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In this Write Big session of the #amwriting podcast, host Jennie Nash welcomes Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Jennifer Senior for a powerful conversation about finding, knowing, and claiming your voice.Jennifer shares how a medication once stripped away her ability to think in metaphor—the very heart of her writing—and what it was like to get that voice back. She and Jennie talk about how voice strengthens over time, why confidence and ruthless editing matter, and what it feels like when you're truly writing in flow.It's an inspiring reminder that your voice is your greatest strength—and worth honoring every time you sit down to write.TRANSCRIPT BELOW!THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST:* Jennifer's Fresh Air interview with Terry Gross: Can't Sleep? You're Not Alone* Atlantic feature story: What Bobby McIlvaine Left Behind* Atlantic feature story: The Ones We Sent Away* Atlantic feature story: It's Your Friends Who Break Your Heart* The New York Times article: Happiness Won't Save You* Heavyweight the podcastSPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it's Jennie Nash. And at Author Accelerator, we believe that the skills required to become a great book coach and build a successful book coaching business can be taught to people who come from all kinds of backgrounds and who bring all kinds of experiences to the work. But we also know that there are certain core characteristics that our most successful book coaches share. If you've been curious about becoming a book coach, and 2026 might be the year for you, come take our quiz to see how many of those core characteristics you have. You can find it at bookcoaches.com/characteristics-quiz.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHi, I'm Jennie Nash, and you're listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I'm bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. This one might not actually be that short, because today I'm talking to journalist Jennifer Senior about the idea of finding and knowing and claiming your voice—a rather big part of writing big. Jennifer Senior is a staff writer at The Atlantic. She won the Pulitzer Prize for feature writing in 2022 and was a finalist again in 2024. Before that, she spent five years at The New York Times as both a daily book critic and a columnist for the opinion page, and nearly two decades at New York Magazine. She's also the author of a bestselling parenting book, and frequently appears on NPR and other news shows. Welcome, Jennifer. Thanks for joining us.Jennifer SeniorThank you for having me. Hey, I got to clarify just one thing.Jennie NashOh, no.Jennifer SeniorAll Joy and No Fun is by no means a parenting book. I can't tell you the first thing about how to raise your kids. It is all about how kids change their parents. It's all like a sociological look at who we become and why we are—so our lives become so vexed. I like, I would do these book talks, and at the end, everybody would raise their hand and be like, “How do I get my kid into Harvard?” You know, like, the equivalent obviously—they wouldn't say it that way. I'd be like; I don't really have any idea, or how to get your kid to eat vegetables, or how to get your kid to, like, stop talking back. But anyway, I just have to clarify that, because every time...Jennie NashPlease, please—Jennifer SeniorSomeone says that, I'm like, “Noooo.” Anyway, it's a sociology book. Ah, it's an ethnography, you know. But anyway, it doesn't matter.Jennie NashAll right, like she said, you guys—not what I said.Jennifer SeniorI'm not correcting you. It came out 11 years ago. There were no iPads then, or social media. I mean, forget it. It's so dated anyway. But like, I just...Jennie NashThat's so funny. So the reason that we're speaking is that I heard you recently on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, where you were talking about an Atlantic feature story that you wrote called “Why Can't Americans Sleep?” And this was obviously a reported piece, but also a really personal piece and you're talking about your futile attempts to fall asleep and the latest research into insomnia and medication and therapy that you used to treat it, and we'll link to that article and interview in the show notes. But the reason that we're talking, and that in the middle of this conversation, which—which I'm listening to and I'm riveted by—you made this comment, and it was a little bit of a throwaway comment in the conversation, and, you know, then the conversation moved on. But you talked about how you were taking a particular antidepressant you'd been prescribed, and this was the quote you said: “It blew out all the circuitry that was responsible for generating metaphors, which is what I do as a writer. So it made my writing really flat.” And I was just like, hold up. What was that like? What happened? What—everything? So that's why we're talking. So… can we go back to the very beginning? If you can remember—Jess Lahey actually told me that when she was teaching fifth and sixth grade, that's around the time that kids begin to grasp this idea of figurative language and metaphor and such. Do you remember learning how to write like that, like write in metaphor and simile and all such things?Jennifer SeniorOh, that's funny. Do I remember it? I remember them starting to sort of come unbidden in my—like they would come unbidden in my head starting maybe in my—the minute I entered college, or maybe in my teens. Actually, I had that thing where some people have this—people who become writers have, like, a narrator's voice in their head where they're actually looking at things and describing them in the third person. They're writing them as they witness the world. That went away, that narrator's voice, which I also find sort of fascinating. But, like, I would say that it sort of emerged concurrently. I guess I was scribbling a little bit of, like, short story stuff, or I tried at least one when I was a senior in high school. So that was the first time maybe that, like, I started realizing that I had a flair for it. I also—once I noticed that, I know in college I would make, you know, when I started writing for the alternative weekly and I was reviewing things, particularly theater, I would make a conscientious effort to come up with good metaphors, and, like, 50% of them worked and 50% of them didn't, because if you ever labor over a metaphor, there's a much lower chance of it working. I mean, if you come—if you revisit it and go, oh, that's not—you know, that you can tell if it's too precious. But now if I labor over a metaphor, I don't bother. I stop. You know, it has to come instantaneously or...Jennie NashOr that reminds me of people who write with the thesaurus open, like that's going to be good, right? That's not going to work. So I want to stick with this, you know, so that they come into your head, you recognize that, and just this idea of knowing, back in the day, that you could write like that—you… this was a thing you had, like you used the word “flair,” like had a flair for this. Were there other signs or things that led you to the work, like knowing you were good, or knowing when something was on the page that it was right, like, what—what is that?Jennifer SeniorIt's that feeling of exhilaration, but it's also that feeling of total bewilderment, like you've been struck by something—something just blew through you and you had nothing to do with it. I mean, it's the cliché: here I am saying the metaphors are my superpower, which my editors were telling me, and I'm about to use a cliché, which is that you feel like you're a conduit for something and you have absolutely nothing to do with it. So I would have that sense that it had almost come without conscious thought. That was sort of when I knew it was working. It's also part of being in a flow state. It's when you're losing track of time and you're just in it. And the metaphors are—yeah, they're effortless. By the way, my brain is not entirely fogged in from long COVID, but I have noticed—and at first I didn't really notice any decrements in cognition—but recently, I have. So I'm wondering now if I'm having problems with spontaneous metaphor generation. It's a little bit disconcerting. And I do feel like all SSRIs—and I'm taking one now, just because, not just because long COVID is depressing, but because I have POTS, which is like a—it's Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, and that's a very common sequela from long COVID, and it wipes out your plasma serotonin. So we have to take one anyway, we POTS patients. So I found that nicotine often helped with my long COVID, which is a thing—like a nicotine patch—and that made up for it. It almost felt like I was doping [laughing]. It made my writing so much better. But it's been...Jennie NashWait, wait, wait, this is so interesting.Jennifer SeniorI know…it's really weird. I would never have guessed that so much of my writing would be dampened by Big Pharma. I mean—but now with the nicotine patches, I was like, oh, now I get why writers are smoking until into the night, writing. Like, I mean, and I always wished that I did, just because it looked cool, you know? I could have just been one of those people with their Gitanes, or however you pronounce it, but, yeah.Jennie NashWow. So I want to come—I want to circle back to this in a minute, but let's get to the first time—well, it sounds like the first time that happened where you were prescribed an antidepressant and—and you recognized that you lost the ability to write in metaphor. Can you talk about—well, first of all, can you tell us what the medication was?Jennifer SeniorYeah, it was Paxil, which is actually notorious for that. And at the top—which I only subsequently discovered—those were in the days where there were no such things as Reddit threads or anything like that. It was 1999… I guess, no, eight, but so really early. That was the bespoke antidepressant at the time, thought to be more nuanced. I think it's now fallen out of favor, because it's also a b***h to wean off of. But it was kind of awful, just—I would think, and nothing would come. It was the strangest thing. For—there's all this static electricity usually when you write, right? And there's a lot of free associating that goes on that, again, feels a little involuntary. You know, you start thinking—it's like you've pulled back the spring in the pinball machine, and suddenly the thing is just bouncing around everywhere, and the ball wasn't bouncing around. Nothing was lighting up. It was like a dis… it just was strange, to be able to summon nothing.Jennie NashWow. So you—you just used this killer metaphor to describe that.Jennifer SeniorYeah, that was spontaneous.Jennie NashRight? So—so you said first, you said static, static energy, which—which is interesting.Jennifer SeniorYeah, it's... [buzzing sound]Jennie NashYeah. Yeah. Because it's noisy. You're talking about...Jennie SeniorOh, but it's not disruptive noise. Sorry, that might seem like it's like unwanted crackling, like on your television. I didn't really—yeah, maybe that's the wrong metaphor, actually, maybe the pinball is sort of better, that all you need is to, you know, psych yourself up, sit down, have your caffeine, and then bam, you know? But I didn't mean static in that way.Jennie NashI understood what you meant. There's like a buzzy energy.Jennifer SeniorYeah, right. It's fizz.Jennie NashFizz... that's so good. So you—you recognized that this was gone.Jennifer SeniorSo gone! Like the TV was off, you know?Jennie NashAnd did you...?Jennifer SeniorOr the machine, you know, was unplugged? I mean, it's—Jennie NashYeah, and did you? I'm just so curious about the part of your brain that was watching another part of your brain.Jennifer Senior[Laughing] You know what? I think... oh, that's really interesting. But are you watching, or are you just despairing because there's nothing—I mean, I'm trying to think if that's the right...Jennie NashBut there's a part of your brain that's like, this part of my brain isn't working.Jennifer SeniorRight. I'm just thinking how much metacognition is involved in— I mean, if you forget a word, are you really, like, staring at that very hard, or are you just like, s**t, what's the word? If you're staring at Jack Nicholson on TV, and you're like, why can't I remember that dude's name?Multiple speakers[Both laughing]Jennifer SeniorWhich happens to me far more regularly now, [unintelligible]… than it used to, you know? I mean, I don't know. There is a part of you that's completely alarmed, but, like, I guess you're right. There did come a point where I—you're right, where I suddenly realized, oh, there's just been a total breakdown here. It's never happening. Like, what is going on? Also, you know what would happen? Every sentence was a grind, like...Jennie NashOkay, so—okay, so...Jennifer Senior[Unintelligible]... Why is this so effortful? When you can't hold the previous sentence in your head, suddenly there's been this lapse in voice, right? Because, like, if every sentence is an effort and you're starting from nothing again, there's no continuity in how you sound. So, I mean, it was really dreadful. And by the way, if I can just say one thing, sorry now that—Jennie NashNo, I love it!Jennifer SeniorYeah. Sorry. I'm just—now you really got me going. I'm just like, yeah, I know. I'm sort of on a tear and a partial rant, which is Prozac—there came a point where, like, every single SSRI was too activating for me to sleep. But it was, of course, a problem, because being sleepless makes you depressed, so you need something to get at your depression. And SNRIs, like the Effexor's and the Cymbalta's, are out of the question, because those are known to be activating. So I kept vainly searching for SSRIs, and Prozac was the only one that didn't—that wound up not being terribly activating, besides Paxil, but it, too, was somewhat deadening, and I wrote my whole book on it.Jennie NashWow!Jennifer SeniorIt's not all metaphor.Multiple Speakers[both laughing]Jennifer SeniorIt's not all me and no—nothing memorable, you know? I mean, it's—it's kind of a problem. It was—I can't really bear to go back and look at it.Jennie NashWow.Jennie NashSo—so the feeling...Jennifer SeniorI'm really giving my book the hard sell, like it's really a B plus in terms of its pro…—I mean, you know, it wasn't.Jennie NashSo you—you—you recognize its happening, and what you recognize is a lack of fizzy, buzzy energy and a lack of flow. So I just have to ask now, presumably—well, there's long COVID now, but when you don't have—when you're writing in your full powers, do you—is it always in a state of flow? Like, if you're not in a state of flow, do you get up and go do something else? Like, what—how does that function in the life of a writer on a deadline?Jennifer SeniorOK. Well, am I always in a state of flow? No! I mean, flow is not—I don't know anyone who's good at something who just immediately can be in flow every time.