Telling Jefferson Lies

Send us a textRecently, David Barton and Matt Krause testified in front of the Texas House of Representatives Public Education committee. Barton and Krause both said some historically questionable things to support the placement of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom. A premise of this podcast is that it takes faulty history to pursue Christian nationalist goals, one of which is to erode separation of church and state. Texas Representatives John Bryant and James Talarico scrutinized Barton's and Kruse's arguments and determined that placing a Christian version of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom was unfair and un-American. The episode begins with a passionate appeal by Bryant and Talarico for fairness and ends with an analysis of faulty history which is being used to oppose fairness. Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack (Gulf of Mexico Blues, Nebula); Jeremiah Lawson (Sonata for Guitar in A minor), and Jonus Fair (The Rest is History).Written and produced by Warren ThrockmortonThe podcast will be on break until June. Watch for new episodes with material from Andrew Whitehead, Katherine Stewart, Roger Finke, Jemar Tisby, Jeremie Beller, and much more in the second half of season two. 

In this segment, I examine the notion that there was something remarkably Christian about America's founding era. Last week, I fact-checked Charlie Kirk's viral video defense of the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation in the legal sense. Most of what Kirk had to say was irrelevant or incorrect. Today, I consider an overview of moral and religious failings during the founding era. Along with guests Jemar Tisby, Mark Noll, George Marsden, Caleb Campbell, and Aaron Cowan, I contradict Charlie Kirk's call to return to America's Christian roots. In fact, those roots don't seem very Christian when one considers the injustice and atrocities throughout the historical record.From the segment: "With slavery, treachery, mass murder, betrayal and theft embedded in the legacy of the nation, what does it matter how many times a Supreme Being is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or if the Liberty Bell has Leviticus on it?"Written and produced by Warren ThrockmortonMusic provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair  

In 2024, Charlie Kirk distributed a five-minute video defense of the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation. It has been played at least 20 million times on various social media platforms and is full of faulty history. This segment serves to correct the false claims and defend the proposition that America's founders set out to found a secular government with provision for religious pluralism. Unfortunately, this only applied to white males at first. Kirk and his fellow Christian nationalists use a variety of false stories to prop up a vision of a Christian American founding. They want to go back to that mythical time. In this segment, historians Aaron Cowan, Randall Balmer, and George Marsden, English professor Matthew Boedy, and co-host Michael Coulter join me to debunk Kirk's false claims and advocate for good history and religious pluralism.For primary sources referred to in this segment, see this link: https://warrenthrockmorton.substack.com/p/charlie-kirks-christian-america  Written and produced by Warren Throckmorton. Music provided by Earl's Taco Shack and Jonus Fair.  

On January 3, 2025, Louisiana Representative Mike Johnson was re-elected to be Speaker of the House. In his acceptance speech, he quoted a prayer that he said Thomas Jefferson said every day during his presidency and every day of his life thereafter. There is a problem with this story. The prayer was written 56 years after Jefferson died. Jefferson never said the prayer even one day of his life. Later, Johnson and the House chaplain refused to acknowledge they spread false witness to the whole country. Before the prayer was associated with Jefferson, it was falsely tied to George Washington. For many years, people who believe America was founded as a Christian nation have desperately wanted George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to be on their team. In this episode, we will hear from Word and Way editor Brian Kaylor and Willamette University history professor Seth Cotlar as they describe how a common prayer became an American myth.  To read the prayer, titled "For Our Country," go to the 1928 edition of the Book of Common Prayer, page 36. An online version is here: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928Standard/bcp1928std.pdf Telling Jefferson Lies is a product of Warren Throckmorton and today brought to you by the 3rd edition of Getting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson. For more information about the book or Warren Throckmorton's substack, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.The next episode will be out within two weeks and I will announce the schedule for the season at that point. Music for the segment was provided by Roman Candle, Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, Jonus Fair, Robo Surgeon Fish, and Dustin Blatnik.  If you like what's going on here, please subscribe, tell your friends, and leave a lovely review. Thanks for listening. 

In 2024, a video featuring Charlie Kirk defending America as a Christian nation was viewed over 10 millions times on social media. Many of the claims were false or misleading. This season of Telling Jefferson Lies will examine this video and other Christian nation claims by Christian nationalists in addition to Kirk. The first full episode is planned for April. There are lies, there are Jefferson Lies, and then there are Christian nationalists' stories. Music by Warren Throckmorton and Jonus Fair. Host Warren Throckmorton; guest Matthew Boedy.  

