Podcasts about white christians

David Waldman, Greg Dworkin and Thursday, together again. Nothing else seems to be right in the world, but that makes sense. Sorry Hispanics! Trump Tower Grill has permanently removed the delicious taco bowl off its menu. Trump doesn't want to hear the words “TACO”, nor “chicken”, ever again. He'd prefer you say that he was traitorously devaluing stocks to enrich insiders than to hurt him so. Trump's tariffs have been halted by the “Court of International Trade”, which turns out to be an actual thing. America's trading partners cautiously creep out into the sunlight to see if it's safe. Tariffs might subside, but the damage is permanent. As with Trump 1.0, it's hard to imagine the disaster if these people were competent. House Gop Rep. Mike Flood explains that he's just too stupid to be blamed for this mess. Tariffs aren't the only thing that Trump always chickens out on. Donald's squealing louder about Harvard, because he's starting to be backed up. Elon Musk, who doesn't work at DOGE, is leaving DOGE, which doesn't exist, therefore, he's not really going anywhere. Still, wherever Elon goes, federal money will follow. Elon will go down in history as… well, he won't because he fired all of the historians. Trump wants his henchman Emil Bove, the only guy “alive” who looks more like Stephen Miller than Stephen Miller, to be a federal judge in order to enable him to hench better. Miller presently has several reasons for his long face, one being his wife allegedly running off to “Master Race” with Elon Musk. An ugly future for this world, indeed. Trump ratfucker Ed Martin's new job is weaponizing the DOJ weaponization probes, while also brainstorming new MAGA underworld members to pardon. He's almost run out of Republican congressmen to spring, but that's because Trump has been shutting down investigations before they can become indictments.   Todd Chrisley walks out of prison showing off his “prison bod”, but that isn't the bod that got him pardoned. Woke Okies plan to opt-out of having their kids take part in the state's White-Christian nationalist school curriculum or to even look at the superintendent.

There is no god associated with Christianity.

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For decades, big city mayors have hired public employees based on race. That's illegal but nobody's stopped them. Then Harmeet Dhillon took over the civil rights division at DoJ. (00:00) Intro (01:20) The Grim Reality Dhillon Was Faced With After Entering the DOJ (04:24) The DOJ Lawyers Who Actually Cried After Trump's Election (12:05) Dhillon's Mission to End Discrimination Against White Christian Men (28:32) Is Dhillon Worried About Being Trapped by Deep State Actors? (40:39) The Crimes of Biden's DOJ Paid partnerships with: ExpressVPN: Go to https://ExpressVPN.com/Tucker and find out how you can get 4 months of ExpressVPN free! Policygenius: Head to at https://Policygenius.com/Tucker to see how much you could save Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 800-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ Brad and Dan critique the Trump administration's decision to fast-track the resettlement of 49 white South African refugees while ending protections for thousands of Afghanis. They analyze the impacts of these policies through the lens of white Christian nationalism and systemic racism. They further discuss President Trump's acceptance of a $400 million jet from Qatar, drawing attention to issues of corruption and the national security risks involved. The episode also highlights Oklahoma's new education standards that mandate teaching the 'Big Lie' about the 2020 election and Virginia's decision not to count African American history courses towards graduation requirements, framing these developments as part of a broader, dangerous, and misleading historical narrative. Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163 Check out BetterHelp and use my code SWA for a great deal: www.betterhelp.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There is a disturbing double standard in American asylum politics. While Democrats claim to champion human rights and open borders for vulnerable groups worldwide, they remain conspicuously silent about the white Christian Afrikaner farmers in South Africa — a community facing deadly attacks and deepening persecution. Why does their suffering not spark outrage from the left? Is compassion conditional on skin color or political utility? As President Trump welcomes the persecuted Afrikaner refugees, those in the media lose their minds. When you hear the South African leaders chanting "Kill the Bores, kill the Farmers," you have to wonder how anyone can defend these South African leaders. Plus the mass cover-up of Joe Biden's mental and physical decline is being laid out in a series of new books. What these books really prove is just how devious the main stream media is, as we show you the media lies about Biden in a "then and now, in their own words" expose. Go to http://freegoldguide.com/grant or call 800 458 7356 for your free Colonial Metals Group retirement protection kit – created specifically for our listeners where you can get up to $7500 in free Silver. www.EnergizedHealth.com/Grant www.PatriotMobile.com/Grantwww.Get20Now.comTWC.Health/Grant Use "Grant" for 10% Off See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 800-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ Brad discusses the current trends in Christian nationalism with Kiera Butler of Mother Jones. They talk about Andrew Isker and C.Jay Engel's plans to build a Christian nationalist society in Tennessee, funded by venture capitalists. Isker's antisemitic and anti-Civil Rights Act views are highlighted as they explore the similarities between these Christian enclaves and tech-driven network cities. The discussion includes the impact of recent tragic events at Florida State University and the socio-political implications of such movements. Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163 Check out BetterHelp and use my code SWA for a great deal: www.betterhelp.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Introducing --- $JPROOF Powered by Patriots. $JPROOF is a new form of cryptocurrency like no other. More than a memecoin, $JPROOF is the start of a movement to break free from the Rothschild-run banking cabal that dominates our financial system and every other aspect of modern day life. Utilizing Solana's groundbreaking foundation to power our $JPROOF journey, our token embodies what crypto was always supposed to be. No banks, no private equity firms, no government-sponsored mining operations -- $JPROOF is exclusively owned by me and you. Anchored and fortified by the great Stew Peters himself, $JPROOF presents itself entirely immune from the typical jewish jeetery that the trenches have grown far too familiar with in recent years. This isn't the type of coin you buy, sell, and forget. Buy owning $JPROOF, holders gain access to limitless opportunities -- special offers, giveaways, merchandise, and much, much more! Send a message to the financial parasites of the world. The JEW WORLD ORDER IS OVER. https://jproof.ai   Frankie Stockes joins Stew to discuss the latest round of Israeli a$$-kissing that Trump has been doing, and its dire consequences to our nation. Stew sounds off on black savages like Karmelo Anthony getting praised, rewarded and RICH off of killing white American kids. Watch this new show NOW at https://StewPeters.com! Western civilization has been infected by a parasitic invasion of foreign ideals and values that have been introduced into our culture by strange and morally degenerate people whose goal is world domination. We have been OCCUPIED. Watch the film NOW! https://stewpeters.com/occupied/

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.comWhy do so many Americans believe the U.S. is God's chosen nation? And how did Protestant ideas of martyrdom, land ownership, and war shape the founding of our democracy?In this episode, Will and Josh sit down with Dr. John Fanestil, a United Methodist pastor, historian, and author of American Heresy, to explore the deep roots of white Christian nationalism in early English Protestant colonization. Fanestil traces how ideas about land, race, and theology became embedded in the American story—and how those ideas still echo today, particularly in the rhetoric of political leaders like Donald Trump.From George Washington's land grabs to Jefferson's complex faith, Fanestil offers a compelling look at how Protestant theology shaped America's founding myths—and how nationalism, racism, and religious triumphalism became bitter fruits of that legacy.

When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a sultan.  The palace becomes a circus. – Ancient Turkish Proverb    Clips Played:  The Downfall Of The Romanov Family (youtube.com)    The UnXplained: Rasputin’s Dark Prophecies Revealed (Special) (youtube.com)    Music:  Buffalo Springfield – For What It’s Worth + Lyrics (Stop Hey What’s that […] The post The Gilded Age McKinley & Trump -The Romanov Family Russia History Lies – Lenin and Stalin were Illuminati -Bolshevik Revolution -Planned Genocide of White Christians- White Circassians & Armenian Children on Orphan Trains.  Karl Marx paid by Rothchilds. appeared first on Psychopath In Your Life.

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.comIn recent years, white Christian nationalism has grown from a fringe ideology into a dominant force shaping American politics and religious identity. But what happens when Christianity is weaponized for power rather than justice? In this episode, political host Will Wright and pastor Josh Burtram sit down with Dr. Greg Garrett, Baylor University professor and prolific author, to unpack how white Christian nationalism is driving people—especially younger generations—away from the church.Drawing from decades of research, personal experience, and his work at Baptist News Global, Garrett explores the rise of anti-justice theology, the quantifiable damage to church membership, and how Christians can resist in a Christ-like way. He also reflects on the importance of listening to Black churches, learning from marginalized voices, and reclaiming a Gospel centered on love, humility, and service.Guest Bio:Dr. Greg Garrett is a professor of English at Baylor University and one of America's leading voices on faith, race, and social justice. He is the author of over 25 books, including recent works on James Baldwin and Christian nationalism. He is a regular contributor to Baptist News Global, where he interviews theologians, pastors, and activists shaping the future of the church.

This week we look at the second beast, or the beast of the land. John describes this beast as one that has the appearance of a lamb but the actions of the dragon. From the first century world to our American world, we will examine the rise of Christian Nationalism to see if there are any parallels.

Send us a textSpecial Guest:Aaron Scott, Author of Bring Back Your People: Ten Ways Regular Folks Can Put a Dent in White Christian NationalismQuestion of the Week:How can white people resist and stop Christian nationalism? What is the unique role that white people can play countering the narrative that Christian nationalists assert?Bring Back Your People: Ten Ways Regular Folks Can Put a Dent in White Christian NationalismFor Listening Guides, click here!Got a question for us? Send them to faithpodcast@pcusa.org! A Matter of Faith website

On today's pre-recorded show, host Sara Gabler speaks with two journalists covering religion and American politics, Phoebe Petrovic and Sarah McCammon. The post Reckoning with White Christian Nationalism appeared first on WORT-FM 89.9.

SEND US A MESSAGE! We'd Love to Chat With you and Hear your thoughts! We'll read them on the next episode. Are we allowed to talk about marginalization and white Christians in the same breath? Is that really a thing? Do white-American Christians feel the pressure of the growing racial tension between ethnic subcultures in the country? Are they allowed to ask questions about it? Are Daren and Brandon, as black men, allowed to care? Instead of asking these questions to the culture, the Christian ought to turn to scripture and the answers would be obvious. Though Daren and Brandon may be called uncle toms, coons and the other things...we're not under constant threat of being labeled a racist - a tension our white brothers and sisters are constantly experiencing. This is UNDOUBETLDY a contentious conversation and we don't care. We brought on an OG listener, Alissa Hollander, who is a sister in Christ and is becoming a good friend to discuss the growing difficulties of being a white-American who loves the Lord...and isn't racist. Support the showPlease Rate & Comment!Hosts: Brandon and Daren SmithWebsite: www.blackandblurred.comPatreon: www.patreon.com/blackandblurredPaypal: https://paypal.me/blackandblurredYouTube: Black and Blurred PodcastIG: @BlackandBlurredPodcastX: @Blurred_Podcast

My guest this week is Kat Grant a Wisconsin based attorney, activist, legal educator, and author of the new blog TransingBoundaries, which focuses on the intersections of law, politics, religion, and queerness. Kat recently finished up an Equal Justice Works Fellowship at the Freedom From Religion Foundation, where they exclusively worked on the White Christian nationalist attack on LGBTQIA+ rights. Tragically and ironically, their fellowship was sort of capped off with a revealing debacle originating from an article they wrote for FFRF entitled “What is a woman?”. Along with discussing that debacle, we discuss their experiences working on trans issues in secular spaces more boadly and how their preference for restorative justice shapes their approach to social justice work.What is a Woman?: https://freethoughtnow.org/what-is-a-woman/I Am Not Interested in Making Bigots Comfortable: https://substack.com/home/post/p-153702335Biology is Not Ethics: https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/biology-is-not-ethics-a-responseMusic by GW RodriguezEditing by Adam WikSibling Pod:Philosophers in Space: https://0gphilosophy.libsyn.com/Support us at Patreon.com/EmbraceTheVoidIf you enjoy the show, please Like and Review us on your pod app, especially iTunes. It really helps!This show is CAN credentialed, which means you can report instances of harassment, abuse, or other harm on their hotline at (617) 249-4255, or on their website at creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org.Next Episode: Biology and Bigotry with Ed Buckner

Top headlines for Friday, January 3, 2025In this episode, a recent survey uncovers the strong support President-elect Donald Trump received from white Christians and Hispanic Protestants, raising questions about the significant role religion plays in political alignment. Meanwhile, a Texas federal judge has issued an order for the Biden administration to halt the sale of border wall materials, a move highlighting the contentious policy shifts as Trump prepares to take office. We also explore the God gap present among members of the incoming 119th Congress, despite the dominance of Protestants and Catholics in both parties.Subscribe to this PodcastApple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle PodcastsOvercast⠀Follow Us on Social Media@ChristianPost on TwitterChristian Post on Facebook@ChristianPostIntl on InstagramSubscribe on YouTube⠀Get the Edifi AppDownload for iPhoneDownload for Android⠀Subscribe to Our NewsletterSubscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and ThursdayClick here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning!⠀Links to the NewsMost white Christians, Hispanic Protestants backed Trump: poll | PoliticsBiden admin. ordered to stop selling border wall materials | PoliticsNew Orleans attack terrorist acted alone, was inspired by ISIS | U.S.Bear Grylls faces criticism for calling Mary Palestinian refugee | EntertainmentUN office suggests 'unsafe abortions' count as 'femicide' | Politics‘God gap' among GOP, Democrats increases in 119th Congress | PoliticsTony Evans' son says ministry revelation was 'punch to the gut' | Church & Ministries

In this TALKS Episode, Tim engages with Rev Darrell Hamilton to explore the significance of Christmas through the lens of the Black Christian tradition. They discuss the rich history of churches in New England, the implications of the virgin birth, and the contrasting understandings of Jesus and the Christ. The conversation emphasizes the gospel's message for marginalized communities and the importance of reclaiming the spiritual meaning of Christmas amidst consumerism. In this conversation, Tim and his guest explore the themes of justice, responsibility, and the role of faith in addressing societal issues. Darrell's Instagram | @blackandeducatedpreacher 02:52 Exploring Christmas Through the Black Christian Tradition 10:50 The Significance of the Virgin Birth 19:19 The Gospel's Message for the Marginalized 24:12 Reclaiming the Spiritual Meaning of Christmas 26:32 The Call for Justice and Responsibility 32:43 Navigating the Tension of Violence and Nonviolence 42:12 Making Room for Jesus in Our Lives 50:50 Listening and Learning in Solidarity _______________________________ If you'd like to support our work, you can DONATE here! Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Subscribe On YouTube @thenewevangelicals The New Evangelicals exists to support those who are tired of how evangelical church has been done before and want to see an authentic faith lived out with Jesus at the center. We are committed to building a caring community that emulates the ways of Jesus by reclaiming the evangelical tradition and embracing values that build a better way forward. If you've been marginalized by your faith, you are welcome here. We've built an empathetic and inclusive space that encourages authentic conversations, connections and faith. Whether you consider yourself a Christian, an exvangelical, someone who's questioning your faith, or someone who's left the faith entirely, you are welcome here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.comThis episode of Faithful Politics takes a deep dive into the impact of white Christian nationalism on American democracy with Robert P. Jones, president of PRRI (Public Religion Research Institute). Host Will Wright and Jones analyze the pivotal role white Christians played in the 2024 election, drawing from Jones's Time Magazine article, “What White Christians Have Wrought,” and his latest book, The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy and the Path to a Shared American Future. The conversation traces the historical and cultural forces that have shaped white Christian political allegiance, explores the divide between religious and racial groups in voting behavior, and examines how Trump's continued support reflects deeper systemic challenges. This episode provides a candid look at the intersection of faith, politics, and social identity, highlighting what's at stake for the future of pluralistic democracy.What White Christians Have Wrought: https://time.com/7174260/white-christianity-trump-election-essay/Why Christian Democrats Are Seen as the “Wrong Kind” of Christian: https://open.substack.com/pub/faithfulpolitics/p/why-christian-democrats-are-seen?r=1bt7sx&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=webThe Hidden Roots of White Supremacy: and the Path to a Shared American Future: https://a.co/d/3jLsPfQRobert P. Jones is the president and founder of Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). He is the author of the New York Times bestseller The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy and the Path to a Shared American Future (published September 5, 2023), as well as White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity, which won a 2021 American Book Award. He is also the author of The End of White Christian America, which won the 2019 Grawemeyer Award in Religion.Jones writes regularly on politics, culture, and religion for The Atlantic, TIME, Religion News Service, and other outlets. He is frequently featured in major national media, such as CNN, MSNBC, NPR, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and others. Jones writes a weekly newsletter for those dedicated to the work of truth-telling, repair, and healing from the legacy of white supremacy in AmerPlease consider a donation, it would help a lot! https://donorbox.org/faithful-politics-podcast Support the showPlease Help Support the showhttps://donorbox.org/faithful-politics-podcastTo learn more about the show, contact our hosts, or recommend future guests, click on the links below: Website: https://www.faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/ Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Political Host: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Twitter: @FaithfulPolitik Instagram: faithful_politics Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast LinkedIn: faithfulpolitics Subscribe to our Substack: https://faithfulpolitics.substack.com/

White Christian nationalism's influence on US elections reflects complex intersections of religion, race, and politics. Robert P. Jones examines how faith communities, particularly white evangelicals, show strong support for Trump while highlighting concerning trends in political polarization and extremist rhetoric. The discussion emphasizes the importance of local engagement and understanding in addressing these challenges to democracy. Miracle Made: For 40% off high-quality self-cooling sheets plus an extra 20% off with 3 free towels, use promo code GREENROOM when you go to trymiracle.com/greenroom HelloFresh: Get 10 free meals applied across 7 boxes as a new subscriber when you go to hellofresh.com/freegreenroom

This is an updated episode from season 2.To acquire racial righteousness, Latasha Morrison has given white people a guide to train them to decenter their whiteness and divest themselves of the original sin of white supremacy that all white people inherited. This guide titled Be the Bridge 101: Foundational Principles Every White Bridge Builder Needs to Understand, is required reading for all white people who decide to enter either the Be The Bridge Facebook group or a small group discussion group. This guide is what we have been looking at and today we will go over the 3rd principle that the creators of Be the Bridge 101 wish to educate white bridge builders on: Overcoming our White Fragility. But what is White Fragility? What does it look like when a white person exhibits white fragility? What does Be the Bridge believe about white people by training them to overcome white fragility, and is that belief possibly a racist belief itself?May this episode expose the false teaching entering the church and bring glory to God. To access the podcast, blog, and other resources go to the Thoroughly Equipped website @ ⁠ttew.org⁠ Follow me on Facebook & Instagram:https://www.facebook.com/TEWMelbaToast ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/thoroughlyequipped316/ ⁠ Christian Podcast Community: ⁠ Christianpodcastcommunity.org⁠ Striving For Eternity Ministries: https://strivingforeternity.org/

This is an updated episode from season 2.To acquire racial righteousness, Latasha Morrison has given white people a guide to train them to decenter their whiteness and divest themselves of the original sin of white supremacy that all white people inherited. This guide titled Be the Bridge 101: Foundational Principles Every White Bridge Builder Needs to Understand, is required reading for all white people who decide to enter either the Be The Bridge Facebook group or a small group discussion group. This guide is what we have been looking at and today we will go over the 3rd principle that the creators of Be the Bridge 101 wish to educate white bridge builders on: Overcoming our White Fragility. But what is White Fragility? What does it look like when a white person exhibits white fragility? What does Be the Bridge believe about white people by training them to overcome white fragility, and is that belief possibly a racist belief itself?May this episode expose the false teaching entering the church and bring glory to God. To access the podcast, blog, and other resources go to the Thoroughly Equipped website @ ⁠ttew.org⁠ Follow me on Facebook & Instagram:https://www.facebook.com/TEWMelbaToast ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/thoroughlyequipped316/ ⁠ Christian Podcast Community: ⁠ Christianpodcastcommunity.org⁠ Striving For Eternity Ministries: https://strivingforeternity.org/

Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 700-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ Los Angeles Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/1027970416187?aff=oddtdtcreator San Diego Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/1030505227877?aff=oddtdtcreator Dr. Liliana Mason is faculty at Johns Hopkins University and author of Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our Identity. In a new article, Activating Animus: The Uniquely Social Roots of Trump Support, she and her co-authors show that “Trump's support is thus uniquely tied to animus toward minority groups.” She provides key takeaways fro this study: “First, the people who really like Trump in 2018 are the same ones who really disliked Blacks, Muslims, LGBT+, and Hispanics in 2011. It's NOT THE SAME for the GOP in general, or even for Ryan or McConnell. Trump is drawing on this particular group of people to a unique degree.The new MAGA/anti-MAGA conflict is not an entirely partisan one. It's about white Christian supremacy versus a fully multi-racial democracy. And it's not happening for anyone on the Democratic side. Hating Christians and White people doesn't predict favorability toward any Democratic figures or the Democratic Party. So it isn't “anti-White racism” (whatever that means) motivating the left. It's not “both sides.” This means that there is a faction in American politics that has moved from party to party, can be recruited from either party, and responds especially well to hatred of marginalized groups. They're not just Republicans or Democrats, they're a third faction that targets parties. Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163 Check out BetterHelp and use my code SWA for a great deal: www.betterhelp.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Donald Trump has suggested God has chosen him to lead the U.S., an idea that is striking a chord with white Christian nationalists. Author and religious scholar Bradley Onishi explains the role that group plays in shaping U.S. politics — and the looming election.

Trump and the much of the far right have perverted traditional Christian values. In this episode Rick is joined by Jim Wallis, theologian and author of The False White Gospel, to discuss the rise of Christian nationalism in the U.S. Wallis explores how this movement has distorted Christianity for political power, particularly under Donald Trump, and the dangers it poses to American democracy. They discuss the history of white Christian nationalism, its contrast with the inclusive teachings of Jesus, and the importance of reclaiming faith from political agendas to refound democracy on true spiritual values. Jim's book, The False White Gospell, available now. Timestamps: (00:01:39) The False White Gospel (00:03:50) The Christian nationalist movement (00:12:20) Faith without politics Follow Resolute Square: Instagram Twitter TikTok Find out more at Resolute Square Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Pastor Jenna takes the stage this Sunday and talks through the difficult reality facing our current political and religious climate. She brings attention to the language and ideology of white christian nationalism and how it finds itself at odds with scripture and the way Jesus held power.

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Debbie continues our series on White Christian nationalism with a return to the basics: affirming the image of God in everyone.

Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 600-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ In this episode of Straight White American Jesus, Brad dives into PRRI's 2023 Census of American Religion with Dr. Robert P. Jones, author of The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy. Together, they break down the ongoing decline of White Christian America, the growing number of younger people who are religiously unaffiliated, and the stark differences between the religious demographics of the Democratic and Republican parties. They dig into how these demographic shifts are shaping the culture and politics of the country, offering key insights into the religious and racial trends transforming the U.S. today. Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163 This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/RC and get on your way to being your best self. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jim Wallis, the founding Director of the Georgetown University Center on Faith and Justice, discusses his book, The False White Gospel: Rejecting Christian Nationalism, Reclaiming True Faith, and Refounding Democracy. He argues that the civic promotion of fear, hate, and violence as the trajectory of our politics under a banner of Christian Nationalism, should be […]