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorIt's still magic when it happens. You know, when I was in flow almost out of the gate every day—the McIlvaine stories—like, I knew when I hit send, this thing is damn good. I knew when I hit send on a piece that was not as well read, but is like my second or third favorite story. I wrote something for The New York Times called “Happiness Wont Save You,” about a pioneer in—he wrote one of the foundational studies in positive psychology about lottery winners and paraplegics, and how lottery winners are pretty much no happier than random controls found in a phone book, and paraplegics are much less unhappy than you might think, compared to controls. It was really poorly designed. It would never withstand the scrutiny of peer review today. But anyway, this guy was, like, a very innovative thinker. His name was Philip Brickman, and in 1982 at 38 years old, he climbed—he got—went—he found his way to the roof of the tallest building in Ann Arbor and jumped, and took his own life. And I was in flow pretty much throughout writing that one too.Jennie NashWow. So the piece you're referring to, that you referred to previous to that, is What Bobby McIlvaine Left Behind, which was a feature story in The Atlantic. It's the one you won the—Pul…Pulitzer for? It's now made into a book. It has, like...Jennifer SeniorAlthough all it is like, you know, the story between...Jennie NashCovers, right?Jennifer SeniorYeah. Yeah. Because—yeah, yeah.Jennie NashBut—Jennifer SeniorWhich is great, because then people can have it, rather than look at it online, which—and it goes on forever—so yeah.Jennie NashSo this is a piece—the subtitle is Grief, Conspiracy Theories, and One Family's Search for Meaning in the Two Decades Since 9/11—and I actually pulled a couple of metaphors from that piece, because I re-read it knowing I was going to speak to you… and I mean, it was just so beautifully written. It's—it's so beautifully structured, everything, everything. But here's a couple of examples for our listeners. You're describing Bobby, who was a 26-year-old who died in 9/11, who was your brother's college roommate.Jennifer SeniorAnd at that young adult—they—you can't afford New York. They were living together for eight years. It was four in college, and four—Jennie NashWow.Jennifer SeniorIn New York City. They had a two-bedroom... yeah, in a cheaper part... well, to the extent that there are cheaper parts in...Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorThe way over near York Avenue, east side, yeah.Jennie NashSo you write, “When he smiled, it looked for all the world like he'd swallowed the moon.” And you wrote, “But for all Bobby's hunger and swagger, what he mainly exuded, even during his college years, was warmth, decency, a corkscrew quirkiness.” So just that kind of language—a corkscrew quirkiness, like he'd swallowed the moon—that, it's that the piece is full of that. So that's interesting, that you felt in flow with this other piece you described and this one. So how would you describe—so you describe metaphors as things that just come—it just—it just happens. You're not forcing it—you can't force it. Do you think that's true of whatever this ineffable thing of voice—voices—as well?Jennifer SeniorOh, that's a good question. My voice got more distinct as I got older—it gets better. I think a lot of people's—writers'—powers wax. Philip Roth is a great example of that. Colette? I mean, there are people whose powers really get better and better, and I've gotten better with more experience. But do you start with the voice? I think you do. I don't know if you can teach someone a voice.Jennie NashSo when you say you've gotten better, what does that mean to you?Jennifer SeniorYeah. Um, I'm trying to think, like, do I write with more swing? Do I—just with more confidence because I'm older? Being a columnist…which is the least creative medium…Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSeven hundred and fifty words to fit onto—I had a dedicated space in print. When David Leonhardt left, I took over the Monday spot, during COVID. So it's really, really—but what it forces you to do is to be very—your writing becomes lean, and it becomes—and structure is everything. So this does not relate to voice, but my—I was always pretty good at structure anyway. I think if you—I think movies and radio, podcasts, are, like, great for structure. Storytelling podcasts are the best thing to—I think I unconsciously emulate them. The McIlvaine story has a three-act structure. There's also—I think the podcast Heavyweight is sublime in that way.Jennie NashIs that Roxane Gay?Jennifer SeniorNo, no, no, no.Jennie NashOh, it's, um—Jennifer SeniorIt's Jonathan Goldstein.Jennie NashYes, got it. I'm going to write that down and link to that in our show notes.Jennifer SeniorIt's... I'm trying to think of—because, you know, his is, like, narratives, and it's—it's got a very unusual premise. But voice, voice, voice—well, I, you know, I worked on making my metaphors better in the beginning. I worked on noticing things, you know, and I worked on—I have the—I'm the least visual person alive. I mean, this is what's so interesting. Like, I failed to notice once that I had sat for an hour and a half with a woman who was missing an arm. I mean, I came back to the office and was talking—this is Barbara Epstein, who was a storied editor of The New York Review of Books, the story editor, along with Bob Silver. And I was talking to Mike Tomasky, who was our, like, city politic editor at the time. And I said to him, I just had this one—I knew she knew her. And he said, was it awkward? Was—you know, with her having one arm and everything? And I just stared at him and went one arm? I—I am really oblivious to stuff. And yet visual metaphors are no problem with me. Riddle me that, Batman. I don't know why that is. But I can, like, summon them in my head, and so I worked at it for a while, when my editors were responsive to it. Now they come more easily, so that seems to maybe just be a facility. I started noticing them in other people's writing. So Michael Ondaatje —in, I think it was In the Skin of a Lion, but maybe it was The English Patient. I've read, like, every book of his, like I've, you know— Running… was it Running in the Family? Running with the Family? I think it was Running in the—his memoir. And, I mean, doesn't—everything. Anil's Ghost—he— you know, that was it The Ballad of Billy the Kid? [The Collected Works of Billy the Kid] Anyway, I can go on and on. He had one metaphor talking about the evening being as serene as ink. And it was then that I realized that metaphors without effort often—and—or is that a simile? That's a simile.Jennie NashLike—or if it's “like” or “as,” it's a simile.Jennifer SeniorYeah. So I'm pretty good with similes, maybe more than metaphors. But... serene as ink. I realized that what made that work is that ink is one syllable. There is something about landing on a word with one syllable that sounds like you did not work particularly hard at it. You just look at it and keep going. And I know that I made a real effort to make my metaphors do that for a while, and I still do sometimes. Anything more than that can seem labored.Jennie NashOh, but that's so interesting. So you—you noticed in other people what worked and what you liked, and then tried to fold that into your own work.Jennifer SeniorYeah.Jennie NashSo does that mean you might noodle on—like, you have the structure of the metaphor or simile, but you might noodle on the word—Jennifer SeniorThe final word?Jennie NashThe final word.Jennifer SeniorYeah. Yeah, the actual simile, or whatever—yeah, I guess it's a simile—yeah, sometimes. Sometimes they—like I said, they come unbidden. I think I have enough experience now—which may make my voice better—to know what's crap. And I also, by the way, I'll tell you what makes your voice better: just being very willing to hit Select Alt, Delete. You know, there's more where that came from. I am a monster of self-editing. I just—I have no problem doing it. I like to do it. I like to be told when things are s**t. I think that improves your voice, because you can see it on the page.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorAnd also, I think paying attention to other people's writing, you know, I did more and more of that, you know, reverse engineering stuff, looking at how they did stuff as I got older, so...Jennie NashSo I was going to ask a question, which now maybe you already answered, but the question was going to be… you said that you're—you feel like you're getting better as a writer as you got older. And you—you said that was due to experience. And I was going to ask, is it, or is it due to getting older? You know, is there something about literally living more years that makes you better, or, you know, like, is wisdom something that you just get, or is it something you work for? But I think what I'm hearing is you're saying you have worked to become the kind of writer who knows, you know, what you just said—you delete stuff, it comes again. But tell me if—you know, you welcome the kind of tough feedback, because you know that makes you better. You know, this sort of real effort to become better, it sounds like that's a practice you have. Is that—is that right?Jennifer SeniorOh yeah. I mean, well, let's do two things on that, please. I so easily lose my juju these days that, like, you've got to—if you can put a, you know, oh God, I'm going to use a cliché again—if you can put a pin in or bookmark that, the observation about, you know, harsh feedback. I want to come back to that. But yes, one of the things that I was going to keep—when I said that I have the confidence now, I also was going to say that I have the wisdom, but I had too many kind of competing—Jennie NashYeah. Yeah.Jennifer SeniorYou know, were running at once, and I, you know, many trains on many tracks—Jennie NashYeah, yeah.Jennifer Senior…about to leave, so…, Like, I had to sort of hop on one. But, like, the—the confidence and wisdom, yes, and also, like, I'll tell you something: in the McIlvaine piece, it may have been the first time I did, like, a narrative nonfiction. I told a story. There was a time when I would have hid behind research on that one.Jennie NashOoh, and did you tell a story. It was the—I remember reading that piece when it first came out, and there you're introducing, you know, this—the situation. And then there's a moment, and it comes very quickly at the top of the piece, where you explain your relationship to the protagonist of the story. And there's a—there's just a moment of like, oh, we're—we're really in something different here. There's really—is that feel of, this is not a reported story, this is a lived story, and that there's so many layers of power, I mean, to the story itself, but obviously the way that you—you present it, so I know exactly what you're talking about.Jennifer SeniorYeah, and by the way, I think writing in the first person, which I've been doing a lot of lately, is not something I would have done until now. Probably because I am older and I feel like I've earned it. I have more to say. I've been through more stuff. It's not, like, with the same kind of narcissism or adolescent—like, I want to get this out, you know. It's more searching, I think, and because I've seen more, and also because I've had these pent up stories that I've wanted to tell for a long time. And also I just don't think I would have had the balls, you know.Jennie NashRight.Jennifer SeniorSo some of it is—and I think that that's part of—you can write better in your own voice. If it's you writing about you, you're—there's no better authority, you know? So your voice comes out.Jennie NashRight.Jennifer SeniorBut I'm trying to think of also—I would have hid behind research and talked about theories of grief. And when I wrote, “It's the damnedest thing, the dead abandon you, and then you abandon the dead,” I had blurted that out loud when I was talking to, actually, not Bobby's brother, which is the context in which I wrote it, but to Bobby's—I said that, it's, like, right there on the tape—to his former almost fiancée. And I was thinking about that line, that I let it stand. I didn't actually then rush off and see if there was a body of literature that talked about the guilt that the living feel about letting go of their memories. But I would have done that at one point. I would have turned it into this... because I was too afraid to just let my own observations stand. But you get older and you're like, you know what? I'm smart enough to just let that be mine. Like, assume...Jennie NashRight.Jennifer SeniorIt's got to be right. But can we go back, also, before I forget?Jennie NashYeah, we're going to go back to harsh, but—but I would just want to use your cliché, put a pin in what you said, because you've said so many important things— that there's actual practice of getting better, and then there's also wisdom of—of just owning, growing into, embracing, which are two different things, both so important. So I just wanted to highlight that you've gone through those two things. So yes, let's go back to—I said harsh, and maybe I miss—can...misrepresenting what you meant.Jennifer SeniorYou may not have said that. I don't know what you said.Jennie NashNo, I did, I did.Jennifer SeniorYou did, okay, yeah, because I just know that it was processed as a harsh—oh no, totally. Like, I was going to say to you that—so there was a part of my book, my book, eventually, I just gave one chapter to each person in my life whom I thought could, like, assess it best, and one of them, so this friend—I did it on paper. He circled three paragraphs, and he wrote, and I quote, “Is this just a shitty way of saying...?” And then I was like, thank God someone caught it, if it was shitty. Oh my God. And then—and I was totally old enough to handle it, you know, I was like 44, whatever, 43. And then, who was it? Someone else—oh, I think I gave my husband the intro, and he wrote—he circled a paragraph and just wrote, “Ugh.” Okay, Select Alt, Delete, redo. You know, like, what are you going to do with that? That's so unambiguous. It's like, you know—and also, I mean, when you're younger, you argue. When you're older, you never quarrel with Ugh. Or Is this...Jennie NashRight, you're just like, okay, yep.Jennifer SeniorYeah. And again, you—you've done it enough that, you know, there's so much more where that came from.