Podcasts about better birth

In this episode I chat to osteopath Nicolas Grimaldi, about the power of osteopathy and how he helps resolve birth injuries and issues with babies who have experienced traumatic births. We discuss what osteopathy is, how the over medicalisation of birth, use of instruments and c-sections can have unintended and little discussed knock on effects with feeding, comfort and mobility of babies, and how we could learn so much from other cultures' innate understanding of babies and massage. Nicolas Romulus Grimaldi is the founder of ONE OSTEO. He graduated in 2007 after 6 years of full-time studies at ATMAN, one of the oldest French osteopathic colleges. He is a passionate osteopath and entrepreneur, recognised for his work on immune system disorders through the ISD method. His passion and love for paediatric osteopathy, his work on pregnant women and reproductive disorders, along with his team have finally sealed the great reputation of ONE OSTEO around SEA and beyond.  You can follow Nicolas on instagram at https://www.instagram.com/niconeosteo/Erin Fung is a birth educator and activist, providing classes and support to anyone wanting an informed and positive birth. Her courses can be found www.better-birth.co.uk or on all social media channels @betterbirthukDisclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

The Big Baby Trial study has been published,and are already being used to justify inductions at 38 weeks... but what did the study ACTUALLY show? I chat to doula Samantha Gadsden about this study, and why despite it being touted as evidence for early inductions, the results actually show the opposite!You can find the study here: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(25)00162-X/fulltextSamantha (Sam) Gadsden is one of the UK's leading doulas, specialising in home birth, freebirth, and virtual support. With over a decade of experience, she is renowned for empowering families through pregnancy, birth, and beyond, championing the sacred nature of birth and the right to self-advocacy. As an outspoken activist, she has led campaigns against obstetric violence and supported countless families facing domestic abuse, social services involvement, and trauma.Samantha runs a thriving online community for parents, mentors birth professionals, and regularly contributes to media discussions on birth and parenting. She is the former co-host of The Birth Activist podcast and is soon launching her new podcast The Village Wise Woman. Deeply rooted in her belief in community and spirituality, Samantha uses her work to ensure that those who cannot afford her services are still able to access the care they deserve. Sam's home birthsupport group can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/homebirthsupportuk/ and she can be found on instagram at https://www.instagram.com/samanthagadsdendoulaErin Fung is a birth educator and activist, providing classes and support to anyone wanting an informed and positive birth. Her courses can be found www.better-birth.co.uk or on all social media channels @betterbirthukDisclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

I welcome the fabulous midwife Kelly back on to the podcast for the low down on growth charts and scans! We discuss what a growth chart is and why we measure baby's size, the different types of "small babies", why some may be cause for concern and others not at all, big babies and why they may not be so scary, and inaccuracies of fundal height measurements, scans and plotting averages on charts. Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

In this episode of The Lamaze Podcast, host Tanya Cawthorne, LCCE, FACCE, sits down with Dr. Hazel Keedle, Ph.D., a senior lecturer at Western Sydney University and a leading expert in midwifery. Dr. Keedle shares insights from over 20 years in the field, discussing her research on vaginal birth after caesarean (VBAC), birth trauma, and maternity experiences. She talks about her journey to earning her Ph.D. and writing her book “Birth After Caesarean”, while offering accessible advice for women seeking VBAC. Dr. Keedle also shares her top three tips for a successful VBAC, which align with Lamaze's Six Healthy Birth Practices. Dr. Hazel Keedle, Ph.D., is a senior lecturer of midwifery at The School of Nursing and Midwifery, Western Sydney University. Hazel has more than two decades of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. Hazel's research interests are vaginal birth after caesarean, birth trauma, and maternity experiences explored primarily using feminist mixed methodologies. Hazel's work is recognized nationally and internationally, with many invited conference and seminar presentations including academic publications and a book for women based on her Ph.D. findings “Birth After Caesarean”. Hazel is the lead researcher on Australia's largest maternity experiences survey, The Birth Experience Study.   Episode Links https://www.lamaze.org/ | https://learn.lamaze.org/ | https://www.lamaze.org/LCCE | Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle | What Women Want If They Were to Have Another Baby: The Australian Birth Experience Study (BESt) Cross-sectional National Survey | Parliament of New South Wales — Select Committee on Birth Trauma | New South Wales. Parliament. Legislative Council. Select Committee on Birth Trauma. Report No. 1. (May, 2024) Black Birthing Initiative https://chcimpact.org/chc-black-birthing-initiative/ | Black Birthing Initiative Survey

I chat to client Anna about why she chose to do a hypnobirthing course with me, her VBAC journey navigating the NHS maternity system, and what happened when she gave birth! Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

I chat to doula Caz Sayles about how she started in doula work, what the role of the doula is (and isn't!) and the highs and lows of birth work. You can find Caz at https://www.cazsayles.co.uk or on Instagram and Facebook at @cazsayles_doula Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content. Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

We are back with a super informative episode with Clare Bourne, a friend, specialist pelvic health physiotherapist and author of strong foundations. Clare shares why loving your pelvic floor truly leads to a better birthing experience and why so many women miss it! We also delve into how society has taught us to disconnect from the pelvic floor and how we can reconnect with our bodies! This podcast is sponsored by The Wave Comb for birth https://www.thewavecomb.co.uk and Her9 https://her9.co.uk Credits: Host: @thenakeddoulaofficial Guest: Clare Borne @clarebournephysio www.clare-Bourne.com  Recorded at Mount Street Studios, Nottingham. Engineering - Matt Robinson Editing - Charlie Kirby-Cavell DOP/Colour - Jay Sanderson - @jaysndrsn

Series One: Birth Trauma Episode Three: Maternity experiences, birth trauma and the BESt study with Dr Hazel Keedle In this episode we chat with the awesome Dr Hazel Keedle. We dive deep into the background of and findings from The Birth Experience Study (BESt) and how it has contributed to and informed The NSW Parliamentary Inquiry into Birth Trauma. Dr Hazel Keedle is a Senior Lecturer of Midwifery and Director of Academic Midwifery Programs at the School of Nursing and Midwifery, Western Sydney University. Hazel has experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, she's also an educator, and a researcher. Her research interests are vaginal birth after caesarean, birth trauma, and maternity experiences, which she explores primarily using feminist mixed methodologies. Dr Keedle is the author of the book "Birth after Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth," which is based on her PhD findings. Dr. Keedle is also the lead researcher on the largest Australian maternity experiences survey, The Birth Experience Study (BESt) and the BESt International Collaboration. Here are the papers discussed: Pelak, H., Dahlen, H.G. & Keedle, H. A content analysis of women's experiences of different models of maternity care: the Birth Experience Study (BESt). BMC Pregnancy Childbirth 23, 864 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12884-023-06130-2 Keedle, H. & Dahlen, H. G. (2023). Incorporating co-design principles and social media strategies to enhance cross-sectional online survey participation: The Birth Experience Study. Journal of Nursing Scholarship, 00, 1–10. https://doi.org/10.1111/jnu.12945 Keedle, H., Lockwood, R., Keedle, W., Susic, D., & Dahlen, H. G. (2023). What women want if they were to have another baby: the Australian Birth Experience Study (BESt) cross-sectional national survey. BMJ open, 13(9), e071582. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmjopen-2023-071582 Keedle, H., Keedle, W., & Dahlen, H. G. (2022). Dehumanized, Violated, and Powerless: An Australian Survey of Women's Experiences of Obstetric Violence in the Past 5 Years. Violence Against Women, 0(0). https://doi.org/10.1177/10778012221140138 Keedle, H., & Willo, P. (2022). A Poetic Inquiry of Traumatic Birth Through Bearing Witness. Qualitative Inquiry, 28(8-9), 938-945. https://doi.org/10.1177/10778004221093424 Links Dr Hazel KeedleInstagram: www.instagram.com/hazelkeedleInstagram: www.instagram.com/hazelkeedlevbacresearcherTwitter: @HazelKeedle Birth TimeWebsite: www.birthtime.worldInstagram: www.instagram.com/birthtimeworldFacebook: www.facebook.com/birthtimeworld JerushaWebsite: www.jerusha.com.auInstagram: www.instagram.com/jerushasuttonFacebook: www.facebook.com/jerushasuttonphotography JoWebsite: www.midwifejo.com.auInstagram: www.instagram.com/midwifejohunterFacebook: www.facebook.com/MidwifeJo BIRTH TIME GIFT CARD: www.birthtime.world/watch-nowTHE HANDBOOK: www.birthtime.world/the-handbookMERCH: www.birthtime.world/shop Enjoying the podcast? Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thanks for listening, we appreciate every single one of you.

Today I chat to Erin Fung of Better Birth UK (https://www.better-birth.co.uk/). Erin is a neurodivergent mum of 3, an antenatal educator, hypnobirthing teacher and guest lecturer on the midwifery course at Greenwich University.Today we talk about her own experience of the postnatal time, her perspective on neurodivergent experiences of induction and how to prepare for an induction process. The blog post the Erin refers to regarding your right to record appointments can be accessed here.Thank you for listening!Join the conversation on Instagram @neurodivergentbirth and at ndbirth.com.

I have for you today Dr Hazel Keedle who is a Senior Lecturer of Midwifery at The School of Nursing and Midwifery at Western Sydney University. Hazel has more than two decades of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator and researcher. Hazel's research interests are vaginal birth after caesarean, birth trauma and maternity experiences explored primarily using mixed methodologies. Hazel's work is recognised nationally and internationally, with many invited conference and seminar presentations including academic publications and a book for women based on her PhD findings ‘Birth after Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth'. Hazel is the lead researcher on the largest maternity experiences survey, The Birth Experience Study.    She starts by discussing the 4 factors that will impact the birth experience, and how we can ensure we create the best possible conditions for birth to unfold. Hazel looked at the experiences of women attempting to have a VBAC. She assumed the most important part of their experience would be pushing a baby out of their vagina. Instead what she discovered were 4 important factors that directly influenced how they felt about their birth experience. She then goes on to share with us some of the evidence around the risks of VBAC and the real risks of uterine rupture.  and leaves us with some very encouraging advice. This is a fabulous episode for those women planning a VBAC. or any woman who wants to appreciate the conditions necessary to have a good birth experience, regardless of what unfolds on the day. Position Senior Lecturer, School of Nursing and Midwifery Research Interests Birth trauma Midwifery Pregnancy, birth and postnatal period Vaginal birth after caesarean (VBAC)   Links: Transform Parenting website Transform Your Birth Today Better Birth: Mini Gift Free resource: Medical Necessity vs Choice  

This week I am joined by NHS Midwife Laura Green who talks to us all about the meaty topic of VBAC! You can visit Laura's website here. The book mentioned by Laura in the episode is Birth After Caesarean; Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. Click here to join The Hypnobirthing Tool Kit Click here to get my guide to Post-Partum healing --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ellie-waddington/message

Special guest Erin Fung joins us today and talks all about the MASSIVE topic of induction. Erin teaches Hypnobirthing at Better Birth and also has an amazing, informative podcast too called The Better Birth Podcast. The Hypnobirthing Tool Kit is an online self-paced Hypnobirthing and antenatal course for mums-to-be who are ready to ditch their fears and anxieties and go into the birth of their baby with confidence and positivity. Click here to get the Tool Kit If you've enjoyed this free content and would like to support the work that I do, please buy me a coffee xx --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ellie-waddington/message

In this week's episode I chat to Ashley Winning, a doula, birth educator, fellow podcaster and mum of 3. Ashley talks about her 2 unplanned c-sections, and why she chose to freebirth at home with her third child. We chat special scars, posterior birth, risks and benefits of an HBAC, and the importance of intuition. It's an important episode for anyone hoping for a vaginal birth after a caesarean!If you want to contact Ashley for support with your VBAC or HBAC you can find her at https://ashleywinning.com or on instagram at https://www.instagram.com/ashleylwinning/ Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

Emma's back! I chat to the Naked Doula about the birth of her second child. Whilst the birth didn't take the path she had hoped and dreamed of, Emma's story is one of tenacity, faith, instinct, intuition and power, and demonstrates the importance of knowing yourself, your body, and your options. This story is raw, emotional and inspirational. Thank you so much Emma for your vulnerability and authenticity sharing such a powerful birth story! We also talk about Emma's new book, the Fearless Birth Book, which is available to buy at https://geni.us/FearlessBirthBook Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

"just hop on the bed" "I'll be back in 10 mins to monitor baby" "I can't hear baby well so we'll just pop on this CTG"... They're common occurrences in a hospital birth, but even the most well prepared birther can have their birth re-railed by seemingly innocuous circumstances. I chat to doula Georgie about the common things that can derail your plans for a vaginal birth if you're planning to birth in hospital. Georgie is doula in Oxfordshire, who home educates he rtwo older children and has a new baby. She fell into being a doula because she loves information sharing, and discussing both evidence and intuition about pregnancy, birth, post partum and parenting with families. Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

Listen to this clip from The Chris & Amy Show where they're joined by Missouri State Representative Tara Peters who joins to discuss a Bill that would give better access to birth control for women in Missouri.

A key component to having an empowering birth experience is advocacy. Your voice should be at the center of your care ALWAYS. And advocating for what you want really matters. Unfortunately, the medical culture in the USA is not great about ensuring folks consent to different interventions or procedures, especially during childbirth. In today's episode, I am going to share a personal story about an instance that happened to me in a medical setting all the information you should know about making informed consent or refusal during pregnancy, birth, and beyond. In this episode, we dive into the following:What you need to know about your right to informed consentWhat informed consent and refusal really meanHow power dynamics play out in a medical systemTips to make advocacy much easier during laborDon't forget to check out the blog postResources mentioned:>>  A Path to A Powerful Birth Class>>  FREE Birth Plan Template>>  Clear Your Birth Fears Guide***If these topics light you up, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening.After you review the show - snap a pic and upload it here - and I'll send you a little surprise as a thank you.Your feedback helps this podcast grow, and I am so grateful for your support!Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. Consult with a qualified healthcare professional for personalized advice.

I chat to Maddie McMahon, doula, doula trainer and breast-feeding counsellor, about the history of the doula role and what the skills and training doulas receive. We chat about the differences and overlap between midwives and doulas, the value a doula can bring to the perinatal period for a pregnant person and their family, and how their roles have evolved over the years to the current modern day. Maddie is a mother and step mother to 3 children, doula and breastfeeding counsellor of 20 years, and founder of Developing Doulas, a doula training company. She's the author of the Pinter and Martin books "Why doulas matter" and " Why mothering matters" and is also a founder and trustee of two breastfeeding support charities. You can find Maddie at https://developingdoulas.co.uk/ Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

We often focus so much on the birthing person's experience of birth, but we forget that birth involves two people... and what about the baby? I chat to ex-midwife, birth keeper and wise woman Joy Horner about how baby's experience birth, and the impact this can have on an emotional, neurological and cellular level. Joy was a midwife for 21 years, and worked 16 years as an Independent homebirth midwife. She now works as a Sacred Birthkeeper, Perinatal Consultant, and Wise Woman. You can find Joy at https://birthjoy.co.uk/. You can find the books Joy mentions here: https://www.breathandinspiration.com/store/c6/Being_Born.html and the course she took here https://conscious-embodiment.co.uk/aboutus/overview/ Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

Giving birth is a pivotal time in a birthing person's life, but it's often overshadowed by the focus that's put on either being pregnant or the new baby. Baby showers, maternity photo shoots, and setting up the nursery seem to outshine the preparations for the actual labor and birth, although every person who has ever given birth knows how impactful that process is. In Kumbay'all episode 61 Amanda and Rebecca share the highlights of their homebirth stories and the key things they learned along the way. In this episode Amanda and Rebecca discuss: Their homebirth stories and how all three were different What they wish they considered when selecting a midwife Who they would have added to their birth team Misconceptions that they had (and most women have!) What they would have done differently We hope this episode provides helpful tips, insight, and encouragement to you. And we hope that sharing our birth stories helps you in your journey!  If you enjoyed this episode please share it, leave a review, and subscribe to the podcast. We love hearing from you and we appreciate your support! About Your Hosts: We're Amanda and Rebecca - twin sisters, naturally-minded homebirth mamas, and co-founders of Progressive Pregnancy. We're on a mission to help you have a more empowered entrance into motherhood. Amanda Shipley, PT, DPT, MTC is the founder of Renew Pelvic Health in Atlanta, GA, and has been a physical therapist for more than 20 years. For the last 17 years Amanda has focused on helping patients prevent and heal pelvic floor issues. Her mission is to change the standard of care so that pelvic physical therapy is a part of a complete wellness strategy, like going to the dentist. Amanda is passionate about preventing pelvic floor issues and supporting her patients through the life transitions that we know affect the pelvic floor so strongly - pregnancy, postpartum, perimenopause/menopause, and before/after surgery. Rebecca Squires is a management consultant who helps healthcare entrepreneurs improve operations, build their team, and grow their practice in a sustainable way. She volunteers with a local animal rescue and is on the board of a non-profit homeschool organization that serves the metro Atlanta area. hello@kumbayallpodcast.com - Let us know what you thought of this episode! @kumbayall on Instagram Birth Mindset Mastery - Download our FREE training on how to prepare for childbirth pain with one simple move! Progressive Pregnancy - Discover the best way to prepare for childbirth so you can feel calm and confident giving birth at home. Join our online program to get immediate access today! @progressive.pelvic.ed on Instagram or Facebook Renew Pelvic Health - Amanda's practice in Atlanta, GA @renewpelvichealth on Instagram or Facebook

In this episode of The Autistic Culture Podcast:Hosts, Dr. Angela Lauria and Matt Lowry, LPP, discuss the challenges that autistic AFAB people face during pregnancy and childbirth.The biggest struggle with being autistic and pregnant is not realizing that your needs are not being met.There is very little information and research available on pregnancy and autism. Autistic people have unique needs and heightened sensitivities during pregnancy that often go unrecognized and unaccommodated.Angela shares about her severe morning sickness throughout pregnancy, her list of safe foods dwindling to just two semi-safe foods, and how she didn't experience the “woo woo” connection to the fetus that other women described. Instead, she described it feeling like a "football-sized tumor."She faced criticism from others for not having a "typical" pregnancy experience and was abandoned by her care provider for asking questions like, “Why are you doing this very painful thing?” Many allistics (including doctors) expect autistic people to comfort them by masking even during major physical and hormonal changes.Our study found that women with ASD face unique challenges during childbirth that differ from those of neurotypical women. Participants often felt belittled, ignored, and uninformed about the care they received and being placed at the center of attention was often seen as negative and hindering rather than positive.Giving birth in hospitals can be problematic - high rates of medical interventions are pushed to maximize profits. Things like due dates, pitocin drips, epidurals and C-sections often happen by default regardless of the pregnant person's birth plan. Angela ended up with an epidural that didn't work and an unplanned C-section.Working with a doula helped Angela feel prepared through detailed explanations of what would happen, why, and when. This helped mitigate anxiety and trauma from medical interventions.The hosts emphasizes the need for community, story sharing, and trauma-informed care around pregnancy and birth for autistic people. Self-understanding and identity is key in advocating for one's needs.What was your Autistic experience of being pregnant? Tell us in the comments and use #AutisticCultureCatch to share your answer on your social media and connect with other listeners!Article: Autism, pregnancy and childbirthVideo: Autistic Pregnancy: How I copedArticle: Autistic and pregnantStudy: Pregnancy in autistic women and social medical considerationsPlay script: Birth By Karen BrodyBook: Pregnancy Childbirth and the Newborn: The Complete Guide by Penny Simkin Book: The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth by Henci Goer More episodes…Episode 14: Autistic Medical NeedsEpisode 20: Sesame Street is AutisticEpisode 56: Lessons in Chemistry is AutisticReady for a paradigm shift that empowers Autistics? Help spread the news!Find us on InstagramGive us 5 stars on Apple podcasts and SpotifyLearn more about Matt at Matt Lowry, LPPMatt's socials: Autistic Connections Facebook GroupLearn more about Angela at AngelaLauria.com and Difference PressAngela's socials: Twitter and TikTokTACP's TeePublic merch shop This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.autisticculturepodcast.com/subscribe

Tearing! It's something we all worry about when it comes to birth, but what happens if you DO experience a tear? I chat to independent midwife Abigail Latif, and women health physio Beth Sutcliffe, about how tears are identified and treated. We discuss what to expect immediately after giving birth, how your tear may be fixed, and why and when to see a women's health physio, as well as the common complaints postnatally after a tear. Abigail is an Independent midwife and founder of maternal matters. Nhs midwife for over 10 years IM for 1 year. She practices independently now in Manchester, and her. previous experience is in community midwifery, home & birth center births. At her north Manchester studio she works with other maternal businesses & local community to provide a holistic maternal timetable for others and their babies, includes Hypnobirthing, Pilates, bio mechanics, pop up workshops and my passion breastfeeding support. She is also a mural free lance artist & birth activist. Beth is a women's health physio at the Mum Physio and is based in Middleton, North Manchester. She trained as a Physiotherapist at the University of Liverpool in 2013, and established TheMumPhysio after working six years in the NHS and two years privately. She treats women of all ages with women's health related conditions, and she specialises in supporting women during their pregnancies, postpartum and beyond to help regain control and confidence. She is passionate about educating and informing women about Pelvic Health and often does educational talks at local groups. Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

Breathing is something we all do naturally and instinctively, but does how we breathe matter during pregnancy and particularly during birth? I chat to doula and biomechanics expert Shellie Poulter about how breathing techniques we teach in hypnobirthing actually affect not only how we're feeling, but the biomechanics effects on muscle, tissue, pelvic floor and labour itself. We chat coached pushing and why it's harmful, the different breathing techniques and how they differ, and what exactly is happening to you and your body during pregnancy and birth. If you want to give Shellie a follow you can find her on social media https://www.instagram.com/theserenitydoula/ Disclaimer: The information and provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute medical or legal advice; instead, all information available on this site are for general informational purposes only. We reserve the right to supplement, change or delete any information at any time. The information and materials on the podcast is provided "as is"; no representations are made that the content is error-free. Whilst we have tried to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information we do not warrant or guarantee the accurateness. All liability with respect to actions taken or not taken based on the content of the podcast are hereby expressly disclaimed. Your use of content contained in or linked to this podcast is entirely at your own risk. The Better Birth podcast accepts no liability for any loss or damage howsoever arising out of the use or reliance on the content.

