Podcasts about ken you

Patrick responds to an email about removing life support Ken - You mentioned that a priest should wear a stole during confession. Is a confession valid if they do not? (06:51) What are the Valid forms of matter for the sacraments? (09:59) Mike - My sister is fallen away Catholic. Is there an Audio Book you could recommend for her to listen to? She cites Luke 9: 49-50 this as a source that Jesus didn't care what type of Christian you were. How do I respond? (15:42) Grace – Is there something called a “Dry Mass?” Mark - Can someone go to mass twice a day on a regular basis to receive Jesus twice? (25:59) Patrick - I am struggling with sin and have been trying to go to confession weekly. Last week I felt really distant but after confession I felt like it pulled me back. (27:44) Roger - I have only made one confession in my 40 years of being a Catholic. Should I set up a time to have confession with a priest or just go at the normal time and stand in line? (32:54) Teresa - Is there a limit to how many people can be announced for the mass intentions? (38:47) Anna - Are spouses living in sin if their marriage should be annulled? (43:05) Dan - How should I read the Bible? (46:40)

Russ Crosson is the former president and CEO, and current chief mission officer of the financial advising firm Blue Trust. For over 40 years, Russ has helped individuals and families to grow in generosity and wisely steward what God has entrusted to them. Ken Boa is a well-known author and theologian, and founder of Reflections Ministries. Ken has an inspiring personal testimony and powerful biblical insights on the generous life.  Together, they are coauthors of the book Leverage which is packed with practical wisdom and frameworks for understanding our calling and invitation into the generous life. In the book, Ken lays out many spiritual and foundational principles to help people think more deeply and biblically about generosity. Along with each concept, Russ outlines practical ways to put principles into practice. You don't want to miss out on all the wisdom they had to share.   Major Topics Include: The story of the book's inception How generosity breaks the power of money Six reasons for giving How to shift into a generosity mindset The concept of reverse compounding  Deciding where and how much to give Practical ways to give anonymously Giving from assets  Thinking through wealth transfer to the next generation QUOTES TO REMEMBER Russ: “Stewardship is the use of God-given resources to accomplish God-given goals.” Ken: “You can always be more generous than you think.” Ken: “[In the parables,] the ones who were condemned were the ones who failed to take a risk because obedience requires risk-taking.” Russ: “Do you want to hear ‘well done' or just ‘you may come in'?” Ken: “God never tells us to give up something without giving us something better.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW Leverage: Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain by Kenneth Boa and Russ Crosson Ronald Blue and Co., CPA (see our interview with founder, Ron Blue) Blue Trust (see our interview with founder, Ron Blue) National Christian Foundation (see our interview with President Emeritus, David Wills) Kingdom Advisors (see our interview with founder, Ron Blue) The Finish Line Community Facebook Group The Finish Line Community LinkedIn Group BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Luke 16:1-13 | The Parable of the Unrighteous Steward   1 Timothy 6:17-19 | Be Rich in Good Works   As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.   Ephesians 2:8-9 | The Gift of God For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! If you have a thought about something you heard, or a story to share, please reach out! You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. You can also contact us directly from our contact page. If you want to engage with the Finish Line Community, check out our groups on Facebookand LinkedIn.

Patrick responds to an email about removing life support (00:31) Ken - You mentioned that a priest should wear a stole during confession. Is a confession valid if they do not? (06:47) What are the Valid forms of matter for the sacraments? (08:36) Mike - My sister is fallen away Catholic. Is there an Audio Book you could recommend for her to listen to? She cites Luke 9: 49-50 this as a source that Jesus didn't care what type of Christian you were. How do I respond? (15:42) Grace – Is there something called a “Dry Mass?” (21:26) Mark - Can someone go to mass twice a day on a regular basis to receive Jesus twice? (25:01) Patrick - I am struggling with sin and have been trying to go to confession weekly. Last week I felt really distant but after confession I felt like it pulled me back. (27:40) Roger - I have only made one confession in my 40 years of being a Catholic. Should I set up a time to have confession with a priest or just go at the normal time and stand in line? (32:47) Teresa - Is there a limit to how many people can be announced for the mass intentions? (38:47) Anna - Are spouses living in sin if their marriage should be annulled? (43:02) Dan - How should I read the Bible? (46:41)

Today's guest is Ken Middleton If you're a regular listener then you'll already know Ken and many of you have read his fabulous book which is called Bamboozled – How Alcohol Makes Fools of us all!" Kenis an interesting case because he didn't embark on this journey because he was worried about his alcohol dependence… he did it because he realised that alcohol was preventing him from reaching his potential As he says “even if alcohol doesn't destroy you it will prevent you from reaching your potential” How true! This is my actually my third podcast episode with Ken – You can listen to the other podcast episodes here and here   In this episode:- Ken started his sobriety journey by educating himself on the scientific effects of alcohol. There is such power in knowledge – the more we understand about the damage alcohol does the less we feel like drinking it! His drinking career was pretty typical – starting at college where he used it to fit in and socialize. His drinking then intensified during his sales career It was when he decided to become an entrepreneur that Ken realized the detrimental impact of alcohol on his productivity. He decided to take a 90-day break from drinking with his wife, to his surprise this period of sobriety led to a significant increase in his productivity and income. Two weeks into his sobriety, Ken read Annie Grace's "This Naked Mind" which changed his perspective on alcohol. This book helped him to recognize the spectrum of alcohol's effects, We agreed that society stigmatises the alcoholic to such an extent that we imagine an alcoholic to be a homeless man in the park – this gives us a reason to decide we are not “that bad” so we can carry on drinking! This suits the alcohol industry very well of course! Inspired by his journey, Ken wrote "Bamboozled" to share his experiences and educate others on the hidden dangers of alcohol. One of the things I love about his book is the stories he includes - alcohol parables like "Scott and Mitchell," illustrating how drinking choices in college can impact future success. Ken emphasizes the cognitive and emotional impairment caused by alcohol, affecting decision-making, learning, and long-term success – of course its especially harmful for young brains which are still developing Ken encourages his readers to consider the long-term effects on their lives and potential. He believes in running towards personal growth rather than away from alcohol, recognizing the multitude of benefits gained through sobriety.  I love this approach and see our members getting more and more motivated as the benefits of sobriety keep coming! Societal views on drinking are changing, with more and more young people abstaining - For example the latest stats from the UK tell us that 39% of 18-24 people just don't drink Another of Kens alcohol parables focuses on Sarah and Susan Susan's excessive drinking hinders her career growth, while Sarah's more moderate approach leads to promotion. Hollywood's portrayal of alcohol influences societal perceptions and behaviors – Ken has a whole chapter on this and its fascinating If you haven't yet read Bamboozled then you're missing out – it's a really great read, you can buy it from Amazon or you can get it directly from Ken on TheBamboozledBook.com Do check out his 90 day challenge that he mentioned – he's set up a website for that which is called https://www.dry90.com/ - I'll put the links in the shownotes You can also follow Ken on Instagram @kenmmiddleton and of course his regular newsletter is called Alcohol is Not Your Friend. More Info   Episode Sponsor This episode is sponsored by the Tribe Sober Membership Program.  If you want to change your relationship with alcohol then sign up today Read more about our program and subscribe HERE Help us to Spread the Word! We made this podcast so that we can reach more people who need our help.  Please subscribe and share. If you enjoyed the podcast, then please leave us a 5-star review on Apple podcasts. Take a screenshot of your review, and DM it to Tribe Sober's Instagram page – see PS below for instructions. We'll send you something special to say thank you! We release a podcast episode every Saturday morning. You can follow Tribe Sober on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You can join our private Facebook group HERE.  

The corporate world is not exactly known for being fair to women. Even with significant progress made in recent decades, the wage gap still has women getting paid 16% less than their male counterparts (substantially worse for women of color), and women are often passed up for promotions or higher-level positions. Remember this exchange from the Barbie movie during Ken's visit to corporate America? Ken: You guys aren't doing patriarchy very well. Corporate Bro: We're actually doing patriarchy very well [lowers voice] Corporate Bro: ... we're just better at hiding it. So when I discovered Sam DeMase through her book A Power Mood, I knew I had to invite her on the podcast. We had a fantastic conversation about the importance of self-advocacy for women in the workplace, and how they make make more strategic moves for career advancement.

Jayson Street — Chief Adversarial Officer at Secure Yeti, a DEF CON Groups Global Ambassador, and a world-class awkward hugger Jayson Street, the dynamic Chief Adversarial Officer at Secure Yeti, has worn many masks throughout his life and career. He was once named a “World-Class Hacker” on the National Geographic series "Breakthrough Cyber-Terror," but he prefers the simpler title of Hacker, Helper, and Human. In this episode, Jayson joins Carlton Fields P.A.'s Jack Clabby and KnowBe4's VP of Remote Publishing Teams Kayley Melton to talk about his journey of self-discovery that led him from being an award-winning janitor at McDonald's to one of the world's most infamous ethical hackers. From his early childhood, Jayson has embraced hacking as a way of life, embodying the spirit of relentless exploration, innovation, and resilience. Like our favorite co-host Kayley, Jayson uncovered a new layer of his identity in his adulthood when he discovered that he is neurodivergent. He dives deep into how this new understanding altered his perception of himself, allowed him to embrace the various “masks” he wears throughout life, and discovered that his unique mind is actually his superpower. He also shares extraordinary stories of how he gained entry into some of the hardest-to-access cyber targets in the world. To start off the show, Jack and Kayley talk about the celebrity that's topping the Hacker Celebrity Hot List as the celeb whose name is used most by cybercriminals when creating online scams. Hint: he's just Ken… You can follow Jayson on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jstreet/ You can follow Jayson on Twitter here: @jaysonstreet You can learn more about Jayson here: https://jaysonestreet.com You can learn more about Secure Yeti here: https://www.secureyeti.com/

In this episode, Dan welcomes back legendary communicator, connector, and executive coach to the PR industry, Ken Jacobs, for his second appearance on the show. Back in January 2021, he and Dan talked about leadership and purpose in the agency world. Now, with the pandemic in the rearview, has widespread indecision and inconsistency around remote work, hybrid work, and RTO (Return to Office) changed the nature of leadership and management? Ken and Dan dig into some of the changes we've seen over the past few years and try to find some answers. Ken walks us through the nuances of building a team in a remote setting and why managers still must be able to build and manage teams effectively. Remote working doesn't seem like it's going away anytime soon, even as some organizations push for a return to more traditional work settings. No matter what organizations are doing, though, the past few years have highlighted the importance of connection and connectedness for effective leadership - and we need a new playbook.  In this episode, you will be able to: Uncover the ever-progressing dynamics of leadership within the context of the PR industry in a fluctuating global environment. Navigate the ins and outs of remote work and running teams virtually in a post-pandemic world. Find the balance between granting autonomy, instilling trust, and avoiding micromanagement in a team-centric setting. Gain insight into the pivotal role of AI and other groundbreaking technologies in reshaping the PR industry. Appreciate why adopting a learning attitude and making learning a lifetime habit stands as a key cornerstone of successful leadership. Notable Quotes: “I think this whole notion of connecting more and wanting to connect more and wanting more time together is partly due to the lockdown and also, they want to spend time with people who are natural connectors.” – (3:17), Ken “Coaching isn't what we do; it's who we are.” – (5:46), Ken “Make your office a magnet, not a mandate.” – (16:00), Ken “It (remote working for PR) can be done. Can it be done better working together? Probably” – (18:58), Ken “Is the team really a team if they're not together?” – (22:24), Dan “Every time you say it's hard for me or I'm not good at, add the word … now.” – (30:30), Ken “You don't have to be a neuroscientist to use the neuroscience.” – (31:40), Ken “When we say I wonder how that would feel, we actually start to feel it.” – (34:21), Ken “We don't realize it but many people who work for us, our followers, have a vision.” – (36:20), Ken “It feels like the need for certain leadership attributes are on steroids.” – (41:05), Ken “You've got to act in a trustworthy manner no matter the consequences.” – (42:23), Ken “When you look at your past be very mindful to not judge yourself too harshly.” – (46:40), Ken “It's really important that you're nurturing and not micromanaging.”  (51:31), Ken “One thing AI cannot do is mimic or replace emotional intelligence and empathy and trust.” – (1:01:13), Dan “This notion of lifetime learning is absolutely critical.” – (1:04:55), Ken About Ken Jacobs Ken Jacobs is the principal of Jacobs Consulting & Executive Coaching, leveraging his expertise for over a decade to bolster agency growth, client relations, and staff performance. A recognized coach and consultant, Ken holds PCC credentials from the International Coach Federation and additional accreditations from iPEC, including CPC, ELI Master Practitioner, and CLDS. His rich experience encompasses collaborations with top-tier communications agencies such as Catalyst, Coyne Public Relations, and M Booth, to name a few. Before founding his firm, Jacobs dedicated 25 years to leadership roles in renowned PR agencies, notably spearheading the award-winning "MMC Masters" training program at Marina Maher Communications. Beyond his consulting, Ken shares insights in his "Taking The Lead" column for PRSA's Strategies and Tactics. An alumnus of Syracuse University's S.I. Newhouse School, he's also an honored member of PRSA, and a Senior Counselor to Prosper Group. Ken Jacobs Links Jacobs Consulting and Executive Coaching Ken Jacobs - Twitter Ken Jacobs - Facebook Ken Jacobs – Linkedin Dan Nestle Links The Dan Nestle Show (libsyn.com) Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn The Dan Nestle Show | Facebook Dan Nestle | Twitter The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:00 - Introduction,  00:01:48 - Connecting with Natural Connectors,  00:06:07 - Coaching During the Pandemic,  00:10:12 - Accelerated Change and Returning to the Office,  00:13:32 - In-Person Energy and Coordination,  00:15:56 - The Importance of Making the Office a Magnet, not a Mandate,  00:16:42 - Challenges of Remote Work and Real Estate,  00:18:30 - The Value of In-Person Collaboration,  00:19:51 - Leadership in a Remote Work Environment,  00:25:34 - Expectations Gap and Hiring Talent,  00:33:02 - The Relief of a Fresh Perspective,  00:34:16 - Customizing Leadership Styles,  00:36:11 - Building Trust and Connection,  00:42:58 - The Challenges of Virtual Leadership,  00:50:40 - The Importance of Nurturing Relationships in a Remote Work Environment,  00:53:19 - Setting Clear Expectations and Deadlines,  00:56:25 - Embracing AI and the Importance of Integration,  01:00:50 - Approaching AI with a Growth Mindset,  01:04:51 - The Importance of Lifetime Learning and Staying Relevant,  01:07:29 - Learning About AI,  01:08:12 - The Future of AI,  01:08:59 - Pivotal Person in Life,  01:10:49 - LinkedIn as the Platform of Choice,  01:14:35 - LinkedIn Fails and Harassment Timestamped summary of this episode, courtesy of Capsho: 00:00:00 - Introduction,  Dan Nestle introduces the podcast episode and welcomes back Ken Jacobs, a former PR agency executive and leadership expert. They discuss the importance of pivotal moments and the role of people in those moments. 00:01:48 - Connecting with Natural Connectors,  Ken Jacobs talks about the desire to connect more with people who are natural connectors and how it transcends age. He emphasizes the importance of helping one another and how the lockdown during the pandemic accelerated the need for connection. 00:06:07 - Coaching During the Pandemic,  Ken Jacobs shares his experience as a coach during the pandemic and how he continued coaching even when clients couldn't pay. He highlights the importance of purpose-driven work and how emotional intelligence and empathy helped people thrive during challenging times. 00:10:12 - Accelerated Change and Returning to the Office,  The conversation shifts to the accelerated change brought on by the pandemic and the impact on work culture. They discuss the mixed approach of remote and in-office work and the need to reevaluate the purpose of going to the office. Ken emphasizes the importance of using in-person time effectively. 00:13:32 - In-Person Energy and Coordination,  Ken and Dan discuss the energy that comes from in-person interactions and the need to find a balance between remote and in-office work. They highlight the importance of coordinating in-person time to brainstorm and collaborate effectively. 00:15:56 - The Importance of Making the Office a Magnet, not a Mandate,  Ken Jacobs emphasizes the need for companies to give employees a reason to come back to the office beyond just basic perks like Taco Tuesday. Making the office a place for collaboration and idea generation is crucial, but it must be done in a way that respects individual preferences and safety concerns. 00:16:42 - Challenges of Remote Work and Real Estate,  Many companies had to downsize their office spaces during the pandemic due to financial constraints. However, finding the right balance of remote work and in-person collaboration remains a challenge. Different industries and organizations have unique needs and must determine what approach works best for them. 00:18:30 - The Value of In-Person Collaboration,  In agencies, where brainstorming and collaboration are vital, being physically present can enhance creativity and energy. While virtual collaboration is possible, the magic often happens when diverse teams come together in person. However, organizations must be mindful of including remote team members to ensure everyone feels connected. 00:19:51 - Leadership in a Remote Work Environment,  Great leaders must be empathetic, good listeners, and understand that it is impossible to please everyone. Balancing the needs and preferences of team members who want to work remotely or in the office requires careful consideration. Dialing up empathy and seeking feedback from employees are essential for effective leadership. 00:25:34 - Expectations Gap and Hiring Talent,  The expectations gap between agencies and employees spread across different locations has grown 00:33:02 - The Relief of a Fresh Perspective,  The conversation explores the feeling of relief and a breath of fresh air that comes with challenging preconceived notions and adopting a learner's mindset in leadership. It emphasizes the importance of self-growth and highlights the motivation that comes from imagining how achieving new perspectives and growth would feel. 00:34:16 - Customizing Leadership Styles,  The discussion delves into the significance of customizing leadership styles for each team member. It emphasizes the importance of understanding their values, vision, and learning styles to create alignment and motivation within the team. Taking the time to think about individual team members before interactions can greatly impact their engagement and fulfillment. 00:36:11 - Building Trust and Connection,  The conversation emphasizes the need for leaders to build trust and connection with their team members. This involves understanding their values, vision, and role in achieving the group's goals. By creating alignment between the organization's values, the leader's values, and the individual team members' values, leaders can foster a sense of belonging and fulfillment in their team. 00:42:58 - The Challenges of Virtual Leadership,  The discussion explores the challenges of building relationships and trust in a virtual work environment. It highlights the need for leaders to demonstrate courage, bravery, and trustworthiness, as well as to act as a source of stability and certainty during uncertain times. The importance of leading with empathy, emotional intelligence, and trust is emphasized, particularly in an unpredictable world. 00:50:40 - The Importance of Nurturing Relationships in a Remote Work Environment,  In a remote work environment, leaders need to be proactive in nurturing relationships to prevent complacency and maintain strong bonds within the team. Building trust and rapport is crucial, and leaders should focus on nurturing rather than micromanaging their employees. 00:53:19 - Setting Clear Expectations and Deadlines,  Leaders should have open and honest conversations with their team members about assignments, deadlines, and expectations. It is important to establish a contract where both parties agree on what success looks like and communicate any challenges or struggles early on. 00:56:25 - Embracing AI and the Importance of Integration,  AI is becoming increasingly important in the PR industry, and leaders should embrace it as a tool to enhance their work rather than fear it. Integration is also crucial, as PR professionals should explore how different channels and platforms can work together to maximize impact. 01:00:50 - Approaching AI with a Growth Mindset,  Instead of approaching AI with fear, leaders should have a growth mindset and view it as an opportunity to learn and improve their practice. AI can automate certain tasks, allowing professionals to focus on higher-value work and think of new ways to contribute. 01:04:51 - The Importance of Lifetime Learning and Staying Relevant,  Staying relevant in any field requires a commitment to lifetime learning. Professionals should continuously seek to expand their knowledge and skills to adapt to changing technologies and industry trends. Relevance is key to 01:07:29 - Learning About AI,  The guest expresses fascination with AI and how it can lead to deep exploration and questioning of what is true. They also express nervousness about being asked about their use of AI in their coaching practice in the future. 01:08:12 - The Future of AI,  The guest speculates about the possibility of speaking with an AI-generated simulacrum of the host in the future. They express their love for having conversations like these and the importance of maintaining a learner's mindset. 01:08:59 - Pivotal Person in Life,  The host expresses gratitude for the guest being a pivotal person in their life and discusses the importance of maintaining a learner's mindset as they move forward. They provide information on how to find the guest on LinkedIn and their website. 01:10:49 - LinkedIn as the Platform of Choice,  The guest discusses their decreased activity on Twitter and their preference for LinkedIn as a platform for professionals to connect. They also mention the annoyance of receiving LinkedIn messages from non-certified coaches. 01:14:35 - LinkedIn Fails and Harassment,  The host and guest discuss the humor in sharing LinkedIn fails and their experiences with fake profiles and spam messages. They acknowledge the entertainment value but also express frustration with the harassment. *Notes were created by humans, with help from Capsho, my preferred AI show notes assistant.

The sales team is a critical part of the success of any business. And hiring, leading, and retaining exceptional salespeople is always a challenge.Ken Trupke, host of The Clarity Advisors Show, recently appeared on the Sales Edge podcast, with Joe Pici to discuss selecting and interviewing candidates, on-boarding, metrics, accountability, and other aspects of building a great sales team.Joe is a master sales trainer and coach, known for teaching his clients how to book more appointments and close more business. He's been a guest on our show before, but this week we're changing things up, putting Ken on the hot seat with Joe asking the questions.Timestamps(01:01): Description of Ken's services(01:54): What to look for in a salesperson(03:59): Attributes and skills that need to be taught(05:37): Keys to the on-boarding process(07:24): Important metrics in the sales process(09:36): Handling accountability in the 21st century(11:27): The remote vs. in-person work debate(18:52): The interview process(22:20): Another note about accountability(24:17): Contacting and connecting with KenEpisode Quotes“I want to make sure you've got that combination of humble, hungry, and smart, and part of the 'hungry' is you're not afraid to pick up the phone.” (Ken)“Either we're going to be accountable to activity that you one hundred percent control, or we're going to be accountable to results.” (Ken)“You've got to make sure you are clear (about) what you are looking for. What are you expecting? People are not mind readers. And where this can start to go sideways early is when you're not clear as a leader with what you expect.” (Ken)“I'm kind of an in-office person because I like the connection that you get. I think you just can't replace when people are together.” (Ken)“The win is in following the process. And that's why I love activity metrics because you can control those and you can remind yourself, ‘I won today because I made my calls, not because I heard yes.' Because you might not hear 'yes'.” (Ken)“We want to hire for the values and then we'll teach the skills because those skills are going change, and what you know today is going to diminish in value.” (Ken)“Once you've agreed and you're accountable to someone for something, you have two choices. And those two choices are do the thing for the person when you said you would or communicate ahead of time.  (Ken)Recommended Reading and ListeningThe Ideal Team Player: How to Recognize and Cultivate the Three Essential Virtues by Patrick M. LencioniSales Edge podcast with Joe PiciThe Clarity Advisors Show (#1) with guest Joe Pici: “Forget emails! For best results, pick up the phone.”The Clarity Advisors Show (#22) with guest Joe Pici: “Aligning and engaging your team for success in 2023.”Follow/Connect with Joe PiciPhone: 407-947-2950Text “Sales Edge” to 55678joe@piciandpici.comJoe Pici on LinkedInpiciandpici.comsellmorevirtually.comFollow/Connect with Ken Trupkeken@clarityadvisors.iowww.clarityadvisors.ioKen Trupke on LinkedIn

 Discover and dive deeper into the areas in your life and business that have been limiting your success Learn the importance of setting up your personal foundation in your work and influence your business Understand the correlation the effect of finding back your courage and changing the world Resources/Links: Want to know how to gain back your confidence and reignite your passion? Click here: https://kendfoster.com/ Summary Do you want to learn how to channel your courage to unlock your inner genius so that you can give the best to your business and clients? Having just a business isn't enough if you're mentally limiting yourself until the glass ceiling. Without the courage and the right mindset, you'll only be bound and limited by what you believe in. Have the courage to unlock your i Ken D. Foster is a keynote speaker, best-selling author, business strategist, and news personality, who owns a broadcast and media production company. He is the executive producer and host of the Voices of Courage Show syndicated on TV, podcast, plus radio and broadcast in 185 countries. He specializes in working with people who are committed to leveling up their lives, maximizing their highest potential, and contributing to making the world a better place. Listen to what Ken has to share and get back your courage to unlock your inner genius by learning the secrets of success and business growth. Check out these episode highlights: 02:08 - Ken's ideal client: An ideal client is anybody that owns a business that is really ready to uplevel that business. They may be stuck in stop-start patterns. 03:41 - The problem he helps solve: Well, the problem I solve is the limitations of the mind. So individuals think that they want to move forward in some area, but there's usually a belief or beliefs, a series of them that we really have to explore and look at. 04:27 - The symptoms of the problem: There's if you have a lack in your life if you have upset and stress in your life if you have relationships that aren't working in your business or your personal life if you have a health issue right now, those are symptoms. 05:15 - Clients' common mistakes before consulting Ken: You know, I love that question because a lot of people want to make a big difference in the world, that's great. My hat's off to you. I work with a lot of people that are in service in many ways. 06:39 - Ken's Valuable Free Action (VFA): Well, let me just give you, I wrote this book. It's called, the Courage to Change Everything: Daily Strategies and Essential Wisdom to Awaken Your Inner Genius. It's 440 pages, hardback. 07:36 - Ken's Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Want to know how to gain back your confidence and reignite your passion? Click here: https://kendfoster.com/ 08:30 - Q: What's your message to the world? A: My message to the world is to use this there's nothing stopping you but if you want greater success, you want more love in your life, you want more compassion, more understanding. Then it's time to wake up. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “Start with the foundation of you; change you, and the rest will change.” -Ken D. FosterClick To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland 00:10 Greetings, everyone, and a very warm welcome to another edition of Marketing the Invisible. I'm Tom Poland beaming out to you, as ever, from the Sunshine Coast in Australia, joined today by Ken D. Foster. Ken, I know that you live in my favorite part of the whole of North America. Tell folks where you're calling in from. Ken D. Foster 00:27 Well, I'm in San Diego and yes, it's the most beautiful place on the planet from my point of view. Tom Poland 00:34 And in Encinitas, right? Ken D.

When a business is sold, it can create a lot of anxiety and challenges for both the existing team and the new owners. Communication is critical to making the transition as smooth as possible so the business can continue and grow. Today's guest, David Nemes, is an entrepreneur and an active business investor who's been part of several acquisitions.On this episode of The Clarity Advisors Show, David and host Ken Trupke discuss the challenges that come with the transition to new ownership, and David talks about his experience working on bank closures.Timestamps(00:59): David's background(03:01): Ensuring a smooth transition(04:38): Communicating before the deal's done(05:58): Mistakes David's made and what he's learned(07:51): Building internal support(13:13): How David got into bank closures(17:38): Explaining loss share(20:19): Things that work and don't work(23:44): David's recommended reading and listening(27:10): Ways to connect with David Nemes Episode Quotes“Walking in on Day One, you're not the smartest person in the room.” (David)“It's always an awkward kind of moment because there's fear. So, you've just got to really be warm and tell them it's going to be okay and we're going to do the right things.” (David)“One of the things that I've learned is to have some industry expertise that you can bring in with you, whether that's just someone advising or the old owner sticking around. But you need a plan for leadership transition.” (David)“I like to say I'm a mile wide and inch deep on a lot of things, and I'm a quick learner. But there's nuance to every industry.” (David)“In my experience, coming into companies as an advisor, it's helpful to build some kind of internal champions – people you can count on to tell you what's happening. They don't necessarily have a position, but they've been around long enough, or they've just got the respect of the people.” (Ken)“We're not going to be successful doing nothing. We are going to be successful doing something, even if it's not exactly right. At least we're trying.” (David)“The phrase I like to use is, ‘We can't steer a parked car,' so let's at least get the car moving.” (Ken)“You have to first understand how you think and what drives you and your behaviors.  You have to be comfortable in your own skin about who you are and how you operate and understand that not everyone's going to operate there, no matter what you try to force them to do.” (David)“There's capital, there's opportunity, and there's operators. I am not an operator. I help operators reach success.” (David) Recommended Reading and ListeningInsights from Oak Tree Capital by Howard MarksWarren Buffet's annual letter to Berkshire Hathaway shareholdersThe Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else by Hernando De SotoConnect with David NemesDavid Nemes on LinkedIn  

As a leader, you don't have to be the best at everything. Rather, you need to know how to use the strengths of each individual to help the team be successful.  Today's guest is Randy Joppie, Vice President of Employee Benefits at USI Insurance Services. Randy is a business and sales expert leading a team of expert analysts.In this episode of The Clarity Advisors Show, Randy talks with host Ken Trupke about working with a team of specialists, some of the mistakes he's made in his career, changing technology, and working with team members across multiple generations.Episode Highlights:The importance of respect in teams.How to lead teams through communication.How to adapt to the changing industry.Timestamps: [01:07] Leading a team with different roles.[02:52] The size of the team.[08:29] Working as a team and directing.[11:47] Learning from mistakes.[14:53] Running businesses as the owner.[17:17] Learning to lead teams,[19:16] What has changed over time?[22:42] Working with people from different generations.[24:13] Randy's advice.[26:33] Randy's recommended content. Episode Quotes:“Anything you know that can be taught is going to lose value over time.” (Ken)“You never know who is going to end up where and when.” (Randy)“There's more than one way to get something done.” (Randy)Randy's Recommended Reading:Fanatical Prospecting, by Jeb Blount.Connect with Randy Joppie:randy.joppie@usi.comwww.usi.comRandy Joppie LinkedIn 

Encore Presentation (from July 11) Is it a sin of murder to remove life support? Ken - You mentioned that a priest should wear a stole during confession. Is a confession valid if they do not? What are the Valid forms of matter for the sacraments? Mike - My sister is fallen away Catholic. Is there an Audio Book you could recommend for her to listen to? She cites Luke 9: 49-50 this as a source that Jesus didn't care what type of Christian you were. How do I respond? Grace – Is there something called a “Dry Mass?” Mark - Can someone go to mass twice a day on a regular basis to receive Jesus twice? Patrick - I am struggling with sin and have been trying to go to confession weekly. Last week I felt really distant but after confession I felt like it pulled me back. Roger - I have only made one confession in my 40 years of being a Catholic. Should I set up a time to have confession with a priest or just go at the normal time and stand in line? Teresa - Is there a limit to how many people can be announced for the mass intentions? Anna - Are spouses living in sin if their marriage should be annuled? Dan - How should I read the Bible?

In questa diretta ti sei perso:-7 Seconds (Youssou N'Dour feat. Neneh Cherry)-Cat's Eye-Hokuto no Ken - You wa shock!-Dragon Ball Z - Cha La Head Cha LaAscoltaci live su runtimeradio.it

SUMMARY: Overcoming Health Anxiety is possible! Today, we interview Ken Goodman and his client Maria on overcoming hpyochondria using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. In this episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, you will learn key concepts of health anxiety and how to overcome their health anxiety. In This Episode: What it is like to have health anxiety The key concepts of treating Hypochondria Tips for managing fears of death and cancer. A step-by-step approach to overcoming health anxiety. Links To Things I Talk About: https://www.kengoodmantherapy.com/ Quiet Mind Solutions ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 226. Welcome back, everybody. If you have health anxiety, hypochondria, health anxiety disorder, or you know of somebody who has health anxiety, you are going to love this episode. I mean, love, love, love this episode. Today, we have Ken Goodman, who's on the show. He's a clinician who's here with his patient and they're sharing a success story, a recovery story of health anxiety, and it is so good. I am so honored to have both of them on. It was so fun to actually interview other people and the way they're doing it, and look at the steps that were taken in order to overcome health anxiety. And this is the overcoming health anxiety story of all stories. It is so, so good. I'm not going to waste your time going and telling you how good it is. I'm just going to let you listen to it because I know you're here to get the good stuff. Before we do that, I wanted to do the “I did a hard thing” and this one is from Dave. It says: “I've been trying to get back into meditating regularly. I was sitting at a desk this morning, reviewing my work emails. And I told myself, before I get even further in my day, I need to meditate. I did a guided meditation, even though I felt a strong pull inside to go back to work. I kept getting caught up in my thoughts, but I just kept telling myself it doesn't need to be a perfect meditation. I said the goal today is just to be able to sit without being busy for three minutes. Nothing more. It was hard, but I did it.” Dave, thank you so much for the submission of the “I did a hard thing” segment, because I think that meditation is so important. In fact, I keep promising myself I'm going to implement it more into this podcast. And Dave has really looked at some of the struggles people have with meditation. And look at him, go, it's so amazing. Totally did it. So amazing. Dave, thank you so, so, so much. I love it. If you want to submit, you may submit your “I did a hard thing” by going to KimberleyQuinlan-lmft.com. If you go to the podcast page, there is a submission page right on the website. And from there, let's just go straight to the show. I hope you enjoy it. Kimberley: Welcome. I am so excited for this episode. Welcome, Ken and welcome, Maria. Ken: Thank you for having me. Maria: Hi, Kimberley. Kimberley: So, as you guys, we've already chatted, but I really want to hear. This is really quite unique and we get to see the perspective of a client and the therapist. If I could do one of these every single week, I would. I think it's so cool. So, thank you so much for coming on and sharing. We're going to talk about health anxiety. And so, Maria, we're going to go back and forth here, but do you want to share a little bit about your experience with health anxiety? Maria: Yes. I think I've had health anxiety probably for like 15, 20 years and not known about it. Looking back now, everything comes clear when you see the multiple pictures that you've taken of certain lumps and whatever five years ago. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I have so many pictures that I've taken and so many different things.” But yeah, I've been struggling for a while I think, and had multiple doctor's appointments. Until I realized that I had health anxiety, it was an everyday struggle, I think. Ken: Well, you came to me and you were mostly worried at the time about ticks and Lyme disease and skin cancer, but you told me that for the previous 15 years or so, you were worried about other things. What are those things? Maria: Well, I was mostly completely obsessed with moles on my skin and them being cancerous. And I was scared of ticks. I would not be able to walk through any grass or go hiking. I was scared that I would have to check my whole body to make sure that there were no ticks on me. I was completely scared of Lyme disease, and it just completely consumed my life really. And they were the main things. But looking back before that, I think that I always had a doctor's appointment on the go. I would book one, and as soon as they said, “You can book online,” That was it for me. I would have one booked, and then I'd go, “Oh, what if there's something else next week? You know what, I'm just going to book one for next week, just in case something comes up.” I am a terrible person when it comes to that because I'm taking up multiple doctor's appointments. And I knew that. But it was trying to reassure myself, trying to control the situation, trying to control next week already before it even happened. So, yeah. MARIA'S SYMPTOMS OF HEALTH ANXIETY Kimberley: Right. What did it look like for you? What did a day look like for you pre-treatment and pre-recovery? Maria: Some days it could be fine. I remember days where nothing was bothering me. It was such a nice feeling. And then I was scared because I never knew what was going to trigger me and it could be anything at any time. And I think that was the not knowing. And then as soon as I would latch onto something, I would come to the phone, I'd start Googling over and over again, hours of Googling and then checking. And then it was just ongoing. And then my whole day, I was in my head my whole day, just what if, what if, asking questions, going back to Google, trying to find that reassurance that of course never happened. Ken: Yeah. You tell me that you would take pictures of your moles and then compare them with the cancerous moles online and do those things. Maria: Yeah. And I would book-- and interestingly enough, looking back now, I went through a phase of always having a doctor's appointment. And then I also went through a phase of completely avoiding the doctor as well, not wanting to go because I didn't want them to say something that I knew was going to trigger a whole host of anxiety. So, I've gone through multiple doctors. And then once you start the doctor's appointments, then you're on a roller coaster. Because you walk away from that appointment, never feeling, or for me, never feeling reassured. Or feeling reassured for maybe a few minutes, and then you leave, and then the anxiety kicks in. “Oh, I never asked them this,” or “Oh my gosh, well, what did that mean?” And then the what-ifs start again and you're back to square one. So then, you go, “Oh, no, I didn't try just what they said. I'm going to book another appointment and this doctor is going to be the doctor that reassures me.” MANAGING DOCTOR VISITS WITH HYPOCHONDRIA Kimberley: Right. Or sometimes a lot of clients will say to me like, “The doctor made a face. What did that face mean? They made a look and it was just for a second, but were they questioning their own diagnosis and so forth?” And I think that is really common as well. Ken: Well, the doctor will say anything and it could be something very simple like, “Okay, you're all good. I'll see you in six months.” And the person will leave thinking, “Why would he want me to come back in six months if nothing was wrong?” Maria: Well, that's interesting that you would say that because I think probably at my lowest point, I was keeping notes about my thought process and what I was feeling when I was actually going to the doctors or waiting for the results. And actually, I thought it might-- if I have a few minutes to read what I actually was going through in real-time, I know it's probably very relatable. Kimberley: I would love that. Maria: I had gone to basically a doctor's appointment, an annual one where I knew I was going to have to have blood tests. And they're the worst for me because the anticipation of getting the results is just almost worse than getting the results, even though-- Ken: Did you write this before we met? Maria: No. While I was seeing you, Ken. Ken: In the beginning? Maria: Yeah. When you'd asked me to write down everything and write down what I was feeling, what I was thinking, and then read it back to myself. And this is what I had written down, actually, when I was going through the doctor's appointment and waiting or had just gotten the results. Kimberley: If you would share, that'd be so grateful. Maria: So, my blood results came back today. I felt very nervous about opening them. The doctor wrote a note at the top. “Your blood results are mostly normal. Your cholesterol is slightly high, but no need for medication. Carry on with exercise and healthy eating.” “Mostly,” what does that mean? “Mostly”? I need to look at all the numbers and make sure that everything is in the normal range. “Okay, they're all in the normal range except for my cholesterol. But why does she write mostly? Is there something else that she's not telling me? I need reassurance. I'm driving down to the doctor's right now. I can't wait the whole weekend.” I go into the doctor's office and ask them, “Is there a doctor who's able to explain to me my results?” The receptionist said, “No, you have to make another appointment.” I explained to her, “You don't understand. I just need somebody to tell me that everything is normal.” Finally, this nice lady saw the anxiety on my face. She calls the doctor over to look at the labs. The receptionist shows the doctor the one lab panel, and he says, “Everything is completely normal. Nothing was flagged. Everything is completely fine.” I thank him so much for looking and walk away. As soon as I get outside, I realize I didn't ask him to look at all the lab panels. What if she meant mostly normal on the other lab panels that I didn't show him? When I get home, I look over each one multiple times and make sure that each one is in the exact number range. After looking over them four or five times and seeing that each one is in the number range except for my cholesterol, I still feel like I need to have her explain to me why she wrote the word “mostly.” The crazy thing is I'm not concerned about the high cholesterol. I can control that. I don't know what she meant by the word “mostly.” I'm going to send her a message. And I'm going to ask her to clarify. I have to believe that she would tell me if something was wrong. I wish there was an off button in my head to stop me worrying about this. Ken: I remember this now. I remember. And this was in the middle. Maria was really avoiding going to the doctor and she had overdue with some physical exams. And so, we really worked hard for her to stop avoiding that. She got to the point where she felt good enough about going to the doctor. And she really, I think I remember her not having any anticipatory anxiety, handling the doctor very well, host the doctor very well, until she got the email and focused on the word “mostly.” And that sent her spiraling out of control. But the interesting thing about that whole experience was that we processed it afterwards, and that whole experience motivated her to try even harder. And then she took even bigger strides forward. And within a couple of months, she was really doing so much better. And I think it's been over a year now since that and continues to do really well. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I actually was tearing up. Tears were starting to come because I was thinking, I totally get that experience. I'm so grateful you shared it because I think so many people do, right? Maria: Yeah. And there's always and/or. You go into the doctor's appointment, they tell you everything. And because your adrenaline is absolutely pumping, you forget everything. And then you come out and you go, “Oh my gosh, I can't remember anything.” Then the anxiety kicks in and tells you what the anxiety is like, “Oh no, that must have been bad. That must have been--” yeah. Ken: And that boost in adrenaline that just takes over is so powerful. You can forget any common sense or any therapeutic strategies or tools that you might have learned because now you just get preoccupied with one word, the uncertainty of that word. Maria: Yeah. I would have to have a family member come in, my husband to come in and sit in the-- it got to that point where he would have to come in and sit in the appointment, so then after the appointment, I could have him retell me what was said, because I knew as soon as the adrenaline kicked in, I would not be able to remember anything. ROADBLOCKS TO HEALTH ANXIETY TREATMENT Kimberley: Right. Ken, this brings me straight to the next question, which would be like, what roadblocks do you commonly see patients hit specifically if they have health anxiety during recovery or treatment? Ken: Well, unlike other fears and phobias, the triggers for health anxiety are very unpredictable. So, if you have a fear of elevators, flying or public speaking, you know when your flight is going to be, you know when you have to speak or you know when you have to drive if you have a fear of driving. For health anxiety, you never know when you're going to be triggered. And those triggers can be internal, like a physical sensation, because the body is very noisy. And everyone experiences physical sensations periodically and you never know when that's going to happen. And then you never know external triggers. You never know when the doctor is going to say something that might trigger you, or you see a social media post about a GoFundMe account about someone that you know who knows someone who's been diagnosed with ALS. So, you never know when these things are going to happen. And so, you might be doing well for a couple of weeks or even a month, and suddenly there's a trigger and you're right back to where you started from. And so, in that way, it feels very frustrating because you can do well and then you can start becoming extremely anxious again. Another roadblock I think might be if you need medicine, there's a fear of trying medicine because of potential for side effects and becomes overblown and what are the long-term side effects, and even if I take it, I'm going to become very anxious. And so, people then are not taking the very thing, the medicine that could actually help them reduce their anxiety. So, that's another roadblock. Kimberley: Yeah. I love those. And I think that they're by far the most hurdles. And Maria, you could maybe even chime in, what did you feel your biggest roadblock to recovery was? Maria: Being okay with the unknown. Trying to be in control all the time is exhausting and trying to constantly have that reassurance and coming to terms with, “It's okay if I can't control everything. It's okay if I don't get the 100% reassurance that I need. It's good enough,” that was hard for me. And also, not picking up the phone and Googling was the biggest. I think once I stopped that and I was okay with not looking constantly, that was a huge step forward. Ken: You really learn to live with uncertainty. And I think you start to understand that if you had to demand 100% certainty, you had to keep your anxiety disorder. In order to be 100% certain, that meant keep staying anxious. Kimberley: Yeah. Being stuck in that cycle forever. Ken: You didn't want that anymore. You wanted to focus on living your life rather than being preoccupied with preventing death. SKILLS AND TOOLS TO OVERCOME HEALTH ANXIETY Kimberley: Right. So, Maria, I mean, that's probably, from my experience as a clinician, one of the most important skills, the ability to tolerate and be uncertain. Were there other specific tools that you felt were really important for your recovery at the beginning and middle and end, and as you continue to live your life? Maria: Yes. I think the biggest one was me separating my anxiety from myself, if that makes sense. Seeing it as a separate-- I don't even know, like a separate entity, not feeling like it was me. I had to look at it as something that was trying to control me, but I was fine. I needed to fight the anxiety. And separating it was hard in the beginning. But then I think once I really can help me to understand how to do that, at that point, I think I started to move forward a bit more. Kimberley: So, you externalized it. For me, I give it a name like Linda. “Hi, Linda,” or whatever name you want to give your anxiety. A lot of kids do that as well like Mr. Candyman or whatever. Maria: Yeah. It sat on my shoulder and try to get in my head. In the beginning, I would be brushing off my shoulder constantly. Literally, I must have looked crazy because I was brushing this anxiety off my shoulder every 10 minutes with another what-if. What if this? What if that? And I think I had to retrain my brain. I had to just start not believing and being distracted constantly by the “What if you do this” or “What if that?” and I'd say, “No, no.” Ken: Yeah. I'd treat a lot of health anxiety. I have a lot of health anxiety groups. And I do notice that the patients that can externalize their anxiety and personify it do way better than the people who have trouble with it. And so, whether it's a child or a teenager or an adult, I am having them externalize their anxiety. And I go into that, not only in my groups, but in the audio program I created called the Anxiety Solution Series. It is all about how to do that. And it makes things so much easier. If now you're not fighting with yourself, there's no internal struggle anymore because now you're just competing against an opponent who's outside of you. It makes things easier. Kimberley: Right. Yeah. And sometimes when that voice is there and you believe it to be you, it can make you feel a little crazy. But when you can externalize it, it separates you from that feeling of going crazy as well. Maria: I felt so much better as soon as I did that because I felt, “Okay, I think I can fight this. This isn't me. I'm not going crazy. This is something that I--” and I started to not believe. And it was long, but it was retraining my brain. And I would question the what-ifs and it didn't make sense to me anymore. Or I would write it down and then I would read it back to me, myself, and I'd be like, “That's ridiculous, what I just thought.” And the other tool which was hugely helpful was breathing, learning how to breathe properly and calm myself down. I mean-- Ken: Yeah. There's lots of different types of breathing out there. And so, I teach a specific type of breathing, which is, I call it Three by Three Relaxation Breathing, which is also in the Anxiety Solution Series. And it really goes over into detail, a very simple way to breathe that you can do it anywhere. You can do it in a waiting room full of people, because it's very subtle. It's not something where you're taking a big breath and people are looking at you. It's very, very subtle. You can do it anywhere. MEDITATION FOR HEALTH ANXIETY Kimberley: Ken, just so that I understand, and also Maria, how does that help someone? For someone who has struggled with breathing or is afraid of meditation hor health anxiety and they've had a bad experience, how does the breathing specifically help, even, like you were saying, in a doctor's appointment office? Maria: I've done it actually in multiple doctor's appointments where I've had that feeling of, “I've got to get out of here now.” It's that feeling of, “Uh, no. Right now, I need to leave.” Before, before I started, I would leave. And now I realized, no, I'm not. I'm going to sit and I'm going to breathe. And no one notices. No one can see it. You can breathe and it really does calm me down, especially in the past, I've had panic attacks and feeling like I can't breathe myself. When you start to realized that you can control it and it does relax you, it really helps me a lot. I do it all the time. Kimberley: It's like a distress tolerance tool then, would you say? Maria: It's something that I can carry around with me all the time, because everyone needs to breathe. Kimberley: Yeah. I always say that your breath is free. It's a free tool. You could take it anywhere. It's perfect. Maria: Yeah. So, it's something that I can do for myself. I can rely on my breathing. And now knowing after Ken teaching me really how to do it properly, it's just invaluable. It really is, and empowering in a way. Now, when I feel like I can't be somewhere, and in fact just not so long ago, I was in a doctor's appointment, not for myself, but I sat there and it was really high up and there was lots of windows around. Of course, I don't like being [00:22:34 inaudible]. And I felt I have to get out. “Nope, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it.” I sat there, I did my breathing. I actually put my earphones in and started listening to Ken's anxiety solutions and listened and took my mind off of it, and I was fine. I didn't leave. And actually, I walked away feeling empowered afterwards. So, it's huge. It's really helpful. Ken: Yeah. You just said a couple of very important things. You made a decision not to flee, so you decided right there, “I'm not going anywhere. So, I'm going to stay here. I'm going to tolerate that discomfort, but I'm going to focus on something else. I'm going to focus on my breathing. I'm going to listen to the Anxiety Solution Series.” And then by doing that, I'm assuming your anxiety either was contained, it stayed the same, or maybe it was reduced. Yeah? Maria: Yeah, it was reduced. It stayed the same. And then it started to reduce. And naturally, by the end, I was like, “I'm fine. Nothing is going to happen.” So, it was great. And the other-- I want to say actually one more thing that really, really helped me. And it was actually a turning point, was that I was in another appointment. The doctor came in and told me I was fine. And it was actually like an appointment where they had called me back medically. So, it was a different scenario. It wasn't me creating something in my head. But anyway, there was a lot of anticipation beforehand and he came in and he said, “You are fine. Go live your life.” And I walked away and I went home. And within maybe about 40 minutes, I said, “Maybe he was lying to me. Maybe he was just trying to make me feel good because he saw how anxious I was.” And at that point I realized, this is never going to stop, never. Unless I fight back, I will never-- I felt robbed of the relief that I should have felt. When he told me that, I wasn't getting that relief and I was never going to have that relief unless I used-- and at that point, I actually got angry. And I remember telling Ken, I was like, “I'm so angry because I felt robbed of the relief.” And at that point, I think I then kicked up my practicing of everything tenfold. And that was a turning point for me. Ken: Yeah. That anger really helped you. And anxiety is a very, very powerful emotion, but if you can access or manufacture a different emotion, a competing emotion, and anger is just one of them, you can often mitigate the anxiety. You can push through it. And for you, it was an invaluable resource, because it was natural. You actually felt angry. For other people, they have to manufacture it and get really tough with their anxiety. But for you, you at that moment naturally felt it. And you're right. You said it is never going to stop. And physical sensations, the body is noisy. People will have the rest of their life. You're going to have a noisy body. So, that will never stop. It's your reaction and your response to those physical sensations that is key. And you learn how to respond in a much more healthy way to whenever you got any sort of trigger external or internal. TREATMENT FOR HEALTH ANXIETY/HYPOCHONDRIA Kimberley: It's really accepting that you don't have control over anxiety. So, taking control where you have it, which is over your reactions. And I agree, I've had many clients who needed to hit rock bottom for a certain amount of time and see it play out and see that the compulsions didn't work to be like, “All right, I have to do something different. This is never going to end.” And I think that that insight too can be a real motivator for treatment of like, “I can't get the relief. It doesn't end up lasting and I deserve that like everybody else.” So, Ken, how do you see as a clinician the differences in recovery and treatment for different people? Do you feel like it's the same for everybody, or do you see that there are some differences depending on the person? Ken: Well, when I treat people with health anxiety, although the content of their specific fears might be different – some might worry more about their heart, some might worry more about shaking that they experience and worry about ALS – the treatment is basically the same, which is why I can treat them in classes or groups because it's basically the same. There are some variations. Some people are more worried about things, where other people feel more physical sensations. And I may have to tailor that a bit. So, some people have to-- their problems are more the physical sensations that they feel and they can't tolerate those physical sensations. And other people it's more mental. They're just constantly worried about things. But in general, they can be treated very similarly. It's learning how to tolerate both the uncertainty and the discomfort and the stress that they feel. Kimberley: Right. And I'll add, I think the only thing that I notice as a difference is some people have a lot of insight about their disorder and some don't. Some are really able to identify like, “Ah, this is totally Linda, my anxiety,” or whatever you want to name your anxiety. “This is my anxiety doing this.” Whereas some people I've experienced as a clinician, every single time it is cancer in their mind and they have a really hard time believing anything else. Like you said, they feel it to be true. Do you agree with that? Ken: Completely. Yeah. Some people will come to me and they know it's probably anxiety, but they're not sure. And some people, they are thoroughly convinced that they have that disease or that disorder. And even after months and months and months of-- and oftentimes the content changes. So, I have patients who, when I first start seeing them, they might be afraid of cancer. And then two months later, it's their heart. And then a couple of months later after that, it's something else. There's always something that can come up and they're always believing it's something medical. And of course, they go back to, “Well, what if this time it is? What if this time it is cancer?” And that's where they get caught in the trap. So, for them, it's answering that question. For Maria, it's the word “mostly” that she became fixated on to get lured in and take the bait. It's like, what happens to a fish that takes the bait? Now they're struggling. So, now once you take the bait, you're struggling. Kimberley: Right. And I would say, I mean, I'll personally explain. A lot of my listeners know this, but I'll share it with you guys. I have a lesion on the back of my brain that I know is there. And I have an MRI every six months. And I have a lot of clients who have a medical illness and they have health anxiety, and it's really managing, following the doctor's protocol, but not doing anything above and beyond that because it's so easy to be like, “Well, maybe I'll just schedule it a little earlier because it is there and I really should be keeping an eye on it.” And that has been an interesting process for me with the medical illness to tweak the treatment there as well. Ken: Yes, absolutely. I have a patient right now and she has a legitimate heart issue that is not dangerous. They've had many, many tests, but all of a sudden, her heart will just start racing really fast, just out of the blue. And it happens randomly and seems like stress exacerbates the frequency of it. But it's not just irritating for her, it was scary because every time she would experience it, she thought, “Maybe this is it. I'm having a heart attack.” But she really had to learn to tolerate that discomfort, that it was going to happen sometimes and that was okay. It happens and you just have to learn to live with it. Kimberley: Right. So, Maria, this is the question I'm most excited about asking you. Tell me now what a doctor's appointment looks like for you. Maria: It looks a lot better. You can actually pick up the phone and book an appointment now without avoiding it. I practice everything that I've learned. I'm not going to lie. The anticipation, maybe a couple of days before, is still there. However, it's really not as bad as it was before. I mean, before, I would be a complete mess before I even walked into the doctor's office. Now, I can walk in and I'm doing my breathing and I'm not asking multiple questions. I'm now okay with trusting what the doctor has to say. Whereas before, if I didn't like what he had to say or he didn't say exactly the way I wanted to hear it, I'd go to another doctor. But now, I'm okay with it. And it's still something I don't necessarily want to do. But leaps and bounds better. Leaps and bounds really. I can go in by myself, have a doctor's appointment, ask the regular questions and say, “Give me the answers,” and leave and be okay with it. GETTING TEST RESULTS WITH HEALTH ANXIETY Kimberley: How do you tolerate the times between the test and the test results? How do you work through that? Because sometimes it can take a week. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's a long time. Maria: Yeah. I mean, I haven't-- so, obviously, it's yearly. So, I'm at that point next year where I will have to go and have all my tests again and get the results and anticipate. But I think for me, the biggest thing is distraction and trying not to focus too much beforehand and staying calm and relaxed. And that's really it. I mean, there's always going to be anxiety there for me, I think, going to the doctors. It's not ever going to go away. I'm okay with that. But it's learning how to keep it at a point where I can understand what they're telling me and not make it into something completely different. Ken: I think you said the keywords – where you're putting your focus. So, before, your focus was on answering those what-if questions and the catastrophic possible results. And now I think your focus is on just living your life, just going about living your life and not worrying or thinking about what the catastrophic possibilities could be. Is that accurate? Would you say it's accurate? Maria: Yeah. Because if you start going down that road of what-if, you're already entering that zone, which it is just, you're never going to get the answer that you want. And it's hard because sometimes I would sit and say to myself, “I'm going to logically think this out.” And I would pretend. I mean, I even mentioned to Ken, “No, no, I'm logically thinking this out. This is what anyone would do. I'm sat there and I'm working out in my head.” And he said, “You've already engaged. You've already engaged with the anxiety.” “Have I?” And he said, “Yeah. By working it out in your head, you're engaging with the anxiety.” And that was a breakthrough as well because I thought to myself after, “I am.” I'm already wrapped up in my head logically thinking that I'm not engaging, but I'm completely engaging. So, that was an interesting turning point as well, I think. Kimberley: Amazing. You've come a long, long, long way. I'm so happy to hear that. Ken, before we wrap up, is there anything that you feel people need to know or some major points that you want to give or one key thing that they should know if they have health anxiety? Ken: Oh my gosh, there are so many. There is a tendency for people with all types of anxiety to really focus their attention on the catastrophic possibilities instead of the odds of those catastrophic possibilities happening. The odds are incredibly low. And so, if you're focusing on the fact that it's probably not likely that this is going to happen, then you'll probably go through your life and be okay if you can focus your attention on living your life. But if you focus on those catastrophic possibilities that are possible, they are, then you're going to go through life feeling very, very anxious. And if you focus on trying to prevent death, prevent suffering, then you're not really living your life. Kimberley: That's it right there. That's the phrase of the episode, I think, because I think that's the most important key part. I cannot thank you both enough for coming on. Ken: This is fun. This is great. Maria: It was fun. Kimberley: Maria, your story is so inspiring and you're so eloquent in how you shared it. I teared up twice during this episode just because I know that feeling and I just love that you've done that work. So, thank you so much for sharing. Ken: Yeah. She's really proof that someone who's suffered for 15, 20, some odd years with anxiety can get better. They just have to be really determined and really apply the strategies and be consistent. She did a great job. Kimberley: Yeah. Massive respect for you, Maria. Maria: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: Amazing. Ken, before we finish up, do you have any-- you want to share with us where people can hear from you or get access to your good stuff? Ken: Yeah. So, quietmindsolutions.com, I have a whole bunch of information on health anxiety. I have two webinars in health anxiety on that website, as well as other webinars in other specialties I have. Also, I have the Anxiety Solution Series, which is a 12-hour audio program, which focuses on all types of anxiety, including health anxiety, as well as others. And you can listen to a few chapters for free just to see if you would like it, if you could relate to it. And there's other programs, other articles, and videos that I produced. I have a coloring self-help book, which is basically a self-help for people with anxiety, but every chapter has a coloring illustration where you color. And the coloring illustration actually-- what's the word I'm looking for? It's basically a representation of what you learn in that chapter. It strengthens what you learn in that chapter. Kimberley: Cool. Ken: Yeah. And then a book called The Emetophobia Manual, which is a book for people who have fear of vomiting. Kimberley: Amazing. And we'll have all those links in the show notes for people as well. So, go to the show notes if you're interested in getting those links. Ken: Ken Goodman Therapy is the other website. It has similar information. Maria: I wanted to mention as well that I actually watched one of Ken's webinars quite by accident in the beginning before I realized I had health anxiety. And after watching it, I thought, “Oh my gosh, I've got that.” And so, it was hugely, hugely helpful because I think that having this for so many years and not realizing, there's a lot of people that still don't realize that they suffer from health anxiety. For me, as soon as I could label it as something, it was a relief because now I could find the tools and the help to work on it and get that relief. Kimberley: Amazing. Okay. Well, my heart is so full. Thank you both for coming on. It's really a pleasure to hear this story. So inspiring. So, thank you. Ken: Yeah. Thank you for doing this, Kimberley. Maria: Thank you. Ken: And thanks, Maria. ----- Thank you so much for listening. Before we finish up, we're going to do the review of the week. This is from kdeemo, and they said: “This podcast is a gift. I just found this podcast and I'm binging on the episodes. I learn something through each episode, and love her practical advice and tools. I feel like part of a community-what a gift!” Oh, I'm so, so grateful to have you kdeemo in our community. This is a beautiful, beautiful space. My hope is that it's different to every other podcast you listen to in that we give you a little bit of tools, a little bit of tips, but a huge degree of love and support and compassion and encouragement. So, thank you so much for your review. I love getting your reviews. It helps me to really double down in my mission here to give as many practical free tools as I can. It is true, it is a gift to be able to do that. So, if you could please leave a review, I would be so, so grateful. You can click wherever you're listening and leave a review there. Have a wonderful day.

