Podcast appearances and mentions of Caleb Campbell

In this segment, I examine the notion that there was something remarkably Christian about America's founding era. Last week, I fact-checked Charlie Kirk's viral video defense of the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation in the legal sense. Most of what Kirk had to say was irrelevant or incorrect. Today, I consider an overview of moral and religious failings during the founding era. Along with guests Jemar Tisby, Mark Noll, George Marsden, Caleb Campbell, and Aaron Cowan, I contradict Charlie Kirk's call to return to America's Christian roots. In fact, those roots don't seem very Christian when one considers the injustice and atrocities throughout the historical record.From the segment: "With slavery, treachery, mass murder, betrayal and theft embedded in the legacy of the nation, what does it matter how many times a Supreme Being is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or if the Liberty Bell has Leviticus on it?"Written and produced by Warren ThrockmortonMusic provided by Earl's Taco Shack, Jonathan Swaim, and Jonus Fair  

Caleb Campbell joins the pod to discuss his experiences engaging with Christian Nationalists and the impact of this movement on his congregation and the broader Church. In his book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, Caleb emphasizes the need for a compassionate approach to address the issue, highlighting the importance of connecting with individuals on a personal level and focusing on shared values. For Caleb, Christian Nationalism is not a problem for the church in the United States to solve, but rather is a mission field.Links and Resources:https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathanhttps://substack.com/@disarmingleviathanhttps://www.disarmingleviathan.com/Find Crackers and Grape Juice on Instagram, Facebook, and Substack.

Send us a text Christian Nationalism is a popular term these days, but it's often used as a catch-all for anyone who happens to be conservative both politically and theologically. We believe the language we use matters, and we need to be less casual about applying blanket labels like this to followers of Jesus who voted a certain way or don't share our political convictions. So, we had a conversation about it. We had the joy of sitting down with Caleb Campbell, pastor and author of the recent book “Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor.” In this episode, we delve into what Christian nationalism is, what's behind it, and how we can best love those who are caught in its grip. Learn more about Caleb's work:  Surge Network: https://www.surgenetwork.com/Disarming Leviathan: https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/Desert Springs Bible Church: https://dsbc.church/ Support the show

In this episode, Word&Way President Brian Kaylor talks with sociologist Ruth Braunstein about her documentary podcast When the Wolves Came. You can also find her writings at her Substack newsletter Democracy Is Hard. Mentioned in the episode is Caleb Campbell, who previously appeared on episode 150 of Dangerous Dogma. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, and politics. And order a copy of Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism by Brian Kaylor and Beau Underwood. If you buy it directly from Chalice Press, they are offering 33% off the cover price when you use the promo code "BApodcast."

In this episode, Word&Way President Brian Kaylor talks with journalist and Lutheran minister Angela Denker about her forthcoming book Disciples of White Jesus: The Radicalization of American Boyhood. You can watch a video version of this conversation here. You can also hear an earlier conversation with Denker in episode 68, and a conversation with Caleb Campbell in episode 150. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, and politics. And order a copy of Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism by Brian Kaylor and Beau Underwood. If you buy it directly from Chalice Press, they are offering 33% off the cover price when you use the promo code "BApodcast."

Caleb Campbell joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to discuss his journey from pastoring to becoming an author, and how to engage lovingly with Christian nationalists.    Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com   In this episode we: Explore Caleb Campbell's background and transformation from a neo-Nazi skinhead to a church pastor. Discover the origins and motivations behind Caleb's book on Christian nationalism. Reflect on the challenges pastors face in navigating cultural and political divides, particularly within the past decade. Reframe the approach to Christian nationalism as a mission field rather than an enemy to combat. Consider practical steps for engaging in meaningful, compassionate conversations with those holding nationalist views. Featured Guest Caleb Campbell https://www.disarmingleviathan.com   Resources mentioned Faithful Counseling https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor https://amzn.to/4hEwCdi The Quiet Damage: QAnon and the Destruction of the American Family https://amzn.to/4hEwCdi   Tell Your Friends! If you loved this episode, leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and share it with a friend. Tag us if you share it on social media.   Follow Untangled Faith wherever you listen to podcasts Follow on Apple podcasts Subscribe on YouTube Follow on Spotify Follow on Podcast Addict   Want to share your thoughts with us or talk about partnering with the show? Email: amy@untangledfaithpodcast.com Follow me on Instagram Follow me on Threads Follow me on BlueSky

In this episode JM talks with @ThePerfectingChurch Pastor Kevin C. Brown about their time in Bethlehem, being in "circles rather than rows", and the challenge for churches seeking to live out the Kingdom in a staunchly divided culture. For more on the Perfecting Church visit: https://theperfectingchurch.org Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theperfectingchurch Follow Kevin on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/kevinc.brown Other episodes mentioned: * What most evangelicals misunderstand about "Holiness" (with Dr. Matt O'Reilly) - https://youtu.be/YYSAnKi8Xx8 * Christian Nationalism and Leviathan (with Caleb Campbell) - https://youtu.be/yoNFWagAeQo ***Disciple Dojo shirts and other gifts are available over in our online store! - https://tinyurl.com/24ncuas2 ***Become a monthly Dojo Donor and help keep us going! - https://www.discipledojo.org/donate ***Dojo Donor Patches: If you are a monthly donor and would like an iron-on DiscipleDojo patch, supplies are limited so message JM directly via the contact page at https://www.discipledojo.org/contact ***If you are an unmarried Christian looking for community, check out our Facebook group “The Grownup's Table” over at www.facebook.com/groups/grownupstable ------ Go deeper at www.discipledojo.org

In this episode of The Macro Hour, Nikkiey Stott is joined by Caleb Campbell, a former West Point graduate turned NFL athlete who has since become an inspirational speaker on mental health, burnout, and personal growth. Caleb shares his journey of internalizing success and self-worth, only to realize that his identity had been tied to external achievements.After stepping away from football, Caleb embarked on a self-discovery journey to redefine his worth beyond the game. He unpacks the misconceptions of burnout, how learning to let go created more ease in his life, and the shift that redefined his view of success and lasting growth. Tune in for an insightful conversation on mental resilience, personal transformation, and more.Follow Caleb on Instagram for more insights: @caleb_campbellLearn more about Caleb's work:Keynote Speaking: www.calebcampbell.me/keynote-speakingCoaching Programs: www.calebcampbell.me/deepeningClick To Watch A Free Macro TrainingClick To Apply For Our ProgramsIf you've got a story about how The Macro Hour Podcast has positively impacted your life, we'd love to hear from you! Fill out this short form for a chance to be featured!Wanna collaborate with WarriorBabe? Click HERE! Follow Nikkiey and WarriorBabe's Socials:WarriorBabe - Instagram | Facebook | YouTube | WebsiteNikkiey - Instagram | Facebook | TikTok Welcome to The Macro Hour Podcast, where we talk about mindset, methodology, and tactics that will help you lose body fat, build muscle, be strong, and feel insanely confident. We've got a no-bullshit, no-nonsense approach with a lot of love and heart to help you reach your goals.

On this episode of the Ephesiology Podcast, Andrew and Michael are joined again by Pastor Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor as they discuss what it means to be the Church in a moment of extreme political and cultural division? Together, they wrestle with the pastoral challenges of shepherding congregations split … Continue reading "Episode 191: Caleb Campbell is Back"

(Sunday School) Everlasting Consequences- Caleb Campbell

In this episode Pastor and author Caleb Campbell steps into the Dojo to discuss the controversial concept of "Christian Nationalism", including myths about it and how it is to be evaluated in light of the actual Christian faith. Caleb's book Disarming Leviathan is available at: https://www.amazon.com/Disarming-Leviathan-Christian-Nationalist-Neighbor/dp/1514008513/ Caleb can be reached via his website: https://www.disarmingleviathan.com Follow him on YouTube: Youtube.com/@DisarmingLeviathanUSA Twitter: @DisarmingL Other resources mentioned: * Advice to Pro-Choice Friends - Advice for Pro-Choice Friends - https://youtu.be/lrgAcb54mSw * SuperheroSeminary: Captain American on Nationalism vs. Patriotism - https://youtu.be/LdMz6EEUREk?si=XtJWP53wZ96xtJfL * SuperheroSeminary: Aquaman explains Leviathan - https://youtu.be/DLuljp4QuYY?si=5CiAIcqRsWLng8Z9 ***Disciple Dojo shirts and other gifts are available over in our online store! - https://tinyurl.com/24ncuas2 ***Become a monthly Dojo Donor and help keep us going! - https://www.discipledojo.org/donate ***Dojo Donor Patches: If you are a monthly donor and would like an iron-on DiscipleDojo patch, supplies are limited so message JM directly via the contact page at https://www.discipledojo.org/contact ***If you are an unmarried Christian looking for community, check out our Facebook group “The Grownup's Table” over at www.facebook.com/groups/grownupstable ------ Go deeper at www.discipledojo.org

What if Christian nationalism isn't a head problem but a heart problem? In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks with Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan, about the rise of Christian nationalism in America and how Christians can engage this movement missionally rather than combatively. Campbell discusses the anxieties that drive people to embrace Christian nationalism, highlighting the fear of pluralism, the longing for safety, and the allure of worldly power. Drawing from his experience as a pastor and cultural observer, he argues that many Christian nationalists are not inherently motivated by hatred but by a deep desire for rest and stability in a changing world. The conversation delves into themes of hospitality, humble subversion, and the transformative power of the cross, challenging listeners to rethink how they approach those with opposing views. Campbell offers practical steps for engaging Christian nationalists, emphasizing the need for curiosity, safety, and scripture-centered dialogue. Find Caleb E. Campbell at: Instagram handle: https://www.instagram.com/revcalebcampbell Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/caleb.campbell2 X profile: https://www.twitter.com/calebphx Bluesky profile: https://bsky.app/profile/revcalebcampbell.bsky.social Find Disarming Leviathan at: https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought/ X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:03 Exploring the Good Impulses of Christian Nationalism 10:18 The Dilemma of Power: Christian Leadership in Politics 23:22 Christian Nationalism: Ideology and Identity 32:23 The Means vs. The Ends: A Christian Perspective on Power 33:25 The Call for Unity and Protection 34:26 Christian Nationalism: A Critical Examination 35:22 Navigating Leadership as a Christian 36:44 The Role of Scripture in Decision Making 38:57 The Complexity of Power Dynamics 39:54 The Dilemma of Political Engagement 42:48 The Duality of Christian Identity 44:41 The Dangers of Christian Nationalism 47:39 Personal Experiences with Christian Nationalism 51:11 A Shift in Perspective: From Combat to Mission 54:43 Practical Steps for Engagement 57:47 Creating Safe Spaces for Dialogue 01:00:30 The Importance of Humility in Conversations

Caleb Campbell is a West Point graduate and former Army Officer. Tired of feeling guilty for 'living the dream' of being a professional football player in the NFL and sick of turning to alcohol, drugs, and sex to numb that pain, Caleb moved to Canada and spent years sleeping on the basement floor of a pastor's home. He has since spent almost a decade on a self-discovery journey, healing his emotional trauma and processing the pain that was keeping him stuck and destroying his life. He is now a renowned public speaker. Check out his website: ⁠https://www.calebcampbell.me⁠ Follow him on Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/caleb_campbell⁠ Chapters 1:25 New Chapter 2:12 Exploring Fatherhood and Grief 5:41 The Surprising Nature of Grief 11:14 Navigating Changes in Relationships 16:52 Understanding Grief as a Teacher 22:19 Finding Flow Amidst Grief 27:27 The Weight of Grief 30:22 Befriending Grief for Growth 32:37 Creating Space for Grief 35:27 Navigating Grief in Relationships 40:57 The Healing Power of Vulnerability 46:46 Rituals and Ceremonies for Grief 57:44 Introduction to Grief and Connection 58:15 Resources and Community Engagement Keywords: grief, parenthood, vulnerability, connection, communication, renewal, emotional health, fatherhood, personal growth, relationships ___________________________________ Walk with Jeremy on the Camino in Spain: https://longdistancelovebombs.mykajabi.com/Camino Follow Jeremy on Instagram @LongDistanceLoveBombs: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/longdistancelovebombs⁠⁠ Sign up for Jeremy's weekly newsletter! Each week, I share a personal story and my favorite books, tunes, articles, and ideas. Click here: ⁠⁠https://longdistancelovebombs.mykajabi.com/email⁠⁠. It's easy and takes five seconds. Check out a list of 100 of Jeremy's favorite books here, including many his guests have written and recommend reading: ⁠⁠https://www.amazon.com/shop/longdistancelovebombs⁠⁠. Here is all of Jeremy's favorite stuff on the planet: ⁠⁠https://www.longdistancelovebombs.com/favorites

Discontentment Victims of Materlialism – Caleb Campbell

If you listen regularly to the podcast, you know that towards the end of each episode, I ask the guest this question: What is the story you want the church to tell? As we wrap up 2024, and look toward 2025 with much uncertainty and maybe a little hope, I have compiled some of my favorite answers to the question in hopes that you consider for yourself your own story and the story of your faith community.Answers from: Andy Root, Gisela Kreglinger, Kathy Khang, Grace Ji-Sun Kim, David Swanson, Richard Beck, Chris Battle, Jeannine Hanger, Kendall Vanderslice, Caleb Campbell, Heather Gorman & Mark Nelson, Derrick Weston, and Scot McKnight.I hope you enjoy the episode and that it provokes you to think through what you want in 2025.

The final Prep Sports Weekly program of the 2024 calendar year on Monday, December 30, 2024. We hear from the head boys basketball coach at Lynnwood, Anxhelos Pere; and from the head boys basketball coach at Jackson, Steve Johnson. Then a different kind of interview with the Girls and Boys Monroe Bearcats basketball teams, who are competing at the Cactus Jam Tournaments in Phoenix Arizona. For the girls, we heard from: Head Coach Tyson Horner, Assistant Coach Joni Edelbrock and players Halle Keller, Hope Keller, Allyson Hope Neri, Eliana Horner, Mya Mercille, Mya Paxton and Katelyn Paxton. For the boys, we heard from: Head Coach Justin Prohn, Assistant Coach James Lane and players Wyatt Prohn, Caleb Campbell, Tate Hammerquist, Dom Castillo, Chayce Waite-Kellar, Dylan Hall, Chris Kabaadi, Kieren Greear, Myles Baumchen and Isaiah Kiehl.

