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On this episode, my guest is Stephen Jenkinson, culture activist and ceremonialist advocating a handmade life and eloquence. He is an author, a storyteller, a musician, sculptor and off-grid organic farmer. Stephen is the founder/ principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. Also a sought-after workshop leader, articulating matters of the heart, human suffering, confusions through ceremony.He is the author of several influential books, including Money and the Soul's Desires, Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), and Reckoning (2022), co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson. His most recent book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work, was released in August 2025. He is also involved in the musical project Nights of Grief & Mystery with singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins, which has toured across North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.Show Notes:* The Bone House of the Orphan Wisdom Enterprise* Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work* The Wedding Industry* Romantic Sameness and Psychic Withering* The Two Tribes* The Roots of Hospitality* The Pompous Ending of Hospitality* Debt, And the Estrangement of the Stranger* More Than Human Hospitality* The Alchemy of the Orphan Wisdom SchoolHomework:Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work | PurchaseOrphan WisdomThe Scriptorium: Echoes of an Orphan WisdomTranscription:Chris: This is an interview that I've been wondering about for a long time in part, because Stephen was the first person I ever interviewed for the End of Tourism Podcast. In Oaxaca, Mexico, where I live Stephen and Natalie were visiting and were incredibly, incredibly generous. Stephen, in offering his voice as a way to raise up my questions to a level that deserve to be contended with.We spoke for about two and a half hours, if I remember correctly. And there was a lot in what you spoke to towards the second half of the interview that I think we're the first kind of iterations of the Matrimony book.We spoke a little bit about the stranger and trade, and it was kind of startling as someone trying to offer their first interview and suddenly hearing something [00:01:00] that I'd never heard before from Stephen. Right. And so it was quite impressive. And I'm grateful to be here now with y'all and to get to wonder about this a little more deeply with you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm. Hmm.Chris: This is also a special occasion for the fact that for the first time in the history of the podcast, we have a live audience among us today. Strange doings. Some scholars and some stewards and caretakers of the Orphan Wisdom enterprise. So, thank you all as well for coming tonight and being willing to listen and put your ears to this.And so to begin, Stephen, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to let those who will be listening to this recording later on know where we're gathered in tonight?Stephen: Well, we're in... what's the name of this township?Nathalie: North Algona.Stephen: North Algona township on the borders, an eastern gate [00:02:00] of Algonquin Park. Strangely named place, given the fact that they were the first casualties of the park being established. And we're in a place that never should have been cleared - my farm. It should never have been cleared of the talls, the white pines that were here, but the admiralty was in need back in the day. And that's what happened there. And we're in a place that the Irish immigrants who came here after the famine called "Tramore," which more or less means "good-frigging luck farming."It doesn't technically mean that, but it absolutely means that. It actually means "sandy shore," which about covers the joint, and it's the only thing that covers the joint - would be sand. You have to import clay. Now, that's a joke in many farming places in the world, but if we wanted any clay, we'd have to bring it in and pay for the privilege.And the farm has been in [00:03:00] my, my responsibility for about 25 years now, pretty close to that. And the sheep, or those of them left because the coyotes have been around for the first time in their casualty-making way... They're just out here, I'm facing the field where they're milling around.And it's the very, very beginnings of the long cooling into cold, into frigid, which is our lot in this northern part of the hemisphere, even though it's still August, but it's clear that things have changed. And then, we're on a top of a little hill, which was the first place that I think that we may have convened a School here.It was a tipi, which is really worked very well considering we didn't live here, so we could put it up and put it down in the same weekend. [00:04:00] And right on this very hill, we were, in the early days, and we've replaced that tipi with another kind of wooden structure. A lot more wood in this one.This has been known as "The Teaching Hall" or "The Great Hall," or "The Hall" or "The Money Pit, as it was known for a little while, but it actually worked out pretty well. And it was I mean, people who've come from Scandinavia are knocked out by the kind of old-style, old-world visitation that the place seems to be to them.And I'd never really been before I had the idea what this should look like, but I just went from a kind of ancestral memory that was knocking about, which is a little different than your preferences, you know. You have different kinds of preferences you pass through stylistically through your life, but the ones that lay claim to you are the ones that are not interested in your [00:05:00] preferences. They're interested in your kind of inheritance and your lineage.So I'm more or less from the northern climes of Northern Europe, and so the place looks that way and I was lucky enough to still have my carving tools from the old days. And I've carved most of the beams and most of the posts that keep the place upright with a sort of sequence of beasts and dragons and ne'er-do-wells and very, very few humans, I think two, maybe, in the whole joint. Something like that. And then, mostly what festoons a deeply running human life is depicted here. And there's all kinds of stories, which I've never really sat down and spoken to at great length with anybody, but they're here.And I do deeply favour the idea that one day [00:06:00] somebody will stumble into this field, and I suppose, upon the remains of where we sit right now, and wonder "What the hell got into somebody?" That they made this mountain of timber moldering away, and that for a while what must have been, and when they finally find the footprint of, you know, its original dimensions and sort of do the wild math and what must have been going on in this sandy field, a million miles in away from its home.And wherever I am at that time, I'll be wondering the same thing.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: "What went on there?" Even though I was here for almost all of it. So, this was the home of the Orphan Wisdom School for more than a decade and still is the home of the Orphan Wisdom School, even if it's in advance, or in retreat [00:07:00] or in its doldrums. We'll see.And many things besides, we've had weddings in here, which is wherein I discovered "old-order matrimony," as I've come to call it, was having its way with me in the same way that the design of the place did. And it's also a grainery for our storage of corn. Keep it up off the ground and out of the hands of the varmints, you know, for a while.Well that's the beginning.Chris: Hmm. Hmm. Thank you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: You were mentioning the tipi where the school began. I remember sleeping in there the first time I came here. Never would I have thought for a million years that I'd be sitting here with you.Stephen: It's wild, isn't it?Chris: 12 years later.?: Yeah.Chris: And so next, I'd like to do my best in part over the course of the next perhaps hour or two to congratulate you on the release of [00:08:00] your new book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.Stephen: Thank you.Chris: Mm-hmm. I'm grateful to say like many others that I've received a copy and have lent my eyes to your good words, and what is really an incredible achievement.For those who haven't had a chance to lay their eyes on it just yet, I'm wondering if you could let us in on why you wrote a book about matrimony in our time and where it stands a week out from its publication.Stephen: Well, maybe the answer begins with the question, "why did you write a book, having done so before?" And you would imagine that the stuff that goes into writing a book, you'd think that the author has hopes for some kind of redemptive, redeeming outcome, some kind of superlative that drops out the back end of the enterprise.And you know, this is [00:09:00] the seventh I've written. And I would have to say that's not really how it goes, and you don't really know what becomes of what you've written, even with the kind people who do respond, and the odd non-monetary prize that comes your way, which Die Wise gamed that.But I suppose, I wrote, at all partly to see what was there. You know, I had done these weddings and I was a little bit loathe to let go, to let the weddings turn entirely into something historical, something that was past, even though I probably sensed pretty clearly that I was at the end of my willingness to subject myself to the slings and arrows that came along with the enterprise, but it's a sweet sorrow, or there's a [00:10:00] wonder that goes along with the tangle of it all. And so, I wrote to find out what happened, as strange as that might sound to you. You can say, "well, you were there, you kind of knew what happened." But yes, I was witness to the thing, but there's the act of writing a book gives you the opportunity to sort of wonder in three-dimensions and well, the other thing I should say is I was naive and figured that the outfit who had published the, more or less prior two books to this one, would kind of inevitably be drawn to the fact that same guy. Basically, same voice, new articulation. And I was dumbfounded to find out that they weren't. And so, it's sort of smarted, you know?And I think what I did was I just set the whole [00:11:00] enterprise aside, partly to contend with the the depths of the disappointment in that regard, and also not wanting to get into the terrible fray of having to parse or paraphrase the book in some kind of elevator pitch-style to see if anybody else wanted to look at it. You know, such as my touchy sense of nobility sometimes, you know, that I just rather not be involved in the snarl of the marketplace any longer.So, I withdrew and I just set it aside but it wasn't that content to be set, set aside. And you know, to the book's credit, it bothered me every once in a while. It wasn't a book at the point where I was actually trying to engineer it, you know, and, and give it some kind of structure. I had piles of paper on the floor representing the allegation of chapters, trying to figure out what the relationship was [00:12:00] between any of these things.What conceivably should come before what. What the names of any of these things might be. Did they have an identity? Was I just imposing it? And all of that stuff I was going through at the same time as I was contending with a kind of reversal in fortune, personally. And so in part, it was a bit of a life raft to give me something to work on that I wouldn't have to research or dig around in the backyard for it and give me some sort of self-administered occupation for a while.Finally, I think there's a parallel with the Die Wise book, in that when it came to Die Wise, I came up with what I came up with largely because, in their absolute darkest, most unpromising hours, an awful lot of dying people, all of whom are dead now, [00:13:00] let me in on some sort of breach in the, the house of their lives.And I did feel that I had some obligation to them long-term, and that part of that obligation turned into writing Die Wise and touring and talking about that stuff for years and years, and making a real fuss as if I'd met them all, as if what happened is really true. Not just factually accurate, but deeply, abidingly, mandatorily true.So, although it may be the situation doesn't sound as extreme, but the truth is, when a number of younger - than me - people came to me and asked me to do their weddings, I, over the kind of medium-term thereafter, felt a not dissimilar obligation that the events that ensued from all of that not [00:14:00] be entrusted entirely to those relatively few people who attended. You know, you can call them "an audience," although I hope I changed that. Or you could call them "witnesses," which I hope I made them that.And see to it that there could be, not the authorized or official version of what happened, but to the view from here, so to speak, which is, as I sit where I am in the hall right now, I can look at the spot where I conducted much of this when I wasn't sacheting up and down the middle aisle where the trestle tables now are.And I wanted to give a kind of concerted voice to that enterprise. And I say "concerted voice" to give you a feel for the fact that I don't think this is a really an artifact. It's not a record. It's a exhortation that employs the things that happened to suggest that even though it is the way it is [00:15:00] ritually, impoverished as it is in our time and place, it has been otherwise within recoverable time and history. It has.And if that's true, and it is, then it seems to me at least is true that it could be otherwise again. And so, I made a fuss and I made a case based on that conviction.There's probably other reasons I can't think of right now. Oh, being not 25 anymore, and not having that many more books in me, the kind of wear and tear on your psyche of imposing order on the ramble, which is your recollection, which has only so many visitations available in it. Right? You can only do that so many times, I think. And I'm not a born writing person, you know, I come to it maniacally when I [00:16:00] do, and then when it's done, I don't linger over it so much.So then, when it's time to talk about it, I actually have to have a look, because the act of writing it is not the act of reading it. The act of writing is a huge delivery and deliverance at the same time. It's a huge gestation. And you can't do that to yourself, you know, over and over again, but you can take some chances, and look the thing in the eye. So, and I think some people who are there, they're kind of well-intended amongst them, will recognize themselves in the details of the book, beyond "this is what happened and so on." You know, they'll recognize themselves in the advocacy that's there, and the exhortations that are there, and the [00:17:00] case-making that I made and, and probably the praying because there's a good degree of prayerfulness in there, too.That's why.Chris: Thank you. bless this new one in the world. And what's the sense for you?Stephen: Oh, yes.Chris: It being a one-week old newborn. How's that landing in your days?Stephen: Well, it's still damp, you know. It's still squeaky, squeaky and damp. It's walking around like a newborn primate, you know, kind of swaying in the breeze and listening to port or to starboard according to whatever's going on.I don't know that it's so very self-conscious in the best sense of that term, yet. Even though I recorded the audio version, I don't think [00:18:00] it's my voice is found every nook and cranny at this point, yet. So, it's kind of new. It's not "news," but it is new to me, you know, and it's very early in terms of anybody responding to it.I mean, nobody around me has really taken me aside and say, "look, now I want to tell you about this book you wrote." It hasn't happened, and we'll see if it does, but I've done a few events on the other side of the ocean and hear so far, very few, maybe handful of interviews. And those are wonderful opportunities to hear something of what you came up with mismanaged by others, you know, misapprehend, you could say by others.No problem. I mean, it's absolutely no problem. And if you don't want that to happen, don't talk, don't write anything down. So, I don't mind a bit, you know, and the chances are very good that it'll turn into things I didn't have in mind [00:19:00] as people take it up, and regard their own weddings and marriages and plans and schemes and fears and, you know, family mishigas and all the rest of it through this particular lens, you know. They may pick up a pen or a computer (it's an odd expression, "pick up a computer"), and be in touch with me and let me know. "Yeah, that was, we tried it" or whatever they're going to do, because, I mean, maybe Die Wise provided a bit of an inkling of how one might be able to proceed otherwise in their dying time or in their families or their loved ones dying time.This is the book that most readily lends itself to people translating into something they could actually do, without a huge kind of psychic revolution or revolt stirring in them, at least not initially. This is as close as I come, probably, to writing a sequence of things [00:20:00] that could be considered "add-ons" to what people are already thinking about, that I don't force everybody else outta the house in order to make room for the ideas that are in the book. That may happen, anyway, but it wasn't really the intent. The intent was to say, you know, we are in those days when we're insanely preoccupied with the notion of a special event. We are on the receiving end of a considerable number of shards showing up without any notion really about what these shards remember or are memories of. And that's the principle contention I think that runs down the spine of the book, is that when we undertake matrimony, however indelicately, however by rote, you know, however mindlessly we may do it, [00:21:00] inadvertently, we call upon those shards nonetheless.And they're pretty unspectacular if you don't think about them very deeply, like the rice or confetti, like the aisle, like the procession up the aisle, like the giving away of someone, like the seating arrangement, like the spectacle seating arrangement rather than the ritual seating arrangement.And I mean, there's a fistful of them. And they're around and scholars aside maybe, nobody knows why they do them. Everybody just knows, "this is what a wedding is," but nobody knows why. And because nobody knows why, nobody really seems to know what a wedding is for, although they do proceed like they would know a wedding if they saw one. So, I make this a question to be really wondered about, and the shards are a way in. They're the kind of [00:22:00] breadcrumb trail through the forest. They're the little bits of broken something, which if you begin to handle just three or four of them, and kind of fit them together, and find something of the original shape and inflection of the original vessel, kind of enunciates, begins to murmur in your hands, and from it you can begin to infer some three-dimensionality to the original shape. And from the sense of the shape, you get a set sense of contour, and from the sense of contour, you get a sense of scale or size. And from that you get a sense of purpose, or function, or design. And from that you get a sense of some kind of serious magisterial insight into some of the fundament of human being that was manifest in the "old-order matrimony," [00:23:00] as I came to call it.So, who wouldn't wanna read that book?Chris: Mm-hmm.Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Stephen. Yeah. It reminds me, just before coming up here, maybe two weeks ago, I was in attending a wedding. And there was a host or mc, and initially just given what I was hearing over the microphone, it was hard to tell if he was hired or family or friends. And it turned out he was, in fact, a friend of the groom. And throughout the night he proceeded to take up that role as a kind of comedian.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: This was the idea, I guess. Mm-hmm. And he was buzzing and mumbling and swearing into the microphone, [00:24:00] and then finally minimizing the only remnant of traditional culture that showed up in the wedding. And his thing was, okay, so when can we get to the part where it's boom, boom, boom, right. And shot, shot, shot, whatever.Stephen: Right.Chris: There was so much that came up in my memories in part because I worked about a decade in Toronto in the wedding industry.Mm-hmm. Hospitality industry. Maybe a contradiction in terms, there. And there was one moment that really kind of summed it up. I kept coming back to this reading the book because it was everything that you wrote seemed to not only antithetical to this moment, but also an antidote.Anyways, it was in North Toronto and the [00:25:00] owner of the venue - it was a kind of movie theatre turned event venue - and there was a couple who was eventually going to get married there. They came in to do their tasting menu to see what they wanted to put on the menu for the dinner, for their wedding.And the owner was kind of this mafioso type. And he comes in and he sees them and he walks over and he says, "so, you're gonna get married at my wedding factory."Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: In all sincerity.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: Right.Without skipping a beat. Could you imagine?Stephen: Yeah.I could. I sure could.Chris: Yeah. Yeah.Stephen: I mean, don't forget, if these people weren't doing what the people wanted, they'd be outta business.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: No, that's the thing. This is aiding and abetting. This is sleeping with the enemy, stylistically-speaking. [00:26:00] The fact that people "settle" (that's the term I would use for it), settle for this, the idea being that this somehow constitutes the most honest and authentic through line available to us is just jaw dropping. When you consider what allegedly this thing is supposed to be for. I mean, maybe we'll get into this, but I'll just leave this as a question for now. What is that moment allegedly doing?Not, what are the people in it allegedly doing? The moment itself, what is it? How is it different from us sitting here now talking about it? And how is it different from the gory frigging jet-fuelled aftermath of excess. And how's it different from the cursing alleged master of ceremonies? How can you [00:27:00] tell none of those things belong to this thing?And why do you have such a hard time imagining what doesAudience: Hmm mmChris: Well that leads me to my next question.Stephen: Ah, you're welcome.Chris: So, I've pulled a number of quotes from the book to read from over the course of the interview. And this one for anyone who's listening is on page 150. And you write Stephen,"Spiritually-speaking, most of the weddings in our corner of the world are endogamous affairs, inward-looking. What is, to me, most unnerving is that they can be spiritually-incestuous. The withering of psychic difference between people is the program of globalization. It is in the architecture of most things partaking of the internet, and it is in the homogeneity of our matrimony. [00:28:00] It is this very incestuous that matrimony was once crafted and entered into to avoid and subvert. Now, it grinds upon our differences until they are details.And so, this paragraph reminded me of a time in my youth when I seemed to be meeting couples who very eerily looked like each other. No blood or extended kin relation whatsoever, and yet they had very similar faces. And so as I get older, this kind of face fidelity aside, I continue to notice that people looking for companionship tend to base their search on similitude, on shared interests, customs, experiences, shared anything and everything. This, specifically, in opposition to those on the other side of the aisle or spectrum, to difference or divergence. And so, opposites don't attract anymore. I'm curious what you think this psychic [00:29:00] withering does to an achieve understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Well, I mean, let's wonder what it does to us, generally, first before we get to matrimony, let's say. It demonizes. Maybe that's too strong, but it certainly reconstitutes difference as some kind of affliction, some kind of not quite good enough, some kind of something that has to be overcome or overwhelmed on the road to, to what? On the road to sameness? So, if that's the goal, then are all of the differences between us, aberrations of some kind, if that's the goal? If that's the goal, are all the [00:30:00] differences between us, not God-given, but humanly misconstrued or worse? Humanly wrought? Do the differences between us conceivably then belong at all? Or is the principle object of the entire endeavor to marry yourself, trying to put up with the vague differences that the other person represents to you?I mean, I not very jokingly said years ago, that I coined a phrase that went something like "the compromise of infinity, which is other people." What does that mean? "The compromise of infinity, which is other people." Not to mention it's a pretty nice T-shirt. But what I meant by the [00:31:00] phrase is this: when you demonize difference in this fashion or when you go the other direction and lionize sameness, then one of the things that happens is that compromise becomes demonized, too. Compromise, by definition, is something you never should have done, right? Compromise is how much you surrender of yourself in order to get by. That's what all these things become. And before you know it, you're just beaten about the head and shoulders about "codependence" and you know, not being "true to yourself" as if being true to yourself is some kind of magic.I mean, the notion that "yourself is the best part of you" is just hilarious. I mean, when you think about it, like who's running amuck if yourself is what you're supposed to be? I ask you. Like, who's [00:32:00] doing the harm? Who's going mental if the self is such a good idea? So, of course, I'm maintaining here that I'm not persuaded that there is such a thing.I think it's a momentary lapse in judgment to have a self and to stick to it. That's the point I'm really making to kind of reify it until it turns ossified and dusty and bizarrely adamant like that estranged relative that lives in the basement of your house. Bizarrely, foreignly adamant, right? Like the house guest who just won't f**k off kind of thing.Okay, so "to thine own self be true," is it? Well, try being true to somebody else's self for ten minutes. Try that. [00:33:00] That's good at exercise for matrimony - being true to somebody else's self. You'll discover that their selves are not made in heaven, either. Either. I underscore it - either. I've completely lost track of the question you asked me.Chris: What are the consequences of the sameness on this anti-cultural sameness, and the program of it for an achieved understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Thank you. Well, I will fess up right now. I do so in the book. That's a terrible phrase. I swear I'd never say such a thing. "In my book... I say the following," but in this case, it's true. I did say this. I realized during the writing of it that I had made a tremendous tactical error in the convening of the event as I did it over the years, [00:34:00] and this is what it came to.I was very persuaded at the time of the story that appears in the chapter called "Salt and Indigo" in the book. I was very, very persuaded. I mean, listen, I made up the story (for what it's worth), okay, but I didn't make it up out of nothing. I made it up out of a kind of tribal memory that wouldn't quite let go.And in it, I was basically saying, here's these two tribes known principally for what they trade in and what they love most emphatically. They turn out to be the same thing. And I describe a circumstance in which they exchange things in a trade scenario, not a commerce scenario. And I'm using the chapter basically to make the case that matrimony's architecture derives in large measure from the sacraments of trade as manifest in that story. [00:35:00] Okay. And this is gonna sound obvious, but the fundamental requirement of the whole conceit that I came up with is that there are two tribes. Well, I thought to myself, "of course, there's always two tribes" at the time. And the two tribe-ness is reflected in when you come to the wedding site, you're typically asked (I hope you're still asked) " Are you family or friend of the groom or friend of the bride?" And you're seated "accordingly," right? That's the nominal, vestigial shard of this old tribal affiliation, that people came from over the rise, basically unknown to each other, to arrive at the kind of no man's land of matrimony, and proceeded accordingly. So, I put these things into motion in this very room and I sat people accordingly facing each other, not facing the alleged front of the room. [00:36:00] And of course, man, nobody knew where to look, because you raised your eyes and s**t. There's just humans across from you, just scads of them who you don't freaking know. And there's something about doing that to North Americas that just throws them. So, they're just looking at each other and then looking away, and looking at each other and looking away, and wondering what they're doing here and what it's for. And I'm going back and forth for three hours, orienting them as to what is is coming.Okay, so what's the miscalculation that I make? The miscalculation I made was assuming that by virtue of the seating arrangement, by virtue of me reminding them of the salt and indigo times, by virtue of the fact that they had a kind of allegiance of some sort or another to the people who are, for the moment, betrothed, that those distinctions and those affiliations together would congeal them, and constitute a [00:37:00] kind of tribal affiliation that they would intuitively be drawn towards as you would be drawn to heat on a cold winter's night.Only to discover, as I put the thing into motion that I was completely wrong about everything I just told you about. The nature of my error was this, virtually all of those people on one side of the room were fundamentally of the same tribe as the people on the other side of the room, apropos of your question, you see. They were card carrying members of the gray dominant culture of North America. Wow. The bleached, kind of amorphous, kind of rootless, ancestor-free... even regardless of whether their people came over in the last generation from the alleged old country. It doesn't really claim them.[00:38:00]There were two tribes, but I was wrong about who they were. That was one tribe. Virtually everybody sitting in the room was one tribe.So, who's the other tribe? Answer is: me and the four or five people who were in on the structural delivery of this endeavour with me. We were the other tribe.We didn't stand a chance, you see?And I didn't pick up on that, and I didn't cast it accordingly and employ that, instead. I employed the conceit that I insisted was manifest and mobilized in the thing, instead of the manifest dilemma, which is that everybody who came knew what a wedding was, and me and four or five other people were yet to know if this could be one. That was the tribal difference, if you [00:39:00] will.So, it was kind of invisible, wasn't it? Even to me at the time. Or, I say, maybe especially to me at the time. And so, things often went the way they went, which was for however much fascination and willingness to consider that there might have been in the room, there was quite a bit more either flat affect and kind of lack of real fascination, or curiosity, or sometimes downright hostility and pushback. Yeah.So, all of that comes from the fact that I didn't credit as thoroughly as I should have done, the persistence in Anglo-North America of a kind of generic sameness that turned out to be what most people came here ancestrally to become. "Starting again" is recipe for culture [00:40:00] loss of a catastrophic order. The fantasy of starting again. Right?And we've talked about that in your podcast, and you and I have talked about it privately, apropos of your own family and everybody's sitting in this room knows what I'm talking about. And when does this show up? Does it show up, oh, when you're walking down the street? Does it show up when you're on the mountaintop? Does it show up in your peak experiences? And the answer is "maybe." It probably shows up most emphatically in those times when you have a feeling that something special is supposed to be so, and all you can get from the "supposed to" is the allegation of specialness.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And then, you look around in the context of matrimony and you see a kind of febral, kind of strained, the famous bridezilla stuff, all of that stuff. [00:41:00] You saw it in the hospitality industry, no doubt. You know, the kind of mania for perfection, as if perfection constitutes culture. Right? With every detail checked off in the checkbox, that's culture. You know, as if everything goes off without a hitch and there's no guffaws. And in fact, anybody could reasonably make the case, "Where do you think culture appears when the script finally goes f*****g sideways?" That's when. And when you find out what you're capable of, ceremonially.And generally speaking, I think most people discovered that their ceremonial illiteracy bordered on the bottomless.That's when you find out. Hmm.Chris: Wow.Stephen: Yeah. And that's why people, you know, in speech time, they reach in there and get that piece of paper, and just look at it. Mm-hmm. They don't even look up, terrified that they're gonna go off script for a minute as [00:42:00] if the Gods of Matrimony are a scripted proposition.Chris: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us, that degree of deep reflection and humility that I'm sure comes with it.Stephen: Mea Culpa, baby. Yeah, I was, I got that one totally wrong. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know it at the time. Meanwhile, like, how much can you transgress and have the consequences of doing so like spill out across the floor like a broken thermometer's mercury and not wise up.But of course, I was as driven as anybody. I was as driven to see if I could come through with what I promised to do the year before. And keeping your promise can make you into a maniac.Audience: Hmm hmm.Chris: But I imagine that, you [00:43:00] know, you wouldn't have been able to see that even years later if you didn't say yes in the first place.Stephen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't have been able to make the errors.Chris: Right.Stephen: Right. Yeah. I mean, as errors go, this is not a mortal sin. Right, right. And you could chalk it up to being a legitimate miscalculation. Well, so? All I'm saying is, it turns out I was there too, and it turns out, even though I was allegedly the circus master of the enterprise, I wasn't free and clear of the things we were all contending with, the kind of mortality and sort of cultural ricketiness that were all heirs to. That's how I translated it, as it turns out.So, PS there was a moment, [00:44:00] which I don't remember which setting it was now, but there was a moment when the "maybe we'll see if she becomes a bride" bride's mother slid up to me during the course of the proceedings, and in a kind of stage whisper more or less hissed me as follows."Is this a real wedding?"I mean, that's not a question. Not in that setting, obviously not. That is an accusation. Right. And a withering one at that. And there was a tremendous amount of throw-down involved.So, was it? I mean, what we do know is that she did not go to any of the weddings [00:45:00] that she was thinking of at the time, and go to the front of the room where the celebrant is austerely standing there with the book, or the script, or the well-intentioned, or the self-penned vows and never hissed at him or her, "is this a real wedding?"Never once did she do that. We know that.Right.And I think we know why. But she was fairly persuaded she knew what a real wedding was. And all she was really persuaded by was the poverty of the weddings that she'd attended before that one. Well, I was as informed in that respect as she was, wasn't I? I just probably hadn't gone to as many reprobate weddings as she had, so she had more to deal with than I did, even though I was in the position of the line of fire.And I didn't respond too well to the question, I have to say. At the moment, I was rather combative. But I mean, you try to do [00:46:00] what I tried to do and not have a degree of fierceness to go along with your discernment, you know, just to see if you can drag this carcass across the threshold. Anyway, that happened too.Chris: Wow. Yeah. Dominant culture of North America.Stephen: Heard of it.Chris: Yeah. Well, in Matrimony, there's quite a bit in which you write about hospitality and radical hospitality. And I wanted to move in that direction a little bit, because in terms of these kind of marketplace rituals or ceremonies that you were mentioning you know, it's something that we might wonder, I think, as you have, how did it come to be this [00:47:00] way?And so I'd like to, if I can once again, quote from matrimony in which you speak to the etymology of hospitality. And so for those interested on page 88,"the word hospitality comes from hospitaller, meaning 'one who cares for the afflicted, the infirm, the needy.' There's that thread of our misgivings about being on the receiving end of hospitality. Pull on it. For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"End quote.Stephen: That's so great. I mean, before you go on with the quote. It's so great to know that the word, unexamined, just kind of leaks upside, doesn't it? Hospitality, I mean, nobody goes "Hospitality, ew." [00:48:00] And then, if you just quietly do the obvious math to yourself, there's so much awkwardness around hospitality.This awkwardness must have an origin, have a home. There must be some misgiving that goes along with the giving of hospitality, mustn't there be? How else to understand where that kind of ickiness is to be found. Right? And it turns out that the etymology is giving you the beginnings of a way of figuring it out what it is that you're on the receiving end of - a kind of succor that you wish you didn't need, which is why it's the root word for "hospital."Chris: Hmm hmm. Wow.Audience: Hmm.Chris: May I repeat that sentence please? Once more."For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, [00:49:00] 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"And so this last part hits home for me as I imagine it does for many.And it feels like the orthodoxy of hospitality in our time is one based not only in transaction, but in debt. And if you offer hospitality to me, then I owe you hospitality.Stephen: Right.Chris: I'm indebted to you. And we are taught, in our time, that the worst thing to be in is in debt.Stephen: Right?Chris: And so people refuse both the desire to give as well as the learning skill of receiving. And this is continuing on page 88 now."But there's mystery afoot with this word. In its old Latin form, hospice meant both 'host' and 'guest.'"Stephen: Amazing. One. Either one, This is absolutely amazing. We're fairly sure that there's a [00:50:00] acres of difference between the giver of hospitality and the receiver that the repertoire is entirely different, that the skew between them is almost insurmountable, that they're not interchangeable in any way. But the history of the word immediately says, "really?" The history of the word, without question, says that "host" and "guest" are virtually the same, sitting in different places, being different people, more or less joined at the hip. I'll say more, but you go ahead with what you were gonna do. Sure.Chris: "In it's proto Indo-European origins, hospitality and hospice is a compound word: gosh + pot. And it meant something like [00:51:00] 'stranger/guest/host + powerful Lord.'It is amazing to me that ancestrally, the old word for guest, host, and stranger were all the same word. Potent ceremonial business, this is. In those days, the server and the serve were partners in something mysterious. This could be confusing, but only if you think of guest, host, and stranger as fixed identities.If you think of them as functions, as verbs, the confusion softens and begins to clear. The word hospice in its ancient root is telling us that each of the people gathered together in hospitality is bound to the others by formal etiquette, yes, but the bond is transacted through a subtle scheme of graces.Hospitality, it tells us, is a web of longing and belonging that binds people for a time, some hithereto unknown to each other is a clutch of mutually-binding elegances, you could say. In its ancient practice, [00:52:00] hospitality was a covenant. According to that accord, however we were with each other. That was how the Gods would be with us. We learn our hospitality by being on the receiving end of Godly administration. That's what giving thanks for members. We proceed with our kin in imitation of that example and in gratitude for it."Mm-hmm.And so today, among "secular" people, with the Gods ignored, this old-time hospitality seems endangered, if not fugitive. I'm curious how you imagine that this rupture arose, the ones that separated and commercialized the radical relationships between hosts and guests, that turned them from verbs to nouns and something like strangers to marketplace functions.[00:53:00]Stephen: Well, of course this is a huge question you've asked, and I'll see if I can unhuge it a bit.Chris: Uhhuh.Stephen: Let's go right to the heart of what happened. Just no preliminaries, just right to it.So, to underscore again, the beauty of the etymology. I've told you over and over again, the words will not fail you. And this is just a shining example, isn't it? That the fraternization is a matter of ceremonial alacrity that the affiliation between host and guest, which makes them partners in something, that something is the [00:54:00] evocation of a third thing that's neither one of them. It's the thing they've lent themselves to by virtue of submitting to being either a host or a guest. One.Two. You could say that in circumstances of high culture or highly-functioning culture, one of the principle attributes of that culture is that the fundament of its understanding, is that only with the advent of the stranger in their midst that the best of them comes forward.Okay, follow that. Yeah.So, this is a little counterintuitive for those of us who don't come from such places. We imagine that the advent of strangers in the midst of the people I'm describing would be an occasion where people hide their [00:55:00] best stuff away until the stranger disappears, and upon the disappearance of the stranger, the good stuff comes out again.You know?So, I'm just remembering just now, there's a moment in the New Testament where Jesus says something about the best wine and he's coming from exactly this page that we're talking about - not the page in the book, but this understanding. He said, you know, "serve your best wine first," unlike the standard, that prevails, right?So again, what a stranger does in real culture is call upon the cultural treasure of the host's culture, and provides the opportunity for that to come forward, right? By which you can understand... Let's say for simplicity's sake, there's two kinds of hospitality. There's probably all kinds of gradations, [00:56:00] but for the purposes of responding to what you've asked, there's two.One of them is based on kinship. Okay? So, family meal. So, everybody knows whose place is whose around the table, or it doesn't matter - you sit wherever you want. Or, when we're together, we speak shorthand. That's the shorthand of familiarity and affinity, right?Everybody knows what everybody's talking about. A lot of things get half-said or less, isn't it? And there's a certain fineness, isn't it? That comes with that kind of affinity. Of course, there is, and I'm not diminishing it at all. I'm just characterizing it as being of a certain frequency or calibre or charge. And the charge is that it trades on familiarity. It requires that. There's that kind of hospitality."Oh, sit wherever you want."Remember this one?[00:57:00]"We don't stand on ceremony here.""Oh, you're one of the family now." I just got here. What, what?But, of course, you can hear in the protestations the understanding, in that circumstance, that formality is an enemy to feeling good in this moment, isn't it? It feels stiff and starched and uncalled for or worse.It feels imported from elsewhere. It doesn't feel friendly. So, I'm giving you now beginnings of a differentiation between how cultures who really function as cultures understand what it means to be hospitable and what often prevails today, trading is a kind of low-grade warfare conducted against the strangeness of the stranger.The whole purpose of treating somebody like their family is to mitigate, and finally neutralize their [00:58:00] strangeness, so that for the purposes of the few hours in front of us all, there are no strangers here. Right? Okay.Then there's another kind, and intuitively you can feel what I'm saying. You've been there, you know exactly what I mean.There's another kind of circumstance where the etiquette that prevails is almost more emphatic, more tangible to you than the familiar one. That's the one where your mother or your weird aunt or whoever she might be, brings out certain kind of stuff that doesn't come out every day. And maybe you sit in a room that you don't often sit in. And maybe what gets cooked is stuff you haven't seen in a long time. And some part of you might be thinking, "What the hell is all this about?" And the answer is: it's about that guy in the [00:59:00] corner that you don't know.And your own ancestral culture told acres of stories whose central purpose was to convey to outsiders their understanding of what hospitality was. That is fundamentally what The Iliad and The Odyssey are often returning to and returning to and returning to.They even had a word for the ending of the formal hospitality that accrued, that arose around the care and treatment of strangers. It was called pomp or pompe, from which we get the word "pompous." And you think about what the word "pompous" means today.It means "nose in the air," doesn't it? Mm-hmm. It means "thinks really highly of oneself," isn't it? And it means "useless, encumbering, kind of [01:00:00] artificial kind of going through the motions stuff with a kind of aggrandizement for fun." That's what "pompous" means. Well, the people who gave us the word didn't mean that at all. This word was the word they used to describe the particular moment of hospitality when it was time for the stranger to leave.And when it was mutually acknowledged that the time for hospitality has come to an end, and the final act of hospitality is to accompany the stranger out of the house, out of the compound, out into the street, and provision them accordingly, and wish them well, and as is oftentimes practiced around here, standing in the street and waving them long after they disappear from view.This is pompous. This is what it actually means. Pretty frigging cool when you get corrected once in a while, isn't it? [01:01:00] Yeah.So, as I said, to be simplistic about it, there's at least a couple of kinds, and one of them treasures the advent of the stranger, understanding it to be the detonation point for the most elegant part of us to come forward.Now, those of us who don't come from such a place, we're just bamboozled and Shanghai'ed by the notion of formality, which we kind of eschew. You don't like formality when it comes to celebration, as if these two things are hostile, one to the other. But I'd like you to consider the real possibility that formality is grace under pressure, and that formality is there to give you a repertoire of response that rescues you from the gross limitations of your autobiography.[01:02:00]Next question. I mean, that's the beginning.Chris: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Thank you once again, Stephen. So alongside the term or concept of "pompe," in which the the guest or stranger was led out of the house or to the entrance of the village, there was also the consideration around the enforcement of hospitality, which you write about in the book. And you write that"the enforcement of hospitality runs the palpable risk of violating or undoing the cultural value it is there to advocate for. Forcing people to share their good fortune with the less fortunate stretches, to the point of undoing the generosity of spirit that the culture holds dear. Enforcement of hospitality is a sign of the eclipse of hospitality, typically spawned by insecurity, contracted self-definition, and the darkening of the [01:03:00] stranger at the door.Instead, such places and times are more likely to encourage the practice of hospitality in subtle generous ways, often by generously treating the ungenerous."And so there seems to be a need for limits placed on hospitality, in terms of the "pompe," the maximum three days in which a stranger can be given hospitality, and concurrently a need to resist enforcing hospitality. This seems like a kind of high-wire act that hospitable cultures have to balance in order to recognize and realize an honorable way of being with a stranger. And so I'm wondering if you could speak to the possibility of how these limits might be practiced without being enforced. What might that look like in a culture that engages with, with such limits, but without prohibitions?Stephen: Mm-hmm. That's a very good question. [01:04:00] Well, I think your previous question was what happened? I think, in a nutshell, and I didn't really answer that, so maybe see how I can use this question to answer the one that you asked before: what happened? So, there's no doubt in my mind that something happened that it's kind of demonstrable, if only with the benefit of hindsight.Audience: Right.Stephen: Or we can feel our way around the edges of the absence of the goneness of that thing that gives us some feel for the original shape of that thing.So you could say I'm trafficking in "ideals," here, and after a fashion, maybe, yeah. But the notion of "ideals," when it's used in this slanderous way suggests that "it was never like that."Chris: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And I suggest to you it's been like that in a lot of places, and there's a lot of places where it's still like that, although globalization [01:05:00] may be the coup de grâce performed upon this capacity. Okay. But anyway.Okay. So what happened? Well, you see in the circumstance that I described, apropos of the stranger, the stranger is in on it. The stranger's principle responsibility is to be the vector for this sort of grandiose generosity coming forward, and to experience that in a burdensome and unreciprocated fashion, until you realize that their willingness to do that is their reciprocity. Everybody doesn't get to do everything at once. You can't give and receive at the same time. You know what that's called? "Secret Santa at school," isn't it?That's where nobody owes nobody nothing at the end. That's what we're all after. I mean, one of your questions, you know, pointed to that, that there's a kind of, [01:06:00] what do you call that, teeter-totter balance between what people did for each other and what they received for each other. Right. And nobody feels slighted in any way, perfect balance, et cetera.Well, the circumstance here has nothing of the kind going with it. The circumstance we're describing now is one in which the hospitality is clearly unequal in terms of who's eating whose food, for example, in terms of the absolutely frustrated notion of reciprocity, that in fact you undo your end of the hospitality by trying to pay back, or give back, or pay at all, or break even, or not feel the burden of "God, you've been on the take for fricking hours here now." And if you really look in the face of the host, I mean, they're just getting started and you can't, you can't take it anymore.[01:07:00]So, one of the ways that we contend with this is through habits of speech. So, if somebody comes around with seconds. They say, "would you like a little more?"And you say, "I'm good. I'm good. I'm good." You see, "I'm good" is code for what? "F**k off." That's what it's code for. It's a little strong. It's a little strong. What I mean is, when "I'm good" comes to town, it means I don't need you and what you have. Good God, you're not there because you need it you knucklehead. You're there because they need it, because their culture needs an opportunity to remember itself. Right?Okay. So what happened? Because you're making it sound like a pretty good thing, really. Like who would say, "I think we've had enough of this hospitality thing, don't you? Let's try, oh, [01:08:00] keeping our s**t to ourselves. That sounds like a good alternative. Let's give it a week or two, see how it rolls." Never happened. Nobody decided to do this - this change, I don't think. I think the change happened, and sometime long after people realized that the change had had taken place. And it's very simple. The change, I think, went something like this.As long as the guest is in on it, there's a shared and mutually-held understanding that doesn't make them the same. It makes them to use the quote from the book "partners," okay, with different tasks to bring this thing to light, to make it so. What does that require? A mutually-held understanding in vivo as it's happening, what it is.Okay. [01:09:00] So, that the stranger who's not part of the host culture... sorry, let me say this differently.The culture of the stranger has made the culture of the host available to the stranger no matter how personally adept he or she may be at receiving. Did you follow that?Audience: A little.Stephen: Okay. Say it again?Audience: Yes, please.Stephen: Okay. The acculturation, the cultured sophistication of the stranger is at work in his or her strangerhood. Okay. He or she's not at home, but their cultural training helps them understand what their obligations are in terms of this arrangement we've been describing here.Okay, so I think the rupture takes place [01:10:00] when the culturation of one side or the other fails to make the other discernible to the one.One more time?When something happens whereby the acculturation of one of the partners makes the identity, the presence, and the valence of the other one untranslatable. Untranslatable.I could give you an example from what I call " the etiquette of trade," or the... what was the word? Not etiquette. What's the other word?Chris: The covenant?Stephen: Okay, " covenant of trade" we'll call it. So, imagine that people are sitting across from each other, two partners in a trade. Okay? [01:11:00] Imagine that they have one thing to sell or move or exchange and somebody has something else.How does this work? Not "what are the mechanics?" That can be another discussion, but, if this works, how does it work? Not "how does it happen?" How does it actually achieve what they're after? Maybe it's something like this.I have this pottery, and even though you're not a potter, but somebody in your extended family back home was, and you watched what they went through to make a fricking pot, okay?You watched how their hands seized up, because the clay leached all the moisture out of the hands. You distinctly remember that - how the old lady's hands looked cracked and worn, and so from the work of making vessels of hospitality, okay? [01:12:00] It doesn't matter that you didn't make it yourself. The point is you recognize in the item something we could call "cultural patrimony."You recognize the deep-runningness of the culture opposite you as manifest and embodied in this item for trade. Okay? So, the person doesn't have to "sell you" because your cultural sophistication makes this pot on the other side available to you for the deeply venerable thing that it is. Follow what I'm saying?Okay. So, you know what I'm gonna say next? When something happens, the items across from you cease to speak, cease to have their stories come along with them, cease to be available. There's something about your cultural atrophy that you project onto the [01:13:00] item that you don't recognize.You don't recognize it's valence, it's proprieties, it's value, it's deep-running worth and so on. Something happened, okay? And because you're not making your own stuff back home or any part of it. And so now, when you're in a circumstance like this and you're just trying to get this pot, but you know nothing about it, then the enterprise becomes, "Okay, so what do you have to part with to obtain the pot?"And the next thing is, you pretend you're not interested in obtaining the pot to obtain the pot. That becomes part of the deal. And then, the person on the making end feels the deep running slight of your disinterest, or your vague involvement in the proceedings, or maybe the worst: when it's not things you're going back and forth with, but there's a third thing called money, which nobody makes, [01:14:00] which you're not reminded of your grandma or anyone else's with the money. And then, money becomes the ghost of the original understanding of the cultural patrimony that sat between you. That's what happened, I'm fairly sure: the advent, the estrangement that comes with the stranger, instead of the opportunity to be your cultural best when the stranger comes.And then of course, it bleeds through all kinds of transactions beyond the "obvious material ones." So, it's a rupture in translatability, isn't it?Chris: You understand this to happen or have happened historically, culturally, et cetera, with matrimony as well?Stephen: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.Yeah. This is why, for example, things like the fetishization of virginity.Audience: Mm-hmm. [01:15:00]Stephen: I think it's traceable directly to what we're talking about. How so? Oh, this is a whole other long thing, but the very short version would be this.Do you really believe that through all of human history until the recent liberation, that people have forever fetishized the virginity of a young woman and jealously defended it, the "men" in particular, and that it became a commodity to trade back and forth in, and that it had to be prodded and poked at to determine its intactness? And this was deemed to be, you know, honourable behavior?Do you really think that's the people you come from, that they would've do that to the most cherished of their [01:16:00] own, barely pubescent girls? Come on now. I'm not saying it didn't happen and doesn't still happen. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, God almighty, something happened for that to be so.And I'm trying to allude to you now what I think took place. Then all of a sudden, the hymen takes the place of the pottery, doesn't it? And it becomes universally translatable. Doesn't it? It becomes a kind of a ghosted artifact of a culturally-intact time. It's as close as you can get.Hence, this allegation of its purity, or the association with purity, and so on. [01:17:00] I mean, there's lots to say, but that gives you a feel for what might have happened there.Chris: Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for being so generous with your considerations here.Stephen: You see why I had to write a book, eh?Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: There was too much bouncing around. Like I had to just keep track of my own thoughts on the matter.But can you imagine all of this at play in the year, oh, I don't know, 2022, trying to put into motion a redemptive passion play called "matrimony," with all of this at play? Not with all of this in my mind, but with all of this actually disfiguring the anticipation of the proceedings for the people who came.Can you imagine? Can you imagine trying to pull it off, and [01:18:00] contending overtly with all these things and trying to make room for them in a moment that's supposed to be allegedly - get ready for it - happy.I should have raised my rates on the first day, trying to pull that off.But anyway.Okay, you go now,Chris: Maybe now you'll have the opportunity.Stephen: No, man. No. I'm out of the running for that. "Pompe" has come and come and gone. Mm.Chris: So, in matrimony, Stephen, you write that"the brevity, the brevity of modern ceremonies is really there to make sure that nothing happens, nothing of substance, nothing of consequence, no alchemy, no mystery, no crazy other world stuff. That overreach there in its scripted heart tells me that deep in the rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day, the modern wedding is scared [01:19:00] silly of something happening. That's because it has an ages-old abandoned memory of a time when a wedding was a place where the Gods came around, where human testing and trying and making was at hand, when the dead lingered in the wings awaiting their turn to testify and inveigh."Gorgeous. Gorgeous.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: And so I'm curious ifStephen: "Rayon-wrapped bosom." That's not, that's not shabby.Chris: "Rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day." Yeah.So, I'm curious do you think the more-than-human world practices matrimony, and if so, what, if anything, might you have learned about matrimony from the more-than-human world?Stephen: I would say the reverse. I would say, we practice the more-than-human world in matrimony, not that the more-than-human world practices matrimony. We practice them, [01:20:00] matrimonially.Next. Okay. Or no? I just gonna say that, that's pretty good.Well, where do we get our best stuff from? Let's just wonder that. Do we get our best stuff from being our best? Well, where does that come from? And this is a bit of a barbershop mirrors situation here, isn't it? To, to back, back, back, back.If you're thinking of time, you can kind of get lost in that generation before, or before, before, before. And it starts to sound like one of them biblical genealogies. But if you think of it as sort of the flash point of multiple presences, if you think of it that way, then you come to [01:21:00] credit the real possibility that your best stuff comes from you being remembered by those who came before you.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: Now just let that sit for a second, because what I just said is logically-incompatible.Okay? You're being remembered by people who came before you. That's not supposed to work. It doesn't work that way. Right?"Anticipated," maybe, but "remembered?" How? Well, if you credit the possibility of multiple beginnings, that's how. Okay. I'm saying that your best stuff, your best thoughts, not the most noble necessarily. I would mean the most timely, [01:22:00] the ones that seem most needed, suddenly.You could take credit and sure. Why, why not? Because ostensibly, it arrives here through you, but if you're frank with yourself, you know that you didn't do that on command, right? I mean, you could say, I just thought of it, but you know in your heart that it was thought of and came to you.I don't think there's any difference between saying that and saying you were thought of.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: So, that's what I think the rudiments of old-order matrimony are. They are old people and their benefactors in the food chain and spiritually speaking. Old people and their benefactors, the best part of them [01:23:00] willed to us, entrusted and willed to us. So, when you are willing to enter into the notion that old-order matrimony is older than you, older than your feelings for the other person, older than your love, and your commitment, and your willingness to make the vows and all that stuff, then you're crediting the possibility that your love is not the beginning of anything.You see. Your love is the advent of something, and I use that word deliberately in its Christian notion, right? It's the oncomingness, the eruption into the present day of something, which turns out to be hugely needed and deeply unsuspected at the same time.I used to ask in the school, "can you [01:24:00] have a memory of something you have no lived experience of?" I think that's what the best part of you is. I'm not saying the rest of you is shite. I'm not saying that. You could say that, but I am saying that when I say "the best part of you," that needs a lot of translating, doesn't it?But the gist of it is that the best part of you is entrusted to you. It's not your creation, it's your burden, your obligation, your best chance to get it right. And that's who we are to those who came before us. We are their chance to get it right, and matrimony is one of the places where you practice the gentle art of getting it right.[01:25:00] Another decent reason to write a book.Chris: So, gorgeous. Wow. Thank you Stephen. I might have one more question.Stephen: Okay. I might have one more answer. Let's see.Chris: Alright. Would I be able to ask if dear Nathalie Roy could join us up here alongside your good man.So, returning to Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work. On page 94, [01:26:00] Stephen, you write that"hospitality of the radical kind is

Some people build their businesses one fire at a time. Sadiq Isu builds with the end in mind — and it shows. Brandon and I sat down with Sadiq to talk about what it looks like to lead with clarity. He's an immigrant who bought, built, and sold restoration companies — and did it on purpose. No scramble, no guesswork. Just steady, strategic growth with people and legacy at the core. This isn't theory. It's what happens when you trade short-term wins for long-term impact. Why You Should Listen: [08:22] From night shift to ownership — Sadiq's first few years in the U.S. [16:41] Why he builds every company from the exit backward [24:12] How he 2–3x'd his company's value before selling [26:00] The one trait that makes a partnership work [33:44] Faith, family, and values — not just talk, but operational strategy [40:35] What restoration leaders are missing — and how to course-correct [49:01] How to build a company that reflects who you are — not just what you do If you're building something to last — this one's worth a listen. -Chris Thank you sponsors! Liftify is for restorers who are looking to accelerate their online reviews. Consistent and fresh Google Reviews are critical to growing your online presence and establishing trust with your brand. Don't leave it to chance; partner with Liftify and let them capture the feedback your team has earned. https://www.liftify.com/floodlight AnswerForce transforms the restoration industry by providing round-the-clock answering solutions. Their skilled team ensures no call goes unanswered, capturing and qualifying leads, scheduling appointments, and enhancing customer satisfaction. Benefit from industry expertise, scalability, and customized scripting while saving costs compared to in-house solutions. With AnswerForce, your business growth potential becomes limitless. https://www.answerforce.com/floodlight C&R Magazine is the industry's oldest and longest-running media outlet. The team brings restorers all the current news, developments, education and resources that impact our business and the teams we lead. From print media to podcasts, C&R ensures the industry news you need is accessible from anywhere. https://candrmagazine.com Actionable Insights. The Actionable Xactimate Profile by Actionable Insights offers live guidance for more accurate and complete estimates in Xactimate, preventing costly errors and improving your team's workflow. It's an essential upgrade for enhanced estimating accuracy and efficiency. https://getinsights.org/floodlight Did you know... Only 30% of businesses listed for sale actually find a buyer? Even more striking, just 10% of those sell for the price their owners anticipated or higher, meaning only 3% of all business owners achieve their desired sale price. By focusing on understanding and enhancing your enterprise value, you can significantly boost your chances of joining that successful 3%. Business Health & Value Assessment Start Assessment Know Your Enterprise Value. See Your Potential Gaps. Complete this assessment in less than 15 minutes and receive a free assessment for your business that includes: A Lite Valuation Of Your Business Your Value Multiplier Per Your Industry Health Assessment Per Our PYB Methodology Business Value & Growth Roadmap Tailored For You Value Acceleration Strategies

Estimados oyentes, esta entrevista requirió que Aldo y Gloria se conectaran desde zonas rurales. Por lo tanto, la conexión a internet fue intermitente. Hay algunos momentos del episodio en los que puede resultar difícil comprender lo que se dice. Para mayor claridad, consulten la transcripción abajo. Gracias por su comprensión.Mis entrevistados en este episodio son Aldo Gonzalez y Gloria Romero López. Aldo es zapoteco de la comunidad de Guelatao de Juárez, Oaxaca, México. Ingeniero de formación, promueve el pleno reconocimiento y la implementación de los derechos de los pueblos indígenas. Trabaja en defensa de la biodiversidad local del maíz, especialmente de una variedad de maíz autofertilizante llamada olotón.Gloria es una mujer Mixteca que nacio en Lázaro Cardenas, Coicoyan de las Flores, Juxtlahuaca, Oaxaca. Curse sus estudios de ingeniería en Tecnologías de la información y comunicaciones en el Instituto Tecnológico Superior - San Miguel el Grande. Actualmente Realizó registros de Nacimientos en el Municipio de Coicoyan de las Flores. Ella gusta mucho platicar en Mixteco.Notas del Episodio* Las consecuencias al pueblo* El derecho a no migrar* Cambios atraves del NAFTA y el derecho a no migrar* “Yo tengo maiz, no necessito dinero”* La complejidad de las remesas* Las contradicciones y discriminaciones entre migrantes* La posibilidad del retorno masivo de migrantes* La violencia como causa de migracionTareaEl Derecho a No Migrar (Libro) - AmazonEl DERECHO A PERMANECER EN CASATranscripcion en espanol (English Below)Chris: [00:00:00] Bienvenido Aldo y bienvenida Gloria al podcast al fin de turismo. Gracias a ambos por estar dispuestos a hablar conmigo hoy sobre estos temas. Tengo curiosidad por saber si ustedes dos se están bien dispuestos a ofrecer una pequeña introducción o resumen sobre ustedes mismos.Ah, ado, no te escuchamos. Aldo: Bueno sobre mis viajes, bueno, no me dedico a viajar. Casi no tengo vacaciones. Pero por las cuestiones del trabajo me he tocado ir a diferentes lugares del mundo. Podríamos decir. Este básicamente por el trabajo que realizo? Más que ir a conocer los lugares a donde a donde me han invitado, lo que he hecho es ir a platicar con la gente que está en esos lugares sobre los problemas que tenemos aquí en la región.Los problemas que tenemos en México y [00:01:00] quien lo que me ha posibilitado, poder viajar a distintas partes ha sido el problema de la contaminación del maize transgénicos. Entonces eso ha hecho que, con esa bronca que peso en el año 2001, este yo haya tenido la posibilidad de ir a otros lugares a platicar un poco sobre ese problema en particular y muchos otros que se relacionan con él no o el tema de los transgénicos o el tema de los agroquímicos o el tema de el control de las corporaciones hacia la alimentación, hacia las semillas también.Entonces, digamos que en general, la mayoría de los viajes que yo he realizado están relacionados con estos acentos o con los derechos de los pueblos indígenas también. Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Y nos podrías decir donde te encuentres hoy? Aldo: Eh? Bueno, hoy estoy en Guelatao y es mi comunidad y estoy en las oficinas de la organización de mi organización, que es la unión de organizaciones de la Sierra Juarez Chris: Muchas gracias, [00:02:00] audo Aldo y gloria.Gloria: Sí, igual. Yo casi no he salido así del estado, pero sí conozco mucha gente que si emigra por lo regular a los estados unidos, es que es donde la mayoría de acá, pero casi no emigran mucho así hacia otros estados. Pero si la mayoría emigra para estados unidos, ya si tengo muchos vecinos, familia y mucho de acá de Coycoyan, si emigran más para allá que son para los estados unidos. Chris: Muy bien. Muchas gracias por eh, a tiempo con nosotros hoy. Entonces, aunque es temprano en la conversación, mi pregunta es sobre cómo han visto que el regreso de los migrantes a sus pueblos ha afectado a la comunidad en sus propios lugares o pueblos?Gloria: Sí en en cuando han cómo ha afectado la comunidad? Que muchos cuando regresan, pues ya tienen otras ideas, otras cultura, otra forma de ver la vida y a veces mucho ya no [00:03:00] quieren este participar así en las asambleas de la comunidad o ya vienen con otras técnicas, digamos, de cultivo y las técnicas que anteriormente habían acá, pues ya se van perdiendo y yo más cada veo como también esto afecta también en sus vidas personales, porque muchos cuando regresan ya regresan ya enfermos, cansados. En en el mejor de los casos, muchos ya regresan con dinero, no? Y eso hace que la gente que está en el pueblo, ve que como ellos les fue bien, pues también quieren emigrar y ya después ya son más personas que quieren migrar y ya se se hacen más y de idea de que, pues allá en estados unidos existe la oportunidad de que puedan mejorar sus vidas.Pero yo digo que así en ,general el impacto es un tanto positivo como [00:04:00] también negativo, porque igual, como digo, muchos regresan ya cansados, enfermos. Muchos igual dejan aquí sus familiares y cuanto regresan, pues sus familia ya no los encuentran, o algunos que dejan sus papás, cuando regresan sus papás ya, ya murieron o ha o esas situaciones que impacta así su vida personal.Chris: Gracias, Gloria. Aldo, querrías responder? Aldo: Aunque aquí en la comunidad de Guelatao, no hay muchos, no hay una migración tan alta como en otras comunidades cercanas. Digamos que una de las cosas que nosotros vemos que ha afectado, es que se elevan los precios, porque traen dinero, ya no trabajan en el campo. Entonces, para sus familias reciben recursos.Y pues eso hace que ellos tengan mayor capacidad para poder pagar a los mozos, por ejemplo, para que vayan a ser la [00:05:00] misma. Entonces, eso hace que el resto de la población pues se sienta afectada, porque no tiene los recursos para poder pagar lo que está pagando un migrante. Bueno, eso en alguna medida, está afectando la producción también de maíz, de por sí, ya la había afectado, porque muchos salen y dejan de trabajar la tierra. Los que quieren que se siga trabajando la tierra por parte de su familia mandan recursos, pero digamos que allí los costos se elevan para el resto de la población porque ellos pagan salarios más altos. Entonces, si alguien viene a la comunidad a trabajar, te va a cobrar más de lo que te cobraba anteriormente y muchos no lo pueden pagar.Entonces nos dice, "ya no voy a sembrar, porque el mozo está muy caro." No? Y eso es una afectación, pues directa, digamos a la economía de quien no migra. Y como hay pocos migrantes también, o digo [00:06:00] como hay poca gente que se que que se queda trabajar el campo en la comunidad, ya no hay suficientes personas para que se pueda hacer lo que nosotros llamamos gozona.O sea que vayamos entre todos a trabajar la parcela de cada uno de los que entran a ese tipo de trabajo. Bueno, también, eso es una afectación por la migración. No? Chris: Y Gloria, tú piensas que esa misma dinámica existe o ha pasaron en tu pueblo?Gloria: No, yo digo que igual, sí, estoy de acuerdo con lo que dicen algo y si sí, ha influenciado mucho de las personas que emigran si pagan más que los que no migran. Sí, si se ve mucho ese cambio.Chris: Gracias. Este pues parte de mi mi interés o cómo empecé, eh, acercándome a la cuestión de inmigración fue en parte por mi familia. [00:07:00] También eran migrantes de Macedonia y Grecia, y el otro lado de Inglaterra hacia Canadá hace como 50 años. Entonces este lo que he sentido, es que las dinámicas, las consecuencias de la migración en los pueblos y la gente que no migren, que hay patrones en el nivel mundial, y son casi bueno, muy parecidos. . Encontré un un libro en inglés, pero también existía en español. Eh? Que se llama El Derecho A No M igrar o The Right To Stay Home por David Bacon. Y ese libro, es titulado por una declaración que la gente de FIOB o La Frente Indígena de Organizaciones Binacionales hicieron en ahí en Santiago Juxtlahuaca en La Mixteca, Después de días de días de discutir sobre las [00:08:00] consecuencias de migraciones en los lugares de los migrantes, o sea, los pueblos originarios de los migrantes, resultó una declaración: "el derecho a no migrar conjunto con el derecho a migrar." Entonces tengo curiosidad por saber si ustedes podrían hablar sobre esos tiempos y la declaración, si saben cómo se formó o cómo se fue recibida en la mixteca o en la sierra norte de Oaxaca.Aldo: Bueno, nosotros aquí en la organización. Sí, hemos hablado del derecho a no migrar, porque estamos interesados en fortalecer la identidad de las personas que vivimos en nuestras comunidades. Pues, al final, somos parte de un pueblo más grande. No solamente es nuestra comunidad, sino que hay varias otras comunidades que pertenecemos al mismo pueblo, al pueblo zapoteca y en ese sentido, pues lo que estamos tratando [00:09:00] de hacer es que se fortalezcan nuestras comunidades, que se fortalezcan nuestra comunalidad, que es nuestra forma de organización comunitaria, y por esa razón es que preferiríamos que la gente no migra.Pero el problema es que ha habido un empobrecimiento muy brutal del campo en general, no solamente en México. Lo vemos también en otros países, que los que emigran principalmente son gente que sale del campo y van hacia los estados unidos a trabajar al campo en estados unidos, pero en condiciones que son completamente distintas a como se trabajaba en la comunidad. Incluso aquí en México, algunos van a trabajar en los campos del norte del país, también este en condiciones, pues terribles, con muchos agroquímicos.La gente regresa en algunos casos regresan enfermos, no? O regresan con las patas por delante, dijeron en el pueblo, porque [00:10:00] ya pues están muertos. Regresan nada más para que los entierren en la comunidad. Pero pues, prácticamente toda su vida la hicieron fuera, no? Entonces, quienes se van sufre porque añoran estar en la comunidad. Quieren comer lo que en la comunidad. Quieren escuchar la música de la comunidad. Quieren hacer la vida como si estuvieran en la comunidad, pero ya no está. Quienes se quedan a vivir fuera de la comunidad, digamos en estados unidos, sobre todo, pues sus hijos ya no los van a entender, porque ellos son educados de una manera distinta en escuelas que no tienen nada que ver con su cultura.Digamos que son colonizados mentalmente en las escuelas en estados unidos. Hay muy pocas escuelas que podríamos decir tienen la la eh capacidad de poder ser interculturales y enseñar en español y inglés y [00:11:00] enseñar la cultura de la comunidad y la cultura pues que se viven en los estados unidos, el individualismo.Entonces es muy complejo que un niño de inmigrantes, nacido en estados unidos pueda regresar a la comunidad, porque pues ya se adaptó a otra forma, a otra civilización, a otra forma de vida completamente distinta a la comunitaria. Y bueno, eso a nosotros nos preocupa. Estamos interesados en que la gente se quede.Sabemos que es difícil porque hay pocos recursos económicos en las comunidades, pero aun así pues, estamos haciendo el esfuerzo para que la gente se sienta orgullosa de ser de sus orígenes y no tengan la necesidad de migrar o en último de los casos, si tiene la necesidad de emigrar, por lo menos que tenga una referencia de lo que es su comunidad y la lleve a donde esté, [00:12:00] no?Porque pues, a veces, pues la gente lo hace por necesidad. Y esa necesidad, te lleva a a otros lugares, pero si tú te sientes orgulloso de tu identidad cultural, vas a llevar ese identidad donde tú estés. En el caso de la sierra, hay gente de varias comunidades que hace comunidad en donde está. Pero bueno, obviamente no lo va a poder hacer de la misma manera como si viviera en la comunidad, pero al menos algo se llevan. Otra forma de de ver el mundo se puede llevar también, aunque no la vas a poder practicar como como lo vas a hacer en tu comunidad, no? Y en general, digamos el trabajo que nosotros hacemos en la organización está enfocado a que se fortalezcan, pues distintos mecanismos para que la gente se quede.Por ejemplo, ahorita estamos trabajando en la en el establecimiento de la escuela de agroecología, para que los jóvenes tengan herramientas para [00:13:00] poder sembrar la tierra sin depender de los herbicidas de todos los agroquímicos que vienen con la revolución verde y que son los que utilizan normalmente en los estados unidos para la producción agrícola de la mayoría de las cosas que se hacen allá. Y dentro de este esquema de agroecología, pues obviamente que para nosotros el elemento cultural es es fundamental porque no podemos hacer solamente la agricultura fuera de nuestro contexto territorial-cultural. Entonces, todo esto tiene que estar englobado en esas, iniciativas que estamos tratando de impulsar eso.Chris: Mm ya. Gracias. Gracias, Aldo. Y Gloria, esa declaración surgió en la región en la Mixteca donde estás y pues me gustaría, saber si recuerdes la declaración, si era parte de la política o la gente de tu pueblo?Gloria: Bueno, me enteré que esta declaración surgió debido a las grandes [00:14:00] injusticias que sufre los migrantes. Como dice algo desde el memento en que salen de sus hogares hasta llegar allá en, digamos en estados unidos, donde tienen que trabajar igual y siguen sufriendo lo que son abusos físicos, psicológicos.Y qué más quisiéramos que la gente? Pues no, no emigrara no, pero sabemos que debido a sus necesidades emigran, pero ojalá y cuanto emigraran tuvieran esas so oportunidades de tan si quiere emigrar lo mejor posible que puedan y no pasar tu portando sufrimiento. Mm-hmm. La declaración surgió en esta zona de Juxtlahuaca, según lo que yo he encontrado igual, no sabía mucho sobre esta declaración, pero debido a esto ya cheque. Y sí, la declaración surgió especificamente por las injusticias que sufre la gente desde salir de su hogar, hasta llegar en estados unidos.Todos los abusos que llegan a [00:15:00] sufrir en el camino y hasta igual muchos hasta allá, aunque estén en el trabajo allá, también siguen sufriendo. Y por eso, pues, qué más quisiera la gente que no inmigrara no? Qué más quisiéramos que toda la gente tuviera la dicha de tener una vida digna en su país, en su tierra, para que no tuviera que emigrar, pero sucede, sucede que si emigran, sucede por muchas razones que a veces no están en nuestro alcance poderlos ayudar, pero digamos tan siquiera ofrecerles las oportunidades para que emigren de la mejor manera posible y no tengan tantas desventajas al memento de emigrar.Chris: Gracias. No, pues sí, el pueblo de mi papá, por ejemplo, era un pueblo campesino en Grecia y ya no esta abandonado, pero cuando si salieran hubiera 800 personas. Y el día de hoy hay como 50. Y hay como unos dos, tres campesinos todavía, entonces [00:16:00] este entiendo bien el de lo que dicen y que tan importante es de crear las condiciones para que la gente no necesitan migrarse si no necesitan.Pero me gustaría también preguntarles sobre el éxito quizás que ha existido. Entonces, si hubo una declaración en que salió de la verdad no es muy conocido, a pesar del éxito del libro y y esas cosas. No es muy conocido, por lo que he visto en México y por hablar con algunas personas de FIOB en estados unidos, pero vamos a eso en un memento. Quería preguntarles si hay programas o han visto ciertos éxitos dentro o a través de esas programas que, por ejemplo, que mencionaste Aldo y Glorias si en los pueblos hay como un cambio. Si algo ha cambiado en esos 15 años.Gloria: [00:17:00] Ajá de mi parte. Yo digo que sí. Sí, ha habido un cambio. Tal vez no un cambio directo. No ha habido la declaración. Sí, sí ha ayudado, nada más que nosotros, no lo hemos visto porque casi no se menciona. Pero si ha habido. Gracias a eso, pues se han formado programas, proyectos que se han apoyado a los migrantes, pero que muchas veces nuestros desconocemos.Pero sí, sí existe, digamos el impacto positivo que ha generado esa declaración.Aldo: Bueno, en el caso de la sierra Juárez, la sierra norte de Oaxaca, digamos, hay algunas comunidades que tienen un alto índice de migración y bueno, ahí en algunos casos, han llegado algunos programas, por ejemplo, como " dos por uno," donde los migrantes, digamos, ponen una parte de recursos, el estado pone otra parte o pone dos partes, digamos el gobierno federal, el gobierno del estado para hacer alguna obra en la comunidad.Pero realmente eso no está [00:18:00] solucionando ningún problema, no porque básicamente lo que está haciendo es obligar a los migrantes a que contribuyan a realizar alguna mejor alguna obra en su en su comunidad y cuando esos recursos los podían destinar para sus familias o para otra cosa o para cumplir con sus obligaciones comunitarias, pero no necesariamente realizando las acciones que el gobierno está obligado a rerealizar obras sociales o cosas por el estilo.Entonces, pues yo podría decir que de los programas que que han aparecido en los últimos años, pues tampoco nos han ayudado mucho a a frenar la migración. Por ejemplo, el programa del sexenio pasado más anunciado fue el de Sembrando Vida, no? Y si bien ese apoyo a algunos campesinos en algunas comunidades, no en todas, pues, podríamos [00:19:00] decir que si los capturó para que no migraran hacia los estados unidos, pero dejaron de sembrar maíz cuando inicialmente el programa este era para que sembraran más maíz. Nos pusieron a sembrada arbolitos, no árboles que muchos casos ni siquiera son de la región que no iban a pegar o si iban a pegar, no iban a ser útiles aquí, porque venían de otras regiones o si crecían, ya no iba se ya no iba a poder cultivarse maíz en esos lugares porque les iban a hacer sombra al maíz.Nosotros vivimos en laderas. Aquí no hay lugares planos como en estados unidos, no? Entonces, digamos que programas gubernamentales que hayan beneficiado en alguna medida. El flujo migratorio que hayan hecho que haya menos migratorio, pues tampoco se ven. No se ven con mucha claridad. Nosotros vemos que se siguen estableciendo políticas para destruir el tejido comunitario, para expulsar a la población [00:20:00] del campo hacia las ciudades o hacia los estados unidos.Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Y has mencionado? Que tu trabajo tiene mucho que ver con la regeneración de maíz y obviamente maíz criollo o sea local también. Porque es tan importante para el pueblo frente de las consecuencias de la migración? Aldo: El Maiz para nosotros es un elemento muy importante. Nosotros podríamos decir que es el corazón de la comunidad porque lo vamos a comer todos los días. Nosotros decimos "nativo". Les dicen c"criollo" desde las instituciones de muchos lugares por costumbre, pero la palabra está mal empleada. Nosotros decimos que son nuestros maíces nativos. Y no es lo mismo comer una tortilla de maíz nativo, un elote de nuestros maices, a que comprar un elote que ahora venden en la ciudad que fue hecho con [00:21:00] maíces híbridos o que tengamos que comer tortillas hechas con maíces transgen. Desgraciadamente, en los últimos años, yo creo que no solamente pasa en la sierra, sino en muchos otros lugares del país, se ha incrementado el uso de las tortillerías y entonces ya no sabemos con qué maíz están produciendo esas tortillas, pero no se pueden comparar con las tortillas de nuestros maíces hechas con nuestras propias tecnologías. No? Entonces, yo creo que el maíz para nosotros, además de ser nuestro alimento principal o el que más consumimos, también nos da identidad. El maíz nos convoca, por ejemplo, a trabajar juntos, cosa que en estados unidos, no lo hacen. Todos ellos contratan migrantes para que hagan su trabajo, no? Y ellos van a producir lo que vayan a producir para vender aquí.El maíz que se siembra [00:22:00] normalmente es para consumir. Casi no se vende el maíz. Y por ejemplo, ahora que están poniendo precios de garantía, no? Precio garantía las de MXN $6. En nuestras comunidades, el maíz, no lo puedes vender a MXN $6, o sea, por lo menos, lo vendes a MXN $20, si es que lo vendes, porque es el esfuerzo de tu trabajo y también por la misma gente que la comunidad o incluso por los migrantes o por las familias inmigrantes, es valorado como una, un un alimento que es completamente distinto a el maíz que se compra en la tienda, en la CONASUPO o en Diconsa o en cualquier tienda comercial o qué viene de la tortilla? Entonces hay un aprecio especial por nuestros maíces. Eso es importante, pero cada vez se está produciéndo menos. Ahora anteriormente quien tenía maíz era considerado rico. [00:23:00] Desde una perspectiva comparado de hoy, quien tiene maíz es considerado tonto o pobre porque no tiene dinero. Sin embargo, pues sobre todo los campesinos viejos que dicen bueno, pues "si yo tengo maíz, no necesito dinero" para vivir porque tengo el alimento suficiente. Incluso anteriormente, por ejemplo, cuando la gente tenía que realizar sus cargos comunitarios que no eran pagados ahora en muchas comunidades, han empezado a pagar el cargo. Quien podía ocupar el cargo era un agente mayor, que sus hijos ya habían crecido, pero que además, él tenía maíz para no pedirle favor a nadie de cómo iba a solventar la alimentación de su familia por el año o el tiempo que tuviera que estar al frente del cargo comunitario.Entonces, digamos que el maíz también hace comunidad? Y con estas políticas, falta de apoyos o de [00:24:00] eliminación de apoyo, el campo mexicano están lastimando también nuestras formas de organización communitaria. Eso.Chris: Qué fuerte. Sí, me acordé en lo que dijiste Aldo, unas palabras que que escribió el filósofo Ivan Illich y no sé si es exactamente lo que escribió, pero básicamente dijo que durante casi toda la historia de la humanidad, la mayor medida de la pobreza era si uno tenía o no que comprar su alimento, su comida. Es decir, si tenías comprar tu comida en el pasado, era un señal, una medida de de pobreza, de decir que buenas eres pobre si tienes que comprar. Gloria, tienes algo para agregar a ese punto. Gloria: Ese punto no, no,Chris: [00:25:00] está bien, está bien. Pues me gustaría también seguir con ese lo que mencionaste Aldo, de los recursos y lo que se llaman remisas y por lo que he visto las estadísticas, no dicen que es más o menos seis porciento de la economía mexicana está compuesta por remesas enviadas por familiares o amigos en estados unidos. En algunos de los pueblos a los que me han invitado, me han dicho que el pueblo no sobreviviría sin remesas. En otros. Me han dicho que el pueblo sobreviviría mucho mejor si la gente no se fuera. Este es un tema muy complejo y mi pregunto. Si ustedes dos podrían hablar sobre esa complejidad que han visto en sus pueblos y en otros lugares como resultado de las remesas.Y pues siento que se sale [00:26:00] como ese tema a una pregunta vital o central que es como si una persona puede o no ser responsable de un lugar estando al otro lugar?Gloria: Yo digo que sí. Las remesas si han influido positivamente porque gracias a ellos ha habido muchos negocios, comercio y siento que si le quitáramos esas remesas, esos negocios se caería, porque el dinero que mucha gente que va a gastar en esos negocios es dinero que sus familiares envían de estados unidos. Gracias a ello, pues compran sus alimentos, los materiales que ocupan desde útiles escolares hasta cosas personales que ocupe. Y si en las remesas, yo siento que sí, estaría complicado porque como hasta ahorita, no hay suficientes oportunidades dentro del país para que pueda satisfacer esa demanda, yo siento que si las [00:27:00] quitáramos, sí, sería un impacto muy fuerte negativamente.Aldo: Decía yo que el lunes es el día de mercado en Ixtlan. Es la comunidad más grande de esta región. Y este cuando va uno llegando a isl, lo primero que ve uno es la fila en el banco. Es una fila mayor que cualquier otro día. La mayoría de la gente que está formada ahí va a recibir remesas y luego la va a gastar en en el mercado. En el mejor de los casos, pues sería bueno que comprara cosas de la región, pero muchas de las cosas que compran también son procesadas. Vienen de fuera, no? Incluso una cosa que da hasta miedo a veces es ver cómo la la señora se llevan sus paquetes de maruchan, no? Entonces dice eso es lo [00:28:00] que van a comer los niños. Y sí están cambiándole la alimentación a los niños porque es más fácil poner hervir la sopa que ya viene en esa caja, le echa en agua, se hierve y hasta la comida.Entonces, si se reciben recursos que sostienen a la familia, pero nos están cambiando la forma de vida, porque pues no puedes sobrevivir como estaban haciendo anteriormente nuestros antepasados, nuestros papás, nuestros abuelos, pero nos están cambiando la vida y nos están haciendo dependientes del dinero. Nos están haciendo individualistas también porque ahora tener dinero, pues puede ser una cosa de prestigio, no?Pero realmente las remesas no están resolviendo un problema de fondo en la comunidad. Están resolviendo un problema de una sobrevivencia impuesta, no? [00:29:00] Porque te quitan tu forma de ser, te quitan tu forma de vivir comunitaria y te imponen una forma de vida individual que se basa en el dinero y no en las relaciones familiares o las relaciones comunitarias que existían anteriormente. Entonces, digamos que las remesas te van a ayudar a vivir. Te van a ayudar a comprar cosas, no? Muchas de esas cosas no van a ser locales. O sea, llega el dinero a la comunidad y se va de la comunidad para el que compró cosas fuera de la comunidad y que vino a vender a este lugar, no? Pero, entonces está ayudando podríamos decir que la economía capitalista no está ayudando a la economía comunitaria. Aun cuando sean gentes de la comunidad las que vendan las cosas, no? Digamos que puede ser que una parte se quede en la comunidad porque el comerciante de la comunidad fue a la ciudad, compró las cosas y las trajo aquí.El se va a quedar con su ganancia, pero finalmente le está haciendo el trabajo al [00:30:00] capitalista que produjo esas cosas y las llevó a la comunidad a través de ese comerciante. Entonces las remesas se están ayudando a fortalecer el sistema capitalista y a destruir el sistema comunitario.Chris: Anoche, un amigo me ha contado que hay algunos pueblos aquí en Oaxaca que apenas se juntaron en sus asambleas para platicar sobre la posibilidad que la amenaza del memento de Trump en estados unidos para deportar todos los migrantes.Bueno, no todos los migrantes, pero los migrantes que no conformen con el mundo de Trump ahi en estados unidos. Y qué pasaría? O sea, la gente en las asambleas están hablando de qué pasaría si eso pasaría? Si, de repente hay cientos, si no miles, de compañeros y [00:31:00] familiares que de repente lleguen de nuevo al pueblo y obviamente sin ese esos fondos? Quizás es un poco de lo que pasó en la pandemia. También hubo muchas historias de gente de del norte allá, volviendo a sus pueblos. Y se empezaron a trabajar en las milpas, pero luego se fueron de nuevo a al norte pues a trabajar. Gloria: Sí, bueno, si eso digamos si esa amenaza se llegara a cumplir y todos los migrantes regresaran, yo siento que sería muy complicado para el país sostener a todos esos migrantes, porque hasta ahorita no hay tantas oportunidades. Digamos si hay un programa del más conocido sembrando vida, pero está cumpliendo muy poquito el trabajo que debe de cumplir.Y si te regresaran todos los migrantes nos quedaríamos como que atascados como sería un impacto, yo siento que, negativo, porque no tenemos la posibilidad de de [00:32:00] recibirlos. No tenemos las oportunidades, no tenemos programas, no tenemos, hay muchas cosas que no nos van a favorecer, porque ellos, si ellos regresan, van a ver muchos migrantes, pero sin un sustento, sin algo que los pueda sostener para que tengan una vida más o menos como la que ya tenían cuando estaban allá.Y porque no solo va a afectar a ellos, sino también sus familias que tienen acá al ver que sus familiares que estaban allá ya van a estar acá.Chris: Gracias. Gloria. Sí, Aldo.Aldo: Bueno, algunos empiezan a preguntar a mí. Nosotros vemos que, incluso en estados unidos, hay algunos migrantes que votaron por Trump. Muchos que votaron por Trump. Platicando con algunas personas digamos que los que pagan impuestos y ya tienen su residencia en estados unidos, ven a los migrantes documentados como estorbo, como una competencia [00:33:00] desleal, porque ellos no están obligados a pagar impuestos. Y entonces no.Porque es parte del modelo, el model modelo capitalista diseñado. Digamos que entre los mismos mexicanos inmigrantes, hay contradicciones, hay discriminación. Digamos un migrante que ya es residente, a veces no va a apoyar a un migrante illegal porque puede quitar el empleo.Y bueno, esto nos meten en situaciones complejas al final de cuentas, porque, incluso estos migrantes votaron por Donald Trump. Estarían de acuerdo en que deportaran a los migrantes similares.Es un extremo. Ahora, los migrantes en general, si son deportados, los migrantes indocumentados y son deportados, van afectar la economía también de los estados unidos? No? Porque hay muchas cosas que en estados unidos dejarían de funcionar, si no hay inmigrantes. [00:34:00] O sea, quién va a cuidar a los viejitos, por ejemplo? Muchos migrantes, sobre todo mujeres se dedican al cuidado de personas enfermas o personas mayores de edad que no tienen familia o que si tienen familia de todas formas, los mantienen prácticamente en el abandono o viven de su pensión y ya no pueden hacer su vida normal porque tienen algún padecimiento, etcétera.Y necesitan una gente que las corre Normalmente son mexicanos o son migrantes indocumentados los que hacen ese tipo de trabajo. Este sector de la población de estados unidos se debería afectar. Los granjeros que siembran, digamos, para vender los productos en el mercado de estados unidos, la mayoría contratan migrantes no documentados.Entonces ellos también van a tener un problema de que su producción agrícola va a bajar porque no va a ver migrantes. Y hay otros sectores de la economía en estados unidos que también resultarían afectados. No sé [00:35:00] si Trump no lo está viendo o se hace el que no lo ve o es solamente un amague, como quien dice.Y esta es como una amenaza que no va a cumplir porque finalmente eso afectaría la economía de los estados unidos. Si llegara a hacerse, aunque fuera de manera parcial, que es lo más probable, pues los migrantes que fueran deportados hacia México, no sabemos si traigan remesas o no. No sabemos si hayan tenido ahorros o no.Puede ser que algunos sí, puede ser que algunos no. Muchos de los que regresan ya no están acostumbrados a vivir en comunidad o en su comunidad. No están acostumbrados a vivir a realizar las actividades en el campo y preferirían vivir en la ciudad, pero en la ciudad no va a haber empleo. No va a haber suficientes empleos para que ellos puedan hacer una vida menos [00:36:00] rural, digamos en su regreso a México.Algunos otros dicen bueno, pues si a mí me deporten, pues yo me regreso a sembrar maiz y no pasa nada, pero no creo que sea la mayoría o no creo que sea la totalidad, al menos no los que vayan a regresar a su comunidad. Quienes han trabajado desde niños en la comunidad y saben realizarlas el trabajo de campo, no van a tener problema, pero quienes ya se acostumbraron a realizar actividades que no son agrícolas y han sido obligados a migrar, pues iban a tener ese problema de que no van a saber que hacer cuando retornen a este país o cuando los obliguen a retornar a este país.Chris: Si yo recuerdo leyendo un libro hace unos años, y era un poco raro porque el libro era publicado en 1940. Y fue una historia social de la migración llegando en estados unidos en el [00:37:00] siglo anterior y básicamente dijo que si llegaron como los alemanes o una ola de migrantes alemanes. Los que ya estuvieran allá odiaban los alemanes porque los alemanes estaban listos a pagar más renta y aceptar menos ingresos de trabajo. Y luego otro 10 años, pasa no? Y quizás ya hay más alemanes ahora, pero ya vienen los ucráneos y los alemanes están enojados porque los u cráneos están listos para pagar más renta y trabajar por menos. Y luego los los alemanes se van a la periferia o se encuentran nuevos pueblos o ciudades. Se migran, básicamente. Y es un ciclo que hasta la fecha vemos en lo que dijiste Aldo respeto de la gente que ya tiene residencia en estados unidos, por ejemplo, los mexicanos diciendo que, "pues ya no, ya tengo el mío, [00:38:00] entonces nadie más," no? Ese tiene una historia muy, muy largo.Y además, la cosa que yo crecía en en Toronto en Canadá. Canadá está conocido y también se promueven el país como un país de multiculturalismo. O sea, la gran mayoría de nuestros papás son de otros países. O sea, es un país de migrantes. Pero, crecimos con este idea nacional que la población del país siempre estuvo disminuyendo, o sea menos y menos gente cada generación. Entonces, por eso teníamos que invitar y aceptar un montón de inmigrantes cada año, o sea, un montón de montón. Pero leyendo las historias sociales, me di cuenta que, pues esas invitaciones y sentido de estar abierto al otro, no era parte de la compasión del país canadiense.Era porque [00:39:00] necesitaban cada vez más, entrecomillas "labor barato", o sea, gente que estaban dispuestos a trabajar los trabajos que nadie más querían hacer y por dinero que nadie más querían trabajar. Y entonces el estado tenían que seguir invitando, trayendo gente de afuera para hacer ese trabajo.Y la pregunta sería, entonces quizás, qué haríamos? Como dijo gloria, para asegurar que hay un trabajo digno, hay una vida digna para la gente. Y lo digo porque cuando hablé con un representante de FIOB que era representante de FIOB en 2009 durante la declaración a no migrar. Y le pregunté entonces, por qué esa declaración no ha salido viral o popular en estados unidos y otros países? Y me dijo "ah, bueno, no, es que en estados unidos, la cosa es que si eres de la parte izquierda de la [00:40:00] política, no podrías criticar nada de la migración." O sea, toda la migración es bonito, no? No hay un espejo a las realidades y pero si te criticas la migración en cualquiera manera, eres automáticamente parte de la derecha o ultra derecha. Eres un hijo de Trump, etcétera. Aldo: De hecho, por ejemplo, Trump, no podríamos decir que sea un nativo americano, verdad? Los nativos americanos no tienen el pelo anaranjado. Entonces el vino de otro país, vino de Europa. Y bueno a la mejor ahora ya se siente estadounidense y no quiere que otros vayan a ese país de manera ilegal, como a lo mejor sus papás llegaron a los estados unidos a pagar rentas caras y a recibir salarios bajos. Pero pues él ya se hizo al modo capitalista de estados unidos. Tiene la [00:41:00] nacionalidad de los estados unidos y ahora no quiere que otros migren. Pero tampoco creo que quiera reconocer derechos de los nativos americanos que son quienes han vivido ahí por muchas más generaciones que las de la familia de tronco de muchos otros que se sienten estadounidenses ahora. Estaba viendo hace unos días un video de como viven, algunas familias en Mongolia. Mongolia es un país en donde todavía hay pastores nómadas que no viven en una ciudad o en una comunidad agraria. Viven en un territorio amplio y van siguiendo a su ganado. Que va cambiando de lugar, defendiendo de la estación del año.Ellos no tienen necesidad de emigrar. O sea, ellos han hecho su vida así desde hace mucho tiempo por muchas generaciones. E incluso no tienen la necesidad de tener los recursos económicos para [00:42:00] comprar cosas porque no necesitan tantas cosas. Está en una tienda de campaña para poder irse para otro lado que a lo mejor los muebles más básicos para poder vivir adentro de su tienda de campaña y se acabo.Y eso no quiere decir que sean pobres. El capitalismo mide la pobreza en función de los ingresos económicos. Si ganas menos de al día, pues eres una persona muy pobre. Pero. Pues el dinero no te va a solucionar todos los problemas del mundo. Entonces, creo que tenemos que empezar a mirarnos de otra manera y ver que los recursos económicos no son la única solución para la vida.Nos han hecho creer eso en los últimos años. Entonces, hoy, quien no tiene dinero es pobre, no? Pero creo que hay otras formas en que hemos vivido la mayor parte de la humanidad en este planeta que no eran como esta forma de vida capitalista que hoy nos están imponiendo, no? Y nos la están imponiendo porque [00:43:00] pues cada vez son menos gente las que quieren controlar la economía mundial.O sea, nosotros lo vemos. Cada vez son menos compañías tras nacionales las que tienen, por ejemplo, el negocio de las semillas y las semilleros que había en México hasta hace 30 años, ya desaparecieron en estos últimos años. Y ahora los tienen cuatro grandes empresas a nivel mundial. Pues obviamente que ellos quieren tener el negocio de las semillas y si no quieren que nadie más tenga negocio de las semillas o que los campesinos no tengan sus propias semillas para poder sobrevivir, entonces están expropiando la posibilidad de generar una vida de una manera distinta, no? Entonces ellos nos van a obligar o nos quieren obligar a que hagamos la vida como dependiendo de lo que ellos nos puedan vender, y desaparecer esas otras formas de sobrevivir en el planeta.Yo creo que esas otras formas, aunque muy deterioradas, [00:44:00] muy golpeadas, siguen vigentes en muchos lugares y habrá gente que las quiera reivindicar, nosotros las queremos reivindicar y creemos que hay otra forma de hacer la vida en esta planeta. Hay muchas otras formas de hacer la vida en tu planeta que son.Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Este Gloria, te gustaría agregar algo? Gloria: Sí, bueno, igual por parte de lo como lo que afecta también a que la declaración no sea tan famosa, es porque, como dice Aldo, es que estamos tan enfocados en el capitalismo que si por un memento, no nos enfocáramos en ese ámbito del capitalismo, yo siento que, pues todos dirían que tienen una vida digna en sus tierras y se quedarían más, pero como todos estamos enfocados en lo material, en el dinero y todo eso, pues decimos que para qué vamos a dar tanto mención a la declaración, si no es útil, [00:45:00] supuestamente? Pero es porque hemos tenido tanto esa idea del capitalismo de que siempre queremos ver dinero, todo lo que implica el capitalismo, y nos olvidamos un poco de lo que realmente significa tener la vida digna, porque pues somos esos ricos en muchas cosas, no? Tenemos agua, tenemos tierra. Y podríamos ser felices con eso. Pero igual no nos conformamos con eso. Siempre queremos más porque esas son las ideas que el capitalismo nos ha metido. Mm-hmm.Chris: Gracias, gloria. Igual, para mí, como aunque he pasado mucho tiempo, visitando y trabajando unos pueblos de Oaxaca, creciendo en un metrópolis urbano, occidental moderno, etcétera, yo tengo que imaginar una vida digna. Yo no crecí en una sociedad donde podían apuntar a un ejemplar de una vida digna. [00:46:00] En ese libro que escribió de David be David bacon sobre la ola o caravana más reciente de inmigrantes que se dirigen a los estados unidos, esta vez de este Venezuela, se mencionó en 2023 creo, se estima que 200,000 migrantes ingresaron a los estados unidos caras. Teniendo en cuenta esas cifras y las diversas crisis que obligan a las personas a mudarse en nuestros tiempos, qué consejos o comentarios les daría a las personas, ya sean campesinos indígenas o modernos que ven la migración como la única respuesta?Gloria: Sí. Sí. Bueno, el consejo que yo daría así sería que si tienen las posibilidades, como digo, si tienen.Aunque no [00:47:00] tengan mucho, no, pero si me nací en una zona donde no hay violencia donde más o menos, si pueden vivir más o menos, si pueden tener una vida digna o a lo que se puede asemejar a una vida digna, pues que se queden ahí. No hay necesidad. Bueno, sí. Sabes que si hay necesidad, pero que no se vean tan forzados a migrar?Porque pues hay es complicado, es difícil todo lo que van a sufrir toda lo que implica, como digo, también un principio, muchos emigran para mejorar sus vidas, pero igual o mejorar la vida de sus familias. Pero muchos cuando regresan esas familias por las que se fueron, cuando regresan, esa familia ya no la encuentran. Ya está muerta. Muchos que igual tengo motivos que igual emigraron. Y se fueron para dar mejor vida a sus papás, pero sus papás ya murieron y ellos todavía siguen sin regresar. Y la vida a y se supuestamente le [00:48:00] iban a dar mejor vida, pero nunca sucedió. Simplemente están sobreviviendo, pero nunca, nunca cumplieron ese sueño.Y yo digo, el consejo que yo les daría es que si tiene la posibilidad de tener una vida digna en sus tierras, pues que se queden ahí y que no vean la migración como el gran sueño, como como todos este lo imaginamos, no?Aldo: Bueno, yo creo que la migración no es una decisión de las personas que se ven obligadas a migrar. Hay muchos factores. Estados unidos necesita mano de obra barata, como tú decías. Entonces, pues aunque Trump diga que no quiere emigrantes, si quiere migrantes. Y lo que sucede en Venezuela, pues al final de cuentas es parte de las políticas que se hicieron en estados unidos, no? Ahí metieron a ese país en crisis.Y luego llegó un ticket de los estados unidos [00:49:00] y les dijo a sus paisanos que se inmigraban hacia los estados unidos. Iban a ser bien recibidos. Nunca se imaginaron el calvario que tenían que sufrir en el tránsito para poder llegar a estados unidos. Y cuando llegan a estados unidos, pues tampoco son bien recibidos como les habían ofrecido que sería su bienvenida, no?Y en México, nosotros vemos ahora en nuestro país, por ejemplo, como se ha incrementado de manera exponencial la violencia en las zonas rurales. Esa violencia no solamente está obligando a la gente a migrar, sino que, pues los está desalojando de sus tierras, no? Y normalmente esto se hace porque, hay otros intereses en esas tierras y las quieren, quieren las tierras, pero las quieren sin gente.Y entonces se va a implementar el mecanismo de la violencia para que esa [00:50:00] gente se vea obligada a salir y por lo tanto, se vea obligada a migrar a donde sea, porque ya no puede vivir en paz en la comunidad donde nació, donde se acostumbra a vivir, no? Entonces la migración no es un fenómeno natural. Es un fenómeno que ha sido creado por el mismo capital, que lo necesita para sobrevivir como sistema capitalista, y que está quitándole la posibilidad de vivir bien a la gente que vive en lugares muy remotos donde no necesitaban incluso de su existencia como sistema.Eso.Chris: Gracias, Aldo. Sí, seguramente las causas de la migración muchas veces vienen del motor de capitalismo de [00:51:00] guerra, plagas y hambre.Y podemos pensar más en que hay ciertas personas que que tienen que emigrar, que tienen que emigrar. No tienen opción. Y además, cuando se emigran y las noticias del dinero, del prestigio, privilegio, vuelve a los pueblos, a las familias que también el tema puede quedar en asuntos de ambición, envidia, deseo, que la gente que tiene opción puede entender las consecuencias a su propio pueblo, a su propia gente, a los que se quedan o dejan atrás, no? Y bueno, me gustaría en el nombre de nuestros oyentes, agradecerles muchísimo por sus tiempo y [00:52:00] presencia hoy por sus reflexiones y consideraciones por sus trabajos y compromisos en el mundo.Lo agredezco mucho. Les agradezco mucho. Y hasta la próxima, gracias, Aldo. Gracias, Gloria. Gloria: Igual, gracias! Aldo: Pues mucho gusto. Mucho gusto. Gloria. Nos vemos. Chris, si. English TranscriptionChris: [00:00:00] Welcome Aldo and welcome Gloria to the podcast the end of tourism. Thank you both for being willing to talk with me today about these topics. I'm curious if you two would be willing to give a little introduction or summary about yourselves.Ah, ado, we didn't hear you.Aldo: Well, about my trips, well, I don't travel. I hardly have any vacations. But because of work, I have had to go to different places in the world. We could say, basically because of the work I do?Rather than going to see the places where I have been invited, what I have done is go and talk to the people who are in those places about the problems we have here in the region.The problems we have in Mexico and [00:01:00] who has allowed me to travel to different places has been the problem of contamination by transgenic corn. So that has made it so that, with that anger that weighed on me in 2001, I have had the opportunity to go to other places to talk a little about that particular problem and many others that are related to it, not the issue of transgenics or the issue of agrochemicals or the issue of corporate control over food, over seeds as well.So, let's say that in general, most of the trips I have made are related to these accents or to the rights of indigenous peoples as well.Chris: Thanks, Aldo. And could you tell us where you are today?Aldo: Eh? Well, today I am in Guelatao and it is my community and I am in the offices of my organization, which is the union of organizations of the Sierra Juarez.Chris: Thank you very much, [00:02:00] Hello Aldo and Gloria.Gloria: Yes, the same. I have rarely left the state, but I do know a lot of people who usually emigrate to the United States, which is where most of them live, but they don't emigrate much to other states. But most of them do emigrate to the United States. I have a lot of neighbors, family, and a lot of people from here in Coycoyan. They do emigrate more to the United States.Chris: Okay. Thank you so much for uh, being on time with us today. So, although it's early in the conversation, my question is about how have you seen the return of migrants to their villages affect the community in your own places or towns?Gloria: Yes, in how long has it affected the community? That many when they return, well, they already have other ideas, other culture, another way of seeing life and sometimes many no longer [00:03:00] want to participate in the community assemblies or they come with other techniques, let's say, of cultivation and the techniques that they had here before, well, they are already lost and I see more and more how this also affects their personal lives, because many when they return they already return sick, tired.In the best of cases, many of them return with money, right? And that makes the people who are in the town see that since they did well, they also want to emigrate and then there are more people who want to migrate and they become more and they have the idea that, well, there is an opportunity for them to improve their lives in the United States.But I say that in general the impact is both positive and [00:04:00] negative, because as I say, many return tired, sick. Many also leave their families here and when they return, their families can no longer find them, or some who leave their parents, when they return their parents have already died or there are situations like that that impact their personal life.Chris: Thanks, Gloria. Aldo, would you like to respond?Aldo: Although there aren't many of them here in the community of Guelatao, there isn't as much migration as in other nearby communities. Let's say that one of the things that we see that has affected us is that prices are rising, because they bring money and no longer work in the fields. So, they receive resources for their families.And that makes them have a greater capacity to pay the waiters, for example, so that they can be the same . So, that makes the rest of the population feel affected, because they do not have the resources to be able to pay what a migrant is paying. Well, that to some extent is affecting corn production as well, in itself, it had already affected it, because many leave and stop working the land. Those who want their family to continue working the land send resources, but let's say that there the costs rise for the rest of the population because they pay higher salaries. So, if someone comes to the community to work, they will charge you more than they charged you before and many cannot pay it.Then he tells us, "I'm not going to plant anymore, because the boy is too expensive." Right?And that has a direct impact on the economy of those who do not migrate.And since there are few migrants too, or I say [00:06:00] since there are few people who stay to work the fields in the community, there are no longer enough people to be able to do what we call gozona.So let's all work together on the part of each of those who enter this type of work. Well, that is also an impact of migration, right?Chris: And Gloria, do you think that the same dynamic exists or has happened in your town?Gloria: No, I say that it is the same, yes, I agree with what they say and yes, it has greatly influenced the people who emigrate if they pay more than those who do not migrate. Yes, that change is very noticeable.Chris: Thank you. Well, part of my interest or how I started, uh, approaching the immigration issue was partly because of my family. [00:07:00] They were also migrants from Macedonia and Greece, and the other side from England to Canada about 50 years ago. So what I've felt is that the dynamics, the consequences of migration on the people and the people who don't migrate, that there are patterns at the global level, and they are almost, well, very similar.I found a book in English, but it also existed in Spanish. Eh? It's called The Right Not to Migrate or The Right To Stay Home by David Bacon. And that book, it's titled after a declaration that the people of FIOB or the Indigenous Front of Binational Organizations made there in Santiago Juxtlahuaca in La Mixteca,After days and days of discussing the consequences of migration in the places of the migrants, that is, the native peoples of the migrants, a declaration was made: "the right not to migrate together with the right to migrate." So I'm curious to know if you could talk about those times and the declaration, if you know how it was formed or how it was received in the Mixteca or in the northern mountains of Oaxaca.Aldo: Well, here in the organization, yes, we have talked about the right not to migrate, because we are interested in strengthening the identity of the people who live in our communities. Well, in the end, we are part of a larger community. It is not only our community, but there are several other communities that belong to the same people, to the Zapotec people, and in that sense, what we are trying to do is [00:09:00] What we have to do is strengthen our communities, strengthen our communality, which is our form of community organization, and for that reason we would prefer that people do not migrate.But the problem is that there has been a brutal impoverishment of the countryside in general, not only in Mexico. We also see it in other countries, that those who emigrate are mainly people who leave the countryside and go to the United States to work in the fields in the United States, but in conditions that are completely different from how they worked in the community. Even here in Mexico, some go to work in the fields in the north of the country , too . It is in terrible conditions , with many agrochemicals.People come back, in some cases they come back sick, right? Or they come back with their feet up, they said in the village, because [00:10:00] they are already dead. They come back just to be buried in the community. But well, they practically lived their whole life outside, right?So, those who leave suffer because they long to be in the community. They want to eat what they eat in the community. They want to listen to the music of the community. They want to live as if they were in the community, but it is no longer there. Those who stay to live outside the community, let's say in the United States, especially, because their children will no longer understand them, because they are educated in a different way in schools that have nothing to do with their culture.Let's say that they are mentally colonized in schools in the United States. There are very few schools that we could say have the capacity to be intercultural and teach in Spanish and English and [00:11:00] teach the culture of the community and the culture that is experienced in the United States, individualism.So it is very difficult for a child of immigrants, born in the United States, to return to the community, because he or she has already adapted to another way, to another civilization, to another way of life completely different from the community. And well, that worries us. We are interested in people staying.We know that it is difficult because there are few economic resources in the communities, but even so, we are making the effort so that people feel proud of their origins and do not have the need to migrate or, in the last case, if they have the need to emigrate, at least they have a reference of what their community is like and take it to wherever they are, [00:12:00] right?Because sometimes people do it out of necessity. And that necessity takes you to other places, but if you feel proud of your cultural identity, you will take that identity wherever you are. In the case of the mountains, there are people from various communities who make a community where they are. But obviously they won't be able to do it in the same way as if they lived in the community, but at least they take something with them.You can also take another way of seeing the world, although you won't be able to practice it like you would in your community, right? And in general, let's say the work we do in the organization is focused on strengthening different mechanisms so that people stay.For example, right now we are working on establishing an agroecology school, so that young people have the tools to [00:13:00] be able to plant the land without depending on herbicides and all the agrochemicals that come with the green revolution and that are the ones normally used in the United States for agricultural production of most of the things that are done there.And within this agroecology framework, obviously for us the cultural element is fundamental because we cannot do only agriculture outside of our territorial-cultural context. So, all of this has to be included in these initiatives that we are trying to promote.Chris: Mm, yes. Thank you. Thank you, Aldo. And Gloria, that statement arose in the Mixteca region where you are and I would like to know if you remember the statement, if it was part of the politics or the people of your town?Gloria: Well, I learned that this statement came about because of the great [00:14:00] injustices that migrants suffer. As it says something from the moment they leave their homes until they get there, let's say in the United States, where they have to work the same and continue to suffer physical and psychological abuse.And what else would we want from people? Well, no, they wouldn't emigrate, no, but we know that they emigrate due to their needs, but I hope that those who emigrate have those opportunities so that if they want to emigrate as best they can and not go through suffering. Mm-hmm.The declaration arose in this area of Juxtlahuaca, according to what I have found, I did not know much about this declaration, but because of this I have already checked. And yes, the declaration arose specifically because of the injustices that people suffer from leaving their homes until arriving in the United States.All the abuses that they [00:15:00] end up suffering along the way and even many of them there, even if they are working there, they also continue to suffer. And for that reason, well, what more would people want than for them not to immigrate, right? What more would we want for all people to have the good fortune of having a dignified life in their country, in their land, so that they do not have to emigrate, but it happens, it happens that if they emigrate, it happens for many reasons that sometimes it is not within our reach to be able to help them, but let's say at least to offer them the opportunities so that they emigrate in the best way possible and do not have so many disadvantages at the time of emigrating.Chris: Thank you. No, yes, my father's village, for example, was a peasant village in Greece and it is no longer abandoned, but when they left there were 800 people. And today there are about 50. And there are still about two, three peasants, so [00:16:00] I understand well what they are saying and how important it is to create the conditions so that people do not need to migrate if they do not need to.But I would also like to ask you about the success that has perhaps existed. So, if there was a statement that came out of the truth, it is not very well known, despite the success of the book and those things. It is not very well known, from what I have seen in Mexico and from speaking with some people from FIOB in the United States, but we will get to that in a moment. I wanted to ask you if there are programs or have you seen certain successes within or through those programs, for example, that you mentioned Aldo and Glorias, if there is a change in the towns. If something has changed in those 15 years.Glory: [00:17:00] Aha, from my side. I say yes. Yes, there has been a change. Maybe not a direct change. There has not been a declaration. Yes, it has helped, but we have not seen it because it is hardly mentioned. But there has been. Thanks to that, programs and projects have been created that have supported migrants, but which many times we are unaware of.But yes, there is, let's say, the positive impact that this statement has generated.Aldo: Well, in the case of the Sierra Juárez, the northern mountains of Oaxaca, let's say, there are some communities that have a high rate of migration and well, in some cases, some programs have arrived, for example, like "two for one," where the migrants, let's say, put up part of the resources, the state puts up another part or puts up two parts, let's say the federal government, the state government to do some work in the community.But that really isn't [00:18:00] solving any problem, not because basically what it's doing is forcing migrants to contribute to doing some better work in their community and when those resources could be used for their families or for something else or to fulfill their community obligations, but not necessarily carrying out the actions that the government is obliged to do, such as social works or things of that sort.So, I could say that the programs that have appeared in recent years have not helped us much to stop migration. For example, the most advertised program of the last six-year period was Sembrando Vida, right? And although that support was given to some farmers in some communities, not in all of them, we could [00:19:00] say that they were captured so that they would not migrate to the United States, but they stopped planting corn when initially the program was for them to plant more corn.They made us plant little trees, not trees that in many cases were not even from the region, that were not going to grow well or if they were going to grow well, they were not going to be useful here, because they came from other regions or if they grew, it was no longer going to be possible to grow corn in those places because they would shade the corn.We live on hillsides. There are no flat places here like in the United States, right? So, let's say that government programs that have benefited to some extent. The migratory flow that has made there less migration, well, they are not seen either. They are not seen very clearly. We see that policies continue to be established to destroy the community fabric , to expel the population . [00:20:00] from the countryside to the cities or to the United States. Chris: Thanks, Aldo. And you mentioned that your work has a lot to do with the regeneration of corn, and obviously local corn as well. Why is it so important for the people in the face of the consequences of migration?Aldo: Corn is a very important element for us. We could say that it is the heart of the community because we eat it every day. We say "native." Institutions in many places call it "criollo" out of habit, but the word is misused. We say that it is our native corn.And it is not the same to eat a tortilla made from native corn, an ear of corn from our corn, than to buy an ear of corn that they now sell in the city that was made with [00:21:00] hybrid corn or that we have to eat tortillas made with transgenic corn. Unfortunately, in recent years, I think it happens not only in the mountains, but in many other places in the country, the use of tortilla factories has increased and so we no longer know what corn they are producing those tortillas with, but they cannot be compared to the tortillas made from our corn with our own technologies. Right?So, I think that corn, for us, besides being our main food or the one we consume the most, also gives us identity. Corn, for example, calls us to work together, which is something that is not done in the United States. They all hire migrants to do their work, right? And they are going to produce what they are going to produce to sell here.The corn that is planted [00:22:00] is normally for consumption. Corn is hardly sold. And for example, now that they are setting guaranteed prices, right? Guaranteed price is MXN $6. In our communities, corn, you cannot sell it for MXN $6, or at least, you sell it for MXN $20, if you sell it, because it is the effort of your work and also by the same people in the community or even by migrants or immigrant families, it is valued as a, a food that is completely different from the corn that is bought in the store, at CONASUPO or at Diconsa or in any commercial store or what comes from tortillas? So there is a special appreciation for our corn. That is important, but it is being produced less and less. Now previously, whoever had corn was considered rich. [00:23:00] From a comparative perspective of today, anyone who has corn is considered stupid or poor because he has no money. However, especially the older peasants who say, well, "if I have corn, I don't need money" to live because I have enough food.Even before, for example, when people had to carry out their community duties, which were not paid in many communities, they started to pay for the position. The person who could occupy the position was an older agent, whose children had already grown up, but who also had corn so that he did not ask anyone for a favor about how he was going to pay for the food of his family for the year or the time that he had to be in charge of the community office.So, let's say that corn also creates community? And with these policies, lack of support or [00:24:00] elimination of support, the Mexican countryside is also hurting our forms of community organization. That's it.Chris: That's powerful. Yes, I remembered what you said, Aldo, some words that the philosopher Ivan Illich wrote, and I don't know if it's exactly what he wrote, but he basically said that for almost all of human history, the greatest measure of poverty was whether or not one had to buy one's food. That is, if you had to buy your food in the past, it was a sign, a measure of poverty, to say that you are poor if you have to buy. Gloria, do you have anything to add to that point?Gloria: Not that point, no,Chris: [00:25:00] Okay, okay. Well, I would also like to continue with what you mentioned, Aldo, about the resources and what are called remittances, and from what I have seen in the statistics, they do not say that more or less six percent of the Mexican economy is made up of remittances sent by family or friends in the United States.In some of the villages I have been invited to, I have been told that the village would not survive without remittances. In others, I have been told that the village would survive much better if people did not leave. This is a very complex issue and I wonder if the two of you could talk about that complexity that you have seen in your villages and elsewhere as a result of remittances.[00:26:00] goes beyond that topic to a vital or central question, which is whether a person can or cannot be responsible for one place while being in another place?Gloria: I say yes. Remittances have had a positive influence because thanks to them there have been many businesses, commerce and I feel that if we took away those remittances, those businesses would fall, because the money that many people spend in those businesses is money that their relatives send from the United States. Thanks to that, they buy their food, the materials they need from school supplies to personal things they need. And if in remittances, I feel that yes, it would be complicated because as until now, there are no