Although the dates have not been set, new episodes of Telling Jefferson Lies are coming this Spring. I want to go deeper into the faulty history of Christian nationalism but also examine the psychology behind it as well. Christian nationalism as an ideology is much more complex than fake quotes and false stories. The way history has been written from the beginning of the arrival of the Europeans must be examined as well.This trailer focuses on January 6 with a clip from David and Tim Barton doing their Christian nationalist duty to distract from the reality of the insurrection at the Capitol. Immediately after the insurrection, Christian nationalists blamed antifa but Trump supporters who were on the ground said that conspiracy theory was wrong. Thanks to Katherine Stewart for her commentary in this brief segment. 

On September 3, 2024, author and historian Jemar Tisby's new book The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Jemar for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies. In this episode, I recreate my questions because of a recording glitch in the original. The recording on Jemar's end was excellent with brilliant content to match, so this is a quality and thought provoking episode. We cover much of the podcast material (e.g., Thomas Jefferson as an enslaver, David Barton's faux history, the need for accuracy in history), but he also ventures into some discussion of why racism still persists in the present-day and the definition of evangelical and the need to see that category in political terms as much as or more so than religious terms. Add in the smooth tunes, and these 26 minutes are well worth your time.   Tisby, who is also Professor of History at the Simmons College of Kentucky appears in episodes 5, 6, 9, 11, and 13 of Telling Jefferson Lies. The opening music is "That Guy" provided by Dustin Blatnik and Robo Surgeon Fish, and the closer is also Dustin Blatnik and Lo-Fi Hymnal with "Ain't No Grave."Tell a friend and thanks for listening. 

On July 2, 2024, Caleb Campbell's new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Caleb for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies. In this episode, I do say I want to smash Christian nationalists, but I hope it is clear that I am not serious, but instead I agree with Caleb's approach. There is often a difference between what we might feel like doing and we know we should do, and Caleb points us to our better angels. The opening music is something I lovingly call the Christian Nationalist Dance and the closer is Lo-Fi Hymnal's rendition of Were You There.  

Excerpts from my interview with Scott Coley, lecturer in philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University. His new book Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right is out this week. In this bonus episode of the podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies, Scott discusses Christo-authoritarianism and the role of justice in overcoming self-interest. Music credits:Seiche by Dustin BlatnikDebris by Roman CandleNight Walk by Warren Throckmorton

Often debates focus on Christian nationalism and the problems which come from blurring the line between church and state. In this episode, I end the Telling Jefferson Lies series with some thoughts and testimony from experts about what is good about separation. Helping me close out the series are:Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth CollegeCaleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix, AZMichael Coulter, Professor, Political Science and Humanities, Grove City CollegeGreg Forster, theologian, Trinity International UniversityCharles Haynes,  senior fellow for religious liberty at the Freedom ForumPaul Kemeny, Dean of Arts and Letters, Grove City CollegeJoel McDurmon, Attorney, theologianGlenn Sunshine, Colson FellowsThe closing song is Gemini by Robo Surgeon Fish. You can add it to your Spotify playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/track/6vqnUYyOrqLAWudh6Z5B5x?si=d76ccbb6edb94cfcTheme Song: The World Awaits Us All, Roman CandleBackground Music: Jonathan Swaim, Robo Surgeon Fish, Warren ThrockmortonTelling Jefferson Lies was written, produced, and hosted by Warren ThrockmortonTo see what's next, follow my blog/substack at warrenthrockmorton.substack.comFor more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

In 2005, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor asked an important question for those who would erode separation of church and state: "Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly? "I spend much of this episode affirming that we should not trade. Much of this series has been raising alarm about Christian nationalism and supporting separation of church and state. This episode assembles an all-star cast of experts in favor of a strong separation position. Joining me are:Randall Balmer: John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth CollegeRob Boston: Communications Dir. Americans United for Separation of Church & StateCharles Haynes: Senior fellow at the Freedom Forum Troy Jackson: Historian, civil rights activist, founder of UndividedGeorge Marsden: Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame UniversityMark Noll: Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame UniversityJemar Tisby: Historian, author, civil right activistShow Notes:The closing song is Twisting History by Jonus Fair and the theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman Candle. Background music is provided by Jonathan Swaim and yours truly. Thanks to Grove City College Social Work professor Jennifer Hollenberger for the opening affirmation!For more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

In this segment, I argue that Christian nationalism is bad for religion in general and bad for Christianity in the specific case. This segment sets up the finale which argues that separation of church and state is a benefit to the United States and should be strengthened. If you like experts and multiple voices, this is the segment for you. Here is the lineup:Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth CollegePaul Kemeny, Dean of Arts and Letters, Grove City CollegeBob Smietana, Journalist, Religion News ServiceCaleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix, AZGeorge Marsden, Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame UniversityMark Noll, Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame UniversityKatherine Stewart, Author, journalistJohn Fea, Professor of history, Messiah UniversityGreg Thornbury, Author “Why Should The Devil Have All The Good Music?Charles Haynes,  senior fellow for religious liberty at the Freedom ForumJonathan Larsen, journalistGreg Forster, theologian, Trinity International UniversitySHOW NOTES:The closing song is Old Time Religion by the Tuskegee Institute Singers.The Telling Jefferson Lies theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman CandleBackground music provided by Jonathan Swaim, Dustin Blatnik, Warren ThrockmortonFor more information, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.