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorWhy cling to anything that someone just, I don't know, had this totally allergic reaction to? Like, you know, if my husband broke out in a hive.Jennie NashYeah. So, circling back to the—the storyline of—you took this medication, you lost your ability to write in this way, you changed medications, presumably, you got it back. What did it feel like to get it back? Did you—do you remember that?Jennifer SeniorOh God, yes, it was glorious.Jennie NashReally?!Jennifer SeniorOh, you don't feel like yourself. I think that—I mean, I think there are many professions that are intertwined with identity. They may be the more professional—I'm sorry, the more creative professions. But not always, you know. And so if your writing voice is gone, and it's—I mean, so much of writing is an expression of your interior, if not life, then, I don't know some kind of thought process and something that you're working out. To have that drained out of you, for someone to just decant all the life out of your—or something to decant all the life out of your writing, it's—it's, I wouldn't say it's traumatic, that's totally overstating it, but it's—it's a huge bummer. It's, you know, it's depressing.Jennie NashWell, the word glorious, that's so cool. So to feel that you got back your—the you-ness of your voice was—was glorious. I mean, that's—that's amazing.Jennifer SeniorWhat—if I can just say, I wrote a feature, right, that then, like, I remember coming off of it, and then I wrote a feature that won the News Women's Club of New York story for best feature that year. Like, I didn't realize that those are kind of hard to win, and not like I won... I think I've won one since. But, like, that was in, like, 99 or something. I mean, like, you know, I don't write a whole lot of things that win stuff, until recently, you know. There was, like, a real kind of blackout period where, you know, I mean, but like—which I think, it probably didn't have to do with the quality of my writing. I mean, there was—but, I mean, you know, I wasn't writing any of the stuff that floated to the tippy top, and, like, I think that there was some kind of explosion thereof, like, all the, again, stuff that was just desperate to come out. I think there was just this volcanic outpouring.Jennie NashSo you're saying now you are winning things, which is indeed true. I mean, Pulitzer Prizes among them. Do you think that that has to do with this getting better? The wisdom, the practice, the glorious having of your abilities? Or, I guess what I'm asking is, like, is luck a part of—a part of all that? Is it just, it just happens? Or do you think there's some reason that it's happening? You feel that your writing is that powerful now?Jennifer SeniorWell, luck is definitely a part of it, because The Atlantic is the greatest place to showcase your feature writing. It gets so much attention, even though I think fewer people probably read that piece about Bobby McIlvaine than would have read any of my columns on any given day. The kind of attention was just so different. And it makes sense in a funny way, because it was 13,600 words or something. I mean, it was so long, and columns are 750 words. But, like, I think that I just lucked out in terms of the showcase. So that's definitely a part of it. And The Atlantic has the machinery to, you know, and all these dedicated, wonderful publicity people who will make it possible for people to read it, blah, blah, blah. So there's that. If you're older, you know everyone in the business, so you have people amplifying your work, they're suddenly reading it and saying, hey, everybody read it. It was before Twitter turned to garbage. Media was still a way to amplify it. It's much harder now, so passing things along through social media has become a real problem. But at that moment, it was not—Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSo that was totally luck. Also, I wonder if it was because I was suddenly writing something from in the first person, and my voice was just better that way. And I wouldn't have had, like, the courage, you know?Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorAnd also, you're a book critic, which is what I was at The Times. And you certainly are not writing from the first person. And as a columnist, you're not either.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSo, you know, those are very kind of constricted forms, and they're also not—there are certainly critics who win Pulitzers. I don't think I was good enough at it. I was good, but it was not good enough. I could name off the top of my head, like, so many critics who were—who are—who haven't even won anything yet. Like Dwight Garner really deserves one. Why has he not won a Pulitzer? He's, I think, the best writer—him and Sophie Gilbert, who keeps coming close. I don't get it, like, what the hell?Jennie NashDo you—as a—as a reader of other people's work, I know you—you mentioned Michael Ondaatje that you'd studied—study him. But do you just recognize when somebody else is on their game? Like, do you recognize the voice or the gloriousness of somebody else's work? Can you just be like, yeah, that...?Jennifer SeniorWell, Philip Roth, sentence for sentence. Martin Amis, even more so—I cannot get over the originality of each of his sentences and the wide vocabulary from which he recruits his words, and, like, maybe some of that is just being English. I think they just get better, kind of more comprehensive. They read more comprehensively. And I always tell people, if they want to improve their voice, they should read the Victorians, like that [unintelligible]. His also facility with metaphor, I don't think, is without equal. The thing is, I can't stand his fiction. I just find it repellent. But his criticism is bangers and his memoirs are great, so I love them.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSo I really—I read him very attentively, trying to think of, like, other people whose kind of...Jennie NashI guess I was—I was getting at more... like, genius recognizes genius, that con... that concept, like, when you know you can do this and write in this way from time to time anyway, you can pull it off.Jennifer SeniorYeah, genius as in—I wouldn't—we can't go there.Jennie NashWell, that's the—that's the cliché, right? But, like...Jennifer SeniorOh no, I know, I know. Game—game, game recognizes game.Jennie NashGame recognizes game is a better way of saying it. Like, do you see—that's actually what the phrase is. I don't know where I came up with genius, but...Jennifer SeniorNo, it's fine. You can stick anything in that template, you know—evil recognizes evil, I mean, you know, it's like a...Jennie NashYeah. Do you see it? Do you see it? Like, you can see it in other people?Jennifer SeniorSure. Oh yeah, I see it.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorI mean, you're just talking about among my contemporaries, or just as it...Jennie NashJust like anything, like when you pick up a book or you read an article or even listen to a storytelling pack podcast, that sense of being in the hands of somebody who's on it.Jennifer SeniorYeah, I think that Jonathan Goldstein—I mean, I think that the—the Heavyweight Podcast, for sure, is something—and more than that, it's—it's storytelling structure, it's just that—I think that anybody who's a master at structure would just look at that show and be like, yeah, that show nails it each and every time.Jennie NashI've not listened, but I feel like I should end our time together. I would talk to you forever about this, but I always like to leave our listeners with something specific to reflect or practice or do. And is there anything related to metaphor or practicing, finding your voice, owning your voice, that you would suggest for—for folks? You've already suggested a lot.Jennifer SeniorRead the Victorians.Jennie NashAwesome. Any particular one that you would say start with?Jennifer SeniorYeah, you know what? I find Dickens rough sledding. I like his, you know, dear friend Wilkie Collins. I think No Name is one of the greatest books ever. I would read No Name.Jennie NashAmazing. And I will add, go read Jennifer's work. We'll link to a bunch of it in the show notes. Study her and—and watch what she does and learn what she does—that there it is, a master at work, and that's what I would suggest. So thank you for joining us and having this amazing discussion.Jennifer SeniorThis has been super fun.Jennie NashAnd for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this special episode, MSK patients, caregivers and clinicians share the miracles they’ve witnessed, even in the darkest of times. From life-saving medicine to gratitude for caregivers and a surprise romance, these stories remind us of the power of human connection. Episode Chapters:1:15 - A Marathon Bond5:09 - 2000 Miles Apart, United by a Breakthrough7:55 - Showing Up for the Little Things9:42 - Love After Loss, With Help from Two Angels13:10 - More Time, More Memories: Marley’s Gift14:57 - A Village for Ryan: MSK’s Creative Care19:39 - The Healing Touch: Cecilia’s Miracle22:13 - Cancer Hits Home for Dr. Reidy23:28 - The Gift of Meaning: Michael's "Revelation"See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

611 York Avenue - 2,500, 1,152 SF (built in 1966), from Leonard L. Clarke Jr. and Phyllis G. Clarke to David Bragg Sr. 135 Liberty Avenue - 9,500, 820 SF (built in 1997), from Altha S. Battle to Ibrahim and Tanya Giwa. 1413 Young Street - 2,500, 1,102 SF (built in 1939), from Charlene Roberta Longaker to Wen-Hao Van. 942 Taylor Green Drive - 7,630, 1,524 SF (built in 2023), from Godsey Properties Inc. to Chynna Holmes. 5922 Laurel Bed Lane, Unit A - 2,000, 1,507 SF (built in 2020), from Ian Joshua Clare to Satyavani Bommareddy. 2603 Jordan Court...Article LinkSupport the show

Sermon by Rabbi Ari Lorge, "Will the Messiah Get to York Avenue?" | Yom Kippur 5784

We are back with our auction ringer Lock Kresler to dissect all the stories behind the top lots coming up on the block this week in New York. We preview the sales on Park Avenue, York Avenue and in Rockefeller Center and let you know what to look for as over a billion dollars of art gets sold by the three main houses this week (not including the 1.5 billion sale of Paul Allen's collection last week). Whether you are bidding for yourself on the phone, on behalf of clients in the saleroom or just following along via the livestream at home you won't want to request a condition report until you've listened to this special broadcast. All that and more on the ONLY ART PODCAST! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/benjamin-godsill/support

This episode of “A look into the Crystal Ball on the Future of Digital,” features Sarah Houde, CEO of PROPULSION QUEBEC, Michael Hutchison, Partner Success Manager, Canada at VIA TRANSPORTATION INC., and Martijn Kentie, International Development Lead at BEWEGEN. They will define microtransit and Mobility as a Service (MaaS), explore the future of movement in cities and the consequent impact on businesses, as well as, offer a compare and contrast between Europe and the United States.PROPULSION QUEBEC: Propulsion Québec, the cluster for electric and smart transportation, catalyzes the entire sector around joint projects with the objective of positioning Quebec among the world leaders in developing and implementing smart and electric modes of ground transportation, for the benefit of Quebec's economy and environment.VIA TRANSPORTATION INC.: Defining and pioneering the TransitTech category is a journey nearly a decade in the making — beginning with a few vans at the intersection of 93rd and York Avenue in New York City. Today, Via is the world's most powerful digital infrastructure for public transportation. Via's software provides an end-to-end solution to plan, optimize, and operate efficient and equitable transit systems — unlocking opportunity for all, and building resilient cities for the future.BEWEGEN: Bewegen Technologies is a Quebec-based bike share solution provider. Our vision is to bring sustainability into the urban transportation mix by offering the ultimate shared transportation solution. Bewegen's pioneering electric assist technology is the missing link in urban mobility that has been revolutionizing perceptions of active transportation for the last years. The moment a user steps on our electric assist bike, they experience the Bewegen advantage as there are no controls or gears to learn, users simply pedal, and the technology activates with their movement. The Bewegen team is composed of shared mobility experts to offer the best experience to users and the best image to cities. We offer a 360-degree full-service that incorporates the development of hardware and software, full system operations, high quality client services and much more.

