The Infrastructure Show - Podcasts

Public-private partnerships (P3s) can be important strategies for financing transportation and other large infrastructure projects. Advancing public infrastructure projects with P3s requires careful analysis of the associated costs and the sharing of risks and rewards. To learn about trends in P3 financing, we speak with Professor Jonathan Gifford of the Schlar School of Policy and Government at George Mason University and Director of the Center for Transportation Public-Private Partnership Policy. Jonathan earned his BS in civil engineering from Carnegie Mellon University and an MS and PhD in civil engineering (transportation) at the University of California, Berkeley.

The Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) is the largest public power company in the United States. It also controls flooding, assures navigability and recreation, and protects the environment across seven states on the Tennessee River System. Established in 1933 to combat the depression, TVA is in its ninth decade as a self-sustaining entity. To understand the TVA as an enduring infrastructure project, we talk with Pat Ezzell, senior program manager and resident historian for TVA. Pat has authored a number of articles and two books on TVA history. She also hosts a social media and video series highlighting the TVA region.

Ships hit bridges much more often than people realize, and while most of the outcomes are minor, such events can present big risks to bridge users, ship operators, and infrastructure. Bridge design standards that address such risks are issued and updated periodically by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, but they do not mandate adding protection to existing bridges. Yet the size of ocean-going cargo has grown substantially in the past 30 years, amplifying the risks for bridges over ocean-connected waterways. To understand just how safe our major U.S. bridges are today, we talk with Mike Winters, P.E., who is Senior Structural Engineer with Moffatt & Nichol, a U.S.-based global infrastructure advisor. Mike is the principal U.S. representative to an international committee established by the Permanent International Association of Navigation Congresses to develop guidelines associated with ship collisions with bridges and other fixed structures.

Transformers step-down voltage from high levels most efficient for long distance transmission to lower levels for safe distribution to homes and businesses. Having enough transformers for replacement and to support expansion of the electrical grid is essential for ensuring reliability of the power system, but currently there is a shortage of transformers. A study by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), a U.S. Department of Energy lab, assessed the factors affecting demand for distribution transformers. To tell us about the findings of this analysis is one of the authors, Killian McKenna, Group Manager of Electrical Engineering for NREL. Killian earned a PhD in Electrical Engineering from University College Dublin.

The Chicago Transit Authority's $2.1 billion Red and Purple Line Modernization Project (RPM) is rebuilding a 5.6-mile elevated rail rapid transit structure and four stations, ensuring structural integrity, expanding capacity, and improving ride quality along a corridor on the North Side of Chicago. Included in this six-year project is removal of a failing embankment and returning land to the community. Here to talk with us about this project is Grace Ohs, Chicago Transit Authority RPM vice president and project lead. Grace earned her BS in Civil Engineering from the University of Illinois.

Earthquakes can generate massive tsunamis that pose severe risks to coastal communities. The 2004 earthquake off Sumatra spawned a tsunami that killed an estimates 228,000 people. Facing its own tsunami risk, the Shoalwater Bay Indian Tribe built an evacuation tower serving the coastal community of Tokeland, Washington. This tower can hold more than 400 people, and it is a model for vertical towers that might be constructed in other tsunami hazard zones. Here to describe this project is Maximilian Dixon, Earthquake Program Manager for the Washington Military Department's Emergency Management Division. Maximilian earned three degrees from the University of Washington: a BS in Environmental Policy and master's degrees in urban planning and infrastructure planning and management.

Digital twins are virtual representations of real systems used to test designs and operating policies in safe environments prior to implementation or offline. Applications include a variety of public and private facilities, notably airports and operating systems such as water supply and manufacturing processes. Much of the work is centered in architectural and engineering firms, with its foundation in Building Information Modeling (BIM). To understand digital twins and their infrastructure applications, we talk with Howard Shotz, a Vice President at Arora Engineers, where he leads the Global Smart Infrastructure practice. A graduate in architecture from Temple University, Howard is former Director of the Digital Twin and Digital Advisory Practice at Parsons Corporation.

