Podcast appearances and mentions of zach hey

Zach Hey there Hunters and welcome back to the Zach and Beats Podcast. I'm Zach. Beats in Orlando enjoying Disney World with his family. So with Beats out, I've invited the coin hunt world wiki creator Marlov to join the show. Marlov, I know you are busy with your leaderboard push, but aside from making me run around the city like a chicken with my head cut off how are you? --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Show Notes 00:00 Introduction 00:22 Medicare part A 06:39 Medicare part B 15:35 Medicare part D Links Referenced: medicare.gov: https://medicare.gov Zach's email: mailto:zach@getsbi.com Nick's email: mailto:nick@getsbi.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc Webpage: https://seniors-livinghealthy.com/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to our fireside chat with Seniors Living Healthy, the podcast that helps prepare and educate you as you enter and live out your golden years. With over 10 years of experience, Nick and Zach are experts in the senior market and are here to help you live a healthy, full life. And now fireside with your hosts, Nick Keene, and Zach Haire.Nick: Hello, and welcome to season two of Seniors Living Healthy, episode one. I'm Nick. And I have Zach, our co-host with us.Zach: Hey, folks.Nick: And for episode one of season two, we want to cover parts A, B, and D of Medicare, and the changes for 2022. So Zach, let's jump right in.Zach: Sounds good. So, kind of start off there from the top, Part A, just like in the alphabet, starting out with the first letter there, you know, that is our hospitalization, sir. You know, Nick, what are some common things that Part A covers?Nick: Yeah, so Part A kicks in when individuals are admitted to the hospital. It's worth mentioning, Zach, that they're admitted because we are seeing more commonly that people are being put in the hospital under observation. And that is actually covered under Part B. So, very simply, anytime someone is admitted to the hospital, not under observation, Part A kicks in.Zach: Got you. So, let's say, you know, I'm getting ready to turn 65 in a few months. I'm still working things like that, how do I get Part A? What do I have to do to qualify for it?Nick: Great question, Zach. We do get this question quite frequently. So, the most common way to qualify for Medicare is those individuals that have worked 40 quarters or ten years and paid into Medicare via payroll taxes, right? Those individuals get Medicare the month of their 65th birthday.Zach: Got you. So, no matter what, they're going to get Part A. I know you said you paid into it while you're working. Is there any additional costs added to that?Nick: Right. So, great question there, Zach, and worth mentioning here as well. For those individuals that qualify traditionally for Medicare, they worked 40 quarters, ten years, and paid in, Part A is premium-free, think of it as prepaid. But also you have those individuals that may qualify based on their spouse's, right? Their spouses may have worked 40 quarters or ten years, they also qualify for Medicare Part A the month of their 65th birthday.Then the third situation, there is a cost. And those individuals that don't have a spouse that qualifies for Medicare they can draw off of and don't have the credits themselves, depending on how much they have worked and paid in, Part A can be purchased.Zach: Yeah. So, you do still have the ability to get Part A, if you don't ‘qualify', you can always pay for that and pick it up.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: So, we know that in most cases, there's no additional premium; you've paid into it as you were working. Are there any other, you know, common costs associated with using Part A, whether it be a deductible, whether it be you know, skilled facility care, things such as that?Nick: Absolutely. So, yeah. So, basically with Part A, the way it works is it's designed with what we call a Medicare period of care, right? So, when those individuals that have Part A are admitted to the hospital, they are immediately responsible for a $1,556 deductible in the year 2022 that covers their first 60 days in their period of care, right? So, for those individuals, they go in, they pay that $1556 deductible, they're covered for the first 60 days, right?But it's worth mentioning that if they go beyond day 60 they do have additional cost, right? And that period of care doesn't end until they go a continuous 60 days without accessing care under Part A. So, assuming their period of care extends, day 61 through 90, those individuals are going to be responsible for $389 a day that they're in the hospital, and day 91 and beyond using those 60 lifetime reserve days, they're going to be responsible for $778 a day. You know, and the other thing to touch on here, Zach, that you mentioned is skilled facility care, right? So, we've seen a major transition in our market over the last five to ten years.You can recall when we were little, people had extended stays in the hospital, you know, people were in their one, two, four, six months. That doesn't happen really anymore, right? What we're seeing, the trend is individuals are being admitted to the hospital, they're being stabilized, and they're being shipped off to skilled facility care centers, right? And you know, whether that's for a hip replacement or a knee replacement, they fell and they broke something, speech, occupational therapy, whatever it may be, these individuals are staying at the skilled facility care centers for extended periods of time, not in the hospital. So, to qualify for Medicare to cover skilled facility care, they have to be in the hospital for at least three days and be admitted to the skilled facility care center within 30 days of being discharged. If those criteria are met, Medicare will cover day 1 through 20, one hundred percent, and then day 21 through 100, the individual is responsible for $194.50 per day.Zach: Got you there. So, you know, once someone is on Part A [everything 00:05:16], is there any limits where they can go, networks, anything like that?Nick: Yeah, one of the beauties of Medicare, Zach, and you know, we tell clients this all the time is Medicare's a nationwide program, right? California, North Carolina, Michigan, to Florida, and everywhere in between. They can access care, right? And that's one of the great things about Medicare is almost all facilities, almost all doctor's office accept Medicare. So, they have no restrictions, they can go just about anywhere they want.Zach: Got you. So, kind of wrapping up Part A there is, anyone can get that as long as you've worked 40 quarters or your spouse has worked 40 quarters. You're able to get that the month you turn 65, the first day of the month.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: And no matter whether you're continuing working or what you've got Part A?Nick: Yep.Zach: And with Part A alone, there was a $1,556 deductible on that they'd be responsible for but then, you know, it does help you in the skilled facility care things such as that, along with your 60-day continuous window of care. And again, no network so you can go wherever you want to go if you've got that Part A; pretty much every hospital, I'd say, in America takes Medicare.Nick: Absolutely, Zach. And just to wrap up on Part A, you know, one of the things that people need to remember is Part A is just hospital admittance insurance. Most of your typical services that are everyday needs are happening on outpatient care, or Part B, which we will be covering shortly.Zach: All right, so now we're going to roll into Part B, again, following our alphabet here, B comes right after A. So B, if you look at your red, white, and blue Medicare card, it is going to say medical, but we refer to it as outpatient.Nick: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we try to eliminate confusion there because the Medicare card says ‘hospital' for Part A and ‘medical' for Part B, but we kind of feel both of those are medical, right? So, we like to explain Part B as anything that is outpatient care, or care that is not admitted into the hospital.Zach: Exactly, yeah. So, kind of got that cleared up. What exactly does it cover when it comes to different things?Nick: Yeah. So, Part B is by far the most common Medicare part, right? It's the most common used, and it literally covers any Medicare-approved charge outside of being admitted to the hospital, right? So, that could be hospital admittance under observation, that could be lab work, physical therapy, CAT scans, MRIs, doctor visits, primary care, or specialists, durable medical equipment, diabetic testing supplies, all those things encompass Part B.Zach: So, we know in Part A you get that automatically when you turn 65. Part B work the same way, or is there a few more hoops to jump through for that?Nick: Yes. So, for Part B, you know, that individual that qualifies for Medicare, either off their work experience or off of a spouse's work experience, they still are eligible to get Part B the month of their 65th birthday, right? However, with Part B, there is a premium, so Medicare does allow it to be elective.Zach: So, with it being elective, how does that situation play out? Do I have to take Part B when I turned 65? If I have creditable coverage, am I fine? You know, if I don't take am I going to get penalized? How does that work?Nick: Yeah, so we're seeing this question come across our desk more and more, Zach. It seems like in this day and age, more and more people are working post-65. We didn't run into this a lot five years ago. But basically, the way it's working is for those individuals that are Medicare-eligible, turning 65, they qualify for Medicare, they can still take Part B the month of their 65th birthday, but if they're still working and have credible coverage, right, which is defined as coverage, at least equivalent to Medicare, they do not have to take Part B. They can postpone it without penalty, assuming they have credible coverage.Zach: Got you. So, you said, you know, 2022, that average premium is $170.10.Nick: Yep.Zach: Which leads you to say if that's the average, there can be some outliers. Is there a way to make that cost lower?Nick: Yeah. So, you know, for a lot of individuals out there, they qualify for what's called Medicare Savings Programs, right? And we know those different programs, whether that's QMB, SLMB, Extra Help those types of things, those programs are designed to reduce or eliminate the premiums, deductibles, and copays associated with Part B, right? So, there are individuals that pay less, there are individuals that pay nothing if they qualify for those Medicare Savings Programs. And it's worth mentioning, to qualify for those programs, you need to reach out to Medicare, the Social Security office that goes through them.Zach: I'd be willing to bet it works the other way, too. I bet they can get a multiplier on you also.Nick: Yep, yep. So, what we see—you know, and once again, we're seeing it more and more as people are coming out of the workforce later in life—those individuals have what's called an IRMA, right, Income-Related Medicare Adjustment. So, if you have income levels above certain thresholds, Medicare is actually going to charge a multiplier, right, you're going to pay more than that $170.10 in 2022. medicare.gov is a great resource, they have the chart right there on the website, showing what those brackets are to get higher Part B costs.So, we certainly encourage people that think they may fall into that bracket, get on medicare.gov, reach out to us, you know, we can ask a couple questions and tell them what they would be looking at.Zach: Got you. So, kind of how we're on the cost of Part B—Nick: Sure.Zach: You know, if someone doesn't have credible coverage and they don't take Part B, then down the road they take Part B, what kind of penalty are they looking at?Nick: Yeah, so the government is penalizing those individuals that don't have Medicare and don't have credible coverage, right? And the penalty that they impose is 10% of the cost of Part B, per full year not covered either via Part B or creditable coverage, right? And it's worth mentioning, if they try to apply for Part B down the road, they're still going to pay that standard premium, they're going to pay that penalty on top of it, and unless they qualify for one of those Medicare Savings Programs like we were talking about, that's never going away.Zach: Yep so looking there, at you know—there are different times to enroll, in that, you know, when people do turn 65, a lot of times they take A and B at the same time.Nick: Yep.Zach: You can delay Part B, as we've talked about. What are those—that situation look like? If someone delays Part B, does that vary from when they turn 65?Nick: Absolutely. So, for individuals that are taking Original Medicare when they're turning 65, those individuals, you know, they get it the month of their 65th birthday. But for those individuals that are delaying Medicare, right, there's two different groups that it's worth mentioning here. For those people that have credible coverage that are still working, you know, they can take Part B anytime concurrent with their loss of coverage, or retirement, right, they have what's called a special election period. But the thing to mention is for those individuals that delay Part B that don't have credible coverage, they can only apply for Part B at certain times throughout the year, right?And that's what's called the general election period. Zach, right? And basically what that is a period from January 1st through March 31st each year that they can apply for Medicare Part B to go into effect 7/1 of that year.Zach: Right. So, you know, kind of look at you have your annual enrollment period, which is every year, October 15th, December 7th, which doesn't really play into this, but then you have your initial enrollment, which people might hear a lot about when they first turned 65, or take their Part B of Medicare. So, looking at, you know, we've kind of we've gone over what the premium can be as well as what possibly the penalty could be. As a whole, what does Part B have? What is it going to cover? What's going to be your out-of-pocket with that?Nick: Yeah, so you know, back to what we kind of mentioned earlier, just to kind of recap this is, Part B is going to cover anything that's not admitted into the hospital, right? So, you know, once again, that's hospitalization under observation; CAT scans; MRIs; lab work; physical therapy; doctor's visits, whether primary care or specialists; diabetic testing supplies; durable medical equipment. And the way Part B is designed, it's an 80/20 coinsurance, right? So, Medicare's covering 80%, the client is responsible for the remaining 20%, plus the Part B deductible, which is, in the year 2022, $233, right? So, it's worth mentioning here—and we tell this to people all the time, this is why we encourage people to get supplemental policies—that 20% that we speak of is uncapped.Now, if you're going to the doctor once a year, that's not a big deal, right? But if you're going through cancer treatments, if you're going through some sort of outpatient surgery, you got to pay 20% of all of that cost, which certainly leaves people with some exposure, right?Zach: Got you. So, you know, no max out of pocket; you know, you're going to keep paying that 20—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: —until—and again, Part B is very similar to Part A, there's no networks.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: They take Medicare, they're going to take in. As long as you may have been doing this, I don't think I've ran into a doctor's office that doesn't take Medicare, yet.Nick: Yeah. In ten years, I've ran into one facility that didn't accept Medicare.Zach: Yep. So, kind of wrapping up Part B there. Know no, it is, in a sense, elective; when you turn 65 or retire from work losing credible coverage, you can pick up Part B at that time. If you don't pick up Part B without credible coverage, they are going to give you a nice little permanent penalty to add onto that, which for 2022 is $170.10. Probably going to see an increase in that down the road.Nick: Mm-hm. Absolutely.Zach: It's going to cover everything for you 80/20, whether that be durable medical equipment, diabetic testing, outpatient surgery, or anything like that. But that 20% is not going to be capped.Nick: Yep, absolutely.Zach: All right. And kind of moving on down the line. Here we've done A, we've done B. We're going to skip over C, so we're going to hit in Part D of Medicare. Easy to remember what it covers because covers your drugs. Part D: Drugs, easy to keep up with there. So, we have talked about, you know, in Part A and Part B, how you get it, what you qualify for. How does that work with Part D?Nick: Yes, so Part D, you know, it's worth mentioning, Unlike Supplemental Coverage, or Medicare Advantage coverage, which we will be covering in next episode, With Part D, the individual only has to have a minimum of Part A or B of Medicare, although most people have A and B, right? But it's worth noting for those individuals that are still working that are delaying Part B, just having Part A is enough to purchase Part D. And it's also worth mentioning, you have to live in the plan's service area, right? Part D drug plans are network-based, so you have to have a minimum of A and/or B, and live in the plan's service area to purchase a drug plan it.Zach: So, also we've talked about cost. When it comes to cost, A and B for the most part, are standardized. Is Part D the same way, or you know, what is its cost?Nick: Yes. So, one of the things that, you know, we're always telling people as we're speaking with them is all prescription drug plans are different, right? And, you know, we see drug plans anywhere from $6.50 a month in premium in the year 2022 All the way north of $100 a month, right? And, you know, it's like we say, if one plan was the best for everybody, right, they would put the rest out of the business.So, as far as costs, it certainly has a wide range, and that all depends on what the scripts, what medications those individuals are taking, right? But it's also worth mentioning, just like Part B of Medicare, right? Medicare Savings Programs can cover some or all of the costs of the drug plans and can also either reduce or completely eliminate the cost of those medications people are taking as well, right? So, it can come down. And it's also worth mentioning, IRMA coming back into play here, right, that Income-Related Medicare Adjustment, for those individuals that are higher-level earners, right, they have a multiplier on that Part D premium, so they would pay that multiplier on top of the standard premium for Part D.Zach: Pretty easy to see why Part D is the most complicated part of our job—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: When it comes there. So, you know, kind of covered, premiums are going to vary, and then on top of that you could get help through Medicare, or you could get a multiplier on Medicare there. So, what does it take to qualify for Part D? I know you said yet to have Part A and/or Part B, one or the other, but what if I'm-you know, what, if I'm in that boat where I'm still working? Do I have to take Part D if I have Part A, or can I forgo it?Nick: Yeah. So, very similar to Part B, Part D is elective right? Now, you have to have credible coverage to not be penalized, but you can delay it. So, if you're 65, you're becoming Medicare eligible, you're still working, or maybe you're retired and you're still carrying group insurance, you don't have to take a drug plan as long as your coverage is credible. And once again, credible [unintelligible 00:18:59] coverage is defined as coverage at least equivalent to Medicare's basic coverage, right?So, for those individuals that are still working, they are not needing Medicare Part D, they will not be penalized for not taking a Medicare prescription drug plan.Zach: So, you said they—you know, if they have credible coverage, they're not going to be penalized, which therefore means there's a penalty.Nick: Yep.Zach: What is that penalty?Nick: Yeah. So, it's a little bit different than the way Part B works. So, for Part D, the average cost of a per prescription drug plan in 2022 is approximately $34. So, every full month that they go without credible coverage, or coverage, they are going to be penalized 1% of that $34 premium in the year 2022, times the amount of full months they went without coverage. Now, it's worth noting that average premium costs switches year-to-year, right? We've watched that steadily creep up over the last few years.So, you know, it's very hard for us to be able to give people an exact penalty, what they would be looking at. Medicare is who's going to determine those, Medicare is who's going to issue those, so we can give people an idea, but ultimately that information has to come from Medicare, right?Zach: Got you there. So, you know, we know when you first turn 65 going into Medicare, you can get Part D, if you go that route.Nick: Yep.Zach: What if I've been 65 for a while and I get some new prescriptions, it's not covered well on my plan, when can I make changes to those?Nick: Yes. So, for those individuals that are new to Medicare, they're in that initial enrollment period, right? That window runs three months before their effective date up to three months after. Once that period ends, right, they're very limited in the ways that they can make changes, right, the most common is annual enrollment period, right? Anybody that's been in this business, knows anything about it, they get bombarded, you know, in that timeframe.But from October 15th through December 7th, those individuals can make changes, as many as they want, and when the sun goes down December 7th, the last application that was signed and turned in becomes effective 1/1, right? But now over the last few years, you know, Medicare introduced the Medicare Advantage open enrollment period, right, which is now running January 1st through March 31, and during that timeframe, individuals that are on Medicare Advantage plans can make a change to their drug coverage in two different forms, right? So, they can change from one Medicare Advantage plan to another Medicare Advantage plan, or if they so choose, they can drop Medicare Advantage back to Original Medicare and pick up a prescription drug plan. But outside of those two windows, Zach, the only other situation, typically, that we see people can make changes is they have a special election period, right? And in our business, what that means is, A, they're moving, right?In our area, we see people coming down from the north moving here, or maybe they're snowbirds, they're moving from here or the north down to Florida. Those individuals get a special election period because they're moving out of that plan's service area, right? And then the other caveat would be those individuals that are post-65 that are still working, that are still carrying group insurance, those individuals have a special election period when they retire and/or lose coverage that they can make a change to their drug coverage as well.Zach: So, kind of off that point, there are networks on these drug plans that does give you the ability to change if you do move because you would be out of your network service area—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: There. Yep. So, you know, we talk to people all the time, especially [AEP 00:22:44] about prescription plans. When you're talking to us, talking to your agent, whoever, when you're going through this, one, you know, what are some things you need to make sure you have handy to make our lives easier as an agent, but then what—tell them on our end what we're looking at, to help them make a decision?Nick: Yeah, so I'm going to answer that question backwards, Zach, okay? I'm going to answer your second question first, and we'll fire away on the second one. So, for those individuals that are looking, right, to get prescription drug coverage, there's several things that they need to understand about a plan, or at least grasp, right, to know why it is what we're doing, right? It's easy for us to recommend a solution, but we feel—I know, we've always discussed this—we feel that ultimately, you know, it's our job to educate people, but it is ultimately their decision, right?So, for us, you know, what we're looking at, you know, in the grand scheme here is overall cost, right? I mean, you know, that's what I want to know, what are these plans going to cost you, whether that's in the form of a premium, whether that's in the form of a deductible on your plan, whether that's in the form of the copays you pay to fill your script each year, we're looking at that aggregate annual cost, right? Now, as far as what we need to be effective as a tool for them in searching plans, you know, all plans are different, Zach, as we know. The premium is different, some plans have deductibles, some don't, some offers zero copay on tier one, tier two, some don't, right?So, what we ask of clients to be effective in this manner is we need a list of your prescriptions, we need to know the dosages of each one of your prescriptions, and then we ultimately need to know the frequency that you're taking them or filling them, and we have the ability to plug in and pull all options in their area and discuss those costs with them.Zach: Yeah, definitely. So, kind of wrapping up Part D, put a bow on it there. It is similar to B, it's elective—Nick: Sure.Zach: —in a sense. As long as you've got credible coverage elsewhere, you don't have to take Part D at the time you turn 65. As long as you have A or B, you are eligible for it. And plans vary. This is a plan that you definitely need to reach out to your agent, reach out to us—Nick: We'd prefer if it was us, Zach.Zach: Yeah. [laugh]. Oh, yeah. And so, you know—because they do vary so much by premium, deductibles, copays, networks, things like that, but they will cover your prescriptions; there are ways out there to work that.Nick: Yeah. Just to add, wrapping up here, Zach, you know, one of the things that we always preach to our agents and we always tell our clients is, this is the basics of everything that has to do with Medicare, right? So, we feel that these are important, people need to have a grasp of the way that Original Medicare and prescription drug coverage works before they're really ever going to have a chance, right, to know how that secondary or that Medicare Advantage plan works.So, as you're listening to this, we've kind of been generic, right? We're covering the highlights. For those individuals that have more questions that maybe have a specific question, you know, reach out to us, 844-437-4253. We're here, we're ready to answer your questions, and we'd certainly love to hear from you.Zach: All right, folks. So, this kind of wraps up episode one here. We covered Parts A, B, and D of Medicare. We hope that that helped you out there, answered some questions for you. We tried to cover some of the real basic questions we get on a daily basis.You know, but if you do have more questions or want more information, you know, ready to sign up and looking for help, we'd be more than happy to help. You know, as Nick stated earlier, you can always give us a call at 844-437-4253, or we can always be reached by email zach@getsbi.com or nick@getsbi.com. We hope you found this episode informational and helpful, and as always, we'll catch you guys next time.Announcer: Thank you for listening, and we hope you found this episode informative. If we answered your questions, odds are you aren't the only one wanting to know, so please share this episode with your friends and family. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and rate our show on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts to catch all of our episodes. If you want more information, or want to talk directly with Nick and Zach, you can call them at 1-844-437-4253. You can also find them on Facebook at facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc or on their website. seniors-livinghealthy.com. Thanks for listening, and have a great day.