In this short bonus episode, Dartmouth College professor Randall Balmer provides an introduction to reasons why he doesn't see the U.S. as a Christian nation. Dr. Balmer is the John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth College. He has spoken at numerous colleges and universities, including where I met him, Grove City College. Balmer has published more than a dozen books, including Redeemer: The Life of Jimmy Carter, God in the White House: How Faith Shaped the Presidency from John F. Kennedy to George W. Bush, and Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of the Religious Right. His second book, Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: A Journey into the Evangelical Subculture in America, now in its fifth edition, was made into an award-winning, three-part documentary for PBS. Two more regular segments are planned with the series concluding by the end of April.  I hope to post some additional bonus episodes after the final regular segment. Closing song today is Ain't No Grave by LoFi Hymnal. https://open.spotify.com/track/4Gi1aZgcQdXvBZECPyKXhG?si=b93eb41870914f66Background music by Jonathan Swaim and Warren ThrockmortonTelling Jefferson Lies is hosted, written, and produced by Warren Throckmorton. For more information about the podcast or the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

In general terms, I believe Christian nationalism is bad history, bad politics, and bad religion. In prior episodes, I have concentrated on the bad history. In this segment and the next, I focus mainly on the bad politics. Around the world, religious nationalism is associated with state sponsored violence against citizens, use of force to take political control, erosion of the separation of church and state, degrading of democratic principles and attacks on minority rights. I believe Christian nationalism is also bad for Christianity which I will examine in the next episode.Note: I did not mention that long time Fellowship leader Doug Coe passed away in 2017. I believe that explains some of the shifting within the Fellowship. Having said that, there always was an element within that group which didn't make a strong commitment to human rights. Resources mentioned:The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet. The Family, Netflix documentary, by Jeff Sharlet. Charismatic Revival Fury, podcast by Matthew Taylor, produced by Brad OnishiExpert guests this segment: Dartmouth College historian and author Randall Balmer, Communications director at Americans United for the Separation of Church and State Rob Boston,  Louisville pastor and social worker Joel Bowman, Mount St Mary's University philosophy instructor Scott Coley, Grove City College social work associate professor Jennifer Hollenberger, historian Troy Jackson, journalist Jonathan Larsen, author and journalist Katherine Stewart, religion scholar with the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies Matthew Taylor, and historian and author Jemar Tisby.  SHOW NOTES:Telling Jefferson Lies is written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton. For more information about the podcast or the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. Today's closing song is Debris by Roman Candle. Telling Jefferson Lies Theme song is The World Awaits Us All also by Roman Candle. See the show notes for more credits. Just two more episodes to go. Please like the podcast and spread the word on social media. Thanks for listening. 

As promised, here is the completion of my examination of David Barton's whitewashing of Thomas Jefferson. In our book Getting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson, Michael Coulter and I assume the position held by most scholars and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation when it comes to the paternity of Sally Hemings children, i.e., Thomas Jefferson was their father. In The Jefferson Lies, David Barton deceives readers about what Madison Hemings said about his mother. Here is what Barton said Hemings told a Pike County (OH) newspaper in 1873."The other major oral tradition challenging Jefferson's sexual morality came from Sally Hemings' son Madison (the fourth Hemings child, born in 1805). In an article published in an Ohio newspaper in 1873, Madison Hemings claimed that in France “my mother became Mr. Jefferson's concubine, and when he was called back home she was enceinte [pregnant] by him” with Thomas Woodson."Here is what Madison Hemings actually had published in that newspaper:"But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson's concubine, and when he was called home she was enciente by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promises, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston—three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families."Hemings did not mention Woodson because he was irrelevant. Sally Hemings first child lived but "a short time." Barton didn't tell his readers that part of the story.The Monticello website on Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson: https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/Research Report: https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/research-report-on-jefferson-and-hemings/SHOW NOTES:For more information about Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.  The closing song is Were You There by LoFi Hymnal. https://open.spotify.com/track/19oJxhr6efnpU7LVBzUQz2?si=c94873948db84fbdBackground music by Jonathan Swaim, Roman Candle, and Warren ThrockmortonThe series will conclude during the final week of April with an episode on the virtues of the separation of church and state.  Watch for additional episodes between now and then.  If you like the pod, leave a positive review. 