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Today, our episode's all about discipleship around political engagement, based on a series of Bible studies Jonathan and his team at his real job recently created for this election season and beyond. Some points we hit:-        Why it is essential for our political action to understand  we were not created for this world-        Why followers of Jesus won't overemphasize the importance of political victories and losses-        The reality that we are all connected to each other and God desires everyone's political liberation-        And, after that discussion, we dive into a recommendation from one of our recent newsletters on the fallout from Israel's torture of Hamas operativesCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript Introduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jonathan Walton: If we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I'm Sy Hoekstra. I'm so excited about what we're gonna be talking about today. We have concluded our series of interviews with authors from the anthology that we published in 2020 about Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. For the next several five or six episodes until the election, you will be hearing more from the two of us. We'll probably have a couple more interviews, but it will not be from those authors. But today, we are jumping into something that I think is very core to what we do at KTF Press. We're talking about political discipleship and how the ways that some stuff that we maybe in some churches relegate to the realm of personal salvation, like the incarnation and the death and resurrection of Jesus, actually have a whole lot to say about how we engage politically. But before we get to all of that, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Remember, if you like what you hear and what you read from KTF Press, and would like for it to continue beyond this election season, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and encourage your friends to subscribe as well. We've got a ways to go if we're gonna have enough people to sustain this work, but we believe this work is valuable for us and for you, and so we hope that you do too. Go to KTFPress.com, that'll get you the bonus episodes of this show, access to monthly Zoom chats with the two of us and more, but only if you are subscribed. So again, go to KTFPress.com, subscribe today.The Bible Studies Jonathan's Team Created about Christian Political EngagementSy Hoekstra: All right. So Jonathan, this conversation is actually coming from some work that you are doing in your regular job with InterVarsity. First of all, remind people what you do with InterVarsity [laughter], and then tell people about these resources that you've produced and kind of what the goal of them is.Jonathan Walton: So I'm a Senior Resource Specialist with InterVarsity. And what that looks like is when there are some significant problems, then those things get sent up to the discipleship and leadership team to think about, and one of the things in our sandbox is political discipleship. And so for the last six months, we've been working on a curriculum that folks will be able to use to not just see and seek Jesus during this election season, but actually be formed into people who can see Jesus on the seat in our image as a seat of a stool with three legs, and on the seat. The Lord over our feelings, over our thoughts, over our actions, is Jesus. And so this five part Bible study really leans into that and prayerfully will push people to make that decision, to say, “Oh yes, if I'm a follower of Jesus, then my orthopathy, my orthodoxy and my orthopraxy will be under the Lordship of Jesus.”Sy Hoekstra: You just said three big words. I think a lot of people know that orthodoxy kind of means right belief, and orthopraxy kind of means right practiceJonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: Orthopathy, what does that mean?Jonathan Walton: Orthopathy, which most of us function on is our feelings and passions. So what does it look like for us to actually say, “I feel uncomfortable, I feel afraid, I feel sad.” And instead of acting out of that feeling and then forming a theology that justifies our actions that were based on our feelings of fear or anxiety or discomfort or loss of control, we actually said, “Oh, I feel afraid of this,” or “I feel uncomfortable about this, but I can actually put that fear, that discomfort, that anger, under the seat of Jesus,” and be able to have our thoughts and actions be in line with the kingdom of God, and not just in line with our deepest wounds or whims.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, so that is some helpful context. You have created these Bible studies as part of your job as a resource developer, and we will have links to those Bible studies that are available for free online. So if you wanna do a five session Bible study with a small group or whatever, you can go get Jonathan's stuff and talk about politics with your small group, which I think everybody should be doing right now [laughter], at least if you live in the United States. Not everybody that listens to the show is in the United States, but for all the Americans, go do that, please. Oh, and actually, sorry you didn't write these. You were part of the team that developed these.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The actual writing was done by other people, but you were very involved in the process.We Were Not Created for This World, and That Affects Our PoliticsSy Hoekstra: So let's get into one of the main ideas here, which I think is, let's talk about some of the implications of the idea that we were not created for the world that we live in. This is kind of a big deal I think, in your thinking, and I would like you to tell us what, first of all, what kind of world were we created for, and then what does that imply for our politics?We Were Created for a World Where Everything Existed in HarmonyJonathan Walton: One of the things that gets lost in most of our theology about the quote- unquote, fall is that we don't engage as much with what the world could have looked like if we had not, quote- unquote, fallen. And so I like to think about every possible thing in the world that is broken and not working well, what if it had been working just fine? So let's imagine for a moment that work, like Adam and Eve in the Garden doing the stuff, was good. Like work was good. Let's imagine for a moment that a man never blamed the problem on a woman, and a woman never blamed the problem on the man. Let's imagine a world free of shame, jealousy, deceit and blaming. Let's lean into that slim window in Scripture and that slim window and stories that were passed down for generations, and generations where there was no deceit.We could know one another and be known. We could forgive, because I don't imagine that no one got hurt, but I imagine though, is people were quick to forgive and quick to ask for forgiveness. To be able to live in harmony with the world, that includes that big Shalom theology, where there's peace in me, there's peace between me and others, there's peace between me and creation, there's peace between me and God. There's reconciliation, there's Shalom there. And so since we do not have that world, the world that we currently live in is one that we will have constant dissonance with.We Must Be People Who Rejoice When Empires FallJonathan Walton: So fast forward all the way to Revelation 18,19, and 20, when quote unquote, Babylon, or the Empire is destroyed.And there are people that are weeping over Babylon, and there are people that are rejoicing that Babylon has been destroyed. Followers of Jesus need to be in the camp that says we are rejoicing that Babylon is destroyed. Hallelujah, salvation and glory be unto our God. If we are those people that say, “Ah, you know what? We're so sad that all the spices and all the products and all the slaves are no longer being brought to our shores to serve us,” then you suffer under the judgment of God. The judgment of God says these systems are unjust. A lot of followers of Jesus and other folks don't like to talk about the judgment of God, but I will be honest, I am totally fine talking about the judgment of God when talking about destroying unjust systems and structures in the world [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like Jesus, let that come as quickly as possible. So in Amos via Martin Luther King, how most people recognize it, let justice roll down like a mighty stream. That's what we are talking about. When these systems of injustice and violence are washed away. We were not made to be exploited or to exploit other people. We were not made to dominate, destroy, rule and violate. That's not what it is. And so that's what I mean when we say we should have dissonance with this world that we are in because we were not made for this nonsense that we experience regularly.Sy Hoekstra: And then our politics should reflect that dissonance.We Should Not Be Seduced by ColonialismJonathan Walton: Yes. Our politics should reflect that dissonance, and what we should not do is be seduced by coloniality. And here's what I mean by that. Aníbal Quijano, who was a Peruvian sociologist and scholar on coloniality, talked about the seduction of European colonialism, such as that, even though you take colonialism away, we cannot imagine ourselves independent of that colonized structure being in place. And so if we look around the world, the sun never set on the British Empire in that way, there are entire people groups including Black people in the United States, who it's very difficult to imagine life outside of the stratified, segregated society that we find ourselves in.And so for me, I think when we think about our political systems, and we talked about this before on the podcast, one of the things we need a radical revolution of is imagination. Like to be able to imagine a different way of share, like mutual aid, reciprocity. Being able to say, “You know, what? What if I'm not a wage earner in a society, I am still valuable.” Sy, you've talked about this in your essays about disability. Like, what would it look like for us not to see the CEO and the kid with down syndrome as equally valuable for God, even though one of them contributes more to the GDP, like we need to lean into that. And so when we make decisions in politics, we actually need to wrestle with that dissonance as opposed to trying to impose a perfect will in an imperfect world, because it will not exist or come to pass.We Should Always Be Unsatisfied with Political Outcomes, and Be Aware We Don't Control ThemSy Hoekstra: Yeah. So I think one of the things that you and I have talked about that is basically how we will almost always be unsatisfied with the decisions and the activity that we engage in in politics.Jonathan Walton: Yes, and that is okay [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly. Right. That's part of it. You should be that way, is what we're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You shouldn't be someone who votes wholeheartedly like, what I'm rejecting right now is people who are just like, “Yes, Trump is God's man. We're with him 100 percent. He's gonna do all the stuff we need him to do.” There isn't really a Christian equivalent to that on the left, or I would reject that as well, if anyone was saying that same thing with that same level of fervor about Kamala Harris [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: But well, we'll talk about how there is still some idolatry on the left, but we'll get into that nuance in a second. I just want to emphasize this point, that it's the lack of satisfaction with our votes and the lack of satisfaction with outcomes of activism isn't just what you should expect, it's reflecting a reality in a good way [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: That you are not… you know what I mean? You're always going to feel that tension because you were made to be loved and treated with justice and kindness and generosity and to do the same for others, and that is fundamentally not how our system ever works.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: We will know that we don't have control over the systems that we have. We should know that [laughs]. We should go into our political engagement with that in the front of our minds, that we don't control the outcomes, and we shouldn't be surprised when they don't come out exactly the way we want them to. But again, when we were talking about this, another thing you pointed out was we also don't have control over God and how God affects the outcomes that God wants to affect [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We don't know how that's going to happen. So a political loss for us does not necessarily mean anything about God or God's plans, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that is kind of the hopeful other side of that coin that I was just talking about. And that doesn't mean by the way, that we don't make clear decisions in certain contexts and be like, “No, this person is absolutely better than this person.” I have no problem saying that. You know what I mean? I feel like sometimes when you talk about being a citizen of the kingdom, there's a lot of like, especially White Christians, who will say that kind of means that we should never really judge anybody's choices at all [laughter], and I fully disagree with that [laughs], because in a given context, someone can be much better than somebody else. They're just not perfect.We Should Want to Make Things Better in Small Ways and Do as Little Harm as PossibleJonathan Walton: Well, the only other thing I'll say, and this actually may apply to later questions in the conversation as well. But I had a conversation, I was one of the keynote speakers for the Community Boost nonprofit leaders conference this week. And one of the speakers, she was on the panel I was moderating, her name is Jennifer Jones Austin. She's the Executive Director of the Federation of Protestant Welfare organizations in New York City.Sy Hoekstra: Gotcha.Jonathan Walton: She used to have a position in corrections in New York City as an advocate [laughs]. She said, “It is my job in this space,” holding her faith in all these things she possibly can, she said “This system is toxic, it's broken, it is terrible, and in so much as I can, I will prevent all harm that I can. And if I also could do incrementally better, then I will do that, knowing full well that this is not the kingdom of God, and I will be wholly dissatisfied with all the things, even the progress, quote- unquote, progress that I'm able to make.” And I think that is a sobering embrace of the realities of where we stand as followers of Jesus who are able to and in so far as we are willing to actually participate in the change of the systems and structures that we are in.So that's Priscilla with education. She is going to [laughs], in Jesus name, do as little harm as she possibly can and make as much progress, quote- unquote, progress as she possibly can.Sy Hoekstra: This is your wife, who's the principal of a school for people who don't know.Jonathan Walton: Yes, and I've recognized also that this is me within InterVarsity, an evangelical organization in the United States that fully participates in the system of this country. Like philanthropy is broken, giving is broken. We all know these systems will not usher in the kingdom of God. At the same time, we are called to participate and reflect the kingdom of God as best as we can. And so I think as we vote, as we enter in, as you were saying, we do not have control over the system, we do not have control over God, but we do control if we are obedient to him and faithfully wrestle with what it looks like to follow him in context. Because, as Munther Isaac, Palestinian theologian, prophet, amazing person said, a theology without context is irrelevant, and we are doing our best to live out of theology in our context.Sy Hoekstra: Both of us saw him speak last week, or I guess when you're hearing this, it'll be two weeks ago at Riverside Church, and it was incredible. And one or two of the things Jonathan has said so far, are certainly inspired by Reverend Isaac. If you look at our newsletter from the 23rd you can watch the entire talk on YouTube. It's incredible. I really suggest everyone does it. When Jonathan says he's a prophet, that's not…Jonathan Walton: Oh, I'm not joking. Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: It's not an exaggeration. It's like the word prophet is something that gets thrown around a lot, and it can be grandiose when you apply to certain people. This man fits the bill [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Why Christians Shouldn't Overemphasize Political Wins and LossesSy Hoekstra: Okay, so let's get into another point that we were talking about that I think is important when it comes to political discipleship, especially in this moment of heightened tension in the election. Which is there are so many ways that understanding yourself as a citizen of the kingdom of God makes you less likely to overemphasize political victories and losses. And you can err to one side in the way that Trump does, which is what I was talking about before, or the way that Trump supporters do, where they can say, “Trump being elected will basically be our political salvation [laughs]. We will be fine. Our power will be given back to us the way that we deserve, our enemies shall be defeated,” etcetera, etcetera.But like I also said, there are ways that the left does this and there are ways that the right does this when it's not Trump and we're not in a sort of cult of personality situation. So can you talk to us about what overemphasizing political victories and losses looks like, and why understanding the kingdom helps you avoid doing that, making that mistake?Our Hope Is Not in Political Victories or Material ProsperityJonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the way the right predominantly does this is using salvific language like, “We are going to save you.” And so there's this identification alliance with right wing rapture theology that says, we just need to be redeemed from the world or going back to something that is more holy, just, beautiful, righteous and good. Usually for White evangelicals, that's around 1958. 1958 was the peak of White evangelical and White American leadership and ownership of all these different things in the United States. And so that reality that many people in the current day White evangelical movement are trying to get back to. 1958 also signals what the left tries to do.1958 was the advent of the civil rights movement coming into the mainstream of the United States when Martin Luther King wrote, when White evangelicals in the United States had to contend with Martin Luther King. So Jerry Falwell writing, segregation or not, like which is it, and then doubling down on segregation. But from 1958 you can begin to see this surging of the rights of women being talked about, the rights of people of color being talked about. Then you get into quote- unquote, the sexual revolution, feminist revolution of the 70s and 80s, like music changing into a way that there's television, things to be broadcast. Folks being shocked that the people they listen to on the radio are people of color, like you start to get this change [laughs].And so what the right says is salvation, the left says is progress. And so pastors and people who push towards more progressivism and politicians who don't read in context like to pull out that piece when Martin Luther King says, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. We take that out, and basically what that does is a soft baptism of generational superiority. Meaning that I'm better than the last generation, and the generation after me will be better, when scripture does not say that. Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. There have always been people fighting against slavery, oppression, abuse and violence, and there have always been people who are trying to impose those systems, whether they be the Roman government or the American government or the Spartans or the Cretans, it doesn't matter who it is.This has always been the same argument and fight. The Nazis before, the Americans today, Israelis one day, slaveholders another day, Palestinians one day, enslaved Africans another day. The reality is this has always been going back and forth. The invitation has always been the same, to follow Jesus. That's the invitation. There isn't a like, “Man, you know what? In 1950, it was really bad.” That's what progressives would say, “But we've come a long way, and we're continuing forward, onward and upward.” And then conservatives would say, “Oh, man, you know it used to be this way. Let me go back to my little town and…” but both of those are salvation narratives that actually don't leave us saved. They don't. Jesus is the only way.They don't leave us saved, because the salvation of Jesus is ultimate and all encompassing at once. The quote- unquote, safety that moral progressivism or conservatism offers us is for a few, for moments in time. The only thing in my estimation, as an individual that has read a little bit and prayed a lot is the only thing that has been as pervasive and adopted by so many people is colonialism. The idea of White supremacy, the idea that we need to exploit and violate, the idea that we need to extract as much as possible and we deserve to accumulate at an unfettered pace, that is pervasive across cultures, backgrounds and narratives. That has been carried everywhere even more so than the gospel.And so I would hope that the salvation of all things through Christ would be as comprehensive and fierce as the salvation through works. So it's life, liberty and pursuit of property slash our own comfort equals happiness, or take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, they are fundamentally opposed to each other.Sy Hoekstra: That was good and deep, and I love it. Let me drill down for a second on the progressivism, because I think some people would hear you say, and you've explained this a little bit, but I mean, some people hear you say, things haven't gotten better, or things took off in some fundamental and helpful way in the 60s, that that's not something that we should think of as salvation. And they might kind of go, “What does he mean by that? I don't know. That's a little…” Because I know you are saying things have gotten better.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: Like, obviously, there are people who materially did a whole lot better [laughs] after the Civil Rights Movement.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Absolutely. Right.Sy Hoekstra: But what you are saying is, when you are clear-eyed about the amount of harm that the hierarchies and systems of oppression do in this country globally, there are so many things to be concerned about and so many things to deeply lament that the true and good and incredible thing that Black people can vote now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, me and you can have this conversation [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, all those kinds of things. Those things are incredible and should be celebrated, and there are just so many other things that are so wrong and terrible.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You're just being clear-eyed about the world as it is.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Because you can do that, because you're not looking toward a narrative of progressivism to assure you that you are okay.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes. The fundamental container that you and I find ourselves in has improved. That's true.Sy Hoekstra: You and I, like meaning literally you and I.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, me and you. Literally, Sy Hoekstra and Jonathan Walton, the container that we find ourselves in has improved since the lives of our parents. My momma was not born with all of her rights, I was born with all of mine, to an extent in this country. That container has gotten better. The container is still on this side of heaven, which means it's incomplete.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So can I celebrate, and I do celebrate, the reality that I could go to a bank and get a mortgage and it would be illegal if they discriminated against me and my wife for being people of color, that is awesome. I can celebrate the fact that my wife can get a credit card in her own name, and my daughters will be able to as well. That was something that was illegal. go look it up. I appreciate that. At the same time, let me not be seduced to think that this is the container I was made for because I wasn't. I was made for Genesis 1.Sy Hoekstra: Or seduced into a kind of softer, subtler idolatry of America.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Or the West, or the societies that we live in, or wealth, or whatever it is that you think has made things more comfortable for you.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Good Political Fruit that Comes with Putting Hope in JesusSy Hoekstra: The reason I spent so much time on that is it's a complicated idea, but I think it's important for people to understand, because it really does free you from the problems that inevitably come when you sort of think, let's say Harris gets elected. We're just like, “Oh, good. We staved off Trump, we beat back fascism. We defeated it, hooray.” [laughs] It stops you from looking at the long history of America and saying no, fascism, authoritarianism, like real oppression of people is a normal part of the DNA of this country, and will continue to come back, and we need to continue to be ready to fight it all the time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It does not ever go away, and if you want to sit in comfort and say, “Good, we finally did it,” or “I can rest now,” you can't. You're being seduced into something that is not true [laughter]. And also, being clear-eyed in this way also stops you from doing something that people complain about progressives doing all the time, which is show up to your door every four years or every two years, and ask for your vote, and then not do anything to actually fight the oppression that you're under on a daily basis once they're elected [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: If you're clear-eyed in this way, you can fight for people's flourishing 365 days a year…Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …and every year. What I'm just doing now is talking about some of the good fruit that comes from letting go of these sort of soft political idols that sometimes people have. Because, I think… And the reason I say soft political idols, they're just political idols, but I think people look at the obviousness and the brazenness of the way that people idolize Trump and Christian power in America, and they think, “I'm not doing that in any similar way,” and a lot of us actually are.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's why I'm harping on this.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And two sentences that I hope will help people as well, is that the reason we're saying this too is because what will drive you is actually hope in the right stuff, as opposed to ending up with putting, literally, for me, like my hope in Obama. I remember the posters, like I was excited.Sy Hoekstra: Do you remember that music video?Jonathan Walton: Which one? There were many.Sy Hoekstra: The “Yes We Can” music video.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I do remember that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. I remember that in particular, I remember you being so excited and emotional about that video, and then later coming back to me and being like, “I should not have cared about that video that much,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. But man, it is attractive. Like Lil Jon at the DNC right now is there to seduce a certain group of people [Sy laughs]. And Kid Rock is just, let's swap out Kid Rock. Kid Rock was at the RNC. We have to engage, like you said, clear-eyed, so we know what to put our hope in. Because the gospel is a hope that does not disappoint.What Is God's Good News about Politics, and How Can We Apply It to Our Lives?Sy Hoekstra: Amen to that, Jonathan [Jonathan laughs]. But let's talk about the hope that does not disappoint, because I think the stuff that we've been talking about, if you just stopped there would be a little bit, I don't know, it can be a little bit depressing. If you don't already have this perspective [laughs] it's like, it can be hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It can be hard to deal with being clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, it's not an easy thing to do [Jonathan laughs]. So let's talk about what actually is the good news about politics that you are trying to get people to see through, through these Bible studies and through this kind of work that you're doing.Question Your Assumptions, and Understand the Connectedness of All PeopleJonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean to what you just said, if we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world. And so I think that one, the first session is just what are our starting points? Most of us have been cultured into political discipleship, we've never actually consciously thought about it. And so that's the first part, just where are our starting points? Then we get into the reality that the theology of the kingdom of God, and the theology that we are all made in God's image is a political reality.If I believe that I am made in the image of God, and every single person around me is made in the image of God, then that has political implications, because my flourishing and their suffering, or my suffering and their flourishing, they are actually intertwined. If I actually live out that theology, when they bleed, I bleed, when I bleed, they bleed. That's why the command to mourn with those who mourn is not, it shouldn't be far off, because I'm mourning my own human family, or I'm rejoicing with my own human family. And so that first study gets into that, and then we have, each study has a real-life story, and each study has a testimony about how these things have been applied or wrestled with in the current day.Making Informed Decisions about Whether We Want to Seek God's LiberationAnd so when we get into the choices that the Israelites made in Samuel, they wanted a king. Wrestling with that, oh snap, the Israelites literally said to the Prophet Samuel, we want to be like everybody else.Sy Hoekstra: And sorry, just really quickly for people who are unfamiliar, there's a moment in the book of 2 Samuel, I think, where Israel goes from saying, “We don't want to just be this people of God who kind of live in this promised land and follow these instructions that God gave us, we want to have a king,” which was not part of like God's plan for their society, “The way that all the societies around us have a king, so that we can have kind of similar power and influence the way that they do.”Jonathan Walton: Exactly. And so when Samuel responds, he says, “Your king will be exploitative. Your king will violate. Your king will take your kids. Your king will do all these things.” And they say, “Yes, sign us up.” And so we need to have conversations about what will actually happen when we say, “Yes, we do want this,” instead of what God intends. And then make concrete decisions about, do we actually want that, and what are the implications? And then if we do decide to follow Jesus, then what does he do and what is his response. When Jesus shows up and says, “I am the Messiah,” out of Isaiah, chapter 61 pulled into Luke chapter 4, the initial sermon is, “I have come to set the oppressed free, proclaim sight to the blind, proclaim freedom for the captives.”He did not say, “I have come to convert you to a certain political ideology, a certain political party or platform.” He didn't say that because he literally says, the kingdom of God is not of this world. And so how do we see that as good news as followers of Jesus? And do we see that as good news in the context we're in today? And then finally, if we do see that as good news, how do we partner with God to actually participate as followers of Jesus in seeking the shalom of all the people around us? Because we do live as followers of Jesus in exile. Now, we are different from the Israelites because, friends, we are not disempowered as Americans.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: I have an American passport, which puts me in a fundamentally different political bracket than my brothers and sisters who are undocumented, than my human family that suffers under drone strikes. It's different. But at the same time, I can hold fast to the reality that how can I steward my power, my influence, my resources, towards the flourishing of all people, not just myself, which is resisting the gospel of Babylon. And so we have, one of my favorite people in the world is Connie Anderson, and she talks about how she was one of those White women in a midwestern state who had no idea who she was voting for and why. But then she goes to a board meeting at the invitation of someone to really get involved in local politics, and she realized the person that she was voting for had dementia, and he was on the city council voting for things, arguing for it in one minute, and then some time would pass, arguing against it in another minute.And then when someone said, “Hey, didn't you just say the opposite?” Then shout at them, “Don't try to tell me what I think.” And she said, “The only reason I voted for this person was because I recognized their name.” And she began to get involved, and now she leads workshops on anti-racism, trying to help White people do the work of deconstruction, not deconstruction of their faith, but a deconstruction of the White supremacy in their lives and how they can partner with God towards more redemptive things. And she is doing the good hard work of politics, and not politics from a lens of this world would be better if we get the right person in power, but this world will be better and transformative when Jesus is in power.And so how do I partner with him to reflect his kingdom in the system and structures that I have influence and power over? And besides a lot of the work that we do with KTF, this is probably the thing with InterVarsity that I am most proud of. So I sincerely hope that folks will grab it.We Need to Revolutionize Our ImaginationSy Hoekstra: Absolutely. Go check it out. Thank you for sharing the wisdom from it. And I especially want to emphasize what you said about, what did you say about our imagination? You said change or, the verb I can't remember [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Oh, bring a revolution in our imagination [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, there you go. That's what you said. I knew it was good [Jonathan laughs]. That is something that I am particularly passionate about, and kind of dovetails into why I spend so much time reading speculative fiction, like sci-fi and fantasy and everything [laughs], because… and thinking about how the people who write those books affect the worlds that we imagine too. That may seem like a weird, random turn into another subject to some people, but it is the way that I exercise my imagination, and I find a lot of the way that God talks to me in that work [laughs]. Like in the ways that I think about how we can imagine really different worlds and other stories that we don't see here now.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: That to me, is extremely important, and I know that there have to be at least some of you who feel that way too.