Zach sits down with Alicia Wade, a results-driven leader who works as a district manager at Banana Republic, to speak about black female leadership. Alicia shares her career journey with us and offers some advice for young black and brown women entering the professional space. She and Zach also discuss the concept of proactive feedback and how to effectively solicit it at work.Alicia is the CEO of The HR Source - check it out!Connect with Alicia on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, you know what we do. We come to y'all and we bring to y'all, you know, some type of, you know, fire for your head top, right? We have some type of creative, executive leader, public servant, you know, public speaker, educator, entrepreneur, artist. You know, we have somebody, typically of the, you know, melanated variety, but sometimes not. Sometimes we've got some Winter Soldiers, or some Buckys, if you will. Some aspirational allies. But we're having real conversations that center black and brown experiences, and today is no different. Today we have the Alicia Wade. [air horns sfx] Now, listen here, for those who don't know, Alicia Wade actually was one of my first bosses. I'ma say bosses 'cause she is a boss, but she was one of the first people at my first job, when I worked at Target, that was in a leadership position that I had ever seen a black person in a leadership position--actually, the first time I had ever seen a black woman in a leadership position. But I don't want to go ahead and take away from her thunder, so I'ma go ahead and introduce her right now. Alicia, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Alicia: I am amazing. How are you doing today?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. Now, look, I gave a very, like, non-intro intro for you, so why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?Alicia: Okay. Where do you want me to start? 1980? [laughs]Zach: You know what? 1980 would not be that bad. Was it the day time or was it late at night?Alicia: It was the morning in the spring.Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, for sure. [laughs] But no, I was--you know, I started--you know, to your point around starting as a boss, I really wasn't always a boss. Maybe bossy, but for sure. You know, I--kind of just giving a background of education and then really where I started my career, but, you know, I went to the University of Oklahoma, so I have to shout that out because, you know, the amazing Boomer Sooner, and I actually did--Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yeah, my undergrad degree there, political science, communication, and then went straight to grad school. So for me I share that background because I just really, you know, was one of those black girls that had a list. I knew what I was gonna be. If you asked me when I was growing up, I just knew I was gonna be a lawyer, and then all that changed when I went to school and I was like, "I don't really wanna go to school for, like, three more years and, like, read and do all of that." So I went to grad school at Baldwin-Wallace. It's actually a university now. It was a college then. It is in Berea, Ohio. Do you know where Berea is?Zach: No, where is that?Alicia: So it is actually, you know, the campgrounds for the Cleveland Browns. So it is right outside of Cleveland in Ohio.Zach: Oh, okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, so if you fly into Cleveland, you're technically in Berea. So I was there, I did my MBA there, and I think through that journey I really realized that I had just a knack for wanting to be on teams, obviously being a student athlete and an athlete my whole life. I think that's really where I kind of moved into HR. So starting to your point around being one of your first bosses, I actually started with Target in their training program and did several roles there. So I had an opportunity to be at the store level, district and regional level in HR, and then actually--I was actually there for about 9 years and then moved onto Ross Dress for Less in an HR capacity and did that and then moved over to operations and did that for probably--well, how long when I was in operations there? For two years. So the total time I was there for 5 years, if you're following, and then now--Zach: I am.Alicia: Yeah. And then now currently I'm actually with Gap, Inc., with the Banana Republic division ["ow" sfx] as a district manager. So yeah, that's kind of where I am now.Zach: So that's incredible, and it's interesting. So today we're really talking about black female leadership, right? So you talked about this path that you went on, and then there were points in time where you kind of had to pivot, right? 'Cause you had this very clear plan. Can we talk about, like, what was the cause--what was the cause, like, for you to say, "Look, I don't want to do this particularly." 'Cause you said that you were drawn to being on teams, but, you know, you can be a team and still be a lawyer. So, like, what was the moment that made you say, "You know what? I need to do something different."?Alicia: Well, you know what? I think what I realized in being on teams is that, you know, kind of--I mean, I probably wouldn't say I had the words for it then or the language or even had done the discovery for my own, like, strength and [?] of what that really was, but I did realize that I was really good at making other people better. So to your point, being a track athlete. It could be, like, individual, right? You could do your thing and then also [?] relays, but I felt like at that point I did know that I was really good around motivating other people and that I had an energy that other people fed off of, and I don't know if that was necessarily--would have been [conveyed?] for me. Some people would have through a book or through research. So I just felt like, you know, that leadership role, I was always pushed in those roles. So, like, even when I was at OU, I was a black student president. I was in leadership roles through my sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha. If you have sound effects, it would be a good time to add that right there.Zach: You want, like, a skee-wee or something? I don't have anything like that. Aren't y'all--wait, y'all be suing people. I'm not messing with you on this. [both laugh]Alicia: It could just be an amazing, like, "Alpha! Kappa! Alpha!" So anyway--[both laugh]--you heard that? Like, that little echo? It was amazing.Zach: I did.Alicia: Yes, and you had a picture in your mind of it being magnified, right? [Zach laughing] But we digress. So, you know, through those experiences in college, I think that's where that discovery came for me.Zach: Okay. Okay, cool. No, no, no. Listen, I'ma tell you something, 'cause y'all do be suing people, 'cause I saw somebody was making a joke--somebody made a joke about Kamala Harris and they put that AKA symbol on there, and it was on Twitter, and all the reactions on Twitter was [Law and Order sfx]. I said, "Wait a second. Relax, everybody." [Alicia laughing]Alicia: Well, you know what? Well, at least that sound effects knows--I think all of us through our childhood know that something epic was about to happen. So at the very least it's like, "Wait a minute," and we got their attention, right? And we're compliant. We're compliant, so we're good.Zach: [ow sfx, laughing] All right, so let's talk about this, because you're--when you talk about the roles that you've had and kind of going through the leader--you went through a training program, right? So you went through, like, an actual development program when you started at Target. Can we talk a little bit about what are some of the core things you learned through that program and what are some pieces that you feel like you picked up through that program that you wouldn't have otherwise?Alicia: Oh, my gosh. You know, it was so interesting. I talked--it's funny, you know, looking at what you do now, right, and where I am, and how that all started there, right? And I see that a lot. So I talk to a lot of peers that are in so many different capacities now in their career, and we all talk about the commonality with this, right? So I think for me--the good part is when you work for a company that has very structured development, or I should say an expectation that a supervisor shows up a certain way. Even if somebody doesn't have the capability or even the want to do it, it happens. So with that being said, I didn't always have supervisors that were able to show up in that way for me, but I would say the biggest thing I've learned, and it's a life lesson, is how I manage my expectations of other people, right? And I share that because I hear that a lot, especially as I even mentor, you know, younger, to your point, black and brown people today. If they're entering to the workforce and they have this expectation because of someone's title or their age or, you know, maybe their past experiences, and when they don't get that they are very discouraged. So that was a big lesson for me because I just came in and--you know, being from Houston, I think, you know, when you think about, like, a Southern culture, you really, you know, have a lot of respect, you know, for people. So I was like, "Yes, ma'am," "No, sir," and then when I realized people didn't show up very professional in some cases, I had to--to your point through this program--really position myself to not let that be a distraction, and I share that background because I think one of the biggest things that I had to learn, particularly around communication, is I showed up very rigid in a lot of those environments, whether it was, you know, day-to-day, whether it was in a mixer or things--and there was a lot of promotional opportunities that passed me because people just didn't know who I was, you know? It was just kind of like--you know, it was--I showed up in the workplace thinking, "You just don't share those kind of things," right? Like, they don't need to know what I do at home. And people wanted to, and it was important. So it's interesting, even as you do the intro today to say I was the first person that you saw, right? A person of color that related to you. That was a journey for me to get there, to realize that, and that was a big learning. And even today, you know? Like, obviously with Coco, you know, in the tennis championships now and seeing her and all this conversation about how animated she is, and, you know, just--it's so raw. Like, that is kind of how I showed up, you know what I mean? And being an athlete, being an aggressive, being this--and that didn't always translate into positive for me. [laughs]Zach: No, no, I hear you. But this is the thing about that though, right? I think that we've also been--so I'ma speak for myself, and I've also seen, like, my peers, is black folks, you know, it's--there's a certain level of guardedness that we're taught to have just because, like, you know, "Look, there's only a few of us. Don't mess anything up. Don't put yourself out there too far." And I also think culturally we just have this thing around, like, sharing our personal business in ways that, like--there are things we just don't talk about at work, you know what I'm saying? And so there's this--but to your point though, there's this challenge of, like, "Okay, well, what's the line? How vulnerable can you make yourself?" Because people aren't gonna want to promote or work with somebody that they don't know. Like, most people anyway. I don't--I don't care. Listen, I just want to do the job. It's fine. But I'm learning, and I've learned, that, you know, people just feel more comfortable if they know you a little bit. And so my question is how did you create that cocktail for yourself? Like, how did you come into--you know, what is it that I really want to share? What will I still kind of hold back? Like, how did you kind of give yourself permission to be a bit more vulnerable at your job?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. So I can think of a couple of things. So I can think of an experience where I was actually interviewing, and I was pregnant at the time, and we were doing, like, a Skype, like, interview, because, you know, the actual people that were doing the mock interviews were in other locations, and it was an African-American female. She was in a supervisor position. And we're going through, and I'm thinking--and I share this story often--like, you know, I'm prepared. I've got all my notes. And the message I was trying to convey was someone who was reliable, right, and qualified. So I had all of that to the--you know, bringing that to the table, and I just remember her, like, cutting me off mid-sentence. Like, ugh. Who are you? I'm not feeling you right now, and you need to get it together. And, like, inside--you know, like, we all--we've done so much, particularly as African-American females, to pull it all together and present this package, and when someone is unraveling that it's like, "Wait a minute," right? And that's what happened in that moment for me. But to your point around creating that cocktail, that, like, having her say it's okay and seeing her show up as herself and still be professional, you know, and great at her job, like it wasn't this caricature, right? She was herself. She was professional. She was someone I looked up to, and she was still herself. She didn't become anybody else. It helped give me that courage. But I think for me, like, the steps towards that was me finding things that I was okay to share, right? Like, so to kind of, like, put a little, like, pinky toe in the water. So it's like, "Okay, I like to work out," you know? "So let me talk about that, and then maybe I'll build a connection," and then I just continued to build upon that, about things that, you know, I feel comfortable with, but then I think I learned in that is that that's what motivates people. And then I thought about--I made it personal. Like, I want to know what's important to my boss, right? Like, I want to know them as a person, and then when I started to meet with people and I started to, you know, move up in my career in multi-unit positions and interacted, to your point, at so many different levels with people, I was able to meet people at their level and then also connect at that level.Zach: So then what advice would you have, right, for the young black woman, young brown woman, coming into the professional space who does have it all together? 'Cause you're absolutely right, like, there is--and I believe this translates to black men as well. Like, you know, we try to come with, like, "Look, I got this, I got this. I'm tight. Like, I've got all of these different things. If they ask me this, I'ma say that. If they ask me this, I'ma say that." When you don't have someone who is gonna kind of give you the assurance that it's okay to be yourself and who isn't maybe, you know, guiding you along, what advice would you give to someone who is trying to break out of their shell a little bit?Alicia: Yeah. You know what? I would share--I guess this is where, like, the academic in me comes out, because I also teach at the University of Houston. So it's a great opportunity [ow sfx] as an adjunct professor--aye, let's go. I [?] from OU to our great Cougars here. Zach: To UH. Uh.Alicia: Yes, there we go. H-Town in the house. [both laugh] But one of the things that I share there with the students all of the time is around, like, the dialogue, right? And you have internal dialogue in yourself that you're having, and you can get distracted about maybe, you know, cues that you're not getting from people, right? So even in this conversation, there's things that you're doing that are affirming me that we're on track, right? And vice versa, and sometimes we don't get that, not because we're wrong--it's because you may be the first person that this, you know, particular person has interacted with like you, if that makes sense, right? So just because you may be sharing, right, about whatever that may be that's very personal or maybe you think is cultural and they're looking at you a certain way, that doesn't mean that that's wrong, right? Or that you shouldn't share it. It just may be a new experience, and you can't let those external things go along. Then it starts to spiral and you're not showing up as your authentic self. So I think you have to get to a place where "Hey, this is who I am," you know? And continue to show up that way, because any time I feel like you're--you feel like you are a fraud or you are trying to act like other people, you're never gonna come across as someone that other people want to be around anyway - in my opinion. So that would be my advice.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. Now, you know, you talked a little bit about your sorority, but, you know, everybody, Alicia, is not blessed to don the pink and green and wear the pearls and toss the [?] hair, right? Everybody don't have a community that they come into. So for the folks that are kind of doing [?], what does it look like--what would you suggest that they do to kind of build those networks in those kind of, like, trusted spaces?Alicia: Absolutely, and I think that is definitely something along the journey that I had to learn, even though I was in those environments, because no one in my family really has worked--like, most of--particularly the women are in education, right, and I was kind of brought up that if you weren't a teacher or a nurse, what do you do? Right? So I totally can relate to someone who maybe is not even able to go home or, especially as a new professional, being able to talk to your parents about your experiences, but I would say you have to be very intentional around finding--and not necessarily somebody that looks like you, but maybe they are--whether it's a position or they have the characteristics that you want to possess, that could be a star for you. I think the other piece is maybe somebody that's maybe struggling in the same area as you are, right? So let's say you see someone that is in a position that you want to be in, and let's say communication is your opportunity--it's, like, you're not necessarily the most articulate person, right, but you aspire to do, but you see that person is maybe in a certain role, connecting with them to ask, like, how did they work around that, right? And maybe you don't feel comfortable going straight to them. Maybe you're in an environment that that's not appropriate and you don't have that access to that person, but what events can you go to, right? Like, can you be intentional to say, "Hey, my work schedule doesn't necessarily afford me to do A, B, and C, but there is this networking opportunity at this time through my church," right? Look around you, and I think if you approach it, your development or an area of growth around the abundance as opposed to the limitations, you will find somebody that is gonna be willing to help you or even--they may not even realize they're helping you and you know you're going with that very intentional question and they can answer it for you and you get that nugget, right? [ow sfx] And then you just start believing it. Yes.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And you know what? I just--I appreciate this because, you know, it's about being resourceful, right? Like, you've got to reach out and use and just think beyond, you know, your initial, you know, four corners or whatever and just reach out a bit, because there are resources available. You've got Google, which is, like, this huge thing where you can, like, type in things into this, like, little square, and then when you press Enter then a bunch of things pop up. You know, there's just all types of resources out there, so you gotta get busy. You gotta get out there.Alicia: Right. But I think to your exact question, even though we have so much information, people are not necessarily more informed per se about specific things when it comes to their career, and I challenge people, particularly to your point minorities a lot and people in my circle where, you know what, their Instagram is popping, their Facebook, like, you have all the great pictures, angles, but then you don't have a LinkedIn account or you don't have an updated resume or you don't have a CV. So it's like you've invested all of this time of creating and crafting this image but not necessarily the same for your professional, right?Zach: Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] What you talking about? You're dropping these bombs over here talking about--so wait a second though, and I know you're church, so you're over here talking about "so you've crafted this image."Alicia: Yes, Jesus. We've got one of them anointed words right there, right? Yes, hallelujah. Zach: "But it's not real!" Then part of me, I was like ["and i oop" sfx]. You know what I'm saying? I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's real though. Alicia: Yes, wave your hands in there.Zach: No, that's true though.Alicia: Yes, it is, and it's just--recently I had a mentee that I was talking to, and she was preparing for an interview, but she'd post every day on, like, her Insta story, right? Like, videos. She looks beautiful in these videos. And I said, "Well, why don't you use something you do every day?" Like, you want to convey this message. Like, have you ever looked at yourself when you're trying to talk about your career? And she's like, "I never thought about that," and I said, "Well, you clearly like looking at yourself, right? So why don't you start there?" Like, it is around you. So that's what I would say. I think it's kind of step back, realize what you do have, and just start somewhere small, right? Like, it doesn't have to be a program that costs thousands of dollars. It doesn't have to be dropping the name of, you know, this person is my mentor or, you know, they have this title. It really may be the secretary in, you know, your particular office that is someone that is warm, that may be older than you that can give you some advice around navigating that environment that you can learn from at the level you're at right now.Zach: No, I love that. 100%. And I'm curious, you know, we talked a little bit about--again, we started off talking about leadership, and we talked about you coming into yourself. So that was self-management. Let's talk about what does it look like for you to manage others. Particularly what I'd like to talk about is, like, the art of influence, as well as really giving effective feedback. So you and I both--well, so you started at Target, I also started at Target, and I think a large part of the element of Target, the culture at the time was really about, like, you know, positive feedback, public praise, and I've seen that you've carried that forward in your positions with Gap, specifically Banana Republic, and how you give feedback. So can we talk a little bit about that and, like, your theory or your philosophy around feedback and, like, your practices on how you give it to your team?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. You know, I think feedback is something that I value, and I think it starts--you know, my brother and I talk about this all the time because he plays sports, actually football, and is currently still in the field with athletics, and we talk about how that shows up in the workplace of people that are used to being coached, right? Like, you're used to looking at a video and a group of people sitting around critiquing it, right? And really understanding that there's a moment that you have to capture right now. Like, you don't have another day or a week to wait. So I think that kind of shaped my philosophy per se, if there is one, is that you have to [?] find and be aware as a boss, right, or a manager of those coachable moments and not wait. You know, I think we've all been in situations where somebody sat us down and they had a list, and you think, like, "Wow." You know, like, all of these things that they're telling you that you need to get better at, or examples, and you're sitting there, and at a point you just look around like, "Wow, why didn't they tell me then?" Like, "I had no clue," right? So I think that's what I never want to be as a supervisor. I never want somebody to be shocked, right? And I also want them to know, like, "I'm giving you this feedback because I believe you can improve," right? 'Cause I think a lot of times, particularly--if I bring this to your point of our audience here of, like, black and brown people, particularly for black women, when I mentor them there's a lot of times the absence of feedback means that there's an absence of a problem. "Oh. Well, nobody told me that." It's like, "That does not mean that you didn't need to get better." And I think--I share that because the next part of it is, even in my self-journey and things like that or my own development, there's a lot of times I would get feedback and I would want to make it about the other person. Like, "Well, if they just got to know me, then they would know that's not really how I am." Like, "I'm not really like that," right? Or "If they gave me a chance to do it, then they would just know," opposed to thinking, "No, we're talking about this specific instance."Zach: Right now.Alicia: "Right now. Can you understand how you're showing up, how it could be--just the possibility of how it could be perceived this way?" And in that space, what can you control and move forward with? So I think with my team, I try to make sure that I create that--like, we create that as an agreed-upon communication from the beginning, right? Like, so they're not shocked, 'cause I don't want to assume that you've gotten this before, right? And I want you to also understand my intent. So we talked about in the beginning, like, "Hey, here's how I communicate. Here's what I do, and let me know if that works for you," and a lot of times I found that people don't really know how they like to get feedback until they get it. [laughs] 'Cause it's like, "Actually, I don't really want--" You know, they think that they don't like it or it's gonna be odd or it's, like, gonna be breaking them down, and then once they realize, like, this is gonna be a feedback-rich environment, then I think people buy in, but I also feel like it's a great way--I'm in a, you know, environment particularly in retail that moves very fast, right? And it is very results-driven. So if you are in an environment where productivity or--it's high-functioning, then I think it's very rewarding. I am aware that there are environments, right, like, when I go into, like, an educational space, where it's not as frequent, right? And you don't have--it's like an event when you get feedback. I think you really have to meet the person where they are, and I think you have to make sure that they understand where it's coming from, and that's my thoughts about it. Zach: No, I love that. And, you know, this is the thing, because--you know, background and upbringing is all very important, because I would just--for me, it was primarily my mom and I growing up, and my mom would just tell me all of the time, like, you know, "Hey, you need to do this better. You need to change da-da-da-da." Like, "You need to clean it up, boy. You're looking crazy out here." So it's not--it wasn't odd to me to get, like, direct feedback at work. I think it was reinforced by Target too 'cause Target was such a feedback--and I think retail is like that in general, as an industry, right? Because, like you said, it's results-driven, it's very action-oriented, and it's execution-focused and execution-oriented that you're gonna have to get this feedback 'cause we gotta get this stuff done, and so what has been a challenge for me though, Alicia, has been, like, transitioning outside of retail and just realizing, like, the--I don't know, like, just the fragility of folks. So, like, have you ever had a situation as a black person, as a black woman, giving feedback to a non-black person, and they, like, crumble like you've just destroyed them?Alicia: I have, yeah.Zach: Okay. Can we talk about it?Alicia: Yeah. You know, I can think of several. You know, there's one that's coming up, like, top of mind, but I probably would say it's pretty common, and this is how it happened. And to your point, you know, the person reacted very emotionally, and in that moment I had to pause and ask, like, "What are these tears about right now? Because what I'm saying shouldn't be causing tears," right? Like, I'm sharing an observation about something we already have--you know, sometimes you may have something that's very specific, right, that you can measure it, but I also find, particularly in being in the HR space, right, that it's very hard to coach people or for people to give feedback on something they can't measure. So to your point, you start having this very what feels like abstract conversation, like "What are we really talking about?" And then the person can become defensive if you don't have measurables to say, "Hey, look. See, this is what I mean." And in that particular conversation, that's what the person was--I would use the word argued. Maybe argued is not the right word, but they were, you know, disagreeing, right? Like, "Well, I don't see it that way," and I think we had to disagree in that space of "It is okay for you not to agree. However, what we have to agree upon is that you do have to value my opinion as your supervisor," right? "And let's also agree that we don't have to." Right? Like, we can be in this space and see this totally different--Zach: And it still be okay.Alicia: And it still be okay, you know? And I'm not asking you to change your perspective. I'm just putting you on notice, right, like, that this is the way that it looks to me and this is how I would like us to move forward, and in this particular conversation, the person was not ready to talk about the path forward. They weren't, because they were still stuck and just kind of thinking around, and I think you have to know, like, not to overbear--you know what I mean? Like, be overbearing.Zach: Yeah, overwhelming.Alicia: Yeah, overwhelming, 'cause this may be truly--regardless of their age, regardless of the position that they're in, this may be the first time that they've heard this, and you have to respect that, right? So to your point, you've grown up being told, like, "You're not all that. Okay, no, you need to go change," or, like, "Ugh," and that's not something that's crumbling for you, right? But someone that's never gotten honest feedback from someone that loves them, you don't know what that background is in the workplace, right? So somebody shows--Zach: That's real.Alicia: You know, somebody shows up, and then once again going back to that us being comfortable, right, and us being--like, you can't take that as that you did something wrong, because now you can retreat and not be operating in a space that you need to. So yeah, I've absolutely had that, and, you know, what I've done for me is that follow-up is really important. So comment back, like, "Let's agree upon a time on when it'll be good to revisit this," 'cause I find a lot of times for certain people avoidance is a tactic that they use, right, when it comes to conflict, and that's the most ineffective thing that you can do, right? Like, time does not cure all, right? In fact, it makes it worse, because we had this conversation 6 months ago and we still said nothing, right? Or that was last year during your annual review that we talked about it, or as a peer we worked on this project together, but that was--we only do that once a quarter, right? And I didn't really like working with you, and you had an attitude, or you were late, or I didn't really like the quality of your work, but we never really got to the root cause for us to move forward. So I come back to "Okay, you know, last time we spoke this is where we landed. How are you feeling today?" You know? And not let people off the hook with making it about you.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. That last part is huge, because it is easy for me--'cause I'm a bit of a narcissist, so--[both laugh] Alicia: It's something you--right, but you can internalize it, right? Zach: Right, absolutely. Like, and so it's like, "Okay, well, then, clearly this is something I did wrong. Okay, how can I improve?" And, like, you know, a part of you thinks, like, "Oh, well, this is me being accountable." It's like, "Yeah, but you're being accountable at a toxic--at a point that's not even accurate or helpful," because you're centering yourself and internalizing to the point that we're not actually getting to a solution, you know what I mean?Alicia: Yeah. But I think too to your point around accountability, and this is something that I've, you know, from a learning--you know, to your question initially, that's an area where, like, accountability overused has gotten in the way, right, for me of, like, working too much or, you know, it could come across as aggressive, or--you know, those things, and you're really overly accountable, and I think that's where understanding what accountability and responsibility looks like, right? So you may be in that environment. You're accountable for whatever that project, and that's why you're giving this feedback, but that person is responsible as well, you know, to show up a certain way or deliver in those areas, and how do you balance that, you know, so it doesn't--like, obviously you gotta work on, maybe in that space, what you need to do, but there's also something that they needed to work on, and we can't be distracted about how it came across to them, per se.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and you're right, like, we do overuse that word, and, you know, I think--again, like, it's an old phrase, but, like, accountability is a two-way street. Like, it's not--because if one person is always accountable and the other person is never accountable, then that's--that's toxic. Like, that doesn't make sense.Alicia: Yes, and I think if you become--like, especially when we think about giving feedback, right, and we're thinking about whether that's from a generational or we think about from a cultural standpoint, we have to make sure that that's a two-way street, and if you're the only person trying to work through this relationship, then you really aren't growing in how to manage and work with people that don't look like you.Zach: You know, I just--[straight up sfx] I mean, you're right. What can I say?Alicia: Hol' up! [both laugh]Zach: Man. Okay, so this has been a great conversation. So, you know, there are times for me where--you talked earlier about, like, people giving you feedback and, like, sitting you down with a laundry list of feedback. We also just talked about accountability and responsibility. For me, I really enjoy the idea of soliciting feedback, because I'm trying to--like, you know, in the idea of you trying to sit me down and have some laundry list of stuff, I'm just over here like ["stupid, i'm not gonna let you get the chance" sfx] You know what I'm saying? I'm just trying to, like, make sure I'm proactive, okay? Alicia: [both laughing] Right, right. Like it's above me now, right?Zach: Listen. Okay, so my question to you is what are your thoughts on proactive feedback? And what are ways that you solicit feedback from your team and from your leadership?Alicia: Yeah. So this is--oh, my gosh, this is definitely a gem for me when I think about just development for myself. I think I've been in situations where I've had supervisors that weren't able to give me feedback, right, because I was meeting goals, I was doing a really good job, and it was meeting their expectations, right? So you go and you ask and you solicit and it's like, "Oh, it's great." Like, "There's nothing you can do better," and that's never worked for me, you know? And maybe because the way that I'm wired, you know? Like, I really want to even get feedback around, like, what did you like? Like, what am I doing well so I can know what to repeat, right? Or even how I got the result, and I find often that people may achieve a goal, right, or whatever it may be, and it's kind of like, "Okay, we're so excited," but they cannot articulate how, right? And for me I feel like that's kind of--there's a silver bullet or a magic sauce, a cocktail, right, that you're creating on how to repeat success. You have to know what you did, right? Because it may be a different environment. So for me, that's really important for personal feedback for me, whether it be from a supervisor, a peer, or even my direct reports. Like, if we feel like we're in a good space, right--and I would start with direct reports--that I manage, I want to know what you like, right? So if you feel like, "Hey, communication is great," I want them to be very specific, but that's just how I'm wired, right? Like, I want to know - do you prefer this type of communication? Do you prefer this type of recognition? Okay, when we're working on a project, what level of autonomy do you like? So I ask, you know? I think there's some people that it's really easy for them and those that aren't, so I'll set it up. If we're gonna have, for instance, a touch-base, or we know we're gonna have a formal sitting down, [I] say, "Hey, when we connect, I want to give some feedback on how that went," and I'll put it out there, right, whether that's in a conversation or even written, for them to prepare their thoughts. So that's something that's worked for me. I think with peers, I have something that's helped me, particularly around communication and working on how I come across, 'cause that was something early in my career and I think still today. Like, my non-verbals. You know, like, that face? Like, okay. Like, having somebody in the room, you know, or your tone to say, "Okay, hey, you know, yeah, you did come across this way." I've always tried to solicit people that can help me in that area, and if they aren't there someone that I've seen that is an expert in the area or better than me. I go to them to say, "Hey, do you mind if I reach out to you, like, once a month just to get your ideas? It doesn't have to be long. Would it be okay if I maybe text you or shoot this over to you and you give me some feedback?" That's really helped also break down, you know, some barriers where--I don't want to say competition per se, right, but it's helped people also give [me] more feedback that maybe they wouldn't before, right? Because I've already put out there, "Hey, I'm trying to get better here. You've already got this locked down. I'm trying to learn. Do you mind if I just--you know, if I send this to you and ask questions?" Most people are gonna be very open. So that's something that I do a lot, and that's how I would say I solicit feedback or try to.Zach: No, that's--no, no, no, that's great, and I think, again, to your point around, like, "Well, no one told me anything so it must be fine," it's like the only time that I--the only time I take that attitude where "nobody told me anything, it must be fine" is if I ask you for feedback and you say, "I don't have any feedback," and then you come back later with something, then I'm like, "Hey, wait a second. You big buggin' now."Alicia: And you know what? Here's one thing. And, you know, I think we learn a lot from also bad supervisors or people we didn't like working for, and that was one. I had a supervisor that comes to mind, and that's--this is why I would say I take the approach now, because she didn't necessarily know what she wanted things to look like, but she did--she was very good at critiquing what you put forward, and that was SO demotivating for me. In fact, it was--like, it was emotional, you know what I mean? Like, I would just be, like, hurt by it, because it was like--to your point--I went to you, asked you for feedback--"Hey, here's my plan. This is what I'm thinking. This is the approach I want to take." And they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Check, check. Great." And then I [?]--you know, I felt [I?] was taking huge leaps or a risk in some cases, right, and we agreed upon this is what we were gonna do going forward, and then she would come back if maybe there were other partners that felt a certain way or it didn't resonate with them or she saw it and then would, like, kind of break me down, you know what I mean? That list would come out of "Okay, well, you could've did this, and you could've did that," and in that--at that time, I shut down. You know? So it became--I won't say angry, but the hurt became--I just took a list, and then I thought, "I'm never gonna do that again," and that didn't help anybody, particularly me. So I think that's when I--to your point, trying to get ahead of it now, like, not letting somebody that says, "Oh, I don't have anything to share," get in the way--get in the way of me moving forward.Zach: No, you're 100% right, and I think--so it's both and, right? It's you were looking for the feedback. You were soliciting it, and then you--not using that as a blocker, right? No matter what you get. So if you don't get anything, don't use it as a blocker. If you get something that doesn't really align with what you think it is, then don't use it as a blocker either. Just make sure that it's something that you're taking the time to do, but it shouldn't impede you from moving forward towards whatever goals that you have. I think--like, a mentor that I have who--she's told me this a few different times. Shout-out to you, Liz. I see you. What's up?Alicia: Hey.Zach: Hey. Come on. So Liz was like "Look--" And Liz is a mentor of mine. She's a great friend, and she was also on the show a few episodes back, actually during Pride Month, but anyway, so look. Liz said--she said, "Look, Zach, you know, the beauty of feedback is you don't have to agree with it. You don't have to take all of it." Alicia: [laughs] Right.Zach: She was like, "You know, Zach, I think you're burdening yourself with every time someone gives you feedback, you take that as, like, a mandate that you need to change something." Like, that's not--that's not what feedback is. Feedback is something for you to consider. So the best thing you can say to someone giving you feedback? "Hey, thank you for your feedback." That's it. [laughs] That's it.Alicia: For sure, and that's so important to your point. It's like, there's--if you can compartmentalize things, right, then you can do something with it later, because that feedback may be relevant at another time, and then you can see it, right? When it shows up again, but today I don't necessarily have to create a plan based on what you said. I can just put there and say, "Oh, okay. That's Zach's feedback that he gave me today. Okay. All right. Hm. I don't necessarily see it, but thank you." And it stays right there. Yeah, I think that's awesome.Zach: And that's it. But I think some of the challenge when it comes to just, like, bias in the workplace, and, like, there's also, like, this underlying and sometimes overlying expectation that women, particularly black women, are just, like, the workhorses of whatever. So, you know, sometimes I've been told--you tell me if I'm right or wrong, but, like, sometimes people give you feedback with the expectation that you're just gonna do what they say, and it's like... that's not necessarily the case. Like, I'm just gonna take this feedback, and I will--I will make a determination as to how, or if, I implement it into what I'm doing.Alicia: Yes, for sure. I think--no, I agree, I think that is true for me and what I've seen. And even more, to take it a step further--'cause I know we've talked through a lot of tips on this podcast around, you know, how--you know, interviewing tips and moving forward, right? I see this a lot in interviewing people and them not being able to explain why they haven't moved forward, right? They feel like it's someone else's--you know, someone else's... I don't know even the word. Like, it's their responsibility or their fault. We'll use the word fault, right? Of "Okay, I'm here," and they can't say why, and to me it's like, "Okay, you've never gotten any feedback or no one's ever told you or you're not able to look at this job or see someone in that role and see what they do better than you and what--maybe even the one thing they do better than you--and what's held you back?" And that's the approach I take for feedback. Like, if you can think about it in that way opposed to, to your point, something that you have to change or take on or feel like you've got to bow down or become someone different, but really as a lens for you to see things that you may not be seeing. So that's what I see often, particularly for black women.Zach: Man, this has been great. Alicia, before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Alicia: Shout--I mean, when you say let you go, I feel like we've got to queue that Beyonce, and that has to be in the background that we have here, but--Zach: Again, I don't know what you don't understand about [Law and Order sfx]. We can't do that. I don't own Roc-a-Fella or whoever she--or whatever she signed that thing through, or House of Dereon, LLC. I don't know. Listen, we're gonna have that nice, you know what I'm saying, copyright-free jazz music that you hear in the background. Trying to get us in trouble. We already said AKA a few times. They're gonna be knocking on my door. Now you're talking about--Alicia: No, they're not. They're gonna be looking at this. We're gonna be--they're gonna be helping with [?] mass media, passing it out here. But no, seriously--Zach: Come on, now.Alicia: You know what I mean? But no, seriously, I want to--you know, if there's a recognition, I want to recognize you, because I think, you know, creating this space, A. to have conversation, is one thing, right? But I think you being very intentional around making sure that the conversation has different perspectives, whether that be from industry, you know, whatever, right? I think that this is just very phenomenal, and I've seen, like I've said, from the beginning when you first sent out this podcast to where you are now. So I just want to, you know, tip my hat to you, brother, and really seeing how you brought also other people in to expand--it's just fantastic. While keeping your full-time job. So round of applause. I'm super excited and just happy to be a part [kids cheering sfx]--yes. So anything, you know, that we can do in the future, any way I can continue to add to the conversation, would be the shout-out. So thank you as well. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you've got me blushing. I'm turning purple. I appreciate this. And you know what? Shout-out to you, okay? 'Cause, like I said, you were one of the first people, and, you know, the thing about it--see, the thing about Alicia--now, look, I know we have this natural hair movement now and everything. Let me tell you something. Back in, like, 2011, I walked into Target doing my thing, Alicia came through edges LAID, okay?Alicia: All the time.Zach: Okay? Pearls. Pearls thick, y'all. Don't play. And she had heels on, and she was moving. She was working the floor. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is incredible." So shout-out to Alicia and your whole brand, everything that you do, everything that you've done. Shout-out to of course, you know what I'm saying, 1906, you know what I'm saying? I got y'all. Pink and green. I respect y'all. Please do not come for my neck. Please. I appreciate y'all. I did not put no logos on this stuff. Alicia: There will be a logo though, in the show notes.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Okay, yes, so we will put a logo in the show notes. It will show all of the legal information and that we are not indemnified by anything--[both laugh]Alicia: You are so silly, for sure.Zach: [laughs] Okay, but look, final air horns for you--[air horns sfx]--and you know what? This has been it, y'all. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Of course this has been Zach. You've been listening to Alicia Wade. Now, look, I usually say all of the little Twitter stuff, but look, we brolic now, okay? So I don't have to say "follow us on this." Just Google Living Corporate, okay? Google me. What was that--oh, yeah, Teyana Taylor I think made that song called Google Me. But no, for real, shout-out to Teyana Taylor too, but look, Google me. Just Google Living Corporate. Living--L-I-V-I-N-G--Corporate. I'm not gonna spell out corporate. I don't have the time. But check us out. We're everywhere. Appreciate y'all. We'll talk to y'all soon. Peace.

