecasting and stuff. We've carried that forward to some extent here at Infinite Red doing the budgeting. We got away from it for a little while, but we're going to be going back and do it because it has been very helpful, even though you in some way feel like you're doing kind of double entry. TODD: Yeah. I think, gosh, business education and experience, you really have to have both. You have to study in some form, and you have to have experience. It's really challenging to be honest, compared to something more straightforward like becoming a designer or an engineer, just because it's very nebulous and very human oriented for sure. JAMON: And there's so many ways to do a business right, and there's many, many, many more ways to do it wrong. If you just follow a formula, that's not necessarily going to work. There's a lot of variables in business. TODD: And people tend to do things the way that they're comfortable with, or the way they're familiar with. It's kind of funny. My wife, she's actually a small business person now, but she's an accountant by trade as I mentioned. In accounting, they use spreadsheets to a ridiculous amount. And when I say ridiculous amount I mean they're super familiar with spreadsheets, very advanced spreadsheets, so if there is a task, they throw a spreadsheet at it. Now, as a programmer, my first thought was database. So, my first company, I did my accounting like a database, which probably wasn't great but it's what I understood. And that's what people do, they apply. So my wife Heather and I, sometimes I've went there and said, "That's cool, but you know, if we use a database this will be much easier." And I set her up with a great product called Airtable, and she switched from a spreadsheet for that particular thing to the database, and she loves it. And then looking at some of her spreadsheets, for example, as a programmer, if I needed a particular report for finances, I would assume I'd make a report and I would use a system to make a report and stuff. But for her it's super common to extract data from multiple sources, stick it into a pre-made spreadsheet and have the spreadsheet be the report. This is what accountants do all day. It seems more manual, but it's actually faster and more convenient. So as a person who's not educated, maybe not educated in starting a small business, or taking a long route like we do, you'll find that you're doing things that you know how to do. It may not be right, but you kind of get them done. And it's good to look, at some point, when you have time, to look how the professionals do it, so you can do it more efficiently. KEN: Well, and I want to piggyback on that, which is that one of the harder things that we've learned is to do some things manually, that there's real value in doing things manually and personally, and not trying to automate it. Like Todd says, when we think we need a report, the first we're going to go like, "Hm. We should write a report so we don't have to do it ourselves over and over again." Wrong. Wrong, unless you're- JAMON: We need the education- KEN: Unless you're Ford, unless you're a massive company that has already a very dialed in process, automating as a small company is sometimes counterproductive. Not only does it take a long time, a big time upfront, but then you are locked in and can't change it. You can, but now all changes are expensive. And two, there's real value to human eyes going and looking at the stuff and compiling it. And that was very hard for me to learn because, like a lot of people, I got into computers because I'm lazy, and I wanted the computer to do all the work for me. But there's no substitute for human eyes on the problem, in many cases. TODD: It's funny, because we're all engineers and designers, the way we do reports at work is we have an artificial intelligence chat bot in Slack that produces the reports for us. That's such an us way of doing things, it's hilarious. JAMON: If it's okay, before we wrap up here, I'm going to bring this back to universities for a second. I think this is actually a really important thing to get across to people who are considering that path. If your state offers ... here in Washington State it's called Running Start, but essentially the ability to go into a small community college that's nearby your high school, and get your first two years done for free. The K-12 system actually pays for your college, for the first two years. That's really helpful, and there's really no reason not to do that. That's a great way to get started. Secondly, if you are going to go to a university, unless it's something like Harvard, or maybe Stanford, you should really avoid private universities, especially for-profit universities. Those are really terrible. You really don't want to go that direction. KEN: Well, I want to draw a very clear distinction between private and for-profit. JAMON: Yes, of course. KEN: There's a lot of very good private schools. If you can afford them, go for it. A lot of them are really great, great education. for-profit schools completely different. JAMON: Todd and Ken, I'm not sure if you know this, but one of the things that ... well, you do know this. One of the things that for-profit universities do is they prey on disadvantaged students and stuff. They'll go and sign them up. And they actually did that at my school and I was actually signed up and accepted to one of these universities, which would have been an incredibly expensive education. I'm not sure what the quality would have been, but very, very expensive. And I backed out, but for a while I was thinking this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to this university for a computer science degree. And you just need to stay clear of them. It's not worth it. They're often predatory, they're just bad. TODD: Not to be confused. One thing I want to do mention is ... sorry to interject, Jamon. The Code Academies are for-profit also, but those- JAMON: Yeah. That's much different though. TODD: That's different. KEN: Yeah. We're not going to mention any of the names of the for-profit universities, because we don't want to get sued, but ... JAMON: They're bad, yes. KEN: They're bad. JAMON: But there're a lot of really great state universities they can go to. A really great way to go is to do ... your Running Start type program for two years and then go for the next two years at a state university and you can get a degree. And it's honestly relatively inexpensive. CHRIS: One of the things that I would love to add, regardless of what you do, whether you're an engineer, or a designer, or a founder of a company, one of the best ways to learn is actually to teach what you know to other people. TODD: Good point. CHRIS: So that when you don't understand something, you're going to dive in to learn it so that you can explain it to someone else, and that's where oftentimes I found that theory and practical knowledge combine and multiply. TODD: I think that's fantastic. I would totally agree. I've taught a handful of programmers throughout my career, from nothing into professionals, and nothing teaches you like teaching. It was a big boon. As for business education, we talked about that as a combination of education, however you get that, and experience. But if you want to be an entrepreneur, there is absolutely no excuse. Today is Tuesday when we're recording this. You can go down right no, go to Costco if you don't have a Costco card go to Walmart, buy bottled waters. They're really cheap. You're going to get 24 pack, whatever, for whatever it is. So basically you're paying pennies for each bottle. Go down to the beach, or wherever in your local town where people hang out, and sit there and sell bottled waters for about 30 minutes. KEN: Until someone calls the police on you for not doing it with a permit. TODD: Correct. That's why the time thing. But you can sell. When someone's out running, or they're with their kids at the park, you can sell one of those bottled waters for $2. You bought it for 15 cents, you sold it for $2. Congratulations. You are now a business person. And it just goes up for there, and the truth is, a lot of people who want to start a business, they really want to want to start a business, they don't actually want to start a business. So I always recommend to people, do the bottled water test. If that's very unpalatable to you, you're probably not ready. Doesn't mean you won't be ready, but you're probably not ready to start that small business yet. Little advice from your uncle Todd. JAMON: I don't think I would ever go to the beach and sell bottled water unless I had to. KEN: I don't think I would do that either. TODD: People like really successful in sales people and stuff