HOT91.9FM — The Reea Epilepsy Care Centre is an organisation that was established in 1938. Based in York Avenue in Craighall Park, the Centre cares for 40 residents of all ages. Hot Cares recently visited the home and were impressed with their various projects, but were also acutely aware that it was not enough to meet every need. Hot Cares team added new winter sheets and pillowcases for each resident as well as bath towels and some toiletries for their bathrooms.

On this month’s podcast, we take a close look at art auctions – how they work, their place in the art market and the rules and regulations that confine/define them.  Auctions at Sotheby’s and Christie’s now regularly net tens and sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars for a single work.  Christie’s recently sold Leonardo da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi painting for $450 million, by far the highest price ever garnered by a piece of art at auction.  At the same time, much about the auction process remains secret.  The identity of the buyer and seller is often known only to the auction house, and the reserve price (below which an artwork will not be sold) is known by the auctioneer but not the bidders.  While the auctioneer may not sell a work of art below its reserve price, it can bid on the work below the reserve to get the auction going.  Steve and Katie discuss these issues and others having to do with regulation, transparency and potential conflicts, and welcome famous Sotheby’s auctioneer Oliver Barker to take us behind the scenes of a big auction. Resources: http://www.sothebys.com/en/specialists/oliver-barker/bio.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/arts/design/as-art-market-rise-so-do-questions-of-oversight.html https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dca/downloads/pdf/about/auctioneer_law_rules.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/ceps/workingpapers/203ashenfelter.pdf https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/place_your_bids http://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2015/10/15/auction-psychology-emotions-behind-bidding/ https://mindhacks.com/2012/09/19/bbc-column-auction-psychology/ https://www.thecut.com/2016/12/inside-the-mind-of-a-million-dollar-art-bidder.html Episode Transcription Steve Schindler:  Hi, I’m Steve Schindler. Katie Wilson-Milne:  I’m Katie Wilson-Milne. Steve Schindler:  Welcome to the Art Law Podcast a monthly podcast exploring the places were art intersects with and interferes with the law. Katie Wilson-Milne:  And vice versa.   The art law podcast is sponsored by the law firm of Schindler Cohen & Hochman LLP, a premier ligation and art law boutique in New York City. Oliver Barker:  There was that element of, you know, great excitement coupled with complete fear in terms of – kind of the very live nature of that performance, and that’s something which has always appealed to me as an auctioneer.  You know, there’s a very live entertainment kind of perspective of that role. Steve Schindler:  Katie, I received some feedback on the podcast from listeners this weekend, and one of the comments that was made to me was with respect, particularly to the Berkshire Museum Deaccessioning episode, that this listener didn’t think that we were necessarily impartial enough or that we were taking sides.  And I thought about that a little bit and one of the things that I feel is that we're not journalist.  We're not pretending to be journalists and we have points of view, and I think we're going to express them.  What I think is also important, though, is where possible to have people aligned with different points of view, and we are very open to that.  So, I would say if somebody from Berkshire Museum who listened to our podcast, a representative or a member of the Board of Trustees, would like to come on and present their point of view in conversation with us – Katie Wilson-Milne:  We would love that. Steve Schindler:  We would love that.  And similarly with respect to the 5Pointz episode, we spent a lot of time with the artists and people involved in 5Pointz, but certainly if Mr. Wolkoff wants to come on and talk about what motivated him – Katie Wilson-Milne: To develop the site. Steve Schindler:  We're happy to have him on – and have the conversation.  We will still have the same view points that we have, but we certainly would like to engage with people who have other view points. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right and our goal with this podcast is to raise interesting issues that people may not have thought about in the way that we talk about them that connect the art world and the legal world.  But it’s not to provide a completely even handed news article about these topics, it’s to have an interesting discussion between -- mostly the two of us, and we are who we are and we think what we think what we think.  I think, actually, it may evolve over time depending on who we talk to, how we present certain issues.  We're also constrained by the guests who come on the show, and we want to be respectful of those guests by honoring their opinions and what they have to say. Steve Schindler:  So, if you want to come on the show – Katie Wilson-Milne:  Send us an e-mail. Steve Schindler:  Let us know. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, Steve on this month’s podcast, we're going to talk about auctions.  We have the May auctions coming up at the big houses - Christie’s, Sotheby’s and Phillips - both in New York and in other international locations, mainly London, in early May.  So, it’s a good time to talk about this.  Auctions tend to dominate the art world both in terms of the publicity they get, the prices that come out of auctions, and obviously they are public in a way that private sales are not.  So, it’s an exciting topic. Steve Schindler:  And we're going to be joined in our podcast by the Sotheby’s auctioneer Oliver Barker who is one of their top auctioneers in the area of contemporary art. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Yes, so he is going to give us an insider’s view on what it feels like to be in an auction, what an auction house like Sotheby’s does to prepare for a big auction and what he notices has changed over time in the auction world.  So, to back up and give our listeners a little bit of background the art market itself is said to be worth between $40 to $60 billion right now.  Auction sales from the main auction houses - which are Sotheby’s, Christie’s and Phillips - make up about $11 billion of that, that was the figure in 2017.  Only beat, I think, by the results in 2007, which were over $12 billion. So, it’s a big chunk of the overall art market takes place at art auctions in these three big houses.  The biggest group of auctions sales take place in the United States.  Although the auctions in London and in Hong Kong are also incredibly significant in terms of the profile works that are sold and the types of buyers that are there.  One thing that makes auctions interesting is how psychological the selling format is.  So unlike a private sale, where a dealer – whether its Sotheby’s or in a gallery or private dealer – will call a client or a contact and say, “look, I have this work for sale,” you know, “here's what the seller will take it for it.” At an auction you get the atmosphere of people bidding against each other, which seems to have great psychological effect, and there have been sales in the recent past that have taken off tremendously and sold for way more than anyone could have imagined.  The most famous example of that is the Salvator Mundi, Da Vinci sale at Christie’s that happened last November, where we had two buyers in the end bidding against each other.  And the work ultimately sold for around $450 million, which is far and away the most expensive work that's ever sold at auction ever, ever, ever.  Right, Steve? Steve Schindler:  Right and in that case you had two buyers who were bidding against each other who each thought that they were bidding against somebody else, as its been reported.  And so it drove the price up even higher than any one even contemplated. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Well, because of who those two bidders were. Steve Schindler:  Sure. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, the story is actually pretty interesting right.  We found out after the auction that the ultimately winner of the work was a Saudi prince, and he had been bidding against a friend, actually, from the United Arab Emirates who wanted the work for the new Louvre in Abu Dhabi.  They both thought they were bidding against someone from Qatar instead of each other.  When they found out that they weren’t and they bidding against each other, which is the only reason it went for $450 million, they apologized to each other and the Saudi prince said, “oh actually you can take the work for the new Louvre in Abu Dhabi in exchange for a yacht.”  So, it actually all worked out and the great anxiety about that sale, which is that this masterpiece would go into private hands, now resolved and hopefully it will be see at the Louvre Abu Dhabi. Steve Schindler:  I’m not sure what that whole transaction means for art or auctions, but it was amusing. Katie Wilson-Milne:  But it happened. Steve Schindler:  And – but from the point of view of a seller, you see these incredible bidding wars for certain kinds of objects, but the auctions can be a little bit terrifying for a seller, because you never know what the market is going on any given night.  You know at least if you're selling a work at a gallery you have a lot more control over the situation and you can wait until a buyer comes along with a price that you're asking. But in auction one possibility is that the bidding is good and strong and you get a very good price; the other possibility is that there isn’t any bidding that night for a variety of reasons. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right. Steve Schindler:  And the work is publicly not sold. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right, so unlike a private sale where something isn’t sold, well, you just wait and you sell it later.  But at auction if it doesn’t go well, that can really taint the marketability of the work. Steve Schindler:  And now the rules require that the auction houses announce that a work has not been sold.  Then, the word that's used for it sometimes is that the work is burned.  And then can't really be sold, at least not at auction, for some period of time. Katie Wilson-Milne:  I would totally take advantage of a burned work if I could -- Steve Schindler:  Well, of course and the auction houses then do try to sell the work privately afterwards and sometimes they know, because they know who the bidders are.  You know, what the interest is and then they are broker a sale immediately after the auction. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Just maybe not for as high a price as they could have before.  So, Steve we've talked a little bit on this podcast and certainly between ourselves about the level of or lack of regulation in the art market and sort of the increasing concerns over transparency, either in terms of money laundering or just transparency about the provenance of a work.  Auctions do function a little bit differently than private sales, right?  I mean there’s more transparency if not complete transparency. Steve Schindler:  Well, auction houses are much more regulated than private sales and -- Katie Wilson-Milne:  Which are not regulated at all. Steve Schindler:  Which are not regulated at all, and there is certainly a lot more transparency in an auction process.  I’m not sure that we can say that there’s 100% transparency.  But there are a lot of rules that the auction houses have to comply with, and they do comply with, that at least ensure a certain fairness and openness in the process. Katie Wilson-Milne:  But one of those things is not who the seller is often, right?  That's the one thing that's still not transparent -- Steve Schindler:  That's right and there was a case that ran all the way up to the court of appeals a few years ago. Katie Wilson-Milne:  In New York. Steve Schindler:  In New York, where we had a buyer at an auction who decided that he didn’t want to pay for the work after the fact and challenged the auction house rules on the theory that there needed to be a written disclosure of the identity of the buyer.  And actually that case went up to the highest court in New York and in the court below, much to the unhappiness of the entire auction industry, the court below actually found for the purchaser and invalidated the sale because there was no written record of who the seller was.  And the court of appeals decided to overturn that much to the relief of the auction industry. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Yeah, there have been efforts over time to require dealers to disclose the identity of the seller to the buyer, but those have not been successful, though.  The art world seems somewhat allergic to idea of disclosing who the owner of a work is. Steve Schindler:  There are really two big secrets now at an auction: one is, sometimes, who the owners are.  I mean, not at every auction.  Sometimes it's in fact a huge selling point. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Like the big Rockefeller sale coming up. Steve Schindler:  Right exactly, so the provenance of those works is incredibly important to the value, but sometimes collectors don’t want the world to know what they’re selling.  And so they insist that their identities be kept private and often those works are offered as the works of a private collector or European collector, an American collector.  And the other big secret at auction is this reserve price. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, what is the reserve price? Steve Schindler:  Well, the reserve price is the secret price that's agreed to between the seller, or the consigner of the work, and the auction house.  And it’s the price below which the work cannot be sold.  And what's not a secret and what has to be disclosed is the fact that there is a reserve, and that is clearly disclosed in all auction catalogues.  And typically in the major auction houses they disclose that all of the sales are with reserve unless they say otherwise. And the other thing that means is that, the way that the auction is conducted, is that the auctioneer is allowed to submit bids on behalf of the seller up to the secret reserve price. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Why would they do that? Steve Schindler:  Well, it’s really – some people have criticized the practice, the practice is sometimes called chandelier bidding on this idea that the auctioneer is sort of taking bids off the -- Katie Wilson-Milne:  The ceiling, yeah. Steve Schindler:  -- the chandelier in the ceiling, but really it’s just a question of creating some theater and drama, because up until the reserve price is hit, the work can never be sold.  So, even if the auctioneer is engaging in some bidding up to the reserve price, until you hit the reserve price, it really has no real impact, accept to sort of -- Katie Wilson-Milne:  Confuse everyone about what the reserve is. Steve Schindler:  -- or to warm up the room if you're taking it from the auctioneer’s perspective. Katie Wilson-Milne: So, how does the concept of a reserve interact with this other concept of a guaranty?  And what is a guaranty? Steve Schindler:  Well, a guaranty, which is often used now by major auction houses to entice collectors of works to consign the works to them, is basically a contract of promise by the auction house to pay a set amount of money to the consigner of the works regardless of what happens at the auction, and regardless of whether the reserve price is hit. Katie Wilson-Milne:  The seller knows 100% they are going to get at least that amount of money. Steve Schindler:  Right, sometimes that's important to a seller the thing that the seller normally gives up when they agree to take a guaranty, is some of the upside of the auction if the price goes above the guaranty and the reserve price. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, the auction house would split the profits above the guaranty. Steve Schindler:  Yeah and in some proportion and very often now the auction houses, if they are giving a guaranty will in a sense syndicate that risk to other parties who put up the money and are willing to make the guaranty. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, it’s a third party that – if the bidding didn’t go higher than the guaranty price they take the work. Steve Schindler:  They would take the work at whatever price they guaranteed it at – most of the individuals or institutions that give guaranties would prefer not to have the work.  What they are doing is making a financial bet that the work will sell at a price that is higher than the guaranty in which case they receive a return on their investment. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, Steve let’s talk to an auctioneer who actually works at these big night auctions and see what they have to say about how they work.  Our guest today is Oliver Barker.  Oliver is a senior director at Sotheby’s auction house and co-chairman of Sotheby’s Europe.  He is also one of the auction world foremost auctioneers.  So, he is both behind the scenes and in front of the camera at Sotheby’s, which he joined in 1994 moving through roles in contemporary art as a senior international specialist, among others. He has overseen some market-defining auction sales, including two major sales of Damien Hirst works, including one that set the world record for single artist sale.  He has a particular interest in post war British art, which he has promoted at Sotheby’s.  And he was the auctioneer at the May 2017 auction in which a Basquiat work sold for record-breaking $110.5 million. Steve Schindler:  Welcome to the podcast Oliver.  So, what kind of skills do you think a good auctioneer has? Oliver Barker:  Yes, well you know, in any given sort of auction, obviously the auctioneer’s role is to try and help proceed the kind of trading from the consigner to the purchaser.  So, the ability to remember, without slavishly looking down at kind of the auctioneer’s book, which is obviously there as a working tool during an auction, exactly what the estimate is for a particular work and also its protective reserve price, and therefore also it’s kind of opening bid, there’s a number of kind of key financial things in play. And, equally, there are so many means of bidding in this sort of modern day.  So, I suppose most traditionally, the easiest way to bid is actually in the room, whether it’s a private client or whether you choose to bid through an agent who’s sitting there executing bids on your behalf.  And there are also kind of the execution of bids via the telephone through a Sotheby’s representative.  There may also be commission bids, and the commission bids are always ones which are lodged in the auctioneer’s book. So, whilst starting off on a particular – you hear auctioneers say footing, the auctioneer’s footing — one has to be aware where the reserve price is, where a commission bid might be and more importantly where the commission bid ceiling is.  Whilst also kind of orchestrating multiple bids that might come in depending on what the level of interest is in a particular lot. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, we definitely want to ask you about the stages of an auction, so we’re going to get back to a lot of the items you just mentioned.  But maybe first we should ask you to explain to our audience how you decide what goes into an auction versus a private sale.  I mean, big houses like Sotheby’s and Christie’s do both, maybe there’s a movement towards more private sales now.  So, what is the determination of what goes up for auction and what doesn’t? Oliver Barker:  Well, I think it’s a really interesting question.  I think at the moment because the market is ostensibly very strong, and particularly in the area of contemporary art with which I’m most focused.  I think we have the luxury in contemporary, to a great extent actually, to curate the auctions that we’re handling. In other words, there are far greater more voluminous supplies of great objects of the Post-War period, which is how we loosely define Contemporary, then there might be say of old master, kind of masterpieces.  We use our global network and the conversations that we’re having with museum curators or dealers or gallerists or collectors to really have a insider’s knowledge, if you like, of who are the artists sort of being — sort of collected and who are in high esteem in a particular moment. But then also amongst those artists works, what are the key periods or what are the most rare objects?  And what are the ones that the market has seen a real hiatus of?  And quite quickly, you sort of figure out that, okay you have the real estate of a certain amount of exhibition space prior to an auction.  You have the real estate of a Sotheby’s catalogue, which is a major marketing tool that we use, but equally is one that takes a huge amount laborious work in preparing. One has the audience’s attention span, which generally doesn’t last beyond a certain amount of time and then also you have key experience.  So, we tend to have in an evening sale a context probably not more than about 75 lots.  That will probably be your maximum.  I mean, there’s no hard and fast rule.  But I think much beyond 75 lots you know, it’s hard to keep an audience’s attention and focus.  But at the same time you want to be able to curate a sale so that — there are lesser value things that which you know, are going to be short fast sellers. And you want also want pepper the ordering of the catalogue, which is also particularly critical, to introduce the high value lots at the commercially most optimum moments.  And I think at the end of the day also we’re getting very closely judged both by Wall Street and by the collector community in terms of how many unsold lots we’re handling.  I mean, I think it is fair to say that it’s a rarity to have sales which are 100% sold.  When putting a sale together one intends to try and sell everything as best one can, but market forces obviously and a variety different reasons may mean that things go unsold.  But there may well be through price expectation or physical condition issues, problems of some sort of conservation for example, that on the day the market turns its back.  So, we would like to have a fairly tightly trimmed unsold rate obviously of a percentage as low as possible. Steve Schindler:  Maybe talk us through sort of setting the stage of what it’s like, the atmosphere is like, at one of the big evening Contemporary art auctions that you preside over. Oliver Barker:  No, I mean the big auctions really are you know an amazing spectacle.  I think it’s fair to say that the evening sells are very much the summation of a very intensive three month period since the last set of auctions.  And in many cases, the fruition of many years of engagement with a particular collector, meaning that we have put together an auction of what we believe to be the finest works of art in that particular sale season. So, there’s a tremendous sense of anticipation from a number different perspectives whether it’s the vendors.  Whether it’s the market itself responding to the quality of the objects that we are offering, whether it’s the people within the room itself, in other words the people who attend, whether they be private collectors or consigners or potential purchasers.  From Sotheby’s perspective obviously, there are the management and the financial expectation of the sales and there maybe even be our shareholders or our board members or even Wall Street that are looking in as well. So, I think it’s fair to say that there’s quite a lot of eyes coming from many different disciplines, all of whom are very clearly focused on that start time of 7pm. when we kick off.  And being in a live business as we are, it’s very exciting that all of our presale marketing is conditioedl, obviously to that deadline and approaching that kick off point. So, that we have done our absolute utmost on behalf of the vendor to reach out to the world’s collectors and — you know, I think it’s interesting, in previewing the next major sale season, New York in May, where there are so many superlative objects that are coming to the market at the same time.  You will find that the orchestration of marketing these sales, and therefore how well the auction does, is really crucial in making sure that the world’s global collecting community is very, very focused on participating and being focused from New York at 7pm when we kick off that sale. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So, what do you do in the lead up to an auction?  What are the key things you do to drive up interest in the sales ahead of time? Oliver Barker:  Well, there are kind of three elements, I suppose, in terms of how we best raise interest and therefore the kind of the excitement around a particular object and particularly trying to get somebody to actually come participate in that and bid in an auction.  First of all, there’s the announcement of the sale itself, and actually normally that is the sale catalogue.  So, that’s the very first time that the market’s actually been able to have a very holistic view on all the objects that we’re going to be selling in that particular moment. Sometimes preceding that, sometimes following that, are a series of well-orchestrated marketing campaigns, which might include taking a particularly important object to Hong Kong, for example. I actually think a very good example is the announcement today, in fact, is  the wonderful Modigliani Nude of 1917, which was actually launched online in a live web cast on Sothebys.com but from Hong Kong.  With a very deliberate view that you know, the unlikely buyer for an object like that may very well come from that region of the world. But at the same time you know, that is an object which will now return to the New York to be viewed in the next couple of weeks in a presale exhibition you know, within our building on York Avenue, and that’s the other key part of the exhibition, of suddenly going into an auction.  You know, we have a – usually 10-day, or sometimes longer or sometimes a little bit shorter, preview before a particular sale, which enables collectors to come in and look at the pictures, but I think also most importantly to really do due diligence and talk to experts at Sotheby’s or take their own independent advice and come in with somebody who has some particular knowledge in an artist’s work.  Even seek the opinion of a third party conservator, you know somebody who’s able to come look at an object, take it off the wall.  I mean in the same way that you wouldn’t acquire a house without having a full structural serving on it, collectors do very much the same thing with paintings.  I mean, they like to come onboard and actually have a look at conservator’s reports and get a sense of is it in the original condition from which it left the artist studio?  Have there been some kind of repaintings?  Are there any loses anywhere?  And then obviously, you lead to the auction itself, and that might be proceeded by dinner parties or press releases as well. But as I mentioned a moment ago obviously the sale tends to kick off at a very particular time.  Nowadays also because our auctions are broadcast online, it’s even more important that we kick off in sort of a timely manner.  