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs] I know there are some avid fiction readers out there. Jonathan, we have a segment to get into.Which Tab Is Still Open? Israel's Horrifying Treatment of Palestinian DetaineesJonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, we've talked a lot, and we are still talking as we're going to get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, because this is something we're still talking about 10 months later, 76 years later, where we dive a little deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. So Sy, this one is yours, so tell us a little bit about it.Sy Hoekstra: It is mine, although I think I maybe originally got it from you. This is something that we have both been thinking and talking about a lot, so I will just summarize the story very quickly, and then we'll both talk about it for a while. So we're gonna be back on Israel and Palestine. Now, listen everything we just talked about is gonna affect this conversation that we're having now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: But there have been some horrible whistleblower stories, and I will not get into the details. So hopefully we're avoiding the need for a content warning here. But some horrible whistleblower stories about some things going on, I believe you pronounce it, the Sde Teiman detention center in Israel, which is where basically they're keeping a lot of known or suspected Hamas operatives who attacked on October 7. The allegations are about basically physical and sexual torture, and that's all the detail that I will get into, being regularized and just a part of the culture at this particular detention center. So recently, after a lot of these reports, there were 10 IDF soldiers who were charged by military courts, or nine soldiers and one reservist who were charged by military courts with perpetrating one of these acts of violence.And what followed is something that's a little bit unimaginable to me, until I think about January 6th, which was a series of riots at this detention center of people literally trying to just charge into the detention center and take the IDF soldiers who have been charged and put in detention themselves, and just kidnap them out of the place, just like free them. And these rioters, there were a couple hundred of them. A lot of them were just regular people living in the area. But some of them were actual government administrative workers and some of them, a couple of them were actual members of the Israeli parliament who participated in this riot, and they did not succeed. Like the soldiers are still there.Two of them were let go eventually, meaning, the charges were dropped. Eight of them, the military is actually pursuing the charges against them. There has not been any punishment for any of these rioters [laughs]. Nothing's happened to them. There's been no legal consequences. There was another riot and another base, same thing, no real consequences. I was trying to see if maybe just like the American media wasn't reporting on it, but I used multiple large language models [laughter] to look into whether there were any stories about these rioters and what consequences they face, and it's really been nothing. The members of parliament are still just sitting in parliament.Some people who are not in the government, who are in the opposition parties have called for investigations, but nothing has happened. There were many statements made by different far-right government members of parliament that were in support of the rioters. One person in Benjamin Netanyahu's party, basically stood up in Parliament and said, “I do not care what these soldiers did to Hamas operatives, because anything done to Hamas operatives is legitimate, in my view.” Like there's just no limits. When we say that there's an apartheid in Israel, this highlights kind of what we're talking about, because there is sort of within Israel proper, there is, you can still make some arguments about this, but there is a lot of democratic representation and rights for people who live there.And then in the West Bank, since 1967 there's basically been martial law where a general is in charge and makes all the decisions on behalf of people who live there, with the exception of the Jewish settlers who live there, who still have all the rights, as though they lived in Israel proper. And so there's this kind of weird thing going on where even though this base is in Israel, it is under the jurisdiction of the military. So it's this kind of martial law, I don't know, running into Israel's law in a sort of way that's highlighting some divisions in Israel. Because obviously, there are a lot of people within Israel who are very concerned that this has happened, and that people are going completely unaccountable for it.I mean, some people are literally talking about, I don't think this is a mainstream idea, but there's some people talking about, what if a civil war breaks out in Israel, because there are people who are so against what has happened, but the ruling government coalition is just so in favor of continuing the war at all costs, they're now starting to fight with Lebanon. They may start to fight with Iran. So anyways, those are the basics of the story. Jonathan, what are your thoughts [laughs]?Privilege Marginalized Voices in Your Media So You Don't End UP Believing FalsehoodsJonathan Walton: If you are listening, you've made it this far in the podcast and all those things, I hope you would privilege Palestinian voices and the voices of Jewish activists in your media diet, so that you are not persuaded towards believing what is not true. The reality is Israel, not the people, but the state, is a settler colonial project, and much of this I'm gonna repeat from Munther and other people that I have learned from because I am now trying to privilege their voices. I remember, and I've said this on podcast before, my RA when I was 18 years old, who lived in the West Bank, arguing with a Zionist Jewish young man who lives in Brooklyn and had never been to the West Bank about what it looks like.So you're watching someone from a lived reality argue with someone downstream of propaganda. And so the exact same thing could be true of someone who lives in a segregated Black neighborhood trying to explain how law enforcement works to someone who has never actually dealt with law enforcement in the United States, or a man who is having a conversation with a woman about what it's like to have her rape kit submitted and then it never be tested or run or anything. So just trying to bring things home a little bit in that we have to prioritize the voices of marginalized people in these conversations.Now, that is true all the time, particularly when there is no media or video. And in this particular case, there is video of all of this, similar to George Floyd, similar to Sonya Massey in the United States, there's video of this terrible perpetration of sexual violence, and there's video of the soldiers guarding this action so that people don't see it from the cameras and that it continues to happen, which is why these soldiers were quote unquote, arrested in the first place.What Would It Take for Americans to Wake Up to the Reality of This Suffering?Jonathan Walton: Now, my final thought around this is, which really a question, is like I wonder how desensitized we have become to the suffering of others and made it normal for these types of things to happen. And I wonder what it would take, in Jesus name I pray it is not violence.But I wonder what it would take for us to be awakened to actually do something about it as American citizens, because it is our tax dollars, our money, it's all of us that are funding that. And so those are my thoughts as I consider this, because there's a population of people that is further desensitized running into a population of people as being further radicalized because they are seeing more and more images and media come across their feeds. And my longing and hope is that there would be an awareness of the people who have been so desensitized and propagandized of the pain and suffering of the people who are experiencing deep harm, so that there can be some sort of reconciliation and just peace and a ceasefire and all those things before, not because of a war. That's my prayer.And so, yeah, as I am, [laughs] I'm gonna in Jesus name, be at Hunter College, be at Brown, be at MIT, be in Florida this fall, I'm gonna be talking about that. Having conversations, encouraging people to advocate so that there is a lesser chance of violence. Sy, that was a lot for me [laughs]. What are you thinking and feeling?Dehumanization Always Leads to Horrifying Violence, and Turns Oppressors into MonstersSy Hoekstra: That was very good. The thing that is so frustrating to me is how incredibly predictable this was.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: From the moment October 7th happened, they said, “This is our 911” Okay, This is your Abu Ghraib. This is your Guantanamo. Like we cannot expect to react the exact same way to an attack and not have this happen again. You can't expect to have the same dehumanization and racism against Arabs and not have this happening again. I don't know. It's just so frustrating to me, having grown up with the War on Terror, and just feeling like I'm watching it all over again. And just like it was in America, there's a lot of people in Israeli society who think this is all fine and totally support it.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And we may have done it in a little bit more of a buttoned up way. We might have done it with some lawyers making questionable interpretations of international humanitarian norms or whatever. We might have put the stamp of approval on it of some more powerful forces than they have available to them in Israel, but they're doing the same thing that we were doing. The thing that we need to come away from this is knowing that your dehumanization of other people has real life consequences, and the consequences are both for the victims who experienced horrific things and for the victimizers. Because one of the whistleblowers, when they were talking to CNN, the CNN reporter who doesn't believe this himself, and he put to the soldier, “A lot of people in Israel would say, well, Hamas does way worse than this to our captives. So what's the problem?” And he said, “Hamas is not your bar.” It's like, fine, if you want to be a terrorist organization, go ahead, be a terrorist organization. But you have to recognize that that's the moral decision you're making. You are not better than them, if this is what you are willing to do to them. And your dehumanization of other people at some point will turn you into a monster, is what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I just, I don't know [laughs]. I'm mad about it because of the horrifying consequences that it has on individual people, so it's a little bit visceral for me, but it is just so frustrating to watch all these things happen all over again and with our same stamp of approval.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if you want an example of why electing Kamala Harris will not be a victory for all things good and moral, it is because this sort of thing will continue.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.The Church Is Complicit in This TerrorSy Hoekstra: Another thing from Reverend Isaac last week was he really did a good job of emphasizing how complicit in all this the church is. Emphasizing points like, Christian Zionism actually predates Jewish Zionism, and there are actually way more Christian Zionists in the world than there are Jewish Zionists, just the raw numbers.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: And our support of that theology, our creation of that theology, our failure to fight it at every turn, that is what makes us just wholly complicit in what is happening over there. And Jonathan literally, here's the last note that I wrote in our outline: “Hopefully Jonathan has something uplifting to say before we end” [laughter], because I'll be real, I'm not thinking of it right now.Followers of Jesus need to Focus on Doing Small Advocacy out of Deep Love for OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah. So God's good news about politics is what we're talking about. We are talking about the allocation, distribution of resources, and how people have decided to govern ourselves, and what has happened in the United States, if we're just gonna hang out in the container that we're in, that in the United States we have decided with billions of dollars of our tax dollars, that we are going to build, then send, then advise the genocide of another group of people. I do not want the voting and advocacy and time and work that I do to be perpetrating that or be complicit in that. I might be involved because I have no choice not being overruled, but I will not be unopposed or complacent.And so as followers of Jesus, I think we have two options, and Peter did this really, really well. Peter was suffering under the oppression of the Jewish people, just like Jesus was, and Jesus' family and Jesus' friends and all the disciples as they were being occupied by Romans. And Peter thought he was doing the absolute just right, good thing in carrying a knife all the time, so that when Jesus got arrested, he pulled out his sword and chopped off the dude's ear. And this is John 18, the scene when Jesus was arrested. Jesus then picks up dude's ear, puts it back on his head, tells Peter to fall back. And Peter had two options. Peter could have said, “You know what, this sucks. I'm just not gonna do this anymore. Jesus, you're wrong.”He could have done that. He could have said, “You're presenting me with this gospel of hope in the world that is to come, not the world that is right now.” And he could have said, “I'm just going to give up, or I'm going to… look Simon the Zealot, we listen to this dude talk. It's time to start this.” He could have done that, but instead, eventually he got to, “I'm actually going to be the rock of this Church that Jesus said I was going to be,” which is why you and me and so many people listening to this podcast, have decided to follow this man who happens to be God named Jesus, who 12 ordinary men and a bunch of women that we did not name because they too are from a patriarchal society, we know a few of them, like Mary and Mary Magdalene and Dorcas and Phoebe, who decided to say yes, and thousands of years later, we're still talking about them.And so my hope would be that we as followers of Jesus, would say, “Hey, you know what? What small group of people can we do a little bit of revolutionary actions out of a deep, deep love for so that many, many, many years from now, people are still choosing love over fear and violence.”Sy Hoekstra: There we go, Jonathan. I knew you had it. I knew you had it in you [Jonathan laughs]. But I appreciate that, because when I say uplifting, that feels like something I can resonate with even while I'm looking at the horrifying nature of what I'm looking at. That feels like something where you're not sugarcoating it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's what I appreciate, and that's what I meant by uplifting. I don't want us just to end on a happy note, because you're Christian and you have to or whatever [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Amen, amen.Sy Hoekstra: So thank you so much for all this work that you're doing trying to create those small communities where people love and do good things. We did a lot of work and tried very hard to do it when we were in college, and I appreciate that you're still trying to get people to do the same thing as they go through that time in their lives.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Prayers and Support for Protesting Students Returning to CampusSy Hoekstra: And you and I will be absolutely praying for and supporting in any way that we can the students as they come back to campus and continue to, again as Munther Isaac said, lead the way in ways that the church has been so afraid to do and so unwilling to do.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, exactly.Sy Hoekstra: If you're listening to this, and you're about to go on to a campus [laughs], or you're already on a campus, we are praying for you, and we absolutely cannot imagine, I don't know, just the uncertainty and the strangeness of what you're doing, but we so appreciate it that you are doing it. And if you're not, and you're just choosing to support people in other ways, because there are many reasons to make that decision, then more power to you as well.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Okay. We are going to end there. Jonathan, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I'm really glad that we got to do it. We'll have those Bible studies that Jonathan created in the show notes.Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Editing by multitude productions. Transcriptions by Joyce Ambale. Production of the show, by me and all of our lovely paid subscribers. Please remember, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Get the bonus episodes of this show, as well as access to the monthly Zoom conversations. When you're listening to this we will just have had one, so be sure to sign up for the next one coming in September. Thank you all so much for listening, and we will see you all in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: We are close to the camera. We are ready to go.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah. By the way my camera, I tried so many different things to make it work here in Canada, and there's just nothing to be done.Jonathan Walton: I understand.Sy Hoekstra: So highlight reels from this episode will come from Jonathan Walton [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No worries, yes.Sy Hoekstra: Just make sure everything you say, you look really cool saying it.Jonathan Walton: I do look really great [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Hey, I'm glad you know that about yourself, Jonathan, I cannot confirm [Jonathan laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Today, we talk with theologian and activist Jesse Wheeler about the rotten fruit of the West's theology in Palestine and the broader region. We get into:-        How everyday Christians can tell the difference between good and bad theology-        Examples of the fruit of bad Western theology in Palestine and the region of the Middle East/North Africa-        How we must acknowledge the horrible effects of the Zionism on both sides of the political aisle, even while rejecting Trump-        What the political witness of Christians should be with respect to how we handle power-        And after the interview, Sy and Jonathan discuss the Christian nationalism and bigotry in faith leaders' response to controversies at the OlympicsMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Jesse's essay from the anthology, “Bad Theology Kills”-            Jesse's book, Serving a Crucified King-            Jesse's organization, Friends of Sabeel North America-            The new Institute for the Study of Christian ZionismCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jesse Wheeler: The Kingdom of God, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get. It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus through going to the cross, he was basically saying, “Okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.” And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting Injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today, including an interview with another one of our authors from our anthology on Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. This one's on how regular Christians can discern between good and bad theology, and how we can see bad theology playing out in the Middle East. Plus afterwards, hear our thoughts on the interview, and we'll be doing our segment, Which Tab is Still Open, diving deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week it's all about the Olympic opening ceremony controversy, trans athletes at the games and the White Christian persecution complex.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. We should probably say non-trans athletes at the Olympic Games.Jonathan Walton: I was literally about to be like, “and not?” [laughs] but…Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's part of the persecution complex. But we will get to that folks, don't worry. You will hear the whole story on how ridiculous it is. Before we get there, a quick reminder, please, everybody consider going to KTFPress.com and becoming a paid subscriber. We will not be able to continue doing this work beyond this election season if we do not get a lot more paid subscribers. So if you want to see this work continue, please go there and sign up. That gets you all the bonus episodes of this show. It gets you access to our monthly Zoom subscriber chats and more community features. So please KTFPress.com, become a paid subscriber.If you already are a paid subscriber, consider upgrading to a founding member level and please share widely with your friends and family to anyone who you think might be interested in joining our community here. Thank you so much all. All right Jonathan, tell everybody about our guest this week.Jonathan Walton: Yes, we have the amazing Jesse Wheeler. For almost three years, Jesse has served as executive administrator and development director for Friends of Sabeel North America, an interdenominational Christian organization seeking justice and peace in the holy land through education, advocacy, and nonviolent action. Prior to that, he served just shy of seven years in Beirut, Lebanon as a project's manager for the Institute of Middle East Studies at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary. He also ran the Master of Religion in the Middle East and North African studies program, working also as support instructor for MENA history, politics and economics.He has served in Nazarene, evangelical free and Presbyterian churches, and he holds a PG certificate in baptistic histories and theologies from the University of Manchester, a master of divinity with an emphasis in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary and a BA in diplomatic in Middle Eastern history with a minor in political economics from the University of California Berkeley. Jesse's wife Heidi is Palestinian-American, and they have three amazing boys. Now, Jesse's essay in our anthology was called Bad Theology Kills: How We Justify Killing Arabs. We actually published that at one point on KTFPress.com, so we'll have the link in our show notes to that. And you can get the entire anthology with all 36 essays at Keepingthefaithbook.com. That link will also be in the show notes.Sy Hoekstra: So we did this interview like we did a lot of our interviews a few months ago, at this point [laughs]. We've been releasing these slowly. This one we did in April, which is relevant. I only say that now because we talk about Biden a decent amount, and when it comes to Palestine, which is what we're talking about when we mention Biden, there's not a lot of distance between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.Jonathan Walton: Nope.Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs], I just wanted to note that up top so that you know that effectively all the content, all the things that we actually say on the subject don't really change given the candidate switch. But that disclaimer behind us, here we go with the interview with Jesse Wheeler.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Jesse Wheeler, thank you so much for being with us today on Shake the Dust. We really, really appreciate it.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be with you guys.How Everyday Christians Can Tell Good Theology from Bad TheologyJonathan Walton: Yeah. We were privileged to publish your essay in our anthology, and you gave us a relatively simple and accessible test for judging the value of the theology that we hear from leaders. Could you talk a little bit about the fruit test?Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. The fruit test, basically, it's taken straight from the Sermon on the Mount. It's no secret that there are different theological systems that exist in the world, different schools of thought, different ways of thinking, and it can be overwhelming, actually. And I'm even thinking of either my own context back when I was in seminary and sort of some of the destabilizing aspects of it, or when I was working at a seminary and working with students who are introduced to new ideas. And it can be overwhelming even epistemologically overwhelming when they're getting ideas that sort of might butt up against core ideas that maybe they were grown up with that are core parts of their identity. It can be very destabilizing.And this question of is there a way to distinguish good theology quote, from bad theology quote- unquote, if, I mean, those are very reductionist [laughs] the terminology itself, of course. But I think it comes straight from the Sermon on the Mount actually. And Jesus in the concluding sections of Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7, Jesus gives this, “By your fruit you will recognize them.” How to tell true prophets from false prophets on the basis of their fruit. He doesn't necessarily say, go get a doctorate in systematic, [laughs] in dogmatics to determine whether they are… He's like, look at the fruit of what is happening.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: And it's for normal people too. This is like normal people without massive theology to say, “Hey, look at this. I see that the fruit of this is leading to hurt and harm and destruction, or the fruit of this is leading to healing and health and flourishing.” It's not to denigrate or dismiss theology. I mean, the title of my chapter is Bad Theology Kills. I think Theology is important.Jonathan Walton: ExactlyJesse Wheeler: [laughs] It's a litmus test for assessing theology. And right there, Jesus chapters five, six, and the first part of seven, he gives a whole list of instructions of teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, and then concludes with, “Therefore do to others what you would want others to do for you. This summarizes the law and the prophets,” which is of course, the scriptures. Basically saying, if you wanna know what the scriptures teach, what God is expecting of you, do for others. And even in other parts of the gospels, when people ask, “Oh, what's the greatest commandment?” And he comes back to, “Love the Lord your God,” it's the Shema.And then right on adds it, and your neighbor as yourself taking that from the Leviticus. And he's like, there you go. Basically says that and then immediately goes into this section on two roads, easy road and narrow road. And then right after that talks about the false prophets who will come, who might speak eloquently, lovely, and yet the fruit is rotten.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: The fruit is rotten.Sy Hoekstra: Absolutely.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Out of the three of us, I feel like I am the one in the position to most appreciate your point, that you don't need a big theological education to apply this test [laughs]. Because for me and for a lot of the people listening, if you don't have a master's in divinity like Jesse, you haven't been doing ministry and Bible studies and everything for years and years like Jonathan, the more you learn about how little as kind of lay people we know about the whole wide world of theological academics and whatever, the more you realize, I don't feel equipped [laughs]. And so this is, I think, like Jonathan said, it's accessible. It's something that the average person can apply and have some success [laughs] according to Jesus, trying to figure out what's good and bad.Theologies that Have Born Rotten Fruit in the Middle East and North AfricaSy Hoekstra: And then I would like to hear from you, in your work doing work with advocacy in churches in the MENA, in the Middle East and North Africa, sometimes abbreviated MENA region, what have you seen bearing bad fruit? What kinds of theologies have you seen bearing bad fruit?Jesse Wheeler: So, I mean, I could start with the three I listed in my chapter, but I think I kind of want to say like, there is so, so much misunderstanding and prejudice and straight up bigotry that's filtered through a theological system that attempts to justify it.Colonialist PaternalismJesse Wheeler: But I'm going to start with the three I listed in my chapter, and the first one, colonialist paternalism.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: It's a theology of colonial supremacy. Why one person gets to make the decisions for another person, gets to invade another country, gets to conquer, but it's couched in a paternalistic language, often. In a this is for your own good language.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: It's the, I'm not going to attempt to do the French, but the civilizing mission [laughs], hand in hand with the White man's burden from back in the 19th century of bringing our civilization, our Christianity, on one hand… I mean, sometimes it was the church and sometimes it was full on those modern secularists springing [laughs] their enlightened, was just, it was hand in hand with the colonial project too. And that's actually what muddies up the water sometimes in our discourses, especially on more left side of the aisle discourses [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.Jesse Wheeler: Because you go from there and you go into speaking right in the Middle East, right after World War I, when you had the three competing promises, you had deals, you had The Balfour Declaration on the one hand, you had Hussein McMahon promising the Arabs of the Hajj, the like the Hussein family, a state, an Arab state, if they would help fight against the Ottoman Turks. And then you had the Sykes-Picot which was basically France and Britain getting together and saying, “Okay, here's how we're going to divide up the spoils.” [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: And the Balfour Declaration was Britain's intent to make a Zionist state.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. Basically a Zionist state in historic Palestine. And so, but you get into afterwards and you had the 14 points, and Wilson came in with, “Oh, we're gonna create a whole new world of peace and…”Sy Hoekstra: The League of Nations.Jesse Wheeler: The League of Nations, yeah. And the mandate system, like the fruit of 2that, where basically it's like Sykes-Picot. It's like Britain takes control, France takes control of Lebanon, Syria, Britain, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, and they had Egypt too. So it's just, but it's couched in this language of, it's for your own benefit. We are here to provide guidance to these native populations who need to be trained in the ways of democracy.Jonathan Walton: It's framed as benevolence. Like this is a good thing.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a good thing. It's like we are colonizing you for your good thing. Of course, land extraction, resource extraction [laughs], all of these marks of colonialism are part of this, right, but this is how it's justified, how it's sold, how it's…Sy Hoekstra: But the theology, like basically you're saying there were always churches and people propping up those colonialist ideas in the Middle East with basically the stamp of approval of the Bible or the church.Jesse Wheeler: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's not a total. I do need to make the point that sometimes the missionaries were very much… actually in the Middle East and in, or very much part of the colonial project, sometimes they actually would actually fight and counter the colonial project in certain ways, even though they were also facilitated by it. But yeah, these theologies, the colonialist paternalism. But to continue on, you have a theology of the Cold War developed almost of democracy and we'll bomb your entire country, but we will protect you from communism [laughs], you know.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: To very much part of my life, the war on terror. We're bringing democracy to the Middle East.Sy Hoekstra: Right. I was going to say that just sounds like George W. Bush, like everything that they were saying post World War I. It hasn't changed a lot.Jesse Wheeler: It has not. It has not. And so that's the first one.Henotheism: My Good God Will Defeat Your Bad GodJesse Wheeler: The second one in my book I describe as, I take this term from a scholar Joseph Cumming, he's a comparative theologian of Christianity and Islam, but he calls, he speaks of Henotheism.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: Which is sort of your tribal deity. I don't want… people push back on using tribal as a negative, but sort of the sense of like God is our God and we are the holy ones, and their God is a demon, and we will defeat them and destroy them. And so I even take this quote again from this, the war and terror era where a general speaking about fighting this warlord, whatever, in North Africa, talking about, “We have God on our side, and their god's a demon, and that's why we're gonna win and be victorious.” And this is so much in situations of conflict and situations, you very much have this sense of, “we are the good, our God is the good, they're the evil. And so because they're so evil, any violence is justified against them.”Sy Hoekstra: And that dates like straight back to the crusades.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Jesse Wheeler: Oh, yeah. This is crusades [laughs]. Exactly. Exactly. It's a crusader theology, but it's also when you really dig into it and you ask, well, these are supposed monotheists. And isn't the whole point of monotheism that there's actually one God for everybody, and thus it's to turn the God of the cosmos, the monotheistic God into a territorial idol.Settler Colonialism/ZionismJesse Wheeler: I'll move on to the third one, which I think is very relevant in that what I listed as manifest destiny. But it's the settler colonial theology, where it's different from the colonialist paternalism, because this is really, it's a theology that justifies why I deserve to go into a land, remove the indigenous people and take it for my own, basically.Sy Hoekstra: Which is the difference between settler colonialism and like metropolis, distant ruler colonialism.Jesse Wheeler: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And Jim Wallace, once he wrote, the most controversial statement I ever wrote talking about something he previously wrote was how America was founded on the genocide of one people and the enslavement of another. There was a time in my life where hearing words like that would be so deeply, deeply disorienting for me. My identity, my understanding of who I am. I think part of that discomfort, which is very real, because that's part of my background, and is I think what drives people to someone like Trump. Less the logic behind it, but the emotional, the emotions of feeling safe to have this champion on my side. But that's the simple truth. I mean [laughs], there's this belief that we are god's, we have this divine mandate to come into this new territory. And so I'm talking here about America, but of course this happened all over the world, actually. France and Algeria.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: That was so utterly destructive of traditional Algerian society. And France would even talk about, “Algeria is fully France. We are one.” And so I don't understand why these people are rebelling because we've given them democracy and freedom, when it's like, no, you've completely disrupted their entire civilization and ruled, but how it affects the news, you have the whole Charlie Hebdo incidents and these attacks in France. And this was violent murderous acts, yes. And morally they should be condemned, but you have to see them in their historical context [laughs] of this, the Algerian conflict. But South Africa, this was a deeply theological Dutch Calvinist movement. Even Argentina was a settler colonial context as well.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, most things in the Western hemisphere are [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. But in a way of the natives were cleared out more.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yes. I see what you're saying. Right. In Argentina, yes.Jesse Wheeler: Compared to like Brazil, just to the north. And then of course, Zionism is right in there with that. I think it's a theology that justifies why one group gets to come in and displace another group. And those three are three big ones.The Rotten Fruit of Colonialism and Zionism is on Both Sides of the Political AisleJonathan Walton: Yeah. I think those three, if we could hold them together as we press into the conversation, all of them are relevant. As we kind of move from the anthology into the present day. So in 2020 you wrote, “If our task is to examine the fruit and avoid falling prey to seductive rhetoric, it is crucial to note that from the vantage point of the Middle East, Republican drones don't look or act much differently than Democrat drones. Biden's record on the Iraq War or Israel-Palestine, while not as appalling or destructive as that of the Republicans is nevertheless quite bad. He's the only viable choice put before us on election day, yet we must remain vigilant in holding a potential Biden administration to account in the weeks, months, years that follow.”Now, I don't think any of us knew when you wrote that [laughs], how relevant, prophetic and important that last sentence would be. Especially when we talk about the settler colonial ideas that you just talked about, and the deep enmeshment and entanglement with Christian Zionism and the colonial state that is Israel. So, can you… I don't know how to say this just in a simple way. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been up to with the Friends of Sabeel over the past several months, since October 7th? And what are your thoughts about the two candidates? Because they're the same [laughter], as we look towards the election in the Middle East now. And I will also say our thoughts and prayers are with your friends and family in Palestine.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you.Jonathan Walton: And we've been praying that they would be safe in Jesus' name.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. No, thank you. I'm trying to think of where do I start digging in? First, my wife is Palestinian. Her family, still a lot of family in Bethlehem. My kids therefore are Palestinian. So I have a deep personal connection. And so to your listeners, knowing that [laughs] who is this guy? I definitely have a deep and emotional pull and connection to what's happening right now. But to go back to what you were first saying is, as you were reading that quote, that passage, and you had wrote, Biden is the only viable [laughs] candidate, my heart sank [laughs]. I'm like, “Ugh.” I understand why I said it at the time, but the listeners need to understand the depth of feeling of the pain, the sense of betrayal, especially amongst the Arab and Palestinian-American community and even wider Muslim community. The utter hurt that they felt in these last six months by everything that has happened.And so, it's so hard because Trump, just to get into the politics of, it's like I don't even need to say it. From my perspective, from where I stand, Trump is bad [laughs]. I mean, it's like he's out there saying, re-implement the Muslim ban and all completely bigoted and horrible. His son-in-law's talking about, “Oh, yeah, and there will be prime real estate in Gaza,” and [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Right.Jesse Wheeler: You know, back to settler colonialism. And yeah, it's terrifying. But the thing about Biden, and here's where I just have to say, he will in one breath talk about the importance of combating anti-Arab bigotry and Islamophobia, and in the next breath give billion more dollars of armed shipments to a country that the International Criminal Court is saying in their legal language, is very plausibly in the midst of an active genocide [laughs]. I'm not a lawyer. Sy, you're the lawyer [Sy laughs]. And it's just the duplicity is what hurts. So KTF shaped, you talk of Christian nationalism a lot and the dangers of Trump, and that largely the anthology was digging into that. And I remember writing the idolatrous fruit is rotten. I mean, that is like, the man thinks he's Jesus, I mean, or… [laughs] It's just horrifying.Sy Hoekstra: But it's still there with Biden.Jesse Wheeler: It's still there.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jesse Wheeler: It's like when you are connected to the Middle East, either via family or study, or I lived in Lebanon for seven years, when you're paying attention, it's very hard to cheerlead one political party versus another when it comes to the American presence in the Middle East, which has been incredibly destructive.Sy Hoekstra: And we have come back to that point that you made in your essay. If you listen to a lot of episodes of this show, you will have heard Jesse's name and this point brought up before [laughs].What Should the Political Witness of Christians Be?Jonathan Walton: Mm-hmm. You explained in the essay and just now, drones do not own political parties. The bombs that are dropping are the same. The impact they have is the same, devastation is the same. So the idea of the cross to so many people around the world, particularly in the Middle East, North Africa, the MENA region is a symbol of hatred and violence when it's supposed to be like the ultimate expression of God's holy love. We are recording this just after Easter, contemplating the death and resurrection of Jesus. To you, what should the political witness be of people who carry the cross of Jesus?Self-Sacrifice and a Rejection of Imperial ViolenceJesse Wheeler: Self-Sacrificial love. Quite simply what the cross represents. But at the same time, to dig into it a little more, the cross is what? It's a instrument of imperial violence, that's what it is. There's a reason Jesus died on the cross. It is ultimately a rejection of the Imperial way. Theologically, we need to talk a lot of the kingdom of God and how the kingdom of God exists as a direct challenge to the kingdoms of Pharaoh, of Babylon, of Caesar. And one of the brilliant things of the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament is the fact that it's also the kings of Israel and Judah [laughs], who become the Babylonian leaders. So you have the prophets who rail against the injustices of the Assyrians, but also look back at their own kings.And when Jesus comes proclaiming the kingdom of God, and when he comes before Pilate and he's brought before Pilate, what does this show right now? And I'm just pulling straight from N. T. Wright, so don't [laughs] pretend I'm like some great Bible scholar here. No. But you have Jesus, who is the representative of the kingdom of God standing before Pilate, who is the full legal representative of Caesar, son of God as they were known and called. And it's just a straight back and forth. And what does Jesus say? He says, my kingdom, there's the quote that always gets misinterpreted. So if you're talking politics and faith, my people say, my kingdom is not of this world. Well, people tend to say, oh, well, Jesus is, it's a spiritual kingdom.So all we do is sit and pray, and then you just let the world live as what empire, as injustice, like do we have nothing to say? No, he says it's more like, my kingdom is not from this world. It's not in kind to those kingdoms of this world, but it's very much in and for this world. Why?Jonathan Walton: Amen.Jesse Wheeler: Otherwise, Jesus says, going back to the garden, we just came through holy week, otherwise what? My disciples would've fought. They would've picked up arms, they would've become revolutionaries, they would've fought my arrest. They would've holed up in the mountains. They would have… So you have the kingdom, but going full back to the cross, kingdom by way of cross. So the kingdom of God cannot, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get… It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus, through non-violence, through going to the cross, he was basically saying, okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option. He did not take up the swords and the arms. He just said, just previously, those who live by the sword will die by the sword. And so that is the witness of the cross. It's self-sacrificial love. It's not this assertion of like, “Hey, this is mine. This is my space, this is my territory.” This is why, back to America, this is why the Christian nationalism is so idolatrous.Sy Hoekstra: We just had a, our March bonus episode, you're like hitting a bunch of our points, actually [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Keep going.Jesse Wheeler: Oh, no. Yeah. Thanks [laughs]. It's why it's so idolatrous, is because it's complete rejection of the way of Jesus. It's a complete rejection of what the cross is and what it's supposed to represent. I mean, scrolling through social media, I came across what this is like giant muscle Jesus breaking free from the cross. I'm like, no, that's the complete… no, the cross is the… Like Jesus says, you don't think… back in the garden, he says, you don't think I could call down angels? Call down [laughs] fire from heaven, and just like in an instant, make this all go away? He's like, “No, I'm going to the cross.” It's an example for us to follow.It Takes Faith in the Resurrection to Use Power Like JesusJesse Wheeler: And it's an article of faith. This is where people will come back and say, this is why it is hard for people, because it is a belief in the resurrection.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Jesse Wheeler: All the forces of death and all the things we do to avoid death. All the killing we do of others, the things we… all the hoarding of resources. All the things we do that we try to preserve ourselves and in the process hurt other people. And we build walls and we break them down. He's like, let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Go to the cross because the resurrection is happening. And it's hard for people because if you don't believe in resurrection, in a sense it's very difficult. But it is very much a faith stance and a faith position.The Roots of Sabeel in the Political Witness of Palestinian Liberation TheologyAnd going back to, you asked about Sabeel, you asked about where I work. So Sabeel is an organization founded by Palestinian-Christians out of the time of the first Intifada, the Palestinians uprising. Very much a movement, a spontaneous movement that didn't involve the PLO, which was largely external at the time, or the Palestine political leaders, and was a complete shock to many of the global leaders.And largely involved a lot of nonviolent direct-action, sort of creative actions, creative resistance and great violence actually was to try to throw it down in response. And yet, Naim Ateek, he was the founder of Sabeel, he wrote a book, published it 1989. It's called Justice and Only Justice, A Palestinian Theology of Liberation, basically started asking the question, how does our faith, our Christian faith, does it have anything to say to the situation, to us being under this violent, brutal occupation? And sort of the traditional, across the board, Orthodox Catholic, Protestant theologies weren't really saying much.So they started just, would preach there in St. George's Episcopal Church right in Jerusalem. And after the service, they'd kind of get together and start discussing. Like let's read a passage and let's think and just look. It's very much like you, if you think of the classic liberation theology in Latin America. The base communities just getting together. It's basically kind of got together and started thinking, but it grew from there to, so Naim Ateek sort of was the founder, but then it was really this core group that formed and they started inviting… because even back then, they're like, “We know the narrative imbalance that people are not hearing the Palestinian side of the story. Let's bring people and show them.”And they bring people, they show them, and immediately people are converted once they see the reality. People go on tours with the holy land all the time, they're highly curated and they don't go to those scary Palestinian areas. But the moment you enter Palestinian areas and are greeted with wonderful Arab hospitality and like [laughs]… But then here's what the reality of being under their military occupation is. And it is like, oh, I see it now. So people would go back and they founded, I work for Friends of Sabeel North America, but there's groups all over and it's been still going on. And then there's subsequent groups that have formed and other great partners too that we work with.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for being here. I mean, you didn't just write for the book. You were an enormous help in actually getting it published. You did a ton of work for us, source checking and all kinds of other things. You were… and were not running around looking for credit for any of that. So you definitely had your head down and you were doing [laughs] what you needed to do to get the word out. And thank you so much for being here today to talk to us.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you for doing it. I mean, I was really proud to be.Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much, man.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you for having me. And thank you for your witness. I mean, Palestine is a wheat and chaff issue, and I feel like those who've really stood for the truth and stood for justice and stood for what's right in the face of so much that's wrong. And it's just been amazing to see the witness of you guys, and I just want to thank you for that. It's very, it means so much.Sy Hoekstra: No, thank you for everything you do as well. We so appreciate it, man.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Blessings on you and Friends of Sabeel. Amen.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you so much. Blessings to you guys.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Thanks.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jesse's Social Media and RecommendationsSy Hoekstra: You can find Jesse @intothenoisejsw on Instagram and Twitter. His organization, the Friends of Sabeel North America is at FOSNA.org, and those will both be in the show notes. And also, Jesse wanted us to mention another organization that just kind of had its grand opening over the summer after we recorded this interview. It's called the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism. It's a really cool new organization with a lot of people involved who you may recognize if you're familiar with kind of the field of that particular branch of theology [laughs]. And basically, they want to be a one-stop shop, a hub, a go-to resource for everything related to fighting the heresy, as they call it, of Christian Zionism.And so, that you can find that organization at Studychristianzionism.org. We'll also put that in the show notes, obviously.Jonathan's and Sy's Reactions to the InterviewSy Hoekstra: Okay, Jonathan. After that interview, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: Bad theology kills people.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Uh-huh. It's not a joke.How We Resist Institutions Built to Protect and Reinforce LiesJonathan Walton: [Laughs] I think we need to lean into that and say it over and over and over again. We cannot divorce what we believe from what we do. Can't. They are intertwined with each other. And it's baffling to me that particularly American Christians, and this like runs a gamut like Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, native, all the things, how strongly we cling to, I believe this, I believe this, I believe this, how deeply committed we are, how there are institutions, there are studies and conversations, there are all these different things that are built up around things that are just not true. Like just the level of intricacy of every apparatus to hold together a lie is mind-boggling to me.And it is so effective that we can get caught up in all the details and never think about the impact, which is what I feel has happened. Like, oh, all I do is read these books. All I do is write these articles. All I do is do these podcasts. All I do is give money to this organization. All I do is pray. All I do is watch these documentaries. All I do is host these little dinners at my house. Not knowing at all that it is undergirding the bombing of Palestinians and the rampant Islamophobia and the destruction of Palestinian Christian life. Don't even know it because it's just an encased system. So I think for me, I'm reminded of the power of the gospel transformation because the gospel and liberation is also a complete process, just like colonization is and settler colonialism is.So I'm challenged because the next time I think to myself, I'm going to change the world. I'll remember this conversation and realize only Jesus can [laughs] do that. And I need to have just as robust of a theology and apparatus built around me and participating as a follower of Jesus as the forces that are hell bent on destroying people's lives. That was just a thing I've been holding onto, particularly as we were talking about Easter, as we are reflecting on the reality of the resurrection, we need a theology of life, abundance and liberation that is just as robust, just as supported, just as active and engaged as the theology of destruction that we have now.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. The theology, specifically what he was talking about kind of toward the end about the use of power.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I had that same thought basically that you just said. Like the way that we use power via sacrifice as opposed to using power via dominance. Like that needs to be as emphasized as anything else in our Christian discipleship.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Because it is just, it's so absent. You cannot insist to so many Western Christians that that aspect of our faith is as important as the stuff that we'll get into a minute about arguing about like sexuality or whatever [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We have just so deprioritized these things that were so central to Jesus when he said things like, my kingdom was not of this world. So there's that.We Emphasize the Importance of Theology for the Wrong ReasonsSy Hoekstra: The other thing that I was thinking about was also related to what you just said, which is, you say bad theology kills, and we need to understand how important our theology is in that sense. But we also need to understand the way that our theology is important because we actually do think theology is really important just in the wrong way.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.We think theology is really important for defining who is in and out of Christianity or just for having proper orthodoxy and that sort of thing, just to tick all the boxes to make sure that your beliefs are correct.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Which absolutely pales in comparison to the real reason that theology is important, which is it shapes our behavior, or it can shape our behavior [laughs]. Or it interacts with our behavior and they reinforce and shape each other in ways that create policies and government actions and whole social transformations and systems across the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So yeah. That's what I am coming out of this thinking. We need to stay focused on. And I'm just so happy that there are people like Sabeel and others fighting in that way. And by the way, back on the point of how we exercise power and how important it is to exercise power in the way that Jesus did. Jesse actually wrote to us after the interview and said kind of, “Oh, shoot, there's a point that I forgot to make,” [laughs] that I wanted to bring up here, which is something that, so the founder of Sabeel, his name is Naim Ateek often raises, which is that, like Jesse said, Sabeel was founded after the first Intifada in 1987. But he says, there are two organizations that were founded out of that Intifada.One of them was Sabeel and the other was Hamas. And he said, basically just look at the two approaches [laughs]. There's armed insurrection and then there's non-violent direct action and education and advocacy and whatever. Like it is small what Sabeel is doing. It is certainly smaller than what Hamas is doing. And it is one of those things that probably to the rest of the world looks like it's less powerful, it's less effective. And like Jesse said, it is an article of faith to believe that that is actually the stronger way to go. You know what I mean? That is the more powerful road to take, even though it is the much more difficult one to take. And I just really wish that we could all have a faith like that.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, and amen.Sy Hoekstra: Shall we get into Which Tab Is Still Open, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: [laughs], all the tabs Sy. Let's go.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Christian Reactions to the OlympicsSy Hoekstra: All the tabs are still open. We're gonna talk about two stories that have to do with the Olympics, that also have to do with Western Christians [laughter], and how persecuted we feel.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I'm just, let me quickly summarize what happened here. The details are very silly on the first one. You probably heard about this one, this is probably the more popular story. During the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, well, here's some background. The opening ceremonies to the Olympics are weird. They're always weird. They've always been weird [laughs]. I always come away from them thinking, “Wow, that was weird,” [laughter]. They usually include some kind of tribute to ancient Greece where the Olympics came from. And in this case, one of the things they did was a little tribute to the Festival of the Goddess Dionysus. Wait, goddess? Was Dionysus supposed to be a man or a woman?Jonathan Walton: A man. Dionysus is a man.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Okay.Jonathan Walton: No. Diana is a woman, but yeah.Sy Hoekstra: All right, fine [laughs]. So anyways, they had this staging of a feast, and the way it was staged with all of the people sitting at the table facing the audience and the cameras reminded a lot of Christians of the way that Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is staged with Jesus and all the disciples facing the painter [laughs]. But all of the, or not all, but the most of the people sitting at the table were drag queens. And so Christians took this as a massive insult, that people must be mocking the Last Supper and our religion and our beliefs about conservative traditional sexuality and et cetera. The Olympic organizers came out and said, “This had nothing to do with Christianity, we apologize for the offense. This was about Dionysus, and that was kind of it. We weren't talking about Christianity, but we're sorry if we offended you.”And that was the end of it. But basically Christians said, “We're being mocked, we're being persecuted, they hate us,” et cetera. Second story, a female boxer by the name of Imane Khelif was in a fight with an Italian female boxer and hit her pretty hard a couple of times. And then the Italian boxer quit and said that Khelif is a man who is a trans woman fighting in the women's competition in the Olympics. The only reason that this was a viable thing for the Italian woman to say was because in the year before that, at the 2023 World Championships, the International Boxing Association disqualified Khelif from the competition saying that she had elevated testosterone levels and that she had XY chromosomes and was in fact a man. So she failed the gender eligibility test.The reason this is a ridiculous thing for them to have said [laughs], is that Khelif was born assigned female at birth. Her birth certificate says she's a woman. She has lived her entire life as a woman, she has never claimed to be trans in any way. And they never published the results of the test. And they only came out and said that she had failed these gender eligibility tests after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer. Why does that matter? Well, the president of the International Boxing Association is Russian, has moved most of the IBA's operations to Russia, has made the state-run oil company the main sponsor of these boxing events, has close ties to Putin, et cetera [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: It has become a Russian propaganda machine. The International Boxing Association, the International Olympic Committee has actually cut ties with them, is no longer letting them run the World Championships or the Olympic games boxing tournaments. They have suffered from corruption, from match fixing by referees, lack of transparency in finances, et cetera. It is a big old mess, and they never published the results of these gender eligibility tests. And it is pretty clear that they were made up in order to preserve the undefeated title of a Russian favorite boxer [laughter]. So it's absolute nonsense is what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: But that has not stopped anyone, including people like Elon Musk and JK Rowling from saying, “what we clearly saw here in the Olympics was a man punching a woman. And this is where you get when you follow the transgender agenda,” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Obviously I just named, well, Rowling is a Christian, but lots of Christian leaders jumping on this same train. Jonathan, these were yours.Jonathan Walton: [exasperated exhale] These are mine.Sy Hoekstra: Why did you include these? You have been, I'll say you have been very focused on these, the Christian reaction to things going on in the Olympics has been on the brain for you. Why [laughs]?Fusing Faith with American PowerJonathan Walton: Because I think there's a couple things because bad theology kills people. Sy, we talked about this and like…Sy Hoekstra: Well, no, wait. How is this, explain the relation there, please.Jonathan Walton: Gladly. Gladly. So I think [laughs], I'm gonna read this quote by Andy Stanley who posted this after the Dionysus thing and then took it down because I think he realized the err of his ways. But I am grateful for the interwebs because somebody screenshot it. Here we go [Sy laughs]. “Dear France, the Normandy American Cemetery is the resting place of 9,238 Americans whose graves are marked by 9,238 crosses. American soldiers, who in most cases volunteered to come to your shores in your time of need. Their final prayers were to the God whose son you mocked in front of the entire world. It was during the very meal you went to such creative pains to denigrate, that Jesus instructed his followers to love one another and then define what he meant. Quote, greater love has no one than this, that one laid down his life for his friends, end quote. While you host the Olympic Games, remember your nation hosts 172.5 acre reminder of what love looks like. You don't just owe Christians an apology. You owe the West an apology.” End quote.Sy Hoekstra: It's so much Jonathan [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is. That's a book. That is a book. It's called 12 Lies.Sy Hoekstra: That's your book, yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And then it's an anthology that like [laughs] called Keeping the Faith, right? So that to me, and what's happened in this season of the Olympics has crystallized something for me that I think about. But these are such concrete, clear, succinct, edited examples of like, here is what happens when geopolitical power of the American apparatus is just completely inseparable, completely fused, completely joined together with the Jesus of empire.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So much so that minutes after this ceremony was completed and broadcast, you have people with the language, you have people with the vocabulary, you have people with statistics. He's like, this is the number of crosses. That means he Googled something, he don't just know that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We are primed as… not me, because I'm not. But the White American church and folks affiliated and committed to White American folk religion, like this race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchy that dominates this false gospel of the merchant, the military and the missionary all coming together. Like that is just so frustrating to me. And it's not going to stop because the apparatus is in like, I feel like a full maturation right now because it is under threat and constantly being exposed. So what tab is still open for me is the reality that the people who are armed with a false gospel are finally being met online and in real life by people who are willing to challenge them.And so what was amazing to me was watching a Fox News segment where someone came on and said, “Hey, Imane Khelif was born a woman, is a woman. This is not a trans issue.” There are people willing to go on and say the things. There's an online presence of people willing to go online and say the things. And I think we have an articulation of faithful followers of Jesus who are willing not just to say this is wrong, but name the connection that when we have conversations about Christians being persecuted, boom, here's a picture of Christians actually being persecuted, Palestine. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: When we have conversations, oh, we are being persecuted and violence is being committed against us. No, no, no. Violence is actually happening to trans people at a staggering level. And it correlates with when we have these nonsensical conversations that actually create environments that are more dangerous for them in the bathroom, in schools and wherever they go. And so, I can have a conversation with someone and say—this was a real conversation—we have the luxury of having this conversation as people who are not involved directly, but we do not have the luxury of as followers of Jesus is not then following up and saying, “I was wrong.”So I had conversations about Imane Khelif with Christians who said, “You know what? Oh, I didn't know that. Let me go back and post something different. Let me post an apology. You know what, I see what you're saying. I clicked on the links. Yeah, we shouldn't be doing that. I'm gonna go and have a conversation with these people.” That to me is hopeful, and at the same time, I know that this will not stop because my mama would say, “When the lights come on, the roaches run everywhere.” I fully suspect that there will be more examples like this leading up to and beyond the election.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, for sure.Jonathan Walton: …as there is more light on the sheer nonsense that Andy Stanley and these other people are propagating on a regular basis.Christians Demonstrated How Christian Nationalism is Common and Acceptable in White ChurchesSy Hoekstra: And people who jumped on this by the way, were like, Ed Stetzer and people who are kind of like in the middle politically in America and in American politics at least. They're not Trumpers. These are regular Christians [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. And that's the thing that we talked about a few episodes ago. This is the soft Christian nationalism, socially acceptable American exceptionalism. All these things are totally normal, totally fine in quote- unquote. that normal Christianity.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And actually, so one of the things I want to emphasize about that thing you, that someone screenshotted from Andy Stanley, was that his idea of love in that post is like, I'm gonna sacrifice myself for you and then in exchange I get control over your culture so that you will not insult me.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is not the love of Jesus. The love of Jesus is laying down your life for your friends, period, end of story. Jesus laid down his life for people who have nothing to do with him. You know what I mean? Who can't stand him, who don't like him, whatever.Jonathan Walton: Who desired to kill him [laughs]. Right.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly. And did not demand then that they conform to his way. He let them go on their way.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The quote unquote love that says, all these soldiers at Normandy sacrificed, therefore you cannot insult us, is not Christian. Has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus. And it does have everything to do with tying your faith to an empire that uses military might to demand conformity. That is colonizing faith, period.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Why White Christians Invent Enemies Where None ExistSy Hoekstra: That aspect of it then kind of plays into some of the stuff that I was thinking about it, which is that like if you are someone who has so fused your faith with dominance like that, then you are constantly looking for enemies who don't exist to come and defeat you because that's your way of living. You live by the sword. So it's almost like a subconscious, like you live by the sword, you expect to die by the sword. You live by cultural dominance, you expect people to culturally dominate you. So you're going to find insults against one European artist's rendering of a scene from the Bible where none exist. Just because they had drag queens you don't like.You are going to find trans women who don't exist [laughs] and argue that they are a sign of the things that are destroying the culture that you built in the West. And I just think that is so much more revealing of the people who say it than it is of anything that they were trying to reveal through what they said.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. I wonder if there were followers of Jesus who when da Vinci painted what he painted, said, “This is not my savior.”Sy Hoekstra: I can think of one reason, but why would they have said that Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Because the Last Supper is a parody of an event in the scriptures. The reality is Jesus is not a Eurocentric figure sitting with flowing robes with people surrounding him. That's not how it happened. That's not how Passover looks[laughs]. So I mean, the reality of them being these American insurrectionist pastors who say, “You know what, we are going to get angry about a parody that isn't a parody, about a parody that we believe is actually sacred.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Well, okay. Calling the Last Supper parody I think is a little bit confusing.Jonathan Walton: No, the…Sy Hoekstra: Because I think da Vinci meant it the way that he… [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No, I'm sure da Vinci reflected his cultural reality on the scripture, which is something we all do.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: But to then baptize that image to be something that can be defiled and then demand capitulation because of our quote- unquote military might, those lines are bonkers to me. So I can be frustrated that I feel mocked, because that's a feeling, I feel mocked. But what should happen is we say, I feel mocked because I don't actually have cultural understanding and acuity to be able to differentiate my own emotional realities from the theology of the Bible when we don't have those skills. And actually we don't have that desire because we desire for them to be one and the same, like you said. I desire to feel affirmed and good and empowered all the time.And if that comes under any threat, then it's either the merchant, let's take money from you. Let's sanction you, let's get you out of the economic system so you cannot flourish in the way that we've defined flourishing to look. We will bring missionaries and people and set up institutions to devalue and debunk your own cultural narratives and spiritual things that you hold dear. And if that doesn't work, we'll just shoot you and make sure it does. Anyway, that's was more forceful than I expected it to be.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] It wasn't for me because you keep putting these Olympics things in the newsletter and you keep telling me how frustrated you are about them, but it goes to stuff that is extremely important and I appreciate you bringing up and bringing us into this conversation.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: We have to go. You specifically have to leave in a couple minutes, so we're going to wrap things up here. Even though you and I could talk about this subject forever [Jonathan laughs]. Maybe Jonathan, maybe we'll talk about it more at the next monthly Zoom conversation.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …on August 27th that people can register for if they become paid subscribers at Ktfpress.com, which you all should please go do if you want to see this work continue beyond this election season, get access to all the bonus episodes of this show, the ability to comment, other community features like that. The anthology, again, is at Keepingthefaithbook.com, that's what Jesse wrote for and what 35 other authors wrote for trying to give us a faithful path forward as so much of the church idolizes Donald Trump and the power that he brings them in this particular political era. Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale, editing by Multitude Productions. Thank you all so much for listening and we will see you in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: The White Christian persecution complex. [Jonathan lets out a deep, croaky “Maaaaaaaah”].Sy Hoekstra: I really should have… what was that noise [laughter]?Jonathan Walton: I think it's appropriate [Sy laughs]. It was the exasperation of my soul. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

