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This week we deliberately kept standing on rakes and getting repeatedly thwacked in the face in order to lure out the king of creative nonsense, Mr Mark Denton esq. The creative hero that advertising needs, but doesn't entirely deserve, Mark Denton is the once-in-many-lifetimes imagination behind more than 500 commercials – scooping up so many awards he could spend all day throwing them at passing canoeists and still have armfuls to spare. With even the biggest creative industry on the planet unable to entirely hold Mark's interest, he's flitted magnificently between the worlds of art, fashion and furniture design – Dentonising each field to glorious effect. Currently chief of COY! Communications, Mark is surgically re-implanting advertising's forgotten sense of fun, and putting the ‘big idea' back on the table. Teetering gloriously at the edge of what he calls ‘old geezership', Mark has a lifetime of stories, adventures and quadruple-strength whimsy to impart – covering everything from stumbling into advertising, why he's embracing new creative spaces and his famous experiment as a 65-year-old intern. ///// Visit Mark Denton's Website Dig through Dave Dye's Mark Denton Archive Follow Mark on Instagram Connect with Mark on LinkedIn Mark's first ever TV ad for Cadbury's Cream Eggs Mark's scamp for Samsung car batteries A showcase of Mark's work in his interview with the peerless Dave Dye A tribute to his dedication, and former boss Norman Icke (creator of the Milk Tray man), Cadbury's Fruit and Nut Case advert: Timestamps (03:55) - Mark Meets Duncan (07:00) - Family Background and Career Choices (09:15) - First Job and Sneaking in Creative Ideas (12:25) - The Cadbury's Cream Eggs Breakthrough (18:10) - Adapting to Different Agency Styles (23:30) - Interning at St. Luke's (30:00) - The Role of Process in Agencies (32:00) - The Decline of Quirkiness in Advertising (35:00) - The Need for Entertainment in Ads (37:00) - The Creative Fulfilment in the Ads Your Working On (39:00) - Encouraging Young Creatives (40:30) - Visual Posters Make Great Ads (43:00) - Encouraging Enthusiasm in Advertising (46:00) - Allowing Creatives to be Creative (49:00) - Conclusion and Reflection on Change (51:00) - Getting his head round TikTok (57:10) - Listener questions (01:01:25) - 4 pertinent posers Mark's book recommendations are: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie Unleash the Power of Puerility by Mark Denton /////
Join us in this exciting episode of the Speaking Business podcast as we dive deep into the world of leadership, resilience, and high-performance teamwork with multi-award-winning speaker Mark Denton. Mark shares his incredible journey from leading a team to victory in the world's most challenging yacht race to becoming a sought-after keynote speaker. Discover how Mark turned a standing ovation at a corporate conference into a thriving speaking career, captivating audiences across diverse sectors. Learn about the techniques he uses to make his speeches unforgettable, including the use of multimedia, gripping storytelling, and powerful music scores. Mark also opens up about the challenges he has faced in the speaking industry and how he stays adaptable in a constantly evolving market. He shares valuable strategies for securing consistent bookings and the importance of treating speaking as a business. Whether you're an aspiring speaker or an established professional looking to grow your business, Mark's insights and advice will inspire and equip you to navigate your own path to success. Don't miss this episode packed with practical tips, real-life examples, and the wisdom of an experienced speaker who has mastered the art of engaging and moving audiences. Tune in now and embark on a journey of learning and inspiration with Mark Denton
Welcome back to the world's No.1 Marketing podcast!The concluding chat with the Legend that is Mark Denton is here. Links from todays episode: Marks Denton: https://www.coy-com.com/ Final Call Deadline is Friday 26 April: https://thecreativefloor.com/awards/
Welcome back to the world's No.1 Marketing podcast!Put the kettle on and sit back. The chat with the Legend that is Mark Denton continues. This Friday 12 April is The Creative Floor Awards 2024 FINAL DEADLINE: https://thecreativefloor.com/awards/Links to shout outs: https://boomcgi.com/ https://thecreativefloor.com/awards/shop/
We need a hero. We need someone Pleasingly Reserved and Artfully Modest. Mark Denton is a creative veteran of some 40 years. He's directed over 500 commercials. He's one of the most awarded creatives in the world Yet he still regards himself as the new boy. An hour of entertainment, delivered in Mark's inimitable style: Ageism, the best old TV adverts, Stingo, a tribute to Brian Griffin, AI Photography, Magic Markers, how creative used to be done, making your own clothes, making the creative genesis, the SKIP button, the advertising industry's biggest star, the ultimate umbrella campaign and Cobra Kai & Eagle Fang. Living at St Luke's, Mark is available for your next campaign. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Visuals: https://getbehindthebillboard.com/episode-69-paul-brazierEpisode #69 features Paul Brazier and his brilliant billboards. The Economist, Guinness, Think!, Aer Lingus, Wrangler, Museum of Childhood, Walkers, Cancer Research…every one of them a banger. Paul has created and presided over some of the greatest work of the past 30 years. And he's spent the best part of these years at @amvbbdo, as Creative Director, Executive Creative Director, CCO and Chairman. During this time, Paul and his partners (@psouter and @Nick Worthington) and his creative department have amassed a mountain of awards, including an incredible 239 entries into D&AD, which must have gone some way to him becoming D&AD President in 2010. We hear Paul's side of the ‘Industrial Secrets for Sale' billboard for The Economist. It's a real lesson in craft, never giving up, ending up with a jaw-dropping piece of work. Then there are the celebrity tales from the Aer Lingus campaign - Roy Keane and Vinnie Jones don't disappoint. The Think! campaign saw Paul & Nick go on a police patrol to witness the harsh reality of how drink driving ruins lives. We also heard about Paul's favourite posters - ‘It's Frothy man' and the entire portfolio of Mark Denton @mdentonesq which Paul lovingly brought to life in his own homage. Thank you Paul for your generosity in telling these amazing stories.
Joe Giacomet mostly works in advertising. It's an area that has allowed him to do what he wants. And has given the spare cash to be able to focus on personal projects from time to time. Marcus describes Joe's style as photography on steroids. He says Joe is known for vibrant, quirky, comedic ideas. Joe has studies graphic design and worked with a lot of influential people and those have come together to get him where he is. His shots have a lot of humour in, but he says clients can sometimes reign this in. Joe says when he goes into a shoot he likes to remind himself that he is there to have fun. Joe studied graphic design initially and photography was a hobby. He then found he was enjoying the photography more than the graphic design. At university he studied photography, but also worked as a freelance graphic designer. He then moved to London, started assisting as a photographer and the graphic design work drifted away. Joe worked as an assistant for Mark Denton and he has been very influential in Joe's work. He assisted for Julia Fullerton-Batten and she really pushed him develop, especially around lighting. Joe says it was fascinating assisting as he learnt so much from seeing how other people work. Joe says what a lot of people don't realise is how planned everything is for a shoot. Every detail is planned out in advance. He tries to leave space for creativity, but the planning needs to be in place. Working in advertising can be very prescriptive.Joe did a personal project based on football cards with Mark Denton. This was a long running personal project making comedy football cards. This project brought Joe's work to Marcus's attention. They did the shoots for 6 days over a couple of years. The cards started as thirty portraits. They then invented the teams, got woven badges made, printed huge backdrops, and spent a long time on casting. They looked at over 5000 people to find the right people for the cards. Then post production was done over Covid. This was a huge amount of work that probably wouldn't have got done without Covid. All of this was simply for a personal project. The time spent on it was certainly not commercially viable. Joe thinks he landed work at the Qatar world cup due to this project. But he says don't always believe that personal projects will always turn into work. Before the football cards Joe did a parody of a Tretchikoff painting, Chinese girl . A friend of Joe's, Kate is Chinese and she needed a business card, so they decided to make a parody of this painting. This was just for fun, but ended up in the Royal academy, was on TV and Paloma Faith has a copy on her wall. What comes across from these projects is Joe's intense attention to detail. He says this is a great quality, but sometimes needs reigning in. If he does a job he always gives 110% he never gives half effort. Joe's style has allowed him to move into other genres, so his style comes across in whatever he does. Joe has a process for whatever he does and thinks he could apply this to projects outside photography. Joe says he came to London in his twenty knowing no one. So all his contacts he now has in the advertising business have come through building a network over time. He has also found that as he has been in the industry for a good number of years now, his contacts have been moving up the corporate ladder. So, the people who were very junior when he first met them have started to become much higher up in the business. That means now he is able to get higher level work with the contacts he has. He has been nurturing these contacts over time and without this nurturing over time he would not have these contacts. He did have a time a few years ago where he gave up photography for a month or so as he was making almost no money. He felt sometimes like he was banging his head against a wall trying to get work. But he then got a commission for 3M which took him forwards.