And we’ve had going on behind the scenes throughout the whole auction process a number of internal meetings at Sotheby’s, which are called interest meetings, which are designed to help orchestrate and choreograph, what are the levels of interest that the works of art that we’re selling are driving in the market place.  In other words has that first lot in the sale had the kind of feedback that we thought it might, because it’s such a rare object, and that it seems to carry comparatively conservative estimates?  So in other words, has it driven three or four people to look as if they’re making the signs they might decide to make a bid on the auction? Steve Schindler:  So, Ollie, when you start the bidding you already have a sense, I gather, of who is interested and what level of interest they have. Oliver Barker:  Right, I think it’s fair to say that you know, auctioneering is a very irrational process, it’s not a fixed price.  I think to a perspective purchaser of art who’s never bought at auction before, there is some level of discomfort.  I mean by comparison to walking into a gallery, where quite often there is a published price or you know it’s known what the end user price might be, and of course barring any room for negotiation, you’ve got a fairly clear idea what you are going to be likely paying for a certain transaction.  When you walk into an auction, obviously, there is absolutely no guaranty that the object is going to be acquirable at a particular level of price, because of course it just – it entirely depends on who ends up bidding against you.  Having said that, what we are trying to do is to make the irrational as a rational as we possibly can.  In other words we are using our experience to try and understand what the likely outcome out of a particular auction might be. Now, obviously we would love to supersede our expectation and know that on the night you know, something might double or sometimes triple or if we’ve done our jobs correctly and we know we’ve got a wonderful object and equally it’s being well marketed and it’s highly desirable in the marketplace and you have been able to drive great interest in that particular object, you might probably might find that something will take off and make a really superlative price that has no precedence in the market to date. Katie Wilson-Milne:  How often does that happen that there’s sort of a runaway bid, bidding on a work that just takes everyone by surprise? Oliver Barker:  Well, I mean, Katiem you know, I wish I could say on every single lot.  I mean, I think that buyers now are particularly savvy.  And I think you know, we would expect them to also be fully aware of and advised of what comparable objects make in the market place.  So, depending on what you’re selling you know, there may be one sale.  And we had a great example of something which did superlatively well last May when we sold a Basquiat painting for $110 million — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right. Oliver Barker: — it had an estimate somewhere in the region of just over $50 million, so that was a really great example of something which completely superseded what our presale expectations were. Steve Schindler:  And you were presiding over that auction, Ollie, as I remember. Oliver Barker:  Yeah, I had the great privilege of holding that auction. Steve Schindler:  How did that feel at the time? Oliver Barker:  It was terrifying.  I think that because I very much love the entertainment aspect of the auction, it was something, which seems to go very slowly.  Albeit I think time actually sometimes slows down actually when you’re dealing with such high figures.  And particularly when kind the freestyle excitement of two very determined bidders like that kind of really gets going. But it was a great privilege, it was tremendous work of art.  And I think also the signs in the presale activity have been that the market – this is the picture that market was really looking for.  I think you have the trilogy of a great object by a great artist, which is entirely fresh to market.  Really truly all those kind of the elements choreographed together to make a phenomenal price.  And I think in fairness to Sotheby’s also — I think we did a tremendous job in terms of marketing in that work and just making sure that on the night the two most likely bidders or end users ended up sort of fighting against each other and there was a real sort of gladiatorial kind of contest which went on between them. Katie Wilson-Milne:  It’s really interesting how much of the excitement I think of the auction actually happens before the auction, which you’ve talked about in terms of the press and the social media and the events.  And I wonder has that changed over time, in your experience? Oliver Barker:  You know, it’s really interesting to me that you know, well Sotheby’s is actually the – I think we’re the oldest company that’s listed on the American stock exchange.  We’re a company that was founded in 1744 in London by somebody who was a bookseller.  And I think the reason that we remain, or rather, auctioneering remains a really contemporary activity is that I still think it’s one of the most effective ways of selling works of art from one entity to another.  And I think you know, that we’re fortunate you know, being Sotheby’s — and Christie’s and Phillips could say very much the same thing — that we are deemed to be kind of very credible marketplaces for the sale of the greatest works of art and the thing that we particularly handle.  Having said that, I think that you know, particularly with the new opportunities afforded by the internet and social media etc., I think the abilities to market what we’re selling have grown massively within the last two years. And continue to kind of change all the time.  And I think that we as a business are very much at the forefront in terms of kind of trying to get technical innovation, very much front and center in terms of how we get objects sort of into the minds of the prospective purchasers out there. I think it’s fair to say at that actually auctioneering in a way remains a very, you know — it’s quite an old school form of actually selling something.  You know you have a finite amount of time to sell something, it has to be in a particular city, it has to start at a particular time, and you’re somewhat reliant on your audience actually being available and focused at that particular moment.  Having said that, you know and again to use another analogy, I think that’s race horses tend to run a little bit faster when they can hand the hooves of other horses beside them and I think very much — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right. Oliver Barker:  The same with bidders.  You know I think that there is something very compelling to a major collector to feel that there is a competition for a work, which very much validates that quality of that particular work.  I mean I think in a way to sort of buy something against a reserve price or with no other bidder or under bidder can to a lot of people be quite a difficult situation.  It suggests that your taste has not been validated on the day of acquisition. Steve Schindler:  And some of the language that you use in an auction also is — seems adversarial, you know, when you say to a bidder “against you” or you know it’s — Katie Wilson-Milne:  You’re setting up a competition almost. Oliver Barker:  I think there are people who are very determined when it comes to auction to actually try and acquire something.  So I think the auctioneer’s role is very much to help translate that kind of rigorousness on a bidder’s behalf to really acquire that trophy and acquire that sort of particular masterpiece.  I mean, I think I prefer to use the word cajole in a way, rather than kind of adversarial.  I am not — Steve Schindler:  Fair enough, fair enough. Oliver Barker:  I am not sure how many bidders are overly adversarial — Steve Schindler:  Fair enough. Oliver Barker:  If I am cajoling them well enough.  And if that means kind of questioning their virility of bidding, then that’s definitely something that we like to kind of use as a means.  And I think the audience is very receptive to it as well. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Well, it makes it very exciting, and Steve and I in preparing for this podcast did some reading about work that’s been done on the psychology of the auction, and it’s — it’s really interesting. Oliver Barker:  Yes, yes. Katie Wilson-Milne:  I mean, people just react completely differently in an auction setting than they would in a private sale.  And you know I was thinking of you sort of as this psychological master leading the auction.  Now do you think about — Oliver Barker:  Yeah. Katie Wilson-Milne:  You know.  Do you do any research on that, or how do you think about the psychological? Oliver Barker:  No, very much so, and I think that it’s very hard to kind of really define it particularly when you’re in a live environment like that.  You know, there are examples and you know one sticks to my mind probably more than any was when we did the big Damien Hirst “Beautiful Inside My Mind Forever” Sale in 2008.  I mean in terms of a presale environment, you could not have got a more heady mixture than the imminent collapse of Lehman Brothers happening during the presale exhibition of that sale and then the eventual collapse of the bank and kind of the financial tsunami in the stock exchanges that was the direct result of it, which happened on the 15th of September 2008.  And that was the kind of the back drop to which we then held the sale that evening in London at 7pm. So you know from the announcement first thing in the morning that the bank, or rather the central bankers in America had chose not to support Lehman Brothers and it fell into administration, you suddenly saw opening in the Turkey stock exchange this sort of financial malaise that spread west around the day.  So by 7pm that evening in London, of course there was, you know, this front page news in the Evening Standard.  We were incredibly worried about what would happen and how the transition would affect the auction.  But I think it’s fair to say that you know in any auction environment there is a kind of a vacuum-like opportunity or intensity if you like where the outside world is somehow put on hold and people are particularly focused on the auction itself and I think actually, because the auction of Damien Hirst works was a completely unmitigated success.  I think there was an element of, you know, yes, psychosomatically people were very involved and very engaged with those objects, but as an auctioneer, you know, I was hopefully able to get their real attention that night and there are no rules — I mean, I think also — no rules in terms of what a bidder’s limit might be.  I mean, depending on what their financial means are.  I mean, a lot of our bidders are very astute and they come in with a very fixed idea of what they want to spend on a particular object.  There may be those who on the night have a particular limit, but then blow straight through depending on their mood. Katie Wilson-Milne:  I was going to ask you just that, right, do they stick to it? Oliver Barker:  Yeah.  Well, it’s you know I — I can only speak for my own experience you know when I bid in auctions outside of Sotheby’s, quite honestly you know you set yourself a limit, and I did this actually buying my wife’s engagement ring, you know I set myself a limit and then I just blew straight through it, because it was just an object I had to have.  And I think that’s also dependent on you know the high into the market, you know when you’re dealing with kind of unique Rothko’s or Modigliani’s or Francis Bacon paintings or Picasso’s, and you saw it clearly with the Leonardo painting that came up at Christie’s.  You know I think in that case, when there is an element of scarcity and rarity and kind of you know a one-offness in the marketplace, there’s much more likely and to be a kind of stellar auction price, which will be very hard to replicate. Steve Schindler:  So, Ollie, you’ve been very generous with your time.  And we’re sad to let you go, but I would like to ask just one more question before we conclude.  You are an auctioneer in London, you are an auctioneer in New York.  Is there difference between auctions held in Europe and the United States, or even Hong Kong, just in terms of the atmosphere and the — Katie Wilson-Milne:  The buyers? Steve Schindler:  The buyers? Oliver Barker:  I think the short answer is yes.  But I think as an auctioneer I am very conscious about trying to engage a different audience in a different geographical location.  I mean I think that in New York, in particular, with the auction room at Sotheby’s, it’s a vast space, it seats many more people than our London auction room.  And I think that they are obviously the stakes in terms of the values of the works tend to be a lot of higher.  There is arguably more participation actually from the telephones than there are in any other auction location.  And I suppose for me, being based in London, it’s a slight cultural nuance just on the, in the basis of being in a different city. But you know it’s now become very familiar to me.  I mean, I certainly as an auctioneer I remember the first time I got up in New York to take an auction it really felt as if I was sort of entering in a tremendous environment, a huge kind of stage and obviously with works to kind of back that up.  I think in London just by definition our building here is a little bit more quaint, albeit the auction itself is still to an audience of possibly up to six, seven hundred people.  But I think, you know, one has to be attuned to the kind of the audience that is looking as well as the people who are likely to be tuning in.  