White Christian nationalism has seized many of our churches and captured the hearts of our fellow Americans with fear of the other. Can we forge a new common society, or will Republicans succeed in dragging us into a Christian theocracy?Plus- Thom read from "Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism--and What Comes Next" by Bradley Onishi.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On today's episode, Jonathan and Sy have a catch-up conversation on the assassination attempt, the Vance VP pick, Biden stepping down, and Harris stepping up. Then they talk with UCLA professor Robert Chao Romero about:-        What everyday life was like for immigrants during Trump's administration-        How MAGA Christians' treatment of immigrants reveals a lack of spiritual discernment-        What Professor Romero would say to immigrants who think voting won't make a difference-        And the complicated, diverse politics of Latine voters in AmericaMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Tamice Spencer-Helms reading an excerpt of Faith Unleavened-            Professor Romero's Instagram-            And his book, Brown ChurchCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Robert Romero: In the context of the life of worship, we are to reflect upon scripture, upon the 2000-year-old tradition of the church, and to add Latino theology, en conjunto, or in community, with the local church, with the global church, with the church that's there with Jesus right now, even. And there has to be a continuity, a harmony between new scriptural interpretations and our ancestors that have gone before us. And so if you just run that test [laughs], that criteria, the MAGA movement through that doesn't make any sense.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. This is gonna be an interesting episode. Today we're breaking our format a little bit because just so many things have happened since the last time that we recorded. I don't know if you've noticed, Jonathan, a couple of things happened in the news [laughs] since the last time we recorded this show.Jonathan Walton: A few historical events.Sy Hoekstra: Just a few historical events. So we're still gonna have an interview with one of the authors from the anthology that we published on Theology and Politics. This week it will be Robert Chao Romero, who is a lawyer, history PhD, professor, pastor, activist. No big deal, the usual combination of the regular career path that everyone takes. But before we do that, we are going to spend some time talking about the assassination attempts on Donald Trump, the JD Vance pick for Vice President, Joe Biden stepping down, the almost certain nomination of Kamala Harris. And while we will probably talk about a couple of the resources that we've highlighted in our newsletter on those subjects, we're not gonna formally do our Which Tab Is Still Open this time around. There's just too much…Jonathan Walton: There's a lot. There's a lot.Sy Hoekstra: …to talk about, and we wanted to get all that in. Plus the really, really great interview with Professor Romero. But before we get into all of that, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Hey, if you like what you hear and read from KTF Press and would like for it to continue beyond the election season, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber, and encourage others to do the same. We've got a ways to go before we're going to have enough people to sustain the work we're doing after the election. So if that's you, go to KTFPress.com, sign up, become a paid subscriber, and then tell a friend to do the same thing. That gets you all the bonus episodes of this show, access to our monthly Zoom chats with the two of us and some other great subscribers. And so go to KTFPress.com and subscribe.The Assassination Attempt on Donald TrumpSy Hoekstra: Alright Jonathan. Let's start with the big one. Well, no, they're all big ones.Jonathan Walton: No, they're all big for different people, for different reasons [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: For very different reasons.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: The assassination attempt in Pennsylvania at the rally, just before the RNC. The media reaction to this, Jonathan, has struck me as a little bit odd. I don't know what you've been thinking, but let's hear what you're thinking, what your reaction to the assassination attempt was and to the conversation around it.Not Taking Part in the News Spectacle of the AssassinationJonathan Walton: Yeah. So my immediate reaction was, okay, if this had happened in 2016, I think I would've pulled my phone up and writing things, processing, trying to figure things out, all those kinds of things. When I heard this news, I was on the beach in California with my family, and I honestly was not troubled. And that was weird to me. I was not worried, I was not concerned. I thought to myself, “Man, if I was orienting my life around the decisions of Donald Trump and the Republican Party, I would probably be losing my insert word [laughs], but I'm not.” And I also thought about, oh, if I am someone on the quote- unquote left, my brain would be spinning. How is this gonna be politically, what's the impact? Blah, blah, blah. And I just wasn't. And so in that immediate moment, I felt empathy for folks that were feeling that type of dissonance.And the way that I felt towards Donald Trump actually came from a conversation I had with Priscilla, because she was sharing and just the reality that we don't want to participate in the spectacle of it. Reality in TV is an oxymoron that shouldn't exist. Our lives are not entertainment. The intimacies of life should not be broadcast and monetized and commented on as though all of us are all of a sudden now in a glass, I mean [laughs], to reference not the book, but just the image. But that all of us are now like a glass menagerie that we can just observe one another and comment as if we're not people. Those are the initial feelings that I had.Why Wasn't the Shooter Considered Suspicious?Jonathan Walton: The last feeling that I had was actually highlighted by someone from our emotionality activist cohort. He said that he felt angry because the shooter was labeled as suspicious, but not dangerous. And he said, if this had been a BIPOC person, Black, indigenous person of color, there would've absolutely been a response.Sy Hoekstra: Especially at a Trump rally.Jonathan Walton: At a Trump rally, there would've been a response to a suspicious person of color. That would've been fundamentally different place as evidenced by the very real reality, I think a few days later at an event where there was a Black person that was killed by the police [laughs] near a political rally. So I think there, no, there was an altercation, there was a very real threat of violence between these two people, but the responses to Black people and people of color and the impoverished and all these different things that it, it's just a fundamentally different thing because they saw this 20-year-old kid who isn't old enough to buy alcohol, but old enough to get his hands on an AR-15 to scope out a place and shoot someone wasn't seen as a threat. And I think that is a unique frustration and anger, because I hadn't thought about that, but I hold that too.Sy Hoekstra: Just to emphasize that he was, the local police officers actually did try and flag this person as someone who was suspicious. They didn't do anything about it, but they noted it. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Which is even more… Like his behavior was suspicious enough for him to be noticed by law enforcement, but they didn't actually do anything, and then they reported it to whoever was running campaign security, and they didn't do anything about it either.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I don't know. Yes, that is a good and sad point, and I appreciate you bringing it up.We Have to Insist on the Value of Trump's LifeJonathan Walton: Well, what about for you?Sy Hoekstra: I mean, I guess my response to, two different angles of response to it. One is to anybody, I know there are people out there who are like, “Trump is a fascist, Trump is a threat to democracy, I just wish he'd been hit in the head.” And I don't think anyone in, I haven't heard anybody in the mainstream media or politicians or anyone saying that, because that would be too far for them in their [laughs] policies and their politeness and all that. But there are people thinking it, and I just, I don't know. I just have to say that we can't do that.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely not.Sy Hoekstra: We can't be the people who dehumanize somebody to that degree. I agree that he's a fascist and that he wants to, and that he is a huge threat to our democracy and all of that. But to then say, “I wish he was dead,” that puts you on his level. That makes you like him, the person who mocks when other people have had assassination attempts on them, like Nancy Pelosi or Gretchen Whitmer. Or who encourages and stands behind all the people who were in the January 6th riot that did actually kill people, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't become him, is what I'm saying to anybody who's thought or been tempted to have those thoughts. We still have to stick to the image of God and everybody as a principal. Even when it's genuinely tempting not to, because there are serious considerations on the other side of that argument [laughs] if that makes sense.Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes.Sy Hoekstra: It's a terrible thing to talk about, but it's, I think it's worth addressing.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.We Do Not Need to Tone Down Our Rhetoric about Trump's Threat to DemocracySy Hoekstra: But I also have to say the opposite side of like, we must call for unity. We must call to lower the political rhetoric and the political temperature. When it comes to Donald Trump, that is ridiculous.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: That is a, you can't do that [laughter]. And the reason is, first of all, he's the one mocking other people's attempts that have happened on their lives, or riots that actually led to people dying, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So for him or the people who support him to say, “Oh, now we need to call for unity or rhetoric to come down,” it's hypocritical on their part. Now, that doesn't matter. I'm not trying to just be like whatabouting the Republicans. But the issue is like, there's different kinds of heated political rhetoric. When you obviously accuse somebody of being a threat to democracy, that's a charged statement for sure that you shouldn't say lightly. However, the people who are arguing it now are arguing it on the basis of Donald Trump's words and actions [laughs]. They're making a real good faith argument based on actual evidence. It's heated nonsense political rhetoric when Donald Trump says that there's an invasion at the southern border…Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …and you're just painting poor people who are fleeing violence, trying to find safety in an opportunity in America as invaders who are here to, well, like he said, killers and rapists and drug dealers and whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: When you're just painting with a broad brush, when you're creating stereotypes, when you're just trying to slide people into a category, that's dehumanization and that's what can lead to violence. When you're actually making an argument against something that people have actually done, like words that people have said and actions that they have taken, that's a different story. And it is true that in a country of 320 million people, even if you make a good faith argument based on facts, that somebody's a threat to democracy, somebody might take that as a reason to shoot at them. But that's not anything over which we have any control.Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: That doesn't mean you stop saying things that are true because they're… you know what I mean? That then I wouldn't say anything about anybody. I would just keep my mouth shut all the time. I can't make any arguments about anything because what if somebody just happens to at the wrong moment take that as license to go attack somebody?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So all of that stuff seemed like nonsense to me. And then people were like, “Oh, don't talk about how it's gonna help his campaign.” Of course, it's gonna help his campaign. And of course the Republicans are going to use it to help his campaign. We need to be realistic about what we're talking about here [laughs] in the context of our conversation. So I think those were my reactions to all of this. I think because as soon as he was shot at, I, because he wasn't hit, I knew he was fine. So I wasn't particularly scared about it. I didn't have like a lot of emotions around the thing itself, because the guy missed him [laughs].Americans Condemning Political Violence is HypocrisyJonathan Walton: Yeah. I think I'll also say too, it's the idea that all of a sudden, we are gonna step out and condemn political violence, let's be clear. There's an exceptional level of political violence enacted by the United States every single day against its own people, against people around the world. There are 900 bases where political violence is happening. We tried to assassinate a leader a few months ago in the Congo. Let's be clear that the reality of that statement too is just ridiculously hypocritical and ignorant.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: Right. Like just Biden did rattle off some political violence that I think we, the quote- unquote dominant cultural narrative is okay with calling out, but we also have to just name the reality that we are actively participating in things that are politically violent.Sy Hoekstra: All the time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs] all the time. For example [laughs], Biden said, oh, yeah, we're not gonna ship bombs to Israel anymore, and the reality is we shipped thousands of bombs.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That level of comfort with ignorance and hypocrisy and the dissemination, or just sharing that widely, is also something not about the event itself, but our dominant narrative response and the legacy media's response was just, that was disheartening to say the least.Sy Hoekstra: It's a very good point. And I would point out that Trump himself had a general in Iran assassinated [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It's just like, it's complete nonsense.Jonathan Walton: He did. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: For us to be like, “Where does political violence come from in America? I don't know.”Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: The many presidential assassinations and lynchings and pogroms and everything else. Like what? I don't know.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We should note, by the way, as I'm listening to you talk, Jonathan's at home and children are not in school, they're home from daycare [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Oh, yes. Yes. Our house is very full. Thank you for being gracious.Sy Hoekstra: You'll hear some adorable little voices in the background. I'm sure everyone will enjoy it all.The VP Pick of J. D. VanceSy Hoekstra: Jonathan, let's talk JD Vance. What are you thinking about this pick [laughs]?Vance Is Everything Trump Wishes He Was, and Could Lead for a Long TimeJonathan Walton: Oh, Lord! I think the thing that bothers me about JD Vance, as my daughter screams [laughs], is Donald Trump picked someone who reflects all of the values that he has and wants to espouse.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: So Donald Trump would love to say that he grew up poor and is a working class man, all those things. He's not, but JD Vance, quote- unquote, is. He desperately wants to say he made it and served his country and all the… No, he didn't.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But JD Vance is a Marine and quote- unquote actually built a business. Now, JD Vance is also exceptionally misogynistic, exceptionally patriarchal, exceptionally individualistic in the way that Bootstrap Republicanism tries to embody itself. And so he chose someone at the same time that did not have the apprentice. That did not go on reality television. That did not spend his life entertaining people, so I think he is going to be taken seriously, which is why he's dragging Donald Trump in the polls. I think what happened is the wholesale remaking of a section of the Republican party that has now taken it over, and he chose a leader that could be the voice of that for the next 25 years. And that I think is sad [laughs] because I do believe in a pluralistic society where people can share ideas and wrestle and make good faith arguments and argue for change and all those things.So I don't want some one party event that happens. At the same time, I think it is exceptionally unnerving and unsettling and destabilizing for someone who holds such views against women that we will absolutely see, obviously when we talk about Kamala Harris. But what he, what Donald Trump blessed and sent out, JD Vance will now bless and send out for the next few decades at least. And that if you wanted to give a new, like a reiteration of Strom Thurmond, here we go. He's 38, he could be talking and on TV and doing things for the next 50 years, and that is deeply unsettling for me.Vance Is a Sellout, but That Probably Won't Matter MuchSy Hoekstra: It's also interesting that he's someone who's doing it as a sellout.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yeah. A thousand percent.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Meaning he was not… he was a never Trumper for a while. He called Trump possibly America's Hitler at one point. And now he totally turned around once he ran for Senate because he saw where the wind was blowing.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: If nothing else, his Silicon Valley background lets him understand disruption and how to capitalize on uncertainty and when things are changing [laughs]. So yeah, that's an interesting one to me. I kind of wondered if that would make Trumpers not trust him or even not trust Trump, because he isn't… So much of the Trump worldview that he tries to inculcate in people is us versus them, and we need to demand loyalty because there's so much danger out there coming at us. And so a guy who flip flops to become a pro-Trump person, like a lot of… I don't know, there have been a lot of politicians like that who have been distrusted, but maybe he's just famous enough that it doesn't matter. I'm not sure. We'll see as it goes on. There's a possibility that he weakens the enthusiasm of Trump voters, but I don't actually know.Jonathan Walton: They chanted “Hang Mike Pence.” So I don't put that beyond them, beyond anybody.Sy Hoekstra: I see. They can always separate Trump from anybody else, basically.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: He's the exception no matter what [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right, right, right.Vance Helps with the Tech World, but He's Unexperienced and Hasn't Accomplished MuchSy Hoekstra: Another thing about him is, well, there's a couple of things. One is he is, he was a pick, at least in part to court tech billionaires. He's a Peter Thiel protege. He's basically promising to deregulate all kinds of tech related things. He is helping Trump secure the support of Musk and Zuckerberg and everybody else.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So, I don't know. He was a strategic pick in that sense, I guess. He's also one that was a strategic pick when they were facing Joe Biden.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which they're not anymore, and it's an interesting, I don't know, it'll be a different kind of calculation. Now, I've heard some rumblings that some Republicans kind of regret the choice at this point because [laughs] it's gonna be such a different race.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's also incredible to me that the entire Republican ticket now has a total of six years of government experience [laughter]. It's just like, so Trump has done it for four years. Vance has done it for two, that's all we got. Six years.Jonathan Walton: Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: Kamala's got that beat like by multiples, by herself with no running mates [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right, right, right.Sy Hoekstra: So anyways, that's just kind of a remarkable thing. Vance is also totally, he hasn't done much in the Senate in terms of bills that he's introduced, but he has introduced things that haven't gone anywhere that are just like a bunch of transphobic and anti-DEI and all that kind of legislation. So he's been not doing much, but ideologically on doing the kinds of things that Trump wants a senator to do. So that's another part of the pick, which is also depressing. But let's move on from that sad one.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Biden Stepping Down, Harris Taking OverSy Hoekstra: Jonathan, what are we thinking about Biden stepping down and the almost certain, possibly the only legal available nomination of [laughter] Kamala Harris to be the President of the United States?The Dynamics of White Boomers Passing Power to Younger BIPOCJonathan Walton: So, yeah, the first thing that I thought of when Biden said he was stepping down was that I knew he was gonna step down when he got COVID.Sy Hoekstra: Huh.Jonathan Walton: I think that's a very interesting thing because when we were in California traveling this past few weeks, we knew four families that got COVID. And then I checked the numbers and I realized, oh, like the numbers in cities are going up because they're still testing water, right? And obviously the most susceptible people are older people and people with chronic health problems. And he is an older person [laughs]. Like, it was another thing…Sy Hoekstra: I don't know if you noticed.Jonathan Walton: …that says you're old, right? Like, and that, that Steve Bannon was right. He started the old train a long time ago, and it has run its course and run him out of the election. So I was not surprised that he was dropping out. The second thing about it though is, and I don't know if there's more writing about this. If you're listening to this and you have read some analysis or commentary, I'd love to read it. But I wonder how boomers are transitioning from positions of power, and if they are or not [laughs]. Because Joe Biden, I think, signifies a generation of people that don't know how to let go of power. And he said that in his speech. He said like, “I have to give up ambition.”And so I think that was an interesting, that's just an interesting thing to think about as there is a very significant, I think in the trillions of dollars' worth of transfers of wealth from that generation to their children and grandchildren. The billionaires that have been minted in the United States are just people inheriting money. So it's just a fundamentally different thing around wealth and power that's happening, I think, as it is power quote- unquote, is given from one older White man to a middle aged Black woman. Right? Black and South Asian. And so the other thing I thought about with Joe Biden is that he also was on the ticket that coordinated Obama.And so he's the meat in the middle of this sandwich that I think is also very interesting [laughs], that he leveraged his power to effectively potentially elect the first two Black presidents of the United States.Sy Hoekstra: Now, to be fair, he did run against the first one in the primary [laughs].Jonathan Walton: He did, and he lost, and then he joined a ticket, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.What We Can and Can't be Grateful to Biden ForJonathan Walton: And so, I think it's interesting that that's a thing. I will also say, for all the people, left, right, center, wherever you place yourself, thanking him and praising him and all these different things, I'm just not on that train.Sy Hoekstra: Huh? Why?Jonathan Walton: I've thought a little bit about this, and I'm continuing to think about this, but there's a tension that I feel generally for the processes and the participation and the hard decisions that we have to make every day that require necessary compromise and then violence as a result. And so when we talk about being grateful for things, like, “Oh, Jonathan, aren't you grateful for like soldiers, or grateful for America?” And it's like, the first thought that I have is, thankful to who for what? Who am I thanking, what am I thanking them for? And I think it's because I just have this resistance, and I desire this purity that only is found in Jesus. This purity, this wonder, this beauty, this justice, this love that is blemishless, right? So I find myself, it's very difficult for me to be like, “Thank you Joe for this work that you did 10 years ago, this work you did five years ago.” It's hard. I'm just like, you know, thanks.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I see.Jonathan Walton: Blessings on you on the rest of your life. I hope that you are able to flourish and receive all the things that God has. It's very general, very cursory. I don't carry this deep respect, appreciation or anything like that. And I think that just comes from like, I attach people to institutional violence and he represents a lot, a staggering amount of institutional violence. Even though he fought for lots of good things, it's like, yeah, it's hard for me to get on that appreciation bandwagon of the last 50 years of service.Sy Hoekstra: I totally understand that. I thought you were talking about, because a thing that I think you can acknowledge is difficult to do is to step down.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: In the situation that he's in, there are so many people telling him not to. It's so easy, especially if you have that ambition that he's obviously had his whole life.Jonathan Walton: For his whole life, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Decades, he has wanted to be president, right?Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. Right.Sy Hoekstra: And he just wants to hang onto it and…Jonathan Walton: Let me into the sandbox! Let me in [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And it's hard to just admit, “I'm tapped out guys. I can't do this anymore.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That is not an easy thing to do. And I do, in spite of all the criticisms that I a hundred percent agree with you with about the time that he spent in the presidency and in Congress and everything else, that's hard. And I can acknowledge when somebody did something hard that is helpful for the country [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: And because it is hard, I did not expect it. It's interesting that you did, but I didn't know that was coming.Harris and Why Representation is ImportantSy Hoekstra: I also, when it comes to Harris, who by the way, I said Kamala earlier. I'm trying not to do that, because it can't be that the two, Hillary and Kamala, we use their first names. Everybody else we use their last names [laughs].Jonathan Walton: The soft misogyny. I hear you, you're right.Sy Hoekstra: Everybody calls her Kamala though. It's like hard not to.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So I'm not the guy to explain why her running is so historically important in any detail, and there's gonna be a lot of very shallow attempts at talking about representation in the mainstream media. Which is why in the newsletter, I pointed people back to Tamice's book, because in the book that we published, Faith Unleavened, Tamice Spencer-Helms, the author, has a really great excerpt that we published and actually put as a episode of this podcast feed. I'll have the link in the show notes where she talks about, like Kamala Harris just comes at the end of the excerpt, but it's in the context of her talking about the stories of generations of women in her family and how they've served as a barrier or a bulwark against White religion and Whiteness destroying their lives.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the story ends in a scene that has never once failed to make me tear up [laughs] even though I edited it like 15 times [laughter] when we were making the book. It ends with her and her grandmother, and her grandmother's basically on her deathbed watching Kamala Harris get sworn in as vice president. And she does an incredible job of emphasizing the power and meaning of something like that happening without really talking about it. You know what I mean? It just is because it's part of her story as she puts it, like the story that Blackness is telling in America. So it's very, very good. If you haven't read it, I would go back and just grab a couple of tissues.And for me, I won't just let that story sit there, and the fact that it is important to sit there, because look, I have a lot of criticisms of Kamala Harris' policies [laughs] as a former prosecutor, as her foreign policy, as all those kinds of things, and I am willing to let all of that sit in tension together. And I will move on with my life, but I don't know if you have more thoughts about that, Jonathan.Resisting the Bigotry that Is Coming for HarrisJonathan Walton: Yeah. The only thing that I would say, and actually it's already happening. But the level of anti-Black, anti-woman, racist, misogynistic, patriarchal flood that is about to happen, will be unprecedented.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Online right now, even on Fox News, like on Fox News this morning, one of their commentators said, “Kamala Harris is the original ‘hawk tuah girl,' that's how she got to where she is.” Now, if you don't know what that is, I'm gonna explain it very quickly in ways that I hope are not dehumanizing to the person that actually did this and the people that it was said about. But there was a young woman who was taped on TikTok, who was asked about how to get a man more aroused. And she said, you gotta do that Hawk Tua, and that really gets them going. There's a slice of the internet, which we are all becoming more familiar with if you're online, that still desires the Girls Gone Wild videos of the 1990s, the centering of men constantly in sexual pleasure and relationships, and the picture of women only being able to succeed or excel if they are in service to men, and absolutely never achieving anything or earning anything on their own merit.And so I think Ketanji Brown Jackson, when she was certified and confirmed as a Supreme Court nominee, I think will give a slice of the anti DEI, anti CRT, anti-Black female, anti-female narrative, but that will pale in comparison to what we are about to see. And I think followers of Jesus need to resist that at every single level. At every single level if we can. Individual, in our own hearts, like us saying “Vice President Harris” is a way not to participate. Right? Like in an interpersonal level, like not… we have to check other people with this nonsense. And then in an institutional and ideological level, we actually need to communicate as followers of Jesus, that there is no place in the kingdom of God… and I would want to it to be nowhere in the world, for misogyny and misogynoir. Like this mix of anti-Blackness and anti-feminism and patriarchy. So that's the only other thing that I would say, is I just strongly desire in the most emphatic terms I can without using profanity that  [Sy laughs] we need to stand against them. We need to stand against that as followers of Jesus and people invested in the flourishing of other people and ourselves.Sy Hoekstra: It's going to happen. Like you said, it will be a ton. And just thinking back on all the absolute nonsense that was said about Obama over the eight years that he was president. I don't know how much we've progressed from there.Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: And so I just, it will be even worse…Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: As we've already seen, like you've said.Jonathan Walton: With all of that, there's a lot of things to process. There's frustration, anger, numbness, curiosity. Maybe some people are feeling peace. I don't know anybody who's feeling joyful about our political process right now. And so, as we are processing and trying to find hope in times of crisis and things that are difficult, I really want to commend to our listeners the resource that we created called Pace Yourself. So to pray, assess, collaborate, and establish, like to actually engage as a follower of Jesus in community for the long term.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: If you are someone who's sitting here listening and thinking to yourself, “I need a resource like this, I want community like this, I want to engage in this way,” if you're a subscriber already, it's in your inbox. Just search [laughs] in your KTF Press and look through your newsletters that you've received every Thursday. Also, if you are not a subscriber, you could get it for free. Just go to KTFPress.com and become a free subscriber. And it'd be better if you became a paid subscriber, but [laughs] I understand if you don't wanna do that right now. But go to KTFPress.com, become a free subscriber and get that resource. And I also want to comment to you like, we do not have to do these things alone. And so if you are a paid subscriber, you could also join our monthly chats and conversations so that there's a space. It may not be at your church, it may not be at your job, it may not be at your kitchen table. You'll at least have a one-hour Zoom call to talk with some people who want to be redemptive forces in the world. So we'll lay that out there as well.Sy Hoekstra: Absolutely. We've had two of them and they've been really great.Jonathan Walton: Amazing.Sy Hoekstra: And we hope we see you all at the next one.Introducing the Interview Guest, Robert Chao RomeroJonathan Walton: Now we're gonna get into our great interview with Robert Chao Romero. Professor Romero is an associate professor in the UCLA departments of Chicano and Chicana studies. Also, the Central American Studies Department and the Asian American Studies Department. He received his PhD from UCLA and Latin American History. He's also a lawyer with a JD from UC Berkeley. Romero is the author of several books, including Christianity and Critical Race Theory: A Faithful, Constructive Conversation, Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology and Identity, and The Chinese in Mexico: 1882-1940. The Chinese in Mexico received the best book award in Latino/ Latina studies from the Latin American Studies Association, and Brown Church received InterVarsity Press' Reader's' Choice Award for the best academic title.Romero is also an ordained minister and a faith rooted community organizer. Now, we talked to him about the everyday reality of the lives of immigrants under the Trump administration, what those lives tell us about the spiritual state of the MAGA movement, and the diverse and complicated politics of Latine voters in America. And guys, a lot more. Alright, let's get into the interview.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Robert, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today.Robert Romero: It's great to reconnect after a while.The Everyday Suffering of Immigrants under TrumpSy Hoekstra: Yeah, thank you. Just to get started, let's take a… I don't know, a kind of sad walk down memory lane [laughs]. Thinking back to the Trump administration, obviously you have a lot of experience both in immigration, the immigration law world, and in just the world of immigrant churches. And I'm wondering if you could give people a reminder or a picture of what the immigration world was like during the Trump administration.Robert Romero: Sure, I can share a story of one of my students. So in the beginning of the Trump administration, I was teaching a big lecture class, like 400 students. And there was a young woman who came up to me after class one day and said, “Professor Romero, can I get the lecture slides from the last few classes?” And I'm like, “Yeah, sure. What's happening?” And she said, “My mom has papers, she has legal documentation, but she was swept up by an immigration raid in her workplace, and I had to go home and watch my kids, and it took six days before we could find her.”Sy Hoekstra: Oh, wow.Robert Romero: And that's when I knew, oh my gosh, this is gonna be really bad. And so one of the things that launched things off in the Trump world with regards to immigration was an executive order that he passed, which took away any type of prioritization with regards to deportation. Now, the Obama administration was no friend to immigrants, and that's another conversation. But in theory, at least the Obama administration had a prioritization as to kind of who immigration would target as priorities for deportation. And on top of that list before was people with serious criminal convictions, who were undocumented with serious criminal convictions, and then families were at the very bottom. And there was kind of this internal policy. What the Trump administration did through that executive order is take away any type of prioritization, as imperfect as that prioritization was.So my student's mother and the people at her workplace, families, people who had worked in the US for 30 years, they were put on the same level and prioritization as someone who had many serious criminal offenses, for example. And I can tell you that also happened with Pastor Noe Carias that we worked with. He was an Assemblies of God pastor who came to the US in the eighties fleeing civil war. He had his own business, US citizen wife and two US citizen kids, and he was threatened to be deported. So many stories like that, it just created chaos and pain throughout the lives of millions of people.Sy Hoekstra: I'm glad that you brought up that one executive order deprioritizing things, because that's not something that made the headlines. And I know because my wife who listeners to the show would be familiar with, was an immigration attorney at the time, and she was dealing with all these tiny little things that did not make the headlines or whatever, that the Trump administration would just adjust, that would just make things that much harsher and that much more cruel on immigrants. And the result was like the human cost that you were just explaining. And then on the service providers on top of that, it was like if you have to drop everything you're doing and spend a bunch of time making new arguments or appealing cases, or in some cases dropping everything to bring a big class action lawsuit to try and stop some rule change or whatever, that is a decrease in your capacity, that then means you can't work with more people.Like my wife spent a lot of time where she was just taking no new cases on, she was just appealing all the cases that had been denied because of ridiculous rule changes that eventually got overturned. But in the meantime, a whole bunch of clients that would've been eligible for green cards lost the opportunity or whatever. And so I very much appreciate you bringing that perspective.Robert Romero: I remember another example. I remember at the time, the Diocese of San Antonio, Texas, that's one of the largest Catholic diocese in the whole country. They were trying to sponsor a special religious worker and [laughs] their application got denied because ICE wanted proof that they were a legitimate 501 C3 corporation [laughs] the Diocese of San Antonio.Sy Hoekstra: The Catholic church?Robert Romero: The Catholic church, yeah [laughs]. And it's like those kinds of shenanigans.Sy Hoekstra: Oh my gosh.MAGA's treatment of Immigrants Reveals a Lack of Spiritual DiscernmentJonathan Walton: Wow. Oh man. I'm gonna attempt to ask this question without going down too many rabbit trails because that just sounds ridiculous [laughs]. But in your essay, you said, “Jesus warns us soberly in Matthew 25, that our response to immigrants and the poor is a barometer of the sincerity of our relationship with God,” end quote. To you, what does all that stuff we just talked about reveal spiritually about the MAGA movement?Robert Romero: So that interpretation of Matthew 25, that our response to the poor and immigrants reflects our heart with God, that's an ancient tradition. Ancient Christian interpretation, thousands of years. And I think that what that reveals about the MAGA movement, it shows how much the culture of US nationalism that's embedded within MAGA has become so conflated with Christianity in the US that people have lost discernment. They've lost discernment. In other words, this is one of my reflections over the last couple of months. When you really get down to it, these issues that we're talking about, it's a discernment process, spiritual discernment process between what is culture, what is the gospel, what happens when the gospel becomes invited into a culture, and how do you distinguish between the gospel and culture?And now here's the tricky part [laughs]. The gospel has only expressed itself and always only expresses itself through culture. First the gospel came through the Jewish people, enculturated in that context, then became enculturated in the Greco-Roman Hellenistic context among Turkish people, among North Africans [laughs] among Persian people, among all these people. Then it became enculturated later on in more Western Europe, and then in about a thousand AD, like the Vikings, and Christianity becomes enculturated. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's just the reality. And theologians talk about a process though of discernment with regards to enculturation. What is a biblical contextualization of the gospel in a local culture and what's not.And what they say is that the way that you discern, is that in the context of the life of worship, we are to reflect upon scripture, upon the 2000-year-old tradition of the church. And to add Latino theology, en conjunto, or in community, with the local church, with the global church, with the church that's there with Jesus right now, even. And there has to be a continuity, a harmony between new scriptural interpretations and our ancestors that have gone before us. And so if you just run that test [laughs], that criteria, the MAGA movement through that doesn't make any sense. And we can talk more about that, but that's what I've been… thank you for giving me the chance to just throw that out on you, because that's what I've been thinking about. I've been dying to share it and to process it with people.Sy Hoekstra: The immediate response from people in the MAGA movement is, well, from Christians in the MAGA movement at least, would be, we're the orthodox ones and the people who oppose us are the ones with the new interpretations of scripture that are going off the rails and trying to destroy American culture and et cetera, et cetera.Robert Romero: Sure.Sy Hoekstra: So why are you coming to such a radically different conclusion?Robert Romero: So first of all, orthodoxy means right praise, correct praise. That's what it means. So, as we said, this criteria, the context of the life of worship. So as people are worshiping Jesus, we're bearing one another's burdens, we're taking communion, we're praying to God. That's the context first of all that this discernment takes place. And you look at scripture, 2000 verses of scripture that talk about God's heart for the poor, and the marginalized and immigrants, Matthew 25, among about a hundred other verses. So first of all, MAGA would've to contend with that. Tradition, the tradition of the church for 2000 years from the earliest church records where they said it in the Greco-Roman world. “These Christians are so strange. They worship this…” I'll just paraphrase, “They worship this Jesus, but they belong to every culture.You cannot distinguish them by their dress or their language or their clothing, but by the way, they love one another, and they care for those that are poor and marginalized.” And there is a historical record of 2000 years of the church. And what MAGA is doing, it is not in continuity with that 2000 years of church tradition en conjunto, in community, because as Americans, we're so individualistic. People think, I'm gonna go into my prayer chamber, I'm gonna pray for two days and whatever I come out thinking about immigrants, God spoke to me. Doesn't work that way. It's like in community, all these things, the context of the life of worship, scripture, tradition of 2000 years in community with the local church, the global church, and also what theologians talk about is like another principle of continuity again.Whatever MAGA is saying has to… MAGA Christians, at least, there has to be continuity with 2000 years. And if you look at the history, I challenge anybody, there's no continuity there. Anti-immigrant sentiment, there's no continuity. And so that's what I would say first and just to kind of throw out a big concept there, the major concept that we're talking about, it's called inculturation. Inculturation. And how does the gospel enter a culture and transform it? How does a gospel enter a culture and heal it? But sometimes what happens is that a culture can become so culturally Christian that people confuse just the culture with the gospel. And if you run through this criteria, this ancient criteria of discernment, you'll find that's why prophets arise. And that's what's happened with MAGA.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. That's a helpful distinction, I think. Because you could also say, well, there's another tradition starting with the eastern half, the Roman Empire becoming Christian and creating Christian empires for a couple thousand years, right? But I think you're saying that just the phrase, “that's why prophets arise” [laughs], I think is the helpful distinction for me. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: You write about this a little bit in Brown Church, your other great book. There's this unhealthy syncretism, this marriage that has happened. And when you said the word “Orthodoxy” I immediately thought of a conversation I had with a wonderful person on Instagram. I am being facetious. But she said Israel is a nation ordained by God to exist in all these different things around 1948. And then and she said that's the orthodox view, is what she said. What would be your response to someone who divorces their belief in Jesus from the scriptural basis of Jesus and the tradition of, that missión integral, the conjunto that you're talking about, when they make that divorce, what do you do besides go to your prayer closet and pray for them [laughter]?Robert Romero: Yeah. I think that you go to the roots. If those of us who call ourselves Christians, we follow Jesus, and Jesus lived in history in a very specific moment in time, and he had 12 disciples and apostles, and he shared a message with them that he was the Messiah expected by the Jewish community. And that through this Messiah, the whole world would be transformed and saved and redeemed, there's a core message that was passed on from Jesus to the 12, to the leaders, the bishops that they appointed, to established churches. And there was, for the first 300 years of the church, lots of writings, lots [laughs] that established orthodoxy.So there was a core orthodoxy that Jesus established to use that term. I mean, it's anachronistic. Core message. That core Christian message was passed on to the 12. The 12 passed it on a majority consensus as to what that core was, to leaders that they appointed in Egypt, in Turkey [laughs], in Persia, in North Africa. And they had people that they appointed, and there were writings that developed. So, in other words, what I'm saying is you can trace what this major consensus of orthodoxy was pretty clearly through the historical record. And this is what I'm saying about history [laughs]. If you put MAGA through that, it's not in harmony with it.I'll say this though, if you use this criteria, this healthy criteria that have been established by theologians over the millennia, Christianity is not the same as the left either. I wanna make that clear as possible [laughs]. There are lots of Christians who make the same mistake and conflate Christianity with the cultural left, and it's not the same either. So there's room for abundant nuance and complication, but at the same time, there is a complicated, thoughtful process. And one of the things that disturbs me so much is that for the last five or 10 years, with all of the social disruptions in every arena of society, you have this positive desire to try to figure it out. Like what's right, what's wrong? And you have some people who are just holding on to this cultural Christianity, this cultural nationalism as indistinguishable from Christianity.You have some folks who are at the same time going the other extreme and throwing away 2000 years of very imperfect, but still the Christian movement. And things are just so disruptive, this process, I would hope this criteria again, and this is a work in progress for me, of we discern the difference between Christ and culture. We discern what aspects of culture are positive reflections of the gospel or not, or what's represents cultural impurity and what represents the unique reflection of the image of God through culture. We discern that. And I wanna share a quote that I think expresses the mess of the last 500 years. This is from an article by a Filipino theologian, José De Mesa. He's one of my favorite theologians.He is citing missionaries who were going to go to China in 1659. The quote again from 1659, “Can anyone think of anything more absurd than to transport France, Italy, or Spain or some other European country to China? Bring them your faith, not your country.”Jonathan Walton: There you go.Robert Romero: That's it [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Bring them your faith, not your country.Robert Romero: Bring them your faith, not your MAGA movement.Reacting to People Who Think Voting Won't Make a Difference for ImmigrantsSy Hoekstra: I wanna transition a little bit because everything we've talked about so far is a little bit aimed at the MAGA movement, or at White Christians in America. But again, talking about my wife, her family is from Haiti, and during the 2020 election, she made some calls for the Biden campaign down to Miami and to, there's a lot of Haitian voters there, it's a swing state, they needed people calling. So she called potential Haitian American voters and was talking to them about the election. And she had some fascinating conversations [laughs]. But she had a couple people in particular who I think represent a certain segment of immigrants or the one or two generations after immigrants to the US who are not White.And they basically said, what on earth is the point of voting for Biden versus Trump? You were talking before about the Obama administration, and they were just like, Trump, Obama, Bush, we get treated the same. We get deported, we get forgotten, we get left behind. We get approached every four years to put somebody in power who then doesn't really do anything for us. What do you say to that kind of hopelessness?Robert Romero: Yeah. First of all, I totally get it and understand it, because it feels that way so much, so often. So I would first approach it on that level of like, okay, let's process. What are we feeling here? I get it. And then I would say, well, I guess I have a response just as a human being, and then a response as a Christian. So those are kind of related, but different things. I mean, just as a human being, as a US citizen, there was a substantial difference in the treatment of immigrants under the Trump administration. It was just like, it made people suffer. Millions of more people suffered in very specific ways when the policies changed under Trump. Again, under Obama, again, I don't think that he is perfect either, and he caused a lot of harm, but things were way worse. They got way worse.We didn't think they could be, but they got in very practical, specific ways under Trump. So depending upon who we vote for with respect to this topic of immigration, it makes a difference. It makes a huge difference. And that's because every president has the constitutional authority to set immigration policy on their own. They can't pass immigration laws, that's Congress's job, but they can pass hundreds of policies carte blanche, which is what Trump did, at their own discretion and mess people's lives up. That's what I would say. Like just as a human being, and in terms of Trump's potential to come back into office. Just as a human being, oh my gosh, I want our democracy to just survive.And he's signaled so many times that he's willing to just overturn the rule of law, and we can talk about that too. So that's just as a human being. Now, as a Christian [laughs], it's like, I know that there's no perfect candidate, and Jesus is not a Republican or a Democrat. And I know people go off the rails on both sides. At the same time, Christians, I think in good faith, can hold some different political perspectives. If we do that, run through that discernment process that I mentioned, we can come to good faith differences of opinion. We really can. That's just a hundred percent true.Jonathan Walton: I like how you said good faith differences.Robert Romero: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That feels very [laughs] very important.Robert Romero: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Because I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I would love to see an experience like good faith differences, where the other person isn't just dehumanized to the point of like, it's okay to do violence. That the reality that the first step towards violence against someone is dehumanization.Robert Romero: Yeah.The Diversity of Latine Voting and Politics in the USJonathan Walton: And so can we have good faith disagreement. And going along with that, I listen to a lot of podcasts, read a lot of news, sometimes healthily, sometimes to just cope, I think the information [laughs]. But a lot of media outlets like The Run-Up on the New York Times, or Politico, or NPR, they make a big deal out of polling, saying Latine voters, particularly men, are somewhat more pro-Trump than they have been in recent years. And like, what are your thoughts on that talking point? And the diversity of Latin experiences and political thought in America?The Effect of Latin America's Racist History, and its Leftist DictatorshipsRobert Romero: Yeah. I mean, I don't doubt that those stats are somewhat true. I mean, I don't know. I haven't studied them. But I think that within, again we talk about this inculturation process, and how the gospel gets interwoven with bad aspects of culture, sinful even. And, but how the gospel also at the same time, when it engages a culture, it transforms the culture and heals the culture too. And our diverse Latin American Latino peoples, we've got both [laughs]. We have the sin [laughs] and our own colonial history of 500 years that is just as racist as the US history. Just as racist. And so I think that when it comes to more people supporting Trump, and I want to distinguish the support of Trump from a pre-Trump Republican party.Again, not that it was perfect or anything, but I wanna make that distinction [laughs], because there are some Latinos who just feel more aligned with again, the Republican party 15 years ago or something, for some reasons that are not entirely bad. Now, the folks that support Trump and Trump's racism, again, we're super, the Latino people are so diverse in every way imaginable. Politically, socially, economically, racially, ethnically, culturally, religiously. So I wanna make that disclaimer. But at the same time, we have our own 500 years of racism and colonial racist values that are within us. And so if a Latino male voter says, I like Trump because he's just, because I wanted to kick out all the immigrants or something like that, [laughs] then that's where that comes from.And it also comes from holding racist values in Latin America, bringing it here and wanting to fit into the racial system here. I'll say one last example. So in Latin America, for 500 years to this present day, there's a legacy of everybody wants to be called Spanish, quote- unquote.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Robert Romero: Because you had a racial hierarchy and caste system officially for about… let's see, 1492 to 1820 officially, this caste system. And just like in the US, you had a certain legal caste system, these terms of White, which was a legal category, Black, Indian and so forth. In Latin America you had the same thing, but the different terms. They were like Spanish and Black and Indian and Mestizo and Mulatto. And at one point they had dozens of terms. But that created the society in which people who were social climbers wanted to be considered Spanish. And to this day, some people will say that I'm Spanish. And doesn't mean… it's fine if someone's like, if someone immigrated from Spain to Mexico that's great. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about like, no one in their family has been to Spain like in 400 years.So Spanish is sort of, saying I'm Spanish is like a MAGA person saying, “Well, I'm White,” or something. It's like this, it can be. Not always so extreme, but now imagine someone that comes from that context in say Mexico, I can speak for my own context. They come to the US, they find a different racial hierarchy, and they wanna fit in with power. So you become Ted Cruz.Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. This is true.Robert Romero: You become Marco Rubio. Where you're willing to sort of just like… Actually, this is the term, this is another use of the term enculturation. You enculturate yourself fully to the dominant White racist narrative so that you can gain acceptance. And that's what happens. And so I think that some of those Latino Trump voters, again, if they're doing it, I mean, there's other reasons too. But if they're doing it because as an explicit endorsement of anti-immigrant policies, then I would say this is a lot of what's going on. Now, to be fair, some Latinos, and not without reason, are kind of scared off by, like they come from socialist countries that have really in a lot of pain and hurt. And they hear someone on the extreme left of the Democratic party reminding them too much of what it was like in Nicaragua [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Or Cuba or whatever.Robert Romero: Or Cuba. Yeah, I mean, I remember I was talking to a Cuban taxi driver who had just come to the US five years ago, and he said, “I'd rather someone shoot me than send me back to Cuba.” That's what he said. So it's like, I think there's that going on too. Again, not that that's a hundred percent right or whatever, but it's understandable and I get it too.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, right.Robert Romero: So yeah. Some people just vote Republican no matter what, because of those reasons, and those are not just for no reason.Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right. There's a history and a context there too that all, all that makes sense. All that makes sense.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for that question and all the other insight you've given us. If people want to follow you online or see some of your work, where would you point them?Robert Romero: Sure. So my full name is Robert Chao Romero, C-H-A-O. And if you use that name, you can find me in all the usual places.Jonathan Walton: There aren't a lot of Chao Romeros out there, you sure? [laughs].Robert Romero: Yeah [laughs]. There was one. One person wrote me actually [laughs], but other than him, I think I'm the only one. [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: A guy wrote you just to say we have the same name, I can't believe it [laughter]?Robert Romero: Yeah He was in Brazil or something and he is like, “Is this a coincidence?” But anyways, it's neither here nor there, but, so if you look up my name, you can find me in the usual places, social media.Sy Hoekstra: Great.Jonathan Walton: Nice. Nice.Sy Hoekstra: They'll find all your books [laughs]. And we've put some of them in our newsletter and some of the other stuff, and we highly recommend all of it.Robert Romero: Thank you.Sy Hoekstra: So thank you so much for being with us on the show today. We really appreciate it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, thank you so much.Robert Romero: It's my pleasure.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Thank you all so much for listening. Please remember to support what we do and keep this work going beyond this election season. Go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Get all the bonus episodes of this show, access to those monthly subscriber chats we were talking about earlier and a lot more. You can also get the anthology and read Professor Romero's essay and everybody else's essays at keepingthefaithbook.com. Alright. Our theme song as always is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale, editing by Multitude Productions. We thank you all so much for being here, and we will see you in two weeks.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, sheaking Jesus... What? Sheaking?Sy Hoekstra: Sheaking Jeshush.Jonathan Walton: I don't even know what that means. Okay, [Sy laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

