Podcast appearances and mentions of zach well

In this episode of the OnTrack Podcast, we explore the innovative BOM Portal in Altium 365, a cutting-edge tool transforming PCB design and electronic development. Tech Consultant Zach Peterson sits down with Ananth Avva, General Manager at Altium's Cloud Platform, and Damir Khayrutdinov, Product Manager at Altium, to discuss the tool.  Altium's BOM Portal, compared to ActiveBOM, offers a seamless and efficient approach to managing bill of materials (BOM) throughout the product lifecycle. We dive deep into the capabilities and features of the BOM Portal, including its integration with various CAD tools and its role in streamlining design-to-realization processes. Learn from our guests about the trends and challenges in electronics development and how Altium Designer 24's BOM Portal addresses these issues.  Key Highlights Discussion on trends in electronics development Reasons for building the BOM Portal on Altium 365 Challenges in BOM management and how the BOM Portal addresses them Insights into the relationship between ActiveBOM and the BOM Portal, how it works, customer response, future developments, multi-board systems, and the future vision for Altium 365 Resources and Links Follow Ananth Avva and Damir Khayrutdinov on LinkedIn Learn More about BOM Portal Here How to 'Shift Left' and Connect Procurement and Engineering? Altium 365 BOM Portal Step-by-Step BOM Portal Webinar Transcript Zach:  Some of the features that you just mentioned sounds a bit like ActiveBOM in Altium Designer and I think the more experienced Altium Designer users out there will notice this. So, how exactly does this new tool compare with ActiveBOM? Does it replace it or does it complement it? Damir Khayrutdinov: Yeah, it's a good question. ActiveBOM is a BOM tool what was designed to help engineering team release design BOMs with all needed information and capabilities such as adding alternates, line numbers, custom lines, et cetera. And seems it works well based on level of adoption and user feedback. However, it's embedded into the design tool, Altium Designer. Zach: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Altium OnTrack podcast. I'm your host, Zach Peterson. Today, we're talking with Ananth Avva, General Manager of Altium's cloud business and Damir Khayrutdinov, Product Manager at Altium. We're gonna be discussing one of the new features in Altium Designer 24 and that feature is the BOM Portal. I got to see a short demo of it before this episode and so I'm very excited about this new feature and I hope all of you will be as well. Damir and Ananth, thank you so much for joining me today. Ananth Avva: Yeah, likewise. Great to be here, Zach. Zach: So, what are some of the trends and problems that you're seeing in the electronics development space, Ananth? Ananth Avva: Yeah. So, I think the common root cause is the velocity of the actual development process continues to accelerate and the proliferation of electronics as everyone probably listening to the podcast, they're no stranger to that. But I think that's the root cause but the symptoms show up and I would say in three different areas. The first one is, sort of, mapping requirements and intent to the actual design. So, when you start going from functional to physical to actually the layout, are you actually bringing those requirements all the way through, right? The second one, while in the post Covid era, we've seen supply chain, et cetera, settle down. Supply chain, and also just compliance for components 'cause that's still about 40% to 70% of what you're building is a big area of focus especially as we're getting into whether it be geopolitical tensions in the Red Sea, all the way to trying to understand your actual full traceability of where the components coming from down to the fabrication plant. So, that's a very big area of focus, especially for our aero military customers. The third area, I would say, is getting into some of these emerging themes like sustainability and getting down to what is the footprint of what I'm making and 80% of, sort of, the sustainability aspects is done in design. And so, bringing some of those thoughts, especially when you're thinking about your BOM and you're thinking about, sort of, orchestrating your entire supply chain, that's come up and starting to come up, especially with DPP requirements coming in Europe. And lastly, it's the collaboration with manufacturing. So, we deal a lot for obvious reasons with designers and that handoff process and making sure that the manufacturers and the components that they're selecting versus what was in design and then people are moving lockstep. That continues to be a big focus. But all of these four areas are sort of the symptoms but the root cause is, again, just the velocity with which development's happening. Zach: Well, given the velocity that you've mentioned, it sounds like that was part of the motivation behind building a lot of these new features in Altium Designer 24. So, what was the motivation behind building the BOM Portal on Altium 365? Ananth Avva: Yeah, I think with Altium Designer, I mean that's obviously where we have our design audience, but we wanted to build a front end where other folks can come in and start collaborating and very specifically, your component, sort of, manufacturing personnels or even the masses where they're able to actually get that visibility. I think of, sort of, that BOM as the first, sort of, physical manifestation where the design is actually born, right? You're in the design to realization space, that's the first front end that everyone can actually look at and collaborate on. And so, the motivation for doing this in the cloud and basically having this sort of abstraction layer out of AD because one of the key things is, the BOM Portal, while, you know, it's highly functional and highly integrated into Altium Designer, it's mixed CAD. So, we'll actually work with all the CAD tools. And so, we really wanted to make sure that we have that one front end where it's not just for designers but it's also for all of the other satellite professionals that they touch and they're able to come in and collaborate to ensure all the issues that we just talked about in the electronic development process. We have a way to mitigate those risks and have those participants come in and basically get that view and also basically get the ability to edit and collaborate on the design itself. Zach: So, since we're here to learn a bit more about the BOM Portal tool, Damir, maybe you can tell us what are some of the BOM management challenges that you've seen across the industry that inspired your team and the development of this new tool? Damir Khayrutdinov: In addition to the standard challenges and BOM and supply chain management for electronics such as chip shortage and second sourcing, we noticed that the processes and tools used for that are mostly from 90s. Most still use Excel files and emails for that. So, to get the PCB BOM ready for ordering, the procurement team works with exported Excel BOMs. This process typically involves four, five emails with collaboration about three or four contributors who are responsible to make decision. Yeah. So, this takes time to interact and because of the friction happens later in the process, cost of the work, time and money wise, is more expensive. Of course, there are companies who well adopted with POM MRP and the ERP systems, but even the company implemented such systems, the level of its adoption is different. So, we track the cases when engineering use POM PDM, but procurement still works with Excel, shared drives, et cetera. Another common problem is fragmented approach to accessing and analyzing technical specifications, compliance information and supply chain data. Typically, procurement expert quality engineers and compliance specialists have to navigate through multiple platforms to gather necessary details about parts. The result in scattered data, yeah, manage it across different systems, often leading to limited access to all of these team members. And we can talk also about product teams and OEM specifically. For such teams, the BOM management is not finished once the BOM is released. You should be aware of the manufacturability of your released PCB BOM during the end customer warranty period or product production cycle, which might be not just a few weeks or years. So, for such teams, BOM management is an interactive process that is time consuming and error prone due to constantly changing supply chain. For such teams, the manufacturability is a function of a time. So, the release BOMs needs to be constantly monitored. And in order to manage that, most of the teams still use manual processes for that which is not so effective. So, I would highlight these three common challenges which are at across the industry. Zach:Yeah, you mentioned Excel files and emails. I will admit I'm guilty of that one, but I think it's because of the lack of anything better and everybody else does it. So, you're kind of shoehorned into doing this because there just hasn't been anything better really. So, given all of those issues that you brought up, how does BOM Portal help solve some of those challenges? Damir Khayrutdinov: Yeah. In short, the BOM Portal helps to take advantage of rich parts and supply chain information to scrap BOM and identify risks from multiple angels. It might be availability, it might be cost, it might be compliance, second sourcing, et cetera. Next is the collaboration aspect, which is, I would say, one of the core features of the A 365 platform. So, with the BOM Portal, you can get the advantage of constant platform for engineering and procurement team in one, so no exported files without context anymore and you have a common collaboration process in one. And third, I would say that we didn't really use it, but it's a parts watchdog feature which is currently in the closed beta, but it helps to deduce supply chain risk and ensures continuous production by proactively tracking and providing warnings for supply chain issues, prompting timely action to avoid any disruptions. Of course, we still offer parts traceability or we call it very usage which simplifies the identification and assessment for potential absolute issues. So, these three things. Zach: You know, some of the features that you just mentioned sound a bit like ActiveBOM in Altium Designer and I think the more experienced Altium Designer users out there will notice this. So, how exactly does this new tool compare with ActiveBOM? Does it replace it or does it compliment it? Ananth Avva: Yeah, it's a good question. ActiveBOM is a BOM tool what was designed to help engineering team release design BOMs with all needed information and capabilities such as adding alternates, line numbers, custom lines, et cetera. And seems it works well based on level of adoption and user feedback. However, it's embedded into the design tool, Altium Designer. And ActiveBOM has a strong dependency on the design data. So, in order to use it for procurement, you need to share design, all design and provide access to the design tool. Next is that it helps on the design stage but not beyond it. For example, you can create the ordering from multiple PCBs which need to be assembled. It's also not effective to use in a production stage. For example, in order to add additional alternates suggested by your contract manufacturer, you need to release the wall design in ActiveBOM. The BOM Portal is designed to support BOM management in all electronic product lifecycle stage. So, in addition to the generic BOM tool capabilities for scrapping, it includes capabilities need to control obsolescent for the released boards, compliance management and part search capabilities, especially for alternate search. So, it's definitely not just a BOM tool, not just a BOM editor as ActiveBOM is. Zach:So, if we could, let's dig into how the BOM Portal works. Can you make this a bit more tangible for our listeners. Damir Khayrutdinov: As I mentioned, the BOM Portal provides benefits for the different roles and support BOM management in all lifecycle stage. We can start from the early design stage where BOM Portal can speed up the process of prototype BOM scrubbing and preparing it for purchasing. I can share my screen and just share how it works. Zach: So, we're looking at Altium 365 right now and I see a bunch of projects you have on screen. Damir Khayrutdinov: So, I have this proto design. It has just version 1.1. If I open it, it'll open it in a separate tab. I believe you still see it. And here is a viewer, online viewer, which is available in A 365. There is schematic viewer, PCB viewer and of course, bill of material. And as you can see, engineering was focused only on critical parts. So, there is no any part numbers specified for generics such as capacitors or resistors, et cetera. And in order to prepare it for purchasing, we have the capability to create a managed BOM from the design and scrap it without touching of engineering data, which might be critical for some cases. Yeah. So, once I click to create a managed BOM from design, procurement is able to select what ORM should be used. We also support it. And once the bill of material will be created, it'll be stored at the same folder as original design. So, it takes a minute. Yeah. So, we can refresh the page and here is my BOM which I just created. If I click on the original design, you will see that now I have a child BOMs and link to this procurement BOM created from the design. So, let's open this bill of material. And what we see? We see exactly the same bill of material what was created by engineering, but for the part numbers which are not specified, we see this lamp icon which means that exact map is not defined and it's true. We don't have exact part number for this BOM line, but BOM Portal try to analyze all information about this BOM line, about this component, and it has some suggestions. So, if I click on this lamp, you see that BOM Portal suggested multiple parts which has parameters specified in BOM line and they are colored with green. In order to see all parameters, we can switch to the advanced parametric search and we see what data is actually was analyzed and used in order to help engineering work with procurement actually find parts. So, you will see that BOM Portal analyzed designator and description and track that this is capacitor. The capacitance is 100 nanofarad. We detected voltage rating, we tracked the case package and we have suggestions. As a procurement, I will pick up just a component which is in stock with minimum order quantity which is also shared here and in stock. Yeah. I would pick up this one. No, it's not a good because we have not recommended for new design. I will pick up this one and click Use. In this manner I can scrap all my BOM and also, I can even improve it. You see that there is one part which was specified by engineering has obsolete lifecycle state. Maybe it's good for the prototyping because this part is in stock et cetera. But as procurement I will try to find alternate and just notify engineering that there is another component available in the market. And how I will do this and how BOM Portal help me is that we have try alternate search mode which provide alternates specifically found for this original part number and we have confidence core which means that from this information, you can understand how this part is compatible with the original one. So, this is how BOM Portal can speed up the process on BOM scrubbing for proto BOMs. And other case, what I would like to share with you is prepare BOM for production run. For this, I have this bill of material which is available in my- Yeah, I just exported it to Excel file. It has just a few columns, designator, quantity, manufacturer and MPN and some of the BOM lines have alternates defined. So, let's upload this Excel file into the BOM Portal and see how it will work with it. So, one second. Demo version 5. Yeah. Once this BOM file will be uploaded into the BOM Portal, it'll be automatically under the version and revision control as any other managed design, which is also a benefit for data management things. So, I have these BOM file uploaded. I open it in BOM Portal. BOM Portal ask me if there are alternates is defined? I will say yes because we don't know what exact means these lines which means designators. And here is it. So, we enrich. What BOM Portal did? It enriched the data which was available in the original BOM file. You see, the same four columns. But additionally, you can see all data provided by our data provider. So, in my case, I use pro-level subscription with SiliconExpert integration and I can use both of them in my BOM scrubbing. So, you can see that I have two lifecycle columns, one is getting from IHS Markit, another one from SiliconExpert. And for some cases, it's quite useful. For example, for this part, IHS Markit doesn't know about any- There is no any information about lifecycle, but SiliconExpert has it. Another example is with one of the challenges on scribing BOM for production run is adding alternates, is adding alternates to non stop production run on your contract manufacturer. And the BOM Portal has this capability to add alternates from different sources. For example, for this case, we will use alternates defined in my library, which means that it's company approved alternates. So, they were previously tested and approved to be used in my company. So, I will just click on add additional, add alternate online and we'll see all alternates, a little bit for this BOM line for this component. I see alternates from my library and I also see additional alternates which is coming from data providers. So, I will use this one. Next is, that usually, production run is not going for one or multiple BOMs. Yeah, you can have a production run with a thousand of boards and we can check is there any issues related to the production run to the number of production quantity. Yeah. Let's put 10,000 and check what we'll have. In issue step, I see that we have supply chain issues that some of the BOM lines have insufficient stock which might be also a problem for my production run. And how can I fix that? I have favorite suppliers and I see estimated BOM coverage coverage. So, I will just use additional suppliers here and we'll see that some of the problems have gone after that. So, right now, I see that out of stock only one part or insufficient stock only two. So, in this manner, we can scrap and prepare BOM for production run, and once it'll be ready, we can release it. And next, we can do comparison with original BOM files. So, these capabilities, it's not allowed in just in ActiveBOM tool. Yeah. And the last one what I would like to mention is how the BOM Portal can help for obsoleteness teams or quality teams. So, as I mentioned previously, we have this used parts report or parts watchdog, which is currently on beta. But what it can do? So, it grab all parts used in all my PCB BOMs and share risk information in one simple page. So, for example, I can be focused only for the critical parts and... One second. Yeah. I have this filter by component type. So, right now, I see all used parts in my workspace. I can filter out them by, for example, ICs and easily see what the status is for IC components in my workspace, in my products. One I see has discounted lifecycle states, and here, I also see in what projects, so I easily can identify what projects affected by this issue. So, this is how BOM Portal can help and speed up process on BOM scrubbing and help to mitigate supply chain risks. Zach: So, you mentioned earlier one of the very interesting features is grading of alternates or replacements. And I have to be honest, that is something where I have spent a lot of time trying to find either an alternate source through a broker when something is out of stock or just a totally replacement part. And it's really hard to find something that will work sometimes that won't force you to go back in and change the PCB layout before you start producing something. So, I have to ask, are the replacements being graded based on pin compatibility or are there other dimensions that are being used to grade the replacements? Damir Khayrutdinov: So, we utilize the supply chain data and parts data provided by allowed data providers. So, here we currently have Octopart, IHS Markit, SiliconExpert and soon, also Z2Data will be also supported. So, the confidence score provided by Octopart and IHS is just a basic rating from one to zero on how well a component will work as an alternate. SiliconExpert, however, provides a detailed grading system that evaluates component based it on various parameters. For example, rating A means that it's a pin to pin compatible replacement with exact electrical features. So, my answer is that depends on the data providers supported in your workspace, you will be able to use data providers, you will be use data provided by data providers uploaded to your workspace and alternates is also shared by these data providers. So, we have confidence score from our partners. So, it's not a data which was calculated on the file for example. Zach: So, I have to ask what are customers saying about the BOM Portal? Damir Khayrutdinov: One of the comments we have gotten from some customer is that BOM Portal allows them to replace their homegrown systems that needs custom development and maintenance. This shows us that we are really on the right track. Our customers already invested a lot to have their common custom solutions done. Still, this is not their core competency. Here, we are coming with as an electronic focused company with long history of successful software development. Another comment is that they want more meaning that we covered single BOM use case pretty extensively and now people wants to get multi-BOM use cases. We're working on the actively sought part reports I just shared with you and now we started project called Consolidated BOM which will allow users to optimize procurement for a given product, not just a single PCB board. Also, we would like to stress that we are really counting on customers feedback. We are proud to develop solutions to get positive feedback from our customers. It's not to say that we are fully bottom up as we do have a vision where we want to take the product, but we are bottom up enough to give our users flexibility they need. So, please to try BOM Portal and provide feedback so we can take this to the next level. Zach: So, regarding your vision for this tool, what are some of the future developments that are planned for it? Damir Khayrutdinov: The top end request is ability to work on a level of multiple BOMs versus a single board BOM. I already mentioned that we started project called Consolidated BOM. Another area is integration with ERP and POM, which is requested mostly by enterprise guys. And pretty constantly, we are getting requests about BOM review workflow. This is another example where our customers start developing their own solutions as there is nothing flexible enough on the market available. Zach: Just to clarify something, you said multiple BOMs. Would that be for, like, a multi-board system? Damir Khayrutdinov: Yeah. But I would just highlight that there is a case called consolidated BOM for ordering, when procurement expert needs to order parts for multiple BOMs which might be not used in one product. Yeah. You have separate PCBs just needs to be assembled. But another case is multi-board BOM, which is a part of the product. And this is a kind of next thread and it also in our roadmap, but it'll be implemented with a multilevel and multi-PCB BOM approach. Zach: So, I have another question here for Ananth. We've spent a lot of time talking about and learning about the BOM Portal, but, of course, it is part of Altium 365. So, if you could, could you talk about the future vision for Altium 365 more broadly? Ananth Avva: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in the opening of the podcast, we talked about some of the areas of challenge and I think the goal for Altium 365 is to basically bridge the idea to realization processes, right? As evidenced by the BOM Portal, one of the first areas that we're focused on is bringing data and the right data in context. So, bringing the requirements in, so capturing the intent is going to come up here pretty quickly where we're going to have requirements tool that's specifically built for electronics. Those requirements then will automatically not just map into design but also start going into supply chain decisions. So, one of the questions that you had asked, Zach, on, well, is it going to a pin level? If that's a key requirement, we can actually make that as a trigger or a rule in the BOM Portal. And then, the next step is, obviously, then going into EMSS and tightening, sort of, our collaboration layers with EMSS where they can come in and engage. So, I think the first step that we're doing is building the right front end to have the common data layer that traverses, sort of, the decisions that are being made from start to the finish. The second is building a system of engagement on top of that system of record. So, what do I mean by that? All of these co-pilot/suggestion style interfaces that you're seeing with BOM Portal where we're reducing the cognitive load on whether you're a procurement professional or whether you're an engineer and actually ensuring that cognitive load is symmetrical, like, meaning just because I'm going to make a change or an engineer makes a change in the design, having the ability to either put cost constraints on them or vice versa, right, because you had to do something at the PCB level and the procurement team needs to know that now, the overall cost of the particular board has changed. Bringing those types of decision support tools and making this a system of engagement where people are actively collaborating to an outcome as opposed to just, sort of, for the sake of collaboration where you're getting visibility. That's something that we're working on and we're already seeing where for every, sort of, PCB designer that we have or for every two to three PCB designers. We have one non PCB designer coming into 365 and engaging. And this is everywhere from software engineers to mechanical engineers, to component folks, to procurement folks, to manufacturing engineers. So, bringing all those roles and bringing the right context in which they can engage, that's the second piece. And then the last piece is we have the system of record and you have the system of engagement. That's where context based AI applications become incredibly powerful, right? So, obviously, some of the things that we're looking at is, can you look at the data sheet and can you mine, sort of, the parametric information. The data sheet in terms of the quality assurance that Damir said where, yeah, there's third party tools like SiliconExpert that are doing it, but what about the right type of winning combinations, right? So, if you're going into a system level modular design, maybe, as you're building out the BOM and now that we understand the layout map, that we understand the functional requirements, we're now able to actually give you a suggestion on here's the right winning combinations, "that give you the best performance at the best cost" from a particular component manufacturer. So, a lot of what we're doing right now is, sort of, foundational to start building that system of engagement where folks are coming in and servicing the right front ends and reducing the cognitive load. And once we understand the behaviors and once we understand what's happening, we'll obviously bring more "AI based applications" that will continue to accelerate that. Zach: So, this all sounds very exciting and I'm excited to see it all develop. Damir, how can anyone who is interested in all of this learn more about the BOM Portal and try it for themselves? Ananth Avva: Yeah. The best way is try it yourself. Everyone is invited to a free evaluation by going to our BOM Portal webpage and the free three hour is on top of this page. You just put your email and get evaluation. We also have a BOM Portal webinar on January 24th in Europe and on January 25th in the United States where we will talk in greater detail about BOM Portal and give you a demonstration of the use cases we discussed today. So, welcome to our webinar. Zach: Yeah. And anyone who's interested, make sure to take a look at the show notes and you'll see some links where you can learn more about the BOM Portal and access some great resources. Thank you both so much for being here today and discussing this. In my opinion, this is a really exciting feature and I think it's gonna be a great productivity booster for engineering teams. To everyone that's out there listening, we've been talking with Damir Khayrutdinov, Product Manager at Altium, and Ananth Avva, General Manager of Altium's cloud business. Make sure to check out the show notes. You'll find some links to some great resources where you can learn more about the BOM Portal. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to hit the subscribe button and hit the like button. You'll be able to keep up with all of our podcast episodes and tutorials as they come out. And last but not least, don't stop learning, stay on track, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.

Description:  The world's best Lifestyle Engineer, Zach White is sharing how losing his focus and balance ended in burnout and divorce. In his words: Nothing prepared me for the darkest days of my life. While he would never wish a tragedy on anyone, he was thankful for this experience. It forced him to ask bigger and better questions, and he was able to completely transform the way he works and how he lives, and he is going to share his wisdom with us today. Shownotes:  Zach shares his personal story of how losing his focus and balance led to burnout and ultimately, divorce. He reflects on the darkest days of his life and how this experience forced him to ask bigger and better questions, which led to a complete transformation in the way he works and lives. Zach's journey is an inspiring one, and he generously shares his wisdom with us, providing insights into how to achieve balance, focus, and success in both our personal and professional lives. From his personal experiences, Zach has developed a unique approach to coaching, one that is holistic and takes into account all aspects of an individual's life.   In this episode, we discussed:  Losing focus and balance can have serious consequences, including burnout and personal upheaval. Difficult experiences can lead to personal growth and transformation as long as we're willing to ask bigger and better questions. Zach's holistic approach to coaching takes into account all aspects of an individual's life and can help us achieve balance, focus, and success in both our personal and professional lives.   Connect with Zach White:  Website - https://www.thehappyengineerpodcast.com   Podcast - https://plnk.to/the-happy-engineer Zach White on Linkedin   Connect with Sabine Kvenberg:  Sabine Kvenberg on Facebook Sabine Kvenberg on Instagram Sabine Kvenberg on Linkedin Sabine Kvenberg on YouTube BECOME Podpage Sabine Kvenberg Resources   Transcript 00:00:00 Zach: The thing that will stand between you and your dreams is fear. And so we need to step out of our comfort zone, have the courage to face those fears, and take action in our life. So if there's one thing I could tell you, it's to crush comfort and create courage because the life of your dreams will not be found in your comfort zone. And the sooner you embrace that and start living out at the edges of what's possible for you, the faster you're gonna see your life increase in ways you could not even imagine. 00:00:34 Sabine: Hello, my name is Sabine Kvenberg, founder and host of BECOME. The  content will inspire you to reach your aspirations and become the best version of yourself. I feature interviews with successful individuals from various industries, delving into their personal and professional journeys and their strategies to achieve their goals. We have to become the person we are meant to be first. So we can live life, we are destined to live. That means we must overcome challenges and work through difficult times to learn, grow, and become the new more fabulous version of ourselves. I'm so glad that you are here. Let's get on this journey together. 00:01:25 Sabine: I had the pleasure of sitting down with the world's best lifestyle engineer, Zach White. If you want to see results in your life, you have to have the courage to step out of your comfort zone and pair that courage with a proven system of success, what he calls  Lifestyle Engineering. And you can accelerate more than just your career. And this is what I talked with Zach about in our interview. Not only is he sharing his story, but you will learn what it takes to have more balance. Welcome, Zach. I'm so happy to have you as my guest today. 00:02:04 Zach: Oh, Sabine, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.  00:02:09 Sabine: Oh, let's get started by, just, tell us where you are right now. I think you are somewhere in Michigan, is that right? 00:02:19 Zach: Yeah, yeah. You found me sitting in my office, which is in a coworking space here in southwest Michigan. A small lake town. If you're not from the area, you wouldn't know it, but it's called Benton Harbor and just a mile from beautiful Lake Michigan. And I was mentioning  to you before the recording, so we were finally feeling some springtime weather, which for Michiganders, is a big deal, like putting that cloud cover and cold weather behind us, ready for some sunshine and some lake life. So bring it on. 00:02:53 Sabine: Oh, right. All right. And yeah, here, the sun is out, but here in Florida, it is seasonably cold. We are in the 60s, and for, end of March, it's pretty cold. So. But I guess, it all depends on. 00:03:11 Zach: That's right. It's all relative. Uh, 67. I can't wait for 67. That's, we're still a month or two away from 67, Sabine.  00:03:20 Sabine: So Zach, you are a lifestyle engineering coach now, but you started out as an engineer. So how did you go from engineer solving problems to totally shift lifestyle? So how did that happen? 00:03:45 Zach: Yeah, well, I joke, Sabine, that I'm a mechanical engineer by my degrees, but I'm a lifestyle engineer through the school of hard knocks and life lessons. So my actual background is in mechanical engineering. To your comment, I have my bachelor's from Purdue and my masters from U of M, both in mechanical engineering. And I went into Whirlpool Corporation to build my engineering career with big aspirations and big goals. Just like most engineers who come outta college, do wanna make a name for yourself, make an impact, go get those promotions, and build a successful career. And in the journey towards that success, I made some big mistakes and I ended up burning out, finding myself divorced and depressed and disappointed with how my career had gone, but more importantly, how my life fell apart in the process. And it was the recovery from that rock bottom experience where lifestyle engineering was born, asking new questions, finding new ways to succeed, that considered my whole life's success, not just my career. And very happy to say it worked. I had incredible success after, and that's what then led to me doing this full-time as a coach and as a CEO of Oasis of Courage. 00:05:08 Sabine: Oh, fantastic. But one thing that you said, I think is so oftentimes overlooked, and that is the fact that sometimes we have to hit rock bottom to realize what we really ought to do in this world and what gives us the joy and the freedom to live a happy and fulfilled life. So when you started working and you had all the successes and your career took off, what was it that really made you realize the career is not everything? So what was that darkest time in your life that really made you, shall I say, wake up?  00:06:03 Zach: The wake up call moment in anyone's journey is always, you know, very, you know, poignant, easy to remember exactly where I was. And Sabine, I'll tell you the story in my world, at the time, everything was fine. You know, I thought I had it all under control. And I was on a work trip out in Tennessee working at one of the factories where Whirlpool has a manufacturing facility. And Sabine, I came home from the trip and I was tired. It'd been a long trip, working long hours. And I really hadn't talked to my spouse very much while I was gone. And I was expecting to come home, to her being there. And the house was empty. And I walked in and I was confused, thought maybe she went out, you know, I called, she didn't answer. And then I'm walking around the house and I found a note on the table that essentially said, I don't think this is working. I'm ready to get divorced.  00:07:05 Zach: And that moment for me was the wake up call. That's when my entire world came crashing down around me. And the truth is, looking back, Sabine, that I was lying to myself about everything being okay. The signs were there long before that moment, that things were not going well at home. But I had chosen to ignore it. I had chosen to pretend outwardly that everything was okay, and I just put my focus on the things that were working, and I ignored the things that were not working. And as you can imagine, the tension between that just grows and grows. And, you know, eventually to your point, if you don't do something, you hit rock  bottom. And I'll be honest, that was a very, very painful night. I mean, a lot of tears, a lot of heartache, but some powerful things shifted that night in my life. And it began with being honest with myself and being honest with the people who loved me. You know, calling my sister, calling my mom, telling them the truth for the first time that my life was not what I was pretending it was, and I needed help. 00:08:13 Sabine: Wow, what you said was so impactful that number one, we oftentimes, choose not to see the signs. We try to avoid and ignore them because it's uncomfortable.  00:08:32 Zach: Yeah.  00:08:32 Sabine: But if we do more of those, it becomes even more uncomfortable or even worse, like in your case, you found your house empty. What I liked, what you just shared, that for the first time, you were honest, you called your parents and your mom, your sister, and really told them as it was. Isn't it so true sometimes, in family we hide what's going on and because we don't wanna show our weaknesses perhaps? So what was the process once you get really raw and honest? What was the process for you as far as getting through it? 00:09:24 Zach: Grief comes first. You know, I'll be honest, the first few days or weeks, Sabine, were just kind of messy. Very messy. A lot of tears, a lot of confusion. But the relief of telling the truth the way I did, gave me enough weight off of my shoulders to take a next step. And for me, beyond just talking to the people I love, that was going to see a counselor, getting on the calendar, going and working with a professional therapist, that's saying, hey, this is happening. I need help. I'm in a lot of pain. And the grief is real. And you go through these stages of suffering and grief. And that was very real to me. It was very, I mean, physically painful, emotionally painful, spiritually painful to go through. But I think the most important thing was the willingness to sit in that place, to just allow the pain to be present. 00:10:22 Zach: And that's something that I was dodging to your point earlier, Sabine, like pretending that it wasn't there for so long. There was a lot of built up negative energy in my life that needed to be let go. And so that was the first stage, was just a willingness to let my life be a mess for a while, and acknowledge that I wasn't as, you know, well put together as everybody thought I was. But from there, after, you know, you're in that kind of trough place. Your face is grinding against the floor of rock bottom as it were, right? You know, then you stand up and you start to just put one foot in front of the other. And what I tell everybody, who I've coached, who's gone through any form of burnout or suffering or a rock bottom experience like this, or if you're going through it right now, you have to bring the time horizon in a little bit. 00:11:12 Zach: We're not gonna solve the whole thing in one move. We're not gonna go, create the perfect life in one day. Let's zoom, way in. I like to call it drawing smaller circles. Rather than solving for the big equation, let's just solve, for this afternoon, what are we gonna do this afternoon to make sure it's a little bit better than yesterday, to make sure we're not going back to those same patterns or habits that got us stuck in the first place and put one foot in front of the other. And as we build momentum, we can begin to extend that time horizon again and think about bigger goals and longer term dreams again, you know, entering into a new relationship. Again, in my case, all of those things. But at the start, let's just focus on the moment in front of us, right? What's the next thing we need to do in drawing those smaller circles and prioritizing a shorter time horizon because it's so overwhelming. We don't have the cognitive ability to go think about these longer term things. So that's my most important lesson from that time, was look, when you're really under pressure, when you're really overwhelmed, or if your life is completely confusing and falling apart, let's just zoom, way in. You don't need to solve everything. Let's just get today buttoned up the best we can, make the best next decision, and then we can come back to tomorrow. 00:12:33 Sabine: It's so true. Couple things that I got out of what you just shared. Number one, the willingness to sit and let it pass. And also recognize our grieve, our suffering, and not just chopping it away, because if we don't let it out, it just fester and make us perhaps bitter or whatnot, right? So. 00:12:59 Zach: Yeah. 00:12:59 Sabine: Just going through that process is a resolving process and resolving journey. And then you were able to move forward again. And what you did, you got help. And we all need help at one point or another in certain situations.  00:13:21 Sabine: May is stroke awareness month. Life Line Screening can help detect someone's risk of having a stroke or cardiovascular disease. Each year, more than 700,000 people attend one of those screenings for peace of mind or early detection. And I am one of them. You see, my mother passed away from cardiovascular disease and I want to do everything I can to feel safe. So join me and schedule your screening today. To book your appointment, simply click the link in my show notes. 00:14:02 Sabine: Have you ever tried to build your own website, start a newsletter, or build a course and charge for it? Have you ever wanted to make money online but are totally confused by all the different systems you need to have? That's why I use Kajabi. You can build your webpages, blogs, and membership sites. You can create offers, check out pages, and collect money. You can host your videos, you can start your newsletter list, capture emails, start your marketing funnels all in one place. It makes it fun and easy with awesome tutorials and support. Since I've joined Kajabi from the beginning, I have a special affiliate link that I would like to share with you. A 30 day free trial. So nothing to lose, but everything to gain. Just go to my link that's in the show notes, sabinekvenberg.com/resources and we will redirect you to the free trial page. And if you are just starting out and want to get your offer out for sale in just three days, let me help you do that. Visit my webpage, by the way, that I build on Kajabi and apply to making it happen. Now, let's get back to the show. 00:15:33 Sabine: So after you went through that grieving process, and another thing that I liked what you're saying, taking one step at a time, cuz that's another thing I believe a lot of people think, oh, they have to resolve everything either in their personal life or even in business venture. If you have to go through a very challenging situation sometimes, no, you cannot go from A to Z in one step. You have to take steps in between. And those little steps, when was your decision to actually make changes in your life after you got through that grieving process that really led you to become the lifestyle engineer that you are today? 00:16:25 Zach: Yeah, Sabine, there was a point, and I wish I could pinpoint exactly when, but I really can't. It's something that came gradually through the healing journey where I realized that the passion and the ambition inside of me to be successful in my career, to make an impact with my life and in the world through engineering and through, you know, the great mind that God had given me and the the skills that I had and that was still inside me, right? Going through burnout and divorce and depression did not eliminate something that was born inside me and my purpose for life. And I still had that fire there to do something. But right next to the fire for achievement was this fear of going through something like I had gone through already. It's like, there must be a different way to go, achieve something meaningful with my life but not suffer like this. 00:17:26 Zach: And it was that moment where I said, okay, I don't know the answer to that, but I'm unwilling to do nothing. I would rather keep going and try again and fail again than do nothing. I'm more afraid of, you know, getting to the end of my life with regrets than I am afraid of failing again. And so that's when I hired my first coach. I had worked with a therapist on the grief and this idea of recovery and healing, but I knew from other people who I had as mentors and people I respected, that coaching was a powerful catalyst to forward progress and change and making results happen in your life. So I hired a coach and I presented them with this challenge and said, hey, I want success, but I don't want to go through this again. There must be another way. I need help. 00:18:16 Zach: And I began working with a coach and, you know, the rest is history in a way. I went on to five promotions in five years. I doubled my income, I had an incredibly fun time working less hours than I ever had before. And along the way, I captured all these lessons and really distilled it down for the engineering mind because, you know, as an engineer, we think a  bit differently. We approach the world a bit differently. And that became the lifestyle engineering blueprint that we now coach our clients in. But it was honestly just learning as I went, how to do this in a different way. 00:18:50 Sabine:Yeah. And as you said, as we experience, as we learn, we can implement and teach it to others. So how do engineers learn differently and what's the difference between an engineering mind and everybody else's mind? 00:19:08 Zach: Oh, we don't have enough time on this podcast to talk about all of the differences. You know, if you are an engineer, you already understand and appreciate some of this and most people know at least one engineer. And you can point to some of the stereotypes that are common. So let's just, you know, be honest about what these things are. For one, generally speaking, we'll paint with broad brushes here, more introverted, more shy, generally speaking, they see the world in a black and white way. And I'll include myself in this. I used to be this way because we're trained to go find the right answer. And mathematics and science and most of the schooling that we go through is all rooted in learning the principles and applying them to problems in a way that finds the solution. And we end up in this very narrow approach to living where everything has a solution and often it's one right answer. 00:20:03 Zach: Then we come outta college and go into our careers. And it's hard enough to face the reality that there's more than one way to design something or to solve the problem. Then you add on the complexity of all the emotional and social intelligence required to work on these complex cross-disciplinary teams. And it really can be overwhelming for a lot of engineers to adapt to that. On top of that, let's put even one more layer. The engineering mind is trained to go find everything that can break, everything that can go wrong, all the points of failure in every system. That's what we get paid to do. And we wanna take everything to a point of failure in life. It's like, this is the way we think in terms of design. Well, anybody who's in psychology or cognitive behavioral therapy or coaching will tell you, if the thing that you focus on constantly is the negative side, if all you're looking for are points of failure and what can go wrong, that's what you're going to continue to get more of and create, especially in your relationships. And people get frustrated at engineers for always, you know, shutting down their ideas or telling them how things can go wrong or not. Well, let's forgive them in a way cuz it's the only thing we're taught.  00:21:22 Zach: And that creates a lot of problems in our relationships and in our lives as well as in your career development. So that's just naming a couple of obvious ones, Sabine. There's more, but we need to adapt the way we think about career growth and then lifestyle design. This idea of balancing the rest of our lives in the context of those challenges. You know, how do we overcome that in a way that engineers can wrap their heads around, which means systematically in a logical way, in a way that's gonna align with their strengths. Not just go tell an engineer, hey, stop being like an engineer. Like, that doesn't work. You can't just tell somebody to stop being themselves. 00:22:03 Sabine: No, that's so true and I really admire that you tackle that from that perspective, being an engineer. I mean, our two worlds can't be any more far apart because I'm on the total of the spectrum. I'm a creator. You know, I'm a performer. I'm just like. 00:22:26 Zach: Yes. 00:22:27 Sabine: Hey, show me the world, right? And math was never my strong point. I am not getting satisfaction with solving problems. I mean, I do, right? But you know what I'm saying?  00:22:41 Zach: It's  different. It's different.  00:22:42 Sabine: It's just different, right? But as you said, the engineers in this world and even if you are not an engineer, you might be an introvert, you might be a problem solver. That's your mentality, that's your personality. And those people are probably looking for a coach like you who can approach it from that angle. So I like that. 00:23:10 Zach: Yeah, you're right. It's not unique to engineers, that's just a group that I really resonate with. But for example, we have a client in our program right now who works in sales, but her mindset is an analytical one, and she has some of these same qualities in her approach and her background. And you would think, sales, how is it possible to be an introvert and succeed in sales? Well, you'd be amazed, you know, it's not uncommon for someone to end up in a place where they are constantly having to face some limitations, where their personality doesn't serve them in their role. And this is an example where someone says, okay, I really need to overcome these things in order to be successful, even more so than an engineer might. And so, yeah, there's a lot of people who connect with this approach, who may not be in STEM professions. 00:24:01 Sabine: And you also have a podcast called the Happy Engineer Podcast. So tell us about that podcast. Who are your guests and what you're trying to achieve with it? 00:24:15 Zach: Well, the Happy Engineer was named that because at the end of the day, if you get big success in your titles and promotions at paychecks, but you hate your life, then we have not succeeded yet. So I really believe, Sabine, what we're all looking for here is to love the journey towards our dream and our vision. So the Happy Engineer is an entire series of conversations around that idea. How do I build my career to the level that I want, whether that's CTO or just senior engineer, it doesn't matter. But also balance what I love in the rest of my life, to honor the time I want with my family, to take care of my health, to really look at myself as a whole person and not become a victim to some of the cultural challenges of, especially big organizations where the pressure to deliver can be so high and engineers are stressed out.  00:25:09 Zach: Engineers are struggling with dealing with all these demands, especially when you add a spouse and some kids and a mortgage and all these other challenges of living life. So the Happy Engineer Podcast brings guests from engineering, you know, folks who've succeeded at this and are living on the other side of the lessons learned, as well as people from these other disciplines who can help us to address areas where we're not strong. You know, health coaches or mindset coaches, people who can really dig into the areas that an engineer may not explore very often on their own. Because we tend to be drawn to the sciences and we love to listen to tech speak and that kind of thing. So it's a very well-rounded set of conversations because I really do believe we wanna be well-rounded in our success. 00:25:54 Sabine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I go onto podcasts with the wisdom that I can contribute to the audiences and, you know, it's all about that balance, right? And when we are open to listen to the other person or to the other “side,” just in general, it is very important to be open. Otherwise, we are getting so narrow minded, so almost, like the horses with those, what you call it, the sight. 00:26:33 Zach: The blinders. Yeah. 00:26:34 Sabine: The blinders, exactly. And you see it in all areas, you know, of personal and work related politics. Oh, my goodness. If we are not open to listen to others, then we can get really, really stuck.  00:26:49 Zach: No doubt.  00:26:50 Sabine: So, yeah. 00:26:51 Zach: Well, and you are a great role model of this, Sabine. I mean, I love your content. I actually just listened to episode 41 of Become with [Brandon Kumar Sammi]. He was on my podcast as well. And just the power of those conversations and the idea of becoming what this whole show is about, it begins with that openness. If you don't lean into a growth mindset and  an open coachable spirit, then you're gonna miss that opportunity to become the best version of yourself. So I think there's no one better to talk about this than you. 00:27:23 Sabine: Oh, good. Good. So, well maybe I'll… can tell something to your listeners as  well and contribute to your listeners. I would love to, but well, we are out of time. Oh, my goodness. You know, I always like having wonderful conversations. I could go on. 00:27:42 Zach: I know. I know. 00:27:43 Sabine: Forever and ever. So if people want to get in touch with you, what would be the best way? 00:27:51 Zach: Thank you, Sabine. And for what it's worth, I agree, we could go all day. I understand why Joe Rogan and some of these other podcasters have three and four hour long episodes because it's so fun to have these chats. You know, you mentioned the Happy Engineer Podcast already, and if someone out there is listening who wants to hear more from me or get deeper into lifestyle engineering, just wherever you're listening to become, jump over and give a  follow to the Happy Engineer. You'll find us on all the platforms. But if this really resonates for you, maybe you are an engineer or you know one who really needs help with this and is looking for support to build their career and get to the next level, it would be an absolute honor to give you a free coaching session and share with you what we do and how we support people and see if it's a fit to work together. So if that's you, then grab your phone and send a text message right now. The word, Lifestyle. The word Lifestyle, send that to 5-5-4-4-4. It's one of those short codes, really simple, Lifestyle to 5-5-4-4-4. We'll send you the information to get on our calendar. And if it's a fit, we'll get you a free session with me and provide as much value as we can. So it'd be an honor to do that for your listeners, Sabine. 00:29:02 Sabine: Oh, fantastic. And I'll make sure to have that information in our show notes as well. So if there would be one piece of advice that you would give, not only engineers, but just in general, maybe a quote or something like that, what would that be? 00:29:20 Zach: The thing that will stand between you and your dreams is fear. And so we need to step out of our comfort zone, have the courage to face those fears, and take action in your life. So if there's one thing I could tell you, it's crush comfort and create courage because the life of your dreams will not be found in your comfort zone. And the sooner you embrace that and start living out at the edges of what's possible for you, the faster you're gonna see your life increase in ways you could not even imagine. So crush comfort and create courage, that's a decision you'll never regret. 00:30:00 Sabine: Thank you so much. That was just a perfect ending for this podcast, and I wish you all the best and I look forward, having another conversation. 00:30:11 Zach: Thank you so much, Sabine. You're amazing. I appreciate the invitation and blessings to you and your amazing audience. It's been a pleasure. 00:30:18 Sabine: That was my interview. And if you enjoyed it, give us a five star review, leave a comment, and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening. Until I see you again. Always remember, serve from the heart, follow your passion, and live the life you imagine.

Who even are Emily and Zach? Well... listen in to find out. We talk about our favorite tv shows, but that is just the tip of the iceberg in this episode. If you want to learn more about who we are as we share our most private secrets, make sure to give this episode a listen.