I mean, it’s very difficult as an auctioneer to know exactly who is on the end of a telephone line or who is watching from the comfort of their own home in terms of online bidding for example, but — because there are more numerous ways of actually pricing bids these days, we have to be accountable for each for each possible one. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Great.  Well, thank you so much for speaking to us today.  I know our listeners will enjoy hearing your perspective. Steve Schindler:  Thank you, Ollie. Oliver Barker:  My pleasure.  Thanks, Steve.  Thanks, Katie. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Well — so let’s talk about the rules, rules are obviously exciting to us because we’re lawyers. Steve Schindler:  We are lawyers and we love rules. Katie Wilson-Milne:  And auctions, I mean auctions do feel a little bit like the wild west, right, they are theatrical, you have people acting on impulse, it’s really exciting, bids go up 10s of millions of dollars at a time, but there is actually rules to it and regulations, so Steve what are some of those rules? Steve Schindler:  Well, there are really two sets of rules that govern auctions in New York.  One is the uniform commercial code, which is a code of laws that are adopted across all 50 states that governs the sale of goods.  And art is really a fancy kind of good.  So, UCC Section 2328 provides a contractual framework for auctions.  And it basically says that a contract is formed and a sale is complete when the auctioneer’s hammer falls.  And there are some specifications in the UCC about what happens, for example, if the hammer is falling. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right. Steve Schindler:  And another bid comes in, and the UCC says under those circumstances the auctioneer has discretion to in a sense open up the bidding again.  The other thing that the UCC provides are some rules relating to whether or not there is a reserve or not.  If an auction goes forward without a reserve price, then once the bidding starts, the lot can never be withdrawn. So if the bidding is $5 or $10, it doesn’t matter what the object is worth, at that point the seller is kind of stuck with it and when the hammer falls that’s it.  If there is a reserve then, of course, the object can always be withdrawn from sale unless the reserve is hit. The UCC provides for two kinds of warrantees that are important in the purchase of art.  One is a warranty of title and the other is a warranty of authenticity.  A warranty of title, whether you’re buying from an auction house or from a dealer, is implicit in any sale.  The second warranty is a warranty of authenticity.  A warranty of authenticity, unlike the warranty of title, has to be expressed.  You need to say what you’re warranting in some fashion, and the way that works under the UCC with respect to an auction catalogue is if the work is listed in the catalogue as the work of a particular artist, that constitutes a warranty — Katie Wilson-Milne:  That it is. Steve Schindler:  That it is the work of that artist as supposed to other ways of formulating the catalogue description, such as something is “the school of” or “in the style of,” but whenever it is that you sell something and you list it in the catalogue as being the work of an artist, you are and the auction house is warranting that the work is authentic.  Warrantees of authenticity and title carry with them a four year statute of limitations, but one of the things that the auction house does with respect to its warranty of authenticity is to provide for a five year guarantee of the authenticity of the work, so they actually give you one more year than you normally get. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right.  So if there is a problem with the work you buy at auction, you can go back to Sotheby’s or Christie’s within five years pretty much no questions asked as long as you have some backup for your concern.  They’ll give you your money back, take the work, and then it’s up to them to go to the consigner or the seller to sort things out with them. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And one of the things we know from working with auction houses is that they do a very thorough job on the consignment side.  So — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Well they have a lot at stake. Steve Schindler:  They have a lot at stake, and so you know that they are working very diligently to make sure that the works that they are selling have title and that they are what they are purporting to be. Katie Wilson-Milne:  And even if something comes up after the contracts have been signed, after the catalogue has been out, if something comes up that one of the auction houses doesn’t feel good about prior to auction, they can withdraw their work at their complete discretion.  And we have seen that a number of times that they’re really cautious, and they’ll pull something at the last minute. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And it’s a very difficult decision to make, because obviously it’s not great for the consigner.  In New York, the New York City Department of Consumer Affairs also has a set of rules for licensing auctioneers and regulating public auctions.  And interestingly these rules were substantially revised in the 1980s, particularly in the aftermath of a scandal that hit Christie’s as an auction house, where a number of works were not in fact sold because reserves were not met, but in order to boost the market, Christie’s and its then chairman falsely reported that the works were in fact sold. And after that happened, the chairman of Christie’s at the time was forced to resign and the Department of Consumer Affairs decided that they needed to get a little bit tougher with the regulation of auctions just to make sure that the public would feel secure in bidding at an auction.  After their obligations to the vendors and the consigners, which, Katie, I know you’ll talk about a little bit, the main obligation the auction house has to the buying public is to really ensure that the bidding is fair and that the sale conditions are transparent and that everybody knows the rules. So a few of the things that were changed at the time that these rules were overhauled was that the existence of the secret reserve price now must be disclosed, not the amount of it, but the fact that there is a secret reserve price must be disclosed.  Also when we talked about guarantees before, if there is a guarantee that is given on a lot, that also must be disclosed.  We know that auctioneers under the rules are never allowed to bid for their own account unless that bidding is disclosed and except up to the reserve price.  We talked about chandelier bidding, for example.  If there is to be chandelier bidding, it has to be disclosed, and all of these disclosures are normally made in the big auction catalogues with — Katie Wilson-Milne:  With little symbols. Steve Schindler:  With little symbols, when you look at the terms of sales, it goes through all these types of items and then indicates whether there are guarantees, whether there are financial incentives of any kind being offered to the sellers.  And the idea is that this kind of information will help inform the market in their bidding.  And sometimes, in fact, when these conditions change even at the last minute, the auction houses will post notices outside the auction room with any disclosures that have to be made. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So the New York City Consumer Affairs rules also require that there be a written contract for every auction between the auction house, or the auctioneer, and the seller, commissions that are charged have to be disclosed.  There has to be a disclosure of any interest that the auction house or any related party has in the work, whether they own a part of the work or, you know, have an interest in a guarantee on the work.  The auctioneer cannot disclaim warranty of title even though under certain circumstances the UCC would permit that, which is what Steve was just talking about, and the consigner has to make a warranty of title.  So there is two ways that the buyer is protected in terms of the title. So there is also this concept in auctions of an enhanced hammer price.  And that means, in the old model, auction houses made most of their money from consigners paying them a fee.  So if I owned a work of art and I went to an auction house and sold it, I would give them a percentage of what I got from the sale.  For a variety of reasons I think mostly, Steve, because of competition among the auction houses to get sellers to consign amazing works, the auction houses for certain clients charge very little if anything of a seller’s commission.  And now they seem to be getting most of their money from what’s called the buyer’s commission. Steve Schindler:  And the buyer’s premium is something that’s set out in the — very clearly in the terms of sale and the buyer’s premium, unlike the seller’s commission, is really never negotiable. Katie Wilson-Milne:  The amount of the buyer’s premium changes depending on the price of the work. Steve Schindler:  Right. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right so — Steve Schindler:  As the price of the work goes up, the percentage of the premium goes down. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Goes down a little bit.  And so, but it’s even beyond that now right, Steve?  So now the competition is so fierce for sellers or consigners that sometimes the auction house will promise the seller a share of the buyer’s premium which is the original fee that’s supposed to go to the auction house. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And that’s known as an enhanced hammer. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Or under the New York Consumer Affairs Laws a rebate.  So auction houses are agents.  They work for the seller technically, so they are a fiduciary of the seller, not of the buyer.  Although the regulations and rules that we just talked about, the UCC and the New York Consumer Affairs Rules, really mostly serve to protect the buyer.  So it’s sort of an interesting relationship in that is a fiduciary relationship.  The auction house is a fiduciary of the seller, which means that they have to act in the utmost good faith and in the interest of the consigner throughout their relationship, meaning they have to take care of the consigned work, they have a duty to disclose details that influence what the work can sell for, how auction-able it is, if there are any issues that come up in due diligence about the work, then the proceeds from the auction sales are really held in trust for the seller they belong to the seller and the auction house holds them as a fiduciary meaning it can’t use those proceeds for other business purposes. So those basic fiduciary laws exist in the auction-consigner relationship, but they’re overlaid with practices and rules that come up in the UCC and the Consumer Affairs Rules that really make the relationship one towards the buyer as well.  And I think this is unique to the auction world that the auction is facing the seller as a fiduciary, as an agent, and the buyer with all these rules of disclosure that come out. Steve Schindler:  Yeah.  So it’s a little bit different than a sort of gallery situation.  I mean, there you have the same technical legal relationships.  You have a consigner of works to a gallery is in a fiduciary relationship with the gallery owner, and the customers or the clients at the gallery are not, but you don’t have that same level of regulation governing — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right. Steve Schindler:  The sort of practices vis-a-vis the client. Katie Wilson-Milne:  It seems to be more clear in the private sale world who is responsible to whom, that the gallery is a fiduciary of either the artist whose work they’re selling.  Or if they take a work from a collector to sell, they are the agent of that collector and it’s a little more clear.  In the auction world, there are all these regulations.  Some of the practices that seem to conflict with traditional fiduciary-like obligations are guarantees where the auction house has an incentive to make money on its own account if it can sell work for above the guarantee, right? Steve Schindler:  Right. Katie Wilson-Milne:  And then it’s dealing with this potential third party who also has an interest in the outcome of the sale and it’s not the seller. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And I think the other really important fiduciary obligation that the auction house has to the consigner of works is this question of auctionability, of looking at a work and deciding — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Yeah. Steve Schindler:  is this something that should really be in an auction or in an auction this May or November or is it something that really should be sold privately, because if you put something up for auction that isn’t right, then the consequences to the seller are pretty severe.  It’s a sort of public shaming of the work and that is you know very difficult for an entity who lives — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Makes all it’s money — Steve Schindler:  On selling people’s works at auction.  So, it’s a really important fiduciary duty.  It’s one that I think that the auction houses try to live up to, but it does create a natural tension. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Yeah.  And I think we would call these things potential conflicts of interests, the guarantee, the fact that auction houses want things to go to auction even while they’re fiduciaries of the seller and it may not make sense for something to go to auction at a certain time.  