On today's episode, Jonathan and Sy are talking all about conspiracy theories with Matt Lumpkin, a former minister and software developer. They discuss:-        Asking what it is that conspiracy theories accomplish for the people who believe them-        Why White Evangelicals are so susceptible to conspiracy theories right now-        The importance of churches helping people develop critical thinking, rather than outsourcing belief systems to authority figures-        How we can help people let go of conspiracy theories-        And after the interview, a fascinating conversation about despair in the face of violence like that in Palestine, prioritizing the vulnerable, and Albert CamusMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Matt's website, Mattlumpkin.com-            Matt's Instagram-            The podcast episode on Palestine and CamusCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Matt Lumpkin: You notice almost all of these conspiracy theories provide a way to stay in the old way of thinking and being. They want to make America great again. They want to go back to a time when things made sense, when White people were powerful, and no one questioned their gender. They want to go back, right? [laughs] And if you look at the prophets, the biblical prophets, yes, they're interested in what happened before, but they're more interested in saying, how do we move forward from this? As I try to sift through and make sense of who are the voices that are worth listening to, one of the litmus tests I use is, does it ask anything from me? If the story only makes me feel good, if it only affirms my existing Identity, then that's a red flag for me.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Get ready for an incredible interview from our series where we're bringing on authors from the anthology we published in 2020, Keeping the Faith: Reflection on Politics & Christianity in the Era of Trump & Beyond. Today, we're talking all about the world of right-wing conspiracy theories with Matt Lumpkin [laughs]. But don't worry, it's nowhere near as depressing as it sounds [Sy laughs]. Matt is really interested in figuring out how people make meaning out of their lives and circumstances, so we focus on what the benefits of believing in conspiracy theories are for the people who subscribe to them, why Conservative White Christians are so susceptible to conspiracy theories in this historical moment, and what we are learning from comparing conspiracy theories with biblical prophets and a whole lot more.Sy Hoekstra: It's a really good conversation. Matt actually does a pretty good job of taking us through his bio in the conversation, so I won't do that now, except to say he's a Fuller Seminary grad who worked as a hospital chaplain for a while and then actually made his way into the world of software development. So that is what he does now. His essay in our anthology was called “What Job Is a Conspiracy Theory Doing?” And you can find the anthology at www.keepingthefaithbook.com. After the interview with Matt, hear our thoughts on the interview, plus our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our free weekly newsletter. Today, we're talking about a really interesting podcast episode comparing the French Algerian War to the violence in Palestine right now, all through the lens of the Algerian philosopher Albert Camus. You don't want to miss that one, it'll be a fascinating conversation.Before we dive in, like we've been saying, we need your support, and we need it now. If you like what you hear and read from KTF Press and you want it to continue beyond this election season, please become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com that's our Substack, and share our work with anyone you think might be interested. If you're already a paying subscriber, consider upgrading to our founding member tier.And if the price to subscribe is too high and you want a discount, just write to us at info@ktfpress.com. We'll give you whatever discount you want, no questions asked. Every little bit helps. Subscribers get all the bonus episodes of this show, monthly Zoom discussions with the two of us and a lot more. So please go sign up at KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and join us in seeking Jesus and confronting injustice. Thank you so much.Jonathan Walton: All right, let's get into our interview with Matt Lumpkin.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Matt Lumpkin, thank you so much for being with us on Shake the Dust today.Matt Lumpkin: I'm so glad to be here. It's great to meet both of you. I've been a fan of y'all's work since I learned about you and started following the publishing, but also some of Jonathan's work on Instagram. I learn things from almost every post, so really appreciate that.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that. Thanks so much.Sy Hoekstra: It's very nice to talk to you not in emails and document comments on your essays or whatever [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. Well, it was a lovely process working with you all on the book chapter, and I love asynchronous first working patterns, so that makes me very happy. But it's great to actually be chatting and get to learn a little bit more about you guys and talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that you want to get into.How Matt Started Thinking about the Ways People Make Meaning in Their LivesMatt Lumpkin: Just a bit about me up front. So raised very Evangelical, very fundamentalist, frankly Baptist, with a [laughs] very Pentecostal grandmother. So right out the gate, you have two frameworks [laughs] who don't agree on what's true, but are both family [laughter]. So that's my religious upbringing. And then I spent early years in my career working as a hospital chaplain. I also spent some time living outside the country, taught English in Indonesia and traveled around Southeast Asia and all of those things. When I actually did end up in grad school at Fuller Theological Seminary, I had a lot of questions [laughs]. I had a lot of big questions around, how does a religion work? How do people make meaning? How do people put their meaning-making frameworks together and this language of what job is this doing? These are questions I've been asking for a long time in the course of my time at Fuller. I was there for about a decade studying part time and then working, doing a lot of online course design, and a lot of building and experimenting with online spaces, building mobile apps to test out different psychological principles, and all the way into building products.There's a product now called Fuller Equip that's still alive and kicking that I designed and built with several colleagues. So in my early career, I brought all those questions to Fuller, which is a very Evangelical space, but also a pretty… Fuller is like a bridge.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: It's a bridge from where you start to, usually somewhere different. And then a lot of people walk across that bridge, and they look back and they're like, “Man, why is this place so like still connected to that place I came from?” And it's like, because it's a bridge [laughter] and it needs to still be there so that other people can walk across. But so much goodness came from my time there, and just in terms of really expanding my understanding. I had a very narrow idea of what calling meant, a very narrow idea of what I meant to be faithful to God. And that in my mind [laughs], by the time I was 14 years old, that meant I need to be a pastor, preacher in a small church like the kind I grew up in.And it was at Fuller where I really… and my work in, all different kinds of work in early life, especially as a chaplain, was about finding a space to be faithful to that calling and that identity, while also being the person that I am who's endlessly curious about people, endlessly curious about how do things work, and what's really going on versus what people say is going on, and just how do people think about things in their own way. So in the course of doing that work, I found my way into designing software. All kinds of software, from websites and mobile apps to now in the last five or six years, I've been working on diabetes software and supporting people who live with type 1 as well as type 2 diabetes.And all those same skills I bring to bear of getting into the mindset of other people, really deeply trying to enter their world and understand what does it look like. What are the problems, what are the pain points, and then what might actually move the needle to change it? But this background in studying religion formally, studying psychology, studying cultural anthropology, these lenses are all things that I use in my work as a designer, but also [laughs] in my attempts to make meaning of this rapidly evolving landscape we live in.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Asking What Job a Conspiracy Theory Does for its BelieversSy Hoekstra: Yeah. Speaking of how things operate in people's minds versus how they say things are operating [laughter], let's jump right into your essay, which is all about conspiracy theories. And your kind of framework for understanding conspiracy theories is right there in the title, it's what job is a conspiracy theory doing? So I just want to start with, when you hear Trump talking about having the election stolen, or you hear someone talking about QAnon or whatever, why is the question, “What job is this theory doing?” the basis for how you understand what's going on with that person?Moving to Empathy and Curiosity Instead of AngerMatt Lumpkin: Yeah. So there's a few reasons. One is to move me to a space of empathy, because I don't know about you all, but I get real mad [laughs] at times about some of the just really hurtful and harmful ideas that get spread around that have no basis in fact very often, and actively harm people. It's one thing to make up a story that makes you feel good if that doesn't hurt anybody else, but a lot of these stories really create a lot of harm. So this is a step for, it's a pragmatic step for me to step out of anger, frustration, let me just push you away to get curious of what is going on here? Because so many of the stories, I think I talk about the lizard people [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Matt Lumpkin: That one takes me back to V. Did you guys watch V in the 80s? There was this lizard people, body snatchers, terrible, I don't recommend it. These people unzipping like masks and there are lizards underneath.Jonathan Walton: Yes! I do remember that. Yes [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: It terrified me as a kid. I walked in the living room one time and saw it. That's always where my mind goes when I hear those stories and I think, “Wow, how could you believe this?” So the question of, “What job is this doing?” is a way to get me out of my judgmental reactive and into getting curious about this person and what is it doing. It also connects to my work as a designer. There's a framework that we use in design called “jobs to be done” and thinking about digital products. And basically, you ask yourself, “If this piece of software were going to get hired to do this job, what would it need to do? What are the jobs to be done? And what would it get fired over?” Like if you don't do this thing, are you going to lose the job?So kind of a way of moving out of the emotional space and into the curiosity space. But also when I say the way that they say something is different from the way that they think it, we all do this. We all have cognitive biases we're unaware of, and it's not like anybody's a particular failure for having a bias that they don't see. So when I talk to people about the software that I've designed, I'm not just going to ask them, “Do you like it?” People will always tell you, “Yeah, yeah, I like it.” I have lots of strategies that I use to get behind that and understand on a more deeper level like, is this doing the job for you?What Do Conspiracy Theories Accomplish for People Who Believe Them?Matt Lumpkin: So when I came to these conspiracy theories and was just hearing these things I just couldn't fathom why or how someone come to that conclusion, what was the context? It was the pandemic. We were in the midst of the pandemic and a lot of this was happening. All the rules and the maps that people had to make sense of their world were not working anymore. And as a person who's lived outside the US and experienced culture shock directly, when your maps don't work, it is profoundly disorienting.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: You feel like a child again.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: You feel really vulnerable because you don't know how to act in a way that makes sense. I believe that that sense of disorientation, cultural disorientation, social disorientation, religious disorientation, that is the driver. That's what makes people reach out and grab onto these ideas. And frankly, I think it's what makes con men and people who are aware of this dynamic pop up. These periods of time are ripe for cons because people are looking for a way to get their feet under them again, so to speak, in a world that feels confusing and uncertain. So that's a number of different things. It's empathy, it's about moving to curiosity and away from anger, and it's also just pragmatically, what's going on here?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: What's the real value? What's the real driver here? Because it's doing something for you, whether you're conscious of it or not. People don't change their minds easily until the pain of changing your mind is more than the pain of holding on to the original ideas. So I think a lot of these conspiracy theories or strategies are ways of hanging on to old ideas that are unraveling, and they're ways of saying, we can discount this proof for this evidence here because the conspiracy supplies this idea of, “Well, the conspiracy is designed to hide things from here. It's designed not have evidence so it's okay if we don't have evidence.” Has all these logic loopholes that get people out of the normal social contract that we have when we talk in public [laughter] saying things that are true.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: Or saying things that can be checked or are credible. And I think the broader challenge that we're in is… You know, I got into working in technology after studying church history and understanding that the printing press is really a catalyst of the complete social and political upheaval of Europe.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: It's that moment that breaks the way people put meaning together, because it suddenly increases literacy and increases the speed in transmission of ideas. And I woke up and realized we are in the middle of a Gutenberg moment here. We are 25, 30 years into the internet, and we're just beginning to see the epistemic crisis, the crisis of how we know what we know really come to fruition.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: So I think that's the broader context of wanting to get curious about this, because that's the broad context. The narrow context is pandemic, the narrow context is like… there's lots of other things that push people to this feeling of disorientation.Jonathan Walton: Right.Just Providing Correct Facts Won't Change MindsMatt Lumpkin: And so I'm looking for, how is the thing that you believe that is obviously wrong or factually disprovable to me, what does it do for you? Because just pounding on people with facts has been scientifically shown to not change people's minds.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.Matt Lumpkin: It will not work.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. What you just said makes sense, yet we love to do it.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Right? [laughs] We love to just pelt people with answers.Matt Lumpkin: Some of us do, some of us have minds that are more… and I'm guilty. I have this deep internal need that's probably related to ways in which my brain may not be 100 percent standard equipment[Sy laughs]. This internal need to make things consistent. Like if I encounter a new piece of information that doesn't match my map of the world, I've got to figure out how the information is wrong, or I've got to change my map. And I can't really rest until I've done it. But that's not most people. And there are parts of my life and thinking where I don't do that as rigorously, but there's a lot public space safety questions, questions of [laughs] science and medicine, those are ones in which I do need my model to be accurate, because those models have literally saved the lives of people that I love. Like the practice of science, the scientific methods saved my daughter's life when she was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes.We knew before the doctors did, because we gathered data, we gathered evidence, and then we were able to show that evidence. So it satisfied our way of knowing, like we measured it. It's not just family worries. It's not just parents being nervous. It's grounded in real observation that we can then hand you. But there's a lot of domains where people aren't used to doing that kind of rigor.Why Are White Evangelicals So Susceptible to Conspiracy Theories Right Now?Mat Lumpkin: As we think about the Evangelical context, one of the things I explore in the essay is why are Evangelicals particularly, do they seem to be particularly vulnerable to these kinds of erroneous claims or conspiratorial claims? I feel that that's true, and I started to pay more attention to it when I noticed other non-Christian journalists were noticing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: Like, “Hmm, the Evangelicals are really buying this QAnon to our surprise. Outside it doesn't seem it would match,” same with a lot of Trumpism.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: A lot of Trump's ideology and way of being in the world seems very antithetical to what popular conceptualization of Jesus followers would be, and yet, it's working. So why? What job is it doing?Jonathan Walton: I'd love for you to dive deeply into that. Why do you think White Evangelicals are particularly susceptible right now?Matt Lumpkin: Thank you for that correction as well. Because I do think that it is a specific challenge to White Evangelicals, and I don't see it spreading and being shared in the same way among Evangelicals that I know that are not White.Discouraging Critical Thinking about What Authority Figures SayMatt Lumpkin: So a couple of things. One, just a general lack of rigor in how you know what you know. And why would Evangelicals have a lack of rigor and how they know it? Why would they? It's a tradition that literally emerged from people, the deep Protestant move to want to read the Bible for yourself and, but what does that do? That centers the self and the individual in the private prayer time, in the quiet time, as the source of authority.If you want to go deeper into that space, and I say this as somebody who has many Pentecostal folks in my family who was raised in no small part by my Pentecostal grandmother, and my mom, her faith is deeply shaped by Pentecostalism. But that tradition really centers the individual experience of the deity and of their experience of God as a source of truth and authority. Well, you hang around with more than one Pentecostal and you're going to find you get differing accounts of what God might be saying in any given time.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: So that kind of flexibility and fuzziness, and in folks that move in these spaces, they're really clever at saying, “Well, that didn't mean this, it meant this now, now that I know this other thing”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: So it's very changeable in a way that's very coherent with the way that you see a lot of QAnon folks or a lot of other conspiracy theorists say, “Well, we got this piece of evidence, and so now what we said last week doesn't work anymore, but don't worry, I've got a new way to read Revelation that actually accounts for it” [Jonathan laughs]. And so that practice and that move being modeled by leaders and authority figures in these churches creates this receptivity to a kind of very, I want to use the word lazy, but that's maybe a bit harsh, but it's a lack of rigor in questioning, “What did you tell me last week [laughs], and what did you tell me this week, and why is it not the same?”Authoritarian Methods of Learning TruthMatt Lumpkin: And all of that stems from what I would say in many churches is an authoritarian epistemology.Sy Hoekstra: I was going to say it's kind of a lack of accountability, which goes along with authoritarianism.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. I think I touched on this briefly in the essay that, when your foundation of what you know is because an authority told you, who that authority is claiming that it comes straight from God or it comes straight from the source who's deeply embedded in the deep state, those are both parallel claims. Like, “I've got a direct line, so you can trust me.” But that is a very brittle way of building a model of reality, because you're not doing it yourself. You've outsourced it to the authority, in spite of any claims you might be making to doing your own research. It's a way of saying, “Well, I can't read the text in its original Greek or Hebrew, so I'm just going to outsource that to somebody who can.” “Well, I can't understand necessarily these theological concepts, so I'm just going to trust my pastor to do that.”Well, once you get in the habit of outsourcing all these things that are at the root of your most deeply held beliefs about reality and truth, then that's a move that you're accustomed to making. And it's a dangerous move, because without a practice of critical thinking and of questioning for yourself, critical thinking is the immune system for your mind. If you don't have it, you won't notice that it's getting colonized or infected with bad ideas.Jonathan Walton: A thousand percent [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: And you won't be able to spot those infections as they make you sick and as they make your communities sick. I think what we're seeing right now is a time in which a lot of these ideas and these ways of… it's not just ideas, it's ways of thinking and ways of knowing that are very, very changeable and very flexible and fluid. They lack a certain rigor. That's happening because, why? Because people are reaching out for a way to hang on to the old map. You notice almost all of these conspiracy theories provide a way to stay in the old way of thinking and being. They want to make America great again. They want to go back to a time when things made sense, when White people were powerful and no one questioned their gender.They want to go back [laughs]. And if you look at the prophets, which is in the chapter that we're discussing here, the biblical prophets, yes, they're interested in what happened before, but they're more interested in saying, “How do we move forward from this?” As I try to sift through and make sense of who are the voices that are worth listening to, the people that are interested in trying to understand how we got where we are today, so that we can understand how we can get out of this mess, what actions we can take. Those are the voices that I think are more… One of the litmus tests I use is, does it ask anything from me? If the story only makes me feel good, if it only affirms my existing identity, then that's a red flag for me, because it's only flattering me.Now, on the flip side, if you read the book of Revelation, that book is written to a community that it's trying to encourage that community that's being marginalized, it's suffering. And it does ask some things of that community, but it's also trying to celebrate. So there aren't really easy and clean [laughs] answers on which voices you can trust, you have to do the work of doing your own critical thinking. But I think Evangelicals in general have been discouraged in many churches from doing any critical thinking at all, because it undermines the authority of the lead pastor or the leadership team or whomever…Sy Hoekstra: The denomination or whoever.Jonathan Walton: …that they've outsourced all of this work to.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. And that might seem… I've been to seminary, I have a Master's of Divinity degree. I get frustrated when people don't listen to my authority [laughter]. You work in any number of church settings and you realize you don't want them to. What you really want is you want to teach people how to build their own faith and their own meaning using these tools, and do it in community, so that we can check each other's work.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: In my early work as a hospital chaplain, I spent a year doing spirituality support groups with the folks that were in the lockdown unit in the psych ward.Sy Hoekstra: Oh wow.Matt Lumpkin: So we're talking about doing spirituality groups with people that have schizophrenia, that have bipolar disorder, that sometimes in their mind hear the voice of God telling them to do things. Now, how do you help a person like that connect with their faith, now that their very way of knowing or having that connection is now called into question? It's a hard problem, but that's really where I started to wake up to this reality of the problematic nature of, “God talks to me, and then I go do a thing.” There are lots of stories in the Bible where that happens, and some of them are terrifying, but it is always an interpretive choice that we make to say that, “I had an experience, and I believe it was God speaking to me,” best done in community with people that you trust.I kind of wish Abraham had talked to some of his community of faith before taking Isaac up on the hill. That's a terrifying story of somebody not raising questions about what they thought they heard from God.Conspiracy Theorists vs. Biblical Prophets; Blaming “Them” vs. Inviting IntrospectionSy Hoekstra: The community point is very well taken, and also you've said it, but I want to just highlight it for the audience, because I think that the point about profits versus conspiracy theorists being the people who require something of you versus the people who require nothing of you is so important. And you are right, it is so within the culture of Evangelicalism, definitely within the culture that I grew up in, to say that everything that is wrong with the world is because of those people out there, and has nothing to do with us, and we do not need to reflect, we do not need to change, they need to become like us. And that is that colonial type of faith that you were just talking about. Everyone else needs to become like me, and then the world would be fine.Matt Lumpkin: That's a litmus test.Sy Hoekstra: It's a litmus test, but I also want to highlight the prophets being the people who against what everybody else, not what everybody else, but what in many cases everybody else in their society wanted them to do, we're suggesting the problem here might actually be us [laughter], and we need to take some time and think about how it might be us, and have some real reflection as a community. And that is actually what God wants us to do. So having a faith that is oriented around that versus a faith that is oriented around blaming the world for everything, those are faiths that go in polar opposite directions. And I want that to be everyone's red flag [laughs] is what I'm saying, and I really appreciated when you made that point your essay.Matt Lumpkin: As a designer, we use “how might we” questions when we don't know the answer [laughs]. How might we encourage faith communities to develop a healthy critical thinking and awareness of religious abuse and manipulation? I mean, religion is powerful. It's how many, many of us, most humans, make sense of their reality and situate themselves in the cosmic story and understand who they are and what their life is about. And yet it is so often used to manipulate people, to sway people, to create specific emotional experiences for people, so that whoever's doing the manipulation can get something that they want. And how might we create communities of faith that are resilient against manipulation, resilient against co-option by, I like y'all's term “colonial power” or “colonized faith?”I think it's a great lens to think about the ways in which the Evangelical tradition, which when I teach my kids about where Evangelicals came from, because I've studied this church history, abolition, that was Evangelicals. So many of the really positive expressions, I think, of Christian faith have also been a part of this tradition. So how did we get co-opted by fear and a desire to go back in time to some imagined past? How did so many churches and church people get co-opted in that way? I talk a little bit about the first time I encountered it. I'm 42, dispensationalism was around, but it wasn't a part of my church community.Sy Hoekstra: Which is just, briefly, for people who don't know.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. Dispensationalism is the idea that… oh boy. So it's pretty young as a theological movement, I think, around 100 years. And in fact, it's a really great propaganda strategy if you want to have your religious idea emerge from the grassroots, you just print up a Bible, a study Bible. Scofield Study Bible has a lot of these connections drawn for pastors. They gave them away, they printed them up and shipped them out to pastors all across the country. Twenty years later, lots of people came up with dispensationalism, simultaneously invented. It's a really great propaganda strategy, worthy of Dune [laughter]. It laid those foundations early. But it only took 20 years in America for this idea, and this idea being that Jesus is going to come back and take away the faithful, but then real bad stuff's going to happen on earth, trials and tribulations are going to happen.And then in some versions there's a showdown with Jesus and Satan, in other versions there's not. Then it gets pretty divergent, and you can find really cool maps of this in old bookstores where people try to map it out because it's impossible to explain.Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: And then the churches that I was around in my early theological study were obsessed with arguing over whose version of dispensationalism was right. And then you dig into it and you're like, this is a novel idea [laughs], it doesn't even go back very far in church history. So it's a great example of a way a theological concept takes hold and then gives people a lot of busy work to do, to go home and read Scripture and try to mix and match and come up with a way that makes sense of it. So The Late Great Planet Earth was the antecedent to the Left Behind books, which were big time when I was in college. And all of that is based on this idea of dispensationalism, that there's going to be an antichrist arise and then all these switcheroos and people get taken away [laughs].Like the rapture, it literally comes from the same word that we get raptor, the birds of prey, because some people are snatched away, not a good image. I don't want to be taken like that actually. That doesn't seem a positive [laughter]. So all this to say, those ideas, when did they emerge? They emerged during the Cold War. They emerged when kids were having to duck and cover under the [laughs] idea that's going to save you from an atomic blast. Like real terrifying existential stuff going on that causes people to look around and say, “This is causing me anxiety. I am terrified all the time. How can I not be terrified?” And a lot of these moves, they go back, or they look for a scapegoat to blame.And that's really, I think, one of the most harmful and most important litmus tests to hang on to. I don't like the word litmus test. I would call these heuristics. They're strategies you can use to understand something, questions you can ask yourself, like who's paying for this? Who benefits from this? What does this demand of me? Who's at fault? Who's to blame here? If the persons to blame are somebody you already feel disgust or separation from, that should be a red flag. Because we know that the human mind feels emotions before it knows why it feels them, and then this narrative kicks in to try to make sense of why do I feel these emotions? And I think a lot of how the conspiracy theories work, particularly the really deeply dark ones around pedophilia, around…Sy Hoekstra: Cannibalism.Matt Lumpkin: …cannibalism.Jonathan Walton: Cabal.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah, and a lot of those, they draw on really, really deeply held old, long, deep human history social taboos. We don't eat other people. Children are off limits as sexual partners. These are deeply held boundaries on civilization, on humanity, on even having any kind of community at all. So once you say, my opponent, the enemies, once you make them into something so horrible…Jonathan Walton: Lizard drinking blood people [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: …then it justifies the disgust you already felt towards somebody that you didn't like. So that's another way of thinking about this, of not falling for this trap of somebody coming along and saying, “You know what, your life is messed up. You are disempowered. You don't have the same cultural power and influence you had before. You can't enjoy just talking to your grandkids without worrying about offending them, and it's because of those people and their secret agenda that you can't actually know about, but I'm going to tell you about because I know,” and then what job does that do? It makes you feel justified in the things you already felt and thought. It makes you feel angry, and it makes you feel you were right all along.Feeling like you were right all along almost never [laughs] results in good actions. [laughter] When it turns out, everything I already thought was right, that's not a great place from which to get closer to truth.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and there's a lot of gold in what you're saying, but something standing out for me is I can feel strongly about something without thinking deeply about it.Matt Lumpkin: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So Hillary Clinton can be a lizard person who drinks the blood of children to stay alive. That's much easier than saying she's actually just somebody who benefits from systems of powers and structures that have put her in place her the majority of her life, and she's responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. But not drinking the blood of children, but like drone attacks. You know what I mean? But one requires thoughtfulness and doesn't engender those same feelings, because we don't have compassion for folks in the Middle East. I have compassion for folks in South America, but I can feel strongly about this 500 year old cabal that she's a part of and that Obama and Oprah and all them are.Matt Lumpkin: You've been reading more of that than I have. I don't know all that [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Hey man, hey man, you know, some of us got to do it so other people don't [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: Yeah.How Can We Help People Let Go of Conspiracy Theories?Jonathan Walton: But as we're engaging with these things, and I'm sure you're going to get to it, but what are some ways that you've actually seen people let go of this stuff, and how can we move towards those people in love instead of judgment, the way that you've been sharing about being empathetic?Maintaining Relationships with Conspiracy Theorists Is KeyMatt Lumpkin: I have to tell you guys, I don't think I'm particularly good at this. I have learned from some other people that I think are better at it than me. One is the thing we've talked about, about getting curious. This is just a good, this is Matt's unsolicited advice for all humans, whenever you're getting mad, pause and get curious. That's a good move to make. Getting out of the deep emotion space and into the curiosity space of what's going on here? What's really happening? Why am I feeling this?Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: Why are you feeling this? What's really motivating this? But the second one is, it may feel good to want to dunk on people with facts, because it's so easy [laughs] with so many of these things, but it doesn't actually result, dunking on people rarely results in closer relationships. There are times where I think it's important to push back against direct untruths that if spread can actively harm people. But the way you want to think about it is how can I say this and keep our relationship? Because what has been shown to work to get people to move out of some of these terrible ideas is relationships with people who don't share them. Because once all of your relationships are comprised of people who share this shared reality, that's an intersubjective reality that is mutually reinforcing.All those people are thinking the same things and talking the same things and thinking under the same reality, and it will make that reality more real. So just being in someone's life and existing and being the sort of person that isn't dismissible. For your listeners that are good Bible readers, go read the Gospels again. Watch how Jesus stays uncondemnable by the rules of phariseeism, so that he can transgress the rules of phariseeism in a way that upends them, in a way that challenges them. If he was just like, “Well, this is all terrible. None of this is true,” and just lived a way that, they would say, “Well, we can't take this man seriously. This person's not a person of faith. He's not even following the law.”But no, he carefully stays comprehensible to them as a participant in their community, so that when he does transgress on purpose with intention, a thing that needs to be challenged, he can't be dismissed. So staying in the lives of these people, and this is hard work, because some of the rules and the ways in which they put their world together are nonsensical. They don't match, they don't fit together.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: So you can't do it perfectly, but staying a person that has not rejected them, and staying in relationship with them while holding on to your reality and talking about it. It's not enough that the reality just lives in your mind. You have to bring it out into the world and make it real for them, so that you become a problem [laughs] for them that they have to resolve.Sy Hoekstra: Well, I had two quick things to say about that. One is the point about throwing facts at people. If you have asked the question of what job is this conspiracy theory doing, and you have answered that question, then you will realize that throwing facts at people is not going to address that problem.Matt Lumpkin: You've just taken away the thing that was fixing something for them, and now they're not going to let go of it easily because you've not offered anything better.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, and the problem is still there. Their problem wasn't insufficient facts.Matt Lumpkin: [laughs] Right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's one thing. And the other thing is talking about having close relationship with people and being credible and all that, I think that just emphasizes a point that we made before in this show, which is that if you are in a dominant group on a hierarchy, it's easier for you to do that. It is easier for White people to talk to other White people about racism and to remain credible and to maintain your close relationships, and to be able to talk about things that maybe your racist cousin would never talk about with Jonathan. You know what I mean? And that goes for anything. Able-bodied people talking about disabled people or whatever, checking people who use ableist language. So I just wanted to draw those two points for our listeners out of what you were saying.Matt Lumpkin: I think that's really important. And I think that any advice that I'm offering here is offered from the perspective of somebody who enjoys a lot of power and privilege. As a White, cis het man in America, in my middle age, I am at the height of my power and privilege. So the question that I ask myself is, I learned early on in life, I can't give the power that these corrupt cultural institutions have given me away. I can try, but they just give it back [Sy laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Matt Lumpkin: So how might I use that power to amplify the voices of people that don't have it, that don't enjoy it? Those are questions that I come back to and need to come back to more and more. And frankly, the less risk I take, I take less risk for me to challenge those ideas. But I think again, the challenging… and I get it. I get mad and I want to shatter these false realities. When I get in a space of anger, I want to burn it down. I want to reveal the falsity of it. But burning down a shelter someone has made for their psyche is rarely a gateway to a continued relationship [laughter]. So instead, the metaphor that I like to use, and I use this even when I was working in churches and doing adult Bible study, it's a metaphor of renovation.We all have rotten boards in our faith house and in our own psychological house, the shelter that we use to face the challenges of reality. We all have things that could be improved, and it's easier to take somebody walks through and says, “Oh, I think you've got little bit of dry rot over here. I got some time this week, you want me to help you work on that? I think we could fix it.” There's a really, really great passage over in Jeremiah that could really help us shore this up. That's a better way than saying, “You know what, I came over and you're living in a house full of rotten garbage, and I just burned it down for you.” That's less helpful.Jonathan Walton: Right.Asking What Evidence Would Prove the Conspiracy Theory Is False?Matt Lumpkin: Finally, I think the thing that, and I looked for the source on this, I couldn't find it. And if I find it, I'll let you know.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: But I heard a guy being interviewed, and he had done a lot of work scientifically in this area. If you can't tell I care a lot about science. I care a lot about how you know what you know. Scientific method is important to me. But he had said that basically, there aren't a lot of good strategies for getting people to let go of these ideas, but one that has been shown to be successful is to ask more questions. And to ask questions about, “Okay, well, why do you think that? How did you come to this conclusion?” To get curious with the person of how they came to these conclusions. And then when you hear things that are factually untrue, ask like, “Okay, well, what evidence would you accept?”So the move is this, you get curious, you ask questions, you get more data on why they think what they think. You offer some counter evidence that challenges some of the false foundations. When they don't accept it and they won't, then the move is, if you don't accept that evidence, what evidence would you accept that would actually change your mind? And that question can become the seed of doubt in the conspiracy theory thinking. Why? Because conspiracy theories are self-authenticating. There is no evidence that can show them to be false. And so telling somebody that isn't the same as them coming to that conclusion on their own and then feeling a little bit conned.At least for what I understood from this gentleman, the most successful paths are not making the leap for them, but leading them up to the leap to understand that they're locked in.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: And a lot of folks that really these theories appeal to, they appeal to them because they feel empowering. “I'm choosing this, I'm believing against the mainstream.” So once they start to realize that they're locked in a system that they can't actually ever get out of, because no evidence would convert them out of it, that's a bad feeling.Where to Find Matt's WorkSy Hoekstra: Interesting. Matt, before we let you go, can you tell people where they can find you on the internet, or what work of yours you would want them to check out?Matt Lumpkin: I do a lot of stuff at www.mattlumpkin.com, that's where most of some of the stuff that I write goes. If you want to see pictures of the paintings that I'm working on or the furniture that I'm designing [laughs], which is unrelated to our conversation, that's on, mostly on Instagram. But I don't have any way for people to subscribe, I don't have a Substack or anything like that. So I do post on Instagram when I have a new piece up, so that's one way you can sort of keep up.Sy Hoekstra: Awesome.Jonathan Walton: Nice.Sy Hoekstra: Matt is a jack of all trades [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Nice.Matt Lumpkin: Life's too short to do one thing.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Matt, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. We really appreciate you coming on and for being a part of the anthology.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man.Matt Lumpkin: Thank you so much. And I just want to say again, thank you for the work that you're doing in decentering us White guys and centering the voices of people of color, of women. I saw your recent episode you were highlighting the challenges around birth and women of color. I'm so inspired by the way that you guys are bringing together these real deep awareness and understanding of the hard problems that we face, and also keeping that connected to communities of faith and people who are striving to be faithful to the life and teachings of Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much, Matt. We really appreciate that.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that, man. Thanks so much.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: att's handle on Instagram is @mattlumpkin, and we'll have that link plus his website in the show notes.Sy's and Jonathan's Thoughts on the InterviewJonathan Walton: All right Sy, what are you thinking about that interview?Sy Hoekstra: Too much [Jonathan laughs].Conspiracies vs. Prophecies Is a Crucial DistinctionSy Hoekstra: Well, okay, I have two main thoughts that I would like to highlight. One of them, I just once again, I would like everybody in the world to be making the distinction between prophets and conspiracy theorists [laughter] in terms of what people are asking you to do with the stories they're telling you. If they're asking you to do nothing except oppose all of the evil that is out there in the world, versus asking you to examine yourself and see how you can change and make the world a better place. If everybody in the world was on the lookout for that, man, we would be in a better place [laughs] in our society.Addressing How Conservatives Would Process This ConversationBut second, I just wanted to address some tension that I sometimes feel when we're having conversations like this that I'm sure other people feel as well.In conversations like these and a lot, we're talking about conservatives or White Evangelicals or people who believe in conspiracy theories or whatever. It's conversations about these people. These people over here, who we are not a part of. And we're trying to be humane by understanding what it is that, what makes them tick, what it is that puts them into the places where they are. But it's always from our perspective, how did they get into the position where they are so wrong. That's really what we're asking. And we're not just asking that about people who are involved in QAnon, we're asking that about just kind of everyday conservative White Evangelicals or White Christians of any kind, or lots [laughs] of people who just subscribe to whiteness, who may or may not actually be White.But the people who actually hold those positions would not really see this conversation as humane. They would mostly see it as condescending. They would mostly see it as, “You trying to understand how I got to the place where I'm so wrong, is not you being generous or kind, it's you being kind of a jerk.” [laughs]How to  Think about the Narratives We Have about People We Disagree withSy Hoekstra: And the thing that I always have to remember, and I just wanted to kind of flag this for our listeners, is that really that is kind of just the nature of disagreeing. Anybody who disagrees about anything has some story, conscious or not about why the other person is wrong. That's just the nature of the diversity of thought, just having people who disagree about stuff. That's going to be what happens in a society, you're going to be making up stories about the other people and why they disagree with you.But what you get the choice of doing is trying to understand people the best you can, or dehumanizing them and attributing bad faith to them. Or saying, “Oh, the reason you think that is because of, I don't know, you're just those people.” I'm not trying to come up with any coherent psychological framework that makes sense of where you are. I'm just saying, “Ah, you're just a bunch of racists.” Or it could be, “Oh, you're just Black people. You're just inferior.” Anything like that. Anything that's dehumanizing, whatever, you can choose to do that, or you can choose to understand people as best you can, given the reality that you disagree with them and think that they're wildly wrong and that their views are harmful. So I just want everyone to remember that. Everyone's doing this, it's just about how you go about it. I don't know. I hope other people also sometimes feel that tension and I'm not just addressing no one, but that was a thought that I thought it might be worth sharing. What do you think, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, it is very possible to disagree with someone without disrespecting or dehumanizing them.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That is possible, but the amount of work that that takes, most of us are unwilling to do at this point in time. And what's sad about that is, and I think a couple of things that stood out to me, is that the main point of what he said in the essay he wrote for the anthology, and this is like, what am I going to gain if I hang out with this conspiracy theory? What am I going to keep, what am I going to get? What am I going to maintain if I believe this, and then if I not just think it, but believe it, and then act like it's true, and then enforce that reality on other people, what do I gain? And that to me, I think stands out to me because humanity, particularly though anyone upstream of a power dynamic has shown just an incredible capacity to enforce things that are not true to maintain power, authority, privilege and resources.Our Ability to Lie to Ourselves to Maintain OppressionOur capacity to innovate, to maintain lies, is fascinating. So when he talked about the Pentecostal who says Jesus is coming back in 1988 on January 13, and then Jesus doesn't show up, they got another revelation, and they don't lose any followers.Sy Hoekstra: This is in the essay, not in the interview.Jonathan Walton: Oh, so sorry.Sy Hoekstra: No, it's fine.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, but just that constant innovation and the individualization of your relationship with God, to the point that there's this entire reality that's constructed, and to deconstruct that reality would be so disorienting that we would rather just function as though it is true. So that confirmation bias where we then go seek out information then it sounds true, and so we add it to our toolkit to maintain our reality, that to me feels, and I need to think about this more, but feels at the root of a lot of injustices.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So it's like, I won't change this, because it would change everything about my life, and I'd rather just not change. So I'm going to keep it this way. So whether it's men and patriarchy, able-bodied folks and disabled folks, Black folks and everybody else, wealthy people and poor people, we'd just rather not change. So I'm just, I'm not going to do that. And then Newt Gingrich said, “Well, it doesn't feel true, so the facts don't matter.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And that to me stood out. And then Kellyanne Conway, an iteration of him just coming back and saying, that just saying “alternative facts.” Like what are we talking about? [laughs] In some world that feels plausible, and because it feels plausible, it must be true. And then their entire apparatuses, religious, political, social, familial, built around protecting these realities. And if we could just shake ourselves away from that, that would be wonderful. But it is... [laughs] I mean, when Jesus says, “You shall learn the truth, and the truth shall set you free,” there is just freedom in living in the truth, like what is actually there. So the last thing I'll say is I appreciated his emphasis on the reality that truth and knowing happens in community.It does not happen like me going to the mountain, getting it, then coming down and living unaccountable to anyone. This is not how it works. I say this in every single prayer workshop I do, the Lord's Prayer starts off “Our Father,” not “My daddy” [Sy laughs]. It just doesn't start like that [laughs]. So how can we have a more collective, communal relationship with God and one another?Sy Hoekstra: The thing you just said about the skill of being able to maintain falsehood, it feels particularly important to me in maintaining systems of oppression after they've been built. Because they're usually built on a lie, and then at some point that lie can get exposed and that can threaten the whole system, but the system can survive by evolving. We've talked about this before. You can get rid of slavery, but the essential lie behind slavery stays and justifies every Jim Crow and segregation and the Black Codes and sharecropping and all that. So there's a refining almost of how good you can get at lying to people until you have a not insignificant number of people talking about lizard people [laughs].And it's just I'm almost sometimes impressed by how skilled evil is at understanding humanity. Does that make sense? [laughter]Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, not to quote myself. In Twelve Lies I talked about how whiteness, White American folk religion, race-based, class-based, gender-based hierarchy is forever innovating. And the current container is in the United States of America, and it's being perfected.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, it's forever innovating, and it's good at it. That's what I'm saying. Which is why we spend so much time emphasizing how much you have to keep learning and being alert and praying. I'm going to say everything except “stay woke” [laughter]. Any other thoughts or should we get to our segment?Jonathan Walton: The only other thing I would say, and I almost started a whole thing about this, was just the importance of critical thinking. Just basic being willing to ask, why? Like, hey, Hillary Clinton is actually part of a race of lizard people that drink children's blood to get this chemical that's going to make them eternal. Why do you believe that [Sy laughs]? Like a person, a real human person went to a pizza place with a gun. That is a real thing that happened. Folks show up and ask questions. Like we cited this resource in a newsletter probably three years ago where the New York Times did this amazing podcast called Rabbit Hole. And this young man who worked an overnight job stocking shelves in one of the Midwestern states listened to podcasts every single night. Podcast and YouTube videos that drove him to become an extremist. And then he changed his podcast diet, he changed his YouTube diet, and then he realized, you know what, maybe I don't have to be afraid of everybody. He just started asking, why.There are people around him that said, “Hey, why do you believe the things that you do? Why are you becoming more afraid? Why do you feel the need to arm yourself? What do you think is going to happen?” Just people asking him questions, and he was willing to engage. So friends, just to love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. We can think. And that would be just a wonderful thing to push back against the anti academy thing that exists within modern Evangelicalism and most patterns of dominant religious thought.Sy Hoekstra: We can think, and that would be a wonderful thing. That's the pull quote.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right.Sy Hoekstra: That's the t-shirt [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's true.Which Tab Is Still Open?Sy Hoekstra: All right. Jonathan, let's get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper. We're really shifting gears here from conspiracy theories [laughs] to Albert Camus, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of our recommendations from our newsletter. That newsletter is free at KTFPress.com. Get recommendations from us on discipleship and political education each week, along with resources to help you stay grounded and hopeful, news about KTF Press, all kinds of other great stuff at www.ktfpress.com. Jonathan, for you, out of all the stuff we've been writing about in the newsletter, Which Tab is Still Open, can you tell us about it?Jonathan Walton: Okay, friends, we are going from not thinking at all to thinking very deeply. Okay?Sy Hoekstra: Yes [laughter].Jonathan Walton: So this episode of a podcast called The Gray Area, where the host Sean Illing talks with a historian and philosopher, Robert Zaretsky about the politics and the ethics of Algerian philosopher Albert Camus. Again, we're going to think really hard, so go with me. Camus lived through the colonial occupation and the French annexation of Algeria. And he also lived through the violent struggle between Algerian rebel forces and the French army. He opposed France's policies of discrimination and oppression of the Algerian people, but never fully endorsed Algerian independence. So leftists thought of him as a moderate. Keep going with me, okay?He also believed that killing was wrong no matter who was doing it, and that neither the rebels nor the French had a monopoly on truth. But he was not abstract. He thought that violence was inevitable. He just couldn't justify it being used against innocent people, even in the name of freedom. He was not at all abstract or a systemic thinker. Like a lot of European philosophers, he was grounded in reality of day to day suffering that he had lived, and his conviction was that it was simply wrong.Prioritizing Vulnerable People in the Halls of PowerSo as I listened to this episode, the thing that just fascinated me about Camus is that it is possible to hang out in the biggest halls of academic power, to win awards, as he did for his literature and novels and essays, but to stay grounded in the village, to stay grounded in the community, to stay grounded in reality.Because I think something that struck me, my daughter does gymnastics and she got the chance to go to a state competition, and I was walking with her through a college campus, it was her first time on a college university campus. And I thought to myself, the distance between where my daughter is right now and the quote- unquote, grandeur of this university is all false. The reality is, these are just kids. This is the same kid that was in the neighborhood an hour ago that drove to this place to do flips and tricks in this new gym. The walls might be shinier, the mats might be cleaner, it may be a bigger stage, but the reality is we are just people doing the same things together in a different venue.So Camus, even though he was at a university, held the village with him, even though he was at a newspaper, held the village with him. Even though people were pushing back against him, held the village with him. So how can I Jonathan Walton, Ivy League educated person, or you listening with whatever background you have, hold fast to the reality that the things we say and do impact vulnerable people? I can't just say that there's an invasion at the southern border and not think that there are implications to that. I can't just say, grab women by their genitals. I can't just say that and not think that something's going to happen. The reality of the things that I say and the things that I do impacts people downstream of me is something I have to hold fast to.And just what Camus said, violence is inevitable and totally unjustifiable. I think that felt to me as one of the truest things I've heard in a very long time, is that, do I think that all of a sudden, on this side of heaven, violence is going to stop? No. At the same time, could I ever justify in the name of Jesus, violating the image of God in someone else for whatever cause? No, I cannot, because Jesus didn't do it. If violence was justifiable, then Jesus absolutely would have joined Peter and started the revolution, or did it beforehand, which I wrote about. If I was Jesus, I would have slapped Zacchaeus so hard in the moment.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Wait, Zacchaeus?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I wrote a piece called “Jesus Didn't Slap Zacchaeus” [Sy laughs]. Just that reality of even before Pilate, because, you know, there's other things happening with Pilate. But it's like if I was Jesus and Zacchaeus is standing right there. He stole money from my family for years and years and years and years. He betrayed our people. He did all that. And he's short, he's standing there, I'm stronger than him, the crowd is behind me. Pow! I would have done it and felt totally justified. But Jesus doesn't do that, just like he doesn't throw himself off the cross and start the revolution. Just like he doesn't call angels to intercede and do things on his behalf. He stays in line with his vision and mission and calling because he knows the cup that he has to drink. And so Camus messed me up.Sy Hoekstra: The thing that I wanted to highlight from the podcast was a story that I think the guests, I think Zaretsky told about Camus being confronted by a student from Algeria saying, “Why aren't you supporting the rebel forces who are fighting the French? Why haven't you, in an outspoken way, said that what they're doing is good?” And he says, “Look, at this very moment they are placing bombs under tram cars in Algiers, and my mother could be on one of those tram cars. And if what they are doing is justice, then I prefer my mother.”Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And I think that's kind of what you're talking about. Just this, he just had this wall in his mind where he's like, “You cannot, you can't kill my people and call it justice, and call it goodness. I will not let you do that.” And that's, I'll talk about this in a minute, the place that he leaves you in politically and morally and whatever, is very difficult, but you got to respect the integrity [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. A thousand percent. The other thing that I really appreciate about this podcast is that Sean Illing, when he opens the podcast, addresses a reader or a listener who sent him a handwritten letter asking him why he had not addressed Israel, Palestine. And I respect him, and I respect his answer. And I suspect that other journalists and politicians are being confronted, whether on Instagram or not like, “Why aren't you doing x, y and z?” So I just appreciated Sean's, I'm talking about him like I know him, Sean Illing's candor and honesty to open the podcast. I think it just set the tone, really, really well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I totally agree with that.Jonathan Walton: So Sean, I mean, Sean, what do you think? So Sy, what do you think about the podcast? [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: I, Sean Illing, believe… [Jonathan laughs] Yeah, no, this podcast had me deep in my feelings is what I'm saying.Despair about Violence and Hope without Answers are Both BiblicalSy Hoekstra: First of all, I don't say this a lot, but I think French existentialism might actually be a decent way to respond to Pale