This supplements episode 10, Still Searching for Christian America, Part Two. You can listen to this first, but I definitely encourage you to go back and catch up if you do. Everybody in Christian nationalism is talking about the seven mountains message. The message is at the root of much violent rhetoric coming from Christian nationalists but according to one of the key players in the movement, the origin story is fake. Helping me out in this bonus episode is Senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies Matthew Taylor; English prof at University of North Georgia Matthew Boedy, and attorney and theologian Joel McDurmon.From the episode:"Remember, all of this rhetoric has been directly inspired by a teaching that is based on a false story. Let's keep it real, God did not show Loren Cunningham, Lance Wallnau, Mike Crotts, Johnny Enlow or anyone that the Christian's mission in this world is to take the government by stealth or by force. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." SHOW NOTESHosted, written and produced by Warren ThrockmortonClosing song is Endless Runner by the amazing Robo Surgeon Fish.https://open.spotify.com/track/5IyxikZ3PJYyFWhdoLkbCf?si=c7409ab3f4be4c6cTelling Jefferson Lies Playlist with many of the songs featured in the series:https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2yMPnORBMXNa0JuJP2u5uo?si=3e6463d8fb554cacMatthew Taylor's podcast Charismatic Revival Fury:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/charismatic-revival-fury-the-new-apostolic-reformation/id1738709631Many of the clips for the series come from Right Wing Watch, especially those documenting the violent rhetoric of Christian nationalist leaders.  I encourage you to follow them on social media. 

In this episode, I describe the National Prayer Breakfast movement, right-wing Christian nationalists, Reconstructionists, and non-denominational charismatic Christian nationalists.  My guests for this episode are:Julie Ingersoll, Professor of religion at the University of North Florida and author of Building God's Kingdom: Inside the World of Christian ReconstructionJonathan Larsen: Journalist, https://jonathanlarsen.substack.com/Joel McDurmon: Attorney, theologian, and author of several books including The Problem of Slavery in Christian America. Katherine Stewart: Journalist, author of Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism. The documentary God and Country, produced by Rob Reiner is based on this book. Matthew Taylor: Senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies and author of the book due out on September 24, The Violent Take It by Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy.Resources mentioned:The Family by Jeff Sharlet - https://www.netflix.com/title/80063867 (full disclosure, I appear in three segments of this series)Kevin Kruse, One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America.SHOW NOTESClosing Song - American Dream by Kate Thornburyhttps://open.spotify.com/track/5Fq2zf9Z8jCFLN1EOeYun6?si=4d1ee70f65304625Theme Song - The World Awaits Us Allhttps://open.spotify.com/track/1itsWJuQnnx5bPbNJpkx51?si=621fb898b60f4ccbBackground music: Dustin Blatnik, Warren Throckmorton, Jon Comden, the Columbia Band

In 1983, Mark Noll, Nathan Hatch, and George Marsden published a book titled The Search for Christian America. They concluded that there was nothing uniquely Christian in the founding of the United States and there is no Christian America to which to return. In this episode, both Drs. Noll and Marsden join me to say they believe today they were right in 1983 and the same conclusions are correct today. In between comments from these illustrious historians, I interview experts regarding the various conceptions of Christian nationalism, including "secular" leaning nationalism, white nationalism, and Catholic varieties, including integralism. I also provide a brief look at the research approach to describing Christian nationalism.  This is part one of two parts. Next week, I examine Reconstructionism, Seven Mountains dominionism, the old guard moral majority Christian nationalism, and the National Prayer Breakfast movement.   Guests in today's episode: Joel Bowman, Scott Coley, Michael Coulter, Greg Forster, Goerge Marsden, Paul Matzko, Mark Noll, Matthew Taylor, Jemar Tisby. SHOW NOTES;Produced, written, and hosted by Warren ThrockmortonClosing Song - Every Time by Roman Candlehttps://open.spotify.com/track/5N9QXoxHPTkQWy39PtQPNX?si=a095c40062e64e8eTheme Song - The World Awaits Us AllAdditional Christian Nationalism Resources:Building God's Kingdom by Julie Ingersoll The Flag and the Cross by Philip GorskiTaking America Back for God by Samuel Perry and Andrew WhiteheadWhite Too Long by Robert JonesThe Color of Compromise by Jemar TisbyThe Power Worshippers by Katherine StewartThe Religion of American Greatness by Paul MillerAmerican Idolatry by Andrew WhiteheadWhite Evangelical Racism by Anthea Butler=Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du MezGetting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson  by Warren Throckmorton & Michael Coulter.For reporting on Christian nationalism, follow Jenny Cohn at the Bucks County Beacon.@jennycohn1Christian Nationali