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comIn this month's bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into:- What are goals are in these kinds of conversations- Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals- The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations- And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor votersYou can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com.Mentioned in the episode- Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell- The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen- Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan- John Blake's interview with Rev. William BarberCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Sy Hoekstra- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now.Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we're live on Substack.Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter].Jonathan Walton: It's true. It's true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us.Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it.Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is.Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she's just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that.What's the Goal When You're Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects?Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy.Sy Hoekstra: For sure.Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or ColonizingJonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the other person. It's impossible to connect with someone that you're trying to control. It's impossible to connect with someone, to love someone that you're trying to consume, like to be enmeshed with and turn into yourself.And so I think one of the ways that we, what we're actually trying to do, instead of colonizing someone, instead of consuming someone, instead of controlling someone, is to connect with them. And so the foundational question that we need to ask ourselves when we're in conversations with someone who we disagree with is, “What do we want from the relationship?” So, yeah, we want to connect. And then we ask ourselves the deeper questions, hey, Ashley, [laughter] a deeper question of, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?” So for example, I know a couple. They voted differently in the election.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Than each other, or than you?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Than each other.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: I don't know if how I voted will even come up, because that wasn't the premise of the conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But this couple, their actual argument is not about like you voted for Trump and you wanted him not to vote for him. The actual thing is, how do we love each other amidst a disagreement? Because they don't know how to hold the reality that I believe something different from you and we can still remain connected. The only option they have is to consume the other person or calling them out, “You need to think like me.” Or be consumed, “I need to think like you.” Or, “Do we need to get a divorce?” Like, no. It is possible to remain connected to someone while being in disagreement, even vehement disagreement. I think what we actually need to agree on is, how do we wanna be connected? I think that's the foundational question.Connection Versus ConversionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I like that a lot. It's funny, when we were talking about this, this did not… I don't do emotional health and relationship discipleship and all that kind of thing that Jonathan does all the time. And your answer did not immediately occur to me [laughs]. I was thinking about Ashley's question, and I was like, “Wait a minute, what is the goal? I don't even know.” Anyways, I think the framework of connection is super, super helpful, and I appreciate you laying it out for us. And it's helpful for a couple of reasons. One is, it roots us in actual relationships, meaning your real life circumstances are what's guiding you. Your goals in your relationships is what is guiding you in how you approach the question of how you have these conversations.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then it's something that is sort of an antidote to that evangelical tendency to try to convert everyone, like you were talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Meaning, it's like, if you have a separate goal, then you can leave those other goals behind. But those other goals, if you don't have a new goal, those goals always stick. How you were raised is not going to change or move or be as prominent in your mind if you're not replacing it with something else.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's something that you can focus on, that you can actually do. Meaning you can make as much of an effort as you can to connect with someone, and they might not work, but you know that you did everything that you could, as opposed to trying to change someone. If your goal is changing people or defeating people, that never works. It very rarely works. And this is a weird thing that a lot of, I've realized growing up in evangelical churches, you couldn't face this directly, the fact that the overwhelming attempts that you made to evangelize someone didn't work [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: That was just a reality that you had to ignore. The vast majority of the people that you tried, they ignored you and walked on their way. And you couldn't just stop and go like, “Maybe the thing that I'm offering them is actually not all that attractive [laughs]. Maybe the church or the community or whatever, is getting in the way of…” That stuff you couldn't face. You had to believe that you had the best way, and you had to change people, or you had to shut them down. You had to shut down your opponents if you were talking about, atheists or whatever. And that stuff, it leads to constant anxiety, because you don't control the outcome, but you want to.You feel like you have to control the outcome, but you do not control the outcome. And when it comes to connection, again, you don't control the outcome, but the goal is that you attempt, you do everything that's in your power to attempt to reach your goal of connection with this person.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And then it also filters out the people that you don't need to have a connection with [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to respond to trolls. You know what I'm saying? You don't have to convert everyone. Because you're not trying to do all those things, it takes a lot of pressure off you. But I'm sorry, you were trying to say something. Go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, no, I think just to give some other resources, I'm pulling from Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell. I'm pulling from Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas. I'm pulling from Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero. I'm pulling from Difficult Conversations. There's like, Crucial Conversations and Difficult Conversations and I get them mixed up.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And also I'm pulling from When Helping Hurts. Because, oftentimes too, When Helping Hurts, I think it's really good, because we can start out with really good intentions, with trying to do something, quote- unquote, good for someone, when I think in reality what Sy was saying is true. We can only control what we desire, how we communicate that desire, and then pursuit of that desire.There is Vulnerability in Pursuing Connection as a GoalJonathan Walton: And then the other person actually gets to respond to that. And what's difficult about being vulnerable in connecting is that if you're trying to convert someone or control someone or colonize someone, they are rejecting a message or an idea. Or is it whereas if you are trying to connect with someone, you could feel rejected.And I think it's easier to try and persuade someone, or convince someone of an idea, rather than it is to connect with you as a person. I've been rejected by people, not just romantically [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: That too, though.Jonathan Walton: And it hurts. That as well. It's true. Tears.Sy Hoekstra: Sorry [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But one of the things is… No, it's cool. It's alright. Things worked out, praise God. But I think there's a vulnerability in, let's say I'm having a conversation with someone and they say, “Hey, Jonathan, I don't actually believe that police reform should happen. I think it's a few bad apples.” I have a few ways to go in that conversation. I could say, “Hey. Have you seen these statistics from this magazine and these FBI reports?” And go down deep into why Memphis is rejecting federal oversight. I could do that. Or I could say, “Oh, I feel afraid when you say that, because the results of that are, I'm afraid to walk outside my house because there aren't people actively pushing for reforms in the police department that occupies my neighborhood.”And that is vulnerability, because they could then invalidate my fears with their response, or whatever the thing is, but I think that that's the costly work of following Jesus in those moments.You Don't Need to Have Conversations with People Whose Goals Are Not ConnectionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. And just one more note on the goal, because we're starting to get into how these conversations actually work. But I did just wanna say one more thing about the overall goal of connection first before we move into that, just because I think this one is important. Especially for people who do ministry work of some kind, or talk about the kind of things that we talk about publicly, is if your goal is connection and the other person's goal is not connection, that's another reason that you don't have to talk to them [laughs]. Meaning, here's what I'm talking about here. I've seen you, Jonathan, in situations with people who do the kind of classic Christian thing when they disagree with something you're saying in public. They come to you and they say, “Hey, I've heard you talking about, let's say, police brutality. And I have some thoughts, I was wondering if we could just talk about it. Could we set up some time to have a Zoom?”And I've seen you go like, say to this person in not so many words basically, “I don't actually think that your goal is to have a conversation right now. I think you're upset with what I'm saying and you want to try and change me. Is that correct?”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You just said that to them, and not rudely. You put it in kind words, but you're just like, “Am I right in thinking that that's really what you want here?” And if they can't say no, then you will say, “Okay, I'm sorry. I don't really think I have time for this,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And move on. Which is something that I don't think a lot of ministers feel the need to do. But if someone is cutting off the possibility of connection from the jump, and all they're saying is, “I want to change you,” or they're refusing to not say that all they want is to change you, [laughs] you don't have to talk to them. You have no responsibility to talk to that person because you don't have a responsibility to get into an argument with anyone. Even as a pastor. Your responsibility is to shepherd people and to lead people, and if our conversation is just going to be an argument, you don't have to talk to them. You may still want to, everything I say is subject to your personal relationships with people and your individual circumstances, but that's an option, and I want more people to know that [laughs], because I think a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to just win arguments when they don't need to be having them.Winning Arguments Is Not What Leads to RepentanceJonathan Walton: Yeah. And also too, I think we've misidentified what the fruit of a won argument is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So for example, if I preach a sermon, or I have a conversation with a small group of people and I give a call to faith, and someone decides to follow Jesus, I did not win an argument. They're not saying I have the best ideas, or I presented things in a really compelling way, none of that is happening. What's happening is the Holy Spirit is working within them for them to respond in some way. It's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The Gospel is the power and transformation. I can't say, “You know what? What I drew on that napkin, or what I put in that card, when the PowerPoint slide opened and everybody went, ooh,” like, no. That was not the power. It is the power of God that draws people nigh into himself.Sy Hoekstra: Nigh unto himself [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. KJV baby. KJV [laughter].How Do We Achieve Connection in Difficult Conversations?Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into then the actual strategies and kind of the meat of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's it. Let's get into, how do you regulate yourself and what do you actually do to achieve the goal of connection?We Have to Know Ourselves to Connect with OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah, so I think the first thing is that we can't know other people unless we know ourselves. So for example, if… let's say I was having a conversation over the weekend with someone, and they said to me, “Well, I can't believe they would think that way.” And then I said, “Well, if I were in your situation, I would be pretty angry at that response. Are you upset? Do you feel angry?” I have to know, and be willing to name that I would be angry. I have to know, and be willing to imagine, like how to empathize. Like I'm listening to them, then I wanna empathize with how they're feeling, and then ask them, “Does that resonate with you?” To build some sort of emotional connection so that we stay grounded in them as an individual and not stepping up to the argument. Like “Oh, yeah. Absolutely, what they did was wrong.”I don't wanna participate in condemning other people either. I wanna connect with this person. We could commiserate around what happened, but I think we should prioritize what is happening for the person right in front of me, not just rehashing what happened to them. You know what I mean? Like figure out what's going on. So I think we have to know ourselves to be able to know other people, which includes that emotional awareness and intelligence. And then I think after that, we should affirm what's true about that person. And then, if we've done that, then be able to ask some questions or share our own perspective.Sy Hoekstra: Or what's true about what they're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes, what's true about what they're saying, yeah. And then be able to lean in there. And if there is an opportunity and the person desires to hear what you think about it, then that's great, but I guarantee you, they will not wanna hear about what you're saying if you don't connect with them first. And so creating or building a foundation of trust that you're not trying to just convert them or consume them or colonize them, but you are trying to connect requires that first part. So slowing down, then knowing how we feel, and then being able to connect around that level is a great place to start.Connect with Whatever Is True in What the Other Person Is SayingSy Hoekstra: Can you tell us what finding what's true and what someone is saying and then affirming that value, what does that actually sound like?Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. So let's go to a different script. There was a woman that had a conversation with me and was very upset that Black people could vote for Trump. This was a racially assigned White woman saying these things. And she was, I mean, raising her voice very loud, and so I said my goal… I did actually speak over her. I said, “So my goal in this conversation is for us as a group to remain connected and aware of each other and ourselves. What is your goal in what you're saying?” And I think that kind of threw cold water in her face because she didn't know what to do with that. And so she slowed down, then she said, “Well, I don't know. I haven't processed anything,” that was kind of what she blurted out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I knew that, actually [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I said, “It's great that like you need… this is a space to process.” I said, “What I would love for you to do is to slow down and tell us what you want, because I don't think you want me to be angry, and that's actually how I'm feeling right now. Was that your goal, was for me to feel angry and disconnected from you?” And she goes, “Well, you shouldn't be mad at me.” I said, “I can own my feelings. I didn't say you made me angry. I said my feeling in what you're saying is anger. Is that your intention? Is that what you're trying to foster? Because I would actually like to have my emotional response match your intent.” And it was not an easy conversation, but she did say after about 15 minutes of this kind of back and forth, she said, “I wanted to just close my computer,” is what she said, “But I didn't.” And then I said, “I'm so glad you chose to stay.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: “I'm so glad you chose to remain in our group. And to affirm again, you are valuable here, we desire your contribution and things like that.”Sy Hoekstra: And you were specifically in like a cohort that you were leading.Jonathan Walton: And I think it is hard to move towards someone who… Yeah, I was leading. I was leading. And everybody else was silent. They were not saying anything, but I had follow up conversations with one person after that, who said they were very grateful that I did that, because they were like, “I didn't know that you could be patient like that with someone so animated.” They were like, “I don't understand how you were calm in that situation.” I said, “Well, I was calm because I knew who I was. I was facilitating the conversation. I was leading the dialogue.” And I said, “When I'm with my mom,” not my mom, my mom passed away. “But if I was with my dad or my brothers in that conversation, I would have to do the same thing, but it will require more work because of the emotional history that's there. This history of my family and stuff under the bridge.”So each relationship is gonna bring with it its own porcupine quills, if you will, but that doesn't mean our steps change. I think our goal is to love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we don't know ourselves, we can't love our neighbors. So in the way that we would want patience and want grace and want respect, I think we need to extend that as best as we possibly can by trying to build a connection.Sy Hoekstra: And if you're talking about, I think that's really good for a discipleship situation. Anybody who disciples people, I hope you just learned something from that story [laughs]. But if you're having, by the way, Jonathan, I've noticed as we're talking, there's a very long delay. So I apologize.Jonathan Walton: No worries.Sy Hoekstra: I just interrupted you with something that was related to something you said like three sentences later, I'm sorry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: You're all good [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So I think when it comes to a political issue, if you're talking to someone who's saying something that you find very hurtful or very upsetting or whatever, which is where I think a lot of these questions come up for people. For a lot of people it's, “How do I talk to a Trump supporter?” That's kind of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then, like Jonathan said, it's going to be very hard. It's going to depend on your relationship with that person. And this work can be hard. It's very hard to get people to talk about their emotions, but that's what we need to do when somebody's talking… if they're being very anti-immigrant. You need to find a way into how they're communicating and what they're saying as angry as they are, whatever. An underlying thing might be, “I feel insecure about the economy of our country, I feel insecure about my job. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to provide because somebody's gonna undercut me in wages or whatever.” All that stuff. And the way to connect with that person is to say, “That makes sense, that feeling. And if I felt that that was happening to me, I would also be insecure.”Maybe it is also happening to you, you know what I mean? You have to just find a way into that feeling, and then say, “But the way that I feel secure is X, Y and Z, about…” If you want to talk about solidarity and lifting everyone up actually makes all of us more secure. You can get into the nitty gritty of immigration and economics, if you know that stuff, and say [laughs], “Actually, in general, immigrants really help us economically. And so I actually feel more secure. I know that immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens. And I trust the numbers that say that, and that comes from police departments. We can go look at your police department stats. So immigrants coming in actually lowers crime. I know that's a shock, but. So I feel more secure.” All that kind of like, you try and find a way to connect on the emotion and speak in a… What I'm doing right now is summarizing and being slightly glib, but [laughs] I think that's the best you can do.People You Connect with May Not Change, or Take a Long Time to ChangeSy Hoekstra: And I know to some people, if you have a really obstinate person that feels hopeless and impossible, and I think what we're saying is you give it your best shot, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And there's nothing you can do about it not working. And it might also be something, by the way, where you talk to them now and that's the beginning of a 10-year process of them changing.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't know. This is why I said that stuff's out of your hands, is what I mean. So that's where we need to find our own internal piece about it. And then, I don't know, there's a number of other thoughts I have about what you have to do to prepare for all that, like the prep work that goes into it. But do you have other thoughts about that, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, I think just all of what you said is true, and I just wanna lean into what you said about, you cannot rush the process of that relationship. Because if your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place. Because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. We've got to be able to have conversations with people that are deeper and contain the multitudes that a person holds, as opposed to the latest tweet or share that they had.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We're talking with people, we're not talking with a minimally viable product that's before us like, “Do I want this or not in my life?” And so I think even in the, let's take the example, like Caleb Campbell did a great example of this immigration. If someone actually believed that they were going to be invaded, I'm making quotes with my fingers, but invaded and they're gonna lose their job and they're gonna lose their emotional and spiritual and social security, not Social Security like the actual entitlement program, but social security like their feeling of social safety, that is objectively terrifying. If that is the narrative, then we can actually connect with people around why they're afraid.And if we connect with them why they're afraid, not convince them why they shouldn't be scared, then you actually have the opportunity to share with them why they may not need to be afraid. Because, as Sy said, immigrants crime actually goes down. Immigrants actually pay billions of dollars in taxes. Immigrants actually start businesses at a higher rate than our native population. All those things, but we can't get there unless we're connected. We cannot correct people without connecting with them. So, yeah.Getting Good at Connection Takes PracticeSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think this takes a ton of practice.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You will be bad at it at first, and that's [laughter]… So I think another part of it is you have to know why it's important to you. That's another thing, and that's a personal thing. But you have to understand why connection with someone whose political beliefs or whatever you find kind of abhorrent [laughs] is something that is important to you, that work has to be done on your own and ahead of time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You also have to take into account… sorry. You'll just get better at it over time. So meaning it, I'd say it's only like in the last few years that I've really been able to participate in extremely difficult conversations about politics or whatever, and just be okay [laughter], no matter what the consequence of it is. And sometimes that's still not true, depending on the relationship I have with the person, but I don't know. You've got to remember that people… actually, at the beginning I remember I told you she talked about, as a young person or as millennials and Gen Z wanting to shut people down. And I actually don't think that's a generational thing. I think that's just a young people thing.I think when I was 22 I thought it was awesome to shut people down [laughs]. And I think all the most recent, this is something I know from justice advocacy work, but all the recent neurology science basically tells us you don't have an adult brain until you're like 25 [laughter]. You don't have your impulse control, you know what I mean? It's just hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And it just takes time to retrain yourself to do something, It can take years. So fear not, is what I'm saying, if you think you're bad at this.Being Aware of How Much You Know about a SubjectSy Hoekstra: And then I think something that's kind of deceptively emotional is the things that don't seem emotional, like knowing your facts and being able to bow out of conversations when you don't know your facts [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Like if you have a feeling that something's wrong, but somebody's saying something wrong, or bigoted, or whatever, but you don't have the information, A, it's gonna make you much more comfortable if you do have the information, if you've read up on it, if you know the subjects. Because you find as you dig deeper into different political issues and hot button topics, there really are only so many opinions that people have, and they're usually based on relatively shallow understandings of information. So you can know a lot of the arguments ahead of time. You can know a lot of the important facts ahead of time. You've just kind of got to pay attention and that's something that happens over time.And then if you don't know that stuff, and you try and engage anyway just based on instinct, you're gonna have a lot of times where you say stuff that you regret later [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're gonna have a lot of times where you maybe even make up something just because you wanna be right and you wanna win.Jonathan Walton: Yes, you wanna win.Sy Hoekstra: And then bowing out and letting someone believe their terrible thing without you fighting against it, sometimes that can be really hard, but that's an emotional issue, that's something about you being…Jonathan Walton: Right. That's a feeling. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's always gonna be feelings, and that's why you got to have your goals clear, and whenever you can, know your stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Adam just said something, really quick. He said, “I've literally had notification of high heart rate from my Apple watch during such conversations.