Dam failures are frightening, and they can become disasters. Just how common – or uncommon – are the failures of dams in the U.S.? What are the contributing factors and are there ways we mitigate them? To learn the facts about dam failures, we talk with John Roche, who is Chief of the Dam Safety Permits Division of the Maryland Department of the Environment. John's work on dams includes emergency preparedness and response, public safety strategy, policy development, hydrology and hydraulics, and natural resources management. John earned his BS in Civil Engineering and MS in Geotechnical Engineering from University of New Hampshire. He's a registered Professional Engineer in multiple states and is currently Secretary and Board Member of the Association of State Dam Safety Officials.

The Eads Bridge, opened in 1874, is the oldest functioning bridge across the Mississippi River. This St. Louis crossing, named after its designer/builder, James Eads, pioneered the use of steel, then a new material; the construction of long-span arches without falsework; and deep underwater foundations. Eads himself led the creation of an elaborate international financing scheme to pay for the bridge and promising large profits for its investors. Today the Eads Bridge carries 4 lanes of road traffic and the Metrolink light rail line. Bringing us the history of this National Historic Landmark is John K. Brown, whose recent book, Spanning the Gilded Age; James Eads and the Great Steel Bridge, presents this story in detail, addressing financing of the economic expansion of the post-Civil War United States; the self-dealing and conflicting interests of the banking, railroad, construction, and materials industries of the time; as well the beginning of an integrated, standardized U.S. rail network. John is Professor Emeritus in the Department of Science, Technology, and Society at the University of Virginia. He earned three degrees in history: a BA from Emory and MA and PhD degrees from University of Virginia.

Intercity bus terminals are key links in the national bus network. We're losing some these terminals due to pressures for more lucrative land uses. The announced closing of Chicago's downtown Greyhound station will be impactful because about half a million passengers pass through it annually. How important are these terminals, not just locally, but in the national intercity bus network? Is there a need for public intervention to save them? To explore the contributing factors, the implications of closures, and potential interventions, we talk with Professor Joseph Schwieterman of DePaul University in Chicago. Joe is Founding Director of DePaul's Chaddick Institute for Metropolitan Development, and the foremost scholar on intercity bus transportation in the U.S. He has a BS degree from Purdue, an MS in Transportation from Northwestern, and a Ph.D. in public policy from the University of Chicago.

Scientific research needs supporting infrastructure – some small, some big, but rarely simple. The Deep Underground Neutrino Experiment – DUNE – will study the neutrino, one of the smallest atomic particles that is a fundamental building block of the universe. DUNE will send neutrinos generated at the Long Baseline Neutrino Facility near Chicago 800 miles though the earth to a massive detector in South Dakota, 1500 meters underground, that will collect data for scientists around the world. To explain the experiment itself, the infrastructure that will make it possible, and how that infrastructure is being built, we're talking with Ron Ray, Particle Physicist at Fermilab and Deputy Project Director of the LBNF/DUNE project team, to join us. Ron earned his Ph.D. in particle physics from the University of California-Irvine and worked as a scientific researcher at Northwestern University.

Bridge inspectors like to get up close and personal to detect small defects that could grow into disasters. The configuration of bridges – their size, height, and locations – can make the job difficult and dangerous. But rapid advances in aerial drones are making it possible to inspect difficult-to-access areas of bridges quickly and safely, reducing inspection costs and supporting better bridge maintenance. To update us on recent applications of drones for bridge inspection, we're talking with Barritt Lovelace, who is Director of Unmanned Aerial Systems, Artificial Intelligence and Reality Modeling at Collins Engineers in St. Paul, Minnesota.

GPS, the Global Positioning System, is now half a century old. This extraordinary technological advance routinely guides planes, ships, trains, automobiles, bikers and pedestrians with high precision. A Defense Department technology, GPS became widely available to the public in 1990. It has displaced and replaced some older navigation systems and brought revolutionary change to location and timing tasks. To review some of the benefits GPS has brought, we talk with Michael Gallaher, of RTI International, who is co-author of a study of the benefits of GPS for the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

Almost every major system we rely on seems to be vulnerable to cyberattacks from scammers, criminals, and nation states threatening our national security. Reports of cyberattacks disrupting and even destroying critical infrastructure systems are increasingly common. To understand the cyber risks that threaten our essential service systems and how we can defend against them, we talk with Gregory Falco, Assistant Professor in the Sibley School of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Cornell University and Director of the Aerospace ADVERSARY Laboratory, which designs and develops next-generation autonomous, secure and resilient space infrastructure.