A thriving business is built on people, not just product. This week on Building Texas Business, I spoke with Lynne Doherty and Clarissa O'Connell of Sonar, a developer-first software company founded in Geneva and growing fast in Austin, Texas. Lynne leads their go-to-market team, and Clarissa heads up people and culture: together, they're shaping Sonar's growth story in the U.S. We discuss Sonar's journey from its open-source roots to serving over 28,000 organizations. Lynne shares how Austin's tech ecosystem and talent pool have been key to expanding their operations, including the rollout of their latest product, SonarQube Advanced Security, an integrated solution that combines code quality with security. Clarissa highlights the cultural strategies that keep Sonar's fast-scaling team engaged and committed, including an acronym-based value system (CODE) and a balanced hybrid work model. Over the conversation, we see how Sonar's approach to innovation and people has evolved. From whiteboarding solutions on-site to building confidence in AI-generated code, their focus is on helping developers build better, faster, while maintaining a human connection. What stood out to me most was how Clarissa and Lynne use leadership not just to grow a company, but to create a space where culture and innovation reinforce each other. It's a reminder that whether you're writing code or growing a team, trust and clarity go a long way. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore the transformative journey of Sonar, from its developer-focused beginnings in Geneva to its dynamic growth in Austin, Texas, a key hub in the U.S. tech scene. Lynne Doherty and Clarissa O'Connell share insights into how Austin's vibrant tech ecosystem and business-friendly environment have accelerated Sonar's expansion and shaped its innovative culture. We delve into SonarQube Advanced Security, a new integrated solution enhancing application security by addressing threats during development, demonstrating Sonar's commitment to code quality and security. The conversation highlights Sonar's strategic partnerships with Austin universities and robust internship programs aimed at nurturing the next generation of tech innovators. Lynne and Clarissa discuss the significance of creating a positive company culture, underscored by their CODE acronym, and how it fosters a collaborative and inclusive environment at Sonar. We address the challenges of rapid technological change and the importance of continuous team enablement and customer education to adapt and thrive in a fast-evolving industry. Through personal insights, Lynne and Clarissa emphasize the importance of work-life integration, adaptability, and maintaining well-being amidst the demands of leadership and a growing company. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sonar GUESTS Clarissa O'ConnellAbout Clarissa Lynne DohertyAbout Lynne TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) INTRO Welcome to the Building Texas Business Podcast. Interviews with thought leaders and organizational visionaries from across industry. Join us as we talk about the latest trends, challenges and growth opportunities to take your business to the next level. The Building Texas Business Podcast is brought to you by Boyer Miller, providing counsel beyond expectations. Find out how we can make a meaningful difference to your business at BoyerMillercom and by your podcast team, where having your own podcast is as easy as being a guest on ours. Discover more at yourpodcastteam Now. Here's your host, chris Hanslick. Chris: In this episode, you will meet Lynne Daugherty and Clarissa O'Connell of Sonar. Both Lynne and Clarissa share how being based in Austin, texas, has helped accelerate their company's growth and influenced its culture. I'm going to say hello to Lynne and Clarissa from Sonar. Thanks for joining me on Building Texas Business. Lynne: Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Chris: So I'm going to just have a fun free-flowing conversation, but I do want to start with each of you telling us about yourself, but also about Sonar. What does the company do? What is it known for? Clarissa: Great. Lynne: Yeah, I'll start. My name is Lynne Doherty and I lead our go-to-market team here at Sonar, which, if you think about that, is almost everything that directly touches a customer it's sales, it's support, it's engineering, it's our customer success organizations, our demand marketing organizations, and so I've been here at Sonar a little over a year now and it's been a great and wild ride. To give you a little background on who Sonar is, so we're a company founded in Geneva in 2008. And since the beginning, we have been an organization focused on developers, a developer-first company. We came to Austin in 2018. It was our first US office is in Austin and since then we've continued to build out the team in Austin, including our CEO Clarissa, our head of HR, our new general counsel, our new CFO all sit out of Austin. So Austin is is our second biggest office outside of Geneva, where we were founded. What we do is we focus on developers and it's around reaching the market of developers. We have 7 million developers that use our products. We have 28,000 organizations that use us today, and it's all around. How do we make developers more effective, more productive? We call it building better, faster, and that's what we're focused on is how do we do that Giving developers actionable intelligence so that they can build better faster. That that's what we're focused on is how do we do that giving developers actionable intelligence so that they can build better faster. Chris: That's right. So is it kind of an open source type concept then? Lynne: We start in open source. That was our roots is we have an open source product and then we have what we do at Sonar is sell the enterprise version of that product, the product that's the commercial version, when you need more features and grow and scale. We developed a product that people can use when they sort of graduate from open source. Chris: Great Well Lynne I appreciate that so. Clarissa, let's hear a little more about you, and then your background and a little bit in the role you play at Sonar. Clarissa: Yeah, absolutely so. My name is Clarissa O'Connell and I am the chief people officer here and, as you heard from Lynne, she manages the business and I'm in the lucky position that I get to manage the people that help drive all of those activities. So I'm really excited that we're in Austin, texas. As you know, it's a really thriving city, specifically for tech and for things like AI, so it's a perfect place for us to be located. We have almost 200 people here in this Austin office. We are growing this office every single day, with offers coming out on a regular basis, and I am in the really lucky position that I get to help drive the initiatives that help Lynne establish the protocols and sell the business for our customers. So I get to focus on things like making sure that we're one of the top employers in Austin, the rewarding packages for our employees, so that we can take the time to find really qualified individuals and then keep them here, and then all of the things that surround that, like culture, learning, development, career advancement and training. We also partner with all of the major research universities in the region to be able to develop things like internship programs and make sure that we're really socializing what it is that we do within the developer community and kind of embracing this really fast moving startup culture that Austin is really known for, and all of those things put together are making us who we are and the employees here are fantastic. Austin is amazing and some of our smartest talent is coming from the Texas region, so really happy to be here to talk to you about businesses in Texas. Chris: Yeah, Well, I'm not biased but I'm not surprised you're finding Texas and the workforce. I think it's important. It's one thing to have business friendly policies in place, which Texas certainly does, but you've got to match that with talent or the companies aren't going to come and some of it may be a chicken or egg kind of thing, right, because we do see, and I'm sure y'all are experiencing migration of people to Texas because that's where the companies are establishing themselves, like you have, and then trying to build from there. So you know, kind of to that lens, what are some of the emerging technologies or the trends that you see shaping kind of Texas business and, specifically in the Austin area, what are some of the trends that you're seeing emerging that are helping you with this growth? Lynne: Why don't I start? And, Clarissa, you can add in if you have anything. But I'd say the biggest trend that we're facing as a technology company and a software company for developers is, every day the news around AI is coming out and changing and evolving incredibly quickly, and you know, for us, we really believe that the core of software development whether that's designing program, validating the code that's developed, it's going to be enhanced by AI, and what that means is people, our customers, their roles as developers is going to evolve. We don't believe any of those roles disappear, but we believe they change, and so it's a big trend that's out there, that we see and our customers are faced with every day. It is something that we take into consideration as we evolve our business strategy, as we think about how we talk to our customers and how we help them solve the problems that they are facing today, and it's one of the benefits of being in Austin is that it enables us to attract talent to help solve these problems as we develop our products. Chris: Yeah, I think, just to step in. I think what's important in there is the idea that AI doesn't replace jobs. It may change and enhance, because isn't that what technology has always done right? As things have evolved, people have always adapted to. The computer hasn't replaced them, even though, with AI, I think there was that big fear, that myth that you need to debunk, right. Lynne: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I mean, think of all of the different innovations across time that are going to displace people and people aren't going to have jobs, and it ultimately means new jobs and growth, and it's just different kinds of jobs with different skills. Chris: Yeah, so of course, how has being in Austin helped position the company for the success that you're seeing? Clarissa: Yeah, and that's exactly why we're in Austin right. We're in this fortunate position where, as a global company, the Central Time Zone location is really perfect for us and we've got a really amazing strong pool of skilled workers that are coming to Austin, Texas, from all over the world because it is this emerging tech-friendly environment that people are embracing and Austin is a pretty attractive city to live in. You know, we've got really great weather, we've got really fantastic resources, we've got an infrastructure that supports all of these global individuals from across the world, and we're finding new ways to give back to the community, which is also helping us draw really solid candidates, whether that's through you know, sonar Serves is what we call it, but it's when we take our amazing environment of individuals and we give back to our local communities, and so that helps us really retain and attract really strong talent, and all of those things equal us now out of office space, and so we're actually today moving to more space in the building that we're in so that we can continue to be an emerging talent where we can focus on hiring, bringing in those key people, expanding into those new technologies and bringing in those skill sets and diversifying the Austin region and the company itself. Chris: Well, that's really good to hear because in this environment you hear more about companies shrinking office space, not growing. So I'm sure the office market there in Austin appreciates that. So just while we're on that topic, how are you managing with like kind of work remote policies while you expand and take on more office space? Do you see your people coming in more over the last, say, year or so than before? Clarissa: Yeah, we're really lucky that our work environment here is extremely collaborative and, because of the work that we do, oftentimes we do our best work all sitting in one room and whiteboarding things out and solving the problems as they come up. That's really. Our workforce has embraced that opportunity to be able to interact with each other face-to-face. You know, as an HR person, I think it's a combination of people love working remote, but they also kind of miss that interaction, and so currently our workforce comes in every Monday, tuesday and Thursday and then on Wednesdays and Fridays. We make those days optionals for our employee. They can come in if they want to interact. They also choose not to come in. They have the ability to work from home. But, believe it or not, we have about 60% of our workforce that still comes in on Wednesdays and Fridays because that interaction has now become a thing. We're in this fortunate position, being a global company, that we work really hard, but we also have this European culture where it's common for us to embrace that work-life balance, and so it's common for us to do coffee chat meetings. We have the luxurious European coffee machine in the kitchen, so it's dragging people into the office where they're able to talk about those emerging technologies, how to continually improve and increase the company and really embrace our culture. So the one thing I think I'm really proud of is that people work really hard, they're incredibly talented, so they're driving the product to the next level and they're embracing this interaction of culture, and so all of those things together are making it a pretty incredible place to work. Chris: That's great. So, Lynne, let's talk a little bit about innovation. What are some of the things that you feel like Sonar's done in the last several years to really you know? I know your technology company so you probably said, look, that's in our DNA. But what are you doing to really be, or do you think is innovative, for maybe your industry that has, you know, kind of helped position the company to where it is today? Lynne: Yeah, you're absolutely right, chris. I mean, I think it is in our DNA, it's part of what we do, and developers are always at the forefront of technology, and so our customers challenge us to be better every day, because they want to be better. They need to be better and because we're in this changing landscape. So a few things we've innovated on, and we're fortunate because our solution is a fit for really all industries, all types of organizations, all sizes, and so we're focused on a few things that we've done recently, which is really interesting. We have just put out something called SonarQube Advanced Security, and so, if you think about what that is, it's helping developers make their applications more secure, and security is a threat. Everybody in all walks of life, all organizations, faces this threat of cybersecurity issues that can get embedded in code, and so we support developers in not just helping them build faster, better quality applications, but now we've just put out something that enables them to do both code quality and security. It's the first integrated solution to do that, so there are a lot of people that do either one or the other. We're the first bringing that together into one integrated solution for a developer to use, that together into one integrated solution for a developer to use. So security is something that is a big innovation for us that we've just come out with. I'd also add the AI features that we have. How do you get assurance on your AI code? So a developer's creating AI code, it's automated, but you still want to make sure that code has good quality, good security, good maintainability, and so with our product that's a new innovation that we have is to how to make sure that all of that AI generated code you have the same kind of confidence in that you do human written code. Chris: Good stuff. I mean security. You're right. It becomes increasingly more of an issue because more and more things in the cloud all of our information and of course we know there's a whole world of professional hackers out there just trying to get in. So I think it has a lot of people concerned and trusting, whether that trust is well-placed or not. But I think to your point of focus on security, you can't emphasize that enough. Lynne: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's a huge issue and huge concern and we really believe if you start with the developers as the application gets developed and build security in, you get a better outcome than you build an application and try to layer all of the protection on top of it. So it's really about building security and at the development stage from the ground up, and we believe that's a really important trend that we should be a part of. Chris: So, Clarissa, what are some of the kind of investments, if you will, that Sonar is making in Austin to kind of help support your growth strategy? And how do you see, how has that been playing out for you? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question. So Austin, as a thriving tech city, has this really entrepreneurial spirit where we've got these incredible talents from all over the globe that have come here. They really want to stay close to innovation and attract kind of that top talent for us, and our product allows us to do that, not only because of its name recognition but because of the impact that it has for developers worldwide, I think being able to grow our businesses in Austin is key for us. We've already mentioned that we're out of office space and so we're having to grow into that region, but we've expanded our footprint within the market way more than just increasing our office space. We've got internship programs where we're partnering with some of our incredible universities to bring in those individuals who want to get into the footprint of technology and because oftentimes they're already aware of our product, it's a really good opportunity for them to partner with some of the best minds in the business that are working on our product, both driving the product and driving the technology, and so we have really robust internship programs where we give them exposure into what we do and then those eventually lead to full-time jobs and we have the opportunity to put those interns into multiple markets because we are spread across the globe and so we're really proud of exposing those individuals and it helps us to hire those right people. From the very beginning, we are working really hard to be a standout or a world-class choice for employees and so because of that, we leverage a lot of our hires based on referrals, whether those are from customers or from internal employees, and we really focus on providing that experience for individuals that they're proud to work here, and doing that in a way that gives them a work-life balance but also a rewarding package so that their impact that they have in driving our product forward is rewarded for them on the back end through multiple things, whether it's activities giving back to our community, really amazing benefits packages to be able to support them when they're not at work, to learning and development opportunities so they can continue to grow in their career, so that we're bringing them in as a world-class employee, and then we're giving them the tools and resources to even be better than what they ever could have been, and all of those things coupled together are helping us get that top talent in that Texas market to be able to work for our company. Chris: So of course, you've talked a lot about it, but I want to dig a little deeper about culture. Clarissa: One of my favorite topics. Chris: So how would you describe the culture at Sonar? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question and one of the favorite things. We could talk about this for the entire time. But we use an acronym to divide, to talk about our culture, and it's actually CODE and it stands for committed, obsessed, deliberate, and then, based on what team you're on, it could mean efficient or it could mean effective. The committed is being committed to what it is that we do as a company for our customers and our clients, but it's also that we're really committed to each other. Everyone at Sonar has a voice and all those voices are heard and we're really good at a collaborative work environment where we talk about things in joint sessions and we have nuances to that that I'm really happy for. We do this thing called called chickening, and what it basically means is anybody in the company at any time can sit it on generally any meeting so that they really understand that collaboration between teams and departments. So if you're on the product team, you can sit in on marketing so that you understand what that's about. If you are on a, an IT team, you can sit in with products, you can understand the roadmap, and so it's really helping our employees understand what we do as a company so that everybody is moving in the same direction. Our obsessed really is closely tied to committed obsessed about what we do, obsessed about who we are and obsessed about the impact that we make, both internally and externally to our clients. Chris: I love that word, by the way. Clarissa: Me too. Chris: I mean it's impactful right. Clarissa: It's really great. We have pictures throughout the office that are code and it's this big, bright acronym that's posted everywhere, so it's really in front of everybody and we talk about it all the time. For deliberate we really do make deliberate choices. We listen to our customers, we listen to our employees and we navigate throughout our company decisions based on a lot of that feedback. We've got incredible moderators that are out there listening to the voice of what our customers are, and they're sharing that information on a regular basis. We're constantly iterating on how we do things so that we can do it better every time that we tackle the project again. And then the, of course, efficient, effective, right Based on the team that you're on. We try and do things in the best interest of the company and we also really embrace this culture that it's okay to ask questions and it's okay to make mistakes, as long as we recognize what those are and we get back up and we try again, and all of those things combined really drive a culture here that is extremely positive. As a global workforce, it helps establish the criteria and expectations that we have across the company, but it also drives those relationships so that everybody understands where we're going and what we're trying to do, and everybody is all in and doing it together. We do regular all hands where we talk about everything transparently, including. What most companies don't do is we take live Q&A at the end and we answer them in real time. So transparency is really important for us. We want our employees to understand that they're here and that their voice matters and to reward that. Every year we also have this really amazing incentive that we have called the Company Growth Incentive, and so we establish milestones in the beginning of the year and every employee at Sonar is rewarded for their actions and activities by a growth incentive or an award bonus at the end of the year, and it's the same amount regardless of what role that you're in, because everybody here matters for what we're doing every day and everybody gets to kind of celebrate in the rewards of those achievements through the company. So we do our best to make sure that our people know that we wouldn't be here without the people that are driving the business and we hope that reflects when we talk to our customers and it clearly is reflected in the business. I mean we hired 231 people last year and that's amazing considering all the trends across the globe, where the companies were downsizing and collapsing, and Sonar was really great at making sure that we did exactly opposite. And it's only May 28th. We've already sent out 158 offers just this year, so we're on track to double that number, which just shows that we're doing something right here and that we're really happy with what we're doing. Chris: It's amazing, it really is. Kudos to you and yeah, I love it. I mean culture. You can have stuff on the wall and you can have your sayings, but unless it's really ingrained into the organization, it doesn't matter how colorful the signs are or whatnot, but I do like the connection to code and what you do. So let me ask you Lynne Clarissa shared that one of those values about deliberate is listening to customers, and that's where you sit right. ADVERT Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: You're on the front edge of that. What are you and your team doing? I guess in two ways one, to listen to the customers, but also to stand out and be able to communicate. You know the why sonar over your competition. Lynne: Yeah, it's a really good question because software development is changing, with AI as a tool, as a practice, as it's pervasive in everything, and we really fundamentally believe that this is a partnership between AI and humans. This is not an either or this is not a one wins and the other loses. It's how do we have that partnership? And I think our customers are in a sort of trial and error phase right now that we are trying to listen to and be there as a partner for them, and how do we help facilitate this for them instead of, you know, be silent in this? How do we facilitate them using AI and using AI effectively, and that's really important for us. So we do spend a lot of time listening to customers. I would say, you know, there's a lot of noise, and I think that's something that we try to be a voice to our customers on is what's the signal, what's the noise, so to speak, on AI, because it's hard to open anything in tech today and not see a dozen or more articles about AI and what's new, and it is rapidly changing, and so I think for us to be a voice, to have a perspective on that and to help them with a solution, a here and now solution that they can use today, as opposed to things that are maybe today. You know ideas and concepts, but they're more vaporware. We're giving real solutions in the world today to help them solve and do AI, but do it better. Chris: Good. So you know, Lynne, what you know there's always good times and bad times in business. What are some of the headwinds that you kind of see that you're dealing with as you're trying to? You know, deal with customers, grow the business, whether that's unique to Texas or just general in your industry. Lynne: Yeah, I think that one of the things that is a challenge today is this need to do constant enablement of our team and education and conversations with customers about changes that we're seeing. I remember and I've been doing technology with customers for a long time and there were times where you'd sort of have a product or a trend or some innovation and it would be months and years that you talk about the same thing, and now I feel like it's weeks or days, or sometimes even minutes, that things change, and so I think that's a real challenge for our customers to stay up on, to stay educated on, but also for our teams that need to be experts on this, and so it's a real challenge, as Clarissa talked about, how many people we've hired is how do we bring them in and educate them on what we do today? But also, what we do today changes tomorrow and changes the next day and changes the next day, and so I think that's a challenge for all of us in technology today is that the sort of lifespan of technology has gotten so much shorter, and so our focus on educating our own employees but doing that in partnership with customers is a constant uphill battle. Chris: Makes sense. Clarissa, what about you from the kind of the HR perspective? What are some of the headwinds and challenges that you're facing as you're trying to help? You know you're really trying to feed the machine with people and talent so that they can continue to drive the business, but what are some of the challenges with finding those people and integrating those people? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question and a real problem sometimes, right, because we're not the only company in Texas that realizes how great it is to be in Texas, and because of that, oftentimes we're up against really large organizations that have now made Texas their home and they have compelling stories. And we have compelling stories, and some of those are larger, really well-known companies, and so it's a constant battle to find really great talent. I feel like we have a really good position in the market to be able to find those individuals and we have a great reputation, which is very helpful. But when you're talking to a candidate who has other really amazing Texas companies that they're also speaking to, it is kind of a little bit like a talent war, and because we're growing so quickly, we are trying to constantly hire these individuals, and so the pipeline really never ends for us, meaning we close one requisition and right behind it we're opening it up, so we think we found the best person, and then all of a sudden we're restarting the cycle and every employee that we're hiring here is fantastic, right? We say that we're constantly raising the bar, and so the expectations are changing, which that we're hiring here is fantastic, right, we say that we're constantly raising the bar, and so the expectations are changing, which means we're constantly evaluating that we are a world-class employer with the best offerings, and so the cycle never ends. But we've been really fortunate to be able to have people want to work with us because they understand what we're doing, and you know we celebrate every time somebody says yes, regardless of their role, because every person that's here is important to us and helping to drive what it is that we're doing. Chris: So I'm going to give you a tough question because one of the things I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners hiring is such an important decision and such a challenging thing to do. No one's perfect right. We don't always get it right. So I'm going to ask you, when you realize that it's not working out, maybe just advice, one or two things that you would recommend to people when you're facing that decision of you realize this hire is not working out, it's time to move on. Any tips that you've learned over the years you know doing HR that you know, even though it's hard, it's hard to do when you're affecting people's life any tips on? Clarissa: Yeah, that's the worst part of my career, to be honest with you is you know you want everybody to be successful, just like you want your company to be successful. I really my piece of advice would be to really try and do everything you can on the front end to make sure that the person that you're bringing in understands not only the expectations but what the environment is going to be. And, like Lynne said, enablement is really important, and that goes for customers, but it also goes for your employees, and so, kind of trying to be ahead of that conversation before it ever starts it's not always possible but give them the resources that they need. At Sonar, we assign individuals both a point of contact and a mentor and we also put them through an extremely robust training program. We try and check all of those boxes when they're hired to make sure that it doesn't get to that point. But if in fact, the job isn't right for somebody and jobs aren't always right for people and it's a really hard decision we do try and give individuals that attention that they need to be able to help them be on track, whether that's additional one-on-one training or pulling them aside to re-establish kind of the connection between what they're doing and what we need them to do, but sometimes it doesn't, unfortunately, work out for people. The one thing that Sonar does really well is we do everything in our power to treat people with the outmost kindness. We have really built-in contractual exit periods because we firmly believe that individuals in Texas need that off-ramp period in order to secure their next dream job, even if, unfortunately, it's not with Sonar, and we do everything we can to set them up for success. When people need to depart the company, we give them reference letters so that they have the opportunity to leverage that and we make ourselves widely available to help them secure their next job. And then we do exit interviews so that we can collect that feedback so we can hopefully stop that cycle. Our attrition rates here are really low, so we are very fortunate. But in the unlikely event that they need to leave, we leave on really good terms. I mean, we hire people because they're brilliant but we keep them because they become part of who we are in the fabric of Sonar and every exit that we have is painful for us. But we really do everything we can to make sure that person's set up for success, and sometimes that's leveraging our extensive networks and sometimes it's putting people into partnerships with other companies where they may be a better fit, because it is a small technology state, right Like a lot of us communicate on a regular basis through agencies and entities, and so the referral network is really strong and we do everything we can to make sure that those people are set up for success, even if it's not with Sonar. Chris: Well, thank you, thanks for sharing Great advice. It looks like it's very well thought out on the front and back end, which I think is what's most important right being thoughtful and, to your core value, deliberate about it. So, Lynne, I want to ask you a little bit about leadership. I'd like for you to share kind of how you see your leadership style and how do you think that's kind of evolved or adapted as this role in Sonar has grown and your team has grown. Lynne: I think my leadership style has changed a lot over the years. I mean, I think earlier in my career it was more about how do I get the next step, how do I do something. And I think, as I've gotten bigger roles, I realized it's not about me. It's about what I can do for other people, and so I very much think my leadership style is how do I make people better, how do I leave the company, the organization, the individuals in a better place? Because I was a part of it and play a role in people's careers. That goes long beyond any given quarter or year in a go-to-market leadership position. I always think about the fact that nobody remembers in 2018, I did the best quarter ever but people remember the person who gave them a chance, the person who supported them when they didn't have confidence, and I think through my career, I've seen that even more and gotten more realization. That's really what leadership is about. It's it, you know, fundamentally I need to deliver the business for this company, so we're successful and everybody can have jobs. But you know, for me as a leader, it's more about the individuals that I get to impact through the job. Chris: Very nice, clarissa, how about you? And you've been in this role for some time, but how do you see your leadership style, how do you think it's evolved and changed and you know, kind of share that journey with us. Clarissa: Yeah, absolutely. I mean HR in general has completely changed since I've been doing this in my career. You know it started where we would almost be considered policemen and enforcing the rules and it's really morphed into more of a consultant type of environment, right? So I've found that establishing familiarity with the employees and a really strong partnership with our managers and leaders within the company. I mean, our executive team really thinks exactly like Lynne said, right, we are here to make sure that the individuals who work for us and under us are better than us and I firmly believe that making sure that the people who are driving the business feel heard and that we offer them the transparency that they need and we openly talk about how to be successful here, because, I mean, to be honest, I'm not going to be in this role forever. You know, eventually I want to go. You know, live in the Texas Hill country and my best life. I need to make sure that the individuals who report to me and work under me are able to step in to not only the expectations for how to be a good HR representative for a company, but also to understand what that means and what attributes you need. I think that for me, I have a strong moral compass and leveraging that moral compass through transparency and collaboration and guidance, I try and impart that into every employee. I really think it's important and I've learned through my leadership growth period is to really taking the time to listen and hear what the employees are saying and responding back to them in a way that I would expect, when I was at their career stage, to be responded to, and that's one thing that Sonar's really good at is making sure that everybody understands that their voice is important and taking the time to be able to not only answer things like live questions on an all hands, but to openly and transparently talk about the good and the bad, the growth and the learning, and the successes and the failures. Chris: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about how you integrate and, Lynne, I'll start with you how do you integrate this professional life that is demanding, with your personal interests and making sure there's some time for you and family and friends and whatnot? I use the word integration, not balance, because I don't think there's. I think it's a better use of what you do from my perspective, what you do to make it work. Lynne: I totally agree with integration. I totally agree with integration. I think I have never found balance, but I have found integration and so I think a lot of it is having for me. So I'll first start by saying I'm not maybe the best at any concept of balance, but I do think it's important to have priorities, like for me, exercise is a priority. I think I can't be good at what I do here every day if I'm not fit and healthy and strong and here for the marathon, not just the sprint, and so I try to think of that integration as it's a marathon, not a sprint, and so I have some things that are sort of non-negotiable priorities and that doesn't mean every day, every week, every quarter is equal, but I think it is really important to have the things that are very important to you. The other thing that maybe it's less advice about the integration or balance. It's more about recognizing that working is about having different chapters of the book, and there's probably chapters where I'm way more balanced, so to speak, in work and way more balanced in life and viewing things as it's not forever, it's one chapter, and that I think when you're feeling guilty about the things that you miss or the things that you didn't get to, having this view that I'm just in this chapter and that chapter isn't the whole book. So maybe that's my advice, for how do I not feel guilty when I'm not doing something or doing something as well as I think I ought to be? Chris: Great perspective. Thank you, clarissa. Clarissa: Lynne is also leaving off that. She takes fitness to a new level when she comes to Austin. She rallies the troops here and they all go to a cycling class to not only get out their spent up energy but to also like reward and push through and hit other milestones. So she successfully convinced me to go, but that's something she does every time she's in Austin with the team. I also agree I do not have balance myself. I have more than I did earlier in my career where I was trying to figure out what it means to be a leader for an organization. My role is a little bit different than everyone else's because people have needs and you never know when those needs are going to occur. I deal with the employee and not necessarily the product, and so you know. Sometimes there may be an emergency that occurs on a weekend, or somebody may need a clarification on something, or people just might need help, and I need to be there when those individuals need to be there. I've established a really good cadence and balance for offsetting. You know, if I need to be there for an employee on a Saturday at 11 pm, to being able to balance that with something during the week I'm a big fan of even though our employees work really hard grabbing people and dragging them out for coffee just to not only reset my own self but to be able to help them reset, and pulling people into different environments and cultures, and acknowledging to people that I know that I don't have really solid balance and that don't do what I do, what you need to do, and giving them the tools to be able to do that. It does help. Lynne and I both are lucky to be able to travel to multiple offices, so we have forced downtime sometimes when we're on airplanes and so we do have those reset periods, but we're able to hit the ground running when we start again and each market's different, so we try and do the best that we can. I try and do the best that I can. Sometimes I'm great at it and sometimes I'm not great at it. Chris: Well, I think that's all you can do and I think the biggest thing is knowing that you're not always going to get it right. Yeah, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and maybe you know, so does the rest of the world and just knowing that it's going to be okay, your intentions matter a lot, and so you know that. So, look, I really appreciate the two of you sharing not just a sonar story but a little bit of your own. You are on a Texas podcast, so I do like to end this way. I'm gonna start with Clarissa. I give Lynne a little bit of time. I know Lynne just travels to and from Texas. But, Clarissa, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Clarissa: Definitely barbecue. Chris: Okay, no hesitation I love it. Lynne: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent barbecue. Chris: Love it. Y'all agree on that. Clarissa: I'm going to book us a lunch, Lynne. Chris: Favorite barbecue place in Austin. Lynne: Franklin's. Chris: There you go, there you go. She reads the press clippings, all right. Well, ladies, look. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast. Congratulations for all the success you're having with Sonar Love, that the company chose Austin and Texas to put their stake in the ground and just pleased to see it going so well. Clarissa: Yeah, us too. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much. Chris: Okay, McKenzie, cut it there. Great job, ladies. Come on, Katie Great conversation. Lynnee: Love to listen in you made it nice and easy, chris. Thank you, yeah, no, you're welcome. Clarissa: If you decide to leave Houston and head up to Austin, please call us Lynne, and I'll take you to barbecue. Chris: Deal and spinning class. Lynne: And spinning class. What are you? Chris: like what's that? Lynne: Tex-Mex or barbecue. Chris: Oh see, it's hard because I'm born and raised here. So I usually say I mean if it's like when I'm gone, the way I have to gauge, that is, if I'm out of town in a different state for a period of time. When I come back, what's the first thing I really want? And the truth is it'd be Tex-Mex. Yeah, blending it right, so you have brisket tacos and things. So there's right down the street from our office we have a barbecue place called the pit room and they own a tex-mex next door and they use the barbecue so you can get like brisket nachos and brisket tacos yeah, it is delicious well maybe we'll come visit you, because that sounds lovely. If you're ever in houston holler at me. But yes, I was like with Lynne. I'm a I'm kind of a fitness freak, so spinning and pilates and okay, okay, but I'm like you, I have to and I have to do in the morning where it doesn't happen. But if I'm not taking care of myself, I don't have. It takes a lot of energy to do what we do. Clarissa: Yeah, I feel like you're not I'm the local pilates girl, so she can take you to spin and I'll do pilates with you, and then we'll all go former I do, reformer I do reformer. Yep, yep, it's a lot harder than it looks, but it's 55 minutes in and out and then you're done harder than yeah, you're right, those machines make it look easy. Chris: It is nothing. It is not anything close to easy not at all, but yeah, so we're good, but seriously love to stay in touch. So yeah, if I'm in Austin I'll give you a ring, and please do if you're headed this way. Clarissa: Yeah, we'd love that. We're right downtown so we'd love to host you. So you let us know when you're in this area and we'll let you know when we're in yours. Chris: Thank, you All right, sounds good. OUTRO And there we have it. Don't forget to check out the show notes at boyermillercom forward slash podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyermiller.com. That's it for this episode. Have a great week and we'll talk to you next time. Special Guests: Clarissa O'Connell and Lynne Doherty.

Mi entrevistado en este episodio es Ernest Cañada. Es coordinador de Alba Sud y docente de la Universidad de Barcelona. Investiga en torno al trabajo, los conflictos socioecológicos y las alternativas en el desarrollo turístico. Ha publicado: Viajar a todo tren. Turismo, desarrollo y sostenibilidad (Icaria, 2005, con Jordi Gascón); Turismo en Centroamérica: un nuevo escenario de conflictividad social (Enlace Editorial, 2010); Turismo placebo. Nueva colonización turística: del Mediterráneo a Mesoamérica y El Caribe. Lógicas espaciales del capital turístico (Enlace Editorial, 2011, con Macià Blàzquez); El turismo en el inicio del milenio: una lectura crítica a tres voces (FTR, 2012, con Jordi Gascón y Joan Buades); Turismos en Centroamérica. Un diagnóstico para el debate (Enlace Editorial, 2013); Turismo comunitario en Centroamérica. Experiencias y aprendizajes (Enlace Editorial, 2014).Notas del Episodio* Alba Sud y su historia* El despojo en Nicaragua* El surgimiento de turismo en Costa Rica como una herramienta neoliberal*  El Malestar en la Turistificación: Pensamiento Crítico Para Una Transformación de Turismo* El fin de turismo barato y el policrisis de hoy* Postcapitalismo y terminos complementarios* Monstruos peores* Aprender poner limites* La pluralidad de posibilidades de turismos postcapitalistasTarea* El malestar en la turistificación. Pensamiento crítico para una transformación del turismo - Icaria Editorial* Alba Sud - Facebook - Instagram - Twitter* #TourismPostCOVID19. Turistificación confinada* Ernest Cañada - Facebook - Instagram - TwitterTranscripcion en espanol (English Below)Chris: [00:00:00] Bienvenido Ernest, al podcast del fin de turismo. Ernest: Muchas gracias. Muy encantado estar aquí. Chris: igual es un gran honor poder hablar finalmente contigo. Mi pregunto si, pues, para empezar, si podrías decirnos de este, dónde hablas hoy y cómo es el mundo allá por ti? Ernest: Yo habitualmente resido en Barcelona, entre Barcelona y Mallorca, porque estoy entre la universidad de las Islas Baleares y Alba Sud, y en estos momentos estoy en Buenos Aires que estoy trabajando en una investigación sobre experiencias de gestión distinta, fuera de las lógicas del capitalismo. Y esto nos llevo a identificar distintas experiencias. Y ahora estoy empezando una investigación con el Hotel Bauen, a lo que fue el Hotel Bauen y a cerrado y la cooperativa que lo gestionó durante 20 años, Es parte el proceso que estamos haciendo, identificación [00:01:00] de experiencias diversas plurales que tienen que ver con como pensar la posibilidad de organizar el turismo bajo otros modos y esto nos elevado por caminos distintos de América Latina, de España. Y ahora estoy aquí.Chris: Pues gracias Ernest. Y si vamos a estar hablando de ese tema pero más allá de las vision que que hay, que existe, que podemos imaginar sobre un turismo post-capitalista o algo alrededor, algo así. Pero antes de meternos en eso, pues tú y yo hemos estado en contacto durante los últimos dos años, en parte debido a tu trabajo en el ámbito de los estudios críticos de turismo y a tu proyecto Alba Sud que en algunos de nuestros invitados anteriores incluidos de Ivan Murray, Robert Fletcher y Macia Blasquez ha participado.Me encantaría que pudieras contarme un poco [00:02:00] sobre Alba Sud, Ernest, su misión, su historia y su situación actual Ernest: Con mucho gusto. Ah, mira, Alba Sud nace en 2008. Legalmente lo habíamos legalizado antes por si algún grupo de compañeros por si algún día nos hacía falta, pero formalmente empieza a funcionar el año 2008 y empieza a funcionar en Managua, Nicaragua, que era donde yo residía en ese momento.Y fundamentalmente fue un acuerdo de personas que nos dedicábamos a la investigación y a la comunicación para trabajar con análisis críticos y al mismo tiempo propositivos en torno al turismo. Esto fue algo que fue original desde el principio, esta doble preocupación, por cómo pensar los impactos, los efectos que tenía el desarrollo turístico bajo el capitalismo y que tipo de dinámicas de violencia estructural y directa generaban y al mismo tiempo, cómo pensar posibilidades de salir de ese [00:03:00] marco de esas lógicas. Y eso fue un sello que desde el principio empezamos. Con los años Alba Sud fue creciendo, integrándose como una red de investigadoras e investigadores en turismo. Ahora tenemos presencia en 10 países en España, en Francia, en Europa, y luego en América latina, en la República Dominicana, en México, en El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Brasil, Uruguay y Argentina.Entonces es una red que conformamos gentes que nos dedicamos a distintos ámbitos de la análisis turístico y que compartimos espacios de trabajo y análisis e intervención política. Para nosotros, Alba Sud es un centro de investigación, pero no es un centro académico si nos preocupa menos las dinámicas académicas, aunque hay una parte de nuestro equipo de personas que colaboran que están en la universidad, distintas universidades. Lo que nos preocupa es cómo generar [00:04:00] conocimiento que sea útil para las comunidades, para las organizaciones comunitarias, para las asociaciones civiles, para sindicatos, para cuando es posible la administración pública. Es decir, intentamos generar conocimiento, análisis sistematización, propuestas que de alguna manera contribuyen a hacer visible las cosas que funcionan mal, que son un desastre que generan dolor en este mundo en relación con el turismo y al mismo tiempo, a pensar horizontes de esperanza.Este es un poco el propósito. Para ello, nos dotamos de eso de un equipo amplio de personas que colaboran unas más estrechamente con el día a día, otras que puntualmente colaboran y montamos básicamente nuestros trabajos se articula en torno a una web, la www.AlbaSud.Org, y lo estructuramos en trabajos de investigación que salen después en un formato [00:05:00] escrito por distintas formas, que luego te cuento un trabajo, además de la forma de la investigación, vinculado a la formación a poner a generar procesos de diálogo que nos permitan escuchar, reflexionar conjuntamente, poniendo en el mismo nivel personas que vienen de la academia con personas que tienen experiencias concretas de trabajo. Y finalmente, un ámbito más de incidencia política, más de acompañamiento organizaciones y de acompañarles para incidir políticamente. En el ámbito de la investigación, luego lo expresamos, básicamente a través de unos artículos cortos que hacemos, publicamos alrededor de 100, 110, 120 al año, que son artículos cortos de 2000-2500 palabras, que sabemos que son muy usados en las universidades, como material de discusión. Y un poco del propósito es este que se hiervan como pequeñas artículos bien escritos o intentamos que estén bien [00:06:00] escritos, que estén en un lenguaje simple, que la complejidad no tiene que ver con las palabrotas académicas que usamos, sino la profundidad del pensamiento que incorporan, pero que tienen que estar poder ser leídas por mucha gente.Tenemos esto. Luego, pusimos en marcha un sello editorial propio que es Alba Sud Editorial, en el cual tenemos una colección de libros, una de informes y recientemente una de policy brief más dirigidos a recomendaciones de política. Y básicamente Alba Sud eso. Es un espacio de encuentro entre personas que no nos resignamos a pensar que el desarrollo turístico necesariamente tenga que comportar esto, que estamos acompañando las resistencias, las luchas de los muchos males y violencias que genera este desarrollo capitalista a través del turismo y que al mismo tiempo, intentamos construir lo que decía antes "horizontes de esperanza" que nos permitan estimular la lucha y la resistencia, [00:07:00] pensando en en futuros más deseables que es creo que en estos momentos también necesitamos.Chris: Gracias, Ernest. Sí. Pues por lo que he visto, lo que he leído, lo que he encontrado ahi en el sitio de Alba Sud. Pues es, es una organización y sitio único en el mundo. Y pues yo tengo mucho honor de estar contigo hoy hablando de estas cosas y especialmente contigo como el fundador, Y entonces, para agregar, para profundizar un poco más de la historia, de tu historia, la próxima pregunta viene de nuestro amigo mutuo compañero Macía Blasquez a quien entrevisté en la temporada cuatro. Europa. Y el pregunta, "afirma que tú has sido entre muchas otras cosas activista en Centroamérica, como nos dijiste, y entonces él quiere saber cómo han cambiado tus opiniones y tu carrera de este [00:08:00] entonces?" Ernest: Buena pregunta.Ah, yo empecé a trabajar en Centroamérica acompañando. Bueno, primero pasé seis años que iba y venía. Estaba medio año en Centroamérica más o menos a otro medio en España. Y finalmente me quedé a trabajar en Nicaragua con una organización que se le llamaba "Luciérnaga" ahora "Ilegalizada," dedicada a la comunicación.Y desde ahí empezamos a organizar campañas de comunicación en distintos temas que tenían que ver con las necesidades y los derechos de la mayoría de la gente y de como estaban sufriendo procesos de despojo de posesión. Y trabajamos en torno a temas que tenían que ver con la salud y los derechos sexuales o reproductivos o la soberanía alimentaria. Y en una de estas, organizamos una campaña que duró cuatro años de investigación y comunicación sobre turismo. En un contexto, estoy hablando del año [00:09:00] 2004-2008, en el cual Nicaragua se estaba abriendo al turismo en esos momentos. Y entonces identificábamos claramente los altos niveles de violencia que eso podía comportar con procesos de desplazamiento.Y había que acompañar a las comunidades en esas dinámicas, y que además eran compartidas en El Salvador, en Guatemala, en Honduras, en Costa Rica y al mismo tiempo, empezar a pensar posibilidades de "si era posible utilizar el turismo bajo el control de las propias comunidades." Esa fue mi mi inserción en el mundo fundamentalmente del turismo.Y a partir de ahí, después de trabajar unos cuatro años en Luciérnaga y pusimos en marcha Alba Sud y en parte recuperamos en Alba Sud esa especialización vinculado con el turismo. Pensábamos, y es algo que hemos reflectado muchas veces con Ivan Murray que también le entrevistaste que no nos estábamos dando cuenta desde el mundo de las [00:10:00] izquierdas de la importancia que tenía el turismo para el funcionamiento al capitalismo.Y a veces cuando decíamos que nos necesitábamos al turismo, la gente lo tomaba como algo como irrelevante, como algo superficial, incluso casi jocoso como te gusta viajar, verdad? Y entonces era como, como no darse cuenta de, por un lado, como sobre todo desde la aplicación de los programas neoliberales, cómo el el turismo estaba ayudando a expandir los procesos de desarrollo capitalista, pero al mismo tiempo, como tenía una segunda función muy importante que era, cómo ayudaba a a estabilizar los desórdenes que provocaba ese mismo programa neoliberal? Recuerdo que me impresionó mucho trabajando en Costa Rica cuando me di cuenta que el año 1985, cuando se aplican los programas de ajuste estructural, [00:11:00] una de las cosas que se hace es desmontar el CNP, que era el consejo nacional de producción, que era lo que permitía durante bastantes años, que el campesinado costarricense tuviera la seguridad de que los granos básicos, frijoles, arroz, maíz tenía donde venderlos con precios estables. Y esto le daba seguridad al campesinado. Esto el año en el marco de la aplicación de esas políticas neoliberales que eran de hecho un chantaje, decir bueno, en un contexto de crisis de la deuda o aplicas determinadas programas políticos para liberalizar el comercio o no tienes apoyo en ese contexto, la contrapartida de achicar el estado y reducirlo.Y uno de los ejes de disminución del gasto público fue, por ejemplo, desmontar el CNP, este consejo nacional de producción. Y a cambio, lo que se pedía al campesinado estimularlo en la producción [00:12:00] de cultivos que tuvieran supuestamente mejor inserción en el mercado internacional para atraer la llegada de divisas.Y ahí se promovía la vainilla, la curcuma, la pimienta, productos que al final no acabaron de funcionar. Pero al mismo tiempo se promovió el turismo rural como un mecanismo para que el campesinado, por una parte, aportara con esa desarrollo de servicios turísticos divisas, al mismo tiempo le permitiera estabilizarse y no comprometerse en una dinámica que tenía que ver con el sufrimiento que estaban viviendo, que estaban generando procesos migratorios muy grandes.Entonces, con Iván, una de las cosas que reflexionábamos es, esto del turismo empieza a ser muy importante para el capitalismo. Y después de la crisis de 2008 creo que tuvimos bastante conciencia de que la dinámica de solución que encuentre el capitalismo para su [00:13:00] reproducción en parte tiene que ver con la expansión del turismo.Y esto lo hemos visto después de la crisis de la COVID con la pandemia que tuvimos en la cual... recuerdo perfectamente una llamada que nos hicimos con Iván, decíamos no nos puede pasar en 2020 lo mismo que nos pasó en 2008, que no nos dimos cuenta hasta mucho después de lo que estaba ocurriendo. Y por tanto, dijimos "paremos todas las publicaciones que tenemos pendientes y pidamos a todo el equipo amplio que está en torno de Alba Sud, pongámonos a reflexionar y analizaron que nos equivoquemos, pero pongámonos a analizar que cambios supone esto." Y en ese memento, alguna gente se reía de nosotros. Decía que seamos futurologia, que si habíamos convertido Alba Sud en una bola de cristal y que pretendíamos invocar el futuro. Y de hecho, lo que intentábamos hacer era el análisis desde la economía política para entender qué es lo que nos venía encima y de alguna manera, respondiendo a la pregunta que nos hacía [00:14:00] Macia, yo creo que lo que ha cambiado mi pensamiento es la intuición.O sea lo que antes era una intuición de que debíamos trabajar, generando conocimiento fuera de las lógicas de la reproducción académica y teníamos que generar conocimiento vinculado a los problemas sentidos por la gente más desfavorecida, que esa institución estaba en lo cierto y que había un espacio para hacer eso y que era necesario hacerlo.Y que este era un espacio que debíamos construir en relación con el mundo de las universidades de la academia, pero independiente de él, pero también independiente de las empresas, que es lo que vimos que también les había ocurrido algunas ONGs que durante años trabajaron tratando de generar algún tipo de pensamiento en torno de turismo, pero que rápidamente habían caído en una cierta trampa de pensar que era posible incidir en las empresas, generar dinámicas de responsabilidad, etcétera. Y nosotros pensamos que la cosa no iba por ahí, que la cosa tenía que ver con cómo [00:15:00] fortalecíamos otros actores para que pudieran combatir, resistir y construir cosas fuera de los marcos del capitalismo. Entonces, yo creo que, no sé si cambiaron muchas las cosas en términos de pensamiento, pero si se consolidó una convicción de lo que empezamos a hacer de una forma un poco intuitiva, se acabó convirtiendo en un espacio de investigación, de colaboración, de acompañamiento, de formación, de ciencia política para para un montón de gente que está vinculado con el turismo.Chris: Yeah. Gracias, Ernest. Pues yo siento que esa intuicion ha abierto un montón en los últimos años. Y hay un montón de gente en muchos lados, normalmente los lugares turisteados o sobreturisteados dando cuenta y dando cuenta no solo de [00:16:00] las consecuencias, pero de los patrones y pues, a dónde vamos con los patrones o canales de turismo convencional, pero también, como dijiste, en el turismo, como un gran factor dentro de la expansión y destrucción del capitalismo en nuestro tiempo. Entonces, a través de Alba Sud y Icaria Editorial en España, ustedes han publicado recientemente una antología titulada El Malestar en la Turistificación: Pensamiento Crítico Para Una Transformación de Turismo. Hay toneladas de capítulos fascinantes, tengo que decir, de excelentes autores y investigadores, incluidos trabajos que hacen referencia Silvia Federici y David Harvey, Pierre Biourdeau, Donna Haraway, Foucault, Graeber, y Ursula Le Guin, entre otros. [00:17:00] Estoy curioso, Ernest, cuál fue el impulso detrás de la creación de este antología? Ernest: Muchas veces, buena parte de las cosas que hacemos o que impulsamos de que son más grandes, vienen de una llamada telefónica con Ivan Murray y nos llamamos decimos, "tenemos que hacer esto, tenemos que hacerlo otro."Y de estas llamadas, lo que acabamos, y luego es algunos elevándolas a cabo. En este caso concreto, recurrentemente, teníamos una reflexión que cada vez era menos interesante leer sobre el turismo o que nos interesaba menos leer sobre turismo y que para entender el turismo, necesitábamos leer otras cosas. Y incluso la gente que nos dedicamos a los análisis críticos del turismo, nos dábamos cuenta de que estábamos leyendo mucho solamente entre nosotros.Y que de alguna manera estábamos reproduciendo lo mismo que le pasaba la academia vinculada al turismo. Es una academia muy endogámica, [00:18:00] muy auto concentrada que discute los mismos temas que se cita unos a otros y nos dábamos cuenta que de alguna manera, los que nos dictábamos a la crítica y a la propuesta fuera de esos marcos, teníamos el riesgo de no estar captando parte de la complejidad que tenía el desarrollo turístico en la medida que este se estaba haciendo cada vez más grande y que estaba penetrando en más esferas de la vida. Y ahí la idea fue, necesitamos hacer cuando compartíamos con Iván y luego se sumó Clément Marie dit Chirot, que es un profesor de la Universidad de Angers, que colabora también con con Alba Sud.De ahí surgió la idea de decir bueno, nos compartíamos tú que estás leyendo, que te está interesando. Y ahí empezamos a compartir autores y autoras. Y nació la idea deberíamos hacer algo con esto. Hicimos un primer seminario en Barcelona sobre la obra de David Harvey y en Lefevbre de qué nos pueden aportar estos dos autores a la comprensión [00:19:00] actual del desarrollo turístico.Y fue un seminario por eso el libro en parte, a veces la gente dice, por qué tanto Harvey y tanto Lefevbre, porque el origen del libro tenía que ver con este primer seminario que fue una prueba, un ensayo, de cómo podemos hacer que autores que no necesariamente han hablado sobre turismo, cómo podemos hacer que dialogan con nuestro objeto de de análisis?Y ahí hicimos un poco el mismo llamado que habíamos hecho en 2020 en cuando empezamos a trabajar en torno de la pandemia, que eso se convirtió en dos libros. Uno que fue Turistificación Confinada y otro Turismos de Proximidad, que fue el mismo proceso de empezar a preguntar a nuestros colegas, amigos, compañeros y compañeras, en qué estaban trabajando, que estaban viendo que estaban...Pues hicimos lo mismo, empezar a preguntar en nuestro entorno del equipo de Alba Sud, personas que colaboran, qué autores estaban leyendo que les interesaba y que no hubieran hablado antes de turismo? Y como [00:20:00] podíamos hacer el ejercicio de llevarlos a los análisis turísticos con el fin de robustecerlos, de hacerlos más sólidos, de incorporar dimensiones que si solamente nos fijábamos en lo que veníamos leyendo y escribiendo sobre el turismo, a lo mejor se nos estaban escapando. Por supuesto, nos quedaron un montón de trabajos de referencias fuera de este marco, es decir nos salía un volumen con 25 capítulos y nos podía haber salido perfectamente un segundo volumen, que es algo que no descartamos, pero no en términos inmediatos por el cantidad de trabajo que también supone.Pero si logramos poner en diálogo una serie de personas que nos permitían, de alguna manera, enriquecer el análisis turístico y brindar a gente que se estaban metiendo en determinados temas desde el ámbito de la comprensión, de lo como funciona el turismo, encontrar referencias teóricas, críticas con el capitalismo que le pudieran ayudar a [00:21:00] como mínimo, abrir caminos, entender qué lecturas podríamos hacer a partir de ellas.Seguro que hay autoras o autores que podrían haber tenido otro tipo de lectura, pero es la que hicieron las personas que colaboran con nosotros y de alguna manera era una de las posibles lecturas. Y bueno, ese es el origen del libro y la motivación. Chris: Ajá. Y me gustaría preguntarte sobre, pues, tu capítulo sobre Eric Ollin Wright, pero antes de eso, me gustaría preguntarte qué tipo de reflexiones te sorprendiste más fuera de tus propios investigaciones? Ernest: Sí, Ivan, Clemente y yo no solo lemos, sino que editamos y discutimos todos los capítulos.Tuvimos que rechazar lamentablemente también algunos. En algunos casos, había gente que nos mandó escritos que eran más complejos que el propio autor. Elegimos necesitamos que se entienda o en otros casos, la lectura no nos interesaba mucho. [00:22:00] No fue que aceptáramos todo, en este proceso.Y para mí, uno de los descubrimientos fue Jason Moore y el trabajo que hizo Iván con él para pensar o plantear la hipótesis del fin del turismo barato. Esto ha dado lugar un proyecto de investigación en el que estamos en la Universidad de Las Islas Baleares, con el grupo CRIGUST en el que estoy trabajando, pensando decir, bueno, qué significa este escenario de emergencias crónicas, esta dinámica, la cual el capitalismo ha funcionado a partir de la lógica de disponer de naturalezas baratas... qué significa si esto empieza a acabarse? Y hasta qué punto este modelo de desarrollo turístico que hemos tenido las últimas décadas en realidad no está objeto a demasiadas tensiones? Está demasiado en crisis y habría que tal vez plantear la hipótesis del fin del turismo barato, pero la [00:23:00] apertura de nuevos escenarios y sobre esta hipótesis estamos estamos desarrollando un proyecto de investigación y de alguna manera también ha servido para nosotros desde Alba Sud para pensar los escenarios de esta dinámica de reactivación. Decir no, no todo es igual a lo que venía siendo antes. Yo creo que para entender el memento actual del desarrollo turístico a nivel global, hay que situarnos en dos crisis:ya antes mencionamos el programa neoliberal y como el neoliberalismo incorpora el turismo con un mecanismo de expansión por al mismo tiempo de estabilización. Pero las dos últimas crisis la de 2008 y 2020 generan un salto de escala en términos de turistificación, un proceso turistificación global como nunca habíamos vivido, siendo un salto exponencial, en parte porque después de la crisis de 2008 se produce una situación en la cual las vías que habían optado a través de los préstamos [00:24:00] bancarios, la construcción, hipotecas, etcétera, colapsa y no es posible seguir reproduciendo el capital a través de esas vías. Y esto necesita encontrar otros mecanismos a traves de los cuales el capital se puede reproducir. Ahí, david Harvey ha hablado muchas veces de la importancia que tiene la urbanización de China en este proceso de salida de la crisis de 2008. Nosotros entendemos que, además de esto, el papel del turismo es clave. No es casualidad que una empresa como Airbnb nazca en 2008, que se produzca esta expansión del turismo urbano. Es decir, tiene que ver con esta lógica. Y la pandemia de alguna manera lo que hace es detener, pero al mismo tiempo, una salida, una reacción de los capitales muy agresiva por recuperar lo que no han ganado en los años anteriores.Y por tanto, se produce como una vuelta de tuerca más en esta dinámica. En este punto, para eso no es útil el pensamiento de Jason Moore, que yo lo leo fundamentalmente [00:25:00] como aportación de Iván Murray en esta obra que hacemos, en el malestar de la turistificación. Esta hipótesis del fin del turismo barato que planteamos a partir de la relectura de Jason Moore, lo que nos permite pensar es, o interpretar más bien , la dinámica de redituación es igual que la anterior a la crisis o hay algo cualitativamente distinto? Y hay algo cualitativamente distinto, porque estamos ante un escenario de riesgo para este desarrollo capitalista vinculado a las naturalezas baratas.Y ahí es donde nos damos cuenta que, en parte hay un efecto champagne, que cerca las reactuaciones no has podido viajar durante dos años y cuando hay la apertura, la gente sale. Pero más allá de esto y que nos expresa en estos últimos años de una forma desmesurada de tenemos turismo en los destinos más purificados, turismo de todo tipo, desde lujo a despedidas de [00:26:00] soltero o de soltero, que no alquilan ni una habitación, que sencillamente pasan de noche el viernes y el sábado de fiesta y se va en el domingo y ya está. O sea, tenemos de todo.Y ahí es donde recupero a Jason Moore y la ideas del fin de las del turismo barato, este riesgo de fin de turismo barato, lo que nos empezamos a dar cuenta es que empieza a ver una mayor competencia entre territorios, entre ciudades, por atraer un turismo de mayor poder adquisitivo. Se dan cuenta que hemos salido de la crisis y hay una serie de emergencias crónicas o lo que algunos le llaman policrisis que siguen estando presentes, que tienen que ver con el cambio climático, con la crisis de combustibles o la crisis energética y la crisis de materiales con las interrupciones a las cadenas globales de suministros, con las tensiones geopolíticas. Y todo esto nos ponen alerta de los riesgos que tiene el [00:27:00] desarrollo turístico. Si estamos en un escenario muy vulnerable. Además, después de la salida, empezamos a ver que hay un nivel de destrucción de los ecosistemas enorme, que no decir, esta lógica de crecimiento constante es inviable, porque hemos superado con mucho la capacidad del planeta y en ese contexto también vemos otro naturaleza barata que empieza a ser cuestionada, que es el trabajo, es decir la idea de la renuncia, de la dimisión, y uno de los grandes problemas que tienen las empresas en estos momentos es la falta de personal, gente que no quiere trabajar ahí y que busca trabajo en otros sitios.Entonces, en ese contexto que llamamos de emergencias crónicas que además se retroalimentan unas con otras, lo que empezamos a ver es que los capitales, a través de las autoridades públicas en distintos territorios, empiezan a competir por atraer un turista de mayor poder adquisitivo. Buscan cómo concentrar esa franja de segmento [00:28:00] turístico que va a ser menos sensibles a situaciones de crisis, que va a seguir viajando y cómo traerlo.Y implica un programa de gasto público enorme en términos de infraestructuras para traerlos en términos de promoción internacional, términos de macro-eventos para consolidar esa atracción. El problema es que, por definición, los turistas de mayor poder adquisitivo son mucho menos que la clase media o las clases trabajadoras en las que se ha sentado el turismo en las últimas décadas.Y por tanto, esa competencia entre territorios, por atraer ese segmento turístico de mayor poder adquisitivo, se incrementan. Es una competencia feroz por atraer a ese tipo de turistas y yo creo que estamos en este en este contexto. Y yo creo que no nos hubiéramos dado cuenta si una de las hipótesis posibles que formulamos a partir del libro en Malestar en la Turistificación no fuera precisamente esta [00:29:00] idea que extraemos de Jason Moore sobre el fin de las naturalezas baratas.La otra hipótesis tiene que ver con el trabajo que desarrolla a partir de Erik Ollin Wright sobre las posibilidades y cómo de transformar el sistema capitalista, hablando también desde el turismo, que es algo que Erik Ollin Wright nunca hizo, pero no sé si querías que habláramos ahora de él o o como quieres que lo planteemos.Chris: Pues sí, sí, me encantaría si podrías platicar un poco sobre Erik Ollin Wright, porque escogiste el específicamente, pero también para empezar, porque el capítulo que escribiste está titulado como un Turismo Postcapitalista: Siguiendo Los Pasos de Erik Ollin Wright.Entonces, antes de meternos en sus obras y su trabajo me gustaría preguntarte, pues, cómo defines Postcapitalismo?Ernest: Yo parto un posicionamiento anticapitalista. Y no tengo ninguna duda. Si me [00:30:00] opongo a a este modelo de producción, creo que nos lleva el desastre tanto en términos humanos como planetarios. Desde esa posición de esa convicción anticapitalista, lo que plantea es la necesidad de encontrar salidas que nos lleven a otro escenario.Podríamos llamarle socialismo. Podríamos llamarle ecosocialismo. No lo sé. Me interesa más pensar la posibilidad de pensar horizontes que escapen del capitalismo. Este es el posicionamiento. A veces hay gente que duda, porque una cosa o la otra. No una cosa o la otra. Si partimos del anticapitalismo para intentar construir algo fuera del capitalismo, pero no es algo tampoco mecánico, es algo que construimos. No es una fase superior del capitalismo. Después del capitalismo podría ser formas de violencia y de explotación mucho mayores. Es algo que tenemos que construir. Entonces, la idea es no resistimos, confrontamos con las lógicas capitalistas y desde [00:31:00] intentamos construir algo distinto, algo que podemos llamarle metafóricamente del momento postcapitalismo, pero no es contradictorio una posición con la otra. A partir de ahí, yo, sinceramente, estoy en este camino de buscar como pensar las posibilidades de transformación. Esto lo tenía claro. Y cuando me acerco a distintos autores, Erik Ollin Wright no era un autor que me resultaba especialmente simpático. Venía de una tradición socialdemócrata. Venía del marxismo analítico, que era algo que no especialmente me seducía.Si me interesaba una cosa especialmente de su obra, que era el rigor metodológico en las formas de analizar la sociedad. Esto me a atrevía especialmente. Es decir, salir fuera de las metáforas y del lenguaje a veces tan obtuso del marxismo y empezar a construir utilizando las mejores herramientas de las que disponemos en un determinado memento desde las ciencias [00:32:00] sociales.Esto reconozco que era algo que sí que me atraía, pero no es necesariamente todo el pensamiento de Erik Ollin Wright y Erik Ollin Wright me interesa partir de leer Utopía Reales y después Como Ser Anticapitalista en el Siglo XXI, por la visión que tiene. El lo que hace es un intento de recuperar distintas tradiciones de la izquierda para pensar un programa de acción complementario.Y a mi, esta idea me seduce especialmente, cómo pensamos en términos complementarios. Es decir cómo la acción de uno es la que uno puede hacer, la que uno desea hacer o la que las condiciones le han marcado, pero no son mejores ni peores que las que hace el otro compañero que está desde otra trinchera y como dejamos de competir por cuál es la mejor idea y empezamos a reconocernos que unos están intentando transformaciones desde el ámbito, de la lucha política parlamentaria, otros lo hacen desde del mundo sindical, otros desde del mundo [00:33:00] ecologistas y otros de cooperativismo. Reintegrar, repensar conjuntamente esas distintas tradiciones de acción de la izquierda.Me parecía que era algo necesario. Discrepo en una posición de Erik Ollin Wright que no acabo compartir, que es esta idea de negar la posibilidad de la revolución. Y me explico, Erik Ollin Wright dice en parte como buen social demócrata, lo que viene a decir es, después de las experiencias históricas, es fácilmente reconocible que cuando hemos tomado el poder después de un proceso revolucionario, las dinámicas que hemos generado después casi han sido peores que contra lo que combatíamos. Y probablemente tenga razón.Y yo he vivido 11 años en Nicaragua y sé de lo que estoy hablando. Se de qué significa los supuestos nuestros cuando están en el poder. Entonces, cuidado con esta idea, la simple toma del poder en [00:34:00] nombre de una bandera, de una determinada cristalización ideológica es ya un futuro deseable y mejor. Cuidado porque efectivamente generamos monstruos peores.Pero lo que discrepo con Erik Ollin Wright es que, si bien, en sí misma la toma del poder no te garantiza una sociedad ni mucho más justa, ni mucho más equitativa, sino que al final, muchas veces lo que te encuentras son dinámicas de estabilización de nuevos grupos que ascienden al poder y desde ahí ejercen el control.Pero lo que sí, quiero que no podemos renunciar a la idea de la movilización social, incluso de la toma del poder político como un mecanismo defensivo, como un mecanismo de respuesta ante el desorden que genera el capitalismo. En estos contextos, aunque fuera para salvaguardar dinámicas democráticas, aunque fuera para salvaguardar, creo que no podemos renunciar a la herramienta [00:35:00] revolución, pensado probablemente en términos defensivos no ofensivos, si no pensando que vamos a cambiar y vamos a generar un mundo mejor a partir de la toma del poder inmediata. Pero sí, salvaguardarlo como un mecanismo defensivo ante la lógica del avance del desorden que genera el capitalismo, la posibilidad de restaurar ciertos equilibrios a través de procesos revolucionarios.Creo que esta es la idea que recuperamos de Walter Benjamin cuando dicen que a veces se marca como la revolución, como la locomotora de la historia y el dice más bien, es el freno de mano. Es decir, es ante el despeñadero pensar en esto. Bueno, esto mi distancia de esta posición tan categórica de Erik Ollin Wright, pero en cambio, me parece interesante cómo construir una posibilidad de un mundo post capitalista a partir de cuatro grandes estrategias o vías de lo que ella denomina erosión del [00:36:00] capitalismo. O sea si no es posible darle la vuelta de inmediato, probablemente habrá que pensar en un tránsito a largo plazo en el cual este orden capitalista he agujereado desde distintos ámbitos de intervención y fundamentalmente desde el estado y desde fuera del estado.Y él plantea esta idea del desmantelar, domesticar, huir y resistir como formas de intervención. Y yo lo que hago en el capítulo es subir, bueno, si el turismo es tan importante en el capitalismo, cómo podríamos pensar estas categorías, estas dinámicas de ejes de intervención que contribuyen a erosionar el capitalismo de ir agujereándolo, de ir creando nuevas lógicas, aunque sean frágiles, aunque sean temporales, pero como mostrar, y como de algún modo ir asentando y que iba creciendo áreas de funcionamiento social que no reproducen las lógicas del capitalismo, sino que [00:37:00] avancen en otras direcciones. Y esto en un largo proceso que nos vaya avanzando, que nos permite avanzar.Y yo lo que intento hacer es cómo podría ser esto desde el turismo? Y ahí implica, por una parte, la intervención desde el estado, es decir por un lado, desde el estado, entendiendo al estado cómo la cristalización de una determinada correlación de fuerzas en un determinado memento. Podríamos pensarlo en términos de, bueno, es la reproducción de, es el mecanismo que tienen las clases dominantes para reproducir bien. Yo quiero más bien siguiendo otros autores de la tradicion marxista, como Poblanzas y otros más bien entendiendo como una cristalización de una determinada correlación de fuerzas. Y esto puede cambiar. Bien, desde esa perspectiva, pensar como desde el estado, podemos intervenir abriendo dinámicas que funcionen fuera de las lógicas del capitalismo. Una de ellas que no significa que sean necesariamente anticapitalistas, que a veces ayudan a [00:38:00] estabilizar el mismo capitalismo, pero pueden ser leídas de múltiples maneras.Una de ellas tiene que ver con esta idea de ponerle límites al capital, introduciendo mecanismos de control, de regulación, de fiscalidad. Es decir desde la inspección del trabajo hasta la fiscalidad hasta las tonificaciones en determinadas ciudades de qué se puede hacer, si podemos permitir más hoteles o no podemos permitirlos, cierto?Todo esta dimensión de "desde el estado," cómo ponemos mecanismos de limitación y contención al desarrollo de capital turístico? Otra vía, otra estrategias, como desde el mismo estado, generamos igual que por ejemplo, hemos hecho en algunos países en el ámbito de la salud o en el ámbito de la educación, cómo establecemos programas públicos que garanticen el acceso a las vacaciones, al descanso, etc. de una parte de la población, con programas de turismo social, [00:39:00] con creación de infraestructuras, desde parques urbanos a mejora transporte público, acompañamiento los programas de la economía social y solidaria, el cooperativismo. Es decir cómo desde el estado generamos dinámicas que contribuían a garantizar el acceso de los sectores más desfavorecidos a vacaciones. La tercer eje de intervención de que plantea Erik Ollin Wright tiene que ver con la idea de resistir resistir fuera del estado, es decir, resistir en el combate a este desorden que genera el capitalismo, el capital turístico.Y esto implica resistir desde dentro de las empresas con las organizaciones sindicales, pero tremendas de fuera desde los movimientos comunitarios, ecologistas, vecinales, es decir, ponerle límites al capital, no solamente esperando lo que va a hacer el estado con políticas públicas, sino que hacemos de forma organizada colectivamente dentro y fuera de las empresas.[00:40:00] Y la cuarta dimensión de esta proceso de entender mecanismos de erosión del capitalismo y en este caso, del capitalismo de base turística, sería la idea de huir. Hay que salir ya hoy y aquí de este mundo capitalista. Y esto implica crear cooperativas, ensayar formas de organización distinta que nos permitan garantizar vacaciones, descanso, formas diversas de construir el ocio que pueden incluir el desplazamiento.Y esto podemos hacerlo fundamentalmente desde las organizaciones comunitarias, desde el ámbito de las cooperativas, pero también desde fuera del mercado. Es decir, si la tutela del estado y si la tutela del mercado. Es decir, reorganización del ocio popular sin pasar por el mercado. Esto que en algunos países llamamos domingueros, dominguiar, hacer uso del día del señor para [00:41:00] descansar o tocarnos las narices o leer debajo un árbol. Es esta idea de hacer lo que queramos de forma autoorganizada, en colectivo o individualmente. Es decir, abrir estos espacios. Entonces yo creo que estas cuatro dimensiones es lo que nos permite pensar la posibilidad de una transformación del turismo bajo otras lógicas. Y aquí creo que hay que introducir un matiz porque a veces siento que hay una cierta confusión, como si todo fuera un problema de palabras. Es decir que nos negamos a utilizar la palabra turismo porque es una palabra que es capital.Bueno, nosotros, lo que reivindicamos fundamentalmente es el tiempo libre, el tiempo liberado del trabajo. Esto es lo que nosotros reivindicamos. Y creo que eso es lo que tenemos derecho a el tiempo que liberamos del trabajo para poder hacer lo que necesitemos en términos de descanso, de alimento de nuestro pensamiento, de goce, de desarrollo, de posibilidades.[00:42:00] Esto es lo que nos interesa. Y esto se puede organizar en el propio lugar de residencia en tu espacio próximo de residencia en términos de ocio, de entretenimiento, de recreación. Pero si implica desplazamiento, es cuando empezamos a hablar de turismo y este turismo, podemos organizarlo que implica ocio más desplazamiento.Esto podemos organizarlo, que es como hemos hecho hasta ahora, bajo las lógicas del capitalismo para reproducir el capital o podemos organizar este ocio con desplazamiento para satisfacer necesidades humanas. Y ahí es donde creo que tenemos el centro de la propuesta. Es decir, cómo pensar que una práctica humana, una práctica social no pueda ser solamente definida por las lógicas de reproducción del capital, sino que tenemos que poder desarrollarla bajo otras lógicas. Y esta es la reivindicación. Es decir, no resignarnos a que solamente el [00:43:00] capital organice nuestras vidas. Hay una frase de David Harvey que tiene toda la razón cuando dice no hay ninguna idea moralmente buena que el capitalismo no pueda compartir en algo horroroso.Y tiene toda la razón. El capitalismo tiene la capacidad para hacer esto, pero nosotros también pensamos que al mismo tiempo, no hay ninguna práctica social que no podamos organizar bajo otras lógicas distintas a las del capitalismo, que un mundo socialista, un mundo ecosocialista, podría ser organizado bajo otras lógicas y eso tiene que empezar ya ahora y aquí. No esperar a que venga una revolución y no sabemos cómo saldremos de ésa, sino que tenemos que empezar a organizarlo ya ahora y aquí. Yo creo que esta es la segunda hipótesis con la que construimos a partir de este libro del Malestar en la Turistificacion, que creo que, como mínimo a mí, hay muchísimas más lecturas del libro.Pero a [00:44:00] mí esta idea que extraemos de Jason Moore en torno al fin del turismo barato y la disyuntiva entre elitizacion o empezamos a pensar propuestas de transformación que den respuesta a las necesidades de la mayoría social, esta segunda hipótesis es lo que creo que sale con más fuerza de este libro. O como mínimo es mi lectura.Estoy seguro que otras compañeras y otros compañeros han hecho otras lecturas del del libro y les está estimulando para hacer otras cosas. Y creo que esa es la potencia que tiene el libro, que es empezar a robustecer el pensamiento crítico en turismo con abriendo nosotros posibilidades. Chris: Mm-hmm. Wow,Gracias, Ernest. Este yo creo que para mucho de nosotros, más ustedes que tiene mucho más tiempo en las investigaciones, los límites o el límite es la palabra, es el concepto [00:45:00] central de cómo podemos pensar, distintamente cuando estabas hablando de esas cosas, yo pensé, casi no hay límites a los instituciones que tenemos en el mundo capitalista moderna, solo los límites que los instituciones ponen en uno mismo. Pero luego tenemos que invertir lo que está pasando en el sentido de poner límites en las instituciones y luego poner en pausa las límites que son impuestos a nuestras lógicas, nuestras capacidades o maneras de pensar el mundo, de entender al mundo, pero también de pensar de otros mundos.Y entonces, poner un límite en cuántas vuelos puede llegar en un lugar en un día o cuántos hoteles podemos construir, etcétera. Cuántos turistas podemos tener? Pero al final cuando yo pienso en eso, a veces pienso como los pueblos en México y Oaxaca en donde vivo que algunos son pueblos ecoturísticos y tienen economías relativamente cerradas o relativamente mucho más [00:46:00] cerradas que las ciudades y eso y que tienen la capacidad, que si se hacen, se ponen los límites y se dice vamos a aceptar toda x cantidad de gente en este año porque entendemos que Los recursos o la naturaleza alrededor va a sufrir sino. Pero también se este. Hay otras preguntas, eh, como de la influencia social, el intercambio de capital entre gente de culturas distintas que viene con expectativas.Pero entonces quizás empezamos con la la cuestión de resistencia, porque a México, como muchos otros países que dependen en gran medida de las economías turísticas, las formas de resistencia política, no todas, pero algunas sí, que se emprenden contra esas economías a menudo apuntan a los turistas como los principales beneficiarios o cupables. Parece haber una fuerte resistencia a nombrar a la población local como dependiente y defensora de estas [00:47:00] economías. Si vamos a construir una resistencia política que abarque las necesidades económicas de todas las personas dentro de un lugar, cómo podemos ir más allá de esta crítica, yo digo superficial, que tiene la capacidad de esencializar a los extranjeros y infantalizar a los locales. Ernest: Yo creo que, bueno, has dicho un montón de cosas que me sugieren en reacción. Ah, pero para empezar por el final, yo diría que muchas veces nos encontramos con formas des legitimación de las protestas diciendo bueno, todos somos turistas, como si tuviéramos que tener un comportamiento virtuoso, decir apelando una cierta coherencia individual en todos nuestros comportamientos.De hecho, lo que están haciendo con este tipo de críticas, es sencillamente negar la legitimidad de las reivindicaciones, decir, señalando la contradicción como si todo fuera un problema individual [00:48:00] de comportamientos individuales. Y cuando lo que nos estamos diciendo es esto es un problema político, no de una persona en concreto, sea turista o sea población local que resiste y luego hace turismo, si el problema dejémonos ya de moralismo y de buscar ciudadanos virtuosos moralmente. Y empecemos a plantear que ambas son las estructuras políticas que pongan límites a este capital turístico. Yo creo que el grueso de la pelea es salir de esta idea de la responsabilidad individual de quedar atrapados en estas ideas de responsabilidad que tampoco sin desmerecerla, es decir es otro campo de intervención, pero el centro no puede ser la decisión individual y la coherencia individual en relación a nuestros comportamientos. Tiene que ver con dinámicas estructurales y lo que hay que cambiar son dinámicas de conjunto y para eso se falta hacer política con mayúsculas, ,implica movilización, pero para [00:49:00] cambiar estructuras. Cuál es el problema que a veces en esta maraña de capitales, que haces más difícil de identificar quién es el responsable de estas políticas o de estas violencias? Si quienes al final del último, que toma decisiones detrás de estos fondos de inversión. En cambio, el turista lo tenemos cerca y puede ser efectivamente blanco del malestar, porque es el que tienes más cerca. Entonces, y yo creo que desde los medios de comunicación, se nos intenta situar en ese terreno, a cuando se pone en circulación la idea de turismofobia, que empieza sobre todo en Barcelona y que luego circula a nivel internacional.Es una campaña dirigida a quitar la legitimación al movimiento vecinal que está protestando. No hay turismofobia. Puede haber alguien que de un día te caiga mal a alguien, pero no es un problema contra una persona. Lo que pasa es que a veces al que tienes cerca, el que te molesta es el turista, [00:50:00] es la parte final de ese proceso y es mucho más difícil señalar a las autoridades públicas, locales, nacionales, internacionales que han diseñado esos marcos de representación, a las empresas escondidas en esas dinámicas financieras.Entonces yo creo que es un proceso contradictorio, pero que, al mismo tiempo, no debemos renunciar a él. Es decir, aquí la cuestión no tiene que ver con como eres más o menos coherente, más o menos responsable, siendo población local, receptora o siendo turista o siendo muchas cosas a la vez. No tiene tanto que ver con eso, sino como reorganizamos el sistema de organizar el sistema turístico.Esta es la clave. Aquí está el problema. Y esto implica ponerle límites. Y como bien decías en tu primera parte, la intervención, si yo creo que la palabra límites adquirido, una connotación política fundamental. Las últimas manifestaciones que se están organizando [00:51:00] en España, en la que tuvimos hace dos, dos fines de semana en Barcelona, o la que va a ver este domingo en Palma, especialmente pongámosle límites al turismo.Pero esta demanda de ponerle límites y al mismo tiempo que le ponemos límites, tenemos que saber que hay una parte de la población que en España es de un 30 porciento, pero que la Union Europea gira en torno también otro 30% con niveles también muy desiguales, pero que cuando lo miramos desde América Latina, es mucho más, más de la mitad de la población que no puede hacer vacaciones. Es decir que estamos en esa discusión pero por otra parte, tenemos una parte de la población que no tiene infraestructuras que le permiten hacer vacaciones, sea desde que legalmente, no le permiten tener esas vacaciones en buenas condiciones, que no hay infraestructuras para que puedan pagárselas, que faltan programas públicos de calidad de turismo social que le [00:52:00] permitan disponer de esas infraestructuras.Entonces, yo creo que la dinámica es doble, es por uno de que ponerle límites al capital. Y hay que hacerlo como parte de una reflexión y de una intervención política no individual en términos morales, pero que al mismo tiempo, hay que plantear un horizonte de deseo. Queremos algo, queremos disfrutar del tiempo libre.Queremos disfrutar de un tiempo libre de calidad. Una de las formas posibles, no la única puede ser el turismo, que implicar este ocio más desplazamiento. Y para hacer esto y poder gozar de conocer otros espacios, otros lugares fuera de mi realidad cotidiana. Para hacer esto, necesitamos infraestructuras sociales que nos permiten hacerlo.Y yo creo que ahí está la batalla, por un lado, ponerle límites al capital y por otro lado, expandirnos. Ofreciendo un mundo deseable. Queremos disponer de tiempo libre. [00:53:00] Queremos desarrollarnos en nuestro tiempo libre. Queremos que nuestro tiempo libre lo podamos organizar en la proximidad en nuestra casa, en nuestros alrededores, pero puntualmente también viajando.Y eso significa disponer de infraestructuras públicas y también de mecanismos porque el dinero y el mercado va a ser la única forma de decidir quien vuela y quien no vuela. Si tenemos que ir un mundo con muchos menos vuelos, serán los que puedan pagarlos o podemos organizarlo de otro modo. Cuántas veces puedes volar al año? Cuántas veces puedes hacer por cuánto tiempo? Como podemos, si le imp, implica un un ejercicio que a veces, cuando lo planteas, parece que esta gente no vive en el mundo, que la realidad es otra efectivamente. Ocurre esto, pero para avanzar en esta dirección, necesitamos horizontes de esperanza, horizontes que nos digan debemos ir para allá, no solamente como pérdida de privilegios, no [00:54:00] solamente por restringirnos porque el planeta se desmonta, sino porque queremos vivir mejor y queremos vivir mejor todos.Entonces, yo creo que esta conjunción, porque si no tenemos otro problema que tiene que ver con el crecimiento de la extrema derecha en un mundo de inseguridades en un mundo de amenazas, quién está ofreciendo seguridades, aunque sea con discursos racistas xenófobos de culpar al penúltimo, culpando al último. Es decir en este contexto, cómo podemos organizar dinámicas que a la vez que le ponemos límites a este desarrollo turístico capitalista, estemos ofreciendo seguridades, seguridades en términos de el control implica también mejores de condiciones de trabajo. Y el control sobre esto es también para poder organizar el turismo de otra manera que tú no pierdas tu trabajo, sino que podamos organizarlo de otra manera y que podamos satisfacer las necesidades [00:55:00] que tiene mucha más gente.Yo creo que la cosa va por ahí entre la resistencia y la propuesta de un mundo deseable también en el turismo. Chris: Ya ya igual subió mi mente como esa noción de el ocio, el tiempo de ocio son momentos también fuera de trabajo que en un análisis puede decir que el trabajo es un tipo de esclavitud moderna, a veces no, pero a veces sí, muchas veces creo y que tiempo de ocio o descanso es un tiempo también para organizarse.Organizar la comunidad. Organizar por otros mundos o contra lo que tienes, eh? Pero el turismo parece que también ha sido como un herramienta contra eso. O sea, ya tienes tu tiempo descanso. Pero mira, mira, mira las playas de Cuba... Ernest: No es exclusivo del turismo. Es decir, cuando hablamos de turismo, estamos hablando de ocio, más desplazamiento. [00:56:00] Si no nos desplazamos, resulta que este ocio que hacemos desde nuestra casa es el mas emancipatorio del mundo. Es decir, estar en casa viendo Netflix es lo mejor, estar yendo al centro comercial a pasear porque hubiese en un mundo de inseguridades de mierda.Es decir, en este contexto, esto no es algo exclusivo del turismo. También desde el ocio, tenemos estas dinámicas de alineación y de mercantilizacion. Entonces, necesitamos salir de las palabras para construir escenarios que nos permitan satisfacer necesidades y expandir posibilidades, capacidades de la gente de explorar y vivir mejor.Pero hay muchos ejemplos que te permiten de manera diversa y es parte de lo que decíamos al principio de la conversación de en lo que estamos trabajando en Alba Sud de intentarse sistematizar un montón de estas experiencias que han [00:57:00] probado aspectos distintos de transformación, de salir de estas lógicas y avanzar en otras direcciones.Y quiero que el problema es que muchas veces la academia no ha puesto atención en estas posibilidades. Y en cambio, en la vida, en la vida cotidiana, hay muchas más cosas que se están haciendo que no hace falta que nos pongamos a inventar que también, pero empecemos también por reconocer y recuperar muchas de las cosas que están en nuestra propia historia y también en nuestro alrededor, en en estos otros contextos que podemos encontrar experiencias ricas en estas otras formas y las encontraremos en el ocio y las encontraremos en el turismo. Pero a veces tengo la sensación de que cuando solamente identificábamos el turismo como un proceso de mercantilizacion, nos estamos pegando un tiro al pie. El turismo, igual que muchas otras cosas, puede ser eso y efectivamente es una dinámica de reproducción del capital que [00:58:00] genera violencia, violencia estructural y directa. Nos tenemos que resignar a que solamente pueda ser eso. Podríamos imaginar cómo construimos eso de otra manera y para imaginar, empecemos por reconocer lo que está en otro alrededor que ya está funcionando de otras maneras y que a lo mejor algunas de estas experiencias son frágiles, son limitadas, tienen contradicciones, fracasan, pero muestran que durante un tiempo ha sido posible organizar esto.La próxima fracasaremos mejor. Y a la siguiente, lo haremos perfecto. Es decir, es un proceso constante de tensión, de organización, de intento de generar cambios que nos permitan construir una vida digna, que también pasa por recuperar ese tiempo libre que lo podremos organizar de maneras distintas. Y ahí podríamos o no incluir el turismo en función de nuestras necesidades y posibilidades.Chris: Gracias, Ernest. Gracias por ofrecer eso y [00:59:00] clarificar. Entonces, si podemos imaginar otros mundos, otras formas de caminar y caminar juntos, podemos comenzar a dar pasos hacia esos caminos. Si pudieras imaginar un otro mundo de esa manera, libre de las limitaciones contemporáneas de las fronteras estatales, la hospitalidad industrial y las expectativas extractivas cómo sería para ti, Ernest?Ese viaje que tanto deseas hacer sería una peregrinación? Sería posible solo una vez en tu vida? Cómo sería ese viaje para ti? Ernest: Claro, yo diferenciaría y pensaría en que necesariamente sea plural. Es decir, que las opciones sean múltiples. No hay una respuesta, no hay una forma de organizar otro turismo. Hay o deben haber muchas formas. En función de las muchas necesidades que tenga la gente. El otro día, en una entrevista, a preguntar cómo hacías vacaciones tú cuando eras adolescente? Como pensando en [01:00:00] cómo encontrar ese anexo en lo que ahora me preocupa y yo digo, lo que hacía era pasarme en los veranos en la biblioteca. Y lo que deseaba era tener infraestructuras públicas de calidad en la que pudieras leer sin ruido, constantemente. Y quería infraestructuras públicas que me permitieran hacer eso. Y creo que una forma de organizar tu tiempo libre tiene que ver con que dispongamos de infraestructuras públicas que nos permitan organizarlo.Y ahí, no hay una sola forma, ni una sola necesidad. La mía tiene que ver con esto o ha tenido que ver con esto en un determinado momento de mi vida y para otros es otra y para otros es una distinta. Entonces yo me imagino no un camino, sino me imagino unos muchos caminos que pueden responder a formas y necesidades distintas.Si me imagino programas robustos potentes de calidad de turismo social en el que [01:01:00] la gente pueda acceder al mar, puede acceder a la montaña, puede acceder a espacios que en la cercanía y tomando en cuenta a los límites del planeta, podamos movilizarnos masivamente para dormir fuera de nuestra casa, viendo las experiencias, pero que no solamente en infraestructuras o espacios natural, sino que también implique un programa pedagógico pensado para cómo desarrollar potencialidades, como ver esas distintas apuestas.Pero veo esto y también veo con deseo, las apropiaciones que hace a la gente los parques públicos, como la gente se toma al parque y celebra fiestas y organiza actividades. Creo que necesitamos pensar en términos plurales. Es decir no hay unas vacaciones. A lo mejor en la vida, necesitaremos tener disponer de la posibilidad de organizar nuestros tiempos de trabajo de manera distinta, que nos permitan viajar más tiempo que en lugar de hacer lo que no tendría [01:02:00] sentido es pensar que podemos universalizar viajes de Alemania al Caribe por cuatro días.Eso no tiene ningún sentido, pero estamos seguros de que ya no podremos conocer otros territorios. A lo mejor será menos veces en la vida. Será por más tiempo. Será combinando trabajo con espacios de ocio con espacios. Es decir, creo que lo que debemos abrirnos es a la pluralidad de posibilidades de organizar esta parte de nuestro tiempo libre que hemos asociado con el desplazamiento.De alguna manera, yo creo que lo que necesitamos son horizontes por los que merezca la pena, no solamente resistir, sino movilizarse para avanzar hacia ellos. Queremos vivir mejor y tenemos derecho a vivir mejor. Tenemos que resistir todas las mierdas y todas las cabronadas que nos hace el capital. Pero al mismo tiempo, tenemos que poder aspirar a una [01:03:00] vida organizada bajo otras lógicas. Ahí es donde creo que que está la clave algo por lo que merezca la pena luchar.Chris: Gracias, Ernest por esas palabras muy importantes y tus reflexiones en el día dehoy, desde mí, mi parte y mi corazón y la parte de los oyentes también. Entonces, por último, Ernest, cómo podrían nuestros oyentes saber más sobre tu trabajo y Alba Sud y donde se pueden comprar el Malestar en la Turistificacion? Ernest: Al bas sud?Tenemos nuestra página web AlbaSud.Org. Ahí, todas nuestras publicaciones son de descarga gratuita. Tenemos una sección de formación en la que vamos recuperando todos los videos de los debates actividades que organizamos. Si la página web, la herramienta. Disponemos de un boletín que mandamos mensualmente.Estamos en redes [01:04:00] sociales varias, en Facebook, en Twitter, en Linkedin, disponemos de un canal en Telegram. Por ahí se pueden informar de lo que hacemos, de las actividades de las convocatorias y con Icaria que tenemos varios libros publicados, dependiendo del lugar en España, es posible en cualquier librería.Si no lo tienen, pedirlo y lo llevan. Y en muchos otros lugares, creo que hay que pedirlo directamente por la editorial. Es decir, en algunos países de América Latina, Icaria tiene distribución comercial normal. En otros es más difícil, pero en la página web de Icaria Editorial se pueden conseguir estos trabajos. Y si no lo encuentran, que nos escriban que algo resolveremos.Chris: Muy bien, pues voy a asegurar que todos esos enlaces están ya en el sitio de Fin de Turismo cuando lanza el episodio y una vez más Ernest, desee que tendríamos más tiempo para [01:05:00] platicar, pero seguramente en otra ocasión. Fue un gran honor, oportunidad de hablar contigo y espero que podemos hacerlo de nuevo en algún momento. Ernest: Con mucho gusto. Encantado de poder conversar contigo. Y estoy realmente seguro de que vamos a continuar caminando juntos. Muchas gracias. English Transcription Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome Ernest, to the end of tourism podcast.Ernest: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.Chris: It's a great honor to finally be able to talk to you. I wonder if, to start with, you could tell us about this, where you speak today and what the world is like there for you?Ernest: I usually live in Barcelona, between Barcelona and Mallorca, because I am between the University of the Balearic Islands and Alba Sud, and at the moment I am in Buenos Aires working on research into different management experiences, outside the logic of capitalism. And this led us to identify different experiences. And now I am starting a research with the Hotel Bauen, what was the now closed Hotel Bauen and the cooperative that managed it for 20 years,It is part of the process that we are doing, identifying [00:01:00] diverse plural experiences that have to do with how to think about the possibility of organizing tourism under other modes and this has taken us along different paths from Latin America, from Spain. And now I am here.Chris: Well, thank you Ernest. And yes, we are going to talk about this topic, but beyond the visions that exist, that we can imagine about post - capitalist tourism or something around it, something like that. But before we get into that, you and I have been in contact for the last two years, partly due to your work in the field of critical tourism studies and your Alba Sud project, in which some of our previous guests, including Ivan Murray, Robert Fletcher and Macia Blasquez, have participated.I would love for you to tell me a little bit [00:02:00] about Alba Sud, Ernest, its mission, its history and its current situation.Ernest: With pleasure. Oh, look, Alba Sud was founded in 2008. We had legalized it before in case some group of colleagues needed it one day, but it formally began to operate in 2008 and it began to operate in Managua, Nicaragua, which was where I lived at the time.And it was basically an agreement between people who were dedicated to research and communication to work with critical and at the same time propositional analysis around tourism. This was something that was original from the beginning, this double concern, about how to think about the impacts, the effects that tourism development had under capitalism and what kind of dynamics of structural and direct violence they generated and at the same time, how to think about possibilities of getting out of that [00:03:00] framework of those logics. And that was a hallmark that we started with from the beginning.Over the years, Alba Sud has grown, becoming a network of tourism researchers. We now have a presence in 10 countries in Spain, France, Europe, and then in Latin America, in the Dominican Republic, Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina.So it is a network made up of people who are dedicated to different areas of tourism analysis and who share work spaces and analysis and political intervention. For us, Alba Sud is a research centre, but it is not an academic centre and we are less concerned about academic dynamics, although there is a part of our team of people who collaborate who are at the university, different universities.What we are concerned about is how to generate [00:04:00] knowledge that is useful for communities, for community organizations, for civil associations, for unions, and for public administration when possible. That is, we try to generate knowledge, analysis, systematization, proposals that in some way contribute to making visible the things that do not work well, that are a disaster that generate pain in this world in relation to tourism and at the same time, to think of horizons of hope.This is the purpose. To do this, we have a large team of people who collaborate more closely on a day-to-day basis, others who collaborate occasionally, and we basically put together our work, which is organized around a website, www.AlbaSud.Org, and we structure it into research papers that are later published in a format [00:05:00] written in different ways, which I will then tell you about. In addition to the form of research, work is linked to training to generate dialogue processes that allow us to listen, to reflect together, putting people who come from the academy on the same level as people who have specific work experiences. And finally, a more political influence area, more of accompanying organizations and accompanying them to influence politically.In the field of research, we then express it, basically through short articles that we write, we publish around 100, 110, 120 a year, which are short articles of 2000-2500 words, which we know are widely used in universities, as discussion material.And a bit of the purpose is this, that they are boiled down as small, well-written articles, or we try to make them well [00:06:00] written, that they are in simple language, that the complexity has nothing to do with the academic swear words that we use, but the depth of t

Episode 200 BAY-BEE!   We've somehow managed to keep this thing going for a couple hundred of episodes. We're just as surprised as you are. Thank you so much for tagging along with us on this journey and letting us invade the space between your ears every couple of weeks. The fact that there are people outside of our friend group and quite literally across the world that listen to us is weird; but so, so cool.   This time we're actually implementing something useful and we'll have our discord server link right here: https://discord.gg/XXwSh8DE   Click on that so you can come hang out with some cool people. And if you ever want to drop us a question for us to read on an episode, you can ask it over at the discorner chat!   Thank you all so much again, we love all of you. But especially you ;-)   -Adam, Dustin, Chris   Thank you to Eric Skiff for the use of our intro and outro songs! If you like what you hear, you can check out more cool tunes over at https://www.ericskiff.com!

Mis entrevistados en este episodio son Anny Gabriela Ventura Puac y Jairo Chamalé Lemus. Anny es ajquij(guía espiritual), politóloga e investigadora, actual curadora en jefe de Espacio/C. Nacida en Chuwila, Chichicastenango, Quiché, Guatemala. Es mujer Maya Kiche con identidad diversa, sanadora y contadora del tiempo. Tiene estudios en Ciencias Políticas y Sociales, Relaciones Internacionales y una especialidad en ODS para Naciones Indígenas. Es confundadora de Espacio C, en dónde se ha desempeñado como gestora cultural desde 2013 y curadora en Jefe desde 2023.En Guatemala su trabajo está presente en diversos espacios sociales, políticos y culturales, como consultora independiente para organizaciones no gubernamentales, trabajando con niñas, mujeres y adolescentes mayas y no mayas a nivel nacional, en temas concretos como empoderamiento político, salud (diabetes / VIH) y sanación desde la Cosmovisión Maya.Jairo es persona disidente, del territorio Poqomam de Mixco, viajero e investigador se la religiosidad popular, las expresiones culturales y la espiritualidad de su contexto cercano. Es guía de turismo y estudiante de antropología.Notas del EpisodioAnny y Jairo y el Cristo NegroEl camino de peregrinacion entre Mixco y OaxacaQuirio Catano y las origines del cristo negroLas diversas formas de sacrificar y bailarLas colonizaciones de EquipulasEl base de cristo negro en el mundo maya/mexicaEl crisis climatico y la falta de ofrendasLas consecuencias de la perdida de hospitalidadLa memoria vivida del intercambio intercultural antiguaTarea Abisaí Navarro María Jacinta Xón / Proyecto Tux Cocina Gourmet de OrigenHoja de Pacaya - InstagramLos Cofrades Chichicastenango - Instagramespacio/C arte+memoria - InstagramTranscripcion en espanol (English Below)S6 - Anny Puac & Jairo - Peregrinacion a EsquipulasChris: [00:00:00] Bienvenida y bienvenido al podcast El Fin del Turismo Annie y Jairo. Gracias a ambos por acompañarme hoy. Me encantaría que pudieran contarles a nuestros oyentes desde dónde llaman y cómo aparece el mundo ahí para cada uno de ustedes.Anny: Muchas gracias, Chris y buenos días a quienes nos escuchen o buenas tardes o buenas noches, dependiendo su zona horaria.Mi nombre es Anny y yo le saludo desde el territorio maya K'iche' de Chuwila, K'iche' Guatemala específicamente.Jairo: Buenos días a ambos, para mi un gusto estar por acá. Sawe ta inteer winaq (Buenos días a todas y todos) mucho gusto desde el territorio pues Poqomam de Mixco y también desde las cercanías a la ciudad de Guatemala, pues gracias por esta [00:01:00] oportunidad para compartir conocimiento.Chris: Y gracias a ustedes dos. Yo estoy aquí en Oaxaca y el mundo parece obviamente un poco raro. Bueno, quizás no es obvio, pero parece más raro día por día. Estamos aquí hoy para hablar de Esquipulas en Guatemala. Y Esquipulas es el lugar de varias iglesias que han abergado al cristo negro de la ciudad, que es famosa por sus supuestos milagros durante los últimos cuatro siglos.De manera similar, la peregrinación al santuario es la más grande de América Central y la segunda más grande de las Américas, con lo que leí, 5 millones de personas que lo visitan cada año. Ahora, para empezar, ¿Estarían dispuestos a explicar que impulsó a cada uno [00:02:00] de sus intereses o relaciones con este lugar y la práctica de la peregrinación?Anny: Sí, por supuesto Chris. Pues, yo desde como mi relación, digamos personal o individual como familia, yo tengo, digamos, como clara la idea de cuando inician estas peregrinaciones, de pronto, cuando yo ya tenía unos siete u ocho años de edad, así, para decirte que yo tengo claridad, pero cuando yo retrocedo a los archivos de la familia, pues veo que el tema de peregrinar a Esquipulas, pues comienza con mis abuelas.Jairo: Entonces yo te podría decir que dentro de mi familia, la peregrinación a Esquipulas , así quizá llevará mínimamente unos 80 años presente en la familia, sobre todo del lado de [00:03:00] mi abuela materna. Que ella es de un territorio K'iche' de Quetzaltenango, en donde pues empezaban el viaje, en conjunto, allá fuera un viaje de barrio organizado por el barrio, o era un viaje familiar, entonces se iban uno o dos buses en aquel tiempo cuando no había tanto transporte, verdad? Era un lujo también irse por alguna ruta en donde hubiera paso para bus. Y pues, lo que no se pudiera transitar ya en bus, pues se hacía caminando, se hacían burros, pero, más o menos por ahí viene un poquito la historia de de cómo inician estas rutas de peregrinaje en mi familia, digamos. Con el caso de nosotros, yo no tengo conciencia de pequeño de haber, pues, llegado a Esquipulas. Bueno, hay un dato bien interesante, cuando yo cumplo 40 días de haber nacido, mi familia decide llevarme a [00:04:00] Esquipulas, eso pues está en el archivo fotográfico de la familia como agradecimiento, porque al final nací con... nací bien.Jairo: Y entonces la familia decide peregrinar es el dato más cercano que tengo de la personal de las idas a Esquipulas. Claro, esto siempre lo he tenido muy familiarizado dentro de mi contexto cercano, puesto que la gente pues de mi municipio suele ir justo organizada en excursiones de las diferentes organizaciones religiosas que hay en mi municipio.Estas, pues designan fechas y son buses llenos de aproximadamente 50 personas. Cada bus suelen llegar hasta tres, de acá de Mixco, pues que se van para para Esquipulas. Y ese es algo bien interesante porque es pues, parte de la modernidad, digámoslo ir en bus, pero hay muchas anécdotas de las personas de acá del pueblo que [00:05:00] cuentan cómo, pues iban de una forma más rústica, verdad? Que podía ser, pues en peregrinaje caminando, que no era la única peregrinación, de hecho la del cristo negro de Esquipulas. Hoy puntualmente, vamos a hablar de ella.Pero pues están también las peregrinaciones Antigua Guatemala que está aquí cerquita, aquí detrás de nosotros hay un cerro que es el cerro Alux. Este cerro se cruzaba, pues caminando, todavía lo hace la gente caminando porque detrás del cerro está, pues la bajada para llegar a la Antigua Guatemala.Chris: Gracias. Gracias a ustedes. Pues así, por conocer un poco más de sus historias, como de peregrinación, me gustaría saber un poco más si se podrían ofrecer algo de la larga historia de Esquipulas, del cristo negro y pues, ¿Cómo se originó la la peregrinación? ¿De donde viene esa historia?.Jairo: Bueno, como lo mencioné antes, diciendo algunas [00:06:00] palabras en el idioma poqomam. Es el idioma que se hablaba, pues en nuestro pueblo. Lo voy a decir nuevamente más despacio para, pues, describirles que es lo que dije, técnicamente es:Sawe' ta inteer winaq, kiroo wilkee' chipam ma' q 'oriik taqee, reh ma' ojeer winaq reh qatinimiit Mixko' buenos días a todos. Qué gusto pues poder compartir estas palabras y también un poco de la historia de la gente antigua de nuestro pueblo. Porque pues, la verdad es que el peregrinaje a Esquipulas está muy relacionado e intrínseco con la gente de Mixco y justamente también con el territorio oaxaqueño. Mi nombre, pues es Jairo, Jairo Andrés Chamale Lemus. Yo pues pertenezco a este territorio, a la gente maya poqomam. De acá es la mitad de mi familia de mis antepasados. Y , pues me dedico al turismo. Yo soy guía [00:07:00] de turistas de hace aproximadamente ocho años ya desde que me gradué muy joven. Y, pues me he dedicado justo a peregrinar para que las personas conozcan también el contexto histórico de Guatemala y de las diferentes expresiones culturales, religiosas y también de resistencia de la gente en el territorio de lo que ahora conocemos como Guatemala.Pues también, soy estudiante de la carrera de antropología, de la licenciatura específicamente en antropología, y pues me he dedicado también a estudiar el caso del idioma maya poqomam en Mixco, que es una comunidad muy cercana a la ciudad de Guatemala, que hemos tenido pues un impacto, demográfico y social, pues bastante fuerte, pues debido al crecimiento del área metropolitana de la ciudad de Guatemala. Es algo a lo que me he dedicado a estudiar durante los últimos años. Y también, pues, a [00:08:00] documentarlo, porque tenemos muchas prácticas culturales y espirituales en nuestro pueblo, que han ido desapareciendo conforme este avance demográfico de la ciudad, muchísimas gracias. Rontyoox aq'oo taAnny: Bueno Chris. En realidad hay un registro, digamos histórico, donde dice que el primer peregrinaje que se inicia a Esquipulas, fue en Marzo 1595, cuando la imagen sale del taller de este señor escultor Quirio Cataño, que sale hacia Esquipulas, hacia Chiquimula. Esto está al oriente de Guatemala. Nosotros lo conocemos como la zona caliente de de Guatemala. Pero es la zona, digamos, como caliente árida. Es un territorio en donde hay comunidad Xinca, Popti', si no estoy mal Chortí también. Y pues, la producción que se [00:09:00] tiene por las tierras de por allá, estamos hablando de frutas de algunas plantas, de algunos tubérculos más o menos, pero más que todos se dedican a la fruta, verdad.Esta primera peregrinación la documenta y la registra el cronista, que se llama Miguel Álvarez. Y él dice que, cuando cuando salióó del taller y se dirigió hacia Esquipulas la imagen iba haciendo diferentes milagros en todo el recorrido hasta llegar a la basílica. Entonces habían personas que le pedían justamente que, que por favor que la imagen pasara por lo menos una noche dentro de la casa de las personas para, bendecirlo. Y Y más o menos se calcula cada año, digamos en la actualidad, ahora en Guatemala y en alrededor de 300 mil personas de todo el mundo, más que todo entre México, Centroamérica, países del sur, por ejemplo de Perú [00:10:00] de Ecuador de Ecuador, Bolivia, si no estoy mal, es como mucha la cantidad de gente que llega, más o menos entre noviembre, que ahorita es como una fecha de noviembre y diciembre y todo enero, digamos, esas son como los tres meses de muchísima más afluencia de personas que llegan llegan a la basílica, verdad? Entonces se le puede llamar romerías, se le puede llamar una peregrinacion que peregrinación, usualmente, pues ahí si que las personas que visitan puede ser que hagan así como un día de visita nada más o puede ser que pueda prolongarse una visita hasta por 10, 15 días, verdad?De la ciudad de Guatemala, hasta Esquipulas hay una distancia más o menos como entre unos 220 a 250 kilómetros y se recorre, si vas como en romería, pasando por lugares como muy puntuales de toda la peregrinación, en promedio [00:11:00] cada día tú vas haciendo un tramo de 40 kilómetros, al día, digamos si tu intención es ir en peregrinaje así. Entonces eso es más o menos como más datos históricos y el relato, verdad?Chris: Y estoy un poco curioso, dentro de las estancias, al llegar a Esquipulas, si yo fuera peregrinando, por ejemplo, ¿ Qué haría? ¿Se van parando para hacer sus rezos? Me gustaría saber por alguien que nunca ha hecho una peregrinación, como aparecía esos días antes de venir.Anny: Bueno, yo te voy a contar un poquito el relato de de mi familia porque mi abuela materna, ella sí era una señora, pues muy católica, no? Entonces, pues ella, su peregrinaje, digamos para ella, era su sacrificio, verdad? En el año, decir bueno, por agradecimiento [00:12:00] a mi salud, a los milagros que me concedió, porque era como muy devota. Era el hecho de salir en ruta de peregrinaje. ¿Qué implicaba esto? Inclusive, preparar comida para no digamos como perder el tiempo, tú pensando en qué comer durante el camino, porque la idea para ellos y para ellas era, pues, ir en como en recogimiento, en rezo constante, en oración, digamos en petición, ir como parando cada cierto tiempo, verdad? Cada 40 kilómetros, porque que ya dentro de la comunidad, católica-cristiana, hay puntos que están como marcados dentro de la ruta en donde tú puedes ir parando con cada familia, porque puede ser que tengan una réplica de la imagen del cristo negro, porque de hecho, cuando fue la primera peregrinación, puede ser que esta familia haya sido una de las [00:13:00] familias que recibió por primera vez el cristo negro.Entonces se convierte como en ese punto de de parada, verdad? Entonces, cuando hacen ese punto de parada, pues ya bajan. Bajan a hacer oración, bajan a platicar y a convivir con las personas de pronto, a compartir un alimento. Ya sentir, pues, así que también como su fé, su devoción, pero al mismo tiempo su convivencia, su alegría en este, en este tramo de compartir no?.Entonces eso digamos, es lo que usualmente, pues se ve. Yo también he visto otras personas que, por ejemplo, ya cuando quedan unos, son los últimos 20 kilómetros de recorrido por ejemplo, descienden de sus vehículos y caminan de rodillas esos 20 kilómetros hasta llegar a la basílica. Entonces, pues, los ves, ya puede ser que sea solo el papá con con el hijo, o el papá y la mamá, o pues la diversidad de personas que puedan llegar, que van y que pues hacen su penitencia, y [00:14:00] entregan digamos, pues su sacrificio de esta forma. Así como hay personas que puede ser que, que durante toda su ruta de peregrinaje, hay un ejemplo de unos, de unas personas cercanas a nosotros que tienen un conjunto de marimba, de música, y pues lo que hacen es que van con un vehículo y van ejecutando música todo el trayecto hasta llegar a Esquipulas, y ya cuando llegan a la basílica, bajan con sus instrumentos y se dedican a cantar ya sea una canción, un tiempo, verdad?Ahí, entonces, pues yo creo que depende, varía mucho de lo que te puedas tú dedicar o el agradecimiento que tú quieras pues dar, o a lo que, pues, lo que tu corazón salga, no? En mi caso como muy puntual, pues nosotros hacemos el recorrido completo los 220 kilómetros en vehículo hasta llegar a Esquipulas. Y luego, pues ahí ya, o sea, nos establecemos [00:15:00] y como nuestras dinámicas son un tanto como diferentes porque yo no soy católica. Yo soy de la cosmovisión maya, y pues ahí he crecido buena parte de mi vida. Mi concepción como de ver esta ruta de peregrinaje es diferente, porque si bien es cierto el que el cristo negro, pues es una figura de un cristo crucificado cristiano, Jesús, nosotros aprendimos a ver cómo la historia del pueblo Poptí y Chorti y Chortí, en cuanto a que esta ruta de peregrinaje es bien interesante, porque durante toda tu ruta más, más o menos, me atrevería a decir que tal vez un 70 de la ruta, tú vas encontrando montañas de obsidiana, entonces es una ruta que en sí es una ruta de sanación y para nosotros, digamos dentro de la cosmovisión maya está muy relacionada con el Nahual Tijax, que es la obsidiana y para [00:16:00] quizá buena parte de Oaxaca o de su Istmo o de la cultura Náhuatl, por ejemplo, está relacionado con Tezcatlipoca que era justamente esta veneración de esta mujer que decían que era brillante y color de cobrizo y de nigriso verdad? Y por tanto, Y pues tú sabes que ambas piedras o estos relatos que nos cuentan, pues es justamente sanación y de ahí que nosotros creemos que por eso el cristo negro es tan milagroso cuando se trata de temas de salud.Jairo: Desde nuestro lado, por así decirlo, forma parte ya de un peregrinaje que no solamente se hace el 15 de enero. Claro, el 15 de enero es el día establecido para hacer el peregrinaje de cristo negro de Esquipulas. Pero pues, muchos de los grupos que les comentaba que son bastante diversos acá en Mixco, grupos religiosos principalmente católicos, o pues sincretizados de [00:17:00] alguna forma, establecen también estas visitas como parte de su organización dentro del grupo de personas que inciden.Y entonces si, justamente dentro del bus, también se suele, pues, ir rezando el rosario, que es esta práctica de ir rezando las novenas con un orden establecido con cantos y la gente, pues suele ir desde que salen de ciudad de Guatemala o desde que salen de acá desde Mixco, que hay que cruzar la ciudad y luego la ruta hacia el oriente de Guatemala, la gente va haciendo estas oraciones cada cierto tiempo, pero depende mucho del grupo y de qué tan católico sea de alguna forma, porque hay grupos que solamente lo hacen como una excursión claro. El fin principal es de la visita, pues a la basílica del cristo negro y la veneración de cristo negro como tal.Y, pues solamente llegan en en el bus hasta la basílica y algo que caracteriza mucho a la cultura de [00:18:00] Mixco, es el, la quema de pólvora. A nosotros nos fascina la pólvora y cuando llegamos a Esquipulas justamente esa es la premisa, no? Llegar a quemar bombas de sonido, de sonido estridente en aviso que la gente de Mixco ya llegó.Y también fuegos pirotécnicos de colores. Es bien curioso porque depende mucho del grupo y a lo que el grupo, pues aunque sea católico o sincretizado con lo maya, a lo que este grupo religiosamente se dedique, encaminado a eso va la actividad que se va a realizar allá.Tengo conocimiento de un grupo que, de hecho, ya se documentó a gracias al CECEG, al Centro de Estudios Culturales de la Universidad de San Carlos, de Guatemala, es el grupo El Baile de Moros de los Seis Toritos, que es básicamente un grupo de danza tradicional que nace en la aldea Lo De Bran que está acá en Mixco siempre dentro [00:19:00] del área metropolitana y ellos, pues se dedican a bailar El Torito. El Torito es básicamente la representación de una danza que se hace en alusión a dueños de una finca y el trato hacia los animales. Entonces los animales tienen una especie de de revelación contra este dueño de la finca, una historia bien, sutilmente contada desde lo maya también. Y entonces van a hacer esta representación de la danza a Esquipulas. Esto lo hacen justamente para la fiesta del cristo negro. Bailan todo el día, durante tres días seguidos frente al atrio de la iglesia de Esquipulas, mientras millones de personas visitan la basílica de cristo negro y en ese momento ellos están bailando ahí.Chris: Qué fascinante. Me encanta ese sentido, esa onda que, que hay tanta diversidad, en la forma, los caminos, las celebraciones que se niegue un poco [00:20:00] ese sentido occidental que es como de siempre asumir o buscar una sola respuesta, una sola historia, una sola manera, de actuar, de entender.Y así fue sorprendiente para mí por leer, por investigar las historias de Esquipulas y de las peregrinaciones porque encontré muchas historias diversas. Entonces voy a leer un poquito de lo que encontré y me gustaría escuchar de ustedes, si se podrían comentar un poco de si hay sentidos de "eso es como puro chisme o es un rumor" o si hay capas y capas dentro de las historias de Esquipulas y las peregrinaciones.Entonces, pues la primera va que "en la ciudad sagrada de Copán se celebraban grandes fiestas en honor [00:21:00] a dios maya Ek-Kampulá que significa: 'el que empuja las nubes', pues se le atribuía el poder de alejar las lluvias y permitir los días del sol necesarios para preparar la siembra.Ek-Kampulá que era de color negro, estaba rodeado con una antorcha en la mano izquierda. Su figura se puede apreciar en las graduadas de uno de los templos de Copán." Ahora, el segundo."Algunos relatos dicen que la figura del cristo negro fue ordenada por los conquistadores españoles en Guatemala en ese momento para facilitar la conversión de los pueblos locales al cristianismo."Ahora, el próximo. "Las leyendas piadosas afirman que la imagen se oscureció debido a los misioneros españoles que deseaban convertir a los [00:22:00] nativos que adoraban a la deidad nebulosa pagana Ek-Kampulá en el área que también era representada como una figura oscura." Entonces, supongo que mi pregunta es como, ¿Cuántas de estas historias han escuchado Y ¿Cuáles historias son las meras meras verdaderas según ustedes? O si hay capas y capas y capas de historias en qué todas merecen su lugar.Jairo: Yo creería que, Copán tiene un papel bien importante dentro de lo que estamos hablando. Ahora es un sitio arqueológico del área residencial o el castillo, por así decirlo, y los templos de la gente maya de ese tiempo, recordemos que es el clásico. Y pues esta ciudad fue colonizada por otra ciudad que se llama Quiriguá, que está siempre en las riberas del Río Motagua, un río muy [00:23:00] importante que comunica toda la parte de las montañas de Guatemala con el Caribe. Y en Copán si hay muchas expresiones espirituales. Seguro, Anny nos va a ampliar un poco más de esto. Pero lo que yo he visto son muchas expresiones, rituales espirituales y también, un centro de peregrinaje como tal ya fungía Copán. O sea, ya era una capital política, religiosa y cultural muy importante que está muy cerca de Esquipulas. Es increíblemente como un sitio maya tan importante del clásico está tan cerca a una ciudad, que es tan importante para todo el área mesoamericana. Es decir, desde México hasta Costa Rica, conocen al cristo negro de Esquipulas. Y pues también algo que a mi me llama la atención relacionado a lo que acabas de decir es como, Esquipulas, pues si es un referente para la gente pues católica, la gente católica que no es maya va [00:24:00] también a Esquipulas como una forma de peregrinaje, pero, a mi me llama mucho la atención, la práctica también de la espiritualidad maya y otras espiritualidades que se llevan a cabo en Esquipulas, no?quizás no es tan directamente relacionado con la figura que acabas de mencionar, que yo he escuchado como Ek-Chuah, sino que es esta figura de la piedra de los compadres, que es una leyenda, no? Una leyenda de adulterio, por así decirlo, en el cual hay dos piedras que están pegadas en alusión a dos amigos que llegan al peregrinaje de cristo negro de Esquipulas y en un acto sexual, estos compadres se quedan pegados como castigo por haber cometido el adulterio. Esa es la leyenda. Y en esa piedra, pues se practica la espiritualidad maya, es decir a pocos ni siquiera un kilómetro de la de la basílica del cristo negro de Esquipulas, puedes ver esta piedra donde la gente coloca, [00:25:00] pues, sus candelas, su incienso y hay altares dedicados completamente a la espiritualidad maya dentro del mismo pueblo.Entonces esto va un poco aunado a lo que nos decía Anny no? Como la figura de cristo negro, también es muy representativa y es la reminiscencia de algo que se practicó muy fuertemente durante la época prehispánica.Yo no descartaría del todo, pues el valor de Ek-Chuah dentro de estas prácticas espirituales y que sí, definitivamente los españoles, trataron de tomar elementos de la de la espiritualidad maya que ya eran importantes para imponer la religión católica. Pero la gente maya, yo siempre lo digo, fue muy estratega y lo es hasta la fecha para continuar resistiendo, practicando, pues la espiritualidad tamizado con elementos católicos y con este significado profundo.Anny: Sí, yo también voy a coincidir un poquito en el [00:26:00] tema de no descartaría la relación que se tiene con Ek-Chuah, porque está asociado con la deidad Chortí. El otro punto que tú hablabas del tema, un tanto político, sí hay algunos historiadores, políticos que justamente, enuncian este uso de figuras que está asociada con el trabajo y sobretodo, digamos a la carga y explotación laboral de los campesinos, y cómo también estas zonas fueron como fuertemente impactadas durante el tiempo de la colonia. Entonces eso, yo tampoco lo, lo descartaría y tampoco diría que es un mito. Por ejemplo, yo, sé que la antigua población de Esquipulas, fue una de las ciudades en este punto incendiadas por los españoles durante la invasión aquí a Guatemala el 1525 verdad?[00:27:00] En el centro de la plaza de Esquipulas, según cómo lo relatan, decía que habían, cuatro árboles de de pochotl que es la ceiba, que la ceiba pues ahí si que para nosotros es un árbol sagrado, verdad? Porque bajo sus sombras, siempre se han realizado ceremonias vinculadas con prácticas agrícolas, que duraban desde el solsticio de invierno hasta el equinoccio de primavera.Entonces se iniciaban más o menos también en esta zona por el 21 de diciembre, pero tenían ritualidades más unciosas, por ejemplo, como el 15 de enero. Y de ahí que parte que una de las fechas propicias para visitar Esquipulas sea 15 de enero. Entonces, las otras fechas de celebración que iban entre el equinoccio y el solsticio.Del 15 de enero al 25 de febrero, más o menos 40 días. Porque en 40 días estábamos viendo que se operaba el paso del sol por el cenit en la otra banda del [00:28:00] trópico, en un punto en donde estaba hasta cierto punto equidistante del círculo máximo de la tierra, donde según la posición del sol, se tomaba la medida del tiempo en que se produciría el fenómeno de la tierra que ya fuera el fenómeno del niño o de la niña, como se le nombra, verdad?Exactamente, se hacía esto dentro de los días comprendidos del 20 al 31 de enero, que es cuando se operan como los fenómenos en los hemisferios, y de ahí es como de donde viene esta creencia de las cabañuelas, de cuando muy va iniciando el año más o menos por ahí, entonces hay como una relación también ciclo-agrícola y por eso es que a mí no se me hace como un mito el hecho que está asociado con Ek-Chuah porque Ek-Chuah de hecho está asociado con en este, no me gusta llamarlo Dios, pero con la energía del trabajo, verdad? Porque me parece que esa es como la expresión correcta. En cuanto a lo del señor de Esquipulas, la [00:29:00] relación de las ceremonias con la natividad de cristo, digamos, así como el establecimiento de la festividad del señor de Esquipulas el 15 de enero, pues si siguen teniendo continuidad con las formas religiosas prehispánicas en el área maya guatemalteca, los antiguos habitantes de Esquipulas, si hay un relato, de Castañeda que lo mencionan en lo en el 55 que se dice que , "adoraban a un Dios que era el protector de las siembras de la cosecha y del trabajo."Esto lo dice, este historiador "que seguramente él dice no pertenecía a las deidades mesoamericanas, especialmente al panteón mexica, universado en momentos previos a la llegada de los españoles. La representación antropomorfa de las deidades no era desconocida en Mesoamérica, por el contrario, era abundante y generalizada desde Sinaloa hasta Honduras. [00:30:00] Además, 'del Dios principal,' el comenta fray Diego Durán, 'él hace como una alusión, con Tezcatlipoca, que él dice era una piedra muy relumbrante y negra como azabache obsidiano. Piedra de la que ellos hacen navajas y cuchillos para cortar.' Además, ciudades era de palo entallada en una figura de un hombre todo negro de las sienes para abajo con la frente, narices y boca blanca, de color de indio bestia" dice él, "de algunos atavíos galanos a su indiano modo a lo primero que tenía era unos ojeras de oro y otras de plata. En el labio bajo tenía un bezote de laverde cristalino en el que está metida una pluma verde y otras veces es azul, que después de afuera parece esmeralda o rubí. Era este bezote como un geme de largo encima de coleta de caballos que tenían la cabeza. Entonces, lo que se puede apreciar en esta descripción [00:31:00] de Tezcatlipoca corresponde casi literalmente a lo que se pudo percibir como la primera figura del cristo negro, especialmente en la representación de las imágenes talladas en madera que se veneraban en las ciudades periféricas del imperio mexica. La diferencia en el atuendo de ambas deidades radican las connotaciones religiosas de cada una de las culturas, materias, simbologías, espirituales y atributos, pero en esencial es parecido e indescutible indiscutible.Recordemos que la celebración principal, digamos de la obsidiana de Tezcatlipoca y de lo que tú mencionabas relacionado con el tema de las lluvias, pues era justamente esto, la petición para que lloviera, sobre todo por ser tierras en este punto, muy áridas, muy secas . Y bueno, yo me quedo por aquí.Chris: Bueno, muchas gracias Anny y Jairo, para explicar un poco de eso. Entonces, [00:32:00] así, me gustaría preguntar cómo dar los cambios en los objetos de los mayas a los cristianos y la naturaleza de la peregrinación, hacia el turismo. Es una pregunta rara, pero, ¿Ustedes creen que los viejos alimentos, o energías, o antepasados todavía se alimentan?Es decir, para vivir en un lugar ya una década que tiene una sequía, que también saqueo, que va empeorando y empeorando, poco a poco me voy pensando si hay una falta de rezos de conocimiento, de recuerdo, de memoria, de ofrendas. Anny: Bueno, yo es en realidad esta sequía saqueo, esta crisis climática y toda la crisis alrededor de la tierra, a mí, en lo [00:33:00] personal y tanto en lo comunitario, a mí me parece que es una crisis a nivel comunitaria, nacional, mundial en donde todos los territorios, se han visto afectados. Por ejemplo, así como aquí en Guatemala, que tenemos zonas como muy áridas, muy secas, que por su propia condición geográfica en donde han estado, sin duda se ha intensificado en estos últimos años, derivado del saqueo del recurso natural, sobre todo en estas zonas del oriente de Guatemala que son montañas que están, pues ahí si que dedicadas a la explotación de material para la construcción. Hablemos de piedra, hablemos de arena, hablemos de cal, por ejemplo, y de otros elementos que son para la explotación minera. Así como hay otros aquí en Guatemala, donde pues la zona es bastante húmeda, pero sus montañas son [00:34:00] propicias para el oro, para la plata, para el cobre, para el zinc y para otros elementos. Entonces, yo si siento que aparte de que falte de repente un toj, un pagamento, o un Xukulem, como nosotros decimos, dar la gratitud a la tierra que sin duda, pues es evidente cuando, y eso es evidencia no solo en la explotación de la tierra, sino que es evidencia en el sentir de las personas, porque usualmente, se piensa que un peregrinaje únicamente es ir a ver una figura, verdad? O una persona, una deidad, un cristo, ir a esa energía y sentir la energía para yo recargarme, sin considerar que yo al momento que también me voy a recargar de esa energía, estoy siendo un tanto extractivista muchas veces con mi práctica. Pero mi práctica también va más allá de enajenarme de qué está pasando, porque si bien es cierto, tengo ahí al cristo negro frente a mí y soy muy devota, pero entender que el cristo negro también puede estar [00:35:00] presente en las montañas, en los ríos, en los valles, en los lagos, en las cuencas y en todo eso que a mí me da de comer, en todo eso que a mí me permite vivir. Entonces, yo creo que más allá de que falta un rezo, yo sí creo que falta mucha conciencia, mucho trabajo espiritual de hacerle ver a las personas, a los peregrinos, a las peregrinas que mi ruta de peregrinaje, o sea, por donde yo paso, existe porque hay un territorio, un territorio que es ajeno a mi territorio, pero que aun así yo paso porque voy a ver algo en específico, pero que eso también tiene un impacto y que eso también tiene una responsabilidad. Preocuparme por todo lo común que pasa alrededor de de mi territorio, de mi país, del mundo, por ejemplo. Entonces, Mas allá de yo decirte si mira, Chris, falta que la gente reze, falta que la gente ofrende para que ya no haya sequía, que si bien es cierto, tiene una parte súper importante, es muy espiritual y que nosotros que [00:36:00] hemos visto que es verdad. O sea, no es un mito, no es una mentira, sino que es verdad, pero tiene que ir de la mano la ritualidad con mi práctica, tiene que ir de la mano mi discurso con lo que yo estoy haciendo y con los enunciados y los postulados que yo tengo en mi compromiso con la tierra, verdad? Osea, para mí ese es como, como el punto focal, verdad?Jairo: Sí, Chris y Anny pues, también he de añadir que, mucho de la modernidad y la facilidad para poder llegar a establecer una ruta de peregrinaje, también, pues influye dentro de las prácticas sociales y culturales, y pues si de tal vez, una ofrenda o un rezo, también estoy de acuerdo con Anny en ese sentido, es la conciencia de las personas, no? Y no se trata en el caso de la gente, pues católica de ser anticuados y de decir, bueno, vamos a irnos callados todo el [00:37:00] camino, aunque eso es una práctica que hacía la gente antes, verdad? Lo nombro como la gente antigua de Mixco lo dice. Ya no se tiene el respeto, dice la gente, por llegar y ir en una ruta de oración y de pedir o de agradecer. Y pues, por tanto, llevar una actitud de respeto, sino que ya se toma como un viaje de excursión y puede llegar a pasar, cualquier cosa dentro de ese viaje a excepción que se visita a la basílica y se visita a cristo negro. Pero dentro de ese viaje también de muchas personas ya no toman en cuenta el significado, o siquiera la ruta en la que están atravesando, verdad?Creo que es parte de la influencia occidental, de alguna forma de los medios también, que no han difundido pues, esta historia, porque esto que estamos hablando no te lo cuentan en los medios de comunicación. Ni siquiera dentro de la iglesia católica. La iglesia católica te dice que está cristo negro de Esquipulas, que es un día reconocido [00:38:00] dentro de la espiritualidad, por así decirlo, guatemalteca, religiosidad popular, como querramos llamarlo, pero no te hacen este trasfondo histórico que hay dentro de él, verdad?Pues la iglesia católica se encarga de lo litúrgico si vamos a llamarlo de esa forma, se hace una misa, se participa dentro de las misas. Pues hay frailes franciscanos que están constantemente bendiciendo lo que se compra como souvenir dentro del lugar. Pero que más que una oración que haga falta, creo que si hace falta entender un poco más que es lo que estamos haciendo, pero pues es parte del cambio socio cultural influido, como digo por lo occidental de alguna forma, que está permeando pues esta memoria histórica en cuanto a la visita del cristo negro. No digo que deje de ser fuerte porque esto tiene muchísima fuerza todavía dentro del contexto mesoamericano.Chris: Claro, claro, [00:39:00] gracias a ustedes dos. Pues la mayoría de las pláticas en el podcast, son críticas, de lo que falta, lo que no hay, en en el mundo, en la cuestión del movimiento de viaje de devoción también, y agradecimiento.Bueno es obvio como las dinámicas transaccionales o capitalistas, etc afectan los movimientos de la gente. Cómo se proceden, como llegan, como piensen en sus movimientos, también queremos pensar en otros mundos, y parte de eso, tiene que ver con lo que algunos llaman la hospitalidad radical. Es decir, como lo más básico, según yo, la hospitalidad local, enraizado, para el extraño o extranjero o extranjera, etc. Entonces, tengo curiosidad por saber ¿Qué tipo de hospitalidad [00:40:00] radical ustedes han encontrado en Esquipulas o en la peregrinación, si es que han encontrado algo.Anny: Bueno, no te voy a hablar como mucho de esto, porque no tengo como una experiencia, porque no ha sido mi búsqueda también, como encontrar esto. Siento que es como un paso como más personal individual, quizá de de soledad, pero de de sentirte bien en el, así que solo, en el buen sentido.Te puedo decir que hay gente que tiene como muchas experiencias, verdad? De de encontrarse con las personas que abren las puertas de su casa para que estén, para que visiten, para que entren. Claro, ahorita pues mucha situación ha cambiado. Siento que la seguridad ya no es la misma. La situación que atraviesa Guatemala. La conflictividad que se ha ido acrecentando en estos últimos años con estas [00:41:00] miradas fascistas también, con la división entre iglesias, por ejemplo, entre protestantes fascistas, radicales, y protestantes neopentecostales. Y todavía medio que la iglesia evangélica presbiteriana, que es la que intenta mediar entre ambas y la iglesia católica. Todo esto, además que el oriente de Guatemala está catalogado como zonas de bastante menudeo de narco, corredores de narcotráfico también. Entonces, todas estas situaciones políticas y geopolíticas han ido modificando mucho el hecho de que tú busques tu propia protección y que la gente también, cuando no son épocas de de peregrinaje, no tiendan a abrir sus casas, sino que quizás las abren más como para cuando hay un poquito más de afluencia, pero ya es como muy poco ver este tipo de dinámicas. Lo otro es que mucha gente mayor, digamos de la zona ya ha [00:42:00] fallecido. Y pues ha quedado como gente joven, inclusive gente que no es ya de Esquipulas, sino que por tema laboral ha migrado ahí, entonces ya va perdiendo como un sentido de pertenencia, verdad? De como ese sentido de comunidad. Pero si algo yo puedo rescatar de hace como mucho tiempo y que nos queda de repente el bonito recuerdo y la historia que quizá Jairo quiere hablar ahí un poquito, es de cómo se fueron tejiendo ciertas rutas comerciales entre por ejemplo, Oaxaca, Mixco y la gente de que aprovechaba para ir a Esquipulas. Y también como pensar cómo fueron cambiando también los productos de consumo, porque ahora, pues, vemos una invasión de productos plásticos, verdad? Provenientes de China, de estas grandes pirámides de estafa que y de explotación de mano de obra en Malasia, que te viene producto chino también de por allá o de la india, por ejemplo. Vemos como la entrada de mucho de este, [00:43:00] de este producto, verdad?Entonces tampoco es que podamos estar hablando como de esta comunidad, o de encontrar como redes de comunidad en cuanto a la economía o en cuanto a la producción, porque es ahí si que tú sabes que el capitalismo es voraz y la globalización y todos estos factores que están pasando en este momento son muy crueles con las dinámicas y las formas de vida de acuerparnos, de querernos, de apapacharnos y que se intensifica cada vez más.Creo que ahí si que lo importante es, nombrarlo para que si alguien quizá no se había dado cuenta de cómo se han ido afectando las dinámicas. Pues ahora lo, se se pueda ver, verdad? Y que a veces también es un poco como egoísta de mi parte, porque ves ahí vamos al hecho de que, como yo solo lo voy una vez allá, pues no me importa al final, como si tejo o no tejo, verdad? Puede ser que sea el pensamiento de alguien, verdad? Bueno, yo [00:44:00] solo voy una vez, yo voy a lo que voy y no me importa pues si hay alguien ahí que me pueda acuerpar, recibir o lo que sea.Entonces también como estas dinámicas, estos pensamientos frívolos que también por la misma dinámica de la vida, de la economía y demás, se intensifican no? Entonces, pues yo pues yo, eso te podría decir.Jairo: Si, dentro de como el capitalismo, el sistema capitalista, ha influido también dentro de estas dinámicas. Yo puedo nombrar puntualmente durante las últimas veces que he ido a Esquipulas, justo desde acá de Mixco, como pues lo económico ha afectado, o sea, el nivel socioeconómico también determina lo que vas a llegar a hacer verdad? Porque muchas personas de que vienen de acá, ni siquiera pues ya piensan en hospedarse, sino que van en la noche, madrugada de un día, y se quedan en [00:45:00] el bus o solo van y peregrinan, rezan, dejan sus candelas, no se paga hotel y regresan, verdad? Eso ha sido en un par de ocasiones. Si bien, pues hay ahora opciones de hospedaje digámoslo de diferentes tipos, que se suelen reservar con anticipación. También está esta otra situación, que también deja un poco de lado a lo que se solía hacer de preparar comida, de llevar ya huevos duros, como le decimos nosotros, huevos cocidos con salsa de tomate, eso es muy de viajar en este contexto de Mixco, los tamales de viaje que les llamaban también que es básicamente pasta de maíz cocida con la tusa, que es la cáscara del maíz. Estos tamales, pues servían para eso, para poder mermar el hambre mientras se llegaba a Esquipulas y que ahora esto ha sido poco a poco reemplazado justo lo que nombraba Anny, por productos pre-elaborados, frituras, que no tienen ningún [00:46:00] sustento, ni siquiera enlazan, con la memoria de la cocina, sino que técnicamente es algo que se desecha. Y claro, la basura, también otro papel importante, porque tenemos poca educación o ninguna en cuanto al ambiente y las empresas que nos hacen responsables de sus paquetes, de sus sobrecitos, de sus botellas y todo esto, resulta en los caminos y, pues sí, es una ruta de peregrinaje, pero también hay basura plástica, verdad? Dentro de esa ruta de peregrinaje. Y, pues, nombrar también, este era un poquito la cereza del del pastel que yo quería dejar para esta conversación, porque, como las dinámicas económicas han afectado rutas comerciales y de peregrinaje que puede que lleven alrededor de 2 mil años de existir, verdad? Tu que te desenvuelves en Oaxaca, puedes preguntar sobre cristo negro de Esquipulas y vas a encontrar a mucha gente que es devota al cristo negro de Esquipulas [00:47:00] y que probablemente tengan una réplica, pues en varios lugares de Oaxaca. Sobre todo el área, pues de el Istmo, verdad? En el, en el área también, zapoteca, vas a encontrar mucha gente que es devota y producto, pues de ello eso, ya lo tenemos, pues registrado antropológicamente. Ya no se da, pero gracias a las abuelas de mi pueblo esto sobrevive y es como nosotros, como Mixco estamos en medio de una ruta comercial entre básicamente, el centro de México y el oriente de Guatemala que está hacia allá. Entonces, pues Esquipulas está casi, en un punto distinto a esta ruta, verdad?Pues hay una memoria de de cómo nuestra gente antigua de Mixco interactuaba comercialmente con gente que venía del centro de México. Y esto lo tenemos evidente en el uso de la indumentaria maya del Poqomam de Mixco, que tiene muchísima influencia de la indumentaria que viene del pueblo [00:48:00] zapoteca, y del pueblo mixteca, en Oaxaca y producto de ello, sé que en el audio no saldrá, pero lo voy a describir. Tenemos acá estas fajas, estas fajas vienen de santo Tomás Jalieza en Oaxaca. Las famosas fajas de Jalieza, que se utilizan en Oaxaca y que formaban parte de la indumentaria antigua de Mixco. Esto cambió más o menos a mediados de los años 60s.Hay memoria, yo escuché de boca de muchas de las señoras antiguas de acá de mi pueblo que decían, venían las mexicanas a vendernos ropa, técnicamente, pero no es la ruta de Tapachula moderna, ahora que se va por la costa, sino que se refieren a textiles. Y esto encontramos fotos, inclusive fotografías del siglo 19, de finales del siglo 19, principios del siglo 20 en el que vemos el uso de estas fajas, y las reconocemos técnicamente por esta figura que seguro, pues ya la, la verás más representada en en Oaxaca. [00:49:00] La gente acá en Mixco le dice a esto los bailadores, en Oaxaca les tienen un nombre, ahora específicamente, no lo recuerdo, pero es gracias a este danzante o bailador que reconocemos las fajas que vienen de ese lugar porque en Guatemala no encuentras ninguna otra faja que sea de este material, porque es lana, o bien puede ser bastante grueso el tejido en telar de cintura con estos diseños.Entonces, gracias a Abisaí Navarro, que ojalá pueda escuchar este material, es un amigo que es de Oaxaca, quien conocí por las redes sociales, en quien básicamente se ha dedicado a documentar las expresiones culturales también de Oaxaca y de la espiritualidad en los pueblos mixteca y zapoteca. Y él me envió estas fajas desde Oaxaca. Osea, yo ya no puedo decir las compré con señoras oaxaqueñas. Yo como mixqueño, no las compré con ellas porque ahora vienen en bus, la dinámica comercial cambió y además en Mixco ya no se usa la [00:50:00] indumentaria maya, de uso diario. Este es por un lado, y por el otro lado, también tenemos a este otro lugar que se llama Yalalag, que es gente zapoteca también, en el cual usan esta prenda sobre la cabeza, ellos le llaman tlacoyales o rodetes, que consiste pues en lana cruda, de de oveja teñida, colocado sobre la cabeza, que es la emulación, pues a una serpiente. Esto, pues, tampoco esto no lo traje de Oaxaca, esto lo conseguí pues gracias a una historiadora justamente de Chichicastenango que Anny conoce, María Jacinta Xón, ella pues su papá se dedicó muchísimo tiempo, y ella también se ha dedicado, pues a la elaboración de hilos y a la obtención de la seda, y el papá de ella que ya descansa, pues fue con quien pudimos investigar un poco de dónde venía esta lana. Esta lana ya no se produce ni siquiera en Chichicastenango, en el contexto de Anny, sino [00:51:00] que básicamente esta es la última que él tuvo la oportunidad de teñir, pero es exactamente la misma lana que inclusive él desconocía su procedencia sin pintar, de dónde venía.Y ahora esto ni siquiera aquí en Guatemala se consigue, entonces es la evidencia de cómo Mixco en medio de una ruta comercial entre básicamente todo el área de el Istmo y la costa sur hacia el oriente de Guatemala, que es otro mundo que, de no haber llegado la invasión española y de no haber este sistema que de alguna forma ha ladinizado decimos nosotros, o sea despojado de su identidad a la gente maya. Y, pues, tendríamos una gran diversidad también de personas en aquel territorio. Y pues es un poco de las dos prendas que acá en Mixco se utilizan todavía por las mujeres que participan en las cofradías, pero los nos hace pensar en las mujeres de Oaxaca también. Es bien curioso. Tengo un video que lo describe, si gustan lo pueden ver allá en mis redes sociales, [00:52:00] aparezco como "hoja de pacaya" y hay un video donde hablo de esto del tecoyal justamente.Anny: Si, Chris y algo que yo, quería como agregar nada más a la conversación. Es el hecho de que, en medio de esta forma de turismo que muchas veces es gentrificador y que también como que estas dinámicas de ir y venir hace que justamente todo alrededor de lo que sucede en Esquipulas pues cambie su dinámica Si bien es cierto, ahora cuando vas tú a Esquipulas, ya hay hoteles de repente, tal vez no de cadena, pero si de cinco estrellas. La gente ha intentado mantener hoteles que sean como de su familia. Pero eso no quita, por ejemplo, que ya haya más lugares de recreación, de consumo, de compra y de intercambio comercial.Porque pues tú sabes que al final, la situación económica, creo que a nivel mundial no es del todo buena para ninguno, [00:53:00] verdad? Entonces, pues siempre se busca la manera como de irte agenciando de ciertos fondos. Pero, ahora que lo pienso mejor, digamos en esta conversación, yo si puedo ver algo muy especial. Por ejemplo, aquí en Guatemala, hay dos lugares más en donde hay peregrinación a ver a cristo negro, que no tienes que ir a Esquipulas y que lo encuentras, aquí, de de donde yo vivo más o menos es a una hora, se llama Chinique de Las Flores. Y luego de Chinique de Las Flores a más o menos como unas tres horas, puedes llegar a Cunén. Cunén, también aquí en K'iche', que son estas, rutas de peregrinación para ir a ver también, réplicas del cristo negro de Esquipulas, pero que entonces ahí si te puedo decir que estamos encontrando aquello que una vez encontramos en Esquipulas [00:54:00] hace más de 400 años por así decirlo, 300 años.Entonces, lo estamos volviendo a encontrar ahí porque, claro, son zonas todavía de pronto un poco más pequeñas, en donde todavía el ambiente es más, comunal, comunitario, en donde, pues todavía es de pueblo, le decimos nosotros, todavía sí que está la esencia conservada de un pueblo. Entonces no se convierte en un lugar para ir a quedarte y pasar ahí una semana, que sé yo, sino que se convierte en un lugar de visita, de recogimiento de sí, ir a hacer tu tu peregrinaje, tu oración, tu penitencia.Entonces, a mí me parece que ahí todavía es en donde, donde se encuentra una esencia muy, muy rica.Chris: Pues, gracias a las energías, a los dioses y dioses que todavía hay lugares y gente que honran esas, esas tradiciones y las de también como Jairo [00:55:00] mencionó, que pues la memoria también está pegado dentro del textil, de tejido, justo tambien he visto como una una bebida chocolatosa tradicional aquí en Oaxaca que, según algunas personas tiene su origen en en el K'iche'. Aunque, se dice que ese proceso, esa receta no existe en el K'iche' ahora, pero todavía la memoria existe dentro de esas prácticas no? Entonces la cuestión de la hiper movilidad y el sentido de guerra constante en muchos sentidos en el el mundo contemporáneo, ¿Cómo piensan que, la peregrinación o las posibilidades de peregrinar pueden ofrecernos una manera, o maneras, o caminos a [00:56:00] socobar, la hiper movilidad, a la guerra, la comida chatarra como mencionaron, estas dinámicas y estructuras económicas que, pues nos están matando poco a poco? ¿Qué clave puede tener la peregrinación en un mundo donde queremos vivir?Anny: Pues yo creo que la responsabilidad de cada uno de nosotros que, que vamos con llevar también mensajes de esperanza, o sea, siempre hay rutas no? Está la ruta migratoria, está la ruta de la mariposa monarca. Está que esa peregrinación que hacen, van y vienen, y estas peregrinaciones que nosotros también hacemos como personas humanas, independientemente de si seamos cristianos o no, pero siempre hay una ruta que tú buscas de peregrinaje para sanar tus [00:57:00] dolores, tus enfermedades, tus traumas, tus miedos, así sea que tú vayas a peregrinar a una montaña, un volcán, un cerro, a una iglesia, a una basílica a donde sea.A mí lo importante, y lo que me parece a mi súper esperanzador es que tú tengas como también ese compromiso de compartir una luz con quienes tú te vayas encontrando en el camino. Puede ser que también tu peregrinaje entonces no parta desde el hecho de, ah voy a ir pensando solo en rezos, no, sino que, ¿Qué también puedo yo compartir en el camino?O sea que otras rutas también puedo ir yo dejando, mencionando, creo que esto lo hemos logrado con bastante efectividad cuando pensamos en las rutas migratorias y como podemos echarle una mano a les compas migrantes verdad?, Entonces a mí me parecería que una estrategia pues muy parecida, podría ayudar bastante, a ver esto con otros ojos y a ver esto, pues más allá de, [00:58:00] o sea, que que siempre podemos hacer varias cosas, cuando tenemos de repente solo una finalidad, pero al final podemos ir haciendo como mucho, entonces yo creo que como mensaje yo, eso te dejaría, o sea que, pues al final en medio de toda esta hiper movilidad, pues que la aprovechemos, no solo para quemar codos, sino para ir dejando otros mensajes a la gente, verdad? De cómo también nos vamos moviendo, movilizando, qué vamos pensando y qué está pasando alrededor del mundo. Jairo: Sí, bueno, entender que nuestras dinámicas han cambiado con el tiempo, que somos una generación que nos tocó ver cambios abismales dentro de las dinámicas de como nos hemos relacionado con otras personas, cómo aprendemos incluso porque ahora pues gracias a la hiper movilidad también, inclusive, pues a la tecnología conocemos nuevas cosas, pero no dejar de lado el en el caso, pues de la gente que peregrina, verdad? Las [00:59:00] reflexiones que hacíamos, el por qué se hace, un poquito, y también el que hacer de nosotros cuando vamos a un lugar y cuando nos movemos, verdad? El hecho de verdad estoy comprando con las personas que son de allí o me estoy yendo a meter un supermercado, de verdad esto beneficia la comunidad o esto beneficia a una empresa, pues que al final explota personas y que les compra super barato y regateado el producto, verdad? Creo que se ha mantenido, pues al menos en Esquipulas esa dinámica de consumir, pues lo que es de allí, la gente, pues esfuerza mucho porque saben que hay, personas de muchos contextos que vienen a ese lugar, por lo menos una vez al año. Entonces, entender estas dinámicas, creo que es un reto también dentro de nuestro contexto y entender también que el humano siempre se ha movido. Gracias a las personas [01:00:00] antiguas que se movieron hace 3 mil años hacia acá es que nosotros tenemos estas evidencias históricas y aprender de esas movilidades también, cómo nosotros generamos un buen impacto cuando nos estamos moviendo, pienso.Chris: Que vamos aprendiendo y recordando a la vez, cómo movernos con respeto y agradecimiento y devoción a lo que nos da vida. Vamos a asegurar que las imágenes de esos textiles hermosas, van a salir con el episodio, en el sitio web web de El Fin del Turismo. Y también los nombres y contactos si quieren de los compas que mencionaste Jairo. Y pues ha sido como un gran conversación, y me dan muchas ganas de seguir con esa [01:01:00] cuestión de peregrinación.Y en el nombre de de nuestros oyentes, me gustaría ofrecerles mis a agradecimientos más sinceros a ambos ustedes por acompañarnos hoy, y estar dispuestos a enfrentar y luchar con algunas de las contradicciones y pues también las colonizaciones que han afectado al acto y al arte de la peregrinación en nuestros tiempos. Si los oyentes tienen ganas a conocer más de lo que ustedes hacen en la vida, ¿Hay una manera de comunicar o conectar?Anny: Sí, por supuesto, en nuestras redes personales, yo soy la curadora en jefe actual de Espacio C, en Chichicastenango, entonces pues por ahí pueden , encontrarme en Instagram, o en Facebook, se escribe [01:02:00] ESPACIO/C ARTE+MEMORIA. Y luego en mis redes personales, por si alguien pues también desea buscar. Yo me encuentro en Instagram como "Anny Puac," así me pueden encontrar a mí también en Instagram para que pues vean, de pronto un poquito también de, de mi trabajo y, luego en nuestras redes comerciales como Los Cofrades Chichicastenango, así me pueden, nos pueden ir encontrando y pues ahora Jairo.Jairo: Gracias. Yo he tratado de crear contenido no de lleno, tampoco tan comercial. He hecho reflexiones en cuanto a estos elementos, ahí sí que de ambos lados, verdad? De la espiritualidad en Guatemala en general, tanto de lo católico como de lo maya, y cómo esto tiene un punto medular, es un poquito lo que ha sido mi [01:03:00] premisa durante los últimos años, evidenciar que no es netamente todo católico, cristiano y que hay elementos pues de la espiritualidad maya que prevalecen como lo que hablamos hoy.Me pueden encontrar pues, como Hoja de Pacaya en las redes sociales. La hoja de pacaya es la que se usa para decorar en las puertas de las fiestas acá en el contexto pues de Guatemala. La pacaya es una palma. También se come la flor durante los viajes, justo durante los peregrinajes. La flor de la pacaya se envuelve con huevo y se le pone salsa de tomate encima y es algo muy para viajar. Y pues, a la hoja de pacaya le dicen dentro del contexto guatemalteco a las personas que les gusta la fiesta y que no se pierden ninguna.Entonces es un poco la premisa de mi usuario, porque pues sí, me gusta documentar las fiestas, pues que se llevan a cabo en Guatemala con trasfondo, quizá de análisis [01:04:00] y de reflexión. Y pues, gracias por el espacio. Estoy muy agradecido por ello, a ambos. Chris: De nuevo, muchísimas gracias a ustedes dos por sus tiempos hoy, por sus reflexiones y sus compromisos en el mundo, en la vida. Anny: Qué gusto conocerte también. Y pues ahí estamos siempre en comunicación. Yo te de con un fuerte abrazo y no haber un fuerte abrazo a tierra que de Oaxaca también.English TranscriptionChris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast The End of Tourism Annie and Jairo. Thank you both for joining me today. I would love for you to tell our listeners where you are calling from and what the world looks like there for each of you.Anny: Thank you very much, Chris, and good morning to everyone listening, or good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone.My name is Anny and I greet you from the K'iche' Mayan territory of Chuwila, K'iche' Guatemala specifically.Jairo: Good morning to both of you, it's a pleasure to be here. Sawe ta inteer winaq (Good morning to all of you) a pleasure from the Poqomam territory of Mixco and also from the outskirts of Guatemala City, thank you for this [00:01:00] opportunity to share knowledge.Chris: And thank you both. I'm here in Oaxaca and the world seems obviously a little weird. Well, maybe not obviously, but it seems weirder by the day. We're here today to talk about Esquipulas in Guatemala. And Esquipulas is the site of several churches that have housed the Black Christ of the town, which is famous for its supposed miracles for the past four centuries.Similarly, the pilgrimage to the shrine is the largest in Central America and the second largest in the Americas, with, from what I read, 5 million people visiting it every year. Now, to start, would you be willing to explain what prompted each of [00:02:00] your interests or relationships with this place and the practice of pilgrimage?Anny: Yes, of course Chris. Well, from my personal or individual relationship as a family, I have, let's say, a clear idea of when these pilgrimages began, suddenly, when I was about seven or eight years old, so, to tell you that I have clarity, but when I go back to the family archives, well, I see that the issue of going on pilgrimage to Esquipulas, well, it begins with my grandmothers.Jairo: So I could tell you that within my family, the pilgrimage to Esquipulas, well, maybe it has been present in the family for at least 80 years, especially on my maternal grandmother's side . She is from a K'iche' territory in Quetzaltenango , where they would begin the trip, together, there was a neighborhood trip organized by the neighborhood, or it was a family trip, so one or two buses would go at that time when there wasn't much transportation, right? It was also a luxury to go by some route where there was a bus stop. And well, what couldn't be traveled by bus, well, it was done on foot, they used donkeys, but, more or less that's where the story of how these pilgrimage routes began in my family, let's say.In our case, I was not aware of having arrived in Esquipulas when I was little. Well, there is a very interesting fact, when I was 40 days old, my family decided to take me to [00:04:00] Esquipulas, so that is in the family's photo archive as a thank you, because in the end I was born with... I was born well.Jairo: And then the family decides to go on a pilgrimage. This is the closest information I have about the person going to Esquipulas. Of course, I have always been very familiar with this within my immediate context, since people from my municipality tend to go organized in excursions from the different religious organizations that exist in my municipality.These, well, designate dates and are buses filled with approximately 50 people. Each bus usually arrives up to three, from here in Mixco, well, they go to Esquipulas. And that is something very interesting because it is, well, part of modernity, let's say going by bus, but there are many anecdotes from people from here in town who [00:05:00] tell how, well, they went in a more rustic way, right? It could be, well, on a walking pilgrimage, which was not the only pilgrimage, in fact that of the black Christ of Esquipulas. Today, specifically, we are going to talk about it.But there are also the pilgrimages to Antigua Guatemala, which is very close by. Here behind us there is a hill called Alux Hill. This hill was crossed on foot, and people still do so on foot, because behind the hill is the descent to get to Antigua Guatemala.Chris: Thank you. Thank you all. So, to learn a little more about your stories, like the pilgrimage, I would like to know a little more if you could offer something about the long history of Esquipulas, of the black Christ and well, how did the pilgrimage originate? Where does that story come from?Jairo: Well, as I mentioned before, saying some [00:06:00] words in the Poqomam language. It is the language that was spoken, well, in our town. I'm going to say it again more slowly to, well, describe to you what I said, technically it is:closely related and intrinsic to the people of Mixco and also to the Oaxacan territory.My name is Jairo, Jairo Andrés Chamale Lemus. I belong to this territory, to the Poqomam Mayan people. Half of my family and my ancestors are from here. And, well, I am dedicated to tourism. I have been a tourist guide for approximately eight years , since I graduated very young. And, well, I have dedicated myself to pilgrimages so that people also learn about the historical context of Guatemala and the different cultural, religious and also resistance expressions of the people in the territory of what we now know as Guatemala.Well, I am also a student of anthropology, specifically a bachelor's degree in anthropology, and I have also dedicated myself to studying the case of the Poqomam Mayan language in Mixco, which is a community very close to Guatemala City, which has had a very strong demographic and social impact, due to the growth of the metropolitan area of Guatemala City. It is something that I have dedicated myself to studying during the last few years. And also, well, to [00:08:00] documenting it, because we have many cultural and spiritual practices in our town, which have been disappearing as the city's demographic advances, thank you very much. Rontyoox aq'oo ta Anny: Well Chris . In fact there is a record, let's say historical , which says that the first pilgrimage to Esquipulas was in March 1595 , when the image left the workshop of this sculptor Quirio Cataño, heading towards Esquipulas, towards Chiquimula. This is in the east of Guatemala. We know it as the hot zone of Guatemala. But it is the zone, let's say, like hot arid . It is a territory where there is a Xinca, Popti' community, if I'm not mistaken, Chortí as well . And so, the production that is [00:09:00] They have in the lands over there, we are talking about fruits from some plants, some tubers more or less, but most of them are dedicated to fruit, right ?This first pilgrimage is documented and recorded by the chronicler, who is called Miguel Álvarez. And he says that, when he left from the workshop and headed towards Esquipulas, the image was performing different miracles along the way until reaching the basilica . Then there were people who asked him precisely that, please, that the image spend at least one night inside the house of people to bless it. And more or less it is estimated every year, let's say currently, now in Guatemala and around 300 thousand people from all over the world, mostly between Mexico, Central America, southern countries, for example from Peru [00:10:00] from Ecuador from Ecuador, Bolivia, if I'm not mistaken, it is like a lot of people who arrive, more or less between November, which right now is like a date from November to December and all of January, let's say, those are like the three months with the greatest influx of people who arrive at the basilica, right? So you can call it a pilgrimage , you can call it a pilgrimage, what pilgrimage, usually, well there if the people who visit can do like a day's visit only or it can be that a visit can be extended for up to 10, 15 days, right?From Guatemala City to Esquipulas there is a distance of approximately 220 to 250 kilometers and if you go on a pilgrimage, you go through very specific places along the entire pilgrimage, on average [00:11:00] Every day you are doing a stretch of 40 kilometers, a day, let's say if your intention is to go on a pilgrimage like that . So that's more or less like more historical data and the story, right?Chris: And I'm a little curious, inside the estancias, when I arrive at Esquipulas, if I were on a pilgrimage, for example, what would I do? Do they stop to say their prayers? I would like to know from someone who has never made a pilgrimage, how it looked those days before coming.Anny: Well, I'm going to tell you a little bit about my family's story because My maternal grandmother, she was a lady, very Catholic, right? So, for her, her pilgrimage, let's say, was her sacrifice, right? In the year, to say well, out of gratitude [00:12:00] to my health, to the miracles that she granted me, because she was very devout. It was the fact of going on a pilgrimage route. What did this imply? Even preparing food so as to not say waste time, thinking about what to eat along the way, because the idea for them was, well, to go in a kind of contemplation, in constant prayer, in prayer, let's say in petition, to stop every so often, right? Every 40 kilometers, because within the Catholic-Christian community, there are points that are marked within the route where you can stop with each family, because they may have a replica of the image of the black Christ, because in fact, when the first pilgrimage was, this family may have been one of the [00:13:00] families who first received the black Christ.So it becomes like that stopping point, right? So, when they make that stopping point, they go down. They go down to pray, they go down to talk and to socialize with people, maybe, to share a meal. And to feel, well, like thei