We are following up on last week's informative episode on gestational diabetes with a gestational diabetes VBAC story! Samantha's first labor ended in a traumatic Cesarean with her first baby, but she didn't find out many details of what happened to her until she requested her operative report months later. Samantha found out that she had a lateral scar extension. Despite this and other odds that felt stacked against her (i.e. her gestational diabetes diagnosis!), Samantha was determined to do absolutely everything in her power to put her in the best position to achieve her VBAC. And she DID!Additional LinksLeslee Flannery's InstagramNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Timestamp Topics2:18 Review of the Week6:32 Samantha's first birth story  9:37 Scheduled induction13:04 Complete dilation, pushing, and stalling15:49 C-section22:15 Official reason for C-section25:15 Recovery26:57 Second pregnancy42:46 Labor52:34 Feeling pushy55:42 “You're not going to need a C-section today.” 1:02:39 Finding supportive providers1:05:53 Prep tips for listenersMeagan: Hello, hello you guys. It is likely a cold winter morning or afternoon. At least here in Utah, it's February and I don't know. It's not something that was intentional, but it seems like this month we are talking about gestational diabetes. We talked about it last week and coincidentally enough, the story today that we are recording talks about gestational diabetes today. So I'm excited to dive more into that and talk a little bit more about that. We were talking about this just before we started recording. It's becoming more common but it's not talked about enough so it's probably fitting that we are doing two episodes this month on gestational diabetes. We have a really great story for you today. We have a C-section that was begun with an induction then she got a double-whammy with an asynclitic and a posterior baby. I'm really excited to hear what your diagnosis was on that, Samantha, because I always get so curious when we know we had fetal positioning if we get that CPD diagnosis and things like that. 2:18 Review of the Week But of course, we have a Review of the Week so I'm going to share this and then we will dive right into Samantha's story. This was by lindseybrynneohara. Shoot. I always butcher names. It says, “An invaluable resource. I found The VBAC Link shortly after my first daughter was born via Cesarean after a planned birth center birth. My second turned home-birth Cesarean as well. I have found a home in a CBAC (Cesarean Birth After Cesarean).” You guys, for everyone that doesn't know this, if you've had a Cesarean birth after a Cesarean, please know that we have a group for you too. We know that sometimes after not having a vaginal birth, it can be hard to be in a VBAC group, so we have created this Cesarean birth after Cesarean group and it's amazing. She says, “I've found a home in the CBAC group these ladies put together. It helped me through some dark days of postpartum and processing my unplanned repeat Cesarean. You can find VBAC groups all over the place now, but a group for those mamas who are grieving the loss of their VBAC, they can't find. Not so much. This is a very special group where I feel completely supported, heard, and respected for a birth I sometimes struggle to call mine and my baby's. I am now diving into all of the VBAC after two Cesarean and VBAC after multiple Cesarean content from over the years and I am finding so much comfort and hope in these brave women who have come before me. I just have this strong feeling I will get to be one of them.” Ooh, that just gave me the chills. “I hope to share my story with you when that day comes. I'm learning so much about birth and myself as a birthing woman. I thought I was informed for the first time, but there are so many layers of understanding past births and planning for future births especially when C-section is involved. Thank you for the well-researched evidence-based content and special stories.” Wow. That review literally gave me chills and made me emotional. You guys, when Julie and I– Samantha can see my eyes. No one else can, but really, they are tearing up. When Julie and I created this group and this podcast and this course, this is why we did it– to help people feel exactly how she was describing. To feel loved, to feel heard, to find a place of education, and to understand that you're not alone because sometimes it can feel so lonely. Just so lonely. So thank you for that review. I am literally crying. Thank you for that review from the bottom of my heart. As you can see and as you know, we love reviews. They truly make everything that we do. It warms our hearts. It helps people just like you find this podcast. It helps people find the course so they can find the information and it helps people find that Facebook group. You can leave it on Google. You can leave it on Apple Podcasts. You can leave it on social media. You can leave it on Facebook. Message us. Wherever. If you love The VBAC Link and you have something to share, please let us know because we absolutely from the bottom of our hearts love it. 6:32 Samantha's first birth story Meagan: Okay, Samantha. Now that I'm trying to soak back up the tears that wanted to flow, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Sorry for being so vulnerable here. Samantha: No. Meagan: Wow. That just touched my heart. But now that I can see the screen again, I would just love to turn the time over to you. And also, thank you for being here with us. Samantha: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. This is my second goal after getting a VBAC. I need to be on The VBAC Link's podcast. Meagan: Oh. Samantha: But same thing as the review was saying, it's an invaluable resource. I had no clue what I didn't know going into my first birth, 100%. My story starts in 2020, I guess. I found out I was pregnant in August on my birthday, actually, I found out. Meagan: Happy birthday to you!Samantha: That was so exciting. My pregnancy went super well. I had a bit of leg pain at some point, but I was seeing a pelvic floor physio. She fixed me up really well and everything was perfect. I had an anterior placenta so I learned a little bit about that, but it shouldn't have been a problem so it was fine. I was due May 7. That was the due date that they gave me. I don't think it was necessarily accurate. I think I was due a little bit later. I think the 11th or 12th. I was tracking ovulation and stuff like that. So at 39+5, I had my doctor's appointment. He sent me for a growth ultrasound. Had I known what I know now, I would have said, “Nope. No, thank you.” 8:19 Blurry vision and feeling offBut he was estimated at being 7 pounds, 10 ounces. Then the week after, Tuesday night, I had this weird episode I want to call it. I was sitting on the couch and all of a sudden, my vision got blurry. I ended up with a headache and I was waiting to see if I should go in or not. I felt off. In the end, I went into labor and delivery because it was the height of COVID. I didn't want to go to the emergency room and all of my symptoms had subsided by then. They thought it was an optical migraine. He said, “Look. We can't do anything for you. You're having some contractions. Nothing crazy.” I wasn't feeling anything, so they were like, “Look. You have your doctor's appointment tomorrow. Just talk with them.” Meagan: Talk to them there. Samantha: Yeah. So the next day I went in and he was like, “Oh, it was probably just an optical migraine. You're fine now, so whatever.” Meagan: I've actually never heard of that. Samantha: Right? Meagan: Optimal– Samantha: Optical, like in your eyes. Meagan: Optical. Interesting. Samantha: Strange. But it put me a little bit on edge so that's why I'm telling that part of the story. Meagan: Yeah, set the story. Samantha: He told me, “You're almost 41 weeks. It means you're overdue.” I'm like, “Okay.” He's like, ”The rate of stillbirth goes way up now.” I was like, “Oh, jeez.” Of course, that puts fear right into your heart.9:37 Scheduled inductionHe's like, “We're going to schedule the induction. It's going to go great. It's going to be amazing. You're going to have your baby in the next few days.” He's like, “Look. We're really booked next week so I'll set you for Thursday. Thursday, first thing in the morning, come in.” They call me. They were like, “We are ready for you.” I got there at 9:00 AM. The plan was to put a Foley bulb in, but the doctor who was on rotation at that time came in and said, “You're already 2 centimeters. It's not worth doing the Foley bulb at this point. We're just going to start you on some Pitocin if that's okay with you.” I was like, “Okay. Whatever you say. I trust you. You are a doctor.” Had I known. Anyway, we stayed in that room until 5:00 PM that night because they didn't have a room to start Pit yet. So from 9:00 AM until 5:00 PM, I was just sitting there having random contractions that I never felt and wishing. I had a gut feeling. I told my husband, “We shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be induced. This is not what I want to do.” Meagan: Oh really? Samantha: But I didn't know I could leave. I didn't know that it was a thing. Meagan: Women of Strength, it's a thing. It's a thing. You do not have to be there. Samantha: There was nothing abnormal about the baby's heartrate. There was nothing going on. They did a mini ultrasound just to check his position. He was head down. That's all I knew really. I was at a -2 station. I was 60% effaced, 2 centimeters. Everything was fine. My body was fine. He was fine. We started Pit at 5:00 PM, but they were ramping it up quite quickly. I wasn't feeling anything at this point. Meagan: They took forever and then ramped it up. Samantha: Yeah, they were like, “Hello, welcome.” Finally, they broke my waters the next morning at 6:00 AM. Meagan: Do you know what dilation or what station you were at that point? Samantha: I was around 3.5 centimeters at that point. Meagan: Okay.Samantha: Yeah. They were like, “You've progressed a little bit, but you are not moving fast enough for us.” Okay, cool.Meagan: Oh, so they broke the water real early. Samantha: Yeah, because they checked me at 1:00 AM and he said that baby was still too high to break the waters so he was like, “Okay, we will wait until the morning.” I was still the same dilation so he was like, “Okay, let's do this.” I was like, “Okay, whatever you say.” They did that, and then all of a sudden, the contractions got real. 100% real. So by 10:30, I decided to get the epidural because they were messing with the Pitocin like crazy. They kept upping it. My contractions were back-to-back. I had no break. It was insane. I was like, “What is this? I can't survive this.” Meagan: Yeah. Samantha: I was 5 centimeters at that point and I was like, “I still have halfway to go. That's a lot.” I got the epidural and my nurse was really fantastic actually. She got the peanut ball for me, put me in the bed, was rotating me every 30 minutes. She was actually my biggest happiness point. She was amazing.  Then my doctor, my actual OB wasn't on call that weekend and he had left a note in my file saying that if I gave birth while he was there he wanted to attend because he had seen me since I was 18. We had this really good relationship. So he came to see me and he was like, “I'm leaving for the weekend. Good luck. I'll try to come visit you after the baby's born.” I was like, “Okay, bye. I wish you had been there, but you know, Cest la vie.” 13:04 Complete dilation, pushing, and stallingMeagan: Yeah. Samantha: so then at 4:30 PM I was complete. It went pretty quickly from 10:30 to 4:30. I had done the rest of the remaining 10 centimeters, but they said the baby was still quite high, so they gave me two hours to labor down. Well, they said two hours. It ended up being about three. Then there was a change in staff and that's when things stopped going well, unfortunately. My nurse had to leave. She said her son's birthday was the next day. I was like, “No, don't leave.” She was like, “I was asked to do overtime, but I really have to go.” I was like, “I get it. Go ahead.” So then this new nurse comes in with a student doctor, a medical student of some sort. It's blurry because I was at 10 centimeters and ready to push, but things were really awkward between this nurse and the doctor. He wanted to get in there and help and she was like, “No, this is my job,” so he left and then he came back and he was like, “I was told I have to be here.” She was like, “Okay, fine,” so she came and sat next to my head and let him do whatever he had to do. You know, that type of thing. But it was super uncomfortable in the room. Meagan: Weird. Samantha: Yeah, it was so weird and I was so uncomfortable. Anyways, so then I started pushing and they told me his station was about +1 or +2, but he never moved in the hour that I was pushing. He stopped tolerating when I was on my right side near the end. Meagan: Didn't like that. Samantha: Yeah. I had horrible heartburn too. I felt like I was going to throw up fire. So fun. So finally, we pushed for an hour. The doctor on call came in, didn't even look at me almost, didn't really introduce herself, nothing and just said, “C-section.”Meagan: Whoa. Samantha: I was like, “Excuse me?” At that point, I had a bit of a fever. They gave me Tylenol. They said it could have just been from being in labor and from pushing. I was like, “Okay, whatever you say if that's normal.” They were like, “But we have to get you to a C-section now,” because he had a decel for 4 minutes at 70 beats per minute. They were nervous. At this point, the medical student had his fingers inside rubbing the baby's head to get him back. Meagan: Yeah, sometimes they do have to stimulate the baby. Samantha: Yeah. Between every push, he was doing that. Then this one was the final, I guess, they called it there. It was really strange. She's calling a C-section. She was like, “I'm going to call the doctor.” I'm not sure if she meant the OB or the surgeon. She goes off. The nurse is still getting me to push. I'm like, “How is this an emergency if I'm still pushing?” I was so confused. Meagan: Baby's heart rate returned at this point, I assume. Samantha: Yes, exactly. It was just very strange. 15:49 C-sectionSamantha: Anyways, so then they wheel me down to the OR. We had to go to the regular operating room because they only have certain hours during the day from 9:00 to 5:00 which I guess is when they do the special delivery OR. Meagan: Interesting. Samantha: Yeah and it was a Friday night, so we went to the regular OR. The nurse and the anesthesiologist were amazing. They took pictures and stuff like that before. They gave me the spinal, then my husband was allowed to come in while they were doing the test cut. I didn't feel anything so he was allowed in. Meagan: It worked, yeah. Samantha: Yeah. They didn't tell me much during the surgery at all. I don't even remember meeting the actual surgeon other than them saying, “This is so and so. He's going to do your surgery. He's great. Don't worry about it.” I was like, “Okay. Do what you've got to do.” I never heard from this man ever again. He didn't come to see me post-op. Meagan: Stop, really? Samantha: I don't know who this person was, really. The person who cut into my body never came to talk to me after. I had no clue what happened. Anyway, so it seemed to go pretty routinely. He was pulled out at 9:13 PM. He was 7 pounds, 10 ounces so what they told me he was a week prior was what he was that actual birth. His APGAR scores were 9 and 9 so he was not in distress. Meagan: He was doing okay, yeah. Samantha: Yeah. My husband cut the cord. Everything was fine. Then they brought me to the recovery room, but it was the general recovery room because L&D was closed for the night so I was left alone. My husband took the baby and went to postpartum. When we got there, the nurses said, “Oh no. Not another one.” Yeah. Meagan: Like another C-section baby or another person? Samantha: Any baby. Another person. Yeah, and he was like, “I feel great.” He has all of our bags. I had my boppy. I had his bag. He's carrying everything. He's got the baby in the pushing cart thing and nobody is helping him. They just shove him in a room in a corner and they say, “Do skin to skin. Here. Change his diaper. Done.” They left him there for four hours with a baby. Meagan: Four hours? Samantha: Four hours and didn't go check on him. Meagan: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry and you were still in that recovery room for four hours? Samantha: My bloodwork and all of my vitals were all over the place because I had hemorrhaged which I didn't know at the time. I was shaking uncontrollably. I kept on falling in and out of sleep. I guess they had given me morphine. I was so itchy. The whole time, I'm just worried because you hear about the golden hour, the golden hour. I was freaking out the whole time because my plan was to breastfeed and I was freaking out. So then a nurse comes at one point and she's like, “Here. Call your husband and ask him what the baby weighed.” I was like, “Okay.” So I call him and he was like, “Yeah, he was 7 pounds and 10 ounces.” I was like, “Okay,” then the nurse was like, “Okay, give me my phone back.” I was like, “What's going on here?” I was so confused. It just didn't make any sense to me what was going on. So finally after four hours, they brought me back up because I guess the spinal had worn off and my vitals were stable enough that they could move me. I got there at 1:15 AM. I finally got to meet my baby for real. They had only brought him over for a picture. He was on my chest for 30 seconds and they were like, “Let's go.” That was that. I found a lot of things after the surgery. I found out I had hemorrhaged because I needed a blood transfusion the next day. I never found out about the extension on my scar until I got my reports when I got pregnant the second time. Meagan: Because no one came in and talked to you. Samantha: Nobody. The medical student came to talk to me about the transfusion. Meagan: And in a controlled– an extension for listeners, she now has a special scar. Samantha: I got it after and it was because of my pelvic floor physio that I had an inkling of it because I went to go see her and she said, “Your exterior scar is very long.” I was like, “Oh, well they told me he got stuck. He was pretty stuck.” They said they tried to push him up during the C-section. He didn't really move so they ended up using the forceps in my C-section which I found out from the pediatrician the next day. I had no clue. Meagan: Really? Samantha: Yeah. Meagan: Wait, so they used forceps externally pushing up or with you cut open?Samantha: Yeah, with me cut open I'm pretty sure because he had the marks on the sides of his head. Meagan: So that's where the special scar came from. Samantha: Yes. They cut me further to get him out and so he ended up with a huge hematoma on the side of his head because he was OP and asynclitic. They told me his chin had been extended as well. Meagan: Triple whammy. Samantha: I don't know what happened to this poor child. Meagan: The baby was high and we broke waters in a less than ideal position and he came down and said, “Whoa, the flood gates just opened,” and came down in a wonky position. Samantha: Exactly. It was great. Meagan: Then we had Pitocin cramming him down there. Samantha: Yes, exactly. So when he came out, he had that huge hematoma on his head that they told me would resolve on his own. He had a pretty intense torticollis looking back now. In all of his pictures, he's got his head completely to his shoulders, this poor child so he did chiro and everything for that. Meagan: Sideways, yeah. Samantha: And I burst all of the blood vessels in his eyes by trying to push him out so hard. So poor baby. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Samantha: Yeah, so my milk took a lot longer to come in because of all of the trauma. Meagan: And blood loss I'm sure. Samantha: Exactly. He was jaundiced. He lost more than 10% of his weight because they had pumped me so full of liquid that he probably lost all of the excess weight that wasn't true weight. Meagan: Yes. Samantha: But they didn't explain that to me so they were all panicked. Meagan: So in retrospect, he was probably smaller than 7lb,10oz. Samantha: Exactly. Yeah, and he also had a tongue tie that we ended up revising at 4.5 months after trying absolutely everything not to, but we did it and everything went well other than that. Our breastfeeding journey was a bit tough at the beginning. But, you know. 22:15 Official reason for CesareanMy official reason for Cesarean was the arrest of descent and fetal distress. Meagan: Okay. Samantha: Yeah. The worst part is in the report, they didn't mention the forceps in some of the reports. Some of them do have forceps in them. Honestly, I don't know what happened. It was on some reports, some not. It was very confusing, but it did have the extension on there. They said it was a 4cm extension on my uterus. That's where the hemorrhaging happened because they hit that nerve on the side apparently. Meagan: Oh. Samantha: Yeah. That's what the doctors at the new hospital where I gave birth to my second told me when they reviewed my chart. She was like, “Okay. This is what happened to you. It shouldn't be a huge red flag for your next birth. You didn't hemorrhage just because. There was a reason.” Meagan: Yeah. That probably actually was nice for you to find out and have that validation a little bit. Samantha: Exactly. On the report, it said my waters had been broken at 6:30 on the night of the 13th when they were broken at 6:30 AM on the 14th. They recorded it as being 12 hours longer than I had my waters broken. Meagan: Interesting. Samantha: So I was like, “Hmm. That's nice. That's nice to know.” They never mentioned my fever and they reported that I pushed for two hours, not one. Meagan: Wow. Crazy. Samantha: Yeah. I was very upset when I read these reports. Meagan: Did you have gestational diabetes with this baby? Samantha: Nope. My sugars were completely fine. Meagan: Crazy. Crazy. Samantha: In the moment, I didn't realize how traumatizing the birth was. I was like, “We've got to do what we've got to do.” Literally, I said, “Put my big girl pants on. Let's go.” But it's when I was going through it in my brain and talking about it that I realized how much it affected me. Meagan: Absolutely. Samantha: That was a huge part of my VBAC prep after. I read “How to Heal a Bad Birth”. I did all of that. Yeah. It was intense. And something they never tell you about C-sections– I had the worst gas pain in my shoulder. Meagan: Oh yeah. It gets stuck up there. Me too. With my second C-section, no one told me that either and I was like, “What? Is this my milk? What is this?” I didn't know. This was literally what I said, “I want to stab a knife in there to release it,” because it was so strong. Samantha: Right? I thought I pulled every muscle in my body from pushing and it was just gas. Meagan: Our body cavities get air after being cut open and sometimes it can get trapped and it travels up to that shoulder. Samantha: It was the worst so just for anybody thinking they are dying from something when they are just healing from a C-section. You know, it's fun. 25:15 RecoveryRecovery went pretty well. I was seeing a pelvic floor physio and did a ton of scar mobilization. We were always working on the scar especially because it was huge. It was so long. That was part of my prep even before I got pregnant. Then at my 8-week postpartum– it's supposed to be 6 weeks but it was just delayed and it was on the phone because of COVID so that was fun recovering from a C-section not knowing if your scar looks okay. They had put Steri strips to close the scar and said, “They should fall off within a week.” Four weeks later, they were still on. I wrote an email and I was like, “Do I take these off?” I started Googling and it says it can cause infection. I was like, “Oh, great.” So another thing they didn't really advise me on so that was fun. Meagan: They didn't give you good post-op care. Samantha: No and we were in a semi-private room. It was just uncomfortable. It was not a great experience. One of the nurses made me cry and it was hard to make me cry in those first few days. I was completely numb and done. I was a shell of a human, to be honest looking back on it, and she managed to make me cry. She came in and she was like, “You didn't do this. You didn't do that.” I was so overwhelmed. I had a brand new baby. Meagan: I'm so sorry. Samantha: It was not great. So at my 8-week postpartum appointment, I asked about VBAC. My OB was like, “Yeah, you'd be a great candidate. You got to 10 centimeters. You were pushing. Everything is great.” So I was like, “Excellent.” He was like, “Just make sure that your births have to be two years apart.” I said, “No problem. I have marked it on the calendar. We're good.” 26:57 Second pregnancySo then I did end up getting pregnant really easily again. My due dates were a week apart. Meagan: Oh no way. Samantha: Yeah, so this baby was due on the 22nd. Meagan: Okay. Samantha: Because my son was born on the 14th, but his due date was the 7th but they ended up being a week apart. I was like, “Well, I got my two years. There you go.” Meagan: So they are 24 months apart? Samantha: Yeah.Meagan: Oh, they are. Okay. Samantha: Exactly. I went to see my OB at 10 weeks. That's when he sees you. He sent me for an ultrasound early around 8 weeks just to make sure everything was good. I was pulled from work because of COVID and for violent children. I'm a teacher, so we just had to make sure that everything was viable and everything. We did that. I went to see him at 10 weeks. First, he tried to date me earlier than I was. I knew for a fact that I was not again. Again. I was like, “No. We're not playing this again.” Meagan: Good for you. Samantha: I had my appointment with him and he told me. He started saying, “I think your best option would be being induced at 39 weeks. But I can't make you do anything. But I need you to go into labor spontaneously before 40 weeks if you're going to have a VBAC.” I was like, “Hmm.” Meagan: Red flag. Samantha: Exactly. I had started listening to The VBAC Link at this point so I was like, “That's not good. Okay.” I spoke to my chiropractor who was working on my son who had helped him with his torticollis and everything and she said, “The secretary had a VBAC and with this doctor at a different hospital so I'll text her. I know her well. I'll text her. I'll get you in.” She got me in with this new doctor.I went to go see her and she was like, “Yeah. You're a great candidate for VBAC. I don't see a problem.” I brought her my operative notes because she had to wait for them to be transferred. She was like, “The extension worries me a little. I just want you to get checked with a specialist.” Meagan: I was going to ask you if she said anything about your special scar. Samantha: Yeah, she did. I made an appointment at the special, I guess it's maternal-fetal medicine. Meagan: MFM, yeah. Samantha: It's called [inaudible] in French. Everything is in French, so it is at-risk pregnancies. I had to go see a specialist there. I made my appointment. I waited and I was panicking. I was like, “I need to have this VBAC. I need this.” I show up to my appointment. I waited for five hours then we were told the specialist had to be called for a C-section. I was like “I get it. If I were that person and I needed extra hands, I get it.” But then she told me, “You haven't even had your ultrasound for 12-13 weeks.” She was like, “There's no point in me looking at your dossier” or whatever.” I was like, “But it's not about anything except for my extension.” She was like, “No, no. Just make another appointment after your ultrasound.” I left there in tears panicking still. I was like, “I don't know if I can even try for this VBAC. I may just have to sign up for another surgery. We don't know.” So I went back a few weeks later. It was about a month later. It was a long time I felt panic and nerves. So then I saw this other doctor and she was fantastic. I literally left that appointment telling her I loved her. She was so nice and evidence-based. She took out files and showed me statistics and everything. She explained my previous birth. Meagan: Wow. Samantha: She was fantastic. She was like, “You made it to 10 and you were pushing. The baby was just in the wrong position. You're a perfect candidate.” I was like, “Okay.” She was like, “And the extension is lateral so it was all in the same direction.” She said, “Same direction or low, we have no problem with. It's if it goes up that we start looking at things a little bit more seriously.” I felt super relieved after that. She told me the reason for my hemorrhage. It was her who told me. She asked me, “Did they try different positions?” I said, “No. They moved me from side to side but pushing, I was all on my back.” She was like, “We would have gotten you up on hands and knees. We would have done squatting. Did they try to manually turn him?” I said, “Absolutely not. Nothing happened. They literally left me on my own.” She was like, “We would have tried all of those things.” It really validated my whole experience. Meagan: Absolutely. Samantha: She is known for doing VBAC after two Cesareans as well. She is one of the only doctors at that hospital who will do it. She is amazing. So that relieved me a lot.In between that, I hired my doula from a company called Mother Wit. She was fantastic. Her name was Megan Tolbert so I felt like I had a little bit of VBAC Link having a Megan of my own. Meagan: I love that. Samantha: I was seeing a chiropractor every two weeks and near the end, once a week. I did pelvic floor physio once a month. I did acupuncture once every two weeks and near the end, I did three intensive types of get-me-into-labor sessions. I did massage therapy just to relax myself because I was pretty high-strung. I did the dates starting at 36 weeks but that was also with the GD diagnosis. It was rough. I did red raspberry leaf tea. I did pumping and hand-expressing colostrum. I had read how important that could be for a gestational diabetes baby. That was something that was really important to me because I had been separated from my first for four hours. I was like, “This poor child didn't eat.” I brought my colostrum with me to the hospital and it can help with their sugars. That was really important to me. I walked every day. I did curb walking. I did Spinning Babies Daily Essentials. I read How to Heal a Bad Birth. I read Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. There was one story on GD in that book. That's why I bought it. Meagan: Hey, listen. You've got to find the stories, right? Samantha: It was so hard to find gestational diabetes stories at the time. It was really rough. Meagan: Was there a lot of emphasis on your diagnosis of gestational diabetes? Was there a lot of, “Hey, you've got to do this? This has to happen,” Or anything like that? Samantha: They weren't as on top of things as I thought they would be because the doctor I was seeing was a family doctor. She was a GP so everything above a healthy, regular pregnancy, she would send me to the at-risk clinic. They were really the ones who dealt with that. She had sent me for just routine bloodwork. My fasting numbers came back borderline so she was like, “Look. Now you're going to have to do the 75-gram three-hour test, two-hour test, sorry, here.” I did that. I had a gut feeling my whole pregnancy that I had gestational diabetes for some reason. I had no proof. No proof, but it just kept on popping up. It was so weird. I had a feeling that morning and I got my test results that evening. It was really fast. I did them privately. It was 5.3 so here it is measured a bit differently than in the US, but I don't remember the conversion. But the cutoff was 5.2. So at 5.3, I was just over but because gestational diabetes usually gets worse before it gets better, they are very safe in diagnosing. But I never actually got an official diagnosis. I just had the prescription sent to the pharmacy for my monitor. Meagan: Insulin? Samantha: No, thank goodness. Meagan: I was like, what? Samantha: They were like, “You are booked for the information session in two weeks.” It was two weeks after and they sent you some documents to read over. So I was like, “Okay. This is not enough. I need to find more information.” I spoke to friends. I ended up on a Facebook group called gestational diabetes Canada which was amazing and I ended up following somebody on Instagram named Leslee Flannery. She was fantastic so if anybody needs her, look her up. She is amazing. Meagan: I'll have to look her up too. Samantha: She is @gestational.diabetes.nutrition on Instagram and she is just fantastic. She really normalizes it because there is so much stigma with gestational diabetes. You think that you caused it and she really debunks that. I really got in my head about that and I was really afraid for my VBAC chances because if you end up on insulin, they really want to induce you by 39 weeks so I was panicking which doesn't help your numbers by the way. Meagan: It doesn't. We talked about this in last week's episode. We talked about cortisol not helping, lack of sleep not helping, and yeah. It's crazy but cortisol raises things. Samantha: Exactly and for me, it was only my fasting numbers that were the problem. Those are the hardest to control because apparently, those are the ones that are influenced the most by hormones and by your placenta. So that was really rough. Meagan: Yeah. We talked about that as well. We talked about choline and certain foods and not cutting things that impact our hormones. It's this cycling thing. Samantha: Exactly. So a lot of people are told to cut carbs completely, but what I learned is that if you do that, then you end up spiking your numbers even further because your body takes over. Meagan: You have to find a balance. Samantha: It was really intense and all of my chances of my VBAC were going out the window. I was crying at every appointment. At his 20-week ultrasound, the big ultrasound, he was measured at the 96th percentile. I was like, “Oh my goodness.” I left there bawling my eyes out. I could not get a hold of myself for three days. Everything was just crazy. I redid my bloodwork three or four times and finally, there were no more antibodies so that was just let go. We don't know what happened. Meagan: Interesting. Samantha: Yeah. It was just another scary bump. I don't know. It was intense. The gestational diabetes diagnosis really sent me for a loop too. I found this pregnancy I was very stressed because I was so set on getting my VBAC. But thankfully, I had my doula so I could send her all of my crazy emails late at night when I was panicking and she always talked me down from that ledge of panic. I also listened to a podcast from a somatic therapist who said that stress in your pregnancy can be a contributor to things like gestational diabetes and things like that. I know that put a lot of pressure on me and reading about the facts of gestational diabetes really made me feel a little bit better about that. It could have been, but it's not something that you can stop. It was nice to know that but gestational diabetes diagnoses really are hard when you are trying for a VBAC, I would say. Meagan: It is. It is which is why we had Lily on last week because we get the question so often. We get the text, “I was diagnosed. Can I still VBAC?” Asking the question, “Can? Is this still possible?” The answer is yes. Samantha: Exactly. So apparently, there is a spike between 32 and 36 weeks most of the time. That's when your gestational diabetes will be at its worst because apparently, there is something to do with the baby's growth. They have a growth spurt at that time and then usually, it tapers out at the end. My numbers all of a sudden just got better. It was a relief near the end. I was like, “Okay. Let's wrap it up. We're doing all of the things.” I was doing my birth affirmations. One of them was, “I am a Woman of Strength,” let me tell you. Meagan: Yes you are. Samantha: My Hypnobirthing tracks– I did the ones by Bridget Teyler. She's amazing too. All of the things getting ready. So then that leads up to my appointment at 39 weeks and 2 days. Everything with the gestational diabetes was fine at that point. They told me, “Look. We're going to treat you like a regular pregnancy. We won't talk anything until 41 and 4.” My doctor was not a big fan of inductions for VBACs because of the increased risk, but she was like, “Look. If we have to, we will look at it then. Until then, let's get you to go into labor spontaneously.” Meagan: Let's just have a baby, yeah. Trust your body. Samantha: Yeah, but I did opt for a membrane sweep because I was getting not close. I wasn't close because I was only 39 weeks and 2 days but I was like, “Look. I want all of the chances on my side of going into labor spontaneously.” I had started losing my mucus plug so my body was doing what it had to do. I had never had any of that with my first son at all. I was like, “Something is going on.” I started having more intense Braxton Hicks a little bit more often. I was like, “Things are going to happen. We need to do this.” Meagan: You could feel it. Samantha: I had the membrane sweep. After, she checked him on the ultrasound. He was LOA. He was head down. Everything was good. So I was like, “Okay. He's in a good position. Let's do this. Okay.” 42:46 LaborThe next evening, I started getting my Braxton Hicks. Looking back, I was probably in super early labor but didn't realize it because they were starting to get uncomfortable. I'd have to sit there and breathe for a minute. Nothing crazy, but I was like, “Huh. I felt that. That's weird.” I was at my friend's house and I was like, “Okay. That felt weird. I'm just going to go to the bathroom and go pee.” I came back and was like, “There's a bit of blood. I'm going to head home just because I want to sleep.” I went to bed and then I woke up at 4:43 AM with a contraction. I was like, “Oh. That's uncomfortable.” I had listened to so many stories about prodromal labor that I was just convinced that this could be prodromal labor for three weeks. I was in complete denial. I kept on trying to sleep, but they were coming every 10-15 minutes. They would wake me up each time. I wasn't resting super well. They started picking up around 6:30. I texted my doula at around 7:30 and I said, “I don't know if I had a bit of a bloody show. There is a bit of darker blood.” She said, “Probably not considering it wasn't fresh blood,” and all of those things. “But rest. Drink water. Do all of the things. Move around when you need to,” and things like that. It was fine. I said, “Okay. We will continue and I'll let you know if things pick up or not.” So my husband got up at 7:45 with my first son and did all of the things. I stayed in bed because my body just kept telling me, “Lie down. Rest.” I could not fight it. I was like, “Okay.” I lay down in the bed. Fine. I didn't even time my contractions. I was really convinced I wasn't in labor. It was the weirdest thing. I didn't eat enough. Meagan: This happens. This happens where we're like, “No, I can't be.” We want it to be so bad, but we're like, “But it's not. It's not.” Samantha: Exactly. Meagan: We're in denial. From having zero contractions from the first that I felt and having just Pitocin contractions, I didn't know what to think of this. I was like, “They are uncomfortable. They hurt a little, but I'm sure they're just going to fizzle out and we're going to be fine.” So then my first son went down for his nap around 10:00 and my husband had to go to work to drop off his keys because he was changing positions so that was his last day. He went to go say goodbye and everything then he came back home and went downstairs to watch TV and kind of left me on my own. He figured it was better to just leave her alone. She's going to be fine. Meagan: Yeah. Just let her do her thing. Samantha: Yeah. So at 11:55, I texted my doula and I said, “My contractions are still far apart.” I feel like they never got much closer at that point. It was 10-15  minutes, but they were getting more intense. She said, “Okay. Do some hands and knees positioning. Maybe take a bath. Continue breathing. Relax,” and all of those things. So then at that point, I said to my husband, “Okay, call my sister.” She was coming to watch my first son. She was on her way to a hair appointment that I didn't know she had because she didn't tell me. She knew I'd freak out, so we called my mom instead. She came. She was like, “Sam, are you timing these contractions? Is your husband? What's going on?” I was like, “No. I haven't actually taken out my timer. I don't know.” She started following me around with a pen and paper. “Those were four minutes apart. You need to leave right now.” She was like, “You're not going to have this baby on the floor at your house. No. You need to go.” Meagan: Was it active like you were really working through them? Samantha: 100%. I was moaning. I was trying to do a low moan to try to get through them. She said I sounded like a wounded animal at the end of each one because they hurt. She was like “You need to leave right now.” I was like, “Well, I need to shower.” She was like, “No, you aren't showering right now.” I was like, “Yeah, I am.” I had my piece of toast that I took one bite out of. I was like, “Maybe I should eat some more before I go.” Meagan: Yeah. Samantha: I was in too much pain to eat at that point so I was like, “Okay, I'm going to shower. It's going to be fine.” I got in the shower and it was literally the best feeling of my entire life I think. I was like, “Why didn't I do this earlier?” But I was not in the mind space to do it earlier. Every time a contraction hit me, I had the instinct to get up and walk or sit on the toilet. I think  my body knew that those were the positions that helped the most and then in between, I would lay down because that's what my body told me to do. I was just listening. I was along for the ride. Meagan: Hey, that's good. Samantha: Yeah. So then I texted my doula at 12:45. I said, “I'm going to shower, then we are going to the hospital.” My husband, during this time when my mom got there, was packing his bag because he hadn't and was getting all of our last-minute things. I had a list like my birth affirmations. I wanted to bring them with me and things like that. I got in the shower and got out. We left for the hospital at 1:06. It took us about 40 minutes to get there so there was a bit of traffic. Meagan: There was a drive. Samantha: Yep, but I was so lucky. I only had about four contractions the whole time. They had spaced out. My body knew what to do, man. Meagan: I was going to say your body knew what was happening. Samantha: Yeah. So then we got there. My doula had gotten there about five minutes before us so I saw her at the entrance. This guy stopped to talk to me for two minutes while I was in active labor waiting to go to labor and delivery. He was talking to me about my day and asking me when my baby was due. I was like, “Today.” Meagan: You're like, “Right now.” Samantha: I don't think he realized, but then I met up with my doula and I had a contraction on the way while we were walking. A guy passed by like, “Uh-oh.” I think he realized and put two and two together. So then we got there and went to the front desk. He was doing his paperwork going all slow and whatever then I had another contraction and he said, “Oh.” He got up and he walked away real fast and so they got me to triage and the woman, the nurse who came to check me said, “Look. We're going to check you really quickly and see where you are at, but I think you are going to be going to a room right away.” My sister-in-law had given birth at the same hospital two weeks before me and she showed up at 3 centimeters in a lot of pain. I was like, “If I am at 3 centimeters right now, I don't know if I can do this.” But I got in my head. I was like, “I'm going to be super low dilation.” Meagan: Those numbers, they mess with us and they really don't mean anything, but man, they impact us quite a lot. Samantha: Yeah. I remember saying that to my doula. I was like, “If I'm at 3, I'm going to scream and then get the epidural. I can't continue like this.” The woman was checking me and I'm waiting and I was like, “So?” She was like, “You're an 8.” I said, “Oh my gosh.” I was like, “I can do this.” It gave me a new spunk. I was like, “I'm ready. Let's go.” So they put me right into a room and they apologized. They were like, “We have to get everything ready,” so they were bustling around. They turned down the lights. They got me a yoga ball and all of those things. They were like, “Look, we're really sorry to be in here. We're going this as fast as possible then we will leave you alone.” They never even saw my birth plan because we got there at 8 centimeters and there was no time, but they wanted to put in the IV and my doula said to them, “Look, does she need an IV?” They said, “We just want the port at the very least.” I guess just the saline lock. Meagan: The hep lock? Samantha: Yeah, the hep lock, sorry. They did that and they wanted to monitor the baby's heart rate. Those were the two conditions that they wanted to have. Because I was so far along, it didn't really bother me. I didn't want to fight that fight. It was not something that was worth it to me. I was like, “Cool.” I was laboring standing up next to the bed, then the doctor came in and said she wanted to do her own checks so that she had her own line of where things were I guess. So she checked me and by then, I was already 9 centimeters. I had already gone up another centimeter. But what's funny is I guess I went through transition at some point, but I don't know that it was. Everyone always says that transition is crazy. I didn't have that. Meagan: Maybe you went in the car with distractions and stuff. Samantha: Yeah. In between contractions in the car, I was falling asleep. I was so tired. I don't know. Transition was not that bad for me, so I was lucky for that. So then the doctor said, “Look. Your bag of water is bulging. We can either break it artificially or we can wait and see when it breaks by itself.” I said, “Okay, let me wait.” She left and I continued laboring and I was like, “You know what? We are at this point. I'm 9 centimeters. They couldn't tell me his position yet because my water was still in tact.” Meagan: It was probably so bulgy, yeah. Samantha: So I said, “Just call her back.” She was like, “Well, it's going to get more intense.” I said, “It's going to get more intense. Let's do this.” I'm like, “Okay, hold on. I have another contraction coming.” I was on the bed. I turned over and all of a sudden my water exploded. They even wrote it on my report that I saw after, “a copious amount of liquid”. There was so much. So I was like, “That's good that that didn't break in the car because that would have been a mess.” Meagan: Yep. 52:34 Feeling pushySamantha: So then they cleaned up. I was standing next to the bed again and then all of a sudden, I felt pushy. I was doing the pushing sounds and my doula said, “Look. You need to concentrate. Tell me if you cannot push.” So the next contraction, I was like, “No, no. I'm pushing.” They wanted to check me again because they didn't want me pushing before 10 centimeters so they did do a lot of checks, but I wasn't too worried considering how close I was to the finish line for infection and things like that because I wasn't a huge fan of cervical checks going in, but I was like, “We're near the end. Hopefully nothing bad will happen.” So they checked me. I was already 10 and he was at a 0 station at this point, but he was LOA. They checked him, so he was in the right position so that was great. I was worried because my contractions were wrapping around to my back at that point, but I assumed that that is probably pretty standard when you're that low, I guess and things are getting more intense. But I kept on saying to my doula, “If he's OP, if he's OP, if he's OP–” I was so scared that he was going to end up in the same position as my first son especially because I had another anterior placenta. I read somewhere that that could cause positioning issues. I was like, “No, not another one.” He was fine. That was a huge relief in that moment. Then I tried a few different positions. On my hands and knees, I thought I was going to love that but I hated it. I could not push like that. I ended up on my side. I pushed a lot like that, but I was pulling on the rung of the bed and I don't know if I was using too much energy like that, but the doctor looked at me at one point and she was like, “Look. I know you don't want to be on your back, but maybe just try. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else, but try it.” I really trusted my team at that point. They had really been very aware of everything I wanted. They gave me choices. They were really evidence-based, so I was like, “You know what? This is a good team. Let's try.” Meagan: Why not? Samantha: So I went on my back and all of a sudden, my contractions were being used. My pushing was a million times better so I guess that's what I needed in that moment as much as I really hated to be on my back. I was like, “Maybe this is what I needed.” He descended really well to a +3. I had the whole team there around me. I had my husband up here next to my head and then my doula was next to him, then I had the doctor at the foot of the bed, then I had two nurses on the side and they were so good together. Apparently, they are a team that works together a lot, so they bounce off of each other and it was so supportive. They were always there telling me, “You're doing it.”Pushing was so hard for me though. So many women say, “Pushing was really where I felt empowered and like I could do something with the contractions.” Pushing was the most painful thing I've ever experienced, so I don't think I went in there thinking about that. Meagan: Yeah. 55:42 “You're not going to need a C-section today.”Samantha: I was shocked by that, but she also, at one point, said, “You're not going to need a C-section today. We are past that point. This baby is coming out vaginally. No matter what happens from here on out, you're good.” My eyes just filled with tears. I was so happy at that point. Meagan: I bet. Samantha: They started getting stuff ready at the end of the bed and I was like, “This is a really good sign. This means that baby is coming.” Meagan: Yeah. Constant validation. Samantha: Yeah. They were so nice. They offered a mirror which I accepted. Some people say mirrors really helped them. They were like, “Oh, we see his head.” There was a nickel-sized piece. I was like, “No.” I have so much more to do. I found that not super helpful. The doctor– I don't know how I feel completely about this, but she did warm compresses and stretching of my perineum while I was pushing. I didn't end up tearing, so I don't know if that ended up helping for it or not and they poured a lot of– Meagan: Pelvic floor work before too. Samantha: Yeah, exactly. I did a lot of that. They poured a lot of mineral oil on his head to try to get him to slip out a little bit easier because I was having more trouble. I don't know if those things are evidence-based necessarily, but in my case, I didn't tear. They may have helped. They may not have helped. I'm not sure. Though they did tell me I wasn't using my contractions as effectively as I could have been. I guess they said I was starting to push too early in my contraction and then not pushing long enough. They were really trying to coach my pushing. Meagan: Waiting until it built a little bit more.Samantha: Yeah, exactly. I mean, at that point, he was having a few decels so I think they were getting a little bit more serious at that point. They told me every time I put my legs down between contractions that he was slipping back up a little bit. They had the nurse and my husband hold up my legs at some point. I was exhausted at this point. It was 12 hours. It wasn't super long, but I think because I hadn't eaten enough or drank enough water. But they did let me eat in labor even though I was already 8 centimeters. They were fantastic for all of those things so I didn't have to fight that. So yeah, then at one point, his head was crowning, so the doctor actually had to hold his head in position between my contractions because he kept on slipping back in. Meagan: Oh. Samantha: Yeah. It was really intense and the ring of fire when somebody is holding that ring of fire there is no joke. Meagan: Yeah. Samantha: It was rough. Yeah, then at one point, the mood just shifted in the room. She said, “Look, if you don't get him out in the next two contractions, I have to cut you.” I said, “Excuse me? You have to what?” I was like, “An episiotomy?” She was like, “Yes. He is getting serious now.” He had a few pretty major heart rate decels so she was like, “I'm giving you two more.” They got the numbing stuff, I guess lidocaine ready. They dropped the bed down at that point so it was completely flat. I guess she wanted to have a better view of how she was going to cut. I pushed harder than I've ever pushed anything or done anything in my whole entire life and all of a sudden, I felt his head come out. I was like, “Oh, you didn't have to cut me.” It was right down to the wire. I pushed him out by myself and it was just like, “Oh my gosh.” It was the best feeling in the whole wide world.” Then she said, “Okay, stop pushing,” to check, I guess, for shoulder dystocia because of the gestational diabetes for the cord and everything. She was like, “Okay, he's good. Go ahead and push him out.” They said, “Grab your baby.”I pulled my baby out onto my chest. Meagan: Best feeling. Samantha: It was the best feeling in the whole wide world. I cannot describe it. The best. I had my VBA and I just kept saying, “I did it! I did it! I did it!” Everyone was so happy in the room and I had a very, very minor tear in my labia and that was it. It was night and day for my C-section recovery. They put the baby on me. He didn't budge from my body for 2.5 hours. Meagan: Oh, such a difference. Samantha: Oh my gosh. It was fantastic. He laid on me and I talked with my doula and my husband for an hour and a half until my doula left and then they came in and weighed him and did all of the things afterwards and checked his sugars which they have to do for gestational diabetes. They check sugars four times. Everything was good. It was just fantastic. It was the best, the best feeling in the world. Meagan: Oh, I am so happy for you. So happy for you and so happy that you found the support and the team and everything. All of the things that you had done did add up to the experience that you had. Samantha: Yeah. I went into this birth saying, “I'm going to do all of the things so that if I do end up in a C-section again, I know I did everything possible.” I needed that for myself. Meagan: Yeah. That's something to point out too because really, sometimes you can do everything and it still doesn't end the way you want, right? That's kind of how I was. I was like, “I want to do everything so in the end, I don't have the question of what if I did this? What if I did that?” Sometimes that was hard because it meant spending more money on a chiropractor and spending more money on a doula. We had to work on that. Sometimes it's not possible for some people and that's okay. VBAC can be done doing those things, but that's how it was for me too. I mentally had to do all of these things to just have myself be like, “Okay, if it happened. I can't go back and question.” Samantha: That's it. You're at peace with everything you did. It's funny. The doctor that I switched from, so my original OB, my doula had three VBAC clients all at the same time. We were all due around the same time. Two of us switched from him. We all started under his care and two of us switched. I ended up with a VBAC. She ended up with a repeat C-section but dilated to complete so she was very happy. The third person stayed with him and he pulled the bait and switch on her at 36 weeks. Meagan: So she had an elective? Samantha: She ended up with an elective C-section. I was like, “Oh my goodness. Thank goodness I followed my gut and I switched right away.” Intense. Insane. 1:02:39 Finding supportive providersMeagan: Yeah. Support really does matter. Support is important and in our Facebook group, we have The VBAC Link Community on Facebook, if you go under “Files”, you can click our supportive provider as well and this provider will be added to that list. Do you want to share your provider's name? Samantha: Yeah. Her name was Dr. Choquet. She was fantastic. I think I already submitted her name to be added. Meagan: You did, yes. Samantha: I loved her and Dr. Lalande was the one I consulted with for my extension who was super and is known for doing VBACs after two C-sections as well. Meagan: Lalande? Samantha: Yeah. I also submitted her name as well. Both doctors practice at LaSalle Hospital. It was a further drive, but 100,000 times worth it. Meagan: Yes. Sometimes it's hard to go far or you get worried about it, but usually, something good comes out of it. Well, congratulations again, and thank you so much for taking the time today. 1:03:53 3-5 prep tips for listenersBefore we leave, what 5 or maybe 3-5 tips would you give to the listeners during their prep? What were your key things for prepping? What information would you give and suggest? Samantha: I would say that the mental prep is 100% the work that I did the most that I think benefited me in terms of Hypnobirthing tracks. We did the Parents Course by The VBAC Link which was very helpful, I found, for getting my husband on the same page. He can tell you everything about VBAC now because he took that course. Meagan: I love that. So it helped him feel more confident. Samantha: 100%. He was pretty on board from the beginning, but it just solidified everything in his brain. He was like, “These stats. Obviously, we're going to go for a VBAC.” He was super on board after that for sure. Meagan: Awesome. Samantha: Then it armed me with the stats. My parents were very nervous about me trying for a VBAC and things like that so it really helped me arm myself. And just mentally, knowing that my chances of rupture and things like that were so much lower than the chances of actually succeeding in a VBAC so really, the mental prep and knowing that doing everything, I was going in there as equipped as I could be with the most education having done all of the prep work and then you have to leave it up to your baby and your body. Really trusting that and I didn't think the mental game would be that intense. Meagan: Man. It is. Samantha: It is. Meagan: It is intense and really, it can be especially based on what trauma we've had or what experiences we've had. There can be so much that goes into it and we have to find the information in order to even process sometimes and work through that and then you mentioned all of the amazing things you did. You did pelvic floor. You did acupuncture. You did dates. Samantha: I wrote everything. Meagan: You did it all. Samantha: And for the dates, I did them with peanut butter and a nut on them to balance the protein and the sugars. Meagan: That's my favorite way. That's my favorite way that I eat dates as well. Samantha: I broke them into two in the afternoon and then two after supper because that's when my numbers were the best for my gestational diabetes and I always took a walk after supper so that really helped. Meagan: Oh, I love that. Samantha: Because a lot of people, I would hear say they couldn't do dates because of their gestational diabetes but as long as you can balance your numbers, it's still a possibility so that's helpful and just finding all of the information about gestational diabetes was tough to find, but really important for my mental game as well. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, I love those tips. Thank you so much again and congrats again. We will make sure that we get your docs added to and your doula and everybody added to the list so people can find them because support is a big deal. It's a really, really big deal. Samantha: And thanks to The VBAC Link. Honestly, the only sad part is that there is not much of Canada that is covered yet, so finding my alternatives that way, but everything else was covered by The VBAC Link 100%. I tell everybody about The VBAC Link. The other day, I went for my COVID shot and I told my nurse– her daughter had just given birth via C-section and she wanted to go for a VBAC. I was like, “Get her a doula through The VBAC Link.” Meagan: Oh, that's amazing. I love that. Thank you so much. Samantha: Thank you so much for everything you do. It was a game changer, 100%. Absolutely. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Midwife, birth trauma healer, and beloved big sister Rebekah Wheeler breaks down what we get wrong about birth trauma, why there is no wrong way to give birth, and what we can do to truly support people through the birth process. Also, Sarah confronts her about never letting her borrow her Oasis t-shirt in middle school, and Miranda gets some free birth healing.  Links: Rebekah's website Review of Alison Yarrow's Birth Control in The Nation The Body Keeps The Score Recs for kids: Half Magic Wayside School Books Join our Patreon!