Zach chats with Aubrey Blanche, the Director of Equitable Design & Impact at Culture Amp, about re-imagining tech and belonging. She discusses her complicated relationship with race and identity, talks about how to effectively combat diversity fatigue, and much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Aubrey and check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan!Connect with Aubrey on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Visit her personal website.Check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.Struggling with your Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) work? Kanarys—a Black-founded company—has your back. Regardless of where you are on your DEI journey, we arm you with the insights you need now to take action now. From audits to assessments to data-informed strategy, we'd love to be the partner you have been looking for. Email stacey@kanarys.com or learn more at https://www.kanarys.com/employerTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know what we're doing, right? Every single week we're having real talk in a corporate world. And what does that mean? That means we're having authentic conversations that what? Center and do what else? Amplify. Who? Black. And who else? Brown people. I keep on doing this weird call-and-response thing. I guess I'm just really excited. But the point is we're having these conversations, and we typically have them with movers and shakers, and that could be executives to entrepreneurs to social capital investors to activists to elected officials to public servants, authors, you know, whoever. We're talking to everybody. Typically these people are Black and brown, but every now and then we'll have some white or white-presenting folks on the podcast as well, and we're really passionate about that. Our goal is that if you're a Black or brown person or one of the onlys in your workplace that you listen to this and feel affirmed and heard, and if you're not one of those people that you take this opportunity, a rare opportunity, to really hear some frank conversations about, and from the persectives of, Black and brown people about being Black and brown at work, and you can use that information to be a better ally. See what I'm saying? So it helps everybody, and so like I said, every week we have an incredible guest, so let me just put our own collective back at Living Corporate. We've had some incredible guests though, and today's no different. We have Aubrey Blanche. Aubrey Blanche is The Mathpath - that's a math nerd and an empath, which is wild because that's, like, the Dark Side and the Light Side of The Force coming together. She's like a Gray Jedi. Anyway, director of equitable design and impact at Culture Amp and a start-up investor and adviser. Through all of her work, she seeks to question, re-imagine and re-design systems--now, y'all know we're gonna double-click on that in a minute--and practices that surround us to ensure that all people can access equitable opportunities and build a better world. Her work is undergirded--I like that word, "undergirded." Undergirded. Just say that to y'allselves, y'all. Undergirded. Undergirded by her training in social scientific methods and grounded in the fundamental dignity and value of every person. Aubrey, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Aubrey: Hey. Thank you so much for having me. I feel, like, genuinely blown away at the idea that I get to join you, and also your intro makes me want to cry. I just love what you're doing. I love the mission and the vision. And "undergirded" is such a fun word.Zach: It's so great, right? There's certain words that are just really nice to say. "Undergirded." "Plethora."Aubrey: Right? I mean, [I'm a?] deeply over-educated human being, so just occasionally getting to use those silly $17 words that you don't to, but [?].Zach: You don't have to. Erykah Badu once said, "What good do your words do if they don't understand you?" But that's for another conversation, another day. Look, I read your bio, or rather let me be honest--I took out, like, the first 20% of your bio for the sake of this conversation, but what does all of that really mean? Like, what do you actually do?Aubrey: Yeah, what do I do? I feel like what I try to do is crush white supremacy with capitalism, which is confusing conceptually, but really what I think I try to do is harness the privilege that I have and I guess the oppression I've experienced as this very liberal human, and we can talk about what that means, and try to use the privilege that I've had and try to figure out how to scale those out. Like, that's the [?] thing in my soul that I'm trying to do, and right now I happen to do that within the context of technology and investing and finance. What I'm really interested in is learning the rules of systems so that we can begin to evolve those systems so that they begin breaking themselves down where they are harming people.Zach: I like that. I like that a lot. There's a lot of nuance in what you just said, so that's why I'm really excited to get into this. In fact, let's talk a little bit about, like, this moment where we are, right? And before we do that, like, let's zoom in on our interaction about you being on this platform, right?Aubrey: Right. So for folks on the podcast, basically what happened is Zach was awesome and reached out to have me on, and my first sort of response was "Hey, want to be clear that I'm white-passing. I want to make sure that we have sort of BIPOC folks in front of my voice. I'm really happy to speak sort of to my people, but I also want to be respectful of not taking up more space than I need to," and that for me is because--it's really important to me just, like, on a basic, ethical level. Like, we have this moment. It's always been important to listen to those voices, and I've tried to create that space, but it's especially important now because so many people are listening. So I think I'm trying to figure out where my role is in this moment as a woman of color but someone who does have white privilege in so many settings, and then on top of that I'm trans-racially adopted, so there's even more nuance inside that sort of like--Zach: Wow.Aubrey: Yeah, it's a lot.Zach: That is a lot. Okay, so when you say trans-racially adopted, like, your parents are what ethnicity?Aubrey: Yeah. So I'm mixed, and I'm Mexican-American, and as of about a couple weeks ago I found that the other part is Irish. Fun fact - adoption is weird and keeps coming back to you. So my adoptive mother is second-gen American on both sides, Euro-American, and then my adopted father is actually Euro-American and Indigenous. So he's Choctaw and has been an Indigenous legal activist in addition to being sort of corporate counsel, but my dad, what's interesting is despite the fact that I grew up sort of in the Indigenous community and things like that is my dad is also white-passing. So my whole adoptive family looked hella white, but we actually had a really complex sort of racial identity within our family.Zach: I mean--so I think it's important, right? I mean, we're gonna get there in a minute, but... so you operate in this space, right? I know when I first saw your picture I was like--do you watch Steven Universe?Aubrey: I don't.Zach: Okay. So you should check out Steven Universe, 'cause, like, you give me strong Rose Quartz vibes. And it's a compliment. Like, you should look up Rose Quartz. She's great. But you kind of look like a star. Like, you do all these talks and all these things, and so outside looking in it's like--I think you sit in this space that's really interesting. So I'm not gonna profile you, 'cause I've listened to what you actually have to say, but you sit in this space that's, like, you speak about diversity, equity and inclusion, you are white-passing--like, your experience and your identity is much more complex than that, but you sit in this very influential space and it's, like, kind of--what I'm curious about is, considering the space that you've inhabited historically around this work, and when you think about this moment--like, it's kind of like a watershed moment, right? Like, people are really starting to call D&I institutions to account, particularly white women in these spaces and groups. I'm curious, like, is there anything right now that you're more sensitive to? You kind of talked a little bit about you've been thinking about it more. Like, where are you at just emotionally and mentally around this work right now?Aubrey: Yeah. So I think, like, the Overton window of what we can talk about to white people has shifted, and so what I mean by that is my personal philosophy is that I'm someone who was born in a situation that was let's just say much rougher than the one I got adopted into, and something I've always carried with me is--like, the phrase I use to describe it is "Little girls born like me do not sit in rooms and talk to billionaires." It's just a fact. Statistically speaking, there's no reason I should be in the place in the world that I am. And so what I think about is I've moved through these very white supremacist systems, right? Like, I got to survive 'cause I need more SPF than some people, and I've learned how those systems work, but the problem is I always felt really alienated by them because they didn't align with my sense of self, because for a lot of complicated reasons I really have been socialized and racialized as a Latina because of the social context I grew up in, and I didn't actually understand whiteness until I went to college and people stopped being racist to me, and I was like, "Wow, I didn't know that was optional." Truly, and it sounds really silly to someone I think, but just given the specific circumstances of my life that happened. So throughout my 20s as I sort of my grew in my consciousness on this I kind of said, "There are particular spaces I can speak to that people who are darker than me can't," and I own and acknowledge that that is a relic and a fact of a white supremacist system, but it's also still true. So what I try to do, and I will admit imperfectly, which is why I think we need people to keep us accountable to this integrity, is I try to talk to people who are going to listen to me more or I try to say things to shift the Overton window so that when darker people of color say them they receive less abuse. So I recognize when I say something first--and I say first meaning in ths space, not that it's my magical idea, that I'm less likely to just get shit on for it because I look like Karen. And so I think about it like, "Can I be the linebacker for Black women? Can I normalize that idea so that we can make that space less hostile so then I can go, "Now listen to who you should listen to, and let me bring that voice into the room"? So I think that's my dual responsibility, and now because suddenly we're seeing communities actually capable of listening to BIPOC folks without immediately abusing I'm much more careful about where I step back, because I think I have less internal intuition about where the correct action is, and so I'm trying to be more deferential. So that's where I am, but I wouldn't say that I know what I'm doing. I'm figuring it out. Zach: No, that's a really honest answer, and thank you for the context and background. I think your premise, what you started off with in terms of your purpose, is different than most folks. Like, if you ask most people their purpose, like, they're not going to say what their real purpose is, because most folks--painting with a wide brush, but I mean what I'm about to say--most folks' goal is to, by some degree, be white men, right? So, like, their goal is to get as much power as they can. So, like, your whole framing of, like, "I'm gonna block for this other person so that they can have a platform to actually speak, I'm gonna leverage my access and my power and my privilege to then create space for darker-skinned Latinx, for Black women, for other people who are societally, historically in different ways just on their face," no pun intended. Like, that's just not the typical goal, right? So we've talked a little bit about the nuances of your identity and your background, and that's incredible. I'd like to talk more about the concept of being white-presenting while also at the same time being a person of color, right? My challenge, Aubrey, right now is that, like, that "person of color" term is starting to become this, like, junk drawer thing where, like, everybody's a person of color, but we don't really specify or name identity in this work, even now. So, like, that's why with Living Corporate, we don't say "we center marginalized experiences of people of color at work," we say Black and brown because we really want to be explicit with who we're talking about. You know, you brought up being white-presenting. I'd like to hear more about the nuances of, from your perspective, Latinx identity and how you present versus culture and ethnicity, and let's also add, like, the dynamic of how people perceive you.Aubrey: So I think it's something I think about a lot, and I want to bring in another piece of my identity that's been really helpful for me in figuring this stuff out, which is I'm also a queer person. I'm, like, bisexual or pansexual or--I don't know, whatever's something that's definitely not definitely gay and not definitely straight, and I don't really think about it much harder than that, but I have a lot of things that are, like, queer signifiers in terms of my identity but, like, could also just be confused for [alt?] straight people. So again, most of my identities are invisible and liminal, and the way that I think about it is that we talk about that identity construction is a process, and so I can't change that, like, I didn't grow up in a Latin family, for example, and I would never lie about that. Something that was really interesting to me was--I have a friend who's Indigenous who gave me a framework for thinking about this because I've struggled with my legitimacy as, like, part of the Latinx community or how do I relate to this label, "people of color"? I have a complicated set of feelings with that language but think it can be useful in terms of identifying a collective. For me it was really about who I am, and my identity is actually not something that can be challenged. The fact is, right, my lineage comes from people in Mexico, but I also can acknowledge that I have both colonizer and colonized in my DNA, and that is something [I have to?] deal with, but the thing that a friend of mine said that gave me the legitimacy that my identity is real is he said, "I can't accept that the fact that we are pale means we are no longer from our ancestors, otherwise they would have been right that they could [BLEEP] the indigeniety out of us." And that, like, is probably pretty harsh, but for me I was like, "Yeah, you're right. There's an energy. There's a spirit. There's a culture." Now, I, for my own well-being did need to be put in a different family than the one I was originally born into. I've had to connect with and sort of become a part of my culture as an adult, so I've had a little bit of a different experience because of what was important for me. And so I think there's that, but I think to pretend, like, my experience in terms of economics, in terms of the way that I have experienced racism and racialization, are meaningfully different than most or a big portion of the Latinx community, and I think for me that tells me what my role should be. So I'm grateful for the folks who, like, welcome me into the community and don't do the, like, "You're not legitimate 'cause you have a different story," a story that also understands--here's a fun fact - my adoptive mother is the most incredible person I've ever met, absolutely saved my life, and also we know that women of the dominant race, you know, bringing children from the colonized race into their family is [?]. Like, both of those things are true, and so for me I say because I have this almost armor in the systems we live in, my role is to listen to my community and advocate to the majority for it because I can be a translator, because I can move between, and so rather than seeing my ability to play with those systems of oppressions as questions about my legitimacy, I relate to them as in they give me a special role for my activism in the same way I think each of us have a special role in the way that we bring our activism to life in line with our purpose and our unique privileges and oppressions. So yeah, that was really deep for you, but that's my honest answer, and I think I try to hold the humility that, like, I've definitely [BLEEP] up, right? I've definitely done things that were wrong, but I try to surround myself with people who tell me that when it's happening so I can at least try to minimize the way that, you know, my white fragility or my internalized racism or any other -isms aren't impacting the people around me.Zach: I mean, you out here just casually dropping wild bombs. You're doing a phenomenal job. You should continue on this path. Like, stay here. So let's talk a little bit about the culture summit in 2019 that you were at a guest speaker, a keynote speaker [at,] and you talked about diversity fatigue in tech, right? So it's interesting--we're going to continue to nail on this the next few questions, but I feel as if--so the majority has had to be aware or care about Black people for... let's see here, has it been, like, three months? Two-and-a-half months? Like, it's been a handful of months. Like, it hasn't been that long, and people are already talking about being tired. So, like, I'm curious about when you think about the concept of diversity fatigue with, like, white leaders, and especially as you think about it at an organizational level, like, what have you seen work well to manage diversity fatigue?Aubrey: Yeah. I think the thing about it--and this really relates to this idea that I say a lot, which is, like, [BLEEP] D&I, and what I don't actually mean is, like [BLEEP] the goal, and I think they're actually related things. People are tired. Like, I want to sit there and be like, "How dare you get tired?" But I understand how the human nervous system works, so I have to, like, deal with that as a real constraint. But I feel like diversity fatigue is partially happening because everybody's had the same ten diversity talks for five years. They, like, put some money into branding and putting a Black face on their website, and then threw their hands up and said, "Why isn't racism done?" And so when you describe it that way you're like, "Oh, yeah, that was never going to work in the first place." So I think the solution to diversity fatigue, rather than us, like, yelling at people who are tired, which is just going to make them turn off, and I, like, hold in my heart the frustration that we have to do this, right, because people are tired. They've done enough. But again, philosophical versus practical rationalism there. I think it's this move to equitable design that actually I think fights diversity fatigue, because what are people tired of? They're tired of being lectured at. They're tired of not doing. So instead of saying, "We care about D&I," my response is "If you don't have a budget and you don't have a time allocation, I don't care and you don't count," 'cause I'm sorry, your caring didn't help anyone. And that's what equitable design is, right? It's about what saying "What is my plan? What is my process? What is my data about what's broken and what is my idea and my action about how we'll try to fix it?" And when you go with that methodology, suddenly everybody gets a job. So maybe it's--I'm speaking about Culture Amp in this exact moment, our programs, right? Our Black employees' job right now is to attend the mental health program we're offering for them and to take care of themselves. That is their job.Zach: That is so healthy.Aubrey: Right? Like, that is your job right now. In our company anti-racism strategy, our Black [campers?], your job is to take care of yourself. We've made it clear. We've brought in experts. My job is to build the corporate strategy, you know? Our CEO's job is to fully fund the plan. This equitable design idea gives everyone a job, and it's hard to get fatigued with something when you've given people, like, little win breadcrumbs along the way. So I'm not [perfect?], and if folks want to they can check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan online. We didn't just publish the commitment, we published the operating plan, and at the end of this sort of six-month cycle we'll provide an update for folks because accountability matters. It's real. Cultureamp.com/antiracism if you want to check it out. The pillars are easy, which is support and care, accountability, education, and then access. So for me that's what equitable design is. It's everyone taking a look at the actions that they're already taking in their day and going, "How can I design this to create a more equitable impact?" So maybe you're giving a career coaching to that friend of a friend's kid. Why don't you ask that student to find an underrepresented classmate who you're also gonna give a career coaching conversation to? I'm telling you. I did it last month. When you read a book written by a Black woman, why don't you make sure you go online and write a review for it, because then the algorithm knows that people engage with that book. Right? It's not about always--although certainly if you want to donate to the movement for Black lives and everything I vehemently support you. I think people mistake that, like, activism, that anti-racism, that D&I is something separate from what they're already doing as opposed to a slight edit of the things they're doing. So that's how you overcome fatigue, and I'm totally fine if you as an ally--like, you just did that coaching conversation with someone who would not have had access to an executive before? Like, I'm chill if you pat yourself on the back for that. Go ahead. Like, I know, "ally cookies" or whatever, but if you want to self-high five or you want to tell another one of your friends who isn't marginalized from that group, like, "I did a good thing," and you want a high five from another white person, fine. Cool. If it keeps you motivated and it gets you to do the next 10 things over the next 10 and 100 years, then I'm fully supportive of that. So I guess that's where it is. Like, we fight diversity fatigue by doing things consistently that actually work. Zach: I feel like a large part of this work is massaging white discomfort or trying to figure out ways to, like, Jedi mind trick white folks into caring about Black and brown people. And, like, I hear what you're doing at Culture Amp. The link will be in the show notes, 'cause I just looked at it and it's fire. So it's worth, and I also shared it with a couple of mentors, but I'd like to get your reaction to what I just said and, like, if you agree with that, then, like, is that tenable in today's climate?Aubrey: That's such a good question. I was a little quiet because I was like, "Is it, like, 60% or 80% of the work?" Right? No, I think it absolutely is, and it's the reason that I choose to do this work, because I think something that people don't talk about enough--and I talk about in some communities that I'm building--us white-passing folks are the tactical weapons to solve this particular problem, right? Like, I don't just, like, code switch, although I do that too. I literally identity switch at work minute by minute because I have the unique ability to, like, feel both sides of the coin 'cause I've lived both sides of them, so that's actually a lot of the reason I do the work I do, because I know how much of this is, like, managing white discomfort, and frankly, my face partially manages white discomfort to have discussions about racism and white supremacy. So I think that's true. Now, your next question is really important. Is it tenable or sustainable? I have a complex answer to that. So philosophically my answer to you is no. My deeply practical, science lady answer is it's not an avoidable problem in the short term. So this is a weird theory I'm gonna give you, and it has to do with drug addiction, but I think it's relevant for anti-racism work. So here's a theory I've never spoken online before. So there's something really fascinating about drugs and how they work on the brain, which is that the dosage and the frequency that they hit the brain completely changes the brain's response to it. So, like, small amounts over time create resistance. Large amounts at once tend to cause addiction. I'm vastly oversimplifying, but just work with me. So I'll say people who experience racism--not people of color, but people who experience racism, we basically have been given doses of racial stress throughout our lives, so we now have resilience to it. I'm nto saying it's good. I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm just saying it's sort of a descriptive fact of the world. So white people, we basically have to dose them with enough racial stress in the right ratios at the right time to get them to be able to have these conversations, because what the research is telling us is white fragility is actually, like, people's brains perceiving they're in danger when they're in absolutely no danger whatsoever. Like, that's neuroscience. So philosophically I'm like, "Yeah, it's not sustainable," but we have to think about ways to give people experience through racial stress, white people specifically, so that they're resilient and can have the conversations, and I think that's the process that's happening right now in a broader cultural sense is that white people--I mean, have you seen the New York Times Bestseller list? It looks like my bookshelf. [?] on one of my shelves called "What White America's Reading." So what I'm saying is I think we're in a moment where white people are being dosed with racial stress in a way that they never have been, and so I am saying that, like, we're still probably going to have another--I don't know, I don't want to put a timeline on it. That's a terrible statistician thing to do, but I do think it will change because more white people are educating themselves, and even, like, white people that are in my family that I've never seen talk about racial justice before are, like, texting me and asking me questions. So, like, I'm really hopeful. I know how the 17 million different ways this could go sideways, but I have to hold onto that hope because that's what motivates me to push so hard right now. So I think that there's a real chance that there's enough white people who are like, "Oh, I get some rules now, and I at least know to shut up and listen," that we could build a coalition that's big enough to actually create fundamental structural change. Like, I have to believe that's true because that's what I spend all of my time pushing for.Zach: Right. I mean, I struggle with the ways that this space plays with language. I don't know, like, to a certain extent, Aubrey, like, the language itself becomes like, this test and, like, just becomes very classist, and it becomes really exclusionary, because we're talking in these very, like, esoteric terms that kind of mean whatever, right, and we write long Medium posts about this versus that, but at that same time a lot of folks are still using equity and equality interchangeably. So we really don't understand--when I say we I mean, like, just the common person, not even a D&I expert but just, like, the common person. I do think a word though, when we talk about this space and we talk about achieving belonging at work is, like, redistributing organizational power. I don't often hear the word "power," like, really employed in conversations, particularly around Black engagement, brown people. I don't hear that word. Have you thought about that? Is that significant to you at all?Aubrey: I think I want to add another word in, 'cause I agree with you, right? Getting really esoteric about language, it excludes people who haven't had those discussions about those specific subtle differences. I talk about equity. I actually don't really use the word equality. I don't think about equality that much.Zach: I don't either, but people be throwing--I've seen it. I've seen it, like, some big brands have used the word equality. I'm like, "Why are we--"Aubrey: I'll just give my particular view, and I want to do this without, like, throwing shade, but for me I tend to see people use equality when they're familiar with a lot of the, like, deep social justice theories, because they're articulating the outcome, and equality is the outcome of the process of equity, and the process of equity, by literal definition, is about redistributing power and opportunity, at least in the way that I perceive it. I think the other term that we have to talk about or that I think about a lot, and I can't believe I work at a place where I have, like, advanced, deep conversations with executives about this, is [?] collective organizational justice. I think justice is helpful because there's--I just learned a new type of justice, which is, like, my favorite fact ever, but thinking about, like, what does procedural justice look like, right? Equitable design creates processes that create procedural justice. I think about testimonial justice. So how do I make sure that people's stories have the space to be told in the ways that they need to to respect human dignity and opportunity? And so I think redistributing organizational power is at the core of what I do, so really what I'm doing all day, whether I'm writing a corporate strategy or thinking about what hat I need to wear in a particular conversation, is I'm doing a power analysis of the situation. Like, a good example of this, and I'm gonna put this out there, when I think about power and systemic power, right, one of the most abusive things that exists that most D&I leaders aren't even talking about are forced arbitration agreements. You have just [?] or also class action rights. So by including that in your employment contract to all of the CEOs and leaders listening, what you are saying is "[BLEEP] you and your power. You have absolutely no recourse that is fair if we mess up and harm you," and I truly believe that that's true, because what you're doing is stripping that individual of the way that they might balance their power against the power of a corporation with backers, and that's even ignoring the racial power dynamics or the ableist power dynamics there. So I think we would be so much better served if we talked about power, but then the other important thing I want to bring in--and I realize it's your thing, but I'm gonna ask you a question, which is I don't think that people understand the difference between power with and power over, and it relates to [?] earlier where I almost laughed--not at you, but you said, like, "You're giving up power," and I almost laughed because I don't think by creating space for people I'm giving up power, because my definition of power is "power with," so I believe that when I move out of a particular space, I am gaining power because the collective is gaining power and I'm a part of that collective.Zach: But, see, in that though there's, like, this--I don't know. You have to have a different mindset and premise that you're operating from to even see that as power though, right? Because most people don't--it's a zero-sum game. There's also, like, a very capitalistic mindset to it too. So if you heavily prescribe to historically oppressive systems and you're not necessarily, like--you don't think in communal terms or frames, then you're not going to see it that way. I agree with you though that, like, the idea of power with and power over is--and it's funny, because I didn't know that's what you were going to say. I didn't know that that's what that meant in that context. I thought you meant, like, power with being like--I don't know, I interpreted it differently. I think about the fact that a lot of people don't consider the fact that, like, even if they aren't high in an organization, they still have power by way of their whiteness, and that's not a theoretical power. Like, it's a real power. As an example, let's pretend you and I work at Culture Amp and we are a part of the same team. We have the same job. In fact, I may be senior to you in the organization. The reality is, like, if you wanted to, you could just share a couple of points of feedback to other people around me and I could be fired. Not at Culture Amp, but you know what I mean. You have the societal--you have advantages to where if you say, "You know what? I just don't think Zach is really cutting it," or "I don't really think Zach is that bright," or "I don't think" whatever or "Zach makes me feel uncomfortable" or whatever the case is, right, and so what was a struggle for me is when we talk about power, yes, we're talking about, like, the white executives, or just executives period, like, people who are in positions of organizational authority, but also the people who are not in organizational authority who still can harm Black and brown people who should, on paper, be protected, even by the very pessimistic and harmful rules that that organization has created for its own leadership. Like, they still don't really even participate or benefit from those protections because of the color of their skin or because of a disability or whatever the case may be, you know what I mean?Aubrey: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, and I think that's actually something we don't teach people. I think it's, like, American culture in general is very aggressive. Like, a lot of our cultural values are about control, but we don't actually have a dialogue about it. So those of us on the bottom end of the distribution in any context tend to talk about it, but the people at the top don't, and so yeah, I think people--also because we're in this sort of capitalistic society. I say that as if I'm, like--capitalism is like traffic. I don't like it, but I have to be in it. I got that from Nicole Sanchez. I want to give her a shout-out. She's brilliant. I can only say that she's someone who has guided me and taught me, and I appreciate her wisdom, and I don't even have time to describe how much I think she's great, but I think that's it, that people don't understand power. And also I think there's this weird game in--I think it's everywhere, but, like, American culture lies about it, where the thing is people actually, like, crave power and status, but they have to lie about wanting it, and it comes from our whole lie about, like, "Classes don't exist in America," even though they obviously do. "We're not a classist system." Yeah, we are. I've been on every rung of it. Trust me, I know. At different points in my life.Zach: Right. Let's talk a little bit about--part of your bio I read included the concept of re-imagining systems, right? So I've had on a few guests, and many of them believe that this is a watershed moment for, quote-unquote, D&I, HR culture, like, that whole space. Do you think there's any radical re-imagining that needs to happen today or that really should have happened a while ago but is certainly, like, further mobilized by this moment?Aubrey: Absolutely. I mean, like, the thing is the phrase--it's been repeated to me, like, every week, like, "Never waste a good crisis." Well, what I mean is don't waste the attention on these problems, because attention is what can get you the solutions. So yeah, do I think it's a watershed? Gosh, I hope so. I hope that companies stop doing unconscious training and we have honest conversations about the fact that it was conscious design decisions in organizations that create intentional discrimination and exclusion. I've been saying that to everyone with a C-level title I can talk to. If you're like, "Unconscious bias," I'm like, "It was never unconscious bias. You were just too fragile to hear it. It was conscious failures of leadership."Zach: Listen... I'll never forget--this was some years ago--I was talking to a leader about... and it was literally on my way out, 'cause I left, and I made a risk log as I was leaving. I said, "These are just things you need to know about the project we was on and the people on your team. Here are things that would help you if you just considered the risks." Got on the phone. I had already resigned, so, like, it was, like, my last week, right? So then we're talking and she's like... one of the risk ops on there was--I literally made it so soft. I said "potential unconscious bias," and her response was "I've never had a situation where I've been unconsciously bias." And I said, "Well, by the very nature of the concept you wouldn't know if you had been unconsciously bias, 'cause it's unconscious." So it's wild when you think about, like, the multiple levels of grace and outs that white people provide themselves through diversity and inclusion work. It's just not to me about justice, not about equity, really it's not about Black and brown people at all, it's just about shoring up power and control while kind of, like, protecting yourselves from litigious risk, right? But it's not real.Aubrey: You know what, Zach? You just said the word "risk," and I want to one, yes, +1,000 you, and I want to talk about the way that risk can be re-imagined, and it's a thing I've been saying to lawyers and executives, not just at Culture Amp. Like I said, literally to anyone who will listen, because I figure I have my, like, Hamilton, my [?] energy about this, like, how much [?] can we get in this moment? Which is that we can decide that risk means the company losing business because we have to fire an executive who's an abusive [BLEEP]. Like, violations of human dignity are a risk we cannot bear, and we simply choose, when we identify abusers, to remove them out of our organizations. Like, that's a choice that people can make about the definition of risk. And frankly, even if you're talking in capitalistic terms, if you think about how much companies spend on, like, external legal firms when they get sued for discrimation, it is so much cheaper to fire an executive and hire a new one. Or anyone in the organization, right? If they're not an executive they're even less financially, you know, sort of creating return for the business. So again I go back to this idea of re-imagining. Let's take the words and the concepts and just ask the basic question - "Do we have to do it this way? Is there a better way?" A company could say, "We value people being treated well because we know that treating you well equals better cognition, which equals more innovation, which in this economy, in our business, equals more dollars and revenue." We can choose to act as if that is true, and that choice and that action is what builds the world in which it is true. So I'm saying this, like, I live in an industry where everyone's like, "We're changing the world." I'm like, "You're shooting a rocket into space. Someone did that already." Not to diminish that it's an incredible feat of engineering to get a rocket into space. It's incredible, but it's actually less incredible than being like, "Maybe we should treat our employees like full humans who are deserving of dignity." Like, that doesn't seem that bananas to me.Zach: Well, it doesn't though because you're rejecting white supremacy and patriarchy, like, full-stop.Aubrey: Because it's lame and it diminishes--[?] I could drive, like, what, a Lamborghini because I look white? Like, my soul is not better off. Other beings aren't better off. Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but white supremacy diminishes everyone, even those of us who benefit from it. Obviously those of us who benefit should do more work full-stop.Zach: Right. I feel you. I also think it's wack, but that's the reason. So what about this time right now scares you, Aubrey, mathpath, white-presenting woman, complex background. Like, is there anything right now that you feel more in the spotlight or more pressured?Aubrey: The thing that I'm, like, deeply afraid of in this moment, to be specific, is I know what the United States does to people who don't identify as white in history, and I'm afraid that white America won't take the signals that we're deep down the road to genocide seriously enough until we all start dying in higher numbers. That is actually what I'm afraid of, that white people don't think it's urgent enough to burn [BLEEP] down over, because the fact is, like, there are children in cages. This has been happening forever. We have police forces gunning down innocent civilians of all colors, although we know some communities experience that disproportionately. So what scares me? People wanting to lull themselves into a sense of security because they want the world to be better than it is.Zach: Yeah, it's scary. I think about where we are right now and just the death count because of COVID-19, and I think the fact that "defund the police" is still becoming such a--people are still pushing back so hard. I say, "Y'all, the data's right here. They're not solving crime. They're bleeding communities dry because the budgets are way too hard. We are underserved in these other service areas." And yet that's still, like, a radical, crazy idea. We're still pushing back against, like, the idea of reparations. Folks are still sending kids to school, right now, in the middle of a pandemic. Like you said, kids in cages. You're right. It's scary because--I don't know. There's a certain level of awareness that's been really cool to see. Kind of weird, to be frank. As a Black person it's kind of strange. But at the same time I'm looking everything and I'm just like, "Yo, this is--" Just talking about the pandemic alone, like, we haven't even hit the second wave, and so it's just like, "What are we doing?" So I hear you, that's a fear of mine too.Aubrey: That was the honest answer. It wasn't an upper, but [?] all of these things are under people's control, to pay attention, to advocate [?], and that's what I was going to link it to. Like, if that's not the world you want to see, refuse to live in it.Zach: Right, no, 100%. Okay, so let's wrap it up on this one. If you had to give three things executive leaders should be keeping in mind when it comes to engaging and retaining Black talent specifically, and in general a more socially conscious workforce--you think about Gen Z--like, what would those three things be?Aubrey: #1: You need to go to therapy to deal with your own self-esteem, control and power issues. They will absolutely come out in the workplace. #2: You must educate youreslf, and the Google machine is an incredible resource.Zach: And it's free.Aubrey: Free! There are so many people from Gen Z and the Black community that have put their thoughts and life experiences online you do not have to go bother someone who works with you. #3: What you value is not what they value, and they are coming to power. You need to learn how to gracefully evolve with the world. Those would be my most heartfelt pieces of advice to make what is an inevitable transition something that you can participate in and bring into the world as opposed to something you can fight and that will be painful.Zach: That's something that just kind of happens to you, 'cause it's going to happen, right?Aubrey: I mean, like, [?] is destiny. We know where this is going, so you can either be a part of that change and come into that new world or you can kick and scream, but it's coming, and it can either be fun or not fun, and that's really up to you.Zach: I mean, first of all, this has been fire. We haven't done sound effects in a while, but I still have them. Sound Man gonna put 'em in right here. And a Flex bomb too. There you go. Okay. So this has been incredible. You know what? I'm calling it right here. Aubrey Blanche, you are a friend of the show. Culture Amp, y'all are welcome here any time. This is not an ad. Culture Amp, what's up?Aubrey: Thank you for creating this space. I'm really grateful for this space to get to unpack these things. I guess my hope is other folks who have some life stories similar to mine get some wisdom and inspiration out of it so that they can do something that makes the world more incredible. So thank you so much for creating this space. I'm really grateful.Zach: Look, I appreciate you. This is great. Y'all, this has been Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. You know what we do. We have these conversations every single Tuesday, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips, and on Saturdays we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger. So we have, like, a whole network really on one platform. You just have to check in when you check in, okay? But look, that's been us. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up. I'm not gonna go through all the domains. We got all of 'em except for livingcorporate.com. We have all the other ones, so just type us in and you'll see us over there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Aubrey Blanche, leader, mover, shaker. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach chats with award-winning marketing professional and author Frederick Joseph about marketing, white supremacy, and capitalism in this wide-ranging interview. Frederick speaks a bit about the nuances of white supremacy, particularly its function in the space that he inhabits, touches on his upcoming book The Black Friend, and so much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Frederick - you can pre-order The Black Friend on a variety of platforms!Connect with Frederick on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. You can find out more about (and pre-order!) his upcoming book, The Black Friend, on a variety of platforms.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we're doing. Every single week we're having a really good conversation, or I would think it's a pretty good conversation--yeah, your feedback says they're pretty good conversations--insightful discussions, real talk in a corporate world, with Black and brown influencers, thought leaders, elected officials, executives, entrepreneurs, social influencers, activists, you know, professors, educators, public servants, and I'm just really proud of this platform. I think we're in a point of time where people are really starved for content that centers and amplifies marginalized or historically oppressed voices and experiences, and Living Corporate has been doing that for over two years, and we've been doing that by having conversations every single week with the aforementioned folks that I just shared, and this week is no different because we actually have an incredible guest, someone actually that I really just met personally, but I've been following his work for a while - Frederick T. Joseph. Frederick is an award-winning marketing professional, activist, philanthropist, and author of an upcoming highly anticipated book "The Black Friend" with over 10 years of marketing experience, and a Forbes Under 30 list maker for Marketing and Advertising. He is also the sole creator of the largest GoFundMe campaign in history, the #BlackPantherChallenge, which ultimately generated over $43 million dollars in earned advertising and media for Disney and raised over $950K and allowed more than 75,000 children worldwide to see 'Black Panther’ for free. So I don't know if y'all remember, like, when the kids, you know, like, he was dancing on the [table], and he was like, "Ayyyyye." Like, that's part of that--you know, that was this person that we're about to talk to. Anyway, so he is also the creator of the largest individual COVID-19 support effort, the #RentRelief campaign, which has raised over $1 million dollars. Frederick has been honored as the 2018 Comic-Con Humanitarian of the Year award and a member of the 2018 Root 100 list of Most Influential African Americans. He was also a national surrogate for the Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders campaigns. Frederick consistently writes about marketing, culture, and politics for the Huffington Post, USA Today, NowThisNews, The Independent, amongst others, and is a current contributor at AdWeek. Fred, welcome to the show, man.Frederick: What's going on, man? It's a pleasure to be here, and I should've definitely sent you a shorter bio, but I appreciate you showing the love though.Zach: Nah, it's cool. I mean, you got, like, a short Iliad. I wanted to make sure I give it just due. Not a simple question - how are you doing these days?Frederick: Man... you know, life is what it is. I think that, you know, I'm Black in America. That's how I'm doing. How about you?Zach: Exactly. I think it's interesting too. I've had folks ask me how I'm doing. "I can't imagine how you feel. And I try to explain to folks, you know, the reality is I don't feel any better or worse than I do on most days, you know what I mean?Frederick: Yeah. I mean, that's the reality of it. I'm in the exact same position as you, man.Zach: You know what I mean? I'm Black in America. I'm conscious of the way that this country and this world is set up to be, largely against me even existing. So it's interesting though that we're in this point I think where we're seeing such massive uprisings, and white people are really leaning in. Like, I just saw--so we're recording this on July 26th, and so just last night I just saw protests in Portland, right, and they're, like, screaming "Black Lives Matter," and it's a lot of people out there, and it's a lot of people that are not us out there.Frederick: Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting. Definitely in some of the whitest places in the country we're seeing that.Zach: Well, let's do this. Let's get into it, man. Why marketing? Why is marketing the space you chose to engage as a career? Like, I've seen what you're doing in the space, but I'm curious, like, what got you there.Frederick: Um, it was the only space that made sense. I was on the trajectory of becoming an attorney. I think that's, like, kind of, for a lot of Black families if you become an attorney, a doctor, a [?], so on and so forth, you've made it, but for me I was, you know, the first one to go to college really, and when I went I had all these passions and interests from music to writing to art, so on and so forth, and I was trying to actually figure out what could I incorporate all of my interests into, and I realized that marketing, when done well, is really just story-telling, right? And to be a great marketer you have to be multi-faceted. So it just kind of made sense to me.Zach: And to your point about being multi-faceted, as I read your bio, right, you have a lot of things going on. Like, talk to me about how that space lent itself into the book that you're working on.Frederick: Yeah. So that's been interesting because when you're a marketer--like, I'm of the firm belief that every single thing in this world is driven by marketing, driven by branding and advertising, right? Like, you know, whether it be Trump or Obama or some of the worst people in history, it was just a matter of how their story was told and how they branded themselves, right? And that's just the nature of how that works, you know? You go see a movie, you listen to an album, you buy food all based on how somebody was able to make you believe in it. So for me in terms of my book coming out, it's a really interesting thing because all I'm really doing in the book is trying to market to people who are young, like, as to why they should reassess race and, you know, essentially work towards being anti-racist, and now I'm partnering with my publisher to figure out the actual marketing campaign for "How do you make young people be anti-racist?" You know? [laughs] So yeah, it's been interesting.Zach: Let's talk about white supremacy and how it functions in marketing even now. When people talk about white supremacy, often times we think about KKK, burning crosses, hard R 'N' word, but can we talk a little bit about, like, the nuances of white supremacy and its function in, like, the space that you inhabit, which is largely marketing?Frederick: Yeah. So I'm actually happy that's something you want to talk about, because as a matter of fact that's what my book is about, right? People don't understand that white supremacy and racism are so nuanced they exist in every facet of what we do on a daily basis, from something as simple as an interaction on an elevator, right? Like, it's me getting in the elevator in my building where I pay my rent, and people assume that I'm a delivery person, though I've lived here for over a year. In the workplace, and specifically in marketing, I actually think is one of the industries in which racism and white supremacy are most prevalent because it dictates what we see and what we ingest, right, like, as humans. So often times, I mean, marketing as an industry and advertising are extremely white. I think the numbers, if I remember correctly, was, like, 75% white people. So what does that mean for what you end up seeing, right? It's like... let's take Black Panther as a really good example. When I looked at the marketing team for Black Panther, this, like, super pro-Black, afro-futuristic content, the entire marketing team that worked on it from Disney that was, like, on their website was white. [laughs] And while that did do very well obviously, it's like... how is it that we don't even get to craft how we story-tell around narratives, right? And that's the reality. So, like, even if you're watching something like the NBA, most of the ways in which the NBA is pitched to us as people is through a white lens, white gaze, which is why we see something like--right now the marketing team for the NBA said, "Hey, you know what we should do? We should put Black Lives Matter on the courts in the bubble, and we should also put Breonna Taylor and these things, these names, on jerseys," and that's all marketing, but there's never the actual substance of, like, "Hey, actually, maybe if we got some more Black people from different experiences in the room, someone might say, like, "Oh, well, what about making systemic change?" Like, "What about not doing something that's performative? What about us actually using our cache, our narrative, our platform, to actually make change?" Like, if I was in that room I would say, "Well, that's cool and all, but if we actually built our marketing around creating a program where we send scouts to HBCUs, right, and start actually recruiting Black talent from Black schools, which could create systemic change where more young Black people would go play at HBCUs, which puts more dollars in the Black community and brings more cache to those schools. Right? [both laugh]Zach: Right. It was interesting to your point, right. So I'm looking at it, right, and we can talk a little bit about, like, the memeification of Breonna Taylor, and I'd like to get your opinion on that, but when you see these things and, like, it seems like we like to get in this, like, awareness loop. Like, we just talk about awareness over and over and over. So, like, if we just talk about it long enough, things will magically change. But, like, it's interesting because, like, that approach has never shown itself useful in any other endeavor, and when you look at the government and how--like, when we talk about making systemic change in other ways we pass laws. We create policies. Right? Like, we hold trials. There are, like, tangible things that we know that we do to actually move the needle in a real way, and so what I've appreciated is I've been seeing, like, the postgame and, like, LeBron has talked about it and other NBA players have been like, "Look, I'm only talking about Breonna Taylor," which I think is--that's admirable, right, to a degree. Like, I'm not shading that at all, and what I'm looking for, to your point, is like, "Okay, now at what point do we, like, move to, again, tangible solutions?" You know what I mean?Frederick: Yeah. No, that's exactly it. Tangible solutions, systemic change, because as you said, you know, it's not even just--it's a memeification of Breonna Taylor and really a memeification of, like, Black bodies as a whole, right? And that's what I'm saying, right? Like, every day people are posting this witty ways of saying, "Oh, we should have justice for Breonna Taylor." Like, I saw yesterday it was, like, in alphabet soup. I'm like, "Uh..." It's extremely weird, and it would only happen with Black people to be quite frank. I mean, like, let's be real. Let's look at somebody like the case around JonBenet Ramsey, right, the little girl who went missing, right? There was never a singular moment where that was turned into a global pun, right, and they still were looking for that little girl. They did not stop looking, and I think they still have content that comes out about looking for. They reopened the case for, like, the fifth time I think, like, two years ago. You know, we are the only ones where our Black bodies, like, our Black existence is commodified and turned into entertainment and turned into ROI, right? Zach: Right. Like, there are financial reasons, right? It's part of the capitalistic system we live in. It literally pays to talk about Black Lives Matter right now, right? Like, it gives you returns to, like--if I put #BlackLivesMatter in my social media--and it's easy. It's relatively easy for me to do that compared to me really investigating and examining, again, my own organization's policies, practicies, procedures, and institutions that drive or support white supremacy, like, within my own organizational walls. And so then, like, I think about--so there have been some cities that have been painting roads Black Lives Matter and making streets called Black Lives Matter. I'm like, "Y'all's own police forces have open investigations. There's unsolved murders." Like, there's all types of things that are happening, and so it gets to the point where it's almost--not almost, like, it is just gaslighting, you know? 'Cause we're not taking this serious, and we're still somehow, even in this moment, sidestepping the very real problem of the brutalization of Black and brown people.Frederick: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And to the point of, you know, painting Black Lives Matter on things, so on and so forth... in every major city where Black people live there's a Malcolm X Boulevard, there's a Martin Luther King Way, there's a James Baldwin this and a bell hooks that, and those are actually, like, sadly some of the worst streets in the areas of all of those cities, right? So we've already seen that performative isn't actually doing anything, right? Like, we've absolutely seen that, but again, there is a return on investment. It is dollar-making for cities, football teams, individuals to put up something that is aligned with Black Lives Matter? Why? As is often said, Black people and our buying power is, you know, on par with some of the larger countries in the world. So let's just be real here.Zach: I mean, yeah, 100% I mean, we alluded to it a little bit earlier. You know that we're seeing federal and state police forces and harm and murder civilians en masse on camera. We wouldn't even really know about these things without social media. So, you know, you and I, a little bit of tea, we met through an influencer event hosted by Twitter, right? And I would love to hear more about your perspective on how the Twitters, Facebooks and Reddits of the world, the role that they play in protecting basic human dignity and freedoms and, like, what all they could and should be doing in this moment.Frederick: Yeah. Well, you know, one, I'm happy that you called that out because I think that we have gone from a moment or a period of time where these platforms, the Facebooks, the Reddits, the Twitters, are that, right, they're platforms. They're no longer platforms. They're actually worlds now, and that's what these companies wanted them to traject towards. They wanted them to traject towards small worlds where people exist on them, whether as their actual selves or their other selves, whatever, they exist on them in real time. They breathe on them. They sleep on them. They eat on them, right? And therefore you can also be lost on them and be lost because of them, and you can also be saved, right, and I think that we saw that case with Toyin, right? We saw that Toyin was someone who had existed on and off the platform, Twitter, for quite some time, someone who came on Twitter and sought help. Now, Twitter has built itself to have various tools and various rules around how they stifle or amplify certain voices and moments. In terms of stifling, you can say the 'N' word for instance and be suspended from Twitter. I've seen it happen. It's happened to me. But they don't have things in palce to actually help people, right? In our real world, right, you can't try to recreate the real world online for your own capitalistic gain but not have the tools or the resources to support the people who are existing on these spaces. So I think that is one issue that I've seen that these companies and these platforms could do a great deal around. You know, I know the role that these platforms play. I just struggle with what we should expect from them, because at the end of the day, you know, these things are owned by white men for the most part, and white men are gonna be a white men. And that's a long-winded answer, but--Zach: So I think my follow-up to that is, like, we know that Black people specifically, right--like, I could say BIPOC, but I want to say Black people specifically. We know that Black people really make social media what it is, right? Like, we are the engine and the spice and everything else that really makes social media dope, and so I guess my question is, like, do you think the reason why Black voices are promoted and have grown and kind of, like, been the influencer and shaker that we are, do you think that's because of capitalism? Do you think that the ecosystem would be the same without capitalism?Frederick: I don't, and that's because of the history of Black people globally, right? Like, every turn in our history, except for when we were left alone, which was long before most history books can date, we have been leveraged because of some type of capitalistic or imperialistic agenda, right? So right now we are [?], whether that be on Black Twitter or on Instagram or on Facebook, right? I think that the only one we probably don't have that cache on is probably, like, Reddit, 'cause white supremacy owns Reddit for the most part. Like, we are the reason the United States and every facet of it is the United States, from the good, the bad and the ugly, right? We are the reason that most of the world is the way that it is. We are the influencing, driving force behind music, art, just every single thing to do with culture, but we've never reaped any of the benefits of that. So I do think that if capitalism didn't exist though, I don't think that it would be the same. I do think that we'd be much happier in our own space doing the same things amongst each other, but in terms of the influence globally? No, I don't think so, but I don't know if our global influence anyway matters if we haven't been benefiting from it.Zach: I agree with that. Yeah, and I appreciate you answering the question, because I've been thinking about it. I appreciate the fact that we have the influence, but it's like... it gets increasingly exhausting to see us have all this influence just for it to get monetized by everybody else, you know what I mean?Frederick: Right. To the point of the Twitter conversation that you were mentioning, you know, I talked about a lot of things in that conversation, and I think one of the things I mentioned that was a real criticism of capitalism and platforms was when I said, you know, for instance #BlackPantherChallenge, I made a joke, like, "Oh, yeah, Twitter was touting it, but at events I wasn't even invited to." [?] me caring about that, wanting to go to events, as moreso a criticism of how we operate around Black lives and Black work, but in that, you know, hours later you had a Black person from Twitter attacking me saying that, like, I don't care about anything but being invited to parties or something like that.Zach: It's the principle though, and I think it's interesting that you bring that up because I had a colleague, you know, and I had been doing some work around--so, look, Living Corporate has been around for a second, so I do this work in, like, creating digital media, creating different types of thought leadership around what does it really mean to drive diversity, equity and inclusion programs, right? So I had a colleague who was like, "Yeah, you know, I've been taking this and presenting this at Such-and-such," and I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I appreciate the fact that you've been taking it and it speaks to you, but if you're going to speak on work that you didn't create, you should at the very least let me know and give me an opportunity to speak to it myself since I'm the person who created it. And again, it's not about me getting the accolades or me getting paid per se, it's just respect. It's respect and courtesy for the people that, like, honor the creators, honor the people who did the work to lead something and give them the space. Like, don't pick and choose your own token representatives, and certainly don't center and place yourself as a representative. That's not cool. So yeah, that resonates with me, 'cause I think that nuance is often times lost in these moments, and I think that, for whatever reason, it can be hard for people to understand the principle of recognition and what real inclusion means, especially if it means that they have to, like, de-center themselves, you know what I mean?Frederick: Absolutely. It's something that I've had to also learn, right? Like, how do you step back to make sure that people are fully seen or give them the opportunity to be seen, right, if they want to, right? And I think that, again, we do it to ourselves. Like, we do it to other Black people. It's a conditioning thing, and it's absolutely rooted in white supremacy because, you know, white supremacy is at the center of every little thing wrong with society as a whole and always has been, right? Zach: Right. It's a scarcity mindset, man. It's like, you know, I think it's a core function of capitalism as well. It's not only production but consumption too. So it's like, "I gotta just take, take, take, and if I'm not the one taking it, then it's not real," or "If I'm giving it away, that's a loss to me." But, like, that's not an abundance mindset. It's literally the opposite of that.Frederick: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. And it's funny, 'cause I'm working on something right now, a second book called Black Under Trump, and, you know, that proposal went out, and I've noticed that you can tell a lot about engagements online. Like, you can tell a lot about who engages with you and how people engage and who shares what and who sees what, because--you know, you've looked at metrics before. You see impressions versus actual engagement, and one of the things that I notice is when I'm talking about my wins, right, when I'm talking about--my first book, when I announced that everyone was like, "Oh, congrats! This, that and the third!" And I'm like, "Well, I'm working on a second and third," and it's kind of like everybody was like, "Oh, no, to hell with that. You've had yours," right? And I'm like, "Oh, where did everybody go?" Right? And I realize--you know, 'cause most of my followers are Black people and people of color, I'm like, "Oh, it's because people think that there can only be one," right? This Highlander idea, the scarcity mindset.Zach: It's scary because it's like, if you would just pause and think about how little content there is out there that really centers and amplifies us, you would not be so--I mean, I hope you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss or, like, fight over crumbs. Like, we take up so little of the narrative, right, we take up so little of the space when it comes to our perspectives, our lived experience, our frustrations, our passions, our joys. I want to pivot that into my next question, which is what role do you imagine independent Black and brown media will take in this new decade, right? So, like, do you think it's gonna increase? Do you think it's gonna decrease? Do you think it's gonna stay the same? And why?Frederick: Now, do you mean media in the traditional sense or media as in, like, if you have a certain following you're also considered media.Zach: That's a good question. I'm thinking media more in the traditional sense, so thinking about platforms. But let's also extend it out to individuals, 'cause I do think that that's gonna continue to be a budding space.Frederick: You know, it's interesting because one of the things that I've learned--I think this year, in 2020, I've become a lot more radical, especially as I was on the campaign trail for these different presidential candidates, and in this year I've realized how different Black people are, right? I've always said Blackness is not a monolith, and I've always meant it, but I just never realized how big that spectrum was, because you have Black people who are from where I'm from--you know, I'm from the projects in Yonkers, New York, and I come from nothing, and I'm happy to have anything that I have now, and that is a lot different from a Black person who is fourth-generation, you know, college and fourth-generation [?], you know, Kappa Alpha Psi, so on and so forth, and in that what I'm struggling with now is when I think of Blackness in terms of, like, that question, right, like, "What role does Black media play?" Like, to be honest, I don't know because I don't know what type of Black people are at these different places, right? I don't know. Like, when I look at The Root, I know some of the people there, and there's a lot of them who, like, I deeply respect, and then there's also some of them I've met and I'm like, "Oh, wow. Oh, okay." Or there's Black outlets like Shade Room, and I'm like, "Oh, wow." You know? So I think that because of that spectrum, because of us not being a monolith, I deeply struggle with knowing what our place should be because sometimes I think some of us should have less of a place on the forefront, to be frank, and that means, like, some of our own platforms that we have currently.Zach: Yes. Well, expound upon that a little bit.Frederick: So I'll just be pretty direct. I think that there are groups, platforms, media outlets, so on and so forth, even individuals, who are highly platformed, highly powerful, and I hope every single day that in the next 10 years that their place amongst the epicenter of Blackness and visible Blackness is reduced, frankly. I hope that if any outlets are getting pushed, anyone, platform, so on and so forth, I hope that it's people with a lens to the more--I wouldn't even call it radical, but the more progressive, inclusive, liberating front.Zach: You know, it's interesting. I've talked about Living Corporate as a platform, and I would say, like, 99.9% of the people are like, "Oh, that's dope," because I come from a similar background as you, right? Like, I'm first-generation in a few different ways, and I'm not, like you said, fourth-generation college and whatever. Like, that's just not my story. That's not my background. My people came up poor, you know what I mean? But then I have met folks whose parents were, you know, a little elitist, and I think about the fact that there's--it's interesting how those voices end up being the representation in, like, major platforms for everybody, you know what I mean?Frederick: Absolutely.Zach: And that's something we don't talk about a lot, like, out loud, but it's true. So you see these people and they're like, "Man, that's a weird take," and I'm not saying that's your perspective, but it's certainly not mine or anybody's in the spaces that I move around in. Again, I am one person. But when I think about, like, kind of how white supremacy works in that way too, how it kind of will gravitate to these Black voices that are not really radical or that are not progressive, who are not much more politically left than they are, or just focused on Black liberation, and it's interesting how, like, you end up kind of just switching faces at the top, but you're not really focused on, like, dismantling anything, you know what I mean?Frederick: Right. White supremacy gravitates towards Black people who will do just enough to make white supremacy to feel like it's coming down when it's actually not. 100%. And that becomes very, like, confusing for me, and it's something that, again, this year I have struggled deeply with. You know, you and I follow each other and we see the things we say and have worked on. I love my people, and I do everything that I can for my people, you know, to exhaustion, and even that night at the Twitter thing or whatever, like, it broke my heart. The next day was Juneteenth, and I cried at one point because I was just like, "I can't believe my own people view me in this way and are doing this to me," right? And that's how I feel on a regular basis, whether it be BlackPantherChallenge or CaptainMarvelChallenge or whatever it is. I often find that my lens being liberation-focused and being very attuned to the movements of white supremacy ends up ostracizing me, and the only people who I end up getting support from are either really radical Black people or, like, to be honest with you white people, and that makes me really, really sad. Even my book cover reveal next week and my pre-order launch, I already know in the back of my head, like, "Oh, I don't think Black people are gonna buy my book." I don't think Black people are gonna support me because, like, I've never really seen Black people support me before. And that's not our fault, that's white supremacy, but it hurts.Zach: Right, 100%. Before we get up out of here, any parting words or shout-outs as we think about where we're at, where we've yet to really arrive to? I think about the fact that we're recording this, like I said, in late July. We have one of the most consequential elections in our lifetimes during a very unique season, like, a weird confluence of events between one of the worst economic crises that we've had for almost 100 years, a global pandemic, and global protests focused on anti-racism. I mean, like, what are some things you'd like to just leave the folks with?Frederick: Well, I think the first thing is something that you said that was a very powerful quote when you and I were talking some weeks ago, when you said, you know, "Black bodies have to be worth something," right? That sat with me and that's real, and it's deep, because I don't think that people understand sometimes that we could pile up the Black bodies lost to the Moon, right, while we've been in this fight for resistance and justice since we were brought over to these shores, right? Another thing is when people are upholding certain things, you're only upholding things that are founded on the bones that you think that they're not, right? You know, people are talking about, "Oh, I'm gonna get this role as VP of this company." Yeah, well, I mean, your ancestor's bones are in those walls, so let's just be real about this, right? You're not actually getting anything that you didn't already die for a million times. So that being said, I guess the last thing I'll leave people with is stop settling. Stop settling for the gaslighting that America has put us through in thinking that not being oppressed in some ways makes up for still being oppressed in others, right? Like, Donald Trump is a symptom of a much larger condition, and getting him out of office, whether it was gonna be Bernie, Elizabeth, or Biden or whoever else, we are still left with those same conditions, so unless we are going to work on the conditions and how we got here we will end up with another Trump in our children's lifetimes or our children's children's lifetimes, and that's the reality of the moment that we're in. Stop settling.Zach: I love it. Frederick, man, I appreciate you taking the time to be on Living Corporate. Y'all know what we're doing, right? This has been another episode of Living Corporate. We have conversations like this every single week - on Tuesdays, just a reminder, 'cause for those who this is their first time listening, every single Tuesday we have conversations like this, one-on-one deep dives with an incredible Black or brown person or an aspirational ally, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips. Those are, like, quick career tips, and then on Saturdays we either have an extended career conversation with Latesha Byrd or we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger when we talk with a Black or brown person about the technical aspects of their job so that y'all can understand that we exist all over corporate America and we actually operate and do very well when we are given opportunities or we create opportunities for ourselves. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Living-corporate, or just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up, okay? We're on all the browsers. Make sure you share this with your friends. Make sure you check out the links in the show notes. Preorder Frederick Joseph's book and check out his website. Until next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach welcomes Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. back to the podcast to talk about the concept of centering Black experiences. She and Zach discuss the tremendous impact of enduring continuous emotional labor and implore any and all aspiring allies and/or white executives to compensate Black people when they're asked to speak about their feelings, and Dr. Gassam also shares a bit about both her podcast and new book, both titled "Dirty Diversity" - check the show notes if you'd like to find out more!Learn more about (and buy!) Dr. Gassam's book "Dirty Diversity" on Amazon or Audible.Interested in the Dirty Diversity podcast? Check it out on her website.Read Dr. Gassam's "Dear Companies: Your BLM Posts Are Cute But We Want To See Policy Change" piece on Forbes.Connect with Dr. Gassam on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know, you know what we do. We have real talk in a corporate world, and we do that by centering marginalized voices so that we can actually amplify and center marginalized experiences at work, right? And so we're having these conversations with thought leaders, with educators, with writers, with executives, with entrepreneurs and social influencers and activists and elected officials - anybody, really - all around, again, centering and amplifying the most marginalized voices in the workplace, and so today we have a returning guest - frankly, a friend of the show, you know what I mean? Dr. Janice Gassam. Dr. Janice Gassam is an educator, public speaker, a consultant, and a senior contributor with Forbes. Dr. Gassam, how's it going?Dr. Gassam: It is going well. Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate you amplifying my voice and consistently amplifying my work. I love that we, like, you know, have built this support system, and I think that's so important, that we are, as quote-unquote marginalized people, we're supporting each other.Zach: Well, I mean, it's not--you make it very easy. You do great work, and your work really is what needs to be centered and focused on right now. I'm really curious, you know, as white folks are apparently learning what racism is for the first time, how have your--what does it look like in your field? Like, are you getting more requests right now? I know last time you were on the podcast we talked about the fact that a lot of folks would ask you not to talk about race. You know, what does it look like when you have clients reach out to you with requests?Dr. Gassam: Wow, that's a great question, and things have blown up and have exploded as far as I've been getting so many requests for racial equity workshops, and that's--you know, I'm partial to those workshops. Those are my favorite, but it's just so ironic because even, you know, less than a year or so ago I would have these discovery calls with clients, you know, who want me to come in and do a workshop or a training, and they have specifically said, "Do not talk about white privilege. Do not talk about race." They preferred me talking about the safe subjects like emotional intelligence, which I'm fine with talking about that, but I think that it's limiting in that if you're not willing to engage in the conversation nothing is going to change. So I'm very--I'm cautiously optimistic, and I hope that the momentum is still here after the summer is over. And I try to impress upon these leaders that, like, one workshop is not gonna change anything. Whether it's me or somebody else, you need to be bringing people in to facilitate to these continuous conversations. I think that that is really important, and people seem like they're starting to get it, so, you know, I'm just excited about this moment in time right now. I've never been busy like this before since my career started. So I think it's an exciting moment, and I'm trying to take advantage of it.Zach: And so let's talk about that. So, like, you know, again, in the past people would say, "Don't talk about white privilege, don't talk about Black experiences, Black female experiences. Talk about gender, but don't intersect that at all with ethnicity (or) race." What does it look like now when people hit you up? Like, what are they actually saying?Dr. Gassam: So, you know, I get emails primarily, and they're like, "Hey, my company wants to--" And what's funny, Zach, is that, like, there's such a sense of urgency now, you know? These same companies that--I'm gonna be [?]. I'm gonna keep it 100,000% real. Some of the same companies that didn't have money once COVID hit magically found the budget. You know, I had things lined up. And I get it, you know? They came back to me in March and April and said, "We don't have the budget." Cool. So now in June y'all found the budget, I guess. You know? Which I'm like, "Obviously you're realizing diversity, equity and inclusion is a priority." So it's usually--you know, the requests come in the form of an email. I appreciate that people have really been sharing my content on social media. So people often find me either through LinkedIn or through Instagram and they say, "Hey, I saw you talk about race, and we need this at our company. So when can you find a time to speak? How much do you charge for a workshop? What do your workshops entail?" So that's pretty much what it seems like, but with some of these requests it seems like there's such a sense of urgency, and that worries me a little bit because I think that it's not, like, a quick Band-Aid. You know, I'm happy to do the workshop. I've been doing these workshops. I've done many workshops, and I already know the structure and everything. However, I think that you have to have long-term objectives, and I don't know if a lot of these organizations have long-term objectives. It just seems like they want to do something so it looks like they're not doing nothing.Zach: Right, right. What is concerning about that, anxiety-inducing for me transparently, right, is it's very reactionary, and it reminds me of Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. Like, that portion where he talks about the white moderate and, like, how they're more concerned about false peace [than] with an absence of justice. And so even now in this moment I'm like, "Okay, are y'all just trying to mobilize something really quick just to say that y'all did something so that you don't have uprisings within your companies, or are you really looking to create equitable and inclusive working environments, not just for the next couple of days but for, like, the foreseeable future as your company moves forward in this new normal?" Like, that to me continues to be, like, my ongoing question. I mean, I've had people reach out talking about, "Can you come in and do some unconscious bias?" No.Dr. Gassam: And that is the worst. I don't think unconscious bias trainings are trash by any means. I think that most companies are not doing them effectively. That's, like, a nice way to say it, 'cause I think unconscious bias training doesn't do a lot. "Hey, I go through this training and I find out I have a bias against Black people." You might take an [?] association test and see, "Hey, I have a bias toward or against women, so what do I do now?" It's like, "Cool, now I recognize my biases," but if there's systems in the organization that allow bias to persist, it doesn't matter that now I know how to not say micro-aggressive statements, because there's, like, bias entrenched and baked into the fabric of the company. Like, in the way that they hire employees, that they're using a referral--many of these consulting companies, it's all referrals, it's all Jim knows Bob who knows John, and that's how you get jobs. It's primarily who you know and not what you know, and I think that there is benefits to referral hiring programs and systems, but I think that the way they're currently being done is just, like, creating this echo chamber of the same types of people. So I always encourage organizations to look at their systems and say, like, "Are Black people being promoted at the same rates as other people?" Because it's cool for you to say, "Look, no, no, no, we have a lot of Black people," but they're all in lower-level positions in the organization, but are they in senior-level positions, and if they are, how long are they staying? Because a lot of these tech companies, I love that they're being transparent and putting out these diversity reports, but they're not telling us how many of those Black people or those Latinx people or those women are staying in those roles, 'cause they're like, "Look, 13% of our population is Black [?]. Yay! That went up 1% from last year. Yay!" Like, but it's like, are those the same Black people, or did you just hire a bunch of new ones, and then those same ones with quit next--you know? So I think, like, looking at why there's this revolving door, particularly of Black people, you know, like, in the tech industry and all of these industries. The fact of the matter is that, like, Black people, a lot of us are not staying in companies, and part of the reason--a large part I would say--is because of the hostile work environments that we're working in. Zach: 100%. I mean, so Living Corporate, we've put out a couple of whitepapers, but, like, there's a few different reports, but they're, like, very rare, that talk about, like, turnover percentages. So I've yet to see anything that explicitly says "The turnover for this group is this." I've seen, and we've cited, sources that'll talk about the fact that Black and brown turnover is, like, two or three times higher than their white counterparts, but you're right. Like, there's no annual reporting that shows, "Hey, you know, our Black employees are four times more likely to leave within their first two years than their white counterparts." Like, that's not anything--those rates are never discussed. But you're absolutely right.Dr. Gassam: I think it's important, I mean, because these companies tout that they're so diverse, and I think that that's something important, that not just--we focus so much on the diversity piece. That is important to say, "Hey, look, we actually have diverse representation," but also, like, are they staying? Because if you're using stock images with Black people that look diverse that make your company look diverse but then I get there and I'm like, "Hm." I'm, like, the only Black person. That's, like, false advertising, and there's a lot of that going around, you know? I know the new buzzword is, like, performative allyship, and there's a lot of that going around with a lot of different companies that shall rename nameless, but yeah, I'm glad to see people are really calling them out, these companies out, and saying, "You posted Black Lives Matter, but you asked us not to wear Black Lives Matter stuff." Or "You have no Black people in senior positions," or "You have a hostile work environment where Black people don't feel comfortable." So, like, it's cute to--I wrote an article, like, "It's cute to post Black Lives Matter, but we want to see, like, policy changes." That's nice and fine and dandy, and I appreciate your statement because, you know, that's better than your silence, but I want to see more, and I'm glad that people are demanding more of their company.Zach: I wonder... I still don't think that organizations--and your piece was incredible, and we're gonna make sure that we link it in the show notes for those who didn't see it, but what I don't think organizations understand is that, like, if they come out here really loud externally about all these things they're gonna do to combat racism and inequity and things of that nature, but then, like, internally their policies and their cultures, their practices, their behaviors don't change, like, that's going to create more resistance, higher turnover, higher disengagement, than they had in the first place.Dr. Gassam: Mm-hmm, and as an employee, if I worked in that company, I would just be looking like, "Okay, y'all are, like, not really about that life." And I'm not about, like, exposing the company that I work for unless I feel like I've been completely mistreated--and I've definitely felt like that in workplaces, but my industry is very small, so I just silently exit a company, and I might speak of it but not give specifics and names and things like that. But I think that you're opening your company up to that type of negative publicity from employees if you're not, like, authentic in the things that you do, and I mentioned this before in a few speaking engagements I've done, but I have a friend that works at a very well-known consulting firm. She's been there for four years, and she said that--she belongs to a marginalized group. She's considered brown, and she said that since--her company has a diverse referral program, but she said since she's been working at the company for the last four years, they've never hired anyone from that diverse referral program. But it's just, like--I call it cosmetic diversity, where you have something in place just to look like you're doing something, look like you're actually about that life that a lot of these companies are not about [that life]. So I think that that's just not a good look. If you're gonna like the talk, you have to also be doing things that show that you're actually putting your words and your intentions into action.Zach: I agree. And to your point around, like, negative press or attention, it's--I think also, and all of this generational, because even I--you know, as someone... I'm 30, right? So, like, I'm not young-young, but I'm not older. I'm not old. So I think I probably still don't fully appreciate how easy it is--like, for something to go viral, especially as something negative, but it's, like, really, really easy. Like, there's so many avenues and mechanisms to, like, share your voice now, and I just don't know if organizations appreciate that AND the fact that, you know, doing that today, like, airing things out, putting people on blast, is not an automatic career ender like it might have been, like, five or six years ago. Like, if you put somebody on blast now, like, that doesn't mean that your career is over. It means you just--like, you may be actually heralded as a hero depending on how you do it, right? Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and just like a lot of these racists who say and do things after a year or so and the public forgets and they're able to go and get jobs, the same I think could be said for employees that put their companies on blast, because so many things are happening in our lives that we forget. Like, I don't remember all of these people's names. Are we still gonna remember Amy Cooper? Well, I guess there's a law now with her name, but are we gonna remember all of the Barbecue Beckys? Like, what their actual names are? Probably not. So I do think that you're absolutely right in that companies I don't think quite appreciate and understand how easy it is for people to get information out and just share their story and just share, "This company has a crappy environment." And you actually shared with me last year that internal memo, that Medium article, that those Facebook, those Black--I believe they were all Black, or some were Latinx--Facebook employees wrote about the toxic work culture and, you know, there's so many avenues to write anonymous memos and things like that about your company, and so that's not the type of press and reputation that you want. So I'm really happy that people are like, "We need to change. We are really--" Like, I've been getting requests, Zach, from, like, the most fascinating, like, industries that I never even expected, like, this person is reaching out and that person is reaching out. A fitness company reached out to me and said that they wanted me to do a webinar. A jewelry company reached out to me, and I was just like, "Wow." So, like, it's every industry. It's industry-wide. So, you know, I think that has really been interesting to me, that everyone is waking up and saying, "Whatever industry we're in, this is a problem that is, like, not specific to our industry. Everyone is having these issues and needs to figure out how we create an environment that is inclusive to Black people specifically," because I think that a lot of times the conversation gets watered down and we talk about other groups but we don't focus specifically on Black people and Black liberation and things like that, and I think that that's a huge part of the reason we're here, that we have more ease with talking about LGBTQ+ issues or gender issues than we do racial issues.Zach: You're absolutely right, and I think a large reason for that is because white people can be women and white people can be gay, but white people can't be Black. So it's like what does it look like to really shift and, like, have authentic conversations that center marginalized people? And it's interesting. I was talking to some colleagues a little while ago and was talking about the concept of, like, decentering whiteness, and they were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "A large way that we center whiteness is just in our language, right?" Like, a lot of the terms and things that we've created, we create those terms to avoid Blackness and to avoid the reality of harm. So it's like, we'll have these conversations and we'll talk about--you know, we'll say bias when it's like--and bias is, it fits technically, but what you're also talking about is, like, white supremacy or just racism, right? Like, we're not talking about--this isn't, like--like, bias softens it sometimes. In certain ways, bias softens it in the same way that, like, you know, it's not like I have a bias towards Coca-Cola versus RC Cola. Like, no, I genuinely think this person is less than me and, by relation, because of that, I treat this person differently. Like, that's different. And, you know, even--yeah, so anyway, not to go on a rant. So I do think this segues well though into your podcast, Dirty Diversity.Dr. Gassam: Yes. Yeah, so I actually started the podcast during Black History Month, and it was important for me to not only start it during Black History Month, but, like, the first episode was ironically, like, why your Black employees are leaving, because I don't think that we're talking about these things, and I think that we conflate people [of color?] with Black people, and we lump everyone together, I think for the sake of, like, conversation, it's easier to just say "Black and brown people," and it is, because a lot of these--your closeness to Blackness will impact your experiences, you know? And there's Latinx people who are stopped as much as us when they're driving, who experience racism just like us and things like that. So, you know, I think it's easy to say that, but I think it's important to put a particular focus on the unique experiences of Black people, and I don't think we do that enough, and when I'm asked to do these trainings there isn't a focus on--when that is the problem, Zach, it's that you're not able to retain Black employees. They're leaving, but you want me to come in and do inclusion training. Your problem is not inclusion. The problem is you're not creating an environment where Black people feel like they're valued and they matter, so we need to focus on that specific problem, and I think that watering it down is what we've been doing for so long, and that hasn't produced positive results or changes, so we have to just be bold and call it out for what it is. And I'm so excited, because I feel like I have been censoring myself--I censor myself on social media a lot because my colleagues follow me, so I can't be like, "White supremacy--" I can't be using that language a lot because, you know, my colleagues [?] me and all of these things, and I know in my field that's gonna get you--that sort of thing is not gonna sit well with... but now I feel like I can say what I really want to say, especially in the workshops, and I think that that's gonna make people [uncomfortable,] but for me, my goal isn't to make people feel happy. My goal is to help you change and help you create better organizations, and the way to do that is I'm gonna have to say things that are uncomfortable and you're gonna have to evaluate your role and how you've contributed to inequitable systems and oppression and things like that. And for a lot of people this is the first time that they've ever taken a look in the mirror, and just with speaking with different white women, they've said--and they're millennials, you know? Like, they're young, and they're like, "This is the first time I've really taken an honest look at myself, and even though I have Black friends and, you know, I dated a Black guy, you know, maybe I have white supremacist views," and it's like, "Yes, you do." Every white person who's born and raised in the U.S. have internalized white supremacist views, and a lot of it is just baked into our American fabric, so it's, like, recognizing that and using your privilege and your power to impact change.Zach: And, you know, I think that really leads us well into the book that you recently--I think by the time this airs it'll be published, so, like, let's talk about the book.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, and thank you again for the opportunity to just share my work with your audience. You know, I was--it was important to create the book, but now I'm already [thinking about] book #2 and how it needs to focus specifically on race. So I wrote "Dirty Diversity" as, like, a very simple, practical guide [for] implementable ways that you can create more inclusion and equity into your workplace. The thing that I've learned in the years that I've been--I've been in consulting now for, like, two years or so, and I've learned so much. When I started doing these diversity workshops, I knew nothing. I didn't know anyone personally that was close to me that did any sort of--I didn't know consultants like that, you know? Just people I went to school with who work at large consulting firms, but I didn't know independent consultants, so I had to figure a lot of things out on my own. I had to bump my head multiple times. So the book is written in three different sections, and the first section is for managers, and it's things that are so simple and easy to implement into your workplace you might say, "Why didn't we think about this?" Or "Why haven't we been doing this?" But it's simple ways to create more inclusion in your workplace. The next section is for people who do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and things that I've learned from creating workshops and ways that you can improve the effectiveness of the workshops, but one of the things that I emphasize is that one workshop or one training is not gonna make a change. You have to encourage the organizational leaders to do multiple trainings and multiple workshops. And then the third section is written for employees and just, like, simple ways and simple things you can include in your workplace to create more inclusion as an employee, 'cause I get that question a lot where people say, "How do I get my manager to care about diversity? And how do I get my manager to--" And I think that it's not just get managers to care and to--it's understanding the value of what this can bring into your workplace, but there are things that you can do yourself. Like, you know, I talk about an employee book club, and that's something, like, super easy, and maybe petitioning your employee to sponsor an Audible membership--because everybody doesn't read. For me, most of my books I consume them now on Audible. So, like, if you have an Audible membership, you don't have an excuse now to say, "Oh, I didn't have time to read." You could, like, take a [?] minute walk and listen to a chapter of a book. It's very easy now to me to, like--for things as an employee that you can implement into your workplace. So I felt like this book was really necessary, and I didn't--I had no idea all of these events would be transpiring right now, so I feel like it's even more relevant. And there's so many--in the book I talk about some really simple things, low cost or no cost things, that you can implement to create more inclusion, and I think that there's a perception that you have to spend a lot of money--which I do think you should be adequately compensating your consultants that come in, and a lot of times people ask me to come in and they expect it to be free, so I think that is part of the problem, but there are things you can do, like having a panel in your workplace. That's something that is a really simple way to create inclusion that you probably didn't think about. Inviting someone like you, Zach, to come in to speak with employees on a panel just about equity and inclusion and different things like that is just, like, an event your company can host, and often times on panels people are donating time or, you know, giving up their time for free. So, like, there's so many simple ways. It doesn't have to be this, like, extravagant sort of, like, training program that could help you to create equity and inclusion. So that's pretty much, like, the goal. It's a simple read. It's, like, a little over 100 pages, and I think it's just filled with things that you can do and can easily implement into your workplace to create more equity and inclusion. I mean, I'm excited to--I've already got a copy, okay? So we're gonna--Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: No, no, thank you, and so we're gonna make sure we put a link in the show notes for everybody to get a copy as well. And the book's title though--is the book's title "Dirty Diversity?"Dr. Gassam: Yes. So same title as the podcast. The reason I titled is "Dirty Diversity" is because diversity has definitely become a dirty word. People are not into having diversity trainings. There's a misconception about what diversity is, what it brings to an organization. There's still diversity resistance and pushback. So when you say, "We're gonna have a diversity training," people in their minds have an idea of what that is. There's a lot of research that indicates diversity trainings are not effective. So I really was kind of focused on, like, what are some things, in addition to workshops and trainings, that you can--what are some ways you can create more inclusion? Because I kind of resent the fact that--I've seen this meme going around, and I disagree--I think it's cute and it's funny, but it's like, "The revolution will not be in diversity and inclusion training," and I disagree with that. [both laugh] Have you seen that meme before? Zach: I have. I don't--I hear you though.Dr. Gassam: I was like--I don't agree fully. I think when done effectively workshops--if you're having workshops every month in addition to a multitude of other things like mentorship programs, I think they can be effective.Zach: I think authentic, intentional workshops paired with other systemic solutions are effective. I think most people when they think about these workshops, they're not talking about the type of work that you do or the type of work that, like, Dr. Erin Thomas at Upwork, that she does, thinking more about the--you know, the very white comfort-centered diversity of thought -type workshops. Those are not gonna lead us to no revolution, but I agree with you about, you know, intentional, intelligent, competent workshops along with other things are very effective.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, yeah, and that's--you know, that was my thought. You know, everybody's kind of--you know, and I try not to curse, but everyone's kind of, like, crapping on diversity and inclusion trainings, and I do think that in itself one training is not gonna change anything, but the problem is those companies don't even have ongoing trainings or workshops. They have one once a year if that. A lot of them have never had any sort of training, yet every year they have sexual harassment training, which I find to be interesting, you know? Zach: Well, it's typically to check a box, right, from, like, a legal perspective. Like, that's typically what they're doing so they can at least say, "Well, we do this, and we do it regularly," you know? It's not really about any type of behavioral change.Dr. Gassam: Exactly. Yeah, so it's like to check a box. So really, like, how to overcome this idea that diversity has become a dirty word. What are some really simple things? And I'm telling you, it's such a practical, simple--I'm not using any, like, jargon that you wouldn't be able to understand. It's very, like, a simple guide. You open it, you read it and say, "Oh, this is something, like, so simple. Why aren't we already doing this in our company?" But you'd be surprised. To me, like, something, like, a blind resume system. When people tell me they can't find Black candidates, can't find Black engineers, I'm like, "Do you have a blind resume system?" And they're like, "No, what's that?" And that to me is something that I think is so simple but a lot of people just don't know. So that's really, like, what the purpose of me writing this book was. Like, simple things that you think a lot of people know but they might not, and it's just, like, so simple to implement into your workplace. It's not complicated at all outside of just workshops that you can do to create more inclusion.Zach: Man, this has been super dope. What else do we need to talk about, Dr. Gassam? 'Cause I want to make sure I give you your space. So we talked about--Dr. Gassam: So much! Thank you. [both laugh] You know, there's so much. All of the performative allyship, all of the--Zach: Oh, yeah. Let's go in on that real quick actually. Yeah, no, this is good. So side note, y'all, for those who are kind of behind the scenes. Typically I send out, like, these very detailed questions before each podcast, but, you know, for people that like--you know, we kick it or, like, we kind of get each other's style or energy, we kind of freestyle. So this is actually a freestyle, y'all. That's why we're, like, actively trying to think about what we talk about next. We have a little bit more time. Dr. Gassam: And I really appreciate that, and we'll talk about how to support each other after we get into the performative allyship.Zach: Yo, let's do that. Okay, so this performative allyship stuff is crazy, right? Like, I'm so tired of these people--and you know what's really wild? It's like--what we don't talk about is, like, just... we don't talk about this enough I think just, like, culturally, the importance of authenticity, right? So, like, I've had people who have harmed me with their racist behaviors hit me up now talking about, "Hey, just thinking about you." Like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking to me, and why would the first thing when you reach out to me not about the harm that you caused, that you KNOW you caused? These are, like, [?], right? Like, these are things that, like, you gravely harmed me personally and professionally, right? It's not like you walked by, you touched my hair and said, "Oh, this is like my little pet lamb's hair back in my Meemaw's house." Like, no. This is "You harmed me." And so it's wild, like, that we have--how members of the majority... go ahead.Dr. Gassam: I know. It's just like--I'm getting a lot of people hitting me up, like, that are--you know those people that are in the periphery of your life? They're not in your life, but they're just, like, there watching from the--I get a lot of those, and there are people who have actively done things to prevent me from being successful, and they reach out to me, or on the other end people are asking of me, and I won't get into too many details, just, you know, to protect myself, but there are people who are actively asking things of me without consideration of the events that transpired. You're asking for projects from me and things like that, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not in a mental state--" And I've had to send emails like that where I'm like, "I'm not in the mental state to produce what you're asking me to produce because there are Black people being killed and slaughtered, videos," you know? And I just--and it's "Oh, my gosh! You're so right! I didn't even realize it! Oh, my gosh. Like, it's all because of Trump. This would have never happened if Obama was president!" [Zach sighs] And it's like... I mean, it did happen when Obama was president.Zach: It happened a lot [?] though.Dr. Gassam: I was just like... "Okay, but thanks." So I get those, where people are completely, like, oblivious to what's going on and what's happening and how maybe the Black [people] you know are impacted by this, so maybe I shouldn't be asking for X, Y and Z, and I've had to let people know, but I've also seen, yeah, like you said, people who have actively caused harm to you, "Hey, how are you?" Without any acknowledgement of what was done, what was said, your role in how you contributed. Lots of snakes in the grass.Zach: A lot of snakes in the grass! I think also just, like, the psychological--and, like, I don't even think, like, even just considering the additional mental and emotional toll you put on that other person when you do that. So, like, now, as the person who's receiving your random message after a year or after six months or however long, now I have to do the mental calculus if I'm gonna even gonna respond and then make a decision if I respond, "How vulnerable do I want to make myself in responding to you?" Knowing that if I respond to you and you get upset it could harm me even more. So it's just so... so that alone is, like, ugh, such a rant. Such a rant-worthy topic. I do think that it's, like, when we talk about allyship and--I just wonder, are people--I'm not curious about it. This is my belief. I don't believe that members of the majority have the capacity to, like, really deal with being explicitly anti-racist for more than, like... like, for a sustained amount of time, right? Like, you're already seeing on Twitter, people are getting burnt out. Like, "Ugh, I know that you guys are probably tired, but here are some tips that you can--" [Dr. Gassam laughs] "Make sure you drink your [?] tea."Dr. Gassam: You're absolutely right, and it's exhausting in that--and I know a lot of white people are confused, because in one breath we say, "You should be checking on your Black friends," but in another breath it's like we're getting binged and pinged and all of this, like, left and right, and then you have to keep having to revisit the conversation of, like, you know, "Why aren't you answering my text messages? I hit you up to check on you." 'Cause I don't want to keep talking about the same--like, I appreciate that you reached out. I don't--I'm not in the mental state. I want to go on a bike ride and just have the sun on my face and just not think about Black people being killed. I just want to listen to a podcast while riding a bike. Sometimes you just don't want to keep talking about, keep talking about it, and what I've found is that--it's interesting, companies want to give us space to talk about without asking us if this is something we want to take part in. A close friend of mine worked in a healthcare system, and she said her company was like, "Hey, can you be on this panel? It's all Black people talking about their families," and it's like, "I don't want--like, why do I gotta--you don't even--" Like, it's really like, "Hey, we want you to be part of this panel." "No, I don't want to." I had another friend who was asked to talk about white privilege, and she was like, "This isn't even my scope or my domain. I'm in PR. Why are you asking me to talk about white privilege? This isn't even, like--what, just because I'm a Black woman you want, "Oh, yeah, have her talk about--"" She was like, "What?" And I had to send out an email to somebody that asked me to a part of a panel, and I didn't want to be mean, but I was like, "When you're asking me to regurgitate and keep repeating why I feel bad as a Black person living in America, like, you should be paying me," you know what I'm saying? And I know that sounds like--it's not a matter of being all about the money, but it's a matter of, like, this is emotional labor, and this takes an emotional toll on me to be on 80 million eleven panels talking about why, what I feel as a Black person and all of this, and it's just like--the idea of paying a Black person doesn't often cross these people's minds who are organizing these events, and I'm just like--at this point, like, my mind [?] so busy with these workshops--and also I teach as well, so it's like with teaching and doing the workshops and promoting the book, like, I'm not gonna just be on a panel talking about how sad I am and my experiences as a Black person. There's so many thinkpieces online with people giving this information to you already. You don't need me on a panel to talk about what it feels like to be Black. And I hope I'm not being too raw, but it's just that's how I've been feeling lately.Zach: No, you're not being too raw at all. I see where you're going and I will meet you there. So look, folks who are asking--please stop asking us to talk about our feelings for free. I need y'all to stop. Many of you listen to the podcast, right? And, like, when I say you I mean aspiring allies and white executives. Stop. Now, look, especially--like, not to be classist, but especially don't be asking a bunch of degreed people to be doing it. Like, that's crazy. You have people out here who have whole doctorates in sociology and psychology and you're asking them to come on these panels for free. It's like, "No." Like, "I have the Western colonized expertise from an actual [?] institution, and couple that with the expertise of my lived experience, when you ask me for my time, I need you to pay me. Don't even ask." I've had people ask me for my time to do things and I'm like, "First of all, do you understand how much--" Like, I'm gonna feel drained after this, because I'm gonna talk about all these things and no one's gonna come back to me with, like, any tangible resources or support. It's just gonna be me, like, giving out.Dr. Gassam: And it's like--you have a podcast where you talk about all these things. You invite people to talk. You have--and then it's, like, on top of that you write about these things, on top of that you work full-time, on top of that you're a father and you have a wife. It's just, like, y'all gotta think about all of these things. It's like, "Hey, can you explain to me, like--" No, I can't. I'm sorry.Zach: No, I can't. And shameless plug, like, Living Corporate, it's not like we're just, like, a random podcast. Like, you can go on our website and type in anything and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Like, we have a whole database, so you can educate yourself, and, like, there's other free resources. I think it's so inappropriate during this time, like, going back to what you said earlier about organizations and, like, predominantly white leadership who have, like, either intentionally or unintentionally been the cause for people to exit their places of work are now, like, sending out these emails with a bunch of different options to have quote-unquote "real talk sessions," and, like, who made you a luminary on the subject one, but then two, like, why do you just presume that I even want to do this? But the challenge, Dr. Gassam, is, like, there's also the reality--which we don't talk about enough, and, like, shout-out to Brittany J. Harris of The Winters Group. I see you. She talked about it, like, explicitly--this was some months ago--about the fact that, like, power is, like, the silent "P" in DE&I, right? It's like--we don't talk about the fact that, like, yo, if a senior executive sends out something to talk, have one of these conversations, there's gonna be a certain percentage of marginalized people who feel pressured to join it simply because the person who sent out the invite is in power, right? Like, there's a power dynamic that we don't want to address, and also when you ask people to do things--like, nine times out of ten the Black and brown folks you ask to do this type of work or, like, to randomly jump in this and it's not even their expertise, they're gonna feel pressured to say yes because you're in charge, and then when they show up to do whatever you want them to talk about, white privilege, their own lived experience, whatever, they're going to be pressured to not be as honest as they would even like to be because they know that they might get fired or they may be opportunities withheld from them if they say the wrong thing.Dr. Gassam: Exactly, exactly, and I'm actually doing a workshop tomorrow, and the two individuals who reached out to me to do the workshop, they had told me they don't want to be part of the facilitation because there are--there's 500 people who are a part of this workshop, and they're worried because in their industry it's, of course, not what you know it's who you know, and I sympathized with them 100,000% because I'm still--you know, I work in an institution, and I can't fully say--I can't go out and jump on a limb and say everything that I would want to say because of that power piece and because I know that there's still many people who are uncomfortable when you're speaking the truth and when you're trying to--so it's like you can only say but so much, and unfortunately it's like--we need the raw, and we need it to the point, and I'm glad people are more open to that right now, but it's still, like, a concern for us and for people who do this work and, you know, even you as a--not only as an employee but as someone in the podcast space, I'm sure there's topics that you can venture into but not too, too much because you don't--Zach: Oh, Dr. Gassam. Ooooh, bay-bay. [laughs]Dr. Gassam: You know? 'Cause it's like, "I know my audience." You know, there's stuff--I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you want to say but you just--one day [I'ma?] have a tell-all.Zach: Listen, one day--no, I literally tweeted this the other day, I said, "One day I'ma let these @s fly." Like, I'ma really talk to y'all. But no, you're absolutely right, the power dynamic, it dictates, like, literally everything. So, like, you know, I talk differently now because I work--I have a 9-to-5 job. Like, the day that I do Living Corporate full-time, I'm still not gonna be able to talk as free because I'm gonna have clients, and my clients need to know and respect the fact that, you know, I won't air them out one day, you know what I mean? So, like, the only time that I think you ever really hear, like, Black people speak the truth, like, unabashed truth is when they have a lot of money, right? So you think about--you know, you think about, like, the Will Smiths and Kevin Harts and Dave Chappelles and Eddie Murphys of the world, the people who just--or people who just don't care at all, and those voices are needed, but it's just, like, I can't shame people for not being 100,000% raw all of the time when, like, our survival is predicated on some degree of white comfort. It just is. We can't just say--we can't speak the truth like we want to. Like, I believe I speak the truth pretty consistently, don't get me wrong, but there are certainly--like, I'm halfway joking, but there are things that I would like to be much more explicit about, but I can't, you know? Especially [because] I have a daughter, you know what I mean? You have to be careful. So let's talk about this. Let's talk about supporting each other during this time. So we're talking about, like, the emotional labor that we sometimes get pressured into performing or just the increased emotional labor during this time, but also just the general amount of labor just in being Black and brown in majority white spaces. When you asked or when you kind of suggested talking about supporting one another, like, what comes to mind for you?Dr. Gassam: So many things. You know, I think that besides the Candice Owens and some of these people out here that maybe don't [?]--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Please don't ever say her name again. Nope.Dr. Gassam: [laughing] I'm sorry. Some of these people, you know, these people, I think for the most part we got us, and the community that we're building and that we've built and the support that I feel from my fellow Black people just makes me really proud to be Black, and I have to say that in a lot of the--in April I was offering these complimentary workshops because I was transitioning from in-person trainings and workshops to online and I was acclimating and getting myself used to Zoom. So I was like, "You know, if your company wants a complimentary workshop just reach out." And let me tell you, I did 7 complementary workshops that month, and all of the people that reached out to me were Black women. I love that Black women are always, always at the forefront of putting other--we're always... I feel like we have such big hearts and we're always trying to, like, save the world, and people need to listen to us more, but I just think that in a moment like this, the support and the camaraderie that I'm seeing among Black people but particularly among Black women is just what, like, warms my heart and reminds me why, despite all of the B.S. and what we're going through, I'm so proud to be a Black person and to be a Black woman. So I think that just supporting each other, supporting Black businesses and things like that, just reaching out to your Black friends, I think--one of the many things that I love about us is, like, we're gonna have fun and find entertainment in anything, and I've been like--we've been crying a lot, but I just find that we just make anything into, like, something funny, into a joke. Like, after the Verzuz of Beenie Man and Bounty Killer, I was just, like, so entertained by the memes and the gifs, and I was just like, "I love us." Like, we are just so funny, and we're just like--so that's, I think, like, the fact that us coming together and just laughing and doing things that bring us joy and just, you know, the community I think right now is we're building that and we're creating these groups, and so I think that we should all be doing one thing that makes us feel joy, and whether that's, like, meeting up with a friend, grabbing some ice cream, riding a bike, I've been trying to do that more and more. And just, like, [supporting] each other. I have friends that reach out to me and say, "Hey, I want to bring you into my company," and it's like, just that support of, like, "I see you, I see the work that you're doing and I'm trying to put you on," is I think what we need more of and what I've been seeing a lot, and I just love that.Zach: Man, I love it too, and, you know, with that being said, if you haven't yet, make sure that you get a copy of "Dirty Diversity," Dr. Gassam's--it's your first published book, right?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. Yes, my very first published book, so I'm awaiting--it is gonna be available Juneteenth, on June 19th, and both the e-book and the paperback will be available on Amazon, but I'm also awaiting Audible approval because I recorded the audiobook, so I'm just waiting on that process now. Hopefully it'll all be good by June 19th, but I think by the time this episode drops it'll be available via Audible as well.Zach: Well, that's dope, and yeah, we'll make sure that we signal boost any of the promotions and advertising for it on Juneteenth, and then we'll also make sure that y'all check out Dr. Gassam's Dirty Diversity podcast. So Dr. Gassam, you know what I'm saying, she's way more fancy than me, so her guests--I mean, we have great guests, don't get me wrong. We have amazing guests, so let me not play, but I'm just saying, like, she's--Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you guys have amazing, amazing guests.Zach: We have dope guests, but I'm saying your guests are nothing to sniff at, you know what I'm saying? So make sure y'all check out Dr. Gassam, you know?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate it. Thank you for amplifying our voices and trying to use our platform to put more of us on. I think that that's an inspiration to me, and that's what I think we should all be doing, using our platforms and our power to put other people on, you know, other, our people on. But thank you so much, Zach, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend.Zach: Yo, same to you. Listen, y'all, this has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these conversations weekly. So again, this might be your first time listening to Living Corporate, so as a reminder or as an FYI, we have Real Talk Tuesdays--that's when we have these, like, you know, 1-on-1 conversations. We then have Tristan's Tips on Thursdays, and then we have The Link Up with Latesha or See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger on Saturdays. Like, those kind of interchange, and so we have essentially three different series a week, so make sure you reach out. We're all over Beyonce's internet, you know? Just type in Living Corporate, we're gonna pop up. And then yeah, you've been listening to Dr. Janice Gassam, public speaker, entrepreneur, educator, consultant, podcaster, and writer of "Dirty Diversity." That's also the podcast. Make sure y'all check out all the links in the show notes. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with award-winning journalist and author Pamela Newkirk to discuss the historical failure of diversity and inclusion. They talk a bit about her 2019 work "Diversity, Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business," and Pamela explains how and why transparent metrics across the board are the first step to actively addressing any diversity problem. She also implores institutions that truly want to embrace diversity to just stop doing what they've been doing and lean into the successful models that can be readily replicated that already exist out there. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about Pamela's work!Connect with Pamela on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Interested in Pamela's books? Click here to read more about them on Amazon.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and it's a Tuesday. You know, it's interesting--as a sidenote, y'all, you know, we pride ourselves in recording content in bulk, and, you know, we had a lot of different, interesting content that we were gonna share, but because of just where we are, we had to really shift some things. So thank you in advance for the folks being gracious with us, 'cause I know we'll--you know, a little bit behind the scenes. You know, we'll tell folks when we post and things of that nature, and we've had to change a lot of different things just because of where we are as a nation. And, you know, with that being said, y'all should know, if you don't know maybe you're a first-time listener. We actually are a platform that exists to center and amplify marginalized voices at work, and of course, again, considering where we are today, this work is all the more important, and we're really blessed and excited for the guest that we have today, Ms. Pamela Newkirk. Pamela Newkirk is an award-winning journalist whose articles have been published in the New York Newsday, the New York Times, and other publications. She's written a book called Spectacle, which was named one of the best books of 2015 by NPR, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Boston Globe, and The Root. It won an NAACP Image Award. She's the editor of Letters From Black America and A Love No Less:" More Than Two Centuries of African-American Love Letters and is the author of Within the Veil: Black Journalists, White Media, which won the National Press Book Club award for media criticism. In addition to this, and what we're really excited to talk to her about today, she is the author of the 2019 incredible seller Diversity Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business. Ms. Newkirk, how are you?Pamela: I'm fine considering all that's going on in the world. Zach: I hear you. I'm exhausted, frustrated, anxious. I'm still somehow hopeful though.Pamela: Yeah, you know, I think that's kind of where I'm coming out on this. I have seen more progress over the past few days than I have in the 20 years that I've been writing about diversity and race and inclusion. Like, suddenly it seems to be breaking through, and I think there is no longer a place to hide and to pretend you're innocent or ignorant about what African-Americans are living through day-by-day. You know, as if the George Floyd travesty, tragedy, was not enough, we're still seeing constantly these videotaped images of police officers, you know, brutalizing peaceful protestors. So it's like suddenly it's all out in the open, and while those of us who have been living this for our entire lives, none of this is new to us. We've been saying it. We've been documenting it. But for some reason, the constellation of incidents, you know, from Amy Cooper to Ahmaud Arbery to then the most shocking, horrifying video of George Floyd being murdered on camera, this, you know, continuing saga of the African-American experience, to finally break through to the mainstream of white America. Zach: You know, it's interesting that you go there, 'cause I was curious, you know, in your book, Diversity Inc., you talk about the adverse impacts of unconscious bias training and how it's been proven to be ineffective, and yet that still seems to be, like, the mainstay or, like, for some organizations, like, their crown jewel. Like, they build everything around unconscious bias, the concept of unconscious bias, training around unconscious bias, you know, language that really focuses on bias only being unconscious.Pamela: Right. It's like drive-through diversity. You know, drive-by diversity. That's what the civil rights lawyer Cyrus Merry calls it. Companies are willing to spend billions of dollars every year on all of these, you know, the apparatus of diversity, but they're not willing to devote their money to interventions to actually doing diversity, actually hiring a diverse workforce. It's not that complicated, it's not rocket science, and yet, you know, we live in a world where you can go on Google and find out almost anything, and yet even in major cities companies pretend that they cannot find, you know, diverse candidates. It's really absurd, and I think, you know, that the level of frustration and the number of people out on the streets is now really shining a bright light on injustice writ large. It's not only the injustice of police brutality. Racial injustice has just been normalized, you know? Whether it's African-Americans dying of COVID at, you know, 4x the rate of whites, whether it's the radical underrepresentation of African-Americans in practically every professional field. You know, the health disparities. You go down the line, and we have, for centuries, normalized this as if it's, like, determined by God that we should have, you know, these kinds of disparities when it really is a function of policies and practices that are human-made, right?Zach: Right, right. No, I agree with you. You know, I want to ask you a question about the book title before we get to the next question. It's Diversity Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business. Can we talk about what promise corporate D&I has failed to deliver on?Pamela: Oh, God. You name it. I mean... so, you know, in doing the book, I wanted to interrogate the tension between the rhetoric of diversity, the apparatus of diversity, you know, the diversity czars and the diversity studies and the diversity reports and the diversity organizations and all of this--you know, this huge apparatus. You know, the climate surveys, the training. I wanted to look at--you know, we're devoting so much time to that, and why we consistently fail to achieve diversity. Like, what's going on? Why are we spending billions of dollars on something that has been shown year after year to fail? Like, it just... it seems ludicrous, but yet, you know, you have a company like Google that will spend more than 100 million dollars a year on diversity initiatives and year-after-year end up with a workforce in which African-Americans are, like, 2% of the employees in tech. Like, how do you spend that much money and fail so spectacularly year after year, and could that money instead be used to actually hire... [laughs] Silly me! Like, do you really need to train 30 and 40 and 50-year-olds to think differently about people of color who are just, like, totally missing in those spaces? How about bringing some of those people in those spaces? And guess what, they're gonna have to learn how to deal with them. They would be their colleagues. Like, I don't need to be trained on how to deal with diverse populations, but I do need a job, and if I am in a workplace that has people from different walks of life and different races and different, you know, whatever, I mean, I will learn how to deal with that. I don't need to be trained.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting, because to your point, we talk about this training. It doesn't go anywhere, and frankly I'm frustrated by the space. And so as I continue to look at it I see certain patterns, and it seems almost like diversity and inclusion is a space where--I'm gonna paint with broad brushes here, but you know what? It's my podcast and I can do that. So it seems as if diversity and inclusion as an industry is, like, a space where white women can go to, like, help them with their careers or to help give them certain levels of access or profile. So I've explicitly seen white women, like, talk about diversity and inclusion at, like, these big platforms, like, at Davos, right? And they'll stand up there and they'll say something fairly pedestrian if not outright obvious, but they're applauded for it, and it's like they're applauded by other white people. So it's almost like a community within itself, right? Like, they use a lot of language that we really don't understand.Pamela: Right, and worse than that. I'm gonna go further on your podcast. [both laugh] Diversity has come to mean everything and nothing. What is diversity? Most institutions don't even agree on what diversity is. Diversity could be more women, more white women, diversity could be more LGBTQ, and they can be white. Diversity could be people with mental or physical, you know, issues, and they can be white. So diversity can totally eclipse racial diversity and still, to many institutions, qualify as diversity. You know, the diversity czar at Apple went so far as to say 12 blonde blue-eyed white men could illustrate diversity because of their different backgrounds. So this diversity has--which is why, in my book, I focus on racial diversity, because I think race has sort of been set aside, you know? Because supposedly after the election of Barack Obama we were suddenly a post-race nation. You know, people are not saying that anymore. No, not today, but they were saying that, you know, for 8 years, and here we are, you know, with the same issues and with the needle barely moving for decades in most influential fields, whether we're talking about journalism or academia or museums or the law firms. Like, look around, and while all of these institutions will wave the diversity flag, very few of them are diverse.Zach: Right, especially when you start looking higher and higher, right? So when you start looking at spaces for the folks who actually make decisions and really are responsible--like, who own a P&L, like, that's where you start just seeing--I mean, you may at best see a sprinkling of non-white people, and that's not even to say black people. You might only see a sprinkle of just non-white people. And so I'm curious, when we talk about this space, and you kind of alluded to it when I asked you about how you're feeling and talked about hope, but I want to talk about the fact that we had Howard Bryant, ESPN senior contributor, NPR contributor, on the podcast on Saturday, and I shared that I think right now is a watershed moment essentially exposing how by and large inept diversity and inclusion is at really engaging black and brown employees explicitly. And I'm curious, do you think that we're in such a moment?Pamela: You know, I'm hopeful. Of course, you know, the proof is gonna be in the pudding, you know, whether we actually see change, but I do--you know, I'm heartened by seeing so many white people even out on the streets, you know, protesting. You know, that's not something that we've seen. You know, Black Lives Matter has really been limited to black and brown people who have been out there on the frontlines of that battle, and it's almost as if white people have, like, cast themselves as sort of innocent bystanders in this whole racial conversation. Like, they have, like, really nothing to do with it when they have everything to do with it, and so it's really encouraging to me to at least see whites engaging in a way that I have not seen in my lifetime.Zach: It's incredible that you say that. I was speaking to my father this morning, and he said, "Son, I'm 55 years old, and I've never seen this in my life." It's incredible. So here's what's scary, police been beating us, you know, since antebellum, but to see white folks out there getting beat down alongside us...Pamela: Yeah, but we have to remember that white abolitionists were treated [just?] as badly, you know? During slavery, white abolitionists were killed, you know, just as readily as black people were. So it's really not that unusual. What's unusual is that they're out there, you know? They're out there holding signs saying "Black Lives Matter." I mean, that, I do think it's a watershed moment just for that. I think there are people who are being really cynical about the level of activism we're seeing, saying they're performing, you know, racial politics or whatever. All I know is that they hadn't done that in all of the days of my life, and so the fact that many are now openly expressing their horror in a way that they should have all along--I mean, no doubt, but the fact that they're doing it now, I welcome it, because, like, hello, welcome to, you know, your humanity, you know? We're all implicated in this, and black people should never have been the only ones to single out police brutality, racial inequality, the radical underrepresentation in all of these workplaces. That, you know, injustice affects all of us. And, I mean, I do understand that white people have benefitted from inequality, but they're also paying the price of inequality as well. I mean, you know, no justice no peace. There won't be peace in the land as long as you have a system that's so blatantly unjust. Zach: And so, you know, you talked about white folks coming out and supporting and having Black Lives Matter. I'ma tell you, Ms. Newkirk, when I knew it was a thing was when this Amish came out there. [both laugh] I said, "How did y'all even get the word?"Pamela: I guess what got me was the thousands of people in Berlin, you know? And in Paris and in London. You know? Australia. I mean, around the world, you know, the whole world is watching.Zach: And so, you know, we've talked a little bit about what we think this is. There are plenty of organizations, right, that are--and I say this as someone who, because of my network, I'm able to see... like, I know the diversity and inclusion consulting spaces and stuff out there, right? And I'm seeing there's a sharp uptick in demand for [?]. Pamela: Oh, my God. My phone is ringing off the hook and I don't do diversity training, and I tell them I don't do diversity training. "If you've read my book, you'd know how I felt about it." But I know a lot of people who do it and, you know, you're welcome to, like, speak to them. I'm all in for a candid conversation about what you can do differently to change the game, but I don't think it's something that you need someone in week after week--I mean, if that's gonna help you get to a place where you actually, you know, create opportunity for non-white people, if that's what it's gonna take, fine, but all of the studies have pretty much conclusively shown that training doesn't work. The numbers they report year after year show that training doesn't work too because most Fortune 500 companies have been doing this training for years and the numbers don't budge. And yeah, there's that Harvard study by Frank Dobbin that shows that these studies, especially when it's mandatory training, it triggers a backlash among white men who, instead of supporting diversity, it makes them even more resentful of it. And even worse, the study showed that 5 years after this training, the percentage of black women and Asian men and women actually decreased, their numbers in management. So why are companies doing the same things and expecting different results?Zach: And it's interesting because they're coming in and they're doing that, right? Like, the same training. I agree that ultimately--the whole idea of "We need to come and have a dialogue" is frustrating, because I feel like we've dialoguing--I'm 30, and I feel like we've been dialoguing for a long time.Pamela: Oh, my God. I've been in journalism and higher ed for more than 30 years, longer than you've been alive, and it's the same conversation. It's the same conversation from, you know, the 1960s, you know? And I guess the optimistic way of looking at it is--and, you know, after the uprising in the 1960s when the doors finally opened to people of color in fields that had historically excluded them, we did see, you know, the numbers jump up, you know, considerably. We saw more African-Americans, Latinos and others going to colleges, you know, entering fields that they had been excluded from, but as that progress became to metastastize, then we came into the '80s and we had this backlash against diversity, you know, under Reagan, and we had this, you know, systemic dismantling of every policy, every practice.Zach: All those social programs got gutted, yeah.Pamela: Yes, everything got gutted, and then the backlash--we're still living in that backlash to the progress that had been made. So, you know, the interesting thing is that all of these institutions can turn on a dime when they're ready, when they want to. Like, we're seeing companies now suddenly devote millions of dollars. I just heard Bain is gonna, you know, donate 100 million to, you know, black causes, and all of these things are suddenly happening, so it's so easy for them to turn it around, to open that spigot, but what has been lacking is the leadership, the will, and the intention.Zach: Yeah, yeah. And to your point, right, we've seen this organizations--a lot of these organizations, these big ones, like, they solve big problems. They solve really big problems. But the frustrating thing for me I think is that we treat racism as an abstract, right? So we'll say things like, "Well, we just need to open our hearts and minds." It's like, "We don't really actually need to open our hearts and minds. We just need to tie these things back into tangible outcomes." You know, create and add new policies that hold and drive accountability, increase transparency, and make certain demands and expectations, right? Like I said, I'm alluding back to the Saturday episode, but it's just fresh in my mind, because I think about the fact that Howard Bryant, he said, you know, "The reason you come in [and] you don't sexually harass somebody isn't--you know, it may be because you're a decent person." [both laugh] Pamela: It may be, and it may be because you'll get fired.Zach: You know that there's gonna be consequences and repercussions if you come in here acting stupid, harassing women or harassing anybody, saying something inappropriate. You know that.Pamela: Exactly. And do you need a training program to tell you that?Zach: I genuinely don't, and I loathe every single one of them. But you're right.Pamela: Yeah, and the thing is it's not even that I'm just so against the idea of training--even though I kind of am, but if there was anything, any proof, that they actually helped realize diversity, I'd be all about it, you know? There are measures that we know work, and I just don't understand why we keep doing something that has not borne fruit and we ignore the things that do, and that leads me to believe that there's not an honest intention to actually realize diversity.Zach: I agree. So some of it to me is, like, when you talk about, like, programming for diversity, equity and inclusion, you know, it's typically some type of instructor-led training, but a lot of studies continue to show that being able to have authentic conversations and build stories, again, tying and really having the critical conversations to tie goals and values to policy, is really what drives results, but we're just still not there yet. I'm curious, again, there are plenty of organizations who are just now trying to build, like, some type of office, right? Some type of council or department or whatever you want to call it. What would you say are some of the biggest mistakes folks--and when I say folks I mean organizations--commit when they try to launch initiatives or departments or groups like this?Pamela: Yeah, I think the biggest mistake is that the leadership sort of farms out this diversity issue to the most marginalized person in the organization, which is usually the diversity czar, whatever they call the diversity professional in that organization. Usually that person is the most marginalized executive of the team. It's usually a person of color or a woman, and they usually don't have much power, and so don't do that, and if you're going to do that, if you're gonna go that route, then you have to empower that person to actually get results. One thing that we've seen from studies, there was a study done a year ago, a survey of Fortune 500 D&I professionals, and I think it was somewhere around 65% did not even have access to the metrics, the diversity metrics, in the organization they work for. So how could they hope to fix a problem that they can't even see, right? So they're shooting in the dark. We know the most effective way to tackle a diversity problem is first to have transparent metrics across job categories, across, you know, bonus systems, any kind of award systems. Who's getting, who's not? Right? You know, you have to look under the hood and see what's actually happening in these companies, because we know with unconscious bias you can keep blaming everything on unconscious bias, but whether it's conscious or unconscious, let's see how it's working in your organization. Only then can you hope to even have an intervention, you know? Whether it's in your promotion system, it's your hiring system, it's looking at, you know, who's even being interviewed for positions, you know? What kind of outreach are you doing? So you have to have transparent metrics across the board. It is the first step, and once you do that then you can hope to have the kind of interventions that will allow you to actively address the problem. It's what--I do a chapter on what happened at Coca-Cola after they were sued for racial discrimination, and part of the settlement was having this task force that oversaw what they were doing to correct the problem, and over 5 years they were able to make substantial improvements through a system of transparent metrics and accountability.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I think when we talk about metrics--and it goes back just to, like, the lack of inclusion in this work, but when you talk about metrics it presumes that the people who are measuring understand what they're measuring for, right? But if you have a group--and there's plenty of articles, you know, op-eds, analysis, reports, all kinds of things about just how behind the majority population on matters of race, so then why would that same population then be responsible for measuring the nuances of race and diversity? [both laugh]Pamela: Are you saying the fox is guarding the chicken coop? Is that what you're saying? [laughs]Zach: Absolutely. Absolutely it is.Pamela: Well, yeah. So if you're not allowing the person charged with increasing diversity, if you're not giving them access to those numbers, you know, you're hiding something for one thing, right? And you're handcuffing them. There's no way that they can hope to correct those issues without having that kind of information. I mean, that's just basic to their job, but yet you talk to most D&I people and they don't have access to that.Zach: And what's also interesting about that is that--I don't know, there's different levels, right? Because the other piece, you talked about power, and I've been--Living Corporate has been a bit more intentional in calling out, like, the ethics of power and how all of these things work, right? Because you just rarely ever see the person who's really driving diversity, equity and inclusion be somebody that really has authority, and they're not respected in the space because typically their role is something internal. You know, they're not necessarily driving any type of revenue, so they're not gonna really be heard. And on top of that sometimes compounded is the complexity that you have organizations that will get somebody who is black or brown, but again make them junior, so not only do they not have the formal hierarchal power, they don't even have the social capital that comes with being white to really navigate and do their jobs well because they're, you know, often times tokenized.Pamela: Right. It really comes down to leadership, because in any organization people know what matters and what doesn't matter, right? You know if a person really has power or if they just have a title. Like, it's not hard to figure out, you know, who you have to respect and who you can ignore and, you know, what they stand for, so it really does come down to leadership and if leaders are gonna continue to farm this issue out to marginalized people, be they consultants or, you know, a diversity person who really has no power, you know? We're not gonna see any progress in that space. And, I mean, looking at all of these fields that have not changed in all of this time, that has to be willful, and so it's gonna take will to change that, and I hope that we're living in a time now where people realize that, you know, this is not a sustainable situation.Zach: It's not, and that actually leads me to my next question. I want to quote an excerpt from your book. "The quest for racial diversity has long been an uphill crusade, but now it's waged in a far more polarized climate in which many whites now claim they are being disenfranchised as others are afforded undue advantage. An NPR poll conducted in 2017 found that 55% of white Americans believe that they are discriminated against while, tellingly, a lower percentage said that they actually have experienced discrimination. A Reuters survey in 2017 found that 39% of whites polled agreed with the statement that quote, "White people are currently under attack in this country," end quote." So I'm quoting this because the reality of this, I believe, is still showing up in 2020 in that a significant percentage of white D&I experts, quote-unquote, they have the opinion that white folks, particularly white men, need to be included, because if you don't include them, then you're essentially violating your own principles by excluding them. [both laugh] And so I'm curious, like, especially as we see an uptick in focus on black lives and really working--you know, there's a lot of folks downloading and buying books on anti-racism and, like, you know, there's really a push for that right now. Do you see this trend increasing?Pamela: Oh, definitely, but we're just weeks into it. [laughs] So I can't tell you where it's headed, you know? But I see that as a good thing, you know, because for years, for decades, you know, African-Americans and other scholars of color and journalists have been doing this work, and often times we're preaching to the choir, you know? And now to see so many whites leaning in to this scholarship and to the idea of anti-racism, not only, you know, relating to members of, you know, skinheads or the Ku Klux Klan, but could implicate the average white person, you know? Reading Robin DiAngelo's work, White Fragility, she talks about the ways in which whites perpetuate white supremacy, but they do it in a way that they feel they're just neutral in it. They don't see how they are helping by either their silence or by just holding these deeply embedded ideas about race and merit and who actually deserves the kind of privilege that many whites enjoy. Like, are they African-Americans? Maybe there are a few who they see as deserving the kind of privilege that they enjoy, but that's the exception, not the rule. So these ideas are so deeply embedded in the white American psyche that it will take, you know, some time to kind of dismantle an idealogy that has been rooted in the history of this country, right, from the very beginning, and these ideas did not bubble up from the ground up. They were taught in places like Harvard and Princeton and Yale and Columbia University, you know? So this whole idea of science, you know, was rooted in this notion of African inferiority and European superiority.Zach: Yeah, measuring skull size and all that kind of stuff.Pamela: Yeah, so we're not that far removed from that. That idealogy is still very much a part of the American ethos, and until that is exposed and examined by the people who hold those ideas, we're gonna continue to see it play out in so many ways.Zach: And to your point, when we talk about racism--there are folks who I have, colleagues, associates, whatever, right, and we'll talk about racism, and a lot of times we'll talk about it, like, in forms--like, "It's out there." Like, it's "out there." Like, that's why George Floyd--because of systemic racism, that's why George Floyd was murdered in the street on camera with no accountability until we had riots, but the challenge and I think the next step as we look at this work, to your point around, like, really addressing and interrogating it, is analyzing what the same systems that allow those types of things to happen, the Amy Coopers of the world, those systems persist here too in work. Pamela: Exactly, and it's being able to kind of position yourself within the space. Like, where are you? Like, how do you benefit from this system, and what do you do with your privilege? And it's not enough just not to be actively racist. Like, in what ways are you anti-racist? In what ways are you working to dismantle injustice? And that's the next step for the so-called decent whites who I don't think are, you know, actively racist, but they're complicit in a racially injustice system through their silence, through their inaction. They work in these spaces, and they're not using their forums and their positions to tackle something that is so persistent and perverse.Zach: You know, I just started really thinking about, again, like, connecting historical racist idealogies and beliefs in America and then, like, how they show up at work. And so, like, an example that I think about, and I'm not a researcher and, like, I've talked to some friends and, like, I really want to put some research together on this, but, like, when you think about the history of black women and how they've been treated in this country and how essentially--there's been all kinds of writing on how there was a belief that essentially black women--black people across the board, but black women specifically--they don't feel pain in the same waysa that white women do, right?Pamela: Ugh, right. The black superwoman, yeah.Zach: Right? So in fact a lot of the understandings that we have about the female anatomy comes from the abuse of black female slaves. But this idea that, you know, black women are just tougher and, like, stronger inherently or biologically, you know? And we see that in sports, right? Like, Serena Williams is, like, a classic example of that and also why she wasn't heard and she almost died when she had her child, but I think that mentality and that attitude, it persists in the workplace as well, and it shows up in the workplace by way of black women being overworked and underappreciated.Pamela: Right. Well, you know, it's what history has demanded of us, right? We had to be stronger. Like, what was the alternative to that? Being beaten more? Being raped more? So paradoxically it's partly true that that's why we're still here.Zach: Right, by means of survival.Pamela: Right, but, you know, we haven't been given the opportunity to show weakness and to cry when things happen, things go wrong, you know? That fragility that may be afforded a white woman doesn't work for us.Zach: And I think we could find, like, similar... I guess my point is, like, that the meta-narrative doesn't stop, and so when you talk about systemic racism--so I'm the son of an English teacher, so, like, I'm very sensitive about words, right? So if you're gonna use a word like "systemic," then be comfortable with interrogating the concept that whatever you're talking about reaches as far as you can see and beyond that. And so, you know, when we talk about, like, we just talked about science and a lot of the racist concepts in considering that black folks were inherently inferior.Pamela: Right. And, I mean, those ideas are still debated, you know, just--like it was, like, 10 years ago, maybe it was a little more than that, when Newsweek and Time had, like, this big debate going about, you know, the bell curve.Zach: People still talk about the bell curve.Pamela: People still do, and, I mean, it's still with us, even if it's not as polite today to [?], it's still very much with us. Even if people don't say it, that idealogy persists.Zach: Exactly, and so it's like, "Okay, not only was this--" Like, at one point in time this was rigorous, firmly accepted, widely, globally accepted academic truth, and now it's waned into being impolite conversation...Pamela: Precisely, but still true. [laughs]Zach: Right, but still believed to be true.Pamela: But it's PC to now say it.Zach: Right, so it's not unreasonable then to believe that majority counterparts presume or have some conscious or unconscious beliefs that black people are inferior, and that comes up in language like, "They're not as strategic," or "They don't think as critically," or whatever, but it's subtle, and [?]--Pamela: Or that they're natural athletes or natural artists. Like, nothing comes out of a thinking place. [laughs]Zach: Right. "They're creative, but they're not strategic," right? And it shows up in a lot of genteel language, but you talked about Robin DiAngelo and you talked about white fragility. You know, we had her on the podcast a little while ago, and--you shared it actually on Twitter. Thank you for that.Pamela: I did, because I think it's so timely.Zach: It is. And when we talk about white fragility--and for the sake of just kind of level-setting, right, it's essentially the low fluency and resilience white folks have with regards to engaging matters of race, especially discussing where they may be the perpetrators of conscious or unconscious racist behaviors.Pamela: But then think about it. There are no penalties for them not knowing so much about the history of race in this country, you know? I've written about this. You could do a doctorate, a post-doc, and never have to meaningfully confront the history of race in this country, you know? You don't have to know about what happened to the Irish and what happened to, you know, Italians and Greek people at the turn of the century and how, you know, they were demeaned. You don't have to know how race operates and how it is just, like, so deeply embedded in the whole system of this country, and so because you may know who some of the major contributors to American history were who happen to be African-American, they never have to know. They don't have to know who Fredrick Douglass is, Booker T. Washington. Like, all of the people who I grew up just knowing because my parents taught me, I would never be penalized on an SAT for not knowing that. So they've been able to skate through life without understanding why it is that we have this kind of systemic imbalance around race, and they think it's because of merit. They think it's because they worked harder. They think, "Well, slavery was abolished in the 1860s, so what's the problem? You've had all this time." They don't look at the ways in which that system is still very much actively working against any kind of racial equality, you know, racial justice. And so when you're, like, just ignorant and not penalized for that ignorance, like, it's not totally the fault--you know, I have white students who sometimes are in tears in my class. I teach a class that examines the history of racial portrayals of marginalized groups, and they say "How is it that I'm in college and I never learned any of this history?" Like, it's not their fault, you know? Because only those who choose to elect--and these are electives that they would take to learn about this--like, it's not required. These courses are so marginalized, and they're so important for white people to have a sense of all of the ways in which they have been privileged throughout history without knowing that they're twicely just ignorant. Zach: And to your point though, right, you have this group who--so, like, let's talk about the workplace. So you have this group that has never had to really critically engage around race, never had to engage around how their own behaviors have been harmful to folks who don't look like them. Now all of a sudden, no matter [?]--like you said, this just really got started, right? We're just a couple weeks in, but let's say this goes on for two years, whatever, you know, suddenly there's going to be--you go from, like, not moving at all to almost running at a rabbit's pace, and I'm curious about with the current client focusing on black people, black experiences and really continuing to unpack that, how would you advise, like, a majority-white leadership space mitigate burn-out? Because they just don't have--again, we talk about white fragility, they don't have the bandwidth and they don't have the cardiovascular, right, to keep up.Pamela: Well, you know, I think they do, you know? I think these institutions have been so afraid to engage these matters and now they're seeing the consequences of kind of their hands-off policy, you know? We've made the progress we have made due to uprisings in the 1960s, because all of that scholarship was out there then, but no one listened until buildings started building and, you know, people started feeling kind of unsafe, and then suddenly everyone leaned in [?], and I think we're in that same kind of space right now where I think people are honestly leaning in--I mean, I've gotten notes over the past week from colleagues who, you know, kind of didn't really--I guess they saw me as kind of a radical, and now all of a sudden they're seeing my ideas as mainstream. So they're writing me like, "Wow, you know, you were prescient." It's like, "No, I wasn't. You just weren't paying attention." Everything that we're seeing has been happening all along. Nothing is new. The only thing that has changed is that white people are suddenly acknowledging the truth that has been with us all of this time. So now that they are, I do believe that we can begin to--first of all, there's so much out there. There's so many scholars of color and professionals of color and people who are ready to, like, get in there, right, and contribute to all of these institutions that have ignored them, devalued them, you know? Not hired them. You know, these institutions are about to be enriched, you know, if they truly embrace the diversity that is available, you know? Well-trained, well-educated, just ready, ready to jump in and help these organizations become more just places, and I do believe that if they continue to lean in in the ways they have over the past few weeks, I think a lot of good can come from this moment.Zach: And do you think--let me ask this then. So do you think that will offset the amount of folks who are uncomfortable and end up, you know, going elsewhere or--Pamela: What do you mean?Zach: Yeah, so what I mean is, like, do you think the amount of folks that come in and they deliver learning and folks grow, and they increase black and brown engagement through hiring and of course, like, retaining the talent that they have, do you think that will offset the amount of white folks who just find all of this offensive and disengage?Pamela: You mean like the 57 police officers in Buffalo that resigned because two of their colleagues were suspended for, like, critically injuring an elderly white man? You know, I don't think that's gonna happen, you know? Because first of all people need employment, and yeah, you know, I think that you're always gonna have that percentage of, you know, just straight up white supremacists who are not going to be in spaces where there are people of color, and, you know, good riddance, but I don't think that's gonna be the biggest roadblock to having diverse environments, because I don't think they're gonna give up all of these fields, you know? I don't think they're just gonna suddenly say, "Oh, here. Take my privileged position at this law firm or in this company," you know? But I think people can learn to work together. In fact, I think that is the best way to condition people to deal with different kinds of people is just to put them in the same space where they see that, "Oh, this person is not, like, a Martian. This person actually has kind of similar values," and then they begin to see that there was nothing that frightening to begin with. But I think when you continue--you know, we live in a rigidly segregated society, and most white people don't have to be in spaces where there are people of color, and particularly people of color who are peers, you know? They may be in the mail room or, you know, delivering their food, but to have people of color who are your peers, many white people don't have that experience, and they certainly don't have that experience of having people of color who are neighbors, who go to the same church, who go to the same--we live in such segregated worlds, and that kind of segregation becomes a self-replicating situation in the workplace, right, because people hire who they know, they hire who their friends recommend, they hire from this very closed off world, and until you can break that up, you know, and have a far more diverse workplace, you're gonna continue to have that kind of self-replication.Zach: Ms. Newkirk, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Pamela: Well, you know, I guess the thing that I'm most hopeful about is that there are successful models that can be readily replicated, and if institutions truly want to embrace diversity they need to just stop doing what they've been doing and lean into models that have proven to be successful.Zach: Well, there you have it, y'all. This has been Living Corporate. Like, we do this every single week. We're having real talk in a corporate world, and we center and we amplify marginalized voices at work by having black and brown thought leaders of all types of varieties on the platform. You make sure you check us out. Just Google Living Corporate. I ain't about to shout out all the places we on 'cause we all over Barack Obama's internet, so just type in Living Corporate and you'll catch us. 'Til next time, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Pamela Newkirk, award-winning journalist, educator, speaker and author. Peace, y'all.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with Mary-Frances Winters, the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., about black equity and power. Mary-Frances shares some of the top things she believes that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts and explains her perspective on why chief inclusion/people/culture officers are typically white folks. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about The Winters Group!Connect with Mary-Frances on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2Bs8pZBhttps://bit.ly/2ZXoMYlhttps://bit.ly/3csD9qbLearn more about The Winters Group on their website. http://bit.ly/33pqotqCheck out the Inclusion Solution blog.https://bit.ly/2yX2quXYou can connect with The Winters Group on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2WrDjtghttp://bit.ly/3d69LYhhttps://bit.ly/2XUy6t7Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, it's Tuesday. The day of this recording is May 4th, so May the 4th be with you. We have incredible guests every single time we come on, and today is no different, because what we're trying to do is what we always do, right? Which is center and amplify marginalized voices in the workplace. Now, I would like to think Living Corporate is a little bit unique in that we're having these conversations, but not only are we having these conversations that are centering marginalized voices, but we're having these conversations with marginalized identity groups, right? So a lot of times when you think about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, it's folks who don't look like me using fairly esoteric, like, heady language to describe things that they really don't experience, right? Like, not to put too fine a point on it. Just look... I'm just gonna be honest, right? Just gonna be a straight shooter, okay? And I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have incredible guests that have not only the lived experience but have the practical knowledge and expertise to talk about real subjects, and so that's why our tagline for Living Corporate is real talk for a corporate world. Now, look, some of y'all have been listening to us and been rocking with us for a while, but every episode is somebody's first episode, so I just want to make sure I kind of level set a little bit. So with all that being said, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Mary-Frances Winters. Mary-Frances Winters is the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a global organization development and diversity and inclusion consulting firm with over 35 years--count 'em, y'all, 35... more than I've been alive--more than 35 years of experience. She truly believes that diversity and inclusion work is her “passion and calling.” She's been dubbed a thought leader in the field for the past three decades and has impacted over hundreds of organizations and thousands of individuals with her thought-provoking messages, and her approach to diversity and inclusion. Ms. Winters is a master strategist with experience in strategic planning, change management, diversity, organization development, training and facilitation, systems thinking--yo, shout-out to systems thinking--and qualitative and quantitative research methods, and she has extensive experience in working with senior leadership teams to drive organizational change. My goodness, gracious. With all that being said, Mary-Frances, welcome to the show.Mary-Frances: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You're definitely dating me, but that's all right. I'll take it. [laughing]Zach: I apologize. I wasn't trying to date you. I was trying to speak to the depth and breadth of the work that you've been doing, 'cause I think a lot of times it's easy, you know--like, pausing on, just, like, this conversation, but kind of, like, thinking about generational tensions, right? So I think there's, like, a lot of frustrations sometimes with folks who--like, millennials, you know, folks, like, in their early 30s or even, like, mid-20s to late-20s crowd who just think that, like, all of these frustrations that we're seeing now are new, right, but there have been folks who have built foundations before us that allow us to actually move forward, so it's just incredible that you've been in this space and doing this for a significant amount of time. I don't believe that should be taken lightly at all.Mary-Frances: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I accept it with honor and respect, so thank you so much.Zach: Thank you so much. So how are you doing during this time? Like I said, we're recording this on May 4th. How are you and your loved ones?Mary-Frances: We're well, we're well. We're doing well. You know, it is unprecedented times. It's very, very difficult times for the world, but, you know, we're doing well, and thank you for asking.Zach: So let's get right into it. Diversity, equity and inclusion work is about marginalized identities, yet the loudest voices in this space tend to be those of the majority, right? So, like, when you think about these big, big organizations and you look at, like, the chief inclusion officer or the chief people officer or the chief culture officer, they're typically white folks. Why do you think that is?Mary-Frances: Well, I don't think that the dominant group sees diversity and inclusion as being about marginalized folks. They see it as being about everybody. "We have to include everybody," and so some of what my frustration has been, as you mentioned, 35 years, and so when we used to talk about it, you know, in the days of affirmative action, they were protected groups, right? So the initiatives were targeted towards those protected groups. When we started to talk about it as being diversity, then it broadened and everybody got included in diversity, and the group that gets least talked about now are black folks, because they don't want to talk about black people. So I don't think that the dominant group that controls the narrative, I don't think that they see it about being about marginalized identities only, right? And so the focus may or may not be there, you know, depending, and so we did a session for a client not too long ago to talk about the relevancy of white men in the organization. So, you know, you've got to be inclusive of white men. [both laughing] Yeah, so that's why I think--you asked me why I think that is? That's why I think that is, yeah. Because in the corporate world, we don't even use the word "marginalized identities." So it's not a new term in sociology, but let me tell you, 35 years in this business, it's a new term in the corporate world. It's starting to be used, and I think it is because of the influence of the millennials. We've been doing some work in some organizations that, you know, normally--some of these older, traditional organizations have been around 150 years and still got baby boomers at the helm, right? Some of these other organizations have been around 15, 20 years, they've got a lot of millennials at the helm. Those organizations are using this language, the social justice language. The traditional organizations? Not so much.Zach: [laughs] So one, thank you. I'm really curious--that really is a good segue into the next question I have for you about just you showing up doing this work as a black woman, and not to, like--again, not to age you, we're talking about the fact that--[Mary-Frances laughs] It's not like you're a black woman who just graduated from college and, you know, you're in this space, or you just finished B school, like, you're someone who has seen this space grow and evolve and change and shift and permutate, you know, various times over over the past three and a half decades, and so I'm curious, like, what does it look like for you to operate in this space, and then specifically going into the example that you just provided, how do you respond to narratives like that? That, you know, white men need to feel just as included as black men or other marginalized groups?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So as a black woman in this work, a cisgender heterosexual black woman, baby boomer, there are different ways it impacts me. So one way that it impacts me is "Oh, yeah, let's get Mary-Frances because she can bring the voice of black folks." Um, no. Mary-Frances brings her voice, not all black folks, right? That's one way. This other way is, "Gee, we really can't hire The Winters Group to do this--" This is a black person talking now. "Because you're black and I'm black, and, you know, the optics of it, it looks like we might be giving you, you know, preferential treatment." The third way is when I stand in front of a group, to the question about, you know, white men, I do--if my question is gonna get across, I do in some ways have to disarm white men, because they're gonna--they see me coming in with my sister locks and, you know, "This black woman is gonna come in and she's gonna tell us, you know, how racist we are. She's gonna make us feel bad," and so what I've learned over the years is that you've gotta get them to like you first. No matter what they've gotta like you, right? And they have to think that the message resonates. So I learned the language. I learned the language of the organization. I connect my message to whatever their business plan is, whatever their business strategy is. You know, I connect it to that, because, you know, you're already coming in being black, being a woman. So those are two, you know, marginalized groups, historically marginalized groups. And so yeah, so there are different ways. And, you know, we talk about code switching, right? So we have to code switch a lot of times in order to get the work done, particularly in corporate spaces. Now, I don't know if you've noticed--well, I'm sure you've noticed because you know my colleague, Brittany J. Harris, who is the vice president of The Winters Group, and we're doing a series right now in our inclusion solution blog on decolonizing DEI work, and, you know, part of that--and I wrote a couple of weeks ago about decolonizing particularly the corporate world with, you know, corporate speak. So you come in and they have to have a business case, and the business case has to be "How does this help my business, you know, perform better?" That's, like, the classic corporate business case, and that's kind of centering this capitalist narrative, right? We're about the profits, and you can [show?] me by hiring black folks and hiring women, whoever else you want me to hire. If you can show me that that can help me to sell more whatever I'm trying to sell, then it's okay. So I think that, you know, to some extent--you know, I was just talking to a very large client just before this--I will not name that client. Very old client, 150, 160 years old, you know, very old. [laughing] You know, middle of the country, and they're just trying to get this stuff off the ground and you come in talking about marginalized groups and whatnot to a bunch of these white men, they're just not gonna--it's just not gonna happen. So it's this delicate balance, Zach, of on one hand, you know, you have to be able to engage the groups that they listen, and on the other hand you're trying to dismantle, you know, this dominant sort of narrative that doesn't necessarily work, and it hasn't worked. 35 years, 36 years, all of the same issues that I was teaching and talking about 36 years ago are the same. As a matter of fact, my book Black Fatigue will be coming out in February. Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit comes out in February, and I have a chapter in that book, Chapter 3, called Then is Now, and so I go back and I look at data from whatever point you want to take. You can take it from 1965, 1975, it doesn't really matter what you want to take it. When you look at our data and our statistics, we have not made progress. We're stuck, and we're at this standstill. Brown vs. the Board of Education was 1954, which was desegregate schools. Our schools are more segregated today than then. You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You know, all of this legislation, housing. In 1975, 43% of black people owned their own homes. In 2019, 43% of black people own their own homes. The net worth--and, you know, net worth is, like, what you're worth, right? Net worth. A single black woman's net worth is $500, versus the net worth of a white woman, single white woman, which is [$5000?], still low. The net worth of white people, at 150 something thousand dollars, is 10 times that of a black person, and it follows even if you look at college-educated. So somebody who has a PhD who is a black woman college professor with a PhD makes 20% less than a white man who has a PhD and 7 to 8% less than a woman who has a PhD, and so all of these inequities--and I'm using those just as an example--is about Then is Now, that we haven't really turned the corner. So we're fatigued. [?] And it's particularly tiring for me because, like you said, I've been doing it for over 35 years. [both laughing] I'm tired.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we've had conversations about that on Living Corporate, and we cite the study Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain that really goes into dispelling the myth that higher education will, you know, somehow close the wealth gap, and it hasn't and it doesn't. So let's talk about this. There's a variety of folks that we've had on Living Corporate who have said, you know, diversity and inclusion, corporate diversity and inclusion, is inherently [anti]-black, not just in its external doings but at the internal politics. Do you have any thoughts on the voracity of that position?Mary-Frances: Well, society is inherently anti-black, so by extension the corporate world is inherently anti-black. We live in a society that has historically and continues to be anti-black. I don't know--yeah, so I agree. [both laugh] I mean, right? So yeah, you know, D&I is inherently anti-black. It is because that's the society--you know, when I wrote this book Black Fatigue and I was telling people about this, "Oh, please write about black and brown fatigue and, you know, all deference to indigenous people and native people and Latinos and everybody, right?" But the black experience in the United States has been different than any of those other experiences, and because of that the stereotypes and the marginalization plays out differently, and so I really felt a need--even though [?]--I show statistics for Latinos and Asians, you know, as well in the book, but I really wanted to focus on how this is playing out for black folks, because let me tell you. I say--you know, [?]--race is diversity's four-letter word, and particularly when you talk about black folks, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about the black and whiteness of it. "Let's talk about Asians. Let's talk about Latinos," right? So this anti-black--so that's one way anti-black plays out. You know, we have to include the other groups that we have [?]. I had a call with a client just on Friday, and they talked about how the psychologist or sociologist, whoever we were quoting--I forgot who it was--was black, and so we were like, "Uh, yeah," and they said, "Well, you know, perhaps we need to get some other experts included in this data set." What's that about? "Are there some Asian people who have spoke on this too?" [laughs] So yeah, I mean, we live in an anti-black world, and by extension our corporations are anti-black. I mean, look at things like the recent legislation around the CROWN Act. Why does anybody freaking care how I wear my hair? Why do we have to have legislation for people to be able to wear their hair--for black people to be able to wear their hair the way they want to wear their hair. You know, the young man wrestler, right, and they made him--Zach: Yes, made him cut his hair. His dreads.Mary-Frances: His dreads, right. Exactly. Right there. You know? I mean, why do you care? You don't have to like--what I say to folks is, "I don't care if you like it. You don't have to like my hair. I'm not asking you to like my hair." [laughing] But, I mean, are we still in a slavery, there's no freedom, that we can't even wear our hair the way we want to wear our hair? You know what, I heard about hair 36 years ago when I was in the corporate world and I had a very short afro, and one day a colleague--wasn't even my boss, a colleague--comes in my office and says, "Will your hair grow?" And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Well, you oughta let it," and he walked out of my office.Zach: Wow.Mary-Frances: That's why I left corporate. One of the reasons anyway. But anyway, so yes, is it an anti-black world? Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. Unfortunately, you know, it is. And when you say that--and the problem is when you say that to white people they think that you're calling them a racist, and I'm not. I'm not. What I'm saying is the very foundation and structure upon which our various societies and the way we think and the policies and all those things are based on anti-black sentiments, anti-black beliefs if you will. Zach: You know, I'm really curious about, like--because you're right, we had Brittany Harris on the show some time ago, and we were talking about decolonization and dismantling and deconstructing systems, right? So it was more so about, like, kind of, like, trying to make some shifts and some headway in this work, because like you said, there's a lot of conversations that have just been happening, they've been recycling for years, and I'm curious to know, what are you seeing some other, like, DEI groups or, like, kind of names, things that they're saying that you're like, "Man, we've been doing that." Like, "We've been working on that," or "That's not new. Like, y'all think it's new, but it's not new." Like, does anything like that stick out to you?Mary-Frances: Yeah, I think that, you know, the whole idea of, you know, oppression, marginalization, privilege, all of those kinds of things I think have been out there for--you know, for a long time. You know, we can all remember--those of us in this work--Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege. Judith Katz, my colleague, did something on heterosexual privilege back in the '90s, and the Peggy McIntosh book was back in the '70s. You know, Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, which shows, you know, bias. We now call it unconscious bias, but Jane Elliott, you know, put that out in, I don't know, the '70s, '60s or '70s. I was using that video--now that you've already dated me I'll just keep going with it--but I was using that video [laughing]--Zach: I'm so sorry. [laughing]Mary-Frances: No, no, no. You're fine, I'm just teasing you. [laughing] You know, I was using that video in the '80s, right? And now I hear people like, "Oh, do you know about Jane Elliott's video Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes?" And that's the other thing, [?] why I wrote Black Fatigue is because--and I'm not saying this is about millennials. This is not about generations at all thinking this stuff is new. This is about folks who are, like, in my age group to who this is all, like, a revelation, right? "We didn't know." So here, case in point. We know that COVID-19 is disproportionately impacting particularly black people, and when it came out, this proportionality, it was like, "Oh, wow, we have health disparities?" This is not new. I mean, these health disparities have been--they have been well-researched, well-written about, and they continue. They have not improved. Even middle-class black women are twice as likely to die in childbirth. You know, these are not new, and so that's what's part of, you know, the frustrating thing. You know, I really respect some of the newer folks who are coming into this space, and I think that they're doing remarkable work, and I'm hoping that perhaps they can put a different spin--I know Brittany, as a millennial, has brought definitely a different spin to our work. When Brittany came on board, which was, like, four years ago now I guess, we had started to talk about the intersection of social justice and corporate speak, because, you know, the language was all different, right? Everything was different. So we talk about mapping the intersection. What is the intersection of social justice and corporations? So corporations worried about the bottom line. Why should they be worried about, you know, social justice as well, and how do we get that languge? So I think at The Winters Group we're a little bit further ahead of mapping that intersection of saying that it's not one or the other. It really is a both and, because if you help to alleviate the social ills of this world or even of this country or even of the place that you operate your business, your business is going to be better.Zach: No, I'm right there with you, and I really think that segues well into this next question, which is just, you know, what trends do you see in this work from a thought leadership perspective, and if you were to kind of look across the landscape of this work and when you think about workplace equity as a whole, you know, where are the biggest places you think we have to grow?Mary-Frances: So where I see that we have places to grow in this work is fixing organizational cultures so that they truly are inclusive and we're not just using the word, that we're not just saying that we're inclusive, because the surveys that we do inside corporations would suggest that the cultures are not inclusive, particularly--PARTICULARLY--for black folks. Particularly. Now, when we do surveys with Latinos and Asians, culturally they may not be having a good experience, but they're not gonna tell us that because culturally they don't talk ill of--and I'm stereotyping, I know I'm stereotyping big time right now, but for the most part Latinos and Asians don't speak ill of their employers. That's a cultural thing, right? And so they're gonna say, you know, everything is good. We, you know, coming from a history of descension, a history of sort of laying it out there. You know, "No justice, no peace." Zach: Give us us free, yes.Mary-Frances: Yeah, right. We're willing to say, "No, this is not a good experience," if we answer the survey. We did a big survey for a corporation recently, and not many black people answered the survey. So then I did a focus group with them and they said, "Oh, no, we're not answering that survey. They can figure out who we are because there's only about 100 of us in the whole company." So the point is that organizational cultures, the traditional organizational cultures, are designed for dominant groups. They always have been. In the '70s when I was in the corporate world, they decided to bring in a whole bunch of black people, a whole bunch of black professionals, because they didn't have enough, and they just said, "Let's bring 'em all in here." Within a year, every single one of them were gone except one. There was probably about 30 people. Every single one of them left because the culture was not friendly, was not conducive. There were micro-aggressions all day long. [?] I told you about the micro-aggression about my hair. Here's another one. So the company sent me to some banquet or something, and I was sitting there--and I got to represent the company, so I was sitting at the head table, and we had a little fruit cup, you know, as our appetizer or something, and so the person sitting next to me said, "Oh, look at that, you have more watermelon in your fruit cup than anybody at the table." Now, why would you even say that? What would even make you part your lips to speak like that? Yeah. So you know what I did? I said, "Oh, you like watermelon? Would you like mine? I'll trade with you." [both laughing] So my point is that hasn't changed in 30 however many ever years that is. That hasn't changed. And so, you know, where we still need to grow is to really get at the culture, and the only way we're gonna get at the culture is to hold people accountable, and because the experience that people have in their organizations are 1:1 with their direct manager, right, and so if the direct manager is not talking the talk, walking the walk, it's not happening for that person. We often times focus on the top leadership, top of the house--"Let's start at the top of the house." I say that we need to focus on first-line leadership, those individuals who are most likely to have the greatest span of control. First-line leaders have more reports than the CEO. The CEO probably has six or seven direct reports, right? All the senior vice presidents, and then it goes down from there. So the biggest span of control and the biggest opportunity for change is at that first level, and we often times don't work with that first level of leadership because they don't have the budget for it or, you know, all of these other excuses. So I really think--and I've been saying this for years, so I don't know if this is a trend or not, but I've been saying this for years, that we have to get to that level. The other places that we still need to grow is pay inequity. You know, pay inequity for women and, you know, women of color in that equation too. That's an easy fix. You look at your data and you see who--if you have a disparity with women not being paid the same amount, then you fix it. You see, this is why if organizations wanted to do it, they could. Any aspect of diversity. If they wanted to do it, they would absolutely do it. So those are areas, I mean, in just terms of very tactical places, in terms of--cultures are really, really hard to change. So I had a call with a client this morning, and they had a question on the survey--they wanted me to review their survey. We have our own survey, but they got somebody else to do their survey, but they wanted me to review the questions. Here's one of the questions. "I fit in well at this organization."Zach: Hm, that's a good question.Mary-Frances: Huh? No, that's a bad question.Zach: Talk to me. Educate me why it's a bad question.Mary-Frances: Okay. Because it's about fitting in. Fitting in is about assimilation. Fitting in is about "I fit in," meaning that--Zach: I'm adjusting myself.Mary-Frances: I'm adjusting myself. I fit in, right? I mean, you still may get at it, but the whole idea of--even putting the language out there. So that's, you know, colonizing language, "fit," you know? Because what do we say when we hire somebody? We say, "Oh, yeah, they'd be a really good fit," and what "a really good fit" means is what? "They're like us."Zach: It's interesting, because the reason I was saying it's a good question is because I know a lot of--I know for me I would be like, "No."Mary-Frances: Right, exactly, and that's what they're hoping to get, but you see how the message could be from the other side, that you need to fit in.Zach: It absolves the organization of responsibility and onus in creating an inclusive work environment for that person.Mary-Frances: Exactly. So I said, "Why don't you have the question "I feel included at this organization?"" Right? I mean, you're gonna get the same answer, right, but you're now using language that is language that's about inclusion rather than fitting in, because fitting in is basically saying, you know, "Yeah, we need you to fit in. We need you to be like us." Zach: Okay, okay. Let's talk about black male presenting identities in this space, right? I could be speaking selfishly, but it seems as if they're still not highlighted with the same level of attention or nuance of some other people groups. Am I being fair? And, you know, if you agree with that, then could you kind of talk to me about why you think that may be?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So, you know, this is so interesting, because the chapter in Black Fatigue, it's called I Can't Breathe: Black Men's Fatigue, and I also have a chapter in the book called Say My Name: Black Women's Fatigue. So for the black women's chapter it's almost, like, twice as long as the black man's chapter, right? And I'm like, "Wait a minute." I said, "Is it because I'm a black woman and, you know, I relate to the experiences more?" So yes, and I'll tell you--this is the absolute truth. I am not kidding. I have been wrestling with this all weekend because I want to modify the chapter on black men to bring more of that voice. So with black women I could talk about, you know, #BlackGirlMagic, right? You know, what's the analogous movement for black men?Zach: There's nothing that big. I would say, you know, you have Black Boy Joy, but it's not as big, and there's some tension in that because a lot of black men are like, "Well, I'm not a boy. Don't call me a child. I'm a man." You know? So I'm not sure. That's a good question.Mary-Frances: So I write in the book about two experiences, two stories I tell. One story is about somebody who actually now--he has a degree in human resources, but he prefers to work with his hands, and he comes over and he tunes up our air conditioning in the spring and changes the filters and all that kind of stuff. So he was over the other day, and he worked for a large heating and air conditioning organization and was doing really well. They had him in their commercials on TV and everything and, you know, he said he just couldn't take it anymore. We would talk about entrepreneurship while he was still working there, 'cause he knew I was an entrepreneur and everything. So he finally left, and he's been on his own for 18 months, and he works 14, 16 hours a day. Nicest guy in the world. Got a young family, you know? Just really very customer service-oriented. He said, "Yeah, you know, when I go knocking on the doors, I've got to know how I'm coming," he said, "Because when they see that I'm black, you know, they get a little afraid." Ryan is all of 5'6" and, you know, maybe 150 pounds. He's a slightly built man. Zach: Slight guy, yeah.Mary-Frances: So he said, you know, "Why is this? Why do I have to exist like this, where, you know, I'm just trying to live and I'm just trying to, you know, run a business?" And he ran into--while he was in the corporate world, they told him one time that he couldn't get promoted because he was so good at his job that they needed him to stay in that job. That's why he couldn't be promoted, 'cause he was so good. [both laugh] Another time he was told that--he was promoting a particular service that they had, the air conditioning or whatever, and they said, "You're selling too much of this service." That's why he couldn't be promoted. So that's one. Another black guy, who had been with this organization for over 30 years, very well respected externally because he was in manufacturing and he has this particular knack for--he was called the turn-around man. He has a particular knack for going into a manufacturing operation and being able to, you know, whip it into shape, you know? The key performance indicators, the KPIs and all those kinds of things. I mean, he's a guru at that, right? [Lead?] manufacturing and all of that kind of stuff. And they would always send him to the place that was performing the worst, and he would go. So then they decided they were gonna put him in D&I, and this was after 30 years [?], so he's out of his element in D&I. He's gonna do his KPIs, he's gonna do his, you know, manufacturing operations. I think he turned just a few people off, right? So he ended up retiring early. No retirement party after all this. He's doing so well on the outside because he's got articles, he's got--he's well-known in this space, but he was kind of forced out of the organization because somebody didn't like, you know, what he said. So I think, you know, black men, one of the [?] chapters in my book, I have Tall, Dark, and Handsome, right? So when a white man is tall, he's paid more. When a black man is tall, he's actually paid less. The darker-skinned the black male man is, the less that he gets paid, right? Lighter-skinned black men get paid more than dark-skinned black men. So you take a black man who is tall and dark-skinned, you know, that feeds a whole lot of stereotypes, right? You know, and the handsome, you know, like I said in my book, black women [think they're handsome?, laughing] but the majority group probably doesn't. Not so much, right? But you're penalized. You know, black men are penalized, you know, for being tall. Black men are penalized for being darker-skinned. So my son, who is--he went to Harvard, Duke and Princeton, he studied under Cornell West. He is now a tenured associate professor of religion at Duke University. So when he was a kid he was always big. Joe's about, like, 6'5", so he was always big, and they always told him, you know, "You're gonna hurt the other kids. You gotta, you know--" So he's this gentle giant now because he was told, you know, "Don't be too aggressive." Up until the fourth grade there was something wrong with Joe all the time. We had to see a psychologist. You know, he just wasn't adjusting right, and he just da-da-da-da. All of these things. You know, he was in a white school district and usually the only black kid, one of two in his class. So in the fourth grade he had a teacher, he was a white male teacher, who said, "You know what? I think the only thing wrong with Joe is that he's brilliant." He said, "That's the only thing I think is wrong with him." And as soon as Joe started to see himself as brilliant and everybody else started to see himself as brilliant, guess what? Joe become brilliant, and voila, Harvard, Duke, Princeton grad, but if somebody hadn't told him that he was--[?], right? And so Joe writes about hip-hop and religion. He writes about the African-American experience. His book is--you might want to interview my son. His book is called "Hope: Draped in Black," and--Zach: I'd love to interview him, yeah. Let's talk about it offline for sure.Mary-Frances: Yeah, but what he talks about is how you hold hope in the wake of, you know, all of the oppression and whatnot. But, you know, we talked this weekend about black men and about, you know, the hip-hop culture and the gangster and, you know, the rape culture, and we talked about all of that and how that plays out and, you know, why that is, and yeah, it's--black men are very complex, very complex, and they have been, you know, obviously treated the worst. So it's tied up in self-concept. It's tied up in a whole lot of--and what one study found is that black men who have a good self-concept and are also able to figure out how to navigate, you know, the system, they do well in a corporation, but you've got to come first with a good self-concept, and I think, as quiet as its kept, all that bravado sometimes with black men, you know, "Show me some respect" and all that kind of stuff, you know, and "I'm all of that," I think underneath is really a lot of trauma.Zach: Oh, I agree with that. I think you're 100%, I mean, just spot on, and I also think, you know, when you think about black men in this space--it's interesting because black men and white women have something in common, where black men are black, yet they benefit to a much lesser degree, but they still benefit to a degree, from patriarchy, and white women are women of course, but then they benefit from white supremacy. So there's some dynamics there that are nuanced, and yet in a way that black women don't. So black women are women and they're black, right? So it's like, okay, there's no pool that you can pull from or there's nothing that you can really pull from a position of privilege. Of course you have able-bodied privilege, and if you're cisgender and all those things, but I'm talking about, like, just at a high level. So then--but I was gonna say that, you know, it's hard to talk about that because black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's like, "But it shouldn't be hard to at least try to engage in the subject a bit more intentionally," because, I mean, it hasn't stopped white women from being the center of attention for diversity and inclusion efforts for decades.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. Yeah, no. I think you're right, and so in the book Black Fatigue I question whether, you know--so to a certain extent yes, I guess I would agree that black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's more intra-culture than it is inter-culture.Zach: Right, 'cause black men ain't out here about to just be out here disrespecting white women at work.Mary-Frances: Right. Yes, there you go. Yeah, not unless [?]--nobody better know about it anyway, right? [laughs]Zach: Well, shoot. [laughs] Well, and that's the thing that blows my mind. Like, I had a conversation. I'll never forget. This was some years ago. I had a conversation with somebody who tried to, like, insinuate that the reason why I spoke so much at work was because, you know, I was the only man, and perhaps because as a man I'm used to dominating conversations. And I said, "Look, I might be the only man in this space, but I'm also the only black person in this space, and certainly the only black man," and I said, "So if you think that the reason why I'm quote-unquote dominating this conversation is because I'm a man and y'all are a bunch of white women, that's false." I said, "I would actually be more akin to being quiet," as it took me time to find my voice as a black man in white spaces. I said, "I would challenge you to ask why you would use the language that I'm dominating anything by simply raising my voice in a meeting," right? But there's, like, this--I agree with you. I think that there's a, like, lack of nuance when we talk about even how patriarchy is mobilized for black men. I think black men are benefiting from patriarchy with other black people. They don't benefit from patriarchy, like, from--like, if it's me or Karen, Karen is gonna win out.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. And for reasons like I was saying earlier. These studies show, you know, a tall--you know, you've got your stature if you will, that's a negative. You've got the color that's a negative, right? And so yeah, in white spaces, I think that it is an intersectionality in white spaces. You're black and you're a man. It's a marginalized identity.Zach: So, you know, your colleague Brittany Harris, VP of learning and innovation at The Winters Group, who we've had on in the past, has said that power is the silent P in this work. I'd love to hear more from you on the concept of power and how it fits into this engagement of workplace equity.Mary-Frances: Yeah. I mean, it is very much at the center, and it's complex, and when folks have power, why would they want to give it up? So I am not a proponent of power and privilege discussions with novices in this work. So folks who have not--I'm talking about people who are trying to teach, people who are trying to teach who have not had years of kind of understanding how all this plays out, I'm not in favor of going in and telling them that they have power and privilege. Yeah, I have it and I want to keep it. [laughs] Right? I mean, why would someone want to give that up? [?] Black people standing in front of a bunch of white men talking about, "You have power and privilege." Yeah. And so [they're?] like, "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" [laughs] I mean, they don't say that, but. And the other thing is how do they relinquish that power? I mean, that's really difficult to do. And the other problem that I have with that--so yeah, there's this inequitable power dynamic, but the other problem that I have with that is that we are accepting that we don't have power. We're rendering ourselves powerless, right? And so in the corporate world what is the key term? Empower. We want to empower our people. E-M, right? Empower, right? That is somebody giving you their power. So this is part of the corporate speak, you know, that I don't like, right? It's part of the dominant culture of corporate speak. I should have written about that one in my book. I might still. Anyway, I want to turn that around, that E-M to M-E. Me power. I have power. And so we have agency, but we don't take it. We don't use it because we have internalized that we don't have the power, we don't have power, and we cannot continue to--this is one of the trends I'd like to see, not to continue to talk to folks about power and just use our power, not to magnify the inequities. So everybody knows that if you're a white man in a corporation and whatnot and you're the manager or the leader or the director or the whatever, everybody knows you got power, right? [laughs] You know? You gotta tell me you have power? Why you gotta tell me that? Right? And so I think that there are other ways to claim power. I think that part of that is just the confidence that we come with, the self-concept that we come with. I think that we have to be ready to leave spaces, because there are consequences for us exercising power, and we have to have some safety nets, more safety nets than we have. So I left, you know, some 30 something years ago. I just stepped out on faith, I mean, 'cause I have a strong faith, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I just knew I couldn't stay there. We do know that black women, they're 40% more likely to start their own businesses than any other group, right? Because we recognize that it's traumatizing, and so this whole idea of--so who came up with the idea of power and power and privilege? White folks. To tell us that there's a power inequity... Surprise, surprise. And you know what? We're not gonna change that by telling white people that they have power. That is not gonna change that. The only thing that's gonna change it is for us to claim our power and to recognize that we have it. Zach: I love it. No, I'm right there with you.Mary-Frances: Right? [laughing] Stop telling white folks what they already know, that they got power. They already know that.Zach: No, that's true. Like, them not, like, screaming it from the rooftops doesn't mean that they don't know that.Mary-Frances: Well, exactly. Why would I scream it from the rooftops? Again, the dominant group, it's not something that they probably even--even when we call their attention to it, there are many who will want to say, "Uh-huh. And let me figure out how I'm gonna maintain it." There might be others who are curious. "Hm, there is this dynamic. Maybe I should, you know, do something to work on that," but the forces are so strong and entrenched, right, over 400 years of entrenchment, that it's not gonna change. You know, two or three or the small groups that you might get who are all for shifting that power dynamic, they're not strong enough to overcome that larger group who wants to maintain the status quo. So we just have to take it. We have to grab the power. We have to first of all understand we have it already. It's not grabbing anything. We already have it. We just have to use it and accept that there will be consequences sometimes for using that power, and if we don't have the strong safety nets in our community to, you know, accept and to protect those folks who, you know, get fired, you know, are out there, you know, being called out on social media because they're telling the truth or, you know, whatever it might be. We as a people don't support and protect our own as much as we should.Zach: Man, that's, like, a whole separate [?], and what we need to do is make sure we bring you back on when your book is closer to being published and talk about that, because I do think that, you know, how we--so, you know, we had Robin DiAngelo on some time ago, and she talked about white solidarity and the concept of essentially the formal or informal closing of ranks that white folks do to protect one another, often times at the detriment or harm of black and brown folks, and yet I don't--you know, because of colonization and because of just internalized oppression, you know, we don't have that I don't think in the same--Mary-Frances: We don't, yeah.Zach: And that's created so many challenges for us. I mean, since antebellum to today, right? Like, we've had so many issues because we don't necessarily practice to the same degree, protection of one another. So let's do this. You know, as you look across these leadership groups, especially during this pandemic, what are some of the top things you believe that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts?Mary-Frances: They have not educated themselves, so they are not--they think that they know, they think that their good intentions are good enough. So I've heard leaders say, "I don't care if it's the right thing to do for business," you know, the business case that we talked about earlier, "I just think it's the right thing to do, so now go forth and do it." However, because they don't have an understanding of the history or they know the history that was told wrong, they really don't know what to do. So they're making wrong decisions based on ignorance or, you know, a lack of information. I think the second thing that majority leadership does, particularly in the corporate world, is that they still have to speak to and answer to shareholders, and so they're not going to do anything that is going to, you know, jeopardize that. And so even when you're looking at board members, and what I hear often times is, you know, "Oh, the board won't go for that," or "We've gotta satisfy the board." Well, you need to change the board then. The board may not be--you know, you may not have the right people, because boards are tokenized [when] they have one token black person and one, you know, token woman on the board, right? So those are two things, and I think during the pandemic, I think because of this ignorance they are just not aware, big companies are just not aware of the world that some of the folks on the lowest rung face, and so when you say, you know, "shelter in place, stay home," that home may not be safe. That home may be filled with violence, right? You know, you make decisions about "Who are essential workers and who are not essential workers?" and you don't--you know, are you thinking about the health--again, talking with a client today, you know, talking about some of their contingent, you know, workforce, and they were saying, you know, "Well, are we gonna pay the sick pay or aren't we gonna pay the sick pay?" You know, [?], and so all of these kinds of questions, and they realized that "Yeah, we absolutely need to do that," and so I don't think that there's enough understanding of what marginalized groups face regardless of their socio-economic. So they're making decisions from their own lens, from their own--I'll use the word privileged--from their own privileged lens, and they're missing things. It's coming to light, right? A lot of this stuff is now coming to light, but some of the earlier decisions missed just the horrific impact that this is having on everybody, but particularly those who are in the lowest low end of the economic chain.Zach: Mary-Frances, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, I'd love to make sure that I give you space to talk a little bit more about The Winters Group, what you're most excited about, what you're looking forward to, even during times as uncertain and extraordinary as these. I'd love to just give you space to talk a little bit more about your company. Mary-Frances: Yeah, so we're looking forward to, you know, transforming ourselves as we always do, but this pandemic has made it absolutely imperative, and we've already been doing virtual learning, but we are looking at innovative ways to do virtual, ways that other people are not doing virtual. You know, we have whiteboards, and we have ways that we can break people out into groups. Like, the technology allows that, but I think the ways that we're doing it--we're doing simulations, and so I think this is an opportunity for us to be really, really innovative in terms of how we deliver our message. I did a virtual keynote, you know, a few weeks ago. I think it's also an opportunity for us to continue our [?] of the corporate message and the social justice message, because they have certainly come together with COVID-19 in terms of just what I was just talking about, how we see how marginalized people are even more marginalized. You know, as the saying goes, "When the world gets a cold, black people get pneumonia. When the world gets pneumonia, black people die," and so we're seeing that now, and I think it's the opportunity for us to even more strongly advocate for the intersection of social justice and corporate.Zach: Man, thank you so much, Mary-Frances. This has been phenomenal. And y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this every week. Coming to y'all with real talk in a corporate world. Make sure you check us out everywhere, okay? So you pull up your Google or your, I don't know, Bing, or your Yahoo or whatever search engine machine you're using, and you just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up there, okay? Make sure you check out the show notes. Make sure you check out The Winters Group. Check out all the work that they're doing. Shout-out to The Winters Group and all of their incredible work. Shout-out to black women out here holding everybody down per usual. Thank you for all of your work. And shoot, 'til next time, we'll catch y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Mary-Frances Winters, CEO and founder of The Winters Group, leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm. Been out here laying the groundwork for y'all, setting legacies, and [they're] probably your favorite consultant's favorite consulting agency, okay? They've been out here. They've been doing the work. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of speaking to Debra Gore-Mann, president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, about tackling systemic equity. She graciously shares her unique career journey with us and talks a bit about what it looks like to manage the wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities she engages with in an effort to shift and create systemic change. Check out the show notes to connect with Debra and for more information on The Greenlining Institute!Connect with Debra on LinkedIn and Instagram.Interested in learning more about The Greenlining Institute? Check out their website.They're also on social media - follow them on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.Read Debra's piece mentioned in the episode by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Man, really exciting times. I mean, exciting is a word for it, right? Like, got some concerns with the coronavirus, people working from home, new ways of working impacting marginalized folks in different ways, so definitely expect for our content to shift a little bit. So we're talking about and sharing tips on working from home and how to work from home, dealing with managers, leading teams if you're working from home and also dealing with managers who maybe have never had to manage you as you work from home. But all of that to say we continue to roll with the punches, y'all, and look, it's Tuesday. We're having another conversation, real talk in a corporate world. We do this, right? Like, we sit down with black and brown entrepreneurs, executives, CEOs--who are also executives, but you know what I mean--advocates, allies, public servants, elected officials, and look, today is no different. Like, we have a great guest, Debra Gore-Mann. Debra is the president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Whoo, justice. That's a heavy word in these diversity & inclusion streets, and here they are, and here we go. Debra, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you doing?Debra: Hi, Zach. Thanks so much for inviting me. I too am sitting in, you know, troubling times in that I am a decision maker on whether to work from home or whether to continue to bring folks into work, so I hear you on your opening.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to your point about being a decision maker, I'd love to talk about your journey, right? Like, you've held a variety of different roles, from investment banking to being in athletics to being a chief development officer. Like, I'd love to hear more about your path. Like, as Living Corporate, and I think as we all continue to have these conversations, we've been blessed to talk to people with really unique journeys, right, and it seems as if honestly the people that are making the most impact have some of the most, initially on the outset, just curious paths to getting there. I'd love to hear more about just your story.Debra: Absolutely, and I think my journey is--you know, I used to think that is that it was unique, but the more that I've shared it the more I've realized that there were just some pivotal moments that happened, that happened to me. So in my journey, you know, I'm biracial. My mother is Japanese and my father is black, and he was in the military. And I know for some folks when you say "the military" it means--you know, it's a significant sort of life experience to have a parent who was in the military. So he meets my mother in Japan, and so, you know, she comes to the United States. So she was an immigrant, so I kind of speak that space. And our house was very much a bicultural home. We ate as much Japanese food as we ate soul food. So it was nothing for us to have sushi and collard greens.Zach: Y'all mixed it--y'all mixed it together?Debra: Yeah, totally. My mom just, like, just did both, just did both. Zach: Word? Hm.Debra: But the one thing that was sort of emphasized in our house was education, and equally from my father's side, you know, black household, as the Asian side. I did have a bit of a tiger mom, so people might know what that means, [laughs] you know? And education was important, and so, you know, really kind of overachieved in that space, and here was one of these critical, pivotal moments, right? So finishing high school I'm literally the number two in my class--I think they call it the salutorian--my best friend was the number three person in the class, and I'm going to apply for colleges, and the story she gets--and she's German but white, and the story I get when we compare notes are completely different. I'm told to go to a community college. My family can't afford to send me to college, but this would be a good stepping stone. I mean, it was a very positive conversation, and then I compared with my friend Lilly and she's like, "She told me that I should apply to some of the best schools on the West Coast," but in particular, 'cause I'm originally from Seattle-Tacoma, the University of Washington or the University of Oregon. Totally different story. And so, you know, we're sort of going, "Yeah, this is because you're black." [laughs] And I'm like, "Yeah, it is," but, you know, I didn't know. I hadn't gone to college. My sister--I had an older sister, and she went because, through the PSATs, somebody offered her a full scholarship, so I thought that's how it happened. Well, lo and behold, her brother had gone to MIT. He comes home during that winter break and he says, "Oh, no, you guys--you're #2? You're #3 in the class? You guys are applying to ivy leagues." And we're like, "What's an ivy league school?" 'Cause our counselor didn't tell us anything like that. And so I end up applying to Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Cal Tech, the University of Michigan, right? Sort of high technical schools, high academic schools. She applies to Yale, Harvard. We still apply to our local school, the University of Washington. I also applied basketball, so that's gonna come in here. So I had some athletic scholarships as well, and ended up we got into I want to say 9 out of 10 of the schools we applied to. She ends up going to Yale and I end up going to Stanford, and that in and of itself--so if you're in an Asian household, you know, for the daughters to leave the home is sort of "bad daughter, disobedient," so my mother was like, "You're not--" She doesn't know Stanford from anything else. She's like, "You're not going to California? You're a bad daughter." So my first courageous step was to say, "I'm gonna go to this school. It's in California," because of my good friend's brother who was like, "This is one of the top schools in the country. You need to go." So that's my first sort of, you know, accidental but intentional advice that I got, and then, you know, going to Stanford really kind of changed my life from there, opened up a whole new dialogue, really started to understand my biracialness. Now we have a term, intersectionality. At the time intersectionality was not necessarily as bright and clear, but I really started to understand that and, you know, had an engineering degree. I worked at a tech company, a material science tech company, when I graduated, then I went back to graduate school--back to Stanford--and got my MBA, and at that time I gotta be honest, you know, I was really motivated by money. We were a lower middle-class. You know, my dad was in the military. My mother worked as a domestic housekeeper, so I was cleaning houses, helping her clean houses from a very early age, so I can clean a mean bathroom now to this day. [laughs] Zach: To this day. [laughs]Debra: To this day, you know? You don't want me to come visit your house.Zach: [laughs] I might. [laughs]Debra: "I need to clean this bathroom!" [laughs] And so it was really kind of important for me to sort of maximize my value, so I went to Wall Street, you know? I went to work at an investment bank, and even realized--well, let me take a step back. Another circumstance that happened, when I went to graduate school, I ended up being the only black female in that class. And this is, you know, 1987. But what happened--and I went to admissions and I was like, "How can I be the only black woman in my class?" There was about 25 to 28 of us who had applied, but we all applied at very competitive--so Wharton, Harvard, you know, Princeton. You know, top business schools. Wharton, Northwestern, and the rest, the other 24, went to all the other schools. I was the only one that year that picked Stanford. [laughs] So here I'm in a class, you know, where I'm the only sort of black female voice, and so in, like, every class it's like, "Well, what does Debbie think?" Zach: You become the representative.Debra: I'm the representative, I'm, like, the sole representative, but I'm still identifying as biracial. I'm like, "Why don't y'all care about my Japanese lineage?" But in any case, right, so I land squarely in that, and what really helped me navigate that was that I played basketball, and we would have these pickup games, and I would, you know, be ballin' with the rest of the white guys who are now, you know, running companies, running venture capital, but sports was my translator and my equalizer, and so I've always very much leaned into sports vernacular and ability, and I think that has served me well, frankly, in my corporate leadership and everything, to be able to talk sports--and I mean, like, really talk sports--has really helped.Zach: And what position did you play? Not to cut you off.Debra: I was a point guard. I was a point guard.Zach: Okay, so now how would you characterize your game? Were you, like, a combo? Or were you, like, a facilitator?Debra: Yeah. So I was definitely a floor general. I didn't shoot as much, but, you know, a lot of assists, played all 40 minutes, you know? Started as a freshman, all four years, last two years team captain, so I think the leadership stuff kind of developed there. Played a lot with men. I think that's a common thread with women who really sort of want to elevate their game, you know, playing against people who are bigger, quicker, and stronger really gets your game up there. But, you know, so I'll make analogies--I was actually talking to a coalition person, and, you know, they have a very strong coalition, and I said, "Well, you know, here's my analogy. I'm like Kevin Durant coming to the Warriors after you guys won a couple." [both laugh] And that frames it, right? Like, "Oh, yeah. We're balling," but look, I've got some skills, and I can come and, please, let's just try to win some more championships. So sometimes those sports analogies, like, you know, people are like, "Oh, I get what you're talking about."Zach: They put it together, yeah.Debra: Yeah, and then you also don't sound--you know, it's pretty arrogant to say, like, "I'm Kevin Durant." Like, I'm not Kevin Durant, but people understand that there's a skill set coming into the game. And so I tend to do that. So anyways, I go to Wall Street, and that was yet another environment where I'm, you know, very few--let's see, in that cohort I was the only African-American in that cohort, and then Wall Street is, you know, definitely--I always tell people "Until you make some money, you can walk away from money," so I was able to, you know, buy a home, help my family. You know, my father had passed, so I was able to help my mom with her house. I had a portfolio of investments and could, you know, really speak money and capital and understanding that, but, you know, after I made some money I was like, "Wow, this is not very fulfilling. This is "What have you done for me lately? What's your last transaction?"" And, you know, you're constantly just pushing the rock up the hill. So at that point then I stayed in the private sector and I used my engineering degree with my finance, and in the Bay Area there's a company called Bechtel, who is a large engineering infrastructure company, family-owned, and they have an in-house boutique financial arm, and because I had engineering and I had finance I went to work for that in-house boutique bank, and the beauty of that is it's a global company, so I had a passport and for, you know, five years I worked out of the country. China was opening up in some of their enterprise zones a lot in Latin America, South America, and did these large, large structured finance in foreign currency. So good multi-tasking, you know? The language, the currency. It was sort of complicated transactions, and I loved that work. Like, loved, loved, loved that work, and then the big pivot was I got married and I had a child.Zach: Congratulations, congratulations.Debra: And for women that's a big deal. Even for me at the time, you know, I had worked on a big, multi-billion dollar deal in Mexico, and they weren't gonna let me have maternity leave. They didn't have maternity leave actually. So we crafted--you know, I had accelerated some deals that I had done, so I killed myself working 100 hours so that I could take three to four months off. There wasn't--so when people talk about maternity leave and FMLA, I was like, "Yes! Where do I sign up?" This is some of the policy work, right, that now I'm all in because I lived through a time when women didn't have that. No matter how big my deal was, you know? I could be straight ballin' and it's like, "There's no maternity leave." And the big fear was that I wasn't gonna come back to work, that I was gonna love motherhood, and I was like, "Maybe." Like, I didn't know. I hadn't had a child. So sure enough I get my four months off and really missed working, so to the women who listen to your podcast, you know, I think that will resonate. It's like either, you know, the maternal part is like, "Oh, I love being at home," and I loved that too, but I really had this desire to keep working, and for me at that time then I couldn't just get on an airplane, be gone two or three weeks, 'cause I'd come back and my daughter was, you know, talking or rolling over. I was like, "No, no, no." So I always--I don't know how much space or people have talked to you about, you know, "Your network is your net worth," so I leaned into my network and I said, "Look, y'all. I need a job in the United States. Let's keep it simple, but if it could be in California all the better," and different kinds of, you know, opportunities came in, and it was, you know, someone in my network that said, "Hey, you went to Stanford twice, and the athletic department's looking for a CFO," and I had done enough structured deals, right, that we had some development companies and I had served as the financial officers in some devcos, so, you know, I said, "Okay, let me interview." Okay, so you'll love this, Zach. So I go into this interview. The athletic director was Ted Leland, who was probably one of the top five athletic directors in the country. The faculty athletic rep was Jerry Porras, and he had co-written the book "Built to Last," which was a best seller, with Jim Collins, who then wrote "Good to Great." He's the faculty athletic rep, and then the provost is this--you know, this black professor who's up and coming named Condy Rice.Zach: What?Debra: So I'm interviewing--at the time though... come on, now, we're in the '90s. At the time I'm like, "Okay, athletic director, sports, small field," right? I had been doing global deals. My deals were in the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times. I'm like, "[?] He's an athletic director." Now, Jerry Porras, Jerry Porras I'm like, "Okay, you're kinda ballin'. You're writing best sellers. You're Latin. First of all, you're a Latino male who's a tenured professor at Stanford." So I got a white male who went to community college and now is the athletic director at Stanford. I have a Latino male and then this African-American professor, Russian studies. I was like, "Oh." So, you know, think about the diversity of that right there. Think of the diversity. Black woman, Latino male, white man, and they are gonna be the nucleus. So they say--you know, I talk the talk about "Okay, this is how I would do the athletic department as the CFO and how I'd run it," and they were like, "This is great. We'd like to offer you the job." And I was like, "Great. What's the pay?" It was, like, a 50% pay cut, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, no." Remember, even when I was an undergrad I was like, "Yeah, I gotta make some money, and I'm taking care of my family," and then at this point I'm now sandwiched. I'm taking care of both, right, my own family and then my mother's. So we're kind of that sandwiched generation. So I'm like, "Thank you so much. Here's my dilemma: I can't take the pay cut. It's too much of a pay cut," and I thought it was done, right? So I'm, like, moving on. I'm interviewing other places. I almost went into consulting. I get a call back from Ted that says, "We want you to interview one more person," and I was like, "But I--" And he said, "No, just go to one more interview," and I end up interviewing with the vice president of finance, and they're thinking that--the athletic department reported to the position in the finance office, and so he interviews me and he says, "Look, I'm gonna give you this job and this job," so when I joined Stanford I held the position in the athletic department and then I held a position in the University, which allowed them to basically double my salary and keep me whole. So I was just like, "Wow," you know? So another pivotal kind of--and that's the transition. Like, the transition--I think a lot of people might have to take a pay cut or whatever, but I kind of feel like, "Well, my tool box was pretty robust. I could speak the sports language. I had been speaking the sports language through my whole financial--" So when it came to interviewing in this completely different industry, I was able to translate and transfer those skills, and then, you know, got into--so that's my pivot into college sports and my real first exposure into sort of diversity of thought, you know, equity, what does that look like for women of color. There was a real commitment to Title IX. Stanford was one of the first schools--and I was that first generation that got the title. Literally those scholarships came out in '81, so I'm dating myself now, and I was the first generation to get Title IX scholarship, a full scholarship. So I've been in this space, right? I've been in this equity, justice, racial, just living it, and so, you know, just fast forward. I did, you know, sort of run the gamut in athletics, and when this opportunity at The Greenlining Institute opened up, it is the single place where I have been able to unapologetically, openly talk about racial equity in all forms, and my work is to remove those barriers and to provide economic opportunity. So I'm still true to my message of "Okay, we gotta develop personal wealth, community wealth, and then remove the racial barriers," and it's full-stop, you know, redlining, community development, all of the things that are--you know, affordable housing, health care, all of the intersections now, and I just do it full-throated. So there I go. There it is, Zach. There's the journey. [both laugh]Zach: That's incredible, and you know what's interesting? 'Cause, you know, you talked about dating yourself, but what I hear in that though is the fact that you've really lived this life and you're doing this work, like, beyond the buzzwords of today, right? So, you know, today when we talk about diversity and inclusion or we talk about equity in a corporate context, you know, we don't really mean making people whole, driving for just--like, creating paths to justice or, like, systemic change, right? Like, we're not really talking about that. Like, not really, not in the average diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. We're typically talking about some type of training and some communications, and so what I'm really excited about as we kind of get into this interview is, like, more about the work and where you see The Greenlining Institute going. And to that end, in a piece that you wrote for The Greenlining Institute announcing your arrival to the organization you said--a portion of what you wrote, I'm gonna read it here, quote "People would argue that a focus on the building of a nation through a specific lens of color and race only hinders progress. They are the people who often claim to not see race and who replaced the slogan "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter." I'm not one of those people." So let me keep it 100 with you. When I read this, right--and I recognize you work for The Greenlining Institute, and I recognize that, you know, you've been in places where you've practically drove and you've strived for creating equity for your constituents or stakeholders or whoever the people that you're serving are. I'm gonna still say I still don't see a lot of black executives who boldly engage topics of race, like, be it from a position of self-preservation or a lack of personal range, but, you know, I think about Howard Bryant of ESPN and NPR. He was on the show a while back, and he said "To advocate for black people is to put your whole career in jeopardy," and so I'm just really curious, like, when did you make a decision to not only discuss black equity in these, like, theoretical frames, but leverage your own capital and labor to help solve for it and have, you know, in your career, have you had colleagues discourage you from pursuing this type of work?Debra: So I totally understand what Howard Bryant is saying when he says "Black people have to put their career in jeopardy." No doubt, right? It's the judgment against Michael Jordan that he didn't know political advocacy, but now, you know, a generation later, like, it's fine for LeBron James to do it actually, and, you know, even Steph Curry or Steve Kerr. I mean, they're openly in this space now. So I think it is the times that you live in that affect it. I constantly had people who discouraged me if I wanted to have my career ascend or be eligible for large bonuses. There was a bit of impostor syndrome that, you know, you had to perpetrate. So the people usually who were discouraging of speaking boldly into race and gender and the intersectionality that I survive in were mostly white people, right? And so they were making it clear to me of the risks. Like, "You could do it, Debbie. You can talk about this, you can talk about that, but I'm just gonna tell you what may be the consequences of it." So I think there is some truth for sure to what Howard Bryant is saying. The flip side is so when do you have the courage then to go ahead and put my career on the line? Like, you know, "I don't give an F. Here we go." [both laugh] And this is what's gonna just trip you out, Zach. So the moments that I've been able to do that most boldly was when I was encouraged and had the support of mentors who, you know, the Condy Rices or the Ted Lelands or, you know, I could name two or three people who were mentors who said, "Look, go ahead, speak your truth, and I got your back on this one." So for example, when I was at Stanford--I had been there maybe four or five years, you know, and I had done the first big Nike deal--they had never done a big Nike deal--and got one of the largest campus deals ever. Pepsi, at that time the soda wars were happening in your facility, so we negotiated that. I had negotiated two very high profile coaches contracts. So my credibility on campus was pretty legit, and this new dean of the medical school really wanted to have the orthopedics department sort of be a partner with the athletic department, because think about it. The athletes, you know, at that time, Tiger Woods, John Elway. Like, we had some--and they still have some very high profile athletes there. So I had met with the chief of orthopedics and I was like, "Oh, it was a great meeting." Very white male, very, very white. So I'm code-switching and I'm doing all the things that I do to make sure that he's comfortable, and after that meeting he goes back to the dean and says, you know, "I think she's gonna be a problem," or something to that affect. So then two of our medical doctors who had been doing all of our surgeries--knees, shoulder, elbows--came back, and one who I trusted--we had a very... obviously if you're dealing with young people's bodies and those families, so I tended to be the person who talked to the family and said, "Hey, this is our expert." He came to me and he told me. He said, "So this dean, they have some concerns about the relationship," and I said, "This isn't about the relationship. This is about me. This is this white guy who's not comfortable," and I sat there and I was fuming, and I went to the athletic director and I went to the faculty athletic rep and they were like, "Oh, no. We're going all in," right? But they had to--I probably would not have had I not had their voices behind me, and so we did. We met with the dean, and I asked some very, you know, pointed questions. You know, "Where was this concern coming from?" You know, I had the faith of the coaches, the head coaches, and the faculty athletic rep and, you know, X, Y, and Z, and where was this voice coming from? And he was just sort of, "Well, I kind of heard you--" "Did I say that?" "No, but, you know, it was--" And so I was just like, "I think this is racial. I think it's both racial and gender." Men with influence, this is important to your career that you sign this athletic department and, you know, it was immediately--you know, he was apologetic, and "That's not what I meant," and I was like, "You know, that's fine. I'm just telling you how you're presenting yourself and what that means to me and my career." But, you know, I don't know that I would have stepped out on that branch on my own, you know? I think if I had just walked that my career might have been at risk, but knowing that I had, you know, two very senior people say, "We got you on this," was important, was important. And so the advice that I do tend to give now is that, you know, everybody, a young professional, a mid-year professional, I think everybody should have an advisory council where you have somewhere between three and five people that you have literally asked to be a mentor or who has some sort of credibility and clout who can advise you on when to make these very hard decisions. I've had an advisory council ever since, you know, and it's changed depending on the industry that I'm in--and I tend to have three. I used to have five. And you want an odd number in case there's a tie, you know? [laughs] If you have one say yes and the other say no, you need that third one to say yes or no to break the tie. But then that'll help you temper, you know, your career advice with the steps you need to take when you have to fight the good fight. And I know now that--you know, I don't know where he is in his career, but I guarantee you he will never--he'll think twice, you know, about "Oh, am I doing this because I have some gender bias? Because I have some racial bias?" Like, he had been comfortable in that space and he had done his thing, and he probably had run over a bunch of black people, and he finally ran into somebody who said, "This ain't right," and then had other people sit in the room with me and say, "You're not right," you know? So those moments are, you know, sort of life-changing, but they're done with courage for sure. My voice was quivering. My knees were shaking. But I was like, "I'm going all in. I'm going all in on this one."Zach: And I bet you felt all the better for it after the conversation too.Debra: Oh, absolutely, yeah, and it made the next conversation easier, you know? Once you do it you realize that the house didn't fall in, [laughs] or that your career didn't implode. Now, you know, had it imploded maybe I'd have a different [?], but then, you know, now I'm able to sit in a room and say, "Well, you know, are you sure that's what you mean? You know, I kind of hear--" and "I feel like you have some bias here," and, you know, now I'm that voice for the whole community. I'm like, "Look, you are racial washing. You are equity washing right now, people of color and affordable housing. This is about segregation. Let's call it what it is. They don't want to put affordable housing on [?] in Lafayette a lot of white people live there and they want us living in segregated communities. Come on." So I can just speak it now and say, you know, to policy makers or banks or corporations or city hall, say, "Look, I disaggregated this. We have disaggregated this. Here is the bias that still lives. What are you gonna do?" And "Here's how we're gonna help you do it." So we have a whole framework that we say, "Okay, this is how you dismantle it, and this is how we're gonna build it back up."Zach: I think that work--it's just the work itself is so incredible, because, you know, even if you just look, like, from a historical perspective, right? So like, what, black folks have had the same rights on paper for, like, 54, 56 years, and so I think about the fact that 1. that's not even a whole lifetime, right, but then on top of that, like, because of that fact, Gen X is, like, the first generation of people who were born into this country with all of their rights, and really even millennials are--still today, like, a lot of these people, myself included, are first-generation corporate professionals, and I've thought about that side a lot. Like, the fact that a lot of black and brown folks, this is their first time really even being in these spaces, but what I haven't thought about until recently, Debra, is that for white people, this is their first time dealing with black people in these spaces, and when they go home and they talk to their colleagues or their older mentors, they don't really--I mean, they're not going to get a perspective that isn't within a context that is formalized anti-blackness, right? So you think about, like, let's just say if I wasn't a first-generation professional. I talked to my uncle. He can give me context on just working in majority-white spaces, he could do that, but if I was white and I'm dealing with you in this space and I go and talk to my uncle, he's not gonna--he very well likely is not gonna have anything to teach me or tell me about, like "Oh, well, this is how you need to be self-aware, and this is how these cultures work," you know? So I find that really curious, and you kind of--you answered one of my questions, but I want to ask this one though, 'cause you kind of touched on it a little bit. What does it look like, right, to build relationships across the various types of circles that you have to engage in? I think about the fact that when you're talking about policy and you're talking about shifting and creating systemic change, like, you have--I would imagine there's some grassroots folks that you have to engage and endear, but then there's also corporate entities who influence the actual policies, right? Like, I would imagine you're talking to some billionaires, but then you're also having conversations with activists, and you're also talking to folks in the government. Like, what does it look like to manage that wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities? Like, how does that practically show up?Debra: Hm. I do think there has to be this consistency in philosophy. Like, you have to really be grounded in your values, because once people start challenging you, right--so if you truly believe that there's systemic racism, and not just in the policy but in the cultural diatribe of "Pull yourself up from the bootstraps. Poor people are poor because they're lazy." Like, that's a whole capitalistic trope, and if you want to really dismantle the conversation, then you have to have clarity that that is what's happening, because it is so easy to get on the "You can make money if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." You know, the Christian, Protestant work ethic. Look, that is a construct to keep the segregation as status quo. So when you're, you know, either the corporate office or even the Capitol, you start to have this conversation about "Where are your values?" So if a person is leading with "I believe you can pull yourself up from the bootstraps," I know that they have completely--they have such a long way to go before they can even have a conversation about racial equity. Like, that foundational conversation, so I start there. I start there. So, you know, let's say--even now. So if you're a digital [?] and you've been sort of, you know, raised that you probably, you know, think "Okay, I have all these online tools, and [?] are non-biased." Okay, let's just disaggregate that. Right now there's more loans that are--let's just say your car loan, right, or your home loan, it used to be about 4-5% done online. It's darn near 35% online now. And that information shows that there is so much racial bias. Black and brown people pay 100 to 200 [?] points more. Their loan interests are higher. So the algorithm, which has been written by white men who are in that space, that algorithm has bias. "No, it's neutral." "No, it's based on zip code. It's based on spending habits. It's based on--" You know, 'cause now they have all this big data tracking you. All of that is racially biased because it's founded in this language of "If you work hard and you get educated, then you deserve it."Zach: Yeah, this idea of meritocracy.Debra: And that is the racial construct. So we are now having this conversation about "Okay, what does wealth mean?" Okay, wealth. You know, mostly we think, "What's in my bank account? I have a house." Wealth is "I have the freedom to take a vacation. I have the ability to take a week off if my family is sick. I have the ability to cover a bill if it's, you know, a health bill, an automobile breakdown or a home thing." Like, that is wealth. So if you say--and people say, "Oh, yeah. Everybody should have the right to do that." "You should have the right to be able to visit family," or "You should have the right to be able--" Okay, so then you say "What does that policy look like to allow us to do that?" So I don't really actually have to talk race. I don't. I need to talk about a culture, a narrative. Like, we have to take command of a narrative, which is coming. This whole political race, presidential race, pivoted on South Carolina and black folk voting. Like, change the landscape. And for the first time, you know, Ta-Nehisi Coates testified with Danny Glover around reparations. Like, people are willing to say, "Wait, what is this?" And we have video now of police abuse, you know, and we're unpacking the criminal justice system. Like, there's an opportunity for us to walk into this space, which at the end of the day will affect your corporate life and will allow you to show up authentically, and all the data shows that a business decision made with diverse voices in the room, diverse ethnicities in the room, are going to get you better business decisions. So I can even talk to you on--if you just want to talk pure capitalism, like, "Hey, this system that, you know, your white boys built is breaking down, so you at least gotta admit you gotta consider another system." [laughs] Like, you gotta figure out, just even from an economic basis, that what we have now is not going to persist. It's just--it's not. It's collapsing on itself, and now, you know, we have--and it might happen in a generation, that we're going to create a new landscape of what wealth and economic opportunity looks like.Zach: I mean... you know, typically we do sound effects during the show. Like, right here I just want to drop, like, a Flex bomb. Boooooom. Sound Man, he's gonna put it in this. Put it in right here. Boom. I mean, it's just incredible. You're absolutely right, and I'm really curious, like, kind of continuing along the last part that you said, you know, in January you wrote something called "The Many Reasons to Impeach Trump," right?Debra: The many. [laughs] Not the three they landed on.Zach: Yeah. Not the couple. Not the few. The many. [laughs] And you wrote, "For communities of color, Trump has long since violated our public trust, and we know that a multitude of possible articles were excluded." So, you know, we're in an election year, right? Like, if Trump is elected for a second term, how do you anticipate Trump's policies practically impacting the efforts of The Greenlining Institute's goals? Debra: Actually, the Trump administration has emboldened the political conversation. We are in more demand now because of the contrast. Before there wasn't as much contrast. It was everybody was kind of in the grey. We were kind of all getting along.Zach: We got a black president. There's no more racism.Debra: Right. You know, we had arrived, and now the contrast is so stark that, you know, everybody kind of knows "This doesn't feel right." And so it's like, "So what does right feel like?" And we feel like we need to occupy that space of "Okay, here is what, you know, racial equality looks like. Here is what right feels like, and let's redefine--" He's offering you a model. This is what the model looks like. "I talk crazy. I put down whoever I feel like putting down. It always is racialized. I'm a model. Look at me. I'm an economic model." And understand, it is an economic model. He does not stand on any values. He does not stand on any religious--it's, like, transactional. "Here's how much." "I just got a couple billion dollars from Israel. I just got a billion here, a billion there." That's the model. So what do you offer in contrast to that economic model, right? And so I get that, okay, there's this hardcore 38, 40% that's like, "Yes, I believe that economic model," and then there's the "Okay, we want to be a kinder, gentler kind of space," that I feel like Biden's kind of walking into, but at some point you're gonna have to have a conversation about what is that? What is wealth? What is community wealth? What does economic wealth look like? 'Cause he's offering you a model, you know, and it just happens to be this very racialized model, but man, we're comfortable with that. Let me just say we're comfortable with that racialized model, and it's just--Zach: And we have been, right?Debra: Yeah, and in the absence of it I'm scared. It's like, "Wait, but I understand that one. I can be a poor white--"Zach: "I get this though."Debra: Yeah. "I'm a poor white person and I'm voting against my own interests because I believe if I pull myself up by the bootstraps," and I'm like, "No. You've been disenfranchised."Zach: For multiple generations.Debra: And you're still voting for your guy. So I think that, you know, the contrast is what's allowing our work to actually, like, accelerate. We have so much work that we cannot even get to. Like, right before this meeting we were triaging which--and I was working with my health equity person--which health equity bills could we support with our limited amount of energy and resources that we have? Because we are prioritizing how much work there is to do. There is just so much work to do, yeah. So in terms of framing what happens to our goals, I think, you know, we stay very--we're okay, we're solid in our goals. The work has just been multiplied and amplified.Zach: That's a blessing. And, you know, what I'm hearing also--and something that we don't discuss enough, again, when we talk about, like, really creating and driving for equity, we're talking about, like, really shifting and engaging systems. Like, a lot of times, like, these conversations, they start and stop at individuals, and, like, then we get lost in, like, the distraction of intentions. It's like, "Okay," and, you know, if bias are conscious or unconscious. We don't talk about impact. We don't talk about, again, like, the models by which these things are really, like, placed in, and how they drive inequity and disenfranchisement, so that's incredible. We're coming up close to the end of the interview. I want to give you a little bit of space to talk a little bit more about The Greenlining Institute, what you're excited about over the next, like, you know, let's say over the next year, and then I'd like to give you some space to just, like, any shout-outs or parting words you got for us.Debra: Oh, okay. [laughs] So the next year there is a deep conversation happening nationally about readdressing segregation, that if we continue to live in segregated communities in that, you know, what do they say, on any given Sunday we're the most segregated country in the world. There's a deep conversation about that and about community wealth, and I'm seeing both in the academy, where, you know, a lot of research is being done, to the policy makers, to bankers. There's a conversation about now how do we really address supportability, homelessness, because they're all intertwined. Like, you can't have a conversation about affordable housing without talking about health equities and social determinants of health, and you can't talk about that without talking about access to broadband, technology, that's moving so quickly, but almost everything--I don't know about you, but I don't know the last time I went to a bank. I do it all online.Zach: My bank is on my phone, yeah, and just to that point, like, I think about--so I have the privilege of having a decent-paying job, right, so I don't have issues with, like, using my data. I have unlimited data. I don't have issues with my Wi-Fi most of the time, and if I do have issues, then I have the privilege of picking up a phone, demanding someone come and fix this so I can get back to going and doing it. [laughs] But when you talk about this next generation of work, and, like, we talk about the workforce of the future and we talk about this digital age, there continues to be studies showing that black and brown communities, economically-distressed communities, are gonna be left out of this age because we don't have the access to enter, right?Debra: Yeah. So we have technology equity in our shop, and one of our biggest campaigns right now is Broadband for All, and then another big pillar for us is algorithm bias, and that cuts across not just financial institutions but medical bias in the algorithms that are, you know, based on research on cancer. Well, guess what that research was done around. You know, middle-class white families. So, you know, the next 12 months, I think this conversation is going to start to coalesce. There are going to be some common themes on how we can change the narrative on an economic sort of wealth, redefinition of wealth. I think that's really coming in the short term. I think the presidential outcome in November will also lay the ground for sort of that next level of work that's happening. So, you know, 12 months, we're running hard for sure, grinding, and then we'll see if, Heaven forbid, Trump gets reelected or not, because that will require some activism. I think we are all--we're gonna have to be that generation that really, you know, takes to the streets, you know, walks on the Capitol, boycotts, because if nothing else, you know, you can imagine if we all decided one day to pull our money out of the banks... Zach: Whoo...Debra: That's trillions of dollars. That's trillions of dollars.Zach: Yeah.Debra: Yeah, and so we might have--the activism may have to become real in the next 12 to 18 months if Trump is reelected. If not, I do think that the conversation, there's gonna be some--there will still be a conversation about "Okay, what does affordability look like?" 'Cause the homelessness is not going away. You know, we're one of the wealthiest states and we are so troubled by it. So I think that that conversation will continue, and we might as well grab hold of what we think wealth looks like. And like I said, it's the freedom to do a lot of things that you otherwise couldn't do. Call up your cable man or your repair man. [laughs] Yeah, and I actually think that's gonna then build community, right, in that if I know my mom is taken care of or my dad can retire comfortably, or my daughter, who does not have the American dream of buying a house--like, that's not... she's like, "What?"Zach: Definitely not in California. No way.Debra: Well, it's not even a part of the dream, right? She's more aspirational. "Maybe starting my own company or, you know, traveling globally." And I was like, "Wow," because that reality is not there for her. So to buy a home, it's not aspirational because it's not achievable.Zach: Well, and when you think about, like--I 100% hear you. The reason why I reacted when you said pull out the money from the banks was like, you know, this is not, like, "It's a Wonderful Life," right? Like, you know, nobody's gonna be like, "Well, your money's at Ted's house, at Bill's house." Like, no. The money--if that was the type of protest, if that happened, like, oh, my gosh. I mean, we gotta have you back on and just talk about, like, even the concept of protest, because--anyway, this has been a profound conversation, Debra. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having intentional, authentic, transparent conversations every day. Again, I really want to emphasize, what I really enjoyed about this conversation and what I really hope our listeners are grasping and understanding is that shifting and creating equity and really having authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion has to involve engaging and tackling systems, y'all. If we're not talking about engaging systems, we're not doing the work. Right? So I know a lot of us, there are people who listen to this show who are, like, diversity, equity and inclusion consultants, and there are people who listen in who are trying to figure out and trying to get the secret sauce on, like, this next generation, the workforce of the future. Like, y'all, if we're not willing to tackle and dismantle, or rebuild and, like, really think about these systems that are in play, we're not making change, y'all. Look, you can check us out on social media. @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then look, we're all over Al Gore's internet, right? For those of us who are blessed to have digital access, you just type in Living Corporate on Google and we'll pop up, but we have all of the different domains, okay? So let me just rattle them off real fast, okay? You've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, okay, but we have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, all right? Now, we're all over the place, and again, we're coming at y'all every week with this stuff. Today was a super dope conversation with the new CEO, Debra Gore-Mann, of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Make sure y'all check out the information in the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach sits down to chat with Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin, a psychologist and a partner of Dynamic Transitions Psychological Consulting, LLP, about the psychology of impostor syndrome. Dr. Orbé-Austin breaks down the concept of impostor syndrome itself and talks a bit about how gaslighting can tie into and even exacerbate it. He also shares several practical ways impostor syndrome manifests in the workplace. Listen to the full show to learn a handful of methods to combat it on a personal level.Connect with Dr. Orbé-Austin on LinkedIn and Twitter.Check out DTPC's website by clicking here.Follow DTPC on social media. They're on LinkedIn and Facebook.Interested in Lisa and Richard's book? Find out more about it on Amazon.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, man, you know what it is. And I always start with "Look, man, you know what it is," and I apologize for being gendered in my introduction, so let me start over. What's up, y'all? Y'all know what it is. It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we have real talk with real people in a corporate world, and this real talk is doing what? Centering and amplifying underrepresented voices at work, and man, we have a great guest. We have a great guest, really excited to have Dr. Richard Orbe-Austin. Now, is that right? Is it Orbe?Dr. Orbé-Austin: Yes. Yes, like sorbet.Zach: Aye. Haha. "Smooth Like Sorbet" Orbe, what's up? Bars. Dr. Orbe-Austin is a psychologist--I don't know why I started off like that. Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin is a psychologist and a partner of Dynamic Transitions Psychological Consulting, a career and executive coaching consultancy in New York City. Dr. Orbé-Austin has worked in the field of career and executive coaching for over 15 years, and was the founding director of NYU’s Graduate Student Career Development Center. In this capacity, he developed the strategic vision and led a team responsible for managing the career needs of over 14,000 graduate students in over 100 different disciplines. Prior to his tenure at NYU, Dr. Orbé-Austin served in a variety of leadership roles, including as the chief diversity officer at Baruch College-City University of New York and as president of the NY Association of Black Psychologists. Okay, so he's certified. Again, see, people come on this--you know what I'm saying, people, you know, will subversely kind of ask me, like, "Well, who do you even have on your podcast?" Y'all be trying to talk to me--you know, it's really a function of colonialist white supremacy, but we ain't gonna talk about it right now, how y'all try to come and challenge the credos of this show, but, you know what I'm saying, we have real ones over here, so don't test us, okay? Do not test us, mess around and, you know what I'm saying, pull your card. Don't play. [ow sfx] Dr. Orbé-Austin’s opinions and writings have appeared in a variety of publications, including Forbes, Fast Company, Diversity Executive, and ThriveGlobal. He earned his PhD in counseling psychology from Fordham University’s Graduate School of Education and his BA in psychology from NYU. His book, Own Your Greatness: Overcome Impostor Syndrome, Beat Self-Doubt, and Succeed in Life, published by Ulysses Press [and] co-authored by his partner Dr. Lisa Orbe-Austin, will be released in April 2020. The goal of this book is to provide a systematic way to eradicate impostor syndrome and help readers find their power so they can utilize it for their own goals and lead a more balanced life. What a bio. I feel like I gotta drop some air horns just for the fact that that was very, very dense and all very substantive and impressive. What's up? Come on. Drop 'em right here. [Flex bomb, then air horn sfx] Come on, let's go. How are you doing, Dr. Austin? Dr. Orbe-Austin, excuse me.Dr. Orbé-Austin: I am wonderful, Zach. It's a pleasure to meet with you and your wonderful audience, so I'm thrilled to be chatting with you today.Zach: Now, look, I don't want to spill too much tea, but I know your cousin, right, and his name is not Orbe-Austin, it's just Austin. Can you talk a little bit about the last name?Dr. Orbé-Austin: So yes, I want to always tell the story about--any time my wife and I go and present anywhere and we introduce ourselves people kind of give a look, and then I have to start by saying, "Look, just to get it out of the way, we're not brother and sister. We're actually husband and wife." So when we got married I actually took my wife's name. So her name was Lisa Orbe and my name was Richard Austin, and as we joined our families we joined our names. And so I think it's not traditional, I think, for a lot of people in society to see a man do that, so I think it throws people off, so I'm always kind of thrilled to talk about, you know, equity and equality and really being able to join families in that way.Zach: You know what? And shout-out to you, you knwo what I mean? Because, you know, you're rejecting patriarchy one bold move at a time. It's interesting how we normalize the idea that women's last names are just erased, you know what I mean? You know, it's not really cool, you knwo what I'm saying? Now, look, did my wife take my last name? Yes, okay? Would I hyphenate? Probably not because I'm not really that strong. I'm pretty insecure as a man, you know what I'm saying? But look, it takes a real man to, you know, admit that. Because it's funny, you know, I can come on this podcast and I can talk about rejecting patriarchal systems and all these kinds of things, but then if you ask me, you know, to supplant any privilege that I may have, I'm over here like, [hold on a minute there playa sfx]. You know, wait a second. We ain't gonna just--you know, I'm not giving up. Nah, but all jokes aside, that's awesome. I love that, and I was very curious about it from the beginning, and yes, definitely shout-out to Mrs. Orbe-Austin, your partner in crime and business and life, what's up? Let's talk about your journey though and why you got into psychology. Like, what was the path there?Dr. Orbé-Austin: The first reason I got into psychology is a pretty simplistic notion of psychology. So about eighth grade I always remember developing this advice column for my classmates called Ask Dr. Rich. So at the time I thought being a psychologist meant telling people what to do, and so, you know, as an eighth-grader with all the knowledge that I had at that time--Zach: All the answers.Dr. Orbé-Austin: Right, so why not, you know, do that? So I really enjoyed being able--and, you know, at that time it was usually relationship issues that people were writing in about, and I had my little column, and again, not that I had that great of experience in relationships, but I felt like I could provide something enough for people to seek my assistance. And then as I got a better understanding of what it meant to be a psychologist I came to realize that I could make a contribution down that path in terms of really being able to help people be their best selves. And so the background that I typically give is I'm a son of Haitian immigrants, so that automatically means that I was destined to be a medical doctor, right? [laughs] So for a long time I thought I was gonna be a psychiatrist, right, 'cause that fills both the medical doctor side and then my desire to work on behavior. Thankfully enough my sister became a pediatrician, my oldest sister, so I think she gave me some room to navigate and negotiate the reality that "Hm, maybe I'm not actually gonna go down that path of medicine but continue to pursue my dream of going into psychology." And so through college I was pre-med. I thought I was going down that path. I [?] all the things to really shape the direction of going into medical school, but then I began to know and understand when I took an internship after my junior year at Columbia University and I had the good fortune to work with a black male psychologist, who at the time to me was, like, a unicorn. So I had never actually met a psychologist in person, let alone a black male psychologist, and began to really know and understand that 1. it's possible to go down that route, 2. that I would have mentorship to really be able to know and understand how to navigate that path and negotiate it. So I had to have that hard conversation one day with my parents that I was not going to pursue medicine, but I was still gonna be a doctor, and it was just going to be a psychologist. So ultimately that's the path I took. I pursued, you know, my counseling psychology degree and really along the way understood that that was the best fit for me.Zach: Can we talk a little bit about--so you talked about it, you know, that seeing yourself represented is what then gave you the gumption to then pursue it yourself, but can we talk a little bit more about black representation in mental health and, recognizing that you are a child of immigrants, Haitian immigrants, but I'm curious about what have you seen in your presence as a black man make with your black and brown patients and students in perspective or hopeful psychologists and psychiatrists?Dr. Orbé-Austin: One of the particular missions that I've always had is to really increase the representation of black mental health practitioners, I'll say, in general in the field. So when we look at the numbers right now they're abysmal. Less than 4% of psychologists are black, and I'd say less than 2% of psychologists are black males. And it's typically across the board you see those similar numbers in psychiatry and social work, so the people that tend to engage clinically with our folks are not the people that look like them, right? And so over 86% for instance of psychologists in the U.S. are white. So what I was able to know and recognize as I said before 1. is to be able to see individuals who look like me pursuing the same profession as I wanted to pursue was very inspirational to me, but they also were able to provide me guidance and a home to talk about some of the challenges of being the only one in a lot of these spaces. So when I started my doctorate program I was the only black male there. I often times was primarily the only male in a lot of these rooms, and so, you know, the running joke in my program is that they would have one black male, like, every four, five years, and so I would meet--you know, I met the person who came on before me who was the black male for that time, and subsequently I knew I needed to join organizations and connect with professionals in the field, so I was able to be exposed to the Association of Black Psychologists very early on in my career, so I felt like I had an opportunity to engage with other folks doing this work. And then I saw it full center when I was able to do some of my training. One of the stories that I always talk about when we talk about things coming full circle as a child of Haitian immigrants, I had an opportunity to do an internship at King's County Hospital out in Brooklyn, New York, and I had the opportunity to actually work with this Haitian psychiatrist who had created a special clinic for Haitian patients, Haitian-American patients, and one of the things that he did as a psychiatrist primarily was to provide medication, but he recognized that a lot of these folks needed some more support, and so he was able to collaborate with me to start, like, a psychology clinic where I would do therapy with some of these folks, and the fact that I could speak their language, the fact that I knew their culture, the fact that, again, I looked like them, I think was so helpful in 1. helping them to not be afraid of the journey that they were taking through the mental health landscape, and then 2. it really enabled them to feel like they were being heard, understood, respected, and seen in ways that they probably may have never felt that they had been seen before, especially as many of them had recently immigrated to the U.S. and were trying to find their way.Zach: And so, you know, it's interesting to your earliest point around, like, the representation in the space being abysmal, like, it's challenging too, like, as someone who has, at various points in their life, like, pursued psychiatry or therapy or, like, just talking to somebody, right, it's not only, like, finding somebody, but, like, that small pool then limits some of the flexibility that I've heard my white counterparts have where it's like, "Okay, I have this psychiatrist, but we don't really click, so I'm gonna go and try to find somebody else, right?" Like, they'll shop around. Like, for me, you know, it's kind of like, "Well, dang. I mean, he and I don't really vibe on this level," or "She and I don't really agree about this," or whatever the case may be, but "She looks at me, and she at least empathizes with the bulk reality of my experience. So don't let me be picky. I'm just gonna stay here."Dr. Orbé-Austin: Yeah, and it becomes a challenge, especially when folks reach out to me and say that they're looking for some level of support and they say, "Hey, I want an African-American therapist." And typically, you know, I do say to shop around to find a fit, right? And so I want to give them as many options as possible. I end up being able to give, hopefully on the better end, three to four options, and then if they go to the first one and they feel like, "Okay, there's not a connection there," they may or may not actually then move forward on it, right? So I know that by the time someone gets to a point of really wanting to go to therapy, it's a major step for them to make that call, right? And so I always want to honor that and honor that, you know, effort to really make sure that they link with someone as soon as possible, and someone that they can vibe with, right? 'Cause yes, someone can look like you, but if you don't feel comfortable enough to be open and vulnerable to them, then it's just not gonna work, right? So that's the thing that I talk about, 'cause, you know, we can all feel like, "Hey, you know, they look like us," but if we don't connect, whether it's a co-worker or, you know, other person, we're like, "Yeah, they're black, but, you know, I'm not really feeling 'em in that way."Zach: All skinfolk ain't kinfolk.Dr. Orbé-Austin: Right? So it is a dilemma in helping people to feel like they have options and, you know, it's all right to kind of go to one or two to get the best fit.Zach: So you're a black man. You are in a highly--like, a very white academic space, and I'm really curious about what--like, what do micro-aggressions and just straight on aggressions look like for you, right? And I'm looking at your profile picture. I would imagine, you know, you're not catfishing anybody. You probably look a lot like your profile picture. So you look--like, you present... you don't present, like, a child, but you don't, like, present a very old man. Like, you present moderately young, right? And so I'm really curious as to, like, what does it look like just being you in these spaces, and, like, what do micro-aggressions look like, what do actual aggressions look like, how do you navigate that? What are some maybe patterns of behavior that you see operating as who you are in these spaces?Dr. Orbé-Austin: Sure. So I'm glad that you raised my picture, right, and how young I look. I appreciate the compliment. [both laugh] But that was one of the big ones, right, when I started out in either doing clinical work or in teaching - for a while I used to teach at the collegiate level, and I would get always, "Well, you look really young to be a professor," or "You look really young to be a therapist," right? And sure, on one hand it could be about age, but I think after a while if you still keep getting that same thing--and my white colleagues who were just as young as me were not getting that--then it made me begin to think about, "Well, what does that necessarily mean in terms of credibility, being authentic? How do I then recognize how to be seen for who I am?" So that was one, and then the other piece of it, you know, often times that would come up is the typical "Wow, you're very articulate," right? Whether it's, you know, giving a speech to a group of faculty members, whether it's, you know, being able to do a case presentation at a [?] conference. So often times there would be these underlying micro-aggressions that were really racially and, you know, gender-based. So if, for instance, you know, sometimes people would say, "Oh, you know, don't dress in a particular manner because, you know, it might be intimidating to the students. Just dress down," right? So for me it's like--you know, I wear a suit to work, right? That's my style. But to be told--I'll never forget this--to be told by a supervisor, "Well, you know, like, you may not want to do that. It might just be intimidating," and again, in that moment I didn't necessarily feel like, "Oh, okay. Well, this is clearly a micro-aggression," and that's the nature of micro-aggressions, right? That in the moment it kind of catches you a little off-guard. It's not so direct, but then when you sit and think about it for a little bit, then you recognize that, "Okay, my white male colleague wears a suit and a tie every day and is a little older than me, and I'm not imagining, you know, he was told the same thing," right? So it's managing and navigating that path. And then on the other path, you know, some of the work that I do as a consultant going into these different spaces, corporate spaces or, you know, academic institutions and people being surprised, right, they may not necessarily see my picture. They may have a conversation with me, but then when I show up in the room, you know, you get that sense of "Oh." You know, my name sounds a little bit generic, you know, especially when it was Richard Austin, right? So sometimes they're not expecting me to show up as the person that I am, and so they do a little double-take, right, and then they catch themselves, right? And so I get that, right? But now I've always said, to be quite honest, that my PhD has provided me access to many spaces that I otherwise wouldn't have had because of who I am, right? That those three little letters enable me to step into rooms that otherwise I'd be shut out of, and when I'm in those rooms I can then [?] my power, even though there is some level of pushback against it.Zach: And so, you know, it's interesting, 'cause I've spoken with folks--we have some mutual connections, and some of them also have, like, some really prestigious degrees, and so the conversation that I'll have with some of those folks is something like, you know, "My education and my profile can, like, preemptively trigger fragility and insecurity with my peers because they see the additional letters after my name," but I'm curious, like, have you ever experienced that yourself, or do you think that that's a bit more masked because of the fact that you're in, like, more formal academic spaces?Dr. Orbé-Austin: Well, not always am I in these spaces, right? So for instance, one of the types of consulting I do is diversity, equity and inclusion work, and in those spaces, particularly when I'm in corporate rooms where, yes, they can get that, you know, I have those three letters, but there is pushback, you know, against some of the things that I may have to offer, I think, because of, you know, who I am and what I may represent, right? And so we, you know, go into some of these spaces knowing that people might talk about wanting to do the work, but when it's time to do the work and when the work that's being guided by a black male is not what you want, then there can be a particular level of backlash or, you know, aggressive pushback that needs to be navigated and negotiated. Zach: And so then, you know, I think that leads us well into--you know what? No, I'ma pause on this actually, because, like, we have not formally talked about this on the podcast, but I think it leads well into, like, the main topic that we're gonna get into today, which is impostor syndrome. Can we talk a little bit about, like, gaslighting, and, like, what that is? And then perhaps how gaslighting can tie into impostor syndrome or exacerbating impostor syndrome.Dr. Orbé-Austin: Mm-hmm, yeah. I mean, I think that that's a great segue, because when we talk about gaslighting, in essence it's trying to convince you that what you're experiencing, seeing, listening to, is not your experience, right? That if someone makes a clearly racist, sexist, homophobic comment, clearly has done something offensive and they say to you, "Well, you know, you're reading too much into that," right? Or, you know, "I don't really understand how you came to that conclusion," right? And in the workspace, again, it's very difficult, especially one if there's a power disparity, right? Like, if the person doing the gaslighting is a supervisor or a senior peer, it's difficult to feel confident and comfortable enough to push back. And then two it's ultimately hard to then feel like you can win, right? Because if someone is in their particular stance, it's very difficult to argue with unless you have, you know, video recordings and you play it back and you're like, "Yeah," because they can say, "Well, I don't remember saying that," or "No, that's not what I said," right, and then you're left to kind of say, "No, this is my experience. This is what I heard," and if you don't have the "data," so to speak, they may just dismiss it, right? Say that you're just being sensitive or you're playing the race card or you're doing this, and then you're left totally powerless to really be able to make your argument stick.Zach: Or situations where they say, "Well, you know," to the point around race cards, like, "Maybe it's the fact that you're just not good enough, and so now you're leaning back on this as an excuse." Dr. Orbé-Austin: Mm-hmm, yeah.Zach: Well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about the concept of impostor syndrome. Like, in Season 1, it was, like, one of our first episodes actually, we were talking about impostor syndrome, but we really didn't get into, like, the science of it. We more so talked about, like, believing in yourself and, you know, knowing who you are and not trying to be fake, right, being authentic, but we didn't get into the neuroscience and, like, the genuine psychology of impostor syndrome and how it relates specifically to black and brown people. Can we talk a little bit just about what impostor syndrome is as a concept and how you would define it medically?Dr. Orbé-Austin: Sure. So first off I will say that impostor syndrome is not a diagnosable disorder, right? So it was first coined by two psychologists, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, in actually 1978, and at the time they were studying very successful female students and faculty members at an academic institution, and what they noticed was that these women, who seemingly were high achievers, did not feel as such, right? They felt that they were frauds. They felt that they were going to be exposed as not smart enough, not good enough. They, again, thought that they were impostors, so they coined that term to really speak about this phenomenon when people have difficulty internalizing their accomplishments, their skills and their experiences. They're constantly in fear of being exposed as a fraud, and as a result of that they tend to overwork to compensate for their perceived lack of ability. So when we talk about impostor syndrome, it's really that experience that someone may have that isn't necessarily a medical or mental health, you know, disorder, but it tends to be something that impacts people who, again, 70% of the population have talked about experiencing impostor feelings, and so it often though impacts people who are high achievers, because that level of success they do not attribute to their own smarts or intelligence. They attribute it to luck. They attribute it to, you know, key relationships, and so they're constantly haunted by this feeling of being a fraud.Zach: And so then, you know, what are some practical ways that impostor syndrome shows up at work?Dr. Orbé-Austin: So when we talk about impostor syndrome in general, we can talk about the fact that a lot of what we call impostor-triggering workplaces exist nowadays where in people are always feeling like they need to prove themselves over and over again, that they're never good enough, and when we talk about black and brown folks especially, they have a double burden to bear. So on the external end they're actually dealing with lies and discrimination and people and systems that are telling them that they're not good enough, that they don't belong, that somehow or another they did not earn their spot, and then they're dealing with their own internal voices that also tell them that and make them feel like, "All right, well, maybe I shouldn't be here. Maybe they are right. Maybe I was lucky. Maybe they made a mistake," and it leaves you then feeling like you don't necessarily deserve more. So at work it means you might not ask for a raise. You might not take on a key project because you fear that you'll finally be exposed if you take up that key project, which could actually give you more visibility and access, but you're concerned that it will be a house of cards and you'll finally be found out. It makes you feel often times stuck in trying to really look for a better position, either within or outside the organization, because again of this notion of "Well, I'm just lucky to be here. I shouldn't ask for too much." And it comes up when your boss or peers will say to you, "Oh, well, you made a mistake on that one thing," or "Oh, that didn't go that well," or you beat yourself up as well, because one of the key elements that goes hand in hand with impostor syndrome is perfectionism, right? Because if you feel that the only way you deserve to be anywhere is to be perfect and to overwork to strive for that perfection, then you can work yourself to the levels of burnout, and if you make any simple mistake you will beat yourself up over it and not allow yourself to really grow, learn from it and move forward.Zach: And so then what are ways that you think that organizations--'cause you talked about organizations that exacerbate impostor syndrome, right? What do you think are some ways that organizations exacerbate impostor syndrome for everybody, and then what are ways that you believe that organizations exacerbate impostor syndrome particularly for black and brown folks?Dr. Orbé-Austin: Sure. So I talk about some of the triggers in today's work culture. One of them is this notion of performance, right? When I talk to [?] organizations and ask them what their performance is and some of them will give me blank looks or they'll report back that "Oh, you know, it changes, and, you know, it's constantly shifting." If people don't have an understanding of what good performance is, right, like, what they're striving to do, then they'll feel like they're not hitting their targets and they feel, again, that they have to keep proving themselves. And so on the organization's end they may feel like "Well, that's great 'cause it's gonna drive productivity," right? But ultimately it may drive people out of the organization. It may drive people to burnout, as seen through absenteeism, as seen through, you know, different ways of not necessarily being at the level of production that people want. So the first thing I tell organizations to do is to really make sure that you have a legitimate performance process, typically not just once a year, because again, if someone doesn't know either that she's doing well or that there's room for improvement, she's just gonna keep working working working until burnout, right? So that's the first way that organizations can really address and reduce impostor syndrome. The other thing is the manager is one of the key people to deliver the message for the organization. So, you know, management needs to be trained to know and understand how to provide appropriate feedback. So you have some managers who feel like "Well, I don't give praise at all. I don't give positive feedback because people don't really deserve it. They'd have to do something great, and no one really does anything great. You know, by me giving negative feedback, it helps them to keep moving forward and get better," and that has not proven to be the case. Research does not support that notion, that the more negative feedback that you give without any positive feedback the better people will perform. So it's helping people to really understand what constructive feedback is. Again, often times people who rise to the level of manager were great individual contributors, so they don't know and haven't mastered the skill sets needed to be a good manager. To be a good manager is to really develop people, to help people grow and learn, and if you don't have that lens you will continue to make some of the same mistakes that drive impostor syndrome and sustain it, especially when we talk about black and brown folk. It's helping them to feel that they actually belong, that they're not given the projects that nobody else wants, that if they're on the team they're given some the lower level types of projects, that you actually help them to know and understand that "You deserve to be here, we respect and value your skill sets, your expertise and your experience, and we're invested in keeping you and helping you to grow," right? So often times, you know, these notions of belonging and psychological safety that I talk about tend to be overlooked by organizations because, again, for them it's just about their bottom line. They want to make sure that people are producing at the levels that they need them to, but they don't necessarily think about the cost to those individuals, and so they end up marginalizing certain people, and when those people leave, then it's this self-fulfilling prophecy of "Oh. Well, yeah, they didn't belong here anyway," and they don't really learn and understand that, well, maybe it was the organization that didn't create a welcoming enough space for them to actually excel.Zach: You know, and it's interesting when you talk about, like, performance and, like, being really clear with, like, you know, what does good look like, I think it's challenging as work continues to become less transactional, and, like, high-paying jobs become more quote-unquote "strategic" and "qualitative" and "subjective." I think, like, with that comes a danger, or at least more opportunity, to have ambiguity in terms of what good performance looks like, and it gives managers space, unconsciously, consciously, maliciously or otherwise, to create hierarchies in their mind, like, outside of whatever system you want to use to grade something. Because if work is super subjective--like, one thing about consulting, right, like, so much of consulting has to do with relationships and, like, the work itself, because you're not making X amount of widgets a day. You're putting together a PowerPoint or you're writing a paragraph, and so much of those things are again, like, just inherently subjective. Like, PowerPoint design, I mean--and I know there's plenty of folks who hate PowerPoint, but, you know, there's some PowerPoints that look great to some folks and look terrible to others. There's some people who love the way that you run a meeting and there's people who think it's the worst thing in the world, right? So it's like--I guess my question to you, as we continue to think about the future of work and we think about the more [soft?] skills are gonna be needed to do the type of work that's gonna be left when you think about what automation is gonna pick up and kind of, like, what we're going to pick up after automation digs through the rubble of work. What are ways do you think that we can still create some norms, some performance standard or expectation norms, that don't exacerbate or create, like, impostor organizations?Dr. Orbé-Austin: I think that's a great question. One of the things that immediately comes to mind is 1. being able to acknowledge just the level of inherent bias in the process as a whole, right, that we as humans, and we as machines, tend to have bias, right? So a lot of organizations are really all about technology and AI, and AI ultimately will reduce bias and discrimination, and then when we look at, you know, some of these apps that, you know, when you take a picture they can't recognize black faces or they recognize them as monkeys. We know that people make these particular programs and artificial intelligences, so being able to constantly understand, be on the lookout, for the level of bias that exists in performance reviews. So one of the things that my wife and I talk about, we do some work around gender bias, and one of the presentations we talk about is that women tend to get more vague feedback, feedback that does not allow them to, again, think about ways to improve. So, you know, you said this term "strategic" before, and that's something I will say to you that comes up a lot, that women will be like, "Well, you need to be more strategic," and I always say to my female clients, "Ask them what that means," right? What does that look like, right? Men tend to get much more tangible, concrete feedback about how to improve, so it enables them to clearly know and understand what they're striving for, right? And, you know, I think it's some of the same type of challenges with professionals of color where if they get any feedback it may not necessarily be substantial or substantive enough to help them understand how to grow. It may just be punitive. You know, I was reading this article the other day about a hiring process where different black candidates were coming in to the process, and one of the, you know, committee members kept asking and talking about, you know, dress and timeliness to the black candidates, but to the white candidates that never came up. And thankfully there was someone else on the committee who noticed that and said, "You know, I have a question for you. Like, why is it that you're asking questions about timeliness and dress to, you know, certain candidates and not others, and why is it that the candidates that you're asking it about are the black candidates?" And the woman, you know, was able to [?] enough say, "Well, you know, I used to supervise this black woman, and she used to come in late all the time, and, you know, I wasn't really happy about that, so I really wanted to kind of, you know, make sure that that was talked about," right? And so you see that she was able to even pinpoint it, right, that this was not even unconscious bias. It was a conscious bias of saying, "Hey, this is something that is not acceptable," and then we have the issues related to, like, hair discrimination now, which is a big thing that, you know, in 2020 we're still talking about how people wear their hair as a means of, you know, determining whether or not they belong is just unfathomable to me. So organizations have to be honest with the bias in their processes and in the leadership norms and culture and continue to attack it, that it's a life-long learning process, that it's not this "Okay, we're good now. We did some diversity, equity and inclusion work, and we got our certificate, so we're good to go for the next fifty years," right? It's really institutionalizing that process. It's really saying "How are we enabling all of the different people who come into our organization to feel that they belong, that they're psychologically safe, that there is room for them here?"Zach: So you said a phrase and I'm gonna follow up on that, but before I get there, you know, you talk about--and again, I'm excited because I have someone in the space, so I want to--and I've continued to say when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion work, I wish that--if there was a way I could've still got the bag, Richard, if I could have still gotten the bag and gotten into psychology, but I just couldn't see myself, like, getting the bag, not getting into that whatever, but I really am intrigued by the why behind the things that people do, right? So when you talk about giving feedback to black and brown employees, to people of color, do you think there's any role that, like, self-preservation or fragility plays into not giving into the type of feedback that black and brown folks receive? Like, in the ambiguity of the feedback as well as, like, the subjectivity of the feedback, and maybe even, like, the lack of substance in the feedback itself. Like, do you think that fragility or self-preservation plays into that?Dr. Orbe-Austin: Yes, definitely, because giving feedback is a very difficult, uncomfortable thing to do, and you can be called out when you're giving the feedback as to the things you're lacking and doing, right? So if you are a manager who doesn't feel secure in managing, right, 1. you tend to not give any kind of feedback until you have to in that year-end review, that one-time process, and there's some level of fear and anxiety, especially if you find black and brown folks more threatening, that if you give them feedback that may be upsetting that it may either come back to you in the form of them saying, "Hey, well, I also want to be able to give you some constructive feedback," and 2. if you believe that "Oh, well, they're just gonna be angry," then you will refrain from doing anything until, you know, again, you have to, and then ultimately if you don't feel that they actually belong in the organization consciously or unconsciously, it is a way for you to facilitate an exit, right? So I had another opportunity with an organization to talk about some of their challenges within their retention process, and one of the things that they raised was the reality that when they looked at the individuals who were on tips, they were consistently black employees, and the HR person, you know, thankfully said to the managers, well, "Why is that? I noticed this, and what does this mean?" Right? And it's the same way I used to talk about in schools that black males and suspended and expelled at higher rates than their white counterparts even though they may have the same levels and types of infractions, right, that some of the danger, you know, due to the fragility is "Okay, black and brown bodies are threatening to me, so therefore I have to find ways to protect myself and to punish them, either in the professional space or the academic space." So there was a case the other day where a young black male had the police called on him in his collegiate classroom because he refused to move his seat, and his white male professor decided that the way he was going to negotiate it was through punishment and to call the police to remove the young man rather than 1. recognizing that, you know, the reason he didn't want to move his seat is he had already come in, he had sat down, but the professor was trying to tell him he needed to come to the front, right? And again, like, would he have done that with a white student? Probably not.Zach: Well, you know, it's interesting too. I think that also speaks to, like, just the bizarre ways that, like, punishment for black and brown bodies, like, escalates so fast. It's like, "Wait, I went from not talking to anybody, there not being any issue, to now I'm talking to, like, someone with a huge difference in power than I have. Where did this come from? Like, how did we get here so fast?"Dr. Orbe-Austin: Yeah, it escalates. And I will say to you, you know, we talk about this issue of micro-aggressions and straight up aggressions. I remember one of the first jobs that I had, you know, while I was in graduate school was working in this college office, and again, only black male, primarily white women working in the space. It was a job to actually help, you know, primarily black and Latino students who had gotten kicked out of a four-year college--this was a community college--helping them to get back academically to a space to be able to return. So it was an advising position. I was focused on doing the work relative to helping these students. So I come in, go to my office, close my door, see my students and go, and that was not acceptable to my white female supervisor. So she decided that she needed to watch me or kind of know and understand what it was that I was doing, and chance would have it, you know, that this is where I actually met my wife, the other Dr. Orbe-Austin. She came on board, and when she came on board this woman said to her, "Well, can you watch him?" Like, you know, "'Cause you're another person of color. Can you watch him and see, like, what he's up to?" Now, mind you, this woman and her other colleagues, all her other direct reports, were white women, would go out to these long lunches, go to Lohman's, go shopping and do all these other things. I was in, you know, my office seeing these students, but I was the one who was suspect, and it got to a turning point where, you know, again I was able to connect with my wife [?], and she told me, "Yeah, I was sent to kind of surveil you," right? And it's unbelievable, right? At that stage of my life and my career that, you know, that level of micro-aggression is like, "Okay, he's doing his work, but I can't see him 'cause his door's closed." Well, my door's closed 'cause I'm talking to students and I'm dealing with them in that way, right? So that's some of the hidden ways, 'cause had my wife and I not connected and she then was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm gonna watch him and report back," then it would just be "Oh, he's lazy. He's not doing his job."Zach: Yeah. "I don't know what he's really doing. He says he's doing this, but I don't see that."Dr. Orbe-Austin: Right, and so when we talk about this issue of privilege, you know, I often talk about the fact that white privilege means that you're given the benefit of the doubt relative to competence, relative to innocence, and you just have a higher trust point, right, that people will tend to believe you and give you the benefit of the doubt even if you're not doing anything right. So that's the heavier burder that we carry, and it's not--you know, it's not playing the race card. It's not an excuse. It's the reality. It's what the data shows. It's what time and again the numbers show from a wide variety of vantage points.Zach: It's interesting, like, your point around being at work and you're a credentialed professional, right? You're doing your job, and yet there are these informal hierarchies, right, that are forming around you. You know, I've experienced that myself. Like, I've been in situations where, you know, I have people who are supposed to be junior to me or at peer level to me, but again, people are typically not as slick as they think they are, right? Like, the reality is black and brown people have to be extraordinarily vigilant in just paying attention, which we're gonna get into psychological safety in a minute, but it's just interesting because I've been in those situations more than a few times where I'll be, you know, on paper supposed to be this title, but then there's folks around and, like, I'm noticing they're kind of checking on me or they're asking a bunch of questions or they're--they feel empowered to try to coach me or tell me what I'm not doing or ask me what I'm doing or, you know, say, "Well, I talked to So-and-so, and we think you should be doing--" And it's like, "Well, who is we? You're not my boss." Okay, so again, what we're talking about and what I'm hearing, frankly I'm getting stressed just, like, re-thinking about those things and hearing you describe your experience. What are ways that leaders can create higher degrees of psychological safety so that employees, particularly black and brown ones, can work more effectively?Dr. Orbe-Austin: So one of the things I talk about, and this comes up a good deal when I do some DEI work, is psychological safety, at the end of the day, is telling someone or someone having the feeling that they can show up at work and be their true selves without fear of negative consequence, right, that they can really talk about their experiences, kind of share their beliefs and not be silenced, and a culture has to be developed in order for someone to feel that, right? And what that means on the leadership end is being able to really allow room for differing viewpoints one, not punishing people if they don't necessarily agree with what the leaders with, two really actually listening to people instead of just waiting to talk next after someone else is talking and being able to understand and have a certain level of empathy for someone else's experience. Being able to be vulnerable yourself as a leader and sharing some of the things that you may be experiencing to let people know that you're not just superhuman or perfect, that you do make mistakes. Take accountability when you do make mistakes as well to again demonstrate that it's all right for you to not have everything in order, but that, you know, it's really adopting a growth mindset of saying that, you know, we're here to do good work." At the same time, we still are striving to learn and grow in those ways, right? So creating these spaces to be able to have people have a voice is one of the easiest ways for honestly organizations to develop psychological safety, right? So it's having access to the leadership. When I meet with people and I talk about "Well, how often do you talk to even your manager?" And they're like, "Oh, you know, we meet maybe once every two or three months," and my mouth is like totally, like, open... like, yeah, that's not good, right? Like, you have to be able to build relationships with your manager. Your manager has to be able to know who you are, not just, again, as someone filling a space and making widgets, but what are your aspirations? What are your hopes and dreams? What are your plans for being in this organization? And because so much management training is lacking or is not as in-depth as it needs to be, a good deal of managers feel ill-equipped to have some of these conversations, and so they just have very much transactional types of engagements with their direct reports where in they're just wanting to know "Okay, did you do X project? Let's do a check-off," rather than really taking the role as coach/mentor/growth agent. Zach: What can individuals do to combat impostor syndrome, right? So we talked about it at the organizational level, but what can individuals do?Dr. Orbe-Austin: So we talk about in our book this model that we created called the 3 C's model, which stands for Clarify, Choose, Create, and it starts with really clarifying your impostor origin story. So we all have origin stories, and some of us are better at really being honest with it than others, but it's being able to know and recognize "Well, what may have triggered or started this impostor journey?" Often times it might be because you were labeled in your family early on as, you know, either the super smart one who makes no mistakes and so you just feel like you have to be perfect and if you make a mistake, then that means you're an impostor, or on the other hand you were labeled as the social one and another sibling or family member was labeled as the smart one, right, so then you didn't feel like, "Oh, there's room for me to be smart and social." So recognizing that the origin. Not to again blame anyone, but to know and understand where that comes from. And then the other part of Clarify is to know what your triggers are. So for a lot of people with impostor syndrome, new experiences are a trigger point. So a new job, new project, meeting new people, may help them begin to feel increasingly anxious about being found out, that "Oh, this is gonna be the job I fall apart. This is gonna be the project where I'm exposed as a fraud. This person is gonna see right through me." So knowing and understanding that and then really being able to get support for that. So the last part of clarify is to change your narrative, right? Like, we all have a particular story that we tell ourselves, and people with impostor syndrome typically have a very negative narrative about who they are and what they've accomplished and how they've accomplished it. So being able to honestly look at and own your accomplishments, really being able to say, "I really earned that because of my effort and some of the actual skill that I have." And then we go to Choose, where it's speaking your truth. So the reason often times impostor syndrome tends to be sustained is because people suffer in silence, right? Like, they feel that they're ashamed to even raise it, right? Like, if you're a senior VP, you know, everyone around you looks like--you know, all of your family members feel like "Oh, you made it," then you might be afraid to say, "Well, I'm actually not happy, and I actually feel like I'm an impostor." So there's this fear that people will ridicule you for doing that. So being able to say it out loud can be freeing to begin the process of healing that. And a part of healing it is changing not only the narrative but some of these automatic negative thoughts you may have about what people think about you, how you label yourself and how you unfairly compare yourself to others. So being able to create what we call a positive [?] instead of these immediate when something goes wrong the automatic negative thought is "Oh, I'm a failure," or "Here we go again, I'm an impostor." And then in the midst of all this it's really taking care of yourself, really being able to make self-care a key priority for yourself in choosing, and then finally, you know, the last piece of the puzzle is trying on and creating. When we talk about Create, it's experimenting with new roles. So a lot of people with impostor syndrome tend to be the helpers, the go-to person in their friend/family network, so they don't have the room to ask for support or assistance or feel ashamed to do it, to actually taking on the role of asking for help and feeling like it doesn't expose you to being weak or not being able to do things, making sure you build your dream team of support, getting a coach, getting a mentor, you know, getting people who will support you in your impostor syndrome-defeating journey, and then finally understanding that impostor syndrome can be triggered at any point in your life. So when we talk about defeating impostor syndrome, we don't talk about it as an end-all and be-all cure. We talk about it as decreasing the frequency and intensity of those feelings and that when they do occur again understanding and identifying the conditions for your optimal performance, right, which is the self-care, which is the dream team, which is changing your narrative.Zach: Man, Dr. Orbe-Austin, this is incredible. I want to make sure I give you space to plug your book, to talk about where people can learn more about you, where they can find you, all of that.Dr. Orbe-Austin: Sure. So again, I appreciate this opportunity. It's been a pleasure to chat with you. If people want to know more about the work that I do, they can go to my website, DynamicTransitionsLLP.com. So my wife and I, our consultancy is called Dynamic Transitions Psychological Consulting, LLP, so you can go online, and it will have information about the work that we do. It will have information about the book, which will come out in April. So we're really excited about that. Again, the name of the book is Own Your Greatness: Overcome Impostor Syndrome, Beat Self-Doubt, and Succeed in Life, and, you know, one of the things we felt was important when we wrote the book was to have it be something dynamic and alive, so a part of it talks about, you know, the experience of impostor syndrome, but it also then has activities for you to do to really help in overcoming impostor syndrome. So it's not necessarily solely just an academic guide to things. It's actually some practical tips and applied types of activities that will enable you to move forward in living your best life.Zach: I love it, I love it. Man, it's just been great. I'm just so excited, because I do believe--and my goal, our collective goal at Living Corporate, is to get more psychologists and psychiatrists on our platform, because when it comes to really making sure that we are centering and amplifying black and brown voices and, like, effectively empathizing with them, I think it's important to have people on who have some of the academic background and knowledge and, like, formal understanding, not only for our own sake because a lot of us can't afford or for a variety of reasons, you know, don't have those resources, but maybe this will encourage us to go seek help that we desperately need just as an output of being a part of an oppressive capitalistic patriarchal system. But I also think it's important that we have folks like you on for the folks who are not black and brown who listen to our platform, because so often times education is used as a barrier to not listen to black people, black and brown people, or hear our stories. This, like, Euro-centric, like, demand for quantitative data and research that in itself is inherently biased, but whatever. So I'm just thankful that you're here, that's what I'm trying to say, okay? I appreciate you.Dr. Orbe-Austin: Well, I appreciate you creating this platform, because when I heard about it I was so excited to kind of engage with you, because as I've talked about many times, a lot of our folks, particularly in these corporate spaces, are suffering in silence and may feel like they're the only ones having some of these struggles, and I think you present a space for them to not feel that they need to go through it alone, and you provide a certain level of hope and strategies for them to really be able to free themselves from some of the things that may be more corrosive to their quality of life and really being able to help them believe they can live their best lives.Zach: Man, I mean... [applause sfx] You know, that's claps for both of us, you know what I mean? We're both celebrating right now. All right, y'all, look. This has been Living Corporate, okay? Really glad that y'all were able to stop by. You heard Dr. Orbe-Austin and all of the information. Make sure you check it out in the show notes. Make sure you check us out at living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. If you want to check us on the social media, we all over the place. Just Google Living Corporate and we'll pop up. Until next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the honor of speaking with Great Place to Work CEO Michael C. Bush about GPTW itself and the process of creating a great place to work. Michael generously shares what he believes executives should be thinking about when it comes to building better trust within organizations and talks about where he sees Great Place to Work continuing to grow and expand to capture more marginalized voices and experiences.Connect with Michael on LinkedIn and Twitter.Check out Great Place to Work's website. You can review their most recent lists by clicking here.Follow GPTW on social media. They're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Interested in Michael's book? Find out more about it on Amazon.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and man, you know what we do. We center and amplify underrepresented voices in the workplace by having authentic, available, and frankly incredible conversations with some incredible guests, and, you know, today is no different, right? Like, we've had who, we've had Robin DiAngelo on, we've had Ruchika Tulshyan, we've had--we've had professors, we've had executives, we've had activists--we've had DeRay Mckesson--we've had all types of folks on the podcast, on the platform, and today is just incredible because we have Michael C. Bush. Michael C. Bush is the CEO of Great Place to Work, the global research and analytics firm that produces the annual Fortune 100 Best Companies to Work For lists. So you know when y'all, you know, see companies and they have, like, the little badge and it'll say, "Oh, we're, like, #5 great place to work," this person we're speaking to is the CEO of Great Place to Work, y'all. This is a big deal. I'm not trying to overhype it. I don't think I can overhype it. I'm just trying to give proper context to who we have on the show. You know, the 100 Best Workplaces for Women list, the Best Workplaces for Diversity list, and dozens of other distinguished workplace rankings around the world. Since 2015, Michael Bush has expanded Great Place to Work’s global mission to build a better world by helping organizations create Great Places to Work not just for the some, but For All. Under his leadership, the firm has developed a higher standard of excellence that accounts for fair and equitable treatment of employees across demographic groups, as well as executive leader effectiveness, innovation, and financial sustainability. His book, A Great Place to Work For All, outlines the compelling business and social benefits that come from these efforts. Michael, first of all, how are you doing?Michael: I'm doing great. Thank you, and honored to be with you today.Zach: It's a pleasure. Now, I'm asking--you know, we're in the midst of a global pandemic, and I would be remiss if I didn't ask how are you doing with your family. Is everyone safe and well? Friends and family, loved ones?Michael: Thanks for asking. Yeah, the world has really changed in the past 45 days, but I'm doing well. I'm sheltering in place here in Oakland, California, with family nearby, so everything's good, and I hope the same for you.Zach: You know, everything is good. It's interesting. It's an interesting time. My wife and I just welcomed our first child into the world just a handful of weeks ago, and it's just an interesting time to be new parents, right, with so much chaos, you know, seemingly all around us, or uncertainty around us, but life is beautiful nonetheless.Michael: Well, congratulations to you and your wife, and yeah, you couldn't have brought, you know, a baby into the world at a crazier time, you know, but things are always a little bit crazy, and what a story you're gonna be able to share with your baby, you know, and we're just gonna do what we're always gonna do, which is make the world a lot better from here.Zach: I love it, absolutely. So let's get into it, right? We talked about it a little bit in the bio that I read. You've been the CEO of Great Place to Work for over 5 years, going on 5 years. Can we talk about your first 100 days as the CEO and, like, what did that look like, you just kind of stepping into that role. And then, you know, in these past five years--I guess Part B to the question is what have you been most proud of since taking the helm?Michael: Yeah. Well, when I stepped into the role in 2015, I got into the role in a strange way. I was actually hired by the founder of Great Place to Work to sell the company, and I had done a lot of turnaround work in the past, and so I came in and worked to do that, and to make a long story short I ended up getting an investment partner and buying the business. So that's how I got into it, and then one of the things that I knew is that I felt like having the analytics of what really was going on for working people all around the world and knowing that there are a lot of working people who never really get a fair shot at being developed, never get a fair shot at being promoted, never get a fair shot at being recognized and rewarded, that I could use--I hoped--the data and the analytics to use recognition to get organizations to change, and so that's really when we made the change, almost instantly, to Great Place to Work for All. I thought that we'd have a platform, and at that time, you know, you never know how things are gonna work out. The business was technically bankrupt, so the first 100 days were what you have to do when you're turning around a company that's bankrupt, which is you have to stop all the money flowing out of the company. So a lot of tough decisions, a lot of tough days where you're just pruning the rose bush so that you can grow, and those times are very difficult, but that's really what the first 100 days were about. Not too much about the future. A lot of pain in trying to cut costs, but we got through it.Zach: When you talk about, like, Great Place to Work for All, like, clearly that's a point of pride for you and, like, kind of continuing to shift and expand the platform or the position that you stepped into. Can we talk a little bit about what it was about that particular--like, why you took that angle, and, like, why was that your point of determined growth for Great Place to Work?Michael: Yeah. Zach, I think the thing that helped me was having a lot of business experience and having been a CEO before as well as working with CEOs. One of the things I knew is that most CEOs, while they talk articulately and clearly and passionately about diversity and inclusion, it's not something they think about that much, you know? They think about it during Black History Month, you know, or other things like that, but beyond that they really don't think about it that much, so it's kind of a head fake because you can hear these things that are very optimistic and passionate, but in fact they just don't think about them that much, and so--they're CEOs, which means they're thinking about other things like shareholder value, stakeholder value, but this one isn't one of 'em. They delegate it, and so they typically delegate it to a chief of diversity and inclusion or maybe a chief of people or a CHRO, but it's delegated, you know? It's not something that they lose a lot of time thinking about, and so I knew that and knew a lot of people, you know, doing diversity and inclusion work, and the common experience was "If you get to a CEO and you say, "Hey, I'd like to talk to you about diversity and inclusion," and they go, "Oh, talk to my chief of diversity and inclusion and I'll see you later." And so they're gone. So I was trying to find a way of keeping them in the conversation by not bringing up diversity and inclusion, and we did that. So when you talk about Great Place to Work for All, they don't leave the room because they're like, "Hey, I'm into that because, you know, that includes me," and also Great Place to Work for All has superior financial business performance. We've got all the data on that, so now they hang in the room, and now they're there and they're present, and now you have an opportunity to share data and information with them to get them into the conversation and hopefully leading the conversation. So it's really--for me it was a Trojan horse. It was how to get into the castle walls and not have somebody come out the castle walls, you know, that was delegated to talk about diversity and inclusion. I felt that the CEO needed to be in that conversation just like they're in the conversation when they're buying the company. They have a head of M&A, but they're in that conversation, so I thought that we could make that happen, and so far so good.Zach: Well, no, it's a great point, and something that you just said rung true with me. I think another example is, like, HSC, right? Like, you talk about health and safety environments, like, the CEO is going to be involved in that conversation by some degree because they recognize the business value and just, like, the imperative of safety for their workplace. Like, they may not be in every single part of the conversation, but they're going to be engaged. If there are other parts of the organization that executive leaders, that CEOs want to be plugged into, I think it's interesting. As much growth as diversity and inclusion has seen, I think that certain language and buzzwords kind of, like, trigger disengagement from the senior-most people. So I find that really interesting and powerful that you were able to figure out kind of, like, I don't want to say the cheat code, but, like, the way to kind of mitigate that a bit.Michael: Yeah, yeah. Cheat code. I hadn't thought about it like that, but that's kind of what it is, and whatever works, you know? Kind of by any means necessary, and so we found that this works, and it not only works in the U.S. When I first did for the for All and started moving it around the world, the first thing we got was resistance because, first of all you're coming from the U.S., and the racial issues are--in the U.S. they are on display for everyone to see and the rest of the world looks at it, but the rest of the world doesn't look at themselves, and so the very resistance was "Well, you're coming from the U.S. We don't have racial issues," which is crazy, because it doesn't matter which country you go to, there's racial issues. But they're not seen the same way. They don't--people don't really self-reflect in the same way. And then, you know, so I was bumping into that, and then what began to happen was people in Sweden started talking about, "Well, really, you know, women aren't treated family," and so for them for All meant that. And so wherever you were in the world - Japan, you know, women, and so there was always some group of people in every country that was treated differently in terms of opportunity and promotion and getting into the C-Suite for example than others. So then it just took off. Then it just took off and really, outside the U.S., it's been embraced more strongly than inside the U.S., 'cause in the U.S., you know, people do say, "Are you using a cheat code?" You know? They're kind of more suspicious, but around the world the thing has really just taken off, and, you know, the book is now in I think 11 different languages and so on just because of that, and CEOs now want to be linked a message that gets them a lot of brand value, and so Great Place to Work for All gets them a lot of brand value. If they talk too much about diversity and inclusion, you know, they actually get blowback from the dominant group in the workforce, and so this is a way that they can get out in front and be totally, totally inclusive without saying inclusive.Zach: It's interesting too that, like, you know, the amount of work that goes into that, right? How can we be inclusive while at the same time not oversignaling to the point where we actually lose the folks in the room who we need to be engaged to create, you know, systemic change and a sense of belonging for everybody? That really kind of leads me to my next question. You know, you're the first--yes, you're the first black male CEO of, like, a major organization or company that we've had on Living Corporate, right? So we've had, like, different senior leaders and executives and directors, but you're the first CEO that we've had. Can we talk a little bit about the role that your previous experience--'cause you talked about it before, about you were a CEO before this, you had industry experience before coming to Great Place to Work--and how your identity plays a role in some of the things that you do and the relationships that you have to make and maintain in your current position?Michael: Yeah. A lot of times people will ask, you know, "How do you get to a CEO?" And the answer is I started, you know, my own company in 1994, and so it really began by breaking out of corporate America. So it wasn't being within it, it was breaking outside of it. There are other journeys. I'm familiar with them. I have, you know, close friends who have done the corporate journey and been able to get to the CEO role. That's one path. It's a very different path than the one that I know the most about, which is the entrepreneurial path. And being an entrepreneur isn't for everybody, just like being a corporate CEO isn't for everybody. It takes two different personalities and two different skill sets really. But for me, on the entrepreneurial path, it was getting a feeling that I was never gonna really be comfortable in the corporate environment. I was never gonna be comfortable. I was always gonna be doing some shapeshifting in that environment, and so once I broke out, okay, then it was great, because I was able to break out and do the things that I needed to do to be successful, and the thing about, you know, so then how do you grow and how do you get to do more, what you gotta do is make rich people more money. So it's--the key is that, you know? It's you better be delivering that value. And so if you create value for people, you have friends for life, and so then you can start to be able to use that momentum. So all of the things that I've done, just like Great Place to Work, what I talk about is profitability. What I talk about is cash flow. So I talk to CEOs about the things that matter to them most. It's all about that. Now, this is the way you do it, but I always go through that door, and I've always gone through that door so people know it's about profitability, it's about EBITA, it's about cash flow, it's about growing market share, and this is the way you do it. You know, this is a way to do it, but it's a business helping another business do a lot more business. I have the data to prove if you make it a Great Place to Work for All you're gonna crush your competitors, you know? The companies that are on our list that are Great Places to Work for All outperform the S&P 500, the Russell 2000 and 3000 by a factor of 3:1, including today, you know, as the market drops. Our companies don't drop as much and they rebound quicker during recovery. So having the data and the analytics, always leading with those numbers, never going to the morally right thing to do but always being about the business enables the CEO to stay there so I can actually--the CEO doesn't leave the room because there aren't a lot of D&I people talking about EBITA, earnings and cash flow. They're talking about other things. So, you know, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying--Zach: It's just the reality of the environment, right?Michael: It's just the reality of the environment, and if you're talking to a CEO about the things they care about, which are those financial metrics, you can begin to talk to them about a lot of things, because they know they're talking to somebody that everything I say is gonna be about enhancing those metrics.Zach: You know, that leads me--Michael, it's almost like you do this a lot, right? It's almost like you talk to folks and you do meetings, interviews, quite a bit, 'cause you're just--you're helping me out. Without getting too much into the secret sauce, like, we understand that Great Place to Work, like, y'all's list is not something that's, like, qualitative, but it's a variety of quantitative analytics, points of measurement. Can you talk a little bit about how the data analytics behind the Great Place to Work rankings has evolved over time and what influenced, if anything, the way that Great Place to Work determines if a company is indeed a Great Place to Work.Michael: Yeah. So we ask the same 60 questions of every company we do business with in 98 countries around the world, so that's one thing that makes us different. Other companies kind of tailor the question set. We're like, "No. We know people. We've got 30 years of data on people." People, you know, the norms might be different, the willingness of a worker to say what they think and what they want might be--they might be more willing and open to it in one country versus another due to social norms, but at the bottom people want the same thing, and so we measure those things. People want to be respected by the people that they work for, so we ask 11 questions that let us know whether you feel respected or not. People want to work for somebody who they feel is transparent with them, so we ask about 9 questions about that. And people want to be treated fairly more important than anything else, so we ask 14 questions about that. And then people want to enjoy the people that they work with and people want to be proud of their work, which means they feel cared for and they care for the people around them, that's what really drives high-performing work, people caring about one another. It's not stock options. Those things don't have the stamina of people. They have to feel like they're doing something they couldn't do on their own and be connected by some sense of purpose. So we measure those things. We ask these questions. We're an analytics company. It's all about the numbers, and we do this with 10 million employees and 10,000 companies every year, so across every single industry. There's not an industry that we don't survey in. So therefore we've got a huge data set to let people know when your people are feeling that in this part of the world things aren't fair, we tell you what that's gonna do to EBITA and profitability and earnings and revenue in that part of the world. We can go straight to the correlation between the employee experience and revenue and these financial metrics, and in some metrics we can go to some causation. We can actually tell you if people aren't feeling emotionally or psychologically or physically safe, those, what I just said, safety defined with those other three attributes drives earnings, you know? It drives earnings is how safe people feel, so we measure those things and therefore can let you know, "Hey, when we see this set of data, we know these people are updating their LinkedIn profiles. They may still be working for you, but they are looking for the next thing to do. So we call it presenteeism. They're present, but they are looking for a way out. So now the data can be used with artificial intelligence to predict what's gonna happen with people. You can see that a person pulls on their--the economy is going good and a person pulls on their 401K and then doesn't return in time not to pay a penalty on that. This person's undergoing some financial pressure, and the financial pressure they're going through affects through employee experience, so we can alert a company that "Hey, you've got a problem here because we can see in this data." So it's all about the data, it's all about the 60 questions, and we measure the employee experience, how they feel about the people they work with, whether they feel like management involves them in decisions that affect them, whether they trust management, whether they have confidence in management. So we ask a set of questions where we can let a leader know exactly what's going on and then compare that so we can--if you're a tech company and you get the data and you don't really know what to think, well, we have a benchmark against other tech companies, and then you go "Whoa, okay, these companies are actually outperforming me in these areas. I want to do something about it." So benchmarking is very important. You can see how Latin America is doing versus South America versus North America or men versus women or people of color versus majority or members of the LGBTQ community versus the majority. You can do all the demographic cuts. The biggest change we made in our methodology since I got involved were these demographic comparisons to see if it was a great place to work for all versus a great place to work for some. That's the revolutionary breakthrough that we've made, and so our lists today are different from the lists in the past because we reward companies that treat everyone the same, where employees are having the same experience and the same in an equitable way, which we're able to measure.Zach: You know, you talked a bit about--you mentioned, like, predictive analytics there, and I'm curious, how far away--and if we're already here, then let me know, but how far away are we from predicting, like, lawsuits or, like, legal action by employees who feel, like, psychologically, emotionally, physically unsafe, who feel, like, discriminated against and things of that nature and then, like, present that to organizations and say, "Hey, look, you have a serious problem, and here's the likelihood of X happening, and then here's the amount of damages that would cost to your brand over X amount of time." Do you think we're anywhere close to that? Do you think that's anything that would be relevant or pertinent for organizations to have?Michael: Well, for some companies they're able to do it right now, and you're talking about where we're heading, absolutely where we're heading. So if you've got an HR system of record on Oracle or a [?] or an SAP or Ultimate software, if you've got an HR system of record--which is a platform that has the payroll information on the employee, the use of benefits on the employee, something around the performance management of the employee, and you have an employee engagement tool that's doing the measuring, and those two are nested and the data can flow between them, you have what you need. And so there are other companies who have what they need and others are heading there now. This is the movement to be able to ask an employee a set of questions and predict what's going on with them and what you need to create a better experience for that employee, which is usually around development and opportunities and promotions and feedback. That's mainly what most people need. Sometimes tailored benefits around things that are going on in their life, like everybody's kind of living through right now. So this is happening at companies now. I'm very much aware of it. We're involved in it by nesting our tool on top of these other platforms, but I would say big companies, Fortune 500 companies, will be totally in this game in 5 years, you know, 100%, and then products will be developed for medium-sized companies and will be in the marketplace--you know, start to enter in about 3 years.Zach: I just find that so intriguing, right? Like, I think about the fact that there's already tools out there that are being mobilized within the next, like, half--within this decade, right? We're gonna start seeing--Micheal: Easily, yeah. At the end of the decade this will--we won't be talking about this.Zach: It won't even be a point of discussion. It's gonna be "Hey, look, no. Your data says this. There's an X percent chance of this happening, and we need to make some adjustments now."Michael: It's absolutely gonna happen, and so machines are already now--at Amazon machines are recommending people for promotion. Machines are recommending people for termination. Machines are doing that. So they're kind of on the cutting edge. Not saying that they're doing that in a great way, I'm just saying--Zach: The technology is out there and it's happening.Michael: It's out there. They're using machine learning tools to make those decisions. Others are going to move on that, and the key is how do you do those things in a way that employees can trust it? Which is a big difference between machine learning and artificial intelligence when there is no trust and a big difference between machine learning and artificial intelligence when there is trust, and if you think about the 60 questions we answer, what are we really, really measuring? It's trust. That's really what we're measuring. Now, we can define it in all its dimensions, but it's trust. Respect is a part of trust. Credibility, transparency is a part of trust. Fairness is a part of trust. So trust is really what we're measuring. We could just double-click all over it to get you additional information, but it's all about trust.Zach: You know, I think--and for me, I'm always curious about when it comes to these lists--and I say this as somebody, of course I love what y'all are doing. I love Great Place to Work. It's the definitive listing space, right? I think it's also interesting because as a black man who has a network of a ton of black and brown people, right, like, we'll look at some of these lists and like, "Dang, okay." I recognize that the overall maybe brand of a company may be really strong, and it's ranked or whatever, but then I wonder like, "Okay, how do I reconcile that with, like, stories that I'm hearing from marginalized people who have had, like, real challenges at these companies?" And I'm curious to know, like, where do you see Great Place to Work continuing to grow and expand to capture, like, marginalized voices and experiences?Michael: Yeah. So Zachary, that's where I was in 2015, exactly where you were, meaning looking at a company--at that time thinking about buying it, looking at the list of the places that were ranked as Great Places to Work, and I knew people of color having horrible experiences in those companies. That's why I bought it, because I'm like, "I think we can do something about this. We can reorder it." And if you look at, you know, 2014, 2013, the companies at the top of that list, they're not at the top now, okay? They're not at the top now, so that's really what happened, but I was exactly where you were and definitely driven to do that. So what it has enabled is, you know, I'm not satisfied by any means. I'm satisfied by the progress, but not by where we are. You know, the thing I talk about it, the bullseye all the time for me is 2030, that that's when we need to get this right, which means--you know, our analytics are driven by algorithms, and so you've got to continually modify the algorithms, and when you modify the algorithm, you've got to live with that algorithm and its output for a year, then you modify it and you've got to live with it for a year. So it's frustrating because it takes a long time, but, you know, we're at the place now where we can say to a company that "Hey, we've measured the experience of different demographic groups, people of color, and we can double-click on it and so on, and their experience is very different from these other groups, therefore you're falling down or off the list." We can do it on that basis now, which that wasn't happening in 2015. There was no way of doing it. We do it now. So we call it maximizing human potential. That's another cheat code, but what it is is we compare one demographic group to another. We reward companies where the gap is small and we penalize companies where the gap is huge. So you can no longer be "80% of our people are having a great time." We go into the people who have given a one or a two response on the Likert scale, you know, that are saying, "My manager involves me in the decisions that affect me? Never or almost never." Okay, well, we grab that group and compare it and put--we give weight to that, a group that it was never done. Another thing is--you know, in terms of there's other lists out there that are recognizing companies, none of them are surveying employees. So really those are marketing-driven exercises.Zach: Right. Those are smiley faces, right?Michael: They are. You know, they're just doing something very different, and so for us, we can let you know--like our diversity lists. You know, there's a few diversity lists, you know, kind of out in the world that are well-known. There's only one that measures and scores the experience of under-represented people. That's Great Place to Work. Our list is driven by their experience, so it doesn't matter, you know, frankly, what white males think about their work experience. We don't measure it for those lists. You know, we don't measure it for those lists. We look at underrepresented people. That's what drives that list. We look at their experience, because that's what it is. For the 100 Best we look at everybody, but we don't for that. So it took us a while, because if I had done that immediately I'd be out of business. So, you know, you've got to build some brand strength and get people to, you know, understand what you're doing and that you're a rational person who wants to grow their business. So it took some time, but we're almost there. I don't feel like we're there right now. We're almost there where we are just pulling in representation into our final ranking criterion. So I feel like we're just about there, and it's enabling us to have some great CEOs who loved being on our list, but now we're able to say, "Hey, guess what?" Even though, you know, we have some companies that, you know, 60, 70% of their workforce are people of color, and they're having a great experience, which is great, but then we look at the top team and we're like, "That doesn't look like them." But the good news is you can have that disconnect and a group of people having a great experience. So that's wonderful, but just think how much better they could be if they could look up and say, "Hey, if I keep working real hard, it's possible for me to get there." "I feel respected now, but I'd really feel respected if that's true." So we're able to talk to CEOs and say, "I know you're happy now." Nobody in hospitality is happy today, but [?] they were happy, 90 days ago they were happy, and you could say, "I know this is great, and I know you're providing a great experience for these people, all these people. That's incredible. We think, you know, the world of you, but you need to do something about this because you'll really unlock them," and the kind of CEOs we deal with, which are the ones who get how this drives their profitability and earnings--and most of these have some moral connection as well in the way that they want to be seen and the way that they want their families to see them. That's kind of another lens that affects a CEO's mindset. So then they go, "Okay, look, I got it," and they don't have to do it, but they choose to do it. So that's when I know, "Okay, this is working now," that this is enabling them to be who they want to be. And a lot of CEOs, I've done a lot of work on the following where you have a CEO moving through their career and just having a great career, a lot of power, a lot of influence, they're happy and satisfied, and then they have a daughter. It changes 'em forever, because then they're like, "I want my daughter to get paid equal pay," but at the company they're running, it's not happening. All of a sudden they start to look at equal pay differently because they had a daughter. I've seen this time and time again, a CEO with a daughter, a CEO with a kid with autism, a CEO with a kid with mental health issues. It modifies the behavior of that CEO and how they--which is great, but that shape-shifting move blows the door open for being a great place to work for all. Now it becomes their thing. They start saying it because they have this new desire to do something and to change the way that others view them and the way that they view themselves.Zach: So first of all this has been an incredible conversation, and, you know, we're coming up on time, Michael, but what I want to do is I want to go back to a word that you used earlier, trust, and really that a lot of these questions go back to--the rankings and the analytics go back to--quantifying trust, and I'm curious to know if you could give us, like, three points of thought that executives should be thinking about when it comes to building better trust within organizations? What would those three points be?Michael: I think that fairness is the most important. So the way you treat a group of people, whether they be analytics versus non-analytics, accountants versus engineers, you need to treat people the same. People read when you're not doing that. They are paying attention to whether you're doing that or not. So being consistent in the way you talk to people, respond to people, what you tweet and what you don't, it matters. So fairness is what's most important, and then making sure your actions--if you say that, you know, diversity drives innovation, people are gonna look and see if you really think that's true. So if you're saying diversity drives innovation and your executive team is not diverse, then now you lose credibility and you're not being transparent and people think it's not fair. The whole pyramid collapses based on you saying one thing and you're actually doing another, and then you want to take a look at your board of directors. You want to take a look at your executive team. You want to take a look at your pipeline and make sure that in 2023 things are going to be different. You want to make sure companies now are restructuring or laying people off. Well, look at the pool that you're laying off. Look at the pool you're restructuring. If you're not careful you're gonna erase ten years of gains is what you're doing right now. So these are the things that build trust. These are the things, fairness more important than anything else. The reason there's resistance to D&I efforts is somehow white men--some--feel like money's being taken out of their pockets.Zach: Right, this scarcity mindset, right?Michael: Yeah, the zero sum game, so you have to--if you have an ERG for African-American professionals, Asian-American professionals, you need to have one that a white male says, "I identify with this one. I identify with this one." They gotta have one too. You can't ignore anyone. It has to be for all.Zach: Michael, this has been great. I just gotta thank you again. Before we go, I'll give you a chance - any shout-outs or parting words, man?Michael: I think that entrepreneurism is a journey that's not for everybody. If you're thinking about it explore it, you know? Talk to some entrepreneurs and see what it's like, but do an honest check with you as to whether or not it's good for you. And then if you're in the corporate environment, lead with the data. You know, the data is what you're gonna need. And know that even if you have all the data, if there are people who aren't interested in diversity and inclusion, you know, the data's not gonna get it done. So, you know, get the data, use the data, make your case with the data, and if you find things are still slow, that's because the leader you're talking to just doesn't want to make a difference. You know, they don't want to change, and so then I'd update my LinkedIn profile and try to find some place where people are using data in the way that they use it for every other decision, whether it be M&A or anything else. You don't want anything different in the D&I area. You just want the consistent behavior, but don't bang your head too long or you're gonna find yourself with a headache.Zach: Michael, thank you so much, man. Look, we're gonna talk to you soon. We consider you a friend of the show. Honored, pleasure to have you. All right, y'all, so that does it for us. This has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these authentic conversations even during the rona. I pray that everyone is staying safe out there. You know where to check us out. You can just Google us. We're all over the place, okay? Living Corporate. You type that in and we're gonna pop up on something. You make sure you check us out on our website, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, okay? Livingcorporate dot... shoot, all the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com. We've already talked about this. So if you type in livingcorporate.com it's gonna take you to some Australian website. [?] Australia, but we don't have that domain, okay? So livingcorporate.co, .us, .tv, or living-corporate.com. 'Til next time, y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Michael C. Bush, CEO of Great Place to Work. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach chats with Fortune senior editor Ellen McGirt about her journey to writing on race and leadership and what fuels her to do this work, and she graciously details the dynamic of what it looks like for her to talk about these topics with majority-white executive leaders while breaking down how it works for her as a journalist. Ellen's reporting has taken her inside the C-Suites of Facebook, Nike, Twitter, Intel, Xerox and Cisco and on the campaign trail with Barack Obama - check out all of her information in the show notes!Connect with Ellen on LinkedIn and Twitter, and check out her Fortune.com newsletter raceAhead.Follow Fortune on social media. They're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and man, goodness gracious. Wild times we're living in. I hope that you're washing your hands, keeping your hands off your face, not congregating in groups of more than 10--just chilling really, right? Take care of yourself, take care of your family. I hope that you've been listening to the content that Living Corporate has been putting out regarding just working from home and still maintaining community while working from home. Just taking care of yourself. I'm hoping that you're able to engage in our content, and irrespective of that I'm just hoping that you're safe. You know, we always have conversations on this platform that aim to center and amplify underrepresented voices, and I think that we continue to separate ourselves as it pertains to doing that, right? Like, we're trying to be unapologetic about really amplifying and centering marginalized, underrepresented and underappreciated, underestimated voices at work, and we do this by having authentic, available, candid, transparent--any other words you want to use for real--conversations with all types of people. Authors, writers, professors, activists, executives, recruiters, entrepreneurs, influencers, artists, right? Like, anybody that is passionate about this space, and with that being said, we have somebody on who honestly--and I don't know why I'll always say, "I'm really a fan of this person," but I really am a fan. Like, this person, if y'all--anyway, we'll get into it. Ellen McGirt. Ellen McGirt is an award-winning journalist, senior editor at Fortune Magazine, and covers race, culture and leadership in a daily column for Fortune called "RaceAhead". Make sure y'all check out RaceAhead. We'll talk about that a little bit later, but it's fire. Her reporting has taken her inside the C-Suites of Facebook, Nike, Twitter, Intel, Xerox and Cisco--now, look, those are just a few, okay? 'Cause that's not exhaustive--the campaign trail with Barack Obama--what's up, come on--and across Africa with Bono to study breakthrough philanthropy. In the past, she’s written for Time, Money and Fast Company, where she wrote or contributed to more than twenty cover stories and created the digital series "The 30 Second MBA." Back when the web was young, [laughs]--so that's when Al Gore was, like, you know, like, a little less stodgy. Like, this was earlier. She was the founder of a financial website for women called "Cassandra’s Revenge," and she established similar sites for AOL and Oxygen Media. Y'all, she established sites for--it's crazy, 'cause I'm reading this and I'm like--as if I haven't read this before, but it's just wild when you think about, like, sites for AOL. Like, that's back in the day. You know, some of y'all don't remember. You had to log on, and then, like, the little man would be on the screen, and then, you know, you couldn't be on the computer, and then your mom would be on the phone 'cause--the busy signal 'cause you had dial-up, and you'd pick up the phone and it'd be like *noise*. Anyway, so the point is, like, she's OG. OG in the game. Ellen was the lead editor for Your First Leadership Job, a book published by Wiley in 2015, and she attended Brown University. Ellen, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ellen: I am exhausted after listening to my bio. My gosh, I've been busy. But so happy to be here, Zach. Thank you.Zach: Now, look, first off we gotta shout you out, because you were one of the first articles that we cited on Living Corporate, "Why Race & Culture Matter in the C-Suite," talking about leading while black. Can we talk a little bit about that piece and your journey on writing in race and leadership?Ellen: 100% we can, 'cause that really kicked off a whole new career development for me. But before we do I have to shout you right back, Zach. I mean, when I stepped into this space of writing about race, particularly for the corporate world, I was stepping into a space where giants already inhabited the world, and you are one of them, and I appreciate you, and I just want to let you know that at moments when I really don't know what to do, what to write, what to think about what's happening in the world, I've got your voice in my head, and you steer me in the right directions, so I appreciate you.Zach: Would you stop? Oh, my gosh.Ellen: That's the thing. But that's also the thing. I know that you know this from doing this work, which is different from, you know, your day job and your home life and it's just a distinct part of what you do, is that when you decide to talk about race and inclusion, particularly in the workplace and what that means in the world, you inherit a whole bunch of people who you didn't know who existed who have been thinking about how to make the world better in this challenging way, and that's the blessing of the work. It really is.Zach, You know, speaking of the work, why do you think so few folks discuss the intersection of race and leadership in major publications? This is not even really an ad for Fortune, right? Shout-out to Fortune. What's up? But, you know, I don't see this a lot. You know, you see pieces from time to time in Harvard Business Review, but I don't think I've seen dedicated spaces for this intersection of race and leadership in white-owned publications. Like, why do you think that is, and what's your fuel for doing this work?Ellen: You know, this leads me right back to your first question. You know as well as anybody who is reading business material or even news magazines or news material that race is just not something people are willing to talk about, are comfortable talking about, and I think for Fortune, which writes for the business audience--and not just any business audience, for a corporate audience--this is not something that had ever been taken on seriously in the corporate world before, and in addition to subscribers, in addition to people showing up at our events, major corporations actually are our advertisers and our sponsors. In many ways, we are paid for by the people that we cover. So it is an inherent tension, and we do have to walk that fine line. I know you and I have talked about this in the past. So imagine my surprise, you know? [laughs] I hadn't worked at Fortune in years. I had left in 2006 and joined a competitor for many, many years, which you mentioned. I had worked on a book. I was sort of looking around for my next act, and I get a ping out of the blue from Cliff Leaf, who is now the editor-in-chief, asking me if I would be willing to write a piece about why there's no black men in the executive pipeline in Fortune 500 companies. So two things leaped to mind. "Oh, my gosh. Of course yes," and the second one is "There really must not be anybody as part of just Fortune's daily lives who felt comfortable writing a piece like this," which reflected just how tentative it all is for everyone. News rooms are not as diverse as they should be. Corporate America isn't. Nothing is as diverse as it should be. So in my first conversation with Cliff--and I have to also shout-out Alan Murray, who's now our CEO--then our president--you know, this is something that people, that they cared about, brought to their attention, as something that would be welcome in the marketplace, and to their credit, two white men stood behind me and said, "We pick you. Let's see what happens," and my conversation with Cliff is this can't just be about data. This just can't be an inspiring conversation with a beleaguered chief diversity officer somewhere,who we all know doesn't get the resources that they need. We need to look at what happens that black men very specifically, from the time they're born, in under-resourced neighborhoods, in neighborhoods without sufficient food resources and with environmental issues, to the time they don't get to the C-Suite. And where are we losing them? We're losing them in school, where they're--under-resourced school or biased treatment, disproportionate treatment while they're in school. We're losing them into the criminal justice system, and we know how that works out. We're losing them through a series of biased decisions and screening mechanisms which are systemic. Hell, if their mothers survive their birth with them we're losing them every step of the way, and that was what that first story was intended to do, was to look at it from that holistic point of view. And Zach, it worked. It almost killed me, but it worked, because, you know, in order to do it I had to take the testimony of men just like you, and some not like you--younger than you, in different stages than you, [?], young men who would never join the corporate world for any reason because they don't trust it--and put that, their pain and their regrets and their pressures and their inability to cope with some of the unique pressures they experience, on full view, and that kicks us off with an opening to have more of these types of conversations in longform and print and in a daily newsletter, which had--to my knowledge--not been explored in this way in any business publication. We were growing a newsletter of business, but it was particularly--it was usually sector-oriented. Like, here's tech, or here's healthcare. You know, those are the kinds of things we tend to gravitate to. "Here's mergers and acquisitions." The exceptions were Alan Murray's CEO Daily, which is about leadership, which is, of course, top of mind news, top of the heap, and Broadsheet, which is for women and [?] corporate women which has inspired me from the very beginning and has turned into literally my sisters in inclusive thinking. Like, really advocating for what would make the workplace better for people who should be there in larger numbers. And it was an accident, it was an experiment, and I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.Zach: Well, you know, it's incredible, and I'ma tell you, like, I read it--and Living Corporate's format back then was a little bit different, but I hope that I gave it justice when I read it on the podcast because it was just--it really resonated with me, and I remember, you know--'cause you were profiling the now-passed on--rest in peace--Bernard Tyson, and I just recall at the time, like, even reading the piece and the way you talked about Mr. Tyson and just his journey, it was almost just like reading, like, about a mythical figure, right? So it meant a lot. It meant a lot to me, and I know it's meant a lot to our listenership. And a little bit behind the scenes actually, that particular episode is one of our most referenced--and that was, like, early. I mean, y'all, this was almost--this was two years ago, right? This was in our first, like, 10 or 15 episodes. This is one of our most downloaded episodes actually, like, to date. So you talked about it--you know, you said the piece, it almost killed you, and you made mention of, like, really, I believe--without putting words in your mouth--you were alluding to the emotional labor of the work. Can you talk a little bit about what it looks like to do the work and, like, how you maintain in really grappling these types of topics day in and day out?Ellen: You know, I am one of many, many people in many professions, for a variety of reasons, who have to look at the human condition. And when you talk about race or gender in particular, then it's also my condition. It's how I have been left out or how my father, who served in World War II in the segregated Army came home and couldn't vote or participate in home ownership programs for other veterans. You know, it's the weight of that. It's the understanding of the history and the extent of it and our unwillingness to examine it without distensiveness. That is just--it weighs so heavily. When I have candid conversations with people like Bernard Tyson, like yourself, like anybody, you feel the weight from them, and I feel a tremendous responsibility to get their story right and to put it in the correct context. The other thing I wasn't expecting though--and again, it's purely sort of the naivety of the journalistic separation, you know, the sense that you've got some sort of distance, was how ugly the world was going to get. At some point I felt like I was still going to rely heavily on, you know, data and surveys and diversity reports and truly inspiring one-on-one conversations with people who are doing the work. I was not expecting Nazis in the streets. I was not prepared for video after video after video after video of people shot by and killed by police, you know, which I had to look at them all, and then in order to not make a mistake--because I'm not an expert, I don't have a background in it--every link I share, every interview I have I have to overprepare for, and I've gotten more used to it now, but I would spend hours reading, selecting links, curating them to share, trying to make sure I understood them, making sure I was framing them correctly, and that has been a wonderful masterclass--I mean, I feel like I have nine master's degrees now, but shame on me if I make a mistake about how what's happening in an indigenous community or with gender. I wanted to be able to model the best possible work I was asking other people to do, which also meant that I would have to, you know, own a mistake that I made publicly, which is also what I'm asking people to do. So those are the things--I mean, those are really the things. It was deeply personal in a way I didn't expect. It was more violent than I expected. I mean, I just never imagined I was going to spend my time fighting with people about whether Robert E. Lee was a good guy or not. I mean, it's just a shock. [both laugh] And then it's just the weight of getting it right in areas that are not my expertise, which quite frankly are all of them. Zach: I think that's the most interesting thing about this work. When you talk about--'cause ultimately, you know, you and I, we've had conversations on and off-mic around, like, you're talking to a lot of people who are self-described diversity, equity and inclusion experts, but, like, the reality is, like, all of this work in, like, its full earnestness is still very new, and, like, no one, I don't believe, has a right--outside of people who have lived experience, right? So you're talking about folks who have really lived this and they've built things. They've built coalitions, right? So, like, if you're talking about people with a civil rights background, sure, but I'm talking about, like, the average corporate D&I person. You know, there's very little I believe true, like, expertise. It's like, "We're all out here just trying to learn and grow and amplify and make an impact where we can." I do think that you--and this is not a pat on the back--I really do think it's important that people appreciate folks who are in your position. You're one of the few people I think who, like, will take onus on mistakes that you make, right? Like, there's some journalistic principles to that too of course, but it also I think comes with the domain of what you're covering. Like, I think there's a lot of times when folks just feel like they're so beyond apologizing. It's like, "No, you were wrong. It's okay."Ellen: Right, and that is--it's humiliating and it's hard to master in a highly-competitive environment. It feels like you're going to lose something important, some sort of status thing, but I think particularly for white audiences who don't understand--and I didn't understand until I started learning more--about the contours of what it means to be white, you know? We spend so much time thinking about what everybody else's life is like and what they need from us and what we should do, but we, meaning white people, need to think about what whiteness actually is, and that seems to trigger this hideous reaction from folks. It's like a soul death. I think that the more we become accustomed to making space for these conversations and white people--especially white people who are in leadership positions--talking with other people about the shape of, about the idea of whiteness as a concept, as a construct, and what that means and why you cling to it even if you don't know that you're clinging to it the better off we're going to be. And so modeling that--I'll give you a good example. A couple years ago we sent out a reader survey, our marketing department sent out a reader survey, to anybody who subscribes to a Fortune newsletter, and the first part of the survey was boilerplate and the rest of it was tailored to your specific newsletters. I only paid attention to the information that we were asking from my readers around who they were and what they needed and how diverse they were and all this other stuff. Where I didn't notice was that the first part of the newsletter only had male or female as an option for your gender, and within seconds of it going out my inbox was filled, filled with people who weren't angry but were deeply hurt, and it was such a validation of the relationship that we had created together, but oh, I scrapped everything I was working on, sent apologies to everybody who had written to me, and then spent the next column walking through what happened, apologizing and promising to do better, but in order to actually do that I had to get our folks who designed the survey in Bangalore on the phone and get them to add other options, and then make sure with my audience that I had added the right options. And it was a beautiful experience. I'm still humiliated by it. I didn't even notice. But as a result, I brought that to our Fortune events team, and now all introductory language in all of the scripts for all Fortune conferences uses gender-neutral terms.Zach: Well, it's incredible, right? And, like, I think what people in positions of power--and power is relative, right, and we're gonna talk about this in a little bit, but, like, privilege is relative. You know, I'm a black, straight-presenting straight man, Christian man, who is over six feet. So that comes with certain challenges and certain privileges, but you can demonstrate humility to communicate "Oh, you know, I caught this. I realize I was wrong, and this is what we're gonna do about it." Like, that's huge, and I think also to your point, like, them not being mad but being hurt, like, that's an important part, piece of nuance to grasp, like, to decenter yourself. Like, we've had other conversations on the pod around, like, decentering whiteness from conversations with marginalized communities, and it's like, if you just decenter yourself for a moment, stop thinking that--you know, stop centering your own hurt or your own pride or ego and consider that people are reaching out to you. And they sound angry, or they're yelling or they're using direct or curt language, it's because they feel ignored or left behind or they don't feel seen, and, like, that's important, right? Like, we're all human beings. We all, by the very nature of our own existence, deserve the right to be seen, and I think, like, that--if we can change our perspective a little bit, especially from a leadership perspective, and understand where that pain is coming from and, like, that hurt, I think that can time shift like, just the overall responses, you know what I mean?Ellen: You're absolutely right about that, and it is a leadership skill, and it's an inclusive leadership skill, and it's one of a core set of listening and decentering skills that are very hard to learn and very hard to each, because they do take time to master and to be supported in a work environment, especially a work environment that's under siege, that wants to be innovative or is having some sort of problem, and now we all have the same problem. Now we all have coronavirus. [laughs] So, you know, all of the things that we know to do to be inclusive tend to go by the wayside when we're in an emergency situation and people tend to fall on their worst habits. They hire mini-mes. They assemble teams of people like them. They want to stay comfortable in times of real volatility. So I think we're entering into a pretty interesting test, whether some of our commitments to taking risks--and I've got air quotes around risks--with people who are not like ourselves will stick with that during times where teens are gonna be coming together rapidly and people are gonna be making very difficult decisions.Zach: Agreed. You know, and let's continue talking forward. Let's talk about you actually in this work, 'cause you talked about this shape--and again, like, we don't... I love--sidenote, I love this platform because of the kind of conversations we have. You know, shout-out to you. You're one of the few people on that platform so far that we've really, like, tackled the concept of whiteness. Like, the way you talked about the contour and shape of whiteness, like, how it practically shows up. I want to talk about what it looks like for you being who you are, a black woman in this space, talking to majority-white executive leaders around these issues? And, like, what does it look like to maintain a balance--and I don't even know if balance is the right word, but it's like you have to, I would imagine, carry enough of a relationship so that you can actually get them to open up and have conversations while at the same time--I could be wrong--it seems as if you go, like, too hard, then you end up damaging your potential network and brand, like, to where you won't be able to have anymore conversations with this space, but you're also trying to, like, speak on behalf of, or amplify, marginalized voices or speak truth to power. Like, I'm curious as to, like, that dynamic and, like, how does it work for you as a journalist?Ellen: That is such a great question. Most people don't ask me that, and it really is something I've thought a lot about over the years. The vast majority of the work that I have done as a journalist--which was a second career for me--that involved powerful people had nothing to do with race, although I always asked questions about, you know, race and equity as a natural part of the way I talked. And that was mostly at FastCompany where I wrote a lot of profiles, and writing profiles of people is a different way of telling a story about a company. It means I don't have to be a tech expert or I don't have to be a hardware expert or I don't have to be a medical devices expert to talk to people who are running these kinds of companies, 'cause the higher you go up on the food chain the more of what you do all day is the people part, is making sure that you're removing barriers for growth, and that includes touching product and touching money, but mostly what you do is you think about people, and not just your customers but the people that work for you. And those are universal conversations, and those were ones that I learned to get good at. And I also--this is odd, because I spent years and years and years as an art dealer and working in museums and galleries. I spent a lot of time talking to people I didn't know--typically people who had more money than I did--about something they absolutely did not need to buy, which is, you know, pigment on some parchment or fabric, and then just talk about the world, the world of ideas, and I got very comfortable talking to people with status because of that decades-long experience, and once you start talking to people, then other things can flow from it. So I walked into the race beat having developed a sense of comfort and belonging talking to people who were quote-unquote powerful, and to your point--and I'm going to say this delicately--because I've always been sort of a middle-of-the-pack person in the news room, in journalism, I'm not part of any kind of fast track, I don't look like the next editor-in-chief of anything, you know, based on results of the last couple of decades. I felt a sort of freedom that people who are largely invisible often feel, and I was lucky. I wasn't head of a household. I didn't have children for most of my journalism career. I'm a stepmother now, so I don't bare the sole responsibility for their well-being. I support older relatives, but for the most part I live a pretty safe and self-contained life, so I felt like I could take some big swings and big risks, and I--I just am nobody's next choice for executive anything, right? Like so many of us are. I'm the person--and I say this with real love and real respect, but I am the person who found a niche and was expected--and I expected it of myself--to stay there. It is a very freeing thing. As much as I would love someone to throw me the kids to a major publication and have all of my leadership delusions of grandeur play out for me, for the most part I got where I am by turning in story after story after story after story asking very powerful people some questions that I was legitimately curious about, about how they think, how they lead, how they make mistakes, how they course correct, you know? And these are difficult conversations to have. It was not fun for me ask Mark Parker, the CEO of Nike, what the heck was going on with Tiger Woods, right? These kinds of things. It's like, "What's at stake?" And we talk about all of them with a sense of purpose of telling a story and not a sense of "I need to hold you accountable." On the other hand, I haven't really interviewed any actual evil-doers. I've never chased down Harvey Weinstein. I've never chased down a person who is an obvious problem that way, and I think I look forward to being able to do that one day, but I do think in the work that I'm doing now, when I started diversity and inclusion as a serious practice and as a serious emphasis, it was relatively new. Four years into it, we haven't gotten very far, and now I think I'm going to find myself having more serious conversations with people who have said all the right things and haven't gotten very far with their results, and those are going to be candid conversations. They're going to be challenging conversations, and I assume noble intent for all of them, but I do think that corporate America, when it comes to inclusion, is going to have to face some sort of reckoning, and there's some obvious problems in the tech world. There are some obvious problems people aren't even trying, but there are some real bright spots, particularly in certain sectors--like consultancies for example--who really are trying. They may not be getting where they want to go, but there's a real openness there. So I expect the conversations I will be having to be getting more emotional because we now have data, and the data shows that we're not moving far enough fast enough.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And to your point, I do think, relative to other spaces, there are at least consultancies in that space--like, they're out there at least talking the talk, and one could pessimistically surmise that that's because of who their clients are or how they're trying to market, but still, like, they're doing more. That space--and, you know, we could go firm to firm, but that space is doing more than, like, you know, certainly than Google is doing today, right? Or Uber or others. So I 100% hear you on that. I do agree. One I think it's incredible that you acknowledged the fact that, like, having made the progress and had the momentum that you're looking for, I do agree--and it resonates with me--about the fact that the work itself is going to need to get more, you know, lovingly confrontational. You know, not your work explicitly. I mean just, like, diversity, equity and inclusion work is going--because I do think as we have Gen Z, as they integrate more into the workforce, you know--people talked about millennials have a lower bar, level of tolerance, for some of the talking [?], and, you know, they'll leave or they'll transfer jobs or they'll quit or they'll pursue their passion, all that kind of stuff. I really think we're gonna see a much different and higher degree of that with this next generation of workers, right? And I think that, like, they're just a savvier group of people. They're more, like, just informed, because they grew up--they didn't grow up on the Internet when they were, like, in high school. Like, they had tablets when they were toddlers, right? So the idea of this next group wanting a different type and level of accountability, and the fact of the matter is that Gen Z, like, it's gonna be the most, like, diverse group of people that's ever entered the workforce, you know what I mean? Like, more black and brown, more gender-fluid, trans, non-binary, more representation across the spectrum. Like, there's gonna just be way more, like, just a different cohort of worker in this next generation, yeah.Ellen: That's right, and hearts and minds are just not gonna get you there. We cannot make sure that everyone feels super comfortable and understands everything and just feels good about things, you know? I think the first step is going to be what are the actual rules and systems that you can put into place that will mitigate bias and make sure that people are behaving well in the workplace? There are a couple of things that often come to mind, but Intel has the warm line. Are you familiar with that? Zach: No, break it down for us.Ellen: I really--and Barbara [?] is their chief global diversity officer. She's really smart. She's really on it. They have a very unusual way of measuring in diversity in that they're on track, it's where the percentage of representation in the marketplace--which I appreciate--and they're managing to it beautifully, but if there is a [?] person at any level, but typically individual contributor, is having a problem with their manager, they have something called the warm line. It's warmer than the hot line, and they can find somebody who is trained to understand to help them understand what's happening. So it's like putting in a ticket, like, a tech ticket, and determining what needs to happen next, and what often needs to happen next is that their manager needs an intervention. Some support, some training, some information, and that is looked at as a developmental experience, not a punishment, and some of their--I don't have their data in front of me, but their data around the warm line usage has been outstanding. People have been using it. People have been flagging issues. They've been using it to not only help individual managers but to beef up training, making sure that this is something for everybody and that managers who get a call from the warm line people aren't feeling shamed by it so that they disappear forever. And I was really--that is an example of a systemic approach to people's behavior and making sure they understand what's expected of them if they're having trouble just formulating a response, that they have that new information, they have that language at their fingertips, but making it very clear across the line about people are feeling at work is important to the organization. You link that to performance metrics, to your performance reviews, if you link that to your compensation, are you promoting people? Not just bringing people onto your team. Are you moving them along? Those are the kinds of things that really make a systemic difference, and the hearts and minds will follow. I hope that the hearts and minds will come along as we become more comfortable working with people who are different from ourselves, because that's the gift of proximity, you know? That's the whole purpose of proximity, as Brian Stevenson so beautifully talks about. But these are the kinds of bright spots that I collect. Like, little pearls of hope that I collect that make me feel hopeful that people are very serious about solving some of these issues.Zach: No, 100%, and I think to your point, like, what I'm excited about, what I have not seen, right--and I'll also say, Ellen, like, Living Corporate has allowed me space to interview a wide array of people, right, as you know, but what I haven't explicitly experienced and what I haven't really heard anyone articulate is, like, we're in this phase now where it's, like, all about, like, awareness and unconscious bias, right? So, like, we're doing unconscious bias training, we're kind of still talking about vocabulary. You know, that's kind of, like, really been the space we've been in for some years now, and what I'm really interested in seeing in this next phase of leadership development and work and just in this space overall is let'sg et away from, like--and not get away from it wholly, but what I mean is let's continue the conversation forward. Yes, we've talked about the historicity of racism. We've talked about structural inequity, but sometimes it turns, like, theoretical or, like, abstract, like it's out there, right? Like, I'm really excited about what does it look like for you to--so yes, we have structural inequity and we have--like, a variety of ways, right? People are economically disadvantaged. There's food deserts. There's all types of things. Let's also talk about the structural inequities in this workplace, right? Like, let's talk about our behaviors in this space and how it reinforces patriarchy, white supremacy, how we have outmoded ideas of hierarchy and power and structure and how [those] things not only curtail innovation, but they also exacerbate mental wellness problems and challenges, right? Like, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for us to evolve and put some of the white fragility down and have some honest dialogue around that, you know what I mean?Ellen: I do. I'm hoping that I'll be able to find ways to either lead these kinds of conversations or participate in these kinds of conversations that will send a ripple through a culture. And you are absolutely right. For it to work, for it to work well or really at all, it has to ripple through the culture of what is perceived to be power now, and that's hard, and that's terrifying, you know? Power does not give itself up easily. As a culture, in the United States at least the majority culture--I know you guys talk about the majority culture, which is different in other places--we have a very specific idea of who we think is powerful, and we're still going through the exercises of "Google a Leader" and, you know, pictures of white people show up, or ask a child "What does a doctor look like?" and they draw a white guy in a white smock. It's just--the image is so ingrained. I think this is where the entertainment media has a real role to play, just by normalizing certain kinds of people who aren't typically in charge. The idea of non-traditional casting is already an insulting point of view, but it explains the problem. The president has typically looked a certain way in the history of media. Women have always been presented as a certain way, as sort of the sidekick or the supporter or the sexual object and powerful for ways because they were magic or wiley or just nonsense things that influence all kinds of ideas about how we as an entertainment culture think of people who are powerful. Black people with certain kinds of hair would automatically make things like the Crown Act less of a big deal.Zach: The fact that we even have to have a Crown Act is wild.Ellen: It is wild. All of this stuff is wild, and little by little as people start to notice it and think about it in context, once you get over the initial shock of "God, how did I not know this before? I'm embarrassed," or "I'm embarrassed that I noticed in myself that I was uncomfortable with the dentist with braids," you know? Suddenly just to make the cultural aspects of that less wrenching for individual people, but it does have to be intentional. I think I have looked at too many videos of young people with tiki torches or read too many ridiculous sort of comments on TikTok videos or just in general on social media to believe that young people automatically have the answer. I assure you they do not.Zach: Yes, it's a lazy analysis, truly.Ellen: It is terrible, and even if they did it wouldn't make a difference if they don't come out to vote, you know? The young people's revolution is not coming. It has petered out. And I think as young people in particular walk into their lives and feel increasing pressures of, you know, wanting to have a life partner, wanting to have a livable home, wanting to have a livable wage, all of the pressures and the weird preconceived notions about what we think is power and what we think is good behavior in society is gonna come bubbling back and turn into their worldview. It just feels inevitable at this point. Zach: I think that really helps us transition into the work that you're doing now and the topic of your conversations on raceAhead and even just the focus of, like--the things I see that you tweet about and you talk about, right? You've been covering politics this year. Why is that?Ellen: You know, I--in the last couple of years, particularly as the Trump presidency was starting, I made a decision that I was going to mention things that he said that were not true or address the policies and how they affected my audience in a very direct way, and that was something that I think many, many, many people in many industries had to work very hard to think about the fine line that they wanted to walk on there. They don't want to alienate someone who feels strongly identified with Republican values and principles and also not make the president angry if you have to interface with him for any reason like most people in business do, but I have a very specific audience. I have an audience of people who are considered--my audience cares about people who are black and brown and Hispanic and immigrant and AAPI and LGBTQI+, you know, all of those things. People who are underrepresented in communities, in schools, in power, in leadership, in business and in financing, you know? Like, all of the things that we know. If we care about this audience we have to examine, in direct ways, the speech and the policies that affect this audience. That is the talent pipeline. That is my audience, and if you want to have a diverse pipeline you have to care about the fact that black women are unlikely to survive motherhood. You have to care about the fact that certain neighborhoods are safe in very, very specific and manageable ways and we don't manage them. So I cover all of that, and this particular administration far more than previous ones is working really hard to not only undo any of the elements of the previous administration, the Obama administration, that led to greater inclusion in the government and across society, but were directly aggressively making people less safe, from the immigration ban, from transgender issues both in the military and throughout society. It was just, like, one thing after another, so I just decided that I had to talk about it, I had to flag it. Making people afraid to take the census is an incredibly dangerous thing, you know? The under-counting of vulnerable communities, of people who are worried that their citizenship is going to be questioned, is dangerous. It's going to have an impact on community health for years to come. The kids in cages at the border. Like, all of this. It was just an overwhelming amount of things that hit the political and public policy sphere, so I decided I was gonna cover it all, not necessarily advocating for one candidate over another, but just--these are the issues, and you should flag them, and you should understand the genesis of them and come up with an idea for yourself. And I will say though, for 2020, just for a brief moment of time, having such a diverse slate of candidate was a beautiful and affirming thing, and it was an interesting way to get to know a variety of different people and their communities and where they came from but also try to understand where they fit into a traditional political machine. I don't think I have any answers around that, but it has been interesting to watch it and it has been interesting to see where voters are moving to feel safe and hopeful. I'm speaking really carefully right now. [both laugh] I don't want to reveal too much of my own personal preferences, but I do think as sad as it has been for people to lose their candidate of choice, it was tremendously exciting to see such diversity on stage. Andrew Yang was a surprise, right?Zach: Yes, and I think it's like--it really helps me as someone--you know, we all live in respective bubbles, like, no matter how "woke" or aware we think we are, like, we all have areas we just don't understand. I think that was a wake-up call for me. Like, "Dang, y'all really--okay, we voting for Andrew Yang? Okay." I think--I'm really curious, as we come to a close here... when Bloomberg was in the race, maybe you were holding it back but you didn't seem to hide your anger and frustration, not only on your personal social media accounts but also on raceAhead, and I'm curious to know what role do you believe that anger can play in speaking truth to power and then driving systemic change?Ellen: That is such a great question. I was livid, and I am still surprised at how angry I got with that thing he said. He lied about what redlining is to protect his client. I mean, his entire wealth is based on his relationship with the financial services community. I mean, just billions and billions of dollars is running around and then he lies about what redlining is, and I just--I lost my mind, and I honestly don't know what it was that triggered such a strong reaction. It could be a variety of things including, you know, blood sugar and not enough sleep or whatever, but I was well and truly angry, and I tried so hard not to sound angry in that column, and I'm a little bit afraid to even go back and reread it because I was shaking mad for days. I just--I couldn't, and I really struggled to figure out what it was that had triggered me so badly. And the problem is that in order to write that column I went and looked up some of the tracks on redlining and read what people wrote about how they were managing these communities and really just thought about, let it marinate, in the kinds of things that people were saying, specifically about immigrants and black people and jews. Just the hatred and the way they described how they lived and the way they went out of their way to make sure that these communities were isolated and continue to be isolated for generations, and then to just breezily say... look at how mad I am now. Look, you just made me so mad right now. [both laugh] And just to breezily say, "Oh, yes, because the banks changed their regulations poor people got mortgages they couldn't manage and they ruined the economy for everybody," and not one person associated with the '28 financial crash was held, like, accountable. Really, really accountable. They paid fines, there was a rearrangement of things, and I know that there were plenty--I've interviewed plenty of bank executives who felt the weight of that--all of them women by the way--who felt the weight of it, who felt that it was an important wake-up call to make real changes. I'm glad nothing similar has happened again, but I just--I'm speechless I'm so angry just even remembering that, and so what I guess I would say to answer your bigger question is that the righteous rage of people who have a point to make, and it's about systemic unfairness and it's women who get put down for their anger and they're called all kinds of names, it's black people who are isolated as sort of the angry black man, the angry black woman, you know? The things that we do to put down people who have a real point to make is such a sign that we're on the right track, you know? That powerful people respond with lies. And Bloomberg is a smart man. He willfully misrepresented the definition of redlining, and there's nothing anybody could tell me that would make me believe any differently, and he did it for a reason, and he did it to protect powerful people such as himself, and he did it because we are not, as a society, prepared to do our own work, to read books, to think about how things actually work and to doubt powerful people, because we need them and we depend on them for our survival. You know, that's how they get away with it. And so it takes the angry voice, the clear voice of "That is not true," we need them, and we need them whether we're typing, we need them whether we're showing up and voting. You don't have to be screaming it but, you know, hang onto it. Hang onto it. You know, there's just--the world really depends on someone who is too agitated by a terrible injustice that continues to play out in front of them to sit by the wayside. And, you know, call me an angry black woman, call me--you know, call anybody anything, as soon as you start hearing that label you know that you're onto something, and that leads to the ultimate expression of allyship is believe other people. You know, that's it. You don't get to call yourself an ally. I get to call you an ally, and I will call you an ally when you believe, when I see you believing and taking an action that puts you at risk, and that's what we need to see. Don't ask people to prove it. Don't ask people to present you more evidence. I'm not coming at you with a PowerPoint deck. None of those things. When people tell you there's a problem you need to listen to them, and that's it. That's the one-two dance of anger that's... that is... I am furious thinking about that damn redlining thing. I am, like, legitimately furious. I was furious for days, and I still--I cannot tell you--in your spare time you should get a therapist license, because that would be hilarious to actually process this with you. I cannot quite put my finger on what made me so angry, but I could not believe it. It was everything. You know, this guy breezes in, starts throwing money around, he wants to be president. Ugh. He could have registered--how many fines of formally incarcerated people in Florida could he have paid to restore their voting rights? Zach: He could've fixed the entire Flint water crisis with millions left over.Ellen: Millions left over for a party. It's just--I don't... I couldn't believe it, and then to lie like that. It's--ugh.Zach: I apologize for taking you there. I didn't--Ellen: It's good audio, man. It is good audio.Zach: But it's important because I do think we're missing that too. I think we're missing the reality of the rage that comes with lived experience when we talk about equity, right? I think it's Eurocentric in origin. It's, like, this overdependence on--it's like we almost make data divine, right? Like, look, data are just points of information compiled by human beings that have conscious and unconscious biases. This quantitative data is but one point. There are other things that need to be considered, and that has to I believe include lived experience. You know what, I really think, Ellen, we need to just--we need to end it right here. Y'all, shout-out to Ellen McGirt, senior editor of race and leadership for Fortune Magazine. We're gonna have all of her information in the show notes. Make sure y'all subscribe to all of her different newsletters including raceAhead. It's a wonderful read. I check it out every single day. We definitely consider Ellen a friend of the pod, of Living Corporate as a whole organization. Y'all, we here. You know, every Tuesday we're dropping these real conversations. Make sure you check us out. You know what it is. Just Google us, man. I ain't about to list all our stuff. Just Google us. Living Corporate. Until next time, y'all, peace.