Energy from wind and solar sources is available when nature permits, but the demand for energy is based on the cyclical needs of people and their activities. To make renewable energy work, and to manage the normal daily mismatches between supply and demand, we need to shift energy in time from when it is available to when it is needed. That calls for grid-scale storage. To explain large-scale energy storage strategies, we talk with Nate Blair, group manager of distributed systems and storage analysis at the USDOE National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colorado.

In very cold places, like Alaska, Northern parts of Canada and Europe, building infrastructure means building on permafrost, perennially frozen ground. Permafrost provides reliable foundations for buildings and highways as long as it remains frozen. But warming temperatures driven by climate change may threaten existing and new infrastructure founded on permafrost. To help us understand the problems and potential solutions in this dynamic risk environment, we talk with Billy Connor, Director of the Arctic Infrastructure Development Center at the University of Alaska.

Spectacular bridges can be focal points of their host cities, reminding us that unique infrastructure can also be unique art. Lighting those bridges can carry their aesthetic value into the night. In 2013, the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge was illuminated with a 25,000-LED dynamic display called The Bay Lights, and its public appeal kept it lighted until 2023. In this podcast we talk with Ben Davis, Founder of Illuminate, which developed the Bay Lights plan, about the original concept, some of the challenges of lighting massive structures, and plans for its future.

The Port of Duluth-Superior, located at the western end of Lake Superior, is a national and international cargo hub, serving the Great Lakes and, through the St. Lawrence Seaway, the rest of the world. It supports flows of bulk cargoes such as grain, iron ore and coal, and project cargo – large construction equipment. To learn about its unique role in logistics and the challenges it faces when winter sets in, we talk with Deb DeLuca, Executive Director of the Duluth Seaway Port Authority.

Some U.S. Cities are taking back streets from exclusive use by motor vehicles to protect and prioritize vulnerable road users – pedestrians and bicyclists – and to enhance neighborhood livability. This process is advanced under the banner of Complete Streets, streets designed and operated for all users. Atlanta, Georgia's variation is called Tactical Urbanism, a low-cost, quick-build approach designed to change the overall use and feel of streets and public spaces. To learn how Atlanta uses tactical urbanism, we talk with Betty Smoot-Madison, Deputy Commissioner of Planning for the Atlanta Department of Transportation.

PFAS, per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, the forever chemicals, are commonly used as protective coatings because they resist heat, stains and water. Because PFAS do not normally degrade in the environment, when products containing them are discarded, they become nearly ubiquitous pollutants in our water supply. Can they be removed? If so, how can we do it and what will it cost? To get answers to these questions, we talk with Mohamed Ateia Ibrahim, Environmental Engineer and Group Leader at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Center for Environmental Solutions and Emergency Response.

On June 11, 2023, a gasoline truck caught fire under I-95 in Philadelphia, essentially melting a major section of the primary roadway through the center of the Northeast Corridor. Facing what looked like a months-long reconstruction process, the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation assembled a quick action team to implement an extraordinary repair effort, built on interagency cooperation and a unique recycled material, restoring I-95 to full use in only 12 days. Telling us about this quick rebuild is Lou Belmonte, District Executive for the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation.

Fluctuations in water levels on our inland waterways system can affect the movement of bulk freight, particularly agricultural products. Low waters, as occurred in the fall of 2022 on the lower Mississippi River, limited the flow of freight and increased shipper costs. To learn more about the causes, consequences, and responses to such disruptions, we're talking with Mike Steenhoek, Executive Director of the Soy Transportation Coalition. Mike is a member of the Department of Commerce Advisory Committee on Supply Chain Competitiveness, the Transportation Research Board Committee on Inland Water Transportation, and the Iowa Department of Transportation Freight Advisory Council.

