After the Orgy

Vers and Lukas  drop by and talk about e-dating, e-girls, e-ating disorders, and secret political Facebook groups. 

Steff and Katherine discuss Lauren Oyler's Fake Accounts and Patricia Lockwood's No One Is Talking About This. Warning, Katherine struggles through a Harper's review. She got a little too big for her britches with the whole "reading quotes out loud" thing.

we met online. is a new show from Katherine Dee and Naama Kates. In this cross-posted episode, Naama and Katherine discuss cam girls: the history, business model, cultural context, and psychology of these digital entertainers. Listen here: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/we-met-onlineRegularly scheduled episodes of The Computer Room will resume next week.

we met online. is a new show from Katherine Dee and Naama Kates. On episode one, Katherine and Naama discuss 2011's seminal documentary, Catfish: the movie that started a show, a phenomenon, and a prolific career for its star, Nev Schulman.Listen here.Follow on Twitter: @wemetonline   

Is Chat-GPT sentient? What does it think about when you log off? Steff and Katherine explore new developments in AI, as only non-technical people can. 

Katherine and Steff are joined by Perry Abbasi, a Chicago-based lawyer whose Twitter presence recently "made headlines" -- in other words, revealed just how reliant on Twitter modern-day journalists are. Katherine has also, once again, fucked with the theme. Someone help her.Pieces cited:Police district candidate's social media full of racist and misogynist postsHow the Online Right gave up on reality

A little stroll through the history of the Internet's favorite gossip sites: Pretty Ugly Little Liars, KiwiFarms, The Dirty, lolcow.farm, Perez Hilton, and Lipstick Alley. And of course...honorable mention, the Encyclopedia Dramatica. This was recorded weeks before Katherine had her moment of enlightenment about random Internet strangers.Theme: Computer Love, covered by Envelope Generator 

Two of two in a series about Adam Lanza's digital footprint. This has some overlap with episode one, and they don't need to be listened to in order. Follow Gio on Twitter here and on YouTube here.Theme: Beehive Days by Locust Toybox

André Brock, professor and author of Distributed Blackness: African American Cybercultures, popped by the show to talk about the origins of Black Twitter, the importance of writing about digital subcultures as they're developing, digital whiteflight, and the first Black social networking site, BlackPlanet.com.Find André's work here and on Twitter here.Articles referenced:How Black people use Twitter, Farhad ManjooYou Can Tweet Like This, Or You Can Tweet Like That, Or You Can Tweet Like Us, Post BourgieWhat Were Black People Talking About on Twitter Last Night?, Choire SichaMicah's “Black people on Twitter” theory, Nick DouglasFrom the Blackhand Side: Twitter as a Cultural Conversation, André Brock…and the research on Black Twitter conducted by Deen Freelon, Meredith Clark, and Charleton McIlwain

Author and prolific #WitchToker Chaweon Koo stopped by the pod to talk about technomancy, eco-philosophy, quantum leaping, the demons of TikTok, and some spicy, now six month old drama.Themes:No Escape from Dreamland by Son of PerditionIt's Out There and It's Gonna Get You by Paper Chase

Overworked, overpaid, and probably undertaxed: today, we dive into the world of /r/overemployed.  

Happy New Year! Steff and Katherine the wonderful world of Internet fad diets: keto, paleo, carnivore, frugivore, Bulletproof Diet, Ana Boot Camp, Ray Peatism, Raw Egg Nationalism, and Whole30.Correction: At some point, Katherine incorrectly states Susun Weed was pro-raw veganism! Susun Weed merely debated raw vegans. Stuff gets fuzzy that far back.Link:Salo Forum ArchiveTheme: Computer Love, covered by Envelope Generator (This is the final, static theme. I promise.)

While Kat is in Colombia having a mental health episode, Steff interviews Alex Perez, "the Iowa Pariah," whose controversial interview with editor and writer Elizabeth Ellen inspired the entire staff of Hobart Magazine to resign. Read the interview here. Outro: "Guantanamera" by The Sandpipers 

Default Friend is joined by a new cohost, Poetry Grifter, to talk about two digitally native pieces of literature, Finally, Some Good News and Bronze Age Mindset. The Rise and Fall of the Alt Right:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n887xDKppmE&ab_channel=BlitheringGenius Finally, Some Good News:https://www.amazon.com/Finally-Some-Good-Delicious-Tacos/dp/1790356229 Bronze Age Mindset:https://www.amazon.com/Bronze-Age-Mindset-Pervert-ebook/dp/B07DJQ89TD 

You'll have to forgive me for being half-asleep on this one. Oliver Bateman of What's Left fame and I discuss sex negativity, dating apps, my dating history (here's where my fatigue becomes obvious), and female muscle morphs. We return to our regularly scheduled programming next week.

In this episode, I talk to the YouTube personality and fellow Fan Studies guy, Peter Coffin about YouTube, politics, and the mob.