Donald Trump and White Christian Nationalists have formed an unholy alliance to pervert the main tenets of Christianity to manifest their unbridled desire for power. Rev. Jim Wallis calls on all Americans to reject and help dismantle a false gospel that propagates white supremacy and autocracy with insights and analysis based upon his new book, The False White Gospel .See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Happy Monday! Sam and Emma speak with Brad Onishi, writer, co-host of the Straight White American Jesus podcast, and founder of Axis Mundi Media, to discuss his recent book Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism – And What Comes Next. First, Sam and Emma run through updates on Biden's tight grasp on his candidacy, major defeats for the right wing in the UK and France, Iran's presidential election, the Lancet report on Gaza's 180k+ death toll, ceasefire negotiations, Project 2025, anti-administrative attacks on trans care, Boeing's plea deal, and the passing of Jane McAlevey, before diving a little deeper into the ongoing conversation about the future of Biden's candidacy. Brad Onishi then joins, diving right into the pivotal moment of the 1960s-70s social and electoral movements – from Civil Rights to the ERA – that brought the aggrievement of the “religious right” in the US back to the fore, and saw the return of a true Christian Nationalist movement in US politics. Stepping back, Onishi looks at his roots in the birthplace of this US Conservative Christian movement – Orange County, California – and the major role this county played in offering an escape for southern and midwestern “implants” from “urban diversity” (Black people), as myriad conservative-driven industries boomed in post-WWII SoCal. Expanding on this era's particular distillation of Christian Nationalism, Brad walks Sam and Emma through the proliferation of America-first rhetoric in the burgeoning Mega Church and Evangelical communities, with hyper-Americanism and theocratic rule fusing in a cogenerative movement to reclaim the country from “fake” Americans that could not be trusted with socio-political power, a perspective deeply ingrained in the modern day conservative movement. After expanding on the contemporary manifestation of this movement's proliferation (Donald Trump, Jan 6th, the overturn of Roe v. Wade, etc), Onishi wraps up by expanding on his connection to this movement, what we can learn from much of his community's escape-from-evangelism, how to organize the left against this threat, and the role traditional catholicism plays as a guiding force for this movement. And in the Fun Half: Emma and Sam watch NC Gubernatorial Candidate Mark Robinson speak in front of the cross about the innate American desire to kill some folks, parse through the unsurprising yet wildly devastating Lancet report on the drastic undercount of deaths in Gaza, and unpack Hamas' acquiescence to a temporary ceasefire. They also expand on the conversation about Biden's future, including CNN's recent report on Biden's underperforming polling, and where it leaves other electoral races, before watching Dave Rubin build up his expectations for the conservative contagion's performance in Europe before it all comes crashing down in front of him, plus, your calls and IMs! 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And after placing your order, select “podcast” in the survey and then select “Majority Report with Sam Seder'' in the dropdown menu that follows. Sunset Lake CBD: The folks over at Sunset Lake CBD are launching their newest product: CBD Softgels. These vegan, sugar-free softgels are designed to deliver long-lasting relaxation and relief. You can take them with your morning vitamins or keep the bottle on your nightstand. Folks, right now, when you go to https://SunsetLakeCBD.com you can try Sunset Lake's new Softgels for 40% off. Use code “SG40” at checkout. 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Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 500-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ Brad discusses the alarming rise of white Christian replacement fears and Christian nationalism in Texas. The episode highlights a meme retweeted by the True Texas project, which endorses great replacement theory and Christian nationalism. The podcast features an in-depth conversation with Robert Downen from the Texas Tribune about the True Texas Project's controversial conference, Texas' new school curriculums integrating biblical stories, and the legal battle over Annunciation House, a Catholic charity aiding refugees. They delve into the far-right movements aiming to resist demographic changes perceived as threats to white Christian dominance. Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, Jonathan and Sy talk with author and international speaker Mark Scandrette about:-        How Mark went from fundamentalism to loving his neighbor through political protest-        The cost of leaving a fundamentalist world and speaking out against injustice-        Why the beatitudes should guide our discipleship and voting-        How discipleship is practicing the way of Jesus, not learning doctrine-        And after the interview, a discussion on a really thoughtful article about how patriarchy harms Palestinian menMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Mark's website, MarkScandrette.com-            His organization's website, Reimagine.org-            Frederick Joseph's article on Patriarchy and Palestinian menCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Mark Scandrette: We all struggle with a sense of not enoughness, and what do we do with our lack. And we can either be closed handed, anxious, worried, and greedy, or open-handed and trusting. And that's blessed are the poor in spirit. It's hard to face the realities of a complex world, and so we wanna hide and escape, but Jesus says, blessed are those who mourn. And so that opens up opportunities for lament and confession and things like that. So in a way, I call it like the Beatitudes I think, and the Sermon on the Mount are like the psychology of how to live in the kingdom of God.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I'm Sy Hoekstra. We have a fantastic show for you today. First, we are continuing our series of interviews with authors from our anthology that we published in 2020 about Christianity and the election, which is still relevant because it's the same election we had, are having now. Time is a flat circle. This episode we have Mark Scandrette talking about his journey from a fundamentalist devout Republican upbringing in the eighties and early nineties until today, the cost that leaving that world had on his personal life, and his thoughts on living out the beatitudes practically in everyday life and in voting, and a whole lot more with him. That's a great conversation.And after that, hear Jonathan and my thoughts on the conversation, as well as our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving deeper into one of the recent recommendations from our newsletter. This week, a powerful essay by the author Frederick Joseph about patriarchy and its effects on men in Palestine. You do not wanna miss that.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Such a great essay. And if you like what you hear and read from KTF Press and would like for it to continue beyond the election season, please become a paid subscriber, like and share our work and encourage others to subscribe as well. Our goal over the next six months is 1000 paid subscribers, and right now there are 167. So we've got a ways to go, but we believe this work is valuable and we hope you do too. So like, share, subscribe, and tell a friend. We'd really appreciate it and look forward to reaching that goal.Sy Hoekstra: Mark Scandrette is an internationally recognized specialist in practical Christian spirituality. He is the founding director of the ReIMAGINE Center for Living Wisdom, where he leads an annual series of retreats, workshops, and projects designed to help participants apply spiritual wisdom to everyday life. His multidisciplinary studies in psychology, family health, and theology, have shaped his approach to learning and transformation. Mark teaches as contingent faculty in the doctoral program at Fuller Theological Seminary.His most recent books include FREE: Practicing The Way of Jesus, Belonging and Becoming: Creating a Healthy Family Culture, and The Ninefold Path of Jesus. That's the book from which a lot of what you will hear today come from. It's his most recent book. Mark is passionately engaged in sustainability practices and efforts to create safety in neighborhoods for all people. His essay in our anthology was called “Vote Like the Beatitudes Matter.”Jonathan Walton: Awesome. Let's get to the conversation. Here is the interview.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Mark Scandrette, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today.Mark Scandrette: Great to be with both of you. Appreciate you guys so much.Sy Hoekstra: Same to you. Absolutely.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.How Mark went from Fundamentalism to Loving His NeighborSy Hoekstra: So let's just dive right in. In your essay in your anthology, you write about kind of your upbringing in sort of fundamentalist Christian nationalist kind of spaces. I remember you particularly saying that Billy Graham and Chuck Colson were considered too liberal for the places… or were suspiciously liberal.Mark Scandrette: Yeah. Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Which is, that is a niche community right there [laughter]. And so we have a lot of listeners who probably… you said that your view started to change basically after the 1992 election. You were very active in the Republican party, and then things started to change after that. And we have a lot of listeners who are either people who had their whole political outlook change from conservative kind of Christian politics recently, like in the past several years because of Trump in 2016. Or we have a lot of listeners who are kind of helping… who know a lot of people who are in that situation.And so as somebody who is at this point more than like 30 years out from your own political shakeup in your worldview, what would you say to people who are kind of experiencing the shock and confusion of that change, or who are trying to help people through the shock and confusion of that kind of change?Meeting People Who Didn't Fit StereotypesMark Scandrette: Yeah. When I… you tried to put a point on it of being like 1992. I think that was maybe towards the beginning of a very long process. It's not really a binary. So I think that there were some gradual steps. Like I was repeating the things that my community was saying and believing about the world and about politics. And maybe my first step was not… like pausing to not say those things anymore, or not feeling like I could say them. And the sense I got was that there was some very clear borders of what would be considered in and out ideas or perspectives in the Christian communities that I was part of, and in my family. And so I just, I was just quiet for a lot of years sifting through what do I really think about things?One of the key things for me was having experiences beyond the boundaries of the community that I was raised in. For me, being around… I'm a White male, so being around people of color and people in poverty and struggle. And actually meeting people that my community would've labeled as liberals and finding out that they weren't the, those people weren't the caricature that I had been given. And that there wasn't this clear, there wasn't this binary. Not all of them were atheists and not all of them… Like they still had values and ethics. And so these were like layers of kind of surprise to me and a little befuddlement that I'd been given a narrative that just real… like my experiences in the world did not confirm.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Mark Scandrette: And another thing that may be good to know about me, is I moved to San Francisco in 1998. And so you have this little house on the prairie, White, Midwestern pastor family moving to the mission district of San Francisco that was mostly immigrant in a very progressive city. And I could, like I would trot out some of those ideas about the world that I'd inherited and grown up with. And to see the reaction and the kind of check on those things was really powerful for me.Accepting Complexity, and Loving Your Neighbor PoliticallyAnd I think a lot of us who have spent time in evangelicalism, we like a simple world. We like it, we wish the world was really simple and that there's a couple of things that would fix everything [laughs]. And so I've entered into, in my neighborhood, into complexity.And that was a big part of my shift in perspective. I would say it all came to a head in 2015 when a young man on our block was shot and killed by the police. And I had enough information to know police broke their protocols. He was shot six times in the back. They didn't address him in his native language and they misread a situation. And that was a series of about 15 police killings over just a couple year period in San Francisco. And I think that prior to that, my sense was as a follower of Jesus… and I think, I don't think I'm alone in this. I'm just gonna be apolitical and try and live out the teachings of Jesus in my everyday life, love my neighbor as myself. And I'm not gonna participate in the political world because It's dirty. It's a dirty thing. It's full of crooks and [laughs]…Sy Hoekstra: Which isn't wrong. That's not a wrong thing to say about the political world [laughter].Mark Scandrette: But with the killing of my neighbor, I realized there was all kinds of complexities to this about police hiring practices, their own protocols, the police commission and the union and all these things. And then when I would go to these organizing meetings, I would find out that most of my Latin and Black neighbors had had similar experiences. Everyone had somebody in their family that had been mistreated or killed. And I would say, “When they broke into your house and woke you up with guns [laughs] to your faces, did you make a complaint?” And they said, “No. We were just glad that they eventually left and that we're still alive.”And so I was like there's an… if I wanna love my neighbor as myself, it's more than just my direct action to love that person. I also need to advocate for them, and that gets me into politics and public policy. And so that was kind of a huge learning curve for me, to go from being apolitical to actually feeling like I needed to have a voice and participate at a different level.Sy Hoekstra: That's a useful story for people to hear because I mean, a number of things that you've highlighted is like, I mean, the story highlights is proximity to marginalized people is the willingness to enter into complexity and not shut it down by making things simple. And the how loving your neighbor actually takes shape when you get involved with real people in the real world as opposed to what you've been told about them. I mean, all those points, there's probably more in there that Jonathan could point out, but at least those three points come out of that story [laughs].The Importance of Firsthand Experiences in a World of Secondhand MediaJonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the biggest thing that stands out to me for folks who are on the like, “I want to help this person,” is that we can't help people who are unwilling to put themselves in close proximity with folks who are different.Mark Scandrette: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The information is not gonna be the transformation. I'm sure you saw documentaries about what happened when your neighbors are hanging with you. But when you're breathing the same air in the same room, you shop at the same grocery stores, you get on the same public transit, you ride on the same bike lanes, it creates a different narrative, right? And that I think, particularly for folks who are like, “Oh man, I don't know how this person would change.” I think there's a powerful invitation that Jesus says when he says, “Come and see.” And you came and you saw. And the interpretation of that was what then you're able to respond to, which is great.Mark Scandrette: So one of the things I try and emphasize is that I want to have firsthand experiences rather than relying on second or thirdhand reports about things.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Mark Scandrette: And I think that a lot of our media-fueled political discourse operates at that level of secondhand, thirdhand information. And I could see it in action. We spent a year doing weekly prayer vigils and walking from the site of his, the killing site to our local police station.Sy Hoekstra: Oh wow.Mark Scandrette: And on anniversaries there would be a particular attention from the media. And it would be mostly, it'd be a couple hundred grandpas and grandmas, observant Catholic folks from the neighborhood who were actually praying. And then a few radical communists would show up at the end with masks and hammers about six of them. And [laughs] that's the image that would go on Fox News.Sy Hoekstra: Right, of course. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Mmhmm, yep, right.Mark Scandrette: Not these devout people praying and not saying mean things about the police, but saying our liberation is bound up with one another and calling on God's grace to help us learn to live together in love. And so yeah, firsthand experiences I think are really powerful. And I'll tell you, maybe a hard thing for me was when I shared my firsthand experience, how people would tend to go to rhetoric with me very quickly. And I would go around to churches and tell the story of my experience with my neighbor, and people would assume I was saying bad things about their uncle who was a police officer, or whatever.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Mark Scandrette: And I said, “I didn't say anything about your uncle. I'm a writer and a storyteller. I try to be very careful about what I say. And so you're really making assumptions and backfilling what I didn't say.” And it's hard to get to that. In conversations with family and friends, it's really hard to get to that person to person level if one of us is talking from rhetoric.Why Should the Beatitudes Guide Our Voting?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, I feel like if the willingness and ability to resist relationship and go to rhetoric for simplicity's sake, which really means my own safety and my, I don't have to change, right? You, as a storyteller, as a writer, as someone who's shepherding folks in the way of Jesus, you landed on what you wrote in your essay for us, which was like voting in line with what you find in the Beatitudes. So there's these things happening in the neighborhood. You resist oversimplification, you make these things personal, and then you're like, all right, “I'm gonna step into the policy ring and vote from the Beatitudes.” So how did you land there, and why is that the passage of scripture as opposed to Isaiah 1:17 or Micah 6:8, or Matthew 25. For the folks who don't know the Bible, those are all the justice passages [laughter].The Beatitudes Are Some of Jesus' Most Important Teachings, and They Show Us How to Think and Live Like We Will in God's KingdomMark Scandrette: Sure. There's two layers to the question. One is I was mentored by somebody, by a philosopher named Dallas Willard, who would often say that the Sermon on the Mount is the curriculum for Christlikeness, the best collection we have of the teachings of Jesus. It was sort of like, if you have a favorite comedian, they do the same set hundreds of times, and you just, when they record the special you're getting the best hits. And I think the Sermon on the Mount is Jesus' best hits. So the Beatitudes fall at the beginning of that passage, and I think the Beatitudes can be seen as a way of Jesus naming areas of the human condition and human struggle that his teachings address.So we often, we all struggle with a sense of not enoughness, and what do we do with our lack. And we can either be closed handed, anxious, worried and greedy, or open-handed and trusting. It's hard to face the realities, and that's blessed are the poor in spirit. It's hard to face the realities of a complex world, and so we wanna hide and escape, but Jesus says, blessed are those who mourn. And so that opens up opportunities for lament and confession and things like that. So it's like a, in a way, I call it like the Beatitudes I think, and the Sermon on the Mount are like the psychology of how to live in the kingdom of God.What's the inner work, a new way of seeing that allows me to show up in new ways in the world. And so I think there's just incredible richness there. The other part of the answer is I did get invited into a project in 2015 called Nine Beats, where a group in the UK invited me to spend particular time on the Beatitudes and I developed a curriculum around it that we've introduced to groups around the world. And my main, my biggest passion is how do I invite other people to follow the teachings of Christ in the messy details of everyday life? Like, how does that work? Where do we start? What's the self-awareness we need to have? What are the practices that might help us learn to see and be like Jesus in the world?And so we created some labs around the… I call it a learning lab, a lab around the Beatitudes that would look at those principles from the Sermon on the Mount, and then we'd invite people to do experiments and practices around them. And actually it's, I'd say there's a political component to that because some of those teachings really confront our habits around how we show up in civic life. Like when we were looking at “blessed are the merciful,” we asked people to make a commitment to practice positive speech for one week. For one week, I won't say anything critical or disparaging about myself or another human being, including politicians.And we just asked people to do it for a week, and then notice how that changed the nature of their conversation and their attitudes. And most people, when we invite them to do this practice, they're like, “Oh, I don't know if I could do that.” Or there's a little bit of a chuckle knowing how much contempt is part of how we talk with each other.Sy Hoekstra: I literally just called politicians crooks. So yeah, I got you on that one [laughter].Jonathan Walton: And that piece, you said like “how much contempt marks our speech about each other and ourselves.”Mark Scandrette: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's good.Mark Scandrette: Yeah. We did another… when we looked at “blessed are those who mourn” or “blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness or justice”, we just asked people to think about, consider who tends to be excluded or on the margins in their context, and get curious and meet someone from that group. Or with “blessed are the peacemakers,” who do you put on the other side of us and them? Go have a conversation with that person, be curious and listen. And it's exciting to see. We had like, some of my work is in Australia and a lot of older White Christians in Australia carry some pretty judgmental I would say racist attitudes towards the original peoples of that continent.And it doesn't seem to cause much conflict within them as followers of Jesus. But with this lab, we just say, who do you put on the other side? Look at how Jesus did this, hanging out with the Centurion and the Samaritans and the occupiers, would you be willing to meet someone who is from that original people group and get curious about them and to see the kind of changes in attitude and learning, “Oh, that's why they wanted to see the referendum go through.” And it's been really powerful. And I'd just say, what I've noticed is by inviting people into the Jesus practices, you can get a lot further in the conversation around politics than you can by pushing your agenda forward.Jonathan Walton: Right. Almost like if you lift him up, he'll draw all people unto himself [laughter].The Beatitudes Are sometimes Unintuitive, and They Challenge Privileged People to Think DifferentlySy Hoekstra: Almost like that. I think thinking of the Beatitudes as the psychology of what it means to be a Christian, that you just made something click in my brain. And that was because there… and the reason I think it clicked is there are so many things in the Beatitudes that I find helpful, but it's not necessarily immediately clear why [laughs]. Like even just “mourn with those who mourn,” it's like—"Blessed are those who mourn.”Mark Scandrette: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's like that was never a command. Like that's not a, here's what you do to be righteous, or here's what you do to live well or whatever. I don't know. Like why you need to mourn is not immediately clear versus why you shouldn't steal or kill or commit adultery [laughs].Mark Scandrette: Yeah. And it's right there. It's the second thing Jesus says in this great sermon, is blessed are those who mourn. So that's probably out of all the beatitudes, the one that's hit people the hardest from dominant culture, is the scriptural invitation to lament and complain. And that it gives us an opportunity to both mourn how we've been hurt by personal or systemic forces, and to also sit with how we maybe have been complicit in systems and structures of oppression. And that it's okay and good to do that. And our healing's gonna come by realistically facing mistakes in our past and collective mistakes that we've made.What Was the Cost of Leaving Fundamentalism And Speaking Out Against Injustice?Sy Hoekstra: So in your turning to this way of thinking, you made it clear in the essay you've had some strain in some of your personal relationships. And I don't, without obviously you getting into the details of your personal life [laughs], I'm just kind of wondering in general how your relationships with people who disagree with you have changed and how you try to continue to approach people who are close to your part of your community who disagree with you in truth, but also in love at the same time.Mark Was Misunderstood When He Left Conservatism, but Being Misunderstood Is Part of Following JesusMark Scandrette: Yeah. I find it to be challenging, and it's been with my immediate family and extended family and with people who've even been donors to our work and organization over a very long period of time. And some of it really surprised me because… and I think that it has to do with that acceleration of divides that happened over the last four to six years. It surprised me who would be so adamant around and defensive around issues of racism and racial justice and things like that. I'm a sensitive person. Like I will say and do what I believe, but I don't go out of my way to offend. And so I like to, I'm a nice guy [laughs], but so it surprised me when I'm met with such anger from people I love. And I spent a lot of time trying to talk through things.I had one friend who was very offended because we organized a group of people just after George Floyd's death to do a lab on anti-racism. And he was really offended by some of the Black voices that we had as part of that and what they said. And I just spent hours trying to compose a response to him that was gentle and helpful and non-reactionary. And one thing that brings me great comfort is that part of Jesus' spiritual formation was to be misunderstood by the people closest to him. And so his mother and brothers thought he'd become mentally unwell and should have been committed to a mental health ward during his ministry [laughs]. People in his hometown rejected him.And not that any, like, we could go the wrong way with this to be like, oh, just because I offend people that means I'm following the Jesus way. But I do think there might be something archetypal in that if you keep trying to follow the Jesus way, you will be misunderstood and you will be misrepresented, and that that is part of your formation. So instead of taking it personally, just go, “This might be necessary because I've liked being liked. I've liked people agreeing with me thinking that I had wise things to say, and now people are not giving me that affirmation. Can I still be at rest and centered as a person who's trying to listen to God's voice and God's spirit when I'm not getting rewarded for it [laughs] by my community?” And that's a, it's a hard, but I think a necessary spiritual development step.Practicing the Way of Jesus Is Discipleship, Not Learning DoctrineJonathan Walton: Amen. Amen. So, as we've had this conversation, you put a lot of emphasis on practicing the way of Jesus, right? Like following Jesus looks like this. The Jesus way looks like this, the kingdom of God is like [laughs]... And so your training and discipleship focuses on trying to exercise that muscle. That you, how you wanna behave in the world. You just talked a little bit about that, rather than just saying the doctrines about Jesus and what we believe is true. Okay? if you were to make it succinct for people, why do you do that? Who helped you get to that point?Mark Scandrette: You know, I came up in a faith tradition that emphasized having the right beliefs and doctrine. And I was a good student of my tradition, as a young person I was reading the Bible one to three hours a day, memorizedSy Hoekstra: Okay.Mark Scandrette: …chapters and books of the scriptures, sang worship songs for an hour or two a day. Went to church every time it was open, handed out tracks to my friends at school. I don't know if that is a thing anymore, but it was in the eighties [laughs]. But carried a bible with me wherever I went. And having a head full of scripture did not magically make me into a well-formed person. And so I came to a point of frustration where I was like, there's just a tremendous gap between how I know I'm being called to live and how I actually live, there's been a missing element here. And I think it's the missing element is a commitment to practice and to really considering how do I, not just what is the right thing for a Christian to do, but how do I learn to do that right thing?What are the belief structures that need to change? What do I need to be honest about where the gaps are? What practices? And so we created something that back in the early two thousands, a program to try and approximate learning to have that student apprentice to rabbi relationship with Jesus. And the earliest disciples took him that his social place was as rabbi, and he was teaching them how to live his way of life. Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Learn from me. And so we called it the Jesus Dojo. I know that's a little bit of cultural appropriation. I don't use that term anymore, but it got to the point that to be a Christian in the way of Jesus looks more like being in a karate studio than in a college lecture hall.And I'd spent so many years in the college lecture hall of my faith getting a head full of information, but had not been in a gym or studio where I could work it out. And so I just found that when I'd gather groups of people and we'd say, how do we learn to not judge? Who are the Matthew 25 hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and lonely in our neighborhood? How would we care for the least of these? Let's meet them, let's share food. As we got active in trying to practice the Jesus way, that's when my heart and life really came alive, and it was so deeply transforming to me.Western Culture, All along the Political Spectrum, Privileges Words and Thoughts Over ActionsAnd I'll just also make this point that I think that this is not just symptomatic of people who identify as Christians, but I would say it's all Western culture, is our inheritance is that Greek Hellenistic way, trying to be objective and thinking that in our minds we can get the right picture together of life, and that words and thought is the whole game.And so I would say across the whole continuum, from conservative to progressive, there's a lot of rhetoric around words, and Jesus invites us into embodied practice. So some people, when they make the, if they've grown up conservative and Christian, and they're making a shift to let's say a more progressive way of being Christian, it's still just words. They just have different [laughs] slogans now.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Mark Scandrette: But you haven't changed the game. You haven't gotten up into the real thing yet. And the real thing is embodied love in practice. So there's a curious phenomenon where some people live better than their ideas. I would say I have family members like this. I don't like what comes out of their mouth about certain groups of people. I don't like the literature I see in their house. I have concerns about it, and I'm afraid of how they vote. But man, they live and love well. They live better than their ideas. And then I think some of us, maybe I'd include myself in this, I don't live as good as my ideas [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I agree with you.Mark Scandrette: And so, I think to people both on the… if you, I don't like these binaries, but across the continuum of right to left, we're all being invited by Jesus to live our values, to live love rather than just spouting rhetoric.Sy Hoekstra: Amen.Jonathan Walton: And who is one person that you're like, if you all hear someone talk about this, who's your person? Who are the folks that have helped you imbibe that reality?Mark Scandrette: Oh well, I think Dallas Willard to some extent was an early influence in that way, I think. I think Richard Rohr saying the best critique of what is, is to live a better story, has inspired me in that way. And to not…Maturity Is Moving Past Deconstruction to Synthesizing What Is Good from All Your ExperiencesI think the tendency when you feel like you're moving out of one community is to disconnect from it. You might feel rejection, but I think the mature posture of a Jesus follower would be to say, “I want to transcend and include.” Like I come from this community, I came up with these ideas, I'm moving beyond them. And maybe the first, let's say in a process of rethinking or deconstruction, it's very easy to disregard everything from your past, and to embrace the new.The more healthy approach would be to value whatever was good. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Value what was good, and then add to it more nuances in your understanding of reality, and not do this in a binary sort of way. It's hard to do that, it takes time. And maybe there's early stages where you have, it's like maybe even psychologically necessary to reject and renounce and disassociate, but eventually a Christlike maturity would be, I try to stay engaged. I don't create walls and boundaries.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Amen to all that.Interview Outro, and Where You Can Find Mark OnlineSy Hoekstra: Amen to all that. Mark Scandrette, this has been wonderful. We probably should've had you on the show earlier, but thank you so much for coming on [laughter]. We really, really appreciate you taking the time.Mark Scandrette: Yes. Yeah. I love what you guys do. I appreciate the way you show up in the world.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: You can find Mark's work at Markscandrette.com and his organization at Reimagine.org. Lots of the content he talked about in this interview come from his most recent book, The Ninefold Path of Jesus. We'll have links to all of that in the show notes.Jonathan and Sy's Thoughts After the InterviewWe Can't Control When White People Respond Well to New Information, but the Spirit Is Always WorkingSy Hoekstra: All right Jonathan. After that interview, what are you thinking about?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I think the thing that both encourages me and frustrates me is that I can't control how and when, and exactly what happens when folks encounter deep suffering and then are transformed or not. Like his sharing of like, okay, I'm a White guy, middle upper class, living in the suburbs in San Francisco, and all of a sudden, boom, police brutality is at his doorstep. Fifteen people are killed by the police, and all of a sudden the statistics he may have heard, or in the 1990s with Rodney King, prior to that, growing up in the sixties and seventies and eighties, like, there's these things coming up over and over again, but they didn't impact him.But now, boom, it's in his neighborhood and now he's impacted. And then he makes radical, quote- unquote, radical choices in response to that. And it changed his life, it changed his ministry, it changed his leadership, changes his family. Like generations of his family are different because of how he chose to respond to the incidents in his neighborhood. I just wish I could control that for every White person that I know [laughter]. You know? But I can't. I can't. So I take deep joy and I love Mark. He's one of my favorite people, and I just wish that more people went on that journey. I just wish it was as simple as, oh, just put people in proximity to one another and their lives would change and they'll become empathetic and transformative leaders. But that isn't the case, you know? And so I think taking that to Jesus is what I'll do because I know that he is the power and the gospel is the power of transformation. I just wish it was my persuasion or oratory skills from lots of leaders, but it's not. And talking with him reminds me of the work that I must do, because who knows what God will do when these seeds are planted? At the same time, man, I just wish it was easier to control the bearing of good fruit for the seeds that are planted.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, but so question, you said at the beginning, the first thing you said at the beginning of all that was that everything you just said is both frustrating and encouraging to you. I understand why it's frustrating. Why did you say encouraging?Jonathan Walton: It's encouraging because if it was just me or just leaders then we're confined to space and time, but it's the Holy Spirit, so he can literally do it whenever he wants.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I see.Jonathan Walton: He can have people all the time. Like God is sovereign, omnipresent, omniscient, can just be dropping stuff all over the world, and people are being ignited and lit up all the time. It's not just one organization or all those different things. And so as Tisch Warren would say, there's this mystery between what God is doing, what we are doing. And somehow that marriage of obedience and faithfulness creates an amazing transformation that we get to be a part of. And so I'm encouraged because God is at work. I'm discouraged because I wish what he did worked all the time. So, yeah. What about you? That was a lot. So tell us what you're thinking.How Listening Skills, Curiosity, and Proximity to Diversity Helps Us See Through False Media NarrativesSy Hoekstra: I'm thinking along kind of similar lines, or at least the same story of him kind of moving to the mission and having his perspective changed. But it's kind of how it affects the, how we engage with media in a certain way. But before I get to that, actually real quick, you mentioned that he's just a nice guy and one of your favorite people, I don't think I ever told you this. When we finished recording with Mark, you had to go. You had some scheduled thing, you had to leave. And then Mark and I just sat there and talked for like 45 minutes.Jonathan Walton: [laughter] That's awesome.Sy Hoekstra: Because he has this incredible… and he did not say, “I have time, let's hang out, Sy, let's catch up,” whatever. He's just one of those people who starts asking questions, and he does it in a way where he's like, “I'm fully engaged, I want to hear your answer. It's important to me, and I've got all the time in the world.” You can just tell that from his tone, and that's a really cool thing that not a lot of people are good at, and he's very good at it [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, absolutely. He's genuinely interested in what you are saying.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, for real. And has been ever since I met him when I was like 19 and probably didn't really have anything interesting to say [laughter].Okay, but getting back to him going to the mission, right? So he goes into the mission, he gets proximate to people who are very different than him. He exercises listening, he exercises curiosity. And that's how he finds his way past the media narrative about the marches in his neighborhood, right? Because he's got these, I can't remember if he said weekly or monthly. Oh, no. It was annual on the anniversary of the kid from their neighborhood who the police killed. They were doing these marches.And he said it was mostly like older folks from the community, largely Catholic praying as they marched. And at the very end, there's these Antifa or whoever they are, guys show up and start breaking stuff, and there's like a handful of them and they're just being difficult. And that's always on Fox News, is the anarchists. Right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's so easy to get the completely wrong picture of people who are different and far away from you, that we need to get good at exercising the skills that he was sort of demonstrating, or at least that he demonstrated through the stories that he was telling about how his transformation happened.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: And that's really hard. There are so many people… I have a similar story to him where it was like I was just displaced from a lot of super White spaces that I was in and happened to randomly end up close to people who are really different than me in college and beyond. So there's a lot of people like that for where it just, you have some point of contact that's, you don't necessarily seek out, it just happens to you. And then like you said, people's responses are just so different. But if you wanna get to know people well, you have to be able to discern through those media narratives in a way that is really hard if you're not there.And I think a good example of that is all of the crime narratives that have been going on recently, not just because of the election, but have been going on for years now, that Trump is made into such a big deal for his whole political career. Is this idea that just basically if you live in the city, you're just, I don't know, you're just dodging bullets wherever you go [laughter]. You're just like, crime is up all the time, it's never gone down, whatever. And all the statistics are actually showing in general, crime going down, way down in 2023 actually, like murder and some other crimes have gone way down. If you looked at a graph of the crime in New York City from like 1990 until today, it would be comical to say that crime is up in New York City. It is so, so far down than it was when I was a kid coming into the city for Yankee games or whatever [laughs].And people just, I don't know, you and I had both had the experience of people who used to live in New York City years ago coming back to visit us and being like, “Is it safe to walk through your neighborhood? Are we gonna be okay?” And we're just like, “Yes. It has not changed. Nothing has changed. I'm walking down the street with my toddler on my back in a carrier every day and we are fine.” But you wouldn't know that if you just watched the media. And so I think take some lessons in discernment from Mark, I think is what I'm saying [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Patriarchy and Palestinian MenSy Hoekstra: So we're going into Which Tab Is Still open?, our segment where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations that we posted recently in our newsletter that you can get totally for free at ktfpress.com if you wanna go there and do that. Jonathan, this one was your resource. So why don't you tell the people about it?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. The essay that I put in a newsletter a couple weeks ago is called “For Palestinian Fathers, Sons, and Brothers.” And I read it on Father's Day. It's by the bestselling author Frederick Joseph. It's about patriarchy and Palestinian men. That is the overarching container, but it goes so deep. And so Joseph argues that patriarchal power men receive from society is a devil's bargain because it robs men of humanity by making us people whose value comes from fitting a certain mold of being physically threatening, socially and sexually dominant, and emotionally unavailable. Like just a stoic figure. If you aren't those things, you don't get power and you aren't fully human.And then he talks about the various disparities in the ways that the media discusses Palestinian men. And we always talk about, we see this on Instagram. We see this particularly on the major, quote- unquote, major news outlets already, where it's the number of women and children are killed by Israel are propped up as though the number of men are less consequential or inconsequential. Because men who are victims are always put under the guise of terrorists, or they must be doing something evil, they're different, they are subhuman. And I think that is exacerbated even more when we talk about the level of sexual violence that's perpetuated against Palestinian men, while the many stories about Israeli soldiers or prison guards violating them just gets less airtime.When I encourage you, it is difficult, but to please go and read the New York Times' interviews of Palestinian male detainees. There's a long CNN article that also exposes just the terrible things that are happening to these men that are detained. And so this he argues, and I absolutely agree, that this is a pattern of dehumanization of what was largely like Muslim and Arab men coming out of 9/11, but especially true of just a campaign perpetuated by the West and Israel to dehumanize Palestinian men, specifically around the idea of occupation and giving Israel and the superpower allies just an excuse for their atrocities.One civil rights leader said the first step towards committing violence against someone is their dehumanization. And we've seen that pattern start from the beginning of occupation before the Nakba started up through till now. And so, understanding these men as fathers, and sons and brothers, and humans who value their lives and relationships and have deep grief and suffering due to war, can move us towards liberation.Mourning with Those Who Mourn Helps Us See the Humanity of Other PeopleI think Jesus's invitation command for us to mourn with those who mourn is a door for rehumanizing Palestinian men. It's a door for rehumanizing ourselves because we were actually made to be in relationships with one another, and our liberation is bound up in the liberation of all people.So when I'm celebrating Father's Day, I can hold the beauty that comes with that, but I can also resist the reality that I do not have to dehumanize other dads to make myself more of a Father. I don't. I don't need to do that. And so the pictures of men from all different backgrounds holding their kids in deep, deep, deep, deep suffering is something that I had to engage with. And this essay was a door to that, because the reality is they are men just like me. They're human just like me. I am no more or no less human than them. And God has made all of us in his image. And pushing back against narratives of dehumanization is a way to reflect that theology and make it more than just a thought, but turn it into a feeling and a practice. So yeah. Sy, what'd you think?Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] You just did a lot of really deep stuff and then you just ended it with, “So, yeah. [laughter]. This is how Jonathan and I talk, we get way too casual about very important things [laughter]. All that is so true and so good.Men Need to Understand How Patriarchy Hurts Them to Sustain the Fight Against ItSy Hoekstra: And I think another layer of why this essay is important to me is he's doing some really important psychological work that can feel awkward for men to do when it comes to talking about the patriarchy, because here's the background. I've been listening, I mentioned last episode I've been listening to Scott Hall, who's one of our previous guests from season three, and Erna Kim Hackett. I've been in a cohort with them from, with Erna's organization, Liberated Together, fantastic organization if you wanna go check it out.And one of the main points that they've made about Whiteness and White people doing racial justice work, and I'll connect this to patriarchy in a second, is that if you want to sustain motivation over the long term to do racial justice work as a White person, you can't be in it for altruistic purposes. Like you just can't. Because people, if you are there to help other people and not yourself, then at some point you are going to burn out, or you're going to demand that you be respected or rewarded or lauded in some way that makes you a bad ally. Right? You're going to burnout or be unhelpful, is what it comes down to because you're not doing what you just said, Jonathan, understanding that everyone's liberation is tied up together.So you have to say that White supremacy actually harms me as a White person and figure out how that happens, and then figure out how you as a White person need to heal yourself and participate in racial justice work for that reason. To heal yourself and other White people because basically that motivation will sustain you.It's kind of selfish, or it's kind of self-centered, but that's the reality of how humans work [laughs]. You need a personal motivation a lot of times to, or most of the time to do anything over a long stretch of time. The same thing is true of patriarchy. It's men need to understand how patriarchy harms us. And the reason it's awkward to talk about that is for two reasons at least. One is you can go too far with that and you can end up being like a men's rights activist, right? [laughter] Or like somebody who's just complaining about how men are victims and how women get unfairly treated, get stuff they don't deserve ahead of me or whatever. Go on that dangerous road. But the other reason it's awkward is when you think about patriarchy, obviously the first thing you go to is the way that it harms women.And you don't want to, you might not want to be caught complaining about how it harms you, because the harm on other people is so much worse. And the answer to that is, yes, it's worse. Fine, that's true. But the fact that somebody else got hurt worse than you doesn't mean that you didn't get hurt. Right?Jonathan Walton: Yes. Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. If I break an arm and you, Jonathan, break two arms and a leg, that doesn't mean I don't have to go to the doctor [laughs], right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I gotta go to the doctor. And so what Joseph is doing is just some really good thinking, deep thinking, about how patriarchy hurts himself. He talks about himself as a Black man and how it hurts him, just like you did. And he talks about the Palestinian men and really digging into this so that you can feel the grief and then subsequently process those emotions and then be able to do the work afterwards that you need to do to fight patriarchy to help everyone. Help everyone get out of the snare that it is. That was a lot of talking. Jonathan, any thoughts?Jonathan Walton: Well, yeah. I mean, I'll just lean into, try not to go even more down a rabbit hole, but I agree with everything that you said. And it's like you've talked about this before with like just hierarchies of dominance and power. It's a very different thing if a woman or someone from the a non-binary person says I'm gonna resist patriarchy. Patriarchy doesn't necessarily end because the folks downstream of it decide to stop. Patriarchy ends when men refuse to participate in the system. When the master walks off the plantation, that's when the plantation stops. And so we actually need men to say, “I'm going to opt out of this system of oppression because I can see that the first person it dehumanizes is me.” Because I am not a person anymore as soon as I decide to put myself on top of somebody else. That's not how God made us.We were made for relationships with one another. We weren't made to dominate and rule over each other. And so, something that I wanna push back against too is like a soft acceptable misogyny, where it's like we just walk around with assumptions about women and assumptions about non-binary people. I think what Frederick Joseph is doing is like when he pushes back against these narratives, I think our response should be just like Mark had when he was first encountering these things, is radical interrogation. To say, “Where am I being complicit? And let me stop that.” And repentance is part of that. We say, I'm doing this thing, I'm gonna turn from that and do these set of things instead.We need to make that as practical and as clear as possible as we can so that we can move towards freedom, not just by ourselves, but as we already talked about, like our liberation is bound up together. So the men and the folks downstream of me don't have to participate either. So, yeah, great job Frederick Joseph. Amazing essay. Thank you so much.Sy Hoekstra: Great job [laughs]. He needs our validation, not multiple New York Times bestseller awards or anything, yeah.Jonathan Walton: Awards and thousands of followers and all that. I hope my encouragement means something to you [laughter].Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: All right, cool. Well, we will end it there. This was a great episode. Thank you so much Jonathan, for being here as always. Thank you all for listening, we will see you in two weeks. Our theme song as Always is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Our editing is by Multitude Productions who just started doing the editing for us. We are so grateful to them. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale, and we will see you all in two weeks. Thank you so much for listening, goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Bye-Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. We have a fantastic show for you today. First, we are going to be continuing our—I... didn't turn off my air conditioner. Be right back [laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Summary In this episode, Tim, April, and Andrew discuss Christian nationalism and its impact on various social issues. They explore the definition of Christian nationalism and its desire to see a specific expression of Christianity fused with American civic life. They also examine the association between Christian nationalism and opposition to same-sex marriage, as well as the belief in traditional social arrangements and hierarchies. The conversation highlights the slow liberalization of views on same-sex marriage among those who embrace Christian nationalism. The discussion also touches on the theological challenges faced by Christian nationalists when it comes to accepting queer relationships and the rejection of contraception access by some Republicans. In this conversation, Tim and April discuss the themes of white Christian nationalism, the intersection of religion and race, and the dangers of Christian nationalist ideology. They highlight the importance of understanding the motivations and beliefs of Christian nationalists, as well as the potential consequences if their ideology gains more power and influence in the United States. The conversation also touches on the hypocrisy and double standards of conservative pundits and the need for people to stay informed and speak out against Christian nationalism. Takeaways Christian nationalism seeks to fuse a specific expression of Christianity with American civic life and desires to see the government defend and preserve that cultural framework. Those who strongly embrace Christian nationalism are more likely to oppose same-sex marriage and support the right of small business owners to refuse service to gay or lesbian people. While there has been a liberalization of views on same-sex marriage among all Americans, those who embrace Christian nationalism have been slower to change their stance. Christian nationalism's belief in traditional social arrangements and hierarchies poses theological challenges when it comes to accepting queer relationships. Some Republicans' rejection of contraception access aligns with the belief in a rightly ordered society that involves a man and a woman having many children. White Christian nationalism is a dangerous ideology that seeks to maintain white privilege and power in the United States. Christian nationalism is intertwined with white supremacy and seeks to enforce a specific vision of America based on Christian values. Understanding the motivations and beliefs of Christian nationalists is crucial in order to counter their influence and protect marginalized communities. Conservative pundits often engage in hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to supporting political figures and ideologies. It is important for individuals to stay informed about the dangers of Christian nationalism and to speak out against it in order to protect democracy and promote equality. Check out our website for merch, educational materials, and how to join our community! If you'd like to support our work, you can DONATE here! Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Subscribe On YouTube The New Evangelicals exists to support those who are tired of how evangelical church has been done before and want to see an authentic faith lived out with Jesus at the center. We are committed to building a caring community that emulates the ways of Jesus by reclaiming the evangelical tradition and embracing values that build a better way forward. If you've been marginalized by your faith, you are welcome here. We've built an empathetic and inclusive space that encourages authentic conversations, connections and faith. Whether you consider yourself a Christian, an exvangelical, someone who's questioning your faith, or someone who's left the faith entirely, you are welcome here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Keith and Matthew carry on the conversation from Tuesday's main show about the White Christian Nationalism.If you want to call in to the Bonus Show, leave a voicemail at (530) 332-8020. In the future, we will get to your calls!LINKSQuoirCast on PatreonQuoirCast on Patheos