like say Mark Cuban, he did this kind of stuff. But from a young age he was a business man and his job was to find things that he'd get for X and sell for a multiple of X. And he would do anything. He would go door to door. KEN: If you're already a programmer or designer, go get yourself an LLC and put your shingle out as a one person consulting firm. It's not the same quite as business, but it gives you a little bit of a flavor for it. It takes you down that road a little bit. That was certainly what did it for me. TODD: Don't work for free. KEN: Yeah. Don't work for free. TODD: Whatever you do, don't work for free. Everyone will try to get you to work for free. Don't do it. No free bottles of water. KEN: That's a whole another conversation. TODD: Except for the cop who's arresting you for permits. KEN: Yeah. TODD: Give him a few- KEN: What if I just slipped you one of these bad boys, officer? TODD: This fine, fine water could be yours. KEN: On that note, thanks for listening everybody. JAMON: See you next time. TODD: Yes, thank you. This was Todd, and this is Jamon. No, that's not Jamon. This is Jamon- JAMON: Thank you. This ... KEN: I had a great stopping point, and Todd just had to keep talking. You just had to keep talking. TODD: Ken, I'm not the kind of person who has to have the last word. KEN: Yes, you are. TODD: I'm really not. That's funny. I'm going to stop recording.

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, Jamon, Ken, and Todd touch on the fears, anxieties, and struggles of running a business. They share stories and thoughts on starting a business, managing stress, how success and failure impact focus, the difference between venture capital and other sources of funding, fear of missing out, and the importance of knowing what you stand for. Show Links & Resources YNAB: Personal budgeting software Four Yorkshiremen by Monty Python Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: So I thought a good topic today, one of the reasons because I'm personally interested actually, hear what Jamon has to say and Ken has to say, and of course I'm sure they're interested to hear what I have to say. But the topic is when you start a new business or you're an entrepreneur doing multiple businesses, or anything of that particular area. What are some of the biggest fears, anxieties, apprehensions, that you might have you know before the process, during the process, whenever? I find this very fascinating, because I imagine a lot of people, well maybe some people who are listening are experiencing these right now and A) it'd be great to hear someone else express the same thing so they know that they're not alone in this, and B) it's kind of interesting to think about yourself. It kind of, it's not something you typically sit down and think about, so if you two don't mind, that'd be a really interesting subject for today. KEN MILLER: Sounds good. JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah. Well I think back to when I started by business. It was 2005, and I was working for a home builder at the time, so I had a, you know, decent job. It was an office job. I was doing I think cad design and marketing for this builder. Not really doing programming. But I decided that one of the things that ... well I had, prior to this time, I had thought, you know I'd be really nice to own my own business at some point. It'd be something that I would aspire to. And I think that part of that was my dad owning his own business and knowing a lot of entrepreneurs kind of played into that. I thought it would be an interesting thing. I've always been a little bit independent. Want to kind of set my own course. So I started thinking about doing this and talking with my wife, and at the time I had a six month old baby. That was my first kid, my son, who is now 13 years old. Around actually this time of year is when I decided that I was going to do this. What helped was an opportunity that came up. So the apprehension of how do I get my first customer was sort of already taken care of. My uncle had a bunch of work that he needed done, and he asked me if I wanted to do it kind of on the side, or as a business, and that gave me the confidence to pull the trigger and say, let's so this. Because I had a built-in customer right away. But I do remember the first month sending my bill over to him, and it was only eleven hundred dollars, and that was all I had earned that whole month was eleven hundred dollars. And that was a wake up call to me that, hey I can't just expect the money to come in, and that was definitely ... I sat up and noticed. TODD: Yeah, that's really interesting. So when you started ClearSight, that was your first company, correct? At that time? JAMON: That's right. Yeah, ClearSight. There were other points along the way where I was sort of I got kind of gut-punched. Many times along the way. One was when ... my first business was doing websites, but it was also doing CAD designs, so I had essentially two business, and the CAD design part of it, you know designing homes, designing remodels, those sort of things eventually dried up, because remember that was during 2008, 2009 the housing recession kind of came along and that impacted the designers first, because we were the first ones in the process. People stopped taking money, equity out of their homes to do remodels. They just stopped doing it. So basically the whole market dried up. I remember my uncle told me, "I don't have any work to send you anymore." And I had a few accounts myself, but they were pretty slow too. And I kind of sat at home for a few days and felt sorry for myself. But in typical Jamon fashion, I was like, well I guess it's time to go do this myself, so I went out and literally started knocking on doors at offices and stuff and handing out my business card. Wasn't too successful at that, but it was at least doing something, and then things turned around eventually. TODD: Since you had a new baby at home, and obviously you're married, and you're trying to support them. JAMON: Right. TODD: Did that add any worry to you at that time? JAMON: Yeah, for sure. It certainly did, because any worry that my wife felt was reflected back on me because I feel very a sense of responsibility that I need to be making sure that we're not losing our house. Making sure that we can keep food on the table, things like that. So that was a lot to process. My health definitely suffered because of it and a few other things, but there was a lot of stress involved with that. I think that if I were to go back now, knowing what I know now, I could very much have probably pulled out of it much faster. I could have found a better path, but you live and learn. TODD: I'm sure there's more to tell about that story, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts Ken. KEN: For me the biggest worry was always money. Right? I mean, since I came out here to Silicon Valley, I had the dream. I had the Silicon Valley dream for sure. I wanted to start my own company. And to a certain degree, the Silicon Valley dream as sold is not sold accurately. Right? It's sold as this sort of fantasy. And the truth of the matter is you have to have more resources than is reputed in order to do the Silicon Valley way effectively. You need to know VCs or people who know them. It helps to have affluent parents who can bankroll you not making any money for years and years and years. I'm luckier than most on all of those accounts, and even I found that very intimidating, challenging. And especially living in the Bay Area, once you have established a life in the Bay Area, the idea of not taking a salary for a couple of years is utterly terrifying if you don't have a big pile of money. In fact, I wasn't really able to do this until I had a little bit of a windfall from the Yammer acquisition to lean on. Basically just enough to let me barely scrape by for a year for which I'm still very grateful 'cause I probably wouldn't be here today if I hadn't had that. And there were some scary fricking moments. There've definitely been a few extremely close calls financially. So I don't ... that fear I think was justified and surmountable. Let me put it that way. Right? You can definitely figure that one out, but I'm not gonna lie. It can be super scary sometimes. For me, the biggest mental shift that got me where I am now is that I had always had in my head this sort of venture capital model, because that's what I knew. Right? Because that's the kind of company I'd worked for. I saw how that process basically worked. But it always felt wrong to me. Right? Like, I was always like, what's so wrong with profit? What's so wrong with actually making a business that can support itself fairly early on? And I think it was the Paul Graham post that was like, the difference between a start up and a small business. And a start up is specifically optimized for hundred S growth or nothing. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's what venture capitalists want for the most part. Right? No venture capitalist wants you to be one of the nine or ninety-nine that don't make it. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: Nevertheless, the model is set up that way. The model is set up so that only one in ten or less have to make it. And so once I realized, oh no all along I wanted to make the lifestyle business, basically, the small business. TODD: I just wanted to point out that especially in Silicon Valley the term lifestyle business is a semi-derogatory term. KEN: Pejorative, yeah. TODD: Yeah to refer to a normal, actual business. KEN: Exactly. TODD: And I always found that amusing when they said lifestyle business it was insulting you, because you make a profit. I always thought that was funny. KEN: Yeah, right. It's sort of like the Silicon Valley model is for people who would rather be a billionaire or nothing. Right? It's kinda like a shot at a billionaire is worth way more to them then a pretty good path to a millionaire. Once I realized that that was the exact opposite of me, I was much happier and I could actually work towards something that mattered. Right? And not even the millionaire part, right? It's like, if that happens, that would be awesome, but it's more creating the environment that I wished that I'd had. JAMON: When it comes to fears and those types of feelings, do you ever feel maybe that you are missing out on those wild rides? KEN: Do I have FOMO for the- JAMON: Yeah, a little bit of FOMO. KEN: Sometimes. JAMON: FOMO being, of course, fear of missing out. KEN: Yeah, living here especially. I think that's inevitable. JAMON: Right. Because we're not set up for just rocket growth at Infinite Red. KEN: I've been at enough companies that ended up making everybody thousandaires or worse. Right? Or negative thousandaires in at least one case. I had a friend, he seemed like he was living the dream. This was way back when in the first boom. Right? He seemed like he'd lived the dream. Right? He was just an engineer at a start up and he was suddenly a millionaire overnight. And then within six month, he was a negative six hundred thousandaire with a gigantic tax bill. JAMON: Oof. KEN: The whole model has kind of lured a bunch of people into the stock option thing. This is what I'm talking about specifically. I think there is absolutely a place for the venture capital model, but the stock option compensation model that a lot of people have done, is kind of a raw deal in a lot of ways, but that'd be a whole other topic, so- JAMON: Yes TODD: Just real quick, I own tons of stock and stock options that are worth absolutely zero- KEN: Yes. TODD: But, if I ever run out of toilet paper, I am set. JAMON: So Todd, you started a business well before Ken or I, and you know I actually I don't know if I've ever heard the story of your very first business and how you went from being a software engineer at a company to owning your own business, and I'd like to hear about that from the perspective of the topic of this episode which is about fears, and uncertainty and things like that. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. That's great question, so I've owned three businesses. This hopefully is my last one here at Infinite Red. My first one was in 1999. We started, it was three of us, it was also a consulting company like Infinite Red which lasted for nine years. It was a little bit different. Real quick, we did mainly enterprise, not start ups, larger companies, that kind of stuff. And our model was kind of to be subcontractors. So we had a lot of relationships with other consulting companies. One of the things we did, is we did really hard things well. So all the other consulting companies, like especially at that time it's gonna sound funny, but you'd have companies coming to us saying, "Look, we're doing most of the project, but they want something on the web, and we have no idea how to do that." And we did. And we knew Visual C++ and we knew all sorts of things. And so we specialize. We were higher priced because of that, and we'd come in and do the fun parts, in our opinion, which was really great. This is circa 1999. That one wasn't ... there wasn't too much anxiety from it. It was a small company, so later I'll talk about most of my anxiety at Infinite Red come from my worry of the 25 families I'm responsible for. JAMON: Right. TODD: It's not so much myself, because I do not have affluent parents. Well, most of my relatives are dead now, but I never really worried about money. I mean worst case scenario, I can be a developer. I'm pretty darn good developer, and I can make good money at that. And I moved out of the Bay Area, so for me my lifestyle is much cheaper than it used to be. So I don't worry about that so much, but I do worry about everyone's families who work at Infinite Red. My first company, we didn't have that. It was all just high level people. There was three to six of us, depending on the time. And we kind of just slipped into it. We had our first few big customers before we even started. So that wasn't really stressful at all. The second company, which came after my first company, I went back and worked for companies, for other start ups as an employee, and that's how I met Ken. Ken was my boss. And I was doing that mainly just 'cause after nine years running your company, I was just kind of tired, and I wanted to be an employee for a while. And I did that for about three, three and half years. And Ken, sorry boss, it was super relaxing, easy. You work like seven and a half hours a day or whatever. KEN: This has been noted on your permanent file. TODD: You know, regular jobs often are pretty lax compared to start ups. As an aside, I was in a pizza parlor once, and I saw a sign behind the wall. It was obviously the pizza parlor was owned by a person, it wasn't a chain, and the sign said, the only thing more overrated then running your own business is pregnancy. Which is true, if you do it for low hours and high pay, you really should rethink that, but there are lots of great reasons to do it. Any who, my second company was venture capital backed company which means we didn't use our own money. It was intentionally designed to do the hockey stick which means go from zero to very high very fast, and we had investors. And we had to pitch to venture capitalists and angel investors, and we had all the kind of normal Silicon Valley stuff. And that lasted for about a year and a half, and I cherish that experience, because it taught me a lot about that process from the inside. It was completely a failure which is fine. The fears in that, once again, were not personal, because as I did right after that, I went and got a job with Ken. JAMON: Right. TODD: And I made plenty of personal money. And because we weren't investing our money, the VCs were, there really wasn't a lot of anxiety there. I would say the main anxiety there was performance. Meaning it's kind of depressing when you're failing, and sometimes you have a great success. We did one month, especially. And we were shooting to the moon for a whole month, and it was super exciting. So it was just kind of a roller coaster of anxiety for that kind of business. Yeah, Jamon? JAMON: I think it's really interesting to hear you and Ken talk about the idea of, well I can just go get a job as a developer. Because for the longest time, I didn't feel that I had that option. Whether that was reality or not, I don't know. I was basically, I kind of thought of myself as just building websites. I just built websites for people, and I didn't really think of myself as a software engineer. I just happen to be someone that happened to built websites. TODD: Knowing you Jamon, and the quality of engineer you are, you are completely wrong. You could have totally got a job, but I get why- JAMON: Yeah. TODD: -from your perspective you felt that way. KEN: Yeah, well and it's a matter of ... it highlights how important just knowing the scene is. JAMON: Right. Yeah, totally. KEN: If you know the scene, yeah if you're an engineer, even like an old rusty engineer, like we're going to be before too long. TODD: Too late, Ken. KEN: Right. JAMON: Too soon and too late. KEN: Even if you're an old rusty engineer, you can figure it out. Right? JAMON: Right, yeah. KEN: The demand is so overwhelming and so consistent and so pervasive that- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -if you know sort of the ins and outs- TODD: Even you Jamon could get a job is what you're saying. JAMON: Even I could get a job. KEN: No, if you're half-way competent, and he's more than half-way competent, about 60 percent. JAMON: I appreciate it. KEN: No, it's- JAMON: 60 percent. Yeah. No, and to hear that now. It's something that is obviously more of an option now that I don't need it, but at the time it didn't feel like an option, and so especially when I started getting employees in 2009. And most of them were young. They didn't have much in the way of family, but they would obviously still have ... they needed jobs, and I felt that. I felt that in every part of me that if the business wasn't doing well, that I was failing them. And that actually drove me for a long time. I think if I'd had the option to go work for someone, or felt I had the option to go work for someone, I may have actually quit at some point. But I didn't. I kept the course there. KEN: I will say, that I'm glad that I did not know everything that I should be afraid of going into it. 