One of the most awarded creatives in the world, Mark Denton joins Paul Bainsfair to talk about his route into advertising, his extensive career, the decision to become an intern in his 60s and what has changed about the industry over the years.
In the first episode of Creativity Sucks!, Creative Review editor Eliza Williams is joined by three experts from advertising – Mark Denton, David Kolbusz and Melody Sylvester – to discuss the state of the industry today.
Whoever it's with, whenever I do these podcasts, some personal link seems to turn up.Something I'd forgotten or been unaware of - Paul Weiland was once my landlord, I judged the One Show with Gerry Graf 15 years earlier, David Holmes drew a poster for me 25 years earlier.This isn't like that, this time it really is personal (isn't that the Jaws 2 strap line?).Malcolm and I started out together; he'd shoot pictures for free, I'd write ads for free.The stuff we created helped us inch forward in our careers.When I finally got into my first good agency (SPDC&J), my new boss Mark Denton said 'it was all that extracurricular stuff that got you hired'.I hope you enjoy it.
Here's what it says about Mask Denton on his company's website https://www.coy-com.com Winner of enormous amount of advertising awards ............. TICK Director of over 500 commercials ............................................ TICKFormer partner/ECD of world famous ad agency .................. TICKSupplier of sell-out inspirational talks .................................... TICKOwner of much awarded Design company ............................. TICKFormer NW Kent Hurdles champion ...................................... TICKEx-President of The Advertising Creative Circle ................. TICKTheatrical producer ................................................................... TICKBook/Magazine publisher ......................................................... TICK47th most influential person in advertising ........................... TICKOwn teeth/hair ......................................................................... CROSS
Should Liverpool win the Carabao Cup this season I'm sure they'll be happy.But it'll be a bonus.Their goal is to win the Premier League.Or maybe the European Cup.Creatives used to view Creative Circle Awards in the same way; delighted to win one, but their eyes were fixed on D&AD.Or BTAA.Or Campaign Press.Or Campaign Posters.Or The One Show.Or, a bit later, Cannes.In fact, my first ever advertising award was a Creative Circle Gold for radio - great, but I'd happily have swapped it for an ‘in book' at D&AD.But, they did have one thing going for them - their annual.It wasn't like the other annuals.The idiosyncratic way that they chose juries meant they featured an equally idiosyncratic batch of ads.One year they decided a single person should judge a whole category. (The year I won my gold for radio, fortunately the judge was Derek Day, arguably the most astute judge of radio on the planet. Thanks Derek!)Another year they decided that all judges had to be under thirty.They managed to rid the juries of those pesky award winners and Creative Directors, but to be fair, it again guaranteed that annual had different work in it than those other annuals.So it was worth a look.By 2006, with entries down, they could no longer afford to print an annual.As a registered charity, they only exist is to shine a light on the best British advertising has to offer, without an annual that light is going to be significantly dimmed.So why would agencies, who have finite awards budgets, continue to enter?It was a difficult question.What to do?What to do?A bald man with a twiddly moustache walks into frame ‘Ere, I'll have a go…let me run it!'
Here's Mark Denton discussing his book The Power of Puerility with the Silence Media Book Club. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Mark Denton is the Guy Ritchie of advertising creatives. You can hear it in his voice and see it in his accolades – just google him. He's one of the few people who graduated from ad creative to ad director. He's also written a book about remaining childish and wears clothes with his name printed on them. If you're not convinced this episode is worth listening to you're as nonsensical as nonsense. Enjoy. Shout-out to Julian Hanford, the Annie Leibovitz of advertising, on the photo of Mark.