Welcome to The Doula's Guide To... Podcast, season 2 episode 11. In this episode I'm discussing the recently released NHS maternity statistics 2022-23 and whilst they seem pretty bleak on the surface, this is crucial information if you're planing on giving birth within the system. I discuss my top tips for navigating this and end with a pep talk! *Please note, there will be a part 2 podcast talking about if intervention is actually making us safer, it is an important part of the narrative but was too long of a segment for me to include here so has become it's own episode.Resources mentioned in the episode:NHS Maternity Statistics, England, 2022-23 - click hereEvidence Submission to the 2020 Maternity Safety Enquiry Birth Trauma Association - click here"Two-thirds of England's maternity units dangerously substandard, says CQC" - click hereWomen's descriptions of childbirth trauma relating to care provider actions and interactions - click hereDoula and virtual doula services - click hereClick here to find out more about my brand new prerecorded online courses: thedungareedoula.co.uk/onlinecourseUse code 'PODCAST' for 20% off!Love the podcast? support me by leaving a tip via buy me a ko-fi: click hereBook a Power Hour: click hereIf you enjoyed the episode please give it a like, review and click follow so you never miss out!New episodes are out every Friday at 7am so stick around.Connect with me:thedungareedoula.co.ukinstagram.com/thedungareedoulafacebook.com/thedungareedoulatiktok.com/@thedungareedoula