Real wedding retrospectives with couples fresh off their wedding planning journey is so much fun! Their crisp memories about the wedding gets you so excited about your own wedding. On today's episode of the podcast Michelle is connecting with Averi Harper and her husband Ken Robinson. Averi is a journalist for ABC News and has been an avid listner of the podcast. She and her husband Ken live in New York city and customized their wedding, adding some beautiful traditions and so much fun to the event that the party went well into the early hours of the morning. Can you say after party?! Listen to their journey of hiring a wedding coordinator, to why they chose their venue, and eventually having their wedding picked up by the NYTimes! Big Takeaways Their wedding was a night because there was another wedding during the day attheirvenue. People are planning wayyyy in advance, and at the end of the day, that was the time they could get. Ceremony was at 7, and last dance was at 1am. They had a DJ While most o fthe planning was done by Averi and her crew, they did have a month of coordinator - who stepped into really take the reins on the day of. Ken is a chef, and they customized their own menu with lots of options fo reveryone. During cocktail hour, they had passed apps and stations available. They did a first look Ken hired a Groom Concierge- Cameron from Fontaine Concierge Cultural aspects were very important for their ceremony. Steel band during cocktail reception JumptheBroomstick Moko Jumbies (stiltwalkers) DIY Favors - rumcake,etc After the wedding, they read their written vows to each other in private. During the ceremony, they couldn't find their vows and so they had to improvise a bit. Links We Referenced instagram.com/averiharper (https://www.instagram.com/averiharper/) flowerfield.com (https://flowerfield.com) https://www.fontaineconcierge.com/ (https://www.fontaineconcierge.com) https://www.amerisierevents.com/ (https://www.amerisierevents.com) www.fetefone.com (https://www.fetefone.com) Quotes “In defiance of everything I have heard on your podcast, about setting your budget first, I can't say that we had a number or a budget that we stuck to.” - Averi “Listen, I had heard so many brides, and so many grooms say that they had not eaten on their wedding day, I was determined.” - Averi “It was still a shock to see her all in her wedding dress, and all those things and all that. But it did make coming down the aisle and all that a little easier.” - Ken “You cried, you forgot to mention you cried.” - Averi “I listened to the episode about a groom's concierge, and the interview you guys did with him. And I always said, well that'd be really nice, but that really feels like something that's so luxurious and so out of the question for us. But it would be great to have someone to keep Ken on track, because Ken is a wanderer. He will get very distracted, very easily but Cameron [the Groomsmen Concierge] was there to make sure all the groomsmen were, you know, on their best behavior. And so I am grateful for that.” - Averi Plan your wedding using The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). A self-paced digital course created with love for you by Christy & Michelle. The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Christy Matthews and Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics (https://www.mophonics.com/). * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast) and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonus episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Christy & Michelle! Our Partners (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/partners) Special Deals for Listeners - TBWPP Enthusiastically Approved! Wedfuly (https://wedfuly.com/bigwedding/) SuitShop (https://suitshop.com/?utm_campaign=EngagedLeads&utm_content=BWPPPartnership&utm_medium=BWPP&utm_source=ReferralLink) The Flashdance (https://www.theflashdance.com/virtual-party-the-big-wedding-planning-podcast) Cactus Collective (https://www.cactus-collective.com/the-big-wedding-planning-podcast/) Unboring Wedding Academy (https://www.unboringweddingacademy.com/bigwedding/)

Ken Magma Marshall is Chief Growth Officer and Managing Partner at RevenueZen, an agency focused on helping high-growth-oriented B2B, SaaS, and professional service brands generate more demand and leads through SEO, content, and LinkedIn . . . to get real leads that actually convert. Ken started his agency four-and-a-half years ago. His first milestone was developing a successful, process that worked and that he could pass onto another person with his SOPS and get the same results. Instead of waiting for clients to request particular services like keyword research or gap analysis, Ken could tell a client, “In the first 90 days, we're going to do these two things that will lead to X outcome based on the research and analytics from my previous clients.” The second one, he says, came about when the repeatable system evolved to the point where he no longer had to tweak the system himself to continue to get targeted outcomes.  About six months ago, Ken's agency reached its third milestone, when it was aqui-hired by RevenueZen. RevenueZen, with a traditional focus on lead gen, appointment setting, and LinkedIn, got Ken's agency's assets, his knowledge of inbound technology, his presence on the executive team, and his agency's book of business. Complementary strengths have proved win-win. ReveueZen's clients are typically established professional, mid-market service companies that have good revenues . . . but may or may not be profitable. All but three B2C “outliers” are B2B technology companies, with 60-70% in SaaS (software as a service). Most of these companies have marketing teams, but are not problem- or solution-aware with respect to RevenueZen's methodologies, don't know what kind of solution they need, or don't know the right provider.  What do they know? They want results. Ken says it is imperative for the agency to qualify its potential clients through the discovery process – if clients don't understand customer lifetime values /average lead values, they are likely to have unrealistic expectations of the value of conversion or question whether they will get a positive return on spend.  Ken will be moderating a HubSpot's Inbound2021 session, “Long Live Forms, All Hail Chatbots: The Epic Debate of Booking Demos.” In answer any participants' subjective blanket assertions, such as a statement that “Chatbots are the future,” Ken will be asking such probing questions as: “For whom are chatbots correct?” What other marketing stack does the company use?” “How will the company measure effectiveness?” The objective is to dig to a deeper level . . . to determine which use cases are appropriate, who they're appropriate for, at what level of business maturity, etc. This year's online HubSpot Inbound conference is scheduled for October 12-14. Ken is intrigued by some of the newer technologies: Lead-qualifying software that captures online prospects' form data, qualifies leads programmatically in real time, filters their information to match rep data, and immediately either notifies the appropriate sales rep or establishes a live video chat. Conversion.AI software that generates scripts based on user inputs and expectations “learned” over time. Alex Boyd (RevenueZen founder and CEO) and Kenneth David Warren Marshall II (a.k.a. Ken Magma Marshall), can be reached on LinkedIn or on the agency's website at: revenuezen.com. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and it is that time of year once again. It is almost time for the Inbound Conference. Much like last year, it will be virtual, but what that means is this is the time of the year where this podcast gets a little bit more salesy, but in a good way. It's just a different flavor of the agency services world that we like to cover. I am joined today by Ken Magma Marshall, CGO and Managing Partner at RevenueZen based in Portland, Oregon, though he himself has newly moved to Brooklyn. Welcome to the podcast, Ken. KEN: Thanks for having me, Rob. Really excited to dive on it. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about RevenueZen and the agency's superpowers, what you're known for, where you succeed well for clients? KEN: There's the 10,000-foot view elevator pitch, which is that we aim to help high-growth-oriented B2B, SaaS, and professional service brands to generate more demand and leads through SEO, content, and LinkedIn. Or in layman's terms, we help our clients get real leads that actually convert. Really, the company itself is the story of RevenueZen before Ken and then my agency. I actually started an agency four and a half years ago, and about six months ago, RevenueZen acquired it. So now, whereas they were focused on lead gen, appointment setting, LinkedIn only, I brought the inbound methodology with me. So now we've got a hybrid and best of both worlds. ROB: Is that maybe also where some of the SEO flavor came in? I would say it's a little bit atypical for HubSpot agencies in the whole ecosystem, lead gen agencies, to know SEO as well as you're articulating. KEN: That's exactly right, and that's why we utilize the terms “demand gen” and “lead gen” very intentionally, because with SEO agencies you get the whole “These are our deliverables and our clicks and our keyword increases.” We're former salespeople. Three of our executives out of four were cold calling back in the day, so we understand how to map that search intent into pipeline, how things are going to go from each perspective that actually leads to those people converting, not just being users and clicks and searches. So full funnel knowledge helps inform the strategy. ROB: I'm going to pull on a thread that you mentioned in there. You mentioned being acquired. What does it look like to be acquired, and how does that happen? KEN: That's a fun conversation. If I were a startup in Palo Alto and I was a kid in college, that might look like somebody buying me for a certain undisclosed amount of money. But for me, it was more about joining a team that was a little bit established. My run rate at my old company I think was around 600,000 ARR. When RevenueZen acquired me, it was basically acqui-hire situation – they get all of my assets, my knowledge, me on the executive team, and all of my book of business. But the strength of it and really the allure for me, or I wouldn't have done it, is that they understood these lead gen methodologies and channels and had these systems that we didn't that strongly complement the inbound engine that I taught myself and learned how to build over the years. It was really that complementary partnership with a slightly mature agency where I could really hone in those growth focuses and new innovation initiatives. Because I'm a mad scientist at the end of the day, Rob. That's what I love to do. [laughs] ROB: Not to project too much of this onto you in particular, but in general, there's a certain amount of confidence and ego that flows into starting a business, starting an agency, and then layer on top of that the degree of confidence and resilience required coming from a sales background. How do you navigate that into – there is a mutual admission of need and benefit. You have to get past the outer defenses to even have the conversation of “Hey, maybe we should get together,” and number two, “How does that look so we can all feel like we have the right seat at the table when we're together?” KEN: Absolutely. My ego, to use an analogy, went into the boxing ring and did not come out on top for the first few fights. I had to sit down with my wife, my friends, family members, and we really chewed on it. I even chewed on it with the CEO of the company. Now I'm the CGO. We lived in the same apartment building. What it came down to was really just that I understood that he has a finance/sales – he worked at a revenue-based software company, very high growth. He has a ground level understanding of what it takes to scale, whereas, like I mentioned, my strength is in customer success and product development. I'm really gangster when it comes to those two things. So I had to look at it and say, he knew that if he could just bolt on these assets that have taken me six years to create, and I knew that with his ability to understand scale and the other two executives taking on those things that I don't do well – I hate this word because it's overused, but we could create some real synergy and grow a lot more quickly. It just came down to that: being able to do what I love and a little bit more stability. ROB: Especially early on, we all want a little bit more stability. Maybe not too much, but definitely more than that early entrepreneurial journey. KEN: Exactly. ROB: Paint a picture, Ken, of what a typical customer looks like, a typical client for RevenueZen. Is it B2B? What's the mix and focus there, and maybe the size as well? KEN: At this point it's all B2B except for three companies. Upwork is one of our clients; Nalgene is one of our clients. But they're the weird B2C outlier as far as consumer goods go, Upwork being this monster that it is. But most of them, 60-70% are B2B SaaS companies. These are technology companies. They have Series A, usually, investment. They've got a marketing team, but the marketing team are not problem- or solution-aware with our methodologies. They just know that they need to turn those levers because their investors or the CEO or whoever is talking to the, VP of Demand Gen or Marketing, and they just want results. They have money to do it, but they typically don't have the knowledge of what kind of solution they need or the right provider. So we can attach ourselves on as the Chief of Digital or an ad hoc CMO and guide them not only in knowledge-gathering, but lay the strategy out and then literally bolt on our team to execute it for them. Really, it's those kind of companies who are more mid-market. They're already established professional service companies, but as far as the SaaS companies, they have a go-to-market somewhat defined; they understand product-market fit. They might not be profitable, but they have good revenues. They really just need somebody to come in, tell them what to do, and have the army to do it for them. ROB: Do they typically have an understanding – you said product-market fit, but they might have a general understanding of customer lifetime value so they can measure you that way? KEN: Yes. Actually, when I'm qualifying them, and same with our CEO, we actually still do all of the sales. At my old company I sold every deal, and now it's just us two closing every deal. But when we ask them about CLV or even their average lead values if they have lead storing and they understand the value of a lead, that's actually done in the discovery process to qualify them as well. Because if they don't understand those values, they'll have unrealistic expectations when we start getting those conversions as to how much they're worth or if it's even going to return on their spend with us. Yeah, that's pretty imperative. ROB: I would imagine once you have provided a lead, that's an MQL (marketing qualified lead). Then there's that sales qualifying that happens after that. Is that typically on the client side? Is there an element of going further down the funnel that you get involved in? Where does that boundary start to happen? KEN: Yeah, we do lean more heavily on inbound these days. I would say it's about a 70/30 split as well. But the furthest we'll get is when we are doing let's say an inbound/outbound hybrid LinkedIn content marketing and outbound service – happy for you to go on the website and check out if you guys want to – the furthest we'll get is setting those appointments with them and then letting them take over. It's part MQL or SQL depending on how they define it, but it's appointment setting as far as how far we go. ROB: Which still can be, with the proper – it sounds like potentially a real blessing for a sales rep. You're hanging out and stuff shows up on your calendar, and it's people who seem interested in buying your software. That's a good way to wake up in the morning.  KEN: Right. That's why we love inbound. Not that outbound doesn't have its place, and in fact, for a lot of startups it does in the beginning. There's urgency. But that's why we love it, because these people are coming to you saying, “You've built my trust, you've educated me, I've compared solutions and then learned about your solution, all on your site. All you need to do is not give me a reason to put my credit card down.” ROB: Very interesting. You mentioned a little bit about the merger, but if we go a little bit further back, what led you to start your own business in the first place? And you got it pretty far along. That level of bookings is more than just typically one person in their closet. What led you to get started on the journey? KEN: Not that amazing, but I'm pretty proud of it. For me, I think I'm the cliché entrepreneur without any background in it. Nobody in my family, none of my friends. But I was that kid with the lawnmower, I had lemonade stands. I used to take my neighbors' trash and put it on my parents' lawn and sell it at a yard sale. I always knew I was interested in making money and seeing what I could do, but I didn't really have the background, or I would say some of the mentorship, to know that's what it was called and how to start a company. I went to school thinking that I would be a salesperson. I was personable, I understood psychology to a certain degree. Right around my junior year, I believe, I asked a counselor, “What should I be doing? I don't really like this sales thing” when I saw my first sales job that I could get. She's like, “You seem like one of those kids who should go check out that digital marketing thing.” That really was the spark, when I started to understand if I can reverse-engineer this thing called an algorithm, nobody knows what that is. I asked a bunch of people, I asked business owners – that's actually how I got my first client – and they had no clue. So that was my first lightbulb moment: I could start a business doing this. However, I've always been geared towards being an entrepreneur, and I always knew I would. That's why I quit my last agency after only being there for about two years total between both of them. ROB: As you got into the starting and progressing the business journey, were there any key inflection points? Obviously, the merger itself is a key point of validation. But before that day, there had to have been some key inflection points in the business, some points where it really seemed to be materially different than just rubbing two sticks together, making some phone calls and getting some clients. What were some of those moments in the growth of the business that were memorable? KEN: Obviously, I still have the first dollar I ever made. Still have that first check. That's the big one. That's the pure validation of “Somebody's willing to pay me money for this thing.” But apart from that, I think the first milestone that sticks out was going from freelancer to having a repeatable process that worked and involving another human being. That was the first big thing for me. I was on Upwork – like I said, they're now our client, so it went full circle. But I remember doing these projects, and I'm like, instead of people telling me what they want me to do, like keyword research or a gap analysis, I'll just say “In the first 90 days, we're going to do these two things that will lead to X outcome based on the research and analytics from my previous clients.” So I had this system that was starting to form. I could give it to another person with my SOPs and then they could do it, so it's now an actual business. That was the first one that was really exciting. The second one, I would say, is when I evolved from doing the work. I had downloaded this repeatable system to a point where I didn't have to actually implement the changes or the recommendations myself for us to still get those desirable outcomes. That required a coach, who was not cheap [laughs], and a lot of hours and mistakes. But we finally got it dialed. Other than the merger, that was one of the most exciting. And then your first six-figure year is always exciting too, as far as validation. ROB: I think people often underestimate the value of what they can do in terms of documenting a process, having people execute on it. The good part is you mostly don't have to think about it. I think the risk after that, however, is that that process gets stale. How do you go about ensuring that a process you've understood and documented can then be also maintained as the landscape changes over 3, 6, 12 months, etc.?  KEN: I think I'm going to answer that in two parts. When I was still general managing the other company, I am so obsessed with strategy; I'm a technician, I'm a strategist by trade. I'm not a banker, I'm not a programmer. So it was always easy for me to have that layer of QA and innovation just because I was reading this stuff every day. I remember – shout out to Rand – after one Moz Local, going to a wine bar and having a bottle of wine and getting to chop it up. But I always found that very easy because I loved that stuff and was interested in it. But now that I'm with this bigger organization and there's four executives, our COO might say, “Here's how we can squeeze out this operational efficiency.” The CEO is like, “Here's how we hedge against risk.” I'm sitting here – and I think that's why it's such a blessing to be in my position – as the Chief Growth Officer, all I think about all day long is how we can ink out that efficiency for the team, make our client have less friction but also stay on top of effectiveness and industry trends. So for me, the answer is simple. It's my job, and that hasn't changed at three companies. [laughs] ROB: That's a critical job, for sure. I would be remiss not to mention the reason this is an Inbound episode is because you are, in fact, moderating a session for Inbound. The session you're moderating is “Long Live Forms, All Hail Chatbots: The Epic Debate of Booking Demos.” Inbound is in October this year. I think it's usually Labor Day week, if I'm not mistaken, but things change in a pandemic. Tell us about that session, what you think you're going to talk about, and especially how you're thinking about moderating that session. KEN: I'll talk about the moderation aspect, because it speaks to who I am as a person and my temperament. Whenever folks get into very sensational language or subjective language, I like to systematically remove that and dive into the concrete, the nuance of what they're talking about and why it's effective. For instance, if somebody says “All hail chatbots, chatbots are the future,” I'm not going to give them a response. My first instinct is to give them a question of, for whom are chatbots correct? And what other marketing stack do they use? And how are they going to measure their effectiveness? That's how I'm planning on moderating things, by having these specific questions to get to the bottom of what use cases are each appropriate, who they're appropriate for, at what level of business maturity, etc. I want to make both people frustrated to get the most out of them. [laughs] I haven't talked to them about that, but now they've heard. That's my style of moderation. That's how I talk and that's how I do business. As far as forms versus chatbots, I go back to when I talk to clients who might come in for inbound, and we convince them they need to do an outbound hybrid on LinkedIn. Or they come in for only appointment setting and they want 10 SDRs tomorrow. I'm like, “You're so niche, and there's this clear keyword opportunity that you can own these terms and have a better ROI. Why are you hung up on that?” There's no right or wrong answer. I've actually used chatbots effectively, and I think forms and demos are perfectly appropriate, especially for a self-serve model. So chatbots have their place, forms have their place, but let's dive into the nuances of it to parse that out. That's my philosophy. ROB: There's a certain attention to that at any sort of conference. I know HubSpot goes to pretty good lengths to make Inbound not all about them, but it is to an extent still about them, and they will hop up there and talk about what they're doing, and they'll certainly talk about it in terms of their agencies, their clients, and the customers they're looking to acquire. They are very visionary in terms of looking outwards, but inevitably, they're also going to unveil some new toys, some new shiny objects, and it will be easy for that to be the topic of the next year, the chatbots – you name it, really. KEN: Yep. ROB: What are you hearing from the ecosystem? Is there anything, whether it's on the agenda at Inbound or bubbling up through the product roadmap, and even outside of HubSpot in the broader lead gen space, what do you see coming that's important? Certainly that isn't a shiny object, because the shiny objects are in service of an objective, as you highlight. KEN: While we're on this topic of qualifying leads and once something's in the pipeline, helping sales ops with their objectives and making their lives easier and helping them be more effective – and shout out to Chili Piper. I'm actually very intrigued by these softwares that are, once somebody fills out a form, qualifying them programmatically, and then based on that response, immediately notifying the correct rep. I've even seen softwares that will allow somebody to live video chat right after they've gotten qualified on the form. Those kinds of technologies that remove friction – and again, chatbots can do this, forms can do this; you can integrate both with these other softwares that I'm describing like Chili Piper – those are the things that I'm interested in. Sales ops is, I think – you see these crazy valued companies. I think that's the future of this stuff. Taking the friction from that person who's a user that might be a lead, quickly and programmatically qualifying them, and then diverting them to the correct part of your sales process or person or folks on your sales team and reducing that friction. I think that's where a lot of opportunities get lost. It's the classic somebody taking 72 hours to follow up with a lead that's inbound. Why? And the same thing as sending the templated email. That's also played out. People don't want that. They need a hybrid of both. That's what I'm excited about and what I'm hearing and seeing. ROB: That's really, really interesting. You may know their product a lot, you may know it a little, but when I speak of shiny objects, one of those shiny objects out in the world is AI and machine learning, but it also seems like this area where Chili Piper is playing could perhaps be a legitimate application. Are they looking at the history of the rep, the history of accounts, the history of places where they've been effective? Is that part of the routing of how they're getting the right reps to the right leads? KEN: Yeah, the cool thing is that they plug directly into the CRM. HubSpot, let's say you have a rep assigned to certain accounts based on – native to HubSpot, within HubSpot, let's say if the person comes in and they typed in “SEO” for their focus, or it includes in the form XYZ terms, then they can automatically say, “This person is qualified as a mid-market opportunity who has X, Y, and Z criteria. Give them to the rep based on our different filters that we've created within the CRM.” And then pushing it to the email address of times that are open for that rep in an automated fashion. We're talking about logging into something, back and forth emails, a form for somebody that might not be qualified – all these components are broken down into very seamless automation. That is what I think the uniqueness of their platform is. Those kinds of automations. There's lots of platforms that do one-off of each of those thing, but it's the fact that it's seamless and it directly integrates with the CRM. That's where I think the benefit is. ROB: It's almost a way to see how the things that they've announced over time, the tools that get rolled out over time, how it's accretive and how it starts to come together. Something like scheduling has been in some CRMs for a while. I recently logged into a CRM of one of our clients, and I was in there because they emailed me. I looked it up and they have our number of employees and our revenue. I'm like, man, I don't think I've seen that in someone else's CRM before. How'd they get that? Because we're a vendor. They're not going to go in and enter that data on us. That was entered for them. KEN: Exactly. ROB: You combine that with – you have some rules engines, you have some AI. It all comes together in a pretty meaningful way. KEN: I was going to say, that's so spot on. It's that accumulative knowledge put together in a way that's seamless that's the benefit. As you mentioned, calendar scheduling tools, integrations with CRMs, those have been around for a while. Even certain routing has been around for a while around automation of sending certain things out based on criteria. But the strength is really in the nuances of those experiences, like when somebody fills out a form, prequalifying them based on their responses in real time. How many different form softwares haven't taken advantage of that very simple opportunity that saves the sales folks so much time? Me and Alex, we're still selling. Every 30-minute call that we do is a pretty big part of our day as executives. So if we can, without even thinking about it, take care of that, have them go through and get that messaging out that they need within a really short period of time, we dramatically increase the chance that that lead will close without lifting a finger. ROB: It's really interesting. It's really meaningful. I think something that's also underestimated – in a lot of our processes that we document out, we put a lot of emphasis on humanizing the language of templates. I don't know if anybody's doing some good work around that. That is the hardest thing to do, but I daresay it might be one of the most important things to do: to write templates that don't sound like templates. KEN: Yep. ROB: I need tools for that, I think. KEN: We have lots of SOPs that we've attempted to do, and thank goodness that every software, even Gmail, allows you to do templates that you can drag and drop and place. But I've also been toying around with Conversion.AI to write these scripts based on inputs that we give it, but over time it obviously learns what we're expecting. That has been a bit of a game-changer in terms of templates as far as email follow-ups and responses with prospects. Or even in our SEO work, making sure that we can do optimizations at scale without having to burn out the strategists or charge these companies an ungodly amount of money. I am very fascinated by continuing to tweak and make automation work for us, and machine learning but without losing that component of human that all of us still look for. ROB: Super sensible. Ken, when we zoom back a little bit, across your founding journey, across your merging in with RevenueZen, what are some lessons you have learned on that journey that you might go back in time and tell yourself, if you had a chance to do them differently? KEN: What a question. Something I chew on regularly. I think the first would be that – Alex, our current CEO, my good buddy, has hammered home a lot that you can create a line of best fit, of effectiveness, efficiency, and productivity. I was so focused on the effectiveness, being 99.9% effective, that I forgot about that aspect of “I'm only ever going to be able to help X amount of people, and I actually can't help them that well because I'm personally burnt out from doing too much work.” I think that's a trap that creatives and agencies often get into, which is that we're so heads down on the custom, we forget about the scale and making it efficient enough to come down at a price point that's affordable to a broader market. So that's thing #1. Again, took a coach and a lot of money and a few years to learn that. The second thing I would say is when I go on a discovery call and I set the tone with the prospect, I tell them, “This is to make sure we're a good fit.” Salespeople have been saying that for years. Used car salesmen say that. But we've taken that in as a value of the company. I am so quick to disqualify in our CRM, in the pre-opportunity stage. That just saves headache for the strategists, it increases the lifetime value of our clients with us, and it's just better for our reputation. Good fits, good case studies. So that's the second thing: disqualifying them. I would say the third thing is the benefit of really good partners who complement your skillsets. As a solopreneur in the beginning, I think I had to learn a lot of hard lessons myself and chew on a lot of hard things without the aid of somebody. Whether it's a mentor or a co-founder or a really good book, just being insatiable about learning and getting help from others, external help, is invaluable. You literally cannot calculate the time and headache that it'll save you. ROB: Disqualifying almost seems like a subset of an SOP. What I mean by that is if you have to look at every lead that comes in and you have to think about all of their constraints and you have to say, “This person's in a closet by themselves and they haven't built a product yet, and they have $1,000 a month that they want to spend on inbound; what can we do for them?”, you'll kind of lose your mind trying to fit yourself to that opportunity, versus understanding when to say no, and maybe even sometimes “Here's someone else that would be a good fit for you to work with” and focusing on the things you do know how to solve. It keeps you from overthinking and getting paralyzed by choice, really. KEN: Ain't that the truth. Preach. Part of that, not only will we say this business/person is not a good fit, but what could we give them or how could we use the network effect to create value and have them go give a referral? So we do have templates of like “You're not a good fit, but here's some standard resources and here's a good one of our vendors as far as our partner program that we partner with.” That's exactly right. A good ICP defined, having that defined will save you a ton of headache and make your marketing better. ROB: As we round the corner, Ken, I can't help but highlight – you've mentioned a couple of times working with a coach and paying some real money for it. I know what that's like. How did you go about finding a coach that worked well for you, and to an extent justifying the cost? KEN: I'll start with justifying the cost. For me, I audit my time, and I audited my time in terms of how much dollars it was likely to bring in based on the activities. I started to hit this ceiling. Like, “There are all these operational inefficiencies that are holding me back, and I don't actually know how to solve them. The problem of why this is a bad thing, I have no clue. I guess I could learn about this or go get an MBA, but I'd rather just expedite that by paying somebody.” The ROI for me I knew would come because I knew I had a good system. I trusted in my “product” back then. But as far as knowing who was the right person, I always tell people to look for somebody who's done it multiple times but isn't so far ahead of you that they can no longer relate. I wouldn't want Jeff Bezos as a coach, even though he's clearly taken over the world. So this guy was a former founder three times over, but currently just wanted to give back. I mean, he charged money, but really it wasn't that much compared to the market and his expertise. I did a little bit of research. I got a beer with him. Those two components – he's done it before, I can sit down and have a conversation, and he's not too far ahead of me in my industry in the service business to be checked out and just in it for the money. I think if you look at it from that perspective, it's often worth it. That's what I would say. ROB: That's a great point also. Price is significant, but it's not always an indicator of quality. When I was interviewing coaches, I talked to – might be a wonderful guy, but he was a coach in a box. He literally had a box with a coaching methodology, and I think he was doing a career change. He was actually more expensive than the guy I ended up working with, who coaches execs of SalesLoft kind of legitimacy. SalesLoft probably pays him a lot more in total. But the credibility did not always correlate with price, is my point there. KEN: Hundred percent. ROB: Ken, when people want to catch up with you, connect with you and with RevenueZen, other than online for Inbound in October, where should they go to find you? KEN: You can check out either my or Alex's LinkedIn. Alex Boyd and Kenneth David Warren Marshall II, a.k.a. Ken Magma Marshall, on LinkedIn. RevenueZen, we're building a new website, so if you go to revenuezen.com any time in the next quarter, we'll have a lot of goodies in our Resource Center. That's always a great place to start. I'll say it now and I'll say it until the day we sell this thing or we keep doing it off into the future: I am always geeked to jump on a call with somebody who isn't our ICP to have a strategy conversation. It's not a sales pitch. It's me in real time, fixing stuff on your site and your pipeline and your methodology. I could do this just with my brain because I've been doing it for a while. So it's always good to get in touch, regardless of if you think you have the money or need SEO. I'll give you something to walk away with every time. ROB: That sounds like a YouTube channel. You let Ken give you help for free and you just agree it's going to be on YouTube in real time. KEN: I used to do that. That's how I used to prospect. That's how I got my first few clients. I would do a real-time, off the top of the dome analysis of their site and fix three to four things. I'd give it to the developers, not even the marketing contact, and the developers would be like, “You increased our page speed by like 60%. How did you do that? Aren't you an SEO provider?” I'm like, “Exactly.” [laughs] ROB: Excellent. Thank you, Ken. Hopefully we can meet up in the skin at Inbound some year when it's back in person. I wish you and the RevenueZen team all the best. Thank you for coming on and sharing. KEN: I would love that, Rob, and you're welcome to come to Brooklyn any time for a beer. Cheers. ROB: Brooklyn's awesome. Cheers. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

A Systematic Approach to Business With Ken Lundin We all know that sales are important, and sometimes people look at that as if it's a yucky word, but we're always selling ourselves in one way or another, whether it's to find that beautiful lady, beautiful man, or whatever the situation is, we all need to know how to sell ourselves. We've got Ken Lundin from Ken Lundin and Associates to talk about the systematic approach to business. We all know that sales are important, and sometimes people look at that as if it's a yucky word, but we're always selling ourselves in one way or another. Whether it's to find that beautiful lady, beautiful man, or whatever the situation is, we all need to know how to sell ourselves.  We've got Ken Lundin from Ken Lundin and Associates to tell us more about a systematic approach to business. Key Takeaways: Do your buyers know your value? What's the big pain that you actually solve? Value development versus commoditization: what does "selling on value" mean?  How to increase your profitability ratio? Find out the real reason that your customers stay with you, market to that, and sell with that.  Why does sales training fail? Focus on what you can control and change the way you buy sales consulting.  How to Calculate Sales Growth Over 5 Years How do you calculate sales growth and particularly what should be the timeframe? Ken: I think what I like to measure is the impact. Do you have an individual who's in a leadership position or a management position who's making an impact with what they're doing? We call that Alpha. We steal that from an investment term for investment management. Ken: Alpha is literally like this. If your industry is growing at 10%, are you growing at above 10%? Because the difference between the industry is just organic growth, and what you're growing at is the rate that you're capturing more market share. From that perspective, you've got to put the right things in place. Ken: Typically, when we talk about time frames, we ask what are we going to do now? What are we going to do in 3 months, 6 months, a year? And then what should we look at in 2 years. The process of putting sales in place, it's typically a year's process with iterations after that.  Obviously, there are lots of things that come into the sales process. If you've looked at people such as Jordan Belfort, it's all about tonality and looping. Is it more about having a strategy around it rather than talking in a certain way like you've got a secret? What is the sales strategy? How would you comprise it? Ken: Probably the number one mistake that companies make is they don't realise how the product is actually impacting the client or the customer because they think their product matters. Ken: An example of the number one thing that you've got to figure out is what's the big pain that you actually solve? Let's say you're selling software or IT services. If you're trying to sell $50,000 software or a subscription and you're saying you can give a better report, no executive will wake up one day and think he should spend $50,000 to have a prettier report in a different font. Ken: Executives will spend $50,000 at this moment if that means a way to better run my business with better data and make better decisions that will lead to revenue growth, expense decreasing, etc. Changing fonts to Comic Sans doesn't win anyone's heart. It's definitely about solving people's problems, not looking at what they need, but instead looking at what they want and how you are going to better reflect that. As business efficiency experts, we are all about making their business more efficient. The fulcrum that we use is technology, but that doesn't mean that that's the only one out there. How to Write a Sales Strategy From a sales perspective, what are the key ingredients that you would need to leverage systemization and to be the right person to be able to sell your product in business? Ken: You can look at it from a couple of perspectives. First, am I doing it right? What are my customer acquisition costs? How much does it require me to get a customer? Ken: Second, what's the lifetime value of my customer? Do I actually have add-on processes? Ken: Ultimately, what we're trying to figure out is how do we put in a process that's customer-centric, about solving their problem, and helping them realise the problems they don't even know they have. One of the biggest fallacies you're going to see right now is that the buyer is 67% of the way through the journey before they actually talk to a salesperson. Ken: Here's the problem: if you believe that in business, you would decide that you no longer have to provide value or sell. It's like going to the doctor because your back hurts, and then the doctor asks you to walk to the door and tells you that you don't have a back problem but your knee is messed up. In business, the buyer usually comes in because they're trying to cure the symptom, instead of the actual problem. Ken: That's why you have to build a sales process that helps the buyer understand how to analyse the problem and how to figure out what the latent pain is, not the pain they walked in with, but what's the real problem that they need to solve. It sounds like there's a lot of psychology that goes into understanding someone else's problem, putting your head into the mind of your buyer. From our experience in business, we've seen that that is very difficult to do. Many years ago, we used to do web design and we had business owners tell us what looked good and what didn't. They're not their client, and they're not doing the voodoo that we do. How to Help Your Buyer Realise Your Value How do you make sure that you jump into the right mindset? Is it best if you've got a few clients telling you why they are working with you? How do you make sure that you're finding those golden nuggets, the reason that the knee is broken as opposed to the back? Ken: I think we're in such a hurry to get revenue for the wrong reasons. Early on in the cycle of our business called the launch phase, which is about product-market fit, some think they should be producing revenue in order to get feedback. Ken: If you hurry through the product-market fit where you don't understand the customers' real problems or issues, when you install the process of sale, you can still sell some stuff but: [bullet point] you're selling it at lower margins [bullet point] you have a higher cost of acquisition  [bullet point] you're having more stress within the buying cycle Ken: Ultimately, when you start to talk about being efficient about this, it's the ability to be okay with slowing down to speed up, slowing down to go big. We were in business, booming and going crazy, back in 2010 when we had a bit of a recession. We grew too big too quickly. One of our key employees had a stroke, and the end result was the team not having enough capacity so we had to start shedding clients. That would have been better if we had processes in place, which now we do, but we didn't at that stage because we grew too quickly to create the processes because we were too focused on the sale. That would be probably a good example of what not to do, and I've learnt the hard way and how to do it properly.  Ken: I think that's fair to say. I think the big issue there is sometimes it may not be slowing down as it may be focusing. Let's be efficient with our efforts and let's decide what are the most critical things that you need to address in order. We often talk about going left to right. We do the first thing and then the second thing. Businesses do the first thing, the 12th thing, the 6th thing, the 7th thing, and they forget the third and fourth. What Does "Selling on Value" Mean If you're going to be making sure that you're selling in the right way, you're talking to people, and you're selling on the right things, price becomes a factor when it shouldn't, especially if you can monetise your products and you're selling exactly the same thing as your competitor. Here we have Burger King and Hungry Jacks, which have exactly the same franchise model, same business, same logo, different words. Both nearly like a cookie-cutter copy of McDonald's. There's very little difference between the products that they're selling and they're both competing, to a degree, on price. What does selling on value mean? How do you make sure that you're selling on the values that your clients want? Ken: For years, I have been looking for a way to really try to show people what value development means versus commoditization. You just gave me the leverage to do that. Thank you!  Ken: Hungry Jacks and Burger King are a perfect example of how you allow commoditization to happen and what your business may be doing wrong. Think about it: that's kind of a walk up and take an order—we all have buns, we all have meat, we have cheese on it, and we have a price. Ken: Unfortunately, that's how the vast majority of businesses in the world present their products. Think about the difference of an experience, though. If you walk in and somebody is actually going to talk you through it. Ken: That burger at Hungry Jacks or Burger King might even be better quality than the one that I'm getting down the street from the craft burger place, but they're asking me what I want, they're having a conversation with me, and I'm paying almost twice as much for that. Ken: Same thing in B2B sales and B2B servicing. If you want to let the client walk themselves through a do-it-yourself process, you're going to have commoditization and price value problems all the time. On the other hand, if you're going to create a process where you actually get to have conversations and expose the things that they truly want and need in their business, you can increase your prices and your margins. Is it ok to have a hybrid model? What we've done for the last few months is we've looked across all of our competitors and we've looked at what they're doing and what they're selling. We've commoditized exactly what they're doing and selling and then dropped the price by 10% to 15% even if we're not making any money on it. Even if we're losing a portion of money on it, we know that if they're coming to us for that, any of the other professional services that we offer, we've already put them in a position where they know, like and trust us. If they've already looked at prices across the board and then they see these guys selling in markets $1 to $6 cheaper than the other guys, they will go with them. We've called it "Would you like fries with that?" model because we know that they're going to be interested in the first thing but it's opening up the conversation to then sell them other things, the same as when you get a junk mail in the post. All the things that are on special generally have these add-ons, which is where they make money. Is that hybrid approach okay or are there some sort of pitfalls that people should be aware of? Ken: The answer is it depends. Look at the home printer market as an example. Right now, I think if I sign up for Office Depot, Staples or any kind of office loyalty card, they'll give me a printer for free, but they make money on the ink. Then they charge you $50 for the ink to go in the printer.  Ken: Yes, the model works as long as you know the lifetime value of your customers. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. If you do less than break even on the initial acquisition of the customer and then you don't know what your actual ability to sell is, you don't know how often they actually buy from you afterwards, or how often they add on services. It's a pretty risky play. It's like gambling and playing craps. Ken: On the other hand, we have a customer that does mobile application development for Fortune 1000 companies. We know that they're going to sell seven figures once they get somebody in the door, so I kidded with them and I said, "Sell them supersize fries because once you get them in, they're buying seven figures." Ken: But I found that it depends. The only way I'd say to do that is if your sales cycle on the front end is very short, doesn't require you to do a lot of selling, it's futures based and you're okay with that. It's very automated so you're not wasting people's time. You don't want to be spending time on things unless it's really bringing a lot of money. When you've got this situation where you've got this hybrid environment, are there things you should be aware of? Obviously, you don't have to say yes to every customer. I think that's important. We've all seen and dealt with low-lying fruits, bottom feeders, Karens, and people who are just looking at the dollarydoos and don't care about anything else. If they come through the door, is it okay to say no? In that printer example, is it okay to not sell them a printer because you know they're never going to buy ink from you? Or should you still keep face and sell to everyone and stuff up your 80:20 ratio and have more of that 80% you don't care about? Ken: There's no such thing as a good bad deal. Go with your gut, and make sure that you have a look at what the potential is for that customer. Don't just sell them just for the sake of it. Don't give them supersize fries if you don't see them buying a burger. How to Increase Profitability Ratio If you've already been selling a bit and your business is going well, hopefully you have your work-life balance in check, but you're looking to better things and the only way you can do that is by increasing staff or increasing the profitability ratio. If we focus on just how to increase the profitability ratio, how would you go about doing that? Ken: When you talk about the profitability ratio, I think most people are priced too low to begin with because they don't spend enough time trying to figure out the big problem that's actually solved. Ken: If you want to increase your profitability ratio, ask your customers who've been with you for any period of time the following questions: [bullet point] Why did you originally decide to work with us? [bullet point] Why did you decide to buy our products or services? [bullet point] What would have you kicking and screaming if we took it away from you? Ken: Most of the time, businesses miss the real reason that their buyers want to stay with them. Find that, market to that, and sell with that. That will move up your profitability ratio substantially. It's a very easy way to do it, isn't it? If you find out what the carrot is and what the fire is, at least you know what's having them move toward you. That's something that you could then use to create sales, sales group content, no market towards the same customers. You'd only go to obviously the top 20 that you want to work with, your A-grade clients, to do that.  Why Sales Training Fails We've spoken a lot about different ways that you can better your sales process. In what ways have you seen that sales training fails? I've covered off a little bit about Jordan Belfort and his sales persuasion stuff. People sometimes get caught up in these 6-hour master classes where they think they're going to jump out of there and start the next Wall Street franchise. Why do sales training fail? What are the things that you've seen that people should just stop doing or alternatively, what should they start doing?  1. Focus on What You Cannot Control  Ken: Focus on what you can actually control. Oftentimes, we think about our business and we think about if this would happen, if this could occur, and so on. Focus on what you can control. Ken: And push the accountability of what your individual employees or salespeople can control. They can control the number of conversations that they have. They can control the number of first meetings they have. 2. Do Sales Training in Small Bites Ken: Second, from a sales training perspective, you actually have to understand that sales training has to be done in small bites. It's my belief that the world of sales training has failed business. Ken: There's something called the Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve, which says that you'll forget 77% of everything you learn in 7 days. Are you paying people thousands and thousands of dollars to come in for a two-day training to fix your people? That's the fire. Burn the cash and then spend it on carrots. Ken: We use a process called Habit Stacking. I got the terminology from somebody else so attribution to whoever it was. We don't do one- or two-day deals. We do two hours of training in January, two hours in February, two hours in March, and so on. Ken: In between those training sessions, we back it up with coaching to help get the behaviour to change. The number one thing that you need to know about making your team better is it has nothing to do with training. It has everything to do with behaviour change. Ken: If you say “what can I do to get behaviour change out of my salespeople to make them more successful for our business?”, that will flip your mindset and change the way that you look at how you can actually increase your sales. How to implement efficiency processes? A lot of people in the B2B sector can be in professional services or selling a product. Generally, they have the people that are on the coalface of business.  Ken: Everyone should care about sales, but everyone is not in sales. If you have people that are on a support desk or answering the phone, how do you make sure that her behaviour has changed into something that aligns with the company's core beliefs to ultimately produce more revenue and have a longer period of client retention? Ken: You have to have people who you have to have a culture that cares about the ultimate client experience, which has to be the thing. As long as that's true, everybody can pull the wagon the same way. Change the Way You Buy Sales Consulting Make sure that you do have these sorts of things in place. I know that you've brought in efficiency processes and made sure that you've got a systematic approach to be able to have people in line and have people accountable. Tell me a little bit about how you implement that for businesses. Ken: We've done something that's very different. One of the things we figured out a year ago was that people were buying sales training and coaching and they're trying to fix the symptom. It's like they're driving down the road and they have four flat tires and they were asking us to fix one. But if we change a tire, it's still a bumpy ride. Ken: What we find is that our sales training and coaching strategy, as well as process work, need to be delivered on a monthly basis. That makes small changes and tweaks because that's the only way you get long-term behaviour change for your staff, your leadership, etc. Ken: We look at the world very differently. We want to do small changes because we are interested in long-term behaviour change. We try to take a holistic approach. I couldn't agree with you more on that one. As business efficiency experts in business, we look at micro changes to make macro differences. We look at shaving minutes of every employee to save hours for your whole team. Don't change things that aren't within your control. Use your resources and become resourceful with those resources. It takes 21 days or longer to start a routine. I learned in hypnotherapy that you'd need to do something for at least 21 days or 21 times. After you get to the 65-day mark, it becomes autonomous with what you're doing. You can't do that in a 6-day sales training or 2-day blastoff workshop. It has to be something that's done over time with an accountability process where you're able to bring it back to your staff, and change the way that you're buying sales consulting. It's something that is identical to sales as a service (SaaS). How would you frame how you should buy sales? Ken: I have an aversion to calling anything "a service" because it seems like the lazy man's way out. Everybody is like, "I want to reinvent my business. I'm dry-cleaning as a service." Suddenly everybody's got a SaaS business. Ken: What we say is "You get everything we've got and it's a subscription plan for a flat fee." We're able to do what would cost about twice as much in total dollars for half as much in monthly spend because we can set it up, we can put our team on it instead of an individual consultant who bills hourly. You call it what you may, but we call it impactful. It helps you plan your business because you're able to make sure your staff is fully utilised. That means that people aren't sitting in seats waiting for calls or waiting for people to call, which means you can pass those efficiencies onto your clients. It's a better system for everyone when you're able to have a predictive income and they have predictive spends and they know what their outcomes are going to be. Ken: It allows us to slow down or go fast too because we do a 3-month entry and then it's 6-month renewals after that.  Conferences are a waste of time. You go to a conference and you think you've got to change your business, and then a week later, you've gone back into the same mundane routine that you're always in because it wasn't something that you had anyone helping you out and guiding you through. [insert the "conference is a waste of time" video] It's Okay to Be Wrong  It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to fail. That's something that I learnt after leaving school, which I kick myself for doing so. I remember sitting in the advanced math class after I missed two weeks and I didn't know what the hell they were talking about but I was too embarrassed to put my hand up to learn. Then I was missing 3 weeks, 4 weeks, and 5 weeks; I was so behind I couldn't catch back up. If you have a question, ask the question. It's okay to be wrong. We all do it. That's something that everyone needs to be more aware of. Dorks Delivered's Worst and Best Year In 2020, the COVID year, we had our worst year in 10 years. We've been in business for 14 years, and most people in the technology space are kicking goals. We stuffed up.  There was the G20 back in 2013 in Brisbane, and we had put in processes so that everyone could work from home securely. That was part of our onboarding process. When COVID hit and everyone had to work from home, we already had it in place, whereas other IT businesses were putting out projects and cashing in on it. We stuffed up there, but all of our clients were so appreciative of it. The moment their businesses bounced back is looking to be the best year that we've ever had in business.  Where are vendors' responsibilities? A lot of the time, there are products that we're selling or that we require in business to leverage whether that be for our business backup type of things or for your business, like Salesforce, CRM systems, and Xero. Where do you think the vendors' responsibility sits with ultimately selling their products? Do you think they should have any say in it? Do you think they need to step up their game, given that our business's success ultimately drives their success? Or do you think that it's just "you package it up however you want it to look?" Ken: I think at the end of the day, they have a responsibility to represent their product and train the people who sell their product depending on the kind of the lift. As an example, if they are not helping you at all, whatever that product is or the channel partner is, then they should be paying you a lot more than everybody else. Ken: On the other hand, if they're providing you a substantial amount of backup, resources and other things, then maybe that's not the case because they're actually investing in your success. I think when I look at our channel partnerships, I'll take the least amount of money to be a part of the partnerships that I'm most fond of. Because you believe in the product and the positioning, and they've probably got enough backing to be out to support you. Ken: Absolutely, because that's the idea of outsourcing to gain efficiency and leverage. Recommended Book: Obviously Awesome by April Dunford If there was a book that would help our listeners to be better at sales, what would that be? Ken: Don't read any sales books. Here's the problem. When people read sales books, everything they read about sales was written 30 years ago or earlier. Ken: The sales books that we read all used very common concepts using different languages. If you're not educated in the actual process of sales and how to sell, you read these sales books and you think they're saying different things. You end up in a zig-zagging pattern of trying to implement what you read in the latest book, and you change it even though all it should have done was reinforce what you've already done. Ken: Unless you have the ability to group things in context, I don't think reading sales books is a very good way to actually figure out how to do sales because it confuses most people. Ken: I'll tell you a cool book I read recently, which helps you think about how to be creative and figure some stuff out, gives you some positioning. And that's called Obviously Awesome by April Dunford. She's based in Canada, and she's the go-to for small businesses.  You're right, there are a lot of books that talk about how to do, not what to do, and not things that are actually actionable. When it does boil down to it, most of the time it's just about taking the first step and that's most of the time the hardest. Ken: "Done is better than perfect." I love that because as an engineer, one of the biggest problems that I find is I do 95% planning and 5% execution. Have you heard of the "ready, fire, aim" concept? I'm getting better at this, but I find it very difficult.  There are different ways that you can help businesses. Tell us more about it.  Ken: We have a 3-month start and then a 6-month renewal. Our average client stays with us for probably a year and a half. They can come in and just see if we actually know what we're saying for the first three months and then at the end of the first three months, we will automatically renew for six months to continue the engagement. Jump onto Ken Lundin and Associates!  The podcast is called Business Built Freedom. It's different for everyone. What is the vehicle of business or what is business built freedom to you? Ken: Choices. Options. People say, I want to make money, I want to make a million, I want to do this or that. Business freedom is about creating options because there's nothing worse in life than not having options. Just look at last year with COVID when most of our options were taken away globally. It definitely helped people think laterally and out of the books. I like that: choices and options. A lot of the time, if you're working for someone else, you're doing it by whatever the man has said. You don't necessarily have as many choices and options.  Ken: I think at the end of the day, the idea of being efficient has to transcend every piece of your business because that's how you actually will squeeze the most value out of it. Whether you're running a lifestyle business or an enterprise business, you have to ask: are we being efficient? When you say yes or no, you have to know how you actually measured it. Whether it's sales operations or your IT systems, understand how to get the measurement to answer the question the right way instead of just answering it with your gut. If you have any feedback, comments or love to give, please jump across to iTunes. Stay good. Stay healthy out there.   

Ken: Jason Holzer is a certified teacher and thought coach, accomplished basketball coach, and elite skills trainer. He is also an Amazon Best Selling author, post-Traumatic growth storyteller, and the Co-Founder of 4D Athletes. Welcome, Jason. Jason: Howdy Ken thanks for having me on the show today. I appreciate it. Ken: You're welcome. All right so how did you come to write the book? How did it come into being? Jason: Well, you know I did basketball camps for a long time. So, I traveled across the US. I went to a lot of places some were small enough to drive through. I was driving to eastern Ohio, almost like the border of Pennsylvania. I like to drive without any radio on sometimes just in pure silence. I have two kids I'm a teacher, so there is always a lot of noise. So sometimes it is just nice to be where there is nothing going on. I'm a man of faith and I believe in spirituality. As I was in that quiet place and just being. The word “write” came into my mind. I was unsure of how to process that. I got home and that thought kept nagging at me “write” I was like “huh, Okay.” I told my wife, “I think I'm supposed to write a book.” She was like “you are? about what?” I think God is asking me to write a book about losing my dad to suicide. My wife said really do you know how to do that? I told her I had no clue. I went to college to become a physical education teacher. I work in sports. Nothing in my degree says creative writing or anything like that. A long story short about 18 months later, I ended up; I wrote a book about my story of losing my dad to suicide when I was 17 years old. but I didn't want to just be that, of the loss, I wanted to be a crescendo of, hey how do I get over being left behind. You can still have a great life despite what happened to you. Ken: Okay so tell us more about the book Jason: Yeah, sure it's a first-person narrative of what I went through. So that when you read it you feel like you are in my shoes. Everybody processes grief and loss differently. but I wanted to give people an experience of what I personally went through. Knowing that hopefully, people will feel similar things. Everyone's experiences will be different but sometimes emotions can be relatable. That was my goal. But then the second part of that I talked about things like self-love, things like building great habits, Things like forgiveness, and how to heal yourself. how would I heal myself from the trauma in order to find my identity? So that I could find my vision in order to let go of these negative emotions of anger, resentment, these were things that I harbored inside. To be able to move on. To learn how to get past some of the most difficult times in your life. To see a positive, optimistic future and believe that things will get better. I will be able to smile again, there is a rainbow at the end of the storm. So, the second part of that is the healing piece of it. Listen to the podcast to hear the whole interview. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also, join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Ken: We have Di Snarr on the show today. She Owns a “Touch of Healing” Kinesiology Di and I met on LinkedIn and it was just amazing. I was very moved by her story and I know you will be too. Di was on a podcast called “Just Interesting People” which was an awesome interview. Welcome to the show. What is the toughest thing you have had to overcome in your life? Di: There were a lot of tough things I had to deal with. I think the top one is abuse, first being abused by others, and then because of that, I would abuse others, just in my interactions with them. Like at school when I was a kid or my siblings, and then I abused myself. The way I was, isolated me, So then I would abuse myself. It was a rough road to learn how to get out of those experiences. Ken: You said you abused yourself. I mean I think all of us can relate to that. But how did that look for you? Di: I was very promiscuous for a few of my teenage years between the age of 14 - 17. Some people would say being promiscuous, that's not a problem. But when you're doing it in a sense that you're trying to continue old abusive habits. That's where the problem is. When you have those experiences when you have any kind of sexual experience. Whether it's by yourself or someone else or you're looking at pornography or anything and anything of a sexual nature. Your body releases hormones and chemicals that connect you to that experience and so it affects you for your life. So for those who experience abuse that way it takes such deep healing. It takes a long time to heal, for some people they may never heal. Ken: Yeah when you are abused they take your boundaries and they blow him up, right? Di: Yeah, you're violated, you're damaged, you're never the same. It affects you on every level; spiritual, physical, emotional, and mental and then however many levels each of those contain. So you know if you're a religious person that can help with your spirituality, then for your emotional support you have to see a therapist. Then for physical, you never feel clean. It's so damaging especially when it happens so young, and that's all you know, it's normal. You eventually learn it hasn't happened to everyone around you and then you see them as clean. Now kids are so intuitive, so when I was in school the kids could sense there was something different. They couldn't put a name to it or understand it unless they had a similar experience. You know they don't know what to call it, but then they could sense the energy coming off of me. They don't know what to do with it, so I was relentlessly teased, I tied up at recess and they would throw rocks at me. It was a vicious cycle from the beginning until I met my husband. When we met I told him everything about my life, cuz I didn't want any secrets. I didn't want anybody to come to him and say “did you know this about her?” or like “this is who she really is.” or whatever. I was upfront with him, and it's not something that he learned growing up, cuz he didn't have an easy time either. But he discovered some things and then taught me that really helped me to come out of that. I was then able to learn what kind of things are acceptable, what's not acceptable, and how to love myself. What is the best way for folks to connect with you? personalpathways1111@gmail.com or Di Snarr | LinkedIn Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also, join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Ken: All right today we have Jaclyn Phillips. She is a photographer, she owns an event venue, and she is an author. Her first book “Comfortably Uncomfortable” was just released. Welcome to the show Jacquelyn. Jacquelyn: Thanks for having me. Ken: You're welcome so let's go ahead and get into this tell me about who you were in the beginning and how you got to this place? Jacquelyn: So, prior to where I'm at today I spent a good portion of my years on this planet, keep in mind, I'm not even 40 yet, really just miserable. I took life in a scorched-earth approach. I assume that every interaction was a potential threat. I went about pushing others away and making myself a 1-man band. It's not a way to live. It's painful and it's a lonely way to live. I had a really rough childhood and so I had developed all of these ways of managing, that weren't helping or providing me fulfillment. I often felt myself just tired of being the broken toy in the corner. Which I wasn't, it was a really poor mental state to be in. I had invested in myself and I decided that I didn't want to live that life any more. So, I hired a Life coach, a regular therapist, a trauma therapist and I got meds. I started getting exercise. I put all of this effort into finding out who I really was. the happy person that was buried in there, who has been wanting to break out all along but didn't know how. Today I share my story and I do my best to help others. I have talked with you about the importance of nutrition in many of our episodes. I have found a clinically proven product that I drink one packet a day and it gives my body all the micronutrients I need. This is an all-natural product you will love. The packet is filled with superfoods and all their nutrients. Best of all it comes with a 100% Money back guarantee, so there is no risk. Many doctors are now recommending this. Start your day like I do with a packet of nutrition. You are going to want to try this. Goto https://kengerber.kyani.com/ Then if you would like to become a business partner contact me. Join me in having Kyani each day to improve your health! Jacquelyn also answers these questions. Listen to the podcast! You've said in the book that improving communication with your husband was key to your journey, how did you do that? What are your thoughts on social media and mental health? Any tips to keep it in perspective? If there were only three truths that you leave for this world and your posterity, what 3 ideas would you leave for them that could lead them to have an amazing life? What is the best way for folks to connect with you and buy your book? Web: GrownUpGrowingPains.com, Insta: @grownupgrowingpains, FB: /Grownupgrowingpains Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

子供の頃、習い事がとにかく嫌いだったのですが 今はお金を払って進んで習い事に通っています。 やる前から「私には向いてない」と思うのではなく 少しでも気になるものがあれば トライすべきですよね。 合うか合わないかは、向き不向きなんて その後に判断すればいいだけのことです。 テニス楽しい

00:38 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen introduce today's guest, Ken Stillwell, who speaks to his role as COO at PegaSystems 09:45 – Ken speaks to key strategies that successful owners implement to identify the things they should be focused on 16:59 – The importance Ken places on having a rock solid value system 18:44 – Dr. Pete and Dr. Stephen take a moment to promote Chiro Match Makers 20:05 – Advice Ken would give to ‘super-performers' in the chiropractic industry 32:58 – Why the role of the COO cannot be understated EPISODE QUOTES“I always joke that I'll write a book someday called, ‘Being Number Two' because I've been a number two at almost every single company that I've been at since I was twenty-eight years old.” (05:41)“One of the biggest hurdles that I've found is that entrepreneurs found a way to make their way. And they do it the way they view that it's comfortable for them to be successful. And the more that they can break away from that and say, ‘I want an outcome,' the better.” (11:27)“There's a couple different ways that normally every problem can be solved. That's one anchor which is this belief that you're focused on outcomes. You're not just focused on how you do it, you're focused on what outcome you want, because that will empower people to focus on those outcomes.” (12:26) (Ken)“You have to be careful that the individuals that you put in your organization don't stray from your value system.” (17:30)“The first thing I would say is commit to mentoring, commit to teaching, commit to monitoring and measuring. But let them do it. Don't manager, mentor. Because you'll be amazed at what people can do if you give them an opportunity.” (28:27)LINKS MENTIONEDKen's LinkedInPegaSystems' WebsiteDr. Stephen's LinkedInDr. Peter's LinkedInThe Remarkable CEO WebsiteDr. Stephen's Book – The Remarkable Practice: The Definitive Guide to Build a Thriving Chiropractic BusinessChiro Match Makers WebsiteSchedule a Brainstorming call with Dr. PeteDownload your copy of the 90-Day CEO Project Planner here

Summary: What is the ideal skill set, personality, and role for a client relations person? For some, this person is not a value add to the client, and merely manages communication. This can be a slippery slope. For others, there is no one dedicated to the client relationship. A healthy relationship is arguably the most important factor to success. And the skills and systems required to do this at scale are not easy to come by. Finding the right person for the role means not only the right experience, but also the right qualities and personality for the job. Can the person in this role lead with emotional intelligence and provide real value beyond just managing communication? Can they LEAD the client? What are some systems and processes to keep this on track? Finding a mutually beneficial balance and a relationship that is deeply rooted in trust sets you up for a long-term business relationship. This will not only benefit your clients, but also your team. Today we dissect all of this in our businesses.   Top 3  Curtain Pulls in this episode:  Your Client Success Manager has to be a genuine value add to your organization- not just a traffic cop for communication. They are able to add genuine value to your clients by challenging them and helping them think through challenges and stay on track for success.  Teaching clients leadership skills by example Your Client Success Manager must be a leader. It’s safe to assume that people don’t come with genuine (or natural) leadership skills.  Don’t create or allow ongoing toxicity. Part of your client success system should include awareness of how the relationships are impacting your internal team members. Be aware of burnout. Be aware of boundaries. Have guidelines for behavior and follow them and enforce them kindly. And ultimately if a client is hurting your team, you must remove that client.    For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [2:41] Bob: “This morning I thought we could talk about client services- when I say client services, maybe client relationships, things like that.. In order to scale properly and grow, you really have to have a strong client services plan in place… and the right people that do nothing but focus on client services.”  [3:28] Ken: “You can be really good at something but still have a really difficult time making people happy with what you do.”  [4:20] Bob talks about how having the right people in place to manage those client relationships means you’re also able to continue building relationships within that organization.  [5:24] Brad: “I think it comes down to being intentional with your business, as far as what exactly are the internal processes to make sure that you do what you can do to make sure your client is successful.”  [6:33] Ken speaks about what Metacake has put into place and found successful for both the company and their clients.  The person that manages the relationships has to be a genuine value add as far as experience, knowledge, know how, to really gain the trust of the prospect and the client through that process.  Nobody likes to be sold to, so the salesperson role really can’t be just a salesperson, but a success-oriented role.  [8:20] Bob shares his experience being that person as a single-owner business- there was confusion sometimes from clients when he wasn’t around because he was the one leading that charge to bring them in. [9:06] Brad: “I’ve seen a lot of different approaches to client relationships and I see the account manager who comes in and sometimes they just don’t have the breadth of experience, so they literally can’t help their clients.”  [9:44] Ken: “For a lot of personalities, it frustrates them, because it slows them down.” He shares that in traditional larger agencies, there are a lot of those non-value added role that slow down processes.  [10:45] Brad: “What I’ve found is that they’re always going to seek the people that they know understand… that will for sure get it right… it also depends a lot on the age of the client as well.” Clients with more experience will expect to work with someone that can speak their language, experience-wise. They don’t want someone working with them that they have to drag along, and you also don’t want to wind up as a commodity that isn’t bringing any real value to the brand.  [12:07] Ken talks about the importance of leadership skills when it comes to working with clients. Not only having industry experience, but also experience leading things in general. This should be a prerequisite, being able to lead and having the experience and knowledge to do so.  Everyone that works with the client and leads them in any way also has their hands on the project in some way. This has helped to prevent having one single person who does all the communicating. [14:15] Bob asks: “Do you think you could find someone who doesn’t have the age and experience but still can be a really good client manager and can lead?” Short answer: Absolutely! [15:00] Brad speaks about people who work inside of your team- if they have a deep-rooted interest in the business and how it functions, they can be a great candidate for client management.  Sometimes your client will make you very very upset, and you have to have restraint, so it takes the right personality to deal with stress in a healthy way and also lead effectively. [15:38] Ken shares about finding the balance between being in relationship with your client while also detaching enough that you can maintain healthy boundaries and lead effectively. [16:19] Brad shares one of the core goals and values in his company, that they want to make every client feel like a superstar.  Being friendly can be okay in some ways, “but I think you also have to make sure to know that this is a business relationship, and if they’re not happy with your services they’re going to go someplace else.”  When your client always feels like they’re being served, when objectives are being met and goals are being reached, there is more forgiveness when you make a mistake.  [17:43] Ken asks “Are there boundaries that you draw in your own mind… so that you don’t get too emotionally invested?”[18:07] Bob responds that boundaries will be different for different personality types, and different clients will also impact the way you speak with them.  [20:05] Ken talks about how drawing those boundaries and keeping them up can be difficult, and client relationships “rarely continue forever.” Some client losses can feel like a really bad breakup! There’s a human side of business and a practical side, and you have to find a way to balance those and keep them in balance. [21:00] Brad talks about Anthem writing boundaries into contracts, and using them to bring that awareness back around if things get difficult. “In the end we try not to put too many roadblocks up…” [22:35] Brad continues, talking about how just going above and beyond with projects isn’t enough to build that trust and enter into the ideal client relationship, where you can help them by bringing ideas and strategies “to get over a hurdle,” THAT is where the real service is.  Reading between the lines of their words and hearing their frustrations, then providing solutions or alternatives for those frustrations is the sweet spot of client service and building client relationships.  If you can get someone in your Client Services role that can do that, that is attuned to that sort of conversation- you’re set up for success.  [24:50] Ken talks about Metacake’s push to launch more coaching type of engagements with clients. “You’re more helping them overcome challenges and problems, and helping them make decisions for themselves, giving feedback, your experience, that kind of thing.”  Often that coaching will include bringing awareness to opposing goals clients may have, or goals that pull in opposite directions. Having the strategic eye on these things takes a certain personality type. Breaking down OKR’s (Objectives and Key Results) forces you to have a really clear image of the objectives, then ties in the metrics and measurements for reaching that objective.  [27:57] Brad talks about working with clients who are not natural leaders, and being aware of that when developing a relationship with your client is very important.  [28:37] Bob asks The Guys for some practical tips for managing clients, and gives one example that he lives by. “Stop using words like ‘You guys should do this… you should. Why don’t we try this, Why don’t we try that,’” Get into the habit of saying “we” instead of “you” so that your client feels more like a partner and remembers that you’re on the same team.  [30:16] Brad agrees with Bob, and stresses the importance of making sure you’re still in the drivers seat and leading them effectively.  In emails with clients, he uses “Hey Team” to reinforce the team feeling Oftentimes, the lead on your end will become somewhat disenfranchised with the client, leading to feelings of frustration and impediments in communication.  [31:53] Bob: “The reality is that you’re either the savior or the scapegoat. Sometimes you’re both, depending on the day… How do you navigate that?” [32:26] Brad suggests having a couple of different personality types in the client communication, so that there is someone there who is more operations driven and is keeping everyone on track. So the other team member is freed up to manage the relationship more effectively.  [33:40] Ken talks about team makeup, what he calls positive tension between personality types. “If everyone just serves the client, no matter what, you’re going to go out of business. Metacake has a project strategist who is the client hero, the client proponent and goals advocate. Then there is an operations project manager, who is in charge of keeping the client relationship really strong and whose primary worries don’t include budget and/or timeline. When the team discusses a specific issue or email from the client, there are two opposite pulls as those two roles discuss options. That creates a positive tension that yields great results! Tip 2: Everyone on the team that speaks to clients should be adding value, and be able to state what that value is from Metacake’s perspective.  [36:31] Bob brings the conversation back around to the current state of the world. With the typical “wining and dining” clients to win their contracts GONE, what is the equivalent of that today? [37:05] Ken talks about his experience at a dinner with a very wealthy prospective client. He handed over his business card and the prospect immediately assumed their rates were high because of the feeling and look of the business card. So even in that experience, the situation was misleading and started things off on a non-value added note.  [39:56] Bob talks about how in some situations it wouldn’t be appropriate to bring up likes/dislikes of the clients. But if you’re going to invest in and do work for this client, do some research about them, what they like and are interested in. And keep those details in the back of your mind so that if an opportunity to strengthen that relationship comes up later on, you can act on it.  [40:35] Ken says that the goal is to create genuine interest and show that you really care, and do that in as many ways as you feel is appropriate. But “the intention and the discipline behind this is easy not to do.”  [41:15] Bob “I think that’s a good emotional intelligence piece” and working on knowing how to bring about those connections is a skill that takes time and intention to hone.  [42:05] Brad talks about hitting a sweet spot with a client in the relationship, when they start to pour back into you and lift you up to other prospective clients.  [43:02] Bob asks for some other tips from The Guys, any processes they have in place to evaluate the client relationships at the 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year mark.  [43:50] Ken speaks sending out questionnaires and incentivizing them with Amazon gift cards, etc. Often that doesn’t work and so Metacake has the client in and films them answering a series of questions about the brand and working with Metacake as a client. This is content creation at its best!  Asking the clients questions about how they’ve increased their brand awareness and achieved their goals with Metacake is powerful, and can be very inspiring to other brands and businesses who are looking to do the same thing. [45:00] Bob talks about his company having open house type Christmas parties where client can briefly stop by and hang out. Sending gifts of food during the Holidays is great, but also think about New Years gifts, or Christmas in July.  [48:35] Ken, when talking about whether to include a client feature in your newsletter or something similar. “If we’re going to talk about a client, it’s gotta be giving them benefit and highlighting them. Here’s what they’re doing, it’s really great, they’ve got a great product, oh by the way we work with them and it was fun.”  [50:45] Brad mentions the difficulty of managing the relationship between the client and the person working directly with them. Having the emotional intelligence to know whether the role should be changed, or the management should be tweaked in some way.  [51:50] Ken talks about Metacake having Daily Stand Up meetings where those issues can be discussed with the team and have more objective input. This helps to combat that communication fatigue that can come with burnout, etc.  You have to assume that people aren’t great leaders, you have to assume that there is coaching and teaching involved in the client management process.  [53:30] Brad talks about past experiences of having client managers who leave every meeting in tears- measure personality types, measure emotional health at the given moment and swap people out as necessary!  [54:32] Ken says that at Metacake they’ve worked with “wolves” on the client side who are bullies and really have a negative impact on team health. It’s your job as the owner to step into that and make the tough decisions, have the tough conversations.  [55:31] Bob wraps up this episode, saying that in order to grow and scale you HAVE to invest in the client management/ client relationship side of things effectively. 