Stephen Wolfe's book The Case for Christian Nationalism ignited a firestorm of controversy when it was released in 2022.  In the book, Wolfe calls for revolt against tyranny and for Christians to mobilize at the state and local level to enact self-conscious Christian governments. In principle, according to Wolfe, Christian state's could use violence to maintain a Christian social order. With the help of Cato Institute historian Paul Matzko, podcast host Warren Throckmorton analyzes how Wolfe deals with Thomas Jefferson and highlights differences from other Christian nationalists such as David Barton. Also joining the program is Grove City College Dean of Arts and Letters and church historian Paul Kemeny. The Apostle Paul is also quoted so if you like Pauls, this episode is for you. SHOW NOTES:Paul Matzko's review of The Case for Christian Nationalism at Reason Magazine.https://reason.com/2023/05/13/beware-the-christian-prince/Thanks to Charles Norman and the Larry Norman Estate for permission to play Larry Norman's song, "Six, Sixty, Six" as today's closing song. Telling Jefferson Lies' theme song is "The World Awaits Us All" by Roman Candle. Thanks to Skip Matheny and Roman Candle for permission to play their music.Jonathan Swaim and I provide background music for today's episode.  

SHOW NOTES:This bonus episode is a supplement to Conspiracy of Silence (Episode Seven of Telling Jefferson Lies). It provides the audio of the Family Research Council Capitol Tour led by David Barton followed by the the response of 35 historians and social scientists who, in 2013, asked FRC to remove the video from social media. You can watch the original video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzGdHZDXxKITo get the story, listen to the Conspiracy of Silence, episode seven. Written and produced by: Warren ThrockmortonNarrated by: Michael Coulter and Warren ThrockmortonOpening song by Jonus FairClosing song: "Rise" by Dustin BlatnikDustin Blatnik on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/5SK6CsLVrHGckh7EBGavO2Background music by Jonus Fair and Warren ThrockmortonWatch for Jonus Fair coming soon to the digital world. 

After David Barton's book The Jefferson Lies was pulled from publication in August, 2012, some Christian organizations wrote critical articles and publicly distanced themselves from Barton and Wallbuilders. Other groups some were caught off guard. The leaders of these groups knew they had false and misleading material being offered to their constituents, but they didn't make any moves to remove it. This episode examines how two of those organizations, Family Research Council and Focus on the Family, handled the situation. I wish I could say this episode has a happy ending. Ultimately, what began as a conspiracy of silence ended even quieter than it started. From the episode:"What is so important about those stories that the leadership of a Christian organization would decide that deception and gaslighting are good strategies? Where in the manual for running a Christian organization does it say to hide the truth when someone points out that you are spreading misinformation?"Guests today: , Fred W. Beuttler was Deputy Historian of the U. S. House of Representatives from 2005 to 2010.  He currently teaches history and government at The University of Chicago's Graham School for Continuing Liberal and Professional Studies. Jay Case is professor of history at Malone College in Akron Ohio, Jared Burkholder is professor of history at Grace College in Winona Lake, Indiana, Gregg Frazer is Dean of Humanities at The Master's University in Santa Clarita, CA and Katherine Stewart is the author of The Power Worshippers and The Good News Club.SHOW NOTES:Hosted by: Michael Coulter and Warren ThrockmortonWritten and Produced by: Warren ThrockmortonTheme Song: "The World Awaits Us All" by Roman CandleRoman Candle on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/artist/3V65gQpFTfYzIOqjOf18eSClosing Song: "Walking Backwards Down the Stairs" by Larry NormanUsed by permission of Charles Norman and the Larry Norman EstateBackground Music by: Dustin Blatnik, Jonus Fair, Jonathan Swaim, & Warren ThrockmortonHere is more on the Aitken Bible story, including a partial correction by Barton (although he doesn't ever say he was wrong). https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/05/24/david-barton-debunks-himself-regarding-the-aitken-bible/ My blog post on PA v. Chamber - Focus on the Family case. https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/09/09/what-focus-on-the-family-took-out-of-david-bartons-talk/