Zach sits down with former StubHub and Facebook alum Bärí A. Williams to chat about intersectional identities. Bärí also talks about her upcoming book "Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege, and Bias" dropping March 31st. She shares what inspired her to write it and talks a bit about the challenge she faced in efficiently categorizing so many intersectional identities when it came to the 25 people she interviewed for the book.Pre-order Bärí's book on Amazon.Connect with Bärí on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. Check out her personal website by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, you know what we do, right? It's a Tuesday. Hopefully you're bunkered in somewhere, not panicked--what's the word? Oh, using an abundance of caution and, you know, keeping away from folks that don't wash they hands. You already--okay, anyway, we're not gonna talk about that. The point is you're taking care of yourself. Maybe you're listening to some smooth jazz and you realize, "Oh, snap, I need to listen to the Living Corporate podcast," and here we are, so what's up? You know that we are centereing black and brown voices at work, and we do that by having authentic conversations with folks across a wide array of industries, okay? I'm talking about energy to transportation to telecommunications. I'm talking about lawyers and doctors and professors and, shoot, hourly employees, activists, influencers. I mean, anybody really, as long as they're willing and ready to really talk about the folks that are most impacted, most marginalized, in this world that we live in, and today is no different. We have Bärí Williams on the show. Bärí Williams, you know, she's a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know, for me to try to, you know, wrap that up in a quick little intro would be inappropriate, so we're gonna get to know Bärí in this conversation and talk a little bit about what she has going on, and we hope you enjoy it. And with that being said, Bärí, what's up? Bärí: How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, I'm doing really good. I know we were talking off-mic about, you know, staying rona free. Bärí: Man... that rona.Zach: That rona. [both laugh] It's not playing doe. They said Chuck got the rona?Bärí: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Chuck got that rona... When Tom Hanks--Bärí: Tom Hanks got the rona.Zach: When Tom Hanks--when Tom Ladarius Hanks got the rona I said, "Okay, we need to slow down."Bärí: Fire yourself. [both laugh] Tom Ladarius. But also yes, because he's from Oakland.Zach: He's from Oakland. And this is the thing, when he called [?] I said, "Oh, okay."Bärí: Oh, no. So here's the thing. The funny part about that is Tom Hanks was in my uncle's graduating class, in the same high school and all that. So that's a real thing. Like, Tom Hanks knew about [?].Zach: Man. Well, see, I knew--so, you know, the apple don't fall far from the tree.Bärí: That doesn't explain Chet Hanks though.Zach: We not gonna talk about Chet? [laughs]Bärí: I don't have anything for Chet.Zach: Man. Boy, that blackness went away when he realized his parents was sick doe.Bärí: Right. That patois was gone.Zach: That patois was--I didn't hear--no patois ting--[laughs]Bärí: "Mom and Dad are sick, guys. Thanks for your prayers."Zach: Snap. He was tatted up doe. But yeah, [laughs]--Bärí: He tried.Zach: He did, he did. But yeah, okay, okay, okay. Look, there's a variety of things we could talk about, right? Like, a lot of stuff is going on. This is not typically a current events podcast. I do want to talk a little bit about the book that you have.Bärí: Yeah, yeah. Out March 31st. Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Get Your Conversations Poppin'. I interviewed 25 different people, and what was super interesting about it was it was 25 people that I picked, and I got probably five or six interviews deep and I told the editor, "Hey, I know we want to segment these into five different categories, but all of these people are intersectional. So you can figure out where you want to put 'em. I'm not gonna make that determination." Because who am I to say that somebody being LGBTQ and Christian outweighs, you know, maybe how they're genderfluid or express themselves? I'm not gonna--Zach: Yeah, you're not gonna rank that.Bärí: Yeah, or how when I talk to two black women in the spirits industry I'm not gonna rank whether they feel that they're black first or a woman first. "So you put them where you want them, but here they are."Zach: You're absolutely right. I mean, I think when you force--I think about, like, Feminista Jones. Like, she talks about this from time to time. It's, like, this idea that you make black women choose between their femininity, their womanhood or their blackness, and, like, that's violence, right? Like, you need to let people be all of who they are.Bärí: I totally agree. I would say what's hard for me with that though is that I can only speak for my experience, but I have always been black first, and the reason being is that all of the experiences in my life would not be different if I were still black and a man, and that's, like, wow.Zach: Let's talk about that. Break down that down a little bit for me.Bärí: Child, we can talk about it. My mama literally just texted me and said "I feel asleep reading your book. This is really good. I didn't know people were out here living like this." [both laugh] But yeah, I feel like--and I've been told this before, and it probably isn't a secret to you. I can have a bit of a dominant personality. [laughs] And that is--but I feel like that is not abnormal for black women. Period. Zach: It's not. My mom is like that.Bärí: Exactly, and my mom was like that, and my son's mom is like that. Which means me. [both laugh] So... I mean, if you're used to it you know how to deal with it, but the harder part, at least for me, is working within that framework in a corporate environment. What does that mean, to be a strong black woman in a white, predominantly male, sort of passive aggressive environment? And the answer is I still don't know, 'cause they say they want one thing, and then when they get it they're like, "Ooh... this is a little-- This is more than I thought."Zach: Well, I think a lot of folks do say that they want certain things, but it's like--you know, when you finally experience this, particularly when it comes to--you know, people say they want diversity, they want inclusion, and it's like, "Yeah, but until you're--"Bärí: Until it makes you uncomfortable.Zach: "You're in a room and you're doing a presentation and then three people who don't look like you raise their hand asking you a bunch of questions that you weren't prepared for. Then all of a sudden you ain't really like that," right?Bärí: Yeah, that's exactly it. And, like, I touch on that a lot in the book. So, in the book, it's segmented into five different categories. So it's Race, Gender, Age and Ability, Religion and Culture, and LGBTQ. And when I say that there were only--I interviewed 25 people. I actually interviewed more than 25 and let the editor decide what she thought--the editor was also a black woman, which was, like, fantastic. So, like, she got me, and that's very rare, particularly in publishing. And she read it and she was like, "Yeah, these are really, really good, and this is hard to figure out where to put folks," because you have people who are, you know, dealing with issues around culture and race, and then you have issues dealing with, you know, sexuality and race, and then you have people dealing with gender and religion, and so yeah, where do you put them? So out of the 25 people that we ended up selecting, in the end, only two sit cleanly in one bucket, and what was interesting about that is they were both Asian men. Zach: Okay, yeah. Bärí: Everyone else, you know, fit into multiple categories, and that's one thing we talk about is, like, how do you navigate being in multiple categories and fitting into a predominantly straight white male able-bodied world?Zach: And, you know, I think also, like, it pushes up against this narrative of, or just this binary mindset that we have about everything, right? You're either this or you're that or it's this or it's that, and it's like, that's just not the way the world works, and, like, people are really complex, but I think, like, part of, like, this decentering of whiteness, particularly white male straight able-bodiedness, is forcing people to realize that not only--like, these concepts are not new. It's just that certain things are happening now where you can't ignore those non-white male groups anymore.Bärí: Yeah, and I think people are very, very uncomfortable with that, very, and so part of it is in the book there are takeaways from each chapter. There are key--it starts with definitions in terms of, like, what are some things you're gonna see in here that people have said in their interviews that's gonna be prevalent and super relevant? Like white saviors, okay? And I didn't feel afraid to go there. Like, I know some people are gonna be like, "Ooh, white savior? So you're insulting--" No, I'm not, but you also think you're wearing a cape and you can save us all, and that's now what we're asking you to do, and also, like, you need to know that you're doing this. It's white saviors, it's understanding the difference between, you know, being cis and--like, people just--just terms and things that people may not be familiar with and to get them comfortable with the idea of that terminology and then how to use it.Zach: I think that's really important too, right? So, you know, we talk about white fragility. There are different types of fragility too. Black men can exhibit a certain level of fragility. I think, like, people who are in any position of relative privilege--relative privilege, now. Relative privilege. Have a potential to exhibit fragility, and I think folks don't necessarily like being educated when they're wrong. So, like, having something, a resource... and, like, Google is free, y'all, so don't... but anyway.Bärí: Child, I tell people that all the time.Zach: [laughs] Even if, like, getting corrected in public or by another human makes you uncomfortable, I mean, you could at least--I mean, you could engage with your own fragility in prviate. But anyway, the point is, having a book--Bärí: I will tell you, my husband is a product manager for Google, and he works on the Android wearables team, so he doesn't even actually work for the search engine, but when I ask him a question and he thinks it's dumb, he'll just send me the link--I'm trying to remember the acronym, but basically the acronym stands for "Let me Google that for you." Zach: Yeah, somebody sent that to me one time and--like, but this is the thing about that... and that's cute, and that's your husband and stuff, but let me tell you something. I remember one time I was at work and I asked somebody a legitimate question--Bärí: If somebody did that to me at work though I would want to fight.Zach: I said, "Wait a second. Let me tell you what it's not gonna be. You gonna answer my question, okay?" Don't play. Don't play with me. [laughs] Bärí: Like, there is a whole song out here in the Bay that was made that's called "What You Ain't Gon' Do," so... [Zach laughs]Zach: That's 'cause if I didn't have to talk to you I wouldn't, so don't--Bärí: Go YouTube that, and you might want to make that the outro music, 'cause--[laughs] 'Cause yeah, it's fine for Jamie to do that to me, but if somebody else did that to me I would probably roll up on your desk. Zach: [laughs] "So explain this. Why did you send this?"Bärí: Right? "So let's talk, Bob. Let me tell you what you ain't gon' do."Zach: And what ain't gon' be. Okay, so no, that's--let me ask you this. So, like, what was the inspiration to write the book?Bärí: Many things. I think--and this is gonna be long-winded and, but I remember being five years old--and my mom is a retired teacher from the Oakland [Unified?] School District, and she and a couple of colleagues sat around our dining room table in our apartment and they created what ended up being the oratorical festival, which to our surprise was made into a documentary on HBO last month. And she didn't know and I didn't know, and she was like, "Oh, look at this!" And I was like, "Yeah! Also, why are you not in it?" But I let that go. I let that go. I'ma let that go and let God. [both laugh] And she actually--what's funny about it is she was like, "I don't care." Like, if somebody's talking about this and it still exists, like, that's enough. Like, that was her goal. And so I remember sitting there looking at that, and I remember participating in the first year, and I won in the first grade for, like, my category, and I was like, "Did you rig this?" And she was like, "No," but what it did was it gave me a voice, and she cultivated that throughout my entire life when I wasn't, you know, doing debate time in high school and junior UN League. Like, all of that. So I always felt like I had something to say and, you know, everything doesn't deserve a response. I mean, I'm still learning that at 40. [laughs] But she taught me, like, when something does deserve a response, make sure you have a very calculated thing to say about it, and so I started to do that, and then I decided to write, and it was writing articles and op-eds in New York Times and Fast Company and Fortune and Forbes, and it made me think, "There's a [?] there, and there are things that people are not discussing in these tech companies that I see because I'm in them, and we can't fix it if more people don't know it's a problem." So that's what led to it, but it was more than that. It was like, there are other people going through different struggles and different departments in other companies, in other industries, and what does that look like? And that's why I ended up talking to, you know, two black women in the spirits industry. The spirits industry is dominated by older white men. And these are two, you know, 30-something-year-old black women with their own spirits, and they're Christian, and so that was one of the things where I told the editor, "I don't know where you want to put them. Do you want to put them in race or gender or religion?" But yeah, they've had people ask them in their church, like, "What are you doing? This is wrong" They've had people talk to them in the spirits industry, like, "Hey, girl, do you know what you're doing?" You know, they get it on all levels, and then I was talking to [Rabya?]. She's fantastic. She's the woman who did the defense for [?] in... what is the name of the podcast? I'm blanking now. That's terrible. Serial, and she talked about being, you know, a woman, being Muslim, wearing a hijab, and people--she knows she's a good attorney, but people would want her to write the briefs and do the background work but not show up in court. Zach: It's interesting, 'cause that's the kind of stuff--there's a pattern of that, right? Of exploiting black labor or using black folks' thought capital, wringing them dry for it, only for you to then take center strage and publicity and really interface, right? like, you see it--I'm sure that you've--'cause you've [?] in tech. Like, you've been with StubHub and Facebook. Like, you've been all over the place, right? Like, you've seen where, like, a lot of times black folks will come from, like, these HBCUs or, like, with these engineering degrees and then, like, work in the back in security. Security, y'all, is not--like, not tech security. Securing the building. Anyway. [?, both laugh]Bärí: I will tell you the funniest thing to me when I got to Facebook was it was 2014--Facebook started in 2004, so it was 10 years afterward. I was the first black woman in legal. There weren't black people in legal, so I was the first black person and the first black woman. There were no AKAs at all in the company, so I was the first AKA in the company. They had no Links in the company. I was the first Link in the company. Like, what are you doing? Like, if you want a highly qualified workforce, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated will get that done for you, The Links, Incorporated will get that done for you. And there were only, like, three Deltas in the entire company.Zach: Shout-out to my sorority sisters. What's up, y'all? You know, and my mom is also an AKA, but you're really repping. Like, you really got on this podcast and, like, inserted that plug. I respect that. I like that a lot. Bärí: You know, plug plug plug, but that's the thing that I wanted people to understand too was, like, if you want a highly qualified workforce--and yes, they may not have direct, on-point experience, but we all have analogous experience from doing this non-profit work, and that's the thing that people discount or don't see. So, like, you want to hire Brad in accounting and he, like, did an internship for two months at his dad's firm. Like, what do you value?Zach: Right? Well, when you start holding them accountable--so when you hold them accountable to the standards that they give you, right? So if you say, well, "You know, you don't really have X, Y and Z. Show me somebody else who does have X, Y and Z experience." Bärí: Yeah, show me what's comparable. Zach: Yeah, and they pull 'em up and it's like, "Yo, this person was... he was, like, a DJ, or he worked at a GNC. Like, what are you talking about?" And so then things just crumble because it's like, "This is not about this." Like, you're creating rules--Bärí: Yeah. Like, that's not really what you want, and that's fine, but, like, let's call a thing a thing.Zach: I think, again, it just fits the meta narrative of white people, like, creating new rules for marginalized people. Bärí: Well, it's something that I actually told a long bost and said, like, every time I hit the benchmark, you move the goal posts. Are you aware of that? And he was like, "What are you saying?" And I said, "What I'm saying is what I said." Zach: I just said it, first of all.Bärí: Yeah. Like, child, when I tell--and that's the thing, like, my mom should've never told me I should advocate, because I literally said, I was like, "No. I hit this benchmark, and you told me if I did this it would be that. If I did X, it would be Y, but now you're saying, "Hm, but in order to get to Y you really need to do--" And I was like, "Nah, bruh. You said this, and I have it in writing." And I did that. So now what are we doing? And he was like, "Why are you so angry?"Zach: What do you mean?Bärí: I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not angry. I'm just telling you this is what you said and now you're going back on it," and he's like, "But you're angry," and I said, "I'm not angry. I'm just holding you accountable, and maybe you're not used to that, but that's also not my job. Like, that, you should go home and talk to your mom or your wife about that."Zach: But you know what though? Like, just as a thought exercise, let's just say I am angry. Okay. Bärí: Then what?Zach: Then what? I am angry, because you said you were gonna do something and you didn't, or you said it was gonna be one way and it isn't, or I have written documentation and you're gaslighting me by acting like this isn't real. So yeah, maybe I am angry. Does that make my point less valid?Bärí: And it doesn't. Like, these are stories that people go through in the book about how people gaslight them in the same way, whether it's about them being a woman or about them being black or about them being LGBTQ. There is such a powerful story in there from a woman who's Asian who talks about, like, how her family essentialy made her feel like she had to whitewash herself to be successful, and then when she got to college it was like, "I don't know how to relate to Asian people now." And then when she got in the workplace she's like, "Now I have to relate to both, and how does that work?" I mean, that's real. Like, you know, how you're socialized is how you end up projecting yourself to the world.Zach: That's right, unknowingly or unknowingly, and that's the scary part, right? Like, you end up doing this thing, like, where you're raised. You're just growing up. Like, you're raised a certain way, and then you hit the real world and you realize like, "Dang, I have a lot of internalized depression and, like, I didn't even know that." Bärí: Mm-hmm, and that is--that honestly is one of the--it's funny, 'cause my son, he's now 9-and-a-half, but when I had to finish this book towards the middle of October, I was so tired. When I tell you, child, on the last day before I had to hit the bit I was like, "Ugh." I stopped to watch, like, a Real Housewives marathon, and he came to me. He was like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "Excuse you?" And he said, "Mommy, what are you doing?" And I said, "I'm taking a break." And he's like, "Are you done yet?" And I said, "Do you understand what break means?" And he was like, "Well, you let me take a break, but you give me a time. Like, you've been watching this for, like, three hours. Have you hit Send?" And I was like, "No, I haven't," and he's like, "Okay, so then you get one more hour and then you need to finish." But to me, what I took that as was, like, he wasn't being defiant, he was actually imposing the rules that I put on him, which I was like, "Oh, so my parenting isn't totally failing."Zach: No, he has internalized that level of accountability and he is giving you that same energy back.Bärí: Yeah, but the same energy I had to give him was, like--I listen to so many stories about, you know, marginalized communities, interviewing these folks, particularly black men and their experiences, and you don't get to mess up, and I've told him that, and so he's like, "Why are you sitting here watching a Real Housewives marathon for three hours? You haven't pressed Send. Like, girl, get it done." And I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're right." But it's that same energy. Like, you have to be twice as good to get half as far, and that story was all of these people in the book, which was crazy, because it cuts across everything. It cuts across disability. It cuts across sexuality. It's like you have to make up for who you are by doing more work.Zach: You know, I think about a conversation we just had with Ruchika Tulshyan, and we were talking about how black men are often times left ot of the corporate D&I initiatives, right? So now, sometimes people think they're being really radical when they talk about "the angry black man." It's like, okay, I get it. That is a thing, and that's real, but, like, just the larger conversation about how black men are treated, and like you said, we don't have opportunities to mess up, and the same thing could be said for black women of course, for sure. It's just this idea of labor and, like, having to do more just to--Bärí: And you're not getting farther. It's just--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. It's like, "I'm not doing more to get further or to get farther ahead. I'm doing more just to be equal. I'm doing more just to receive what I've earned," right?Bärí: I can tell you, my husband, he interviewed at a former employer of mine. My husband is 6'6" and, like, 235 pounds on a good day.Zach: Oh, he's lean lean.Bärí: Eh... I said on a good day. [laughs] But the way that he's built though is, like, very Michael Phelps. So he's broad. So he looks bigger than he is, and the feedback that they had is--and also, because of his size and because he is black, he has been socialized--and also he's light as hell. Like, I've had people ask me multiple times, "Oh, so your husband's biracial?" No, he isn't, but people just assume that he is. And so based off of his profile, he's very light-skinned, he's 6'6", he's built like a swimmer, and people--so he has been socially conditioned to basically... I don't want to say tamp down who he would be, but he's more docile. Super reserved, which is why our dynamic works, because I'll be, like, the person in your face, and he'll--Zach: Yeah, it's tough to be big when--yeah, I've learned that in a variety of different ways, but yeah. I keep that--I would say I'm probably more like you, Bärí. I'm like, "Ayo," but I'm like, 6'2", like, 280, so I'm like, a big dude. [laughs]Bärí: And you know that scares people.Zach: And I'm not that--and I'm lighter-skinned, but I'm not, like, light-skinned, right? So it's like, you know.Bärí: And that is so scary for me with our son, because our son is--he is darker than I am, and I'm brown-skinned, and he's already 5 feet and he's 9. Zach: Yeah, he's gonna be a big boy.Bärí: Yeah, he will be. And I believe he'll be taller than his dad, and even if he isn't, it's like, if you are 6'6" and you're a brown-skinned boy and you're in Oakland, I have to keep you safe. And so everything I do is about "How do we keep you safe?" And that sucks, 'cause, like, I wish you could just be free, but--Zach: And it's not... and not even to be a super downer, but I say this as someone who, shoot, maybe by the time of this podcast my daughter's gonna be here, but, like, I think about having black kids in this world and, like, there's the physical safety, but then there's a certain level of, like, psychological safety that you really can't protect them from, and, like, there's certain things they're gonna just have to--again, I'm not trying to be fatalist or, like, super down or whatever, but they just have to go. They're just going to have to experience. And it's, like, the feeling of being isolated or alone or otherized or not quite fitting in spaces. Like, that's a thing, right? That's a thing, and somebody that I really admire--like, there are a bunch of folks I really admire, but I think about, like, Bomani Jones, right? Like, he's somebody I see, like, in these spaces, and he never, like--on his platforms, like, ever talks about being one of the onlys or whatever. And some people are just built like that. He's just like, "I don't really whatever." He doesn't come across, like, really vulnerable in that way, and I don't know--and this is not about Bo specifically, but I think about, like, other black men in media or, like, in these really big profile spaces, and I wonder, like, to be successful in these hyper-white spaces, do you just have to have, like, a certain level of just, like armor, and just almost be really calloused?Bärí: I think you do. That's one of the things also that I learned from doing interviews in the book, and that's not even unique to us. Like, the folks who are dealing with LGBTQ gender issues and gender expression, they had to deal with that in terms of, like, people questioning them and, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Like, all of that stuff. And full discretion, like, I know Bo. Like, Bo and I are cool, and we've had that conversation, and part of it is like--to your point, it's not intentional. He doesn't mean to not say that. He just is like, "I am who I am, and you're gonna take it or you're not." And honestly, I've talked to him and have said, like, I want that energy for my son. I don't want him to feel like you have to have the burden of all black people ever on your back. Like, [?] does Bo, but he still reps us, and that's what I want, and that's what I want. Even, like, that I see with my husband. It's funny because I look at him--we're very, very different. He has had probably every advantage you can have in life. Like, he has gone to private school since he was born until he graduated. Like, he literally went to private pre-school, then he went to a private elementary school, private high school, he went to Harvard and then he went to Stanford, and I was like, "Bruh. You do not know, like, what it's like to live in, like, a real dorm." But he still came to--like, and he's from here too. He's from Oakland and came back and, like, tried to get in the valley and couldn't beat down the door. [Zach: Hm.] Right. And this is what everybody says that they want, right? These credentials. [Zach: Yeah, you know, he's checked every box.] And also, this is a light-skinned dude, right? So he's less-threatening. Zach: Right, and I'm sure he talks very proper. He enunciates his words well.Bärí: Child, I call him MC Carlton.Zach: So, like, literally his only knock is that he's black, and light black at that. Diet. [laughs]Bärí: Well, not even that. Also that was one of the things--so when I said my former... I had an employer who interviewed him. He got to the end of the round, and they decided that they didn't want him. They cut him. Like, they were hiring between him and one other person. They cut him because they said, "Oh, he didn't show enough passion. He wasn't willing to bang on tables." So when they gave me that--no, no, no, when they gave ME that feedback, I said, "Okay, so let's stop and envision this. Do you want a 6'6" 235-pound black man banging on tables? You're gonna be comfortable with that?" [Zach: And they said what?] They were like, "Well, what are you implying?" And I said, "I said what I said."Zach: Yeah, don't play with me. I'm not implying anything.Bärí: I said what I said. I didn't imply anything, I just said what I said. So if you saw that, you would feel safe? You would be cool? Zach: I mean, real talk. Would you? Answer the question.Bärí: They were like, "I mean, he just didn't show passion," and I was like, "That's not what I asked. What I asked was that if you saw a 6'6" bald black man banging a table to motivate engineers, you're cool with that?" And nobody could answer it definitively, and I was like, "And that's why you didn't hire him, so thank you, and I'ma go catch the shuttle." Like, I'm not gonna participate in this. This is bull. Zach: Yeah, this is ridiculous. It's super ridiculous.Bärí: 'Cause he's super reserved, and he's super reserved because he knows that he is a large black man and he can't do that. Zach: I remember I applied to--this is when I was first getting into consulting and it was between a few different firms, and one of the firms--and they were all, like, Big 4, right? So one of the firms I applied to, I went through the process and they said, "Oh, he was too passionate. He was too excited about the job. He smiled too much." So I'm just laughing at you, laughing at this situation, because it's like, okay, so you can't win for losing, right? I literally was the one smiling talking about how excited I was, and they said, "Well, he looked like he knew what he was doing, but he just seemed a little too smiley, a little too excited. He was a little too passionate for us." Bärí: But if he had been extra excited y'all would have been like, "Oh, my god. The black guy scared me because he's so big." [Zach: Exactly. [laughs]] And what I hate about this is, like, having to teach my son these rules of the road, because it's different in certain ways. He has my complex--actually he's darker than my complexion and he has his daddy's stature, and so you're gonna be extra targeted because you are a super brown boy and you're gonna be very tall, so you have to be on your P's and Q's at all times. Zach: Yeah, you're not wrong.Bärí: And he's so mad, because he does Kumon in addition to his regular schoolwork, and he's like, "Ugh, Mommy, I'm tired all the time," and I was like, "What do you think my life is? What do you think your daddy's life is? What do you think brown people's life is? Like, that's what it is, and like, I hate to tell you that, but you have to do more and do it faster and do it better, and you're gonna have to do it even faster and even better than your dad, because your dad gets some sort of benefit from having been, you know, a Harvard legacy, and he's light-skinned. Like, when you're light-skinned--light-skinnned [?] go farther, I'm sorry. It's true.Zach: We have yet to talk about colorism on the podcast, like, explicitly, but we need to talk about it because--Bärí: Let's talk about it. We can do it right now. [both laugh]Zach: I want to respect your time 'cause we went over, but nah, it's a global phenomenon, right? And I think, like, it goes beyond just, like, the African diaspora.Bärí: That's true. That's so true for our Indian comrades. That is very true for our Latinx comrades. Like, that's just the truth.Zach: I was in the HEB. HEB, for the folks who are not in Houston, is a huge grocer. So I was in HEB and I was getting some different, like, sauces and stuff, and I was in, like, the cultural food aisle and walked right on by some lightening cream. You know what I mean? So it's super common, and I think, like, even when you look at, like, these corporatized D&I groups, the Latinx folks are typically European--like, white-presenting, you know what I mean? Like, they're not, like--you don't see a lot of... again, it's common, but because it's so pervasive and--I don't want to say subtle, 'cause it's not subtle if you're paying attention, but it's just common, right? Like, the lighter-skinned people... it's hard to be dark and in power, you know? Bärí: Yeah, and that is for me just a personal thing that I want my son to embrace, and the reason being is, like, you know, everybody--my mom is light-skinned, and my dad was not, and they got divorced when I was three, so I don't even remember--like, I have no memory of living with them together, and so it was really my mom and her family, and everybody in her family is light-skinned and I'm the only brown person, and I was like, "What's going on here?" Yeah. But what's interesting here is my husband is light-skinned and I'm brown. Our daughter is lighter than my husband and our son is darker than me, so it's like... they don't match at all. [laughs] Zach: I love that y'all have, like, a whole kaleidoscope going though. Bärí: We do, and we actually have shirts. I have a whole shirt. Like, I need to send you one. It's real--it's ghetto. [laughs] It's a unicorn throwing money [?], and there are different shades of the unicorn, and I picked the different shades off the people in our family. So yeah, but I mean, like, get this money. Do this work. You can do it whatever shade you are. That's my point. But for him, I want him to understand there's gonna be different restrictions for you, because you're likely to walk out of here one day when you're sixteen and you're gonna be 6'6" and you're gonna be super brown, and you're really fine, and people need, you need, to be aware of the danger. And then opposite is like, "Your sister is light-skinned. She has very loose, curly hair, and so people are gonna treat her in a completely different manner and think she's fine even though she may not be, and--" Not that I'm saying she's not cute, she is, but I'm like, "You know, people--" Zach: Yeah, there's biases that come with being [?]. Yeah, there's a certain aesthetic that she could fit into that then makes it easier.Bärí: And she does, and I want to make sure that she doesn't buy into that and, you know, that's what we're dealing with her, and that's what I deal with in the book, like, how do you handle this? You have people in multiple categories. What are the proper terms? What are the issues that are around them? How do you deal with it? Like, even something as simple as the fact that I literally have never had braids or crochets or anything in my entire life, and I decided to get it last summer because I was tired of doing my hair and then my daughter's hair. And my daughter has a looser curl than I do, but her hair is thick. Like, I'm not spending three hours on a Sunday doing this, so I took her to the salon so that they could do it, and then I started getting crochets, but now she's like, "I want to go to the salon!" So now it's like, okay, now we have to reset in terms of privilege, right? Because everybody doesn't get to go to the salon. Like, my momma did my hair until I was 13, so holla at Grandma. [both laugh]Zach: So let's get back to this book, right? It's coming out March 31st. Eye-opening interviews. The goal is to help jumpstart conversations about identity, privilege and bias, y'all. The book is called Diversity in the Workplace. Listen, y'all, make sure you check it out. Right now, maybe because of that rona we might be having these conversations on Zoom or Skype. I don't--Bärí: Now, I think you're gonna be quarantined 'cause of that rona anyway, so you might as well read this while--Zach: You definitely should. You know what, why don't you challenge yourself?Bärí: And there's an audiobook version too if you don't even want to read it. Somebody can just read it to you. Zach: Come on, now. Like, challenge yourself to read the group, and then that way when you go back to work--Lord say the same, the rona won't be here forever, okay? So you eventually will have to go see people, right?Bärí: I mean, the rona won't. It will be replaced by something else.Zach: Oh, goodness. You're right though.Bärí: I mean... it's Trump, so...Zach: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] Bärí: Something else might kill us in the meantime, I don't know.Zach: Who knows? I don't know. They said they got all these locusts over in Africa. There's, like, hundreds of billions of them over there. I don't know.Bärí: I saw that too, and I was like, "What disease are they carrying?"Zach: Listen. Bärí: Okay, I'ma let that go. Zach: Shutter the thought. [laughs] So look, y'all, this has been Living Corporate. We do this, right? We have conversations. We're really excited and we're thankful--you know, all jokes aside, please make sure you're washing your hands, okay? We have information from the CDC in the show notes. You know, hopefully you're washing your hands as you listen to this podcast. Like, wash your hands, okay? Soap is important also. Now--Bärí: Very. Water is not--Zach: Water is not soap. I want to--hold on. Sound Man, put that little record scratch in here. [record scratch] Water is not soap, okay? So you want to use some--you know, use the hard, industrial stuff. Use that Irish Spring if you need to. I personally use [?] because I am bougie, but you can use--Bärí: I use Olay, but, you know, whatever.Zach: Use something that is frankly a little abrasive, okay? Get that first, like, half-layer off your skin. Like, wash your hands, y'all. And then, you know, just take care of yourself, you know? Fist bumps and head nods only. You know, this would actually be a good opportunity for allyship and learning.Bärí: Well, here's the thing. So even with the fist bumps... so with the social distancing blah-blah-blah, it's supposed to be six feet. If you bump into someone, no, you're not within the six feet.Zach: You know what, you're right, no fist bumps. So this would be a good time actually for those--Bärí: Head nod at people and wave.Zach: So we all know how to do a head nod, but this may be the time for my less-melanated folks, my aspiring allies, to learn how to effectively head nod. Don't throw your neck out of your body when you do it. Bärí: Oh, I didn't know that was a thing.Zach: Just nodding too hard, right? Like, the head nod is supposed to be subtle, nuanced. Right? Like, maybe it's a cultural thing. I feel like in the South, like, our head nod is different, and I definitely believe, between the various melanin levels, head nods can be various levels of aggression. That's all. That's all I mean. Maybe a little salute also, with two fingers at the head. Just "Hello, I see you over there." But just be careful. Take care of yourselves, and we'll get through this together. In the meantime, make sure y'all check out the links in the show notes as well for Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege and Bias written by Bärí A. Williams. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