Zach sits down with Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco Healthcare, and they talk about being an executive while Black, COVID-19, and advice around navigating corporate America on this special Monday episode.Connect with Ken on LinkedIn.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and wow. You know, I'm recording this on May 27th, and it's challenging times, right? You know, we talk about Living Corporate being a platform that amplifies and centers marginalized voices at work, and one thing about--I'm gonna just speak from a Black perspective--is that we say that being Black is exhausting, like, that's a common phrase you'll hear, like, on Twitter and stuff. Black people say it, and we'll say it also in conversation, like, "Being Black is exhausting," but the reality is being Black is incredible. It's the systems of oppression, and that's cultural, that's political, that's legal, that's legislative, that's economic, that's judicial, that's... like, these systems come together and make being Black exhausting, and so I come to you today, you know, I'm excited, I'm thankful to be here, and I'm thankful wherever you are. I see you. I appreciate you. You're loved and you're supported. You know, we exist to really be a space, a digital oasis if you will, of encouragement and affirmation, and so we do that on this platform by having real talk in a corporate world. We interview CEOs. We interview executives and entrepreneurs and authors and activists, scholars, authors, all types of folks, really tackling perspectives from marginalized experiences and marginalized identities, marginalized meaning underestimated, underrepresented, under-supported, and we do that every week, and today is no different, y'all. We have Ken Miller. Ken Miller is, man, one of the few CEOs we've had on the platform. I just want to actually get right into it. Ken, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ken: I'm doing fantastic, Zach. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: Oh, man. I have to ask, you know, how are you and your family doing during this time?Ken: As you said, these are very, very difficult times, challenging for all of us. In fact, you know, this COVID-19 crisis has truly impacted my family. Unfortunately I lost my grandmother to COVID-19. I lost my uncle to COVID-19. My mother-in-law tested positive and is now in the hospital. So this pandemic is truly impacting all of us, in particular my family and moreover people of color around the world, and we gotta do everything we can to try to get this thing under control, Zach.Zach: Absolutely. You know, I want to get right into it, right? Every now and then, like, I'll read this huge bio for folks, right, but I really want to give you space to talk to us a little bit about yourself, talk about your company, your background, and just what you want folks to know about you.Ken: Yeah, for sure. I come from very humble beginnings. I grew up in Westchester County in New York City in a very small town called Greenberg, New York, and growing up in Greenberg, we all grew up like family, and I was fortunate enough to have a very tight network of family and friends that really supported me in my development, made sure that I did everything I had to do academically as well as build some decent athletic skills. And I was fortunate enough to go to college. In fact, I was the first member of my family to go to a four-year university and actually graduate, and fortunately enough I was able to get into school via football, but while there I grew a passion for academics and ultimately wanting to make a difference. You know, I was fortunate enough to jump into the healthcare industry shortly after undergrad where I just continued to progress, be given more and more responsibility. I had a network of leaders that supported me along the way in my development, continued to challenge me and give me new opportunities, and throughout this journey that's been over 30 years I've been fortunate enough to lead organizations here in the U.S. for major Fortune 100 companies like Pharmacia Pfizer, like Roche Labs, like Novo Nordisk. I even had the opportunity to serve as an ex-patriot in Basel, Switzerland for about two and a half years while with Roche Labs, and I believe that that journey, those experiences, actually prepared me to take on more of a leadership role in healthcare, and currently I am the president and CEO of Nasco Healthcare. We are a healthcare company focused on the development of simulation training solutions for first responders, such as folks who are in the frontlines right now fighting COVID-19, nurses and doctors, to ensure that they build the skills so that they are ready to meet the needs of patients however they present themselves, and so I'm very happy and excited to be on this podcast with you, talk to you a little bit about my background and my journey, but the long and short of it is, Zach, that I come from humble beginnings and I feel very fortunate and thankful to be in this role today to try to make a difference in healthcare. Zach: You know, let's talk about your role. You're the second Black male CEO we've had on the show. I'm curious to get your perspective on what you would say are the biggest factors that have led you to the seat that you're at in Nasco today.Ken: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that it is 1. my faith, as well as my support network, that has led me here. You know, trusting in God, trying to be the best person that I can be, living my life with integrity I think has positioned me well to take on this opportunity. And then having a strong support network. My wife, she's my #1 champion. She's always in my corner. She always helps me make good decisions, as well as my broader network of family members and friends who coach me along the way. I think those two elements have prepared me to be here as CEO and president. Don't get me wrong - I was very fortunate to go to a four-year school, get my undergrad education. I went and got my MBA from the University of Chicago, one of the best business schools in the world. I've worked all around the globe, so I've had great experiences, and I think that those things coupled with the first two points that I made have absolutely prepared me to take on this type of leadership role, Zach.Zach: I'm curious, especially during times like these, and we're coming up right after this whole Amy Cooper situation and the continual just brutalization of Black bodies that continues to be broadcasted on, like, major media platforms... I'm just a manager, but even I as a manager, I feel like my safety net has gotten smaller and smaller as I've progressed in my career. Am I overstating the pressure to succeed as a Black male CEO and, like, the small degree or the lack of grace that you may have the higher up you get? Am I overstating that?Ken: No, not at all, Zach. I do believe that our circles are getting smaller, and the challenges of assuming these leadership roles for men of color are even more and more difficult.Zach: So let's talk about that. How do you manage that stress for you? Like, how do you manage the stress of having to constantly be on your Ps and Qs? What does that look like for you? Ken: Yeah, absolutely. Let me come to the stress element second. Let me start with how to get there, okay? One is you've got to have to an unwavering belief in yourself. This makes me reflect back when I was in third grade, and my third grade teacher seeing me as a Black boy in class tried to put me in a remedial reading group, and my mom was not having it, Zach. My mom marched up to the school and she told that teacher, "There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. He has all of the capabilities as any other kid. All you've got to do is put him in the position and challenge him and hold him accountable." From that moment on, I committed myself to being my absolute best, to having a commitment to excellence in everything in which I do, and so that brings me back to this unwavering confidence and belief in yourself and never giving up, Zach, and I think that if you do that you will achieve your greatest opportunities. You will fulfill your greatest opportunities. Now let me get to your question about the stress, right? You know, listen, obviously being president and CEO comes with a number of pressures. It's a 24 hours a day, 7 day a week job. You're never off. There's always a flood or a fire that you've got to deal with. There's always a great opportunity that needs your input to lean on, to pursue. So it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I think that early on when I assumed this role it was far more challenging and far more stressful because I didn't have the experiences and I reacted to each individual situation with everything. I think that what I've learned, Zach, is to treat triumph and disaster as the true impostor of which it is. I try not to get too high when things are going great. I try not to get too low when things are going poorly. Second aspect of it is that I realize through my career to be successful it's going to take a team, therefore I try to gain organizational alignment and input and have strong trust and agreement among my team, because I know what it's gonna take to win is that it's gonna take the collective effort of all of us working together to achieve our aim or overcome any individual challenge. As a result of that, I think that I'm managing the stress much, much better. Because I don't get too high or too low, as well as because I lean on the capabilities and strengths of my teammates, recognizing that I don't have to take it on all on my own, that there are others that are in this with me to help me solve these challenges.Zach: What does it look like for you to navigate white fragility and build relationships and coalitions of trust with folks that don't look like you, considering where you sit as an executive?Ken: Hey, that's tough, right? You know, it's much easier for us to connect and bond with those that look like us, talk like us, walk like us. It's far easier. But at the same time, that's not the world or the environment in which I work in, right? It never has been, from the minute I walked into corporate America. I've always been surrounded by predominantly Caucasian males and to some degree Caucasian females, very few minorities. And so what I've learned to do throughout my career is find my authentic self, Zach. Be me. Be the best Kenny that Kenny can be and always present that to others, and I think that with me being authentic and genuine I connect better with others, as well as I can have more candid, open and honest conversations about things that are working and things which are not working. Sometimes, you know, my culture--listen, I'm a little direct, you know? I'm a little forward, but I want to make sure that we're having the real conversation and we're not sweeping any issues or concerns under the rug. And so with doing that I think that I've built really strong, long-lasting, trusting relationships with those which I've worked with. If you ever look on my Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook page, you'll see all of my colleagues throughout my 30-year career who are still my friends, who still recognize me for having a contribution in their development and helping them to progress and get to where they are today, and many of them are my Caucasian counterparts.Zach: Let's talk a little bit about Nasco and your journey in healthcare and, like, why this industry specifically.Ken: You know, it's very interesting. Zach, when I came out of undergrad graduating from the University of Albana in 1990, I just wanted to get a high-paying job, you know? So I wanted to get paid, so I jumped out and accepted a role down on Wall Street with Morgan Stanley. You know, I could see my future. I thought I'd be living the high life like The Wolf on Wall Street, but I quickly realized after a short six months in that industry that, although I was succeeding, I was growing, I was learning, I wasn't being fulfilled or personally rewarded, and so I got recruited by a pharmaceutical company and ultimately accepted that role, and I immediately began to flourish, and what I found was that I was able to do good while doing good, and what I mean by that is I was able to grow professionally, be successful, achieve my professional goals and aims, but at the same time I was able to bring healthcare solutions to physicians and nurses that were ultimately on the frontlines of impacting and saving people's lives, and from that I was tremendously rewarded. So throughout my 30-year career I have, with all of my passion, jumped into the deep end with these communities, whether it be the diabetes community, whether it be the psychiatric community, whether it be the simulation and training community of frontline healthcare workers, because I truly believe that the work in which I've done over my 30-year plus career and even to this day is really making a difference in helping to ultimately save lives and make our communities even better.Zach: So we're in extraordinary times. Can we talk a little bit about how Nasco's business is adapting to the market and challenges presented by COVID-19?Ken: Yeah, this is a very challenging time, Zach, and for us we've tried to modify and adjust our business to these times. First and foremost, the number one thing is to keep everyone safe, both the associates that work within Nasco Healthcare as well as their family and friends and the communities in which they live. So what we've first done is that we've enabled as many associates within the organization that have the ability to work from home to work from home. For all of those who are essential and critical to maintaining our business on a day-to-day basis within the building, we've instituted all of the normal social distancing measures, staying 6 feet apart, having mask requirements, limiting vendors into the corporate facilities, putting our manufacturing associates on staggered shifts to limit the bringing together in common areas like lunch rooms and break areas. We disinfect the entire facility from top to bottom four times a day, as well as we've put extra care into disinfecting all of our products as they are being shipped out of the building and ultimately arriving at our customers. So safety is the #1 priority. In terms of meeting the demands and the needs of the markets in this changing time, we've created more remote learning solutions. So we've partnered with universities, healthcare systems and governments around the world to create simulation training solutions that can be delivered digitally online so that healthcare professionals can continue to get certified and trained so that they are ready and prepared to meet the challenges of this pandemic. The last thing that we've done is that we've ramped up the production of our life-saving solutions, specifically our CPR solutions, our intubation heads, as well as our patient communication simulators that aid healthcare professionals in diagnosing COVID-19 during this crisis. Zach: And, you know, I'm hearing the parameters and the measures that you're taking. I'm curious, with that in mind, and as we look at--you know, folks are saying that this may be going on until, like, next year. You know, when you look at the next 18 months, what are you most excited about with Nasco?Ken: Yeah. I'm really excited about our ability to be able to take training from the classroom and take it into the home. With our digital remote learning solutions, I think that we have the ability to really help healthcare and first responders to be ready to 1. navigate through this crisis as well as be better prepared in the future. As well, we are ramping up our production of COVID-19 simulation solutions so that... and I shouldn't say just COVID-19 simulation solutions, Zach, but pandemic response simulation solutions so that once we conquer this pandemic and we use these solutions, we'll be much better prepared for those in the future. I think if there's one thing that we learned from the COVID-19 crisis is that we were not ready. We were not prepared as a nation or as a globe, and so I believe that our local, state and federal government leaders have clearly identified how woefully unprepared we were. So at Nasco Healthcare, our aim and our goal is to ensure that everyone be ready, and so we are building those life-saving solutions that help first responders and healthcare professionals be ready when the time comes. So whether it be to diagnose a patient during this crisis, whether it be to train a respiratory specialist on how to put someone on a ventilator, or to be able to resuscitate a patient that's in cardiac arrest that's right by the bedside or on the side of a car accident. All of these solutions we believe we will be coming forward with over the next 12-18 months that show a very bright future for Nasco Healthcare, and we ultimately hope to help the community be better prepared in the future. Zach: So before we let you go, what advice do you have to the marginalized professionals, especially now, in the workplace?Ken: Yeah. Well, I'm one of those marginalized professionals in the workplace, and so the first thing I would recommend is to believe in yourself. Never allow anyone to steal your confidence. That's #1. Have an unwavering belief in yourself. Two, commit yourself to excellence. Do the absolute best you can do at whatever you are doing. My mom taught me at a very young age that if you're gonna clean a bathtub or clean a toilet, scrub it until it shines, you know? Give it your best. Give it your all. Third is to build your network, right? Find individuals that you believe that you can learn from and ask questions. Be inquisitive. And last but not least is you've got to get up every day, right? You've got to get up every day and commit yourself to doing all that you can to grow. I think that there's one thing that I want the marginalized associate to remember, and one of my leaders taught me this a few years back in my career, Linda [?], one of my fondest leaders in my career, and what Linda told me was, "Ken, you might feel like you've got your back against the wall and there's only one way out of this situation, but remember, there are hundreds of options. You just have to down-select to the option that you think is most attractive for you." So Zach, for that marginalized associate, the last thing I'd want them to remember is that you've got many, many options to succeed. Don't believe there's only one path to your success. But choose a path and then get on that road, and if you find yourself deviating, course-correct, but stay focused, stay committed, continue to believe in yourself and I'm confident that you will achieve your goals and your aims. Chase your dreams. Never give up.Zach: You know, Ken, I gotta tell you, I appreciate your energy, man. Before we let you go, any shout-outs?Ken: I would just like to thank you, Zach, for allowing me the opportunity to be a part of this podcast. I'd like to thank Tina Chang and the pioneering collective for the work in which they do on my behalf, and I would just like to thank all of my friends and family who have supported me throughout my career that have allowed me to get to where I am now. I would just pray that everyone stay safe and stay healthy, and I'm wishing all of you and your families, you know, positivity as you navigate through this COVID-19 pandemic.Zach: All right, Ken. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. We do this every single Tuesday. Make sure you check us out. We're all over Barack Obama's internet, okay? So if you type in Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod and on Instagram @LivingCorporate. Until next time, you've been talking to Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco--CEO and president of Nasco Healthcare. Peace.

Summary: We all want new streams of new business, and today’s guest shares how they were able to build a healthy business serving other agencies. We’ve talked about the value of partnerships and collaboration with other agencies as a source of new business before and Oyova is a prime example of that. We also discuss the pros and cons of having business partners. And we get another look at how an agency is dealing with the effects of COVID-19. Tune in as Jon shares his experiences (good and bad) with business partners, talks about the impact that technology has had on his career journey, how Oyova has held up during the last 6 months of extreme disruption, and what he expects of the remainder of 2020.    Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode:  Consider other agencies as potential partners rather than competition. If the character is high, then risks are low. When determining whether someone is a good business partner for you, ask yourself if you’d mind getting a call from that person on a Saturday morning. If you don’t LIKE your partner in life, a business relationship is sure to fail.  Maintaining steady business growth through any disruption means applying Positive, Persistent Pressure in sales scenarios. Speak to the heart of your client’s business, and remind them of the services you offer and how it would benefit them.    For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders   About our Guest:  Jon Tsourakis: President and co-owner of Oyova, a Florida-based, full-service technology and marketing agency. He is the leader of a Mastermind for Digital Agencies and host of “The Climb”, a podcast where agency owners and marketing leaders tune in to get growth tips and strategies for growing their businesses.  Learn more about Oyova Join the Mastermind: DigitalMastermind.com Check out The Climb on Apple Podcasts!   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [1:08] Ken introduces our guest, Jon Tsourakis. President and co-owner of Oyova, a technology and marketing agency. John is in charge of sales and marketing while his partner handles the production and operation of the business. They’re based in St. Petersburg, FL. John also leads a digital mastermind group for agencies.  [2:52] Bob asks John to tell us about his agency.  [3:01] John responds: There are about 30 people on their team between two offices. They focus predominantly (60%) of their business on development. They also do marketing services for companies that are over $2 million, all shapes and sizes above that. In addition they work with a lot of agencies and help with their overflow work. [3:38] Bob: “Is it full service? Do you specialize in anything specifically?”[3:46] John responds that they are full service, although that pains him because there are so many great arguments for specialization.  Biggest strengths are understanding the mechanics of technology and  marketing.  On the marketing side, “we can create some really impressive lead growth through  third engine optimization.” [4:20] Ken: “It sounds to me like you are specialized, it’s just not industry specialization… one of your specialties seems to be this relationship with agencies. [4:50] Brad asks if the work they do for other agencies is mostly dev work.  [4:58] John responds that 90% of what they do is dev work. “A lot of agencies will have one or two developers on their staff… but that’s just not in their wheelhouse, so we come in a fill that gap.”[5:25] Brad asks what John thinks the percentage is of agencies out there that don’t have deep dev in-house. [6:05] John: “I would say it’s probably 85% of agencies that don’t have a super deep tech bench. They’re very focused and specialized and they have a developer that can wear some other hats…” but ultimately most of them don’t have the experience in development that his agency can add.  [6:28] Bob: “I’m curious to know of the agencies that you work with- are they typically traditional older agencies? Are they digital agencies that don’t have the depth? Are they hybrids? What does your client makeup look like?” [6:47] John: “Some of them have just moved away from paper in the last few years and have embraced what the internet is… other are very advanced platinum HubSpot partners that just run into situations that are outside of what they’re great at… there are others that are amazing design agencies that have really good front end developers who run into overflow that they will send to us because they know we can take care of it.”  Other than that, many want to take on an ERP (Enterprise Resource Management) based project because they can see the revenue in that and they can bring Oyova on at the partner level. [7:45] Ken talks about recent episodes about cost and pricing. Oyova serves agencies, and one of the things they have to accommodate for is cost. Agencies are selling at a certain price that you have no control over, so cost has to be below that. “How do you make that model work?” [8:07] Jon responds- cost is definitely a factor. They sell everything in blocks of hours, so the more hours you purchase then the lower your cost will be. Some agencies buy a LOT of hours, just to have access to their team.  “Others will just do it on a project basis… when agencies are white labeling someone else, the really smart ones get sick of that because they realize the inefficiency in it.”  [9:26] Brad asks about billing- do they bill the client directly, or do you bill through the parent agency you’re working with?” Jon responds that it depends on the agency that they’re working with, they try to be respectful of how they want the relationship managed. [9:55] Bob asks if they have built this model intentionally and whether they aim primarily for agencies or individual clients.  [10:09] Jon gives a brief history of how he and his business partner met. It was an accidental discovery at first, they were a marketing agency with two developers, they’d get overflow from other agencies and then after 8 years realized it was a great business model.  [11:57] Ken asks Jon for a deeper history of his business relationship with his partner and the pros and cons of that relationship. He also asks about what Jon expects for the next few months within his company. First, Jon’s story. [12:28] Jon: His father was a master carpenter and builder, so he was part of the family business. He met a guy at school that had a marketing company that worked in the healthcare space. He worked with this guy for a while, and in 2009 he decided to start his own agency.  Around 2013, 2014 he realized that partnership wasn’t working and they had a disastrous breakup, Jon was left high and dry.  He decided to work with his current partner and over the years they developed a great working relationship.  Jon says the best part of that relationship is that they can fill in the gaps in each other's strengths and weaknesses. Where Jon sees shiny things, his partner sees dull things and can bring him back to earth when excitement takes over.  [15:16] Jon continues: “For years, we’ve just been fighting the good fight, trying to be an agency in a world of sameness, create differentiation… a merger sounded like a really good idea based on the technology depth and the strategic advantage of being a strong partner.” [16:13] The guys ask for details about that bad partner relationship.  Jon responds that he was a brilliant developer but just not on the same page about a lot of communication things, there were some psychological differences in the way they thought about professionalism. The client called and strongly advised that unless that partner went away, there would be serious problems for their company.  There was a huge vulnerable, humble moment that allowed him to realize that the relationship was destructive. [17:22] Bob asks for some advice based on those learning experiences.  [17:37] Jon: “The direct and gentle communication… he just couldn’t deal with people.” Do business with someone who you wouldn’t mind getting a phone call from on a Saturday morning. You have to LIKE the person you’re working with.  [18:12] Ken confirms that concept of direct and gentle communication- even in the face of disrespect in return, you always have to respond in a direct and gentle manner. It’s really about basic respect.  [18:40] Brad asks for advice for how to approach things in a direct and gentle way while things are heated or when there is stress in the company. What does that mindset shift look like? [19:20] Jon: It’s about setting a foundation, and asking if you’re being logical and not emotional. It’s great to have those conversations with partners and asking yourself constantly what the logical next steps are. Be aware of your own tendencies and allow for those weaknesses in logic that you may have.  [20:13] Brad asks how they manage clients who are very reliant on them, who are more attached than an agency would be.    Jon: “We have an agreement that’s evergreen with our client, so they’re continually getting a percentage for essentially not doing anything just based on the engagement that they helped us create.”    [22:25] Bob asks about the longest contract they have that an agency brought to them.    Jon responds that it’s 8 years- that’s a great contract!   [23:06] Brad talks about how the more you’re in bed with technology that drives revenue for your client… “there’s always a fear that you’re going to get canned… because you become a commodity.”  [24:32] Brad asks “What kind of stuff do you do in the development world?”[24:50] Jon responds: Mostly websites, some entire technological infrastructure for some companies where it’s essentially their ERP. “Ranges from little website integrations, all the way to the entire technological skeleton of the company.” [28:00] Ken asks how the last few months have been managed for Jon. What was it like in the beginning of quarantine, what was it like through that process, and how has business gone since then, and if any of these things have changed how they run overall. [29:10] Jon: The theme of 2020 was going to be The Climb, and it turned out to be more true than they thought. They came up with a plan over Zoom, and decided to stay focused on clients, closing business as much as possible. They realized very quickly that their team could definitely perform and provide results from home, and have surprised themselves with their productivity.  [31:52] Brad affirms that it’s been hard- and congratulates Jon on their success through Covid.  [32:40] Ken: “What area of your business grew? Was it new business or existing business? Is there a difference there?”  [34:14] Jon talks about how they were able to extend or increase their marketing packages, they really talked up this being “the time” to invest in online business. If you come to the table with logical, competent people and a plan, you’re set up for the highest chance of success!  [36:12] Jon talks about what the next 6 months might look like. “The path forward and the recession is going to be different for everyone. There’s going to be pocket recessions based on specific industries. And some aren’t going to feel it at all.”  [37:00] Ken asks how this may change going forward, and what sort of opportunities he might see. [37:12] Jon talks about how the challenge of Covid is actually exciting for him, although he feels guilty about that at times. Business owners have been really lucky over the last 10 years, so now you really get to see what you’re made of.  There will likely be a lot of acquisition happening, but ultimately he feels positioned for the best chance of success. [38:30] Ken asks “How can you package up what you actually are selling in different ways?” This is something that Metacake has done well through the quarantine.  [39:42] Brad asks if there are any new products or service offerings that have come up during Covid for Jon’s company.  Other than rapid messaging via popup websites or email blasts.  [40:20] Brad asks what sort of packages of services other than development Oyova offers.  [40:39] Jon:  Other than the mastermind group, one event per year that is a collective knowledge base. “I think creating that space for all these agencies to come together and just be open and share and be transparent is important.”  Oyova spends a lot of time helping agencies scope out projects, helping them win those projects and making it an enjoyable experience to work with them.  [50:44] Ken: “You’ve built really high quality relationship with agencies that you get a sustainable business model through… how do you do that?” [51:28] JOn: “If you connect with somebody and build relationships that are genuine, you can go a long way.”  [52:31] Brad asks about generating new business, and their business development process.  [52:38] Jon talks about the three P’s: Positive, Persistent Pressure. If you have the right message and continually follow up with the people on that list, you’ll find them.”  [53:27] Brad asks what Jon has done to become a thought leader in his space. “What kinds of things do you do to promote yourself to new clients?

Previous DJ - "Brings up remote feed" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Live stream feedback loop" Claude Debussy - "Clair De Lune" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Live stream feedback loop" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Live radio feedback loop" Ken - "All the loops need to work" Keith Holzman - "Small clock ticking" Daft Punk - "Outlands, part II" - TRON Legacy Soundtrack Ken - "Warming up loops" Sound effect - "Ringer" George Freeman - "Fully Fashioned" Alan Braden - "Starlight Revue (a.k.a. Curtain Raiser)" Ken - "Identification: In the next moment, it sounds a different way" Claude Debussy / Nintendo - "Untitled Goose Game" Gilbert Vinter - "Mists of Illusion" Camille Saint-Saens - "Aquarium" Ronald Hanmer - "Bits and Pieces" Four Tet - "Parks" Clint Mansell - "Together We Will Live Forever" - The Fountain soundtrack Chi-Lites - "Have You Seen Her? loops" Clem Leek - "Mystery Moor clock loop" Clem Leek - "Mystery Moor" Ifny - "Howdy is the Portal to the Future" Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane loop" Dustin O'Halloran - "Opus 20" Ken - "You Have to Speak Truth" [Spontaneous monologue, over Dustin O'Halloran layers & Clem Leek clock loop. What happens if I stop being silent? Maybe they see me speaking and it gives them an idea. Other people are now realizing it's OK to speak, and we're a little crowd now, a whole lot of people, who are happy to finally start speaking some truth. And the crowd is growing, the crowd is growing... ] Full transcript of spontaneous monologue "You Have to Speak Truth" Some people speak as they think, and that's their method of thinking, is to speak. Some people never speak. Some people don't believe they have a voice. Some people have a history of having been asked to be silent. Some people are afraid of what happens when they speak, because once, maybe something happened when they spoke. Maybe it was something really bad. Maybe it just scared them a lot. Maybe they were very young when it happened. Maybe they saw something happen to somebody else. Maybe they saw an image on a screen, of something happening to somebody. And they believed that it was happening to them, because that's how our brains respond to images we see. And so forever they've been a little more silent. A little more silent, maybe a lot more silent, than they otherwise would've been. Maybe they've spent the rest of their lives being silent. Although, sometimes people start...sometimes people, they stick out a little bit. They want to see what happens. What happens if I stop being silent? I mean, I know that I'm not supposed to speak, and I know that everybody disagrees with me, and I know that even though some people agree with me, they're not going to stand up with me when I speak, because they're afraid, too. And they'd probably just like to let me go down. They're glad it's not happening to them. Maybe they're a little bit happy that I spoke and said something that was true, but they're a little bit...they're not... Maybe they, maybe they walk over next to me when I'm speaking. Maybe they see me speaking and it gives them an idea. Maybe they could, well, not quite speak, but maybe they could just stand next to me, and, well, they could... Yeah, they're just nodding their head, the person came up next to me, and they're not saying anything, but they're nodding their head. They look like they're agreeing. They're expressing some kind of support. It makes me a little less afraid to speak now. And there's someone, I can see someone off in the distance, and they, they, they're kind of, almost, it looks like they're laughing at me, and I feel scared again, I feel like maybe I shouldn't be speaking. Someone over there is taking notes. Someone over there is filming me, pointing a camera, and I don't know what's going to happen next. It makes me a little nervous that I'm speaking, that I'm saying the truth, and I, I remember, I've watched a lot of people start speaking the truth, and then find a way to start qualifying it, and checking, making sort of disclaimers, and retreating a bit. And I know I could do that, maybe I would be safe then, because I see a lot of people out there in the crowd who, well, maybe they'll leave me alone if I just do that. But, two more people have walked over next to me already, and they're shaking their heads, and, I look back at the crowd, and there's still that person who looks sort of mean and unhappy. But, I look more carefully, I start to be very methodical, and I look face by face, one by one, instead of looking where my emotion brings my eyes, and I look one by one at all the faces. And, most people aren't laughing. Most people, most people are looking, and they're...they don't have a threatening posture at all, and some of them are shaking their heads too. And, there's even someone who's smiling, someone who's nodding vigorously. And I decide to keep speaking. I decide to speak more truth. Although, I see there's a person sort of inching closer to me, and they, I can't tell what they have in their hands, but it looks like it might be something dangerous. But it, that makes me more... I start to get excited, and, although I'm scared, I realize it just, it wakes me up, and it makes things seem a little more pressing. It's a little more urgent that I say the things that are true, I say the things that I know. I realize that a lot of people also think these things, even if I don't usually hear speaking them, but, as I think about it, sometimes I do hear people speak the true things. Of course, that's why I'm so nervous about saying them, because I've seen those people get punished for speaking those things, and... but, it's going to be OK, it doesn't matter what's going to happen next, because the truth has to be said, we have to speak out what's real. Of course we do. And other people are starting to speak now. Other people are now realizing it's OK to speak, and we're sort of like a little... we're a little crowd now, a whole lot of people, who are happy to finally start speaking some truth. And the crowd is growing, the crowd is growing, because the truths that are being spoken, they're about almost everyone. The only people who stand to suffer from these truths coming out are... well, there are just a few of them. People who are taking advantage of a certain amount of power that they have, by keeping people afraid, by keeping people afraid to speak basic, obvious truths all the time. Keeping people afraid to trust their own feelings. Afraid they'll be lumped in with some or another ostracized group. They accidentally say something that overlaps with something that one of those groups says. And, wracking their brains, realizing that there's nothing really true that you could say that hasn't already been coopted by some ostracized group. That doesn't seem it make it any less true, what you're saying, and so you go on and you say it, you just, you just, you have to speak truth, because, what are you here for? And, to encourage others to know that they can accept and speak truth. And you say it, you say it passionately, but you say it with a gentleness that recognizes that what is your truth might not be everyone else's truth. You say it from your heart, as you intend for your truth to be beneficial to most people. You're able to feel, still, still carefully a judgment when you noticed that somebody is very obviously not speaking truth. You can be compassionate, and realize all the reasons why they aren't speaking truth. You can realize that somewhere along the chain, they, too, are afraid. Even if they're way up at the top, and they're exploiting the most power, even if they're very self-aware of this whole process - why wouldn't they be? There are entire books on the subject, seminars, teaching, entire courseworks, films... It's no secret how power operates. It's not a secret. It's one of those things that's sometimes just like a truth that you might be afraid to speak about, but everybody knows. And, still, you can find compassion for the people who are taking advantage of their positions of power, while also still continuing to feel judgment that that abuse of power, for whatever reason it's going on, even as you can find your heart about it, and you can imagine the heart that those people are trying to come from... You can still know that it is not the best thing for most people, and you can still stop that thing from happening. You can still stop that thing from happening. You don't have to become a bad person to stop bad things from happening - not at all. It's possible that doing nothing, and saying nothing, and just taking care of yourself, and staying really quiet, it's possible that this might be the problem, in the system of problems. The problem that you have to face right now. Not the only problem. It is a problem when somebody does something that's very harmful to many people. It's also a problem when most people who have the power to do something to stop that from happening aren't doing something. Aren't even recognizing that they are most people, and, most people - that's a lot of people. That's a lot of power. So, remember that power that you have, because you are not alone, if you try to act in the best interests of most people. You are in very massive company. And it may be scary, but you will be supported, and you will be helping the world be better for most people. Not just you, not just your friends, not just the people you aspire to be, but most people. And sometimes you have to think really hard to imagine most people, because that's a lot of people. You don't usually see most people. Sometimes you see simulated views of most people that are probably not representative of most people. Maybe go around the world and look carefully, with your eyes, not with your screens, and try to learn, what is it that most people would benefit from. And then, speak your truth. And you speak it as loud as you need to speak it, and you don't let people stop you from speaking. Not if they're doing it with force. Not if they're doing it with coersion. Not if they're doing it from a place that's so obviously not true. While there's still time... Dustin O'Halloran - "Opus 20" Keith Holzman - "Small clock ticking" Sound effect - "Cuckoo clock" Keith Holzman - "Grandmother clock strikes twelve" Boards of Canada - "Wildlife Analysis" Daft Punk - "Outlands, part II" - TRON Legacy Soundtrack Ken - "It isn't planned ahead. It's possible still to express free things" [ "Find your platforms to speak from. Eschew the technology. It's always going to be messy." ] Ken - "Identification" Boards of Canada - "Wildlife Analysis" Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross - "Complication with Optimistic Outcome" - The Social Network Soundtrack Ken - "I would invite your phone call" Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross - "Complication with Optimistic Outcome" - The Social Network Soundtrack Infinite Third - "fr ee f o rm" Peer Gynt - "Morning" - Incidental Music [The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Sir Thomas Beech. 1998 remastered] Ifny - "Howdy is the Portal to the Future" Bright Eyes - "Clairaudients" - Kill or Be Killed Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons - "Candy Girl" Tangerine Dream / State Azure - "Love On A Real Train" Pink Floyd - "It's What We Do" - The Endless River Malcolm X - "Police use statistics to make Harlem look crimnal" Malcolm X - "Police brutality speech" Daft Punk - "Outlands, part II" - TRON Legacy Soundtrack Malcolm X - "Encouraging police to take whatever measures necessary to hold negroes in check" Lullatone - "perfectly organized cleaning supplies" - The Sounds of Spring Malcolm X - "The police have infiltrated the black movement" Lullatone - "a little song about hail drops" - Room Loops Ken - "The middle of your hypnosis session, the nature of performance, illusion, a culture that doesn't value truth" Ken - "It's completely honest; you hear the mistakes the entire time" Ken - "Qualified immunity (if this exact show has never happened before, mistakes are not possible?)" [ Qualified Immunity (if this exact police misconduct has never been ruled against in court before, then it will not be ruled against in court in the future) ] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Live stream feedback loop" Lullatone - "ambient sketch #1" - Room Loops Malcolm X - "My house was bombed" Malcolm X - "By Any Means Necessary" Malcolm X - "I speak as a victim of America's so-called democracy (We have only known hypocrisy)" Cranberries - "Dreams loops" Ken - "It can't just be the few speaking to the many, it can't just be like this anymore. And don't be fooled by the online media illusion." [ Don't look up to the top. Look next to you. ] Ken - "Identification: Might be recontextualized broadcast" Cranberries - "Dreams loops" Cowboy Junkies - "Brothers Under the Bridge loop" Cowboy Junkies - "Ring on the Sill loops" Ifny - "Howdy is the Portal to the Future" Random Rab - "Rain on the World" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "This must be the beginning (show opening)" - Show #717, from June 3, 2020 [Live stream feedback of GTDR song, Ken & newest co-host song loop "This must be the beginning," Philip Glass,"This must be the end"] Lou Reed - "Street Hassle loops" Ken - "You should take your chances. We are strong when we are many. This must be the beginning." [It took its chances. You've made it all the way back to the beginning.] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "This Must Be the Beginning (you have to speak truth)" - Show #719, from June 10, 2020 https://lastever.org/show/200610

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt and we had a good discussion about how Remote Diagnostics, Remote Work and Coronaviruses, and AI and how this is changing our world.   These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Matt We're back again, and it is 7:38 on the WGAN Morning News with Ken and Matt. We are now talking to Craig Peterson is our tech guru. And he joins us now. Ken Mr. Craig, your timing couldn't be better because I got a new MacBook because my keys kept falling off the butterfly keyboard, which sucked him. I don't know why Apple did it. So I installed on I migrate everything over. And now, when I put on Chrome, and I tried to Google, I get this thing called Rona that comes on air express or something. And I clicked on it to see what it was and at someplace in Tel Aviv, that that says Nitsa. And so what's fascinating to me, by the way, Craig, I'm sure you can't do tech support from the phone right now. But uh, he got a brand new computer and did nothing. I didn't know it was already there. And on my last laptop. I mean, I thought it I identified it as like malware, right. His previous laptop, I sort of found a way around it or whatever, but like he just doesn't do anything and it's there also. Craig Yeah, but it must have happened when you migrated from your old one, hidden deep somewhere, and got installed during migration. Ken Yeah. Oh, that's why you pulled it from the old computer. I thought it was off my old computer. No, it wasn't I hit it. When I did that screen, I hit it so well, should I email Google? Should I email Chrome? Or I throw the computer against the wall? That is another option. I mean, what's this guy? If I email this guy in Tel Aviv, and said, what's this? Craig Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. For the love of God. Don't do that. Matt They did a scan. They didn't find it. I've done so, give me suggestions. Craig Well, it sounds like you got a good tech support guy there locally to figure it out. But it looks like this is coming from Google, isn't it? He's got Chrome. It comes up from Chrome. I didn't know you didn't Google. Ken When I hit a web Chrome, it comes up instead of saying, "Google," it says, "Search." And then it's a smart search. It has this air Express, Facebook, Twitter, and it's just a standard launch page, but it has this Ollie Express thing next to it. Craig It's malware. Yeah, something new, but they got installed a while ago, a month ago and migrated. Well, that sort of thing takes a little bit to fix, and I definitely can do it. I bring it down virtually. Ken I wonder if I find the mouse if my guy can do it. Craig Yeah, usually the migration, it's not a big problem. And it's, there's a lot of these types of things go around. Well, of course, the biggest one is when people install these toolbars on their browsers. There's nothing but spyware in there. It doesn't sound like that. Matt would notice the difference. The toolbar Yeah, Matt The toolbar Yeah. No, I actually, that's the first thought I had too. I tried to get rid of it. I went to see if it was an extension. It was an extension. Yeah, I think I put Malwarebytes on his computer too. It's got Malwarebytes, and I ran it, and it found nothing. So this is probably not nasty, it's just annoying. Craig Yes. Matt It's trying to sell him something. Craig Yeah. Well, hey guys, I've got to bring something up here that I did almost a week ago now. There are millions of people who are working from home currently. Remote workers, many people even trying to figure out how to start a little business at home. I almost didn't wake up for this morning. Because I've been putting on these webinars, there are nine different webinars on topics related to security, not installing these nasty browser extensions. I did two webinars yesterday. These webinars are free. We talked about a browser extension you can put onto Chrome and other browsers, that is going to save your laptop battery, it's going to speed things up. It's just going to do a whole bunch of great stuff for you. I wanted to bring up today that I again, a bunch of people signed up. My next one is on Thursday. I'm going to do two on Thursday, two on Friday, one on Sunday. And then every day next week, I'm going to be doing two of them. And we're covering all kinds of topics, including some extensions that do stop malware on your browsers. We're going to go into VPN, when can you use them? When should you use them that Norton VPN isn't going to help you at all when it's time to get into the office, using a VPN versus remote desktop software. We're going to be covering your firewalls, and What kind of a firewall should you have? The attacks prevalent right now for home users? For a network router slash firewall? How should you be trading at a Wi-Fi? What do you need to know about Wi-Fi? All of this stuff and all free. And unlike that nastiness that you've got to your machine can I'm not sitting there trying to sell you anything. These are free, and we're talking about 10 hours plus worth of some training here. I'm working from home and doing it securely. And what I'd like to do is ask people to take a couple of minutes right now, because whether you are a retiree, or you are running a 500 person company, this information is something you need to have. And we've had a great response. I love the feedback people have been giving. So that's kind of given me a little bit more energy to do this. But if you are interested, You need to be on my email list because that's where I put the announcements out. I am not one of these marketers and new million pieces of emails a day. But if you go to Craig Peterson comm slash subscribe. It is so important right now because I'm getting notifications every day almost from the FBI, about new scans that the bad guys are running against people who are working from home. It is nuts. So these are not just me lecturing, these are two, and as they are LIVE. I'm answering all your questions, live. I'm showing you how to do things. And it's I hate to say this sounds a little self-serving, but it is thousands of dollars worth of training that I'm doing for free This is to help people out. Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe to attend You're going to need you can have a computer you can use your tablet you can use your phone, your smartphone that is and make sure you've got a piece of paper and a pencil ready and handy to do stuff. And anyone who attends gets replays. I have specialized training and special thank you things are people that participate because I know it's a lot of work for you too, but, but I want to get this out right now. It is just it's so important. I don't want you to get nailed or badly by these bad guys. Matt we're talking to Craig Peterson, he's our tech guru, and he joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. No topic gets discussed without Coronavirus as part of it. Ladies and gentlemen, and so that is no exception for you, Craig, companies are trying to respond to this whole thing, and it's making them turn to what appears to be artificial intelligence. Are we creating Skynet here, in response to the Coronavirus? Should I be worried about this? Unknown Speaker 8:08 I heard that Prince Charles tested positive for Coronavirus this morning. Testing positive looks like the world might be coming to an end. Who knows, right? Yeah, here's the trick. We have a lot of companies who don't have all of the workers, and there was just a new story here at the bottom of the hour talking about the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard and some of the ironworkers trying to say, Hey, listen, we this is kind of dangerous for us. Workers are just not showing up, or they're being told not to show up. It depends on the company. The big tech companies are trying to use this artificial intelligence now. I don't like the definition that pins these days are using When it comes to artificial intelligence, that word has changed. We used to think of AI and man you too as kind of a Skynet thing. Right? Right? It the computers making decisions, it's learning, it's advancing that smarter than we are, etc., etc. We don't have that yet. It hasn't happened. And there's a lot of warnings about what might happen if that were to happen. But we don't have it. It's not artificial intelligence, and it's barely even machine learning. What it is, is pattern matching. Companies like Facebook, and many others out there right now YouTube, where you're putting content on the site, and people want to make sure that you're not racist, like saying things like President Trump is excellent, which would be horrific. If someone were to say that on Facebook, for instance, tongue firmly planted in cheek there Unknown Speaker 10:02 Who is going to censor the internet now? While they're turning more heavily to computers, machine language programming is looking for patterns, and those particular patterns are what they're calling AI. It is not artificial intelligence. There's throwing that term around again. So Skynet is not a threat. But if you are trying to start a new ad campaign on Facebook, for instance, all ads are reviewed by Facebook. It is going to take longer to get it approved, and there's going to be many more false positives. That is because AI, as they call it, is a little bit more of a curmudgeon than the people who review some of these ads and articles and posts and everything else. So yeah, it this is going to force some movement forward on this AI type front, but the singularity I think, man it is still many, many years away. Matt It is still coming, though. It is today. Ken You just wish to be here fast. Well, we're talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru joins us every Wednesday at 738. before we let you go, Coronaviruses are the story of the year, or the websites and have that the talk about screening is well you can't go to a website to get screened, but there is useful information on testing. Craig Yeah, it didn't come out, believe it or not, you can go to google.com slash Covid-19 and find information there. The symptoms are listed there. Of course, they're all over the place. The CDC has, among many others, but one of Google's companies that the company they own did launch just a few days after President Trump announced is called Verily, this primary site allows people to go on and answer a few questions. It comes up with a diagnosis of, yeah, you probably got it, which you could have got that same diagnosis from your cousin. It is very, very simple. They're adding in now where you can go to get tested because, of course, as you guys already know, they don't want you just showing up in the emergency room of a hospital, with potentially Coronavirus where you can spread it. We already know hospitals are the worst place to go if you're sick, because you can catch diseases there, you just can't get anywhere else. They don't want to add Covid-19 to that list. So you can check it out. google.com slash subscribe if you want a little more information. Unknown Speaker 12:48 All right. Greg Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us now as he always does on Wednesdays to go over the world of technology. We're going to leave it there, Craig. So we appreciate you joining us as always, and we will talk to you next week. Unknown Speaker 13:00 All right, I'll be on Saturday, of course, at 1 pm cover some more of these topics everyone needs to know. And then again that URL to sign up as Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe in here guys. Thanks a lot, Greg. Unknown Speaker 13:15 Great. Let's go to the break room, ladies and gentlemen. Go to Eric. He's got all the top stories of the day. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt and we had a good discussion about how Coronaviruses were affecting businesses and Cisco's WebEx offer for collaborating securely.  We also talked about how Apple is tightening up the types of Apps that will be in their AppStore. Here we go with Ken and Matt. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig But particularly those that are in regulated or sensitive industries. Of course, we have those right down in the south of Maine, think of those in the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard where a lot of people work. Apple, because they are trying to be sensitive to all of these security needs are even tightening them up more for businesses that deal with this. The new standard for military contracts is the CMMC, and it is coming out in June. Craig Good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson, here. They have this "Eggs and Issues" thing over in Portland, which is kind of cool. In New Hampshire, we call it "Politics and Eggs" that happens every once in a while, but Eggs and Issues, seems to be I don't know monthly. Anyhow, Ken and Matt, were over there this morning and we had an excellent chance to chat about a couple of things. I wanted to cover in better detail, and I think I did a better job with Ken and Matt than I did yesterday on WTAG talking about Coronavirus, work from home issues, and also the Mandalorian. I took a little bit of a different angle on it, which is kind of ironic because we're talking about how they shot the video for the TV show. Matt Craig Peterson, our tech guru, joins us as he always does on Wednesdays at this time to go over the world of technology. Craig, welcome to the program. Craig Hey, good morning, gentlemen. Ken You know, it's rare where I see a topic from you that just excites me as much as talking about The Mandalorian. I mean, because we never talk about lifestyle issues here. So this is so exciting. How does the Mandalorian deal with tech issues, pray-tell? Craig That almost sounds sarcastic. Ken No No, no, we love the Mandalorian Craig Okay, okay. For those who don't know, the Mandalorian is a new science fiction series that's in the Star Wars universe released recently here by Industrial Light and Magic. It is a significant change in how movies they make movies. You've seen over the years, variations, of course, I was watching Hogan's Heroes the other day, and upfront, it said CBS in color. Ken and I both remember our first color televisions and things. And then moviemaking TV making moved into the world, of course, where we have greenscreens, and they use greenscreens when an actor is trying to talk to something that isn't there. Think of the Lord of the Rings movies for that one. It had Golem who was this character that was a guy, and they put these little like golf ball things on him so that computers could track his movement and the That was neat because they put this character in that was kind of there the actor could interact with this character. But the computers put in the actual figure ultimately. And then the complete green screens that we've seen more and more of where the only thing that the actor seizes, the table, the actor, city mat, or the chair that they're in, perhaps a couple of items scattered around the room, the whole rest of the room is green. And after all of the filming is done, and it's in production, they add in all the scenery, they said the room, they said everything else. Well, what they did was the Mandalorian is entirely different. They built this room, if you will, in a stage that was 21 by 75 feet, and it was entirely screens, digital screens all around them. The actors now saw everything going on around them. The cameras were shooting on the stage exactly what would end up being in the film, if you will, at the end? It's amazing. So the actors can see these virtual objects, the directors can see the objects. One of the things that were cool about this and I watched some video of it as the Mandalorian was filmed on this stage, is that the director could say, Hey, I don't like that building's placement, and change it right there almost instantly, and move things around. Everything on the screens is dependent on the camera angles. Think about all the incredible mathematics involved in this type of production. If you look at this stage, with the naked eye, you'd see all kinds of mess and distortions in some cases. Still, the camera was seeing everything perfect. They also use these LED panels that were displaying everything to provide excellent lighting. And they had an iPad that was there, and they were able to move the lights around, brighten this up dim that up. It usually would take out a whole bunch of time. The specific names for these people are gaffers, and they are responsible for moving and setting up lights. No need for any of those people. Amazing. The crews, the director, all of the creative people, all of these subdirectories could be more flexible in production, try different approaches, and do it almost instantly. And they did all of this using video game technology. It is absolutely the future. It's going to cut production costs a lot and increase the quality of production. It's just amazing, mainly if you saw the Mandalorian. It's just a whole new thing that came right out of Industrial Light and Magic. Matt We are talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru, who joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, I don't think we can get around asking you a coronavirus question, and I did notice that Cisco is telling you to use WebEx stay at home. Don't go to those meetings. Use WebEx. Craig Yeah. Now I've got to say Cisco is something that I sell and use, but it is the only, believe me, conferencing teamwork application available, but is secure. Zoom is a very, very popular one. I'm sure a lot of people use it. I've even used it. Continue to use it off and on with people that only have the availability of zoom. But the zoom has had some major security problems. And I don't mean like a breach. I mean, what ad is designed this because it allowed direct access into your networks at the office for hackers and viruses and everything else. So all those who may be one of the easier ones to use, it is not one of the safer ones. Also, with something like WebEx, you get the advantage of the team collaboration. So obviously, I'm a proponent. You can tell by the way I'm talking about it. It just works, and it's now free due to the Coronavirus as many businesses are having people work at home. It's free for companies to use. So seriously, consider using something like this. I've used slack before, which is pretty good. But again, it's not a secure end to end platform. WebEx, I think, is the hands-down winner. A lot of businesses are going to be looking at VPN. two factor authentication tokens are something that we've talked about on the show before. Now's the time you should be using them. I've got to say, if you want to know more, I do webinars where I cover these things all the time. They are 100% completely free, not trying to sell you anything, and I've got some coming up. I'm going to try and do webinars on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday, on how to work safely from home. We're probably going to have them not just for an end-user, but also for small businesses. I teach people how they can use self-service portals to make their life a little bit easier so that the people who are trying to work from home can kind of set things up themselves and what are the pros and cons. We're putting together a little playbook, all of this stuff. I hope to get you to the point where you can work from home relatively safely. Still, I do like WebEx. I have used zoom, and it's a reasonable alternative if you're not worried about some of the significant security errors that have been made by the designers of zoom. Ken We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech guru. You can always go to Craig Peterson dot com by the way if you want to get all of this information also you can hear him on Saturdays at one o'clock on WGAN. Yeah. Um, so I'm a big user of Apple's App Store because I like apps. I understand they have a new policy to fight spam and abuse. But there some negatives to that? Craig Yeah, there, there always are some negatives. I think the pros outweigh them, however. We talked about how Google just got rid of basically millions of apps if you will. The Google Chrome Store, they just got rid of apps that people downloaded millions of times because they were spying on people and uploading the information. They got rid of those in the Google Play Store, which by the way, again, is a reason only to use the official app stores from Android. Of course, it's the Google Play Store, and for iOS, it's the Apple App Store. What Apple's done now is they've tightened up the review guidelines, because Apple reviews every app that's on the store, to help make sure that they're safe. They, of course, require apps to meet the guidelines, right. But there, they've expanded the definition of a BAM app. In other words, apps that are using the push notifications to serve ads to users, and they're limiting this the submissions of these types of apps, to trusted organizations, etc. but particularly those that are in regulated or sensitive industries. Of course, we have those right down types of industries right here in southern Maine. Think of Portsmouth Naval Shipyard where a lot of people work. Apple, because they are trying to be sensitive to all of these security needs, is even tightening them up more for businesses that deal with this. It's now called CMMC. It's the new standard coming out in June for military-affiliated companies. Anyways, there's a little bit of controversy here. But I think, ultimately, Ken, things are going to be good. It is an excellent thing. And I'll be talking more about this and VPN stuff, working from home as well. This weekend. If you want to sign up for the courses. Go to Craig Peterson dot com you can sign up right there on the homepage or any page, just sign up for my mailing list, and I'll make sure you know about them, and I'll talk more about this on Saturday. At 1 pm right here. Matt Indeed that is Craig Peterson. Ladies gentlemen. He is our tech guru, and he joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over the world of technology. Craig, thank you as always, and we will talk to you again next week, sir. Craig Gentlemen, thank you very much. Bye Bye. Thanks. All right. Ken All right, we will take a quick break here. We will go into the newsroom. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Summary:  Fear - the most detrimental emotion. What’s worse is making decisions in this irrational state. Yet so many people live and operate in this state daily. In business and in life, there is no shortage of things to incite fear. As an agency leader, you know more than most about the dangers of fear-based decision making. Honestly, most days you probably feel like King Solomon… “cut the baby in half!”. Balancing demanding clients, financial challenges, personnel issues, taxes, accounting, market shifts, and about 1 million other situations while inspiring an encouraging and transparent office culture that inspires great work on a high level can seem impossible. Well, it turns out leadership is not for the faint of heart. It’s downright hard. This is no easy task, and there is A LOT of room for fear to sneak in and sabotage your decisions. How can you create the financial stability that your business needs without turning off clients or putting your personal finances in jeopardy? Where do you turn when your brain is stuck in a state of unreality? We get vulnerable about some of our fears. We dive into strategies we have learned for coping with this pressure and what has given us the most relief and encouragement through this process.    Resources Mentioned:  A 4 Step Leadership Framework for Making Healthy Decisions Keith Cunningham CPA Masterclass: https://keystothevault.com/   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Fear is useless beyond the flag it raises about a potential threat and puts you in an irrational state not optimal for making sound decisions. Learning to control that fear and put it in its place means freedom. Health (physical, emotional, spiritual) and Preparation (planning) is the first step to clearer and more level-headed decision making. By recognizing fear and having the tools to manage it, you will be able to make better decisions and take healthier action that allow you to thrive rather than react in any situation in life and in business.   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [1:25] Bob: “We wanted to talk today about fear, anxiety, and not being controlled by it… How does it control you in the business situation, for those of us who are running agencies, work at agencies, engaged with agencies, whoever you are…” [2:06] Bob: I failed at this miserably in my business and I was driven by fear many times and made a lot of bad decisions that cost my business, myself, my people that work for me… I learned a ton, I am thankful for that… I know I was not alone, even though I felt like I was.” Fear-based decision making is something that “plagues and can wreak havoc… but can also be a really good way to shore up and protect your business.” [2:57] Brad relates fear in business with thinking about the unknown.  “For me personally, it’s not having clarity on my business that immediately brings me fear… I have to get to the point where I don’t have to know everything because I can’t control everything.”  [3:25] Brad: “I can’t control whether a client decides to do something different and no longer wants to work with us… or if the economy tanks and we go through a recession and people quit spending, I can’t control a lot of that… from the unknown.” Brad asks about things that others have done to be proactive instead of reactive based in fear. [4:10] Ken speaks about how not making fear-based decisions is a core personal value.  “Fear is a really detrimental emotion, right? When it pervades past the initial emotion of showing you that there’s a situation that needs your attention, that’s great but beyond that, if you’re not aware of it, it just takes over.”  [5:07] Ken asks: “Have you ever made a really good decision based in fear? Probably not… How many things have you NOT done out of fear? Because fear is one of those emotions that actually stops you- it’s used strategically sometimes in the marketplace to stop you from doing something.” “Getting a handle on fear, I think is one of the most practical things you can do as a business owner and a leader.” [5:50] Ken: “I don’t think anyone can control their fear… that’s a hard thing to do. What you can do is be aware of it and once you’re aware of it you can manage it appropriately. That takes a lot of conditioning… it’s like a muscle, not like a switch that you flip on an off, but a willpower that you build up over time.” [6:25] Bob: “I think we should talk briefly about some of the psychology around it… one of the most helpful things for me is understanding that your brain doesn’t know if something is really happening or not. It’s all about what your senses are, what you’re thinking and feeling, and then your brain acts accordingly. And so that’s where fear can paralyze us as business owners.” This is a state of unreality that your brain goes into, this world of possibility that anything could happen. But your brain doesn’t know it’s unreality- it thinks it’s happening.  [7:55] Bob tells us a story about a new VR game that simulates falling off of a building, and relates it to the idea that your brain doesn't know what’s real or not- you know you’re safe but your body still produces the adrenaline and sensation of falling.  “I really think if enough people could understand that small part of how fear affects us, it would be really helpful.” [8:54] Brad adds: “If you have fear, you’ve somehow experienced something similar in the past where it wasn’t a positive thing. So the more you can overcome the fear and go through experiences and see the positive outcome, the next time you go through that, it’s not going to be so fearful.” If you think about the things you deal with on a day to day basis that are rooted in fear, then take a totally opposite perspective of those things, think about what’s the worst that could happen.  [9:52] Brad: “If the worst were to happen, you might have to go through a little bit of hardship, but comparable to other people in this world, all three of us have it made. So it’s this attitude of gratefulness that we’re grateful for what we have and that we really don’t need all that much to be beautiful human beings.” [10:33] Brad continues: “For me, it’s a constant battle with myself of really, how should I react to this and how can I have a sound mind going into this so that I know I’ll be clear-headed through the process where I’m not owning that fear to the point where it becomes unrealistic.” [10:57] Ken: “I think that’s an important aspect of combating fear is identifying the source of information that’s creating the fear in you… Seeking truth is really important right? In business and in life… Can you trust opinion? Are your interests aligned with the people that are giving you those opinions?” Ultimately, your brain doesn’t know what is true and what isn't. So the worry that you allow yourself to have, the rabbit trails you go down actually tell your brain that these things ARE happening.  Step 1 is figuring out what the Truth is. [13:00] Bob adds: “The only person that has your best interest at heart concerning your mental wellbeing is you.”  OWNING this truth is the next step.  [13:53] Bob: “Don’t isolate yourself- talk about your fears… As a business owner you carry so much internally… those narratives can go to some pretty crazy places in your head… Sit down with trusted friends and advisors to talk them through.” [14:34] Brad speaks on when he feels the most fear. When there’s already a lot going on in your business and you’re already running on low fuel, the fear and anxiety can really take over. So it’s important to take a look at your calendar and start removing the things that aren’t necessary, to give yourself space to think clearly. He suggests first looking at the way you’re taking care of yourself and work from there.  [16:15] Ken speaks on how intentional you have to be with this- taking care of yourself and your body has to become an initiative in your life. [18:00] Ken: “Whether you like it or not, you're in that position where you need to come prepared, be conditioned to lead your organization appropriately. That’s just the role you’re in… and you have to accept that. And once you do, it’s like okay that means I have to live a life that has these qualities to it because I need to be conditioned.” [18:46] Brad: “It’s really hard to lead a company when you’re just reactive.” How do you become proactive so that you can prepare for these moments.  “How do you take that fear and flip it on its head and have it become an experience that’s positive?” [20:10] Brad speaks on the power a client has to put additional pressure on a team, and how important it is to communicate with the client early on to put more demands on how they will work with you.  “So it’s just being more clear, clarity is always key. Understanding what we will do and what we won’t do… so that in the case that their expectations are different, we can try to eliminate that.” [21:41] Bob asks the guys to speak on the “guard rails” that they keep in place to keep them on a healthy track.  Belong in 2 buckets: Financial guards for your business health, and then relational and client guards.  [22:24] Ken: “I believe the business world has some potentially fatal, or sort of toxic relationships that happen, or modes of operation…. They don’t come from a bad place, they’re almost accepted.”  [24:43] Ken speaks about the way Metacake approaches client relationships “Hey, we want to be able to serve your and over-deliver with the value that we create… we have to be extremely excited at the end of whatever we do. And the only way we can do that is if we can focus on that and not have to worry about being paid.” [25:45] Bob: “That comes down to processes right? So a clear statement of work, clear agreements… not just that you create them and your clients sign them, but that you go through a reading process and an understanding of what hours you work, when, how you communicate, what’s expected from them.” [28:02] Ken: “I think that it’s important to challenge traditions appropriately, to make sure they’re actually done in healthy ways.” [28:15] Bob asks Ken how Metacake figured out how to solve the billing issues that plague a lot of agencies.  [28:36] Ken was told by a mentor that the #1 threat to your existence is cash flow.  Oftentimes, cash in the bank is seen as a sort of nebulous thing that is always pushed off and away. You have clients that don’t pay in 60, 90, 120 days and so mentally you think there is a lot more cash in the bank than there actually is. And it can be devastating for small and large agencies alike. “The reality of what it is, that means you don’t get paid for 3 months, can you float everything for 3 months? Arguably, that’s more of a loan and you should be getting paid interest on it, right?” [31:15] Ken continues: We wanted to solve the cash flow issue… we went to electronic payments and split the payments appropriately over the months of the engagement. So whether that’s a retainer or whether that’s a project, we just spread it out sort of evenly.” [32:53] Bob asks Ken how long it took Metacake to transition away from the traditional pay structure of agencies. [34:15] Brad speaks on the pain of back and forth to get payment from some clients, and how much time, energy, and attention that this process that take/waste.  [35:00] Ken adds that when you’re in this back and forth with a client, it’s a big and important unknown detail that you’re not in control of- and THIS allows fear into the equation immediately.  “One of the things you can do to combat fear-based decisions is preparation… and one of the main areas where fear manifests is in finances… if you can find some security around that, it’s worth it… I shoot for having one year of operating capital in the bank. That is a lore more than most financial advisors say you need, but for us that’s one of the things that allows us to say ‘Hey I don't’ want to be hiring and firing staff all day long.’” [39:23  ] Bob asks Brad: “What about Anthem Republic? What are some key things that have eliminated fear and anxiety for you?”  [39:38] Brad responds: Service agreements that have more guidelines and guardrails, early communication.  “I’m making sure that that capital is being invested so it’s making money while it’s sitting there.” [42:50] Ken adds: “That’s one area I think most business owners may or may not be first in… but either you’re really versed in it or you have no clue… Should you have a financial advisor?” [43:09] Brad: “A business owner has to be financially healthy in order for the business to be healthy financially. [44:33] Ken: “You being healthy first is the only way that you can lead a company that makes everyone else healthy.” [44:37] Brad: “And that helps me as well with my fear personally. If I feel as a whole, I’m okay, for the time being, then even if my business feels like it’s struggling or you feel like you might be losing a client or some financial resources… it’s not 2 ships that are sinking, right? And that helps alleviate some of that pressure for me.” [45:14] Bob asks: “If you are working on yourself and you want that to permeate your atmosphere at work as well? Do you guys provide any opportunities for your staff? Because they might be internalizing a lot of this themselves, right?” [47:22]  Brad: “The challenge is how to you be transparent with employees so they understand.” [48:13] Ken responds: “I believe fear is spread so easily and it’s almost like as human beings, it’s like we want to spread it… for a lot of people it’s sorta like gossip or anything else, maybe it helps us feel better… but as a business leader, it’s not rational.” Ken invites a friend and local pastor as a counseling resource for his team, on a private basis.  Internally, Metacake has a culture of not spreading fear and anxiety. Not suppressing it, but dealing with it in mature and healthy ways. [51:07] Bob asks about the way The Guys deal with anxiety and fear personally. “I know for me, I’m learning how to be present and breathe in those situations… Do you realize how shallow your breathing becomes when you are doing this kind of stuff?” [52:21] Brad adds that turning back to scripture is incredibly helpful. That and “having a heart of gratefulness… to look at everything I do have and not what I will lose.” Sometimes our anxieties and fears actually revolve around things that are not that valuable in life. So returning to gratitude has really helped to relieve stress.  [53:55] Ken speaks on how there was fear in his formative years concerning immediate safety, so he realized early on that the only way to take control of that fear is through seeking health in every aspect of his life: mentally, spiritually, physically.  “To me, being a leader, in a family or a business or whatever, is a very high calling. If pro athletes train and condition for a game, how much more important is your own training and conditioning in life?”  [56:58] Ken: “I don’t think God has fear for you- I don’t think that comes from God… and you might even say that faith and fear can’t coexist.” Faith is a big component because, like we’ve discussed before, when your decisions are based on something that is greater than you, whether that’s a purpose or a mission or a connection to a higher power, that takes the pressure off you, and that can help balance out any fears that come.” [58:34] Bob speaks on how releasing responsibility can be freeing- “I’m only responsible for me, not my employee’s lives or clients lives. And I’m not responsible for the way my clients feel about me or how they respond to me. My job is to know that what I’m doing is the right thing to do.”