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: And being able to have conversations without a high heart rate notification is becoming more normal.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Good.Jonathan Walton: Yes, that has happened to me so many times. And it's true. It's fewer, it's less than what it was before that.Sy Hoekstra: That's so funny. I don't have a smart watch, so that's never happened to me, but that's so funny. And I'm glad that it's improving for both of you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it's a way to track if your spiritual formation's actually forming you [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: True.Engaging in Hard Conversations with Connection as a Goal is ExhaustingSy Hoekstra: So one more thing though is, this is exhausting.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: One of the reasons it's exhausting is not just because the whole thing is hard, but the issue is no one's ever gonna come to you, again, I guess, unless you're a pastor, and say, “Hey, next Wednesday at 4:00 pm I wanna talk to you about immigration.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: They're going to come to you, you're gonna be having a dinner, and there's gonna be a completely random out of nowhere comment that you do not expect coming and your instinct may be in that moment to get angry or to just let it pass because you don't wanna deal with right now or whatever. And all that you have to take that into account. Again, over time it'll get easier to respond to random acts of racist bigotry, whatever. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is something that's hard to do for anyone, and so you need to take the exhaustion of constantly being on alert into account when you think about, how do I wanna connect with this person? Because if it's someone where you have to be on alert the whole time and ready to go at any moment [laughs], that's difficult. And that's somebody that you might need to hang out with less or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You have to make those decisions for yourself. And so I'm just saying, be willing to take that into account. Be alert to that way that you can become exhausted. Because, again, if you're really tired and you just have a snap reaction, you can say stuff you regret later.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Do you have… Yeah, you have thoughts. Go ahead and then we'll get to...Jonathan Walton: No, I was gonna say, off all of that, I think is mitigated by asking myself, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And all of us have relationships that are not as healthy as we'd like them to be. And if my goal is not to convert someone or I don't feel this like abnormal, huge weight of this person's salvation, because that's not my responsibility, then I can say, “You know what? I just can't be with that person right now. I just can't do that.” And be able to enter into that in a healthier way, and it'll be a more loving thing.The Power Dynamics of Difficult ConversationsSy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just get into, I think that's a lot of the meat of it, but let's talk about just some of the power dynamics and other things that are going on during these conversations. Jonathan, I'm happy to start if you want, but you can go ahead if you have some things you wanna flag for people.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think if we're not thinking about power dynamics then we're missing what's actually happening. So when men to women, able-bodied to disable-bodied, rich to poor, educated to uneducated. All of these things are playing all the time. So somebody's like, “Oh, you're playing the race card, or you're being ageist,” that's just the table. It's not a card. That's just the society we live in. We live in a segregated, stratified society. And so to be able to be aware of that, I think respects whether you are in the ecosystem or whether you've been lifted up by the ecosystem because of the hierarchies that we live in. I think that's just something we have to take into account of where we are and where the person that we are engaging with is or is perceived to be, then that can be a gift, just in the conversation. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's sort of like keeping in mind whether you're talking to someone who's basically [laughs] above or below you on different hierarchies, which is gonna be important. Like, if you're talking, if I as a White person am talking to a Black person about race, I have to understand the dynamics. For me, at least, what I'm thinking about is I have to be personally familiar with the stuff that Black people hear all the time [laughs], and how it is often heard, and that sort of thing. Not because I need to apply a monolithic understanding of race conversations to any individual, but just to know that that individual is probably going to hear something I say this way, or feel this way about something.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I'm sorry about the sirens in my background. I live in Manhattan [laughter]. So I think that's one thing. But then the other way is I as a disabled person, if I'm trying to talk to an able-bodied person about disability stuff, I just need to take into account how much more tiring that's going to be, and the work that I may have to do after the conversation to process whatever terribly insulting thing was said to me [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I do that all the time. That's something I have to do when I get home from dropping my daughter off at daycare. It just depends on what happened on the way there, or whatever. Another thing is that the, a person you're talking to can always walk away [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Nobody needs to be in this conversation, and that you need to be able to accept that. You need to be able to let people go the way that Jesus did when they rejected his teachings. Because if you don't do that and [laughs] you try and force them into conversations with you, again, that's what we're trying to avoid doing, is panicking about the results and trying to make somebody like you because you think the world needs to be the way that you are. That's the colonialist mindset [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And then I think one other thing for me is how the person… this is back on the hierarchy thing. How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with. Meaning the person that you're trying to connect with might be someone, like not the person you're talking to. It might be somebody who's sitting next to you, it might be somebody who's not there.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that's just the other thing to keep in mind, because you might be trying to show somebody else that they have support, that's a huge thing. That's the person who you have a conversation with after your cohort call that you were talking about earlier. And it might be just like, if I'm talking to another White person and I know, actually doesn't matter if I know them or not, but if I'm talking about connection, if I know people of color who have to talk to this person and they're saying something that I think I can head off or correct in some way, then I should do that. And I should keep in mind my connection with that White person, but I've also top of mind it's gonna be the connection that I have with people of color who interact with that person too.Okay, those are my thoughts on that big question. Jonathan, do we have anything else to say about these conversations before we move to Which Tab Is Still Open?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I don't have anything more to say about that conversation. I do have two problems that our live audience will get to engage with.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: One is that I need to get… it's one o'clock.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I have a time stop.Sy Hoekstra: Right now?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And my phone is also telling me, yeah, because I was thinking, I didn't know we're gonna talk past one o'clock, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, we started like 12:15 so.Jonathan Walton: We did. We did, we did. And then my phone as we entered into this conversation is on the red.Sy Hoekstra: Is about to die. Alright, cool. So then I think what we'll do, Jonathan, is we'll record the Which Tab Is Still Open separately, and just add that to the bonus episode.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: So again, everybody, if you wanna hear the recordings of this afterwards, and now I guess the extended version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, or just on, you're on Substack right now if you're listening to us. Become a paid subscriber, that would be amazing. If you wanna get our newsletter that's actually free, you can follow us on the free list and get us that way. Thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. Give us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next month. We do these once a month now that we're in the off season. And our theme song is “Citizens”, by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Joyce Ambale does the transcripts. I'm doing the editing right now and the production of this show, along with our paid subscribers. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we will hopefully see you next month or on the paid list.Jonathan Walton: Yep, bye.Sy: Bye.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Which Tab Is Still Open?: Rev. William Barber and Poor VotersSy Hoekstra: And now this is the separate recording of Which Tab Is Still Open. We're gonna dive a little bit deeper into one of the articles from the newsletter that Jonathan brought up recently. Jonathan, why don't you tell us about the article, and we'll get into a little discussion about it.Jonathan Walton: Yes. So our good friend, John Blake, award winning journalists and former guest on this podcast interviewed Reverend Dr William Barber on his thoughts after the election. It was one of the most interesting things I read post-election, because Dr Barber has a perspective most politicians and pundits just don't. He takes a perspective of poor people seriously, like Jesus [laughter]. And so one of the things he argues was that about 30 million poor people who are eligible voters usually don't vote because neither party is addressing the issues that are important to them, like minimum wage, affordable health care, strengthening unions, etc.There was talk about strengthening unions, but not in the ways that communicate about the needs and priorities of low wage and poor workers. Republicans mostly blame poor people for their poverty, that is a consistent thing over the last 60 years. And Democrats ignore them altogether because they see them not as a viable voting block to mobilize, we should get middle class voters, which is not the same as the working poor. Barber has a history of successfully organizing multiracial coalitions of poor working class people in North Carolina to make real difference in elections. So it's not just a theoretical thing, like you can actually win elections by doing what MLK did, which Barber is in the tradition of you can have a multicultural coalition of impoverished or economically impoverished, marginalized people in the United States and actually have and hold power in the country.So even as Kamala Harris lost in November in North Carolina, voters elected a Democratic Governor and Attorney General and got rid of the veto-proof majority in the state legislature, even with all of the nonsensical gerrymandering that exist there. So Sy, what are your thoughts on all this?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I'm very happy that somebody in the mainstream news is actually talking about this [laughs]. That's one thing. I just haven't heard... This is one of those things where if somebody, if the Democrats got this right, they could win a lot more. I don't know how much more, Reverend Barber is very optimistic about it. I haven't dug into the numbers the way that he has as a political organizer, but he basically says if you swing like 10 percent of the poor vote in any direction in many states, and you could change a whole lot of stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you can read the article for his exact arguments. But it is definitely true that we don't address poor voters any real way, like we get stuck on, I've talked about this before, the bias toward, quote- unquote, real America, which sort of amounts to working and middle class White people and really does not address actually impoverished people. And the average, Reverend Barber is very sensitive to this, which I think is why he's effective, is the average welfare recipient in the United States today is still White. That hasn't changed. Welfare recipients are disproportionately Black and Brown. But the demographics of this country are such that you can be disproportionately high as a racial minority, but White people are still gonna be the majority of the welfare recipients.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the potential interest alignment between those groups has always been intentionally broken up by elites in this country. And the thing that this raises for me is our constant, throughout our whole history, our belief that basically, poor people's opinions don't matter, that poor people's interests don't matter, and maybe poor people shouldn't even be voting in the first place. We had to have a movement in this country for universal White male suffrage [laughs] in the first few decades of this country, that was a fight. And the reason was they did not want you voting originally, if you didn't own property. And the belief behind that was, if you don't have property, then you don't have a stake in society. You don't have a sufficient stake in society to, I don't know, uphold the responsibility of voting.And in a lot of different ways that bias or that bigotry, frankly, has shot through a lot of different ways that we think about economics and politics. And just the idea like, it does not make sense to start with. If anything, the people with the most stake in how the government treats them are the people with the least power, with the with the way that society is run, are going to be the people who suffer the most when society is run poorly [laughs]. And the people who have the most independent wealth and power, meaning they can, regardless of what the government is doing, they're going to be generally alright, because they are wealthy landowners, if we're talking about the beginning of this country. They're actually kind of the least interested in how society runs, and maybe the most interested in maintaining the status quo and not having things change, which I think is what we're actually talking about.I think we're actually talking about not having significant change [laughs] in our economics, when we talk about the people who have the most quote- unquote, responsibility or the most sense of responsibility for how the society goes. And I think all of that bleeds into how both parties think today, because both parties are made up of elites. And I think there was this huge and terrible reaction to the CEO of United Healthcare being assassinated. And I was reading some stuff about it that basically said, if you're talking about healthcare, which is one of the issues that William Barber brought up, I think the reason that a lot of people don't understand the anger and the glee over the fact that this guy was killed online, which there was a ton of, which I don't support.But if you're trying to understand it there's so many elites who are the healthcare CEOs themselves, the politicians who write healthcare policy for whom, the biggest problem that health insurance is ever going to be is maybe a significant amount of paperwork. Maybe you get something declined or not covered, and you have to fight a little bit and then you get it covered again. It's not something that's going to bankrupt you or kill you. But that's a reality for many, many people around the country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if it's not bankrupt or kill, it's long, grinding trauma over a long period of time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's just so easy for us to lose sight of stuff like that and then not understand as a political party, why addressing those problems directly wouldn't matter. And when I say us in that case, I mean people who are economically comfortable and who have educated and are doing okay in this society. And so all this is what Barber's comments bring up for me is, he is trying to pay attention to real needs that real people have, and alert his party, the Democrats, to the fact that if they understood and paid attention to and took those needs seriously, they would have a ton of voters who nobody's counting on right now. Like there's no strategy around them.It's not you would be stealing voters from the Republicans, you would be bringing in a whole bunch of new voters and doing something that no one is expecting, and you'd be able to [laughs] actually make a big difference that way. Jonathan, if you have any thoughts or just your own responses to me, or your own thoughts.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think there's a there's a few things like, yeah, I'm grateful for John Blake and for media personalities that take the time to center the most marginalized people, because that was not the conversation. All the post mortem of the Democratic Party and the celebration of what Trump did, neither one of those things included real solutions for materially impoverished people in the United States. They were not a group of people that were, when you said, counted, it's literally they're not counted. They do not count in that way. There isn't analysis, there isn't engagement. And so that I think is deeply saddening. So I'm grateful for John Blake for highlighting it. I'm grateful for Barber for the work that he does.I think one of the things that highlights for me is the… because you use the word elite, and I think there was an essay a while ago that I read about the word elite and what it means and how we use it. Like Tucker Carlson says the elites, when in reality he is elite. Elite is Hell.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The money that he makes, the universities that he went to, the position that he holds. Me and you are elite. We both have Ivy League educations, we both have graduate degrees. We are both financially secure, we are both educated and well connected. And the majority of, some of that, that I realize is that if I have those things I am insulated from the suffering that millions of people experience around health insurance. And because our classes in the United States are segregated and our churches are also often segregated, we are not going to have relationships with people that are struggling with these things. It's very difficult, at least for me, to live in Queens, to have conversations and relationships that are cross class.My children participate in activities that cost money. That's a proxy for a class decision. I drive, I do not take the train. That is a class communication. I live in a home and I own it, I do not rent. That's a class. I drive to a supermarket like Costco. You have to pay for a membership to be in Costco. These are all economic decisions, and there are going to be certain groups of people that I do not interact with every single day, because I have more money. And so I think if we stretch that out across the Democratic, Republican independent leadership in our country, the majority of us do not interact with people that are from a different class, higher or lower. And so we have these caricatures of what life looks like, which is why an executive can say it doesn't matter if we deny or defend or depose or delay or all the things that were written on these bullets that came from the person that killed the United Healthcare CEO.The reality is, I think we do not… I don't think, I know this, we do not prioritize the poor in this country. And to what you were saying, it's not that we don't prioritize poor and marginalized people, it's a strategic, intentional exclusion of them. So [laughs] like you said, the reality is, if you were not a wealthy land-owning White person, you were not allowed to vote or hold elected office. And so that's a reality. So each time a tier of people wanted to be included, there was an argument, there was a fight, there was war, there was violence. And so I believe that there is an opportunity that Barber is talking about too. It does not have to be violent to include people who are poor and marginalized.It's really just a decision to and the time and intentionality to do it. And I wish that the church did that. I wish that politicians did that. I wish that we did that as a society. And I recognize in my own life it is even still difficult to do because of how our society has set up invisible and very real fences between economic communities.Sy Hoekstra: And it's remarkable for you to say that in some ways. I mean, it makes sense that you would be the person to notice it, but it is remarkable in some ways for you to say it because you grew up as you've talked about many times, quite poor in the rural south.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And you are actually directly connected to people who don't have a lot of money, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's still your reality that your day to day life does not involve that many poor people.Jonathan Walton: Right. And that is, to be totally transparent, that is one of the hardest things about getting older and having children. When we go home, when I say home I'm thinking Brodnax.Sy Hoekstra: The small farming town in Virginia that you're from.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Where I'm from. It's exceptionally clear to me that the access that I have to resources, the decisions that I'm making each day are infused with the wealth and resources that surround me, just by virtue of the location that I live in. So we have to do really, really, really hard work to include people who are across classes in our lives, so that when we consider what we're going to do with our power, they are included in that decision. And I think Barber did a great job of explaining why that is strategically important as well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so two points. One is, thank you for talking about that. For those of you who don't know, Jonathan and I are good friends. That's why I can say, “Hey Jonathan, let's talk about [laughs] your background as a poor person.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We've talked about this a ton on the show before, Jonathan is very open about it in public. And that, I actually think, hearing you talk about the tension and how your hometown is versus your new adopted home, a lot of that is actually part of the answer. Just people being willing to be totally open about their own financial circumstances, and the differences they see between places, because that is something that we hush up and we talk about, we make it shameful to talk about your money. We make it shameful for everyone to talk about their money. You're not supposed to talk about it if you're rich, you're not supposed to talk about it if you're poor [laughs]. You're basically only supposed to talk about it if you're right where the Republicans think real Americans are [laughter]. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And yeah, just being willing to talk about it openly and in a not ashamed way actually goes a long ways to breaking some of the taboos that hold the silence on these issues. That's one thing. The other thing is, you said at the end just now, that William Barber would argue that it is strategic to basically address the needs of the poor voters who are not voting. But earlier you said it is a strategic exclusion, or like a strategic that they're evading talking about these issues.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. So in the Constitution, there is a strategic exclusion of poor, marginalized, non-White-land-owning-educated-well-healed people. There's the intentional strategic exclusion of those people for the maintenance of power and dominance, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I think there needs to be a strategic, intentional inclusion of those people, and the intentional redistribution, and I know people hate that word, redistribution [laughs] of resources, so that people can be included in our society in a meaningful way.Sy Hoekstra: Well, Jonathan's a communist. You heard it here first.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] It's not the first time I've been accused of loving the Marx.Sy Hoekstra: Loving the… [laughs]. But I think the other aspect of it is just, the reality is that the donors that support both parties, these are not priorities of theirs. In fact, a lot of times they're opposed to the priorities of theirs. They are the healthcare CEOs. They are the people who have to negotiate against the unions. They are the people who would have to pay up the higher minimum wages. So that's part of the thing that makes it challenging. But Barber's been able to do the work [laughs] in North Carolina and make a difference there. And it's not… and he was one of the people, organizing like his is what made North Carolina a swing state in the first place from a traditionally deep red state. So it's worth trying, guys [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is.Sy Hoekstra: Take a look, Democrats.Jonathan Walton: Worth trying.Sy Hoekstra: It's worth trying [laughs]. It's not just worth trying for political victories either. It's also worth actually addressing poor people's needs [laughs], to be clear about what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I think I was convicted. Like, Shane Claiborne said this and others like Merton has said this, and Howard Thurman said this, and MLK said it, and Jesus said it. The center of the church should be marginalized people. That should actually be the thing. “The poor will always be with us,” is not an endorsement of poverty. That's not what that is. You know what I mean? [laughter] Some people were like, “Well, people are supposed to be poor, and I'm supposed to…”Sy Hoekstra: I know. I know. Or, the poor will always be with us, and that means that we should not try to end poverty, because Jesus said you can't end it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. That, no. But the reality that that is a broken, tragic theology that aligns with White American folk religion and requires no sacrifice from people who are on the upper end of a dominant hierarchy. That's what that is. Yeah. I hope that even if the political parties of the United States do not pay attention to what to what Barber is saying, that the Church will. That would be great.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright. I think we're just gonna end it there. I already did the outro and everything, the credits and all that stuff in the Live episode, so I think Jonathan and I at this point are just going to say thank you all so much for listening. We will see you in January for the next episode. Goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Bye [laughter].[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with, meaning the person who youJonathan Walton: [burps].Sy Hoekstra: [laughs], remember, I can't mute you if you just burp into your microphone.Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. My apologies. [laughter] Welcome to live everyone.Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to live Substack.Jonathan Walton: I drank a ton of water. They saw me just do that [laughter].