In today's episode I finish my conversation with Chantal. We talk about:* how she used her experience of her first birth to inform how she walked into the second birth. One major change she made was in her research strategy:The second time around she traded a home birth for a hospital birthshe researched:her doctorher hospitalall the procedures that might accompany preeclampsiaand morewhich led to a much more empowered birth experience.It also ultimately led to a career change, away from an office job to becoming a doula.

The “open your throat open your vagina' connection can be tapped for one of the most important sexual acts: Giving birth.Yes, giving birth is a sexual act. When a baby is born into the typical hospital/emergency/surgical setting, they are imprinted with the energies of:  Life is about pain, suffering and trauma  You are powerless and you are helpless, as the birthing woman usually is  OR:  You are in charge of your life and body  Pleasure is your birthright—ha, literally, starting with birth  You are in tune with the divine forces of nature and the cosmos and can live your life in alignment with them Which would you rather? Nothing will give your child a better start in this world than birthing them in ecstasy.In today's episode:  Well-F**ked All Star Kristie shares her deep throating/vagina opening free birth story  What it's like to free birth three babies and NOT participate in the medical system at all  Are naturally-birthed children any different than medically-birthed ones?  Why sexual transformation is your best tool for a natural and orgasmic birth  I will go so far as to say that ALL complications in birth are some manifestation of fear, unconscious programming and trauma imprinting that no one realized the importance of clearing before having a baby. That's exactly what we do in the Sexy Mama Salon. We cover every thing from conception to pregnancy, birth and beyond, all the while showing you how to tap your sexual energy and your intimate partner connection to quantum leap the process and align you with the divine flow of the universe. You can signup for the salon at Sexy Mama. 

In this episode, we're joined by Dr Hazel Keedle.  Hazel is a Senior Lecturer of Midwifery at The School of Nursing and Midwifery at Western Sydney University. Hazel has worked in nursing and midwifery for over two decades. Her interests in research focus on vaginal birth after caesarean (VBAC), birth trauma, and women's maternity experiences explored primarily using feminist mixed methodologies. She is now a lead researcher in the biggest study on experiences in maternity care in Australia - The Birth Experiences Study. Hazel starts by sharing her own personal journey to a VBAC. I'd love to provide a content warning as Hazel discusses the obstetric violence and lack of consent taken from healthcare providers in her first birth. She talks about how her birth inspired her research in her PHD, in which she explored women's experiences of accessing VBAC in Australia. She has recently written her excellent book, Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth, which I highly recommend for anyone on their own VBAC journey.  We then delve into topics around choosing the best, most supportive birth team for you on your VBAC journey, myths that exist around home birth, and why the language that is used around VBAC is so important.  Hazel discusses the following questions: Who's the best care provider to choose based on evidence with VBAC rates? What role does a supportive birth team play in planning a VBAC, and how can individuals find healthcare providers who are experienced and supportive of VBAC? Can you share some evidence around VBACs in hospital vs at home? What are the fears and myths around home birth and how can we dispel these? How can the language we use when discussing VBAC impact a person's perception of their experience? What alternative terms or approaches can we use to move away from the "success/failure" mindset and provide more supportive language for individuals pursuing VBAC? You can follow our instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@definitelybabypodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠for photos of weekly guests and episode updates and releases. The Definitely Baby theme music was written by Hagan Mathews and produced at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@sleeplessfootscray⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. The photo in the podcast logo was taken by ⁠⁠⁠@maki.levine⁠⁠⁠. I would like to acknowledge the land on which we recorded this episode - the Dharug people as the Traditional Owners of the Eora region and the Wurundjeri Wilam and Boon Wurrung/Bunurong peoples of the Kulin Nation. Australia always was and always will be the land of the First Peoples. Every month, I Pay The Rent and so can you - click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠to learn more.

Dr Hazel Keedle, PhD, is a Senior Lecturer of Midwifery at The School of Nursing and Midwifery, Western Sydney University. Hazel has more than two decades of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator and researcher. Hazel's research interests are vaginal birth after caesarean, birth trauma and maternity experiences explored primarily using feminist mixed methodologies. Hazel's work is recognised nationally and internationally, with many invited conference and seminar presentations including academic publications and a book for women based on her PhD findings ‘Birth after Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth'. Hazel is the lead researcher on the largest maternity experiences survey, The Birth Experience Study. In this interview we cover topics around Birth trauma Models of care and the impact they have on women's experiences  Vaginal birth after caesarean (VBAC) We really enjoyed our chat with Dr Hazel and love the impact she is making with her research around the world so much so that we have invited her to come to the Gold Coast to hold her workshop for Medical Professionals, Doulas, Birthworkers & Childbirth Educators to support women better through VBAC (sorry this is not a workshop for mums wanting to have a VBAC but through this education we will be able to support you more so please reach out to us if you would like support in preparing for your VBACK) The event will be held on Saturday the 28th of October 2023 in Robina on the Gold Coast from 8:30am-5pm tickets are $247 inc gst and this includes a copy of Dr Hazel Keedles book. Purchase your ticket through https://www.belly2birth.com.au/workshops Also a reminder that the next Nurture Hub Pregnancy Retreat is coming up on Saturday the 2nd of September. Tickets are limited so please book in advance. For more information and to book into the retreat visit: https://www.belly2birth.com.au/nurture-hub-events To work with Nicola Laye in preparation for birth or for postpartum visit www.nicolalaye.com To book into a Hypnobirthing Course with Shari Lyon visit www.belly2birth.com.au