An Untold Love Story (Part 1) - Ken and Joni TadaAn Untold Love Story (Part 2) - Ken and Joni TadaFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Sufficient Grace Guests:                      Ken and Joni Tada              From the series:       An Untold Love Story (Day 2 of 2)  Bob:  Joni Eareckson Tada remembers a time in her marriage to her husband Ken when both of them were starting to drift farther and farther apart. Joni:  I was fearful that I was making Ken depressed. My disability was depressing my husband. So, I would be very careful to take care of as many routines as I could possibly do before he came home from school so that I would not have to walk on eggshells and ask him to do anything for me because I knew that asking too much of Ken would plummet him into depression. For a long time, it was this strange tap dance that we both played. Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, May 3rd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today what Joni and Ken Tada did when they realized they were drifting apart in marriage. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I've been thinking about—I have a son who just proposed to his girlfriend. They're going to get married soon. I was thinking, “If I could sit them down with anybody, for a little premarital counseling—the couple that could give them the benefits of great experience and theological understanding— Dennis:  You really had thought of me. Bob:  Ah-h-h. You were on the list. [Laughter] Dennis:  I'm kidding you. I know who's in the studio, Bob. Bob:  You were underneath our guests today. Dennis:  Way underneath the guests. Bob:  I just thought, “Would it be okay if we got some premarital counseling for John and Katie from our guests?” Just let them—they've written this book. Tell them about the book that they've written. Dennis:  Well, this book is called Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. So they need to hear a love story—one that's gone 30 years, plus. Bob:  And that has gone through some rocky times. Dennis:  Some? Bob:  Yes. Joni:  A few. Dennis:  A few, no doubt about it. Bob:  I just thought, “I wonder what counsel they would give to a couple, just getting started, on the frontend of the journey?” Dennis:  Well, let's ask them. Ken and Joni Eareckson Tada join us again on FamilyLife Today. Ken, Joni, welcome back. Joni:  Absolutely. It's good to be back. Ken:  Thanks. Dennis:  I know Ken would like to teach your son how to fly— Joni:  Fly fish. Dennis: —fly fish. I don't know if Ken ties the flies. Ken:  Yes, but— Bob:  Would that help his marriage if he learned how to fly fish? Ken:  It could, but don't do it the first year. [Laughter] Joni:  But you know what I had Ken's best man tell me on our wedding day? He drew me aside and whispered in my ear, “Let your husband keep his dreams.” I didn't know what he meant, at the time; but of course, this whole fly fishing thing—about which we joke—it's really important, I think, for guys to have that space—to have those times of connection with other men.  Ken:  And Joni's been my biggest supporter, during that—the whole time—not that I abuse it—but she knows that I need to have time with guys. Joni:  Oh, yes! You know how you abuse it; don't you? Ken:  How? Joni:  We're driving down the freeway and he'll say: “Hey, there's a Jaguar that just drove by. Joni, can I have a Jaguar?” “No! Of course, not!” Then, of course, that sets me up for—“Oh, then, you'll give me the fishing reel.” [Laughter] Okay. I know what you're up to! Ken:  It took 30 years—but you start high and you aim lower [Laughter]—and asking for a brand-new Jaguar convertible—obviously, I'm not going that direction—but a new fly rod—that would be kind of cool! Dennis:  Yes, there you go. Let's go back to Bob's question here. Let's put it on the line, here. Let's go back to your honeymoon to talk about some of the most important lessons you started out your marriage learning. Ken:  Well, the one lesson we learned is—I think Joni and I have said before—but we had friends who told us to go out and experiment. We decided, “No.”— Dennis:  Move in with each other. Joni:  Pretty much. Ken:  Well, for the weekend. Joni:  Just to try it out for the weekend—for a couple of weekends. Dennis:  And the reason is— Ken:  Because you know, with a disability, it was a little bit different than perhaps with an able-bodied person. Joni:  Expediency. Ken:  And just to see whether or not it would fit. Joni: If this was going to work. Bob:  See, I hear that story. I just imagine, in my head, you guys going off for a weekend and then you going, “Oh, I guess it's not going to work.”  “What? Hello!” Ken:  Where's the commitment? Bob:  Yes. How do you break that news to somebody, “I'm out of here because this part doesn't work.” Well guess what? You may have seasons where that part of your relationship doesn't work— Ken:  Exactly. Joni:  Exactly. Bob: —and you'd better figure out how to love one another in the midst of those seasons! Joni:  Absolutely, which is why—even before we got engaged and even during our engagement—there was no experimenting. There was no testing: “Let's try this out. How's this going to fly?” We went into our marriage, with our conscience tender and intact, with no violation of our convictions. As Ken has often said, “Of course, it made our honeymoon a little like handicap-awareness week; [Laughter] but that was okay.” Dennis:  Well, let's talk about that for a second—what that was like—because you write about it in your book. I wouldn't ask this question if you hadn't put this in print; alright? Ken:  Oh, there's nothing we wouldn't discuss. I think we're pretty well open with everything. Joni:  I put it delicately in print, though, Dennis—as delicately as I could. Bob:  And we can stay delicate right here. [Laughter] Dennis:  That's the truth, but you're a quadriplegic—for those who don't know your story. You had an accident when you were 17 years old. You had a great fear, going into this marriage, that he was going to find out what it meant to care for someone who was so helpless. Joni:  Okay, well let's talk about the brass tacks. Ken and I went off on our honeymoon. We took two friends—two girlfriends of mine—who stayed at a different hotel, down the beach—but they would come up during the mornings and evenings and kind of like educate Ken on my routines—not to throw everything at him at once—but just to kind of get his feet wet: “This is what it means for Joni to get up in the morning: bed, bath, exercising her legs, and then those toileting routines.” Well, I had to do a particular toileting routine in the evening. I don't know how to say this. Ken had to help carry me to the bathroom. I didn't make it. When that happened—it's funny—I choke up, talking about it now, 30 years later. Yet, it's so long ago and far away—but I was the young girl. I wanted everything to be perfect. I wanted my husband to have great illusions of me and: “This is going to be wonderful! Everything is so romantic!”   Yet, I remember that first night—lying in bed after the lights were out and all was quiet. I fought back the tears: “Oh, God! This man—You are going to have to give him grace. You're just going to have to. You have to give him grace because I don't know that even I have the grace. But help him through this, Lord. You can do this! Help him through this!”  It was a desperate cry of a very young bride, but I'm so glad God answered because things did not get easier in our ensuing life together. There were even greater challenges; but at every turn, I saw God's grace show up in my husband's life. That was huge, and that's growth. Dennis:  There are times, in every marriage, after the honeymoon—in fact, there are seasons that occur where you move into a bit of a valley. Obviously, your marriage started in one and has continued on in one—but you move into something where there is—you describe in your book as “negotiated spaces” and “demilitarized zones” in your relationship. You guys had a plateau. You kind of had the “Cease fire”— Joni:  Yes. Ken:  I think it was those middle years, where Joni was going to the ministry and I was teaching high school. Basically, we were living together but separate lives— parallel lives. Not that our marriage was bad—it's just I was occupied with what I was doing, as a high school teacher; and Joni was occupied in the ministry. We would travel during the summer. So, there were a lot of connections; but during those school days, I don't think we spent the kind of time that— Dennis:  You were teaching at the time. Ken:  I was teaching high school, yes. Joni:  And I was fearful that I was making Ken depressed. My disability was depressing my husband. So, I would be very careful to take care of as many routines as I could possibly do before he came home from school so that I would not have to walk on eggshells and ask him to do anything for me that might encroach on his emotions because I knew that asking too much of Ken would plummet him into depression.  For a long time, it was this strange tap dance that we both played—where we had to negotiate these spaces. But through it all—through it all—we both recognized we were doing this, and we didn't want to live this way. So, we prayed—prayed together and prayed separately— that God would help move us beyond this emotional fog that we were in to help us see the possibilities, in our marriage, that were ahead, on the horizon. Ken:  I think the other thing that happened during that time, Joni was—especially, this was earlier in our marriage—but because of your notoriety—people would recognize you when we were in public. One of the things that was really hard—that we look back on it now—was we'd go to church. There'd be a line of people, half an hour long, who would want to speak to you.  I was finding my—if I had a self-image problem, it was healed when I went to school because: “That was my classroom. Those were my students.” When I was in Burbank, those were people who recognized me—not that I needed it—but it was just that self-assurance, that affirmation that I was getting through what I was doing—that I think there was a balance there. Joni:  But to help move my husband past that: “Let's go to a different church. Let's get out of this big church. Let's go to some small, little church.” So, we started going to a small, very little church, just a few miles from our house. We stopped going to the big mega church, where everybody knew me, just trying to find ways, as a wife, to make it easier and finding that those negotiated spaces became smaller and smaller—to the point where we both were in it together. We weren't adversarial; we weren't on parallel tracks anymore. We were on the same track. It took a while to get there, but we did. Bob:  Did you feel invisible for a long period of time? Ken:  Boy, that's a great description of exactly what I was feeling. I mean, people would—we would stand in a crowd. I would stand next to Joni, and nobody would want to talk to me. Bob:  Yes. Ken:  But Joni has been so good about bringing me into the conversation. She would stop them and say: “I want to introduce you to my husband. He's standing right here.” She realized that, from that standpoint, that I needed that—at least, in those early years—that we were a couple. I think, over the years, it's gotten to the point where there are more people that recognize us as a couple. It hasn't been an issue. It actually has been kind of a benefit—that I think, for the both us—that we are recognized in a ministry for couples. Joni:  In those early years, when you were struggling with your self-image, those were the same times I was struggling with my self-image. I would hear him on the phone with all his buddies, talking about all kinds of things that he wouldn't talk about with me. I'd hear him hang up the phone, saying, “Love ya, Buddy.” It was like, “Ahh! Gee, I don't hear that tone of voice with me.” I remember being so— Dennis:  Now, wait a second— Joni:  No. I felt— Dennis:  —the Joni Eareckson Tada could have a pity party; really? Joni:  Oh, my goodness! In the early years of my marriage, when I would hear him on the phone with Jan or Pete, I'd be so jealous of his tone of voice with his guy friends. But okay, later on in the marriage, as we're praying—as I'm seeking God, “How can I get my husband out of depression?” Boing! This light bulb went off in my head. I realized he needs his guy friends. “Don't be jealous of them, Joni—” Bob:  Yes. Joni:  —“Put him in their camp.” So, I began encouraging Ken: “You know, your buddy Jan has been asking you to go fly fishing. Please, really, why don't you go fly fishing? Get away from the tuna boats—you gaff tuna, blood on the decks—guys with big bellies and cans of beer, cursing, and profanity—get away from that. Go fly fishing. It's more refined. You're going to enjoy it.”  I was the one who kind of pushed him—not so much because I wanted to get him away from the tuna boats—but I knew, that if he was with his Christian guy friends, that it would be invigorating—that he would get a validation, as a man, from other men that would help him and help our marriage. I think that was one of the best moves I made to help you up and out of your depression. Ken:  Joni was the instrumental tool for getting me into fly fishing. I really didn't, at the time, want to go fly fishing. I didn't want another sport; but she said, “No, you ought to go.” More than the fly fishing, I have a friend—we have a ministry to men. We use fly fishing as kind of like— Bob:  The bait. Ken:  —the bait; exactly. It gives guys a chance to get their hearts back. Bob:  Yes. Ken:  We talk about all kinds of things. We use John Eldredge's book, Wild at Heart, but— Joni:  But you got your heart back. Ken:  —but I got my heart back. Joni is a big supporter of what I do there, but one of the things that happened was—a little exercise that we had was go out and try to hear what God had to say to us. The first time I did this, I didn't hear a thing. Two years later—I can tell you exactly where I was—on a fly fishing trip. A gentleman said, “Take this afternoon and go out and try to hear God's voice.” That afternoon, I heard God say to me—not in an audible voice—but I heard Him say, “Joni is the most important gift I've given you. You take care of her.” Dennis:  And in your book, you talk about when he came back from that trip. You saw it in his eyes.  Joni:  Oh, my goodness! He stood in the bedroom and said, “Joni, you're never going to believe what God said to me.” He shoved his hands in his pockets. rocked back and forth on his heels, and said, “God said that you're the most precious gift, and I'm to take care of you, and I'm going to do it.” It was like a breath of fresh air had just blown through our bedroom. It was like the fog of depression is lifting—I can see the sun, the clouds. There's hope. My husband likes me! He wants to take care of me, for the sake of Christ. I began to see all my prayers answered or, at least, beginning to get answers.  And now—even back then—when his buddies call the house, and I get them on the phone, before I hand it over to Ken: “Jan, God bless you. Sir, I don't know what you're doing in my husband's life. Keep it up. I know you're memorizing Scripture. I know you're doing some new Jerry Bridges Bible study together on the phone. Keep it up! I love it. You're going in the right direction.” I'm thanking Pete, I'm thanking Chris, and I'm thanking Jan—all these guys—that I used to be jealous of—they're the best because they help my husband be the man that he can be. Dennis:  And that story occurred—what I want our listeners to hear—21 years into your marriage.  Bob:  And the next time you go out with Pete, and Jan, and Chris, we've got a resource for you to take with you—a Bible study for guys called Stepping Up™, based on Dennis's book by that title. It's a video resource, and it'll spark some great discussion with you and the guys. Okay? Ken:  Great. Thank you, Bob. Dennis:  One last story. Joni, this one's for you. You battled cancer. You went through chemotherapy. In the process of going through that, fell prey to pneumonia. You had a moment, in the midst of that, that was pretty grim. You had your own encounter when God spoke to you. Would you share with our listeners that story? I think that is incredibly powerful. Joni:  Well, as a quadriplegic, I'm susceptible to things like pneumonia. I have extremely limited lung capacity. I had to be in the hospital for nine or ten days. My husband, bless his heart, made a little cot, out of a couple of plastic chairs. He slept by my bedside. Instead of me having to be intubated, Ken got up every night—would cough me—pound on my chest. One night, I was so exhausted. I had so flattened out, emotionally. I was crying out to God. I had no physical ability. My lungs were gurgling. I could hardly breathe. I felt like I was drowning. I just didn't want to have to get my husband up another time. I remember saying, “Lord Jesus, I need You. I need to see You tonight. I just need to feel Your touch. I need to feel Your hand on my head. I need You!”  I fell into a sleep. Then, when I woke up, with the gurgling and needed to be coughed again, Ken came over to my hospital bedside. As he began to lift me up, I looked at him, wide-eyed, and I said, “You're Him! Oh my goodness, you're Him!” Jesus visited me, that night, through my husband. I felt his hand on my forehead, and it was the touch of Jesus. I felt him push on my abdomen, and it was the strength of Jesus. I felt him pound on my back to give me air, and it was Jesus, the Breath of Life. Everything about my husband was Jesus. I said to Ken, “You're Him! Jesus showed up and you're Him!” It was such a beautiful revelation of how God can answer prayer—the prayers that are desperate and show up best through them. That was a beautiful moment. You know, we've talked a lot about cancer. We've talked a lot about quadriplegia. I'm going to confess to you those things are a cinch compared to the daily grind of pain that I deal with. Through my PET scans—a couple more years, maybe—I'll be declared cancer-free. Things are looking hopeful. My quadriplegia—I kind of know that route. But boy, the daily grind of pain is so hard. My husband, a couple of weeks ago, did a beautiful thing. Before he saw me head out the door, he could see the look in my eyes that I was going to have a very painful day. He said: “Wait a minute. Wait a minute.” He quick ran and got a stick-um, and etched on it a big “C”, and put it over my heart—slapped it right over my heart. He said: “There you go, Joni. You've got courage, and you're going to rise to that challenge.”  I think what I love best about my husband is that he can find the infinitesimally small Christ-like characteristics in my life—he can find them, pick them out, and affirm them. He can water them and nurture them with actions such as he did with that stick-um on my chest. He believes that I can be courageous. I don't want to disappoint my wonderful husband. I want to be courageous, in Christ, for his sake and for the sake of the Gospel. That is, honestly, how I get through the toughest days of my pain. Dennis:  You both are courageous. Recently, I did a little Bible study in Joshua 1—three places where courage comes from: God's mission, being obedient to God's Word, and third, practicing His presence. As I'm watching your lives, as a couple, you're on mission. You're on task, as a couple. You're about the glory of God and running the race to finish it well. Secondly, you've both been obedient. You've kept your covenant. You're not only still married—you love each other. And third, you're practicing the presence of God, whether it be fly fishing or whether it be flat on your bed, in a hospital room, battling pneumonia. You're experiencing the presence of God, and you're bringing a lot of hope to a lot of people. May God's favor be upon this book and you guys, as you go forward. Joni:  Thank you, Dennis. Ken:  Thank you, Dennis and Bob. Bob:  We love you guys and hope folks will get a copy of your book. It's called Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Thirty years of marriage—as you guys peel back the veneer and show us what real marriage is all about. I hope listeners will go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you can call to request a copy of the book, Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Don't forget the title of the book—Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. We'd love to get a copy to you. Now, I know most of you are excited that summer is almost here—got graduations happening this month and all kinds of activities during the month of May—and then, it's summertime, just around the corner. I love summertime, too. I love vacations. I love the break you get. I love the warmer weather. But for a ministry, like FamilyLife Today, summer can be a challenging time because a lot of listeners get out of the normal pattern of listening and out of the normal pattern of helping to support the radio program. Donations to the ministry fall off a little bit during the summer. We had some friends, of the ministry, who came to us, knowing that that happens every summer. They said, “We'd like to help you guys build a little surplus—a cushion before June, and July, and August hit.” They have put together a matching-gift fund of $576,000. They have said, “We'll match every donation you receive, between now and the end of May, dollar for dollar, until that fund is gone.”  We appreciate their generosity; but obviously, the only way we can take advantage of their generosity is if listeners, like you, will go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click the button that says, “I CARE”, and make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make a donation over the phone. When you do that, your donation will be matched, dollar for dollar, with funds from the matching-gift fund. You will help us get ready for the summer months ahead. So, can we ask you to do that? Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, “I CARE”, and make a donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make a donation over the phone. We appreciate your support, and we are always happy to hear from you. And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to talk with Laura Petherbridge about some of the challenges that step-moms face. Ron Deal will be here with us, as well. I hope it works out for you to be here. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We will see you back Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com    

In this episode of #DearCollegeStudents, I will be talking to Ken You, Stanley, and Parrish about life after undergrad.  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/sevonte/support

In this episode of #DearCollegeStudents, I along with Stanley, Obed, Mario, Parrish, Stanley, Terrance, Ken You, and Travon will continue to talk about the book, 'As A Man Thinketh' by James Allen. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/sevonte/support

In this episode of #DearCollegeStudents, I along with Stanley, Ken You, Mario, Parrish, and Travon will be talking about the book, 'As A Man Thinketh’ by James Allen. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/sevonte/support

[INTRO]I have this itch that I can't scratch. It's basically buying more properties. And If you already have a few condo or freehold investments and you're wondering what to buy next between the two, either condo or freehold, you want to grow your portfolio or maybe you're just starting out and you want to look in getting into the market. Either way, This podcast is about condo or freehold investing. Which one's better? Join me my most recent conversation with my good friend Charles Messina. Charlie and I have been working together for quite some time now, as our team has helped him grow and maintain his investment portfolio. So In this first episode of season two, we talked about what's better to hold condo or freehold investments.Welcome to season two of boardwalk talks, your real estate investment show with your host, Kenneth Yim. Excuse the audio quality this conversation or future episodes will be high quality, just like this intro. Anyway, let's get right into it.[KEN]Should I buy a freehold or condos and investment?[CHARLES]:Yeah, this is a topic we've talked about before can and people ask us all the time. And I think it's a good idea for us to talk about the pros and cons of each. What do you think?Yeah, sounds great. I mean, we both hold both properties as investments. I mean, we've gone through that. So I guess we can talk on either side, right?[CHARLES]:Yeah, that's right.[KEN]Why don’t we do rock, paper, scissors? So winner takes freehold?[CHARLES]:Yes![KEN]:123. Tie. 123. Okay, so I took winner, so I'm freehold.[CHARLES]:Yes.[KEN]:All right, here we go. So I get the freehold side, you get the condo side pros, right. So I'm pro freehold and you’re pro condo. So let's go ahead. What's, what are some pros and cons of buying freehold?[CHARLES]:Well, the cons of freeholed, as someone who's lived in a condominium for a long time, it’s great lifestyle, because certainly, everything's taken care of, for you. And as an investment, we both have condos as investment properties, and you're buying management of those condos. You don't get too many phone calls from your tenants simply because a lot of is taken care of through those maintenance fees.[KEN]:Right. Right. So I guess the biggest pro for buying a freehold investment is that you get the land, right. So the thing with that, you're right, you do have to maintain it as long as… or maintenance. I would say the upside of that is that? Well, I mean, I guess if you have multi units, multi residents per freehold investment, then you could get economies of scale that way, right? I mean, the maintenance, It's kind of optional, you don't have to do it. If you don't want to, right? You could be a true slumlord not and do nothing really, you know, certainly you do want to maintain your property. And I'm not saying that I'm not advising any of the listeners to to not maintain your properties for your tenants. But you could choose when you want to do your investment, really, you can be a little more hands on with it.[CHARLES]:Right. And just On that point can let's talk a little bit about the price per square foot, if you will, that you're getting as an investment on a condo versus a freehold.[KEN]:That's a really good point. So let's look at some numbers here. So the average price of a detached home in the entire Toronto Real Estate board is just over a million bucks. So it's 1.018 million. And for condos, it's $590,274. In Toronto, and just 416, south of Steeles, it's a little over 1.3 million for freehold and for condo is $636,000. Specifically, if you look at the downtown core, which is between Dufferin and DVP, we're looking at $706,000 Just south of the Bloor.[CHARLES]:Right And that's, that's an interesting point there about the spread can more so lucky and Toronto almost double. So let's talk a little bit about the fees that are associated with condos, and that spread between a condo and freehold. So typically, would you agree that a condo around that $600,000 range would be around for $450-500 a month for condo fees?[KEN]:Condo fees and taxes? Yeah, let's call it $500. Let's say you get about $2,400 on an average $600,000 condo, one bedroom.[CHARLES]:Right. And for homes, obviously you're paying taxes as well. But as you mentioned earlier, maintenance fees, those are optional things, certainly you're going to have to spend money on all. I would say, of course you have control over when and the timing of when you spend that money. Versus with the condo, you have the peace of mind that you know major things that are going wrong in the building are covered with your condo fees. But something that's come to mind for me lately as owning both a freehold investment and condo investment is, over time, as we're talking about pros and cons, we can argue both sides of it is, that you're paying a lot of money and maintenance fees over a span of 5 to 10 to 15 years. And you know, how would you respond to that?[KEN]:Well, that's actually a good point. Because you know, if you if you actually look at your tax bills, depending if you are in the city of Toronto or not, but if you are in the city of Toronto, let's say location is relatively similar. You're looking at a higher tax bill, which would make up the difference really, and what you're paying for the maintenance in condos. Except you also have to maintain the property, depending on the age of it. There's so many variables, it's kind of hard to say, right? So I would say all in all, I think I understand your point, that maintenance is required, whether you have a condo or freehold. It's something that depreciate some value, it's not gonna last forever, It's just a matter of whether you want it professionally property manager, or if you want to take that control on yourself.[CHARLES]:Right. And we've always talked about getting in the market and how we encourage our clients to get into the market. And certainly with the prices as they are typically somebody is first purchase is probably going to be a condo these days, especially a young couple. And so when we look at building up equity, then certainly further down the road, They can consider moving up to a freehold as a result of investing in that condo.[KEN]:For sure. And I was actually gonna say that for the summary. But you're right, I mean, at the absolute dollar amount of buying a freehold, is almost double, if not more than double, of what a condo would be. And I always find that people that are looking for condos, certainly the rents are going to be higher per door for a condo. They're nicer places, they have amenities that concierge and things like that, right? As generally nice views, right and good locations, better locations than houses generally. So of course people tenants are they're willing to pay more rent for it, The property is going to command more rent per door, But then you don't get the efficiencies that you do in a freehold in a multi unit. Right?[CHARLES]:Correct. Because you could have the option of potentially renting out the basement making a two units. Certainly we've heard about what the City of Toronto discussions around allowing people to build in lane ways to expand the number of housing options. That whole also comes into play if you're buying a freehold as an investment.[KEN]:Right, Right. You know, actually, there's a lot of other ways to improve value of the rents improve the rents, right? I mean, you could do things like coin laundry or or storage, you can add storage to the property just pop up, You know, like a container bin or some kind of locker system out there and charge a little bit more. Or you can include Wi Fi, you know, for throughout the entire all the units that you have in there. So you have three units can throw in free Wi Fi, and just jack the rents a little bit, which will improve your numbers, there's so many ways you can improve the rent. Right. With a condo, I don't think you can do that typically.[CHARLES]:Well, you're limited to one revenue source, of course, right?[KEN]Of course. Wait, you’re supposed to be acting for the pro of condo, not acting for the pros of freehold.[CHARLES]:Well, I guess what we're saying Ken is I guess I've come to the conclusion that you can argue both sides of the pros and cons because we own both. And I think what we're trying to do here is we're trying to give… We're not trying to be fence sitters. But it occurs to me, it's about timing and where people's people are in the whole investment profile versus It's one thing to buy your own home to live in. And then as you've done so well, with your clients over the years counselling them is when they're ready to move up to a house to live in maintaining that condo as a rental. So we're certainly not saying it's the beyond all end all one versus the other.[KEN]:Of course, but that's the point of our topic. We're trying to get some controversy here. But at the end of the day, to all the listeners out there, I think, really, it's just to get started. That's The moral of the story. And I think that's what you're trying to say, Charlie, If you don't get started, you won't have the opportunity to build the equity, like you do in when you're in the market.[CHARLES]:Correct. And we're not just talking about this, we've actually seen our clients do this. Yeah, absolutely. So we're not basically talking about anything that we haven't done ourselves or our clients.[KEN[:Right, let's say, say you have the means to buy a free hold investment. And say you're actually you already have one or two condos now. And now you're thinking, should I pick up my third condo? Or should I trade them all and get a house?[CHARLES]:Yes, that's a great point, something that I've thought about as well. And I think it goes back to having the versatility in a home. Of course, you'd have to buy the right property where you've got the option where you need a separate entrance, for example, that would be ideal if you're going to rent up the basement or an upper level as an example. And then further down the road, assessing a property is, could I build up on this property as well and increase the value of the property? Because as we know, we have many clients and we know contractors that can give us an idea of what it costs to build, in addition, or build out a basement. And then of course you do the god cost benefit analysis of is it worth it for me to spend $50,000 on a basement reno, And what are typically the rents. Very good friend of mine, he bought a bungalow in Etobicoke. And he added the second story, He's renting out his basement. And, for example, he's getting $2,000 a month now for It's a really nice basement apartment. He's done it really, really nicely. It's a two bedroom. And so here's the way he explained it to me, Ken, is because he's getting that income. Now, when we talk about maintenance, so we hire somebody to cut the grass or hire somebody to shovel the snow. Sure. And he hires a cleaning lady. So basically, he's really created his own mini condo Corporation, if you will, through a multiplex at home. So that's another way of doing it,[KEN]:For sure. And the downside of doing that is that you have to manage it, though. That's that's the only thing I mean, the upside is that… Well, not even the upside. It's almost a non starter to me if the numbers don't make sense, if you don't incorporate professional property management in there, Right? If your model doesn't, if your model doesn't work, and it forces you to create a job for yourself, then why you invest in the first place, you're doing an active work instead of passive investment. Right. So we should have factored in the price of vacancies and the price of maintenance as well, too.[CHARLES]:Correct. So math is really important.[KEN]:And it's absolutely so it's really hard for us to I know we're trying to discuss this to try to create some, like a topic to talk about whether we're going to go free all the condo, but at the end of the day, every single opportunity is unique. And it takes warrants further analysis for sure. For sure. And the whole story, again, is to just get started no matter where you are in your in your journey, I guess. Right? So let's switch gears a little bit and do it on the same related note. I guess what kind of quality of tenants do you think you're going to get between the two is going to be the same quality tenants? Or do you think it's gonna be different?[CHARLES]:Another great point there, Ken. And certainly, whether it's a condo or freehold, it depends the location, You know, for talking, you know, but a home in Lawrence Park, you know, I'm looking for clients, you know, the rents there for home and Lawrence Park, or 6-7-8 thousand dollars per month. So I think we know who can afford to pay that kind of money is probably a real occasions, From like presidents, to vice presidents of companies. If you look downtown and the financial core, we know there's younger professionals, As a result of all the jobs moving into downtown gentleman from the tech companies, financial legal accounting. And certainly you've got a great pool of tenants to choose from. From there. So the location, I think, would be critical on the type of attendance, whether it's a condo or freehold. What are your[KEN]:So I mean, with that example, I think that it's kind of hard to compare them side by side like that, right? I mean, how many families willing to pay $8,000 in Lawrence Park are there? Versus the new grad that's just starting to work or actually gainfully employed and looking for that one bedroom, or one plus den, or two bedroom downtown, right. So there's certainly a wider audience of people downtown looking for that. So if you're looking at apples to apples in terms, call it $2,400. And, you know, that's the purchase price of the condo, and it started the rent of the condo, and then the purchase price a certain amount, Let's say if it's double, for the purchase price of a house, that kind of caliber, and you may or may not get double the rent of that, I certainly think you're going to get lower rents in freehold versus a condo downtown.[CHARLES]:So kind of the rule of thumb is a lower price per square foot as a rental and a home versus a condo?[KEN]For sure, because of the lower budget of the tenants, I guess generally, it might translate to low quality. I mean, that's not always true. Obviously, we know that. Just because you don't make the income Right now, it doesn't mean you're not worth a lot of assets, or your family's not worth a lot of states to some of the students from overseas or whatever. There are friends with a ton of assets, a lot more than what you and I have combined, times 10. So, but I guess the general rule of thumb is if they're making less money for the average, then you're looking at lower quality of tenant. Really, I guess?[CHARLES]:Well, you know, I guess it's based on income. And certainly, as we've been talking about, people want to live near where they work. And you know, not everybody works on Bay Street For Big Five accounting firm. So there's different options for different people. And where some of those options could be filled just outside the downtown core. In, for example, in East York, or in Leslieville, for example, or Etobicoke. And even actually, the downtown course a Parkdale there's multiplexes, there were people say in the hospitality industry that are not making the same money, as you know, somebody in legal or in the financial core.[KEN]:Or even even the ones that are and choose to rent. Like the big families out in more residential areas North York, and so forth, right? Lawrence Park and all that. That is a luxury rental, and they're paying 6-7-8-10,000 or more, Right? It's a smaller market for sure. But it's up there.[CHARLES]:Right. So ultimately, the demand for housing and Toronto, it continues, and there's different different options for different people. And you take that into account. And we get back to the math equation, which is, what am I paying for this investment? What's the type of tenant I'm going to get? What's my return? And versus what I get maybe higher price appreciation with a property that has land. But of course, then you have to look after the place, There's a lot of property management issues, less so than in a condo, where it's just peace of mind. It's being run by the condo Corporation. And there's less fuss about managing that.[KEN]:Yeah, exactly. So I don't know, you know, because our recording actually got cut off for the audience out there, we had to do this again, halfway through the thing. So we're not sure where we left off. But I know that we talked about having a one bedroom or sorry, condo is a lot less maintenance versus a house. I mean, although you could budget in, you shouldn't be budgeting the price of property management into it. So that you're factoring that cost into the model doesn't work without property management, it shouldn't work for you at all. Otherwise, you're just creating yourself a job, it’s not an investment.[CHARLES]:Right. And some people would say route, kind of a rule of thumb for freehold property is 1% of the value, annually. Would you subsidize it? Yeah. Would you subscribe to that?[KEN]:Yeah, I wouldn't subscribe to that because there's so many variables into it. I mean, a new home is not gonna have a lot less maintenance than a new one, right. Right. So It really depends on the components, the specific components as replace and repair and kind of do your due diligence as you're going to buy it, right?Anyway, I think we also talked about what a one bedroom condo appreciate fashion and a two bedroom condo, and what should you buy? Right? We missed that comment. I think that got cut off. Right?[CHARLES]:It did get cut off. And we talked to both you an average of one bedroom downtown was about $2,400. And we talked about how a two bedroom will be about $3,500. But once again, we're back to the math on how if you're a couple, you need a bit more space, You want to go for the two bedroom, and then split down the middle that's $1,750 versus someone going solo and renting that place after $2,400 in a one bedroom?[KEN]:Yeah, for sure. So you could get more disposable income, so that the tenants would have more disposable income, which is great. Now there's situations where not everyone's a couple, right? You were talking about right? Joint and severably liable for the for the lease. So that is if you're going there with a roommate and one person decides to leave, Who's in charge of the household taken over?[CHARLES]:Right? Well, obviously to protect, you know, our clients, it's about writing the lease properly. So that those two people renting the place tenants understand that if one of them leaves, then the other one is still on the lease and has to pay the rent and full.[KEN]:Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, Funny enough, the landlord tenant board doesn't say, they don't have any legislation against roommates. Right. And I mean, it's it's such a case by case basis, more of a civil basis, that they don't have any jurisdiction over roommates. Anyway, we were talking about how, in New York, it's kind of common to use the vocabulary of saying “roommates”, right, not even just “renting” or even “owning” for that matter. Forget to put that all together. But, you know, a lot of people say in their vocabulary, you know, “my rent is so and so”. But more so they added my roommate is so and so. Right, which is pretty unique, because I pretty interesting story. That's where I think Toronto is heading. And you were mentioning all the employment not suffering tough.[CHARLES]:Sure, sure. And we know that all the office space has been built and continues to be built in downtown Toronto. And with these technology, companies like Microsoft relocating from Mississauga to downtown, CNBC, housing 15,000 people in those towers by the Scotiabank Arena, because they know that the people that want to work for them, One of the attractions is to live in downtown Toronto. And certainly that's not only the amenities, but being close to all the great restaurants and events that are happening. And that's what makes it attractive. And what we're finding is, as these new buildings come online, there's a demand for these buildings to be up to be occupied, and the vacancy rates are still low, and the inventory gets sucked up, if you will, as soon as it comes on market.[KEN]:Yeah, I agree that. So We also talked about one of the things about the benefits of being in a condo is that you're closer to the action really closer to downtown, because you're not necessarily going to have all those amenities in the suburbs where an affordable houses and affordable rental is, right. Right, right. And we're also talking about the potential of building something as a strategy for investing, right. So you, if you're part of a development place, say that you buy a multi unit that eventually can be gobbled up, or even any kind of free world for that matter. And you can be gobbled up by the neighbouring parcels to kind of join them up together to create a roadmap. But realistically, you have to have that in mind. Because if you're going to buy something in the suburbs, and you're going to acquire two or three of your neighbours, and you try to build, you know, they're not gonna let you the city's not gonna let you build a big giant apartment building in the suburbs. But if you have a main street with you know, me likely commercial downstairs on a main artery, then you might get those approvals. So you kind of have that that with the goal in mind is an exit strategy.[CHARLES]:For sure. And, you know, obviously, the complications or the additional duties that are required to manage a property with one or two tenants in a condo versus a multiplex.[KEN]:Yeah, that's a, that's a big thing. I mean, I guess, one thing I should say is that, when you have a small multifamily property, you're a little bit more limited, and who you're going to sell it to, you're going to sell to sophisticated investor, or a family that wants a living there, Assuming the tenants in the basement or and you have to get all the tenants out, whether it's the purchaser doing it with the seller doing it, Somebody's going to get all the tenants out to you know, to stage it, to clean it up, to show it well to have access for showings and all that kind of stuff. So you can get on the market properly. Right. So that's also a consideration, you might be waiting a long time for the remaining tenants to leave and be vacant.[CHARLES]:Right? And I just want to point out, Ken, just the concept of buying a property and living in and renting out a basement or an apartment or what have you in the home. That's not a new concept. And It's not I know that my family when they immigrated to to Canada, Their first house who included an extra apartment, and they would live in one part of the house and rented out and we know that that's what people aren't doing as well. So it's not a new concept.[KEN]:No, you're right. Yeah, certainly isn't a new concept. But different though, is that the Toronto see they've changed it sorry, not trying to Ontario, for that matter, because of the need for affordable housing and second suites. They allowed zoning for all to have second suites as long as it needs building code and fire code. So the stock of housing supply has increased, potentially by double, but still not enough for the the pace of growth that we're growing in the city. That being said, Yes, I think having a basement suite for those deciding to supplement their income or have some tenant pay a portion of the mortgage off is great way to invest.[CHARLES]:Right. And I know of a person who's done that, and they couldn't be happier because they move out from a condo, They need extra space, they're having children. And of course, I think we know that, you know, larger condos, can get up there and price. And as well, the maintenance fees. So they look at the option of moving into a home with income potential to help them bridge that gap.[KEN]:For sure. And that's that makes the house definitely more valuable. So On that note, so the good thing about investing into a freedom is that the the potential of increasing the value of to create more income for the investment, I think is a good benefit.[CHARLES]:Yeah, it definitely provides more options. Now those options will could cost money, and more time to make those changes. But it definitely have more options than you would within a condo. But there's nothing wrong with owning an investment condo and having passive income. It's managed. You don't you don't have to look after it. And you move on.[KEN]:For sure. For sure. That's that's definitely a good attraction for condos. And why most people buy condos is because of the price point the the ease of it they the bigger market size, I guess it's a lower price point. So they're easier to be more commoditized, I guess you could say.[CHARLES]:Right. And thank God for condo investors in Toronto. Otherwise, all this stock would not have been built.[KEN]:Correct. And the city would have grown. Yeah, for sure. For Sure. That's that's actually a really good point. That being said, If you know we own several condos, ourselves, and I don't think there's anything wrong with condiment, I love controversy, it's a great way to build equity. Can I ask you, would you rather trade up? Two condos for three condos for a freehold?[CHARLES]:Well, that's that topic of today. I guess it kind of dovetails to what we've been talking about this afternoon can which is you'd have to, we have to do the math and figure out over time, price appreciation. We know for sure, It's going to take more time of your resources. So if you really value your time, I think getting into a multiplex means bigger, a bigger issue more problems and money required to manage those. Not that I would dissuade anybody from doing it. So I think it's always about being well informed about the pros and cons, this we've been talking about, for sure.[KEN]:And I know we've been interrupted number times, so I apologize for that. But I guess we also talked about building in the price of a property manager. So if you have a good property manager, they are able to take those headaches away from you for a fee, obviously. But of course, if you build it into your cost, then it's possible. So it can still be passive, and you still can get the other ways to exit the the investment or other kind of benefits of owning property, not just increased rents. It'll be through other avenues.[CHARLES]:Right. So and we're getting back to the whole location. You wants three condos in downtown Toronto, and a multiplex say in the suburbs? I think goes that's a different equation.[KEN]:Yeah. I don't know about the summers but multiplies downtown or closer to the city, maybe jumping up one tier of, I guess from A, B, C to D, I guess joined down one rank would be okay, but not going down to rank. So that makes sense. But from A to B to C, right. From A to B? Yeah, that's okay. I wouldn't mind. I'd probably do that. And I guess it's every every property is case by case every situation is different.So I think the summary at the end of day is just get started.[CHARLES]:No question about it.[KEN]:The only way to do it. I think if you have a small condo, that's more commoditized, you can start If you don't own anything now, buy one of those things, buy two of them, buy three of them, let it grow and let it like plant that seed and let it grow like a little flower.[CHARLES]:Right. And then it provides you with options Above multiplexes as a result of taking that initial step.[KEN]:You can take those budding things of the flower and trade into turn into a tree and all that kind of stuff. That's it. I guess. Just get started.[CHARLES]:Get Started.[KEN]:All right, Charlie, good talking to you today. Thanks. Thanks for joining me on this podcast. And I guess we'll talk soon. Thank you.[OUTRO]:Well, I really hope you enjoyed that episode, and we've given you some food for thought. If you're interested in learning more, please visit www.BroadviewAvenue.ca and click for an appointment for a quick 15 minute phone call. We look forward to talking to you about your real estate investment journey. And thanks for listening.

Hi, I’m Joni Eareckson Tada, and welcome to Joni and Friends. You know, um, I’m winding up this treatment for cancer and I have received so many letters and emails, posts on Facebook from you friends listening, and asking about some of the details of what it’s been like to go through this battle. And I wish I could answer every single letter, but, you know, I thought today it might be good to get my husband in here, into the studio in front of the microphone to help answer some of those questions. Our listeners know that 8 years ago I had my first bout against cancer, but we’re back in the boxing ring with this cancer again, coming up on the last few radiation treatments that I have to have. KEN: You know what Jon? If it wasn’t for the people who are out there praying for us, it would have made this journey an awfully lot more difficult. JONI: Absolutely. I have felt, and I think you have too, we’re like hydroplaning on people’s intercessions. KEN: Aw man. JONI: It’s amazing. And we need it because for me, going to radiation, it’s not like anybody else, who might change their clothes and get into a hospital gown, and hop up on the table. It’s a real feat of energy and effort, isn’t it? KEN: We need to rely on friends, as well as the technicians who are there. It’s interesting, with chemotherapy it’s different. You go in, and you get an infusion. But with radiation, you have to get up on the table, every day. We couldn’t do it by ourselves. JONI: I’ve got one x-ray technician, usually it’s Steve or Jason, on the other side of the table, he’s reaching over, and on one, two, three, you guys kind of like lift me up on this high table, and get me situated just perfectly, so that I’m in line with the machine. It’s not easy. But I’m kind of glad that it’s not, because it gives us a chance to involve more people in our journey. Not just the girlfriends who come with me to help me get undressed, but the x-ray technician, like Jason and Paul and Gene and others that we’ve met, who assist me in getting up on that table. They see our vulnerability. And when we enlist them to help us, it kind of like gives us a platform to share the Good News of Jesus. Doesn’t it? KEN: Oh, absolutely. It’s a team effort. JONI: Have you given Joni books to all of them? KEN: I start off with tracts… JONI: Okay. KEN: You know, the Joni tract, and then develop a little bit of relationship with them. And I say, “You know what? Joni’s written this great story, I’d like to share with you…” and then they take the books and are very thankful. And hopefully we get a chance to talk with them… JONI: Great! When I was going through chemotherapy 8 years ago, in the chemo lab, someone had put out a big bowl of these little rocks, with words like hope, and breathe, and faith, and also some scriptures written on these rocks. And it was so encouraging to know that somebody had prayed over all those rocks. And the people like me who take one. And I still have my rock from 8 years ago. And I thought I’d pass on the idea to these other people. And part of what has inspired us is Genesis chapter 50, verse 20. You know, the story of Joseph when he tells his wicked brothers, “You might have meant this for evil, but God intended it for good...” And I love this part, “… for the saving of many lives.” If anybody gets cancer, if anybody breaks their neck, if anybody gets the flu, has an injury or illness, or experiences brokenness, it should all be for the platform of showcasing your trust and confidence in God to others. KEN: People say isn’t it a shame that Joni’s gotten this cancer again, but if there are lives that are going to be changed, and will come to know Jesus because of it, then it was all well worth it. JONI: So it’s all an opportunity to spread the Good News of Jesus… which has made this radiation cancer battle, journey thing, so much more meaningful. KEN: And I think as we learned from the first bout, it’s brought us closer together. JONI: Yeah. KEN: Cause we can’t do it without each other. JONI: No we can’t. Well Ken we’re finishing up, as I said, this cancer, radiation treatment. It’s been 35 tough, difficult sessions but with your help, and with the help of the x-ray technicians and with the help of our friends listening, who are praying, it’s been an amazing journey of faith and a chance to share the Gospel. Right? KEN: Right! Onward and upward, cancer be gone! © Joni and Friends

W. G. Snuffy Walden - "Angela Smiled" - My So-Called Life Armin van Buuren feat. Aaelyn - "In and out of love" Bart & Baker feat. Lolly Wish - "Downloaded (Rogan remix)" W. G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life theme" - My So-Called Life [Layers] Olivia Newton-John & ELO - "Xanadu" - Xanadu [Loops] Ken - "Nobody knows, we're all alone" [Recorded on cell phone camera (live during show)] Olivia Newton-John & ELO - "Xanadu" - Xanadu [Loops] W. G. Snuffy Walden - "Angela Smiled" Live phone caller & Ken - "Possibility is possible (It's possible)" W. G. Snuffy Walden - "Angela Smiled" - My So-Called Life Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "You Don't Have Time (this is good news)" - Show #509, from 9/15/2016 [Live on stage at Twisted Branch Tea Bazaar] Set: Michael Linnen & David Wingo - "Kissing music" - All the Real Girls Ken - "Collective faith (something good will happen)" Cowboy Junkies - "Ring on the Sill" - Pale Sun Crescent Moon [Loops] Sharon Stone with Garry Shandling - "If you're not in your vulnerability, nothing is interesting" - Garry Shandling meets Sharon Stone [They didn't want to be in their truth or vulnerability; they wanted to be in their mask, and their whole acting out of how fabulous they were. It's only really interesting to be with people when they're in their vulnerability. It's better to be with someone when they're making mistakes and don't know what to do, than someone who's being so sure-footed and phony. That's not interesting at all.] Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley, Anatole France - "Ignorance is the necessary condition of human happiness." - Surviving Desire movie / The Gods Will Have Blood [We are almost entirely ignorant of ourselves, absolutely of others. In ignorance, we find our bliss; in illusions, our happiness.] Julia Kent - "Ebb" - Character Lou Reed - "Street Hassle" - Street Hassle [Loops] Live phone caller & Ken - "Having a great winter" Carel Struycken, Kyle MacLachlan (voices), David Lynch, Mark Frost (writers) - "Don't search for all the answers at once" - Twin Peaks: Season 2 episode 1 [Better to listen than to talk. A path is formed by laying one stone at a time.] Live phone caller & Ken - "Daytime (mossy lighthouse)" Ken - "Trembling and shaking" Live phone caller & Ken - "Transitional moment (mossy lighthouse)" Ken - "Shape and timelines" Ken - "Practice not being remembered" Explosions in the Sky - "Your Hand in Mine" - The Earth is Not a Cold Dead Place Ken - "Try to remember what you said, hope somebody was there as a witness" Charlie Kaufman - "Failure is a badge of honor, it means you risked failure" - BAFTA and BFI Screenwriters Lecture Series [Let's not worry about failure. And if you don't risk failure, you're never going to do anything that's different than what you've already done, or what somebody else has done. And just know that, that that's the choice you're making when you won't put yourself at jeopardy like that.] Martin Donovan (voice), Hal Hartley (writer) - "Intimacy list" - Surviving Desire [Kissing, caressing, holding, slapping, shouting, talking, waiting, sleeping, crying, listening, hoping, encouraging, forgiving, laughing, relenting.] Ken - "When did this happen? People speak of slipping out of time" Malcolm X - "I live like a man who is dead already. I have no fear whatsoever of anybody or anything." - Our history was destroyed by slavery [No, I don't worry. I'm a man who believed that I died 20 years ago.] Alexandre Desplat - "Closing credits music" - Birth Ken - "I remember that I wasn't sweating, moving forward in time" Spandau Ballet - "True" - True Andre Gregory (voice), Rupert Walters (writer) - "Mysteries going on all the time" - Some Girls [Right under our noses.] Ken - "Leaving one cookie over. What if I had 5 minutes? Then I'd worry that if I only had 7 minutes, I'd have enough" [How long do you need to fall in love with someone?] Explosions in the Sky - "Your Hand in Mine" - The Earth is Not a Cold Dead Place [with Spandau Ballet, David Wingo & Michael Linnen, Cowboy Junkies] Ken - "You can go back and edit. How long does it take us to unlearn everything?" [I think we already know everything. They probably already know. But it's probably time to tell them. You don't have time. This is good news.] Sawako - "White Sky Winter Chicada" - Hum Alan Watts - "Wanting what you are not divides you (from Intellectual Yoga)" - Philosophies of Asia [So long as you can be persuaded that there's something more you ought to be than you are, you've divided yourself.] Ken - "Assume their posture, see how you feel (I used to look down a lot, I feel like a child)" [Regression therapy, inner child] Andre Gregory (voice), Rupert Walters (writer) - "Mysteries going on all the time" - Some Girls [Piano loop] Pink Floyd - "Goodbye Cruel World" - The Wall [Bass loop] Al Bowlly (singer), Richard A. Whiting, Harry Akst (music), Gus Kahn (lyrics) - "Guilty" - Amelie s.t. Martin Donovan (voice), Hal Hartley (writer) - "Intimacy list" - Surviving Desire [Kissing, caressing, holding, slapping, shouting, talking, waiting, sleeping, crying, listening, hoping, encouraging, forgiving, laughing, relenting.] Ken - "You'll have a memory. I'm going to look straight at you" Cowboy Junkies - "Ring on the Sill" - Pale Sun Crescent Moon [Loops] Ken - "Remember this moment in time. You will look back and be glad we have no more devices, no more electronics, we only look directly at each other" [Appreciations] Set: Cowboy Junkies - "Ring on the Sill" - Pale Sun Crescent Moon [Loops, back in 2019] Ken - "We almost remember who we used to say we were, the identity we're supposed to put on" [We're not sure if it still fits] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Be Who You Are Today" - Show #522, from 5/4/2017 [Live on stage at Twisted Branch Tea Bazaar ] Set: Garth Stevenson - "Dawn" Ken - "Here it comes, something is going to come together" Lionel Richie - "Stuck On You" [Loops] Noam Chomsky - "Social Policy - Welfare for the Rich" Weyes Blood [Piano loop] Bill Cosby - "Conflict" - To Russell, My Brother, Whom I Slept With [Mind and body don't get along at all] Stan Dale - "Stop trying to be a good person. If I do nice things for you, maybe you'll love me?" Bill Cosby - "Seattle" [And you get a gorilla and then the old gorilla] Jesse Rose - "Night at the Dogs" Christine and the Queens - "Christine" [Loops] Mazzy Star - "Fade Into You" War On Drugs - "In Reverse" - Lost in the Dream [Loops] Martin Luther King Jr - "I'm afraid we're integrating into a burning house" Ken - "You've walked in on the middle of a bit of an experiment" Steve Paxton - "Taking care of your partner, and this third thing, what you are together" - In a Non-Wimpy Way War On Drugs - "Burning" - Lost in the Dream [Loops] Ken - "People are looking for the good bits" Live phone caller - "Luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. Planning is great, but being open is great" [over War On Drugs-In Reverse loops] War On Drugs - "In Reverse" - Lost in the Dream [Loops in 2019] Ken - "Disasters, looking for the lessons, we need tragedy, we need television, we need preparedness" War On Drugs - "Burning" [Loops in 2019] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Be Who You Are Today" - Show #522, from 5/4/2017 [Back in 2017!] Ken - "Self-indulgent. Sometimes I'm too ambitious" Elton John & Kiki Dee - "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" [Loops] Ken - "You're allowed to be a different person every day (you can be who you are today)" Timothy "Speed" Levitch - "Running from the cops, every day I feel like a fugitive" - The Cruise Kyle MacLachlan, David Lynch - "Better to listen than to talk, don't search for all the answers at once, a path is formed by laying one stone at a time" - Twin Peaks Lara Flynn-Boyle, David Lynch - "Crying" - Twin Peaks pilot episode Bill Cosby - "Seattle" [Gorilla loop] Lara Flynn-Boyle - "Crying" - Equinox - "Light and dark are equal" - Equinox Ken - "I don't like to explain, except that I love to explain, I just don't let myself do it. The crying is back. People expected crying" Lionel Richie - "Stuck On You" [Loops] Chevrolet - "The American Look (the freedom of individual choice)" Matthew Modine, Lara Flynn-Boyle - "There's always this pushing and pulling. I have my you. My whole life seems to be taking place without me in it" - Equinox Matthew Broderick - "First impulse was to demand that she admit she lied and cheated" - Election Frightened Rabbit - "The Wrestle" [Loops] Garth Stevenson - "Dawn" Ken - "None of it actually means anything, but it can mean everything" [Record them all] The Go Go's - "Our Lips Are Sealed (vocals only)" Moondog With Orchestra - "Stamping Ground" Ken - "You can look for meaning in your dreams" [Recording your dreams] John Carpenter - "Our impulses are being redirected. We are living in an artificially produced state of consciousness that resembles sleep" - They Live [The poor and the underclass are growing. Racial justice and human rights are non-existent. That is their primary objective: Keep us asleep, keep us selfish, keep us sedated.] Louis Hay - "Every thought we think and every word we speak is creating our future" Frightened Rabbit - "The Wrestle" [Loops] Steve Paxton - "The preservation of all concerned. Not injure or defeat or smash" - In a Non-Wimpy Way Steve Paxton - "If thinking is too slow, is an open state of mind useful? Seems to be" - Chute (from Contact Improv Archive 1972-1983) Steve Paxon - "A body could endure for decades (can't exclude fear)" - Chute (from Contact Improv Archive 1972-1983) Ken - "Some people are apparently transparent (start to unthink)" Ken - "There were a lot of things. I'll just name one of them: Lionel Richie" [I have to look away to think] Frightened Rabbit - "The Wrestle" [Final loops] Bill Cosby - "Seattle" Set: Elton John & Kiki Dee - "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" [Loops back in 2019] Ken - "This is the moment after. This is everything you've dreamed of. This is everything everybody has told you to want." Ken - "All the thoughts from before seem to be relevant again. We reinvent the wheel and we are the wheel and we imagine the wheel" W. G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life theme" - My So-Called Life [Layers] End of set https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/83895