This is a continuation of last week's episode on whitewashing Jefferson. Today, we specifically take on Barton's contention that Jefferson was a civil rights hero for African Americans and was a strong anti-slavery advocate during his entire life.In fact, after 1784, Jefferson's promising beginning as an opponent of slavery faded away. While he continued to advocate emancipation, he linked it with deportation. He always believed that Blacks and Whites could not live together in one nation. He dedicated himself to the business of slavery and as president, supported the expansion of the American slave trade into Louisiana. Today's episode is hosted by Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter. We are pleased to have Monticello librarian Anna Berkes, historian Troy Jackson, attorney and theologian Joel McDurmon, and author and historian Jemar Tisby join us for this episode.Next week's episode is titled Conspiracy of Silence and deals with fallout from The Jefferson Lies and the response of Family Research Council and Focus on the Family to their awareness that they were promoting false and misleading historical information via their organizations.  SHOW NOTES:This information didn't make it into the podcast but gives an insight into the scope of the American slave trade which was enabled by Thomas Jefferson.In his book, The Problem of Slavery in Christian America, Joel McDurmon also cites the figure of 875,000 slaves marched by slave traders from the Mid-Atlantic states south and west. The following information is also taken from his book. "Thomas R. Dew, who was the president of William and Mary College and a powerful proslavery voice, openly stated in his coauthored The Proslavery Argument: “Virginia is, in fact, a negro raising State for other States; she produces enough for her own supply, and six thousand for sale”—6,000 for sale, that is, every year." We cite a speech by Henry Wiencek in this episode. You can hear the whole speech here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oflCFaMGhF4. His book is Master of the Mountain: Thomas Jefferson and His Slaves Jemar Tisby referred to his book The Color of Compromise in the last episode. Gettingjeffersonright.com - Go here for more information about our book Getting Jefferson Right. 

Why did Thomas Nelson pull David Barton's book The Jefferson Lies from publication in 2012? Last week, we started to answer that question. This week we continue to provide specific illustrations of the historical errors which triggered that unprecedented move by Thomas Nelson. In this episode, we focus on the errors regarding race and slavery. We spend a significant amount of time demonstrating how David Barton deliberately omitted parts of the 1782 Virginia law on manumission. We submit he did this to whitewash Jefferson's record and actions as an enslaver of human beings. Even if this whitewashing was not intentionally racist, the obstruction of the record regarding racism, according to our guests, conspires with people who are racist to maintain a societal environment where racism endures.  In this episode, hosts Michael Coulter and Warren Throckmorton are joined by historian and author Jemar Tisby, historian Troy Jackson, attorney and theologian Joel McDurmon, historian Gregg Frazer, and pastor and social worker Joel Bowman to reflect on the whitewashing of Jefferson. We also hear from pastor Ray McMillian who asks a critical question: Can we eradicate slavery if we have racists as heroes?SHOW NOTES:Michael Nicholls Manumission Pagehttps://libguides.usu.edu/virginia-manumissionsRobert Carter Appreciation Day, August 1.https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/01/august-1-robert-carter-appreciation-day/Theme Song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman CandleClosing Song is Ain't It a Shame to Work on Sunday by the Jubilee QuartetBackground music is provided by Jonus Fair and Warren ThrockmortonTelling Jefferson Lies is written and produced by Warren ThrockmortonFor more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. Note on Virginia laws on manumission: Virginia's legislature did amend them frequently throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. Jefferson's financial situation clearly influenced his ability to emancipate enslaved people. However, that is not the argument Barton made in The Jefferson Lies. We countered the argument he made. In this episode, we demonstrate Barton's effort to whitewash Jefferson's record by making it appear that Jefferson had no choices because Virginia law prohibited emancipation. Of course, after 1782, this was not true.  After Barton was caught doing manipulating the record, he later said that Virginia laws favored emancipation by enslavers who were financially better off. No doubt that is true, but I don't believe that exonerates Jefferson.  If you want to pull white privilege and argue that the desire of a white man for his fine wine, exotic plants, rare books, constant home improvements at Monticello, life free from hard manual labor, and other accoutrements of a Southern enslaver outweighed the natural right of several hundred human beings to be free just because they were African, then I will most certainly judge you accordingly. David Barton praises Jefferson for his donations to Bible societies and purchases of Bibles and religious books with borrowed money. Every purchase of God's Holy Word came at the expense of the dignity and freedom of God's Holy Image Bearers being held captive at Monticello. Selah. 

Since the founding era, Christian nationalists have told and believed myths about the founders and their religious views.  Paul Matzko, historian and researcher with the Cato Institute and Anna Berkes, librarian at Monticello's Jefferson Library talk to me about the persistence of these stories throughout the history of the U.S. Then, I fact-check a fable involving Thomas Jefferson and Daniel Webster which has been lately told by Eric Metaxas and David Barton but has been around since 1858. This is an episode which demonstrates how to examine the context and facts of historical claims. Specifically, I address the claims that Thomas Jefferson told Daniel Webster, "I have always said, and I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."The next regular episode -- Whitewashing Jefferson -- will come out on February 21. There is much more about these fables in our book Getting Jefferson Right. More information about the book is at GettingJeffersonRight.com.Music for today's episode was provided by Jonathan Swaim, Greg Thornbury, the Columbia Quartet, and Warren Throckmorton. 

