SSN Voices Podcast

In this the final episode of the OurVoices Podcast, host Kristin Kalbli shares a little of the wisdom she's accumulated over the years of producing this podcast and over a decade of learning and healing from her own experience in a mixed-orientation marriage. This final episode her gift to you —the loyal and mighty audience — in gratitude for your support, your attention, and your time over the last eight—yes, eight—years.   Stay in touch with Kristin: Her book page: The Mercy Fake (Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61570310436738 Kristin's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristin.kalbli Instagram: @kristinkalbli Substack: https://substack.com/@kristinkalbli74 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kristinkalbli7922 Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life: How to Finally, Really Grow Up by Jungian analyst James Hollis: https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Meaning-Second-Half-Life/dp/1592402070

In today's episode, Kristin obliges audience members who have wondered when she would finally tell her story. Her friend Angela Tonn, who had a front row seat to the demise of Kristin's marriage, joins her to turn the lens on Kristin and ask her the questions she normally asks other people on this show.  If you'd like to know where to find Kristin, check out the links below: Friend her on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristin.kalbli Follow announcements about her book, The Mercy Fake: The Story of One Fake Marriage, Lots of Fake Orgasms, and the Search for What's Real:  https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61570310436738 Instagram: @kristinkalbli Substack: https://substack.com/@kristinkalbli74 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kristinkalbli7922  

Irina's discovery of her husband's sexuality started from accidentally finding a social media account in a locked folder on his phone. Not thinking much of it at first, she enquired him about it, and he burst into tears and said, “I think I am bisexual”. He then shared the account and the rest of his private folder – the contents of which clearly indicated he was attracted to men, as well as women. While feeling betrayed by his withholding such an important piece of information throughout their marriage, she was also impressed by his honesty in sharing his thoughts and emotions during the early weeks and months following the disclosure. She approaches her post-disclosure marriage as a new relationship—one with someone she knows has many good qualities, but whom she is still getting to know.

Today's episode features a presentation of the Minwalla Model of Deceptive Sexuality and Complex Trauma Treatment. In 2006, Dr. Omar Minwalla began to study the signs of Complex Trauma related stress in people whose spouses had committed infidelity. Minwalla's powerful educational metaphor, the “Secret Sexual Basement”, has made the personal, relational, and sociological abuses that comprise deceptive sexuality accessible to everyone.  By putting the spotlight on the harms of “deceptive sexuality,” Minwalla shows how clinically significant deficits in integrity enable infidelity and can rise to the level of an Integrity Abuse Disorder, which he categorizes as a form of intimate partner abuse.  From here we take Minwalla's model a step further and posit that closeted LGBT+ spouses in mixed orientation marriages have a Secret Sexual Basement of their own. This compartmentalized secret sexual reality not only contains secret sexual behaviors that may or may not be going on, but also contains their hidden or obscured sexual orientation or gender identity. It's not just that deception is employed to cover infidelity, it's that, intentional or not, deception may be deployed to cover sexuality itself. In the case of marriage closets, as with infidelity, concealment behaviors, manipulation and deceptive management of straight spouses constitutes patterns of emotional, psychological and relational harm that may give rise to symptoms of complex trauma in straight spouses.  DR. OMAR MINWALLA WEBSITE: https://minwallamodel.com DR. OMAR MINWALLA PODCAST INTERVIEWS Understanding Betrayal with Dr. Omar Minwalla. Part 1 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000465644823   Understanding Betrayal with Dr. Omar Minwalla. Part 2 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000469245574   Understanding Betrayal with Dr. Omar Minwalla. Part 3 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/helping-couples-heal-podcast/id1462962051?i=1000472914618   Real Talk About Cheating (Tell Me How You're Mighty with Chump Lady Tracy Shorn)  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tell-me-how-youre-mighty-real-talk-about-cheating/id1703987977   OURVOICES PODCAST EPISODES: Michelle Mays  https://bit.ly/S6Ep13OPOV_YT   Debi Silber https://bit.ly/S4Ep2OPOV_YT   Tracy Shorn https://bit.ly/S6Ep1OPOV_YT   Ryan King https://bit.ly/S4Ep3OPOV_YT   William Dameron https://bit.ly/S2Ep15OPOV_YT   Helen Fitzgibbons https://bit.ly/S2Ep11OPOV_YT

Not only was OurPath Volunteer David Harte surprised to learn his wife was a lesbian, he was surprised that her family already knew she was. “One of her friends told me [my wife] had come out in her early 20's. That wasn't accepted by her family at all, hence, when I met her, her family were very encouraging of us getting married and having a child. I didn't realize they were trying to marry her off.” Ten years later, David has found purpose and healing in paying forward the invaluable support he received from OurPath while in the early days after disclosure.