Ken - "Countdown" East Forest - "10 Laws" - The Education of the Individual Soul [Loops] Ken - "Everything is impossible, and it's going to happen anyway" East Forest - "10 Laws" - The Education of the Individual Soul [Always rest whenever you can] - "Phone dial tone test" Owl City - "Fireflies" [Loops] Miranda July - "WSNO" - The Binet-Simon Test David Weinstein - "Brief moment" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 God Body Disconnect - "Rise of the Dormant Host" - Dredge Portals [Layers] Stanley Kubrick - "HAL 9000 (Dialog Montage)" - 2001: A Space Odyssey (Limited edition) Alan Watts - "Limits of Language" Clive Wearing - "Living Without Memory (Part 2a)" - BBC Firesign Theatre - "In The Next World, You're on Your Own" - In The Next World, You're On Your Own Gene Wilder - "Accept our failures with quiet dignity and grace" - Young Frankenstein Steve Paxton - "I have little memory, muscular or mental, of what I've danced" - Chute [The specific movements that my body executes when I improvise do not register consciously, and I can't reconstitute them.] Pink Floyd - "My memory of it is this room full of tapes running around" - Dark Side of the Moon (Classic Albums) Guy Pearce - "You think you're supposed to recognize somebody, you fake it, you bluff it" - Memento Steve Paxton - "Memory of past judgments tells me that prejudging is not secure. Memory cannot function consciosly." - Chute [At these speeds, I can't think my way to safety] Barry Miller, Kathleen Turner - "Time is like a burrito, you can fill it with whatever you want" - Peggy Sue Got Married Guy Pearce - "Memories can be distorted" - Memento Guy Pearce, Carrie-Anne Moss - "You don't remember me" - Memento Paul Spurrier - "I'll compute his head, memory, synaptic circuits. The brain's only a binary computer" - Max Headroom: 20 Minutes Into the Future (pilot movie) Alan Watts, Miranda July, Pink Floyd, Clive Wearing, Gene Wilder, 2001, God Body Disconnect - "All at once (quiet dignity and grace)" David Weinstein - "Kenzo reappeared" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 Firesign Theatre - "I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus" - I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus [with Owl City-Fireflies, and bits of other things (2001, Pink Floyd sample...)] Gene Wilder - "Class is dismissed + applause" - Young Frankenstein George C. Scott - "Medical failure list ("transplants")" - The Hospital Live phone call - "Trying to remember, haven't listened yet" [with Owl City] God Body Disconnect - "Rise of the Dormant Host" - Dredge Portals Ken - "From here, where will we go (stream feedback echo chamber)" [Our loops are shorter than ever] Live phone call - "I miss you, a very long time, forever, resonance, contact improvisation" [with God Body Disconnect] Justin Boyd - "When something's looping" - Sound and Time Ingrid Bergman, Joseph Cotten - "Sometimes it's hard to believe there ever was a night (this night will be a long night)" - Gaslight Live stream feedback echo chamber - "I love you, I miss you, bye" Ken - "The impossibility of this show, no time anymore, reasonably balanced life" - After Ken's Last Ever 6/14/17 Albert Brooks - "It's time to get out" - Lost in America Ken - "I suppose I'm surprised" Bill Murray - "Do something or you'll get no life experience, take some time off" - Charlie Rose interview about Rushmore 1/29/99 Andre Gregory - "What happens when people stay together a long time, they wind up dead or pregnant" - Some Girls Fredric Lehne, James Spader - "Sometimes everything is a clue (jealousy suspicions)" - Dream Lover Clare Danes - "Sometimes someone says something small, fits into tiny place in your heart" - My So-Called Life: Pressure (Season 1, episode 13) Nicholas Cage - "Sometimes this kind of story turns out to be something more, like one of those Japanese balls" - Adaptation Matthew Broderick - "Sometimes I say things (I was only talking)" - Marie and Bruce Ken - "Sometimes I don't know, sometimes they say small things" Jeffrey Wright - "Sometimes finding one's purpose (a profound thing) isn't what it seems" - Lady in the Water Ken - "Sometimes, there are so many ways in, identifications" [with God Body Disconnect layers] Ken - "You can just go ahead and do it, just start, make a mistake, keep going, don't be afraid, do something" Live phone call - "I thought I would just do something (success)" Tony Robbins - "Failure can be your best friend" Live stream feedback echo chamber - "with live phone caller, Ken, Tony Robbins, God Body Disconnect..." God Body Disconnect - "Rise of the Dormant Host" - Dredge Portals [Bright light] Tony Robbins - "Just remember, it's impossible to fail" Ligeti, Gyorgy - "Lux Aeterna" - 2001: A Space Odyssey (Limited edition) [with Clive Wearing] Stanley Kubrick - "HAL 9000 (Dialog Montage)" - 2001: A Space Odyssey (Limited edition) Stanley Kubrick Harry Nilsson - "Everybody's Talkin'" - Everybody's Talkin' [Loops, with Ligeti/Gyorgy and God Body Disconnect] John Wood, Matthew Broderick, Ally Sheedy - "Futility: Extinction is inevitable, nature knows when to move on" - WarGames Gene Wilder - "I am not interested in death, the only thing that concerns me is the preservation of life!" - Young Frankenstein Ken - "Unpreparedness for this show" - Before Ken's Last Ever 6/14/17 Ken - "Impossibility of this show" - After Ken's Last Ever 6/14/17 ? - "?" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 Ken - "Rushes to show, doing it once again" - Before Ken's Last Ever 6/20/17 Miranda July - "Medical Wonder" - The Binet-Simon Test David Weinstein - "Kenzo's up after this, working his fingers to the bone" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 Negativland, Don Joyce, Mike Anderson - "Dreams Part 2" - Over the Edge Jane Seymour - "The man of my dreams is almost faded" - Somewhere in Time [Romance] Rossano Brazzi - "You're hungry, eat the ravioli" - Summertime East Forest - "10 Laws" - The Education of the Individual Soul Jane Seymour - "I've lived without it all my life" - Somewhere in Time [Romance] Tony Robbins - "Assignment: Meet your needs to create ultimate fulfillment" - PPII - 24 - The Driving Force The Six Human Needs (Part 2) Somewhere in Time & Young Frankenstein - "Applause x2" Jane Seymour - "The man of my dreams is almost faded" - Somewhere in Time Clare Danes - "Sometimes someone says something really small, it just fits into this empty place in your heart" - My So-Called Life: Pressure (Season 1, episode 13) Jane Seymour - "What would I say to him? Is it any wonder I failed to recognize you?" - Somewhere in Time [Written by Richard Matheson] Lara Flynn-Boyle - "I know should be sad, but it's like I'm having the most beautiful dream and the most terrible nightmare all at once" - Twin Peaks Season 1 episode 2: Traces to Nowhere George Peppard - "People do fall in love" - Breakfast at Tiffany's Madchen Amick - "In spite of everything, I love you, I really truly love you" - Dream Lover Lara Flynn-Boyle - "She loves him, she had an opportunity" - Equinox Ken - "Don't be ashamed" Diane Baker - "Why do people lie in the light, and wait until dark to make love" - Mirage Harrison Ford - "Nobody loves America more than I do, I couldn't bear to watch" - Mosquito Coast Adam Sandler - "I have so much strength in me, you have no idea" - Punch-Drunk Love Stan Dale - "If I do nice things for you, maybe you'll love me?" - Human Awareness Institute Fairuza Balk - "I love you so much" - Return to Oz Nicholas Cage - "That love was mine. I can love whoever I want" - Adaptation Gregory Peck - "If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space" - Mirage Fairuza Balk - "I'll never forget any of you. I didn't expect to go so soon, hadn't said goodbye yet" - Return to Oz Judy Garland - "There's no place like home" - Wizard of Oz Ken - "Who is the man of your dreams? You never have to let go" [with Harry Nilsson-Everybody's Talkin' loops] Ken - "Identification" Ken - "Why don't you change? Like I want you to? Like you're supposed to? Normal? Sane? Common sense?" Ken - "Life is counting down/counting up" Ken - "All of your life has built up to this moment" Ken - "In this show there is no next song" Ken - "I don't even have enough time" Ken - "Identification" Harry Nilsson - "Everybody's Talkin'" - Everybody's Talkin' [No more loops] Wayne Dyer - "We become attached" https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/81785

Ken - "Countdown" East Forest - "10 Laws" - The Education of the Individual Soul [Loops] Ken - "Everything is impossible, and it's going to happen anyway" East Forest - "10 Laws" - The Education of the Individual Soul [Always rest whenever you can] - "Phone dial tone test" Owl City - "Fireflies" [Loops] Miranda July - "WSNO" - The Binet-Simon Test David Weinstein - "Brief moment" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 God Body Disconnect - "Rise of the Dormant Host" - Dredge Portals [Layers] Stanley Kubrick - "HAL 9000 (Dialog Montage)" - 2001: A Space Odyssey (Limited edition) Alan Watts - "Limits of Language" Clive Wearing - "Living Without Memory (Part 2a)" - BBC Firesign Theatre - "In The Next World, You're on Your Own" - In The Next World, You're On Your Own Gene Wilder - "Accept our failures with quiet dignity and grace" - Young Frankenstein Steve Paxton - "I have little memory, muscular or mental, of what I've danced" - Chute [The specific movements that my body executes when I improvise do not register consciously, and I can't reconstitute them.] Pink Floyd - "My memory of it is this room full of tapes running around" - Dark Side of the Moon (Classic Albums) Guy Pearce - "You think you're supposed to recognize somebody, you fake it, you bluff it" - Memento Steve Paxton - "Memory of past judgments tells me that prejudging is not secure. Memory cannot function consciosly." - Chute [At these speeds, I can't think my way to safety] Barry Miller, Kathleen Turner - "Time is like a burrito, you can fill it with whatever you want" - Peggy Sue Got Married Guy Pearce - "Memories can be distorted" - Memento Guy Pearce, Carrie-Anne Moss - "You don't remember me" - Memento Paul Spurrier - "I'll compute his head, memory, synaptic circuits. The brain's only a binary computer" - Max Headroom: 20 Minutes Into the Future (pilot movie) Alan Watts, Miranda July, Pink Floyd, Clive Wearing, Gene Wilder, 2001, God Body Disconnect - "All at once (quiet dignity and grace)" David Weinstein - "Kenzo reappeared" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 Firesign Theatre - "I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus" - I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus [with Owl City-Fireflies, and bits of other things (2001, Pink Floyd sample...)] Gene Wilder - "Class is dismissed + applause" - Young Frankenstein George C. Scott - "Medical failure list ("transplants")" - The Hospital Live phone call - "Trying to remember, haven't listened yet" [with Owl City] God Body Disconnect - "Rise of the Dormant Host" - Dredge Portals Ken - "From here, where will we go (stream feedback echo chamber)" [Our loops are shorter than ever] Live phone call - "I miss you, a very long time, forever, resonance, contact improvisation" [with God Body Disconnect] Justin Boyd - "When something's looping" - Sound and Time Ingrid Bergman, Joseph Cotten - "Sometimes it's hard to believe there ever was a night (this night will be a long night)" - Gaslight Live stream feedback echo chamber - "I love you, I miss you, bye" Ken - "The impossibility of this show, no time anymore, reasonably balanced life" - After Ken's Last Ever 6/14/17 Albert Brooks - "It's time to get out" - Lost in America Ken - "I suppose I'm surprised" Bill Murray - "Do something or you'll get no life experience, take some time off" - Charlie Rose interview about Rushmore 1/29/99 Andre Gregory - "What happens when people stay together a long time, they wind up dead or pregnant" - Some Girls Fredric Lehne, James Spader - "Sometimes everything is a clue (jealousy suspicions)" - Dream Lover Clare Danes - "Sometimes someone says something small, fits into tiny place in your heart" - My So-Called Life: Pressure (Season 1, episode 13) Nicholas Cage - "Sometimes this kind of story turns out to be something more, like one of those Japanese balls" - Adaptation Matthew Broderick - "Sometimes I say things (I was only talking)" - Marie and Bruce Ken - "Sometimes I don't know, sometimes they say small things" Jeffrey Wright - "Sometimes finding one's purpose (a profound thing) isn't what it seems" - Lady in the Water Ken - "Sometimes, there are so many ways in, identifications" [with God Body Disconnect layers] Ken - "You can just go ahead and do it, just start, make a mistake, keep going, don't be afraid, do something" Live phone call - "I thought I would just do something (success)" Tony Robbins - "Failure can be your best friend" Live stream feedback echo chamber - "with live phone caller, Ken, Tony Robbins, God Body Disconnect..." God Body Disconnect - "Rise of the Dormant Host" - Dredge Portals [Bright light] Tony Robbins - "Just remember, it's impossible to fail" Ligeti, Gyorgy - "Lux Aeterna" - 2001: A Space Odyssey (Limited edition) [with Clive Wearing] Stanley Kubrick - "HAL 9000 (Dialog Montage)" - 2001: A Space Odyssey (Limited edition) Stanley Kubrick Harry Nilsson - "Everybody's Talkin'" - Everybody's Talkin' [Loops, with Ligeti/Gyorgy and God Body Disconnect] John Wood, Matthew Broderick, Ally Sheedy - "Futility: Extinction is inevitable, nature knows when to move on" - WarGames Gene Wilder - "I am not interested in death, the only thing that concerns me is the preservation of life!" - Young Frankenstein Ken - "Unpreparedness for this show" - Before Ken's Last Ever 6/14/17 Ken - "Impossibility of this show" - After Ken's Last Ever 6/14/17 ? - "?" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 Ken - "Rushes to show, doing it once again" - Before Ken's Last Ever 6/20/17 Miranda July - "Medical Wonder" - The Binet-Simon Test David Weinstein - "Kenzo's up after this, working his fingers to the bone" - Ridgewood Radio on WFMU's GTDR 6/21/17 Negativland, Don Joyce, Mike Anderson - "Dreams Part 2" - Over the Edge Jane Seymour - "The man of my dreams is almost faded" - Somewhere in Time [Romance] Rossano Brazzi - "You're hungry, eat the ravioli" - Summertime East Forest - "10 Laws" - The Education of the Individual Soul Jane Seymour - "I've lived without it all my life" - Somewhere in Time [Romance] Tony Robbins - "Assignment: Meet your needs to create ultimate fulfillment" - PPII - 24 - The Driving Force The Six Human Needs (Part 2) Somewhere in Time & Young Frankenstein - "Applause x2" Jane Seymour - "The man of my dreams is almost faded" - Somewhere in Time Clare Danes - "Sometimes someone says something really small, it just fits into this empty place in your heart" - My So-Called Life: Pressure (Season 1, episode 13) Jane Seymour - "What would I say to him? Is it any wonder I failed to recognize you?" - Somewhere in Time [Written by Richard Matheson] Lara Flynn-Boyle - "I know should be sad, but it's like I'm having the most beautiful dream and the most terrible nightmare all at once" - Twin Peaks Season 1 episode 2: Traces to Nowhere George Peppard - "People do fall in love" - Breakfast at Tiffany's Madchen Amick - "In spite of everything, I love you, I really truly love you" - Dream Lover Lara Flynn-Boyle - "She loves him, she had an opportunity" - Equinox Ken - "Don't be ashamed" Diane Baker - "Why do people lie in the light, and wait until dark to make love" - Mirage Harrison Ford - "Nobody loves America more than I do, I couldn't bear to watch" - Mosquito Coast Adam Sandler - "I have so much strength in me, you have no idea" - Punch-Drunk Love Stan Dale - "If I do nice things for you, maybe you'll love me?" - Human Awareness Institute Fairuza Balk - "I love you so much" - Return to Oz Nicholas Cage - "That love was mine. I can love whoever I want" - Adaptation Gregory Peck - "If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space" - Mirage Fairuza Balk - "I'll never forget any of you. I didn't expect to go so soon, hadn't said goodbye yet" - Return to Oz Judy Garland - "There's no place like home" - Wizard of Oz Ken - "Who is the man of your dreams? You never have to let go" [with Harry Nilsson-Everybody's Talkin' loops] Ken - "Identification" Ken - "Why don't you change? Like I want you to? Like you're supposed to? Normal? Sane? Common sense?" Ken - "Life is counting down/counting up" Ken - "All of your life has built up to this moment" Ken - "In this show there is no next song" Ken - "I don't even have enough time" Ken - "Identification" Harry Nilsson - "Everybody's Talkin'" - Everybody's Talkin' [No more loops] Wayne Dyer - "We become attached" http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/81785

Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film) loops" Ken - "You are here" Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film) layered loops forward and backward" Four Tet - "Hands (layered)" Anna Pacquin - "Hey hey hey hey, c'mon geese!" - Fly Away Home Airhead - "South Congress" The Residents - "The Festival of Death" Negativland / KROB - "Over the Edge 7/20/18 with Star Trek samples" [Spock! Spock....!] Dustin O'Halloran - "An Ending, A Beginning" Constant Smiles - "Sea of Birds" - Lost Shlohmo - "Places" [Very brief] The Beatles - "Flying (Take 8+ overdubs)" Constant Smiles - "Red Crest" - Lost [Brief] Constant Smiles - "Wood Sprites" - Lost [Brief] Letherette - "Gas Stations and Restaurants" [Briefish] The Beatles - "Revolution 1 take 20 (take your knickers off)" Hal Hartley - "Nobody told me, how should I know, it wasn't my fault, you know I would, if I could I would, you know that" - Ambition The Beatles - "Because (vocal only)" The Beatles - "Sexy Sadie RM5" The Beatles - "Across the Universe (take 2)" The Beatles - "All You Need is Love (warmup)" The Beatles - "Strawberry Fields Forever (rehearsals)" The Beatles - "When I'm 64 (take 4)" The Beatles - "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (vocals only)" The Beatles - "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (guitar only)" The Beatles - "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (horns only)" The Beatles - "She's Leaving Home (Instrumental Take 1)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (take unknown)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (track 2)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (track 3)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (track 4)" The Beatles - "She's Leaving Home (Instrumental Take 1)" Llewellyn ap Gruffydd - "The End" [Very brief] Noah Baumbach - "These are things we suggest you say to your father before it's too late" - The Meyerowitz Stories [I love you, I forgive you, forgive me, thank you, goodbye] The Beatles - "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away (takes 1, 2 and 5)" - Anthology 2 [Paul's broken a glass] The Beatles - "I'm Looking Through You (layers)" The War On Drugs - "You Don't Have to Go loops" Disc Image - "Coffee Cup at the Edge of Time" [Brief?] Tycho - "Cascade" [Brief?] Laura Dern - "Kayak scene (there is time)" - Enlightened, season 1 episode 4 A kid - "Have you ever had a dream you could do anything?" Harlan Ellison - "Yeah, everything makes me angry (I'd give anything to be mellow, I'd be one of the slaves and the walking dead, but I'd give anything...)" - Dreams With Sharp Teeth [Rest in anger] Laura Dern - "Somebody Else's Life" - Enlightened, season 1 episode 3 Ken - "Identification (just enough time, childhood Beatles mixing)" [With The Beatles-When I'm 64] The Beatles - "When I'm 64 (take 4)" Phone phreaking - "westwsh2" Anna Pacquin - "Hey hey hey hey, c'mon geese!" - Fly Away Home Moby - "Grace" Eumir Deodato - "Theme from Star Trek" Nickelback - "Gotta Be Somebody (sped up 20%)" [Written and produced by Mutt Lange (nobody wants to be the last one there)] Eumir Deodato - "Also Sprach Zarathustra" Rolling Stones - "Paint it Black" [Brief] Rolling Stones - "As Tears Go By" The Notwist - "Scoop" Julee Cruise / Angelo Badalamenti - "The World Spins" Khruang Bing - "A Calf is Born in Winter" - A Calf is Born in Winter The Police - "Every Breath You Take (Kenzo ambient guitar mix)" Live phone caller (possibilitywaves) - "So beautiful (thank you for the surprising beauty)" Procol Harum - "A Whiter Shade Of Pale (vocals and organ)" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (strings)" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (piano)" Ken - "Call in live" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (original mix)" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (Instrumental Club Mix)" Matthew Modine - "Leaving the city, things can change just like that" - Equinox - "Travel, why would you travel? You've never done it before! You were born here!" - Equinox - "I feel happy of myself! Everybody, I know you can believe in yourself!" Billy Bob Thornton - "I was the ghost. Everyone avoided looking at me. I didn't see anyone, and no one saw me" - The Man Who Wasn't There (movie) Four Tet - "Harmony One" Annie and cast - "It's a hard knock life loops" - Annie the musical Annie and cast - "It's a hard knock life loops" - Annie the movie Constant Smiles - "Out on Radar" - Lost Bibio - "Lovers' Carvings" Blind Pilot - "We Are the Tide" Shallou feat. Wales - "Begin" Headstrong feat. Tiff Lacey - "The Truth (Reuben Halsey Chillout Remix)" Land of Talk - "This Time" Orion and the Melted Crayons - "Breathe" - Breathe EP - "Wherever you go, people will love you, people are going to love you, they love you, everyone loves you" - Delivery Man movie Terry Gilliam - "Excerpts (making sense of the good things in life, bargains galore)" - The Zero Theorem Negativland / KROB - "Over the Edge 7/20/18" Harlan Ellison - "They seem imposed upon if you remove that giant tit from their mouth. People are stupid because TV gives you everything (radio is wonderful)" - Dreams With Sharp Teeth Nada Surf - "Blizzard of 77 loop" Ken - "Everybody Will Leave You monologue" https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/80668

Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film) loops" Ken - "You are here" Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film) layered loops forward and backward" Four Tet - "Hands (layered)" Anna Pacquin - "Hey hey hey hey, c'mon geese!" - Fly Away Home Airhead - "South Congress" The Residents - "The Festival of Death" Negativland / KROB - "Over the Edge 7/20/18 with Star Trek samples" [Spock! Spock....!] Dustin O'Halloran - "An Ending, A Beginning" Constant Smiles - "Sea of Birds" - Lost Shlohmo - "Places" [Very brief] The Beatles - "Flying (Take 8+ overdubs)" Constant Smiles - "Red Crest" - Lost [Brief] Constant Smiles - "Wood Sprites" - Lost [Brief] Letherette - "Gas Stations and Restaurants" [Briefish] The Beatles - "Revolution 1 take 20 (take your knickers off)" Hal Hartley - "Nobody told me, how should I know, it wasn't my fault, you know I would, if I could I would, you know that" - Ambition The Beatles - "Because (vocal only)" The Beatles - "Sexy Sadie RM5" The Beatles - "Across the Universe (take 2)" The Beatles - "All You Need is Love (warmup)" The Beatles - "Strawberry Fields Forever (rehearsals)" The Beatles - "When I'm 64 (take 4)" The Beatles - "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (vocals only)" The Beatles - "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (guitar only)" The Beatles - "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (horns only)" The Beatles - "She's Leaving Home (Instrumental Take 1)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (take unknown)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (track 2)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (track 3)" The Beatles - "A Day in the Life (track 4)" The Beatles - "She's Leaving Home (Instrumental Take 1)" Llewellyn ap Gruffydd - "The End" [Very brief] Noah Baumbach - "These are things we suggest you say to your father before it's too late" - The Meyerowitz Stories [I love you, I forgive you, forgive me, thank you, goodbye] The Beatles - "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away (takes 1, 2 and 5)" - Anthology 2 [Paul's broken a glass] The Beatles - "I'm Looking Through You (layers)" The War On Drugs - "You Don't Have to Go loops" Disc Image - "Coffee Cup at the Edge of Time" [Brief?] Tycho - "Cascade" [Brief?] Laura Dern - "Kayak scene (there is time)" - Enlightened, season 1 episode 4 A kid - "Have you ever had a dream you could do anything?" Harlan Ellison - "Yeah, everything makes me angry (I'd give anything to be mellow, I'd be one of the slaves and the walking dead, but I'd give anything...)" - Dreams With Sharp Teeth [Rest in anger] Laura Dern - "Somebody Else's Life" - Enlightened, season 1 episode 3 Ken - "Identification (just enough time, childhood Beatles mixing)" [With The Beatles-When I'm 64] The Beatles - "When I'm 64 (take 4)" Phone phreaking - "westwsh2" Anna Pacquin - "Hey hey hey hey, c'mon geese!" - Fly Away Home Moby - "Grace" Eumir Deodato - "Theme from Star Trek" Nickelback - "Gotta Be Somebody (sped up 20%)" [Written and produced by Mutt Lange (nobody wants to be the last one there)] Eumir Deodato - "Also Sprach Zarathustra" Rolling Stones - "Paint it Black" [Brief] Rolling Stones - "As Tears Go By" The Notwist - "Scoop" Julee Cruise / Angelo Badalamenti - "The World Spins" Khruang Bing - "A Calf is Born in Winter" - A Calf is Born in Winter The Police - "Every Breath You Take (Kenzo ambient guitar mix)" Live phone caller (possibilitywaves) - "So beautiful (thank you for the surprising beauty)" Procol Harum - "A Whiter Shade Of Pale (vocals and organ)" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (strings)" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (piano)" Ken - "Call in live" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (original mix)" Avicii - "Fade Into Darkness (Instrumental Club Mix)" Matthew Modine - "Leaving the city, things can change just like that" - Equinox - "Travel, why would you travel? You've never done it before! You were born here!" - Equinox - "I feel happy of myself! Everybody, I know you can believe in yourself!" Billy Bob Thornton - "I was the ghost. Everyone avoided looking at me. I didn't see anyone, and no one saw me" - The Man Who Wasn't There (movie) Four Tet - "Harmony One" Annie and cast - "It's a hard knock life loops" - Annie the musical Annie and cast - "It's a hard knock life loops" - Annie the movie Constant Smiles - "Out on Radar" - Lost Bibio - "Lovers' Carvings" Blind Pilot - "We Are the Tide" Shallou feat. Wales - "Begin" Headstrong feat. Tiff Lacey - "The Truth (Reuben Halsey Chillout Remix)" Land of Talk - "This Time" Orion and the Melted Crayons - "Breathe" - Breathe EP - "Wherever you go, people will love you, people are going to love you, they love you, everyone loves you" - Delivery Man movie Terry Gilliam - "Excerpts (making sense of the good things in life, bargains galore)" - The Zero Theorem Negativland / KROB - "Over the Edge 7/20/18" Harlan Ellison - "They seem imposed upon if you remove that giant tit from their mouth. People are stupid because TV gives you everything (radio is wonderful)" - Dreams With Sharp Teeth Nada Surf - "Blizzard of 77 loop" Ken - "Everybody Will Leave You monologue" http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/80668

Ken - "Identification" Johann Sebastian Bach - "Mir Hat Die Welt Tr Blich Gericht" - Mattus Passion 2 Johann Sebastian Bach - "So Ist Mein Jesus Nun Gefangen" - Mattus Passion 2 George Lucas, Walter Murch - "How shall the new environment be programmed? It all happened so slowly that most men failed to realize that anything had happened at all." - THX-1138 Live stream feedback echo chamber - "Give the Drummer Radio live stream" Ken - "Check" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's East Extra Radioganza Lover" - Show #460, from 6/26/13 [Contains many samples, and shows within shows, not listed here. Try looking here] Linda Draper - "Shine" - Keepsake [Loop] Medicine Calf - "Oof" - Urgrund Broken Little Sister - "A To Fade In (Adorable cover)" - Little Darla Has a Treat for You Vol. 28 (V/A) [Piano loop built from Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDR 7/3/13] CocoRosie - "Smokey Taboo" - Grey Oceans James Burke - "If you didn't fit the mold, you were rejected" - Connections: The Day the Universe Changed Ken - "Testing the limits, pushing out to the edges, notice when you've gone too far" Max Headroom - "This junk is a machine, it is a computer-generated geek. It is useless" - "God knows nothing of the potential of the microchip or the silicon revolution" - Time Bandits John Wayne - "The Pledge of Allegiance" - America, Why I Love Her [a.k.a. Marion Morrison] Medicine Calf - "Day Cake" - Urgrund Mark Sgaelt - "fel lo" Ken - "You see that panicked look come across someone's face. Then you have a choice. You can find new edges. We can finish conversations at the pre-determined time." [But other shapes are possible. With Linda Draper loop and CocoRosie] Bruce Schneier - "Liars and Outliers" - Liars and Outliers-Google Talk 6/17/13 Eric Prydz, Steve Winwood - "Call On Me" [Loop, via 1982's Valerie] James Burke - "You wanted straight streets to move weapons, so safe streets were built, behind walls, all you needed was food, and ammunication" - Connections: The Day the Universe Changed Clint Mansell - "Together We Will Live Forever" - The Fountain soundtrack Clint Mansell - "Death Is The Road To Awe" - The Fountain soundtrack Leo Delibes - "Lakme (Excerpt)" - The Hunger movie soundtrack Ken - "I don't know why. We can try to look for meaning in the random occurances all around us. Things are happening for a reason, they're happening to us. You can speak truth to lies." [You can create alternative realities to truth. With Clint Mansell and Delibes] David Letterman's guest - "It's getting so you can't tell the mutants from the androids" - Dave Letterman's Summer Time Sunshine Happy Hour Big City Orchestra - "A Child's Garden of Noise" - A Child's Garden of Noise [There ought to be a sign that says, quiet please!] Procol Harum - "A Whiter Shade of Pale" Van Morrison - "Tupelo Honey" [Loops] Cato Institute - "Property Rights 21st Century" - Cato Institute Book Forum Alan Watts - "Om" - Om - The Sound of Hinduism [with lazy live Tupelo Honey loops. Who puts it on, your body? What an act that is? And who put that on, your mother and father? Deep in the middle of your heart, you know it. The you in you is the same as the you in me. You're not just some tourist visiting here for a short time. You belong here. You are the energy of the world. You don't know who you are. You can't really get at yourself, just as the fingertip can't touch itself.] Live phone caller - "Guitar" Alan Watts - "The mind is like a piece of burnt wood" Ken - "We bring each other fish dances, and earthy delights" [w/continued live loops of Van Morrison] Kurt Vile - "Wakin On A Pretty Day" - Wakin on a Pretty Daze Mark Mothersbaugh - "Mothersbaugh's Canon" - Royal Tenenbaums Soundtrack Bruce Dern - "The difference is that I grew it, and I picked it, and you could smell it..." - Silent Running movie [Real food] Donald Sutherland - "Any step that one takes is useful, is positive, has to be positive, because it is a part of life. Even negation of the previous step is a part of life" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "Nothing can hurt if you do not see it as hurtful, nothing can destroy if you do not see it as destructive" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "If it works, fine! If it fails, fine. Look elsewhere for satisfaction" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "Not only are the legal questions that I ask you meaningless, but so too are the inner questoins that you ask yourself meaningless" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "You all know why we're here" Donald Sutherland - "Everyone accepts it: Ritual" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "Betrayal, too, is all right, it too is a part of what we all are" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "each of these is an answer for somebody" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "I will not put them down for that" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "In as much as this ceremony connotes an abandonment of ritual in the search for truth, I agreed to perform it" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "The odds are not good" - Little Murders Ghana Postal Workers - "Canceling Stamps At The University Of Ghana Post Office" - Worlds of Music 1 Grey Revell - "Lost in Graceland" [Layered] Ken - "Maybe things can be heard" Fridge - "A Slow" - Semaphore Dan Deacon - "USA Iii. Rail" - America Ken - "Identification 2018" [with Dan Deacon] Dan Deacon - "USA Iii. Rail" - America [Dan Deacon explosive section: with Robert De Niro ("now you can't make a move without a form") + The Prisoner ("in your hearts must still be the desire to be a human being" "this is a serious breach of etiquette") + Steven Soderbergh ("it should lay out a new course of action that can change direction at any time") + Barack Obama ("If you can't trust the executive branch, the judiciary, or congress, we're going to have some problems") + Andre Gregory ("escape, before it's too late") + Margarita Levieva ("the whole secret of power is to make it unresponsive")] Miranda July - "Everyone ultimately believes that they don't have credentials" - Miranda July interview Jacques Tati - "You have the respect of the young generation, or you have the respect of the bank of France. It's a choice" [On PlayTime] Patrick McGoohan - "this farce,20th cent democ,solitary confinement,tried to break you,heads must be brain,desire to be human,serious breach of ettiquette" - The Prisoner, episode 4: The Schizoid Man Patrick McGoohan - "some who talk,some leave place,much prisoner as i am,doesn't matter who #1 is,both sides are the same,world order" - The Prisoner, episode 4: The Schizoid Man [Has it ever occurred to you that you're just as much a prisoner as I am?] Jonathan Pryce, Robert De Nero - "simpler to work with central services,couldn't stand paperwork,expect certain amt,go anywhere,man alone,whole country sectioned off,can't make move without form" - Brazil [I couldn't even turn on a tap without filling out a 27B-6] Patrick McGoohan - "Brainwashed imbeciles" - The Prisoner Steven Soderbergh - "It should be lengthy enough to seem substantial, yet concise enough to feel breezy" - Schizopolis Michael Kamen - "Central Services/The Office" - Brazil s.t. Patrick McGoohan - "In your heads must still be the remnants of a brain, in your hearts must still be the desire to be a human being again (this is a most serious breach of etiquette)" - The Prisoner Barack Obama - "If people can't trust the executive branch, and can't trust congress, and can't trust judges, then we're going to have some problems" - Press conference [We've got congressional oversight and judicial oversight] Katharine Ross, John Aprea - "Can't just walk around at night, moved from city so i could walk around at night" - Stepford Wives Margarita Levieva - "You summon all your rage, you hurl yourself at it, and nothing happens. The whole secret to power is to make it unresponsive. The more arbitrary, the more cruel, the more we respect it,more we love it" - Noise Steven Soderbergh - "It should be serious, but with a slight wink" - Schizopolis Andre Gregory - "This is the beginning of the rest of the future. Escape, before it's too late." - My Dinner with Andre Patrick McGoohan - "Why don't you put us all into solitary confinement and have done with it" - The Prisoner Barack Obama - "The people who are involved in America's national security, they take this work very seriously" Ken - "If you can't trust this radio program, then we're going to have some problems" Ken - "How far past your boundaries can you move? How far through your limits can you take it? How long before you stop feeling like yourself. We'll make a contest out of it." The Monitors - "Believe in the Monitors" - The Monitors [The Monitors bring peace. Peace brings happiness.] The Monitors - "Monitors are your friends" - The Monitors [All life is sacred. All men are brothers. Reason, not force. The monitors will protect you. The monitors work for your welfare. Be kind. Kindness is strength. The monitors are kind. Helping others helps you.] Barack Obama - "They cherish our constitution. The last thing they'd be doing would be taking programs like this to listen to somebody's phone calls" Andre Gregory - "We really feel like Jews in Germany in the late 30's. Of course, the problem is, where to go, because it's obvious the whole world is going in the same direction" - My Dinner with Andre [There will be almost nobody left to remind us that there once was a species called a human being] Sound effects - "Large Crowd Of Pedestrians" - 235 City, Traffic Ambiences The Paper Magic Group, Inc. - "Terrified Crowd" - Scary Sounds Sound effects - "Jetfighter Take Off" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Prop Plane (fly by)" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Air Force Prop Plane (v1)" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Air Force Prop Plane (v2)" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "planet defeated 02" - Female Voices Sound effects - "Fighter Plane in Action" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Sound of single explosion" - 101 Digital Sound Effects - the machines of war Sound effects - "Sound of large dynamite explosion" - 101 Digital Sound Effects - the machines of war Sound effects - "Cockpit Warning Alarm" Sound effects - "Warning Defcon 1" Sound effects - "Warning reactor offline" - Doom 3 Female Computer voice Sound effects - "Nuclear explosion" - 101 Digital Sound Effects - the machines of war Ghana Postal Workers - "Canceling Stamps At The University Of Ghana Post Office" - worlds of m Andre Gregory - "now, of course Bjornstrand, feels that there is really almost no hope, and that we're probably going back to a very savage, lawless, terrifying period" - My Dinner with Andre Fleetwood Mac - "Sara" - Tusk [Loop] Ken - "Identification 2018" [with Ghana Postal Workers] Fleetwood Mac - "Sara" - Tusk [Loop] Ken - "It was all just a dream" Fridge - "Five Combs" - Happiness [Loops] Sound effects - "Large Crowd Of Pedestrians" - 235 City, Traffic Ambiences Holcombe Waller - "I Can Feel It" - Into the Dark Unknown [Shaker loops] Ken - "You are everything right now. You are everything right now." [with Holcombe Waller loops] Alan Watts - "Spiritual Authority II" - Myth and Religion Kraftwerk - "Autobahn" [Loops] Ken - "We have everything" Ken - "Post-logue 2018" [with Kraftwerk loops] Kraftwerk - "Autobahn" [Loops] http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/79896

Ken - "Identification" Johann Sebastian Bach - "Mir Hat Die Welt Tr Blich Gericht" - Mattus Passion 2 Johann Sebastian Bach - "So Ist Mein Jesus Nun Gefangen" - Mattus Passion 2 George Lucas, Walter Murch - "How shall the new environment be programmed? It all happened so slowly that most men failed to realize that anything had happened at all." - THX-1138 Live stream feedback echo chamber - "Give the Drummer Radio live stream" Ken - "Check" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's East Extra Radioganza Lover" - Show #460, from 6/26/13 [Contains many samples, and shows within shows, not listed here. Try looking here] Linda Draper - "Shine" - Keepsake [Loop] Medicine Calf - "Oof" - Urgrund Broken Little Sister - "A To Fade In (Adorable cover)" - Little Darla Has a Treat for You Vol. 28 (V/A) [Piano loop built from Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDR 7/3/13] CocoRosie - "Smokey Taboo" - Grey Oceans James Burke - "If you didn't fit the mold, you were rejected" - Connections: The Day the Universe Changed Ken - "Testing the limits, pushing out to the edges, notice when you've gone too far" Max Headroom - "This junk is a machine, it is a computer-generated geek. It is useless" - "God knows nothing of the potential of the microchip or the silicon revolution" - Time Bandits John Wayne - "The Pledge of Allegiance" - America, Why I Love Her [a.k.a. Marion Morrison] Medicine Calf - "Day Cake" - Urgrund Mark Sgaelt - "fel lo" Ken - "You see that panicked look come across someone's face. Then you have a choice. You can find new edges. We can finish conversations at the pre-determined time." [But other shapes are possible. With Linda Draper loop and CocoRosie] Bruce Schneier - "Liars and Outliers" - Liars and Outliers-Google Talk 6/17/13 Eric Prydz, Steve Winwood - "Call On Me" [Loop, via 1982's Valerie] James Burke - "You wanted straight streets to move weapons, so safe streets were built, behind walls, all you needed was food, and ammunication" - Connections: The Day the Universe Changed Clint Mansell - "Together We Will Live Forever" - The Fountain soundtrack Clint Mansell - "Death Is The Road To Awe" - The Fountain soundtrack Leo Delibes - "Lakme (Excerpt)" - The Hunger movie soundtrack Ken - "I don't know why. We can try to look for meaning in the random occurances all around us. Things are happening for a reason, they're happening to us. You can speak truth to lies." [You can create alternative realities to truth. With Clint Mansell and Delibes] David Letterman's guest - "It's getting so you can't tell the mutants from the androids" - Dave Letterman's Summer Time Sunshine Happy Hour Big City Orchestra - "A Child's Garden of Noise" - A Child's Garden of Noise [There ought to be a sign that says, quiet please!] Procol Harum - "A Whiter Shade of Pale" Van Morrison - "Tupelo Honey" [Loops] Cato Institute - "Property Rights 21st Century" - Cato Institute Book Forum Alan Watts - "Om" - Om - The Sound of Hinduism [with lazy live Tupelo Honey loops. Who puts it on, your body? What an act that is? And who put that on, your mother and father? Deep in the middle of your heart, you know it. The you in you is the same as the you in me. You're not just some tourist visiting here for a short time. You belong here. You are the energy of the world. You don't know who you are. You can't really get at yourself, just as the fingertip can't touch itself.] Live phone caller - "Guitar" Alan Watts - "The mind is like a piece of burnt wood" Ken - "We bring each other fish dances, and earthy delights" [w/continued live loops of Van Morrison] Kurt Vile - "Wakin On A Pretty Day" - Wakin on a Pretty Daze Mark Mothersbaugh - "Mothersbaugh's Canon" - Royal Tenenbaums Soundtrack Bruce Dern - "The difference is that I grew it, and I picked it, and you could smell it..." - Silent Running movie [Real food] Donald Sutherland - "Any step that one takes is useful, is positive, has to be positive, because it is a part of life. Even negation of the previous step is a part of life" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "Nothing can hurt if you do not see it as hurtful, nothing can destroy if you do not see it as destructive" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "If it works, fine! If it fails, fine. Look elsewhere for satisfaction" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "Not only are the legal questions that I ask you meaningless, but so too are the inner questoins that you ask yourself meaningless" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "You all know why we're here" Donald Sutherland - "Everyone accepts it: Ritual" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "Betrayal, too, is all right, it too is a part of what we all are" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "each of these is an answer for somebody" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "I will not put them down for that" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "In as much as this ceremony connotes an abandonment of ritual in the search for truth, I agreed to perform it" - Little Murders Donald Sutherland - "The odds are not good" - Little Murders Ghana Postal Workers - "Canceling Stamps At The University Of Ghana Post Office" - Worlds of Music 1 Grey Revell - "Lost in Graceland" [Layered] Ken - "Maybe things can be heard" Fridge - "A Slow" - Semaphore Dan Deacon - "USA Iii. Rail" - America Ken - "Identification 2018" [with Dan Deacon] Dan Deacon - "USA Iii. Rail" - America [Dan Deacon explosive section: with Robert De Niro ("now you can't make a move without a form") + The Prisoner ("in your hearts must still be the desire to be a human being" "this is a serious breach of etiquette") + Steven Soderbergh ("it should lay out a new course of action that can change direction at any time") + Barack Obama ("If you can't trust the executive branch, the judiciary, or congress, we're going to have some problems") + Andre Gregory ("escape, before it's too late") + Margarita Levieva ("the whole secret of power is to make it unresponsive")] Miranda July - "Everyone ultimately believes that they don't have credentials" - Miranda July interview Jacques Tati - "You have the respect of the young generation, or you have the respect of the bank of France. It's a choice" [On PlayTime] Patrick McGoohan - "this farce,20th cent democ,solitary confinement,tried to break you,heads must be brain,desire to be human,serious breach of ettiquette" - The Prisoner, episode 4: The Schizoid Man Patrick McGoohan - "some who talk,some leave place,much prisoner as i am,doesn't matter who #1 is,both sides are the same,world order" - The Prisoner, episode 4: The Schizoid Man [Has it ever occurred to you that you're just as much a prisoner as I am?] Jonathan Pryce, Robert De Nero - "simpler to work with central services,couldn't stand paperwork,expect certain amt,go anywhere,man alone,whole country sectioned off,can't make move without form" - Brazil [I couldn't even turn on a tap without filling out a 27B-6] Patrick McGoohan - "Brainwashed imbeciles" - The Prisoner Steven Soderbergh - "It should be lengthy enough to seem substantial, yet concise enough to feel breezy" - Schizopolis Michael Kamen - "Central Services/The Office" - Brazil s.t. Patrick McGoohan - "In your heads must still be the remnants of a brain, in your hearts must still be the desire to be a human being again (this is a most serious breach of etiquette)" - The Prisoner Barack Obama - "If people can't trust the executive branch, and can't trust congress, and can't trust judges, then we're going to have some problems" - Press conference [We've got congressional oversight and judicial oversight] Katharine Ross, John Aprea - "Can't just walk around at night, moved from city so i could walk around at night" - Stepford Wives Margarita Levieva - "You summon all your rage, you hurl yourself at it, and nothing happens. The whole secret to power is to make it unresponsive. The more arbitrary, the more cruel, the more we respect it,more we love it" - Noise Steven Soderbergh - "It should be serious, but with a slight wink" - Schizopolis Andre Gregory - "This is the beginning of the rest of the future. Escape, before it's too late." - My Dinner with Andre Patrick McGoohan - "Why don't you put us all into solitary confinement and have done with it" - The Prisoner Barack Obama - "The people who are involved in America's national security, they take this work very seriously" Ken - "If you can't trust this radio program, then we're going to have some problems" Ken - "How far past your boundaries can you move? How far through your limits can you take it? How long before you stop feeling like yourself. We'll make a contest out of it." The Monitors - "Believe in the Monitors" - The Monitors [The Monitors bring peace. Peace brings happiness.] The Monitors - "Monitors are your friends" - The Monitors [All life is sacred. All men are brothers. Reason, not force. The monitors will protect you. The monitors work for your welfare. Be kind. Kindness is strength. The monitors are kind. Helping others helps you.] Barack Obama - "They cherish our constitution. The last thing they'd be doing would be taking programs like this to listen to somebody's phone calls" Andre Gregory - "We really feel like Jews in Germany in the late 30's. Of course, the problem is, where to go, because it's obvious the whole world is going in the same direction" - My Dinner with Andre [There will be almost nobody left to remind us that there once was a species called a human being] Sound effects - "Large Crowd Of Pedestrians" - 235 City, Traffic Ambiences The Paper Magic Group, Inc. - "Terrified Crowd" - Scary Sounds Sound effects - "Jetfighter Take Off" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Prop Plane (fly by)" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Air Force Prop Plane (v1)" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Air Force Prop Plane (v2)" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "planet defeated 02" - Female Voices Sound effects - "Fighter Plane in Action" - Planes, Trains and Automobiles Sound effects - "Sound of single explosion" - 101 Digital Sound Effects - the machines of war Sound effects - "Sound of large dynamite explosion" - 101 Digital Sound Effects - the machines of war Sound effects - "Cockpit Warning Alarm" Sound effects - "Warning Defcon 1" Sound effects - "Warning reactor offline" - Doom 3 Female Computer voice Sound effects - "Nuclear explosion" - 101 Digital Sound Effects - the machines of war Ghana Postal Workers - "Canceling Stamps At The University Of Ghana Post Office" - worlds of m Andre Gregory - "now, of course Bjornstrand, feels that there is really almost no hope, and that we're probably going back to a very savage, lawless, terrifying period" - My Dinner with Andre Fleetwood Mac - "Sara" - Tusk [Loop] Ken - "Identification 2018" [with Ghana Postal Workers] Fleetwood Mac - "Sara" - Tusk [Loop] Ken - "It was all just a dream" Fridge - "Five Combs" - Happiness [Loops] Sound effects - "Large Crowd Of Pedestrians" - 235 City, Traffic Ambiences Holcombe Waller - "I Can Feel It" - Into the Dark Unknown [Shaker loops] Ken - "You are everything right now. You are everything right now." [with Holcombe Waller loops] Alan Watts - "Spiritual Authority II" - Myth and Religion Kraftwerk - "Autobahn" [Loops] Ken - "We have everything" Ken - "Post-logue 2018" [with Kraftwerk loops] Kraftwerk - "Autobahn" [Loops] https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/79896

Bloc Party - "The Pioneers (M83 Remix)" Ween - "The Mollusk" [Loop] Ken - "We're here now" Live phone caller - "Introducing, from The Bronx" Generationals - "Avery" [Loops] Gary Oldman - "Bring me everyone. Everyone!" - Leon: The Professional movie Anois - "A Noise" War On Drugs - "You Don't Have to Go" [Loops] Beach Fossils - "This Year" [Loops] - "If You Believe in Yourself (I feel happy of myself)" [You will get the hang of it, I know it! (I feel, I feel, I feel...)] Derek Sivers - "Obvious to you, amazing to others" Lara Flynn-Boyle - "It's like I'm having the most beautiful dream, and the most terrible nightmare, all at once" - Twin Peaks Jack Kornfield - "Meditations, part 12" - Your Buddha Nature Dan Seals - "Three Time Loser" [Loops] Orson Welles - "There is no wisdom in compromise" [I cannot compromise. My pictures don't work at all unless they work my way. They simply fall apart unless they're done my way.] Ricky Gervais - "More people hate it than love it. Luckily, you don't need everyone on the planet to like it" [You do it for you and like-minded people] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [With other bits, like Latter-Day Saints, background loops, Liz Phair Shatter] Live phone caller - "Hangs up, busy tone" Ken - "It all belongs to you and everyone" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [You may not get what you want, but it's OK to ask] Liz Phair - "Shatter" [Loops] Live phone caller & Ken - "Interruptions. How do we accept that it's all part of the same thing? Talk without thinking." [A word you haven't thought of yet. Look without knowing.] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [Take turns not giving the thing that's asked for] James Spader - "I wanna thank you with all sincerity, I've been sleepwalking my whole life and you've woken me up, and I feel alive now" - Dream Lover - "I feel happy of myself" Live phone caller (Rich) - "Have you ever had a dream?" Liz Phair - "Shatter" [Loops] Ken - "You don't have to know what it is" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [The door] Walter Murch - "You must defend your dreams, they're your most prized possession" Lara Flynn-Boyle - "I know I should be sad, it's like I'm having the most beautiful dream and the most terrible nightmare all at once" - Twin Peaks Jane Seymour - "The man of my dreams is almost faded now" - Somewhere in Time movie [Time travel romance] Ingrid Bergman, Charles Boyer - "They don't hang a man for that" - Gaslight [There were times when I thought I'd only dreamed those days.] William Hurt, Albert Brooks - "What do you do when your real life exceeds your dreams? (Keep it to yourself)" - Broadcast News movie Rossano Brazzi - "I am a man, and you are a woman. You are like a hungry child who is given ravioli to eat. No, you say, I want beefsteak. You are hungry. Eat the ravioli" - Summertime Adrien Brody - "How are you to imagine anything, if the images are always provided for you" - Detachment movie Genevieve Bujold - "Imagine whatever you say has impact. You can't just listen to me. I'm just a clown!" - Choose Me [Dir. Alan Rudolph] Tycho - "Awake" [Loops] Georges Delerue - "Le Grand choral" Ken - "You felt inspired. It all worked. Was it witnessed, could you capture it? How do you make any decisions? You mutate and fit your life into sections." Liz Phair - "Shatter" [Loops, more of song] Dan Seals - "Everything That Glitters (Is Not Gold)" [Intro looping, then whole song] Spoon - "Can I Sit" [Loop pitch shifting, with Dan Seals] Dan Seals - "Three Time Loser" [Loops] Steely Dan - "Midnite Cruiser" [Loops] David Weinstein - "The great wall of Kenzo" Beach Fossils - "This Year" [Loops] Walter Murch - "You get things you'd be unlikely to get if you'd set them up intentionally (Li)" [You can't predict when it's going to happen. The price you pay for it is a lot of material] - "Dare to Live Without Limits" [Brief] Walter Murch - "Tapestry of mono and stereo, shifts in environment" Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film)" [Loops] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "I'm going to put these earplugs in right now" - Limits (taking care) [I am not available right now] Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film)" [Backwards loops] [Monsters coming from above and below] Ken - "You can't be wrong about yourself" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 Tycho - "Awake" [Loops] Robert Redford - "Are there any questions? Any comments? Suggestions? I'd be happy to respond to anything that's on your mind" - The Candidate movie Patrick McGoohan - "It means what it is" - The Prisoner Melvyn Douglas - "There's so much left to do" - Being There David Cronenberg - "Forbidden images coming to you from a distant place that had great resonance for you" - The Directors: The Films of David Cronenberg (1x10) Hal Hartley - "You work and you work, and you make sacrifices. They don't let you do what it is that you're good at" - Ambition Walter Murch - "The power of sound" Walter Murch - "Make an alloy out of two metals that normally don't go together" Ween - "The Mollusk" [Loop] Generationals - "When They Fight, They Fight" [Loops] Hal Hartley - "No one told me, it wasn't my fault" - Ambition Live phone caller - "Guitar" Ken and live stream feedback - "You're still here" george - "Le Grand choral" Alexandre Desplat - "Mr. Fox in the Fields" - Fantastic Mr. Fox OST Alexandre Desplat - "Prologue Scene" - Birth s.t. Hal Hartley - "You know I would. How can you say that? It won't happen again, I promise. I did everything right. I didn't do exactly what you told me to..." - Ambition [I did what I could, and I did everything right.] Justin Hurwitz - "Mia & Sebastian's Theme" - La La Land s.t. Aimee Mann - "Wise Up" - Magnolia s.t. [Loops] Hal Hartley - "No matter what I achieve, I always have this irritating sensation of emptiness and futility. I want the image I have of myself and myself to become one." - Ambition [I want to change people's minds.] Aimee Mann - "Wise Up" - Magnolia s.t. [Loops, layers] Ken - "Everybody waited for everybody else. All will sparkle if you come out" [Some of the sparkles will be spikey, but they will shine.] Console with Der Dritte Raum - "Upon (Der Dritte Raum Trance Mix)" [Layers] fujitsu - "Azure" dj BC - "Nothing In Its Right Place (Roots, Radiohead)" Moby - "Grace" Ken and live stream feedback - "I guess that's it. I don't know how to make it stop" https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/79766

Bloc Party - "The Pioneers (M83 Remix)" Ween - "The Mollusk" [Loop] Ken - "We're here now" Live phone caller - "Introducing, from The Bronx" Generationals - "Avery" [Loops] Gary Oldman - "Bring me everyone. Everyone!" - Leon: The Professional movie Anois - "A Noise" War On Drugs - "You Don't Have to Go" [Loops] Beach Fossils - "This Year" [Loops] - "If You Believe in Yourself (I feel happy of myself)" [You will get the hang of it, I know it! (I feel, I feel, I feel...)] Derek Sivers - "Obvious to you, amazing to others" Lara Flynn-Boyle - "It's like I'm having the most beautiful dream, and the most terrible nightmare, all at once" - Twin Peaks Jack Kornfield - "Meditations, part 12" - Your Buddha Nature Dan Seals - "Three Time Loser" [Loops] Orson Welles - "There is no wisdom in compromise" [I cannot compromise. My pictures don't work at all unless they work my way. They simply fall apart unless they're done my way.] Ricky Gervais - "More people hate it than love it. Luckily, you don't need everyone on the planet to like it" [You do it for you and like-minded people] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [With other bits, like Latter-Day Saints, background loops, Liz Phair Shatter] Live phone caller - "Hangs up, busy tone" Ken - "It all belongs to you and everyone" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [You may not get what you want, but it's OK to ask] Liz Phair - "Shatter" [Loops] Live phone caller & Ken - "Interruptions. How do we accept that it's all part of the same thing? Talk without thinking." [A word you haven't thought of yet. Look without knowing.] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [Take turns not giving the thing that's asked for] James Spader - "I wanna thank you with all sincerity, I've been sleepwalking my whole life and you've woken me up, and I feel alive now" - Dream Lover - "I feel happy of myself" Live phone caller (Rich) - "Have you ever had a dream?" Liz Phair - "Shatter" [Loops] Ken - "You don't have to know what it is" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Ken's "Limits (taking care)" monologue" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 [The door] Walter Murch - "You must defend your dreams, they're your most prized possession" Lara Flynn-Boyle - "I know I should be sad, it's like I'm having the most beautiful dream and the most terrible nightmare all at once" - Twin Peaks Jane Seymour - "The man of my dreams is almost faded now" - Somewhere in Time movie [Time travel romance] Ingrid Bergman, Charles Boyer - "They don't hang a man for that" - Gaslight [There were times when I thought I'd only dreamed those days.] William Hurt, Albert Brooks - "What do you do when your real life exceeds your dreams? (Keep it to yourself)" - Broadcast News movie Rossano Brazzi - "I am a man, and you are a woman. You are like a hungry child who is given ravioli to eat. No, you say, I want beefsteak. You are hungry. Eat the ravioli" - Summertime Adrien Brody - "How are you to imagine anything, if the images are always provided for you" - Detachment movie Genevieve Bujold - "Imagine whatever you say has impact. You can't just listen to me. I'm just a clown!" - Choose Me [Dir. Alan Rudolph] Tycho - "Awake" [Loops] Georges Delerue - "Le Grand choral" Ken - "You felt inspired. It all worked. Was it witnessed, could you capture it? How do you make any decisions? You mutate and fit your life into sections." Liz Phair - "Shatter" [Loops, more of song] Dan Seals - "Everything That Glitters (Is Not Gold)" [Intro looping, then whole song] Spoon - "Can I Sit" [Loop pitch shifting, with Dan Seals] Dan Seals - "Three Time Loser" [Loops] Steely Dan - "Midnite Cruiser" [Loops] David Weinstein - "The great wall of Kenzo" Beach Fossils - "This Year" [Loops] Walter Murch - "You get things you'd be unlikely to get if you'd set them up intentionally (Li)" [You can't predict when it's going to happen. The price you pay for it is a lot of material] - "Dare to Live Without Limits" [Brief] Walter Murch - "Tapestry of mono and stereo, shifts in environment" Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film)" [Loops] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "I'm going to put these earplugs in right now" - Limits (taking care) [I am not available right now] Radiohead - "Exit Music (for a film)" [Backwards loops] [Monsters coming from above and below] Ken - "You can't be wrong about yourself" - Show #586, from 5/15/18 Tycho - "Awake" [Loops] Robert Redford - "Are there any questions? Any comments? Suggestions? I'd be happy to respond to anything that's on your mind" - The Candidate movie Patrick McGoohan - "It means what it is" - The Prisoner Melvyn Douglas - "There's so much left to do" - Being There David Cronenberg - "Forbidden images coming to you from a distant place that had great resonance for you" - The Directors: The Films of David Cronenberg (1x10) Hal Hartley - "You work and you work, and you make sacrifices. They don't let you do what it is that you're good at" - Ambition Walter Murch - "The power of sound" Walter Murch - "Make an alloy out of two metals that normally don't go together" Ween - "The Mollusk" [Loop] Generationals - "When They Fight, They Fight" [Loops] Hal Hartley - "No one told me, it wasn't my fault" - Ambition Live phone caller - "Guitar" Ken and live stream feedback - "You're still here" george - "Le Grand choral" Alexandre Desplat - "Mr. Fox in the Fields" - Fantastic Mr. Fox OST Alexandre Desplat - "Prologue Scene" - Birth s.t. Hal Hartley - "You know I would. How can you say that? It won't happen again, I promise. I did everything right. I didn't do exactly what you told me to..." - Ambition [I did what I could, and I did everything right.] Justin Hurwitz - "Mia & Sebastian's Theme" - La La Land s.t. Aimee Mann - "Wise Up" - Magnolia s.t. [Loops] Hal Hartley - "No matter what I achieve, I always have this irritating sensation of emptiness and futility. I want the image I have of myself and myself to become one." - Ambition [I want to change people's minds.] Aimee Mann - "Wise Up" - Magnolia s.t. [Loops, layers] Ken - "Everybody waited for everybody else. All will sparkle if you come out" [Some of the sparkles will be spikey, but they will shine.] Console with Der Dritte Raum - "Upon (Der Dritte Raum Trance Mix)" [Layers] fujitsu - "Azure" dj BC - "Nothing In Its Right Place (Roots, Radiohead)" Moby - "Grace" Ken and live stream feedback - "I guess that's it. I don't know how to make it stop" http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/79766