'Cause there is plenty that you should be afraid of, and if I'd known all that stuff going in, I probably wouldn't have done it, and I'm glad that I did it. And if I had to redo it now, I would do it again. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's an important distinction is that it's not that I would do it again, it's that only hearing the bad stuff at that point, would have been a disaster. TODD: Ignorance and hubris are the two best tools of the entrepreneur. JAMON: I feel like it's both more stressful and more scary than you think, but also you're more resourceful and more able to deal with it then you think. KEN: Yes. TODD: Hundred percent. I would say, talking to other people who are new to it, and I certainly had to learn this, the biggest problem is the buck stops here. Meaning in every other situation where you worked, you could always throw a problem up the ladder. JAMON: Yes. TODD: And when you're a small business person, you don't know accounting? Doesn't matter. Do it. JAMON: Someone's gotta do the accounting. TODD: Right, like there's literally no excuse. There's none, and you don't have that money just to pay for people to do it. KEN: I guarantee the IRS does not grade on a curve. TODD: No, they don't care about your excuses. KEN: Yeah. TODD: So Jamon, Ken, and I come from very different places. So Ken obviously went to Harvard. He's impressive on paper. I actually did not. I didn't finish college. I started making way too much money as a programmer to be honest. But when I first started out in 1996 as a professional programmer, you know I wasn't making tons of money, but it was plenty for me, because where I'm from, it's a lot of money. And at that time, I'd probably be more like Jamon meaning I didn't see myself as really deserving that kind of stuff, but this was in San Francisco in 1996. So I saw the first boom, and then I saw the crash, and then I saw the second boom. And after a while, you start to learn, although I don't have Ken's personal background. I do have Ken's professional background. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yep. TODD: And so, one of the things I've noticed when talking to Jamon, because he's in Vancouver, Washington, and not around that stuff as much, is he feels a little bit like an imposter. He's totally not. And I bet even now in his mind he imagines that those people working at Google somehow have this huge, amazing, genius to them, and Ken's probably in the middle. He probably thinks some of them do. I personally have yet to meet one of these fabled geniuses. So the more you get involved with that, the more you realize they're just humans, and you're just as good as they are. KEN: That is true. JAMON: I think that's been something that I've become more and more aware of over the past several years. And it's funny because I don't usually think of myself as having imposter syndrome. I'm actually quite a confident guy, but in that regard I definitely did not really realize ... it felt like they were a different breed. They were a different type of person. And I always felt like I could probably learn anything, but there was still this degree of separation. But, anyway, coming back to the topic at hand, I think that sort of uncertainty and fear can be a motivating factor. But one of the things, so one of the things I'd like to talk about, is there are healthy ways and unhealthy ways to handle that stress, and I've done them all. Believe me. TODD: Like cocaine? JAMON: Maybe. TODD: Jamon's mother, he's totally joking. He's never done cocaine. JAMON: Yes, thank you Todd. And my mom does listen to this, so thanks Todd. TODD: He really has not, trust me. JAMON: You wouldn't want to see me on cocaine. KEN: Oh god. Yeah, that is the wrong drug for you my friend. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Oof. JAMON: But you don't want to transfer stress to clients. You don't want to transfer stress to employees. You don't want to transfer it to your significant other. To your family. And unfortunately, I've done all of those things, because I'm human and that's what happens. You get a lot of stress, and then you feel like you need to let off steam. One of the things that I actually really appreciated about this partnership is that we're able to let off steam with each other. And in a way, that is healthy. That isn't transferring to someone else who has nothing to do with it or has no power. Where I have two partners who are actually in the same spot, and they can help. It's been really, really helpful. So that is really important. I think how you transfer stress. Yeah, Todd? TODD: I agree. I don't kick the dog. I kick Ken. Which is better. The dog appreciates it at least. JAMON: You don't even have a dog, Todd. TODD: I don't have a dog, and I've never kick a dog by the way. I'd kick humans all day long, but never a dog. JAMON: This is true. TODD: Just to be clear. JAMON: Yes, Todd is the one who canceled a meeting because he had to bring a bird to the hospital that had hit his door, actually one time. TODD: It's true. It is true, and that bird is flapping happily today. KEN: As far as you know. TODD: I hope. Back to my story, because it's all about me. Anxiety at Infinite Red really does come around to team members mostly, and you two Ken and Jamon because I don't want to let you down, and I certainly don't want someone's family not to be able to have a Christmas because of something stupid I did, or because I was acting emotionally when I should have been acting rationally. That kind of stuff. JAMON: This year, me not having Christmas had nothing to do with you Todd, so I can let you know that. TODD: Jamon's house was burglarized and burnt down. Not burnt down, but set afire on Christmas Eve. KEN: Torched. TODD: So, if you're feeling good about humanity up to this point, now you can feel bad about it. So, there you go, but they're back in their house. KEN: You're welcome. TODD: Everything's good. JAMON: Yes. TODD: You're back in your house. Everything's good, and he has a wonderful family, and all is well. JAMON: Yeah, it's really nice to be back. Anyway, I cut you off. TODD: But so that's a lot of my anxieties about it. At my age, I'm 46, and I've done this a long time. I don't stress as often. Like I used to get very stressed out doing sales calls or that kind of stuff. I've done all that stuff enough where it doesn't really bother me too much. Even tough things where you have to be really tough with the client, or vendor, or something like that. It doesn't, I mean it bothers me temporarily of course you get the adrenaline going and no one likes that. But it's really the things that give me anxiety and up at night is if I make a mistake that will cause us not to be able to pay payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Now, one note. We've always paid payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: But that is something- KEN: There's been some close calls. TODD: That is something that- KEN: Yeah. TODD: That makes me work harder, and it makes me worry. Me, personally, I could figure it out, it's not as big of a deal to me. KEN: Well, I think also a big stressor that I didn't ... it makes sense in retrospect, but it wasn't one that like occurred to me, is how hard it is to maintain focus over time- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative) TODD: Yeah. KEN: -when you don't have a boss doing that for you. I was a small scale boss at my previous jobs, but this experience definitely makes me want to write a nice little note of apology to every boss I've ever had. Like, however bad they were, I have more sort of sympathy for what they were dealing with then I did before. TODD: That's so true. KEN: Yeah, and the surprising thing is how hard it is to cope with success. When you're doing well, that's when the monster of de-focusing really starts to rear its head. It's like driving a car fast. If you've never driven a car at 150 miles an hour, it's a different thing from driving it at 60 miles an hour. It takes a little getting used to that state, oh things are going well, but that doesn't mean that I get to take my eyes off the road. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: So. CHRIS MARTIN: Can you guys go in a little deeper on how you manage some of these things? 'Cause you've talked about having the feelings of stress and fear, but maybe some of the ways that you manage it, a part from kicking Ken. KEN: That's Todd's favorite. TODD: Well, Ken mentioned that success can be hard to deal with, and I have a tried and true technique I've used for many years with dealing with the problems of success. And here it is. And I'll share it with you. I normally would charge for this advice, but I'm gonna share. Don't be successful. There you go. KEN: Yeah. TODD: You're welcome. KEN: That one we're still figuring out. Having co-founders you actually trust is probably the number one. TODD: Yeah, it's hard to do, and at one time in my career I said I would never ever had a partner or a co-founder again. And here we are, so. JAMON: I think getting together in person is important. Of course, we're a remote company. So I'm up here near Portland, and Ken's in the Bay Area, and Todd's in Vegas, but we did get together a couple weeks ago to talk. And there was a stressful situation going on, and that was something that we went through together in person. TODD: Well, we also hang out in zoom a lot. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Every week. And that's similar. But, yeah having good co-founders who are your friends, and you become almost married at a point, because when you're in business together it is like a marriage, and you know everyone's finances. You know if someone's spouse is having problems with the way the company's working. You have to deal with that- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- TODD: -at least as an auxiliary person in that particular thing. So it's a very intimate thing for sure. I definitely choose that very, very, very wisely. I've had bad experiences, and of course I've had great experiences here. JAMON: I think that one of the things that we actually do fairly well is we will say when we're stressed. You know, we'll say, "Hey, I am currently feeling a high degree of stress." And then the other co-founders can say, "Okay, what is causing this." And we can talk about it more objectively. And just saying it out loud sometimes is a way to kind of like let go of it a little bit. TODD: We also know how to fight which takes a while. That's a hard one to learn. JAMON: It is. TODD: But we've learned how to fight. Yell at each other, and know that afterwards we're going to be okay, and that's important. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: The trust that you would gain with a girlfriend or boyfriend or your spouse- KEN: Sibling TODD: -where you can have an emotional throw up as it were and know that you're still gonna be loved as it were. KEN: Well, and also it's sort of on the focusing issue, actually. It's relevant there too which is that I'm pretty ADD I would say. I think that's probably pretty common I would say for entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is one place where you can actually challenge your ADD tendencies. However, I also know it's like, "Hey guys, I'm having some trouble focusing and motivating on x, y, and z- JAMON: Right. KEN: -can I have help with knowing that there's not going to be any judgment coming along- JAMON: Right. KEN: -with that help?" JAMON: Right. Yeah. TODD: To be clear, it's all not roses. Sometimes one of us gets irritated with the other person because of these issues and- JAMON: Right. TODD: -but ultimately once we get talking to it, we're not super human. Sometimes I get irritated with Jamon or Ken and vice versa. But the whole point is, when you get to the end of that, you're supportive. JAMON: Another really important thing is to have some really core principles. Some kind of tent poles so-to-speak that you can come back to. One of the things that we really strongly believe is that the core of us three is one of the most important things about this company. And so we can come back to that. I mean, if the most important thing that we had was some technology or some financial goal or something like that, then it would put a lot of stresses on our relationship, but since we've made that relationship such a high priority, it's extremely important. And another thing, along those lines, is we recognize that we are human, and that sometimes it's actually a personal situation that's contributing to work stress. TODD: Yes. JAMON: You might have situation where maybe a family member has health issues or you're having trouble with a relationship, or anything along those lines, and we ... I was actually talking to an employee recently who talked about a personal situation that they were having and how it was contributing to their stress, and I had noticed the stress that they were going through at work, but I didn't know about the personal situation, and it's okay. I told them, "It's fine. It's a normal, human thing to have situations that arise. I understand. It's something that you can tell us, if there's something going on, you don't have to be specific. You don't have to tell us private information, but just tell us that something's going on, and we will do our best to be as understanding as possible." TODD: And it's a matter of trust. That particular person trusted Jamon. That's fantastic. It's trust that we build up between founders. It's trust with the team, and to some extent, trust with your customers, and your vendors. Especially with customers and vendors, if you can do that, that's fantastic, but the others you can do with time. Just to give you an example, trust. I try to be trusting even when I shouldn't be. I picked up this guy the other day, in my car, he gets in the backseat. I just picked him up. I didn't know him, and first he gets in, understandably he's like, "Thanks for picking me up, but how do you know I'm not a serial killer?" TODD: And I just looked at him. I'm like, "What's the chance two serial killers would be in the same car?" Pretty low. So, yeah trust is very important. Any other tools or techniques that you all have for dealing with these anxieties or stresses or whatever? KEN: Drinking. Drinking is important. Water. Water. JAMON: Lots of water. KEN: What do you think I meant? Oh, come one. JAMON: Yes, stay hydrated. KEN: Yes, stay hydrated. Yeah. JAMON: Actually, along those lines, I started working out a couple years ago, and that has been a really good help for my stress level. When I get through with a workout, I feel better about myself. I feel good. There's probably some endorphins or something that come with that. And it's really hard when you are really critically needed at work to take two hours to go workout, but it's also extremely important for your long-term health. And so you have to prioritize it very high. And you can basically justify it to yourself which I had to do with if I go and do this, I will be better equipped to handle the issues that come up, and it's so true. Working out has been a very good thing for my stress level. TODD: A lot of people might be worried about their finances or their spouse's opinion and that kind of stuff. Which can be super challenging, so you have to deal with that. Another thing that I've noticed is, and this is pretty common, especially in our world, and I have to remember that 110 years ago, Ken'll tell me a real number, but somewhere around there. Most people worked at home, and most people had their own business. They didn't call it their own business, they were just a blacksmith, and people paid you to hoove their horses or not hoove. JAMON: Shoe. TODD: Shoe. KEN: Shoe. TODD: Shoe their horses. Thank you. It's been a while since I've lived on the farm about 30 years, but anyway- JAMON: It's that a farrier or something? TODD: Huh? JAMON: Ken, isn't it- KEN: A farrier. JAMON: Yeah, it's a farrier. KEN: That sounds right. TODD: Whatever that means. Anyways, so you would just do that. You'd just offer your services and that was a home business quote unquote. But, you know, since we all grew up in the late 20th century or the 21st century, for our younger listeners, you know that has been not the normal but the minority. And so a lot of people I've talked with, they said, "Well, can I do that? Do I have the permission