Zach chats with Ruchika Tulshyan, award-winning author & CEO and founder of Candour, about equity's place in the future of work. Ruchika explains to us what it is about the diversity, equity and inclusion space that had her commit so much of her life to it, and she ties her breadth of experience back to her childhood in Singapore, where she grew up with people of all different nationalities, cultures and religions. She takes us through her career journey and graciously shares her struggles and triumphs along the way.Connect with Ruchika on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.Visit her personal website. You can find out more about Candour by clicking here.Check out Ruchika's Harvard Business Review contributor page and get reading!Read the pieces mentioned in the show, If You Don't Know How to Say Someone's Name, Just Ask and Women of Color Get Asked to Do More “Office Housework.” Here’s How They Can Say No.Learn more about the books Superior and So You Want to Talk About Race.Visit our home page!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach with Living Corporate. That's right. I'm back. It's probably Tuesday, or maybe you're listening to this later. It's, like, a Wednesday or a Thursday. I don't know, but we're recording this, and we're recording this, of course, we're having real talk in a corporate world. We center and amplify underrepresented voices in the corporate space, and by corporate space I just mean at work, okay? So this is not, like, an elitist thing, right? So, like, if you work at Wendy's, hey, this is for you too, okay? If you work at Goldman Sachs, this is for you too. And you're probably a white man listening to this, and if so, hey, man, thank you for listening to the podcast. I hope that you learn something from this. But this is for everybody is my point, and we do this, we amplify and center underrepresented experiences, by having underrepresented folks--these are, like, influencers, journalists, activists, educators, public servants, entrepreneurs, executives, recruiters, anybody, really, who is able to really come on and just have some real talk with us. And we've had some amazing guests every single week. I mean, every single week we have some fire--I mean, fire fire fire guests, and this week is no different, okay? 'Cause you know who--I don't even know if y'all know who we have, but I'm up about to tell you. We have Ruchika Tulshyan. Ruchika is a diversity & inclusion strategist, award-winning author and journalist. She is the author of "The Diversity Advantage: Fixing Gender Inequality In The Workplace," a book on strategies for organizations to advance women. Ruchika's company, Candour advises a number of organizations on diversity, equity and inclusion strategy. Ruchika is also the 2019 inaugural distinguished professional-in-residence for Seattle University's communication department. Ruchika, hold on. I've gotta let the air horns fly. How are you doing?Ruchika: I am doing very well, Zach. I'm so excited to be here. [children cheering sfx, both laugh] I love it, I love it. I really do.Zach: We gotta get into it. We gotta get into. You're an author, a journalist, an international speaker, and a CEO of your own consulting firm. Like, what is it about this space, about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, that had you commit so much of your life to it?Ruchika: You know, it wasn't planned at all, Zach. And I grew up outside the United States. I'm from Singapore originally, so I think about food all the time. In fact, right now while I'm talking I'm thinking about "What's my next meal?" But--Zach: What's your favorite food?Ruchika: So, you know, being from Singapore, we eat everything, but probably anything Asian, anything with noodles or rice. I can eat rice for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper, snack, midnight snack. [laughs] You get the drift.Zach: Yes. No, I do. So do you like pad thai?Ruchika: I'll never order it in the United States 'cause I've had it in Thailand quite a few times now.Zach: Oh, my gosh. What it is like in Thailand?Ruchika: It's so different. It's not sweet. It's just--it's got this beautiful... it's like umami, you know? Like, there's a different flavor altogether. So yeah, I haven't--you know, I tried it once or twice in the U.S. in different cities, and I was like, "Yeah, this is not going to be the thing for me."Zach: You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I remember--so I went to Japan. I was in Japan for a couple weeks last year--well, in 2018--and I remember just eating the food there. It's like--it's crazy that, like, most Americans don't have all of their toes cut off from diabetes with how much sugar we have in our food, right?Ruchika: Yes, yes, yes. And that's--I mean, I could talk about this all day, because, you know, I think about this all the time. And again, I think it's all related, right? And I think even talking about diversity and inclusion, like, really understanding people, finding a common language based on food I think is something that's really special and a very, very important way to connect with people.Zach: You know, I 100% agree. And just one last thing about the food, 'cause you talked about, like, when you have something in the States and then you--for me, 'cause I'm from here and, like, all my people, as far as I can go back, are from here, right? But when I went to Japan I had sushi in Japan. I said, "Wait a second." [laughing] Ruchika: Right? Isn't it completely different?Zach: I said, "What?" I just was--I mean, I had, like, a spiritual moment. It was just like, [blessings come in sfx, both laugh]. I said, "My gosh, my taste buds." Ruchika: Isn't it? And all their food, everything. I mean, if you've had chocolate in Japan, if you've had, like, cookies in Japan, if you've had a cake in Japan, it's like nothing you've ever tasted before, you know?Zach: Yes, and I'm just--and how conditioned I've been eating here, it's like--I'm used to, like, if I eat something, like, a big meal, I'm used to be a little--like, a little sleepy afterwards, right? So I'm like, "Wait, why can I still walk? I can still walk around and, like, think cognitively after eating this meal. [?]" Okay, so I'm sorry. Long segue aside about food--but it's important though. It's a connection to culture. I'm right there with you. Ruchika: So we were talking about diversity and inclusion, right? [both laugh] And how did I get into it? Well, you know, it's connected. You know, it is connected. So I think I was kind of built for this in some way, although it wasn't planned. So growing up in Singapore, I just grew up with people of all different nationalities, all different cultures, all different religions, and it was very much a way of my life, and I moved around quite a bit when I was younger. But what it really exposed me to was the fact that, you know, at the end of the day we're all the same, you know? In many ways we want the same things. We really, really just want to be happy. We want to be heard. We want to feel valued and respected. And so I really grew up with that concept, you know, as a part of my life, just the way it was. You know, my friends were from all over the world, my teachers were from all over the world, and I really grew up with sort of an idealistic, almost Kumbaya sort of belief in the world, and when I moved to the United States about eight years ago, that was a very big shock for me, you know? And I really saw what I still think in some ways is modern-day segregation. You know, I really saw it in full force. There's a stat that three out of four white Americans don't have a single friend of color, and I think that's really concerning, because I grew up in a very different sort of environment, and it really made me see the--it's awesome. I mean, just talking about food, you know? Being exposed to different cultures, different types of food. I feel so lucky, and I actually think people are missing out, and so for a vast majority of Americans, the most diversity they ever experience is actually in the workplace. So, you know, I'm sort of setting myself up to saying that, you know, that was the early part of my life where I really felt, you know--I just had a connection, but I never thought that I would work in this field. I didn't even know this field existed. And what changed for me is I began my career as a journalist and was really happy about it, loved it, then moved to Seattle and sort of transitioned into tech, because that's what everyone does here, and it was the most challenging experience of my life, you know? I really encountered sexism and racism that I just wasn't--you know, I didn't think that it could happen to me. You know, I really grew up with the mindset that you work hard, you work smart, you put your head down and you do your thing--and sure, you know, you raise your hand for opportunities, you're confident, et cetera, but I really didn't think that it would make a difference, you know? My gender, my race, sort of the way I scope, my accent, my name. I didn't think these things mattered, right? I know, so naive of me now that I reflect back on it. And it was a very rude, painful emotional awakening and really kind of created that empathy in me where I said to myself, "This cannot be the way that more than half the population is being treated in the workplace, right? And these are their experiences," and as a journalist I started collecting experiences. I started collecting stories and case studies and even data, right, and research, and it was very clear that something had to change. So I wrote in my book, five years ago, at a time where people said, like, the way that women can, you know, advance in the workplace is they need to lean in, right? That was sort of the narrative of the day, that it was something lacking in women, there was something lacking in people of color, and they had to change, and I'm really glad that we're thinking about this as a systems change that actually doesn't--you know, if you have been stereotyped against, if you have had--you know, if people have this preconceived narrative about who you are and what your potential is in the workplace, it doesn't matter how much you lean in, you know? I mean, like my friend Minda Harts says--you know, CEO of The Memo and has an awesome book out on it, on [?] of women of color at work, Zach. I know you know her. It doesn't matter how hard you lean in if you're a woman of color. You are just not going to be able to get ahead until those systemic biases have been addressed, and so that's what got me into this work, and it's a long-winded answer.Zach: It's long-winded. This is a podcast. [both laugh] But no, you're absolutely right. I'm right there with you, right? And it's interesting, when you talk about, like, systemic versus, like, individual actions--I'll say for me, it's been frustrating, like, just transparently, like, being a black man in majority-white spaces. And I'm in, like--I'm in professional services, right? So consulting, and a lot of times when there's issues that come up when you're dealing with folks or people want to frame you as being "angry" or "frustrated" or whatever the case is, like, whatever trope you want to kind of pull out, right, and then you share those frustrations with, like, other people who are not underrepresented, who are a member of the majority, their feedback or coaching is often, like, things that you need to do and change, but it's like, "Yeah, that's not really the problem." And not to be arrogant. We all have places where we can grow and mature, and emotional intelligence and social intelligence and personal awareness, all of those things are very important. At the same time, like, have the moral courage to actually talk about the systems at play and how there are a lot of things that really aren't our fault. Like, there are things that are being done to us or that we are--you know, it's asymptomatic of larger systemic challenges, and it's tough though. It's tough to have those conversations, especially for folks in the majority. Some of them literally just don't know how. Some of them it's just so uncomfortable they don't--you know, how much of that is real? How much of that is, like, you imagining it, right? But to me I'm just noticing more and more--like, I'm getting increasingly discouraged when you have these conversations, you know, and it's like, "Yo, can we just have a conversation about, like, why is it that this person constantly calls this person or these types of people too opinionated or loud or aggressive or angry or--" Whatever the case is, right? Like, you kind of see it over time. And it's funny that you bring that up about Minda Hart. Shout-out to Minda Hart. What's up, Minda? In fact, hold on. I'ma get some air horns for you and Minda. [both laugh] So what you're speaking to about leaning in, right, and how the concept of leaning in, it was promoted by a white woman with--and I recall there being major articles written and, like, championed about the fact that women of color can't lean in, exactly what you just said, and so I'm curious, when you talk about your focus on gender equity, what does that look like, and how are you introducing intersectionality within the concept of gender equity? Like, how does that practically show up for you in the work that you do?Ruchika: So Zach, let me tell you one of the biggest career mistakes I ever made in my life, and that was to write a book that overall lacks intersectionality. And my students will tell you this, because I make the poor things read my book for one of my classes. And so, you know, every class we have this discussion about, you know, the fact that my book lacks intersectionality as well as that it really treats gender as a binary, right? Which is fully my fault and also a big part of the larger system of publishing and editing, et cetera, where that, you know, concept of intersectionality is still lacking, right? And I don't know--even right now, I don't know if management theory has really caught up to the fact that you really need to have a very intersectional approach when you think about gender equality, right? Like, it is not just about the challenges that white women face. It is really about--if you really want to make change, it is about looking at the intersection between how women of color, both those intersections, experience the workplace, and then especially, from there, expanding that to include other marginalized identities in the workplace. So I will be the first to admit that my book lacks intersectionality, and my hope is, in all the work I've done since and will continue to do, I absolutely cannot--you know, I absolutely cannot take an intersectional approach. That being said, I really think, again, the key to making a difference when it comes to workplace gender equity is having a situation where the voice of the person who is the most marginalized in the room is centered so that the workplace works for all, right? So if the workplace was built by, say, a cis-hetero white man and that's who the workplace is built for, if you do not consider the experience of what, you know, a woman of color, a black woman for example, a trans black woman of color, what's the experience, you know? And who may have, you know, disabilities, cognitive, temporary, physical, whichever--or a combination. If you do not start there, then you're going to continue perpetuating systems which alienate, you know, women, and especially women of color across the board, you know what I mean? So you really need to start with the person who's the most vulnerable who is having really the most challenging experiences in the workplace and then expand from there and think about "What is it that they need to be successful," right? And how can that be incorporated into the fabric of what you do? And that's why part of what I love to do, I love speaking to large corporations. We just talked about someone who works at a large corporation who we both know, but really for me the--you know, I also really love working with smaller teams and startups, because when you can build intersectionality, when you can build inclusion and equity into the very fabric of your organization, right, when you're building it from, like, one to five to ten to twenty employees, that is where you can really make a change, and I have seen that happen personally.Zach: You know what? So first of all, you know what I'm saying, like, while you were talking I didn't want to cut you off, but in my mind when you said--when you, like, owned up and you said, "My book does not address intersectionality," I was like [record scratch sfx]. 'Cause I was like, "Wow, that's incredible, because everybody--" I want everybody to stop. Stop what you're doing. You're driving your car, you're doing whatever you're doing--especially you, diversity, equity and inclusion supposed subject matter experts--stop and see what Ruchika just did, okay? I asked her a question, a direct question about a very important concept if you want to consider yourself a diversity, equity and inclusion expert. You see what she didn't do? She didn't get all defensive and fragile. She outright owned something that she didn't do and her commitment to improve in the future. Some of y'all need to learn from that. I'm talking to you. Yes. If you think I'm talking to you, I'm talking to you, okay? Shout-out to you. That was dope. Ruchika: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome.Ruchika: And listen, I'm not--you know, I don't at all claim to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and I do want to double-down on this point. Like, I've said it before, and I'm gonna say it again. I think growing up both outside this country as well as sort of in some way out of, you know, sort of the Western way of living has meant that I have had to approach DEI in the United States with a tremendous amount of humility and a learning mindset, right? I mean, in the country I grew up in, gay marriage is not legalized, right? I didn't have any friends growing up who were out. The first time I actually came in contact with someone who was openly gay, for example, would have been sometime in my 20s. You know, openly, right? So what I'm trying to say is that you can have been brought up a certain way. The people you love may believe that, for example, having friends of different colors or treating people from different backgrounds equally, maybe you grew up thinking that's not the way life should be, but my point is you can grow. My point is you can learn, my point is that it takes a tremendous amount of humility and learning to get to that place, and you absolutely can get there.Zach: Amen. No, I agree, and I think we're coming into an era where people are just getting, like, less and less tolerant of, like, corporatized nonsense, right? So, like, there's going to need to be, eventually, some sort of reckoning with, like, the systems at play. In fact, we're in a unique position because it's an election year where we almost have kind of, like, a countdown. We know one way or the other there's going to be an--like, there's going to be another explosion, and there are going to be more and more people supposedly very surprised all over again, but I think--I also think that just, like, societally and generationally, like, we also have folks and younger folks who weren't able to vote who saw the nonsense last time but weren't in the same position who are in a different position this time. So I just think that the--I think that the dialogue is going to still be just as present if not more present than it was in 2016, so the imperative to really--like, to your point about humility and being willing to learn, centering the most vulnerable and continuing to seek to grow and develop yourself in this space is important, because I just don't think that some of the trends that I saw in this, like, environment over the last decade I don't think is gonna be sustainable this upcoming decade.Ruchika: It isn't. And you know, Zach, while you were talking I was thinking of this idea. You know, coming to this country as an immigrant, my experience was definitely steeped in and very much the way that I was told that I would be successful in this country was to uphold white supremacy, right? And I have to acknowledge that for us to really make a change, we need to address anti-blackness in a lot of immigrant communities, including the ones I'm part of, south Asian primarily. And I think it's very important to really drill down into that a little bit more, you know? And if we do want to see a change, even in the workplace, you know, I work with tech companies, and there's a lot of, like, "Oh, we don't have a problem with people of color. Like, there are a lot of Asians doing really well in our tech company." I've had leaders write to me--I used to write a column for a supplement of the Seattle Times, and I had people all the time from large tech companies being like, "Oh, but our CEO is a person of color." "Oh, but our," you know, whatever it is, you know, "Our top people are people of color," and I really had to stop and say, "Listen, it's not about people who are already represented in the workforce. If you really want to make a change, can you tell me how many black people are leading at this company? Can you tell me how many black [?] people [?]?"Zach: Ooooooooh, goodness gracious, Ruchika. What you talking about? [laughs]Ruchika: You know, how many indigenous women, for example, are [?] at your company? Then let's talk about equity.Zach: Well, 'cause we're not a monolith. And you're absolutely right, right? There's this idea--and there's terms that we use, and, you know, this is the thing. Living Corporate is a positive space, you know? If we make any, like, direct statement--we have real talk, but, like, we're not--you know, we're not trying to be overly mad all the time, right? [both laugh] As hard as it is, but, like, one thing that grinds my gears is, like, people using the term "people of color" when we're really talking about specific underrepresented groups. Like, let's actually name and give those groups the respect--like, because if you say black people, that's already a very complex group. So, like, let's at least say--if we're talking about black people, let's just say black people. If we're talking about south Asians, let's say south Asians. But, like, when we say people of color, it's like--you know, I don't know if you have it, but every black person who's listening to this podcast knows what I'm talking about. You have a junk drawer in your house? It has, like, nails and, like, batteries and everything in there, right? Ketchup packets. And that's really what "people of color" is, it's just a junk drawer term. We're just gonna throw--if you're not eggshell white you're a person of color, right? And it's like, how do we break out of that? And so let me ask you this then. When you ask those follow-up questions and you start asking them to be specific, you know, and you ask, like, "Well, how many of this particular group do you have?" Then what does the conversation--what does that shift look like in conversation?Ruchika: Most people are tremendously uncomfortable and don't want to engage, right? And that's also--I'm happy to get off this topic because then I can talk all day, but part of it is the terminology and the language is flawed. In the same way "people of color" is flawed, so is "Asians." [?] Indians and Indian-Americans, you know, capture some of the highest income groups in this country, but in the same category of south Asians--just if you look at the south Asian subcontinent--[Bangladeshi?] immigrants have the lowest rates of poverty, some of the lowest rates of poverty in this country. So what I'm saying is already the terminology that we use to describe, you know, race is extremely flawed. And by the way, I'd like to shout-out to a book that I'm reading that I love already. It's called Superior by Angela Saini. She's a British science journalist. I'm actually part of the team bringing her out to Seattle to speak at our university here. And I just love this book, because it really dives into how race science came about and the very flawed logic that is being used to show that there are differences biologically between the races--which, by the way, she argues very, very well, using tons and tons of data and research to show that that's absolutely not true, [that?] race is a social categorization and we absolutely must acknowledge the experience of different people socially because of, you know, these categorizations. Biologically, there really aren't that many differences. And so I think my point--you know, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here, but people don't want to engage because we are so comfortable with this idea, "Oh, no. Let's not talk about race." That's a very interesting thing that I've really noticed here in the United States. In fact, I did some of my tertiary education in the United Kingdom, and then I, as I mentioned, grew up in Singapore and moved around quite a bit. What I found is that really in the United States, people don't want to talk about race, and as a result of not talking about race, they uphold racism, you know? It's just--it's baffling to me, it really is, and I think if you can't address it--and, you know, I've now moved to Seattle, which is really--you know, another shout-out, my friend Ijeoma Oluo's book So You Want to Talk About Race. Excellent book. I highly recommend it to every single person out there. Amazing. I make my class read it every year, and they're so grateful. After my boring book they go to her book and they're so grateful. You should see the evaluation papers. They're like, "[?] boring." [laughs] But my point is without us really naming and owning some of the huge systemic barriers we've had in the workplace, I think we're just gonna let the status quo run, and I think you have to be brave enough to get super uncomfortable and address those challenges.Zach: You know, and it's interesting you say that, right? And of course I agree. It leads me to the next question I have, which is recently Goldman Sachs announced that they won't be taking companies public without at least one diverse board member, and then they went on to emphasize gender diversity. My first question is do you think that this is substantive, and then two, or Part B to that, do you believe black and brown men are largely excluded from DEI initiatives, and if so, why?Ruchika: Okay, so firstly do I think that it's substantive? I don't think so, not at all. I think actually the word diverse--like, I think "diverse board member" already is just problematic. And here's another shout-out. You know, Aubrey Blanche talks about how you cannot--the word "diverse person" is actually problematic. Like, there's no such thing as a diverse person, right? [?] a white person is diverse, right? So diverse itself, you know, like, back to language, like, name what you mean, and what you mean here is "underrepresented," right? Like, that's what Goldman Sachs meant by one diverse board member. What they meant was underrepresented or underestimated. [?], but underestimated board member is what they were talking about, right? So already that training is problematic. And I think if you emphasize gender diversity, I really think you're missing the boat, right? Are female founders underrepresented and underestimated? Absolutely, right? But here's real talk. In the Fortune 500, 19% of the C-Suite is made up of white women. Only 4% is made up of women of color, right? So if you're really talking about systemic change, if you're talking about not trying to go through the same systems that are already in place, then you really have to look at race. Without that intersectionality, without actually naming that not only do we mean one board member from a underrepresented background in terms of gender but also race, you're just really perpetuating the problem, right? So I think that--I just think they didn't go far enough. I like the idea. I like what they're trying to say. And we also know that in many, many cases, white women do perpetuate similar systems of patriarchy, right? If you talk to any woman of color in the world, she has a story for you about that.Zach: It's so interesting that you say that, right? Because I really want to talk about the role that white women play in upholding--not only upholding white supremacy, but also ironically--or unironically--patriarchy as well, right? And so it's like, what--I think there's more research and work to be done, and/or I'd love to just bring on more folks to just really deep dive into that subject, because I think it's worth discussing. I think that it's--as a black, straight man, I benefit from patriarchy, and I have my own privileges. I do believe that white women sit in a very unique position in America, or just in the world in general, in that they are an oppressed group but also heavily benefit from white supremacy, and so it's just curious. And you're absolutely right, I've talked to plenty of women, black and brown women, who have their own experiences and frustrations, and I've seen them as well. I've seen oppression in action at work. But I do find it to be an underdiscussed topic. I know that there are articles and things out there. I still just think there's many more conversations we could have around it. I'm curious as to what's gonna need to happen for us to, like, just more unabashedly address the topic head on though.Ruchika: Absolutely, and I think it's, again, that being comfortable with getting really uncomfortable, because I think so much of, again, sort of the leftover of workplaces that were designed for and have been sort of continued on by white men, I think it's very much like you don't talk politics at work, you don't--you don't bring your sort of real, authentic self to work, and we know that that's changing with the next generation. I did want to answer your question about black and brown men largely being excluded from DEI initiatives. I do think so. I think black and brown men are--I think they do face some very specific and very, very difficult challenges. From a research standpoint, they--you know, we know research can always be flawed, but McKinsey's Women in the Workplace study, their report--I in fact have it in front of me--shows that, at entry-level, men of color represent 16% of entry-level jobs in corporations, and when it comes to the C-Suite, that's down to 9%, where with women of color it's 17% at entry-level and 4% in the C-Suite. So we know that, you know, while there's a huge underrepresentation of men of color, the percentage of underrepresentation of women of color relative to how many actually enter the workforce is really stark, right? Like, a quarter versus closer to half. So my point here is I think when you look at the data, you know, I can see why perhaps the experiences of men of color are sometimes left out and excluded from DEI initiatives. I do think it's a very, very important part of--again, if you really want to make substantial change, you do have to include them. The only other way, again academically, I've looked at this is what I've found is that when you address the two historically most underestimated identities in the workplace, right, or historically lower-status identities--and that's gender and race, so women of color--that's where you can really make a big difference, because if you look at white women, they benefit from, you know, one high status, the [?] of being white, but one low status, and for men of color it's patriarchy. You benefit from it. So I think there's this--I think it's a very delicate dance, but do I think we should build corporate diversity initiatives without including the experience of men of color? Absolutely not. I think again you will miss out, and again you're gonna leave things out that really are crucial to making sustainable change.Zach: So you speak about change and you talk about, like, the future. You know, it's curious, 'cause as millennials--as we've entered the workforce, you know, there was this collective anticipation from thought leaders around "Okay, yo, watch out, 'cause millennials about to shake it up. We about to cause a ruckus, you know? It's about to be crazy over here," and there was a lot of that talk. I'm curious, you know, how have you seen that in the work that you do practically, the infusion of the millennial generation, and then what, if any, shifts do you anticipate as Generation Z comes into the workforce in the next decade?Ruchika: You know, I don't really 100% know how to answer this honestly. I mean, I teach students who are at the sort of cusp of millennial, Gen Z, and it's really amazing to see, you know? They're very, very different, at least in the sense of being at least aware of some of the huge problems we see in the world today. I mean, they're the people most impacted by climate change, for example. And I do see that there is a very early understanding of social justice and why this is important, and that really gives me a lot of hope, right? You know, when I taught five years ago, my students weren't that socially justice-minded in the way that they are right now. So already in five years I'm starting to see a huge change. At the same time, I think, again, they're inheriting systems that were built with patriarchy and white supremacy at the core of them. So what's interesting and exciting to see is many reject that, and they're starting their own businesses, they're doing their own thing, they're in their own side hustles and their side gigs, and that's really interesting, and that's a very important part of the change of the future of work. At the same time, I think without addressing those systems of oppression, you are still gonna find many millennials who will continue to co-opt into them for many reasons, right? I mean, this is the generation that's the most financially insecure in close to a century, and they're really, really struggling with a lot of the mistakes that the generations before them made, and so I think that there's no perfect answer for this. I think what I will say is that it's exciting to see at least the data showing that millennials and Gen Z really care deeply about, you know, working in a place where they can live out their values, and they would actually--a significant portion of them would actually rather take lower pay than work for a place where their values don't align, and that's really exciting. That is a very different way of looking in the workplace. And again, maybe sometimes--I mean, I'm a millennial. Maybe I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing if I was not a millennial, right? Like, maybe I would have had that terrible experience in tech and I would have been like, "Well, you know, this is just the way that it is, and life's like that, and I need to continue." And I just want to admit that there's tremendous privilege in me being able to do that. I mean, I talk to immigrant women whose ability to live in this country is tied to working for a job no matter how toxic it is, right? I talk to many, many, many people who have had to continue working in workplaces that were terrible for their mental health, terrible for their health in general, and they just had to, right? For a variety of financial reasons, health insurance, et cetera. So I do want to acknowledge that.Zach: So let's do this. Let's talk a little bit about you, right? You have so much going on, and so I just want to make sure that we really give you space for you to share what you're excited about this year and just what you're focused on.Ruchika: Thank you. Indeed, I do a lot. I don't like to talk about myself, but I will say my goal for myself this year is to do a lot more speaking based on some of the topics that I care about, and, you know, it's really inspirational when I'm able to address a room of people, and I've had people come up to me and say, "Thank you so much. This is the first time our leader has heard about unconscious bias and the experience of women of color," or "This is the first time we've actually had language around what diversity, equity and inclusion means, and thank you for saying the things that you've said." So I think part of my goal for this year is just to continue being a very vocal advocate for women of color, for people of color in the workplace, keeping an intersectional lens when it comes to, you know, diversity efforts. So that's something I definitely want to do. I do write for Harvard Business Review, and my hope is to do a lot more work for them as the year comes along. I would like to share one article with you, Zach. Actually there are two. One that I'm really, really proud of is one I wrote very recently about why it's important to pronounce people's name correctly. I know I have a challenging name and an unfamiliar name in this country, and it really makes all the difference if you think about inclusion, and as time goes on this absolutely includes people's pronouns and other sort of very subtle ways of making sure that you include people, and one of the easiest ways is to make an effort to get their name right. And so it sounds so simple, and it makes all the difference, because my name, 9 out of 10 times, is mispronounced. Like, even when I pronounce it correctly for people, they don't want to listen, and I think that is something that really needs to change. So there's that. The other is I really hope to continue writing about and speaking about topics that, like, generally we don't easily talk about, and for me one of those is talking about office housework. So a couple of years ago I wrote an article about how women of color are asked to do more office housework, right? So this means all the non-glamorous work. It can be actually, you know, correlated to housework, like, you know, ordering lunch, doing the dishes, whatever it is, tidying up after meetings, but it also relates to the non-glamorous work at work, you know, like taking meeting notes or sitting on committees that don't lead to promotion or mentoring the interns, for example. Like, i t's not gonna impact your performance review, and so I really want to continue shedding light on these topics that people generally don't talk about, but they do actually make a huge difference when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. Zach: Man, shout-out to you, Ruchika. This has been super dope. I'm so excited. I love your work, I love your writing. We're gonna make sure we have all of your information in the show notes, including the books that you referenced, and then, like, let's just make sure--you know, you're a friend of the show. Like, you're welcome back at any time. So if you have anything you want to plug or you want to promote, you come here. We got you, okay? I'm serious, we got you. Let's see here. Before we let you go, any parting words you have for us, for the folks listening in, for the--so we call... so did you watch The Avengers?Ruchika: You know, I did not.Zach: Okay. All right, so--Ruchika: In my defense, I have a 3-year-old, and life is very full. [laughs]Zach: No, super respect. I definitely get it. My wife and I are welcoming our first kid.Ruchika: Oh, congratulations.Zach: Thank you very much. I was gonna make a reference. So, like, on Living Corporate, we call aspiring allies Buckys, because in The Avengers movie, Ruchika, Captain America had a friend, and his name was Bucky Barnes. But, see, Bucky Barnes got hurt, and he had to get some medical help, but his medical problems were so complex they had to actually send him to Wakanda, which is this fictionalized African nation--Ruchika: I know Wakanda. [laughs]Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so--[laughs] and so then he goes to Wakanda, and they end up calling Bucky "The White Wolf," you see what I'm saying? Because he's, like, a friend of the Wakandans. So, you know, it's a long way of saying we have a lot of Buckys listening in, aspiring allies, and I'm just curious if you have any words for them, for the Wakandans listening in, and for everybody in-between.Ruchika: Ooh, wow. Okay, that is such a big sort of closing. [Zach laughs] So listen, I'll start first with the Buckys. I think here's the deal. You know, I think it's always--it's easy to, like, talk and believe that your frame of reference and your narrative is the most important or the most significant, and I think what we need to really start doing is to step back and listen. Like, literally listen and open up your networks and open up sort of your privilege and open up your world for people who haven't had that experience, right? And what I mean is, like, for example, I'm a small business owner. Buy from me. Don't come to me and say, "Oh, you're doing great things. I'm so proud of you." Buy from me. Refer me, you know? [cha-ching sfx] Yeah, literally. Like, it's literally that, you know? And if someone's doing great work at your company and, you know, you're a white man with a lot of influence, recommend the woman of color. "Hey, you know who should run this meeting? This person who never gets to do that," you know what I mean? So for me it's about moving away from being a passive ally into an active accomplice, and I've heard this framing from a few different people. And so it's really about being very active. So that's my thoughts about, you know, Buckys. When it comes to people of color, when it comes to people who have been underestimatd, I had an experience last week where I was underrepresented. It was really hard. It really, really hurt. I think in those moments you really need to find your people. Like, you need to find your people. And they can be Buckys or they can be fellow Wakandans, but you need to find your people that you can really come clean with, that you can sit down and be like, "Hey, this horrible thing happened to me. Tell me I'm not crazy," because for a long time, especially everything that actually led me to this moment, has been me pretending like, "No, everything's great. I'm fine. Yeah, some moments are tough, but otherwise I'm doing great. I'm working super hard." And I think we forget, like, we need those mental health checks. We need people who we can rely on, who can navigate some of the really, really hard stuff you have to navigate when you are underestimated at work. Does that work? Does that help? [laughs]Zach: Does that work? Let me tell you something, you're dropping mad bombs. [Flex bomb sfx] That's incredible. Man, no, absolutely it works. Thank you so much, Ruchika. Now, look, you were talking about the importance of pronouncing someone's name, and let me just say as an example, it is very important, y'all, and my country self--and I know some of y'all may think I come from Connecticut, but no, I'm actually from Georgia. Like, I'm very country, and--Ruchika: I love Georgia. I lived there for a while.Zach: I appreciate that, and yes, Georgia is a dope place. I'm from Rome, Georgia. Shout-out Rome, Georgia, and then shout-out to Mississippi 'cause that's where I'm from by way of 'cause that's where all my people are from. But look, you want to take the time, y'all, and really slow down and make sure you can--and ask. Like, people will always respect and appreciate you trying to ask and seek as opposed to being like, "What's your name? I'ma just call you Bob." Like, "No, don't call me Bob. That's not my name," right? Like, "My parents gave me this name. This name carries weight and meaning and history and culture, and it's part of who I am as a human being that exists on this plane of existence with you, so please take the time to understand how to pronounce my name." So with that said, Ruchika Tulshyan...Ruchika: Thank you very much.Zach: Thank you very much. No, you were a beast. This has been great. Very thankful to have you on the Living Corporate podcast. That does it for us, y'all. You know where to check us out. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. We're on all the different DSPs, so we got Spotify, Apple... I don't think we're on TIDAL. Maybe. I don't know. Holla at me, Hov. "It's ya boy!" I don't know. But we're on all the other DSPs, okay? So if you Google Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? You know, if you want to make sure--if you're a browser person, you're not really trying to take any risks, you know, type in www.livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, but we don't have livingcorporate.com, okay? Australia has livingcorporate.com. The day that we're able to wrest livingcorporate.com from Australia is the day that we have arrived, okay? Ruchika: Wow. So you went out there and you got all of those domains?Zach: We've got all the domains.Ruchika: Wow. That is really--look, that takes a lot of work. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm, like, totally in awe, but this is, like, double the awe. That means you're really serious about this.Zach: Oh, we're not playing. So if you type in Living Corporate dot anything else we will come up, it's just that livingcorporate.com--so Australia, it's, like, this corporate housing website thing. It's really strange. And I've been, like, doing my work. I've been doing my Googles, my research, trying to figure out "How can I get this domain?" But you know, Australia's a big place. Living Corporate, we're only--you know, we're just one little company, but we're gonna get it though one day. Anyway, the point is we're all over. If you want to send us a listener letter, look, DMs are wide open. We are not elitists. You don't have to follow us, and we don't have to follow you, for you to DM us. Just hit us up, baby. We'll respond. Ruchika: But you should follow Living Corporate because their podcasts are so incredible, and really, if you care about, you know, making real change and you want to hear from people who are out there who are really making change, between all of you and your guests, I mean, I learn something every single episode.Zach: [straight up sfx] You hear that? Did you hear what Ruchika Tulshyan said? Come on, now. Goodness, gracious, the love is real. All right, y'all. Ruchika: I mean it.Zach: And I feel it, so thank you. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been talking to Ruchika Tulshyan, speaker, innovator, educator...Ruchika: All the things. [laughs]Zach: All the things, you know what I'm saying? Give her all the things. Don't play, okay? And make sure, Harvard Business Review, if y'all listen to this, you know... don't play. She's dropping that heat.Ruchika: Hey, this is a very important part of this whole thing, okay? It's really important to spread the love and to, what I say, you know--you know, this is not a case of, like, sending the elevator back down, which is super important, especially, like--I say this a lot when I talk to a room full of women, but it's really important to be able to share the love and, like, be real, and be real in the sense like, "I need this. Can you help me get there?" And I think that's one thing that, if you've been underestimated at work, you've been told for so long that, you know, you don't matter or what you're doing isn't important enough, then it becomes hard to ask for help, right? I mean, all of the lean in narrative is about "Oh, you need to ask," but you have always been shot down or you have been shot down 9 out of 10 times, then of course you're gonna have bloody imposter syndrome, you know? Zach: Oh, my gosh. Yo, we gotta--okay, so do we need to have you back, like, for a variety of reasons, but certainly to talk about, like, how to ask for help and just, like, managing the emotional labor of asking for help over and over and over again, 'cause you're absolutely right. I mean, now, look, my dad, he's a salesman. Like, that's really who he is, and so I get it from him. Like, I'll shoot. Like, I'll shoot over and over and over again, but it doesn't change the fact that at the end I'm exhausted, and it's defeating to hear "no" all the time or to be undermined or for you to be told no, and then someone else comes along and asks for help and basically they end up doing a watered-down version of what you wanted help to do, you know what I mean? Like, that is... ugh, anyway. Goodness, y'all. Look, Ruchika got us over here about to have a whole new podcast in the wrap-up section of the show, but that's okay, y'all. Look, you've been listening to Living Corporate. Make sure you check us out. Check out the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.Ruchika: And I'll be back. [laughs]Zach: And she'll be back. [laughs]