En este episodio, mis entrevistados son Laura Sofía Montoya Gómez y Carlos Alberto Montoya Correa. Carlos es arquitecto egresado de la Universidad Nacional sede Medellín. Experto en planificación, gestión y ejecución de proyectos de desarrollo urbano con énfasis en viviendas económicas en tratamientos de expansión urbana, consolidación, mejoramiento de barrios, renovación urbana y en zonas con restricciones geotécnicas. Ha participado como gestor en la ejecución de más de 50.000 viviendas económicas desde el sector público, en proyectos de cooperación internacional, de aplicación de políticas nacionales y de ejecución local en varias ciudades de Colombia (Bogotá, Medellín, Armenia, Bucaramanga, Rionegro y Bello). Ha sido docente en la Facultad de Arquitectura Universidad Nacional sede Medellín y ha participado de publicaciones colectivas de carácter técnico.Sofia es arquitecta egresada de la Universidad Pontificia Bolivariana. Magíster en Arquitectura, Crítica y Proyecto de la misma institución donde actualmente también es docente en el área de Taller de Proyectos. Ha participado durante más de 13 años de varias colectividades en la ciudad de Medellín, donde ha podido desarrollar proyectos de investigación en el área del patrimonio urbano-arquitectónico que han sido publicados mediante recursos financiados a través de los estímulos de la Secretaría de Cultura Ciudadana. Es cofundadora de la Corporación Proyecto NN, organización sin ánimo de lucro que acompaña procesos comunitarios y promueve la educación y la dignificación de los espacios de encuentro populares.Notas del EpisodioQue esta pasando en MedellinEl encaricimiento de la ciudadEl turismo sexual y el pueblo moralistaLa gentrificacion de Pablo EscobarLa construccion y venta de vivienda paisaResentimiento y el dios dineroLas mascaras del gobierno“No se puede morir del exito”El derecho a la ciudad y viviendaTareaProyecto NN - Sitio Web - InstagramTranscripcion en Espanol (English Below)Chris: [00:00:00] Bienvenida Sofía, bienvenido Carlos al podcast El Fin del Turismo. Muchas gracias por estar conmigo hoy para platicar de este tema, pues si, tan complejo. Me gustaría preguntarles en dónde se encuentran hoy y como se ve el mundo para cada uno de ustedes allá.Sofia: Bueno, estamos aquí en la ciudad de Medellín. Estamos juntos en mi casa, Carlos es mi padre, y bueno, decidimos juntarnos para tener como una conversación más fluida, desde aquí, desde mi casa en el centro de la ciudad, que es un centro, pues además, bastante particular. Pues Medellín es una ciudad montañosa que queda en los Andes. Es un valle. Y digamos que el centro de la ciudad tiene, pues, unas dinámicas muy distintas a muchos centros de otras ciudades. Carlos: Es una ciudad muy estrecha [00:01:00] y tiene en el costado oriental y occidental un par de montañas llenas de barrios. Aquí mismo por la ventana se ve toda las montañas urbanizadas y en el centro está, digamos la metrópoli, lo que pudiéramos llamar una ciudad más tradicional, mientras arriba son barriadas o comunas populares. Hoy en día, muy populares para cierto turismo.¿ Y usted dónde está? Chris: Pues yo llevando en Oaxaca, en la capital de Oaxaca, México también en un valle un poco mas amplio geográficamente que Medellín . Conozco Medellín porque andaba como turista hace 15 años quizás allá. Y pues empezando toda la [00:02:00] investigación para este episodio, encontre como muchos Entonces me gustaría leer unas citas de esos artículos para los oyentes que quizás no conocen Medellín, no saben qué está pasando allá, según los medios masivos. Entonces, primero este, Nomad List. "Nomad List es una plataforma que publica su ranking de los destinos más populares para trabajar de forma remota. Colocó a Medellín en segundo lugar, el año pasado entre 157 ciudades de Latinoamérica." El próximo dice que "en la colonia de Manila de Medellín hay alquileres a corto plazo cuyos propietarios ganan más de cinco millones de pesos colombianos por mes o alrededor de $1,000 estadounidenses."El próximo decía que "aunque no se llevó [00:03:00] a cabo, el presidente local dijo en ese momento 'que prohibiría los alquileres a corto plazo en la ciudad como medida para prevenir el abuso y la explotacion sexual infantil. En esa búsqueda por encontrar una solución a ese flagelo, Guitierrez, el presidente local se reunió con representantes de la plataforma de Airbnb para llegar a un acuerdo.Desde entonces se ha trabajado de común acuerdo con las partes en conjunto para evitar medidas extremas, pero si establecer acciones que permiten prevenir este delito en la ciudad" Siguiendo, "en tanto, el número de apartmentos anunciados en Airbnb, la popular empresa de alquiler de propiedades vacacionales, subió de 8 mil en octubre de 2022 a 14 mil a [00:04:00] finales de 2023, según datos recabados por AirDNA."Y finalmente, "los datos recientes dice que Medellín recibe 1.7 millones de visitantes extranjeros a una urbe de 2 millones y medio de habitantes." Entonces, me gustaría empezar preguntándoles a ustedes dos sobre la gentrificación en Medellín. Yo encontré otro artículo sobre el tema. Y quizás se se exhibe, expone un poco de lo que está pasando allá y dice que "Wilson y Felipe, ambos se reservaron sus nombres reales. Son dueños, cada uno, de un bar cafetería en Manila en El Poblado, una de las zonas más turísticas de mayor actividad económica. Los dos vecinos son de los pocos que quedan en su [00:05:00] cuadra, porque prácticamente todas las casas de la zona se transformaron en restaurantes, pequeños hoteles y hostales, escuelas de español o viviendas para alquileres cortas a través de aplicaciones como Airbnb, que toman los extranjeros y que en parte son la causa del sobrecosto en los precios de la vivienda para los habitantes tradicionales. Entre 2022 y 2023, los arriendos crecieron entre 50 y 100%.Este barrio cambió demasiado, dice Wilson, era familiar y vea, se volvió tierra de viciosos y jíbaros que atiende a domicilio. Toda esa 'gentrificación' como le dicen, es a raíz de los inversionistas extranjeros y se encareció todo. Carlos, tú has trabajado para empresas estatales en Medellín y Bogotá, la Empresa de Desarrollo Urbano. y [00:06:00] sofia, tú has trabajado en el Proyecto NN ahí en Medellín. Entonces quizás podrían ofrecernos una idea de lo que ha sucedido en Medellín en los últimos años y las últimas décadas en términos de gentrificación y qué papel tiene que desempeñar el turismo y los turistas en ello. Carlos: Pues yo, yo percibo esta situación como supremamente novedosa y reciente. Vale decir que Medellín en los 90 era una ciudad a donde no venía nadie. Es decir, la situación de violencia urbana. Toda esta crisis que desató el narcotráfico en la ciudad nos tenía marginados del resto del mundo. Era una ciudad bastante poco atractiva por lo violenta y de inversiones relativamente paralizadas.[00:07:00] Sofia: Fue la ciudad más violenta del mundo. Carlos: SíSofia: En cierto momento Carlos: Y necesitó de una estrategia de atención entre la presidencia de la república y la alcaldía local que ustedes en México le llaman "presedencia local" para encontrar alternativos de futuro. Se llamaban los seminarios de muchas conversaciones.Entonces, lo primero que quiero enseñar es que es un hecho muy nuevo, y muy reciente. Nosotros para ver un extranjero, era un futbolista que venían a los dos clubes. De resto aquí no venía a nadie. Ver rostros chinos o japoneses o alemanes eran, eso es muy sui géneris. Y el paisa, la cultura antioqueña es una cultura supremamente hospitalaria.La gente acá desborda de amabilidad. Es una cosa muy curiosa. El solo hecho de sentir a una persona de otra [00:08:00] región, no necesariamente extranjero, puede ser de otra región colombiana. El antioqueño desarrolla un, unas habilidades y unas formas de relación, muy amenas, muy atractivas. El antioqueño es una persona muy conversadora, muy dicharachero, y es muy abierto. Es muy tranquilo en las relaciones, diría eso en principio. Entonces sí, si sentimos, realmente se siente abrumadora la presencia de extranjeros, porque es notoria. Aquí mismo nosotros vivimos aquí. Yo vivo en un par de cuadritos donde los hoteles pequeños proliferan en dos cuadras han, se han desarrollado en los últimos tres años.cinco, seis, siete hoteles, y la presencia del extranjero, es notoria. Y como le digo en un principio, era muy bienvenida, porque el extranjero, pues trae monedas con un [00:09:00] cambio muy fuerte y también aquí, el país es de una mentalidad comercial y negociante extrema. Aquí el negocio se ve pa vender un hueco, pues hacemos otro hueco.Es decir, la gente aquí es supremamente ingeniosa en la forma de establecer negocios. Sofia: Si, y, y creo que la ciudad hizo un esfuerzo institucional por cambiar también la narrativa. Pues porque, como lo dice Carlos, estuvo muy estigmatizada, pues somos la ciudad de Pablo Escobar. Cierto.Eso es una carga como simbólica muy fuerte. Y entonces se ha hecho pues un un esfuerzo, por mostrar otras cosas que también somos. Creo que el reggaetón tiene mucho que ver como con la visibilidad de la ciudad también. Cierto, porque digamos que el reggaetón no solamente pues han salido grandes estrellas, grandes cantantes pues como de de aquí de Medellín, sino [00:10:00] que el reggaetón pues como muchas otras géneros musicales, pues como que en salsa o, o bueno enaltece, pues esas figuras como el narcotráfico de bueno, como cierta estética también. Y entonces es muy atractivo para muchos extranjeros venir a conocer la ciudad del reggaetón.Y esa era una cosa que estaba pasando, digamos, de una manera más orgánica y más lenta antes de la pandemia. Con la pandemia se corta y luego de la pandemia, si se desbordó. O sea, ocurre como un fenómeno desbordado. También me imagino, pues como por esas ansias de mucha gente de viajar y de pues, de haber estado como paralizada en sus lugares, y la ciudad realmente no estaba preparada.O sea, yo creo que todo ese esfuerzo institucional que se hizo, no se midió tampoco, como hasta, hasta dónde podía llegar, cierto? Porque, si bien es cierto que la ciudad es supremamente hospitalaria y acogedora, digamos que el clima es una de las cosas que también [00:11:00] a muchos extranjeros les llama la atención. Es un clima muy ideal, cierto? Un eterno verano. Pues, obviamente también hay unas estructuras, que ofrecen cosas. Hay mucha droga, hay mucha prostitución, cierto? Es una ciudad como también para un turismo que no deja tantas cosas buenas. Además, bueno, tú sabrás y tendrás del conocimiento, el turismo así no sea, pues, este turismo como de drogas y de prostitución y de fiesta desbordada. El turismo es un fenómeno que tiende como a arrasar, cierto? Es un fenómeno que encarece, entonces. Sí, creo que en en un principio, es una ciudad que un poco quería que esto sucediera, pero en este momento no sabe muy bien cómo manejar. Carlos: Si también hubo un momento en que cuando la ciudad empezó a despegar, hubo cierto turismo académico, porque la ciudad empezó a ser muy sonora en cuanto a ciertas transformaciones [00:12:00] urbanísticas. Esta es una ciudad que tiene una empresa de servicios públicos muy poderosa. Nosotros tenemos en Medellín, la alcaldía es la dueña de una especie de multinacional criolla que le vende servicios públicos y energía eléctrica. Le vende energía eléctrica a Panamá, a Ecuador y le brinda servicios públicos a unos 90 municipios en Colombia. Entonces, la ciudad tiene una capacidad de inversión social realmente notoria.Y entonces la ciudad empezó a hacer eventos académicos para mostrar. Por ejemplo, Bogotá, que es la capital de Colombia, tiene 8,000,000 de habitantes. No ha podido construir un metro. Chris: Wow.Carlos: Y el metro de Medellín está cumpliendo 30 años. Lo que quería señalar es que se desarrolló una forma de turismo muy curiosa. Y es que aquí vienen extranjeros a visitar barrios populares, a meterse en [00:13:00] Moravia o en lo que aquí llamamos Comuna 13, en un hecho muy curioso por lo menos porque pues ir a un barrio popular donde, donde no hay servicios cómodos, donde no hay locaciones, donde pues, a ver como el espectáculo popular. No sé, es una cosa muy, muy curiosa y es increíblemente desbordado.Es decir, hay lugares donde no cabe la gente físicamente y siguen yendo, o sea allá, son, todo eso es incómodo. Pero la gente sigue yendo, no se como a que, pero siguen llegando. Sofia: Es una pregunta que nos hacemos constantemente, pues, de hecho, varios amigos siempre me dicen como, es que, a qué vienen? A qué vienen aquí?Pues no entendemos a qué vienen, tal vez porque uno tiene naturalizado. No sé, pues todo lo que pasa aquí, pero uno sigue sin entender, Carlos: Pero, diría, el turismo está asociado como a los centros de negocios, a los centros [00:14:00] históricos, a los centros culturales, pero que los barrios populares se volviesen un objetivo turístico.Entonces, al principio, un turismo como institucional y académico. Aquí se hicieron eventos donde llegaron 2 mil estudiantes, de universidades de todo Colombia, de Ecuador, y de países vecinos, a ver lo que estaba pasando en Medellín. Pero de ese turismo muy institucional, académico de centros de estudio, de aulas, se transfirió, a un deseo de conocer los barrios populares y entonces el turista, el otro turista, perdóneme que hable así de, el que viene un poquitico maliciosamente a buscar como huellas del narcotráfico, o consumo, o redes de prostitución, se pega ahí y hay en estos momentos una acción entre Manila como sitio receptor de turismo y [00:15:00] Comuna 13, como sitio. Como Manila se controla, en ese acuerdo, en ese pacto entre empresarios del turismo y presidencia local, se hace unos pactos de control. Entonces el turista ya no trae las niñas al barrio Manila, sino que van a buscarlos en la Comuna 13. O sea, pero sigue siendo el barrio popular un centro de atracción de turismo inusitado de unas escalas tremendas y hay una avidez, nos hago mucho realmente de qué pues realmente pero, pero está mezclado el turismo tradicional, el turismo popular y el turismo como académico si pudiéramos decir se entremezclan. Están ahí todos mezclados. Desbordando, desbordando la ciudad, encareciendo mucho. Se siente verdaderamente. Sofia: Es que en este momento, Medellín es la ciudad más costosa de Colombia. O sea, por encima de Bogotá.Chris: [00:16:00] Mm.Sofia: Que eso nunca había pasado. Siempre, pues, para alguien de Medellín ir a Bogotá era más costoso. Carlos: No, y un empleo, por ejemplo, mira, yo tuve el mismo cargo, se puede decir el mismo cargo, en Medellín y en Bogotá. Y por el solo hecho de estar en Bogotá, la asignación salarial, es más del doble. Entonces, Bogotá pues es la capital, eso mismo ha de pasar en todos los países del mundo. Pero yo mencioné que es una ciudad estrecha, tiene mucha posibilidad de crecimiento y de oferta habitacional. Al llegar este turismo, prácticamente copó todo el interés de los empresarios y ya, construir viviendas económicas aquí no le interesa nadie.Chris: Y pues me gustaría llegar profundizando esa última noción o esta consecuencia del turismo, de la despojo, perdón en la ciudad, pero primero, me gustaría abrir un [00:17:00] poco de esos temas de la imagen de Medellín que quizás se da a los turistas extranjeros, como mencionaste Sofia, como mencionaste Carlos, de la prostitución y también el narcotráfico, una nota de la investigación que hice dice que recientemente el alcalde Guitierrez anunció que el ciere de 150 propiedades que en su mayoría están vinculados a la plataforma que habrían sido utilizadas para fines de turismo sexual y explotación de niños, niñas y adolescentes en la capital antioqueña. Ahora, en primer lugar, tiene a recapitular los imaginarios coloniales de violación o coerción. En segundo lugar, puede implicar a menores de edad. En tercer lugar, los servicios que prestan a las trabajadores sexuales en un lugar determinado pueden ocultar fácilmente la presencia de crimen [00:18:00] organizado, Dadas las complejidades y contradicciones presentes en el tema de turismo sexual, en un campo de trabajo en el que muchos están tratando de superar prejuicios y criminalizacion. ¿Cómo ven ustedes dos estos temas en en este momento? Sofia: Pues a ver, lo primero que yo quisiera decir es que las redes de prostitución pues, o de trabajo sexual o de trata, pues, como de personas no iniciaron por la movida turística. O sea, esta ciudad siempre ha sido un lugar donde el trabajo sexual ha sido, como uno de los rubros de la economía, incluso, pues, en la época del narcotráfico. O sea, siempre ha sido así. Pues, como que las paisas tienen fama de ser mujeres bonitas. De bueno, tanto dinero que se ha movido en esta ciudad también, digamos que viene amarrado, pues como con ese tipo de actividades. [00:19:00] Entonces simplemente yo creo que el boom del turismo simplemente encuentra una estructura vieja que está que funciona muy bien. Es una estructura que ya existía. Lo mismo pues que lo de las drogas. O sea, lo que pasa es que aquí las drogas, tal vez en los 90s, no se consumían tanto en la misma ciudad, porque todas se exportaban, pero la estructura está y pues simplemente el turismo se pega de esa estructura. Entonces, aquí la gente, pues es como también muy moralista y a todo el mundo le parece horrible que un gringo ande con una muchachita, pero esa muchachita ha andado con los mismos países de aquí toda la vida. Que les parece terrible, es que está sucediendo en los barrios tradicionalmente ricos de la ciudad. Y eso es lo que les molesta, porque prostitución, pues nosotros, que siempre hemos vive en el centro, siempre ha estado, siempre ha existido y esa dinámica no es nueva. Entonces, digamos que me parece que el paisa bueno, todo lo que hemos dicho, lindo del [00:20:00] paísa, pero también es muy moralista y se escandaliza, pues solamente cuando están al lado de su casa. Carlos: Claro, pero además de que eran estructuras de negocios ilícitos asociados entre sí, es decir, narcotráfico y todas estas otras patologías sociales. A ello, el turismo, lo que hizo fue darle una manifestación inmobiliaria porque antes, claro, pero en los barrios ricos no. Sofia: O muy, o muy puntualmente, pues, o muy, muy escondido.Carlos: Muy escondido, cierto?Pero, pero como se vio una fuente de negocio, como yo puedo arrendar y obtener, como dijiste, 2 mil doscientos dólares en arrendamientos, pues la visión de negocio y mercantilistas del paisa que la tiene por naturaleza, se embarca y entonces se asoció la droga y estos negocios, estas patologías sociales ilícitas a una versión [00:21:00] inmobiliaria.Y ahí sí, la versión inmobiliaria tiene efectos en la economía de los arrendamientos, en la economía de varios de prestigio. Y entonces ya eso se vuelveSofia: Molesto. Carlos: Una problemática de otra índole. Sofia: Molesto y visible. Pero lo que yo quiero anotar es, por ejemplo, en la época los 90, en El Poblado, había fincas gigantes donde eran, pues como burdeles y pues los narcotraficantes iban allá y se encerraban, pero como estaba encerradito todo el mundo sabía que allí sucedían ese tipo de cosas. Llegaban, veían a las chicas llegar, o sea, como toda la dinámica, pero como sucedía ahí puntualmente. Pues, cierto, como en la época, no pasaba nada. Carlos: En esa época, los narcos trajeron a todos los artistas importantes, de habla hispana. Todos los artistas, no quiero decir ningún nombre, algunos ya están difuntos, pero los artistas más importantes estuvieron haciendo shows en esas casas campestres donde [00:22:00] obviamente en el entretenimiento del narco, pues están desafortunadamente, las niñas bonitas paisas que Sofia: Pero entonces, claro, esto era como puntualmente y era como una actividad que hacían los narcos, ya cuando sucede esto, pues es que ya es en tu mismo edificio, en el barrio que has habitado toda la vida.Y entonces ahí, si se vuelve como muy abierto, como muy escandaloso, pues para esta sociedad que es como tan moralista. Yo, por ejemplo, no creo que eso sea una patología social. O sea, yo creo que pues finalmente, así como hay hombres que entregan su cuerpo y se vuelven sicarios y pueden sufrir, pues su cuerpo está expuesto a que les pase cosas horribles.Pues hay mujeres que también encuentran en su cuerpo, pues una manera de sobrevivir y creo que, finalmente es una expresión como de la desigualdad, cierto?, y de la oportunidad. O sea, hay muchas mujeres y yo las conozco que que estudiaron una [00:23:00] carrera, o sea que no es que tengan tampoco necesidades, pues como vitales y deciden elegir ese camino porque es muy rentable, cierto?Y esta es una ciudad que lo permite. Entonces, por ejemplo, no, no lo veo desde ese punto de vista tan moralista. Lo que sí es cierto es que precisamente por esa moral, como tan católica que tenemos todavía en esta ciudad, no hay mecanismo de control porque el único mecanismo de control es, decir que está mal, criminalizarlo y no se pasa de ahí, y no creo que pronto vayamos a pasar de ahí. Entonces, pues yo no veo, que eso, primero ni vaya a seguir sucediendo, creo que va a seguir sucediendo. Ni tampoco veo que haya como una actitud desde la institucionalidad más inteligente.Carlos: Sí, las medidas del alcalde son más, más que todo anuncios para calmar el alboroto de la élite.Sofia: Es que eso no tiene efecto. Carlos: No tiene efecto de nada. Chris: Gracias. Gracias, Sofía [00:24:00] y Carlos por sacar esas contradicciones que están ahí dentro de las dinámicas en Medellín. Pues más allá del turismo sexual y a veces junto con ello, es el turismo de drogas o narcos. Y un artículo de mi investigación dice que. Un comerciante en Medellin cuenta que algunos habitantes de La Comuna la promocionan como la "cuna" de Escobar para atraer más clientes.Es más rentable, dice. Aquí compran camisetas de él, eh, ave María, todo lo alusivo a Pablo se vende mucho, dice el hombre que por seguridad, pide no ser citado. Y es que, pese a que la zona luce pacificada por el turismo, el control sigue en manos de los combos. El comerciante afirma que ahí operan bandas pequeñas [00:25:00] como Los del Uno, Los de Dos, Los Pirusos y Los Negros.Ellos cobran cuota por negocio chuzo al aire libre y hasta parqueadero. Aquí no se abre un local sin su permiso. Y también pasa con los cuentos Airbnb que están empezando a abrir.Ahora, una colega investigadora que trabaja junto a activistas en Colombia, me dijo hace un año aproximadamente que los carteles de narcotráfico en Medellin habían comenzado a utilizar Airbnb como una forma de lavar dinero.Seguramente esto ha sido así desde hace mucho tiempo en el sector de inmobiliario normal, pero este simbolizaría una conexión directa, entre el crimen organizado, el turismo y la crisis de la vivienda. Entonces, ¿Qué piensan ustedes sobre la posibilidad de que los narcos, ya sea en [00:26:00] Medellin o la Ciudad de México, sean en secreto propietarios de Airbnb?Sofia: Pues, bueno, frente a la primera pregunta o parte de la pregunta de lo de Pablo Escobar, pues es innegable, pues, que es una figura demasiado importante y no solamente, pues, como figura particular él, sino porque es un estereotipo de lo que somos. Yo no diría que los colombianos, pero no me siento pues como para hablar por todo el territorio nacional, pero si es un estereotipo de lo que es un paisa. Y por eso, pues muchas personas dirán horrible, no me quiero identificar con esta persona, pero así lo digan, pues tenemos mucho de él, pues así como él tiene mucho de nosotros, pues es que tenemos una cultura que es compartida. Y finalmente, pues uno tiene tíos, amigos, pues que parece que tienen algunas, características de Pablo Escobar. Es un es un personaje pues que es muy cercano, para [00:27:00] nosotros. Y así la ciudad intente, digamos, desde la élite, desde lo institucional, rechazarlo, es algo que es imposible, es imposible pues como negarlo. Carlos: Sí, por ejemplo, en Comuna 13, parte del show o del evento turístico, es hacer muchas alusiones a la figura de Pablo Escobar. Entonces, está el tipo que tiene una fisionomía igualitica, como si fuera un actor, un doble y una serie de eventos cuando Escobar no tiene nada que ver ni con la violencia urbana que tuvo Comuna 13, pero es una forma en que la mentaría popular ve que explotar la figura de Escobar, pues es muy rentable para cierto turismo extranjero que todavía quiere circular versiones, relatos, que ya son [00:28:00] completamente míticos o legendarios porque son totalmente inventos, para traer clientes.Sofia: Sí, y y además, uno se pone a pensar porque es que mucha gente se ofende. Osea, incluso pues me ha tocado presenciar momentos en que alguien se ofende porque un turista o un extranjero dice como "uy, yo vine porque es la ciudad de Pablo Escobar y me emociona y quiero una camiseta," cierto? Pero es como, no sé si uno va y visita la ciudad de Al Capone. Pues es como lo mismo, simplemente es como un mito. Es una figura, cierto? Pues los criminales también han sido igual de atractivos que los personajes que son buenos, incluso, pues yo creería que los personajes malvados son los que son más atractivos. Entonces, claro, aquí hay mucha, mucho resentimiento pues ante esa figura, pues porque todavía hay familiares de las víctimas, o sea, es una historia demasiado reciente, pero para el extranjero es simplemente una historia más, una historia de lo que ven en las películas. Y yo siento que muchas [00:29:00] personas que se, que se ven atraídas como por esa figura tienen como una noción del asunto muy infantil.Pues creen que realmente es un personaje de una película, cierto? No entienden que realmente pues que esta ciudad explotó en bombas. No lo conciben y pues yo que no estoy tan adulta a mí me tocó. O sea, es una cosa que es demasiado reciente y todavía esta sociedad está muy traumatizada por eso.Entonces, por eso es que hay tanto recelo, pero al mismo tiempo, es una oportunidad de negocio porque vende demasiado. Carlos: Mira, nosotros vivimos aquí, pues en el centro de la ciudad y mi señora y yo, estaban ellos muy chiquitos. En la noche, contábamos las bombas, una, dos, siete, ocho, porque yo no sé si conoces la canción de La Noche De Chicago... de Mirta Castellanos.Bueno, una canción que narra el enfrentamiento [00:30:00] de los gángsters en Estados Unidos contra la policía. Eso fue una masacre tremenda entre ambos bandos. Aquí vivimos eso, pero no era con ametralladoras, era con bombas. Pues, es decir, este tipo voló un edificio en Bogotá, el edificio del DAS.Voló un avión de pasaderos civiles en el aire, o sea, un un personaje real. Y eso suena como fantástico, que eso no es realidad, pero eso es realidad. Esta ciudad estuvo marcada por escombros de todas esas detonaciones, además de que las masacres juveniles solo para crear caos. Pues estar un grupo de muchachos departiendo en en una discoteca y llegar grupos de sicarios solo por el solo hecho de que al otro día en las noticias, haya pavor en toda la ciudadanía porque se pensaba ganar esa guerra de esa manera. Sofia: Terrorismo pues, [00:31:00] entonces, como cerrando un poco, pues para nosotros todavía es una historia dolorosa. Pero si uno también, como se pone en el papel de alguien que está en otro país y tiene otra realidad, pues claro que es una historia supremamente atractiva.Y fuera de eso, puedes ir a la ciudad que fue la ciudad más peligrosa del mundo, pero ya sabes que no te va a pasar nada. Pues, okey, digamos, hay cierta seguridad, porque realmente aquí los turistas están cuidados y no están cuidados por la policía. Están cuidados porque las estructuras criminales, como ya lo dijiste, enlazando con la segunda parte, las estructuras criminales ya dieron la orden que a los turistas no les puede pasar nada porque están vinculados directamente a su negocio. Entonces es por esto que tenemos un gringo, pues que pena decirlo así, pero, así le decimos nosotros, un gringo, en un barrio popular y es más fácil que le pase algo a uno que es de la misma ciudad que a ellos. No les va a pasar nada, por qué? Porque son fuente de dinero y porque si los matan o si les pasa algo malo, van a dejar de venir.Carlos: El negocio [00:32:00] se daña. Sofia: Exactamente, es como, no sé si sabes pues, pero aquí a la, a los expendios de droga se les dice plazas. Y no hay lugar en la ciudad más seguro que una plaza, porque es que en una plaza a ti nadie te va a robar. porque pues está totalmente controlado y no le vas a dañar el negocio a los que tienen el negocio.Entonces, obviamente es muy atractivo y aunque uno podría decir que gente tan boba o lo que sea o no entienden la historia, no están interesados en la historia, pues es que es una historia que realmente es muy atractiva. Pues porque aquí él contó un par de cosas, un par de titulares, pero todo lo que tiene que ver con los narcotraficantes de nuestra región es bastante fantástica.Pues es, y por eso es que le han hecho series a Pablo Escobar, porque es que realmente es un personaje, pues muy interesante, muy interesante y con unas historias, pues que, que son cinematográficas. Entonces, como no se va a sentir el mundo atraído hacia eso. Carlos: El tipo vivió una película en carne propia continua, pues [00:33:00] todo, la cárcel, las escapadas, los negocios que montó, la estrategia de llevar la coca en aviones.Sofia: Y entonces asociado a lo que decías, pues que esta estrategia, pues como inmobiliaria o está de vínculo con los Airbnbs, pues claro a mí no me parece extraño, es que estas estructuras son supremamente inteligentes. Van adelante, claro. Y donde vaya mucho dinero siempre va a estar detrás pues, bueno, ¿Cómo lavamos dinero? Es que nos entra tanto dinero que tenemos que lavarlo. No lo vamos a lavar vendiendo empanadas. Vamos a lavarlo con algo que genere mucho dinero. Entonces, siempre, pues es que aquí han lavado plata con todo lo que uno se imagine y siempre han tenido casas, negocios, las farmacias, por ejemplo. Carlos: Y y Chris, la actividad inmobiliaria. Ya cuando yo estudiaba, obviamente, yo tengo 68 años. O sea hace 35 años que estudiaba la zona de prestigio de El Poblado [00:34:00] era toda de casas campestres a las cuales se ingresaba por rieles, o sea. Sofia: Por un camino de piedra. Carlos: Si, sin una infraestructura urbana. Y en 30 años, el paisaje es lleno de torres, absolutamente lleno de torres, saturado. Lavado, aquí no hay una economía como para que mucha gente pudiente desarrollara no, no. Eso solamente se explica porque, pero era el negocio formal. Sí, y ese "negocio" entre comillas, no, no ocasionaba la molestia como ahora la, la gentrificación, antes , por el contrario, toda la élite valorizó sus fincas para en ella desarrollar torres, se llenaron de dinero, con dinero que era con seguridad absoluta en un porcentaje muy alto finanzas para lavar.Sofia: De negocios ilícitos. Y el crecimiento de esta ciudad y sí, porque es un crecimiento demasiado [00:35:00] rápido. Pues a ti te, te debió haber tocado El Poblado ya totalmente lleno de torres pues. Pero lo que quiero decir es que acá no hay una economía tan grande como para que eso sucediera tan rápido. Entonces, pues es obvio, o sea, ahora nos parece como "uy podrían ser dueños de Airbnb." y yo diría, quién más? Quién más va a ser dueño en esta ciudad de ese negocio? Quiénes son capaces de comprar edificios enteros? O sea, quiénes tienen el dinero para invertir? Carlos: Y para recuperarlo contra rentas cortas, es decir que me parece que es una inversión de mucho riesgo. Porque cualquier evento. Sofia: Pues la misma pandemia. Carlos: Lo lo puede tirar al suelo, cierto? Quién puede arriesgar eso? El narco.Sofia: Es que mira que aquí tradicionalmente en la ciudad, acá les llamamos "panaderías paracas." Pues y son panaderías que venden el peor pan. O sea, nadie compra. Pero funcionan 24 horas. Carlos: Y son super [00:36:00] lujosas, o sea lo que son muy bien establecidas.Sofia: Y son negocios que nunca tienen clientes y venden un pan horrible y nadie les compra, pero siempre están ahí en las mejores esquinas.Carlos: Abiertas todo el tiempo. Sofia: Y además, tienen ligado como que eso lo inauguró Pablo Escobar, pues como un sistema de vigilancia. Entonces, en la época de Pablo escobar, eran los taxistas, cierto? Había como una red de taxis asociados y todavía creo que eso funciona. Pues y quiénes van a esas panaderías? Es decir, o sea, siempre siempre el narcotráfico, claro, tiene que tener negocios legales, pa poder, pues, si pa [00:37:00] poder. Chris: Órale, pues qué fuerte y todo y supongo que debajo de todo, hay como más evidencia más capas de crimen organizado, no solo narcos, pero también el estado. Pienso como en una corporación de nivel mundial que se llama Blackstone, que ya ha pasado en lugares como Barcelona y otros ciudades en donde, [00:38:00] eh, se compran un edificio, se desplazan toda la gente, o sea, todos los residentes adentro y se convierte todo en Airbnb. O sea cada depa es un Airbnb ya, como 30, 50, 100, lo que sea, y se emplean, negocios tras negocios, tras negocios para, por ejemplo, los sistemas de organizar reservaciones, de la limpieza. Pero todos los trabajadores, todos los negocios no son parte de Blackstone. Son como empleado como freelance, no? Entonces ni hay ninguna cara vista en ese dinámica que está sacando, desplazando a la gente de sus edificios.Sofia: No, yo iba a decir que de pronto aquí no, no, no es tan visible aún eso como de comprar edificios ya habitados, pero sí de construirlos. O sea, ya si se están [00:39:00] construyendo muchos edificios totalmente de Airbnb con inversiones extranjeras o locales, porque hay un personaje, pues aquí que que está como abanderado de ese tema y que dice que va, va a llenar todo Airbnb y que le parece bien.Pues yo siento que está empezando a suceder. Está empezando a suceder. Chris: Gracias, Sofía. Y pues, los efectos de turismo [00:40:00] excesivo, el sobreturismo y la gentrificacion en Medellin parece que han llegado muy rápido y fuerte. Sin embargo, los últimos años han surgido cuentas en las redes sociales criticando al turista, al nómada digital o al gringo, por lo que está sucediendo. ¿Es eso lo que ustedes todos también ven allá y están de acuerdo con la evaluación?Sofia: Pues, a ver, resentimiento. Mm, no me parece que sea muy visible. O sea, me parece que hay como mucho escándalo, moralista. Pero pues, a a ver hubo como una pequeña marcha en el alrededor del Parque Lleras en contra pues del Airbnb, en contra de la explotación sexual infantil, pero no es muy masivo. O sea, ahí sí siento que culturalmente somos. O sea, aunque el paísa puede ser muy [00:41:00] beligerante como en sus palabras, como que parece muy bravo y furioso, realmente somos muy sumisos y sumisos ante el Dios Dinero. Entonces, mientras haya negocio, se acepta, se moverá, cierto? Y entonces, este efecto, pues como que de hecho, pues en en otras conversaciones hemos dicho bueno, yo no lo llamaría gentrificación.Pues lo llamaríamos turistificación porque es una cosa que se está generando desde el turismo específicamente porque la gentrificación habla más desde un desplazamiento de un grupo social a otro, pero no necesariamente se refiere al turista. Y claro que hay un efecto porque en este momento hay una burbuja inmobiliaria.Están muy costosos los arriendo en Medellín, el costo de la vida está altísimo. Y eso digamos que aunque se concentra en el sur, en El Poblado y en Laureles, pues en el occidente, eso tiene una onda expansiva, pues que afecta como el resto de la ciudad y realmente los arriendos se han encarecido, digamos de lo más costoso a lo que era pues como más barato. Y si nos afecta a todos, [00:42:00] pero yo no veo a nadie ni organizándose, no? Carlos: Ni siquiera la relación que estableciste en una pregunta anterior con la oferta de vivienda. Porque, digamos una cosa es que algunos edificios obsoletos o que se desarrollen nuevos edificaciones para atender turistas, pero supuestamente la oferta de vivienda tradicional de la ciudad debería continuar, pero no ha sido así.O sea, la situación se ha agravado porque ya te mencioné. Esta es una ciudad muy estrecha y es una ciudad que no tiene suelo de expansión. No tiene para dónde crecer. Entonces, cuando este tema llega al tema inmobiliario, uno pensaba que iba a haber una reacción, no necesariamente resentimiento, sino una reacción social. Sofia: Por lo menos de exigencia pues ante las autoridades, pues, que tomen conciencia en el asunto. Carlos: O institucionales, o de los gremios, pero no. Porque finalmente hay [00:43:00] negocio y el negocio opaca todo en la cultura y en la mentalidad nuestra. Yo creo que, que todavía una respuesta ante la crisis, yo creo que la crisis va a seguir acentuándose. Va a seguir manifestandose y acentuándose, y que una reacción o una respuesta empresarial, institucional. Sofia: O ciudadana... Carlos: Exactamente, todavía no, se ve muy clara.Sofia: Sí, porque si uno, si puede decir bueno, "hay gente que no le gustan los turistas," pero no es una cosa generalizada, porque de nuevo, si hay como un espíritu como hospitalario o si el turista te trata bien a ti, porque lo vas a tratar mal. O sea, yo no he visto, pues, que en un negocio alguien vaya a tratar mal a un turista que no le quiera vender. No, eso no sucede. Pues, entonces no creo que esté sucediendo algo así. Pues, creo que, la situación, digamos, económica y social, estaba muy densa, pues está como muy [00:44:00] fuerte aquí en la ciudad y la gente simplemente está intentando sobrevivir.Carlos: Y digamos, el malestar que se presentó en Manila y sus alrededores es porque ciertos eventos de drogadiccion y prostitución era muy visibles. Cuando se logra el pacto de ocultar, pues todos tranquilos, porque la gente aquí es muy mojigata. Esto es una una sociedad simplemente conservadora, "católica" entre comillas y con que la cosa no se vea, pues está bien. Sofia: Yo también quería anotar que, que claro que han habido como unas pequeñas manifestaciones en El Poblado, cierto?, de residentes que se han visto afectados. Pero eso no tiene eco en toda la ciudad porque es que eso finalmente gente rica que está molesta porque ya no puede vivir en el arrendamiento, en el barrio que vivió toda la vida, sino que le toca desplazarse a otro menos cómodo.Pero no es como que se vayan a quedar sin posibilidad de vivir en la ciudad, por ejemplo. Me parece que no es como algo tan crítico. Y eso no va a tener eco en la [00:45:00] ciudad porque un montón de niños ricos se quedaron sin poder pagar su apartamento, pues, o el apartamento que quieren o en el barrio que quieren.Simplemente claro está desplazando un poco, entonces hay nuevas zonas. Eso si se llama gentrificación, estos barrios más tradicionales, más populares están siendo ocupados por estas personas de clase alta de nuestra ciudad que han sido desplazadas por la gente de clase alta del mundo, cierto?Y entonces esta gente que habitaba en esos barrios tradicionales, pues le toca coger para la ladera, cierto? Para los barrios populares. Y bueno, y digamos que esa es la incomodidad. Pero yo no siento que sea algo generalizado.O sin mucha fuerza, o por lo menos no con una llamada clara a la [00:46:00] acción. Chris: Vale, vale, pues muchas gracias, Sofía, Carlos. Entonces, si no hay tanta resistencia en las calles, me gustaría preguntarles de las acciones del gobierno de Medellin. Entonces, en mi investigación para el episodio, yo leí algunos artículos que ofrecen los siguientes datos:Ahora, "Medellin tiene un déficit de más de 50,000 viviendas según Viva, según la empresa de vivienda de la gobernación de Antioquia."Ahora, "Juan Camilo Vargas, director de Asohost, el [00:47:00] gremio de esta actividad en Colombia dice que el 40% de sus operaciones se concentra en Medellín y que el negocio no es ilegal. Entonces un alcalde no puede pasar por encima de una norma nacional."Ahora "Y aunque no ha tomado medidas concretas, el alcalde Gutiérrez también ha enviado señales de posibles restricciones para el negocio de los hospedajes cortos. En la ciudad más de 1700 lugares operan sin licencia según el sistema de información turística."Y finalmente "No vamos a acabar con las plataformas, pero si habrá regulaciones, dijo el mandatorio ante el consejo el 4 de marzo." Dice "No puede ser que en tres años hayan aumentado tanto los arriendos [00:48:00] o que la vida de nuestras familias se vuelve imposible por las rentas cortas."Entonces, pues el gobierno local habla de adoptar una postura dura contra el tráfico sexual relacionado con el turismo y la crisis de vivienda. Y dadas las fallas en Barcelona para enfrentar las consecuencias del turismo, incluso después de que su alcalde fue elegido por hacer exactamente eso, ¿Qué esperanza cree que existe a nivel gubernamental en Medellin? Sofia: No, claro esto una, pues, qué pena decirlo. Pero Chris, es que nosotros tenemos un alcalde que se cree Batman. Pues que anda en un helicóptero diciendo que va a perseguir el mismo a los ladrones, pero es toda una fachada y digamos que nuestra sociedad compra eso. Pero pues se cerraron tres apartamentos, tres edificios, o sea, se cerraron unos cuantos negocios.Eso sale en la primera plana. [00:49:00] Pero pues yo, yo tengo gente cercana que ha invertido en Airbnb. Y no han tenido ningún problema. No les han hecho ningún requerimiento. Nunca les han visitado la policía. Claro, creo que depende mucho como del administrador de la propiedad, no admitir lo que se supone que en la plataforma no está admitido, cierto? Que tengamos esta persona cercana que que está, pues como inversionista de un Airbnb, si dice nosotros no admitimos nada de eso. Y las veces que hemos tenido intentos de que alguien entre a alguien, se llama la policía, y claramente de una se expulsa a la persona. Bueno, digamos que si hay un procedimiento, pero ni siquiera a esa persona, la policía se lo va a llevar.O sea, a mí me ocurrió una cosa una vez, y es que yo estaba en una portería de una unidad en El Poblado y entró un extranjero con dos niños pequeños, con dos niños de 10 años. Y yo pensé que eran [00:50:00] sus hijos, pues como yo pensé que eran sus sus hijos adoptivos pues, pues, como que, bueno, simplemente yo vi a entrar un un hombre con dos niños, pero sí me llamó la atención como estaban vestidos los niños.Y le pregunté el portero, como esos son los, pues como que estaba confundida si me llamó la atención en la manera en que estaban vestidos. Y el portero me dijo no es que estos gringos vienen a hacer eso en ese apartamento y yo, pero ¿Por qué no estamos llamando a la policía? Y él me decía "es que los tienen que coger con las manos en la masa."O sea, no hay, un procedimiento tampoco para hacerle frente a esto. Y es una cosa que muchas veces sucede, pero no hay herramientas institucionales para que deje de suceder porque finalmente ellos están protegidos porque están en el interior de un apartamento, porque el dueño del apartamento está de acuerdo. Bueno, digamos que es toda una cadena. Entonces realmente es difícil del desuno de vista legal. lo que creo es que nuestro alcalde y muchos otros que hemos tenido son maravillosos haciendo anuncios, [00:51:00] cierto? Siendo portadas de periódico. Carlos: Aunque, aunque hay anuncios en el aeropuerto ahí, pues tú te bajas de un vuelo internacional y en el pasillo vas a encontrar... Sofia: Si, que que no, que no se admite esto, pero igual siempre vas a poder acceder a ello.O sea claro, y son muy buenos haciendo anuncios, así como han hecho anuncios de muchas cosas. Pues como se va a acabar la criminalidad, o sea, van a pasar muchas cosas, pero en el cotidiano, pues uno ve que eso no es cierto. O sea, uno se va para el Lleras y uno sigue viendo pues, toda la dinámica cierto?. Qué era muy escandaloso, Chris, y que creo que ya dejó de pasar, que es que uno se iba para el para el Lleras. Pues que no sé si estás ubicado en El Poblado, como en el mejor dicho, es como el centro del turismo, en el barrio de El Poblado, y uno veía niñas indígenas que bailaban por monedas, cierto?. Y era como, ya ni siquiera era [00:52:00] necesariamente, es que ellas fueran prostitutas, sino no que estaban, digamos, haciendo algo que la gente consideraba muy indigno y que eran niñas y que eran indígenas. Al lado de todas las, cierto? Trabajadores sexuales que se estaban, digamos, ofreciendo sus servicios. Y eso fue lo que más, alarmó a la gente, como, porque tenemos estas niñas indígenas, y entonces, bueno, la actitud fue, se van de aquí, ya no pueden estar, le quitamos las niñas a los papás. Bueno, un montón de acciones que uno sabe desde adentro que no van a tener absolutamente ningún efecto y que es posible que esas niñas la vayan a pasar todavía peor de lo que ya la pasan, cierto?, bueno, como que yo la verdad no creo que vayan a cerrar Airbnb. No creo que vayan a prohibir el Airbnb en Medellín. Carlos: Pues yo veo muchas construcciones para adelante. Y tengo compañeros o amigos ex alumnos arquitectos que dicen que los negocios que les están entrando es diseñar y construir [00:53:00] Airbnb.Sofia: Si. Y fuera de eso, pues, porque es que esos anuncios son muy fáciles de decir. Pues incluso yo he visto que en otras ciudades han empezado a regular. Que hay zonas de la ciudad que no se admiten los Airbnbs o que, digamos tienen un tiempo, mínimo, o sea que son 30 días mínimo, entonces son estancias cortas, pero de un mínimo, o sea, no es, voy a pasar el fin de semana en Medellín y me voy a des cualquiera, sino vengo a trabajar. Pero eso ni siquiera ha sucedido.O sea, no hay una mínima regulación, entonces, pareciera de pronto, si se leen los titulares pareciera pero hasta ahora no ha pasado nada concreto. Carlos: Y hay muchos enterramientos, por ejemplo, de que el presidente local, fue financiado por todo este sector inmobiliario y pongámosle raya, relacionado con el turismo. Entonces él, él no tiene capacidad moral de controlarlos. Chris: Pues justo me encontré una cita del arquitecto Joseph Bohigas, [00:54:00] y el dice que "en la segunda ciudad de Colombia, aún hay tiempo para evitar las imágenes que se repiten hoy en Barcelona," que "Medellín no puede morir de éxito." Carlos: Pues él nos lanzó esa frase porque acordáte que te mencioné que hubo un turismo académico muy fuerte y una, pues pretendía cierta hermandad entre Medellín y Barcelona. Pues eso no tiene nada de hermanos, pero la academia va para todo. Entonces, toda esta oleada de arquitectos y urbanistas de Barcelona estuvieron aquí, asesorando a las alcaldías, a los gobernadores durante unos 10 años seguidos. Todos los arquitectos importantes de Barcelona tuvieron aquí y el vino. Y él nos dijo esa frase por ahí en el 2007. Estaba en alcaldía terminando Fajardo cuando el dijo ojo que una ciudad puede morir del éxito. Entonces desarrolle la idea y [00:55:00] más o menos decía pues la gentrificación, el encarecimiento, la turistificacion fueron cosas que no, que él anunció.Claro, esta es una ciudad sin mar. La gente viene a montañas y la vegetación. Tú sales de Medellín a dos horas y estás como en una selva. No es una selva, es un bosque tropical tremendo, muy atractivo. Yo creo que ese es un atractivo que la ciudad también ayuda a traer mucha gente, es decir, Santa Fe, Antioquia, Guatape, Jardín, son municipios relativamente cercanos, muy, muy atractivos para el que viene realmente a descansar, cierto? Entonces yo creo que esto podría ser una oportunidad. Esta situación de gentrificación, turistificación, encarecimiento, actividad inmobiliaria, que de, que está abandonando la vivienda, digamos para el, para el residente. Podría ser la oportunidad para que ese morir del éxito pudiera ser confrontado [00:56:00] mediante políticas.A eso requiere mucho liderazgo de la alcaldía, mucho. Actualmente yo no veo la alcaldía con comprensión estratégica de lo que puede estar pasando y de cómo esto pueda grabarse mucho. Sofia: Sí, sí, gracias, Carlos. Para terminar nuestra conversación, me gustaría preguntarte Sofía sobre el proyecto que nos pusimos en contacto. El Proyecto NN, me encantaría que pudieras explicarnos qué es el Proyecto NN y qué hacen ustedes ahí en Medellin? El Proyecto NN es una corporación sin ánimo de lucro, pues que está interesada por apoyar procesos como de organizaciones culturales o sociales, digamos en zonas periférica de la ciudad, aunque también hemos trabajado o nos interesa mucho también la parte, digamos pedagógica o la parte de [00:57:00] formación en temas relacionados con patrimonio, con urbanismo, cierto? Como con, cultura en general. Sofia: Somos varios arquitectos que hacemos parte, pues de la organización y todos somos profesores universitarios. Entonces, bueno, tenemos como ese interés por la pedagogía y digamos que ese cruce de la pedagogía y la dignidad espacial, y el interés por los espacios de encuentro, digamos comunitarios, pues nos ha llevado apoyar estos procesos, a encontrar mecanismos o idear proyectos para dignificar esos espacios donde la gente se encuentra, donde la gente se encuentra generalmente a compartir, pero también a aprender y a buscar como salidas para gestionar la propia vida, cierto?, digamos, para superar esa desigualdad que muchas veces también tiene que ver con la desigualdad en la oferta de oportunidades, precisamente, incluso desde la, desde la educación. Y pues, porque, aunque supuestamente en Colombia, la educación es un derecho, pues realmente no se [00:58:00] cumple cierto?. Y vinculado un poquito como a esta idea de la vivienda, pues también se supone que en Colombia, la vivienda digna es un derecho, y eso es algo que vemos que no se cumple.Y, pues, ahorita mencionábamos un poquito como la conformación de la ciudad, y podemos decir que, pues esos lugares en donde la vivienda digna no se cumple, pues se da sobre todo en las laderas, cierto? En la parte alta de la montaña. Y es allí donde estamos trabajando, donde vemos precisamente que hay un tipo de urbanización, pues como muy precaria, donde los servicios básicos no están cubiertos y donde un espacio comunitario, pues cubre realmente muchas de las necesidades de las personas, cierto?Incluso, pues , como espacio de socialización, cierto? Como espacio de encontrar pares, cierto? Para enfrentar, pues, esa situación. Entonces, bueno, eso es lo que hacemos desde el Proyecto NN y bueno, y digamos que intentamos [00:59:00] reflexionar teóricamente, pues, este asunto del derecho de la ciudad y el derecho de la vivienda, pero también estamos intentando, pues, como adelantar proyectos que tengan que ver transversalmente con este asunto. Ahora en compañía de Carlos, pues que Carlos ahorita les, te contará un poco. Pero Carlos, pues es un experto en mejoramiento integral de barrios, bueno, en todas estas intervenciones que se puedan hacer en estos, en estos lugares de la ciudad, estamos, liderando un proceso de formación, pero también un proceso constructivo, si puedes llamarse así, de prevención de riesgos y desastres.Pues, porque en estos barrios el derecho a la ciudad es eso cierto? Esta gente bueno, viven unas condiciones precarias, pero además, están arriesgando sus vidas, cierto?, porque, no tienen las condiciones urbanas, pues, para que su vivienda sea una vivienda segura.Y entonces estamos encontrando y a [01:00:00] mecanismos, pues, para transmitir algunos conocimientos técnicos y pues, para mejorar esas condiciones de vida. Entonces, digamos que, pues para nosotros el derecho a la ciudad tiene que ver también con esto, cierto? De, bueno, el estado no lo puede resolver. Pero entonces, como comunitariamente encontramos alternativas para mejorar estas condiciones. Carlos: Yo agregaría que para mí, por lo menos en la experiencia profesional que he tenido, literalmente el derecho de la ciudad es derecho a la vivienda. Yo no concibo ni siquiera la ciudad sin oferta de vivienda, sin vivienda. La ciudad es un lugar para vivir fundamentalmente y dentro de estas estrategias de gestionar la vivienda.Pues, pues, vos, sabes, Chris que Colombia y Medellín es una ciudad muy, muy determinada por por el desplazamiento desde las regiones. Es una ciudad que recibe población migrante expulsada por fenómenos [01:01:00] violentos, por buscar oportunidades, por la misma atractividad de la ciudad, porque es una ciudad que se mueve, que mueve la economía.Entonces, precisamente el sector inmobiliario, digamos entretenido con Airbnb, la alcaldía que no sabe para donde mirar y la gente llegando desde las regiones expulsada de muchas formas, se ubica en unas laderas muy, muy inhóspitas, de muy difícil adiestramiento, de muy difícil urbanización. Entonces vemos que allí, desde la formación, desde la capacitación, desde la pedagogía, de, pero siempre llevando a la práctica con la red de monitoreo de puntos críticos en un barrio, con la identificación del que es un punto crítico, con los factores de riesgo del barrio. Estamos tejiendo con ellos y el lugar de reunión, la sede de Somos Por [01:02:00] Naturaleza y el Proyecto NN, ahí nos encontramos construyendo con la gente conocimiento, oportunidades, posibilidades. En eso estamos. Chris: Orale, pues suena un proyecto increíble, necesario y muy hermoso. Entonces, gracias a ustedes dos y también en el nombre de nuestros oyentes, me gustaría agradecerles a ambos por estar dispuestos a hablar conmigo sobre estos temas hoy. Igual fue muy revelador para mí y espero que poco a poco se sigan construyendo la derecha a la ciudad, a la vivienda, y la solidaridad, con la gente ahí en Medellin. Entonces, ¿Cómo podrían nuestros oyentes seguir a sus trabajos, compañeros? Sofia: Ah, bueno, nos pueden seguir en en Instagram, @ProyectoNN. Ahí intentamos compartir, pues, como parte del proceso de los proyectos [01:03:00] que que tenemos en curso y bueno, próximamente también vamos a actualizar la página www.proyectonn.com Y bueno, por ahí pueden ver como, como las cosas que estamos haciendo y adelantando. Y pues también, muchas gracias a ti por la invitación.Siempre son temas muy bacanos como de conversar, reflexionar, chévere.Carlos: Así que a la gente de Oaxaca y a usted Chris que se interesaron en estas conversaciones, pues muchas gracias.Chris: Gracias, Sofía. Gracias Carlos. Bonito día.English TranscriptionChris: [00:00:00] Welcome Sofia, welcome Carlos to the podcast The End of Tourism. Thank you very much for being with me today to talk about this very complex topic. I would like to ask you where you are today and what the world looks like for each of you there.Sofia: Well, we are here in the city of Medellin. We are together in my house, Carlos is my father, and well, we decided to get together to have a more fluid conversation, from here, from my house in the center of the city, which is a very particular center. Well, Medellin is a mountainous city that is in the Andes. It is a valley. And let's say that the center of the city has, well, very different dynamics to many centers of other cities.Carlos: It is a very narrow city [00:01:00] and on the eastern and western sides there are a couple of mountains full of neighborhoods. Right here, through the window, you can see all the urbanized mountains and in the center is, let's say, the metropolis, what we could call a more traditional city, while up there are neighborhoods or popular communes. Nowadays, they are very popular for certain types of tourism.And where are you?Chris: Well, I was in Oaxaca, the capital of Oaxaca, Mexico, also in a valley that is a bit larger geographically than Medellín. I know Medellín because I was there as a tourist maybe 15 years ago. And so, starting all the [00:02:00] research for this episode, I found how many... So I would like to read some quotes from those articles for the listeners who may not know Medellín, don't know what's going on there, according to the mass media.So, first up is Nomad List. "Nomad List is a platform that publishes its ranking of the most popular destinations for working remotely. It placed Medellin in second place last year out of 157 cities in Latin America."The next one says that"In the Manila neighborhood of Medellin, there are short-term rentals whose owners earn more than five million Colombian pesos per month or about $1,000 US."The next one said that"Although it was not carried out [00:03:00] , the local president said at the time 'that he would ban short-term rentals in the city as a measure to prevent child sexual abuse and exploitation. In that search to find a solution to this scourge, Guitierrez, the local president, met with representatives of the Airbnb platform to reach an agreement.Since then, the parties have worked together in agreement to avoid extreme measures, but to establish actions that allow preventing this crime in the city."Continuing, "Meanwhile, the number of apartments listed on Airbnb, the popular vacation rental company, rose from 8,000 in October 2022 to 14,000 at [00:04:00] the end of 2023, according to data collected by AirDNA."And finally, "recent data says that Medellín receives 1.7 million foreign visitors to a city of 2.5 million inhabitants."So, I'd like to start by asking you two about gentrification in Medellin. I found another article on the subject. And maybe if you show it, it exposes a little bit of what's going on there and says that"Wilson and Felipe, both of whom withheld their real names, each own a café-bar in Manila in El Poblado, one of the most touristic areas with the greatest economic activity. The two neighbors are among the few left on their [00:05:00] block, because practically all the houses in the area have been transformed into restaurants, small hotels and hostels, Spanish schools, or short-term rentals through apps like Airbnb, which are taken over by foreigners and are partly the cause of the high cost of housing for traditional residents. Between 2022 and 2023, rents grew between 50 and 100%.This neighborhood has changed a lot, says Wilson. It was a family-oriented neighborhood, and you see, it became a land of drug addicts and drug dealers who provide home delivery. All this 'gentrification', as they say, is due to foreign investors and everything became more expensive. Carlos, you have worked for state-owned companies in Medellín and Bogotá, the Urban Development Company. And [00:06:00] Sofia, you have worked on the NN Project there in Medellín. So perhaps you could give us an idea of what has happened in Medellín in recent years and decades in terms of gentrification and what role tourism and tourists have to play in it.Carlos: Well, I perceive this situation as extremely new and recent.It is worth saying that Medellin in the 90s was a city where nobody came. That is to say, the situation of urban violence. All this crisis that drug trafficking unleashed in the city had us marginalized from the rest of the world. It was a rather unattractive city due to its violence and relatively paralyzed investments. [00:07:00] Sofia: It was the most violent city in the world.Carlos: YesSofia: At some pointCarlos: And it required a strategy of attention between the presidency of the republic and the local mayor's office, which you in Mexico call "local presidency" to find alternatives for the future. They were called the seminars of many conversations.So, the first thing I want to show is that it is a very new and recent fact. For us, to see a foreigner, it was a footballer who came to the two clubs. Otherwise, nobody came here. Seeing Chinese or Japanese or German faces was very unique.And the paisa, the Antioquian culture is a supremely hospitable culture.People here are overflowing with kindness. It's a very curious thing. The mere fact of feeling a person from another [00:08:00] region, not necessarily a foreigner, can be from another Colombian region. The Antioquian develops skills and ways of relating, very pleasant, very attractive. The Antioquian is a very talkative person, very talkative, and is very open. He is very calm in relationships, I would say that at first. So yes, we do feel, the presence of foreigners really feels overwhelming, because it is noticeable. We live here. I live in a couple of small blocks where small hotels have proliferated in two blocks, they have been developed in the last three years.Five, six, seven hotels, and the presence of foreigners is noticeable. And as I said at the beginning, it was very welcome, because foreigners bring coins with a very high exchange rate and here, the country has an extremely commercial and business mentality. Here, the business is seen to be selling a space, so we make another space.I mean, people here are extremely resourceful in the way they do business.Sofia: Yes, and I think the city made an institutional effort to change the narrative as well. Because, as Carlos says, it was very stigmatized, because we are the city of Pablo Escobar. True.That is a very strong symbolic burden. And so an effort has been made to show other things that we are as well. I think that reggaeton has a lot to do with the visibility of the city as well. True, because let's say that reggaeton has not only produced great stars, great singers, like from here in Medellin, but [00:10:00] that reggaeton, like many other musical genres, like in salsa or, well, it exalts, well, those figures like drug trafficking, well, like a certain aesthetic as well. And so it is very attractive for many foreigners to come and get to know the city of reggaeton.And that was something that was happening, let's say, in a more organic and slower way before the pandemic. With the pandemic, it was cut off and after the pandemic, it overflowed. In other words, it happens as an overflow phenomenon. I also imagine, well, because of the desire of many people to travel and, well, to have been paralyzed in their places, and the city really wasn't prepared.I mean, I think that all that institutional effort that was made was not measured either, as to how far it could go, right? Because, although it is true that the city is extremely hospitable and welcoming, let's say that the climate is one of the things that also [00:11:00] attracts the attention of many foreigners. It is a very ideal climate, right? An eternal summer. Well, obviously there are also some structures that offer things. There are a lot of drugs, there is a lot of prostitution, right? It is a city that is also for a tourism that does not leave many good things. Also, well, you will know and you will have the knowledge, tourism even if it is not, well, this tourism of drugs and prostitution and unbridled partying. Tourism is a phenomenon that tends to be devastating, right? It is a phenomenon that makes it more expensive, then. Yes, I think that at first, it is a city that kind of wanted this to happen, but at this moment it does not know very well how to handle it.Carlos: Yes, there was also a time when the city began to take off, there was some academic tourism, because the city began to be very loud in terms of certain urban transformations [00:12:00] . This is a city that has a very powerful public services company.In Medellin, the mayor's office is the owner of a kind of local multinational that sells public services and electricity. It sells electricity to Panama and Ecuador and provides public services to some 90 municipalities in Colombia. So, the city has a really notable capacity for social investment.And then the city started to hold academic events to show off. For example, Bogota, which is the capital of Colombia, has 8,000,000 inhabitants. It has not been able to build a subway.Chris: Wow.Carlos: And the Medellin metro is celebrating its 30th anniversary. What I wanted to point out is that a very curious form of tourism has developed. And that is that foreigners come here to visit popular neighborhoods, to get into [00:13:00] Moravia, or what we call Comuna 13 here, is a very curious fact, at least because you go to a popular neighborhood where there are no comfortable services, where there are no venues, where you can see the popular show. I don't know, it's a very, very curious thing and it's incredibly overwhelming.That is to say, there are places where there is no room for people physically and they keep going, that is, there, they are, all of that is uncomfortable. But people keep going , I don't know why, but they keep coming.Sofia: It's a question we ask ourselves constantly, in fact, several friends always ask me, like, what are you here for? Why do you come here?Well, we don't understand what they're coming for, maybe because one has become naturalized. I don't know, well, everything that happens here, but one stil

How do toys shape who we become? Today, I sit down with a fascinating toy historian Chris Byrne who reveals the hidden power of play - from how different toys develop everything from relationship skills to problem - solving abilities.    We explore why true play isn't about reaching an end goal, but about embracing the pure joy of the journey. Whether you're looking to understand the art of playing alongside your kids or giving them space to explore independently, this episode will transform how you think about playtime. Join us for a rich conversation about rediscovering the magic that happens when we give ourselves permission to simply play.   After exploring the art of play with our toy historian today, I want to share something powerful with you. My book Fertile Imagination tackles a crucial truth: we can't guide our children toward imagination if we've lost touch with our own. I'll show you the exact framework I used to reawaken and strengthen this superpower – the same one that transformed both my life and my three sons'. If you're ready to rediscover your creativity and childlike zest for life, grab your copy now: https://bit.ly/fertilebook     In this episode, you will hear:    Play is a process, not a means to an end, and embracing it can reduce stress. Imagination influences every decision we make. Playing with toys helps kids develop problem-solving and relationship skills. Adults benefit from play too—it fosters creativity, joy, and innovation. Letting children lead playtime strengthens their confidence and creativity. Kids learn by doing, and unstructured play is vital for their development. In corporate settings, a playful mindset can unlock new ideas and innovation. Fear of failure limits creativity—kids don't judge play, and neither should we.   This episode is brought to you by:    Fertile Imagination: A Guide For Stretching Every Mom's Superpower For Maximum Impact – My book is available as a hard cover, paperback, and also as an audiobook. If you are on the go and wish to quickly jot down where you can purchase the book then head to: https://bit.ly/fertilebook.    If however you want to grab the audio version then head to the show notes to click the direct Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CK2ZSMLB   About Chris Bryne   Chris Byrne has spent over 35 years in the toy industry, holding major marketing and creative roles before launching Byrne Communications, a consultancy specializing in product development, strategic planning, and marketing. A passionate advocate for the power of play, he has studied its impact on child development and creativity across industries. He has appeared on major media outlets worldwide, sharing insights on toys, play, and innovation. He also co-hosts The Playground Podcast, diving deep into the toy industry's past, present, and future.   SHARE this episode with fellow moms and entrepreneurs who want to bring more creativity into their lives! Chris's insights on play, imagination, and innovation are a must-listen for anyone balancing motherhood and career growth. Let's embrace play, rediscover joy, and inspire the next generation! Supporting Resources:   Website: https://www.thetoyguy.com/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetoyguy/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thetoyguyofficial/ The Playground Podcast: Spotify & Apple Podcasts Subscribe and Review   Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.    I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms. About Fertile Imagination   You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There's flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It's time to see and seize what's beyond your gaze. Let's bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There's only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what's been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It's like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it's alert!    In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!  Advance Praise    “You'll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator    “Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on…even after the kids are in bed.” —KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money    “This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX           TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Chris: I really believe is what we play with as kids really becomes, we become a lot of that. And we had a basement in our house that had a room in it, that had a window in it. And my brothers and I would create puppet shows. And we would do that. And we would just go round up all the kids in the neighborhood and say, you have to watch this puppet show. And they did. I mean, they were good. But it was really about storytelling. It was about connection. It was about making things up and just feeling very alive in that moment, feeling very connected to who I was at that time and being able to share that with other people. 00:00:43 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're going to get to that next level in business, find the energy to keep going, and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover how mom founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood. Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out. 00:01:09 Melissa: And stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm gonna give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening. 00:01:36 Melissa: So how do toys shape who we become? Have you ever asked yourself that question as you are giving your child a toy? If that toy is going to influence their career choices ahead or the way that they are, their character. Today, I sat down with a fascinating toy historian, Chris Byrne. 00:02:04 Melissa: Now he is a 35 year plus veteran of the toy industry. He's held major marketing and creative positions earlier in his life. And he's appeared on TV talking about toys and play in the US and around the world. He's even been on the Live with Kelly and Mark show as a regular guest. And he has his own podcast, by the way, the Playground Podcast. 00:02:29 Melissa: So, Chris reveals today the hidden power of play, from how different toys develop everything from relationship skills to problem-solving abilities. We also explore why true play isn't about reaching an end goal, it's about embracing the pure joy of the journey. So, whether you're looking to understand the art of playing alongside your kids or giving them some space to explore independently, this episode is going to change how you think about playtime. So I encourage you to join us for this rich conversation about rediscovering the magic that happens when we give ourselves permission to just play. 00:03:10 Melissa: Okay, so before we jump into the conversation, I wanna just let you know that after the conversation, I would invite you to explore the art of play with my book, Fertile Imagination. Why is that relevant to you as a mom? Here's what I want you to know. It's really hard to guide our kids toward imagination if we've secretly lost touch with our own. So in my book, Fertile Imagination, I share with you the exact framework that I used in order to reawaken my imagination, play with my imagination, stretch my imagination, and strengthen what I believe to be our greatest superpower. 00:03:56 Melissa: So this framework is super simple to follow. It is guided and it is also provided in lots of really cool journaling question prompts in the book. And it's gonna be the same exact process that I used in order to really get back in touch with that little childlike spirit that all of us has, but maybe we forgot we have held quite tightly close to our hearts. 00:04:22 Melissa: So, I invite you to go ahead, rediscover your creativity, and see if you can find your childlike zest for life. Because I really believe that it's hard to teach our kids things that we may have forgotten are natural to us, and maybe came naturally to us when we were younger. So enjoy the conversation. The link to the book is available in the show notes where you're listening to this. Let me read the actual link so that you can learn more about my book, Fertile Imagination. 00:04:53 Melissa: It is a bit.ly link. So it is bit.ly/fertilebook. You can absolutely grab a copy right there of Fertile Imagination. If you wanted the audio version that is available exclusively via Amazon. So go ahead and check out the show notes for that link. Thank you again. And I hope you enjoy the conversation and let me know what you think at the end, I will share with you my top three takeaways that you can apply to your immediate mom life. Thank you so much. 00:05:28 Melissa: Chris Byrne. I am so excited to have you here on the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. How are you? 00:05:35 Chris: I am very well. I'm so excited to be with you. Thank you so much for the invitation. 00:05:40 Melissa: I couldn't get enough of your TED Talk. I was like, oh my gosh, he's not just a toy historian. He's like a toy psychologist. I loved it. I loved it. So welcome to the show. Chris, I want to just start with the big, big question on my mind. Help me understand from your perspective, decades in the industry, learning about the art of play, like what is an imagination to you and do you consider it a superpower? 00:06:12 Chris: Well, I absolutely consider our imagination our superpower. It is the one thing that, really one of the many things that really define us as human beings. Nothing happens in our world that doesn't start in the imagination. It can be, what do I want for lunch? Or what do I want to be when I grow up? Or should I marry this person? Or should I have children? 00:06:34 Chris: Or whatever it is because we begin in the imagination and other kinds of animals, you just put food in front of them and they eat, it's instinctual. But for us, it's not- as humans, it's not just instinctual. We literally create our worlds on a daily basis and that starts in the imagination. 00:06:54 Melissa: I agree. And it's interesting because as a fully grown adult, I would say that when I was writing my book, Fertile Imagination, and I see it as like a superpower for moms who are technically adults. I feel like it's a topic that is seldom discussed amongst adults. Like, is this something that you are noticing? Or maybe, you know, people that have that childlike quality because of your industry? What's your take on imagination, the art of play, and being an adult? 00:07:30 Chris: Well, I think all of those are really critical to who we are, because play is really the act of asking a question, what if? What if I do this? What if I, you know, as an adult in can be, what if do whatever? For me, as a kid is like, what if I jump off this wall? What's gonna happen? You know, but we grow up and we have a little bit more, more adult kind of perceptions, if you will, for that. And it really is like trying to spin out a scenario. 00:08:06 Chris: So if I am going to take a new job, for example, what is that gonna be like? Who am I gonna be working with? And we begin to develop stories around things in our imagination. And those stories are very important because we really can't take action to make things real until we've imagined them as a concept. 00:08:28 Melissa: Yeah. And so, okay. So this is something that I'm struggling with right now. This is like real time, I need some help, get me unclogged sort of stuff. So this idea of having a story in my mind and having a vision I want to make real, the vision side of it is so hard right now for me to see, mainly because it's like, there's things that I've envisioned in the past, but I haven't made happen. So I don't know kind of like how to play myself to a solution or a vision or just kind of like, think with a little less of like the past, you know, like hindering this vision. 00:09:15 Chris: Right. It's a great, it's a great thing. I mean, I'm sorry you're going through that, but I think that if you look at how a child plays, right, when they get an idea and they don't sit there and think, well, if I just do this or I do this or I do that, it's going to be fun, right? They come, that's not fun. I'm done. I'm on to the next thing. And I think as adults, we should do that too. If something is becoming too much effort, if it's not working, then we just drop it and go on to the next thing. 00:09:47 Chris: And I don't think there's any harm or foul in that. And I think that when you look at a kid who is imagining and playing, they're not judging the play as they're doing it. They're looking at well, where did this take me and where should I go next from it? And it's a much freer, kind of more peaceful way to go through the world. 00:10:08 Chris: I mean, I talk about things that I've done that turned out to be mistakes. And I call them I said, well, that was a once in a lifetime experience. As in I don't have to do that again. I learned the lesson. 00:10:20 Melissa: Yeah. And I think, you know, approaching any problem from that perspective releases that pressure to get it right the first time. And it gives you like the levity to get back up and just be like, okay, let's go at it again. And I imagine like, cause I noticed also, and I know that this side of it might be a little bit more conventional thinking, but like, you actually bring these ideas into corporate settings, you know, the art of play. 00:10:51 Melissa: And I'm like, if I think about the different environments where it's not okay to play. It's not okay to make mistakes. Like how do you sell that idea of we're just playing right now and don't get frustrated if it works or not in like a corporate setting, you know? 00:11:11 Chris: Well, one of the things that's so interesting in a corporate setting is people come into a meeting or a brainstorming and they're focused on one specific outcome, right? So if you're focused on an outcome, you kind of end-run the process of play because play is a process. Play is asking, what if, you know, let's go down this road and let's go down this road and see what it is. So I always encourage people to be as off the wall as possible. I will give you an example that almost got me fired. 00:11:43 Melissa: This is a good one, okay. 00:11:44 Chris: And nobody will like it, but I was working with Ideal, with Ideal Toy Company and we had the Shirley Temple doll. And nobody, we had these porcelain $400 Shirley Temple dolls and Shirley Temple dolls were huge in the '30s and still with doll collectors, but nobody was buying them. And we thought, how do we get rid of them? And I said, well, why don't we put them on the QE2 and use them as skeet? Like people can launch the doll. 00:12:11 Chris: So the brand manager got really mad at me. And told me I was inappropriate. But as we talked more, we ended up doing a doll collecting event with Cunard that actually turned out to be good. So the idea is, go out there and play off the wall in a safe environment, obviously. So the idea of creating an environment where it's safe to play, where it's safe to have that sort of impulsive childish response to a situation is okay. 00:12:45 Chris: We would never have promoted that in a corporate sense. But the idea that we were just playing with ideas and being silly. That opens the pathway to being really creative and to seeing what could actually work. And then once you get that, you put the action steps in place to get to the next step. 00:13:05 Melissa: Yeah, I think just, you know, going crazy and just really trying to break out of conventional thinking and our very logical pathways in our mind, it's like first we do this, that, the other. It's almost like some sentences, right? And the way we like greet each other, it's so like rehearsed that to come up with something like, oh my gosh, I love your outfit. You know, it reminds me of like a toy soldier or something. It would be like way off, but it would start rapport, I think. Rapport or like, you know, people would be like, kind of weirded out. But I've always tried that. How can I not weird people out? 00:13:44 Chris: Well, it's, right, well, that's always a question, but I don't really worry about that too much. But I think that one of the things, again, as I was saying about process, but also getting over fear, right? As adults, we think, well, what if I get it wrong? Children, when they play, if you watch them play, they don't worry about getting it wrong. They just think, well, that didn't work. That didn't do what I wanted it to do. Let me do something else. They haven't built a hierarchy of judgment and really being unkind to themselves about doing something wrong. 00:14:19 Chris: And if you embrace play, there's really no kind of, you can't be wrong when you're playing, right? Some things may be practical, but there's imagination and there's spinning things out, things that might never become real, but then things that actually could practically become real. And the process of getting to that point is actually pretty joyful. 00:14:42 Melissa: And I think we could all use some more joy these days, that's for sure. Adults and children alike. So let's see, let's go back in time. So let's go back to the time where you recall maybe playing with a toy and feeling like an insane amount of joy. If you can think about, you know, your one moment or one of the moments, I'm curious to hear your perspective. 00:15:06 Chris: Well, it's really interesting because one of the things that I really believe is what we play with as kids really becomes, we become a lot of that. And we had a basement in our house that had a room in it. They had a window in it. And my brothers and I would create puppet shows. And we would do that. And we would just go round up all the kids in the neighborhood and say, you have to watch this puppet show. And they did. They were good. But it was really about storytelling. It was about connection. It was about making things up and just feeling very alive in that moment, feeling very connected to who I was at that time and being able to share that with other people. 00:15:52 Melissa: Wow, so that's interesting. So it's funny because I feel like maybe I was, because I was an only child for most of my upbringing, like a lot of the things I did were just on my own and I had to really figure out how to make something out of what was around me. So let me share like this one thing that I would do to just pass the time. And of course, like in the background, like there was like maybe Magnum P.I. playing or, you know, name- Hawaii Five-0, whatever my mom was into. 00:16:25 Melissa: So I would go to the closet and I would take out a shoebox. And I would proceed to create like a scene. So they're called dioramas. I looked it up because I was like, this is a weird thing that I just kept doing all the time. And then I would create little figurines and put like little slots, you know, on the sides and move the little carboards in and out, you know. And I was like, okay, I have to ask Chris, like, what does that say about me? I have no idea. 00:16:56 Chris: Well, I mean, I would say it sort of starts you as a storyteller, which is what you're doing today. You're telling stories and you're facilitating other people telling stories. But it's also, I mean, especially for children at that age, it's about trying to make sense of the world and the stories they tell us, like trying to make sense of relationships. I'll tell you another story. 00:17:18 Chris: Years ago, we were playing with some kids with Barbie dolls. And they had all these different Barbie dolls. And one kid took all the blonde Barbie dolls and they were making fun of the brunette Barbie doll. And we were just watching this and going, yeah, this is somebody who is working out a reality in their life. 00:17:38 Chris: And that is really what play is, because even as she, in this case it was a girl, became powerful in that situation, was able to stand up for herself, you're giving your brain the sense that you can actually do this. If you do it vicariously, you've already had that experience on some level. So that when you confront that in real life, it might be easier, or you might have a solution. 00:18:03 Chris: I mean, how many times do you go into a situation, an interview or whatever, and you've rehearsed what you're gonna say? And your brain already knows that. It's like visual, what they talk about in sports about visualizing, you know, the outcome. You know, you're already having that experience, which is so cool. Cause our brain doesn't know the difference sometimes between reality and what we imagine. 00:18:24 Melissa: I love that. I love that. And so, yeah, who knows what I was trying to work out? There are a lot of things going on in my home. I'll tell you that much. But yeah, I think, you know, that idea though, just like trying to work things out that, you know, maybe you don't have that first person experience with, but like doing it through the use of a toy. Have you noticed at a curiosity any sort of changes with the dynamics between toys and kids now that there's like AI sort of toys out there? 00:19:01 Chris: There are so many different types of play experiences. What we were just talking about is more traditional doll or action figure or stuffed animal kind of play where a child is really doing that. Some of the other stuff with AI or licensed space like Star Wars, Marvel, all of that is beginning to understand yourself as a capable human being. 00:19:23 Chris: So for example, if I'm a superhero, I can feel. I can have the feeling of what it's like to be a superhero. And I always say, if your life is all about mom is in control, eat your peas, get in the minivan, do your homework, suddenly if you're a superhero, that's very empowering. And then empowering as an individual to be able to confront the world in a different way because you're empowered. So it's very classical, the kind of totemistic idea that we take on the powers of the superheroes. 00:19:59 Chris: And even though we're not gonna fly, we're not gonna lift, we're not gonna pick up a truck, we're not gonna do that, you have the emotional sense of capability, which is really what it's all about. 00:20:10 Melissa: That's interesting. I think, I mean, I don't know. Now that I think about my kids, for example, their toy experiences these days is really YouTube videos and playing video games and things like that. And I wonder if that's also along the same thread of what you just said, feeling the different capabilities like running fast or jumping high, things like that. 00:20:37 Chris: I think definitely. I mean, it's, you know, YouTube videos are like today's cartoons, right, on some level. You know, I grew up watching cartoons and, and it was- so they're looking at who are my role models and who are, you know, somebody's doing something. Oh, I'd like to try that. And, you know, or oh, wow, they tried that, I'm not gonna do that, but what would it be like if I did this kind of thing? 00:21:03 Chris: So I think that it's a window on the world and people are always concerned about screen time and I'm never concerned about screen time so much as I'm concerned about what's on the screen. So that is what's being modeled through the YouTube things, things that you as a mom or a parent want your child to be consuming because it can be very supportive or it can be kind of dangerous depending on what kids have access to. 00:21:30 Melissa: Yeah. And it's so interesting what you're sharing right now, because I mean, I had Saturday morning cartoons, for example, and I ate a lot of cereals with all the dyes and all these other things. And my kids literally tell me, they're like, oh, we want to have Saturday morning cartoons just like you. But of course, it is that YouTube thing. And I limit it to SpongeBob. Like, that's appropriate for their ages right now. 00:21:54 Melissa: But I think that's so interesting, this whole idea of rehearsal and visualization and imagination. I wonder because when it comes to toys and just the way that they've changed through the years, how did, for example, Tickle Me Elmo, how did that support people in terms of capabilities or anything? I'm curious. 00:22:22 Chris: Well, Tickle Me Elmo was kind of an outlier in that, you know, in terms of classical play. Tickle Me Elmo became a fad, right? And fads take on a life of their own. They kind of jump the shark or jump from the toy industry because Tickle Me Elmo started as an entertaining little preschool doll for preschoolers, infants and preschoolers. Suddenly it becomes this whole cultural phenomenon that everybody has to have. 00:22:50 Chris: It becomes, so it's a fad, so it becomes kind of a marker in time. So if you were around for Tickle Me Elmo, and you remember that, it's sort of a springboard to your memories of what the latter part of 1996 was about, because that's when Tickle Me Elmo was really huge. So that's not really kind of play in the way that I talk about it a lot. That becomes a cultural event. And my other joke about Tickle Me Elmo, Tickle Me Elmo was $40 really, basically, or more. You know, you can have a Tickle Me Elmo and be really cool for a lot less than you can have a Birkin bag. 00:23:26 Melissa: Wow, yeah, that's true. That is true. It's so funny, this conversation just takes me down the whole nostalgic route. Like I'm thinking about my Steve Urkel joke pull doll. Do you remember that one? 00:23:39 Chris: Yeah, yeah, of course. 00:23:41 Melissa: Yeah, so anyways, I'm totally like aging myself right now. I'm like, oh, I had Steve Urkel and I had Popples and all the like. What do you think, you know, nostalgia? Let's talk about that. Because I feel like a lot of marketers use that, you know, in order to kind of like pull forth a certain generation, let's say. And I even feel like at a supermarket, like I'm like, I think they know who their shoppers are with the music. But let's talk about nostalgia. 00:24:09 Melissa: Like, and again, thinking about more quote unquote modern toys, you know, like. And back to like these like electronics, like do you think that it'll be the same sort of calling card, I think is the right phrase? Like when someone starts saying, oh, like, let's say 10 years from now, you know, what's the name of the- Stumble Guys? Like, do you think that people will say like a certain like thing on video games and it'll have the same emotional pull as like Tickle Me Elmo, Popples, or Cabbage Patch? 00:24:41 Chris: It's hard to know. The thing about nostalgia is it's really for adults, right? Nostalgia is for people looking back. When you're three and four, you're not nostalgic for much. You're not remembering much. Maybe you remember your pull ups, right? When you had your pull ups. But you don't, you're not really nostalgic for something because you haven't been around that much. 00:25:03 Chris: The challenge from a toy marketing standpoint is relying on nostalgia to sell toys. Because I mean, yes, there's a certain level of you as a mom had My Little Pony or Littlest Pet Shop or any of those huge hits, Masters of the Universe. And you want to share those with your child. But for it to engage your child's imagination, there has to be something authentic to them. It's not just, mom liked this, so I'm going to like it too. That doesn't really work. 00:25:31 Chris: Look at Barbie and how Barbie's been redefined over the years, because Barbie always reflects the culture at any given time. So in 1959, she could be a fashion model or a bride, right? Pretty much, those are the Barbie options. Today, there are hundreds of careers and there's hundreds of abilities. And Barbie, the Barbie line looks like the world kids are growing up in, just as it did in 1959. It's just a more diverse and broader world with more possibility for girls and women today than it was in 1959. 00:26:08 Melissa: So when it comes to the toy industry, who's actually using their imagination to come up with like what to make for the future? Like, is it a combination of kids and adults? Is it like who's actually imagining like right now, like in the Mattels, et cetera, you know, what's coming down the line like 10 years from now? It's going to be hot and cool. And like, how do you how do you imagine something like that? 00:26:36 Chris: Well, it's hard. I mean, I think I think it's like, you know, my crystal ball usually needs a shot of Windex so I could get a clearer sense. But it's more an art than a science, that's for sure. And it's looking at trends. It's looking at how are kids playing, how are they interacting, how are they socializing, what is fun to them, and what's going on in the culture at large. Because the toy industry always reflects the culture. 00:27:03 Chris: We're always reflecting, because kids, you know, most healthy kids, they aspire to being big. They wanna grow up and they want the things like their parents have. So back in the, you know, in the early 2000s when cell phones came out, you saw tons of preschool cell phones, right? You don't see that so much anymore because the preschoolers have a real cellphone. 00:27:25 Chris: But you see things that will allow them to feel like they are part of the culture and they are growing up into it and that they are older and perhaps more capable than they really are because that's an important imaginative tool to help in the maturation process. 00:27:41 Melissa: That's fascinating. So that's true. It was definitely a lot of like, I don't know, mommy and me things. Like you see them with like a cash register or like a Target cart, right? The plastic little one, right? Cause their parent is shopping at Target. And so I wonder because it's like, there's some habits that as a parent, like maybe we wanna shake off ourselves, but we're inadvertently doing a lot. 00:28:06 Melissa: So like the cellphone one, I'm like, oh God, yeah, mommy has a cellphone and now her child does too. And it's like, how can I stop? And it's a reinforcement, but I'm wondering, okay, so in terms of the future and in terms of toys, have you ever done or seen any sort of things where the mom was playing with the child versus the child was playing by themselves? Like any differences there? 00:28:31 Melissa: Because I would love to just kind of inspire a listener right now to consider the fact that actually getting lost in play with their child can be even more beneficial than just having your child play with a toy to the side and you're doing something completely different. 00:28:52 Chris: I think that is critically important. One of the things that we're talking to parents of Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids. And Gen Alpha was born 2010 to this year. And one of the things that parents talk about is some of the best part of their day is when they're playing with kids. And what I always suggest is that if you're playing with your kid, especially if they're a preschooler, let the child run the play and you respond. Don't tell them, oh, look at this, oh, do that. 00:29:24 Chris: And you don't have to teach, it doesn't have to teach them anything, right? It doesn't have to teach. Kids are going to learn. So really letting that child's imagination drive the experience because, you know, I think every parent has had the experience where your child comes up with something and you go where did that come from? 00:29:45 Melissa: 100%. All the time. 00:29:47 Chris: And it's because they're sponges and they're listening to their absorbing everything and then they're processing it to their childlike brains or their childish brains. So I think that letting the child do that, but being there and being in communication is really important. 00:30:02 Chris: When I was growing up and maybe when you were too, we had three different worlds. We had kid world where no adults came in and the kids were doing that. We had adult world where we weren't allowed, where the parents would do that. And then there was family world, which is dinner and vacations and being yelled at about your grades or whatever that was. 00:30:21 Chris: But those three worlds don't really seem to exist anymore. And parents and kids are much more integrated in one another's lives. I think that's an outcome of COVID. It's actually a very positive outcome from COVID. Because you as mom and dad, have fun with your kids. Come on. It's, again, back to the idea of process rather than outcome. They don't have to become an expert ball player. They don't have to become an expert thing at times. They can actually just learn and play and discover the world and share those discoveries with you. 00:30:51 Melissa: Yeah, I love that. And I think it's an opportunity for someone that has to think a lot in life and feels the stresses of life to kind of let go and just stop thinking and just going with what is. Be present. You know, be totally present. 00:31:12 Chris: Be totally present and just be open to what it is. It's trying not to, as I was saying, it doesn't have to have a definitive outcome. And the one thing I think we've lost track of, often in our culture right now, is the idea of embracing process. It's really okay to make mistakes. It's really okay to try something, as long as you get up and start again. 00:31:36 Chris: I mean, how many times have you, I was talking about, for me, I learned to ski late. And I'm a really mediocre skier. I'm enthusiastic, but I'm not good. And I had somebody who was teaching me and he said, Chris, eventually I was scared. Eventually you're gonna have to point your skis down the hill. So I did it, I fell a lot, I did that, but I was so eager to learn that I'd fall and get up again. 00:32:04 Chris: I had to learn how to get up, but that's the thing that I think is, you know, if you have an idea of where you'd like to go but embrace the process on the way there because who knows what you're going to learn and what you're going to discover. 00:32:16 Melissa: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think that's the key to any goal. It's just you have to really fall in love with the process as you head towards the vision the goal, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish. And I also love the fact that, you know, as with play it's like there's something that's so pure about it, you know, when left on unmanipulated. 00:32:40 Melissa: It's like as a parent, we might have this desire to like educate our kids up to wazoo with regards to like every educational toy out there and every moment with we're with them, we're teaching them another language or coding or something. But I think, you know, just being open to a little bit, you know, unstructured play and that time with your child has so many benefits. And I think, you know, Chris, the work that you're doing just stay connected to like play as just being fun and okay and positive is is really helpful. Thank you so much for the work that you've done. 00:33:18 Chris: Thanks. I mean, I really do think that it as I mentioned, joy before it really does open the door to being joyful and going, oh, wow, that's fun, you know? I mean, when was the last time you said, oh, wow, that's really fun. 00:33:31 Melissa: 100%. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Chris. So where can listeners continue to learn about their favorite toys, about you, about what's up ahead in the toy industry? 00:33:42 Chris: You can come see the toyguy.com. That's probably the best way. And then on Instagram, I'm thetoyguy. So, yeah. And I post a lot of pictures from things like toy fairs and different things and things that are fun for me and that make me giggle. 00:33:58 Melissa: Thank you so much, Chris. Have an awesome one. 00:34:01 Chris: Thank you. 00:34:03 Melissa: My three takeaways for this conversation that you can absolutely take to the bank and apply in your home are, first, this idea that playing with our kids has benefits for our kids, but also for us, especially if you're a super busy mom. It helps put you in the immediate present moment. So that's a big, big perk right there. 00:34:25 Melissa: Second is this idea that it's all about the process as opposed to the final answer. And that's something that I know is hard to think about when you're constantly thinking about what's next in your life. So thinking about play as something that you're doing and it's a process instead of to put together that Lego piece might be a great shift in your thinking and could relieve you of the stress and pressure of getting things right. 00:34:54 Melissa: Second, no, actually my third point here, my third point would be that in terms of the benefits of playing, I hadn't realized how psychologically deep some of these toys touch the minds of our kids. So the simple fact that we are thinking about, you know, working out relationships when you're doing a diorama, which may have been the case for me personally or maybe you're thinking about whether or not you have skills like a superhero, which was something that Chris shared, I just never thought about how psychologically interesting playing with a toy could be. 00:35:32 Melissa: So you might want to reconsider this idea that playing with a toy is just a way to distract your child or keep them focused on something other than breaking things. There could be real psychological value and also something for you to just consider psychological opportunity when it comes to the choices behind the toys we put in front of our kids. 00:36:00 Melissa: So I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Again, this episode was brought to you by my book, Fertile Imagination. I am excited about it. It's a guide for stretching every mom's superpower for maximum impact. Your imagination is your superpower. That is why I had Chris on the show today. I encourage you to check out the show notes where you could actually purchase the book and let me know that you did. I am always available for conversation and any questions. Thank you so much and I appreciate you. And until next Tuesday.