And then there is the buyer’s premium, where the auction house is getting paid by the buyer and is incentivized to sell work at a certain price or a certain time so that they can get the buyer’s commission.  And then what about art loans does that — how does — how do art loans fit into the fiduciary obligations of the house?  How do art loans work in the auction? Steve Schindler:  So, art loans now are fairly common.  They can either be made by the auction houses themselves.  For example Sotheby’s has a significant loan and finance department, and what it typically does is offer advances to consigners who were selling works at an auction.  So if I put my work up for auction in May, but it’s January and I’d like to have some cash in advance, typically they will loan you 50% of the low estimate. What’s problematic here is that if the work doesn’t sell at auction then you still have to pay back the loan.  And — so I would say that the interfacing of the auction house and their making of the loan, that that’s not a fiduciary relationship that that is an arms length relationship no different than if you went out to a bank or to a special purpose financing company and sought a similar kind of loan. Katie Wilson-Milne:  The buyer is paying interest to the auction house too, so it’s a profitable enterprise — Steve Schindler:  Yeah and — Katie Wilson-Milne:  theoretically. Steve Schindler:  And it started out really as an accommodation business.  I think it’s grown a little bit past that, but the idea would be if you were Sotheby’s or Christie’s and you are competing for prized consignments, one of the incentives that you would offer your consigners would be an advance. Katie Wilson-Milne:  And now they can make a loan, that’s in a more traditional lending format and gets some interest in the process. Steve Schindler:  Right. Katie Wilson-Milne:  It sounds like  we should do a whole episode on art lending and — Steve Schindler:  Maybe we should — Katie Wilson-Milne:  art finance. Steve Schindler:  I think we will. Katie Wilson-Milne:  So another way or a way that the auction houses and the auction system gets around this potential conflict between fiduciary obligations to the seller and rules of disclosure to the buyer is in their contracts.  And as is always true, having a contract that lays out the terms of a relationship is a great idea and it prevents other legal claims such as breach of fiduciary duty.  So it’s pretty clear in the law that you can modify fiduciary obligations by contract.  And that is just what the auction houses do, so they have consigner agreements with the seller and they have terms of sale.  And both of those are contractual obligations, either between the seller and the auction house, in the case of the consignment agreement and in terms of sale between all three parties the auction house, the seller, and the buyer. So what are the main contract terms that are laid out in a consignment agreement in terms of sale?  One is the commissions to make clear who is benefitting from what that the seller knows there may be a buyer’s commission, if they have a share in that or not.  That’s all laid out.  So any potential conflict of interest is disclosed and accepted by both parties.  The seller, the consigner makes representations and warranties with respect to clear title, the ability to sell the work or authority to sell the work if it’s an entity selling, authenticity of the work etc., and the contract will lay out the consequences to the seller if those warrantees and reps are not true. And that’s because as we’ve just said the auction house has a duty to the buyer which is both governed by the UCC and under the auction house’s contractual obligation to take work back within five years, if there is an issue with authenticity.  The contract with the seller means they can go back to the seller and sue them if need to be to recover the value they lost from accommodating the buyer. Steve Schindler:  And what happens now if the buyer doesn’t pay? There have been a couple of lawsuits that have been in the headlines lately about buyers who have made bids and then just decided not to pay. Katie Wilson-Milne:  It’s kind of incredible to me that that happens that you could be a high profile enough bidder to be at a big night auction at Sotheby’s or Christie’s, that they would vet you financially ,which we know they do, and they have to.  That’s smart.  And it would still happen that the buyer’s like, “no actually I changed my mind, I’m not going to pay.”  So — Steve Schindler:  So then what happens if you are a seller? Katie Wilson-Milne:  So if you’re a seller, the contract says that the auction house is under no real obligation to go and collect money for the sale. Steve Schindler:  Right. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Like they’re going to do their best to sell it.  It’s clear you know what reps and warrantees are being made, but if the auction house doesn’t get the money, they can’t give it to you.  So the seller really does bare the risk of that.  Now, both the seller and the auction house may have civil causes of action where they can go after the so-called buyer who didn’t pay for breach of contract, and that is in fact what happens.  If it’s enough money that it’s worth it, the auction house will sue. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And even they don’t have a legal obligation to do it, they probably in order to just to preserve the integrity of their auction and to entice other people to sell with them, they need to sometimes enforce the promises of buyers. Katie Wilson-Milne:  They could also have a 20% interest in — Steve Schindler:  That’s right too. Katie Wilson-Milne:  The sale price, so it might be — it might be financially worth it for the auction house, too. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And what about do auction houses now concern themselves with money laundering and source of funds? Katie Wilson-Milne:  They do greatly.  And we deal with this a lot.  There is increasing oversight I think from banks with large amounts of money moving in and out of accounts.  So there’s some financial regulation, which is not regulation of the art world though, which overlaps with the art world, just because it’s about movement of funds.  There is also, we know, for Chinese buyers pretty strict regulations in China with respect to how much money can leave China every year, and it’s a really low number.  So there are reasons that the auction house is going to want to check into the type of client they’re dealing or the type of potential buyer to make sure that they’re not going to get caught up in some kind of regulatory investigation or lawsuit or third party subpoena where they’re going to have to turn over their records and be scrutinized. Steve Schindler:  So I think it’s fair to say, and it’s not obvious, that you can’t just stroll into a high-profile auction in the evening for major pieces of Contemporary Art and pick up a paddle and then just sort of raise it away. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Indeed no. Steve Schindler:  That there is a lot of due diligence both on the seller’s side and the buyer’s side that the auction house is performing.  That’s one of the things that — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Before you get the paddle. Steve Schindler:  Exactly. Katie Wilson-Milne:  Yeah.  And that’s probably something that’s changed dramatically and increasingly as the art market has taken off and become you know a $60 billion  industry, that it becomes harder and harder to take part in one of these auctions because there is too much at stake if you don’t pay, or it’s going to get the auction house in trouble.  So the contracts that the auction houses has with the seller also protects the auction house by providing a broad indemnification from the seller.  So just like we were talking about a minute ago, if something goes wrong with the sale, there is a title issue despite the fact that the seller warranted there wasn’t or there is an authenticity issue, the seller says, “I am going to cover those costs for you, the auction house, including your legal fees. I’ll refund you the work.”  Now, enforcing it is a different matter, but the seller does indemnify the auction house.  It doesn’t directly protect the buyer.  The buyer will still go to the auction house and the auction house will protect the buyer, but they can then turn around and go to the seller.  It also provides that the seller is going to pay certain expenses, that there’ll be reserve prices, what happens if the reserve isn’t met, that it will be bought in, that it will be announced publicly. And then, too, I think the most significant contractual modifications of the fiduciary relationships, which are that the auction house maintains until the date of sale the right to rescind in its sole judgment if it thinks there is any liability possible.  So it doesn’t even have to explain to the seller.  It might want to, because they want to maintain that client relationship, but the auction house has the right until right before auction to pull a sale for any reason if it feels that there is some liability involved.  And they do.  They do do that. Steve Schindler:  Right.  And sometimes it doesn’t seem entirely fair.  There was a case a couple of years ago involving a consignment of a work of Katie Nolan to Sotheby’s — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Right. Steve Schindler:  And Katie Nolan had prior to the sale disclaimed authorship of the work because it had been in her view improperly conserved — Katie Wilson-Milne:  Was she the consigner or she — Steve Schindler:  No, she was not the consigner, but she was — she was — Katie Wilson-Milne:  She was the author of the work. Steve Schindler:  The author of the work and we know under the Visual Artists Rights Act that the author— Katie Wilson-Milne:  If you listened to our last episode. Steve Schindler:  Yes.  That the author of a work has the right to disclaim authorship of the work if she believes that it has been damaged in a way it would reflect poorly on her honor and integrity.  And in this case, Katie Nolan had viewed the work, observed that it had been improperly conserved, in her view, and publicly disclaimed authorship of the work, at which point Sotheby’s felt compelled to pull the work from the auction because it no longer could in its view give a warranty of authenticit

My guest on the show today is one of the original gangstas of the digital music business: Larry Miller. Half a decade before Apple launched iTunes, Larry was carving a path. In 1998, he co-founded a2b music, one of the first digital music distribution companies. He went on to become President of Reciprocal Music, another groundbreaking digitial distribution & technology company, and later co-founded the Or Music label, which won a Grammy with their artist Los Lonely Boys. These days, Larry is the Director of the NYU Steinhardt Music Business Program, where he’s shaping the intellect of young people who will write the next chapter in the history of the music business. There’s a very wise saying: History is written by the victors. Here’s the accepted history of the digital music business: The major labels were clueless about the internet and were doing nothing until Napster appeared and killed the music business. Luckily, Steve Jobs and Apple saved the day by inventing digital downloads and selling them in iTunes. True veterans of the early digital music business know that things were a bit more complex than that. It was an exciting time and things evolved very quickly, too fast to keep up with. The truth is that starting in the mid-90’s, many technology pioneers were working closely with the major labels to shape the digital future of the music business. It was an incredible time of experimentation and learning. Of course the ideas weren’t all viable, so the labels cautiously dabbled, thinking they’d control the timetable of how these new technologies would roll out. After all, that’s how it always worked whenever a new format came along. Of course this time they were wrong. Napster came along and burned all the cautious optimism to the ground. Steve Jobs had great timing, arriving when the majors were fatigued from fighting and desperate for an easy fix to complex problems. So a new history was written, and the story of what came before was brushed away like ashes. We did this podcast over an early breakfast at the Mansion Diner at 86th & York Avenue, hitting record and chatting amongst the sounds of New Yorkers waking up to a gorgeous Fall morning. Larry Miller on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_S._Miller NYU Steinhardt: http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/music/business Musonomics Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/musonomics/id985799104?mt=2 The Mansion Restaurant: http://www.mansionrestaurantnewyork.com Shawn Colvin & Steve Earle: http://www.rollingstone.com/country/features/steve-earle-and-shawn-colvin-talk-new-album-rehab-and-trump-w431117  

Travel to New York City as we explore this mecca for travelers from all around the world.  Jackie Clair of York Avenue blog is our resident tour guide as she shows us the amazing features that make up her favorite spots of New York City.  Jackie also shows us around Long Island including some great insider information for visiting the Hamptons.

Guest Lydia Glenn-Murray will talk about her brand new interdisciplinary project space Chin’s Push, located on York Avenue in northeast L.A. The space, which includes a small store-front gallery, a residential house and a parked trailer (all used for art projects) has been open for less than a year, but Lydia has already produced a multitude of experimental, communal, wildly creative exhibitions, events and performances.