Zach welcomes Dr. Oni Blackstock, the assistant commissioner for the Bureau of HIV/AIDS Prevention and Control for the NYC Health Department, to the podcast to discuss a wide variety of topics, ranging from her unique career journey to dismantling white supremacist constructs, and she graciously offers a couple points of recommendation regarding how to get started when it comes to advocating for yourself to get the health-related help that you may need at work.Connect with Dr. Blackstock on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram!Visit Living-Corporate.com.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, man, you know what we do. It's 2020. You know, fresh vision. You know, we're out here making moves, having conversations with movers and shakers, influencers, educators, public servants... what else? Who else? Executives, recruiters, entertainers. You know what I'm saying? Anybody who's willing to have an authentic conversation centering and amplifying underrepresented voices at work, and today, you know, I'm really excited about this particular interview. And I say that every time, but, like, I mean it every single time, even though I say it, like, over and over, but I really do mean it. And so I'm really excited. This particular episode we have Dr. Oni Blackstock. Dr. Blackstock, how are you doing? What's going on? Oni: I'm good. Thanks so much for having me.Zach: Thank you so much for joining us. Now, look, what I would like to do--'cause see, what I sometimes do, in the past I would give this, like, kind of, like, generic--I don't want to say generic, but I would, like, read off an intro, almost like a late-night show, and then I'd go in and I'd ask people to introduce themselves again. It seems kind of redundant, so what I want to do this time is just give you space and, for those of us who don't know you, just give you some space to talk a little bit about yourself.Oni: Okay, great. So again, I'm Oni Blackstock. I'm a primary care physician and HIV specialist. I also spent about the past 10 years conducting HIV research, but I now lead the Bureau of HIV at the New York City Health Department, meaning I oversee our city's response to ending the HIV epidemic. I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York. Parents, my dad is an immigrant from Jamaica, and my mom is Brooklyn-born and bred. And I have a twin sister, Dr. Uche Blackstock, and, you know, we're very much inspired by our parents to really meld medicine and public health with activism and advocacy, and so I get to do that in my current role leading the Bureau of HIV here in New York City.Zach: Okay. So first of all, incredible background, incredible legacy, and shout-out to the Blackstocks, the family, and shout-out to your sister of course as well. So I know, you know, the background being Jamaican--now, you know we do air horns. Now, let me ask you this. I've asked past Jamaican guests, but it is offensive or culturally appropriative that we also use air horns on our podcast?Oni: No, not at all. It's great. It's about the diaspora. Zach: Okay, cool, 'cause I gotta let 'em fly for you. Let me just drop 'em right here. [air horns sfx] Okay, 'cause I'm just very excited and thankful that you're here. Now, let's talk a little bit more about your background, right? So you talk about your focus being HIV and that particular illness. What was it about that work that drew you in particularly?Oni: Yeah. So I was in medical school when I feel like I quote-unquote first discovered HIV, and that was actually when I was doing global health work. So I had traveled to Ghana and West Africa, as well as South Africa, to do HIV-related research, and when I came back I did a rotation as a medical student back in New York City and saw that we had black people, Latino people, dealing with many of the same sort of medical-related issues, and even just sort of socio-structural issues, as I did when I was in Ghana and South Africa, and became very interested in our domestic HIV epidemic, and so I ended up doing my residency, which is the training that you do after medical school, in the Bronx at Montefiore Medical Center, where again I was seeing young black and brown people dying of, like, advanced AIDS, which was something I was really surprised and I think maybe people didn't realize was stlil happening in New York City. And I think what I in particular--what draws me to HIV is that it's really--it's not just an interesting bio-medical condition, but it's also, like, a social condition, and it's really an epidemic of not behavior, but an epidemic of inequality. So it's a confluence of lots of isms and lots of phobias, and you put all of those together and you sort of get HIV and you see the communities that are most impacted.Zach: And, you know, it's really interesting, this conversation particularly, because you're in a position where you're providing awareness and research and thought leadership and care for underrepresented, underserved populations--and often times stigmatized and just oppressed populations--while also being an intersectional member of a variety of underrepresented and oppressed populations and identity groups. Can you talk about, like, what that experience, that compounded experience, is like for you? Like, being in this space, being who you are?Oni: Right. Yeah, so I think what has driven me to do this work is because I'm from many of the different communities that are impacted by HIV. So I think sometimes for people who do this work it's maybe about careerism or they find it intellectually interesting, but for me it's really about helping my people and my community. So yeah, I mean, I think having the different identities, being a cisgender black woman, being someone who's queer and being at the intersection at these different marginalized identities gives me a different appreciation and understanding of what the factors are that folks are dealing with out in the community, and also the position. You know, even when we're designing, for instance, social marketing campaigns, like, I can say--you know, I'm able to give my input and--you know, we had a campaign, for instance, that was focused on pre-exposure prophylaxis, or PrEP. It's a once-a-day pill that people who are HIV-negative can take to stay HIV-negative. We did one for a focus on cisgender and transgender women, women of all different backgrounds, but what I did notice that I think most other people didn't notice is that all of the women were very, like, fem-presenting, and so, you know, I was like, "In the future when we do this work, we might want to have folks who may be non-conforming in their appearance." You know, just have different folks who may identify as women but have a different gender expression. And so I think, like, just sort of that awareness of understanding the different needs that may be out there of having these different perspectives is something that I think I can bring to this role and I think is, you know, really important, because the reality is that in many cities we don't have people who are leading this type of work who are reflective of the communities that are most impacted.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. It's interesting because, you know, even as we talk about, like, representation and diversity in our marketing and, like, presentation, it's interesting how colorism and patriarchy still, like, sneak in to those spaces too, right? So, like, if you have--like, if you're presenting as a woman, often times it is going to be someone who is, like, traditionally fem or lighter-skinned or with hair that is a certain texture. Like, there's still, like, this template, right? That individuals are going to--that we either consciously or subconsciously seek to, like, place people in. Even when you see, like, people in positions of authority or any type of subject matter expertise in the space, you end up--I don't know. Again, they fit certain templates to me, and that leads me to another question though. Kind of starting at the top. So your lived experience brings a certain level of empathy along with your actual academic expertise. May I ask, are there ever moments or times where you believe that sometimes your lived experience or the passion that comes with that lived experience is almost counted against you because you lack a certain level of [laughs] intellectual objectivity that maybe white individuals or just folks who are not necessarily identifying these particular identity groups, that they can relate to?Oni: Well, I think--right, so that idea of, like, objectivity... I mean, it's, like, a construct. It's, like, a white supremacist construct, because we all come with our own perspectives and backgrounds. So it's sort of, like, a fallacy, I think, but yeah, I think that might happen. I think I am also fortunate, or maybe some might say unfortunate, but, you know, I did get my college degree at Harvard undergrad. I was a computer science major and I was pre-med. I went to Harvard Medical School. I got my Master's in Health Sciences from Yale's School of Medicine. So I have, like, sort of these bonafides that are sort of respected more by white culture, the dominant culture, which I feel like gives me quote-unquote credibility among some of these folks, if that makes any sense. So I feel like that somehow, like, helps to open doors in a different way, and then obviously having--you know, and sometimes just even having an MD, people make assumptions, and sometimes you can use those to your benefit, which is helpful. But, you know, at the same time, it does feel--it's kind of cringe-worthy and kind of not the best feeling to be benefitting from these same systems which also act to, like, oppress us as well, so... [?]Zach: Well, it's complex and nuanced. I'm just curious about that, because as I continue to get into just this work, any time you talk about, like, underserved folks or, like, doing work that seeks to push for equity in certain spaces, there seems to be, like, this underlying kind of attitude sometimes, so I was just curious about that. You know, you just spoke about--you used one of the buzzwords that triggers a lot of fragility in today's society, white supremacy. I'm curious, you know, on Living Corporate we've discussed the concept of decolonization, and one of the ways that we've seen colonization demonstrated is in language. Can we talk a little bit about medical terms that, intentionally or unintentionally, undermine the reality and complexity of systemic racism and other isms and various forms of oppression?Oni: Sure. Okay, so I think any term that, like, focuses the issue on the individual as opposed to, like, the structures and systems that drive risk and disease and poor health and poor well-being, so--I mean, for me, I mean, there's [?]--I actually tweeted about this recently. So, you know, terms like someone being a "medically-complex patient" or someone being high-risk or non-compliant really is about--you know, white supremacist culture puts the onus and responsibility on the individual and doesn't--you know, it ignores, like, completely, the context in which people are making decisions and choices. And so, you know, these are--you know, we're trying to, like, move away, at least at the Health Department, my bureau, from some of these terms, which are victim-blaming and lack recognition for these broader systems that increase risk for individuals.Zach: And I'm curious about that. Like, what does it look like to drive those conversations and to have folks say, like, "Stop. Let's take a step back and actually look at the systems that are impacting these individuals." Like, what does that look like? How do you broach those topics?Oni: Yeah. So I think one of the cool things here, at least the New York City Health Department, is the former health commissioner--her name is Dr. Mary Bassett. She's a black woman, and she started a whole initiative called Race to Justice, which was sort of an effort to understand and recognize the impact on racism on public health and health outcomes, and so by someone in her position sort of normalizing the conversations around racism really sort of opened the door for a lot of the work that I'm doing in my bureau with the staff here. So for instance, we received millions of dollars in funding from the federal government and from the city government that we then bid out in a competitive process to clinics and other community-based organizations to provide HIV prevention treatment services, and we were looking at this process and, you know, seeing that the same sort of large organizations that are typically not run by folks who look like the folks who are impacted tended to get a lot of the contracts. And so the great thing about being able to lead a bureau, lead an organization, is that we made sure that--we started looking at the process and figuring out "What are the ways that we could make this process more equitable?" But what we also did is in our request for a proposal we called out these different systems of oppression. You know, many times--before I came here, like, a lot of the requests for proposals would say things like "poverty" and "food insecurity," and it's like, "But what are the things that drive those things?" Right? Like, we need to call them out, and if we call them out, the organizations that we fund will know that these are issues that we are thinking about, and we're thinking explicitly about equity in this work, and so I made sure that in our request for a proposal that we use this language, that we don't just say people of color, that we say specifically the groups that are impacted. We say black and Latinx people. Like, you know, it's just calling it out and being really explicit and really putting it out there so that it becomes normalized and really part of the work that we do.Zach: And it's interesting, because I've noticed over the past--I would say since, I don't know, since... so over the past, like, decade or so. 'Cause I'm 30, so I've been working for about 9 or 10 years, right? So as I just kind of come into adulthood, just looking around, looking at the language that people use when it comes to just, like, systems of injustice or inequity, it's almost like they just--we use language that is... like things just happened. It's like we don't talk about how things are connected at all. I think I was reading some story about a young man who had a mistaken identity, and it said "A teen was hospitalized after being mis-identified by police." Well, no. He wasn't hospitalized because he was mis-identified by police. He was hospitalized because he was beaten by the police because he mis-identified him. It's almost like we take out the action or the accountability in the language and framing that we place. So let's do this. As you know, since the publication of Healthy People 2020, it's been confirmed that stress is one of the primary drivers of racial and socio-economic health disparities. Can we talk a little bit about the practical impacts of chronic stress for black and brown folks and how it shows up when it's under-treated? And then, you know, as you talk through a bit about what that looks like, I guess my Part B to that question is what are things that black and brown folks should be looking out for regarding their own stress and what ways can they advocate for themselves as patients?Oni: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so obviously these are, like, very weighty, big issues. You know, I think stress has, you know, wide-ranging impacts on our overall health and well-being. You know, when we are exposed to stress, or just the stress of being a black or brown person in this country--you know, I don't know if folks realize this, but it leads to, obviously, an elevation in [stress?] hormones like cortisol and nor-epinephrine and epinephrine, and those have, like, very harmful effects on the body. And so we can think about mental health, so, you know, depression and anxiety, and I have to--full disclosure, I myself am dealing with depression and anxiety, and I think a lot of it is attributed to really the chronic stress that we face, I think particularly in some of these professional work environments where we are held to very different standards than other people, and so having, you know, a support network and having a spiritual practice--which is something that I really want to develop more--are ways to really I think counteract these--you know, and the impact on the quality of sleep that we have, our metabolism, cardiovascular risk. You know, chronic stress predisposes us to a wide range of medical conditions, so yeah. So I think when we see--you know, a lot of the disparities or inequities that we see, you know, are driven by, you know, the impact of, you know, racism, and then it sometimes has direct, you know, effects on us, in terms of, like, the violence that, you know, is committed against us by police, but then also some of these indirect effects of dealing with chronic stress and the impact that it has on our bodies and minds.Zach: And I think--so I'll speak for myself in this example. I'm an example of this, right? Like, just kind of, like, moving and shaking in these spaces, finally taking a second to breathe and I'm looking back and I'm like, "Wait, I can't sleep. I'm having, like, auditory hallucinations. I'm, like, crying for no reason. Like, I feel sick." You know, there's all these different issues that have, like, you know, over time just been so untreated, and like, so, finally just now starting to get help for that. I'm curious though, what points of recommendation would you have for folks who are at the very beginning of this? Like, and how--what would you say to them who are just kind of looking to get started and kind of advocating for themselves to get the help that they need?Oni: Right. So I think, you know, obviously having a support network obviously is key, and so that people who are close to you, who you can speak to about, you know, the various stressors that you may have at work, in particular if you may be one of a few black people, or even if you aren't one of a few black or brown people. You know, our experiences in the workplace are very different from other people's. So definitely having a support network, and I think also not waiting for people to check in on you, but also to the extent that you can sharing with, like, your family and loved ones, particularly those who will be helpful, like, how you are feeling, 'cause I think sometimes, for many of us, we are very high-functioning, and so when you--you may be depressed, feeling depression and anxiety, but you are, like, highly productive. You're getting things done. You have a family. You have a great job. But, you know, you still need support, and it may not be, like, overtly obvious to your family. So I think, to the extent that we can, reaching out when we can. Obviously, you know, for instance, depression can sometimes impact people's ability to motivate and to be able to reach out to people, so obviously then we have to check on each other. I think also something that I have been increasingly learning is having some sort of, like, spiritual practice or some way of, like, grounding yourself, whether it's yoga or meditation or prayer. Whatever it is or whoever you pray to, having that be a regular part of your day and of your practice is I think incredibly important, because, like, you know, it's very hard to change these systems, and for the most part we have ourselves and we have our support networks. And so those are some of the recommendations that I would have. And I think also mentorship. If folks have mentors who, you know, have been in similar fields, or maybe even in a different field but can provide guidance and support, that makes a huge, huge difference. And also peer mentors as well, having folks who may be going through similar experiences as you where you can kind of commune and, like, come together and commiserate and also be helpful.Zach: You know, it's interesting. So you talked a little bit about your twin sister Dr. Uche Blackstock, and recently she published an article titled "Why Black Doctors Like Me Are Leaving Faculty Positions In Academic Medical Centers," and in the piece, towards the end of it, she says, "Academic medical centers must begin to recognize and rectify the historical and current impact of racism on the health care workforce. Their leaders should listen actively and respond accordingly to the concerns of black faculty members and students, adopt an anti-racist philosophy, and, through a lens of racial equity, intentionally commit the time, effort and resources required to dismantle the structural racism and white supremacy embedded in their current institutional cultures." Now, your work--again, we've been talking about it this entire conversation--is to combat the attitudes and white supremacist institutions that not only create but thrive off of inequity. I'm curious, in your mind, what incentives do these institutions have to actually make substantive, long-standing institutional changes?Oni: Yeah, that's a really tough question. You know, I think what we see motivates folks in society tends to be financial incentives, so I think if there is something in it, like, sort of profit-wise for these institutions, like, that can be helpful. I really don't know, because I think, you know, for many of these institutions--you know, I work at a government agency. The government has played a role for more than a century or two, probably several centuries, in perpetuating, you know, racist policies, and I think--you know, nowadays obviously we want to do the right thing and rectify things, but there's still--you know, the workplace here reflects what we see outside. Like, the public health department isn't immune from the inequities that we see outside, and I think that it requires really visionary leadership and commitment to change, but what it also requires is, like, white people to step to the side and there to be more leadership opportunities for black and brown people, and I think that's really a struggle. I think people support the idea of equity in theory, but then in practice it looks really different. I think, even just from conversations I had today with some of my staff, you know, in practice it can feel very uncomfortable. I think there's that saying, like, "When you're used to privilege, equity feels like oppression," or something like that. Yeah, so it's like, you know, when the going gets rough and you're really wanting to institute these changes, I mean, there's gonna be--there's tremendous pushback and resistance, and they're the reason why things have stayed the way that they are. So I have to be honest, I don't have, like, an answer. I would be curious to know about institutions that have had transformations and have done this well. It's a process. I know here at the agency, at the health department in New York City, you know, since Dr. Bassett came in 2014, and then the initiative started I believe in 2015, you know, it's slow-going, because these are, like, processes and structures that have been in place for centuries that we're now trying to undo. So I think--there's this organization that we work with called Race Forward, and they talk about equity being both a process and an outcome, and so we try to emphasize the process part, because people often want to see, you know, concrete change, and where there's an opportunity to show concrete change we try to, but we realize that this work takes a long time.Zach: So, you know, out of respect to the time, you know, I haven't been putting a lot of sound effects in, but let me just tell you, you've been casually dropping crazy Flex bombs this entire interview. So I just want to react to that. [Flex bomb sfx] You was also lighting 'em up like [blatblatblat sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Oni: Wow, that's impressive.Zach: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. That was also Cardi B, ladies and gentlemen.Oni: Oh, I love her.Zach: [Cardi B "ow" sfx] All right, so let's do this. Before we let you go, we typically give folks space, shout-outs, parting words. What you got for us?Oni: Wow. Okay, so I would say that I'm sure many of your listeners or people who have been quite successful by this society's standards, and I think often, like, we use, you know, degrees and job titles and stuff to, you know, say how successful we've been, but what I realized, you know, with the different leadership opportunities I've had, the different degrees I've gotten, it's really about finding happiness. I know it sounds really hackneyed and trite, but really doing the internal work to be happy regardless of whether you have, like, these accolades or not, because, like, my leadership job here and my degrees aren't gonna keep me, like--you know, happy at night, you know? Like, it's really believing in myself and that, you know, regardless of whether I'm working in a clinic, whether I'm leading the Bureau of HIV in the health department, I still--you know, I am really the work of, like, all of my ancestors who came before me. I, like, represent everything that they have been through, so to then think about success in, like, this white supremacist framework would not be something that they would be happy about. So I just try to, like, think about, you know, the family members and [?] that got me here and really about my own self-worth and happiness and not to measure that by these different accolades and positions and degrees.Zach: Wow. You know what? Just shout-out to you. Like, this is incredible. You know, there are people--I will say this as we wrap up--you know, there are people that I--that Living Corporate and myself individually, but also, like, our team, will, like, look for to get on the platform, and we'll look at their social media and we'll be like, "Dang, they look like they're real spicy on social media," then they get on the podcast and they're not as spicy. It's kind of like, "Come on, what are you doing?" But, like, I feel like you have matched, if not exceeded, your spiciness. Like, if I was to rate it, like, it is higher. Like, three curry goats, like, [?]. Anyway, it's great. All right, now, look, y'all. This has been dope. Y'all know what we do. We're having these conversations every single week, coming to y'all with dope conversations. This has been Zach. You have been talking to Dr. Blackstock, okay? Dr. Blackstock is the assistant commissioner of the NYC Department of Health & Mental Hygiene, focusing on HIV prevention and research and study, doing all the amazing things up in New York. Let's see here. What else? You know, check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and check us out on our website www.living-corporate.com--please say the dash. We do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, .net. We have all of the livingcorporates. 'Cause, see, people hit me up, Dr. Blackstock, and they'll be like, "What's the website?" And I'm like, "Look, it's livingcorporate.co or living-corporate.com," but people go livingcorporate.com, and then it pops up some Australian website, and I'm like, "Look, we don't have that domain. We have all the other domains." So you gotta make sure--you know, you gotta keep with us. You know, don't slow down. Keep up. You might get left behind. So my biggest thing right now is I want y'all to make sure y'all check the show notes, y'all look at the research and the work that Dr. Blackstock is doing. Make sure that you educate for yourself, advocate for yourself, shoot, and stay courageous out here. Did y'all hear all the stuff she was saying? Casually. She works for the government and she's talking about white supremacy. What you talking about? She's not scared, you know what I mean? Ain't nobody coming up here talking about [Law and Order sfx], you know? She's not afraid, okay? She's ready.Oni: And Zach, can I just say really quickly just as--I don't know if I'm an OG now 'cause I'm over 40, but I just want to say that I'm incredibly proud of you and this effort that you have and your Living Corporate podcast. It's really wonderful to see young people just thriving, so congratulations.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, look, we're both thriving, and I'm just over here like [look at us sfx]. You know? That's a Paul Rudd reference, everybody. Okay. All right, y'all. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. Again, you've been listening to me chop it up with Dr. Blackstock. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of speaking with Howard Bryant, an award-winning author and senior writer at ESPN, about what prompted him to write his latest book, Full Dissidence, and how he landed on the title, and Howard also talks a bit about some of the differences between power and money. Howard also touches on his coverage of Colin Kaepernick's workout, and he graciously shares his concerns about the direction of this country, particularly in the area of journalism.Connect with Howard on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and don't forget to check out his website.Learn more about Howard's latest book, Full Dissidence, by clicking here.Interested in finding out more about Howard's other books? Click here to be redirected to his Amazon page.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. Every single week we're having real talk in a corporate world. We do that by what? Having authentic conversations with black and brown thought leaders, activists, educators, executives, recruiters, entrepreneurs, anybody really who's willing to center underrepresented experiences in the workplace. And man, I'm just really excited, because this week we have Howard Bryant on the podcast. Howard Bryant is the author of nine books, the most recent being Full Dissidence: Notes From an Uneven Playing Field, and he's contributed essays to 14 others. He is a two-time Casey Award winner for best baseball book of the year, and a 2003 finalist for the Society for American Baseball Research Seymour Medal. The Heritage was the recipient of the 2019 Nonfiction Award from the American Library Association’s Black Caucus and the Harry Shaw and Katrina Hazard Donald Award for Outstanding Work in African American Studies awarded by the Popular Culture Association. He has been a senior writer for ESPN since 2007 and has served as the sports correspondent for NPR’s Weekend Edition Saturday since 2006. In 2017, he served as the guest editor for the Best American Sports Writing anthology. He has won numerous awards, as y'all should've heard by now, [laughs] and he was a finalist for the National Magazine Award in 2016 and 2018, both for commentary, and earned the 2016 Salute to Excellence Award from the National Association of Black Journalists. In addition, Mr. Bryant has appeared in several documentaries, including Baseball: The Tenth Inning and Jackie Robinson, both directed by Ken Burns, and Major League Legends: Hank Aaron, produced by the Smithsonian and Major League Baseball. Mr. Bryant, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Howard: I'm good. Thank you for having me.Zach: Man, thank you for being here. Let me start off by saying I was familiar with your work because, you know, I'm an ESPN consumer, but it was over the past few months in your--and really, like, frankly the past over a year or so of your coverage of Kaepernick, but particularly the workout that had me really investigate your work and pre-order Full Dissidence. Can we talk a little bit about what prompted you to write this book and how you got to the title for the book?Howard: Well, I think that the first question is... I think time, you know, got me--when you work on projects and when you write, it's an organic process in so many different ways. You don't really even know what you're gonna be working on, but the environment around you begins to dictate an urgency, and things start telling you that, "Okay, these are subjects--" As I always say, if an idea comes and goes, it's really not that important. If it keeps staying with you and keeps staying with you, then you have to pay attention to it. And what was happening I think in this country, if you start to look at the accumulation of the election of Barack Obama followed by Trayvon Martin followed by Jordan Davis and Ferguson and Eric Garner and all of these different things that were happening, also then followed by Kaepernick and then followed by the election of Donald Trump. You've got so many issues here that you have to pay attention to, and especially as African-Americans, you feel certainly that--the racial component of all of these ideas hit you close to home. They're not just topics. It's not just a subject for you. And I think for me what was really becoming more and more clear was that they were all connected and that the connectedness of it told you that there was something else happening that you need to explore, especially--to be more specific, I would think certainly the 2016 election made me think--it made me re-examine the relationship that I had with my white friends and my white colleagues and the people that I grew up with and all of these folks that you associate with who, in so many different ways, would want you to believe and that you would want to believe were your friends for life or that you had great relationships with and that you had great professional relationships with, and then you get to a place like this, you know, election-wise, and you start to see the gap, or when you start talking to your white colleagues about policing and you start hearing how wide the gap is between you, and then you start looking at the gap as well between what was being said about--you know, about America and its post-racial potential during the Obama administration, and then you go from that to this presidency. It just made me look at all of these different components as a black man, and you had to start reassessing the relationships and what they meant and what it meant for me personally.Zach: Man, that's just a really--well, thank you for that and the context. You're absolutely right. I recall--it's interesting because I've had long-standing relationships with white folks, and I recall during the election, leading up to it and then of course after the results, having certain conversations that I just made a presumption that we agreed about or that I would just think that--Howard: "We're on the same side."Zach: [laughs] Right? And then you have a conversation or you say something and you say--you know, you have a point of view on something that's pretty pointed or matter-of-fact, and then not to get that same level of acknowledgement back almost like--you know, you might say something like, "You know, this is clearly wrong," and then, you know, you get back a "Well, is it? I don't know." Howard: They're like, "Oh, is it really clearly wrong?" Yeah. I mean, for me the first moment of it was October 1st, 2008, and I remember this specifically because I was driving to Logan Airport in Boston. I was going down to Atlanta to go to Hank Aaron's house. I was interviewing him for my Hank Aaron biography, so I remember the date clearly. And I was on the phone with a friend of mine who I had known since we were in middle school, and she was--you know, she's a white woman, and I'm driving to the airport, and we were talking, and at some point she sort of said out loud that Sarah Palin was far more qualified to be president than Barack Obama, and that stopped me--I almost drove off the road.Zach: That would've stopped me dead. [laughs]Howard: Right? So that was the first moment where it was like, "You know what? You can't assume anything," and it really started to begin this reassessment. And it wasn't simply that we had differences of opinion. You can vote for whoever you want to vote for and I can vote for whoever I want to vote for, but the issue was more about values, and it was more about what's being said and how white people are able to balance these viewpoints and the values of these people that they're supporting and still be able to consider themselves great, great, close friends with black people, and it struck me that the reason why they're able to do this is because for them race and politics and these things, they're just topics. It's just a subject, and--Zach: They're like thought exercises, right?Howard: Well, exactly. And it may be more to them on some level, that it's not just a topic because you care about the dolphins or you care about the environment or you care about whatever, but what it is is that they're able to co-exist. They're not line-in-the-sand "I can't hang out with you" issues. It's like, "Okay." The thing that had struck me was the number of times that you've had people talk about, during the impeachment, the end of democracy, and they would use these apocalyptic terms. You know, January 21st, 2020, the day democracy died, and then in the very next sentence talk about, you know, "I can't believe how my Trump-loving friends are--" You know? I'm like, "Well, wait a minute. If you're able to break bread with these folks, and you're able to just flip the switch that it's a difference of opinion, then it's not apocalyptic." Apocalyptic means I need to make life and death choices here. I need to make survival or non-survival choices. That's what apocalyptic means to me. It means the apocalypse is coming, right? And so for me I was realizing that as a black man and as a writer and somebody who thinks about these issues as more than just topics, I wanted to re-assess the people in my life, and I wanted to re-assess these issues, and I wanted--and I think one of the things in the book that was so important to me was in that re-assessment I couldn't help but keep coming back to the importance of where Colin Kaepernick fit in this in the first chapter. I remember right when the election hit I said to a bunch of friends, "A lot of relationships are gonna change after this day," and I was really in some ways talking about myself. But what I meant about Kaepernick is here was a guy who hadn't played football since 2016 and yet he still finds himself completely at the center of the culture. He still creates or elicits such an enormous physical response from people, and my question in that first essay, what Colin Kaepernick taught us, was really to ask one major question. I mean, there's a bunch of different ideas in that essay, but one of the overarching questions for me was why is it so important for this culture to destroy this man? It's bad enough that he's not playing football, the fact that when Nike rehabilitated him with just a commercial, one 90-second commercial, you had people trying to boycott Nike. Zach: Burning it. Burning clothes.Howard: Exactly. You had people--and they weren't just people, they were law enforcement, retailers, people in the mainstream. People in positions of authority.Zach: Institutions, yeah.Howard: Exactly, going out of their way to make sure that this man didn't have anything. So you didn't want him--so it's bad enough that he's not gonna play, right? Okay, so he lost his livelihood there. You don't even want him to have a source of income.Zach: "We gotta destroy his character."Howard: Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask this question - "Why is this so important?" I mean, supposedly this is America where everybody is able to have their opinions and that's what makes us different from these other countries, you know? They don't lock you up and kill your family and do all of these different things for disagreeing with government or disagreeing with institutions, and yet you're trying to destroy him. You're not trying to take his life, but you're trying to take his livelihood, and that struck me as important.Zach: Howard, it's interesting, you know--the line you just said, "Why is it so important that we destroy this man?" That was something that you actually said--you said it on air, [laughs] and so--Howard: Yeah, on Stephen A.'s show. Zach: Yeah. [laughs] It seemed like you were, like, the--it was, like, you and I'ma say Bomani Jones were, like, for me, the only black men I saw in media initially, right? So people came back. Like, other folks--Shannon Sharpe came back and he said, "I was wrong," but initially you and Bomani Jones were the only black male voices that I heard in the sports space, like, either defend or objectively discuss Kaepernick when the whole workout situation came up. Was there tension there because of that? It just seemed--and maybe because of me, I'm on the outside looking in as a consumer, 'cause I really--I was watching, and it was your tweet thread that I was sharing with all of my friends and my colleagues and my network and everything about "Hey, this is what's going on. Look at what Howard Bryant is saying. He was there at the workout," but it seemed as if you were, like, one of, again, two voices really not kind of following the same cadence of questioning Kaepernick's content, questioning his motivations, questioning his ability. Am I off-base by saying that?Howard: No, you're not, and I was concerned--and let's be honest, you know? I'm concerned about the direction of this country, and if you are concerned about the direction of the country, you have to be triply concerned about the position of black people. Because if things are going bad, you know we're gonna get it worse. And so to me, one of the areas where I had the most concern is in our journalism. It's very basic stuff, and I was concerned, and disappointed in so many ways, during, you know, my time down there in Atlanta and the coverage that followed, because I didn't do anything remarkable. I did what we're trained to do. It's simply journalism. But it shows you where we are in the culture. It shows you where we are as a country. If people treated that like there was some--like I went above and beyond the call of my job. I just did my job. That was it. The job was to go down there and find out what was happening and talk to people and find out what the deal was. That's it. It wasn't like it took any great deal of courage to go do that. You went down there, you talked to both sides, you found out what both sides' positions were, and you recognize--because we're not, you know, stenographers, you don't [write?] them both equally. You also put your brain in the middle of it, and you filter out what is accurate, what is inaccurate, and sort of how this deal and how this workout fell apart. The problem was, and the problem is of course, that Colin Kaepernick is a lightning rod in so many ways, but you also have a media that is so tilted towards the powerful. You've got rights holders. You've got relationships. You've got business relationships that, you know, are going to overwhelm, in some ways, the journalism. I had an interview the other day and somebody said to me, "Well, I think on balance, when you look at everything, Colin Kaepernick has really been lauded and appreciated and celebrated by media," and I was like, "Are you out of your mind?"Zach: That's not true at all.Howard: I said, "I find Colin Kaepernick's position to have been distorted from Day One."Zach: Absolutely. Yes.Howard: Because every person that goes out there and talks about the military when Colin is talking about policing is inherently distorting his message. If you're talking about, you know, being American or un-American, you're distorting his message. I never felt like he was being treated fairly in any of this because the message kept getting distorted, and we're supposedly very, very smart people, so it's not that complicated a message. Zach: You know, and it's interesting because--so to your point around distorting the message, even from the jump when he said, "Look, I'm protesting police brutality and white supremacy in this country," I don't recall anyone ever zooming in on the white supremacy part, like, in the punditry or the media talking heads, right? Like, we would zoom on--Howard: Well, why would they? They're the bulls-eye. He's indicting them. He wasn't indicting police only, he was indicting them as well, and I think that one of the big issues that struck me in this entire sort of story, and also one of the reasons for writing the book, was the fact that the idea--over the course of my lifetime, all 51 years of it, the American flag was always a symbol of aspiration, just like the Statue of Liberty is a symbol of aspiration. "Come here and you can do better. Come here and you can improve. Come here and you can go as far as your ability and talent takes you," and it was always aspirational when it came to race. Even, you know, your white friends would look at you and go, "Yeah, I know it's not fair, but we're better than we were," and "I know it's not--you know, this isn't right, and we've got a long way to go, but we're better than we were," right? That was always the message that was sent to me. Today the flag is no longer aspirational. The flag is a symbol to be obeyed, and if you don't obey it, you're un-American, you're a traitor, you don't deserve anything, and that is a fundamental shift. And that is a fundamental shift that I would point back to 9/11. And so when you start looking at what this country is, if the attitude is "If you do not obey, then you are a traitor," then what does that mean for black people, where the rules and the laws have needed to be changed just to give you a shot at what we call the American Dream? It puts us in an incredibly difficult position and, in a lot of ways, a position where--you hear what the president has done along the Kaepernick story, which is to essentially say "Well, maybe he doesn't belong here." It's to say that you aren't American. It's a very dangerous place.Zach: Well, you're absolutely right, and going back a second, I know one thing--one thing that trips me out is when folks say, you know, "We're not what we were. We've come a long way." It's like, "Look, if where you started was y'all can't sit at a lunch table with us, y'all can't use the bathroom with us, and now we can... that's not a long way," and, you know, it's almost like if your team was--I feel like Bomani Jones said this example, like, years ago. Like, if your team was, like, 0-16 last year and now y'all are, like, 2-14, it's like... there's been progress, but is that really something that we want to celebrate? Like, we still have--we have so much further to go that why are we even talking about this? Let's just continue--Howard: And also do I consider it progress because you're willing to treat me like a human being? What did I actually earn?Zach: That part.Howard: What have I done? I mean, what has been earned here? What has been gained? So this conversation isn't between you and me. This conversation is between you and you, you know? This conversation is between you not giving me rights and you creating a culture that denied my rights and you relenting a tiny bit so now I get a little bit of rights, but my situation hasn't really changed. This is between you and the mirror. Zach: So in your book you talk about the role that fear played in NFL players not supporting Kaepernick in his protest, right? And this was interesting to me in real-time, because I am--I'm a younger professional. I can't say I'm young, Howard, 'cause I'm 30. So I'm not, like, young, but you know what I mean. Like, I'm younger.Howard: Yeah, you're pretty young.Zach: I'm pretty young, right? So I'm moving around, and this was a few years ago, so I'm in my mid-20s, and I'm looking at all this in real-time and I'm like, "Dog, these guys got--these are millionaires, right? Why are they not--you know, they have acc--" In my mind, 'cause I'm--again, I'm in my mid-20s. I'm making, like, I don't know, like, 60, $70,000, so I'm a quote-unquote "average guy," and I'm confused because I'm trying to figure out why it is that they're not speaking up, but in your essay you highlight some of the differences between, like, power and money. Can we talk about that a little bit more? Because I think it's easy for folks to presume that if you have money you naturally have some amount of power.Howard: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that what we've got here--there's a couple of things that take place, right? And you can think about this as aspirational and think about it as progress, or you can assess it in any way that you'd like, but the question that I've been asking myself is--sports is the only industry that I can think of, and that includes music and entertainment, where there is famous men and famous women who are labor but still make millions of dollars. Tom Hanks makes $20 million per picture. Samuel L. Jackson, you know, $20 million per picture, and so--you know, Scarlett Johansson it's $15 million per picture, however much she makes per movie. So these are enormous, ball player-level sums of wealth, but sports is the only occupation that I can think of where we have this assumption or this instinct that management and the front office is supposed to resemble the workforce. It really is curious in that way, because if you look at farming, and you go fly out to California, there's a whole bunch of brown, Mexican strawberry pickers out there, and nobody is looking at them and saying, "Well, damn, the workforce is 70% or 80% Latino. How come the management isn't 70 or 80% Latino?" If you go to a strip club, there's a whole bunch of women out there making a whole bunch of money for the building, but nobody is saying, "Well, how come the women don't run the business?" But we do in sports. You know, 80% black men in the NBA, 70% black men in the NFL, and we say, "Well, why aren't they running the show too?" And the reason to me is the enormous over-estimation of money. It's because they make so much money we think they have power, but they're still just labor. They're incredibly well-compensated labor, but they're still labor, and sports is the one place, you know, where we over-estimate money, and we recognize, when we get to situations like Kaepernick's or you get to situations like hiring and you recognize, "Oh, there's a limitation to the money," that they're still paying you to provide a service to them. You're still a worker. You're still labor. There isn't, in their mind, the expectation that that's gonna translate into a pathway to management or ownership. It doesn't work that way, and I think people are finding out the hard way. Like, for example, you had asked me earlier the reason for the title "Full Dissidence," and the title, you know, simply comes from this feeling of recognizing that, you know what, it's not gonna necessarily happen for me the way they've told me if I do all these right things, and I think the NFL coaches are sort of having that full dissidence moment in their occupation. They're realizing that no matter, you know, how many Rooney Rules you have or how many assistant coaching jobs and how much experience I have that "that pathway may not exist for me," and I think from a working labor, occupational standpoint, it's a cold bucket of water in the face.Zach: I agree, of course. I think it's interesting because we have been--I know that I was, by my teachers, by black, brown, and white folks alike, that, you know, if you're good enough you can out-perform racism. You can out-perform--Howard: Yeah, exactly. Bomani brought up that point as well, that nobody has ever out-performed racism.Zach: And that, you know, if you get enough dollars, that financial capital will eventually translate into some form of white capital that you can, you know, leverage to get--Howard: To get a seat at the table. I remember when I was working on The Heritage I had a fantastically honest and frank conversation with Al Sharpton about this. So we're in his office in New York, and we're talking about this, and, you know, it's a despairing conversation in some ways because you're realizing, "Okay, well, where is the pathway?" And I finally said to him--I said, "Well, you know, Rev, maybe Michael Jordan had it right. Maybe, you know, for all the criticism that Michael Jordan gets, maybe Michael Jordan realized, even though he is an owner, you know, he recognizes that there's not an open pathway to ownership and you're not necessarily gonna get a seat at the table, so maybe the goal is to simply get as much money as you possibly can, that money is the one thing that they're willing to give you. They're not gonna share the power, but they will give you the cash. So maybe you should work on getting as much of that as you can, and that's gonna buy you at least the individual and the family freedom to live a better life." And Sharpton said, "Well, you're right, you're right... but you're still a coward. Even though you may be right, that still makes you a coward." [Zach laughs] Zach: I'ma keep it a bean with you, 'cause I was talking to my people, right? And I just said--I said, "Dog, Howard Bryant is a real one, dog. Like, he's out--" And you're right, you're right. You were saying that you were just doing your job. You were just doing your job by going out there and reporting the facts, but doggone it, man, you was looking like Fred Hampton in these streets, man. Like, you were the only--Howard: Well, and that shows you where we're at though. It says less about me and more about us.Zach: Yeah, the system. No, you're absolutely right. I do feel like we're able to see the capitalistic jig really clear in sports, but do you believe that it's exclusive to sports, or do you think that, like, the patterns that we see in terms of how these systems are all--how they work together in certain ways transcends just, like, the sporting arena?Howard: No. I think that--one of the reasons why I did Full Dissidence was because there's so much overlap that you needed to pull outside of sports, that what was happening in sports is the exact same thing that's happening in the culture, and the difference is--the reason why it was important to pull some of these ideas out of sports is because people treat sports like it's the toy department. They don't treat it seriously, but yet if you took some of these exact same ideas and brought them into the workplace, into the corporate, into the white collar, then people might look at them differently, and people might view it as, "Oh, now this is serious." You know, the reason why you don't look at it very seriously in sports is because 1. sports is entertainment for a bunch of people, and 2. we dismiss sports because the players make so much money. So it's almost as if "Well, because they make money, they can't have any grievance, any gripes, any concerns, any thoughts, any contributions." So absolutely I think that things are overlapping each other, and one of the most important ways that they're overlapping is the way that the corporate side and the military side know how important sports is because you've got so many bazillion channels on TV now. You've got so many different ways that the culture is separated. Sports is the one place where everybody's watching the same thing. You watch the Super Bowl, you still got 100 million eyeballs on one event, and you don't--it's not The Tonight Show anymore, you know? Or it's not the old days where everybody's watching MASH or Happy Days or All in the Family, but when it comes to sports people are still watching, so they know that's where the eyeballs are. So sports becomes actually more important. There's a reason why, when you're watching the NFL, you see all of the flags and the fly-overs and the military and all that, because the military is actively using sports as a recruiting tool because there are so many people looking at it.Zach: So you talked about 2008. That was certainly a pivotal year. I think about 2008, and I also think about 2016, right? You had the end of an era with Obama, of this [sarcastically] post-racial utopia, and this--Howard: Which it wasn't.Zach: [laughs] Thank you for--I appreciate that, because there will be folks, Howard, who won't pick up on the sarcasm, so thank you.Howard: Mm-hmm.Zach: And then we had the formal election of Trump, right? And Kaepernick was in the forefront in the concept of his protest, the ongoing discussions about policing--a lot of those discussions came more in the center. Ta-Nehisi Coates and his writing also became more, like, actual talking points. Like, it was an interesting year for black folks, and as someone who is in professional services as a consultant, I can say that you could really see the tone of the workplace shifting too because, again, we don't live compartmentalized lives, right? Like, you know, you just talked about sports permeating and everyone looking at it, and even if you're not a sports fan, those topics are becoming more and more mainstream, and I believe that all of these things came together, and even just the tone--just the way that black and brown folks were working and showing up and even, like, topics around diversity and inclusion, they changed, right? Like, those conversations became more on the forefront. You talked about a conversation you had with Reverend Al Sharpton. Can we talk about any other shifts that you've been seeing--you know, again, we talked about even your appearance on different shows and things of that nature. Do you feel as if you've felt shifts as a black journalist dealing with either white journalists or other black journalists as it comes to concepts around dissidence?Howard: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, and I think that the problem that you have in sports is that sports has been telling you one of the biggest lies for pretty much all of our lives, that sports is the place of the meritocracy, sports is the antidote to racism, that it doesn't make a difference if you're black or white, it doesn't make a difference if you're Latino or Asian. If my score beats your score, I win, and that's the American Dream right there, right? That's why sports was at the center of integration, you know? If black people can fight in a war, how come they can't hit a baseball? Right? And whoever's got the fastest 40 time or the fastest 100 time, they win. There's your meritocracy, and yet you find out in sports, when you look at what's been taking place in this business, that it's really no different from anywhere else, and I think that the hard part that people of color, you know, especially black people find in the workforce is they're finding that that shift is hitting them directly, and it's hitting them in places where they may not have anticipated. I'm very nervous for your generation. I'm very concerned about young, black professionals in the business today, for some of them whose first election was Obama, you know? That was the first year they were eligible to vote, and the expectations that they have, and even the elites, you know? The black students who are going to the Ivy League schools and to the Harvards and also to the Dukes and the Stanfords and the rest of these--you know, Vanderbilt and these other elite schools, and then they get into the workforce, and then they find out that things haven't changed, that they thought they were different. They thought that these old ideas didn't apply to them because we had treated the Obama election as such a demarcating line, and in retrospect it turns out to have not been such a demarc--in fact, what it did was it was a retrenchment. It was a reminder historically that whenever black people receive some form of victory, the backlash is harsh and swift and very severe and very clear, and in discovering that, I wonder what your generation and what that generation of black professionals, how they're gonna deal with it, this expectation of equality, this expectation that they are going to be that first black generation where merit actually does count. And then you find out in the corporate world, you walk in, and whether we're talking about sports with the Selig Rule or the Rooney Rule or the lack of black college coaches, or then you walk into the white collar world and you realize who's getting promoted and who's not and the diversity and inclusion initiatives and all of that, and you do have to ask yourself the same question over and over again, and that is if you need a policy to tell your bosses to even--not even hire, but just to interview people, you've got major, major, major problems, and you're not anywhere near as ahead as you think you are. Zach: Howard, and that's why--and, you know, I'm not a sports journalist, right? So I would say I am a casual consumer of sports, but that's--the Rooney Rule, just from, like, a human capital, change management--'cause that's my space, right? So just from, like, a business perspective, I found the Rooney Rule to be disingenuous at its heart, because it's like, "Okay, you're just saying that we have to interview people." I don't believe that correlates to you actually hiring more people, and we have tons of evidence--and, like, it's like the Rooney Rule continues to come up every handful of years about, you know, how effective is it really, and yet we haven't changed it. But it's like, "You creating some formal rules to interview typically black men for these coaching roles doesn't actually address the heart of the matter, which is that you don't inherently see these individuals as leaders of people."Howard: The question is, for the corporate world, and I've asked this question numerous times when I do these types of stories, are you grooming me to replace you? Because if you're not grooming me to replace you, then all of this is performative. Do you look at me and are you willing to have me be the face of your institution? You know, that is not a hard question to answer, but it's a very hard question to acknowledge, because the answer is generally no. I have made this argument to people, and people don't like it because, you know, they think it's too political because they don't want to confront their own history, but you can just look it up. It's not hard. I've always told people that if you are anti-big government you are anti-black, and people say, "No, no. I'm just a libertarian." And I'd say, "No," which is also my way of being direct, because anti-big government is a clear Republican platform. Whether you're black or white, if you are a Republican who supports the shrinking of government, chances are you're a racist. And why would I say that? I say that because historically, if you look at hiring patterns since the end of World War II, the federal government built the middle class, the black middle class. The federal government, you know, in terms of hiring, in terms of civil service jobs, the federal government built the black middle class, and as you start to shrink those positions, you shrink the black middle class. Whether you're doing it by design or whether indirectly, the end result is the same, and what I'm getting at here, for your space, is that the private, corporate sector still does not routinely and prominently hire and promote black people. It still doesn't, and so if you're going to cut the number of government jobs, whether it's state, whether it's federal, post office, whatever you want to call it, you are actively crushing the black middle class. This is the reason why these diversity and inclusion initiatives are so important, because this corporate world is not making those hires, and because they're not making those hires and because they can't be compelled to make those hires, you are at the mercy of what you may what you want to call progress or what we know to be lack of progress. So at some point--like, for example, you know, I went--and I think there's an anecdote... yes, there's an anecdote in the book about this, that I was at a diversity and inclusion event in Boston, and all of these CEOs sat down, and it was amazing. The first panel had a group of really well-prepared women making their pitches about, you know, some of their initiatives they're working on, and they were all so prepared, and it was crazy because they were incredibly polite. So they were incredibly well-dressed. They knew this was a shot to be on a major stage talking to major players in their industry at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston. And they didn't interrupt each other, and they all did their presentations, and it was--you know, I understood it. It made sense. And then the next panel were the CEOs, and it looked like a country club. They were all wearing their suits, but they weren't necessarily--I don't even know if they were ironed. I mean, they just showed up because they're the bosses. They were in charge. Some of them wore ties and some of them didn't. They did not look at this like they were showing to this audience of black and brown women, you know? They weren't. It was very chummy. And they sat down, and they yucked it up with each other, and they cracked jokes and interrupted each other, because they were the bosses. They were in charge. And one of the most remarkable things that came across this entire event was when one of them talked about diversity and inclusion and promotions and talked about how it was easier for them to promote white men, because if white men in their offices didn't get jobs they were gonna make the biggest noise. They were gonna complain the most. They were gonna be the most disruptive. And the black women and the white women in the business were less likely to complain, which made it easier to pass them over for jobs. And it was a stunning, absolutely stunning, admission at a diversity and inclusion seminar.Zach: At an actual--targeted for this particular space.Howard: Exactly. Here was the beauty of this, which was obviously heartbreaking and painful, but it was the beauty of it. It was said so matter of factly that they didn't even know what they were admitting. They were essentially admitting that "No, we're not--" You know, "We'd like to hire you, but we know--" Because they were taking the path of least resistance. If I promote this guy or this woman, then this guy's gonna complain and be disruptive, so I might as well give him the promotion so at least I can have harmony. I can have the appearance at least of order. It's essentially almost like the corporate indictment of Martin Luther King, Jr. [?] white moderate, "order over justice." As long as nobody's mad and nobody says anything, everything's cool. And it's like, "No, wait a minute. You're contributing to this by having no courage. And by the way, if you're the boss and you've got a disruptive employee, he's insubordinate. You've got the power to do something about that." And that's the reason why that chapter in the book is called The Mediocre White Boy, because these guys are protecting each other at the expense of your advancement.Zach: Man. You know, your book collects a series of pieces, all of them powerful. The bylines of many of them I read was this concept of, like, self-erasure, right? So there were multiple instances where athletes would say, you know, "I'm not black, I'm this," or "I'm not anything, I'm just me," and, you know, I see a similar pattern for well-to-do black professionals, like, executives. I've literally met folks who will say, "Well, I'm not just black. I'm also a tennis player." [laughs] Or "I'm just me," you know? "That's part of who I am, but I'm a complex person," or--Howard: One of the biggest problems that we have in business and when we talk about ourselves is the idea of what blackness is, and we do this to ourselves, and when we do it to ourselves, then that gives white people license to do it ten times worse to us. And when you watch, you know, film, and you watch Hollywood and you watch everything, they essentially assume there's one black experience, because we attack each other so often on authenticity. And, you know, one of the reasons why I did this book was because I felt like there was an opportunity to talk about certain elements of the black experience that never get discussed. I mean, one of the beauties of Ta-Nahesi Coates' writing is that he writes very specifically about a very specific black experience, his experience, you know, in Baltimore and as a professional, and he writes about being black in black communities. The same is true for a bunch of other writers, but one of the areas that we never really talk about is that post-1960s, post-1950s aspirational, you know, black families who made that decision--the same decision that white people made, whether it was white flight or black flight--that "I'm going to take my kids out of the black community and move them into the white spaces." And what happened to those black kids who grew up immediately and always as the only black kid in class? You're the only black kid in the first grade. You're the only black kid in the twelfth grade. You essentially live in a world of whiteness, and why are we asking you to live in this world of whiteness? For education. Your parents are doing this for you. They're doing this because--like, in my case, when we left Boston, we were trading the physical violence of a tough, tough neighborhood for the emotional violence of being the only black kid in a room full of white people. So eventually as that toll begins to mount on you, you enter these white corporate spaces, and you recognize very quickly the price of being black and the anti-blackness that you're surrounded by. And sometimes you hear, or a lot of times this becomes the price for you to advance - not to be black, not to talk about being black, not to be proud of being black. You hear black people say this all of the time. "Well, I don't want to be a black writer. I just want to be a writer who happens to be black." What on earth does that mean? "I'm not a black doctor. I'm a doctor that happens to be black." And what you're really saying is that "I can't carry this anymore. I don't want to carry this, because if I carry this with me I may not advance and I gotta answer questions I don't feel like answering." And you see it in sports especially where sort of this deal is they're going to trade your blackness for money, okay? "We're gonna pay you millions of dollars, but we don't want you talking about issues that are important to black people." So I began to think about this in two of the chapters. One is called "The Worst Thing in the World" and the other one is called "The Lost Tribe of Integration," which is that when I started thinking about the arc of my own life, that the arc is that your life will improve the faster and quicker you get away from black people. If you get away from the black community, your schools get better. If you get away from talking about black issues, then you're not a troublemaker at work anymore, you know? If you don't advocate for black people, then people will look at you and tell you that you've transcended race, as if looking in the mirror is something that you should not want. Zach: You know, what's really interesting about that is even in the diversity and inclusion, like, corporatized space--and I've noticed this as me as a black man, like, the more that I'm able to say things like, "It's not just about race and ethnicity, it's also about diversity of thought--" If even in the space that was supposedly built so that we can have equity for black and brown people and historically marginalized and oppressed groups--even in this space, if I, in my rhetoric, in my general language, if I eschew ethnicity, that is also [?]--Howard: If you advocate directly for black people, you are putting your entire career in danger. And I say this now, and people look at me, and they don't like to hear it, but I'll say it now, I'll say tomorrow, and I said it yesterday - diversity is anti-blackness, because what we're really talking about here when you look at the statistics and when you look at the reasons for the Rooney Rule--you're not looking at the Rooney Rule because Asians are underrepresented, but when you're having your diversity and inclusion initiatives, especially if you're talking about technology--if we're going to Silicon Valley, you're not looking at the Middle-Eastern or the Indian or the Asian and say, "Gee, they're not advancing." What you're looking at is a white space that has no black people, and so many of these D&I initiatives began with black people. It was about black people. It was for black people. But when you do something directly for black people, people get offended. They get mad. They don't want to hear it. They feel like, "Well, what are you giving them special treatment for?" Because you gave us the special treatment of not letting us play. You've been giving us special treatment since we got here. It's just not the special treatment that is a positive special treatment. It's negative, but it's still special. So what has happened in these spaces now is to minimize the idea that you're giving black people special treatment, now you just talk about non-white male treatment. But non-white male treatment does not necessarily address the inequities for black people specifically. So D&I suddenly becomes hiring white women, and so white women--who are often part of the patriarchy, who are always second on the food chain, who can marry into wealth faster than everybody, and if you look at your statistics, marrying into wealth is still the fastest way to become wealthy. The most reliable way to become wealthy isn't going to college, it's to marry into it. So now when you start to look and your demographics change, now all of a sudden--we had 89% white men in a given position, now it's 69% white men in a given position, but it's 29% white women. What does that actually do for black people? So you've got your diversity, but you haven't helped black people. You haven't helped the people on the bottom who were supposedly the target of this initiative. But you've got your diversity, you know? You've got seven white men, two white women, and one--you know, one Asian man, but what does that do for the person on the bottom? It didn't help them at all, yet your numbers are different and you can say, "We've improved diversity by 30%," but what happens to me? You haven't helped me at all. Zach: So we typically have sound effects, Howard, but you've been so fire that I'm not even trying to, like, dilute what you've been saying. So do you ever imagine a world where marginalized communities collectively go full dissidence in their places of work? And, like, if so, what in your mind would that look like?Howard: Well, the answer's no because you've got to eat. I mean, the answer's no because eventually, you know, when you start looking at the actual numbers, the numbers tell you that--they're so overwhelming, that there's only a few of us that are gonna be able to succeed, and so very few people are going to be willing to risk that. I mean, I look at myself and I look at the numbers and I say to myself, "There's nothing special about me," and then you look at the actual number of black people who have my job and you go, "Oh. On second thought, there is something special," because you're one of the few people who actually has a platform, who actually has a chance to say something.Zach: Howard, man. I'm serious. I'm telling you, man. I'm not joking. When you got up on there and you started talking like that, me and all of my friends were like, "Yo... this is gonna be the last time we see this dude up here." [laughs]Howard: Exactly, right? But see, I look at it this way. ESPN hired me to do this. They didn't hire me to act like Bill Simmons or to act like Rick Reilly or to act like Stephen A. They said, "You go out and do what you do best." Now, obviously when you're gonna do this, when you're going to say these different things, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about "Do you want diversity of color or diversity of thought?" Normally, what a lot of corporations want is they want diversity of color, but they don't want diversity of thought because diversity of thought challenges them way too much. So what they would really like is they would like a gigantic, pretty rainbow of different colors who are all represented who all think the same way so the company's not challenged. I understand that part. I don't always subscribe to that part, because as a journalist, you're asking me to represent people who don't have the opportunity to speak, and so I try to do that. That's part of the job, or at least it was part of the job and it should always be part of the job. So the issue is, to answer your question, what needs to happen and how do I envision that? What does that look like? Well, how it looks to me is I think it's more of a mental liberation than a physical one. I think to me, when I think about full dissidence as an idea--and I think I end the book with it--is it's the recognition that you can find your own living space and not let people lie to you or not feel like you have to buy in. You've got to be willing to see through what's happening right now. Look at what's happening to your situation, and then you need to discover your own strategies to find your own peace within it. But the problem that I see is the number of black people in the business who were so [?] and so happy that they get in that they buy into it and they think they're different and they're like, "Okay, everything's changed," and then they get punched in the face. And then they get punched in the face and they had their hands down, and what I'm trying to say is if you're gonna navigate this environment, navigate the environment, but make sure your hands are up and know that punch is coming, because that punch always comes. Ask your parents. Ask your grandparents. That punch always comes. So what you're really asking me in some ways, whether you're doing it directly or not or intentionally or not, is do I see white people changing so there's no need for this, and the answer is no, I don't see that. What I see--and that's one of the reasons why in the book I say it's not a survival guide, it's simply what I see--what I see is the necessity for black people to hold on to their blackness, to keep it and to not trade it and not sacrifice it under this idea that "If I do the right things and if I say the right things I'm gonna get accepted as an American," because it hasn't happened yet, you know? That's the big thing for me, that you look at the--you know, you go watch a movie like Gloria or go read the history of, you know, black participation in warfare, that if you fight for your country or if you win the medals or if you build the charter school or if you, you know, give the money to whatever foundation, that you are finally gonna get accepted, and it goes back to what you were saying. It's that whole idea of outperforming racism. I guess the best way to say it is--what is full dissidence? Full dissidence is the recognition that you cannot outperform racism. That's what it feels like to me.Zach: Man, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been incredible. Y'all, make sure y'all check out his--everything's in the show notes. The author, his name is Howard Bryant. The book is called Full Dissidence: Notes from an Uneven Playing Field. Make sure y'all check it out. This has been Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and we're on Google, man. Look, we're all on Al Gore's Internet, man. Livingcorporate.co, .us, .net. Howard, listen, man, we understand how theses SEOs work. We've got all the domains, Howard, except for LivingCorporate.com. Australia has that domain somehow. I don't know what's going on. We're gonna try to get it, but look, [Howard and Zach laugh] y'all make sure y'all hit us up. I can't thank you enough, Howard. Until next time, we'll catch y'all, man. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of chatting with FranklinCovey's Pamela Fuller in this episode themed around the topics of engagement and inclusion. She shares with us why she thinks that we're often talking about unconscious bias rather than just bias, and she also gives us a practical example of what it means to tie inclusion to performance. Listen to the full show to hear Pamela's definition of employee engagement and a whole lot more.Connect with Pamela on LinkedIn and Twitter!Find out more about FranklinCovey via their website or socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FacebookVisit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, we're back. It's Season 3. It's 2020. You know, you're probably riding in your hover jet or, you know, petting your cloned pig. I don't know what's happening in the future, but, you know, it's 2020 is my point. It's a new year, and, you know what we do. We have authentic conversations that center underrepresented voices in the corporate space--and corporate space is just another word for saying "work," so a 9-to-5 job. So underrepresented voices at work, that's what we do. We amplify those through having authentic conversations with black and brown executives, hiring partners, entrepreneurs, creatives, activists, artists, musicians. Like, anybody, right? And we're having, like, these evergreen conversations. Like, we're taking these evergreen topics rather, but we're centering them on black and brown / underrepresented perspectives, and we have, like, really great guests. Like, Season 1 we had some really incredible guests, Season 2 we had some really awesome guests, and Season 3 is no different. We have with us today Pamela Fuller with FranklinCovey. For more than 15 years, Pamela has worked in both the public and private sector supporting clients and solving complex problems. She currently serves as FranklinCovey's Thought Leader, Inclusion and Bias as well as a Global Client Partner responsible for supporting some of the organization’s most strategic accounts. Her solutions-oriented and client-centric approach has resulted in unique solutions that exceed client expectations and achieve results. Pamela works with clients to match the right solution to organizational strategic priorities and is particularly adept at designing tailored, competency-based programs to solve her client's most pressing needs. Through this work, Pamela has designed programs that have made an impact on hundreds of thousands--yo, hundreds of thousands--of participants to include FranklinCovey’s newest offering, Unconscious Bias: Understanding Bias to Unleash Potential. Prior to her current role, Pamela served as an EEO & Diversity Analyst and Trainer where she conceived and implemented proactive diversity programs to include human capital planning, training on unconscious bias and microaggressions, and statistical workforce analysis. She also served the non-profit community for nearly a decade, executing marketing, communications, special events and fundraising strategies. She is a highly sought-after consultant--I mean, come on, after everything I read, clearly she is a highly sought-after consultant--speaker and strategist, having addressed leaders across the world on leadership topics to include unconscious bias, high potential leadership and building an inclusive and effective culture to include the United Nations System, U.S. federal government and the Fortune 500. My, goodness. I mean, come on, y'all. Like, if that doesn't get you off your seats, if that don't get you paying attention to something, I mean... [ow sfx] Goodness. Pamela, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Pamela: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I am good. I don't know if you ever get used to hearing your bio read. I think there's a humility that we're all raised up with that makes that feel so strange. So, um, anyway, I'm just thrilled to be here and engage in this conversation.Zach: Man. You know, let's just get right into it, right? Like, a critical part of any conversation is language and clear definitions. I think, like, you know, the D&I space has been existing for a while, but I feel like that we're seeing a shift in the past handful of years where, I don't know, just the intention around the work is just that, more intentional. And so before we even get into this whole conversation, like, can we get your definition of inclusion and bias?Pamela: Absolutely. I think inclusion--as I think about inclusion, I think we know we're being successful with inclusion when it is a metric of performance. If everyone in the organization feels included, valued, respected, then they are able to perform at their best, and I think that's really important, that connection to performance, because quite often people talk about diversity and inclusion around sort of a moral responsibility or it being the right thing to do, and while I firmly believe all of those things, I think that a conversation about the right thing to do is not as compelling in an organization as the impact on performance. So yes, it's the right thing to do for lots of reasons. Ultimately as a business or an organization, the reason it's most important is to ensure that we are positioning everyone to perform, to meet whatever our goals or results are for the organization, and people can't do that if they feel inhibited or encumbered or disrespected or ignored or tolerated, right? So inclusion is a sense that everyone feels they can contribute their best selves and that they desire to do so, because if I'm not included I don't even want to give you my best ideas, right? And I think bias, as we talk about bias, we define bias at FranklinCovey and in our new offering around--we define it as a preference, a preference that we might have about a person or a place or a thing, a circumstance, and the word preference I think is really important to the definition, because when we think of bias we often think of it being inherently negative. We think biases of prejudice or a stereotype, and if it's inherently negative we get a little bit defensive about it. So people bring up bias and a lot of people in organizations, particularly people who don't feel like they've been on the receiving end of bias, might get really defensive. You know, "I don't have bias," or "I don't have prejudice. I don't have stereotypes. I sort of treat everyone fairly," but if we define it as a preference we speak to what bias really is. It's a natural part of the human condition, of how the brain works, and we have preferences that on their face don't have value, but they impact our behavior, and that behavior has a result that can be negative or positive. So bias is preferences we have about kinds of things, whether your desk is messy or gender or race, you know? Bigger, heavier issues, or the sorts of qualifications people have or where they went to school, where they're from in the country, all kinds of things, and that impacts how we interact with other people, how we handle circumstances, how we make decisions, and those decisions, or that impact, again goes back to performance. So I think that these terms are really valuable when we can tie them to performance, because that's the result of inclusion and bias.Zach: No, and I'm right there with you, right? I think so many times--let me take a step back. So I think premises, discussing premises is really important. So I do believe, in my experience and also from what I've read as well as conversations that I've had with other leaders, [that] a lot of times when we talk about diversity and inclusion it's framed around the comfort of the majority, right? So, like, just now when you framed inclusion around performance, that in itself is a differentiator--this is not even an ad for FranklinCovey by the way, y'all. This is not an ad. I'm just trying to shout--but, I mean, with respect, [laughing] it's a differentiator because with the tie-in to performance there's also, like, an underlying theme of accountability, right? Like, if I'm tying something to performance, I'm tying to something tangible and measurable, that means that there is an outcome that we're looking to achieve. I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion though specifically they are moreso tied to, like, feelings or, like you said, moral imperatives, and the reality is, like, the world operates today very exclusively. There are plenty of exclusive spaces, and there are plenty of systems that are built off of exclusivity. So I don't know if that angle of positioning as inclusion as, like, the right thing to do is going to win over the masses, because if the moral imperative was that strong and people really vibed with it, we wouldn't have all the work that we have to do. So it's interesting though, kind of on with the idea of inclusion, a popular definition of inclusion is being asked to dance at the party you were invited to, right? And people say it--I'm sure you hear it often, but people say it with such, like--I don't know, like it's just such a [swaggy?] thing to say, and I'm like, "Okay. I mean, it's cool," but can we talk a little bit about the role that power plays in inclusion? Like, do you think that you can have inclusion of underrepresented employees without granting them some authority within the organization that they operate?Pamela: Uh, no. [laughs] In short, right? But I think it sort of goes back to definition. So when we think about the moral imperative, there's a power dynamic in that as well, right? Because what we're saying if we say it's a moral imperative, we're sort of putting it in the same box as charity. Like, "This is a good will," right? "A charitable act that I will do for these underrepresented groups is to bring them into the conversation." So I think that's another reason I feel very strongly about reframing inclusion and bias around performance, because I think it's not a charity, right? There's an actual end result. There's whole populations we're leaving out of organizations, and that is detrimental to performance, because ultimately organizations cannot serve--you know, I do a lot of work in the federal space. The federal government cannot serve the American people if it's not reflective of the American people. That's a big, grandiose example, but the same is true of private sector. Your customers are reflective of a population or a demographic and you can't serve them if you don't reflect them. So I think that power is an important part of this, and another thing that we see as we work with organizations is that organizations are typically more diverse at the front line. It's difficult to get to diversity and inclusion in the senior ranks, and even as we look at the chief diversity officer or the office of diversity and inclusion or diversity, equity and inclusion, or even chief experience officer, right? I think corporations are going through a bit of a vanguard in terms of what that role is even called, but it's interesting to see where that person sits in an organization and where they report, and I think where they sit and where they report is a reflection of how strongly the organization feels about the value of diversity and inclusion efforts and their linked performance.Zach: Well, so where they sit, who they report to, and then also who they are, right? Like, who they actually choose to be in those positions.Pamela: Yeah, because I think that there is a bit of a--I don't know. There's a lot of talk about that across D&I professionals in terms of the identity of the person in that role and does it need to be someone from a marginalized group, and I also think there's a sentiment sometimes, particularly in highly technical organizations, that HR issues generally are people who are, like, not technical enough, and so there's not always a lot of respect in an organization given to the capability of that person who sits in the role, which again goes to your point about power, that if it's not a highly respected role, if it's not seen as highly valued, then the person is limited in the impact that they can make across the organization.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I remember a couple jobs ago I was working, and we had the black affinity group, right? And, you know, there were multiple different affinity groups, and each affinity group had a leader, and for all of the other groups, right, military, women, East Asian, LGBTQ, all the leaders were, like, senior managers or directors, right? So low- to mid-level senior leaders, but then for the African-American affinity group it was, like, an experienced hire. Like, someone who has been, you know, working for, like, four or five years. So off top you're like, "Okay, I don't--y'all don't care about this the same way that y'all care about these other spaces," you know what I mean?Pamela: Yeah, and it sort of violates best practice, right? So best practice around employee resource groups or affinity groups or business resource groups--again, sort of an evolution that organizations are going through, and each of those titles has a different contribution to make to the organization--but best practice across any of those structures is that there be executive sponsorship of the group and that the person who is the executive sponsor isn't necessarily part of the group, because there's research that shows that, when we look at diversity and inclusion efforts, if women and people of color are elevating those efforts and pushing them forward, if people in a marginalized group are pushing them forward, it can actually hurt their career over the long-term, because it seems self-serving, right? It seems like, you know, "I'm a black woman, I'm a Latino woman, and, like, we need more diversity in the senior ranks," right? [laughs] It seems like I'm saying, "Hire me," where as when a white man does that same sort of advocacy for issues of diversity and inclusion it seems benevolent, right? Because they don't actually--at least on its face, they don't have anything to gain from that advocacy. So one of the best practices for impacting any sort of whatever the structure is, affinity group, employee resource group or business resource group, is to have an executive sponsor who's not a member of the group so you sort of counteract this research, right? You have an advocate who's not part of the group and who, you know, for lots of reasons is sort of more trusted at the executive level because it doesn't seem self-serving. Zach: And to that point, I think when you talk about inclusiveness--and we've talked about, on Living Corporate, sponsorship and mentorship in the past. Like, to me, like, that's the biggest opportunity strategically, and then just organizationally, when you talk about, like, the next step when it comes to employee resource groups. Right now it's like these ERGs are spaces where others are able to kind of cluster together and either be kind of, like, other with themselves or just kind of be out of the way, but it puts responsibility on underrepresented employees. It fully charges black and brown, LGBTQ, disabled, it fully charges non-white men, non-straight, white men, to be in charge of their own inclusion efforts, right? Like, we're not really connecting the dots between the folks who actually have authority, access, and power with these underrepresented folks. I often see these groups kind of just operate autonomously, almost like they're an island in of themselves as opposed to them being connected to this larger organizational strategy. Is that something that you've seen often, or do you--like, are you seeing a shift in how these ERGs engage and work within the larger leadership structure?Pamela: I see that as well, and I think--you know, I don't see necessarily, like, a wave of engagement in the larger leadership structure. I think some organizations are just better at it than others for lots of--you know, it's either a longer-standing program or sort of the people at play or there are executives who have made it their business to be a part of these groups. I think one of the challenges with employee resource groups is the burden, as you've highlighted, sits with the population, and even the effort that they put towards it, right? Like, we are all in the workplace. We have--you know, everyone I speak to across public and private sector, you know, small, medium, large companies, multi-national companies, everyone is doing two jobs. Everyone is over-worked, and there's just not enough hours in the day. So then you look at demographics for underrepresented groups in corporate structures, and you're thinking, "Wow," and we've, got, like a handful of our high-performers putting additional effort and energy towards making these employee resource groups meaningful, which feels a bit counter-intuitive, right, when you're trying to sort of close the gap and accelerate in the leadership ranks. So I think employee resource groups need to be a part of a larger strategy, because they do serve a purpose. I mean, when I look--so in our program, and to your point not a plug, but just an example that I think--an illustration that I think might be helpful when you think about this is we do an exercise around a network audit and just sort of looking at your network and doing an audit of your personal and professional network in terms of who you choose to go to, like, when you have a problem or when you have a new project or when you're seeking coaching or mentorship about a specific issue, and when I do that activity for myself, I notice that my personal network is very reflective of me. I mean, it's, like, women of color who are college-educated, often have a higher degree, have an MBA, and are sort of in fast-paced jobs, sort of big jobs, and on paper we look very similar, and that serves a purpose. That's valuable for me for my own sense of belonging and sort of ensuring that I'm navigating things the right way and sharing my personal experience and the challenges I have that are specifically related to my role as a working mother of two brown boys in America, right? My professional network is much more diverse. There are many more men in my professional network. There are men in higher-level positions. There are also women. There's a lot more geographic diversity, because FranklinCovey is a global company and because I've worked and lived in other states outside of Washington, D.C., where I currently live--or Virginia, I should say, just outside of D.C., and so I think that--and when I look at that I ask the question, "Where do I have opportunity? Where do I have opportunity to expand my network, both for my own sense of sort of professional growth and development and belonging and inclusion as well as, you know, for the benefit of my network?" And so I think ERGs serve a purpose. Like, it's valuable for me to have a network that is reflective of me, because sometimes, you know, you don't have to explain things. You can say, like, "This happened," and people in your network who reflect you say, "Oh, I know. When that happens, this is what I've done," you know? Where as when people are different then there's a little bit more effort that you have to put in. You have to explain your perspective or explain why that might be problematic or ask the question differently. So I think they serve a purpose. It's valuable to have that network, and we see that organizations who don't have those sorts of networks really struggle to retain diverse talent and to promote diverse talent, but it can't be the only thing, right? Organizations have to have a multi-pronged strategy that doesn't put the burden only on those people to build a network for themselves. So there needs to also be some formal mentoring and coaching opportunities in place. There needs to be engagement of the majority in minority efforts. There needs to be formal leadership development opportunities and, you know, rotational assignments for people, and surveys that indicate what people's experience is, and then response to that survey data, right? Most organizations do do sort of employee engagement surveys. They don't necessarily respond to what they hear and try to bridge those gaps. So I think when ERGs are the organization's only strategy, that's a problem, but as part of a larger strategy I've seen them be really effective, 'cause there's a purpose that that serves, and it's valuable.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I think the challenge is that for so many organizations ERGs is, like, the beginning and end of their DE&I strategy, right? Like, it's "Okay, we set these things up for y'all to be different over there. So have your happy hours, let us know what the budget it--you've got about $600 for the year--and enjoy yourself," right? [both laugh]Pamela: You can buy one bottle of wine.Zach: Get your one bottle of wine and celebrate your one promotee and enjoy, right? [laughs] But jokes aside--and that really wasn't a joke, but pessimistic commentary aside--[laughs]Pamela: [laughs] Skepticism aside.Zach: Yes, yes, yes. It's interesting because I think what that doesn't also account for is, like, the emotional labor that goes into, like, one even just being a part of an ERG, but then two working and trying to build one up, right? So like you said, we all have these full-time jobs. I'm a consultant, and so it's like, "Okay, I'm already working on the billable engagement, then I have some additional work that I'm doing to, like, sell something else," and then maybe I'm even working on a whitepaper or some research or something else, and then on top of that you want me to lead a whole ERG? Or you want me to participate in one? Like, even participating, right, I think it's really easy--and I had a conversation with some colleagues some months ago, and they were talking about "Well, we're going to judge ERG engagement by how many people show up to events," and I was trying to explain--I was like, "Well, wait a minute. That can't be your only measure for judging engagement or participation, because some people may just--honestly if you just sent out an email once a month with, like, some type of professional tip or did some type of blogging series, or--like, there are people who maybe just like to observe. They might not necessarily want to show up physically and hang around and hang out after a whole week-long of work," because even showing up in spaces where we're the majority can sometimes be performative, 'cause we don't know everybody. Like, "I don't know you." Like, yes, you and I both might be black, but we're not a monolith. Like, I still need to build up trust, and that in itself can be an emotional exercise. So how do we--you know, how do we account for the labor that's involved in just being present in these spaces, right? I'm already exhausted from being present everywhere else, so now I'm going to be present here? This is going to be positive, but we need to make sure that we're accounting for that effort, because it is an effort. It's not just automatic. I think it's really easy, outside looking in, just to think that everybody wants to just pop up to everything or do a happy hour or do insert-whatever-activity it is when it's like, "Man, you know, honestly I would just benefit from somebody just sending me a note," or "I would just benefit from a phone call or just listening on a conference call or," like, again, reading a newsletter. I don't necessarily know if I need to, like, be physically present somewhere on top of all of the things that I'm doing for me, right? Again, I'm not dismissing the reality that these events are great, they can be, but everybody's different and, you know, I've yet to talk to one black person, black or brown person at work, who hasn't, like, significantly dealt with some B.S. at their job that they're actively trying to manage through and smile through, so, like, when you think about that kind of stuff, and then now I gotta kind of do this other thing, it can just kind of be a bit much, you know what I mean?Pamela: Yeah, I agree. And I think personality-wise--so it's hard because, you know, understanding the value that ERGs play and how they are helpful for some people and then, like, being personally an introvert, it's a little bit hard for me. [both laugh] To go back to something I said earlier, they just need to be part of a more holistic strategy, and even I guess how they run. Like, so many times companies are using the term employee resource group and it really is an affinity group. It's a club. And there's sort of a--there's a cliqueyness that can come from clubs that is not helpful. So I think--I believe really strongly in meaningful connection. I think that sometimes the D&I community can sort of become a little bit insular in terms of how it thinks about--you know, you sort of get a group of D&I professionals together and they're like, "This is the answer," right? Because we've seen, you know, it's a decades-old profession, and we haven't seen monumental, humongous shifts in representation, right? So there's a list of best practices, and I think the D&I community--you know, myself included as part of it--it's like we latch onto these things and say, "Well, let's do this," but there is--like, each organizational structure is really different, and it's important to take into account what is gonna work in the organization to solve those specific challenges. I think, you know, we look at, like, Lean Six Sigma, and it's a process that you can apply to processes, you know, process improvement. It's a mechanism you can apply to process improvement to find efficiencies across any number of processes. I don't think diversity and inclusion is the same in terms of, like, having sort of one process that can be applied to everything. I think understanding the organizational culture and context is really important, and then understanding what the people at the organization want is really important. So I think ERGs have their purpose, but I also think I guess in the measure of that it's important to do some evaluation around, like, is this an affinity group, and do the people who are a part of it want it to be an affinity group, or do they want it to be more of an employee resource group that is focused more on mentoring, coaching, and sponsorship? Or more sort of meaningful connection versus safe space, right? I think affinity groups are like safe space. Come to this thing, this happy hour, or here's this sort of best practices or, like, who to go to for what. Employee resource groups are more building your network and influence across an organization, sponsorship, coaching, mentoring, sort of an intense focus on promotion and leadership development, and then business resource groups are very tied to strategy, right? How are we--like, is this, the black business resource group, the BRG, going to, you know, build us a nwe customer channel or a new revenue stream, right, based on their connection to the company? So I think organizations are not always clear on, like, what it is they're actually setting up and is that in alignment with the participants and what they're looking for. I just think it takes some extra work, right? It's easy to say, "Let's set up these things." It's harder to say, "Let's do some analysis around what kind of thing we need to set up and what it needs to do."Zach: You know what? I don't think that I've had any conversations with anyone really--let me take that back, I've had one conversation with someone who has--like, in private, and we were talking off the mic about the difference between an ERG and a BRG, but I don't know if I've ever had someone really articulate the difference between these different groups. I think that a lot of times what I'm seeing is that we're just using these terms interchangeably, right? Like, without any type of thoughtful definition as to what they mean, 'cause I can say that, like, there's one huge tech organization that uses affinity group, and they're doing way more than another tech organization that I know that is using the term BRGs, right? But I just gotta give you a Flex bomb, 'cause I've never heard someone, like, just very simply explain why those terms mean different things and why they matter. So hold on one second. Come on, Sound Man. Drop it for me right here. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? That's a DJ Flex bomb. Do you know Funkmaster Flex?Pamela: Yeah. I like it. I'll take it.Zach: I appreciate it. No problem.Pamela: It's like I've won the podcast. [both laughing]Zach: This has actually been a very, like, sound effect-light podcast, but, you know what, we're gonna pick it up here. So let's do this. Let's talk about diversity within the context of inclusion. In your opinion, can an organization be inclusive and not be diverse? Like, is a white boys' club inclusive?Pamela: I mean, I think this is the age-old diversity of thought discussion. So organizations will say, you know, "We don't look very diverse. Like, on our face we all look the same, but we have so much diversity of thought. We all look at things really differently," and I think--I mean, diversity of thought exists across everyone. Like, there's a reality to we're all individuals who are bringing our own contribution to the table, but I did--so I used to work at the U.S. Department of Defense, and I was facilitating, years ago, this senior executive diversity seminar. So it was a group of senior executives from various agencies because DOD is a big agency with a lot of subordinate agencies within it. So it wasn't people who were working together every day. They were, like, in different places across DOD, and we're facilitating this conversation around diversity and inclusion. It's a couple-day seminar, multi-day seminar. And one of the participants--I will never forget this--stood up. It was a woman. And she said, "For whatever diversity that exists across this group of people," like, whatever identity, diversity exists--and it was pretty diverse gender-wise with, like, one or two black and brown people, but otherwise didn't... you know, they were all about the same age, and everyone seemed like they were able-bodied, at least from my--you know, from what I could see, but she said, "For whatever identity and diversity exists in this group, we're all actually exactly the same person." She said, "If you lined up our resumes, there's sort of a path to becoming a senior executive at the Department of Defense. So we've all, for the most part, had prior military service, and we were all willing to move all over the world to serve in our next post," which is sort of, you know, a thing that's important at the DOD, and she sort of rifled through some things and said, you know, "We've all gone to this sort of handful of institutions, right? Naval Academy, West Point. We all probably maybe started--" A big part of DOD is the recruitment happens in the southeastern U.S., right? So we're all, like, from--she just sort of railed through these things about all of the ways that they were the same, and I think that it was a really just interesting thought in the room around, like, how an organization, as a huge organization, how does the DOD, like, build and grow leaders? They often do so, like many organizations, you sort of build and grow leaders one way, and it's the way that's worked before, so you replicate that, right? You know, you hired an engineer for this role and the engineer did really well, and then you look at the job responsibilities and you decide, "Well, they must have an engineering degree to do this well," even though the job responsibilities don't necessarily require the engineering degree. But then, you know, for the rest of eternity it requires the engineering degree, right? So I think that organizations lean in to what they can attest to, right? What they can say they have. I think inclusivity is about behavior, and so I do think the organization can be inclusive, can behave in a way where everyone feels respected, valued and included, they feel like they can [tie?] to performance, but I would push further to say, "But do those behaviors really exist if it's not a diverse workforce?" Because it means that there's some bar of entry, right?Zach: Right, stated or otherwise.Pamela: Yeah, stated or otherwise. Like, and I think organizations will say, "Well, we're based in Iowa, and it's not that diverse," or, like, "We're a family company, and so we're sort of small and, you know, we're just word-of-mouth," and my question is always, you know, "What is the opportunity?" Right? I did some work in rural Minnesota [laughing] a few months ago, and I was like--I thought it was in, like, the Twin Cities, in Minneapolis, and then, like, two days before they were like, "Okay, when you land we need to pick you up, and it's a 5-hour drive north." I was like, "Oh, my God. We're going to Canada." [both laugh] Like, I was not prepared for that, but it was really fascinating because I had a perception of what it's like to live in rural Minnesota and that it was probably predominantly white people, but there's several large Indian tribes. There's a growing, like, Somali population in the state of Minnesota generally. There's, like, this sort of large [?] Chinese enclave and I think a Vietnamese population, right? So during the course of this session that I was delivering and this conversation we were having, I could easily imagine an organization based in rural Minnesota saying, "Well, we're not diverse because, like, the people aren't here," but in the course of this conversation with their community foundations it's like, "Well, it sounds like there's a lot of different people here," right? So I think the thing that I would push on for an organization saying, "We're really inclusive and we have diversity of thought, you know," or "We're just not--a diverse population isn't interested in working here," or, like, "We've tried to recruit and it doesn't work," or, you know, "Most of our hires are through referral or word-of-mouth," I would just push on that and say, "Is that the best way to source candidates? Is that the best way to bring innovation into your organization? Is that the best way to look at things differently?" Like, there's an opportunity in that that I think organizations don't necessarily claim. They sort of talk it away. Like, no. It's your responsibility as an organization to explore that opportunity in my opinion, particularly again as we tie to performance, because if you're not doing it, then you're not doing everything you can to enhance the performance in the organization.Zach: So, you know, and you've talked about performance quite a bit, like, in terms of you've said the term and you've talked about tying it back. Can you give us, like, a practical example of what it means to tie inclusion to performance?Pamela: The easiest thing for people to relate to is an individual example, is to say, "If I feel encumbered in any way, if I feel--" So I worked for... I'll give you an example personally. So I worked for a woman for a long time who, on its face, identity-wise, we were very similar, and she sort of self-identified herself as my mentor, and I worked with her and I would complete projects for her in briefings. In the federal space briefings are a big deal, so you sort of work on them. They're very detailed, and you know in consulting as well, right? Like, you prep a deck, right, for a presentation, and the details are important, and it gets reviewed by all of the important people, and then someone delivers it. And so at the time I was much more junior and I wouldn't be the person who delivered it, but we'd be in these meetings and, because I'm the one who prepared it, right--the person who prepared it knows all the details. They know why the period is in that specific place--and so there'd be questions, and she clearly wouldn't know the answers to those questions. She'd sort of look at me, and I would answer the question, and then sometimes I would, like, throw in my two cents about it because that is my way. [laughs] And whenever I had--like, whenever I sort of got too big in my boots or, like, had too much of a thought about it, she would stop me in front of everyone and say, "Pamela, as your mentor, I think that's a private conversation we need to have. I need to give you some guidance on that. Let's not--" You know, that kind of thing, and so I think that--Zach: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Before you just fly past that. [both laugh] Had someone said that to me, I'd look at them like [record scratch sfx]. Like, what? You can't just--so what did you say? What did you do?Pamela: I mean, I was--so, you know, power was at play, right? Like, I was a--at that time, in that role, I was a contractor. I wasn't even, like a full-time employee. I was an on-site contractor for this work, and so in front of all these senior leaders and, you know, at the behest of my boss, I didn't really feel like I had an option. I mean, I needed my job. [laughs] So I would sort of shut up and just, you know, "Sorry about that. Look forward to talking to you about it privately," right? And just try to move through and control my facial expressions, but when we think about performance, right, that's very limiting, and so, like, that only had to happen a handful--you know, I'm a quick learner. Like, that only had to happen a handful of times before I understood that I didn't really need to be giving anyone my best ideas, and I frankly didn't need to be putting my best ideas into these briefings. Like, if she was gonna do them and she didn't need my thoughts, right? I think it's the same as, you know, you often hear in diversity, in terms of inclusion and best practices, about amplification, which came out of the Obama White House. The senior policy women realized that they were being skipped over. I mean, that is a direct connection to performance. You've got this idea, or you're all trying to solve a problem, you have a suggestion, and it's ignored. I mean, how many times do you keep doing that before you just decide, like, "You know what? I'm not gonna do it." Like, "It's not worth it," right?Zach: Listen, it takes--and it's funny because, like, the older I've gotten, the shorter my fuse is with that stuff, right? Like, if I take the time and I really put together things--'cause, you know, at a certain point, you know, you live life long enough [and] you don't really need validation on every single thing, so you know if you put a good idea forward and people just glaze over it or they ignore you or they co-opt it in some way, it's like, "Ah, okay. All right, I'll keep those for myself from now on." [laughs] Pamela: So I think these sorts of slights are limiting to performance, and I think that if we were to look at, like, team dynamics, right, the boss who minimizes certain people while elevating other people, that inhibits performance, and you rely on--I mean, management is the highest calling. Like, in a manager's role, you have infinite impact because you're impacting the performance of your entire team, and you're very much a connector, right? When you think of sort of middle management, you're a connector between the front line and then the operational or strategic perspective in the organization, and so you look at a manager who's doing that over the course of their, you know, 20-year career as a manager managing people and what sort of impact does that have on the performance of that team over the long term and how that team interacts with other teams and how we solve problems? So I think--and, you know, you look at retail, and of course, like, the common example, right, is the Starbucks incident a couple of years ago or Sephora last year. I mean, if that's not inhibiting performance, I don't know what it is. The performance in retail is whether you have consumers who are buying, and so if you've got whole groups of the population who you've shown through this mishap and through this behavior that they're not welcome in your space or you're not interested in them consuming, I mean, that has a serious impact on performance. Zach: You know what? And it's interesting because as you say that I think about, like, another really practical--like, a performance indicator, it's just around, like, the retention of your team, right? So, like, in tech there's this--at least from a marketing perspective--there's an ongoing push for these tech spaces to be more inclusive, to be more diverse, to be more welcoming of underrepresented employees, not just at the--at the non-manager levels, but at the manager and senior manager and executive levels as well, and yet, like, we're seeing that, like, these tech companies are just burning--first of all, tech is, like, a high-burn--like, consulting, [?], like, those different groups are high-burn places for everybody, and they're particularly high-burn for underrepresented folks, right? Black and brown women, LGTBQ, of course trans individuals. It's high, high, high, high-burn, high-turnover for these spaces, and it's interesting because I don't know--I'm a manager. Like, I'm the manager at a fairly large tech consulting firm, and retention of my team or, you know, how I'm able to help retain or drive retention of underrepresented folks is not measured. Now, I'm rewarded for recruiting people in. If I can refer somebody and bring 'em in, I have very hefty rewards for that, but what isn't measured, for me anyway, explicitly is how we make sure those people say.Pamela: I think, like, also the other reality of sort of consulting environments and high-burn, high-churn organizations is that we often dismiss people who leave as, like, it's a failing on their part, so we feel like people left 'cause they can't hack it, like, they can't cut it, it's too intense. I think more and more organizations are getting better at this, but I think lots of organizational cultures are designed to say, like, "That's not our responsibility." Like, "I got you here. It's not necessarily my responsibility to keep you." They don't say that. Like, on their face--you know, publicly they talk about the value of retention and strategies to retain people and, you know, exit interviews, but culturally the organization--someone will leave and then everyone else will hear, like, "Oh, they weren't really cut out for this anyway," or, like, "It's okay that they're not here anymore." So I think some of that cultural reality makes it tough too. Zach: There's a dollar value though with turnover. It costs money for people to leave, right? So unless, like, someone is, like, a legal risk to the company, 7, 8 times out of 10 it's cheaper to keep 'em, you know what I mean? And so it's just odd--it's odd to me that we're not... and I don't know. You know, I'm not a lawyer. Maybe we'll bring on somebody later in the season around, like, why is it that the recruitment efforts are so, like, so emphasized and marketed but the retention efforts aren't, because--I mean, I know enough about human resources to know that hiring somebody just to have them leave, like, a year, year and a half later is just, like, a crazy cost, right? And so even if, to your point around the culture, like, if we're not talking about from a moral perspective or even an ethical perspective, even if you just look at it from, like, a dollars perspective, there should be some type of focus on that, and I really want to take that and then get into this next piece. So I think that leads me well into my next question about inclusivity and employee engagement. I think it's fair though, before we get into that, for us to define what employee engagement actually means. So as a subject matter expert and just from your perspective, Pam, how do you define employee engagement?Pamela: So I think a lot of organizations talk about fit, and I think in the realm of diversity and inclusion, and particularly bias, conversations, fit is a bit of a four-letter word, and I think organizations put the burden of fit on the person who works in the organization. So, you know, they have to fit in our team. And I would argue that the burden is actually on the organization to create an environment where people fit, right? Like, where they can lean into their strengths and make a contribution, which I think ultimately what everyone wants to do. I mean, we all go to work for a paycheck, but you have a choice about where you get that paycheck from and how you spend your time. So I think the burden is on the organization to create environments where people can fit regardless of their identity, where their identity is not a hindrance to them fitting, quote-unquote, in the organization, and if such an environment is created, I think that helps employee engagement. I think that is a determining factor to employee engagement. If I feel like I belong in the organization, like I fit, like they've made space for me to be exactly who I am and make a contribution that I find meaningful that also contributes to the bottom line of the organization, then I am engaged, and that includes, you know, everything from organizational policies that tell me that I belong there to how my manager treats me or how my colleagues engage with me. Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I know that, like, this idea around employee engagement, a lot of times--I did some work with... this was, like, before I was a consultant, but I was a part of this energy company, and Gallup was doing this whole, like, employee engagement survey for them.Pamela: Yeah. "Do you have a best friend at work?" [both laugh] That's their, like, infamous question.Zach: Yo, that's, like--boy. And no shade to Gallup 'cause I want y'all to come on here, but when they asked that at the time--this was some years ago--boy, you would have thought they figured out THE question to ask. I was like, "It's one question. It's one question, guys. Like, it's okay. Yep. We get it. It's not a huge indicator of a lot, but okay, great." But in that work with Gallup I remember that, like, one of the key talking points they had was like, "Look, employee disengagement isn't just, like, when the person is crossing their arms at their desk or always taking vacation or always sick or actively searching for another job on their computer," right? It's earlier than that, right? It's not that extreme. So I'm curious, like, what has your experience and research shown you how employee disengagement manifests and then how it's related to inclusive workspaces?Pamela: I think--like, as a manager, when you look sort of out across your team, there are people who are excited to be there. So I think it's less about--I think, again, sometimes we put the burden of employee engagement on the employee. Like, they're on Facebook at work or they're, like, you know, keeping Amazon in business during working hours, or they're showing up late or whatever, and we turn it into a discussion around, like, employee behavior and etiquette, but I think there's, like, a great--I mean, I think many people have great professional integrity, and they'll be disengaged and wouldn't be so belligerent in their behavior, right? [both laugh] They would, you know, search for their new job after hours on their home computer. And I think it's when they come in--and they would even continue trying to, like, do a good job and make a contribution, but, you know, they're doing what's asked and not necessarily coming to you with additional ideas, and they're not collaborating, right? You assign them something and you--I mean, engaged employees are actively engaged with their team, not only when they're directed to do so. So I think the sort of solitary nature of an employee is an early indicator that they're not engaged, right? Because when I'm engaged and I have something exciting--and I work remotely, so you have to be even more sort of deliberate about how you connect with people, but, you know, when I'm engaged and I'm excited about what I'm working on, I mean, I will call my colleagues just to say, like, "I want to hear what you think about this," or, like, "I just got this exciting--you know, a client just asked me for this thing. I'm sort of excited about it and would like to hear your ideas," or "Can I run this by you," right? I think how they're engaging, not just from an, I don't know, administrative standpoint in terms of, like, do they show up on time? [both laugh] It's more about, you know, are they working in isolation? Or are you seeing them actively engage with other people in the office? Do they have things at their desk that are of a personal nature? You know, I think people who don't feel like it's a right fit are much more cautious about that, right? They don't have pictures of their kids up or their partner, their puppy, right? You know, what do they do at lunch? And what does that behavior look like? So I think it comes across in how they're relating to other people in the organization.Zach: Right? And so when I think about what it means for leaders then to not undermine inclusivity or engagement at work, right? Like, I mean, I believe it calls for a much higher level of emotional intelligence and general empathy than we're giving folks credit for, and I question if organizations are doing everything they need to be doing to develop those muscles for leaders to even be sensitive and aware of those pieces that you just outlined, right? Because everyone has their own motivations, they have their own insecurities, they have their own pressures, and so it's--I empathize with the idea that okay, you have these leaders coming in, and they have these different metrics and things they have to hit, and also they need to be highly astute and aware of where their employee is, if they're paying attention, if they as leaders are creating an environment or opportunities for them to collaborate. If they're modeling collaboration, right? Like, in your work with FranklinCovey, have you had situations where you've had to have those types of conversations with leaders on how they can create more engaging environments?Pamela: I talk about that every day. I mean, I think that's a big thrust of our approach around unconscious bias and really all of our content. So I think emotional intelligence had a moment, right? It had a time, and it was a word that people were using, but it's sort of like self-awareness. Like, people say it's really important that you're, you know, self-aware as a lead, and everyone says, "I'm very self-aware," and then you talk to them for 5 minutes and you're like, "I don't know that you know what self-aware means," right?Zach: "I don't think you are." [both laugh]Pamela: "I don't think you're using that term correctly." So I think emotional intelligence is sort of similar. Like, you know, people know the four dimensions of emotional intelligence. You know, it's sort of like their DiSC profile. Like, they'll say, "I'm an EITJ," or whatever, and it just becomes this, like, default of, like, "I am" or "I am not." I believe emotional intelligence is a skill that you can build, and I think empathy is important, but I also think curiosity is important. You know, our CEO Bob Whitman did an interview recently, and he said curiosity is the #1 leadership competency or quality that he looks for in a person, and I just feel so strongly about that, because I think you can't be empathetic around information that you don't have. Like, I can't just--the goal is not to just be an empath who feels everyone's feelings. The goal is to learn something about someone that helps you relate to them. So as we were prepping, you know, for the interview, I talked about my kids, and you mentioned that you are welcoming a child soon. This is a point of connection. We can have some empathy about that, right? I can immediately think about what it was like when my kids first showed up and how lovely that was and the sort of high emotion of that experience, or, you know, you could hear me talk about my three-year-old and think, "Oh, wow. In three years I'll have a three-year-old." [both laugh] So I think that the curiosity piece is really important, and I think as managers--what I talk to managers quite often about is making the time for that. I think managers feel, particularly first-line leaders, you know, they were in a role as an individual contributor. They get promoted to that first-line leadership level, and they often still continue to do their individual contributor role and try to manage people.Zach: Right, on top of that.Pamela: On top of that, and there's just not enough time to do it. So of course you have to delegate and you have to trust your people, and there are strategies for how you can build trust in your people, build the capability of your people, but that has to be your new focus, and part of that is making some real time to cultivate connection among your team. And so, like, we'll talk with managers. We talk quite often at FranklinCovey about the value and importance of having one-on-ones and having a structure for those one-on-ones so that they're meaningful. It's not just a drive-by at your desk, right? It's not a weekly staff meeting, but actually having a one-on-one with people. And I'll talk to managers and they say, "Well, we have our annual performance review," and it's like... that's ridiculous. You can't have this conversation once, and around a performance document no less, right? So the one time that we engage in a one-on-one meeting, it's gonna be a high-stakes conversation, right?Zach: Where your livelihood is directly on the line.Pamela: Exactly. So I talk to leaders all the time about making the time and also being--you know, there are lots of introverts and lots of people to whom personal engagement doesn't feel natural, particularly at work, 'cause I think we're still fighting a little bit of the battle of, like, "I have a work persona and I have a personal persona," and I just--you know, one of the models we use at FranklinCovey to think about that is the whole person paradigm and just that you don't leave parts of yourself at home, right? You're a whole person all the time, and I really ascribe to that. I believe in that level of authenticity, and I think that we need to work deliberately to build that level of authenticity across teams. Managers need to ensure that they do know what someone's career goals are. Like, where do they see themselves in the future, and what are they interested in, and what are they excited about working on, and who do they really like to work with, and who are they challenged by, and, as a manager, can I find opportunities for them to connect with somebody they're challenged by so that we can improve our total dynamic, right? I worked for--in college, you know, I worked in college, and the best manager I've ever had I worked for in college, and she sort of sat me down and was like, you know, "I know that you work here and we have these goals around what we're doing." I worked in the student activity center, and we did programming around diversity and inclusion actually, and she said, "But you're a college student sort of at the beginning of your career and life, and it's important to not be myopic in terms of how you look at your goals." And so she gave me a little handout, and it had all of these different categories. It was like, finances and health and wellness and relationships and my family, and she said, "Every three months, every quarter, we're gonna sit down and just look at this and look at what your goals are. I'm gonna share with you my goals," right? So there was some vulnerability in it. It wasn't just like, "I will divulge my whole life story and you'll coach me through it." She was also sharing her goals, and particularly at a time--like, in college, my goal was, like, "I do not want to get my cell phone cut off again. I need to find a way to pay this bill," right? [laughs] And hers was "We're gonna buy a house." I was like, "Wow, a house," right? Like, the process of getting through a mortgage. Like, there's just--it's a small example of how a manager built connection with me through curiosity and empathy. She was vulnerable about what her goals were. She took the time to have this quarterly conversation with me. She created a space where I could talk about my whole self and everything I was dealing with at that moment in my life, and I think managers can do that on different scales based on the organizational culture and what is and is not appropriate to discuss and all that, but managers can do something like that with every member of their team, and they should, right? We shouldn't be having one annual performance conversation with your team. You shouldn't also--there are lots of employees who say they only speak to their manager to get assignments, right? So their manager just does drive-bys at their desk or calls them into their office to say, "Here, work on this," and never have, like, a more meaningful--Zach: Really transactional.Pamela: Really transactional, exactly, and for managers--managers will also lean into that. They'll say, "Well, no. It's just that I'm really efficient and I don't like to spend time and chit-chat," and that kind of thing, and it's more than that. It's not chit-chat. It's not--there's substance to having a meaningful conversation with somebody.Zach: That's just so true. So you've talked about bias and, like, you've used the term bias. You've even said unconscious bias. It seems as if the default any time we talk about bias within the diversity and inclusion space is that it's unconscious. Do you think that's a fair observation, and if so, why do you think that, when we talk about bias, we're often talking about unconscious bias and not just bias?Pamela: I think that's fair. I think--you know, really critical to any conversation I have about bias is about bringing the unconscious to consciousness, but also acknowledging that conscious bias exists. So I think unconscious bias can sometimes be used negatively, just like diversity of thought, but diversity of thought is really valuable, but it shouldn't be the reason you don't have diversity in other dimensions. And unconscious bias is really important, and it doesn't negate the reality that there are very conscious biases that exist and impact people's decisions. So I always include that in any conversation that I'm having about bias or any facilitation I'm doing, and the distinction is that conscious bias are things we can state directly. And so, like, once you can say it, it's no longer an unconscious bias. So you'll hear people say, like, "I have an unconscious bias around mothers of young children." Like, "I really just don't want to be hiring mothers of young children."Zach: Right, and that's a conscious bias. You just--you just said it. [laughs]Pamela: Right. Once you've said it it's not unconscious anymore, and it's important for people to reconcile that. You know, you're running interviews, and for all of the candidates of color you're asking them about, like, office etiquette, you know? Appropriate dress attire and showing up to work on time and how to, like, provide good customer service, and then for all of your, like, non-person of color, your white candidates, you're asking them about, like, the substantive job responsibilities, right? And then someone brings it to your attention--because interviews are often done in panel. There's usually more than one person at the interview, which is best practice, and they say, "Hey, I noticed that we spent, like, an inordinate amount of time with some of those candidates talking about what time they need to be at work, and I feel like at this level of a position that's not that significant. And I sort of noticed that you only asked some of them that and not others," and they're like, "Oh. Well, you know, I had this black lady working for me once and she was always late, and I just want to make sure that that doesn't happen again." Right? [laughs] Well, sounds like you've got a bias around that. I mean, once it's been brought to your attention, you don't get to keep doing it. Like, you don't get to keep making decisions through that frame, right? You have to work to mitigate the potential negative impact of that bias. So I think that any conversation around unconscious bias should include discussion about conscious bias and some of the real conscious bias that we have about, you know, employees at work and who should be in roles of authority and power, who should be promoted, or what kind of--you know, whether that is, you know, "We have this big project, but it requires lots of travel. We probably don't want Pamela to do that. She's got those little kids," or "She's taking care of her mother who's sick." Like, there's a bias in that. You should have a conversation with me about that. That affects my employment and my potential and possibilities in the organization. So I just think they come hand-in-hand and one can't be used as an excuse to ignore the other.Zach: No, I think it's just a great point, and I think the reason--so for me, it genuinely grinds my gears, because a lot of times I think D&I is often framed from the context of, again, like, majority comfort. So I believe that there's a lot of language where we kind of--and it's subtle, and it's kind of inserted all across. So diversity of thought, unconscious bias, sometimes in ways to just kind of give folks an out, and so I don't ever--I can tell you I don't ever hear conversations around conscious and unconscious bias. I hear it and it almost just automatically defaults to "unconscious," almost in a way to say, like, "It's not your fault," right? Like, it absolves you of responsibility as opposed to, "Okay, you have some actual biases, and they're true. Like, these are actual real biases that you have and you conduct and you're aware of, and they're not all mistakes," and I think sometimes when you talk about diversity and inclusion, when we're not talking about actual biases--and again, not in a way that tries to make white folks feel bad, but in a way that is just honest, I think that can lead to more productive conversations. We're in an era today where, you know, the 2020 election is coming up. We had a whole--a large part of America came to really see itself four years ago, and I think we have, like, another one of these instances coming up. It's, like, one of the rare times I think in this space that we can start pointing to things and say, "Hey, this is a lightning-rod moment. This is a lightning-rod moment." And I think we would be behooved to figure out a way to be a little bit more honest and intentional with calling out some of these things. I think it's really dope that the way that you frame these conversations is in the context of conscious and unconscious, but I can tell you, like, I have never heard anybody do that.Pamela: Yeah. I think a couple of things as you were talking came to mind. I think, you know, making white folks comfortable is an important part of work around diversity and inclusion, right? I do think we have too many internal conversations that, like, leave out that group of people, and it's important for us to--it's important for them to feel like they can join the conversation and help make progress, right, help make impact, and I think it's a fine line, right? Like, it's a fine line, and I walk it every day in my professional life to ensure that people feel like they can be part of the conversation without being accused of anything, and I work hard to create a space where people feel like they can be vulnerable and sort of divulge biases that they may realize, right, over the course of the conversation that we've had. The other thing that I think is problematic, the other sort of side of this, is, like, the call-out culture, that we don't actually--the more sort of "woke" our culture gets for... you know, lack of--I feel like I date myself when I say "woke." I'm like--Zach: No, it's okay. People will be using "woke" for another 10 years and, you know, most black and brown folks will be off it. It's okay. [both laugh]Pamela: But I think one of the challenges with, like, "woke" culture is that, like, we don't let people make mistakes, and people don't--so I think those two things are counter-balancing. Those things are--like, there's tension there in that, where we want to call things what they are, which I feel--you know, I feel strongly about, like, let's not use euphemisms to describe things. Let's talk about what the challenges are. Like, why is it that even in my unconscious bias work, lots of organizations will say, "Well, we really want to focus on gender diversity," right? Or "We really want to focus on our domestic workforce versus our global workforce." I haven't had, to this point, a single organization... maybe that's not true, but I haven't had very many organizations tell me "We want to talk about race," or, like, "We want to talk about trans people," right? So I think that there are some final frontiers around diversity and inclusion that organizations are not interested in addressing, and we have to get them interested in addressing those things. We have to name that and say, "It's important for us to also talk about race," right? We can't limit-

Ade and Zach sit down and have an entertaining discussion geared around Black History Month, and they both share their experiences in being frustrated by an employer's mismanagement of the celebration. Ade also talks a little bit about the body butter company she started, and she and Zach spend some time reflecting on how far Living Corporate has come since its launch in early 2018. Thank you all so much for your support! We owe it to you.Ade's body butter company soft-launches soon, so make sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram. Congratulations, Ade!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. And it's not just Zach. Ade: Ayyyye. It's Ade.Zach: It's Ade alsooo, yo, and we here, man. Look, it's Black History Month. It's 2020. You know, January was big trash, so we're just gonna start over. We're gonna count February as January--nah, just... 2020 is gonna have 11 months, that's all.Ade: Yeah, let's do that. I like that idea.Zach: Yeah, we're just gonna start over. So yeah, you know, it's Black History Month. Whole fresh new decade, and, you know, a few episodes have dropped. Downloads are popping, by the way. Like, they're really good, Ade. The numbers look good.Ade: Yay, that's awesome.Zach: Yeah, pretty good. So we both have a lot of stuff going on. What's up in your world?Ade: God, what isn't up? No, [laughs] I'm just really enjoying the ride. I got--you know, my first bit of code at my job was deployed successfully, went really well. I panicked a little bit near the end of the sprint there, but I got it all the way through, so I'm excited about that. I started my butter company, and my soft launch is February 10th, so I'm also really excited about that, just getting the opportunity--Zach: Hold on. Butter company? Like, what's up? Like, you making animal butter? Or, like, cooking butter? Or--Ade: [laughs] No, although somebody gave me the idea to do that. You know I love cooking and I love experimenting in the kitchen, so that was an idea that hadn't occurred to me. But this is the year of action, so I took action. [laughs] So now I have a company--obviously besides, like, this one--but I'm really excited. I've been connected with a bunch of really great folks within the, like, creative community, and I'm excited to see where this goes. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, hold on. We don't have to rush over to my stuff. Excited for you, congratulations on moving in action, moving in intentionality, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] That's great, you know? But anyway, you asked me about myself. Yeah, so look, things are going great. Really focused on getting ready for my wife and I's first child coming in, like... I mean, if she doesn't come early--if she doesn't come early it will be in, like, 6 weeks.Ade: Whoo!Zach: Right?Ade: Oh, my gosh. You're so close to the finish line. And I would like to reiterate here that Ade makes a fantastic first time. I'm just saying.Zach: It's great. I love that, 'cause I'd like to reiterate... [haha sfx] You know? [both laughing] Ade: You are so wildly disrespectful.Zach: Not at all, not at all. I just stay ready, you know? I just stay ready. I think for me it's, like, focusing on, like, the radical change that's about to happen in our family, in our lives, then, like, just doing, like, a reassessment of just everything else around me, right? Because, like, I think initially--and I'm sure most people who are preparing for children, they go through this too--you're kind of like, "Oh," you know, they'll just kind of fit into your plans, and I'm like--as I, like, kind of pause and think about all of the things I have going on, I'm like, "Dang, wait. Certain things are gonna have to shift and change." Like, it's not gonna just be like, "Oh, I'm picking up a new hobby," or starting a new podcast, like, this is a whole new person, a whole person that's about to be, like, active, actively involved and will have active present needs from myself and my partner for at least the next 18 years, right? If not the rest of their lives. So it's like, what does it look like? So y'all, this is not me alluding to the fact that the podcast is about to stop or anything like that, it's just more about life. Like, you know, talking to other fathers who had to make career decisions and think about, like, what did it look like for them to make adjustments, how do you communicate with your teams about being a dad and, like, the new responsibilities as a parent? Those are things I'm really excited to, like, explore and, like, really discover over the next few--you know, over the next months and stuff like that as I get ready for paternity leave and all that kind of stuff. Like, really just, like, being really clear with, like, what does it look like to, like, live in this new world? 'Cause, like, I don't know. Like, I'm 30 years old, so it's not like I'm--I'm not old, so I still have things--Ade: [whispering] Yes, you are.Zach: That's jacked up.Ade: [laughs] I too got shots in my pocket.Zach: That's crazy. I see you. But the thing about it is, like, I still have a few decades more of career to have, and so it's like I don't want to just, like, kind of sit on my laurels because I have kids. Like, what does it look like to still progress and have a career and, like, develop and do all these things while at the same time being a very present and attentive and engaged father? So normal stuff. Like, I think it's a challenge. It's a good problem to have. It's something that is--it's a problem created by growth, so to me that's a--I count that as a good problem. So that's, like, the main--the big, big thing, then the second thing is just, like, continuing to slow down and focus on, like, mental health. Like, my own personal mental health and, like, my mental wellness, right? I think the more and more people I--especially black men--that I talk to who are transitioning out of their twenties, you know, it's like--I've talked to more and more folks who are, black men, who, like, this is the time when they go to counseling, right? Like, if you haven't gone already. And I've gone at certain points in time. We did pre-martial counseling. I've done, like, personal counseling as I got ready to get married, but I haven't really ever gone to, like, see someone, like, a true therapist, right? Like, a true, like, psychiatrist. I think that there's a certain stigma around mental health, right, for black people, and I would say particularly for black men, and so it's, like, getting comfortable with talking to people and, like, really getting help and just talking through things. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, like, the road of life has all of these different bumps and potholes. You're gonna have mileage and just damage and disalignment that you just need help with just because of the reality of life and the trauma that life brings, especially in the context of white supremacy and patriarchy. So shoot... and then the last thing, y'all, I think I'm just really excited about, again, like, Living Corporate. Like, yo, we got featured on Forbes, man.Ade: Oh, my God. I just--Zach: What is it? So be honest. When you saw it, what did you--Ade: Okay, I just want to put some context. I am not--I don't scream very often.Zach: Did you scream for real?Ade: At the top of my lungs.Zach: Did you really?Ade: I really did. [Zach laughs] And here's why. Like, it genuinely is a life goal for me to make it on Forbes' 30 Under 30, so when you sent that link to me, I was like, "Surely he is just sharing a link of podcasts that we should emulate or, you know, link up with these people and get a sense of what they do, how they do it, how well they're do--" Nope, there's our name. I was like, "Holy--" I was on top of the Moon. It was a moment for me, okay, personally.Zach: I was curious. Well, 'cause I texted you and we didn't, like--'cause we didn't, like, really react in the moment. Like, I reacted. I texted you. I was happy. But you were in the middle of your work day and, like, I had some time in my day, so I was able to step away and, like, actually hit you, right? And so when you--[laughs] But you didn't, like, react, so I was like, "I wonder if she really cared about that." Like, not that you didn't care, but did it do anything for you. But for me I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, I was shocked. Ade: Absolutely. No, I need you to--I just want to, again, reiterate the fact that I don't scream on a regular basis. It's not my personality type to just be out here in these streets wildin'--at least in that way, 'cause I do be wildin'. I'ma just be honest.Zach: Right, you do. That's true.Ade: [laughs] You didn't need to agree with me. I was just--Zach: You know, you put it out there. It's on Twitter.Ade: Okay. All right, this is fine. But really, it was such an honor, and it was something that I would not in the--I mean, if we, like, rewind a year and a half or whatever--it was actually about this time two years ago. Are we two years [?]? Wait a minute.Zach: Yeah, it's been, like, two years.Ade: Holy [bleep?]Zach: Right? It's been nuts.Ade: [laughs] I really need you to understand that I'm literally just coming to the realization that Living Corporate is almost two years old. That's wild. That's so wild to me. We need sweatshirts and hoodies.Zach: We need merch, man. We need merch. We should really drop, like, little collections. Like Popeye's.Ade: We should. We should, like, go through and figure out what our favorites from our guests and from our hosts are and then, like, make some sweatshirts, 'cause I would wear my sayings. That's all I'm saying.Zach: You would wear your own sayings?Ade: Absolutely. What? Absolutely.Zach: Nah, that's the definition of a narcissist. You'd put your own quotes on clothing and walk around in them?Ade: Uh-huh, I would.Zach: Wow.Ade: I would. You know why? Because I have some fire, fire sayings. Zach: [laughs] That's crazy. You do, but it's like... you can't say that though. Like, that's crazy.Ade: What? No. 2020 is the year of big upping yourself.Zach: Wow. You know what though? I respect it, 'cause, you know what I'm saying, if no one else is gonna wear your sayings, you may as well.Ade: Exactly. Precisely. Kobe was a fan of big upping myself, and so am I.Zach: He was. That's true though. You know what? That's a good point.Ade: And the way that I do see it is, like--being a little bit more serious about the subject, 'cause I was kind of making fun of the entire concept, but sincerely, like, we preach that you have to be your own best advocate, right? And we preach that you have to kind of take stock and make sure that you are keeping records of your good deeds when you do them so that you can be able to speak to your managers, your peers and your supervisors, all of these things, but when you are an entrepreneur or you are an individual contributor or anything of the sort, you have to do the same, right? Like, you have to be too, and this was something that I had to get comfortable with. And I'm still not comfortable with it, to be frank. Like, I handed people an 8-ounce jar of my product, and they were like, "Well, how much is this?" And I'm, like, waffling around, like, "I kind of don't want to ask anybody for money for this," but it's a product, right? But being able to, like, stand on your two feet and be like, "No, this is a thing that I've done, and I'm worth the time and the investment that you're going to make in my product or in me as a person." It's all a part of being confident in all of the work that you've done. You're not asking people to buy into a single thing. You're asking them to buy into you as an idea, and if you're not willing to, you know, kind of say it with your chest, as Africans will say. [laughs] If you're not willing to say it with your chest, then who's supposed to be willing to stand behind you and say it with their chest? You see what I'm saying?Zach: Yeah, straight up. Like, you have to be willing to advocate for yourself and, like, promote yourself, because--I mean, the Internet is such a big and busy place and, like, the world is so big and busy that, like, yeah, there--and I was just having a conversation with a guest that I will not reveal yet because I like guests being a surprise week-to-week, but a guest I was having a conversation with, we were talking about networking and how, like, the world is connected, but it's connected via a series of, like, closed loops. So it's not like you can just, like--the world is connected, but you still have to, like, be in certain circles for things to even get started, right? And so, like, the idea of like, "Oh, I'ma just do this thing over here in this corner, and then if it's good it will eventually get seen." It's like that's not really true. Like, you have to really actively promote whatever it is that you got going on. Like, period. That's just the way it is. But yeah, to your earlier point about, you know, it being two years and Living Corporate being around almost two years, right? So, like, April will make two years--or is it June? Golly, I can't remember. Anyway, some time--Ade: I think it was April, but we definitely had, like, our inaugural Skype or, what was it, Google chat in February.Zach: There it is. You're right, we did. We did have our inaugural Google chat in February just to talk about things, and then, you know, we kicked everything off a couple months later, but it's crazy 'cause, like--and shout-out to Dr. Gassam, who wrote the piece for us, the article for us, and shouted us out and, like, you know, put us up as #1. I don't know what those little numbers mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, 'cause I really--what I was really shocked about was everybody else on that list, everybody on that list are huge. Like, shout-out to Side Hustle Pro. Shout-out to Code Switch, dawg. Shout-out to Myleik. I was like, "Yo, we're up here with Code Switch? Myleik?"Ade: Code Switch.Zach: Code Switch! And yo, shout-out to NPR and Code Switch, because I remember when we first started thinking about, like, Living Corporate, like, as a podcast, we were like, "What are the ones that really inspire us?" And me and at least one other person was like, "Code Switch," 'cause, like, the format is so fire. Like, shout-out to y'all, man. So, like, even if anybody--for anybody to think about us in the same vein as them, like, I feel like that's a win on its own, 'cause that lets me know--that affirms me that, like, we're achieving [against?] the vision that we had initially set out, but it's crazy 'cause there's been, like, a lot of ups and downs and, like, a lot of stuff going on, but, you know, [Paul Rudd look at us sfx, Ade laughs].Ade: I'm just over here, like, giddy and over the Moon. Yeah, no, and it's funny because you're not the only person who sent me that link, and that's, like, the other thing that [?].Zach: Oh, you didn't tell me that.Ade: No, like, sincerely, you weren't the only one that sent me that link. My friend sent me that link, and I actually encountered someone--shout-out to you, you know who you are--who I literally had just, like, been talking to him. He's transitioning into tech. I just, like, try to make sure I'm giving people advice and help and checking in with people that I know are making the same transition, and I reached out to him, and he was like, "Wait, are you Ade from Living Corporate?" Zach: What?Ade: 'Cause he literally met me from an entirely separate context. And so to be able to encounter someone who, you know, knows of us and knows me in my best light, not, you know--clears throat--anyway. Zach: Dawg, I'ma tell you something. One day--one day, y'all... hey, listen, y'all. Some of y'all are, like, listening to this with a confused face. Trust me, I'm confused too, but one day we're gonna come on this podcast and we're gonna have a real conversation about the crazy life that Ade lives, 'cause why would you come on here and say, "Yeah, this Forbes article, and someone who knew me, and not in my best--" And then this awkward pause. I hear you audibly gulp in the mic. Like, what? [laughs] Y'all, y'all understand the type of work--like, y'all understand the team I have, right? Like, that's crazy. Y'all, don't treat me like--yeah, now y'all know what I'm doing with. What kind of weirdness is that? Go ahead. This person who hasn't seen you at your best and sent you the Forbes link. What?Ade: [sighs] I'ma just move forward. [Zach laughs] No, no, no.Zach: I wonder, is Ade the Mal of this podcast? 'Cause I'm certainly Joe Budden. I realize that. But Ade might--Ade might be the Mal. She might be the Mal of this podcast. She's, like, a little too cool to pod, but then she'll say [?] things.Ade: I demand we move forward. [both laugh]Zach: Goodness, gracious. Go ahead. Keep going.Ade: Anyway, so I'm just really grateful for, you know, where we are, and--first of all I want to give Zach and our writing team and our production team and our social team all the props, like, every single prop that exists, because you have been put in blood, sweat, tears, money, effort, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum into this, and it shows in the quality of our partners, our work, our podcast, our newsletters. Like, everything. Like, you've been really intentional about the direction that Living Corporate would take, and I really respect that, and you are by far one of the most aggressive--but you're not gonna beat me up though--type energies [?].Zach: [laughs] It's true though. It's true. [both laughing]Ade: And Living Corporate has enjoyed that energy, enjoyed the fruits of that energy.Zach: I do have "but you're not gonna beat me up though" type energy, and I've come to peace with that. It's true.Ade: It's my favorite thing about you, and also, like, simultaneously your worst quality when you turn it on me, [both laugh] but--[to this day sfx]Zach: [laughing] Oh, my gosh. It's true. But this is the thing, you gotta have "you ain't gonna beat me up though" energy, because boy, the world will beat you up, boy. The world out here tryna come--it coming for your neck, dude. I mean, every day I'm over here like [Cardi B blatblat sfx] with these haters, man. I'm trying to, like, stay alive out here. I gotta fight every day. Every day. All my life, literally trying to fight and then at the same time avoid--[Law and Order sfx]--like, at the same time. [both laugh] I be so aggravated, man. Do you know the fine line you have to walk as a black man? Man, I'm telling you, being black is so exhausting. Being black and conscious, like--James Baldwin, man. He was not lying, dawg. Not lying at all, because you are in a rage all of the time, and you're over here trying to, like, stand up and just speak to the fact that you're worth something. Listen... eugh. You're over here trying to literally raise your voice loud enough to be heard and respected, but not too loud, right?Ade: 'Cause [?], and here y'all come.Zach: Here y'all come, without at the same time going to jail. So it's, like, this fine line that you have to walk. It's just nuts. Anyway, nah, I appreciate that, Ade. And, you know, I appreciate you as well. You know, you're here. The biggest--Ade: Finally.Zach: Finally, that's true. But look, you was gone for a little minute, but you back in town. You know? It's okay. I think the biggest thing--what do they say, "the biggest ability is availability?" It's corny. It's kind of a coach's--coaches say that, but it's a true statement. Like, just be present, you know? I know one thing, and shout-out to Rod from The Black Guy Who Tips and Karen, his lovely co-host and partner, but one of the things he said, like, from the jump--like, he jumped on our podcast early. He was like, "Yo, being consistent--" He's like, "'Cause people come and leave, like, jump on these podcasts and leave all of the time." He's like, "So having some longevity is hard over time," and if it wasn't for our team - Aaron, Sheneisha, Amy, Latesha, Tristan... like, we have a great, great team, and we put out a lot of content. Like, we're posting three episodes a week every single week, and, like, that doesn't happen without a huge team--or, I'm sorry, relatively huge and a consistently dedicated team. So, like, really proud of them, really proud of, like, just what we've been able to do, and just, like, really thankful for Dr. Gassam, 'cause, like, there's plenty of other platforms that are trying to make content. I really still stay that, like, it's us, Trill MBA and, like... that's kind of it right now that's out here really talking about other in majority-white spaces. Anyway, so look, it's Black History Month. Have you seen any--I'm just gonna ask the question. I don't know why I'm trying to, like, play it safe. Have you been on a job where your employer has annoyed you by how they've handled Black History Month?Ade: Let me count the ways. I--[laughs] Whoo, let me take a breath. All right. I have been aggravated by several firms, actually, simply because--Zach: [laughs] Yes, shout-out "firms." Consulting, we're talking about y'all. [laughs]Ade: Looking right at you, friends. Zach: Looking right at y'all, professional services. Yes. [laughing]Ade: No, I just--there's nothing I hate more than double-talk, and by that I mean firms, corporations, whatever it is that y'all would like to call yourselves--active participants in capitalism--who pay lip service, either through, like, their mission statements, their values, their creed, or even their stated employee resource groups that they care about diversity and somehow consistently fail to make a statement or support or do anything of value, particularly during Black History Month. I noticed this during my employment at a firm I will not name in the past where, you know, July 4th came around, Veteran's Day came around. You know, all of those things were celebrated or commemorated by words from the leadership of the firm going out, but when Black History Month came and went there was nary a bleep, and it was so noticeable because, you know, the firm had something to say on MLK Day, but, you know, when ostensibly there would be time for--and to their credit, the employee resource group put on one... ONE program for the entire month of February. I understand that, you know, funding is a thing. It's difficult to organize sometimes around different people's schedules, but, you know, one event over the course of the entire Black History Month? I cannot tell you how deeply bothersome I found that, simply because you have a body of people who are, whether they consciously or not notice these things, are essentially being utilized as resources by this firm. I mean, you are essentially selling our time to all of these contracts, you're making millions off of us, and you can't take the time during Black History Month to care about Black History, but you can, on July 4th, take time to commemorate these things? Or you can during Veteran's Day or Memorial Day or Labor Day and all of these other things. So it feels like a very intentional slight, because, I mean, I know that your calendar functions the same way that my calendar does, and I know that your Google functions the same way that my Google functions, so it's not like you're missing out on the reminders that these things exist. So when there's an intentional exclusion, or what feels like an intentional exclusion, of black people from, you know, your commemorative messages, it's like, "Heard you. We see where your priorities are." And an even further extension of that logic is that when--you know, during these programming sessions there are no, like, leadership in the room to attend these programs or there's no support, you know? People have to come out of pocket for things, to pay for things. It just feels very ugly. I'ma use that word, ugly. Dusty. Musty.Zach: Raggly.Ade: Raggedy.Zach: And there's a difference now, and this is where--so, you know, you and I, I love the diversity just in our pairing, right? But, like, you know, you're an East Coast black and I'm a Southern black, right?Ade: Precisely.Zach: It's interesting, 'cause you said raggedy, and see, what I said was raggly.Ade: Raggley, mm-hmm.Zach: Raggly. Not raggley, raggly. Now, look, I want--'cause every now and then I teach--and if you're listening to this you know who you are, but for the white folks that I trust, the Buckys out there, the allies, or the aspirational allies, that I trust, every now and then I'll teach y'all a phrase called "fifty-'leven," right? You know who you are. If you're listening to this and you actually, you know, rock with me and you listen to this, I've taught you this. [both laughing] I've taught you all these phrases, and this is another one for y'all to take in. So look, it's not raggedy, nor is it raggley. It's raggly. It's two syllables, and that is often times a descriptor for how companies manage Black History Month.Ade: I will make an amendment to that statement, 'cause I don't necessarily agree. There are, uh, regional differences to dialects, you see. [Zach laughing] So while Zach is correct for his particular region of the Souf--notice I said Souf--Zach: That's true. Souf. That's true. That's fair, 'cause Southern is--'cause we live in America. Southern is a huge region. That's true. That's fair.Ade: Take his advice lightly, you know? Do with that what you will. Zach: [laughs] Be careful.Ade: And, uh, if you get run up on, please don't quote us.Zach: Don't quote me.Ade: 'Cause we will not be popping up [?].Zach: Uh-uh, uh-uh. Don't. And honestly, maybe don't say fifty-'leven around everybody. They'll be like, "Who taught you that?" And don't tell 'em it was me. [laughs] Nah, but no, I'm right there with you when it comes to, like--I've been in situations where, you know, either we don't celebrate Black History Month at all, we don't recognize it in any way, or employee resource groups will get, like, the black people to huddle together and they'll go do something, right? It's like, "Um..." Black history is American history. This should be something company-wide. And I'm not saying we gotta do something every single day, but can we do at least one thing? Can we recognize some of the black pioneers in our own firm, in our own companies? Like, we have our own historical marks that we've made, but I think--I don't know. It's tough, it's tough because--and honestly, like, even I say this, like, I get--like, I'm hearing... 'cause there's some executive leaders and folks who listen to Living Corporate, right? And they listen to it for different points of insight or whatever, and so there's a part of me who--and they're like, "Well, dang, I can't even win for losing," 'cause, like, the other part of me is gonna say, "And even if you are doing something for Black History Month, what are you doing for the rest of the year?" Right? 'Cause it can just be, like, an acknowledgement. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing to, like, actually advance having a more equitable and inclusive culture that drives belonging in your place of work? But I do think, like, at just the--I mean, I'm talking, like, floor level, if we could just start with some acknowledgement, you know? Like, you don't have to always quote Martin Luther King. You could actually, like, integrate and be intersectional with your Black History Month if you wanted. [Ade laughs] You can! Like, you can actually, like, quote trans rights, trans activists who happen to be black, and you can tie that in with, like, your LGBTQ ERGs. You could quote, like, Afro-Latinx civil rights activists and, like, historical people, and, like, integrate them. Like, there's all types of ways. You know there's ways that you can actually--you could use Black History Month to drive intersectional conversations and activities for your whole firm, 'cause black people are not just black. Black people are black and gay, black and Latinx. They're black and straight. They're black and female. They're black and disabled. Like, it could actually be something that could be--you know, you could use Black History Month similarly to how you use black and brown people anyway, which is really kind of like just the glue that holds everybody together. You could just use us if you want. You could use the month how you use black and brown people. Like, let me just be super cynical, right? You could actually--like, from a programming perspective, from, like, a networking and engagement perspective, from, like, even leveraging--like, getting more thought leadership, like, you could do all types of things with that month. You have a whole month, and this month you have a whole extra day. So it's like--Ade: No excuses.Zach: No excuses, right? Like, you could do something. And, like, if you need any help with ideas, then, I mean, you could talk to your own leadership. You could talk to--I don't know. There's just so much out there now. There's just so much--maybe we just need to drop an article on ideas for your Black History Month. Maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I don't--Ade: You know what? That's a good idea.Zach: I mean, maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I'm over here just thinking about it more and more. It's like, "I don't know if I've been a part of any company that I have walked away and felt like, "Wow, I really feel seen this Black History Month." I don't think that's ever happened to me. In fact, I remember last year I tried to quote a--like, I was on a project and there was a quote board, okay? So you put a little quote up there, and I was like, "Oh, it's Black History Month," and I tried to quote--I think I quoted, like, Oprah Winfrey or something like that, and, like, they literally erased it and put up some white man's quote and they were like, "This is more relevant." I said, "But I thought it was a quote board." Ade: Right?Zach: Like, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean it's more relev--okay... and again, that's where I had to make a choice between, like, okay, am I about to die on this hill? Am I gonna go to jail? Like, what am I gonna do? 'Cause, like, I just--I don't--nope. So I had to make a decision, but anyway. So okay, what else do we have going on? So what's the name of the company though? The body butter company. I'm jumping all around now. What's--'cause we didn't talk about that before.Ade: [laughs] Right. So my company is called Solari, S-O-L-A-R-I. It is a portmanteau of my name, or a part of my name, and my mom's name. And on Instagram and on Twitter I'm pretty sure our handle is @SolariBody, so it's S-O-L-A-R-I-B-O-D-Y. And yeah, I'm really excited. I'm kind of blushing right now. [laughs] I'm really excited about just getting started and just being able to expand my reach. So I've been doing a lot of kind of, like, self-care stuff for a very long time, like making my own body butters and making my own, like, lip balm, conditioner, and all these other things--and scrubs--and just the idea of being able to... and this is another thing that happened, but I'll finish my sentence. Just the idea of being able to utilize all of the things that I put into practice because I want to take care of myself and take better care of myself. So, for example, I would, like, make my own hair oils, but when I realized that other people wanted these things and don't necessarily want to go through the process of experimentation to figure out all of the ideal things--and I've already been doing these things for over a decade--I was just kind of like, "You know what? I'm gonna do this, and it's gonna be fun," and the reception has been fantastic.Zach: Well, I'm really proud of you. I'm happy for you, you know? I think--you talked about this a little bit on the last, when we did our season kickoff episode, but it's easy to, like, get in your own way and to like, you know what I'm saying, just let anxieties and different challenges, like, just hamper you or kind of put you in a stalemate, but it's really exciting, like to see you continue forward and build something. Ade: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome. Man, so, you know, my cadence as I was pausing there, it reminded me of my own Barack Obama impression that I do at the house for fun with Candis just to get on her nerves, 'cause I was almost like... [impersonating Barack] "Uh, Ade, it is, uh... impressive how you have taken the time," you know what I mean? I almost--and then I go into, [continuing] "Every day, there are Americans who get up, they have their challenges--" [Ade sighs, Zach laughs] "If there was any doubt, uh, that you could not do what it is that you're doing today, uh, you have nowhere else to look but in the mirror. Uh, you get up. You put that butter on your dry skin. Uh, you hydrate yourself, and you face a world that is not ready for someone like you."Ade: I'm about to hang up on you, sir. [both laugh] I am so done.Zach: [laughs] Goodness, gracious. So all right, y'all. Well, look, this was just a fun episode, you know, letting you know what we've got going on. Thank you so much. Shout-out to everyone who listens to this podcast. Shout-out to--shoot, I ain't gonna get into all the shout-outs, but just shout-out to y'all. Make sure that you share this with your people. Continue to share it. The numbers are showing that y'all are sharing it, and I look at our stats every single day 'cause that's just kind of the person I am, the obsessive person that I am, but [laughs] we're really appreciative. And then, shoot, I guess we'll see y'all next time. Make sure you follow--Ade: Wait, one last thing before we go. We kind of vaguely talked about it, but I do want to insert a moment of silence here for Kobe Bryant and his daughter and all of the passengers of the helicopter that went down. We actually weren't able to get on this podcast to discuss it because we were just so emotional. I tried, and it's about 7 minutes worth of just sobs and sniffles on that, but I think this is a pretty good time to do it. So if everyone listening could just join us in a moment of silence. [a moment of silence] Thank you. Zach: Nah, for sure. Yeah, we could talk about--we're gonna have to have an episode about trauma and, like, the ways that trauma impacts black and brown people at work every day, and how we're still expected to just, like, show up and perform two or three times better than our counterparts just so that we can keep our jobs. So... but yeah.Ade: And I just also actually--I think we should have a black heroes episode.Zach: I love that.Ade: I think that in an episode coming up soon we're gonna discuss, you know, some of our heroes, and Kobe's one of mine. People who have just shown you how to get through life with dignity and with grit, and that's a term that I didn't used to use so frequently and so intensely until now. But again, it's a topic that we'll be covering later, but suffice to say that was a shock to my system, and I didn't expect that it would be so shocking. I didn't expect just how strongly I would react, and I suspect that so many others found themselves reeling in the aftermath of that news. Our prayers and our thoughts of those affected. And another topic I think we should also explore is, you know, how to disconnect in times of trauma and to kind of reassess and to find your balance in those times as well. That's it for me.Zach: Nah, I love that, and I super agree. And y'all, on that super, you know, emotional, heavy note, we're gonna catch y'all next time, okay?Ade: For sure.Zach: Now, look, you make sure you check us out. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram, @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We have all the different domains. One day, man, we're gonna get that livingcorporate.com domain, man. Right now we have all the livingcorporate dot everything but com, and then we got living-corporate.com, but shoot, until next time. This has been Zach.Ade: This is Ade.Zach: Peace, y'all.Ade: Peace.