to do that or whatever?" And it is kind of hard to get to their skull like who are you asking permission from? There isn't ... there is the government who has rules, but despite what you might think about the government, the rules are actually fairly basic and the IRS of course wants you to pay the money, but that's actually not the difficult to be honest either. So it's just really an internal stumbling block. You don't have to ask anyone. You can go right now. Get a business license, and sell bottles of water at a popular park. Right now, and you technically have a small business. JAMON: Regarding the personal finances side of this, one of the things that my wife and I did early on that really helped was we did a monthly budget. So we used the tool called YNAB, youneedabudget.com, and we sat down every month together, and we entered all of our receipts and we had categories and we split everything up. We were kind of finance nerds during this time, and that was helpful, because it gave us a sense of control over our finances. We knew where we were. We knew whether we had enough money to pay the mortgage. We knew how much, we could specifically tell you what day we would run out of money if we couldn't bring anything in, and that was helpful. Now, sometimes the math brings its own anxiety, but at least you know where it is, and it's not this unknown out there all the time. Actually, more lately, we've gotten away from that. After almost 15 years of marriage, and I kind of want to go back to it, because there are some stresses that come from not knowing. TODD: Yeah, sometimes everything is just fine, but just don't know it, and you assume the worst because- JAMON: Exactly. TODD: -people do. So I have a question for Ken. I grew up very poor, just some background, but later in my early 20s and stuff, my family actually started doing pretty well. My mom and my step-father ran a couple businesses. My brother started businesses and has done very well for himself. So, although, in my younger life, we were almost less than working class, to be honest. Later in life, we had a lot of experience with business. So me being in business was very natural to me, and my family understood, and they actually didn't understand when I was working for someone else. It was weird to them, but Ken, I know from discussions with you, the opposite was true. From your family, there wasn't anyone who were business people and that kind of stuff, and it was kind of outside your culture. I would love to hear if maybe that caused any particular issues for you? KEN: Yeah, for sure. I grew up in what I would call kind of professional slash academic class household. Right? College degrees going very far back in my family. Doctors, lawyers, scientists, illustrators, artists, also but professionals of various kinds. Going back quite a while. There was a flavor of business being looked down upon a little bit, and that was definitely, even when I got to Harvard. There was that divide was still there even though Harvard certainly has both types. The professional type to kind of like, well I'm good at something. I'm really good at this, and I'm so good at it people want to pay me good money for it. And that's a perfectly good life. And I'm actually here to tell you right now, if you have those skills. If you are happy doing them, you're in a good position. Should you start a business? The answer is probably no. Right? I did it because I couldn't stand not doing it. Right? It was just this terrifying but enticing thing for as long as I could remember to be ... I just wanted to be on my own. I want to do this. Ah. Right. It was this dragon inside that I couldn't contain. In some degrees, it made me a bad employee. Sometimes. Right, because anybody who's not doing what they're sort of supposed to be doing is not happy. Right? Jamon, do you want to interject? JAMON: Oh, I just want to say in Ken's family if you say someone is a painter, that means that they are an artist, and they paint on canvas. In my family, if someone's a painter, that means they spray paint on houses. KEN: Yes. TODD: In my family, if someone's a painter you're like, "Oh, he's got a job. That's wonderful." KEN: Yeah, so the three of us we talk about this class stuff all the time because when you start talking with people who grew up in different backgrounds, you start to realize what your blind spots are. Like, I remember Todd saying, growing up people who went to the movies were rich or something like that. Todd, do you remember what some of your things were? TODD: Oh, there's a long list of what rich people do that most people would find amusing. KEN: For me, not only ... I grew up in a fairly prosperous town. I would say. Right, but I wouldn't call it, there weren't a lot of rich, rich, rich people, but it was prosperous. And then going to Harvard, of course you get exposed to all sorts, and you start to realize how high the ladder goes. Right? And that gave me I think a sort of warped perspective on life. And Todd's perspective was warped in a different way. And by sort of, not like the three of us, by any stretch of the imagination, now encompass an enormous swath of life experience. JAMON: No. KEN: We're all white dudes for one thing. Right? JAMON: Yes. KEN: But nevertheless, it gives us sort of perspective on things that helps. It blunts some of the fear. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: To have that breadth of perspective. TODD: I'd like to ask Ken, because your family culture wasn't business-oriented, and as you just mentioned, almost a little bit looked down upon business people, I guess for the crassness of it all. KEN: It wasn't overt, but it was definitely outside of our purview. TODD: And definitely your friends from Harvard who weren't in business school or that kind of thing ... do you, like for me. It's easy for me. The bar was so low. I surpassed almost everyone I grew up with long ago. JAMON: Yeah. Similar. TODD: I don't have to prove anything to anyone. KEN: Well, so at this point I don't care very much. At this point, I'm doing my thing and that's that. However, I will point out there is something very interesting about Silicon Valley. Which is that Silicon Valley is a business culture that was grown by people kind of like me- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -from the professional and scientific culture. JAMON: That's true. KEN: And as a result, that is where, I think, I'm not a sociologist. I haven't studied this or anything, but my theory is that that's where that sort of disdain for lifestyle businesses comes from. I think it's seen as sort of a grind. Where you're getting paid for the brilliance of your idea, you're just getting paid for hard work. JAMON: Yeah, I think that this idea of a lifestyle business, which I don't have any negative connotation whatsoever. In my world, a lifestyle business sounds like a luxury. KEN: Luxury. TODD: Luxury. JAMON: Okay, we're gonna have to link to that YouTube video. TODD: Yes. JAMON: But some Monty Python there. But I think that's actually something that was really, really helpful was when we merged was the idea that we can design this business to be lower stress. That doesn't mean we take our eye off the ball, which we kinda did for a little while there. That doesn't mean that we don't work hard, cause we do when the situation demands it, but we can design the type of business where the general day to day things are not drudgery. They are things that we enjoy doing. That we're good at, and that we can contribute to the success of the business. And I think that that's something that's actually overlooked a little bit when you're owning a business that you do have the ability to change things. You have the ability to enact change. It may be painful. It may be hard. It might be expensive, but you can look at something and say, "You know what, this isn't fitting for me, and I'm gonna change it." Whether it's cutting off a client that's being too stressful. Whether it's hiring someone to do something that you're not good at. All of those things are things that you can do. My sister started a small WordPress website company. So she's building WordPress websites. And she asked me for a lot of advice along the way, because she knew I'd kind of- TODD: Is this Meredith, Jamon? JAMON: Yeah. That's right that's Meredith. And one of the things I told her was that you want to stay with your kids. You want to be at home. You want to build this business that does not interrupt those things, so make those very core priorities. When you make decisions, they should be based on whether they enhance that or take away from that. It kind of gave her permission to look at things through that lens. That