The 150-year-old Baltimore and Potomac Tunnel, Amtrak's oldest, carries traffic for Amtrak, the Maryland Area Rail Commuter (MARC) Service, as well as Norfolk Southern freight operations. This tunnel is a major bottleneck for Northeast corridor rail traffic, and Amtrak is rebuilding it and adding a new, passenger-only tunnel named after abolitionist Frederick Douglass. In this podcast we learn about this large program from Mark Milton, Senior Director, Capital Delivery for Amtrak, who is managing final design and construction for the overall program. Mark's a civil engineer with many years of experience in design. [Correction to interview conversation: all railroad grades on this project are less than 2.0%]

US railroads are highly efficient at moving freight. Indeed, our freight rail system is the envy of the world, but sometimes accidents occur. When train derailments occur, the outcome is usually minor, but occasionally more serious problems arise. To understand the causes and prevention of train derailments, we're talking with Dr. Allan Zarembski, Professor of Practice and Director of the Railroad Engineering and Safety Program at the University of Delaware. He's an expert on railroad track engineering, safety, and derailment analysis.

Wood has been perhaps the most common material for buildings for millennia, but innovations in its application are bringing new opportunities and advantages for working with this sustainable material. Structural applications of mass timber are proliferating in types and scales. Factory assembly of wood components can produce stronger elements in designed architectural shapes. To find out more about the characteristics and benefits of new uses of wood for infrastructure, we talk with Eric Long, Structural Engineering Partner at Skidmore, Owings & Merrill in San Francisco, who leads the firm's West Coast Structural Engineering practice.

Changing climate brings new risks to infrastructure, and commonly these risks are shared with insurance companies. To control their risks, insurers need to understand and anticipate both the sources and characteristics of natural threats, and to collaborate with their clients – infrastructure owners and operators – to mitigate the risks of natural hazards. To open a window on the role of insurers in addressing climate risk, we talk with Martin Lockman, a research lawyer working at Columbia University's Sabin Center for Climate Change Law. Martin works at the intersection of climate-related threats to infrastructure, the insurance industry, and risk management.

COVID-19 has robbed public transit of riders as many have changed workplaces, shifted schedules, and chosen new ways to travel to avoid crowds. Transit operators around the world are working to attract commuters back, adjusting services and fares to accommodate changing markets, secure reliable revenue sources, and redefine their roles in the city. To tell us more about both the challenges and responses of a major commuter rail operator, we've invited James Derwinski to talk with us. Jim is CEO and Executive Director of Metra, the commuter rail system serving the Chicago Metropolitan area, the fourth largest in the US in terms of trips carried, and the largest in terms of route miles.

Mobility is essential for the well-being of people wherever they live. The automobile is king of the mobility market across the US, but public transit supports mobility for those who cannot, or chose not to, travel by car. The need for alternatives to automobility in smaller communities and rural areas is substantial but not especially visible. To understand the role and options for transit in such places, we talk with Scott Brogen, who is Executive Director of the Community Transportation Association of America.

A hotter climate brings new challenges to the built infrastructure, stressing service systems – power generation and distribution and transportation systems – as well as structures. Are we prepared for these problems? How can infrastructure adapt to higher temperatures? To understand both the problems and options, we talk with Mikhail Chester, Associate Professor in the School of Sustainable Engineering and the Built Environment at the Fulton School of Engineering, and Director of the Metis Center for Infrastructure and Sustainable Engineering, at Arizona State University.

Superfund sites are seriously polluted locations that are subject to remediation by the Environmental Protection Agency under the 1980 Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation and Liability Act (CERCLA). These clean-up processes can be large, complex, and costly. To understand what it takes to restore a particularly challenging location, the 132-acre Eagle Zinc Superfund site in Hillsboro, Illinois, we talk with the EPA's Margaret Gielniewski, who is Remedial Project Manager.

This podcast is a timely history lesson about the electrification of rural America and the Depression-era program that made it happen. The Rural Electrification Act of 1936 – the REA – provided federal loans to install electrical distribution systems to serve rural areas. The REA may offer lessons as we invest to extend high speed broadband service across the country. To learn about the REA and its impacts, we're talking with Price Fishback, APS Professor of Economics at the Eller College of Management of the University of Arizona, an expert on the political economy of Roosevelt's New Deal during the 1930s.

Marine ports are gateways to world trade, and their efficient functioning is a pillar of our economy. East and Gulf Coast ports have grown more important in recent years because of the expanded Panama Canal locks opened in 2016 and continuing congestion in West Coast ports and overland transportation. The Port of Virginia has been making important infrastructure investments to secure its position in this competition for world trade. To learn how it became the second busiest container port on the East Coast, in this podcast we talk with Stephen Edwards, CEO and Executive Director of the Virginia Port Authority (VPA).