Top of 2024 // One of Our Most Engaged Episodes of 2024What is our responsibility as pastors and ministry leaders in understanding and addressing Christian nationalism? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Caleb Campbell. Caleb is the lead pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and a regional director for the Surge Network. His most recent book is entitled Disarming Leviathan. Together, Caleb and Jason look at what Christian nationalism is and what it is not. Caleb also shares some practical ways that your local church can engage in mission, honoring God, loving others, and addressing Christian nationalism.Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more at http://PastorServe.org/networkSome key takeaways from this conversation:Caleb Campbell on the importance of patriotism as a mindset that not only values one's own country and culture but also respects and acknowledges the worth and equality of others, especially those from different ethnic backgrounds: "Patriotism has a positive view of the other. It recognizes that the ethnic other is also valuable and equal."Caleb Campbell on the significance of aligning one's actions and teachings with the principles and example set forth by Christ: "If someone is taking up the name of Christ, and then calling us to behave in ways that are not like Christ, then they are in error."Caleb Campbell on the importance of personal integrity, values, and moral conduct: "The teachings of our Messiah are that your character matters and the end is in God's hands."----------------Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. Love well, live well, & lead well Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | FacebookConnect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram...

Jon continues his review of Wheaton College's Polarization and Peacemaking Event featuring Elizabeth Neumann, Former Homeland Security official and Caleb Campbell, Lead Pastor Desert Springs Bible Church.To Support the Podcast: https://www.worldviewconversation.com/support/Become a Patronhttps://www.patreon.com/worldviewconversationFollow Jon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jonharris1989Follow Jon on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/worldviewconversation/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/conversations-that-matter8971/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode 50! Family fighting at the holidays can ruin the whole day, so how can we avoid it? In this episode, we dive into what it means to be peacemakers with that relative who loves to pick fights.  Referenced materials: Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell

Pastor Caleb Campbell joins the podcast to discuss how pastors might guide their congregations through the results of the 2024 election, drawing from his experience pastoring in Phoenix, AZ. He also discusses his book "Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor." How can we helpfully engage those in their community who align with combative political perspectives? How can pastors support members who are struggling to have conversations with family members, or for whom the election stirs up difficult emotions? This and more on today's episode. 