Join host Carol Pankow in this thought-provoking episode of Manager Minute as she sits down with VR fiscal powerhouses Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan, and Sarah Clardy. Together, they unpack the pressing fiscal issues shaping the vocational rehabilitation (VR) landscape, including: ·  Navigating fiscal forecasting challenges · Addressing technology gaps · Strengthening collaboration between program and fiscal teams The conversation highlights the vital role of policies, training, and institutional knowledge in sustaining VR programs while anticipating future shifts, such as technological advancements, fiscal constraints, and potential WIOA reauthorization. Don't miss this episode, packed with actionable insights and expert reflections to keep VR programs thriving!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Katie: I'm really excited for that tool to be shared, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: This job takes constant attention to detail in what is happening. It is always going to be work.   Chris: More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Allison: One of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA.   Sarah: I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are my colleagues Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan and Sarah Clardy. So this might be a little bit of calamity for our listeners, but we're going to do it. So how y'all doing today?   Sarah: Great   Chris: Great.   Allison: Good.   Katie: Wonderful.   Carol: Awesome to hear it. Well, we have had quite a journey on the QM for the past four years. The fiscal focus was a new aspect of the grant, and we are so grateful to then Commissioner Mark Schultz for realizing that TA in this area was an essential element to the work. And since we're in this final year of the grant, we wanted to have a chance to visit together, share our insights with the listeners into the whole fiscal picture across the VR program, and discuss our perceptions and perspectives. So buckle up, folks, and we're going to dig in. So I want to start with how you each found your way to VR. And I'm going to start with Chris to talk about your journey into VR.   Chris: Well thanks, Carol. Mine's a little bit different than most people. I did not start in VR. I have a very different background. All fiscal for the most part. But I came to work at a fiscal state unit and learned about VR there. Loved it, loved it, loved it. And then was kind of asked to be part of this Ta team and couldn't say no because it's just an incredible program and it's a little complicated. So being able to help the states understand it better is what brought me to this team.   Carol: Well, not you, and you're being modest now. Tell them about like a little bit more of your background because you have an interesting educational background and all of that.   Chris: Yeah, I do. So I'm an environmental engineer by trade. Worked in that field for a while. Learned that sampling sludge was not a cool thing to be doing. So went to work for a small business that was just starting on Department of Defense World. Loved all the fiscal part of that. Went back to school and got my MBA and have been doing fiscal stuff ever since. So yeah, it's a long road that brought me here, but I'm happy I took it.   Carol: Yeah, we're glad you're here. How about you, Miss Allison?   Allison: Well, it's kind of hard to believe that I have over 30 years in this VR journey, and it actually started out in the field as a VR technician, and I just fell in love with the mission and purpose of VR. So I quickly changed my direction to be a VR counselor, and then that evolved to other promotions and positions throughout the year, where I ended up being director of both Kentucky Blind Agency and then moved to Florida as the General Agency Director. And when the VR TKM opportunity came about, I was ready for a change, especially after being a director through the pandemic and through the implementation of WIOA. I was looking forward to just a new opportunity, new learning areas, so this has been a great jump for me. I've enjoyed it very much.   Carol: Why don't you tell them too about your other gig with NRLI a little bit. We'll make a plug there.   Allison: Yeah. So part of the VRTAC-QM is the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute through San Diego State University. I have the honor of continuing Fred McFarland's legacy, who began this program about 25 years ago. And it is a program that is building the future leaders in the vocational rehabilitation field. And it's been a joy to see these leaders be promoted throughout their careers. Being stepping up, having an interest at that national level, the issues that are facing VR. So it is definitely a part of my job with QM that I hold near and dear to my heart.   Carol: Yeah, it's good stuff, I love it NRLI of our favorite things to participate in when we get to do training. So Katie, over to you next.   Katie: Well, my journey with VR started when my brother was receiving VR services, and he actually is who inspired me to go and get my bachelor's degree in psychology and work in social services. That led me to Department of Workforce Services, where I spent 13 years in various roles and capacities, which ultimately led me back to VR.   Carol: Awesome sauce. And last but not least, Sarah Clardy.   Sarah: So I started out about 24 years ago out of college. I was working in banking full time and going to school full time, and had an opportunity to come on with a state and Missouri vocational rehabilitation, had an opening for an assistant director of accounting and procurement. They had some systems and processes that were a little out of whack and needed some help with reorganizing pretty much the whole accounting structure. So I came over at that time and started in with Missouri, and then spent 20 years there and got to spend half of that time in the field directly with our field staff and counselors and really take this program to heart, and then had an opportunity four years ago to join the VRTAC-QM. I had said for a long time we needed technical assistance in the fiscal realm for years and years. I was thrilled that Mark Schultz saw the vision and made it happen.   Carol: Good stuff. Well, now we're going to enter the danger zone because I have some questions for you all. Not exactly sure how this is going to go, but we are going to do our best. So y'all jump in when you want. So what has been your biggest realization or aha moment since you started with the QM. And Allison, I'm going to have you kick us off and then other folks can jump in.   Allison: Honestly, Carol, there's been a lot of those aha moments for me over the last, you know, almost three years with the Technical Assistance Center since my experience in VR started in the field and I was a counselor, kind of the program side is where my comfort level is or my knowledge and experience. So when I joined the fiscal team there, definitely there was a lot of those aha moments, mainly a lot of the things that I did not know or did not realize even as a director when I came over. So one of those aha's is the director. Even though I received these beautiful monthly budget reports for my fiscal staff, even though I had a leadership team that we reviewed budgets with, understanding the fiscal requirements in and out, the uniform grant guidance and all the regulations. And, EDGAR, all of that, I think, is critical for any director or their leadership team to have knowledge of. And that was definitely one of my aha moments. And one of those things I go back, wow, if I could go back and be a director, I would be a lot smarter after being on the technical assistance side. And like I said, there's been a lot of those aha moments. I could share tons of them, but a couple other ones that jump out is just that critical need for that program side of the House and the fiscal side of the House, to always be communicating and always making sure they're checking with each other. On whether it's a new implementation, whether it's expenses, contracts, doesn't matter. There needs to be that collaboration happening at that level. And then probably the technology challenges is another one of those constant aha moments in the year that we're in and how reliant we are on technology. I am still amazed that there is not technology out there that will do what VR needs it to do, right off the shelf.   Carol: Amen, sister. You said it all. No, but I'm sure there's people that want to say some more.   Chris: I found it interesting when I came over that not every single, not a single state has it right. I thought that there would be more that are fully knowledgeable and are running with it and doing all the great things they are doing, the great things. They just don't have 100% right.   Carol: You are making me laugh with this because I'm just going to say I have to jump in on that. Sarah and I right away, in the beginning, anytime we had met with RSA we learned something new, we're like, uh, I gotta call back to Minnesota, tell them, because we realized, like, hey, we thought we were sort of doing it right, but we all realized things. We went, uh, yeah, we had a little slight misstep on that.   Katie: I would agree with that. Like, we came from a state that was in an intensive agreement. And, you know, I was like, man, we really got it wrong. But then, you know, it's a huge learning curve and there's a lot of people that are putting in their best effort, and they're still just a few things that aren't quite right.   Chris: Absolutely.   Katie: Another realization that I had was we have this table of contents for a grant management manual that we send out to agencies. And when I received it in Wyoming, I was intimidated by all the things that needed to be included. But my aha moment was when you break that down into individual items and you really look at it, it's things that are already in place, the policies and procedures that you're already working on. It's just finding a way to get that on paper and put it into some sort of policy and procedure and internal control. So realizing that states have the capacity to do that, just figuring out how was an aha moment for me.   Sarah: You know, when I came in, I was thinking back to 2017 and RSA came out with guidance on, I'm going to say it, Period of Performance. And it dominated our whole agency for a good nine months, trying to understand the guidance, looking at systems. We had to do a whole overhaul with the way we looked at obligations, just we spent a massive amount of time and effort to right size our systems, internal controls and all of that because prior to performance sets the beat for all of financial within a VR program. So coming into the QM, I really assumed that more agencies knew of Period of Performance and had gone through at least similar steps, or at least had internal conversations. And what I found was completely the opposite. Somehow a lot of folks missed the memo and that work hadn't been done. And of course, we've been running Fred Flintstone style, trying to help agencies get up to snuff. So that's the piece. I think that's been the most interesting. I think for me.   Carol: I think along that same vein for me was really that realization states are more different than I thought because I figured we all had the same information. We all kind of operated sort of the same. You might have your own internal systems, but I remember, Sarah, you and I talking that first year just going like, oh my gosh, everybody is organized so completely differently. They approach their work so completely differently. There isn't just one size fits all. Like, hey, you should do it this way. And like, everybody can do that. Uh uh, it is like having an IPE for how the fiscal is managed. Individualized we need to give very individualized TA. So what do you guys view as the number one challenge facing our programs nationwide? And Sarah, I'm going to have you start us with that.   Sarah: Okay? I'm going to say it I think Allison said it earlier. We are lacking in the technology space. I think a couple of things we have, the pendulum has swung to the other direction and before it was spend, spend, spend, a lot of agencies made adjustments so that they were increasing their spending. The large carryover balances weren't so large. Now my concern is how are we looking at our finances to see if we can still sustain that. And in order to get accurate projections and for leadership teams to have the conversations about where they stand financially, we have to have technology systems in place that are reliable, are tracking period of performance, can provide those fiscal calculations in terms of where we stand on all of the different requirements, so that we have a constant pulse on where do we stand as an agency. And I liken it to being in private industry and a CEO knowing at all times how much does it cost to make the widget? How many widgets are we making and what amount of time? All of those kinds of things. And I feel like in that space right now, we have agencies that are trying to figure that out, and we have some that are in a very delicate position, and it can cause a lot of catastrophe and crisis if that's not solidified. So really, it goes back to having reliable technology that will take care of all of that. And that includes our CMS, our Case Management Systems space. A lot of our vendors are struggling in that Period of Performance area, and we're not there yet. We have a lot more work to do.   Carol: Well, it's like a $4 billion industry, you know, and I feel like we're still using an abacus or something in some cases for tracking the money. It is the most insane thing I have ever seen.   Allison: And, you know, related to that technology challenge, though, is knowing that, that challenge is there, knowing that the technology is not correct. I think what adds to the complexity of that is the fiscal staff or the just the staff within the VR agency. They lack the fiscal knowledge enough to know if their system is working correctly or not, or know how to go in and make the adaptations needed to assist them. And that's a challenge within itself.   Chris: And I will piggyback right on that, because the thing I think that we've struggled with is we have lost so much institutional knowledge that people don't stay in jobs like they used to. And so if these policies and procedures are not written down, you get new people coming in, they don't know what they don't know. And if the technology is not working right, they don't know that that's not something that they can handle. So it's a lack of that long time knowledge that used to be in this program.   Katie: Yeah, Chris, that is exactly where I was going as well, is the loss of staff and institutional knowledge is huge, and it really highlights the importance of getting policies and procedures in place and not waiting till that person has their foot out the door and is ready to head out to make sure that you're getting that in writing. You know, succession planning and really building up success in the team.   Carol: I think for me, one of the things I see, because I love that whole organizational structure and non-delegable responsibilities, I love that area. I think one of the biggest challenges facing the program is the whole shift in how things are organized between if you're in a designated state unit within a designated state agency, and that centralization we have seen of all the fiscal functions along with IT and HR and all of it, but I feel like VR has lost control. And so as these services are centralized, and not that they can't be, but that they get centralized to a point that the VR program has lost complete input control direction. I mean, you've got directors being told you can't spend anything over $5. It has to go through 40 layers. You can't hire anybody. Staff cannot travel to go see customers like all of that. If we can't fix this structure of how things are put into play in each of these states, I really see kind of the demise of the program. As we see things get buried, the program gets buried down within these big agencies. The lack of control ends up leading to problems with them and being able to carry out the mission. And it's really hard to get a handle on that. And I know Congress has given, you know, this leeway so that states can organize like they want. But boy, the way they're organized right now, it's pretty tough.   Allison: It's a double edged sword when you think about it, because you're probably like me Carol, as former directors, we wanted more money going into the consumer services. We wanted it going to support our customers. We wanted to find ways to reduce any kind of administrative type expenses so that that money can go there when the centralized functions were really being pushed at the state levels. In my mind at first, I will say this, at first I saw, yes, this is a benefit because we're going to have these shared services, we're going to be able to spend more of our funds on our customers. And I still somewhat agree with that approach because it is a cost savings. But what has to happen, though, is that balance, what you talked about, the balance where VR still has control over the decisions or they are included in those decisions and the restrictions that have been put in place has to be lifted. But I do see the benefits of those shared services as long as the structure gets set up right.   Carol: Right. And that's been few and far between.   Allison: That needs a national model.   Carol: It does. And that's been a problem. I mean, if there's anything anyone can work on, little congressional assistance in that or whatever, you know, getting some of that rewritten, how that looks.   Sarah: Well, and I came from an agency that was able to retain an entire unit of 13-ish folks when all of those consolidations were occurring because within our Department of Education, our commissioner understood the complexities of our award and knew that if all of those positions rolled up to a department level, they weren't going to be able to support the program and were able to coordinate with our state leadership. And it served the program very, very well. So I think we have a little bit to be desired still in that space to get agencies the support that they need 100%.   Carol: So what has been your favorite thing to work on or accomplishment in your role? And Katie, I'm going to kick that to you to start us off.   Katie: Well, I've really enjoyed my role here with the QM. There's a lot of things that I enjoy, but the task that I've enjoyed the most is really having the ability to dig into the new uniform grant guidance that went into effect October 1st of 2020. For one of the things that I did while doing that was I took the old uniform grant guidance and the new ones and did a side by side where all of the things that were taken out were redlined and all of the things that were added were highlighted, and I'm really excited for that tool to be shared with the agencies right now. That's with RSA to get the stamp of approval, but I've used that tool already to help update all of our things on the website and all the tools that we're sharing with everyone, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: I love that tool, Katie, so much because even when we were down doing to last week and some of the just the nuance pieces that came out, when you're reading it and you go, okay, that language did change. Like there is a slightly nuanced variance to this that I hadn't completely grasped until you see it in the red and the yellow, and it all highlighted up. I mean, it was pretty nice.   Katie: Yeah, they did a lot of plain language changes, which is really evident when you look at the side by side.   Chris: I'll jump in here and tell you what my favorite thing is. And it's when we were working with a state intensively and, you know, we've been working with them for a long time, and you get to know them really well and you understand their environment and how things work, and they come to you and say something really profound, like, I was watching this training the other day and they got this wrong, and they got this wrong and they got this wrong. It is like a proud parent moment. When you go, they understand what the program is supposed to be doing, and they understand when other people not necessarily are getting it wrong, but mostly they're able to recognize what's not absolutely correct. And it just makes you feel like, oh, we have come so far.   Carol: It's like fly, little bird, you're flying.   Chris: Yes.   Allison: That's probably one of my favorite parts too, Chris, is the state work that we've done and how you get to know these state people. There's so many amazing VR staff across the country, and their hearts are all in the right place, and they want to do good. That's what I've enjoyed is getting to know these people better, broadening my network as well because I learn from them. But just being that resource I do like, I'm one of those weird people that likes digging into the laws and regs and finding where is that gray, vague area that we can interpret a little better. So part of the TA work, you know, really digging into some of the laws and some regulatory guidance I've enjoyed as well.   Carol: I have a story I love to share. I was having a breakdown probably a year ago, Sarah's laughing at me, I had a breakdown. You know, you're providing TA to state you're so ingrained with them, especially when they have a corrective action plan, you feel like you're part of them. I always say we, you know, when we're talking because I feel like I'm part of their team and we've been working on a particular piece of it, and nothing that we sent in was anything RSA wanted. All I knew was that this was not what they wanted, but we couldn't exactly figure out what they wanted. And it was driving me crazy. And I'd called Sarah and I said, I think I have to quit being a TA provider because I suck at this. I'm not able to help them. I haven't been able to figure this out. I am done, and I went to bed that night. I actually was on site with another state and I woke up at two in the morning and I do my best thinking as I'm sleeping. It's so weird. I've done it my whole career. I wake up in the middle of the night and have an idea. I woke up at two in the morning. I'm like, oh, I know what they're talking about. And I got up and I typed, I typed for like three hours and then got up for the day and got ready for the other state. But exactly what was needed was that, I mean, when we ended up meeting with the state and then they met with RSA, and that was the thing. It was the thing that was needed to get accomplished. And I felt super proud that we could kind of like, figure it out. It took a while. I almost quit, but, we got there in the end.   Sarah: You know, being in the final year of the grant, everybody's asking the question, what comes next? And of course we don't know what comes next. But I think my favorite part is looking back and building the relationships. So kind of touching on what all of you all have said. Relationships are important to me. Building the trust we are learning alongside of them just like they are. I always say there's no top of the mountain that any of us are ever going to reach when we've arrived. It's a daily learning process, but the program financially is so complex and trying to take those federal requirements And each of the state's requirements, which we've acknowledged already are all different, and bring that together in the center. And there's never been a resource to help agencies get down in the weeds, look at their systems, look at their processes, and help them navigate through that. And so just having something to offer and having directors send an SOS text at 9:00 at night, or we've talked to directors who have been in tears or excited because something really great has happened, and they want to share the success. It's all of that. Just being able to provide that valuable resource and support them along the way has been very rewarding for me. I know, and you all, but especially I think for the States.   Carol: So if you had a crystal ball, what would you predict regarding the financial state of the VR program over the next three years? And Chris, you get to start us on that lovely prediction.   Chris: Okay. Well, since I don't have a crystal ball, I think Sarah touched on this a little bit earlier. So for several years, the message from RSA and from Congress has been to spend, spend, spend. And so there's been a lot of changes in all the agencies to be able to spend more, to spend quicker, to do everything quicker and faster. And I think the spending is catching up. And I think that it might go too far. Like Sarah mentioned, the pendulum is going the other way, and I don't think the fiscal forecasting is robust enough to be able to predict when it's going to get hard. And since most directors do not come from a fiscal background, most directors come with the VR heart that you know is what a counselor has, paying attention to that. Fiscal forecasting is going to be a critical, critical point. And I know that most states are not doing it right. So that's my prediction. More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Sarah: And I think to tack on to that, I think we're going to see new technology and new resources emerge that will assist our agencies. Again, like Carol said earlier, some days it feels like we have our big chief tablet out and we're still doing things old school. And I think the only direction to go is up. So I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Allison: And I would have to say ditto to both of that, especially the fiscal forecasting and the pendulum swinging the other way. And a lot of states considering order selection or going into order selection. But one of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA. I know the discussions are happening with Congress right now, and if that implementation happens, you know, what's it going to look like? Because ten years ago when WIOA was passed, it was a huge impact on VR. And it still is. I mean, we're still challenged with trying to get everything implemented, trying to spend the minimum of our 15% on Pre-ETS. There's just so many things that we're still working on through. So very interested to see where that's going to go.   Carol: And I definitely think like nothing ever stays the same. So we always think like we're going to get to the place and it's just going to be even flow, like it's all going to be cool. We don't really have to pay a lot of attention, and I don't think that's ever going to be the state of the VR program. Like it's going to constantly need people paying attention. Whether the pendulum is one way and we have loads of money or it's the other way and we have no money now, like we have to somehow try to like even this out with the fiscal forecasting and all the things you're doing. But if you think you're going to get to the place where like, oh, I've reached it, Nirvana, it's all great. That's never going to be like this job takes constant attention to detail and what is happening. And so it is always going to be work. It's going to take a lot of effort from a lot of people. And as all the new people keep coming and going, figuring that out for the team so that you can sustain the practices and things that you have that help you to understand what's going on.   Katie: Yeah, I would just agree with everything that everyone already said. One of the big pushes that was brought up at CSAVR, is technology, and I think it is going to be interesting to see what kind of technology is introduced in the next three years that's going to help assist our programs.   Carol: So what is your best piece of advice for our listeners? And I'll let anybody open that one up.   Allison: I'm going to say you need to have a deep bench of leaders who are adverse in the financial requirements, maybe incorporating fiscal training for all staff on an annual basis, whether that's just refreshers or making sure new folks being hired understand all the requirements. But fiscal needs to be part of your ongoing training with staff. It's just critical.   Carol: I'd say, for directors coming in, I know the tendency is to want to be like, I have to know everything. I'm the director, I need to know all things. And even when you don't know the things, you pretend, you know the things. Don't pretend you know the things you don't know. Like you need to be humble and figure it out and learn and be willing to learn. For a lot of folks that are growing up in the VR system, having that sort of physical part of your brain, it may not be completely there. You're like, I went into VR because I didn't want to do math, and now you're in charge of, you know, $300 million in a program. And so you've got to just continue to learn and chip away and figure out how you can gain that really strong understanding, because you cannot just hand that off to some other group and think someone's managing that for you, because the buck really does stop with you in the end. As far as the responsibility over the control and allocation of the VR funds. So please keep learning, as Allison said, and be open and be humble when you don't know things and ask.   Sarah: There's a song by the Beatles called With a Little Help from My Friends. Everybody needs a Little help from time to time. And I know over the years we've worked with most of the agencies, but there are some that we haven't, and I've always assumed they're good. They don't need us. They're fine. It's not always necessarily the case. So acknowledging if I pick up a phone and call a peer or a fellow director, or hopefully the TAC continued to exist beyond this grant cycle. Reaching out and asking for help is okay, and it's encouraged.   Katie: Yeah, mine will be through the lens of policy and procedure. That's where I keep hitting. That's my passion on this QM team. We have a ton of resources available, and if you're struggling, you're looking at that table of contents saying, I can't do this. Reach out, give us a call. We can help you with prompting questions just to get the thought process going. And you can do it. It's going to be okay.   Chris: Ok, my piece of advice is to make connections. And I think everybody has kind of said that in their own way. But make those connections so that you have people you can reach out to and ask questions of whether it's us at the TA center, other states, other fiscal people. You need to be able to ask, how do you do this? What do you think of this idea that I have? How would you handle this? I mean, being able to have that connection and that type of conversation is critical 100%.   Carol: Well, I sure appreciate you all. And while we're still around, all our listeners can still connect with us. And we do have a QM fiscal email address. I will spell out for you. It is QM f I s c a l at v r t a c-qm.org. So qmfiscal@vrtac-qm.org. So please do reach out. We still are around for a little while and we can be your phone a friend. So thanks for joining me today guys I really appreciate it.   Chris: Thank you Carol. This was great.   Allison: Thanks for having Us.   Sarah: Thank you.   Katie: Thanks.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Follow Chris x/@TheLabelleLifeCheck out LaBelleLife.comChris's Business: 3 Nerds & A ServerNifty Links: Join the Community Click Here to Check Out the Store Click Here to Donate Greatest Theology Newsletter on the PlanetTranscript[00:00:03] Remy: I would love to just keep geeking out with you all night.[00:00:08] Chris: Anytime.[00:00:09] Remy: Chris, welcome to the show, man. Thank you for being here.[00:00:12] Chris: Thank you.Glad to be here.[00:00:16] Remy: So I think we have a pretty comprehensive talk tonight. I've got my show notes up here in front of me. We have a pretty comprehensive talk tonight about all sorts of things, I guess just your own sort of journey to Lutheranism and then to, you know, leading your family and. And, you know, father led faith formation, things like this, which is wonderful and something I really want to discuss. Overall.[00:00:47] Chris: I. I actually grew up in the ELCA Lutheran Church.[00:00:52] Remy: Okay.[00:00:53] Chris: Which wasn't the nightmare that it is now, but it was still. I mean, you know, we had some female pastors, like, associates growing up. Right. And I remember even back in Sunday school, you know, my, My teacher would take biblical stories and try to give scientific explanations for things. And so, you know, I. I remember one time she had this story how, you know, Moses led the Israelites across to the Sea of Reeds rather than the Red Sea, and that it was much easier to cross.And so, you know, my teenage mind, I was like, well, you know, that doesn't really solve your problem because then you have Pharaoh and his armies drowning in a shallow sea of reeds.[00:01:45] Remy: Yeah.[00:01:45] Chris: So one way or the other, you know, something miraculous had to happen.And it. It was definitely miraculous that I kept my faith during that time because, you know, it just. It seems like everything was going against it. But as. As I grew up, I. I started to question infant baptism. That was probably the. The biggest struggle I had.And I decided I wanted to go look for a different church because I just didn't like the direction the ELCA was going. Sure. So I ended up at a Mennonite Brethren Church, Anabaptist.And there, I mean, they welcomed me in.And it. It's still a church that I love the people there. And, you know, there's a few guys that I'll meet with every week for Bible study. So, you know, I keep in good contact with them. I. I actually just saw the pastor that church about a week ago.But over the course of, like, the last or the. The. I was there about 17, 18 years, and I just struggled with this idea of someone being baptized and saved as an infant. And it. It got to the point where my main struggle was, you know, when do we enter into this covenant? You know, do you enter into the covenant upon baptism as a baby or upon profession of belief? You know, because Jesus had talked about being born again. So I was like, well, you Know, if you're born again, that means that at some point you make a decision for Jesus. And is that the point that you enter into the covenant?And that's.[00:03:43] Remy: That's fascinating. If. I'm sorry to interrupt, but if I could. Why.I mean, why is that the conclusion, you know, that if you're born again, it means you must make a decision. And I don't know, maybe it's just my own post Lutheran mind, like, now that I'm like a Luthera...

n this episode of the Building Texas Business Podcast, we dive into the entrepreneurial journey of Summer Craig, founder of Craig Group, a strategic consulting firm. Summer shares how a vacation epiphany led her to start a business while caring for a newborn. Her firm now partners with private equity-backed companies, helping middle-market businesses transition from startups to structured entities ready for expansion. We explore the early challenges of entrepreneurship, including securing initial revenue from clients like Gulf States Toyota. Summer discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic unexpectedly fueled growth in the middle market and healthcare sectors. She emphasizes the importance of building high-quality teams through strategic hiring, focusing on complementary skills and an ownership mentality. Craig Group stands out with its hands-on approach and a patent-pending software platform for sales and marketing forecasting. Summer highlights the significance of creating a flexible work environment that prioritizes excellence and authentic client relationships. Her innovative approach to consulting demonstrates how companies can adapt and thrive in challenging business landscapes. The conversation reveals the delicate balance of cost-saving strategies and necessary investments. Summer shares insights into maintaining a remote work culture built on trust and continuous improvement. We learn about the power of problem-solving, client feedback, and the determination required to transform business challenges into opportunities. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Summer Craig, founder of Craig Group, shares her entrepreneurial journey that started with an epiphany during a vacation while caring for her newborn. Craig Group focuses on strategic consulting for private equity-backed middle-market companies, helping them transition from successful startups to structured entities. The early days of the business involved securing foundational clients like Gulf States Toyota, with initial revenues critical for startup success. Summer discusses the positive impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on business growth, particularly in the middle market and healthcare sectors. Strategic hiring decisions and fostering a company culture of complementary skills and flexible work environments are highlighted as key to building high-quality teams. Craig Group differentiates itself with a hands-on, results-driven approach and a patent-pending software platform that enhances sales and marketing forecasting. Building trust with elite clients through effective communication and personal interactions is emphasized as crucial for maintaining successful business relationships. The episode underscores the importance of collecting client feedback to ensure service excellence and continuous improvement. Summer uses her passion for mountain climbing as a metaphor for her entrepreneurial journey, highlighting the determination and vision required to navigate business challenges. The conversation concludes with reflections on the importance of strategic growth consulting and the ongoing journey of team building and client success. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Craig Group GUESTS Summer CraigAbout Summer TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Summer Craig, founder and CEO of Craig Group. Summer's passion for excellence has helped fuel her company's growth, and she and her team's authentic approach to delivering for clients has formed relationships built on trust. Summer, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast. Summer: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. Chris: So I know there's a lot for us to talk about. I want to start with giving you the opportunity to tell the audience who your company is and what are you known for. Summer: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I love your podcast. I love what you're doing, telling people's stories, so I'm glad to be here. Chris: Thank you. Summer: Yeah, my story is a unique one, very interesting. It actually started with an actual epiphany that I had. I had a true, you know, entrepreneurial lightning strike moment. That that moment was sitting in Frisco, colorado, on vacation, while rocking my three month old third child, which is never the time that you should start a company. But I but that was my I had an epiphany, and the epiphany really was this that I was always going to work very hard, I was going to outwork the people around me, I was going to outwork my peers and I was in a fantastic role, fantastic job. But I had the epiphany that if I was going to always work that hard, no matter what, I could create more value for myself and for the economy by starting my own firm. And I knew that I needed to start my own firm because of that that, if I'm going to always do this, why not build something instead of working for someone else and creating value for somebody else? So that was the epiphany, and it was a true anxiety ridden, sweat inducing moment when I knew that I was going to start a company, you know, despite having a newborn third child. But fast forward. And you know, we're five and a half years later, and you know, we have a firm of 32 people and it turns out the Epiphany was the right way to go for me, that's a really unique story. Chris: And I'm sure your husband thought it was part of brain fog, but you proved him wrong. Summer: Yeah, actually he's been nothing. I think he said okay, sure, you know a little bit, maybe a little more, thinking like oh, we'll see what, we'll see what actually happens here. Chris: Okay, so. So it sounds like the inspiration for you was I want to do this for myself and build something that's mine. Tell us what it is that you've built. Summer: Yeah, absolutely. So what we've built is we built a strategic consulting firm. So we consult with sponsor-backed typically private equity-backed portfolio companies. We really focus on the middle market, lower middle market. What we do with those companies is we come in at different phases in the hold period even pre, even in LOI and we support top line organic growth. So we've built a system of tools and a system of really smart people and a platform that creates a formulaic way to streamline processes, streamline people, streamline technology for growth in these companies. The solution is really right size for companies that have been really successful but haven't really worked on their operations and growth. So they're selling whatever they're selling widgets, whatever it is but have they truly really looked and said is there anybody else I could sell to? Could I be doing something better? Could I be faster, could I do this more cheaply? They haven't really had to do that, but when the PE sponsors come in, you definitely do have to do that and what we're finding is that in a lot of in-house and PE there is a trend of hiring operating partners, which is a newer trend. So some have expertise on top line growth, but for the most part, that expertise is not in-house. So the PE firms need to go outside of their doors to get support to help these firms grow. Chris: So it sounds like you take a company that's almost been successful, despite themselves. That's right and help them systemize that that's right, so that they can maybe leverage it for more success. Summer: Well, yeah, and I mean I hope some of my clients are listening, but many are in Texas and I'll say it's so impressive, a lot of industrial manufacturing it unbelievably successful, either family businesses or entrepreneur-led businesses. But you're right, they haven't really had to. I'm using, you know, using air quotes here, but try that hard because they've had a great product right they've had a great story. the entrepreneur, the founder, had a really great connected network right, so that gets you to a certain amount of growth. But then when you have, you know, pe dollars coming in who are betting on you, there's a growth mandate and the growth mandate that that activity to grow is not the same as what it takes to start a business, so growth is harder and it takes more structure, and that's exactly right. We come in and say, man, this is awesome, how can we take what's awesome, do more of what's awesome, and let's try to reduce some of the risk that you have in the business, probably because nothing's repeatable, nothing's written down, maybe there's no technology supporting system, so we help them build that structure. Chris: And it helps them go to scale. Summer: That's exactly right. Chris: So let me take you back to the beginning, right after the epiphany. What were some of the first things you remember doing to kind of start the business? And, as you said, you build this thing of your own. What were some of those basic building blocks and things you did? Summer: Yeah, Well, for me personally, it was. The first thing was, you know, pray, look for guidance and then talk to people. So I spoke to a lot of people in my network just saying, hey, I've got this crazy idea, I want to build a firm. And the initial idea, while still very similar to what we do, was really around looking at sales and marketing and being able to tie the two together and prove ROI. So that's the crux of what we do right is show your work, show that this works. And I have a long career of traditional marketing. Marketing and marketing has always struggled to tie themselves to results. And that was really, you know, the core idea, you know, back when I originally founded it. But at the time I was working for Gulf States Toyota best people in the world and I'll never work for another company again. That was the, I think I topped out working for them and being, you know, affiliated with the Friedkin family. They are just salt of the earth. So I was very lucky. At the time when I had my epiphany, I said, well, wouldn't this be great if I built my business plan and I started my company but I already had a client? Wouldn't that just make me feel better? Chris: For those of you listening, it's the ideal thing to do. Summer: It really is the ideal and I think, as an entrepreneur especially somebody that I wanted to do something, but it does mitigate some risk when you first file that paperwork and you know you've got some revenue coming in. So I was lucky enough to have Gulf States Toyota before I actually quit my job, they had agreed to hire my firm, which at the time was me, and we had a great relationship and we ended up entering into a contract where I was consulting with them and I was able to do that the day I officially opened, you know, opened Craig Group and opened my doors, and I think that gave me just a little bit of peace, knowing that there was revenue coming in while I was building all the structure that you have to do, which, honestly, is quite painful. Chris: Right, it's very painful. It's always more work than you even can think. Right, absolutely. Summer: And if you've not done it before, which? Who has? That's something, that's a skill set that you know. I mean, I guess you know lawyers do it all the time. You probably do it all the time, right, setting up entities. But if you I just had this, I you know, probably should have advised, got more advice, but I definitely was able to say, oh well, I can do this, I can. And what state do you incorporate and why, and what do you do, and who do you bring in, and is it all those questions? As an entrepreneur, you have to just do it. Chris: We advise on those issues all the time. I was in a conversation yesterday with someone on the same issues and always tell people look, because as the entrepreneur, the other thing you're doing at the very beginning is trying to save every penny you can, and people will maybe try to do it themselves on the legal side, and I try to counsel people. It's an investment in your business, not an expense, and but try, you have to keep it manageable you're exactly right, exactly right. Summer: And luckily I was at that juncture. It was a small enough entity where I was able to get by with it. I don't cannot today with. I have, you know, a wonderful legal team, but that time, you know, just as an entrepreneur, it's really a pain, it's overwhelming, just to figure out how do I, how do I get you know, a wonderful legal team. But that time, you know, just as an entrepreneur, it's really a pain, it's overwhelming, just to figure out how do I, how do I get you know, get started. But again, I was lucky that I had a client and so I had revenue coming in. It really enabled me to get a lot of things done because you didn't have to worry so much about that. And I remember thinking my first goal was, oh, you know, back half of the year, six months, if I could just, you know, make my salary back right, thinking like, oh, I'll just replace my income. Well, that I quickly got client two, client three, and that I blew past that goal. It was amazing. It was a little bit of a you know it, who you know. I really talked to people and got advice and those ended up being some of my clients eventually, when people that I was asking for advice. So that was great. But it was such a funny little goal, which was okay, because if I can do that, then it's like, okay, I've done something that hasn't been a detriment to my family. I'm adding to the family kitty. Well, we realized like, oh wait, now I can. There's more here. Chris: So I was just thinking as you were answering that question. You said it's been just over five years. Summer: So, given the calendar, that means you started in 2019 and then the world went upside down. Chris: So let's talk about, I mean, every business that starts out. It's going to face some headwinds and obviously this was a pretty big one. But just walk us through some of the challenges you faced and how you managed through that, given that you just had this new business. Summer: Absolutely Well, of course, like you know we. Business. Absolutely Well, of course, like you know we. I was just looking at right before COVID so COVID was in March and February I was just looking at expanding and getting some more office space because I'm hiring people. I was looking at leases. So that was hilarious, right, because the minute COVID hit, you know you don't sign the you don't sign the lease, which was great that we hadn't signed it yet, so that was just a fortuitous that was a God thing, but I will say there's a few good things that came out of COVID. In general, COVID was very good for Craig Group and here's why it was good for Craig Group. I think that middle market businesses that I was working with and we also work with healthcare companies as well, especially healthcare technology, B2B and B2C healthcare I think that what COVID brought to us was that people always did, but then they had to go and find your business online Right, and probably on their phone Right. So if you were not ready with a digital presence and for sales and marketing, so if somebody could not seamlessly buy something from you online or if they couldn't research your product online, you were toast in COVID. Chris: Very true yeah. Summer: And even B2B industrial manufacturing businesses that never cared a day in their life about their website. All of a sudden they need their spec sheets to be posted online because they can't drive over and drop them off in person right? They're not going to trade shows, right? So website, but not just the website, really the content, the interaction. And then how good is your email response? How good is your team on the phone? How good are they at working those leads that just got spotlighted? And on the healthcare side, as you can imagine, about COVID, people are scared to death. At that time, telehealth was nascent. Chris: Right. Summer: Pretty terrible still, kind of, and they realized we have to invest here. Patients don't know how to get in touch with us. Everybody's scared. People aren't coming into the doctor's office or the hospital because everyone's afraid that they're going to get COVID. So the messaging opportunity for what we do, which is growth, really about growth. We no longer had to convince our clients you need to take action, because before pre-COVID, and even either at the same time of COVID, there was also this shift with the markets too. Around PE also said oh wait, this has been like really good times and I actually need to start building organic growth instead of just buying another company and doing roll-ups. So this happened very right after COVID. So those two things we did not. We stopped having to tell people. People would ask us why are you doing growth support? We don't need that, right, and nobody says that now, right, no, there's no argument. So COVID, plus what was happening in kind of the deal-making PE market, which we can, that's another. That was another big change for us, but it just helped people say, oh my gosh, we need help. We need help right now. And that was a huge. It was a huge growth time for us. So we grew significantly in 2020 and 2021. Chris: Stars aligned, it sounds like. Summer: Stars aligned and again, it was just one of those who would have. There would have been no way to know. Chris: Forecast, foresee or plan no way. Summer: The only way that I was able to do is I said we were able to kind of make hay, which was okay. We have a door here, so how can I be really good about scaling in a smart way? So I didn't hire tons of people, I hired slowly. I never wanted to have layoff right, so I was able to say I have an opportunity, let's scale slowly. Due to that growth, we're also bootstrapped. So we were able to fund our whole company out of revenue which, especially at that time, I wasn't going to go fundraise. It was just so we were just. We're really lucky that we were able to build something, grow, but grow in a. We weren't growing too fast that we were getting out over our skis. We were able to service our clients, grow, you know, as needed. Then it ended up being a good time for us to kind of get our feet under us about who we are as a firm. Chris: It's a great segue when you talk about the growth you were seeing from the client revenue side forced you to start building your team. Yes, so let's talk about how you went about. One setting the strategy of not growing too fast, because you can fail when you do that, but really focusing on making sure you're making the right hires and adding to your team in the right way. Summer: Yeah Well, I'll say I don't always make the right hires and I've made so many mistakes. If you said that, we'd know you're lying, yeah if there was a thing that I think I could always do better at, it was being even better at hiring. I mean, to me it's the hardest thing that I think we do as business leaders, as CEOs and entrepreneurs. So that is something that I think you just get better at, but you still fail. So that's hard. I have no secret. I have a few things I've learned on that side, but I will say, on the growth side too. Before that, as a person, I'm just a fiscally conservative person in general, so I think some entrepreneurs can get especially more kind of visionary and I think I for sure hold the vision, but I'm very conservative. But that helped us. I think I've had to almost pull myself off of that, so I almost can be too conservative, right. So that's something that I've had to learn about myself, which is I need a counterweight to say you know, do this. But at that time it worked. It was a good way to scale. So I am conservative there, but I did realize in terms of people, if I was really going to grow and we have this value prop about growing with sponsored backed businesses. I myself while I am married to somebody that works in PE and I know a lot about PE. I never myself worked inside the doors of PE and I really had to have that in my firm in order to just have that credibility, you know, just to. Okay got it right and so I did decide very early on. We're growing, we're having a lot of success. I knew that I had to have somebody else at a partnership level that was going to be able to move us to the next level, and it had to be somebody that did not have my skills. Chris: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Summer: So I needed somebody that was very, you know, has a different background than me, had a different skill set than me, and so that was, you know, really a game-changing hire. So we brought on at that time Libby Covington. And again, she comes out of private equity, she was in-house at Cap street but also worked at law firms and then had also operated in-house with the Doggett family, so we had a lot in common in that sense. But I knew what she brought and what I brought were going to be complimentary to the market and that was ended up being true. You know that that was. But it was hard right, deciding to bring in, you know, somebody. It's really hard. Chris: You make it sound really easy. Summer: It's not. Chris: Because a lot of people entrepreneurs, maybe just humans in general we tend, you know people that we're like, so you tend to hire people like you Absolutely. Instead of doing. What you should be doing is what you did. And how do you hire someone that fills you out right the other side of the skill sets that you don't have to make the strong team. So you know, kudos to you for seeing that, and I know of Libby from her days at Cap Street. So so then you bring Libby on and there's 30 other people you've hired in a few years. Summer: That's right, that's right. Well, I have, you know, tricia Eaton. She started with me. She was actually my first employee, trisha Eaton, she started with me, she was actually my first employee. She now is in an operations role for me. She's been with me since day one. You can do anything. She's the person that can do anything. You just give her a problem and she just goes and solves it. So she has just been my right-hand woman and I couldn't do this without her. So we had her, we had Libby and then, quickly, we had to hire some subject matter experts. So me and Libby cannot keep delivering all the work. Patricia can't deliver all the work. So we really had to go and fill out the teams and I focused on hiring high-margin employees. So where could I bill and where could I charge for their expertise? Sure, right. And then if there was employees where we didn't really use them that much or it was really low margin, we would usually go with consultants. So I had a bench of 1099s. And we still do. We've less. So now we still do. And again, that was another way where we scaled more slowly. So it didn't, you know, have to get ahead of ourselves on building. When was it the right to have the full-time versus the part-time. That was also a benefit of COVID. So I think COVID and I'm seeing this today too it really, I think, enabled people to work the way that was better for them, like there was a new definition of work. Chris: For sure. Yeah, and it's being talked about every day. Summer: Of course, and especially in your industry too, in law firms with a very kind of traditional track, and I think there's people that say I want to work and do really good work, but I can't work in this way, and whether it was in the office or not, but even if it was maybe I want to do great work, but I need to do it 30 hours a week because I'm taking care of my aging mother or I want this lifestyle. I will make less money, but I need to work this much time from this location. So we leaned in hard on that Huge value prop for us. So I think that was one of my successes of being able to hire really great talent, because I was able to align with the times, because it was what it was but also to truly say I want your best work. I don't care if you need to live in Miami, right, I don't care. If you're telling me I really have to work 30 hours a week because I have personal responsibilities, I'm like great, give me your best 30 hours a week. To me that's better than any you know 40 plus hours a week person. That isn't maybe the best. Chris: Sure. Summer: Right. So I, we scaled that, we scaled through that way, we also would. We have a and we still do this today. We bring people on and we do a 60 day trial, and so and it's written, it's papered up and it says if this isn't a fit fit, we're going to separate fast. Chris: Yeah, there's a lot of value in that and it does help the saying of hire slow, fire fast, absolutely. So you get a test run at it. Summer: That's right, and sometimes you can't hire slow. Sometimes I wish I could. I've got I don't know four roles we're hiring right now and I need them to be filled yesterday. Chris: Right. Summer: But at least we've learned that we do have to have a trial period and we have to be eyes wide open about it. You know we're and I. Just part of our culture and it's part of our values is we do excellent work. So excellence is part of our culture. But also, if you can't meet that excellence, you will be let go, like we fire people, and it's not a scary thing, it's just. You know we're, we just have no tolerance. You know, and what we talked about we something we say in houses we don't have. Just you know we're, we just have no tolerance. You know, and what we talked about we something we say in house is we don't have middle managers. You know we don't have that. You're, you're, everyone's in the spotlight. It's that ownership mentality that's right and everybody's like that, so everyone's in the spotlight. There's no middle, you know. So you years, I mean there's been lots of not home runs you know, it's been you know there's hills and valleys there with hiring. Chris: Well, that's good for people to hear. Right, You're not always going to get it right. There's ups and downs, just like in life. But if you're, if you have a mission, like like Craig group does and like our firm does, then you know what your why is. And if something veers off from that, then you stay true to the why and then make those hard decisions. Summer: Yeah, and it always is. It's always hard. It's the hardest thing we do. Chris: No doubt. I want to talk a little bit about innovation, because clearly what your company's doing is innovative and for PE firms. But just in your space, how do you go about fostering innovation amongst your team and encouraging it within the company? Summer: Yeah, I mean, I think that it is who we are. Honestly, it has to do with every single person that we hire. Again, even going back to that, we don't have any middle managers mindset, which is there's no medium, there's no mediocrity, we're always how could you have done better? How could we have done something faster? Wait, what tools did we not use this time? So those questions are asked. Every engagement we have, I'll say we're doing something pretty different. We do have a few competitors out there not very many, but we do something unique. I mean, we are consultants, we do consult, but we're certainly not a consulting firm typically. You know, we're not an Accenture right, because? Why? Because our people actually get in and then they actually do the work, Not that we don't do at Accenture, but that's our model, it is what we do. So we're boots on the ground, so we actually do the work. So we're not an agency, but we do some agency work right. So and then on the technology side, we have a software platform. It's patent pending. It's all about forecasting and how do we get better at forecasting sales and marketing? And if we can forecast better, we can then make action and take action more quickly. And so those are the three things we do. And again, we have some competitors, but what we do as a company inherently is pretty innovative, Like we're doing something a little different, Like the skill set is a little different. We move faster, you know. We have a different, you know. So we are doing something different. I think everybody at the firm knows that and they're aware of it, it's just ingrained in your culture, it's just who they are. Chris: They know it, and I've been to your website so I'll tell you it absolutely comes across from your website, which I know is part of the thought that went into design of the website. Right, you show up different Yep, so it seems like that's part of when you're hiring these people you're looking for someone that can fit that. Summer: That's exactly right that DNA that innovative mindset. It's right and something that Libby and I talk about all the time and again, I fail on it. Sometimes I succeed, but we hire and we've really landed on this for Craig Group is we have to hire for people that just figure it out? They just get it done. It's like I don't really care what they're, you know exactly what they know or what they've done. It's like can you solve this problem? Just you know, almost like if you just did a business school case and put it in front of them and said solve it. Chris: Well, I'm curious because I've been reading a lot about this lately and we have some internal debate about it in our recruiting process. Summer: Do you do any kind of role play as part of your process to put them in the position or challenge them to see how they problem solve. You know, we don't do it formally and I think maybe we also thought about doing it formally like a formal case. We do it in an informal way, which is here's a situation that we're in Usually, it's a real, it's a real client situation and we say hey, what do you think about this? And let them, you know, talk it through. Right so we do it as part of our interview process, but we certainly don't have it formalized and I think maybe we should. Chris: I feel like there's a lot of value in it. I've heard people a lot smarter than me talk on it, and you know the question is and it is the question of does that scare a candidate away? And my answer that is well, if it does, and maybe we learned something early on we should have won't find out till a year later. Absolutely. I'm kind of at a mindset. It seems like a good idea. Summer: I think it's great. I would agree wholeheartedly. If somebody's scared of any kind of testing, then that's probably not a good. It's probably not a good choice. Chris: It was not going to be the person that says let me prove to you I can do this, I'll figure this out, right. So just interesting. You know people's mindsets on that so that always leads me, maybe, into the culture of Craig Group. How would you describe it and what are some of the things that you believe you're doing that help foster and allow it to grow? Summer: yeah, yeah, I'd say that our culture again, we you know excellence in our work is really the number one pillar. We have a thing on our on our mission also. This is no bs. What we mean by that is we show up authentically. We're real, we're real people, we're real humans. We have, you know, everybody that I work with either is caretaking for somebody else in their family, whether it be aging parents, children. They're passionate about volunteering and they're doing that. So we are whole humans and whole people and so I believe in like I don't want to if somebody shows up in an inauthentic way, it's like I'm fine, everything's fine, and I have no tolerance. So we have this real culture of authenticity, excellence, absolute excellence in client delivery. So everybody shows up with that. It's our culture, because we talk about it in hiring, we talk about it in our all-hands monthly meetings, we talk about it in the way we behave, which is we meet people where they are today. So it's okay in Craig group to be very authentically who you are. So that's just how I am, that's how I run the company, so, so we have an authentic culture. But what that also means is everyone at the company we're on, we're remote. We do have a lot of people in Houston, but we are remote. But that does require people to communicate with each other, which is are you okay, all right, picking up the phone and saying because you, if we're all going to have no bs and we're going to work hard, you have to know what your team how, what is your team okay? Chris: what's going on in their life? Summer: yeah, might impact their ability to deliver excellence 100, which is like tell me, do you need help? Chris: my follow-up question was going to be you sounded like a remote company. So, yeah, creating the, the connectivity of that culture, especially at that level that you're trying to achieve, has got to be challenging because you're not in person. Summer: It's so hard, it's so hard and again, I think it's. You know, we have a cameras on culture, you know, and everyone's cameras are on. I mean, I spend, we are all on. You know, video calls all day. Which pros and cons. Chris: Right. Summer: But I think that everyone's leaned into that. There know we can't be grumpy about that. We're not, you know, and everyone's also required to do really good work. But part from a training standpoint, and I think we're getting better at this, I think we can keep getting better. We're not perfect, but working asynchronously, which is what remote work is Right. Not everybody knows how to do that. Like you can't assume that everybody just knows how to work asynchronously. It's a skill set. Knowing when to do async work versus when do you need to have an in-person meeting, knowing when those workflows that is not something that I think you can just know. Chris: Sure. Summer: And so we definitely have an expectation that everyone works really efficiently asynchronously, and I love asynchronous work. Personally, I think it's way more efficient than getting in a big meeting full of people all at the same time and wasting everybody's time. But there is also this time to get everybody in the meeting and you know, sit together. But we are doing better at training people about asynchronous expectations. So we use you know, very technology heavy, very tool heavy. So we use a tool. There's a tool called Loom. It's a video tool. Basically, you can explain something really quickly on your own time and then send it to people so then they can go figure out what you're trying to explain to them. even if you couldn't meet in person. We use project management software. Basecamp is the one we use. Other people use Asana, so we use Basecamp, and all of our work is asynchronously matched. And so I think that culture though one thing that does it, we move really fast. So the culture is again with the excellence and you can move fast with async work. Sometimes it slows you down, sure, because you need to just pick up the phone Instead of you know, so you can. And that's a lot of times where I get into things Is, hey, let's stop doing this Call like call each other, you know somebody's not understanding, right, but our culture is really, we move really fast. Our clients have extremely, extremely high expectations. I mean our clients are you know? PE firms. They're, you know, there's no tolerance. Chris: And they're worried about the ROI and they want the growth yesterday. Yes. Summer: Yesterday and they, you know. So we work under that pressure with all of our clients high intensity, high growth. So we're high intensity, high. You know that we match our clients. We're yeah, that's what, that's who we are, and I think it works really well with a remote team. I think we've been able to hire people that want that, that high intensity work. If you don't want it, you can tell and it doesn't work with that. Chris: It shows up real quick, it shows up. Yeah, so you were talking about, you know, your base clients, the PE firms. Let's talk about what are some of the things you found to be successful for you and your company to kind of build and maintain those relationships so that you keep them and you get more. Summer: Yeah, absolutely so. I think it's challenging to, I think, sell anything which we're selling a service, right, but I think it's challenging to sell into. I don't want to put them all in the same basket. So not all PE or independent sponsors are sponsored, because they're not all created equal, right, so that's. I can say that but it is a tight group of people. It's a it's tight knit. It's a small group. I think it's an it's elite. Most people that have those roles are very well educated. They have great experience. I think you really have to be trustworthy, like they are not going to pull in a partner that has not been vetted. You know that, had that, that hasn't really been like. You know this is the real deal. So those relationships are really hard-earned. You know those are not easy to come by. I will say me and Libby both have our own sets of networks. That was enabled, sort of the catalyst. But the only reason why that's been able, we've had success, is because we've had to prove it. And when we prove it, you know, we then can build onto the next one and the next one. And I mean our model would be that we become a partner with the firm and that they bring us in on multiple portfolio companies and that's what happens, right. But it's hard. It's not something that you don't. You know we're not selling. You know something that's not high value, high stakes, and we really are a partner. We're not a, you know, a vendor and that takes a lot of trust. We have to spend a lot of time. Chris: Yeah, it's funny because I can totally relate. Our mindset here at the firm is the same. We want to be as we say this all the time the legal partner to our clients, an extension of the C-suite, not a vendor, not a commodity, but an actual value-added partner. Summer: Yes, that's exactly right. And it's hard to get there. You don't just say that and you know you're like oh, I want to be your growth partner. I want to be a member of your management team. It's like OK, prove it. Chris: Right. Summer: Right, and so I think that we do that. I think our team consistently delivers best in class results and best in class work. We're also right sized for the lower middle market and middle market, and I think that's what needs to happen. We can't you know it's not Bain, right? No, and they can't, they couldn't, they can't do it anyways Right, but we're also not, you know, your sister's brother that's going to help you with sales and marketing. That you know out of their garage. So I think we're right size and for our size, like for where we are in the market, I think we're an absolute best in class option and we've had to prove it and prove it and that's also why we have best in class talent, because we've proven it and proven it. But it's definitely been. You know it's a hard fought. It's hard fought. Chris: You know every single win is a hard you're only as good as the last one, that's right. Summer: I mean it's dig and ditches hard. You know, it's like we have to say. I mean we're making sure that every time we deliver the work product, the trust and then also the ability to immediately implement our plan, and that's one of we really stake our hats on that, like we don't just give you a here's some really great ideas that you can't implement, nor do you have the money to go hire the team to do it. So we really just hang our hat on, let's roll, let's go, and it's like ready to go, and so that's hard, it's hard work. You know this is tough and so that's exactly right We've got. You know we need that to be so good that the firm, the CEO of the port co and the firm are going to say man, that was really worth it. What would we do without that team? How would we, where would we be right now without that team? Chris: Where else can we use them? Summer: And that's what they. You know it's like we can't. We have to. You know, we have to keep. I think we can always get better. Chris: The results would suggest that. But to your point, the last word you just said right was if you don't have the mindset of continuing to, how can we improve? You're going to get left behind. Summer: That's right, and I think, a lot of my core team. You know one of my senior strategists, Macy Allen. I think every time she works on something, she comes up with another innovative idea about. You know what, if we would have done this or wait this tool, can we try out this tool? We're really leaned into that technology and AI in our work, but I think that what works so well is the answer is yes. Bring it in, let's try it, let's test it no-transcript and just your leadership style. Chris: How would you describe that and how do you think it's evolved since you started this five years ago? Summer: Yeah, well, I mean, I think it definitely has evolved, you know, I think that also going from having you know two people to this very large team. We're very flat organization so we don't have lots of hierarchy. So most people directly report to me probably too many, which is something we're working on. But I think I've got a very straightforward management style so there's really not a lot of dancing around things. There's not a lot of confusion. If I'm telling you something, it's probably going to be very clear. I also give feedback continuously. I believe in spot feedback so we don't wait and write it down and wait for the quarter end to go back and like report. I think that's just tiresome. So everyone is encouraged to give spot feedback both you know, positive and negative and do it in that moment. Sometimes I will do it in our project management tool and say spot feedback and just put it. And that way if it's written. Sometimes they can have some time to react. Chris: Right. Summer: As opposed to kind of. Chris: I like how you signpost it though. Yeah, I say spot feedback. Summer: Like prepare thyself. You are getting feedback. Yeah, and I put it and I just say it, and I think that I lead with kindness, always, always. I think that truth without kindness is cruelty and that's a direct quote from my husband, jason Craig, one of his themes and I think that being kind to people, even when you're frustrated and is, is the only way to be. So lead with kindness, but also tell the truth, which is this you know this went well, this didn't go well, you know, but it's not. It's not about you as a human. You know this isn't a. You know we're not making a personal judgment about you, but this work product, you know, wasn't what it needed to be or whatever it is. But I tend to give feedback. You know, again, it's rapid, it's in this, it's like I lead. You know, very, you know, crisply in the moment I've had to get even more efficient with that, with a lot of people you know, and I don't see all the things, and so I definitely try to speak to every a lot of people to get you know other people's opinions on work product. So I talked to a lot of people. I talked to clients ask for feedback and then go and manage my employees. That are what I heard from clients. So yeah, I think I'm a management style again. I think I get a lot of feedback, a lot information, but crisp, kind, but really Christmas and some compassion right, always, always. Chris: So that's something you mentioned. I don't think a lot of people think to do or they think to. They think about it but they're scared to do it, and that's get feedback from your clients. Summer: Yeah. Chris: Right, it's the most valuable feedback you can get because you're really trying to serve the clients. But if you're not delivering what they want in the way they want it, you're missing the mark. Right, you can work hard and you can believe it's excellent, but if they don't believe it's excellent, hard and you can believe it's excellent, but if they don't believe it's excellent. So anything you do this kind of systemize that, or is that just you know periodic check-ins with your clients, or I don't like that. Summer: You know people will disagree with me on that and there's a whole theory in marketing around, you know, net promoter scores, which is it's just a survey, essentially that we're just not big enough for that. Like I need to be able to call all my CEOs which I do and can, and I get feedback and write it down. I mean, you know, and I talked to all of my CEOs at least every other week and I asked them all every time, you know, and sometimes they would say I don't even know, go talk to the other team and I do which is great, because if the CEO doesn't know if if anything's good or bad, that's great. Chris: That means there's no problem excellent. Summer: But no, I do it continuously. I see that as really one of my roles in sort of steering the ship is talking and saying you know what's, you know and I want everything. I want silly stuff, little bitty, you know things. I got some of that last week. It was a really super small thing, but that you know it matters. That's right. You know I don't, you know I want all the things. So I just try to have a relationship that's very trustworthy. It's informal in the sense that we can talk. I want that kind of relationship. I don't need it to be something that's this big thing. Chris: You don't need an email saying click the button and fail the survey. Summer: I really hate it. I really do I mean again somebody's going to quote me on that in a few years when we do that and send the email but I just no thanks, We'll ask directly? Chris: I don't. I'm not in favor of them either, and I don't know that you get the most authentic feedback. Yeah, right now, at some point, if you're so big, maybe you don't have a choice. Summer: But yeah never lose the personal yeah, that's right, that's right. Chris: Summer, this has been such a fun conversation. I want to just end on a few lighter notes. Okay, what was your first job growing up? Summer: oh, lifeguard, life lifeguard. Out at pecan grove, country club, out in richmond texas, which might have been my most favorite job I've ever had. I still like love it taught because you had to wear. Chris: You got to wear a bathing suit. You were the most tan you ever did. I was the most tan. Summer: I also love to swim. I love teaching swim lessons and I was a swimmer, and it was just it was great very good. Native texan native texan born in odessa, texas. Yeah, native native Texan Lived in Oklahoma, lived in Illinois, but I'm back in Texas. Chris: Okay, so do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Summer: Tex-Mex, all right yeah. Chris: I usually ask people this question, but you have three young kids so I don't know. But if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where'd you go and what'd you do? Summer: Yeah, my husband and I, even though we live in the flattest part of Texas I think that's under sea level we really love to mountain climb. So we're hikers and climbers. We try to take a pretty big trip every year or so if we can. We did a really big trip this summer. It would be a no-brainer. I mean we would go and climb a really big mountain. Aconcagua in South America has been on his list. I can't quite get it on mine because it's a 30-day trip and I can't. I've got a 11-year-old, a nine-year-old and a five-year-old and I can't quite do that. But if I could wave a magic wand and I could be gone for 30 days, I would go climb Aconcagua and spend time in South America. Chris: How cool. That's a good one. Well, thanks again for taking the time. Love your story. Congratulations on the success that you've already achieved and that I know that's in your future. Summer: Thanks, Chris, appreciate having me on. Special Guest: Summer Craig.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I chat with Renee Morris, Chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter. We explore her path from management consultant to leading a national hair care brand. Renee shares her approach to maintaining business control by relying on personal savings and family support rather than external investors. She discusses forming partnerships with major retailers like Target and Walgreens while building a creative team to drive innovation. I learned how she tackles recruitment challenges and ensures brand visibility at a national level. Looking ahead, Renee explains her vision to expand into skincare and education, and serving communities of color in new ways. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Renee Morris discusses her journey from management consultant to Chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter, emphasizing her desire to balance career ambitions with family life. We explore Renee's decision to purchase an existing company rather than starting from scratch, leveraging her experience in sales and marketing strategy within the consumer products sector. Renee highlights the importance of having a financial safety net when transitioning to entrepreneurship, sharing her personal experience of not drawing a salary for years and relying on her husband's support. We talk about Renee's strategic decision to avoid third-party investors to maintain control over her business, focusing on conservative growth and solving customer problems. Renee explains her approach to forming strategic partnerships with major retailers like Target and Walgreens, discussing the role of distributors in helping small brands enter national markets. We discuss the challenges of recruiting and nurturing talent, emphasizing the importance of fostering a collaborative environment that encourages innovation and creative thinking. Renee outlines her vision for expanding the brand into adjacent areas such as skincare and education, aiming to serve the community of color more broadly. We explore Renee's leadership style, focusing on adaptability and learning from failures as she considers new business ventures. Renee shares personal insights from her early career and hiring experiences, emphasizing the importance of trusting one's instincts during the recruitment process. We examine the role of social media and influencers in maintaining customer confidence and visibility during brand transitions, particularly when changes are made to product packaging. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Uncle Funky's Daughter GUESTS Renee MorrisAbout Renee TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Renee Morris, chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter. Renee shares her passion for helping curly girls solve their hair problems with unique and innovative natural hair products. Renee, I want to thank you for coming on Building Texas Business. It's so glad, happy to have you as a guest. Renee: Thank you, I'm excited to be here. Chris: Okay, so you won the award so far for having the coolest and, I would say, funky, but that would be. Renee: Play on words Right. Chris: But as far as a name for a company, uncle Funky's Daughter, yes. Okay, tell us what is your company known for and what do you do? Renee: So Uncle Funky's Daughter is a hair products company. We're based here in Houston, texas. I bought the company, so the parent company is Rotenmore's Consumer Group. But I bought the brand Uncle Funky's Daughter 10 years ago from a husband and wife team. So Uncle Funky's Daughter curates natural hair products for women, men and children who choose to wear their hair naturally, and so that's shampoos, conditioners, curl definers, moisturizers, stylers, finishers. Shampoos, conditioners, curl definers, moisturizers, stylers, finishers you name it, we make it. We also have a thermal protection line for women who want to blow dry and style their hair with heat, and we're distributed nationally Target, walgreens, kroger, cvs, heb, locally, so you name it, other than Walmart, we're there. Chris: Beauty Easy to find, easy to find, easy to find well, I have to ask this because I have daughters. I mean Sephora or Ulta. Renee: No, Sephora or Ulta. Yet we've been working that line. We can talk about that as part of this deep dive, but we've been working that line and but no land in Sephora or Ulta just yet okay, very good. Chris: So how did you find your way into the hair care product world? Because you didn't start there. Renee: No, I am a former management consultant 20 years management consulting, advising clients multi-billion dollar companies on how to drive revenue growth and through sales and marketing. And I was a mother of three kids. At the time my son was probably three or four, my daughters were two and I was flying back and forth between Houston and New York for a client. And I had this realization that I didn't want to do that as a mom. I needed to be home, but I still wanted to be a career person. So I knew I am not built to be a stay-at-home mother. That is not who I am, and COVID taught me that with isolation. And so what I started deciding was I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do next and I realized I had some options. Right, it's that fork in the road that you go through. You start to look inwardly every time you have that fork in the road and I did that and I said okay, your option A is to go find a company based in Houston and be a VP or senior VP of some operation. Option B is you find a small company and you're like a big fish in a small pond kind of thing. Option C is you just go do your own thing. And after I kind of went through it, I realized I worked for the Coca-Colas, like in GE Capitals of the world, in my past. I didn't want to go work for a big company. I didn't think I wanted to work for a small company because of my personality style, right, um. And so I decided I wanted to go buy something and then or have my own company. And so then the question becomes do you build or do you buy my? I'm a management consultant by heart, so it's always go buy something. Why? Because I can take it, I can fix it and I can grow it. And so then it became all right, well, what are you going to go buy? And so, like most people out there, they're thinking about buying a company. I started reaching out to brokers, I started doing some networking, calling attorneys, people that work on deals, that kind of stuff, just putting my name out there, and I got all the things that you normally get when you're looking to buy a company the gym, the dry cleaner, the storage facility, the gas station, all the things that I didn't want to buy because I didn't have a passion for them. And so, also, for background, my consulting experience in sales and marketing strategy has been predominantly in consumer products. So I know consumer products, I know revenue growth, I know marketing strategy. So I was like okay, so I kept looking and I used this hair product called Uncle Funky's Daughter. I found it when I first moved here in 2000. Like all curly girls out there back then, that was almost 20 years ago, my goodness. But 15 years ago back then there weren't a lot of natural hair products out there for women of color and women of curly hair with curly hair specifically. And so I googled when I first moved here natural hair products, curly hair, houston and Uncle Funky Stoddard came up. I've never heard of this company right. So I go to rice village and buy this product and I start using it. Extra butter, start using it. And for those out there that are, you know, african American descent, you know thick, curly hair, we do this thing called two strand twists to what. I love it. Two strand twist. Chris: Okay. Renee: So, you take your hair and you twist it in like instead, instead of braiding it, you put it in twists, and there are single twists all over my head right. So that's how I would style my hair wear it, rock a two strand twist. Those out there will understand that, look it up and then Google it and then and so that worked on my hair really well. And so, again, for those with tight, curly hair, finding the right hair product that works for your hair is tough. It is not easy, as you know. One of your team members, courtney, was talking about. She's gone through all the products Because you go through this product journey trying to find something that works for you right. So found Extra Butter, worked, loved it, and then I would stop using it while I'm traveling because I would forget it right at home sure. I would go back to some other competitive brand and it didn't work for my hair. So I'm like, okay, uncle Funky's daughter is the only thing that works for my hair. So I go in to get my Uncle Funky's daughter one day, after I, you know, had braids and wash them out. And yada, yada, yada. I'm going in, I'm getting my extra butter and this guy behind the counter who I bought hair products from for the past at this point, five years, says yeah, my wife and I are going through a divorce and I'm like, oh, so I do have an MBA right. I'm not some, you know, trying to sound like a shark, but my MBA said distressed asset might be willing to sell stress asset might be willing to sell. Like literally, that is the voice that went in my head. And so I was like, oh really. So I stood there in that store and I just chatted with him for hours and about the company, you know what, you know personally what he was going through, because divorce, you know, for those that may have gone through it, can be an emotional, you know troubling time. So I was a listening ear. But as I'm listening, I'm also thinking about like, okay, what's the story behind the brand? Is this going to resonate? And I'm also watching people come in and out, right. And so I said, well, if you guys are you guys thinking about selling it? And he gives me a story about you know what's happening with the sell and cell and I said, well, if you're ever thinking about selling it, let me know. So I walk out, I Google, because you know this is horrible to say, but divorces are public right right. Chris: Is it filed in state court? Renee: it's a public record so I'm figuring out what's happening with the divorce and I find out that the company is in receivership. And for those who don't know, because I did not know at the time what a receivership was, a receivership happens when a divorce is happening and the husband and wife aren't operating, behaving appropriately. Chris: Well, they can't agree on the direction of the company and it can be not in a divorce. But basically, owners cannot agree and a court may appoint a receiver to run the company. Renee: Exactly. Thank you, that's why you're the attorney and a court may appoint a receiver to run the company Exactly. Chris: Thank you. That's why you're the attorney. Renee: Have a little experience with that yes, so the judge had appointed this guy to be the receiver. I reached out to the gentleman and I said I'm interested in the sale of Uncle Funky's daughter, if that so happens to be the case. And so the one thing I did learn and you can probably expound on this is oftentimes in a divorce, when the receiver comes in, at that point that receiver is really thinking about how to get rid of this asset. And so those are all the things that I learned during this process, and I was like, okay, so he wants to sell because he wants to get paid and he knows nothing about this business. Chris: He was, you know no offense, no emotional tie to it, for sure no emotional tie. Renee: He's an older white gentleman who knows nothing about black hair products and so I was like, okay, so he doesn't know, he doesn't have an appreciation for the value of the company. And so I reached out and I said, okay, here's a number. You wouldn't believe the number I gave him and he counted with some minor you, some minor adjustment, and we bought this company for less than $100,000. And they had a revenue at the time. When I saw their tax returns, I think it was maybe a million or so that they claimed in revenue. At some point they said, but at least for sure I think our first year of revenue was probably around and it was a partial year. Probably a quarter million dollars is what revenue they generated, and so we really, if you talk about a multiple of sales, we bought it on a tremendous it's a heck of a deal the deal. Okay, I can't find those deals these days. If anybody has one of those deals, you come let me know and so. So that's how we ended up buying this company ten years ago and shortly thereafter, target comes knocking at the door and says, hey, we were having this discussion with the owners about, you know, potentially launching. Would you be interested? And I'm like, absolutely. And it was because they were going through this divorce that they couldn't get over the finish line, right? And so shortly after we buy, we're launching in target. But before I did that, one of the first things I did was because, if you ever, if any, it's probably so old you can't find it. But the label. When I first bought the company, when I was buying it, it was this woman's face with a big afro on the front and it had a cute little 70s vibe on it and it was in this white hdpe bottle which, by the way, those aren't recyclable. So I said first, we need to change this, we got to change the packaging, we got to upgrade the label, we need to make it universally appealing to all curly girls, because if I look at a woman with a big afro, I think tight, curly hair like mine right and our products work across the spectrum from wavy, like Courtney, to really tight, like Renee, and that wasn't representative on the label okay so we redesigned the label, changed the bottle from an HDPE bottle to a PET bottle, which is recyclable, and then just upgraded this packaging to what I consider a sleeker new look. Chris: Very good, Great story, Thank you. So back up a little bit, share a little bit, because so you go from big corporate consulting job some comfort in there probably. You mentioned travel and you did mention the mom aspect playing a role. But let's talk a little bit about actually getting the courage to take that leap out of the big corporate role into. I'm going to buy something that's all on me now to either make it or break it. Yeah, that had to be scary. Renee: It was, and I am fortunate in that. You're right. I had comfort. We have financial security. I had a husband who was, who still is, who's a senior executive in medical devices has nothing to do with anything about consumer products, but you know, we have the luxury for him to say I can carry this load, financial load, and I think that's the big mix, right? I tell people all the time if you're going to take that leap, you got to make sure you've got cash flow, because for not only for your, you know, for the company, but for you personally, right? Because there were several years where my husband called my business a hobby Because I was contributing nothing to the financial plan. Chris: In fact, you were probably taken away. Yeah, I was taken away. Renee: So every year I mean. So I wasn't drawing a salary. I didn't draw a salary for a couple of years after I, I didn't draw a salary until our tax accountant said you have to draw a salary because we're changing you from whatever tax to an S-corp. And I was like oh, wow, really Okay. So what am I going to pay myself? Okay, and then he goes Well, you have, and it has to be reasonable. So for probably three or four years after I bought the company, I didn't draw a salary. I was paying my employees but I wasn't paying myself. And so I think and I say all that to say yes, it takes a leap, but it also takes the ability and the willingness to take that financial hit Right. So were there things that we probably wanted to do as a family that we didn't do? Probably so. Chris: Yeah. Renee: Because I'm growing this brand and was there times I went to my husband like I need another thirty thousand dollars? Probably so. And because one of the things I specifically had chosen is I did not want, and I currently still don't want, to pull in private equity, vc any type of third party investor funding. That is a personal decision I've made and it's because I am a former accountant and I'm extremely financially conservative and I also don't want different incentives to help influence how I run my business, different incentives to help influence how I run my business, and what I mean by that is I personally just didn't want to have a PE company saying you need to do these three things because your multi, your EBITDA needs to look like this and your revenue growth needs to look like that. Right, so I could have we could have easily grown really fast, like a lot of brands do, and grown themselves out of business, or, but I chose the path to grow really conservatively Now, and so I think I say all that to say I think, yes, financially speaking, having the bandwidth to be able to float yourself and your company for a while is critical, and so don't take the leap if you're still, if you're at your job today, living paycheck to paycheck right, you have to have a cushion. Your job today, living paycheck to paycheck right, you have to have a cushion. So what that means is, maybe if you're trying to start the company, then you're running your business while you're living paycheck to paycheck and oh, by the way, you gotta stop living paycheck to paycheck because you got to start to build that cushion, right. So some of the you got to make sacrifices and I think that's the hard thing. Not everyone's willing to make the financial sacrifice that it takes to really run and grow a business without third party support. Now, in today's world, you can go get bc capital funding and you know money is flowing, or at least it was, you know but there, but there's sacrifices, but there's sacrifices with that, and so, yeah, that's great advice, you know. Chris: The other thing that you mentioned, as you were evaluating companies is one of my favorite words when it comes to business is passion. You passed on a ton of things because you weren't passionate about it. Renee: Yeah. Chris: You found something you were passionate about, and I think that's a lesson for people too, right Is? It's not easy to do. As you mentioned. Sacrifices have to be made. So if you're not really passionate about that decision to go be an entrepreneur, start your own business. It's going to be tough. Renee: Yeah, it's going to be tough, and so, because I have to wake up every day, I my passion is really helping people solve problems, and I do that through hair, because hair is a problem in the curly hair community. How do I maintain frizz? How do I keep it under control? How do I keep it healthy so it doesn't break? How do I keep it healthy so it can grow? How do I stop the scalp irritation? There's so many problems that happen in hair and so I what I think about. Like literally yesterday I was with my marketing team and we're talking about a campaign for the next month for products etc. Or really November, and I said, OK, what problem are we helping her solve? And that's literally the way I think about stuff what problem are we helping her solve? Because if we're not helping her solve a problem, then I don't have anything to talk about. Chris: Ok, Right, yeah, it's not going to move off the shelf. Renee: It's not going to move off the shelf thing to talk about. Chris: Okay, right, yeah, it's not going to move off the shelf. It's not going to move off the shelf. So another thing that you kind of alluded to, you went through somewhat. It sounds like a kind of transforming the business that you took over, right? You mentioned the product label and packaging. Let's talk. What else did you, you know, in taking that business over, did you find yourself having to change, and how did you go about making those decisions? Are either prioritizing them and you know we can't do it all- at once yeah, so what walk? us through some of the learning you went through that well, you know what's interesting is. Renee: So it wasn't much of a transformation, but it was. If you think about learning from a marketing standpoint, if you're going to buy a business, especially a consumer product company, and you buy it in today's world where we're so used to knowing who the owner is the first people don't like change. So one of the first things I had to do was convince our current customers that nothing had changed other than the label. The minute your package changes and it looks different, they're like the formulas have changed, it's not the same be the same. It's not the same product. So the first thing I had to do was convince them that this is the same product. In fact, I brought back discontinued SKUs that the receiver had stopped selling because they were slow moving. **Chris: How did you go about convincing the existing customer base? Nothing changed. Renee: So news articles, facebook articles, facebook social ads, like having live conversations, going live on social media all of those were things that I had to go in and dispute or Dubuque being like I was the person respond. There was no team, it was me and one other person. The first person I hired was a social media person. Okay, wasn't a warehouse person, it was a social media person because I knew being the being in the face of the customer was so important. So being live and answering questions online, answering the phone and people would call they will go. I heard that this wasn't the same formula. No, ma'am, it's the same formula. And actually having those, it was me having those live, one-on-one conversations. And so I think really touching the customer and being personal with her was the key to our success in in gaining that confidence. And we also you know this was early in the days of influencers we also had to partner with people to be able to talk about. Like it's the same stuff, guys, this is the bottle. This is the old bottle. This is the new bottle. This is both sides of my hair, no change. Chris: Okay, okay, very smart to especially, like you said, I mean so many people now the social media influencers have such impact on what products get picked up in the mainstream. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Chris:So let's move forward a little bit. Part of changing things new products. There's a level. You mentioned your marketing meeting yesterday. What do you do within the company to help kind of foster innovation and inspire your people to be innovative about the products? Renee: That's a tough one because it's hard. Here's the challenge that we have as a small company. As a small company, it's hard for me to afford to pay me like the equivalent of a me right. The woman or a man with the MBA in marketing who's got, you know, 10 years at Coca-Cola. I am oftentimes recruiting talent, that's learning and I'm teaching, as they, you know, grow up in our company and so innovation is really. You know, I'm usually in that meeting asking the provocative question Like do these assets, does this story come together like cohesively, what problems are we helping them solve? Like, I am there helping them think through and push their thinking a little bit forward. We'll sit and we just do brainstorming with, you know, little toys in the room and stuff to play with, but it's really just helping them kind of. All right, just toss some ideas out there. Let's just throw like what is this, what does this mean? What's her brand voice? What does she sound like? What does she look like? Like asking those questions to help them just kind of think outside of the box. Now, if she looks like this, so what kind of tone is she going to have? All right, so what would she say then? Okay, so let's talk about, like how then that manifests itself and how it shows up creatively, and so just helping them kind of drill down to the so what is really kind of the role I like to play. It's the role I'm playing right now because I'm looking for a marketing director. Chris: Okay, yeah, anybody listening out there. Renee: Anybody listening out there? Submit resumes. Chris: So you talked about some major players as partners that you have right, yeah. Target and Walgreens and CVS, et cetera. So let's talk a little bit about that. How did you go about? You kind of you told a little bit about Target, but what have you done and what have you found to be successful? And maybe strategies that weren't successful in forming those relationships, but maybe, even more importantly, fostering and maintaining those relationships. Renee: So forming on the forming side retailers. For those who may or may not know the space, they want to come to you in one of two ways either direct or indirect through a distributor. For a small brand like mine, it's usually hey, I don't want to service direct, I want you to go through a distributor. And usually it's because when you first launch, you're going to be in a handful of their stores not full distribution is what they call it so not in all 1700 Target stores, but I think we started out in a hundred and so we had to go through a third-party distributor, and so that distributor then opened the door to other national retailers for us. So if you're thinking about launching into a national retail partner and you're a small company like mine, your best route to market is finding a distributor that represents your category in a national retailer. So whether that's peanut butter, hair products, lotions, flat tires, whatever, so you have to go and find that distributor. So that was step one. Once we got that relationship, our job is to grow it by driving traffic through the stores and getting that sell through. If it's not generating units per store per week, it gets pulled right. So one person wisely said a retail shelf space is like real estate. Once you buy your home, you don't want to lose it to foreclosure. So once you've got that slot, my job is to defend those two slots. And when I say we're national retailers, we're not like a P&G where P&G dominates the shelf. We've got sometimes two slots, sometimes four, but we're not, we don't have 10. So our slots are really important for us at a retailer and so for me, maintaining the relationship comes back to driving the traffic to the store. But, more importantly, supply chain. So when I talked about growing too fast for some brands and having measured growth, it was very important for me because I understood I came from a consulting company, although I did did sales and marketing most of what we did as an organization was supply chain. I wasn't the supply chain person, but I like to say I knew enough to be dangerous when I bought Uncle Plunky's daughter. So because I understood supply chain, I knew that not, we could not risk. We needed to have safety stock, we need to have inventory levels that look like x, and so that's why I did what I called measured growth. And so you know the distributor may come to me and go. I can get you into Kroger, walmart. Nope, we're going to do one retailer a year, one big guy a year, because I need to make sure I can scale, I need to make sure my contract manufacturers can scale, I need to make sure my team knows what to do and they know how to execute and fulfill the requirements of that specific retailer and so that we are successful. So that was the way that we grew and that's kind of the way we've continued to grow. Chris: That's so smart, that discipline right. It's easier said than done, because you just start a company and you go a couple years not making any money, or what you do make you put back in the company and then you got all these great opportunities. Come at you once. Renee: It's easy to say yes yes, yes, yes and yes, but you can't fulfill those promises, no one will come back. And there are horror stories where brands have been like yes, I'll go into Target, walmart, kroger, heb, cvs and Walgreens all at the same time and they can't meet the demand or they launch and they don't have enough awareness in the consumer market to be able to support and drive the traffic in all of those stores. So you really have to focus on how you're going to grow, where you're going to grow, and how you're going to drive traffic into these markets and into those stores. Chris: I mean any details you can put behind that, just as some examples to make it a little more tangible of things that you did, things that you thought about. Okay, we have to get this right to kind of prove that we can go to the next level. Renee: Yes. So for Target we did a lot of in-store events, so we took Target. So imagine if I was doing replicating this across like five different retailers. But for Target back in the day, for social media was much more organic and less pay-per-play than it is now, right, so we would do like it's a 10-day countdown. You know, to Target we're launching in 10, 9, 8, like on social media, it was like running ads. Then we did a find us in the Target, so we would do these fun games on social media and our followers would have to find us in their local Target and if they found us and they won a gift card, so we were doing anything we could. We would do in-store events where we would just have a table popped up where you can try products, give away products, get coupons, you name it. We were doing it. Gotcha, we were doing events outside the store. Inside the store. I was rogue because I didn't have permission from Target to do this. I mean because that would have cost me tens of thousand dollars, right, Target, I hope you're not listening and so we would literally just grab a camera and kind of come in and we would kind of sneak our little basket through the store down the hall and we would sit in there and the manager would come like, oh, we're just doing some footage, and I would say I just launched and I'm really trying to help my business and they would get it because you know, their local store manager, and so they would allow us to do like a little bit of a, a little bit of a pop-up shop kind of thing, and they would allow it. Now, today they probably wouldn't allow it because we're probably a lot more disciplined, but 15 years ago, 10 years ago, they would allow it and so, yeah, so those are the things that we had to do. So imagine if I was doing that for sally, for walmart, for kro, all in the same year, and I'm still trying to drive the traffic right, because we were still a small brand. Chris: Sure. Renee: I still call us a small brand because you know, if I go to you and I say, have you heard of Uncle Funky's Daughter? And your answer is no, then I'm a small brand, right. If I say you cause, everybody's heard of Clorox, coca-cola, pepsi, all the things, right, lacroix, you name it, they've heard of it, they haven't heard of Uncle Funky's Daughter. And so we're still in constant mode of brand awareness, and so trying to build that brand awareness and drive demand in every retail shelf at the same time would have been a daunting task for a brand like ours. Chris: Sure, do you still have the Rice Village? No, okay, shut that down we shut it down. Renee: I shut it down when I bought the company. That was the condition of the acquisition, because the day that I went and discovered who the owner was of the brand and I was sitting there chatting up the guy, in about a four hour period that I was there, maybe three people walked into that door okay so that you know, my brain said all right, that's a like a revenue killer. I'm not, you're not driving revenue right you need to focus on driving traffic on the retail shelf, and so are. We have no physical retail store now. Will we once again one day, maybe in a different format? Right, because now you, my friends? Other people have said you guys should open up a salon, and I'm like so maybe we'll open up a salon where the products are available and featured, but a retail store exclusively focused on our products will not be in a timeline. Chris: Okay. So there's an example right of an idea from friends. Maybe you thought about it, of branching out from what's core to your business. So far you've said no because you haven't done it. Maybe it's still out there. Why have you not done that? And I guess what could you counsel some listeners if they're faced with that? Or maybe they've done it and trying to make it work Again. That's another danger point, right Before you kind of branch into something different. Renee: So there are two things what I think about. Again. I always go from management consultant first right when I think about my business. I don't think about it personally, right, I think about it objectively. So I can go deep in my vertical or I can go wide horizontally, and I can do both. And so right now, where we are as a brand, honestly, is we need to go deeper in R&D and innovation. So we have not had an opportunity to launch a new product since COVID, and so we're in the process of developing a new product, so that's my primary focus. A new product line so we're developing a new product line, so that's my front focus. New product line so we're developing a new product line, so that's my front focus. Then, as I start to think about adjacency, about how do we take our core and expand and pivot beyond. Do you go to Skin next and stay in consumer products and go into Skin? Do you go in the two places that I'm more actively looking at Skin is out there as a product extension, but that's still core to Uncle Funky's Daughter. Do you go and do you buy another small company within Rote Morris Consumer Group and now you build a portfolio of brands? Because that's, really what I wanted to do when I started Rote Morris Consumer Group. My vision is to have a portfolio of consumer goods brands that meet the needs of the community of color, whether it's beauty, so for beauty. So that could be hair, that could be skin, it could be makeup, it could be a variety of different things that help her solve her problems every day. So that's really the vision. And then I bought this building a couple years ago and we have this wonderful, amazing space, and so and I open up this space I'm looking around. What are we gonna do with the rest of this space? We have this whole first floor, we have a whole second floor that's unoccupied, and even before I bought the building, this idea of building talent and a pipeline of funky junkies is what we call our followers funky junkies yeah that's what we call our followers, our customers. But how do you start to build not only a pipeline of loyal customers but a pipeline of loyal users? And so I started thinking about what if you actually had a trade school? What if you actually started? What if you were the next Paul Mitchell for African-American hair products, right when there's a Paul Mitchell school and you're teaching natural hair instead of you know other treatments that they do, and those exist outside of Texas. There's one that exists in Houston, but not focused on natural hair, but focused on beauty school. And so for those people out there who choose to have a different path in life and not go to college, but they're looking for a vocation or trade school and they want to be a hairstylist or barber, do you create a space for them to be able to do that? So that's the second adjacency. And then the third adjacency is then do you go the other end? So I know how to do hair, I'm learning how to do hair, I've got hair products, I'm doing hair on the other side and that's where the salon comes in. So in all both ends of the spectrum, I am a deep analytical person, so it's understanding what's happening in the market. So in the salon side, you look and you have to figure out and this is for anyone right. You never take a leap in adjacencies just because you think you have the money, the capability, the resources, whatever. You have to understand what's happening in the market because you're not smarter than the whole market. You might be smarter than a couple people in the market, but not the whole market. And so when I look at the hair salon space, I knew of several people in the Houston market that had launched salons and they had failed. They had failed within a three-year cycle and they had failed because the type of offering service offering that they wanted to provide was challenging. And that's the same service offering that we would need to provide as a brand. Chris: Right. Renee: And resources and talent. Going back to this other end of the pipeline I was talking about, in the supply chain, those can be sometimes challenging resources to recruit and retain in a salon side, and so when I do the analysis, it's looking at the risk versus reward. How am I smarter than the next person? How do I learn from those failures and ensure that I can recruit talent where I'm not? I don't have a high degree of turnover. I can create brand consistency. I can create service levels that meet the needs of not only what I want to offer, but what our customers expect. I need to exceed it, and so, because I haven't gotten that magic formula yet, we're leaving the salon right here in the marketplace. Chris: It's still on the drawing board right. Still on the drawing board, I like. I like it well, as it should be, until you figure it out, right? Yeah well, so let's turn a little bit and talk a little more about you yeah in leadership. How would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's changed or evolved in the last 10 years? Renee: so I am a type a, hardcore type a. I am a driver and I know that about myself. But I also know that one of my weaknesses as a leader is I don't micromanage. What I have learned to evolve because of my consulting background, right In a consulting world you know 20 plus years is how I was trained. I'm a former salesperson. You just go get it done right, you know. So that is that's kind of like my bread and butter, and you have a team of type A's that are pretty much driven just like you are. So when you guys have a clear plan and you've got the end goal, all you're doing is managing the type A's to make sure that they get to the goal right at a very high level. No one needs to. You set meetings to review the spreadsheet and the spreadshe's done right. Fast forward to Uncle Funky's daughter. You set meetings to review the spreadsheet and it's like, oh, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, what you wanted me to do, so it requires much more. What I'm learning is it requires me to evolve my leadership style from one that's hands off, that's a little bit more hands-on, to make sure that my team understands where the bar of excellence is what our customers want from us, what the implications are when we miss deadlines, what the implications are if we ship the wrong product to the wrong customer, and so showing them and teaching them is where I've kind of learned. That's where my role is as a leader, really helping them really understand the implications of behaviors. And so I've evolved to from a leader that's I'm still. I still tell my team hey, I don't micromanage. If I have to, if I know it before you do, that's probably a problem, and so so they understand that, and so I think I'm still evolving my leadership style to adapt to a smaller company with a different team that thinks differently from the type A consultants with the MBAs that I'm used to working with, to the ones who you know maybe they don't have the MBA or maybe they're going to get it, or maybe they have a desire to get there, and so it really has required. It's a growth opportunity for me that I'm still learning to grow in, to be able to shift my mental mindset away from I got a team of driven people to I got a team that needs to be inspired, you know. Chris: Yeah, that's great. So what have you done to try to help you in the hiring process? Make sure you're making the best decision you can make about who you're bringing on your team? Renee: You know it's the hire slow, fire quick. Chris: Yes, another easier said than done. Renee: Easier said than done and that's where I am right now. Even in this open marketing director job that I'm looking for, it's really making sure I've gone through I go through so many, I go through all the resumes. My assistant will filter out the trash. But once she's filtered out the trash, I'm looking at those resumes going okay, is this someone who's going to? Because I'll openly say the reason I'm looking for a marketing director. I'll tell you this story. So I hire this person and she's from Adidas. She comes from Adidas background in marketing and she's Under Armour in marketing and she was in Latin America director of Latin America markets and she's just moved from Houston. So I'm thinking I've got a Latina because it's part of my demographic. That's awesome. She's got this global brand experience that's awesome. All in athleisure but transferable skills. It's marketing. She quits three months later, found another job in athleisure. So I interviewed, interviewed and found this one and this woman, you know, sold me on. I mean we had multiple conversations. I was like you know, sold me on. I mean, we had multiple conversations. I was like you know, hey. Chris: I'm really concerned about whether or not you know you can migrate from big company to this small company Cause it is a very valid concern. Renee: It's a big change. Right, you don't have a team. Your team is a team of three, not a team of 20. Right, and so your role really changes. And so she. You know, she convinced me that, but the lesson learned was that you know my spidey senses. I didn't listen to them. Like my spidey senses said, she may not stay. Like there were little things that happened along the way you get enamored with all the other stuff. Right, but I was so hungry to have a big company, someone to come in to show my team other than me, for them to hear it from someone other than me that this is what marketing looks like, Right, this is the marketing discipline that we need to have. And so she came in. She brought some marketing discipline. She heard that, you know she brought some value in the three months, but it was. It's been really a painful learning process, right, because now I'm short of marketing director, I'm stepping in, yeah, yeah. Chris: Well, what you alluded to there, right, is just the cost hard cost and soft cost when you make a bad hiring decision yeah Because you know you're having to fill the role or someone else. Renee: Yep, so that distracts, you, it's me right now. Chris: It distracts you from doing your full-time else. Yep, so that distracts you. It's me right now. It distracts you from doing your full-time job. Yep, you're now spending time going through resumes and going to be interviewing and you wasted, if you will, all the time on the one that only lasted three months. Yeah, so there's a lot of cost there. There's a lot of cost there. Renee: And then you're sitting there and knowing I've got to restart this whole process, I've got to try to maintain the momentum within my team this is the second marketing person they've had in the past year so and so how do you start to just kind of manage through that and so, instead of and when you get burned, that one time, as I'm looking at resumes, I'm looking at people with deep experience in a particular industry and I'm going oh nope. Chris: Learn, that is, that there's that bias creep right you're. You have to not let yourself penalize these people you've never met, just as they might look the same on paper yeah, as the one bad actor in the group. Renee: Yeah, and so you and you're right, and so I'm going well, and I'm having these conversations and then yeah, so it's just. Yeah, I think that's like one hiring, firing, hiring slow, firing quick. Chris: Sometimes, even when you hire slow, you still get I tell people it's part science, it's part art and it's the more process I think you can put in place and follow the better. But you're never going to be 100 right and I think figuring out the characteristics that work in your organization is something that you can incorporate into your hiring process and know that this is the kind of background traits, characteristics that thrive here. Renee: Yeah, and even and I would also say, listening to that, you know, those spidey senses that are coming with those thoughts creep in like, and they were coming like there were things, there were triggers that happened through the hiring process. Then I was like I'm not sure she's going to be a good fit. Like you know, for example, she called and said hey, can I work from home? I was like no, you cannot work from home. So that was like that was. Oh, renee, we're gonna do a whole episode on work from home. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And so those were the triggers of like, okay, she might not be the good fit. And when those were the when that happens to you, you got to listen to it and like and be okay with backing out. But I didn't listen to the trigger because we were so far down in the negotiation and I should have just said, you know, I don't think this is going to work out Right, and rescinded the offer. But I had already extended the offer, right, and I didn't want to have egg on my face. Chris:Sure. Renee: So I mean I, what I should have done is just let my ego go, rescinded the offer and continue to look. Chris: Yeah, or at least be upfront about this is starting to give me concerns. Here's why. Renee: Yeah. But I you know you know it's which I did that I did that okay, she covered it up she covered that up. She told me exactly what I wanted to hear, but still the those doubts were in my head and I should have listened to my gut. And that gut is a powerful thing. You know that, maxwell Galt, maxwell Galt Gladwell, it's a powerful thing. And if, when you listen to it, you're usually right, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Chris: Renee, this has been a fascinating conversation. Just to wrap it up, I have a few just personal things. I always like to ask yeah, what was your first job as a kid? Renee: Newspaper. I was a newspaper girl. You had a newspaper route? Yes, Absolutely I did. I'll be darned. My sister got up in the morning and helped me through my newspapers. Chris: You're not the first guest. That was their first job it was fairly common. Renee: You had to make me dig deep for that one. Chris: Okay, you made me dig deeper on this one. Sometimes people say this is the hardest question. Yeah, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Renee: Barbecue no sauce Seasoned, very well seasoned, no hesitation. Chris: No, no hesitation and the woman knows what she wants. Yes, right. Renee: Don't bring me brisket with sauce on it. No. Chris: No sauce Extra seasoned. Renee: I want seasoned brisket, the moist kind. Okay, and, by the way, I'm not a Texan, but I moved to Texas and now I've been here 15 years and now it's like brisket barbecue. It's the only thing that I eat. Chris: I eat it's the only thing I want to eat. I might die of a heart attack, but it's the only thing I want to eat. I love it All right. So because you have four kids and I know your life's running crazy, this will be more of a fantasy. Renee: Yeah, if you could take. Chris: If you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go? What would you do? Renee: Oh, I would be somewhere, probably in South Africa, in the, probably on a safari. I would tour safaris. I would go South Africa, kenya. I want to see the migration of animals. I would do that. Chris: I love it. Renee: That's where I would be. Chris: Renee, thank you so much for being on. This has been just a pleasure getting to know you and hear your story. Renee: Thank you. This is awesome. I listened to NPR how I built this. So this is like my. I feel like I'm excited. I've kind of done the NPR check. I like the how I built this check. Do you listen to that? Chris: I do, I do, I love it. I love that analogy. Renee: Yeah, it's great. Chris: Thanks again. Renee: Thanks for doing this. Special Guest: Renee Morris.