Zach chats with Michelle Kim, co-founder and CEO of Awaken, in this episode centered around effectively creating inclusive leadership cultures. Michelle shares her journey into social justice work with us, including what led to the creation of Awaken, and she explains why she and her organization prioritize the needs of the most marginalized people in the room.Connect with Michelle - she's on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Check out Awaken's website and social media pages! Twitter, IG, FB, LinkedInYou can read Awaken's Medium blog by clicking here.Want to learn more about Build Tech We Trust? Here's their website and Twitter!Click here to read the Salon piece mentioned in the show.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach. Yes, again, it's me. Your boy, your host, your friend, your co-worker--maybe your co-worker, I don't know. If you work with me you know that I have this podcast, and, I mean, hopefully if you're checking it out, you know, hopefully you're having a good time. Shout-out to you. I'm not gonna say your name, but you know I'm talking to you. What's up? Look, you know what we do. We serve to amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that by talking to black and brown people in a variety of spaces, right? So these could be executives, public servants, activists, creatives, entrepreneurs, anybody, and we try to have these conversations in approachable and authentic ways, centering black and brown and otherwise underrepresented experiences and perspectives at work, and today we have with us a very special guest, Michelle Kim. Michelle is the founder and CEO of Awaken, a firm that empowers leaders and teams to lead inclusively and authentically through modern interactive and action-oriented workshops. Prior to Awaken, she had a successful consulting career working with C-suite and VP-level executives at high-performing companies around the world, helping them set ambitious business goals and align their teams to achieve them. While working in management consulting and technology start-ups, she experienced and validated first-hand the urgent need for modern, up-to-date education that empowers leaders to be more empathetic, agile, and culturally aware. Come on, now. Culturally aware. Pay attention. Michelle's experience in organizational change management, strategic goal setting and social justice activism set the groundwork for Awaken's multi-disciplinary and action-oriented learning programs. As an immigrant queer woman of color, Michelle has been a life-long social justice activist and community organizer. Michelle, what's going on? Welcome to the show.Michelle: Hey, thank you for having me. I'm so honored.[yay sfx]Zach: No doubt. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Michelle: Those are the sound effects that you told me about. [laughing]Zach: Yes, yes. So for those who are newer to the show, I have a soundboard. I have all types of sounds on here, you know what I'm saying? You know, we add a few things from time to time, and, you know, just enjoy yourself. If you're new to this space, sit back, grab something to drink--it doesn't have to be alcoholic, you know? I respect your choices, your boundaries. But enjoy the soundscapes that are gonna be coming to you in this episode and many more to come.Michelle: I love the production.Zach: You know what? We gotta add a little bit of razzmatazz, just from time to time. So let's do this. You know, I gave a little bit of an intro, but for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Zach, for the intro. I think you covered a lot in my intro, but I think something that some people might be familiar with is actually my writing. I am an [?] writer. That's how I communicate my thoughts and perspectives to the world, in addition to facilitating workshops and doing speaking like this one or on stages all over the country. My passion is in really closing the gap between how we talk about social justice in our society today and how, you know, quote-unquote diversity and inclusion gets done, and quickly. So I think that there's a lot of work that we can do to help bridge the gap in understanding and awareness of how we communicate with each other. And also a fun fact about me is I'm a Virgo.Zach: Shout-out to Virgos. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. You said you're a Virgo?Michelle: I'm a Virgo.Zach: Man, shout-out to the Virgos one time. I'm also a Virgo. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? They don't know about us like that. But please, tell us about your Virgoness.Michelle: You know, a lot of my friends who know me closely know my tendencies to be highly critical, but I also think that's what--I think being critical gets a bad rep, but I actually think that being critical is what makes me decent at my job. I also think that I have perfectionist tendencies, which I don't think is healthy, so I'm working on that. I like being organized. I am a huge fan of to-do lists. And I love--my love language is acts of service, so I think that also aligns with me being a Virgo. So I tend to, you know, go overboard when it comes to supporting other people, sometimes to a fault, 'cause I need to prioritize self-care and boundaries and all of that, but I'm not. I'm not perfect at that stuff.Zach: I just feel so--I feel so seen in you talking about yourself.Michelle: [laughing] Good. I'm glad, I'm glad. Virgos unite.Zach: They do. And honestly, like, you know, here we are, two people who over-extend for others sitting down, having a conversation that really helps to amplify one another. Isn't that something? [look at us sfx] Not me, you know what I'm saying?Michelle: That's right.Zach: [laughs] You were about to say something.Michelle: I said "Do you know who else is a Virgo?"Zach: Beyonce.Michelle: Beyonce's a Virgo. So whenever I feel like I need to be [?] about being a Virgo, I look to Beyonce for inspiration.[ow sfx]Zach: I'm right there with you. I mean, if she can do it, certainly I can do it. And, you know, my dad's a Virgo, so shout-out to my dad. He was born on the 6th, I was born on the 4th, and, you know, we're a lot alike. Okay, so yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your inspiration for social justice, and I really want to--'cause social justice is such a broad term. It's often even, like, used as a pejorative these days. So, like, when you say social justice in, like, your history, what does that look like for you?Michelle: That's a great question. My journey into social justice work really began with the lens of being a queer person. You know, I think my journey really started with my coming out. So I came out as queer and bisexual when I was 16. So I was in high school, and I was really confused. I didn't know about, you know, any social justice issues beyond--I think what people were talking about then were women's rights, and, you know, now I understand that to be white women's rights, but we'll get into that more. But when I came out as queer I didn't have a lot of resources, so I was really actively searching for community and support to make sense of who I was [and what I could do about my identity.] I was really fortunate to have found a great support group within my high school that was kind of an underground support group, and through that I found out about this program happening out of UC Santa Barbara where they were doing youth activism summer camp kind of stuff for LGBTQ young people. So that was my entryway into social justice work, and that's where I learned how to organize, how to, you know, stage protests and knowing my rights as a student activist, and that's where I learned about social justice activism and writers who wrote about social justice, like Audre Lorde. So that was my entryway into understanding social justice, is through the frame of my being queer and learning from queer trans activists, also young people, and that's also where I learned about the intersections of being queer and also being a person of color and all of the nuances of the different identities and the intersections of different types of marginalization and oppression and how often times they all come from the same root and source of, you know, patriarchy or white supremacy. So, you know, I'm throwing a lot of [?] here, but really at the end of it, for me social justice is about, you know, understanding that we're all in this struggle together, and in order for us to achieve equity and equality and justice that we need to have solidarity in this frame of social justice.Zach: And so I'm really curious, right? Let me talk to you a little bit about my perspective, it being singular and limited, right? So I don't believe this is the way it is. This has been, like, my perception as I look--a cishet black man, Christian black man, looking across this, like, D&I space, right? Like, I'm seeing, like, different camps and groups, right? So I see this group that is largely white and who--like, they're invited to a lot of the fancy things, but they're not necessarily credentialed other than being in a certain social strata, but they're not really credentialed in any type of lived experience, nor are they credentialed in any specific level of education, but they're credentialed in, like, certain experiences from, like, again, just being in certain spaces, right, that are afforded to them because of their class and race. I then see another group of people that are very much so, like, activists. Like, they're on the street. If they're using social media, it's to mobilize something tangible. It's to affect a change in some type of grassroots community level. And then I see, like, another group that is kind of--like, they're in the corporate space and they're doing a few things, but they're not necessarily really, like, enacting anything beyond whatever the company needs them to do to kind of mitigate litigious risk, but I think--I'm kind of seeing, like, tensions against each of these groups. I'm curious about, like, your perspective, considering your social activist background and the work you do today. Do you see similar camps in the space, and, like, if not, what are you seeing? Do you think I'm oversimplifying kind of, like, the various camps and groups, or, like, what's your perspective on that?Michelle: I don't think you're oversimplifying per se, 'cause I do see what you're saying. I hear you in terms of there being different--because identities [are?] also a different approach to doing diversity and inclusion work inside the workplace. I think--a couple things that I want to clarify in terms of my beliefs is that I don't think anyone can truly call themselves a D&I expert. I certainly don't call myself a D&I expert, because I believe fundamentally diversity and inclusion is about lived experiences, so it's all about how we make sense of our lived experiences in relation to the systems that we inhabit, so I think everybody's an expert in their own lived experience, and I can't ever claim that I'm an expert in your life, right? So I think that's one belief that I have, that we all are experts in our owned lived experiences. And then another belief that I have is that, you know, social justice activism isn't just about being out in the street and marching and protesting. You know, there's a lot of activism happening inside of workplaces today as well through corporate activism, but also just daily acts of survival for a lot of folks, especially black and brown people, underrepresented people of color and trans and queer people inside workplaces. I think what they're doing, just by mere survival and speaking up when they can, is an act of activism. I think there is a greater sense of responsibility that I'd love for D&I professionals to have, whether they're inside or outside of the workplaces, in really making sense of how change happens and pushing the boundaries to serve the most marginalized people in the room. I think that's where my criticality comes in, when you start to talk about mostly white--I think I've seen a lot of white women take up the role of head of D&I. That's where I start to question whether, you know, are they understanding the positionality of being a white person, doing this work inside workplaces, holding a position of power? And, you know, I start to question sort of how change is being [assisted?] inside companies while prioritizing the needs of the most marginalized people. So I do think that people without the social justice frame, as in--you know, I think the root of my education and the foundation of my social justice education that I've gotten from, you know, activists who were organizers at the community level, what they've taught me is that in order for us to enact change, we need community, we need solidarity, and we need to approach everything through the lens of centering the most marginalized people and their needs, 'cause then everybody in-between and all of us will rise together. So that is sort of my approach when it comes to education or policies, whatever organizational design we're talking about. If we can center the most marginalized people, then everybody else will benefit. So that's the social justice framing that I use to approach all of my work, but I think I see some D&I people in the corporate space doing D&I work as if this is a new discipline that's not tied to social justice at all, right? That this is--in a vacuum, this is just about recruiting the most, you know, diverse set of candidates, that it's about retaining those people once they get there, but it's sort of in a vacuum without the understanding of systemic issues and history that has fueled D&I to exist in the first place. I think that's my biggest sort of criticism about how D&I gets done in the corporate space today.Zach: And I get that, right? It resonates with me, which is why I was so excited, because I really enjoyed--like, I've read some of your written work, and of course I follow you on social media. I love what Awaken is doing, right? And really, based on what you're sharing, I'm curious, how does that translate into the work that Awaken does? Because everything you're saying, I'm hearing it, right? But I guess I'm trying to understand--how does that effectively translate in majority-white spaces in the work that--and I'm making an assumption that the spaces that you engage are largely white. If they're not correct me, but from what I'm looking at it seems like the spaces are largely white, and it seems to be that when I talk to other D&I professionals, the subtext of a lot of the work, and even some of the, like, backhanded critique that I've received--because I'm often times received as "Well, you're passionate, but you're not really credentialed, right?" Like, "You're a person of color and you have a certain lived experience, but, you know, you don't have the same foundation that I may have as a quote-unquote D&I expert, so your point of view only goes so far," or it's only limited to the black experience. There seems to be, like, a subtext of "Let's not make people too uncomfortable," but the work that you're talking about in centering underrepresented or the most marginalized, that--I feel as if the argument could be made that you're automatically making other people uncomfortable. So again, just what does all of that look like as it translates into your work with Awaken?Michelle: Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm also so curious about these credentials, right? [both laughing] 'Cause I see these credential programs or certification programs. Like, what are you certifying people for? I'm so curious. I think there are absolutely some skills that we can learn, whether that's facilitation or curriculum development or policy design, that we can get better at, but in terms of understanding other people's lived experiences and the identities that folks hold and the complexities that come with that, I don't know if we can truly ever be credentialed enough to be, you know, discounting other people's experiences and opinions. So that's my perspective on it. And in terms of how our approach translates into our work, you know, I think we can talk about sort of the founding story, why we were created in the first place. So, you know, after having done organizing work when I was in high school and college, I decided to pursue a career in, you know, the for-profit space because I needed to make money, let's be real, and I was told actually by my activist mentors, who have gone onto pursuing social justice careers as career organizers and non-profit folks, that they were also experiencing very sort of similar harm, because even non-profits are predominantly led by white people, right? So I think the issues that we think are non-existent in progressive--quote-unquote "more progressive" spaces, they continue to exist, while folks are not making enough money to make ends meet. So--[straight up sfx]Michelle: [laughs] I love the sound effects. Knowing that and knowing my situation as a--you know, I grew up low-income, and I needed money to support my family. The advice I got from my mentors was "Hey, you can create change in certain spaces." They warned me about the toxic culture, but I went in sort of ignorant about what I was getting myself into. So I also really am grateful for my journey, having started my career in management consulting and in tech. I think I have experienced a lot of different things that I wasn't ready for but I'm grateful for nonetheless. But when I entered in those spaces, I was exposed to and I searched for D&I spaces, right? Because I thought that that was what I knew to be social justice work. So when I joined an employee resource group, I was, you know, disappointed at the level of conversations that were being had around what it means to be inclusive, what it means to be a diverse place, and I was surprised and disappointed and disillusioned by what companies were talking about as D&I was quite surface-level and marketing-oriented rather than real actionable behavioral change or cultural change that were being modeled by leaders of the company. So, you know, I was going through different workshops and trainings and just kept feeling like I was not seeing the level of conversations that actually needed to take place in these spaces, and it felt really safe. It felt safe. It felt white-washed. It felt diluted. As, you know, somebody who was just sitting in the room and constantly challenging the facilitator, I felt like I was doing all of the work. [Zach laughs] And after the [?] is over, you know, unfortunately the burden of re-educating other people who went through the workshop who now thinks that they are quote-unquote "woke" or who say that they checked the box, right? "Okay, we went through this unconscious bias training, so now we're good. Now I'm back to being a progressive person who cares about this issue." [Zach laughs] You know, [it was?] a challenge to really think differently, but the burden of their action, their unchanging behavior, their unawareness, and they're now feeling like they know what they're talking about, falls on the most marginalized people in the room, and I think that was a frustration that kept coming up for me as I was going through different types of trainings, whether that was done by external vendors or internal people, that people weren't pushing people enough, and I genuinely felt the need for a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations, and that's our mission statement, to create a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations to developing inclusive leaders and teams, and the way that we do that is by centering the needs of the most marginalized people, meaning we don't pat on ourselves on the back when a workshop goes well from the perspective of a bunch of white men saying that that workshop was great, you know? That may be true, but if, you know, the one black person in the room says that that workshop wasn't good while a bunch of white people say that the workshop was great, we don't pat ourselves on the back for that, right? But if we can support the most marginalized people in the room, you know, in tech and also in many other spaces as predominantly black and brown folks, trans, queer, people of color, if they give us the stamp of approval, if they feel like they were seen and heard and lifted and that they didn't have to do all the work, that's success for us, right? So by designing our curriculum to speak truth to them and to, you know, have that frame of "Can we lessen the burden on people who are the most marginalized in these spaces by saying the things that they can't say because there are too many risks and repercussions that they fear?" That's our job, and I don't think enough D&I practitioners out there are taking that approach, because, you know, if they're internal, their job is at risk. I get that. So I think as a third-party, we coming in--we have a different level of risk that we get to take because we don't have that kind of repercussion that we need to worry about, besides not being able to come back to that place again.Zach: Right. And, I mean, at that point that, you know, they don't let you back, I mean, you already got the bag anyway, so... [cha-ching sfx] You know? Michelle: [laughs] Well, and usually we can come back, because we don't often take on one-off workshops. I think that approach is pretty harmful, and, you know, companies come to us and say, "Hey, we just want to do a one-day, like, [?]." We tend to say no to those engagements because we really believe in delivering impact and working with people who are genuinely interested in real change. So, you know, I think the mistake people make is thinking that meeting people where they're at needs to be done by diluting the message. I don't think that's true. You can meet people where they're at with compassion and criticality. So you don't have to coddle people, but I think you can be compacted and make your content accessible for folks that they understand and they can move along the journey while feeling and embracing some tension and discomfort that comes with challenging their beliefs.Zach: So it's funny, because you see, like, even in, like, our current political tone and tambor today from, like, mainstream media, it's still around, like, the idea of respectability and quote-unquote kindness, kind of pushing against this idea of, like, call-out culture or just, like, keeping it real, like, just saying how things are, and it's interesting, and I hear what you're saying about, like, coddling versus accessibility. Do you have an example of what it looks like to effectively call something for what it is while at the same time making it accessible for folks to actually grasp and understand. Like, I don't think there's enough work that you could do to cater to or mitigate against fragility, but I would love to hear, like, kind of what Awaken does and, like, what that looks like for you.Michelle: Mm-hmm. Hm, let me think of an example. I think that's a great question, and I'd love to be able to contextualize it just a little though with an example. I think--I don't know why this example keeps coming up in my head. I think it's because we're designing a curriculum right now around inclusive interviewing practices, and one of the common questions that comes up is this idea of not lowering the bar and hiring in this sort of notion of meritocracy, and I think, you know, one way to approach that is really sort of making the person who said that feel like they don't know what they're talking about and, you know, calling them racist and all of that... I think is one way. [both laugh] I think another way could be really helping unpack why meritocracy doesn't currently exist, even though that is an ideal that we can strive for together, and how people who are currently in companies today may not have been hired purely based on merit. Zach: And how do you prove that though?Michelle: How do you prove that?Zach: Yeah.Michelle: I think there's a lot of data that actually backs up the claim around how meritocracy doesn't exist. I mean, what we often talk about is that, you know, meritocracy is a concept that was created as a vision that we can all work toward, but we falsely believe that right now there is sort of meritocracy in a sense, but there's lots of data that shows that actually there's a lot of biases in the hiring process, whether it's from the referral stage or, you know, the interview stage or the deliberation stage. I think there's a lot of data that actually shows discrepancies in the ways that we make decisions, and I think, you know, calling that out specifically I think is really helpful. I think the harmful alternative of sort of diluting that fact of, you know, not having meritocracy is that I have sometimes heard, you know, folks explain that to people in a way that actually equates hiring people of color or women as lowering the bar and that being sort of the, you know, unfortunate short-term solution. Like, yeah, but we need to hire more people of color and women, so, you know, we want to make sure that we are getting that quota filled. So I think there's, like, a lot of weird ways of people explaining difficult concepts to make people feel comfortable, because the discomfort in this conversation is the fact that you may not have been hired based on your merit, right? I think that's the tension, is that if we debunk meritocracy, people who have these jobs in higher-paying positions, they are feeling attacked because they feel like they warrant--they didn't get to where they are purely based on merit, and recognizing that they've had privileges that weren't afforded to another demographic groups, I think that in and of itself is the discomfort, and I think a lot of folks have a hard time calling that out, because we're then directly sort of highlighting the fact this may be an awful position that they're in. And I think talking about privilege in general is something that's really difficult for people. It's not an easy topic for any of us to really grapple with, but I think if we can't have those tougher conversations where we are directly highlighting and shining light on the fact that, you know, there are--"Yes, we worked hard, and there are struggles that we didn't have to go through to get to where they are." I think if that conversation doesn't happen, it would be a huge miss.Zach: You know, Michelle, when you and I first spoke, you know--we do our thing, we try to get to know each other first, and then we do the episode. A little bit of background behind the scenes for y'all, but anyway, when you and I first spoke we talked about people of color and that term, right? And we had conversations about Living Corporate and how, you know, we don't really use the term "people of color," we say black and brown. And then you and I had a conversation about how you don't really consider, or you don't count, Asian-American or, like, that space, East Asian, in the "people of color" category. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?Michelle: Yeah. I think that's a great question. So I think, just to clarify, I do count Asians as a part of the people of color community, but I think there's context that we need to put into place whenever we're using the term. So I think the term people of color is a useful term when we're talking specifically about non-white people in the context of talking about white supremacy and how that impacts all people who are not white who experience racism and other forms of oppression because of their race. Where I don't feel comfortable using the term people of color is when we're discussing specific issues that impact black and brown communities. For example, when we're talking about police brutality or the murders of black trans women, I think it's really important for us to be specific about who we're talking about, because as an East Asian person, I don't have the same type of fear or risk when I'm around police. I think that is really important for us to specify, and I think that understanding around how there are very specific forms of racism, like anti-black racism. I think that clarity is so needed in having this conversation in a more effective way, and also for, you know, Asian-American folks to be able to show up in solidarity with folks who are experiencing very specific forms of marginalization. Zach: I just... you know, one sound we don't have on the soundboard is, like, finger snaps. [snapping fingers] But I'ma put these in there. Yeah, I love it. And it's interesting because, you know, we're moving at the speed of the Internet when it comes to a lot of this stuff, right? And certain things become trendy or become--I don't know. They kind of just catch fire, and I think the term people of color, it has a place, and I've seen it be used interchangably when people are just talking about black folk, right? It's like, "Why are we using that term right now when--" If we're really talking about something targeted for black Americans, if we're talking about something that's targeted for Latinx trans Americans--these groups, as niche or as just unique or small as they may seem to you, these represent actual human beings. So I think it's great that we're using them, but sometimes for me--it sometimes almost gets used as, like, a catch-all, and you end up erasing a lot of identities and experiences and points of view.Michelle: Totally, and I think if we can't be specific about the actual issue, then how can we solution around it, right? If we can't name what the actual issue is? It's not police brutality against all people of color, right? It's [?] against black and brown people specifically, you know? People who are seen as a quote-unquote "threat" to cops. I think it's really important for us to get specific around that so that we can solution around it, because it wouldn't make sense for us to do--you know, to solve for all people of color experiencing police brutality because that's not true. I think, you know, when we talk about black maternal [debts?], that's not happening to Asian-Americans that it's happening to black folks who are giving birth. So, you know, I think specificity is important for solutioning the right outcomes, and also, like you said, it doesn't erase people's experiences. I think tech is starting to incorporate more of the term around underrepresented POC, because, you know, Asian-Americans are overrepresented in many tech companies, but, you know, Asian-American also, similar to POC, is a very broad terminology, so I'd love to be able to see some dis-aggregated terms that we can use to also talk about underrepresented Asian-Americans. But yeah, I think specific language is always helpful in most cases, and I think there's also purpose to the term people of color when we can really mobilize and build a coalition across all people of color.Zach: I think it's just so interesting. I do think a function of white supremacy is, like, keeping things as surface as possible so that--because the more surface you can be, like, to your point, the less specific and targeted you can be in your solutioning, and if you're not targeting your solutioning, then you're not really gonna be able to affect true change. 'Cause, you know, and the last thing about this in terms of, like, just keeping things general and grouping people all together is, like--I know that in Europe there's a term that's called... it's black--it's like people of color to the max, right? So it's called "BAM," black, Asian, and Middle-Eastern. Like, what is that? Michelle, like, that's--that is nuts. You can't--huh? Like, when someone told me that--like, I just learned about this maybe, I don't know, like, a couple months ago. Like, a colleague told me, and I said, "How is that possible?" Like, those are thousands of identities and experiences and cultures and languages and histories. Like, how are you just going to just lump--so you're just gonna take all the non-white people and put 'em in one big cluster? Huh? Considering the history of, like, colonialism and, like--oh, my gosh. Like, that's nuts. You can't do that. And so, anyway... okay, okay, so from this conversation, what I'm hearing, I don't think that we always give, like, members of the majority enough credit in their ability to have an honest conversation when it's framed effectively, right? I think a lot of times it's kind of like, "Well, we don't want to bring that up because then that makes people uncomfortable," or "We don't want to bring that up because then they shut off," and it's like... eh. I mean, yes, people are fragile, but, like, come on. We've got to be able to have some type of--some level of authentic conversation around something. So that's--Michelle: Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as giving them credit. [both laughing] You know? I think there is a reason why--you know, why people are hesitant to have that conversation. I think it's because of the backlash. It's because of the fragility and it's because of [?] and also frankly the repercussions that people face. So I think while we sort of finesse the way that we deliver certain messages without losing the criticality but also having compassion and being accessible, what we also need to be doing is building the resiliency on the part of the dominant or the privileged group so that we can receive that information and check their fragility or check their defensiveness, and I think that education needs to be more prioritized than the other stuff.Zach: I agree, and thank you. Thank you for pushing back. [laughing] I do think there's a low level of fluency and stamina, right, when it comes to these conversations, and it's interesting because I just read an article, and it was published on Salon, and it was called "Diversity is for white people: the big lie behind a well-intended word." Have you read that yet?Michelle: I have not.Zach: Yo, I'ma send this to you. But it's just interesting because it's really this conversation in a really tactful rant form just around, like, how D&I is often phrased today, and it's, like, phrased with, like, white comfort in mind as opposed to the perspective and experiences of the marginalized in mind, and so I just find that very interesting. Okay, so look, you're the first East Asian-American person that we've had on the show, and so first of all, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to you. [air horns sfx] You know, shout-out to you for that and just being here, you know? [coin sfx] Michelle: Thank you for having me. I'm honored.Zach: Nah, I'm honored. I mean, I'm excited. I think there's this--like, despite civil rights history and all of the work especially done, like, within California, L.A., Oakland, in the '60s, and of course, like, during the era of the Black Panthers, there's this stereotype that Asian-Americans don't really care about social justice. Like, have you heard this before, and, like, why do you think that that is?Michelle: Yeah. Yes, I have heard that before, and I continue to hear it quite often. I think something that I hear when I meet people for the first time and I talk about what I do and we get to know each other a bit better, a weird sort of form of compliment or they think it's a compliment that they pay me is this fact that, you know, I'm one of the unique ones, right? Like, "Oh, wow. I've never met another Asian person who is like you," or "I'm so glad you're doing this work, because we need more Asian people doing this," and I have mixed emotions about that, because while I appreciate the acknowledgement of the work, I think that there's also this continuing erasure of the historical work that different Asian-American activists have done, whether that's the labor movement that was led by Filipino activists or folks marching [?] or even current activists working as prison abolistionists who are Asian-American racial justice organizer or disability justice organizers like [?], queer trans [?] activists. I think there's a lot of folks who are doing really radical work who continually get erased, so it leaves sort of a bitter taste in my mouth when I hear that because I think that with that simple sentiment we're erasing so much of history and current work that's being done. I also think that some of that comment is valid in that, you know, I do see a lot more work that can be done on the part of Asian-Americans specifically. You know, East Asians in tech is sort of the reputation that I hear about where people can be more active in doing D&I work or social justice work, and I think there's a real sort of lack of awareness or even the sense of solidarity amongst Asian-Americans in what their place is, like, what our place is in this conversation around social justice activism. So I think it's a complex topic. I do think that we can do more. I think all groups can do more, and I think there's a serious lack of education around Asian-American history and sort of--even the current facts around, you know, the struggles that Asian-Americans are going through, that if more Asians knew about that and if more Asian folks found commonality between our oppression and other marginalized communities' depression that we may be able to build a coalition to do more amazing work.Zach: One, thank you for--that's a really thoughtful answer. All of your answers have been very thoughtful. It's almost like you're very... awake. [haha sfx] What's really interesting, to your point around just, like, history, is as much as the Black Panthers--I really think that the way that we think about--and when I say we, I mean just, like, Americans, right? Like, the way that Americans categorize and think about the Black Panthers has to be, like, some of the most effective example of American government propaganda, right? Like, we think of Black Panthers as the equivalent of the KKK, like, the black equivalent, like they're these terrorists and that it's just full of these angry black people, and we don't think about the fact that Richard Aoki was--he was a founding member of the Black Panthers, right? Asian-American. And he's not, like, this ancient figure. Like, he passed away in 2009, but we don't really talk about that, and I'm really curious as to--'cause, like, the Black Panther Party, and, like--not the new Black Panther Party, but the initial, original Black Panther Party was not, like, hundreds of years ago, and so it's just so interesting how we are uneducated, right? We're uneducated just on civil rights history, and we're certainly--I don't remember in high school or in college hearing anything about Asian-American participation or engagement in the civil rights movement. That was not anything that I remember being taught, nor do I remember that being something that was, like, readily available for me to learn, you know?Michelle: Right. And I think that lack of education is within the Asian-American community itself, right? I think I feel like sometimes I know more about, you know, black history than my own sort of Asian-American history here in the U.S., and I'm an immigrant, so I think I grew up with a different set of history lessons. So there's a lot of catching up for me to do as well, and I think that the--I mean, even in the school system, I'm sure you've been talking to your guests around the lack of real education around what really happened in history too, right? Not just for Asian-Americans, but for, you know, black Americans and, you know, Latinx Americans. I think there's a lot of, you know, untrue history that's being taught to our youth, which is problem #1, and I also think there's a lot of internalized racism and oppression that exists in the Asian-American community, and there's a lot of complex topics that I don't know if we have time to get into, but things like the--Zach: Well, pick one. Let's go. I have time.Michelle: You know, the myth of Asians being closer to white people and the sort of model minority myth, and that's a very prevalent stereotype, and I think there's a lot of interrogating that we need to do when we talk about those things around, "Well, who were the initial group of Asian-Americans that were allowed to come to the country? What were the ramifications of that? What are some of the current statistics that we can talk about, even in the workplace, around Asian-Americans being the least likely group to advance to senior leadership positions even though they are overrepresented in industries like tech and, you know, [?] in an analyst position?" "How does that impact the continuing stereotypes and narratives around Asian-Americans?" Being good at math, and, you know, I think there's a lot of complex, intertwined stories that we tell about our people, Asian-Americans, and also we're combining an entire continent when talking about Asian-Americans as this monolith of a people when if we were to dis-aggregate that data, there's actually a ton of lessons to be learned around who's actually marginalized within the Asian-American community, right? I recently learned that 1 in 7--I think that's the stat--1 in 7 Asian-Americans are undocumented, and they're the fastest-growing population that's undocumented in the United States currently, but we don't hear about that, right? We don't hear about that narrative, and I think the way that white supremacy works is this sort of untrue and erasing of different stories that make the people of color the collective question and also not able to work alongside each other, and I think that's the--the most difficult thing that I see in the sort of solidarity that we need to be able to move the needle on this work is that there's so much of a lack of education on everyone's part, including myself, that we need to do a lot of work to be able to, you know, truly practice that solidarity with each other.Zach: Man. You know, and, like, Michelle, you've been just casually dropping just bombs, like, this whole conversation, right? So I just gotta give you at least one. [Flex bomb sfx] 'Cause it's been ridiculous. But one thing you said--and it brought something back to my memory. So I'm not gonna say the consulting firm. If y'all want to look on my LinkedIn, y'all can make a guess as to where this was. It's not the one that I'm at right now, but I'll never forget, Michelle, I was at a team dinner--this was some years ago--and we were talking about... so, you know, I'm at the table, and then there's senior leaders, and then there's, like, super senior leaders, and there's me, and I was, like, a junior-level person at this point in time, right? This was, like, five or six years ago. And so I'm a pretty junior person, and there's somebody in there talking about this one particular employee, and they said, "Oh, Insert Name Here is the perfect little Asian. He just does exactly what I tell him to do. He does his work and then he goes home." And I remember I was just eating my dinner--I literally stopped, I looked at the person who said it and was like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe you just said that." And she looked at me, and then you could tell that she, like, quickly averted her eyes and was kind of, like, "Oop--" You know, like, she got caught, but just that idea of this subservient just worker bee that just does whatever I tell them to do... that just stuck with me forever. I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's not--I'm still flabbergasted by that, as you can tell, and I told my coach. I said, "Hey, this is not okay," right? I said, "This is what happened." And they were like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't have heard that." I was like, "No, no, no. It's not about me shouldn't have hearing it. Like, they shouldn't have said that, but beyond them saying it, they shouldn't believe that." So yeah, I just wanted to share that. Like, I'll never forget me hearing that. And, like, they were talking about the person like they were a--you know, like a resource, and, you know, they call talent that in consulting, resources, but in a genuine, like, piece of property [way], right? And it makes you just question, like, "Well, damn, okay. You felt comfortable enough to say this at a team dinner." And it was a white woman, by the way. But, like, you felt comfortable enough saying this in, like, a mixed group at a team dinner. Like, God forbid, what are you saying about me, what are you saying about other people, what are you saying about this person in, like, more private settings, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right. Well, the scary thing though is that sometimes that kind of trope or narrative is almost seen as a compliment, as if we should be celebrating that. "Well, you know, why is it so bad for us to say Asians are good workers or Asians are good at following orders?" And what have you. I think sometimes that trope gets weaponized to divide the people of color community even further, which is--you know, I think we saw that divide also in the recent affirmative action case, right, where Asian-Americans--there were arguments on both sides around how Asians are being discriminated against for getting good grades and all of that kind of unfortunate, annoying [?], but that's a conversation for another time.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And to be specific for our listeners who may not be abreast, recently that was the affirmative action case that went before Harvard, correct?Michelle: Correct.Zach: Yeah, and so it was interesting--so, like my perspective, as I was kind of, like, reading and understanding it was, like, some people were saying--so I'm on this app called Fishbowl... this is not an ad, but Fishbowl is, like, this anonymous posting app for consultants and other, like, different industry professionals, and people on there were talking about the case, and so basically the commentary was, "Yeah, you're excluding us and you're letting in these black and brown people who aren't smart enough to get in, but you're trying to fill in these racial quotas." And I was like, "Wow." I don't think that that's the point, and I think the data showed that the people who are the most advantaged by this current system of applications and acceptances were legacy students, right? It was people that--but again, like, to your point, then you'd see people arguing, then you'd see black and brown people arguing with Asian-Americans about, you know, "Well, we deserve to be here--" Again, I think that's--white supremacy is winning again when we start having those types of... when it starts devolving in that way, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right, exactly. And I think it also comes from the fact that a lot of people don't understand the point of affirmative action and why it got started in the first place. It's almost like people think that we're just trying to fill quotas or, you know, have diversity for the sake of diversity, but I think this is where the concept of D&I falls short 'cause we're not actually ever talking about justice and correcting past mistakes or historical oppression. So I think there's a lot of conversations that we need to have that we're not having right now around this concept of justice and sort of historical wrong-doings being corrected with some type of mechanism, and I think similar conversations, you know, are being had in tech and other industries where they're focused on quote-unquote "diversity recruiting" where folks are talking about that concept of, you know, lowering the bar for the sake of diversity and, like, all of that stuff I feel like are interconnected and they're just happening in different spheres, and I think for me it's always coming back to the lack of basic communication around history and social justice concepts and people not understanding how all of these struggles are connected. I think there's just a lot of room for improvement in how we're talking about these issues.Zach: You know, we gotta have you back to talk about the connection--like, to really talk about justice in diversity, equity and inclusion work, because, like, I have all these questions, but I want to respect your time. [both laugh] So let's do this. First of all, let's make sure we have you back. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod.Michelle: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, no, straight up. So thank you for being here with us today. Now, look, y'all--now, I don't know what else y'all want from me. I'm talking to the audience now. You know, look, we come at y'all, we bring y'all some amazing guests, you know, we're having these really dope conversations. I mean, [what more do you want from me? sfx] what more do you want? Like, I'm not even trying to martyr myself. I'm just saying, like, "What do you want?" And when I say me, I mean Living Corporate. Like, you see this guest. Michelle Kim is a beast. Like, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. Now, look, before we get out of here though, Michelle, I have just a couple more questions. First of all, where can people learn more about Awaken?Michelle: You can learn more about Awaken at our website, www.visionawaken.com. You can also follow on Twitter @AwakenCo and our blog. Please check out our blog on Medium, www.medium.com/Awaken-blog. I'm all on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. You can follow me. I also have an Instagram. So all of the social media platforms there's gonna be me or Awaken, so please follow us and subscribe to our newsletter.Zach: All right, y'all. Now, look, she said all the stuff. Mm-mm, hold on, 'cause you're probably driving or you're doing something, you know? You're in your car or maybe you're typing something up on your phone, but what I really need y'all to do is I need you to stop... [record scratch sfx] and check out the links in the show notes, okay? Make sure y'all hit up all those things. I want y'all clicking on them links like [blatblatblatblat sfx]. You know, check them out, okay? We'll make sure we have everything right there for you. Now, Michelle, any shout-outs or parting words before you get out of here?Michelle: Well, I think we're living in a really interesting time right now. There's a lot going on in so many different communities and our society, so my shout-out is to everyone who is doing their best to survive and to thrive to take care of themselves, to stay vigiliant, to educate themselves, and to be in community with people that care about you. I think that's so important in this climate. One last shout-out I want to give is to this new initiative that I'm a part of called Build Tech We Trust. It's a coalition of different CEOs and tech leaders who have come together to say enough is enough around white supremacy spreading online on social media platforms and other tech platforms. It was founded by Y-Vonne Hutchinson and Karla Monterroso of Code2040, and check out our work. We're doing some really important work to build coalition around this issue of radicalization happening on tech platforms. So Build Tech We Trust, and I can send you the URL so you can link it.Zach: Please do. Y'all, this has been--first of all, Michelle, again, thank you. Great conversation. We look forward to having you back, because we will be having you back. If you would like to come back--it's not a directive, you have agency. Michelle: [laughing] Of course. I'd love to. I'd be honored.Zach: Okay, super cool. Listen, y'all. This has been the Living Corporate podcast. You know, make sure you check us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then--now, the websites. Now, look, y'all hear me rattle off all these websites every time - livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, right? Livingcorporate.us I think we even have. We have every livingcorporate, Michelle, except livingcorporate.com, but we do have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, if you have any questions or any feedback for the show, just hit us up. We're at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on DM. All of our DMs are wide open for your convenience. That's right. We take on the emotional labor of keeping our DMs open so that you can reach out to us, okay? So you hit us up and you let us know if you need anything. If there's anything else, just Google us, right? Type in Living Corporate on your browser. We're gonna pop up. We're on all the different streaming mediums. Make sure to tell your momma about Living Corporate, your cousin, or your weird uncle, or your racist uncle at Thanksgiving. So you make sure you--come on, shoot the link over. We got all kinds of stuff on there, so we out here, okay? What else? I think that's it. Shout-out to Aaron [thank you], shout-out to all the listeners, and God bless y'all. Or, you know what I'm saying, bless y'all, 'cause I'm not trying to offend anybody, but bless y'all, okay? And what else? I think that's it. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Michelle Kim, founder, educator, activist, public speaker, and of course CEO of Awaken. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach discusses building learning communities with ChangeNerd CEO and founder Brian Hampton. Brian talks a bit about ChangeNerd, a digital learning community that supports change management practitioners and inspires innovation, and he also offers some advice for black and brown folks who are looking to build a learning community of their own.Connect with Brian on LinkedIn!Check out ChangeNerd's home page and follow them on LinkedIn! Want to become a member of the community? Click here!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now look, you know what we do. We have authentic conversations about being black and brown in the corporate space. Now, corporate space makes it sound really fancy, right? Like you're wearing a suit and a tie, you know, maybe sometimes you have to actually put some lotion on your ankles. That's not what I mean, right? I just mean the place that you actually have to work, right? Living Corporate is a place that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, okay? And how do we do that? We do that with authentic conversations with black and brown executives, entrepreneurs, influencers, educators, public servants, creatives, activists, right? And we do that in just, like, one-on-one conversations, sometimes we'll do a two-on-one, sometimes we'll do a three-on-one, sometimes we have, like, a--you know, we mix it up, but the point is we're having real talk, and that's why our tag line is what? Real talk in a corporate world. All of that being said, y'all know we're having dope conversations every time y'all hear this podcast, and today is no different. Today we're talking to Brian Hampton. Brian is the CEO and founder of ChangeNerd, a company that supports change management practitioners and inspires innovation. Brian, welcome to the show. How are you doing, man?Brian: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Zach. I really appreciate it.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?Brian: Yeah. So, you know, I started ChangeNerd. It's primarily a digital learning community. I started it to really bring professionals together, because for us who do change management and help organizations adopt new ways of working, we really just tend to be heads-down, working on our projects, and I wanted to create a way for us to just connect and share best practices. Prior to launching ChangeNerd, I consulted at Deloitte. I also led change management teams at different companies, both private and non-profit. So I love the field. I'm super passionate about it, and I'm glad to talk about it today.Zach: Yeah, man. You know, and coming from a change background myself, you know, I don't see a lot of black men in this space, right? I don't really see a lot of black folks period, but I definitely don't see a lot of black men specifically and just black and brown men in general in the space. Can we talk a little bit about, of all the professions you could have chosen, like, what about change management got you?Brian: Yeah. This is real cool, this is real cool. Nice question, and--great question, actually. So I went to college in undergrad for criminal justice and then soon realized there was no real money behind it, and so I jumped into HR, jumped into the federal government, and at around 2008, 2010, I felt like HR was kind of flat, and then I was introduced to change management because the agency I was at at the time, we were implementing PeopleSoft, and so I was formally introduced to change management, and I really couldn't believe this was a full-time job, right? 'Cause it's really around just working with people and helping them, you know, really adopt new ways of working. And I'm like, "Wow, people get paid doing this?" So I did some research and saw that the pay was decent, and so I jumped into the field. So yeah, I thought--at the time I thought HR was boring, and change management seemed to be the new thing, and there's some really strong transferable skill sets from HR to change management, and so I took the leap.Zach: Man, you know, that's 100%, and it's interesting because my career was a little bit the same. I think we talked about this off the mic, but, like, I started as an HR manager at Target and then transitioned into org design and just being, like, a specialist, right? And then eventually formed all the way into change management. And you're absolutely right, a lot of it's transferable, but you know what's interesting? I think a lot of it isn't, because--I do agree that often times HR gets a tough rep as just being, like, the benefits folks, right? And kind of helping with ER issues, but really they're just kind of--they're almost like the security guards of the company, but they don't have a gun. They've got, like, a roll of quarters to call the peace when it gets really scary, you know? They might have a flashlight so that they can look at you while you're doing something wrong, but they don't really have any actual, you know... come on, man. Yeah, so anyway. Okay, cool. So look, we're talking today about building learning communities, right? ChangeNerd is a learning community, like you said at the top, but to start, like, how would you define a learning community, and what are the benefits of being in a learning community?Brian: Well, you know, quite honestly--and, you know, the whole theme of this podcast is corporate--you know, corporate living, and if you're in corporate, your organization is more than likely changing. It's using and bringing on new technology, new processes, you know, organizations are trying to be competitive, so all of that activity is happening, and what that means for the individual person is that you have to take ownership of your own journey, your own learning journey. And so the best way to do that is really tap into some type of social learning community, and that's part of the reason why I created ChangeNerd. There was nothing out there specifically for, you know, professionals who spend a lot of their time in project management, change management, and so I wanted to create a community for us folks. And, you know, what I'm noticing after doing this just for 12 months is that it's extremely beneficial. We got thousands of people in the community, both at the executive level and, you know, practitioner level, and the people love the community because they can take charge and, you know, tap in whenever they want to tap in. It's LinkedIn on a much smaller scale, you know? And there's beauty in having access to like-minded people. So if you're on a project and you're struggling, you know you're only a button away or an email away from getting help, and that's what it's all about, and for us, we tend not to have those strong networks when it comes to corporate, and so--you know, I'll be honest with you. I'll share this story. Deloitte was--working at Deloitte was the hardest--and it was fun, but it was extremely difficult, primarily because I didn't have that network. Even tapping into, you know, the African-American BRG, it's still tough for us to connect with the right people, people that we can trust in the corporate atmosphere. And so, you know, yeah, you go to work every day and you build a network there, but there's nothing like building an even broader network outside of your organization to give you the confidence you need to be successful.Zach: Man, you know, you're 100% right. And it's interesting. Like, as organizations, or just as technology continues to grow... like, at first the draw of technology and, like, social networking was size, right, and scope. Like, "You can reach anybody anywhere!" Like, you know, big numbers were attractive, right? So if you could say--you know, you say LinkedIn, like, millions of people use LinkedIn every day, right? But then, like, the disconnect is "Okay, what does it look like for me to actually touch somebody?" 'Cause I don't really need to touch a million people. I [may only?] really need to touch, like, 15. So what do I need to do to make sure that I can actually touch those, you know, less than 20 people that I actually need? And so it's just interesting as you see, like, communities change or digital communities change and evolve that, you know, we're noticing that size isn't everything, you know what I mean?Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, building a community around, you know, your role or your aspirations professionally, it's an ongoing journey, and what I will say is--here's the major benefit, right? If you got 100 people, because you were diligent, and let's say you spent, you know, three to six months really building a community around you or tapping into an existing one, and you now have 100 people that you trust that you know you can reach out to. If you get laid off, if you want to go independent and start your own agency. You know, if something bad happens to you, you've got 100 people who got your back, and that's what it comes down to. I can't--you know, just in doing this community, you know, ChangeNerd, I can't tell you the amount of people that I've been able to help, you know? So-and-so got laid off? Oh, I know this partner at this firm, right? And there's a trust that's built. And so, you know, submitting your resume becomes more of a--it's something that happens afterwards, right? Because of trust, that organization is pretty much gonna bring you on, right? And so your resume becomes a formality after the fact, and so, like, that's the beauty of having a network and being tapped in to a digital learning platform or any social learning community that you have.Zach: Yeah, man. You know, it's interesting. You talked about some of your challenges at Deloitte and, like, the barrier being you not having that community, formally or informally, right? So, like, based on your experiences, what advice or, like, what lessons learned would you be able to share and kind of what would you be able to give to black and brown folks today who are looking to build those types of spaces for themselves for their own professional development?Brian: To be honest with you, it's a journey. It's a journey, and the reality is you don't know what you don't know. Years ago when I was at Deloitte, I don't think I had the right mindset, you know? You know, they hired me for a job, you know, primarily to do deliverables on projects, and that's what I did, but to be successful, there are--there are so many other competencies there, you know? You've got to be able to manage up. You've got to be able to build relationships. And, you know, when it comes to corporate, a lot of times, you know, I know for me and probably for the folks that are listening to this podcast, sometimes you may be one of the few black or brown people in a room, and it's difficult to raise your hand, and it's difficult to bring your perspective without being judged, but over time with the right experiences you get really good at it. But honestly, I don't know if there's any advice that I can give to anyone other than, you know, go for it. Continue to build your network out. But ultimately, it's your journey, and you have to own your own learning process, regardless of what type of, you know, leadership development programs you find yourself into. You have to own your own learning. Tapping into a network is beneficial, but just recognize that relationship building and having the ability to build trust with others, those are the things that you'll learn along the way.Zach: Man, well, let's do this. Let's talk about ChangeNerd, because I do get folks who hit me up, right? I have old colleagues, I have people in different, like, just social networks who hit me up about getting into change management. Let's talk about ChangeNerd, you know, why the name, the journey you got there, and then just where people can learn more about it.Brian: Yeah. So it's funny, I knew I wanted to bring--well, I'll tell you this. Me and the team, we were building an app. So we built this nice, sophisticated change management app, and as I was trying to sell it to different companies I realized that change management teams didn't really have the budget for it, so we scrapped it. But I ran into--I live in the Chicago area. I found six large companies all implementing SAP all struggling at the same point in time, right? And it was that moment where I realized "Wow, I need to build a community, because we're just working way too siloed." So I launched the community. And the community is free to join, and every week I interview a subject matter expert around--and we talk about some area surrounding organizational best practices, and every so often we offer virtual courses and we also offer in-person events. And so, you know, when people think of ChangeNerd, I want them to think about the learning community, because at the heart that's what it is. We pay the bills by consulting different companies, but we try to spend the bulk of our time just enriching the learning community.Zach: Well, that's incredible, man. So talk to me about where--at what point did you realize that ChangeNerd was, like, "Okay, wow. This is something serious." Like, this is an actual--so I'm not gonna say it's a movement because that's mad corny.Brian: It is. [laughs]Zach: It's mad corny. People always--man, sidenote. Man, people always talking about "it's a movement, it's a movement." So many--how is everything moving? Brian: I know, I know. So let me tell you how I knew it was real. It got real for me when I got an email. I got an email from an HR VP that said "Hey, Brian. We want to fly you to Boston, and we want you to do a series of workshops for our supply chain leadership," right? That's when it got real for me. So I replied back. I'm like, "Do you have budget?" And they told me the budget, and via email within, like, literally 5 minutes we negotiated budget. That's when it got real for me, because what I found out was when you tap into a community or if you build a community, right, you're automatically building trust with people, right? And so when they see you they trust you because you're giving out good insight, you're giving out--you know, you're helping them, and when opportunities pop up they reach out to you. And so, you know, first it started out as a speaking engagement, right? And I didn't have to give them documents and compete with other firms. They wanted me. That's when I knew. I told my wife, "Honey, this is--like, this is real money," right? And then the phone calls came, you know? Head of IT from this company, head of HR from this company. "Brian, we want to get your perspective," right? And they knew that, you know, I wasn't gonna do it for free, and so they came with the budget, and so it's just--when you have that network of people, you're able to help people, and they can help you as well. And so to be honest with you, that's how I knew that this could be something real, when I started getting emails of different companies, from different companies, that needed my help.Zach: Well, talk to me about what you've been most excited about that ChangeNerd has accomplished, and as you look at 2020, what are you most looking forward to?Brian: Yeah. So when it comes to change management, you have major training companies really trying to control the narrative. You have--I won't call out any names here, but you have companies, you know, controlling the narrative. What I'm so proud of is with me interviewing different subject matter experts every week, it just opens the opportunity for the narrative to change, right? And so for change management not to be come, like, an academic exercise. And so for people not to be locked into one particular framework, and for more stories and experiences to be told. As we move into 2020, we're going to get a little bit more niche. We're gonna have little--well, not little, but smaller digital communities. So change management in health care, change management in non-profits, change management in financial services. We're gonna have digital communities by industry, by specialty, just to give people access to more practical advice. So that's something I'm looking forward to as we move into 2020.Zach: All right, man. Now, look, I wouldn't be a platform if I didn't give you a space to actually plug ChangeNerd. So, like, where can we learn more about it? What's the content? What's the information? Of course we'll have it in the show notes, but go ahead and shout it out right here.Brian: Yeah. So you can dive right in to the online community by going to community.changenerd.com. Community.changenerd.com. That will put you right into the community. Go ahead and join. It's totally free, and I look forward to seeing you there.Zach: All right. Now look, everybody--y'all heard him, okay? So y'all driving, you walking, you're doing whatever you do, you heard what he said. Community.changenerd.com. It'll be in the show notes. And y'all be clicking the links. We look at the Bit.lys. We see that y'all clicking stuff, but you ain't gotta do it. You heard me, right? So you heard Brian, you heard Zach. Just go ahead and click that thing. Now Brian, before we let you get up out of here, any shout-outs or parting words?Brian: No. Zach, I love what you're doing, and it's podcasts like this that really help people like us move forward, so I appreciate the effort that you're doing. And if you're listening to this episode, I would encourage you to reach out to me, and hopefully I can be of help to you, and that's pretty much it. But Zach, I'm very proud of the work that you're doing.Zach: [air horns sfx] Man, them air horns is for you and for me, man. I appreciate you, man. I thank you, and I appreciate the work that you're doing, right? You're demystifying change management. You're creating a space for folks who are interested in change management and who are already established change management practitioners to engage, learn, and build. And this is not an ad. So yeah, just shout-out to you. Shout-out to ChangeNerd. And listen, y'all, this does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Thank you for checking in. Now look, y'all typically know I kind of put all the ats and stuff, but every now and then I just kind of flex on 'em, just a little flex. Sometimes I'll just say "Google us." [Flex bomb sfx] You know? Just Google Living Corporate. Just "Living Corporate," right? We're on everything. We're on all of the streaming platforms. We're on Instagram at @LivingCorporate. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, right? And then if you want to check out the website, again, just Google us, Living Corporate, or you can type it in the browser - living-corporate, please say the dash, dot com. We're also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net. We've got all of the livingcorporates except, you know it, livigncorporate.com, 'cause Australia has--Brian, Australia has livingcorporate.com, man. Brian: That's crazy.Zach: Ain't that crazy? Yeah. So listen, y'all. Appreciate y'all. Listen, if you have any questions, anything you want to learn about change management, make sure that y'all contact Brian. We're gonna put all of his contact information down in the show notes. Until next time, this has been Zach, and you've been talking to Brian Hampton, CEO and founder of ChangeNerd, a digital learning community for change management professionals. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with storyteller and strategist Deidre Wright about effectively building a leadership profile. Deidre shares what her leadership journey is looking like so far and talks about how staying true to her values helped her become the leader she is today. She also offers her thoughts about what some black and brown folks are doing that could be hindering them in their leadership development journey.Connect with Deidre on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram!Check out her website!Visit Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, you know what we do, okay? We come on the show and we have real talk about real things. These real things are actually fairly benign on their face, right? But we take these fairly real topics, and they're real, or rather we make them real, 'cause we're centering black and brown experiences. So today we're talking about building a leadership profile. Now, in building a leadership profile--you know what? I'm not even gonna do that. I'm just gonna go ahead and get into it with our guest, Deidre Wright.Deidre: Yes, that's right. [laughs] Hi.Zach: All right, come on now. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Deidre: [laughing] I'm good, Zach. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I've lived a corporate life for most of my career, so it's exciting to talk to you.Zach: No, thank you very much. I'm excited to have you on the show. And see, you know what I did is--those are bars, Deidre. So I said, "Deidre Wright," and you said, "That's right." See, I knew--Deidre: [laughs]Zach: Right? So I'm like--anyway, it's wordplay is all I'm saying. Okay, so for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Deidre: Yeah. So everyone, I'm Deidre Wright. I'm a Bay Area native, and I call myself a storyteller and a strategist because I worked across industries, but mostly what I do is empower clients to effectively tell their stories and create strategies, execute goals, and so I say this because I worked in public health, marketing, and risk management, and with all of those fields I can kind of used that skill set and my--that's my passion. So I graduated from Spelman College with a sociology and anthropology degree with the goal to make the world a better place. Graduated during the recession. It was a little challenging, but I was able to help kind of do that. And so I worked for Kaiser Permanente in public health research, working on a study, learning why girls start childhood puberty earlier. So why puberty is starting earlier and long-term [who?] gets breast cancer, and communicating findings with the public, and then I transitioned to marketing because I found that without a clear call to action people don't really make changes. So I was doing internal marketing for McKesson, helping employees sell their services, and then I landed on insurance, really at first advising [?] companies on their risk management and how to improve that for their companies and later now be, you know, an award-winning director of diversity and inclusion helping companies in insurance promote and advance diversity and inclusion.Zach: You know what? You just had so many just Flex bomb moments in there. First of all, you talked about the fact that you graduated from Spelman. Shout-out to all the Spelmanites, the Spelman Women. Deidre: Woo-woo!Zach: Come on, now. Don't--like, let's not play. [ow sfx] Okay? We gotta shout y'all out. [laughs] And then you had some big names in there. McKesson, Kaiser Permanente. That's incredible. So, you know, you talked about--you're talking a little about just kind of your journey. Again, you named some huge brands in there. I'm looking at your profile, and I'm just gonna look at, like, just the last year and a half, okay? So 2018 you got the NAAIA Emerging Leaders co-chair, your 2018 Dive In Festival San Francisco co-chair, and then you were the 2018 Water Street Club Insurance Rising Star and then the 2019 Insurance Careers Month Emerging Leader. Okay? And that's just, again, the last year and change, but it's relevant because like I said, today we're talking about building your leadership profile. I have a theory, right? And I could be--I could be crazy, 'cause I'm--I'm just looking at the field, Deidre. I don't--you know, I'm not a sociologist or any type of scientist. I'm just kind of looking at the space, right? And I have a theory that black and brown folks in corporate America spend a lot of time trying to make sure that we're just strong individual contributors because, you know, we're conditioned and taught to just do that and for a lot of us, like, the first generation of our families being in corporate America, right? But I believe as time continues forward and the millennial workforce increases and, like, its representation increases within the workplace and we age up in the workplace that there's gonna be a continued demand and opportunity for us to continue to really take on leadership positions. So can you talk a little bit about your journey in becoming a leader and, like, what has that looked like for you?Deidre: Yes, mm-hmm. And I'll have to have a little bit more Flex bomb. So, like I said, I work in the risk management and insurance field, but using my platform and my leader standpoint I've done a lot of fun things, including speaking at events where Barack Obama, Colin Powell, and America [Ferrera?] were on the line-up. Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa--Deidre: Yeah. [laughs, record scratch sfx]Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let me just pause you so I can do this. [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, continue.Deidre: Thank you. Then having viral LinkedIn, you know, posts, where I have one that has 23,000 views and the other one has 37,000 views, and I say this because no matter what industry or skill set, you can be a leader and use your influence to call attention to the cause that you care about. So what's my leadership journey looking like? I guess no matter what I always focus on setting goals, investing in myself, and taking strategic risks. And, you know, you heard my kind of bio. I've done a lot of different things in different fields, but I always stay true to my values, which was, you know, being strategic and storytelling. And so I say that because what happened was I was, like I said, a contractor for McKesson, and so my contract ended and I had my son the month afterwards. So my vision was take a couple months off, go back to McKesson, do my thing, but they had laid off a bunch of marketing people so I had no job to go back to, and that's when I was like, "Okay, I have a baby. I need to make money. Let me figure this out," and so that's when I kind of got back to my values and my goals, and I was like, "Okay, let me check out insurance and risk management--my mom was in the field, she is doing great--and really think, like, what do I want out of a career and start attacking that." So I started with informational interviews with leaders in the space, because I want to say, like, if you have the secret sauce, I want that recipe, and figuring that out for me. And then taking strategic risks to start and break in myself in the industry of taking jobs, and then once I got the position making the position my own and being a thought leader. The key thing to being a leader I would say that everyone is--figure out your craft and promote it on different channels to help people, whether it's, like, Living Corporate, you know, having this experience and teach people skills, but mostly make strategic moves to always figure out how to promote your expertise and level up by seeing or asking, "What experience in my career is gonna give me the highest ROI for career time?" So if I'm spending three years of my time on this project or 30 minutes speaking on a stage, what is the ROI for this? And that's kind of helped me navigate these different changes in marketing to, you know, insurance, being a broker, from a broker to diversity and inclusion. Having those key processes of assessing goals, being strategic, and, you know, seeing what's worth my time or not.Zach: Let's take a step back though, right? So everything you're saying, 100%. I get it. It makes sense to me. But what would you say to the person who's like, "Look, I don't really know what my focus or passion is. I'm just here. I'm just happy to be here." Like, what advice would you give to that person?Deidre: I would tell them to shift their mindset. Just being happy to be here is--I mean, what are you living a life of, scarcity or abundance? Like, yes, I understand--like I told you, I had a baby and no money. I was thinking like, "Dang," but I had to--I don't know if it was just my maternal instincts or just my hustle, I mean, I was like, "I've got to figure out how to make this work," and so I would just say level up your mindset and think about "Okay, if I'm here, yeah, I'm happy for the situation, but what do I want to do with it? Where do I want to be in three years? How much money do I want to make then? What kind of impact do I want to leave on this platform?" For example, when I was a broker, I always wanted to empower my clients and, like--let me be clear on what I mean by risk management. My clients were Airbnb and Lyft and Starbucks and UPS. Like, big, you know, global clients, and I say that because just like you and me, we want to protect ourselves, [and] we also want to reach goals. And so I would say manage your career like you're managing your risk in yourself and think about, "Okay, if I invest X amount of time in this place, what's the return gonna be for me in reaching my goals?" So I guess I would just say change your mindset to just be more than just happy to be there. Like, think "How am I gonna make this work to be happy and earn my worth?"Zach: I love that. You're absolutely right. You know, it's scary though, and I say this as someone who--I'm trying to put myself in, like, the other person's shoes, 'cause you and I, we vibe on that level because we both are like, "Look, I gotta go get it." I don't have any kids yet, but--[both laugh]--but I get it, right? I am married. It's like, "Okay, look, I gotta--" Like, this can't stop. Like, I gotta keep going, right? At the same time, I ask myself, "Okay, so for the folks who are not necessarily naturally as industrious," right, like, what are some of the, like, just kind of starting steps? And I hear you, right? What I'm hearing is it's about identifying "Okay, what do I want the next 18 months to look like? What do I want the next three years to look like?" And then, like, thinking with the end in mind, then kind of working backwards from there and then asking yourself and kind of asking perhaps a scary question of "Okay, well, then is what I'm doing getting me to that point? Yes or no?"Deidre: Mm-hmm.Zach: Okay. No, that's great. So, you know, it's interesting, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned in becoming a leader? And then if I could kind of take a step, like, a little bit below that, as you've been continuing to grow and navigate these spaces, what are things that you see, you know, our black and brown folks doing out there that can hinder them in their leadership development journey?Deidre: Yes. What I learned as a leader--which, it's funny, you know? It's probably like you, Zach. It's like you just do your job and you do it well, and I say that because I consider myself, like, a mentor or a helper, and it's great that I'm a leader, and I'll say that. You know, I take that role, but I just think ultimately it's figuring out what your purpose is and how you can live to that higher calling, but, you know, the real thing is 1. invest in yourself, whether that is taking the time to do the work--for example, like, when I was a broker, I would spend time, hours, reading insurance policies. Now, I don't know, Zach, if that's what you do for fun, but most people don't do that. But I was taking the time so I knew what the heck I was talking about, and I had that confidence in front of my client when I am the only millennial, only black person, only woman in the room. And so you've gotta take time to invest yourself. You know, I had an executive coach who was helping me, you know, through the program and to really figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do and when I was investing that time. Going to conferences, meeting people, networking. You have to do these things if you want to get far, and for us, you know, black and brown people, two things I would kind of say is 1. be strategic and understand no one is gonna invest time in you as much as you. So if you're waiting for your company to tap you on the shoulder saying, "I know you're gonna be a leader," yeah, that might happen passively, but only you can really give all of your effort into doing that. And then two, part of my job is that I organize events and plan them for the industry to I guess really just bond people and give them tools and resources for D&I through events and stuff. So for example, I'm planning a national diversity and inclusion conference that's coming up, and I say that because I look for speakers. I want speakers. I also judge a national woman in insurance award, [?], and so I assess and judge women leaders and their profiles to see who are worthy of these awards. Now, rarely do I see at our events people volunteering who are people of color or whoever to be speakers at events from a technical standpoint, you know? And rarely do I see people nominate themselves for awards. So the biggest thing is advocate for yourself and put yourself out there, because if you don't do that, then who will? So I think that's the biggest missed opportunity. Working hard's not enough. You've got to really advocate and promote your brand, because people want to help you. People want diverse leaders more than ever. I will tell you right now. Companies are investing in diversity and inclusion, and they want leaders. We just had a diversity survey, my company Business Insurance, studying diversity in our industry. We had over 800 people do it, and one fo the questions were what is the biggest barrier to increasing diversity in our industry, and for the second time around it was "we can't find minorities with the right skill set." And I don't necessarily believe that is my case. I just think it's perception. If people don't perceive there are leaders there, then they're not gonna tap you in for opportunities. So speak out and promote yourself to be that leader they see. Zach: No, 100%, and let me double-click on one thing you just said. I'm not gonna lie to you. What a huge pet peeve is, like, the whole "we don't have the pipeline, we don't see [them]." Like, so much of that is, like... if you just open your eyes, like, in today's era, right? So some of it is perception, how you present yourself, and there's a certain level of accountability that we have to take in terms of how we show up. At the same time--and I don't want to speak to insurance, 'cause that is a space that I'm not wholly familiar with, but I will speak to, like, technology, right? So okay, like, Facebook and other, like, larger technology firms will say, "Well, we have this diversity problem because we don't really have the pipeline," but the reality is there are tons of pockets of people, like Black Girls Who Code, Black Code Collective. There's all types of, like, groups out there and pockets, and there's black folks at these PWIs and HBCUs. There's organizations out there that do have the talent. I think the challenge is that what I'm not seeing, like, across the board is, like, a truly, like, intersectional and inclusive talent sourcing strategy when it comes to actually identifying that talent and then making sure that those folks are actually represented in terms of what does it look like for you to go out to those schools or engage these different groups or partner with these various organizations. Like, if you look in the same places for this diverse talent, then yeah, you may not find it, but if you actually just kind of broaden your scope a bit you may actually find the folks you're looking for, you know?Deidre: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I truly believe it, and that's one of the things I help, you know, my clients with is figure out where do you find this diverse talent. And diversity means so many different things to so many different people, and I know all industries are different, but I will say for us it's typically--they go to the same colleges because they typically want someone with a risk management degree. Risk management degrees are very--you know, they're not that often you find them. There's only a certain amount of schools, and those schools are not necessarily diverse. And mind you, the majority of people that come into our industry don't have interest in insurance or a risk management background. Like, I had sociology, right? But I did my job really well. So I'm like, knowing the statistics that the majority of people come in without this, I'm like, "Why would you narrow the focus?" So I think the first thing is find transferrable skills, companies, you know, and then people, be open to other industries besides your own that could be promising, because insurance is a couple trillion dollar industry. There's really a lot of interesting things going on right now. There's InsureTech, which is infusing technology with insurance. There's all these new risks out there, like with Bitcoin, and, you know, you have, you know, a shared economy and all kinds of fun stuff. So it's a lot of great things. So whether you're a company, find people with transferrable skills. Go to professional organizations, whether it is, like, you know, Ascent, Prospanica, National Black [?], and find people with the skill sets who obviously are leaders in their space but might not be leaders in your space. Also, look and see where else people are at, because--I don't know, maybe technology is a better judge [?] of this, but I'm like, "Are companies really leveraging social media and new forms of communication to find people?" A lot of times no, so that's what you gotta do.Zach: No, straight up. In fact, let me just go ahead and [straight up sfx, both laugh]. Yeah, I agree. Straight up. Man, that's a wonderful soundbite. So you talk a lot about inclusion and diversity within the context of leadership, and these are my questions, right? Can you 1. explain why I&D is important to you and then practical ways you reinforce and you would encourage other leaders to reinforce inclusive behaviors?Deidre: Yes. Why does it matter to me? Straight up I will just say it's because [both laughing] I was working in the industry, and my [?] a generation, so I quote-unquote belong here. We're very--I would say the industry typically is a lot of second-generation or multi-generation people in the industry, but I didn't actually feel like I belonged because, like I said, I didn't really see many people who looked like me. So just having that self-awareness, I'm like--and I was complaining, and someone was like, "Deidre, stop complaining." Like, "Do something." I got really involved in diversity and inclusion work, whether it was from volunteering or being part of organizations. So that was kind of--I had skin in the game, and I had to be the change I wanted to see, and I spoke at a lot of events about that. That's actually how I got my job, because I was on stage speaking at this event for my current company, and the CEO saw me and was like, "Deidre, I like your ideas," and that's why I promote people. If you have great ideas and solutions, go and speak and do that so you can find the right opportunities to be poached for those opportunities. But what are practical and tactical ways to be more inclusive? I would say diversify your network to the point you said of poaching talent or finding talent, but also who you mentor and who mentors you. So think about this. Yes, it is really important to have a person of color as your mentor in this space, but also it's good to have people who don't look like you. I try to, as much as possible, find mentors or colleagues who have different backgrounds, whether it's from they were in the military or they're male or they're white or whatever, but just different people. They give me perspective on things, and I find that very, very helpful, and also feedback on what they're receiving from me and my brand. Also I would say as a leader, if you're a manager or just anybody on a team, learn people's learning styles and how they communicate and bring out the best in them, because not everyone's extroverted, so they're not always gonna communicate how they feel, but maybe they're better in smaller groups or maybe they're great with projects and running with things, but don't assume that your way of communicating and doing things are the best. But I would just ask people, like, "Hey, what's the best to bring out your best so that we can get your A game at the office and that we can make sure you're satisfied?" And then lastly is speak up and speak out. If you're in a place of privilege in any aspect, I would address things, whether at a meeting and a woman's trying to talk and you're a man and someone's interrupting her--call that out, you know? Like, "Hey," you know, "I think Sheena wants to talk," or if you're a person in corporate--like, for me it's like, "Hey, I've been getting a lot of opportunities. How do I make sure I teach other women of color, people who are underrepresented, how to get speaking engagements so that they can have--I can see more diversity on this stage when I'm at events and not be the only one?" So I would just say speak out, diversify your network, and learn people's learning styles.Zach: I love that. And you're absolutely right, like, in terms of diversifying your network. So what I've learned--what I've been learning in my career is to have--as a black man--to have some white men in my network, right? And, like, I love it because--so I'm not trying to brag on myself. I'm just saying I really do like, enjoy, building authentic relationships, and I'm not gonna put--I'm not gonna make the block too hot for my friend so I'm not gonna drop his name, but I have a very good friend. He's a dear friend of mine, and we met at work. White guy, and, you know, a fairly conservative background, and I would just say, like, across the board, like, fairly conservative white man, and at the same time he and I met because he saw that I was being treated inequitably on a project, and he advocated for me, and that's how we became friends, and we've been friends for years now through that. But what's interesting is as I kind of talk to him about challenges I'm having or, like, "Man, I don't know how I would handle this," and I'm thinking about, like, all of these fairly, like, referential ways to do something or just, I don't know, kind of--like I'm choosing certain binaries because of--I don't want to say classically conditioned, but the way that I've been raised, I just think "Well, this is the way to do things." He's coming at it from, like, a different perspective. He's coming at it from a perspective of a privileged white man. So he's like, "Well, Zach, you don't have to do that. Just do this," and it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I would never even think to try that," right? And so it's, like, opening your eyes a bit. Something else you said now. I know you talked about, like, in meetings, right, when you said, like, if there's a woman talking, you as a man saying, "Hey, you know, I think she has something to say." Like, "Please, if you could give it a listen." I would also challenge that, if you're a white woman in those positions and you have, like, a black man or a [?] of color, use that privilege too, Cassandra. Becky. Charlotte. You know, just help us out, please, because we need it as well. I think there's some intersectionality that should be considered--Karen. There's another name. I was just trying to think of some other names. Anyway, so as we continue forward, right, and we talk a little bit about, like, relationships and networking, can we talk about, like, coalition building? You kind of alluded to it already, but its role in developing a leadership profile. So you talked about building this network, but, like, what does it look like for you historically to build mutually beneficial relationships? And do you have any examples of when those relationships have come into play to benefit you?Deidre: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say I always wanted to make things mutually beneficial. I just come from a standpoint--I don't like moochers, and I don't want to be a moocher. I just--I just think that it's kind of tacky, honestly.Zach: It is tacky.Deidre: It just turns me off, and it's bad for my brain to be like, "She's always asking for something but not returning it." So I've always kind of been that way. I will say my trick is--and it's not even a trick, it's really just what I do--I always end a conversation, meeting or whatever, asking people how can I be of service to them, because 1. it helps me know, like, how I can actually help them, and 2. it makes me think of who in my network can also help them. So I've connected a lot of people for business opportunities, job opportunities, just personal opportunities through having this network. "Oh, you want A? I know someone over there who can connect you with that," or "You want this," and so I would just say ask the question. It doesn't cost you a thing, but you might make an impact in how--it's always come back to help me. Like, I've never had a situation where it hasn't. 1. Either I made a new friend or had goodwill or 2. people reached out to me--like, I get a lot of referrals for business, whether it's for my job or for speaking opportunities or just leadership opportunities. I got an award for I guess being myself and being helpful to people and always leveling them up. I find that I'm stronger when I have a stronger circle around me, so I'm always trying to find who those people are, so I build it by--[coin sfx, Deidre laughs]--by, you know, being out there and publicly speaking. A lot of people I meet through Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, just the interwebs, because I put myself out there or I comment on what they're saying because it's compelling to me. And so there's different ways to have mutually beneficial relationships. I just think 1. you gotta be open to them, 2. you actually gotta follow up and do what you say you're gonna do, but when it comes to--like, I come from an abundance mindset. I don't ever think that it can't be more than one leader. It can't be more than one of us. So I think we all have to get out of the mindset of that "I can't help somebody else because I lose something." [and i oop sfx] You only have something to gain by helping somebody else out.Zach: Come on, now. I 100% agree. And you know what? And that's another point--you're absolutely right, like, about following up. Look, [both laugh] people send--Deidre: You know.Zach: I do know. Listen, look, I look at my little emails, and thank God--you know what? This is not an ad. Shout-out to y'all, Gmail, 'cause y'all do the whole thing. "You received this three days ago. Follow up?" That has helped me so much. I be in that inbox--I'm in that inbox like [bratbratbrat sfx]. I'm like--[both laugh].Deidre: Yeah, you're in there.Zach: I be following up. Like, "Hey, we had this conversation. I just wanted to circle back and make sure we're good." Deidre, you did that with me!Deidre: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: You gotta. Hey, you gotta do it. Life is crazy. Life is just so busy. It's important. Okay, so let's pivot a little bit. In your article "Why Strategic Companies Must Manage Diversity & Inclusion As A Business Risk"--it was recently published in Savoy Magazine--can we talk a little bit about the piece and what inspired that?Deidre: Yeah. So, you know, risk management is my background. It's always on my brain, whether it's from personal risk management to, like, company, and I say that because people think of risk always as a bad thing, but risk is--you know, based on the [?]--it talks about, you know, the possibility of a loss, no gain, or a gain. So you can have different levels of risk, and so with diversity and inclusion, it can--if you do it right, it can help you gain [?]. If you do it wrong, it can be harmful. And let's be clear, we see all of these things in the news, all of these headlines, and people are failing with diversity and inclusion, and I just want to help educate the consumer and companies and people about why this has to be a strategic risk and opportunity. So let's look at, you know, the news. So Papa John's, he's going over here saying the N word, you know, during conference calls, had to step down as a leader, and from that incident, you know, within a month their store sales fell 10%. You know, Dolce and Gabbana, they had a situation where they had a model, you know, who was Asian looking like she was eating, like, pizza with chopsticks, and, like, it was inappropriate, and then calling, like--and then what happened was they had to cancel a fashion show. Consumers were, like, destroying their products, and then their products were removed from different platforms in China. Like, Chinese magazines, Alibaba, whatever, and then another case is, you know, the Conrad Miami, a hotel out there, they discriminated--a manager discriminated against a woman. She asked to have Sundays off when she started the job because of her religious reasons. They ended up having to pay her punitive damages of $21 million, you know, and others for lost wages because she was fired as a retaliation for wanting to go to church, and she asked for tha ttime off. And so I say this because when it goes wrong, it costs companies money.Zach: You're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, Angry Orchard. So they just recently had a situation where they interrupted this couple trying to get married. This man was trying to propose to his girlfriend. They accused them of stealing merchandise and eventually kicked them out of there. So no, I'm 100% with you. So of course that then draws boycotts and all types of negative press [?]. Now, look, I don't personally drink Angry Orchard. This also is not an ad, but, you know--Deidre: That's some Angry Orchard right there. [laughs]Zach: [?]. People angry at the Orchard, okay? For the wrong and right reasons, mm-hmm. Okay, please continue though.Deidre: No, but that's where I'm coming from. Obviously I know--so when I say I'm hosting and organizing a diversity and inclusion conference, we are concentrating as a risk management community, talking about how we can help the risk management community get a hold on this from a strategic standpoint of either making insurance companies money or saving them through talent acquisition and getting the right talent, because we know if you lose employees you lose a certain amount of money trying to rehire people. We know what these--so think about this. When these companies have lawsuits, how are they getting paid? Typically through insurance. When it's a lawsuit and a claim. Unless it's--Zach: That's right.Deidre: Yeah, so it's really important to my industry strategically, from whether it's their internal practices or what they're paying out, especially if they're million-dollar claims or lawsuits, what's going on. So it's a strategic risk to think about how do we leverage it to grow our revenue and our brands, and also how do we minimize issues so that we're not losing money or losing top talent?Zach: I love it. I think that, you know, it's just interesting because--and I keep saying it's interesting, right? So you know--you know, Deidre, how when you talk to people you have certain things that you say as your pivot word? "It's interesting" is, like, my pivot word slash phrase, but I'm going to work on that. I'm gonna work on that after this interview, because I won't stop right now, but--Deidre: Can't stop, won't stop.Zach: Well, I will stop eventually.Deidre: [laughs] Not today, but you will tomorrow.Zach: Not today. It's about being introspective in the moment. I think that, you know, live introspection can help you actually move forward as opposed to--'cause you may not think about it again, so I'm calling it out right now in the middle of this interview awkwardly. So as I get older and I just pay attention, you know--and I'm bringing this up based off what you just talked about with the business imperative and the strategic imperative of inclusion and diversity--I realize though how much of the world I navigate is catered to white experiences, expectations, and comfort, and that doesn't really--that's not exclusive to--it's inclusive of corporate America as well, and when I think about the work that you're doing, in some way or another simply even bringing up otherness pushes up against some of those levels of comfort. So how do you navigate the fragility that comes with discussing non-whiteness in majority-white spaces?Deidre: You know... maybe that's my pivot word, "you know." [Zach laughs] I've been trained for this job and position--all my life I've been trained for this, because growing up, you know, from kindergarten to half of college I was in majority-white spaces. Like, my elementary school K through 8, my sister and I and maybe three other kids were black. Like, it was just mostly white. So I guess to me--the thing about this is with any idea or concept you're selling people on, you've gotta tell 'em what's in it for them, and I think that's a clear thing. And also don't make people feel ashamed for learning and uncovering bad habits. Like, for ex--and I don't know, think about this. If somebody, you know, for example, like you said, if you're saying a trigger word to pivot things, right? "Oh, you know, Zach, like, every time you transition you keep on saying "interesting." That's horrible." You're gonna be like, "Dang, that hurt me," right? It's just the same thing as saying, "Hey, you know, you always interrupt women." Like, "Why are you doing that?" That would not be my tactic when it, you know, comes to whether it's women issues, people of color, or whatever. So I always try to think of, you know, how to come out of a situation, whether it's for a person or a company or whatever, of how to tell them what's in it for them. So for example, "Hey, Acme Company, you're doing great when it comes to business practices, when it comes to just, like, in general." Like, "You're making money. Have you thought about the strategic risk of not having diverse talent and not really investing that?" "Oh, we have diverse talent." "Yeah, yeah, but do you understand the demographics are changing?" And companies are having either corporate social responsibility plans or diversity and inclusion initiatives that require or ask for diversity and what you're strategically doing. "Let me help you with that. Let me help you formulate a plan, 'cause I want you to succeed," or "Hey, I want you to be a good leader. Do you know about, you know, people are being evaluated now on how they are inclusive leaders? I have tools and resources if you want my help," and then they gotta ask for the help or say, "Yes, I want the help," you know? But at least make people aware of things in a way that you're helping them and less from a point of accusation or you're doing something wrong, because we all make mistakes, but until we're made aware of in a way that's safe and safe to admit--I have people tell me, "Deidre, like, you know, you put these things out there with diversity and inclusion that makes me rethink things, and you say it in a safe way so I don't feel threatened," and I'm like, "Thank you for saying that, because that is very uncomfortable, to say that you feel uncomfortable and threatened by things because you don't know what you're doing, so I'm happy to help you." Now, everyone doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be the burden of a minority to educate the majority on their pain or frustration. That is a lot of--it's just a lot of work, but I'm choosing this work, so I'm using my power and my platform to do that. So it's a choice involved, but you've gotta either step up and be open to changing and pivoting your messaging to make real impact.Zach: I love that, and you're absolutely right that it is a choice, and there are different methods to do that. I do love the fact that you said, you know, black and brown folks and just non-white cisgendered folks, non-white male cisgendered folks, we're not obligated to carry the burden of educating people, so I'ma just go ahead and give you this right here. [applause sfx] Just so people--'cause, you know, there's also this narrative of like, "Well, how can they know if you don't teach 'em?" Like, 'cause they got Google. Like, people learn how to code.Deidre: That is what I--I'm like, "You can Google or YouTube anything."Zach: [laughing] You can Google so much.Deidre: Now, Zach, the thing about--I won't deal with ignorance to the point where people, like, trolls and stuff like that, like, I don't have time for Trolls. I'm not a troll collector. I don't really like those dolls or people, so I don't play with them. I don't play with Trolls. Okay, but people who are really open to learning, yeah.Zach: Right, that's the qualifier. They gotta be open to learning, but I like the fact that from the jump you said, you know, you've been--basically you've been molded for this, you know what I'm saying? Like, you've been, you know what I'm saying, like--[to this day sfx]--right? Like, you're doing it, right? [both laugh]Deidre: And I don't know about your background. For me, I also--that's why I strategically chose to go to Spelman College. I went to Atlanta. I visited out there for homecoming. My cousin went to Clark and I was like, "This is poppin'." I transferred in the middle of my college experience. And so I--1. I wanted the experience, but I've never been a majority in an all mostly black woman environment, and it was kind of a reality shock. So I also say on the flip side, if you've always been other, you might want to try to be in the majority because it really is a way to reframe your identity, because on one side, yeah, it's a lot of issues and stress being other and always trying to, like, reinforce what you're doing, but sometimes it's also a platform to make you stick out and people look up to you and whatever versus you blend in. I mean, no one realized I was new for a while. I had to tell people, "Hey, I'm a new girl. I don't know where I'm going," because I was camouflaged. And so I say that because, you know, there's no real perfect spectrum on this and what you can do, so I would just say use your platform no matter what you're doing to help things out. And I also say this because I had a mentor, and she was like, "Deidre--" I was young, this was my first job. She said, "You are a young, attractive black woman in this space, and no one looks like you. You're gonna get people's attention no matter what. Make sure when you do it's for a reason." So minorities people, you stand out, you know, whatever it is that you--if you stand out in your space, actually leverage that as a tool to stand out for a reason and get your agenda across or, you know, use your thought leadership, because, I mean, it is a gift and a curse, so why not use it to your benefit?Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, for me, 'cause I typically do stand out, right? So I'm a black man--I'm, like, 6'1". I'm a pretty big dude, right? I'm, like, 270, 280. Like, I'm a big guy, right? And so, you know, I know that I'm gonna stick out, and then plus I have this weird, like, Southern/Connecticut accent because my mother was an English teacher, but I'm also very country at the same time, and so I have--it's a unique profile, so when I show up I'm just--look, I'm trying to--I'm trying to make a show, right? And not, like, in a Bojangles kind of way, but I mean make an impact, you know what I mean? I show up like--I show up, I'm like [what it do baby sfx]. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm out here, okay? And, like, you know, I'll bring you in with the jokes and stuff, but then if you're actually trying to challenge me, like, I actually have some--you know, I have some intellectual rigor behind what I'm saying, right? I might hit you with some multi-syllabic words, you know? Whatever. So I hear you is my point. Okay, this has been a great conversation. Any parting words or shout-outs before we let you go?Deidre: Yeah, shout-out to myself. I'm Deidre Wright. I'm here--Zach: Ayo, she said shout-out to myself. Oh, my gosh. Yo, wait a second. [air horns sfx, both laughing]Deidre: Because if there's nothing else you learn this session, it's that you gotta advocate for yourself. You've gotta be your best cheerleader. Man, shout yourself out. There's a way to do it, but do it, 'cause if we don't do it, who will? And I say this because there are so many people I meet, young people, and they're like, "I would never think you work in insurance. You don't look like that," and I give them a different alternative reality and role model. So by advocating for yourself--I tell people it's selfish not to share your expertise. It's selfish not to say who you are and what you're doing, because you could be motivating so many different people by just sharing and promoting yourself and inspiring generations. [chaching sfx] So advocate for yourself, you know? Find me at DeidreWright.com. Also I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram. So at Instagram I'm @DeidreWrite, like I'm writing, you know, my life story, and just holler at me if I can help you with either personal branding, diversity and inclusion, and uplifting our people of all kinds to advance and promote diversity and inclusion.Zach: My goodness, gracious. You know, over 100 episodes we have never had a guest say, "Shout-out to me, yo." Not "shout-out to my mom," not "shout-out to my people." "Shout-out to me." I love it. No, no, 100%, and Deidre, we'll make sure we have all of your links and stuff in the show notes, so no pressure there. Okay. Well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. You know where we're at. Look, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. It's a slight flex, but it's a true flex, okay? You Google--if you go to Google--shout-out to Google, 'cause this is not an ad--Google, Yahoo, Bing... what's another search engine, Deidre?Deidre: AskJeeves I guess is no longer here.Zach: AskJeeves? Yo. [both laugh]Deidre: Ask him. [both laugh]Zach: What you gonna say next, BlackPlanet? Xanga? AskJeeves? [both laugh]Deidre: MySpace. I mean, I still can't get into my old MySpace page. Forgot my passwords, but you can probably find me there too.Zach: My MySpace was fire back in the day. Anyway, the point is we're out here, okay? And we're really enjoying the fact that y'all are listening to this podcast, so shout-out to y'all. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, again, just Google Living Corporate, you click the link, and there's a subscribe button right there, right when you click on the website, okay? We have new content. Of course we got this dope content right here. We got new blogs. Make sure you just check us out, okay? This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Deidre Wright right now - right on time - she's just right.Deidre: You know that's right.Zach: You know it's right. Not white, right?Deidre: But Deidre's right.Zach: Deidre's right. [both laugh] Deidre: Thanks, Zach, man. I appreciate it, and let me know if I can ever be of service to you.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with Porter Braswell, co-founder and CEO of Jopwell, to learn more about the company and to hear his story behind its creation. Jopwell is the leading career advancement platform for Black, Latinx, and Native American students and professionals - check them out! Porter shares a bit about the work Jopwell is doing to encourage inclusive cultures within institutions that black and brown folks are trying to enter and a whole lot more.Connect with Porter on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter!Check out his book, Let Them See You: The Guide for Leveraging Your Diversity at Work, on Amazon!Learn more about Jopwell at their website, and connect with them on social media! LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? And welcome to Living Corporate. You know what we are. We're talking about real talk in a corporate world. Now, look, I come on here, and I typically will say "What's up, y'all?" But to be honest with y'all I'm a little nervous, 'cause, you know, every time we come at y'all we're coming to you with a really great guest, but this guest is a little bit--you know what? Let me not do that, 'cause we've had a lot of really great guests, right? Like, we've had J. Prince. We've had Chris Moreland. We've had Jennifer Brown. We've had DeRay Mckesson. You know, we've had some big names. We've had Chilla Jones, the battle rapper. We've had people, right? We've had CEOs, executives. We've had Accenture - we spotlighted them a couple months ago. So okay, let me not get too starstruck, but a personal hero of mine, somebody I've been admiring from afar, we have Porter Braswell on the show today. Yo. Listen, if you don't know about Porter Braswell, Porter Braswell is a Yale graduate and former Goldman Sachs associate who co-founded Jopwell.com, the leading career advancement platform for black, Latinx, and Native American students and professionals. Braswell frequently speaks about diversity in the workplace with Jopwell's corporate clients. He's been profiled in Fast Company, Forbes, TechCrunch, Vanity Fair, and Ad Week, and has received numerous rewards and recognitions, such as LinkedIn's Next Wave, Top Professionals 35 and Under, Ink Magazine's 30 Under 30, Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People in Business, Vanity Fair's--look, I'm getting loud, just getting excited, talking about all of this dude's accolades, but I'm really excited to have him on the show, and so with us--we have him, man. Porter, what's going on? How are you doing, man?Porter: [laughs] That's a very generous introduction. I appreciate it.Zach: Well, look, it's great to have you on the show, man. Look, not to put too much sauce on it, but, you know, you're the man, right? You graduated from Yale. You know, you hooped all four years. Now, I have a question for you, 'cause I looked all around--were you, like--you look like a two-guard. What was your position?Porter: [laughs] I was a point guard. Definitely the point guard.Zach: Okay. Now, look, were you the--now, let me ask you this, were you the POINT guard, or were you, like--like, what style? Are you a facilitator? Or are you more like the--or are you kind of like a Russell Westbrook type where you're just out there?Porter: Well, you know what? So I was a scoring guard, and if I could go back in time I would've made me way more of a facilitator, recognizing that, you know, almost 6'1", I'm not gonna go to the league as a scoring guard, and so--I feel like nowadays people draw their inspiration from, like, a Steph or whatever, but when I was growing up it was Allen Iverson and, like, you scored as a point guard. And you still score as a guard now of course, but--Zach: But it's different though.Porter: Yeah. You know, like, a step-back three-point shooter. Like, you can get away with that now. When I was playing, you had to go to the hoop and finish. Zach: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.Porter: Yeah. I would've [?] my game after other people, [laughs] but it worked outZach: [laughs] Well, look, let's talk about this, right? So, like, you know, what point did you realize that diversity, inclusion and equity was, like, important enough to transfer and transition from Goldman Sachs to create Jopwell? Like, was there a specific moment that rung out to you? Like, what did that look like?Porter: Yeah. So basically when I was--when I was working at Goldman, at the time I was there for about three years, and I was a product of the diversity recruiting efforts starting back in high school. In high school I spent two summers interning at Morgan Stanley via diversity recruiting initiatives, and then at Yale I spent three summers interning at Goldman Sachs, all via diversity initiatives, and so my whole life, up until that point in time, was about diversity and inclusion, and that's where I found my opportunities. And buying and selling currencies, while fulfilling, it wasn't the fulfillment I was looking for. I wanted to do something that I felt was more impactful, something that I felt I was uniquely qualified to do and something that was solving, like, a real pain point--solving a real challenge that people or companies were facing. And so with those ingredients, I took a step back and recognized that diversity recruiting and inclusion was a massive pain point for corporate America. It was something I was uniquely qualified to solve, and I was incredibly passionate about it, and so I decided that my life's focus was gonna be on building more diverse and inclusive organizations and doing it through a tech company - that became Jopwell, and I think that's really important because we took a traditional non-profit model but made it into a for-profit tech thing because we're solving real pain points of companies, and we wanted to basically build a competitive atmosphere, like any other tech company, where you're disrupting an industry and you want to win at it. And so we took that approach, and, you know, I'm very thankful that my life's work and my passion and my actual day-to-day job all align with each other.Zach: ["ow" sfx] Man, I'm really thankful for it too, right? Like I said--I told you, like, right before we got on, like, it's been incredible because Jopwell hasn't really been around that long, right? Like, y'all launched in 2014, right? But at the same time, like, it was so disruptive, right? Like, it was, like, so--I remember when Jopwell came around, and I just remember, like, literally--three years ago even--I was just looking around and I was like, "What is this?" And I signed up. I'm in the Well, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm engaged, right? But you're right, the platform itself doesn't come across--and I think it's interesting balance, right? Because y'all are providing, like, a profit service, but it doesn't come across like y'all are--what's the word? Like, bartering in people, right? Like, you're actually building community while connecting these folks to, like, opportunities. Like, that's really cool to me.Porter: So the foundational thing of what we do is that we build community, and we can only build community if we are very authentic and understanding of the community, which we are given I'm from the community. Zach: Right.Porter: And that is a hard thing to do, and if you can build the trust of a community, then you can represent brands behind it. And so Jopwell has been able to carve out this area where brands recognize they need to rely on us to authentically connect and engage with this audience that we are a part of, and in doing so we want to deliver the most incredible experience and opportunities for the community. So as long as we keep the community at the center of what we do, we'll be fine as a business, but we're not transactional. We don't think of the community in that way. Like, again, we are from and a part of the community, so we know the pain points, and so we've just--we took a different approach, you know? I think that's the simplest way to describe it. We took a different approach. We took a step back. I'm not from a recruiting background, and I think that helped me, because we looked at this problem in a way in which others didn't look at it before.Zach: Man. You know what? It's 100%, 'cause it's interesting because I don't think--it's easy to, like, understate that when you come up in, like, these corporatized recruiting platforms, it just--it naturally skews your perspective and creates blind spots for you. It doesn't matter what your particular--I mean, your ethnicity and gender plays a part in that, but I'm just talking about the culture of recruiting is often times so regimented that it creates a variety of blind points that you're not necessarily even thinking about--like, recruitment experience--as much. Like, you're thinking about it from a "check the box" perspective, but there's that personal touch that rarely is really considered. And so 100%. I definitely agree that you not having that formal recruiting background gives you a bit more insight. Porter, it also reminds me that, like, the people who are often best suited to solve for inclusion efforts for black and brown people are often black and brown people, right? Like, you had--you were a hooper at Yale. You then were a Goldman Sachs employee and a Rising Star, and then you still, because of your experiences and your insights and your passions, were able to shape that into having really unique insights, enough that you were able to create a whole platform from that. Do you know what I mean?Porter: Yeah. Well, I think that everyone has a unique story, and everybody has unique contexts in which they come to the table with, and it's a responsibility of diverse individuals to expose others to the different contexts. Now, for me, that allowed myself to build the business, but that doesn't have to manifest itself in a business. Like, leveraging your diversity as an asset, you could just expose people to a different way of thinking, which helps any organization, which is the power of diversity of course. So leveraging your diversity doesn't have to lead to a business, but leveraging your diversity can lead to disruption and change, and that is a responsibility that diverse individuals have, and for me I felt that responsibility to build this platform.Zach: So, you know, you talked about this, and it's a really good segue--you know, Porter, it's almost like you're media-trained. It's almost like you do this often, you know? But you talked about leveraging your diversity. That reminds me really of your latest book, "Let Them See You: The Guide for Leveraging Your Diversity at Work." It was just published. And this book carries a theme of personal responsibility, and of course that's critical, right? So, like, talking about how you leverage your diversity to create, to your point, disruption, change, within whatever context that you're in, but with that in mind, can we also talk about the work that you've done personally, and the work Jopwell is doing, to encourage inclusive cultures within these institutions that black and brown folks are trying to enter?Porter: Yeah. So writing a book is a really interesting process. [laughs] I'll start by that, saying that. So when I wrote the book, I decided that I wanted to write a book to professionals of color, because that's, again, what I'm--that's what I know. That's the group I'm a part of. And when you write a book, what's really difficult is that you have to pick one audience [to?] talk to one reader, and you have to make sure that you are speaking in a way that the reader can follow you. So when I chose to write this book, I chose my audience to be the Jopwell member. I chose to write to a professional of color, and in that conversation I am basically mentoring and saying, "As a person of color, regardless of your environment, this is how you leverage your diversity as an asset, and you have a unique opportunity to do so." What I wasn't able to do in the book was talk about what companies can do to create environments where people can actually leverage their diversity as an asset, because if you try to [?] in one it becomes very complicated. You can't--the reader can't follow along. So the book is about what we as professionals of color can do, but now there needs to be a conversation about what can companies do to create environments where this can actually happen? And so a lot of what we do from a Jopwell perspective to companies is that we discuss with them different strategies and ways to think about building diverse, inclusive, and equitable environments, and it really starts [at] the top down, meaning that, like, the senior most people, the CEO, the board level, they have to be committed and bought in. Companies have to clearly define and articulate what diversity even means in the context of their organization. Are you talking about ethnicity? Are you talking about gender? Sexual orientation? Socioeconomic background? What are you talking about? Because to build a culture that is inclusive--well, inclusive of whom? You know? And I think that's a really important concept. And then how do you measure if it's working? And so there are a lot of steps that companies have to take. Unfortunately, a lot of companies don't feel comfortable having uncomfortable conversations and they want to jump to solutions without really thinking through "What does success look like?" So at Jopwell, when we work with a company, we take them through those stages. We work with them to define what success looks like. And diversity and inclusion is not, like, a 1-year initiative. It's gonna be ingrained in your culture moving forward. So it's a long-term play, and so there's a lot of work that we do with companies that's less tech-focused--it's a lot of human capital--but because we're doing that at work, we can help the community find opportunities that they should be able to thrive in.Zach: And so let's talk about that. I want to press a little bit more on what you said about, like, you know, you stated that a lot of times--that part of the inclusive culture for folks to actually leverage their diversity well is in organizations being comfortable having uncomfortable conversations, and I've noticed that too, that, like, a lot of times if you mention the word race, or you mention the word gender, or you mention any of these words that indicate other, you're right, organizations will often kind of go to, "Well, we're just gonna do this, this, this, this, and this." It almost becomes, like, a--like they're putting out a fire, right? It's more reactionary and it's not solution-oriented, and you talked about people being comfortable with those uncomfortable dialogues. What does it look like for Jopwell to help organizations work through some of that discomfort?Porter: Yeah. So what we tell companies is that if there's something that's happening in the world or in the country that disproportionately affects a certain community and you have that community as employees within your organization, how do you express that in a way that's, like, non-polarizing or non-political? Because you should treat your colleagues and your peers as you would want to be treated. So if you're from a community and something's happening within that community that's, like, on national news and you don't address it as an organization, like, of course that employee won't bring their whole self and their authentic self to work, and if they don't bring their authentic self and their whole self to work you're not gonna get the most out of them. So how do you create [environments] where these potentially uncomfortable conversations can occur in a way that it's respectful and that employees understand that the workforce that you work in is very inclusive and these conversations are just a part of the fabric of what makes the organization's culture special? So, like, let's start small, right? And so thinking about topics and news conversations that are happening, how do you start to address those things? Now, we've seen many companies do really interesting things on the back of our recommendations when these things occur. Some companies have hosted town halls where they bring all hands, and, you know, it's a conversation of what's going on and what's the position of a company around certain topics that they cannot ignore. And the feedback has been incredible, naturally so, from the attendees, because they felt like they were seen for the first time. And then again, like, if companies aren't used to doing those things, it can be potentially uncomfortable. So that's an important concept.Zach: And kind of going into that, right? And I shared this a little bit earlier. What excites me about Jopwell is that it's not a job board - it's actually a community, and I talked about this earlier, but it's a community built by and built for underrepresented folks, and, like, that comes with a lot. So I think about Living Corporate--and Living Corporate and Jopwell are not the same, right? Like, the missions are different, but there's some similarity in that we exist as a resource for underrepresented voices, and I think that comes with a lot. I think for Living Corporate it's unique because we're really just here on, like, the employee side. Like, we're just here to amplify voices, but we're not--we don't necessarily have, like, the same connected, like, broad community that you have, and we're also of course not managing, like, tons of corporate relationships, and so I'm really curious about, like, what does it look like for you and your team Porter, to manage the emotional labor of, like, carrying and advocating for and building this platform to amplify and support black and brown folks while at the same time managing, like, the business relationships that come with that?Porter: Yeah. So it can get very complicated, but we always--because [we work?] for the community, the community knows what to expect from Jopwell and companies know what to expect from Jopwell. So we don't speak to the community any differently than we talk to companies, and we don't talk to companies any differently than we talk to the community. Like, we are very consistent in who we are. For us, we always do what we believe is the best for the community, and Jopwell takes stands on things that we feel passionately about that affect the community, regardless of what companies think. So a perfect example is during the last election, when Trump won, we knew, positive or negative, there was gonna be a very strong reaction from them. So even though we're a tech company, we knew we had to host a town hall, or create a forum, where people can share their perspectives and how they feel. So we hosted a town hall in New York City. We had, you know, several hundred people show up. No real agenda other than hearing the perspective of the community, and people shared how they felt, and just providing that forum, I think, was beneficial, and we felt that we had a responsibility to the community. So we know if we're thinking these things, others are thinking these things at work, so there needs to be an outlet where they can have these conversations about all of the stuff that's going on. And so, again, we have to be very committed and very--and always bring it back to we are a community-first class [?]. The two things that we believe are best for the community--again, as long as we're consistent and then companies know that, the community knows that, and Jopwell will always do what's best for the community.Zach: Man, I love that, man, you know? I just--and I appreciate it, and it feels--like, to your point around consistency, like, it's really cool--'cause I've seen other... I don't know. It's just interesting, right? And, like, I've talked about this to other, like, diversity and inclusion leaders. I think that we're seeing this pattern of some of these spaces becoming a bit more authentic in their language and in their presentation, and I really do believe that Jopwell is leading the cause in that, right? Because a lot of times when you have, like, these spaces that are, like, led by predominant majority folks, they can sometimes come across lukewarm or silent on certain spaces, and then it--like, it creates an inconsistent brand, because it's like, "Okay, well, if you're for diversity and inclusion, you should have a voice on this topic because it's impacting the people that you claim to advocate for." And I do recall content coming out around the election, and I do remember just being, like--feeling really affirmed by that. So question for you - you talked a little bit about forums. You recently hosted Jopwell's first ever summit, Jopwell Talks. It looked like an awesome event. Can you tell us a little bit more about the day and what you hope attendees took away from the summit?Porter: Yeah, absolutely. So we were so thrilled to host that event. Basically, Ryan and I, my co-founder and I, we've gone to diversity and inclusion conferences time after time after time over the last, you know, 4.5 years or so of building Jopwell. It was frustrating to me that I didn't leave feeling inspired [for, like, what] tomorrow brings me, and we are incredibly fortunate that throughout the Jopwell journey there have been many mentors and celebrities that have joined the movement with us, and we felt that we could provide these trailblazers [?] a stage to share stories of how they got to where they are and the things they've learned along the way that the audience can recognize that there's no linear path to success and that these individuals that we can highlight, we felt that it's not often that you get access to these folks. So we wanted to create an incredible environment, so we rented out the Brooklyn Museum. We wanted to have the most outstanding speakers, so we went after [sticks?] - Gayle King, Dr. Michael Lomax, Antonio Lucio, the CMO of Facebook, Edith Cooper, [?]. I mean, just incredible folks. [?] loved hosting it. And from these individuals, we were able to share their story and highlight them in such a way that the audience could follow along and let the conversations breathe. So we didn't have panels. There were no breakout sessions. It was amazing content from amazing individuals, and we crowd-sourced some of the questions. You were involved in this incredible environment listening to these folks, and what I've received as feedback from people, they left feeling motivated and excited to [see] tomorrow, and they saw these folks, and that was the goal of the day, and so we're very thankful that people were excited to attend and that they wanted [to be a] part of it, and, you know, we plan on doing a lot more moving forward.Zach: Man, that's incredible. And look, Porter, you know that we appreciate you. Super thankful that you were able to join on the platform. In fact, you know, it's pretty customary. We got to. You know, we typically drop air horns. We drop 'em at the beginning, but I got too excited and nervous 'cause you're on our show and so I didn't drop 'em. So I'ma go ahead and drop the air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--and I'ma go ahead and give you a Flex bomb--[Flex bomb sfx]--and I'ma give you some coins, 'cause you been dropping dimes. [coin sfx] And I just want to thank you, man. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Before we let you go though, any parting words or shout-outs?Porter: No, [but] I appreciate the work that you all [do]. You know, the more that we lift each other up, the more opportunity exists for everybody, and this is not a zero-sum game, and I get very frustrated when I'm the only person of color in a room, and--again, the conversations need to keep happening, and that's the only way we're gonna start changing things. So thank you for building this and for allowing individuals to hear stories at scale. It's what I need and needed when I was thinking about what I wanted to do next, and it's not often where you can get access to folks and really hear their authentic stories. And so it's an incredible platform that you're building and, you know, thank you for doing that.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Man, I'm about to blush over here. Yo. [laughs] Listen, y'all, it's been Zach. You've been listening to Living Corporate. We are real talk in a corporate world. You make sure you check us out on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram at @LivingCorporate. Make sure you just check us out anywhere. You know, just Google us, you know what I mean? We're not Jopwell level, but we're out here. You just Google "Living Corporate." You want to check out our website? Check out livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, living-corporate--please say the dash--Porter, do you know we have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, man? We've got all them domains. I'm trying to get it, man. Australia has livingcorporate.com, but we're gonna get there one day, man. Let's see here. I think that does it for us. This has been Zach again, and you've been listening to Porter Braswell - general beast, but specifically for this podcast, CEO and co-founder of Jopwell. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach welcomes Cognizant's Maureen Greene James to the show, and she shares what she thinks are the biggest frustrations in the diversity and inclusion space today. In addition to speaking about her unique role as an inclusion leader who's jointly focused on leadership development, she also offers up three points of advice for executives looking to create an inclusive workforce.Connect with Maureen on LinkedIn and Twitter, and check out Cognizant's website, Twitter, and Instagram!Check out our website by clicking here: Living CorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, you know what we do, right? I come on here, I say, "What's up, y'all?" And I say it in this smooth way, right? And then I say we're a platform that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, but just for those of you who don't know, we are a platform that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work. Now, if you're new to the space you may say, "Well, how do you actually do that?" Let me tell you how we do that. We do that by having pointed, accessible, and real, authentic interviews with black and brown executives, leaders, movers and shakers, influencers, public servants, educators, activists, creatives, artists, you know what I'm saying? With everybody. And we also interview non-black and brown folks too, for those who are fragile and feel not involved. We got y'all too. You're welcome as long as you are an advocate for black and brown people. And so, look, we do this, and today is no different. We actually have a great guest like we do every episode, but I'm saying this episode really for real. 'Cause sometimes I have a guest and y'all send me messages like, "Okay," but no, but really, this time a super, super dope guest. Our guest is Maureen Greene James. What's up? Sound Man, give me some air horns right here. [air horns sfx] Okay, thank you. Now, look, Maureen, she is an HR professional whose background, experiences and expertise include HR leadership, talent development, diversity & inclusion, employee engagement, communications AND change management. Maureen serves by bringing expertise and experiences in HR leadership, diversity & inclusion, talent and leadership development, employee engagement and change management to Cognizant, serving as the leader--y'all, check it out. Whoa, whoa, whoa. The leader of Diversity & Leadership Development for North America. So all of the states, right? Including the little states on the side. For those of y'all who weren't too good at geography, Alaska and Hawaii. Those spots too, right? She is in charge of all of that, right? Now, to further enhance Cognizant’s commitment to diversity, she plays a key role in the company’s efforts around executive talent & leadership development while staying focused on building a diverse, high performing pipeline of strong women leaders. Maureen has been recognized for her professional accomplishments in Black Enterprise magazine--come on, Black Enterprise--and in 2014 received the “Most Powerful and Influential Woman Award” by the National Diversity Council. I mean, come on. I mean, what can we really say here? I gotta drop at least one Flex bomb. [Flex bomb sfx] Maureen, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Maureen: I am great, Zachary. How are you?Zach: I am really, really well. So, you know, a little bit of behind-the-scenes tea, I'm really glad we're able to sit down. We've been so busy.Maureen: We have. There's been a lot of stuff going on. I've been doing some travel for work. But, you know, it's all good. I'm staying busy, staying focused on all things inclusion and diversity within my organization, as well as, you know, within other organizations that I have the opportunity to be in front of and share my knowledge and expertise [with].Zach: Okay. Well, hold on. So you say you've been traveling, you know, and again, you said your organization as well as, you know, other organizations, so... ["ow" sfx] You know, can you talk a little bit about some of the other organizations that you've been able to share your knowledge and expertise with?Maureen: Sure. So I often have the opportunity to really utilize my platform and my voice to speak with other organizations at conferences and inclusion summits. I've had the opportunity to be in front of MetLife as an organization just to talk about diversity and inclusion. I actually hosted a panel around inclusion not too long ago. I also had the opportunity to work with PwC, which is an organization that obviously I'm familiar with because that's where I was for the past I would say about 11.5 years. So I do spend a lot of time really focusing on diversity and inclusion, obviously within Cognizant, but also making sure that I am sharing the knowledge and expertise as well as learning from other organizations too around what we're doing, what we're all doing in this space to really build an inclusive work environment.Zach: Well, I mean, I just think it's incredible, and that's why we're so excited to have you on the show today. So, you know, I gave a bit of an introduction and we talked about--and just now you talked about some of the speaking you've been doing. I talked about your professional background. But for those of us who don't know you, is there anything else you think you'd like to share about yourself?Maureen: Yeah. So for anyone that doesn't know me, [know] that I'm a really passionate--I don't like to say HR leader, even though that's probably what it says in my bio, but I'm a people leader, you know? Like, I like to get in touch with the people. I like to know what's going on with the people within an organization and what makes them tick, what makes them get engaged with the organization that they work for, and what allows them to feel like they are working within an organization that has a very strong culture of belonging? So those are the things that are, you know, really important to me and the things that I'm passionate about professionally. I recently had the opportunity to speak at an inclusion summit for an organization called ATG - Advanced Technology Group - and, you know, one of the questions that they asked me was around, you know, "So what are the things that people don't know about you?" And I said, "Well, you know, there's some things you don't know about me. I like to kayak. I like to read. I like to learn. I like to hang with my family." And of course my favorite thing in the world is I like to spend time on the beach. But I try to mix all of that, the business and the pleasure together, so taht I have what I like to call work-life--like, some kind of work-life equality. Not necessarily balance, because there's no such thing as work-life balance.Zach: Listen. Now, we could have a whole 'nother podcast about that. I sometimes--[both laugh]--'cause it's not true, right? I think--ugh, anyway... no, no, I'm gonna go ahead and say it! [both laugh] So I sometimes talk about, like, work-life blend, right? And I've even had, like--this was back when I was, like, 23, 23 or 24. I wrote an article on LinkedIn about--I said work-life balance is a myth, 'cause it is, right? Like, we live in a capitalistic society, and the rate of pay has not gone up with the rate of work. So whether you want to accept it or not, right, like, you are--people are now working more than they ever have before and not getting paid commensurate with just the hours. Not even talking about, like, the thought leadership or the quality, just the hours of work that you put in. People at large are not getting paid for/in direct with that, right? So this idea of work-life balance, like, I know the workforce of the future is this whole new topic around, like, just how people are gonna be working differently, because this cannot continue at the rate that it is, and so this whole idea of work-life balance, like you said, I just--I don't think it's real either. So that's awesome though.Maureen: It doesn't exist. Yeah, doesn't exist.Zach: It doesn't exist. And, you know, people will call you pessimistic or whatever, but it's not. It's like, it doesn't--that's not necessarily good or bad, it's just like--but you want to be honest, that way you can actually start creating some boundaries and kind of, like, just start determining what your atmosphere is gonna be. Maureen: Exactly.Zach: Yes, ma'am. So look, let's just get into it, okay? Now, with Trump as president, I'd say we have a stronger focus on diversity and inclusion than ever before, but I'd argue that we've seen a sort of colonization of space where discussions around race are dismissed as elementary, right? Like, gender is amplified and diversity of thought is a north star. So what, if anything, do you think can be done to include more black and brown folks, particularly black and brown women, in these spaces?Maureen: Yeah. So that's a great question, Zachary, and one of the things I see is that when we're talking about diversity and inclusion, we have to really be thinking more broadly around "What does the diversity lens look like?" Right? So there was a point in time when the diversity lens looked like it was all about race and ethnicity, right? And so now women are a bigger and much larger part of the conversation, as it should be, but then there's also the opportunity for us to really be thinking more broadly around, like you say, black and brown folks and black and brown women. So we know that at leadership levels within organizations we don't see enough of us, but there are some things I think that can be done to ensure that we really have a bigger seat at that table. For example, I'd love to see black and brown women really put themselves in positions to be front and center, to be leaders, and that sometimes means for us stepping a little bit out of our comfort zone, right, and putting ourselves in places and in opportunities and on projects where we may not necessarily have every single requirement that let's say is in the quote-unquote job description, but we have a good percentage of it, and so then why wouldn't we go for it? And that's typically something that women on a whole don't necessarily do. And so just think about it from a black and brown perspective. We do it even less because we feel like we shouldn't be doing that, we shouldn't put ourselves front and center for some of those things. So I think that we need to make sure that we're putting ourselves front and center. I also think that we need to be seeking out mentors and sponsors, and the reason I mention both is because there's a difference, right? So a mentor is somebody who's going--you're going to go to for advice and counsel on your career and is it going the right direction and that kind of thing, and people need that. Everybody needs that, especially if you're an emerging manager within an organization, but then if you're at a higher--a little bit of a higher level but not necessarily at that C-Suite level, then you need a sponsor. You need somebody who is going to talk about you when you leave the room in a really good way. You know, not dishing all your business, but talk about you in a really good way to say, "I know that Maureen can do this because I have seen her do XYZ. I know that she can win that client over because she has the skills to do this based on the work that she's done with a similar client, and I have been privy to that." So you really need to have that sponsor who's going to pound the table for you and say, "Hey, this is the woman that you need front and center." So I don't want to spend a ton of time on it, I mean, 'cause I could go on for days, but those are some of the things that I think are really critical for black and brown women to focus on. Zach: So let's do this then, right? And it's interesting 'cause I was just--you know, you see a lot of these thinkpieces out lately, but I was just actually listening in on Dr. Janice, right, and she was talking about how leaning in doesn't always work, right, because, like, what do you do--so, like, we just had you, Maureen Greene James, inclusion and diversity extraordinaire, leader of people, speaker, snatcher of edges, you know what I'm saying? You out here. You just gave us great wisdom and insight on what should happen and what we should do, but what happens when--first of all, how do we do that? How do we have those conversations and put ourselves out there? And then what advice then would you give to the people who are in power, right, which is basically white men and women, on how they can be effective sponsors. Like, how does that happen?Maureen: That's a really good question. So advice I would give to people who are looking for sponsors, what I would say is that you look for someone who doesn't even remotely look like you or sound like you, walk or talk like you, and that's a hard thing to say, right? That's a hard thing for somebody to get their mind wrapped around. So I'll give you a quick story. So when I was working for PwC, there was a point in time where I was looking for someone to really--I wasn't looking for a mentor. I was truly looking for a sponsor, right? Somebody that I knew was going to give it to me straight, that was gonna tell me "Yeah, Maureen, you're not doing a really good job at this," or "Yeah, you're doing great at this, and here's what else you can do to improve in that particular area." And I was also looking for somebody to talk about me behind closed doors when I wasn't in the room. And so I really decided to put myself completely outside of my comfort zone, and I went and had a conversation with somebody who I previously did not necessarily get along with, and I had the conversation for two reasons: one, I wanted to understand what it was about this individual that, for whatever reason, we just rubbed edges. So I needed to understand that just for my own personal understanding, and two, I wanted to understand it from the standpoint of saying, "Okay, so now that I have an understanding of what that is, is this the person that could really be my sponsor?" And so I invited him out to lunch, and we had a great conversation. We talked about that one moment where we bumped heads. It was a few years before, but he remembered it very well and I definitely did not forget it, and at the end of that conversation I simply said to him, "Here's what I'm looking for, and I would like you to be this person to help move me along in my career, to be that person who is going to step in and really be that person pounding the table for me," and he was completely taken aback and surprised but elated at the same time that I asked. And when I tell you, Zachary, that he was probably one of the best individuals that I have had work with me in my career. He was straightforward with me when he needed to be, and he was at the table, you know, singing my praises one, but two really talking about what it was that I could do, how I deliver, how he's seen me deliver. So I really think it's important that we step outside of our comfort zones and we don't look for people who look like us or think like us or who have worked in the same organizations or even in the same industry and sector. This person didn't work in HR. Did work for the company, but didn't work in HR, didn't have an HR understanding, didn't necessarily want it, and that's why they were so critical, because they can give you a different perspective, something that you don't yourself necessarily see because you're in that space all of the time. So that's one of the things I would definitely say is critical. Step outside your comfort zone and look for somebody different.Zach: I love that. And so then on the other side, right, so when you put yourself out there, what advice would you give to your non-melanated, right, counterparts, on how they can make themselves available to be sponsors?Maureen: [laughs] I love "non-melanated." [both laugh] Zach: You like that, huh?Maureen: I love that. I love that. So one of the things I would say is--so I'm going to, you know, really try and step into their shoes for a second, even though that's not necessarily an easy thing to do. I would say it's very difficult for them to feel as though they can put themselves out there. And so the one piece of advice I would give them is just get to know someone. At the end of the day, Zachary, we're all human beings, you know what I'm saying? I mean, we do a lot of stuff alike, okay? We're really not that different, and I really think it's important that we are encouraging our non-melanated counterparts to feel like they can have a conversation with us, but to make them feel like that we have to treat them the way we want to be treated. So in other words, we can't necessarily roll up on them with any kind of, you know, negative thinking around how we think they're going to treat us or how we think they're going to approach us. Just have a conversation with them like you would anybody else. And honestly, you'd be surprised at how open and willing they are to really working with you, but sometimes they feel like they need to be given permission to know you. And I want to go back to something that you said earlier with Trump as president. I think that has created a lot of friction in terms of the way that people just approach each other on a daily basis, right? You know, non-melanated people may think that they can't approach black and brown people, right, or that they shouldn't, but before Trump did we really think that? Did we really have that going on, or were we comfortable just kind of saying, you know, "What's up? Can we talk?" Zach: I wasn't, but, you know, I do believe that it's definitely been more heightened now, right? Like, I think it all depends, right, on your background, right, on your story, kind of where you came from. I know just based on--so my family, coming from the South and, like, horrific experiences that they had, you know, they've really been comfortable, like, in certain situations, and in experiences I've had as well and just in my life. Not even just singing my parents' song. There's always been a bit of hesitation. I definitely believe though--to your point I believe is that it's definitely been--like, it's way more pointed now than it's been in a while, yeah.Maureen: Yeah, which is very unfortunate, because I think people--you know, most people are inherently good and really want to help and want to engage, you know, but I think that, you know, they don't necessarily feel like they can or they should, and so they don't, and so it's almost like they want permission from us. And I think we, black and brown people, need to give a little permission. And it's hard. In this day and time, that's a really hard thing to do. Zach: It is, right? 'Cause, like, there's so much emotional labor, and I think--I know that you know this, but I think it's a huge blind spot, and I think it actually goes into our next question, which is around, like, D&I programs and organizations when they think about diversity and inclusion. I don't think that organizations are effectively factoring in, like, just the emotional labor that goes into being other in majority-white spaces, nor do I think that people really understand--so, like, just black tax, right? Like, we're recording this on the day of Amber Guyger's sentencing, right? And, like, black and brown folks who have been looking at the trials, specifically black people, looking at the trial and, like, seeing this person who was convicted of murder, so... so okay, she did murder this person. [She was] crying, like, crying fake tears--crying what many people felt were fake tears, and, like, that could be triggering to a lot of different folks, the body cam footage being released and, like--so, like, just dealing with all of that and the PTSD-like symptoms that just seeing black death or constant coversage of black death causes. Like, those people still have to go to work, right? Those people still have to interact with people who may shrug their shoulders at that stuff. So I just think, like--to your point about it being hard, I think that it's really easy to undermine or dismiss--I don't think that you can overstate how hard it is to make yourself available. I'm not saying that you shouldn't or that you can't, but I'm just saying, like, I wish that--for me, right, so I know I'm interviewing you, but this is me just talking to you as someone who is in a position, right, as an executive, I wish that organizations would be more thoughtful to that, right? And I think there's just so much work to do. I'm curious to know though what you believe organizations could still be--are still missing when they talk about diversity and inclusion and you have these conversations on the big stages and also in the smaller rooms. Like, what are some themes that you're seeing around organizations and kind of what they still could be developing when it comes to their programming?Maureen: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think some organizations are doing a fairly good job, and then there's some organizations that are, you know--they're trying to get there. They're doing--I'll say they're doing the best they can, right? So one of the things I think is very commendable and courageous is having those bold and courageous conversations, right? I think that that is something that is innovative, it's fresh. It invites everyone to the table to have the deep discussion. At times, they can get really real and dig deeper than anyone wants to go, and they can create emotions out of people that no one expected, but that's necessary to have an understanding of what everyone on all sides of the coin across the entire spectrum of diversity is thinking and feeling. I think where organizations fail--so organizations that do that, I think they're doing great, but I think where those same organizations fail is that after they do that work, what happens next? So what are you supposed to do with those conversations? What are the expectations for the people that are sitting in as a part of those conversations? "Okay, great. We got it." "Okay, I understand how you feel," because this woman was just, you know, convicted of murder. She's gotten 10 years. And yeah, I understand that, but what am I supposed to do with this? There needs to be an afterwards. There needs to be an understanding of "Okay, so here's the way I feel, but here's the reason why I feel this way." And then there should be opportunities for people to bring that into the thinking around how we work, how we hire people in organizations, right? So are we thinking about talent of all colors, or are we thinking about talent of just one color? So in other words, you have to take the conversation from just, you know, engaging people and saying, "Yeah, here's what we did. We brought everybody together. We had a really good conversation, and now the organization is better for it." The organization is okay, but it's not better for it unless the people--unless everybody in that conversation walks away with, "Okay, what can we do next?" And that's the thing I think is missing.Zach: No, I agree with that, right? And I think--so when you talk about D&I programming as a whole, like, it's just not restorative. It's not restorative, and it's also not policy-driven. It's not data-driven, and it's not results-oriented by means of policies being updated. So, like, all of the things you just said--so okay, we had the conversation. Cool. "This is how we feel." Okay. "Now this is what we're gonna do about it, and this is how we, as an organization, are gonna change, and this is what accountability is gonna look like, in light of the conversation and the insights that we gathered." Like, that then makes the emotional labor worth something, but, like, if you're putting in emotional labor and not getting anything in return, like, not only is that, like, exhausting on the inset, but then it's defeating on the outset, right? So that's huge, and again, it really leads us into the next question. Okay, so you're the first--so we've interviewed some folks, right? I'm not a name-dropper. You can go on Living Corporate's podcast--ow--y'all check it out. Y'all can see the people that we've talked to. And we've talked to folks who have been in, like, these global or national positions around inclusion and diversity, but I think that you're the first person we've spoken too who is, like, in their title integrating inclusion with leadership. And so can we talk about--yeah, so that's pretty cool, and I believe that's, like, the next--I really believe that's the next level or the next phase when you talk about kind of reclaiming D&I. I do see, like, more black women and black and brown people being in these positions of inclusion and diversity much more than I have in the past, I don't know, seven or eight years, right? I've seen an uptick. So when I was talking about, like, kind of decolonizing D&I and [I] talked about, like, reclaiming the space, that's part of what I mean. So can we talk a little bit about how you've led the strategy for Cognizant to drive the intersection of those two spaces, and then also what you're continuing to do?Maureen: Sure. So at Cognizant I've had the opportunity to, as you've mentioned, be on both sides, right? So diversity and inclusion as well as leadership development. So within Cognizant, the global leadership development team is really focused on growing leaders at the director and above level, and within doing that it's also focused on making sure that our people at those levels are very diverse across the board. What I would say, Zachary, is that we have a long way to go, right? I don't think we're different from many other organizations out there. We do have a very long way to go in terms of "How do we continue to build this inclusive strategy specifically for our directors and above?" And so while I am focused on everybody across the organization regardless of level, obviously, my leadership development role is only focused on our directors and above, but I make sure to keep a diversity and inclusion lens on that population of people because when individuals see diversity at the higher levels of the organization, it attracts more people, it allows us to retain more diverse people, because now they're able to see levels and opportunities and projects and roles that they can aspire to, and it helps us to grow and develop that population. So it helps to grow the diversity that we do have at the manager and below level into those leadership levels. So it's--we like to say it's a cyclical win-win, right? The attract, retain, and develop pillars, but what I will say to you is that our focus, primarily for the past year and a half or since I've been there, has been around gender diversity. And so I bring a different lens to it, because I'm not thinking about just, you know, "Let's just bring any women in." I'm thinking about "What do the women look like? Where do they come from? Where have they been? What industries? What sectors?" All of those things, but I'm really also making sure that we're building into this diverse lens. So we have some black and brown people, you know, at the higher levels, so we make sure that we're incorporating individuals with disabilities at those levels, right? All of those things. So we're incorporating our LGBTQ+ community. We need to be able to have people at those levels who are going to be th epeople that other individuals in the organization aspire to or other individuals outside of the organization see and now say to themselves "Well, if So-and-so can be a leader in this organization, there's an opportunity for me here. There's an opportunity for me to start somewhere." So that's what the strategy has really been built around, you know? Making sure that 1. we're focused on gender diversity, but we're looking at it across a lens of all of the components of inclusion.Zach: You're bringing intersectionality to the table.Maureen: Absolutely. All day every day. All day every day.Zach: And I think, Maureen, like, for me--everything you said, of course, 100% spot on - I think what organizations don't realize is, for me anyways, right--when I come into organizations, and I've been in a few different places, so I've seen a lot. Like, I've seen a variety of cultures, but I always--when I come in--I consider myself about, like, an A- employee, okay? I feel like I'm great. I'm not, like, the best, but I'm very, very, very good. 'Cause I have other things going on. I've got Living Corporate. I ain't got time... like, I got other stuff, but with all that being said--[both laugh]Maureen: I hear you.Zach: You know what I'm saying. You know, I'ma keep that extra plus for me, but my point is I'm a very strong employee, so when I come into organizations, you know, I have aspirations, I have goals. I typically, without even, like, actively trying to do it, I just end up kind of zooming in on, like, the senior-most black people, and I look and see how they're treated, and I use that as a gauge to feel like "Okay, let me just think. Okay, so this person has a doctorate and an MBA, international experience, interned with the UN, can speak three languages, two more than me, and they're still being treated like this." So what does that then mean for my prospects as someone who's looking to build a five, six, seven-year roadmap here, right? So 100% right in that the treatment--how you treat... I mean, people see those things, right? So let's pause for a second though, 'cause I want to go back to something you said. You talked about the director level, director and up. Have you noticed a pattern of black and brown folks kind of, like, climbing a ladder and getting to the director level or, like, senior manager level even, and just kind of stalling out?Maureen: Yes.Zach: What's the reason behind that?Maureen: Yeah, I wouldn't say--and that's an every organization thing. It's definitely not, you know, a Cognizant thing or--Zach: Exclusive, yeah.Maureen: Yeah, yeah. No, definitely not. What I would say the issue behind that is that people in those roles tend to stall out because the higher you go within the organization, a lot of times you don't see people who look like you, so the people who have the power--Zach: And social capital.Maureen: Yes, to make the decisions to therefore promote a black or brown person into those high level roles aren't necessarily there, so they're looking through one lens, and their lens is typically people they know, people they've worked on projects with before, people they went to school with, people that they're in the same social circles with, those kinds of things, and black and brown people aren't necessarily always in those places. And so I think that that is part of the problem. I think the other problem is we, as black and brown people, sometimes tend to hurt ourselves because we don't necessarily put ourselves in those positions. I can speak from experience. I did it to myself and, you know, almost derailed my career years ago when I decided I didn't want to attend an event that I was invited too. But I responded and said I would, and then at the last minute [I] said, "You know what? No one is going to notice if I don't show up," and so I declined it at the last minute, and sure enough next day I walk into the office and the person who invited me says, "Maureen, we missed you last night." Now, this was not someone who looked me. It was somebody who I thought really wasn't even paying attention to me, but obviously he was, and I made the really poor executive decision to not go because, and you heard me say it, I thought I was not going to be missed. "No one is going to notice if I'm not there." And this man--I don't even know if he even remembers this story, and I always say one of these days I need to remind him, but this individual, when he invited me, he invited me for a reason. So that's why I say we can derail ourselves. You know, if you get an invitation like that--and this was a senior leader--take advantage of that, you know? Absolutely. Don't ever think--and that's the other thing. Don't ever think that people aren't paying attention to you. They are. They are, especially if you are doing great work. Like you said about yourself, you're an A- employee, which I'm sure you're an A++. Even if you remotely think you're an A- player, somebody is paying attention to you, you know? So I think we need to do a better job of putting ourselves in places where we can be seen, but that all goes back to the point of being on those high-visibiliity projects and how do we get there. There has to be somebody at the top that's pounding the table for us to get there. So it's kind of cyclical. It's kind of like you're almost, like, stuck in a...Zach: A loop.Maureen: Yes. Yeah. It's a challenge.Zach: No, it is. It is. Now, you know, we've talked a little bit about programming. We kind of had a meta discussion about D&I, but then, like, I'm curious, right, from a leadership perspective, if you were to give, like, five key traits of inclusive leaders, like, five key behaviors, like, what would they be?Maureen: That's a good question. I would say definitely someone who--an inclusive leader is someone who's a good listener, and I don't mean someone who's just gonna kind of listen and say, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay, next," but someone who's really going to listen to what you have to say, someone who's able to replay that back to you, right? Recap that and say, "Okay, I understand. So tell me, what would you like me to do next? How would you like me to proceed?" So not just listen, but then understand. Get to understand what needs to happen next. Second thing is be a great giver of feedback. It's really, really important to give feedback, because feedback really, truly is a gift, but it's also important to get feedback. So I always encourage leaders that I work with not to feel like they're--because they're in a quote-unquote "leadership role" that they're just supposed to be the people that give feedback. No, it has to be reciprocal, and they have to not only ask for feedback, but then they have to ask follow-up questions so that they can understand what is it that they're doing well or not doing so well so that they themselves can change and evolve their own behaviors. The third thing I would say is an inclusive leader should be somebody who's able to pay it forward. So be able to reach back, reach to the sides, reach wherever and pull somebody along, take somebody along for the journey that they're on, because it helps that individual learn and grow in their own respect, and, you know, I always tell leaders, "You didn't get here by yourself." Let's just be real about some things. You took the same journey that now this individual behind you is also trying to take. So do the right thing, and if you've got somebody that you know wants to move in the same career path or maybe they want to do something different but could use your guidance and expertise, pull them along with you. The fourth thing I would say is an inclusive leader should be somebody who is able to truly bring a team together, and, you know, bring them together--I'm not saying bring them together for lunch. I'm talking about bring them together so that they have a good understanding of who they are as a team, what are the team goals, what are they striving for, and most importantly, as a team, understand what each of them individually are able to contribute and bring to the table, because it is the individual nuances that we all bring to an organization or a team that helps us to be a successful team. That's how we create inclusive products, inclusive services for our clients, is by bringing those innovative and inclusive voices to the table. So an inclusive leader should definitely be somebody who is able to bring a team together. And then the last thing I would say is that an inclusive leader needs to be very mindful of the fact that they are the ones who have the ear of the C-Suite, and so they need to be individuals who can listen and hear what's going on on the ground--so across their teams and other teams--and be able to articulate that and bubble that up to the top so that any issues or concerns that may be rising are things that they're able to squash before it becomes a bigger issue. They've got to listen in on what's happening at the ground level and be able to help manage, to help do some kind of change management or navigate the conversation so that it doesn't become a bigger issue. But if it's getting there, they should be the ones who are able to bubble it up to the top and then say, "Okay, so what can we do to mitigate this?" I think that's really it. Zach: Wow. Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you so much. You know, you're just dropping bombs, dropping coins, as it were. Maureen: [laughs] Coins, yep. Mm-hmm.Zach: It's really helpful. I was trying not to cut you off 'cause I had, like, a couple of these... [Mario coin sfx] But I was like, "Let me just let her finish." [both laugh]Maureen: I'm sorry, I'm just going on forever.Zach: No, no, no. It's great. No, it's absolutely great. This has been a wonderful conversation, and thank you so much for hanging out with us. I know we went a little bit long. Before we let you go, any parting words, shout-outs?Maureen: Parting words and shout-outs? Parting words are, you know, just be the best human being that you can truly be, you know? Never take for granted where you are, because again, you didn't get here on your own. Really, really important to reach back and help others. And then any shout-outs I would give are simply to all of the people who are in the position, as you are, Zachary, to help get these kinds of messages out. Kudos to you, because this is not easy, you know? Doing what you do is not easy. Having these kinds of deep and courageous conversations isn't easy, so kudos to you, and then shout-outs to all of the people who are driving diversity and inclusion within their organizations, because, you know, we've got some work to do. People love to say to me, you know, "Well, you know, in your role, you're gonna have a job forever. It's job security." Here's the thing - I'm not sure I want to live in a world where the need to have a diversity and inclusion leader is job security, because that means that we are--that means two things. One, the world's continuing to evolve and, you know, the components of diversity continue to change. That's good. But two, it means that we're not doing everything that we could and should be doing to make this a more inclusive and global environment, and so I don't know if I want that job security. I want it to be where it's just very organic, you know? That we're not thinking about, "Well, you know, how do we hire black and brown people? Where do we go to get them?" No! It shouldn't be that way, and I know I've probably gone on way too long, but shout-outs to you, shout-outs to my peeps who are doing this day in and day out and are leading the charge right along with me, so.Zach: Come on, now. Let me get these air horns right here for that. [air horns sfx, both laugh]Maureen: Love that. Love it.Zach: Man, this has just been great, Maureen. Thank you so much. And listen, y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You make sure you check us out on Twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram at @LivingCorporate, and then, you know, you've got our website living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. We also have livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net. Maureen, we have all of the Living Corporates except livingcorporate.com. We have all of 'em, you know? You know, it's market dissemination. We're really out here. We're trying to make sure we get them SEO clicks.Maureen: Do your thing.Zach: Come on, now. We're trying to. Now, listen, y'all, y'all hear these conversations that we have. If y'all ever have questions y'all want to send in and, like, have us, us being the hosts or our guests, answer them, just send 'em on in. YOu know, DM us, email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, you know, and we can just get it poppin' like that. Now, look, if you can't remember all of the different places I just said or where we are and where we're at and what we're doing, just Google Living Corporate. We out here like that. It's been, like, 130 something odd episodes, so we're now at the point where if you just Google Living Corporate, we'll pop up, okay? So you check us out, and until next time, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Maureen Greene James, D&I leader for North America at Cognizant. Until next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach speaks with Lionel Lee, Zillow Group's Head of Diversity Engagement, and they discuss his unique personal career journey up to this point. Lionel details what influence and coalition-building look like in his position, and he also shares some of the things that he's been able to do at Zillow that he believes have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks in the workplace.Connect with Lionel on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTSheneisha: Hey, y'all. Sheneisha here with Living Corporate. As you know, we're about having real talk in a corporate world. With that in mind, before we get into this amazing discussion with Lionel Lee, we want to let you know this content makes mention of violence, which may be upsetting, so if you're listening with some little ones, discretion is advised. Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast, and of course you know what we do. We have interviews, conversations, right, that serve to amplify the voices of black and brown folks at work. And what do I mean by that? I mean we typically have black and brown folks, leaders, executives, creatives, entrepreneurs, you name it, on the show, having real conversations about real topics, and today is no different. We actually have with us today a very special guest. I'm very excited to speak with this person. I've been in contact with him for a little while, and I'm excited just to, like, get him on the show, 'cause, like, we've been texting, and then we talk on LinkedIn, and then, you know, we've been trying to coordinate. Even today we were coordinating back and forth. Lionel Lee. Lionel Lee is the head of diversity engagement at Zillow Group. He provides career development support to underrepresented employees and works with executives to develop equity and belonging policies to improve employee experiences. He also serves as a connecter between employees and community organizations. Prior to joining Zillow Group, he worked in talent acquisition, sourcing candidates across technology and banking industries. Okay, so really quick y'all, all of that to say he's by the people, for the people, you see what I'm saying? Okay. Helping communities has always been a constant throughout his life. Lionel has created and developed community groups that promote health and wellness. He's worked with HIV/AIDS education groups, substance abuse/addiction organizations, as well as health groups for youth. Lionel immigrated to the United States from Korea at age 5. His experiences growing up in south-central Los Angeles and later in the projects of Honolulu, Hawaii--I'm gonna ask a question about that in a little bit--helped nurture his passion for community building. With all that being said, Lionel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Lionel: I'm doing well, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Zach: Now, look, you know, of course I've got all of these questions for you and everything, but the first thing I gotta ask - you talked about the projects of Honolulu. Hawaii has projects?Lionel: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Honolulu has projects, and growing up there in the '70s and partial '80s, yeah, it was kind of rough, 'cause most people don't know about that, 'cause what they see about Honolulu and hear about Honolulu is it's just a paradise, but it's not really a paradise for all. You know, the level of poverty there, still to this day, is [amazing?], but back then it was like--where I grew up, in Kalihi--Kalihi is a town right outside of Waikiki, and it's--the projects are called Kuhio Park Terrace. We call it KPT, or Killer Park Terrace. Kill People Today. That's what it was, and I lived on the 16th floor, and I had to actually walk up the stairs to get to my apartment because there was a young lady that got her head cut off in the elevator, so the parents and kids, you know, catch the elevator. And then, you know, you have the same stuff that you have in a lot of different projects. You know, you have a lot of drug abuse, and, you know, you have people defecating in the stairwells. So that was the smell you walked into every single day. The crazy thing is that the dude that cut off the woman's head lived two doors down from me. And he kept it. Kept the head. Zach: What?!?!!!!!!????????????Lionel: He kept the head. But, um...Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait. You said he kept the head?Lionel: He kept the head. He was--he was a Cambodian dude, and he was just mentally disturbed, you know? He just had some serious stuff going on, and he kept the head, and we found out, like, you know, two weeks after it had happened, you know? That was--it was a very different kind of place. Very violent. You can still look up--actually, you can go on YouTube and look up videos from Kuhio Park Terrace, and they'll show you videos of what it's like at KPT to this day.Zach: To this day. That is--that is--wow, that is shocking. I'ma tell you, you know, Lionel, in your short 3 minutes of being on the Living Corporate podcast, you have given us the most gangsta introduction we've ever had. And I'm not making light of anything. I'm just taken--I'm very taken aback by this. Wow.Lionel: Yeah, I don't have the typical--you know, I don't have the pedigree of someone that's in my position, definitely. I'm not--you know, I just wasn't raised like that. I wasn't--you know, I didn't think I was gonna go to college. I didn't go to college. I didn't get a degree. You know, I had to work and do all of that kind of stuff. It's just I was given certain opportunities and took advantage of every single one, you know? Made the very best that I could, and I've always had a tremendous work ethic, you know? Just, you know, been out of my house since I was 17 years old. I've lived in my car for, like, three days, just so I can be out here, you know, just doing my thing. You know, just doing my thing and just trying to keep it moving.Zach: Wow. Well, kind of to start there, let's talk a little bit about that. So you've started on that path, but kind of talk to us about your journey from Hawaii to the head of diversity and engagement at Zillow. What did that look like?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer at one time. That was pretty weird. I've done everything, man. Like, I can do stuff around my house--like, right now I'm remodeling my house, and my kids will be like, "Where'd you learn how to do that?" And I'm like, "Man, it wasn't nothing about learning. I just had to survive." Zach: Wait, wait, wait. So let's take a step back. You said you were--you were a what dancer?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer for a little bit. [Zach laughs] Yeah, when I was, like, young, you know, and that kind of stuff. So I was raised extremely religious. My grandfather is a Baptist minister, and I was raised in the church, so we didn't go out and do that kind of stuff a lot, you know? And I went to, like, school dances every once in a while, and I always liked to dance, so as soon as I got out of my house and, you know, I didn't have nobody telling me what I could and could not do, you know, I got caught up in the dance club scene for a while, and I was going there a lot, and the dude that owned the club, you know, he asked me one day if, you know, I'd want to just come in and, you know, get paid for it, right? But it was like--I don't know if you remember. I don't know how old you are, but--Zach: 29.Lionel: There was this one dance that I was really good at. It was The Prep. I don't know if you remember what The Prep is.Zach: Nah, what's The Prep?Lionel: It's just a dance that, you know, like, a lot of black folks did, you know, back then. You know, I'd have to show it to you in order for you to know what it was, but people around my age group, they know what that dance is, and I was really good at it. You can be extremely creative with it, you know? So the dude just kind of, you know--and I didn't paid, like, a lot. It was--like, that was my part-time gig. My full-time gig was, you know, managing the Church's Fried Chicken, which was down the street from the club, right? So after work at Church's Fried Chicken I would shoot over there, and back then they would throw some, you know, neon sweater or some shit on me, and then I'd get on there and, you know, do my thing. [both laugh] So yeah, that's a snippet of my background, but the way that I got into where I'm at now is--the funny thing is I met a dude on a basketball court, right, like, when I was in my late twenties, and it was one of those stereotypical things, you know? I got into a fight with this dude on the basketball court, you know? Like, you know, you get into a fight on the basketball court, they find out you can fight, and then all of a sudden everybody wants to be your friend, right? So dude wanted to be my friend. He was a white dude, and I had never had too much interaction with white people honestly, and definitely not on a personal, you know, like, friendship level. That just wasn't the way I was raised. So I was kind of cautious, and at that time I worked for an organization called Street Outreach Services, and it was an HIV/AIDS prevention organization. It was led by this amazing sister from Brooklyn. Her name was Amani Wood. She recently passed, like, a couple years ago, and I consider her one of the strongest individuals I've ever met and was lucky enough to have her as a mentor for a very large portion of my life. But anyway, she and I were working together, and then I came up with this crazy idea that what we should be doing is we should be documenting, you know, crack addicts and crack dealers under the age of 18, 'cause that's a group that we were not capturing. So the city of Seattle liked the idea. My organization liked the idea. So I ended up doing that for about 2.5 years. So I was going into crack houses and stuff, like, you know, at 3:00 a.m., you know, 4:00 a.m., and dealing with a whole bunch of kids, and I dealt with the kids--I mean, I had one sister, her name was Beautiful, literally, and she was 13 years old, you know? She was 13 years old with a baby and she was a crack addict, and she was a crack dealer. So, you know, I had to deal with that, and that kind of stuff is emotionally extremely taxing, and the--I just couldn't do it as--I couldn't put as much of myself into it as I was, so I was starting to get burnt out, and dude--you know, he was a recruiter, this white dude that I had met, right? He was like, "Hey, you ever thought about, like, recruiting?" And I was like, "I don't even know what that is, man." And he brought me up to his office to show me what he did, and, like, a lot of young black men and young black women and kids that come from, you know, lesser economic areas, you know, when I saw a computer I thought, "Nah, I can't do that," you know? 'Cause, you know, "Computers are magic, right?" They're not meant for me. They're meant for, like, geniuses, right? You know, "Black kids can't do math." You know, "Black kids can't do this kind of stuff," and I bought into a lot of that. I bought into a lot of that kind of stuff. But I had a two-year-old child, so I had to do something, you know? 'Cause I wasn't making enough money, and I wanted him to have a better lifestyle than I did growing up. So I took him up on it, and, you know, I shot across the bridge over into Bellevue from Seattle, and then--I don't know if you know Seattle, but in Seattle you have east side and west side, and when you go across that bridge, man, it's completely different. Extremely affluent. Very, very white. You know, as a brother back in the, you know, '90s, you couldn't be on that side if you weren't an athlete, right, or somebody else, you know, that they recognized, because if you were a black person that they didn't recognize, the cops would give you a hard time. Like, literally. They would follow you around and stuff, right? But I went over there and I interviewed, and I interviewed with, like, nine blonde-haired, blue-eyed women, man, sitting around the table. I was like, "Man, I don't know if I want to do this," and they offered me the job, you know? And I was like, "Whoa, what do I do now?" And at that same time I was actually interviewing with the fire department, and walking out of that office--I drove, like, this beat up 1984 Volvo, you know? And when I say it was beat up, I mean it was *beat up*. There was 100 and something thousand miles on it. The paint was peeling, you know? That kind of stuff, you know? I put on the best clothes that I had at that time.Zach: That was a bucket.Lionel: It was a bucket. Man, it was a buck-et. And I'm walking out, and every car in the parking lot was like Mercedes, Audis, BMWs, you know, that kind of stuff, and I was like, "I don't know, maybe I can do this." And so I accepted and started there, and struggled, man--I struggled a lot. I mean, I struggled so bad the first three months. There's a very large organization. It's called EDP Contract Services. Now I think they're called TAC Worldwide, and it's one of the largest recruiting organizations in the world. At that time, I forget exactly how many people they had, but I know that at one time I was ranked, like, something like 2000th or something out of the company of recruiters, and by the time--I had to make a decision at one point because--you know, because I was basically told that I could be pretty successful in this if I got the street out of my voice, right? So I started [?]--you know, I went home and was, like, frustrated over it, you know? And my girl at that time, she was pretty hood too, so she was like, "[BLEEP] them. You know, we can sue them. Blah, blah, blah, blah," you know? But I went to bed with my two-year-old son, you know, and I was like, "Man, I've got to do something." So I made up my mind. You know, I made up my mind that okay, well, this is what I'm gonna do, and I walked into the office the next day--I got there at 6:00 in the morning. Nobody was there. And I didn't leave until, like, 8:00 at night, and then I did that for, like, a whole year, and I became #2 in the company, and my income went up something like 300% in a year. Zach: Goodness gracious.Lionel: Mm-hmm. And so I figured out that yeah, I can do this. And then I went to--excuse me, sorry. I went to San Francisco right after that. I got recruited by a staffing firm there. I didn't like them too much, so I started my own staffing firm. We did $2.5 million in our second year of business, and that was just, like, you know, three of us, right? And then we added some people on and that kind of stuff. Then I came back to Seattle and, again, you know, got recruited by another company and became the manager for recruiting for a startup during the dot-com era. I was killing it there, then the dot-com bubble burst, and then I went to Washington Mutual as their diverse executive recruiter, and that was probably one of the worst work experiences I've ever had, 'cause what happened--what happened was they wanted this person, but one of the head people in this department didn't want this person. They didn't feel the need for a diversity executive recruiter. So they waited for her to go on maternity leave and then, behind her back, hired me, right? So my first day of work I'm walking down the hall and this woman walks up to me and she goes, "Who are you?" And I said, "Oh, I'm Lionel Lee." And she goes, "Well, what do you do?" And I said, "Well, you know, I run diversity executive recruitment here," and she just looked at me, and I got this, like--it was chilling. Like, this look was crazy, and then the next thing I know, man, like, seven months later or eight months later, you know, maybe close to a year later, you know, the whole group was disbanded and we all had to leave and, you know, go do our own thing. And it was kind of crazy too. The way that they told you was, you know, they asked you to come in for an early morning meeting. I went in for an early morning meeting and they had HR there, and they said it's disbanded.Zach: So where does Zillow come into play?Lionel: 2007 hit, man. 2007, 2008, 2009, you know, and I went through all of my money, and I had to get back to work, you know? So I joined a really small recruiting firm that was, you know, bullshit. They didn't know what they were doing. [both laugh] But then there was this other recruiting firm that I really wanted and I went and joined them, and they were amazing, and--that's one of the crazy things too, the dude that hired me--he's, like, this really young--comparatively. I think he's, like, you know, close to 40 now--Republican white dude, right? And he hired me on to the company, and I go in there and I'm on the phone the first day, and he said "Hey, Lionel, can I [?] you for a second?" And I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" And he goes, "Man, who the hell is that on the phone?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "Do you know you sound white?" And I was like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah. When you talk to me normally, you know, we're fine, but whenever you get on the phone you sound white," and it's because of what I learned in the earlier part of my career.Zach: Code switching, man. Yeah.Lionel: I was code switching. And I told him, "Well, you know, that's how--" And he goes, "Nah, man. I don't think that's why you're successful. I would really love to see you be you. I got enough white dudes in my office. That's why I hired you." [Zach laughs] And I was like, "Oh, okay," and then I started really, like, trying to understand what just happened, and the reason I ended up here at Zillow Group--I stayed there for, like, five years, six years, right? And I ended up killing it there. I was always either #1 or #2. And the reason I ended up here is that the person who had hired me on at Washington Mutual, she became the vice president of talent acquisition here at Zillow, and she--I started my own company after a while, again, right, and she was one of my clients, and she asked me to come in, and she said, "Lionel," you know--this was, like, 2016. "Lionel, we're really trying to do this diversity thing, man, but we don't know what we're doing." You know, "Would you want to help us?" And I said, "Well, I can put something together." You know, I talked about it with them a little bit. They wanted me to do it. I couldn't dedicate time to it 'cause I had my own staffing firm at that time and my staffing firm was doing extremely well, but what happened was that it kind of grabbed a part of me that I didn't know really existed. My experience in tech as a black man was horrible. I mean, it was horrible, so I decided that, you know, by doing this I would be given an opportunity to better the experiences of other people that are underrepresented in the tech space, right? 'Cause when I was starting out, you know, there was no other. You know, there was me. There was me, and I was probably the only one that I knew with the exception of, like, one or two that worked in other agencies. But it was me, right? And it was horrible. I hated it. I mean, I couldn't--there was no way that I could tell somebody that "Yeah, this is a good day." I woke up every single day begrudging going to work, and eventually I was able to push down to the point where I didn't realize that, you know, there was a part of me that was always anxious, right? And that's when I got a chance to change, you know, within this organization, and then what I'm hoping for is that this organization will be--you know, will be, like, a beacon for others to take a look at, right? Like, "What did they do to make a difference?" Right? 'Cause we did. We changed how we are as a company. We've changed the way that we're perceived. You know, people want to come to work here, you know? That kind of thing, and, you know, the brown and black folks here are much happier now than they were. We know that because I'm very data-driven, and we took some surveys and things like that that let us know that the things we're doing are working. But that's how I ended up in this position. And I was a consultant at first, and they--you know, we talked about 20 hours a week. 20 became 40. It became 60. It became an obsession, you know? Because I--you know, I was like, "Ooh, I get a chance to--"Zach: Really move the needle in some way, yeah.Lionel: Yeah. Not just move the needle, but, you know, just--you know, we talk a lot in those kind of terms, right? Like, "move the needle," you know, that kind of stuff, and the way that I looked at it was never really like that, you know? The way that I was looking at it was, you know, "Improve the day-to-day experience of the underrepresented worker going into the tech space." That was my--that's my driver, right? The way that I describe what I do is that my job is to make sure that everybody that comes to work is happy and feels like they belong. That's my job. That is my job, and I--I don't like to say I love my job, because I don't think in that way, but I'm extremely proud of what we've done here at Zillow Group. I'm extremely proud, and I'm hoping to continue on this path and, you know, continue to make us an employer of choice.Zach: [applause sfx] I mean, what can I say? I mean, I hear you. This is incredible. Look, I have another question, but I want to get into this really quick though. You talked about some of the things that y'all are doing here and, like, they've been serving well. What are some of those things that you've been able to do at Zillow that you believe have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks? Lionel: Well, that was the thing, right? 'Cause one of the things that they had asked me to do was go out and find best practices, and the crazy thing is that there were no best practices 'cause nobody was really killing it. Nobody's numbers said that they were killing it, right? So I had to come up with my own stuff, but what that gave me was green fields. So I could do a couple things. So one of the first things that I did is I was walking through the office one day--and we had this wall of speakers, right? And the speakers--I looked at that wall, and it's a pretty big wall of all of these, you know, headshots of all of these speakers that we've had come into the office, and I was like, "Damn, every single person on there is white." Like, literally. Like, every single person on there is white except for one brother that we had, and of course he was a football player, right?Zach: Of course. Of course.Lionel: Right? And I was like, "Come on, man." You know? So I changed that immediately. That was one of my goals, to change that, and I did that. You know, we brought in people like Van Jones. We brought in people that were from the Islamic community. We brought in people from the Latinx community. Totally changed that whole landscape, right? And then we started talking about, like, just simple things like events, you know? Because that's one of the things that tech companies are known for, right? We have these crazy-ass parties where everybody has a good time, but not everybody gets down like that, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't grow up that way, you know? I don't go out and--you know, I'm not one of those people that like to [imbibe?] in that way and that's how I party. That's not how I do. I like the music. I like to dance. I like that kind of stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that we're all the same, but there are certain foundational pieces that make us a little bit the same. [?], right? And so we started throwing, like, parties, but I would tell the dudes that came in--I started going out and creating relationships with external organizations that were representative of underrepresented groups within our company. So we had professional organizations that I went and made agreements with, and then they would come in and they would throw the parties. And they asked me, they said, "Well, how black do you want this to be?" [both laugh] And I was like, "I want it to be as black as you want to make it."Zach: Right. It needs to be black black, with a Q.Lionel: It needs to be, 'cause you have people here from, you know, predominantly black areas, right? You've got a kid that grew up in a predominantly black area. He goes to an HBCU, you know, does really well there, and then all of a sudden he's thrown into this, right, where he's one of--I think we're at, like, 9% or something like that, right? We're still improving in that area, right? And then he's just got to, like, hang out and do what these guys do? You know, why don't we give him some of what he had back home? You know, why don't we create a sense of community for him, you know what I mean? And we did that, and then we started taking a look at some of the things--and it's all from my own experience, right? One of the things that really bothered me is, like, when all of the brothers was getting shot, you know, I felt completely alone in the office, and I had nobody to talk to about it, right? And what we did is we started--we created a forum here where people can--when things like that happen, for example when the El Paso shooting happened recently, you know, we had a forum here inside the office where people from the Latinx community could get together, along with people that were not from that community but allies that were in positions of power and strength here at the company, we all got together and we had a conversation, and we, you know, basically video-taped everybody in from all the other offices, and we had this, you know, straight up conversation about what this feels like, and that made a difference in people's experience, right? And then we talked about "How do we do our recruiting?" We started taking a look at--I started taking a look at how we do the recruiting in the first place, right? Many of our people that come on board come on from internships, so how do we effect that? Well, we start creating more relationships with organizations that are representative of us. So we started a relationship with NSBE, the National Society of Black Engineers. We started a relationship with SHPE, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, right? And then we put into practice talking to the CTO, the chief technology officer, who is just--you know, he's cool, he's just really cool, and I gave him an a-ha moment when I took him to AfroTech, like, two years ago.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout-out AfroTech. Shout-out Blavity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Lionel: Yeah, by Blavity, right? And I took him--he was one of the only white dudes there, and I was like, "Look, you know, I'm gonna introduce you to some people. You're gonna have some good conversations, and then we're gonna talk about it afterwards," and he was like, "Cool," but he walks in and there's THOUSANDS of black people, man. Where people were telling him, "Oh," we can't be found, which is bullshit. Zach: It is, man. No, it is. It is so annoying, Lionel. Well, it's annoying and it's insulting and it's racist, right? So you said, "Well, we can't find this talent"--like, we're all over, and, like, look, AfroTech is an obvious one, but man, there are also, like, a lot of, like, local, like, groups, right? Like, there's all--if you go to any major city, there's some grassroots coding group that is black and brown, right? And honestly, even if you just take the time and look in the PWIs that you're recruiting, if you just look one more time, they're there too. Like, we're here. Lionel: Right, right. So what we did--he saw that, and we came back and he was like, "What do we do?" And I said, "Well, let's figure out some strategies," and what we started doing is we started making--'cause Boeing has doing been this forever, but Boeing's been going to NSBE and making offers on the spot, right? And so it was like, "Okay, well, let's do that," and we started doing that, and we started increasing our numbers because of that, right? And then those kids that were coming in as interns, we started converting them to full-time, and then on top of it their experience as workers here is real cool because, like, I'll walk by, you know, and I'll talk to 'em and be like, "Hey, what's happening, brother?" You know? "How you doing?" And they'll look at me like--Zach: Even that alone, which is small, right? It's huge to them.Lionel: It's small. It's really, really small, but it's so important, right? People gotta feel like they feel belong. People gotta feel like they're appreciated, right? That's what has to happen, and that's what we started doing. That's one of the things. I could go on and on, man. We've done--when I say I'm proud of the work that we've done here, I'm extremely proud of the work that we've done here.Zach: Rightfully so.Lionel: Yeah. The executives have been fully on board. You know, we also do this other thing where we understand the C-level, the C-Suite, has to be on board. So we do a thing called the MB Learning Series, which is twice a month. You know, we get together, myself, the senior VP of community and culture, and some other key individuals that are well-versed in this space. We'll get together with a bunch of people from the C-Suite, and we'll sit down and we'll talk for about an hour, an hour and a half, about whatever it is, right? It could be a current event that has impacted an underrepresented group, or it could be about something that they've encountered themselves, right, that they want to know more about, right? So we work with them, and they get to learn, they get to learn what's happening, and it changes their perspective and it changes the way that they go out and approach things and make decisions, right? We have our CEO--our CEO is, like, one of the only CEOs where, you know, in his signature file, you know, he has his pronouns, right? Because that's important, you know, to understand that not everybody identifies in that way. Understanding that people identify differently is extremely important, 'cause it puts you in a different place in your learning, in your journey, and that's how we got here. I mean, there's--you know, I could go on and on, but that would take up your whole segment.Zach: No, no, no. This is great, and look, Lionel, we'll just have you back. It's not a problem, man. We'll just have you--[both laugh] You'll just come on back. But it's interesting, really quickly, about the pronoun point, right? So, you know, some research that Living Corporate has been doing, you know what I'm saying, on our whitepaper--if you check us out on the website, you know, you'll see us on there, and we talk about the fact that, you know, 14% of millennials identify as trans or non-binary, right? So it's a real statistic.Lionel: Oh, it's a real statistic. It's real. And, you know, there's so many different groups of other people that do not feel like they belong. You know, they just--you know, especially with the current climate in our country today. That kind of stuff, the divisiveness of our country today, and, you know, we just--we want to make sure, in our company--and we've been voted, like, one of the best places to work forever, right? ["ow" sfx] Forever. But what was not being considered was that not everybody felt that way. It was not the best place to work for everyone. We found that out through our data, you know? We pulled some data that showed us that. So our goal is to make this the best place to work for everyone, and we don't--I mean, we look at everyone and make sure that they're taken care of. And we started our ERGs here two years ago. We dedicated a lot of resources to it. It has its own program manager that manages everything. That's his full-time gig. That's what he does to make sure that, you know, they're good. You know, we have all of the infrastructure in place for that. They're fully capitalized. Yeah. We do--you know, we do a lot of stuff here that a lot of companies don't do, and I think a lot of it just has to do with the fact that we've been following best practices. 'Cause, like I said, we didn't find any, so we had to create our own.Zach: No, that's incredible, and you're absolutely--this is the thing. It's so interesting because as commercialized and, I'm gonna say it, colonized as diversity and inclusion has become, right, like, as a space, when it comes to actually delivering and doing the work, we're still very much so in our infancy, right? Like, there's not a blueprint for anything.Lionel: No. No, there isn't, and that's--yeah, I would agree with you that there is a lot of stuff in our space that, you know, I kind of, like, look at three or four times too, you know? Like, "Really? That's what we're gonna do now?" [Zach laughs] But that's the thing, you know? Let's be creative, you know? Let's figure it out, and for me it was very personal, you know? That's why, you know, a lot of the stuff that we did here was me imagining me, you know, sitting there at work. You know, what would I want? You know, when I first started in this stuff, what would I want? I'd want to be able to come into work and feel like I can be the best me possible, right? But I don't have to, like, play by nobody else's rules about how I talk, how I walk, and all of those kinds of things. I don't believe that people should or can bring their whole selves to work. I don't believe in that. I think that, you know, there's some shit you need to leave at home, right? [both laugh] I don't believe--you know, like, my grandmother used to tell me, you know, "Tell some. Keep a lot." You know what I mean? You don't need people knowing everything, right?Zach: Yeah, keep going.Lionel: You should be able to be comfortable when you go to work. You shouldn't have to code switch as much. You shouldn't, you know, have to wonder about your place there as much, you know what I mean?Zach: I do. You're 100% right, yeah. Lionel: Yeah, that's what we did. Zach: You said, "Share a little bit. Keep a lot." But you're right though, and some of that, Lionel, is cultural, right? So, like, I would say black and brown folks--and I'll just speak for my experience. Like, I was raised, you know, you keep your business to yourself, right? Like, there's certain things, where as then, you know, there's stereotypes that white folks love to just tell everything they got going on. They'll talk about the medication they're taking, if they're depressed, you know? They'll share everything. But you're right, like, I'm not tripping on--I don't necessarily--my quote-unquote "whole self," like, I don't have to do that, but I should feel comfortable--right, I should not feel uncomfortable and dread going to work or feel like, man, just so otherized to the point where I can't even function.Lionel: Exactly, and being othered is real, and it's difficult for people to see that, you know? Like, "Oh, we're paying you," you know? "I don't know why you don't feel appreciated," you know? It's that kind of stuff, and it's like, "Man." You know, if I'm coming into work and I can't wait to get home--not because, you know, I just don't want to be at work for whatever reason, but just because I don't feel comfortable and when I get home is when I feel comfortable? Or I'm dreading going to a company event because I don't feel comfortable? You know, that's a problem. That's a problem. That's why there's more brothers and sisters that are consultants than full-time employees in the tech space.Zach: Man... listen. Oh, my goodness. So look, Lionel, you gonna have to come back, because I've got, like, four more topics we can talk about, [laughs] but you're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, it's these temporary, transient roles, right, that give you space, but then also, like--they give you space to kind of move around and not get too uncomfortable in these environments. Man, not to mention the pattern where I'm seeing a lot of black and brown folks are in these, like, non-client-facing positions. Like, they'll typically in, like, the security tech roles, but let me not even--let me not step on too many toes today. Let's keep going though. I want to respect your time. Let's get into how you and I connected. So of course, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm active active on there, but I seen you on there, and you sent me a link about a project you're working on, which really got my attention, and I'd love to--I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that as well as--and just kind of your passion and interest as to why you're doing the work that you're doing on it.Lionel: Yeah. I think you're referring to the microaggressions survey that we sent out.Zach: That's right. Lionel: So Rebekah Bastian is the VP of Community and Culture here. She's my boss, right? I have a direct line to her and then a [?] line to the chief people officer. She and I sit right next to each other. It's an open kind of space. And she's a contributing writer for Forbes. So she was writing this thing on microaggressions, and I was like, "Let me read that," and I read it, and it talked about microaggressions towards women, right, and more microaggressions towards women, and I was like, "Man, that's crazy," you know? Because we suffer from microaggressions. And she was like, "You do, I know that." And I was like, "Yeah, I know you know that, but, you know, there's no data around it. Why don't we do our own survey?" You know, 'cause we couldn't find no data, right? We did the research and whatever, and she was like, "Yeah, I would love to write something on that, but, you know, I can't find any data," and I said, "Well, let's create our own data, you know?" So she put a survey together, and I sent it out to my network, which is pretty broad, and then many of my--that's one thing I want to thank everybody for, including yourself, you know? Many of them sent them out to their networks too. Like, "Hey, you know, this is happening. Let's talk about this." Right? And yeah, I came back and--I think we're gonna try and do this, like, yearly, and try to go even deeper, 'cause I think that it was a great introduction, but I think that we could have covered a couple areas that, you know, people really don't want to cover. But it's important, right? 'Cause I know that I suffer for them still today on a daily basis. I have to check somebody in a meeting or, you know, I also have to be mindful about certain things, right, you know, that they don't have to, you know? When I say them, I mean, like, white folks that are in my same position or at the same level that I'm at, right? And yeah, we still go through it, and it's difficult. You know, it's difficult, and we had to put that information together ourselves 'cause we couldn't find any.Zach: Well, to that point though, why do you think that I&D programs--so I have a bevy of my own theories, right, but why do you think, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we don't zoom in on black male or brown male experiences specifically?Lionel: I don't think people really want that wake-up call yet, you know what I mean? I think that people want to imagine that "Hey," you know, they got to this particular spot in their career, you know, they're making this particular amount of money, you know, they should be happy, right? But they don't know that for a lot of us--I mean a lot of us, man, a lot of us--you know, we have to deal with [BLEEP] on a daily basis that they never have to deal with, they never have to deal with. But nobody really wants to put light on that, you know? 'Cause then that would mean that we have to do some more work, and I think people don't want to do that, you know? I think that, you know, people try and find the easiest and fastest way to get to a certain point, right? But when we're talking about something that's this complicated and this nuanced, it's gonna take some work. It's gonna take some serious work, and--what is it--the implicit bias trainings and all of those kinds of things, you know, that's, like, the tip of the iceberg. Nobody wants to.Zach: No, they don't. And it's aggravating too, because even--so I've talked to--so in my current job, and then at previous jobs too, but, like, I have mentors here, and I've [?]--you know, what I find frustrating about us always running into implicit bias is that it makes the presumption that all bias is accidental or unconscious, right? And it's like, "No." Some of y'all actively don't want black and brown people here. Like, come on. It is 20--it is the age of our Beyonce, 2019. We know the deal. [both laugh] We know where people align politically. Like, more than ever we have direct insight into political idealogies, beliefs, and points of view on race, gender, sex, religion, sexuality. Like, we know all these things, so, like, let's not act like everything is "Oh, I stumbled across this racist thing." Like, come on. That's not the reality. So let me ask you this as we kind of wrap up. What are some of the challenges that you've come across as a black executive leader within an I&D space? 'Cause you're the second person. You're only the second person in one of these positions that I've met that is a black man. So you're in this position, right? Typically I see folks in this position are white women and maybe even white women who identiy as LGBTQ, right? As a black man, what does influence and coalition-building look like in your position?Lionel: Influence and coalition-building in my position? Well, one is--you know, one, you've got to have allies. I don't believe that we're in a position right now, that we have the power right now, to be able to make the change that we need to make without powerful allies, right? But at the same time, those powerful allies are working with biases themselves, so you need to make sure that you're training them up, mentoring up with them, to make sure that when they are supporting you that they're supporting you effectively and they know where it's coming from. I agree with you in many ways that, yeah, I don't necessarily think--well, let me change that. I don't believe that bias is a strong enough word for one thing. Two, I don't believe that it is all implicit. I do think that some people are just that way, and they just believe, you know, all of the propaganda and rhetoric that has been going on in the United States forever about us, right? And coalition-building really means getting rid of some of that, you know? Doing the, you know, behavioral change and thought change is important, you know? That kind of thing has to happen before people can really try to support you, because they have to understand that they are being affected, and their actions are being affected, by things that they've been taught for most of their lives in the United States, you know? The United States, man, we're--this is a country built on racism. This is a country that's, you know, built on the backs of us, you know? Whether you're Asian, Latino, Native-American, you know, that's what this country is built on. [to this day sfx]Zach: Straight up.Lionel: To this day.Zach: To this day!Lionel: To this day, right? To this day, and we have to get to a place where we recognize that. We have to get to a place where we're not okay with it. It is something that we're ashamed of, but it's something that we're gonna admit, right? That this is what's going on with us, and we need to move forward from here. That's coalition-building, you know? Getting people to really understand the mistakes that were made. Fess up to them. Own up to them. Make some changes, right? [?]Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Man, I love it. And, you know, this is the thing--you're the first person who I've had a conversation with who talks about the fact that coalition-building is not only bringing things in but also pushing things away, right? It's both. I love that. I love that. Well, look, let's do this. If you had three points of advice for any leader seeking to specifically recruit and engage black men, what would they be?Lionel: Make sure that what you want to invite them to is welcoming of black men. Do that, right? I mean, don't ask me to come to your house if your house is falling apart. Don't do that. Like, make sure your outline's right first, right? Make sure that you work with recruiting to help them to understand that, yes, they are out there, you're just gonna have to work a little bit harder. Make sure that you work with your executive staff to make sure that they're on board with whatever programs that you put in place so that you can make sure that you keep people once they get there. Zach: I love it. Just like that. And listen, y'all, you heard Lionel's advice, so we looking at you now. So you're gonna come around trying to invite black and brown men to your organizations, and we're looking back at you like [haha sfx]. Look, don't play yourself. Pay attention. This has been great, Lionel. Before we get out of here, any parting words or shout-outs?Lionel: No, man. Thank you for having me. You know, we've got a lot of work to do. You know, we're nowhere near where we could be, and a lot of this is about the economic divide, the wealth gap, and it's just gonna get wider and wider and wider. We've got to get on, you know, our bikes, man. We've got to get to work, you know, 'cause--we've got to get to work. We've got to get to work.Zach: Well, they're projecting that the median wealth of black families from a household perspective will be zero dollars, like, by 2050 or so, so you're absolutely right. We gotta--man, Lionel, this has been--like, no shade to everybody else, y'all, this has been top two dopest conversations we've had on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for being a guest. We very much so want to have you back. We'll talk about that offline. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Lionel Lee at the Zillow Group. Make sure you check out all of his information. Links in the show notes. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach speaks with the founders of Dipper, Jacinta Mathis and Netta Jenkins, about the value of your personal voice. They also share their journeys that led them to create Dipper and talk about their plans for the platform in 2020.Connect with Jacinta and Netta on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know how we do, right? We come on, I say something like "What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate," and then I maybe remind y'all that we're a platform that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, right? You should get the drift now. We're at, like, episode a hundred and something. Now, as you also should know by now, I'm bringing to y'all some more fire for ya head top, some dope guests. Now, this is really only the second time in the history of Living Corporate that we've interviewed two people at the same time, so, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to us for that, and I'm just really excited 'cause we're getting--I don't want to say two for the price of one 'cause that's kind of cheesy, right? But I'm saying we have two incredible guests, Netta Jenkins and Jacinta Mathis. Jacinta: Hey.Netta: Woo-hoo!Zach: What's up, y'all? Now, look, we're just gonna get straight into it. I'm not even gonna go through the whole intros 'cause y'alls bios, if I was to try to do it, you know what I'm saying, I'ma take up all the time. [Jacinta and Netta laugh] So for those of us who don't know y'all, please share a little bit about yourselves.Netta: Yeah. Jacinta, would you like me to start off? Or--Jacinta: Go for it, girl. Go for it.Netta: Okay. Well, I guess I'll start off with something fun. So I'm an Afrobeats living room dancer. Love Afrobeats.Zach: Oh, turn up. Come on, Afrobeats.Netta: [laughs] But aside from that, I'm the author of Self-Advocacy & Confidence for a Fearless Career, a Liberian-American woman. I'm a wife, a mom to a four-month-old baby boy and a six-year-old, and I'm also co-founder of Dipper. You know, by night, and vice president of global inclusion for Mosaic Group and Ask Applications by day in a full-time capacity. And I'd say, you know, in my full-time role I focus heavily on breaking systemic gaps and publicly challenging the notion of simply adding diversity doesn't equate to an inclusive and equitable work environment. And I'm just really excited about our Dipper platform that, you know, helps guide professionals to a better workplace, whether good, bad, or indifferent, and we're really, you know, giving people of color a voice, and we're holding companies accountable and helping them to be improved at the same time.Zach: Well, come on now, Mrs. Jenkins. I appreciate you.Netta: Hey, hey, hey. [laughs]Zach: Come on, now. Wait a minute, now. Let me give us this Flex bomb. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? That was incredible.Jacinta: That was well-deserved. Well-deserved.Zach: Well-earned, absolutely. Okay, now go on, Jacinta. You got it.Jacinta: Yeah, so I am Jacinta Mathis. I am a Floridian who's stuck in New York. I've been here for about 11 years, and I don't think I'm leaving any time soon. I'm a data-driven performance marketer. I also focus on product growth and really feel like that's my specialty. And, you know, I'm working on building amazing products and then telling people about them. That's a lot of what I do. I'm also an evolving executive at an amazing tech company and co-founder of Dipper with Netta that we feel is revolutionary in providing this digital safe space for people of color that we have, you know, formed ourselves, with our own network. We're just making it something that can exist at scale and reach millions of people. And also I am, you know, a life partner and a mother to my amazing little family.Zach: Wait a minute, now. [Cardi B "ow" sfx] You know what I'm saying? [all laugh] So let's do this, let's do this. You talked a bit about who you are, but what's been y'all's journey, right, in becoming the entrepreneurs, public speakers, educators, corporate leaders, you know, and advocates that y'all are today? Like, how did y'all get to this place where y'all came together to really create Dipper? 'Cause I want to talk about Dipper as we talk about really, like, the value of your personal voice, but, like, how did we get here?Jacinta: Yeah. I think this is how Netta and I connected, because we were both raised--like, somebody nurtured us, watered us, so that we could become the sisters we are today, and really I think our legacy and what has happened before we even existed really helped mold the journey that we live today. And so, you know, I moved to New York to be a writer, and I ended up working at interning--when you could intern for free and it was legal--at PR agencies. I also worked in a restaurant, and I also had a gig at Target, and through working in a restaurant I met someone who was a media seller and kind of told me how ad agencies in the city work and really helped mentor me into a role at an ad agency, and that was kind of how my media buying, kind of advertising and marketing career really kicked off. And then when everything became digital I kind of literally fell into a tech company that ended up not being successful, but then I ended up at a really successful one where I met Netta and really helped build my career. And I think from there I realized, you know, tech would be a big part of everything that I did, and really this kind of experience and providing a safe place was something that I looked for everywhere I worked, and so when--just talking to Netta, it was like, "We have to make this a thing." Like, "It's something we have to do together."Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, when I start thinking of the journey, it dates back to when I was much younger, and so, you know, my African parents, they really stressed the importance of education and confidence at a very young age. So while kids were on their summer vacation or playing outside, I was the one reading books and creating goals. And I read a lot. I asked a lot of questions. Sometimes teachers were a little overwhelmed. Like, "Damn, she's asking too many questions." And then also being able to hear my parents tell me, "Listen, you have the ability to create change," really gave me the confidence to do anything that I had set my mind to. And so it started off by me becoming president of the freshmen class, where I was one of only three black people in the school at that time, to heading off to college, graduating in three years instead of four. Just, like, really being ambitious in all of my goals and then starting a casting company in college, and really that was to create a safe space for women to model and act in the entertainment industry. Because obviously it's very--it's, like, predominantly male-driven when it comes to, you know, the clients. And then business led me to Boston, where I completed my MBA, and off I was after that to New York, because predominantly a large amount of my clients were located in New York. But unfortunately there came a point where, you know, my business that I had grown in college and had expanded was no longer sustainable, and so I started looking at technology recruiting contract opportunities because I just couldn't see myself in a full-time opportunity immediately after owning my own business. I'm like, "How am I gonna be able to report to somebody?" So that whole concept in my head, I just couldn't wrap my head around that, but I've always been passionate about technology like Jacinta, and data, and specifically providing opportunities for people. Love seeing people win, and that led me into my contract recruiter role with the current company that I'm with today. That turned into a full-time opportunity, and I was able to jump from level to level in a matter of four years, and now at a VP level--[cha-ching sfx]--uh-oh. Cha-ching. [both laugh] But, you know, I think what it is is there's a lot of people that ask me, like, "Netta, how were you able to get to the level that you're at so quickly?" And it's really about building meaningful relationships. I think executives were able to trust me. Executives saw that the employees trusted me. They liked the boldness, sort of the non-sugarcoating attitude in "We're not gonna have quotas here." You know, "We really have to dig deep and deal with some of these systemic gaps." And then just simply the ability to empower employees to create change, and I always say that the key to success has been persistence, working smart, and really never quitting, and I'm really, really excited that I'm working alongside with Jacinta. We worked together at the same organization for many years, and she's phenomenal. So to be able to have, you know, a teammate that you can learn from every single day is truly inspiring, and so I'm happy that we're in this place where we're at now.Zach: Well, come on, then. You know, I just--this is dope, and you've already kind of touched on it a little bit, but you said earlier about, like, using technology to help people. I'm really curious about, you know, your passion around that, because there's been multiple studies shown that even though the world is becoming more and more technically advanced and we're seeing--like, we're seeing opportunities open up within these tech spaces, [but] we're not necessarily seeing opportunities for black and brown people growing at an equal rate, right? Like, we're still seeing a bit of like, "Hm." I don't want to say segregation. We're not seeing, like, any type of uptick when it comes to opportunities and employment and progression and succession, and so I think that's really awesome that we have people in these spaces who are advocating for those voices and those people. So check this out. Today we're talking about--I said all of that as a digression in this mug. Okay, so now, today we're talking about the value of your personal voice. So, like, when did each of you realize that your voices mattered, especially within the workplace? Like, was there ever a moment where you were like, "Man, wait a minute. I can actually speak up and it mean something."Jacinta: Netta, do you want to go first? Or do you want me to? [both laugh]Netta: No, you go for it.Jacinta: I think--I feel like it's fortunate and unfortunate it took other people recognizing it before I really recognized it. I think Netta kind of touched on this a little bit too. Like, people will talk about you when you're not in the room, right? And hopefully those people are sponsors and will advocate for you, and I think it really became a point where it was like, "Oh, Jacinta should be here." Like, literally getting grabbed and brought into a meeting, you know? Or someone saying, "Oh, we think we should run with this product change. What does Jacinta think?" Or, you know, really wanting to understand your input and value, and then when you present something seeing people jump into action or, you know, really seeing change happen. I think that's when I realized--I was like, "Oh, wait. People hear me. Like, they're really listening to me, and they're really taking what comes out of my mouth as word and that it's something that we should do," and I think sometimes, especially as a black woman in a corporate space, you may tell yourself to, like, mute your voice a little bit, but I was finding that what is kind of the stereotype was what people wanted me to embrace in my own way, especially--'cause sometimes you're in a room and nobody's saying "This is wrong." So they're like, "Oh, we know Jacinta will call it a spade," you know? [both laugh] So it's really having people around me that helped empower me to realize, like, my voice mattered and that people were hearing me, and then I just got more--you get more comfortable in that, and then having your network--like, I had Netta, and sometimes we would talk to each other, and I would bounce an idea off of her or show her a presentation before it went before the executive team or the board, just because I was like, "Well, what do you think about this?" And that helped me strengthen my voice too in the workplace.Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think Jacinta's spot on with that. It's really about, you know, being able to lean on those people within the organization that you trust that empower you to have that voice, you know, to be bold, to speak up for yourself, to advocate for yourself and advocate for others. And so, you know, Jacinta was definitely that sounding block for me, and she still is even as business partners. We're always bouncing ideas off of each other, work-related situations like, "Hey, how should we get through this? How should we handle this?" And it's easier that way, right? It's harder when you're alone, and that's how come I think Jacinta and I both use the line "It really takes a village to create change and to get things moving." And Jacinta is my village, [laughs] so I'm thankful for that. I also feel early on as well I started noticing that I had a little voice and my voice mattered somewhat. Like I mentioned before, I was one of three in high school, and in middle school I was, like, one of two black people, and I remember just, you know, a whole bunch of racial slurs said. We were the only black family in that neighborhood at the time. It was a pretty, like, affluent neighborhood, and I remember going home to my mom and crying about some of the things that were said to me, and the one pivotal thing that my mom said to me is, "I didn't bring you on this earth to cry. I brought you here to create change." And I kid you not, that has been the most powerful line for me throughout my life, 'cause I always think about that. I'm like, "Wait, hold on. My mom brought me on this earth to create change." You know? And so when I got into high school, that's the reason why I ran for president of the freshmen class, because I wanted to create change. I knew of, you know, the inequities and the challenges that were going on. I was tired of them just putting up a picture of Martin Luther King and thinking like, "All right, we're done with Black History Month!" And then that's it, you know? I was really ready to challenge that, and I did, and I think that really prepared me for the work that I do now.Zach: So then let's talk a little bit about the work, right, that y'all are doing now, and about Dipper, right? And, like, by the way, the website is super fire. I very much so enjoyed the layout. I liked it a lot. But, like, how did this passion that y'all have and this realization, this self-realization of your voice and it mattering, play into the creation of Dipper?Jacinta: Yeah. It's so weird. I feel like every answer we're gonna be talking about our parents, right? [both laugh]Zach: That's fine.Jacinta: Yeah. So my dad was a chief diversity and inclusion officer for--I would say in the early '90s, before, like, diversity and inclusion was a thing--Zach: Your dad?Jacinta: Yeah, my father.Zach: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. So you said your father was a chief inclusion and diversity officer in the '90s? [record scratch sfx, all laugh]Jacinta: You're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." Yeah. And so, like, before it was really a thing. He was a Fortune 500 company and pushing them to make strides to create these more inclusive workplaces, not only for their employees but also for their vendors, and just seeing a lot of those, like, conversations happen at our dinner table--my mother was an attorney at a law firm, and I think she was one of the only black attorneys, and she was also a female. And so just kind of--these are the conversations that you would come home to for dinner, and just hearing about the things that they were dealing with and how, you know, how they would get through it and how they would grow and maybe even how they decided to exit, you know? And then working with Netta and really seeing how we built this village and this corporate space to talk to each other about raises, promotions, breastfeeding advice, whatever, you know? We were leaning--although it's important to lean in, sometimes you also have to lean on somebody, [and i oop sfx] and so we had to lean on each other, you know? So we met--I think it was lunch. I don't want to be cliche and say it was brunch. And we were just, you know, articulating how this needed to become something that other people could participate in, and with our backgrounds in tech it just seemed like the right path. It seemed like the thing that we should do. And I think in my heart I wanted Netta to be like, "That was a horrible idea," [laughs] but she was like, "Girl, yes. We have to do this," and, you know, immediately we connected with a company that we knew--he actually went to college with me and is an alpha, and [I'm an AK?], and so I reached out to him immediately and was like, "We need a dope website," and they were able to work with us to create that. And I really feel like it's been, like, this catalyst that has helped us launch and helped us reach so many people. Zach: Well, shout-out to the Divine Nine, you know what I'm saying? [they laugh] I respect how you slipped that in there. You know, I'm a [?], but I always respect my--Jacinta: [laughing] It was not intentional.Zach: No, no, no, but it just comes out, you know?Jacinta: This is true. It just leaps out, yes. [laughs]Zach: Can you--I know we're gonna get to Netta's side, but I just want to pause really fast. I'm gonna respectfully ask that you tell your sister, Kamala Harris, to promote this episode when it comes out. We won't use any type of logos, so don't sue us please. But if you could just--[all laughing]Jacinta: I will [?] her right now. I will slide in her DMs. [laughs]Zach: Please. If you could. We'll even--I was about to joke and say we'll even put, like, some [?]--but I don't want any type of [Law and Order sfx], you know? No issues.Jacinta: Yes, I respect that.Zach: Okay. Well, cool, I appreciate the answer. Netta, please go ahead.Netta: Yeah, no, I--oh, my gosh. I don't have much to add other than Jacinta was definitely spot on. That's exactly how it happened, and we're really excited about this--you know, overall excited about this platform because it gives people a chance to really share their experiences, and also it gives us a chance to hold companies accountable if they are not doing it right. It gives us a chance to guide professionals of color in the right direction. It's funny - I'm a part of, you know, many different Slack channels. One in particular, Black Tech Women, and just today there were a couple of people that were just talking about, "Hey, I wish I could gain insight on this particular company," or "Do you guys know what's happening to this technology company?" You know, "How's the culture there for people of color?" And I'm like, "Listen, head to ourdipper.com, because we definitely provide that type of insight." So there's a lot more people that's looking for that. They don't want to waste their time in organizations that aren't going to value them, and we're really excited to be, you know, launching something like this that can push professionals of color in the right direction.Zach: I know we're kind of talking, like, around it. Like, we're saying, like, you know, at a high level what it is, but, like, from what we talked about, Netta, in our conversation--like, help me understand. If we were to, like, kind of compare it to something, is it almost like Glassdoor but, like, for the black people? And brown people?Netta: I don't want to say Glassdoor, right? We could say maybe, like, if Glassdoor, Yelp, and Black Lives Matter had a baby. Zach: Oh, snap. Okay, got you. I got you.Jacinta: That was good.Netta: Can I get a boom or a bang?Zach: Oh, hold on. Hold on, I apologize. Hold on, hold on, hold on. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? I got y'all. I got y'all. I was gonna make, like, a really bad joke and say, like, "Is it like Vibraniumdoor?" Jacinta: [laughs] And it's really focused--I think Netta and I--and this is all based on the type of people you have in your network, but, like, I know with my girls, like, you can complain--we can complain to each other. We can vent, but after you're done talking, they're gonna be like, "So what are you doing?" Like, "What are you doing? What are we doing? What are you doing different?" Like, "Are you gonna make a move?" And I think that's where we saw the gap. It's like, "Yes, we want you to vent, we want you to have a safe space," but we also think it is time and there needs to be a space for someone to ask an organization, "What are you doing? "What are you doing to fix it?" "What are you doing to make this better?" "What are you doing to retain these talented people who are exiting, and they all happen to be brown?" You know, just really addressing critical issues and making that information, you know, accessible to them but within reason. Accessible and actionable, you know? 'Cause this is a safe place, and it is an anonymous platform, you know? And that is the key. We want people to feel protected, because they are, and I think a lot of times we don't speak out. And Netta often talks to me about this, like, "People aren't speaking out because they don't feel safe." And so that was very important to us, that this community is our top priority, and, like, that is where we want our goal to be.Zach: So it kind of sounds--again, while keeping people safe, it's like you really got receipts on people. So let's just say, like, if--I don't know, I ain't tryna mess up my sponsorship dollars so I'm not gonna say a company, but let's just say Insert Company Here was like, "We're mad inclusive," and y'all come back with the receipts looking like [haha sfx]. Like, "No, you're not," you know what I'm saying? We got all these people saying there's some issues you need to shape up. But we also talked about the fact that, like, it's not just for airing organizations out. It also can be a place where people are also giving positive feedback and stories, right?Netta: Right.Jacinta: Absolutely.Netta: And overall, we want these companies improved, you know? If they're not doing well, we want to be able to provide them with the solutions to solve that issue. We're not leaving them high and dry, and, you know, I think that's the difference with other platforms or a Glassdoor or a Yelp. ["stupid" sfx plays in the background] We're looking to improve these companies. Jacinta: Mm-hmm. And you want to know where--like, you want to know if some place is a good place for you to go to, and we get--just as many bad reviews as we get we get good ones, and, you know, we get people who are like, "I've had a great experience here. I've been able to grow. I've been developed. I have an amazing mentor. I want more people who are brown and more people of color to come here. I don't want to be the only one." You know? So I want to see them here more and know about the opportunities here. Zach: No, it's really cool, and I do hear your point around, like, you're not just gathering the data just to gather the data. Like, there's a consulting play to it too, right? Where you then say, "Look, this is what people are saying good and bad. Here are our recommendations," and then you're able to actually come alongside them to your point and actually, like, be a partner. And I think it's interesting because there's so many organizations out there, even as we have these group meetings and Slacks and folks are venting and stuff, [and] there really has yet to be one central location where we'll be like, "Mm-mm. Dawg, don't go over there. Mm-mm." You know what I'm saying? But it should be like that. Like, you know, the Lion King remake came out. People want to act like the Lion King remake wasn't fire. I thought it was great, but whatever. So remember, like, when Mufasa was, like, looking over the cliff, right, and he was talking to Simba, and he was like, "Everything the light touches is your kingdom," and Simba was like, "Oh, snap. What about over there?" He said, "That is the elephant graveyard. You don't ever go over there. Relax." That's pretty much like--you know, that's an opportunity for Dipper too, but, like, we don't really have that. We don't have a collective, you know, Pride Land overview of the workplace as it were.Netta: Yeah, and companies--I believe it was last year, McKinsey and Company did a study, and, like, companies are spending more than $8 billion on diversity and inclusion efforts. And we're like, "Who is that benefiting?" Zach: It ain't benefiting nobody. We've still got blackface on company pencils.Jacinta: Exactly. We're not on your board of directors. Few and far between of us are CEOs of the Fortune 500, 1000 companies, and, you know, we get pings--Netta and I get pings all of the time, especially in, like, the VC world, of people saying, "Do you know somebody who could be my chief of operations? Do you know somebody who could be my chief of people?" And we're like, "Absolutely." Like, I will respond to people with a list, LinkedIn profiles connected, you know? Because we feel we are here, we exist, and there just really needs to be this space for us. And there are people also who have done this before us, you know? There are people who may have been peers to my father [kids applause sfx] and they have a lot of insights to share, but they don't have a place to share them, you know? So it's kind of like we can't all go to the conference, we can't all go to the talk, but you could participate in our website and go to ourdipper.com.Netta: Right, and I think companies definitely have this warped perception of that "Okay, well, if we have a few black and brown faces, we've won," you know? "Let's put out the PR," and obviously it's much deeper than that like Jacinta was saying. There's the equity piece. Are we giving people the access and the exposure to not only move up but to have a voice and are able to lead, you know, in their own way? A lot of the times, when we hear about black and brown folks' experiences that are in high-level positions, they're still kind of oppressed, right? They really don't have that power to lead and that confidence. So, you know, those are key data points that we definitely want to bring out and share, again so that these companies are improved.Zach: Man, you said a lot right there, you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to, like, wear out the Flex bomb, so I'ma just give it a little break. [all laugh] And you know--this is the thing, right? There is a--I don't know. I feel like sometimes, you know, these companies, they think they've just done SO much when they put, like, two black people in charge, you know what I'm saying? And we're like, "Yeah, but there's nobody else." And then these two--like you just said, these two black people, like, they're not really doing anything, or you just kind of shuffle 'em out there and they just kind of say some canned message that you wanted them to say. They're not really moving the needle in no kind of way. You talk to 'em and they're looking back at you--you know, they're looking back at you like that blank face on Get Out, you know what I'm saying? You go in for the dap, they grab your fist. You're like, "What happened?" Like, what's going on, you know what I'm saying? So--Jacinta: Or they sometimes don't have the support. They really don't have that support, so they're feeling alone, you know? Even if there's just two, two of you, it's like you may not have that guidance that you need to feel confident to really make those moves that you may want to make, and I think that happens with a lot of people.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. 'Cause I'ma tell you for me, like, you know, I'm in a position--and often times I'm one of the only ones in these spaces, but if I see one--if I see somebody that looks like me but maybe is, like, I don't know, my dad's age, I'm like, "Oh, snap, what's going on?" And they don't say anything back to me or they kind of give me some, you know, guarded response, I go--now, outside I'm smiling, but on the inside I'm like [damn, damn, damn sfx] You know what I'm saying? Just, like, what's going on?Jacinta: Yeah, and that's--and I wonder too, like, how many times are we, in these leadership roles and scared, you know, to--'cause I know I've walked in meetings, and this is me jokingly, like, you know, if there are more than three of us gathered, I'm gonna make an announcement. [laughs]Zach: What you gonna announce?Jacinta: Like, if we're at work and I walk in a meeting and there's three of us, I'm like, "Oh, we're meeting." You know, "This is happening." You know, I'm excited about it, but I do think there's definitely a category of people who are kind of working in fear, but part of that is just--like we were talking about earlier, knowing your voice, feeling confident and being able to use your voice, and that's part of it. Like, you're just at a place where you don't feel like it's safe enough for you to even have a voice.Netta: Right. I mean, I've even had people say to me they've been nervous to connect with, you know, another black or brown person in the workspace because they didn't want others to feel like they were trying to take over, right? So it would be--like, they would do a little silent text, like, "Meet me outside," and I'm like, "What?" You know? And so that happens a lot too. Zach: No, it does, and I think--how much of that, I wonder, is, like, also generational though? 'Cause, like, it gets to a certain point--and what excites me about Dipper and what I'm hearing is it kind of, like, removes the excuse of white gaze, right? Like, I'm not--white GAZE. G-A-Z-E, y'all. Gaze, you know what I'm saying? White gaze. Yeah, so just the idea of, you know, you needing to kind of, like, be performative in some way or hide a part of who you are, right? Because, you know, come on. Like, really? I mean, you know, we was kings and stuff, but I'm saying, like, two of us can't take over an entire Fortune 50 company. Like, come on now. Like, I should be able to have a conversation with you in the elevator without, you know, y'all thinking we plotting the revolution, right? Stokely Carmichael is not in here. Huey P. Newton is not here.Jacinta: I'm also like, "So what if we are?" [all laugh]Zach: I'm saying. I'm looking back at them like [Cardi B hehe sfx], you know what I'm saying?Jacinta: Because some of it is part--you know, what I think I have kind of lived by in the workplace is if I'm exceeding my performance metrics, if I am busting my tail to, like, meet goals, is there really a boundary? I mean, if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, is there a boundary? Now, sometimes there are hurdles for you being able to successfully do what you're doing, and that needs to be addressed, but, you know, I think if you have a team full of people who are brown, but they're the top team in the company, nobody--people see green, you know? And nobody is going to say anything. I think the problem is when there's a board seat available, people see their friends in their immediate network, and those people all look alike, and so it's like, "How do we get into that flow?" And really we have to do it working together, you know? It can't just be the one person. It really is going to take a lot of us working together. 'Cause who's gonna tell you--like, wh's gonna give you the heads up that, like, "Oh, I know that's your salary, but every other president in the company is making five times that." [laughs] You know? Like, you're going to need those types of insights, and sometimes you're not going to know that if you don't have [?]--Netta: [? drive that?].Jacinta: Yeah, exactly. Zach: So let's talk a little about 2020, right? Like, what are y'all most excited about that Dipper is gonna be doing, like, in 2020? Like, what has y'all, like, really going?Jacinta: Mm-hmm. For me, because I love tech and I love data, that's what I think about almost every night, and I think in 2020 our product is really going to evolve. You know, right now we have the ability to go onto our site, write a review, share their experience, and in 2020 it'll be even so much greater and so much more, and that is something that really excites me about what's to come. You know, the more people who are joining our community, the more in-depth we can make that community experience, and the things that we want to do to provide people with insights on, you know, like we said, salary, available jobs, are just really exciting to me, and all of that data and information that people will have at their fingertips just makes me really looking forward to the new year.Zach: So this has been a dope conversation and we appreciate both of y'all being here. Again, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to everything that y'all are doing. Shout-out to Dipper, you know what I'm saying? I really enjoyed this conversation. I've enjoyed the soundbites. Have y'all enjoyed the soundbites? I've enjoyed my own soundbites - have y'all enjoyed the soundbites?Netta: Yes.Jacinta: Absolutely.Zach: Okay, great. You know what we haven't done, you know what I'm saying, we have not really given y'all the respect of, you know, these air horns, so Sound Man, go ahead and put these air horns right HERE. [air horns sfx] You know, it's just a compliment. It's a thing that we do. It's customary, you know what I mean? It's been over--it's almost, like, two years, and we've been playing these air horns for the good guests. Now, we haven't had any bad guests, but I'm just saying, sometimes we play the air horns just a little bit louder, you know what I mean? And y'all are on the louder side, so we appreciate y'all. Before we go, any shout-outs or parting words?Netta: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for having us on this platform. This was awesome. We're really excited about, you know, the partnerships, the meaningful relationships that we're creating, you know, with different organizations, and we're really excited about our full dynamic platform that's gonna be revealed to the world. This is truly gonna be game-changing and helpful for people of color that are really looking to be guided in the right direction.Jacinta: Absolutely, and I mirror that sentiment exactly. We're so thankful for this opportunity and to be able to speak with you and your audience, and, you know, really just shout-out everybody, all of you who have left a review, who have sent us your feedback and cheering us on, patting us on the back, and even those of you that have challenged us--and maybe even shaded us a little bit--you know, it's all fuel.Zach: Big up to our haters one time.Jacinta: [laughs] We love it, yeah. You can't live without 'em, and, you know, it's been an amazing ride, and it's just the beginning, and, you know, we're just incredibly thankful.Zach: Well, first of all, look, we appreciate y'all. And look, y'all, if you're listening to this--I want everybody to stop, okay? If you're in your car, you know what I'm saying, pull over to the side of the road, okay? Put your hazards on and go to ourdipper.com. This is not even an ad. It's just for the love, you know what I mean? Like, y'all didn't pay us nothing, you know what I mean? It's just off the muscle. So go to ourdipper.com. And you go ahead and just scroll down, you know what I mean, and at the bottom what you're gonna see is--it's gonna say "Need advice? Please take a few moments to provide some insights about your current workplace and experience." Now, look, some of y'all know that Kathy in accounting has been getting on your nerves, okay? Some of y'all know y'all ain't been getting that raise that you need, and some of y'all know you're not having a great experience. Take the time. Go on ourdipper.com. Provide the input. You're not only helping yourself, you're helping everybody that looks like you. And maybe some folks that don't look like you, you know what I'm saying? But lift as you climb. Okay, now, look, this has been a dope episode. Y'all know you've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out anywhere on LivingCorporate--we're on all the platforms. iHeartRadio, Spotify, Soundcloud, YouTube, you know, Pandora. What's another streaming--Google Play, you know what I'm saying? We out here is my point. We active, you know what I mean? Jacinta, 'cause you said you were an [fraternity/sorority], right? [all laugh] We active, you know what I'm saying? You know, we ain't just show up on Homecoming Week, you know what I'm saying, giving people problems. Like, we actually--Jacinta: No t-shirt wearing. [laughs]Zach: Exactly. We're not no [?], you know what I'm saying? We earned ours, you know what I'm saying? We went through the [?]. Don't play with us. [both laugh] So the point is, you know, we appreciate y'all. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. If you have any questions you want to email us, you know what I'm saying, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also just DM us if you have any questions and you want to shout us out. If you want us to shout somebody out for y'all, hit us up. Let's see. Website? Living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, you also could do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We've got all of the livingcorporates, y'all... we don't have livingcorporate.com, though. Not yet. Not yet.Jacinta: Soon come.Zach: Soon come, hey. [both laugh] Let's see here. That's it. You've been listening to Zach, and of course you've been listening to Netta and Jacinta, co-founders and movers and shakers of Dipper and Edge Snatchers. Peace.