In this episode, I chat with Mark Denton about how Costa Rica has developed itself as a powerful brand. As a leader in eco-tourism, Costa Rica is virtually unmatched in the world and dominates amongst all of the countries in Central and South America. Mark currently lives in Costa Rica and has more than three decades of marketing, sales, and strategic planning experience throughout the region. You can connect with Mark on LinkedIn here. Check out Mark's book on The Efficiency Trap on Amazon. Connect with Adam: Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn
This is my full interview with Mark Denton, who shares his vast experience in doing business and living in Central America. Mark currently lives in Costa Rica and has more than three decades of marketing, sales, and strategic planning experience throughout the region. For the past ten years, he has worked as a commercial strategist and business consultant in over 25 countries, providing services to companies such as Coca-Cola. You can connect with Mark on LinkedIn here. Check out Mark's book on The Efficiency Trap on Amazon. Connect with Adam: Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn
Advertising expert & motivational speaker Paul Mellor took over the studios this week with co-host founder of Level UK Sam Cande. They delivered an exciting show all about the advertising world, troublemaking and disrupting the status quo. Joining them on the show was fitness & life coach Natalie Musaphia, author & advertising creative director Mark Denton, author & content marketer Dan Kelsall and the self-proclaimed Michael Bay of business, Cindy Gallop.
Advertising expert & motivational speaker Paul Mellor took over the studios this week with co-host founder of Level UK Sam Cande. They delivered an exciting show all about the advertising world, troublemaking and disrupting the status quo. Joining them on the show was fitness & life coach Natalie Musaphia, author & advertising creative director Mark Denton, author & content marketer Dan Kelsall and the self-proclaimed Michael Bay of business, Cindy Gallop.
Mark joined us in his finery of a Denton branded tracksuit, peaky blinder cap complete with bobble on top and of course trainers and sunnies. What more could we have expected from one of the most incredible London ad men over the last 40 years. Although don’t call him an ad man… he makes films…. “Please send your scripts to www.thomasthomasfilms.co.uk”.Please visit https://getbehindthebillboard.com/?p=340 for the images to follow along.Mark joined us with gifts [others take note, we like gifts], we talked briefly about his book the Power of Purelity. You can buy it here, and Mark will chuck in some free gifts… www.coy-com.com/shop Mark reckons there’s a revival going on in Outdoor, some great work sitting proudly from the rest… Mark credits Nils Leonards Uncommon for their work on Habito, Droga5 for Coal Drops Yard, and Atomic for their work on the Royal Opera House posters: Marks first billboard was for Milk Tray, something he concepted up with the late and great Norman Icke [who came up with the original idea for the milk tray man] while Mark was ‘just a visualiser’ at Leo Burnett. Within weeks Mark was hanging out in New York ready to shoot on top of the JCPenney building. Mark met his long term creative partners Chris Palmer on set for a TV shoot, a set he shouldn’t have been on! The shoot was for Cadbury’s creme egg, and he’d slipped one of his ideas in with the creative teams one. On a sound stage at Pinewood he bumped into Chris, and he got Mark into BBH within months. Mark recalls John Hegarty hating half of his book in the interview…. But Chris helped nudge John in the right direction. 4 1/2 years later… Mark and Chris left to setup Simons Palmer Denton Clemmow Johnson where they worked on Nike among others. We talked about all of the poster work they did…. Originally they were engaged only for Soccer… but soon worked on Rugby, basketball, running, Olympics and many many others. Of all of them, Mark picked out the Ian Wright football poster. ‘Behind every great goalkeeper there’s a ball from Ian Wright’. We talked about Advantage Sampras, Charles Barkley and the Marathon no U turns. With the latter 2 styled graphically on political propaganda posters. We moved on to Wrangler, and a lesson to all you creatives out there. If you believe in your concepts keep pushing as hard as you can. If you can invest in your idea and to help sell the concept to your client it might help get great work away. Then onto another important lesson. Paying your suppliers back for the proactive work you get them working on. Having Malcom shoot the test work, led to more work for the agency and therefore more for Malcom. Asda we spent a bit of time talking about a favourite execution for Free Range Eggs, featuring a model made chicken on a motorbike, escaping the chicken farm in the style of The Great Escape. The humour is there on all of the executions.Heineken too had that humour running through it.Top Tip: Don’t leave it on a Piece a paper. Mark gave us the example of his Samson Batteries, which he’d visualised up as a poster. He managed to turn that poster into 3 TV commercials!Favourite Billboard of all time. BEANS MEANS HEINZ. Bring back the slogan!