We are so honored to have today's guest, Henci Goer, joining Meagan today. Henci has made it her life's work to help women make informed decisions about their care in the birth space. She has written multiple books, received countless awards, and has made current obstetric research more accessible to women worldwide. Henci defines uterine scar separation and talks about what factors may contribute to or help prevent this from happening. Meagan and Henci talk extensively about VBAC, VBA2C, birth plans, induction, and epidurals all using evidence-based research. We love that Henci's mission is to empower women and families to make the choices that are best for them. Here at The VBAC Link, our mission is the same!Additional LinksHenci's Blog: Is VBAC Safe?Henci's WebsiteLabor Pain: What's Your Best Strategy? By Henci GoerOptimal Care in Childbirth: The Case for a Physiologic ApproachNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and you guys, we have an amazing, amazing, amazing episode for you today. This episode has actually been kind of a long time coming. We have our friend, Henci Goer. She is just a wealth of knowledge. You're going to absolutely pick this episode apart. I know it. You're actually probably going to want a notebook so if you're one of the listeners that goes on walks or is driving, you might want to press pause or listen to it and come back with a notebook because I know you're going to want to write these stats down. We're talking about uterine scar giveaway, you guys. I know that this is something huge. All of our listeners, every single one of our listeners that has had a VBAC is aware of uterine scar separation so this is going to be a really great episode filled with wonderful evidence and all of the things for you. So buckle up. It's going to be amazing. Review of the WeekBut of course, we have a Review of the Week so I am going to quickly share that with you. This review today is actually on our How to VBAC: The Ultimate Parents Course. This is from Rosie. It says, “As someone who had an unplanned Cesarean myself and as a doula, I really appreciated how well-balanced this course is. There's no shaming. There's no bias. It's just the facts.”Thank you, Rosie. I'm so glad that you are enjoying the course or have enjoyed the course. And if you didn't know, we do have a How to VBAC Parents Course and a Doula Course for all of you birth workers out there who want to learn how to support your VBAC clients. We have this course. You can check it out at thevbaclink.com. Henci GoerMeagan: Okay, Ms. Henci. I am so honored to have you on the show today. I mean, really, it seems like we've been talking for months. I really think it was the beginning of the year, right? Henci: Something around there, yeah. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh, it's been so long. Just for anyone out there who wants to know a little bit more about Henci and why we are having her on the show today, she actually started out as a Lamaze teacher and a doula. Her life's work soon became analyzing and synthesizing obstetric research in order to give pregnant women, birthing people, and birth professionals access to what continues to be optimal care in childbirth. Just that right there, that little bit right there, I'm telling you guys, it really is her life's work. If you Google her name, you're going to find a ton of research. She's an author of four books. Four books, you guys. Labor Pain, What is Your Best Strategy?, Optimal Care in Childbirth: The Case for Physiological Approach with co-author Amy Ramana– is she on MSN and CNN or has been mentioned? Tell me about that. Henci: She's a nurse-midwife. That's Master of Nursing. Meagan: Oh, I was thinking CNM in my head. MSN, so what is that? Henci: It's a Master of something. I don't know what that degree is. She's a nurse-midwife. Meagan: She's a CNM. Certified Nurse-Midwife, yes. In my head, I read CNM. The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth and Obstetric Myths Versus Research Realities. You guys. In addition, she has written numerous blog posts, articles, given lectures around the world, and here she is today on our podcast. I'm so honored. In recognition of her work, she has received among so many others, the American College of Nurse-Midwives' Best Book of the Year. Henci, congratulations on that. Henci: Yeah, that was a thrill. Meagan: That is amazing. Lamaze International Presidents Award, DONA International Claus– Henci: Both of their memories are a blessing. Meagan: I know. Seriously, a research award on that. Life Achievement Award, I mean, you guys. She has so many awards and here she is to talk with you, Women of Strength, all about one of the biggest topics in VBAC. Right? Uterine separation, also known as uterine rupture. When I started talking with Henci, I love that she was like, “You know, I don't love to call it uterine rupture. It's uterine separation.” I have really grown to love that over the last few months that we have been talking. Yeah, so let's talk about it. What is uterine scar separation, Henci? What is that? Henci: Well, before we get started because I think we are going to be giving a lot of information. I want to emphasize that one of the things that took so long is that what we decided to do is that I would do a blog post that had all of the detailed information in it.Meagan: And it does. Henci: So, not to worry. I imagine that with the notes for the podcast, you'll post a link to the blog post which will have detailed numbers in it. My life's work– and I love the review of your course because just sits where I sit. My life's work has been wanting to give women and birthing people the ability to make choices having all complete, accurate information on the pros and cons of their option which is really difficult to get as you probably know and your people probably know. Meagan: It is. Yes. Henci: What they choose to do with it, it's just that I'm there for the information. No judgment. I'm here to help people decide they want to plan a repeat Cesarean. Whatever it is, I want people to have accurate, balanced information to the best of my ability to create a space where they can make the choice that's right for them and their families. Meagan: Absolutely. I love that so much and that is really what we are here about at The VBAC Link. There's no shaming in choosing a repeat Cesarean. There's no shaming in choosing an epidural over unmedicated, right? There's no wrong way to birth, but the most important thing to us here at The VBAC Link is that you know the facts, you know the options, and you choose the best route for you. Henci: And then the other piece which is part of my work as well is to go beyond the information and say, “So now you have this information, what can you do with it?” What are the tips, ideas, and recommendations that will help you craft a plan that will help take you in the direction that you want to go? I'm very careful. This may be one of the more important things that I say to your group and it's not informational. I'm very carefully not saying “goal”. I think it's very important to distinguish intention from goal. Goal assumes that you have you get somewhere and if you don't get to that place then you failed, right? The intention– is this is the direction that you want to go in?To have that in mind helps you, first of all, to plan the journey in a way that's most likely to succeed in getting there, but it also helps you have your priorities so that if things happen along the way, you're able to be flexible to know what's really important, to navigate the space, but to understand that sometimes life has other plans so if you don't take anything else away from what I say today, please take away that because I think that's really key. Meagan: Yeah. As a doula, when we're doing prenatals with our clients, a lot of people will be like, “Can you help me write a birth plan?” I love the idea surrounding birth plans. Let's have this idea of how we want this birth to go, but I like to reference it more as birth preferences. “Here are my preferences and I'm going to label them from A to D, most important to less important, and have this idea and this plan, but then also know that there are other options and it's okay if I choose those. It's okay if my birth goes another route because I have these preferences and we're going to do everything we can to have them, but we know it doesn't always pan out that way. We know that. Henci: I think too that something has gone wrong. I talk about this in the introduction to my latest book. I think “plan” has gotten a bad rap. So a plan isn't a laundry list or a blueprint. It's more like, “Are you planning for a career? Well then, you're going to decide what you're going to do to take steps in that direction. Are you planning a vacation?” But it's not something that has checkboxes on it. Meagan: It's not a list. Henci: I think, if I may be so bold, the problem with preference is that at least, I think especially if you talk about preferences to medical staff, it becomes like, “Well, I think I'd rather wear a blue gown or have chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla.” It doesn't have the same strength as saying– Meagan: “This is my plan.”Henci: And that can be internal to the woman or the birthing person. But yeah, let's get into the meat of what I want to say today. Meagan: No, I love that message though. I do love that message. I think it would be really good if we did stop because the reason why we change “plan” is because if things don't go as planned, we failed. That's how our minds work and it's not how it is, but that's how the world has–Henci: Right, but this I think is what happened when birth plans became a thing in the medical environment. It became a checklist. But when you say, “I'm planning a vacation,” if your plane flight gets delayed and you miss your connection to the cruise boat, you don't say, “Oh, I failed.” Right? Meagan: Right. Henci: It's a plan. “All right. How am I going to get to Costa Rica?” It's a very different mindset and I'd just like to relieve the audience from the idea that a plan is too limited. Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Let's talk about how when we are planning to have a VBAC and when we are going for a trial of labor after a Cesarean, we have a lot of providers talking about–Henci: I'm going to plan a VBAC trial. I think language is just so key to all of this. Meagan: Right? I know. Henci: A trial suggests that– Meagan: We're trying. We're trying. Henci: The other word that I'd just like to take out is “success”. You either plan a VBAC and have a VBAC or you plan a VBAC and you have a repeat Cesarean. Meagan: Like you say, those words are so important. We talk about VBAC and TOLAC language in our course and talk about how you might hear TOLAC and that actually might be triggering. It is to a lot of people because you are like, “I'm not trying to do anything. I'm going to have this baby. My goal or my plan is to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean.” I don't love trial, but we talk about how that is how medical professionals will label it so we try to get comfortable with the term TOLAC so when we hear it at birth, we're not triggered, but knowing in our minds, we are planning to have this VBAC. So when we are planning for our VBAC, one of the number one things that focuses on that from a lot of providers is uterine separation. Henci: Right and even there, the language that the medical practitioners use is right with the language of failure. So let's even take that. You hear, “What are my odds of–” even if they don't call it uterine rupture? The thing is that there are a couple of really big studies, like 50,000 because now we have these big databases and in one of them, the likelihood of the scar giving way was 5 out of 1000 and in the other one, it was 3 out of 1000. What you have to think of is, in one of those studies, the odds were 995 out of 1000 that you wouldn't have a problem with your scar and in the other one, it was 997 out of 1000 that you would not have a problem with your scar. The other thing that people have to understand is that even if you do, even if the scar gives way, yes, it's an emergency. The odds of having something bad happen to your baby– Meagan: Catastrophic, yeah. Henci: Catastrophic happen to your baby are again, 997 out of 1000. When that problem happens with your scar, 997 times out of 1000, your baby is going to be just fine. You're going to have an emergency Cesarean, but your baby is going to be fine. Meagan: Usually Mom is fine too. Henci: Yes, absolutely. So you have to think in those terms so that the numbers are very low. The thing there is that it's a general number. Meagan: Right. It is a general number. That is something that we really, really need to keep in mind. This is a general number. Henci: I want to drill down and look at some things that affect that number. The first one, and don't worry, I go into details and give all of the numbers in the blog post. The first one is what I noticed when I started doing the research for this is that you have two factors that pull in opposite directions. One of them pulls towards having a problem with the scar and that is the use of induction or augmentation. The other pull in the direction of not having a problem with the scar and that's having a prior VBAC. Before we get to, “Well, my last baby was big. Does that increase my chance because I might have a bigger baby this time?” Those two things are key and one of them, you sort of have control over. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, not inducing. Henci: What I can tell you is that it's pretty clear that the stronger the stimulus to the uterus, the more likely you are to have a problem with the scar. In other words, particularly the highest risk is if you are induced at all just with oxytocin and then if you're induced or augmented, it really goes up– this is really the key point– if you are induced when the cervix isn't favorable for labor and they give you an agent. Meagan: To help soften the cervix and get you ready for induction. Henci: Right. It does a great job of softening the cervix, but there actually may be a reason why the agents that soften the cervix are problematic for the scar because the cervix is made of connective tissue. What those agents do is that they cause the cervix to soften by pulling in water and softening the way you'd wet a sponge. Meagan: I love that analogy. I've never thought of that. Henci: Guess what the uterine scar tissue is made up of? Connective tissue. That could be where the problem is. But anyway, so the more you augment the uterus, the more likely you are to cause a problem with the scar if the contractions are stronger and longer and for longer periods of time. One thing to keep in mind is that induction is never an emergency or a necessity. If, for example, you do have a medical issue like your blood pressure is going up, there's a real reason that induction and getting the baby out sooner rather than later is possible. I'm going to put this on the back burnerhere are studies that show if you are really careful to induce to mimic as much as possible what the body does naturally, you can induce without overstressing the scar. That's something to say if, “Oh my god, if my only choice is induction or a repeat Cesarean, I guess I'd better choose repeat Cesarean,” then I would say, “Yes, there are ways to do this.” Like the wicked witch says, “These things must be done carefully.” That's one thing. The other thing is that there is very strong evidence that if you have had a VBAC, you are much less likely to have a problem with a scar. Having a prior vaginal birth, a vaginal birth before a Cesarean doesn't seem to have as much of an effect on that, but if you get a VBAC under your belt, you are very, very likely to go on having uneventful VBACs if you choose to have more children. Meagan: Why do you think that is? Just because the uterus has progressed and it has pushed a baby out? I read that question a lot and in my head, I know there is a showing that you are more likely, but in my head, I'm like, “Why? Why is it exactly why you are more likely to have a VBAC if you've had a vaginal birth and if you've had a VBAC, you're less likely to have separation when the uterus is doing the same chemical functionality?” It's contracting and squeezing and pushing a baby out.Henci: If that were true, then it wouldn't make a difference whether you've had a vaginal birth before you've had a Cesarean or you've had a VBAC after you've had a Cesarean. Meagan: It's really weird. Henci: So I have no idea. I'm just the literature lady. I just can tell you what the research says. Meagan: Yeah. Right? I don't know that either. I can't figure it out myself either. I don't understand why. Yeah. Okay, I had a vaginal birth and then I had a C-section and then now I don't have as high of a risk. It's just interesting. It's really interesting. Henci: Yeah, certainly. If you have had a VBAC, for anybody to say, “Oh, we just don't do VBACs and you really need to have a repeat Cesarean,” your best option is to plan a repeat VBAC. I mean, that is a really strong link there. Meagan: Right, but we're not having providers suggest it. We're still having providers saying, “It is your best option to have a scheduled repeat Cesarean.” Henci: Do they say why?Meagan: We have people writing all over. One, we just don't support it. Two, the vaginal birth that you did have– say if they had a vaginal birth– wasn't until 41 weeks so if you have a baby by 39 weeks, it's fine. You can have that but after 39 weeks you can't. Henci: Yeah, that's what I call a Cinderella VBAC. You can have a VBAC if you go into labor before 40 weeks and if your previous baby wasn't too big and if you make progress in labor, but you know, the basic reason is, “We don't do VBACs here because we can't handle obstetric emergencies.” Oh, wait. Let's think about this. You're a hospital. You have women coming in in labor. Some of them have high blood pressure. Go down the list and you're saying that you can't handle an obstetric emergency 24/7? You shouldn't be doing births here. Meagan: You shouldn't be having babies here. That happens a lot where you've got more rule areas like, “We can't support VBAC because we can't handle an emergency Cesarean.” It's like, “Well, if you can't handle an emergency Cesarean, then that's a big concern for anyone to give birth because VBAC or not, we know emergent Cesareans can be needed for first-time moms.” If they can't handle a VBAC Cesarean, then how are they totally able to handle someone who has an emergency Cesarean just in general?Henci: Unfortunately, this isn't something that your audience can change. They're not going to talk that hospital into changing, so it just hurts my heart that people are put in this sort of form of dilemma where they don't have a good option. They have a least worst option. Meagan: They feel stuck. That is the same thing with me. It hurts my heart that so many people feel so stuck out there. We have mamas that travel out of the country or out of the state just to find somewhere but that option isn't for everyone. So it's really hard if you feel stuck and you're not feeling supported in your community. So yeah. It hurts. That's a whole other type of podcast. Henci: That's a whole other topic. Meagan: Yeah, so let's talk about what uterine separation is. We talk about uterine separation. I'm going to use the word that a lot of providers use as rupture. So when we hear this really big word, when I picture a water balloon breaking– Henci: That's why I don't like that word. Meagan: That's what we hear. That's what we hear. We hear “rupture” and that's what I hear is a water balloon breaking and popping. That is really terrifying to hear and to think of when in actuality, it's not usually how that happens, right? Henci: Right. Meagan: Our uterus doesn't just break open and explode. It doesn't so let's talk about separation. What does it mean? What does that mean? And there are multiple types of separation. Henci: Actually, it's been interesting to see because I've actually been involved in this work since the 1980's so to watch the evolution when VBAC started coming in and went out again, as the research has grappled with an agreement on a definition of exactly what that meant because they find this all the time in repeat Cesareans that little windows can open up in the scar. It's not a big deal. Scars are tough. They don't cause any problems so what they finally ended up with is the scar completely gives way to form an opening in the uterus between the uterus and the abdominal cavity. That would be in combination with symptoms, usually heavy bleeding or the baby being in distress. Meagan: Or baby going high up. Henci: There is no clinical significance to a window. There are no symptoms. Nobody is hurt. Nobody is at risk, but if the scar gives way to the extent that there is heavy bleeding and in very rare cases, the baby or part of the baby can actually be in the abdominal cavity, that's a scary situation. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, and talking about the uterine window– as she was saying, it's where it thins out so we've got this thinning. The crazy thing is that there really aren't any symptoms. Henci: There are none. Meagan: You really wouldn't know if you had a uterine window unless you were opened up. Henci: Unless you had a repeat surgery, yeah. So there is the interesting thing about that. One of the things they tried to do– and I hope that none of the doctors they are encountering are doing this– was they thought, “Hmm. Why don't we do an ultrasound to see how thin the scar is? Maybe that will help us predict whether the scar will give way.” It turns out and there is absolute agreement on this that you can't use that. It isn't accurate enough to tell you anything and what's more, the correlation in that study was when she was pregnant, we did this ultrasound and we measured the thickness of the scar. Then, when they had their surgery, we looked to see if in fact there was a problem with the scar. They found some little windows, but that didn't mean they would have had a problem if they would have gone into labor. So that whole idea of, “We have some way of predicting when the scar will give way so that we can advise whether it's a good idea to try a VBAC,” all of the studies that have been done of that have said that they aren't accurate enough to be used to counsel a person about VBAC. So anybody that's using that one is not scientific. Meagan: Yet we get those messages all the time. “Hey, my doc said I can't have a VBAC because my uterine thickness is too thin.” We get that reason all of the time, being told that they cannot VBAC because of that. It's so disheartening when we've got evidence showing certain things, but we have providers not following evidence-based information. Henci: Yes. You can always find a reason to do something you don't want to do. Meagan: Yes. That is what I was going to point out too. Sometimes when we have providers saying things that are completely opposite of what evidence even says or just don't support evidence in general. We got a message saying that they had a 60% chance of uterine rupture. Henci: Oh sheesh. Meagan: Yeah. They said that their uterine scar would give way 60% of the time. I'm like, “No way. No.” Where do we even get that? But a lot of the time, these providers are, like you said, saying things because they don't want to do things or they've seen things that make them scared so they put people under this general umbrella and they're like, “Oh, you've had a C-section. You're under this umbrella and this umbrella is not going to let you have a VBAC.” Henci: I have a dear friend who was interested. She was a marriage and family counselor and she was doing work with PTSD, child-related PTSD. We were sitting at a conference and there was an obstetrician who was lecturing who started actually talking about an emergency birth where things went wrong and she actually started to tear up. My friend had an epiphany. She said, “Oh my god. It's not just women who develop PTSD.”Meagan: Yeah. It's these providers. Henci: It's birth professionals as well and if you've been at a crisis birth even if everything turned out right, but if it was that sort of an emergency, “Oh my god, we might lose this mother or we might lose this baby,” that's going to change the way you practice because what is the signal effect of PTSD? It's intended to be protective. Your brain says, “I never want to be in that situation again. What do I need to do to avoid it?” Meagan: Right. Henci: I have compassion for that, but it doesn't help your audience who is stuck with these people who have no idea what is actually driving their decisions. Meagan: Right. I guess I want to mention that just because sometimes I feel like, and even on this podcast, we're guilty of saying things that make it feel like we're painting bad pictures of providers and putting them in a bad light. That's not the goal here in this podcast. That's definitely not what we want to do but we do know that a lot of people have been let down. Henci: Yeah. Meagan: I mean, here's this failed word but there are a lot of people out there who have been failed. Henci: They've been failed by their care provider. I will use failed in that case. Meagan: They've been failed by the staff or by their care provider or their location. A lot of the time, it's really hard because we don't know what that other person has experienced. We hope that those professionals will work through those and stop putting these general umbrellas over people, but we know that it's probably not going to ever stop happening. Henci: No, unfortunately. But I want to move back to how we just talked about a case where the research doesn't back up what the doctor says, but I want to talk about a couple of cases where- and this is where being more critical of what the research has to say. It does on the surface back doctors up. So now let's get into some of the categories for induction. The big one is, “We don't want you to get past 40 weeks because we know that with longer pregnancy duration, there is more chance for scar rupture.” That sounds good and it's actually in the research, but here's the catch. Underneath that is what happens at 40 or 41 weeks? They induce labor and there is research that shows that the reason that you get more is that all of the scar ruptures were in induced labor. We know that induction increases the risk of scar rupture. It creates the illusion that it's pregnancy duration. It's not. It's pregnancy management. The other one where that happens and it's actually in the research is women who are expecting a big baby or they think the baby is big. Meagan: Suspected big baby. Henci: First of all, if your doctor says, “Oh, you know. This baby is going to be on the big side. We did the ultrasound. I've been feeling your belly.” You might as well flip a coin because there is a 50/50 chance that that is incorrect and your baby isn't going to be on the big side. So number one, they may be anxious about something that isn't even true. Meagan: It's so true. Henci: The second thing is, then what happens next? Let's induce before the baby gets bigger. So again, you find an association between VBAC labors with bigger babies and an increased risk of scar rupture but that's not the root cause. The root cause is those laboring women were induced. So that is something to take into account when you hear those things and again, I've got the numbers. The reason I keep coming back to the importance of the blog post is one of the things that I think is less than helpful is vagueness like, “There is a chance.” The first question I'd have is, “How big?” so I wanted to as much as possible give people the numbers so that they can do what feels right for them but also know how those numbers are distorted by management. The VBAC rate itself is distorted by management because VBAC studies outside of the hospital coming from home births and birth centers show a VBAC rate in women who have not had any prior VBACs– the first birth was the Cesarean and this is the second delivery. The VBAC rate was 81%. Out of the hospital-based studies, they range up to the low 70 percentile, but the hospital studies don't get up that high.Here's the important thing. If it's at all possible, find a care provider who's really comfortable with VBAC and knows how to manage them because where do you see the bad outcomes? To a huge extent, they're in labors that were induced and labors in which there was a problem with the scar which is much more likely if they were induced or augmented or she wasn't given enough time and then she went to C-section.The complications happen in C-sections so the more you are able to have a birth that proceeds at its own pace with no stimulation and there is a spontaneous vaginal birth, your birth by your own efforts, that's when it's minuscule in terms of having complications. Meagan: Right. It's so hard because yes. We talked about this earlier. Oh, we've got hypertension and oh, we've got this thing and we have options. Do we induce or do we have a C-section? It still is very possible to have a VBAC with an induction. We're just talking about uterine giveaways and the chances. You increase your chances by choosing to be induced. That doesn't guarantee you're going to have that happen or anything but you have to know walking into it, “Okay, I have this, this, and this, and I'm going to choose to induce.” You have to know the risk that you are taking. We have to weigh out the risks and say, “Okay. I know it increases a little bit. I'm comfortable taking that risk or I am not comfortable taking that risk.” Henci: Right. Or how can I minimize my risk? Because it still is possible. You have to do it diplomatically but if you have a care provider who is willing to be flexible and is like, “Yeah, I'm not sure about this one,” but you're able to have that conversation where you feel like they can hear you and you're going to be respectful and hear them, then I think there's a lot that can be done. You can say, “No or not yet.” Meagan: Yep. We just made a post on Instagram and Facebook about that saying, “I appreciate the time that we just took. I'm going to choose to wait” or “Thank you so much for that, but I'm not going to do that.” Henci: The other thing I would suggest if you're in a situation where you're saying no is to have a discussion around which new information would change your mind because that again creates space with, “Oh, I don't have one of these patients that's just being difficult,” but to say and talk about, “If my blood pressure goes up–”. I don't know what it might be, but to have a conversation about under what circumstances might you consider changing your mind. Meagan: Right, yeah. It's powerful. Conversation and information are powerful. I always encourage someone to ask questions and to get their research. If we have a provider saying you have a 60% of uterine scar giveaway, let's talk about that. “Wow, that seems really high. Is there any way that you can provide me with that information so that I can study that and see what's comfortable for me?” And then you'll look and it and go, “Oh, there aren't statistics showing that I have that? Okay.” Then you might make a different choice, but if you just hear that number and don't ask any questions, then you automatically might say, “That seems really scary. I'm not even going to go there.” We have these myths and these numbers and if we don't ask for information, we're doing ourselves a disservice. Henci: I've got the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists practice bulletin. I wonder if there is any way– I mean, a summary of recommendations and conclusions backed by level A evidence, good and consistent scientific evidence. The first one on the list is, “Most women with one previous Cesarean delivery with a low transverse incision are candidates for and should be counseled about and offered TOLAC.” Meagan: Yes. Henci: My eye goes down and I want to talk about women who've had two prior Cesareans. I know we wanted to talk about that. Meagan: We do want to talk about that. Yes. Henci: I will say that they're not enthusiastic about it, but nonetheless, this is under level B evidence which is limited or inconsistent scientific evidence, and what it says is, “Given the overall data, it is reasonable to consider women with two previous low transverse Cesarean deliveries to be candidates for TOLAC and to counsel them based on the combination of other factors.” They have all of these VBAC predictions which I'm just going to be blunt, they're crap because they're evaluating the wrong thing. What they should be evaluating is the doctor's propensity to care for VBAC and their confidence in VBAC. Then you'd get the numbers that would really correlate with whether labor would end in VBAC or they wouldn't. Meagan: Right. Right. I know. Then just going one step further, vaginal birth after two Cesareans, then we've got people talking about vaginal birth after three or more. There's no evidence in there because we're not doing them very often. Henci: The evidence is not there for three. It is there for two, although again, you can get very low, again, the equivalent of sort of the average. There are some Israeli studies where there is a very large population of women there who have large families so you do get people with two Cesareans, but the thing there is they need to be managed carefully. In one case, it was like, “We don't do inductions other than by rupturing membranes in someone whose cervix is ready to go.” There are ways to do that. But what I wanted to say is that now here's a case where you have to look at the other side which is that there are studies that show there are consequences because as you accumulate uterine scars, the complications in subsequent pregnancies go up. So when you get to two prior Cesareans and there are studies that looked at the branch in the road. You had two prior Cesareans. Did you plan a VBAC or did you plan a repeat Cesarean? And guess what? The severe complication rates were identical. It was an identical rate of hysterectomies. There was the same rate of perinatal mortality so it's not like, “Oh, I'll just choose that safe third Cesarean.” There are increased risks, but there are also increased risks to taking another Cesarean on board. Meagan: And then to add to that, future pregnancies. With each Cesarean that we have, we have also risks in future pregnancies that are not discussed when we're counseling in this medical world from what we're finding. We're being counseled for VBAC. We're being counseled about the risk of uterine separation and the VBAC issues, but we're not talked to about the blood loss or the risk of hysterectomy. We're not talking about those things. Henci: Or chronic pain. Meagan: Chronic pain or dense adhesions or placenta accreta. We don't talk about these issues or even deeper issues. We're not talking about them. That is where I think is one of the places we're going wrong in this medical world. We're not truly counseling on all sides of things to really give people the opportunity to make that really informed decision. We're kind of just prefacing over here, but like, “Oh, but we could schedule your baby's birthday and get your hair done the day before because you know exactly when your baby is coming.” We're not counseling. Like you said, there are issues and there are risks. So with VBAC after two C-sections, through your education and ACOG not saying, “Yeah, go for it for sure, for sure,” But they're saying, “It should be reasonable.” Through your uterine scar separation research, is it substantially larger? I know there are going to be numbers in the blog and we talk about it in our course and things, but is it like you have a 0.4% to what? To 10% if you've had two to 1%? We've got people being told things all over the place. I guess my question is through your research with VBAC after two Cesareans, we're going to specifically talk about two Cesareans here, is it increased and truly that much higher? I mean, I know the answer, but let's talk about it. Is it really that much higher or is it pretty low statistically? Henci: Well, I actually turned to that page in the blog post and I had a couple of different studies. There was an increase in both studies. It was quite small. The difference in these studies, I really think, had to do with the fact that in one of the studies, that was the one where they would only allow the rupture of membranes as a means of induction. So in one case, it went from 3 per 1000 with planned VBAC after one Cesarean to 6 in 1000 with planned VBAC after two Cesareans, and in the other one, it went from 7 to 1000 to 16 per 1000. But that's still a 98% chance of not having a problem with your scar. Meagan: Right. Henci: The thing is, there is a consciousness, but if you're planning a large family, that maybe I think a lot of care providers will say, “Well, if you're only planning on having two children, it really is not that big of a deal to have another Cesarean.” But the thing with that is that I think it is really important to understand that you may plan to complete your family with two children. That doesn't necessarily mean that's what's going to happen. Meagan: That's true. That is so true. Henci: I think unless you or your intimate partner are planning on doing something permanent about your fertility, you have to consider the fact that you may choose to have another baby or you may find yourself pregnant and decide you're having another baby. Meagan: Right. Henci: I think you always have to take that possibility into consideration when you're making that first decision. Personally, this is totally my opinion and my judgment. No pressure here. I think the best thing that you can do is get off the Cesarean track if you can. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. I mean, it really is. There's proof in the pudding that a vaginal birth is the ideal route in the long run overall. Henci: Yep. Meagan: I guess as we're wrapping up here, let's talk a little bit about, well, how you do you decide? How do we decide? Henci: I know that I wanted to get to something because we talked about this. I wanted to get to the epidural issue. Meagan: Epidurals yeah. Let's talk about that too. Yeah. Henci: What you are saying is you're hearing both sides. One is that you can't have an epidural and the other is that you have to have an epidural. Meagan: Literally, they say that you have to have an epidural to have a VBAC. Some of them are like, “Well, yeah. You can VBAC. Just know.” I feel like it's used as this fearful thing. “Just know that you can't have an epidural so you're going to have to go unmedicated.” Henci: Let's take care of that one that you can't have an epidural first because that's the easy one. Again, I go back to ACOG. Level A evidence. “Epidural analgesia for labor may be used as part of a TOLAC.” I mean, I was jaw-droppingly shocked because it's at least two decades since that myth about, “Oh, we can't give you an epidural because then we won't know if there is scar separation.” So that is totally bogus. But let's get to the, “You have to have an epidural.” The thing about that is that there are two problems, I think. First of all, the idea is in case there is an emergency, we can deal with it faster. The thing is, an epidural is problematic in a couple of ways. One is, one of the more common side effects of an epidural is that there is a drop in the mother's blood pressure and the baby's heart rate. Guess what is the best predictor that the scar has given way? The number one predictor that the scar has given way– and again, in most of those cases, it hasn't but nonetheless, it's a better predictor than pain, is the baby's heart rate. You are adding, number one, something that will possibly provoke concern and a Cesarean you don't need. But the other thing is that it interferes with mobility. I think the number one reason– I mean, you want everything in your favor in terms of making good progress and an epidural interferes with that. Plus, you then have the problem of epidural fever because obviously, they want to give you that epidural early. You'd maybe have it for hours and then you'd start to develop a fever and they'd be like, “Mmm, it's time to get the baby out.” An epidural actually decreases your chance of a VBAC. But about the emergency piece, the thing is if you have a sterile water lock where you've got the business end of the IV, the needle is there but it's not hooked up to anything. Meagan: Are you talking about the “just in case” epidurals? Henci: Right, the “We want you to have an epidural because of the emergency possibility. We'll already have you anesthetized.” We first talked about, “We've given you a procedure that may lead to an unnecessary Cesarean,” and they decreased your probability of progressing to a vaginal birth. So that's already like, “Umm, really? Do you want to do that to me? Why?” The answer is, “Well, in case there's an emergency.” You can do a spinal a lot faster than an epidural. It is perfectly possible to get you numb within a very short period of time and sufficient to do the Cesarean surgery. It really is kind of bogus. Meagan: Yeah. I want to talk about this too because if it is a true, serious, serious surgery where we've got minutes if that, we're going to usually be put under general anesthesia. Henci: Well, that's a possibility too. Meagan: Yeah, so that's the thing. Henci: The other thing is that I also want to move into that gray zone of, well, I just talked about the drawbacks of having an epidural, but I mentioned that there's a fair number of members of your audience who are thinking, “I'd really like to have an epidural.” For some of them, depending on what their first labor was like, it may have been like, “I can only contemplate VBAC if I can also contemplate having an epidural.” This is where my new book comes in. The full title is, Labor Pain, What's Your Best Strategy? Get the Data. Make a Plan. Take Charge of Your Birth. In that book, I give all of the evidence, pros, and cons of all of the different other methods of do-it-yourself comfort measures to epidurals and then the last chapter is again, the fork in the road. You would like to avoid an epidural and here are all the ways of doing that, and you would like you plan an epidural. You want to make an epidural plan A and then here are all of the ways of maximizing your chances of having one that goes smoothly. I don't think I need to go into all of the details here on the show, but if anybody is interested in finding out more about the pros and cons of their pain-coping options including epidurals and how to plan to avoid an epidural if it is plan A or the reverse, then I think my book could be helpful. Meagan: That is amazing. Just to let you guys know, we're going to have so many things in our show notes here. We're going to have, of course, the blog with all of the numbers going deeper into what we're talking about today. We're going to have a link to all of her books because I think it is important to know things from all of them. Henci: I mean, I would actually stop you because I think Thinking Women's Guide was a great book. It was published in 1999. Meagan: Yeah, so it's a little older. It's a little dated. Henci: Optimal Care was really intended for birth professionals. Meagan: We have a lot of birth professionals. Henci: Even that was in 2012. Meagan: We have a lot of birth professionals listening. Henci: So I really want to preface the new book. It's been out less than a year so it's really current. Meagan: Mhmm. We're definitely going to have that number one. I haven't read it yet, so I'm going to read it myself because I think it's important too. I know you and I trust you but I want to know even more so I can keep referring it out and also learn by reading it myself. Henci: Yeah, I think you'll get some ideas for your classes. Meagan: Yeah, for my clients, and keep referring them out. I mean, you guys. The more information you have, the better. The more knowledge that you have under your belt as you are entering into these births, it's going to help you along the way. It's going to help you feel more prepared, more educated, and more confident. Right, Henci? Don't you feel like confidence is something that no matter what, VBAC or not, just with birth in general that we need? Henci: That's why the name of my new series– I'm working on a book on induction– is Take Charge of Your Birth. You can't take control of your birth because you don't know what's going to happen. Life happens. But you can take charge in terms of having the information, having thought through what is really important to you, and there is actually research on this. Feeling in charge is the key component in having a positive experience. If you felt helpless, if you felt like you didn't have any say in what was going on and you were scared and you didn't feel supported, you could have a lovely, uneventful vaginal birth and be traumatized. If you were in charge, you were a full participant in all of the decisions, you felt like your options were presented, you made the best choices you could, the people around you were encouraging and supportive of what you were trying, and you could have a very difficult experience in terms of what actually happened and it would still be a positive experience. Trauma is a very personal experience. It's what you feel in the moment. No one can say of you that you shouldn't have been traumatized by that birth because it wasn't traumatic enough. It's subjective. Meagan: Right. Right. Henci: But as a whole, feeling like you are in charge is powerful.Meagan: It's really powerful and there are actual stats behind that. My second birth didn't go the way I desired. I still to this day believe that I wasn't allowed enough time or wasn't given enough resources that I deserved. But at the same time, once the decision was made to have a second Cesarean, a repeat Cesarean, there were a lot of things that I communicated. I took charge at this moment. “If this is how it's going to go, this is what I need and want.” My providers were really receptive to that. With my second Cesarean, although still not desired at all or even felt that it was necessary, I actually have a very different viewpoint on it because I was actively involved in that birth and in the decisions that were being made. Again, even though I didn't feel that the decision that I made for the repeat Cesarean was really warranted, it was a decision that I made. I accept that. The other decisions along the way, I literally can look back at that birth and say that it was healing. A lot of people are like, “Wait, what? You're saying that you didn't want your second C-section but it was healing?” I can say, “Yeah, absolutely. It was healing because I was able to really participate in this birth in a different way.” I just think it's so powerful because I could have looked back with a lot of anger and hate. I probably could have beat myself up even more, but I viewed that as a positive, healing experience. I think that's what I needed to end my C-section journey. I needed that birth to say, “Okay. This is a better experience. I'm ending the C-section journey now. VBAC from here on out, but I needed this experience to have a different view on the C-section experience as a whole.”Henci: I think I heard something else which is key and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like when you agreed to the second Cesarean, you were making the best decision that you could at that time. You still had a decision. It sounds like you weren't sort of bullied into the repeat Cesarean. It sounds like there was a discussion and you felt like, “Yeah, I think I'll go along with the repeat.” I think that's key too is when you do make a decision and it is your decision and you can own it, I think that helps too because later, you can say, “You know, if I were in that same spot again, I might do something different. I've learned something from that. But you know what? That was also what made sense to me at the time and now I can let go of it.”Meagan: Yeah, you know, when I got my op reports when I was going to interview all of the providers for my VBAC after two Cesarean baby, which I wasn't even pregnant, but I started interviewing before, I was reviewing my op reports. As I was reading them, I did get a little triggered and I got a little bit angry. My husband looked at me as I had a tear rolling down my face saying, “These were unnecessary.” He said, “Babe? We made the best choice we knew at the moment with the information that was given to us at the moment.” Henci: Mhmm. Meagan: He said, “Do not ever shame yourself for making these choices because you were not given the information and you were not in a space mentally where you could be in that– oh, the statistics say–”. Right? That's one of the reasons why I think doulas are so important because they can help remind you of those things, but I wasn't in a space where I could go through my journal of information and say, “Oh, but this and this.” I was given these facts, this information, and I made a choice based off of the information that I was given. I can never shame myself for that. When he said that, I was like, “You know what? You're right.” I would go back and do things differently if I were to look back. If I were there again, I probably would have made different choices or I would have done different things, but I'm loving the journey that those experiences have given me and brought me to. Does that make sense? Henci: Yes. Meagan: This journey that I'm on right now, I probably wouldn't be on if I didn't have those experiences. I wouldn't be with all of you here today talking about VBAC and repeat Cesarean and what the evidence shows and sharing these absolutely amazing stories and bringing on these incredible professionals without those experiences. So yeah. I had two births that I didn't desire the outcome of the Cesarean, but I will be forever and ever grateful for those experiences. Henci: I will add that I wouldn't be who I was here today if I hadn't had an emotionally very negative experience. I talk about that in the prefaces of who I am today and why I wrote the book and the difference between my first birth and how I experienced my second. Well, the first one, I was delivered. The second one, I gave birth. That in a nutshell is the difference between the two and that started me on my journey. I wanted other women and birthing people to know that the choices that they made were crucial to how they were going to end up feeling about themselves, their partners, their babies, and their everything, that it was not trivial, and making my life's work looking at the research, because that's my skill so that they would have that information. Information that I didn't have until I started reading stuff after my first delivery. Meagan: Yeah. That's how a lot of us doulas and birth professionals start based on an experience where we want to help people have a different experience. We want to empower people. Henci: I'm so glad that you're in the world. It sounds like you are doing a great service for a lot of people out there. Meagan: Aww, well thank you so much, and likewise. You are incredible. All of your blogs are amazing. Seriously, people could spend hours and hours and hours on your blogs just picking apart the information and the stats and putting these large studies into English because honestly, that's one of the hardest things about studies. You go through and you're like, “I don't even know what this means. Can I just get a clear conclusion?” But your blogs make sense. They're English to me. Henci: Oh, thank you. Meagan: I know they will be for so many of our followers as well. Well, thank you so much for being here today. Seriously, I am so, so grateful. If you guys want to go follow Henci, like I said, we're going to have all of the links for all of the things in the show notes but you can also go onto Instagram and Facebook @takechargeofyourbirth.Henci: Yes. That is correct. Meagan: Or hencigoer.com. Henci: And actually, I think there are places on social media but if you go to hencigoer.com, you can also sign up for my newsletter. I have a monthly newsletter. Meagan: That's what I was just going to say, hencigoer.com. Like I said, we'll have this in the show notes. Go in there. Sign up for the newsletter. Sign up for all of the amazing things that she's putting out because you really are. You're a wealth of knowledge and it's really so fun and I'm so honored that you took the time today to be with us. Henci: Well, it's been my pleasure to be here. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Elizabeth Watson is a certified mindset and manifestation coach as well as an empathic intuitive. Working with moms who've let themselves get lost in everyone else's needs, and help them reclaim their power to live the life of their dreams.Through a unique blend of science-based techniques, 'whole-self healthy' life balance, and Spirit-led structure; she helps women find their belief in themselves. Feel empowered to make the changes they've longed for, and ultimately transform their lives!This process works because it is all the same tools she's used to battle infertility, lose over 100 lbs, emerge from severe clinical depression without medication, and pursue a career that is her calling!As a wife and homeschooling mom of three, she keeps busy. Yet she's learned over time that it's vital to include care for all aspects of a healthy mind, body, and spirit. It is her privilege and honor to share this with others!! Overview of our chat:2 blissful births and 1 unexpected c-sectionHow every birth experience can be dramatically differentThe importance of birth education for you and your partnerHow mindset work can help with better outcomesHonoring yourself as a person because you're not "just a mom"Self-care no matter what season you're in Connect with Elizabeth  ⤵️Instagram: @thesurrealdawnFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheSurrealDawnEmail: thesurrealdawn@gmail.comDon't forget to subscribe to the Birth Junkie Podcast for more empowering conversations and insights on all things birth-related.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------       Let's Connect!✨ The Birth Junkie Website: www.birthingcometrue.com/thebirthjunkiepodcast✨ Follow me on Instagram: @thebirthjunkiepodcast and @Birthing_Come_True✨  Free Discovery Call: Book Now!  ✨  Birth Education Course: The Sacred Birth Academy Resources: Free Overcome Your Birth Fears WorkbookFree 60-minute Painless Birth Video WorkshopFree VBAC Success GuideMindset Coaching✨ Check out the transcript here! Birth Education and Mindset Work For a Better Birth and Postpartum Journey!✨ If you'd like to be a guest: Fill this out!✨ A topic you'd like for me to dive into: Fill this out