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, Jamon, Ken, and Todd touch on the exciting world of lawyers, accountants and bookkeepers, as well as a variety of finance-related topics such as cash flow and different types of accounting. Be sure to listen to the end of the episode as Jamon shares the vision for Season 2 of Building Infinite Red. Show Links & Resources YNAB – You Need A Budget Saturday Night Live Highlight: First CityWide Change Bank Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: Hello, everyone. Today we were talking about which topic to talk about, and we had the idea, how can we come up with a topic that's extremely boring, that no one wants to talk about, but actually is super important? So, we're going to talk about lawyers, accountants, bookkeepers, finance, and other things. Basically, how to start a business and still feed your family. Let's start off with you, Ken. If I were starting in business and you and I are sitting in the airport and I knew you had started one and I asked, "Hey, Ken. What should I worry about first off when I'm starting a business?" What would you say? KEN MILLER: I would tell you to go find a good accountant and a good lawyer right away. You don't need to pay them to set up the business for you. You can do that yourself or you can use a service like LegalZoom or something like that. But you need to have somebody who is familiar with the kind of business that you're planning to do. We have a great lawyer who happens to specialize in digital agencies. I've got an accountant that I've personally worked with for many, many years. It's not the cheapest, like you want your accountant to be good. A bookkeeper is sort of a different matter since your accountant is not doing your day to day books, and you don't necessarily need a bookkeeper right away because you're probably not going to have a lot of transactions right away. To be honest, I found it was helpful for me to just do it personally for a little period because then I understood what was going on better. JAMON HOLMGREN: Ken, what's the difference for those who may not know between an accountant and a bookkeeper? KEN: Well, I'm told bookkeeper is a little bit old fashioned, but it's still very descriptive. Your accountant, aka your CPA, your Certified Public Accountant, that is someone who will do your state and federal and maybe even international taxes for you. They may or may not have people who will keep your books and stuff. Now, bookkeepers, they're the ones who will record transactions coming in and going out basically, so that your books are an accurate reflection of what's happening in your business. Todd, do you want to interject? TODD: Yeah, just real quick. Sorry to be pedantic, but my wife's an accountant. Bookkeepers often are not accountants. Some of them are just people who started doing books at their company and continue to do it. When you get to accountants, you have two types of accountants: One is CPA, which is a tax accountant; and then there are other accountants who specialize in corporate stuff, like my wife. She went to college for it and is highly trained. KEN: That's the kind I recommend you get, is the kind of who is trained in accounting practices. JAMON: First of all, what's the more modern term for a bookkeeper? Is there? KEN: I think Heather liked the term, what was it? Financial assistant, something like that? JAMON: Okay. TODD: I think that's what she said. Heather is my wife, by the way. JAMON: And then secondly, what does an accountant give you that a financial assistant does not? KEN: Well, A, They are literally certified by the state. And B, They have experience in tax law. JAMON: CPA does, but they're more corporate accountant. They're going to bring more like ... It's my understanding that they can bring more strategic ... KEN: Yeah, they can be more strategic help, they can help you design your practices for paying people, for collecting money, because there's just a lot of i's and t's that need to be dotted and crossed. JAMON: Yeah, that makes sense. TODD: Yeah, not to keep on interrupting about accounting. Sorry, my wife's an accountant. JAMON: We're gonna play a little game. How many times will Todd mention that his wife is an accountant? TODD: All CPAs are accountants. Not all accountants are CPAs. My wife has absolutely no interest in being a CPA, she never did, it had nothing to do with her job. However, if you need ... One of the things she specializes in is international accounting. So, a bookkeeper is someone who enters data, basically. They're gonna get bills in from the outside via mail, they're gonna enter those into the bookkeeping system, or the accounting system, they're gonna pay invoices, whatever. They're a clerk. An accountant is more like a programmer. They investigate where things went wrong, they figure out the best ways to do things. If you have a half million dollars in pounds in the UK, and you need to transfer in the US as US dollars, how do you go about that? There's very different ways. Some are very expensive, some are not. So, that's ... An accountant spends a lot of time doing strategic-type accounting stuff, as opposed to data entry, which is more what your bookkeeper does. JAMON: Yeah, so when I started ClearSight back in 2005, one of my early employees, his dad was a controller, which is like kind of an accountant, but it's specifically to a- TODD: That's really interesting, Jamon. Did you know my wife was an accountant? JAMON: I did not know that, Todd. I hope you remind me again. A controller is basically, it's a type of accountant that's kind of high up in a company and focused on ... Basically, in charge of the company's finances, and ... So, he was a controller and I went to lunch with him and I asked him for advice. And the first question he asked me, this was kind of interesting because I did not expect this, he said, "How's your accounts receivable?" And I was like, "Uh ... I know what that is, but what do you mean by 'how is it'?" And he kind of helped me think through my terms, like how long until the payment was due, and was I taking money upfront? Which I wasn't, weirdly, I wasn't taking money upfront. I was just doing the work and hoping I'd get paid. TODD: Hoping is the key term. JAMON: Hoping, yeah. And more than once I didn't get paid. And that sucked, especially when I wasn't getting paid very much. KEN: That's definitely one of the harder things to learn when you start doing this, is if you've only ever worked at a company, you don't realize how much effort goes into just getting people to actually pay you, right? 99% of the time it isn't out of any malice, it's not people trying to mess with you, it's just their processes are also run by humans. Maybe they're a small company, maybe they're a big company and something got lost, or things didn't get signed off correctly, right? There's just a million little things that have to be kept track of. And so, whoever is doing your day to day accounting, be nice to them. TODD: Yes. KEN: Be nice to them because you really need to trust them to be on top of what they're doing. TODD: You do not want to piss off an accountant if you value eating, for sure. Cause they won't do anything wrong, but they will sure drag their feet on your particular account. One other things I wanted to add, especially with larger companies or companies that have accounting departments, accounting is never personal, okay? And Ken said they probably don't want to mess with you. They may not want to mess with you, but they may actually have a policy not to pay their vendors, which seems absurd but it's true. So, in other words, if you're sitting in an executive meeting at a company that has 5,000 people, and your cash-flow ... you need some cash or whatever. The directive to the accounting department could be, "Only pay the vendors with the highest interest, the top 25% of them. Do not pay anyone else." And so, it's not ... they're not trying to get to you, it's just business. KEN: I think it's also very tempting when you're ... If you're a creative person and you're getting into business and you wanna be able to be a partner to your clients, and that's all very laudable and we wanna do that and we strive to do that. But at the end of the day, when you're negotiating a contract, you have to take it seriously. You have to take what it says seriously because there may come a situation where it's no longer you and the friendly person you're talking to, it's just you and the contract and someone unfriendly. Or you and the contract and someone not unfriendly, but as Todd says they're just ... implementing a policy. It's a lot harder to do something about it than possible which ... It really highlights how important the relationship is, as well. So, you need to have a good contract that actually reflects what you and your counter-party actually mean. And you have to keep that relationship good all the way through. JAMON: Absolutely. We had a client a while back that wanted to use their own contract, which is not uncommon. I mean, we have our own kind of Master Services Agreement that we'll send over, but in this case they had their own, they wanted to send it over. And this sort of brings it back to having a good lawyer, because in this case, something fell through the cracks and we signed it without sending it over to our lawyer. And this was a big mistake because- TODD: Big mistake. KEN: Big mistake. Did we mention it was a very big mistake? TODD: My wife, who's an accountant, by the way, said it was a huge mistake. JAMON: Oh, she is? Oh, that's interesting. But what happened was the project started off really well, and it went very well through the first month. And then, abruptly, we don't know what happened because the whole way through the client was telling us we were doing good work. Even after things went weird, he was telling us that we were doing good work, which really didn't make sense. But he wanted out of this contract, or he wanted to hold our feet to the fire. And we realized, and we sent our contract over to our lawyer, and Ken ... Wasn't his response something like- KEN: He said it was the most punitive contract he'd ever seen. JAMON: And he said that it was designed to be used as a weapon. TODD: Yes. That's what he said. JAMON: Which was not a great place to be in after we had already signed this thing. TODD: Against us, by the way. Not for us. KEN: Yeah. JAMON: So, luckily this particular client ended up taking a route ... It wasn't an easy route, but he took a route out of our contract that let us off the hook, essentially, with some work from Ken. So, thanks Ken. But we made it through that one, but not everybody would. That could be a really big problem. So, having a good attorney, which we did, and actually using him, which we did not, is really important when you're putting these contracts together that you're talking about. And then, of course, there's a certain amount of teeth to it, so they will pay you. KEN: We designed our standard contract to be, we think, really, very fair. JAMON: I think so, yeah. KEN: And so, if a client wants to use their own contract, we now ... It always goes to the lawyer. It doesn't matter what it costs. And he's very reasonable with how he charges for that- TODD: Sorry to interrupt. That's a good rule. If you don't feel that it's worth paying your lawyer the $300 an hour, or whatever your lawyer costs, it goes up from there, trust me, because this project isn't big enough, then don't take the project. And that sounds harsh, but if you can't pay your lawyer to look at the contract, then don't sign the contract. It's not worth it to you. KEN: If it's a small project, we don't accept- JAMON: Yeah, and that's why we have a standard contract, because the lawyer drafted it. And so, we can send it over and we don't have to pay him every time. Of course, it costs more to have him draft it, but then if they sign it then we know that we're good to go. But if they want their own contract, you need to have it reviewed by your attorney. And if you don't know of an attorney, you can ask around on social media and stuff, you can generally get some recommendations. TODD: One thing I do wanna say, though. And this is often somewhat shocking to people who have never ran a business, who worked for other people or other corporations throughout their career. The world for you as a business owner, is very different than the world for you as an employee. If your employer doesn't pay you, you can go to the labor board, and the government will come in and they will sue that company and they'll get that money for you. Because of that, your employer's gonna pay you. KEN: And your wages are legally privileged. So, if they're in bankruptcy, you get your money, not necessarily the very first, but it's a very high priority. It's a very high priority debt. TODD: Correct. If you have a personal contract with ... between two people or between two companies, or between you and a company, there are no such protections whatsoever. You will get paid if the person who's paying you wants to pay you. If they don't pay you, there's no government agency you're going to go to who's gonna help you- KEN: Well, there's the courts. JAMON: The court, basically. TODD: ... other than the courts. And if you're talking about a $10,000 bill that they owe you, you are not going to court for that. You can try to go small claims court, that kind of thing. But the reality is you're not going to go to court for that. And people know this. And there's a lot of people ... And you're like, "Well, you know, I did this contract with Bob, and Bob's wonderful. I mean, I love Bob. He spends his time saving orphan kittens on the weekends." That's great, but Bob's company was just bought by Joe, and Joe is a complete jerk. And Joe now has all your contracts. And Joe used to be a lawyer, bless his heart. And Joe knows that you're not gonna do anything when he doesn't pay your $10,000, so he just refuses to pay you. JAMON: By the way, this is not a hypothetical, this happened to me. TODD: And so, we changed the names, obviously. But Joe does that, and there's really nothing you're gonna do and you're just gonna lose that $10,000. You can try to do collections and irritate them into paying you. But here's the raw fact, if they need you for something they will pay you. Meaning if you still have work to do, they will pay you because they need you. Be very weary of the end of a working engagement when they no longer need you. KEN: This is not to say that everybody is like this. There's plenty of extremely honorable- TODD: Like Bob, Bob's one of them. KEN: ... companies out there. Yes, there's many, many, many great, wonderful, honorable clients who pay what they owe, and they would never screw you. TODD: Correct. KEN: But there's more people out there who, like I said, not necessarily even out of malice, sometimes just out of laziness, kind of don't get around to it. TODD: Another example is if you get a contract where you take liability for stuff that you really have no control over. So, you're like, "Well, Bob's not gonna sue me. Bob's a great guy. He has the same values as I do." But Bob gets successful and Google comes and buys Bob, trust me. Google's lawyers will sue you. If they can, they will. It's not personal, it's just business. JAMON: Beyond accounts receivable, which is obviously a big topic ... And by the way, get as much money upfront as you can. That's a very straightforward way to fix some of this stuff. But beyond that, accountants can also give you a really great insight into the engine of your business. So, they're sort of like your oil pressure. They're your check engine light. And they will give you information that allows you to make decisions, business decisions, going forward. So, an example of this is how much are we gonna pay our employees for bonuses? We need to know what we can afford and what's budgeted for that. Other examples are could we go out and maybe acquire a small business? Or can we invest a bunch of money into R&D? These are all things that we've actually looked at within Infinite Red over the past three years. And we needed to have good information from our bookkeepers and our accountants. And we haven't had always that. That has actually been one of the stumbling blocks that we've run into with Infinite Red, is that we've run into situations where we've been fed what turned out to be inaccurate information. And we've made decisions based on that, and it's caused the engine to run more roughly. KEN: Suffice to say, you really need it to be accurate. So, one of the things that we've done to help make that be the case is that we have our CPA, our tax accountant, and our bookkeepers are totally different, so that we at least have two competent people looking at it periodically. It's not a perfect safeguard by any stretch of the imagination, but it does help a little bit. JAMON: And it's tempting to have one company do both, right? KEN: It is tempting. And I would argue you should not do that. JAMON: Always keep them separate. TODD: Yeah, I would say at the beginning, you do your bookkeeping and then let your CPA do the taxes. And we get to a point where ... For instance, this is the difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant. If you're setting up your books and you're setting up your own chart of accounts, and that kind of stuff, a bookkeeper will just do it. They'll do what you say. Put this in here. Do this, do that. An accountant will say, "Okay. You see how you set up your accounts here? Later, when you get audited ..." And then you're like, "Why would we get audited, what does that even mean?" Well if you need a big loan, the banks are gonna require an audit your finances. Obviously that's the audit on the tax side, but that's your tax accountant. And so, what she'll do is she'll say, "Look, I've been through many audits, this is what they're going to look for. You should set it up this way so that that audit goes smoothly so that loan you need ... Say you get a big new client and you need $250,000 to service that client, and you're gonna make millions? Delaying that loan by a week or two could be disastrous." So, that's the difference between an accountant and a bookkeeper. They know what they know, and they know what's possibly gonna happen. JAMON: Yeah. Banks are a whole other aspect about this that we could talk about. One of the things about banks is that they are generally very slow. You're just one file on their desk. They're not particularly invested in making sure you succeed. And it can really trip you up. Like if you need that loan ... We've been in a situation where we said, "Hey, we wanna borrow some money for a particular thing." And it took ... I think ... I don't remember the timeline, but it was months longer than I expected. Like it was a lot longer. KEN: It took forever. JAMON: Yes. And it felt like most of the issue was on the bank side. Now, being prepared for that, as Todd said, is really important. KEN: In that particular case, there was something that didn't get filed correctly two years ago with the ... I mean, it's ... JAMON: So, another aspect of this, and we can touch a little bit on another property of our business, and that is remote work, is the- TODD: Oh God, banks and remote work. JAMON: Banks, as well as government agencies ... Ken, you've had to set up I don't know how many states now for Infinite Red employees. KEN: Seven, and I need to set up an eighth. JAMON: Yeah. So, this is a whole aspect of kind of the boring ... We're talking about the boring parts of business. But if you're starting a remote work company and you're hiring people from all over, you need to keep this in mind that you're gonna have to set up, what's it called? Nexus? If you have nexus, you have to set up the state ... KEN: Yeah. And having an employee- TODD: What is nexus, by the way? KEN: Nexus just means that you legally exist in a location. And typically the place where you have nexus or not have nexus, as a US company, is in individual states. So, if you have ordered something online and you live in a sales tax state, but they didn't charge you sales tax, the reason they didn't have to do that is because they don't have nexus in your state. So, famously Amazon, for a long time, didn't have nexus in California, or at least they argued that they didn't. And so, Californians didn't have to pay sales tax when they ... I mean, nominally they were supposed to be paying it to the state, but Amazon didn't have to collect it for them. So, that's nexus, and it applies to all kinds of tax, not just sales tax. So, for example, basically everywhere we have an employee, we have to pay taxes. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: This is one of the less glamorous, less wonderful parts about remote work, to be honest. JAMON: There are PEOs or POEs ... KEN: PEOs. JAMON: PEOs, and those will ... They're basically companies that have all this stuff figured out already and you hire your employees through them. KEN: Yes. I believe there's some issues with that. If I were doing this over again, I probably would go with a PEO to avoid a lot of that stuff. JAMON: They're expensive, but they kind of ... They make it ... It's sort of like, in a software engineering world, using Heroku, which kind of spins it all up for you, versus setting up individual Amazon AWS servers. TODD: The other problem with banking, especially with governments in general, is their complete ignorance of the laws about things like signatures. So, I think this is a funny story. So, Ken sent over something that needed to be signed. And I have a bunch of digital signatures of mine that I apply to PDFs. Which is my real signature, and it's perfectly legal, as my wife, who's an accountant, would say. She actually worked for a company that did digital signatures- JAMON: You said your wife's an account? TODD: Yeah, my wife Heather is an accountant. I don't know if I mentioned that. But the signature's legal. So, I legally signed the document Ken sent, and Jamon legally signed it. And they're like, "Well, we can't accept this. We can accept a fax." Okay, so a fax. So, I'm going to go back to 1995 where my fax machine is, and I'm gonna fax it over. "So, okay can't do a fax cause you don't live in that decade. But it can be digital, right? But it can't be digital, it can be a picture of my signature, right?" So, you take the PDF you just signed digitally, you print it out, then you take your camera out and you take a picture of the digital signature you put on the PDF. And then you send them the picture, and then that's fine. It's this kind of ... In some cases we had to have things overnighted between the three of us to sign things. In some cases, we had to go in to the local Chase branch or Bank of America branch or wherever and sign it. And none of this is required by law, at all by the way- JAMON: It's just their corporate policies. TODD: They probably have pneumatic tubes in their offices where they send things to each other. It's crazy. I literally took a picture of ... I made it quite obvious I took a picture of it, too, just to be a jerk. JAMON: So, another aspect of finances is budgeting. So, one of the things I did was I ran a budget with my business, was very happy to hand it off to Ken once we merged. That was one of my favorite parts in the merger. But it was really, really important. So, I did it on just a straight up cash basis. So, money would come in, and I would use a program called youneedabudget.com to enter these transactions, whether they were in-flow or out-flow. And then they have this zero-based budgeting system that lets you allocate money for this and that. It's really good because then you know if you had a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank, and you needed a certain amount of money for payroll, or you needed a certain amount of money to pay your SaaS products, like your GitHub bill, things like that, you know that you had the money or not in the bank. And it gave you really kind of granular data there. It's not quite the same as using QuickBooks. QuickBooks has a useless budgeting feature. I've looked at it. It's just not ... It's sort of like, "Hey, let's plan out the next year." Which you hardly even know what the next month is gonna be like. But having some sort of zero-based budgeting system is quite useful, I think, especially at first. KEN: Can you explain what zero-based means? JAMON: So, essentially, a zero-based budget is where you start with the amount of money that you have, generally, in the bank, and you take that money and you start moving down the line of categories, allocating bits and pieces, subtracting it from that total until you get to zero. So, such and such for payroll, and such and such for your credit card payment, and such and such for your SaaS products. And maybe you need some for team dinners and travel. And you're just moving down. And eventually, the money runs out, right? You hit zero. Or you run out of categories, and you're like, "Okay, I've got money left over and I'm gonna put this into a kind of slush fund or something that just kind of like keeps it for a rainy day." TODD: Isn't slush funds illegal? We should probably just use a different term. JAMON: Okay, maybe I used the wrong word there. Did I use the wrong word? Sorry. A rainy day fund. TODD: Ken would know. JAMON: An emergency fund. And then eventually, you could even bring that money home if you're the owner. But that's what zero-based is. You always get to zero, and you don't go any further than zero because there's no more money. If you don't get to zero, then that means there's money just kind of hanging out not- KEN: Yeah. So, the amount of cash you have determines how far into the future you can budget, basically. JAMON: Exactly. Yes, that's right. So, when you're starting up, it's really important because you don't actually know what kind of expenses are gonna be coming in. You just can't really predict that. So, doing budgeting gives you that insight into where is your money going. You have to allocate for it, and then you enter it into the system. Once you've got a pretty good rhythm going, it's less necessary because you know where the money's going and you can keep an eye on sort of more macro numbers that will give you ideas of health. I would definitely recommend it for probably the first ... I would say, probably the first three years. KEN: And to be clear, it's not a substitute for real books. But I did find it very helpful in just thinking about how money moves around. JAMON: It's also a little bit inadequate in that it is cash basis. And while cash flow is king, and we need to talk about that, Ken, there's also accounts receivable and accounts payable that will affect the money going in and out. TODD: Yeah, there's something called cash basis accounting. KEN: Yeah. Talk about it just a little bit, which is if you're starting up a business you should be cash basis. Like almost full stop, unless you're doing a hardware startup, right? If you're doing something which has a ton of physical inventory, then you might not want to, but frankly if that's true, I mean you need to be talking to a professional, already. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: The other one's called accrual basis. KEN: Accrual, yeah. So, cash basically is very simple. It's like money coming in, money going out. Period. TODD: It's what you would do at home. KEN: Exactly. It's what you would do at home. It's what you probably think accounting is already like. Accrual is like as soon as we have agreed to pay something, then it immediately goes out- JAMON: And as soon as someone agrees to pay us, then it immediately comes in. KEN: Fancy ways of accounting for inventory, and I personally don't actually understand it very well, so that's about all I can say about it. JAMON: It's useful because it gives a more accurate model of where your business actually is, versus cash which can lag or be ahead of itself. But cash is so much simpler that it's definitely worth doing for a while. TODD: Not to turn this podcast into a company meeting, but Heather actually said we probably should consider going to accrual. KEN: Yeah, well we're large enough now that- JAMON: Wait, Todd. How would Heather know to do that? TODD: Oh, Heather, my wife, she's actually an accountant. JAMON: Oh, okay. Okay. That's helpful. KEN: She's been helping us with our books lately. Anyway. So- TODD: Joke never gets old. Never gets old. JAMON: We gotta liven this up somehow. I mean, it's about accounting and lawyers. TODD: And she's gonna listen to this podcast and today's our anniversary, so this is a special "I love you" to my wife. JAMON: Oh, yeah. Well, happy anniversary Todd and Heather, the accountant. TODD: Twelve years. KEN: Of accounting. TODD: Of marriage. KEN: Oh, I see. Okay. I know this has been a very dry podcast, and I apologize but I tell you what. If you guys are thinking about doing this, if maybe you're already doing this and you're feeling the pain already, this stuff is absolutely vitally important- JAMON: It really is. KEN: ... to what you're taking on. JAMON: If you have a solid basis, if you've got some professionals working with you, it gives you so much more confidence and the ability to sleep at night if you know where things stand and what you need to do. KEN: Yeah. TODD: And here's the truth. Many of you are just gonna ignore us. Cause I heard this, too. KEN: Yeah, I know what you mean. JAMON: I did, too. TODD: It's like, "Okay, yeah. Sure. That sounds like the right thing to do. I should do that, but I'm not going to because ... " for whatever reason. And then you learn and suffer like we have, and you eventually do a podcast where you tell others about it, and they ignore you. KEN: You whistle into the wind. TODD: And the perpetual cycle of business stupidity continues. KEN: So, I'm gonna talk about cash flow last. JAMON: Oh yeah, please. TODD: Make it impassioned, Ken. We want some fire here. KEN: So, I remember my very first job that the controller ... So, the controller is sort of the chief internal accountant. Not the CFO, but the kind of hands on- JAMON: Sometimes it's called the comptroller for some reason. KEN: I think that's a British thing. JAMON: That's a British thing? TODD: In government call them comptrollers. KEN: So, they're the ones who would be doing this at a typical company. So, I remember he had a little sign on his desk that said, "Happiness is positive cash flow." And I remember a client saying, "Cash is king." And I remember hearing these things, but I didn't have anywhere to file them. I didn't understand what that meant, right? And I really understand it now. I really understand it now. Where it's basically, cash flow, it's very simple. It's literally the flow of actual money in and out of your business. So, the money you pay out to payroll, the money that your clients actually pay you, not that they have on contract, but they have actually paid you. And what we found is what you think of a business is trying to do is create a profit. And that is true in the long-term. What you want to do is create the largest profit you can. However, to get there you have to keep operating as an entity. And the lifeblood of a company is cash. The lifeblood of that company is that cash, it's the food. So, if you don't get the food in time, it doesn't matter how much you were gonna get. If you run out of money and don't make payroll, something like that, that company will cease. JAMON: I think that's actually a good analogy. If you're playing Minecraft or any other game where you have a health or a hunger bar, and if you're planting fields and fields of wheat and you're waiting for it grow and you wanna go harvest it but you die of hunger before you get there, that's a problem. That's a cash flow problem. It's the ability for you to pay your bills on a day to day basis. So, yes, cash is extremely king. KEN: Well, yeah, imagine your business is collecting Beanie Babies. And you're like, "I'm gonna buy a bunch of Beanie Babies and I'm gonna wait for them to become valuable." That's not a business. Maybe it's an investment, maybe, right? But because you don't have this cycle of things coming in on a routine basis that lets you continue to operate, you just spend a bunch of money and then you wait 20 years. Right? So, it may be profitable in the long run, but it's not really business. JAMON: So, Ken, how does that look in practical terms for Infinite Red? How do you apply that principal of cash is king? KEN: So, yeah, for example, I was very resistant for a long time to take credit cards. This is another thing you learn once you're on the business, you're like, "Holy crap, the credit cards, they take a lot of money out." JAMON: Yeah they do. TODD: Three percent. KEN: Three percent. TODD: Which is a lot on $100,000. KEN: Yeah, exactly. On a $100,000 project, that's actually a lot of money. I think I'm a little more nuanced about it now, because what they do is they make it easier to pay. They make it easier for someone mid-level in a company to pay. They reduce that friction, and it means you get paid sooner. Getting paid a month early is worth actual- TODD: Money. KEN: It's actual money to you. It is worthwhile getting paid early. And so, we're a little bit more lax about how we accept that. TODD: Why is that, Ken? Why is it when you get paid sometimes more important than any profit you made from that money? KEN: Well, for us our biggest expense is payroll. And that happens twice a month no matter what, right? And so, having that money in hand now- TODD: Knock on wood. KEN: That's right. Having that money in hand now makes a real tangible difference. It's not that you don't wanna pay attention to profit at all. It's like there is this ... I remember back in the original dot com boom, there was a Saturday Night Live spoof where they were like, this business was like, "We make change." Right? They're like, "We make all kinds of change. How do we make up for it? Volume." You can, in fact, cash flow yourself into the dirt if you're not paying attention. JAMON: It is interesting to see in situations where we're really monitoring our cash flow very closely, and we do some things that we know maybe they're not going to pay us for a few months and you're maybe struggling through. And then boom, it does come through. And you see that profit actually hit the books, and that is actually a cool feeling, as well. So, you do need to obviously pay attention to your profitability- TODD: Profit matters long-term. Cash flow matters to stay in business. JAMON: That's right. TODD: Cash flow's also power. And this is something that not everyone groks, to be honest. There's a reason that congresspeople like their job. And it's not because they may not personally be getting rich, and the reason they want to get on committees, especially the finance committee and that kind of stuff, is because what really gives you power is not wealth. Cause wealth sitting in a bank account gives no power, cause you're not transferring it. But control of cash flow gives you power. Now, in the case of Congress, congresspeople or senators, most of that's just evil. But in the case of your business, what I call power isn't necessarily a negative thing. Power means you can buy services. Power means you can give that bonus to your employees and that sort of thing. And really how much cash flow you have flowing through is how much you can do, more so than the profit. JAMON: And this is one of the things that if we can point to anything that is sort of a mission for Infinite Red, a lot of it, I think, centers around enabling remote work and the lifestyle that we all want from Infinite Red. And having the ability to pay for that and enable that through our cash flow is what you're talking about, Todd. TODD: Yeah. So, a lot of lawyers and accountants, to be honest, suck. And that's true of all professions, whether it's doctors, programmers, or whatever. So, I know it's not like you can just Google it and find a good one of them a price that you can afford. So, I know we went through a variety of stuff, a variety of people and/or companies, and I was just curious your experience in how you find a good lawyer, a good bookkeeper, a good accountant. That sort of thing. JAMON: I needed an attorney ... I forget when it was. It was during the ClearSight days. And an employee that worked for me at the time, he was my creative director, Mike [Wozezak 00:37:49], really great guy, he knew an attorney that specialized in creative agencies. And I went and met with him, and talked with him, and I really liked him. He was a former CPA, so he knew kind of the nuts and bolts of accounting, which was helpful. And he also specialized in companies like mine. I kind of brought him along to Infinite Red afterward, and we sort of just adopted him as our corporate attorney. And that was really helpful. So, it was a word of mouth thing, for sure. I think one piece of advice that I would give to people is treat it sorta like you would a doctor. It's okay to go someone, have them do something, see if you like the way they operate, and move onto the next one. If you have to do 10 different lawyers before you find one, do it. Don't settle. Do not settle for a bad one. Keep moving until you find a good one, because I can tell you, I think our lawyer is so great that he is absolutely worth every penny that we pay him. And he's helped save us from bad situations, he's helped us get out of some scrapes, and it's totally been worth it. So, definitely treat it more like you would a doctor. TODD: His name is Josh, and he is wonderful. I've had other lawyers at other companies and I wish I had Josh back then. KEN: Do some networking. Talk to other people in similar positions to you. See if they have someone they can recommend. I would also say, for both, having someone who is always willing to take the time to actually explain to you what they're doing in language that you can understand. That is vital. If you feel like you're being snowed, if you feel like you don't understand what's going on, keep looking. JAMON: Yes. And there are professionals that will do that. KEN: They do exist. They're doing a very important service for you, you want someone that you can trust implicitly, they're gonna be interested in earning that trust. JAMON: There are also specialists. So, we had looked into some legal implications surrounding some blockchain work that we were doing. And we talked to Josh, and he said, "I can't provide the insight that you're looking for. This isn't something that I have training on." And so, I did find another attorney. We didn't end up using her, because we went another direction with the service we were looking at. But she was a former FCC attorney who really understood the blockchain legal ramifications. That was helpful. KEN: Once you start getting into specialized stuff it's a little different. But that's where having that primary counsel- JAMON: Exactly. KEN: ... is very helpful, because they can help translate. JAMON: Now one of the things that attorneys do is they ... A good attorney will do, is they will inform you of the risks, but they will also let you make the decision. They won't try to control the process. So, one of the things that Josh will do is say, "There is a risk. I think it's a fairly small one, but here's the risk that I see. And if you feel that it's worth it from a business standpoint, then go ahead and pull the trigger." But he'll let you make the decision, and he'll give you the information to do that. KEN: Yeah. And a not as good lawyer, will be like, "Oh, no, no. Don't do this because there's this horrible risk." Right? Guess what. Every single deal you do has risk. Every single one. And the truth of the matter is, people will sue you, not usually because they have a case, but because they're pissed, right? A lawyer who understands the limits of the legal process is also really important. TODD: I'd like to add that some previous companies that didn't have a Josh or a good lawyer, and a couple things. And it's true of accountants, by the way. Both are true in what I'm gonna say here. So, Ken said the worst ones are ones that think everything you're doing is horrible and you shouldn't do it. I mean, they only care about risk reduction. Of course, you can reduce your risk by simply not being in business. That is horrible, for sure. But there's another one that I think is even worse. One that's doing that on their side, and they won't even tell you to begin with. So, anything that's risky that they don't wanna ... I mean, they basically just cover their ass at all times, they don't tell you anything. They only do what you tell them to do. I'm not sure how you're supposed to know what to tell them to do because you're not a lawyer, you're not an accountant. I deal with that a lot. They're just an assistant, they just do what you tell them. Well, I don't ... If I could do that, I wouldn't need you. And it's actually something that ... With our clients, we're really trying not to do. We don't expect our clients to know anything. That's our job, to guide them through, give them good, coherent options. Tell them the risk and reward of each option, and let them choose. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: That's our job as professionals, and sadly it's kind of rare, unfortunately. JAMON: Yeah. I'm glad we're taking on this topic. Obviously, it is sort of more of a dry topic, but we can only go so far with the series. And this is our last episode of the series. TODD: Of this first season. JAMON: The first season of the series. We are gonna do more seasons. TODD: Unless you're in the UK, and then in which case it is the first series. They call a season a series. JAMON: Oh, funny. TODD: A little factoid. JAMON: Yeah, I'm sure that our UK listeners will appreciate that. TODD: That sounded snarky. We have people in the UK who love us. JAMON: Do we? Awesome? TODD: Why you so mean, Jamon? JAMON: I didn't mean it to sound snarky. TODD: That's why my wife, who's an accountant, doesn't like you. No, she loves you. JAMON: I like Heather. Even if she is an accountant. No, it is good. It's ... This is what ... Well, we took on two topics at once and we were able to kind of lump them in, but it's something that everybody who's starting a business ... And I know, cause we get feedback that there are some people who are listening to our podcast and using some of our advice as a guide as they start their businesses, this is something they need to pay attention to. And when I started my business, it took me many years to get a lawyer and many years to get a good accountant. I did have a bookkeeper, or financial assistant, I guess, for some of those years because once I started payroll, I started getting out of my depth. I had no idea how to do that. And she was great, I could ask her for advice. She was actually trained as an accountant, as a CPA, actually. But she was, at the time, sort of semi-retired and just kind of doing her thing. Now, with Infinite Red, I feel like we have a really great attorney. We have good accountants. We're still working on figuring everything out, but having Heather help us has been really helpful, as well. It's nice to have professionals that know what they're doing. TODD: Thanks so much. Maybe a little dry, but I think super interesting to people out there, especially when you're starting. I've actually found- KEN: Bookmark this, like when you're actually starting this, bookmark and go listen to it again. JAMON: Yeah, it's a good reference. KEN: If your eyes glazed over, I totally understand, but trust me. TODD: I actually found it pretty interesting. I'm surprised how that flew by. And a podcast that flies by when you're recording it, it usually comes out pretty good. So, I would like Jamon in the close to explain what our plans are for this podcast going forward, since this is the last episode of this series/season. JAMON: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm really pleased with how season/series one went. And it was a ton of fun to do with you, Todd, Ken, Chris. We do plan to do more. We probably won't take a really long break. I'm hoping to maybe take a month, or at the most two, and then hit another season. This season we really wanted to kind of get our voice out there as a founder team. So, Todd, Ken and myself, as the founders of Infinite Red, we wanted to talk from our perspective on building Infinite Red. But as Todd mentioned, I think in one of the early episodes, it wasn't just us that built Infinite Red. It was definitely a team effort. It was, in a lot of ways, our vision, but there's so much impact that our team has on what Infinite Red is. So, for season two, the intention is to bring in key team members, and have them sit around the round table, so to speak, with us. They're not gonna be interviewed. We're not gonna be talking at them. They're gonna be just involved in the conversation as we go forward. And we'll be talking about more things that are, I think, a little more specific, a little more even maybe situational, or things like that. I think it'll be interesting, from a standpoint of getting to know some of our team members. They're really great. We- TODD: They are, they're awesome. JAMON: They're so awesome, and I'm really excited to give the world a glimpse into who else is here at Infinite Red. But it will probably be one, maybe two guests on, and just co-hosting with us. They're not going to be an interviewee. I also wanna say thank you to everybody who has listened and promoted our podcast, who submitted questions to us. It's an incredible honor to actually to be in your podcast rotation. We don't take that for granted. I know there are a ton of really good podcasts out there. I had one person, actually, I went to lunch with Bruce Williams, a really great guy here in Portland. And he said, "Jamon, there a lot of good podcasts out there, but I think one of the things about Building Infinite Red is that you are doing an important podcast. The message needs to get out there about our remote work and the way that we do work." Which was a huge compliment. Bruce isn't the type to just hand out compliments lightly. He's a great guy. We take it seriously. This isn't something that we're just doing as a marketing stunt, or anything like that. We really do believe in the message that we're putting out there. So, thank you all for listening. TODD: Yes, thank you.

Dave Matthews Band - "Crash" - Crash [Loop, forwards] Dave Matthews Band - "Crash" - Crash [Loop, backwards] Ken - "Do something that you knew was you" Dave Matthews Band - "Crash" - Crash [Loop, backwards] Lemon Jelly - "Nice Weather for Ducks" - Lost Horizons Moondog - "What's the Most Exciting Thing" - Moondog 2 [Layers] David Lynch - "Some people love to be lost" Donald Swartz - "TWX in 12 Bars (Wall $treet Week theme)" [Layers of teletypes] Donald Swartz - "Opening to Wall $treet Week (with Louis Rukeyser)" [Complete with intro narrator] Liz Phair - "Shatter" - Exile in Guyville [Loops] Logan Lerman - "There is so much pain, I don't know how to stop noticing it" - The Perks of Being a Wallflower One-Minute Vacation - "Ducktown TN - Yard Birds (Ducktown TN 3/31/08)" - One-Minute Vacations Field recording - "Buenos Aires birds" Field recording - "Morning birds" One-Minute Vacation - "Sam the Bird (Cohasset MA 3/24/08)" - One-Minute Vacations Live phone call [and Ken breaths] Ken - "You can ask for anything (Boundaries monologue)" [over Liz Phair live looping. Thank you for taking care of yourself] Liz Phair - "Shatter" - Exile in Guyville [Continued live looping atmosphere] Ken - "You can stay for as long as you want (this is the last chance)" [You don't have to leave the moment. You don't have to leave this dream.] Live phone caller - "Someone said Canada" [(East coast)] Ken - "That's what happens" Live phone caller - "In Canada (it's beautiful here today)" [(West coast) (I love everything about Canada)] Liz Phair - "Shatter" - Exile in Guyville [Loops] Ken - "Identification" Live phone caller - "Rich in Washington (suddenly I'm falling)" [Mouth open wide but no sound. With live stream looping] David Mitchell, Robert Webb - "Potatoes aren't vegetables" - Peep Show, season 7 episode 5: Seasonal Beatings [With live stream looping. "Potatoes aren't veg. (Uh, yes, they are.) Oh. Um, are they? Uh, I mean they kind of are. But not really. (Well, what else are they?) Are you sure potatoes are veg? Aren't they... not earth, but like salt? I mean tomatoes are fruit and potatoes are... bread? No. I mean, they're wheaty. They don't go in the drawer in the fridge, so, yeah? They're not exactly cabbage, are they? I mean, they're brown. They're nice!"] R.E.M. - "Daysleeper" - Up [Loops] Emma Watson, Logan Lerman - "What did you want? You can't put everybody's lives ahead of yours" - The Perks of Being a Wallflower Claire Danes - "Sometimes someone says something really small, and it just fits right into this empty space in your heart" - My So-Called Life Jim Carrey, Kate Winslet - "This is it, it's gonna be gone soon. What do we do? Enjoy it." - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind Jon Brion - "Theme" - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind [Loops] Emma Watson, Logan Lerman - "Why do I and everyone I love pick people who treat us like we're nothing? We accept the love we think we deserve" - The Perks of Being a Wallflower [Loop] Def Leppard - "Promises" - Euphoria [Loops] Stevie Wonder - "He's Misstra Know-It-All" - Innervisions [Loops] Kathryn Beaumont - "If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, and everything would be what it isn't" - Alice in Wonderland Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley - "Ignorance is the necessary condition of human happiness" - Surviving Desire Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley - "My biggest fear is this" - Surviving Desire Martin Donovan, Adrienne Shelly, Hal Hartley - "Television makes these daily sacrifices possible, it deadens the inner core of my being" - Trust Hal Hartley - "No matter what I achieve, I always have this irritating sensation of emptiness and futility" - Ambition [I want the image I have of myself and myself to become one] Hal Hartley - "When two images or sounds are juxtaposed in a relationship that is not concrete..." - Ambition Katherine Hepburn - "All my life I've stayed at parties too long, because I didn't know when to go" - Summertime David Huddleston - "Are you surprised at my tears, sir? Strong men also cry. Strong men also cry." - The Big Lebowski La Dusseldorf - "Rheinita" - Viva [Loops] Kraftwerk - "Radioaktivitat" - Radio-Aktivitat [Loops] Vangelis - "Chariots of Fire theme" - Chariots of Fire [Loops] The Lovin' Spoonful - "Me About You" - Revelation: Revolution '69 Lemon Jelly - "Nice Weather for Ducks" - Lost Horizons The Brothers Johnson - "Strawberry Letter #23" - Right on Time [Loops] Magnapop - "Snake" - Magnapop or Rubbing Doesn't Help [Loops, taking over atmosphere] Ken - "All we have are memories (I don't know what I want)" [Everyone tries in the ways they know how. Something is always going to hurt. Something is always going to go well.] Live phone caller - "Broken, drowning (you can't know nothing)" Magnapop - "Snake" - Magnapop [Loops] The War On Drugs - "In Chains" - A Deeper Understanding [Loops] Ken - "Forever making the same mistakes, reinventing the wheel" [Mostly over War On Drugs In Chains loops, and a little over Magnapop Snake loops] The War On Drugs - "In Chains" - A Deeper Understanding [Loops] Ken - "Identification" The War On Drugs - "In Chains" - A Deeper Understanding [Loops on out] http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/78602

Dave Matthews Band - "Crash" - Crash [Loop, forwards] Dave Matthews Band - "Crash" - Crash [Loop, backwards] Ken - "Do something that you knew was you" Dave Matthews Band - "Crash" - Crash [Loop, backwards] Lemon Jelly - "Nice Weather for Ducks" - Lost Horizons Moondog - "What's the Most Exciting Thing" - Moondog 2 [Layers] David Lynch - "Some people love to be lost" Donald Swartz - "TWX in 12 Bars (Wall $treet Week theme)" [Layers of teletypes] Donald Swartz - "Opening to Wall $treet Week (with Louis Rukeyser)" [Complete with intro narrator] Liz Phair - "Shatter" - Exile in Guyville [Loops] Logan Lerman - "There is so much pain, I don't know how to stop noticing it" - The Perks of Being a Wallflower One-Minute Vacation - "Ducktown TN - Yard Birds (Ducktown TN 3/31/08)" - One-Minute Vacations Field recording - "Buenos Aires birds" Field recording - "Morning birds" One-Minute Vacation - "Sam the Bird (Cohasset MA 3/24/08)" - One-Minute Vacations Live phone call [and Ken breaths] Ken - "You can ask for anything (Boundaries monologue)" [over Liz Phair live looping. Thank you for taking care of yourself] Liz Phair - "Shatter" - Exile in Guyville [Continued live looping atmosphere] Ken - "You can stay for as long as you want (this is the last chance)" [You don't have to leave the moment. You don't have to leave this dream.] Live phone caller - "Someone said Canada" [(East coast)] Ken - "That's what happens" Live phone caller - "In Canada (it's beautiful here today)" [(West coast) (I love everything about Canada)] Liz Phair - "Shatter" - Exile in Guyville [Loops] Ken - "Identification" Live phone caller - "Rich in Washington (suddenly I'm falling)" [Mouth open wide but no sound. With live stream looping] David Mitchell, Robert Webb - "Potatoes aren't vegetables" - Peep Show, season 7 episode 5: Seasonal Beatings [With live stream looping. "Potatoes aren't veg. (Uh, yes, they are.) Oh. Um, are they? Uh, I mean they kind of are. But not really. (Well, what else are they?) Are you sure potatoes are veg? Aren't they... not earth, but like salt? I mean tomatoes are fruit and potatoes are... bread? No. I mean, they're wheaty. They don't go in the drawer in the fridge, so, yeah? They're not exactly cabbage, are they? I mean, they're brown. They're nice!"] R.E.M. - "Daysleeper" - Up [Loops] Emma Watson, Logan Lerman - "What did you want? You can't put everybody's lives ahead of yours" - The Perks of Being a Wallflower Claire Danes - "Sometimes someone says something really small, and it just fits right into this empty space in your heart" - My So-Called Life Jim Carrey, Kate Winslet - "This is it, it's gonna be gone soon. What do we do? Enjoy it." - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind Jon Brion - "Theme" - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind [Loops] Emma Watson, Logan Lerman - "Why do I and everyone I love pick people who treat us like we're nothing? We accept the love we think we deserve" - The Perks of Being a Wallflower [Loop] Def Leppard - "Promises" - Euphoria [Loops] Stevie Wonder - "He's Misstra Know-It-All" - Innervisions [Loops] Kathryn Beaumont - "If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, and everything would be what it isn't" - Alice in Wonderland Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley - "Ignorance is the necessary condition of human happiness" - Surviving Desire Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley - "My biggest fear is this" - Surviving Desire Martin Donovan, Adrienne Shelly, Hal Hartley - "Television makes these daily sacrifices possible, it deadens the inner core of my being" - Trust Hal Hartley - "No matter what I achieve, I always have this irritating sensation of emptiness and futility" - Ambition [I want the image I have of myself and myself to become one] Hal Hartley - "When two images or sounds are juxtaposed in a relationship that is not concrete..." - Ambition Katherine Hepburn - "All my life I've stayed at parties too long, because I didn't know when to go" - Summertime David Huddleston - "Are you surprised at my tears, sir? Strong men also cry. Strong men also cry." - The Big Lebowski La Dusseldorf - "Rheinita" - Viva [Loops] Kraftwerk - "Radioaktivitat" - Radio-Aktivitat [Loops] Vangelis - "Chariots of Fire theme" - Chariots of Fire [Loops] The Lovin' Spoonful - "Me About You" - Revelation: Revolution '69 Lemon Jelly - "Nice Weather for Ducks" - Lost Horizons The Brothers Johnson - "Strawberry Letter #23" - Right on Time [Loops] Magnapop - "Snake" - Magnapop or Rubbing Doesn't Help [Loops, taking over atmosphere] Ken - "All we have are memories (I don't know what I want)" [Everyone tries in the ways they know how. Something is always going to hurt. Something is always going to go well.] Live phone caller - "Broken, drowning (you can't know nothing)" Magnapop - "Snake" - Magnapop [Loops] The War On Drugs - "In Chains" - A Deeper Understanding [Loops] Ken - "Forever making the same mistakes, reinventing the wheel" [Mostly over War On Drugs In Chains loops, and a little over Magnapop Snake loops] The War On Drugs - "In Chains" - A Deeper Understanding [Loops] Ken - "Identification" The War On Drugs - "In Chains" - A Deeper Understanding [Loops on out] https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/78602

The theme of this episode is centered around the lessons learned in charging for software development. Starting with a question from the Infinite Red Community, Todd, Ken, and Jamon touch on hourly vs. project pricing, the tension between time and value, how software estimating is a lot like weather forecasting, and the many experiments conducted over the years to find the right pricing model for Infinite Red. Episode Transcript JAMON HOLMGREN: We received a question from the community, community.infinite.red, it's a Slack community that we have. Trent asks, "Hey Jamon, I'm enjoying the podcast. Will you guys be covering hourly pricing versus project pricing? It's a question we're dealing with right now. Which do you guys prefer, and what are some lessons learned to bring you to that choice?" I think this is a really great question. Todd, do you wanna talk about what we're doing right now? And then we can go into maybe what we've done in the past, and what brought us to that choice? TODD WERTH: Sounds good. Yeah that's a great question, and it's actually a really tough one to deal with. So, what we do now, is we do weekly pricing. We charge per person-week, and we call it "person-week" as opposed to "a week of work" because it could actually be two people working maybe half a week each and that would be one "person-week." Because we're doing person-weeks, we have a point system. So, 100 points equals a person-week. We don't track time. We used to, and we can talk about that—we used to bill hourly. We don't track time, we don't actually know how long things take, it's just, we estimate our tasks in points, and if we've reached a hundred or more per person-week and we charge per person-week, then we're accomplishing our goal. JAMON: There's a bit of a tension between time and value, and this has been something that we've dealt with, I mean, I've dealt with, since I started my first consultancy. Of course, value-based pricing is kind of a holy grail of pricing for consultancies, and we've heard this for a long time, that you should charge for the value, not just the time that it takes. So an example, this would be fixed-bid pricing, where you're essentially betting on delivering the software in a reasonable amount of time, but you're getting paid on the value to the client. The problem is that our costs are not based on value. So, we're not necessarily paying our people based on the fixed-bid, a percentage of the fixed-bid, or something like that. There are industries that do that, but ours is not one of them. So we're paying people salaries, and our costs are over time, and so if something takes a very long time, then our profitability and the ability of the company to remain financially solvent is threatened. Conversely, you have, of course, hourly. We've done that in the past, and the nice thing about hourly is that it corresponds, obviously, very tightly with the amount of time that it takes to do. But the problem is that every hour is not equal. You have hours that are maybe really valuable, you've automated something and in a lot of cases you're actually delivering more value than the client is paying for, quite a bit more. And then there are others where the person's getting spun up, or they're hung up on a particular problem, whether it's their fault or not, and that turns into a bit of an issue, because then you're billing hundreds of dollars an hour for something where the client isn't really getting a lot of value. So I think that's why we ended up where we are, in a way. TODD: Yeah, both have issues. When you're doing hourly, it might seem to a client that's more fair, but it's not. It means every time there's a bug, or any time there's an issue, we basically are nickel-and-dimeing them, and they don't necessarily like that. We have to spin up someone, like Jamon said, where in our value system that we use now, they don't see any of that. We fix the bugs because it's part of the value of that particular feature. It does mean, though, sometimes, that we can produce a feature faster than the hourly would've been, and so they get charged, I guess, more for that. KEN MILLER: There's a couple of different ways that hourly works out sometimes, though. There's certainly the very literal, like, you sit there and you run a clock, like the way a lawyer would, you actually have a little timer that shows exactly what you're doing. When I worked for a large sort of corporate consulting company, Big Five-style, back in the '90s, I remember my first week I was filling out my time card, and I filled in the insane hours that I worked, because that's the kind of work that you do. And my project manager comes over to me and he's like, "No no no no no no no no, this is not what you do." And he took my time card and he filled in "eight, eight, eight, eight, eight." (laughter) TODD: That's ridiculous. But... KEN: Right. So that's how the Big Five work, often. TODD: So it's completely fake in that situation. KEN: It's completely fake. It's basically pretty close to what we do now, which is that weekly billing. Where an hour is just a way of measuring a week. To answer the question directly, you know, do we prefer hourly or project-based, we prefer hourly. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Hourly leads to less problems in the long term because the trouble with fixed bid, although it seems like it's appealing—It's appealing from your point of view, if you think you can be really efficient, and it's appealing from their point of view if they think you can't. But that's exactly it right there, it creates this adversarial relationship. Todd? TODD: Yeah, clients all– not all, but many clients think they would love a fixed bid. And in truth, they will hate a fixed bid. Ken's right. Fixed bids create an adversarial situation. Even if both sides are extremely... They're at the table in good faith, and they're trying to do the right thing and do their part and stuff, it still means that the client is trying to get as many hours as possible out of you for the same price, and us would be trying to do as few hours as possible. Like I said, even if you're both being very nice and very ethical in the way you're billing, that always creeps in. It also means that you have to lawyer every change. You'll have companies that have change order systems that are pretty complex. Clients hate that. When I talked to especially start-ups, one of the things I say is if the project we're working on at the end ends up exactly as you envisioned at the beginning, that's a huge red flag. That means you didn't listen to your beta testers, that means you didn't think at all during the process even after you got in your hands what could be better, it means a bunch of different things. So, we have a pretty strong process, but it's designed to be flexible. We wanted it to be flexible. So when we get to the point when we do estimation after a research phase, it's fairly accurate. The likelihood that it will actually produce your project for this estimate is extremely low. Not because we're incompetent– I'm sometimes incompetent– not because we're incompetent, but because you're gonna make a bunch of changes, and we welcome that. We don't lawyer that. But that's a little bit difficult, there's a little bit of education involved in getting people to understand that fully. JAMON: One of the objections is that, well, there are other companies that do fixed-bid, and they seem to do just fine. They're able to sustain that and their customers are generally happy, and things like that. But I think there's a hidden cost in there that people don't take into account. Which we've sort of driven a stake into the ground, we've said, "Hey, we're not willing to go down this route." And that is that those companies put the burden of hitting those estimates onto their employees. They essentially say, "Okay, well, we estimated this amount, you're not done yet, so you're gonna stay late until it's done." And they push, and push, and push, and they really, really just drive the screws in on their employees. Maybe not overtly, maybe not directly, but there's a culture and an expectation of being able to hit those estimates that puts a lot of stress on the employees. KEN: Yeah, that doesn't necessarily look like a slave driver. It can look like a "Rah-rah, sleep when you're dead," "work hard, play hard." "Rah!" But like, that kind of corporate culture. There are firms out there that I respect that do fixed-bids, and they seem to make it work, and that's fine. But in our experience, someone is paying for that somewhere. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: There's another type of fixed-bid which isn't just slave-driving your employees into the dirt. It is, you think it's gonna cost $100,000 on this project, you bid $800,000. So no matter what, unless you're ridiculously off, you're fine. The problem comes in when clients want both the lowest possible price and a fixed-bid. That just... It's not really possible. JAMON: So, our system is different. And Todd, I'd like you to talk a little bit about why our... Because, we are giving an estimate with points, and we're trying to hit those points, so it may feel like a fixed-bid, but do you want to explain what we're doing differently, where it really does change over time as you do a project? TODD: Yeah, so we do spend a decent amount of time doing research, architecture, that kind of stuff, before we estimate the points. So we're not just doing a ballpark estimate. We do a ballpark estimate at the beginning, but that's a few hours of our time. But we spend a few weeks or whatever doing research, architecture, that kind of stuff. And at the end of that, we produce an estimate in points. So those are fairly accurate. Obviously, anyone out there who does software development... By the way, everything we're talking about here is for development. On the design side, we do fixed-bids, and that's a different discussion. The gentleman who asked us the question was more towards the development side, so that's what we're talking about. JAMON: Right. TODD: So, our estimates are based on a whole lot more information than a lot of people do. And we do have clients who want an accurate estimate earlier, and we just have to push back, because in that situation we have only two options: We either push back against them and try to educate them in the process and help them do a successful project, or we lie to them. (laughter) And unfortunately a lot of companies just lie. They just come up with a number, they act like they put some thought into it– they didn't. I worked for a consulting company in the late '90s where the way we estimated was we asked the sales person how much they could afford. That was our miracle estimate. Which to me, I hated as an engineer. I just loathed it. I'm digressing a little bit here, but I don't want to make it out that our estimates are super accurate or that estimating software at all is an accurate thing at all. We know it's not. KEN: One of our sort of colleague companies out there calls them "forecasts," which I really like. People understand, like, a weather forecast is not necessarily going to be accurate. It's like, "Based on what we can see right now, this is what we think is gonna happen." And everyone understands that. So I really like that as a bit of language. TODD: Yeah, we should call it "forecasts." KEN: I'm tempted to steal that, but... (laughter) TODD: The other cool thing about a forecast is it's known: the further out you are from the date, the less accurate the forecast is, and the closer you get, the more accurate, and that's very true in our situation as well. JAMON: That's a great point, Todd, because we will definitely adjust those estimates as we get into things, and as we learn more. And I try to, I do a lot of the sales calls now, and one of the things I try to do is set the expectation that over time, the estimates will get more and more accurate, as we know more. The same thing with the weather forecast. You look at the ten-day, and you look at day number ten, and as you get closer and closer, you're gonna see a better and better forecast. And it's not uncommon for that to change even quite drastically, because weather systems can get delayed a little bit or something, and that can impact which day they land. KEN: Unless you live in California, in which case our weather never changes. JAMON: Yeah. No, I live in the Pacific Northwest near the Columbia River Gorge, and nobody understands the weather here. TODD: Our weather's hot and sunny. Tomorrow? Hot and sunny. The next day? Hot and sunny. JAMON: What if it's- KEN: And then a terrifying thunderstorm. And then hot and sunny. TODD: Once a year, we have terrifying water from the sky. I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, which is in this very small patch– I'm totally digressing here– but it's a very small patch in the US with the most sunshine out of the whole US, and it's just basically Las Vegas and around the desert area here. I think it's something ridiculous like 300 and some days of pure sunshine. Which is nice, as I lived in San Francisco for 20 years, and it is the opposite of that. And I enjoyed that for a long time, but I enjoy this. Anyways. So one of the things I wanted to bring up is, and we should talk about estimates. Because estimates are a big part of how you charge. And it is a difficult problem, and we have all sorts of issues that, I think, would be very interesting for listeners to hear that they're not alone in, and that we're still struggling with. KEN: Nobody has a magic bullet. Nobody has a magic bullet on that. TODD: It's a soft problem, it's definitely a people problem, and it's something that I'm actually actively working on all the time. But to finish up what we were saying before, we do find that weekly billing has worked out very well. It does require education. Your clients may instinctively go, "Okay, well they're just doing this to make more money because they're gonna get it done way faster, and they're actually gonna charge me this extra money, and they're not gonna do anything." And that's a perfectly normal human reaction. But one of the ways that we added some sugar to that tea is we say, "A bug comes up, sometimes bugs take five minutes, sometimes bugs take a half a week to fix. That's all included in that estimate. You don't have to worry about that. No nickel-and-dimeing." When the estimate goes up, say we add person-weeks to the overall estimate, and then maybe we add some calendar-weeks... By the way, we have typically a minimum team of two, and most times people work on one project full-time, so if you have a two person team on a project, we're producing two person-weeks per week. From that, and the number of points we estimate, we can calculate the calendar time, as opposed to the person-week time. And the calendar time does get extended, and the person-weeks do get extended. But it's always– not always, but it's usually from changes, and we try to be very good about being very transparent in explaining, and the client should know what all those changes were. They hopefully have approved them, and that's what adds the person-weeks and that sort of thing. JAMON: There are some times where we will feel like maybe we made a mistake, in such a way that it was maybe, we're not comfortable charging the client more for a particular thing. And in that case we will adjust what we're billing for a particular chunk of a project. And we'll take on that risk. There's a shared expectation of being reasonable in this. If a client's asking for something, then we're gonna bill more. If we make a mistake, then we'll try to rectify that as much as possible. But it does have flexibility built in, and that's important. But then also, like you said, Todd, the bug-fixing is built in and things like that. That really helps mitigate the amount of risk that the client is taking on. TODD: And truthfully, it's much easier for people doing the actual work, because they don't have to constantly, "Oh, this three-hour task is now a five-hour task, I have to ask permission for those extra two-hours, and it's just a lot of paperwork and a lot of thought about stuff that has nothing to do with making a great project." But yeah, and I also want to add on to what Jamon just said, the way we deal with issues... Let's say the value wasn't there, we had some problems, we typically deal with it on the invoicing side. We tell our people, "Okay, for whatever reason we're not gonna be charging for these person-weeks." But from their perspective, it doesn't matter. They're estimating points, they're working during the week, they're getting at least a hundred points per person-week, and they just keep on going forward. We'll adjust it on the back side, on the invoicing side so that our process keeps going and we have accurate data, even if we're in a situation where we made a big mistake or something like that, and we're not charging them for, say, a few weeks or whatever. JAMON: Yeah, totally. And Ken, would you wanna talk about the chronic problem of under-estimating? 'Cause I know this is something that's near and dear to your heart. KEN: Yeah, I don't know why engineers... I don't know if they want to feel like they, you know, they're really fast, or they feel guilty, or if it's imposter syndrome, or whatever it is, but it is a chronic problem. Engineers will estimate too optimistically. So we have sort of structures and practices, and this is not an easy problem to solve, right? But we have sort of structures and practices in place to sort of counter-act that, hopefully, whether it's sort of checklists like, "Have you considered these sort of failure cases? Have you included the bug-fixing and the testing time? Is the testing time including every platform that you could possibly use this on?" Et cetera, et cetera. Todd? TODD: Yeah, this is a problem we have not solved. We really try to hire, and I think we have hired, really decent, ethical people. Which is fantastic, and that's the intention, and I very much enjoy working with almost everyone here (maybe not Ken, but that's okay). (laughter) KEN: You can't fire me. (laughter) TODD: I cannot. I've tried many times. KEN: It's a perk of the job. TODD: Actually, it's funny, because I've been working on this a lot lately. We hire good, ethical people, which I very much enjoy. But they tend to feel more guilt, and they tend to be a little... They contemplate it and worry about it a little too much, to be honest. And so we do have chronic under-billing. One of the things we do is, we ask them for estimates, and we never ever– up to this point I've ever said, "This estimate's too high. You need to reduce this estimate." Because this is the estimate they're giving us, and they're gonna do the work, and it's not fair for us to come and say, you know, "You said it's gonna take a hundred points, I think it'd take 50 points." And of course when they do it and it takes a hundred points, they've failed, but only because in my opinion it should've been 50. We never do that. We never push back on that. So you would think that just human nature, in order to alleviate stress, they would say, "Okay, that's gonna take 50 points, but I'm gonna make it a hundred and 50 points just to give me an allowance." No one does that, surprisingly. That is not the problem we deal with. It could be just our team. Probably not just our team, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who do that. KEN: I mean, I've seen this everywhere I've ever worked, right? People wanna feel like a hero, people don't... It's not as much fun to think about all the ways that things go wrong, well, depending on your personality I guess. But yeah, the ideal way that we're always striving toward is basically, the engineer gives us as accurate and conservative of an estimate as possible. And then in terms of how we present it to the client, if we feel we need to make an economic adjustment in order to get a sale, for example, then we will do that on our end. We don't want it baked into the estimate. JAMON: And Todd actually ran an experiment with our own engineers at one point. He took a screen, I think it was a login screen of a project we'd actually already done- TODD: Yes. JAMON: -and sent it to several engineers and asked what their estimate was. Do you wanna talk about that, Todd? TODD: Yeah, I've done a few of these to try to kind of understand this problem. In that case, it wasn't clear what kind of project it was, whether it was a mobile app, an iPad app, a website. I did that on purpose. I also didn't give them any requirements other than I gave them a screenshot. Which is not untypical to get from a client if we didn't do the design, to just get the screenshots. So I wanted to see A) how they approached the estimation process, and B) what their estimates were. I'll skip to the spoiler part. The lowest one was like three hours? This is back when we did hours, we weren't doing points. The highest one was like 46 hours. So the range is three hours to 46 hours. Some people, their estimate wasn't accurate for obvious reasons, they got back to me within five minutes and didn't ask any questions. And that was more on the junior side, and that's perfectly fine. Estimating is probably one of the most difficult things that we do, and so it's understandable when people with less experience do it less well. But the interesting part is that a lot of people didn't even ask what platform it was on. The person who did 46 hours, the highest one, had a huge write-up of all the reasons why it was 46. And when you look at it, you're like, "Yeah." Because it seemed very simple. Like, it's a login screen. It's two text inputs and a button that says "Login." But there's actually a huge amount of stuff. A lot of people assumed they were just doing the screen as opposed to actually making it work, like, making you log in to the backend, and Facebook integration and all this stuff. But the fascinating part is how different it was and their different approaches. KEN: It should be mentioned, though, just for the record, that the way this exercise was set up was intentionally, on Todd's part, very vague. Right? It wasn't like, "Hey, I need you to do this for a client so that we can get a good estimate." It was a very off-hand... But the range of responses to that very vague setup was illuminating. Because some people are constitutionally incapable of not treating that seriously. (laughter) And some people are like, "Whatever Todd, I've got work to do." Right? So there's gonna be a very broad range there, and the range of real estimates is probably not gonna be quite as wide. But still. TODD: Ken has a particular personality, and so does a few other people on our team, where he really didn't like the "gotcha" part of that question, the vagueness of it. And he felt like I was looking for a real answer and he was set up to fail on the real answer because I didn't give him any information. That wasn't the point of it. I actually didn't care what their answer was as much as the process by which they went around the answer. And I didn't say that, on purpose, too. And so he was a little bit like, "You're setting me up to fail, I don't like this, go to hell." Which was kind of funny. But it's funny from my perspective, but it's also illuminating. For people with that type of personality, that's the reaction they have to that, and that's a very real thing. KEN: Well, it's also, like, if you just ask me a very vague off-hand question, I'm gonna devote a vague off-hand amount of attention to it. Right? And I think a lot of other people are gonna be that way too. It's kind of like, "Oh, okay, without any further information, why am I gonna spend an hour breaking down this problem for you?" Or however long it takes. JAMON: I will point out that mine was both quick and accurate. TODD: Yeah, I hate giving Jamon a compliment, but I thought Jamon's was one of the more accurate, and he did it very fast, and it was very thorough. KEN: We brought Jamon on because he's lucky. TODD: That's right. I have a rule: Every quarter, I randomly fire one of our team. And the reason I do this is very simple. I don't want anyone unlucky working at our company. That's a joke, in case anyone thought it wasn't. We don't horribly fire people because they're unlucky. But yeah, so that's a very interesting thing on that. There's other interesting things too. Another experiment I did was, I had people estimate something simple again. Then they gave me the estimate, whatever it was– the numbers don't matter, but let's say they said 10 hours, and this is once again, back when we did hours. If they said 10 hours, then I would say, "Okay, what's the likelihood– are you 100 percent confident that you can do it in 10 hours or under? Are you 90 percent confident? 80 percent confident?" And then I would ask them, "Okay, how about eleven hours? How about twelve hours, how about thirteen hours?" And what I found is that the first estimate they gave me, almost no one was confident they could do it in that time. Which was fascinating- JAMON: Yeah, it'd be something like 60 percent or something, and then you'd have to go quite a ways up before they were 90, 95 percent confident. TODD: Correct. So I'm not sure exactly what to make of that, except for, that's a phenomenon. JAMON: I did ask some of our employees that were doing an estimate to include a confidence factor. And that estimation is not done yet. It should be in the next week or two, and it'll be interesting to go through that and see where they landed. KEN: Yeah, that would be interesting. JAMON: There are some other reasons why you might not be confident. Maybe there are a bunch of unknowns that we will have to dig into before we'll know for sure, and there's no amount of hours that would satisfy that necessarily. But I think that that's something... You should give a number... Again, we're not doing hours, but doing the point system you should have your estimate units, of course, for each task, but then also include a confidence factor. And that might be a percentage or something that you're confident. I think that's an aspect that maybe will be helpful going forward. TODD: To be clear, that's a hypothesis. Jamon has at this point, we haven't tested that. So take that as an idea. JAMON: That's exactly right, yeah. TODD: Another thing I asked them was, it's very fascinating, the same kind of line of questioning on giving them a very simple thing to estimate. And then I asked them, "Does that include tests? Does that include QA? Does that include bug fixes? Does that include any production issues when it goes out to the real world?" All over the map, whether or not they included, very few people said it included all of that. So when you asked them, "How long will this take?" They didn't take that question as, "How much time will you spend to have this completely done and you never touch it again?" Very few people took it that way. They more took it as, "I could get it done and in the app and then later we would debug it or test it or make changes or whatever, but that's not included in my estimate." So that was a fascinating result, also. Now, I don't have any recommendations for any of this, other than it's very interesting to see how people's minds work, and how different people's minds work differently when they're given a task to estimate how long something will take. JAMON: There's a couple of ways that we can mitigate that. Ken mentioned earlier, checklists. I think those are probably under-utilized. That's something that we should use more. So when you're looking at a screen, you'd have a checklist of things. And maybe some of them don't apply and you just mark them off. But some of them are definitely... KEN: Yeah, there's something else that we're trying, which I've never really heard of anyone else doing, I've never encountered it before. We're trying to keep a database of past features so that instead of sitting and de novo every time, sort of like thinking through step-by-step every feature, you say, "Does this feature feel more like this one or that one?" Right? And then you just take the number that we actually empirically determined previously. JAMON: So it gives you kind of an anchor point, and then you can determine if it's maybe more or less than that. KEN: The jury's out on whether this could work as a system or not, but. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: What does "de novo" mean, Ken? KEN: From the beginning, from new. TODD: So, you replaced "from new," which is two syllables, with a three syllable word, "de novo." Okay, just making sure I understand. (laughter) KEN: It has further implications, but whatever, Todd. Feel free to make fun of my vocabulary as much as you like. TODD: I would make fun of your vocabulary, but the word "vocabulary" isn't in my vocabulary, so... KEN: Obviously. TODD: It's a vicious circle. JAMON: So I think it's good maybe for us to go back a couple years, maybe. When we merged, we had... We try to be a little bit unconventional in our thinking. We try not to bring a lot of preconceived notions into what we're doing here, and think things through de novo, you know, start from the beginning, start from– you like how I did that?– start from first principles and kind of look at it in a way that... "Okay, can we innovate on this? Can we look at it and come up with something new?" And we did, actually. And I don't actually remember whose idea this was, maybe one of you does, but we had the idea, "We're gonna bill hourly," was what our initial thought was. "We're gonna bill hourly, and then let's have a base salary for all of our developers and designers, but then pay them per hour billed that they personally billed." And it was an interesting experiment. I think we ran it for probably a year, maybe it was two years? Something like that, with varying success. And we learned a ton of things that you wouldn't when you just start out as salary employees. I will point out that we are now on salary. But we should talk a little bit about that experiment and what we learned there. TODD: Yeah, that was... We had specific goals, and we had tons of good intentions for those goals. And like all good intentions, we fell on our face. But that would be a very interesting podcast in itself, the lessons... What we did, what we went through, what we changed to, and the lessons we learned during the process. JAMON: I think to just kind of give it a really quick little thing, since we've teased it here, one of the things that we found is that people are generally not that motivated by money. Because they can certainly bill more hours and make more money, that was one of the benefits of the system, if you were very productive– KEN: A couple people did. JAMON: Yeah, some people did. KEN: Some people took advantage of that. JAMON: Yeah, for sure, but it was not anywhere near even a quarter of those people. So that was good to know. Other people, they were just motivated by different things. They were motivated, it's not that they're not motivated, but it just wasn't purely by money. Another thing was that there were some situations that ended up not really being very fair. So, some people would be in projects where bill hours were very easy to come by. And others where we really either had to supplement their bill hours or something along those lines. It also didn't really encourage collaboration between people, so there's some silos. The benefit to the company, obviously, is that if we're having sort of a down month because, you know, it's cyclical, then your costs go down. And the benefit to the employee is if you're having a really busy month, then you're getting paid more. But ultimately, that whole system, we went away from, and went to the system that we're using today. TODD: Yeah, I can, in my opinion, it was a complete failure. That being said, it was, I'm pretty sure, originally my idea. And like I said, great intentions, but I think that was one of our biggest failures, to be honest. JAMON: We learned a lot. I think that was the big thing. And those lessons will stick with us. TODD: We learned a lot, and we changed, and, you know... But I think it was more painful than it should've been. KEN: I forget where I sort of read/heard this advice, but basically, when you're starting a new company, you're trying to do something innovative, you should limit what you try to do that's innovative. Focus your innovation where it really counts, and then don't try to innovate too much in the rest of your business practices. I think that that's part of what we learned there. Even setting aside all these sort of incentive things, there's a bunch of things that just work better when people are on salary. Right? Their benefits work better, insurance works better– TODD: Vacation time. KEN: -vacation time works better, there's a bunch of things where there's a whole ecosystem of support for how to run a business. And if you try to innovate in how you do that, you cut yourself out of all those things, and make yourself less competitive on the labor market. You make yourself... You know, you spend more time on things you shouldn't be spending time on. And so, you know, I think we've become in some ways a more conventional company in certain aspects, so that we can stretch out into places that we still want to stretch out. TODD: It's so interesting you said that, Ken, because I literally give people that advice when they're starting out producing an app or a website or whatever it is. For the things that don't matter to your particular customers, or don't matter to your particular business, stick with tried and true. That's well-known, you don't have to worry about that stuff. Put all your innovation and your avant-garde ideas into the things that really differentiate your company from other companies. So it's so funny that you said that in respect to our company, because although we didn't apply it ourselves, it's advice we give. KEN: Well, I had heard that advice before we did all of this. And the truth is, when you're there, you don't always know which one is the most important, right? So that's gonna happen. But it's worth bearing that in mind, to always be asking yourself the question, like, "What really makes us different as a company?" And if it's not this thing that we're doing and spending a lot of time on, maybe rethink that. TODD: I'll personally admit to hubris. KEN: What?! Never. TODD: "We can do anything, and we'll just apply our big brains to it, and we'll figure it out." KEN: Big brains are not the commodity that's in short supply. It's time, right? It's time and attention. JAMON: I think I'll actually disagree a little bit, here. We've actually gotten the feedback that we all agree a little too much here. So I'll play the part of the devil's advocate here. I think it was well worth trying, and I think it was actually based on some things that we... I think in certain cases, actually, it could work, I think it could be actually be something that a particular company could actually make work. It's just that we didn't like some of the side effects of it. Sort of like, taking a certain experimental medication. Maybe it works, but the side effects are not worth it. And I think that that's actually where we ended up with that. I wouldn't, like Todd said, I wouldn't necessarily classify it all as a complete failure. I think there were parts of it that were a failure. And I'm happy with the system we have now, but I'm also very much happy that we tried that. TODD: It was 90 percent a failure. KEN: It got us to the point we are now. TODD: Well, sure. JAMON: What's your confidence level on that, Todd? TODD: I am 90 percent confident that it was a 90 percent failure. CHRIS: Do you guys wanna touch on psychology and perception in the role of pricing? KEN: Oh, man. **CHRIS: That's something I was kind of thinking about as you were talking.## JAMON: Yeah, actually, I do have some thoughts on that. So, one of the questions that comes up is, "When you are selling fixed-bid or hourly, what do clients think? Is it hard to do?" And I've found that neither fixed-bid nor hourly are particularly hard to sell. Both are well-understood. Our current system takes a little more explanation, and so I think that's something we need to continue to work on, our messaging on. But most people understand them. Some people have a problem with it. They'll say, "You know what, we're not willing to do hourly. That puts too much risk on us." And that's totally cool. It's not something that... maybe they're not a good fit for us. KEN: Well, yeah, the thing is, whenever you're asking a vendor to assume risk for you... You're paying for it somewhere, right? You know, if they want you to be the insurance, then you're paying them to provide insurance. Either that, or they're mismanaged and they're gonna go out of business and then you don't have support. You know, when we switched to weekly, I was concerned that we'd have trouble selling it. It doesn't seem like it's been too big of a deal. For the most part, people still mostly care about the total number, correct? And how you get there? TODD: Correct. KEN: They're not as, they're not usually as concerned with... We've had a few cases where... We had something recently where the upstream source of funds was a grant that had rules about how it's charged, so there's things that come up around that. So sometimes we'll make exceptions. And we have at least one enterprise client that we still use hourly. But for the most part, this has been pretty popular. We feel like it has the best of both worlds in some respects, that it has more predictability than hourly, but it still has built-in flexibility that a fixed-bid doesn't. TODD: Our team definitely thinks the weekly is a success. It wasn't that difficult to convert clients from hourly to weekly, and for new clients, they don't seem to mind whatsoever. It's interesting from our team's perspective. Sometimes they could be working more than they used to, because they have to fix these bugs or whatever, but because they don't have the stress or the guilt, a lot of times of the hourly, they still like it better. It's kind of counter-intuitive, in that way. JAMON: Yeah, I think there's three vectors, or three metrics that you would go off of, you know. "How satisfied is the client?" "How stress-free is it for the employees?" And then, "How much do we as owners like it as a business model?" And from those metrics, I feel like all three have been a success. TODD: Yeah, it's definitely been a success. I think we could definitely do with hourly, but I think the weekly billing has been a huge success. I'm 90 percent sure that it was 90 percent a success. (laughter) As far as the psychology from the client standpoint? We understand... One of the things we do, we hire a people who have a lot of experience, either they ran their own small businesses, they ran teams, that kind of stuff. We have a lot of people who have real-world kind of business experience. We're definitely not business consultants, per se, but we do work with a lot of start-ups who need some basic, not basic, but need some of our business consulting. And one of the things that we do is we understand the risk involved. And there's a lot of companies like us don't talk about this at all. For example, from a client's perspective, it's a big purchase. If you're spending 100,000, 200,000, 500,000 dollars? That's a large purchase. If you're a start-up, that's a risky thing. So we try to really think about their risk. Now, we have our own risks, too. We could put five people on a project for a few weeks, incur a huge amount of money, and they could just never pay us, go out of business, whatever reason. So we have risk as well. So we're not here just to alleviate all their risk and put it on our shoulders, being the insurance risk, insurance Ken just mentioned. But we do try to figure out a way to have a nice balance between us helping them with their risk, and them helping us with our risk, and just being up-front. Like, "This is risky, you don't know us. You've had a recommendation, maybe you liked us during a sales call so you're choosing us, but you really don't know us." And we're a huge believer in gaining trust over time. So at the beginning, or whatever that word is Ken had, I forgot now, already, at the beginning, the risks are much higher. So we do put a lot of thought into that. Some clients, to be honest, aren't a good fit for our system. We're very happy to help them find someone who would better fit the system than us. So we do lose some clients, for sure. JAMON: One way that some clients have asked us to share an undue amount of risk is when they ask us for hourly with a cap. That is sort of the worst of both worlds for us. If we finish early, we make less money, but we also take all of the risk of when it goes over. So we really do refuse, essentially, to do that. Now, there have been some situations where we've put such a cap on ourselves because of particular circumstances, but we don't work for clients that demand that sort of thing. TODD: Yeah, we have a general rule where we strive not to work for free. Which sounds funny, especially if you're in a different kind of business than ours, but it's actually super common for businesses like ours to work a lot for free, for nothing. And it's actually, in my opinion, a rampant problem in our industry. So we really strive not to do that. I think that would probably come to a shock for a lot of people. If you're selling hamburgers, the concept, "Well, you know, 30 percent of the people walk through today, you're just gonna give them the hamburger for free." That would be shocking to them. But that's kind of like what people like us do, too much so, in my opinion. Anything else on the psychology from the client standpoint that we could talk to, or talk about? KEN: I mean, pricing is a huge topic. TODD: Could you talk about pricing per week or per hour, the psychology? Because I know you've discussed this in the past, Ken, and I'd love for you to tell people. KEN: Yeah, so one of the things we... We've tried a bunch of different ways of pricing. So one of the things we did before, we would only bill for extreme, like the instant we step away from the keyboard, the timer goes off. When we first started, we tried to do this. So we would charge like a pretty high hourly rate. But then, the actual number of hours burnt would be low. Nobody liked that. Nobody understood that, it was much better to bill in the way that people kind of understood about that. When we would bill hourly, like an hourly rate, we're much more likely to get really kind of angry responses sometimes. To people who didn't really have a sense for what software costs. Because what people will do is, they'll look at the hourly rate, and they'll compare it to how much they make. Right? They'll go, "Wait a minute, that's what a lawyer makes!" Or something. It's not actually what a lawyer makes. But we would get this very visceral reaction to that. But by doing it weekly, where we've kind of smoothed all that out, then they can kind of approach it more like a product that they're buying. Kind of like, "Well, it comes in this many chunks, and okay, that makes sense." So that, I think, was always one of the benefits of fixed-bid for people. Fixed-bid in sales has always been nice, because you can just say, "Here it is, and that's your price." Although, it's 100,000 dollars, they were like, "Well, my budget's 150, so I could do that." Right? And with doing this weekly, although it's not quite there, it is a little bit like... The way we're doing it now is a little bit like fixed bid plus an extremely well-oiled change request process, basically. JAMON: Yeah, exactly. KEN: And that seems to solve both of those problems. Where it's like, they can look at that and instead of being some unknown number of hours, weeks seem like they're easier to kind of grapple with. And that's exactly what we want, right? I don't think we end up charging more, particularly. But it does come in these chunks that are easier to grapple with. They know what size the check are gonna be that they're writing next week because it's gonna be a certain cadence. It's not the surprise every time. It just seems to work better. Go ahead, Todd. TODD: People will pay extra money to remove the surprises happily. KEN: Yes, absolutely. TODD: I don't think our weekly is more money, but even if it were, they would be happier. It's so funny, what Ken said is they associate their salary with their hourly, or even if they take their salary and divide it by 40 and divide it by 52 or whatever, and they compare it to ours, and they think, "Wow, these people are getting paid a massive amount." Of course, they don't see all the other business stuff. There's actually no– KEN: They're not counting the overhead, they're not counting the things that they're not having to pay for. TODD: I'm not complaining at all, but it's just a fact of our business: we actually have fairly low margins for a business type. Our team is extremely expensive compared to other businesses, extremely. Not saying we overpay them, I'm not claiming that, it's just the nature of their jobs. JAMON: Yeah, and another aspect of this, and I realize we're going a little long here, but another aspect of this that we could talk about is that with the point system, it's not 100 points for each person, it's if we have three people working on it, the whole team needs to deliver 300 points. So they work together to divide up the work in such a way that maybe someone's doing 150, the other person's doing 50 but they're doing a lot of client communication. And allow them to divvy up the work in a way that makes the most sense to them. Where with the hourly bonus structure that we had before, that would actually hurt the person doing most of the communication with the client. And that was a problem. TODD: That's huge. And that was a decision we made. And because we chose that, meaning that we don't track individual contributions. I mean, technically we could probably figure it out based on Trello cards and that kind of stuff. But we don't track individual... It's team-oriented. So if it's three people, like Jamon said, it's 300 points. And we give them the flexibility to figure it out, how to be the best, most efficient to do those 300 points that they can. And I think that's worked out really well. It has some downsides. It is harder to keep metrics on individuals that way. JAMON: Yeah, a lot of what we do for that is to simply ask their teammates how it was to work with them, try to encourage them to be honest about their contributions and things. It's not a perfect system, but we are able to track individual contributions a little bit better, just through the perceptions of their teammates. TODD: I do it more efficiently, I get 'em all in one room and I say, "Out of all of you, who's the worst?" (laughter) And then I let 'em... It's kind of like that inspirational movie, Hunger Games? JAMON: The inspirational movie? TODD: Yeah, so, and it's quite efficient, and you get right to the meat of it, literally, sometimes, to the meat of it. JAMON: Literally. KEN: And what they say is, "You are, Dad, you are!" TODD: And I remind them once again, I'm not their father, that's Darth Vader. Fact. JAMON: There's a lot more we could talk about here on this topic, this is probably something we could revisit at a future... KEN: You may have noticed that we like to talk? Especially Todd. But, yeah... TODD: My words are all very small, so I need lots of them. KEN: We get very passionate about very dry things, sometimes. TODD: There's some things to be said, too, on the subject of billing... It's a touchy subject, because although you can say that clients can be difficult in certain ways in regarding to this, it's all... Assuming that the client isn't a jerk and they're just trying to squeeze a rock for as much blood as they can, and let's assume that's the case, and most times that is the case. From their perspective– KEN: Wait, you should be clear on what you're saying is the case. 'Cause otherwise, you mean... Most of the time, they are not trying to be jerks. That's what you're saying. TODD: Most of our clients– KEN: Okay, good. TODD: Most of our clients are really great, and they're showing up, and they're partnering with us, and we're both working towards the goal of making something awesome. So if they are being difficult in a certain way that we may complain about in the background, they always usually have a reason why. It's usually a miscommunication, it's just something that they're misunderstanding on their end. KEN: And like you said, presumably they're getting the software because they need it for some reason. Right? And it's a lot of money– TODD: It's scary! KEN: Yeah, it is scary! TODD: And the last thing they wanna hear is, I mean, if you're doing a bathroom, you don't want a contract to come over and say it's gonna be from 50 dollars to 50,000 dollars. Which may be a true statement, but you don't wanna hear that, that's horrible. JAMON: Well, one of the ways that we can mitigate that is if someone does have a fixed, like, hard-cap budget, which does happen and we understand when that is, then something else has to be flexible. And usually it's scope. We're not gonna compromise on quality. We wanna deliver really quality experience. But scope can be adjusted, and if a client is willing to work with us on scope, we can accommodate a tighter budget and still deliver a quality, but narrower scope, piece of software. TODD: That brings up something very interesting, Jamon. It is a trade-off between low-price and low-risk. So, if we crank up the risk, we can give a quote at a very, the lowest price possible, because it may change. "We think we could possibly do it at this price." The easier thing to do is have a much larger price that reduces risk, but they're almost guaranteed to pay a lot more. Some companies hate the first one. They'd much rather have a much bigger price that's reliable and low-risk. Other companies, especially if they're really lean, they would prefer the first one. And the problem from our perspective is, we don't know who's who. And it's hard to get them to tell us, or they may not even know. So when you choose to go down one of those paths, do we give them as lean as possible estimate but we know it's much more likely to change? Or do we give them a much larger estimate that reduced the risk? When you're doing that, you're kind of choosing your customer at that point, too. It's all very complicated.