On today's show, Zach sits down with Jorge Corral, Accenture's Office Managing Director for Dallas/North Texas. He speaks about his experiences as a first-generation professional and what fuels his passion for Latinx representation in the STEM fields, and he also shares three points of advice for Latinx professionals.Connect with Jorge on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, if you didn't hear the last time or the last time before the last time, I gotta share something with y'all, okay? Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most experienced black and brown North American managing directors to share their journeys. My hope is that you check these out and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our next guest, Jorge Corral. Jorge Corral is the Accenture office managing director for the Dallas/North Texas region. He is the global lead for Accenture's sourcing and procurement business for the products industry and also leads Accenture's Southwest retail practice. Hold on. So look, he got both of these places, right? He got both of 'em, okay? Jorge serves as a senior business advisor to many senior global Fortune 500 executives and has helped a wide variety of large retail and consumer goods companies to drive top-line growth and to improve their profitability through transformational change. He has spoken as an expert at various retail, shared services, inclusion and diversity, and procurement conferences. He is a board member of the United Way of Metropolitan Dallas and the Dallas Regional Chamber. Jorge was recently profiled in the D CEO Magazine list of the most powerful business leaders in Dallas-Fort Worth. Listen, the most powerful business leaders. Not the most powerful Latinx business leaders, not the most powerful leaders of color. One of the most powerful business leaders period, okay? Check that out. Sound Man, go ahead and give me them air horns for that right there. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? And no disrespect to the--you know, making sure that you have the specifications around identity, but what I'm saying is he's just cold, right? He's just--he's that guy, okay? [laughs] In 2018, Jorge was recognized as one of the top minority business leaders by Dallas Business Journal and was also a finalist for D Magazine's 2018 Latino Executive of the Year. With that being said, the next thing you'll be hearing is the interview I had with Jorge Corral.[pause]Zach: And like I said right before the break, we have Jorge Corral with us. Jorge, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.Jorge: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Zach. It's a pleasure.Zach: Man, it's a pleasure all mine, trust that. So, you know, I just want to go ahead and just give a little bit of cheers--[children applause sfx]--for the fact that you're here. We appreciate that. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Jorge: Yeah. My name is Jorge Corral. I'm the Dallas office managing director at Accenture, which means I lead an office of more than 2,000 people in the Dallas-Fort Worth region, and my job is to really bring the services of Accenture and everything Accenture has to offer to solve business problems for our Dallas clients. And it's also about connecting Accenture more broadly to the DFW community. I also work in Accenture's management consulting practice, helping companies transform their businesses in different ways. I studied engineering and have two graduate degrees in mechanical engineering, and I also have a master's in business administration. And on a personal level, I have four kids and a wonderful wife. I was raised in a large Hispanic family in California, in Southern California to be specific. I was raised with five awesome siblings in a very large extended family, and frankly I think that's what set me up for success in the world I live in now, in consulting, because at the end of the day consulting is all about relationships, and I certainly learned plenty about relationships and relationship skills growing up in a big extended family.Zach: That's incredible. So, you know, you're talking about the fact that you came from relationships, and then that--and like you said, that translates into the relationships you now manage, not only internally within your Dallas office, but also externally in your community building and relationship building, which we're gonna talk about today. But, you know, you had a bunch of flexes within your bio. You talked about your professional background. You talked about your educational background. You talked about your family. You know, I can't really say congratulations on every single thing 'cause, you know, we only have, like, 30, 45 minutes, but I can drop some air horns. So let me just go ahead and--[air horns sfx]Jorge: [laughs] You are too nice. Thanks.Zach: No, no, it's not a problem at all. Now, in an interview with The Business Journals last year, you talked about better integrating the Accenture Dallas office with the Dallas community, and you expounded on some corporate partnerships that you helped build and amplify. Can you share more about the role of influence and relationships that they play in an executive position, particularly as a member of the Latinx community?Jorge: Yeah, I mean, I--I'll share to begin with that I like to live by one of the principles I learned from many people along the way, including my parents, and that's I really believe we're all responsible for making the world a better place, today and for the future. So for me, I personally didn't get to where I am by accident. I got a lot of help, directly and indirectly, along the way, and I recognize that many people broke a path so that I could have my opportunities. So I'm happy to find a way to give back, and in my Accenture role, you know, I'm really lucky and truly fortunate to be able to give back in different ways. So an example, over the last couple of years I've been able to join the board of the United Way of Metropolitan Dallas, and two years ago, we, Accenture, were able to commit to being the presenting sponsor of their Social Innovation Accelerator program. That really helps accelerate and mentor new non-profits that are providing support for our communities in different ways and solving problems that are around education, income, and health for our DFW community. So I've also been able to speak to Latinos on various platforms is another thing that I've had the opportunity to do, and that's both internally and externally. So internally as part of the Hispanic-American employee resource group leadership and externally at places like the University of Texas-Arlington's Center for Mexican-American Studies, where I've gotten just a lot of reward from being able to mentor Hispanic youth with a lot of promise. And I also have had the chance in the local community to serve on different panels, and one of the panels that I'm able to serve on from time to time is, you know, where we bring in 200+ middle school and high schoolers, and I just share some of my life stories and my life experiences up on the stage. And it's less about the story I tell you and more about sometimes when you're young, just looking up on the stage and seeing somebody that looks like you, sounds like you, that alone makes things possible. So I'm happy to give back in whatever way I can.Zach: Jorge, that's all facts. You're absolutely right, you know? It's interesting, because for me, you know, I thought about getting into consulting, and I--for me, I didn't even know it was something possible until I was in college and I just happened to see a black man who told me he worked at Accenture. And I was like, "What is--" You know, "What is that?" Right? And it went from something, you know, abstract and kind of esoteric to something actually very practical and possible, right? So 100% agree there. And speaking a little bit more about sharing your story, right? You came from humble beginnings as a son of Mexican immigrants. So not only you are a first-generation corporate professional, you're also a first-generation American as well. So what do you think are some experiences that are exclusive to first-generation Americans of color, and what advice do you have for those who are also the first in their family to really enter corporate America?Jorge: Well, I'll say that's a big, big question. I'll share my--I'll share my life story and a little bit about myself in hopes that, you know, some of that would--people could relate to it and maybe get something out of it. So I would just say that I feel really lucky and privileged in my background, because I'm part of a connected, large, loud, proud, loving, bilingual, bi-cultural family, and for me that is--I can't imagine a different life for myself. And for me I was very lucky 'cause I had very good role models. Like a lot of immigrants, my parents had an ambitious vision and were willing to put in a lot of hard work and invest the bulk of their lives so that their kids could have big, big opportunities. My parents were big, big into education as the way to advance us, and they sacrificed a lot for me. And, you know, in a lot of ways they didn't just talk about it, they lived it. So I'll tell you a quick side story. My mom went back to college at age 40 when I was 12 years old with six kids at home and a part-time job. So, you know, you can't imagine a better role model, right? And I also had smart, ambitious siblings who helped me too. So, you know, I've been really lucky in a lot of ways with my family life, and I'm also really grateful 'cause I've got a lot of help from different mentors along the ways in different ways and different ones over time. People helped me as I went through my education. People helped me as I entered the workplace and continue to help me, and I've been lucky to navigate the workplace because a lot of times--a lot of times you just don't know, and if you're first-generation and you're learning as you go, a lot of times you just need a little help with navigating. And, you know, we talked about before with sometimes just seeing somebody out there that's done it before that looks like you is helpful, but it's also--and it's also helpful for people to just give you a little bit of coaching along the way and tell you--maybe it's just a little nugget of information, maybe it's just a little bit of support, but all of those things kind of add up to a lot. So I would just say--when you ask me some of the different things, I'll just share a couple. First, I do think you need to be willing to work hard and also be willing to adapt to new things when you're going through experiences new. So if you're first-generation, things are new, and you just have to adapt and be flexible, and it's hard to be at first, so you just need to try to do your best to be the best you can, and then learn fast in terms of school, work, whatever. And then, as I mentioned, just get help along the way and really ask for help. And then second, I think you have to be tenacious, and maybe sometimes even a bit stubborn, and not let things get in the way, 'cause there's times when maybe you get frustrated or discouraged, but one thing I learned from my parents was not to give up, and I think it's a strength of our culture and just the immigrant culture in general.Zach: Man, I love that, and I--you know, it's interesting, because, you know, you're talking about immigrant culture, and you keep alluding to your family--and I love that, Jorge. That's so dope. You know, Living Corporate really is a space for black and brown professionals in the workplace, but transparently--I'm just keeping it a buck with you, right? Like, we have had some challenges in engaging minorities that are not a member explicitly of the African diaspora, right? So, like, what advice would you have for how black and Latinx professionals can be better allies and supporters for one another in the workplace? I mean, is there any--one, of course, any insights you have directed to that, but then have you had any experiences within your ERG on how you work with other ERGs at Accenture and how y'all practice community or allyship there?Jorge: Yeah. I mean, I think I would just begin by saying a lot of people of color--people of color share some experiences. Not all experiences, but a lot of experiences. I think we all would agree that we need a diverse world where everyone participates and feels included, but I think we all know that that's not always the world we live in. And it's hard to feel successful when you feel excluded. So I do think that while different groups are different in their own way, many of the experiences are similar, and there's a lot to learn from each other, and we all need to help each other. I would say in my life I've learned, and maybe had to learn, that everyone is different in their own way, but when you're a kid--you know, when I think back on it, on my childhood, when you're a kid you just want to fit in and not be different, and that follows you in different ways throughout your life, but I would also say that over time you grow and you learn, and I've learned that what makes you different is really what makes you special. But even today, I mean, if I'm being honest, if I'm being real with you, at times I find myself in situations where I look and sometimes feel different from everyone else, and when I do I remind myself that everyone, regardless of who you are, where you come from or what you look like, sometimes feels isolated, excluded, removed, alone, and it's simply a shared human experience. But it feels very--very personal. So in those moments I need to get past it, and so we all need constant reminders and maybe some help to remember, particularly if you're a person of color. So, you know, at Accenture I'm fortunate to work at a place, at a company, that's a leader in the market around inclusion and diversity, and we spend a lot of time collaborating across the African-American and the Hispanic-American ERGs so that everyone can learn from each other. We have summits together, and I like to think we share pretty well and help each other.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Just a light Flex bomb. Nothing too crazy. I love that. You're absolutely right, right? Like, when you--and the reason why I ask is because I think it's easy for us, in our differences, to sometimes, like, huddle up, and then in those huddles we then create, like, factions, and we kind of miss the point, right? Like, ultimately, all of us--while, yes, the experiences are not uniform by any means, we have a lot of shared experiences, and it's in those experiences that really should create some empathy that we have for one another. And I--you know, and I think that's really, really powerful. So you're passionate about Latinx representation within STEM, and you've alluded to some of that at the beginning when you talked about yourself a bit. What fuels your passion in this space?Jorge: Yeah. I mean, I'll just--I reflect on my life and, you know, unfortunately, many times in my life I've been one of the few or maybe the only Latino in many work, school, and professional situations, and I'm encouraged because over time I like to think it's gotten better, and now when I look at the people we're recruiting into Accenture, there's more people that look like me, and there's more people that come from diverse backgrounds. But it's not enough, you know? We're not there yet. And rest assured we'll continue to push for better representation, more diversity, more equality, et cetera, and it's important because we know when it comes to STEM that STEM jobs are one of the fastest-growing segments with a lot of opportunity, and STEM businesses are also influencing our society, but when you open up a business or tech magazine you still see very few Latinos, and as I've said, for us to grow and solve our world's problems, we need everyone to be included. So yeah, I think it's really important. I think STEM's really important, and for me, having a STEM education has helped me in many ways and I think opened the door to many of the opportunities that I have. So I want that for my community and for our extended communities.Zach: I love that, and if you could give three points of advice to Latinx professionals--just three big ones, 'cause I know you have a ton of experiences and insight and just points of success and things that you've done, but if you could boil all of that into, like, three nuggets, what would they be?Jorge: I'll give you three that come to mind, and I think these would probably change if you ask me tomorrow, or they may be nuanced or different a little bit, but I just think--the first one I would say is something I try to remind myself, and that's "just think bigger." I think we all limit ourselves. We limit ourselves in, you know, our day-to-day lives. We limit ourselves in our long-term goals, and I think we all just need to remember to think bigger. You can do more than you think you can. I think--I shared earlier one of the big things that I've learned and live by is just to be tough and keep going. Sometimes just being stubborn and having a goal and just keep pushing for it is the important thing. Just be tenacious. And then finally I would just say remember to give back as you advance your life, as you advance your career. I think we all have a responsibility to help others and to give back in whatever way you can. Those are three that come to mind for me.Zach: I love it. Thank you so much, and those are really powerful, so I appreciate that. And of course this has been incredible, and I just want to thank you again for taking the time and speaking with us today. Before we let you go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs?Jorge: No. I mean, I agree. It's been an incredible experience. I appreciate it. I thank you for having me. It's been really a pleasure to spend time with you today, Zach, and I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.Zach: Hey, man, thank you. The pleasure is all mine, and we definitely consider you a friend of the show and would be honored to have you back.Jorge: Thank you.Zach: All right, peace.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

  Zach - Hey everybody, welcome to Brotherhood Without Manners a Game of Thrones podcast by Game of Thrones fans for Game of Thrones fans. Zach - I'm Zach- Nate - and I am Nate- Zach - And we are two brothers who- Nate - Have no manners what so ever. Zach - Well, obviously that's in the name right there, but we absolutely fell in love with George R.R Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series when we read it and we couldn't seem to ever shut the fuck up about it. Nate - So here we are. Zach - So here we are we said why not throw it into a podcast. We will be doing a full spoiler reread of the entire series. Uhh Game of Thrones through a Dance with Dragons and possibly some of the other books. Later on down the line, but right now we're mainly focused on the main series. Nate - So this isn't a s how related podcast as of yet, Zach - We'll probably throw in some shi...show references. Nate - Right, that doesn't mean that we're not going to. Zach - I mean with the last season on the horizon anyway- Nate - But our cannon is specifically focused on the books, Zach - Right Nate - And so not the show but again, we are also big fans of the show Zach - Now you don't have to if you haven't read the books before or you aren't starting to reread with us you don't have to worry about any spoilers in this episode this episode we just want to familiarize you guys with us and get to know who we are ummm, and just a little bit about us why we're so obsessed with martin's podcast. Nate - Okay, So one of the first things that we wanted to dive into is how we even discovered Game of Thrones as a series Zach - Cause you read it first. Nate - I read it first and then fucking you. Took how many years of me prodding and begging to get you to get your ass to read it- Zach - I remember specifically I would try reading it and I would get through the prologue and half of brans first chapter and I would think nope not for me because it reminded me so much of Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Rings I I could never follow the lineage the chain...the chain of names that you had to go through so I thought it was another one of those little did I know Nate - That's the big factor that draws everyone to it... Zach - Absolutely Nate - So when I first was introduced to it it was maybe a year before the TV show was put out on to HBO. Zach - Probably like twenty ten. Nate - And so yeah, it was..uh I was working at the radio station and the DJ I was interning for gave me the book as a Christmas present and he said you've got to read this they're making it a show just do it. And so thankfully he gave that to me and I spent years by myself just Zach - (Laughing) Nate - Wondering if I would ever- have somebody Zach - I do things in my own time, get off my back umm, I Yeah. Yeah. No, I just I couldn't get into it. But when I did when I finally after not only you but many friends around me were shoving this book under my nose saying how have you not read this yet? You've read Potter you you've consumed countless other trilogies and series. Why are you not reading Game of Thrones? I finally decided to give it a chance and I said alright I'm gonna finish this was after the show. You had shown me the show at this point. So we had watched season 1 So I was a little bit spoiled on it but I loved how actually word for word season 1 and book 1 were and that I mean how would you not get hooked on book 1 by the end of it? Nate - Right. Zach - There's just so much to you know, what's gonna happen with so-and-so and what happened with certain characters and- Nate - So because obviously we had different introductions to it I gave you a bit of a bit of background on it trying to get you into the book but based off of that and what you can remember what was It you were actually expecting Game of Thrones. Just to be Lord of the Rings?- Zach - I still, I..I...I, I still remember the way you described it to me you said it was like a group of Sith Inquisitors trying to take a royal throne and so you you through the Star Wars reference in there, which of course it's gonna hook me but So I...I actually went in thinking it was gonna be a little more sci-fi than fantasy and I mean I wasn't disappointed because I do think that this could technically classify as sci-fi in this in this crazy crazy world of Planetos, That were on Nate - I think in the meta scheme of things. Absolutely- Zach - But I I thought it was gonna be another Lord of the Rings a carbon copy of you know, here's good Here is evil. Here's the line. Let's do battle and it'll be a great fun adventure then I heard Martin explained himself that the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself and that quote alone. Just kind of epitomizes what the series is is everyone in conflict with themselves which is just so fascinating to read let alone the slew of characters we go through it with not just you know, we're not just with Legolas Aragorn Gimli we're with Eddard Stark and Sansa Stark and Catelyn Stark- Nate - And their house and then we're in this house with this group of people Zach - Exactly Yeah- Nate - It's not just one- group Zach - So widespread. What did uh... Nate - So for me like cause uh...the way it was introduced to me just being gifted and the guy that gave me the book didn't really give me much to go on so I didn't really have any expectations Zach - Right, right- Nate - And I don't usually because of how name required it was to know all these names know everybody understand to really get a grasp of it I didn't think I was gonna like it I stuck with it just because I really respected that guy he enjoyed it so much and then once I got into it, I was like wow, this is I can't not stop reading i dont know whats going on. Zach - yeah yeah absolutely I...I remember umm...I didn't hear the actual title a Song of Ice and Fire until maybe I'd finished clash I...I...didn't know that the whole Nate - oh that is was the whole Zach - that it was a whole series was called A Song of Ice and Fire and that when I heard that actually I've looked at the books in a new light I've read them in a new light because I was wondering who who does that apply to who is the Song of Ice and Fire about? Is it the whole world? Is it a set of people? Did did that have any sway on you? Did you think anything Nate - I, see I I really took that just into I didn't actually look at it as how it applied to the story for a long time umm, because similarly. I just thought it was a you know play on the houses and the very basic of it. Zach - Right, because there's nothing to read into in Game of Thrones- Nate - right not at all- Zach - between the lines- Nate - And so at the time the only other named trip series like that I read the inheritance cycle by Paolini and the Eragon books and I really enjoyed those but that was the the I think it's called the inheritance cycle Zach - Yes Nate - that's the title of the the series and I hadn't really heard much of that because you know you had Lord of the Rings and you had the two towers but umm, Granted I'm probably just stupid and there actually is a whole term for the Lord of the Rings groupbut like Zach - I dont know if there is, yeah so you could be right. Nate - So like it was just something I thought was the title to describe the group- Zach - Yeah yeah the grouping of it. Nate - It wasn't I think until really I heard about the the song of the dance of Ice and Fire you know the Song of Ice and Fire in the actual Zach - context of the story Nate - where they were, you know, oh well the Song of Ice and Fire we've got that song like that's actually a thing and Im like oh shhhh.. Zach - yea yea yeah yeah, not to get too far ahead but his is the song of Ice and Fire is actually aligned and yes, absolutely I I just know that this book was unlike anything I had ever read before or since even even today while we're still fingers crossed waiting for winds of winter And we just got fire and blood which I'm currently working my way through right now while waiting for the last season I mean there's a plethora of information that we've been getting new Canon Which is one of the most exciting things to me because fire and blood is just continuously blowing my mind so I'm super excited to dive into this podcast and go chapter by chapter and breakdown and again if you haven't read the books I would only listen to this episode because from this point on we will be looking at chapters in context of the whole series whether Nate - yeah, this is a full reread we've we're going through it having read everything and that's how we're planning on analyzing and discussing these each chapter analytically breaking down each individual one with regards to trying to see the foreshadowing throughout the story as a whole not even just each book but the entire series is we have it all the current lore all the current books which as of this date Includes the new fire and blood book that just came out Which obviously means that a world of Ice and Fire is also out on the table Zach - And Dunk and Egg, Woot WOOT Nate - And so we'll be putting everything in context breaking it down comparing it to the story. You know- Zach - Don't get us wrong. We're by no means experts analytically Literature or any otherwise Nate - We just are massive massive massive fans Zach - Massive fans. I...I mean I think three hours of every day of mine is either spent on a subreddit of Game of Thrones or watching YouTube theories and videos on it or- Nate - or just rereading the books and trying to figure out my own theories Zach - yeah, absolutely. It's an amazing series so if you haven't read it take a minute read the books and come back and listen to us because we would love to hear your discussion We definitely would like everybody to write in and let us know if you have thoughts or questions if we say something completely stupid that you disagree with Nate - Or incorrectly, correct? Zach - I mean Nate's always incorrect. So just correct the shit out of him. But, Ya, no just write in and let us know your thoughts and questions what was your favorite chapter of a Game of Thrones again will be probably be doing it in uh, Two chapter blocks where each episode will cover probably cover about two chapters but um, you know that's subject to change depending on chapter lengths or just a flow some chapters tend to, lead right into the next one quite well, but ya, no, Nate - Not to mention our availability for all that but you know Zach - He's not busy. Don't he's not doing anything except this podcast Nate - and so make sure you hit up all of our socials you can get ahold of us at our Facebook, facebook.com/Brotherhoodpodcast our twitter @mannerswithout our Instagram @brotherhoodwithout we also have an email withoutmannersBrotherhood@gmail.com so hit us up and Stay tuned for our next episode where we're really gonna dive into everything (outro music resembling Game of Thrones theme fades in) Zach - Right in the prologue of Game of Thrones the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire. umm I love the prologue I think it's a great intro to the whole book as a whole and I'm really excited to look at it through the lens of the entire story so hopefully you guys can tune in with us and stop by one of our social media platforms and just say, hello. give us a like, ya know? We're here Nate - Later Yo! Zach - Peace! (Outro music comes to crescendo and ends)