In this eye-opening episode, Monica is joined by Dr. Sarah Buckley, a renowned GP and academic researcher specializing in oxytocin and maternal care. Together, they dive deep into the fascinating world of childbirth, sharing Sarah’s expertise on the physiological and emotional aspects of labor and birth, making for an essential listen for expectant mothers, their partners, and those supporting them. Sarah sheds light on the biological transformation of women’s bodies in pregnancy and birth. She emphasizes the importance of creating a safe, secure, and unobserved environment during labor to allow the birthing process to unfold. She points to the necessity of understanding that any interventions can create hormonal gaps in the essential feedback loop of hormones that are registered by the mother’s relationship between the brain and her womb and her ability to then bond with her baby, nurse, and more. Throughout their conversation, you’ll learn about the influence of oxytocin, specifically in labor, and how women can make an informed choice about their birth experiences only when they know and have the proper information. Sarah explains the hormonal gaps that can be created by interventions like epidural use, and c-sections and speaks to how women can close these gaps with knowledge. This episode challenges the current intervention-heavy focus in modern maternity care and encourages understanding alternative methods like home births, midwifery care, and doulas and why these might be important to consider. Topics discussed: The role of oxytocin in childbirth The importance of safety, privacy, and unobserved conditions in labor How the hormonal gap affects mothering Integrating feminine needs in the birthing process Entities mentioned: Dr. Sarah Buckley Personal birthing experiences Home births Midwifery care Doulas Epidurals Caesareans Oxytocin Special Guest: Dr. Sarah Buckely.

Are you ready to support your doula clients using the most powerful tool on your belt?In this episode, I am joined by my favorite author, Henci Goer. We are chatting about the impossibility of unbiased maternity care, and what you can do as a doula to help.To put it lightly, mainstream obstetric research can be… dodgy. It rarely considers the mother's well-being and is highly motivated by control, economic gains, and legal protection. Putting the research into mom's hands will give her the confidence to make evidence-based decisions during her birth experience, and give her a better chance at the birth outcome she has envisioned.Henci is an acknowledged expert on evidence-based maternity care, an award-winning medical writer, and an internationally known speaker. Her most well-known book is “Obstetric Myths Versus Research Realities,” which is used and referenced widely across the childbirth community. If you're tired of hearing doctors push their non-evidence-based opinions, then you'll wanna listen up!Visit Henci Goer's website: http://www.hencigoer.com/ Resources mentioned:>> Obstetric Myths Versus Research Realities >>The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth>>Optimal Care in Childbirth: The Case for a Physiologic ApproachReady to turn your passion for birth into a crazy successful doula career? I've got you. Click here and join me inside Birthworker Academy.If this episode lights you up, I'd love it if you'd rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening from. After you review the show - snap a pic and upload it here - and I'll send you a little surprise as a thank you.Your feedback helps this podcast grow, and I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you!Are you feeling the call to Birthwork? I've got you covered! DM me “Impact” on Instagram and I'll share the details on how to get started. Ready to turn your in-person doula business into a crazy successful online business, too? I've got you. Click here and join me inside the Birthworker Membership. Don't forget to check out the blog post at www.birthworker.com/xyz or follow along over on Instagram at @birthworkerpodcast for more. If these topics light you up, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening from. After you review the show - snap a pic and upload it here - and I'll send you a little surprise as a thank you. Your feedback helps this podcast grow and I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you!

Erin, founder of Better Birth.  offers support to expectant parents internationally, hosting online and in person antenatal and hypnobirthing courses. Her passion is dispelling societal beliefs that birth is dangerous or a medical event, and empowering parents to make informed and confident decisions on how and where they want to birth their babies.Find Erin Here https://www.instagram.com/betterbirthuk/Find me here https://www.instagram.com/hannahpalamarahonestly/https://www.hannahpalamarabirthphotography.com/Support the show

Today's episode is a bit of a heavy one. Dr Renee White is chatting with Dr Hazel Keedle about her 2022 publication detailing the obstetric violence experiences of women in Australia. Three key features came out of the study, the feeling of being dehumanized, violated and powerless. Listen in to hear more about how Dr Keedle devised and analysed the study and what the next steps are in her research. Dr Hazel Keedle, PhD, is a Senior Lecturer of Midwifery at The School of Nursing and Midwifery, Western Sydney University. Hazel has more than two decades of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator and researcher. Hazel's research interests are vaginal birth after caesarean, birth trauma and maternity experiences explored primarily using feminist mixed methodologies. Hazel's work is recognised nationally and internationally, with many invited conference and seminar presentations including, academic publications and a book for women based on her PhD findings ‘Birth after Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth'. Hazel is the lead researcher on the largest maternity experiences survey, The Birth Experience Study.Read the study on Obstetric ViolenceLearn more about Dr Hazel KeedleBuy Dr Hazel Keedle's Book: Birth After CaesareanIf this topic is triggering for you and need to reach out to someone, you can call Lifeline: 131114PANDA: 1300 726 306Learn more about Dr Renee White and Fill Your Cup Postpartum Doulas:Want to be nurtured and nourished after the birth of your baby, have a peek at our doula offerings.If you want to gobble up our famous Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies, look no further.

Giving birth is a powerful moment in a woman's life. As a birth doula for over a decade, I've witnessed hundreds of women walk into their new role as mothers as they welcome their children into the world. The biggest goal of a doula is for the expecting woman to feel fully supported, informed, heard, and respected during her pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. We want her to have the birth experience she ultimately desires because that's what every mother deserves. With knowledge and support, we believe she can take charge of her birth and feel empowered in her birthing time. A woman who I've admired in my doula journey, who is well respected in the birthing world, and who has been empowering mothers for decades, is Henci Goer. I am overjoyed that she has joined us on our podcast today! Who is Henci Goer? Henci is the author of four books: Optimal Care in Childbirth: The Case for a Physiologic Approach (co-author Amy Romano MSN, CNM), The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth (which is one of my top books to read during pregnancy), Obstetric Myths Versus Research Realities, and her latest book Labor Pain: What's Your Best Strategy? In addition, she has written numerous blog posts and articles, given lectures around the world, and received multiple awards for her work. Henci's passion and life's work provide pregnant women with what they need to make decisions about their care: complete and accurate information, presented neutrally, on the pros and cons of all their options. In her efforts, Henci wants to be a resource, not a guide, and instead of leading, she wants to have your back. Today, Henci is chatting with us about optimal birth care. Instead of offering instruction on what constitutes optimal care and how to obtain it, she wants to help empower women to take charge of their births. Her goal is to help expecting moms figure out what is right for them and how to get it. Listen to this episode to hear her story and her best advice!