On this episode, my guest is Craig Slee, a disabled writer, consultant and theorist dealing with mythology, folklore, magic and culture, exploring life through the lens of landscape, disability and fugitive embodiments.He has contributed essays and poetry focusing on the numinous and disability to various anthologies including The Dark Mountain Journal. Craig has also co-facilitated multiple seminar series at the Dresden Academy for Fine Arts, regarding ableism in the arts, as well as how ableism affects our relationship to space. In 2023 he was one of the speakers at the World Futures Studies Federation 50th Anniversary Conference, introducing the concept of (Dis)abling Futures. Craig resides in the northwest of England.Show NotesCornwall and the Seasons Who Gets to Decide What it Means to Know a Place?The Folding in of Identity to TourismA Question of Productive vs Generative AbilityAbleism and AttentionFinger Bending and the Freedom of MovementRedefining and Remembering Other Forms of MovementWhat is Stillness?The Dance of MountainsObeying LimitsHomeworkCold Albion (Craig's Blog)Goetic Atavisms (Hadean Press)Craig's Blue Sky Page | Facebook PageTranscriptChris: Welcome to the End of Tourism, Craig. Craig: Thank you for having me. Chris: Yes, it's great to be able to speak with you today. I've been ruminating for a couple of years now as to the themes that we might speak of. And I was introduced to you via a mutual friend and have come closer to your work via the Emergence Network's online gathering, We Will Dance With Mountains, in the last quarter of 2023.And so, to begin, I'd like to ask you first where you find yourself today and what the world looks like for you, where you are. Craig: Where I find myself today is by the canal in my flat, looking out the window, just as evenings coming in, in the northwest of England, in Lancaster, and it's chilly here which is actually a good thing, I guess, these days.Chris: Perhaps I could ask you to elaborate a little bit on what Lancaster looks like, but I know that, you know, from our conversations previous that you grew up [00:01:00] in Cornwall, a place that was previously, a town, an area devoted to fishing and mining, and from what you've told me, it's also become a massive tourist trap that you know, from the little that I've seen online, that the area receives around 5 million visitors a year, and tourism makes up about a quarter of the local economy.So I'm curious what you've seen change there and what do you think has happened to Cornwall and its people as a result and maybe there's something in there as well regarding Lancaster. Craig: Yeah, so I should emphasize this. I was born in Cornwall. My family has been lived down there for many many generations anyway and my father's side of the family actually, at various points, worked in the tourist trade as well before they went on to other things.And, [00:02:00] yeah, I mean, I left because, frankly, there was no jobs that weren't tourism. I came to Lancaster to study because one, I have a physical disability which means that Cornwall is a very rural area, so you need to drive everywhere, and that's fine, I drove at that point, but for good or ill, a more urban center was better for me later in life as I left.But the way that it shifted, even in the years when I was growing up, was that, you know, essentially was a rural area where nothing really happened socially or culturally that much until the summer seasons. So, you were very, very aware of the seasons in terms of, you'd have visitors [00:03:00] starting, and that was when the town would wake up, and then it was kind of dead for the rest of the year, so it was very much one of those things where the tourist trade has actually made me more aware of human rhythms in the natural world than perhaps I would have been, because it's so based on seasonal stuff.And just looking at the way the infrastructure because a lot of the towns and areas, they boomed a little bit well, quite a lot in certain areas with the tin mining of the 19th century. But a lot of the architecture and things like that was 19th century. So you had small villages and slightly larger towns, and they have very, well, I guess some people, if they were tourists, would call "quaint, narrow streets."And when you have that many visitors, in the summer, you can't get down the streets. [00:04:00] You can't drive it because it's full of people walking. You know, there's an interesting anecdote I'd like to recount of when my father, he was a vicar, he was a priest, moved to a new area he would go to the local pub and all the locals would greet him as the priest and be like, very polite.And then when it would come out that my dad was actually a local, that he was born down there and part of the family, everybody would relax. And there was this real sort of strange thing where people came and stayed because it was a lovely area, but there was still that whole issue with second homes and certainly keeping an eye on things from a distance here during the pandemic when people left cities during the pandemic, they went down there amongst places in Britain.And that meant that, [00:05:00] literally, there were no houses for newly starting teachers, you know, teachers who had got jobs and were moving down there, couldn't find places to live because during the 2020 and sort of 2022 period, everything was just opening up either as Airbnb because there was this influx from the cities to the more rural areas because it was supposedly safer.You know, and I feel like that's a reflex that is really interesting because most people think of it as, oh, "a tourist area," people go there for leisure, they go there to relax and get away from their lives, which is true, but under a stressful situation like a pandemic, people also flee to beautiful quotes isolated areas, so there's that real sense of pressure, I think and this idea that we weren't entirely sure, growing up, [00:06:00] whether we would have a place to live because a lot of the housing was taken up by people with second homes. And plenty of people I went to school with because it's a surfing area took the knowledge that they learned in the tourism trade, and actually left and went to Australia. And they live on the Gold Coast now. So it's this self perpetuating thing, you know? Chris: Well, that leads me to my next question, which kind of centers around belonging and being rooted and learning to root, maybe even becoming a neighbor or some might say a citizen of a place.And with tourism or a touristic worldview, we seem to be largely stunted in our ability to know a place, to become part of that place in any significant or enduring sense of the word. And so, I'm curious what your thoughts are on what it means to know a place, [00:07:00] and perhaps on the often mad rush to say I know a place for the sake of social capital, you know, given the context of the kind of relative difficulties that one might incur, or in a place like Cornwall, and the relative degree of exile that forces people out.What do you think it means to know a place in the context of all of these economic pressures denying us that possibility, or at least making it really, really difficult. Craig: I think we have a real problem in modernity with the idea of knowing as a sense of capture, right? So if I know you, I have this boundary of this shape, this outline of Chris, right, that I can hold, that I can grasp. And I think sometimes when we say, "oh, I know a place," or, "oh, I know a person" there's no concept of the [00:08:00] ongoing relationality. You know, you capture the image and then you keep it. And it's a whole construct of extractive knowledge that really, I think, comes down to the idea that the humans are the ones who get to decide what a place is, right?So. I could say in the standard sense, "Oh, I know Cornwall because I, you know, I grew up there for nearly 20 years." My family has been there since about the 1500s. You know, "I know a place, it's in my bones." Yada yada yada. All the metaphors you want to use. But the fact of the matter is, the place itself influences me more than I influence it. So there's this strange sense of belonging in which modernity [00:09:00] says "I belong" or "it belongs to me" rather than perhaps the place has extended hospitality to me and allowed me to grow and I could live/work in a place for 30 years and never know it because we're not comfortable as a culture with the idea of going, "I don't know this place."And it's a variety. It's always changing. And I think about all the times I used to watch the sea and talk to folks whose parents were fishermen or lifeboatmen, and they'd be like, "Yeah, we know the waters, but the waters can change. We know roughly what they do under certain conditions, but we don't know them completely, because they can always surprise us."And So, when somebody says, "oh, you're from Cornwall, you're a Cornishman," and all that sense of identity, [00:10:00] I'm like, "yeah, but that's, that's both really fluid for me, because, you know, there's a lot of history." Is it the tourist world of the 20th and 21st century, or is it the farming and the mining that goes back to the Neolithic?How we relate to a place purely in a modern sense isn't, to my mind anyway, the only way to conceive of belonging because, even though I'm now 300 miles away from there, I have its isotopes, its minerals from drinking the water in my teeth, you know. So, on some level, the idea that you have to be in a place also to belong to a place is something that I'm curious about because, there's this whole notion, [00:11:00] "you're only in the place and you've been in a place for this long and that means you know it and you're local." Whereas growing up, there was this sort of weird thing where it was like, "yeah, you might have been here 30 years and everybody knows you, but you're not a local." Right? You still belong, but there was this other category of " you're not local or something like that."And so it's complicated, but I really do, for my personal take, tend to look at it as a, the landscape, or wherever it is, influences my sense of belonging in a non human context, or more than human context, if that makes sense. Chris: Hmm. Yeah, there's so much there. Yeah. I mean, I'm also, in the context of identity, also wondering in what ways, not only has the tourism industry shaped one's identity of being local, which [00:12:00] is, I think, a huge issue in over touristed places in the last, you know, 10 or 20 years, as identity politics rises into the mainstream, and but then also not just the industry and the interaction with foreigners or, or guests, or tourists, but the way in which the image of that place is crafted through, often, ministries of culture or heritage, you know, so you could grow up in a place that isn't necessarily overly touristed or anything like that. But then have your identity crafted by these ideas of culture or heritage that the government's, federal and otherwise, have placed on people.Craig: And especially because where I come from, Cornwall, actually had its own language, which died out, which was on the verge of dying out in the 19th century. And slowly there are more speakers of it now. And you go back there now and you'll find, [00:13:00] even when I was growing up it wasn't so prevalent, but you'll find a lot of the signs for the street signs will have the English and the Cornish.So that's where the government has embraced this identity and enhanced it after people have been saying, you know, "this is a language we've rebuilt it. It's cousin to Welsh and Breton. We should use it. It's part of our identity and it's got folded into that." And so the infrastructure itself is now been part of that. You know, those very same streets have a name that wasn't known for like, 50, 60, maybe to 80 years, and suddenly people are now deliberately using the old names in non English languages because of that. And it's very strange because, especially in the UK, what with all [00:14:00] of Brexit and all that, there is a very weird sense wherein the rest of England, i. e. North and London and those sort of areas don't understand because Cornwall was a peripheral area and much like Wales, there's a lot of distrust of central government. Hmm. So, you've got this whole construction of a personal identity of nobody actually really understands what goes on outside. Either they're incomers, either they're emmets. You know, which "emmets" is the old English for "ants." Referring to tourists as ants in a kind of, yeah, they get everywhere. And the whole notion of who we are is always constructed. But in that case, going away and coming back to visit, I'm going, "Well that street didn't [00:15:00] have that label on it when I left. But it does now. And so in a certain sense it's the same place, but it's got this overlay of somewhere different that really enhances that sense of layers for me of "which Cornwall?" "Which of any of these places are we talking about?"Like you say, is it the one you see on a picture postcard or an Instagram or is it the ones who sat there as kids going, right, 'there's nothing to do, let's go and drink in a field?' You know and all of these things can co exist.Chris: Hmm, right. Yeah, I just interviewed a friend of mine, Christos Galanis, who did his PhD on hillwalkers, as well as homecomers in the Scottish Highlands, so people who spend their weekends climbing, summiting the Highland Mountains, and also the Canadian or Americans who travel to Scotland on heritage trips or ancestral [00:16:00] journeys. And he mentioned how in the Highlands that the governments have placed the original Gaelic place names on all of the the signs there, whether you're entering a village or perhaps on the street signs as well.And that he said that something like "only three percent of the of the people in Scotland actually speak, speak Gaelic," so they see the sign, they see the name, the vast majority of people, and they have no idea what it means. And I also remember the last time I was in Toronto, which is where I'm from originally, or where I grew up.And my family grew up in the east end of town, and the main thoroughfare in the east end of town is largely referred to as "Greek Town." You know, when I was a kid it was certainly Greek Town. The Greek letters, the Greek alphabet names as well as the English names of the street signs in that area.But it's much, much, much less Greek than it was 25 years ago, right? So again, [00:17:00] this question of like, is that to some extent trying to solidify the kind of cultural geography of a place. That people come to that street and that neighborhood because they want to experience Greekness in its diasporic kind of context.And yet, so many of those people, so many of those families have moved on or moved along or become more Canadian in their own sense of the word, so. Craig: Yeah. It's very strange as well because things like that attract... there's a loop obviously, because you'll get people coming to experience the greekness or the cornishes, and people will be like, oh, we should open a business that will enhance the greekness or the Cornish of the place, and that will draw, and it just becomes this thing and, yeah.Yeah, it's very strange. And I would totally agree with you on that one. Chris: Yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. Until like a Greek person from Greece or a Cornish grandmother comes into town and says like, what? No, that's not Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I'd like to shift the conversation, Craig, a little bit towards ableism, and begin with this question that comes from our dear mutual friend Aerin and who admits that she's happily robbed it directly from Fiona Kumari Campbell.Yes. So, you might have heard this question before but she she felt the need to kind of pose it anew and and so the question is this. How does disability productively color our lives and Aerin wanted to ask it, to modify it slightly and ask, how does disability generatively or creatively color our lives? Craig: I can't speak to anybody's life other than my own really. But I would say that for me disability has, [00:19:00] one, given me a real sort of ability to look at the world and go, "you guys think this is how everything works and it clearly doesn't."You know, it has given me a generative gift of going, "hold on, what people think of the default really isn't the default, because I was never born as the default, and so I've had to find my own way of relating to the world" and that means that anybody goes anytime anybody goes "Oh, well, everybody knows..." or "the only way to do it is this?" I am always going "are you absolutely sure about that?" You know, "are you absolutely sure that what you're looking at or experiencing or noticing is only perceivable in one way, it's only ever [00:20:00] frameable, in one context?" But also this idea for me that disability is simply a fact.It's not good or bad. It is a thing that exists in the world and ableism is essentially the urge to measure against the vast field of disability and impairment and go, "We don't want that. That's the worst thing to be. So, we will strive to not be that." As Fiona Kumari Campbell would say, " It sets up a ranking and notification and prioritization of sentient life."So, this is why we, to a certain extent, we have such a obsession with youth culture. Young, healthy, fit folks are in some way better than the elderly. Oh god, nobody wants [00:21:00] to get old cause, if you're of white extraction, "oh, they'll probably stick you in a home."Nobody wants to conceive of the idea that actually you can have a generative and intimate relationship with somebody, not necessarily a romantic one, but a deep, deep friendship that also involves, frankly to put it crudely, perhaps wiping somebody's arse, right? There's this whole notion of messiness and failure and why Aerin reworded it from "productive" to "generative" is that whole idea of being productive, of having capitalist use, to produce, to make for purposes. And for me, disability and the field of disability in which I exist says "I exist and I don't have to be productive." it really [00:22:00] challenges the capitalist framework for me. And also, ableism, because it's set up to rank things like speed, mobility, all kinds of things like that, having a disability where you're sitting there going, but there are other ways to do this. There are other ways to exist. To notice the way our bodies move that are mostly ignored in the sense of "yeah, we don't pay attention to our posture or our muscle structure or what our guts are doing because we're all already forced along to the next thing.You know, we're already touring from, "okay, I've got up in the morning. Next thing I've got to do is have breakfast," right? And if you can easily shift between those stages, so you get up in the morning, start your breakfast, put your clothes on easily. [00:23:00] You don't think about it as much, but if it takes you 10, 20 minutes to even get out of bed and you have to do specific things, maybe exercises, maybe things like that, the whole process thickens.And in a sense, for me, it's an antithesis to escapism because there are things you cannot escape. There are things you have to deal with. And because there are things you have to deal with, you have to pay attention to them more. And that means the most ordinary mundane thing becomes or can become, if you're willing to gently sense it, a lot richer.So, this is one of those interesting things where if people want to go places to experience new things, Okay, that's a whole issue that you've obviously talked about throughout the podcast, but there is a certain sense in [00:24:00] which we don't even know where we started from. We've not explored our own bodies.I mean, I wrote a piece in 2020 when all the lockdowns hit that got shared around various bits of the internet and I think even in the newspaper at one point in, but I got a request to syndicate it, of how to exist when you're stuck in your house. You know, what do you do to "keep," in inverted commas, "sane," which, of course, is an ableist framework, but what do you do to stop yourself from losing mental health? How do you function? And I broke it down and I sort of made practical suggestions of, this is how I, as somebody that doesn't actually have a, quotes, "normal life," and spends a lot of his time unable to travel or go out much, stops myself from feeling isolated, [00:25:00] because I've ended up having to learn to explore what some might regard as a limited domain.But to me, that limited area, that limited domain has given me this sense of vastness that's, you know, I can't remember which philosopher it is, but there is a philosopher who basically says, I think it is a Camus, who says "you just need to reopen when you're in your room and the whole world will reveal itself to you."And when you don't have a choice, when you're stuck in chronic pain, or sickness, or something like that and you have to work out what to do with your limited energy, to embrace life, there becomes a sort of challenge, to go, "okay, how can I feel like things are enriching? How can I, almost metabolize the things that other people would reject.⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.You know, [00:26:00] because disability is so "Oh, it's so sad he's disabled. Or we've got the cure for this and that. And we've got to cure it." And it's not really about ameliorating suffering. Which is a good thing. It's an analoid good to ameliorate any form of suffering. But there is this sense that the only way to perceive the world is through a so called "non disabled" abled body.The only way to experience a rich world, and again, I'm not knocking people who do a lot of travelling per se, but the only way to experience the world is to go on long journeys, and backpack and explore you know, new ways of thinking. That's great. And I'm not saying you can do exactly the same at home, but you can also become radically hospitable to yourself and to the environment in which you find [00:27:00] yourself.And that opens a whole lot of doors that I think I would regard as generatively colouring life and revealing life. In a way that was possibly occluded before. Chris: Yeah, I mean, so much of what I've come to in the research around tourism and hypermobility is this question of limits.And that certainly comes up in other themes, in other contexts. But not just the limits to one's place. Like, where does your place end? But also the limits of the human body. And, when we talk about freedom generally in the West, or in, in the context of modernity, it's so often pinned or underpinned via the freedom of movement, in part, because I know you're coming from the other side of the Atlantic, but certainly in, in this part of the [00:28:00] world, in the Americas and especially North America, freedom is understood as freedom of movement because that's in part how, the states and, and the nation's existences are justified.And so, I would just ask you what you think of that in the context of freedom being, of course a synonym for liberation. And how so many of our western notions of freedom are attached to movement and have. To a large degree become glorified in the hyper mobility of our times.Craig: I would agree with you. I think it was always there because of the colonial urge, but I think North American notions of freedom have, through a certain cultural hegemony, filtered back. You get it in the media, even Star Trek, you know, the final frontier, you know. Things like that. Or wide open spaces. There's still this notion of, freedom to move, room to live. It has its own European context and [00:29:00] horrors, unfortunately.But also, I think the notion of freedom as freedom to move. There is a question there for me, because I'm not sure we know what we're doing when we move. Right? And one of the questions that always was raised for me is, if I raise my finger, as I'm doing now, and I bend it so it's 90 degrees, how did I do that?What did I do? Well, science would say, okay, you used all your tendons and so on and so forth, and I'm like, yeah, "okay, those are nice descriptors. But what did I actually do?" Where's the connection between the impulse and the urge to bend my finger? Right. I don't know what I did there. I just thought I'm gonna bend my finger and the [00:30:00] finger bent But there's a whole bunch of stuff going on.So when I'm thinking about freedom of movement First the question is, "freedom to move in what way?" Right? So the the classic example is, in perhaps North America and and English speaking countries is "to go where I want, when I want, with none to to gainsay me, none to say you can't go there," which has been problematized thanks to the history of enclosure of land and capture by state and political actors, but also this notion that if you get into a city and you can go and people go, "Oh, I'm free to go wherever I want."I always sit there and I'm going, "yes, but you can go wherever you want, but if a place has stairs and no lift..." right? I [00:31:00] can't go there. So do I have less freedom? Well, according to the traditional notions of freedom, yes. I am less free. When I grew up, as an example in the UK I went to America when I was about four or five, and I was absolutely stunned by the amount of public toilets that had a disabled toilet.Right? Because virtually nowhere where I grew up at that point had a disabled toilet. This was due to the fact that the U. S. has a disability rights movement that was slightly ahead of the U. K. 's. So I was freer to go about my holiday in the U. S. than I was technically at home. I couldn't go certain places because there weren't toilets, or there weren't ramps, because that had not been legalized. You know, there'd been no legislation. In the UK, there was [00:32:00] no disability legislation until 1995. You know, so technically, I was born in 1981. I had no specific extra legal rights that I needed for 14 years. Now some would say, "oh, that, you've got freedom there... the law has given you freedom.It's giving you the ability to move, but it's only given me the ability to move in approved ways, right? And so every single time somebody talks about room to move, my query is always, okay. "One, as I said, move in what way? And two, who taught you what method of movement is approved or disproved?" So, particularly in Europe, we have folks like the Romani, the Irish travellers, [00:33:00] even the so called New Age travellers, right, who are nomadic folks.And despite this obsession with freedom, the idea that people are nomadic, are shiftless and rootless, still exists. Yes, a degree. The degree of privilege, the degree that I could be, quote, "more confident going into public spaces." And you'll see this in American history and throughout European history as well.And when I was talking about the nomadic folks, I was saying, you know, there are only certain people who are allowed to move in certain ways, to travel in certain ways that are approved. In similar ways with disability there were only certain kinds of people who were allowed into public spaces.They might not have been legislated against in the mid twentieth century. They might have struck those off the books, but at [00:34:00] various points, at least in the US, if you look up the Chicago Ugly Laws, people who were regarded as vagrants or unsightly, were not allowed in public spaces. They could be jailed for that.It's not just loitering. It was very much anything that could give offense because they were physically disabled. Or, the idea that the physically disabled are more likely to be begging or doing things like that. That was all folded in. So, this notion of freedom as the ability to move and move in space.Despite the North American urge to be like, "well, nobody can tell me what to do." There's still a certain level of certain forms of movement are privileged or regarded as normal versus others. So, you know it's weird if you don't stay [00:35:00] in one place or perhaps, it's weird if you don't have a reason for your seasonal job, right?When I was a kid and a teenager... like I said, where I grew up was kind of known for surfing, right? And I met folks who would come from places like Australia and live in Volkswagen transporter vans and work in the seasonal hotels and then go surfing. And then sometimes in the winter they disappear off to Morocco.And you wouldn't see them for six months and they'd come back and there's all this kind of idea of Differing rhythms, which has really influenced my entire life because those folks, they were there there were hundreds of them you could see them parked on every road and I knew several of them very very well, but the fact of those seasonal rhythms, which weren't [00:36:00] approved. It wasn't approved that they didn't stay in one place and pay taxes. To some that might be, you know, "Oh, that's freedom! That's telling the government, I don't have to pay your taxes or I don't have to stay in one place and be a registered visible citizen. I can be a free spirit and go to Morocco whenever I want. But, the fact of it is, if you walked on the, on the roads, people would look at you funny, right?If you look at people who do long distance walking in areas that are drivable, I mean, especially I guess in North America, that's looked at as very, very, very strange, because you guys don't have the infrastructure. So, for me, it's this really strange notion that we're fixated on particular kinds of movement to do with agency and power, right?And we, we will say, "oh, [00:37:00] that's mobile, that's fast, that's quick, that's agile." And I'm always curious about what criteria we're using to say, "oh, that's fast, that's agile, that's nimble," when you look at the so called natural world, and you've got plants that are seemingly immobile, but they actually turn to the sun.You just don't notice it until you stick it on a stop motion camera. And then you're like, "wow, they move." But you could go past that plant every single day and be like, "yeah, it doesn't move. It's a plant. It just stays there." Right? Because our perception of what movement is and what is approved is based around one, what we're taught and two, what we see every day.But also three. What we can't notice unless we're forced to look at the same thing over and over again, right? [00:38:00] Because our tendency is to see one thing, think, "Oh, I know it. I've spotted it. I know what it is. I've identified it. It's fitted into my matrix of identity. I can move on now. It's all sorted." But the whole ethos, I guess, that I'm coming at iswhat if you don't know? What if you don't know? What if that microphone that I'm speaking into and you're speaking into it looks like a particular thing and you think you could describe a microphone to somebody but go down to say the flows of the electrons and it's a context issue. You know? And, and So, I'm interested in thinking about what are the contexts are in the room with us right now that we're not even paying any attention to, and not even in the room, in our own bodies, in our own language.Chris: Wow. Yeah, again, there's so much there. My [00:39:00] my thoughts just flew off into a million different directions. And I feel like it would probably take me a while to to gather them in.Craig: No problem. You do what you need to do. I mean, that's, that's the whole point. Chris: Yeah. So I had a queer crip travel writer named Bani Amor on the podcast in season three.And we were talking about the fallout and the consequences of the COVID 19 pandemic. And she said something like, you know, "the settler can't stay still. That the pandemic showed us that we can't stay still." In the context of that time that so many people who had been engaged in and who glorify or who simply have been taught to live a hyper mobile life, that there was this opportunity to question [00:40:00] that, to bring it into a different context.And I know a lot of people, couldn't necessarily leave their houses in the quote unquote lockdowns. But I don't think that wouldn't necessarily stop people from tending to or allowing themselves to witness the more than human world in that way. And so, my question is, assuming we have the opportunity, in some manner, in any manner, how do you think we might have our understandings of movements subverted, or at least challenged, by virtue of looking at the movement in the more than human world.Craig: Great question. I think one of the biggest notions, and I just want to return to that phrase, "the settler can't stay still." And really, agree with that, and so add to secondary things of what actually is stillness, right? We have [00:41:00] this idea of stillness as immobility, as, as, as perhaps staying in one place.Not moving, but actually, if we look at what we're doing when we're actually apparently still, there's still movement going on, right? There's still movement going on in our bodies. There's still a different kind of mobility going. And we're not the only ones, right? The more than human does this exactly as well.If you look at a rock, oh, you think a rock doesn't move? I mean, it doesn't move, but then you have erosion, right? Then you have the rain, and the way that particles are shaved off it, and it shifts. So, when we're thinking about outside, when we're thinking about... and when I say "more than [00:42:00] human," I'm not saying "better than human," I'm saying "exceeding the human," I just want to make that clear, it exceeds the boundaries of the human. Disability as mutual friend Bayo would define it is, I believe he said "it's a failure of power to contain itself." So, that's Bayo Akomolafe. And this notion that the world and the modern human flows through and beyond any sort of boundary, right? So, any outline we form is not immune in the sense of there's no boardwalk, right?A wall is not an untouchable upright edifice. It's actually touched and permeated, right? So everything in the more than human context interrelates and is, to a certain extent, degrees of [00:43:00] permeable. So, yeah, our cells keep certain things out, and let certain things in, but even the things they keep out, they're in contact with.They're relating to. Right? Because in the same way, with COVID 19 vaccine, people think, "oh, it's a vaccine. It's immunity, right? It'll stop me getting COVID. Or it'll stop me getting this, or stop me getting that." What it actually does is it has an interaction with your, the vaccine has an interaction with your immune system.There's a dialogue, there's a discussion, a call and response, which then engenders further responses in your body, right? So, there's constant relation that is ongoing. So, nothing is one and done, right? To borrow from Stefano Hani and Fred Moten No motion is ever completed, right? Nothing's [00:44:00] ever finished. It's not like we're gonna get off this and, and you'll be like, "oh, I've finished recording the podcast." Sure, you've hit the stop recording button, but the recording of the podcast is still ongoing. And there's this fundamental ongoingness, which is a product of the world.The world is worlding, right? And that means the most ordinary, mundane thing you can think of is ongoing. The mug I have right in front of me right now with tea in it. It's ceramic. It's been painted, but it's still ongoing, right? It still has the relation to the machines that shaped it. And it also has this ongoingness with the human history of pottery.Right? And people go, Oh, that's ridiculous. That's not practical. You know, "it's a mug," but I always [00:45:00] think. Isn't that just commodification? Like, is that not just saying it's a commodity, it doesn't have a story? Like, I don't want to get all Marxist here, but there's that real alienation from ongoingness and the fact that we also are ongoing attempts at relation. We're not even fixed identities. Our movements cannot be technically circumscribed because I have a disability which means I can't dance. Right? I use a wheelchair. I can't dance. I can't do the tango. Right? Okay. But everybody uses dance in a context of bopping to the music and doing all this thing and it's a bit like freedom. You know, everybody assumes that dance is a particular thing.But as Bayo and We Will Dance with Mountains, the course, the whole point of it being [00:46:00] called We Will Dance with Mountains is the fact that mountains don't dance like humans. Mountains dance like mountains. And the only way we spot how mountains dance is to actually pay attention to them and attempt to relate to them.We can't get out of our framework completely, but we can be open to say, what does our framework for a mountain miss about those massive landforms? What are we missing when we say a mountain doesn't move? And that's where you have references to indigenous and local stories that actually talk about these landforms, these places, these folklore places, as the living, moving beings that they actually are.Hmm. You know. Yeah, "okay, that stone circle over there was because a bunch of women were dancing on a [00:47:00] Sunday and in a Christian country, that's bad, so they got turned to stone," or in Scandinavia, "that rock there, it's actually a troll that got caught out in the sun." that these are living, ongoing beings and events, which it's not woo, it's actual or intellectual, I think.If you look at anything for long enough, you start to notice what's ongoing with it, even something that's solid and fixed. And that, to me, the gripping is the bending of the perception, right? That is queering, but crip-queering is that point where you have the restriction involved. People will talk about queer liberation, and yeah, we want crip liberation. That's cool. But if you think about crip liberation as, it might actually be the limits that bring us liberation.And then, if you track back [00:48:00] into mythologies long enough. You've got figures like Dionysus or then poetic gods who say, they're the ones that fetter you. They can bind you, but they can also set you free. And that is really interesting to me that a lot of these liberational figures also have a side that they can tie you up.And I don't just mean in a bondage sense. It's this notion that the two things, the two complexes are part of a whole thing, and you can't divide it into restricted and free and you can't escape. You can't pull a Harry Houdini from existence, which, to a certain extent, some people, when they go on holiday, engage in tourism, they're trying to escape for a little while, their other lives. But we all know you can't escape them. Mm-Hmm. But the inescapability of it is not bad. Right. By default, it's not [00:49:00] bad. It can be, but the assumption something is inescapable, just like, oh, something is disabling. Mm-Hmm. the assumption of good and bad. If you can hold that in abeyance and actually look at it for a second and go, Okay, what's going on here?Maybe our conceptions of this need reevaluating. Now the reason we don't do this on the regular, even in modernity, is because it takes a lot of effort and time to focus. And that's another benefit that I get as a disabled person, right? Because I can't use my time for a whole bunch of things that non disabled folks can.So I've got more time, I've got a different relationship to time and space, which means that I can sit and look at things with that differing relation to time and space, and be like "Huh, I never noticed that." And then I get to talk [00:50:00] about this stuff to folks like you, and people get surprised.And they're like, "you think about this all the day." I'm like, "no, I don't think about this. This is my life. This is how I live. This is my embrace of life, right? And this is my freedom to literally, Be like, " well, okay, my restrictions. How do they actually open me to the world?" And I'm not offering a prescription here, because everybody's different.But it strikes me that even the most nomadic person always carry stuff with them, right? And to borrow from Ursula K. Le Guin with her "Carrier Bag Story of Fiction," which Bayo talked about in We Will Dance The Mountains, the idea of what we're carrying is really interesting, but how often do we rummage in our own bags?Hmm. [00:51:00] Right? How often do we take off our backpacks and rummage just for the sake of it? Often we just look in the backpacks for something specific. Hmm. Right? Oh, I need a map. Oh, I need a chocolate bar. Oh, I need my, you know my iPad. We rarely stick our hands in and notice the way our clothing might shift around our fingers or the way, you know, the waterproofing is possibly coming off and means that the fabric has these different textures because we don't take the time and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's the fact that we don't have that relationship to time and space.And babies, kids do. It's why kids put things in their mouth. All those things where you're like, "Oh no, don't put that in your mouth, it's bad for you." They don't know that. But the whole point of putting it in their mouth and feeling it is to try and not [00:52:00] understand it, not get it.There's nothing there in a baby in its early function that says, "I must understand what that is." The understanding comes upon you through experience. But there's no bit, at least as far as I can work out, that's like, "I must understand what it is that I'm putting in my mouth."It's more like, "hmm, that tastes interesting, it has some interesting textures," and then your brain does all the work or your brain and your body mind do all the work, but the personhood isn't also doing all the work, just like the "I" of my body, right, my relationship with the "I", as in my sense of self, I have to expand that to my entire body, You know, because there's so much going on right now in this conversation that I'm not aware of, right?There's stuff going on in my room that I'm [00:53:00] not aware of, but it's going on now. And so I have to expand and that expansiveness also means I sometimes have to venture into realms of pain, right? Because I have chronic pain. And in order to fully experience that, sometimes I have to encounter that pain.I have to slow down and focus and go, "Oh, the chronic pain that I was mostly ignoring because just in the background, it suddenly leaped to the fore because I'm paying attention." Now, modernity says you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do stuff that causes you pain. Understandable in a certain context, but If I didn't understand that the pain was also part of the experience and changes how I move, if I didn't understand that chronic pain changes how time stretches, then I wouldn't be where I am.So the more than human permeates the human in ways [00:54:00] that the human is either deliberately trained to deny or doesn't even know is going on and the pandemic basically was, in my eyes, the more than human kind of knocking on the door going you are not this completely hermetically sealed box, right? Your society is not a hermetically sealed box. Chris: Amen. Amen. I mean, could have gone in a lot of different directions, but here we are, at least being able to reflect on it in a good way, and I'm reminded, this notion of abeyance and attention and, and the expansion of the I.I'm reminded of this, this line from Simone Weil who said that "absolutely unmixed attention is prayer." And so, I think that it, something like that is worthy of the times we, we wish to live in and perhaps sometimes do. Craig: [00:55:00] Definitely.Chris: And so, you know, I wish we had more time, Craig really getting into some beautiful black holes there. But hopefully we get the opportunity to speak again sometime.Craig: I'd be, be happy to. Be happy to. Chris: And so before we depart, I'd just like to ask the kind of token question that always comes at the end of interviews, which is where can our listeners find your work?And I'm pretty sure you had a book that came out last year entitled, Goetic Atavisms, if I'm not mistaken. Craig: Yes, I did. So you can find me on my mostly moribund, but strange little blog at cold-albion.net. And you can also pick up the book, which is, to be clear, more of an occult angle on this, but it also brings in the disability angle directly from the publisher Hadean Press or you could get it from, you know, the Bezos Behemoth, if you really [00:56:00] wanted. I am also not really on social media as a project, but I'm also on you know Blue Sky, so you can search me up there, or Mastodon, which you could always search me up there, and I occasionally post things on there.Chris: Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure that all those links and connections are available for our listeners once the episode launches. And I very much look forward to reading Goetic Activisms myself. So, thank you so much, Craig.Chris: Thank you, Chris. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode, my guests are Jesse Mann (editor-director) and Tyson Sadler (director), the brains behind the documentary The Last Tourist. Jesse is both a picture editor and director whose professional work has spanned commercial, tv and film projects. The Last Tourist is her second feature film as editor. Her first film, as both editor and director, Material Success, screened internationally and won the Audience Choice at the Canadian Film Festival and Best Film at the Canadian Film Festival (2012). Most recently, she both directed and edited the online horror mini-series “The Confinement” (2021). She is a member of the Directors Guild of Canada and an associate member of the Canadian Cinema Editors. Jesse has an B.F.A. from Ryerson University's School of Image Arts.Tyson Sadler is an explorer, traveller and award-winning filmmaker. He has directed video content and documentaries for The New York Times, Associated Press, and The Huffington Post. His films have been screened at festivals around the world including Tribeca Film Festival, South by Southwest, The Edinburgh Fringe Festival, and the Toronto International Film Festival. An early pioneer i virtual reality documentary, he has worked tirelessly to use cutting edge technology to tell stories that build empathy around causes such as climate change, forced migration, and human rights.Show Notes:The Film's InceptionIndustry PolarityRegulating TravelAddressing the Root ProblemsGreenwashing Animal and Child Welfare TourismHow the Wealth Gap Increased During COVIDWhat was Left on the Cutting Room FloorHomework:WATCH THE FILM HEREThe Last Tourist Film Website | Instagram | FacebookThe Last Tourist TrailerJesse Mann's Website | InstagramTyson Sadler's Website | InstagramTranscript:Chris: Welcome Jesse and Tyson to the End of Tourism Podcast. Jesse: Thanks Chris for having us. Tyson: Thanks for having us. Chris: Thank you so much for joining me today to talk about your documentary film, The Last Tourist. So, it was released in 2022 to great reception.And as you might imagine, many of my listeners have pointed me in its direction. And after watching the film, I found myself really grateful that people finally approached these themes in the medium of documentary filmmaking and with what seemed to be a budget to do justice to what those themes confront. And so first I'd like to ask you two how The Last Tourist got started and what the inspiration behind the film's creation was and how did you decide to write a treatment for it? Tyson: Ultimately, you know, I think the inspiration for The Last Tourist came from a combination of personal shared experience and a shared passion for travel and particularly responsible travel.You know, in early 2018, I was approached [00:01:00] by the executive producers to write a treatment, for a short film around responsible tourism in the country of Peru. And through, you know, some follow up conversations, we sort of quickly realized that we had an opportunity because, a large scale documentary, on the subject of responsible tourism just didn't exist yet. I mean, we have wonderful films out there which challenge our conversations with our relationship with climate change and our relationship with our food source like An Inconvenient Truth or like Food Inc., but we didn't at that time yet have a documentary which really challenged our perceptions of the global impact of the travel and tourism industry and so over conversations with with our team and the producers we quickly realized that we had a unique opportunity to make "An Inconvenient Truth" for the travel industry and in early 2018, we seized on that opportunity to explore the positive and negative impacts of tourism on destinations.Jesse: And I think just to add to what Tyson was saying, I think originally [00:02:00] it started off as a short project and yourself and the executive producers who brought us together kind of pushed for it to become the large scale project that had ended up being filmed in 15 different countries or 16 with 400 hours of footage.So, sometimes you don't know, especially myself as a co-writer and editor, when you come on to a project, in the initial stages, you think, "Oh, you know, this is wonderful. It sounds like a great project." I had been an avid traveler, lived in a few different countries over 20 years and I thought, yeah, this is a story that needs to be told, but I will say in no way in the beginning, did I ever think it was going to be, and I think Tyson didn't either, was it going to be such a huge project. And you comment, Chris, on the expansiveness of the subject and the different kind of facets of the tourism [00:03:00] industry we were able to look at.And really I have to say that I'm happy that we got to touch on all those points and to the chagrin of my personal sleep and Tyson's as well, but it started off small, I have to say that, and it grew into something tremendous that I think we're very proud of.Tyson: It really was a natural progression of our desire to raise awareness about responsible tourism and its consequences. We had our world premiere, honestly, I think it was about two years ago now at the Vancouver International Film Festival, two years ago. And a little over two years ago, a little over two years ago.And the film is still doing a festival run. Just last weekend, Jesse was at the the Innsbruck Film Festival and it's still been getting a wonderful response, great conversations around it. And we're streaming on platforms around the world, you know, Crave in Canada, Hulu in the U.S., Amazon Prime in other countries. I was just in French Polynesia and was able to find our film on Amazon Prime, which was really delightful [00:04:00] to see that. Jesse: Yeah, it makes us happy as filmmakers to know that the story that we spent a lot of time trying to create in a way that we thought would connect with audiences worldwide is actually getting out there. And so it's really nice to be speaking to you on your podcast as well and kind of extend that out to potentially more people who haven't seen the film or some who just want to talk more about the topics. Chris: And I wanted to ask you two, given the fact that the film was released, you know, still very much in a pandemic during the, the COVID 19 times what the reactions were given the fact that tourism had ground to a halt in that time you know, I received a lot of Mail regarding your film, like, ah, you have to check this out.You have to watch this, right? And so a lot of people really excited about the project, about the film. But then I guess I'm also curious about[00:05:00] if there was much of an industry backlash in regards to the degree of sincerity perhaps around which the film exhibited these kind of deep and sometimes dire consequences that visit themselves on places and people in the name of tourism.Tyson: Yeah. I think the reactions to the film have been in my experience, almost entirely positive. But people don't come to me with criticism, they come to me with congratulations, but I think there's a lot of individuals in the tourism industry and sponsors that have really welcomed our film, The Last Tourist, as a necessary and eye opening piece of work.It sparked a lot of interesting conversations and prompted the industry to, in many ways, I think, reevaluate some of their practices. You Jesse: If we back it up to when we were just when we were meeting with all of the different professionals that we interviewed across the different facets of the tourism industry, I mean, when you and I were writing the story, there were so [00:06:00] many different conflicting opinions on how to solve one issue that we still come across that sometimes when we meet those industry experts outside of, let's say, film audiences.Because When we were writing it, we had to kind of decide which side of the coin we were going to follow through our story with, and whether it's a topic of let's say regulation, that was a topic that Tyson and I had a lot of conversations about when we were making the film because the industry in itself is kind of very polarized in terms of regulation.There's some strong proponents within the tourism industry who want regulation. And then there's some who are very against it. And Tyson and I had a lot of conversations about that. And I think we still do when we meet certain industry professionals out there and I think that's a really important topic as well.[00:07:00] Now that you are bringing up, post covid and the pandemic where we saw kind of what happens when things are shut down. You know, we see both the positive and the negative. I mean we mentioned it in the film, but almost every single person that we interviewed in our film lost their means of income during that time. Gone.And at the same time, the world experienced kind of you know, a refuge from, you know, airplane emissions and damage to destinations. And, you know, these were calculable things like we could see that this was a definite impact. So, I think there's these kind of topics and these conversations are where we see a lot of polarity.And I think that we tried our best to focus on the people and the developing nations in our story. But, there are a lot [00:08:00] of stories that were left on the cutting room floor and so it is good to discuss them after in a podcast like this. I know that's kind of a long winded interjection, but I do believe that we do have some polarity for sure Tyson and I have come across, but just not in terms of what Tyson is talking about, in terms of not not so much with the audiences It is more a bit in the industry. Tyson: I'll share an observation. During the process of creating this film, we interviewed literally dozens of travel experts, you know from academics to tour operators across the industry.It's universally recognized that responsible tourism and sustainable tourism is a good thing. But then when we dive a little bit deeper I found a very fractured kind of industry because everybody believes that they know how to do responsible tourism, right. And everybody else, often, isn't executing responsible tourism correctly.And so, on a foundational level, sure, we all believe in responsible tourism, but I think, the approach at how we get there isn't universally accepted, throughout the industry, and I think [00:09:00] that that's, on a basic level, we kind of explore those themes in the film as well as we interview people who kind of take different approaches to how to engage responsibly with tourists and host communities.Jesse: And we had to make some hard decisions, obviously based on the research that was coming in on what side we wanted to promote in the story. But sometimes I think it's fair to say, Tyson, if you agree with me that we did try to leave it a bit more open for audiences to try to make their own decision based on what we had learned, because it's not always an easy answer for every situation.It's quite nuanced, I think. Tyson: Absolutely. Chris: And you mentioned Jesse, regulation. In terms of the people you interviewed and your research, generally speaking, what does that look like, or what might that look like in particular locales or within the industry?Jesse: Well, I think we've seen quite a bit of it post pandemic because where we thought there was going to be [00:10:00] an ease back into traveling that has not happened. All the reports are coming back in that tourism is back up in droves and a lot of the same problems, if not more are back with travel again.And so we've seen places like Machu Picchu has started regulating the amount of people that are able to visit annually. Worldwide, there's different popular tourist destinations who have decided to limit the amount of tourism and tourists that come to certain destinations.You know, I think when it comes to destinations, we just have to be really careful that it doesn't become a tax that is elitist because that happens a lot with regulation across the board. You've seen it with cigarettes, you've seen it with airfare as well. You're paying a higher price for travel. And although I do believe personally and Tyson, you [00:11:00] can speak to this as well, but because we haven't discussed this recently, but when you put a strong tariff or tax on travel, I think it is important, but I think it has to be calculated so that it's not elitist because if we only have people traveling in the world who can afford it, if it becomes so unaffordable, this is totally against the core value of travel, which is to unite all people of all different socioeconomic statuses and really connect with different cultures and people, and if it's just suddenly becomes for people who can afford a really overpriced flight, I think that will completely take away the value of the core value of travel.But I do strongly believe that, and this I think is a very controversial thing to say. I do believe that things have to be regulated and there has to be something done, especially about the amount of flights that are happening on this planet. Because, you know, for instance, I don't know the statistics for Canada, but I was looking at it the other day for[00:12:00] the UK.And I think something like 70 percent of all flights in the UK are taken by 15 percent of the population, and I don't doubt that that's very similar for a lot of the Western world without knowing all the statistics specifically, so I think that that has to be really taken into consideration when putting out regulation in terms of flights or destinations and such.Chris: Yeah, I've thought about it quite a bit as well, and the elitization of travel, and this understanding that, well, we remove subsidies, for example, for air travel or other things, that we'll just have rich people flying around the world, which is more often than not the case already. Most flights are undertaken for business travel and that's a huge thing that I think most people don't know about, but instead of getting people with corporate backed funds or just rich people flying around the world, we're obviously looking for people with strong principles and good behavior to be the ones [00:13:00] traveling.But then how do you measure that? How do you quantify that in a way that honors the kinds of worlds we want to live in? And it's not just this like, oh, it's impossible. Sure. And we could take that understanding that to quantify such a thing would be next to impossible, but then it could also open up these kind of doors of imagination where in like what kind of infrastructures would we want to put in place that were not maybe Government sanctioned or not maybe top down, but actually from the bottom up, creating these kind of international or intercultural bonds and practices between people that would allow not just for the kinds of people who locals in quote unquote "destinations" want to receive to be able to travel, but then also to create the conditions whereby that kind of, for lack of a better word, behavior or principles could be deepened in the world.I mean, it'd be extremely difficult to, [00:14:00] to manage, but How would you quantify that? How would you measure that? Jesse: Yeah, and I think that's such a, such a complicated issue and I love what you're saying though. I think it's absolutely wonderful. And I do think it's possible to move in that direction.I'm not sure I have the answer for that and maybe Tyson wants to speak to it, but I also want to say that something that I think could be part of the solution is also promoting train travel as well. And I know that that kind of that stops at domestic. But at the same time, you know, I think governments should be allocating a lot of funds to push train travel to create and develop train travel and to also subsidize train travel more because it's just a wonderful way to reduce emissions and to actually continue allowing people to travel. Tyson: Yeah. There are some countries here in Europe, Jesse, and I think Europe is just far beyond a lot of the rest of the world. Canada, I think we're still living in the dark ages, you know, when it comes to long [00:15:00] distance train travel.Jesse: That's a shame. It hasn't been made a priority. Tyson: It just doesn't exist.Chris: Well, I'm curious also for you two how your own travels in your lives might have come to bear on your production or pre production and research in the film. Maybe you could tell us a little bit of how you've seen the world over the course of your life and your travels and if that came to bear at all in the making of the film.Tyson: Personally for me, I traveled extensively, for 20 years prior to embarking on this film. I worked in the travel industry. I worked for an airline for many years. I was also a journalist and I've done work for several large publications, which allowed me to travel to very, some very remote and exotic destinations around the world.This travel really exposed me to the beauty and the wonder of the world. But also the environmental and the cultural challenges that a lot of these destinations face. You know, the experiences, with travel for both work and for pleasure, I think they served as a [00:16:00] catalyst, for me just to delve deeper into this topic.And so when I was approached about directing and writing a film on this topic, I don't think there could have been a better fit. Like it just, everything just kind of fell into place and I just felt like I was really well poised because prior to that I had traveled to 70 different countries in a number of different capacities.I had personally engaged in a number of behaviors that we are critical of in the film in terms of animal interaction, you know, interaction with other cultures. And my travel through two decades was really an eye opening and learning experience for me. And what this film really is, I think for me and in many points in the film is a reflection of my past travels and things that have been illuminated in my mind in terms of what are some important aspects that we really need to address if we want to be more conscious and responsible travelers.Jesse: And I think from my end I surely [00:17:00] had not traveled to as many destinations as Tyson. But I did indulge my wanderlust in my twenties and thirties. I lived in a few different countries, Holland, South Africa, Germany, Canada. And I think that the absolute best aspect for me personally of travel is meeting the people.I absolutely love meeting people in different cultures and seeing the differences and the similarities and learning the wisdom as much as I possibly can in such a moment of my life, when I'm in a destination, if it grants me such a gift. And I think from that, I still do have such a deep, deep gratitude to my privilege and being able to travel in and meet such people.I've made such beautiful friendships over the course of 20 years and many I still keep in touch with across the various places I've lived. And I think that when you come back, [00:18:00] perhaps from living in different cultures in different countries and you come back to your home, the place you were raised in and where you were born and where you were raised culturally, and you can note the vast differences, and it's not a negative thing, but you start to pick up on the ways in which many people can see different cultures or different countries in a way that is completely disconnected from the actual truth and and this knowledge often comes with privilege.I was privileged enough to be able to travel to these destinations to meet certain people and to dissuade certain prejudices, but not everyone can. And so part of this film, I have to say, ironically, is that if you can't travel, this film is also a wonderful film to watch because it's something that you can meet these people [00:19:00] in these destinations.You know, there's so many places that I've been to also that are so many places I have not been to that were featured in the film as well. And with documentary filmmaking and making, and especially as an editor, I really do feel like I get to know these people so well, and I don't think that's just exclusive to myself.I think audiences, hopefully, if I've done it correctly, if Tyson and I have, have made the film correctly, that these people's hearts have come through in the film. And, this is something that Tyson and I really worked hard on. And I'm sorry if I'm deviating from the question a bit, but it does connect very deeply to my love of travel is is people and also my love of editing people and so it was something we worked really hard to focus on is how do we give these people a podium. They have their voice there. They're saying their truths. How do we give them a podium [00:20:00] and as the white filmmakers who are coming into different countries, how do we take a step back and really let them preach their wisdom? And so it was a balance for us really in finding the right voices, obviously speaking to the right professionals and speaking to professionals within different cultures that you see featured in the film and really making sure that their knowledge, their voice, their direction was giving us direction on how we edited and formulated the story and stories of everyone that we met in the travels of the production as well. Chris: And on that note, I'm curious for each of you, what was the most important topic or theme that came up in the film for you personally?Tyson: For me, maybe it's an echo of Jesse's sentiments there, but really it comes down to the impact on the communities that so graciously host us when we when we do travel. Travel you know has you know has an encyclopedia [00:21:00] of challenges that come with traveling responsibly unless we address the people. And I think we address this and the the film addresses this, but we can't begin to you know to start focusing on the environment unless we first focus on the communities who are there and helping them emerge from poverty. We can't begin to focus on how we can solve the problem of poaching in the African savannah unless we first address the root causes of why it's there and how it affects the host communities and how poverty affects people's decisions to be involved in this trade. Jesse: That was something that Jane Goodall was was really adamant about speaking in the film about as well Tyson: Yeah, and so to answer your question Chris, I mean ultimately it comes down to the communities and the people, the humanity of it all. First, we need to address the human aspect and then we can address the secondary aspects of what it means to be a responsible traveler.[00:22:00] Jesse: So for me, personally, the most incredible voices in the film that when they came in, I just thought, "oh, wow," were definitely Lek from Elephant Nature Park and one of our contacts in Kenya Judy Kefergona, who ended up being one of the main speakers and narrators throughout a huge portion of our film.These two women were just heroes. Like just with Judy, with the words that she was able to express for the people working in not just only the tourism industry in Kenya, but the people of Kenya who were vulnerable to unethical tourism, and then speaking to so many different subjects that were connected to so many different stories worldwide with such eloquence and such power and such knowledge [00:23:00] and encourage really, I think. She spoke about these topics. I was just enamored, just blown away and so grateful for her coming onto our film and Lek Chailart is just a modern day hero. She is the tiniest woman with the biggest heart who when I saw her story in our film against the backdrop of these beautiful giants, these elephants that she has rescued. And essentially she's an elephant whisperer in the truest sense of the word. And it's just such a magical thing to see.Listeners won't be able to understand this. I'm getting goosebumps when I just talk about her and this was the kind of thing that when Tyson and I were looking through footage and looking through stories that we were looking for, "Oh, that's the moment, ah! the moment. I got the goosebumps. That's it. It's there. And we found it in the stories, not just these two women, everyone you see featured in the story and some that were left on the cutting room floor, unfortunately there that gave us beautiful insight that we still used in crafting the story, that just wasn't able to [00:24:00] make it into the actual film for timing constraints.But really, I would have to say that these two, it's not specifically the stories, although both of them touch on really important stories, including child welfare and animal welfare, which to me, those two stories were really close to my heart. And we felt really strongly that they needed a really important part in the film.But it was really these two women who I just felt so grateful for in the film. Chris: I mean, the, the chapter on animal welfare was quite devastating for me in part because it had reminded me that in my early twenties, I had visited Thailand and I had gone to an elephant sanctuary. Not a zoo but a sanctuary, and had the opportunity to ride an elephant for a short time, and I felt really uncomfortable probably because I was on top of an elephant, just the kind of immediate awkwardness of such a thing, having never seen one in person, having never [00:25:00] experienced that before, but also kind of like, "what am I doing here?" And so, that part of the film really kind of opened up for me why I felt that perhaps existential discomfort, not just about being on top of an animal of that size, but in the context of the dynamic, you around how that was happening and why that was happening and not having the context for it so long ago.And of course, this is one of the things that we touch on in the episodes, in the interviews, in the podcast, is how can we come to understand these things when our visits are so short in these places, when we are only in a place for just a very brief time and there's really no context for the history and the culture and the political dynamics that surround these things.And then, most travelers, most tourists just end up leaving and the consequence of one's presence on the scene is kind of forgotten, at least by the tourist or traveler. Yeah, so thank you for [00:26:00] for that. Jesse: That question did come up actually at the recent screening of the film in Innsbruck at the Nature Film Festival, whereas someone in the audience asked very specifically, even though it would be great to stay at a destination for a long time, most people are, saving up for short travel when they have time off work. And they need to take this kind of tour because they can only afford this one. And what do you say to those people who want to travel better, but feel like they're kind of stuck or don't know where to go. But I would say in short, I think that touches on an issue that we have in the modern world with a lot of things. We are all overtired, overworked, and we don't have time to be ethical, we don't have time to do the research, we don't have time to investigate, if anything is against our core values, and we don't have time to and I get that, you know, it's not easy for everybody.And if you do have the [00:27:00] time and you are able to really do a deep dive then you're very privileged, because you have the time, which just means that you have the money. So we did try to give a lot of smaller tips at the end of the film in terms of how you can do smaller acts of, of kindness and of conscious traveling, to travel local, to put money into local economies to make sure that you're not requesting your sheets to be washed every day, making sure that you're traveling using reusable, to make sure that you're and I guess this goes into a little bit more of the extensive questioning is to ask the destination that you're traveling to what their policies are in connection with the locals, in connections with the environment. Unfortunately, there is a lot of greenwashing in tourism. And you know, that's in all industries right now worldwide. So it's not going to be so easy for someone who isn't an investigative [00:28:00] journalist to really find out the truth behind it all the time, but we can do our best.And there are quite a few links on the website thelasttouristfilm.com where you can see some of the different organizations that we spoke with that have lists upon lists of different collaborating companies that you can look to that can can show you places that are not greenwashing or that are working with locals, but back to the idea of taking the time and it is about taking the time, whether it's an hour even, just to take the time and do a bit of research and this especially comes back to the topic of child welfare and people who are still, en masse, volunteering worldwide to orphanages and orphanages where children have existing family members and that these orphanages have become of monetary value to developing nations [00:29:00] because they make money and it's really easy for us to pass judgment on places that do this, and it's definitely wrong, but if we as travelers are going there and saying with our travel dollars, this is something we want to invest in, then people in developing nations are going to say, this is how I make money.And it's the same with animal welfare. You pay for an animal sanctuary that you haven't done the research on. They're going to keep perpetuating that cycle. It's going to be the same with child welfare. So, if you do want to be ethical, you have to fit in a little bit of research in your travel time. And that's it. And I know it's not so easy for everybody.Tyson: Yeah, I'd like to expand a little bit on a theme that sort of both of you have talked about. Jessie, you had mentioned greenwashing. Chris, you had mentioned that you had been to an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. One of the most memorable takeaways that I had from this film is just the massive amount of greenwashing [00:30:00] and deception that exists within the industry.I came to know a lot of companies that appeared to just be normal travel companies doing the same thing that has been going on in the travel industry but marketing "green" although nothing really changes. It's just their marketing strategy that's changed. If we look at, for example, in Thailand, there are a number of places that call themselves an elephant sanctuary, an elephant retirement home, an elephant rescue center. And we can't rely on those names anymore to know that the service provider is giving us an ethical experience. We really need to ask deeper questions. It's the trend in the industry now to use this type of language, " sustainable," "responsible," "eco," all of these buzzwords.And I've just come to find these completely meaningless, in those terms. We really need to ask some deeper, more challenging questions of these experiences and the tour operators and the service providers to actually know whether what they're doing is ethical or not because it is very easy to call yourself a [00:31:00] sanctuary, when in fact, it's the complete opposite. If it truly was an elephant sanctuary, we wouldn't be able to ride the elephants, in that place and they would be providing them a life of dignity free from exploitation. And it's the same with children. Calling these places orphanages ,I think it's a misnomer. It's incorrect. You know, 70 percent of children who live in these quote unquote "orphanages" actually have at least one living parent.But it's all under the guise of trying to gain sympathy from the traveler. "Oh, come see an elephant at a retirement home. Come see a child at an orphanage." It's just a piece of marketing that doesn't reflect the truth. We have a lot of companies doing the same unethical practices they've been doing for decades.However, they've just really changed their marketing to appear more green.Chris: Yeah, it seems to be a never ending cycle where responsible isn't good enough, that now we got to be regenerative. So many of these words just end up becoming, marketing tools. Tyson: I'm hearing that word a [00:32:00] lot more these days as well. Chris: Yeah, so how do we proceed, not just with a degree of dedication towards research and, and and planning, but also deep discipline as to how these words are unfortunately, as you said, becoming kind of meaningless in their significance..I want to take a little turn with you both to ask about what happened as the film was going through post production and its release because most of the footage that you have is quote unquote pre pandemic and the COVID 19 pandemic hit, obviously, in 2020 and from what I understand your team was entering into the post production process and, of course, tourism ground to a halt almost completely, worldwide. And throughout the film, there are people that you two interview that contend with the consequences and context of tourism and look [00:33:00] to a more honorable path that it might take. But I'm curious in regards to the people that you did interview who had found a degree of success and perhaps within a more small scale, a more honorable way of doing tourism that those flights, those trains, the reception of people in their villages went from a hundred to zero, basically overnight.So much of the dire consequences of tourism revolve around or end up as exile, local people can't afford to produce food anymore in their places. And the education systems kind of move them towards getting jobs in the next city or even in other countries, and I'm curious in the context of the film and I guess the treatment that you put forward, you know, never perhaps thinking that something like this could happen. What was the fallout among the people that you interviewed in regards to their understandings of tourism and if it was [00:34:00] still this kind of for lack of a better word, golden goose or calf or sacred cow that they could rely on for the rest of their lives.What did you hear kind of in the ether as you were doing that post production? Tyson: I think it substantially expanded the wealth gap. I think during COVID the people that were hit the hardest are the people in the tourism industry that often are paid the least.Depending on what their jobs were, they were the ones who were suffering layoffs and they were the ones whose businesses couldn't afford to sustain themselves. And so I think, for the most vulnerable populations, the pandemic was absolutely devastating.People couldn't afford to put food on the table and pay rents, not just, I think, in developing countries, but even in the developed world. Airlines were laying off massive amounts of employees. Hotels were cutting staff. This was a global challenge that affected everyone. However, at that same time, we did hear stories that, you know, CEOs of major airlines were taking million dollar bonuses[00:35:00] for cutting costs. And that was an observation of mine, through that experience, you know, that the people who needed tourism the most for daily sustenance and to put bread on the table were the ones who were absolutely the most affected and the people kind of at the top of the tourism industry were still fine and they were also taking bonuses, which really bothered me just because the wealth gap just seemed to get further and further apart through that. But we do know, with the stories, that were featured in our film... there's a wonderful lodge in Ecuador, a homestay that we look at and they lost their income during that time.The elephant sanctuary in Thailand, the one that does do great work, not one that greenwashes an elephant sanctuary but they lost a lot of revenue where it was very challenging to feed the elephants and to house the elephants because they didn't have that revenue coming in to support the project. Jesse: We were hearing in in Africa, right?Some of the rangers [00:36:00] were who were placed in defense of the elephants and animals and rhinos and such were just gone. They just weren't there anymore at that time because if they're not getting paid, they can't stay there. And so poaching also went up in those areas as well.But you know, I think that in terms of what the positive was, I think a lot of people were hoping that post COVID that there was going to be hope for change, for renewal for doing things differently. And I think this was in when we were in post that this was maybe, potential to show people how things can be different by showing kind of the polar opposite and the effect and also showing how intrinsically connected people's livelihoods are to this industry and how vulnerable they are to massive change like this. I mean, the Dominican Republic that has [00:37:00] almost 90 percent of their GDP related to tourism? Tyson: Island nations are the ones who are most affected by tourism. You know, the Bahamas, the Dominican Republic. The Caribbean islands specifically. I don't know if it's as high as 90%, but the vast majority of their GDP from island nations comes from the travel and tourism industry, and they were certainly hit the hardest during the pandemic. Jesse: And so I think that we can see from that, I think the hope for us during post production was, okay, you know, this is a horrific blow to the people most vulnerable in this industry, but if we can get this message out after the pandemic, perhaps this could be something that could really change. And to be fair, change is slow sometimes and I mean, it's wishful thinking that post pandemic right after that suddenly everyone was going to become ethical travelers but I see so much potential just in the discussions online the people that we're [00:38:00] meeting at different screenings, the interest that we're getting worldwide, just to have these conversations and see that there is an interest in change.And when you talk about moving change, it does often come from the people, and I think, across the world over the past few decades, we've all been seeing again, I think our power as people, as citizens, as individuals, and the power that we have to come together over certain issues that we feel need radical change and even if it is slow change, I do see the inklings of that change happening within the tourism industry and I think it's really positive.Tyson: You still have a lot of work ahead of us. Chris: Amen. I think that's really, really important and, and perhaps fits properly inside of the context of the dominant culture, at least of North America or the quote unquote West, wherein, the pandemic also produced a deepening of the [00:39:00] culture of "everything now."Suddenly it was like, "okay, well, I can't go out here, so everything has to be deliverable, and at the tip of your fingers, right? And what might come with that is this notion that, we also expect social change to happen overnight. Right? And that it might be overshadowed by this kind of dominant culture of wanting everything now and also the unwillingness to do the necessary work, which is sometimes generational.Right? Not just a week or a month or a year, but generations.In that regard, the themes of the film are extremely broad and you go into a lot of detail and depth with each. So I'm very grateful for that, but I'm also curious what might've gotten left out.What might, one day end up on a director's cut of the film. Jesse: Oh, so much. Tyson: Ask the editor. Jesse: Oh. Well, I mean, you had so many stories that you brought [00:40:00] to the table that were beautiful, beautiful stories. Forgive me. I don't remember his name and you'll remember Tyson.But one of the. Tyson: I know who you're talking about. Jesse: Oh, do you? One of the men you interviewed at the UN had a really beautiful story to tell. And then we also had a really beautiful story from Costa Rica. An animal welfare and environmental story. Oh, my goodness. There were so many stories.Tyson: We had a wonderful story from Cusco Peru with an organization that was putting the first female porters on the Inca Trail and really fighting for gender equality on the Inca Trail.Jesse: What was that company's name again, Tyson? Well, the reason why I bring it up is because it's so unique that I just think, "oh, we should definitely highlight that to listeners" because they were taking female porters and they were reorganizing the whole industry based on their [00:41:00] precedent because they were treating porters with dignity, with safe conditions, with, valuable wages and this is something that's just not done across the industry on the Inca Trail with the male porters and there was some really, really horrific footage that we came across of the way these porters were living just not too far from where the tourists were sleeping comfortably in their tents. And this is a wide practice across the industry and Miguel from this company Evolution Treks and the gallon, do you remember his full name, tyson? Tyson: Miguel Angel Gongora Jesse: from Evolution Treks, yeah, a wonderful, wonderful man who was really, really passionate about changing the industry. And we spoke with many of the female porters, and yeah, that was a story that we were really, really sad to lose that [00:42:00] story. Tyson: Yeah. Yeah. With only 90 minutes, you know, we yeah, really had to make some challenging decisions on what to be included in the film and I really feel that a 90 minute film can scratch the surface, it can spark some interest in a number of these themes, but certainly, and maybe that's next steps for us, but I certainly think that what this the subject matter, deserves is a series, you know, cause we could dive much deeper.Jesse: Tyson and I have been talking about it. Tyson: Yeah, we, we can dive much deeper into each of these subjects and create a 90 minute doc on each of them. And so, at some point in the future, we'll be making some pitches and writing some additional treatments into how we can make a six part series and expand on the themes in this film, you know, from the environment to gender inequality to animal welfare and everything deserves a lot more time, but hopefully, what we've done with this film is just been able to spark a number of conversations and inspire people to go and do some additional research [00:43:00] into how these themes impact these communities.Chris: Yeah, well, thank you both so much for that. I have a lot more questions, but maybe that'll also be saved for a sequel. Jesse: Yeah, we'd love to speak to you again, Chris, if you'd like, in the future. Chris: That'd be great. Before we finish, I'd like to ask you what might be next for you two in your respective filmmaking and writing lives?Tyson: My world currently revolves around photographing wildlife particularly large wildlife. Yeah, I've been spending a lot of time traveling recently and in the ocean. I mentioned to you, I mean, tomorrow I'm hopping on a flight and I'm heading to Norway to go photograph large marine mammals in Norway. So that's that's where my life is taking me right now is in pursuit of wildlife filmmaking and photography. Jesse: Although I wish I could, I could say similarly, I right now my life is a little bit calmer. I had a baby 20 months ago. So, I've been on an extended maternity leave [00:44:00] and I'm currently just in development of projects for the future.I finished up this project in full right before my child was born. And I still have a few projects that were finished up recently, but as of the moment I'm completely in development and yeah, I really look forward to developing something with Tyson in the future in regards to what he was talking about a series on travel and on a lot of stories that we were so passionate and so blessed to come across, but that we just didn't have the ability to give the podium to in our film, but yeah, so I'm really excited for the future and just coming from this festival that I was at recently, I'm just so invigorated with the energy of the audiences and the passion to travel better and to demand better travel from the industry and from travelers as a whole. So this just really gives me a lot of hope. Chris: Well, congratulations on your [00:45:00] motherhood. Thank you. And having a little one in your life and this work and Tyson and the opportunity to be able to travel as you do, and to try to honor the lives of those beautiful four leggeds and no leggeds and the tailed and finned ones. So finally, how can our listeners watch The Last Tourist? Are there any screenings coming up? Jesse: Definitely on the website, thelasttouristfilm.com, right when you go to the webpage, there's a whole list of all the different avenues you can watch the film.But maybe Tyson could elaborate more. Tyson: Absolutely. Yeah, you can connect with us on Instagram at Last Tourist Film, as well. We're just kind of wrapping up the fall festival season before we do some additional screenings next spring. We just wrapped up in Germany and Iceland.I think streaming is the best way to find us, in Canada we're streaming on Crave. In the United States, we're streaming on Hulu. Delta Airlines, Emirates Airlines. In other countries around the world, you can also find us, I [00:46:00] know in France, in French Polynesia, Hong Kong on Amazon Prime. And there's a number of other markets that the film will be opening in very shortly which is really exciting.It's not available everywhere, unfortunately, around the world, but if you have a desire to see it, you know, please get in touch with us and we'll do our best to make sure that you have an opportunity to see the film. You can host a private screening. There's a number of ways that you can see this film, but please let's keep the conversation going.Let's get in touch. I'd love to hear from a number of the listeners, and let's find a way that we can allow everyone to see this film. Jesse: And what's been really exciting is we've got a lot of interest from schools. So, educational screenings have been happening all across the world, and that's just been amazing.Those are the best for us, I think. And I would just say, if any of the listeners have any further questions for us, we're always open to taking questions and chatting. Personally, Tyson and I can both be reached at our Instagram. So you can I think Tyson's is @TysonSadler, and mine is [00:47:00] @JesseMann, two S's, two N's. So if you want to leave that for your listeners, they're welcome to contact us. And anyone who's listening can contact us directly that way, who want to host a screening or find out ways to watch. Chris: Absolutely. Yeah, I'll make sure that all the websites and handles are available for our listeners at theendoftourism. com. And on behalf of them on behalf of myself, I'd like to thank you both for joining me today. Your film is incredibly inspirational, necessary, and deeply important for these times and I don't doubt that our listeners think the same. So, I wish you the most beautiful paths ahead on your travels with your families.And ...We get the opportunity to speak again sometime. Tyson: Thank you, Chris. This has really been a meaningful conversation. Thank you. Jesse: Yeah. Thank you so much for giving us this space and I wish you all the same. Chris: My pleasure. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode, my guest is Sean P. Smith, an Assistant Professor in the Department of Culture Studies at Tilburg University in the Netherlands. Much of his research has focused on the relationship between social media and tourism, and how colonial histories shape today's ideologies and visual cultures of travel. The inequalities that result from many forms of tourism development, he argues, are intimately linked with how tourists create content for Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, and the ways tourists frame themselves in landscapes and alongside local residents often replay colonial hierarchies.Show Notes: Why Study Instagram?The Pre-tour Narrative (Edward Bruner, Raul Salazar)The Habitus of Tourism (or How We Got Here)The Promontory Witness (or that photo)The Logic of InfluenceEmptying the Landscape (John Urry)The Techno-Generational DivideMedia EcologyOther Horizons in OmanHomework:Sean P. Smith - Tilburg UniversitySean P. Smith: Twitter / X | Instagram | Google Scholar (Articles)Transcript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome, Sean, to the pod. Thank you so much for being willing to join us to speak about your work. Sean: Thanks very much for having me. Chris: My pleasure. I'm curious, Sean where you're speaking from today and, and how the world is, how the world might be housing you there. Sean: Well, it's very rainy and dark. I'm in the Southern Netherlands, an area called North Brebant, where I just moved less than a month ago.So, in many places of moving around, if so, getting used to this one. Chris: Sean, I found out about your work from one of the pod's listeners who sent in a link to one of your academic articles entitled, Instagram Abroad, Performance, Consumption, and Colonial Narrative in Tourism. Now, I've been ruminating on the effect that social media has on tourism, spectacle, surveillance, and cultures of disposability for a long time now.So I'm really excited to speak with you today. And [00:01:00] likewise parts of the podcast are shared via Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, so there's always this sense of kind of feeding the machine. unaware and perhaps more aware each time. And so first then, I'm curious why focus on Instagram in the context of critical tourism studies? What makes it different from say Facebook or Twitter?Sean: Yeah, that's a really good question Chris. I think with Instagram, in many contexts around the world, certainly not universally, but it's the social media platform that is most readily identified with not just tourism, but the way that people represent themselves engaging in tourism. It's very image driven.Of course, people do write captions, they do engage in other forms of storytelling, but nowadays it's mostly pictures and especially reels, arguably in the last few years. And for a long time, this [00:02:00] has been could almost say the dream work of tourism going back 200, maybe longer years. So even though today, I think you can find forms of tourism well represented TikTok to varying degrees on Facebook.Instagram, at least in many of the places where I've conducted research, is the place that one goes to both learn about places to travel and also to show how oneself travels.Chris: And I'm kind of imagining that we're more or less in the same age range, but I'm curious if on your travels, you mentioned just briefly that you had also spent time backpacking as a younger person and I'm curious if Instagram existed at the time and also if this dream work was evident to you in your travels.Sean: It was. I think I was relatively young when I got my first [00:03:00] smartphone, but certainly not as young as people nowadays. I must have been maybe 22 or 23. So I did have some years of traveling before I think Instagram really reshaped the way that tourism is done, not just for people that actually use this app, but regardless of whether or not anyone's ever downloaded it on their phone, I think Instagram has had a significant impact on the way that tourism is done. So when I first got a smartphone, I was in a period of my life where I was able to travel quite frequently and that was something that I was really pursuing at the time. And Instagram was a way that I was able to engage in a long running interest in photography, but also kind of a diary of where I had been, but certainly one that was legible and sort of visible to other people.And it was through that, you could say "performance" of travel that began to think a bit more critically about this app and other social media [00:04:00] platforms as well. And the way that it was reshaping tourism destinations. Chris: Mm. Mm. Yeah, you mention in your work this notion of the pre tour narrative.And I'm wondering if we could unpack that a little bit for our listeners and what part Instagram plays in this pre tour narrative. Sean: Yeah, I'm very happy to point that out, because I think this is, this is an important way to think about tourism, and that particular phrase I'm drawing on the work of Edward Bruner, who was an American anthropologist.And that's also been picked up in other realms to be identified as what other people have called tourism imaginaries, such as in the work of Raúl Salazar. So what this concept of the pre-tour narrative describes is that before people travel to a particular destination, they are exposed to [00:05:00] various forms of representation.And oftentimes this is very image based or narrative based. So we would see this maybe thinking back in the era before social media, images encountered in magazines and films, perhaps novels, other forms of storytelling, such as just talking with people who have been to places that one wants to travel.However, in social media, as it's become more integral to the way that people conduct their everyday lives, let alone traveling. It's become the dominant engine for the way that the pre tour narrative is formed. Many people who use Instagram as a space to learn about places to travel, they will encounter images of these of these places on this app or and not just sort of the way that it's portrayed, but what people do in these spaces, the people that live [00:06:00] in the places they're going to visit. So, this process of the formation of a pre tour narrative has really always been a part of tourism. But I think it perhaps it's if not accelerated, then certainly taken a bit of a different form with the advent of social media.Chris: So on some level, it's not just the question of what you're going to go see, but also how you're going to see it, how you're going to stand in front of that tower or restaurant and see, experience, what's there. Sean: Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Chris: And I know it's a little early in the interview, but I'd like to jump into the heart of the matter and your critiques, if we can. You know, you wrote this incredible article Landscapes for Likes, capitalizing on travel with Instagram. And, in that article, you wrote that, deep breath, "Instagram's networked architecture and affordances produce three [00:07:00] outcomes that circulate and magnify utterances about travel to a degree impossible in pre-networked media.One, a mediated travel habitus hegemonically informs prevailing aesthetic norms. Two, the scalability of embodied performances entrench the motif's narrative underpinnings. And three, the monetizable market of Instagram encourages neoliberal notions of the branded self." Now that's a beautiful mouthful. And so I'm wondering, if you might be willing and able to flesh out these three outcomes for our listeners. Sean: No, that's brilliant. And it's nice to talk about these things, perhaps when they're written that can be quite a bit denser.So maybe we can start with the first idea, this mediated travel habitus. And with the word habitus, I'm trying on the work of [00:08:00] the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu, who theorizes he's talking about class and culture and ways that people display their belonging within a particular class.And the reason that I'm looking to Bordeaux here is tourism and travel, really, it's important to look at this as a practice that has been connected to what Bordeaux might call the pursuit of distinction, to the search for an acquisition of cultural goods. You know, we might think of cultural goods as being a painting or a taste and a particular kind of music, clothes, certain way of speaking even. And when one amasses certain, certain cultural goods, and they're recognized as being part of the upper classes, being marks of somebody who is [00:09:00] sophisticated, somebody who is typically from a fairly privileged financial background, these cultural goods are desirable.So, this background I think is important because tourism from its modern beginnings in the 18th century has been obtaining these experiences and often physical artifacts that can be a way of claiming a certain social status. So, maybe you've discussed this in other podcasts already, but, when the Grand Tour began in the 1600s, but really took off in the 1700s there was this process in which the aristocratic men, young men, were sent on a tour around Europe, and they would go to capitals like Paris, later Vienna, and then especially places like Rome, and, where they could encounter the remnants of the Roman Empire and classical learning. [00:10:00] And this was meant to do a few things in the first sense. It was meant to introduce them other parts of the world, to certain historical understandings. They could refine their Latin. They could get better at French and then they could go home and be recognized as a sophisticated member of the aristocracy. And this practice really became quite popular up until about the turn of the 19th century, when it stopped briefly because of wars on the European continent, and then after the Napoleonic Wars ended, it basically exploded. So when we think about over tourism now in 2023, this was, you know, 1815, 1820s, and this was a period where all of a sudden there were more tourists than ever before.And what that meant is this practice, which had only been done [00:11:00] by the wealthiest classes, was now something that the middle classes could engage in and that produced a kind of anxiety, where how was one able to become a distinguished or sophisticated traveller. How was one able to obtain the cultural goods provided by travel if everyone was doing it?So, the habitus of tourism, the kind of implicitly learned practices and sensibilities that developed during the Grand Tour experienced this period of challenge where people had to look for a way to find distinction by other means. And I think this beginning led to this friction where now you see people who are trying to go places that no other tourists go, trying to take pictures that no other tourists have taken, trying to be the only person in a picture of a [00:12:00] famous place. So this way of understanding how to be a tourist has become enshrined in the kinds of images that we see in a space like, like Instagram to the extent where I think these images are circulating the ideologies of tourism. The scalability refers to, in social media studies, the way in which a single image can achieve a degree of circulation that is not really possible in pre-networked media. So, by networked media, we can think of platforms like Instagram. We can think of Twitter, anything where the possibility of likes and retweets or reposts achieves a degree of visibility what we might call going viral.So what I was writing about in that article was this particular composition called the "promontory witness" where you have typically one [00:13:00] person who's standing on a promontory or we can say the edge of a cliff the top of a building, in front of a waterfall and they're looking really, really small as compared to the vast scale of nature.And people see these images and they understand through the mediation, the widespread circulation of these images, that this means something important about travel. This is what I mean by the mediated habitus of travel, that taking an image like this and being a person in a promontory witness image has a particular value. It is a way of claiming distinction, again, in Rodrigo's terms. And by taking a promontory witness image, one is able to circulate that image on Instagram in a very different way than before the social media platform existed. So, you know, we think about images circulated in tourism before Instagram.It would either be, say, in a family photo album. That people used to have projectors. [00:14:00] People used to maybe send holiday pictures to family and friends, basically whoever they could, you know, show it to, but this is a really, really small circulation, unless somebody was able to get an image in a magazine or some sort of formal publication. But what really shifts with scalable social media is that somebody can take an image and there really is the potential to go viral.I think in Instagram, the potential to have an image seen by a really significant number of people is less than on a platform like Tik Tok. But there remains the possibility if I post a promontory witness image and I put a geo tag in a place that is particularly trendy at this, at this moment and I put the right hashtags that thousands of people can witness this image and because of that possibility, I think there's a degree of enlistment, a degree of interest in [00:15:00] participating in this trend because taking a promontory witness picture is going to have much more possibility of going viral of leveraging these architectures, these scalable architectures.Much more so than if it just take, if I take another image that isn't so popular on a platform like Instagram. Chris: Thank you. Thank you, Sean. Yeah. So there's, there's a lot in there I'm going to come back to in just a little bit. But I wanted to just finish off this one last part because you kind of, you know, mentioned it a little bit.The monetizable market of Instagram that encourages neoliberal notions of the brand itself. And, you know, I pulled this, this other sentence from one of your articles where you write that "as a banal mediator of travel and tourism, Instagram can encourage tourists to imagine themselves as a capital generating brand." Sean: It's really a comment on the attention economy structure of social media platforms, [00:16:00] where I want people to see my pictures and I want to get likes.And I say that very much as being somebody who continues to study social media and tourism from a critical angle. When I post something I'm always aware of how it's going to be received. Some part of me, even when I'm very aware of the issues with thinking this way potentially is I always want it to gain more visibility.If I post something and it has less likes than something I posted previously, this will likely incur some degree of thinking, what did I do wrong? What could I have done differently? You know, maybe I'm just produced such interesting content. And what I think is really taking place there is that we're constantly thinking about ways to achieve visibility in a way that is not dissimilar to the kind of negotiation that celebrities and [00:17:00] other public figures have to go through when managing their, what we might in today's terms, call their brand, where because there is always this metric of how popular one is or how visible one is in the form of likes or in the form of reposts or retweets or what have you it's means that we develop a way of always orienting towards this possible public. We're always thinking about the people that are going to see whatever kind of thing we say online, and we, I think much of the time, are hoping that it's going to be received.If not, you know, people are going to like it, if it is going to maybe change the way that people think about something, if it's going to influence them in some way. And Instagram, of course, is like other social media platforms, is monetizable in the sense that when one gets a lot of followers, you know, if I continually create fantastic travel content and I get tens of thousands or more followers, then [00:18:00] that means that I am able to start making money from it. I'm going to be paid by different companies to come and stay at a resort or go on some sort of guided tour and take an image or make a reel of this experience and post it on Instagram, talk about how great it was, and then tag the company.And that's a way of them bringing in business. This is how advertising works. So, people become advertisers. But even before that influencer level, I think those of us who are not influencers, and I am certainly not, there's a degree to which we are participating in this logic because even if we don't have any designs of becoming influencers, we still want our posts to be liked and this ultimately influences not just posts we make, but the kind of traveling we do and the kind of relationship we have with the places to which we travel.Hmm. Chris: Well [00:19:00] contentious at the very least. But thank you for that, Sean, for being able to flesh that out for us. And I'd like to return back to this notion of the promontory witness, and you know, because even before Instagram I remember seeing in my backpacking years, these same photos, right?The photo of the person, of their back to the camera facing the open horizon, you know, whether it be a cliff face or a desert or whatever it is, and spreading their hands or arms and, just this kind of emanating freedom, I guess.But you also mentioned that this kind of perspective, if you want to call it that, manufactures emptiness because there's nobody else in the photo, and this is so much a part of the kind of sometimes they're Instagram reels, or sometimes they're photos of people, what it looks like when people are at tourist destinations, actually taking the [00:20:00] photo in front of the Eiffel Tower, or the Great Wall, or the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or whatever, and there's actually hundreds.And thousands of people taking the same photo or trying to, and everyone wants to have that photo without anyone else in it. And so, just a little preamble to the question again, in Landscapes for Likes, you write that "this manufacturing of emptiness privileges tourists as the sole consumers of a landscape, and with its residents hidden from view, a landscape is voided of its human and temporal context. Thus abstracted, place is relevant as little but a visual commodity." And then just another quote that I think brings a little something else to the picture is that "the promontory witness motif scrubs the landscape of the tourist destination of any sign of human habitation, but that of the tourist, singularly pictured in a position of mastery that confers [00:21:00] possession over the destination." And so there seems to be a kind of shared understanding in critical tourism studies that modern and especially social media based travel photography emphasizes empty spaces, of course, minus the Instagram user, the person photographing question. And so I'm curious, why is identifying the emptying of the landscape so important for our understanding?What does it do to us as photo viewers? Sean: Yeah, that's an excellent question and I think I'm very, I'm very interested in this composition, which the lone tourist and the landscape, which, mean, other people before me have pointed to, and at least John Urry.And I think there are two things happening here. For one, it's the kind of picture that's due to the mediation of what we can think of as a travel habitus, due to the way that [00:22:00] people have learned about how to do tourism and to represent themselves doing tourism and the most sophisticated way or in the way that is the most likely to gain them social distinction. They take these images because they've seen these images before and they're attractive images as well. Maybe they're attractive because we have, through seeing so many pictures like them, we've been taught or sort of subconsciously imbibed the aesthetics as being something that we value and are attracted to.One degree of what's of what's taking place. And to another extent, when it comes to this notion of possessing something of being the only person that that goes there, this kind of image of the tourist being the only person in a landscape or in front of some sort of cultural monument is , a way of [00:23:00] claiming a symbolic status, which links back to this ideology of getting off the beaten track. So, I imagine if you're experience backpacking and my own there's a real interest in getting off the beaten path, of going to places that aren't touristy, of being a traveler and not a tourist. And part of the way that the success in getting off the beaten track is signified is being the only person in a photograph.You know, we as backpackers or tourists don't want to be associated with other tourists. And there's very little better way to represent not being another tourist than being the only person in a particular image.Chris: Yeah, it [00:24:00] makes you wonder. And putting together the research for this episode, I came to this, this kind of possibility, question, consternation, And it arose in this way. And so the, the next question, which kind of relates to the last one is, do you think there might be, or is a connection here between the emptying of the photo of humans or locals and the emptying of places of humans and locals, and that is in the context of the gentrification of local people and culture in tourist destinations. Sean: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a very good point. I think especially because gentrification is aesthetically produced through a kind of emptiness or a kind of minimalism. And this gentrified neighborhood is not something that is crowded. It is not some place that there are a lot of wayward signs, [00:25:00] wayward, quote unquote.It is a space which is typically designed according to what might be understood as a globalized regime of clean lines and interesting fonts and a lot of white space. So thinking about the way that that works and everything from upmarket coffee shops to designing neighborhoods that are meant to attract capital on upper middle class consumers and residents.I think that does link quite persuasively with this desire to be the only person within this landscape. I mean, what ultimately is taking place in both processes is that, no matter where somebody is going and taking a promontory witness picture, there are people who live there. There's people who've always lived there and been a part, in many ways, of the land that is being made into a landscape.And by not including [00:26:00] them, within these pictures or in processes of gentrification, actually through state-sanctioned programs or other forms of state-sanctioned investment, local residents are being pushed out to make way for different people, the tourist in this case. There is a process of erasure and, and often what can be conceived as really a very colonial process of taking over, taking over a space and privileging the owners of capital, who in this case, typically are tourists.And of course, it's a little bit different when you're taking a picture versus when you're taking a picture in a place that is not considered part of the Global North. But tourists typically have a lot more privilege and financial resources than local residents.And when they're not in these images, but the places in which they are are included, then at least when we're seeing pictures of it, how [00:27:00] do we imagine who, who controls the space? How do we imagine who has a right to this space? It would be the person in the photograph, the tourist, rather than the people who actually live, work, and, and shape these landscapes.Okay. Chris: Since Instagram tends to be the go to medium for these images and for images in general, as far as social media is concerned, do you think that Instagram then is a tool and driver of gentrification? Could we say that with a sense of coherence? Sean: I think it's as much a tool as, as many other tools and it is very easily leveraged to that end by actors who are seeking to mobilize processes of gentrification. And then I think this is pretty well documented for instance, in Yoo Jung oh's article Instagaze, Aesthetic Representation and Contested Transformation of Woljeong, South Korea.Well, she was [00:28:00] writing about Jeju Island in South Korea, and how once tourists started to take particular forms of images often of being one person in a beach, then different interests were able to move in and realize the value of this image and find ways to capitalize on all of the tourists that wanted to come and take that same image. So what that led to was the beach front where, this is largely a fishing community and other sort of small scale, more artisanal economies, was remade into cafes and restaurants and guest houses in a process that.I think it can be widely recognized in tourism development around the world. But what the author, Yu Jung Oh, is saying, is showing there, is that this was largely motivated by the ability to take this image, that [00:29:00] a tourist could go and purchase a coffee or something, and they would be able to take that image for their Instagram. So there's a really clear linkage there and I think that linkage can be made in many other places as well. But I think in that sense, Instagram and social media is, is can be leveraged for gentrification as, as many other tools can be and are being.Chris: Thank you, Sean. And so, know, for the rest of our time together, I'd like to kind of lean on you a little bit for your personal opinion. I know that sometimes working in and living in academic worlds that's kind of something to be left the doorstep before you walk in. But you know, you mentioned this notion of networked media and pre networked media and kind of social media falling into this wider term of networked media and since these mediums have only come to exist, in terms of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, [00:30:00] we're talking 15 years at the most, and then the extension or prototypes of those existing in the previous 10. So about 25 years, maybe. And I'm curious in this regard you know, I imagine that you're about my age, maybe a little bit younger so I'm curious if you have a lived memory of how things were before social media and perhaps even before the internet, what do you think we might be losing by virtue of not being able to remember the world without social media Sean: yeah, great question. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, very good question. Very, of course, fraught. So I guess for context, I was born in 1988. And. So I, got a cell phone at 16, and again, I got a smartphone and Instagram and WhatsApp. So I'm really in two minds about this. And in the first sense, I think it's important to be aware of [00:31:00] how with any new technology there's a great deal of anxiety and resistance and what might be called panic. And this isn't just social media or it's not just television, but we can go all the way back to radio, to novels.People were worried about that, to the written word back in the ancient Greek era. People were concerned that when we start writing things down, this is going to make it very difficult to remember things, and we're going to be less successful orators and our reasoning will be diluted because we start writing things down.So there's always this kind of fear of new technology, and part of me wants to recognize that this is just another one of those periods in which some sort of transformative technology comes along and many of [00:32:00] the generation who can remember what it was like beforehand is going to feel varying degrees of nostalgia for that period.That said, it's also difficult to not, at the same time, say that something really significant has, has, has happened, to not feel, I mean, honestly, I do certainly feel nostalgia for periods before social media. Some of the things which I think have been changed is the interest in finding ways to represent oneself, traveling. And this isn't to say that whenever one goes somewhere, one is always sort of seeing it as if from the viewfinder or, well, it wouldn't really be a viewfinder of a camera so much as, you know, one's phone screen.But that leads to. In being very interested in taking images that would be successful within the attention economies of a platform like Instagram, it can be difficult to [00:33:00] not see the world as if from the perspective of what would make a good picture for Instagram. There's a lot of different people who've come up with critiques of this process.I mean, if you think about it in terms of spectacle, you know, like Guy DuBord's idea that we're no longer, and he was writing in the 60s, you know, that we are seeing relationships, not between people, but between people and images. And so some sort of fundamental human connection is being lost because all we're doing is just relating to images and using images to relate to other people.I'm not so sure about universalizing that idea, but the ubiquity of social media and the Challenges to not somehow be on one of these platforms, in some even practical way does mean, I think, that there are significant influences in tourism as much as anything. Chris: Yeah, my my phone died the other day, abruptly. [00:34:00] And you know, I still have this computer that thankfully allows me to have this interview with you. And I can still access Facebook and Twitter, but for whatever reason, I can't access Instagram. And you know, it's been a few days and I'm really loving it.And then this morning I realized that I had planned to upload a post for the podcast. And then I was just like, okay, well, my best recourse of action is to just stay calm and wait, right? Yeah, and it's a big question, and I think it's something that, I wonder if young people, say people born, you know, 2000 or after would be able to answer with, with any, without having lived in a time without social media, for example. And so this kind of like brings us a little bit towards the towards theme of media ecology, which, you know, we talked about just very briefly before we started our interview here and I had taken Andrew McLuhan's Understanding Media [00:35:00] Intensive last year.He was also on the pod in the, in season three and just generally speaking for our listeners media ecology, within media ecology, the focus is on the medium and not just the message. It's a way of taking to task the context of our technology and not just the content.And so this manufacturing of emptiness of people and places as brands and I'm curious, isn't this to a large extent, also contingent on our tools, on the limits and architecture of the camera, for example? You know, do we stop with Instagram or do we look at all social media and later all tools? Because these media exist within each other, right?Instagram is a medium within the internet, I suppose, and then the internet is a medium within the phone. Maybe you could make that argument. It's not to say, if we didn't have these things, if we didn't have Instagram, if we didn't have [00:36:00] social media, would the promontory witness just disappear? I don't think it's as easy as that. But Would it be as intensely magnified in our time? Sean: So yes, I think the question of magnification is really what sits at the heart of social media because if we're looking at the medium of Instagram, then we have to think about photography and which was invented in the 1840s.And then if we think about photography, we have to think about painting the way that landscape has been represented in many different cultures, both in painting in the Western, Chinese and many other traditions, but then also in poetry and literature. So with all of these things, there's a precedent.And I think if you look at something like the Promontory Witness, this composition and this the visual formation of having one person immersed within a landscape or standing at some edge of a cliff, that's been around for [00:37:00] 200 years at least. You can see some in the later 1700s that look like this, but then the desire to be the only person in a particular place to have gotten off of the beaten track and be the distinguished traveler, that's also been around for, for a very long time. So that's why I think I'm hesitant to sort of pin the blame on Instagram.And I think my thinking around this has taken a bit of it, not exactly a turn, but it's changed a bit. So I think there's a real tendency to look at platforms like Instagram as only being spaces in which processes of gentrification can gain momentum, or only be spaces where one is almost disciplined into being a neoliberal subject who, is working sort of subconsciously thinking about how to brand oneself all the time, specifically in places of tourism, you know, that it's a way that people [00:38:00] only think about the pictures. They only want to go take a picture in these places. They don't actually want to have any experiences in this place or relationships with the people there. And I think that really exists. That is absolutely one dimension of what takes place with social media platforms. But as many people I've spoken to say, social media is a double edged sword. And where that's really been driven home to me has been where I've been conducting research for the past almost two years now. Sometimes they're in person, other times digitally, in Oman, a country in the Arabian peninsula where I was interested initially because it was becoming more popular as an international tourism destination. So, I went there after the pandemic expecting to meet all these people who were experiencing the problematics of international tourism as we know well, I think from your podcast among other, among other spaces.And there's some of that, absolutely. But what I also found was that, in the past few [00:39:00] years, people who are living in Oman, and this is both Omanis, people who have citizenship and then also residents, so there's about 40 percent of the country is made up of people who don't have citizenship in Oman, like many other Gulf countries.And in the past few years, I mean, we're talking five years, maximum ten years, there's been this surge of interest in nature, or we can say is the non human or even the more than human environment and what's can be understood as domestic nature tourism, I think, like many places around the world, domestic nature tourism in Oman became was very popularized during the pandemic when people could not travel abroad. But what this meant is that people saw these images on Instagram and Instagram is really most popular app in Oman, next to WhatsApp, and that introduced them to parts of the country that they'd never [00:40:00] interacted with before.And Oman is this incredibly various and fascinating environment where there's mountains that are, you know, over 3, 000 meters higher, what is that 10, 000 feet you know, all of this coastline and with coral reefs and these waddies or slot canyons. And people began to engage with the environments in a very different way to go on hiking trips, to go on canyoning trips and social media was this massive part of that. You know, this is where people learned about this possibility, this is where people met people to introduce them, to take them safely into these spaces. They'd never been on a hike before. You know, Instagram is where they're going to meet somebody to go out into nature with.And it's not to say that this doesn't have problems associated with it, and everything I suppose related with tourism does, but I think it also represents a case where Instagram, in this sense, was a way that people are actively connecting to nature, and in a place [00:41:00] where, you know, Instagram existed and was widely used before nature tourism was a thing.And I think this kind of flips the narrative a bit where in Western Europe, where I'm sitting right now, for instance, there's been this long time practice of nature tourism, you know, going back to, again, the 1900s. You know, people started climbing Alps in the 1850s and so forth. And then Instagram comes along and everybody's saying, oh, people just want to climb the mountain to take a picture. you know, they don't actually care about nature. Well, in Oman, people weren't really, not that many people were climbing mountains, before the ability to take a picture existed. So, there's a bit of a different trajectory in which people began to relate to a particular space and to the kinds of experiences that one can have engaging in nature tourism.So in that sense to go back to your to your question about what do we essentially do with this platform? [00:42:00] And how do we address the problematics? I don't think that I mean, I think that Instagram will not be the most popular platform forever, certainly, but social media, or this kind of connected media, barring some kind of unforeseen complication. I mean, looking at you, AI. But this sort of communication is here to stay probably. So, can we find ways in which this space is can be generative of community could be generative of care and ethical forms of travel? What might that look like? And what kind of imagery might be associated with it?Chris: I'm curious in that regard, Oman to me is someone who's never been and probably, you know extremely ignorant to any of the nation's culture or history. I imagine modernity to be something of a recent arrival in that place, relatively speaking, correct me if I'm wrong, of course. And I guess what I'm curious about in the context of your research and most [00:43:00] recent research is if you've seen the conflicts that might arise in terms of traditional hospitality? What it means to be in a place, as opposed to a landscape, what it means to be a host, as opposed to, I guess a landlord, in the Airbnb sense of the word and perhaps also what it means to be a traveler as opposed to a tourist within the context of these new economic dynamics in Oman and if Instagram has anything to do with that? Sean: No, that's, that's a wonderful question. It's one I really appreciate as I continue to work there and spend time with people who've been incredibly generous showing me around and introducing me to what their life is like as people who participate in tourism. I mean, the first thing I would say is the Oman, the Arabian peninsula and really Arabic speaking cultures generally is hospitality is one of the most fundamentally [00:44:00] important things in social relationships. In what it means to be a part of this culture, one is hospitable to guests, to friends, to family members. It's almost difficult to understate how integral this is. I mean, it is, in many cultures, hospitality is big, but it's very big in this space.And so I think it's a particularly well suited question to, you know, how is tourism and how is social media impacting this code of conduct and, you know this really wonderful practice that I think, you know, the rest of the world can stand to learn a lot from.So, to your question about sort of where my mind sits in this span of development. Oil was discovered in the 1960s and kind of transformative effect as it has everywhere. And in this time, there was a great degree of urbanization. People could get services rather than relying on culture, trading, which comes from a pre oil economy.[00:45:00] Now, you see, I think, a couple things. For one thing, cultures of hospitality, I think, were already being disturbed by the way that neoliberal capitalism tends to work, not just in Oman, but anywhere around the world. It encourages people to find ways to profit themselves and to think as individual agents rather than as being part of a community, having responsibilities to the humans, but also nonhumans to the land as well as to one's family.So that process is already in it's already taking place before tourism began to take root. And I think there are some spaces in which tourism is developing in such a way that it's very profit oriented. And where people are incentivized to privilege [00:46:00] their own gains over those of others.However, there are other ways I think in which people who, say we're living in the city, are meeting people who live in fairly remote areas, under the auspices of tourism. Because they're engaging in tourism, they're meeting people who are living in these spaces and often chatting with them or sharing a meal or sharing coffee or something like this.Sometimes these people who are living in places that are becoming tourism destinations are part of the industry and sometimes people are not, but as it stands now, it seems as very much a preservation of hospitality within this, this particular context. As with anything, I think the question of tourism is to what extent this will become commodified or not, like how do we make money off of this culture of hospitality?How do we turn it into a tourist product? You know, we can sell Oman as being it's hospitable, come meet the locals. But in the way that people continue [00:47:00] to practice it, both people who are living in Oman and being domestic tourists and also people who are seeing tourists come to where they live in ways that they haven't before. To me, it still seems like it's very robustly in place.Chris: Good to hear. And I very much look forward to the publication of your research. Hopefully it'll see the light of day soon, perhaps. Sean: I hope so. Yeah. Things are in process for sure. Chris: Okay. Well, I'd like to thank you, Sean, on behalf of our listeners for joining us today. And you know, this leads me of course, to the question of how might they be able to get in touch with you or follow your work. And if that includes an Instagram handle. Sean: Yeah, that's, that's fine. So I I recently started another Instagram account. I had my own account and stopped posting about 2019.And then I got interested in it again. I opened a new account, which is sort of more research facing. So yeah, if people wanna check that [00:48:00] out, it's @SPSMITHS, so S-P-S-M-I-T-H-S or email spSmith@tilburguniversity.edu. So always pleased to hear ideas and of course things that I've missed because of course I have so much to learn in this space.So I would really look forward to feedback and ideas. Hmm. Chris: Well, I'll make sure all of that's on the End of Tourism website and the podcast page when the interview launches and as well as the other authors, researchers and works that you mentioned earlier on. So once again, it's been amazing, Sean, thank you so much for being able to really flesh these complex ideas out for us and we'll see what happens, right?Sean: Absolutely. Thanks very much for the invitation. And as always, I'll look forward to continue listening. This is such an excellent project. Chris: Thank you, Sean.This episode and others like it are created and made possible by the generosity of Substack subcribers like yourself. Similarly, I have subsidized the work of the pod with my own time and money. This is a labour of love and lineage that requires the support of others. Please consider offering a gift in return, whether that include upgrading to paid subscription, making a one-time donation, sharing the podcast among your people or being willing to reach out and assist in production (as others have). Thank you. Bless. Peace. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode, my guests are Martin Lena and Linda Poppe of Survival International. They join me to discuss “fortress conservation” in the Congo, the issues facing Kahuzi-Biega National Park, and the recent victories of Survival International there. Linda is a political scientist and director of the Berlin office of Survival International, the global movement for Indigenous peoples' rights. She is also part of Survival's campaign to Decolonize Conservation, which supports Indigenous peoples, who continue to suffer land theft and human rights abuses in the name of conservation.Martin is an advocacy officer for Survival International. He primarily works on Survival's campaign to Decolonize Conservation and has collected testimonies directly from communities facing violations of their rights in the name of conservation. Show Notes:What Conservation Looks like in the Democratic Republic of the CongoThe Evictions of the BatwaSafari Tourism in DRC ConflictThe Militarization of Conservation in Kahuzi-Biega National ParkLand Guards vs Land GuardiansOrganizing Victory! Scrapping French Involvement in Kahuze-BiegaThe German Government Continues to Fund the ParkSolidarity: How to Respond / Act in ConcertHomework:Survival International: French government scraps funding plan for Kahuzi-Biega National Park, citing human rights concernsSurvival International Decolonize Conservation CampaignBalancing Act: The Imperative of Social and Ecological Justice in Kahuzi-BiegaTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the End of Tourism Podcast, Martin and Linda. I'd love it if I could start by asking you two to explain to our listeners where you two find yourselves today and what the world looks like there for you. Linda: Well, hi everyone. My name is Linda. I work for Survival International and I'm in Berlin. I'm at home, actually, and I look forward to talking to you and chatting with you.It's dark outside already, but, well, that's, I guess, the time of the year. Martin: And I'm based in Paris, also at home, but I work at Survival's French office. And how does the world feel right now? It feels a bit too warm for October, but other than that. Chris: Well, thank you both for for joining me today. I'd like to begin by reminiscing on the season three interview that I had with your colleague Fiore Longo, entitled "Decolonizing Conservation in Africa and Beyond."And in that interview, we discussed the history [00:01:00] of conservation as colonization in the context of Tanzania and the national parks that were built there and the indigenous lands that were stolen in order to do so. I'm curious if you two could offer a bit of background for our listeners in terms of the history of conservation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and especially in regards to the Batwa people and the Kahuzi Biega National Park.Linda: We were quite you know, astonished of the colonial history that, we find in the park where we're here to discuss today. Well, the Congo, obviously, you know, was a colony. And I think in this context, we also need to look at the conservation that is happening in the DRC today.And a lot of the things that you have discussed with our colleague, feel very true for the DRC as well. And the, the park that we're going to look at today, I think it's probably [00:02:00] also the best example to start to explain a little bit what conservation looks like in DRC. It's an older park, so it was created a longer time ago, and it was always regarded as something that is there to protect precious nature for people to look at and not for people to go and live in.And this is exactly what the problem is today, which we see continues, that the people that used to live on this land are being pushed outside violently, separated from the land which they call home, which is everything for them, the supermarket, the church, the school, just in the name of conserving supposed nature.And unfortunately, this is something that we see all over the DRC and different protected areas that exist there, that we still follow this colonial idea of mostly European [00:03:00] conservationists in history and also currently that claim that they're protecting nature, often in tandem with international conservation NGOs.In the park we look at today, it's the Wildlife Conservation Society, and they're, yeah, trying to get rid of the original inhabitants that have guarded these spaces for such a long time. Martin: To build on that, in our campaign to decolonize conservation and survival, we often say that fortress conservation has deep colonial roots and you can definitely see that with the the actual history of the of Kahuzi Biega National Park because it started as a reserve that was created by the Belgian colonial government in 1937 and It was transformed into a national park after independence.So in the 70s, but it was still designated as such following the lobbying of a Belgian conservationist. So it's really the continuation the Western and the European will to keep controlling the, [00:04:00] the independent territories. And that in Africa oftentimes was done through conservation.Linda: And it also has this idea of, I think a lot of the conservation projects that we see, Martin just said it, there was also this post independence push on creating national parks, which was obviously related to the idea that Europeans might lose hold of control in certain areas, so they were pushing for the creation of national parks like the Kahuzi Biega National Park.And that is the setting that we're talking about, basically, something that has very colonial roots and has been pushed into the post colonial era, but in a way which is actually very colonial. Chris: Thank you both for that brief, brief history and introduction into what we'll be speaking about today, Linda, you mentioned that so many of the circumstances around the creation of these national parks includes the exclusion and [00:05:00] displacement of the original inhabitants.And in this case, among others, this includes the Batwa people. And so I'd like to just give our listeners a little bit of a context for what's happened to the Batwa in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And so the statistics tell us that "over 90 percent of the 87, 000 indigenous Batwa people in the park have lost legal access to their native territory, turned into conservation areas, and who are desperately poor," according to a 2009 United Nations report.Now, in a recent Reuters article, it's written that, quote, "Local human rights and environmental experts say that the authorities failure to fulfill promises to the Batwa has undermined efforts to protect the forest and its endangered species, including some of the last populations of eastern lowland gorilla.Some of the Batwa around the [00:06:00] park participate in the illegal poaching, mining, and logging that are destroying the gorilla's globally significant habitat. As a result, the conservation outlook for the park is critical, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature." The article goes further and says that "the Batwa have no choice because they are poverty stricken, according to Josue Aruna, president of the province's environmental civil society group, who does community outreach for the Batwa." It seems in this way that the land rights and traditional lifestyles of the Batwa are intimately tied to the health and survival of the ecosystems within the national park, which they've been excluded from, and that their poverty is a consequence of their displacement. Do you think that the issue is as simple as that? Martin: It's always interesting to read these reports from the conservationists, whether it's the IUCN or the NGOs, because the problem is always "the local people. So they are poor and they [00:07:00] have no choice. They participate in poaching." and it's always their fault.Like you were saying, if they end up being poor it's because they were evicted from the land. And as Linda was saying earlier, the forest and the land more generally is everything to them or was everything to them. So it's not only the place where they get food, it's also the whole basis of their identity and their way of life.So once they lose that, they end up in our world, capitalist system, but at the lowest possible level. So, that's why they end up in poverty. But it's a problem that was created by the conservationists themselves. And even when you read Their discourse or their position about trying to improve the situation for the Batwa, it's always about generating revenue ,lifting them out of poverty, developing alternative livelihoods. But what we are campaigning for is not some alternative to the loss of their rights. It's Their land rights themselves. And to go to your other question [00:08:00] about the fact that the loss of their land rights has led to a degrading in the health of the ecosystem.I think, yes, for sure. That has been the case, and it's what we're seeing all around the world in these protected areas that are supposed to protect nature. But actually, once you evict the best conservationists and the people that were taking care of the land for decades, then there is room for all kinds of exploitation whether it be mass tourism or luxury safaris or even mining and logging concessions.So it's not a coincidence if 80 percent of the biodiversity on the planet is located in indigenous territories. It's because they have lived in the land. It's not wild nature. They have lived there for generations. They have protected it and they have shaped it through their practices. So, to us, the best way to protect this ecosystem is to ensure that their land rights are respected and blaming them for poaching or putting that on the fact that they are poor, it's just [00:09:00] dishonest and ignoring the basis of the problem.Linda: Yeah. I agree. And when you just read out these sentences, I noted down like the way it was formulated, as a result, the park is threatened. It's again, just focusing on the local people as being the problem. Like the protected areas, they are to protect an area from the local people, which I think becomes very clear in the way you explained it. And also, like, Martin, I'm quite struck by the idea that they talk about poor people, but ignoring that, you know, their actions that of the Batwa have also caused this poverty. So it's, in a way, you know, first you make people poor and then you kind of insult them almost for being poor and then, you know, acting accordingly.I think that is quite, you know, ignoring what has happened. And I think it's the same with [00:10:00] the general model of conservation. Like the sentences you read, I mean, there is some sympathy in it, you know, it sounds like, "oh, these poor people," you know, "in a way we regret what has happened and that they were evicted."But it's like "those poor people," they don't really look at, you know, why were they evicted and what are the consequences for our kind of conservation today? Like the consequence could be that the Batwa can return to their land because they are the best guardians and because it would give them a base to, to live, not in poverty.So that consequence, they don't see it's because they ignore all the things that have caused the supposed poverty and have caused this kind of conservation that we see. So, don't think about what we've done in the past, we'll just go on, but that is a problem because they don't learn any lessons from what has happened and that land rights should be so important.Chris: Yeah, I think that it definitely points towards this notion that I think a lot of people are becoming apt to in our [00:11:00] times in these days, which is the general kind of approach to the dilemmas in these contexts are to look at the symptoms of the dilemma and not the causes.And in the context of the eviction and exile, displacement of the Batwa people, one of the articles mentions that "one of the consequences of the induced poverty includes the endangering and further endangering of the eastern lowland gorilla." And I mention this because in my research leading up to this interview, this conversation, I looked into the tourism offerings in Kahuzi Biega, in the National Park, and I found the following.I'm just gonna read off a list of what I did find. " Gorilla safaris, or trekking. Chimpanzee Rehabilitation Center tours. Camping safaris. Cultural tours. Bird [00:12:00] watching. Hiking. Climbing and boat cruises." And so my next question is this. To what extent does the safari tourism in the national park play a part in this conflict?Linda: Oh, that's a super interesting question. I mean, it obviously depends on the specific park that you look at. But I think I would say in almost any national park that we look at in Survival, there is some kind of idea that this park needs to have tourists. Tourists need to come and go and see the beauty of nature, ideally Western tourists, so that they become involved in conservation and donate money, and also in a way that tourism would be a way to pay for services that are related to maintaining the park.So it's something that usually always pops up. It's kind of, it's like twins a little bit. And, you know, I, I work on, on [00:13:00] mostly German politics and how they relate to this conservation. And it's something that you can't really separate where you read about conservation projects that the German government funds, you will always also read about tourism.So they're very interlinked. In some parks, you know, there isn't a lot of tourism because the situation is not very attractive to western tourists, but the idea is always there. And then the extent to which tourism actually happens obviously differs and then has different effects. In some parks that we work on, There's a lot of tourism, there's a lot of creation of infrastructure for tourists, hotels, for roads, for tourist vehicles to go places.Then it obviously has a much stronger impact on the area and also on the people that live there. If there are less tourists, then the actual effect of tourism is, of course, a little bit less than it might sound in these proposals to have tourists there at all.Chris: In the [00:14:00] context of conflict zones, which from what I understand this particular park in the Congo is a conflict zone, or at least parts of it, that tourism can act as a kind of barrier between local populations or local ecologies and the consequences of those conflict zones, right? But it doesn't necessarily stop the conflict. It just turns it underground, it turns a kind of blind eye to it, waiting, in most instances that I know of, until the organized crime in the area ends up getting, you know, their hands into the economy of, of the tourism itself.Martin: Yeah, I mean, I agree with Linda that it's always there and it's always under the discourse and it's never only about conservation, there's always tourism. And often the national parks are created for this purpose. If you read the UNESCO definition or the IUCN definition of what a national park is, it says it's also for [00:15:00] recreation.So these places are built for tourists. against the locals. So, yeah, it's always there and it's even in the definition.Linda: So yeah, when you said tourism is a barrier in some cases tourism can amplify the problems that are there because there is more eviction or there's more interest of, for example, governments to evict people, to create this great picture of nature, which is so attractive to tourists.So I think, I would find it as something that can really worsen the situation. I think from what I've seen, you know. We sometimes talk about sustainable tourism or respectful tourism, but in the terms of conservation projects, my impression really is that it's been harmful.And the indigenous populations that work in tourism, which is one of the things that funders of conservation projects often [00:16:00] say, that they can find jobs in tourism. A lot of these jobs are not very good. And I would argue that a lot of times people need to take these jobs because they have lost the choice to not take a job and live from the forest.Chris: Yeah, it's an interesting thing to wonder about in the little research that I did around what's happening in this particular park in the Congo, that there are rebel groups. It is a conflict zone, and yet there are these tourism offerings, right? And that surely, the champions of the National Park and conservation and in many areas would say, "well, you know, the more, the more tourism we can get in here the more we can undermine at least the economic causes if not the political ones that are contributing to the violence," when in fact, from what I can understand from Survival's work, that this is just deepens the causes that produced that conflict and that exile in the first place.Linda: Yeah. And I think there's also [00:17:00] perception of injustice, which we shouldn't underestimate. I mean, if you're an indigenous person that has been violently evicted or whose family has been violently evicted from a certain area, and then you see, Western tourists mostly, which are rich, you know, pay a lot of money for these trips, are allowed to go in and use that area in a way. I think that also creates, yeah, a sense of injustice, which is also, yeah, it's quite, quite sad. Chris: Mm hmm. Definitely. And then that's certainly what we see in over touristed places around the world and in places that are just starting to become over touristed, this kind of deep resentment amongst locals for the inequalities, the growing inequalities and yeah, as well, the injustices that these industries bring.And so on that point of conflict zones, especially in and around Kahuzi Biega. I wanted to ask you both a question around the militarization of conservation. So, [00:18:00] some people believe that militarized park police, which is what exists in this park, are a necessary evil.Officially, at least, "the guards protect the park from armed militias or rebel groups in the area, ensuring that they stay out of the park." Of course, those who they confront and sometimes attack also include the indigenous people, the Batwa in this case, who are trying to retake and reclaim their ancestral lands.And the argument is that without the guards, the land would fall into the hands of much more malevolent groups or forces. And so how do you think the presence of armed conflict as well as militarized conservation guards complicates the issue? Linda: That's a tough question. Well, maybe I can just give like a little anecdote.It was actually about this park, the [00:19:00] Kahuzi Biega National Park, and we were talking to German politicians and government officials about the problem of conflict and about the problem that these park rangers you know, are trained and have a lot of weapons, which seems very militant. And they, they were seeing the problem.They were seeing that this is probably not the best thing they should do, support security forces in an area which is already so problematic. But their thinking was, if we don't give them the money, now we have created this this force, basically. We have hired people, we have trained them.Now, if we stop supporting them, what are they going to do? You know, they're gonna maybe take the training and their weapons and make it even worse. So in a way, I mean, this was off record, right? They were just kind of thinking out loud. But in a way, they were seeing that the projects that they have supported have created structures which [00:20:00] very likely will increase conflict.And it seems quite obvious also because you see all these conflicts with indigenous peoples. So, I'm not going to say that it's a very peaceful area and there is not a need maybe for people to defend themselves. But in a way, the structures that we have in militarized conservation are not the solution.You know, they make the situation much more complicated than it initially was. And now, like, in this park, we're in a situation where we witness terrible human rights abuses, and everyone's scared to act and do something because it could get even worse. And it's, yeah, it doesn't seem like a very good solution.I think we need another way. We can't just stick our head, and say, oh, you know, we just go on, we'll just go on and then let someone else deal with it in a few years. I don't think that's a very good solution. Very good example.Martin: And it's questionable also to what extent do these these guards, these armed [00:21:00] rangers actually protect the, the parks and the species because they are here supposedly to fight against illegal wildlife trade and poaching and everything.But what studies have shown is that the root cause of of poaching and of the, of the illegal wildlife trade is mostly the demand for such products that comes from industrialized countries or at least other parts of the world and the system is made for the guards to take action against the local population and not against the actual criminal networks that lead to illegal wildlife trade and poaching.They get money for people they arrest and the easiest people to find are the locals that are trying to get to their ancestral lands. And there's also sometimes the park management involved in these criminal networks. So, you pretend to put in place a system to fight against illegal wildlife trade, but there ends up being no choice but [00:22:00] for the guards to, to take on the local people. Linda: Maybe we should also think about the indigenous populations as guards, or maybe guardians is the better word, of this area. And if we zoom out of the DRC and look at South America, where we have much stronger land rights... it's not perfect, but of course, better for indigenous people.They often act as guardians or guards of these territories, even though they're also confronted with illegal logging, quite brutal illegal logging, for example. But in a way, they are there and they, of course, are supported by authorities ideally, in defending these territories, but you see a less violent or militarized conflict because you have the indigenous guardians, as opposed to starting out with their protected [00:23:00] areas and armed guards, which are not just there to defend themselves, but have extensive rights of use of violence, and they don't have to fear any repercussions if something goes wrong and they kill, for example, an indigenous person.I mean, that's what we've seen in this park, that they can basically act with impunity. Chris: And thank you, Linda, for offering that example of the difference or the contrast between places like the Kahuzi Biega National Park and the DRC and other places in South America, for example, where there is this inherited intergenerational understanding of guardianship and while there's only maybe a half a century of conservation industry in these places, of course, they're an extension of the colonial project or projects that were undertaken much further back in time in places like Africa and places like the DRC before it was known as such.And then what happens, you know, after X amount of [00:24:00] generations after this kind of exile and displacement, that there is no lived memory anymore of what it means to be a guardian of your place. And I don't just mean as a title, but in terms of how you guard that place, as an indigenous person.We might be able to say that the Western world or the modern world that that's very much what we've become is people who are unable to remember or have a lived memory of what it's like to adequately stand as guardians for a place. You know, I think with the work that you two in Survival International are doing, there's a path forward towards that.And I'd like to remind our listeners that we're also here speaking today in part because there was a victory that was won by Survival International on behalf of the Batwa people and activists like yourself. And so I'd like to just read very briefly from [00:25:00] July 2023 press release from Survival International, in which it is said that, quote, "in a landmark decision, the French government has scrapped its plan to fund the controversial Kahuzi Biega National Park in the Democratic Republic of the Congo."France's Minister of State for Development, francophonie and International Partnerships, Chrysoula Zacharopoulou, confirmed that the plan to begin financing the Kahuzi Biega National Park has been scrapped. Ms. Zacharopoulou said, quote, "It has been abandoned, in line with our requirement for the respect of human rights."So first of all, I'd like to say congratulations to you both and to your teams at Survival for for getting this this victory and for doing the work you need to do in order to get there. And I'd like to [00:26:00] ask about the strategies that were employed in order to revoke French support for the park. You know, so many of these efforts and victories are either ignored in the context of the endless dilemmas or they're celebrated kind of superficially without considering the work it took to organize such campaigns.And so my question is, how has this campaign been organized by Survival International? Martin: Well, to give a bit of context the first time we heard about the French Development Agency planning on funding Kahuzi Biega, it was in the exact same time period as the publication of a report by Minority Rights Group International detailing brutal waves of violence in 2019 and until 2020 of appalling human rights abuses. So, atrocities that including murder, torture, rape [00:27:00] the burning alive of children, the burning of villages. So, we are, in this context, where we are reading the minority rights group report and understanding the scale of these waves of violence against the Batwa.And around the same period, we see that the French Development Agency has been a delegation, including the director, has been to the park and plans on funding it. So, of course we are appalled and and decide to write to the French Development Agency, but also to the to the ministry that has oversight.So, one of them is the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. And then we wait. And then we also got the support of a senator who also sent a letter and asked a question in Parliament to the government about their plan to fund this park in the context of these human rights violations.And so in July 2022, so last year, they decided to suspend temporarily the project. It was also in the context of an internal scandal because there was an expert[00:28:00] in the field and contracted by the French development agency to carry out a feasibility study. And he was basically saying around, and it can be heard in recordings saying that basically the study is just a formality and that the decision to fund the park has already been made.So there's both scandals. An internal scandal about the due diligence apparently being considered a formality on the field and the scandal of the very detailed report that had just gone out about the atrocities. So, that led to a temporary suspension. And they said that they would conclude the study and look into the abuses into social aspects.And then a year passed and we kept sending letters, of course, and doing some public campaigning about it on social media, et cetera. And then the senator asked again a question in July this year, and that's when we learned that the project was cancelled. So, of course, it's a victory, and it shows that sometimes the government actually does have the oversight[00:29:00] on the development agencies and takes the right decisions.But, of course, it's just the whole model still needs to be challenged and the park still has many international backers, even in the context of the atrocities that we that we know about. Chris: Mm. So the senator that asked about the status of the funding and found out that it was in fact scrapped, the scrapping of the funding was never made public until that point?Or there was never any press release saying so? Martin: No, they made it public, In the answer to the question, orally, in, in commission in Parliament. Chris: Mm. And would there be no way that the French public, for example, would be able to find out about this otherwise?Martin: I don't think so. And to be honest, I'm not even sure the decision had been taken before. I think they looked into it again because the senator asked a question again, but that's just speculation. Chris: And you spoke about writing letters, obviously to politicians and to the ministries [00:30:00] and also social media campaigns. Do you think there was more of an effect on the scrapping of the funding because of the public campaign, the social media campaign? Martin: Yeah, I think and that's basically the whole premise on which our campaigns are based is that an efficient mobilization of the public opinion will lead and the fact that the public cares and is informed will lead to a more efficient lobbying and advocacy of the governments and, and other government agencies. So yeah, I think one can't go without the other. And I don't know what would have happened if only the Senator had asked the questions or if only the Senator had asked a question or if we had only sent a letter and no public campaigning at all, or no press release, or no social media, I don't know. So I think, yeah, both go hand in hand.Chris: Mm hmm.So do you think that without the report from the Minority Rights Group, that the funding would have gone ahead, regardless of what was actually happening there? Martin: It's possible because we know that the funders were aware for years and [00:31:00] years of the human rights violations. And even before the waves of violence that are described in the report, we know that they were aware of that risk of violence at that time and of the human rights violation in the whole context of the militarized park.So, I think it could have very well gone ahead, because the other funders knew and kept funding it. And yeah, it's very important to get that kind of report with very detailed testimonies and information from the ground, and really documenting these atrocities. Otherwise, it's just business as usual.Chris: And the original proposal for the funding at least by the French government or the ministries involved, they were basically just promoting conservation in the way that it typically is. That's what the funding was for? Martin: Well, it's hard to know because they never published anything and actually, they never actually started funding it.It was just, just a project. Like I said, they went on a visit there and started making [00:32:00] promise to the local conservation agencies and to the local authorities. It's not clear to this day what exactly they were planning on funding, but it was clearly stated that there were planning on supporting the park itself, but I don't know for which kind of activities, but still, funding the same structure that that has been responsible for these abuses is still unacceptable.Chris: Mm hmm sounds "sketchy," as we say in English. And and so for our listeners, just a little bit of further context while France simply abandoned plans, the country had not yet made, or the government had not yet made, Germany continues to finance the park despite France's, however, subtle acknowledgment of human rights violations.And so, Linda, my question for you is, first of all, why is Germany funding a national park in the DRC to begin with? And, if you know, [00:33:00] how does that money get spent? Linda: Well, I guess the, the German interest in this park is pretty old, so the German government started funding the park already in the 80s.And there were some other projects even before that, supposedly. But it's considered to be a very, well, it obviously is a very long running project financed by the German government. And some local people call it the German park, because they assume that without the German funding, it wouldn't even exist. Like the kind of money that has been given over decades and the kind of things that have been funded, the infrastructure, the Congolese conservation authorities, the park rangers, you know, all the things that were funded basically crucial for the park to function. So yeah, it is a very German funded project. And also the German government has for very, a very long time looked at it as being a prestigious [00:34:00] project.You know, it was this great park, the gorillas, you already mentioned it, you know, and the Germans been funding it, which when you know a bit about German history, post World War II, there was a lot of interest in biodiversity and conservation funding because it was a good thing to do, which gave Germany a little bit of a different international picture than it had after the war.So there was a lot of interest in funding projects, and they were perceived as being fantastic, and they were shown to be these great projects that Germany is supporting internationally. And then, obviously, it isn't, but the German government has been very, very good at denying that there are these problems, and the role that it has had in facilitating these horrific human rights abuses. Mm. Chris: And how, if at all, has the German government responded to the [00:35:00] scrapping of the French funding? Linda: Very good timing, because I just got a response today, actually from the German government. Mm. 'cause we did point out to them that the French government has decided to not fund the park because of the violations of indigenous people's rights and because of human rights concerns. So we pointed this out to the ministry again, just in case, they would not have learned about this themselves. But the reply basically doesn't address this at all. You know, this was what we wrote the letter about and the replies about all the great things that the German government keeps funding and the improvements it is supposedly seeing on the ground and these improvements justifying their continued support.So it's just a letter explaining why they continue funding it and not addressing why maybe partners like the French government have decided not to fund it. And it's something that we have seen over the years. I think [00:36:00] survival first raised human rights violations in the Kahuzi Biega National Park in actually 2017, so that's quite a few years ago.There was a Batwa family. A father with his son, a teenage son. They were going into the park to collect herbs for medicine because another son of the family was sick. They encountered park rangers who killed the teenager and hurt wounded the father. So it was quite a terrible incident.And the father wrote to the German government, to the funders, and he complained about these human rights violations and the fact that the Batwa had lost access to the park and to their livelihood because of the German funding. The German government just said, "well, you know, there's not much we can do about it, basically."They tried to pay some money, but then really nothing, nothing else happened. And over the years, the situation hasn't improved. It has [00:37:00] gotten worse. But the German government keeps saying that they have faith in the Congolese conservation authorities and they do not see grounds to stop the funding or the project.They keep saying that they see progress. And things will get better. And we know it hasn't gone better. Chris: I'd like to return anyways to this this question around tactics and strategies and organizing. It seems that activists and those not directly involved in social movements struggle with the weight of our times.I mean, it's you know, kind of hard to ignore these days. And so, given that the German government, I imagine, is the obvious next target in the campaign to defund Kahuzi Biega, or at least the conservation authorities and programs there, what tactics, what strategies are being employed by Survival in your campaigns, [00:38:00] and how might our listeners in Germany, France, Europe, and, and beyond, how might they participate?Linda: That's a very good question, because, as I said, you know, Survival has been working on this for a few years, and there's a little bit of frustration, of course, that not much is happening in the terms of acknowledging the problem of funding this park. I think what Survival, what we're thinking is, quite important in this issue of conservation is making sure that donors in the West understand that this is a very symptomatic problem.So, a lot of conservation projects function like this and it is because there is this underlying problem with them, that they do not acknowledge land rights. But they continue to say that certain government authorities or certain conservation organizations are best put to run these places. It's the same with the [00:39:00] Kahuzi Biega National Park.The German government now says, "well, we know there are problems, so we pull in the WCS. They're the conservation organization and everything will be better. But it won't because they also have a record of not respecting indigenous people's rights. So, we need to make them understand that there is this underlying issue of not acknowledging indigenous people's land rights.And we try to do this by pointing out that this is a problem which is happening in a lot of national parks. So, protected areas that Survival has looked at in Africa and Asia, almost all of them, even the ones that we were told were good examples, have these problems. And we try to show that to the donors that have such big impact on these conservation projects and make them rethink what they're doing.It's a very difficult process, of course, because they've always done it in a different way. And now it's hard for them to think [00:40:00] about, you know, giving control and power to local people, which until now they've always said is a threat to conservation. It's like a total turn of what they assumed so far.But for us, it seems like that's the thing that we have to do for them to actually acknowledge the problem, because otherwise all the solutions that they come up with are not real solutions. They put people like the WCS in power, which is also not going to respect the Batwas' rights. Chris: Yeah, I think one of the critiques around development is in the context of these industries, especially things like conservation, volunteerism is another one that as industries, you would imagine that they would have in their mission statement, or vision, or ten-year plan, the slow and intentional disappearance of their own industry, right? Because if what they were [00:41:00] doing was working, we would need less of them. And there would be less of them, but here we are, right? And it's just, of course, a massively growing industry, both conservation and volunteerism. Martin: Yeah, it's true that our key targets are the donors, because like many of the issues that indigenous peoples are facing across the world, the root of the problem and the funding for these problems come from the West and our societies. So that's going to remain one of our targets and key part of the strategy. I think we are starting to see a shift in the discourse, in France, at least. And when we talk to the politicians, we also see that shift, that shift in the discourse of the conservation NGOs, but it's still as harmful. So instead of saying that these places are wild and empty and that the local artists are destroying it or encroaching, well, they still say it, but they also say that what we were saying before about the poverty issue and that [00:42:00] they will generate new projects and new activities and development basically.So, I think that they are starting to acknowledge the presence of these people. They couldn't be further from recognizing their land rights because, like you said, otherwise it means their own disappearance, and they're not built for that. Linda: Yeah, so it's a difficult, it's a difficult thing. I mean, I think we try to talk to people that are more inclined to understand the importance of indigenous people's rights so that we can have a base of people that support our campaigning, which is very important for us.And then we select our targets and try to engage the people that support us in convincing these targets to change projects or change their minds. And sometimes, you know, that can just be it a tweet that texts someone who we know makes decisions about certain [00:43:00] projects, try to raise awareness that there is concern about this project, that some people disagree, that this doesn't comply with human rights, that this doesn't comply with, agreements or treaties they're supporting for indigenous people's rights.And sometimes it's a more complex lobbying strategy. So there are different things we try to do and sometimes, like we saw with the example of the French government, sometimes it works because there's timing, there's different things coming together. But obviously, even though we have a lot of strategies, it's always difficult to know what will work in the end.So we try different things and try to engage with people that will help us spread the word about the need to decolonize conservation and do it differently and acknowledge land rights. And sometimes it's little things that really change a lot. Sometimes we work on something for a long time and it wasn't the right strategy and we need to change.[00:44:00] Chris: Well, speaking of how might our listeners find out more about Survival International and the decolonize conservation campaigns and especially around the work that you two are doing. Martin: Well, I strongly encourage people to read more of our campaigns on the website, on social media, also to subscribe to our newsletter, because that's where we mostly share our urgent actions.So which are one of our tools to put pressure on the targets. So, mass emails basically sent by our supporters to the targets about specific projects. And we also publish some video, direct video testimonies in our tribal voice projects, as we call it.So if they want to listen to, to the victims explaining the problems they are facing, but also the way of life that they have lost or sometimes more inspiring things about the resistance and and the fight. I think it's also very interesting to hear directly from the people affected.But yeah, I strongly encourage people to join the movement by [00:45:00] any means possible. And sometimes as Linda said, just small actions like a tweet or sending an email through these campaigns can be can really make an impact and and it does help ensure that the advocacy and the lobbying is effective.Linda: Yeah, and I think it's also a nice way to picture that you're showing solidarity with, for example, the Batwa, who often perceive the Western donors as being the cause of their problem. And I think for them, it's nice to see that there are also people in the countries that, where the problems originate that are standing up for their rights and supporting them.And I think it's probably the least we can do also, because we're so obsessed with African nature that I think it would be a very good step for us to think about the people that live in these places.Chris: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe not immediately or superficially in part because of the inundations and the dilemmas in our times, but that kind of [00:46:00] solidarity can begin to break down as well, the largely like unconscious nationalist tendencies we have when we think of other people in other countries, we always associate those people with their governments, right?Which is just like, absolutely ridiculous when anyone thinks of themselves in relation to their own government, right? But these are two faces, two voices of the resistance that are working on behalf of many others.And so I just wanted to reiterate that we're here today just to have the chance to be able to speak about a little bit about this this small victory that all willing will lead to many more to much bigger ones in regards to the Decolonize Conservation campaign of Survival International.It takes work and I'm grateful to be able to speak with you both today and to have you share some of your work and your dedication with our listeners and I will make sure that all of those links that you mentioned, Martin, will be on the End of Tourism website and available for our [00:47:00] listeners to sign up to the newsletter and follow on social media and of course participate if they so wish.Thank you both. Linda: Thanks. Martin: Thank you.​ Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode, my guest is , a friend and scholar who recently completed his PhD in Cultural Geography from The University of Edinburgh where his research centered on themes of displacement and memorial walking practices in the Highlands of Scotland. A child of Greek political refugees on both sides of his family, Christos' work looks at ways in which ceremony and ritual might afford us the capacity to integrate disconnection from place and ancestry. Further, his research into pre-modern Gaelic Highland culture reveals animistic relationship with mountains which disrupt easy definitions of colonialism and indigeneity.Show Notes:Summoning and Summiting a DoctorateThe British Empire & EverestThe Three Roots of FreedomHillwalkers and HomecomingThe Consequences of Staying and LeavingThe Romans Make a Desert and Call it PeaceFarming EmptinessLandscapes as MediumsRitualized Acts of WalkingHomework:Christos Galanis' Official WebsiteTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome, Christos, to the End of Tourism podcast. Christos: Thank you, Chris. Chris: Thank you for joining me today. Would you be willing to let us know where you're dialing in from today? Christos: Yeah, I'm calling in from home, which at the moment is Santa Fe, New Mexico in the United States. Yeah, I moved out here for my master's in 2010 and fell in love with it, and and then returned two years ago.So it's actually a place that does remind me of the Mediterranean and Greece, even though there's no water, but the kind of mountain desert. So there's a familiarity somehow in my body. Chris: Sounds beautiful. Well I'm delighted to speak with you today about your PhD dissertation entitled "A Mountain Threnody: Hill Walking and Homecoming in the Scottish Highlands." And I know you're working on the finishing touches of the dissertation, but I'd like to pronounce a dear congratulations on that huge feat. I imagine after a decade of research and [00:01:00] writing, that you can finally share this gift, at least for now, in this manner, in terms of our conversation together.Christos: Thank you. It was probably the hardest thing I've done in my life in terms of a project. Yeah. Nine years.Chris: And so, you and I met at Stephen Jenkinson's Orphan Wisdom School many years ago. But beyond that from what I understand that you were born and raised in Toronto and Scarborough to Greek immigrants, traveled often to see family in Greece and also traveled widely yourself, and of course now living in New Mexico for some time. I'm curious why focus on Scotland for your thesis? Christos: It was the last place I thought I would be going to. Didn't have a connection there. So I did my master's down here in Albuquerque at UNM and was actually doing a lot of work on the border with Mexico and kind of Southwest Spanish history.I actually thought I was going to go to UC San Diego, partly because of the weather and had some connections [00:02:00] there. And two things happened. One was that you have to write your GRE, whatever the standardized test is you need to do for grad school here in the US, you don't have to do in the UK. So that appealed to me.And it's also, there's no coursework in the UK. So you just, from day one, you're just doing your own research project. And then I wanted to actually work with what Was and probably still is my favorite academic writer is Tim Ingold, who was based in Aberdeen up in the north of Scotland and is kind of that thing where I was like, "well if I'm gonna do a PhD What if I just literally worked with like the most amazing academic I can imagine working with" and so I contacted him. He was open to meeting and possibly working together and so I was gonna fly to Scotland.I was actually spending the winter in Thailand at the time, so I was like, if I'm gonna go all the way to Scotland, maybe I should check out a couple more universities. So, I looked at St. Andrews, which is a little bit north of Edinburgh, and then Edinburgh, then visited all [00:03:00] three schools, and actually just really fell in love with Edinburgh, and then in the end got full funding from them. And that took me to Scotland. And I didn't know what was in store for me. I didn't even follow through on my original research project, which had nothing to do with Scotland. The sites that I was actually proposed to work with was on the Dine reservation out here in Arizona. There's a tradition, long tradition of sheep herding and there's a lot of, some friends of mine have a volunteer program where volunteers go and help the Diné elders and herd their sheep for them and what's happening is they're trying to hold on to their land and Peabody Coal, a coal mining company, has been trying to take the land forever and so by keeping on herding sheep, it allows them to stay there.So I was actually kind of looking at walking as forms of resistance and at that time, most undocumented migrants trying to enter Europe were walking from Turkey through Macedonia. So I was actually going to go there. And yeah, once I kind of hit the ground, I realized that that's way too ambitious.And I [00:04:00] decided to focus on this really strange phenomenon called Monroe Bagging in the Highlands of Scotland, where people work all week in their office, Monday to Friday, and then spend their weekends checking off a task list of 282 mountains that they summit. There's 282 of them and they're categorized that way because they're all over 3, 000 feet, which for us in North America, isn't that high, but for the Scottish Highlands, because they're very ancient, ancient, worn down mountains is pretty high.And also the weather and the climate and the terrain make it pretty treacherous out there. So it's, it's not an easy thing. Yeah. And I just thought this is a really weird, strange way to relate to mountains and to land. And it seems like a very British thing to do. And I kind of just got curious to figure out what was going on and why people would actually do this.And it came from a very, actually, critical perspective, to begin with. As things unfolded, that changed a fair amount in terms of getting to know people. But, yeah, that was Scotland. And, I think looking back, I think [00:05:00] I was called there by the mountains. I can give the bigger context maybe later on, but essentially one of the main mountain called Ben Cruachan, in Argyle that I ended up most working with and kind of going in and doing ceremony for, and with. I ended up later meeting my what would become my wife and married into her family and on one side of her family, they are literally the Macintyres who are from that mountain. So yeah ended up kind of going there and marrying into a lineage of a mountain that was the center of my my dissertation.So in the end I think I was called there. I think I was called to apprentice those mountains. And then I feel like my time ended. And I think this dissertation is kind of the story of that relationship with that courtship.Chris: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for that beautifully winding answer and introduction. So, you know, a lot of your dissertation speaks to kind of different notions of mountain climbing, summiting, hiking but you also write about [00:06:00] how our cultural or collective understandings of mountains have defined our ability to undertake these activities.And I'm curious, based on your research and personal experience, how do you think mountains are understood within the dominant paradigm of people who undertake these practices. Christos: Yeah, good question. I would say, I know I don't like to speak in universals, but I could say that one universal is that, as far as I can tell, all cultures around the world tend to not only revere mountains, but tend to relate to mountain peaks as sacred.And so in most cultures, at least pre modern culture, you will always find a taboo around ever actually climbing to the top of a mountain, especially a significant mountain. So ways that you might worship a sacred mountain, for example, you know, in Tibet is to circumnavigate. So hiking, walking around a mountain three times or walking the perimeter of a mountain, kind of circling [00:07:00] around and around the summit.But it would be absolutely abhorrent to actually ever climb to the top. So one thing I was interested in is what happened, what shifted, where in the past people would never think of climbing a mountain summit to that becoming almost the only thing that people were focused on. And I didn't know this, but out of all countries, the country that most intensely kind of pursued that practice was, was England, was Britain, actually.So it's really fascinating. There's this period, the Victorian era, where basically Britain is invading other countries such as Nepal, India, into China, into Kenya, parts of Africa, South America certainly here in North America and the Americas and of course mountain ranges serve as pretty natural and intense frontiers and barriers, especially back then before. You know, industrial machinery and airplanes and things [00:08:00] like that, you're going over land. And so to be able to get through a mountain range was a pretty intense thing. Really only became possible with kind of Victorian era technology and because they were able to penetrate these places that people really couldn't have before it was a way of kind of proving modern supremacy or the supremacy of kind of modern secularism.Because even in places like Sutherland and the Alps, the indigenous Swiss also considered like the Alps sacred, the mountain peaks and wouldn't climb them. And so as the British kind of came up into these mountain ranges. They had the idea of proving that essentially there were no gods on these mountaintops.There was nothing sacred about them. It's just a pile of rock and anybody can climb up and nothing's going to happen to them. And so they really started setting out to start summiting these mountains. And it was mostly military engineers. There's a big overlap between kind of military engineering and surveying and [00:09:00] map making and this kind of outdoor kind of Victorian kind of proving your manhood against nature kind of thing.And so it's a strangely poetic and very grief soaked proposition where increasingly humans had the technology to penetrate anywhere on the planet, you know, more and more. And maybe I'll just go into the story of Everest because it was perceived that the, the earth had three poles.So the North pole, the South pole, and Everest is the highest peak on the whole planet. So there was this race to set foot on the North Pole on the South Pole and on Everest. I don't know much about the North and South Pole expeditions I think they were first but Everest was kind of like yeah I think Everest was the last literally the last place on earth that humans weren't able yet to physically step foot on. And so the British set out to be the ones to do it after World War one. And there's another overlap where most of the men that were obsessed with mountain summiting after World War I had [00:10:00] been through the horrors of World War I and had a lot of PTSD and shell shock and kind of couldn't reintegrate back to civilian life.They kind of needed that rush of risking your life for some kind of larger goal, which warfare can provide. And, slowly they kind of got better technology and eventually by, I think it was maybe 1952, 1953, they finally conquered Everest. And it's almost like the moment that they penetrated this last place of wilderness that was holding out the British Empire started collapsing, which the timing is quite fascinating. You know, they lost India and Pakistan. And as soon as you kind of are able to dominate everything, there comes this nostalgia immediately for wild places. And this is where Scotland comes back in. Where, Scotland, the Highlands have been inhabited for tens of thousands of years.There's nothing wild about them. There were villages everywhere. But what happened through the [00:11:00] 16, 1700s was the Gaelic population, the indigenous population were ethnically cleansed. And then kind of the lands that follow for maybe 100 years. And then when the English started coming in, they were like, "Oh, this is wilderness.These mountains have never been climbed before. We're going to be the ones to conquer them because we're the superior race." And they did so, and when I chose the the title of my thesis used this little known word, Threnody, which is actually from Greek, Threnodia, which translates something as like a song of grief or a song of lament.And I think for me, this incessant kind of like summiting of mountains and risking and sometimes losing your life to penetrate these places where you actually don't retain control, or it's very hard to retain control, right, because of like storms in the weather, that it's almost like a kind of mourning for the loss of the very things that this technology has kind of erased or has compromised.So it's almost, I can't even put into words the feeling around it, but it's almost like, [00:12:00] You're doing the thing that's destroying something, but you have the impulse to keep doing it as a way of connecting to the thing that's being lost, if that makes sense. And I can imagine, you know, maybe all the work that you've done around tourism might have a similar quality to it.There's, I don't know, there's like a melancholy that I experience interviewing and going out with these people that I don't think they would ever be conscious of or even name, but there's a longing for something that's missing. And so that's where also this kind of song of lament theme comes into my, into my dissertation.Chris: Yeah, it's definitely something that shows up over and over again in these conversations and thank you for putting it into such eloquent words is that. I think it really succinctly speaks to the, the condition or conditions at hand. And I guess I'm curious you know, in regards to what you just said about notions of freedom [00:13:00] that are often experienced in touristic experiences or contexts and some of your dissertation centers around the freedom that your friends and hill walking acquaintances experienced there in the Highlands and freedom can often seem like a kind of recurrent trope sometimes in describing the tourist's reasons for travel.And surely outside of a trope for many people's reasons for travel you know, especially in the context of migration. Beyond the surface, we can wonder about the inheritance of ancestrally or ancestral indentured servitude, the commons and the lack thereof in our time and also like a kind of communion or relationship with what you refer to as other than human worlds. And I'm curious what kind of contradictions or insights came up for you in regards to the supposed freedom that was either found or sought after by the Hillwalkers you encountered.[00:14:00] Christos: Thank you. Yeah, I think before I started going deep into this, I probably, I probably shared most people's notion of freedom, which most of us don't ever really sit and wonder that deeply about.But there's a section of my dissertation where I go deep into freedom and I actually look at three different cultural and kind of etymological or linguistic lenses through which to understand freedom. And there's two that the people I interviewed, I think, were most practicing. So the word freedom itself comes from the Germanic, and it's two words.It's broke frei, which is "free," "to be free." And dom, translates kind of as "a judgment." So if you know like doomsday or the doomsday book. What the doomsday and judgment day actually mean the same thing It's just doom is like the older Germanic word for judgment. Okay, and so freedom can kind of translate as like freedom from judgment freedom from constraint and it has this quality of like spatially removing [00:15:00] yourself or getting distance from something that might constrain you, so you mentioned indentured servitude and slavery, which are as old as human civilization across the world.And all these different things that, basically, we are more or less constrained by, whether it's, family, the state, our living conditions, poverty, excess wealth, you know, all these things that might, or the expression of our true life force. And so for a lot of the people that I was working with, that was certainly what they would describe, you know, like I work in an office as a manager Monday through Friday in Edinburgh, and then it's only on the weekends that I get out into the hills and I truly feel alive and free, right? Because I'm in this vast expanse and, I mean, It's not my climate. I'm Greek by both sides. Wet, soggy moss and mold and endless rain and drizzle and cold and dark is not my thing, but it is visually stunningly beautiful. And you know, [00:16:00] and I'm sure we all know the experience of getting up to a peak of something and that sense of kind of almost being removed from the everyday and that sense of like maybe connecting to something higher or bigger.So that sense of freedom is obvious. The other, another lens is through Latin liberty or libertas, which comes from ancient Roman society, which was a heavily hierarchied society where up to 60 percent of people were actually slaves. So, there's a big distinction between those who are free and those who are slaves.And so the idea of liberty, and this also came up with my informants is the idea that you have to compare yourself to another and the more freedom you have compared to someone else, the better it feels. And I think of that as all the mechanics of like air airports and you know, first class lines and first class seating.I had the experience once flying because flying from New York through back to [00:17:00] London to get back to Edinburgh. And for the first and only time in my life I was bumped up to first class for some reason, I don't know why. But it was on, I don't know, one of the newer kind of jumbo jets, and the difference between economy class and first class in many ways is pretty profound.At the same time, it's ridiculous because you're all sitting in the same tube. But I remember the feeling that happened once we took off and they drew the curtain between the first class and everyone in the back. And it was this experience where everyone back there just disappeared.It's just kind of like, you can't see them, they're out of sight, out of mind, and you're just up front. You can lay down completely horizontally in these chairs, you have real glass, glassware and real cutlery, you know, and people treat you super, super nice. But like, in order to enjoy that, you need other people to not be enjoying that, right?So the idea of liberty kind of requires another, or it's almost a zero sum game where someone else has to be losing for you to be winning. And you know, I think of that with tourism, the idea that those of us from the North, you know, are stuck [00:18:00] at home in the winter while those with money, you know, can fly off to Mexico or Costa Rica and stuff like that.So that difference that like your experience is enhanced by other people's discomfort or suffering. And then I came across another lens, which comes from the Greek. So the Greek word for freedom is Eleftheria. And I didn't know the etymology, but one of my office mates in Edinburgh was from Greece, and we sat down with like a Greek etymological dictionary and I discovered that the Greek notion of freedom is completely different.It's almost counterintuitive, and it translates as something close to " loving the thing you were meant to love" or like "being the thing you were meant to be." And even more distinctly, the rios part in Eleftheria would translate into something like "returning to your home harbor after like a long voyage," and it's that, it's literally the experience of coming home, [00:19:00] which in a way is the freedom of not wanting to be anywhere else or to be anyone else, which is in some ways, I think to me, the most true freedom, because you don't want for anything, you actually love everything you are and everywhere you are, and you don't want to go anywhere else.So in that way, I think for me, cultivating a connection to place as an animist, you know, and I think that's a lot of what you and I I imagine experienced, you know, listening to Steven Jenkinson's many stories that keep circling around this idea of, you know, belonging is cultivating that place in you or that muscle in you that doesn't want to be anywhere else, doesn't want to be anybody else, but is actually satisfied and fulfilled by what is, which it's probably at the heart of most spiritual traditions at the end of the day, but to think of that as freedom, I think for me, really, really changed my perspective from, the idea of going around the world as I have and certainly in the past to experience all these different things and to [00:20:00] feel free and to be a nomad versus I would say the freedom I have here of loving Santa Fe and not imagining myself being anywhere else right now.Chris: Well, the theme of homecoming is definitely woven into this work, this dissertation, alongside hill walking.They seem, generally speaking, superficially very disparate or distinct activities, homecoming and hill walking. One is going and then it's coming. And I'm curious if you could elaborate for our listeners a little bit of what those terms mean, and where or how they come together in your work.Christos: Yeah. So the title of my dissertation, you know, is a "A Mountain Threnody: Hillwalkers and Homecomers in the Highlands of Scotland."So I set out to study hill walkers, which is basically a British term for going out for a walk or a hike where the focus is summiting some kind of peak, you know, whether a hill or a mountain, but that's what most people do there. When you set out on a walk, it's just assumed that you're going to end up going to the top of something and then [00:21:00] back down.What ended up happening is actually through Stephen Jenkinson's Orphan Wisdom School, I met several other Canadians of Scottish descent who had already or were planning on going quote "back" to Scotland to connect with their ancestral lands and their ancestors which is a lot of the work with Stephen's school and that, you know, that idea of connecting with your ancestry and with your roots and with your bones.And I kind of just started following along and interviewing people and talking with people that became friends just out of curiosity, because, you know, that's a lot of my background with being first generation Canadian and growing up in a huge Greek diaspora in Toronto and speaking Greek and going back to Greece multiple times and this idea of kind of being Canadian, but really home is in Europe and Greece, even though I've never lived there.So, there's a lot there, personal interest and eventually against my supervisor's advice, I was like, this might be an interesting [00:22:00] conversation to put these two groups together, these people who are spending their weekends summiting mountains in the Highlands and then these other people coming from Canada and the US and New Zealand and Australia who are going to the same mountains to connect with their ancestral, you know, lands and and people. And these two groups are probably the two biggest sources of tourism, like, in the Highlands, which is fascinating. Wow. Except that the one group, the Hillwalkers tend to imagine that they're in a pristine wilderness and that there's never been anybody there. And the homecomers like to imagine that the hills used to be covered in villages and their own people that were there for thousands of years and that they're reconnecting.So it's interesting how the same landscape is both imagined as being repopulated and also emptied. And that both groups are kind of searching again for this kind of belonging, right? This belonging through freedom, for this belonging through ancestry. The other piece that gets, [00:23:00] well, you know, we're interviewing this, we're doing this interview November 21st and we're, I think most people these days are pretty aware of what's going on in Israel and Palestine and this idea of home because to have a homecoming means there has to be somewhere out there that you consider your home.And that's such a loaded, loaded, loaded concept, right? Like many wars are fought over this idea of who a land belongs to, right? I mean, I know you and I have talked about both our families being from the borderlands with Greece, Macedonia, Albania, and those borders just change over and over and where you belong to what is home keeps changing depending on which war has happened, which outcome and things like that.And I think for those of us, I'll say in the Americas, who don't have deep roots here this idea of home being somewhere else other than where you live, is a very complex prospect because certainly when I go to Greece, people don't recognize me as being home, you know, they, they consider me a Canadian tourist. And at the same time growing up in Canada, I certainly never felt [00:24:00] like, "Oh, Canada is like my ancestral home. You know, it's, it's skin deep. My parents came over in the sixties. Right." So this idea of homecoming and, you know, maybe we can just riff on this for a bit. Cause I know you've explored this a lot. It's like, is it tourism or is it something else? Because a lot of people in Scotland, including people I interviewed, just laugh at these Canadians who come over and just start crying, standing over some rocks in the Highlands and who will buy some shitty whiskey at a tourist shop and feel that they're connecting with their roots and buy bagpipes and by kilts and all this stuff, whereas like most Scottish people don't wear kilts and don't blow bagpipes and don't necessarily drink whiskey all day, so there's these kind of stereotypes that have often been just kind of produced by the media, but it's almost like, other than that, how do people actually connect with the homeland, right?Like, what does it even mean to connect with a homeland? And one thing that I found that I think is one of the most powerful things is the idea of walking. So [00:25:00] this is why the comparison and the contrast with hill walking and homecoming is most people, when you go back to your homeland, there's something really central about walking in the footsteps of your ancestors, right?So walking around in the same village, walking the same streets, going to the same house, maybe even if it's not there anymore, going to... I remember going to my mom's elementary school in the little village that she grew up in the mountains of Greece and walking down the same hallways with her, and we went to the auditorium, and she, showed me the little stage where she would literally be putting on little plays when they were, like, in third grade and there's something about standing and stepping in the same place that is so fundamental. And so I'm kind of looking at homecoming through these kind of memorial or commemorative practices of walking. So it's not just walking, but walking and activating a landscape or activating the memories that are kind of enfolded in a landscape. And I've come to believe and understand that walking is a kind of almost magic technology that I [00:26:00] almost see it as really like opening up portals to other times and other places when done in a ceremonial kind of ritualized manner.So a lot of my work again, as an animist and kind of being as far as I know, the first in my field was just cultural geography, to kind of bring an animist lens to the field and kind of look at how, doing ceremony on a mountain, going into these glands and doing ceremony is more than just the material kind of walking, but is actually kind of connecting with these memories and these people in these places.In a way that's, I think, deeper than tourism and that's maybe the distinction between tourism and let's say homecoming on the surface that you might actually be doing almost the same thing, but I think there is this kind of animist lens to understand homecoming through where you let's say you bring a stone from home or you take a stone and bring it back home you know, like these kinds of Ritualize little practices that we do to connect with the place that I don't think tourists do in the same way, [00:27:00] you know?Because in tourism, you're often just trying to get away from where you live and experience something different, where this is trying to reconnect with something that's been lost or something that's in the past. Chris: Yeah, definitely. This leads me into a lot of different directions, but one of them is this question of animism that I'd like to come back to in just a moment but before we do, I want to ask you about. These heritage trips sometimes they're referred to as within the tourism industry, homeland returns which in most cases is a paradox or an oxymoron because most people are not returning to the places that they either were born in or lived in.They, typically, like myself, had never actually been there before. I'll just pull a little quote from your dissertation because I think it precedes this question in a good way. You write that quote, "the commissioner of Sutherland advocated for a state administered program of colonization in the Scottish Highlands, similarly arguing that the [00:28:00] Gaelic race and its inferior temperament presented an obstacle to the onward march of civilization. Locke set out a vision for the colonization, displacement, and reeducation of Gaelic Highlanders, where eventually, quote, 'the children of those removed from the hills will lose all recollection of the habits and customs of their fathers.'Locke's vision has broadly come true," end quote. And so, within the context of the wider spectrum and calendars and geographies that we've kind of been discussing, but more specifically in the context of Scotland, I'm curious if the people that you met there, either locals or visitors and especially in the case of those coming for a homecoming or heritage trip had an understanding of these things, of this history.Christos: No, that's what I found out. [00:29:00] What I've found in my lifetime, cause this isn't the only kind of project around this kind of theme that I've done. Maybe we'll get, I did another project with Mexican friends going back to Spain and kind of repatriating or reconnecting back through the kind of the displacement of the Spanish civil war.But what I've found is those of us of the colonies, that's kind of what I consider myself in ourselves, like people of the colonies. I'm not sure if it's better or worse that we're the ones that hold on to the stories and the memories and the people back quote "home" or in the "homeland" for the large part have moved on and don't really give much thought to these histories of displacement.It's almost, oh my God, it was strange to be in this country where most of the place names in the Highlands are Gaelic, and 98 percent of Scottish citizens cannot read or understand Gaelic, so partly it was this strangeness of being in a country where only two out of every hundred people could even understand the names of the places where they lived, even [00:30:00] though they had never left there and their people had never left there.And you know, if you let that sink in, it's like, let's say you and I being of Greek descent, imagine if 90 percent of Greeks couldn't understand Greek, you know what I mean? And couldn't understand the name of their own village. And well, there's, here's another angle to this in Scotland.When you want to learn traditional Gaelic fiddle, you go to Cape Breton in Nova Scotia in Canada because that's where the Highlanders who immigrated to Nova Scotia in the past kept the tradition pure and kept fiddle playing what it had always been. Whereas, you know in Scotland now, they're into hip hop and trap and drum and bass and stuff like this.And so if you're Scottish and you've never left Scotland in order to connect with the music of your ancestors you have to go to Canada, so most people that I interviewed and I think this is fair, you know to assume of most people Don't [00:31:00] think much about the ethnic cleansing that went on whichever side that they were on And it's kind of left to us in the colonies either to also let it go and move on and try to settle into these new lands or you kind of keep holding on to this memory of a place you've actually never lived, you know, and it's almost like both propositions are grief soaked.Both are kind of almost an impossible poem to hold because obviously there were people here before our European ancestors came. Obviously, we don't have these deep roots or memories or connections to this place. We don't have ceremonies or songs or much that's derived from this land, at least not yet.And yet many of us lose the language and the ceremonies and the traditions of the places where our ancestors came. It's almost like at least we still know where we've come from. Whereas to be in Europe, or at least in Scotland, and to have never left, but to nevertheless have also lost the connection with [00:32:00] your own ancestors and your own language and those places it's almost like a parallel process where there are people that get on the boats and leave, but there are people that are left behind. But it's almost like, regardless whether you leave or whether you stay, the fabric of that culture just gets completely rendered and torn apart by that displacement. And somehow, even though you never leave having so many of your people leave actually kind of compromises the ability to stay where you are, and to be connected to where you are. ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a subscriber!I interviewed one woman who had an ancestor who in Scotland, they call like psychic abilities, the second sight.So the idea of having kind of psychic premonitions or all of a sudden knowing that like your brother has died, even though he's in Australia, you know, that kind of thing. That people had that when I lived in Scotland and when they moved to Canada, they actually lost that ability. You know, so it's this idea that it's not that you carry almost these knowledges or abilities just in you, but it's actually comes from the connection [00:33:00] to the place.And once that connection becomes severed, you lose those capacities. And I've actually never said this out loud, but I wonder how much the people that stayed behind actually lost because of all the people that left, if that made sense. It's almost like, how does a culture stay resilient when almost everyone between the ages of like 20 and 40 leaves and never comes back.I think you could consider that this is all just stuff to wonder about. But like, for those of us that come from these kind of like largely settler countries like Canada and the U. S, we're still living through these questions. We're still living through these implications of like, how long do you hold on to the past? And at what point do you just kind of let go and move forward? And If you do so, how do you move forward in a place that you don't have any roots?Chris: You know. I remember going to see, going to my father's village in northern Greece for the first time some eight years ago, and knowing that I had [00:34:00] one baba or grandmother left there, and after searching for a few hours, she was hard of hearing at the time, finally found her, finally found the house and shared a delicious meal and traded photographs.I had no Greek or Macedonian language ability at the time. And then I was I called a taxi later on some, you know, at the end of the day to go back to the city, to the hotel, and standing in her garden there, she began to weep, right, without having said anything, even with the language barrier, I could understand what she was saying, and she was, she was mourning the migration of my family or my side of the family, or my father's side of the family to Canada, and then, her son and his family to Germany.And so, there's this question of what comes upon the people that quote unquote "stay." that's so often lost in the discourses [00:35:00] around migration, kind of always focusing on the individual, the migrant themselves, or the places that they arrive in.But do we just let it go? And how do we do that? I have this other quote from your dissertation that lands really strangely in this moment, in this conversation and it has to do a little bit with the kind of what I think you refer to as a national geographic imaginary.And so this is the response of the people in Scotland, in the Highlands embedded and engaged and indebted to these hill walking and homecoming industries. And so in your dissertation, it's written that "in February of 2017, an uproar on all sides erupted when, in a rare sign of bipartisan solidarity, both Mountaineering Scotland and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association attempted to pressure the Scottish government to abandon a [00:36:00] proposal to increase woodland cover, trees, from 17 percent to 25%. by 2050. The commitment to plant 10, 000 extra hectares of trees between now and 2022 was made in the government's draft climate plan. The protesting organizations argued that there had not been enough consultation and consideration given to the changes to the highland landscape that would come about by this tree planting initiative.And they were voicing their concern on whether, quote, 'adequate weight is being given to the significant changes this will have on the landscape of Scotland, and in particular, the dramatic open views and vistas which have come to signify to the outside world that which is unique about our country.'" End quote.And so this seems to be, to some degree, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but a manner of contending [00:37:00] with that past in a way that is, you know, perhaps ignorant of it. Or that is perhaps also faithfully serving the needs, the economic needs of the people, of the place.Christos: There's a lot there. I'm, what's coming to me, do you know this quote? It's from ancient Rome. It's a bit convoluted, but this is a Roman text talking about the colonization of Britain, so of the Romans conquering the Gaelic people in the Picts, but it's In a speech written by this Roman historian that he's attributing to like the Gaelic king, basically. So it's not, this wasn't actually said by a Gaelic king, it's just a Roman kind of putting these words in his mouth to kind of create like a battle scene, but but a lot of people quote this and it's from the Gaelic perspective referring to the Romans saying "the Romans make a desert and call it peace."[00:38:00] And that's kind of what's happened in Scotland is the villages were cleansed, literally. You know, the houses were burned down and knocked down. The people were forcibly, sometimes violently, thrown out of their homes into the cold. Many of them just had no prospects to be able to stay and move to Glasgow.And many of them, you know, came to Toronto and Saskatchewan and North Carolina and all this. And so after they left, these highlands kind of became empty, like this vast emptiness. And then once the Victorian English came into that landscape and started painting it and writing Victorian poems about it, this aesthetic of this, treeless, vast expanse became kind of that National Geographic kind of aesthetic of the mountain peak and the colorful heather and then the loch or the lake, kind of [00:39:00] reflecting the mountain.You can just imagine the scene, right? Of like the mountain peak being reflected in inverse in the lake, you know, kind of thing. It's just that perfect kind of symmetrical perspective photograph or painting. And then that kind of became the symbol of freedom and tranquility which is basically like a site of ethnic cleansing becomes a symbol of beauty.And then what happens is you keep managing the landscape to maintain that aesthetic, which is why you find the strangeness of, like, environmental groups arguing that planting trees is ecological vandalism, that you're ruining the ecology of a place because your trees are gonna get away in the way of these vast expanses.So it's it's this weird wondering on, like, how certain aesthetics become symbolic of something. And then you manage the land, to maintain that aesthetic. Even though it's [00:40:00] absolute death for the wild, the wildlife and even the people in that landscape, to maintain it in that way. The thing that might not be obvious to most people which wasn't I didn't know about this whole world before I moved there, but Scotland's one of the few if not only place in all of Europe where you can still be a feudal lord like they call it a laird, l-a-i-r-d, but it's like a lord where all you need to do to be a lord is you just buy land and if you have enough land you're you claim title of Lord Wow.And most people that are lords in Scotland these days are not even British. You have people from Saudi Arabia, from all over that have bought up the highlands in many ways. And they have these estates and you know, Balmoral estate, which is like the Queens, or I guess she's dead now. Now it's King Charles's estate.And what you do is maybe once a year you and all your rich friends from all over the world fly in [00:41:00] and do this traditional game hunt where you might be hunting deer, but more often you're actually hunting wild birds. You know, so grouse especially. If anyone's seen, I find it fascinating watching Downton Abbey, that TV series, because it's kind of, it covers a lot of the kind of that, that time in Britain.And there's an episode or two where they go into the Scottish countryside to go, you know, go hunting. So it's this weird aesthetic where you dress up in a certain way, kind of like an old time Scottish lord, and you go out on the land with dogs and you shoot down birds, and in order for the birds to live there you need the landscape to basically be wide open, because that's actually what they prefer.And so, this is why, again, for the context of that quote, you have an environmental group, and basically, rich, elite gamekeepers working together to keep the government from planting trees in this landscape because it's in both their interest to maintain [00:42:00] this landscape as an ecological wasteland, essentially that people can't sustain themselves off of or people can't live in So you're kind of farming emptiness if that makes sense in a way you're like cultivating emptiness. Yeah. For tourism. Which again I mean, you've been talking to so many people about this subject. To me, it's fascinating what tourism can be or what it can mean, you know, or like what need is trying to be fulfilled in these, in these landscapes that often get kind of territorialized as touristic, you know, because most people, when they travel, they don't go to walk around the suburbs of a city. There's only certain places that tourists are drawn to, right? Hmm. And so I'm always curious about why and what tourists are drawn to, you know, what is like almost like the resource there that is being extracted. In Chris: the context of your work, you know, largely in regards to, to landscapes and we've spoken a fair amount today about [00:43:00] landscapes as, as objects at the very least.But in, in your dissertation, you know, there was a line that struck me certainly I think coming from your animist tendencies and sentiments where you say that "landscapes are mediums and landscapes are a process," and I'm curious, as we kind of wind ourselves towards the end of our time together, if you could elaborate on this for our listeners a little bit, this, this idea of landscapes as mediums or as processes.Christos: Yeah, so I've done my, my PhD in the field of cultural geography, or sometimes called human geography, which is kind of like anthropology except kind of rooted in place, I'd say that's the big difference. It's not as popular here in North America, but in the UK it's much more popular. And probably the primary focus in that field is landscape, which I think most people might be familiar with that term in terms of like, maybe landscape [00:44:00] gardening or landscape painting.But when you get deep into it, which is kind of what grad school is, is you're like a big weirdo and you just get so deep into something so friggin specific that, you know, most people think you might think about once in your lifetime, but you end up spending nine years thinking about and writing about.It's almost like you can't perceive a place without some kind of filter, if that makes sense. It's almost like there's no such thing as just like a place or land that's just objectively out there. Like, I spent most of a winter, you know, down where you are in Oaxaca, but you having lived there for this long, like if you and I walk around in the streets of Ciudad Oaxaca, you're going to perceive so much more than I am, or at least many different things than I am, right?I'm going to be purely a tourist, I'm going to be reading on a surface level where you might have dozens of memories come up from your time living there and different things that have happened. And [00:45:00] so, in that way, like a landscape is almost, is always like a medium, meaning like our own perceptions, our own projections, our own memories are always affecting the way that we perceive a place.And so cultural geography, the field that I'm in, kind of looks at that. It looks, literally at the kind of the, the collision of culture and geography and like the politics of a place. You know, I was talking about like earlier about landscape management. You know, there are people that are choosing how to manage the landscape in the highlands, where to allocate money and where to cut money from.And all of those decisions are based on preferences of aesthetics and land use, in terms of landscape. So for anyone that's interested, it's a fascinating field to start looking at what we perceive in a place or in places [00:46:00] and how, what we perceive or what we wish to be there affects, you know, the politics of a place.And again, the contemporary crisis right now, Israel Palestine, this question of like, who belongs there? Whose land is it? What do you see in that landscape? For some people, they see an ancient Jewish homeland that these persecuted people are trying to return to and reclaim and for other people, they see, you know, an indigenous Arab people that are being displaced by outside colonizers and, you know, both in their way are right and wrong.I'm not going to wade into the politics of it, but the way that landscape is used as a medium, politically, economically, culturally, is a really fascinating subject, at least for me.Chris: Well, thank you for that, and to finish up with a question around pilgrimage, which Jerusalem being the quote unquote, "holy land" and where so many pilgrimages landed in in previous times and of course in contemporary ones as [00:47:00] well. I'm curious about what you could describe as ritualized memorial acts of walking. And I'd like to finish by asking what have been the most achieved and enduring acts of ritual that you've encountered? What lessons might they have to teach us in a time of hypermobility?Christos: Again, that's like a huge question. Okay, I'll try to be succinct if I can. I don't know why I'm drawn to these kinds of histories, but anywhere I go in the world, I tend to be drawn to, yeah, histories of displacement, I would say.It's a strange thing to be interested in for most people, but it probably speaks to the fact that I am the fourth generation of men to leave the country that I was born. You know, that's between both sides of the family, it's not all one lineage. But being of Greek descent, Greece has long been a country where people leave, you know?Like, right now, the [00:48:00] United States is a country where people come to, but to be claimed by a place where for hundreds of years now, so many people, whether by choice or circumstance, leave their home probably does something to you, you know? And so Anywhere I've traveled in the world, I tend to either seek out or be sought out by these kinds of histories, and so I referred a bit earlier to this project I did years ago where I was spending a lot of time in Mexico and ended up meeting what became a friend is an artist from Mexico City, Javier Arellán, and he was second generation Mexican.His grandfather was from Barcelona in Spain and was a fighter pilot for the Spanish Republic, so like the legitimate democratically elected government of Spain. And when Franco and the fascists kind of staged a coup and the Spanish Civil War broke out you know, he was on the side [00:49:00] of the government, the Republican army.And Barcelona was basically the last stand of the Republicans as the fascist kind of came up from the from the south and when Barcelona fell everyone that could literally just fled on foot to try to cross into France, nearby to try to escape, because knowing that if they were captured they would be imprisoned or killed by the fascists who had basically taken over the country now.But the French didn't want tens of thousands of socialists pouring into their country because they were right wing. And so rather than letting people escape they actually put all the Spanish refugees in concentration camps on the French border. And that's where my friend's grandfather was interred for like six months in a place called Argilet sur Mer, just over the French border.And then from there, Algeria took a bunch of refugees and he was sent to Algeria. And then from there, the only countries in the whole world that would [00:50:00] accept these left wing Spanish refugees was Mexico and Russia. And so about 50, 000 Spanish Republican refugees relocated to Mexico City. They had a huge influence on Mexican culture.They started UNAM, like the national university in Mexico City. And my friend Javier Grew up in Mexico city, going to a Spanish Republican elementary school, singing the Spanish Republican National Anthem and considering themselves Spaniards, you know, who happened to be living in Mexico. And so when I met him, with my interests, we, you know, overlapped and I found out that him and his wife were soon setting out to go back to that same beach in France where his grandfather was interred, in the concentration camp and then to walk from there back to Barcelona because his grandfather had died in Mexico before Franco died, so he never got to return home. You know, maybe like a lot of Greeks that left and [00:51:00] never did get to go back home, certainly never moved back home.And so we went to France and we started on this beach, which is a really kind of trashy touristy kind of beach, today. And we thought you know, that's what it is today, but we then found out talking to people that that's actually what it was back in the 1930s, 1940s was this touristy beach and what the French did was literally put a fence around and put these refugees on the beach in the middle of like a tourism beach literally as prisoners while people on the fence were like swimming and eating ice cream and, you know, and being on vacation.So even that site itself is pretty fucked up. A lot of people died there on that beach. And it was 15 days walking the entire coast from the French border back to Barcelona. And whereas Javier's community in Mexico city actually raised [00:52:00] funds for us and we're really excited about this idea of homecoming and going back home to Spain.We quickly discovered when we started talking to locals about what we were doing, they would stop talking to us and walk away and they didn't want anything to do with us. They did not want to know these histories. They didn't want to touch it. And what we found out is like Spain has never really dealt with this history.And it's such a trauma and nobody wants to talk about it. So again, it's this strange thing where it's like us from the Americas, you know, my friend from Mexico was wanting to return home and it was a strange trip for him because he thought of himself as a Spaniard returning home and these Spaniards were like, "you're a Mexican tourist and I don't want to talk to you about the civil war, you know?"And I think that really hurt him in a lot of ways because he almost kept trying to prove that he wasn't a tourist, whereas for me, I knew that I was a tourist because, you know, I have no history there.[00:53:00] In terms of pilgrimage, I've done other pilgrimages, other walks I won't get into now, but there's something about walking a landscape or walking a land as opposed to driving, obviously, or flying that the pace of walking, I think, allows you to interact with people and with places at a rhythm that is maybe more organic, maybe more holistic. I did do the Camino de Santiago, the pilgrimage in Spain, like I did that another 15 days as well. And for me there's nothing like walking. You know, there's, there's something that happens. To your mind, to your body, to your spirit when you're moving that I've never experienced through any kind of other travel.And unfortunately there are only so many places in the world where you can walk for days or weeks on end that have the infrastructure set up to do so. And I know that here in the Americas other than walking on busy roads, it's pretty hard to get long distances through walking.And so I think another thing that tourism has done is kind of cut off the transitional kind of walking and you just kind of fly off and just kind of plop yourself [00:54:00] down and then get extracted out through an airplane, but you don't have the experience of seeing the landscape change day by day, footstep by footstep, and experiencing the place at that speed, at that pace, which is, you know, a very slow pace compared to an airplane, obviously.Chris: Mm hmm. Perhaps, perhaps very needed in our time. Christos: I hope so. I think there's something about it. I think there's something humanizing about it. About walking. Chris: Well, I've asked a lot of you today, my friend. And we've managed to court and conjure all of the questions that I've, that I had prepared for you.Which I thought was impossible. So, on behalf of our listeners and perhaps all those who might come to this in some way, your dissertation at some point down the road, I'd like to thank you for your time and certainly your dedication.And I imagine a PhD, nine year PhD [00:55:00] research process can be extremely grueling. That said, I imagine it's not the only thing that you have on your plate. I know that you're also an artist a teacher, writer, and Kairotic facilitator. I'm saying that right. To finish off, maybe you'd be willing to share a little bit of what that entails and how our listeners might be able to get in touch and follow your work.Christos: Yeah, first I'll just say thanks for reaching out, Chris, and inviting me to do this. I've listened to your podcast and love these kinds of conversations around these topics of place and belonging. It's obviously deep in my heart and I said this to you earlier, other than my supervisors and my examiners, I think you're the first person to read my dissertation, so I appreciate that you took the time to read it and to draw quotes and to discuss it with me because, I think most people that have done a PhD know that it can be a pretty solitary process to go so deep into such a tiny little corner of like knowledge that for most people is not what they're interested in every day and to [00:56:00] share these stories. Thank you. So yeah, my website is ChristosGolanis. com. And part of what I do is working with this Greek term, kairos. So in Greek there are at least three words for time. One is chronos, which is like linear time. One is aeon, which is like kind of eternal time.And one is kairos, gets translated as kairos, which is like almost the appropriate time or ceremonial time. And my best definition of that is you know, there are some things that are scheduled, like you and I for months ago planned this particular time and this particular day to do this interview.But deciding, let's say, when to get married with your partner doesn't follow any kind of rational, linear timeline. That's more of a feeling. And so the feeling of like when some, when it's appropriate for something is what Greeks consider to be keros, like, you know, keros for something like it's, it's the appropriate time for something.So. What I do is I kind of counsel people to craft [00:57:00] ceremonies or rituals for big transitions in their lives to mark things in their life through ritual or ceremony. Like I said, for like a homecoming two weeks of walking the coast of Spain can be a ceremony, right, of kind of walking your dead grandfather back home. I think there's something about the impulse to go out into the world, to find something, to integrate something, to process something, right versus staying right where you are and kind of with community, with others. It's kind of ritually marking it, integrating it, and you know, it's cheaper, it's easier on the environment, and sometimes can, can go a lot deeper than going away and coming back, and maybe not much has changed.But it can be dealing with the transition of someone from life into death or a birth or a career change. And so basically using ceremony and ritual to really mark and integrate these significant moments in our lives so that we can be fully with them as they're happening or as they've happened in the past, but haven't been able to be integrated.So that's some of the kind of [00:58:00] work that people can do with me if you want to reach out through my website. Chris: Well I very much look forward to seeing and hearing your dissertation in the world outside of these small groups of podcast interviewers and academics. So, hopefully one day that's the case if there's any editors or publishers out there who enjoyed what you heard today and want to, want to hear more, please get in touch with me or Christos and we can, we can get that into the world in a good way.Christos, thank you so much brother. It's been a pleasure and I hope to have you on the pod again soon. Christos: All right. Thank you. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