What was so wrong with The Jefferson Lies that Thomas Nelson decided to pull the book from publication? In this episode, Michael Coulter and Warren Throckmorton start answering that question by pulling  material from their book, Getting Jefferson Right. In this episode, we take long looks into Barton's handling of the Danbury Baptist letter to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson Bible, and a fable about Jefferson and church attendance.  We show how the use of ellipses, second and third-hand sources, and a creative imagination can make historical fiction out of history. SHOW NOTES:The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (The 1820 Jefferson Bible)https://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdfLetter from the Danbury Baptistshttps://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-35-02-0331Letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptistshttps://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-36-02-0152-0006Telling Jefferson Lies is written and produced by Warren Throckmorton. Today's installment was hosted by Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter. The podcast is brought to you by the second edition of Getting Jefferson Right: Fact Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson by Throckmorton and Coulter and available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or just about anywhere books are sold. For more information, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. The next episode Whitewash will post in two weeks on February 21. In the meantime, I plan a bonus episode for sometime next week. Stay tuned for that. Today's closing song is "Ain't It a Shame to Work on Sunday" by the Bethel Jubilee Quartet and written by T.H. Wiseman. Telling Jefferson Lies Theme song is "The World Awaits Us All" by Roman Candle. Background music was provided by Roman Candle and Warren Throckmorton.  I want to acknowledge Right Wing Watch for providing many video clips on YouTube.Please like the podcast and spread the word on social media. Every podcaster says that but it really does help and it makes us feel good too. 

In 2012, only four months after release, publisher Thomas Nelson removed David Barton's book The Jefferson Lies from publication.  Many people blamed or credited a book by Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter titled Getting Jefferson Right for moving the publisher in that direction. What happened?Building on the foundation of the first two episodes, this installment in the Telling Jefferson Lies series provides the backstory to what was an unprecedented event for one of the largest Christian publishers in the nation. Warren Throckmorton interviews many of the people who were involved and supplies his perspective on what happened and why it happened. Interviews with historians Greg Forster, Glenn Sunshine, Gregg Frazer, Glenn Moots, Troy Jackson, David Austin Walsh, journalist Bob Smietana and Getting Jefferson Right co-author Michael Coulter pull back the curtain on an event that exposed the deficits in Christian nationalist story telling. Show Notes:For more information about Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. Telling Jefferson Lies is written and produced by Warren Throckmorton. Today's installment was hosted by Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter. The podcast is brought to you by the second edition of Getting Jefferson Right: Fact Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson by Throckmorton and Coulter and available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop.org or just about anywhere books are sold. For more information, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. Today's closing song is Sparkle by Dustin Blatnik. Telling Jefferson Lies Theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman Candle. Background music was provided by Jonathan Swaim, Dustin Blatnik, Larry Norman and Warren Throckmorton. For more information about Dustin Blatnik, go to www.DustinBlatnik.comFor more music from Roman Candle, go to Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3V65gQpFTfYzIOqjOf18eSAt the end of the series, watch for a playlist of as many songs from the series as I can compile on Spotify and Amazon. Dreams on a Grey Afternoon appears courtesy of Charles Norman and the Larry Norman estate. Please like the podcast and spread the word on social media. Every podcaster says that but it really does help and it makes us feel good too. 

"You know, he is the where's Waldo of the movement. He's a little bit everywhere."  Katherine Stewart, author of Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Christian Nationalism.  "He's managed to create a kind of brand in a way for himself through Wallbuilders of being a trusted authority on the American past." Randall Stephens, professor of American Studies at the University of Oslo in Norway. In this episode, we examine how David Barton bounced back from his early problems and thrived by creating a brand as a trusted authority on American history. His packed schedule of activities and organizations made him indispensable to the Christian right. We also examine what makes the Christian nationalist message so attractive to evangelicals and why many may not care about allegations of bad history or faulty facts. This episode sets up the next episode, The Cataclysm, which will tell what happened to David Barton's book The Jefferson Lies, the book that was pulled from publication by Thomas Nelson after only being out for 4 months. SHOW NOTES:Separation of Church and State website:https://candst.tripod.com/tnpintro.htmA critique of David Barton's views of church and statehttps://bjconline.org/a-critique-of-david-bartons-views-on-church-and-state/Chris Rodda - Liars for Jesushttps://bookshop.org/p/books/liars-for-jesus-the-religious-right-s-alternate-version-of-american-history-vol-1-chris-rodda/7396939?ean=9781523284139Music:Roman Candle on Spotifyhttps://open.spotify.com/artist/3V65gQpFTfYzIOqjOf18eSTheme song: The World Awaits Us All by Roman CandleClosing song: The End of the Street by Roman CandleBackground music: Jonus Fair, Jonathan Swaim, Roman Candle & Warren Throckmorton