Tom Jones was married to a woman for 22 years and hid in a deep closet in denial. His wife was aware of his same sex attraction early on, but not the depth of it. A positive HIV status and an acute addition to crystal meth deeply impacted their marriage and lives, resulting in divorce. His wife was diagnosed with cancer and passed away just two years following their divorce, requiring Tom to raise their two daughters. Although close at the end of his wife's life, Tom, now 68, feels they never had to opportunity to truly mend.  In this episode, he shares how he believes his cowardice and inability to accept himself for who he was impacted the lives of his wife, his family, and those around him. He has carried deep remorse for his choices, and wants straight spouses to know they are deserving of accountability and amends.  Like this content? Show your appreciation with a donation directory to the podcast to keep the content coming! bit.ly/OPpodcastDONATE

Filmmaker Vaishnavi Sundar discusses her recently released documentary: Behind the Looking Glass, which delves into the lives and experiences of women whose partners have, or want to, transition. With voices from women worldwide, this film is the first of its kind. Today's conversation touches on pornography, coercive control, emotional, financial and sexual abuse that for some women, coincide with their husbands identifying as trans.  Vaishnavi is a writer and a self-taught filmmaker from Chennai, India. Through her films, she advocates for the rights of women and girls worldwide. A decade ago she founded Lime Soda Films with the aim of highlighting themes of social justice, women's empowerment and education. She is the Founder of Women Making Films (WMF) – a platform for female filmmakers to collaborate and create works of art, and has had the privilege of hosting the work of members from more than 20 countries. Behind the Looking Glass film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frffv2sB8zE Website: https://limesodafilms.com Twitter/X: @LimeSodaFilms  

Dr. Ben Schilaty, a social work professor and therapist, explains the Six Stages of Coming Out (first observed by Dr. Vivienne Cass in the 1970's). We explore both the experiences of LGBT+ spouses progressing through these stages, along with the corresponding experiences of straight spouses at each stage. This conversation aims to shed light on the various behaviors straight spouses may observe from their LGBT+ partners, as well as give context to straight spouses' feelings and experiences as their partners work through the coming out process.  Ben is the author of A Walk In My Shoes: Questions I am Often Asked as a Gay Latter Day Saint and cohosts the podcast "All Out in the Open" with his friend Charlie Bird. He is a cofounder of the Gather Conference which offers Christ-centered support to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and those who love them. Website: https://www.benschilaty.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/benschilaty/ Podcast: https://questionsfromthecloset.com

Ray Alex Williams used to go by the name Rachel. A former trans woman, today he refers to himself as a detransitioner. In this episode, he shares his perspective on his own transition process, including his true motivations for transitioning.  Exploring a diversity of essential perspectives like Ray's can provide wives whose husbands have come out as trans with honest and vital information about gender transition in their own marriages, so they are better able to make fully informed decisions for their own lives.  X: @RayAlexWilliams YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RayAlexWilliams

When Christine discovered her husband was gay after thirteen years of marriage, at first she felt relief that the disconnect between them had been explained. Anger and grief came much later. But when her oldest child came out as trans a few years later, she felt her grief first. Many straight spouses in mixed orientations marriages have LGBT+ children and face the challenge of reconciling conflicting feelings around those respective comings out. On today's show, our guest talks about the dissonance between her feelings when her spouse came out and when her child came out, and how she worked through the feelings to find acceptance.

When another husband called Wade out of the blue to tell him both their wives were spending time together on a vacation that very moment, Wade Ferris knew the writing was on the wall. With candor and vulnerability, Wade shares his story of learning that his wife of 23 years is a lesbian during the pandemic. A dedicated father and husband, Wade tried for decades to unlock the stalemate and repair the lack of intimacy in his marriage. By his own admission, the disconnect from his wife made him resentful and "not much fun to be around." He went on a mission to correct everything his wife complained was wrong with him, at last becoming what she called, "the perfect husband." But, as he soon found out, this was not enough to save their mixed orientation marriage.  Wade is currently writing a book about the straight spouse experience.   