In this episode we are talking about our remote work tools that enable our distributed team across the world to collaborate, design, and build software. Throughout the episode, Todd, Ken, and Jamon touch on their favorite tools—from Slack, Zoom, and Google Sheets—why they chose them, and the ways they have added custom features to really make the remote experience special. Show Links & Resources Slack Zoom G Suite BlueJeans Screenhero RealtimeBoard InVision Trello Airtable Shush Dropbox Bigscreen VR Taking the Pain Out of Video Conferences by Ken Miller Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: The topic at hand today is remote tools, and all of the different ways that you have built a remote company. Where do you even start when you're thinking about what tools to pick when you're going remote? KEN MILLER: This is Ken Miller, by the way. It happened very organically for us. To be honest, I don't know that we could've done this company this way before Slack. Because the tools that came before, Hipchat and IRC and Yammer, even though I worked there. Sorry, Yam-fam. They just didn't quite do it. Right? They didn't quite create the online atmosphere that we need to work the way that we do. Does that sound accurate to you, Todd? I feel like once we found Slack, we were like, "Holy crap, this is epic!" TODD WERTH: I think there's a few alternatives. Hipchat, at the time, wasn't good enough. There were a few alternatives we investigated. I would like to mention at the beginning of this ... This is Todd Werth, by the way. I would like to mention at the beginning, I imagine that a lot of companies in this podcast will need to be paying us an advertising fee. Like Slack. JAMON HOLMGREN: We actually adopted Slack before we were remote. We had ... I think we were using Google Hangouts or something. Or whatever of the myriad Google chats there are out there. They have like 12 apps. We were using something else in person, and then we started using Slack organically right when it first came out. TODD: Sorry about that noise you all heard. That was me throwing up a little bit in my mouth when you said "Google Hangouts". (laughter) KEN: We'll talk about video-chat in a minute. JAMON: By the way, this is Jamon Holmgren. It was ... Initially, we jumped onboard. They did a really good job marketing themselves. We had used Hipchat a little bit, but it just wasn't what we expected. We started using Slack. That was in early 2014, I think it was? I don't think it's a coincidence that within a year and a half we ended up going remote. I think that was one of the enabling tools. We got used to it in the office, but it enabled remote work. TODD: To talk about chat apps or chat services is important, but on a more general standpoint, I would say how you approach it is actually try 'em and do it. A lot of companies seem to just use whatever is available and not look for optimum solutions. If trying three or four different chat systems is too onerous for you, that's probably the wrong attitude, in my opinion. KEN: You think, "don't settle". Don't assume that the first thing that you try is the only thing, and then conclude that remote isn't gonna work because the tool that you tried sucks. JAMON: We tried a lot of tools at ClearSight, before the merger. We tried ... I can't even name them all, to be honest. Part of it is because I like ... I'm a gadget guy, I like to try new things and see how it goes. There was actually a lot of skepticism around Slack because they're just yet another tool that they had to log into and pay attention to. "We already had the email, so do we really need this." It was kinda funny, when I went back and looked at our inner-company email, just tracked ... I think I used the "everyone@clearsightstudio.com" or something email address to track how often we were using it for company communications. It just dropped off a cliff after Slack. The amount of email, the volume of email that was flying around went way, way, way down. In fact, I remember we used to send GIFs in the email threads, and stuff. There were elements of the culture that we have today in Slack going on in email threads. Slack was just so much more well-suited to that. That actually came about very organically. We had tried a bunch of different things. We tried Slack, and it just picked up steam, picked up steam, picked up steam. TODD: I don't ... I'm not even exaggerating, I don't believe I've ever sent an email to anyone at Infinite Red internally. I don't think so. KEN: Unless it's a forward from someone external. TODD: Correct. I think there's people on our team who probably don't check their email very often because they don't have a lot of -- KEN: Yeah, if you don't do sales or any kind of external outreach -- TODD: Yeah. That was a sticking point a few times, when people were sending out the emails, and we had to ... They were wondering why people weren't responding, it's because the variety of people never check their email. JAMON: It is funny, because email does still, it is still a tool that we use for remote communication with outside clients, especially people first coming to us. But as soon as we can, we get them onto Slack because we've found that that level of communication is the least friction, it's very seamless. Slack is definitely featuring very centrally in our remote-tool story, for sure. TODD: Rather than just ... I'm sure a lot of people out there use Slack. If you don't, give it a try. But rather than just gushing on Slack, I do wanna say that the important part here is we did go through a lot of different chat services. You have to give 'em some time. At first, for example ... We do love Slack, but at first it didn't seem that different. There wasn't a bullet list that's like, "Oh, this has feature X", it was a bunch of little, subtle things that made it work especially well for us. KEN: Part of the meta-point there, is you have to treat your tools really seriously. Right? Google and Amazon and all these big companies, any well-funded start-up, whatever, they're gonna lavish a lot of attention on making an office that works for them. Right? TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: They're gonna create an office environment very thoughtfully. I've been to a lot of these offices. A lot of them are very thoughtfully considered. Right? They're designed to create a certain atmosphere. For example, I was at the Square offices once. Huge, cavernous room designed to create a sense of energy. That's the open-office mantra, that sense of energy. They had these little cubicle ... nicely designed cubicle things where you could go if you wanted quiet. Clearly, noise was the default. That architecture creates a culture. At least it reinforces a culture. As a remote company, your tools are your architecture. You either need to buy them from people who design them in a way that works for you, and Slack seems to work for a lot of people, or you build things that work for you, or you create norms about how they're used that do the same thing. We've done some things on Slack, we've done some things on Zoom, to create that sense of being together. Todd? TODD: I would like to add emphasis to what Ken just said. Imagine a time that someone puts into an office: architecture, the layout, the furniture. Rearranging it multiple times, placing stuff. Now think about the time that companies you've worked for put into remote tools. Anyone out there with their hands up saying they spent about 30 minutes on their remote tools -- KEN: Ever! TODD: Yeah. It's not surprising that one is superior to other in those organizations. I would pile on, like Ken said, and take the same amount of effort and consideration of your tools as a remote company as you did with everything else in the physical space if you're a commuter company. CHRIS: I'm interested, too, because as you're talking, you're talking about the difference between physical architecture and the architecture of your tools that allow you to do remote work, and if everyone's using Slack, and it looks and functions the same way, what brings the sense of uniqueness to a company that's using the same tools? TODD: Me. Just me being around makes everything unique, wonderful, and amazing. To answer the real question, you have to take Slack ... One of the great things about Slack, 'cause it's highly customizable, you can add plug-ins, you can add all sorts of integrations. We're gonna talk about other tools than Slack. They literally just pay us a crapload of money just to talk about this. JAMON: I wish. KEN: I wish. TODD: You don't take the vanilla. The point of a tool like that is you take it and you make it your own. JAMON: I did see someone tweeting about switching remote companies. They quit one company and they got hired by another. They did mention, actually, how similar it was. You go into the same place; you sit down at the same chair; you have the same computer in front of you; you log in to a different Slack, and you start working. Right? There is some level of consistency there. In a way, that's a very good thing. You can be comfortable very, very, very soon. There are plenty of things to learn about a new company without having to also learn new office layout, new office norms, policies about who can put their lunch in the fridge and who can't. I don't know what else. It's been so long since I've been in an office, I don't even know. I think there is some level of normalcy there because people do use similar tools. Like Todd said, you can customize Slack to work the way that your company needs to, and you can customize other tools as well. Since we're programmers, since our team has a lot of programming capability on it, we do actually build a lot of glue code in the scripts and things that will help tie all the tools together. KEN: In most organizations that have adopted chat tools, whether it's Slack or something else, they are usually billed as an internal supplement replacement for email. It is great at that, don't get me wrong, but I think something that gets lost in the way people talk about in the way we communicate now is that ... Let me tell a little story. I used to be a big fan of Roger Ebert. Rest in peace. Brilliant writer, right? Super enthusiastic. He was very critical of the way people write online. Very critical of things like emojis and emoticons. I think, while I respect him a lot, I think he completely missed the point on that. The point of that is, although, yes, we type to communicate online, it's not really writing. Not in the way our English teachers taught us. Right? It's typed speech, really. Right? It's a register of communication that's closer to the way that we talk than it is to the way that we would write if we're writing an essay or a blog post. One of the things that I really like about, Slack for example, is the rich way that you can communicate without it looking junky. It doesn't look like something awful or 4chan or some of the other really junky-looking message boards that have that level of expressiveness. It gives you the level of expressiveness so that you can substitute for the lack of facial expressions and body-language, but it's not writing. You don't write ... you don't type into Slack the same way you do. It's much closer to the way that you talk. For a remote organization, where we're not on Zoom all the time, although we are a lot, it's super important that you have that level of human expressiveness in your medium, in the medium that you're using to replace spoken word. TODD: Three comments. One: Zoom is the video conferencing tool we use, and we'll talk about that in a second. Two: I don't spend much time on 4chan, Ken, so I'll take your word on that one. (laughter) Three: just to give an example, talking about customization and you might be asking yourself, "Okay, Todd, I've used Slack. I've used chat. What're you talking about?" Just give you a few flavors. The simplest is creating your own channels that have some sort of cultural significance to your organization. One of ours is called "Rollcall", where we ... It's the digital equivalency of walking in and out of the office. "I'm here this morning." "I'm gonna go get my car worked on." "I'm back." It's not just status, it's also ... not just whether you're working or not, but it's a way to communicate basic, little life things in a short way. We have another one called "Kudos", where we give kudos to people. Which, at first, I thought, probably, wouldn't take off, but it actually did. It's where you give kudos to people for things that they did well, and I'm really shocked how many people give kudos and how many people respond. That's obviously just using the base tool and choosing what content to put on there, and how to organize. There's other things, too. Obviously there's things like code-repository integration, a code bug-reporting integration. We integrate with other companies' Slacks. They have a Slack channel, we have a Slack channel, and they connect so that we can do that with our clients. All the way to we have a custom Bot we wrote for Slack. Her name is Ava. She does a variety of internal processes for us. She's kind of ... In the old days, you'd have a database and you'd have a Windows app written to connect your database for your company, you'd do things in there. We have a lot of internet SaaS-tools. And then we have Ava that integrates a lot of them together. JAMON: Todd, can you give an example of something that Ava does for us? TODD: Yes. There's some basic things that a chatbot might do. For instance, you might wanna ask her where Jamon is, and she'll tell you the information she knows about Jamon. It's a lot of operational stuff. For instance, our Project Manager, Jed, has to produce weekly reports for clients. Ava produces those for him. Stuff like that. Stuff that you would normally do, like I said, in the old days, in a desktop app personally. JAMON: Todd came up with Ava quite a while ago, actually. It was sort of a toy to start with, just playing around with it. He had some ideas where it might go, but over time we've actually invested more and more resources into this internal chatbot and it's proven to be quite valuable. It's saved a lot of time, reduced the amount of overhead that we have to have tracking things because it's able to do a lot of process things. KEN: So far, she has not escaped and murdered us. (laughter) TODD: Not so far. I'm working on that. JAMON: That's a win. TODD: There's some tiny things. She's just a way for us, if we need to program something that we have a sticking point like, here's a very simple thing that took me five minutes to ruin. We do a lot of things on Mondays, and constantly wanna know what last Monday was, or Monday three weeks ago. You can literally just say, "Ava, what was Monday two weeks ago," and she'll tell you. That's a very tiny thing. Generating project PDFs or generating project reports is a bigger thing, obviously. JAMON: Another tool we use to communicate, non-verbally in Slack, is "Reactions". Someone'll post something and we react to it. I think this is pretty common in Slack teams and this is something that Slack did a good job of coming up with a cool idea. Usually you think of up-voting and down-voting, but when you have the whole range of emojis, including custom ones and animated ones and things like that, it can be a very cool thing. One interesting example of this: we have an integration with ... Ken, what's the service we use for Chain React tickets? KEN: Zapier. JAMON: Zavier. Zapier, yeah, and it connects with Eventbrite, and that basically will post any time someone buys a ticket to Chain React, which is our React Native conference, of course, happening in Portland in July. You should buy a ticket. (laughter) We get a notification, and it pops in there, says who's coming. When we're getting down there ... We were getting down to the last few advanced workshops that were available, someone started putting a number emoji underneath it. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, like that. You can see then, at a glance, how many were left. It was very cool how we were all collaborating on that. When someone would buy the advanced workshop, Kevin VanGelder, who's our resident Windows guy, he would put a little Windows emoji on there because that's part of the advanced workshop. It was just a cool way to communicate and collaborate without even using words. TODD: I think the important part of using reactions or emojis or Slack Responses ... Reactions, if you're not familiar, Slack is ... It's simply, someone posts a message, and instead of responding to it, you can post a little image on it, like heart, or a thumbs up, or a vote-up, or whatever. Slack Response is an automatic system that, when you say X, it outputs Y into it. One Slack Response that Jamon hates is that when you say "I'm not a big fan", it posts this picture of this really, really small fan. It's hilarious. I love it. (laughter) JAMON: Really hilarious. TODD: Every time someone put ... We had some that we had to remove, 'cause they just came up too much. Every time you'd say "founders" it would show the Three Stooges, which is "Accurate", but... KEN: It was "founders' meeting". TODD: Oh, whatever. KEN: But still, yeah. TODD: It was accurate but a little too much noise. The point is, it's very important. We've probably added a huge number of Slack Responses, a huge number of our own emojis, and the emojis you can use for Responses. A lot of them have become very cultural. Just to give you a few examples: my cat, Calle, that's short for Calle Berry, I took a picture of her paw. And, of course, cats, if you just do the front part of their paw, it looks like they have four fingers instead of five because their fifth one's back further. We came with this emoji and this thing where, if someone does a really great job, they get a "high-four", instead of high-five, and that's Calle's Response. JAMON: I didn't actually know that was Calle's paw. TODD: Oh, yeah, that's Calle's paw. JAMON: That's cool. TODD: So that's a cultural thing that I created one day, and it just kinda stuck. It became a "high-four"; it is an Infinite Red thing, you get a "high-four". We have other things like that, too, that are very specific to our culture, where you have to explain to people who come in what that means. I would definitely customize it, make it fun. We don't worry too much if clients see it. We're not doing anything inappropriate. At first, there was discussion, "Is it professional if they accidentally trigger one of the Slack Responses?" "No, but does that really matter?" "No," in my opinion. KEN: It depends on the Response. (laughter) TODD: Of course. KEN: There were some that were a little over the line and that, without context, could be a little startling. We removed those. TODD: Yeah, that's true. KEN: But for the most part, yeah, just something that's quirky. Hopefully, we all have clients that, at least the people who are in the Slack room are able to appreciate that. TODD: Another one that's totally part of our culture is, there was this early picture of me looking into the camera with a stern face. That became the "shame" emoji. That's been used ever since. Every time someone wants to throw shame upon someone, my face is there. I don't know if that's good or bad. JAMON: There's another one that's quite disturbing, of you, Todd. TODD: Oh! When you say yes "yis", Y, I, S, yes that is disturbing. JAMON: "Yis dream." TODD: You have to work here to ... KEN: You had to be there. KEN: Some of the things that came from my experience at Yammer, where a lot of the company was run internally on Yammer, there's a couple of really big advantages to that. Especially, at an all-remote company, where the vast majority of conversations happen there. One is that there's very much less pressure to include people in meetings just because, just in case they might have something to say about it. Because if you've having a conversation in Slack, you just pull 'em in. Right? After the fact, and they can catch up. But the other was, there was an ethos at Yammer that was, there was this pat question which was, "Why is this private?" "Why did you make this group private?" "Why is this in a private chat?" Making closed conversations justify themselves, rather than being the default. Particularly when we invite other people into Slack, I notice there's a little period of training, where people will instinctively start DMing, 'cause it's like "Well, I need to ask Ken this question." Say we brought our bookkeeper in, right? They would ask me 'cause I was the contact. I'm like, "Ask this question in Finance." Right? "Ask this question in the Finance channel." Which happens to be one of the private ones, for a variety of fairly obvious reasons. By asking in the channel, then the other people who might be interested can just observe. That's one of the ways that you compensate for the lack of that serendipitous, overheard conversation that people are so fond of in a office. CHRIS: In Episode Two, we talked about the philosophy of remote work. Todd, you actually made a comment that was really interesting to me. You said, "When the leadership uses the remote tools, they immediately get better." Why do you think that's the case? TODD: Human nature. I'll answer your question with a little story. I worked for company ... This is circa 1999. I don't know. I didn't work for 'em; they were a client of ours. For many, many years they were very much a Microsoft shop. They had no interest in testing anything on other platforms like Mac or whatever. We worked for them for nine years, something like that. So this is all through the 2000s. It was frustrating for people who wanted to produce websites that were universal. If someone opened 'em on a Mac, it would actually look good and not look horrible. One day, one of the VPs who was above the software group bought an iPad. I think, about a year later, he bought a MacBook. Once he had that iPad, all of a sudden, it'd become very important that things look good on his iPad, which is funny and horrible at the same time. It is just human nature. If you use something, it's much more front of mind than if you don't. Even the best of people suffer this. If you have a mixed company, meaning you're part remote, part commuter, one of those groups is gonna be a second-class citizen. Period. If 10 people are in a meeting, and eight are remote and two are in the office, the two in the office are gonna be the second-class citizens. More often, it's the vice versa, right? Getting everyone on the same page gets rid of second-class citizens. If you wanna make the best remote environment, either getting the majority or getting the people who have more power in the remote situation will increase your tools' quality big time. JAMON: That's for sure. We've seen that internally at Infinite Red, as well. When we use the tools, which we do, leadership team is probably the heaviest user of the remote tools in a lot of ways. There are situations where they're just not good enough, and we make sure that they get changed, for sure. Zoom is a good ... Zoom, the video chat, video call system, is really an interesting one because it has worked the best for us in terms of video calls. We've used a whole bunch of them. We've used everything from Google Hangouts, Skype, Appear.in, which is pretty decent. Pretty frictionless, actually. I like Appear.in for how fast it is to jump into it, but the quality is still a little bit sub-optimal. A few others as well. The nice thing about Zoom is that it allows you to put everybody into a grid pattern. It has a gallery view, which is really cool because then you feel like you're having a meeting and not doing a presentation. That's something that came out of us doing sales calls and internal meetings where we kinda felt like, "I don't wanna be the person on the big screen," right? Feel like your giving a presentation. "I wanna feel like this is a meeting with everybody in an equal place." It makes people feel more comfortable. That was a situation where we were using the tools for various things and found the one that, I think, has worked the best 'cause, as a leadership team, we needed it. TODD: Yes, as far as video chat or video calls ... We actually need a name for that. What do you say if ... It's not really video chatting. JAMON: Video conferencing? TODD: I don't like ... KEN: It's not exactly "conferencing". TODD: I don't like the term. JAMON: Video meeting? KEN: Video meeting. TODD: Yeah, there needs to be a term for that. We need to coin a term for that, at least internally. CHRIS: Zooming. TODD: Zooming. Well that's ... That's not tool-specific. KEN: Slack as a tool is much stickier, in the long term, probably, than Zoom is. At the moment, Zoom is, by far, in our experience, the best quality. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: But that could change. Slack ... there's a lot we've invested in customizing and it would be harder, but ... Although, we have invested some in Zoom, which we can talk about a bit. TODD: I would say Zoom is our favorite for our situation. One of our clients is BlueJeans.net, which is not really a competitor, but they do video conferencing. BlueJeans is really great for many things. One thing is they do every platform well. KEN: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yep. TODD: Which, Zoom, and a lot of the other ones don't necessarily do. Now, we're all mostly on Macs, and it works really well on that, so that works out well. Also, BlueJeans.net has a lot of additional features. Where we basically just need video conferencing; Zoom is so superior. Google Hangouts is horrible. Please, please stop using Google Hangouts. KEN: Don't use Skype. Don't use Google Hangouts. TODD: Well, Skype -- KEN: Skype has gotten better, but -- TODD: Skype's quality is great, but it does a max of six people. We have 26 people. KEN: I disagree that they're quality is great. TODD: I was being ni -- KEN: Even domestically, I've had problems with it. (laughter) JAMON: We have Microsoft people listening. TODD: I was being nice, Ken. JAMON: It crashes a lot on Mac. KEN: The point is, here, you should demand rock-solid video 99% of the time. TODD: Yeah. KEN: If that's not what you're getting, look at another tool. JAMON: This extends to the internet bandwidth that you have available at your place of work, too. Some people that were really scraping by on 20Mb or something connections, and it was impacting video quality, and -- TODD: On what tool? KEN: No, their connection. JAMON: Their internet connection, yeah. That was something that we, overtime, got everybody to upgrade to faster and faster internet. I think that was a success for, pretty much, everybody. They have pretty acceptable internet, now, at this point. TODD: Some aren't as much. We have a person who's a nomad and travels around. We have someone who's in extremely rural Canada, up above Toronto, Tor-on-toe, I'm told is the proper way to say that. Zoom does very well in bandwidth, so the people that do have limited bandwidth, that works very well. We actually have meetings, 26 people in Zoom, which before would have been crazy. Skype limits you to six, which I'm not sure how useful that is for most meetings, but good for you, Skype. KEN: The only thing it's not so great on is battery-life, if you're using a mobile device. JAMON: It sort of trades CPU time for bandwidth. KEN: It does, yeah. JAMON: One of the things that Zoom doesn't do, that we've sort of built a system on top of, is permanent conference rooms. We've found this to be very useful to say, "Hey, let's jump into this 'conference room A', or 'conference room B'." We have better names for it. We name them after rooms in the boardgame Clue. TODD: Trademark Milton Bradley. (laughter) JAMON: There's a billiard room, there's a conservatory, there's a study, kitchen, et cetera. We have different uses for those different rooms. Some are for sales calls; some are for ... One is called Kitchen, which we use for the kitchen table, it's basically where people just jump in there, and work together in relative quiet. It's a cool little concept. We actually built an online, like a website, as well as a desktop app that shows a Clue board with the different rooms that light up when people are in them, and then it puts avatars of who's in that room, including guests, which is very cool because I can go in there and say, "Hey, look! Chris and Todd are having a meeting over there. I'm gonna jump in and see what's going on." I can just click in there, and it opens a Zoom window, and I'm in their meeting. TODD: For example, currently, Chris, Jamon, Ken and I are in Study. We have Kevin and Ryan in Library, and we have Jed in the Billiard Room by himself. I'm not sure what that's about. Maybe playing a little pool. KEN: This goes back to the notion of tools as architecture. Consider the experience of being in an office, and you want a meeting. You say, "Hey, let's meet in Fisherman's Wharf." I was in an office where they named things after San Francisco neighborhoods. "Let's meet in Fisherman's Wharf." Everybody, after they've been oriented into the office, knows where that is and they just go. That's it, right? That's the experience, right? Furthermore, if you wanna know where somebody is, you walk around the building, look into the rooms, and see that so-and-so is in Fisherman's Wharf, so they're in a meeting, they're busy. Now let's look at what it's like to be remote, without a tool like this. "Where's the meeting? Okay, I gotta ask somebody. Oh, okay. Oh, did someone start the meeting? Oh, no, no, okay, somebody needs to start the meeting. Alright, gimme a second, I'm gonna start the meeting. Here's the Zoom URL." TODD: Oh, God! KEN: "Okay, you gotta invite somebody." "Do you remember the Zoom URL?" "I don't remember the Zoom URL." "Okay, hang on. Okay, I got it. Here you go." That's the UX, right now. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Of the base ... TODD: Oh, jeez. KEN: ... video conferencing tool, and it's no wonder people hate that! JAMON: Yep. KEN: Right? TODD: Can you imagine? KEN: Yeah. It turns out ... We've had to increase the number of rooms over the years, right? But how many do we have now? Eight? TODD: Eight. KEN: So we have eight rooms now? TODD: Eight current rooms. KEN: That's pretty much fine. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). For a team our size, that works well. JAMON: We usually don't fill all of ... I think, yesterday, I looked in there and there were six in use, which was kind of a anomaly, but ... KEN: In an office, we can keep adding those as long as we need to. JAMON: That's right. KEN: This is a case where I think we've created something that is actually better than what people who have an office have. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Right? Because you can, just at a glance, see where people are. Nobody has to even tell you what room they're in. They just say, "Hey, we're meeting." You go look at the Clue board, and you see where the people that you're meeting with are, and you join the room. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: It's just one more little piece of constant friction that we've eliminated. I love it. I think it's a fantastic tool. TODD: Yeah, I keep the Clue desktop app open all day long while I'm at work. It's also cool to see the little avatars and stuff. Makes me feel like I'm at work. When we first started, you did have to push ... This is a very common interaction. "Hey, Todd, I need your help with X." And I'm like, "Let's have a meeting" or "Let's jump in Zoom" or whatever. "Which one?" "I'm already there. I joined a room as soon as you said it." "Which one?" "Open Clue. (laughter) Look for my name. Click on it." JAMON: Yeah. TODD: That only took a few weeks, to be honest, of constantly just needling that to the point where, when someone says, "Hey, I wanna jump in a room," they look and they see where you jumped in. KEN: That brings back the importance of having the leadership on the tool. TODD: Yes. JAMON: That's right. This tool actually came out of a side-project. I think Gant and AJ, two of our engineers, came up with the idea and built a prototype, and put it out there. It was ... I remember being, initially, a little bit skeptical that it'd be useful and it's turned out to be a really key part of our remote experience. TODD: That's actually an important point. No one asked anyone to make that tool. No one asked for permission to make that tool. They made it. They turned it on. Now, we've had tools that people've made. For instance, my tool Ava, which, now, is very useful, originally was Dolores, which is from HBO's great TV show, "Westworld". Dolores never caught on. She didn't do enough important stuff, and so she just kinda died. Later I resurrected her as Ava, which is from the movie "Ex Machina". Excellent movie, by the way. KEN: It's still kind of a disturbing allusion, though. TODD: It is, but it's ... It's a great movie. And then the next movie he did, which was "Annihilation", was fantastic as well. Anyways, not important, obviously. The point is, no one needs to ask for permission. They can make tools. They do. They put 'em out there, and they live or die based on whether or not they're actually used. We do sunset things that just never really took off. CHRIS: You're mentioning a lot of tools that enable remote work, that enable productive work. What are some tools that you're thinking about or are in place that help with focus and eliminating distractions? 'Cause sometimes, people new to these environments can look at these tools going, "Man there's so many distractions. How do I work?" JAMON: I actually think that's one of the biggest benefits of working remotely, which is kind of counter-intuitive. You think, "Oh, there's so many distractions when you're working remotely." Actually, you can turn off Slack. You can turn your screen to "do not disturb". You can shut off Zoom. You can turn off you're email. You can close all of those applications and just have the app that you're doing the work in, you're writing a blog post, you're writing code, you can just have that open. You can turn on a "do not disturb" mode in Slack that'll actually tell people that you're currently away. If you use the tools that are available, remote work can actually be much better, because what happens in an office? Someone can't get a hold of you on email or Slack, so what do they do? They hop up and they walk over to your office, and they're like, "Hey, did you get my email?" (laughter) "Okay, I will check my email, eventually, here. Is this really important?" One of the things that we do is ... This is kind of funny, but we'll actually say "I'm going offline for three hours, 'cause I'm gonna focus on this thing. If it's really important, text me." Our phone numbers are there, right? Nobody's gonna text you, 'cause that just feels like a complete intrusion. Right? KEN: It does happen. Like, if it's a genuine emergency. JAMON: It does happen if it's like an emergency. But that is so rare. That is awesome, because you're adding a ton of friction, but you're still giving them some way to get to you. I think that's a good property of remote work, that you can actually focus more in those situations than you can in an office. TODD: Yeah, try to turn off all the noise in an open-concept office. Good luck! KEN: Yeah, an office is distracting by default. You have to use technology to get some focus. I can't think of any tool that we use just for focus. Right? It's about human habits around how they use the tools that are already there. TODD: I think there are some, Ken. I don't personally use them. KEN: Yeah, yeah. I mean there are things, but there's nothing we use as a company. TODD: No, but there are people here that use, for one thing, they'll use the various timer apps that tell them to stand up, or if they set a timer for focus -- KEN: I've used the Pomodoro timer. TODD: Yeah, there are things. What's cool about remote work as opposed to depressing cubicle work (laughter), is you can set up the environment -- KEN: Soul-crushing commute work. (laughter) TODD: Soul-crushing commute work, SCCW, I like it. In those situations, you have to go to the lowest common denominator. If 50% of the people are very productive and get focused with music, and 50 can't at all, you're gonna have no music. When you're sitting in your own environment, whatever that environment is, whether it's your home, or a café, or co-working space, or whatever it is that you've chosen to be most efficient in, when you're sitting in that environment, you can control and make it perfect for you to be able to focus. Personally, if I'm doing design work or visual work, I play music. It gets me in the groove. If I'm programming, I cannot have any music. Or if I do have music, it can't have any lyrics in it. That's a focus thing. I tend to like to work more in the dark, strangely. I love light and I live in a very sunny place, and a very sunny house, but I have noticed that I tend to get more in the zone in dark and often late at night, for me personally. CHRIS: I'm the same way, Todd. I have to fake my brain into thinking it's late at night by closing all the blinds and turning the lights off. And it actually helps productivity. TODD: Yeah, that's interesting. I used to have this problem at every company I worked at. Even, say, I shared a room with four other people. One office, and four. I would wanna have all the lights off and have a desk lamp so I could see. No one liked this. Having the fluorescent lights on ... I didn't take cyanide, but I do believe I shopped online for cyanide, just saying. (laughter) KEN: So this is in your browser history, now, forever, man. (laughter) There's a FBI file on you. TODD: Oh, there's been a FBI file. Come on. If you don't have a FBI file on you, what are you doing with your life? (laughter) JAMON: At the old ClearSight office, we had some fluorescent lights, and one by one they would burn out. Nobody would tell the maintenance guy because they just liked that they were burning out. (laughter) Eventually it got quite dark in there and everybody, they just wouldn't even turn on the light. TODD: I would like to make a confession. I have purposely broke some lights in offices. KEN: "True Confessions with Todd Werth." (laughter) TODD: You don't want true ones. No, that actually -- CHRIS: That's Season Two of the podcast. (laughter) TODD: That actually is very true. Sometimes you just have to ... KEN: Civil disobedience? TODD: Yes, I like the way you phrased that. Makes things more noble and less selfish. (laughter) KEN: Yeah, right. Guerilla productivity. JAMON: We have some other tools to talk about, too, right? TODD: Oh, yeah, we have other tools to talk about. JAMON: Should we talk about some of them, or ... TODD: Yes. KEN: But enough about Todd. (laughter) TODD: I'll be here all week. Do not eat the veal. JAMON: One of the tools that has been really helpful for us is Google Sheets. Obviously, that's the spreadsheet program in Google Apps. We ... We're having trouble ... Again, this is pre-merger. We're having trouble figuring out how to schedule people. It was just a real pain. Eventually, my Project Manager at the time, came up with a system that involved sticky notes on a board that were, across the top were weeks, and down the left side were the names of people. We could just put sticky notes. My wife went out and bought a whole bunch of different colored sticky notes. We'd put the same project as the same color across the board. You could, at a glance, see who was working on the same project. You could see how long it was going to be, as far as number of weeks, and every week we'd move 'em over to the left and add another column. That eventually migrated onto Google Sheets, 'cause, of course, that doesn't work so well when you're remote. The collaboration tools on Google Sheets are extremely good. It's very, very responsive to having multiple people on it. When we do our Friday scheduling meeting for the next week, and beyond, we'll all pull open the sheet, and we look at it, and we can all update it ... If we see something that's wrong, we can update it. We can change colors of the backgrounds. It's worked really well for, now, two and a half years. I think that's a remote tool that has actually been quite useful for us for quite some time. Not only does it give us forward-looking data, but it also gives us backward-looking. We can look at previous years and see what projects were we working on at the time, who was working on what, all the way throughout. It's been a very cool tool. We're just repurposing Google Sheets to use as a scheduling tool. TODD: Another tool we used to use ... Jeez, I can't remember what it's called. What was the [inaudible 00:43:17] tool we used to use? JAMON: Screenhero. KEN: Screenhero? TODD: Screenhero, yes, of course. I remember when Screenhero was ... It was eventually bought by Slack and is being integrated into Slack. We used to use that a lot, but truthfully, the tools in Zoom for screensharing stuff became superior and so I think almost everyone pairs with each other Zooming. TODD: Another tool we use is RealtimeBoard, which is a sticky board analogist tool; the designers -- KEN: Designers love it. TODD: The designers used it a lot, but we also use it in leadership and the developers, I think, are starting to look into it. It's great for brainstorming. It's a real-time tool, kinda like Google Docs or Google Sheets, where everyone can use it at the same time, and you see everyone using it. That's been really great. The designers use the heck out of InVision, which is a wonderful tool for showing designs, getting notes, and collaborating with clients, collaborating with the rest of the team, and that kind of stuff. Another tool we use for project management a lot is Trello. If you're not familiar, with it, it's a great project management tool. It's a Kanban board, if you're familiar with those. Not only do we use Trello, we also integrated ... Ava connects to Trello, produces reports from ... Ava connects to Airtable, which is another interesting mix between a database and a spreadsheet. We use Airtable and Trello. Those are some other tools we use. KEN: Something to mention, also, is that between Slack and Zoom we have some redundancy, because Zoom has rudimentary chat and Slack has video conferencing. It's not as good as Zoom's, but it's there, and we already have it. For example, when Slack is down, we have Zoom channels that we can all do basic communication in. That provides a certain amount of resiliency for the work environment, and that's very helpful. TODD: Yeah, it does go down every so often. It's funny because our company comes to a screeching halt when Slack goes down. KEN: Yeah, and that's a valid criticism, I think, of remote working. We do have the redundancy so that people can at least, basically, keep going. TODD: We all know now, if Slack's down ... It was, actually yesterday, coincidentally. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: If Slack is down, we go into Zoom chat. That took a while to get people ... It's funny 'cause we don't use email and stuff, and we use that so much. We could jump into a meeting. We've done that in the past, before we had this redundancy we would just jump into a meeting room and kinda like, "Hey, what do we do?" It was like the lights went out and everyone was confused at what to do. It's actually kind of amusing if you think about that. A bunch of virtual people wandering around in the dark wondering what to do. JAMON: We have a lot of redundancy of internet connection. Someone might be having internet issues, but not everybody is having internet issues. That's a pretty big deal. I remember the office internet would stop working and, even though we were all in the same place, yes we could collaborate, no we couldn't work 'cause we couldn't access -- KEN: Couldn't get to GitHub, can't get to... JAMON: ... Dropbox, whatever. Which, we do use GitHub, we use Dropbox. There's a little tool that I use that, I would say, about a third of the company also uses. We're on video calls a lot. When you're on a video call, sometimes it's nice to have a cough button: you hit a button and it mutes you for just a second, so you can cough or whatever. This one's called Shush. It's a Mac app. You can buy it for three bucks or something. It turns your function key into a mute button, so you just hit that button and it will mute you for a short amount of time. Or you can double-tap it and it turns into a push to talk button, which is nice when you're in a big group. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I don't use Shush, because I use a hardware version of that. I have quite a lot of audio equipment and video stuff. Pretty sure, in the remote podcast, we talked about the importance of having good equipment and spending a little money on good equipment. You cheap managers out there, stop doing that; you're horrible people. (laughter) JAMON: Also the background of your video call is really important. That was actually something Todd really emphasized when we first started. I will point out that he has the messiest background of all of us, right now. TODD: Well, to be clear, I have two cameras. One is a wide angle which I use for the team so I can move around and stuff; and I have a tighter angle I use for clients, in which case, what's behind me is very specifically chosen to be a background, and I keep that incredibly clean. JAMON: I just say that to tweak Todd, because he's the biggest champion of having a good background. TODD: Yes. Jamon's horizon, right now, is extremely tilted, and it's been driving me crazy the whole time, but I'll get over it. (laughter) KEN: I know. I can't unsee that. TODD: In my 46 years on this planet, I've learned not to mention that, even though I really, really want him to straighten his camera. KEN: It doesn't help, Jamon, you've still got a vertical line that is -- TODD: I'll tell you a funny story about backgrounds. Poor Ken. Ken had this very nice ... I don't know what it was. What was it, Ken? KEN: It's a bookcase, right, (laughter) but it's IKEA furniture, so it looks -- TODD: It's IKEA? KEN: It looks like a dresser. Yeah. TODD: This whole time it was IKEA? We thought it was important. We felt bad for making fun of it. 'Cause it looks like a dresser. It was right behind him, and it looked like Ken was sitting in bed (laughter) with his dresser behind him. KEN: Yes, reinforcing every stereotype about remote workers. (laughter) TODD: Right. We kept on bugging him, and he said, "It's a really nice bookcase." I didn't realize it was IKEA. KEN: I didn't say it was a really nice bookcase. I said it was a bookcase. (laughter) TODD: It looked like a dresser. JAMON: It really did, in fact. KEN: That's because it's IKEA furniture, so it's looks like that. TODD: I guess the point is, how things appear is more important than what they actually are. This is something a lot of people aren't familiar with. We have different people with different levels of quality of what they produce as far as visually or audio. I think the general takeaway is take some time. You are almost doing a mini-television broadcast, and you wanna be ... I wouldn't say the word "professional", because it's not stuffy, it's fine if you're wearing your tie-dye and your shorts, but you should make it a pleasant experience for the viewers. KEN: Yeah. You should look inviting, and it should look intentional. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: And kept. JAMON: We have some other tips for remote video meetings that, I think, are on a blog post that we created. Was that you, Ken, that wrote that post? KEN: Yeah. We could do a whole podcast, frankly, on how to have a good video meeting. JAMON: We can link to that in the show notes. KEN: We can link to that for now. TODD: That is a podcast I wanna do. I do wanna point out to the audience who can't see us now, we're recording this for your listening pleasure, and I put pleasure in quotation marks 'cause I don't wanna oversell it. But, we are actually on Zoom, so we can see each other. Jamon, thankfully moved his camera so we can't see the horizon any more, which is crooked, but right over his left shoulder is a door-line that's incredibly crooked. I appreciate the effort, Jamon, but come on. Have some dignity. JAMON: I will point out that I'm moving out of this rental in a week because I had a house fire, Todd. (laughter) TODD: Oh, jeez. You can't pull a house fire out every time there's a criticism. KEN: The only thing in my background is my Harvard diploma (laughter) because it's all that anyone cares about. JAMON: Yes, exactly. Over my shoulder, I'm thinking about putting my not-Harvard diploma. KEN: "Narvard". JAMON: It'll just say, "Not Harvard." TODD: Sometimes we just invite Ken's Harvard diploma, instead of Ken, to meetings. (laughter) KEN: Yeah, I just put it in frame and then I walk out. (laughter) I'm like, "I'm just the janitor." CHRIS: I do have one final question, as we bring this episode to a close: Is there any tool that you use outside of remote work or in your daily life that you wish existed as a remote tool. KEN: Blow torch. (laughter) CHRIS: Elon's got that for ya. TODD: Not a tool, completely, but here's something ... I have ideas for tools that'd be cool in the future. We have the concept of "kitchen table". This is a real quick story; please, bear with me. The three of us ... I don't know if Ken was, but there was multiple of us of the company who were speaking at a conference in Paris. We rented a large Airbnb apartment in Paris, and a bunch of us were staying there. It had a very large kitchen table. When we weren't doing stuff individually, we'd all sit around the kitchen table, and we'd work together. We would just sit there, like you would at a library in a university or something like that, and work. We wanted to recreate that in ... virtually. The simple solution is we dedicated one of our Zoom rooms, the "Kitchen", to the "kitchen table" and you can't use that for anything else. If you just wanna be around people, but you're working, you're not really saying anything, as if you're in a library ... I guess we should do the library, but whatever ... you'd go in the kitchen table and just be around people. Sometimes people say things and have little conversations, like you would in an office, but typically you're just sitting there working together. That's cool. It's missing a few features which I'd love to see. For one is, if you're not ... Say there was a group of people working in an open office, and they're in the center and you're on the perimeter of the office. You see them working together there, the "kitchen table", now we have that, with our tool, we can see who's in the "kitchen table" and they're there. Great. But you can also, even if you're far away and they're dim enough ... not dim, but the volume's low enough that it's not disturbing, you can still hear them, and sometimes you'll pick up on little words that may interest you. They'll mention a project you're on, or they'll mention a personal interest that you're interested in or whatever, and you can choose then to go walk over and join them, because of that kind of low-noise but informational thing you're getting by being in the perimeter. I would love to somehow integrate that into our tool, where you could have a low-murmur of people in the background of the meetings that you're not in, and listen for things that might be interesting, something like that. KEN: I don't really know how to think about that question. TODD: I find it very interesting that none of us can really come up with a tool that we wish we had. That's a fantastic answer. KEN: I mean ... JAMON: I think there's probably tools that, eventually, we'll get that will be like, "How did we live without this?" But I don't ... I can't think of one. KEN: I can imagine in the future, basically a VR setup. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. KEN: If VR gets to the point where it feels natural; it's comfortable to wear the equipment, it's not a burden just to have the stuff on your head, and the resolution is to the point where you could have a virtual monitor in space, and you can have that feeling of actually being next to people. Then you could, in theory, have the best of both worlds, where you can drop out and leave the space if you want to. You can also be in the space and be available for that. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: I think that would be pretty nice, but ... JAMON: There is a tool out there that's ... I think they're, maybe, in beta right now. It's called Bigscreen VR, it's by a guy that I know, Darshan Shankar, who's on Twitter. I met him on Twitter. He's doing this Bigscreen VR system. It's very much what you described, Ken. Right now, it's only on Windows, and of course the VR headsets are still evolving. But apparently the new Oculus Go or Oculus Now, or something, is apparently quite good -- KEN: Yeah, they're getting better. JAMON: It's also likely, they said that within the next year, that it'll come to Mac 'cause they're working on it. KEN: I think another threshold, though, is the quote-unquote "retina" threshold, to where the resolution of the headsets is such that you can't, in terms of resolution, anyway, you can't tell the difference between that and something that you're looking at. JAMON: Yep. KEN: You could actually make a projected display without any compromise. JAMON: Yes. TODD: I agree, in the future that's gonna be wonderful. I do have some current ideas on how to add spacial stuff to our tools to give us proximity information of each other, virtually. Kind of what you would get if you were in a VR situation, but without having VR. Anyways, there's some interesting things there. KEN: Yeah, we've talked about making an ambient audio device, something like that, that can just sit there and ... Kind of like "kitchen table", but without the video. There's a bunch of things we've talked about, but not of them are things that exist today. They're just things that we've thought about creating or ... yeah.