We are honored to have Dr. Hazel Keedle join us today all the way from Australia! Hazel is the author of Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. She has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician both in nursing and midwifery, an educator, and a published researcher. Her work remains rooted in her desire to strengthen and empower women.Hazel tells us how her own VBAC birth journey lit a fire that led to the completion of her doctorate degree and her book. Everything in her book is ESSENTIAL for VBAC-hopeful mamas and is all backed with evidence-based research.We know you will LOVE listening to Hazel. She is so gracious and such an invaluable asset to the birth world. This episode is a must-listen and her book is most definitely a must-read for all!Additional linksBirth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle, PhDHazel's Instagram: @hazelkeedleHazel's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VBACmattersSarah's Instagram: @sarah_marie_bilger or @entering_motherhoodHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: You guys are listening to The VBAC Link and I'm so excited for today's episode. We have Hazel Keedle today. She's in Australia and it's 1:00 a.m. She stayed up all night just to be with us today on this podcast. So grateful for her. We're going to be time sensitive so we can make sure to get her tucked into bed at a somewhat reasonable hour, but guess what? Today, we have a co-host. A co-host! I'm so excited to start bringing on some co-hosts here and there. Today, we have Sarah and she is one of our VBAC doulas. I'm so excited to have her with us today. Review of the WeekMeagan: Sarah is going to actually do the honors of reading you a review. So go ahead, Sarah. Sarah: Hi, yeah. I'm glad to be here. We have a review from Katelyn Bayless. This one is from google and it says, “I honestly can't recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I'm not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. “I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can't tell y'all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, today's episode is going to have some more resources for you for sure. Hazel Keedle, PhDMeagan: We are coming to you from The VBAC Link. We have a guest from Australia. We're so excited to have her. We're so, so excited. We actually just connected here. We are connecting for the first time, I should say today, but Hazel, our guest today, just connected with us about a week or two ago. You guys, she is so amazing. It's 1:00 a.m. and she is in Australia recording right now, so I just want to give her a huge shoutout and thank you for being with us at 1:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. I told her I probably would have been, “Nope. Let's find another time,” but here she is. She is so dedicated at 1:00 a.m. recording with us and I cannot wait to share with you this wonderful, wonderful human being. We are going to jump right into it because again, it's 1:00 a.m. I don't want to take too much time but I wanted to introduce her quickly. This is Hazel Keedle. She is a lecturer of midwifery and completed her PhD in 2021 at Western Sydney University in Australia. Hazel has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. Her research is – it might as well be 1:00 here Hazel. Hazel: You're doing great.Meagan: Her research is recognized internationally and focuses on midwifery practice, education, and women's experience in maternity care. Hazel is passionate about improving support for women during pregnancy, birth, and early transition to mothering. She is amazing. Right here in my very hands, I am holding a book that she wrote. It's called Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. I definitely am going to suggest this and we are going to talk more about her book here in just a minute, but again, I don't want to take too much of her time so we are going to jump right into it and turn the time over to you to share all of your wonderful knowledge and of course, your story. Hazel: Sure, okay. Well, thank you for having me here. I really don't mind waiting up for you. Okay, so yeah. My name is Hazel Keedle and I'm originally from the U.K., but I moved to Australia 20 years ago now with a backpack and I never left. I came over here as a nurse and then I trained to be a midwife while I was here. I was kind of destined. My granny was a midwife in England and she told me that I would be one, so I followed what she said and I became a midwife here. And then, I wasn't particularly interested in vaginal birth after Cesarean at that point. I was just trying to get my head around what being a midwife was and what it meant. I quickly met my husband during my UgradG* as a midwife. We quite quickly got together and had a baby which was a planned home birth but ended up that he was being breech and I ended up having an emergency Cesarean because in my area at the time– this was 15 years ago– there wasn't anyone who supported breech vaginal birth. I knew that I would have to have a Cesarean. I didn't have a great experience and I didn't do too well with my health afterward. But then, which was not planned at all, I got pregnant again very quickly. There were only 4 months between my Cesarean and getting pregnant. When I did find out, which was a few months after that, so I was breastfeeding, I had to think about what I was going to do and I really didn't want to have a Cesarean. My whole first experience was the most hospitalized home birth you can have. I had pneumonia at 34 weeks with my first and then I had a Cesarean and I had mastitis and a childhood fever, so I was in the hospital three times. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Hazel: I was really sick and I really did not want to go through that again, but I also wasn't sure if I would get support to have a VBAC because there would be 13 months between them or 14 months, I thought, at that point. I did lots of reading. I was a midwife by this point and I dug my head into the numbers. I read the only book that was out there which was The Silent Knife which as you know, is very old and it was very old then, but it was really good at getting me the statistics. I then dated my reading. For a whole weekend, I shut myself in a room and just read and read and read and read. I came out of it freaked out because a paper had come out that year that said if it was less than 6 months between a Cesarean and conception, then you had a 2.7% chance of uterine rupture compared to less than 1%. I got a bit freaked out by those numbers. I came up to my hubby who is a very rational numbers man and I said, “I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't have a VBAC.” I told him the numbers and he said, “You've got over a 97% chance of everything being fine.” I was like, “Well, yeah.” It was more dangerous and get in a car and drive to the hospital. Why don't you just go for a VBAC?I adopted his idea and I thought that it was a great idea. I became dedicated to having a VBAC at that point. I didn't realize at the time it would shape my future career and life goals, but I stuck my head in the sand. I avoided antenatal care to be honest because I didn't want to hear the negativity but I was a midwife, so I was able to get someone to listen to my baby and did my blood pressure every time I went to work. I did plan a home birth for my VBAC, but all of my team couldn't be there at the time, so I transferred in. I had to fight during my labor. There was just lots of coercion, lots of “you must have your baby by 4:00 or you're going into a Cesarean”, and I had to just keep fighting. It was so hard to keep fighting when you are in labor. They also knew I was a midwife. I trained there, so I couldn't understand why I had to fight so hard. And then I actually pushed her out of my vagina at 4:00 on the dot. Meagan: Oh my gosh, no way. Hazel: Yeah. The time they were going to take me into theater was her birth time. It was amazing. I didn't know I could feel that high after doing something that was so hard, but I did and it left me with a couple of questions when I looked back and reflected on how I felt. First of all, I wondered if there were any other women who felt as amazing as I did. I really was on cloud nine. I felt like I was healed and that all of the medical stuff I had after my first was gone. But with that came a question of how does any other woman in Australia manage to have a VBAC with that much drama and with that much negativity during labor?Meagan: Yeah and pressure. Hazel: Yeah and I was a midwife. I could see through it, but how did other women who didn't have that knowledge? So I was left with those questions. I was at a community forum. We had a lot of access issues up here to our local maternity and there were lots of petitions and community action. I went over to one of the forums. I shared my VBAC story in that forum and there was a professor of midwifery there who said, who I'd never met before, “You know, you're a midwife. I think you should research this.” I stayed in contact and then about a year later, I started doing research with her. She was my supervisor for both my Master's Honors and then my PhD. Now, we work together on a lot of projects. So yeah. It was sharing my story in that location that started my research career. Well, I think having a VBAC started my research career but that started my formal research career. Now I'm here. She's about to turn 14 and I have done a Master's, a PhD, five or so papers on VBAC, maybe more, and written a book. So that's my story in a nutshell. Meagan: Those are amazing things. And written a book. It's so funny because you were like, “Yeah, it started,” but I think it had been with you for a while and then that inspired you and gave you the extra oomph. It was like, “Now I've gone through this and experienced this. How can I change this? How can I change this for everyone else?” I always had this desire for birth and a passion for babies. I would have wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse, and then I had my first C-section and was like, “Oh. That wasn't really what I wanted or what I envisioned.” Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then after my second, learning more about doulas and birth, and really the options, then also going through that second Cesarean, although it was healing and everything, just having a different experience, I was like, “Yeah. This is what I'm doing. This is what I want to do.” It's like it was always in you and it was always in me, but these experiences that we've had have lit the first. Hazel: Yeah, it became the drive. I've always been interested in research. I got an Honors degree when I was a nurse back in London, and so I had a bit of a passion for research and for reading research, but I think you have to have that real drive and reason for going on such a big path. And yeah, definitely. For me, it was not even how amazing I felt. It was just that question of, did other women feel that? Is it hard for everyone?There was one point when I had stayed overnight. I wish I hadn't. I wish I had gone straight home, but I had been coerced to stay overnight in the hospital. Midwives would be coming in and saying, “Are you the VBAC woman?” I thought, “What is this? Is this a zoo and I'm a prized animal that they are coming in to stare at?” It made me think that it actually was quite rare then to have a VBAC here. It was really so rare that they had to come in and go, “Are you the VBAC woman?”Meagan: “Are you the VBAC woman?” Yes. Hazel: Yeah. But I hadn't learned much about it in my training. I was working in the low-risk units, so we didn't offer VBAC in the hospital I was working in, so it was quite a rarity for me as well. Meagan: Yes. So tell me more about VBAC in Australia. Tell me more about what it's looking like, what it's seeming like, and what you've learned through all of your education. I would love to know. We talked about this in the beginning. I'm just here in Utah. We are actually very fortunate. We have a high VBAC rate here. I mean, Cesarean rates are still through the roof in general in my own opinion, but we still have a higher VBAC rate and we still have to fight for it. It isn't as uncommon, but I'd love to know more about your research and what you're seeing there in Australia. Hazel: Yeah. So what is your VBAC rate, out of interest, in Utah?Meagan: I'm trying to remember the exact. I will look it up. Hazel: I'm trying to think that the US in general is about 12% isn't it the last time I checked the numbers?Meagan: Yeah, that does sound right. Hazel: Interestingly, I do a lot of presentations on VBAC. When you look across the world, they really do vary from Finland with, I have a 50%, down to across to you guys at 12%. We match you. We actually don't have the high European numbers. We have 12% as well. Meagan: It says 23.9%. Hazel: Okay, so that's pretty good. I wish we had that. Meagan: Yeah, so it says in 2020, well, oh my gosh. 21.3% were Cesarean, but vaginal birth after Cesarean from 2017-2020 in Utah averages 23.9% overall. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then it breaks it down within the cities here. Hazel: Which is pretty good. I mean, I know that's not consistent across the U.S. because the national number comes right down. We do have varieties over here and those varieties are down to the model of care and access. So here in Australia, we have a public maternity system or a public hospital system that is paid through the taxpayer. In that system, where everyone gets free health care, they will be able to access a few different models depending on what's available in their area. They might have a midwifery group practice where they could see the same midwife throughout and there would be a few of them that were on call for free. It's part of the hospital service, but that is relatively new. That has really been rising in the last few years as the health services are increasing those models. We have the standard antenatal care which is where women see whichever midwife is on duty or whichever doctor is on duty and whoever is in the labor ward will look after them during labor and whoever is on the ward would look after them postnatally. We call it “standard care” but we also call it “fragmented care” because you see somebody different all of the time. Then we have– so outside of the hospital system, we have some smaller ones for first nations women, and for migrant women, there are some specific models as well. But then outside of the hospital system, we do have privately practicing midwives who are able to prescribe medications, get some money back from Medicare, and offer home birth services. Some of them also have visiting rights in hospitals. That is more state specific. We have more ** there than in any other state here in Australia for the visiting rights. Meagan: So then are you able to come over if a transfer were needed to happen and things like that, they could come over and perform their care? Hazel: Yeah, they could have an agreement with the local hospital, but that's a growing thing and it's more popular in some states than in others. Where I am, which is New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, there's only really one hospital that offers that in such a very big state. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: And then we also have the private hospital as well where you would be through a private obstetrician. You would get that continuity, but it's obstetric care, not midwifery care. You may or may not see a midwife during your antenatal period and then you will have midwives along in the labor ward or in the private hospital, but with the private obstetrician you signed up for. So we've got a few different models of care and what we do know from the studies that have been done, the VBAC rates do vary across those models of care. They are higher with privately practicing midwives, so a lot of women who choose home birth are choosing it after a Cesarean and that's what I did my first study on which was their experiences. Then we have good rates in midwifery models of care such as the midwifery group practices and then we have low rates in private hospitals. They have higher repeat Cesarean rates and a lower VBAC rate in private hospitals with continuity of obstetric care. That's really how it looks. But obviously, we are a very big country with a lot of areas in between, so we will have hospitals that maybe don't offer birthing services, but a lot of our remote communities are a bit like Canada where all of them, I say in areas of Canada, they have some birthing in-country services. We are still a bit behind on that, so it really is a variety of services, but in most metropolitan hospitals, you'd get a private model, a public model, and midwifery models within that. Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I wish so badly that I had the capabilities or I guess I was in a time in my life where I didn't have little, like little kids, where I could bounce around to not only different states but different countries and somehow observe birth and learn birth around the world. That is this dream of mine that I could understand birth from all areas other than just little Utah here. I have a doula partner who just came from Texas and birth is so different here in Utah than it is in Texas. What you're describing is so different. Obviously, there are similarities all around. We hear all of these stories and there are definite similarities. It's birth, but the way care is and everything, so yeah. One day. One day maybe I'll be able to bounce around in life, but I love hearing that. Hazel: That's right because only then you're limited then to really what is published and so some other countries that have higher VBAC rates– just across from us is New Zealand where they have a midwifery model of care and the numbers we can get from them, they don't have national data on this, they seem to have much higher VBAC rates to us, but then they aren't published very much on it, so it's really hard to know. Unless you're there, it's hard to get a sense of what's going on. Meagan: What's really going on, what they're doing, and why do they have such a high rate? Hazel: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Other than maybe midwifery care. Hazel: There are some studies out there, especially in Europe, there are some studies that looked into the culture and how different that is, but not enough. Not enough to really give us an idea. Meagan: Absolutely. So, Ms. Hazel, I would love for you to share more about your book too. You have so many amazing things in this book. I'm going to hurry and just flip over to the table of contents, but it reminds me a lot about our VBAC course. It covers so many incredible things, these topics. Obviously, your VBAC journey is in there, your research journey which I think is amazing, your PhD journey, birth trauma, and experiences and symptoms of birth trauma which are so important. We don't talk about that enough. Seeking help and debriefing– again, something we don't talk about enough. How to access debriefing. I don't know if you want to cover any of that, but that's so important right there. You have so many things in this book. Do you want to cover some of your highlights? Sarah and I are both here in the states, but we would love to know more about this amazing book. By the way, listeners, we're going to have a link for this book if you want to purchase it and give it a read because it's going to be amazing for you. I promise you. Hazel: Oh thank you. Well, my publishers are in the U.S., so when I was writing it I very much had the U.S. in mind, Australia, and the U.K., so even when I looked at any resources in the book, I tried to find U.S. ones as well. Meagan: Yeah, I noticed. YOu have some Lamaze and everything in here. You have tables of words broken down and it does have U.S. things. That is something, I think, that is so amazing because a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. so it's super nice to be able to read something and have some resources for here where they are. Hazel: Yeah. The idea behind the book was I was towards the end of my Ph.D. journey and I used a methodology called feminist critical theory. Part of that is that you give back your research. You get your research. You get your data from women in the community, but you want to give back to transform that culture for the better. When I was really evaluating, “Well, how do I do that?” When I was writing my thesis, I was like, “Well, how am I giving back to my community?” I had research papers and I know people read research papers. You guys do and then you translate that evidence into your doula course. A lot of people do that. But I thought, “Maybe that's not everyone.” When I did my Australian VBAC survey, I asked what kind of resources people used, and there was a real want to have more books out there. I wondered if I could have this crazy pipe dream of writing a book and then I had the opportunity to do that, so I submitted my thesis in the October and by the December, I had signed a book contract. I was really keen while it was all fresh in my head to get it all out and down on paper.I think lockdowns were in my favor because I had to take leave because it was building up. I couldn't go anywhere so it was like, “Well, I will just sit and write this book then.” That's really how I used my time to do it. I put it together as my findings of my PhD. One of the first papers I wrote on my PhD journey was looking at all of the evidence that was out there. The title of the paper was, “The journey from pain to power.”That was a thread that went through all of my PhD journey. When I was then looking at, “Well, how do I write this book?” The term “journey” was very high up there. I thought, “Well, I go on that journey from pain to power.” That first thing is that pain and that is that previous Cesarean. One of the things I found out from my studies was that usually in the community, we have about a third of women say “yes” to experiencing birth trauma. That's the full state of birth trauma which includes psychological birth trauma. When I asked that question in my VBAC surveys– so all of these women have had at least one previous Cesarean– that was ⅔ of women that suggested birth trauma. We already know we have a highly traumatized group of women who have had a previous Cesarean, so that's why I started with that. I think it's really important. It certainly is. I was a home birth midwife for many years. I know you need to work that out and talk about it, and debrief about it before. You've got to work at that past to be able to look forward to the future. Meagan: Yeah. Well, and even recognizing it. Hazel: Yeah, that's a great one. Meagan: Sometimes, it's hard to recognize that you look at your experience as traumatic because I feel like so many times, we are mentally trained to tell ourselves, “Oh, we had a safe and healthy baby, so no. It's fine.” They suppress their trauma down. They're like, “No, I was fine. It's fine.”Sarah: We're led to believe that as well. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's why I really brought in quotes and what it can look like for women and quotes from the stories that had been shared with me for people to go, “Maybe that is what I experienced. Maybe those symptoms are what I am experiencing.” I start that chapter off with, “Go grab yourself, in pure English style, go grab yourself a cup of tea and a chocolate bar because this chapter will be tough,” just to recognize that this might not be the easiest one. It might not be where people want to start off with. They might go back to that. But yes. I started off with that pain and then I used what I found through my PhD and what I did in my qualitative. So in my PhD, I had qualitative and that moved into quantitative. So the qualitative is all of the feelings, experiences, and exploration, and then the quantitative is all of the stats and the numbers. When I did the qualitative, what I did was I had this crazy idea of designing an app. Women, after their appointments with their healthcare provider, would come home and record their experiences on the app. They would do that after every appointment and then I interviewed them afterward as well. I had some really rich data. I had 52 recordings. I'm so grateful to those women. I'll be forever indebted to those women. Then I had all of these interviews as well, so I had these really rich stories. We use that term in qualitative is rich data. Sarah: These were appointments leading up to their birth or after in the postpartum period after their Cesarean? Hazel: Right, this is during their pregnancy. Sarah: Okay.Hazel: So they were planning to have a VBAC. That's what their plan was and then they would go and see their healthcare providers and then they would do recordings for me. They were given some prompts and questions, but it became very organic like it was more like a journal. They would start going, “Hi, Hazel. I'm so many weeks now and this is what just happened.” It was a really novel way. The research hadn't been done like that before, so it was really interesting. What I was able to do was a narrative analysis which was comparing all of their stories against each other to look for commonalities and differences. What I found is that there were these four factors that impacted how they felt after the birth because I interviewed them all after the birth as well. Those four factors, if they were really positive on those four factors across them and they had a cumulative effect. One had an impact on the other. They felt better about their birth experience regardless of the birth experience. If they felt lower on those four factors, they were more devastated after their birth experience.It didn't mean that those who had a vaginal birth didn't feel more positive than those that had a repeat Cesarean because it kind of was that as well, but there was a lot of resolution that could come when you had a repeat Cesarean, and felt higher in those factors. Those factors are then what I go into in the book. There's a chapter dedicated to each one of those factors. They are having control, so having control over your choices, your wishes, and your birth outcomes. Then there's having confidence, so having confidence in your ability to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but also, having confidence in your healthcare providers' belief in you. That was quite surprising for me how pertinent that was. Women really wanted that. It makes sense, doesn't it? You really want that person to believe in you and believe that you can do what it is that you want to do. And then there's having a relationship, so that was the relationship that you have with your healthcare provider whether that's one that is developed such as continuity of care or whether it's with a different person each time, and even then, not all continuity is the same and that really came out in the study. And then the last one is being active in labor. That seemed a bit of a strange one to add on, but women who felt they were really able to do everything that they wanted to do during labor and birth, being as active as they could, as upright as they could, felt better after their birth experience. If they then ended up with a repeat Cesarean, then they still felt very positive because they had done everything that they could compared to not having the opportunity to be upright and vocalizing that. Meagan: Yes, yes. We have found that. I have found that personally in my group of doulas. We have found that even if it doesn't end the way they want, there are bumps and curves. It's labor and birth, but along the way, if they felt like they were in charge and were able to be in the positions they wanted and call the shots a little bit more, overall after, they felt immensely more positive and happy about their experience. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's it. In the book then, I really go into what they all mean. The control chapter might take some people by surprise because I actually know a lot of women, especially when they are reflecting on their previous Cesarean which may have been, let's just take probably the most common example these days. Induction, they're having their first baby, they get close to the date, post dates, they get encouraged to have an induction. The induction doesn't quite go to plan. They have a cascade of interventions and have a Cesarean. When they are then planning for the next birth before or during the pregnancy, one of the common themes is getting armed with knowledge. It's like, “Okay. Now I need to know everything about labor, birth, and pregnancy. I really want to be able to call the shots.” There's a bit of grieving in that time of, “Why did I say yes? Why didn't I say no?” A bit of self-blame. I think as women, we are kind of hardwired to blame ourselves for everything, especially blaming our bodies because we are never quite right. The media never lets us think we are right because we are either too big or too small or our boobs are not quite right or whatever. Meagan: Right.Hazel: There's nothing to make us feel better and then we blame ourselves for not being able to stand up against the patriarchal medical system. I actually start the control chapter looking at the impact of the patriarchy in medicine and especially in obstetrics and how the different waves of feminism have impacted that and also the impact of reproductive justice which is something that is obviously very important in the U.S., but also over here with our host nations' women and migrant communities that have come to Australia. I look at all of that and really frame it to go, “You know, it's actually not your fault. It's actually really hard to stand up for yourself and say no when you are at the bottom of a really oppressive ladder.” Not to come and say, “Well, you can't do anything,” because then I explore all of the ways of what you can do to help that and actually how you need all of those factors together to really build your position. But almost to take that guilt off and also understand where we've got to today with a hospital-based maternity system, why it is like it is, and the impact of all of those different changes in society that have got to where we are today. So yeah. Those are the different chapters. Some of them have activities that you can do. There are a few guess righters in there. And then one of my favorite parts, probably because I didn't have to write it, but I put a Facebook post out and asked for women who had any VBAC stories that they wanted to print in the book. I wanted a VBAC with just something a little bit different or complicated risk or whatever. I have got 12 stories of women from around the world including the U.S. who've had VBAC with something a little bit different there. It might be after multiple Cesareans like your story or it might be at home or it might be with a larger body which, as we know, gets a lot of stigma in maternity care. There's one that is a VBAC after a uterine rupture. There's one after a classical scar. There are all of these different stories at the back of the book in full with pictures, but I also weaved them into some of the chapters earlier as well. I love those stories. Some are short. Some are in poem form and some are really long. I just kept them as they were and put them in the book. Just really so women can identify and go, “Maybe I'm not quite sure what Hazel is saying,” and then they get to that story and they are like, “Oh, actually I really relate to that person.”Meagan: Yeah. That's one of the reasons why we're here on The VBAC Link podcast, right? All of these stories, some of them you might not connect to as deeply, and then some you're like, “Oh my gosh. That's me. I felt that. I had that. That's my story. It's like they're taking it out of my own mouth.”Hazel: Absolutely. It is so important. Meagan: We've had that many times where it's like, “Whoa. That was almost creepy how similar those births were,” and then to be able to connect and be like, “But look. They went on and they did it. This is what they did.” It's so empowering. Just flipping through these beautiful pictures is absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning pictures. I'm sure these stories are going to, again, relate to so many people out there that may not even know that they're going to relate to them until they read them. Hazel: Yeah. I do mention in the– oh my gosh. I'm testing myself on which chapter that one's in now. I think it might be Confidence about really relating to stories and listening to podcasts. I mention that you really need to tap into your peers because we have very large social media groups now and pages to follow full of positive VBAC stories. That's important in there. I do also add there, it does say that the title is Birth After Cesarean. I do throughout the book look at, you are choosing the best birth for you. You need to prepare for both, but you may either have or choose a gentle Cesarean. There is a chapter in there as well about what a gentle Cesarean is, what evidence says, and maybe some of the things you might think of if you have a repeat Cesarean. There is that part of it as well because I explore how important it is to really if you're going to be in control of everything or have more control, then you have to be aware of all options that might happen and be able to still have the best birth for you regardless of that outcome. Meagan: Yeah. We just posted– we reposted I should say– from Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. I think that is how you say it. Hopefully, I'm not butchering her last name. She's from Australia actually. She's an OB and she posted this video of a gentle Cesarean where the mom was actively involved in giving birth to her baby with her own hands. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: For me in my Cesareans, both of them, my arms were strapped down in a T and after my second daughter was born, they undid the one arm and I did have skin-to-skin. I was able to hold her with that one arm, but watching this video was captivating. It's a 30-second thing, but I watched it probably 40 times because I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked at the mom. I looked at the baby. I looked at everyone around her. There was no curtain. She was able to be totally a part of her birth. I'm like, “Yes. This is what we need.” I literally texted a midwife here in Utah. I'm like “I know I'm a really small fish in a big ocean, but let me know if there's anything I can do from my end to start bringing this option to people.” We got so many messages after like, “Whoa. How can I get that? What do I need to do?” It looks like in Australia, there are multiple videos of this happening. Hazel: I will add that it's not common and it really does depend on who your OB is. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: But a few years ago, one of my dear friends did her PhD as a video ethnography of skin-to-skin in theater. She was videoing Cesareans and seeing really what happens to what enables skin-to-skin in theater and what doesn't. It was really fascinating. She was one of my PhD buddies. One of the Cesareans she saw was a gentle Cesarean with the woman reaching down to grab her baby. She wrote this beautiful article, but it was actually in a midwifery college magazine that doesn't exist anymore. I could say that she had written it, but I couldn't find my copy of it. I emailed because we are friends. I emailed her and I said, “Look. Do you have a PDF copy because I really want to read it?”She sent it to me. I read it. I wrote about it in that chapter and then I sent the chapter to her. I said, “Could you just read it to make sure that I've said all the right things?” because that's her expert area. She was happy with what I had written, so that was good. Yeah. It really is down to providers. But really, the more women that ask for it, the more pressure there will be to explore it. There are a lot of resources and videos out there now that can show people how to do it. Meagan: And how to do it and that it is possible. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: I think sometimes it's like, “No. That's impossible. It's a sterile environment. We can't have extra bodies in the operating room.” But look. Hazel: The woman's already there. There's not going to be an extra body. Meagan: Right. Hazel: And really, the ones that I've seen really, they will do the surgical scope with their hands. They will have double gloves on so when they get to the point of needing to reach down, they can take that first pair of gloves off, and then you've got the sterile ones on underneath. There are lots that can be done. Even just lowering the screen. There's often still a screen there, but it's lowered so they can reach down and then take the baby, and then it can go back up while they do the suturing. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Hazel: There are ways it can be done, but it's just having people understand why. I remember being in an OB's office with a client, a woman I was caring for. She was exploring her options after having a Cesarean. She mentioned having a gentle Cesarean. His attitude was, “Well, if I offer that, then nobody will want to plan a VBAC.” I was like, “That's actually not going to happen. Don't worry. It's just giving an option to women. Women still really want to have a vaginal birth after Cesarean. That's not going to go down. Your rates are not even that high anyways so don't stress. This is what you can do to support them.” But yeah. That was an excuse for not wanting to go there because it sounds a little bit too hard. Meagan: Mhmm. Sarah: Yeah. That just goes back to sharing our stories too because I feel like without sharing those experiences like we were saying, you're not going to know what your options are if you're not being informed about them. If others are doing this and more people are asking for it, then it's going to open that door and allow other people to be in control of what they want for their birth. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: And throughout the book, it really is based on evidence. I am a researcher with a very large library of articles and I did dive into them. Straight after the trauma chapter, I go into what the evidence is for the different choices. I have a really deep dive into uterine rupture and then what was meant to be part of a chapter actually ended up on its own which was Can I Have a VBAC If…? and then I look into different scenarios or issues that potentially people will say, “Can I have a VBAC if I've got this?”So that is all evidence-based with numbers and going through what current data is out there. Meagan: Right. There are a lot of percentages in your book. I love it. There are graphs. You may not think that this may impact care, but she has this, it's Figure 2 in the book. It's talking about the length of time for pregnancy appointments under different models of care. You may not right now think the length of an appointment matters, but I can tell you right now firsthand from experience that when I had with my VBAC kiddo, I switched care at 24 weeks. I had an OB and he was great. I seriously loved the guy. He's wonderful and I still think he's wonderful. But then I switched care to a midwifery model-based care. The difference between my visits and again, OBs will spend time, but for me, the difference between my visits was incredible. I actually looked forward, really looked forward to visits with my midwife. I was always greeted with a ginormous hug. She never walked in without giving me a big hug and saying, “How are you doing? Really, how are you?” and then would sit down. We would just have a discussion. She became my best friend. I could just open up to her. She spent quality time. For me, it really helped me as I was entering into this next stage of birth to feel confident in her. I was so comfortable because of all the time that she spent with me. Hazel: I love that. I do love that graph. That came out of my VBAC in Australia survey. We asked what model of care they had and then I asked, “What was the time spent at your appointments?” When we looked at the data, it was just so obvious that the shorter time frame, so maybe 5-15 minutes was certainly with obstetric-led care, and then the 20 minutes plus– certainly, with the privately practicing midwives it was more, and then an hour usually was with the midwifery models of care. That was important because relationships take time. In that relationship factor, you need to have someone by your side who understands your wishes and your trauma if you have some which, as I said, ⅔ of women did, and understands what you want, what you are planning for, and what you are hoping for. Just understanding you and how you tick. Certainly, in my years as a continuity of care midwife, in all models of care, you really, for me as a midwife, I really want to know the person that I'm caring for so that I can see those changes, those really subtle changes in behavior even during labor and also you can pick up when things really aren't quite right and that you might need an extra hug at that time or an extra kind word. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: That takes a lot of trust. Relationships in healthcare, I believe, should be based on trust and equity. That takes time. The very simple graph, there's no way I could have done an appointment in ten minutes because I have to have a cup of tea at least. There's no way I could drink a cup of tea in just five or ten minutes. So sit down, have a cup of tea, and learn about what's going on.The physical part, feeling the baby, the blood pressure, that you do at some point, but that to me, finding out what's going on for the woman and how she's feeling and what's going on with the family, that is far more important. That takes time. When we saw that in the graph format, it was like, “Oh perfect. That exactly shows what we are saying.” A relationship takes time. Most of us don't usually marry someone that we haven't really or get into a relationship with someone that we haven't spent a fair bit of time with and figured out whether we like them or not. We understand that those relationships are important. I think that when you are only doing something a few times in your life, but you will remember it for the rest of your life, then you really want to choose the team and the support people there. That includes your healthcare provider who completely knows you and completely understands where you've come from and where you want to go.Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I could talk to you until 4:00 a.m. in Australia. Hazel: I'm wide awake now. Meagan: My family and I are getting ready. We are going on a trip this weekend. Your book is going to be in my hand the entire airplane ride there and back because I just want to soak in every single word that you wrote in this book. I am so excited. I definitely encourage everyone. I haven't even read it yet, but I've skimmed it I should say. I started, but I haven't had time to just sit down and read. It's going to be amazing I can already tell just by browsing through this and listening to you.Oh my gosh. There is something that you say here. It's in the very beginning. This is where I have stopped reading, but it was something that impacts me personally because I feel emotional. It's kind of funny. I felt like this. I felt like a failure and I feel like there are so many times in life when we can– like you said, we beat ourselves up. If it's not about our body, it's about something else, but failure is a word that comes in. I actually have recently, today actually, it's going to be launching. I recently made a reel about failure and how there is no such thing as failure, but this is something if you don't mind, I'm going to quote you reading this book. It's page 10 everybody if you have the book. “In this book, I will talk about planning an elective Cesarean, planning a VBAC, having an elective Cesarean, having a VBAC, or having a repeat emergency Cesarean. There is no failure. You haven't failed if you choose one birth mode but have another. You are amazing and your choices are valid. Be true to you.” That, to me, is so powerful. “Be true to you.” And no, you did not fail no matter what birth mode you chose or what birth mode ended up happening, right? Don't you feel that, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it touches back into the trauma too that maybe you are not aware of that you've experienced and really fear-clearing and taking the time to process your previous birth knowing that whatever the outcome is for your next journey, you're not that failure. You're fine and perfect. You're enough. Hazel: Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm. You are enough. Yes. Hazel: The research, when you read it, is really full of emotive damaging words when it comes to VBAC. Saying that women are a trial of scar or a trial of labor, we are not criminals for wanting to have a vaginal birth and when we use that language in research, then it means OBs and clinicians and nurses and midwives will use that language as well and tell you that you're on trial. What do you imagine when you think of that? You're not thinking about, “Is this uterine scar going to survive?” You get a feeling that you're a criminal and you're not just because you want to have a vaginal birth. I even challenge researchers. Take that language out. You don't need it. It's unnecessary. I've been writing a paper with some OBs over here recently and just saying, “I won't be on it if you use the term ‘trial.' I won't be on it if you use the term ‘failed' or ‘succeeded'. Just take the emotive words out and call it what it is.”We have to show by example as well and not have that language in the papers that are influencing policy, guidelines, and practitioners. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: There is such power in the language and the words that we use. Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Well, Hazel. It has been such an honor to chat with you. Like I said, I feel like we could go on and on and on. Maybe we just need to have you back on. Maybe we need to do something even bigger and do a webinar with you because you have such a wealth of knowledge and we're so grateful for you. Like I said everybody, we will have the link for her book Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth in our show notes. So Hazel, before we go, do you want to share where everyone can find you? I'm going to be sharing you all over our social media as well. We're going to have everything in the show notes, but tell people where we can find you. Hazel: Yeah, sure. I'm on Instagram at @hazelkeedle. I'm on Facebook at VBAC Matters or Hazel Keedle, VBAC Researcher. That's where I share my book information but also future research that I'm doing as well. I'd love to come on and do a webinar with you and talk further about this anytime even at 2:00 in the morning. Meagan: Even at 2:00 in the morning! You are amazing. We are so grateful to you. Seriously, thank you so much, Hazel. Yeah. I can't wait to share this episode with the world. Hazel: Thank you for having me. Sarah: You know, a lot of what we talk about in the episode is so important and so true to how I feel too. I think calling out trauma has been something that's really near and dear to my heart and something that I had to do to prepare for my own VBAC, so I definitely recommend anybody that is going through this journey to make sure that you are taking the time to really heal from that previous birth and taking time to process and doing some fear clearing and even physical healing from the scar and doing scar massage and such like that. Also, I really think it's important to find that support and build that relationship like Hazel was talking about. Make sure you have somebody that you are able to build a relationship with and feel comfortable with because that's going to matter so much when it comes to your birth. And also, finding a doula that you have a good relationship with, not just your provider. I think those are really main things that I really try to instill in anyone that's going for a VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. I 100% agree and Sarah, we are so happy to have you in our VBAC Link doula community. Can you tell everybody where they can find you as well? Sarah: Yeah, sure. I am in Simpsonville, South Carolina. It's in upstate South Carolina. More commonly, I guess you'd be familiar with Greenville, South Carolina. I am in that area. You can find me, mostly I hang out on Instagram, so either @sarah_marie_bilger or Entering Motherhood. You can find me there on Instagram. We're actually planning on starting up local VBAC support groups.Meagan: Oh, amazing. Sarah: So if anybody is around and in the area and interested in doing that, there's going to be me and another doula in the area. We're excited to start that and really provide in-person support for people either that have had Cesareans, may be thinking of a VBAC, or really just any realm of Cesarean/VBAC. If you've already had your VBAC and you want to come share your story of success to motivate and help women that are preparing for it as well, we're going to include story sharing and different topics to cover. Meagan: Absolutely amazing. Awesome, awesome. When all of that information is available if you wouldn't mind shooting that over to us, we will make sure that the world knows that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. It was such an honor to have you. Sarah: Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