We have the pleasure of sitting down with career coach and resume writer Tristan Layfield to discuss what goes into landing the job of your dreams and how to achieve that goal.Find out more about Tristan here: https://layfieldresume.com/about/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach.Ade: And you're listening to Living Corporate. So Zach...Zach: What's up?Ade: So we have another B-Side, but this is the last full episode before our Wrap Up episode this month. Zach: Sheesh, already?Ade: Yeah, man. It's been such a wild ride. Can you believe it's only been seven months since we got started? In that very, very short time, we've had some dope conversations, some amazing guests, and more than a few funny moments.Zach: [laughing] For sure, but you know what? We'll talk all about that in our Season Wrap Up episode in a couple weeks.Ade: We sure are.Zach: That's right, but today, we're gonna talk about landing the job of your dreams.Ade: The job of your dreams? That reminds me of that lottery that got over a billion dollars.Zach: A billion dollars. Oh, yeah. What would you do if you had all that money?Ade: Who are you kidding? I wouldn't do just one thing. I would open a restaurant, travel the world, open free clinics and schools all around the world. Pretty much whatever my heart could possibly desire. I think that's the definition of a dream job, something that you would do if money wasn't a concern. What's your dream job?Zach: So I have to start with my passion, right? So my passion is people and creating platforms that amplify the voices and experiences of underrepresented people, so a lot of really what Living Corporate is doing. So my dream job would have to heavily involve Living Corporate for sure.Ade: Ayyyy. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone like a career coach, but not just any career coach. Maybe a public speaker, someone with professional resume writing experience, an educator. Someone who's been featured in a variety of publications. Let's throw maybe black enterprise in there, and maybe he focuses his work on underrepresented people, especially millennials worldwide but also around his hometown of Detroit, Michigan.Zach: Hm. Oh, wait. You mean like our guest Tristan Layfield?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Look--Sound Man, look. We are so many episodes in. Go ahead and give me those air horns right HERE.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Yeah, shout out to J.J.Zach: [laughing] Shout out to J.J., hey, A.K.A. Sound Man. We'll talk about that more too. [laughing] Anyway, so next what we're gonna do is get into our interview with our guest, Tristan Layfield. Hope you all enjoy. And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Tristan Layfield on the show. Tristan, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Tristan: Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. It's a little rainy here today, but I'm feeling good.Zach: Hey, man, I hear you. For those of us who don't know you though, tell us a little bit about yourself.Tristan: Yeah. So like you said, my name is Tristan Layfield. I'm based in the Metro Detroit area, and I'm a career coach and resume writer that approaches career development with my clients by combining their personal branding with their career field through strategic coaching, the development of resumes, cover letters and LinkedIn profiles that really help my clients stand out. Zach: So today we're talking about landing the job of your dreams. That kind of assumes though that you know what your dreams are. What advice do you have for professionals who really don't know what they want, and how do they find that out?Tristan: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I think this is a problem that plagues a lot of us. And first, I think it's having an understanding of what you really want to do, and when I say that, I don't mean the thing that everyone has been telling you that you should do since you were young but the thing that you actually like, right? So I've noticed in talking with a lot of my clients and a lot of people I work with that we've been forced to pick what we wanted to do or wanted to be since we were young, and then most of us go to college where we're forced to pick a major well before we even know what we're interested in. So then we graduate with everybody else's dreams on us instead of focusing on our own. I always suggest the way to get out of that is to sort of start by doing what I call an interest alignment activity. So essentially, you make four different lists, and the first one is you list things that are high-skill for you and high-interest, meaning those are skills that you're good at and skills that you like to do. The second list is high-skill and low-interest. So those are skills that you're good at, but you really just don't like to do. And these are the things that cause burnout, right? And then the third list is low-skill, low-interest. These are the things you want to work on or develop. You're very interested in doing those things. And then the last one is low-skill and low-interest, and these are red flag areas. These are things that you don't enjoy and you're not good at, right? So once you make those lists, from there you're able to utilize those skills in that first and third section to build what your ideal job description would be, and you're also able to identify jobs that are heavy in the things that you listed in the second and fourth sections because you'll be able to better identify those roles that aren't a good fit for you because they are, you know, those skills that you're not interested in or those skills that you just really aren't good at and have no interest in overall. So, you know, doing that type of exercise gives you a baseline upon which you're able to assess all of the jobs you're looking at to understand that the position may be a fit for you and your expertise. So that's one of the things that I suggest to really try to narrow down the jobs that you're looking at, is to have something to compare it to, and that's how I sort of get to it with my clients.Zach: So does a--let me ask you this. Does a dream job mean a permanent job? Are dreams allowed to change?Tristan: [laughing] Yeah, that's a great question. So dream jobs can mean a permanent job for some people, but more often than not that's not always the case, because typically, as we grow and change as people, what we want, or our dream or our vision of things, typically changes over time. So to simply answer your question, "Are dreams allowed to change," yes, dreams are allowed to change, and I actually recently was working with a client who grew up knowing that she wanted to be a lawyer. And she went to law school, and she had been practicing law for over 20 years, but recently realized that she wanted to make a pivot into the non-profit sector as she had been working--doing a little bit of that work. So she found out that she loved it, and she came to me to figure out how to pivot her career, right? This woman's been in her career for well over 20 years, and now her dream has changed, and I see that very often, and I see that as a common thing, simply because, like I said earlier, we typically leave college or leave school with other people's dreams on us. Typically that's what we're trying to fulfill. We're not trying to fulfill our own dreams, right? So yeah, I definitely think they're allowed to change. Does it mean a permanent job? It can, and sometimes it runs its course. It was fun. You got the skills you needed, and now you need to move on.Zach: So, you know, I talk to people, especially, like, millennial professionals, and there's kind of, like, this divide, right? So there's a large contingency of us who will say, "Look, man. You've got to figure out where you just need to figure out where you stay and you can get locked in so you can get promoted, you can grow, you can climb the ladder," so and so forth. There's another group of people--and I probably fall more in this camp--of, like, "Look, man. You've got to kind of keep it moving," right? Like, "You need to figure out," you know, every three, four, every really 18, 24 months, you need to really be doing a hard assessment of, like, where you're at and if you need to make some transitions, either internally or externally or whatever the case may be. Where would you draw the line in-between looking for a genuine change and just being fickle or indecisive?Tristan: You know, I think it really depends on you as a person. Like you just said, there's sort of two different camps of people, the people who want to get into a company and want to be loyal to that company and move up through that company, and then there's the people who, unfortunately like many of us millennials, we sort of came out--we came out of school in a recession period, right? There weren't a lot of jobs, this that and the other, so we really had a foot--we were a foot behind everyone when it came to jobs or pay or whatever the case may be, and that has required us to sort of go on what I call a get rich quick scheme, you know? We're trying to catch up with everybody, and sometimes that requires us to move every two years to get that 10% raise in pay or whatever the case may be. So I think it is--it really depends on the person, but for me, where I think--excuse me, where I draw the line between genuine change and just being fickle and indecisive is when you're switching jobs or industries very frequently, like every one to two years, without actually sitting down and conducting a thorough analysis of why you're doing it, right? Most people who are looking for genuine change take the time to think through where they want to go and what they want to do or why this situation is not working for them, and they also provide enough time for them to get into the new area and learn and apply those things that they learn to practice. And that takes time, and sometimes that period can be difficult simply because you're learning and adjusting, and that is where people who are fickle or indecisive tend to jump ship, right? Change isn't easy, and those who are genuinely seeking it tend to understand that this is a process, and those who aren't genuinely seeking it or just being fickle and indecisive are just moving because of one little thing, you know, rubbed them the wrong way. Most of the time.Zach: Okay. So let me ask you this. I'm thinking through this as you're giving me this answer. If you had to give millennials and just working professionals of color advice when it comes to career navigation and finding what's going on for you--what would you say are some of the main challenges that you see with people that look like us when it comes to career navigation and finding that sweet spot for us?Tristan: Ooh, that is a loaded question. Right? [laughs] Well, first, I think--I think we all need to sit down and assess what we're really interested in and what we want to do. We have to make peace with the fact that what we had majored in in college may not be what we actually end up doing in life, and that is okay, and you have to realize that the majority of people are in that place. And then once you get into a place where you do like it, you need to understand sort of what the--what the pathway forward is inside of that company or inside of this industry, right? What are the next steps? How do you get there? What skills do you currently have, and what skills are you missing? And you identify those through a skills gap analysis, and sometimes you can identify, "Okay, this company is gonna allow me to get this skill set, but they don't have anything that's gonna allow me to get this other skill set to get to that ultimate position that I want to be in." So sometimes that means, you know, switching jobs, switching companies, switching industries to get that other skill set, and I think we have to be open about that and open and honest with ourselves that, you know, it's gonna be a process. It takes time. It takes dedication and, you know, no one really becomes successful without actually sitting down and putting in the work to figure out where they want to go, and often times what I find is we try to do all of that alone, and unfortunately that's not always everyone's zone of genius. So reach out and get help, whether that be me, like, a career coach and resume writer, or whether that be a friend that you see in the field doing the work, you know, talking to them, or whether that be getting informational interviews. You really have to be your biggest advocate in your own career search, and I think that's one of the biggest things I think people struggle with, is being their own advocate, and it's typically because they haven't done the work to figure out what they're actually interested in and how to actually attain it.Zach: That's a great last point too around being your own advocate. We just recently had Deborah Owens, who is the CEO of Corporate Alley Cat, and we had a whole episode around self-advocacy and strategic networking, and that was a main point too. So that was more from the context of navigating internally for the sake of your career, but your point also resonates because regardless if you're looking--irrespective of if you're looking for a change internally or you're looking for a change externally, you have to be your biggest advocate. Like, no one's gonna care more about you than you.Tristan: You have to be your own biggest advocate. No one knows your experience better than you, no one knows where your expertise lies better than you, and no one knows what you are able to actually go in and do and learn and put on the table, and so sometimes you just really need to show people that, and you really need to exemplify that, and the only way you're gonna do it is if you advocate for yourself.Zach: Absolutely. Well, look, this has been great, Tristan. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about you and your company? Tristan: Yeah, this has been amazing, and I appreciate it. People can check us out at my website, which is www.layfieldresume.com, and for those of you guys who don't know how to spell it, it's L-A-Y-F as in Frank-I-E-L-D-R-E-S-U-M-E dot com, or you can follow me on Instagram @LayfieldResume or connect with me on LinkedIn at TristanLayfield. Zach: Awesome, man. You know we'll make sure to have all of that information in our show notes so they can--our audience can check it out. Any parting words or shout outs before we let you go?Tristan: Yeah. You know, I just want to shout out my tribe. I always like to shout them out. My friends, my best friend, you know, my grandma. Everybody who's been supporting me along this journey, I just really appreciate them. I just want to thank you so much, Zach, for having me on the show. The conversations you're having are just so important for us to be discussing, and I'm just glad to be a part of it.Zach: Man, I'm honored by that. And you know what? Shout out to the word tribe. I gotta start using this word, man. [laughing]Tristan: [laughing] It takes a village, okay?Zach: It takes a village, man. Listen, man. I'm noticing--I'm noticing, man, all of my melanated working professionals who are building things are using this language, tribe. I've heard that from Deun Ivory. I've heard that from--I've just heard that from a few different guests. Tye Miles said it. Okay, anyway. Now I'm on a tangent. [laughs] Tristan, it's been a pleasure. God bless. This has been a great time. Hope to have you back, and appreciate your time, man. Tristan: I appreciate you having me on, man. Have a great one.Zach: Peace. Ade: Yo, we're back. Bomb interview as always, Zach. Excited that we were able to get Tristan on the show, and listening to that discussion reminds me that your resume is only one part of your journey in landing a dream job and that your dreams sometimes change, and that's okay too.Zach: For sure. Now, look, I have some bad news for y'all.Ade: No!Zach: No Fave Things this week, but that doesn't mean you can't check out our Fave Things on our website, right?Ade: [makes the "womp-womp" sound] I'm really nailing our sound effects today.Zach: You're doing a great job with the sound effects actually today. In fact, Sound Man, go ahead and drop, like, a small round of applause for Ade for her sound effects today. She came in very strongly on the "whaaaat?" Actually it wasn't raspy at all.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Ayy. Sir, are you coming for me?Zach: Then the womp-womp was very full, so it was good.Ade: Thank you.Zach: No, it was good. But no, really, our Favorite Things section, we've called out--the books, all of the books that we've talked about on the show, they're on that list. DeRay Mckesson's book, J Prince's book, Amy Waninger's book. They're all on this list of Favorite Things. You can go check out some of our favorite foods. I've got the Capital City Mambo Sauce on there. That's right, Capital City--this is not a paid ad. Capital City Mambo Sauce is fire. I ordered two gallons of the sauce about six months ago.Ade: [laughing] You are ridiculous.Zach: [laughing] But anyway, no Favorite Things this week. However, in a couple weeks when we do our Season 1 Wrap Up show, it's gonna essentially be all of this. It's gonna be me and Ade just talking, having a good time, and we'll talk about a variety of Favorite Things, from our favorite episodes to our favorite things on our list, and we'll actually make one last season update to our Favorite Things list, okay?Ade: Yep.Zach: Okay? So there's that, there's that. But we will have it back. Ade: Okay. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well.Zach: That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with creator Matthew Manning to discuss his entrepreneurial journey in launching Gumbo Media.Learn about Gumbo here: https://gumbomedia.com/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, every episode is someone's first episode, so for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Today, we have a special guest - Matthew Manning. Matthew is the co-founder and [inaudible] director of Gumbo Media, a trans-media storytelling platform of curated content and experiences to expand the narrative of black life through various programs, services, and content platforms. Gumbo is amplifying new nuance and more humanity into our stories, creating pipelines that encourage us to speak for ourselves. Today, Gumbo is a coalition of over 60 artists, activists, entrepreneurs, and allies committed to a collective vision of inclusive representation. Matthew, welcome to the show, man.Matthew: Hey, thank you, man. I really appreciate it.Zach: Hey, man, I appreciate you being here, man. Now, look, today we're talking about starting a startup. Talk to us a little bit about your history and how Gumbo started.Matthew: Yeah. I think there are a few ways to tell this story, but to keep it simple, Gumbo, which was formally Royal Media, really emerged from a gap. It was a gap that my co-founder and I, Courtney Phillips, felt--to be honest on a personal level, but it translated into some of the professional. Representation was lacking, even in our jobs, in our classes. You know, anywhere we went that was professional or academic, educational, just social, it felt like we were often wearing a mask, or perhaps more aptly like we were living half of ourselves. And when the deaths of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling happened in the same week a few days apart, it was a difficult week for us. They were killed, and we instantly felt this shift that we couldn't come back from. And this had been already--this had already been happening with the deaths of black [inaudible] by the police force and kind of the growth of racial discord, but this heightened those feelings. We were forever changed, and we knew that our work in some way had to reflect it. One of the things that we were saying at the time was, you know, we really feel our tide shifting. And so what we did was we ideated and thought about what is a platform that we can build that allows these stories to be better heard, that allows us to feel like that representation is present in our own spaces? You know, kind of a cross-culture, and so essentially we built a squad of creatives who felt the same way, and then we asked ourselves, you know, how we can build--how we can build a platform and use content and storytelling in unique ways to really amplify the underrepresented, if you will. So additionally, how can we ensure that the voices of everyday people aren't swallowed or silenced by, you know, silencing forces, including sometimes those that are intra-communal, those that are within our own community. And lastly, we thought about how do we ensure that this becomes an equitable platform where others can engage and tell their stories, not merely a stage where we yell out the answers? You know? We don't want to speak for people. We want to create a pipeline and a platform that allows for people to speak for themselves, and that's really where the--you know, where the secret sauce is for us, if you will. We're all exploring, learning, and growing together, and black being has bound us, and so we really wanted to create a space that honors this truth that is consciously committed to amplifying all of its nuances and all of its complexities, especially by offering up space to the creatives among us who really do their thing and allow those expressions to be seen and heard around the world.Zach: Man, that's amazing. So I'm curious, right? So in starting any startup, building any company, you're gonna take your Ls along the way, right? So I'm curious, what were some of the biggest Ls--and I'ma call those Ls lessons, folks--that you've taken in starting a startup?Matthew: Well, this is my second go around, and so a lot of them I gathered from the first and used as kind of fuel for the second, and so some of the things that I think I've really learned are--and I'll speak more to the lesson portion of it. One is strip away your ego, especially as men. I think it's ingrained that, you know, we're kind of conditioned to feel like we know and we have all the authority and the agency and our voice, and so I think it's important to strip away our ego and to understand if we're doing what we're doing for ourselves or for others. I think it's okay to be both, but others should be a part of it, at least if it's something that's socially-minded, right? And for us it's more important that we get content right or that we tell the story in the--in the right way, that we are as inclusive as we can be, than that it is that I'm right, and so I think that's something that has been to remind ourselves of, all of us, but for me that starts with me, especially as kind of a leader in the company along with a few other folks. It's important that I try to be as prideless and egoless as I can be. We can be proud of our work. We can have confidence in our voice, but those voices can't be silencing of other people. Another one is just don't be afraid to fail. In fact, I've learned to really embrace it. Not in the sense that I'm encouraging or that I'm seeking out failure, but in a way I--I suppose in a way I actually am, you know? In a sense that I want to succeed, but I also know and recognize that failing fast and failing forward is one of the fastest ways to grow, you know? It's important to seek out growth. It's important to seek out criticism even, to better understand how we can refine our own processes and things of that nature. So failing, especially as an entrepreneur, allows you to really be the best version of yourself and to implement those lessons moving forward. Beyond that, it's really about doing it for the love, you know? Passion is, I think, the only fuel that's really strong enough to push us through some of these experiences. Being an entrepreneur is hard, man. As you know, it's hard work. You and your team are grinding every day. You're building. When you look at something that you admire, like a company, a movement, a platform, whatever it might be, and you say, "Okay, I want to get there," like, that's a--that's a large question. How do you get from nothing to...Zach: Something.Matthew: Everything that you admire. To something, exactly. It's a hard thing, and so if you're not doing it for the passion, if you're not doing it for the love, then, you know, then I just don't know that you're gonna have enough fuel, enough motivation to push you through all those little moments, all those difficult questions, all those shortcomings, because those are inevitable parts of the journey, and they're actually part of what makes the journey so beautiful. So valuing every step of that journey is a lot easier the second time around, granted, but those are all valuable things to keep in mind for me. Those have been big lessons.Zach: Man, that's a great point. And it's funny because, you know, you and I connected back--initially back when, you know, Gumbo was Royal, and I was working on another--on another nonprofit, and, you know, definitely--this is also my second go around with Living Corporate, right, and trying to figure out and take the lessons learned from my past venture to this, and it's like, okay. You're absolutely right. Like, failing forward, right? And, like, to your point around being passionate and letting that passion drive you, 'cause I can tell you--I mean, I completely vibe with you on the whole "It's a lot of work," and it has to be something you're passionate about because, you know, it's gonna be long days and long nights, and if you don't really, really care, like really care about what you're doing, you know, you'll end up taking time off, you know? Your content gets delayed. You get delayed, and then out of nowhere you look up and you haven't moved anything in a month, right? And a month in an entrepreneur's--a month of no activity in an entrepreneur's world is like a year, right? Like, you've got to keep it going. So--Matthew: Then there's also the comparative sense too, right? Which is that if you don't really care, there's always somebody out there that does care and that cares more and that is putting in that work, and so if you really want to make it, if you want to, you know, make what you're doing a success, if not for yourself then for the others that you're serving, then, you know, you need to put in that--you need to put in that work to get there and be smart about it.Zach: Right. And it's funny, right? So it's--and of course there's a duality in, like, not being so comparative that you end up robbing yourself of your own journey and your own development and driving your thing, but there's still the reality of, like, "Look, there's two people, Matthew, sitting down right now talking about something similar to what you and I are talking about and grinding," right? And there's always somebody else out there trying to--and if the goal is for your platform to grow and get out there, no one's gonna cry for you, right? You have to go, and you have to go get it, and I think--because I'm a Type A in that particular way and I'm a driver that really resonates with me, but like I said earlier, I think you have to kind of balance it between not going to the far end where you end up sapping yourself of the joy of even what you got into it for, you know what I mean?Matthew: Absolutely, I agree.Zach: So let me ask you this. What was the--what was the final push? Let's talk about Gumbo. Let's talk about Gumbo. What was the final push for you to pursue and commit to growing Gumbo full-time? And what all are you working on these days?Matthew: Yeah. So the final push was--I mean, it was interesting, right? 'Cause sometimes I say and think often that, you know, life is like water. I think I heard Will Smith say this someday, and it's just kind of laws of attraction, right? Like, you put in--the energy you put in comes back to you, and life in a lot of ways is kind of like water in that way in that if you make a decision, if you decide what you want to do and you start moving, it'll get out of the way. It'll make a path for you, even if it's masked under something else, right? So when we started at the time what was Royal Media, which our language at the time was celebrating the complexity of black life, which we're still doing, but it's now more embedded in what we're doing, I actually was laid off my full-time job. I was a nonprofit consulting. The company--I won't mention the company, but they've grown. I was part of, you know, an 8-person team that had grown to about 16 people, and then they laid off about three quarters of the workforce in a matter of months, and I was on the front end of that. So it wasn't just me, but I think likely part of the energy I was putting into that job was something that was lackluster. I was doing my job, I was being professional, but I also recognized that what I really wanted to do was this work over here. What I really wanted to do was commit to telling the stories and building the pipelines that allow black folks to really celebrate and honor themselves and each other, and that was passion to me, and I think that was felt, but I also think that was felt, you know, kind of cosmically, in a cosmic sense if you will. And so that was kind of a forced push, but at that time I recognized that, "All right. Well, if I'm already in this space, if I've already kind of taken the jump, even forcibly, maybe it's wise that I use the time that I have here to commit to growing this company as much as I can," especially as one of its co-founders. That's an unfair weight to put on other people, you know? When it's not paid work yet, when it's something that's scaling. It's, like, early, early, early stages of startup life. Maybe I'm the right person to do that, and so I did, and I've kind of continued to grind on that. It hasn't been easy by any--you know, any stretch of the word, but it was simple, right? I think there's a difference between simplicity and [inaudible], and I think we often conflate the two. It's a choice. The choice is simple - do it or don't. The path can be very difficult, and the path has been difficult, but the choice was simple. I knew what I wanted to do and I committed to doing it, and, you know, (tried it?) to say after some time we built enough--Gumbo's essentially an umbrella brand, and so it has other subsidiary groups and companies, and one of them is a creative consultancy, and now I'm one of the full-time consultants in that group. So now I'm starting to pay myself through business revenue to do work that ultimately feeds my soul, feeds my passion, and is a company that I started, and that feels great. And so it's taken some time, but it's becoming sustainable work now for me. And so it was kind of a forcible thing, but it was also energy that I put out there that came back at me and said, "You know what? You're ready for this."Zach: So for those--for those who say they can't afford to pursue their startup full-time, like, what would you say? Right? And if I may ask, like, how did you make it work before you were able to pay yourself?Matthew: Right. It's difficult. I would say that there are--one person I really admire who's hustling in this space, and you guys admire them as well, is John Henry.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout out to John Henry, straight up.Matthew: Yeah, shout out to John Henry from Harlem Capital. He's doing some amazing work. One thing that he says often is, you know, you can work two things, but the moment that the new thing that you're building is losing money by not committing full-time, that's the moment to transition, and so I think if you have the capacity and you have kind of the agency to be at a job that you can enjoy, that you can continue to grind at while you're building your venture on the side, I think that is a wise choice if you have that--if the energy's there, right? If it fits, until there's a moment, and you'll know when that moment comes. Like, you'll know when you're actually being a detriment to your venture because you'll feel that your energy is the most valuable asset you have, and so there will come a shifting moment where you can make that shift and take that plunge. Beyond that though, I would say it's really about thinking creatively about your capacity and about what you're able to do, you know? Especially as creatives. A lot of us have skills that are accessible and valuable as freelancers. I mean, we've started this consultancy, and I know that this is a part of what's paying us now, but the valuable feedback that I recognized in that--you know, stepping back for a moment is that we have a pool of creatives who are looking for work, and a whole lot of business is coming to us asking for work to be done. So there is work out there ready to be accomplished. There are people who are requesting services, and so there are ways to kind of creatively find, you know, services to help pay you and support you while you're building what you're doing. Maybe it's about living a life that's a little bit more--a little bit more frugal, living a life that's a little bit more reserved, you know? But you can make it kind of on a part-time basis depending on what your expenses are and what you're doing to buy yourself that time so that you can open up as much flexibility and time as possible during the day. You know, I didn't think about how much of a privilege it was that I could have a meeting any literally time of the day, you know? If I'm working 9-to-5, a lot of people don't want to meet--a lot of business people specifically, new partners, potential investors, they don't want to meet after 5:00, they don't want to meet on the weekends, and, like, I don't know what my solution would be to that apart from taking off time from work if I had a full-time job. So I do think there is a moment when you know that a plunge is necessary to take that next step, you know? Businesses are all about plateaus. Well, they're all about growth, but every growth curve has a plateau unless you make another shift, unless you, you know, invite new kind of breath, new life, new wind into the company, and for me I recognize that in order to take this to the next level, I need to take a step, and I need to do this for myself passion-wise and joy-wise, but also for the team in terms of the work that we're doing. So it's just about being creative, and that's kind of what I did. So I did some graphic design, I did some editing, content creation, things of that nature, you know? But I'd be lying if I said it was easy. It was not easy. It was one of the harder things I've ever done, but it paid off.Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, before we let you go, do you have any shout outs or any parting words?Matthew: Yeah. I mean, I would love to shout out the squad always. Courtney, Andre, [inaudible], Amir, Asia, Mike, John, [inaudible]...Zach: Let's get some air horns for the team, for the squad.[Sound Man throws 'em in]Matthew: Yeah. I mean, we do it all collectively, you know? And I feel blessed to call these people my family. I guess what I would say is to get yourself a squad, you know? Failure, I think, is easier when it's shared. Triumphs are more fun when they're collective, but also strategy becomes easier, I think, for a startup to fill. Like, when you're filling an asset map, when you're filling all of the things that you're capable of doing, it's easy when you have a team. It's more enjoyable, and I think it's a great way to understand that, you know, my skills may not be in finance per se, but I'm great at this [inaudible] stuff. I'm great at people. I'm great at programs. This person's great at event curation. This person's great at content. So once you start building and assembling that, that's really where it's kind of the shortcut--there are no shortcuts, but it's the faster route, I guess, to finding a more equitable and well-rounded form of success for whatever your business might be, and so that would be my parting words. Those people I love, I'm fortunate to call them family, and I encourage you to get you some of your own.Zach: That's so dope, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.livingcorporate.com. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're gonna just cut all that out. So let me ask--oh, we're gonna cut this 'cause I want to make sure you plug Gumbo, like--Matthew: Oh, yeah.Zach: So I know you gave your parting words, Matthew, but man, we didn't even plug Gumbo. Like, where can people find out more about the platform? Like, plug all your stuff, man. Drop some air horns for Matthew real quick, and then let's go ahead and plug your stuff, brother. Where you at?[Sound Man complies]Matthew: [laughs] Yeah, appreciate that. You know, the best way to find us across the board is GumboMedia.com. We were lucky to get a solid domain, excited about that since we kind of rebranded and relaunched a lot of our mission, and so everything is housed there. You'll find access to all of our content, all of our social, all of that stuff at GumboMedia.com. You can find us on Gumbo Media just by searching really any platform. So yeah, we're--you know, we're out here. We're creating. We're always inviting collaboration, innovation, so reach out, you know? Get involved if you're interested. We have about 60 creatives that we're working with and a core team of about 6 or 7, but we're scaling and building and always looking to build, so hit us up.Zach: Awesome. Well, look, that does it for us, folks. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question that you would like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been talking with Matthew Manning, founder of Gumbo Media. Peace.Matthew: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with TJ and talk about his path to joining the tech industry and what people of color can do to engage it further.Learn more about tech: ROOTsTechnology.infoConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: I'm sure many of our listeners can relate to the concept of familial pressure, and as many immigrant or first-generation young adults may know, the career path for us is often limited to that of a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. I chose the path of a lawyer when I was younger. However, as I've evolved as a person so have my interests, and I'm not alone in this. Many of us have seen leaps in technology that have piqued interest in previously unexplored fields. So with that in mind, it should be of no surprise that it is one of the fastest growing industries in the world with revenue within the industry projected to reach $351 billion. It also makes it an inviting field for groups that have been underrepresented in this industry until now. The question is what does it look like to make the pivot? My name is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. [intro]Ade: So today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. As many of you may know, this would resonate with me. I've shared at least two or three times this season, but for those of you who are new, I'm actively making the career pivot into software engineering, which was not my focus in college. The journey so far has included some extremely long hours, some late nights, a ton of mistakes, a couple of wins--a couple of little wins--and many, many failures. Zach: Yeah. You know, we could've done a better job promoting your journey through Living Corporate's Instagram because your IG stories are great. Like, I'll see you posting pictures of your laptop screen with a bunch of code on it, you being in all these all-day workshops, books you're digging in to help build your technical chops. It's been inspiring to see.Ade: Thanks. Thank you. Part of what I am interested in is making tech more accessible. It's all around us, and engaging in tech means often--more than just being a coder. Being a coder is awesome, but there is so much more to tech than that.Zach: Right. I mean, to your point, because there's technology in everything that we do, there's a myriad of ways to work in tech. As an example, I'm a change management consultant in technology. I don't know how to code a thing, yet, but I'm still actively engaged in the industry because I bring other skills to the table to help implementations and things of that nature to be more successful.Ade: Right, and along that train of thought, there's space for all of us at the table--word to Solange--but it comes down to exposure and engagement. For me, I had two primary barriers. One, I didn't know what tech meant. It seemed like this vague, really nebulous space, and that was scary. I like when words mean things, and I like when I understand what those words mean. And the second big barrier for me was that I did not know how to get there. I had no road map. I had graduated from college, and there was no counselor, adviser who was like, "Take these classes and you'll get there," and "These are the steps." I had to figure it out for myself, but in figuring it out for myself I came to understand that the tech space is made up of people, some really amazing people, and therefore completely accessible. Just like you are a person, they are people, and so this is a space that you can absolutely find your way in. Zach: Right, and as you alluded to in the intro, professionals of color as well-served to seek entry into industries that are growing and positioned to be on or around the top, but it would be great if we could speak to someone more about this topic, right? Someone who--maybe they're, like, a first-generation American who changed their career, made a career pivot after college and got into tech, but not only that, they leveraged their passion and network to teach other ethnic minorities skills to get them into the tech space as well.Ade: Wait, you mean like our guest TJ Oyeniyi?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaat?Zach: Sound Man! [makes air horn noises] Come on, drop 'em in. You know it. Just put 'em right in there. Let's go. Ade: [laughs] All right. So next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, TJ. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. TJ, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for joining us.TJ: Thank you. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: Hey, no problem, man. So look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?TJ: Yeah. So my name is Tolu Oyeniyi, and most people know me as TJ, which I completely made up while watching Smart Guy one day. I was born in Nigeria, [inaudible], and I grew up in Dallas, Texas. I did my undergrad at UT Austin and grad school at Arizona State, and I am currently in the second year of my career switch as a software engineer. Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. Before you got into technology or the tech space explicitly, what were you doing? And what spurred your interest in the tech space?TJ: Ah, what was I doing? So I was working as a business analyst at a small health tech company in Austin at the time, and I was also a really big volunteer in Austin. Like, when I moved back to Austin from Dallas for work, I told myself, like, "Anything black," like, just anything dealing with underrepresented groups, I wanted to volunteer time to just help and, you know, just try to, like, give back any way possible. And I ended up, like, volunteering for a host of different events 'til I stumbled upon this one event called hackathon at Huston-Tillotson University, which is an HBCU and actually the first higher education institute in Austin during South By, and the purpose of the hackathon was to basically introduce black and brown students to tech, and I volunteered as a mentor to basically help students flesh out their ideas and, you know, ultimately try to build, like, a working product at the end of those two days for the hackathon. And what, like, really triggered the idea of, like, learning to code or just teaching people how to code was when I parked in front of this, like, brand new house across from, like, HT in east Austin, which, you know, used to be, like, an old black neighborhood in Austin. And, you know, this house was a reminder that this area was being gentrified, largely by a lot of people that are--that come into Austin because of tech, and just kind of, like, thinking, "Man," like, "All these black and brown kids," and just, like, families in these areas are being priced out of here because they don't really have access into this industry and don't really know, like, the basics, you know, to even be able to try to, like, you know, have a chance to, like, try in this industry. And that kind of frustrated me a bit, and I thought one day, "You know what? It would be real impactful if somebody was teaching these kids to code," and I just, like, jokingly mentioned to a friend--you know, to my friend at the event, like, "Bruh, you know, I think I'm gonna mess around and learn how to code so I can teach these kids to code."Zach: Wow. [laughs]TJ: The guy I was talking to was a software engineer for IBM. He was like, "Oh, really? Can you code?" I was like, "I do," but I didn't know anything about coding, bruh. I worked as a business analyst. I did, like, design software, but I don't actually build it. But yeah, I had the crazy idea of learning to code so that I could learn to teach black and brown kids to code. And I didn't really learn to, like, make a career switch. I just wanted to basically help other people, like, break into the industry. And I did that for about a year until I basically got this useless promotion at work. [laughs]Zach: Why was it useless? [laughs]TJ: It was useless, man. I was--I was working as a business analyst, making--you know, for a health tech company, making 37,500 in Austin--Zach: Wow. Wow, that's really low.TJ: Ooh. Man, you said wow and it just--it brought back all the pain from those days. [laughs] Oh, God. But yeah, and I had gotten a promotion to senior business analyst, right? You know, big time. I'm thinking big time. Everything got a promotion [inaudible]. My [inaudible] got a promotion, my responsibilities. Everything but my salary.Zach: Oh, no. But that's really what happens though.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Hold on, bruh." [laughs] "Hold on, bruh. Wait, what's going on?" 'Cause my, you know, coworkers got a raise. Why in the world did I not get one? So I started having this, like, back-and-forth with my manager like, "Hey, man. You know, I've been doing all this," you know? "My output is looking really good," et cetera, et cetera. Like, I've been here for over a year, you know? What's up? And I just got promoted. So he eventually went to bat for me with the CEO, and they got me a promotion. Like, I--man, I remember that day well. He came into the office and we had a meeting, and he was so happy to, like, announce to me that I had gotten a raise. I was like, "Okay. What's that money looking like, bruh?" He's like, "Yeah. So TJ, we're gonna take you from $37,500 to $39,998."Zach: Oh, no.TJ: I was like, "Hey, bruh. You guys really couldn't have added a couple dollars more?" [laughs] You know, to at least make it 40K, bruh. Really? I was--I was like, "Okay, wow. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it." I mean, I went back to my desk with this look like, "I'm leaving." I was, like, mid-twenties, just thinking, "Man, I'm not gonna be fighting for 40K." Like, "I'm not trying to build my life and career off of that," 'cause--you know, 'cause the question then was how long 'til I reach, like, 60K?Zach: Right. No, it's a real question. Right.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Bruh." Man...Zach: God forbid six figures, right? Like, come on. Right, yeah.TJ: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, "Jeez, I'ma be, like, 40 to 50 years old before I see any kind of money where, you know, I can just kind of be at peace?" Basically, right? 'Cause I had, like, a lot of loans coming from grad school 'cause I also did grad school out of state. But yeah, so I was very, like, frustrated by that, and by this time I had been learning to code for about a year and, like, you know, teaching it as well, but at that time I basically just knew the basics of building, like, web pages and websites. You know, just simple HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Bootstrap. You know, that type of stuff. But I went home and I was just like, "You know what, man? I'm not gonna be here fighting to try to make 40-something K." Like, my financial goals were way bigger than that, and I was like, "I have to make a change," and all of my software engineer friends are banking, and, you know, so far this stuff seems pretty straightforward. So I basically went to this event or something at IBM I think, and I saw this printout of a job posting for an engineer role at IBM, and it had all these skills and requirements. You know, just basically all this stuff on there, and I basically used that posting to update the curriculum that I was using to teach.Zach: Oh, wow. Yeah.TJ: This happened, like--man, I think this happened around June or July 2016, and I basically took that job posting and I put it, like, right next to my desk in my room, and I put a date on there. Like, December 2016 was how long I gave myself. I was like, "By December 2016 latest, I should be working as a software engineer. Period." Zach: Let's go. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.TJ: So yeah, basically that is what kind of spurred me making that career change, and it's just crazy how it all started, how I actually only started learning to code so that I could teach other people so they could break into the industry and make more money when I was over here broke. [laughs] Maybe I should make the switch.Zach: Right. You know, I'll say this. It's funny. I truly believe any time you attach your purpose with people you're going to see rewards on the other side, right? TJ: Oh, yeah.Zach: Right? So your whole angle, your whole mission was "How can I serve someone else?" And then as you were building to serve others, the fates came together to make sure that you were taken care of. So that's really exciting, and I think something else that I hope our listeners are picking up on is that you were tenacious about it, right? So the information was out there, you did your own research, you put yourself out there, you were willing to be uncomfortable, and you drove to get there. Let me ask you something about this program that you started to teach other folks, specifically youth, how to code. What is the program, and why do you believe coding is so important? Why do you do it today? Like, why do you continue to do it today?TJ: Well, so the program was called ROOTs Technology, and I was basically teaching classes on Saturdays at the time in, like, a lower income part of Austin. Yeah, and for me, at the time I thought it was, like, a really good chance to provide an opportunity for kids that were already interested in tech somehow to just learn more of the hard skills to try to, like, pick up the chance to try to break into the industry or to ultimately start, like, their own stuff on the side in terms of, like, building websites for people or just, like, building--or just building their own app ideas [inaudible] actually. So yeah, I mean, that--man, teaching is hard, bruh. Teaching is very hard. I always knew that our teachers were undervalued, underpaid and underappreciated, but that, like, knowledge took a different form when I actually, like, experienced being in the shoes of a teacher for just, like, a couple hours once a week, because there were some students in my class that they didn't know where they were going to eat unless they came to my class because Subway, like, sponsored lunches. You know? So it was like--there were so many, like, hurdles outside of the actual class that basically made it hard for students to retain information and to basically achieve the goal that they set out to achieve. So yeah, that was tough, and I ultimately had to, like, pull back on the program. So now I have the curriculum online, and it is open to any and everybody to use, and I just make myself available as a mentor to help people to get unstuck as they are working through the curriculum, you know? Because everything is online and self-paced, so.Zach: So let's make sure that we'll--we'll make sure to put those resources in the show notes because I think that's amazing. I think--you know, certain people--for me as an example, right, I'm a good Googler. Like, I don't have an issue looking something up and figuring out or, you know, reaching out and talking to people, but that isn't always--that's not everyone's strong suit. Having a place where all of that information is consolidated and available I think is a big deal, and there's plenty of people out there that really see tech as, like, this big, just amorphous thing that you can't really wrap your arms around or that it's only for super, super quantitative math geniuses and things of that nature. So let me ask you this. If you could give people, especially minorities, who don't have a tech background but want to get into the space three tips, what would they be?TJ: One, decide what you want to do, and if you don't already know what you want to do in this industry or you just don't know anything about tech, just start looking for local tech meet-ups in your area and start attending and just--just ask questions. Like, you will always find people that are willing to just, like, answer questions and at least help you and point you in the right direction. And two, like, find people that want--once you figure out what you want to do, find people in this industry that are where you want to be and approach them to basically help you come up with a plan to get there. And then three, you have to really, like, sacrifice and grind. Like, set a timeline and let other people know to basically help to keep you accountable to your goals and get to work, you know? Like, this--this, like, took me over a year and a half of just, like, teaching myself and just grinding, and my last, like, five months, I actually--like, once I decided that I wanted to make the switch into being an engineer, I think I spent about, like, seven months of just, like, really sacrificing and grinding. No more happy hours. No more brunch. Dollar mimosas, and God knows I love, like, dollar mimosas. Like, I--Zach: Dollar mimosas, yeah. [laughs]TJ: You know? I basically I had to give, like, so much up. Like, I was working full-time and coming home, and basically from 6:00 P.M. to, like, 1:00 or 2:00 A.M. I was just studying. Seven days a week. Just grinding and sacrificing. The only people that saw me on a regular basis were my coworkers and my sister 'cause she lives with me, but that was it, you know? I basically went into a hole to, you know, try to put in the work to achieve my goals, and I basically showed up with a brand new software engineering job a few months later.Zach: Well, see--that's just so inspirational, right? Because, again, I think we talk a lot about things we say that we want to do, but the reality is it takes work. It takes sacrifice. Anything that you want to really build that's gonna be sustainable, not a fad or not something passing in any way, it takes time, and it takes actual work. And it's funny because, you know, you didn't pull those hours out of nowhere. You had to give up some comfort so that you could eventually get where you wanted to go. So that's--that's just amazing. I'm really encouraged by this story. This has been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, TJ, do you have any shout outs?TJ: Man, I have a lot of shout outs.Zach: Go ahead. Get it going.TJ: [laughs] So yeah, first shout outs will be to Dara Oke and Sammy [inaudible]. They were my engineering friends at the time that basically helped point me in the right direction when I was coming up with this self-paced curriculum to, you know, teach people, and then after that, shout out to Yusuf [inaudible] and the African-American Youth Harvest Foundation, which is where the classes for ROOTs Technology were at, and Yusuf was another engineer at the time that basically started learning to code back then like I did and wanted to make the switch over, and he would actually volunteer with me to help teach the class as well. And yeah, again, he achieved it as well. He has been working as a software engineer for the past two years. And also shout out to [inaudible] for just being, like, a really big support--just a really good friend and mentor in this, like, tech journey. Like, E is an engineer. He's worked at IBM on the Watson project, DO doing, like, [inaudible] stuff, and now he's over at GitHub, and he always does a very good job of just, you know, trying to help lift as he's climbing, and I was, you know, one of those people that he, like, really helped along the way in my own journey. And also a big shout out to my fiance Queen and my sister [inaudible], who gave me a place to live while I was--while I didn't have my own place for a few months. And just a really big shout out to all of my family and friends that were there to support me and to, like, push me on throughout this whole journey.Zach: Man, that's beautiful, man, and again, we thank you for your time. We love your story. We definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope to have you back, man.TJ: Awesome. Awesome, sir. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: All right, man. Peace.Ade: And we're back. I can tell that you and TJ had a lot of fun on that one, and to be frank, I was incredibly energized by his story. It was really motivating to hear because he's out of the old, so to speak. I'm definitely still in "stay low and build" mode, but hearing his story is encouraging, and it's motivating, and it lets me know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Zach: Yeah. I think his story comes down to the power of execution. He made up his mind to do something, and he didn't use any excuse. He researched, he studied, he prepared, and then he went for it, and he didn't take years and years. It's really--frankly, it's been a super short journey for him, and I'm happy for him because I know he's just getting started.Ade: For sure. We'll definitely need to make sure to list all of those resources and contacts in the show notes because, like you said, there are so many of us out here who are interested in a genuine approach to the industry but aren't necessarily sure where to start. We'll have a starting line for you.Zach: Absolutely. Well, with that being said, we're gonna be right back with our Favorite Things. Can't wait to share.Ade: Awesome.Zach: And we're back with our Favorite Things. So folk who know me know that I am a blerd, or a black nerd. Two amazing games dropped this month. One was 2K19. Yes, like many younger black men, I loves my 2K, my NBA 2K. For those who are not in the know, NBA 2K is a basketball simulation game. This isn't even an ad. I really enjoy 2K, especially My Career, where you take a player--you make one, you create one, you take him through the journey of being a rookie to a Hall of Famer. And Spider-Man dropped. Both for PS4, so I'm really--I'm enjoying myself.Ade: 2K, huh? Okay. So what's your style? Are you a shot-creating slasher? A playmaker? What's up?Zach: I'm actually a slashing, shot-creating small forward. I'm 6'10" on there, and so if you want to catch a body, you want to be put on a poster, you find me at the park. My gamertag is RevNunn, R-E-V-N-U-N-N. I'll see you out there.Ade: RevNunn gonna put you on a poster. All right. This week my favorite thing is a book called Weapons of Math Destruction. Yes, I did say math. It's a book that came out in, I believe, 2016, and it just examines the societal impact of algorithms and big data. We tend to think of--kind of following in the conversation we were having about tech spaces, but we tend to think of data and tech and science, the STEM space, as a relatively bias-free zone because it's presented to us that way. However, this book just talks about those spaces can actually--and that work, the creation of algorithms, actually can be used to reinforce pre-existing inequality and systemic inequality. I love it. It's by a mathematician known as Cathy O'Neil, and she talks about, you know, the reinforcement of discrimination using systems that we would otherwise consider or would otherwise hope are unbiased. So it's been a fun read. Okay, maybe not fun. Fun is definitely not the term I'm looking for, but it's been a very illuminating, insightful read, and I encourage everyone to take a look at it. Oh, that reminds me. Before we go, we are actually going to be opening up our Favorite Things to you, our listeners. So if you have a favorite thing, please get at us. DM us through IG or hit us up at our email address, which we'll list later on at the end of this show. You can also contact us through the website or Twitter, and we'll make sure to shout you out.Zach: Dope. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. You know what? Also, we actually bought a bunch of other domains. That's right. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns right here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's right. We bought livingcorporate.co., livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org. We are everywhere except livingcorporate.com. So if you type in Living Corporate you will find us, okay? If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on the show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with community leaders and social impact entrepreneurs Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport to learn about their work to achieve social justice, racial partnership and improve social and emotional intelligence.Learn about Project Curate TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Now listen, for Living Corporate these are the types of folks that we really enjoy talking to - social impact entrepreneurs, educators, folks actively involved in the corporate space in a diversity and inclusion perspective and ethnically diverse leaders within the corporate space, and today we have two special guests, Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport. Secunda and Jessica are activists, writers, public speakers, and social impact entrepreneurs dedicated to racial justice. Working with Project Curate, they seek to build social and intellectual communities that can address civic challenges and work towards intersectional justice. Welcome to the show, y'all. How are you doing?Secunda: We're good. Thank you for having us so much, Zach.Jessica: Glad to be here.Zach: Hey, no problem. Now look, for those of us who don't know y'all, can y'all tell us a little bit about yourself?Secunda: Well, yeah. My name is Secunda Joseph. I am from H-Town by the way of South Louisiana, [inaudible], and yeah, I am--I have been working in spaces that relate to, like, media, digital media, organizing and activism on the half of black life, and that's what I do. I'm a servant and a lover of my people, to sum it up.Jessica: And I'm Jessica. I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas, but I've been in Houston for about eight years now and have really fell in love with the city. I am a full-time student, but in addition to that I also do work with an organization called Project Curate but also [inaudible], which does lots of work in the community around critical dialogue and creativity in the arts to push folks towards thinking about ideas of racial justice and building more transformative communities. Zach: That's amazing. So today we're gonna be talking about a particular program that will be coming really soon. So can you talk to us a little bit about the program, the title of it, what inspired it, all of that?Jessica: Sure. Secunda and I both work with an organization called Project Curate that has been hosting conversations here in the city around race, religion, and social justice. This semester we're gonna be starting a curriculum that we're offering to the community. We're asking folks to come out and join us over the course of several months--we'll meet once a month on Saturdays--to work through a book called Emergent Strategy. This book has really--a lot of us have read it, those folks who are really interested in building community and doing justice work, but this book is a little different than the usual kind of social justice how-to or the activist how-to. It's not a manual for how to do that. It actually asks folks to sort of stop and pause and ask themselves how they can shift their own practices, their own personal interactions, their own behaviors, do small-scale things in order to have big impacts, in order to shift the world. So that's what we're gonna be working through. The course is called Frequencies because what we're trying to do is to get people to think about how to create a kind of synergy, a relationship between other people, to think about their engagements with other people, to think about their relationships with themselves, and to think how those small-scale things, those small-scale relationships, can get us to think about how to build more transformative communities with one another. So we're asking folks to come out and join us once a month, and we can say a little bit more as we go throughout the show and share a little bit about how people can find more information, but that's kind of the gist of it, of what we're up to.Zach: That's really cool. Now who do you believe that this class is catered for? Who do you believe this class will help?Secunda: This class would help, you know, show [inaudible] towards folks who are in the corporate world, and, you know, when I think about the black and brown folks that walk into this space and how they--you know, sometimes you have to--you know, you come (on?) with a new face, put the things that you may be--the solutions, the systems, the understandings that you have, that you were taught sort of at home aside as you walk into this space, but I think this opportunity helps you to, like, think about ways that you can bring in creative solutions and build a new way to do things much better. I think that's [inaudible] for yourself and any organization. It's also for folks who are activists or organizers who are frankly wore out, you know? And they're tired of like, "Let me get 200 people in here, and maybe 50 of them will stand up, and we need 1,000 people at this rally," who are thinking very linear to get things accomplished, and a lot of times that really snatches the [inaudible] out of us. One of the things that I say, I tell people often, is that one of the things that this book does is it gives you a lot of examples of what--kind of what happens in nature. It talks about fractals and these small patterns that we consistently that really moves our world. So just, you know, it speaks to many people who really want to move (with?) the world and just need more intention on how to do that in a practical and a [inaudible] way.Zach: That's beautiful. And, you know, when you were talking about--as you both were talking about Frequencies and really the course itself and how it really focuses on being intentional with the little things, quote unquote, that you do and the people that you engage with, it kind of reminds me of a topic that we've discussed on the show around just being socially and emotionally intelligent, right? So being cognizant of who you are, being cognizant of your own emotions as well as how you're coming off and reading the social cues of others and just being intentional and purposeful with your time. So I believe there's a lot of relevance and intersection from that perspective as well. I'm curious now, who else would you say--when you kind of talked about Frequencies, you talked about Project Curate--who would you say that inspires this work for you all? Who would you say really, really is someone that you would point to and say, "Wow, this is why we do what we're doing."Jessica: You know, someone for me that came to mind is someone who was talked about a lot in this book that we're working through, and that's Octavia Butler, who was actually a writer, a novelist, and was a specialist in what people now know of as science fiction writing, believe it or not. So what I think what's really dope about Octavia Butler is what she asks us to do is imagine a world beyond the one that we see right now, and that that world that we want is actually possible. We can create that, that the structures that are in place now, that are unjust structures, those can be rethought, but it's--one way to go about that is to, you know, work for kind of large-scale change and to do the activist work and to hold up the signs, but another way to do it is to think about how to build community with one another, how to be in relationship with one another. And so when I think about her work and I think about her writing and I think about her thinking, she laid out a blueprint for us to think about how to do this in a way that is more holistic, more just to ourselves, because I think what we were recognizing is that a lot of folks who are in this fight for justice or a lot of folks who are trying to make a change on their jobs, whether that's in the corporate world or elsewhere, feel like they have to take on a lot and do a lot, and that's true. I mean, they do have to do that, but what would it mean for us to scale it back and think about these just--starting with your relationships, starting with the relationship with yourself, right, and making sure that you are doing justice to yourself. Those kind of questions will come into play, and when you say who inspires us, I think definitely Octavia Butler's writing is definitely a part of that.Secunda: And I also think of--and one of our team members brought this up about those folks who are excited about, you know, shifting our world or shifting our systems, and to--I think about folks who would have an opportunity to start off with a clean slate, right? So there are those of us who have been practicing in a way, you know, corporate tells you. You know, the way you learn in school, the way you learn to organize or do something just in a corporate structure, and then there are those who are just getting their feet wet, and they come in with a clean slate, and they have an opportunity to create something from a more holistic perspective, right? Instead of watching all this--you know, somebody like myself, there's a lot of things I had to unlearn, right, and put into practice, but a person who's new to this, our young people, our younger students who this is their first opportunity to do something, to ignite other people, right? To move themselves and the people around them and to really have the tools to do that in a way that is beneficial for themselves and the people around them. Like, it is--you know, it's like you look at a--in our organizing work, like, we move in a non-linear structure. Like, we are a (leadership-full?) group, and, you know, as we've done this coursework and as we've had these different conversations, we encourage that and we've, you know, taught that in a sense. I hate using the word teach, but we've created space for that. But this takes what we've done--it's like looking at a cell and then breaking it down to an atom. This takes what we've done and just breaks it down in a very easy to sort of easy to ingest--not easy to ingest. [laughs] Way. Yeah, you want to?Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's true. A lot of the conversation around, you know, how to--how to bring change, again, is we think--we think big, and we think large-scale, and we think how do we organize? This is kind of what (Sec?) said earlier. You know, "We need 100 people to come up in this space," or, you know, "If we want to make a change in the corporate world, we need, you know, 50 employees to help us to sign whatever petition," or whatever, but what this asks us to do is to kind of break that down on a smaller scale and say, "How do we engage--" Let's just start with how we engage with one another. How do we shift--how do we shift the culture of a place, right? How do we shift--yeah, how do we shift our engagements? How do we shift our thinking? It may not mean us meeting, you know, every Saturday to do some kind of direct action, but it can mean me agreeing with myself to say, "When I walk into this space, there's a particular type of energy that I want to bring into this space," or "When I engage with Secunda, I'm gonna make sure that--" You know, if I know that I have a very strong personality, I'm gonna step back and make sure that the way--if I want, you know, to have equality and equity in the world, well, maybe I need to figure out how to have equality and equity in my relationship with Secunda first, right? So that means I need to step back a little bit or think about the ways that I may take up all the air in the space in a room, and then think about how that can--those small-scale things can lead to a sort of cultural shift in how we engage with one another.Zach: This has been an incredible discussion, and I want to make sure, before we get too much further, that folks can know where they can learn more about the program. So would you mind sharing the information for that?Jessica: Yeah. They can go to Project Curate.org. That's our website, and they can go--there's a little Events link there that they can go and visit, and that has a list of our--of the curriculums that we're offering this semester. They will find Frequencies there, and they can register there on the site. Our kickoff is going to be Friday night, September 7th, and that's just gonna be a gathering for folks who have registered and who want to participate with us. We'll have a, you know, small kind of eat food, you know, kind of greet thing happening [inaudible], then kind of introduce everybody, and then our very first session, when we begin to get into the work, will be Saturday, September 22nd, and we'll have more information on the website about locations and that kind of thing.Zach: This is really cool, and so what I want to make sure is we'll have the information, Project Curate.org, that website, in our show notes so folks can direct from there, and then we'll make sure to encourage our folks to check it out, especially if they're in Houston, right? If they're in Houston to check it out and to engage with it. So it's really exciting. So before we go, any shout outs or parting words?Secunda: Parting words? Just thank you for having us on, and I just want to encourage people to just begin doing the move of just doing a little research on [inaudible] and some of the conversations that are available on [inaudible], and I think of where, like, you'll be really intrigued, if you're not able to attend the class, just to start the conversations at home with yourself.Jessica: Yeah, and I'll add--you know, what's a beautiful thing about this is all of the material that we're using is really written and produced by black women, and so it's a really beautiful thing to think about how this presents an opportunity for us to really, I don't know, mind the beauty that's there of our culture and what people are producing and the new [inaudible] that people are putting out, and so shout outs to all the black women who are doing innovative work out there, and we hope that this space will really encourage folks to sink deeper into the work that's there.Zach: Absolutely. I'm so excited and thankful that you guys were here, so thank you, thank you both. Excuse me, I said you guys. I should be more inclusive with my language. I'm so thankful that you both were able to join us, and I think when you talk about--when you talk about the community and the relationship aspect, that's so relevant for Corporate America because so often when we talk about inclusion and diversity or we talk about creating some type of change we talk about it at this high level, almost like top-down approach, where as really if it's a people-driven thing, then the focus should be the people, and it's not really ever going to--you're not really gonna see any major transformation organizationally, socially, politically, whatever domain you're operating in, until you're able to actually operate and start at a people--person-to-person perspective, and I think this course, and really Project Curate as a non-profit social impact organization, really reinforces that, and so I just want to thank you both again. And that does it for us on the show, so thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Secunda Joseph and Jessica Davenport, members of Project Curate. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with Rod, 1/2 of The Black Guy Who Tips to talk about his experiences as a black man in Corporate America and hear his advice for engaging your own creative outlets.Length: 19:31Host: ZachThe Black Guy Who Tipshttp://www.theblackguywhotips.com/Rodhttps://twitter.com/rodimusprimeKarenhttps://twitter.com/rodimusprimeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, look, yes, we've talked about B-Sides before, but remember, every episode is somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random, looser shows in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--yes, even more lit--than our regularly scheduled shows. If you wanna know what I mean by more lit, Sound Man gon' drop some air horns right here. Sound Man, give 'em to me. [Sound Man obliges]Zach: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Now, listen, sometimes, you know, we have discussions as a follow-up to the regular full-time shows just with the hosts. Sometimes it's one host having an extended monologue, and sometimes we actually have a special guest. Yes, that's right, a special guest, and today is no different. We actually have Rod, A.K.A. half of the show from The Black Guy Who Tips.Rod: Hey, thanks for having me, man.Zach: Hey, man, thank you. Man, thank you for being here. Now, look--look, look, look. Rod is an entrepreneur, a comedian, writer, and most prominently half of the firepower behind The Black Guy Who Tips. Rod, along with his lovely wife Karen Morrow, A.K.A. SayDatAgain on social media, record out of North Carolina where they talk about everything you want to hear about. With that being said, welcome to the show, Rod. How you doin', man?Rod: Hey, I'm happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you reaching out.Zach: Man, I appreciate you responding, bro. And it's funny, you talk about Twitter fame--you talk about celebrity and, like, being famous, right? And I was about to make, like, a "you famous" joke, but I recognize that some people have various levels of sensitivity about that, so. [laughs] For those of us who don't know you, man, explain the title of The Black Guy Who Tips.Rod: The Black Guy Who Tips is a comedy podcast. The title basically started from--there's so much anti-blackness in the service industry towards black, like, people as patrons, and my wife and I, we both co-host this podcast. My wife and I, we both used to be waiters as well. During all this time as waiters and stuff, you know, we faced--we were on the other side. We got to see what waiters and companies think of black patrons, and it's not cool, you know? And a lot of 'em have racist attitudes, and then they go "Black people don't tip," you know? They treat us like trash and they expect us to not just tip but basically to overtip to compensate for the fact that we're black. Now, the original title is from a blog I used to write. It was a comedy blog, and I called myself The Black Guy Who Tips because I was like, "I'm sick of people saying black people don't tip." So if you're saying that, you know at least one black person who tips if you read my blog. It's me, and I know I'm not--I know I'm not alone. I'm not--you know, I'm not the only one.Zach: Absolutely not, man. Listen, I also tip, okay? And I always at least tip 15%, okay? Now--Rod: Yeah. I overtip, and I wish I could get that out of my system because--I overtip mostly because I used to be a server, but part of it is the black thing that hangs over all black people where we feel like we're always representing everyone, and it's not fair that--you know, 'cause I've done--I've been in situations where I'm like, "Man, this guy was terrible. What a horrible waiter. I'm only gonna give him 20% because I am sick--" You know? Like, I should just not tip this dude. Like, he was terrible, but for some reason--I hope I get over that hang-up one day, man.Zach: It's funny, right, because I actually have a friend, and he worked at a Pappadeaux's out here in Houston, and so--and he's a white brother. So what he would do is--he said when people would come in and they'd be black people, they wouldn't say, "Oh, we got black people over there," they would use code language. Rod, you wanna know what the code language they used to say, "Oh, we got some black folks over here?"Rod: I hope it wasn't Canadians.Zach: It was Canadians, dawg.Rod: Aw! See? I've been on the other side. I've dealt with it. It's the worst. Zach: [laughs] Yes, man. They be like, "Yeah, we got some Canadians over there." I'm curious, before you started The Black Guy Who Tips Live and before you started doing that full-time, did you have any moments, while you working in Corporate America, that you were like, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before," and I ask because we're coming off a full episode with Michael Williams, who's a financial banking executive, and he was talking about his stories and his experiences in Corporate America, and I'm just curious, man, do you have any similar stories about like, "Wow, it's clear that you have just never worked with a black man before."Rod: Uh, yeah. I have a few. You know, I worked in Corporate America for--oh, man, since I was 16 I think. I was doing internships and also during the summer working as a waiter and stuff. So yeah, I have plenty of stories. One quick one, I had a manager later in my career, like, one of the last managers I ever had. I had a manager who was a white dude from, like, New Jersey. Pretty--you know, a guy that you would see generally as a pretty progressive white man for an older white man. Like, I never felt he was overtly racist, but he was very, like, liberal racist.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Rod: And so he would do this thing where we'd get in a meeting and--I don't know if you've ever been in a meeting like this, but some white dudes, like, really dramatize their anger. Like, anger is their thing at work.Zach: Yeah.Rod: You know, he wasn't angry towards anyone in the room. He was never rude or mean to anyone. I never saw him snap, but he would do stuff like be angry at a situation. So he'd be like, "Oh, and this," you know, "F-word." Not the slur, but, like, you know.Zach: Right, right, right.Rod: "This mother F-word would do this, and this son of a B would do that," and I'm like, "Okay." So he's angry, right, and he's frustrated, and he has that room to do that, and so we'd be at a meeting and then, like, if I were to be like, "Well, you know, I was working with this vendor, and they did this, and I just don't understand why they would do that because essentially it's gonna cost them extra money, and I'm trying to convince them to do blank, and it'll help everyone out." He would, like, put his hand on my shoulder like, "Calm down, Rod. It's okay." You know? "Don't be too upset." I'm like, "I'm not upset." He's like, "Yeah. It's okay, big fella." I'm like, "What is happening right now?" Like, I'm gonna get upset, and it took a few of those meetings before I realized, "Oh, he's kind of, like, afraid of me in a way that's not--" Like, it makes me uncomfortable because it puts--he's my manager, but he's putting me in a position where I'm, like, an aggressor and I'm not, yet he walks around all day spouting off, you know, cuss words and all this stuff and it's okay. So yeah, I was like, "This guy just doesn't know black people, I guess."Zach: Man--so look, let's trade a couple stories until we run out. Let's see how awkward we can get with some of these stories about just working while black, okay? So here I--so I heard yours, so I'ma match yours with this one. So this was before I got into consulting, right? And I was working--I was working in the energy space. It was my birthday. So my boss wasn't there for my birthday, and to your point, she was also a very liberal white woman. She would--I think by all other accounts you would consider her progressive, right? So I walk into my cubicle, and I see, like, this shadow. Like, I see, like, a shadow, like, in my cubicle. I'm like, "Who is sitting at my desk?" Now, Rod, I then walk into my cubicle, and I see this big, inflated, light-skinned monkey in my chair.Rod: No way.Zach: Yes way. So then I see the monkey, and I'm like, "What is this?" So then I turn the monkey around, and it has a little--like, a little necklace thing on it, like a lanyard, and it says "Happy birthday, Zach."Rod: Wow. Dude, that's--that's insane.Zach: So I look at it, and I'm like, "What?" So then I take it and--so, you know, again, my boss isn't there, so first--of course I take a picture. I gotta take a picture. I send it to my parents, and then I take it and I put the monkey at her desk 'cause she's not there. So then the next day, right, she goes, "Hey, did you see my monkey?" "Did you see the monkey yet? Did you see your birthday present?" And I said, "I did. Yeah, that was really disappointing and inappropriate," right? So, not that it would be a surprise to you at all, I then got turned into I have the attitude problem, I'm overly sensitive--Rod: Mm-hmm.Zach: Right? She starts crying, tearing up. I'm like, "What is going on? You put a monkey at my desk, right?" And it's just like, "Wow." Like, "You clearly never considered," you know? And, you know, she came out later and was like, "You know, I like monkeys." Like, "Monkey is, like, my favorite animal," blah blah blah blah, and I'm like, "Okay." I mean, that's fine for you personally, right? But for you to then give that to somebody, and such a big one too, right? It wasn't even like a small gesture, dawg. It was huge. It was--so I'm 6'2", so it wasn't as big as me, but it was a big monkey, man. Like, it was big enough to when I walked around the corner I thought--I thought someone was sitting at my desk. It was crazy, man. So let me ask you something, 'cause, you know, I know you--what would you have done in that situation? I just want to--like, off the cuff, what would've been your reaction?Rod: Well, see, here's the thing. I'm not very reactionary, and I'm probably, believe it or not, one of the more patient people most people know. I probably would've not been too moved to anger or offense or shock, but I would've taken that monkey out of my cubicle for sure, put it somewhere, like, in a car or something, like, somewhere away from me, and then I would've pulled her to the side and been like, "Listen, I don't know how this goes with you and other black people, but don't do that again towards me, and you probably should never do that again with another black person because my assumption is you're not aware but this can be perceived as racist, and this is why," you know? And, you know, my general responses that I've had from checking white people on racism has not been one of too much animosity, but mostly because I'm just not--I'm very rarely triggered to anger, so for the most part I haven't had to deal with a fragile white person breaking down crying and stuff, but yeah, I mean, you did the right--there's nothing you did wrong, and there's nothing--you know, like I said, I can only hope that that would be the response is that they'd be like, "My bad," you know what I mean? 'Cause--I mean, what else do I want at that point? If I don't want you fired, then I just want a "My fault, playa. Won't do it again," and then I'm cool. It'll become a funny story that I remember and tell people or whatever, but yeah, I don't--you know, I probably would handle it pretty even-keel, probably wouldn't have went to HR even though I would've had every right to. I'm just not that kind of person really.Zach: You transitioned from, you know, working for somebody else to really building--so I don't want to be hyperbolic and say an empire, right? Or a dynasty and be corny, but you've built something for yourself. Like, you and your wife of course, with the help of your wife, and shout out to the wives out there. I mean, my wife, she's not on my podcast, but she definitely supports me and helps me and holds me down as I'm doing all of this stuff, but, you know, what advice would you give to people who are actively in Corporate America, black and brown folks who are trying to navigate, especially if they're trying to navigate and they're thinking about ways to find another avenue outside of working a 9-to-5.Rod: Yeah, okay. Man, there's so much I can say. I'll start with--first, in my Corporate America stint where I got laid off twice in the span of the, like, four years I was doing the podcast while working--and maybe it was 5, but either way--the podcast I always treated like I would treat if I had a second job. Like, I made sure to make the time and the preparation, and I treated it in many ways like a full-time job before it was a full-time job, so by that I mean it was not a hobby. Now, there's nothing wrong with a podcast as a hobby. There's nothing wrong with anything as a hobby. We need--especially as black people, we need outlets outside of corporate structures, specifically corporate structures that are encapsulated, white spaces. So, you know, you always have these voices inside that might not get out, and you need to feed that voice 'cause it'll die if you let it. Zach: Right.Rod: So for me I'll say look, work on your craft as if you're already doing it full-time to a certain extent. Be professional, you know? Think about your sound quality. Think about the time commitment. Consistency is key. These are all boring things I'm telling you, but the boring things are what--the boring things is basically Mr. Miyagi making you wash his car and sand his bench, but then when you become--when you make that transition into trying to monetize it, you already know, you know, wax on wax off, and that's what keeps it working. That's what makes it easy, the basics. So yeah, learn your craft, learn your tools, right? You learn your microphones that you use, how to get the best sound out of it. Your internet setup, how to get your best communication when you want to have guests. You're gonna have to learn, you know, your equipment and internet hosting things, you know? Like, what are the differences on sites? All that stuff. Everything is so Google-able at this point. YouTube has so many tutorials. I use Audacity to record. It's a basic, free software. I still use it to this day.Zach: Same here, yeah. For sure.Rod: Right, and I know people that would pay, like, hundreds and thousands of dollars for rigs, and you're like--then they hit me up, "How'd you get that sound?" I'm like, "Oh, Audacity," and they hit up--you know? So yeah, there's plenty of ways, plenty of paths, and then the most thing that I would want you to remember from coming from a Corporate America background where they really do a job on our brains of trying to smush us all into these cubicles and these boxes and this linear thinking of "All of us should think the same way. Don't think outside of the box. Don't be too creative," right? When you're in your personal space and you're creating something from scratch for yourself, make it for you. Make it as personal as you would like. I made the podcast I would love to have heard when I was working. I made the podcast that was gonna be with me five days a week and talk about topics that were random but could be comedic, could be serious. I made the podcast that was gonna, like, make me not feel like a crazy person in a corporate structure where you go to work and some of your people that you work with voted for Trump. Some of the people you work with, you know, you may be the only black person they know, you know? But I wanted to make a show for black and brown people all over the globe where they didn't feel alone for a couple hours a day or whatever, so they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, so you saw that too, and that was crazy to you as well. Yeah, okay, cool. You know, this is like sitting at the lunch table again," and many podcasts have done that for me as well as a listener, working and working for myself. Those are, like, the basic things I would say.Zach: Man, that's dope, Rod. I appreciate it, man. I'm curious, man, before we wrap up--first of all, I have a random, unrelated question. Do you see yourself creating another video on social media that has as much vitriol as that Kit Kat video?Rod: [laughs] I don't think I could do that if I tried. I don't even know--I have no idea what goes viral. There's another video of me eating (Talenti?) where I smoked it like a heroin spoon.Zach: Yeah, I saw that. [laughs]Rod: Yeah, and now--and for some reason that never one goes truly viral, but I'm like, "That's the most creative one I ever did."Zach: That one was wonderful.Rod: Yeah. The Kit Kat one was just me being--I just thought it would be funny, and I have several other videos of--I had one where I tried to--I can't remember. Oh, I tried to--[laughs] I'm sorry. I tried to snort candy corn.Zach: [laughs]Rod: [laughs] It was so ridiculous, but that one didn't get picked up. So hey, man, I have no idea what will make people mad. I'm not trying to make 'em mad, but boy, did that one make 'em mad. Zach: So beyond the implication of, like, you, like, actually, like, harming yourself, it'd be really funny if you melted down a Hershey's bar and, like, injected it between your toes.Rod: Right. [laughs] You should've heard the idea board that I've just thrown at my wife over the, like--"You know what I should do? I should take a Kit Kat, and I'ma put it in some soup or something," and she's just like, "Don't do that." I'm like, "You right. You right."Zach: [laughs] Man, I shared that video with my wife. I shared that video of the Kit Kat with my wife. She was like, "Oh, I'm just so offended." Dawg, she was so mad. [laughs]Rod: People were watching it like I, like, hurt a small child or something like that. They're like *gasps* "Why would you do that?" I'm like, "It's just a candy bar. You can eat it how you want."Zach: You also dunked on 'em at the end when you said, "Are you mad?" [laughs]Rod: [laughs] And they were mad. Who knew? They were really mad, man. I thought we'd all have a laugh, but we did not.Zach: Any shout outs? Any at all. Any shout outs you have at all.Rod: I mean--well, you know, obviously my wife Karen. Could not do The Black Guy Who Tips without her.Zach: Yes, shout out to Karen. Air horns for Karen, yes.Rod: Ironically, like, honestly, the show would not be named The Black Guy Who Tips, but she did not--she was not sure she would make a good co-host, which anybody that has listened to our show is like, "What?"Zach: That's crazy, straight up.Rod: Like, I don't feel--like, I don't even take it as offense anymore. It's like, "I know nobody comes for me. They're coming for Karen, and then I'm just out there throwing alley-oops and letting her dunk over people." So yeah, it's that, but it would be probably The Rod & Karen Show, which may not be nearly as--would have gotten it the same traction, so maybe it helped out even though she wasn't trying to. Yeah, that would be the--obviously all the podcasts I listen to and all the podcast friends and family that we've established over the years, and black podcasters, podcasters of color in general, you know? We out here. Our voices are important. Don't give up, man. Just keep making the show for you. Don't look at other people's race. Run your race, and, you know, try to be better every time you take the mic. That's the best, realest advice I can give.Zach: Man, Rod, we appreciate it. That does it for us here on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. We also have a Patreon, so if you can spare a dollar a month--yes, just a dollar--to support content that explores the perspectives and experiences of black and brown people in Corporate America, show us some love. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. My name is Zach. You've been listening to Rod, A.K.A. Rodimus Prime, A.K.A. half of the firepower behind The Black Guy Who Tips. Go ahead, shout 'em out one last time, Rod.Rod: TheBlackGuyWhoTips.com. Find us, okay? You can go on Twitter at TBGWT. You can follow me on Twitter at RodimusPrime, and drop the air horns right now.[Sound Man drops 'em]Zach: There it is. [laughs] Peace. Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Zach and Ade discuss the role of education and building wealth with Accenture senior strategy consultant, Richard Odior.Length: 00:33:33Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTAde: “Research and public policy have traditionally focused on education and income as drivers of upward mobility. There is compelling evidence, however, that education alone does little to explain the source of different levels of economic well-being, especially across race. Observing an association between higher levels of educational attainment and higher levels of net wealth and concluding that education produces wealth is tantamount to observing an association between the presence of umbrellas during rainfalls and concluding that umbrellas cause the rain. It's more likely that the relative wealth of different races explains the educational attainment differences across race groups.” This excerpt is from “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans” a joint report between The New School, Duke Center for Social Equality, and Insight, a non-profit research entity. What does this mean for people of color trying to secure the bag? What role, if any, does education play in affecting our income? And if education alone won’t secure the bag, what will? Hi, my name is Ade. And this is Living Corporate.Ade: So today, we’re talking about greenery. Cheese. To be more specific, we're talking about paper, stacks, racks, looseleaf, guap, benjamins, all that. Zach: So we're talking about money? Ade: Mhmm, getting to the bag. More specifically and more to the point of this show, what role, if any, does education plays a role in securing said bag. Zach: You know, this is a great topic, I'm really excited that we're talking about it. Because I know for me growing up, education was a big deal. It was a big deal for its own sake because my mom is a principal now and before that, she was an English teacher. Butt off top she told me, look, the expectation is for you to get a Masters. We didn’t even talk about me going to college because we knew that we were going to college, no joke. I didn’t even walk for my undergrad degree. Not because I don’t believe college matters, but because it was so much the expectation. Ade: Same here - it wasn’t even a spoken thing, my family just expected me to go to college. You need to go to college to get a job and you need a job to get money so it was an automatic thought process there. Zach: Right, and to be honest I just figured the more education you got, the more money you’d make. But as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that isn’t always the case. Ade: Well, to keep it real for a second, how many people do we know who, at the barest minimum, have a bachelor's degree, but have not secured the bag?And before we go any further, this is certainly not to disparage anybody with a bachelor's degree under their belt, or who have terminal degrees. This is just a process of trying to understand what the secret sauce is. Listen, if there's a formula, somebody needs to put me on. I was on Fishbowl, which is, for those who don't know, it's an anonymous posting app for consultants and there were just so many different stories and conversations going on around compensation that I've never been exposed to before. And it’s even more unbelievable because that study I referenced at the top of the show, again it's called “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans”, it calls out median wealth by education level, and it shows a disparity between black and white families- where Black families with a post baccalaureate have a combined wealth of 84k white families at the same level have a combined wealth of almost 300k. The numbers get even more bleak with fewer years of education. Zach: Right, and I appreciate you sharing this data. It's a great report "Umbrellas don't make it rain", we'll make sure to have it in the actual show description but I look at those numbers myself like “HOW SWAY? HOW!!” How is that possible?! The thing about it is, though, neither one of us has finished grad school, so most of our talking points are gonna be second hand, right? It would be great if we could talk to a 1st generation Corporate professional who, maybe they graduated from a top 3 grad school in the nation. You know, someone who could share their story about their experiences Ade: Right, right Zach: What the job hunting was like and maybe how they used their degree to get to the next level, perhaps? Ade: Like our guest, Richard Odior? Ade + Zach : whaaaaaaa? Zach: Sound man - I need you to go ahead and drop them thangs in here for me! [air horns] Ade: [Laughs] alright, so next, we’re going to get into our interview with our guest Richard Odior. I hope you guys enjoy-------Zach: Hey y’all, we’re back! Annnnd as Ade said, we have Richard Odior on the show! Richard, welcome to Living Corporate man!Richard: Thanks for having me, guys, I'm glad to come to the show, I guess. This is exciting, man.Zach: So, for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing your story a bit? Specifically of how you (1) got into Corp America and (2) what led you to pursue an MBA?Richard: Yeah, so I went to the University of Houston and majored in Finance, and like anybody else in Houston, there's one option - oil and gas. So I quickly hopped into a career in finance in oil and gas for a couple of years, worked in commodity trading, then like financial performance analysis, pretty much all the board for a while. And then luckily I was able to gather with a group of friends who were trying to do some entrepreneurial things, and we opened up a chain of gourmet donut cafes in Houston. Shout out to Glazed. And so one of the things that the experience let me know is that I loved building things. I love growing things. But it also let me know I liked growing things fast. And what I learned about through that experience is that brick and mortar is a bit slower and so I went back to school in a sense to move back to a faster paced growth, and so for me that was tech, right? Tech enabled businesses. So, I went back to business school with two things in mind- either going to Venture Capital, or going to Consulting. Because I wanted to see a faster paced growth, that's kind of how my mission to go back to school started.Zach: So talk to me a bit more about growing things and growing things fast. When did you realize that the pace that you worked at was perhaps a little bit faster than that of your surroundings?Richard: Oh man, it was as soon as week three of work. I think at the time, oil and gas was moving slow, companies were paying people crazy amounts of dollars to do little work, and so I joined my new group, and I was probably the only other person under 30 in my group of like thirty five people. And primarily because companies were paying people to do work that could have been automated and people were not motivated to move up because they were getting annual promotions, annual raises, and it was outlandish. And I just realized this was very slow. In the first 6 month of being there, I had already surpassed a lot of people of the floor because everybody was coasting, and it wasn’t because I was doing anything amazing, I was just putting in more effort than the average individual, right?Zach: Right, right.Richard: And for me, that just kinda wasn't what I wanted to do. I figured 'while you're young, do as much as you can as fast as you can, and learn as much as you can.' So I just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing, and through the experiences I was able, and great mentors at the company, I was able to build really fast, get into new roles, get new opportunities that a lot of people probably wouldn't get into until several years into their career. And so that was pretty amazing, but then I realized I didn’t have ownership of anything. I didn't have anything that I could call my staple item. When you're working in oil and gas, you don't own an oil rig, you don't build an oil rig, you don't make any of that, so I was like 'what is my impact?' and I didn't feel it. And I felt like there was a way to feel it, that I wanted to tangibly know that I had changed something. So, I looked at somewhere else. And luckily I had some friends who were into the same thing, into building, into cultivating, into doing some really cool things. And we just started chatting and we said 'hey, what can we do?'Zach: Were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven right when you got there? And were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven wrong?Richard: One preconceived notion, at least for business school, and I'll speak to business school, the hardest part was getting in. Once you're in, it's busy, it's difficult, it's kind of like a ride. You're growing yourself and learning and meeting new people all the time, and sometimes a lot of the work gets masked, if that makes sense. You don't realize how much work you're doing because it's masked in so many other experiences. The opportunities really feel global. Like, I traveled almost thirty countries in two years, it was ridiculous.Zach: thirty countries in two years?Richard: Yeah I think the final number was like twenty-eight. And I can speak for myself, I don't want to speak for all minorities, but it's just one of the things that a friend of mine told me - speak up, raise your hand, and don't be afraid. Minorities tend to feel like our voice is not going to be on par with the rest of everybody. We think about what we're going to say so carefully because we want to seem a certain way, and what I realized, and what my buddy told me, he was like 'you're here because you earned it. Don't ever feel like you didn't earn it, and don't ever feel like you can't compete.' Those were really really big words for me because I think often times I went to a public school, I went to the University of Houston, right? And a lot of b school classes have students coming out of Columbia, Harvard, Yale, and so sometimes you get this mindset like 'yoo what am I going to do, I'm not on the same level.' And then you get in there and you pull something out of yourself that you don't understand that you have. And you understand that you're here because you're valuable, you're here because you bring something to the table, and I think that was one of the things that I had to shake off when I first got there.Zach: It's funny that you bring that up, talking about 'you look around the room and you see all these people that got really big collegiate names next to them' and how you question yourself like 'do you really belong there.' it's funny because a couple shows ago we had- we were talking about imposter syndrome and how you battle that. And it's funny that you kind of bring that up when you say 'not feeling like you should have to prove your seat at the table.' But that if you're here, you earned it, and you're here for a reason.I hope that people take that away and that they're encouraged by it. That's a really good message. And I think it's actually applicable in and outside of Academia, right?Richard: I always tell people like 'Let someone else turn you away,' right?Zach: Straight up, yeahRichard: The amount of times we (and I talk about we as the minority population), We self-doubt ourselves, right? We say oh-- I remember in undergrad, there was a career fair and there were several companies recruiting. And my buddies, we walked in and they veered off left and I veered off to the right and I was like 'yo guys, why don't you come in here?' and they were like 'well my GPA's not this and my grades aren't that' and I said 'let them tell you no'. I'm not going to tell myself no, you know? Someone needs to pat me on the back and say 'Hey Richard, what you're doing is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your product is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your grades aren't good enough', because I'm not going to tell myself I'm not good enough.Zach: Man, amenRichard: I'm going to walk in there, I'm going to hand in my resume to whoever's there, and we're going to have this conversation, and then you're gonna tell me I'm not good enough.Zach: No, straight up, I'm cheering you on when you're talking because man, that's my philosophy. Like, look man, there's plenty of people out there who will tell me I'm not whatever. I'm either too academic or not academic enough, I'm either too strategic or too tactical, or I'm too this or not enough that. Listen, man. There's enough out there already of all of that. So I'm not gonna be an additional voice for that, I'm going to tell myself I am enoughRichard: You are enough, yeah!Zach: You know, like what's the point? So you gonna sit back and join every other voice that's out there? Not to be super pessimistic and say that the world's against you, that's not what I'm saying. But there's more than enough voices and perspectives and opinions, be that for whatever reason, that are gonna discount you, so don't discount yourself! Let them tell you, Let them push you out the room, let them tell you that you shouldn't sit at the table. Then you fight, but don't kick yourself before you even get started.Richard: 100% you gotta walk in like you already have a seat at the table every time you walk in the room.Zach: RightRichard: Every time. Every time you walk in the room. Now, I'm gonna let you pull my chair out, but I'm not pulling my own chair out of underneath myself.Zach: I'm saying! [Laughs]Richard: I have a seat!Zach: That's rightRichard: I don't care what room it is. I walk in, I have a seat. That's how you have to operate.Zach: No absolutely. Well look, man, today as you know, we're talking about getting to the bag, right? And so the context was all around, like, we looked at a study called Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain and it's essentially dispelling certain myths about wealth inequality and income inequality. And one of the things for me and Ade that we were talking about on the show, growing up, I just thought that if you got a grad degree, that they were just going to hand you money, right? That you're just gonna walk out of that thing with a thick six-figure salary, and so my question to you - what would you say to people who just make that assumption? Like look, I went to grad school, I got my MBA, and now it's time for me to get that 160,000, 180,000, 220,000 dollar bag. Like, what would you say to people who make that assumption?Richard: Whew, uh, I think a couple things to get the bag, you gotta be ready, first what are you bringing to the table? What industry are you looking to go into? What were you doing before? And how are you going to change the organization that you're going to now? So, for example, even me going to business school was interesting. I remember when I was making the decision, I was basically a finance guy, so I had to put it in a spreadsheet, right? And so, I had to say 'okay, if I go to business school and pay X and come out and get paid this, then it's valuable.' And I hate to sound like a snob, in a sense, but I think a lot of times people don't understand what they're investing in when they go to grad school. And I say this to say - not to knock any program - all programs are not created equal, all opportunities are not created equal, so going to any grad school is not the same as going to certain grad schools, if that makes senseZach: YeahRichard: And it all depends on where you are in life, right? At a certain point, I usually say it's a premium spot is maybe 4 to 6, anywhere from 4 to 6 years is a premium spot because you've probably made good enough money at the place you're in, but still have enough value from the MBA to get the post-MBA salary and still be worth it. Let me give an example - if you work 8 years and you've made your salary is now at X dollars, it's harder to leverage the MBA because the jump that you can make is smaller, right? But if you go at prime time, which is usually, for most people about 4-6 years, a jump is still very sizeable. So for example, I was blessed with a really good job before, like I said, it was great, I was making really good money. But post MBA, I was still able to increase my overall salary by more than 50%. At that point, the numbers still made sense. But if I had stayed in my current company for maybe another year or two, the jump would not have been as large.Zach: RightRichard: Also, I think some of the big things - it's not just about the bag now, it's about the bag later. And I say that in the sense that if you go to the right program with the right resources and the right network, the beauty of it is, it's not just about you getting the bag today, but your network will also be getting the bag. And so your network is your bag as well. Because whenever they're looking to hire a consultant down the line? It's you. Whenever they're looking to hire someone for an acquisition? It's you. They're gonna operate in the network of other people that they believe are competent. One of the things I noticed - I work in consulting- one of the things I noticed was some of the best managing directors, what they leverage is their MBA network. What they utilize is their other classmates working in industry, at whatever company it may be, and they reach out to them and they sell these huge million dollar projects back and forth. And because that bag is not just a today bag, it's a future bag, right? And so I won't say that knowledge isn't something that you can always google. There's a lot of aspects you can Google about the knowledge you can get, the documentation, but a large part of business school is the in-person interaction. I used to sit with my classmates from Colombia, India, Indonesia, all over the world, and we would talk about different concepts and I'd learn directly from them. And two things that I got - I got unique knowledge, but I also got to know them better. So, when I tell you I went to 28 countries, I was going with these people from those countries and I was learning business through them and with them and now in the future, they know that if an opportunity comes, I can knock on their door, they can knock on mine.Zach: When we talk about wealth or the bag, I know for me that my default is "how much money am I going to make off of this job?' Individually, me, right now. As opposed to, to your point, pulling from your network, right? And thinking about, you said, the bag in the future. I would say even if your bag is only, you know, in the context of a yearly salary, your bag isn't big enough, right? Like I would say you need to be thinking about really what encompasses the bag. And to your point, it's that network. When you think about MDs and Partners and Principals, especially cats who have been selling work for 5, 10, 15 years, they typically are selling work back and forth to like the same what like 7 or 8 people?Richard: 7 or 8 people!Zach: Like it's not like they're like 'oh I found this brand new guy that just popped out of nowhere' No, they have a network there.Richard: That's part of the bag. The relationships are part of the bag because ideally, one of the things I realized, and if you go to the right program, if you do it the right way, you don't have to get to the bag immediately. And I've seen it multiple times where someone went to grad school, they might have not gotten the exact job they wanted, but they take another job, they did well, they got promoted, then two jobs down the line, when a great opportunity comes with that company, well their friend works at that company and is high in that company, and they pull them over. You see a gravitation of 'oh that company's run by a bunch of X people that go to that school, that company is run by a lot of people that go to that program.' It's because there's a relationship that's being built, that's being carried over in so many ways. There's a reason why certain companies recruit at certain schools, because those relationships, someone high in that company is from that school and has that relationship, so there's definitely value. And if you're changing industries, there's definitely a value there. And that was one of the factors that if you're putting it into a spreadsheet, you won't be able to put that part in the spreadsheet. Your bag might not be actual cash, it might be your happiness and your enjoyment of getting into something you wanna do. I have a lot of friends from school who might have been doing things like banking, investment banking previously, making north of 200 [thousand] a year, and took jobs that make maybe half of that post because their ideal goal was to get to something that was different, and that was the bag for them. And so identifying what your bag is is a big thing. If you identify what your bag is, then you can identify how to get to the bagZach: That's a really good point, man. I like that a lot. So to your point, I think perspective matters. What you're thinking about what your goals are. Which actually is a good segue to my next question, so as a follow up to that, what was your strategy for you on leveraging an MBA for where you want to go? So when you think about - man did you even plug the school? Did you plug the school that you went to?Richard: Oh I gotta plug my school, I was waiting for the end, but I went to Kellogg, man. Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, man. That's my home, man. They took care of me for a good two years, man.Zach: There we go. So my question is when you think about Kellogg and the degree that you earned, what was your strategy on leveraging your MBA for where you wanted to go? Like how did it fit into your master plan?Richard: I'm still leveraging it now. I mean, in multiple ways. I think for me, the school, ideally chose the school for one a few reasons, right? One was the programs that had the learning that I like to learn. It had a lot of hands-on learning, but mixed with class work. And they promised that you would work in over 400 groups before you left. And I was like wow, 400? I was like alright. And the importance of that was that I work best when I get to know people. Like I'm not the best, but I've always been good at managing relationships and I wanted to go to a school where I'd get to interact with people, manage and harvest relationships, and be able to develop with these people. So when I chose the school, that was definitely in mind, and then on top of that, since I've been in school, the network is amazing. I've been able to reach out to so many people and I've made mentors and connections through our network that have been beyond anything I could have dreamed about. And I'm still making networks and connections, I'm still making calls, and I'm still giving back in the same way. And so I'm always in this realm of gratefulness to the program, but it's leveraged me to be able to have conversations with individuals who probably would never, if I had just tried to make a certain transition, would answer my call. In my phone, to this day, I have the numbers saved of at least 5 millionaires. Easily. And that's a minimum. And those came through the experience of when I got to Kellogg, connecting with certain people, being continuously connected to my goals. For me, I had several short term and long term goals. I was able to utilize my network very early on. I remember the first week of school, we did an exercise, and it was in your sections, sections were usually around 60 people, and so our professor said I want you to tell me something that is one of your largest goals and I want you to put it on the board. And we're one by one putting it on the board. And anybody who could help you get to your goal would come write their name on your sheet.Zach: oh wow, that's powerful.Richard: and it was interesting because he said 'you don't realize what you have alone in this room. Not even the whole school, but what you have alone in this room.' And from that first week of school alone, from the people who wrote their name on my list, I've been able to go so far. It's been crazy, I've met some of the millionaires I was said I connected to was through one exercise. And they leveraged me to introduce me to other people and it's been amazing and so, because of that, I naturally have been given experiences where I don't even have to leverage the MBA, the MBA gave to me directly, if that makes sense.Zach: No it does, that makes a lot of sense, man. So look, I have a last question for you - do you have any other plugs, other shoutouts?Richard: Whew, um, I got a lot of shout outs, a lot og plugsZach: Do your thing man, do your thingRichard: I gotta do a Glazed Donut Café - if you’re in Houston, for sure, check this out. They're my family. Love you. Kellogg's School of Management, Bauer was my undergrad, go Coug's, I learned everything I know from them. I also wanna plug Impact America Fund. One of the firms I used to work at, and I got connected to them during business school. It's a double bottom line venture capital fund which focuses on investing in minority entrepreneurs and underrepresented minorities. I learned a lot from the people at that firm and I've grown a lot through them. I want to shout out to Living Corporate for doing what they're doing. You guys don't know how major this is right here. Honestly, as someone who has constantly worked in corporate america, this is something we used to talk about in business school is - we often have to cover and hover and hide who we are constantly, and what you guys are giving people is the opportunity to really be open, and also an opportunity to see that you're not alone in the workplace. Which is often times when you're the 'other,' you always feel alone. This podcast alone has excited me so much because it lets me know I'm not alone, and lets me hear the stories of people who are doing great things that are also considered an 'other' at work.Zach: Aw man, that's amazing, well first of all Richard, bro thank you for the kind words. The thing about it is, what excites me is your energy is - and spoiler alert for those who don't know, Richard and I are friendly, and we've known each other for about a decade now-Richard: yeah man, a decade!Zach: But what's crazy, and what excites me is the fact that when you say something, especially when you give praise, and also when you constructive criticism, but when you speak all that energy, it comes from a really authentic place. And so, we wanna thank you for joining us today, and definitely all the shout outs- I want to endorse. Eat Glazed. Glazed is a great donut spot, good donuts, great flavors, if you're in Houston, check it out. You'll probably see us shout them out on our IG stories, so stay tuned for that, but anyway, Richard man, thank you for joining us todayRichard: Yeah, and any minorities who are listening and you're thinking about grad school or business school, I can speak specifically to business school, if you're thinking about business school, feel free to hit me up. Honestly, I'm an open book, I like talking, I'll have a conversation with you, anyone who needs anything honestly. My goal is to see more of us in those spaces, because honestly something I will say is it's a leveling ground. It evens out the field and I've seen it multiple times, for people who were not given a silver spoon to start off with. So if you want to have a conversation, if you just have questions in general, these guys have my contact info, feel free to reach out and we can chop it upZach: We'll definitely put the contact info in the podcast description. Drop your stuff, man, what's your twitter, your IG-Richard: yeah so my email is richard.odior@gmail.com, my IG is r.odior. That's it, you can find me on facebook, find me on LinkedIn, feel free to touch base any time. Let me know that you came from Living Corporate first so I can show these guys some love.Zach: [laughs] yeah man, that's what's up. Richard, again brother, thank you. We look forward to talking to you again soon, brother. Alright, Peace.--Ade: And we’re back. Yo, that was a great interview and Richard was a fun guest. He had some great insights on how you can leverage a degree for your goals, but I think I’m more certain now than I was before that that degree isn’t a cheat code. Zach: Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I was raised to think that having a graduate degree would give me one two three four five six seven eight Ms in my bank account. Ade: Right, but at the same time I do believe the degrees have their time and place. They just need to be part of your plan. Which is it’s own thing. Zach: Real talk. I know for me I genuinely want to get a grad degree, right? First it was an MBA, but now I’m thinking an I/O Psych PHD but -- Ade: Oh, ok you fancy huh? Zach: I am very fancy, for sure. The point is, I’m trying to think it through, like the why of the degree, because school isn't free. Definitely not even cheap Ade: Sure isn't, sure is not. And, listen, we started off the show talking about wealth inequality and how it isn’t fixed purely by education. I don’t think this should discourage people from pursuing a degree. I do hope that this conversation helps us think critically and analyze fairly common assumptions many of us were raised to believe about how wealth is generated and distributed. Like Richard alluded to, we’re going to have to re-think what “the bag” is for us and what our strategy to secure it, it has to be more than an annual salary. Zach: Right! That’s a soundbite for sure. This is a huge, complex, and yes, frustrating topic, but I believe the starting point is awareness, then thoughtful dialogue, then planning and then action. Ade: Agreed! Anyway - let’s get into our next segment - my favorite things, where we talk about what our favorite things are these days. Zach : Yes! My favorite thing right now has to be this book I’m reading called Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race, by Reni Eddo-Lodge. It’s so frank and honest. I also have a bias towards aggressive book titles. Book titles that let you know exactly what it's about when you pick it up. I just, I really enjoy that. Also, shout out to Glazed Donuts. Glazed Donuts is a gourmet donut restaurant based in Houston TX. I can tell you they have a great product - donuts, sandwiches, kalaches, juice, allat. Shout out to Richard, Bobby, Edose, TJ and all the members of the Glazed Donut team. Ade: So currently, I have at the absolute top of my list of one true loves, I have this book called Children of Blood and Bone. It is by Tomi Adeyemi who wrote just an amazing, amazing work. And I'm looking forward to reading more from her. I'm Nigerian, I'm Yoruba, and it's really beautiful to see the Yoruba pantheon of gods incorporated into a literary work. So go check that out if you are interested at all in, well, reading. But also if you're interested at all in any fantasy novels, really really good book. My other favorite thing- I don't know if you've seen I just got a new dog. His name is Benji. Well, technically his name is Maximillian Benjamin Gold the third. There is no first or second, but yeah. We are extra over here around these parts. I call him Benji because I'm the more sane mama. I'm well grounded and down to earth and all of those things. So my beautiful beautiful baby husky is just my newest ray of sunlight and I just, I cannot get enough of him. I've taken 262 pictures and I've posted maybe 3 of them, so like I'm not being obsessive and I'm not being 'that guy' but. He's a gorgeous pup, and I do say so myself. Zach: Dope! Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. This is has been Zach. Ade: and I’m Ade Both : peace!9:19 -> 10:18

In our first episode, Zach and Ade discuss the topic of impostor syndrome and welcome former fortune 50 executive, Amazon best selling author, and entrepreneur Fenorris Pearson to share his story. Length: 00:47:30Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTZACH: It's 2011 and I just graduated from the University of Houston (go Coogs!). I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed and I'm scared out of my mind. It's my first day and a large retail company an HR Manager and since I'm an "Executive Team Lead", there's a big orientation with all the other "Executive Team Leads in the region. At 20 years old, I'm easily. One of the youngest managers in the company. I look around the room and I see folks way older than me and seemingly much more comfortable in their own skin. I should be excited. I should be thankful. I should be happy. Instead, I only had one statement seared in my mind. First a whisper, then finally, a clear assertion: I don't belong here. This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. ZACH: So today we're talking about imposter syndrome. An hbr article defines it as a collection of feelings of inadequacy that persists despite evidence success. Ade, can you relate to that? ADE: Absolutely. On our website, which you also check out by the way, there is a quick little blurb about the fact that I'm an aspiring software engineer. I knew nothing about code before I started exploring it and I can't tell you the number of times I sat in a room and I was like, OK, I heard the words that came out of your mouth and I'm pretty certainly were in English, but I could not tell you for the life of me what they meant to. There's just this repeated feeling of, I'm in the wrong group. You have you ever had that dream where everybody around you can see you naked and you're not aware until he looked down and realized, oh crap, they're laughing at me. I'm just that repeated feeling of I'm in the wrong room and everybody can see it. Also in like my own job, my current position, I'm always feeling like I'm always hesitant to answer questions even though I know the answer to them because I'm often either the youngest person in the room or the least experience. And I find that despite how confident I might be when it's just me and I know that I've done my homework and I know that I've done all the background necessary, I always find myself like second guessing myself for that one, very brief, split second, and sometimes that's just the difference between somebody else getting the position or somebody else getting an accolade for something that I already knew the answer to. ZACH: That's so real. Speaking for myself, I know that there's been multiple times where I know that I've done the research. I know I've done the homework, I know that I've done everything that's calling for me to do. And yet when I get in those rooms where you have those moments, there's always like the sneaky thing where I'm like, "ah, I really don't this, this whole thing is a sham", right? Like where I feel as if like at any point at any moment, like they're gonna pull back the curtain just kinda like where's it at the end. The one that was a great and powerful Oz. And you look behind the sheet and it's like just a regular dude. And I know for me like that's a genuine feeling of mine, right? I know that this is a relevant topic because even like on Fishbowl, which is like a, for those who don't know, fishbowl is an anonymous posting essentially like think like, um, like twitter, but there's no user names, don't know if it's completely anonymous and even we look across like, you know, when you just look at fish bowl, which I would say the predominant number of users are white folks. They talk about this all the time and like it leads to all types of issues, it's the source of so many different types of stresses and frustrations for them. They'll say things like "I'm really depressed here", and "you know, I really just felt as if anyone was going to find me out", "I really don't feel like I know what I'm doing and everyone else is an expert", and so on and so forth. I mean, I've seen people who are engagement managers and partners and directors, postings like that, right? And so I don't feel like it's necessarily something that's so isolated to me or definitely to you. And I know you've done some research on this. What insights can you share about how common or uncommon the feeling of being an imposter or just how common or uncommon imposter syndrome is? ADE: So we found a research that suggests that up to 70 percent of people, in professional settings report I'm having felt some sort of, um, anxiety related to impostor syndrome. And I know I've done personal research back in my graduate days. I'm on particularly students of color and feelings of inadequacy in school settings, but I didn't really find any that, that spoke to the experiences of underrepresented groups in corporate America. I would venture to say that the present is of those particular groups that are higher for people who are already one of the few where you find yourself being the only black person. The only black woman, the only gay person or the only the only used in the room and I've always wondered what it must be like for people of color to climb any corporate ladder because the higher you go, the less there are of us.ZACH: Straight up. No, you're absolutely right. I mean I definitely agree when you look at the data and I definitely reviewed the research that you shared and thank you for that. It didn't break it down by the "only" one in the room, to the language that you used. It didn't break it down by you know, how present that feeling must be for the only black woman or the only first generation immigrant or like ow much stronger those feelings must be. Because for me, when I think about imposter syndrome, I think about the fact that not only do I feel like this, but there's no one around who looks like me who I can actually have a conversation with either. So I feel like doubly alone, you