Caleb Campbell is the lead pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ, and is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. His book, Disarming Leviathan (InterVarsity Press) equips Christians to minister to their Christian Nationalist neighbors. -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's our season finale! We're answering listener questions and talking:-        Staying grounded and emotionally healthy post-election-        Some mistakes people are making in their election analysis-        Why the politics of identity will never go away in America-        How the Church can and can't fight anti-Blackness and other forms of injustice-        Where you can hear us in between seasons-        And a lot more!Mentioned in the Episode:-        Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor by Rev. Caleb Campbell-        Our newsletter from last week with a worship playlist and sermon Jonathan recommended-        The Webinar Intervarsity is doing with Campbell on Tuesday – Register here.-        The article on patriarchy by Frederick Joseph: “For Palestinian Fathers, Sons, and Brothers”-        Our free guide to processing and acting on the injustices you encounterCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: The beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work and goodness. The church is beautiful when it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today. It's our season four finale. We're answering listener questions and continuing our discussion from our Substack live conversation two weeks ago, about where to go from the Trump election as followers of Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: And because this is the finale, let me just take a quick second to tell you where we are going from here. We are gonna be doing our monthly bonus episodes for our paid subscribers, like we usually do when we are not on a season of this show. We are going to be doing them though slightly differently. You will have the opportunity to hear them at one point if you're not a paid subscriber, because we're gonna record them like we did two weeks ago on Substack Live. So if you want to see those when they are being recorded, download the Substack app. If you get on our free emailing list, you'll be notified when we start. You just need to go ahead and get that app, it's both on iOS and Android.And if you wanna make sure that you're getting our emails in your Gmail inbox, because we've heard some people tell us they're going to the promotions folder or whatever Gmail is trying to do to filter out your spam, but actually filtering out the stuff that you wanna see, you just have to either add us to your contacts, or if it's in the promotions folder, just click the “Not promotion” button that you can see when you open your email. Or you can actually just drag and drop emails that show up in your folders to your inbox, and then it'll ask you, “Hey, do you wanna always put emails from the sender in your inbox?” And you can just click, yes. So do one of those things, add us to your contact, drag and drop, click that “Not promotions” button that'll help you see those notifications from us.Jonathan Walton: If you'd like access to the recordings of those bonus episodes, plus access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com. We would so appreciate it and you would be supporting our work that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics, and culture to help you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are two friends resisting the idols of the American church in order to follow Jesus faithfully, and would love for you to join us. So become a paid subscriber at KTFPpress.com.Sy Hoekstra: And we've said this before, but we should probably say it again. If you want a discounted subscription or if money's a barrier to you joining us as a paid subscriber, just email us, info@ktfpress.com. We'll give you a free subscription or a discounted subscription, no questions asked. You will not be the first person to do it if you do. Other people have done it, we've given it to them. We won't make it weird because we want everyone to have access to everything that we're doing. But if you can afford to support us, please as Jonathan said, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Let's jump into it, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man.Sy Hoekstra: We, a couple weeks ago on our Substack Live, we were talking about processing through grief and like what we have been hearing from people. We've had lots of questions and lots of conversations since then. So we're sort of combining, amalgamating [laughs] lots of subscriber questions into one, or even just questions from friends and family. I just wanna know how you are continuing to process the election and what you're thinking about grief and how we move forward, or how we look back and see what exactly happened.Staying Grounded and Emotionally Healthy Post-ElectionJonathan Walton: Yeah. So I think that one of the things I just have to acknowledge is that I'm tired of talking about it, and not okay talking about it. Like just the level of energy it takes to have regulated, like emotionally regulated healthy conversations is exhausting.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so, just naming that. So last week I think I was in a better place than this week recording. And so I'm recognizing I need to be able to take steps back and set boundaries so that I can be in a healthier place. And I just encourage everybody to do that. We all need rhythms and disciplines that keep us grounded. That is not like, oh, when I'm in this season, I need spiritual discipline. No. We actually are supposed to have them all the time. But I think in moments like these and seasons like this, we actually need them just in a more pointed way. It reminds us that we do. So those are things that I'm doubling down on, like starting to listen to worship music.If you check out last week's newsletter, I actually had a worship set from a worship leader in Columbus, Ohio, who basically said, if you can't sit across someone who has a different political perspective than you, then you probably can't worship with them. So let's start off with worship. And so they made a, I don't know, a six hour playlist of songs from different traditions and said like, play it without skipping it. Without skipping a song. Don't be like, “I don't like this song, I don't like this. I don't like…” This reminds me of them. Like, just listen to the whole album because somebody who is different from you meets Jesus through the words of the song. And he said, “You would never know that I don't like some of the songs that we sing [laughter], but I sing them. And I thought that was just a really honest thing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. You said it was six hours long?Jonathan Walton: It's a lot. I haven't made it through a third of it.Sy Hoekstra: Okay [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's long. And the sermon is also linked in the newsletter as well. It's just a great message from Pastor Joshua.Sy Hoekstra: This is a pastor in Ohio that you're familiar with?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: How did you get connected to this?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So someone on the political discipleship team for InterVarsity, shout out to Connie Anderson, who's written…Sy Hoekstra: Oh, great.Jonathan Walton: …a lot of our stuff. Our InterVarsity stuff.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Not KTF stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. She just, she said, “Hey, I really appreciated the sermon and I was able to listen to it, and I'm working my way through the songs. And if I skip a song, I'm gonna go back, because I'm not the only person on my Spotify. Shout out to all the Moana and Frozen tracks that get stuck in there.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So all that to say, that's like the first big thing, is setting boundaries, trying to have healthier rhythms so that I can be fully present to my family and myself.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Having Difficult Conversations by Meeting People Where They AreJonathan Walton: Also, I think it's really important to remember, particularly when I'm frustrated, I have to remember to meet people where they're at the way that Jesus met me. I have not always known that Christian Nationalism was bad. I didn't always have another term for it that captures the racialized, patriarchal environmental hierarchy of it called White American folk religion. I didn't always know about police brutality and the rural urban divide. I didn't know about those things. And what I desperately needed and unfortunately had, was patient people who were willing to teach me. And so as we're having these conversations, there's a book called Disarming Leviathan, ministering to your Christian Nationalist neighbor. It's really, really good. We're doing an event that you will hear about in our newsletter as well with the author of that booked Caleb Campbell.Sy Hoekstra: And when you say we, in that case again, you mean InterVarsity?Jonathan Walton: Oh, shoot.Sy Hoekstra: It doesn't matter [laughs].Jonathan Walton: I do mean InterVarsity. There's a little bit of overlap here because the season is so fraught.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like [laughs], and so you're gonna hear about that in a newsletter as well. InterVarsity Press is promoting it, InterVarsity's promoting it. Pastors and teachers are promoting it because the reality is, we all need to figure out how to tackle difficult conversations.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: And we use that verb specifically, like it's elusive. We have to go after it [laughs] to be able to…Sy Hoekstra: You have to go wrangle it.Jonathan Walton: Yes, because it's hard. It's really, really hard. We would rather run away. We would rather run away from difficult conversations. So meeting people where they're at, we do that because Jesus meets us where we are. Our compassion, our gentleness is in outpouring of the compassion and gentleness that we've meditated on and experienced for ourselves and are willing to embody with other people. So those would be my biggest things from the last week or last two weeks since we last talked about this stuff. What about you?Healthy Reactions to the Election Are Different for Different PeopleSy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's good. We actually had, speaking of people who have a, like a different rhythm or need to adjust something now to be emotionally healthy, we actually had a subscriber, I won't give any details, but write in who's overseas, who basically said, “I've got too much going on in the country that I live in. I can't deal with American stuff right now. I need to unsubscribe from you.” They're on the free list. And I was like, “Man, I understand [laughs].”Jonathan Walton: Yes, right. I would like to unsubscribe from this [laughter]. No, I'm just joking, just joking.Sy Hoekstra: I appreciate that he wrote in to explain why he was unsubscribing. That doesn't necessarily happen a lot…Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: But it's very understandable and it's really sad, but I totally get it. And I want people to take care of themselves in that way. And I think, I mean, the flip side of that is we had a ton of people in the last week or week and a half sign up for the free list because I think a lot of people are just looking for ways to process, right [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: They are looking for people who are having these conversations, which happens. We got started, this company got started during the 2020 election, putting together the anthology that we put together, and we had a lot of response at that point too, and people who are just like, “Yes, I need to hear more of this processing.” And the difference now is there are fortunately, like a lot of people doing this work from all kinds of different angles all around the country, which is a very good thing, I think. We could be tempted to think of it as competition or whatever, but the church [laughs] has to come at this from as many angles as possible. There need to be as many voices doing the work of trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and seek justice as there are people promoting Christian Nationalism, and we're… those numbers are nowhere close to parody [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: Not remotely close.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. No, they are not [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Unfortunately, that's a reality of the American church. So, anyways, I appreciate all those thoughts very much, Jonathan.Mistakes People Are Making in Election AnalysisSy Hoekstra: I think when I'm thinking about the conversations that I've had, I have a couple thoughts that come to mind. I think a lot of the things that I think about in the conversations in the last week and a half are people trying to figure out what happened, like looking back and like playing the blame game [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the excuses that people are making, or the blame is shifting for why Trump matters now, because you can't say he lost the popular vote anymore. Obviously he won the electoral college the first time, but he lost popular vote, and then he lost the popular vote to Biden plus the electoral college. Now he's won it, and so people are not as able to, to the extent that people were still trying to paint him as an aberration from the norm.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: …that's getting harder. It's getting harder to say, “Oh, this is just a blip on the radar and we'll come back to our normal situation at some point, some undetermined point in the future. But so they're shifting blame to other people. It's like, oh, various non-White groups increased their votes for Trump. Or young people increased their votes for Trump or something.Which Party Wins Tells Us A Lot Less about America Than Who Is an Acceptable Candidate in the First PlaceSy Hoekstra: To me, a lot of that stuff, if you're trying to say that Donald Trump represents a problem with the whole country that you're trying to diagnose how it happened, all those conversations are a little bit silly, because the problem is that he's like a viable candidate who people voted for in the first place. But the people to blame for electing Donald Trump are the people who voted for Donald Trump, which is more than half of the voters in America. Not much more, but more.And the reason it's like a little bit silly to talk about what's different than the prior elections is, the prior elections were like Trump's gonna win this election, the popular vote. Trump's gonna win the popular vote by like two or three percent probably. It could be a little bit different than that, but basically Trump's gonna get slightly more than 50 percent, Kamala Harris is gonna get slightly less than 50 percent. And that's usually how it goes. That is the reality of this, how this country works. We have a winner take all system, and so typically speaking, it's a little over 50 and a little under 50. The swings between who gets elected in any given year, president, we're playing with marginal things. Democratic strategists, Republican strategists are trying to figure out how to fiddle with the margins to get what they want.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It was only seven states in this country that actually mattered [laughs]. Like 86 percent of the states in this country were decided and then we're just playing with seven states. We're just playing with little numbers. And so all of these, like all Black people went slightly more for Trump. Young people went slightly more for Trump, whatever. It'll go back later. I don't know if you saw this, Jonathan, on Monday this week. So last week, if you're listening to this, John Stewart brought out the map of the 1984 election. Did you see this?Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. It was so interesting [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's like it was completely one color.Sy Hoekstra: It's red, yeah.Jonathan Walton: And you're like, “What? Whoa, this looks like a candy cane without the White” [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Right, exactly.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: If you've never seen the Reagan-Mondale electoral map, literally the entire country, except for Minnesota is red. The whole country went for Ronald Reagan. So that's like, it's one of the biggest landslides in history, and the popular vote for Ronald Reagan, I decided to look that up, was less than 59 percent.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You get the whole country. You have to get 270 electoral votes to win, he got like 520 something.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: He crushed Mondale. But eight years later, bill Clinton is in office and we're kind of back to normal. We're back to America's normal, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It's so small, these little things, and we just have to stay focused on, the problem here is that both of our parties in different ways, to different degrees are just infused with White supremacy and White American folk religion and patriarchy and everything else. And Donald Trump can be a viable candidate in the United States.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: That's the problem [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right, that is the problem.Sy Hoekstra: We have to stop talking about, I don't care what Gen Z did. Gen Z will change just like everybody else has changed. Election to election, things will be different. Anybody who thought that, “Oh, just a new generation of people in the United States of America growing up is gonna fundamentally change the United States of America.” How? Why did you think that [laughter]? Why? Why? Why would the children of the people, who were the children of the people, who were the children of the people who have been in the same country for years and years, generation after generation, why would that just be something fundamentally different? It's the same people, they're just a bit younger. I don't know. I never get those kinds of arguments.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Facing the Reality of America's BrokennessSy Hoekstra: What I'm saying is, I think underlying a lot of those arguments though, is a desire to have some control over something. To have something that we can say is certain that we're changing, that we can be the good people that we thought Americans fundamentally were again, or something like that. It's about control and trying to wrap your mind around something. I think instead of just facing the reality that we live in a deeply flawed country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is, should be biblically speaking, unsurprising.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is also difficult. It's unsurprising and it's difficult to deal with. Facing the reality of the brokenness of the world, not a fun thing to do. We've talked about this before.The People to Blame for the Election are the Mostly White and Male People Who Voted for TrumpJonathan Walton: Well, I think it would be helpful for people to remember, in all the things you're talking about, Trump did not win the popular vote last time, he won it this time. Trump won the electoral college, right? Let's actually just for a moment identify the voting population of the United States of America. So there are 336 million people in the United States per the population tracker today, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: There are 169 million people who voted in the election in 2020. The numbers are not final for 2024.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's gonna be less, it'll be less than that though.Jonathan Walton: It's less. So let's say 165 million people voted in the election this time. And that's generous. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So that's less than 50 percent of the country that actually voted. Then we take into the account that 70 percent of this country of the voting population is still White. Okay friends?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Roughly, I would say. Yeah, that's true.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: People give different estimates of that, but it doesn't get much lower than like 65 [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. So let's even go with 65 percent.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah. Right. [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So let's say 65 percent of that voting population is White, and then half of that population is male. And Trump did an exceptional job at mobilizing White slash men in the United States to go and vote. An exceptional job. Looking at that population and saying, “We are gonna make sure that you feel invited, welcomed and empowered.” Joe Rogan's show [laughs], these other influencers, how he advertised. If you look at who was on stage in these different venues when he was campaigning, all men. And the women, I think it's very important to notice this. I think when he gave his acceptance speech, his now chief of staff that they called the Iron Lady or something like that. The Ice Lady, Iron Lady, something like that.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's what they called her. And then she declined the invitation to speak. And so I think that when we are sitting here saying, “Oh man, how could people vote this way?” We are not talking about the entire population of the United States.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: We are talking about a little less than half of the voters in the United States, and then we are talking about 50 percent of that group. We're not talking about people under 18, generation alpha. We're not talking about the vast majority of Gen Z. We're talking about the same voters we've been talking about for the last 30 years [laughs]. The voting population of White adults in the United States. That's who we're talking about. We could blame, oh, this group or that group, but I agree with what you're saying. We have to face the reality that at some point we have to talk about race and we have to talk about gender. When we talk about identity politics, we don't name White and male as an identity.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: We don't. We call it something else. We say, oh, like the working class or all these other things. But we need to just say, if we look at how White people are voting and we look at how men are voting, then we have the answer to I think, how Trump was elected. But those two things are third rails. Or like in New York City, you don't touch the third rail, it's electric because of the subway.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So we don't talk about that. And I think, I don't say that because I wanna blame people, I'm just naming statistics. These are just numbers. The numbers of people who are voting, the demographics they represent, this is the group. So when Sy says, who is responsible for Trump's election, it is the majority of White Americans who vote, and men in this country of all races who lean towards hey, opting into patriarchy in ways that are unhelpful.Sy Hoekstra: It's not of all races [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well, I will say that the increases of Black men, the increases of Latino men, Trump did grow his share of the Black male vote by double digits. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, but it's still a minority of the Black male vote.Jonathan Walton: It is. I'm just saying, I do not want to discount the reality that patriarchy is attractive to all races.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: That's what I wanna name. And so when Fred Joseph, amazing author, talks about the attractiveness of patriarchy, I think that is something that all men need to say no to.Sy Hoekstra: This is an essay that we highlighted in our newsletter like a month or two ago.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I'll put the link in the show notes.Jonathan Walton: We have to say no to patriarchy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so anyway, that's my rant in response to this [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, no. That's good, and that actually gets into it, the other thing I wanted to talk about was, which even though I think some of these blame game conversations are such like nonsense, we are still able within those nonsense conversations to say a lot of things that are just demonstrably false [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.The Politics of Identity Will Never Die in AmericaSy Hoekstra: And what you just said is one of them. Like I've seen some people talking about, “Oh, the democrats lost because they ran on identity politics,” or, “Identity politics is over.” And I'm like, “What are you talking about [laughter]?” Donald Trump is all identity politics.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It was all about White men and how they were gonna be comfortable and empowered how Christians are gonna be in powered again.Jonathan Walton: How women are gonna be taken care of, whether they like it or not.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah right. Men are gonna be back in power. How citizens are gonna have what they deserve, and then we're gonna stop giving it to the illegal immigrants, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Like everything Donald Trump does is about identity. And the bigger thing to say is identity politics in America is not a current or temporary trend. Identity politics is baked into the foundation of the country, and it was not Black people who did it [laughs]. It was the founding fathers who created a system where only White men could be naturalized and only rich White men could vote, and we enshrined racial slavery, all that stuff. Identity politics has been here from day one. It's not like a liberal thing. It was a thing that we baked in on purpose, and it's a thing that came from European culture and it's still fundamental to European culture to this day.Sy Hoekstra: And I, what I think what people mean when they talk about identity politics is, it's another one of the endless string of words that we use since racial slurs became impolite. We can't say the N word anymore. It's another way of saying it's Black people talking about Black people stuff. Right? When people talk about identity politics, they're saying the wrong identity politics, because everybody is talking about identity politics all the time. They're just, like you said, not calling it identity politics. They're talking about “real America” [laughs], right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: They're talking about, we know what they mean by real America. They're talking about White men and they're just saying this is the default culture. We're all just assuming this is the default culture, everything else is identity politics. Nonsense.Jonathan Walton: Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's one of the nonsense things that shows up in the conversation as a result of a nonsense thing that we say that we think all the time on some subconscious level that we're not always talking about identity politics, even though we absolutely are. And it's because it's been forced upon us. It's not because somebody's trying to create divisions.Jonathan Walton: Right.The Democrats Are the Party the Non-White Working Class Voted ForSy Hoekstra: A similar thing is, I heard people talking about the Democrats are not the party of the working class anymore. The working class is not voting for the Democrats because, and then, obviously the White working class is voting for Trump, and then start to talk about the gains that Trump made among the non-White working class. Again, the majority of everybody in the non-White working class is not voting for Donald Trump. And assuming that voters have some idea of what's good for them and who better represents them, maybe not who best represents them, but who better represents them, the Democrats are still the party of the non-White work—we're talking about the White working class again, you know what I mean? We're trying to make it about economics and it's actually about race. That's a thing that we're doing all the time, constantly [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well [laughs], the reality is that economics is about race.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's like, if we could just like get some daylight between them, then maybe we could make a separation. And so then it just becomes about keeping that separation in place, because if we bring them back together, the system falls apart. It literally crumbles if you call it out. And something that I'll just name, because I think in all these conversations, even as me and Sy are saying, oh, this Democrat about that Democrat, like this is the Republican or that race, when we call out differences, when we name things, our goal is not to dehumanize anybody, dismiss people's needs or grievances, or minimize the reality and perspectives that people have.