Podcaster, Writer and coming out Coach Anne-Marie Zanzal shares her journey to coming out as a late-life lesbian after decades in a straight marriage. With the hope of building understanding and healing for straight husbands, she sheds light on the experiences of women coming out later in life and answers their questions.    About Anne-Marie: https://annemariezanzal.com Coming Out and Beyond Podcast: https://annemariezanzal.com/coming-out-stories-beyond-podcast/  

Karen Slater had a lot to forgive her closeted husband for, not the least of which is the impact his sexual rejection had on her. It created profound insecurity about her body and sparked years of yo-yo dieting, trying to reignite their sex life, only to have her efforts fail and the cycle repeat. In this conversation, she shares all she had to forgive, why she chose to forgive it, and how she was able to, all while insisting what her husband did in his efforts to maintain his closet were not ok.   DONATE to the OurVoices podcast: https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/WebLink.aspx?name=E342718&id=47

Author Ann Anderson Evans shares her story of loss and healing after she discovered her husband's body the morning after he took his own life. After a decades long struggle with his gender identity and her husband's suicide, Ann has worked to make sense of her life, the man she married, and the hidden pain he carried. Ann's story is nuanced, complicated, and defies expectations from every angle.  Website: www.annandersonevans.com Book: https://annandersonevans.com/the-sweet-pain-of-being-alive/    

Author and Coach Sally Srok shares her experience of losing herself in a 20-year mixed orientation marriage, learning her husband was gay, and how she rebuilt her life after divorce. After a birthday trip on a cattle drive reawakened her sense of self, Sally found the strength to confront her unhappy marriage, pursue a divorce, and keep her children's lives as stable as possible through it all. But it wasn't until she reexamined a draft of her book, Bonus Round, that she realized she still had to face her anger. Website: www.sallysrok.com Book: Amazon.com: Bonus Round: A Gay Ex-Husband, a Divorce, and a Life Reimagined eBook : Srok, Sally

Today we talk to Licensed Professional Counselor and expert in treating sexual betrayal Michelle Mays. She is the author of The Betrayal Bind: How to Heal When the Person You Love the Most Hurts you the Worst. We discuss the emotional and psychological impact of sexual betrayal on betrayed partners, the four types of gaslighting and their effects, how shame operates in both partners in the relationships, and how to heal.   Website: www.michellemays.com Book: The Betrayal Bind: How to Heal When the Person You Love the Most Hurts You the Worst: Mays LPC CSAT-S, Michelle: 9781949481778: Amazon.com: Books

In part 2 of our deep dive into forgiveness, we seek a spiritual perspective with Methodist Pastor Carter Cortelyou. We talk about why it can be so hard to let go of the identity of being a straight spouse, what lies on the other side of forgiveness, and why forgiveness can make us feel vulnerable.  Carter Cortelyou is a United Methodist clergy person who has been serving congregations in Michigan since 1990. He currently pastors Novi (long “I”) United Methodist Church in the suburbs of Detroit. His ex-wife came out to him in October 2009 after 24 years of marriage. He married his wife Andrea In September 2013. Carter is a past Board President of OurPath and serves as the Metro Detroit support contact.

It's no secret that people who have been betrayed often have a hard time forgiving the person who betrayed them. Resistance to "letting them off the hook" is understandable. In this illuminative conversation with Professor Everette Worthington, we learn the science and research behind forgiveness - what it is, how to do it, and why it matters for our health and wellbeing.  Everett Worthington is Commonwealth Professor Emeritus at Virginia Commonwealth University. Ev (which he prefers to be called) notes that his salary is retired but he isn't. He still maintains a license as a Clinical Psychologist in Virginia, and he has published over 45 books and 500 scholarly publications. Currently, he is completing a couple of books (self-forgiveness and couple therapy), and he usually publishes about 20 articles a year, mostly related to forgiveness, humility, and other positive psychology topics. He says that his life mission is "to do all I can to promote forgiveness in every willing heart, home, and homeland."   Website: evworthington-forgiveness.com Free workbooks: reach.discoverforgiveness.org

Michael Slepian is the leading expert on the psychology of secrets and author of The Secret Life of Secrets. Slepian has authored more than fifty articles on secrecy, truth, and deception. We talk about why people keep their sexual orientation and gender identity secret (among other secrets), how secrets impact both the secret keeper and those that secrets are kept from, and whether or not it's ethical to keep a secret from someone who has a stake in knowing the truth (such as a spouse or partner).   Website: https://www.columbia.edu/~ms4992/

Dr. Gary Bischof is a professor and coordinator of the Marriage, Couple and Family Counseling Program in the Dept of Counselor Education and Counseling Psychology at Western Michigan University. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in the treatment of couples navigating the gender transition of one of the partners. In this episode, he discusses the pitfalls for couples negotiating gender transition, the factors that can lead to couples staying together, and what competent couples therapy looks like for couples in this situation.

In our most raw and vulnerable interview yet, guest Arti O'Brien shares what it was like to discover only a year ago that her soulmate, best friend and husband of 30+ years had been cheating on her with men for the entirety of their marriage. They were the perfect couple: compatible in multiple ways, mutually affectionate confidants, and looking toward a happy retirement. It all changed when Arti noticed a romantic text on her husband's phone that wasn't from her... 

After discovering that her husband was regularly dialing "Manhunt," one of the most iconic telephone dating services for gay men, Suzanne knew her marriage was not what she thought. After she left the marriage she endured two decades of post separation abuse and coercive control. Her experience has lead her to become a certified high conflict divorce coach and write her memoir: Cover Wife: Escaping the Wrath of a Closeted (Gay) Narcissist.    Website: hopedoesntquit.com Email: suzanne@hopedoesntquit.com Book: https://www.amazon.com/Cover-Wife-Escaping-Closeted-Narcissist-ebook/dp/B0C8DV3BDR/ref=sr_1_1?crid=325R53VTOP704&keywords=cover+wife+suzanne+hope&qid=1692142729&s=digital-text&sprefix=cover+wife+suzanne+hope%2Cdigital-text%2C119&sr=1-1

When our guest Phil Illy found out he had a sexual orientation that he'd never heard of, he set out to understand it. Following an extensive review of nearly a century of research from clinical sexology, Phil describes and demystifies autoheterosexuality, and how this much misunderstood sexual orientation can set someone on a path to becoming transgender. He helps spouses and partners of trans people learn how the course of autoheterosexuality progresses, how to better understand the ones they love, how to contextualize what is happening during transition, and have the best information to make decisions for their lives.  Need support? Fill out a support request here. Your financial support helps make this content possible. If you would like to contribute to the podcast, please donate here.   HOW TO FIND PHIL: autoheterosexual.com twitter.com/autogynephilic autoheterosexual@gmail.com SUPPORT THE PUBLICATION OF PHIL'S BOOK: AUTOHETEROSEXUAL: paypal.me/phililly

Our favorite self-described former closeted gay narcissist in recovery joins us for a third time to answer audience questions. In this episode he helps us demystify and identify the deflection, script flipping, gaslighting, blame shifting and shame shifting tactics some closeted spouses may exhibit during the course of a mixed orientation marriage or partnership.   Need support? Fill out a support request here. Your financial support helps make this content possible. If you would like to contribute to the podcast, please donate here.

10 years ago, Bridget unknowingly married a gay man. He came out to her just four months ago. In this raw, deeply honest episode, Bridget takes listeners on a journey through the early days of her heartbreak with vulnerability and realness. She talks about anger, depression, and coping with learning that her marriage was not what she thought. She may have learned that she was not at fault for the distance in her marriage, but her husband's secret created the conditions for her to spend years blaming herself for their disconnect.  Need support? Fill out a support request here. Your financial support helps make this content possible. If you would like to contribute to the podcast, please donate here.

Jessica Frew is a wife, ex-wife, mom, stepmom, and she hosts a podcast called “Husband in Law” that she records with her husband, Matt, and her ex-husband, Steve, who is gay. Jessica shares here own story of Mixed Orientation Marriage, how they tried to make it work, how it eventually fell apart, and how she and her ex-husband managed to co-create a loving and respectful friendship on the other side of betrayal.  Need support? Fill out a support request here. Your financial support helps make this content possible. If you would like to contribute to the podcast, please donate here.    

Your financial support helps make this content possible. If you would like to contribute to the podcast, please donate here. Jason Abair shares his story of high conflict divorce after his wife's coming out. He describes how he navigated serious unfounded accusations, being arrested in front of his children based on those accusations, and the consequences of all of it for his children. He also describes how he rebuilt an exciting new life on the ashes of his old one. Need support? Fill out a support request here.

If you would like to support this episode, please donate here.  On today's Season 6 opener, Chump Lady Tracy Schorn talks about cheating, double lives and closets (of all kinds), and the toll being a chump can take on an unsuspecting spouse or partner. Tracy cuts through the nonsense and calls a spade a spade: cheating is the "theft of your reality" and it sets up an abusive power dynamic. With trademark frankness and wit, Tracy tells us exactly why.  Website: Chump Lady.com Book: Leave a Cheater Gain a Life

Dr. Blanchard is widely known for his typology of transexuals and as the originator of the term Autogynephilia, a controversial paraphilia which describes a heterosexual male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as women. Dr. Blanchard was the psychologist in the Adult Gender Identity Clinic at the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry—now part of the CAMH (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health)—from 1980–1995. Much of his research in those 15 years concerned transsexualism and milder forms of gender identity disorders. In 1995, he was appointed Head of the newly created Clinical Sexology Services at the CAMH. This unit comprised the Adult Gender Identity Clinic. Since his retirement, he has continued to be active in research on human sexuality.

In this episode, our guest describes the domestic abuse she endured at the hands of her husband, who was also closeted. She shares the danger signs of domestic abuse, her risky exit from her marriage, and how she now uses her experience to become an advocate for both Straight Partners and Domestic abuse survivors.

Philippa wasn't sure what it meant for her marriage when her husband came out to her as transgender/non-binary. The road after disclosure was a rocky one, and at times, Philippa didn't think her marriage would survive. She describes how, with a commitment to treat each other with respect and honesty through the process, they arrived at a marriage that does not require a massive compromise on either of their parts.

Kirsten Duncan, host of the Unexpected Launch podcast, talks about her husband's disclosure that he is gay, how her entire life as she knew it changed in that moment, and how listening to other peoples' stories of navigating big life challenges helped her move forward. She shares the questions and doubts she has about her history, and why it's so hard to talk about having a spouse come out.

Ryan King returns to the podcast to answer your most common questions about closeted narcissists, their motivations and behaviors. He speaks from his own experience and his experience working with other closeted, married (to women) men. He uses what he's observed to bring clarity and validation to Straight Partners. 

Zoë Kors is a sought-after sex and intimacy coach. She gives us a road map to heal our sexual selves after relationship betrayal. After sexual betrayal, there is an opportunity to reimagine our sexual expression, whether that's with an existing partner or with a new partner. We explore what is possible for women and men when they embrace their authentic sexual selves and choose pleasure, intimacy, and joy.

Dr. Michael Plank is a pastor and professor. When his wife disclosed that she is a lesbian, their lives as church leaders seemed to hang in the balance. With the help of a qualified trauma therapist, Michael had to find a way to the bottom of his anger, and back out again, in order to heal and find a healthy co-parenting relationship with his former wife.

Shannon Thrace talks about how sex and intimacy with her spouse changed when they transitioned genders. In this frank, vulnerable and explicit conversation, Shannon shares how gender transition impacted her sexual relationship with her partner, as well as their connection to each other's bodies.

Marta Kauffman, creator of the Netflix series Grace and Frankie, joins us to talk about the inspiration behind her characters, how the idea to give them gay husbands came about, and how her characters, as portrayed by Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, survive and thrive after late in life divorce.

2/3 of Mixed Orientation Couples will try to stay together post disclosure or discovery. Often they try opening their relationships as a way to keep their families together. Guest Libby Sinback is the host of the Making Polyamory Work Podcast. She gives us a 101 tutorial on open relationships, and how to proceed with mindfulness, respect, and realistic expectations.

Janice and her husband were members of the US military during the “Don't Ask Don't Tell” era. That enforced secrecy, combined with being southern, Baptist, and African American, meant her husband had no safety to come out as gay. In this episode, Janice describes what it was like to live with a husband who began living a double life immediately after they married, the impact his secrecy had on her, and how she recovered her sense of self and her own value.

Christian therapist Candice Czubernat never expected to be working with Straight Partners as part of her LGBT+ affirming therapy practice. But many of her LGBT+ clients were told the same thing she was told by a pastor as a young woman: if they prayed hard enough and lived a righteous life, the gay would go away. When that didn't happen, the Straight Partners of her LGBT+ clients ended up in therapy too, trying to understand what went wrong.

In this open and heartfelt conversation with Jonathan Williams, son of transgender writer and speaker Paula Stone Williams, he shares his own journey through disbelief, anger, resentment, and finally, acceptance that his father was a trans woman. As an Evangelical pastor who followed in his father's footsteps, having a transgender parent was a career ending development. Jonathan shares how he journeyed from pastor to ally and eventually left his church and created the first truly LGBT+ affirming Evangelical church in Brooklyn, NY.

Fitness entrepreneur, energy healer, transformation and empowerment coach Priscilla Tuft has a gift for guiding people through radical transformations. And she's been through one of her own as the wife of former WWE Champion wrestler Gabe Tuft. In this episode, Priscilla describes her journey after Gabe came out as transgender and transitioned to Gabbi. She talks about being in the closet with Gabbi during the early months of her transition, the “processing process” she's been through, and how she's found healing and light in the fire of spiritual transformation.

Ryan King knew he was gay from the time he was six years old. Despite this, he married a woman. In this double-length episode, Ryan sheds light on the abusive, narcissistic tactics he used to keep his unsuspecting wife trapped in their affectionless marriage, in the hope that other Straight Partners will recognize the signs of a closeted spouse. Under the pseudonym “Sean,” he created the thread “A Gay Ex-Husband Answers Your Questions” on the Open Forum specifically to answer Straight Partner questions about patterns of behavior common to some closeted partners.

Dr. Debi Silber is the founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute and is a holistic psychologist, a health, mindset and personal development expert, the author of Trust Again: Overcoming Betrayal and Regaining Health, Confidence and Happiness. Today on the show, we talk about Post Betrayal Syndrome, the impact betrayal trauma has on the body and the psyche, and how people can heal from intimate partner betrayal through a process called Post Betrayal Transformation.

Welcome to OurPath, formerly the Straight Spouse Network. Today on the show, founder Dr. Amity Pierce Buxton, Executive Director Kelly Hollimon, and board member Tiffany Butler discuss the rebranding of the Straight Spouse Network as OurPath, Inc. They answer all your questions about why the organization decided to adopt a new name and rebrand, how the process unfolded, and how they envision the new name, new website and resources will ultimately help Straight Partners and Partners of Trans People find their own path post disclosure or discovery.

Deborah Simmons is co-author of the pre-published book, “What’s a Good Man to Do? A Candid Conversation about Sexuality.” Today she shares how to open up to dating again after traumatic relationship experiences. She advises men how to navigate their desire for women during the #MeToo era, and shares tips for honesty in discussions around our own sexualities in new relationships. She shares advice for facing vulnerability when dating, embracing it, and finding meaning from those relationship traumas that can be carried forward into new relationships.  

Psychotherapist Ross Rosenberg is an expert in clinical narcissism, narcissistic personality disorders and sociopathy. Today he discusses what happens when a narcissistic or sociopathic individual intentionally hides their sexuality with the intention of harming others or for personal gain. “Sexual orientation is independent of psychopathology,” he says, but "the sociopath who needs to fit into society requires a backdrop, proof of their legitimacy so they can operate in the world. Often that requires a marriage. They need to get married, get a house, get children, so no one will question their harmful and abusive intentions. That is why they hide their sexuality and orientation with no detection.”

Married couple Stephanie and Debbie Hayton get personal in their discussion of Debbie’s gender transition, candidly sharing how it impacted their relationship and their family. Debbie tried to suppress her desire to transition until she no longer could. Stephanie tried to keep the family together as best as she could. This vulnerable interview highlights the fact that transition impacts every member of a family, not just the person transitioning.

As a young, gay African American male from a Christian background, Nigel Ashford believed he would have to marry a woman to make his family and God happy. He didn’t think about the potential wife in the scenario: “To be honest I wasn’t thinking about the other person. I hate to say it, but the only thing I was thinking of was ‘how do I make my family and God happy? What do they want me to do? What do I need to do to make sure I’m pleasing them? Through representation and visibility, Nigel saw examples of other gay men living fulfilling lives, and decided he could do that as an out gay man too.

Today, Layla Ali, a 19-year-old closeted lesbian from a conservative Muslim family, speaks about growing up as a gay Muslim, and the pressure she feels to marry a man. In fact, Layla isn’t even her real name, and we used a voice actress to portray her, because it is not safe for her to come out publicly. Layla talks about how marrying an opposite sex partner is expected of her, and she was headed down that road until she listened to the stories of straight husbands and decided that she never wanted to hurt anyone in that way. She says, “straight spouses deserve to love in truth.”

Today on the show, a self-identified Trans Widow speaks about the gender transition of her husband. Initially, she made efforts to accept her husband’s need to cross dress, even accompanying him on nights out while he was dressed as a woman. But when he announced his intention to fully transition, she knew the marriage she had tried so hard to maintain had to end. She shares how negotiating boundaries with her husband around his cross-dressing, only to have those boundaries crossed time and time again, eroded her psychological wellbeing until she needed medical intervention.