know what I mean? ADE: Yeah, I do. I mean, it would be great if we had a guest who could speak on their experiences. I mean, they will need to be like, I dunno, executive at a couple of fortune 50 companies they wrote an Amazon bestseller or where does, because that won't be an entrepreneur. ZACH: Oh, you mean like our first guest of the pod, Fenorris Pearson? ADE: Yeah! We're going to get it to her interview with the first guest of our show, Fenorris Pearson. ZACH: Hey, y'all went back and as I said we have for Norris s'mores. Welcome to Living Corporate.!First official show you kicking us off, how does it feel?FENORRIS: It feels great. Feels great, man. Excited. And I'm excited to be a part of this groundbreaking podcast show. ZACH: I appreciate it, man. So you and I have a history. We've, we've worked together. You've been a mentor of mine for years, but for those who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit of your story? Let's just start about how you got into corporate America. FENORRIS: Absolutely. So I come from, I grew up in a family of 10. Seven boys, three girls. Grew up in the projects. I was the first one and they only one want to get a college degree andcertainly our postgraduate degree in business and organizational development. I always aspired, even though it was a pretty good athlete, there was a division one scholarship athlete, student athlete, a lot of success in basketball, I was always inspired to be a businessman. So I, graduated and moved into a corporate America. I always believed in myself, but I know God always has provided grace and favor in my life. So as I entered into corporate America, um, it was one of those things where I had goals, I had certain aspirations to get to. Certain things were more important than anything I wanted to not lose myself, who I am, and who I was as an individual as I aspired and as I transitioned into bigger roles and bigger responsibilities within corporate. So I became, be at the age of 38, the youngest senior vice president, African American executive at that at Motorola. I became a senior vice president of organizational development in Motorola, had over 300 some employees that worked for me around the world. And that was after, at that time I was probably in my... I was 38, but I had probably been with Motorola for about six, seven years. Ended up transitioning from Motorola to go and work for Dale. And I worked for the number two man at Dell who reported to Michael Dell. And that was a huge experience as well too. So before the age of 40, I was a part of two fortune 50 companies that I was a senior level executive and two of the biggest companies in the world before the age of 40. So getting there was an interesting journey to the point where it sparked me to run a book. And the book was called "How to Play the Game at the Top" and that was inspired in my conversation that I had with one of the most senior executives in the world, this guy was the founder and the visionary of a phone called the Razor. Many out there may recall this phone, it was a thin, sleek, they called it the razor and it was one of their iconic phones within this time and I was part of the leadership team, the executive leadership team to develop and put that phone on the market. So am I hitting what you want to talk about? ZACH: Absolutely. This is exactly what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to hear essentially how you got here. And so your story that you're sharing the answers that question. I'm curious if you're talking about these experiences and you're working for these individuals and working at extremely senior levels, was there ever like one specific moment that you realized like, wow, wait a minute, I'm in rarefied air here. Like, this is a special position, like was there a specific moment? FENORRIS: There was two moments that I recall that I'm like, wow, OK, there were two distinct, different learnings from them. The first learning was about me standing up and sticking true to who you are, particularly from a male and from a man's perspective and just about your character, who you are and what you stand for. That story is, there's a, there's a woman tthat I had hired. She was from Kellogg. I brought her on board as a director, but she was extremely qualified and so, and, but she happens to be a minority. She happens to be a female and African American. And her and I at one point were visiting an we were taking on a restructuring of a, of a 14, 15 billion dollar business. And so my job was to begin to do an org diagnostic and assessment of the strengths, the weaknesses, what's working, what's not working, typical diagnostic stuff. And I'm, this young woman, uh, was part of the, um, the team that I would take in and we'll go on and sit down and discuss with an executive. And one particular executive really was not feeling, he time that we had set aside and that we had documented that this is when we're going to meet, this is the nature of this conversation, this is what we're going to be trying to accomplish. What are you doing this time? So it was two of us, myself in this young female who was extremely qualified and competent. And so we get into the office and this man for whatever reasons, in a bad mood. And he is, he apparently had just got back from Europe over London and was tired. But, he was very rude to us and he was extremely rude to me in front of this young African American female and the better, calmer nature of me decided to handle this individual in a professional way because the point, the decision that I had to make was what's more important? Do I continue with trying to move forward with doing this my job? Or do I sit here and let this young female who I just hired a watch me kowtow and belittle myself and lose sense of who I am as a man, forget my job or getting my responsibility just as a man and have this young woman forever look at me as a senior African, "oh, so this is what you have to do in order to be an executive in corporate America." I made a decision at that time that at no point will allow this woman's memory, ah, to be as a man and as an executive, to accepted such disrespect from this senior executive sitting across the table from me. So I said to him, I said to her, I said, I started off. I said, sir, if this is not a good time, um, shall, we can, we can come back and continue this, um, this, uh, this interview. And he was like, no, this is a good time because it's a good time, which doesn't appear to be because I'm the, I'm feeling some tension here. And then so I asked this young woman, I said, "you know, what, could you, could you excuse us?" And I said her name and he said, "no, she can stay here." [Then I said] "As you know, she's, she's my direct report and requesting that she excused herself from this conversation." And so is she excused herself from this conversation. I looked at him, I got up on the edge of my seat and I looked at it across the table and I said to him, I said, "you and I know sir, if you and I were outside of this organization, there is no way you would approach me like that because you would be fearful." I'm six, seven tall, sexy, OK. And he's about six feet. OK. And so, so my whole point to him was that, that, that you wouldn't dare approach me and this manner, and I'm, I'm not going to let this young woman's memory be a of me as a man, as a senior executive that happened to me, a man of color. I'm someone that was just allowing himself to be treated with such disrespect. OK? So, so, so that moment, Zach was a moment that, that changed my career because at this, at this point I was I was a vice president of a business unit, but not of the entire corporation. OK? So at this moment, this man changed his attitude, uh, you know, kind of backpedaled a little bit. I asked for the young woman to come back in. And, uh, we continued to interview. Now, the second aspect that I talked to you about the change when I realized I was in rarefied air, uh, as an, as an executive and Corporate America was when two days later this man calls me up and I'm like, "Oh crap, OK." You know, he's going to be on some, some, some Caucasian man stuff. And he's going to exert his power. He's going to exert his authority and you know what, I may get fired. OK? All right. So cool. So I made the decision at the time, decided to address him and I decided to ask this young woman to, to leave the room that I was willing to suffer any consequence for the sake of keeping my dignity. My mom used to always say, if you don't fall for something, you'll fall for anything. And I wasn't about to fall for having him berating me. And more importantly, have this last impression of this young woman who's at the beginning of her career, I'm thinking that she has to or she has to be a certain way besides just being who she is in order to be successful in corporate America. Little did I know that, uh, when this call came was the call was totally the opposite of what I thought this call was. And so he asked me, he, um, so first of all, his assistant called my assistant and assistant asked me, did I ask my assistant and I have done, was I available? I said yes. I picked up the phone. And um, he said, so interesting conversation Finnaris - he didn't say for "Fenorris" as my name, but he said from "Finnaris". Interesting conversation. So here's what I want to do. I want to, I want you to go on a trip with me. And so I'm like, what do you mean go on a trip? At Motorola, we had all these corporate jets and so we had these corporate jets, and so being on the corporate jet, certainly I've been on commercial airplanes, but I never been on my own private jet. And so, so he asked me to meet him, at our hanger where we keep all our corporate Jets outside of Chicago.And so I met him there and I was lgoing to say, as a lot transpired between the time of him asking me to meet him there and the conversation that we had on the phone. But I'm thinking when I get there, it's going to be a group of people I'm just going off to Sunnyvale, California. Little did I know at the time that he called me. He had just got promoted to be the president, the number two person and pretty much it as running a motor roller or he had just got promoted at that time on the phone call. I didn't know it. So when I get there at a hanger, I'm thinking it's going to be a bunch of the people that's going to be on this jet is just, it turns out it's just him and I. So we get there - and this is a true story. We get on the jet and we're getting ready to take off. So you're, you know, on a jet is, is everything in all kinds of food. So I'm trying to be cool and act Like I've been there before, but at the same time, like this big lobster over there, some shrimp, like, wow, this is nice, you know? I got my leather seats, I got plush leather everywhere, communication equipment, et Cetera, et cetera. So he said, so you're probably wondering why it's just me and you. I said, "absolutely" So we're taking off getting ready to head out to Sunnyvale, California from outside of Chicago. He said, "the reason why I put you on this, I got you on his plane because what want to share with you is something that most of us never talked to you guys about."So two words. "Most of us", meaning mostly Caucasian white men and "you guys", I'm sure everybody that's probably listening to refer it with, uh, you know, Kinda get the meaning of you guys as meaning African Americans or people of color. Never really get a chance to, um, understand how we operate. And so I got on a plane because it's going to be my word against your word. I have no idea how you may react to what I'm about to say to you. But, um, what I want you to know is when I spoke with you and I came at you that I'm at that, um, at that meeting we had, it was all by design. I'm like, why? Wha? What do you mean? "I want to see how you would react to see if you would stand up for yourself. I see so many of you guys out there that are so motivated to be, um, to be, uh, to get ahead, that you will, will allow anything, ah, or had someone to do anything or say anything to you in order to get your stripes. OK? In order to get your where you feel like you belong. Rightfully belonged in. A lot of you guys depend on succession planning. A lot of you guys depend on, uh, the affinity groups like the African American group or the Hispanic Mba group, that those groups are going to allow you all to be in a certain, um, I'd be a part of certain conversations." So as I'm listening to this, I'm like, I can't believe I'm hearing all this. So he's like, "what I wanted you to know is that it was a test" and a little did you know that at that time I saw you got promoted to the president of this business unit, this business. And it happens to be the biggest business unit in Motorola. Motorola was probably about a 55, $60,000,000,000 business. So one of the biggest business units in the world. And I was certain he says he's the number two man in control. And so, um, so he said "what I wanted to do was to see if you will stand up for yourself. I wanted to see because most of you guys to try and aspire in to the next levels, you lose a sense of who you are and what you're all about. Some of you guys even change your voice. You even change your voice." This is interesting coming from, from a white man, this white man, it's assessing and able to have been around enough by people to know. And if we're all real, we all know some people. And just because that to them, just because we change our voice means that we're, we're trying to be like them or not. That's how they accepted. Some of us may talk proper, all right? And so there's nothing wrong with them, but from his perspective, OK. And so this is his thought process, but he continues, "even some of you guys try and change her voice to be in, to feel like you're, you know, you're more accepted with us. What really sparked my interest to have you on my team was that you stood up to me because I'm trying to build a team with this new role that I just got. I don't want yes-people around me and I don't want people to just tell me what they think I want to hear because that doesn't do me any good. "He continues, "I've also been inspired in my life by two African Americans" and I'm like, wow, this is really getting great. Keep in mind we're 30, 40,000 feet up in the air. We're on a plane talking about this is that there's these two African American men. I said, so why me? Why me? He says, "there were two African American men in my life that inspired me, right? What most of my white counterparts don't know is that I grew up poor. I grew up with a single mom. All right? Because of my white male. See me. They see me, they see the wharton school, a business school, they see a harvard, they see all those degrees. But what they don't understand this, that, you know, I had a single mom that raised me. And then so I had two African American men that, that, that, um, uh, sowed some seeds into my life that inspired me to not do bad things because my mom worked all the time. And I was out in the streets getting into trouble and these two African American men on the boxing gym out in New Jersey and they, and they, you know, they just took me in and they gave me, they made me, you help me become more disciplined. And I was so appreciative of that because it wouldn't have been no telling what I would've done." I kind of referred to him as rain man, if anyone ever seen the movie rain man, he was half genius and half crazy. So, so that experience that he had always inspired him to want to do something and give something back to a minority because those two, those two men changed his life to the point where I thought it was bs in down the road, but he even donated money back in New Jersey to named schools a school after this man, after these men. So he put up hundreds of thousands of dollars donated so the school could be named after these two men. So as he's telling me, the reason why we're on the plane is because it's my word against your word and this is stuff that we would never ever talk to you about how, how we do things, how, how things go down, how decisions get made. There are meetings before meetings...that the meetings before the meetings proceed and take decisions are made before we actually get into the meeting that was supposed to be making the decisions and you understand what I'm saying? You guys are never exposed to those things. What I want to know if I want you to, I want you to know someone on my team and what you need to understand that there are consequences for, for that there are, there are good consequences and there are consequences that, that just happened and the light, but corporate. So explain to me what he meant by that is that, for example, he talked to me about the difference between mentors and sponsors. He said, "what I'm offering you is not to be your mentor, but to be your sponsor." A mentor is someone is going to provide coaching, provide guidance, helped you prepare for an interview. A sponsor is someone that's going to say, "that's my guy."I'll give you give you an example. When I left Motorola and went to Dell, typically you would go through an interview process where - particularly people of color - you're going to meet, you're going to go two or three times. I interviewed one time and I interviewed with Michael Dell and no one else and my salary, my sign on bonus. I had a sign on bonus about $300,000. I had a golf membership at a country club out at the place that we built is built the place outside of Texas Dell headquarters since in round rock, Texas and build a 10,000 square-foot home out in Lake Travis. I had everything. OK. But my point here is not on the material things. My point is under the process or how they do stuff and trying to help people understand the difference between the mentor and sponsor. The fact that he sponsored me, only have to see one person. I didn't have to go through all of these interviews, all of these parading me then come back here, come back for the next round of interviews.That's the process that they typically take us through. But how they do, if they bring someone in that they want, they don't have to go through that process. They don't have to go through. And if they do go through several interviews, you can bet it's just, it's just a formality there justtsomething to make it look like it's a competition for the job, but they've already made a decision. That's the difference between mentors and sponsors. And he wanted me to Kinda understand that he was offering me something totally different from what I ever even thought about. I always thought the name of the game was mentorship, right? I always thought the name of the game was, if you know, if you work, you and I, you know, I was smart. I thought if I work harder and smarter than you, I'm going to get promoted. That's not how the game works. We could be the smartest, we could. We know we work work harder because are who we are and how we were raised, but that's still, it's not a deciding factor. And then, so he talked to me about the difference between the electorial vote in the popular vote. I want you to understand that a lot of minorities spend their time on focusing on the popular vote in the popular vote means a, if you think about the election many, many years ago with Al Gore and President Bush, at that time, first time the whole thing ever came into play is when Al Gore won the popular vote, but he did not become the president of this country due to electorial vote, which is a lot less votes than the popular vote. OK? So his whole point from a business perspective is that sometimes we get so concerned on trying to please and make everybody happy, but when you take a step back and look at your career, there's only one or two people that could really influence and impact your career to getting it to where you want to go. And that's what he called instilled like electoral votes. And he said, what I'm offering you is an electoral vote, not a popular vote. So the question that you asked early on was, what were some of the events that that allowed me to know that I was in rarefied air? One, no pun intended, been 30, 40,000 feet up in a private jet. I'm certainly up and rarified air, but a meaningful perspective from a, from a development perspective, hearing how he explained and what he shared. And they said there like they're the reason why I'm sharing this with you on this claim this because you can't record what I'm saying. You can't. If you don't, if you think this is racist or whatever, you can't go and call a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. He sent these names for real. I'm serious because it's just my word against your word and it gives you a word and one of the things that you should understand is never, ever dance between two big two elephants. Because if you dance between two elephants, you might get crushed. And what he was saying is, is that you know, if you choose to, if you choose to make this a big deal, then it's going to be my word against your word and I have my word and as I have a whole corporate hr machine that's behind me, and you may, you may get your impact. You may get your story out, but at the same time it's my word against your word and I think we could understand how that would end so that those were two major events that changed my mind. That made me really know that while I was in rarefied air. Amazing stories that has really guided the way that I lead and the way that I now transition from corporate world to a entrepreneur world where I'm the CEO of a company called pursuit of hope. This is a whole different background from, um, from the corporate world and being executive into an entrepreneur and that's a whole different... a segment that you can do down the road since transitioning from corporate to be an entrepreneur and just huge differences there. And how success in one area doesn't necessarily equate to an another area is totally different thought process and that's something that I'm more than willing to share about my experiences. ZACH: Those are amazing stories. I have like two more questions for you. So you know that we're talking about my imposter syndrome today. Essentially that's just a feeling of inadequacy or that you're somehow out of place and a space that everyone else from your perspective clearly is rightfully placed in. So did you ever feel that way? Do you ever. Did you ever feel like you had to battle imposter syndrome? And if you did ever feel that way, how did you manage those anxieties and kind of keep that stuff at bay? FENORRIS: So I think that's a great question. First of all, to be totally candid with you, that question goes back to how I was raised. I never felt like just because I was an African American man that I was less than or better than anybody because my mom always raised me up...my mom used to refer to me and my older brother that grew up together as - and it sounds corny - but, she would refer to us as my Kennedy boys. And so I'm like, my mom is my mom thinking me like the Kennedy Boys. And this is me. I was like eight, nine, 10, 11 years old. My mom, because I knew who the Kennedy boys were talking about, Robert and about John. We're talking about, you know, we're talking about some very successful people. So my mom said that in her own way to make us feel good about ourselves and to make us, you know, where our self esteem about ourselves and she always taught us that we wasn't a better or worse than anyone. And so those, that mindset, um, traveled with me in every aspect of my life and every aspect of the involvement in my career now to proof of that is when I got tested and I didn't know I was getting tested as I told you all about this story because what he had observed was a, I'm a person who was truth in it to themselves and a person who had a tremendous amount of influence in the organization that, uand we'll talk about a skillset. I didn't at that time when this man talk to me with this young African American woman in his office, I didn't have to know the, the corporate a title than the big corporate type of foot on time for the business unit did, but not for the entire corporation. And what I learned that is that you don't always have to have the power or title that title in the organization in order to have the biggest impact on the organization. Because of the fact that I stay true to who I am, who I was, and that I didn't compromise and if I can give the people who are, are aspiring and trying to, um, you know, in a corporate position, they're struggling, they don't know where they're not promoting a shameless plug here, mark my book, "How to Play the Game at the Top", a book that's on Amazon, where people can go and read more new and pretty much you're going to hear the same stuff in it, but a lot more detail about what I'm talking to you guys about your career now and how to progress further, which really comes down to being true to yourself. Never ever compromise who you are just for money or just for to get a title or just to fit in, because it may pay off in the short term, but the thing that I can do and look back at all of myexperience in corporate and say that I'm very, very pleased with the the decisions that I made and why I made them because there's nothing worse than feeling like you gained something at the expense of losing something. ZACH: Man, that's amazing and this is really powerful Fenorris. I really appreciate this man. I was going to ask if you had any plugs but you already plugged your book to Amazon bestseller, "How to Play the Game at the Top". And I wanted to reinforce that because as you know, I read it some years ago. Great read. We will have the things that we've referenced in this conversation on during this podcast. We will have all those things and make sure you actually look at our descriptions. You will see a link for how to play the game at the top in the description. So you can go ahead and check that out as well. Fenorris, I just want to thank you for joining us today. FENORRIS: Hey, thank you guys for being able to allow me to be a part of this. I really believe it's a groundbreaking show. More importantly is just it just thankful to you guys to want to put together a podcast like this here and so you guys could be doing a lot of other other things besides trying to educate andmake people aware of the challenge, challenges and opportunities as they grow in starting career. And so I thank God for you guys having an vision to put together a program like this. ZACH: Man. Thank you for Fenorris. We're going to go ahead and take a break. We come back, we'll have it back in the studio. We'll talk about this discussion and then we'll continue on with the show. ADE: That was a dope interview. ZACH: Yeah, I liked it. ADE: Yeah. In my little story at first I thought to myself like, wow, this is a really, really unique story. Like a great journey. Yet, at the same time, so much of it resonated with my own experiences, like even now in the earliest stages of my career, you know? ZACH: Absolutely. I was glad he was able to make the show really, really interesting stories and I hope he comes back. ADE: For sure. Um, OK. So now let's get into our next segment, which, you know, I kind of enjoy. It's called favorite things. It's where we talk about, um, what our favorite things are these days we can, you know, big up yourself a bit. ZACH: Absolutely. OK, well let's go ahead and get started. I'll start first. You didn't invite me to start, but I will start.ADE: The floor is yours.ZACH: Thank you. OK, so yes. So my favorite thing right now has to be mumbo sauce is now listen. So for those who don't know, for all of my southern gentleman and uh, and women in the audience listening, listen, mumbo sauce is like this sweet spicy sauce that originates out of the DMV and yeah. So, um, our favorite cousin, our favorite big cousin, favorite Auntie, she was on First We Feast, which was hot ones hosted by Sean Evans. Shout out Sean Evans, hot ones. All y'all. Anyway, she's on the show and one of the first things she eats is covered in this stuff called mumbo sauce. And so I'm, I'm taking, I'm tasting, I'm, I'm fast forwarding - first off all I did not taste the mumbo sauce - this is when I first heard about the mumbo sauce. Let's be clear. Then I was like, eh, maybe, I don't really know. Whatever, whatever. Cool. So then you know, because the feds always watching on facebook and I see a mumbo sauce and I'm like, what is going on with his mumbo sauce? So then I see a Facebook ad and it literally said, "Taraji P. Henson endorses mumbo sauce on hot ones with Sean Evans. You like Taraji P .Henson, you should buy mumbo sauce. I was like, golly. I mean I was kind of creeped up that it was so on point and that it clearly, it was watching my activities... but at the same time, I was like, well sang. I mean you, you are right. I, I did like Taraji p Henson in that interview and I am a Taraji P Henson Fan. I do like SOS. Let me buy some. So I bought three bottles of this mumbo sauce. I know, right? And I'm on my last bottle, but listen.. Don't judge me - well you can judge me. That's fine. It's delicious. I actually will put up with the scrutiny. It's great. I put it on everything. Anyway, so I got a two for one. So my other favorite thing right now is this upcoming captain America Comic. I love comic books and so there's a new run starting with captain America and it's been written by the Don Ta-nehisi Coates. So those are like my favorite thing is right now. What's up? What you about it? ADE: So first of all it's Ta-nehisi Coates. I just wanted to hit you with the. Well actually, ZACH: Wow. I'm Embarrassed.ADE: I can't let you be out here just like meg league his name. You know ZACH: that's true though because he is a hero of mine. I don't even know how to say his name.. It was a great point. . ADE: All right. Um, that's random by the way. I want you to know that that's like the weirdest. "Oh yeah. By the way, I'm shouting out mumbo sauce for the week." So my two favorite things this week and I don't know why we're sticking to two, but it's probably for the best because I'm indecisive. So currently actually, literally, you know how when you're on the Internet and be like, what's to the left or the right of you to the left of me is this book, I don't know if he can hear it. It's called a children of blood and bone by telling me it. I mean, um, and as a voracious reader, as a long-time lover of the written word, um, I can tell you right now that she could have all of my clients, like she can literally have all of them every last day. Um, you know, why? Because this will, I can write her booty off. I'm reluctant to even say, booty. ZACH: This is a clean show. So keeping going. ADE: Yes my mom may be listening to this. But yeah, like if you're looking for a new literary suggestion, if you need a new book, if you are a consultant or you're traveling for days out the week and you need a book to take on the plane with you, it might really only last you depending on how fast you read two trips, but it's absolutely worth it. I think my second favorite thing is I've been sick this week and anyone who knows me actually noticed that I have a deep and abiding love of, but it's just like sky rocketed to the top of last of the favorite things this week because my word is good but it is so good and I was down for the count but you know, fa. And since your tea really held me down so it doesn't have to things for the week. ZACH: Do you have any shout outs? ADE: Yes. Um, so shout out to us first of all because I feel like we're dope. We put an amazing thing together and even if you know, this is just us talking to ourselves. This is still like one of the dopest projects had been on. Yeah, we put this whole thing together in less than a month. Bask and how amazing that is. ZACH: I feel the exact same way that I was going to be my shout out to like, shout out to us straight up. We've got a team of five and like they're all going to be on the show. They're all gonna be, they're all leading and participating in like heavily involved because it takes a lot to get this machine up and going. It's all. ADE: One more shout out, one more shout out. I have a new nephew in my life, um, because name is Haleem and he is the absolute, like the brightest star in the night sky right now and I'm just so proud and so happy to have him at the moment. ZACH: No, no, that's dope. That's dope. You know what, in fact, let me go ahead and shut out my nieces and nephews. We can go ahead and put them on a shout out to my nephew Aaron and then shout out to my niece Alayna. They are absolutely wonderful. So, uh, yes, that will actually be the Hashtag for this show. #auntieuncle swag. So thank you all for joining us. My name is Zach.ADE: And I'm Ade.BOTH: Peace.