Railroads and motor vehicles can come into conflict at level, or at-grade crossings. Such conflicts almost always lead to deadly consequences. In this podcast we consider the trend in rail grade crossing crashes, and the differences that crossing control devices, education, and other policies might make toward mitigating this risk. To understand how we can make these intersections safer, we talk with Professor Ian Savage of Northwestern University, a transport economist who studies the economics of transportation safety, including rail safety.

Replacing an active railroad bridge while limiting disruptions to both rail and river traffic presents significant challenges in design and construction staging. The 1889 Merchants Bridge at St. Louis – the oldest remaining rail bridge across the Mississippi River – needed to be upgraded to modern standards. The work involved removal and replacement of three truss spans, accomplished in separate time windows, and demanding the precise coordination of multiple contractors, as well as rail and waterways operations. In this podcast we talk with Dan Sieve, Senior Project Manager for Walsh Construction, the company that led the effort, to learn how the work was done.

Because temperatures below the surface of the earth are relatively constant year around, the earth can be used as a heat sink or source to cool or heat buildings, offering an energy source that is not only carbon-free, but is also constant. How does this work? Where and how can we use this seemingly free energy source? To answer these questions, we talk with Alessandro Rotta Loria, Assistant Professor of Civil & Environmental Engineering at Northwestern University, who studies the connections between geomechanics, energy, and environmental sustainability.

Over 1200 tornadoes strike the U.S. each year, bringing destruction, injuries, and deaths to communities. Until recently there were no structural design standards specifically aimed at providing some tornado protection for buildings. In this podcast we talk with Dr. Marc Levitan, Lead Research Engineer at the National Institute of Standards and Technology's National Windstorm Impact Reduction Program, to learn about tornadoes, the research he has done to lead the development of ASCE wind loading standards for designing structures to resist them, and the process for moving research into enhanced building codes.

Is it more costly to build urban rail infrastructure in America? Does that affect the quality of the products? If so, can we do anything to control costs and get more value for our money? The Eno Center for Transportation, an independent think tank, conducted an extensive study to answer these questions. To tell us what they learned, Paul Lewis, Eno Vice President for Policy and Finance and a co-author of the study, joins us in conversation.

The Everglades is a huge wetland – an area permanently covered with water – that includes a variety of unique ecosystems delivering essential services to both natural and human development systems, including water storage, treatment, flood control, and providing habits for many creatures and plants. Occupying much of Florida south of Orlando, the Everglades has felt the effects of human activities for hundreds of years. The Comprehensive Everglades Restoration Plan (CERP) is a congressionally mandated, 35-year federal/state collaboration that is restoring, preserving, and protecting the Everglades. To learn more about the Everglades and CERP we invited Eva Velez, Chief of the Ecosystems Branch of the Jacksonville District of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, to talk with us.

We rely on state and local highway agencies to assure the safety and functionality of the more that 618,000 bridges the American public traverses on a daily basis. The sheer numbers, our aging bridge population, and limits to funding make this a large and demanding responsibility. How do these agencies assess the condition of our bridges and set priorities for repair and replacement? To learn how one state department of transportation works to assure that its bridges are in a state of good repair, we talk with Todd Springer, Assistant State Structure and Bridge Engineer for Design and Project Delivery at the Virginia Department of Transportation.

Competition for urban curb space can be fierce on a day to day basis, and a policy and technical challenge for longer term planning. Delivery companies and their customers, people trying to park their cars, pedestrians, and bike riders are all in the mix. How common is this competition? What are the options for allocating scarce curb space so all of the important needs are met? To learn about this problem and possible solutions, we talk with Anne Goodchild, Professor of Civil & Environmental Engineering and Director of the Supply Chain Transportation & Logistics Center at the University of Washington.

Groundwater is the source of about 40 percent of our potable water, and thus it is important for many households, farms, manufacturing, and other processes. In some places groundwater is contaminated, or at risk of contamination. In many placed it is being used at rates faster than it is being recharged. How do we manage groundwater? What are the risks that it faces, and what can we do about them? In this podcast we talk with Dr. Bill Alley, Director of Science and Technology, for the National Ground Water Association.