In April 2012, Thomas Nelson published The Jefferson Lies, a book about Thomas Jefferson written by David Barton. By August of the same year, the publisher had removed the book from publication. What happened?This series tells that story and so much more. Just over a decade later, the Speaker of the House of Representatives declared his thanks to the same David Barton for his work in history. This series explores how historical revisionism persists even when it can be demonstrated that the facts are not there. First, I provide some context for the current characters. In this initial installment, I go back and pick up the origin story of David Barton and his entrance into Christian nation storytelling. Although he has no academic preparation as a historian, that fact hasn't dissuaded evangelicals from flocking to hear him. As is sometimes the case, evangelicals use religious similarity as a misleading signal of expertise. This sets up the story of how The Jefferson Lies was pulled from publication and the role of Getting Jefferson Right in that event. More broadly, the expert historians and scholars I have interviewed will help us understand the pitfalls of Christian nationalism and the revisionist history which sustains it. Ultimately in the series, I want to explore the remarkable American story of religious pluralism and freedom of conscience. In this episode, Julie Ingersoll, John Fea, Rob Boston,  and Gregg Frazer provide insightful commentary.  Show Notes:Danbury Baptists and the wall of separation (links)The letter from the Danbury Baptist Association to Thomas JeffersonJefferson's letter to the Danbury BaptistsTrends in violent crime (links)American Homicide by Randolph RothLong-term Historical Trends in Violent Crime by Manuel EisnerA crime puzzle: Violent crime declines in America by Claude FischerThe Bible in Schools and Violent Crime by Warren Throckmorton Theme song: The World Awaits Us All - Roman CandleClosing song: The Fight From Me - Greg ThornburyBackground music: Jonathan Swaim, Roman Candle, Warren ThrockmortonI want to thank Mike Cosper for wisdom and advice. I want to thank Greg Thornbury, Roman Candle, and Jonathan Swaim for sharing their advice and talents. 

Telling Jefferson Lies not only documents the role of revisionist history in the maintenance of Christian nationalism, it addresses what Christian nationalism is about.  This weekend seems like a good time to preview that aspect of the series.  The series starts in two weeks with a look at the origin story of America's Premier Historian, followed by an examination of the cataclysm of The Jefferson Lies of 2012. Then we take a look at a brief year long window when evangelical leaders had a choice about what to do with Christian nationalist revisionist history. There always is a choice, but for a brief window of time, evangelical leaders actually took some steps to hold Christian story tellers accountable. However, almost as quickly as the opportunity came, it vanished into the conspiracy of silence that continues until today. The guest speakers on today's preview are Julie Ingersoll, Katherine Stewart, and Paul Matzko. I start us off and finish up. Julie Ingersoll is professor of religious studies at the University of North Florida. She is the author of Building God's Kingdom: Inside the World of Christian Reconstructionism.Katherine Stewart is an investigative reporter and author who has covered religious liberty, politics, policy, and education for over a decade. Her latest book is The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism.Paul Matzko is a historian and research fellow for media studies at the Cato Institute. He is the author of The Radio Right: How a Band of Broadcasters Took on the Federal Government and Built the Modern Conservative Movement.If you haven't listened to the first two trailers, go give them a listen and please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Background music "Debris" by Roman Candle - used by kind permission. 

A brief preview of the upcoming series Telling Jefferson Lies. Telling Jefferson Lies chronicles how history can be hijacked for ideological and political purposes. We begin with the extraordinary story of how David Barton's best-selling book about Thomas Jefferson was pulled from publication due to historical errors. After telling that backstory, some of which has never been disclosed, we described the reaction of the academic and church worlds. How Christian nationalists reacted moves us into a much broader story about the consequences of believing myths and failing to get history right. In the academic world, having a book pulled for reasons relating to errors would be a career-ending event. However, the Thomas Nelson episode barely hindered David Barton and Christian nationalist history. Why is that? In this series, we explore the differences and why the evangelical world can't seem to quit faulty history.  The podcast takes material from the new second edition of the book Getting Jefferson Right by Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter and available at online booksellers and gettingjeffersonright.com.  Subscribe today and watch for additional previews before the anticipated mid-January launch. SHOW NOTESJohn Stonestreet, "Getting Jefferson Right", The Point Blog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka0aFra8RfUMusic by Warren Throckmorton

This is the first teaser/trailer for the podcast series which begins in January, 2024. Show Notes:The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill by Christianity Today, hosted by Mike Cosper, from Episode 11, The Tempest. https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/tempest-mars-hill-driscoll.html.Music by Warren ThrockmortonFor more information about Getting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. When you buy the book, make sure you get the second edition which just came out in 2023.