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.Jonathan Walton: The goal and hope is that we would actually grasp reality, name the idol and follow Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah, exactly.Jonathan Walton: That is our goal and our hope and our aim, because if we can't say it as is, we will never be able to address and communicate with the most marginalized people. And we'll never be able to communicate a vision that draws people in power towards something even more loving and beautiful, unless we name the thing as it is. And so hopefully that is breaking through to folks who might come across this conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I agree. I can get very passionate about these facts and stats and whatever. And I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't…Jonathan Walton: No [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: …agree with me is somehow a bad person. I'm just, this is, it's important, like you said. It's an important goal that I'm trying to move us toward.Jonathan, we got a great question from a listener that I wanted to talk about. You cool moving on, or do you have more thoughts?Jonathan Walton: No, no. Let's do it.What Can the Church Do about Continuing Anti-Blackness?Sy Hoekstra: Alright. So what can the church, practically speaking, do about ongoing anti-Blackness in the country? And not just correct disinformation or post on social media, what can the church practically speaking do? That was the question. Jonathan, solve anti-Blackness. Go.Support Black Spaces, No Strings AttachedJonathan Walton: There's a reason that enrollment at HBCUs is surging right now.Sy Hoekstra: Ah, okay.Jonathan Walton: And that is because when the world is unsafe or feels unsafe, or the reality that, “Oh, trying to get to the master's table and eat is actually not that great,” we're gonna recede back into our communities. And so I think one thing that the church can do is support Black spaces. So financially support Black spaces, empower Black spaces. I did not say create Black spaces moderated by you, that you will then curate for, andSy Hoekstra: Control.Jonathan Walton: Yes, control would be the right word, for an experience that other people can observe. Like, “Oh, this is what Black people really think.” Like no, just support Black spaces. Black, sacred, safe spaces that help and care for us in this moment. The number of Black women that are being harassed online, like showing up to their jobs, walking down the streets in different cities, is radically disturbing to me.And if we wanna get into the intersectionality of it, like when we talk about like Black, queer people, the numbers that the Trevor Project is recording, it's like the Trevor Project is a alphabet community support organization, particularly to prevent suicide. And so their phone calls are up in the last two weeks. So I think we as a church, as followers of Jesus need to create and then sustain spaces for Black folks to hang out in and feel a part of that we control. Kathy Khang, the author of Raise Your Voice said in a workshop that I was in one time, “Spaces that marginalized communities are in, we feel like renters, we don't feel like owners.” So we can't move the furniture. We're not really responsible for anything, but we're just, we could exist there and do what we need to do.Sy Hoekstra: But it's not a home.Jonathan Walton: It's not a home. And so I would want to encourage churches, small groups, bible studies, community groups, parachurch organizations to create spaces for Black folks by Black folks to be able to thrive in and feel a sense of community in. The other thing that I would say is that the church could educate itself around the complexities of Blackness. And so there's the Black, racially assigned Black Americans in the United States that are the descendants of enslaved people. Then there's Caribbean folks that are the descendants of enslaved Africans and the colonizers there. And then there's Central and South American and Mexican. There's a lot of beauty and complexity in Blackness.And so obviously, Ta-Nehisi Coates's book The Message, talks about that in ways that are exceptionally helpful and complex. So that would be a great book to dive into. And again, create educational, engaging spaces around. This education, quote- unquote, educating yourself, not asking Black folks to spend their time educating you. Doing that work, creating those spaces, supporting those spaces financially, time, resources, et cetera, and creating spaces for Black folks to feel and be safe, I think would be just exceptionally helpful in this season. Yes, share on social media. Yes, send messages to your friends. Yes, do all those things on your own time and on your own dime. But I think these are two things that could be helpful because it's not gonna go away the next four years. It's probably gonna be more intense. And so I think creating and sustaining of those places would be helpful.Sy Hoekstra: At least sustaining, you don't have to create.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that's true. There are some that are already there. That's true. Find a place, donate, support, host. Hey, provide the space. Buy food, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the reason I say that is you could end up with people who just go to Black people and are like, “Hey, we'll give you money and you get to do a bunch of work to create a space or,” you know what I mean? And there's also the instinct to say, if we're gonna support something, we have to create it.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We don't. We can support things that other people are already doing. There might be people in your congregation who are already doing that as their job. Just give them money. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The more you're not in charge, the fewer strings are attached. Jonathan already talked about that. Even if those strings are implicit or not even there, but they're just perceived to be there, and that could be a problem too. So it's good to just give money to stuff that already exists or give support. Give volunteer work, whatever. Good, I appreciate that. Thank you for having practical answers.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No worries. I'm glad you sent it to me earlier so I could think about it.Educating Ourselves on Fighting Racism Works (Sometimes)Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah [laughs]. Continuing to educate ourselves is a good thing too. And I think I've actually seen some of the difference in that. I know this is, there is so far to go and there's so much to do in terms of educating ourselves, but I can personally tell you from having watched a lot of Christians go through the Trayvon Martin case and Ferguson and everything. And I'm saying Christians who want to be supportive of Black people, who want to be helpful, who want to be anti-racist, all that stuff. I saw a lot of people who in 2012, ‘13, ‘14 were just like babies. Just starting out, didn't know what to say. Didn't know whether they could go protest, didn't know why All Lives Matter wasn't appropriate. Like, “Don't all lives matter though?” All that kind of stuff.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Even when you're trying to be helpful, you know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Right, right, right.Sy Hoekstra: And then 2020 comes around and I saw a bunch of those exact same people being like, “I'm gonna go march! Black Lives Matter, let's go.” You know what I mean? So people really can learn and they really can change. And the problem is that you just have to keep doing it to every new generation of people that comes up, and it takes years to do. It's not something that you can do in a couple of sermons or one course that you take or whatever. And again, I know they're so far to go, I'm not trying to say… I understand that you can work for years. A White person can work for years, and the differences can be trivial and frustrating and like enraging. But it's also true that people can learn [laughs]. And talking about meeting people where they are, that's kind of what I'm saying to White people as we're trying to educate ourselves and others.Educating Each Other about Race Is a Long, Continuous ProcessJonathan Walton: Yeah, and to build off of something that you said before too, it's like Donald Trump was elected eight years ago, and some people were not alive eight years ago. And some people were 10 years old, eight years ago. So they didn't even…Sy Hoekstra: And now they're voting.Jonathan Walton: And now they're voting. So like Trayvon Martin was killed 12 years ago. They may not have the same knowledge as you, the same awareness as you. So yes, the education and the engagement is ongoing because there's always people that are coming up that had no idea. And I think just going back to what we said in the first part, like you were just saying again, meeting people where they're at because maybe they were too young and they just don't know. Like I was having a conversation this past week and someone said, “Yeah, my mom and dad have been sick. I've made 10 trips to another city the last two years to try and take care of them.” Maybe their world is just small because they've been engaged in loving the people closest to them through illness.We must meet people as best as we possibly can where they're at. And I confess, I have not always done that. And so being able to not be prideful and not be dismissive, and not look down on someone from being ignorant to simply not knowing. And even loving someone who's exceptionally misinformed. As we're doing this recording, one of my friends is meeting with a Christian nationalist right now. Like they're going there. They said, “Alright, can you pray for me, I'm going to have this conversation.” Because it is one conversation at a time that these things change.Sy Hoekstra: I appreciate that. You just reminded me of another story I had, and I won't give details about the individual, but there's someone in my life who is a White person who's from the south, who lives in New York City, who's just one of those people that makes Black people uncomfortable, Jonathan. Just like the moment you meet him, you're like, “something… hmm, I don't know.” And I've heard other Black people talk about him this way. I've heard stuff that's made me uncomfortable. And he was just an easy person to kind of like shun or avoid.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: Until I ran into another extremely kind Black person who told me… we ended up not because of me, because of someone else, in a conversation about this guy, and how he sort of makes people uncomfortable. And he was like, yeah, but he just said in not so many words, I kind of tolerate him because he lost his entire family in Hurricane Katrina, and he lives in New York City and basically has nobody and just works this kind of dead-end job and is not a very happy person. Actually, he is kind of a happy person. He's sort of trying to make the best of it, and he doesn't know what he is doing. You know what I mean? It's just like, you have one of those moments with someone where you're like, “Boy, that changes my view of this person.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: I still don't think any of the things that you're saying to make people uncomfortable are okay, and I'll try and interfere in whatever limited way I can or whatever. But you hear something like that, your heart changes a little bit. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Your attitude changes and like, you just, we gotta get to know each other better. We gotta listen better.We Need Endurance and Truly Practical WisdomSy Hoekstra: I think this question about what can the church do about anti-Blackness, for people who are like kind of our age or older, or people who have been through the 2010s and everything that happened up till now. It's just, it's a question of resilience. And whenever you're engaged in anti-Blackness work or any sort of activist work, you're gonna have these questions of resilience of like, what can we do, because this problem is just still going. And then there's another question of the practicality of it when you're asking that question in the church. I'm gonna define the question a little bit or reframe the question a little bit and then give answers.When you ask the question of something like, what can we practically do about a problem in a Christian context, the question is a little bit strange sometimes, and I think you just gave some good practical answers, but we have both noticed, we talked about this recently. In the Christian world, the word “Practical” often means something different than it does to the rest of the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's true. That's true. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: The phrase practical application just seems to have a different meaning to pastors than it does to everybody else [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And what it tends to mean to professional Christians is, when you're talking about practical application, you're talking about a new way of thinking or a new goal for how you should feel about something.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Or like a new “heart posture” or something like that.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It's a new attitude, but it's not practical. You actually said recently, you came out of a sermon going, “Okay, I kind of know how to think, I don't know what to do with my body. Now, after listening to this sermon.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right, right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: I know what to do with my heart and my head. I don't know what to do with my hands and my feet. And we're supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus, not the heart and the brain.Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And I think, actually, I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I think that problem, it at least promotes racism [laughter]. It promotes institutions remaining as they are. You know what I mean? It promotes, like when we talk about practicality and we're just talking about how we kind of think about things, like the world of ideas and emotions and not what we do politically or whatever, that is a subtle way to reinforce status quo institutions.Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, it is.Sy Hoekstra: And it's not anything to do with the person who asked the question. I'm just acknowledging the reality of how that question lands to Christian ears.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes. Especially institutionalized Christians. Yes, absolutely.The Church Isn't Necessarily the Best Place to Go to Fight RacismSy Hoekstra: And another thing is, I will say, we're talking about the church, the whole wide capital C church. The Black church, is gonna keep doing what it's always done. Black church is gonna do anti-racist work. Obviously, there are problems and questions and whatever that Black people have in their conversations among themselves within the Black church about how to do that best, or what things may be getting in the way of that or whatever. But if you're talking about big picture here, Black church is always fighting racism. I think we're kind of asking questions about the rest of the church. The White church in particular, and then some other churches as well. If we're just talking about the American church in general and what it can do to fight anti-Blackness, if you look at the history of just big picture American church, there are Christians in the United States on both sides of this past election.There are Christians in the United States in history on both sides of the Civil War. There are Christians in the United States on both sides of segregation versus civil rights. There are Christians in the abolition movement, there are obviously Christians in the pro-slavery movement. Christians set up the system of racism and slavery. European Christians did.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: The American church, if you just look at history, is a weird place, is a weird institution to look to, to end anti-Blackness. We have been consistently ambivalent about it for centuries. Do you know what I mean? I understand…Jonathan Walton: No, listen. It's true, and that's sad.Sy Hoekstra: Yes, yes.Jonathan Walton: That reality is depressing, right.Good Things Come from God, Not the ChurchSy Hoekstra: Horribly depressing. And so I understand, one, you just don't want that to be real. So you say, “Hey, what can we do?” Or, you want, and when I say you, again, I don't mean the question asker because I haven't had a conversation or back-and-forth. I'm just saying this is what people could be asking when they ask this question. It could also be the instinct of a lot of White evangelicals, which I can tell you this question asker is not, have the instinct when we say, what can the church do, of kind of thinking that if there's anything good is going to happen in the world, it has to come from the church, and that is so wrong. It is not biblically accurate. You can't look at scripture and go, “Yeah, everything good has to come from the church.” Goodness comes from God. God is the source of goodness, and God sends the rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, and we are very much among the unrighteous. God is the source of goodness, and so we need to acknowledge that we can find goodness outside of the church.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that's a point worth repeating.Sy Hoekstra: Right [laughs]. We can find goodness outside of the church. I will repeat it [laughter]. We can in our congregations have fights that can go on for years and years about how we can just try and move anyone toward anti-Blackness work, and you can work for forever and you can see no fruit. And you could have spent all that time taking the few Christians, because there's always a handful, even in a [laughs], in any church, there's a few people who are sympathetic to whatever you're trying to do.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You can just take them and you are the church, you and your Christians, and go do work with somebody else. You can go to your local mutual aid organization. You can go to your local Black Lives Matter chapter. You can go to whoever. You can go find the people who are doing the work and work with them, and that's fine, because it's still good and it therefore still comes from God. And we don't have to subtly participate or subconsciously participate in the idea that everything good has to come from the church, which is ultimately a colonial and colonizing idea. That is what a church that is going into a country trying to colonize it wants you to think, “Everything good comes from us, so you gotta come here [laughs] for the good stuff. And all those people out there, those are the bad people.”Jonathan Walton: [inhales deeply and sighs] Right. No, I mean, yeah, everything you're saying is true. That was my big sigh there [laughter].All Justice Work Requires Real, Local CommunitySy Hoekstra: So I read a thing this week from Camille Hernandez who wrote a really great book called The Hero and the W***e, which is a look through a womanist theological lens at what we can learn from what the Bible says about basically sexual violence. Fascinating book. Anyways, she was talking about her reading of Mariame Kaba, who I've cited before in this show, who is a famous abolitionist organizer, who basically said a lot of people who have a lot of influence, activists who have a lot of influence, can be sort of confused and unmoored at times like this because they have a lot of influence. They have a lot of people that they can call to go do a march or whatever. But what they don't have is a local community. So like what I was just talking about, taking the few people in your church, if you have a few people in your church and going and doing the work somewhere else, that's your small community.You need people who are on the same page as you, who you love, and they love you and you're there to support each other, and they will ground you in times like this, doing that work together. We'll ground you in times like this and it will give you a way to move forward. It will give you a sense of purpose, it will give you accountability. That's also a fraught word if you grew up in the church [laughter]. But it will give you the good kind of accountability to be able to do the work of anti-Blackness or fight any other kind of injustice, frankly. So that's one important thing.KTF's PACE Guide Will Help You Engage Practically with InjusticeSy Hoekstra: I also think if you want a good framework for how to do things practically when you are fighting anti-Blackness or other forms of injustice, go get our PACE guide [laughs]. We have a guide that we produced a few months ago.If you have signed up recently on our newsletter, or if you want to sign up for our free mailing list, you get it in the welcome email. If you were on our list before a few months ago, you have it in one of your old emails. It's basically a guide for when you encounter issues of injustice in the news or in your everyday life or wherever, how to process it and do something about it in a way that is, actually takes into account your limitations and your strengths, and helps you think through those things and help you kind of grow as you run through this cycle of steps and questions and prayers that we have for you to go through as you are thinking through these things. So PACE is the acronym. You can find out what it stands for and how to go through it if you go get that guide, sign up for our free emailing list if you don't have it. And that will give you a good sense of how to think through you personally in your context, how you can fight anti-Blackness.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: But yeah, on a bigger scale, the reason I'm talking about small things like community and how you personally can work, is I'm not thinking on as grand a scale as what can the church do to end anti-Blackness. Because we're not God, we are not saviors. We are not here to fix everything. God is here to do all those things. So I'm more asking, how do I join in with stuff that's already happening? And again, that's not like a correction to the question asker. It's just where I'm at [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well no, it's a reorientation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: I think something that, and I don't know if this is a generational thing, and I think that me being 38 years old, I have been shaped in a certain way to believe and want institutions to answer big questions as opposed to gathering a group of people and having a community instead of an institution. There's still work that God is doing in me around that, in that communities are vehicles for transformation in the kingdom and institutions it seems are vehicles for power in the world. That's something I'm wrestling with myself because I do think that one of the answers to anti-Blackness is beloved community, not as a concept, but like a practical thing. Like we are checking in on each other, we are going out to dinner, we are sharing recipes.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: We are sending memes and funny videos like that. That is actually some aid that can lift our spirits each day amidst an empire that desires to destroy us.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think a lot of my journey trying to figure out how to do more justice work and follow Jesus, has been asking those smaller questions about what can I do in my own community? Just because I have, you and I, we have limited influence, and we have a church institution that has supported anti-Blackness in a lot of ways and those are just realities. And they're really sad, and the idea that a lot of the church is kind of useless and sort of opposed to the things of God, a lot of people don't wanna accept that. But I think if you don't accept that, you're gonna be running into these frustrations a lot. Like why is the church not doing this? And then trying to find probably solace in just really small things. Like okay, is my church's theology better than yours, or is my… You know, like in things that are not making a difference in the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. Right.The Church Has to Trust in Grace, Not Save the WorldSy Hoekstra: So, I don't know, man. Look, the beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work in goodness. The church is beautiful because… the church is beautiful when, not because, when [laughs] it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world. And that's such a hard thing to do. We so wanna make an institution that is good, that is fundamentally good and that we're a part of it [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well, it's a hard thing to do and accept.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: Because in how we have been cultured downstream of colonization, if there is no effort, then I don't get a gold star, then I'm not included. Like, what do you mean? What do you mean that I'm supposed to play a small part? No, no. I'm supposed to be a star.Sy Hoekstra: I'm supposed to change the world.Jonathan Walton: I'm supposed to change the world, and I'm supposed to build something. I'm supposed to make something. Like we're an entrepreneurial event, we're supposed to do that. And Jesus hung out for 30 years, and then went and got 12 seemingly disqualified people [laughs] to go and do this thing, and then drafted Paul who was woefully unhelpful, the majority of Jesus' journey to then go and take his stuff to the rest of the world. Come on man. This is [laughs]… it's really hard to say yes to that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But when you experience it like you were saying, to live in the grace that governs the universe changes your life.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. People who are free of the need to prove themselves by defeating evil, right [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Lord have mercy [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: That—look, to me that is a beautiful thing. That is one of the things that animates me, that motivates me. That makes me want to get out there and do more. Which is, I don't know, it's counterintuitive. It's counterintuitive to me, but it also works on me. So [laughs] I'm gonna keep focusing on it.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Season Wrap-Up Thoughts, Outro, and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Do you have more thought—I think that's a good place to end it, Jonathan. I don't know if you have more thoughts.Jonathan Walton: No, I don't have more thoughts.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, great.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that you as a White person, or racially assigned White person who's aware of their heritage and trying to engage as best you possibly can across this difference, have so many thoughts. I think that is helpful actually.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, good. Thanks. I appreciate that [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I say that because there's a pastor that I follow, Ben Cremer, he's in Idaho, and experiences that I've had with different leaders, it is exceptionally empowering and feels like a burden is lifted off of my shoulders when people who don't have to carry the burden of Blackness are trying to be thoughtful around how to stop anti-Blackness.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I mean, ditto ableism man.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: If this is your first episode, I'm blind and Jonathan does the same thing to me on those grounds. And I think that's a lot of why our thoughts in relationship works. I'm not good at taking compliments, so I'm just throwing it back on you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No worries. It's all good. If you haven't seen it, somebody should google “Christian Affirmation Rap Battle” where they just try to compliment battle each other. It is amazing. [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: I'm absolutely gonna do that because that sounds like brilliant and pointed satire.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright. Thank you all so much for listening. This has been an incredible season, man. I've had a lot of fun. Fun is a relative word [laughter] when we're talking about the things that we're doing. I've had, I don't know, a very motivating and helpful and stimulating time talking to a lot of the people that we talked to four years ago when we started this, who wrote for us.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: If you haven't listened to those interviews, go back in the season, they're really, really helpful. I feel like they're probably even more helpful in light of how the election turned out. And I don't know, I just appreciate this. I feel like it's been fun. We didn't do it this time, but when we're doing Which Tab Is Still Open and adding, talking about some of our newsletter highlights, I've really appreciated that. I feel like it makes the episode very meaty when we have an interview and some other conversation in there too, and I've just liked what we've put out this season. So thank you, Jonathan for participating in that. Thank you everybody so much for listening.Jonathan Walton: Yep. Yep. And I'm deeply appreciative. I think a brief Which Tab is Still Open that I thought was gonna close was our anthology.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, alright.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I will say we started this four years ago with the anthology and as we're ending this season, the anthology is probably one of the most relevant things.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The leaders that wrote in it, the contributors to it, that work and those essays, I hate and love that they are still relevant.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, right. Same.Jonathan Walton: …and helpful. If you don't have a copy, you should go get one.Sy Hoekstra: Keepingthefaithbook.com, that's where you can find it.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you all so much for listening. Remember, get the Substack app to listen to our monthly recordings of the, the live recordings of our bonus episodes. And if you want to get the recordings of those bonus episodes after the fact, or join our monthly subscriber Zoom calls, become a paid subscriber @ktfpress.com. Or get a discounted or free subscription by just writing into us if money is an obstacle. Make sure you add us to your contacts or drag and drop our emails to your inbox if they're in your promotions folder, just so that you can get everything from us that you need. That's how you're gonna get notified if you don't have the app. That's how you'll get notified when our Substack Lives start.Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robin Burgess. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale, and our editing for a lot of this season was done by Multitude Productions. We are so incredibly grateful for them, they have been friendly and fantastic. Thank you, Brandon, our editor.Jonathan Walton: Appreciate you.Sy Hoekstra: I produced this show along with our incredible paid subscribers. Thank you so much. If you are one of those paid subscribers, we will see you next month. Otherwise, we will see you for season five.Jonathan Walton: See y'all.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: A multi disc Encyclopedia Britannica.Jonathan Walton: Basically.Sy Hoekstra: Do you remember those? Did you have that when you were a kid?Jonathan Walton: I, we definitely bought, my mama definitely bought them. You are absolutely right.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: She did. That man showed up with that suitcase and he left empty handed. That was his goal, he made it.Sy Hoekstra: Oh no [laughs]. Oh no.Jonathan Walton: And you best believe we read all them books.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Hey, ya'll. Today I'm sitting down with Caleb Campbell, who's got a story you need to hear. Caleb's journey takes us from the NFL and West Point to finding a whole new way to “try softer” and show up as our truest selves. He'll talk about what it takes to move past the grind and step into a life of self-compassion and authenticity. If you feel like there's got to be more to life than just pushing for the next goal, Caleb's here to show you another way.Let's dive right in.Highlights: (11:20) Caleb's extraordinary football career(25:56) The importance of self-compassion and vulnerability (32:45) The concept of "trying softer" (36:28) Balancing ambition and inner peace (46:43) The role of grief in finding freedom (58:19) Creating safe spacesFind out more:WebsiteLinkedInInstagram: @caleb_campbellX: caleb_campbellQualia Mind - click hereCoupon Code: SHOCKANDYALL (15% off any purchase)Visit Nicole's on demand fitness platform for live weekly classes and a recorded library of yoga, strength training, guided audio meditations and mobility (Kinstretch) classes, as well: https://www.sweatandstillness.comGrab Nicole's bestselling children's book and enter your email for A FREE GIFT: https://www.yolkedbook.comFind Nicole on Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/nicolesciacca/Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thenicolesciaccaFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicolesciaccayoga/Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1X8PPWCQa2werd4unex1eAPractice yoga with Nicole in person in Santa Monica, CA at Aviator Nation Ride. Get the App to book in: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aviator-nation-ride/id1610561929Book a discovery call or virtual assessment with Nicole here: https://www.calendly.com/nicolesciaccaThis Podcast is Proudly Produced by Wavemakers AudioMentioned in this episode:www.Neurohacker.com/shockandyall and use the code SHOCKANDYALL to get 15% off your first order