Rail terminals are the beginning and end points of the rail freight journey, and they serve a key sorting function for merchandise trains, those carrying mixed freight. Rail terminals are large, complex, and varied in their characteristics, and their functioning is critical to the success and efficiency of rail freight and the broader U.S. supply chain logistics system. To learn about railroad terminal operations and design, we talk with an expert on the subject, Rich Gray, who served as General Director of Asset Planning before retiring from the Union Pacific Railroad.

History can be a great teacher, particularly so when it comes to infrastructure achievements. During the Bicentennial period of the construction of the Erie Canal, it is appropriate and informative to look back at this groundbreaking infrastructure project. Built between 1817 and 1825, the Erie Canal opened the Midwest to trade and settlement, and by cutting freight rates by 75% overnight, it boosted the commercial power of New York City. It offers lessons about the link between accessibility and economic development, the merits of strategic public investment, as well as the conflicts that can occur in public finance decisions. To remind us of this history, we're joined by Brad Utter, Senior Historian and Curator at the New York State Museum and author of the 2020 book, Enterprising Waters – the History and Art of New York's Erie Canal.

Beyond the capability to move products, supply chains need storage space for transferring and holding goods en route and while they await shipment to customers. Sufficiency – and efficiency – of logistics real estate, warehouses and distribution centers, are essential attributes of well-run supply chains. How does the logistics real estate sector work? What factors drive the market and assure that customer demands are met? To learn how the space needs of the logistics industry are met, we talk with Christopher Caton, Global Head of Strategy and Analytics with Prologis, which builds and invests in logistics space around the world.

It's the functionality of infrastructure that brings value, and when natural hazards disrupt that functionality, the costs can be high. This is a growing problem for transportation networks, which are being assaulted by wildfires, landslides, and floods with increasing frequency and severity. What does it take to keep a road network flowing when the flood waters rise? To learn about this critical role for the economy and society, we talk with Austin Yates, engineer with the Iowa Department of Transportation, which has had more than its share of flood disruptions in recent years.

Big infrastructure projects need big money, and larger projects rely on some kind of borrowing – using other people's money for a period of time. To learn how infrastructure projects are financed through borrowing, we talk with Scott Trommer, Senior Director, Advisory Services US at WSP USA, a professional services firm specializing in, among other things, infrastructure and transportation.

Electric power operates our homes and businesses, and it promises to be the future of mobility, as well. There is a constant need to match temporal and spatial variations in supply and demand for electricity across regions of the country. This need grows as we increase the share of electricity coming from renewable sources, particularly wind and solar, which are time-dependent. We rely on the electric grid to move electric power from sources to need centers. To learn how the grid works, and how it might be improved, we talk with James McCalley, who is London Professor in Electrical Engineering at Iowa State University.

The health risks posed by lead water service lines are well known. Just how common is this invisible hazard in our potable water? What can we do to address it? To explore the problem, responses to it, and the costs, we talk with Steve Via, Director of Federal Relations for the American Water Works Association.

Building or replacing highway bridges quickly can save traffic delays by cutting on-site construction time. What are the design and construction strategies that make this possible? To answer this question we talk about Accelerated Bridge Construction (ABC) with Professor Atorod Azizinamini, who leads Florida International University's USDOT-funded Accelerated Bridge Construction University Transportation Center.

On January 1, 2021, a new life began for the century-old James A. Farley Post Office in Manhattan when it became the home of the Daniel Patrick Moynihan Train Hall serving Amtrak and Long Island Railroad passengers. Preserving the Beaux-Arts exterior of the McKim, Mead & White post office, architects created a 21st century interior space bridging New York's design history and its future. To learn about the significance and the unique challenges of this complex, adaptive reuse project, we talk with Marla Gayle, Managing Director, Global Transportation Practice and Global Adaptive Reuse Practice with Skidmore Owings and Merrill's New York Office.

A national perspective on the condition and performance of our infrastructure is important for informing the dialog about investing in this system that is so important for supporting our society and economy. Every four years the American Society of Civil Engineers works with its volunteer members to produce a comprehensive report card on the state of the U.S. infrastructure. To give us our 2021 infrastructure grade, we're talking with Emily Feenstra, ASCE's Managing Director – Government Relations and Infrastructure Initiatives.