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, we are talking about clients and some of the assumptions that often need to be challenged when creating software. Throughout the episode, Todd, Ken, and Jamon touch on the importance of knowing who your audience is, what they value, and how your ideas will meet their needs. Show Links Dropzones App Release by Mark Rickert A Dark Room by Amir Rajan Uncommon Sense by Derek Sivers Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: Today we are talking about clients. It's an important topic and one that pretty much every business owner inevitably gets asked a variety of questions. The question that we could start with is: what's your favorite moment in working with clients? JAMON HOLMGREN: You would think it would be when you launch their app or their site, or something like that, but I often find that actually to be a little bit anti-climactic 'cause there's so much going on. There's usually already plans in place for a version 1.1. It's not usually like everybody gather around the big green button and then the founder pushes the button, and it goes live. Although a little side note, Mark Rickert, who is one of our developers has released an app to the app store while in free fall during a skydive. That is true. We can link to it and there's a YouTube video of it. But that's not usually how it works. KEN MILLER: It wasn't a client app I don't think. I think it was one of his apps, but still. JAMON: That was a pretty cool way to do it. But no, you would think that would be the most exciting time. The exciting time is usually during design, for me, because I feel like you start getting a lot of enthusiasm, the energy. A lot of those things start coming out during the design process. And when we get a chance to use our design process—some clients will come to us with something already designed, others will come to us who need design. When they're going through the design process, it's really exciting, you can see a lot of the possibilities. The development side of things is also fun, but a little slower moving. TODD: I agree with Jamon on the design side. Once we get through the product development and start getting into design, probably past the wireframing and into some more concrete examples, it's pretty fun to see the client get really excited. Especially if it's a situation where they show people who are interested in their product, or their stakeholders and investors, or whomever, and they had a good reaction to it. I would add the second most fun time with clients is once there is a beta or an alpha available for their beta testers. And again, they send it to them and they use words like "blown away," or something like, that's awesome. I'm not gonna lie and say, that's always what happens, but those two times I think are the most fun to me. CHRIS: One of the things that Jamon wrote in Slack that was interesting is: what are some common assumptions that clients bring to the process that have to be corrected? TODD: I don't know if there's anything that's common or consistent across clients. There are some things that come up. I would say, depending on the experience level of the client with software product development, we may have a little to a lot of teaching to do. And that's one of the things we like to do is teach. I find it particularly fun when our start-up clients are newer, they're not on their series B or something. Because there is a lot of moments that you can help them and give them kind of golden information. Both from our personal experience running start-ups, but also we work with a lot of start-ups. So we've been through this before. There are some misconceptions about software. Not necessarily from our clients, but from people who weren't a good fit for us. For example, it's very common in the world at large, to believe software is orders of magnitude cheaper than it really is. People also get very used to the quality that they see in apps like Facebook or Gmail, or these kind of things. And they think they can spend less than a car to get those things. When you're in our industry of course, that doesn't seem super logical, but from their perspective it makes sense. An app costs nothing, or $1.99. JAMON: Right. TODD: Or $4.99, so of course something like that seems cheap. What they don't know, of course, is Facebook has tens of thousands of employees. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: And even a smaller app, let's not chose Facebook, which is huge. But like Instagram, for example. And not what it is now, but what it originally was, probably cost half a million to make. JAMON: Yeah, I think I saw that they put $250,000 into their MVP originally. And it's a very simple app when you look at it, compared to a lot of apps out there. I think that's definitely something that, as Todd said, it's not necessarily the clients who end up being good fits for us. But usually we get calls from everybody, all kinds of people. KEN: Well, even those prices are reflective of just how far software has come in terms of developer productivity. JAMON: Right. KEN: Because half a million dollars doesn't even get you a house in the Bay area. And the people building your house, most of them are being paid 20, 30, 40 dollars an hour and not $200 an hour, or $100 an hour. The Bay area is full of software engineers being paid $150,000 a year and up, many that are way higher than that. And you can still build software for half a million dollars, which is actually is pretty impressive when you think about that in terms of it's inputs. JAMON: Another interesting thing that the clients don't necessarily realize when they come to us is the impact that the design process can have on their product. Usually you're thinking of design as making it look pretty, making it look nice. But there's a whole lot more that goes into that. The visual design aspect of design is usually, maybe, the last 30%, something like that. It's not the bulk of the design work. But there's a lot of value that can be added there. You can avoid expensive mistakes during design by spending the time upfront to really learn as much as you can about your core customers and the features that are necessary. Because software is expensive, so you wanna build as little of it as possible until you really know the direction that you need to go. TODD: Yeah, and I wanna be clear. You can make, for instance, a mobile app for $100,000 to $200,000. It's not a half a million. But something that's larger could be millions as well. Just wanna make that note on that price there. JAMON: I think another misconception that some clients might have when they come into it, is they don't understand necessarily all of the breadth of things that need to happen to make an app. We've had people come to us and want to build an app, but they don't necessarily realize that they also need a server and they need some sort of cloud connectivity. They might need offline support. They might need access to certain APIs for GPS or whatever. And beyond that, how to get through the app store. And how to get through Google Play. What is a compelling app store listing? What does that look like? You know, what screenshots are important? And one of the most successful apps that I've ever been involved with, which is called A Dark Room by my friend Amir Rajan, he actually only has one screenshot on the app store, and it's a very uninspiring one. But he has millions of downloads. It's just, he hit it right on the head. TODD: You know which store is incredibly hard to get through? IKEA. (laughter) Just saying. KEN: It's true. TODD: We've mentioned before in this podcast, but it's worth repeating, design is not how things look. Design is how things work. And through the very first part of our design process is product discovery. And that's even before how things work. That's what product is you want to make at all. Since we work with a lot of start-ups, we also sometimes coach them, if they need it on coming up with a customer acquisition plan and a revenue plan, which their investors, prospective investors that they pitch to, will definitely ask them about, having pitched to them myself. So design is very important and it's also one of the most difficult things that we mentioned in a previous podcast was getting from zero to one. Product discovery and design really help our clients get from zero to one. JAMON: And they're starting a business, you know, it's not just building an app. They're starting a business, or they're continuing a business that they already have. And there's a lot that goes into building a business for sure. I think that's one of the things that, maybe some friends of mine who might message me and say, "hey Jamon, I've got this app idea, it's a billion dollar idea." (laughter) "Promise not to go off and rip me off. I wanna tell you it." And it's fine, you know, the ideas are a very necessary part of this, they're a spark. They're really important. But the execution side of things involves designing and building the app, which we can do. We're really great at it, we've done it a lot of times. But also, the business side of things. There's no one right answer to how to build a business. You can see that with many different business models. And that's the tough part. Now, it can be very rewarding though, the whole journey and it's been really fun to watch our clients build business models that are sustainable and come back as they grow, as they succeed, they find new opportunities and they come back to us and say, "hey Infinite Red, we need some new features. We need a new app. We need to rebuild the app for maybe a different purpose." Those things are very fun to see. TODD: Ken, you had a great thing about ideas, when people have an idea for a business. You've talked about a lot and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. KEN: Oh, and how they're not usually worth the paper that they're written on. (laughter) TODD: Yes. KEN: Where this came from was that, like back in the days of the dotcom boom, when everybody and their brother had some amazing idea. I would be at a social dinner with somebody and they would be like, they'd whip out an NDA and be like, I wanna talk to you about this idea I have and I need you to sign this NDA. And I'm like, "No. I'm not gonna sign your NDA." Ideas, per se, are not worth very much. Right? A high level idea, per se, is not worth very much. Like my idea's like, "hey, I have an amazing idea. What if you took a car, then you made it fly?" Right? And people will be like, "that's an amazing idea." Now, how are you actually gonna do that? And so it's kinda like, just because I have this amazing idea, "oh what if you made cars fly," doesn't mean that when somebody goes and actually makes cars fly that I have any right to that idea. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: Right? Because the high level idea by itself, although cool, doesn't actually get you there. It's the millions and millions of other good ideas that follow that, that really make something work. Jamon, do you wanna tell the dating with music, I could tell you wanna tell the dating with music story. JAMON: That's exactly what I was gonna interject. So Derek Sivers, who founded CD Baby, he has a YouTube video, it's very short. We can link to it in the show notes. Essentially it's talking about ideas versus execution. And the general premise is sort of this, that he met with a friend of a friend, and they were having lunch. And this guy had this billion dollar idea. And he says, okay, what's this great idea that you have? And the guy kind of leans over, very intense, and says, dating with music. (laughter) And Derek's like, is there anything else? (laughter) Is this ... He's like, no, dating with music dude. And it was ... he's like, okay, this idea is worth maybe the price of a lunch. Right? Like, the execution of it is the multiplier, you know, you can have a multiplier ... a great idea, not execute it at all, is really not worth much. A bad idea, executed really well is also not worth all that much. But a really good idea executed really well, is a multiplier that becomes your billion dollar idea. I don't think it necessarily tells the whole story, you know, that particular anecdote because there's also timing and other things like that. KEN: Well and that idea isn't even a multiplier idea. That's like a hint at a maybe multiplier idea. Right? JAMON: Yes. TODD: He was just being nice to the guy. KEN: He was being nice, right. So it's kind of like, when I say there's a chain of ideas, the first germ of the idea is the kind of idea that someone might get when high. Kind of like, "hey man, what if it was like dating, but with music. Yeah." (laughter) Right? That's exactly a high person's idea. I would almost bet money that that was a high idea. But anyway. The next thing is like, oh well you get people to put in their music that they like and we match people up. That's starting to be an actual idea. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Right? That's starting to be like, what's the actual hook. And even that, there's still, like well how does it work? What's the UX? What's the viral engine around that? JAMON: Yeah. KEN: It's not just programming. Like, we're all programmers historically, so we're gonna tend to see all of the stuff that's gonna go behind that. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: Really, it's the product development of design that, or really, what's important. And a lot of the details that matter, are sometimes the ones that are not obviously to your competitors. TODD: Almost always. KEN: Almost always. So this idea that your super secret idea is gonna make everything work is, frankly, BS. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: You have to keep having those good ideas over and over and over again. Every techy who's been in Silicon Valley, or a similar environment, and around the sorts of people who have these sorts of ideas, every single one has a story of being approached by somebody who's saying, "hey I've got this great idea. I'm gonna get you in on the ground floor with it. But I just need somebody to make it." JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: And we'll split it 50/50. Young techies fall for this. Very quickly you learn, uh, no. You'd better have a lot more than that for that to be a 50/50 bargain. TODD: I'm not even joking when I say that in San Francisco at least 50% of your Uber drivers will pitch an idea to you on your ride. JAMON: We got pitched in an Uber, us three. We were in an Uber not that long ago and we got pitched on an idea. And I think that it's kind of interesting because the apps that do tend to be more successful that we're involved with, they're often not big ideas. They're good ideas, they're not like huge ideas. They're existing companies that have a need that their customer base has kind of expressed, they can see it's fairly obvious. And they come to us and they say, hey we need really good execution. And that's what we're good at. They've identified the need. Have a lot of the infrastructure already in place. They already know how they're gonna monetize it. They already know how it's gonna impact their business. They just need a really great app. And that's where we really plug in. Now it has been kind of interesting to watch start-ups where they don't have that in place and how they develop that. And where they go with that. It's much more risky. A lot of them do fail. And one of the things that I've heard from some of those clients sometimes is, "Jamon, why aren't you so excited about my idea?" Now I'm not trying not to come across excited, I am excited about their idea. It's just that I've seen so many of these where there's certain other parts of the business that they lack. From my standpoint, if I was in the business of picking winners and losers, I'd probably be doing my own start-up, right? But, honestly, there's a lot of moving parts. There's a lot of variables. And not all of them are in your control. So I think it's been really cool to see the ones that do succeed. See how they piece it all together. I have a lot of respect for them, it's a difficult thing, but it's very rewarding. And then, of course, the companies that come in, like, we just started a project recently, this week actually I think. And they are an established company, they have a very big user base. A lot of people have heard of them, but they need a much better app. And they need a better app experience. And that's really where you see the clients that really shine. KEN: There may be a few people listening who are kind of mentally going like, "hmm, is that me?" What I would say is, if you think it's you, it might be. (laughter) If you wanna know, like I wanna do this thing. And I don't program and I'm not a designer, like, I don't know how to make these things and I don't really wanna be that person. If the idea isn't what's important, then what is important? What do I bring to the table that is gonna help me succeed and help a company like Infinite Red, or even just an individual programmer who I happen to find? What am I bringing to the table that will help beyond the big idea? And there's really two things. And they're big ones. And you need at least one. And preferably two. And one is, access to capital. Not just building this, not just paying us to build this. But all the marketing and everything else. Right? You're gonna need money. And you're not gonna want to be in a position where when you run out, it just dies. You need to have a plan for that. That's number one. Number two, is access to audience. If you have one of those, in good form, then you can usually get the other one. Having both is ideal. But those are the two things, those are the things that the makers that you're coming to work with, don't necessarily have. And so, if you wanna know what you can be busting your hump to be doing right now, it's getting those things. And then, if you have those and you come to somebody with your big idea and you want them to turn it into something real, you actually have something to offer. JAMON: One of the things that I think Ken and Todd bring to this conversation that I don't necessarily bring to the conversation is I haven't been on the other side. I've been a consultant for a very long time, so I see our side of it. But both Ken and Todd have worked for start-ups, probably who have used consultants. And seen the ones that have succeeded. Ken you worked at Yammer and there was an acquisition that Microsoft made there. And so it was a successful exit. And then of course there are some other start-ups that you and Todd have worked at that failed. That's something that I, maybe, don't necessarily bring that perspective to. But the consultant's side of it for sure, I see all kinds. I see all kinds of start-ups that rise and fall. TODD: I hope no one takes this as a reason not to try, for sure. I would recommend to focus on your customer acquisition strategy and your revenue strategy. You have to remember Zappos when it came out, and if you're not familiar with Zappos, it was a large company and eventually hired by Amazon, and they sell shoes. KEN: Acquired, not hired. TODD: Sorry, acquired, not hired. They sell shoes, which is probably the second oldest profession in the world. (laughter) So, obviously not a new idea. Hey, I have an idea, I'm gonna sell shoes. And you're like, horse shoes? Space shoes? No, shoes, like you put on your feet. But they had some innovation ideas inside there. Mainly extreme customer sport, and the big one was, buy five pair of shoes, send back four. Good ideas, but once again, there's a series of little ideas, like how do we allow them to buy five pairs of shoes and send back four and still make money? There's a hundred and fifty ideas in there, maybe a thousand ideas in there that matter. So it's hard to be an A-list actor, right? But if no one tried, we'd have none. So you can succeed. We get a lot of clients and sometimes their very obvious that they'll see just because they have a lot of experience or they just really understand. But we have people who don't know what they don't know. And don't know what they know yet, and that's fine too. Those people may succeed also. KEN: The number one problem that we see is under capitalization. Over capitalization can be a problem too, incidentally. If you raise too much money all at once then it can lead you to be too profligate. I've definitely seen that at start-ups. JAMON: It's way harder to say no. KEN: Yeah, that's a problem with venture capital backed companies that have just seen a bunch of interest all at once and then they have issues with that. But, under capitalization is definitely a much bigger problem because it means that every single decision you make, you're terrified. TODD: If your problem is over capitalization, please send an email to hello@infinite.red. KEN: We can help you with that problem. TODD: Today's episode is brought to you by, too much money. KEN: I'm actually being serious. (laughter) I mean, we're joking. But I'm also serious. Like, we actually know how to make your money go farther. JAMON: Yeah, and I agree with that. And we can also help with saying no. I think that that's actually one of the things that's probably surprising about working with us, is often we are pushing for not adding features. TODD: This is sounding like a commercial this time. KEN: Yeah, I'm sorry, but we're not the only ones. I'm just saying that experienced people will tell you no. And you need that if you've got a lot of money. JAMON: I think that's an important port, you look at some consultants and their not necessarily pulling in that direction, but we want people to succeed 'cause obviously that looks good on a portfolio. It's a benefit to us. One of the things we've always said, and we tell customers this, if we finish your project early, and don't spend all of your money, I'm sure you're gonna come up with more ideas. You know? It's not like we're gonna miss out. It's never been the case. If we finish a project early, the founders aren't just pocketing the rest of the money and going home. What they're gonna do is say, what about 1.1, let's get on the schedule. Let's move. There's always something else. 'Cause during the process of building an app you learn so much. And there's always more ideas. KEN: I've never seen a software project where at the end people were like, phew, I'm sure glad that everything that we could possibly think of was in that. (laughter) Like, that has never ever, ever, happened. TODD: You never know. There was that app where you just said "Yo" to people. Yo. JAMON: Yeah, didn't they raise a whole bunch of money to add more stuff? KEN: And what happened to that app? TODD: I don't wanna rant about VC. Some VC's ... not all. Some are great. Another thing, going back to your original question Chris, which we've been talking a lot about, is, common things that customers or clients may not understand. Another one is just the pure complexity of software. It's hard to understand because it's not in the real world. You can't hold it. In your house, if you ever owned a house and had work done on the house, you'll know that doing something in your living room is relatively cheap. Doing something in your bathroom is extremely expensive. Doing something in your kitchen is extremely expensive. The reason why a tiny room like the bathroom is so much more expensive than a huge room, say like, your living room. Is because the bathroom has tons of different contraptions in it. Lots of different moving parts. Lots of different things can go wrong, from your sinks to your plumbing, fans, lighting, that kind of stuff. So the number of pieces matters a lot to cost. Because software is virtual and because we can fairly easily throw on pieces. Software tends to be an order of magnitude, or more, complex than any other physical machine. A bathroom, even a car engine, is less complex than software is. KEN: It's compensated for somewhat by the fact that our tools are also more powerful. TODD: Yes. KEN: I mean, there's countervailing things there, but your point about the complexity is right. If you run out of lot when you're building a house, then your contractor says, hey we can't build there, your lot ends there. There's no such constraints for software and that makes it easy for things to get kind of hairy. TODD: If you completely disregard our part in the complexity, meaning we have to build all the moving pieces and test them and make sure that they coordinate together. Even disregarding that, sometimes people are shocked at how much they have to think about, and they're not building it all. If you just said, I wanna login screen, for example. Every app has that. That's simple. Right? The number of questions that you could be asked by someone like us, to someone who's less experienced will be shocking. And they won't have the answers to it. And each one could be thought of. Now of course we always give people common things that they should do, or whatever. But if you were to really think through the whole thing, just that one screen is way more complex than anyone imagines. JAMON: Recognizing our experience, the fact that we've done hundreds of apps and encountered so many different scenarios, I think is important for working with a company like ours. I think back, in prior years, there have been some projects that haven't gone as well. And one of the common traits of those projects is that the person I'm working with, they feel like they kind of know it all, because they do have a pretty big picture of it, and they want to put their vision down into software. It often comes with blind spots of, what are you missing here? So having a high degree of trust and communication between the two parties is one of the hallmarks of a successful project. We certainly respect what the founders bring because they have the vision, a lot of the times they have a much closer relationship with their potential users than we do. KEN: Absolutely. JAMON: We're not trying to impose our view of what that might be. But we can often bring things, like Todd was saying about the login screen. Like, you didn't think of this aspect like what happens if you forget your password, or if you don't have access to your email or something. TODD: Or you're on a plane, or Facebook changed the rules and half the users can't login. That kind of stuff. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: Another thing too, is we sometimes experience this when we get designs outside of our company. Now, a lot of designers are great, but they're never have been trained in, or have experience in software design. Our designers are classically trained designers. They can do all the normal things people think of designs, but they chose to specialize in software and website design. So, sometimes when we get an outside design, we never used to do this, but we kind of now require it. The bare minimum is we'll do a half week of design review. And we did one recently. And from a cursory look at their design, it looked like they had everything. Looked good, seemed to make sense. The design looked fine. But after a half week of a couple of our designers reviewing it, they went through in great detail and produced a map of the whole app and how everything interacts with each other. And the flows and the different actors, different type of users. That kind of stuff. JAMON: There were dozens of screens, right Todd? Like dozens. TODD: There were a lot of screens, and probably half of them weren't in the original design at all. JAMON: It was striking 'cause you could see the outline of the screen, it was empty and there's a title of whatever that screen was supposed to be. TODD: So that's an example of, even at the design part, where you have to factor in all these different scenarios that you may not have thought about. And how the user would experience it if those scenarios happen. And also make a business decision whether or not you're gonna address some of those scenarios. Sometimes you don't because it's a very small minority of your users, edge case as we call it. And it's just not worth ... the ROI and something like that would be poor. So that's something too, where it's just half the app is really missing. JAMON: And that's where, I think having that high degree of trust is really important because then our spidery senses are saying, hey, there's something missing here. Let's spend the time up front, I know you wanna get started right now, but let's spend the time up front to map this out and see if everything is here. CHRIS: I'm actually curious when someone comes to you with an idea, how do you know when to start challenging the idea? And when to write the idea off? KEN: I wouldn't say that there's very many ideas that we would write off. Because lord knows if we knew which ideas were going to succeed in this business, we would be billionaires already. And frankly, the people who are billionaires don't even necessarily know. There is a healthy degree of luck in terms of like, who ends up on which gravy train. But, that said, there's always gonna be a variety of factors that go into whether something is successful. Some of them are universal. And some of them are highly specific. And it's a little bit of a judgment call on which is which, however. We think that things like software quality and good UX, these sorts of things, are basically universal. Like that humans are humans. In those regards, we are going to push for what we think is right. When it comes to the intimate understanding of the customer, the end customer, right, the people that these start-ups are trying to attract. That's where we defer to them. We're always looking for clients who clearly have that intimate understanding of their customer. And this sort of leads into another point, which is that, someone on their team, whether it's the founder, if they're the only ones. Or someone on their team, had better really have that intimate knowledge. And they're gonna have a full time job working with us. Basically. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Right? And that's also something that I think people have not understood. It's kinda like, hey, here you go make the software and I will dip in periodically. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Uh-uh (negative). No. Yeah, you gotta be really committed because you're the one who really understands that like, so we're gonna be working with you to go after this. And we need you, obviously. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Not just to write the checks, but also to tell us who this person is and what they're really gonna need. And sometimes our idea of a universal solution won't work for something specific. But that tension is really important. We're always fighting for those sort of universal values, but we're also listening to hear what specific values are and the ways that they might override universal value. TODD: Yeah, and there's not one right answer and one right design to solve any particular problem. I would pile on with Ken, the people coming to us, the founders or the department heads or whomever they are, coming to us. They really wanna understand the end user and be able to articulate that to us. And over time we learn them too. And some industries have very strong cultures that you have to be within, and if you don't speak that cultural language it instantly turns off those people. It's not just culture, but for example, we did a project for a company called PRO-TREAD, which does training for truckers. I don't know if they're the largest, but if they're not, they're probably closest to the largest in the country. And this traditionally was done if you had a trucking company, you would set up computers in the corner and then when that driver was by their home base, they would sit at that boring computer and do the forced training that they're required to do by law. Not fun. No one wants to do it. The people at the company don't wanna pay for it. Truck drivers don't wanna do it. Of course it does increase safety and stuff, so it's important to do, but it's just human nature not wanna do something that's, you know. JAMON: And I believe, Todd, that PRO-TREAD was one of the first to even computerize it. Before that is was paper tests and in classrooms. So they were kind of moving that direction already. Now this was another iteration of their platform. TODD: Correct. And this is a great example of an idea because it's simple, everyone understands it and it's obvious. Truck drivers spend a lot of time in the sleeper cabs of their trucks. At truck stops and whatnot on the side of the road and stuff. So, obviously making the training mobile was important because the training materials being on a tablet or an iPad was important. Making it not so painful for the person, so that it's not ... If you're the manager telling the drivers that they have to take this testing, getting 50% less push back because it's not as painful is a big deal to you. And also, they do need to not just get through the training material, they do need to understand it and internalize it. It actually does help, even though no one wants to do it. So the basic requirements was, it has to be mobile, it has to work inside of a sleeper cab on the side of I-80. And it still needs to maintain their already high level of guaranteeing that people actually pick up the information, and they had a variety of ways to make sure that happened. And also, be more engaging and not as painful. That was the directive to our designers. JAMON: I believe that when they first came to us they sort of envisioned the app looking basically like their web version and no real changes other than that. And we talked to them, this was a situation where we had a great rapport with the owner of PRO-TREAD and we're able to talk with him and explain where design could really add a lot of value to a touch interface. TODD: Yeah, so we actually did re-design it, not just to make it more mobile appropriate, let's say. But to really push those goals they had. Now, designers and us and them now understood the goals. I just stated them. Fairly straight forward, the goals. However, we can take those goals and we can design to those goals for sure, but we probably don't know truck drivers as well as our client PRO-TREAD does. So them having been in this industry for a very long time, really understood the nuances that would make meeting these goals through design possible. Having them really understand their users, having us really understand how to solve problems. Us having the problems be both simple, straightforward and well defined, that was a successful project and although maybe not as exciting as Uber for gerbils. Because gerbils have to get around too, and no one likes to walk. JAMON: Well gerbils do, actually, don't they? TODD: They kind of do, yeah. And they like tubes. So maybe be like Elon Musk's ... JAMON: Hyper loop. TODD: The hyper loop for gerbils. JAMON: For gerbils. TODD: Yeah, so that's a very exciting, so if we had a client came and said we want a hyper loop for gerbils and we respond, "of course. Who doesn't?" But it's just funny, but teaching truck drivers important lessons is more fulfilling when you know, when it rolls out, there's gonna be tons of men and women out there on the road having a slightly less painful day because of something worked on. And probably saving some lives. It's not as sexy, but it is very satisfying in my opinion. JAMON: Yeah, I totally agree. I actually have five uncles who are truck drivers. Very strong truck driving kind of familial influence. And maybe one or two of them might actually listen to my podcast here. So, hi uncles. (laughter) But what I think is kind of cool about this is I do know truck drivers. I didn't get a chance to work on that project myself, but there's totally a personal connection there. I understand what they go through and the types of things that they care about. TODD: I only have one brother and he owns a shipping company and he has lots of truck drivers, so I'm going to trump your four uncles. (laughter) JAMON: Let's have them fight. They're all six foot four. TODD: Although in the past he did drive, so, but anyways. Yeah. Ken, how about you buddy? JAMON: Any truck drivers there at Harvard? TODD: Aww, pick on the Harvard kid. KEN: No, I don't know any truck drivers. (laughter) You got me. TODD: Today, brought to you buy Captain Obvious. You can cut that, that was a bad joke.

We are discussing all of the considerations that go into hiring and maximizing your team: from culture fit and making sure that people are enjoying their work, to what it means to be a leader and why the best leaders bring out the best in each person, not for the sake of the company, but for the betterment of their lives. Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: Where do you start this process of hiring and maximizing your team? TODD WERTH: Hello, Chris. This is Todd, CEO and founder of Infinite Red, for those who don't recognize my voice. It's a super important question. We run the company as a Council of Elders. The three founders all have equal power and equal responsibilities, but we all choose various parts of the company that we focus on. And one of my main focuses is the team, so this topic's very interesting to me. I would start out defining our opinions on what different roles of management, leadership, coaching are, so people have kind of a frame reference. There is management, but that's a purely logistical thing. For example, we're a consulting company, and we have a lot of projects, usually six to eight projects going on at once. And we have to schedule those. So, that means putting blocks into holes on the schedule, figuring out resources, that kind of stuff. That is management. There's no real leadership going on there. There's certainly no coaching. I mean, there's some, of course; it's not a perfect science. But those kind of tasks are management, in my opinion. We manage what's necessary, but we don't manage what's not necessary to manage or what would be better served by being a coach, to use a sports analogy, or being a leader. That's kind of the primary thing. We can talk about later what bad leaders do. One of the things they do—just to highlight what I just said—is they only manage; they never lead, and they never coach. And then we have leadership and coaching. Could be the same thing, but I'm gonna break those up just a little bit. A coach's job is to find the best teammates that they can at the time with the resources that they have, and put people in the jobs that they're best at and maximize those people. Coaches don't say things like, "All players suck. I'm losing because you can't find good players," because it's literally their job to find those players and to maximize them and to put them in the best spot possible. That's what I consider coaching. Leadership is everything else. Leadership is you're leading, and you're guiding people to where they'll be most effective. You're guiding people through problems. You're the first one on the battlefield, in my opinion, and you're the last one on the battlefield. You lead by example. It's everything else that goes in, all the soft skills of helping a group of people accomplish tasks and goals. JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah, thanks, Todd. This is Jamon, founder and COO of Infinite Red. I think one of the key aspects of maximizing your team comes down to trusting them and providing the right level of support. So, a lot of companies will put in place restrictive policies that are more along the lines of trying to kind of shoehorn their employees into behavior that they want to see. And we take a very different approach here. We're very resistant to putting in place policies. We may give some guidelines that are more along the lines of ideas of how you might approach something, but we rely more on trusting them to make the right call, and if they don't make the right call, to respond the right way. And we can provide support for them if they need help, if they need encouragement, if they need course correction, whatever, we can do that in a supportive way and not so much in a management way. And that's what Todd's talking about when he's talking about the leadership. But, yeah, it's about trusting your team. And it's about putting them in places where they can succeed and not putting them in places where they're not well suited, finding the right path for them. You can put someone in place as, let's say, a programmer. And if they're struggling, you can just sort of like flog them. You know, not literally, but just sort of put a bunch of pressure on them to get their job done faster. And that's how a lot of bad leaders approach maximizing their team. From our standpoint, it's a very different approach. It's more of an open approach. It's about trying to find what they're really good at, and then letting them go, letting them do their thing. There are many examples within Infinite Red, which we can talk about, where people have taken the initiative and done things that are outside of their normal job description, but which they're interested in and which they're good at. And that is more where we see the maximization of the talent that we have. CHRIS: How do you hire for culture fit within Infinite Red? KEN MILLER: Ken Miller, CTO and founder. I would say the easiest way is always a referral. Always, right? I bet everybody's gonna tell you that. The hardest, almost impossible way, is just an interview of somebody off the street. One thing we've kind of done that's sort of in between is we've hired freelancers. So, from time to time, we have more work than our core team can handle, and we'll bring on a freelancer or two. And on a couple of different occasions, we've liked them so much we're like, "Hey, do you want a job?" And that's worked pretty well. TODD: It's actually pretty difficult to hire for anything, much less culture fit. I am still dubious that getting a bunch of resumes, doing interviews, and choosing one of those people is any better than randomly picking someone. I'm sure people have done studies, and it's probably better, but sometimes it doesn't feel like it's better. What we are particularly good at is we have a strong culture, and we have a strong idea of what our culture is. And we have a strong idea on what attributes that our people to have. We let a lot of our team interview. For instance, Chris here, when he was interviewed ... I don't know how many interviews he had, but it's probably like 10. We let anyone on our team -- and we're a team of 26 people -- interview everyone if they want to. We try to get a lot of people to interview them. Different people are looking for different things. For example, I am solely looking for culture fit. I assume that the people that came before me, like Jamon or Ken, if it's a technical position, already interviewed them for technical stuff. I assume by the time it gets to me that they're qualified for the job. So, I really just chitchat with them and try to see if they're a cultural fit. JAMON: Yeah, and one of the dangers with trying to hire specifically only for culture fit is that you can end up with a monoculture, and that can be a problem. And so that's something that we watch for. When Todd's talking about cultural fit, it's very much more about specific values that are kindness and helpfulness and things like that that are more about humanity and the type of person that they are, more so than maybe a specific culture, and I think that term probably needs to be defined a little better as we go through here. KEN: No rock stars. JAMON: That's right. TODD: Or ninjas or unicorns. KEN: No, yeah. No rock stars or ninjas. CHRIS: What about gurus? TODD: No gurus. KEN: Well, we'd have to see about a guru. I don't know, we'll see. TODD: Yeah, so just real quick, our main cultural fits, the soft stuff, is supportive, kindness. I would say even creative would be one of mine now. JAMON: Absolutely. It doesn't matter whether they're a technical person or not, creative is absolutely one of our values ... Todd, you've talked about ... What was that that you sometimes say about creativity? TODD: I do believe very strongly that the company and day-to-day work life should be fun, and as little stress as possible. And the reason I say that is the most creative and the best work comes out when you're having fun. Like, I like to joke around a lot. People sometimes say, "This is more of a serious matter, don't joke." I don't agree. If someone's doing brain surgery on me, the doctor, I want him to be having a great day, feeling good, making bad, inappropriate jokes about my tiny brain, that kind of stuff. Because you know what, when you're in that mood and you're having fun and you're in that mode, you do your best work. I can think of almost no place where that's not true. I don't know if that's what you're talking about, Jamon, but when you're having fun, you're being creative. When you're being creative, you're solving problems with more than just pure nose against the grindstone. JAMON: Yeah. And some of the other attributes that we evaluate on are productivity, leadership, being pleasant, being a good communicator; those are all soft skills. And it's kind of interesting because I sometimes get questions on Twitter, "What do you look for in a developer?" And my answers are usually probably more soft skill than people would expect. I'm not necessarily looking for hard technical skills. That's not what we value as much. KEN: It's always been very important to me that we make the work fun, that we find people that enjoy what they do, find as many as ways as possible to make them juggle. It's not always possible. Different clients are going to be different ways. Different projects are gonna be different ways, but as much as possible make the actual work fun as opposed to, what a lot of startups I've seen do, which is a lot of booze and free food to numb the pain of the work that you're doing. That's a very, very, very strongly held view for me. TODD: It only takes about a week to build culture at a company because that's how long it takes to get the ping pong table delivered. (laughter) KEN: And we have to deliver a ping pong table to every single employee's wing and we have this elaborate system for simulating the trajectory of the ping pong so you like hit the ping pong ball and you kind of measure where it went- JAMON: That's what we spend our time on. KEN: You have somebody send you the ... That's a lot of work. TODD: That's a typical startup. JAMON: We put together a presentation for a change in some of our strategy and showed it to the team when we're all together in one location last fall. And one of the things we had was this sort of like seven points that we were looking for, and I actually pulled it up on my computer so I can remember what they were. It's creativity, productivity, quality of work, communication skills, being a pleasure to work with, consistency, and leadership. Now not everybody is great at all those things obviously. Some people are more strong in the communication side of things. Some are more productive. Some are really, really great at quality. It's a mixture of those things that makes Infinite Red. But that's what Todd's really talking about when he's saying that he optimizes for the culture fit, what he looks for, the things that they do well. And all the technical stuff, I mean, it's important but people can learn the technical side of things. KEN: The reason that we don't focus as much on raw technical skills ... I wouldn't agree at all that we don't focus on it. We definitely want people who can do hard things. It's just that the world of software development began its life in a world where humans had to contort themselves into the world of the machine very heavily. You had to really, really intimately know how the machine worked, and that was a pretty rare skill; people who could kind of form the mental model that they needed to in order to work on these old machines. Steadily, over the decades, the slider between the machine and the human has gotten closer and closer and closer to the human side where your job is not as much to mind meld with the machine, it's to really to intimately understand the human's problem and translate it into the high level languages that we use now for the kind of software that we do, application-level software. Like, we're not writing operating systems or databases. We're not writing Google-scale, massive data-crunching applications, that kind of thing. For things where the human factors even all the way down to the technical level are the most important. So like manageability, that's a human factor even though it's highly technical. Having people with the soft and social skills who can also think in the abstract where you need to to be a programmer or in the way that you need to be a designer as well in this sort of breaking problems down in your mind. We've seen many more project go awry because of soft skills than because of hard skills. JAMON: Yeah, I agree with that. There's a line at which, of course, all of our people have to be competent in their jobs, whether technically on the engineering side or on the designer side. TODD: Yeah, I think it's a lot easier to test if someone who you are looking at to be on your team, whether they have technical skills, it's a lot easier to look at someone's portfolio and see that they're a great artist on the design side. These kind of real, tangible things. The reason we're not talking about it as much is not because it's not important or that we don't have these great skilled people, because we do, it's just a lot easier to determine that part. And by time, it gets to us determining if they're in our culture, we've already assessed that they have these skills. I feel like that doesn't give us a competitive advantage to figure out the easy things that everyone can figure out. So I don't want to give the impression that we just don't care about them, we totally do. The soft skills or the cultural fit is where I think you can have a competitive advantage and where you can as a coach part of your job, select the best players for your particular team. It's a sports analogy. I don't know why I'm using all these sports analogies. I'm not even a sports person. (laughter) JAMON: The truth is that as far as hiring is concerned, I wouldn't say that we're necessarily great at it. And that's not to say that we've hired a bunch of people that aren't good, they're really great. I think in some ways maybe that reflects more of our ability to intuit what will work well and what doesn't. But I think that you get good at something by doing it a lot. And we haven't actually hired a ton. We've purposely have kept the team small. KEN: I don't know if there's a sweet spot some place. I feel like being very small it's harder to do hiring because as Jamon says you don't get a lot of practice. Being large, I think it's also hard to do hiring because you have to have so many layers of filters that you get lots of false negatives and false positives just by virtue of the scale. But like, I wanna believe that there's this place in the middle, but I don't even know if I believe that. Hiring is just hard. There's no silver bullet. JAMON: There's also the turnover is a factor in this too. And we really don't have turnover. Pretty much everybody that we started from 2015 has stuck around until today and that's something that we're very proud of. That may change at one point, but we're very proud of that fact. It does mean that we don't hire to replace, like we haven't. And we only hire to grow and we're growing very slowly. CHRIS: Jamon, that brings up a really interesting point in which, when Infinite Red merged from two separate companies into what it is today, there were two different cultures where, as a team, you had to learn new personalities and learn how to work with new people so how did that change this dynamic? JAMON: Yeah, from my perspective, it was ... It actually kinda floors me how well it went considering what we had to deal with. At ClearSight, we were a ... That was my previous company that I started in 2005. We had a long history, so some people had worked with me for a very long time. I mean, I hired everybody as a brand new junior. I mean, I didn't hire hardly anybody who had experience. We were not remote as we discussed in our previous episode. We were not remote at the time. And we had a different business model the way that we worked at ClearSight versus Infinite Red, LLC, which was Todd and Ken's company at the time, they were very senior-heavy. They had all seniors. In fact, I think almost everybody at Infinite Red, LLC was older than me, and I was the oldest person at ClearSight. So that was an interesting aspect. TODD: There was a lot of Metamucil at Infinite Red. (laughter) CHRIS: This episode of Building Infinite Red is brought to you by Metamucil. Get your fiber in today. (laughter) KEN: You have to keep that in. JAMON: Yes. So that was an interesting aspect because it was very different. We were in Vancouver, Washington area most of us and they were down in the bay area, a little different style there. It was just different vibe in the two companies, but it went really well, and that's something I think we should talk about. TODD: I'll not paint as a rosy picture as Jamon did. It did end up very well through a whole lot of effort and going forward. I do want to interject real quick on the last thing. One of the qualities we look for, and it also plays into Jamon's comment about monoculture, I consider us a little band of misfits, and that's on purpose. And we're misfits in a variety of different ways all over the spectrum. I won't go into different ones, but we have a wide variety of misfits, and I think that's a very important part of our culture, which I enjoy very much. KEN: We're the island of misfit toys. TODD: Correct, except for we're not toys and we're not ... KEN: Yeah, there's no island and we're not toys, but otherwise, we're a totally the island of misfit toys. TODD: Exactly. CHRIS: This episode brought to you by competing metaphors. Metaphors; the things that we compete against. (laughter) TODD: Yeah, the culture was quite a bit different. We put a lot of effort and this is a team effort as well as a leadership effort for sure, and it took a while, but the end results I do agree with Jamon, it came out really well. Obviously, we didn't have anyone quit, which is fantastic, which is a major accomplishment. And, of course, the two cultures changed each other, and we came out as a third culture. JAMON: Yeah, totally. TODD: Which was very hard, but very exciting. KEN: One of the things that happened when we merged was Vancouver, Washington is for the Pacific Northwest anyway, a relatively kind of conservative area. And obviously, we were here in the Bay Area, which is not a conservative area, and we were a little worried about that. Like we were a little concerned like, "How's that gonna play out?" JAMON: Especially during the time that it was, 2015, all of the stuff that was happening back then. KEN: Yeah, and I think that we managed it pretty well in the sense that I think we set standards for how you interact with your colleagues. We created special Slack rooms. People wanted to argue about politics, they can go and argue about politics in certain places and it was pretty much banned anywhere else, saying like, "You know, if you want to talk about these hot button topics, that's fine. Here's the ground rules, right? Like, you're always respectful, and you do it over there where people who don't want to have to interact with that don't." And that's worked pretty well. I don't go to those channels, and I don't really see it come up very much. And people generally ... Like, we will see people who we know have completely different viewpoints working together great and having a great working relationship and having mutual respect, and that is sort of the core value that we brought to that. And I think that's also the core anecdote to any of the monoculture concerns if you set the grounds rules that like, "Hey, you can disagree, but like this is how you can disagree. When you're at work, this is the way you that can disagree." Part of the reason we wanna grow slowly is so that as people come in with their different perspectives, which we really value and we want people to be able to share their perspectives, they abide by these rules about how we get along and make something together. CHRIS: Is this an instance where policy is actually a good thing where you're setting-* KEN: Yes. CHRIS: -maybe rules of engagement for how people should interact in certain arenas? KEN: I mean, it's the exception that proves the rule a little bit. It's not that we don't have policies; it's that we don't want to manage by policy all over the place, right? It's sort of like, "Here's a few ... Here's the constitution, right? Here's a few rules about you interact with each other," but then the rest is like common decency. **CHRIS: Todd, you mentioned something in the Slack channel in preparation for this episode about the question, "what do engineers and designers care about?" And you included some fun things, but the question I have is what do engineers and designers care about and are they similar things or are they different things? TODD: The short answer in my opinion is, no, I find engineers and designers to be very similar. A lot of people think of engineering as math. I think of engineering, and I'm an engineer myself, as much more creativity, at least the kind of engineering we do, than more like mathematics and that kind of stuff. To answer that question, what do they care about? I would love to actually hear Ken talk about what engineers really care about as opposed to maybe some other professions, what they care about. And I'm referring to stuff like money- KEN: You mean, like what would motivate them? Is that what you're asking? TODD: Correct, yeah. KEN: So I always said that like you have basically three levers to pull when you're hiring. One is money, which is not as important to engineers as you might think. I think it's important that they feel that it's fair, but I've seen very few engineers ever be motivated by more money than the fair baseline. I mean, everyone wants more money, right? Don't get me wrong, right? Everyone would like as much as they can get, pretty much. All else being equal. But all else isn't equal. And so lever number two is interesting work. That's a really big one for some engineers. Not as big for some other people, but for some people that's a huge lever, and you could like throw money at them, but if you have to work on a finance system or something that they just don't happen to find interesting, they're gonna be like, "I'll pass." I was always that way. I think most engineers frankly are that way or they'd be working at hedge funds. And the third lever is lifestyle. How close are they to work, like do you have the ping pong table if that's what you care about, do they give you free food if that's something you care about, and for us obviously, the remote work piece is the big giant pillar of our working environment. JAMON: You know, it's gonna be hard for us to compete with Google or Microsoft or something just purely on amenities and dollars and things like that, but when our engineers maybe look around, they have lots of choices. They're great engineers and they have a lot of options, but they look around and they say, "Well, they're not remote work. They don't have this particular culture. They don't put a high emphasis on it." Maybe some of them do have remote work programs, but they're not a core part and piece. And so that's something that we lean very heavily on and the lifestyle part of it where families are part of what we do. If I have my 4-year-old daughter bust in and wave at the sales lead on the video call, that's fine. That's just a part of how we work. KEN: And a huge part of our mission, I think, is that returning people to their families and communities so that they don't have to live in San Francisco Bay area or New York or wherever. They don't have to come in to commute. They can live in the town where they grew up. They can live rurally. We have a number of people that live rurally. They can live nomadically. We have one guy who lives nomadically. That's the closest thing I think we have to like a real mission, like a guiding star for like what we want to see in the world. And it's been central to our belief in remote work, that people's living situation should be based on their personal life and not on their professional life. TODD: It's not just our remote work. We respect people as humans, more importantly as adult humans. I personally have an aversion to people controlling my time. KEN: Well, controlling for no reason, right? Controlling just to control. TODD: We don't own people's time. We don't own people's location. In my opinion, that stops being acceptable after childhood. Now, of course, if you have a responsibility and you've agreed to those responsibilities and you have a responsibility to show up at a meeting at a particular time, that's different. But we don't control people's time or place and I think time is actually a very important part to lifestyle which I agree with Ken, our team especially finds very important. JAMON: So the title of this episode is I think Maximizing Your Team or something along those lines, and when I look at the word "maximizing", we even thought about changing the title when we were first starting this, but because it feels a little bit off in some ways to our core values. It just occurred to me why. We do believe that we should maximize our team, but not in a way that is purely Infinite Red serving. It's more about maximizing them personally, their particular lives. So we give up some productivity in order to maximize their flexibility. We give up some high bandwidth situations so that they can live remotely in other cities. We give up some things that maybe if we were strictly optimizing for maximum productivity would be better in certain cases. And although, even some of those are arguable. I think we'll probably talk about those in future episodes, but maximizing them is more about maximizing them as people and not just as employees. TODD: I'm really glad you brought that up because, yeah, the title's a little weird to me as well. But our job is to lead people towards their best version of their work self. Obviously, everything we're talking about is an ideal and nothing's perfect. But I used to ice skate, for example, and some coaches would just tell me everything's great all the time. Those coaches didn't care. Their job literally is to help me improve. So if I'm doing everything wonderful, then that's not helping me improve. I take the same approach with people and my job is to, in a supportive and kind way, as often as I can given my time help people improve. Well, a couple things for that. One is you want to find the right places for people. Getting angry at a dog because it doesn't climb a tree as well as you wish it would is stupid. You can take a dog and push it towards the best version of a dog, but you can't make a dog a cat. I know, I've tried. (laughter) I'm just kidding. And that's super important. I think a lot of leaders ... Let's call these people managers just to be derogatory. (laughter) A lot of managers will try to make dogs into cats and they complain to all their manager buddies over their cheap beer that employees all suck. And I've said this in a previous podcast, I'll say it again, employees don't suck, you suck. You're a bad manager. Just stop trying to make dogs into cats and try to optimize, make it the best dog that is possible given the time and the particular point of the path that that particular person is on. I don't know why I'm calling the team dogs, I'm sorry about that. I love you, team. KEN: I was gonna say, this is probably the reason we don't have any ambitions to become a very large company because, frankly, once you're at a certain scale, it becomes impossible to do what we're talking about. Like the company needs people to fill particular sized round holes, and they will expect people to shave off their corners in order to fit into the round holes. That's just reality. I don't even think that there's anything wrong with that exactly and some people thrive in that sort of environment, but we try to look at, yeah, what's the best version of this person and like how can they fit into our team rather than doing it the other way around? JAMON: And because of that we tend to hire a little more generalists than maybe a large company would where you can afford to hire a bunch of specialists that only do one thing. Even though we hire generalists, we're still looking for their particular set of properties, what they're good at. TODD: Also, from a leadership standpoint, a leader enjoys working with people who have issues to work on. A manager, which once again I'm using as a derogatory term here, only wants the good people that they can be lazy about and just works. But think about that for a fact. Like I want to be a painter where all the canvas I get already have the paint on them. I want to be a house builder where when I show up to the work site, the house is built. Your job is to literally to help people improve in their work and to help them be the most efficient and the most creative and the most fulfilled that they can be. Why would you complain about team members who have problems? That's literally your job. Team members who are awesome, they don't need me. We have them and that's great, and I still try to help them move forward, but, of course, the further along one's path to their ideal craftsperson or whatever, the less they need you. And, in that case, its more just morale and that kind of support. But what makes me excited as a leader is the people who have quite a few issues to deal with and how to creatively come up with a way to help them deal with that. CHRIS: You're kind of hinting at it, Todd. And I think there's this underlying thread that in order to maximize your team, it's really about being a leader not a manager. So what are some of the ways that people can approach building a team? What does it look like to be a leader? TODD: One, care. Two, work hard. Three, who knows? Four, profit. KEN: That's basically it. I wish there was like a nice summary, a nice silver bullet going, "Hey. Be a leader trying to this one weird trick." The CEO at a startup that I was at for many years where I built a team, he was like, "You know, I don't know what your magic is." I'm like, "There's no magic. I just care." And it can be exhausting at an intense startup. It can be emotionally, physically, super draining to do that really well. I had to rest like to the point like I went and took just a regular engineer job for a couple of years because it took a lot out of me, and so the hard part is not how do you be a great leader. That is, you care and you pay attention. The hard part is how do you be a great leader sustainably over time without it destroying you. And I think having co-founders really helps with that. This is what I've definitely discovered. JAMON: I agree. Some of my most draining weeks have been working on team issues, working on developing people and kind of working through all of that. It's something that you're not really trained at as a software engineer. You end up being, in some ways, kind of a psychologist or something along those lines where you're having to think about a lot of issues and melding personalities and competing priorities and all of those things. I actually talked to my brother-in-law last night and one of the things he mentioned about his job is he went from doing some kind of individual contributor type work to managing a team. And he actually built the team. It was a design team. And he said that it took years off his life doing that because it's not something that came natural to him. And he is the type that absolutely cares. Like he is a very kindhearted, very nice person, and he really cares. And because of that, it was absolutely draining. So I think it's across industries, across disciplines that sort of leadership is ... It's hard. It's not easy to do, so that would definitely up on my list of things that tire me out in a given week. TODD: One thing I want to interject real quick before I go on to my next point, never confuse kindness with weakness. That's a pet peeve of mine. It's sometimes the kindest thing to do is grab their hand and yank them forcefully out of the traffic of oncoming cars. Secondly, I don't ... I guess this is why one of my focuses is team, it doesn't drain me that much to be honest. I really enjoy it. Any day where I'm only interacting with our team as opposed to worrying about business problems or maybe interacting with outside people is a good day for me to be honest. I feel good about that. As far as what does it mean to care and what does it mean to work hard? Well, one, get to know your team. If you can't say your team member's spouse's name whether it's a wife or their husband or whatnot, that's a problem. One of my goals is for us to all to be in a meeting with someone from the outside, and I can go around the table and introduce every single person, know about them, talk a little bit about them. That's huge; just simply knowing people. Also, the other thing that's super, super important ... And, gosh, we could make three podcasts out of this to be honest in my perspective. But one of the things that's super important is when someone does have a problem or they make a mistake or something like that, they feel comfortable coming to you. I had some person recently come to me and say, "Look, I overslept. I missed my alarm and I missed a meeting." It was a client meeting, and that's one of the things that is kind of no-no here at Infinite Red. But they came to me and said, "I just wanted to let you know so you heard it from me first." That's awesome. Well, in this case, I didn't actually say much to be honest because they already knew what they did. They brought it to my attention. Like the end result was done by them. My real job was making them feel comfortable to come and tell me that. If you can have people tell you when they did something wrong instead of hiding it, that's a gold star day for you as a leader in my opinion. That's hard to do, but you have to make people feel comfortable. When they make a mistake, you almost celebrate the mistake because mistakes are what we learn, and you don't beat them up for it but you are firm, fair and kind in response to it. KEN: And on the subject of mistakes, we make tons of them. What we're expressing is our goals and our practice. Just like engineering or design or any of the tasks that our team does, this is our ideals. Sometimes we fall down, and we try to sort of notice and correct. I'd much rather have a system that's built on that feedback loop than on one that is built on never making a mistake. That's part of our kind of our ethos of resiliency that we hope that we are instilling in our employees by embracing ourselves. TODD: Yeah, we make lots of mistakes. One of the things I tell clients is, "Look, we're human. We make mistakes. I would ask you not to judge us on the mistakes that we make. I would ask you to judge us on the speed and the effort we make in correcting those mistakes because that is something we can control. We can't control this being perfect. We're not." And I think the same applies to our team, and hopefully if the team feels it applies to us because I would imagine we make more mistakes than most.

Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "Every Path is the Right Path (give up without giving in)" - Show #515, from 1/14/17 Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "We Continue to Approach" - Show #486 from 11/20/2013 [Excerpts] Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "Ramu Misses You (is it just me)" - Show from 7/12/17 [Excerpts] Jeff Daniels, Guy Sanville - "Can't Sleep excerpt" - Chasing Sleep movie [Always two steps behind] GPaul - "You can organize your life around compassion and solidarity" [You don't have to wait for the rest of the world to do it] The Sedona Method - "Letting Go" Brad Fiedel - "Dream Window" - Fright Night s.t. Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "Hang onto a dream (America)" - Show #469 Brad Fiedel - "Come to Me" - Fright Night s.t. Neil Diamond - "America" [Ominous loops] Ken - "You have to say no to an infinite number of things" [Don't be rushing around (choices)] Neil Diamond - "America" [Ominous loops] John Carpenter - "Being lulled to sleep by TV" - They Live Tom Anthony, composer; Al Dana, Hank Martin, Tish Rabe, Ruth Sherman, singers; Liz Moses, actor; Kathy Mendoza, executive producer - "Show excerpt, about the production of the 3-2-1 Contact theme song" - 3-2-1 Contact Season 1, Episode 1 ("Noisy/Quiet: Production & Processing of Sound") (Jan. 14, 1980) [Children's Television Workshop (CTW)] Tom Anthony, composer; Al Dana, Hank Martin, Tish Rabe, Ruth Sherman, singers; Liz Moses, actor; Kathy Mendoza, executive producer - "The show is about people, ideas, and things all coming into contact" - 3-2-1 Contact Season 1, Episode 1 ("Noisy/Quiet: Production & Processing of Sound") (Jan. 14, 1980) Timothy "Speed" Levitch - "Let's blow up the grid plan" - The Cruise Lemon Jelly - "Page One" St Claire - "Georgia" [Loops] Maureen O'Sullivan (actor); Francis Ford Coppola (director); Jerry Leichtling, Arlene Sarner (writers) - "Being young is just as confusing as being old" - Peggy Sue Got Married movie [Right now, you're just browsing through time. Choose the things that last.] Air Supply - "Making Love out of Nothing At All" [Loops] Elton John - "Tiny Dancer" [Loops] Wild Man Fischer - "I'm not shy anymore" John Lennon - "The dream is over" - Jam Wennder interview The Sedona Method - "Emotions" Jared Leto - "Every path is the right path" - Mr. Nobody [Excerpts] Don Henley - "Boys of Summer" [Loops] Katie Wood (Sugarlift) - "Site of Maggie Walker's grave at Evergreen Cemetery" - 60 Minute Cities: RIchmond [Field recording] Dire Straits - "On Every Street" - On Every Street [Loops] - "Programming is terrible" Belle and Sebastian - "Storytelling" [Loops] Neutral Milk Hotel - "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea" - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea Neutral Milk Hotel - "King of Carrot Flowers Pt. 1" - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea Dan Bodah - "3 Train" - Dronecast Various - "Field recordings" - Quiet American One Minute Vacations [See original playlist for details] Def Leppard - "Promises" [Loops] Various - "Field recordings" - Quiet American One Minute Vacations [See original playlist for details] Ken - "How can we love each other without pain?" [What do you have when you are abandoned?] Bob Dylan - "Series of Dreams" [Loops] Derek and the Dominoes - "Layla" [Loops] Steve Paxton - "If thinking is too slow, is an open state of mind useful?" - Chute [Seems to be] Louise Hay - "Creating your own life" [Every thought we think and every word we speak is creating our future.] Jeff Bridges (voice), Rafael Yglesias (writer), Peter Weir (director) - "Let it go. I can let it go." - Fearless movie ? - "You're going to die" [Includes Tristar logo theme] Pat Morita, Ralph Macchio - "Balance lesson for whole life" - Karate Kid David Cronenberg - "Television signals, projecting fantasies" - Directors: The Films of David Cronenberg show [Forbidden images coming to you from a distant place] David Lynch - "I get ideas" [It's a disturbing thing, because it's a trip beneath a beautiful surface to a fairly uneasy interior of a small town] Alan Watts - "Don't cling to memories" - Transcending Duality [Don't be attached, live in the moment] David Lynch - "Ideas swim from unseen" - Interview 9/13/14 [There's a lot of things swimming in every human being] Ken - "Wind down" - "Field recordings, with David Lynch and Derek and the Dominoes" [See original playlist for details] Andre Gregory - "Mysteries going on all the time" - Some Girls [Every moment, right under our noses] Charlie Kaufman - "If you've got something to say, do it, find your voice, do your stuff in the world" Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley - "My biggest fear is this" - Surviving Desire [nothing more than the building of a wall between me and life] Daft Punk - "Digital Love" [Loops] Edith Frost - "Cars and Parties" [Loops] Malcolm X - "If you're black, you were born in jail" Malcolm X - "I live like a man who has died already, I have no fear of anyone or anything whatsoever" French Films - "Juveniles" - White Orchid Fridge - "Five Combs" [Loops (with Def Leppard)] Ken - "We stumble around, we make mistakes" [Everything keeps getting easier (with Fridge)] Jon Brion - "Theme" - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind [Loops] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "We Continue to Approach" - Show #486 from 11/20/2013 [Ending] Ken - "Various live monologues throughout" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Long and gentle (How many mistakes?)" - Show #443, from Oct. 25, 2012 [The last 18 minutes. Full show and playlist] https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/76244

Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "Every Path is the Right Path (give up without giving in)" - Show #515, from 1/14/17 Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "We Continue to Approach" - Show #486 from 11/20/2013 [Excerpts] Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "Ramu Misses You (is it just me)" - Show from 7/12/17 [Excerpts] Jeff Daniels, Guy Sanville - "Can't Sleep excerpt" - Chasing Sleep movie [Always two steps behind] GPaul - "You can organize your life around compassion and solidarity" [You don't have to wait for the rest of the world to do it] The Sedona Method - "Letting Go" Brad Fiedel - "Dream Window" - Fright Night s.t. Ken's Last Ever Extravaganza - "Hang onto a dream (America)" - Show #469 Brad Fiedel - "Come to Me" - Fright Night s.t. Neil Diamond - "America" [Ominous loops] Ken - "You have to say no to an infinite number of things" [Don't be rushing around (choices)] Neil Diamond - "America" [Ominous loops] John Carpenter - "Being lulled to sleep by TV" - They Live Tom Anthony, composer; Al Dana, Hank Martin, Tish Rabe, Ruth Sherman, singers; Liz Moses, actor; Kathy Mendoza, executive producer - "Show excerpt, about the production of the 3-2-1 Contact theme song" - 3-2-1 Contact Season 1, Episode 1 ("Noisy/Quiet: Production & Processing of Sound") (Jan. 14, 1980) [Children's Television Workshop (CTW)] Tom Anthony, composer; Al Dana, Hank Martin, Tish Rabe, Ruth Sherman, singers; Liz Moses, actor; Kathy Mendoza, executive producer - "The show is about people, ideas, and things all coming into contact" - 3-2-1 Contact Season 1, Episode 1 ("Noisy/Quiet: Production & Processing of Sound") (Jan. 14, 1980) Timothy "Speed" Levitch - "Let's blow up the grid plan" - The Cruise Lemon Jelly - "Page One" St Claire - "Georgia" [Loops] Maureen O'Sullivan (actor); Francis Ford Coppola (director); Jerry Leichtling, Arlene Sarner (writers) - "Being young is just as confusing as being old" - Peggy Sue Got Married movie [Right now, you're just browsing through time. Choose the things that last.] Air Supply - "Making Love out of Nothing At All" [Loops] Elton John - "Tiny Dancer" [Loops] Wild Man Fischer - "I'm not shy anymore" John Lennon - "The dream is over" - Jam Wennder interview The Sedona Method - "Emotions" Jared Leto - "Every path is the right path" - Mr. Nobody [Excerpts] Don Henley - "Boys of Summer" [Loops] Katie Wood (Sugarlift) - "Site of Maggie Walker's grave at Evergreen Cemetery" - 60 Minute Cities: RIchmond [Field recording] Dire Straits - "On Every Street" - On Every Street [Loops] - "Programming is terrible" Belle and Sebastian - "Storytelling" [Loops] Neutral Milk Hotel - "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea" - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea Neutral Milk Hotel - "King of Carrot Flowers Pt. 1" - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea Dan Bodah - "3 Train" - Dronecast Various - "Field recordings" - Quiet American One Minute Vacations [See original playlist for details] Def Leppard - "Promises" [Loops] Various - "Field recordings" - Quiet American One Minute Vacations [See original playlist for details] Ken - "How can we love each other without pain?" [What do you have when you are abandoned?] Bob Dylan - "Series of Dreams" [Loops] Derek and the Dominoes - "Layla" [Loops] Steve Paxton - "If thinking is too slow, is an open state of mind useful?" - Chute [Seems to be] Louise Hay - "Creating your own life" [Every thought we think and every word we speak is creating our future.] Jeff Bridges (voice), Rafael Yglesias (writer), Peter Weir (director) - "Let it go. I can let it go." - Fearless movie ? - "You're going to die" [Includes Tristar logo theme] Pat Morita, Ralph Macchio - "Balance lesson for whole life" - Karate Kid David Cronenberg - "Television signals, projecting fantasies" - Directors: The Films of David Cronenberg show [Forbidden images coming to you from a distant place] David Lynch - "I get ideas" [It's a disturbing thing, because it's a trip beneath a beautiful surface to a fairly uneasy interior of a small town] Alan Watts - "Don't cling to memories" - Transcending Duality [Don't be attached, live in the moment] David Lynch - "Ideas swim from unseen" - Interview 9/13/14 [There's a lot of things swimming in every human being] Ken - "Wind down" - "Field recordings, with David Lynch and Derek and the Dominoes" [See original playlist for details] Andre Gregory - "Mysteries going on all the time" - Some Girls [Every moment, right under our noses] Charlie Kaufman - "If you've got something to say, do it, find your voice, do your stuff in the world" Martin Donovan, Hal Hartley - "My biggest fear is this" - Surviving Desire [nothing more than the building of a wall between me and life] Daft Punk - "Digital Love" [Loops] Edith Frost - "Cars and Parties" [Loops] Malcolm X - "If you're black, you were born in jail" Malcolm X - "I live like a man who has died already, I have no fear of anyone or anything whatsoever" French Films - "Juveniles" - White Orchid Fridge - "Five Combs" [Loops (with Def Leppard)] Ken - "We stumble around, we make mistakes" [Everything keeps getting easier (with Fridge)] Jon Brion - "Theme" - Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind [Loops] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "We Continue to Approach" - Show #486 from 11/20/2013 [Ending] Ken - "Various live monologues throughout" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Long and gentle (How many mistakes?)" - Show #443, from Oct. 25, 2012 [The last 18 minutes. Full show and playlist] http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/76244

Vincent Duseigne - "Amiens station / 80000 Amiens, France" Ken - "We're going places" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Ken - "You should give yourself a break" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Ken - "Identification" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Jesse Kaminsky - "Show a few weeks ago where he played Vincent Duseigne" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Ken - "Eventually we have to give in (I'm glad that you keep going)" http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/76123

Vincent Duseigne - "Amiens station / 80000 Amiens, France" Ken - "We're going places" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Ken - "You should give yourself a break" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Ken - "Identification" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Jesse Kaminsky - "Show a few weeks ago where he played Vincent Duseigne" Vincent Duseigne - "Nearly 100 different recordings, blended live today" Ken - "Eventually we have to give in (I'm glad that you keep going)" https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/76123