In this episode Dr. Ryan and Dr. Matt talk with Caleb Campbell about Christian Nationalism and his book Disarming Leviathan: Loving your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Bio: Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and serves as the regional director for the Surge Network.  About the Book: Pastor Caleb Campbell has watched as Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States. And he's suffered the relational fallout of standing against it, both in his community and his church. While it's possible to be both a Christian and hold Christian nationalist ideas, Christian nationalism itself is an un-Christian worldview, rooted in ideas about power, race, and property that are irreconcilable with Christian faith. Campbell has come to see himself as a missionary to Christian nationalists, reaching out to them with the love and freedom of Jesus Christ. In Disarming Leviathan, Campbell equips Christians to minister to their Christian nationalist neighbors. He introduces the basics of Christian nationalism and explores the reasons so many people are attracted to it. He also addresses a variety of American Christian nationalist talking points and offers questions and responses that humbly subvert these claims and cultivate deeper, heart-level conversations. Christian nationalism is an established feature of the American landscape. Disarming Leviathan can help prepare us to confront it with compassion and hospitality, and with the truth of the good news of Jesus. Buy the book: https://a.co/d/ji4sASh --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/expedition44/support

In this episode of the Ephesiology Podcast, Andrew and Michael conclude a multi-part series entitled This Political Moment with author and pastor Caleb Campbell. His recent book, Disarming Leviathan, discusses the complexities of Christian nationalism. Caleb shares the journey behind his book, opening up about his struggle with cultural polarization within his church and the relational … Continue reading "Episode 186: Caleb Campbell's Disarming Leviathan"

Doug and Bob chat with Pastor and author Caleb Campbell about the opportunities for discipleship and mission that are ahead of us in the election cycle. He brings into view some practical and creative ways to love and care for folks in your congregation who are living into the political fear in this season.  Caleb has had a lot of experience in this world as his church was deeply impacted by the 2020 election.  If your church is praying and actively working through ways forward or you are feeling the divide in your community during this election cycle, you are going to want to give this a listen to.  Caleb's Book: Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor We'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line. Doug – Douglas@bendingbranches.org Bob – bob@kairospartnerships.org **Monday Morning Pastor is produced by the incredibly gifted Joel Limbauan. Check out his great video and podcast work at On a Limb Productions www.onalimbproductions.com If this podcast adds value to you, your team, or your organization, consider (1) subscribing (2) leaving a review and (3) sharing it with others 

In this episode of Louisiana NOW, Karrie Gaspard joins the show. Gaspard is a doctoral student at Tulane University, and is an expert in dissecting the complexities of Christian Nationalism and its encroachment into the fabric of Christianity. As a former educator and licensed social worker with a profound understanding of the intersections between religious and political spheres, Karrie offers invaluable insights into the origins and manifestations of Christian Nationalism. The conversation explores practical methods for identifying and challenging these narratives, assessing when patriotic sentiments may inadvertently align with nationalistic ideologies. Todd and Karrie delve into what it means to be both a Christian and a patriot without crossing into the realms of Christian Nationalism. They also give pastors a practical method for how to navigate these narratives. To read the Social Principles of The United Methodist Church, go here.  Karrie references Caleb Campbell's book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. 

In this episode of 'The Biggest Table,' host Andrew Camp is joined by Caleb Campbell, a pastor and the author of 'Disarming Leviathan,' to discuss Christian nationalism. Pastor Campbell shares his insights on American Christian nationalism, defining it as a political ideology, a tribal identity, and a spiritual idolatry. He recounts the challenges he faced leading his church through the polarization of the 2016 and 2020 elections. Campbell describes his approach to addressing Christian nationalism, which involves engaging with compassion rather than combativeness, and emphasizes the importance of hospitality and heart-to-heart conversations. He offers practical advice for Christians on how to disciple and cultivate unity within their congregations amidst political and ideological divides.Pastor Caleb Campbell graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Masters of Arts in Ministry from Phoenix Seminary in 2015 and is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. He has served at Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ since 2006, serving as Lead Pastor since 2015. He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona and as the state-wide regional director of the Surge Network.  He is the founder and director of Disarming Leviathan Ministries (DisarmingLeviathan.com) which produces a podcast, explainer videos and training material to equip people to missionally engage American Christian nationalists. His book, Disarming Leviathan (InterVarsity Press) equips Christians to minister to their Christian Nationalist neighbors. It introduces the basics of Christian Nationalism, and explores the reasons so many people are attracted to it and provides a 'field guide' for responding to American Christian Nationalist talking points along with questions and responses that “humbly subvert” their claims, and cultivate deeper, heart-level conversations.This episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com.  Also, join me at Theology Beer Camp October 17-19 in Denver, CO. Theology Beer Camp is a unique three-day conference that brings together of theology nerds and craft beer for a blend of intellectual engagement, community building, and fun. And because I am one of the Godpods at the conference, you as a listener can receive $50 off your ticket by using the code BIGGESTTABLE4CAMP (all caps, no spaces). I hope to see you there.

Caleb Campbell is the author of 'Disarming Leviathan How to Love your Christian Nationalist Neighbor'. In this episode we discuss: The 3 characteristics of a Christian Nationalist Who were the Nationalists in the New Testament What is Leviathan (the serpent) figure in the Bible What is Government? The true meaning of hospitality And more! Find Caleb's latest stuff at: https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/ Partner Links Soundstripe Need Royalty Free Music, SFX and Video? You need Soundstripe! Follow this link to get the best song, SFX and video library for your own creative needs: https://soundstripe.com?fpr=christianpodcast Get 10% Discount when you enter promo code: ChristianPodcast Streamyard Want to create live streams like this? Check out StreamYard: ⁠https://streamyard.com/pal/d/5548161986330624 --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/xtianpodcast/support

Quién es el Leviatán en la Biblia? Qué relación tiene con los cristianos nacionalistas en USA y otro tipo de movimientos similares en el mundo? Desarrollamos la conversación que tuvimos con Caleb Campbell pastor y autor de 'Disarming Leviathan How to Love your Christian Nationalist Neighbor' PARTNER LINKS Soundstripe Eres creador de contenido y necesitas canciones libres de regalías? Tenemos la solución, Soundstripe te ofrece Efectos de Sonido, Canciones y Videos. Recibe un descuento en tu buscripción con este link: https://soundstripe.com?fpr=christianpodcast Obtén 10% de descuento con el Código de Promoción: ChristianPodcast Streamyard Quieres hacer un livestream como este? Checa StreamYard: ⁠https://streamyard.com/pal/d/5548161986330624

Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and serves as the regional director for the Surge Network. Today, we're talking to him about a passion of his that syncs with this season. Caleb has just released a book called Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, that addresses the whole issue of Christian nationalism. But listen! He does so from the perspective of a missionary and pastor. It is a compassionate look at part of our culture that needs the tender care of Jesus. I'll tell you now that parts of this conversation may rattle your worldview, but I'm asking you to listen all the way through and consider how God might have you rethink your response to those with whom you disagree in this election season. 