My guest on this episode is Healani Sonoda-Pale, a Kanaka Maoli Human Rights advocate for Self-Determination and a Water Protector who has been organizing at the intersection of the indigenous struggle for liberation and environmental protection in Hawai'i. She is a member of the Red Hill Community Representation Initiative and the spokesperson of the Ka Lahui Hawaii Political Action Committee. Healani was born and raised on the island of O'ahu where she resides with her family.Show Notes:The Beauty of the Pandemic Shutdown in Hawai'iThe Fallout of the Lahaina Fires in West MauiNo ControlsManufacturing the AuthenticReopening for Tourism in the Midst of CatastropheLocal Schism: Those in Favour and Those AgainstThe Tourism at the Heart of the Housing CrisisKa Lahui Hawai'i Political Action CommitteeThe Water Crisis in OahuDecolonizing Tourism is an OxymoronSolidarity with Kanaka MaoliHomework:Healani Sonoda-Pale InstagramKa Lahui Hawai'i | TwitterOahu Water Protectors | Red Hill Community Representation InitiativeTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] In the first season of the podcast I spoke to Hokulani Aikau and Vernadette Gonzalez about the attempts to decolonize tourism in the Hawaiian islands. And following that Kaleo Patterson. Who offered a deeper historical and cultural background into the ongoing us occupation of Hawaii. The military industrial tourism complex, and some of the traditional forms of hospitality that Hawaiians have engaged in. Since then, and especially because of the wildfires that spread through west Maui this past summer. Listeners have asked again and again, to return to the islands, to host the voices of those. They're now struggling with another catastrophe. Who are offering resilience and resistance. In the face of these enduring consequences. And as such, I welcome.Healani Sonoda-Pale to the pod. Thank you for joining me today, Healani.Healani: It's my pleasure to be joining this podcast and to help [00:01:00] spread the message about tourism in Hawai'i. Chris: Healani, could you do us the favor of elaborating a bit on where you're speaking from today and how the world looks like for you?Healani: Okay. So I'm a Kanaka Maoli woman, born and raised in Hawai'i on the island of O'ahu. I have been in the Hawaiian movement for liberation and self determination for nearly 30 years. I am a student of Dr. Haunani-Kay Trask, and I am on the front lines of many, many issues. The issues that we face today are, many of them are a consequence of tourism.The desecration of cultural sites. The degradation of our beautiful beaches pollution, traffic, overcrowding, the high cost of living in Hawai'i, the extremely high cost of housing in Hawai'i. These are all because of tourism. This is happening to Hawai'i. [00:02:00] As a result, direct result of the tourist industry, which Hawaii relies on.And in Hawaii, we have two businesses. We have the military industrial complex and the tourist industry. Those are the two worst industries to rely on, number one. And they are the most exploitive and extractive industries to have. They do not enhance our way of life here on, on these islands in Hawaii.They do the opposite. They have brought many of us to the brink where we are now, most of us living paycheck to paycheck. The average cost of a house in Hawaii is a million dollars.I believe Honolulu is the number one or at least the top three most expensive cities in the United States to live in. So tourism is a plague in Hawaii. It is a plague upon this place and it has caused us to [00:03:00] struggle on a daily basis, not just financially and not just socially, mentally as well. Having to deal with tourists on a daily basis in Hawaii is frustrating, so that's kind of like the space I'm coming from. I am involved with the water issue, protecting our water, which is now something that is a huge issue. I'm very much involved in the Red Hill issue. I'm involved with protecting Iwi Kūpuna, which is our traditional Hawaiian burials. I'm involved with the repatriation of our land. Again, another big issue. It never ends because the, the economic, social pressure to take and take and take until there's nothing left is relentless. So that's the space we're coming from. So you talked about COVID, right? You started this podcast in the beginning of COVID and COVID was an eye opener for a lot of people in Hawai'i. When COVID happened, [00:04:00] the state of Hawai'i shut down and tourists weren't allowed here during our shutdown.I believe it was like a year and a half. It was beautiful. Even though we were living in the middle of a pandemic, our beaches were empty. There were no lines at the stores. There was no traffic. Even the air we breathed seemed cleaner. The water we swam in, in the ocean, didn't have this sliminess on it, from tourists with suntan lotion swimming in it all day, right?So the fish came back. Even the plants and the land was happy. I mean, it was a beautiful time. Even though it was sad because we were living through a pandemic, it was a beautiful time for us as Kanaka because we got to see Hawai'i without tourists. And that really opened the eyes for people who usually are not as [00:05:00] critical of tourism, as many of us have been so more people in Hawaii started saying, especially Kanaka Mali, well, how do we move forward without tourism?But when the state opened up again, tourism came back and it came back with a vengeance.When you look at what was happening on social media and, you know, what people were posting and across all the islands, we saw some frustration. We saw people posting about interactions they were having with tourists at sacred sites and beaches. People were more aware that tourists were there after COVID because we were able to enjoy our beaches, enjoy our islands without them.And then when they came back, it was not only dangerous because we live 2, 000 miles away from the nearest continent. So, they were bringing in the COVID. I mean, from the time of [00:06:00] Captain Cook, tourists, visitors, explorers, missionaries, they have been bringing in diseases when, when Captain Coke arrived in 1778. We didn't have any immunity to these diseases, and so now, I think for a lot of residents here in Hawai'i, our eyes have been opened on what we have to give up for tourism.We have to sacrifice not only our beautiful island life, but a way forward that doesn't include commodifying who we are as a people, our culture, everything. The state's been talking about diversifying the industry here in Hawai'i, right? They wanted to look into agriculture was one. They've never seriously taken that up. And they always fall back on tourism.Chris: And why do you think that is? Because it's just so easy.Healani: Because they've invested. It's a multi billion dollar business. There's hotels. Waikiki [00:07:00] is loaded with hotels. It's business interests. It's those that have been in control of the tourist industry, wanting to keep control of that and wanting to keep their financial interests protected and keep going.So that is, that has been a problem. And of course we have strong lobbyists here in Hawai'i for the tourist industry. It is an industry that is supported by taxpayer dollars. It's one of the few industries we give millions of dollars of our money. It's a private industry supported by taxpayer dollars.So it's a private industry that we support that exploits not just our resources, our culture, but they have really degraded our way of life here. They've made everything so expensive that most of our people, most of the indigenous people of Hawai'i have moved away because they can't afford to live here.Chris: And you know, I'm curious [00:08:00] in this regard, to what extent do you think that this Government money and government decisions played a part in these wildfires that passed through West Maui in August, you know, like reading and researching for this interview and seeing what's been shared online and social media, the term management and mismanagement continues to arise in and among social movement activists.And I'm curious to what extent you think that either government action or inaction or the tourism industry had a part to play in what happened this past summer.Healani: The Lahaina Fires. was so tragic and the tragedy continues months after. The suicide rates are on the rise in Lahaina. Families are still displaced, thousands of them. They were just [00:09:00] a few days ago, I had posted about it. They were just given again, eviction letters. The last time I was in Maui was there.The first set of eviction letters that went out. So they're being housed in hotels, 7,00-8,000 of them; families that have lost everything, in hotels. And now they're being told to leave to make way for tourism, to make way for tourists. That's the enormity of the pressure that tourists, tourism brings with it. The pressure to a piece and to serve and to put tourism first.Just going back to my childhood in school. We were basically brainwashed into thinking we need tourism. Without tourism, we wouldn't have jobs. There would be no money, you know? So it's been kind of ingrained in us. And that's why I think COVID was super important because it was an eye opener for a lot of us.Because they saw really [00:10:00] what was possible, a world without tourism. And so the pressure to support, to push tourism, to... "they always say, we want to support small businesses," but it's really not about small businesses. It's about those huge, multinational corporations that have invested millions.into this industry and have supported and lobbied for their industry, for the tourist industry. That's what it's really about, to a point where they really don't care about the people, the residents of Lahaina. They're literally traumatizing these families again and pushing them around to make room for an industry that we all pay to support.And the Lahaina fires is a result of corporations, land grabbing by corporations of [00:11:00] tourism gone wild, literally. The whole culture of Hawaii is about making sure tourism is going to be okay in the future. We're one big resort. That's what we are.Hawaii is one big resort. Everything is catered for tourists first. It's always tourists first, residents last. And kanaka maoli not even considered, like we're not even in the equation, except when they want us to dance hula, and when they want us to chant, and when they want us to teach tourists how to make leis. So the whole Lahaina situation is very complicated.Tragic, and it continues to be tragic. Over a hundred people died in those fires. And Lahaina is like a real big hub for tourists, and has been. It's like the Waikiki of Maui. So having that burned down, I think, was a big loss for the tourist industry on Maui. [00:12:00] So they are trying every which way to bring that back. In fact, today they're going to unveil the strategic plan for the next few years for Maui, which again, is just a slap in the face. It's insulting to the people of Lahaina. They're actually having it in West Maui. It's insulting to the people of Lahaina to have now a discussion about how to move forward with tourism while they're still displaced. There's thousands of families that don't know where they're going to be next month.There are thousands more that don't have access to clean water, don't have jobs, that have multiple families living in their homes and they're going to have a big presentation on tourism today. That's what we have to deal with.There is a mythology that's been built around the tourist industry that basically tells us, you know, [00:13:00] we need tourism. We need tourism. For some reason, we won't be able to survive without tourism. So that's the culture of Hawaii. And that's what I've grown up in. One of the things that is concerning about tourism is the fact that there's never been an environmental assessment or environmental impact study done on the effects tourism has on Hawaii .There are no controls. There's no control of how many people will be allowed in, how many people will be allowed at a certain beach, how many people will be allowed to swim and hike up to a sacred pond.There's nothing like that. It's like a free for all here in Hawaii when it comes to tourism.With tourism comes a thriving sex trade. So we have a number of brothels that, of course, are illegal, here in O'ahu. And a real epidemic with a [00:14:00] high number of missing and murdered Native Hawaiian women and girls. Hmm. This is the average characteristics of a victim of a missing girl is 15 years old native Hawaiian.And that's you know, that's the reality here in in Hawaii. So tourism is one of those industries that has a lot of low paying jobs. People have to work two to three, sometimes four jobs to survive here in Hawaii because Hawaii has the highest cost of living and one of the highest in the United States and it's really a struggle to make a living off of the tourist industry.Once tourism gets a foothold in your community, then it's very difficult to get tourism out. And right now, I'm in the midst of a struggle with keeping tourism out of East Maui.[00:15:00] They're expanding tourism into rural areas because they want to make these real authentic experiences for tourists.And they want to provide cultural experiences for tourists now. And the last couple years, the Hawaii Tourism Authority has done something called destination management, which is where they give money to non profits to host tourists in these real authentic settings, where they get to work in the taro patch or they get real cultural experience hiking or storytelling or something like that and in exchange these non profits get paid.The reality of this Destination Management Program that they always give Hawaiian names to -Aloha Aina, Kahu Aina -the reality of these programs [00:16:00] is that they're actually community bribes.Residents are less tolerant of tourism these days, especially post COVID. And so these programs, like the Destination Management Programs that they're now doing, and have been doing for a couple years are community bribes that help residents swallow the bitter pill of tourism. And that is pretty much how this whole thing kind of plays out.Whatever financial benefits we get out of tourism, they're short lived and they aren't sustainable. And in fact, they threaten a sustainable and livable future for residents here, especially Kanaka Maoli.Chris: Do you see any parallels between the quote return of tourism following the COVID-19 lockdowns and later after the fires? Was anything learned by the inundation of [00:17:00] COVID carrying tourists?Healani: Yeah, so I see parallels between what's happening with tourism post COVID and what's happening with tourism post-Lahaina fires. And what's very clear with the government here, the local government has made very clear is that tourism, no matter the cost, in terms of our health and safety, comes first.And that has been shown over and over. While, when they opened up tourism, the COVID numbers went up. And because, of course, people are bringing COVID in. And that put the numbers of people in the emergency rooms and in our hospitals that went way up. We don't have the capacity and we still don't have the capacity to serve thousands and thousands of residents and tourists at the same time.In terms [00:18:00] of medical health care. And so we, you know, we're in a really tight spot for that, you know. So we were really struggling because our hospital and our medical system was overrun.We had sick tourists and we had sick residents. And when you look at the numbers, it was the Native Hawaiians and the Pacific Islanders who were not just catching COVID more, but also dying from COVID more often than others. And with Lahaina, same thing. Instead of waiting, holding off on reopening Lahaina and Maui for tourists, they opened it up super early.In fact, they opened it up a month ago, for tourism. They opened up line up for tourism and families are still suffering. Families don't know what's going to happen next month, where they're going to be living next week. There's [00:19:00] thousands of displaced families still in Lahaina, yet the pressure to open up to tourism is so immense that they did it anyway. So what happened with COVID and the Lahaina fires is that they really show that what they're prioritizing.They're not prioritizing the health and safety of, of the residents, let alone Kanaka Maoli residents. They're prioritizing business interest.Chris: Mm. Hmm. Really just showing the true face, the true nature of the industry. Right. And then not in any way surprising why locals, both residents and Kanaka Maoli would be so upset and so angry, not just with the industry, but with tourists as well when they arrive having no understanding of this. Right. And so my next question kind of centers around locals there, workers, especially. And in this particular article, It says that, "as tourists returned to the [00:20:00] island, displaced residents are still in need of long-term solutions for their future, most notably in terms of long-term affordable housing. Currently. Quote, "a coalition of 28 community groups have staged what's being called a 'fish-in' on Kaanapali beach to help raise awareness of the ongoing impacts of the Malai wildfires. Wearing bright red and yellow shirts, the protesters have pledged to fish along kind of poly beach. An area usually crowded with sunbathers in swimmers, around the clock 24 7, in order to bring awareness to these issues. And so in terms of strategy and solidarity, How have local people and organizations responded in the context of these last few months.Healani: Yeah. Many locals work in tourism. So a lot of people in Hawaii felt that the reopening was too fast, too early. There were other ways they could have dealt with. They always use the term 'affordable housing,' they always use that to [00:21:00] develop. Here they use small businesses to justify prioritizing tourism. So, their whole justification for opening up to tourism early, in Lahaina, was to support small businesses. But there are other solutions. We all know that. They give billions of dollars to Israel and to Ukraine for a war that has nothing to do with us, to other countries who are doing whatever they want with it. But when it comes to this whole issue of tourism and the displaced families, they could have supported these families and for at least a year supported these small businesses like they did during the pandemic, but they chose not to.There's other solutions they could've used, but for them, opening it up was more important than making sure families were okay.So, there is a split between some residents who feel they need tourism and some [00:22:00] who don't. And it's usually, again, business owners who rely on tourists for their livelihood. And like I said before, any kind of benefit we get from tourism is really short lived and the effects of tourism, not just on our environment, but on our society and on our economic system is more detrimental than beneficial.I'll give you an example tourism fuels people from other places wanting to buy a second home here. Tourists come to Hawaii, they see how beautiful it is, they love the beaches, of course. We have like really good weather on a daily basis. So when they come here to visit, they wanna buy a second home here.⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Right now we have a housing crisis in Hawaii, and the reason for this housing crisis is because we have [00:23:00] tens of thousands of empty homes. In fact, we could put all the houseless people that are in Hawaii right now into these empty homes. And we would still have thousands of homes left over. And that is one of the reasons why number one, we have one of the, like the highest housing costs. The average house right now sells for a million dollars.It could literally be a shack on a piece of land. It'll sell for a million dollars in Hawaii. It's because of the demand for housing here in Hawaii. And it's because of the fact that a lot of the housing that we do have are usually second homes. And lots of times they use it for short term housing rentals as well. And I just want to clarify the numbers for the short term housing rentals. There's about 30, 000 residential housing units that are being rented to tourists, instead of residents, instead of locals, instead [00:24:00] of Kanaka Maoli, so that's part of the problem here. We don't have a housing shortage.We have a shortage of housing rentals or landlords that want to rent to residents.So, what we gain from tourism doesn't even come close to what we are losing from tourism, from the tourist industry.Chris: Uh, Wow. . It's just a. It's incredible. How so much of this, this desire to vacation, escape, have fun, rest, make money "passive income" lead so much to the detriment of neighbors, of what might otherwise be neighbors in our midst. And I know that, I think I've read the other day that there's this group Lahaina Strong, that was asking for government intervention. Is that right? Healani: Yeah. So they've asked. Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. [00:25:00] Lahaina Strong, one of the lead groups in Lahaina, have asked for the mayor and the governor to intervene and to ask short term housing rental owners to provide long term housing solutions for those, the displaced families. And that hasn't happened yet.It's been months. It's been September, October, November, over three months. And these families, their future is still up in the air. They don't even have reliable housing. So again, it just tells you what the priorities of the state is. Honestly, I don't think they're going to get what they want.Chris: Thank you, Healani and for being a witness to all this and proceeding accordingly. I'd like to, if I can ask you a little bit more about your political work. If I'm not mistaken you're a spokesperson for Ka Lahui Hawai'i Political Action Committee. Could you explain a little bit about [00:26:00] this organization? What the name means, how it was formed its principles, goals, and actions, perhaps. Healani: Okay, so yes, I am the spokesperson for Ka Lahui Hawai'i, and I am part of the Komike Kalai'aina Political Action Committee, which is a national committee of Ka Lahui Hawai'i, which means the Hawaiian Nation.We are a native initiative for self determination and self governance. We were formed in 1987 by Kanaka Maoli, Indigenous Peoples of Hawaii, as a response to the illegal overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom, and as a way forward for our people to seek out justice and to create our own way forward by creating our own nation.I have been with Kalahui Hawaii since 1993. And I [00:27:00] joined after watching Dr. Haulani-Kay Trask do her speech on the grounds of Iolani Palace, where she proclaimed that we are not American. And that was an eye opener to me. And I joined Ka Lahui and I transferred to the University of Hawaii at Mānoa, became her student. A lot of the work that we've done has been nation building. We are a nation in exile, literally. We take stances on issues a lot of times. And the issues we've been doing has been from water issues to intellectual property rights, to land rights, to tourism. The issues we cover is literally anything that affects us as a, as a people and as a nation. So we cover a wide [00:28:00] spread of issues. Most recently it's been the water issue that we've been really focused on. And when you look at the water issue, again, you see the disparity there. We are in a water crisis on the island of Oahu. We are encouraged to practice conservation measures. However, the tourist industry, hotels with pools and fountains and large golf courses, which have to be watered daily, are not being told the same thing. They are the exception. They continue to waste water while on O ahu are concerned about the future.Of our children and grandchildren because we're not sure if number one, there will be clean water and number two, if there is clean water, there'll be enough clean water for everyone in the future, but the hotels in the tourist industry, they don't care. They have swimming pools and[00:29:00] golf courses.Tourists are not told to come here and conserve water. You know, in fact, they waste water in the tourist industry and you can see it. Are you seeing how they waste it? It's pretty visual and obvious. So Ka Lahui Hawaii has been active On the front lines with Mauna Kea issue, and we have treaties with other Native American nations. We've gone to the U. N., our past Keaāina, our governor, Merilani Trask helped to draft UNDRIP, which is the U. N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which is one of the most important documents that have come out from the U. N. for Indigenous Peoples and has reasserted all of our rights to self determination.There's about 400 million indigenous peoples around the world, and UNDRIP [00:30:00] is important to every single one of us.Chris: Well, thank you for, for that and the work that you do with Ka Lahui, Healani. I'll make sure that the requisite websites and links are up on the homework section and the end of tourism podcasts for our listeners. Now, in my interview withHokulani Aikau and Vernadette Gonzalez, they spoke of various projects within the tourism sector, undertaken by indigenous Hawaiians to uncover and share with tourists or visitors, the histories of the people and place so often ignored by the industry. Now in order to do this, to educate, many people work within the confines of the structures and the systems we already have, that is to decolonize tourism, for example. Now if we weren't limited by those current structures and systems. How would you personally want to proceed hosting the other, the foreigner? How would you want them [00:31:00] to proceed towards you and your people? How might you imagine such relationship to unfold? Healani: Yeah. Yeah. Decolonize tourism. That's an oxymoron. I don't believe in decolonizing tourism. The nature of tourism, it's like colonization. The nature of tourism is to exploit, is to extract everything it can from a place and from a people and it commodifies, things that to us are spiritual, to us are sacred, tourism commodifies it all. To decolonize something that was not created from indigenous peoples is impossible.We can decolonize our world. But we cannot decolonize systems of [00:32:00] oppression because they're set up to oppress us. And so that is, I don't know what to say. It's like I said before. You know, they keep changing the name, you know, Hawai'i Tourism Authority even though they have leadership that is Kanaka and they're trying to be culturally sensitive and they are doing, you know, destination management practices kind of thing and working with nonprofits and cultural groups.It's still tourism. It's still a business that wants to benefit from our land, from our water, from our culture, from our people. And when we talk about decolonization, when we talk about working against systems of oppression, it's really about us rebuilding our own systems that counter their systems.So it's all systemic, right? It's like a system of power that benefits one group [00:33:00] over the other. It stems from colonization, which is a system of power that is working against us. So to counter that, we have to create our own systems. We actually have to reconnect and recreate our old systems. So Franz Fanon talks about this. When colonization happens, what they do is they compartmentalize our world.So, you know, where we see the world as living, as where we see ourselves as part of nature, and part of this living system where there's balance. We give and take from the land. We take care of the land, the land takes care of us. In our cosmogonic genealogies as Kanaka, it tells us basically our universal perspective on all life, which is basically we are related to all the animals and plants and to the islands itself, because what it does is it recites the birth of every [00:34:00] living thing in Hawaii that was here during the time we were here, before Captain Cook arrived, but it connects us to this world and it tells us our place in it. And when colonization came, what they did was they ripped our world apart.And they separated us from nature. They separated us from our ancient beliefs. They separated us even from our belief in ourself. And many Native people, I'm sure can relate to this, but it's like living in two worlds. We live in a Hawaiian world, and we live in the Western world. We act a certain way in the Western world because of the way it's organized. And in our world, it's different. So, it's important to understand that we cannot infiltrate a system. Without the system infiltrating us. We're going to change before the system changes because these systems have been in place [00:35:00] for centuries.So I don't even want to answer the question about hosting foreigners or others because that's not even something that's on my radar. I don't imagine tourism in my future or in the future of our Lāhui, or in the future of our people. Kalahui, Hawai'i has taken stances against tourists and tourism. It's not worth what we have to give up to host foreigners. And I could go on for hours with stories of our people, putting themselves at risk, saving tourists in the ocean, and not even getting a word of thanks. Having tourists pee on our sacred sites, having tourists throw rubbish on our beaches. It never ends. So I think it's cute that they want to decolonize tourism. It's a multi billion dollar business. You cannot decolonize tourism unless you take [00:36:00] the aspect of capitalism out of it. It's like decolonizing money. How are you going to do that? It's like you need to build systems where you can sustain yourself and your people outside of these capitalist and outside of these corporate systems of power. Healani: Yeah, so what I would want to say to those who want to stand in solidarity with Kanaka Maoli, with the Native people of Hawai'i, I would say stay home. Help us spread the message that we do not want or need visitors to come to our islands. As the Native people of Hawai'i we're building our own food systems, we're bartering. We're trying to move forward as a people away from these other systems, away from tourism, away and out from under military occupation.It's a struggle that we're in. I think for those that are listening, it's important for you to[00:37:00] spread the word about the struggle that Native Hawaiians are going through in our own homeland and our struggle for liberation and to support us in whatever way you can. So I think it's important to support us from afar, I would say.And if you're here anyway, like if you end up coming anyway, then support. Don't just come here. Give back. Help out a Hawaiian organization. Help out a Hawaiian on the street. 40 percent of all houseless in Hawaii are Indigenous Hawaiians. And we only make up 20 percent of the population in our own homeland. 50 percent of the population in Hawaii's prisons and jails are Hawaiians.We have low educational attainment. We die from diseases that other people usually don't die from. We have probably the highest suicide rates in Hawaii. High infant mortality rates. So this isn't our paradise. But we have to make it a paradise for tourists. And that's something we can't continue to do.The reality of the [00:38:00] situation is that it's destroying our future right now. And you look at what happened to Lahaina, and that's all because of unsustainable development, high cost of living, corporations running amok, diverting the rivers, water being diverted to hotels and golf courses, instead of letting water just flow freely from the ocean, from the mountains to the sea.So that's what we're dealing with, and if you are thinking about coming to Hawaii, please, please think again and just support a Hawaiian organization in their struggle to reclaim what we lost. We did something around tourism. It's a survey that we gave to tourists who are here anyway, right? So that is our pledge for tourists if they are gonna come here. And we've had it out for a few years. We've tried to get like the airlines to push it out and stuff like that to raise awareness. Now they're doing more of that, which is good. [00:39:00] And I appreciate that. But ultimately, we don't want people to come here.Healani: That would be the end goal because Hawai'ians are displaced on our own land.This is our mutual aid that we set up to help families of Red Hill who still don't have clean drinking water, which is nuts. And this is two years after, right? So if they want to help with that, we appreciate that. Chris: I'll make sure that our listeners have all of those available to them when the episode launches.Healani: Because we're basically providing services to the residents, but Yeah, that's pretty much it. I can't believe people think they can decolonize tourism. It's freaking nuts.Chris: Yeah. I keep coming back to this notion that, you know, [00:40:00] part of colonization of our minds and the wars against us tend to stem from a war against the imagination and a war against us being able to imagine other worlds and just things completely differently. And I also think that when people don't have examples to follow of what that might be like to, to imagine things differently, and then also to not have the time to do that.You know, people tend to fall back on kind of simple alternatives, I guess.Healani: I think it could be useful for a little while, but it's like, we've got to work towards not sustaining it, but dismantling it, somehow getting rid of it.I mean, look at what everything that's happened to Hawaii, COVID, Lahaina fires. Our wildfires are like happening more and more. We have more on this island now than we've had before. It's just a matter of time before we have our own huge fire that's going to be devastating on this island.Chris: [00:41:00] I'm very grateful for your time, and I can tell very clearly that you're one of those people that's offering an example for younger people on how things might be different. So, I'd like to thank you for your time, your consideration. And I'll make sure, as I said, that all of these links are up on the End of Tourism website when the episode launches and and on social media as well.Healani: Awesome. Thank you so much. You have a good day. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode, my guests are and of the Podcast.Clementine Morrigan is a writer and public intellectual based in Montréal, Canada. She writes popular and controversial essays about culture, politics, ethics, relationships, sexuality, and trauma. A passionate believer in independent media, she's been making zines since the year 2000 and is the author of several books. She's known for her iconic white-text-on-a-black-background mini-essays on Instagram. One of the leading voices on the Canadian Left and one half of the F*****g Cancelled podcast, Clementine is an outspoken critic of cancel culture and a proponent of building solidarity across difference. She is a socialist, a feminist, and a vegan for the animals and the earth.Jay is a writer, artist and designer from Montreal and is the author of the Substack jaylesoleil.com and the zine series What Else Is There to Live For. Jay is also the co-host of F*****g Cancelled.Show Notes:Clementine & Jay's TravelsThe NexusIdentitarianism and Identity PoliticsGentrification & SolidarityHow Nationalism Leaks into the LeftThe Contradictions of IdentitarianismFreedom, Limits and GuesthoodBorders and BiomesThe Quest for Offline CommunitiesRadical & Reciprocal HospitalityAuthenticityHomework:Clementine's SubstackJay's Substack (including Dumplings & Domination)Clementine's ShopJay's StoreF*****g Cancelled ShopF*****g Cancelled PodcastTranscriptChris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the pod, Clementine and Jay. It's an honor to have you both here today. Each of your work both individually and together has been a great influence on mine and definitely eye-opening and if I can say so much needed in our time. So thank you for joining me. Jay: Thank you, man. Thanks for having us.Clementine: Thanks for having us.Chris: So, I'd like to start, if we can, by asking you both where you find yourselves today and what the world looks like for you through each of your eyes.Jay: Well, we both find ourselves in Montreal which is where we live. I was working in homeless shelters for years and then I got let go cause I tried to unionize the one I was working at. Actually I succeeded in unionizing the one I was working at. And they mysteriously did not have any money to renew my contract after that.And yeah, so I'm writing and I just launched a new solo podcast about like world history outside of the West. And so I've been working on that. It's called [00:01:00] dumplings and domination, which are two things that human beings love. And Yeah, so that's, that's what I'm up to. Clementine: Yeah, so I'm also, yeah, I find myself in Montreal, in the snow, and I guess, relevant to the topics of this podcast one of the things I'm grappling with now is my perpetual existence as a unilingual anglophone in the city of Montreal, which is a bilingual city, but it's a French city, like.Actually. And I'm planning on having a child and I'm planning to have this child here. And so I'm facing the dilemma of being like an English speaker whose child is not going to just be an English speaker. And so I really need to learn French, basically. So this is my struggle, because being 37 and only speaking one language my entire life, it's like super hard to learn another language.And I've really, really struggled. A couple times I've made an attempt to learn French, and it's like really [00:02:00] frustrating, but that is one of the things I'm grappling with. I feel like it's relevant to the podcast, because in many ways, even though I've lived in Montreal for like almost seven years, there's a way in which I still am kind of like a tourist here, because I haven't learned the language.So, will I complete my transition into becoming Quebecois? Chris: Yeah, maybe so. Jay: Only time will tell. Chris: I was just reading this biography of Ivan Illich, who's like was an Austrian philosopher and he said that like trying to learn a new language, especially if you're immersed in the place is the greatest measure or degree of poverty that one can undertake because of the degree of dependence that they have on other people and not just dependence, but like dependence on their hospitality, assuming it exists in order to, you know, be able to understand what you're saying and communicate in that way. Clementine: Like Montreal is interesting because at least in the neighborhood that I live and in many places in [00:03:00] Montreal, it's functionally bilingual. So it's not like learning in an immersive environment as if you went somewhere and everybody's speaking that language.So you kind of just have to or you won't be able to communicate. Like you have to learn here. You know, when I'm fumbling around trying to speak French, people just start speaking English to me because even if they're a francophone, like, at least in the neighborhoods where I live, most people are bilingual, and they speak better English than I do French, so they will accommodate me, which is polite of them, and also, It does not help me learn, you know?Jay: Whereas the government of Quebec will not accommodate you. Clementine: No, the government will not accommodate you at all. And so, like, it's only in circumstances where, like, I desperately need to understand where, like, there's no, there's absolutely no accommodation. So. Chris: And that kind of touches on my next question, which is, you know, in terms of the travels that you two have.Has there been that degree of poverty elsewhere? I mean, I imagine you might have traveled to other places maybe in Canada, maybe elsewhere. [00:04:00] What have your travels taught you each, if anything, about the world, about your lives, about culture? Jay: Yeah. I had kind of an unusual relationship with travel.Because as a kid, I moved to a different country every like three or four years cause of my parents work. And so, yeah, I grew up like in Asia and not just like dipping into a place and then like leaving right away but spending years of my life in each country. Right. And like learning the languages and stuff.And so, yeah, I think that was a quite an unusual way to kind of experience travel as a kid. And I think that it did definitely have a lot of impact on me. Because I think that travel in general, I think is a wonderful and amazing thing, you know, which is why people like to do it. And it can be really profound for your mind and your understanding of the world and of other people, you know but obviously there's travel and then there's [00:05:00] travel.I feel really grateful that I was able to see so much of the world by living there, you know and I think that it was really important for me in my kind of embodied understanding that other people and other parts of the world are, you know, just as real and just as important and just as embedded in history as I am and as like the people are in my passport country, which happens to be Canada, you know?Clementine: Yeah. I've traveled a little bit, but I think for me, like, When I was young, I was too crazy to travel, you know, and I truly mean that, like I have complex PTSD and like as much as my life was so chaotic and like really, like, you know, on F*****g Cancelled, Jay and I talk about how we're both alcoholics in recovery, like, When I was drinking, I always wanted to be someone who traveled, and my life was very, like, chaotic and full of violence and danger and all those types of things, but the PTSD made it really hard to do [00:06:00] anything because I was always scared, you know and being a woman traveling... like, in recovery, I've wanted to try to travel more, but the combination of one being a woman traveling alone, it does come with certain risks to it.You're more vulnerable in certain ways and then add that to the PTSD. It's like... it's super anxiety producing, you know, so it's something that I've done a little bit but not as much as I would have liked to and I guess we'll see like what the future holds with that. One thing is is that like I learned to drive pretty late.I learned to drive in my 30s and once I learned to drive going on road trips was actually a way that really opened up travel for me because having my car with me gave me this sense of like safety, basically, that I could leave a situation like I was there with my car. So I had like the independence to like not be dependent on like strangers because I was afraid of them basically.But we went on a podcast tour last [00:07:00] year and drove like all across the United States in like a month and like drove down to like Arizona and like back up the West coast. And like, that was really, really cool. Chris: Beautiful. Thank you both. And so, you know, it might seem a little strange for you two to be invited on a podcast about tourism, migration, hospitality given that, you know, perhaps on the surface of things, your work doesn't appear to center around such things, but I've asked you both to speak with me today, in part, because I see a lot of parallels between what you've both referred to as the nexus in your work and what I refer to as the, a touristic worldview. And so to start, I'm wondering if you two could explain for our listeners, what the nexus is and its three main pillars.Clementine: So, in shorthand, or in, like, common language, you might call it social justice culture. There's a lot of different ways that this culture has been talked about but it's a particular [00:08:00] way of doing politics on the left, or left of center. And. Like, Jay and I come from inside this culture, so we are coming from inside social justice culture, being, like, leftists and being queer people and having existed in, like, progressive social justicey spaces for our entire adult lives, basically.And basically, we're noticing that there wasn't really language to talk about some of the phenomenons that were happening inside social justice culture or even, you know, social justice culture itself doesn't really give itself a name. Like we can call it social justice culture or we could call it something else, but it doesn't really have a name that it like claims for itself.It basically describes itself as like just doing politics or like being morally correct, you know, right? Yeah, being right. So we just started using the nexus as kind of like a placeholder for talking about a phenomenon that like doesn't really have a name. And we were trying to describe like this social phenomenon that we were totally [00:09:00] immersed in that there wasn't really language to describe. And we pulled out like three components that we saw interacting with each other to produce this phenomenon that we were calling the Nexus. And those pillars or components would be cancel culture, social media, and identitarianism. So, you maybe want to say more. Jay: Yeah, and we were just noticing how like when those three components were interacting on the left, you know they were producing a kind of like fourth thing that we were calling the Nexus and it's just like cancel culture was kind of this, you know, this culture of disposability and very sort of like intense acrimony functioned to sort of like boundary the whole thing and to keep, you know, certain views out and keep certain views in and sort of like establish the boundaries of what was thinkable or not.And the identitarianism provided the sort of ideological underpinning of the whole thing, like a way of making sense of the world, a [00:10:00] way of thinking about any problem and any issue, you know? And then social media was kind of the medium in which it was all taking place. And that was providing a lot of the kind of like the scaffolding of what it ended up looking like.Yeah. Does that make sense? Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you both. And so I like to start then if I can with with identitarianism and you know as it pertains to, I guess, the end of tourism podcast and the way I've come to understand it is that to be a tourist isn't just to be a foreigner, but a stranger to the place one inhabits.And so in this sense, I feel that people can be tourists in their own homes and to a large degree the housing crisis, among many others seems to enable and ennoble this, you know, people know that they won't be able to afford a rent increase. And so they don't bother getting to know their neighbors or participating in the community.And beyond that community is often described in demographic terms, you know, the black community, the queer community, et cetera. But rarely [00:11:00] anymore in terms of the diverse people that you actually live beside or near. And so, for me, this is where tourism not only hits home, but is kind of unveiled as maybe beginning at home.You know, it's not just an industry, but something akin to a lifestyle or culture, as you said, Jay, of disposability. And so in this context, what I understand is identitarianism seems to enable this kind of touristic mentality of not needing to think of myself as a person of consequence in my building or in my neighborhood because I'll be out of here in another year or two anyway, right?And so I'm curious what you think of this idea and whether you think that identitarianism is a consequence of these crises that exist today, like the housing crisis, like landlordism, for example. Jay: Yeah, I definitely think it's all connected.And I think that I think that a huge part of all of this, right, is accelerating alienation that people are experiencing under the [00:12:00] dominant form of neoliberal capitalism. And alienation just describes this deep embodied sense of disconnection from oneself, from one's work and from one's fellows.And this is a concept that goes all the way back to Marx and before him even, you know, but Marx, I think correctly identified that capitalism had a mechanism within it that amplified this, this sense and created more of it. And I think that as we hurdle down the path of neoliberal apocalypse, we're sort of like more and more exposed to the sense of alienation.And so what does that mean? It means that we end up feeling like we don't know who we are. We don't know where we are. We don't know who the people around us are. We're just sort of floating, we're atomized, you know. We don't have roots or the connections that we do have feel fleeting and shallow.You know, and it produces obviously a deep sense of like misery in a lot of people, [00:13:00] whether they know it or not, I would say. But it also produces a longing for connections that feel real and that feel authentic. And I think that the turn towards identitarianism that has become more and more apparent over the last like decade or so both on the left and the right because I think that the rise of like the alt right, for example, was very much an identitarian movement as well. Yeah, it's that, that pivot towards identitarianism is a consequence of people feeling like they have no connections and they really want connections. They want to feel embedded in something, you know and so they're looking for other forms of community that they can belong to other than the communities that they actually live in, you know, because those communities that they actually live in have started to feel so disconnected and illusory, right?I do have more to say about the concept of like authenticity and all of this, which I think is like really foundational to tourism. But I will pass the mic. Well, I feel like we're probably going to get [00:14:00] into it later. Clementine: Okay. Well, yeah. So I mean, I think when talking about identitarianism, it's useful to make the distinction between identitarianism and identity politics.And we make that distinction on the podcast, but in case listeners aren't really familiar with the term identitarianism, I think it's useful for us to be a little bit clear about what we mean. And basically, identitarianism is distinct from identity politics. So, identity politics is just basically saying that identity matters when we're thinking about what is affecting people's lives, right?And when we're organizing politics, when we're trying to think of solutions where we can make the world better, identity is going to play a role. And that just means we're acknowledging that things like racism exists, homophobia exists, like, sexism exists, that the ways that our lives are shaped are impacted by identity.And like, we agree with that, we're not against that, as a framework. But identitarianism takes identity politics to a new place, where it basically does two main things to it. One, it [00:15:00] acts as if identity groups are homogenous, or share, like, very intense essential qualities, you know? So, when you make a statement, like, the BIPOC community thinks this.You're being identitarian and you're also being essentialist because you're actually making a statement in which you're saying that billions of people share a view, which is incorrect and also, like, very disrespectful to the vast diversity of thought that exists within any identity group, right? So it's actually like, it's an expression of essentialism and this belief that, like identity groups share essential qualities.And it erases, like, the vast political differences and personal differences that don't exist always within any identity group. And then secondly, Identitarianism acts as if identity is the primary or only way that power functions. So when we're trying to understand, like, what is wrong with the world, and what is going on, and why are we all suffering?Identitarianism [00:16:00] encourages us to look first, and maybe only, at identity as the way in which power is divided and organized. And so, in this way, you know, we have people, like basically collecting identity points. And what I mean by that is, like, adding up their various identities to try to understand their lives and their access to power.So people will be like, okay, I have these identities that are considered marginalized identities, and then I have these identities that are considered privileged identities. And so if I do some math, I'll be able to figure out where I stand in terms of power, right? And this is a total oversimplification of the way that power works.Identity is probably impacting your life in various ways. and may have a role in like your access to power, but it is not the only thing, and it's not as simple as just adding and subtracting to try to figure this out, and many, many things are lost when we are only using identity as the way to understand power, and so like when you're talking about, I just want to say that like that what you said [00:17:00] about people moving, I think is really fascinating because I moved like every year or two years.My entire, like actually I kind of haven't stopped because I've only lived where I currently live for like just about two years. So, I've basically been doing that since I was 16. I'm 37. Wow. Chris: Wow. Wow. Clementine: You know, and like, I don't mean cities, but I mean neighborhoods and at least apartments, you know, and actually my current neighborhood I've lived in probably the longest that I've ever lived anywhere but I've still moved several times and I've managed to stay in the same neighborhood, but like over the course of my teenage years, all my entire twenties and into my thirties, like, I was just constantly moving.And, you know, I, I had a sense of place in terms of the city I lived in. Like, I was living in Toronto for most of for my twenties. But I lived all over that f*****g city. Like, all over that city. You know, I didn't live in any particular neighborhood. And so because of that, like, I didn't really have that sense of like place and like there wasn't really a point in knowing my neighbors because it's true. I was going to [00:18:00] be moving and I knew that and so that is like a material reality that is being structured by capitalism and by landlords and rent and not having enough money and not having housing security.And identitarianism isn't really helping me to understand that, right? Like I can't really make sense of that experience if my only lens that I'm looking at the situation with is identity. And that's just like one example, but there's many, many things that, identity as if it's our only frame is not going to help us to understand.Jay: Or like it, it might help you feel like you understand it, but it's probably not going to give you a very good explanation, you know clear picture. Yeah, it's like there's this word that I stumbled across recently. I think it's like "monocausotaxophilia" I'm pretty sure is what it is and it's like the it's like the obsessive belief that like one there's like one answer for everything or like one thing can help you explain everything and it's it's like a common like logical fallacy that humans fall into, where like we just we discover something that really seems like it's right and then we're [00:19:00] like this can explain everything we can just apply this to everything, you know, and I think that identitarianism is like a an excellent example of this tendency that humans have Chris: Yeah.Wow. Kind of monotheism for politics, I guess. It's fascinating for me because I see a lot of these identitarianist dynamics play out in the context of tourist cities and the one that I lived in, still live around, just not in anymore.And then of course the people that I interview who deal with over tourism and of course all the crises that come with it. And so You know, like in the early pandemic, for example, in places like Oaxaca or Medellin in Colombia, for example, they suddenly became hotspots for digital nomads and other tourist escapees.And the consequences of over tourism in these places already existed, but once travel restrictions had [00:20:00] dropped and vaccines were doled out, places like this, and maybe the more obvious ones like Bali or Hawaii or Barcelona those consequences exploded and, you know, the number of visitors skyrocketed. And so both local people and foreigners opened Airbnb after Airbnb, and this is kind of what ended up happening in a lot of places in the, in the course of, you know, a couple of years essentially deepening the economic and social divisions in those places. And so what we've seen is that people simply tend to point their finger at the tourists, at the foreigner, ignoring the economic and political issues that affect these things.And so, what's arisen on the internet at least have been faceless social media accounts basically cancelling tourists or foreigners for you know anything you can think of for being cheap, people complaining about prices on their YouTube video or whatever, and others criticizing local cultures for X Y Z Zed pardon me and some Some who [00:21:00] refuse to, like, to speak the local language, for example, all of which, you know, constitutes bad behavior.And even still, like, other people, foreigners who become landlords in their new homes, right, who move to another country and just, you know, rent a nice place and then put it on Airbnb or something. And so, I'm curious about the individual? And why do you think, in so many of these cases, especially in regards to people who claim to be leftists or anarchists or radicals, that the focus is squarely put on individuals or individual behavior as opposed to the conditions or systems that created that behavior?Jay: Oh yeah, I mean, we've become like ludicrously unable to actually look at structural causes of anything in a way that allows us to formulate policy and work towards policy. Like, I think that like one of the major like failings of the left currently is that it is, especially in like the Anglo world, like completely f*****g unmoored from policy.I think in the US there's like a really [00:22:00] obvious reason for that, which is that there is, you know, no political party that's even remotely. So the idea that you could, that you could have policy that you like is sort of like nonsense to people in the first place. Right.So everything then becomes about either it would become either about individual behavior or about some sort of like more radical revolutionary option, you know but the radical revolutionary option doesn't exist. So it's all about the individual behavior. And a comparable situation is going on elsewhere in the Anglosphere as well where the sort of like political avenues for policymaking are severely lacking.So I think that there's this like strong, strong emphasis on the individual, on individual behavior, on moralizing on sort of angrily saying what should be true rather than working with like, you know, like reality. Yeah. Clementine: Yeah, I think that people, like, we haven't seen an effective left in our lifetime, like, you know, like we haven't seen the left making gains, like, for [00:23:00] millennials, like basically for our entire lives, you know?We haven't seen movements be successful, and so we feel very powerless. Like, there's a deep, deep sense of powerlessness in the face of capitalism and in the face of climate change and in the face of so many of the horrible conditions that we're living under, and we don't have a lot of evidence of things working, but we know we have the power to take down some individual person and publicly humiliate them and destroy their life.And so I think people get very addicted to that sense of power because it is like a balm to the abject helplessness that we feel under capitalism where we don't have a lot of power to really make the changes that we want to make, you know, but one of the things we're always talking about on the podcast is how cancel culture, while it provides this like temporary relief and this feeling like we're doing something like we have power.In fact, it erodes the very conditions that would allow us to have real power and the conditions that would allow us to have real power are solidarity. Right. Like, the one thing that the working class of the world [00:24:00] has that the capitalists don't is our numbers, right?Like, they have all the money and the use of force, you know? But we, there's just lots of us, and also we are the ones who make all their s**t. Like, or like, run their little online companies or whatever it is that they're doing now. Yeah, exactly. So, it's like literally the workers of the world are the ones who actually make capitalism run and there are no profits if the workers of the world organized and f*****g withdrew their labor, right? But currently, we don't have any conditions of like an organized working class movement that could actually threaten to do something like that. And so, there's no real avenue. Like unions have been like totally f*****g eroded there's no solidarity.There's no, like Workers movement that is being effective. I mean there are attempts at it like there was I don't know what happened with it because I'm off social media now, and I haven't been checking the news, but there was a gigantic like uprising of Bangladeshi textile workers who were like going on strike and like the police were trying to totally shut them down.I don't know what ended up happening kind of disappeared off my radar, but I think any movement for solidarity, you [00:25:00] know, cancel culture b******t aside, because honestly, it is such a distraction. Like it's annoying and it's a distraction would have to move towards like international solidarity.And I think that this is something that... we don't even have, like, solidarity, like, where we live, let alone solidarity, like, across the globe with workers in different places, you know? But under global capitalism, I think we're going to have to start looking with an internationalist lens and thinking about what would it look like to have the workers of the world actually uniting.Jay: Yeah. It reminds me of gentrification, you know? It's like, individual gentrifiers are sure like annoying, right? You know, people who sort of like don't belong there and are bringing their like annoying habits into the neighborhood or whatever, you know, and driving up prices and all this.But at the end of the day, this is like a structural issue that can only be solved by policy, right? You can't, you can't just sort of like be hostile towards gentrifiers and expect that to sort of like end up with anything other than you being angry and other people perhaps being frightened for like a couple of years until the [00:26:00] process of gentrification is complete.And I think that you know, there's like a similar thing with tourism, you know, I mean, tourism is just kind of like gentrification on like a, an international scale in a certain sense. Yeah. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I mean here in Oaxaca, tourism is like 85 90 percent of the economy in the center of the city. And so it's all changing really quickly, wherein, people are sometimes hearing more English than Spanish in the streets, right? Not just in Oaxaca, but in other places as well. So there's this relative and understandable kind of resentment against the foreigner, but then when we have these gatherings and, you know, people ask me, well, like, "what should we do?" And I say, "well, go talk to the tourist, like, you can build solidarity with that person, even if it's by them understanding what's going on here, and maybe not coming back. As an extreme example, right. But what's also happened as a result, not just this waving or wagging the finger at the individual, but also in the context of identitarianism, reconvening the nation state.[00:27:00] And so my next question.. It kind of feeds off of the first and has to do with the effects or consequences of this kind of pseudo cancel culture that arises from tourism crises in places like Oaxaca and others. And so what you tend to see are locals identifying tourists or foreigners based on skin color.In Latin America, you know, the tourist is by and large the gringo, or the gringa, basically a white American. And what's happening as a result, especially among people who consider themselves, again, leftist or anarchist, is that they end up self identifying in opposition to the foreigner. And so what we see is an over identification, or what I will call anyways an over identification, with one's own skin color, class, and especially, especially now, nationality.And so, understanding the other as American means I'm Mexican or Colombian, or whatever, right? And I'm curious whether or not either of you consider [00:28:00] identitarianism to be a child of nationalism or how nationalism fits into these contemporary understandings of identitarianism.Jay: Right, right. Well, okay, I definitely have some thoughts about that for sure. I would say that like, nationalism is certainly one of the kind of original modern identities, right?And it was very much like crafted on purpose to be that, which I think that a lot of people don't know, unless they've like, you know, done like a sociology degree or something, but nationalism and the nation itself was like a modern invention created a couple of hundred years ago for specific political purposes, namely to unite quite disparate populations within at that time, mainly like European countries and to try to get the children of those people to think of themselves as like French instead of Breton, you know and to get them to speak French instead of Breton, right? As an example. And there is similar cases all over Europe. Anyways, that being aside, yes, like [00:29:00] nationalism certainly is like a form of identity and one of the most important forms of modern identity. I think that when we talk about identitarianism, often we end up not talking about nationalism very much because on the left, nationalism tends to be sort of like not the most important identity.It's one that you kind of downplay, especially if your nationality is one of the privileged Western rich nationalities, right? However, obviously if your nationality might you know get you points in, in whatever sort of like game you're playing, then you might, you might play it up.Clementine: Yeah, I have a couple things to say about this. I mean, one, the nexus or social justice culture, that we talk about on F*****g Cancelled, comes out of the United States of America. And the United States of America, they don't know that they're in the United States of America. So, Jay: This might be surprising to people because of the number of flags that are everywhere in America, but they don't know that they're in america.Clementine: They think they're just in the world. They think that that is the world, you know? And so, [00:30:00] there is this like, this lack of awareness or like basically they're not contextualizing what they're thinking and doing in an American context, even though it is, and then they're exporting that to the rest of the world, especially like English speaking places.But then it like leaks out from there. But it is an American way of understanding things based in an American context and an American history, right? And so you see this a lot with identitarianism where the popular framings and understandings around race, for example, that are going around social justice culture right now are specifically coming out of an American context and American constructions around race, and they don't map on perfectly to other contexts, but because it's being exported, because Americans are exporting their culture all over the world, we, in other places, are expected to just take it on and to start using that framework. And people do, but it doesn't really work properly. It doesn't really make sense in a different context. So that is a way in which like nation kind of disappears even though it is operating [00:31:00] in the way that identity is actually being shaped. Another thing that happens, and Jay and I were just talking about this for an upcoming episode. Another thing that happens is that because in North America anyway, like we don't really use nation as a category in identitarian thought, what ends up happening is that people actually racialize their national identity in a weird way to make it make sense in identitarianism. And so one of the ways that this can happen is that people from South America who are white, in a Northern American context, are sometimes racialized and considered people of color because they are not speaking like English as a first language, for example, or because there's cultural markers that are showing them as not North American, and so therefore they are impacted by various types of discrimination and so on and so forth, but in their context, they are actually racialized as white, but then in North [00:32:00] America, they may be racialized as non-white. And so this actually comes through like a I mean, first of all, it shows that race is like a made up category that can shift and be expressed in different ways.But also it is partially like the narcissism of North America that can't conceptualize difference, basically, and understand that, like, a person can actually be white and from South America and speak Spanish, for example. Jay: Which, like, this can also sometimes, we were joking about this, too, because it's true, like, this can also sometimes extend to people not being sure about, for example, like Portuguese people, and sort of like racializing Portuguese people on the basis of their sort of supposed affinity with like Latin America.⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, one thing that I want to mention too, you're just reminding me of this because of my research that you, that you mentioned is that like racialism, which is the idea that race is important and, and as a major identity category that people should care about a lot, let's put it that way, has often existed very [00:33:00] uneasily with nationalism.And so for a lot of like neo Nazis, they're not necessarily like opposed to nationalism, but they would, they would treat racial affinity with much more importance than they would a national affinity, especially when the national affinity is seen to have been kind of polluted by like foreign elements, for example, you know, and a big part of the national project has been to say that, like, we are all members of this national identity, sort of like, no matter who we are, blah, blah, blah. Right. And obviously some of us are more than others, right, is usually is how it's gone, but it tries to integrate like many different groups of people, including, you know, in the United States, for example, including like black Americans.Right. And, you know, the project of the integrated military, for example, has been a big part of the American national imaginary but if you're a white racist, you're not interested in a sort of national identity that, that includes black Americans as [00:34:00] well.Right. And this is also somewhat true on the left in different ways. But yeah, I'll just put that out there. Yeah. And then I guess the only other last thing I would like to say about this is that when we are anti essentialist and anti identitarian on the left, one of the things that, that like an anti racism that is rooted in an opposition to essentialism will argue and put forth is that race is a constructed and made up concept, right, which is something that I believe: race is not a real thing.It is like racism is real, but racism is based on the invention of this way of dividing up people based on race. And so there's a lot of anti essentialist leftists who are arguing this, but one thing that is important is to not confuse race, which is a made up category, with culture and ethnicity, which are real things, right?And one of the things, like, Jay and I have been talking about, and we're going to do an episode about this, or, like, related to these ideas, is, like, we actually care a lot about things, like, language protection, [00:35:00] culture protection, like the importance of people being able to keep and protect their cultural identities is like, it's a very important thing in respecting people's like human dignity.And in Canada, where colonialism has so thoroughly attacked indigenous Canadian people's cultures. They don't have their languages anymore. And like, Protecting language is, like, hugely important for people's mental health and well being, right? So, dividing those two things, that being, like saying race isn't real doesn't mean that we're not in favor of protecting culture and language.Yeah. Chris: Right, right, right. Of course. What's interesting about the, I guess, the reactions to overtourism here, it's not just that, Oh, the gringo is an American, so I'm a Mexican, but it's also racialized. It's also, okay. So who I see on the street, white people, and because I'm dark skinned, it reinforces those dualities, binaries, et cetera but it re-racializes local people, and in the context of Mexico [00:36:00] anyways the roots of their understandings of their racializedness, if I can say that comes from the imposition of race, of races, by the Spaniards, onto them, and saying this is who you are now, 400 years ago.Right? And so the new invasion, the tourism, right, is recapitulating that dynamic in ways in which people internalize the racial impositions that were put on them 400 years ago. Or their ancestors, right, I should say. So it's just mind boggling.Clementine: Yeah, I think, I think it's interesting though, right? Because how do we hold, like, the importance of culture and language and ethnicity while also acknowledging that those things were always shifting, changing, like, were never a static, constant thing, you know?That always included diversity, and within it, language is always changing and evolving. Culture is always changing and evolving, but also those things are real things that you can speak about and point to, and definitely notice when they'restolen from you or when you're no longer allowed to speak your language.Right. So yeah, like, I think we tend to go [00:37:00] to extremes. It's either like it doesn't exist or it's not important, or it's like a very essential, like static thing that has always only been one thing. Chris: Yeah, and also for a lack of history, right? I've been doing this investigation into Macedonian culture, ethnicity, history, etc, in part because my father is a first generation immigrant to Toronto, but from Agaean Macedonia and, you know, the Ottoman Empire was there controlling those lands for four or 500 years.And so the Ottomans were Muslim and the Macedonians weren't Macedonians to them, they were Christians. They were a Christian race, Mm-Hmm regardless of their language. And then when the Ottoman Empire fell, the Greeks and the Bulgarians ended up fighting over that territory, that land, that a lot of people considered to be Macedonian.And so the Greeks and the Bulgarians referred [00:38:00] to the Macedonians as the Macedonian race, no longer the Christian race, but the Macedonian race. So anyways, beyond that, once you get into the 20th century and start speaking in a global context, it's like, no, no, no, they're not the Macedonian race, they're a white race from Macedonia.And so, just this idea that race is inherently tied to skin color is very contemporary and it depends, of course, where it's coming from and who it's coming from, right? This idea of what race is becomes very fluid. I wanted to ask you two about escapism. I was just listening to your episode on freedom as a principle. Mm hmm. One of your most recent episodes and in it, you two speak of carceral institutions, jails, obviously, and I don't think it's very difficult to imagine how a touristic worldview, one built around escapism arises so fervently among people who feel powerless [00:39:00] to change the conditions in the culture that are oppressive and domineering.At the same time the glorification and commodification of that escapism through tourism creates a kind of a culture of abandonment and disposability, in the sense that you're leaving behind all your people and then once you get to this place, well, you're actually not responsible for anything you do there because it's not my, it's not my people, not my home.And so I'm curious, do you think that the freedom, that is usually couched in the freedom of movement has limits? And what do you make of the the inability to stay still in the context of all this?Jay: Man. Yeah, I mean it just makes me think about my own sort of like internal struggles that I have where like, basically like whenever I'm not doing very well, I have this part of me that wants nothing more than to just f**k off and travel sort of like indefinitely. It's like one of my strongest like internal urges, you know.I [00:40:00] don't know. I just keep thinking about that. But yeah, I mean, another thing that comes to mind for me, that is not, not a direct answer to your question, but it's just something that's coming up for me is that like, I think for like so many people in the wealthy West, you know they live in places that are comfortable because they're in the wealthy West, but they're like psychologically so destructive because it's just like these like vistas of like parking lots and like box stores and like depressing nothing places that no one could ever love and I think that like for a lot of people, and I hate to say this because it sounds like snobbish, you know, but it's like, whether or not they know it they are being psychologically attacked by the f*****g places that they live, you know, and there's a part of them that is like, I want nothing more than to get out of here, you know, and see something beautiful, and my question is sort of like, why can't we live in beautiful places? You know, and, and I actually like do live in a beautiful place and I love where I live, you know, [00:41:00] and the neighborhood in Montreal where I live is like gorgeous, you know it's a beautiful place to just walk around and look at stuff.It's very f*****g pretty. And there's a reason why I live here, you know, and I lived in other parts of the city and, and I gave up. You know, bigger, cheaper apartments to live here because I like how it looks and I like how it makes me feel to sort of like leave my house and f*****g walk around. And other people like it too.Millions of people come to Montreal as tourists. We actually have tourists in this neighborhood. And, and like when I leave my house and like walk around the corner, there's like lineups of tourists, you know that I have to sort of like navigate to like get to the gym.Because they're flocking around because it's f*****g nice here. But like a lot of places in North America are really not nice. They're not nice places to look at. They're not nice places to live. You can't f*****g walk anywhere, even if you wanted to you know, everything basically looks the same as everything else, you know?And yeah, it's not surprising to me that people would want to get out of there. Right. Also though, as I say this, it's not just North America that people [00:42:00] come from when they're tourists, right. Right. We're seeing like a gigantic increase in tourism from countries like China. Japan has always produced a lot of tourists, you know? So I think like part of it is just that like, as people get wealthier the desire to just see different things and whatever is always present in people and if they can do it, like there's no particular reason why they wouldn't but I think that it's, it's definitely worth trying to imagine what travel could look like and what like guesthood could look like, you know outside of a context where it's all just like this very commodified process that is not necessarily very great for the people who are on the kind of like hosting end of it.But yeah, again, like I live in a heavily touristed city, but apart from the tourists being quite annoying to have to walk around, like when there's like snow everywhere and they're taking up the whole sidewalk apart from that, and the fact that like Airbnb is a big problem in Montreal they don't bother me much here and I think that like a big part of that is just the, like, you know, Montreal is a very wealthy city, you know, so like an influx of like wealthy [00:43:00] foreigners doesn't like impact it that much other than to sort of like inject cash into the economy, which is not such a bad thing, right? And I do think that like part of the answer to all this is that we need to be like taking seriously internationalist solidarity and like the development of places that are not as developed.And it reminds me of like sort of debates about immigration to the West, you know, and it's like immigration, is a complicated topic and people have lots of different opinions about it, but like a lot of people on the liberal left will, will, will act like immigration is all by itself, like an amazing, awesome thing, always. And then people on the right will act like it's this terrible thing always. And I'm like, I don't know, it's kind of a neutral thing, you know, like there are good and bad things about it. Obviously people being able to travel is like a nice thing. I'll just say this, like, I think that like immigration is a good thing when the places that people are coming from are not so undeveloped or so poor that it's like forcing people out. Right. You know what I mean? And yeah, I dunno, , that was, that was like five [00:44:00] different tensions, so That's great. Chris: Love it. Clementine: So what, what is coming up for me is I saw this drawing that was like of whales swimming in the ocean.And it was like, basically saying something like, borders aren't real, because like, there's no borders in the ocean for whales or whatever. And this is part of this, like, thing on the left, and it's kind of related to what Jay was just saying, that, like, on the left, we do have this, this big like, belief in things like open borders or just free movement, free travel as, like, this positive and, kind of obviously good thing that we should support and I understand it, but at the same time, the fantasy that there aren't different areas in the natural world is false.There might not be borders, but there are biomes. And one of the things about travel that I don't think gets talked about a lot, and that is a big issue with, like, environmental destruction, is actually the reality of biomes and the fact that the movement of people across the world at the rapid way that we do it now [00:45:00] is moving plants, microbes, fungus from biome to biome and in different biomes the way that evolution works is that, like, those ecosystems were totally separate for all of this time, and then when some new, plant, animal, microbe, fungus gets into this new ecosystem, it may be that the other beings that live there have no defense against it, right? And then it causes massive problems, such as what goes on with invasive species.But like, just as a random example, like one of the major things that's causing extinction of bats is the introduction of this fungus into North America that comes from Europe or something and it comes on like tourists. They come and they don't know that they have it on them because it's just like little fungus and then they go and they visit bat caves and then they accidentally infect the bats and the bats are all getting sick and dying, you know, and so I just bring up this random example because the question of like what does it mean to be responsible when we go somewhere [00:46:00] when Even us just going there can cause problems that we didn't intend, you know?And it is a really complicated question. I'm not saying I necessarily have the answer. But especially from an environmental perspective, even if we get climate change under control, even if we deal with, you know fossil fuels, which we're not even close to dealing with, but even if we deal with that, we would still have this big question of, if we are going to continue to travel, say we get rid of planes, and then we have like airships and we're able to fly in a way that's not killing the climate, we still have this big question about what it means when we're bringing things on our clothes by accident.And I'm kind of like, instead of like security at airports, like I wonder if there could be like these places where we go in and we basically have to like leave our things. And like, when we arrive, we get like a special clothes that we wear. I don't know what it would look like because we're carrying fungus on our clothes.Jay: So. It would be really interesting to think about borders in a better world, you know and what that might look like, because I can imagine something like where it's like a supra national kind of like agreement between [00:47:00] different countries and stuff. And like the border is the border of the biome, not the border between the countries, you know?Clementine: Yeah, and I was just talking about it on like an environmental level, which I do think is very important and doesn't really get talked about enough. But I also think we can look at this on a human level where, you know, if we're thinking about like invasive species and like a plant coming in and just growing and taking over, we can also think about how when we bring.You know, for example, English, we can think about English as an invasive species, you know, like English is a species that's going to go there and because it's the language that if people speak more than one language, one of the languages that they speak might be English because it's kind of like taken over the world, then it means more and more people are going to be speaking English and then other languages are going to start dying out.And so this is like literally what an invasive plant species does, you know? And so I think, We need to think about that when we're bringing English into a space. Like, what are we doing in that space? How are we changing that space by bringing English into it? And I say that very self consciously as a unilingual English speaker, but [00:48:00] it is, you know, like.So, like, this idea of what it means to be a responsible guest, what it means to be somewhere, to visit somewhere, we need to think about, not even just the more obvious things, like throwing our garbage around, or being totally disrespectful, or using a place as a party spot, and then leaving, like, all of those things, I think, are very obviously disrespectful, and we need to be more considerate, but there's even more subtle ways, where just our very presence and the way that we bring ourselves can have an impact that we don't intend. That I think is part of the conversation about what it can mean to, to travel in a more ethical and responsible way. Chris: Amen. Amen. Yeah, I'm reminded of, and I don't know how relevant it is for the conversation, but I'm reminded of Terrence McKenna, the great psychedelic bard. He had a hypothesis that the main vehicle of evolutionary change or growth wasn't human beings or mammals, for example, but language.And we were just vehicles for language's evolution and spreading. And that languages are just fighting this secret battle, this secret [00:49:00] war. But, anyways. To speak to what both of you are saying, I interviewed, a man named Daniel Pardo in the first season of the pod, this activist from Barcelona, and he said, you know, "in no way can tourism be sustainable because we can't extend it to everyone on the planet. Like, it's actually impossible to ensure that seven or eight billion people can go on vacation once a year or fly. Right? He said, "there's no right to fly." And, so it's important to ensure that people have these freedoms, but then to what extent can they actually be applied? And I remember being back in Toronto last summer for a few months, and there were whole families and communities of migrants sleeping in front of churches on the street because from what I understand, the Canadian government the year previous had let in something like a million migrants and maybe half of them went to Toronto because it's the financial hub of the country. And there was [00:50:00] simply nothing for them there. There was no plan for them, by the government, there was no jobs, no social support, nothing, right?And so they ended up on the street, sleeping on the street in front of churches, en masse. In terms of the people that I knew who grew up there, and myself, we had never seen that before. And so you can create the freedom to migrate and things like that but what is at the end of that movement, right? So there are definitely these dynamics and nuances that need to be spoken of in terms of travel and the way people travel and the borders and, and biomes that affect the way we move. Yeah, and of course, I could go on and on. I have two more questions for you two, if that's alright? Sure. Okay. So on some of the f*****g canceled podcast episodes you have subtitled the theme of the quest for the offline left. And, you know, I think [00:51:00] largely emphasizing the word offline. And so, you know, what do you think being together offline and organizing offline can do to people whose lives have been shaped around online and social media mentalities?I mean, the three of us are more or less of the age that we still have a lived memory of life before the internet, but what about those who don't? Clementine: Yeah, absolutely horrifying. I mean, I think we are social animals who evolved to be together, looking at each other's faces, like, talking and being in the same space together.Like the alienation that Jay was talking about before, like both leads to our compulsive social media use and our desperate attempt to find community through that, and also completely contributes and worsens the problem, making it a million times worse where we are staring at our phones when we are literally, actually, physically together and could be having a conversation.And that is really like sad and depressing. And I [00:52:00] think that in terms of organizing across difference building solidarity with people... like on the Internet, we can believe that a community is people who share either like an interest or an identity category with us. And that is a community online whereas in real life, community is going to be full of people who are not necessarily like ourselves, who we might not share interests in common with, and we might not share identities in common with, but they actually are the people who are in our spaces in real life, and we actually share many things in common with them that we might not realize because we share a place together, we share a world together and being able to build relationships with people who are different from ourselves is, first of all absolutely necessary as a political strategy if we want to get anything done on the left.But also, it's deeply enriching for our human lives, you know, to be able to meet and talk to people who are not exactly the same, not the same age, not sharing the same politics, like, who are just different from ourselves. So I think it's very important. The other thing is like, the absolute erosion of our [00:53:00] attention span due to social media.I have recently not been on Instagram for, like, a month, and I feel like my brain is, like, damaged, and I'm, like, recovering from a severe damage to my attention span, you know? Like, I wasn't able to read books for years, because I just didn't have an attention span to, like, really keep up with it.It was, like, way harder for me than it used to be when I was younger, you know? Because I have been on the feed that is giving me just five second blips of information and then giving me something else and getting my brain hooked on this, like, dopamine response cycle, which is absolutely horrifying.So, I think it's also really bad for us, like, mentally in terms of our ability to think critically and at length and to, like, pay attention to what we're thinking about. Yeah, Jay: I think that the internet gives people the illusion that things are happening that are not actually happening You know like I don't know you make a a really good post and 2, 000 people like it Wow.Okay. They're all scattered across the f*****g planet. [00:54:00] You know what I mean? It doesn't, you don't know them. It doesn't translate into anything, right? It feels good. And you feel like maybe you're influencing the discourse or something like that, you know but it doesn't translate into anything.And it can give you It can give you the idea that like to be politically active and to be politically successful is to get more people liking your f*****g posts or whatever, you know, but it's not true, right? It also gives people the illusion and Clementine was gesturing at this that a group of people, it's not even really group, it's like a category of people that are like you, is a meaningful sort of group to be in. But let's say like, take like queer people, like LGBTQ community. Okay. And then you extrapolate that to like the whole world, or you can even just extrapolate it to like North America. You know, that's like a scattering of people that are spread out over this enormous geographic area.You couldn't possibly meet them all. Not only because there's so many of them, but also because they're so scattered, right? And you couldn't possibly organize them all and like, and so [00:55:00] on. And, and it's not a community. It's not a community. It is. It's like there's a word I'm looking for and I was, I've been trying to think of it for the past, like five minutes, but I'm just going to say it's like an electorate or something rather than like rather than like a community, you know it's like this, it's this like demographic group that like marketers might market to you or that politicians might try to get to vote for them or something like that. But that's not, that's not what a community is. That's not what a real group is like a real group automatically encompasses difference.Like a, a sort of like authentic human group, like always has differences of like age and occupation and often ethnicity and all these sorts of internal differences that, you know, human groups have always had. Right. And when we try to sort of like make these groups based on identity, which the internet makes very, very, very easy.We like miss. The people that were actually around, like, yeah, but yeah, as for the offline left, I mean, we desperately need to be organizing and in the real world, and I think that[00:56:00] that's not to say that like you can't do anything on the internet.Like the internet obviously has massive advantages for many, many reasons, you know. F**k, there's this like, there's this like image in my head. I'm a very like visual person. I get these like pictures in my head and then I'm like, I have to explain this picture. But it's like the, the thing about like the, the, the groups being this, these kind of like electorates, it's like, if you are this electorate, then you're only choice is to sort of petition your leaders to do something for you. You know what I mean? But like if you are a real and authentic community, you can organize your community to enact something in the real world, you know? And I don't want us to always be in the position of petitioning our leaders, because it presupposes the leaders, it presupposes that we accept their authority, you know, it presupposes that we don't have another option other than to allow a tiny class of parasitical, like rich people to rule everything for us, you know but I would like us to move away from that.Clementine: Yeah. Like just one other thing about that is you'll [00:57:00] see, you know, this gesturing towards actual organizing but through posting, but it's missing the actual organizing piece, which involves building relationships, right? And building trust. And so one of the things you'll, you'll see, like in the last couple of years, I've seen it a few times with different political things that are going on where people will just randomly call for like a mass strike and they'll make a post about it.And they'll be like, on this day, we are calling for people to strike for like this political issue. I saw it for like abortion rights in the United States and I recently saw it for solidarity with Palestine. But it's like, people can't just walk out of their jobs randomly because they will be fired.Like, the point of unions and the point of organized labor is that you have this guarantee where all of these people are taking this risk together in an organized and strategic way and they are trusting each other that they are doing it together and it is their numbers that makes it so that the boss can't just fire them all.And they have strike fund. There's a lot of them and they're [00:58:00] supporting each other to do this and it's organized and they've actually built enough relationship to be like, okay, I trust that my fellow workers are going to do this with me. So, like when I take this risk, it's like the risk is mitigated by the numbers and I know I'm not alone in it.Right. But a social media post cannot produce that. It is not relationship. And so random people reading that, like they're like, "should I just walk out of my job tomorrow?" Like, probably if they do that, they're going to be the only person at their job who's doing that, and they're just going to be fired or reprimanded, best case scenario. And that is not organized at all. And, and so then people are like, "Why aren't you guys walking out of your job? This is not solidarity." And it's like, "you're right. It's not solidarity. Because the solidarity hasn't been built." Like, you have to actually build trust with people to get them to take risks. And if you don't build that trust, and you don't have those actual real relationships, it's not a good idea for people to take those risks because they'll be by themselves taking those risks. Chris: Yeah, begs the question if in order to have solidarity with people elsewhere, does it [00:59:00] have to exist at home first?Clementine: I would say yeah. Absolutely. Jay: And solidarity is kind of meaningless if it's just you. Like it kind of has to be organized, you know, like in some meaningful fashion and that can take place in a small scale or a large scale. But if it was just you feeling solidaristic, like it doesn't, yeah, Clementine: like for example, with the Bangladeshi textile workers, you know. If there was organized labor in North America and say, for example, that like the H&M's were unionized, which I do not think that they are, but if the H& Ms were unionized because, like, the clothing at H&M all comes from Bangladesh, the workers could choose to do a solidarity strike, to strike alongside the Bangladeshi workers, so that the retailers were striking alongside the textile workers, right?And that would be very effective and very cool if that was happening, but in order for that to happen, the retail workers first have to be organized, and they have to have unions, and they actually have to have like an organized labor force here in order to do any kind of meaningful action in [01:00:00] solidarity with the workers in Bangladesh.Chris: Food for thought. Yeah. Thank you both. So my final question. Of the main themes of the pod, one is radical hospitality, which, to me at least, stands as a kind of antidote to industrial hospitality. You know, the systems, the

On this episode, my guest is David Bacon, a California writer and documentary photographer. A former union organizer, today he documents labor, the global economy, war and migration, and the struggle for human rights. His latest book, In the Fields of the North / En los campos del norte (COLEF / UC Press, 2017) includes over 300 photographs and 12 oral histories of farm workers. Other books include The Right to Stay Home and Illegal People, which discuss alternatives to forced migration and the criminalization of migrants. Communities Without Borders includes over 100 photographs and 50 narraatives about transnational migrant communities and The Children of NAFTA is an account of worker resistance on the US/Mexico border in the wake of NAFTA.Show Notes:David's Early YearsLearning about Immigration through UnionsThe Meaning of Being UndocumentedNAFTA and Mexican MigrationThe Source of Corn / MaizeBinational Front of Indigenous Organizations / Frente Indigena de Organizacaions BinacionalesThe Right to Stay HomeAndres Manuel Lopez Obrador (AMLO) CampaignThe Face & History of Immigration in the USAImmigration Reform and AmnestyThe Violence of Fortuna Silver Mines in OaxacaSolidarity, Change and OptimismHomework:The Right to Stay Home: How US Policy Drives Mexican MigrationIn the Fields of the North / En los campos del norteIllegal People: How Globalization Creates Migration and Criminalizes ImmigrantsCommunities without Borders: Images and Voices from the World of MigrationThe Children of NAFTA: Labor Wars on the U.S./Mexico BorderDavid's Twitter AccountDavid's Official WebsiteTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the End of Tourism podcast, David. It's an honor to have you on the pod. To begin, I'd like to ask you where you find yourself today and what the world looks like for you there. David: Well, I live in Berkeley, here in California, and I am sitting in front of my computer screen having just what I've been up to today before talking with you. Chris: Hmm. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for your work. Perhaps I could ask you what drew you to the issues of labor and migration.David: Sure. Well, I come from a kind of left wing union family, so I knew about unions and workers and strikes and things like that from probably since before I can remember. And so I was kind of an activist when I was in high school, got involved in the [00:01:00] student movement in the 1960s at the University of California, got involved in the free speech movement, got tossed out by the university, actually, and wound up going to work after that, really, because I got married, had a daughter, and I got married, had a daughter, and, I needed to get a job and, you know, worked for quite a while as a a printer in the same trade that my father was, had been in went back to night school to learn more of the, of the trade, how to do different parts of it, how to run presses and so forth and then got involved, this is, you know, in the late 60s, early 70s got involved in the movement to support farm workers, really, and I was one of those people, you know, if you're my age, you remember this, if you're younger, you probably don't, but we used to picket supermarkets to try to get them [00:02:00] to stop selling the grapes and the wine and the lettuce that was on strike, and we would stand out in front of Safeway and other supermarkets with our red flags with the black eagle on them, And ask customers, you know, not to go into the store, not to buy the products that farmworkers were on strike against.And I got really interested in. I'm curious about the workers that we were supporting. You know, I grew up in Oakland and so I didn't know anything about farm workers, really. I didn't know anything about rural California, rural areas, didn't speak Spanish didn't know much about Chicano, Latinos.Oakland's a pretty diverse city, but in the area of Oakland where I grew up in you know, in our high school, you know, the students were African American or they were white, and that was a big racial question in, in school when I was in high school. So I grew up not knowing any of these things.[00:03:00] And Because I was involved in, you know, standing out in front of these stores and supporting workers, I, you know, began wondering, who are these workers that we're supporting? And eventually, I went to work for the union. I asked a lawyer friend of mine who was in their legal department if they needed any help, and of course he said yes.I went down to, Oxnard and de Santamaria began working for the union, originally taking statements from workers who had been fired because of their union activity. I didn't know much Spanish, so I had to learn Spanish on the job. Fortunately, you know, the workers were very patient with me and would help me learn, help me correct my still bad pronunciation and bad grammar.And, and I began to learn. And that process has been going on ever since, really. That was a, that was a formative time in my life. It taught me a lot of [00:04:00] things. It taught me about, you know, the culture of. farm workers who were mostly Mexican in those years, but there were still a good number of Filipino workers working in the fields.That eventually led me to the woman I eventually married, my wife, who was the daughter of of immigrants from the Philippines from a farm worker family. So I learned about that culture and I began learning about immigration, which I hadn't really known anything about growing up. Why people come to the U.S., what happens to people here. I, I saw my first immigration raid. When I was an organizer, I later became an organizer for the union as my Spanish got better. And I remember going to talk to a group of workers that I had met with the previous night, who were worked up in palm trees picking dates.And I went down to the date grove, this was in the Coachella Valley, and there was this big green van, and there were the [00:05:00] workers who I'd been talking to the previous night being loaded into the van. I was just You know, really shocked. The van took off. I followed the van all the way down to the Imperial Valley, to El Centro, where the detention center was.Stood outside the center trying to figure out what the hell is going on here. What am I going to do? What's going to happen to these people? And that was sort of an introduction to the meaning of being undocumented, what it meant to people, what could happen. And that made me an immigrant rights activist, which I've also been ever since, too.But also, over time, I got interested in the reasons why people were coming to the U. S. to begin with. You know, what people were finding here when people got here was very, very difficult work, low pay, immigration raids, police harassment, at least, and sometimes worse than that, poverty. You know, Why leave Mexico if this is what you're going to find?[00:06:00] And it also made me curious about the border. And so that also began something that has continued on in all those years since. I eventually went to the border, went to Mexico, began getting interested and involved in Mexican labor politics, supporting unions and workers in Mexico, you know, doing work on the border itself.After the Farm Workers Union, I worked for other unions for A number of years and they were generally reunions where the workers who were trying to join and we were trying to help were immigrants. So the government workers union, the women in the sweatshops sewing clothes or union for factory workers.And so my job was basically to help workers organize and. Organizing a union in the United States is like well, you know, people throw around this word, you know, this phrase class war and class warfare pretty freely, but it is like a war. You know, when [00:07:00] workers get together and they decide they want to change conditions and they want to you know, get the company to, speak to them and to deal with them in an organized way.They really do have to kind of go, go to war or be willing to, for the company to go to war with them. You know, really what people are asking for sometimes is pretty minimal, you know, wage raises or fair treatment at work or a voice at work. You know, you think, you know, what's wrong with that. But generally speaking when employers get faced with workers who want to do that they do everything possible to try and stop them.Including firing people and harassing people, calling them to meetings, threatening people, scaring people. You know, there's a whole industry in this country that consists of union consultants who do nothing but, you know, advise big companies about how to stop workers when they, when they try to organize.So that's what I did for about 20 years. Was help workers to get organized, form a union, get their bus to sit down and talk [00:08:00] to them, go out on strike, do all those kinds of things. And eventually I decided that I wanted to do something else. And I, I was already involved in, you know, starting to take photographs.I would carry a camera and I would take pictures of what we were doing as workers. We would joke about it, kind of. I would tell workers, well, you know, we're going to take some pictures here and you can take them home to your family and show them, you know, that you're really doing what's right here and 20 years from now you'll show your grandkids that, you know, when the time came, you stood up and you did what was right and people would joke with each other about it.And I discovered also that you could use them to get support for what we were doing. You know, we could get an article published in a newspaper somewhere. Some labor newspaper might run an article about us. You might get some money and some help or some food or something. But after a while, you know, I began [00:09:00] realizing that these photographs, they had a value beyond that.And that was that they were documenting this social movement that was taking place among immigrants and, and Latino workers, especially here on the West Coast of people basically trying to. Organize themselves for social justice in a lot of different ways, organizing unions for sure, but also trying to get changes in U.S. immigration laws, immigration policies those people who are citizens and able to vote, registering to vote, political change. You have to remember that if you go back to the 1960s or 1970s, Los Angeles was what we used to call the capital of the open shop. In other words, it was one of the most right wing cities in America.You know, the mayor Sam Yorty was a right wing Republican. The police department had what they called the Red Squad, whose responsibility it was is to go out and to deal with [00:10:00] people that wanted to change anything or to organize and Unions or strikes or belong to left wing political parties or whatever.And today, Los Angeles is one of the most progressive cities in the United States, and it has to do with what happened to those primarily Central American and Mexican and workers of color, women, who over time got organized and changed the politics of Los Angeles. And so, you know, I was really fascinated by it.This process, I was involved in it as an organizer and then later as a somebody taking photographs of it and writing about it that and so that's, that's sort of the transition that I made for the last 30 some odd years. I've worked as a freelance writer and photographer, basically doing the same kind of thing.I look at it as a way of organizing people, really, because the whole purpose of writing the articles and taking the [00:11:00] photographs is to change the way people think, and make it possible for people to understand the world better, and then to act on that understanding, which to me means trying to fight for a more just world, a more just society.And so. That's what, that's the purpose of the photographs, that's the purpose of the writing, is to, is to change the world. I think it's a big tradition in, in this country, in the United States of photography and of journalism that is produced by people who are themselves part of the movements that they are writing about or documenting, and whose purpose it is to sort of help to move forward social movements for social change.Chris: Amen. Some of the stories you were mentioning remind me of my mother who also worked for a labor union most of her life. And I was definitely still very much concerned with the state of affairs. I should [00:12:00] say that you know, I'm incredibly grateful as well to have a man of your stature and experience on the pod here to speak with us your work Has definitely opened my eyes to a lot of things I hadn't seen living here in southern Mexico, in, in Oaxaca.And one of these, these books, which I'd like to touch on a little bit today, is entitled, The Right to Stay Home. how U. S. policy drives Mexican migration. And we're actually at the 10 year anniversary of the publication of this book. So I feel honored to be able to speak with you in this regard about it.And, you know, it's, for me, someone who was a backpacker and a tourist, and then later a resident of this place, of Oaxaca, to come to understand much more deeply the complexities and nuances around migration, and especially in the context of Mexican migration to the United States. [00:13:00] What's left out of the conversation as someone who grew up in urban North America and Toronto, Canada very much on the left in my earlier years, in terms of organizing and, and and protesting, the, the, the dialogues and the conversations always seem to be around the the treatment of migrants once they arrived and, and not necessarily, as you said, why they left in the first place, the places that they left and the consequences to the places that they left.And so I guess to begin, I'm wondering if you could offer our listeners a little bit of background into How that book came to be written and what was the inspiration and driving factors for it? David: The book came to be written to begin with because I began going to Mexico and trying to understand how [00:14:00] the system of migration works in the context of the world that we live in, you know, people call it globalization or globalism, or you could call it imperialism.So I was trying to understand that from the roots of first having been involved with people as migrants once they had arrived here in the U. S. I was trying to understand Well, two things. One was why people were coming, and also what happens to people in the course of coming. In other words, the journey that people make.Especially the border. The border is the big And the border has very important functions in this because it's really the crossing of the border that determines what the social status of a migrant is, whether you have papers or not, whether you're documented or not, which is a huge, [00:15:00] huge, huge distinction.So as a result of that, and as a result of kind of listening to people listening to the movement in Mexico talk, about it, investigating, going to places like Oaxaca. I first wrote a book that tried to look at this as a system, a social system. It's really part of the way capitalism functions on a international or global basis in our era because what it does is it produces Displacement, the changes that are, you take a country like Mexico, and this is what the first book, the first book was called Illegal People.And what it looked at was the imposition on Mexico, for instance, it starts with NAFTA, the free trade agreement. In fact, the first book I ever wrote was about the border and was called The Children of NAFTA, the [00:16:00] North American Free Trade Agreement. But this book Illegal People, what it really tried to do is it tried to look at the ways in which People were displaced in communities like Oaxaca.And of course, for Oaxaca, Oaxaca is a corn growing state. It's a rural state. Most people in Oaxaca still live in villages and small communities. Oaxaca's a big city, and there's some other cities there, but, but most people in Oaxaca are still what you call rural people. And so NAFTA, among the many changes that it imposed on Mexico, one of the most important was that it allowed U. S. corn corporations, Archer Daniels Midland Continental Grain Company other really large corporations to dump corn in Mexico at a price that we were subsidizing through the U. S. Farm Bill, our tax money. In other words, we're, our tax money was being [00:17:00] given to these corporations to lower their cost of production.And that allowed them to go to Mexico and to sell corn at a price that was so low that people who were growing corn in a place like Oaxaca could no longer sell it for a price that would cover the cost of growing it. That had an enormous impact on people in Oaxaca because what it did was it forced people to basically to leave in order to survive.It's not that people were not leaving Oaxaca already before the agreement passed. There were other reasons that were causing the displacement of people in rural communities in Oaxaca. A lot of it had to do with this relationship with the U. S. even then, but certainly NAFTA was like pouring gasoline on all of that.And so three million people was the estimate that in a period of 10 years were displaced as corn farmers in Oaxaca. That's a huge percentage of the population of Oaxaca. [00:18:00] And so people were forced to go elsewhere looking for work. People went, you know, to Mexico City. You know, Mexico City, the metro system, the subway system in Mexico City was built primarily by workers who came from somewhere else.A lot of them from Oaxaca. Who wound up being the low cost labor that the Mexican government used to build a subway system. They went to the border, they became workers in the maquiladoras, in the factories that were producing everything from car parts to TV screens for the U. S. market. And then people began crossing the border and coming to the U.S. as either farm workers in rural areas of California or as low paid workers in urban areas like Los Angeles. So one of the big ironies, I think, of it was that here you had farm work, farmers who were being forced off their land. And remember that these are corn farmers, so [00:19:00] the Domestication of corn happened first in Oaxaca, and the first earliest years of domesticated corn, thousands of years old, have been discovered in archaeological digs in Oaxaca and caves near Oaxaca City to begin with.So here we have people to whom the world really owes corn as a domesticated crop, who are winding up as being wage workers on the farms of corporate U. S. agribusiness corporations in California, Oregon, Washington, eventually all over the United States. That was the migration of Oaxacan people. And so you could sort of see In this, as sort of a prism, what the forces were, what the social forces at work are, in other words, that in the interests of the profits of these big corporations, these trade agreements get negotiated between [00:20:00] governments, okay, our government, the U.S. government negotiates with the Mexican government, but that's like David negotiating with Goliath, or the other way around, rather, you know, The agreements are really imposed. It's not to say that the Mexican government of those years was opposed to it. It was a neoliberal government too, but the power in this negotiation is held by the U.S. government. And so that trade agreement in the interest of making Mexico a profitable place for, you know, Archer Daniels Middleton to do business gets imposed on Mexico. And then as a result of that, people get displaced and they wind up becoming a low wage workforce for other corporations here in here in the U.S. In fact, sometimes they Wind up working for the same corporation Smithfield foods, which is a big producing corporation [00:21:00] went to Mexico. It got control of huge areas of a valley called the Peralta Valley, not that far from Mexico city. And they began. Establishing these huge pork or pig raising facilities.In fact, that's where the swine flu started was because of the concentration of animals in these farms. Again, displacing people out of those communities. And people from the state of Veracruz, where the Perote Valley is located, many of them wound up getting recruited and then going to work in North Carolina at the huge Smithfield Foods Pork Slaughterhouse in Tar Heel, North Carolina.So that sort of tells you a lot about how this system works. It produces displacement. In other words, it produces people who have no alternative but to migrate in order to survive. And those people go through all the things that people have to go through in order to get to the United [00:22:00] States because there are no real visas for this kind of migration.And them wind up being The workforce that is needed by the system here, Smithfield Foods or other corporations like them in order for them to make high profits here. And in the process of doing this, I was developing a a relationship with a very unique organization in Mexico, in Oaxaca, a part of which exists in Oaxaca, called the Frente Indígena de Organizaciones Binacionales, which is the Binational Front of Indigenous Organizations.And this is an organization that was actually started by Oaxaca migrants in the U. S., in Los Angeles, and then expanded both into the Central Valley here in California and then expanded back into Mexico in Baja, California, where there are also big corporate farms where primarily Oaxaca, people from Oaxaca are the workforce, and eventually chapters in Oaxaca itself.[00:23:00] And so I would got to be friends with many people in this organization, and I would go and take photographs at their bi national meetings, they would have meetings in Mexico where people could come together and and talk about their situation. And, you know, I began, obviously, listening to what people were talking about.And, People developed this, I think, very kind of path breaking, unique analysis of migration in which they talked about a dual set of rights that migrants need and migrant communities need in this kind of world. And so, What they said was, on the one hand people need rights as migrants where they go.In other words, people, when they come to the United States, need legal status. People need decent wages, the ability to organize, you know, an end to the kind of discrimination that people are subject to. But, [00:24:00] people also need a second set of rights as well, which is called the right to stay home. And that is the title of the book, The Right to Stay Home.And what that means is that, People need political change and economic and social change in their communities of origin, which makes migration voluntary. So these are communities that are so involved in the process of migration that it would not make any sense to say that migration is bad, because In many cases, these are communities that live on the remittances that are being sent by migrants, by members of people's own families who are living and working in the United States.So the discourse in these meetings was sort of on the order of saying that people have the right to migrate, people have the right to travel, people have the right to leave, but they also have the right to stay home. They have the right to a decent future. A young [00:25:00] person who is growing up in Santiago, Cusco, Oaxaca in the Mixteca region of Oaxaca, for instance, has a right to a future in Oaxaca so that you can make a choice.Do you want to stay and have a decent life for yourself in Oaxaca, or do you want to leave and hopefully have a decent life for you and wherever you go, whether Baja California or California or Washington State? So in order to have a Right to stay home. What has to happen? What do people need? It's kind of a no brainer. People need well high farm prices to begin with. They need the ability to raise corn, tomatoes, Whatever crop it is that they need and sell it at a price that is capable of sustaining those families and communities. People need education.They need healthcare, but people also need political change because the Frente Indígena is a political organization. And so it was fighting [00:26:00] against the domination of Oaxaca by the old PRI, the party of the institutionalized revolution, which had been running Mexico for 70 years, trying to find a government that would begin to push for those kinds of social rights.And that was you know, a very important kind of eye opening for me was to hear people talking about the right to stay home, so much so that I said, you know, we need a book about this. So we're not just describing the system itself, how it works, but we are talking about what are people's responses to it?What do people think should happen here? And this was one of the most important developments of it. And it was not just. The people in Oaxaca, the more I did work on trying to investigate it and document it, there's part of the book, and also this was being done in people's [00:27:00] voices, the main voice in the right to stay home belongs to Rufino Dominguez, who was one of the founders of the Frente Indígena, who was my teacher in this, and so at one point they did knock the PRI out of power in Oaxaca and elected a governor, Gabino Cuei, who turned out to be not as good as people had hoped that he would be, but he was not the PRI.And he appointed Rufino, the head of the Oaxacan Institute for Attention to Migrants. So here was Rufino who had, was a left wing radical who spent his whole life opposing the government in Oaxaca, who then joined it for a while until he could no longer stomach what was going on there and had to leave.But. Pushing for that kind of political change in Oaxaca. There's another part of the book that talks about the miners in Cananea near the border with the United States. And their Effort to try to. win justice from this huge corporation that [00:28:00] was basically intent on destroying their union. And when they were forced out on strike, those miners also had to cross the border to Arizona to become workers in Arizona to survive.Again, you know, you see how the system is working here, but they also were talking about what kind of political change has to happen in Mexico for the right to stay home. to become reality. And that movement in Mexico grew strong enough so that, you know, after The Right to Stay Home was published, some years after, since it was, as you said, 10 years ago that Andrés Manuel López Obrador campaigned.He went all around the country speaking in every little tiny village that Mexico has, practically, in the course of four years. And one of the main things he talked about was the right to alternatives to forced migration. And I was there in Mexico City in the Zócalo when he took office. He finally won it.I don't want to go into all the things that had to [00:29:00] happen for Andrés Manuel López Obrador to win an election and become president of Mexico. But in his, in his inaugural speech as he was being sworn in, he talked about, we are going to make Mexico into a place where Mexicans can be happy living, where you don't have to go to the United States in order to survive, and I think you can talk about the, Things that the Mexican government has not been able to accomplish in the last four or five years.But I think one thing is beyond question and that is that that has been the main direction of the policy of the government of Mexico in that period of time because that's what got him elected. was this idea that, as he said, we are going to reject the liberal, neoliberal hypocrisy of the last six administrations in Mexico, meaning no more trade agreements like NAFTA, no [00:30:00] more opening Mexico up to U.S. corporations to come in and make money and as a result of which everybody's going to have to leave, that there had to be some kind of different direction in Mexico. So, in a way, I think that. Maybe that book, The Right to Stay Home, was like a little grain of sand that joined with other little grains of sand like it in helping to move forward that process of political change, because it happened on really on both sides of the border.Gosh, millions and millions of Mexicans who are living in the United States. So the process of political discussion that goes on about the kind of government Mexicans should have happens not just in Mexico, it happens here too. You know, part of Mexico is here on this side of the border. So you know, the book, and the book actually was published in Spanish and in Mexico as well too.So I think that it talked about things that were very important to people. [00:31:00] At the time, and that people are still debating about what has to happen in order for the right to stay home to be a reality. And I think it's something very important for people in this country to listen to and to think about as well, too, because in all the debates about migration that happen in here in the U.SThere's not a lot of attention that's paid to this whole idea of the two sets of rights, what has to happen. You know, certainly, you know, there are people like Trump and the right wing of the Republican Party that just, you know, never going to talk about anything like this. But even among Democrats, even in the Biden administration, you know, it's really too much about how to manage the border, you know, which basically boils down to how many people are we going to detain and deport.Rather than thinking about what kind of [00:32:00] world do we want to live in. Therefore, what kind of places migration going to have in it? ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Chris: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's it's been fascinating reading and rereading this book in, in, in part to be able to give voice to not just migrants and not just migration issues in the places that people move to or migrate to, but also in the places that they, that they leave behind and the voices of the people that they leave behind.And you know, I think for. Many North Americans, especially those who are first or second generation citizens of those countries of Anglo North America, of Canada and the United States, that these are, these are the stories these are the voices that that maybe they haven't heard of in their own families as well.And so, you know, you started to mention a little bit about this. the kind of superficiality, perhaps, if I'm, if I can say it in that, in those terms, of the [00:33:00] political conversation around migration in the United States, in Canada, and perhaps even in Mexico. And so I'd like to ask you about the reception and perhaps the fallout Once the book was published, and I'm curious how the declaration to the right to stay home or the right to not migrate has altered at all the political or social social landscape in rural Mexico, you know, at least in terms of the people that you know in these places.And also if there was any response, any, any ground shaking movements as a result of the book coming out among activists in the United States. David: Well, I think that the book contributed to an important change. In the immigrant rights movement in the United States here, because, you know, having participated in that movement as an activist [00:34:00] for, gosh, 40 some odd years now, maybe more, Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986 with the so called amnesty law.Which not only gave amnesty to undocumented people, but also made it illegal for undocumented people to work in the United States after that and started the whole process of the border militarization. In fact, you know, the negative parts of that bill were so bad that many people like myself opposed the bill, even if it had amnesty in it, saying that it was not a this was not a good deal.And I think that over time. You know, history has proven that we were right not that amnesty was unimportant and not worth fighting for, but that the price that we paid turned out to be much higher than people were willing to give it credit for, you know, at the time. But what was also really missing from that debate, for instance, in [00:35:00] those years, was any sense that we had to really deal with and think about the causes of migration and the roots of migration, the displacement.It was really all about the status of people when they were here. You know, should it be legal or illegal for people to work? Should people get papers or should people not get papers? And that was a very limiting Conversation, because what really, what it really meant was that it could not acknowledge the fact that the migration from Mexico is not going to stop.For instance, the, in that, in that bill, the, the qualifying date for amnesty was January 1st, 1982, meaning. That if you came before that date, you could apply for the amnesty and get legalization, and if you came after that date, you couldn't get it. For people migrating from [00:36:00] Oaxaca, for instance, almost everybody came after.So all the Oaxacans who came to the United States, hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people really hardly anybody. Qualified for amnesty because of that bill, which is one reason why legal status is such an enormous question for the Oaxacan community here in the U. S. So it, the, the discussion of that bill didn't acknowledge that and also by setting that date, it was, I think, very cynical because Mexico had what was called the Peso Shock in 1982, where the economic crisis in Mexico got so bad that Mexico had to devalue its currency.And what that meant was that thousands, hundreds of thousands of people in Mexico lost their jobs and had to come to the United States. And by setting that date, January 1st of that year, what you were really saying is, none of those people are going to qualify for amnesty. So they were [00:37:00] already here. But also it didn't acknowledge that, you know, in the, that, that bill set up a a commission to study the causes of migration, supposedly.And that commission came back and recommended the negotiation of a trade agreement between the U. S. and Mexico. And it said, well, in the short run, maybe this would result in the displacement of a lot of people, but in the long run, it would lead to the economic development of Mexico, and then people would have jobs and they wouldn't have to come here.Well, that was another very, very cynical kind of thing, because the negotiations of NAFTA started not long after the report of that commission, and in fact, NAFTA did lead to the displacement of millions of people in Mexico. There were four and a half million migrants from Mexico living in the U. S.when NAFTA went into effect and by 2010 it was [00:38:00] 12 and a half million people. So an enormous increase in people and the rise in Mexican living standards. Never happened. Well, that's not true. When López Obrador finally came into office he began taking measures to raise wages and raise the living standards in Mexico, which previous administrations had resisted bitterly because they wanted to attract investment.And things have started to improve economically for workers and farmers in Mexico a little bit. But up until then, so being unable to face the roots of migration and its connections to corporate America and the way our government was on the one hand producing migration or doing things to produce migration on the other hand making The status of migrants, illegal criminalizing it here.It was a really, a very difficult debate for people in [00:39:00] the immigrant rights movement. As a result, a lot of organizations said, well, MSD, we need MSD. Let's just forget about a lot of other stuff. Let's just get down to seat on what we paid a really bad price for it. Today I think there is a lot more discussion in the immigrant rights movement about what happens in Mexico and Central America in particular that causes people to come to the United States.I think still there's not enough of a willingness to deal with the economic part of it. the poverty. So these days, the way it gets dealt with is mostly by talking about the violence in Honduras. For instance, San Pedro Sula, which is called the murder capital of the world. You know, I wrote a whole article about how did San Pedro Sula become such a violent place to begin with?And what did it have to do with U. [00:40:00] S. companies going and growing bananas in Honduras? But in any case it gets put down, I think too much to violence, to the exclusion of the causes of the violence. What is the, what is the root cause of violence in Central American countries? The Civil War in El Salvador was fought about who was fighting on what side, what kind of changes were people proposing.The more you unpeel it, the more you look at it, the more you see that this is really, again, about the economic and political relationship between the U. S. and China. Those countries. And so I think that books like Illegal People, like The Right to Stay Home, played a role in trying to get us to look more at this as a whole system, what produces migration, and then criminalizes migrants here.I think that it's a very [00:41:00] limited accomplishment. Because we still have an extremely unjust immigration system. You know, we all hated Trump and the detention centers and, and his racist orders. But the reality is, is that we have more people crossing the border this last year than any other previous time in our history.And we have thousands and thousands of people living in detention. In the United States in detention centers and in detention centers on the Mexican side of the border. And this is under a democratic administration. So, I think that we have to be real about how limited our impact has been up to now.But, having said that, I think it is still a big advance for us to be able to talk. in this country, in the United States, about the roots of migration, and also be able to reach out to organizations and people and communities in Mexico and talk about, well, [00:42:00] okay, what is our, what should our relationship be?Well, how do we work together? How are we going to be able to try and change this system together? I think those efforts are kind of only starting, really. I don't think there's nearly enough of it, but I think that's the future. That's where the change is going to come from. Chris: And I can't stress enough, you know, how devoid of complexity and nuance most any political conversation has these days, and that most people don't go looking for it, in part because You know, most people haven't been taught.So, you mentioned a little bit earlier, as you wrote in, in your book, The Right to Stay Home, about the consequences of mining companies, as an example, in, in Mexico. Foreign owned mining corporations. And Here in Oaxaca, it's very well known that these corporations undertake geological testing without the [00:43:00] consent of communities, that they lie to the communities about concessions when trying to push their way into the territory, and then sponsor community violence by dividing the people against each other through bribery, corruption.Intimidation, threats, and sometimes assassination. And so, I'm curious, first, if you could offer a little bit more of what you've seen in this regard, and secondly, why do you think that in this example that, you know, Canadians, in the context of the one particular mine here in the Central Valleys of Oaxaca, is a Canadian owned mine, why they have no idea that this is happening on foreign soil in their names?You David: know, I wrote a long article about San Jose del Progreso in the Vice Centrales in, in Oaxaca, and Fortuna Mine there, which is a Canadian, Canadian company. And I think this is [00:44:00] another way of seeing what this kind of, just to use shorthand, this free trade arrangement between the US, Canada and Mexico, what it really means for people on the ground.Mexico in previous administrations changed this mining law so that it became possible. And the purpose of to make it possible for foreign corporation to get a mining concession anywhere in Mexico and develop a mine without having to get the consent of the people who live in the community around it.Basically saying that, you know the Mexican government was entitled to sell off these concessions regardless of what the people there thought about it. And so the purpose of this was to, again, attract foreign investment into Mexico. This is part of the neoliberal policy that says [00:45:00] that the economic development policy of Mexico should be to sell pieces of Mexico to foreign investors, to foreign corporations.And supposedly this money is going to make life better. For people in Mexico well, first of all, it's a very corrupt system, so the selling of mining concessions involves, you know, millions and millions of dollars that wind up in the pockets of those people who grant the concessions. So it was a source of enormous corruption in the Mexican government in granting those concessions and in passing that change in the law to begin with.And then in fighting for changes in the legal system, the free trade set up, those mining corporations could then, basically, it gave them not only a kind of impunity against communities that protested about it, but in which they could even sue the Mexican government. If the Mexican government tried to stand in the way and say, well, you [00:46:00] can't develop the mine, then the mine could sue the Mexican government and say, well, you deprived us of potential profits and you owe us millions of dollars.And there were decisions like the metal cloud decision that allowed for this kind of thing to happen. So what this meant is on the ground, you have mining mining concessions sold and mines being developed all over Mexico. In the face of local opposition, and the mine in San Jose de Progreso is a really good example of that, where you have a Canadian company that comes in and says, okay, we are going to, in fact, they weren't the originators of the mine, they basically bought a mine that had been played out by previous owner.And so we are going to dump a lot of money into this and we are going to make it a producing mine and the impact on the community. We don't really care. And so the impact is really enormous. You know these are open pit mines. They're a scar on the land. They [00:47:00] contaminate the water, the aquifer, so that these farming communities can no longer support themselves in the same way.In order to develop the mine, what they do is they divide the communities. And so, as you said, in San Jose de Progreso, they bought off the town's, the town's government who basically gave the company permission to do whatever it wanted to in spite of local opposition. Then when local opposition got organized to, to oppose it, the company cooperated with the with the local leaders that it had bought off to basically go after those leaders in a very violent way.So, Bernardo Vazquez. who had was from this community. He had actually gone to the United States and become a farm worker in Petaluma, in California. And then seeing what was happening in his community, went back to San Jose de [00:48:00] Progreso and to and began leading the opposition. And he was then ambushed and assassinated.Other people in his, around him were also killed, and then the violence went both ways. People on the other side got killed. And so this whole community became a warring camp, camps against each other. You know, I remember when I visited there, there are two taxi companies in this community. There's a taxi company that's associated with the People who are pro mine and the taxi company is associated with people who are against it.And you better not get into the wrong taxi because you could, some terrible things could happen to you. I took pictures of these threats that were spray painted on the walls of, some of the irrigation canals there, Bernardo Vasquez, your time has come, you know that was before he was assassinated.A lot of the people who work in the mine come from somewhere else, some of them from Canada[00:49:00] but it takes a few of the jobs in hand somehow. to certain people in the community there as a way of buying them off and giving them a stake in the continuation of the mine. And so what happens is that you have a community that's a continuing, a continuous war with itself.And this happens all over Mexico. In fact, it's not just Mexico, this is happening in El Salvador, it's happening in Guatemala, and actually mostly by Canadian companies. So you ask, do people in Canada know about this? I think there are some journalists like Dawn Bailey who have Canadian journalists who have tried to write about it, and tried to make people in Canada aware of it.I don't think that most people in Canada have the faintest idea of what those corporations are doing, and that's because I think the corporate media in Canada has very little interest in showing that, partly because, you know, they have the same basic set of economic interests that the mining corporations themselves do.[00:50:00] Probably share, same shareholders, who knows? In any case That's something that could happen and that should happen if people in Canada became more aware of what these companies were doing and then began taking action in Canada to try to restrict them. I think it would have a big impact on the ability of these communities in Oaxaca to survive.I think that San Jose the Progresso is going to be a war with itself and this continuing political violence is going to happen. Until the company, basically until the company leaves, really. I don't see any other solution, I don't see how the mine can continue operating there under any ownership and not have this war taking place there.So, but I think that the way to get that company to leave is for people in Canada to take some action in cooperation and in solidarity with the people in that [00:51:00] community. So, maybe by Organizing delegations from Vancouver or Toronto down to San Jose del Progreso would be a way of helping that to develop.That's possibly something that might happen, but basically you need that relationship in order, I think, in order to stop this from happening. Chris: Hmm. Thank you. Yeah, and you know, of course it just ends up contributing to migration, right, and exile, displacement within those communities. And and so I'm curious, what do you think the right to stay home or the right to not migrate can offer us as modern people, as citizens or migrants in the context of the current crises and perhaps the crises to come?You know, you mentioned that Immigration the numbers, the number of people coming into the United States over the last year has just been unprecedented. The number of migrants [00:52:00] flowing through Oaxaca, for example, in Southern Mexico right now is unprecedented and it really seems, you know, like.not just my opinion, but in terms of statistics and predictions and all of these things, that it's only going to get more unprecedented. So I'm curious what you might, what you might think that this, this declaration, the right to stay home or the right to not migrate, might offer us going forward. David: Well, I think it offers us something to fight for.That it gives us a vision of what a future could and should look like in the communities where displacement is taking place. In San Jose de Progreso, for instance, the right to stay home means a community that's not at war with itself, which means that the mining operation has to end. But, Ending the mining operation doesn't necessarily mean that people are [00:53:00] going to have an educational system or a health care system that's capable of meeting their needs.So you need political change in Oaxaca, San Jose de Progreso, and Mexico in general, that is able to deliver those things. For people. I think we could take that same thing and and look at people coming from Venezuela. There are a lot of Venezuelan migrants who are crossing Mexico coming to the U.S. border. On the one hand, the U. S. government is sort of a little bit more friendly. to Venezuelan migrants, although it's still doing whatever it can at the border to try to keep people out. Because, you know, this gets used in the media in the U. S. as a way of saying, well, this is the proof that the socialist government in Venezuela is incompetent and corrupt and ought to be removed, which has been U.S. policy for a long time. But in reality, the economic problems in [00:54:00] Venezuela would certainly be a lot less if Venezuela wasn't subject to the U. S. sanctions regime, which is basically sought to strangle the Venezuelan economy. And so the people who are leaving Venezuela, whether they're middle class people who are, you know, fed up with the problems of Caracas or whether they're poor people who have you know, have to migrate in order to survive those are due to U.S. policy again. So really, the right to stay home means in the United States that people in the United States, progressive people especially, have to seriously take a look at what the impact of U. S. policies are on the people that are being subjected to them, and to begin with, cause no harm.That would be a good starting place to stop those policies that are actively producing migration. You know, the people who drowned in the Mediterranean, those 600 people who [00:55:00] drowned in that horrible boating accident, who were they? A lot of them were Afghans. A lot of them were Iraqis. Why were they leaving?What were they doing on that boat? They were the product of that U. S. war. Now, I was a very active, you know, opponent of, of the war. I went to Iraq twice to try to make connections with trade unionists and other people in Iraq who were trying to fight for kind of a progressive nationalist solution to the economic problems of Iraq in the wake of the occupation to end the occupation.But you know, that's kind of what we need. We need to take responsibility for the impact of what this government has done. When we take a look at what the, what is going to happen to the people of Palestine and Gaza, [00:56:00] Under the bombardment, you know, if people were able to leave Gaza, there would be literally hundreds of thousands of people going wherever they could.And the Middle East simply in order to get out from under the Israeli bombs. And those bombs are coming from where? They're coming from the United States, that military aid package. You know, you cannot have a military policy and a military aid package the way the U. S. passes them without its having enormous impacts on migration, on the displacement of people, and at the same time it also Produces impacts here in the U.S. that we also need to take a look at and see what the relationship are. You know, people migrate in the U. S. as well, too. We have factories to close when Detroit stopped being an [00:57:00] auto manufacturing center and the Factories in Detroit closed, the car factories, thousands and thousands and thousands of auto workers became migrants in the U.S., going from city to city to city, looking for. So the price of the economic crisis that exists for us isn't felt just by people in Mexico or Palestine or Iraq. It's felt here in the United States and in Canada too. These problems They require a political solution, you know, they require us to organize ourselves in a way that is strong enough to force political change on our government here, so that it takes responsibility for the past devastation.And the past displacement and also stops doing the things that are going to keep on causing it in the future. And then I think we can think about kind of repairing the world. I think we have to repair the world, too, after this. But the first thing we have [00:58:00] to do is we have to stop hurting it. We have to stop the damage, and that means having enough political courage and enough political power to make our government do that.That's a tall order. That's a tall order. I don't think it's something from today to tomorrow. But it's a long process. You know, I'm a, I grew up during the anti Vietnam War movement and the civil rights movement, and I saw this country at a time when it was possible and when we did it. So I'm the optimist.I believe that it's within our power to do this. But looking at where we are right now, I think we have a long way to go. And so, you know, if what I do contributes is granito de arena to it, you know, a lo mejor. Chris: Thank you so much, David. Yeah, it's definitely really, really important to hear words such as yours in a time of deep nihilism.[00:59:00] And, and also the absence and I think the disregard of, of Elder Voices in our midst and in our movements. So, I deeply appreciate your willingness to speak with me and, and to our listeners today. And just finally, before we depart, how might our listeners find out more about your work?How might they purchase your books? David: I have a blog and a lot of what I write and the pictures that I take are up there and I put them up there pretty regularly. And so the way to find it is to Google my name, David Bacon, and the blog is called The Reality Check. And so if you Google that together, you'll find it and that's how you can connect.Chris: Thank you so much, David. David: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