What can you do if labor seems to be, well, stuck? Most birthing people I know (including myself) want to move labor along! So how can we help that happen and avoid “stalled” labor?  On today's episode of Yoga| Birth| Babies doula and exercise physiologist Lindsey McCoy, gives us tools and tips to help balance the body, help baby find space, and to help baby move seamlessly through the pelvis so that labor doesn't stall. Lindsey shares things we can do prenatally to prepare our body for birth as well as tools that you can take into your labor. She also talks about common signs parents can see that birth is a little delayed and how we can start to make room for baby and to rebalance the body. This conversation is packed full of information that can give you confidence heading into your birth. When you feel confident, you can more easily roll with your labor and any obstacles that may occur. I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation. Get the most out of each episode by checking out the show notes with links, resources and other related podcasts at: prenatalyogacenter.com Don't forget to grab your FREE guide, 5 Simple Solutions to the Most Common Pregnancy Pains HERE  If you love what you've been listening to, please leave a rating and review! Yoga| Birth|Babies To connect with Deb and the PYC Community:  Instagram & Facebook: @prenatalyogacenter Youtube: Prenatal Yoga Center Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Christian Lawson co-founder of Kindred Birth Collaborative (https://www.kindredbirthingcollaborative.com), Doula for 11 years, and teacher of VBAC courses and childbirth education.    Are you in the Glendora California area? Contact me, Dr. Erica today: (626) 385-8844  erica@villagefpt.com Follow me on Instagram: project_pelvic_health   1.  Free phone consultation with ME - I discuss your issues and answer your questions. Just send me an email & tell me what's going on.  2.  8-week Postpartum Program - work with ME one-on-one to get hands-on help for healing postpartum. email me "Postpartum" to get started! Don't delay because there are only a limited number of spots available!     Resources from Christian:   Childbirth: Ina May's Guide to Childbirth by Ina May Gaskin  The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth by Henci Goer Pushed by Jennifer Block Pregnancy, Childbirth and the Newborn by Penny Simkin  Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry  The Labor Progress Handbook by Penny Simkin The Joy of Natural Childbirth ~ Helen Wessel Born in the USA ~ Marsden Wagner, MD. M.S. Birth as an American Right of passage ~ Robbie Floyd-Davis The Sanctity of Human  Blood ~ Dr. Tim O'Shea  The Microbiome Solution ~ Robynne Chutkan    Postpartum: Golden Month: Caring for the World's Mothers After Childbirth by Jenny Allison Mothering the New Mother by Sally Placksin  Natural Health After Birth by Aviva Jill Brown  Build Your Nest:  A Postpartum Planning Workbook by Kestrel Gates Pregnancy, Childbirth and the Newborn by Penny Simkin Natural Health Afterbirth by Aviva Romm The fourth trimester by Kimberly Ann Johnson Diastasic Recti by Katy Bowman   Breastfeeding: Ina May's Guide to Breastfeeding ~ Ina May Gaskin Latch: A Handbook for Breastfeeding with Confidence at Every Stage by Robin Kaplan Work. Pump. Repeat by Jessica Shortall  The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding by Le Leche League Lactivate: A Users Guide to Breastfeeding by Jill Krause   Documentaries:  The Business of Being Born More Business of Being Born Pregnant in America For the Greater Good Why Not Home Comfort Measures for Childbirth by Penny Simkin CUT: The Film ~ www.cutthefilm.com 

Today we have the honour and pleasure of chatting to Hazel Keedle once again on the podcast. Hazel is a lecturer at Western Sydney University and midwifery researcher who has primarily focused on women's experiences of vaginal birth after caesarean and is now a lead researcher in the Birth Experience Study- the largest study on women's experiences of maternity care in Australia. Since we last spoke Hazel has completed her PhD and is now an author with her newly released book Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. We spoke to Hazel way back in Season 1 and you can find this interview by searching for our 7th episode. In this episode we cover:The inspiration for the book Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth and what readers can expect to gain from reading itInteresting preliminary observations from data collected from The Birth Experience Study Survey which had almost 9000 respondentsFeminism and birth and the impact of social mediaImpact and importance of continuity of midwifery careEncouraging words of advice for midwives and student midwives navigating fragmented care in our Australian maternity system + much moreFollow Hazel at these locations:Instagram: @hazelkeedleFacebook: @VBACmatters https://www.facebook.com/VBACmattersTwitter: @HazelKeedleFor links to papers, events and more:https://linktr.ee/hazelkeedleBuy the book on Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/vbac-bookStay tuned for a GIVEAWAY of Hazel's book Birth After Caesarean for VBAC Birth Stories listeners :) Be sure to be following the pod and Hazel on social media.Instagram: @vbacbirthstoriesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/vbacbirthstoriesAUSupport the podcast on Patreon:~ PATREON ~Please consider joining our Patreon if you are enjoying the podcast and would like to help support us by making a donation:https://www.patreon.com/vbacbirthstories~ AFFILIATES ~Access discounts with our amazing affiliates:Birth Time film:USE DISCOUNT CODE: CICADA20https://www.birthtime.world/a/2147503775/Eb2KfvxtPartum Panties:USE DISCOUNT CODE: Vbacbirthstorieshttps://www.partumpanties.com.auThe Birth Store:USE DISCOUNT CODE: VBAChttps://thebirthstore.com.au**VBAC Birth Stories features women's lived experiences. It is not intended to replace medical advice. Should you have any concerns during your pregnancy please always consult your healthcare provider.Please connect with us on Facebook or Instagram: @vbacbirthstories

Rose Ricketson talks with Hazel Keedle, PhD, Lecturer of Midwifery at Western Sydney University and author of her recently released book Birth after Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. They discuss her research and findings around VBAC in Australia, as well as her work in midwifery. Hazel has more than two decades of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator and researcher. Hazel's research interests are vaginal birth after caesarean, birth trauma and maternity experiences explored primarily using feminist mixed methodologies. Hazel's work is recognised nationally and internationally, with more than50 conference and seminar presentations including 15 as an invited speaker. Hazel has a developing publication track record as an early career researcher, with 15 peer reviewed publications and a best selling book for women based on her PhD findings, Birth after Caesarean, your journey to a better birth.Linktree: https://linktr.ee/hazelkeedle (this has all the links to my papers, events, etc)Instagram: @hazelkeedleFacebook: @VBACmattersTwitter: @HazelKeedleBook on Amazon.com.au: https://tinyurl.com/2jmrfb9p

Are you ready to support your doula clients using the most powerful tool on your belt?In this episode, I am joined by my favorite author, Henci Goer. We are chatting about the impossibility of unbiased maternity care, and what you can do as a doula to help.To put it lightly, mainstream obstetric research can be… dodgy. It rarely takes into account the mother's well-being and is highly motivated by control, economic gains, and legal protection. Putting the research into mom's hands will give her the confidence to make evidence-based decisions during her birth experience, and give her a better chance at the birth outcome she has envisioned.Henci is an acknowledged expert on evidence-based maternity care, an award-winning medical writer and an internationally known speaker. Her most well-known book is “Obstetric Myths Versus Research Realities,” which is used and referenced widely across the childbirth community. If you're tired of hearing doctors push their non-evidence-based opinions, then you'll wanna listen up!Visit Henci Goer's website: http://www.hencigoer.com/ Resources mentioned:>> Obstetric Myths Versus Research Realities by Henci Goer >>The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth by Henci Goer>>Optimal Care in Childbirth: The Case for a Physiologic Approach by Henci Goer >>Childbirth U: https://childbirth-u.com/ Ready to turn your passion for birth into a crazy successful doula career? I've got you. Click here and join me inside Birthworker Academy.Check out this episode's full show notes or read the transcript at www.birthworker.com/8 or follow along over on Instagram @theautonomymommy or @birthworkerpodcastIf this episode lights you up, I'd love it if you'd rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening from. After you review the show - snap a pic and upload it here - and I'll send you a little surprise as a thank you.Your feedback helps this podcast grow and I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you!

Thanks for listening to WIRED. Check back in tomorrow to hear more stories from WIRED.com.

Thanks for listening to WIRED. Check back in tomorrow to hear more stories from WIRED.com.

Today's show features two conversations: Blyss joins in an alliteration of B's, while Stu connects from his RV. Stu also leaves the Beast behind and travels to the village of Shoreham in Kent, UK to meet with the prolific and informed hypnobirthing instructor, Erin Fung of Better Birth UK.In this episode of Birthing Instincts:Questioning the Friedman CurveThe wide variety of viable birth positionsErin's first traumatic birth experience The importance of mothers being fully informed of risks (with or without certain interventions)Envisioning a better future for birthing mothersThis show is supported by:Bamboobies | Go to INSTINCTS to get 25% off your first order!LMNT | Go to drinklmnt.com/birthinginstincts  to get a free sample pack!Connect with Dr. Stu:Instagram: @birthinginstinctsWebsite: birthinginstincts.comConnect with Blyss:Instagram: @birthingblyssWebsite: birthingblyss.comConnect with Erin Fung:Instagram: @betterbirthukLinktree: https://linktr.ee/BetterBirth  This show is produced by Soulfire Productions

In this episode, I am chatting to Louisa, a mum of 3, who recently gave birth in a Midwife Led Unit to a breech baby. Louisa had a C-section with her first baby who was also breech and then went on to have a VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Caesarean) for her 2nd. Her preparation for her 3rd baby was very thorough, in order to achieve a similar experience to her 2nd birth.    After realising at the end of the pregnancy that her baby was breech, and clearly very comfortable in that position, she sought out help and support to achieve a vaginal breech birth.She looked into the opti breech project and talked to others like Kemi @kemibirthjoyjohnson, Laura @laura_lemontreebirth Zara @doulabud and Sheryl @simply_natal_healing_birth. She also listened to Dr Stu @birthinginstincts on the Better Birth podcast and used the skills of her hypnobirthing teacher from @loveyourbirth_training.Find your nearest hospital that supports vaginal breech birth - https://optibreech.ukYou can follow Louisa - @louisa_for_baby_for_meIf you would like to buy a copy of the book that accompanies this podcast - click here:-Labour of Love - The Ultimate Guide to Being a Birth Partner — https://bit.ly/LabourofloveOr purchase a copy via my website - www.birthability.co.ukFollow me on Instagram @theultimatebirthpartner @birthabilityBook a 1-2-1 session with Sallyann  -  https://linktr.ee/SallyannBeresfordPlease remember that the information shared with you in this episode is solely based on my own personal experiences as a doula and the private opinions of my guest, based on her own experiences as a mother.  Any recommendations made may not be suitable for all women so listeners must do their own research before making decisions.  

Dr. Stu loved this podcast so much, he wanted to share it here for all of the Birthing Instincts Podcast listeners! In this episode, Erin and Dr. Stu discuss breech birth, the misconceptions, Dr. Stu's successes in facilitating vaginal breech births at home, and why a C-section doesn't have to be a foregone conclusion!In this episode of the Birthing Instincts Podcast:The dying art of breech birthsHistory of breech births and we labor the way we doDifferences between US and UK birth healthcareThe unspoken side effects of C-sectionsThis show is supported by:Bamboobies | Use code INSTINCTS to get 40% off your first order! Connect with Dr. Stu:Instagram: @birthinginstinctsWebsite: birthinginstincts.comConnect with Blyss:Instagram: @birthingblyssWebsite: birthingblyss.comConnect with Erin and The Better Birth Podcast:Podcast: The Better Birth Podcast Instagram: @BetterBirthUK This show is produced by Soulfire Productions

  Today we talk to Jessica Diggs,  one of the most sought after Doulas and Midwives in the San Francisco area and Education Lead at LOOM, an empowering digital education platform that brings accessible sexual and reproductive health education to all communities, including its debut program centering on pregnancy, birth, and postpartum topics. Jessica's work goes a long way in helping to provide wider access to the sort of inclusive and comprehensive education that is vital for health and safety at any stage of reproduction. We talk about how Jessica's journey to be knowledgeable about sexual and reproductive health for herself and her friends led her into the birth world and becoming a doula and reproductive health educator. We also talk about the inception of LOOM and the value of accessible reproductive education. We discuss the lack of resources for teen parents, and the ways in which teen parents are able to thrive when they have proper support and education.   We discuss, as a doula, supporting a wider variety of pregnancy and birth experiences than what most people consider the "usual" and how every birth is improved when the individual experience of the parents is acknowledged and uplifted, including their gender identity, family structure, supporting partner, and individual values. We also talk about what the curriculum of LOOM covers, starting with the very basics of what many people may not know about their body or their pregnancy and working up.   Finally we talk about the ways that LOOM supports birth partners, regardless of parental status. We talk about giving the partners or chosen family of the birthing person the resources that they need to give the proper support and to be an active part of the experience. We also talk about what it means to normalize the experience of childbirth and how doing so can reduce the amount of fear that people experience going into pregnancy and improve birth outcomes and the overall experience of living in our bodies.   To Learn More Visit:  http://loomhq.com For Any Questions, Email Us at media@birthcircle.com

Michelle is celebrating the 2 year anniversary of the Birth Ease Podcast! With all of the stress the Coronavirus pandemic is bringing, she reairs episode 2 to once again set the foundation of what she means by "noise" in the podcast introduction, as well as exactly what stress is and the impacts it has. Michelle shares how stress can affect our ability to conceive a child, as well as cause pregnancy complications and preterm birth. If a mother is experiencing chronic or intense acute stress, then it will actually interfere with the wiring of the unborn baby's brain. During birth, stress and fear can cause labor to slow or stall. Michelle shares measures to help make the transition from the womb into the world less stressful for the baby. Stressful life events can be a factor in developing postpartum depression, as well.Michelle reassures listeners that women undergoing acute or chronic stress can have healthy pregnancies and give birth to healthy babies, but it is vital to reduce our stress as much as possible and find coping skills and techniques to help. Please check out the next episode. Michelle will replay episode 3, in which she shares  ways to mitigate stress and elicit the relaxation response. It will include a bonus guided relaxation session that is valuable for anyone that has a child or children in their life, no matter the age of the child.  “Stress can impact us, our relationships, and our bodies. There is help in the form of resources, techniques, and coping skills.”  —  Michelle Smith Connect with Michelle Smith:  Classes with Michelle: birtheaseservices.com/birth-ease-childbirth-education, birtheasehypnobirth.com/hypnobirthing-classes-orlando-michelleFacebook:   Birth Ease,   The Birth Ease Podcast,  Birth Ease Baby Loss SupportInstagram:    @birtheasemichellesmith,  @birtheaselossssupportYouTube:    Birth EaseLinkedIn:  Birth Ease Michelle SmithWebsites:  BirthEaseServices.com,  birtheasehypnobirth.com Episode References:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170529090530  University of Zurich. "Too much stress for the mother affects the baby through amniotic fluid."  ScienceDaily, 29 May 2017https://www.marchofdimes.org/pregnancy/stress-and-pregnancy.aspxhttps://www.webmd.com/baby/features/stress-marks#1https://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2010/08/27/cant-get-pregnant-how-stress-may-be-causing-your-infertilityhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6016043/ The relationship between stress and fertilityhttp://www.child-encyclopedia.com/stress-and-pregnancy-prenatal-and-perinatal/according-experts/effects-prenatal-stress-childhttps://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/stress-symptoms-effects_of-stress-on-the-body#2Interview with Thomas Verny,  MD on the 2019 Better Birth 360 Summit hosted by Nicholas OlowNewsweek Special Edition: Your Baby's Brain 2015  "Keep Calm and Carry On"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290058/  “The Effect of Stressful Life Events on Postpartum Depression: Findings from the 2009–2011 Mississippi Pregnancy Risk Assessment Monitoring System”https://www.marchofdimes.org/pregnancy/postpartum-depression.aspxhttps://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/postpartum-depression-facts/index.shtml