you don't have to necessarily measure it on dollars and cents or even things like customer satisfaction. That may be a goal and you don't want to let people down, but ultimately you don't want to let your family down. And that's something that I think is really important. So for her, you know her husband's an engineer, a mechanical engineer. He makes good money. It's not something where they have to have the business, but she wanted something that challenged her while she was also able to be at home, and I think it's done that. TODD: And the people she worked with on her team are similar, correct? JAMON: Yeah, that's right. So she not only provided a business that works for her, but also for the people on her team. So she actually has people that do code. That do design. That do content. And in many cases they are people who stay at home with their kids. And that's kind of a cool concept that there could be a business that enables that. TODD: I think that super important to mention the reason why, because people think that their business has to be like they see on TV or they read about it in a magazine or a book or whatever, and it doesn't. What principles you base your business on is up to you, and then your job is to figure out a way to make that happen. I think it's awesome that she wanted to help herself and her team who want a particular lifestyle and still be able to have this business, and she's doing it, and that's wonderful. KEN: Yeah, and I think it's worth saying on the list of reasons to start a business, getting rich should probably not be your number one. If getting rich is your number one reason, well I mean that's fine, and depending on your personality, it at least has that as a possibility. JAMON: Sure. KEN: Whereas most jobs done. At least not on any sort of short time frame. The number one reason to do it is 'cause you want more control over your life. And that's why we did it. So the first year that I took off, when we were still trying to build an ap and we hadn't done the consulting yet, my daughter was two, and to save money we took less daycare. I had to still have some, 'cause we both work, but did less daycare. So I spent time with her. I cooked for the family. I found all these ways to save money, and I was sort of part-time house husband while this was going on, and even if the rest of this fails, right? Even if we crash and burn, the chance to have that year and do that will be with me the rest of my life. So, part of our mission here at Infinite Red, and something we've always agreed on is that we don't just want a successful business. We have to do that in order to make the rest of this work. And it's a perfectly good goal in itself, but that we also want to be an example of how work can work. Right? Not that there aren't others, but this is us. This is what we think work should be like. Not that it's never intense. Not that it's never hard. Not that it's some sort of walk in the park. It is not. But that it can co-exist with the rest of your life in a much more harmonious way than has been the model for 20th century corporate whatever. TODD: Yeah, there are other ways to run a business, all of them are wrong. CHRIS: Ken do you think that when we ... that struggle occurs when we move away from those principles and values and what's important to us as business owners or whatever that label would be? So like, when you move away from maybe wanting to spend time with your family or building a company where it fuels the lives of your employees. You know, do you think that fear and intention is magnified if you move away from those things? KEN: What do you mean by move away from those things? CHRIS: So that they're no longer a priority. Maybe you're making decisions that go against those values. KEN: That is definitely a source of stress. And the fact of the matter is, we are still a business. We still have to operate in the same environment that every other business does. And we have to compete against businesses that don't operate the way we do. JAMON: Right. KEN: And to whatever extent our values create, like I said, put us at a disadvantage, and I think sometimes in the short term that is true. We sometimes have to make hard choices in order to survive and work another day. And I think there's probably kind of a core, not exactly explicitly articulated, there's some core that we won't push past, but when we have to hopefully temporarily do things that are different from our stated values. Yeah, that's rough. Absolutely rough. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: The trick is to kind of figure out ... this is why it's so important to figure out what your real values are. Right? And we've had to sort of narrow it down in certain places, because if you have this long list of things that you claim to care about, but that's not actually true. Right? Then, when it really comes down to it, there are some things that are more core than others. If you die on the hill of one of the non-core ones, and it causes you to fail, that is an unacceptable outcome. And so, figuring out which hills you're really willing to die on and which hills you're not willing to die on is super important and there's not really a shortcut. It's something that you figure out as you go along. TODD: If you're getting chased by zombies through a forest and the zombies are starting to catch up to you, sometimes you have to give grandma a cookie and push her down the hill. That's all I'm saying. It sucks. It's against your principles, but grandma's lived a good life, and she loves those cookies. Fact. JAMON: I don't even know how to follow up on that one, but one of the things I was asked early on when I started my company was, what are your core principles and I kind of fumbled through an answer, and I don't even remember what it was at the time. But I actually think it was probably not reasonable for me to even know what those were at the time other than personal values, but over time, taking lumps here and there and bruises, and the stress and anxiety of various situations, it's made it very clear what is really important. At the time I was young, I was idealistic. I didn't really understand what could go wrong. What mattered. What didn't. But I think that all of those stresses and fears eventually taught me a lot of things and so in a lot of ways, even though they kind of sucked at the time, they were necessary to get me to who I am today. You know, I don't want to go back and relive them, but I wouldn't trade them away. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well that was super interesting to me. I knew some of that. I learned some new stuff which is always fun, and I hope it has some value to the listeners for sure. You know, our experience. At least it's hopefully an interesting story if nothing more. JAMON: Absolutely.

Many CEOs feel as though they've plateaued when it comes to growing a company. They quickly find they don't have enough time in a day to get done what needs to be done. Kelley School of Business professor of management, and former corporate executive, Ken Wendeln shares simple ideas that will free up your time and expand the growth without running yourself ragged.  ---- Do you have a question? Looking to get help on a business decision? Know a great guest for our show? Email roipod@iupui.edu so we can help your organization make better business decisions. ---- Ready to take your next step? Check out if a Kelley MBA is right for you: https://bit.ly/3m2G6D5 ---- Show Notes: Shane: Before we start the episode, I want to share a quote from the book Time, Talent and Energy from Michale Mankins and Eric Garten, which plays right into what we'll be talking about today. And here's the quote: “Energy is an intangible but powerful force that enables companies to accomplish great things. Leaders who learn to boost and harness their organizations' energy can multiply the impact of their employees' time and talent. The key is to tap the power of engagement, inspiration, and a strong company culture.” (The ROI Podcast Music) Shane: Welcome back to the ROI Podcast presented by the Kelley School of Business on the IUPUI Campus here in downtown Indianapolis. Hopefully, all of you are having an amazing day! For those of you who don't know already – I'm Shane Simmons and my co-host is Phil Powell, the associate dean of academic programs here at the Kelley School. Phil, we're talking about executive leadership today – and there's tons of literature out there regarding the importance of great leadership – but today we're really going to get specific on how leaders can measure their success and grow the organization. Phil Responds Shane: Today we're talking with Ken Wendeln who's a professor of management here at the Kelley School – but before coming to Kelley – he was an executive for multiple companies where he was very successful. And Phil, you had a great conversation with him – and we're about to play the soundbite that I thought was very interesting – and that's the obstacle that's holding many organizations back from growth – which can be the CEO themselves because they're too involved. Take a listen: Ken: Let me give you a good example: as a sector executive, I took over a business in California. It was a small business, grew quite nicely, and I was sitting down with the general manager after we had acquired them, and he was talking about his frustration over the fact that he had not been able to grow his business beyond $30M in today's dollars. As I watched how he operated and what he did, what we found was he was trying to do everything. Instead of him being the one who led the business, he was the one trying to run and manage it! The natural point of his inability to grow the business was himself. Eventually, he moved off to do some other thing, we put some professional managers in place who knew how to scale the leadership, how to put people in place to be able to grow the business and were quite successful.  