Join activists and authors Shane Claiborne and Lisa Sharon Harper as we discuss why White Christian Nationalism is the biggest threat to American Democracy and American Religious Freedom imaginable, and what we can do about it.If you want to call in to the Bonus Show, leave a voicemail at (530) 332-8020.LINKSQuoirCast on PatreonQuoirCast on PatheosPANELLisa Sharon HarperShane Claiborne

-A new level of evil: women being viciously sucker punched by men in NY. -A very bad look for Biden: Trump attends wake NYPD slain Officer Jonathan Diller, while Biden, Obama & Bill Clinton hobnob with elites a fundraiser miles away. -On Fake Racism Friday, MSNBC host Joy Reid manages to find racism where it doesn't exists - amongst republicans that question if the Baltimore bridge collapse was a result of terrorism, pilot error, mechanical malfunction, or a DEI hiring that may have placed an unqualified person in a position they don't  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/carljacksonradio Twitter: https://twitter.com/carljacksonshow Parler: https://parler.com/carljacksonshow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecarljacksonshow http://www.TheCarlJacksonShow.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus episodes, ad-free listening, access to the entire 500-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ Brad goes into a deep dive into Charles Haywood, the self-proclaimed "warlord" who is using his fortune to lead the United States into a medieval Christian oligarchy. Haywood started the Society for American Civic Renewal, which Brad and Dan talked about last Friday. SACR, as it is known, is a secretive male-only group of White Christian men who want to renew American society by returning it to a medieval form of virtue and governance. These are men of influence - with millions to spend and a raging resentment about having their country taken from them by those "who don't deserve it." Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://www.amazon.com/Preparing-War-Extremist-Christian-Nationalism/dp/1506482163 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus episodes, ad-free listening, access to the entire 500-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ Brad and Dan begin by discussing the State of the Union speech by Pres. Joe Biden and the GOP response by Sen. Katie Britt (AL). They analyze the theatrics of the civic ritual - and how the chamber has turned into something more like the comments section on a YouTube video than a stately affair where all three of our branches of government gather. Brad draws on the work of Sara Moslener and Megan Goodwin to explain how Britt's response was a manifestation of the innocent White women myth and a form of contraceptive nationalism. In the second segment, Dan breaks down new data from PRRI on Christian nationalism. The two hosts explain how and why White Christian nationalists differ from their Black and Hispanic counterparts. Subscribe to Pure White by Sara Moslener: www.axismundi.us Buy Abusing Religion by Megan Goodwin: https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/abusing-religion/9781978807785/ Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://www.amazon.com/Preparing-War-Extremist-Christian-Nationalism/dp/1506482163 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the fourth and final episode of “The Threat of White Christian Nationalism”, host Reed Galen is joined by investigative journalist and author Sarah Posner. They discuss the historical roots of the Christian right (including the opposition to desegregation and the rise of the prosperity gospel), what MAGA learns from Christian nationalism's spiritual warfare and charismatic worship practices, and what a possible Trump victory (or loss) would mean for the movement of white Christian nationalism. If you'd like to hear more from Sarah Posner, be sure to pick up her latest book, Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship at the Altar of Donald Trump. For more from Reed Galen, subscribe to “The Home Front”. If you'd like to ask a question or share a comment with The Lincoln Project, send an email to podcast@lincolnproject.us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the third episode of “The Threat of White Christian Nationalism”, host Reed Galen is joined by investigative journalist and author Katherine Stewart. They discuss how the white Christian nationalist movement is driven by a cohort of leaders and organizations that form a deep organizational network, how the attack on public education is part of a larger project to destroy democratic institutions, and what members of the pro-democracy movement can do to fight against the advancement of white Christian nationalism. If you'd like to hear more from Katherine Stewart, be sure to pick up her latest book, The Power Worshippers: Inside the Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism, and find the documentary, God & Country, at a theater near you. For more from Reed Galen, subscribe to “The Home Front”. If you'd like to ask a question or share a comment with The Lincoln Project, send an email to podcast@lincolnproject.us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the second episode of “The Threat of White Christian Nationalism”, host Reed Galen is joined by journalist and bestselling author Tim Alberta. They discuss the societal perceptions of American evangelicals and the flaws/fallacies within their movement, why bad history plus bad theology equals the perfect formula for christian nationalism, and why Trumpism resonates so strongly with Americans who want theology to fit their politics…rather than the other way around. If you'd like to hear more from Tim Alberta, be sure to check out his work for The Atlantic and pick up his latest book, The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism. For more from Reed Galen, subscribe to “The Home Front”. If you'd like to ask a question or share a comment with The Lincoln Project, send an email to podcast@lincolnproject.us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the first episode of “The Threat of White Christian Nationalism”, host Reed Galen is joined by journalist and bestselling author Jeff Sharlet. They discuss the religious and cultural landscape of present-day American evangelicalism, how white Christian nationalism is not "old-time religion" but a rapidly mutating political theology, and how white Christian nationalism isn't synonymous with piety and has warped into an ideology to serve Trumpism. If you'd like to hear more from Jeff Sharlet, be sure to check out his work for Vanity Fair and pick up his latest book, The Undertow: Scenes From A Slow Civil War. For more from Reed Galen, subscribe to “The Home Front”. If you'd like to ask a question or share a comment with The Lincoln Project, send an email to podcast@lincolnproject.us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices