Unveiling Grace Podcast

Guest co-host Katie (Wilder) Warren joins the conversation for a special women's podcast. Julie grew up LDS in Ogden, UT and married her high school sweetheart, who joined the LDS Church. They never married in the temple. Julie always wondered, “If this was God's house, why would he keep anyone out of it?”

Pastor Mike and Rosa Abbate share salvation stories from 18 years of ministry to the FLDS in LeBaron, Mexico. Mike notes LeBaron is 60 miles from an LDS temple in Colonia Juarez where George Romney and later Mitt grew up. First of the salvation stories is Lila LeBaron, now with the Adam's Road ministry. Find her story on Episodes 78 & 79.

By an act of God, Pastor Michael Abbate was placed in charge of the monumental 3-day FLDS LeBaron Family reunion in Lebaron, Mexico in 2006. Prep took a year. The mariachi band he'd hired cancelled at the last minute, so the Christian worship band he'd hired for the Sunday service played worship music all 3 days. On Sunday, Mike shared the gospel with 300 in Rosa's fundamentalist father (Dayer LeBaron, Jr.)'s church

Rosa LeBaron Abbate's grandfather was Alma Dayer LeBaron, Sr. who left Utah for Chihuahua, Mexico when polygamy was outlawed and polygamists were persecuted. LDS Prophet John Taylor had purchased 100,000 acres in 1885 so that 350 faithful polygamist families could live out their faith. They lived in Chihuahua until Pancho Villa kicked them out of Mexico in 1910 during the Mexican Revolution. After the Revolution, they returned.

Vince met Ashley online and 30 days later, they married in Gatlinburg. He was LDS; she went to a Baptist church. The day she chose to profess Christ publicly and get baptized, he got drunk. LDS and constantly struggling with the idea that he was not good enough, Vince had a moment of infidelity. His old pattern kicked in.

Having given his life to Jesus, Vince remained LDS, attending a singles ward in Virginia. He seemed to have a good experience at the LDS temple as he checked boxes preparing to serve a mission. The missionary training center in Provo, Utah, however, stressed him out. “But, where would I have gone to talk to somebody?”

For Vince, issues with the LDS church began at age 16 when his mom accused him of sleeping with a girlfriend; he wasn't. He sincerely wanted to be trusted. His older sister had gotten emancipated from their LDS parents wanting freedom from all the rules. She introduced Vince to marijuana and he began doing drugs—eventually writing some bad checks.

Devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, like Kronk from the Emperor's New Groove. Should I leave him or mend this marriage? Now separated, Vince's addictions interfered with their relationship and everyone had an opinion. As LDS, many men feel great pressure to do more, become better. Vince struggled with guilt.

God answers Ashley's concerns—of all places—in the Celestial room of an LDS temple. At the time, her husband was all-in LDS. But as a Christian, she felt convicted: You know the truth.

In addition to the requirements of performance-based religion and not being able to sing the LDS hymn, Praise to the Man, Ashley, a born again Christian, encountered other things that bothered her about the LDS church after she joined. For her LDS baptism, she had chosen a beloved Christian hymn. That hymn had to be approved by her bishop and he denied her. A year after being active LDS, Ashley desired to earn the right to have a forever family. She and Vince now had 2 daughters ages five and one. She needed to make herself worthy to enter an LDS temple by passing two temple recommend interviews (bishop and stake president). The last question in that interview bothered her.

Ashley grew up in a home without faith but her parents got saved when she was in her 20s. They now suggested she marry the guy she was living with—the marriage lasted 7 months. After the divorce, Ashley met the nicest guy. Vince was an inactive member of the LDS church, which made no difference to her at the time.

This week we invited Matt Wilder to put together some excerpts from a presentation he frequently performs at churches called Teachings of Jesus. Grab a drink, maybe your Bible, and settle in to commune with God through music and Scripture.

Matt called upon the name of the Lord and received His peace and the rest that passes understanding. At the time, he was a piano performance major entering his senior year at Brigham Young University, but anyone who disaffiliates with the LDS church cannot stay at BYU. Having been dramatically changed, he began sharing the gospel of grace to friends/family (his now wife Nicole), left BYU, and became a founding member of the Adam's Road Ministry in Florida in 2006. Having unusual giftings in piano performance, music composition, and memorizing Scripture, in 2017, Matt says God laid on his heart to expand the reach of Adam's Road to include the Adam's Road Piano Ministry. In addition to traveling to give his testimony at churches with Adam's Road, Matt memorizes Scripture, puts original music he composes behind the Scripture, and bears his testimony of Jesus to church audiences in his own unique gospel presentation. He describes the details of salvations from Idaho to Nevada to Indiana, Utah, and Arizona. God is using the Adam's Road Piano presentation as well as the Adam's Road Podcast—which he does weekly—to change hearts toward the gospel of grace.

Why is salvation by God's grace so extraordinary a gift for one who has felt the burden of guilt within a rigid, works-based religious system? What is it like to be a Mormon missionary? Matt Wilder of Adam's Road Piano discusses the weight of the LDS performance-based system as a Mormon missionary in Chapter 3 of the book Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message. When LDS, he felt constantly guilted. Had he sufficiently repented of his sins? Life as an LDS missionary was regimented—rules-based. Missionaries report numbers regularly to mission leaders. With an emphasis on goals and numbers, measured success led to rewards. Matt likens the efficiency of accountability similar to that of a business. For him, the weight of these continual expectations manifested themselves internally—emotionally and physically as he strove to prove himself worthy.

Is truth what we feel to be true? What do you do when what you know to be true clashes with what you are feeling is true?Pastor and researcher Jon Benzinger is our guest again for a fast-paced, fact-filled discussion on the top 5 reasons we can trust the Bible to be our reliable guide for life and relationship with God and others. We also talk about the importance of feelings and we explore how performance-based religion often gets it wrong when it comes to our feelings and how we know truth. Lynn and Jon also talk candidly about how God used the Bible to personally change their lives and the hope and healing that is there for anyone who is seeking transformation.

Our guest is Jon Benzinger, Lead Pastor at Redeemer Bible in Gilbert, AZ. He's done extensive study on the multiple lines of evidence for the reliability and trustworthiness of the Bible. Jon is an excellent communicator and engaged with us with authenticity and clarity. He has an incredible heart for people, especially the predominant demographics in Gilbert -- Hispanics, retirees, and Mormons.

As Richard studied the Bible and attended a small church, he felt infused by the Holy Spirit. He was drawn to read the Bible, and returned to prayer. He says, after 10 years, his heart turned back to Jesus. That's where love was, that's where peace was. He felt home and prayed for God to show him what he wanted him to do. Please pound me on the head, he prayed, so I can make sure to hear it. Every week at church, his friend Danny said “Hey, I just saw this 17-minute video testimony of an LDS missionary that came to faith in the Jesus of the Bible. You might want to make a movie about this. Promise me you'll watch it.” Richard had no intention of watching it and avoided doing so for weeks. The last thing he wanted to do was make another movie about Mormonism! One Saturday night he knew Danny would ask him about it again at church in the morning, so he found the video on YouTube and watched it. He was powerfully moved, overcome with emotion. “Really [God]?! You want me to make a movie about a Mormon missionary who becomes a Christian?!” Soon after, Richard boarded a plane to Winter Garden, FL, to meet that young man with the 17-minute testimony. His first night there, sitting by the fountain in downtown Winter Garden, he just KNEW this was what he was supposed to do; the Lord had been preparing him his whole life. He moved to Florida, researched those involved in the story, and wrote a movie script titled Jesus is Enough. Richard is currently seeking funding to produce the movie. His heart is to help others know why Jesus is Enough.

Richard says if he could talk to himself at the time of his LDS faith crisis, he would have said “Get to a Christian church!” He grieved the loss of his faith in the LDS church, the loss of his wife and children, the LDS filmmaking, for a very long time. He never lost faith in God but stopped talking with him and lived through 10 years of discouragement and defeat. Now a famous apostate, he stayed in Utah to be near his kids. Richard describes sitting on his front porch in Provo with a huge Christos statue from one of his movies in his front yard drinking wine and smoking cigars as LDS families walked by to go to church. In his misery, drinking too much, he made a comedy and a horror film but his faith was dead. Films and faith had separated. He wanted nothing to do with church ever again doubting he could ever discern between what was real and what wasn't. Yet, amid these trials, the Lord brought him back to life through a pastor in line behind him at a hamburger joint. He attended Bible study, finding Christians authentic about their struggles, not pressuring him in any way but teaching him salvation came through God's righteousness not his own. Richard dove hungrily into the “New Testament with Mormonism distant.” He began to love the Word knowing he could never put faith in men again. And hope emerged that God had something better for his life.

Hailed as the father of Mormon Cinema, Richard Dutcher released his independent film God's Army in 2000. It was a critical success heralded by Larry King Live, loved by the New York Times, so his second LDS film, Brigham City, was easy to fund. For the first time, these movies showed the words of the LDS Sacrament prayer, blessing for the sick, and other LDS practices right on screen depicting Richard's own experiences as a Latter-day Saint. Next, he intended to write/produce a film about the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, so he commenced a serious study of Joseph's life and early church history. Larry Miller, a wealthy LDS businessman who owned the Utah Jazz, committed to partially back the film. Richard's success in LDS films begot other LDS film makers. One day after months of exhaustive study of all things Joseph Smith—finding things that bothered him but not yet questioning his faith—Richard went to his knees beside his bed to pray. Arising to sit on his bed in a meditative state, he says God spoke to him so clearly from the deepest, truest part of him; he knew it was God. He heard, “Of course it isn't true.” Richard's feelings changed in seconds from peaceful to terrifying. Everything he believed wasn't true. A final LDS movie, God's Army 2: States of Grace, became his farewell to Mormonism. The theme was sin, forgiveness, and God's amazing grace. Many LDS were not ready to accept the Christian view of grace nor the Christian cross seen in the movie. It was a financial failure. Soon after, Richard went public with the news that he was leaving the LDS church. All his LDS investors disappeared. His marriage dissolved; they have 7 children. Richard says knowing what he now knew, he just couldn't stay. He didn't have a choice.

At age 7, Richard went to his first movie in a theatre, the 1920s art deco Granada Theatre in Mt. Vernon, IL. He immediately knew he wanted to be involved with filmmaking. After high school, he attended one year at Brigham Young University. During a Star Wars movie, seeing the battle between good and evil, Richard chose to serve an LDS mission and delay his film career. He went to Mexico where he was thrown in jail for proselytizing. At the end of his LDS mission, his mission president advised him to go home and “build your own kingdom.” In an effort to begin his own kingdom, Richard married an LDS wife headed to Hollywood where he decided to create independent films. His first film caused him to re-evaluated his life and re-dedicate himself to his LDS faith. Grilling burgers for his family, he suddenly got the idea to blend his independent filmmaking with his Mormon religion. As he became the father of Mormon cinema, God worked on his heart.

A devout member of the LDS church, he had known from childhood that his passion was to make films. When he got the idea to meld his cinema training with his LDS faith, he thought he had found his purpose in life. Check out his early movies God's Army and Brigham City. Yet, in the midst of his initial success, he had a spiritual experience that rocked his world. He tells us what happened and how everything changed in that moment. 

We discuss the very complicated LDS plan of salvation. Pre-existent spirits in heaven with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, literal parents of spirits. Then the second estate or earth life. After earth, LDS go to paradise; everyone else to spirit prison to be taught the LDS gospel. If one accepts the LDS gospel in the next life, they can be released from spirit prison and advance to paradise to await the judgment. Dr. Eklund explains what the LDS missionaries teach about this LDS plan of salvation and gives a biblical response. See this information in the fifth chapter of the book Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message.

How and when did Dr. Eklund become born again? Blue pill or red pill? Matt asks himself, “When I die, do I want Joseph Smith on my side or the Bible on my side?” Can one be born again and remain in the LDS church? These are questions we explore in this episode. When Matt decided he could no longer remain LDS, his LDS fiancé left him. But, he knew a peace he had never experienced before.

Dr. Eklund describes the truths that broke his LDS shelf as he read the Bible and explored church history. He mentions Ephesians 2:8-9, Matthew 22:31, John 6, and the book of Romans as being impactful. He discovers fundamental biblical ideas are incompatible with essential teachings in Mormonism; some are: (1) the nature of the Trinitarian God, (2) there is only One God and He is unchangeable, (3) Salvation comes by grace through faith and not by our works, (4) justification – one is made right before God by Christ's righteousness, like putting on a cloak, again, not by our works, and (5) LDS priesthood functions like a mediator between one and Jesus – there is no mediator but Jesus. As a scientist, he likens Bible truths and LDS gospel essentials to immiscible fluids. They are incompatible.

Matt discusses how isolating and difficult an LDS mission can be for a missionary who endures rejection many times a day. We encourage Christians to befriend missionaries and engage in respectful and critical conversation. He alludes to some odd happenings in his LDS mission before his time there (the same mission Mitt Romney served in) when several missionaries eventually followed a counselor to the French Mission president into the LeBaron polygamy group in Mexico. 

The Wilders interview Dr. Matthew Eklund, raised LDS in northern Utah. He was baptized at age 10, active on and off during his teen years, Matt eventually desired to receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon. He decided that if he received one, he would serve an LDS mission. The LDS prophet challenged all church members to read the Book of Mormon in 2005. Matt took the challenge, felt a kind of peace, believing this to mean the Book of Mormon was true, so Joseph Smith must have been a prophet of God, and the LDS Church must be the one true church. He served an LDS mission in Belgium, never really questioning his LDS faith. Listen to the next episodes to find out how and why Matt left Mormonism and found Jesus. Dr. Eklund holds a PhD in Nuclear Engineering and Science.

Anna continues to share her story of validating and highlighting the concerns she began to have about the Mormon faith. She compared verses from the Bible and Mormon scripture, did internet research,  and dug into apologetics. Struggling with what to believe, where true faith was, and holding on to the romantic relationship that she longed for, she continued to study. Rejoice with Anna as she shares answers to prayer and the peace and joy she has finally found in Jesus!

Anna Banister was raised in a biblical Christian family but drawn away from her faith to Mormonism through a relationship with an LDS man and his family. The Latter-day Saints taught her that the more persecution she received for pursuing Mormonism, the more she could know that she was choosing the right path. Opposition from biblical Christians was a confirmation Mormonism was true. Anna says she thought Mormonism was giving her control over her own salvation. She was searching, hoping that Mormonism would be true and she was excited about having a forever family. Most of her questions were answered by the LDS missionaries and she was told that the more that she believed the more would be revealed to her. Podcast co-host Joel Groat reminds us that faith is having Jesus as the object of your faith. Faith may have you go beyond reason but will never have you go against reason.

In the book, Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message, Paul addresses LDS Missionary Lesson 3 called, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, from the missionary manual Preach My Gospel. For LDS, eternal life includes doing: faith, repentance, water baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost given by LDS priesthood, and various laws kept and temple ordinances performed as well as enduring to the end to try to reach the highest heaven (Celestial Kingdom). There is no assurance of eternal life in this life in the LDS gospel. Paul brings up some great questions. If LDS argue today their salvation is by grace, then what is the function of the LDS temple? Can anyone go in or do you have to do something to qualify? The Reformation came about when the Catholic Church offered the paying of indulgences for special privileges. Since tithing is required to enter an LDS temple where ordinances are required to strive to reach the highest LDS heaven, isn't this practice similar to what the reformers fought against? Staircases and ladders? Another difference between the LDS gospel and the gospel of the Bible is that the LDS Holy Ghost leaves someone when they sin, although his role is supposed to give one the strength to obey the commandments. But, how can a Latter-day Saint have the help of the Holy Ghost to strive to reach the Celestial Kingdom if he abandons them when they sin? Isn't that when one needs him the most? Paul discusses the LDS Holy Ghost's lack of omnipresence in Episode 46 of the Outer Brightness Podcast. His chapter in the book gives a number of dos and don'ts for witnessing to missionaries and offers scriptures they may use to teach the LDS gospel.

After his mission, Paul poured into books and journals like the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies that supposedly demonstrated evidence for the Book of Mormon. He found there wasn't really any. Looking online for a good LDS spouse, he met Angela, a new convert from the Cincinnati area. Paul soon moved to the Cincinnati area, found work, and married her in the temple. While working in health insurance, Paul tried to convert Charlotte to the LDS Church. She later returned the Book of Mormon to him and gave him a stack of papers her pastor had given her with reasons to question the LDS faith. Paul read them, began researching the various topics, and his “shelf broke.” Now not sure he even believed in God, Paul decided to simply focus on Christ but remain LDS. While driving, he began to listen to Christian radio hosts such as J. Vernon McGee, David Jeremiah, and Chip Ingram and tried to reconcile their teachings with Mormonism. He says his wonderful Christian father-in-law patiently “poured into him." Then, Paul secretly read In Sacred Loneliness about the plural wives of Joseph Smith. Angela read it as well, her shelf broke, and she longed to return to the grace-filled relationship she had known with Jesus in the evangelical church before she joined the LDS. Paul was ready. His first experience worshipping in an evangelical church made the differences between LDS and traditional Christianity palpable. Jesus was clearly the focus; Joseph Smith was not part of it. Paul was baptized unto Jesus in August of 2011 and then baptized his own son. Find him as co-host on the Outer Darkness Podcast.

Paul Nurnberg returned from his LDS mission (1997-1999) to Hungary with questions. Several Christians he met on his mission showed him that what he preached was a system of works, not compatible with saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as the New Testament taught. Ephesians 2:8-9 especially impacted Paul and he recognized this was different than what he had always understood the gospel to be. Paul came home dreaming of one day becoming an archaeologist who would find the evidence to prove to the world that the Book of Mormon and the LDS gospel was true, but was it?

Corey Miller, former LDS now Christian CEO of Ratio Christi, explains that statistically there are more believers in Jesus in the basic and fundamental sciences like math and physics than in the social sciences. Smart people do believe. Discussion touches on evidences for the reliability of the Bible. Corey recommends the book In Defense of the Bible. We refer listeners to the final chapter in our book Leaving Mormonism: Why Four Scholars Changed their Minds for reasons to believe in God and to believe His Word. Corey reminds Lynn of a debate they did together with LDS apologist James Holt on Unbelievable Radio on November 24, 2017. Jesus is the answer to the human condition.

Proverbs 21.16 says those wander from logic/sound reason will rest in the assembly of the dead. Jesus declares Himself the Logos (Greek word for logic). Therefore, God is love but God is also logic, the fountainhead of rationality. Faith is reasonable. Today's discussion with Corey Miller, former LDS now biblical Christian and CEO of the apologetics organization RatioChrist, emphasizes the fact that Christianity is a KNOWLEDGE Tradition. It was Christians who first launched the U.S. universities. However, since 1930, the universities have been largely ruled by nonbelievers in Jesus. “As goes the universities, so goes the culture. As goes the U.S. universities, so goes the world,” states Miller. So, Christians created their own universities: Biola, Moody, etc. For those under 40 today, there exist 23 liberals to each one conservative. Find Corey's article on how to reclaim the universities for Christ here: https://www.equip.org/articles/how-we-lost-the-universities-how-to-recla...

This is Part 2 with the authors of the book Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message, Corey Miller and Ross Anderson. Ross explains that although the LDS missionary manual Preach My Gospel was recently updated, none of the content has changed. When meeting with LDS missionaries, this book will prepare you in advance for what they will teach and give a biblical response. Learning the LDS gospel may help Christians understand the biblical gospel and be better able to articulate our own relationship with the living Jesus. Corey says we have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason—listen to the LDS! Five LDS may give 6 differing opinions on their beliefs. Respond to an individual's beliefs. Ask questions. In addition to Miller and Anderson's contributions, this book contains chapters from 6 former LDS missionaries now biblical Christians who also describe their experiences with Christians on their LDS missions, telling what Christians may have said or done that impacted them personally. Ross reminds us to testify to the reality and intimacy of our relationship with Jesus.

Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message is an excellent new book that covers exactly what LDS missionaries are directed to teach their investigators from their manual called Preach My Gospel. The authors, Corey Miller and Ross Anderson, explain the LDS culture (persecution-sensitive) and the LDS testimony (“Don't confuse me with facts, I have a feeling”) as a foundation for understanding the LDS people. Then, the book gives biblical responses to each of the missionary teachings. We see this book as invaluable to Christians with a heart to witness the biblical gospel to LDS missionaries telling truth in love.

MacKenzie encourages Christians: it's ok not to have all the answers for LDS friends and missionaries. Simply tell them, that's a great question. I'll research that and get back to you. This past year, MacKenzie has helped an LDS woman, Janet, in her transition from LDS faith to biblical understanding. She says at first Janet had an anxious emotional response after discovering how different LDS teachings were from biblical teachings. She needed just to be heard--to process what she was learning out loud--in a safe place with supportive friends. 

MacKenzie Jones is a young Christian woman who witnessed to LDS missionaries for 3 solid years by inviting them into her apartment, feeding them popcorn and water, playing board games with them, and discussing Scripture—both sisters and elders. She shares that she learned her own faith better through those years of getting to know the LDS and their faith. MacKenzie encourages Christians to step into conversations with LDS missionaries by simply asking questions and sharing Bible Scripture IN CONTEXT. Stick with the Bible. Love and respect them. Do not try to prove them wrong, she says. They are just kids. We discuss specific passages of Scripture LDS missionaries often bring up (they use the King James Version of the Bible) whose clarity comes through context.

The LDS church was studying the Old Testament. The LDS teaching that Eve's taking of the fruit in the garden was a “fall upward” disturbed Brad. He knew that God wanted relationship with man and that Eve's choice created a separation between God and man. When the LDS OT manual got to the part about the tabernacle, Brad knew the symbolism of the tabernacle and later the temple pointed to Jesus and that when Jesus died on the cross, there was no more need for a temple (Matt 27:51). Although while researching, he found information from ex-Mormon atheists online, Brad knew there was a God. So, when he came across the YouTube channel Hello Saints, he reached out to Pastor Jeff, who became a pastor to him as he struggled with his mom's diagnosis of brain cancer and later cared for her. Although he felt peace after giving his mom an oil anointed LDS blessing, he felt the same peace when a Christian woman prayed for his mom without the oil. Brad's mom, strong in her Christian faith, wrote a book before she died called, She Gave Me Carmel Apples (https://suevrooman.com/). After she passed, Brad dove into the Bible, using Christian commentaries and writing in the margins of his Bible; he decided the LDS gospel was way too complicated (see Romans 10:9-10). He gained an assurance his mom was in the presence of God without any LDS ordinances. His hand is not too short to save (Isaiah 59:1). Brad went to see Adam's Road, stopped wearing his LDS garments and declared this decision brought healing. Brad is in the process of giving up his LDS membership; he found a supportive Christian community. He says the best way to describe what happened to him is simply: Jesus is enough.

Brad joined the LDS church as a single man in his 30s when LDS missionaries knocked on his door. He sensed some things they taught were a little off according to his Christian upbringing but he put them aside because he saw good in the service the LDS people did for others. He did wonder why they kept asking him about his family. The first chink in his LDS faith happened when he fell behind in his tithing. He knew without it he could not go to the temple. He also wondered why the LDS “pulled out all the stops at Halloween but at Christmas, nothing.” He began to have serious questions about the LDS church when he recognized the extra-biblical teachings in the LDS lesson manual he was asked to use to teach the LDS faith to prisoners in prison ministry. He also was thoroughly confused about the differences between the LDS explanation of the events in the Garden of Eden and the Bible's telling of them.

A second miracle occurred in Brad's Mom's life (see the book She Gave Me Carmel Apples). Although she had been adopted as an infant in a closed adoption, God supernaturally connected his mother with her birth mother. Reconciliation and healing flowed for them. Brad wanted healing, too, but never really shared his sexual, drinking, or spiritual battles in a way or place that brought the deep healing he sought. He was placed in rehab and kicked the alcohol habit but was bitter about anything spiritual. Then one of the counselors challenged Brad to get up early each morning and just feed the birds. He began to reconnect with God through nature. Mike reminds us we all sin every day and quotes 1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Starting over in a new city, the LDS missionaries soon knocked on Brad's apartment door…

Brad was an only child born to a single mom, Catholic, living in public housing. When Brad was in elementary school, both he and his mother chose the simple gospel of grace. Brad had heard it through The Wordless Book by Charles Spurgeon and accepted Jesus at a Bible Club. His mom prayed with a pastor's wife and was immediately and miraculously healed from a cigarette addiction. At 14, Brad attended a Christian training program on a college campus to learn to teach the gospel in a Bible Club like he had learned it. But there, his older roommate sexually assaulted him several times. During college and after, feeling broken, Brad struggled with drinking and lived the gay lifestyle for about 10 years, questioning whether he was truly saved. Today, he said he clings to the promise in Acts 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

Gayle encourages LDS to study and learn—about LDS history, Joseph's life, and how the Bible contradicts LDS teachings. She tells two profound experiences where she felt God was directing her, just recently, into Christian ministry. To do what? To combat legalism. If you are in Christ, you have a ministry. The LDS church teaches in their Third Article of Faith, “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by the laws and ordinances of the [LDS] Gospel.” To a Bible-believing Christian, salvation by one's own works in any measure constitutes legalism and negates salvation by grace. Eventually, Gayle's entire family left the LDS church—except for one sister. Even her parents gave their lives to the biblical Jesus. Scriptures addressed in this episode: Romans 10:9, John 5:24, and Revelation 12:11.

Gayle and the Wilders discuss what the Bible says about how one becomes born again or saved. Gayle's mom was generational LDS; her father was a convert to the LDS Church out of the Baptist Church. Of their 6 children, one was a traditional Christian, the other 5 were LDS. That traditional Christian sister took 16-year-old LDS Gayle to a Christian revival in New Mexico where she was so overwhelmed by the Spirit, she went forward and gave her life to Jesus. Gayle was grateful for her one year at BYU where she realized the LDS prized their unique scriptures above the Bible. She left Mormonism and never looked back. Gayle encourages us to grab onto His garment, to grab onto Jesus alone.

At the end of the last episode, Daniel delineated what he learned by attending Christian churches and reading the Bible about the changing nature of the LDS God compared to the Invisible God who never changes. He begins this episode by discussing the Holy Spirit. Daniel thought he might never feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in biblical Christian faith, but he was surprised. Some turning points in choosing biblical faith were: 1) being humbled and filled with the Holy Spirit while reading and understanding the book of Galatians, and 2) learning more about Joseph Smith (see the devotional that impacted him by Dr. Jayson Kunzler, BYU-Idaho business management faculty member at https://www.byui.edu/devotionals/jayson-kunzler). Daniel asked himself, "Do I follow Joseph Smith or the Jesus of the Bible?" Oddly, the third thing that changed his heart and mind was 3) reading the Book of Mormon, specifically Alma 5. When everything LDS was swept away, only faith in Christ remained. Daniel was amazed, how was it possible he was closer to God after leaving the LDS Church?! He felt so much joy and peace, gaining a deeper relationship with Jesus when leaving behind all that Joseph had added.

After his LDS mission, Daniel attended Law School at BYU. He met an amazing wife, generational LDS; they were sealed in the Draper, Utah Temple and have 3 beautiful daughters. It was his wife who first began deconstructing her LDS faith when she read the 149-page Letter to My Wife. She grew up with a lot of shame associated with the LDS church from feeling she could never measure up, even though she was active and served a mission. An LDS friend shared with her what she had learned about Joseph Smith's coercive and inappropriate polygamous relationships. When his wife began attending Christian churches and heard the gospel of grace, it freed her and transformed her overnight in a way that moved Daniel to attend with her. He came to love the simple gospel of grace from Romans 8 and the way Christians worshipped God.

Daniel Ortner grew up Jewish. His grandfather died in the holocaust; his other grandparents were sent to a work camp in Siberia. In high school in South Florida, a Christian girlfriend introduced Daniel to Isaiah 53. The passage greatly piqued his interest in this suffering Messiah. However, his mother was diagnosed with cancer and Daniel became angry with God for taking her, leading him to profess atheism in college at Brandeis University where he debated Christians. But 2 years of atheism left him empty. Then the LDS missionaries found him. He joined the LDS Church at age 21 and says God spoke to him outside the Boston Temple. He served an LDS mission in the same part of Russia where his grandparents had been in a work camp (Novosibirsk, Russia). Daniel embraced the idea that man could become a god but not that God had been a man.

Daniel Ortner grew up Jewish. His grandfather died in the holocaust; his other grandparents were sent to a work camp in Siberia. In high school in South Florida, a Christian girlfriend introduced Daniel to Isaiah 53. The passage greatly piqued his interest in this suffering Messiah. However, his mother was diagnosed with cancer and Daniel became angry with God for taking her, leading him to profess atheism in college at Brandeis University where he debated Christians. But 2 years of atheism left him empty. Then the LDS missionaries found him. He joined the LDS Church at age 21 and says God spoke to him outside the Boston Temple. He served an LDS mission in the same part of Russia where his grandparents had been in a work camp (Novosibirsk, Russia). Daniel embraced the idea that man could become a god but not that God had been a man.

Although the LDS missionaries seemed to exemplify this love Lillie sought from God, she recognized that they were denying God by pursuing Him through salvation by their own works. After hearing Micah Wilder's YouTube testimony (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0mckI8Xfl8), she realized salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ alone, not through any special church, ordinance, or priesthood power. The moment this grace-message clicked, her heart was changed, her eyes opened, and she received the baptism of fire. Lillie read in Acts that the Holy Spirit came by an act of God; God did not require LDS priesthood. Discovering, miraculously, that she lived in the same town as the former LDS missionary whose now Christian testimony had helped point her to the Truth, Lillie connected with members of the Adam's Road ministry. Lillie's Christian mom returned home to Texas praising God. And, Lillie developed a heart to witness to LDS. She is now a valued member of the very ministry, Adam's Road, that helped her see that salvation came by grace through faith in Christ and that Jesus was enough.

The night before her scheduled baptism into the LDS Church, Lillie's Christian mom and her friend's mom tried through the night to talk her out of joining. Lillle felt attacked and interrogated but agreed to delay her LDS baptism. Who to trust, the LDS missionaries or her mom? She knew the answers she sought were in the Bible but how to find them? The next day they all attended Lillie's friend Trevor's baptism into the LDS Church. She was surprised that the focus there was on Joseph Smith not Jesus; there was no cross in the building! That afternoon, her mother wanted her to watch some videos and the missionaries wanted her to talk with Mormons. In desperation, she turned to God in prayer, “Help me to know You. I want to hear what You want to say to me.” Then her mom found Micah Wilder's testimony online and Lillie was spellbound by this undeserved love of God he spoke of and by this simple gospel of grace (Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us). Lillie was broken and knew that Jesus was enough. She did not need to belong to a particular church to be saved.

The LDS missionaries asked Lillie, “What do you believe about Jesus?” These missionaries seemed so zealous, so passionate, so genuine in their faith, she and another young man in the apartment complex began taking the missionary discussions. A month later, they both committed to be baptized into the LDS Church. Lillie knew nothing about LDS history or Joseph Smith, she hadn't read the Bible, so, she explains, she didn't even know what to ask the missionaries. The night before her LDS baptism, her Christian mom surprised her by flying in from Texas. The discussion began at midnight. Lillie was angry at her family. Didn't they understand she was seeking faith in God by joining the LDS Church?

Lillie was raised Christian in Texas in a family whose lives were centered around softball. She tried to read the Bible but, after starting in Genesis, she never really got anywhere. Lillie's Dad, her dearest friend and softball coach, passed away suddenly before Lillie's freshman year. She was lost--couldn't see past her heartache--and was angry with God. Could Lillie ease her grief and maybe please her deceased father by leading his softball team to a state championship in his name? After high school, Lillie pursued college at Disney to learn hospitality. She had sweet childhood memories there and felt Disney represented the kindness and joy she so desperately sought to feel in her life. In January of 2021, she moved to Florida looking to find a community where she felt comfortable and loved. Her best friend from high school was already living in Florida—in the same apartment building where the LDS missionaries gave neighborhood barbecues. And Lillie went.