If you want to know the 5 Most Common Recovery Roadblocks with Chris Tronsdon (an incredible anxiety and OCD therapist), you are in the right place. Today Chris and I will go over the 5 Most common anxiety, depression, & OCD roadblocks and give you 6 highly effective treatment strategies you can use today.  Kimberley: Welcome everybody. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen here with us today. Thank you for coming, Chris. Chris: Yes, Kim, thanks for having me. I'm super excited about being here today and just about this topic. Kimberley: Yes. So, for those of you who haven't attended one of the IOCDF Southern California conferences, we had them in Southern California. We have presented on this exact topic, and it was so well received that we wanted to make sure that we were spreading it out to all the folks that couldn't come.  You and I spoke about the five most common anxiety & OCD treatment roadblocks, and then we gave six strategic solutions. But today, we're actually broadening it because it applies to so many people. We're talking about the five most common anxiety treatment roadblocks, with still six solutions and six strategies they can use. Thank you for coming on because it was such a powerful presentation. Chris: No, I agree. I mean, we had standing room only, and people really came up to us afterwards and just said how impactful it was. And then we actually redid it at the International OCD Foundation, and it was one of the best-attended talks at the event. And then we got a lot of good feedback, and people kept messaging me like, “I want to hear it. I couldn't go to the conference.” I'd play clips for my group, and they're like, “When is it going to be a podcast?” I was like, “I'll ask Kim.” I'm glad you said yes because I do believe for anybody going through any mental health condition, this list is bound, and I think the solutions will really be something that can be a game changer in their recovery. Kimberley: Absolutely, absolutely. I love it mostly because, and we're going to get straight into these five roadblocks, they're really about mindset and going into recovery. I think it's something we're not talking about a lot. We're talking about a lot of treatment, a lot of skills, and tools, but the strategies and understanding those roadblocks can be so important. Chris: Yeah. I did a talk for a support group. They had asked me to come and speak, and I just got this idea to talk about mindset. I did this presentation on mindset, and people were like, “Nobody's talking about it.” In the back of my head, I'm like, “Kim and I did.” But we're the only ones. Because I do think so many people get the tools, right? The CBT tools, they get the ERP tools, the mindfulness edition, and people really find the tools that work for them. But when I really think of my own personal recovery with multiple mental health diagnoses, it was always about mindset. And that's what I like about our talk today. It's universal for anyone going through any mental health condition, anxiety base, and it's that mindset that I think leads to recovery. It shouldn't be the other way around. The tools are great, but the mindset needs to be there. Kimberley: Yeah. We are specifically speaking to the folks who are burnt out, feeling overwhelmed, feeling a lack of hope of recovery. They really need a kickstart, because that was actually the big title of the presentation. It was really addressing those who are just exhausted with the process and need a little bit of a strategy and mindset shift. Chris: Yeah. I don't want to compare, but I broke my ankle when I was hiking in Hawaii, and I have two autoimmune diseases. Although those ailments have caused problems, especially the autoimmune, when I think back to my mental health journey, that always wore me out more because it's with you all the time, 24/7. It's your mental health. When my autoimmune diseases act up, I'm exhausted, I'm burnt out, but it's temporary. Or my ankle, when it acts up, I have heating pads, I have things I can do, but your brain is with you 24/7. I do believe that's why a lot of people resonate with this messaging—they are exhausted. They're busting their butt in treatment, but they're tired and hitting roadblocks. And that's why this talk really came about. Kimberley: Yeah, exactly. All right, let's get into it here in a second. I just want to give one metaphor with that. I once had a client many years ago give the metaphor. She said, “I feel like I'm running a marathon and my whole family are standing on the out, like on the sidelines, and they're all clapping, but I'm just like faceplant down in the middle of the road.” She's like, “I'm trying to get up, I'm trying to get up, and everyone's telling me, ‘Come on, you can do it.' It's so hard because you're so exhausted and you've already run a whole bunch of miles.” And so I really think about that kind of metaphor for today. If people are feeling that way, hopefully they can take away some amazing nuggets of information.  Chris: Absolutely. That's a good visual. Faceplant. Kimberley: It was such a great and powerful visual because then I understood this client's experience. Like, “Oh, okay. You're really tired. You're really exhausted.” ROADBLOCK #1: YOU BEAT YOURSELF UP! Okay, let's get into it. So, I'm going to go first because the number one roadblock we talked about, not that these are in any particular order, but the one we came up first was that you beat yourself up. This is a major roadblock to recovery for so many disorders. You beat yourself up for having the disorder. You beat yourself up for not coping with it as well as you could. You beat yourself up if you have OCD for having these intrusive thoughts that you would never want to have. Or you're beating yourself up because you don't have motivation because you have, let's say, some coexisting depression.  The important thing to know there is, while beating yourself up feels productive, it might feel like you're motivating yourself, or you may feel like you deserve it. It actually only makes it harder. It only makes it feel like you've got this additional thing. Again, a lot of my patients—let's use the marathon example—might yell at themselves the whole way through the marathon, but it's not a really great experience if you're doing that, and it takes a lot of energy.  SOLUTION #1: SELF-COMPASSION So what we offered here as a strategic solution is self-compassion—trying to motivate and encourage yourself using kindness. If you're going through a hard day, maybe, just if you've never tried this before, trial what it would be like to encourage yourself with kind words or asking for support, asking for help so that you're not burning all that extra energy, making it so much harder on yourself, increasing your suffering. Because I often say to patients, the more you suffer, the more you actually deserve self-compassion. It's not the other way around. It's not that the more you suffer, the less you deserve it. Do you have any thoughts on that, Chris? Chris: Oh yeah. I would say I see that across the board with my clients, this harshness, and there's this good intention behind it, this idea that if I can just bully myself into recovery. I always try to remind clients that anxiety-based disorders, it's a part of our bodies as well. Our brain is a part of our body, just like our arm, our tibia, our leg, all these other bones, but there's a lack of self-empathy that we have for ourselves, as if it's something that we're choosing to do. Someone with a broken leg doesn't wake up in the morning and get mad at themselves that their leg is still broken. They have understanding, and they're working on their exercises to heal. It's the same with these disorders.  So, the reason I love self-compassion is when we go and step in to help one of our friends, we use a certain tone, we use certain words, we tap into their strengths, we use encouragement because we know that method is going to be what boosts them up and helps them get through that rough patch. But for some reason, when it's ourselves, we completely abandon everything we know that's supportive, and we talk to ourselves in a way that I almost picture like a really negative boot camp instructor, like in the military, just yelling and screaming into submission. The other thing is when we're beating ourselves up like that, we're more likely to tap into our unhelpful habits. We're more likely to shut down and isolate, which we see a lot in BDD, social anxiety, et cetera. But that self-compassion isn't like a fake pop culture support. It's really tapping into meeting yourself where you're at, giving yourself some understanding, and tapping into the strategies that have worked in the past when you're in a low moment.  I know sometimes people are like, “I don't know how to do that,” but you're doing it to everybody else in your life. Now it's time to give yourself that same self-compassion that you've been giving to everybody important to you. Kimberley: Yeah, and we actually have a few episodes on Your Anxiety Toolkit on exactly how to embrace self-compassion, like how that might actually look. So, if people are really needing more information there, I can add in the show notes some links to some resources there as well.  ROADBLOCK #2: THERE WILL BE HARD DAYS  Okay. Now, Chris, can you tell us about the second most common or another common anxiety roadblock around this idea that there will be hard days? Chris: There's always these great images if you Google about what people think recovery will look like versus what recovery looks like. I love those images because there is this idea. We see a lot of perfectionism in anxiety disorders. In OCD, we see perfectionism. So, this idea of, like, I should be here and I should easily scoot to the end. It's not going to be like that; it's bumpy, it's ups and downs. We know so much factors into or impact how our mental health disorder shows up. We can't always control our triggers. Sometimes if we haven't slept well or there's a lot of change in our life, we could have more anxiety. So, it's going to ebb and flow.  So, when we have this fixed mindset of like, it has to be perfect, there has to be absolutely no bumps on the road, no turbulence, we're going to set ourselves up for failure because the day we have a hard day, we want to completely shut down. So I really believe, in this case, the solution is thinking bigger. If you're thinking day to day, sometimes if you're too in it, you're dealing with depression, you're really feeling bad, you skipped school because you have a presentation, social anxiety is acting up. You think bigger picture. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Why have I sought out treatment? Listen to this podcast. What am I trying to accomplish?  SOLUTION #2: KNOW YOUR WHY I know for me in my own recovery, knowing my why was so important. There were certain things in my life that I found important to achieve, and I kept that as the figurative carrot in front of the mule to get me to go. So, that way, if I had a rough day, I thought bigger picture. What do I need to do today to make sure that I meet my goals? And so, I believe everybody needs to know their why.  Now, it doesn't have to be grandiose. Some people want to build a school and teach kids in underprivileged countries. Amazing why. But other people are sometimes like, “I just want to be able to make my own choices today and not feel like I base them out of anxiety.” There's no right or wrong why, but if you can know what beacon you're going to, it really helps you get through those hard days.  What about for you? When we talk about this, what comes up for you? Kimberley: Well, I think that for me personally, the why is a really important mindset shift because often I can get to this sort of, like you said, perfectionistic why. Like, the goal is to have no anxiety, or the goal is to have no bad days. We see on social media these very relaxed people who just seem to go with the flow, and that's your goal. But I have to often with myself do a little reality check and go, “Okay, are you doing recovery to get there? Because that goal might be setting you up for constant disappointment and failure. That mightn't be your genetic makeup.”  I'm never going to be like the go-with-the-flow Kimberley. That's just not who I am. But if I can instead shift it to the why of like, what do I value? What are the things I want to be able to do despite having anxiety in my life? Or, despite having a hard day, like you said, how do I want that to look? And once I can get to that imagery, then I have a really clear picture. So, when I do have a bad day, it doesn't feel so defeating, like what's the point I give up, because the goal was realistic. Chris: For me, a big part of my why in recovery, once I started getting into a place where I was managing the disorders I was dealing with—OCD, body dysmorphic disorder, I had a lot of generalized anxiety, and major depressive disorder—I was like, “I need to give back. There's not people my age talking about this. There's not enough treatment providers.” There was somewhere, like in the middle of my treatment, that I was like, “I don't know how I'm going to advocate. I don't know what that's going to look like, but I have to give back.” And so, on those hard days when I would normally want to just like, “Well, I don't care that it's noon, I'm shutting it down, I'm going into my bed, I'm just going to sleep the rest of the day,” reminding myself like there's people out there suffering that can't find providers, that can't find treatment, may not even know they have these disorders. I have to be one of the voices in the community that really advocates and gets people education and resources. And so, I didn't let myself get in bed. I looked at the day as quarters. Okay, the morning and the afternoon's a little rough, but I still have evening and night. Let me turn it around. I have to go because I have this big goal, this ambitious dream. I really want to do it. So that bigger why kept me just on track to push through hard days. ROADBLOCK #3: YOU RUN OUT OF STAMINA Kimberley: Amazing. I love that so much. All right. The third roadblock that we see is that people run out of stamina. I actually think this is one that really ties into what we were just talking about. Imagine we're running a marathon. If you're sprinting for the first 20 miles, you probably won't finish the race. Or even if you sprint the first two miles, you probably won't finish the marathon.  One of the things is—and actually, I'll go straight to the strategy and the thing we want you to practice—we have to learn to pace ourselves throughout recovery. As I said, if you sprint the first few miles, you will fall flat on your face. You're already dealing with so much. As you said, having a mental health struggle is the most exhausting thing that I've ever been through. It requires such of your attention. It requires such restraint from not engaging in it and doing the treatment and using the tools. It's a lot of work, and I encourage and congratulate anyone who's trying. The fact that you're trying and you're experimenting with what works and what doesn't, and you're following your homework of your clinician or the workbook that you've used—that's huge. But pacing yourself is so important. So, what might that look like? Often, people, students of mine from CBT School, will say, “I go all out. I do a whole day of exposures and I practice response prevention, and I just go so hard that the next day I am wiped. I can't get out of bed. I don't want to do it anymore. It was way too much. I flooded myself with anxiety.” So, that's one way I think that it shows up. I'll often say, “Okay, let's not beat yourself up for that.” We'll just use that as data that that pace didn't work. We want to find a rhythm and a pace that allow you to recover. It's sort of like this teeter-totter. We call it in Australia a seesaw. You want to do the work, but not to the degree where you faceplant down on the concrete. We want to find that balance.  I know for me, when I was recovering from postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome, which is a chronic illness that I had, it was so hard because the steps to recovery was exercise, but it was like literally walking to the corner and back first, and then walking half a block, and then walking three-quarters of a block, and then having my husband pick me up, then walking one block. And that's all I was able to do without completely faceplanting the next day, literally and figuratively.  My mind kept saying to me, “You should be able to go faster. Everybody else is going faster. Everyone else can walk a mile or a block. So you should be able to.” And so, I would push myself too hard, and then I'd have to start all over again because I was comparing myself to someone who was not in my position.  SOLUTION #3: PACE YOURSELF So, try to find a pace that works for you, and do not compare your pace with me or Chris or someone in your support group, or someone you see on social media. You have to find and test a pace that works for you. Do you have any thoughts, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I would say in this one, and you alluded to it, that comparison, that is going to get you in this roadblock because you're going to be looking to your left and your right. Why is that person my age working and I'm not? It's not always comparing yourself. Sometimes, like you said, it is people in your support group. It's people that you see advocating for the disorder you may have. But sometimes people even look at celebrities or they'll look at friends from college, and can I do that? The comparison never motivates you, it never boosts you; it just makes you feel less than. That's why one of my favorite quotes is, “Chase the dream, not the competition.” It's really finding a timeline that works best for you.  I get why people have this roadblock. As somebody who's lived through multiple mental health disorder diagnoses, it's like, once we find the treatment, we want to escalate to the finish line, and we'll push ourselves in treatment sometimes too much. And then we have one of those days where we can't even get out of bed because we're just beat up, we're exhausted, and it's counterproductive.  I wanted to add one thing too. The recovery part may not even be what you're doing with your clinician in a session that you are not pacing yourself with. My biggest pacing problem was after recovery, not that the disorders magically went away, they were in remission, I was working on doing great, but it was like, I went to martial arts, tennis, learned Spanish, started volunteering at an animal shelter, went back to school, got a job, started dating. It was so much. Because I felt like I was behind, I needed to push myself.  The problem that started to happen was I was focusing less on the enjoyable process of dating or getting a job, or going back to school. I was so fixated on the finish line. “I need to be there, I need to be there. What's next? What's next?” I got burnt out from that, and I was not enjoying anything I was doing.  So, I would say even after you're managing your disorder, be careful about not pacing yourself, even in that recovery process of getting back into the lifestyle that you want. Kimberley: Yeah, absolutely. I would add too, just as a side point, anyone who is managing a mental health issue or an anxiety disorder, we do also have to fill our cup with the things that fill our hearts. I know that sounds very cliche and silly, but in order to pace ourselves and to have the motivation and to use the skills, we do have to find a balance of not just doing all the hard things, but making sure you schedule time to rest and eat and drink and see friends if that fills your cup, or read if that fills your cup. So, I think it's also finding a rhythm and a balance of the things that fill your cup and identifying that, yes, recovery is hard. It will deplete your stores of energy. So, finding things that fill that cup for you is important.   Chris: Well, you just made a good point too. In my recovery, all those things you mentioned, I thought of those as like weakness, like I just wasted an hour reading. Sometimes even with friends. That one, not as much, because I saw value in friendship. But if I just watched a movie or relaxed, or even just hung out with friends, it felt like a waste. I'm like, “How dare I am behind everybody else? I should be working. I should be this. I should move up.” A lot of should statements, a lot of perfectionist expectations of myself.  So, the goal for me or the treatment for me wasn't to then go to the other extreme and just give up everything; it was really to ask myself, like you said, how can I fill my cup in ways that are important and see value and getting a breakfast burrito with a friend and talking for three hours and not thinking like, “Oh, I should have been this because I got to get my degree.” I'm glad that you brought that up. I always think of like we're overflowing our cup with mental health conditions. We have to be able to have those offsets that drain the cup so we have a healthy balance. So, a great point. ROADBLOCK #4: NOT OWNING YOUR RECOVERY Kimberley: I agree. So important. Would you tell us about owning your recovery? Because you have a really great story with this. Chris: Yeah. People ask me all the time how I got better. A lot of people with body dysmorphic disorder struggle to get better. Obviously, we know that with obsessive-compulsive disorder, major depressive disorder, et cetera. So, a lot of people will ask sometimes, and I always say to them, if I had to come up with one thing, it was because I made my mental health recovery number one. I felt that it was like the platform that I was building my whole life on. I'm so bad with the-- what is it? The house, the-- I'm not a builder.  Kimberley: Like the foundation. Chris: Thank you. Clearly, I'm not going to be making tools tomorrow or making things with tools. But yeah, like a house has to have a nice foundation. You would never build a house on a rocky side of the mountain. And so, I had to give up a lot, like most of us do, as we start to get worse. I became housebound and I dropped out of college, and I gave up a job. I was working in the entertainment industry, and I really enjoyed it. I was going to film school, and I was happy. I had to give all that up because I couldn't even leave my house because of the disorder.  SOLUTION #5: MAKE YOUR RECOVERY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING So, when I was going to treatment and I was really starting to see it work, I was clear to that finish line of what I needed to do. So I made it the most important thing. It wasn't just me; it was my support system. My treatment was about a four-hour round trip from my house, so my mom and I would meet up every day. We drive up to LA. I go to my OCD therapist, and I'd go to my psychiatrist and then my BDD therapist and support group, and then come home. There's times I was exhausted, I wanted to give up, I was over it, but I never ever, ever put it to number two or three. I almost had this top three list in my head, and number one was always my recovery. My mom too, I mean, when she talks, she'll always say it's the most important thing. If my job was going to fire me because I couldn't come in because I had to take my kid on Wednesdays to treatment, I was going to get fired and find a new job. We just had to make this important.   As I was getting better, there were certain opportunities that came back to me from my jobs or from school. My therapist and I and my mom just decided, “Let's hold off on this. Let's really, really put effort into the treatment. You're doing so well.” One of the things that I see all the time, my mom and I run a very successful family and loved ones group. A lot of times, the parents aren't really making it the priority for their kids or the kids, or the people with the disorders aren't really making it a priority. It's totally understandable if there's things like finances and things, barriers. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when people have access to those things, they're just not owning it. Sometimes they're not owning it because they're not taking it seriously or not making it important. Or other times, people are expecting someone else to get them better.  I loved having a team. I didn't have a big team. I came from nothing. It was a very small team. I probably needed residential or something bigger. I only really had my mom's support, but we all leaned on each other. But I always knew it was me in the driver's seat. At the end of the day, my therapist couldn't save me, my mom couldn't save me, they couldn't come to my house and pull me out of bed or do an exposure for me, or have me go out in public during the daytime because of BDD. I had to be the one to do it. I could lean on them as support systems and therapists are there for, but at the end of the day, it was my choice. I had to do it. When my head hit the pillow, I had to make sure that I did everything I possibly could that day to recover.  When I took ownership, it actually gave me freedom. I wasn't waiting for someone to come along. I wasn't focusing on other things. I made it priority number one. I truly believe that that was the thing that got me better. Once again, didn't have a lot of resources, leaned a lot on self-help books and stuff because I needed a higher level of care, but there was none and we couldn't afford it. I don't want anyone to hear this podcast and think, “Well, I can't find treatment in my area.” That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying, whatever you have access to, own it, make it a priority, and definitely be in that leader's seat because that's going to be what's going to get you better. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. I think too when I used to work as a personal trainer, I would say to them, “You can come to training once a week, but that once a week isn't going to be what crosses you across that finish line.” You know what I mean? It is the work you do in the other 23 hours of that day and the other seven days of the week. I think that is true. If you're doing and you're dabbling in treatment, but it's not the main priority, that is a big reason that can hold you back. I think it's hard because it's not fair that you have to make it priority number one, but it's so necessary that you do.  I really want to be compassionate and empathize with how unfair it is that you have to make this thing a priority when you see other people, again, making their social life their priority or their hobby their priority. It sucks. But this mindset shift, this recalibration of this has to be at the top. When it gets to being at the top, I do notice, as a clinician, that's when people really soar in their recovery. Chris: Yeah. We had a very honest conversation with my BDD therapist, my OCD therapist, and my psychiatrist, and they're like, “You need a higher level of care. We understand you can't afford it. There's also a lot of waiting lists.” They're like, “You're really going to have to put in the work in between sessions. You're supposed to be in therapy every day.” We just couldn't. All we can afford is once a week. They said, “Look, when you're not in our session, you need to be the one.”  So, for instance, with depression, my psychiatrist is like, “Okay, you're obviously taking the medication, but you need to get up at the same time every day. Open up all your blinds, go upstairs, eat breakfast on the balcony, get ready, leave the house from nine to five.” I didn't have a job. “But you need to be out of the house. You need to be in nature. You need to do all these things.” I never wanted to, but I did it. Or with my OCD and BDD recovery, I didn't want to go out in public. I felt like it looked horrendous. I felt like people were judging me, but I did. Instead of going to the grocery store at 2:00 in the morning, I was going at noon. When everyone's there for OCD, it was like, I didn't want to sit in public places. I didn't want to be around people that I felt I could potentially harm.  My point is like every single day, I was doing work, I was tracking it, I was keeping track, and I had to do that because I needed to do that in order to get better based on the setup that I had.  I do want to also say a caveat. I always have the biggest empathy for people or sympathy for people that are a CEO of a company or like a parent and have a lot of children, or it's like you're busy working all day and you're trying to balance stuff. I mean, the only good thing that came from being housebound is I didn't have a lot of responsibilities. I didn't have a family. I wasn't running a company. I wasn't working. So, I did have the free time to do the treatment. So, I have such sympathy for people that are parents or working at a company, or trying to start their own small business and trying to do treatment too. But I promise you, you don't have to put your recovery first forever. Really dive into it, get to that place where you're really, really stable. It'll still be a priority, but then you will be a better parent, a better employee, a better friend once you've really got your mental health to a level that you can start to support others. You may need to support yourself first, like the analogy with a mask on the plane. ROADBLOCK #5: YOU HAVE A FIXED MINDSET Kimberley: Agreed. That's such an important point. All right, we're moving on to roadblock number five. This is yours again, Chris. Tell us about the importance of specific mindsets, particularly a fixed mindset being the biggest roadblock. Chris: One of the things that makes me the most sad about people having a mental health condition because of how insidious they are is it starts to have people lose their sense of identity. It has them start to almost re-identify who they are, and it becomes a very fixed mindset. So, if you have social anxiety or social phobia, it's like, “Oh, I'm somebody that's not good around people. I say embarrassing things. I never know what kind of conversation to lead with. I should probably just not be around people.” Or, let's say generalized anxiety. “Deadlines really caused me too much strain. I can't really go back to school.” BDD. “I'm an unattractive person. Nobody wants to date me. I'm unlovable.”   We get into these fixed mindsets and we start to identify with them, and inevitably, that person's life becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. So, the more they identify with it, the more that they become isolated from others, and they have this very fixed mindset. I think of like OCD, for instance, isn't really about guidelines; it's all about rules. This is how things are supposed to be. What happens is when I work with a client specifically, somebody that's pretty severe, it's trying to get them to see the value in treatment and to even tap into their own personal values is really difficult. It's like, “Treatment doesn't work. I've tried all the medications. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm just not somebody that can get better.” SOLUTION #5: GROWTH MINDSET What I tell clients instead is, “Let's be open. Let's be curious. Let's move into a growth mindset. Let's focus on learning, obtaining education, being open to new concepts. Look, when you were younger and the OCD didn't really attack you, or when you were younger and you didn't deal with social anxiety, you were having friends, you had birthday parties, you were going to school, and everything. Maybe that's the real you, and it's not that you lost it. You just have this disorder that's blocked you from it.” And so, when clients become open and curious and willing to learn, willing to try new things, and to get out of their comfort zone, that's where the growth really happens.  If you're listening to this podcast or watching it right now and you're determined like, “This isn't working; nothing can help me,” that fixed mindset is never something that's going to get you from where you are to where you want to be. You have to have that growth, that learning, that trying new things, expanding.  I always tell clients, “If you try something with your therapist and it doesn't work, awesome. That's one other thing that doesn't work. Move on to something else.” That openness. What I always love after treatment is people are like, “I am social. I do love to be around people. I am somebody who likes animals. I just was avoiding animals because of harm thoughts.” People start to get back into who they really are as soon as they start to be more open to recovery. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. The biggest fixed mindset thought that I hear is, “I can't handle it.” That thought alone gets in the way of recovery so many times. We go to do an exposure, “I can't handle this.” Or, “What if I have a panic attack? I cannot handle panic attacks.” It's so fixed. So I often agree with you. I will often say, this work, this mental health work, or this human work that we do is shifting the way we see ourselves and life as an experiment. We always have these black-and-white beliefs like “I can't handle this” or “I can't do this. I can't get in an elevator. I can't speak public speaking,” or whatever it might be. But let's be curious. Like you said, let's use it as an experiment. Let's try, and we'll see. Maybe it doesn't go great. That's okay, like you said, but then we know we have data, and then we have information on what got in the way, and we have some information.  I think that even just being able to identify when you're in a fixed mindset can be all you need just to be like, “Oh, okay, I'm having a very black-and-white fixed mindset.” Learning how to laugh and giggle at the way our brain just gets so determined and black-and-white, like you can't do this, as you said, I think is so important because, like you said, once you get to recovery, then you go on to live your life and actually do the things that you dream, the dream that you're talking about. It might be you want to get a master's degree or you might want to go for a job, or you want to go on a date. You're going to be able to use that strong mindset for any situation in life. It applies to anything that you're going to conquer.  I always say to clients, if you've done treatment for mental health, you are so much more prepared than every student in college because they haven't gone through, they haven't had to learn those skills. Chris: Yeah, no, exactly. I remember like my open mindset was one of the assets I had in recovery. I remember going to therapy and being like, “I'm just going to listen. These people clearly know what they're doing. They've helped people like me. Why would it be any different?” And I was open. I can see the difference with clients that have a more growth mindset. They come in, they're scared. They're worried. They've been doing something for 10, 15, 16 years, and they're like, “Why is this guy going to tell me to try to do different things or to think different or have different thinking patterns?” But they're open. I always see those people hit that finish line first. It's the clients that come and shut down. The family system has been supporting this like learned helplessness. Nobody really wants to rock the boat. Everything shut down and closed. It's like prying it open, as most of the work. And then we finally get to the work, but we could have gotten there quicker. Everybody's at their own pace, but I really hope that people hear this, though, are focused on that openness. You were talking about like people thinking they can't handle it. The other thing I hear sometimes is people just don't think they deserve it. “I just don't even deserve to get better.” You do. You do. That's what I love about my job the most. Everybody that comes into my office, and I'm like, “You deserve a better life than you're living. Whatever it is you want to do. You want to be a vet. How many animals are you going to save just by getting into being a vet? You got to do it.” My heart breaks a little bit when people have been dealing with mental health for long enough that they start to believe they don't even deserve to get better.  SOLUTION #6: IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY TO DO HARD THINGS Kimberley: I love that. So, we had five roadblocks, and we've covered it, but we promised six strategies. I want to be the one to deliver the last one, which everyone who listens already knows what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say it for the sake that it's so important for your recovery, which is, it's a beautiful day to do hard things. It is so important that you shift, as we talked about in the roadblock number one, you shift your mindset away from “I can't do hard things” to “It's okay to do hard things.” It doesn't mean you've failed. Life can be hard.  I say to all my patients, life is 50/50 for everybody. It's 50% easy and 50% hard. I think some people have it harder than others. But the ones who seem to do really well and have that grit and that survivor's mindset are the ones who aren't destroyed by the day when it is hard. They're willing to do the hard thing. They're okay to march into uncertainty. They're willing to do the hard thing for the payoff. They're willing to take a short-term discomfort for the long-term relief or the long-term payout. I think that mindset can change the game for people, particularly if you think of it like a marathon. Like, I just have to be able to finish this marathon, I'm going to do the hard thing, and think of it that way. There'll be hills, there'll be valleys, there'll be times where you want to give up, but can I just do one hard thing and then the next hard thing, and then the next hard thing? Do you have any thoughts on that? Chris: I'm glad that this is the message that you put out there. I'd say, obviously, when I think of Kim Quinlan as a friend, I think of other things and all the fun we've had together. But as a colleague, I always think of both. Obviously, self-compassion. But this idea of it's a beautiful day to do hard things, I like it because we've always talked about doing hard things as this negative thing before you came along, and by adding this idea of it's a beautiful day. When I look at all the hard things I did in my own recovery, or I see clients do hard things, there's this feeling of accomplishment, there's this feeling of growth, there's this feeling of greatness that we get. Just like you were saying, beyond the mental health conditions that I dealt with, when I start getting into real life after the mental health conditions now are more in recovery, every time I choose to do hard things, there's always such a good payoff. I was convinced I would never be able to get through school and get a degree and become a licensed therapist because I struggled with school with my perfectionism. It was difficult for me to get back in there and to humble myself and say, “Hey, you may flop and fail.” But now I'm a licensed therapist because of that willingness to do hard things.  I could give a plethora of examples, but I want people to hear that doing hard things is your way of saying, “I believe in myself. I trust myself that I can accomplish things, and I'm going to tap into my support system if I need to, but I am determined, determined, determined to push myself to a level that I may not think I can.” I love when clients do that, and they always come in, they're like, “I'm so proud of myself, I can't wait to tell you what I did this weekend.” I love that. So, always remember hard things come with beautiful, beautiful, beautiful outcomes and accomplishments. Kimberley: Yeah. I think the empowerment piece, when clients do scary, hard things, or they feel their hard feelings, or they do an exposure, they'll often come in and be like, “I felt like I could do anything. I had no idea about the empowerment that comes from doing hard things.” I think we've been trained to think that if we just avoid it, we then will feel confident and strong, but it's actually the opposite. The most empowered you'll ever feel is right after you've done a really, really hard thing, even if it doesn't go perfectly. Chris: Yeah, and so much learning comes out of it. That's why I always tell clients too, going back to one of our first roadblocks, beating yourself up prevents the learning. Let's say you try something and it doesn't go well. I was talking to a colleague of ours who I really, really like. She was telling me how her first treatment center failed. Now she's doing really well for herself down in San Diego. She's like, “I just didn't know things, and I just did things wrong, and I learned from it, and now I'm doing well.”  It's like, whenever we look at something not going the way we'd like as an opportunity to learn and collect data, it just makes us that much better when we try it the other time. A lot of times these anxiety disorders were originally before treatment, hopefully trying to find ways to avoid our way through life—tough words—and trying to figure out, like, how can I always be small and avoid and still get to where I want to be? When people hear this from your podcast—it's a beautiful day to do hard things—I hope that they recognize that you don't have to live an avoidant lifestyle, an isolated lifestyle anymore. Really challenging yourself and doing hard things is actually going to be so rewarding. It's incredible what outcomes come with it. Kimberley: Amazing. Well, Chris, thank you so much for doing this with me again. We finally stamped it into the podcast, which makes me so happy. Tell us where people can hear about you, get in contact with you, and learn more about what you do. Chris: I am really active in the International OCD Foundation. I'm one of their board members. I also am one of their lead advocates, just meeting as somebody with the disorder. I speak on it. Then I lead some of their special interest groups. The Body Dysmorphic Disorder Special Interest Group is one of them, but I lead about four of them. One of their affiliates, OCD Southern California, I am Vice President of OCD SoCal and a board member. We do a lot of events here locally that Kim is part of, but also some virtual events that you could be a part of. And then, as a clinician, I'm a licensed clinician in Costa Mesa, California. I currently work at The Gateway Institute. You can find me either by email at my name, which is never easy to spell. So, ChrisTrondsen@GatewayOCD.com, or the best thing is on social media, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, or X, I guess we're calling it now. Just @christrondsen. You could DM me. I always like to hear from people and get people's support, and anything I can do to support people. I always love it. Kimberley: Oh my gosh, you're such a light in the community, truly. A light of hope and a light of wisdom and knowledge. I want to say, because I don't tell you this enough as your friend and as your colleague, thank you, thank you for the hope that you put out there and the information you put out there. It is so incredibly helpful for people. So, thank you. Chris: I appreciate that. I forgot to say one thing real quick. Every first, third, and fourth Wednesday of the month at 9 a.m. Pacific Standard Time on the IOCDF, all of their platforms, including iocdf.org/live, I do a free live stream with Dr. Liz McIngvale from Texas, and we have great guests like Kim Quinlan on, so please listen. But thank you for saying that. I always try to put as much of myself in the community, and you never know if people are receiving it well. I want to throw the same thing to you. I mean, this podcast has been incredible for so many. I always play some of this stuff for my clients. A lot of clients are looking for podcasts. So, thanks for all that you do. I'm really excited about this episode because I think it's something that we touch so many people. So, now to share it on a bigger scale, I'm excited about it. But thank you for your kind words. You're amazing. It's all mutual. Kimberley: Thank you. You're welcome back anytime. Chris: And we're going to get Greek food soon. It's funny [inaudible] I'm telling you. It's life-changing. Thanks, Kim. Listen to other episodes. Kimberley: Thank you.

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Finding that secret sauce can lead to success, but it's not always easy to find. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chris Sexton, founder of the barbecue catering company, Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. From learning countless lessons in the Greenville Starts program to dealing with personal health concerns, Sexton discusses the future of his company, how he has become more appreciative of his skills, and the importance of keeping priorities straight as an entrepreneur. Guest: Chris Sexton Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sextonsmokingrill Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. You know, this is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University.  Today's episode is part of the everyday entrepreneur series in which we talk to entrepreneurs who have graduated from our GVL Starts program. And the reason that we're doing that is we want you to hear their stories and be inspired by them wherever they are in the process of their venture. So today we have a very special guest, Chris Sexton, who is the owner of Sexton Smoke-N-Grill, and a new venture that he's calling Mr. Sauce It Up. Chris, welcome to the show.  CHRIS: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.  MARY: Chris, I'm so happy that you were able to join us today because one - I'm gonna look right into the camera for the YouTube people - Chris' food is amazing. Now when I was in, you know, I was a broadcaster for 20 years, and when I was in Texas, the broadcasters and you know different people in the community, they call us celebrities or whatever, but we had to judge barbecue competitions. So I've judged many a barbecue competition in my life. And Chris' is by far the best of any that I have done and it all boils down to the sauce, which I imagine is where the Mr. Sauce It Up came from.  CHRIS: That is exactly where Mr. Sauce came from. I've created a new sauce using fruit, alcohol, and just a wide imagination to come up with different sauces. We've got about 10 to 15 sauces that we do.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: All incorporating fruits and alcohol like I said. Like you can take Hennessy bourbon… MARY: Don't give your whole secret away.  CHRIS: No, everything's not coming, but we've got great stuff coming.  MARY: We don't want people to copy it. And you will want to once you taste this, you'll want to try to redo this at home. Tell us about how you got started with this. Because you're in finance.  CHRIS: I'm in finance. So to be honest with you, from working in finance, I've always had a passion for cooking. I started cooking when I was like 14 years old working at a little restaurant in Greer with legendary Peggy Davis. She owns Peggy's Diner in Greer. Started working with her, handing out trays… and I kind of fell in love with that whole environment of cooking, creating. Did that all the way through high school… worked at McDonald's. But the sauce and the cooking came from truly talking on the phone with a guy from Mississippi on the phone about a car deal.  MARY: Oh, wow. CHRIS:  And he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I was going to try fried turkey. He said you need to smoke it.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that day, I smoked a duck, a turkey and a…a duck, a turkey, and a Boston butt.  MARY: Wow.  CHRIS: And they all came out great.  MARY: Yeah. On your first time. CHRIS: On my first time, it came out great. Not perfect, but great. MARY: Right.   CHRIS: But it was addictive. It was like it was something that…it's what I needed at that point in time to slow me down and give me some perspective. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And from there it's just kind of bloomed and grown from there.  MARY: Yeah. What inspired you? Was it just the conversation with him or have you always… I mean, you've kind of always been a little a foodie. CHRIS: A foodie.  MARY: I mean, I consider you a foodie.  CHRIS: So what really inspired me is the process.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I fell in love with it. And I'm a person that loves serving people. So getting to feed people, seeing smiles on their face, people honestly patting your back saying this is the best barbecue I've ever had.  MARY: And there are some smiles when they eat your stuff.  CHRIS: And it's encouraging. So the sauce idea actually came… I made a dish, not gonna say what dish it is, and my mom tried it and when she got done, she says “man, this would be good on some chicken wings.” MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And so me being who I am, it took me like three years… I sat there and thought about it and one day while I was at work, all my great ideas come on the clock… So I was sitting there one day and I'm like bingo. I figured out how to do it, I tried it, and I kind of took it off from there.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that's… the biggest thing about my barbecue is it's different. MARY: Yeah. It totally is.  CHRIS: And I refuse to do what everybody else does. And my goal with my business is to create a new space in a traditional market.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: When you go to restaurants and you go places… that's the other thing that inspired me…I'm tired of eating vinegar based, tomato based, mustard based barbecue sauces. You know, I want something different and so that's what we've done. MARY: So you have…how many sauces did you say now?   CHRIS: Got around 10 or 15 sauces. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: The newest…the newest sauce that I'm working on would be a Carolina white sauce. Carolina is known for that fruit flavor for peaches and things of that nature.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So imagine taking your traditional yum yum sauce mixed in with a little bit of fruit.  MARY: Oh yeah.  CHRIS: And we're working on that and actually combining the smoked brisket and pulled pork with fried rice with that yum yum sauce.  MARY: Oh my gosh. My mouth is watering.   CHRIS: So, yeah. Look for us on Tik Tok soon. MARY: Yeah, there you go. When we were in the… we were in Greenville Starts cohort together, and the first time I tasted Chris's sauce, I was like, “Chris, you need to call this the best damn sauce ever.”  CHRIS: That is actually the slogan. “The best damn sauce you've ever had.”  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. CHRIS: I tell people… I'm trying to be humble, but when you have something that's different, you have to let people know.  MARY: Exactly.  CHRIS: And this is when you taste it, it just… it kind of shocks you because you're not… you're thinking barbecue sauce.  MARY: Totally.  CHRIS: But it kind of just catches you… you're like what is this?  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And it just kind of sucks you in.  MARY:  Well, and I think you just said it correct. You're taking a space that is so kind of entrenched in kind of the flavors that are there. And you're creating something new with the idea of barbecue. And I love that. Can you talk us through the process of creating this business because I guess you started with the smoking first and then the sauces and then where are you… how, you know…do you have a website? Do you have a restaurant? How are you coming together?   CHRIS: What we're doing now is… So this is how I initially started out. I was at my desk at Ford one day having a conversation with someone that asked me about catering.  MARY:Yeah.  CHRIS: So I hopped online, in between calls, looking at what I had to do to get started so I went online, I got my EIN…and kind of got in touch with state and got everything going. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: That was in 2016. So for the last three years off and on, I've done a lot of catering. A lot of on site. My biggest thing is on site grilling. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I put on quite a show when I grill.  MARY: I mean you can tell with his personality. You're the entertainment and the food.  CHRIS: So yeah, if you're looking for an entertainer and a grill master, I'm your guy. So we… that's my big thing is I travel, I take my grill, I like to set up shop.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And I also work with… I've been working… I had been working before I took my current job with the church during the Wednesday night Bible studies. I'm big on… like I said my dad is a Baptist preacher.  MARY: Right. CHRIS: So we grew up in the country and all I know is fellowship and eating. I've probably eaten in every county in the state.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: Every, every type of food you can have, but those experiences is what inspired me. But long story short, the business idea and the model came from just three years of having to stop and go because working back and forth, and now learning how to balance time, family, and everything. The Mr. Sauce It Up will give me the opportunity to kind of work and service people and enjoy it and also make my first big shine through Mr. Sauce It Up.  MARY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about… because entrepreneurial, you know, ventures are, it's a journey, right? And I know we all have setbacks, and I know that you've had some setbacks, including a health setback for a while that kind of made everything go on pause. So how are you doing now? And let's talk about the setbacks and how you overcame them.  CHRIS: Oh, wow. So it's crazy the night that we had our finale. Our, you know, our big pitch.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I found out I had a nodule on my thyroid that they had to go in and remove. They thought it was small, but it ended up being like the size of a baseball. MARY: Wow. CHRIS: So it sat on my chest and it kind of impacted me. Dealing with things like that… it impacts…your thyroid is your gas and keeps you going. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: So for like the last three years, I've ran on nothing but adrenaline and you didn't know it. So it's taken me a little… little bit of time to adjust to being normal and not having that excess energy and just you know being actually knowing what it feels like to be tired and having to take a nap. MARY: Right. CHRIS: So for the last six, you know, part of that I ran on you know pretty much adrenaline because the thyroid and I were back balanced. Kind of and it… but it gave me an opportunity to really sit back and refocus and re-  kind of gave me a bigger hunger for what I want to do. I've looked at food trucks, and things like that, but a crazy and a funny fact about me is I've had 22 wrecks in my lifetime.  MARY: 22 wrecks? CHRIS: 22 automobile accidents.  MARY: Oh my goodness, Chris. CHRIS: So me driving a food truck probably nobody around here wants.  MARY: They don't mix.  CHRIS: That's not a good mix so I'm in the process of trying to find a building either…. I would prefer Greenville, but the Spartanburg area is also something I'm open to… to certainly barbecue out of. But until then, I'm gonna let myself and also cakes and sweet potato pies…  MARY: Yeah. Oh my god. Sweet potato pies.  CHRIS: …kind of feed my business and my picture while I kind of work my nine to five and do your day in and day out thing.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: The struggle. You know, being an entrepreneur… it takes a… you got to have a little bit of crazy in you to be an entrepreneur. But the biggest thing you have to have to be an entrepreneur is being resilient.  MARY: Yes. CHRIS: You never know what obstacles are gonna come your way. I never expected and never thought I was sick MARY: Right. You had no idea.  CHRIS: I had no idea. You know, and even through it, you got to, you know, one of the mottos I live off of is fake it till you make it.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: You got to go into every day, no matter what's going on, with a smile on your face, press through. And you kind of put it behind you and live in that moment because you never know life can be taken from you at any given moment. So you got to enjoy it no matter what's going on. And that's what's kind of helped me evolve and get to the point that I'm at now. And for me, I've learned you know, when things are going… when things are going at their best is when things…your biggest hurdles are going to come. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For me, I spent all last year partnering with people and creating a lot of partnerships I kind of had to give up. So to kind of reinvent myself and roll back out and rebrand as Mr. Sauce It Up, it's going to be really exciting and I think it's the right way and path to go. The biggest thing I can tell other entrepreneurs is don't be stubborn.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For a whole course, through Greenville Starts, everybody told me, “it's the sauce, it's the sauce, it's the sauce.”  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: And I love cooking. I love grilling.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And a couple of weeks ago… I'd say a couple of months ago, it finally dawned on me “Hey, you've got a product that nobody else can do.” MARY: Right. CHRIS: This is your…this is your headline and this is your angle. I'll still grill and barbecue and do barbecue and whatnot. But…I have a gift that I gotta give the world.   MARY: Right. That's your foot in the door -  think the barbecue, but the sauce is so scalable. I mean it gives me goosebumps just thinking about where you could go and seeing this on grocery store shelves. I mean it really does. CHRIS: That's my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is to… MARY: I mean I literally just got goosebumps.  CHRIS: We've got here in Greenville…we've got we've got the Duke's manufacturing. I want to have something similar to that here just pumping out sauce so hopefully when you're getting you know your Chick fil A… go to McDonald's get a sauce packet, and you'll see my pretty face on it. MARY: I love it. I love it. And you said some really good things about there in that comment about being resilient and not being stubborn. And I think being willing to go with the flow because I know you were in talks about a space right when you got sick. And so every… I mean literally everything went on hold.  CHRIS: So with the space…this is another thing that when in the restaurant business, it's a risky business… MARY: It is.  CHRIS: For me, the biggest thing is finding people that want to invest and that will roll the dice on a restaurant. MARY: And that's true for all restaurant owners.  CHRIS: That's been the biggest challenge, but the buildings I looked at have been highly competitive.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I looked at a property in Duncan… was looking at property in Duncan and somebody came in at the last minute and outbid me by like 30 grand.  MARY: Right. Wow.  CHRIS: And being in finance and being the underwriter you… the risk… I'm very careful if that's the risk I take and I evaluate it making sure I'm making solid decisions.  MARY: And you understand that risk.  CHRIS: Yeah, because being in business for yourself, is a risk alone. MARY: Absolutely. CHRIS: You don't want your business upside down and trying to make back money that you may not be able to get back. That's not a wise move so we kind of backed off a bit. And it's been a blessing because like I said had I got into it then, gotten sick, we would have been in a worse situation. So thankfully, we got into a position where we're able to press pause and my true belief is that when my opportunity and my time is there, it's gonna happen but until then we're just gonna keep doing what we have to do.  MARY: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So what's been the most rewarding thing about starting this venture for you? CHRIS: Networking and meeting new people.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And to be honest with you, the other thing people don't know about me is I'm kind of shy.  MARY: I don't believe that for a minute. Because the first night we were in Greenville Starts together, I mean, we clicked, obviously but…but yeah, no. But you, probably like me, I have to overcome it when I'm with people. Once I get there, I'm fine.  CHRIS: So I guess you can say my shyness comes out different. When I get nervous and get shy, it's like lights on, like camera on, game on, let's go. So you never really know it. So I embrace it. And being able to… this has taught me how to fight through that and how it really… I guess having a good time meeting new people and the biggest thing I think I'd say is just learn. Being an entrepreneur has taught me so much and it has stretched my limits. And so when I was younger, I was a hothead. MARY: I believe that.  CHRIS: Something happened… something happened and I'm, you know, fired up. MARY:  Right. CHRIS: So for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my first time back out and I go to leave and my grill catches a flat tire.  MARY: Oh, no. Yeah.  CHRIS: And the old me would have been saying Sunday School words and throwing stuff and all upset. We just pressed pause and regrouped and it has made me grow and develop patience. And understand that some things you cannot control. If you can't control it, you just move on.  MARY: I would think that this entrepreneurial process that you're on, and that health scare, that major health scare, probably both had something to do with that kind of, okay, it does no good to get upset about this stuff, just deal with it one thing at a time. CHRIS: Well there's another factor in there also. I've got a grandson now.  MARY: Oh yes, that's true. Happy Grandfather.  CHRIS: So, being a grand dad, it kind of…I would say the moment I took my daughter to the hospital.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Got the call. I had to take her to the hospital. That's when life changed.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: We just kind of… I don't know it's something about having a grandchild that you can give back to them.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: It kind of changes you. At the same time, it just shows your new appreciation for life. So all of that within the three month period, it really has slowed me down… made me appreciate life even more. But at the same time, it's made me a fighter. It's really made me a fighter and made me...  MARY: Yeah, because you want to be around for him. CHRIS: Yeah, to be honest with you, this whole get up, I've thought about for the last four years.  MARY: Yeah, this is what it's gonna look like. CHRIS: Yeah. And going through that experience gave me the courage to kind of step out of the shell and put it out there and move forward because what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody will laugh at you? MARY: Right. Exactly.  CHRIS: You know at the end of the day, this is who I am.  MARY: And who cares? If they're laughing at you, they're looking at you?  CHRIS: They're looking at you. They're going to remember.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: This is who I am. A little country guy from South Carolina just trying to sell some good barbecue and sauce.  MARY: Yeah, I love it. Chris, I love it. So we were, like I said we were in the Greenville cohort, Greenville starts cohort together, and for those of you may not know that's like an eight week program where the participants could expose everything from, you know, fundraising, capital to legal issues and things that of course, you're not an expert in everything, right? And so we learned so much to marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched on it in that class. What were some of the takeaways from that that you are implementing now? Almost a year later.   CHRIS: Want to hear a good story? MARY: Yeah always.  CHRIS: It kind of goes with the question you asked me previously about my experience.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Do you remember the night that we wrote the breakup letter?  MARY: Yes. We had to write a breakup letter to our business. And you know, you're the second person to bring this up in these conversations, but his breakup letter was amazing. But go ahead.  CHRIS: I lived my breakup letter this year. And that night, the night that we had read that letter out loud and share that experience…  MARY: Yeah.   CHRIS: I lived it this year. And going through it and living it and seeing your dreams kind of, let's just say be taken away.  MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: It makes you appreciate your gifts and it makes you appreciate what you did. So, without Greenville Starts, I probably wouldn't have pushed through this year. I probably would have gave up and just gone back to working the nine to five and just you know enjoy life but my experience with Greenville Starts and having to, you know, go through a made breakup with something that you love and then having to go through it actually, it kind of gave you…I can go back and I can remember some of the speeches that the speakers gave. I will say it gave me motivation and courage and more than anything else it taught me that I'm not a know it all. I've worked in the banking industry for years as a banker and on the other side of the fence, telling people no to loans and being actually on the opposite end of it - trying to be approved, trying to get all your documents together gives you a whole new appreciation for what people on the other side go through. We've been on both sides. I have an appreciation for both now. But I will say that Greenville Starts… it gave me the courage to bounce back and gave me that fight and it prepared me for the hurdles that were ahead. So if anybody in Greenville County has a business idea and they feel like they can make it, but their confidence is an issue, I would definitely recommend Greenville Starts. We have the all-American, the GOAT, the great, the best hair, Brian Davis. He just…has a way of inspiring…inspiring you. Like just…any of our cohorts, I think about you guys and where you're at and I see your successes and it motivates you. You see other people being successful and that pushes you on.  MARY: One hundred percent. Which is the whole reason we do this podcast is to share your all's stories with the public so that we can encourage other people to go ahead and follow their dreams and create their ventures, you know, and I mean, you talk about Greenville Starts being an inspiration, you're an inspiration to, I know our entire cohort.  CHRIS: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I think, you know, God puts you in a certain place at a certain time. And I think I feel like that was a perfect time because like going into it, I'll be honest with you toward the end of class I kind of felt like something was off. It drained me. It drained me. It put me… I don't like talking about this aspect of it, but it impacted my mental health.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It gave me some anxiety and put me in a depressive state and it you know, that's not me. MARY: Right. CHRIS: One hundred miles per hour, 100 days a week.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So at the end of the class, it was like okay, what we got going on? And you guys really pushed us through. It's like a family. It's not just like a class. It's not just like a group of people. It feels like family and a cheerleader group.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I've coached football, played football. I love sports and I love that team aspect. And that's what it felt like. Each week it wasn't a competition against each other. It was a way that we can push each other…push each other to make each other better. It's been a year and a half now. And when you can go back and recall specific conversations and specifics in a needed time, that's when you know it had an impact on you. That's what Greenville Starts said to me.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It put a lot of information in this encyclopedia up here.  MARY: Yeah. I love that. I love that. What advice do you have to other entrepreneurs that you… either from Greenville Starts or just your personal experience?  CHRIS: I'm going to steal one from Ted Lasso.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: The great Ted Lasso. You got to believe. And what he also says…that's number one is believe.You got to believe in yourself. You got to believe in the process and you got to trust, you know, that the good Lord put you in a position he gave you whatever gifts that you have for a reason. And you have to follow the plan in your process. When things get hard, you got to go harder.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And when things get easy, you got to kind of scratch your head and say, why is that so easy and know that something's coming. MARY: Right. Be prepared.  CHRIS: Be prepared because something's around the corner. The other thing is, I'm a Florida State fan. And the reason I'm a Florida State fan is because of…He talked about a lot about what you do when people aren't watching.  MARY: Yes.  CHRIS: And as an entrepreneur… it's what you're doing behind the scenes and when people aren't watching is what's going to make you successful. You know, the… you know, I cook a brisket 26 hours for it to be gone in 30 minutes.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So it's what I do behind the scenes and the effort and what people don't see is what makes you a great entrepreneur and a great… and great at what you do. And the last is something I learned from a guy named Tom Leopard back in 2012. Your priorities. As an entrepreneur, you have to have your priorities in order. It's got to be your faith, your family, and your fortune. If those three get out of whack at any point in time, it's time to step back, reevaluate, and bring them back in line and then things will start flowing so greatly. So always remember your faith, your family, and then you're fortune and as long as those three are aligned, you can always be successful and bounce back.  MARY: I love that. The three F's.  CHRIS: The three F's.  MARY: I love it. So you brought some… before we let you go, you brought some goodies for us. So, boy, I wish people…I wish we had smellivision because that cake smells so good. Oh my gosh. So Chris, what do we have here? This is one of the cakes that you do.  CHRIS: This is my spin on a…You lived in Kentucky?  MARY: I did not live in Kentucky.  CHRIS: I don't know why I thought you lived in Kentucky. So, this is my take on a Kentucky butter cake.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: So I call it a Carolina butter cake.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: It's a pound cake with some secret flavors.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: As all things as Mr. Sauce It Up does, we also do cake glazes.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So this has a pineapple. No, I'm sorry…a peach mango rum glaze to it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is going to be so good.  CHRIS: Mixed in butter. Something I came up with. I am the king of taking a recipe and turning it into my own. MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So, that's what I do the best. I don't… You know, if I go out to eat I'm probably going to take two… two combos, two meals and turn it into one.  MARY: And put them together.  CHRIS: So this is kind of what I've done with this and created my own flavor, but I feel pretty confident, I'm willing to bet you a $1 to your paycheck that you've never had a flavor like this.  MARY: All right, let's see it.  CHRIS: Let's see. Let me pull out my Dexter knife.  MARY: He's going to pull out his Dexter knife. Oh yeah, that's a Dexter knife. All right. All right. All right, let's cut into this sucker. So remind me again what the glaze is?  CHRIS: This is a peach mango with a hint of rum.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: And some other stuff that I can't really share with you at the time. I'll share with you at the time.  MARY: Right let's go. Cheers.  CHRIS: Cheers.  MARY: Oh my gosh.  CHRIS: Mmm. Mama where you at? Come on over here, get smacked.  MARY: That is so good. Did you say mama come on over here, get smacked?  CHRIS: Come on over. Come on over.  MARY: Oh yeah. So, we're going to have to change that phrase, well or add to it…the best damn sauce…the best damn glaze…because this is good stuff.  CHRIS: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.  MARY: Oh my goodness. Alright. So again, we'll have the links to how you get in touch with Chris wherever we're posting this podcast, both on YouTube and all of our podcast channels. Just look under the copy, the body copy. And you'll see that there because you… if you are having an event, you want to hire Chris to cater that event. Again, it's the entertainment and food. You can't beat that. CHRIS: Let me tell you.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I didn't mean to interrupt, but this cake is good.  MARY: It does taste good.  CHRIS: It tastes good. I'm a pound cake foodie and I think I've found something here.  MARY: I think you have too.  CHRIS: Not to brag, but yeah.  MARY: I think…I can't put it down. I got to finish eating so I can say the rest of the show so I can close the show out. Oh my gosh. So good. Alright. How do people get in touch with you if they want to get some sauce or they want you to cater an event?  CHRIS: Cater an event. You can find me on Facebook - Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N- Grill. Also on Instagram, it's Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. Email me at sextonssmokengrill@gmail.com. www.sextonssmokengrill.com. And that's just Sexton's, Smoke, the letter “n”, grill.com. Or you can call me 864-680-4629. We got the sauces.  MARY: Alright, Chris, thank you so much.  CHRIS: Thank you. Anytime. Anytime.  MARY: So remember, if someone you know is an entrepreneur or has an idea, Greenville Starts is a great place for them to get started or if they're somewhere in the process along the way and they just need that little extra “umph” to learn things that they don't necessarily know, then that's a great place. So, in order to get into the next cohort, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first link that pops up and get yourself on that list.  The other thing I wanted to remind everybody of is that we have the Paladin Pitch competition, which if you are a Furman student, you can win $10,000 for your venture. That's coming up in April, but you have to participate in some pitch competitions before that. So, contact the Hill Institute, get your pitch to them and start working and then from all those pitches throughout the year, they'll choose the finalists to pitch in April. So be thinking about that, be brainstorming. If you want to do something, now is the time to do it. So, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, a true example of the Furman Advantage. And remember, you can get this podcast two ways now - you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast, we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch it and you can see this beautiful cake that we just ate and see us eating it. And we also.. follow us on Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok because we just started a brand new Tik Tok channel and you'll see a lot of the outtakes and a lot of cool stuff on behind the scenes stuff on that Tik Tok channel. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

Welcome from (a very sick) Chad, Jon, and Chris Thank you Andrew D, Atte L, Sam VanT, Luke H The Siege of Erebor an ALEP stand-alone quest RRR -Multiplayer The Con is near! Decks we are bringing to The Con AMA  Farewell!

On this episode, my guest is Barbara from No Name Kitchen, an independent movement working alongside the Balkans and the Mediterranean routes to promote humanitarian aid and political action for those who suffer the difficulties of extreme journeys and violent push-backs.Their actions include medical care, distributions of food and clothes, legal support and the denunciation of abuses at the borders, where thousands of human beings keep suffering violence, fatigue and sickness during their migratory processes.No Name Kitchen was born in Belgrade by winter 2017 when a group of volunteers started cooking in Belgrade alongside the thousands of people who were fending for themselves after the closure of the Hungarian frontier. Since then, NNK supports those who suffer the lack of safe and legal pathways, collecting testimonies and denouncing the systematic use of institutional violence at the borders.Show NotesNo Name Kitchen: What's in a Name?Social Media as a Tool for OrganizingThe KitcheneersIt's a Border Crisis, not a Migration CrisisWhy do People Seek Asylum in EuropeHow the EU is Breaking its Own LawsBorder Violence in the BalkansWhat are Pushbacks?The Silence of Big-Name NGOsFrom Hospitality to Hostility: A Story in KladusaMigrants as Puppets in Political WarsThe EU's Racist Immigration ActionsThe Lives of NNK's Guests After the BorderHomeworkNo Name Kitchen Website - Facebook - Instagram - TwitterVolunteer w/ No Name KitchenLatitude Adjustment Program Podcast episode w/ No Name KitchenTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Welcome, Barbara, to the End of Tourism Podcast. Thank you for joining us on behalf of No Name Kitchen. [00:00:07] Barbara: Thank you very much, Chris.[00:00:10] Chris: I'd love it if we could start off with you telling us where you find yourself today, both geographically and perhaps emotionally as well. What does the world look like for you?[00:00:21] Barbara: So, actually in a very interesting place because I am visiting one friend who was living with me in Bosnia, who's one of the persons that started with me and developed with me the project of No Name Kitchen in Bosnia. And so I'm visiting her that we didn't see her for the last four years because we're all the time very busy with our lives and with our different projects.So I'm here with her these days with plan to head to Croatia next week. Because the political context changed in the borders a little bit in the last month and now there are people on the move in that are passing through Rijeka, this one Croatian city, and I want to go to see the situation there.And then maybe, if I find the time, I will also head Kladusa and Bihac that are the border areas of Bosnia where I used to live in the past and where I spend a lot of time with my life there. [00:01:14] Chris: Mm. Interesting. And you're from Spain originally, is that correct? [00:01:18] Barbara: Yeah, I'm from Spain and normally I, I spend the most of the time in Spain in the last years because sometimes you need a break from the border. Emotionally I feel very well as well because I'm with my friend who is a brilliant person and I adore her. She was a perfect colleague you know, when you're at the border, the life is very tough. You see a lot of people suffering.But having her as a colleague, it was beautiful thing because we gave too much support to each other. [00:01:44] Chris: What a blessing. What a blessing. Mm. [00:01:47] Barbara: I was very lucky. [00:01:49] Chris: Well, I know that a lot of the work that No Name Kitchen does is based in the Balkans and as well in Ceuta in Spain. And we'll come to those regions momentarily.But I'd like to ask you first why no name Kitchen? Why a kitchen without a name? [00:02:07] Barbara: It's a very nice story because No Name Kitchen was born in a very informal way. You know, it is not actually an organization. It's a movement of people. And there are different organizations registered in different countries, but itself No Name Kitchen is a movement of people helping people. And in 2017, so let's make a little bit of context. In 2016, European Union sent money to Turkey to close the border of the Balkans. Yeah. So, in the beginning of 2017, in the winter, many people found themselves in Serbia. They were trying to migrate to go to some country in Europe, and then they found themselves in Serbia with the borders of European Union closed. And many people like were activists that went to Greece to help people on the move because they knew the situation or what was happening since 2015.You probably remember in 2015 all this amount of people that were going from Turkey to somewhere in Europe to ask for asylum, to seek international protection. So many people were in Greece helping. They got information that in the city center of Belgrade, which is the capital city of Serbia, they were like more than 1000 people, mainly from Afghanistan at that moment, many of them minors with no parents, living in the old train station in a very bad conditions. And the weather was horrible. It was super cold. It was probably one of the coldest winters of the last years. So they just went there. They got some food from an organization. They went there and they saw a horrible situation where no one of the big institutional organizations were helping.So then, they, with these posts that they had and asking for, help in social media, in their own social media, people start sending money and they start cooking right away. So, then they found this group of activists from many countries found themselves cooking every day and also together with people on the move and distributing food every day, every night.And then one day, they were like, this seems like an organization. We actually are kind of organization. And then one guy, one from Afghanistan, he wrote on the wall with a spray kitchen. No, because it's like, we have a kitchen, we have an organization, but we have no name. And then it's the same guy.He wrote "No Name," and then it was like, "No Name Kitchen." And it just stay like this. I think it's amazing. It's a very pure name and it really shows what is the way No Name Kitchen movement works. Its informal way of people cooperating and doing things together and helping each other.[00:04:31] Chris: And so in that context, it was a spontaneous organization of people, or how did they, I mean, obviously people heard about this, but how did they come to organize together? [00:04:41] Barbara: Social media is most instant thing, right? So, they opened this facebook profile, and then they say, what is going on. Some journalists started going there because these activists started talking about the situation. So, journalism and photojournalists went there and start showing the images. Mm-hmm. Oh, because it was really like minus 20 degrees and things like that. And people were living in the old train station and were using this wood from the old train station that has this liquid that is toxic.So it was pretty awful. And also at the same time, the activists start hearing all these stories about the pushbacks, which is, yeah, something I would keep denouncing, since then, that is when people try to enter European Union, police will push them back to Serbia with violence, which is totally illegal.So yeah, it was just people that were in Greece trying to help people in Greece. Finally, everybody knows everybody in this activist world, and if you don't know anyone, then you contact someone and then this person will tell you, "Ah, there is this group of people doing that."Maybe you're interested. And then with the Facebook, they started to ask for donations. They started to call for more people to go and help because the situation was a big emergency and needed more, more people. Some other people will give interviews on newspapers, for example. I was not there at the moment. I arrived some months later. And how I met No Name Kitchen is because one girl told her situation to one Spanish newspaper. I read this interview. I found like amazing what they're doing. I found them on the social media and I contacted No Name Kitchen. And then I head to Belgrade few months after. So yeah, spontaneously. [00:06:11] Chris: Within the kitchens themselves, if we can call it that, within the No Name Kitchens, what kind of people end up showing up?Are these people who are already a part of the No name Kitchen Network? Or are they local people as well? [00:06:24] Barbara: Well, we call ourselves "kitcheners." It's many different kind of people. Like really it's, it's people. People want to help. People are good, despite all the politics that surround us, there is a lot of beautiful people in this world, and they can be someone who is. Retired and he was a lawyer in his life and now he finished his work and he's 66 years old and he wants to do something and he goes to Serbia and he spends there two months. He can be someone that's 22 years old and is doing an internship for the university and decided instead of doing a very easy internship, they will come with us and face what is really the situation in Europe? It's a very wide movement of people. Some of them can come to the borders and we have a policy of minimum one month cause it makes everything easier for the work, right? But then also a kitchener is a person that is in his home or her hometown gathering beautiful clothes to send to the border so people can dress nicely and is a person that is making some event in her or his town to raise money to share, to send to the activities. And there's really a lot of people, because many people are good and many people wanna help. They understand we cannot really be living in this Europe that they are making for us, the politicians. No, we need a more human place to live. Yeah. It's true. As you mentioned before, that is more people from the south of Europe and Germany also, not so much from the north of Europe.[00:07:45] Chris: Speaking of the issues in the Balkans, in between Serbia and Turkey and Greece, of course. Perhaps for our listeners, if you could, perhaps there's a way of summarizing briefly the main issues that are arising in Southern Europe regarding these immigration crises.Why is this happening? What are the major positions of the European Union, of organizations like No Name Kitchen, and what does that dynamic look like? From a distance, [00:08:15] Barbara: So first, I wanted to tell you in No Name Kitchen we don't say "migration crisis" because there are not really so many people who are migrating.So the crisis has been it's a border crisis, a political crisis. It's a humanitarian crisis. There are not so many migrants. And if the borders will be open, all this mess will not be happening. Right? So we don't call it migration crisis. So, basically according to the European Union law, if you wanna apply for asylum, if you come from a country that is in war or a country with a dictatorship, that when you complain about something or you can see yourself in jail from a country in conflict or whatever or you're from LGBTQ++ if you wanna apply for asylum is very, very few chances that you can get any visa to travel to Europe. So imagine you're in Syria, you're in Afghanistan, you're in Iraq, you're in Morocco, and you wanna apply for asylum to come to Europe or to get any visa that will allow you to come to Europe by plane.It's very, very, very few chances that they will give you any visa to come. But the European Union law also says that if you're in the European Union soil and you apply for asylum and you apply for international protection, it's your right that the country where you are, it starts a procedure to see and to understand if you really need this protection, which long legal procedure.And it takes a while. Yeah. So that basically is one of the main reasons why people are seeing themselves crossing borders in irregular manners and seeing themselves risking their lives as it just happened now from Libya, this shipwreck in Greece. So people are coming from Libya to Italy and now.A lot of people have died and others are in centers in Greece now. So this is the main point why people will cross the borders in irregular manners. But then there is a problem and it's like European Union is not following its own rules. So then when a person arrives in, for example, let's say Greece, let's say Bulgaria, I say this because they are more in the south, let's say Croatia or Hungary, countries that are bordered with other their countries, the people arrived there and then when they tried to apply for asylum, the most of common thing that can happen to them. And what we've been denouncing since the very beginning because people were explaining to us and we saw it was something very systematically. And it's something that is happening on a daily basis is that police take them back to this other country, which means a pushback. We call this a "pushback."And many times these pushbacks, which are illegal according to the European Union law, come with a lot of violence. Many times the police will steal the things from the people on the move. And many times they take, for example, their shoes when it's winter and then people to walk in the snow in the winter without shoes until they arrive to a safe place.So this is basically why people are crossing borders in this ways. Then another question that is very common, why a person will not stay, for example, in Bosnia, will not stay in Serbia, in North Macedonia, which are safe countries, which are very nice countries. Yeah. So, the problem is that if you look to the numbers, there are very few people, that get asylum there.So, there is people that tried too because it's like, okay, I'm in a safe place. There's no work here, and it's a beautiful place. But then if you look to the numbers, there are very, very, very few people every year that can access asylum. And while also you're waiting for your asylum to proceed, normally they keep you in those camps that really don't have the basic conditions to really have a decent life. I mean, these refugee camps, transit camps; it depends how they them in each country. [00:11:54] Chris: Wow. Thank you. And the major sites that no-name Kitchen operates in include Ceuta in Spain, which surprisingly, is actually on the African mainland. Mm-hmm. As well as in the Balkans in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Patras, Greece. [00:12:13] Barbara: Patras has just finished. Right. Basically many people are not going anymore to Greece as before because in Greek, the polices became very tough against people who are migrating. So, many times people are forced to be in detention centers, like in detention camps while they apply for asylum, while they wait for the asylum to proceed. It's like really a jail. Mm-hmm. So now many people go through Bulgaria and then Serbia.So in Greece there are not so many people anymore as it used to be. And we just close few weeks ago. But we're always open that there are more people start coming to Greece that we can reopen any project there. Okay. [00:12:47] Chris: And these other sites then in Ceuta as well as Serbia, Bosnia, and Bulgaria, these places are so important for No Name Kitchen in part because this is essentially where the movement of people flows through?[00:13:01] Barbara: We are basically in the borders because we do many things, not every day. We share food, clean clothes, provide tools that people can have hot showers, because also the many people don't have access to water. We have a health project that if someone needs a paid treatment because it's like, for example, dentist or for the eyes.And then in the hospital they don't wanna to give any of these treatments and we pay for the private doctors and so on. So it's many activities that we do every day about spending time with people in the movement, listening and spending and sharing our stories. But then all this also bring us to see how much their rights are attacked all the time.So then the aim is to denounce. The aim is that we don't need not to give this charity because there will be justice and then people don't need anymore. So the aim is to denounce what is happening all the time. So, in the place where we're is basically border areas. Mm-hmm. The border areas is where you can see how Europe is really not respecting the human rights.And because quite tough places, there is not so many movements on these areas. So for example, the humanitarian aid is pretty much criminalized. So normally police will disturb you just because you're giving jackets to people. Mm. So it's are places that are strategically for denouncing. And since it just started in Serbia, first it started in Belgrade, but three months after the team moved to Sid, which is in the border with Croatia because many people were there. And it was a point where you could really denounce on the pushbacks from Croatia. So then, all the other projects have been going very much together with the idea of reporting the border violence.Yeah. Mm. And in Ceuta, Spain, which is bordered with Morocco. It's like another border for people because even if it's a Spain, people are not allowed to take a ferry very easily to the mainland, it's very difficult. So there is a lot of bureaucratic problems in the middle, like barriers that are being pushed to the people, so then they don't have the chance to cross legally to the mainland.So many people also risk their life there. And at the same time, sometimes there are pushbacks from Ceuta to Morocco. We've denounced the pushbacks of minors and actually together with other organizations from Spain. And actually the former delegate of the government got investigated for that. And they are under, I dunno how you say in English, like invest. [00:15:27] Chris: Investigations. [00:15:29] Barbara: Yeah. So basically border areas are very much important for what we wanna denounce. Mm. And now we're starting operating in Ventimiglia, Italy, which even inside of Italy is very near France.And we visited the place there and then we saw how there are also pushbacks from France. So this is another place that it could, it could be interesting to denounce, because many, many times people would think like, ah, but this is happening there in Croatia and Serbia you know, like, Serbia is not European Union, so people sometimes think that when we are talking about the pushbacks and all this violence, like very far from us, and it's difficult to make people understand that it's actually with the money that comes from the European Union. That means that if you are from the European Union or you're working here and paying taxes here, your taxes are used to pay to torture people, basically.No. Mm wow. So it's also nice to be inside of Europe to show how this violence is systematic in the different borders. [00:16:23] Chris: Right. And in the context of these pushbacks I imagine they're happening in all different contexts and circumstances. Could you give us a little bit of an idea of what that looks like?I mean, I imagine a few different things. I imagine that people are in detention centers, people are in refugee camps. I imagine that in some instances people are simply on the street and then perhaps in others trying to get a meal. [00:16:51] Barbara: I mean, we don't see the pushbacks. Pushbacks are hidden. And also we are at the other side of the borders. We only can meet people after they got pushed-back.. Yeah. Mm. Okay. So for example, you're in Serbia and this person tells you, like, I just been pushback from Hungary.We're not in the border area. You cannot be at the border. We're in different towns near the border areas. Ok. So a pushback is like a person tries to cross the border in different ways. For example, walking the forest, hidden. It's very common.So these are the stories that people tell to us. And then at some points, police see them in maybe in Hungary or maybe in Bulgaria, or maybe in Croatia. Those are all European Union countries. And then either the police or it can be also neighbors that they believe they're patriots, they'll call the police.Mm-hmm. You can see the people on the move walking and then the police will can arrive there and can take the people back to the border by cars. Many times they need to sign papers that they don't know what is written on these papers. Many times they get lied by the police telling, like, if you sign this paper, you can access to asylum.And actually you're signing a paper that is making you a punishment for something or you're signing that you want to really go back to the other countries, so, you're signing something that you don't know. Many times people get put into detention places. It's very common in Bulgaria and in Croatia for example.And then when they leave these detention places, they are told that they need to pay for their days they've been sleeping there for the accommodation on the food, which is like normally according to what people explain to us, accommodation on food are awful. Many times, not even enough food. And many times we're talking that those are children or very young people, as well.And then police will take them to the border and then force them to come back to the country that is not European Union, which means maybe Bosnia, maybe Serbia, or maybe Turkey if they're in Bulgaria. And many times this comes with very huge violence. As you can see in our websites, we speak often about this. No Name Kitchen created one Network that is called Border Violence Monitoring Network. Border Violence Monitoring Network. Now we are not anymore part of it since last month, because we will report in other ways by ourselves and with other different partners. But there you can find all the testimonies we've been gathering since 2017.And it's how the people describe to us what happens to them. Many times, you can't really see, because many times the people describe to you one situation and then they show you their back and in their back you see the marks of the batons or the marks of sticks or things like that, so it's very obvious to see that the person is injured. Many times people can come with blood or with bruises in their faces because the police did them in their faces. Wow. And then other of the things that is very common is to steal their belongings. So like this, you make more difficult for them to continue their trip because then they take their phones, their clothes, money.So then if you see yourself, for example, in Serbia, again with no phone, with no money, with no shoes, with no basic clothes, then you cannot continue your trip. You need to find a way to get money again. You need to find, like, for example, that your family sends to you and then you can buy another phone and then you can buy new shoes.So you can continue, at some point, your way to try to ask for international protection to some European Union country. Wow. Wow. [00:20:11] Chris: I guess there's this aspect of the state that seems so deeply involved in the suppression and repression of these movements, especially from asylum seekers, right?Mm-hmm. And I think this is something that you hear about quite a bit in many parts of the world where there are these border crises, right? In regards to people who live in the borderlands who are for whatever reason against the movement or flows of people in this regard against asylum seekers in this obviously ends up or can end up with not just hostility, but violence, racism, et cetera.And I'm also curious about the possibility of hospitality in these contexts. And certainly no name kitchen appears to take on that role and that responsibility quite a bit. And it's one of the main themes of this podcast, as well, is hospitality. And I'm reminded of this story that, some years ago and at the beginning of the war in Syria around 2015, 2016, I heard a rumor that Syrian refugees were hiding in the abandoned houses in my grandparents' villages in northern Greece, right on the border with North Macedonia in the daytime and waiting until night to cross the border, mostly to avoid capture and persecution at the hands of either Greek or Macedonian authorities. And last year I was visiting my grandmother there. She confirmed the story and said that this 85 year old woman, she left her house in the daytime, in the same village, with trays and trays of food and jars of water to offer these travelers before they moved along.Since no name Kitchen relies largely on donations, I'm wondering about this notion of old time hospitality as opposed to the kind of industrial hospitality we hear about or we see in the hotels. One of the themes of this season is also about what kind of old time hospitality still exists in Europe, and I'm wondering what you and your team might have seen in this regard?[00:22:29] Barbara: so, this is a very interesting question because things have changed so much during the years, and basically because the authorities have criminalized so much. The people on the move in general, like being a migrant is like being a criminal according to general speech from the politicians, which comes from the European Union. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, it's being criminalized. The help. Humanitarian help is being criminalized. So imagine for example, I wanna tell you the story in Bosnia, because Bosnia is the project where I spent the most of my time in the last years. When I arrived in Bosnia, in Kladusa, that is in the north of Bosnia near Croatia. It was middle of 2018 and people will be very nice. And then people will be very nice with people on the move. So people on the move did not have a place where to stay cause there was no camp created there. And the mayor of the town say that they can use this field and stay. So there was a field. And then like independent organizations or independent movements like No Name Kitchen or others will be building tents, will be providing blankets and showers and so on, because the institutional organizations were doing pretty much nothing.And at the moment, they were like around 1000 people. There, it was already very difficult to cross and there were already a lot of pushbacks, so it was really difficult to cross. And some people stayed there for two years. So imagine how many wow pushbacks can it be that people can stay there up to two years.And the local people were also very nice. They will go to this camp, which is called... to this field. And will bring food, will bring clothes, will spend their cooking together, time with people because they were, lot of families, a lot of children from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco.And so. So it was actually very nice to see. And also from our side with the local people. Local people really welcome us very nicely, because they knew that we are going there to help and they were actually very worried to see all these people in the move suffering so much. You know, because also, it's very hard for them.You have to understand that in Bosnia was a very bad, cruel war, not so long time ago. Right. When you see yourself, that you need to see how children are walking in the night pretty much cold because they were just pushed back with their families. And then you see people with bruises in their faces and things like that.It is also very hard for the Bosnian people. Mm-hmm. But despite that, they were very welcoming and very nice. When the months start passing, the police start criminalizing the humanitarian aids. So, that means that, for example, there was this family that had some people in the move living in their place for free and then the police put them a fine of like, it was like 1000-2000 thousand Euro, which is lot of money for Bosnian income.Then if you have a bar and people can enter your bar, police will go to disturb you. So then in many bars, it started to be written and which is very sad to say and to imagine, but this happens, "migrants not allowed," in the door. Mm, [00:25:23] Chris: because the local people were also being harassed or under threat as a result.[00:25:28] Barbara: So the police will disturb very much the owners of the bars, right. ...where they welcomed people on the move. And then with the time also, because there are many places that do not accept people on the move. Then if you accept people on the move, many people will be there because there is not so many places anymore where they can spend the day.Like, having a coffee, being a pretty woman. So the criminalization of the people on the move started, like actually when the money from European Union came and then a camp was built, finally. A lot of money came. The institutional organizations obviously took over this money to build the camp, and then this speech started because there were like fights, who is going to manage the camps and so on. Then, for example, as it happens everywhere, because this is not exclusively in Kladusa, as it happens everywhere, whenever there are any elections, migrants are used for getting votes. No. So, for example, in 2020 after the lockdown, which was already a very hard period, there were elections in the north of Bosnia, and then the politicians used the migrants for their speech.And a lot of hate speech was spread. So, and even was local people would organize themselves to go and beat migrants. So, it changed from being super nice to the thought that these people are not good. European Union keeps exposing these people. European Union authorities send a lot of money to the borders to keep these people out of the European Union.So something might be wrong with them. European Union feels with the right to beat these people in their faces. To push them back and also with violence. So maybe these people are not so worth it. So, it's like how all these actions that come from all these European Indian countries are dehumanizing people.In a very bad way. Also, people will complain like, "ah, because the people are not clean," and of course they're not clean because the authorities cut the access to water, so they main access to water so you can have a proper shower was cut for a while. Things like that. So it seems very much from the moment that everybody was super welcoming to the opposite.And this is very much related with the speech that EU sends to the people who are trying to seek asylum. [00:27:33] Chris: Mm. So you think that this change in the way that people perceive these people on the move and the flows of people, it comes from the top down that it's a diffusion of EU based, state-based, language that then gets diffused as it rolls down the pyramid as it makes its way into social media, for example.[00:27:59] Barbara: Yeah, sure. The thing is that if the main authority, the main one is sending millions of euros and they say always, you can listen to Ursula von der Leyen for example, who is the president of the European Commission. She will say like, we're sending money to fight mafias of human trafficking.We're sending money to reinforce the borders, to protect our borders. You need to protect our borders because someone wants to attack the border, right? Mm-hmm. You're getting this work protection, right? Are we protecting from a six year old child from Syria? We're protecting from this actually. So, but when you're using these speech, you're making the people understand that we need to get protected from them.So that means these people are dangerous, right? Mm-hmm. And you're telling this. You're sending millions of euros every year to protect the borders and to fight against human trafficking mafias. This is what they say. It's not me. So, of course, a person who is sitting on her house and knows that some people that in her town, there is 800 people, for example, walking that she doesn't know, she would believe like, "ah, these people are dangerous" because what you, what what this woman who has authorities telling the television openly.Right? [00:29:08] Chris: I had an interview with Fiore Longo, who's a representative of Survival International, one of the oldest NGOs in Europe, in the world. And in that interview, she spoke at length about how the major NGOs in the conservation world, World Wildlife Fund, African Parks, and the rest of them, were essentially collaborating with state governments in Africa in order to push indigenous people off their traditional lands, in order to create national parks or national reserves or ecotourism organizations or companies. And I'm curious within the context of the border crises in Europe, how No Name Kitchen sees these much larger NGOs, the ones that I imagine getting money from governments and also helping to change government policy. [00:30:08] Barbara: We, as No Name Kitchen movement do not get any money from the European Union nor from governments. Why? Because if you as European commission are sending these millions of euros to "protect borders," how they say. To close the borders, while you are allowing the pushbacks because the pushbacks are being denounced.We brought this information to the European Parliament. It is there. It's not a secret. Everybody knows this happening. So, if you ask a European commission are sending all these big amounts of money, but then this European commission is sending also lots of money to these people that are rejected and that are abused at the borders, to create camps for them.Yeah, you can imagine how much this European Commission cares these people and how much nice might be these camps. Those camps are catastrophic, horrible. And many people have a lot of scabies. Many people have diseases from bedbugs and come to us actually to ask for cure because they are ignored.So the big institutional organizations, and I don't gonna say names because I'm talking on behalf of No Name Kitchen are many times inside of these camps and are getting money to manage these camps, which many times are like this. And sometimes there is no bedsheet at all. It's just this old, dirty mattress, what people can find when they entering the camp. And so you are getting these huge millions of money from the European Union and then you are keeping quiet about the abuses at the borders, what is this?Everybody can know which organizations they are because actually information is there. And normally they have these big advertisements showing people also, this is something that makes me very angry, because as I tell you, they are people. They're in different circumstances that we're, right now. They're same like you, and they were in their country, living a normal life until something happen.But they don't like to see themselves in this situation. Imagine that you are like now and then a war starts there, and then you need to see yourself asking for shoes, asking for food. This is catastrophe. This is very complicated. This is really difficult for them. But then they get these advertisements on the TV showing people like, "hi, these poor refugees, they need our help. Look these poor children, how much they need our help." But also you're kinda dehumanizing them a little bit. No, because you're showing them as these poor people that didn't know how to do the things by themselves when actually people on the move, in general, they are the bravest people I have ever met.Cause really this journey is something that you really, really need to be a brave person because the most of people will not do the journey. They stay in a calm area closer to their countries. And then they show them like these poor people, like if they will really not have power to change their situation and it's never like this.But then they make these advertisements, obviously. They not only get money from the European Union, but also from donors that with all their good intention want to support these poor people in their refugee camps. For example, Greece put this rule in 2020. This refugee camp, it was at the detention center, but like really like a jail of maximum security. That you really cannot leave this place. So if there is this government making these rules that against the human rights, keeping people into detention center, that's because you're applying for a asylum.But your asylum is, is being analyzed. Why, EU as an institutional organization are supposed to work for the human rights are supporting this and supporting these decisions from the government and then the government will say, "okay, now this kind of organization cannot be anymore in the camps." Then you don't denounce this publicly. You keep quiet about the situation inside of the camps. So are we really here for the people's rights? Or you're here because of your money.[00:33:37] Chris: Wow. And I'm curious about this notion of open borders in the context of tourism as well. Right. Because tourism operates largely on this notion of open borders. Those who can fly, those who can travel, those who have the right passports can go wherever they want.Although you have to go through customs, you have to go through security when you go to a new country, of course, and usually there's limits on how long you can stay and things like that. Generally, the pro-immigration movements there is also very much this kind of discourse, this fight for open borders in terms of asylum seekers and essentially making it easier to create that kind of hospitality that's needed for people in flight, people in exile.And so I'm curious about the dynamic between the two. Right? In a lot of places in southern Europe especially, you see graffiti that says, "migrants, welcome. Tourists, go home." Right? And so I'm curious what you think of these two major avenues or channels of movement in the world between tourism and then the movement of people in flight or in exile.[00:34:56] Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah, actually tourism is seen as a very positive thing. And then we already know that actually the reason doesn't necessarily need to be positive.It can make very expensive, your city. If we talk about some countries in the world, it can bring you some pedophiles too; misuse and abuse children. You know, like tourism can bring many good things, many bad things, like everything in life. No. Right. We always say that we don't cross borders, borders crossed us, separate us.So in Spain, for example. I say Spain because it's my country and we also operate there. To listen like, "ah, because we need more children because you know, like birth rate is pretty low," and it's true that we are not having so many children anymore. And we young people and then this and that, but then we have all these people who are, have migrated already, who are living in Spain from different countries, and who are young people that will be ready to study and to get education and to start working pretty fast because we are talking about people who are maybe like teenagers. And so, but the system doesn't try to help them. Doesn't really put any effort. You know, in a Spain, there is one term that is "MENA," to speak about people who have migrated, who are children. So, they normally the fastest called the MENA just to dehumanize one person, because you're using just these letters, you know, MENA means like "Menor Extranjera, Non-Acompanado" (Unaccompanied Underage Foreigner). So you're using just this term look out children, you know, so it's a way of criminalizing them and at the same time, there are no proper initiatives to integrate these people to the system, for example. Then at the same time, we have a lot of tourism and now we have this digital nomad visa.Hmm. So look, in order you get the digital nomad visa, you need to have a pretty high income. Yeah. Right. So, that means that actually this, okay, " these people come to my town and then they'll have a lot of money." But yeah, they can make very expensive here your city. I don't know if you've seen both in Libson and in Medellin there is already protest against digital nomads because they're making everything expensive. Also in Medellin, it seems that prositution Increases, so rich people are abusing people who are poor, women, of course, who are poor.And it raise the prostitution according to what I read and what I report because I also write about these kind of things with colleagues that I interviewed. So yeah, I know, like for example, it's not open borders. Open borders. Last year we were telling, that if we will allow the people who are in the Balkans to enter European Union and to ask for asylum, and also we're asking those of Europe to respect their own law.We're not asking for something very big. We're telling them respect your own law and your own international agreements and respect the human rights. Yeah. Which is basic. We always told like if these people who were in the Balkans were not so much, really, not so much would enter, there would not be crisis anymore.All this s**t would not be happening. And last year we could see when Ukrainian war started and selling millions of people who arriving into European Union countries and could get a house very fast. The children could go to study in short time. They could get integrated into the system in very few times.So this means that we are being racist because why we can host, I don't know how many millions of people born in Ukraine and keeping the war in Ukraine and we cannot host some thousand people who come from Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan. This is racism, basically. Mm-hmm. Because in the Balkans, you find families who are three years in the Balkans, who have children. Three years without going to school.People who are getting themselves poor. You know, people when they left, it's not so easy to do this, this trip. It's very expensive. It's very hard. They have a business, for example, in Afghanistan, and then they go threatened by the Talibans or the one that the children are taken by the talibans to fight whatever.And then they say, okay, let's sell our business. Let's sell our house, our lands. They call this money and let's go to search for the future for our family. Then, they see themselves three years and the children don't go to school, that they cannot work, that they spend all their money every day. Cause there is no way to really find a job or get an income.So finally, this is racism. All this difference between a person comes from Ukraine and a person that is coming from Syria. [00:39:20] Chris: Wow. In regards to the relationships that are built between the Kitcheners of No Name Kitchen and the asylum seekers, do any of those friendships end up developing once those people have found a place to settle, a place to stay?[00:39:41] Barbara: Yeah, yeah, of course. It's true that now, it's not so easy to be spend time together because the police is really much disturbing you because you're giving a jacket to someone. So, it doesn't allow you to spend so much time anymore, together. But in general, what we promote in No Name Kitchen and what is very important for us, that we are really together.No, because we are people. All of us, we are people, just in different circumstances. We're actually all of us migrants. Some of them are local people as well, that are supporting us. Cause many local people support our activities. Maybe not always so active because finance is very tired to be every day in your own hometown doing these things.I'm facing all these challenges. For us it's very important to create networks of trust and mutual understanding. So, it's not only you are helping someone. No, no, it is not about this. It's about, you are there, you are learning with a, with a person. We are spending time with a person.It's amazing for me being volunteer with No Name Kitchen is amazing because you can learn so much. You can meet so much amazing people. And I tell you that I'm here with a colleague that she was with me in Bosnia. And then next week, some friends who live in different European countries are gonna come to visit us. One is originally from Syria. The other originally from Pakistan. Mm-hmm. They're gonna come here to visit because now they are already have made their lives. One is living in France. The other is living in the Netherlands. They have their papers, everything, so now they can travel freely around European Union.So this is very, very, very important for us. And actually these networks are very valuable because maybe some person arrives later to some country and then this person has already friends in this country. Mm. [00:41:16] Chris: Right. And in some instances, some of the people do end up returning, or maybe not returning is the right word, but reuniting with No Name Kitchen and other places to help perhaps serve those on the move for a time.[00:41:30] Barbara: Yeah. Like taking papers in Europe, it takes very long, so it's not so easy. And we started only in 2017. So many of the people that we know, they're still on the way to get papers. Really long process. No, but for example, there is this friend of me who is from Iran and I met him in Kladusa, in Bosnia, and now he's living in France.And the other day he wrote me. He was with two colleagues of me that he also met them in Bosnia and he was visiting them and the newborn baby they have been. And he would really like to come to volunteer with No Name Kitchen because now he has documents that he could. But at same time, because of the working conditions finally in this racist work, sometimes cannot be the same for everybody.Right. So he doesn't have the chance to just get one whole month to come. But at some point, yeah, he's thinking about coming. It can be difficult cause then I tell you that police sometimes are chasing people who are not white. So, sometimes it can be difficult, but at the same time. But yeah. Well the idea is like many of our friends now at some point will start not getting, or are getting documents. So, this is a network of people with people and for people. Mm [00:42:31] Chris: mm Amazing. Yeah. It does remind me of the philosophies and practices of mutual aid, (of apoyo mutuo). [00:42:38] Barbara: But it's very important. The other day I was telling to my therapist because I go to the therapy because of the stress.Yeah. So, we're talking about. And last time I was on the field and then she was telling like, yeah, " who helps you when you're helping?" It's like no, you cannot imagine like people on the move have really tried to help you, as well.You know? Like they cannot help us with that distribution. They can help us giving a lot of support. For example, when I was living in Bosnia and I had like a free day, I would go to my friends, to their squats. They had a very warm stove there. And I would be as there, they would cook for me, know, we would be playing board games, we would be laughing and that was my holiday.And for me that was a great moment, where to spend my free day, with them, and they would be taking care of me because they knew I was very stressed and they wanted me to be spoiled one day.[00:43:28] Chris: It's beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah. The kind of hospitality that can arise in times of conflict, right? Mm-hmm. And so in a time of border crises seems to exist in so many parts of the world, so few people at least in my purview or my understanding actually know about these border crises or understand the complexity around them.And so I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for people who are either critical of immigration or people who want to understand the issues more deeply, and of course those who support asylum secrets. [00:44:16] Barbara: Yeah, I mean finally we're in the era of information, right? So if you wanna get information, good information, because you need to identify the misinformation sources.If you wanna get good information, there is a lot. So yes, please get informed and also go with people that have migrating and talk to them. Cause you'll meet them and you'll spend a lot of time with them and then you'll see how are their stories behind. And also, I really recommend people to get more information about this because I cannot believe that in the 21st century we are using the money of our taxes to pay for torture.This is just insane because this is torture, really, what is happening at the borders of the European Union. And I guess many people in European Union countries do not want their taxes to be spent like this. But at the same time, they don't get informed about this. There are so many sources of information. From us in our social media, we keep informing on a daily basis about the different things that are happening always. But in general, there are very good newspapers all over in different languages where you can get good information and also go to people and talk to people. [00:45:21] Chris: Yeah. It's I mean, go to people and talk to the people. The people that you know, you would perhaps not even talk to, just criticize, without having anything to do with.Right. And that most of those people that have an incredible unwillingness, like they're willing to criticize, but they're not willing to go and talk to the people who they're criticizing. Right. And it's really interesting because as you were talking about earlier, you know, Lisbon and Medellin and the backlash against digital nomads and things like that.This is happening as well in Oaxaca although against tourists in general. Some people ask me like, well, what do we do? And, and I say, well, why don't you go talk to the tourists? Ask them why they're here. Ask them what their life is like, because there's this image, this single or singular image of the tourist and it's a caricature, it's a stereotype, and it says that all tourists are exactly the same. They come for the same reasons. They do the same things. And they have nothing to do with us, right? They're totally the opposite of who we are and all of this stuff.And it's very, very similar to the way that people especially people who speak poorly of immigrants or people on the move also view this and just this unwillingness to speak with the other, right. Hmm. So much to consider. My plate is full with all you've offered today. And I'm deeply grateful to have been on the receiving end of your words today. I'm curious, Barbara how might our listeners get involved in No Name Kitchen?How might they find out more and follow your work online. [00:47:05] Barbara: Yeah, welcome everybody. We have Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter. And also now we started some months ago in TikTok. But yeah, we're on social media and also we try very much to always report everything we know, so people on the move know that they can rely on us if they want to denounce something publicly. And here we are for that. Welcome everybody to follow our task and to get to know more about the situation at the borders.[00:47:31] Chris: Thank you so much. On behalf of our listeners, it's been an honor to speak with you and, and to really get a deeper perspective onto these notions of exile and immigration and borders and border crises happening in the world now. So I'm really grateful for your willingness to speak with us today and to be able to add that layer to the conversation. [00:47:53] Barbara: Thanks very much to you for, invite us, for, invite me, for give voice to the situation and everybody welcome to follow what we do.Thank you very much. [00:48:01] Chris: Thank you, Barbara. Take care. [00:48:04] Barbara: Take care. Bye. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome from  Jon, Eric, Brad and Chris Thank you Tyler M, Zack P, Helen H, Lars J Announcements and News:  Join the League of Cooperative Gaming Discord for a big LOTR LCG weekend: August 18-20th. Invite link: https://discord.gg/SahjuTx    Christen that Ship winners!  Congratulations to all! Please email us at cardboardoftherings@gmail.com  2022 Swag plus Daan's book Max, alias Whispers; The seas Whisperer Eddie Ashton; USS Eden's Promise Kevin Zorena; USS Second Breakfast  2020 fellowship alt arts Mike Kozlik (Galion on COTR Discord); Belladonna Sebastian Wojta; The Deckbox of the Seas 2020 Fellowship balrog deck box, threat tracker, dividers, and one package of Eye of Sauron card sleeves   Jeff Maynes (Razumikhin); The Elencirya Vingilittle RRR: Multiplayer CotR Mailbag! Who done it? Chad has been taken out by a player card! AMA  Farewell!

Welcome from Chad, Jon, and Chris Thank you Niall H, Raymond W, Sean S, Nick A Announcements and News:  Dream-Chaser Campaign is out! Two Towers Reprint Announced FFG LotR Events at Gen Con GameZenter/Artiforge no longer printing Nightmare or POD RRR: Multiplayer Vengeance of Mordor Top 4/Bottom 3 (Someone's best is another's 3rd worst)  AMA  Farewell!

On this episode of the End of Tourism Podcast, I'm joined by Joana and Davide of Stop Despejos (Stop Evictions). Based in Lisbon (Portugal), Stop Despejos is an anti-capitalist, feminist and anti-racist, horizontal political collective, fighting for the right to housing and the right to the city. Through mutual aid, direct action, obstruction of evictions and media campaigns, they defend the right of inhabitants to keep living in their homes and neighborhoods against institutional racism, soaring rental prices, the commodification of housing, touristification and gentrification.As an autonomous grassroots movement, Stop Despejos believes that a trulyinclusive city can only be achieved by collective organization and solidarity networks between its inhabitants.Show NotesThe Question of Rent in LisbonThe Arrival of Ryan Air and Airbnb in PortugalThe Golden Visa SchemeThe Backlash Against ForeignersCan be Change Happen Through Political Parties or Only at the Grassroots?How to Build Solidarity in a CommunityHow Can We Live More Meaningfully?HomeworkStop Despejos Official WebsiteStop Despejos YouTubeStop Despejos FacebookAldrava Co-opHousing Not ProfitTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Good morning, Joanna and Davide to the end of Tourism podcast. Thanks for joining me today.[00:00:07] Davide: Thank you. Good morning, chris. Oh, good afternoon.[00:00:10] Joana: Thank you for having, yes, good afternoon. Thank you for having us.[00:00:14] Chris: My pleasure, my honor. Now, I'd like, since we're always doing this virtually, and since there's always time zones to deal with and that kind of thing, I'm hoping that you'd both be able to illustrate a little about where you find yourselves today and what the world looks like there a few days after these mass demonstrations that we'll discuss shortly.[00:00:37] Joanne: Yes, well, I'm I'm in Alfama which is a really old neighborhood in the center of Lisbon. Actually Davide lives in the same neighborhood. And today, the weather is great. It's really sunny and you start to see a lot of tourists. You start to notice that you know, these amounts of tourists that we were used to see before the pandemic starts showing up again.And honestly, I'm still recovering from the, the demonstration during the weekend because we were what, like three months working for this demonstration, probably around three, four months. So yeah, it was a lot of hard work, but it was worth it at the end for sure.[00:01:27] Davide: I, I am in the same neighborhood in Alfama, and the sky is perfectly blue. It's classic Lisbon. It's a city that everybody loves.[00:01:38] Chris: Thank you, David. Debbie Day. Thank you, Joanna. And so you both come to us today on behalf of an organization called Stop Despejos. Now, before we get into the gritty details of the demonstrations, I'm wondering if you two would be willing to share a bit about the history of the organization, why it was started, and perhaps when and by whom,[00:02:07] Davide: Yeah, it, it's called Stop Despejos. It just means "stop eviction." It was founded in in 2017, about six years ago because at that time... In 2012, during Troika there was, after, after the financial crisis crisis in Portugal, I mean all over the world in Portugal the International Monetary Fund and the European Union understood that there was a great opportunity for real estate market in tourism in Portugal.And so they convinced the government, the right-wing government to change the law about renting. And it was much, much simpler to evict people. Mm-hmm. It has become much simpler and one of the ways is actually not to renew contracts. Okay. So the contract normally lasts five years. So just five years after the new law, all people were evicted. And so including myself, and that's why we founded this organization. Wow. Joanna, do you have anything to add in that regard?[00:03:18] Joana: Yes, I joined during 2018, so about an year after David joined. Actually, I also got evicted and it kind of started because of that, like I was in a really old place in the center.And my landlord wanted to increase the rent for more than 300 euros. Wow. So that's the thing, like. There is no rent control happening in Portugal. If you are landlord and if your house is falling apart you can ask for whichever price you desire.So, by that time I was doing some research, like thinking to myself, this cannot be legal. Like this is insane. And then I found out that it was indeed legal. And then I was doing another research to see if someone was fighting against this. So that's how I, I found out about Stop Despejos.And by that time, my ex-boyfriend also had some issues with this landlord. So, yeah, that's how I got to Stop Despejos I'm there since 2018. It's also an autonomous collective. So we are not connected to any political party. We are self-sufficient. And we are anti-capitalist as well.And we also work together with Habita, which is also a housing rights association that also fights, evictions, and provides legal advice to people that are on the risk of addiction. Mm-hmm.[00:05:01] Chris: Yeah. And that name popped up as well, Habita, in some of the news press releases that came out regarding the demonstrations of this past weekend.And so maybe we could start from there while it's still fresh in your minds with these recent actions that were organized by, Stop Despejo s. Nice. That came to pass this weekend and, and culminated in, in marches and protests on the 1st of April.My first question is what did each of you see over the course of the protests and what has been the response in the aftermath?[00:05:37] Joana: So this protest was organized not only by Stop Despejos and Habita was also by a lot of different collectives and associations, not only the housing rights collectives, also people that got in involved, dozens of different organizations that were preparing and working for this protest.We got around 20,000 people on the streets. I'm not good with numbers. David is the mathematician. But yes, around 20,000 people on the streets, which is massive for Portugal, to be honest.There wasn't the housing rights protests in Lisbon. I think the last one was organized by Stop Despejos and Habita, which was during 2018, if I'm not mistaken. So yes, personally I wasn't expecting that much people on the streets, but it was really beautiful to see this amount of people organized and marching the streets and asking not only for better housing, but also the right to belong to the city.You know, to have a city that it's not only made for tourists or for or for the rich or for private investors, but for a real inclusive city that is made for its people, for the people that works there, for the people that that lives there. So, that was really beautiful. It was beautiful to watch people shouting. It was really awesome.[00:07:13] Chris: I imagine that being able to see, that amount of people, and not necessarily the number, that kind of abstract 20,000, but the number of people that you would've seen in the streets as well is a really deep way to measure the discontent and the crisis as opposed to just imagining that so many people or just like a few people share these sentiments, right.[00:07:38] Joana: Yes, of course. And you would see everyone on the streets. Like, you would see people that living on the city center, but also people that live in the social neighborhoods, in the outskirts of the city as well.Like all of them together demanding better housing and a better city and rent controls. So it was, it was amazing. When I woke up the next morning, I felt really grateful, even though there was some, there was some police violence at the end of the demonstration. Still, I woke up feeling really grateful for that day, for sure.[00:08:14] Chris: Thank you. And David, how, what was your impression of the demonstrations?[00:08:21] Davide: Yeah, it was, it was impressive. Let me say that Habita is a part of a European coalition called European Action Coalition for the Right to Housing and to the City. And together with Habita, we organized the outing Action Day every year.But we could feel it, we could feel it because we have been organizing some preliminary meeting and they were full of people. I mean, you can feel this moment when the people wants to take some action and we could really feel it.It was great.[00:08:57] Chris: In fact[00:08:59] Davide: our previous campaign was called " Retomar la Ciudad" (Take Back the City). Mm. And we really felt that for one day we took the city. Mm-hmm. It, it was great because. I mean, when you are walking in such a big demonstration and you look back and you see the street full of people and you know that you and your comrades are responsible somehow for that, it, it is really an amazing feeling. And now we will see where, what will happen. This depends on us, but also on, on the willingness of other people to, to join ouraction.[00:09:38] Chris: So doing, you know, the research that I could online when I started looking up the protests Lisbon, online in the English speaking world.Anyways, there was clearly this kind of Associated Press press release that came out because every Anglophone media outlet that I could find that had put something out in this regard had the exact same wording. Yes. Right. And, and you, you can start to realize very quickly what's happening in that regard.But one of the things that was written in the press release is this as follows. And it said that"the figures released by Confi which collects data on housing shows that rents in Lisbon, which is a tourist hotspot, have jumped 65% since 2015, and sale prices have skyrocketed 137% during the same period.According to another real estate data company, Casafari, rents increased 37% last year alone, more than current figures in Barcelona or Paris," which are two of the most overt touristed or visited cities in the world."Low wages in high rents have made Lisbon the world's third least viable city to live in, according to a study by insurance brokers, CIA Landlords."And that's not a joke. CIA landlords.Anyways, so I imagine reading this, I imagine that it hasn't always been like this. Right. And I'm wondering if you, could each tell our listeners a little bit about how this came to pass? I know you mentioned the change of the law, of the five year lease law and I guess how you've both seen the city change in the course of your time there.[00:11:37] Davide: Yeah, I, I must say that apart from the new renting law, so what happened also in, I think 2013, it, that Ryan Air came to Lisbon together with Airbnb and this destroyer, I mean, completely ruin in the city. And before that Ryan Air was only flying to Porto. And then the new government was lobbied to allow Ryan Air. Then Airbnb was invented.And Libo is a city where people I mean, there, there's not much job. So people really look into Airbnb as a way to make money. It is so easy. I mean, the only thing that we can sell is ourself, and they were very willing to sell ourselves. Mm-hmm. To, to make a decent salary.I mean, it was really perfect because it's full of people that wants to come to Lisbon because it's such a beautiful city, and we just have this to sell, the city itself.And so all the neighborhoods, the central neighborhood of Lisbon were flooded with Airbnb. It's really incredible. And with Airbnb in town like that, without any regulation, without any regulation, I mean, everybody can rent how many houses or floods you want in whatever situation they are.So the price is skyrocketed. You go from 1000 euro per square meter to buy a house. Now it's 5,000. Wow. I mean, people, maybe bought a flat for 100,000 euro. Now they sell it for 500,000 euros right there. Wow.And now it's, it's even getting worse because, so when in 20 17, I was evicted. My rent passed from 500 euros per month to almost double. But now I, I know people renting a flat, a small flat, like for 1500 euros per month. And the salary is still the same. And then a lot of real estate investment. Really, I mean all, all the big players in the real estate in investment, they just came to town.They started to build luxury condos. There are la luxury condos everywhere in town. Mm. Really? Everywhere. It's crazy. I mean, you see construction sites everywhere, but for room for nobody. Cause the, all these luxury condominiums are, are actually empty. They're just houses that are bought and then sold after a few years and things like that.they're just made to store money essentially. Mm. So there are, there are a lot of economic factor, like one is tourism, and the other real estate speculation.[00:14:30] Joana: And this is all also promoted by the state itself. It's not, yeah. It's not just a matter of, you know, it is the state also giving tax benefits to these private investors, also to digital nomads, you know, that come here and they can, they are the ones that can pay all these higher rents because the minimum wage in Portugal is around 740 euros.And you can find, and there's basements that are 700 euros per month basement. I dunno nowadays exactly how much is a one bed one bedroom apartment in the center. But I would say it's around 1000 euros. You can easily find a one bedroom apartment for 1000 was per month.Yeah.[00:15:23] Chris: Speaking of tourism and Airbnb, we can't really speak about these themes anymore without speaking about there's other names we could use, but digital nomads. And this was another thing that was brought up in the English press releases is around this question in Europe that referred to as the "Golden Visa" And in the report it's written that "the current socialist government announced last month that a housing package among other measures, ended the controversial Golden Visa scheme and banned new licenses for Airbnb properties.Critics, however, say it is not enough to lower prices in the short term." Now, given that, I imagine that you two make up some of these critics, I'm curious if you could explain a little bit for our listeners about what that Golden Visa program is or was and what it has done to the city and culture in Lisbon, if not the country as a whole.[00:16:26] Joana: The Golden visa program is basically the state giving tax benefits to residents from outside of European Union. And all they need to do basically is to buy a property for at least half a million euros and also to create some jobs. But in practice they just need to buy a property.So what happens is a lot of companies are also increasing the prices of houses because they know that someone will buy it for those prices. So that's one of the consequences of the Golden visa. And actually the government is not ending the golden Visa. It's just making some changes and changing the name because they're still giving tax benefits to someone that wants to invest in Portugal. So this is basically the so-called socialist government financing people and companies that are already rich.So it's basically the state giving money to the rich. And these measures are not enough. I mean, this government is only socialist by the name. It's not socialist in practice because even those measures that aim to put Airbnbs back in the market, it's still the state giving tax benefits to those landlords, to those people that own Airbnb.[00:17:55] Davide: Let maybe just a little bit more precise, you know Portugal belongs to the Shengen area. So if you have a Portuguese visa, you can travel everywhere in Europe. So, this Golden Visa program was a way for any outside the European Union to get a visa for the Shengen area by buying a property. And so it is really something terrible. Mm, I mean, to actually sell visas to rich people. It has to do a lot, not just with the fact of making the housing market crazy because of course the, the price is skyrocketed, but also it has to do with money laundering.And it was really, really a bad thing for Portugal in general. And also this idea of digital nomads. It's somehow similar. It targets other kind of people, not the super rich from, I don't know, China or whatever, but it, it targets people working probably in some startup in California or places like that.Just a way to make life easier in Portugal for rich people and more miserable for people in Portugal because the problem is that the economy is not very solid in Portugal. And so instead of investing money in building a better economy, they just trying to attract people that already have money, right?It's becoming like economically very depending of money from abroad, from money, from tourist, money from people that actually work abroad. Just a nice place to live for people from outside and the people from inside. Well, too bad for them.[00:19:48] Joanne: Yeah. The main issue is that the digital nomads usually come to live here earning salaries, wages from their home country. So they come to live here with salaries from the United States, for instance. So for them it's not, paying 800 euros per rent is really cheap. Which is not for us. So, that's the inequality here.[00:20:11] Chris: Yeah. And, and that the place is more often than not, I mean, you could say almost always, but we'll say more often than not temporary in the eyes of the digital nomad, the tourist, perhaps even the people who purchase the golden visa because there's always this sense of, well, I could do this somewhere else, right? Because there's other places to be a digital nomad. There's other places to be a tourist. There's other places to get golden visas and on and on. And so I wanted to ask about the kind of, we'll say blowback or perhaps xenophobia that can arise from these things and does, and has. You know, it's something that I've seen here in Oaxaca over the last seven or eight years, especially in the last couple of years with inundation or flooding of this place with digital nomads, over tourism, Airbnb.And it's been hard personally, but it's been easy visually to watch a kind of resentment and xenophobia grow against foreigners here as a result of this gentrification and culture loss. And so I'm curious if you two have seen anything similar in that regard in Lisboa or how has the general response been, and I think it's important to say here as well, that at least at the beginning when Airbnb tends to create this strangle hold in a tourist destination that a lot of the people who are, who are renting these flats or homes are locals. Right? And then certainly later on you see companies, corporations like Blackstone in Europe taking over.These issues, we often try to make them simple to understand when in fact they're extremely complex and complicated. And so I guess I'm curious what you both have seen in regards to the loss or perceived loss of culture in Lisboa and the reactions from locals in regards to that against the foreigner, or perhaps against the systemic structures.[00:22:21] Joana: Yeah, it's a really, it's a really interesting question. I would let David go first if you, if you have already something on your mind.[00:22:29] Davide: Well, I don't think Portuguese people are very vocal in the xenophobia.As a foreigner myself I never faced it. I mean, in general they're quite polite. Racism is always against black people, or the gypsy. I mean, there is some vague resentment, against tourists, but not too much. You, you don't feel it too much? I mean, I don't feel it, so...[00:23:03] Joana: yes. Me neither.I mean, you have people that feel really annoyed by tourists, especially people that lives in the center, obviously. They feel annoyed, but I wouldn't call it hatred, you know, in the same way that I would call hatred towards immigrants from Nepal or from India.Those are the ones that I would say that get more hatred and also the gypsy community. And people from social neighborhoods. I mean, immigrants that live, in social neighborhoods. So I wouldn't say that there's a lot of hatred towards tourist themselves.I would say only like annoyance, because there's also people that stand that really believes that without tourism we would have no economy. You know, they cannot imagine the end of tourism, let's put it this way. They aren't capable, you know, of imagining a new economy that wouldn't depend on tourism.And you could see that during the pandemic. So I wouldn't really call, it hate, only annoyance. Let's put it that way. Yeah.[00:24:19] Chris: And you had mentioned earlier that the current socialist government is socialist by name and not in practice. And I'm curious, how Stop Despejos sees the necessity of making change from the grassroots, or if there's a possibility of doing that on the electoral level.[00:24:43] Joanne: It has to happen on the grassroot level. Yes. Yes. We do not trust that a political party will solve the issue because, this is an issue that has been increasing of it over the years.And the state itself helps the increase of this issue. So we truly believe that in order for the change to happen, we need to be organized. People need to be organized. It's only through those grassroots movements that we feel that we are able to really create a radical change, a structural change.This is beyond political parties. I think it's more about the people and those grassroots movement. That's why we do not associate ourselves to any political party, even though some of them try. But yes our work is based on social movements and with people.We have tried to stop a lot of evictions that were not made by private landlords. They were made by the state. So, that's another reason. Me personally, I don't trust the state or political parties because the status itself is also able to evict and to destroy people, the right to adequate housing and the right to live in the city.So that's why we need to work with people and to work with the grassroot movement.[00:26:11] Davide: I would say that we are like more like let's say ecologists movement. We are really for system change and and not to change inside the system. But I must say that some people that used to belong to our organization, that really still very close to our organization, they founded a new movement for a referendum to ban Airbnb. Okay.This would be like using the system, but without passing through parties really to use some direct democracy tool inside the system. And now possibly next year there will be this referendum to ban Airbnb. Wow. We don't know because such a local referendum was never used in the history of Lisbon.So it is a tool that only exists in theory. In practice, we do not know. But still, this is something that may be the most anarchist in our group do not like, but in general, we are not against it. The use of this referendum tools.[00:27:19] Joana: Yeah, I think that we are not saying that, you know, every politician is the same or that every party is the same, of course, that we recognize that, you know, some politicians may be better than others.But at the same time it's what David was the saying. We want to make radical changes not outside of the system, not inside the system. Because even with good examples like the mayor of Barcelona, the system itself is so corrupt that it's really hard to make changes within the system.It's not just one person with good intentions that is gonna change the system.[00:27:59] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day, these issues that you've both spoken to are everyone's issues. They're not left issues, they're not right issues. They affect everyone. And you can kind of see through that and that the political spectrum in that regard is just incredibly divisive.And so I wanted to ask you both a little bit about, your advice suggestions around solidarity.Here in Oaxaca, it's a city that's been more and more touristed over the last we'll say 40 or 50 years. But really not on the tourist map until the last 10 years or so. And then at the end of the lockdowns became this kind of massive escape destination for a lot of Americans and Canadians and Europeans as well.And so there's this sudden kind of, oh, this is too much. And we never imagined it could be this bad, but suddenly we're there and it's here and we don't know how to deal with it. And maybe because of the nature of the history and culture and politics in this part of the world, but there isn't necessarily this, this level of communication, network building, solidarity that there is, for example, in Southern Europe. And so my first question in that regard is, what kind of advice would you offer people working with social movements here and in other parts of the world who need to build solidarity among the, citizenry, but also between organizations who haven't done that before?What advice would you have for them?[00:29:52] Davide: Well, difficult question. Yeah, difficult question. I don't know if we are such a, a good model because our results haven't been that great. But[00:30:02] Joana: it's a long process and I believe that we are still in that process, like in the middle of that process of building solidarity with different movements. I saw more solidarity perhaps during this organization of the protests of the demonstration. But I think it was a process that started already during the pandemic.So it's a long and and hard process to build solidarity between movements because most of the time, I mean, we do not get paid to do this political activity. So, you know, people have their own jobs and their own lives. And sometimes it's really hard to do something as simple as planning an assembly with different organizations or collectives.So I would say I mean, the best advice I could give is to be patient and to accept, really, that is going to be a process that sometimes you feel like you are all by yourself, that you are the only collective doing something. And other times you'll have a lot of people in your public assemblies.So, it's a long process and my best advice would be that, and also to respect the differences between several collectives and organizations and between people. What's the main goal?What's glue sticking all of it together. What are your enemies? Basically, what are the enemies that you are fighting? What type of city or what type of country would you like to live in? So, use your imagination and use it as a fuel also to create goals and to plan.[00:31:45] Davide: One thing is, is to be well organized as much as possible. And being organized for us, it's like we are a perfectly horizontal organization. We don't have any leader, but like something simple. Every time we meet, I mean every week we have one moderator, one taking notes.And then another thing which is important, it's kind of a blend between action and study. It is important to study, I mean, to, to growone's understanding but also it is important to actually act. You need to actually meet people that are in this situation you are fighting against. You need both, both action and, and study. And then one other thing is never get overwhelmed because when you start working, doing activity with people that are being evicted or losing their homes, these are let's say emotionally very heavy situation.And more often than not, these people are actually losing their home. You cannot do too much. And so it is important that you don't feel guilty for that. You don't spend all your life try to save others people life. Because if you do that for six months, then you quit the struggles. So it's better to keep like a lower profile, but to be consistent during the years.[00:33:19] Chris: Well thank you both for that. And then the other side of the question or the coin of the question. So, the first one was regarding social movements and then this next one is speaking to individuals. There's been this for me anyways, this clear view towards tourism as a kind of escapism that masquerades as freedom of choice, especially for those of us in the Americas, right?So the pandemic deepened that, to say the least. And as a result of people getting to choose where they live, the places they choose generally suffer as a result, you know, regardless of people's good intentions or even good behavior. And so sometimes it's hard to resist the urge to blame the foreigner and to focus on them instead of the system and the structures of oppression that it produces.But at the same time, we need the foreigner, in the context of digital nomadism and tourism and the golden visa, we need each of them, each of those people, to understand their consequence in the world. And so finally, I'd like to ask you both, what advice would you have for the tourists and expats who want to experience Portugal or who already live there, who perhaps want to act and proceed as responsible residents, for those who would want to visit.[00:34:53] Davide: Tourist must know that if he comes to Lisbon or she comes toLisbon. She will spend most time standing at other tourist like him. Just like an ecosystem just made of tourist, of tourist. If tourist here live actually in a strange ecosystem made of, just, of tourist then I think it's kind of not very nice experience.So to be more, more precise,half of the time a tourist will look at his smartphone and half of the time at other tourists like him. I think this, this way of leaving or traveling, it is very superficial. You don't get anything to come to Lisbon or to any other place in the world just to spend time look at on a smartphone or looking at other tourists like you.But this is like more moral statement. I mean, people should look inside themselves to start doing things which are more meaningful instead of just doing things that they happen to do because everybody does the same thing.[00:36:01] Joana: Yeah. It's a difficult question. I agree with, with David. I also worked on the tourist industry years ago. And I remember I got the feeling that the tourists in Lisbon kind of felt deceived. They would ask me all the time, where are the locals? Where can I find locals? You know, I only see tourists around me. Like, can you recommend me a place where, where the locals go and so on.So yeah, I would say the tourism basically is not worth it. You know, it's not worth going to Lisbon spending holidays. It's not just a matter of personal responsibility because I understand that people work and they feel the need to spend the holidays on some cheap destination and Lisbon is really cheap for a lot of tourists.It's more about systemic change, but at the same time, I believe that we still need to have some sort of personal responsibility. So I would say just go somewhere else where it's not too touristified, just try to choose another destination that is not totally exploited by the mass tourism to the golden and You know, and the digital knows honestly, I don't know how, how they could be more responsible because they are taking advantage of a situation, where that situation is only possible because the locals are getting affected by it. Maybe try to get involved in your local social movements. Get involved, try to know the neighbors and to do something. Use your privilege in order to change something. But be aware that you are only here because you are privileged enough to benefit from our government. Mm-hmm.[00:37:56] Chris: I think that's really important as well, this notion of, if you're gonna go and live in a place, understand the history, understand the culture, understand where you are, when you are, and get involved, right.Get involved with the social movements and the grassroots of the place. And so, you know, for our listeners or maybe people either visiting Portugal or living there as well, how might they find out more about Stop[00:38:24] Joanne: They can find us on social media.We have a Facebook page, also an Instagram page, and all of our assemblies are open to the public. Everybody can go there. Usually our meetings are on an association called City Guide. In the center, in one of the most gentrified areas of the city center.So it's cool that we have our meetings there. And it's every Mondays at 7:30 PM. Usually we start late cause we're in Portugal. But everybody's welcome. Everybody's is more than welcome. You don't need to to be like a researcher or academic or to even suffer or to have suffered some kind of eviction.Everybody's welcome to our assemblies and to join.[00:39:15] Davide: I would like to say that it's really beautiful to be part of like a movement and a collective, like Stop Despejos. So, when after I joined, I was facing a difficult time in my life. And, and for me it was very important to, to be there. I mean, first of all, to see that there are people with bigger problem than mine.And then it's, for me, it's really a pose from my personal life. I go there and also must say that the people that are involved in this kind of struggle are in general pretty special people. So you meet people you would wouldn't normally meet at work or, or in a pub.It's really enriching things to do.[00:40:03] Chris: Fantastic. Well, I, I'll make sure all of those links for social media and the website are up on the end of tourism website when the episode launches. And from what I understand, there will be some extra media to share.Well, it's been a, a great pleasure to meet and speak with both of you, at least virtually, and maybe one day in person.You'll be welcome. You'll be welcome than welcome, Chris. Yes, likewise.[00:40:30] Davide: Thank you. Thank you.[00:40:31] Joana: Thank you so much, Chris. Thank you for having us. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