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/5I3m2AAHjAY Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States. But is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn't end up in a fight? On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys engages in a lively dialogue with Caleb Campbell—a one-time skinhead who became a Christian and then a pastor. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been ministering in Phoenix—a hotbed of Christian nationalist fervor. Caleb shares candidly how Christian nationalism divided his church and left him so wounded, he had to take a months-long sabbatical. But he says God used this experience to soften his heart and motivate him to reach those ensnared by a powerful, growing movement. Drawing from his own experience leading congregants at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix—and his just-published book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor—Caleb provides a pastor's primer on Christian nationalism. How do you define this ideology? What are the concerns and potential harms, from both a pastoral and constitutional perspective? And what are some conversational approaches to disarm people who may be ensnared by it? During a contentious election year, this topic is a minefield—with critics waiting to pounce. This thoughtful and compassionate dialogue will help you navigate this minefield and love those with whom you disagree. Guests Caleb Campbell Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and a graduate of Phoenix Seminary. He serves as regional director for the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization. He is a co-founder of the J29 Coalition and the founder of Disarming Leviathan. His first book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, was published in 2024. He lives in Phoenix with his wife and children. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

In this episode, James speaks with Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. James and Caleb discuss the various challenges associated with Christian nationalism, some of the theological errors associated with the movement, and how to go about interacting with Christian nationalists to encourage a more faithful perspective in which pointing to and glorifying the Triune God takes first place. For more from James on Christian nationalism and other topics, visit usefultogod.com or pick up his book titled Serpents and Doves: Christians, Politics, and the Art of Bearing Witness at amazon.com. Be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian so you don't miss an episode! To purchase Disarming Leviathan, visit ivpress.com (use IVPPOD20 for a 20% discount). You can also check out disarmingleviathan.com. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Host Curtis Chang sits down with Pastor Caleb Campbell, author of the new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Caleb shares his powerful journey from disenfranchised young churchgoer to neo-nazi, and ultimately, his transformation into an evangelical pastor with a desire to reach adherents of Christian Nationalism. Together, Curtis and Caleb explore how our friends and neighbors become entangled in the worship of nationalism and political power and offer practical steps for inviting these individuals into meaningful relationships that foster hope and change.   Bring The After Party course to your church or small group!    Listen to Songs For the After Party, get sheet music, lyrics, and prayers for your church   Donate to Redeeming Babel HERE   Order Caleb E. Campbell's book: Disarming Leviathan Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor   REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:   Rich Mullins' Song: Sometimes By Step   Galatians 6:1-2 NIV   Tim Keller: Preaching to the Collective Heart (blog post)   Pete Scazzaro's book: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality

It's one thing to fight against a heresy, but what about the people caught in its grasp? Caleb Campbell's new book, “Disarming Leviathan,” argues Christian Nationalism is an idolatrous, anti-Christian movement, but that we ought to take a gentle, loving, and missional posture toward our friends and neighbors following it. Also this week, Ronald Reagan often said America was a shinning “city upon a hill.” Derwin Gray joins Skye and Kaitlyn to discuss the phrase, its original context in the Sermon on the Mount, and how Puritan colonists used it very differently than modern politicians. Plus, what's behind all of the hot A.I. images of Jesus?   Holy Post Plus Discussion of Project 2025 https://www.patreon.com/posts/107830107/edit   0:00 - Intro   1:18 - Show Starts   3:18 - Theme Song   3:40 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to www.hiyahealth.com/HOLYPOST to receive 50% off your first order   4:44  - Sponsor - Faithful Counseling - Get 10% off your first month at www.faithfulcounseling.com/HOLYPOST   5:52 - Responding to Feedback on Debate Coverage   12:26 - Shining City on a Hill   19:42 - Guiding People Away from Idolatry   30:36 - Perfect Love Casts Out Fear   34:41 - Hot A.I. Jesus   49:30 - Sponsor - Go to https://www.songfinch.com/HOLYPOST and start your song – after you purchase, you'll be prompted to add Spotify Streaming for your original song for FREE - a $50 value!    50:49 - Sponsor - Wheaton Graduate School - Learn in a rich, rigorous Christian environment - www.wheaton.edu/holypost   51:49 - Interview   53:57 - Why did Campbell write about Christian Nationalism?   1:15:15 - Practical Advice   1:23:53 - What About Flipping Tables?   1:33:14 - End Credits   Links Mentioned in the News Segment: Is America a City on a Hill or a Nation on the Precipice? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/02/opinion/american-exceptionalism-reagan-biden-trump.html   Hot AI Jesus is Huge on Facebook https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/06/hot-jesus-ai/678814/   Other resources:   Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor by Caleb Campbell: https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan   Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost   Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

In this episode, I talk with Caleb Campbell, pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, about his brand-new book ‘Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor', out now on IVP. In this book he argues that we should view Christian nationalism as a missionary opportunity, seeking to lovingly lead Christian nationalists back to Jesus. He discusses his experiences with TPUSA, why Christian nationalism has become so popular, the characteristics of the average Christian nationalists, and how to prepare our hearts to lovingly engage with them. As an added bonus, I ask him about the threat of progressive Christianity and conspiracy theories.   Media Referenced:Disarming Leviathan: https://a.co/d/6vgKv9UCaleb Campbell Twitter: @calebphxDisarming Leviathan Website: DisarmingLeviathan.comDisarming Leviathan Twitter: @DisarmingL   The Protestant Libertarian Podcast is a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute and a part of the Christians For Liberty Network. The Libertarian Christian Institute can be found at www.libertarianchristians.com. Questions, comments, suggestions? Please reach out to me at theprotestantlibertarian@gmail.com.  You can also follow the podcast on Twitter: @prolibertypod. For more about the show, you can go to theprotestantlibertarianpodcast.com. If you like the show and want to support it, you can! Go to libertarianchristians.com, where you can donate to LCI and buy The Protestant Libertarian Podcast Merch! Also, please consider giving me a star rating and leaving me a review, it really helps expand the shows profile! Thanks!

What is our responsibility as pastors and ministry leaders in understanding and addressing Christian nationalism? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Caleb Campbell. Caleb is the lead pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and a regional director for the Surge Network. His most recent book is entitled Disarming Leviathan. Together, Caleb and Jason look at what Christian nationalism is and what it is not. Caleb also shares some practical ways that your local church can engage in mission, honoring God, loving others, and addressing Christian nationalism.Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more, at http://PastorServe.org/networkSome key takeaways from this conversation:Caleb Campbell on the importance of patriotism as a mindset that not only values one's own country and culture but also respects and acknowledges the worth and equality of others, especially those from different ethnic backgrounds: "Patriotism has a positive view of the other. It recognizes that the ethnic other is also valuable and equal."Caleb Campbell on the significance of aligning one's actions and teachings with the principles and example set forth by Christ: "If someone is taking up the name of Christ, and then calling us to behave in ways that are not like Christ, then they are in error."Caleb Campbell on the importance of personal integrity, values, and moral conduct: "The teachings of our Messiah are that your character matters and the end is in God's hands."----------------Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. Love well, live well, & lead well Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | FacebookConnect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram...

Doug Stuart sits down with Caleb E. Campbell, pastor and author of the provocative book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Together, they delve into the heart of political tension within Christian congregations and explore the complex landscape of American Christian nationalism.Caleb shares his personal journey of witnessing unexpected political shifts in his community and religious events colored by political overtones, leading him to write his book. Through their conversation, they address the challenge of loving those with differing political and religious beliefs, recognizing Christian nationalism as a form of spiritual idolatry and toxic tribalism that offers a sense of safety, belonging, and purpose.The episode explores the nuances of identifying Christian nationalists, the anxiety driving their beliefs, and the problematic merging of American civil religion with Christianity—a process known as syncretism. Caleb stresses the fundamental flaw of labeling any state as "Christian," revealing the categorical error and missiological consequences of such a designation.Listeners will learn about Caleb's practical strategies for engaging in constructive dialogues, as he shares a field guide from his book designed to facilitate heart-to-heart conversations on contentious topics, such as the notion of America being a Christian nation and the impact of immigration. He emphasizes the importance of not merely winning arguments but fostering deeper understanding and connection.Through thought-provoking examples, including heartfelt interactions with family members holding differing views, Caleb advocates for hospitality and curiosity as tools to bridge divides. The episode underscores the significance of bearing one another's burdens and seeking restoration despite differing opinions.Additional Resources:Buy the book on AmazonAudio Production by Podsworth Media - https://podsworth.com ★ Support this podcast ★

Send us a Text Message.In this conversation, Caleb Campbell discusses his book 'Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor' and the rise of Christian nationalism in America. He shares his personal experiences with Christian nationalism within his congregation and the broader Christian community. Campbell explains the metaphor of Leviathan and how it represents the chaotic and evil forces that work against the ordered ways of God. He also explores the reasons why people are drawn to Christian nationalism, including the fear of ethnic erasure and the desire for power and protection. Campbell highlights the role of pastors and politicians in perpetuating Christian nationalism and the need for deep biblical literacy and critical thinking. In this conversation, Caleb E. Campbell discusses his approach to engaging with Christian nationalism and offers practical techniques for having conversations with Christian nationalists. He emphasizes the importance of a pastoral approach, focusing on the heart rather than the head. Campbell suggests inviting Christian nationalists into a safe and hospitable environment, engaging in humble subversion, and asking questions that challenge the tension between their beliefs and the teachings of Jesus. He also highlights the need for humility and open-mindedness in these conversations, recognizing that both sides have something to learn from each other. Campbell's prayer for the upcoming election season is for the church to receive the unveiling of what's really going on and to work towards a fresh expression of the church that transcends Americanness.Buy the book: https://a.co/d/00jrMgz2Guest Bio:Pastor Campbell graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Masters of Arts in Ministry from Phoenix Seminary in 2015 and is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary.He has served at Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ since 2006, serving as Lead Pastor since 2015.He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona and as the state-wide regional director of the Surge Network. He has spoken at events hosted by Acts 29, African American Christian Clergy Coalition, the Surge Network, Grand Canyon University, Converge Arizona, Young Life and Phoenix SeminarySupport the Show.To learn more about the show, contact our hosts, or recommend future guests, click on the links below: Website: https://www.faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/ Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Political Host: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Twitter: @FaithfulPolitik Instagram: faithful_politics Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast LinkedIn: faithfulpolitics Subscribe to our Substack: https://faithfulpolitics.substack.com/

On July 2, 2024, Caleb Campbell's new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Caleb for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies. In this episode, I do say I want to smash Christian nationalists, but I hope it is clear that I am not serious, but instead I agree with Caleb's approach. There is often a difference between what we might feel like doing and we know we should do, and Caleb points us to our better angels. The opening music is something I lovingly call the Christian Nationalist Dance and the closer is Lo-Fi Hymnal's rendition of Were You There.  

Do you feel like you're stuck on the hamster wheel of hustle culture, unable to find inner rest as a high achiever or hard-working mom? Today's special guest has the insights you need to find rest, balance, and success without burning out. Tune in to this episode of The Wellness Revolution to hear from Caleb Campbell. Once known as “America's Athlete”, Caleb is a West Point graduate and former Army officer who became the second player in the history of West Point to ever be selected in the NFL draft and the first player, under a new policy implemented by the Department of Defense (DOD), to be given permission to play and serve simultaneously. Caleb's dream came to a halt when the DOD rescinded that policy hours before signing his first NFL contract – launching him into his own internal war that would almost cost him his life. While serving his country, Caleb kept his NFL dream alive and eventually found himself playing in the NFL – proving how facing our fears, committing to mental and emotional health and staying authentic will make us stronger — even in our weakest moments. Join us for a deep discussion about what it looks like to find inner rest, expand your capacity for life, and overcome hustle culture and still be successful. “It's like a dance that never ends and it's a dance that we never necessarily master. It's not about mastering it, it's about learning how to respond to the moments when you are dancing out of sync with more compassion, more gentleness, with more love, so that you can pull yourself back into the divine dance that's happening all around us.” – Caleb Campbell As Caleb says, doing more isn't always the answer. Listen in to learn more! Key Highlights: How to shift from survival mode to fully participating in life The critical difference between healthy and unhealthy self-criticism What it looks like to find inner rest as a high achiever The key to overcoming hustle culture and still find success What to do when you hit your goals and you still don't feel it's enough How to expand your capacity for life without burning out What it means to grow your business and reach your goals from a place of rest The moment I realized I needed a divorce Episode Resources: Join Crush Life Boot Camp: https://products.ambershaw.com/crushlife Get 15% off Your Infrared Sauna Blanket at HigherDose.com with code Amber15 Anchored by Deborah Dana Connect with Caleb Campbell: Visit his website: calebcampbell.me Connect on LinkedIn: /in/iamcalebcampbell Follow on Twitter: @caleb_campbell Follow on Instagram: @caleb_campbell Connect with Amber: Instagram: @msambershaw TikTok: @msambershaw Website: ambershaw.com  

Caleb Campbell, pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his forthcoming book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. He also discusses Turning Point USA, syncretism, and missionary strategies. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, and politics. And order a copy of Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism by Brian Kaylor and Beau Underwood. If you buy it directly from Chalice Press, they are offering 33% off the cover price when you use the promo code "BApodcast."

Recognizing our shared humanity, approaching Christian nationalists in love, ethnic erasure, navigating fear, violence, and the political and religious divide, personal transformation and hospitality, finding heaven's solution to the immigration problem, shifting towards unity and compassion, creating language to communicate better alternatives, navigating potentially caustic interactions with leaders in the evangelical world, the influence of money and power in American Christian nationalism, the church growth model of American Christian nationalism, the exhaustion of maintaining a divisive posture, and seeing the manifold wisdom of God in all people, in this conversation Caleb Campbell shares with Dubb Alexander and Jason about his forthcoming book, Disarming Leviathan. For more on Caleb Campbell Substack: www.rcnc.substack.com Website: www.disarmingleviathan.com Please rate, review, share, and subscribe! Podcast intro and outro music by Wilde Assembly --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rethinking-god/support