Zach sits down with award-winning author and race and gender empowerment expert Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever to talk about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Dr. Avis also shares some advice for black and brown women who are still struggling to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work.Connect with Avis on her website and through social media! Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInCheck out her book, How Exceptional Black Women Lead, on Amazon!Read her piece on NBC BLK! Black Women, Work and the Normalcy of DisrespectTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every episode we try to bring y'all something special, right? We either have an influencer, an educator, a speaker, an author, you know, a mover, a shaker, you know? And today we're actually blessed to have all of those things and more with our guest, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever. Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever is an Award-Winning Author, International Speaker, Political Commentator, and Race & Gender Empowerment Expert. As a serial entrepreneur, Dr. Avis is the founder of the Washington DC Boutique Consulting Firm, Incite Unlimited, along with The Exceptional Leadership Institute and World Changers Media, LLC. Dr. Avis’ organizations offer leadership, diversity & inclusion, entrepreneurship and media training along with communications strategy development and the implementation of impactful research. Her clients include major corporations, non-profit organizations and governmental entities based both domestically and abroad. So that's everywhere, okay? Now, look, some of y'all probably have already seen Dr. DeWeever 'cause she's had--she's been seen on a variety of platforms, including CNN, Fox News, PBS, C-SPAN, TV One, BET, BBC, NPR, Sirius XM Radio--come on, now--the Washington Post, the Atlantic, Essence, Ebony, and many, many more. She currently serves as a Contributor to The Huffington Post, Black Enterprise and NBC BLK. Now, look here. I gotta get something for that. [Cardi B "ow" sfx]. Okay, now look, Dr. Avis also serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the Voter Participation Center, Women’s Voices. Women’s Vote, and the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation. In addition, she’s the Sr. Public Policy Advisor to the Black Women’s Roundtable, an Affiliated Scholar to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, and a member of the Closing the Racial Wealth Gap Initiative. But in her most important role, she serves as a mother to two magnificent young men who will one day, undoubtedly, change the world. Dr. DeWeever, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Avis: I am doing [laughs]--I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.Zach: Oh, no, thank you for being here. Now look, I've got all these questions for you, but the first question, which I recognize has to be the question on top of everybody's mind... which one of these sandwiches is better? Is it the Chick-fil-A sandwich or is it the Popeyes sandwich?Avis: [laughs] Okay. Well, you know, everybody was talking about the whole Popeyes thing, so I just had to try it 'cause, you know, I'm just like, "What is all the commotion about?" Zach: Of course, of course.Avis: And I'm not a big Chick-fil-A person either, so--I have to be honest, I've never even tasted Chick-fil-A’s sandwich 'cause I'm not really that much into chicken sandwiches. I don't really get the purpose of putting the chicken in-between two pieces of bread.Zach: [horrified] Oh, no...Avis: I don't know. To me, the Popeyes chicken--okay, unpopular opinion, it was so darn crunchy I didn't really hardly get a taste. All I tasted was the outside.Zach: Oh, the skin.Avis: I try to stay away from fried stuff anyway, so.Zach: Well, good for you for taking care of yourself. You've got to manage your temple. Avis: Exactly.Zach: You know, it's a long-term investment.Avis: You ain't lying there. [both laugh] Hey, listen. If I would've had--if I had the metabolism I had 20 years ago, I'd be all the way in on a chicken sandwich. Since I don't, I'm leaving it alone, right?Zach: [laughs] Hey, I definitely understand. Now, I have yet to try it--well, let me take it a step back. I've yet to try the Popeyes sandwich, but I just--I don't know, man. It's hard. And this is not an ad, you know, and of course Chick-fil-A has their own problematic points of view as well, but I don't know. I just don't know, Doc. I don't know if I can get with that Popeyes. I don't know, but, you know, it's the total experience. Anyway, look, let's--all jokes aside, [both laugh] today we're talking about--we're talking about a few things, 'cause you have so much to offer, right? So we're gonna talk about a few things. We're talking about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Now, you've written a number of works that encapsulate perspectives and frustrations of black folks, specifically black women. Can you speak a bit about some of the works that you've written and how those challenges don't stop when you get to work?Avis: Absolutely. So I think probably my most significant work in this area is my book, "How Exceptional Black Women Lead," and with that I interviewed over 70 black women across the nation who--and some internationally--who are absolutely extraordinary in what they do, have ascended to amazing levels in terms of leadership success across a variety of different career platforms--or areas I guess is a better way of saying it--and I have to say, still all of them faced the double whammy, the double barrier, of being black and being a woman and having to sort of navigate the intersections of that all along the way to get to where they were, and I think the bottom line is that we all face, no matter where we are, no matter what industry we're in, whether we're corporate, whether we're non-profit, you know, whether we're entrepreneurs, those same--there are different rules that seem to be in play when it comes to us as compared to the other guys, and the bottom line is that we just--we recognize that as the reality, but we cannot let those bumps in the road become road blocks. We have to figure out how to navigate around them, and so what I've found inspiring by speaking with these amazing women is that they found a way to break through those road blocks, to get over those humps and bumps, and still make a way to the top. And if they can do it, other people can do it too.Zach: No, 100%, and it's so interesting too. I think that, you know, it's so easy--well, on my side, 'cause I'm a man, so I participate in patriarchy and male privilege, and I think about the more and more that I talk to--of course my mother as I've just gotten older and just, like, kind of think back about times when I was a child and some of the things she experienced at work, as well as just my black female colleagues. When I talk to them, just the amount of trauma and abuse and disrespect that, like, y'all endure and just casually put up with, right?Avis: Yeah. Oh, God.Zach: Right? And it's--like, every time I meet a black woman at work, she always has at least one extra degree more than I do, right? You know, you and I were having this conversation on Black Women's Equal Pay Day, and it just--there's a pattern here of black women being underpaid and overeducated, overqualified for the roles, and underpromoted, right? Undersponsored. You know, just to the point you're looking at 'em like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know? Just, like, "What's going on?" [both laugh]Avis: Oh, my god. That was perfect. [both laugh] Oh, it's so true. And in fact, you know, actually I wrote a piece for NBC BLK called Black Women and the Normalcy of Disrespect, and it talks exactly about this issue. Everything that you mentioned, plus on top of that the issue of often times having your brilliance basically gentrified by other people in the workplace, right? So doing the hard work, not getting the credit, seeing other people that you basically trained leapfrog over you, it has in many ways become normal, and I think--and that also is related to another fact, that black women are the leading demographic in the nation just to say "Bump this," and start their own businesses, right? Because I think many of us come to the realization that "If my brilliance is not gonna be respected here, why am I giving away my pearls for this? To this?" Right? "Why not cast my pearls in my own favor?" And so a lot of us are making that transition to entrepreneurship because we understand that the work that we do in the workplace often times is disrespected, is not--does not really lead to the same sort of outcomes that other people face, and so because of that we think about, well, we don't want to spend our lives in that situation. Why not see what we can do in terms of turning our intellectual capital into a good--not just for somebody else, but for ourselves.Zach: Amen, Dr. Avis. And look, those little Biblical references, you're not sleeping on me. I heard you. I got one for you too - 'cause sometimes you gotta just, you know, shake the dust from your feet, you know what I mean?Avis: Exactly. [laughs]Zach: So you just gotta make it happen, you know? But no, you're absolutely right, and I think there's also--so I'd love for you and I to talk about this in a separate conversation, but, you know, Living Corporate, what we're really trying to do right now is do some research to talk about and connect the reality of work trauma, work-related trauma, with--like, the mental health impacts of work-related trauma to black and brown folks at work, because there's something that I believe--and again, I don't have a Ph.D, okay? I'm not out here hanging out with Roland Martin like you, Dr. DeWeever, but I do believe--[both laugh]--I do believe that there's some mental--I do believe it impacts your mental health to be the person who's putting all the thought leadership in, but then someone comes in, quote unquote cleans it up, and then they get all of the credit for it, right? I think that that's--that does something to you over time.Avis: It can be traumatic, and dealing with a daily sort of barrage of microaggressions and macroaggressions and not seeing other people sort of stand up and acknowledge what it is and call a thing a thing is also traumatic. I just had a conversation with a client last night who is a tenured professor at a university, went to an event at her university where there was a guest speaker, and apparently the guest speaker--white--used the N-word, and--[record scratch sfx] And she was shocked. She was insulted. And just as much as she was shocked and insulted, she was also hurt that none of her white colleagues said anything. Zach: No, that's terrible. That's terrible.Avis: So in essence she felt betrayed, right? So, you know, it is traumatic. It can be traumatic to continue to suffer those indignities every day, which is basically a coded behavior in our society that says that--that tries to tell us the lie, basically, that we don't belong, that we are not important, that we're not valued, and I think a lot of the work that I do, whether it be through my writing, whether it be through my sort of coaching with women around these issues, is really about saving our souls from that daily assault that we face in the workplace and figuring out strategies to navigate it in a way that maintains our self-dignity and allows us to put ourselves in situations where we do garner respect, whether or not that means navigating those spaces within that environment in a way that changes that dynamic so that you are treated with the respect that you deserve, or in some situations it may mean finding a better environment that is healthier for you, because it does not do you any good to stay in a workplace that is constantly assaulting your dignity. It will impact your health. It will impact your peace of mind. And let me tell you, no check is worth that.Zach: Oh--listen, hold on. Hold on. [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Listen, 'cause--and this is the thing. I think we're in a really interesting intersection of increased awareness--if I'm gonna go by social media, and if I look at, like, the wellness trends today, especially within, like, the black and brown community, we're in an interesting intersection of millennials being more and more prominent in the workplace and mental health being, like, more and more openly discussed, and I think that, you know, we've seen trends now that people--like, my generation will leave. You know, they're talking about "This ain't working?" You know what I'm saying? They'll say, "Well, you know, if you're not gonna be able to work these crazy hours and be treated like this, you're gonna have to find a new job." We'll be like [Shannon Sharpe "that ain't no problem" sfx]--it's not a problem. Like, we will transition, you know? [both laugh]Avis: I would be like, "Deuces!"Zach: Deuces. Like, goodbye.Avis: But you know what? That in and of it self is a good strategy. You know, I think we need to acknowledge the wisdom of that in a couple of different ways. I mean, not only are you saving your soul from those stressors that, as I mentioned, impact your physical health and your mental health, quite frankly your strongest point of negotiation when it comes to salary is when you have a new job opportunity. So moving to that next opportunity and that next opportunity and that next opportunity in a relatively short period of time helps you to be able to exponentially grow your earning power a lot more than individuals often times who choose to spend long periods of time in one place and get stuck and have a hard time moving up that ladder. [cha-ching sfx] So I think often times people talk about millennials in very disparaging ways, and I think in many ways some of those folks need to sit back and watch y'all and learn from what you're doing, because that makes nothing but sense to me.Zach: Oh, listen. If you look at my little LinkedIn--and I'm not leaving a job every couple months, don't get me wrong, but I've zig-zagged. I've got a little positive zig-zag action going on, and you just gotta keep your eyes open, 'cause I'll show up to a whole new job talking about [Kawhi "what it do baby?" sfx] Like, I will leave. Like, I will--boy. Anyway, [both laugh] let's keep it going. You know what? And this is the thing, Dr. DeWeever. You're making me laugh more, so then I'm using more of these sound effects, but that's fine. I appreciate the encouragement. Let's talk about the role that intersectionality plays in the work that you do, right? And so Incite Unlimited, you know, you're a D&I expert--you're a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert. What does it look like to discuss race and gender and engage white women, who may assume that your challenges and lived experiences are either if not the same highly similar?Avis: That's a problem. [both laugh, haha sfx] That's a huge problem. But in all seriousness, honestly, these days, I'm so frustrated with where we are in the D&I space period, DE&I space. I'm frustrated because many companies--and I talk about this a bit in my book--for years now, actually, have made the decision--they've made the calculated decision to preference gender diversity over racial diversity in their efforts and in their focus and programming as it relates to looking at DE&I and how it is lived out in their companies. And as I show in my book, what we've seen--and it's interesting, 'cause this dates back to 2008--we start to see a shift in who gets promoted to leadership positions in corporations, and it's interesting. It's as if there was this collective decision among corporations that "Okay, there's a black president, so black people have made it, so let's stop focusing on black folk." Right?Zach: Yes.Avis: And so what we see, if you look at the data about who actually gets promoted to management positions, is we see an exponential increase in the number of white women who get those positions, and at the same time we've seen a mirrored effect of a decrease in the number of people of color of both genders who get those positions. So now, even though we're in a time right now where corporations are, you know, every time, you know, you see them, any time you hear anything around corporations around this issue of diversity, a lot of them have a good, you know, shtick to sell. All of them know what to say. They always talk about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but when you actually look at the numbers, you actually have corporations that are getting whiter and whiter, even though they tend to tout the language of diversity, but they're just checking that box with white women instead of with people of color. So in many organizations you end up having what I call an organizational apartheid, where the leadership structures now are increasingly white, even though now you have more of those leaders wearing skirts than you did in years past. But you have even more whiteness at the top now than you did, say, 10 years ago.Zach: Listen, I had a--I was on the job, and I was talking to somebody, and they were talking about diverse the group was. And I was like, "The group is all white women." What do you mean "diverse?" Like, diverse in what way? Diverse in, like, that they're all not blonde? Or--like, what is this? And you're 100% right, and I--so look, this is the thing, right? So I am in--I'm actively in corporate America, right? Like, I'm in this space. I work for a large consulting firm. And it's increasingly frustrating, because you're absolutely--I 100% agree with you. I'm looking at the content and I'm looking at the way that things are framed, and they are often framed in very binary terms, right? They're framed in very, like, "men versus women," and it's like, "You're really going--" Like, it's insulting. Like, it's not only just ahistorical, right? It's an intellectually dishonest discussion. Avis: Absolutely.Zach: Right? It's intellectually dishonest, because in 1865, in 1845, all men were not doing the same things, okay?Avis: Absolutely not.Zach: Right? And all women were not doing the same things. And so it's like, "Okay, what does it look like to have an honest conversation about this?" You know, we actually had Lionel Lee, who--he's an inclusion lead for the Zillow Group, and I asked him, I said--like, we're just now getting to talking about black women from time to time, and we've yet to--I haven't really been a part of a lot of programs that explicitly talk about black male experiences, right? And I'm like--and look, I don't even do it and D&I is a large part of my job. I don't even do it because I recognize that I need to use my platform and my privilege to help my sisters, and--not but--and at the same time I'm like, "Dang, why don't we ever talk about the reality and nuanced experience of black men?" Like, yes, we benefit from patriarchy, and yes, we have--we have privileges that black women do not have. We're also seen as a threat at work. We're also often times patronized in a way, and it's a unique--but we don't even talk about that kind of stuff. And you're right--Avis: You're exactly right, and I would say you also suffer wage gaps. Zach: Right.Avis: People talk about wage gaps as if it's just a gender thing. It's not. It's a race and a gender thing. So just as, you know, black women, for example, suffer a double wage gap as compared to white men--which, as you mentioned, we're recording this on Black Women's Equal Pay Day. You know, black men have a pay gap with white men of similar educational backgrounds, and so black men aren't paid fairly either. And then if you look within the women's population, black women suffer a wage gap as compared to white women. Right? So no one really talks about these realities. It's not as simple as just a gender dynamic. You're exactly right. In this nation, race, color, is--no pun intended--everything. Everything. Yet, you know, there is only a sense of urgency around talking about this issue of gender at work and addressing those issues. And, you know, my theory behind that is, you know, it--let's just be real. I mean, this white men who stand at the top of the hierarchy in these spaces have white mothers. They have white wives. They have white daughters. So there is a natural alliance there that they tend to be more sensitive to than they are to black male issues, black female issues, or issues of any people of color. And so, you know, I think it's important that we acknowledge that reality, and until DE&I becomes serious about taking off the blinders and having an honest conversation around--and not just conversation, honest actions around really creating equity at work through both a race and gender lens, it will really be nothing in many ways but a farce in many organizations, where they can do a little something, have a few programs on a few special days, but when it comes to really making [?] change they cower, much like the rest of this culture. It's very hard--I wouldn't say it's hard. The normalcy of white privilege in our society creates a situation where whiteness does not want to take responsibility for its actions. As we're recording this, not only is it Black Women's Equal Pay Day, I'm actually in Hampton right now about to attend [?] activities around the 400th anniversary of the first Africans who came to America. In slave ships. I'll put it like that. And we still--you see what happened when the New York Times published the 1619 piece, where you have all of these supposedly legitimate, quote unquote, voices on the right come out, and they simply deny the reality of the history of this nation. Yeah, so we have a relatively easy time in America at least acknowledging issues of sexism. Like, we don't deny facts when it comes to, like, you know, the history of sexism, right? But to have people act like the reality and the brutality of what slavery was, to call that propaganda, to me, serves as a great example of the level of dysfunction that we are in this nation when it comes to really being honest around the oppressive nature of racism, not just in the past. We can't even cop up to what happened 400 years ago. That really puts a spotlight on why it's so important and why it's so hard for people to cop up to what's happening right here in the here and now.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Had to give you a Flex bomb. You're absolutely right. You're dropping straight facts. Now, look, I want to respect your time, so let's keep going. One topic that Living Corporate has discussed in the past has been respectability politics. Now, I'm a firm believer that respectability still shapes a large amount of the ways that we, as black and brown folks, show up in any space. What has been your experience with respectability politics in the realms that you engage?Avis: Yeah. I mean, that is--it's a big thing. It's a big thing, where people have to make the choice, in many ways, like, how do you navigate situations at work where there are sensitivities around institutionalized racism. Do you sort of call it out at the moment, or do you try to play the game and hope that it will make--you know, things will improve over time? I really think--I personally have a problem with respectability politics, and it may just be that I'm a rebel--[both laugh]--but really, logically I'm thinking, "What are you really gaining when you're sacrificing your soul?" Really, what are you gaining? And then what are you changing, right? What you're doing is you're legitimizing the unfair behavior when you contort yourself in a way in which you have to minimize who you are in order to be accepted. I'll give you a brief example. When I--you know, I've had my locks. I have locks, and I've padlocked my locks now for well over 20 years. I started them when I was in graduate school, well before it became cool, okay? [Cardi B "ow" sfx, both laugh] And so when I started my locks, I remember my mom told me at the time, "Oh, my God. You'll never get a job," you know? But at the time I told her, and it has borne out to be true, that, you know, if someone does not want to hire me because of what's on my head versus what's in my head, then that's some place I don't want to work, right? Because that tells you something about that environment, right? And so to me that's just an example of respectability politics. If I have to change who I am to fit in with you, then I don't need you, boo-boo. I don't need that. You're not the only place on earth. Really.Zach: Absolutely not. [laughs]Avis: And that goes for relationships too, but that's a whole 'nother story.Zach: Oh, my goodness. You're gonna have to come back for that one. You're 100% right though. Okay, so now--[both laugh]--do you believe that respectability has increased or decreased in this era of Trump? And I'm gonna say era of Trump because come on, now. First of all, this is my podcast. I'll say what I want to say. But two, it's the reality of, like, the fact that we live in an era that is, in certain ways--so I'm not one of the people that thinks like, "Oh, it's so much more racist now." America has been racist since its inception. However, or with that being said, there is a certain level or spirit of boldness that is in the atmosphere that is, I would say, unique to this time, but not exclusive to this time. With all of those different exceptions we said at the top, do you believe respectability has increased or decreased in the era of Trump, and what role do you predict it playing for the next generation of black and brown folks at work?Avis: Mm-hmm. I think respectability has decreased in the era of Trump, precisely because of what you previously mentioned. I mean, in this time we are seeing a space where, even though racism has always been around, it's not been new to America, it's been here from the very beginning, we are experiencing a moment where there is greater social acceptability, or at least perceived social acceptability, for overt racist acts, right? And so because of that, people are engaging in more racist actions in broader society, which includes in the workplace, okay? And I think that it's also created sort of a counter-reaction, where people are also becoming more activists in terms of resisting those behaviors. Now, people find different ways to fight back, but I do think that where there is an action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and in this moment, while we're seeing a rise in hate crimes, a rise in hate groups all across the nation, we're also seeing [?] and activism to fight against it. And so if there is, hopefully, a silver lining that we might find behind this moment, it is my hope that what it has done is it has awakened people who maybe had been lulled into a sense of false security under the Obama administration to say, "You know what? We haven't gotten as far as I thought we've gotten. In fact, we're starting to move backwards." And I just can't go along to get along anymore. The time has now come to fight back, and I'm hoping that's what more and more people are doing, and from what I see that seems to be the case.Zach: I 100% agree with you. 'Cause, you know, as an example, Dr. Jones-DeWeever--so I used to kind of, like, take a break--you know, like, let's say, like, in Obama's time, you know, I would walk outside, just take a nice little stroll, but see, now, in the era of Trump, I feel extra black. So I take--I got my menthols, and I just smoke right outside. Maybe I take some Black and Milds. You know, it's nothing, right? I might even put on a durag, because I'm like, you know? You ain't about to stop me.Avis: Put on one black glove.Zach: I put on one black glove as I roll a Newport, okay? [both laugh]Avis: Boy. Man, you'll be scaring folks.Zach: At my desk. While listening to "Strange Fruit" in the background. Listen--[both laugh] I'ma let you go. We're almost done, I promise. Here we go. Your voice is a critical part of everything you do, right? So you're a writer. You're an advocate. You're an activist. You're an educator. You're also a speaker, and you're a political commentator in major mainstream media and independent media. What advice would you give to black and brown women who still struggle to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work?Avis: That is such an excellent question and such an important question, and I think it's first critical--it's interesting. I had a conversation with a client about this today. First of all, you have to realize that you do have a voice. It's there. No one has the right or the ability to take away you, what's inside of you and what's for you, right? And so I think just acknowledging that your voice is there and that your voice has value is the first critical step that every black woman has to take. And then you have to say, "How can I best use this to create better outcomes for me?" Right? It's about speaking up when someone takes your idea and tries to pass it off as their own. It's about making sure that you negotiate when that offer is made to you and you don't just take the first number that's thrown your way, you know? It's about speaking up in that meeting and making sure that your perspective is heard. So it's about not shrinking in those moments, and it's then remembering the powerful being that you are and that you deserve to be there and that, 9 times out of 10, you're probably more qualified than everybody else in that room, so lean into that. And that's the only situation where I would ever use the term "lean in," because I will say that, generally speaking, we all know that black women have been leaning in forever, right? But what I really want us to do is understand our power and to vocalize that power and to not feel ashamed about vocalizing it. And if you do get to a situation where you feel that the environment that you're in does not respect you, does not want your contribution, tries to minimize you or silence you, then I think you should definitely look at other opportunities, because this world is replete with opportunities, other job opportunities and opportunities that you can create independently for yourself. And so lean into the beauty of the brilliance within you, and don't let anyone else convince you that it's not there.Zach: Y'all, let me just go ahead and give some air horns for that real fast. [air horns sfx] 'Cause those were all big facts. My goodness gracious. Okay, look, this has been a great conversation. I've had a wonderful time. I also believe--I'm not trying to impose--I believe you've also had a wonderful time, and--Avis: I have! This has been great. Thank you.Zach: Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Avis: I just want some more sound effects, that's all. I'm just, like, really all about the sound effects.Zach: We're right here. Listen, I got 'em all. Look, me and Aaron--I'll listen to something on YouTube and I'll be like, "Aaron, go ahead and take that and drop it in the Dropbox." He's over here--he'll take them little downloads and put 'em in our little folder like [Cardi B "bratbratbrat" sfx] You know, we got all kinds of content, okay? So we're ready. [both laugh, Cardi B "hehe" sfx]Avis: I love it. [laughs]Zach: All right. Okay, listen, y'all. Thank you so much for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, we're everywhere. I used to say all of the little places that we're at, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, but I don't do that anymore. I just say "Google us" at this point, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause God has enlarged our territory, okay? We are continuing to expand and grow, okay? And so if you just Google "Living Corporate," you will find us, okay? We're on every streaming platform. You can check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate and look for us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, okay? We're out here. If you want to listen and make sure that you actually can check out all of Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever's books and speaking engagements and where you can contact her more, check out the show notes. We got 'em all right there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You have been listening to Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, speaker, educator, activist, mother of two, and all-around dope person. Catch y'all later. Peace.

Zach sits down with Cedric Chambers, the founder and CEO of JUMP Recruits, to discuss the definition of the term "diversity" and the concept of diversity of thought. Cedric also offers a few recommendations to CEOs and chief HR officers who want to see their organization become more diverse.Check out JUMP Recruits and connect with Cedric on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and today is another day, another dope interview. Y'all know how we do, okay? So this is not--okay, like, we're coming up on--shoot, actually, let me say this. By the time this episode drops, we might be past 100 episodes, you know what I'm saying? Might have already hit the century mark. In fact, let me go ahead and hit these air horns just--you know, just in case we hit it already by the time this one drops, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] You know, for those who don't know, Living Corporate amplifies the voices of black and brown folks at work. We interview executives, influencers, creatives, movers and shakers, the next folks up. You know, the real ones, you know what I'm saying? Come on. Like, all skin folk ain't kinfolk, okay? That's another podcast from the day. Those who know know what I'm saying. But we interview the real ones, okay? And today is no different with Cedric Chambers. Cedric is dedicated to enhancing the presence of diversity and inclusion in the workplace one client at a time. As the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, Cedric partners with talented professionals and leading employers to diversify and improve the workforce culture within leading industries and growing sectors. Sound Man, you know what? We gotta drop some more air horns for Cedric. Come on, now. [air horns sfx] And I gotta add one of these Cardi B "ow"s, you know what I'm saying? ["ow" sfx] Just because. Cedric, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Cedric: I'm doing wonderful, Zach. Man, you are amazing. That was the best intro I probably ever heard. [both laugh]Zach: Man, I know I gave you a little intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Cedric: Yes. Well, look, to give kind of the full but be quick about it--so I'm originally from Georgia. Not Atlanta, Columbus, Georgia. And so--actually a little small town about two hours southwest of Atlanta. Grew up, played football, went to college, did my undergrad playing football, graduated from Savannah State with a business degree. I did a little work, you know, in the industry for about a year or so, went back and got my master's at THE Ohio State University, majored in labor and human resources, but then immediately after I got my degree I went into corporate America, spending almost 10 years in HR in various areas in a few different industries, including aviation, medical device, life sciences, pharma. You know, I've had the--over that time I've had the pleasure of traveling all over the world, and I've had opportunities to live in a few different places across the Midwest and Northeast of the United States, and so, you know, what I do and the experiences I bring, right, I believe are one of the values that I hold. I have a wonderful family, a beautiful wife of five years and two incredible kids. And as you mentioned, I am the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, and so just to give a brief, Jump Recruits is a full-service diversity and inclusion technology start-up, and it's dedicated to and about inclusion, opportunity, and successful career outcomes for diverse professionals and employers seeking quality diverse talent. And I've been on this journey for almost three years, actually three years, and like Charles Dickens said, "It's been the best of times, it's been the worst of times," but to be honest, through it all, I wouldn't change anything.Zach: First of all, man, you were talking about I gave one of the best intros. That was one of the best, you know what I'm saying, guest intros. It was just--it was, you know, comprehensive, right? You gave a little bit of the sensitive side with the family tip. You gave some of your vulnerable side on the journey with Jump Recruits, and then you gave a bit of, like, just the history of kind of where you're from and what you did. As a side-note, shout-out to the Georgia boys. I was actually born in Rome, Georgia.Cedric: There you go. Look there, you're country too, man. [laughs]Zach: Oh, listen, with a K. [both laugh]Cedric: And that's the one thing--look, we can talk about it as we get into it, right, but I've been in different environments and, you know, traveling across, and I have a deep Southern dialect, and when I go into different places people immediately, you know, hear that. And so we'll probably get into that a little bit later, but, you know, it's all good, right? Embrace where you come from and just be authentic.Zach: Oh, no doubt, man. And, you know, it's just interesting because for me--just because of my exposure. So I went to--I was in Georgia, and then I went to Dallas, and then I went to Minnesota. So, like, my accent kind of comes and goes, or the drawl of my Southern--like, my Southern drawl kind of will recede or kind of extend during--just depending on the situation, right? But at the same time it don't matter about that part. I tell people all the time. I say, "Listen, don't let this pocket square fool you, okay? I'm very country. Don't play with me." [both laugh] Cedric: I'm with you.Zach: Yeah, man. So look, we're talking today about diversity. It's a super common term, right? And honestly a lot of folks use the term "diversity and inclusion" in a broad swath of ways, right? So, like, for you though, what does diversity mean?Cedric: Yes, great question. So, you know, I would say that, you know, when I think about diversity and the term, right, to me, what I pull from it is uniqueness in every way. You know, whether that be race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, perspective, et cetera. You know, when I think about diversity, I think about the setting and context in which it's being applied and the term, because diversity can have different meanings in different places depending on where you're applying it, right? And so, you know, I've lived around. And so living in Atlanta, diversity can be different than living in Wisconsin, where I've lived, can be different than living in Boston, where I've lived, can be different than living in Ohio, where I've lived, but that commonality that I think of is uniqueness and what are you bringing that's unique, what are you bringing that is one yourself authentic as I said before, but I always think about that is when we want to use this word "diversity" and think about "Yes, things are different," but in a different way, you know, how are you unique, and how are you bringing that uniqueness, you know, to everything that you're doing?Zach: You know, and it's interesting, right? Because a lot of times when we talk about diversity I think, like you just said, it's, like, uniqueness in every way. In every way, right? Checking a variety of boxes, right? Just what does it look to be non-standard or non-default? And so with that being said, I'm curious, do you have any particular thoughts around the concept of diversity of thought, and have you ever gotten that pushback in your work with Jump Recruits--they'll be like, "Okay, I see you have all of these, you know--" "You know, ethnic diversity is the only diversity. [?]. Diversity of thought." Like, what do you--[both laugh] When you hear that, like, what is your response?Cedric: Oh, man. I'm not gonna make it through this interview. [both laugh]Zach: Nah, I'ma keep it a bean with you. I'ma keep it a bean with you, right? Because when people say "diversity of thought" to me--I don't know how long you've been rocking with the Living Corporate podcast, and I'm actually surprised we didn't get canceled off of this joke, [Cedric laughs] but one time--and I'ma say it again so y'all have the opportunity to cancel me again. I said that white people made diversity of thought in the same lab they made crack. [both laugh] So you know--so now you know the Living Corporate official position, and yes--look, there's nobody y'all can complain to. Y'all listening to the podcast, if y'all got a problem the emails are gonna come to me and Ade, okay? So be mad, all right? Anyway, back to this interview. So Cedric, what your thoughts on diversity of thought, man? [laughs]Cedric: Look, and perspectives, right? You know, I hear a lot of things, and perspective, right, you've got to understand people's perspective, right? And even what you said, like, you know, I can see the perspective, right, and that's the one thing. You've got to come with an open mind and an open heart into situations, but, you know, thinking about diversity of thought--so, you know, unfortunately I have heard "diversity of thought" and have, you know, seen it used as a pushback, and when I hear it it's typically used in the context of either/or, and what I mean is when I'm having these discussions, and, you know, we could be talking about, you know, diversity, we could be talking about ethnicity and these things, and they bring up diversity of thought. They're saying that either I focus on having diversity of race, gender, sexuality, or I focus on having diversity of thought, which is not the way it should be looked at, right? And so it should be viewed as an and, meaning, like, yes, you should value diversity of thought, and then addition value diversity of background," i.e. race, gender, sexuality, et cetera. But so many people take that position of, you know, "I can't value both, and so I'ma go with the safest way out and say I value diversity of thought as a whole," and depending on how long you let those people talk, right, you can get down into the rabbit holes of, you know, the common terms of "I don't see color," X, Y, and Z, right? So, you know, that's a whole podcast by itself. [both laugh] But, you know, when I've encountered it as a pushback, you know, whether it be clients, prospects, or just in general casual conversations, I usually approach it from the perspective of "Hey, look, you're right. Diversity of thought is important and critical to the success of the team, organization, and relationships," but then I always follow up in that discussion with the question of "Well, then how do you acquire diversity of thought?" Because how a person thinks is heavily based on experiences and backgrounds, and if you aren't pulling from different pools and different backgrounds which have different experiences, then how do you achieve this goal of diversity of thought you're ultimately looking for? And I typically at this point get blank stares, [both laugh] which is great for me because now the real conversation can start, and we can start on even ground to say, "Okay, now let's talk through it and work this out."Zach: Man, you know, that's a great answer, and, you know, I'll tell you what I typically say, right? So, for background, right, I'm in change management. Like, I'm a consultant, so, like, I'm having these conversations where people say "diversity of thought," I'll say something like, "Well, you're absolutely right. Diversity of thought is important, and it directly intersects or it is correlated with diversity of race, gender, sexuality, so on and so forth." Those things are not mutually exclusive, right? On the outside they're giving me the blank stares that they give you, but on the inside I know they're doing a [“and I oop” sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh] They trying to figure out like, "Okay, what do I do?" You know what I'm saying? So I definitely get that. So let's do this then. What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard organizations give as to why they don't have black and brown folks in their organizations? I'm talking black and brown disabled people, black and brown LGBTQ people, black and brown immigrants, black and brown--like, just why? Why is that? What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard?Cedric: You know, I'd probably go with the biggest that I've heard, seen, and I think everybody kind of rallies around, but the biggest is that there's an issue with the pipeline and that there isn't enough qualified black and brown talent for those companies to pull from. Which is totally false, right? Zach: Yeah, man.Cedric: And it's like--I'm not gonna go into why do we keep listening to that lie, [both laugh] so--Zach: Well, I think--let me shoot you some bell, right? I think for me it's challenging because it's like--one, I don't think people, like, really examine or really have examined how offensive and insulting that is, right?Cedric: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Like, fam, come on, man. Like, we've been here. Like, so--Cedric: It's like you're doing what you can do, you're pushing out the best, and then someone says, "Well, I still don't see you."Zach: Come on, man.Cedric: And that's where it's coming from. Like, it's like we got so many great, you know, whether it be engineers graduating, you've got so many great doctors, you've got so many great scientists, right? We're doing so many things in the news, and it's still, like, this message of "I still don't see you."Zach: And we're all over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? Like, God. Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And look, I won't be naive to think that there are as many people of color as there are non-people of color, so I won't bet that, but for instance, like, we know that, for a fact, there are less black and brown engineers that graduate for college every year than their counterparts, and the National Society of Black Engineers have done a lot of great research in this area, and they actually have campaigns going on now to increase that number of black engineers graduating every year, black and brown. But what we also know is that from having these discussions daily with corporate leaders as I do, these same organizations are not going to the places and communities where black and brown people are, and they are not effectively attracting and hiring the great talent that's already in the market today. And if I could provide an illustration for you real quick - look at it like this. If I want to go catch a fish, I can't possibly do that by casting my line on land. I must cast in the water where the fish are, and that's what is happening today. Many companies--not all, and I will say not all, but many are casting in the wrong places, and as I see this conversation over and over and I hear this excuse, the question that I often ask myself or that, you know, we must ask is "Are companies knowingly casting in the wrong places because they don't want black and brown talent, or are they misinformed on where to cast?" And honestly I think it's both.Zach: That's a--hold on, hold on. Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] That's a Flex bomb. Yeah, no, you're right. I think it's both. I don't think it's one or the other, and I think really when you talk about these topics, it's often a case of both/and, right? It's rarely ever one versus the other. Because I've had conversations, and I'm--look, I have a nuanced opinion on this, right? Like, when you talk about sourcing candidates--and so, like, you know, you'll hear organizations say, "We're gonna just recruit at all HBCUs." Okay. Yes, you should definitely recruit at the HBCUs, but there's also black and brown folks at the PWIs too, man. [both laugh] Like, all of the black people--like, man all of the black people are not just flocking to HBCUs. HBCUs are expensive. Like, I love me some HBCUs. Ayo, please, y'all, do not cancel me. We love y'all. PV, I see you. Okay? Prairie View, we see you, okay? Texas Southern, we see you. Cedric: Savannah State. Let's go. [laughs]Zach: Savannah State, we see you. Morehouse. Listen, we love y'all, okay? I'm just saying I went to a PWI, and there were many black and brown folks in my space who did not know what they was doing when they graduated, right? So there's talent there. They're in the same rooms with Becky and Keith and whoever else. Like, it's both, man, and I don't know why, but when I hear, like, "pipeline strategies," I hear--I hear--when we talk about minority talent, ethnic minority talent, it's like we're not even trying to think about how we plug into the PWIs. We just say, "Oh, we're just gonna go with the HBCUs." It's like, "You can do both. You can plug into the HBCUs and then look for and look at the student programs," 'cause every PWI has one, right? Every PWI has some program where the black and brown folks have huddled together to say, "Pick us." [laughs] So, like, you just gotta plug in.Cedric: You know, that's right, and it's--the word I'm going to say, for lack of better terms, is laziness. That's what it is, and it's the--you know, being in corporate, right, I've done HBCUs, I've done the PWI. There is a stark difference between the two as far as the resources and opportunities between the two, where I was in a career fair at, you know, HBCUs to where you're talking 20 to 30 companies, a lot of 'em banks and local banks, a lot of 'em militaries--the military is trying to recruit, but then go to PWI, and, like, you're talking about 200 of the Fortune 500 companies in here vying for spots, right? So the opportunity and resources--and then on top of that, when you engage with HBCUs and HSIs and the communities--and let's say this quickly--it's that it's more than money. That's what happened. It's "Hey, let's go give scholarships. Hey, let's go out and let's see, you know, what we can do from a recruiting effort." It's just transactional the entire time, and when you think about big schools, right, to where--whether it's the PWIs, and you think about some of these big companies. One of the biggest differences--if you want to come to an HBCU or an HSI, I need you to look at this long-term, and I need you to look at this and say, "We're talking about money, but not just money, we're talking about resources," i.e. training and development, and there are many institutions--predominantly white--where large companies are staples on their campuses, teaching them the skills and knowledge needed to be successful, not only today but in the future. I mean, these companies have offices in their career development office, right, and they're talking about data analytics, A.I., machine learning. And these companies even have--some of their senior officers are subject matter experts at these campuses teaching the classes. Zach: Man, they be in there. They be hitting up--they tapping every avenue of that relationship like [Cardi B "brat" sfx]. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? They light that thing up.Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And so when you think about all of those resources, then you turn around and say, "Well, look, let's give a scholarship to somebody," or "Let's go out and let's go to this career fair," and then they don't see you again for another 12 months. It's how d you expect to build that pipeline? How do you expect to build that relationship, that brand and all of the little things that come along with it, if you're not invested? Now, I'ma say this, that's not all, but there's definitely a lot that's [?].Zach: Man, you're 100%. So look, I'm also gonna say something else. Cedric, I don't know, man, what [it is] about this interview, but I just feel like I gotta keep it a buck today. We keep it a buck on Living Corporate generally speaking. Like, don't get me wrong. We be dropping heat on here, okay? Hold on. Wait a second. Shout-out to my team, 'cause, like, we really be doing this, you know what I'm saying? [Kawhi "what it do baby" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here, okay? [both laugh] But this is my biggest thing. This is another personal pain point, right, is like we gotta make sure that when black and brown folks--like, when we go out to these HBCUs and, like, we're doing this stuff, like, we have to also bring this thought leadership and take it to the folks who are in charge, right? So, like, we gotta be talking to the recruitment teams, 'cause a lot of times--I'll say in consulting, right? I'm not gonna say the firm. I've been at a few. So I was at a firm, and, like, there was this common narrative that there was an HBCU that we did not hire for, like, the client-facing stuff. We only hired them for the technical stuff, and the reason was because they don't really have the skill set, right? And, like, we would, like--I'm saying, like, the black folks, like, we would lean into that narrative, like, "Yeah, they don't have the skill set. They're just not really--" And it's like, "Okay, first of all, what are you doing? Like, why would you--don't parrot that out loud." Like, let's figure out ways we can help our people. And then two let's, like, just ask the deeper why and think critically about "Well, why don't we believe they have that skill set, and what can we do to help develop that skill set?" And all of the things that you're talking about are 100% facts, but I think it takes a--it's gonna take a joint effort, right? And I 100% agree with you. So let's do this, 'cause I know we're coming up on time. So multiple whitepapers state that before organizations can seek to diversify their organizations, they should seek to diversify leadership and build an inclusive culture. What's your point of view on that, and what does it practically look like for you to help organizations be more inclusive at the leadership level before you start bringing in, like, the campus level undergrad, direct hire talent?Cedric: Oh, man, great question. I think--let's see if I can get both of these. So when it comes to diversity and inclusion, my perspective and point of view is that they have to have it at the same time, and I think that there are different levels at which they happen at. Like, you could float heavy to inclusion but then still do diversity and recruitment and things of that nature and vice versa, but it depends on the organization in which you're in, the culture and what's going on. And I start with inclusion first just to kind of go into it and say, "Let's think this for a second and say, "How do you build an inclusive culture if you don't have any representation, i.e. diversity, from the groups in which you're aiming to affect?" And so--and without this representation, this means that there's nobody from these groups that are able to input on the design of this diversity and inclusion strategy. And so when you talk about this inclusive culture, you have less than 1% of [?] in the organization, you know, less than 20%, you know, women in your organization, how are you gonna go and effectively--and on a leadership level it's definitely not there--how are you gonna go in and actually do this if the representation is not there? And so when you think about diversity, you gotta "Okay, are we bringing leadership in at the same of building that inclusive culture and doing those things at the top and then pushing it down?" As it relates to leadership, look, I would agree, but it goes back to representation, right? How can you effectively have a diversity and inclusion strategy driven from the top down when the top has no representation from the diverse groups in which you're designing for? And so I also say this. We surveyed candidates that had been hired and had received offers from companies. 87% of those candidates that we surveyed say that one of the first things they do when researching the company they're interviewing with is go to the leadership page and see who on the page looks like them. And then--Zach: Keep going, keep going. Preach.Cedric: And of that, 60% of that group say that that was a major factor on whether they accepted the job or not. And if you'll allow me to go just a step further, one of the things we do in our consulting area looks at, like, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and when you think about the top of that pyramid, and we get to self-actualization, the definition of self-actualization is "the realization of one's full potential." So let's think about this. How can I realize my full potential within an organization when I go to the corporate leadership page and I see no one that looks like me? And then how can that help me see myself as rising my career aspirations when I can't see myself on the website, I can't see myself in leadership, you know? I didn't see myself in the interview process with the people that I interviewed with. How can I actually see myself thriving in this organization? I can't.Zach: [straight up sfx, both laugh] No, you can't. Cedric, man, it's so funny. So what I've been doing--'cause I'm coming up on 30, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever.Cedric: Big time.Zach: Man, listen. It's different, man. Things creaking now, you know what I'm saying? Knees be sore for no reason. It's weird.Cedric: I know. It starts raining and your knee hurts, right?Zach: Right. It's like, "What's going on?" Cedric: Yeah, it's coming. It's coming.Zach: [both laugh] But you're 100% right. Like, lately when I do--like, when I interview, right, when I have the opportunity and people reach out, whatever, I'll always ask, like, "How imperative is your inclusion and diversity strategy at your organization?" They'll say, "Oh, it's very imperative. It's super important. Blah blah blah blah," and I'm like, "Okay, cool." So then I go, you know what I'm saying, I go to the little executive page, right, and, you know, the board looks like--you know, the first, you know, seven, eight presidents like [haha sfx]. I'm like, "Come on, man. Y'all not seeing this, man? This is crazy. This looks like a bunch of dollar bills up here." Like, this is crazy.Cedric: [laughs] Exactly, but that's representation, and so that's diversity, you know, from a recruitment aspect, adding them to the mix, and then inclusion is working on the other hand, trying to make it work. And so you're trying to do both, right? It's almost like--you know, in some cases, right--I mean, I'm from the country, right? And so there's certain cases and certain things where you need to mix and you need to pour stuff in at the same time to get that evenly distributed, and that's the diversity, right, man? You pour the diversity in while you're stirring the inclusion, and you're doing it at the same time, with both hands, because you need for it to evenly get into the mix so that when you look at the cake mix and batter it's something that you can go in and move forward with, right? It's not clumped up. It's not over here. It's not--I'm not gonna say segregated or whatever the case may be, right? You know, things are mixed in together, but they still have their identity, man. So it's--you know, it's interesting.Zach: Let me go ahead and saute on that metaphor, that analogy you got right there. So it's interesting, because even when you make a cake--'cause honestly I thought you were gonna go with, like, a sweet tea analogy, but either way, with sweet tea or cake, right, you gotta make sure you add heat to that jaunt so that way it actually, like, actually comes together, because--and even though that heat might be uncomfortable or may seem uncomfortable, you've got to put on some gloves or whatever and you've got to put it in the oven. You've got to wait, but it's gonna all congeal for the cake--or you gotta turn up the dial on the stove to make sure it gets hot enough so everything can come together, so it can actually merge into one thing that you can actually consume, that you can actually enjoy. It's the same thing, man. In that mixing process, you've got to add some heat to that. That heat might be, you know, accountable conversations, you know? True planning around how we're actually gonna make all this happen, how we're gonna mobilize our inclusion strategy, what does it mean to, like, really build a culture of sponsorship for your organization, and then that creates that culture that you're talking about.Cedric: There you go, there you go. I'm with it. I'm with it. [laughs]Zach: Now, look, let me respect your time. I got one more question for you.Cedric: Go for it, man. I'm here.Zach: What recommendations would give to the average white executive/power holder who wants their organization to be more diverse but isn't getting the talent they're looking for--they're not seeing the talent, you know, at the executive level?Cedric: Oh, man. That's a loaded question. You said white executive/power holder. [both laugh] I'll say this, and I'll say this for all senior executives, not just white--and I'ma primarily speak to CEOs and chief HR officers on this one--look, if you've decided that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the success of your organization, then I think you need to take this approach. First, go out and hire you a chief diversity officer. That's step one. Step two: for the first five to seven years on this journey, that chief diversity officer needs to report directly to the CEO. Not HR, not strategy, not social responsibility or impact. Have them reporting directly to the CEO. This not only will have a visual impact, but it will solidify that just like finance, just like strategy, just like engineering, just like HR, that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the business and it has a direct line to the highest of the high. And I believe it was Steve Jobs that said this, and he said it in the context of design. It's that "If a part of your business is so important to the CEO, it must report to the CEO," because then only can that organization place the same importance on it as the CEO does, and so you're going out and you're saying, "Hey, we believe in diversity," but then the diversity officer is four layers down in the organization [train?] and doesn't have any say-so, power, or ability to go make things happen. But now when that person reports directly to the CEO, and we're talking top-down--they say, "Hey, this is the move, and this is where we're going," and that person is right there, direct communication can get things signed off, accomplished, done quick. That puts you in a better position to be able to accomplish that goal.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, it's interesting because I think that kind of transitions--that transitions that D&I space from being just, like, another thing that's, like, in the compliance piece into something that becomes, like, a strategy imperative for the enterprise, right? A lot of times when we think about diversity we're just thinking about ways to avoid, you know, this sound, right? [Law and Order sfx] You know, just trying to make sure you don't get in trouble, you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Cedric: Oh, man. And also, look--so I was in HR, right? In every organization that I supported, you got the business leader, you got the HR person, you got the finance person, you got quality, you got engineers, but they're in that organization. And so HR is in every organization. Finance is in every organization, right? And so diversity is in every organization. The same way you look at diversity of people, you should be looking at diversity of suppliers. The same way you're looking at diversity of marketing, the way you're looking at diversity and how you're looking at your strategy, where you're going--like, diversity is embedded in every one of those, and if it doesn't have that same vertical as the strategy/HR/finance organization, then how can it have the horizontal piece to where it cuts across all to be able to have that impact and show up in the every day workings and doings of how people act and how they work and how they do their jobs?Zach: No, 100%, man. You know what? You've been dropping bar-bar-bars, man. Like, just [Mario coin sfx x2]. You know what I'm saying?Cedric: [laughs] I love it, man. I love it.Zach: Man, I love it. Now, this has been a dope conversation. Before we go, do you have any shout-outs or parting words?Cedric: Oh, man. Look, I would say one, you know, shout-out to Jump Recruits, right? You can go find more information at JumpRecruits.com. Look, you know, the team, shout-out to my family and my wife, and look, I would say shout-out to all of the leaders, the employees, the janitors, whoever it may be that's out there actively pushing diversity, out there actively pushing inclusion, whether it be in your small circle and you're influencing those around you or whether it's at a large, large scale. Congrats, and I thank you, and I ask you to continue, to continue to push and continue to be--you don't have to be an activist, but you do have to be active. And so, look, continue to do great things, and I just--I love it.Zach: Wow, man. Yo, shout-out--man, round of applause, man, for Cedric, man. [applause sfx] My goodness gracious, man. This has been great, man. Thank you, and thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash, you know what I'm saying? Look, we've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate. all of 'em except livingcorporate.com, Cedric, believe it or not, 'cause Australia's still got livingcorporate.com, and I'm like, "Man." So I don't know what we gotta do--Cedric: All of that. We're coming to talk to you, Australia. We're gonna have a conversation. 20/20. We need that. We need that.Zach: We need that. We need that. Look, man, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Cedric Chambers, CEO and founder of Jump Recruits. Peace.

Zach speaks with Jennifer Brown, founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, and they take a deep dive into exploring what diversity and inclusion means. They also talk about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and Jennifer shares a bit about her latest two books. Check out Jennifer's books! They're titled "Inclusion" and "How to Be an Inclusive Leader."Connect with Jennifer on the following platforms: Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInPut your name on the mailing list at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know what we do, man. [laughs] Y'all know. Listen, man, we try to drop--come on, Sound Man. Give me them air horns right here. [air horns sfx]. More fire for your head top, and look, today is no different. I ain't even gonna get into a huge, long kind of, like, intro before I get into the interview, 'cause our interview was kind of long, but I really want y'all to hear all of it. I interviewed someone who is a strong--seriously, like, one of the leaders within the D&I space when you talk about, like, presenting content around intersectionality, diversity, inclusion. Her name is Jennifer Brown. She's a facilitator. She's a public speaker. She's a consultant. She's an educator. She has a background in change management, so there's a lot of symbiosis between the both of us, and we had a really dope discussion just about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and then we had a conversation--like, kind of a meta discussion about the D&I space as an industry. If y'all remember--this was, like, way back in Season 1--we had Amy C. Waninger, and then we had Drew, A.K.A. Very White Guy, on the show, and Drew talked a little bit about the--, like, D&I as a business, right, and kind of, like, the capitalistic or corporate nature of D&I and, like, what that looks like, and we had a conversation about that too. It was really interesting. So anyway, what you're gonna hear next is the discussion between Jennifer Brown and myself. She's great people, definitely can't wait to have her back on the show. Make sure y'all check out the show notes. You can look and see all of her information, including her latest two books, okay? So make sure y'all check it out, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.[pause]Zach: Jennifer, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Jennifer: Oh, thanks. I'm doing great. Trying to stay cool in this July.Zach: Man, it is hot out here.Jennifer: Yeah. Global warming. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] For real. Look, I gave a brief intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Jennifer: Of course, yeah. I--let's see. I'm an author. I'm a keynoter. I'm a CEO and an owner of a consulting business, all of which is focused on building more inclusive workplaces for all kinds of talent to thrive, and it's a passionate, personal mission that I have because I've been out since I was 22, and I'm in my 40s now, but the workplace was a place where I couldn't really bring my full self to work. And I want to say it wasn't just being LGBTQ. I mean, the workplace has all sorts of inclusiveness problems when it comes to people like, you know, us, and, you know, most people actually. Anyone that's not a certain mold, and so as somebody who has--I have a master's degree in opera, believe it or not. I came to New York to be an opera singer, and that did not work out.Zach: Wow.Jennifer: Yeah, I know. [laughs] It's crazy. Luckily I reinvented as a corporate trainer, because it's all this--it's like being on the stage, you know, and connecting with audiences. It's just the topic is different. So I reinvented into that field, which remains really my field to this day. So we're really--we're a strategy and training company, and we're working across the Fortune 1,000, I would say, on a daily basis. My team is all over the country. They're amazing. They're so talented at what they do. They have a lot more patience for client work than I do. [laughs] And yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but I've been a consultant in the trenches for a long time, and I'm actually really thrilled now to kind of be more living the keynote and author life. I just--I like it a lot. I love performing. I love big audiences. I like the challenge of thinking on my feet. I like having to write books on this topic and figure out, like, "What does the world need me to write next, and how do I take what I hear and learn and put it in a way that's digestible for people?" Because it's really--it's kind of, like, a life-or-death situation from an inclusion perspective, and I deeply feel that, for myself and many, many others.Zach: Wow. Well, thank you for that. Awesome. I'm already--like, my shoulders are kind of bouncing up and down. This is gonna be a dope conversation.Jennifer: Woo! Yeah. [both laugh]Zach: So today we're talking about inclusive leadership, and before we get too deep into it, can we get some definitions on these terms? Like, from your point of view. Diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. 'Cause in a lot--in your content and in your IP, both written and your presentations, like, you use these terms a lot, and frankly your content is centered around these terms. For our audience, I'd love it if we could just, like, level-set what these things actually mean.Jennifer: Yes, and you need to consider the history of the conversation. So in the corporate and workplace context, diversity is really--has been traditionally the "who," right? The demographics, the representation in your workforce. Typically it's [counted with?] gender, right? Which is where it started, and race and ethnicity. It wants to count LGBTQ and people with disabilities, but, you know, a lot of those folks can hide who they are, right? We are very good at hiding who we are and not checking boxes. So diversity has really been that representation, the mix, the complexion of the workplace [with a small C?]. And then inclusion really is the "how." So "How do I make that mix work?" You know? "If diversity is the "who" in the mix, how do I make the mix work?" To quote my friend Tyrone Studemeyer, who is, like, a great chief diversity officer. He always uses that example. In fact, he brings a glass of milk on stage and pours in chocolate sauce, and then he stirs it, and he has this bit that he does. So it's making the mix work, and honestly's that's really where behaviors come into play. And so it's how--once you have that talent around the table, how do you make them want to stay? How do you include them, and how do you make them feel that they're valued? And so inclusion is the how and the behaviors. And then intersectionality, something totally different. It is the mix, I guess, of diverse identities that make some of us who we are and kind of present unique challenges. Traditionally defined by Kimberle Crenshaw, of course, it's the mix of multiple stigmatized identities that one person may carry. So why that's important is that I think, you know, anyone who looks at gender issues, for example, as a white women's topic, is not taking into consideration how women of color are impacted differently, how being an LGBTQ woman may mean that you're not only dealing with your gender and all the headwinds that come along with that, but you're dealing with the headwinds relating to sexual orientation. Or say you have, you know, a non-binary gender expression, or you are a woman of color and some of those things at the same time, or a woman with a disability. So it just goes on and on, and that's a very helpful thing for the rest of the world, I think, to help people understand the levels of--and I would use privilege with a small P. I know that word sets some people off, you know, but I think we have to be realistic about some of us walking through the world feeling a lot safer and a lot more protected, a lot more supported. You know, right? Like, a lot more--that others are more comfortable with us because they're relatively more familiar with us, and the sort of further you get away from I guess the straight white male norm that is, like it or not, the whole of the top leadership in the business world. The further you get from that, I think the more difficulty you have in kind of seeing yourself in workplaces, in being supported, grown, invested in, welcomed, proactively fostered. You know, all of the things that really, like, pull you up in an organization. So, you know, when you're different in multiple ways, it's kind of difficult to ever feel that you're in that--in the place you should be in the machine that is the workplace. So, you know, this is where people fall out. They quit. They can't stand it anymore. [laughs] You know, they go and become entrepreneurs, which is great, you know, but sad for corporations and large employers because, of course, you know, you're bleeding out all of your diverse talent because your culture is sort of something that people can't stand. That's a problem. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] No, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting, right, because I was just having a conversation with a couple of close friends this morning, and I was talking about the fact that a lot of times, you know, when we talk about D&I in the most common contexts, it almost feels like some--like, really a competition between white men and [white women] for number one, and then kind of everybody else falls to the wayside. Right? Like, we don't necessarily have, like--I don't know if I'm necessarily always hearing, like, truly intersectional discussions around identity. I don't know, and I don't know if black women are often centered in those discussions. Of course in the past couple years we've seen, like, more and more content come out about it, so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but at the same time--Jennifer: [laughs] But you're right.Zach: [laughs] I mean, here's a great example, right? So I think it was--yep, Indeed. So Indeed just dropped a commercial, and there was a--the setting was, like, a board room, right, and in the board room, a white man was in the front and he was getting a promotion, right? And, like, the boss was shaking his hand, and everybody was clapping, and then there was a white woman, and she was just kind of standing there, and it was clearly--like, by the framing, right, of the commercial, that she was passed over for this promotion and that the white man got the promotion over her, right? And I was like, "Okay." And so then she looks down at her phone, and she kind of smirks because she gets a notification she's getting an interview, you know, somewhere else, right?Jennifer: [laughs] Oh, my gosh.Zach: Right? So she's like, "I'm leaving," and then it said, "Indeed." You know? I was like, "Okay, cool." So great commercial, but what's interesting about that commercial was behind the white woman--and I don't believe they did this intentionally, but maybe they did--and if they did, yo, they are super cold--but there was a black woman and a black man out of focus right behind them. And so it was, like, super interesting.Jennifer: [sighs] Oh, goodness. Wow. Oh, somebody needs to give that feedback. I'm sure they've heard about it already. [both laugh]Zach: But, like, the idea that a lot of times we talk about D&I, right, it's often centered around gender. We're not having really authentic discussions outside of that. And so a question for you - you know, in your book "Inclusion: Diversity, the New Workplace & the Will to Change," you discussed the nuances of privilege. And you just talked about lower-case privilege, lower-case P privilege. And to make an effort not to vilify white men who have, quote, "seemingly won the privilege lottery." Is it possible to manage the egos of leaders who are in the majority while also having frank and accountable discussions about empowering black and brown professionals or just non-white professionals in the workplace? You know, in your work, what does that process look like? To establish trust for those discussions.Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, that is really the work, and it's--I think it's, like, the third rail, honestly. It's funny - being in the LGBTQ community, there's a level of--strangely, a level of comfort and acceptance of talking about being "I'm a proud ally," you know, or putting that rainbow sticker on your desk or in your email signature. And it's fascinating to me because--by the way, the LGBTQ conversation is also not properly intersectional, right? So there's privileged dynamics playing out in my--this community. I was going to say "my" community. One of my communities, you know, that women's voices aren't well-heard. People of color and the LGBTQ community, trans people, are not well-heard and are not represented in leadership positions in the workplace when it comes to affinity groups and things. So each community has its kind of diversity within its diversity challenges. [laughs] So I just wanted to make that point, because--I often say, "Just because you carry a marginalized identity, or even two, does not make you an inclusive leader."Zach: That's so true.Jennifer: Like, I wish it were true, but it's not, and it's been proven to me over and over again that, you know, I've made that assumption, and I've kind of been wrong. Like, I've been shocked by what people say. So, like, these--like, a lack of that intersectional lens and that inclusive lens can live in all of us, by the way. Elitism and, you know, that blindness and bias. Unchecked. Anyway, that's one point I wanted to make. So how do we center more black and brown voices when the leadership of so many companies--and when you say they are the majority, we always have to clarify. I say majority in leadership positions, because if you look at the aggregate in most companies, of course, women are the majority. Zach: That's absolutely correct, yeah.Jennifer: Right, and then a lot of ethnic diversity lives in different functional areas of the business and, you know, whatever, right? But it just totally thins out, like, when you go up the org chart, right? So the problem is all the power lies with a sort of very homogeneous group, and so the onus is on that group to acknowledge that the world is more and more black and brown, right? That they have to build that confidence and cross those bridges of understanding, and they have to know how to build trust with their workforce. Both current and future, by the way, which is most likely not going to look like them. And then they've got to do it in such a way that they--that then their employee and their leadership base looks like the world that they serve, which is increasingly female, right? Think about the buying decisions. Think about the exploding buying power of the black community. The LGBTQ community is now a trillion-dollar buying power. I mean, it's massive. So any brand that's worth anything, and any leader that's worth anything, must look at this, should look at this, and say, you know, "My demographic group--maybe it was okay for me not to understand what keeps people in the organization I'm a part of or keeps people on my team or how to be a good colleague and sort of step out of my shoes and think about what the other person's experience is like, but I better search and pay attention to this." So my argument is always I throw the business case to people, the demographic argument to people. Sometimes it's a moral argument. Sometimes somebody, you know, has kids of a different race than they are. Sometimes they have lots of daughters. Like, sometimes, you know, they have a unique view on all of this, and so when you, you know, [see?] somebody that looks like a white, straight guy, you know, you just never know what their diversity story might be, and I've been just shocked and reminded that, you know, I can--I can walk in a room and people assume I know nothing about this topic, you know? And that's happened to me. I've been on the receiving end of that. And there are things I don't know, for sure, but I desperately want people to listen to me and somehow kind of wedge my way in and make them listen and convince them and all of those things. So being LGBTQ helps with that. So I'm this interesting hybrid of, you know, being of an identity that people are more comfortable with, like, based on maybe what they see, but then coming out and challenging them to the point where, like, you can hear a pin drop when I do that, and that's kind of--let me tell you, it's pretty uncomfortable when you're standing there in front of, like, 1,000 mostly men in, like, light blue shirts and khakis. You're like, "How is this gonna go?" [laughs] So it takes--for all of us, you know, I think it takes bravery to show ourselves. For some of us with invisible aspects of diversity, it takes kind of a unique kind of bravery to be like, "No." Like, "Make no mistake, this is actually who I am." And particularly if it's a vulnerable aspect of who you are. It can feel really risky. That could include, like, divulging about a disability or, you know, mental health and addiction issues, or age, you know? There's just this, like, widespread hesitation to bring our full selves to work on so many counts, but when you are black and brown of course the issue can be "I can't opt not to show who I am." Like, "Who I am is often visible," and it will trigger the biases if those are there, right? And so it's a conversation we always have about--it's not the pain Olympics, and that's so important to remember. Like, that it's not--it's not a race to the--through the oppression hierarchy to say--Zach: Right.Jennifer: Right? Because that's a useless conversation. I think we have to think about, like, what are the--what's the damage that happens when, you know, we feel shame, or we feel compelled to downplay who we are, even if it's very visible to others? And how can we support each other's voices and create that safety for each other? And that's what I think about every day. Like, if I have been given some kind of privilege with a small P [in] several ways that has been totally unearned by me--my obsession is, like, what responsibility and opportunity does that come with? Which is interesting, because I'm in the LGBTQ community, which is so used to needing that allyship, right? We think about--we struggle to bring our full selves and be comfortable, and we hide, you know? And so allies really bring us out, you know? They stand alongside us and say, "Hey, I'll tell your story. I'll be next to you. I'll have your back." It feels amazing to have that, and I know what that feeling feels like, and so I am turning around and, like, trying to do that for others with my people, which often is my lovely, often good-hearted, you know, white, straight male executive clients, you know, to say, "How can we help you bridge to the future?" Because opting out is not--that's not an option, you know? I think--and the more clued-in ones know this, and I think people are mostly feeling just, like, really--like, wanting to do more, very awkward, very afraid. I know in the light of MeToo, just purely a gender conversation, the--you know, that lean-in research that came out a couple months ago that says that, like, male leaders are, like, even more afraid now to be in these one-on-one scenarios with female mentees or colleagues, and it's really discouraging, and it's definitely going in the wrong direction, but I think that fear is probably bigger than just cross-gender. I think that it's just kind of any moves you might make to say, "Hey, I want to be an inclusive leader. I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna say the right thing. I really, really want to be better, but how am I gonna learn this thing that I'm gonna get wrong, and where am I gonna learn it? And how am I gonna know that I'm getting it wrong? And then how am I going to be given a chance to develop better skills?" And that's a very legitimate question. So I think we've got to all kind of give each other a lot of berth and also proactive support these days to learn, and we've got to do that in partnership with each other, because otherwise we're learning in a vacuum, and that's hard to do.Zach: It's so complex though, right? Because it's like--like, there has to be space for grace, and then there also has to--like, on both sides, because there's grace for you to learn--there's grace for me to give you space to learn, but then there's also--there has to be humility for you to receive that learning, right? And then there needs to be empathy on the person who is learning for their teacher in that there is a level of emotional labor, right, that goes into me even talking to you about this at all, right? I had a conversation with some colleagues, like, about a month or so ago, and I was like, "Look." Like, something happened, and, you know, it was an educational discussion, and in part of my conversation I said, "Hey, you know, I don't talk about this because it's exhausting." I said, "But being in these majority-white spaces--just me being here is exhausting," and I explained that to them, and I said, "It's not just me. It's exhausting in some way or form or shape for someone in a minority to engage in majority spaces." Like, it is, and so, like, for the people that are doing the work to educate and train and teach or even partner--like, that's--like, there needs to be some empathy on that part, you know what I mean?Jennifer: Yeah. Well, we talk a lot about compassion fatigue, and I think that--and then us being asked to step forward and represent an entire community and their experience, which you and I know is never gonna be accurate. You're just one person talking about your experience. Zach: Right. Not [?], right.Jennifer: Right, but what you're talking about is something--what I say in my next book, right, "How to Be an Inclusive Leader," is that you need to do 80% of the emotional labor yourself before you ask someone to help you on your journey. Zach: Oh, I love that.Jennifer: It's so important, yes. And so for me, what that looks like is I intentionally consume certain media, for example. I listen to certain podcasts. I watch certain films. I acquaint myself with cultural norms across communities that are not mine, right? And in some cases it's a struggle through some of that media, because that media is not built for you. It's not a conversation for you, right? [both laugh] And I've had white friends, and I talk about, like, a podcast we may love. Like, one I love called "Still Processing." I don't know if you know it.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. "Still Processing" is fire. Shout-out to y'all, yes.Jennifer: Oh, it's so good. So good. And they're queer too. Like, I just love them. I mean, talk about intersectional. They're brilliant. And anyway, I sometimes have a hard time keeping up with it, but also getting all of the cultural references--and sometimes even I will feel, "Gosh, I'm such an outsider, and this is so uncomfortable for me, to try to hang in with the conversation." And then I say to myself--and this is what I say to leaders--"Notice the discomfort, because this is what other people feel every single day in majority-white spaces." Every day of their lives, right? Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, you're uncomfortable for one second, right? Like, get used to it. Like, you should be putting yourself in this discomfort all of the time, because this is the competency. Like, this is the skill that you need to learn so that you get some iota of empathy for what it feels like every single day for other people. The other thing I wanted to say is we just had an LGBTQ--we called it LBTQ. It was just for women actually, so we dropped the G. [laughs] Which was--you know, people can have issues with it, but we dropped the G. It was just meant for Q-identified women. And we had this big conference, and we asked--we had a TON of diversity on the stage, which was my commitment, and we had a couple activists that were trans women of color, and they said, "I will come, but I want you to know, like, Pride is exhausting for me." It was in June. "It's exhausting for me. It's exhausting for me to walk into corporate spaces, to educate, to be that voice on stage, and I'm sort of doing this, but I want you to know it's, like, a lot of labor for me," and I want I guess for all of us that put panels together, for all of us that are speakers and on panels--it was such a learning for me to understand that when you ask someone, you're trying to be inclusive, but it is so seen through this lens of "Oh, I can take the day and go speak at this conference 'cause I work for myself," or, you know, "I'm an activist or an advocate." Like, an activist doesn't always look the same or have the same level of privilege or income. What is the lost income from taking a day out to go into a space you're not comfortable in and educate people about your experience? Like, it was really humbling. And what we ended up doing, by the way--and this may be helpful advice--is for all the speakers, that day we had 30 speakers, we really want to intend that we take up--we have a stipend and honorarium for people who take the time out to come into that space. There's a question of real money, you know, to offset that time and that labor. And again, this was another kind of learning for a lot of privileged people of the privilege that allows them to come in and speak all of the time on things that have a full-time job, you know, that have benefits, you know, that aren't witnessing, you know, the really, really painful reality of certain parts of our community every day. I just thought it was a really interesting demonstration within a marginalized community of sort of the gulf in our experiences, right, even within LBTQ women. So I think being mindful of intersectionality all of the time, it's incumbent--it's incumbent on anybody who has that platform, that voice, that comfort to whatever degree, to ensure spaces are diverse, to ensure voices are elevated, to center stories that aren't our own, and to make sure that those stories are given the proper platform and that people aren't overly requested to give up their time and education. But that means that each white person, each man, you know, when they support gender equality, I would ask, like, "What are you reading? What research do you have under your belt?" Like, "How are you exercising your muscle to show up in allyship, and what are you doing?" And then, and only then, can you ask for tweaks and feedback from people in affected communities. You know, "Did what I say resonate?" "Did the story--did I do this justice?" "Did I use my voice in the right way?" "What more could I have done?" Like, "What feedback would you have for me?" That can be asked, but so much has to be done and earned before that. And then--you know, and then bring somebody in to give you that feedback and make you better, because, you know, without that feedback I can promise you people aren't gonna get better, and they're just gonna keep stumbling, and stumbling is not good for anyone. [laughs] It's humiliating.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. [laughs] The thing about it is there's nothing--so I think the only thing worse than being loud and wrong is being really polished and wrong, right?Jennifer: Ooh, that's interesting.Zach: Right? It's like, you know, you're talking, you got the presentation, and, you know, you got your little clicker, and you got your three points and your--[both laugh] And your pantsuit looks great, but you are wrong.Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. It's in the corporate speak.Zach: Right, it's in the corporate speak, but--Jennifer: People can see through it.Zach: But you're absolutely wrong. And your earlier point about Pride, yeah, and, like, this past year was so big because it was the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, and it's interesting 'cause you talked about--you were talking just a bit about, like, the dissonance there and, like, the emotional labor for everyone who is a minority, but then specifically we're talking about trans activists, and it was so interesting because--I believe it was on the 30th. Like, right at the end of Pride there was a situation at Stonewall Inn where, you know, there was a desire from a trans women to speak up. She wanted to talk a little bit about the day and just reflect, and she was shouted down.Jennifer: No.Zach: Yeah, by gay men who were there in names of, "Hey, we just want to party. We don't want to hear all of that," and then eventually she was able to speak, and she spoke for about 12 minutes, but it was just really interesting. She read the names of the black trans women who died and facts and the disproportionate abuse and oppression that black trans women have and continue to face, and so you're absolutely right. Like, and I think it's incredible. I have yet to have the privilege to directly interview a black trans activist. Like, that's actually a serious [goal] of mine.Jennifer: I can hook you up.Zach: Well, let's do it. Let's talk about that after the interview. For sure.Jennifer: [laughs] Yeah, for sure. So yeah, it's been such a learning for me. And this is why I feel so--the ally energy in me these days, even in the LGBTQ community technically that I'm in, I feel so activated as an--and I don't even want to say, like, "I am an ally," because we're only allies when others give us that--give us that name and that honor, right? But I'll tell you, whether it's me as a cis woman--you know, I spend my time on the keynote stage asking people in the audience, "How many of you know what I mean by sharing our pronouns and why it's important? And how many of you know what cisgender means?" And sharing my identity and coming out as cisgender so that--and sharing my pronouns so that I'm not acting like heterosexuality and cisgenderness is normal, you know? We have to make it visible in order to even point out to people that this--we shouldn't be assuming this is normal, and you shouldn't be walking around every day assuming everybody shares your identity. Like, and we've that. I mean, so many of us have been so comfortable and--you know, I'll share it. You know this statistic probably, but it's so startling that 1 out of every 5 people under 34 is non-cis and non-straight. So 1 out of 5. So as you walk around your life, as you hire people, as you work with teams, as you meet customers, 1 out of 5, and yet the chances are that they're hiding that from you and they're not comfortable for you. So what can you do to say, "Hey, this is a safe place. I am someone that you can bring your whole self to me, around me, and I will see you, and I will be not only just open to it, but I will be embracing of it, and I won't assume that you're like me." You know, "I will give you the chance to self-identify," and I will self-identify. I will be brave in doing that, because, like, I'm not gonna put all the burden on you to talk about your experience, but I'm not gonna remain silent and not talk about mine." It's funny, because I get a lot of questions afterwards. People come up to me and say, "How do I start that conversation with someone?" To say, "Hey, I'm doing my work. I'm trying to learn. I want you to feel comfortable. What would you like me to know?" And we sort of walk through, like, "How do I even start that conversation?" Because people are really--they just don't know how to begin, and they don't know whether it will come across as authentic, and they're worried they're gonna be out of their depth really fast. [laughs] Which, by the way, they will be. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] You're absolutely right, but I think it's the internal getting yourself comfortable with being uncomfortable and being comfortable with being ignorant, and ignorant truly meaning just not knowing, and seeking to learn, right? Like, MLK Jr. talked about this. Like, he was quoted saying something like, "White people, as part of their superiority, think that they have so very little to learn when it comes to--" Like, just race, matters of race, and I think that can be extended and expanded, right? That if you're a part of a majority, a part of a privileged class, it's easy for you to think that you just--you don't need to learn, but being curious, right, and seeking to understand is, like, one of the greatest signs of humility, and really it's endearing. Like, the right people, in my experience--when I come to people and I say, "Hey, I really just want to understand. I want to learn from you. I genuinely want to learn." Those discussions go well, because they--Jennifer: They do.Zach: Right? They go well, because you're humbling yourself to listen and to receive. You talked about the statistics, about 1 in 5 today, [and] I think that really leads me well into the next question. So a good deal of your book discusses the future of work and the role inclusion will play. What are your predictions on how organizations will need to adapt to attract future diverse talent in the next 10 years?Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. Well, they're all, like, woefully behind already and have been. [laughs] It's like the ostrich with its head in the sand. I think, you know, when business is good and the economy is good, it covers--it's like high tide, you know? It covers up a lot of things that low tide reveals. And I think a lot of people are too comfortable. You know, I just think that business leaders in particular--and to your point that you just made, right? If life is working out for me, like economically I'm comfortable, I'm not afraid of, you know, being pulled over, you know, as I'm driving. I'm not afraid for my child in the world. You know, all of those things that are blind spots for some people. You can kind of sail on through life and through your work in being a leader, believe it or not, and not really be held accountable for a lot of these things. People deny that it's an urgent situation, but I see it as a really urgent situation, that the fact that, you know, the number of women and people of color at certain levels in companies--which I'm kind of obsessed with the mid-level, because the mid-level is where people--they're really tired of hanging on, like, white-knuckling it up the pipeline, trying to, you know, get supported, get promoted, get--you know, have somebody take an interest in them, have somebody run interference for them. You know, when you're undermentored and undersupported, and then you're underrepresented as well, and you look around, and you look up, and you don't see anyone that--you know, we say "you've got to see it to be it." You know, you get tired, and it's no wonder to me that the numbers and the representation of anyone who's not a straight white male have been kind of really flatlined, you know? And even the best and most progressive companies are really struggling to hold onto people, to raise them up to the level where I want to see them, right? Which is the executive level, because then they can make all--a whole world of difference, you know? An executive leader can, with one signature, you know, create a policy or address the pay gap, you know? They have so much power. Or hold a customer accountable, or take a stance on a political issue in social media. And so if people can't make up there, and we decide to bail out because it just proves too arduous and we're just, like, physically tired, and we're emotionally tired, and the compassion and fatigue and the emotional labor and all of it, being the spokesperson for an entire community. It becomes too much, and, you know, then we leave and we create our own businesses, which is a great solution, which was, you know, the thing I did. [both laugh] You know, 'cause I was like, "This is not gonna work for me." But that's a loss, because not everybody is set up to be an entrepreneur. You know, you need a lot of capital. You need--we talked about privilege. You know, you need certain things in place in order to make that work, and it's just not tenable for most people. So workplaces have to work for people, for all of us. So the future of work, you know, I get asked a lot about quotas and targets. I personally--I hesitate to say this, like, super publicly because companies are really twitchy about requirements and quotas, and you get a lot of pushback, but I'm honestly--I'm at a point where I feel like if people are left to their own devices change doesn't happen, and if change does happen it's slow and it's not widespread, and it's too slow to make a meaningful difference in the short amount of time we have to really see change.Zach: Absolutely.Jennifer: I mean, I think the house is on fire. [laughs] You know, I think economically people are falling behind. They're not getting promoted. They're therefore missing out on economic growth and opportunity and wealth, and, you know, I'm just not seeing it, when the world is changing so fast and companies are not keeping up with it. And so is the bottom line impacted? Is ROI measured? You know, we really--we have to have, like, an honest conversation about losing customers and clients and people leaving the organization, and companies have to wake up and say, you know, "If we don't do something really serious about this, we're gonna be sitting in the same exact place in 10 years." So, you know, I'm all for the more radical solutions. You know, I think--honestly, I think slates, interview slates, need to have a required number of women on them and a required number of people with diverse ethnicities. LGBTQ is tough because we don't disclose. So the companies I work with struggle with something called self-identification. We don't trust our companies--and this just speaks volumes--we don't trust our companies enough to check a box about who we really are, so we can't be counted. [laughs] So we--so, you know, there has to be, like, faith that we exist in organizations upwards of maybe 10% of the population, because we're only--on paper, we're only recorded at, like, 1%.Zach: Yeah, and that's just not accurate, right?Jennifer: No, it's not accurate, but we're doing that because we're terrified, you know? We're terrified of losing our job. We're just--even in the best companies. And that's true for people with disabilities too, but I think [some] companies have to [?], and I think they're gonna get pushed back. If they roll things out like this, they're gonna get a lot of pushback. People are gonna say, "I don't want to be forced to--" You know, "I believe in a meritocracy, and I want to hire the best person for the job, and you can't force me to hire a candidate that's less than," and my answer to that is if you did a good job of having enough of a pipeline of all kinds of talent, it wouldn't just be one candidate you're looking at and you're feeling like somebody, you know, is forcing you, holding your feet to the fire to hire them. You would have lots of choices. And so we've got to do a better job of filling that pipeline, keeping people in the pipeline, not letting them leave, and investing in them so that they feel they can thrive at a company long-term instead of wanting to bail out because they can't stand it out anymore, you know? That's just a sad commentary on workplace culture, but unfortunately I think it's the experience of tons of people that I talk to.Zach: The thing about it is the challenge with it is like--your earlier point around change, like, not--you know, that if left to its own devices will happen so incrementally, so small, that it won't be--it won't have--Jennifer: So slowly. It won't be meaningful. It won't even be big enough, yeah.Zach: And I think when you look at American history and you look at the history of civil rights in this country, it's really--I don't know if we have, like, a tangible example of truly radical sustained change from a culture perspective in this country. I think when you look across--especially when you look at, like, this current presidency, it's actually forced a lot of people to really, like, look at the history of race relations in America, especially if you want to examine, like, the past 55, 60 years, and you look at--and if you look at, like, the economic positioning of blacks today versus blacks in 1967, you know, you don't see the needle moving much at all. In fact, in a lot of areas you see the needle moving down. So it's interesting, so I 100% agree with you that there needs to be some genuinely radical--I'm gonna use the word again, radical--change in thought in terms of just what it's gonna look like, because--and we talked about this in another interview too. We talked about the future of work and we talked about the future of learning and education. You know, as the economy shifts and changes and more and more folks are not going to school, because school is going to continue to get more expensive and--like, all of that, it's gonna create a completely new environment that I don't know if we're really taking the time to really examine and consider. Jennifer: I know. We're still having the conversation with managers to say, "Hey, don't hire from the school you went to. That's bias." Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: You know, literally that's where we are. But you're talking about, like, the 3.0, which is literally that people are not gonna have these traditional college degrees or any degree. They'll go to trade school or whatever it is. Like, they're gonna have completely non-traditional backgrounds. They will have been, you know, previously incarcerated. They will be, you know, of different statuses, and we have to figure out--like, workplaces need all the talent they can get, and yet they're completely behind in terms of how they seek that talent, where they look. People, like, throw their hands up so too easily, you know? They just say, "Oh, we just couldn't find anyone." [laughs] You know, it's just, like, endless, the stories I hear. And I don't know. It's laziness. It's--I don't even know. I mean, it depends on the day, like, how cynical I am about it all, but I don't know. [laughs] I just am like, "Really?" Like, if you really wanted to find people, they're there, and I--believe me, 'cause I'm on Twitter, and, like, Black Twitter is on fire. Like, you know, the number of angel investment groups, the number of VCs, the number of start-ups, the number of black girls who code. Like, there's such a great community to recruit from, and I just--I wonder, like, what is it--what is it that people aren't doing or won't do? Like, what is the hold up?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. You know what, Jennifer? I'ma say this. Hold on. You know what? You're a real one. I appreciate you. That's a really good call-out, 'cause you're absolutely right. Like, Black Twitter is poppin,', and, like, there's so much--there are so many pools, right, of talent for you to engage in. There's Black Code Collective, like, in D.C. Like, there's all types of stuff. Like, there are people--and, like, to your point around, like, how people are learning today, there are people who went to culinary school and then, like, are now learning how to code, and, like, they're good at it, right? There are communities now that will welcome you in for free. You will--you can learn, and you can genuinely understand and learn how to code. And so there's plenty of opportunity to deepen your pipeline, so yeah, that's a really good point. There are things that people either aren't doing or are choosing not to do, but the talent is definitely out there. You know, you talked about cynicism. I think that really leads to my next question. Like, can we take a step back and just talk about, like, D&I, or I&D, as an industry, right? Jennifer: Oh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Jennifer: Speaking of cynicism, I think I know where you're going with this. I'm ready to go there with you too, so I think I know. [both laugh]Zach: So there's a growing sentiment, right, that the largest voices who are advocating for diversity and inclusion in highly-visible or corporate/corporatized spaces are themselves members of the majority and, by relation, have some inherent blind spots within the subject matter that they espouse expertise in. Do you find any merit to that concern? And, like, what have you done to challenge your own blind spots? You spoke to this a little bit earlier, but I'd love for you to expound on that and if you have any other advice you would give to others.Jennifer: Hm, that is such an interesting observation. It's funny, because I could make the counter-argument that I think we're in a time--like, you ask any white diversity leader right now, and their credibility is questioned on a daily basis to be in the role they're in. Like, that is the truth. In fact, they get, like, threats.Zach: Really?Jennifer: Yeah. I've seen some people get some serious heat just for having the audacity of even having the position or accepting the position.Zach: Oh, wow.Jennifer: Yeah. So there's many stories, right, on all sides of this issue, and like I said, I think--I don't know if I said it earlier, but when you're a marginalized community, it also doesn't mean that you're a great leader on inclusion necessarily. Zach: That's true, yeah.Jennifer: Because I've seen plenty of--you know, like, we were talking about white gay men at Stonewall who were--you know, can be, like, very misogynistic, very racist, very--and so, you know, that can carry forward into a diversity leader role, but that doesn't mean that all of them are totally, you know, not effective practitioners, and it also doesn't mean because you're a person of color that you're an effective practitioner, right?Zach: That's right.Jennifer: So to me--and you respect this--it's a skill set, you know? It is a skill set, but it is also your identity, right? And it's how you deal with your identity in the world, and it's how you integrate those two things that makes you an effective voice. But also you've got to be an incredibly savvy change agent to have these roles. I mean, they're very difficult roles. They're some of the most complex roles that exist, I think, in business, because it's part influencing, it's part executive, you know, believability, credibility. It's passion. It's change agility. It is storytelling, right, and being, like--but incredibly data-oriented and, you know, convincing, and knowing the business so that you can make the business case, right? So you need to know the business you're in in order to make the argument for D&I, and you've got to be able to do all of those things. And by the way, you're probably part of a marginalized community, and you're dealing with all of the biases personally, like, that you're getting, at the same time as you're leading an entire institution, like, through this morass, you know? Through these really difficult, tense, and, you know, complex times. So it's really, like, one of the toughest roles, and I have so much respect--I worry about our practicioner community, both on the consulting side but really our internal--my internal clients, 'cause they're just--they're holding up, you know, this planet, you know, these giant organizations. Anyway, but to answer your question [of] "Who's allowed and who has permission to do this work?" It's a very good question. I mean, I've even questioned--you know, 'cause somebody hasn't dug into who I am and has judged me just based on what I look like, and that's okay. I mean, I would say, you know, it hurts me, but whatever. Like, that doesn't matter. It's most important, I think, for us not to judge each other, I think for us to look at the skill set objectively, but I do think the optics of people in these roles are important. You have to be, like, a really amazing, humble leader. Like, you have to be--you have to be really deep in the work, I think, to take on that role as a majority identity. If you're a--say you're a white guy. I don't know a lot of white straight guys in these roles. I do know white gay guys, and they--every day their privilege is pointed out to them. Every day. Nobody lets them forget, you know, that they are--that they have an enormous responsibility in that role and that, like, they have a lot of work to do. And if you talk to any of them--and I know some of my clients are of that identity, and it's a tough lift for them. I know some straight white women, and again, they are pretty enlightened people, and they're very humble, and they're very, like--they've been studying this for a long time. Some of them have sort of really personal relationships. I know a lot of gay white women actually in these roles, and they--and sometimes I know gay women of color in these roles, and they're amazing. I mean, amazing amazing. Like, and the intersectionality they can bring to it is deep, and I find--not to say, you know, certain combinations of identities are, like, more important, but to be able to speak to so many different identities in your workforce in a direct way, you know, there's kind of--that's a wonderful shortcut, to be able to do that and on top of that be, like, somebody who's, like, been in HR for 20 years, you know, and is super savvy about playing the politics and all of the other things you need for the role, but I would like to think that we can all--we all have a role to play, and some companies are more embracing of--I will tell you some inside baseball. Sometimes I get asked to send, you know, a white man to a consulting engagement, and--that is true, you know, and talk to anyone in the work that I do, and they'll tell you that's [?]. And we will push back. We will say, you know, "We're not sure that's the right answer," and "Let's talk about it," and, you know, sometimes strangely it is the right answer for certain groups who have been really, really recalcitrant and resistant, and the messenger matters sometimes more than the message. Like, certain people can be heard in certain ways, and we know this is true. So we--that's why we have such tremendous diversity on our consulting team, because we just--we have to get creative sometimes and make sure that we build a pairing, for example, that's gonna be in front of a room that maybe the client is really, really struggling to be heard in front of this business unit or this team or this, you know, office in a certain region in the country, and we'll need to switch it out. You know, we'll need to put a different voice in front of people to see, you know, and sadly the messenger is something that needs to be considered. And I wouldn't let it rest, and I wouldn't not challenge it, but I do think we--we've got to use every change tool in our arsenal, particularly with those who are really resistant and really stuck and I think experiencing a lot of bias per the messenger that they're hearing the message from. And it's funny. You know, I have to be really careful. I can't be the angry--I have to be careful to not be the angry woman and the angry gay person, and I can't imagine what it would be like delivering that truthful message that I do and also being a person of color, right? I'm very aware that I have a lot more latitude for my quote-unquote passion to come through, right, and to be--and not to have it seen as being threatening, you know? Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, your point around, like, changing up the messenger and mixing it up, it's really interesting because in the work that I have done, I have a similar strategy--and it's interesting, because I do that without even being asked. Like, I'll just be like, "Look, I know that for this I just need to have a really approachable white face to deliver this message," and they're partners for me in that. And honestly, Jennifer, I do that even just at work. Like, if I have a big meeting--Jennifer: Of course. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] If I have a big meeting or, like, you know, there's just something going on and it's like, "Okay, I really want to share this thing, but I know that if I say it, then it's gonna get an eye roll or it's not gonna be heard, so let me go ahead and mobilize this white woman or this white guy."Jennifer: Your allies.Zach: Yes, and then I'll have them say it, or I will let them know that I'm about to say it. Jennifer: I wish that weren't true.Zach: Say that again?Jennifer: I just wish it weren't true, like, that you have to do that, and to me that's, like, the extra tax that we pay. You know, that's extra labor. You have to literally not only have the brilliant idea, but you have to, like, strategize about who is, like, sitting next to you or, you know, backing you up when you have a brilliant idea, or who's gonna echo your--you know, women deal with this, and we all know this is, like, a fact of life. But I appreciate what you're bringing up, that it's a universal experience for so many of us, and it's just--if we look at it on the bright side--let's, like, look at it as a glass half-full, which I always do. [laughs] You know, I think this all makes us really savvy, like, very emotionally intelligent, right? Because as limited as our audience might be in terms of seeing us, doesn't this make us--it sort of sharpens our saw. I mean, I think when you have to think about "How am I gonna get this group over the finish line?" Like, how am I going to get them to listen to me, to believe in what I say and to give me the credibility when I'm walking in the room and I know what they're thinking about me?" You know, "How am I gonna do that?" And to me it's, like, a--you know, it's a brain twister, but it makes you be very creative. And by the way, I hope in enlisting those allies that they know why they're being enlisted and that it really raises their awareness [of] the permutations that so many of us go through in the workplace to be heard. You know, that's--I hope that they're noticing that. Like, that's a really important learning, to be approached by someone--to say, "Hey, would you have my [back?] in this meeting? I'm gonna bring this up," and, you know, to me that is, like, such a sad commentary, and at the same time it's such a demonstration of how far we have to go for people to be heard and the space that we have to learn to hold for each other. Like, we've got to do that--you know what? We need to do that without being asked. That's where I really want to get, right? So that if I'm in this meeting and I hear you bring up this brilliant idea, you don't even need to ask me to have your back. Like, I am gonna instinctively know if you're talked over or if somebody steals your idea or somebody poo-poos it that I'm gonna intervene, and I'm gonna know what's going on, and that to me, that would be sort of nirvana in the workplace, that those pre-conversations, that pre-planning that you just described doesn't even need to happen because everyone knows it's an issue and everyone's on guard for it. Like, can you imagine? Like, if we were all like, "Oh, no, no." You know, "She is not gonna be talked over," or "His idea is not going to be dismissed," you know? "And I'm gonna quote it, and I'm gonna bring the attention back to him and, you know, his idea." It's like the women in the Obama cabinet. I love that story, where they literally decided, like, that this was not gonna happen anymore, and they all banded together and made the plan.Zach: Yes, I loved that.Jennifer: And then they went into--I know. And then they went into the meeting, and they all, like, echoed each other's ideas and mentioned each other by name and made eye contact with other women in the room. So they sort of redirected everybody's attention. I'm still--believe it or not, if I go into a meeting with my male colleague, they will talk to him. Like, it still happens to me. Oh, yeah. And I'm a CEO, and he works for me, you know? [both laugh] So yeah, it's still a thing. And he's really good, because he'll, like, redirect back to me. Zach: "Um, actually, Ms. Brown, what do you think?" [laughs]Jennifer: Yes. Well, he'll say, "Well, as Jennifer always says," right? "As somebody who is an acknowledged expert." I love that. [laughs] But yeah, we need to do that [?], and that would be nirvana. So I really talk about that a lot in my book. Like, the emotional labor of having to ask for help, I really, really wish more of us would know that help is needed. Like, we would know the data. We would know the research. You know, for God's sake, like, read the McKenzie report on women that they do every year. Zach: Oh, it's so good.Jennifer: Yeah, it's so good, and you'll realize that women of color have different headwinds than white women. Just that, you know? And if you go into meetings and you see this dynamic and you have any level of privilege, any level of positional power where you're listened to in a different way, you need to activate that so that you change those numbers and those outcomes. Like, you must do that. And it's such a small thing. This takes two seconds. Like, that's the thing when people are like, "Ugh, inclusion takes so much time, and I'm so busy, and I don't know how--it competes with the business priorities, and I have a long list, and, like, I'm already strapped for time." All of that--I don't think this takes a lot of time. It just takes a moment of attention to [bias?] your own others, a quick conversation to check in with somebody, a request for feedback, a "Hey, you know, I wanted to follow up with you after that meeting." Like, "I really thought your idea was great. I want to support you. How can do I do more of that?" That, like, takes two seconds to say, and like you said earlier, it's so welcome. Like, I think that's the--people are like, "I don't know how to start that conversation." [laughs] It's like, "Most of these conversations are, like, a gift to so many people who are never asked these questions to begin with," right? So please approach me. Ask me how can you support me more differently. What could you say in a meeting? What could you say after a meeting to someone when I'm not around? You know, I think that's the other piece, right? Like, give feedback to people that look like you. Like, I always say, you know, "Men listen to other men in a very different way." And so, you know, if you've got the privilege of being listened to. You know, the messenger, not just the message, and you can take the burden off of my shoulders to have a hard conversation with somebody, to say, "Hey, that joke made me uncomfortable." Like, that's a very risky move for me to do, 'cause I--you know, that is drawing attention to my difference. I have no idea how that person is going to react. And so I really--as a woman, I really appreciate men who proactively are like, "What can I do to--" Really it's kind of protect you in a way, and it's not protect in a sort of damsel-in-distress kind of way. It is literally--like, it could be protecting an idea. It could be making sure you don't fall victim to politics in the office. It could be that I represent you when you're not in the room and I talk about how brilliant you are, you know? It's that kind of thing, because otherwise we're sort of hanging out in the wind. And one of the things I always say is diverse talent is undermentored and very undersponsored, which means that we're not--we literally aren't looked after, like, informally. We are not--like, somebody's not like, "Well, let me have that career conversation with her to make sure that she's up for that role, so that she has P&L experience, so that she's then positioned so she can get that promotion," because there's all of these, like, unspoken and unwritten rules that we're not privy to when you're not in the power structure. So I often task people I speak to, like, "Look at the people you mentor. Look at the people you sponsor. Do they look like you?" You know, if they do, and you are a certain demographic, like, you must remedy that. Like, you've got to be mentoring across difference, sponsoring across difference, and--by the way, it should be reverse mentoring as well. It should be mutual so that you're learning--to your point earlier, like, how are you getting your learning about cultural differences? It's in the context of these really, really important one-on-one relationships. So wherever you can power share, wherever you can be influenced or learn somebody's experience, as a senior executive, your biggest risk is that you're isolated from all of this, and therefore you're not an effective leader. You're not positioning yourself for the future. You're harming your company, because you're setting this vision every day, but you--there's so much you don't know. So, you know, I think that's a good wake-up call for people usually. And if that doesn't work, [laughs] I don't know. I give up.Zach: [laughs] I don't know.Jennifer: I'm like, "I've given you now two books to read." You know, 63 podcast episodes. You know? Come on. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "What more do you want more from me?"Jennifer: What more do you need? It's writing on the wall. Wake up, you know? Get with--get on the train, you know, and be willing to make mistakes as we were talking about earlier, and, you know, even know how to do a good apology, 'cause, you know, I think there is a real art to a real apology. I think you said earlier [that] there's nothing worse than somebody who, like, says all the right things but, like, in this really authentic kind of faux, polished way.Zach: Yes. You know what? We're gonna have to have you back just to talk about the topic of apologizing [?]. Like, for real.Jennifer: Yeah, right? I love that apology. I mean, I love that topic. Sorry.Zach: No, no, you're good.Jennifer: But a good apology can make up for everything, and it's almost like a required skill set, particularly for those in the majority, because things are gonna happen. Like, you're gonna mess it up. You are. And so being comfortable with uncomfortable, comfortable with hard feedback, and, to me, not slinking away into the corner but saying, "Thank you so much for that, and I'm gonna try it again, and I'm gonna do it differently." Like, wouldn't that resilience be really neat to hear and see in our leaders?Zach: It would. It would be great, and I think--you know, believe it or not I'm actually a little bit encouraged coming out of this conversation. This has been really good.Jennifer: [laughs] Really?Zach: Yeah, I am.Jennifer: Oh, that's good, 'cause we talked about some cynical stuff. [laughs]Zach: We did, we did, but it was real though.Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's such a mixed bag, but like you said earlier, like, we're living in really interesting times of awakening, and you're right--like, I think ever since the 2016 election I would say is when so many people and so many companies were like, "Oh, my goodness," you know? MLK Jr., "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." One of my favorite quotes, but guess what? We have to bend the arc. Like, the arc, it ain't gonna bend itself.Zach: Right? It don't just bend by itself. Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, that's the thing. So to me we've got to take that and bend it, and I think what we've realized is it's not this destiny, you know? Things aren't gonna happen without--and they aren't gonna happen because of good intentions. They're not gonna happen because we have maybe progressive values. They're not gonna happen because "Oh, I'm a male leader and I have daughters, so therefore, like, I am an expert on gender equality." No. Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: No. Like, you have to do something, and you have to do something publicly, consistently, constantly. I used an example in a book of Marc Benioff, who is the CEO of Salesforce, who discovered he had a huge pay gap and literally wrote a check for $3 million, like, right away and was like, "I'm gonna gross up pay for people, because I'm not gonna let this stand another day, then we're gonna do the harder work," right? Which is rooting out, like, why did this happen in the first place. And then as he's done this--he does it every year now--they've discovered, by the way, pay gap--not just gender but ethnicity pay gaps. Not surprising.Zach: Right.Jennifer: And then they've acquired so many 10s of companies that also had pay gaps as Salesforce acquired them, and they had to do a new audit, you know, and to look at their pay gaps and, you know, gross it up. So, you know, literally there are people that are--that are just being relentless on this, because under their watch they're not gonna let this persist. And so I do see a lot of courage amongst leaders, and that leaves me really hopeful. I wish I saw it more, and I wish I saw it more publicly. I think there's a lot of really interesting conversations going on with privately with lawyers and, you know, the board and, you know, sometimes I'm privy to those, and I'm really, really heartened by the interest I see in the C-Suite. I have to say, people are getting it, and I think their question now is "How do we change it?" And that's a much harder question to answer when you're dealing with a giant organization that does business all over the world and has to contend with laws in various parts of the world, and, you know, it's hard to know where to start, and I think that's where people are at, that they want to start, and that's a relief to me. I mean, it makes my job easier because I'm not fighting the "Why is this important?" battle all of the time.

Zach speaks with Tamara Fields, the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture. She details her career journey to this point and offers her perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive.Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, I've got some good news, I've got some great news, then I've got some sad news, okay? So if you didn't know, Living Corporate has been partnering with Accenture to present to y'all a leadership series, okay? These are the most experienced North American black and brown managing directors, okay? This is what I'm saying. If you look at North America for Accenture, and you were to say "Hm, where are all the executive leaders who are black and brown and, like, who is the most senior in that group, and what are their stories?" Living Corporate would be able to say, "Oh, you mean these people right here? We got 'em." So that's the good news. That's the great news. The sad news is this is the last entry for now of this leadership series, okay? And my hope is that you--first of all of course you listen to this one, but [that] you'll listen to all of them, because we've been honored to have some amazing guests, and our last guest is no less amazing - Tamara Fields. Tamara Fields is the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture, where she is responsible for bringing innovation to clients, recruiting and retaining top talent, and strengthening Accenture’s relationship with the community. She has over 20 years of experience in the health and public service sector, driving creative, strategic, and transformative solutions for federal and state government clients via multilateral project management, contract management and HR and financial transformation. My goodness, gracious. Sound Man, give me the Flex bomb. Just give it to me right here. [Flex bomb gets dropped] My goodness, gracious. An advocate for inclusion and diversity, Tamara serves as the U.S. co-lead for Accenture’s women’s employee resource group and the inclusion and diversity lead for the Accenture office in Austin. Tamara also serves as a coach and mentor in and outside of Accenture, helping people find their voice and preparing them for career advancement. She speaks at conferences and summits, like Culturati and Texas Conference for Women, and was recognized with the 2018 Central Texas DiversityFIRST award for her commitment to I&D. She is Accenture’s executive recruiting sponsor for her alma mater, the University of Texas, and sits on the Red McCombs School of Business Advisory Council as well as the boards for the Texas Conference for Women and Paul Quinn College, a historically black college in Dallas. So shout-out to our historically black colleges in Dallas. So I'ma go ahead and put the air horns right here [they drop], and I'ma give you that Cardi B "ow" right here as well [Cardi B “ow”], because shout-out to y'all. Love y'all. Now, look, with that being said, the next thing you're gonna be hearing is the interview that I had with Tamara Fields.[pause]Zach: Tamara, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Tamara: I'm doing great. Thanks very much. I appreciate being on.Zach: Oh, yeah. No, no problem. Look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Tamara: Of course. I'm just a Texas girl. Born and raised in Austin, Texas, which I feel like [?] is a unicorn--[both laugh]--with how Austin has grown, but yeah, I'm from Austin, Texas, and I currently work for Accenture. I am our Austin office managing director, so I'm responsible for our Austin office, and I'm also a key executive and managing director in our health and public service practice. So that means I spend quite a lot of work working with non-profits and higher education and with states. I went to the University of Texas at Austin, so I am a Longhorn - to all those proud Longhorns out there. And I think that's probably my quick summary on myself.Zach: Well, you know I gotta go ahead and give you some air horns for all of that, 'cause that's an amazing profile. [I drop 'em]Tamara: Ooh, I like the air horns. Can we have more?Zach: Oh, yeah.Tamara: [?]Zach: Oh, I got way more sound effects. I was trying to say--'cause this is what I'm trying to do. So as a side-note, Tamara--so, you know, Living Corporate has been around for a little over a year, and we add sound effects on the backend, but what I'm trying to do--we've got a soundboard now, so I'm over here trying to, you know, mix it up, add a little pizzazz. I was telling Rah that the last interview [that I was], you know, just trying a few different things out. So, you know, you may hear a few different things as they are appropriate in this conversation, okay?Tamara: Well, appropriate is always very important, so I appreciate that.Zach: Timing is everything.Tamara: And I will not be alarmed by your sounds, all right? Because I believe in disruptive innovation, so let's see what we can do.Zach: Oh, look at you. Look at you flexing. I see you now. Okay, all right. All right, now I'm activated. I appreciate that. [both laugh] So you've been with Accenture for over 20 years. Two sets of 10. Two.Tamara: Yeah. Are you trying to make me feel old? What exactly--[laughs] Yes, yes. Two sets of 10. Thank you, Zach. [both laugh]Zach: No. Well, the reason I bring it up--not to make you feel old. Can we talk a little bit about your journey and what it's looked like for you not just to survive but thrive in consulting, right? Because I've seen--in my experience in consulting and outside of consulting, black professionals--black and brown professionals, a lot of times they will get right up to either that manager or senior manager level and just kind of stay there for a while, and so it's rare--that I've seen, in my experience--many of us break into, like, the true executive-level leadership, and so--you know, it just seems like such a hyper-political space. I'd love just to hear about what your path has been.Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's very interesting. I mean, I think one of the very first reasons why I came to work for Accenture, which at the time was interested in consulting when I graduated, was because I saw people who looked like me. It's really that simple. I initially had a marketing background, so I wasn't even in the technology space at all, or the consulting space. I wasn't focused on that. And one of my friends signed me up, and I went to an interview, and as I was going through the interview process, I started to run into individuals and greeters that they had there, and a couple of people who were friends of mine, who had graduated a couple of years before, were like, "Come on, Tamara. Come try this out." So I did, and it's been interesting to me, because I think that that aspect is what's really helped my career. I think that consulting can be intimidating. There's a lot of work associated with it. You're always having to spend time to stay up on trends and skills and capabilities and technology, and you're always in learning mode at the same time as you're guiding your clients, but what I found most intriguing about it is the fact that it's not a product, it's about people, and it's a team-based activity, and I think, for me, that was important, because I like connection with people. And so I think what's really helped me navigate my career, to be honest with you, has been relationships, right? It's a diverse world, and I think you have a lot of opportunity to own your path and own your career, but you have to do that with having the right people with the right opportunities with your right skill set, and those three things have to match up, and early in my career I didn't really understand that. I thought if you just worked hard, surely you're gonna get patted on the back and get promoted. [laughs] So very quickly you realize that's not the case, and so I really had to learn a couple of key points that I'll share. One is advocacy. It is important, right? And understanding your contribution and what you bring to the table and being able to articulate that, not in a boastful way, but in a way that helps everybody understand the work that you're performing and how you're contributing. That's important, and that was [anti?] to my culture and my world, right? I was raised in a very--in a background that believed in servant leadership. You know, if you do a good job, that's good enough, right? And so it was really hard for me to advocate and really to tell my story and be able to represent my story. And the second thing that was important is you need relationships at all levels - those that work for you and above you, and understanding the ecosystem that you work in, the organization structure that you work in and understanding the key players in that are important, and you need to take the time to understand where you work, how you work, who you're working with. You need to understand how they contribute and leverage that network, and I know people utilize "network" very freely, but it's exceptionally important. Like, you have to have sponsors or a key sponsor, and that sponsor is only a sponsor if they are well-positioned in the company to be able to advocate on your behalf. So that goes back to that first statement of advocacy, and so I had to learn how to navigate that, and I had to learn how to navigate that with individuals who didn't look like me, right? Because when I first came into the company there were a lot of African-American females, and even now, right, that's something that we're committed to, and I'm really thankful to work for a company that's committed to inclusion and diversity, but overall in the technology space, the percentages of African-Americans or Hispanics or women, right, that's still a number that has to grow, right? And so the reality of that means I have to have mentors and sponsors who may not be my makeup, but they're still committed to my success, and I had to learn how to get past my own unconscious bias to reach out and to leverage them and leverage those relationships in telling my story to navigate my career to success. And that was hard for me on multiple levels, one because we all suffer from impostor syndrome at some time. We all doubt ourselves. I wasn't used to talking about myself in that way. Learning how to establish relationships differently, at different levels and in different ways, and so I really had to embrace that in order for me to see, you know, my career path grow.Zach: Wow. So look, you know, it's been a theme, right? I've been talking to y'all, and when I say y'all I'm talking about y'all Accenture MDs. And so I keep on dropping this Flex bomb, but I gotta do it again. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? 'Cause golly. You're dropping real stuff. But, you know, jokes aside, it all boils down to vulnerability, and that's hard, right?Tamara: So hard. [both laugh]Zach: It's hard to practice vulnerability with folks that look like you, let alone folks that don't look like you, especially if you've been burned a couple times by some of those folks who don't look like you. Then it's like, "Well, dang, okay. Not only are my feelings kind of hurt, I also need to figure out a way to preserve myself. So what does it look like for me to just exist here," you know what I mean? So I definitely understand, 100% agree, with every point you made, and I just--[coin sfx]--you know, I just want to--I really do appreciate you sharing those points, because it is true that a lot of times, like, we--I'll speak for myself, 'cause your point around servant leadership resonated with me. That's definitely, like, my background as well. It's, like, the whole just "Okay, look, lead with humility. Look out for those before you look out for yourself," and that framework, while I'm not saying it isn't--I still believe in it, but it creates challenges in spaces where everyone is so very much so looking out for themselves. So what does it look like to practice servant leadership, but at the same time tactfully, professionally, honestly advocate for yourself? Like, those are--that's a hard balance to find, you know what I mean?Tamara: It is, and I think what we think is sometimes they have to be mutually exclusive, and that's not the case, right? What I had to learn was--and I was actually coached on this. And this was hard, right? I was very used to always saying "we did this," and "we did this," and "we did that." What they really want to understand [is] "What did you do, Tamara, as part of this collective," you know, success or project that you're talking about. Because they understand that you didn't deliver the project by yourself. [both laugh] [?] leadership, right? What they're trying to understand is what piece of the pie did you have, and how did you influence that? What ingredients did you add into that pay to help that pie taste wonderful, right? And so I had to learn how to use the word "I," which was hard, and at the same time use the word "team." So I would have to say things like, you know, "I directed the team to do this, and this is how the team executed this." You know, "We set up this collaboration method or this design session," you know, and "I facilitated that, and the team came up with some really innovative ideas. I helped the team work through how to deliver that." You know, "I delivered these pieces of the effort, and I honed this client relationship, and I helped the client interact with these team members in this way." But it was really about making sure that we clarified how I personally contribute, and then at the same time also talk to the team objective. So you can do both, and I don't--and I think that's where people miss, right? It's not to negate what the team does, but that team is working for you. [coin sfx] They're helping you be high-performing. Absolutely give them credit for that, and you need to definitely talk about that, but you're a part of that team. You're directing that team. You're providing leadership to that team. Those aspects of what you're doing shouldn't be ignored, and you can share that and still share in that team's success, because your success is the team's success and vice versa. And so recognizing that fact I think was key in my ability to start understanding how to speak to how I contributed and how the team contributed and how we did it together.Zach: Amen. Come on, now. You know what? And something else can we talk about for a second is--'cause you talked about using the word "I" and, like, what it is you did. Can we talk a little bit about--in terms of looking to progress and thrive in these corporate spaces as a leader, as a person of color, as a--let me be more specific, because sidenote--and we're gonna get to this later in the questions--Tamara, does it ever annoy you when people use, like, the term "person of color," like, as a catch-all as opposed to being more explicit and saying, like, "black and brown?" And it's okay if--I'm just curious.Tamara: That doesn't bother me so much. I just think that what--what probably bothers me even more than that is I think that people should not be afraid to use terms, right? I am an African-American, and if you're concerned about what to ask, then ask me what my preferred term is and I'll share it, right? Because I think it's important to put out. It's just in the same way that when people say "I don't see color." I don't understand what that means, right? Because the reality is I am a person of color. I am an African-American, I am a woman, and I don't want to ignore these facts. They bring uniqueness to my personality, being a female, being an African-American, being a Texan, being a UT grad. They're all just aspects and characteristics that I bring to the table that I think is unique, and that's what brings that innovation to the conversation. So you don't need to ignore it, and a lot of times, if I'm presenting at an I&D conference or any type of meeting, I will say that just right off the bat, because sometimes you just need to take out the concern, the tension, the fear around these conversation points. I think it goes back to being authentic. You know, early in my career, it was hard for me to fully embrace some of these topics courageously, right? And I had to come to my own place of "This is who I am at 100%," and I had to represent me, and if I'm going to be an authentic leader--and I really think when I made that shift is when I actually started to see a lot more success a lot faster in my career, because I fully embraced who I was. And that doesn't mean everybody has to like it, but they need to respect it and understand what I bring to the table. And so I thin kit's really about the fact that you need to know who you are, fully accept who you are, bring that fully all-in from an authentic point of view, and you're gonna have success when you do that.Zach: I love it. So I paused and asked you a side question before I got to my real question. So my real question is can we talk a little bit about, as a leader, why it's important to make sure you're doing the right kind of work, and I share that because for me--I'm a newer manager. I've been a manager, like, maybe two years or so. I think this will be my second year just being a manager. I was coming from another firm. Now I'm at a new firm as a manager, and coming into this new firm, I've been--I've got the feedback that, like, "Look, Zach, as a manager--as a leader, your job is not to quote-unquote get things done. Your job is to actually lead the team." And so I know for me, I think just the way that I--maybe just my background, how I've been coached, I've felt like there's always been a pressure to prove myself and show that I'm actually doing something, as opposed to what does it look like to actually facilitate the team and drive results through the team that I'm leading. Can you talk a little bit about, like, your journey in pivoting from being, like, a person who just got a lot of tasks done very well to really influencing and driving results for a group of people?Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I've had-- I think I've had two major what I would call crossroad points where that occurred, right? So just like you, when you, you know, made that point, from consultant to manager, you're--you know, and those are terms we utilize in my Accenture consulting world. It's that difference of you're part of the team and you're doing the work to you need to direct what the work and strategic vision needs to be, and you need to own that and direct the team and manage that, and manage the deadlines, the deliverables, et cetera. And I think really what that is about is understanding that you can't do all things and you need to prioritize your time and be effective, and it's hard for you to provide proper oversight to the team and manage the quality deliverables they're generating if you don't do that. What really helped me is, you know, we have various trainings, right? And we talk about what it really means--what are the expectations of a manager versus a team member, right? And I think that a lot of times we get these promotions, we don't always spend the time to understand what are the requirements and the new expectations for that new role. And so the first thing I would tell people is you need to just be straight up with your boss. "Help me understand what you expect." [laughs] "What do you expect me to do?" And when you start to write that down, then you've got to th ink about how you're gonna deliver that, and if you start to deliver that and you're at 80 hours a week, then you know somewhere there's a problem.Zach: You're absolutely right.Tamara: It's that practical at times, right? The other thing I would say is you--I believe in this mentorship concept and having people above you who can see how you're working and what you're doing, because sometimes we don't see, and you need to constantly be getting the 360 feedback, right? I believe in the 30/30, right? 30 days and 30 minutes, right? And you need to ask your leadership, right, "Am I operating at the level you expect? Where do you see those changes? What do you want me to do less of and more of," right? And you need to be asking those questions on a regular basis so that you're learning through that, and then you need to observe those above you, what they're doing, how they're doing it, and how they're working, right? It's a natural inflection point that when you switch to leadership you've got to delegate more. You've got to trust your team, and you've got to be able to balance when you dig in and when you don't, and you need to have the time available to dig in on the real issues and ignore the rest, and you can't do that if you're not at that right level of ownership, oversight, and digging in, right? But if you're always in the weeds you can never see--you know, if you're always in the trees you can never see the forest, right? And so you have to work on that strategic view. The second inflection point, which was really a bigger one for me, was really when I switched to becoming a managing director, and what was interesting about that was not so much about the work, because as a senior manager at Accenture, you're already managing pretty large teams and pretty large efforts, and they did a good job in giving us trainings. We even have special inclusion and diversity trainings for African-Americans and Hispanics. You know, we're very committed to that, and so, you know, I felt like I had plenty of exposure and understanding and coaching and development and leadership training, right? What I hadn't always understood is that [soft?] skill change that has to happen as you move up that ladder, right? [laughs] By nature I'm very direct, and, you know, how you have conversations at one level versus how you have to the conversation when you are truly in charge, leading an entire portfolio or a set of work or a set of people's shifts, and sometimes you do need to be more sensitive about how you share and communicate information and how you interact with individuals, because there's an expectation there of leadership that comes with that. And so, you know, when I first kind of made that transition, I was still somewhat operating in my previous, you know, method of operation. And I had a sponsor come set up a meeting with me, and I didn't know what--I thought we were gonna talk about this one thing and he was like, "Hey, Tamara, I've noticed something," and what was good about that is we already had the relationship. We already had the relationship, so he already knew he could setup the meeting. And because we had the relationship and because he was one of my sponsors, he just really wants me to be successful, and he knew--and because we had that established relationship, he knew he could have a direct conversation and say, "Hey, I don't think you handled this meeting correctly. You're now X. This is how I would expect you to handle the meeting. You need to think about that." And it was really hard, it was really impacting, but it was right, and so it really helped me to make that soft skill adjustment that I didn't even realize needed to happen. And when you have the right people in your world, and the right relationship with them, they're gonna help you be successful in that way.Zach: No, I love it. And it goes right back to what you were saying at the top, right, about relationships and trust and vulnerability, right? Like, if there wasn't a focus--if there wasn't that time spent in the beginning building those and practicing vulnerability and building those relationships, then you may not have had that conversation.Tamara: That's exactly right, and I think that hurts a lot of people because vulnerability is important, and you have to be willing to be humble. You have to be willing to be [?], to receive constructive feedback, and you have to have the kind of relationships where you are allowed and able to do that exchange. You know, I think that what people would say about me is honesty and authenticity matters to me 100%, and I tell them from the get-go, like, "I want to know. I can take it. I want to hear. Help me to understand, help me to grow, help me to be better," because the reality is I don't know all the answers. I don't know how to execute always and always in all positions, and I don't [?]. I need to still--you should always be in learning mode, and you should always recognize there's someone to learn from and something to learn about.Zach: Absolutely. So I think this is actually a really good transition point to my next question. You know, in your Essence Magazine feature--[Cardi B "ow" sfx]--you share a bit about how you've made it a part of your role to champion diversity.Tamara: Oh, yeah.Zach: Okay. So now, Tamara, so--you know, you don't know me, I don't really know you like that, but I'ma tell you - I'm a pretty gregarious person, and in a part of that gregariousness comes an ability to build relationships and have a lot of real talk sessions with black and brown senior leaders, right? So I've spoken to quite a few of them, and they're nervous about championing diversity because they don't want to be pegged as the "black person whisperer," or pigeon-holed in a space that is like, you know, away from business. So what are your thoughts on that, and how do you combat that perception?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a fair concern, and I think you always have to [?] for the company you're in. You know, for myself--let me just tell you straight up that I am passionate about inclusion and diversity period, and it doesn't matter what everybody thinks about it or how they--you know, if there's gonna be a negative or positive perception. I think that you have to do what is right for you and what is your moral code, and I believe that I have that responsibility, right? I was the, you know, first African-American female to be an OMD, right? The first female to be an OMD in the Austin office, right? I was one of the first black females to be promoted in Texas even, into a managing director role. I absolutely have a responsibility to represent and push I&D so that other people can see me, and if I'm not out there, you know, present for them to see, then they may not believe that that's an opportunity in this company, and I want them to know that it is, right? Because if I can get there, so can you. And so I just feel like--I feel very passionate about that. I'm not blind to that concern, right? And so I think the difference for me is I am in the business, right? I'm still managing a large portion of our business. I have a responsibility for a large, you know, P&L revenue responsibility, profitability responsibility, and I feel like I can do that job and still manage my career success and be committed to inclusion and diversity. Now, I will say that it's easier for me because I work at a company that is committed to I&D period, right? We were the first company to publish our numbers out there in the market in our space, and that was a pretty big deal. So we believe in it. We have accountability around it. You know, I have a CEO for North America who is female who has made a commitment to, you know, gender parity across our industry groups, right? I work in an industry group where we've already hit gender parity, in health and public service within the U.S., and that's a big deal. So this is not something they shy away from. It's a part of our responsibilities as managing directors, right? We have accountability for it, and so I feel that. So I feel like I am in a position to champion something that's important to me and at the same time deliver on the business, but I think you've got to do both. In the same token, right, I have an I&D role in my public service entity group, because I want people to know that this is important to me and I feel I need to represent that conversation. Equally however, I have just as many conversations about the business, my skill areas, around my clients, around technology trends. So people know me for an expert in so many different ways that I'm not just I&D. That's never going to be the conversation for Tamara, because Tamara has put herself out there around innovation and back office and front office and public service and--do you know what I mean? So my thing is you need to have more than just that dialogue. You need to have multiple dialogues absolutely, but you can do that. Incidentally though, there was a role that was offered to me that I chose to not take that was a +1 role in I&D, because I said, "You know what? We need to give back to someone else, 'cause I'm going to be doing I&D no matter what," right? I'm going [?]--I used to be the [?] sponsor of special, you know, trainings and learnings. I'm gonna show up at the conferences I think I need to show up. I will do that. I will make the extra time in my schedule to do that 'cause I'm passionate about it. Let's make sure other people are going down that path. I wasn't interested in being an I&D practitioner, 'cause that's not that I believe my role was. I wanted to be a managing director in the business, and I did that. [laughs] And so now that I've done that, I see it as an opportunity to be a strong influencer about where we move in that space, how we move in that space, how we're successful in that space, and I can influence that on my teams and in every way and be courageous enough to have those conversations. And I believe we have to be courageous about what's important, because the reality is we don't have enough brown and black people, so to speak, in this space, in technology. I want to change that, right? And so, you know, that's a decision I made. I think you have to make personal decisions. But what I would challenge people is, you know, "Why would you want someone else's path to be harder or more difficult than your own path? You should want it to be better and easier."Zach: Right. No, you're absolutely right, and, you know, I love your point around the fact that having multiple specialties--you know, not that you're gonna be a jack of all trades and a master of nothing, but if you have a handful of things that you're very, very skilled at--because let's say if you are passionate about I&D, and then you also have these other specialties, well, then you can then weave I&D into your domain, because I&D is ultimately focused on making sure that everyone feels involved, included, and empowered, and whatever you're talking about, especially in the tech space, is gonna involve people. So it's--I&D really isn't, like, sequestered over to something on the side. If you have a specialty, some type of depth of knowledge in something else, it's easy to then infuse that with I&D.Tamara: That's correct. I think that's right, and I think that you can have a huge impact on this space by just getting to a place of leadership, right? You can have a huge impact on the conversations that are being had and making sure that, you know, the right decisions are being made and the right opportunities are being offered for all people. At the end of the day, what we believe in is inclusion, right? We have this "Inclusion Starts With I" video that I absolutely love, 'cause it's not just about gender and ethnicity. It's about so many different aspects. It's about everyone having a voice at the table, and I think that's what's most important.Zach: Absolutely, and that's, again, a really good segue. So last year you were featured on The Daily Texan, where you gave your perspective on gender equality. Now, taking a step back, what I often see is when we look at--we really do look at gender in, like, binary terms, right? We don't really consider race as an intersect between gender, and we don't often include trans identities in these discussions. What is your perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive?Tamara: Oh, absolutely. So I'm a huge fan of employee resource groups. [laughs] So we have a--so it's interesting that you say that, right? So again, it's about your personal choice to get involved, but I'm the co-lead for our United States Women employee resource group for all of the United States, and it's an awesome opportunity, right? 'Cause it really gives me a landscape to do so many different, interesting things, and I have a full team underneath me as the executive sponsor. And it's so interesting that you bring this up, because this year we talked about "What are the topics out there that we want to have," right? And one of them was around this concept of intersectionality with various groups and topics that don't come up, and interestingly, like, we just scheduled a Women of Color Voices of Leadership call in July, right? And I'm gonna sit down with our North American inclusion and diversity lead, and we're gonna talk about some of the metrics that we see women of color in corporate America and what does that mean. What does that mean, and how do we address some of the gaps that we see in corporate America? What are the key concerns that are impacting them that might be different from other groups? And what can we do about it? How do we help everybody be successful? And so I think it's really about leveraging your employee resource groups to bring the conversation to the table, whether you're doing that through a national kind of Voices of Leadership call or whether you're doing that individually in your cities, 'cause we're fortunate in that we also have employee resource groups at every city location. And so we have them dial into the sessions. Sometimes they host their own sessions. We do leadership panels around these topics, and we've done them around all of these dimensions that you're talking about. And, you know, we have LGBTQ employee resource groups. We have men's. We have military. And people are really active in them, and they're very important. We do cross-pollination across our employee resource groups, with our African-American one and our Women one, because we think that's important, to have this dialogue and talk about what it means. You know, there was some really interesting national-scale stories going on last year that were impacting people, and we will do calls on them. And they're voluntary. People don't have to join in. And we can talk about "How are people feeling about that? What did it mean to come to work when that news story broke last night? How are you feeling?" Right? We think it's important to have courageous conversations and put that dialogue out there, and we do that through the employee resource groups so that 1. you recognize there's legal and HR concerns and you want to do that appropriately--excuse me--but it's the right forum, because that's where the people are and that's where the conversation should occur.Zach: No, 100%. And to your point around--I believe you're talking about some stories--you're alluding to death by police of black people and other, like, stories around--just tragedy and loss regarding black and brown folk in the media?Tamara: Yeah. Like Black Lives Matter or things around immigration, right? These are things that impact certain cultures in a very strong way and impact, you know, how they feel about--because we can act like we can completely ignore that, but we bring our whole selves to work, right? And we don't know what people are dealing with in relation to that, no different than when we talk about those who are having to provide elderly care, right? Or they're the main provider for their children, or, you know, they're dealing with sickness or illness, right? All of these matter--all of these things matter, and so we think it's important that those conversations be out there to deal with, because that helps people cope, and that's important.Zach: It is. It's really important, and I think one thing I'm really curious about--I'm certain that some organization is going to do some research and make it, like, a formal report, but there's a certain level of just emotional labor that goes into being a non--a member of the non-majority, right, in the workplace. Like, there's--you know, we've [seen], you know, on The Root and other articles in the past. We've called it, like, "Calling In Black," and we've kind it made it, like, a joke, but also there's a lot of realness behind that in that just existing in some of these spaces, existing as you are, seeing some of the things on the news, interacting in these spaces where you're one of few can be exhausting. And so I 100% agree that ERGs are a really strong help, and then also having leadership that looks like you is a help, but I'm also really just--I'm personally curious, like, just from a health perspective, what the mental toll is for black and brown folks in the workplace, because it's a--when you see some of these things in the media, folks that look like you or that remind you of a family member or remind you of yourself, that has to have some type of impact on you, you know what I mean?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think that all of us have these additional +1 emotional labor situations, emotional things, but I think that for myself, right--I feel like this has been our world before I even came into corporate America. So I feel like, right or wrong, people can think what they think about it. I believe this additional layer that you're speaking to, this additional burden, however you want to call it--that extra understanding that comes when you are the non-majority in a world. And I especially feel that in Austin, because--you know, African-Americans in Austin right now is, like, 6%, right? [laughs] So it's a very small percentage, and so, you know, I always went to, you know, schools that did not look like me, and I was the only one. And so, you know, and then the conflicts of that versus my weekend world with my family and my church that might be all-majority African-American, for example. I think that we always have that emotional toll, and, you know, just like anything, I leverage my family and my friends to manage against that, right? And what I have to be careful with is to make sure I'm reading situations correctly and not putting something in there that isn't, and then sometimes it really is what I think it is and how to best navigate that with either courageous conversations or raising it up through the chain, right? And we have to do that, and we can't be afraid to do that.Zach: 100%. No, 100%. Okay, so I've got a couple more questions for you. This has actually gone really well. I appreciate you. This is one of our longer conversations in this series, and this has been great. A large part of your role involves talent recruitment. Can you share your predictions about what organizations will need to do to attract talent in the next 10 to 15 years?Tamara: Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I mean, I think--for one thing, if they haven't already, they should be spending time--there's a lot of new companies out there that consult around the new generations and what's important to them, so the millennial generation, Generation Z, Generation Y, and what's important to them and how they operate and how they make decisions around company culture, and we've already done a lot of adjustments, and we're still doing that. I mean, we're pretty fortunate in that we're a consulting firm, so it's our nature to disrupt and understand trends for the future, right? We do that with [?] trends and our technology vision, but what we have found--and we've already gotten--I've gotten a lot of training around this already, but some of the ideologies, for example, for the millennial generation is very different than a baby boomer generation or even a Generation X, and so people need to spend time in understanding that. So for example, millennials are very civic-oriented, right? The percentage that they give, whether in time or money, is a lot higher, right? Sometimes they're more concerned with short-term versus long-term benefits. So example, in the past, right, if you were talking to a baby boomer generation, you would have spent a lot of time talking about pensions or talking about retirement and profit sharing or matching and all those things. Those same type of conversations don't immediately appeal to millennials. They really want to understand how they're gonna be valued, how they're going to move through the organization. They also want to know how the organization is giving back. They want to understand the corporate culture of the organization. And that's new, right? In the past, you didn't really spend so much time talking about corporate culture, culture fit or culture add, right, but these are terminologies that are gonna be utilized today, and so, you know, that organization has to spend time figuring out what is their culture, and what is the key messaging that they're presenting in that, so that people can make an interpretation of whether or not that's a good fit for them. You know, they're gonna want to see that that company is moving and changing with the world, you know? I think--when we presented as part of--a couple of years back, our technology vision that every company was a digital company, people were like, "What? What are you talking about?" Right? But the reality of today, I think everybody understands every company--it doesn't matter who you are or what you're doing, from oil and gas to higher education, you're digital, right? Because people interact today from a digital point of view in every regard, from payroll to, you know, those who are in the service industry to those who are not, right? And so you have to have a presence socially. You have to have a presence from a web perspective. You have to have an internal presence for how you communicate, chat, with individuals. So every aspect matters, so companies have to understand that. They're gonna have to take a strong perspective on their work schedule and their flex schedules, you know? We have fully embraced truly human at Accenture, and I think that that's important, right? It's important for us to have flex schedules. It's important for us to have paternity leave. It's important that we have, you know, extended [?] maternity leave considerations. These things matter to the millennial generation, and they ask. They want to know, as a company, what are we sponsoring at a national level from a corporate perspective? What are we doing on the local level from a corporate perspective? They want to understand how you're going to train them and keep them up to date on skills, and so what are you offering around that? So I think, like, companies today have to be exceptionally dynamic. They're gonna have to spend time leveraging profiles, and again, what's gonna be a good profile that would fit and learn and do well in their environment. You're already seeing that with artificial intelligence. You're already seeing people trying to leverage AI as a way to do screenings initially on what is the right candidate pool for a company. So they have to adapt digitally, right? Because it's already starting, and that's going to be the path longer-term, right? So just--and having a really strong, you know, recruitment cycle from where they're pulling in and how it goes through that automated process. The time frames by which people get through the cycle has to be faster, because people aren't gonna wait, and the market is really demanding right now. What are they gonna concentrate on from a higher institution? What's the type of profile? So, you know, I think today companies really have to be on it. It's really competitive, and it's really hard, but my recommendation is they need to spend some time at first just studying who it is they're hiring. The largest work generation today is the millennial generation already, right? And so they need to understand that profile.Zach: All right, now, companies. Y'all hearing Tamara talking to y'all, okay? And we gave this to y'all for free. Y'all gonna be over there trying to get everything--y'all gonna be out here thinking y'all's company is all set up, you know, that y'all got everything going on, y'all got the latest and greatest, you know, DOS computer, and us millennials, we're looking at you like [haha sfx]. You know, you need to pay attention. That's all I'm trying to say. Tamara, this has been great. This has been great. My heartfelt thanks goes to you for just being here.Tamara: Oh, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to have my voice out there on stuff that I'm really passionate about. I really appreciate that.Zach: Oh, no, no. This is dope, and I know the people, they're gonna love this. Before we go--and you've been dropping jewels this entire conversation, but I want to just give you one more spot to wax poetic if you need to. Any parting words or shout-outs?Tamara: Yeah. You know, what I would tell y'all out there is to be you and fully accept who you are, and spend some time knowing who you are. You know, early in my career I spent so much time on my insecurities, and I allowed that to direct my actions, my communication, my lack of communication with people. If people didn't invite me to lunch, I just sat there being depressed versus being like, "Hey, do you want to go to lunch with me?" Right? And a lot of that centered around impostor syndrome and being uncomfortable in a space because it didn't look like me and with people who didn't look like me. When I really embraced who I was and that I was proud of who I am and what I represent and really understood what I brought to the table, then I recognized I can control that dialogue. I can control the stories that are out there about me, and I want to own those stories, and that, you know, fully embrace you. Be your authentic self and be all of you, from your hair to your clothes into the environment into the story, into the conversation, and do that unapologetically, at the same time with a spirit of humility and respect.Zach: [straight up sfx] Tamara, this has been incredible. We consider you a friend of the show. Again, we thank you for your time, and we hope to have you back.Tamara: I would love to come back, absolutely.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon.Tamara: Thank you.Zach: Peace.

Zach sits down with Michelle Gadsden-Williams, the managing director and North American inclusion & diversity lead at Accenture, to discuss her role at work and why inclusion is placed first in her job title. They also talk about her book, Climb, and how she sees organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans people.Read Michelle's full bio on AIT, and check out her book on Amazon! Connect with her on Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and I’m really excited to share something with y’all, okay? Now, I shared this last week, but just in case you missed it last week I’ma share it again. Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most experienced North American black and brown managing directors and share their journeys, okay? My hope is you check out this and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our next guest, Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Michelle Gadsden-Williams is the managing director [and] inclusion and diversity lead for North America at Accenture. Previously, she was the co-founder and chief operating officer of women’s empowerment initiatives and diverse entertainment investments, based in New York City. Michelle Gadsden-Williams has acquired a number of community service awards and accolades for her work as a diversity practitioner. More recently, she has been recognized as a 2015 Ebony Magazine Power 100 Honoree. Over the span of her career, Gadsden-Williams has been profiled in Black Enterprise Magazine, Diversity Inc., Diversity Executive, Ebony, Essence, Fortune, History Makers, Heart & Soul, Jet, New Vision—listen, y’all. Y’all get it, right? Okay, I’ma put the whole bio in the show notes. The point is Michelle has it going on. She’s killing it, okay? Beast. Straight up. [straight up sfx] And you know what? Also put one of those “owww”. [owww sfx] Like, this is crazy. I’m just so, so impressed. Her other notable tributes include being named the 2010 recipient of the Maya Way Award for Diversity Leadership by the incomparable Dr. Maya Angelou, receiving the 2008 recipient of the Harvard Black Men’s Forum Businesswoman of the Year Award, accepting the Rainbow Push Coalition’s Bridge Builder Award by the honorable Rev Jesse L. Jackson, and being recognized with an honorary Doctorate of Humane Letters Degree from Kean University for her outstanding personal and professional accomplishments in the field of diversity and inclusion. In 2013, Gadsden-Williams was appointed as a member of the Global Advisory Council on Gender Parity for the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Y’all… do y’all understand—like, come on. Give me the air horns right here. [air horns sfx] Like, this is incredible. I am just impressed. I mean, look, man, I’m over here—we grindin’. Like, like, like… [what more do you want from me?] Look, with that being said, the next thing you’re gonna hear is my interview with Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Check it out.Zach: Michelle, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Michelle: I am doing very well. How are you?Zach: [applause sfx] Doing really well, really excited to have you on the show. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. My name is Michelle Gadsden-Williams, and I am the managing director and lead for inclusion and diversity in North America with Accenture and the author of the award-winning book "Climb."Zach: Come on, now. [both laugh] Now--I love it. I love it from the jump. We'll be talking about Climb--we're gonna get there a little bit later in this conversation. Let's talk a little bit about the first thing you said, about the fact that you're the North American lead for I&D. And your title is I&D and not D&I. Can we talk a little bit about why inclusion has been placed firstMichelle: And this is a phenomena that's been happening, I'd say, over the past few years, where a lot of organization and diversity practitioners are starting to think of this notion of diversity as being--being a standalone entity is no longer enough, that inclusion is extremely paramount as having a culture of inclusion. So diversity is the invitation to the party, and inclusion is being asked to dance, as we say. So in my view, I&D is an essential component of everything that Accenture does, and we aim to be the most inclusive organization in the world, and so we recognize that inclusion and diversity foster greater creativity and innovation. So that's one of the reasons why we've decided to reverse it and have big I and big D.Zach: I love it, I love it. You know, and it's interesting, because a piece from Take the Lead, where you were featured, starts like this. It says, quote, "When Michelle Gadsden-Williams started working in human resources in 1990, the mission in her field was called affirmative action." And, I mean, that's really interesting, right? 'Cause we talked a little bit before we started the show--we talked a little bit about your tenure, right, and the breadth and depth of your experience, and, you know--so you started in 1990. Despite it being almost 2020, there are still folks who believe I&D efforts are some version of affirmative action. So, like, how do you, as an executive leader, navigate the fears and frustrations of those who look at I&D as a zero-sum game?Michelle: Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I'm going to go back to a piece of research that Accenture conducted a short time ago. And one of the things that we've done, earlier this year, is to take a step back and think about, you know, what is this impact of I&D in the workplace, and so we conducted a survey of about 18,000 employees of companies around the world, and we asked two very important questions, one of which was "How inclusive is your culture?" The other was "How willing are you to innovate?" And so while diversity factors very much into--and has a significant impact on--the innovation mindset, a culture of equality is the multiplier, and that's what's really going to help companies maximize innovation. So when I started doing this work many years ago, and actually it was just before 1990--yes, it was called affirmative action, and the strategy was really more about "So how many individuals of difference do you have?" So it was basically a headcount exercise. It had nothing to do with culture. It had nothing to do with inclusion. It had nothing to do about what we're talking about today. So fast forward to current day. This notion of inclusion and diversity has evolved, and now many organizations are really starting to see the true power of what this work represents, that it's not just about counting heads. It's about making those heads count and ensuring that every single individual, regardless of their difference, has an opportunity to realize their potential, realize their ambition, have a seat at the table, and to reach their career aspiration, whatever that may be.Zach: That's a really powerful point, because--it's interesting. I've been having conversations with folks who talk about inclusion, and I've asked individuals and leaders of organizations, like, "Look, how do you actually define inclusion?" And people will say, "Well, making sure everybody feels included." And I was like, "Okay..." [both laugh]Michelle: Well, that's interesting.Zach: And I'm like, "Okay..." But what I think is paramount when we talk about inclusion is the fact that inclusion from my perspective--and this may sound--maybe I'm framing it radically, but there's some type of distribution of power, right, to individuals so that they actually have a true voice. Like, I don't--I don't see a voice at the table absent some level of authority or power. And so when you talk about, like, career development and making sure that they're growing and that folks are progressing and things of that nature, what I'm hearing is--and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so help me, keep me honest--what I'm hearing is is that part of that inclusion definition also comes with some level of--if it's, like, promotion or positioning them, positioning folks, so their voice can actually be heard in ways that make sense, right? It's not just about, you know, nodding and smiling, but making sure that they're actually empowered.Michelle: That's exactly right. We all--like, we're all sitting around a table, that it's allowing individuals the place and the space to allow their perspective or their point of view to be voiced. So we all have a responsibility to ensure that that happens, whether or not people recognize that or not. I believe that's what true inclusion is all about, ensuring that people who have a seat at that table, they believe that they matter, that their perspectives and opinions and points of view--that they matter.Zach: No, I love that. I love that, and it's so--I really do believe--and I recognize your point in that where Accenture is in their journey, in their I&D journey, but I would challenge that--as I've had multiple conversations with other leaders, HR practitioners, other folks who ascribe themselves as I&D leaders or D&I leaders--that definition of inclusion, it always falls a little bit short to me. And maybe my bar is a little too high, but I'm like, "Okay, at what point are we actually empowering these folks who have been historically disenfranchised and under-represented in these spaces with actual power and, like, authority, so that they can actually, to your point, have the space and the breadth at the table to speak and actually actualize something?"Michelle: Exactly. And I think to your point, organizations are just simply not seeing inclusion as the right thing to do anymore. It just makes all the sense in the world, especially when you're talking about creating a culture of equity and empowerment where every voice counts and all of those kinds of things. This is the action that's behind all of that.Zach: Absolutely. And speaking of action, this year marks the 50th anniversary of Pride, and our workplaces are increasingly diverse, and in that diversity, trans individuals are working in the corporate space at larger numbers than ever before, along with black and brown professionals and, of course, intersect--we can't ignore the reality of intersectionality, that we have black and brown trans professionals also in the workplace. And so how do you see organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans individuals, particularly trans women of color?Michelle: I believe it all goes back to culture first and for organizations to look at building cultures where every single individual feels included and where they can bring their whole selves to work. Things like the Pride celebration--we had a week-long celebration here in New York, which was amazing, and I'm still recovering from all of the celebrations--Zach: Yeah! I had some friends out there.Michelle: Exactly. I just think that it's really about focusing on the individual, their needs and wants and desires, and a lot of us have very different lived experiences outside of the workplace, and a lot of societal burdens, we bring those things into the workplace unfortunately. And so when we talk about inclusion, when we talk about intersectionality and all of those things, none of this works unless the culture is such that it encourages and fosters an environment where authenticity, where being your true, authentic self in ways that invites others to be curious about your lived experience, all of this helps an individual to be a lot more innovative, productive. They will, by nature, feel included. I just think that all of this resonates, and all of this will ensure that, you know, individuals, they will feel truly valued for their differences and to be--and feel free to be exactly who they are, that they're not just there to check a box and that they're empowered to contribute in many ways. So I just think that the underpin of all of this is around culture. It's around innovation mindset. It's about the appreciation of the differences that we all bring to the table and the understanding and awareness that we all don't experience the world, our workplaces, in the same way, and that's what intersectionality is all about.Zach: 100%. You're spot on, Michelle. It's interesting, because what your point reminds me of--we just had a conversation with Tamara, the MD out of Austin--Michelle: Oh, Tamara Fields? Yes.Zach: That's right, Tamara Fields.Michelle: [?] a friend of mine, yes.Zach: Yes, and we were talking to Tamara about the reality of emotional labor. Like, there's a level of emotional labor involved in just existing as a non-white person in a majority-white space, right? So, you know, you see something in the news--like, because we were talking about seeing whatever atrocity you want to choose from--and not to sound flippant or dismissive, but if you're looking at the border crisis or you're looking at a police shooting or whatever the case may be, absorbing that type of content and then coming into a space that is uniquely alien to you can be exhausting. And to your whole point around, like, culture, what I'm reading--and I'm not saying you're saying this. What I read that as is that organizations will--organizational culture will change as the majority allows it to change, right? Meaning that if the majority of a space are adaptive to a particular culture, then the organization will shift, but if there is collective push-back against whatever the initiative may be, then things will slow down, right? And I think we see that, not just at a macro level--or at a micro level in our working perspective, but we also see it, like--we've seen it in the history of America, and so I think that really leads me to ask, like, when you think about--when you talk about culture and culture shifting, what advice or--what are things that you've seen executives do, organizational executives do, to facilitate cultural change for more inclusive workplaces?Michelle: Well, I think there are several things that leaders must do, the first of which is they have to make I&D, inclusion and diversity, a priority. There needs to be established diversity objectives and priorities, equal pay, advancement goals. Like, all of that needs to be established in order to shift the culture to the desired state. The second thing I would say is making leaders accountable, holding individuals' feet to the fire, and we have to track progress and really have some tangible consequences where if a leader does not--is not on board, then there needs to be some sort of--and maybe it's not a consequence. Maybe that is a strong word, but there needs to be some accountability in terms of ensuring that diversity and inclusion is priority #1 if we are to create the ideal culture that we're talking about here. I also think encouraging risk taking and ensuring that employees know that they have the freedom to experiment, to ideate, to innovate, and that's what helps us all learn and grow as professionals. So I just think all of these things will help us get to that ideal state and also create a culture--you talked about the freedom to fail. I think all of this helps in that regard.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right. So, you know, earlier this season we had Chris Moreland. Chris Moreland is the chief inclusion officer at Vizient, and he was on the show. He talked a bit about covering and the actions that non-majority folks in the corporate space participate in to feel safe. I think the concept of covering--I know that you're fairly, if not deeply, familiar with it, as it's been--it's a fairly established concept. We see it in a lot of whitepapers from McKinsey to Deloitte. I believe Accenture's even talked about the concept of covering within the topic of D*I or I&D. What are some of the key covering activities you believe non-majority members commit in the workplace?Michelle: Let's see--okay, so say that again. So what are some of the--Zach: What are some of the key covering activities--what are some of the key ways that you see black and brown folks covering themselves in the workplace?Michelle: Oh. I would say things like not being active or involved in workplace activities like employee resource groups and things that can be perceived as polarizing. Sometimes people of color tend to opt out of things that might look or--at least from their perception--might look [like it's] nonsensical. So for example, I'm sure you're familiar with the employee resource groups or business resource groups depending upon which company you work for, and I've had individuals not engaged because they're like, "I don't need to be a part of that. I would much rather spend my time being part of the majority population." So that's a form of covering. I've worked with Hispanic colleagues who will change their name so that it's more Anglo-Saxon-sounding versus Latino-sounding. So for example, I worked with a gentleman named Juan Guzman, and he changed his name to John Guzman, because in his view it sounded less ethnic. That's a form of covering. So, you know, the list can go on and on, but I just think that when people cover--I don't think it serves anyone well. I don't believe in pretending. I don't believe in being something that you're not. You are who you are. Be proud of who you are. We are all individuals that have a gift and talent to bring to the table, regardless of what youre last name is, regardless of if you're wearing natural hair, regardless of if you are--if you have a thick accent and you're trying to get rid of that. I just think that the more in which these environments that we're working in are receptive and appreciative of the differences that we all bring, the better off we all are and the more productive we will be.Zach: No, absolutely. I love it, I love it. And it's interesting too because I think--so I was having a conversation with--I was having a conversation, just about some strategy pieces, with a colleague, and we were talking about "How do you determine, like, the members of your D&I space?" And the conversation was around "Well, we've got to make sure they actually go to events, right? They need to go to events." And I was like--and I was trying to explain to them. I said, "Look, I would not boot people out of a group, of an ERG or whatever you call it, right, in your respective organization--I would not boot them out of something because they don't physically attend an event." I said, "Some folks genuinely don't feel safe," right?Michelle: Right. That's true. And sometimes we just have to meet people where they are, right? Because everyone is not going to be on the I&D train, majority or not. So I just think sometimes you have to meet people where they are, explain to them what the benefits are of being part of these what I think are extremely beneficial infrastructures and organizations. It's support systems. It's infrastructures. It's, you know, an informal network of individuals who look like you, and you can talk about things that are unique and specific to your lived experience. So I think the more of which we can educate the non-majority members who don't feel safe being a part of these infrastructures--we just need to continue to work on them, but some people are not gonna get on board. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone is not going to be on the I&D train.Zach: No, 100%, and, like, I think the thing is--like, my point is I've been to some--so even when I worked at Accenture, right, like, there were happy hours and things, and the events--the events were great and people showed up and things like that, but I didn't always just--maybe I had a long day, maybe I felt like it was gonna be something else I was gonna have to kind of perform at. Maybe I was just nervous. Who knows whatever reason? That doesn't mean that I didn't want to be included in the group. It's just that that is not, at that point in time, something I felt like I had the emotional bandwidth to engage in. That doesn't mean that I might still not want to talk to somebody in that group or read whatever emails y'all send out. I just--it's different, and I think it's that--I think it's really considering that--especially when you have folks who are not black or brown or whatever that, you know, depending on that diversity dimension, overseeing the group. Like, sometimes there can just be some gaps because you just have genuine blind spots, right? And just understanding, like, "Hey, this is a different space," right? You know, this is not a technology implementation where you're coming to learn about the project or coming to learn about how this software, this SAP implementation, impacts your job. This is a space that's really meant to foster empathy, authenticity, and trust, and that's a different--to me a different level of measurement, right? And you can't just be so, you know, binary with it.Michelle: Yep, fully agree.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so let's do this. Now, you already kinda--you already kinda let a little bit of the dip on the chip, but can we talk about your book Climb? I'd love to hear about the inspiration behind it and why it should be something that professionals of color--and just really anybody, frankly--should have on their reading list.Michelle: Absolutely. So the inspiration behind the book was--I've always had the intention at some point in time in my career to write a book, and it wasn't until I was at Newark Airport in the United Airlines club lounge and a young woman walked up to me and she said, "Are you Michelle Gadsden-Williams?" And I said yes, and she said, "We used to work together many years ago at Novartis, and I've followed your career and all of the wonderful things that you've done. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book like Sheryl Sandberg or Carly Fiorina or Carla Harris at Morgan Stanley?" And I said, "Yes, but I just didn't have the time to do it." And she said, "You know, you should really make the time to do it, because you have an exceptional story to tell." So it wasn't until that young woman gave me that nugget, that idea to really take the time to do it, that's when I really thought seriously about putting pen to paper and telling my story. And so the act of climbing has been defined as the act of rising, to ascend, to go upward with gradual or continuous progress, and it's a term that I've used to describe my career over the years as a woman, as a woman of color, and as a diversity practitioner, and as you and I were talking about earlier, there's some individuals who have an easy go of it and can take the proverbial elevator up to the C-Suite, and then others not so much. They have to take the stairs with a backpack and no air conditioning. There's no smooth ride to the top for any of us, and so no matter how you ascend there is a journey that we each experience which, you know, ebbs and flows and it twists and turns, but with every step you get that much closer to achieving your highest aspiration, your North Star, whatever that might be. So my book Climb speaks volumes about my professional journey, and one of the things that I'm extremely passionate about--and this hasn't changed over the years--is helping people of color to maximize their full potential in corporate America, no matter where they are, no matter what profession or industry they're in or wherever they're employed. I've used myself as the subject, the protagonist, to candidly describe my jorney, and that would be the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else in-between. And what I wanted to do was to focus on tackling some of today's most pressing workplace issues that people of color typically run into, but more importantly I wanted to offer some pragmatic solutions. So that's why I decided to write the book. It's my version of "Lean In" through my lens, the lens of a woman of color.Zach: I love that. So you talked about some of the challenges--and again, I'm not asking you to give the sauce away for free, right, but when you talk about some of the most common challenges that you're seeing black and brown folks face in the workplace, like, can you give us an example of one of those challenges?Michelle: Oh, sure. You know, working twice--being twice as smart, twice as good, but getting half as far. You know, that's the old adage that most of us, at least those of us of color, we've heard that growing up in our households. You know, this is not, you know, just jargon that we hear on television. It's our lived reality. And so, you know, the bar is simply at a higher level for those of us of color, and most of us know that.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, you're absolutely right.Michelle: Exactly, and most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: Hold on. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Michelle: Most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: We gotta break that down. Unpack that.Michelle: We can have mentors all day long, people to show us the lay of the land and how to navigate and all of those things. We don't need that. We have a lot of that. We have plenty of that. We need individuals who are going to have a seat at the table, who are gonna be our advocates and champions and our, you know, sports agents sitting at that table, negotiating for us, putting our names up for promotion and for those stretch assignments where it counts. That's what we need.Zach: That is--that is so true. I've never heard it framed that way, but you're 100% right, because frankly I do believe--and in my work experience this has been the case, right? So this was the case when I was at Accenture. It was the case when I went to Capgemini as well and as I've progressed onto my current firm. There are black and brown folks around me--there are minorities around me who would show me how to do something, right, or give me the real from time to time. I was blessed with that, but what I didn't always have--and I had it more than others, to be clear. ['Cause] I have gotten promoted. Like, I've been able to progress in my career a few times, but the people fighting for me, right, the people who are really advocating for me in the same way or just even in a percentage of the way that they may advocate for someone who doesn't look like me who's doing half as much as I'm doing, right? And that's just a really good point. And it's so interesting, because when I talk to--when I talk to black and brown folks, particularly black women, the conversation often comes with a point of like, "Look, I'm working this hard, and I'm doing--I'm going above and beyond every day, and the response when I'm doing all this work is "Well, that's what you're supposed to do," but then if someone who doesn't look like me is doing, like, half of that--" To the point you talked about earlier, the old adage, which is based on history and reality. They do half of what I'm doing. They're getting their praises sung from the highest rafters, right?Michelle: Exactly. And so I think most of us who have been working in corporate spaces and places, we just understand that there's just more scrutiny on our performance, and a lot of this can lead to, you know, just lower performance, you know? Our self-esteem goes down. You know, lower ratings, lower wages, and sometimes job loss, because you're just not happy. So I just say all of this to say that yeah, the bar is simply at a different level for mostly women, but moreover [more] people of color.Zach: And you know what? So that last little point of distinction you made--and I promise I'm not trying to keep you forever, but it reminds me about the fact that you also--in the book you talk about intersectionality, and I feel like that point you just made just now was kind of an example of that. Could you unpack why you broke that out and you said "women," then you paused and you said, "Well, people of color."? Like, what was the--what caused that pause?Michelle: Well, that was just in my research for the book. Women and/or people of color, we do have similar challenges. Not quite the same, and this intersectionality that we're talking about--and this is such a topic that I have a lot of passion around, you know? I was just having a conversation with a majority female colleague of mine yesterday who just happens to be a peer, and she said to me, you know, "Michelle, we as women, we have the same challenges and we have the same barriers, don't you think?" And I had to pause for a second, and I looked at her--and I can't play poker, so I probably gave her, you know, a "Are you crazy?" kind of look. You know, as a woman and as a woman of color, my lived experience is vastly different than yours. So basically [what I said] to her is that, you know, "When I stand in my drive-way in Somerset County, New Jersey--that's not diverse at all and one of the most affluent counties in the state--but I'm standing in my drive-way and I'm holding my neighbor's child, who happens to be of the majority population, and the FedEx guy pulls up and wants to deliver a package to my home, that he automatically assumes that I'm the help and that she owns the house." You know, how often does that happen to you, colleague? How often is it when I walk into an elevator that the purse clutch scenario happens? And it happens to men of color too. So I could break it down for you in a lot of different ways, but, you know, my lived experience as a woman and as a woman of color, there's the double bind. So it's an interesting dichotomy, but it's real.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] It is an interesting dichotomy, but it is real. Absolutely, and that's why I had to give you the Flex bomb, 'cause you're dropping straight facts. [both laugh] Okay. So look, this has been a great conversation. I'm honored and just very excited about the fact that you're here and that you joined us today. Before we go, any parting words or shout-outs?Michelle: Oh. This has been a terrific conversation, so I thank you for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. Any parting words? You know, one of the things that my father would say to my two sisters and I growing up is, you know, "You are not here on this earth to take up space. You're here to make a difference, and it's up to you to determine what that difference is. All that I've given you is the tools, the education, and the rest is up to you." So all I will say to your listeners is you have to figure out what your passion is, what your purpose is, and determining how you plan to exert your power. You know, what are some of the kinds of things that give you fulfillment? You know, what feels natural to you? What qualities or attributes do you enjoy expressing to the world? And then just go for it. Anything is possible. Anything is. We just need sponsors, mentors, and others, other allies, who are gonna help us get to that next level. And if there's anyone out there who thinks that they can do it alone, I believe that they're sadly mistaken.Zach: And that's absolutely right, 'cause if you think--if you really think that in this space, as a black or brown person, that you're gonna navigate these historically-white spaces by yourself? Hey, I'm looking at you--Michelle: Exactly. I mean, we're working in institutions that weren't historically built for us.Zach: Absolutely.Michelle: We were not welcome, so therefore we have to be twice as good, twice as smart, Ivy League-educated or whatever the case is. We know that we need to do alllll the extras in order to get to where we want to be.Zach: No doubt. And I was just trying to say that if you really think you can do it by yourself, I'm looking at you like [haha sfx].Michelle: Exactly. Exactly.Zach: Well, Michelle, I just want to thank you again, you know? At some point in the episode we typically drop some Jamaican air horns, because--[Michelle laughs, Zach laughs] Out of thanks or out of exuberance, and I'm just gonna say I'm gonna drop these out of thankful exuberance right here... [air horns sfx] because this has been a dope, dope episode, and I look forward to having you back. Thank you so much.Michelle: Absolutely. I look forward to coming back and wishing you all of the success in the world.Zach: Thank you. Peace.Michelle: Peace.

Zach sits down with Nigel Stephens, the director of government relations for Accenture Federal Services, to discuss the mixing of politics and work. Nigel breaks down the real definitions of economics and politics and details his role as the primary liaison with members of Congress and policy makers for AFS.Connect with SCORE on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest, iTunesSearch open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture Federal Services on the following platforms: LinkedIn, TwitterConnect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: Nigel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Nigel: I am doing well. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate the invitation.Zach: I appreciate you being here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Nigel: Well, I'm a bit of a local in the Washington, D.C. area. I was actually born in Jamaica, but my family came here in the '80s. I grew up in Maryland and still reside in Maryland. I'm in Prince George’s County. I've been involved in political campaigns since I was a child. My parents were very active in the community. My mother was a teacher at Montgomery College for decades, and my dad was an entrepreneur. He was an accountant and ran his business out of our basement for a number of years. So he was very active in the community, and that was just a part of my upbringing. So part of this discussion about being in government relations, I've been in government or government relations as a professional for over 20 years.Zach: Wow.Nigel: Yeah, and I--you know, I love politics, and I love the role of government as it plays a role in everyone's life. The negotiations--there's an old saying--the negotiations of and maneuvering of politics dictates almost every aspect of your life, whether you like it or not, from the safety and quality of the food you eat and the air you breathe to the education you receive, to whether or not your favorite sports team gets the stadium or not, you know? Negotiations in politics controls all of that. It determines all of that. When I was a senior in high school, I was blessed enough to get an internship with Senator Ted Kennedy from Massachusetts, the Lion of the Senate, and it was there that I really got an education and learned the real definition of the terms "economics" and "politics," right? Economics is the distribution of scarce resources, and politics is simply the method by which we determine who gets what, when, and how. So once learning that I fell in love with the place, and I have never left Capitol Hill since. I've worked in it, on it, or related to it every way I possibly could since that time.Zach: And you know what? It's that profile, Nigel, why we're so excited to talk to you today, 'cause as you know, we're talking about politics at work, and I'm excited to talk to you today because in a large sense, I mean, really, politics is your work. Can you talk a little bit about your role as Accenture's primary liaison with members of Congress and policy makers? Like, what does that--what does that mean?Nigel: For me, I lead Accenture Federal Services' government relations team. So I am an advocate for all of the work that we do for the federal government as a client. I really like that, 'cause it's my way of giving back while still having a professional career. I mean, when I'm doing--when I'm having conversations with new joiners, I really try to get them to keep things in perspective of what they do, whether you're a technologist, you're a coder, you're a strategist, whatever it is. What is the big picture of what you're doing? I mean, we provide services to clients and help individuals get their student loans processed. Healthcare. You know, all of those types of meaningful things that make a real difference in real people's lives, and my direct role in government relations really falls into four categories. Strategic advisor, facilitator, translator, and educator. So I provide the strategic advice based on what's happening with authorizations and appropriations and funding of programs to my business team so they can provide better service to their clients. A facilitator to try to promote communication and coordination between the private sector and industry and the government. As a translator, I--so I'm not a lawyer. I went to business school, so I was trained in--I went and got an MBA, so I was trained in that. Communicating and translating the thoughts and intents of business to the government, to legislators, and vice versa, and then finally is educator. There's a lot of--any given day, members and their staff are dealing with hundreds of different issues, and they can't be subject matter experts in every single one. So part of my responsibility--I think the largest part of my responsibility is really serving as an educator to those on the Hill about what the art of the possible is, about what's happening in the private sector, about what industry is doing, about what new things are happening in technology and how that innovation can really help them meet their real core goal, which is providing service to citizens.Zach: Nigel, now, you know what I love? Is that you out here just--you casually, casually dropping bombs, right? Right? Like, I got to give you the [Flex bomb sfx]. I got to give you the Flex bomb. It's crazy. I mean, my goodness gracious. Okay, that's dope.Nigel: Did you for real just drop the Funkmaster Flex bomb?Zach: I did. I got a whole soundboard over here, man. I be like [haha sfx], you know? Nigel: [?] You're doing it.Zach: I got all kinds of stuff over here, man, but look, I really appreciate the answer. It leads me to the next question. Now, has there ever been a situation where your own life experience has shaped how you approach a policy discussion? Like, how do you decide when and where you, you know, flex and let people know, "Hey, actually, I know what I'm talking about," versus where you decide to kind of lean back and let things play a little bit.Nigel: Take it to a bigger picture. It's not so much on a specific policy area, but for my life experience, I think the lesson would be to be vigilant about building your skills and have confidence in your abilities. When I was starting out my career, there were your veteran rock star African-American lobbyists, right? Your Vernon Jordans. Your Toni Cook Bushs. Your Ben Johnsons. They were another upper echelon of influence, but there weren't that many at just the general corporate level, right? Even more, there wasn't really a clear path to where I wanted to go, which is at that corporate level. So I had to really build a diverse set of skills. You know, whether it be political management, financial management, an MBA, where do I get the diverse skills that I'm going to need to piece together to be effective in the role that I want to get to, and then have confidence that I'm building the capabilities to bring my best self to the table? Now, applying that to the policy realm, you know, Accenture's about technology and innovation, right? How is tech being used and how can it be leveraged in the federal government, and how can those best practices in the commercial sector be applied in the federal government to help them bring those services to citizens more effectively? And then even more, in our current atmosphere, at a cheaper price. Now, in government they may not always see the vision, right? They may not be on the tip of the spear of innovation, and unfortunately sometimes inertia and, you know, "We've always done it this way," "This is the safest way of doing it," can be the worst enemy to progress, regardless of how much that progress is needed or regardless of the benefits that could occur, right? But we have to be vigilant as policy makers and as a company trying to provide services to the policy makers. You've got to be vigilant about building those skills and capabilities. You know, what's that new--is it AI? Automation? Machine learning? Is it migrating things to the cloud? Is it ERP systems? What are those innovative things that are happening in the commercial sector? Building those skills and capabilities, and then also being confident in that what we're offering to the client is in the best interest of the client.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, again, it's almost like--it's almost like, you know, you've been doing this for two decades, Nigel. [both laugh] I would imagine that your role demands a certain level of intellectual [?]. You have to know what you're talking about when you're coming in and you're advocating for the services that Accenture provides, but also at the same time a certain level of emotional and social intelligence in actually--in how you actually engage those topics with your audience. Can you talk a little bit about the role that emotional and social intelligence play practically in your role day-to-day?Nigel: Yeah. There's always the requirement of learning, lifelong learning. You've got to be committed to it, right? I was telling some colleagues the other day that my kitchen table is covered with books that I never felt my kitchen table would be covered with, about AI and coding and automation and those kinds of things, because I have to really understand the subject matter even though we have subject matter experts that will be exponentially smarter in these things than I ever will be, right? They live it, but for me with the emotional and the social intelligence, you know, as a lobbyist, I always try to keep in mind that elected officials and their staff are always primarily focused on outcomes. They're always focused on meeting the needs of the real people that they represent, right? We may not agree on all of the politics, we may not agree on all of the policy, but I have to keep in mind that your whole purpose of being there, working these long hours for the pay that you get, is because you care about the constituents that you're representing and you're really trying to make a difference for them. So keeping that awareness is, you know, essentially keeping things in perspective, even during the most heated policy debate, right? And then essentially a part of my job is--the main requirement is to pay attention to the nuances of government, you know, and the people in the government, and you can't fake that, right? It's not what you necessarily see on television every day, right? That's the upfront, you know, constant barrage of social media and the 24-hour news cycle. There's a lot of nuance [in] those individuals, what they're working on, what they're passionate about, and how you're gonna play a role in all of that, and you really have to pay attention to that.Zach: Expand a little bit about that. When you say, like, the upfront, like, what do you mean by that?Nigel: Well, there's the stuff that you--that professionals report on, right? That's the high-level news that you see, but at any given time when I walk into an office, a member or a staffer is dealing with a number of different personal and professional issues. You have to look at a staffer--when I was on the House side I was working for a congressman from Maryland, Congressman Albert Wynn. My portfolio included environment, health care, education, transportation, small business, and telecommunications, and I was also the staffer for the Minority Business Task Force for the Congressional Black Caucus. Now, at any given time, I was dealing with issues from, you know, building roads on one side, and then that meeting would end, and I would quickly have to transfer over to satellite communication technology, right? That discussion--you have to keep in mind that these are human beings that are working long hours and that their minds are focused on all of these different things, so having that type of--that emotional intelligence for the challenge that they're facing every single day allows you to approach the conversation in a certain way so it's the most effective use of their time and yours and you can actually make a difference.Zach: Nigel, you're a political relationship subject matter expert, so you know the difference between good and bad, quote unquote, politics, right? Can you give us some examples? And I kind of want to--I want to really take your insight and experience in Capitol Hill and talk about office politics a little bit, 'cause I know you've seen it. You've seen it all, right? 'Cause you don't just--you don't just live in Capitol Hill, you also have to go into the office, you have to--you know what I'm saying? Like, you flex between a variety of different environments, right? So can you give us some examples of, like, tacky office politics and things that all employees, but especially employees of color, should avoid?Nigel: Okay. Well, there's an old adage in government relations and lobbying that "there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies, only permanent interests." And instead of "enemies," "permanent opponents, only permanent interests." And you also have to keep in mind "What is your permanent interest, and does getting involved in petty office politics help your movement towards your interest, or is it creating unnecessary risk?" Right? The shorter version of that is "Keep your eyes on the prize." I would strongly recommend--my personal opinion is don't get involved with that, office politics, because the deck chairs are always gonna shift, right? The only consistent thing in life and in business is change, so there are always gonna be people spending a disproportionate amount of their time worrying about those types of things. I try my best to avoid it. I recommend that people try their best to avoid it. Maintain positive and, even more so, positive and strategic relationships, and focus on delivering your best every single day. You do that and then, you know, the other stuff will play itself out, and often times, you know, you're in a steady state, you will find that you will actually progress moving forward in a straight line, in a linear fashion, versus, you know, losing your focus and getting engaged in other things that aren't gonna help you.Zach: So let's shift gears a little bit. You know, you serve on the board of directors of SCORE, a non-profit organization and national partner to the U.S. Small Business Administration dedicated to entrepreneur education and the formation, growth, and success of small business nationwide. What was your reason for engaging in this space? And at the board level, right? There's plenty of things that you could be doing, Nigel, with your time and with your various talents. What was it about this space that got your attention and your passion? Nigel: Well, I have a long history with small business. As I mentioned before, you know, my dad ran his business out of our basement for years, right? So I've seen--I've got a number of family members that are entrepreneurs and small business owners, and so I've witnessed first-hand the impact small businesses have, not only on a household but on a community in general, right? The positive impact that that can have. I said before, when I was on the Hill, on the House side, the first time I was the staffer for the Minority Business Task Force for the Congressional Black Caucus. When I sent to the Senate to work for Senator Carey on the Senate Small Business Committee, you know, I was working on policy issues that would promote and advance the cause of small businesses and entrepreneurs, and SCORE was one of those organizations that I worked very closely with as a Hill staffer. And then when I got the opportunity to join the board I jumped at it. I mean, these organizations--this is an organization of 11,000 volunteers that are former executives. So these are retired corporate executives and former entrepreneurs themselves who are willing to share their wisdom FOR FREE. Let's say that again. FOR FREE.Zach: For free.Nigel: For free. So if anyone is listening, and you're running a business now or you're interested in starting a business and being an entrepreneur, I strongly encourage you to reach out to SCORE. [straight up sfx] I strongly encourage it. It is a wonderful opportunity. But at the board level, I think I get an opportunity to really provide strategic advice and guide the organization in a way that I can make a difference. The decisions I'm making now and the input that I'm providing now is gonna lead the organization into the future 10, 20 years from now, right? So what are they doing with regards to investments in the organization and building it out, and what are they doing with regards to reaching out to diverse communities and reaching out to the new generation of entrepreneurs, which may be your millennial-aged individuals. What does that mean? What does that mean for women and minorities who are disproportionately creating new businesses faster than other communities? Like, how are we serving all of those communities in such a way that it's really making a difference? And these guys are serving everyone from Mom and Pop sandwich shops all the way up to your innovative technology companies. So how can we help--how can I help play a role in that organization doing its best to reach all communities?Zach: Well, that's incredible. You know, what I think is really powerful about you being in that position is, as we know, there are systemic and structural challenges that come with economic self-empowerment and advancement and really participating on these stages--and when I say we I mean, like, black and brown folks in these spaces--so you having that insight and giving your point of view in how--not just your point of view, but your strategic wisdom I believe is very much so invaluable, so that's powerful. Because a lot of this stuff, like, we don't really know--a lot of us don't really know where to start, right? It's not--it isn't, you know, your grandfather's space anymore, you know? It's more complex. There are different hurdles to jump and spaces to navigate. So that's really incredible. This has been an amazing conversation. Before we let you go--Nigel: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, nah. Hey, I appreciate you. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Nigel: Well, I just want to thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the invitation, and I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. It's really made me think about, you know, the context of what I do and what--there are a number of others in the Washington, D.C. metro area that are making a real difference in the lives of individuals and really in what governments are doing and what industry is doing and what our overall community is doing. So I thank you for the platform. I really appreciate the invitation, and I look forward to having many more conversations.Zach: I look forward to it too, Nigel. Man, look, we definitely consider you a friend of the show. We can't wait to have you back. Now, look, Nigel, I don't know how much of the Living Corporate podcast you've listened to, but every now and then we've got to drop some air horns, okay? So I gotta put 'em in here right... here. [air horns sfx]Nigel: There we go.Zach: I'm saying. I just got to it. And I hope it's not culturally insensitive. I recognize [you/your family are] from Jamaica. I love air horns.Nigel: I love it.Zach: All right, cool. [laughs]Nigel: I love it. [laughs]Zach: Well, all right. Nigel, 'til next time, we'll catch up, man. I appreciate you. Nigel: Thank you very much. Have a great day.Zach: Peace.