Phil: So, how do smart managers or executive leaders get into this new position of leadership, who've excelled most of their career – all of a sudden, can't see what's so simple? Seeing yourself as the growth inhibitor seems like it should be obvious – but according to Ken it's not that easy and sometimes that's the result of the lack of positive feedback. Ken: As you as move up an organization, one of the things we find in working with our MBAs, is it's hard to get honest feedback – even though we have performance reviews, annual reviews, it turns out that it's hard to get honest, helpful, useful feedback on how effective are you. Without that, you do not know what to change. The habits you had, the things that may have gotten you to where you got before – which may have been a lot of hard work, a lot of doing things yourself – all of a sudden limits you because you've run out of time. As you move up the ladder, you need to then say, “What does the organization need from me? What do I need to do to help others grow through my leadership so that they are the ones who are providing the work, the smarts, doing the things that maybe I did in the past, but I don't have time to do today?” Shane: And Phil, that's an interesting concept to think about: The routines and habits that we may have had that made us so successful – can now almost become our kryptonite as a leader. Phil: Exactly and that's what can get in the way of progress for an organization. As you grow into new roles within an organization, you have to learn to delegate tasks and give up control – but as Ken explained during our chat – there may be others who would be happy to take on those tasks that need to be delegated… And then your time, as the leader of the organization, can be better spent in a different area. But some people may be wondering what kind of tasks they should delegate? Ken explains that here: Ken: Well, I think you want to delegate those kinds of tasks where you can accept somebody else's perfection. As an example, if I'm doing presentations and they don't have to be absolutely perfect, I can give that to somebody who will do a good job, will be more than adequate, and I'll be very happy with. Whereas I might spend a lot more time on things in that presentation that would've taken a lot more time and would've added little value. Or, on tasks I'm not particularly good at or interested in, others may be very interested in doing that. I know when I delegate, I'm very careful about picking what can I give to somebody else, what can I accept of them, and what will they be happy with? I keep just those tasks to myself where either they're something only I really can do, or I know I can't accept somebody else's perfection because it's really important to me.  Phil: And when you're delegating effectively, you're setting your organization up for growth. Ken: Good delegation not only helps free up your time, it also helps you develop with other people because as I give other people the chance to do things, guess what? They do them well, grow, learn, and become part of the team, and they're happy to be there! They see themselves as valuable. Delegating to others and doing it well is a trait that helps not only you time-wise, but also helps others grow in the organization.  Phil: So tip #1 – find ways to delegate tasks. And the second tip that Ken says is critical to growing the organization and thriving as a leader is creating a conducive workplace culture. Ken: Culture is an interesting one because people want to be part of organizations that they can identify with - their personal purpose, and hopefully the organization's purpose, is one and the same, so we like to identify with those that we want to be with. Creating a culture that fits what your strategy [is], what customers want, but also has to fit with what your own employees want – an honest culture is not easy to create! Finding ways that you can have a place where people really want to feel valued is a challenge, particularly in today's workforce. You look at some of the younger kids coming out through school - the millennials, so to speak - they have a set of expectations. How do we meet that? How do we align our organization to fit with what the customer wants, what our culture is, and what our employees need? That alignment, if you can do that, is tremendous because now you've aligned your whole purpose to all those that are stakeholders.  Shane: So Phil, here's my question when it comes to company culture… How does accountability fall into this? What's the biggest mistake executives make in accountability? Phil: That's a great question and many people may be surprised by the answer to this. Ken: The biggest mistake in accountability is not letting people make mistakes! If you don't support those that you ask to do things, even when maybe they made a mistake you have to support them. They have to know that if they mess something up, that's okay, they'll learn from the mistake, and go forward and support you. You really want to create a culture of making mistakes, but making them quickly, and being honest about them: that's accountability. Now people take pride in what they're doing, and if something does go wrong, they'll step back, learn from it, and take another stab. If you don't do that, then people will be fearful of taking things on. I think allowing people to make mistakes, trying things but failing quickly, so to speak, and then supporting them when they do that helps to build the organization and the people.  Phil: To sum up what we've talked about today – the most successful leaders know how to delegate and set the organization and the people in it up for success. And we've also discussed the importance of workplace culture… But if you want to measure leadership – which can seem nearly impossible to do at times – here's a really interesting way Ken says you can do that… Ken: Leadership is hard to measure, because what do you measure? What I found interesting is one trick from a professor I know at another school talks about the measurement is easy - just measure the energy in the room when you started and finished! What happens if I'm having a meeting or teaching a class, if the energy level is here, and I go through that 1-3 hour of class/meeting time, is the energy level higher when I left because of what I did, then I've accomplished something. If it's lower, then I've sucked the energy out of people. Again, just like time, we've only got so much energy. My measure today of how well I'm doing is, was the energy left, were people more people excited, more motivated, and more interested? I started to use that as a simple measure, and it's an easy one to look at because you can see the expressions of people's faces, the pace that they walk in and out of the room. I think it's a great measure, that along with being able to grow others - your talent - make others interested and excited because they're with you, and that becomes your energy level too!    (The ROI Podcast Music) Shane: And that's going to wrap-up this episode of The ROI Podcast Presented by The Kelley School of Business – we'd like to send a thank you to Kelley professor Ken Wendeln for all the value he provided in this episode. I think there are lessons we can all learn – whether we are currently in a management position, or if that's something we'd like to achieve in the future. Shane: Don't forget you can subscribe to the ROI podcast on iTunes and leave us a review!