In this chat, Brandon and I zero in on the importance of holding our standards, while still prioritizing connection and relationship with our people. It's important for us to consider- is this a true pattern? Or is this an event? If it's an event, what's the best way to address that? Patterns on the other hand, have the power of life and death within our team. Good patterns are the target- allowing bad patterns can sabotage everything we work so hard for. Check it out and please share with your connections if it's valuable! - Chris Thank you sponsors! Liftify is for restorers who are looking to accelerate their online reviews. Consistent and fresh Google Reviews are critical to growing your online presence and establishing trust with your brand. Don't leave it to chance, partner with Liftify and let them capture the feedback your team has earned. https://www.liftify.com/floodlight C&R Magazine is the industry's oldest and longest running media outlet. The team brings restorers all the current news, developments, education and resources that impact our business and the teams we lead. From print media to podcasts, C&R ensures the industry news you need is accessible from anywhere. https://candrmagazine.com Floodlight Consulting Group provides customized consulting and training support for restoration companies looking to grow and scale their business. 100% Tailored to each client Formal consulting sessions for owners and key leaders Full one-on-one access to the Floodlight team and their network of industry experts https://www.floodlightgrp.com Thank you partners! We love our listeners and want them to have access to the very best in tech and supporting service providers possible. We've vetted each of our partners and highly recommend all of them as key assets to help ensure our listener's success. As a way to honor our listeners, each of them has provided competitive DISCOUNTS. Simply click on the link below and take advantage of our ongoing partnerships. https://www.floodlightgrp.com/partners

Join Brandon and I in this recast of our last visit with Ben of Restoration Rundown and Ironclad Restoration Marketing. It was a rad conversation- Ben's a great interviewer, and the convo was hard-hitting around leadership, sales in general, and commercial sales strategy. If you haven't checked out Ben's other shows, be sure to do that too. - Chris Thank you partners! We love our listeners and want them to have access to the very best in tech and supporting service providers possible. We've vetted each of our partners and highly recommend all them as key assets to help ensure our listener's success. As a way to honor our listeners, each of them has provided competitive DISCOUNTS. Simply click on the link below and take advantage of our ongoing partnerships. https://www.floodlightgrp.com/premier-partners Floodlight Consulting Group Equipping restoration business owners to establish processes, develop their teams, increase revenues and grow their profits. Floodlight Leadership Circles The Floodlight Leadership Circles are designed to empower restoration business owners and key leaders through education, training, coaching and community engagement. Monthly Sessions Open Office Hours Expanding Partnerships Of Industry Professionals Customer Segment Leaders Continually-Updated Content Library Rich Non-Market Competing Community https://www.floodlightgrp.com/leadershipcircles Individualized Operations Consulting and Training The Floodlight team provides customized consulting and training support for restoration companies looking to grow and scale their business. 100% Tailored to each client Formal consulting sessions for owners and key leaders Full one-on-one access to the Floodlight team and their network of industry experts https://www.floodlightgrp.com

Episode SummaryChris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at Turbot, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the latest events in cloud security, which leads to an interesting analysis from Chris on how legal departments obscure valuable information that could lead to fewer security failures in the name of protecting company liability, and what the future of accountability for security failures looks like. Chris and Corey also discuss the newest dangers in cloud security and billing practices, and Chris describes his upcoming cloud security conference, fwd:cloudsec. About ChrisChris Farris has been in the IT field since 1994 primarily focused on Linux, networking, and security. For the last 8 years, he has focused on public-cloud and public-cloud security. He has built and evolved multiple cloud security programs for major media companies, focusing on enabling the broader security team's objectives of secure design, incident response and vulnerability management. He has developed cloud security standards and baselines to provide risk-based guidance to development and operations teams. As a practitioner, he's architected and implemented multiple serverless and traditional cloud applications focused on deployment, security, operations, and financial modeling.Chris now does cloud security research for Turbot and evangelizes for the open source tool Steampipe. He is one of the organizers of the fwd:cloudsec conference (https://fwdcloudsec.org) and has given multiple presentations at AWS conferences and BSides events.When not building things with AWS's building blocks, he enjoys building Legos with his kid and figuring out what interesting part of the globe to travel to next. He opines on security and technology on Mastodon, Twitter and his website https://www.chrisfarris.comLinks Referenced: Turbot: https://turbot.com/ fwd:cloudsec: https://fwdcloudsec.org/ Mastodon: https://infosec.exchange/@jcfarris Personal website: https://chrisfarris.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn and we are here today to learn exciting things, steal exciting secrets, and make big trouble for Moose and Squirrel. Maybe that's the podcast; maybe that's the KGB, we're not entirely sure. But I am joined once again by Chris Farris, cloud security nerd at Turbot, which I will insist on pronouncing as ‘Turbo.' Chris, thanks for coming back.Chris: Thanks for having me.Corey: So, it's been a little while and it's been an uneventful time in cloud security with nothing particularly noteworthy happening, not a whole lot of things to point out, and honestly, we're just sort of scraping the bottom of the barrel for news… is what I wish I could say, but it isn't true. Instead, it's, “Oh, let's see what disastrous tire fire we have encountered this week.” What's top of mind for you as we record this?Chris: I think the most interesting one I thought was, you know, going back and seeing the guilty plea from Nickolas Sharp, who formerly was an employee at Ubiquiti and apparently had, like, complete access to everything there and then ran amok with it.Corey: Mm-hm.Chris: The details that were buried at the time in the indictment, but came out in the press releases were he was leveraging root keys, he was leveraging lifecycle policies to suppress the CloudTrail logs. And then of course, you know, just doing dumb things like exfiltrating all of this data from his home IP address, or exfiltrating it from his home through a VPN, which have accidentally dropped and then exposed his home IP address. Oops.Corey: There's so much to dive into there because I am not in any way shape or form, saying that what he did was good, or I endorse any of those things. And yeah, I think he belongs in prison for what he did; let's be very clear on this. But I personally did not have a business relationship with him. I am, however, Ubiquiti's customer. And after—whether it was an insider threat or whether it was someone external breaching them, Krebs On Security wound up doing a whole write-up on this and was single-sourcing some stuff from the person who it turned out, did this.And they made a lot of hay about this. They sued him at one point via some terrible law firm that's entire brand is suing media companies. And yeah, just wonderful, wonderful optics there and brilliant plan. But I don't care about the sourcing. I don't care about the exact accuracy of the reporting because what I'm seeing here is that what is not disputed is this person, who whether they were an employee or not was beside the point, deleted all of the audit logs and then as a customer of Ubiquiti, I received an email saying, “We have no indication or evidence that any customer data was misappropriated.” Yeah, you just turn off your logs and yeah, you could say that always and forever and save money on logging costs. [unintelligible 00:03:28] best practice just dropped, I guess. Clowns.Chris: So, yeah. And there's definitely, like, compliance and standards and everything else that say you turn on your logs and you protect your logs, and service control policies should have been able to detect that. If they had a security operations center, you know, the fact that somebody was using root keys should have been setting off red flags and causing escalations to occur. And that wasn't happening.Corey: My business partner and I have access to our AWS org, and when I was setting this stuff up for what we do here, at a very small company, neither of us can log in with root credentials without alarms going off that alert the other. Not that I don't trust the man; let's be very clear here. We both own the company.Chris: In business together. Yes.Corey: Ri—exactly. It is, in many ways, like a marriage in that one of us can absolutely ruin the other without a whole lot of effort. But there's still the idea of separation of duties, visibility into what's going on, and we don't use root API keys. Let me further point out that we are not pushing anything that requires you to send data to us. We're not providing a service that is software powered to people, much less one that is built around security. So, how is it that I have a better security posture than Ubiquiti?Chris: You understand AWS and in-depth cloud better. You know, it really comes down to how do you, as an AWS customer, understand all of the moving parts, all of the security tooling, all of the different ways that something can happen. And Amazon will say, “Well, it's in the documentation,” but you know, they have, what, 357 services? Are you reading the security pages of all of those? So, user education, I agree, you should have, and I have on all of my accounts, if anything pops up, if any IAM change happens, I'm getting text messages. Which is great if my account got compromised, but is really annoying when I'm actually making a change and my phone is blowing up.Corey: Yeah. It's worth pointing out as well that yes, Ubiquiti is publicly traded—that is understood and accepted—however, 93% of it is owned by their CEO-founder god-king. So, it is effectively one person's personal fiefdom. And I tend to take a very dim view as a direct result. When you're in cloud and you have suffered a breach, you have severely screwed something up somewhere. These breaches are never, “Someone stole a whole bunch of drives out of an AWS data center.” You have misconfigured something somewhere. And lashing out at people who reported on it is just a bad look.Chris: Definitely. Only error—now, of course, part of the problem here is that our legal system encourages people to not come forward and say, “I screwed up. Here's how I screwed up. Everybody come learn from my mistakes.” The legal professions are also there to manage risk for the company and they're like, “Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't even tell the government. Don't say anything.”Whereas we all need to learn from these errors. Which is why I think every time I do see a breach or I do see an indictment, I start diving into it to learn more. I did a blog post on some of the things that happened with Drizly and GitHub, and you know, I think the most interesting thing that came out of Drizly case was the ex-CEO of Drizly, who was CEO at the time of the breach, now has following him, for the rest of his life, an FTC order that says he must implement a security program wherever he goes and works. You know, I don't know what happens when he becomes a Starbucks barista or whatever, but that is on him. That is not on the company; that is on him.And I do think that, you know, we will start seeing more and more chief executive officers, chief security or information security officers becoming accountable to—or for the breaches and being personally accountable or professionally accountable for it. I think we kind of need it, even though, you know, there's only so much a CISO can do.Corey: One of the things that I did when I started consulting independently on AWS bills back in 2016 was, while I was looking at customer environments, I also would do a quick check for a few security baseline things. And I stopped doing it because I kept encountering a bunch of things that needed attention and it completely derailed the entire stated purpose of the engagement. And, frankly, I don't want to be running a security consultancy. There's a reason I focus on AWS bills. And people think I'm kidding, but I swear to you I'm not, when I say that the reason is in part because no one has a middle-of-the-night billing emergency. It is strictly a business-hours problem. Whereas with security, wake up.In fact, the one time I have been woken up in the middle of the night by a customer phone call, they were freaking out because it was a security incident and their bill had just pegged through the stratosphere. It's, “Cool. Fix the security problem first, then we'll worry about the bill during business hours. Bye.” And then I stopped leaving my phone off of Do Not Disturb at night.Chris: Your AWS bill is one of your indicators of compromise. Keep an eye on it.Corey: Oh, absolutely. We've had multiple engagements discover security issues on that. “So, what are these instances in Australia doing?” “We don't have anything there.” “I believe you're being sincere when you say this.”Chris: Yes.Corey: However.Chris: “Last month, you're at $1,000 and this month, you're at $50,000. And oh, by the way, it's the ninth, so you might want to go look at that.”Corey: Here's the problem that you start seeing in large-scale companies though. You or I wind up posting our IAM credentials on GitHub somewhere in public—and I do this from time to time, intentionally with absolutely no permissions attached to a thing—and I started look at the timeline of, “Okay 3, 2, 1, go,” with the push and now I start counting. What happens? At what time does the quarantine policy apply? When do I get an email alert? When do people start trying to exploit it? From where are they trying to exploit it?It's a really interesting thing to look into, just from the position of how this stuff all fits together and works. And that's great, but there's a whole ‘nother piece to it where if you or I were to do such a thing and actually give it admin credentials, okay, my, I don't know, what, $50, $100 a month account that I use for a lot of my test stuff now starts getting charged enormous piles of money that winds up looking like a mortgage in San Francisco, I'm going to notice that. But if you have a company that spending, I don't know, between ten and $20 million a month, do you have any idea how much Bitcoin you've got to be mining in that account to even make a slight dent in the overall trajectory of those accounts?Chris: In the overall bill, a lot. And in a particularly mismanaged account, my experience is you will notice it if you're monitoring billing anomalies on a per-account basis. I think it's important to note, you talked about that quarantine policy. If you look at what actually Amazon drops a deny on, it's effectively start EC2 instances and change IAM policies. It doesn't prevent anybody from listing all your buckets and exfiltrating all your data. It doesn't prevent anybody from firing up Lambdas and other less commonly used resources. Don't assume oh, Amazon dropped the quarantine policy. I'm safe.Corey: I was talking to somebody who spends $4 a month on S3 and they wound up suddenly getting $60 grand a day and Lambda charges, because max out the Lambda concurrency in every region and set it to mine crypto for 15 minutes apiece, yeah, you'll spend $60,000 a day to get, what $500 in crypto. But it's super economical as long as it's in someone else's account. And then Amazon hits them with a straight face on these things, where, “Please pay the bill.” Which is horrifying when there's several orders of magnitude difference between your normal bill and what happens post-breach. But what I did my whole post on “17 Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” followed by “17 More Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” and [unintelligible 00:12:00] about three services away from having a third one ready to go on that, the point is not, “Too many ways to run containers,” because yes, that is true and it's also amusing to me—less so to the containers team at AWS which does not have a sense of humor or sense of self-awareness of which they have been alerted—and fine, but every time you're running a container, it is a way to turn it into a crypto mining operation, in some way shape or form, which means there are almost 40-some-odd services now that can reasonably be used to spin up cryptocurrency mining. And that is the best-case breach scenario in a bunch of ways. It costs a bunch of money and things to clean up, but ‘we lost customer data.' That can destroy companies.Chris: Here's the worst part. Crypto mining is no longer profitable even when I've got stolen API keys because bitcoin's in the toilet. So, now they are going after different things. Actually, the most recent one is they look to see if your account is out of the SCS sandbox and if so, they go back to the tried-and-true way of doing internet scams, which is email spam.Corey: For me, having worked in operations for a very long time, I've been in situations where I worked at Expensify and had access to customer data there. I have worked in other finance companies—I worked at Blackrock. Where I work now, I have access to customer billing data. And let me be serious here for a second, I take all of these things seriously, but I also in all of those roles slept pretty well at night. The one that kept me up was a brief stint I did as the Director of Tech Ops at Grindr over ten years ago because unlike the stuff where I'm spending the rest of my career and my time now, it's not just money anymore.Whereas today, if I get popped, someone can get access to what a bunch of companies are paying AWS. It's scandalous, and I will be sued into oblivion and my company will not exist anymore and I will have a cloud hanging over my head forever. So, I have to be serious about it—Chris: But nobody will die.Corey: Nobody dies. Whereas, “Oh, this person is on Grindr and they're not out publicly,” or they live in a jurisdiction where that is punishable by imprisonment or death, you have blood on your hands, on some level, and I have never wanted that kind of responsibility.Chris: Yeah. It's reasonably scary. I've always been happy to say that, you know, the worst thing that I had to do was keep the Russians off CNN and my friends from downloading Rick and Morty.Corey: Exactly. It's, “Oh, heavens, you're winding up costing some giant conglomerate somewhere theoretical money on streaming subscriptions.” It's not material to the state of the world. And part of it, too, is—what's always informed my approach to things is, I'm not a data hoarder in the way that it seems our entire industry is. For the Last Week in AWS newsletter, the data that I collect and track is pretty freaking small.It's, “You want to sign up for the lastweekinaws.com newsletter. Great, I need your email address.” I don't need your name, I don't need the company you work at. You want to give me a tagged email address? Fine. You want to give me some special address that goes through some anonymizing thing? Terrific. I need to know where I'm sending the newsletter. And then I run a query on that for metrics sometimes, which is this really sophisticated database query called a count. How many subscribers do I have at any given point because that matters to our sponsors. But can we get—you give us any demographic? No, I cannot. I can't. I have people who [unintelligible 00:15:43] follow up surveys sometimes and that's it.Chris: And you're able to make money doing that. You don't have to collect, okay, you know, Chris's zip code is this and Bob's zip code is that and Frank's zip code is the other thing.Corey: Exactly.Chris: Or job titles, or you know, our mother's maiden name or anything else like that.Corey: I talk about what's going on in the world of AWS, so it sort of seems to me that if you're reading this stuff every week, either because of the humor or in spite of the humor, you probably are in a position where services and goods tied to that ecosystem would be well-received by you or one of the other 32,000 people who happen to be reading the newsletter or listening to the podcast or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's an old-timey business model. It's okay, I want to wind up selling, I don't know, expensive wristwatches. Well, maybe I'll advertise in a magazine that caters to people who have an interest in wristwatches, or caters to a demographic that traditionally buys those wristwatches. And okay, we'll run an ad campaign and see if it works.Chris: It's been traditional advertising, not the micro-targeting stuff. And you know, television was the same way back in the broadcast era, you know? You watched a particular show, people of that demographic who watched that particular show had certain advertisers they wanted.Corey: That part of the challenge I've seen too, from sponsors of this show, for example, is they know it works, but they're trying to figure out how to do any form of attribution on this. And my answer—which sounds self-serving, but it's true—is, there's no effective way to do it because every time you try, like, “Enter this coupon code,” yeah, I assure you, some of these things wind up costing millions of dollars to deploy at large companies at scale and they provide value for doing it. No one's going to punch in a coupon code to get 10% off or something like that. Procurement is going to negotiate custom contracts and it's going to be brought up maybe by someone who heard the podcast ad. Maybe it just sits in the back of their mind until they hear something and it just winds of contributing to a growing awareness of these things.You're never going to do attribution that works on things like that. People try sometimes to, “Oh, you'll get $25 in credit,” or, “We'll give you a free t-shirt if you fill out the form.” Yeah, but now you're biasing for people who find that a material motivator. When I'm debating what security suite I'm going to roll out at my enterprise I don't want a free t-shirt for that. In fact, if I get a free t-shirt and I wear that shirt from the vendor around the office while I'm trying to champion bringing that thing in, I look a little compromised.Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I am—[laugh] I got no response to that [laugh].Corey: No, no. I hear you. One thing I do want to talk about is the last time we spoke, you mentioned you were involved in getting fwd:cloudsec—a conference—off the ground. Like all good cloud security conferences, it's named after an email subject line.It is co-located with re:Inforce this year in Anaheim, California. Somewhat ominously enough, I used to live a block-and-a-half away from the venue. But I don't anymore and in fact, because nobody checks the global event list when they schedule these things, I will be on the other side of the world officiating a wedding the same day. So, yet again, I will not be at re:Inforce.Chris: That is a shame because I think you would have made an excellent person to contribute to our call for papers and attend. So yes, fwd:cloudsec is deliberately actually named after a subject line because all of the other Amazon conferences seem to be that way. And we didn't want to be going backwards and thinking, you know, past tense. We were looking forward to our conference. Yeah, so we're effectively a vendor-neutral cloud security conference. We liked the idea of being able to take the talks that Amazon PR would never allow on stage at re:Inforce and run with it.Corey: I would question that. I do want to call that out because I gave a talk at re:Invent one year about a vulnerability I found and reported, with the help of two other people, Scott Piper and Brandon Sherman, to the AWS security team. And we were able to talk about that on stage with Zack Glick, who at the time, was one of basically God's own prototypes, working over in the AWS environment next to Dan [Erson 00:19:56]. Now, Dan remains the salt of the earth, and if he ever leaves basically just short the entire US economy. It's easier. He is amazing. I digress. The point being is that they were very open about talking about an awful lot of stuff that I would never have expected that they would be okay with.Chris: And last year at re:Inforce, they had an excellent, excellent chalk talk—but it was a chalk talk, not recorded—on how ransomware attacks operate. And they actually, like, revealed some internal, very anonymized patterns of how attacks are working. So, they're starting to realize what we've been saying in the cloud security community for a while, which is, we need more legitimate threat intelligence. On the other hand, they don't want to call it threat intelligence because the word threat is threatening, and therefore, you know, we're going to just call it, you know, patterns or whatever. And our conference is, again, also multi-cloud, a concept that until recently, AWS, you know, didn't really want to acknowledge that there were other clouds and that people would use both of them [crosstalk 00:21:01]—Corey: Multi-cloud security is a nightmare. It's just awful.Chris: Yeah, I don't like multi-cloud, but I've come to realize that it is a thing. That you will either start at a company that says, “We're AWS and we're uni-cloud,” and then next thing, you know, either some rogue developer out there has gone and spun up an Azure subscription or your acquire somebody who's in GCP, or heaven forbid, you have to go into some, you know, tinhorn dictator's jurisdiction and they require you to be on-prem or leverage Oracle Cloud or something. And suddenly, congratulations, you're now multi-cloud. So yes, our goal is really to be the things that aren't necessarily onstage or aren't all just, “It's great.” Even your talk was how great the incident response and vulnerability remediation process was.Corey: How great my experience with it was at the time, to be clear. Because I also have gotten to a point where I am very aware that, in many cases when dealing with AWS, my reputation precedes me. So, when I wind up tweeting about a problem or opening a support case, I do not accept as a given that my experience is what everyone is going to experience. But a lot of the things they did made a lot of sense and I was frankly, impressed that they were willing to just talk about anything that they did internally. Because previously that had not been a thing that they did in open forums like that.Chris: But you go back to the Glue incident where somebody found a bug and they literally went and went to every single CloudTrail event going back to the dawn of the service to validate that, okay, the, only two times we ever saw this happen were between the two researcher's accounts who disclosed it. And so, kudos to them for that level of forward communication to their customers because yeah, I think we still haven't heard anything out of Azure for last year's—or a year-and-a-half ago's Wiz findings.Corey: Well, they did do a broad blog post about this that they put out, which I thought, “Okay, that was great. More of this please.” Because until they start talking about security issues and culture and the remediation thereof, I don't give a shit what they have to say about almost anything else because it all comes back to security. The only things I use Azure for, which admittedly has some great stuff; their computer vision API? Brilliant—but the things I use them for are things that I start from a premise of security is not important to that service.The thing I use it for on the soon-to-be-pivoted to Mastodon Twitter thread client that I built, it writes alt-text for images that are about to be put out publicly. Yeah, there's no security issue from that perspective. I am very hard-pressed to imagine a scenario in which that were not true.Chris: I can come up with a couple, but you know—Corey: It feels really contrived. And honestly, that's the thing that concerns me, too: the fact that I finally read, somewhat recently, an AWS white paper talking about—was it a white paper or was it blog post? I forget the exact media that it took. But it was about how they are seeing ransomware attacks on S3, which was huge because before that, I assumed it was something that was being made up by vendors to sell me something.Chris: So, that was the chalk talk.Corey: Yes.Chris: They finally got the chalk talk from re:Inforce, they gave it again at re:Invent because it was so well received and now they have it as a blog post out there, so that, you know, it's not just for people who show up in the room, they can hear it; it's actually now documented out there. And so, kudos to the Amazon security team for really getting that sort of threat intelligence out there to the community.Corey: Now, it's in writing, and that's something that I can cite as opposed to, “Well, I was at re:Invent and I heard—” Yeah, we saw the drink tab. We know what you might have thought you heard or saw at re:Invent. Give us something we can take to the board.Chris: There were a lot of us on that bar tab, so it's not all you.Corey: Exactly. And it was my pleasure to do it, to be clear. But getting back to fwd:cloudsec, I'm going to do you a favor. Whether it's an actual favor or the word favor belongs in quotes, the way that I submit CFPs, or conference talks, is optimized because I don't want to build a talk that is never going to get picked up. Why bother to go through all the work until I have to give it somewhere?So, I start with a catchy title and then three to five sentences. And if people accept it, great, then I get to build the talk. This is a forcing function in some ways because if you get a little delayed, they will not move the conference for you. I've checked. But the title of a talk that I think someone should submit for fwd:cloudsec is, “I Am Smarter Than You, so Cloud Security is Easy.”And the format and the conceit of the talk is present it with sort of a stand-it-up-to-take-it-down level of approach where you are over-confident in the fact that you are smarter than everyone else and best practices don't apply to you and so much of this stuff is just security theater designed as a revenue extraction mechanism as opposed to something you should actually be doing. And talk about why none of these things matter because you use good security and you know, it's good because you came up with it and there's no way that you could come up with something that you couldn't break because you're smart. It says so right in the title and you're on stage and you have a microphone. They don't. Turn that into something. I feel like there's a great way to turn that in a bunch of different directions. I'd love to see someone give that talk.Chris: I think Nickolas Sharp thought that too.Corey: [laugh]. Exactly. In fact, that will be a great way to bring it back around at the end. And it's like, “And that's why I'm better at security than you are. If you have any questions beyond this, you can reach me at whatever correctional institute I go in on Thursday.” Exactly. There's ways to make it fun and engaging. Because from my perspective, talks have to be entertaining or people don't pay attention.Chris: They're either entertaining, or they're so new and advanced. We're definitely an advanced cloud security practice thing. They were 500 levels. Not to brag or anything, but you know, you want the two to 300-level stuff, you can go CCJ up the street. We're hitting and going above and beyond what a lot of the [unintelligible 00:27:18]—Corey: I am not as advanced on that path as you are; I want to be very clear on this. You speak, I listen. You're one of those people when it comes to security. Because again, no one's life is hanging in the balance with respect to what I do. I am confident in our security posture here, but nothing's perfect. Everything is exploitable, on some level.It's also not my core area of focus. It is yours. And if you are not better than I am at this, then I have done something sort of strange, or so of you, in the same way that it is a near certainty—but not absolute—that I am better at optimizing AWS bills than you are. Specialists exist for a reason and to discount that expertise is the peak of hubris. Put that in your talk.Chris: Yeah. So, one talk I really want to see, and I've been threatening to give it for a while, is okay, if there's seventeen ways—or sorry, seventeen times two, soon to be seventeen times three ways to run containers in AWS, there's that many ways to exfiltrate credentials from those containers. What are all of those things? Do we have a holistic way of understanding, this is how credentials can be exfiltrated so that we then as defenders can go figure out, okay, how do we build detections and mitigations for this?Corey: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Canarytokens myself, for that exact purpose. There are many devices I have where the only credentials in plain text on disk are things that as soon as they get used, I wind up with a bunch of things screaming at me that there's been a problem and telling me where it is. I'm not saying that my posture is impenetrable. Far from it. But you're going to have to work for it a little bit harder than running some random off-the-shelf security scanner against my AWS account and finding, oops, I forgot to turn on a bucket protection.Chris: And the other area that I think is getting really interesting is, all of the things that have credentials into your Cloud account, whether it's something like CircleCI or GitHub. I was having a conversation with somebody just this morning and we were talking about Roles Anywhere, and I was like, “Roles Anywhere is great if you've got a good strong PKI solution and can keep that private certificate or that certificate you need safe.” If you just put it on a disk, like, you would have put your AKIA and secret on a desk, congratulations, you haven't really improved security. You've just gotten rid of the IAM users that are being flagged in your CSPM tool, and congratulations, you have, in fact, achieved security theater.Corey: It's obnoxious, on some level. And part of the problem is cost and security are aligned and that people care about them right after they really should have cared about them. The difference is you can beg, cry, whine, et cetera to AWS for concessions, you can raise another round of funding; there have solutions with money. But security? That ship has already sailed.Chris: Yeah. Once the data is out, the data is out. Now, I will say on the bill, you get reminded of it every month, about three or four days after. It's like, “Oh. Crap, yeah, I should have turned off that EC2 instance. I just burned $100.” Or, “Oh hey, we didn't turn off that application. I just burned $100,000.” That doesn't happen on security. Security events tend to be few and far between; they're just much bigger when they happen.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to chat with me. I'm sure I'll have you back on between now and re:Inforce slash fwd:cloudsec or anything else we come up with that resembles an email subject line. If people want to learn more and follow along with your adventures—as they should—where's the best place for him to find you these days?Chris: So, I am now pretty much living on Mastodon on the InfoSec Exchange. And my website, chrisfarris.com is where you can find the link to that because it's not just at, you know, whatever. You have to give the whole big long URL in Mastodon. It's no longer—Corey: Yeah. It's like a full-on email address with weird domains.Chris: Exactly, yeah. So, find me at http colon slash slash infosec dot exchange slash at jcfarris. Or just hit Chris Farris and follow the links. For fwd:cloudsec, we are conveniently located at fwdcloudsec.org, which is F-W-D cloud sec dot org. No colons because I don't think those are valid in whois.Corey: Excellent choice. And of course, links to that go in the [show notes 00:31:32], so click the button. It's easier. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.Chris: Thank you.Corey: Chris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at Turbot slash Turbo. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that resembles a lawsuit being filed, and then have it processed-served to me because presumably, you work at Ubiquiti.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Welcome from Chad, Jon, and Chris Thank you Gert V, Arjan H, Geoff C, David C  Announcements and News  Random Review Redo: OF PAIN! Top/Bottom player cards from The Two Towers AMA  Farewell!

How Do You Create Raving Fans? Joining us today is Chris Earley, a Personal Injury Lawyer in Massachusetts who is a magnet for raving fans. When it comes to marketing, there is simply no better lead than a referral. Why? Because people who don't know you don't trust you. But a prospective client will trust someone they can relate to you're your former clients. But it isn't enough to have a handful of 5-star reviews that you begged and pleaded for through mass, repetitive emails. Everyone has that. In this podcast, Chris answers some of these questions: You are the master at creating raving fans. What is a raving fan? Why is it important to develop these kinds of relationships? Your attitude towards generating raving fans goes beyond simply having good reviews. You start with the person first and how you can help them. Can you expand on that a bit? How do you go about developing the raving fan relationship? How much time do you spend developing these relationships? How do you get your raving fans to leave reviews or send referral cases? What are some ways that you keep in touch with your raving fans after their case closes? What percentage of your client leads are referral based? Do you find it is easier to connect with a client who comes from a referral v one who comes from a cold call? Why do you think other lawyers might struggle with this initially and how can they overcome it? Visit the Earley Law Group online here https://www.chrisearley.com/ and be sure to check out their extended family of raving fans here: https://www.chrisearley.com/client-testimonials.html. See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/. Transcript: Lindsey: Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I'm your host, Lindsey Busfield. When it comes to marketing, there is simply no better lead than a referral. Why? Because people who don't know you don't necessarily trust you. But a perspective client will trust somebody they can relate to, i.e., your former clients, but it isn't enough to have a handful of five-star reviews that you begged and pleaded for through mass repetitive emails. Everyone has that. What you need are raving fans who can't wait to tell their friends, family, and random strangers how great you are and how much money you got them. You want the kind of fan who hears someone just say the word car accident from across the room, they drop everything and sing your praises. You want an army of walking billboards. Joining us today is Chris Earley, a personal injury lawyer in Massachusetts who is a magnet for raving fans. Thank you so much for joining us today. Chris: Thank you, Lindsey. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much. Lindsey: Well, you are the master at creating raving fans. So let's start by telling me a little bit about what is a raving fan. Chris: I am hyper focused and dialed in on doing the best job that me and my team can do to make our clients happy. I feel that clients, when it comes to lawyers, don't ask for a lot. I don't think the standard is so high that that does make them happy. But if you can over-deliver, if you can really impress them, they more times than not will become a raving fan. The more you dial in on customer service, holding their hand through the process from start to finish, from intake to end of the case, they remember how you made them feel. We'll get into that about relationships. It's not just a transactional attorney-client, cold relationship, it's a warm, human relationship. That I try to humanize the relationship. I try to make clients feel really welcome. We call it here, our extended family. It's not just group of clients, it's an extended family of people who trust us to handle their case. We take that very seriously and we really do focus on doing everything we possibly can,

Welcome from Chad, Jon, and Chris Thank you Isaiah H, Nathan B, Craig B, Carl S Announcements and News  Lure of Middle Earth in February Massive Multiplayer online event in January: The Nine are Abroad Random Review Redo: OF PAIN! Do not ignore these cards from the repackaged content AMA  Farewell!

Welcome from Chad, Jon, and Chris Thank you Disco Drew, Lorenzo C, Chris M, Darthmaluus Announcements and News  Two new LOTR: LCG items available: Fellowship Saga, ALEP's The Nine are Abroad Main Topic: Rings of Power discussion.  Farewell!

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, wellbeing friends. Welcome to the Path To Well-Being In Law Podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. As you know, my name is Chris Newbold. I serve as executive vice president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. You know, our goal here on the podcast is to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the wellbeing space within the legal profession, and in the process, build and nurture a national network of wellbeing advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. As always, I am joined by my co-host, Bree Buchanan. Bree, how are you doing today? BREE BUCHANAN: I'm doing great, Chris. Great to be here. CHRIS: Good, good. As you all know, Bree is the president of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. Bree, we have some really exciting news to share about the institute and the journey that we're on to engineer this culture shift. Would you maybe give us a clue as to the breaking news that I think that we were so excited about? BREE: Nobody could be more excited than me because you said, you know, Bree is the board president. Well, up until this news, I had two jobs. I was the acting executive director, so I am just delighted to let people know we have hired our first full-time staff person and that is our inaugural executive director. Her name is Jennifer DiSanza. She comes to us with a whole host of experience in wellbeing issues and particularly with the law students. For many reasons, we wanted to bring Jennifer on board, but also strategically, we really realized that's where she's coming from is the future of our profession. And also, aside of where we know there's a lot of behavioral health distress and stress on the youngest members of our profession and the law students. So we're just thrilled to have Jennifer on board. CHRIS: Yeah. See, I had the privilege of serving with you Bree on the hiring committee. Boy, we have a dynamic leader now that will be working day-to-day to think about advancing wellbeing in our profession. You know, there's so much work to be done as you well know. We're actually planning on having Jennifer as our next podcast guest, which will be awesome to be able to just talk about the vision, why she's passionate about this work. It will also happen to be after the conclusion of some strategic planning that we as a board will be doing. So things are just really aligning well with both what has transpired, where we're going, and then focusing on what lies ahead in terms of some big issues that we have to tackle as we think about the wellbeing of lawyers and legal professionals in the profession. With that, today we're going to circle back to, we've spent considerable time in the area of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You know, we had anticipated a three part series on this, but sometimes you extend an offer and you get somebody who's so awesome that you sit there and go, we have to expand this even further. Right? BREE: Along came Kori. Yeah. CHRIS: That's right. Along came Kori. And when Kori came along, we're like, okay, we're breaking the rules. We're totally bringing Kori into the mix. And so we were really excited to welcome Kori Carew to the podcast. Bree, would you be so kind to introduce Kori? And again, this is I know a podcast that we've been very excited and looking forward to. BREE: Absolutely. So Kori is a people inclusion strategist, an advocate, a speaker, a writer, a status quo disruptor. Got to love that. Child of God, wife and mother of two curly-haired, wise, energetic, fierce, spitfire daughters. Her family is multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious and spans multiple nationalities. She brings a fierce love of community and belonging that transcends differences to work, ministry and life. She loves to sing, cook, entertain, dance in the hallways at work, we need a video component of that, and read. Equipping leaders to be inclusive, to interrupt bias and disrupt the status quo. At her day job, she focuses on developing and implementing strategies for individual career and diversity and inclusion success, and helps organizations build bridges across differences and improve inclusion. BREE: When she's not working, she focuses her voice and talent on issues of gender equity and rights, inclusion, and human and civil rights, serving in her church and community, and cherishing her phenomenal tribe and community. She's energized by helping people live their very best lives. Kori was the Director of Strategic Diversity Initiatives for seven years at Shook, Hardy. And then she came over to Seyfarth and is now the Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer there and oversees their really spectacular wellbeing program, Seyfarth Life, and a whole host of other initiatives we're going to hear about. So Kori, welcome to the podcast. CHRIS: Yay. KORI CAREW: Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me to be on this podcast and also very much the work that you are doing. This conversation of wellbeing for attorneys is such an important conversation. It's one that we probably started having too late, and it's one where diversity and inclusion, there's more work to be done than time. I'm super thankful for all that you do and all that you do to help our profession be better, so thank you very much. BREE: You bet. Kori, I'm going to start off. We ask all of our guests a variation of this question. What experiences in your life are drivers behind your passion for work around diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging and wellbeing? KORI: Thank you for that question. And of course, you're causing me to go down a bit of memory lane. You would think this is an easy question, but it actually is not. It's not as easy because it forces you to look in the rear view mirror and try to understand where the dots connected to where you are. Before I do that, I do want to make one small correction. Seyfarth Life is an incredible initiative at Seyfarth that I am super proud of and one of the things that energized me about joining the firm. It has a steering committee that leads it. It's four partners at the firm, all of whom have a connection to wellbeing and mindfulness. My department and my role actually does not oversee Seyfarth Life, but we do work very closely with them. Because as one of the founding members, Laura Maechtlen noted from the very beginning, there's that intersection between inclusion and diversity and belonging and wellbeing, and the two work very closely together. But my department does not oversee Seyfarth Life. So just wanted to make sure I give credit to the right people. BREE: Absolutely, give credit where it's due. KORI: You know, because they're awesome and they do great work. In fact, if I may brag on them, out of the steering committee members, one of them is the chair of the largest department in the firm and an executive committee member and co-chair of the national diversity and inclusion action team. Oh, wait a minute. No, that's not right. Three are office managing partners. They're part of this steering committee, this leadership group, because they actually practice wellbeing and mindfulness and meditation in their own personal lives and allow it to influence how they lead. So I know Seyfarth didn't pay me to do a promotion, but I felt like I needed to shout some guys out. BREE: Absolutely. KORI: Our talent team helps them quite a bit in terms of organizing programs and handling the administrative and logistic things. Okay. So to answer your question, what are the experiences? I often say this and it is true that when I look at my life in the rear view mirror, how I ended up where I am makes a lot more sense as I connect the dots in ways that I probably couldn't have foreseen. For example, I never intended to be a diversity and inclusion professional. I actually never intended to go to law school. I started my university career as an electrical engineering major. When I came to the U.S., I wanted to build planes. That was my thing. I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I wanted to build planes. I loved science. I could spend hours in the lab. One of the best gifts I ever got was a lab coat. My dad had a custom drawing board built for me when I was a teenager that I carried with me everywhere because technical drawing, engineering drawing was one of my top subjects. KORI: So a lot of things make sense in hindsight. I look at my family composition and my sisters and I were all born in different countries. We have different passports. We grew up in Nigeria, a country with over 300 different ethnic groups with different languages and traditions and customs, so there's that. My family is multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-racial and there's just so much diversity there. You know, in the family tree, there's a granduncle that's a Methodist church bishop, and one that's an Imam. And my grandfather's father was a teacher, was a teacher of the Quran. And so all of that diversity is there in the family, but it probably influenced how my parents raised my sisters and I and how even through childhood, I was always the person who was connecting the dots between similarities between people. And today we would call that cultural fluency, this ability to recognize cultural differences and not judge them but just adapt to them and be able to say, okay, you know what? KORI: It looks to me like person A is looking through a lens that's different than person B, but they're looking at the same thing. So how can I get these two people to be on the same page? So there's that family dynamic. But another thing that happened when I was growing up that I do think influenced me quite a bit. I grew up in Nigeria. Most of my childhood, we had one military dictator after another. So I grew up with coos happening more often than I would prefer. There were times that things broke out into religious violence. You're talking about incidents where a few people are killed or a lot of people are killed and everything goes to standstill, everybody's on edge. You don't leave your home. When the students go on riots because they're protesting something and things get out of hand, you're turning off the lights in your home and sort of huddled together, trying to make sure that you stay together as a family until everything passes over. So that was also something that I grew up around and experiencing. KORI: And then my parents are from Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone is actually my home country. If you ask me where I'm from, I will tell you I was born in Canada, grew up in Nigeria, but I'm from Sierra Leone. Because in my culture, you're where your father's from. So my entire identity has always been that I am from Sierra Leone. In the '90s, Sierra Leone began to experience a very brutal civil war, which calling it a civil war is actually inaccurate. You have a bunch of people with weapons who terrorize the population for 11 years. And it's been one of the most brutal wars that the world has seen at least in recent times. And that impacted my family in the sense that we lost people, in the sense that I hadn't been back to Sierra Leone for a long time. And it kind of started with my mom not feeling it was safe enough for us to go and visit, with grandparents living on the run and being sick and dying and me not seeing them in a long time because of just this state of chaos. KORI: And all of this fueled how I ended up going to law school, wanting to do human rights work, wanting to be a human rights lawyer, feeling as if I learned so much about the American system and the role that the legal profession played in terms of maintaining democracy and freedom and wanting to multiply that. Right. But then I go to law school. I graduate. I fall in love with a boy who I actually started dating in college, and I ended up in Kansas City because I followed a boy. You know, career took a different turn, ended up being a defense lawyer. And then you fast forward to doing an evaluation and me going through a process of saying, okay, I've done a lot of the things I wanted to do. I've achieved a lot of the things I wanted to achieve. I wanted to try cases. I wanted to build this reputation. I wanted to be successful in A, B, C, D. KORI: And I started taking inventory of the things I was passionate about, the skills I developed, the experiences I had and where I was losing time. You know, where was I given my time in community? What were the things that I could lose myself doing in such deep flow that I don't even recognize that time has gone by? And that journey ended up leading me to inclusion and diversity work and I haven't turned back since. There's some aspects of the legal profession I miss. I miss trying cases. I miss solving problems for clients. It may sound like the weirdest thing, but boy, playing around with evidence, rules, and figuring out how to get things in or keep things out is a nerdy love of mine. And so those are just some of the experiences that I would say led me to this love for helping people build bridges and I'm empower people to succeed despite the challenges, and being able to create just a level of cultural fluency amongst groups of people so that we understand how much better we are together as opposed to isolated from one another. So that's a long answer. BREE: Well, what an amazing life you've had to date and an incredible background that informs your work at a depth that I know Chris and I can't even begin to imagine. CHRIS: For sure. Kori, how long have you been more squarely centered on the inclusion and diversity side of things? KORI: I have been for 11 years now full-time diversity. What I realized, you know, somebody asked me a question similar to this, how long have you been doing diversity work, which is different from what I usually hear. I actually did the inventory and realized that, you know, 29 years ago, when I first came to the U.S., that was when I actually started doing presentations. At the time, we called them multiculturalism. We started doing presentations on bridging differences, on being able to understand different cultures and how you navigate it. And so I've been actually teaching on diversity, inclusion, cultural fluency leadership topics now for 29, 30 years. But it being my full-time job, that happened when I left litigation and moved over to Shook, Hardy & Bacon. CHRIS: Okay. I think a good point to maybe start the conversation is, you know, again, your perspective is so unique and informed. For diverse members of the profession, can you talk to our listeners about some of the more challenging aspects of the last couple of years? KORI: Yeah. So the last couple of years have been tough for everyone. This pandemic, it's been brutal and it's impacted us in so many different ways. We've lost our sense of certainty to the extent that we didn't had any. We've lost our ability to have some kind of predictability, something that is a core need, a core need for many of us. Well, not for many of us, for everyone. It's actually a core human need. And so we've been sort of thrown into this whirlwind of uncertainty with no deadline, right? We went from thinking, well, I'll speak for myself. You know, since I'm not a scientist, I foolishly thought, well, maybe in two weeks I'll go back to the office. And then it was a month. And then I thought six weeks. And then I thought for sure by summer 2020 we'd be able to go out and about and things would be quasi under control. And here we are, you know, some 28, 29 months later and we still have COVID. I'm sick right now recovering from COVID after avoiding it for almost 30 months, I get it. KORI: So you have that benchmark that is impacting everyone and the uncertainty that we've seen with everything going on around us. But as with everything, I think people from historically underrepresented and marginalized groups, what happens is the things that... There's this saying that the things, and I'm going to probably say it wrong. And it may be an African American saying, but it's this thing that what gives some people a cold will give others the flu. And so what you've seen then is populations that have been historically marginalized and underrepresented and haven't had access to full equity, had been impacted very differently by the same storm that we're all in. So we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. We're experiencing it differently. So communities of color, we know got hit by COVID much harder. KORI: And you have that intersection between race, between housing inequity, between education inequity, between healthcare inequity and healthcare access, all of those things coming together to adversely impact some groups more. So if you are someone who is Brown or Black, or from one of these historically marginalized communities, and you are going to work during the pandemic, or you're working from home, you are more likely to have family members who have been directly impacted by COVID, right? You are more likely to have lost family members. You also, generally speaking are more likely to be in a position where you are in an extended family situation where you are responsible for more people than just yourself. You know, one of the things that we know, for example, that impacts generational wealth is that those of us from communities of color oftentimes are responsible not just for ourselves, but for extended family members. KORI: So you have that dynamic playing, then you have the racial pandemic, which has been going on, but in the last two years have come to fevered pitch. And so the daily trauma of dealing with racism and microaggressions then gets compounded by all the incidents, George Floyd, Charles Cooper, and all the other incidents that have been bombarding us from our television screens, from the news reports, from articles. And so now all of a sudden everything is right in your face and you're dealing with all of it at the same time. And so those are some of the things that are professionals from "diverse communities," from underrepresented marginalized communities have been dealing with. And our reserves have been tapped into and overstretched to where for some of us, it feels like it's been just too much. BREE: Absolutely. It's unimaginable just how much to carry on in that space. All of the things that you just described, this litany of horrors is on top of just the day-to-day difficulty as been expressed to me, and reading in my friends of people of color, just the microaggressions and just how hard it is. Just take away pandemic and everything else and the racial reckoning, how hard it can be just to get through the day. I can't even imagine. It is absolutely just too, too much. Kori, there's so much to unpack here. I wanted to kind of pushing us along here talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion and talking about belonging and overlaying that. I mean, when I started looking in the legal profession, we talk about DEI, it was diversity then DEI, and now we're getting into some of the really, to me, needy and interesting stuff around belonging. I know that you created a belonging project at Seyfarth. Could you talk to us about the importance of that, and also about this project that you got started at Seyfarth? KORI: Sure. Let me separate them out. Belonging is a conversation that more and more of us are having, and it is fairly new to the conversation when you're talking about diversity and inclusion. It started with we talked about diversity, and then we started talking about diversity and inclusion, and now we've included equity and belonging. Belonging goes to that sense, that feeling that each of us have when we belong and we feel like we are part of a group and that we belong to something that is bigger than us. It is also a core human need. Brené Brown has this phrase that she says that we have three irreducible needs, and they are to be loved, to connect, and to belong. What we know from the research is that when we don't have belonging, it impacts us. It is wired into our DNA to belong to something. KORI: So we will either have healthy belonging, or we will seek a belonging that may not be healthy and may not be good. This is where you can queue in hate groups and cult because they will do anything to belong. We will also conform to fit in so that we have a quasi sense of belonging. The problem though is that when we don't have belonging, we actually see physiological, physical, spiritual, mental, psychological impact on our wellbeing. It impacts our sense of health. Forget our sense of health. It actually impacts our health, right? We know that exclusion and the lack of belonging actually results in increased depression, increased high blood pressure, increased diabetes. Incidentally, a lot of the same things that racial trauma and microaggressions also causes on the human body. And so if we don't have that sense of belonging, then we are not able to actually actualize that sense of inclusion where everyone is able to be leveraged and their differences and their strengths leveraged so that they can succeed as they want to succeed. KORI: And without belonging, you don't get wellbeing. But conversely, without wellbeing, you can't cultivate that sense of belonging. And so those two things are intertwined as well as this concept of engagement, which also is in the mix, right? You can't create engagement unless you have social connection and belonging. And so all of these things come together. Unfortunately, in many of our organizations, they're treated as separate, right? In many organizations, you have the wellbeing function being managed in a way that it doesn't speak to diversity, doesn't speak to belonging at all. So imagine now we just talked about COVID and we talked about how COVID has impacted everyone. Then imagine you're developing a wellness initiative or a wellbeing initiative and you're not stopping to think, oh, wait a minute, because of diversity, this pandemic has impacted people in different ways. KORI: And so I can't just trot out a wellbeing program without factoring in diversity and how diversity has resulted in different people experiencing this pandemic differently. Similarly, we fail when we try to, for example, have a wellbeing initiative that doesn't stop and think, oh, wow, we're not talking about racial trauma. We're not talking about microaggressions. We're not talking about the impact of implicit bias and exclusion on the psychological and physical wellbeing of the people in our organization. And so what's happening is these concepts are tied together, but in our organizations and most of our organizations, we're not doing DEI and incorporating wellbeing and we're not doing wellbeing incorporating DEIB. Instead, we're acting as if they're completely separate and they're not. CHRIS: I mean, I think it goes without saying, we, I think as human beings, sometimes we compartmentalize of there's this and then there's that. I think that from the infancy of the institute, I think we've emphasized the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion as part of, has to flow through everything, every lens that we look at from the wellbeing perspective. But I have to admit, it's been more challenging than I think, than we've appreciated because sometimes we look a little bit myopically at some of these issues without broadening our lens. That's the perspective that I think that you can bring our listeners that, again, this intersection of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging with wellbeing, I guess I'd be curious on just, how can we merge? Right? Because again, even the fact that there's organizations that work over here and organizations that work over here, and we really should be just the coalition and the umbrella and the totality of how it all works together is something that I don't know that we appreciate the magnitude of. KORI: Well, and the only way we can appreciate the magnitude is if we have these honest conversations. But we also have to have the conversations around the structural and the cultural underpinnings, right? How do we have conversations about wellbeing that take into consideration differences? That take into consideration, okay, we're telling people, hey, we have therapy or we have EAP, or we have whatever the organization offers. But how do you do that and also acknowledge that for some communities that there is a stigma around maybe going to a therapist? How do you have that conversation with those communities? Or that racial bias and racial aggressions are having an impact on people, but you have an entire generation of Black people, for example, who have survived by plowing through all the challenges that the world has put in front of us. And to sit down and talk about the way in which racism has impacted us is asking us to put our shields down, which means opening up ourselves to attack, which means possibly being accused of playing the race card. Right? KORI: All of things that you may have grown up in a time where we just didn't talk about that in mixed company, we only talked about that with each other. And so there are all these layers, all these layers. I recently listened to a friend of mine, Ratu Basin, and she was talking about how it feels for her as someone of Indian heritage to see how much yoga, for example, has been whitewashed. There's so many conversations to be had even in the wellbeing space, even when we're talking to people about things like self-care. Well, what are you recommending? Because some of the things we tell people to do for self-care, go get a massage, who can afford that? What culture support that kind of self-care? And is that really self-care or is that treating a symptom? Should self-care and wellbeing be about a way of life and a way of working such that we don't need these emergency [inaudible 00:32:26] like solutions to fix the symptoms, right? KORI: And that's the big conversation and that's the conversation I'm hearing some lawyers begin to ask where they say, the organization says they care about wellbeing, but we're getting these other messages that say it's productivity and hours and billables that matter, right? How do we shift the culture and how we're embracing these topics in a way that makes it more meaningful? I just realized, I didn't even answer your second question about the belonging project, but yeah, this is the stuff that to me, I see a lot of potential for us to have really good conversations that can lead to solutions that are more inclusive of a diverse profession. BREE: Kori, you're clearly such a thought leader and a visionary in this space. Can you talk a little bit about how do we get change to occur in a profession, the legal profession that is so reluctant to change? Even more so than general society. Where do you see the bright points of really being able to make some change? KORI: Can you repeat that question? BREE: Yeah. Just about how do we get change to occur in the legal profession? You know, this is a profession that is just so stayed and slow and bound up in tradition. This is the way we do it, that sort of thing. And here you are with these fabulous ideas, working with a very large law firm, having come from another very large law firm so you're in this space. What are your ideas for actually getting real change to occur? Where are the pressure points, I guess? KORI: Well, I think some of the pressure points are actually external. You asked me a question earlier about the last two years, something that I didn't mention that has impacted a lot. It's impacting individuals from underrepresented groups, but it's also impacting our organizations. Is this fake cultural war that is also going on, you know, regardless of what political party you're in, I think we can acknowledge that for the last six years, there has been an attack on everything that we are trying to accomplish in diversity and inclusion. White is now Black, Black is now white. And if we are in a state of being, for example, where I'll use Florida as an example where someone can say, we want to ban any training if it makes someone uncomfortable. What you're essentially saying is let's keep the status quo the way it is, even if the status quo supports white supremacy. KORI: Even if the status quo is inequitable. You would rather keep the status quo than have an uncomfortable conversation. When it comes to the legal profession, in particular, law firms, because of how we are constructed. A law firm essentially has multiple owners. It's not like a corporation that has a board of directors and has shareholders. Let's say you have a law firm of a thousand people and 300 of them are partners. You have 300 people running around who think that everybody should have an equal say in every single decision. It's one of the reasons that law firms function so differently from other companies and why decision making is so different. Everything we do is different. You know, we put people in leadership positions not because they're leaders, but because they're great trial attorneys or they're great business generators or whatever, whatever the criteria is, but rarely is it because someone actually is a good leader. KORI: And so we have this culture that we have built that really makes it difficult for us to have real hard conversations on the things that really matter, on the things that really can make change. So imagine that law firm now sitting in the last six years and even more so in the last three years. I can tell you when it comes to diversity, inclusion, many of us are throwing our hands up and saying, so how in the hell are we supposed to have this conversation then? If you're saying, oh, we can't talk about white privilege because someone says, oh, that offends me. Or we can't talk about systemic racism because someone's going to say, oh, wait a minute, if you say systemic racism is real, then that's anti-American. So we are living in a time where the terms racism, the terms CRT have been completely redefined to where they mean nothing that even resembles what they actually mean. KORI: And then we're over here arguing about these fictitious decisions, these fictitious definitions, and we're not actually doing the hard work that needs to be done, right. Because if you won't even acknowledge that systemic racism is real, then how do we evaluate the systems to see where we may be having inequitable results and then changing those systems? Because if you deny a thing exists, then we can't even address it. BREE: Absolutely. KORI: And so that's probably one of the biggest challenges I see, but also the biggest opportunity. And if anything is going to change when it comes to diversity, we have got to get more courageous about having difficult conversations, but conversations that are worthwhile, they are important. Nothing about creating equity is comfortable and cozy and touchy-feely, it's hard work. It requires us to say some things that we maybe may not have faced before, but we don't get to change what we won't face, what we won't acknowledge, and what we won't be honest about. It's like, you can't write a new end into the story if you won't acknowledge the truth of the story. That's the whirlwind that I think we are in now, not just as a profession, but as a country and a society. BREE: Absolutely. What an incredibly difficult place to be? Yeah, go ahead, Chris. CHRIS: Well, I was just going to say, I want to unpack that more. Let's do this. Let's take a quick break and come back because I mean, my burning question and Kori began to sort of thinking about it, which is what's the pathway to better, more productive, honest conversations, right? Because I think that you're right. The question is, how do we create the environments for ultimately that societal discussion to occur in the most productive way? So let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. — ADVERTISEMENT: Meet VERA, your firm's Virtual Ethics Risk Assessment Guide developed by ALPS. VERA's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake to calendaring, to cybersecurity, and more. VERA: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed, and to keep your firm on the right path. Generous and discreet, VERA is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS to help firms like yours be their best. Visit VERA at alpsinsurance.com/vera.   — CHRIS: Okay. We are back with Kori Carew, our esteemed guests and the chief inclusion and diversity officer at Seyfarth Shaw. Kori, we were just getting into the, I think the discussion. I feel like we're going deeper than even I had thought we would in the conversation, which I love. You know, as we think now about we need to have the honest conversations, right. And so I would just be curious on your opinion as what's the pathway to get there. If we appreciate that there's a lot of noise and the volume levels are high, and there's a lot of yelling, frankly, on both sides of the equation. What's the pathway toward problem solving, thoughtful discussion, intentional discussion that ultimately advances the dialogue? KORI: Thank you very much for that question. Honestly, it's one I've been thinking a lot about. You know, I did do a TEDx in 2017 and the impetus for that TED really was that question that you just asked, which was, there's a lot of yelling and not enough dialogue that allows us to move into action. Since I gave that TED, I've sort of watched what's been going on in organizations and in the country. I don't think I would change anything about that TED, except that there are a few more things that I would emphasize. One of the first things that we have to do if we truly want to make progress, and I'm going to steal a Nigerian thing, tell the truth and shame the devil. We are avoiding being honest with ourself about so many things. Whether it is just being honest about the experiences people have in the organization, or being honest about where the gaps are, or being honest about what the failures are, or even individual honesty. KORI: That self-awareness to say, you know Kori, you talk a lot about wellbeing and you talk a lot about leadership, but the reason you talk about those things is because you were searching for something that you did not have in the leaders that you grew up under, right? So you were trying to create something for others that you didn't have, but you are also trying to create it for yourself. And there are many days that you totally suck. There are many days that you are making very bad wellbeing decisions. There are days that you are not as inclusive as you would want to be, but it's okay. And the only way you're going to get better is by acknowledging where you're not doing it right. Now, think about that when we're talking about gender or race or LGBT inclusion or disability inclusion. If we as individuals and we as organizations are not willing to be honest about our history, what has happened and what is happening, then we don't even have a starting point. KORI: And the way that we do that is very, very cliché. Getting comfortable with what is uncomfortable. I remember when I first started saying that, when I was at Shook, Hardy & Bacon and it wasn't even a thing many people were saying, and now people say it so often that it has lost its meaning. But it truly is the beginning point. And in too many of our organizations, we are shutting down any discussion or any movement in the name of trying to get consensus, or in trying to water things so much that they're meaningless, right? Or being so hyperworried about future possible hypothetical litigation that somebody may have over something that they don't like that they heard as opposed to possible litigation over people who do not feel like they are being treated equitably. You know, it's like we have to choose our heart. And so it's either the heart of sitting in the discomfort and learning things we may not want to learn, challenging ourselves, reaching deep to say, you know what? I don't really like that. KORI: When you talk to me about Christian privilege, this is a true story. Okay. True story. A [inaudible 00:46:22] of mine talked about Christian privilege. We're talking about something. She said, "Yeah, but there's also Christian privilege and people never talk about that." And can I admit to you that I was like, "Oh, is she for real? We're talking about racism and she's talking about Christian privilege." That was my initial reaction. But I sat with it. You know what? She was right. Because she was Pagan and I'm Christian. I've never had to use PTO for Christmas. My holidays are respected, they are recognized, they are centered, they are prioritized. But other people in this country who are not Christian do not have those privileges. Now that's a benign example because it's not one that makes people get as upset as some of the other topics. KORI: But the first step has to be a commitment to sit through the discomfort, sit through what may rub you wrong, and acknowledge that just because something is uncomfortable or just because something offends you does not mean the thing is wrong or it is offensive. And in many of our organizations, we haven't even gotten past that first part. Then the next part has to be a commitment to learn more. We have to operationalize being able to say to each other, tell me more, and not just, oh, I didn't like that training, or I didn't like what I was learning. But to say to yourself internally, okay, I didn't like that. But rather than projecting how I'm feeling it in this moment, I'm going to put myself in the position of saying, tell me more, help me understand why that bothered you, help me understand why you feel that way. Because until we're willing to do that, we're not going to learn. KORI: And without knowledge, we have no opportunity for growth. Growth comes with new knowledge. Growth comes with practicing new skill sets. Growth comes with trying things that you haven't done before. But if you're more invested in protecting the status quo than you are fighting for change, then the status quo will always win. And the status quo right now, it's not working for a lot of people from a lot of underrepresented and marginalized communities. Those are some of the things that have to happen. Oh, Chris, something else I want to add. Both sides. We got to talk about this both sides thing. Not every opinion and argument is equal, and that's something else that we're not willing to address head on. We've allowed inclusion to be so redefined that some people think it means anything and everything is of equal footing, right. KORI: But someone saying in the workplace, we need to be more inclusive of people with disabilities is not the same as someone saying, I don't think disabled people should have to work here. And sometimes what is crouching in is people want to hide behind inclusion to spew hate or bigotry or an excuse not to make the change and growth that is consistent with the so-called values of our organizations. I'll pause there because you're about [inaudible 00:50:05]. BREE: Yeah. I just want to comment to our listeners Kori's TED Talk, just in your browser, put in Kori Carew and TED Talk. I really encourage people to check it out. It is powerful and profound. So Kori, I'm going to ask you a question here that we also tend to ask this sometimes near the end, if you could look for, I don't know, five years or even a decade. If we can do a decent job around changing hearts and minds and attitudes around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging and wellbeing too, hopefully, how would the profession be different? What do you want to see? KORI: My goodness, my goodness, my goodness. Excuse me. That cough came up. If we could actually accomplish all these things that we've been talking about for 20 years, we would see leadership teams that are more humble in their approach, leadership teams that are people-centric, organizations that are listening to employees and actually care about what employees want. We would no longer be having conversations as if it's either you focus on the bottom line or you focus on employee happiness. Like we will understand that without happy employees who are engaged and doing fulfilling and meaningful work, we actually don't have a great bottom line to talk about. Right? Our organizations would look like inclusion and wellbeing and belonging, it's just part of the business strategy. It's not this separate siloed thing. It's not this thing that we talk about when we are worried about how the woman or the gays may react. Right. KORI: But it's just something that is operationalized into our values, into our competencies, into how we evaluate people, into how we promote people, and that we are constantly in humility, learning from each other. Right. So that even when somebody who's a chief inclusion and diversity officer, here's a phrase and someone says, "Did you realize that that was ableist?" That I would say, "I didn't. Tell me more." And once you tell me more, I changed my language, because we understand that we're always going to be moving. We're always going to be learning something new and there's always an opportunity to be better. And if we do that, we will also see different representation at all levels. We will actually have critical mass of diversity in our organizations. And then I would be unemployed. CHRIS: I was going to wrap up with this though, Kori, like if I was to serve up to you 500 managing partners, that were, again, I think one of the things that you've already mentioned is every individual in an organization is either additive or perhaps distracts from the culture that you're ultimately trying to create. A lot of the wellbeing discussion is about connecting and emphasizing wellbeing with decision makers and those who set the tone of organizations. And so my question to you is this, if I served up 500 managing partners of all sizes of firms around the country and they came and Kori was the keynote, what would be your message to them? KORI: My message to them would be that they are ridiculously in charge, that things happen in their organizations because they allow it, or they create it. And that by choosing to focus a hundred percent on their inclusive leadership skills and up in their ability to interrupt bias, to be culturally fluent, they could transform their organizations because where the leader goes, everyone else follows. BREE: Right. CHRIS: That's great. That's awesome. Well, again, Kori, you have certainly cultivated my curiosity, which I know is one of the things that you strongly advocate for. Couldn't be prouder to have you on the podcast and the sharing of your perspective. We got to get you more platforms for you to be able to shout loudly about these particular issues, because again, we got a lot of work to do, right. We know that there's a lot to be done in terms of realizing the potential of this profession, to realizing the potential of historically underrepresented and marginalized lawyers within our profession. Bree, I think that we all would agree that even as we pursue our wellbeing mission, that so much more has to be done on the diversity, equity, and inclusion perspective that integrates in the intersection there between those two that lanes need to merge in a much more substantive way. KORI: Thank you. CHRIS: Thank you, Kori. KORI: I appreciate it. I appreciate you having me. I appreciate you allowing Justin to come and hold my hand because she's my blinky today. I appreciate you inviting us to talk about what we're doing at Seyfarth and just my perspective as an individual separate from Seyfarth. Again, I've said this before, the work you're doing is so critically important. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything that you do to promote wellbeing in the profession. So important. CHRIS: Awesome. Well, again, thanks for joining us. We will be back with the podcast probably in a couple weeks with our executive director, Jennifer DiSanza, which we are so excited to be having her join us as we talk about the future of where this movement is going. Thanks again, Kori. And to all our friends out there, we will be back in a couple weeks.

Welcome from Chad, Jon and Chris Thank you Pratik M, Jonathan K, Nathan E, Rory H and Mika Announcements and News  Con of the Rings 2022 Tickets on Sale now! conoftheringsmn.com Random Review Redo: The Heroes New Progression: Is there one? I just got the new Angmar Awakens hero box. Now What? AMA  Farewell!  

About ChrisChris Short has been a proponent of open source solutions throughout his over two decades in various IT disciplines, including systems, security, networks, DevOps management, and cloud native advocacy across the public and private sectors. He currently works on the Kubernetes team at Amazon Web Services and is an active Kubernetes contributor and Co-chair of OpenGitOps. Chris is a disabled US Air Force veteran living with his wife and son in Greater Metro Detroit. Chris writes about Cloud Native, DevOps, and other topics at ChrisShort.net. He also runs the Cloud Native, DevOps, GitOps, Open Source, industry news, and culture focused newsletter DevOps'ish.Links Referenced: DevOps'ish: https://devopsish.com/ EKS News: https://eks.news/ Containers from the Couch: https://containersfromthecouch.com opengitops.dev: https://opengitops.dev ChrisShort.net: https://chrisshort.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChrisShort TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Coming back to us since episode two—it's always nice to go back and see the where are they now type of approach—I am joined by Senior Developer Advocate at AWS Chris Short. Chris, been a few years. How has it been?Chris: Ha. Corey, we have talked outside of the podcast. But it's been good. For those that have been listening, I think when we recorded I wasn't even—like, when was season two, what year was that? [laugh].Corey: Episode two was first pre-pandemic and the rest. I believe—Chris: Oh. So, yeah. I was at Red Hat, maybe, when I—yeah.Corey: Yeah. You were doing Red Hat stuff, back when you got to work on open-source stuff, as opposed to now, where you're not within 1000 miles of that stuff, right?Chris: Actually well, no. So, to be clear, I'm on the EKS team, the Kubernetes team here at AWS. So, when I joined AWS in October, they were like, “Hey, you do open-source stuff. We like that. Do more.” And I was like, “Oh, wait, do more?” And they were like, “Yes, do more.” “Okay.”So, since joining AWS, I've probably done more open-source work than the three years at Red Hat that I did. So, that's kind of—you know, like, it's an interesting point when I talk to people about it because the first couple months are, like—you know, my friends are like, “So, are you liking it? Are you enjoying it? What's going on?” And—Corey: Do they beat you with reeds? Like, all the questions people have about companies? Because—Chris: Right. Like, I get a lot of random questions about Amazon and AWS that I don't know the answer to.Corey: Oh, when I started telling people, I fixed Amazon bills, I had to quickly pivot that to AWS bills because people started asking me, “Well, can you save me money on underpants?” It's I—Chris: Yeah.Corey: How do you—fine. Get the prime credit card. It docks 5% off the bill, so there you go. But other than that, no, I can't.Chris: No.Corey: It's—Chris: Like, I had to call my bank this morning about a transaction that I didn't recognize, and it was from Amazon. And I was like, that's weird. Why would that—Corey: Money just flows one direction, and that's the wrong direction from my employer.Chris: Yeah. Like, what is going on here? It shouldn't have been on that card kind of thing. And I had to explain to the person on the phone that I do work at Amazon but under the Web Services team. And he was like, “Oh, so you're in IT?”And I'm like, “No.” [laugh]. “It's actually this big company. That—it's a cloud company.” And they're like, “Oh, okay, okay. Yeah. The cloud. Got it.” [laugh]. So, it's interesting talking to people about, “I work at Amazon.” “Oh, my son works at Amazon distribution center,” blah, blah, blah. It's like, cool. “I know about that, but very little. I do this.”Corey: Your son works in Amazon distribution center. Is he a robot? Is normally my next question on that? Yeah. That's neither here nor there.So, you and I started talking a while back. We both write newsletters that go to a somewhat similar audience. You write DevOps'ish. I write Last Week in AWS. And recently, you also have started EKS News because, yeah, the one thing I look at when I'm doing these newsletters every week is, you know what I want to do? That's right. Write more newsletters.Chris: [laugh].Corey: So, you are just a glutton for punishment? And, yeah, welcome to the addiction, I suppose. How's it been going for you?Chris: It's actually been pretty interesting, right? Like, we haven't pushed it very hard. We're now starting to include it in things. Like we did Container Day; we made sure that EKS news was on the landing page for Container Day at KubeCon EU. And you know, it's kind of just grown organically since then.But it was one of those things where it's like, internally—this happened at Red Hat, right—when I started live streaming at Red Hat, the ultimate goal was to do our product management—like, here's what's new in the next version thing—do those live so anybody can see that at any point in time anywhere on Earth, the second it's available. Similar situation to here. This newsletter actually is generated as part of a report my boss puts together to brief our other DAs—or developer advocates—you know, our solutions architects, the whole nine yards about new EKS features. So, I was like, why can't we just flip that into a weekly newsletter, you know? Like, I can pull from the same sources you can.And what's interesting is, he only does the meeting bi-weekly. So, there's some weeks where it's just all me doing it and he ends up just kind of copying and pasting the newsletter into his document, [laugh] and then adds on for the week. But that report meeting for that team is now getting disseminated to essentially anyone that subscribes to eks.news. Just go to the site, there's a subscribe thing right there. And we've gotten 20 issues in and it's gotten rave reviews, right?Corey: I have been a subscriber for a while. I will say that it has less Chris Short personality—Chris: Mm-hm.Corey: —to it than DevOps'ish does, which I have to assume is by design. A lot of The Duckbill Group's marketing these days is no longer in my voice, rather intentionally, because it turns out that being a sarcastic jackass and doing half-billion dollar AWS contracts can not to be the most congruent thing in the world. So okay, we're slowly ameliorating that. It's professional voice versus snarky voice.Chris: Well, and here's the thing, right? Like, I realized this year with DevOps'ish that, like, if I want to take a week off, I have to do, like, what you did when your child was born. You hired folks to like, do the newsletter for you, or I actually don't do the newsletter, right? It's binary: hire someone else to do it, or don't do it. So, the way I structured this newsletter was that any developer advocate on my team could jump in and take over the newsletter so that, you know, if I'm off that week, or whatever may be happening, I, Chris Short, am not the voice. It is now the entire developer advocate team.Corey: I will challenge you on that a bit. Because it's not Chris Short voice, that's for sure, but it's also not official AWS brand voice either.Chris: No.Corey: It is clearly written by a human being who is used to communicating with the audience for whom it is written. And that is no small thing. Normally, when oh, there's a corporate newsletter; that's just a lot of words to say it's bad. This one is good. I want to be very clear on that.Chris: Yeah, I mean, we have just, like, DevOps'ish, we have sections, just like your newsletter, there's certain sections, so any new, what's new announcements, those go in automatically. So, like, that can get delivered to your inbox every Friday. Same thing with new blog posts about anything containers related to EKS, those will be in there, then Containers from the Couch, our streaming platform, essentially, for all things Kubernetes. Those videos go in.And then there's some ecosystem news as well that I collect and put in the newsletter to give people a broader sense of what's going on out there in Kubernetes-land because let's face it, there's upstream and then there's downstream, and sometimes those aren't in sync, and that's normal. That's how Kubernetes kind of works sometimes. If you're running upstream Kubernetes, you are awesome. I appreciate you, but I feel like that would cause more problems and it's worse sometimes.Corey: Thank you for being the trailblazers. The rest of us can learn from your misfortune.Chris: [laugh]. Yeah, exactly. Right? Like, please file your bugs accordingly. [laugh].Corey: EKS is interesting to me because I don't see a lot of it, which is, probably, going to get a whole lot of, “Wait, what?” Moments because wait, don't you deal with very large AWS bills? And I do. But what I mean by that is that EKS, until you're using its Fargate expression, charges for the control plane, which rounds to no money, and the rest is running on EC2 instances running in a company's account. From the billing perspective, there is no difference between, “We're running massive fleets of EKS nodes.” And, “We're managing a whole bunch of EC2 instances by hand.”And that feels like an interesting allegory for how Kubernetes winds up expressing itself to cloud providers. Because from a billing perspective, it just looks like one big single-tenant application that has some really strange behaviors internally. It gets very chatty across AZs when there's no reason to, and whatnot. And it becomes a very interesting study in how to expose aspects of what's going on inside of those containers and inside of the Kubernetes environment to the cloud provider in a way that becomes actionable. There are no good answers for this yet, but it's something I've been seeing a lot of. Like, “Oh, I thought you'd be running Kubernetes. Oh, wait, you are and I just keep forgetting what I'm looking at sometimes.”Chris: So, that's an interesting point. The billing is kind of like, yeah, it's just compute, right? So—Corey: And my insight into AWS and the way I start thinking about it is always from a billing perspective. That's great. It's because that means the more expensive the services, the more I know about it. It's like, “IAM. What is that?” Like, “Oh, I have no idea. It's free. How important could it be?” Professional advice: do not take that philosophy, ever.Chris: [laugh]. No. Ever. No.Corey: Security: it matters. Oh, my God. It's like you're all stars. Your IAM policy should not be. I digress.Chris: Right. Yeah. Anyways, so two points I want to make real quick on that is, one, we've recently released an open-source project called Carpenter, which is really cool in my purview because it looks at your Kubernetes file and says, “Oh, you want this to run on ARM instance.” And you can even go so far as to say, right, here's my limits, and it'll find an instance that fits those limits and add that to your cluster automatically. Run your pod on that compute as long as it needs to run and then if it's done, it'll downsize—eventually, kind of thing—your cluster.So, you can basically just throw a bunch of workloads at it, and it'll auto-detect what kind of compute you will need and then provision it for you, run it, and then be done. So, that is one-way folks are probably starting to save money running EKS is to adopt Carpenter as your autoscaler as opposed to the inbuilt Kubernetes autoscaler. Because this is instance-aware, essentially, so it can say, like, “Oh, your massive ARM application can run here,” because you know, thank you, Graviton. We have those processors in-house. And you know, you can run your ARM64 instances, you can run all the Intel workloads you want, and it'll right size the compute for your workloads.And I'll look at one container or all your containers, however you want to configure it. Secondly, the good folks over at Kubecost have opencost, which is the open-source version of Kubecost, basically. So, they have a service that you can run in your clusters that will help you say, “Hey, maybe this one notes too heavy; maybe this one notes too light,” and you know, give you some insights into Kubernetes spend that are a little bit more granular as far as usage and things like that go. So, those two projects right there, I feel like, will give folks an optimal savings experience when it comes to Kubernetes. But to your point, it's just compute, right? And that's really how we treat it, kind of, here internally is that it's a way to run… compute, Kubernetes, or ECS, or any of those tools.Corey: A fairly expensive one because ignoring entirely for a second the actual raw cost of compute, you also have the other side of it, which is in every environment, unless you are doing something very strange or pre-funding as a one-person startup in your spare time, your payroll costs will it—should—exceed your AWS bill by a fairly healthy amount. And engineering time is always more expensive than services time. So, for example, looking at EKS, I would absolutely recommend people use that rather than rolling their own because—Chris: Rolling their own? Yeah.Corey: —get out of that engineering space where your time is free. I assure you from a business context, it is not. So, there's always that question of what you can do to make things easier for people and do more of the heavy lifting.Chris: Yeah, and to your rather cheeky point that there's 17 ways to run a container on AWS, it is answering that question, right? Like those 17 ways, like, how much of this do you want to run yourself, you could run EKS distro on EC2 instances if you want full control over your environment.Corey: And then run IoT Greengrass core on top within that cluster—Chris: Right.Corey: So, I can run my own Lambda function runtime, so I'm not locked in. Also, DynamoDB local so I'm not locked into AWS. At which point I have gone so far around the bend, no one can help me.Chris: Well—Corey: Pro tip, don't do that. Just don't do that.Chris: But to your point, we have all these options for compute, and specifically containers because there's a lot of people that want to granularly say, “This is where my engineering team gets involved. Everything else you handle.” If I want EKS on Spot Instances only, you can do that. If you want EKS to use Carpenter and say only run ARM workloads, you can do that. If you want to say Fargate and not have anything to manage other than the container file, you can do that.It's how much does your team want to manage? That's the customer obsession part of AWS coming through when it comes to containers is because there's so many different ways to run those workloads, but there's so many different ways to make sure that your team is right-sized, based off the services you're using.Corey: I do want to change gears a bit here because you are mostly known for a couple of things: the DevOps'ish newsletter because that is the oldest and longest thing you've been doing the time that I've known you; EKS, obviously. But when prepping for this show, I discovered you are now co-chair of the OpenGitOps project.Chris: Yes.Corey: So, I have heard of GitOps in the context of, “Oh, it's just basically your CI/CD stuff is triggered by Git events and whatnot.” And I'm sitting here going, “Okay, so from where you're sitting, the two best user interfaces in the world that you have discovered are YAML and Git.” And I just have to start with the question, “Who hurt you?”Chris: [laugh]. Yeah, I share your sentiment when it comes to Git. Not so much with YAML, but I think it's because I'm so used to it. Maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome, maybe the whole YAML thing. I don't know.Corey: Well, it's no XML. We'll put it that way.Chris: Thankfully, yes because if it was, I would have way more, like, just template files laying around to build things. But the—Corey: And rage. Don't forget rage.Chris: And rage, yeah. So, GitOps is a little bit more than just Git in IaC—infrastructure as Code. It's more like Justin Garrison, who's also on my team, he calls it infrastructure software because there's four main principles to GitOps, and if you go to opengitops.dev, you can see them. It's version one.So, we put them on the website, right there on the page. You have to have a declared state and that state has to live somewhere. Now, it's called GitOps because Git is probably the most full-featured thing to put your state in, but you could use an S3 bucket and just version it, for example. And make it private so no one else can get to it.Corey: Or you could use local files: copy-of-copy-of-this-thing-restored-parentheses-use-this-one-dot-final-dot-doc-dot-zip. You know, my preferred naming convention.Chris: Ah, yeah. Wow. Okay. [laugh]. Yeah.Corey: Everything I touch is terrifying.Chris: Yes. Geez, I'm sorry. So first, it's declarative. You declare your state. You store it somewhere. It's versioned and immutable, like I said. And then pulled automatically—don't focus so much on pull—but basically, software agents are applying the desired state from source. So, what does that mean? When it's—you know, the fourth principle is implemented, continuously reconciled. That means those software agents that are checking your desired state are actually putting it back into the desired state if it's out of whack, right? So—Corey: You're talking about agents running it persistently on instances, validating—Chris: Yes.Corey: —a checkpoint on a cron. How is this meaningfully different than a Puppet agent running in years past? Having spent I learned to speak publicly by being a traveling trainer for Puppet; same type of model, and in fact, when I was at Pinterest, we wound up having a fair bit—like, that was their entire model, where they would have—the Puppet's code would live in an S3 bucket that was then copied down, I believe, via Git, and then applied to the instance on a schedule. Like, that sounds like this was sort of a early days GitOps.Chris: Yeah, exactly. Right? Like so it's, I like to think of that as a component of GitOps, right? DevOps, when you talk about DevOps in general, there's a lot of stuff out there. There's a lot of things labeled DevOps that maybe are, or maybe aren't sticking to some of those DevOps core things that make you great.Like the stuff that Nicole Forsgren writes about in books, you know? Accelerate is on my desk for a reason because there's things that good, well-managed DevOps practices do. I see GitOps as an actual implementation of DevOps in an open-source manner because all the tooling for GitOps these days is open-source and it all started as open-source. Now, you can get, like, Flux or Argo—Argo, specifically—there's managed services out there for it, you can have Flux and not maintain it, through an add-on, on EKS for example, and it will reconcile that state for you automatically. And the other thing I like to say about GitOps, specifically, is that it moves at the speed of the Kubernetes Audit Log.If you've ever looked at a Kubernetes audit log, you know it's rather noisy with all these groups and versions and kinds getting thrown out there. So, GitOps will say, “Oh, there's an event for said thing that I'm supposed to be watching. Do I need to change anything? Yes or no? Yes? Okay, go.”And the change gets applied, or, “Hey, there's a new Git thing. Pull it in. A change has happened inGit I need to update it.” You can set it to reconcile on events on time. It's like a cron or it's like an event-driven architecture, but it's combined.Corey: How does it survive the stake through the heart of configuration management? Because before I was doing all this, I wasn't even a T-shaped engineer: you're broad across a bunch of things, but deep in one or two areas, and one of mine was configuration management. I wrote part of SaltStack, once upon a time—Chris: Oh.Corey: —due to a bunch of very strange coincidences all hitting it once, like, I taught people how to use Puppet. But containers ultimately arose and the idea of immutable infrastructure became a thing. And these days when we were doing full-on serverless, well, great, I just wind up deploying a new code bundle to the Lambdas function that I wind up caring about, and that is a immutable version replacement. There is no drift because there is no way to log in and change those things other than through a clear deployment of this as the new version that goes out there. Where does GitOps fit into that imagined pattern?Chris: So, configuration management becomes part of your approval process, right? So, you now are generating an audit log, essentially, of all changes to your system through the approval process that you set up as part of your, how you get things into source and then promote that out to production. That's kind of the beauty of it, right? Like, that's why we suggest using Git because it has functions, like, requests and issues and things like that you can say, “Hey, yes, I approve this,” or, “Hey, no, I don't approve that. We need changes.” So, that's kind of natively happening with Git and, you know, GitLab, GitHub, whatever implementation of Git. There's always, kind of—Corey: Uh, JIF-ub is, I believe, the pronunciation.Chris: JIF-ub? Oh.Corey: Yeah. That's what I'm—Chris: Today, I learned. Okay.Corey: Exactly. And that's one of the things that I do for my lasttweetinaws.com Twitter client that I build—because I needed it, and if other people want to use it, that's great—that is now deployed to 20 different AWS commercial regions, simultaneously. And that is done via—because it turns out that that's a very long to execute for loop if you start down that path—Chris: Well, yeah.Corey: I wound up building out a GitHub Actions matrix—sorry a JIF-ub—actions matrix job that winds up instantiating 20 parallel builds of the CDK deploy that goes out to each region as expected. And because that gets really expensive with native GitHub Actions runners for, like, 36 cents per deploy, and I don't know how to test my own code, so every time I have a typo, that's another quarter in the jar. Cool, but that was annoying for me so I built my own custom runner system that uses Lambda functions as runners running containers pulled from ECR that, oh, it just runs in parallel, less than three minutes. Every time I commit something between I press the push button and it is out and running in the wild across all regions. Which is awesome and also terrifying because, as previously mentioned, I don't know how to test my code.Chris: Yeah. So, you don't know what you're deploying to 20 regions sometime, right?Corey: But it also means I have a pristine, re-composable build environment because I can—Chris: Right.Corey: Just automatically have that go out and the fact that I am making a—either merging a pull request or doing a direct push because I consider main to be my feature branch as whenever something hits that, all the automation kicks off. That was something that I found to be transformative as far as a way of thinking about this because I was very tired of having to tweak my local laptop environment to, “Oh, you didn't assume the proper role and everything failed again and you broke it. Good job.” It wound up being something where I could start developing on more and more disparate platforms. And it finally is what got me away from my old development model of everything I build is on an EC2 instance, and that means that my editor of choice was Vim. I use the VS Code now for these things, and I'm pretty happy with it.Chris: Yeah. So, you know, I'm glad you brought up CDK. CDK gives you a lot of the capabilities to implement GitOps in a way that you could say, like, “Hey, use CDK to declare I need four Amazon EKS clusters with this size, shape, and configuration. Go.” Or even further, connect to these EKS clusters to RDS instances and load balancers and everything else.But you put that state into Git and then you have something that deploys that automatically upon changes. That is infrastructure as code. Now, when you say, “Okay, main is your feature branch,” you know, things happen on main, if this were running in Kubernetes across a fleet of clusters or the globe-wide in 20 regions, something like Flux or Argo would kick in and say, “There's been a change to source, main, and we need to roll this out.” And it'll start applying those changes. Now, what do you get with GitOps that you don't get with your configuration?I mean, can you rollback if you ever have, like, a bad commit that's just awful? I mean, that's really part of the process with GitOps is to make sure that you can, A, roll back to the previous good state, B, roll forward to a known good state, or C, promote that state up through various environments. And then having that all done declaratively, automatically, and immutably, and versioned with an audit log, that I think is the real power of GitOps in the sense that, like, oh, so-and-so approve this change to security policy XYZ on this date at this time. And that to an auditor, you just hand them a log file on, like, “Here's everything we've ever done to our system. Done.” Right?Like, you could get to that state, if you want to, which I think is kind of the idea of DevOps, which says, “Take all these disparate tools and processes and procedures and culture changes”—culture being the hardest part to adopt in DevOps; GitOps kind of forces a culture change where, like, you can't do a CAB with GitOps. Like, those two things don't fly. You don't have a configuration management database unless you absolutely—Corey: Oh, you CAB now but they're all the comments of the pull request.Chris: Right. Exactly. Like, don't push this change out until Thursday after this other thing has happened, kind of thing. Yeah, like, that all happens in GitHub. But it's very democratizing in the sense that people don't have to waste time in an hour-long meeting to get their five minutes in, right?Corey: DoorDash had a problem. As their cloud-native environment scaled and developers delivered new features, their monitoring system kept breaking down. In an organization where data is used to make better decisions about technology and about the business, losing observability means the entire company loses their competitive edge. With Chronosphere, DoorDash is no longer losing visibility into their applications suite. The key? Chronosphere is an open-source compatible, scalable, and reliable observability solution that gives the observability lead at DoorDash business, confidence, and peace of mind. Read the full success story at snark.cloud/chronosphere. That's snark.cloud slash C-H-R-O-N-O-S-P-H-E-R-E.Corey: So, would it be overwhelmingly cynical to suggest that GitOps is the means to implement what we've all been pretending to have implemented for the last decade when giving talks at conferences?Chris: Ehh, I wouldn't go that far. I would say that GitOps is an excellent way to implement the things you've been talking about at all these conferences for all these years. But keep in mind, the technology has changed a lot in the, what 11, 12 years of the existence of DevOps, now. I mean, we've gone from, let's try to manage whole servers immutably to, “Oh, now we just need to maintain an orchestration platform and run containers.” That whole compute interface, you go from SSH to a Docker file, that's a big leap, right?Like, you don't have bespoke sysadmins; you have, like, a platform team. You don't have DevOps engineers; they're part of that platform team, or DevOps teams, right? Like, which was kind of antithetical to the whole idea of DevOps to have a DevOps team. You know, everybody's kind of in the same boat now, where we see skill sets kind of changing. And GitOps and Kubernetes-land is, like, a platform team that manages the cluster, and its state, and health and, you know, production essentially.And then you have your developers deploying what they want to deploy in when whatever namespace they've been given access to and whatever rights they have. So, now you have the potential for one set of people—the platform team—to use one set of GitOps tooling, and your applications teams might not like that, and that's fine. They can have their own namespaces with their own tooling in it. Like, Argo, for example, is preferred by a lot of developers because it has a nice UI with green and red dots and they can show people and it looks nice, Flux, it's command line based. And there are some projects out there that kind of take the UI of Argo and try to run Flux underneath that, and those are cool kind of projects, I think, in my mind, but in general, right, I think GitOps gives you the choice that we missed somewhat in DevOps implementations of the past because it was, “Oh, we need to go get cloud.” “Well, you can only use this cloud.” “Oh, we need to go get this thing.” “Well, you can only use this thing in-house.”And you know, there's a lot of restrictions sometimes placed on what you can use in your environment. Well, if your environment is Kubernetes, how do you restrict what you can run, right? Like you can't have an easily configured say, no open-source policy if you're running Kubernetes. [laugh] so it becomes, you know—Corey: Well, that doesn't stop some companies from trying.Chris: Yeah, that's true. But the idea of, like, enabling your developers to deploy at will and then promote their changes as they see fit is really the dream of DevOps, right? Like, same with production and platform teams, right? I want to push my changes out to a larger system that is across the globe. How do I do that? How do I manage that? How do I make sure everything's consistent?GitOps gives you those ways, with Kubernetes native things like customizations, to make consistent environments that are robust and actually going to be reconciled automatically if someone breaks the glass and says, “Oh, I need to run this container immediately.” Well, that's going to create problems because it's deviated from state and it's just that one region, so we'll put it back into state.Corey: It'll be dueling banjos, at some point. You'll try and doing something manually, it gets reverted automatically. I love that pattern. You'll get bored before the computer does, always.Chris: Yeah. And GitOps is very new, right? When you think about the lifetime of GitOps, I think it was coined in, like, 2018. So, it's only four years old, right? When—Corey: I prefer it to ChatOps, at least, as far as—Chris: Well, I mean—Corey: —implementation and expression of the thing.Chris: —ChatOps was a way to do DevOps. I think GitOps—Corey: Well, ChatOps is also a way to wind up giving whoever gets access to your Slack workspace root in production.Chris: Mmm.Corey: But that's neither here nor there.Chris: Mm-hm.Corey: It's yeah, we all like to pretend that's not a giant security issue in our industry, but that's a topic for another time.Chris: Yeah. And that's why, like, GitOps also depends upon you having good security, you know, and good authorization and approval processes. It enforces that upon—Corey: Yeah, who doesn't have one of those?Chris: Yeah. If it's a sole operation kind of deal, like in your setup, your case, I think you kind of got it doing right, right? Like, as far as GitOps goes—Corey: Oh, to be clear, we are 11 people and we do have dueling pull requests and all the rest.Chris: Right, right, right.Corey: But most of the stuff I talk about publicly is not our production stuff, so it really is just me. Just as a point of clarity there. I've n—the 11 people here do not all—the rest of you don't just sit there and clap as I do all the work.Chris: Right.Corey: Most days.Chris: No, I'm sure they don't. I'm almost certain they don't clap… for you. I mean, they would—Corey: No. No, they try and talk me out of it in almost every case.Chris: Yeah, exactly. So, the setup that you, Corey Quinn, have implemented to deploy these 20 regions is kind of very GitOps-y, in the sense that when main changes, it gets updated. Where it's not GitOps-y is what if the endpoint changes? Does it get reconciled? That's the piece you're probably missing is that continuous reconciliation component, where it's constantly checking and saying, “This thing out there is deployed in the way I want it. You know, the way I declared it to be in my source of truth.”Corey: Yeah, when you start having other people getting involved, there can—yeah, that's where regressions enter. And it's like, “Well, I know where things are so why would I change the endpoint?” Yeah, it turns out, not everyone has the state of the entire application in their head. Ideally it should live in—Chris: Yeah. Right. And, you know—Corey: —you know, Git or S3.Chris: —when I—yeah, exactly. When I think about interactions of the past coming out as a new DevOps engineer to work with developers, it's always been, will developers have access to prod or they don't? And if you're in that environment with—you're trying to run a multi-billion dollar operation, and your devs have direct—or one Dev has direct access to prod because prod is in his brain, that's where it's like, well, now wait a minute. Prod doesn't have to be only in your brain. You can put that in the codebase and now we know what is in your brain, right?Like, you can almost do—if you document your code, well, you can have your full lifecycle right there in one place, including documentation, which I think is the best part, too. So, you know, it encourages approval processes and automation over this one person has an entire state of the system in their head; they have to go in and fix it. And what if they're not on call, or in Jamaica, or on a cruise ship somewhere kind of thing? Things get difficult. Like, for example, I just got back from vacation. We were so far off the grid, we had satellite internet. And let me tell you, it was hard to write an email newsletter where I usually open 50 to 100 tabs.Corey: There's a little bit of internet out Californ-ie way.Chris: [laugh].Corey: Yeah it's… it's always weird going from, like, especially after pandemic; I have gigabit symmetric here and going even to re:Invent where I'm trying to upload a bunch of video and whatnot.Chris: Yeah. Oh wow.Corey: And the conference WiFi was doing its thing, and well, Verizon 5G was there but spotty. And well, yeah. Usual stuff.Chris: Yeah. It's amazing to me how connectivity has become so ubiquitous.Corey: To the point where when it's not there anymore, it's what do I do with myself? Same story about people pushing back against remote development of, “Oh, I'm just going to do it all on my laptop because what happens if I'm on a plane?” It's, yeah, the year before the pandemic, I flew 140,000 miles domestically and I was almost never hamstrung by my ability to do work. And my only local computer is an iPad for those things. So, it turns out that is less of a real world concern for most folks.Chris: Yeah I actually ordered the components to upgrade an old Nook that I have here and turn it into my, like, this is my remote code server, that's going to be all attached to GitHub and everything else. That's where I want to be: have Tailscale and just VPN into this box.Corey: Tailscale is transformative.Chris: Yes. Tailscale will change your life. That's just my personal opinion.Corey: Yep.Chris: That's not an AWS opinion or anything. But yeah, when you start thinking about your network as it could be anywhere, that's where Tailscale, like, really shines. So—Corey: Tailscale makes the internet work like we all wanted to believe that it worked.Chris: Yeah. And Wireguard is an excellent open-source project. And Tailscale consumes that and puts an amazingly easy-to-use UI, and troubleshooting tools, and routing, and all kinds of forwarding capabilities, and makes it kind of easy, which is really, really, really kind of awesome. And Tailscale and Kubernetes—Corey: Yeah, ‘network' and ‘easy' don't belong in the same sentence, but in this case, they do.Chris: Yeah. And trust me, the Kubernetes story in Tailscale, there is a lot of there. I understand you might want to not open ports in your VPC, maybe, but if you use Tailscale, that node is just another thing on your network. You can connect to that and see what's going on. Your management cluster is just another thing on the network where you can watch the state.But it's all—you're connected to it continuously through Tailscale. Or, you know, it's a much lighter weight, kind of meshy VPN, I would say, if I had to sum it up in one sentence. That was not on our agenda to talk about at all. Anyways. [laugh]Corey: No, no. I love how many different topics we talk about on these things. We'll have to have you back soon to talk again. I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time. If people want to learn more about what you're up to and how you view these things, where can they find you?Chris: Go to ChrisShort.net. So, Chris Short—I'm six-four so remember, it's Short—dot net, and you will find all the places that I write, you can go to devopsish.com to subscribe to my newsletter, which goes out every week. This year. Next year, there'll be breaks. And then finally, if you want to follow me on Twitter, Chris Short: at @ChrisShort on Twitter. All one word so you see two s's. Like, it's okay, there's two s's there.Corey: Links to all of that will of course be in the show notes. It's easier for people to do the clicky-clicky thing as a general rule.Chris: Clicky things are easier than the wordy things, yes.Corey: Says the Kubernetes guy.Chris: Yeah. Says the Kubernetes guy. Yeah, you like that, huh? Like I said, Argo gives you a UI. [laugh].Corey: Thank you [laugh] so much for your time. I really do appreciate it.Chris: Thank you. This has been fun. If folks have questions, feel free to reach out. Like, I am not one of those people that hides behind a screen all day and doesn't respond. I will respond to you eventually.Corey: I'm right here, Chris. Come on, come on. You're calling me out in front of myself. My God.Chris: Egh. It might take a day or two, but I will respond. I promise.Corey: Thanks again for your time. This has been Chris Short, senior developer advocate at AWS. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and if it's YouTube, click the thumbs-up button. Whereas if you've hated this podcast, same thing, smash the buttons five-star review and leave an insulting comment that is written in syntactically correct YAML because it's just so easy to do.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

About ChrisChris is the Co-founder and Chief Product Officer at incident.io, where they're building incident management products that people actually want to use. A software engineer by trade, Chris is no stranger to gnarly incidents, having participated (and caused!) them at everything from early stage startups through to enormous IT organizations.Links Referenced: incident.io: https://incident.io Practical Guide to Incident Management: https://incident.io/guide/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: DoorDash had a problem. As their cloud-native environment scaled and developers delivered new features, their monitoring system kept breaking down. In an organization where data is used to make better decisions about technology and about the business, losing observability means the entire company loses their competitive edge. With Chronosphere, DoorDash is no longer losing visibility into their applications suite. The key? Chronosphere is an open-source compatible, scalable, and reliable observability solution that gives the observability lead at DoorDash business, confidence, and peace of mind. Read the full success story at snark.cloud/chronosphere. That's snark.cloud slash C-H-R-O-N-O-S-P-H-E-R-E.Corey: Let's face it, on-call firefighting at 2am is stressful! So there's good news and there's bad news. The bad news is that you probably can't prevent incidents from happening, but the good news is that incident.io makes incidents less stressful and a lot more valuable. incident.io is a Slack-native incident management platform that allows you to automate incident processes, focus on fixing the issues and learn from incident insights to improve site reliability and fix your vulnerabilities. Try incident.io, recover faster and sleep more.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today's promoted guest is Chris Evans, who's the CPO and co-founder of incident.io. Chris, first, thank you very much for joining me. And I'm going to start with an easy question—well, easy question, hard answer, I think—what is an incident.io exactly?Chris: Incident.io is a software platform that helps entire organizations to respond to recover from and learn from incidents.Corey: When you say incident, that means an awful lot of things. And depending on where you are in the ecosystem in the world, that means different things to different people. For example, oh, incident. Like, “Are you talking about the noodle incident because we had an agreement that we would never speak about that thing again,” style, versus folks who are steeped in DevOps or SRE culture, which is, of course, a fancy way to say those who are sad all the time, usually about computers. What is an incident in the context of what you folks do?Chris: That, I think, is the killer question. I think if you look at organizations in the past, I think incidents were those things that happened once a quarter, maybe once a year, and they were the thing that brought the entirety of your site down because your big central database that was in a data center sort of disappeared. The way that modern companies run means that the definition has to be very, very different. So, most places now rely on distributed systems and there is no, sort of, binary sense of up or down these days. And essentially, in the general case, like, most companies are continually in a sort of state of things being broken all of the time.And so, for us, when we look at what an incident is, it is essentially anything that takes you away from your planned work with a sense of urgency. And that's the sort of the pithy definition that we use there. Generally, that can mean anything—it means different things to different folks, and, like, when we talk to folks, we encourage them to think carefully about what that threshold is, but generally, for us at incident.io, that means basically a single error that is worthwhile investigating that you would stop doing your backlog work for is an incident. And also an entire app being down, that is an incident.So, there's quite a wide range there. But essentially, by sort of having more incidents and lowering that threshold, you suddenly have a heap of benefits, which I can go very deep into and talk for hours about.Corey: It's a deceptively complex question. When I talk to folks about backups, one of the biggest problems in the world of backup and building a DR plan, it's not building the DR plan—though that's no picnic either—it's okay. In the time of cloud, all your planning figures out, okay. Suddenly the site is down, how do we fix it? There are different levels of down and that means different things to different people where, especially the way we build apps today, it's not is the service or site up or down, but with distributed systems, it's how down is it?And oh, we're seeing elevated error rates in us-tire-fire-1 region of AWS. At what point do we begin executing on our disaster plan? Because the worst answer, in some respects is, every time you think you see a problem, you start failing over to other regions and other providers and the rest, and three minutes in, you've irrevocably made the cutover and it's going to take 15 minutes to come back up. And oh, yeah, then your primary site comes back up because whoever unplugged something, plugged it back in and now you've made the wrong choice. Figuring out all the things around the incident, it's not what it once was.When you were running your own blog on a single web server and it's broken, it's pretty easy to say, “Is it up or is it down?” As you scale out, it seems like that gets more and more diffuse. But it feels to me that it's also less of a question of how the technology has scaled, but also how the culture and the people have scaled. When you're the only engineer somewhere, you pretty much have no choice but to have the entire state of your stack shoved into your head. When that becomes 15 or 20 different teams of people, in some cases, it feels like it's almost less than a technology problem than it is a problem of how you communicate and how you get people involved. And the issues in front of the people who are empowered and insightful in a certain area that needs fixing.Chris: A hundred percent. This is, like, a really, really key point, which is that organizations themselves are very complex. And so, you've got this combination of systems getting more and more complicated, more and more sort of things going wrong and perpetually breaking but you've got very, very complicated information structures and communication throughout the whole organization to keep things up and running. The very best orgs are the ones where they can engage the entire, sort of, every corner of the organization when things do go wrong. And lived and breathed this firsthand when various different previous companies, but most recently at Monzo—which is a bank here in the UK—when an incident happened there, like, one of our two physical data center locations went down, the bank wasn't offline. Everything was resilient to that, but that required an immediate response.And that meant that engineers were deployed to go and fix things. But it also meant the customer support folks might be required to get involved because we might be slightly slower processing payments. And it means that risk and compliance folks might need to get involved because they need to be reporting things to regulators. And the list goes on. There's, like, this need for a bunch of different people who almost certainly have never worked together or rarely worked together to come together, land in this sort of like empty space of this incident room or virtual incident room, and figure out how they're going to coordinate their response and get things back on track in the sort of most streamlined way and as quick as possible.Corey: Yeah, when your bank is suddenly offline, that seems like a really inopportune time to be introduced to the database team. It's, “Oh, we have one of those. Wonderful. I feel like you folks are going to come in handy later today.” You want to have those pathways of communication open well in advance of these issues.Chris: A hundred percent. And I think the thing that makes incidents unique is that fact. And I think the solution to that is this sort of consistent, level playing field that you can put everybody on. So, if everybody understands that the way that incidents are dealt with is consistent, we declare it like this, and under these conditions, these things happen. And, you know, if I flag this kind of level of impact, we have to pull in someone else to come and help make a decision.At the core of it, there's this weird kind of duality to incidents where they are both kind of semi-formulaic and that you can basically encode a lot of the processes that happen, but equally, they are incredibly chaotic and require a lot of human impact to be resilient and figure these things out because stuff that you have never seen happen before is happening and failing in ways that you never predicted. And so, this is where incident.io plays into this is that we try to take the first half of that off of your hands, which is, we will help you run your process so that all of the brain capacity you have, it goes on to the bit that humans are uniquely placed to be able to do, which is responding to these very, very chaotic, sort of, surprise events that have happened.Corey: I feel as well—because I played around in this space a bit before I used to run ops teams—and, more or less I really should have had a t-shirt then that said, “I am the root cause,” because yeah, I basically did a lot of self-inflicted outages in various environments because it turns out, I'm not always the best with computers. Imagine that. There are a number of different companies that play in the space that look at some part of the incident lifecycle. And from the outside, first, they all look alike because it's, “Oh, so you're incident.io. I assume you're PagerDuty. You're the thing that calls me at two in the morning to make sure I wake up.”Conversely, for folks who haven't worked deeply in that space, as well, of setting things on fire, what you do sounds like it's highly susceptible to the Hacker News problem. Where, “Wait, so what you do is effectively just getting people to coordinate and talk during an incident? Well, that doesn't sound hard. I could do that in a weekend.” And no, no, you can't.If this were easy, you would not have been in business as long as you have, have the team the size that you do, the customers that you do. But it's one of those things that until you've been in a very specific set of a problem, it doesn't sound like it's a real problem that needs solving.Chris: Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that the Hacker News point is a particularly pertinent one and that someone else, sort of, in an adjacent area launched on Hacker News recently, and the amount of feedback they got around, you know, “You're a Slack bot. How is this a company?” Was kind of staggering. And I think generally where that comes from is—well, first of all that bias that engineers have, which is just everything you look at as an engineer is like, “Yeah, I can build that in a weekend.” I think there's often infinite complexity under the hood that just gets kind of brushed over. But yeah, I think at the core of it, you probably could build a Slack bot in a weekend that creates a channel for you in Slack and allows you to post somewhere that some—Corey: Oh, good. More channels in Slack. Just when everyone wants.Chris: Well, there you go. I mean, that's a particular pertinent one because, like, our tool does do that. And one of the things—so I built at Monzo, a version of incident.io that we used at the company there, and that was something that I built evenings and weekends. And among the many, many things I never got around to building, archiving and cleaning up channels was one of the ones that was always on that list.And so, Monzo did have this problem of littered channels everywhere, I think that sort of like, part of the problem here is, like, it is easy to look at a product like ours and sort of assume it is this sort of friendly Slack bot that helps you orchestrate some very basic commands. And I think when you actually dig into the problems that organizations above a certain size have, they're not solved by Slack bots. They're solved by platforms that help you to encode your processes that otherwise have to live on a Google Doc somewhere which is five pages long and when it's 2 a.m. and everything's on fire, I guarantee you not a single person reads that Google Doc, so your process is as good as not in place at all. That's the beauty of a tool like ours. We have a powerful engine that helps you basically to encode that and take some load off of you.Corey: To be clear, I'm also not coming at this from a position of judging other people. I just look right now at the Slack workspace that we have The Duckbill Group, and we have something like a ten-to-one channel-to-human ratio. And the proliferation of channels is a very real thing. And the problem that I've seen across the board with other things that try to address incident management has always been fanciful at best about what really happens when something breaks. Like, you talk about, oh, here's what happens. Step one: you will pull up the Google Doc, or you will pull up the wiki or the rest, or in some aspirational places, ah, something seems weird, I will go open a ticket in Jira.Meanwhile, here in reality, anyone who's ever worked in these environments knows that step one, “Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit. What are we going to do?” And all the practices and procedures that often exist, especially in orgs that aren't very practiced at these sorts of things, tend to fly out the window and people are going to do what they're going to do. So, any tool or any platform that winds up addressing that has to accept the reality of meeting people where they are not trying to educate people into different patterns of behavior as such. One of the things I like about your approach is, yeah, it's going to be a lot of conversation in Slack that is a given we can pretend otherwise, but here in reality, that is how work gets communicated, particularly in extremis. And I really appreciate the fact that you are not trying to, like, fight what feels almost like a law of nature at this point.Chris: Yeah, I think there's a few things in that. The first point around the document approach or the clearly defined steps of how an incident works. In my experience, those things have always gone wrong because—Corey: The data center is down, so we're going to the wiki to follow our incident management procedure, which is in the data center just lost power.Chris: Yeah.Corey: There's a dependency problem there, too. [laugh].Chris: Yeah, a hundred percent. [laugh]. A hundred percent. And I think part of the problem that I see there is that very, very often, you've got this situation where the people designing the process are not the people following the process. And so, there's this classic, I've heard it through John Allspaw, but it's a bunch of other folks who talk about the difference between people, you know, at the sharp end or the blunt end of the work.And I think the problem that people are facing the past is you have these people who sit in the, sort of, metaphorical upstairs of the office and think that they make a company safe by defining a process on paper. And they ship the piece of paper and go, “That is a good job for me done. I'm going to leave and know that I've made the bank—the other whatever your organization does—much, much safer.” And I think this is where things fall down because—Corey: I want to ambush some of those people in their performance reviews with, “Cool. Just for fun, all the documentation here, we're going to pull up the analytics to see how often that stuff gets viewed. Oh, nobody ever sees it. Hmm.”Chris: It's frustrating. It's frustrating because that never ever happens, clearly. But the point you made around, like, meeting people where you are, I think that is a huge one, which is incidents are founded on great communication. Like, as I said earlier, this is, like, a form of team with someone you've never ever worked with before and the last thing you want to do is be, like, “Hey, Corey, I've never met you before, but let's jump out onto this other platform somewhere that I've never been or haven't been for weeks and we'll try and figure stuff out over there.” It's like, no, you're going to be communicating—Corey: We use Slack internally, but we have a WhatsApp chat that we wind up using for incident stuff, so go ahead and log into WhatsApp, which you haven't done in 18 months, and join the chat. Yeah, in the dawn of time, in the mists of antiquity, you vaguely remember hearing something about that your first week and then never again. This stuff has to be practiced and it's important to get it right. How do you approach the inherent and often unfortunate reality that incident response and management inherently becomes very different depending upon the specifics of your company or your culture or something like that? In other words, how cookie-cutter is what you have built versus adaptable to different environments it finds itself operating in?Chris: Man, the amount of time we spent as a founding team in the early days deliberating over how opinionated we should be versus how flexible we should be was staggering. The way we like to describe it as we are quite opinionated about how we think incidents should be run, however we let you imprint your own process into that, so putting some color onto that. We expect incidents to have a lead. That is something you cannot get away from. However, you can call the lead whatever makes sense for you at your organization. So, some folks call them an incident commander or a manager or whatever else.Corey: There's overwhelming militarization of these things. Like, oh, yes, we're going to wind up taking a bunch of terms from the military here. It's like, you realize that your entire giant screaming fire is that the lights on the screen are in the wrong pattern. You're trying to make them in the right pattern. No one dies here in most cases, so it feels a little grandiose for some of those terms being tossed around in some cases, but I get it. You've got to make something that is unpleasant and tedious in many respects, a little bit more gripping. I don't envy people. Messaging is hard.Chris: Yeah, it is. And I think if you're overly virtuoustic and inflexible, you're sort of fighting an uphill battle here, right? So, folks are going to want to call things what they want to call things. And you've got people who want to import [ITIL 00:15:04] definitions for severity ease into the platform because that's what they're familiar with. That's fine.What we are opinionated about is that you have some severity levels because absent academic criticism of severity levels, they are a useful mechanism to very coarsely and very quickly assess how bad something is and to take some actions off of it. So yeah, we basically have various points in the product where you can customize and put your own sort of flavor on it, but generally, we have a relatively opinionated end-to-end expectation of how you will run that process.Corey: The thing that I find that annoys me—in some cases—the most is how heavyweight the process is, and it's clearly built by people in an ivory tower somewhere where there's effectively a two-day long postmortem analysis of the incident, and so on and so forth. And okay, great. Your entire site has been blown off the internet, yeah, that probably makes sense. But as soon as you start broadening that to things like okay, an increase in 500 errors on this service for 30 minutes, “Great. Well, we're going to have a two-day postmortem on that.” It's, “Yeah, sure would be nice if we could go two full days without having another incident of that caliber.” So, in other words, whose foot—are we going to hire a new team whose full-time job it is, is to just go ahead and triage and learn from all these incidents? Seems to me like that's sort of throwing wood behind the wrong arrows.Chris: Yeah, I think it's very reductive to suggest that learning only happens in a postmortem process. So, I wrote a blog, actually, not so long ago that is about running postmortems and when it makes sense to do it. And as part of that, I had a sort of a statement that was [laugh] that we haven't run a single postmortem when I wrote this blog at incident.io. Which is probably shocking to many people because we're an incident company, and we talk about this stuff, but we were also a company of five people and when something went wrong, the learning was happening and these things were sort of—we were carving out the time, whether it was called a postmortem, or not to learn and figure out these things. Extrapolating that to bigger companies, there is little value in following processes for the sake of following processes. And so, you could have—Corey: Someone in compliance just wound up spitting their coffee over their desktop as soon as you said that. But I hear you.Chris: Yeah. And it's those same folks who are the ones who care about the document being written, not the process and the learning happening. And I think that's deeply frustrating to me as—Corey: All the plans, of course, assume that people will prioritize the company over their own family for certain kinds of disasters. I love that, too. It's divorced from reality; that's ridiculous, on some level. Speaking of ridiculous things, as you continue to grow and scale, I imagine you integrate with things beyond just Slack. You grab other data sources and over in the fullness of time.For example, I imagine one of your most popular requests from some of your larger customers is to integrate with their HR system in order to figure out who's the last engineer who left, therefore everything immediately their fault because lord knows the best practice is to pillory whoever was the last left because then they're not there to defend themselves anymore and no one's going to get dinged for that irresponsible jackass's decisions, even if they never touched the system at all. I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but only slightly.Chris: Yeah. I think [laugh] that's an interesting point. I am definitely going to raise that feature request for a prefilled root cause category, which is, you know, the value is just that last person who left the organization. That it's a wonderful scapegoat situation there. I like it.To the point around what we do integrate with, I think the thing is actually with incidents that's quite interesting is there is a lot of tooling that exists in this space that does little pockets of useful, valuable things in the shape of incidents. So, you have PagerDuty is this system that does a great job of making people's phone making noise, but that happens, and then you're dropped into this sort of empty void of nothingness and you've got to go and figure out what to do. And then you've got things like Jira where clearly you want to be able to track actions that are coming out of things going wrong in some cases, and that's a great tool for that. And various other things in the middle there. And yeah, our value proposition, if you want to call it that, is to bring those things together in a way that is massively ergonomic during an incident.So, when you're in the middle of an incident, it is really handy to be able to go, “Oh, I have shipped this horrible fix to this thing. It works, but I must remember to undo that.” And we put that at your fingertips in an incident channel from Slack, that you can just log that action, lose that cognitive load that would otherwise be there, move on with fixing the thing. And you have this sort of—I think it's, like, that multiplied by 1000 in incidents that is just what makes it feel delightful. And I cringe a little bit saying that because it's an incident at the end of the day, but genuinely, it feels magical when some things happen that are just like, “Oh, my gosh, you've automatically hooked into my GitHub thing and someone else merged that PR and you've posted that back into the channel for me so I know that that happens. That would otherwise have been a thing where I jump out of the incident to go and figure out what was happening.”Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friend EnterpriseDB. EnterpriseDB has been powering enterprise applications with PostgreSQL for 15 years. And now EnterpriseDB has you covered wherever you deploy PostgreSQL on-premises, private cloud, and they just announced a fully-managed service on AWS and Azure called BigAnimal, all one word. Don't leave managing your database to your cloud vendor because they're too busy launching another half-dozen managed databases to focus on any one of them that they didn't build themselves. Instead, work with the experts over at EnterpriseDB. They can save you time and money, they can even help you migrate legacy applications—including Oracle—to the cloud. To learn more, try BigAnimal for free. Go to biganimal.com/snark, and tell them Corey sent you.Corey: The problem with the cloud, too, is the first thing that, when there starts to be an incident happening is the number one decision—almost the number one decision point is this my shitty code, something we have just pushed in our stuff, or is it the underlying provider itself? Which is why the AWS status page being slow to update is so maddening. Because those are two completely different paths to go down and you are having to pursue both of them equally at the same time until one can be ruled out. And that is why time to identify at least what side of the universe it's on is so important. That has always been a bit of a tricky challenge.I want to talk a bit about circular dependencies. You target a certain persona of customer, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that one explicit company that you are not going to want to do business with in your current iteration is Slack itself because a tool to manage—okay, so our service is down, so we're going to go to Slack to fix it doesn't work when the service is Slack itself. So, that becomes a significant challenge. As you look at this across the board, are you seeing customers having problems where you have circular dependency issues with this? Easy example: Slack is built on top of AWS.When there's an underlying degradation of, huh, suddenly us-east-1 is not doing what it's supposed to be doing, now, Slack is degraded as well, as well as the customer site, it seems like at that point, you're sort of in a bit of tricky positioning as a customer. Counterpoint, when neither Slack nor your site are working, figuring out what caused that issue doesn't seem like it's the biggest stretch of the imagination at that point.Chris: I've spent a lot of my career working in infrastructure, platform-type teams, and I think you can end up tying yourself in knots if you try and over-optimize for, like, avoiding these dependencies. I think it's one of those, sort of, turtles all the way down situations. So yes, Slack are unlikely to become a customer because they are clearly going to want to use our product when they are down.Corey: They reach out, “We'd like to be your customer.” Your response is, “Please don't be.” None of us are going to be happy with this outcome.Chris: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing that is that we're friends with some folks at Slack, and they believe it or not, they do use Slack to navigate their incidents. They have an internal tool that they have written. And I think this sort of speaks to the point we made earlier, which is that incidents and things failing or not these sort of big binary events. And so—Corey: All of Slack is down is not the only kind of incident that a company like Slack can experience.Chris: I'd go as far as that it's most commonly not that. It's most commonly that you're navigating incidents where it is a degradation, or some edge case, or something else that's happened. And so, like, the pragmatic solution here is not to avoid the circular dependencies, in my view; it's to accept that they exist and make sure you have sensible escape hatches so that when something does go wrong—so a good example, we use incident.io at incident.io to manage incidents that we're having with incident.io. And 99% of the time, that is absolutely fine because we are having some error in some corner of the product or a particular customer is doing something that is a bit curious.And I could count literally on one hand the number of times that we have not been able to use our products to fix our product. And in those cases, we have a fallback which is jump into—Corey: I assume you put a little thought into what happened. “Well, what if our product is down?” “Oh well, I guess we'll never be able to fix it or communicate about it.” It seems like that's the sort of thing that, given what you do, you might have put more than ten seconds of thought into.Chris: We've put a fair amount of thought into it. But at the end of the day, [laugh] it's like if stuff is down, like, what do you need to do? You need to communicate with people. So, jump on a Google Chat, jump on a Slack huddle, whatever else it is we have various different, like, fallbacks in different order. And at the core of it, I think this is the thing is, like, you cannot be prepared for every single thing going wrong, and so what you can be prepared for is to be unprepared and just accept that humans are incredibly good at being resilient, and therefore, all manner of things are going to happen that you've never seen before and I guarantee you will figure them out and fix them, basically.But yeah, I say this; if my SOC 2 auditor is listening, we also do have a very well-defined, like, backup plan in our SOC 2 [laugh] in our policies and processes that is the thing that we will follow that. But yeah.Corey: The fact that you're saying the magic words of SOC 2, yes, exactly. Being in a responsible adult and living up to some baseline compliance obligations is really the sign of a company that's put a little thought into these things. So, as I pull up incident.io—the website, not the company to be clear—and look through what you've written and how you talk about what you're doing, you've avoided what I would almost certainly have not because your tagline front and center on your landing page is, “Manage incidents at scale without leaving Slack.” If someone were to reach out and say, well, we're down all the time, but we're using Microsoft Teams, so I don't know that we can use you, like, the immediate instinctive response that I would have for that to the point where I would put it in the copy is, “Okay, this piece of advice is free. I would posit that you're down all the time because you're the kind of company to use Microsoft Teams.” But that doesn't tend to win a whole lot of friends in various places. In a slightly less sarcastic bent, do you see people reaching out with, “Well, we want to use you because we love what you're doing, but we don't use Slack.”Chris: Yeah. We do. A lot of folks actually. And we will support Teams one day, I think. There is nothing especially unique about the product that means that we are tied to Slack.It is a great way to distribute our product and it sort of aligns with the companies that think in the way that we do in the general case but, like, at the core of what we're building, it's a platform that augments a communication platform to make it much easier to deal with a high-stress, high-pressure situation. And so, in the future, we will support ways for you to connect Microsoft Teams or if Zoom sought out getting rich app experiences, talk on a Zoom and be able to do various things like logging actions and communicating with other systems and things like that. But yeah, for the time being very, very deliberate focus mechanism for us. We're a small company with, like, 30 people now, and so yeah, focusing on that sort of very slim vertical is working well for us.Corey: And it certainly seems to be working to your benefit. Every person I've talked to who is encountered you folks has nothing but good things to say. We have a bunch of folks in common listed on the wall of logos, the social proof eye chart thing of here's people who are using us. And these are serious companies. I mean, your last job before starting incident.io was at Monzo, as you mentioned.You know what you're doing in a regulated, serious sense. I would be, quite honestly, extraordinarily skeptical if your background were significantly different from this because, “Well, yeah, we worked at Twitter for Pets in our three-person SRE team, we can tell you exactly how to go ahead and handle your incidents.” Yeah, there's a certain level of operational maturity that I kind of just based upon the name of the company there; don't think that Twitter for Pets is going to nail. Monzo is a bank. Guess you know what you're talking about, given that you have not, basically, been shut down by an army of regulators. It really does breed an awful lot of confidence.But what's interesting to me is the number of people that we talk to in common are not themselves banks. Some are and they do very serious things, but others are not these highly regulated, command-and-control, top-down companies. You are nimble enough that you can get embedded at those startup-y of startup companies once they hit a certain point of scale and wind up helping them arrive at a better outcome. It's interesting in that you don't normally see a whole lot of tools that wind up being able to speak to both sides of that very broad spectrum—and most things in between—very effectively. But you've somehow managed to thread that needle. Good work.Chris: Thank you. Yeah. What else can I say other than thank you? I think, like, it's a deliberate product positioning that we've gone down to try and be able to support those different use cases. So, I think, at the core of it, we have always tried to maintain the incident.io should be installable and usable in your very first incident without you having to have a very steep learning curve, but there is depth behind it that allows you to support a much more sophisticated incident setup.So, like, I mean, you mentioned Monzo. Like, I just feel incredibly fortunate to have worked at that company. I joined back in 2017 when they were, I don't know, like, 150,000 customers and it was just getting its banking license. And I was there for four years and was able to then see it scale up to 6 million customers and all of the challenges and pain that goes along with that both from building infrastructure on the technical side of things, but from an organizational side of things. And was, like, front-row seat to being able to work with some incredibly smart people and sort of see all these various different pain points.And honestly, it feels a little bit like being in sort of a cheat mode where we get to this import a lot of that knowledge and pain that we felt at Monzo into the product. And that happens to resonate with a bunch of folks. So yeah, I feel like things are sort of coming out quite well at the moment for folks.Corey: The one thing I will say before we wind up calling this an episode is just how grateful I am that I don't have to think about things like this anymore. There's a reason that the problem that I chose to work on of expensive AWS bills being very much a business-hours only style of problem. We're a services company. We don't have production infrastructure that is externally facing. “Oh, no, one of our data analysis tools isn't working internally.”That's an interesting curiosity, but it's not an emergency in the same way that, “Oh, we're an ad network and people are looking at ads right now because we're broken,” is. So, I am grateful that I don't have to think about these things anymore. And also a little wistful because there's so much that you do it would have made dealing with expensive and dangerous outages back in my production years a lot nicer.Chris: Yep. I think that's what a lot of folks are telling us essentially. There's this curious thing with, like, this product didn't exist however many years ago and I think it's sort of been quite emergent in a lot of companies that, you know, as sort of things have moved on, that something needs to exist in this little pocket of space, dealing with incidents in modern companies. So, I'm very pleased that what we're able to build here is sort of working and filling that for folks.Corey: Yeah. I really want to thank you for taking so much time to go through the ethos of what you do, why you do it, and how you do it. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go? Ideally, not during an incident.Chris: Not during an incident, obviously. Handily, the website is the company name. So, incident.io is a great place to go and find out more. We've literally—literally just today, actually—launched our Practical Guide to Incident Management, which is, like, a really full piece of content which, hopefully, will be useful to a bunch of different folks.Corey: Excellent. We will, of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:29:52]. I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time. Really appreciate it.Chris: Thanks so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.Corey: Chris Evans, Chief Product Officer and co-founder of incident.io. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this episode, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment telling me why your latest incident is all the intern's fault.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.