On my way to record this interview a weird thought popped into my head. Weird, because I’ve been reading books on designers for thirty odd years and I’d never spotted it. Also weird, because it’s the opposite of the received wisdom. The thought was this ‘Good designers can work in many styles, great designers have a distinctive style’. As Art Directors and Designers we're taught to put our skills at the service of the brand. Let’s say you’re designing for IBM on Monday and Kleenex Toilet Tissue on Tuesday, your output should be as diverse as the products. You should leave your personal preferences at home. Be led by the problem. You should be a chameleon. Ask anyone, everyone knows this is true. But it’s not. Take my, and any civilised person’s favourite designer; Paul Rand; you can spot his work a mile off, the hand-writing, playful cut-outs and use of space. Herb Lubalin, few use or could use type the way he did, so it’s easy to pick his work out of a line-up. Brownjohn, Vignelli, Fletcher, Gill, Kalman, Scher, you name them, if they are great they’ll have their own style. Their own aesthetic world made up with favourite fonts, colours and techniques. I went to hear Paul Rand talk once, I thought he'd be all precious and delicate, talking about abstract concepts. I couldn't have been more wrong, he was blunt, grouchy and straight-talking, more like a New York cabbie than an Artiste. Anyway, someone asked him if he was worried that he had a style. "NO? WHY THE HELL WOULD I BE? I like what I like, other people like what they like, so our work comes out different. My work's unique to Me, their work's unique to them. It’s a good thing." Out taste is shaped by the culture we take in and gravitate towards as we grow up. But when we try to copy it we can't help but add a few dollops of ourselves, which warps it into a new shape. I read an interview with Bryan Ferry where he talked about how much he regretted giving away his influences, he said it made it easier for people to copy him. (I think he was referring to David Sylvian at the time, shows you how long ago it was.) But it's odd, Bryan Ferry copied Smokey Robinson, Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra and a whole bunch of other folks and it came out Bryan Ferry. I've been trying to think of someone whose work is like Mark Denton's. I couldn’t and still can’t. He once described the issue like this ‘People look at my work and put me in this little box, the thing is, I like it in here.’ We had a great chat about Mark’s new book and all the ingredients that make up the fruit cake that is Mark’s brain. Enjoy. p.s. It's on sale here https://www.coy-com.com/shop It'll make a great Christmas present. Particularly for kids (If you rip out page 292). Also parents and grandparents alike (again, probably best rip out page 292). And anyone interested in design. Or puerilty. p.p.s. If none of that appeals to you, maybe you have a damp patch on the wall that you need to cover? https://www.jealousgallery.com/artists/mark-denton-esq?
Alfredo Brown, Mark Denton, & Pablo Martinez talk: Recap of the TNF Game & the Patriots D/ST Injuries To Watch Position Rankings & Handcuffs Start/Sit Decisions Potential Trades to Make Listener Questions DFS Bargains & Stacks --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/fftank/support
Chris Palmer. My 5th boss. His 1st job was as John Hegarty’s writer. He won 5 D&AD silvers in his first in his first year. Set up and agency in his 4th year. Become one the most in demand directors of the last 25 years. Launched, arguably, London’s No 1 production company over over the last two decades; Gorgeous. Also, Mark Denton says Chris can draw better than him. Annoying isn’t it? We had a great chat, hope you enjoy it.
Mark Denton is an inspirational speaker and one of the few remaining people in advertising who genuinely believes in the power of puerility (even deciding to have a bit of totally impromptu fun at the beginning of this interview). He has worked at and founded some of the most creative agencies in the UK over the past four decades and his current shop COY! – a multi-disciplinary creative collective – carries on this fine tradition. Links @mdentonesq Mark's agency and work: https://www.coy-com.com/design The Power of Puerility book: https://tinyurl.com/y6aunaqw Chinese Girl (from Croydon): https://tinyurl.com/y2lylxbh A Pint With Seaniebee Please subscribe to support the podcast: www.patreon.com/seaniebee Audible Feast list of Best Podcast Series of 2016 & 2017: https://tinyurl.com/ya5yj9vs 50 Best Podcast Episodes list 2016 &2017: https://tinyurl.com/y7ryajat Release date: May 20th 2019 Runtime: 33m Recorded: London
Mark Denton is a man of many hats. An art-director, creative-director, executive creative-director, agency founder, director, designer, award-show president and committee-member, producer of plays, Mexican wrestling matches and all manner of visual eccentricity and absurdity. Mark has been recognised at all the major award shows on multiple occasions. He’s also sat on the board of several of them and ultimately, is a household name within the advertising industry. Suffice to say if it exists within the creative industry, Mark’s probably done it. And if it doesn’t exist, Mark’s probably doing it. Mark spoke to me about how he makes so many of his bonkers ideas happen.
Building and flying kit planes can be a very rewarding way to fly, and according to this week's guests, the only way to fly.
Flying turboprops in Canada can be an exciting and rewarding career path. To continue our real world pilot series we chat with Q400 FO, Duncan Gillespie.
As we have wrapped up another amazing year of Infinite Flight, Jason, Mark, and Tyler look ahead at what's next for this mobile flight sim.
Merry Christmas and happy new year to you all! We brought Tyler, Joe, & John along to spread some Christmas cheer and learn about In-Flight Assistant!
Welcome aboard the iconic, Lockheed C-130 Hercules! Retired USCG Senior Chief, Neal Denton shares some stories from his time serving on this amazing bird.
The Blue Angels are the US Navy's flight demonstration squadron. In this episode, Mark & Jason chat about the second oldest aerobatic team in the world.
Infinite Flight consulting is just one of the things that fuels a passion for aviation for Ryan Vince, a ramp service agent & engineering student from Ohio.
We're back yet again with our real world pilot series for another chat with CRJ Pilot, Jared Dichter, for a more techincal look at the CRJ.
This week we dive back into our real world pilot series with CRJ Pilot Jared Dichter, whose passion for aviation is obvious and contagious.
Infinite Flight moderators & co-founder Laura Laban got together for an episode of FlightCast Live! We streamed to Facebook against our better judgement.
The best way to enhance your flying experience is by using LiveFlight for Infinite Flight. Cameron joins us this week to chat LiveFlight 2.0 and iOS.
Dantorp Aviation is a professional airline passenger. Yeah, you read that correctly. Filmmaker & YouTuber Daniel Goz joined us this week for a feature chat.
We're celebrating 1 Year of FlightCast! To help us and chat about the release of the B787 is Infinite Flight developer and co-founder, Philippe Rollin.
The Infinite Flight Community Forum is a huge resource for users. Moderator, Misha Camp joins us for a look into keeping this 11000+ member forum running!
As the Infinite Flight community awaits the release of the Boeing 787, Jason and Mark chat about some of the upcoming features, and listen to a little JT.
In today's episode, Jason and Mark are joined by Tyler Shelton and Joe Reilly to give an Infinite Flight Update on what's coming up next for this simulator!
A lot of work goes into making a Flight Simulator, so the Infinite Flight Airport Editing team is crucial in ensuring the success of this sim. This week, Jason and Mark sit down for a chat with 5 members of this team to find out what they do to make sure the airports in Infinite […]
Jason interviews Steve Thorne, an independent filmmaker & weekend warrior behind Flight Chops, bringing his experiences as a private pilot to the world.
In this mixed bag of discussions, some of the Infinite Flight moderator crew got together to talk about various topics including the phenomenon of lift.
Infinite Flight's pilot community is a strong one. To help make it even stronger, is the newest addition to the FDS team, Mark "Skyhawk Heavy" Denton.
The Dash 8 Q400 has been officially rolled out as part of the Infinite Flight Fleet. Here to help us today is real world Dash 8 pilot, Ard Jan Ottevanger.
Turboprops are coming to Infinite Flight! Jason and Mark are joined by Melvin, who has extensive knowledge and experience flying many types of aircraft.
Rather than cancel FlightCast for the Christmas holidays, we decided to round up the good old boys for a feature chat about what’s coming up for Infinite Flight as well as some general fun and frivolity. Tyler, Mark, Joe, and Jason chat about their Christmas traditions—or lack thereof—and recite a special Infinite Flight version of […]
This week when Jason's guest can't make the interview, Joe and Mark step up and surprise him by turning the tables and interviewing him!
One thing many Infinite Flight fans aspire to do is take their dream of flying from the SIM to the sky. This week we chat with CPL/PPL real world pilots.