This was a wide-ranging conversation.We talked about mIRC WWE roleplays, the impossibility of creating a genealogy of bodybuilding forums, how trolling evolved from Usenet to Twitter, the implicit similarities between Aimee Terese and Zyzz, why the digital invites body modification, male-to-male transsexuals, and the lasting impact of what the New York Times' once dubbed “the male fitness internet.”Read Oliver's EXCELLENT reporting here:The Unheard History of Bodybuilding ForumsSteroid SolidarityMuscle, Smoke, MirrorsThe Life of a Jacked Guy in 2019How Selfies and Social Media Shaped Modern BodybuildingWhat Could Have Triggered Elliot Rodger?Books referenced:Muscle, Smoke, and Mirrors by Randy RoachMuscle: Confessions of an Unlikely Bodybuilder by Sam FussellTheme: I Should Have Walked Away by KAAZE 

One of my favorite TikTokers, Rayne Fisher-Quann, joined me to talk about TikTok, cancel culture, the futility of the culture wars, how people talk about casual sex, and a shared favorite topic, the Internet.You can find Rayne's reading recs, advice column, and internet culture observations here (and you can follow her on TikTok here).Theme: You're Standing On My Neck by Splendora 

In episode one, I speak with the author of the essay, “The Ghost of Adam Lanza,” BlitheringGenius.I'd also like to add a content warning. We don't discuss the tragedy at Sandy Hook, but the nature of our discussion may upset some listeners.Theme: Beehive Days by Locust Toybox

Meta-Nomad, the host of another one of my favorite podcasts, Hermitix, and I talk about cyclical backlashes, the frontiersmen of the Metaverse, walking the walk, and the importance of starting a garden.  I cut this one a little short because towards the end, it got a little inside baseball and we went on a long tangent about a specific book. Initially, I was planning on this being released in written format, but was pleasantly surprised that the audio quality wasn't too too bad. Theme: Telekon by Gary NumanListen to Hermitix here.

Years ago I was an angry young man And I'd pretend That I was a billboard Standing tall By the side of the roadI fell in love With a beautiful highway This used to be real estate Now it's only fields and trees— [Nothing But] Flowers, The Talking HeadsPlease excuse the static!This is an interview with the anarcho-primitivist John Zerzan.What to say about John. He's a really nice guy. He's anti-civilization, but not an accelerationist (as far as I know). He's an icon. There's also a chance you don't know who he is.John Zerzan was one of the first philosophers I ever read. I've been a fan of his work since I was very young. I remember a long, long time ago, it must have been the mid-2000s, anarcho-primitivism was having a real moment online. I was old enough to grok it, young enough to still be enchanted by it. As I've grown older, there's lots about his work that I can't totally get behind or relate to (for example, one thing I'm learning about my politics, whatever they are, is that I don't believe you can eliminate hierarchy), but I still think it's well worth checking out. His commentary on symbolic thought, time, and computers are both especially interesting and prescient.You can read more of his work here. I also highly, highly recommend his two appearances on one of my favorite podcasts, Hermitix, The Death of Civilization, and Time and Primitivism. 

On this episode, I talk to the hostesses my favorite podcast, Nymphet Alumni. We talk about the lolcowification of TikTok, Marshall McLuhan, what would happen if Tavi Gevinson met Curtis Yarvin, incel ascension, digital game, and a hell of a lot more.  One of my favorite episodes yet. Also, I quote a hypothetical Russian person at some point. I'm not Russian. The person I made up for my example is!Listen to Nymphet Alumni here. Other relevant links:https://sherbert.biz/selected-workhttps://www.reddit.com/r/aliceandfernsnark/https://defaultfriend.substack.com/p/incels-incel-ascension-incel-chasers?s=whttps://defaultfriend.substack.com/p/the-inverse-of-the-fuck-boy/comments?s=wTheme: Lolita Ya-Ya by Nelson Riddle

I have a backlog of episodes! This is a conversation I did with Atoosa Rubenstein, former Editor-in-Chief of Seventeen and founder of Cosmogirl, in January (

I spoke with the writer and technological theorist L.M. Sacasas about his work, grounding your perception of digital technology in philosophy, and moving towards a more coherent understanding of what the Internet is. Subscribe to his Substack here.Theme: Computer Love by Kraftwerk

Today, Emmet Penney, host of ex.haust, and I discussed PKD's sprawling 1972 speech from the Vancouver Science Fiction Convention, "The Android and the Human."I encourage everyone read the whole piece here, but it's perhaps best summed up by the following quote:Our environment — and I mean our man-made world of machines, artificial constructs, computers, electronic systems, interlinking homeostatic components — all of this is in fact beginning more and more to possess what the earnest psychologists fear the primitive sees in his environment: animation. In a very real sense our environment is becoming alive, or at least quasi-alive, and in ways specifically and fundamentally analogous to ourselves...Rather than learning about ourselves by studying our constructs, perhaps we should make the attempt to comprehend what our constructs are up to by looking into what we ourselves are up to.Read it here.  

From the “glow up” to main character syndrome, the internet loves a hero (or an anti-hero, as it were). I sat down with my dear friend Meme Analysis to talk about what this has to do with the persistent popularity of MGMT's “Little Dark Age” on TikTok.Theme: Little Dark Age by MGMT

Paul Town makes a return to my Substack for a conversation about writing books, moving to Southeast Asia, and killing time.Produced by: Will Kraus

Joshua Citarella is an artist and researcher whose work focuses on the fringe political groups developing in cyberspace. I love his work, partially because it's a reminder to me that there's more to Internet politics than the Dissident Right. In fact, talking to Joshua was good reminder in general of the vastness of cyberspace. For me, I always think of it through the lenses of Twitter, Tumblr, and TikTok. Certain podcasts. Journalists.But there's a whole other ecosystem on YouTube, Twitch, and Instagram.It got me thinking about two things: Fans don't always mean influence, and influence doesn't always mean fans. Influence and fans don't always mean you'll be familiar with either group.We talked about a lot, more than just the terrain of online life. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much I did.Theme: The Robots by KraftworkProduced by Will Kraus

Here's a theory I've been kicking around with today's guest: Tumblr was an extension of MK Ultra. I've never been more serious.Subscribe to Limpida's Substack here.Theme: Autobahn by Kraftwerk Produced by: Will Kraus

Jack makes a return and we discuss Tumblr fake stories, from Oppa Homeless Style to my personal favorite, Aceggots. What's the difference between a fake story and just lying online? Is there a meaningful difference? Is there a taxonomy of fake posts? Beyond that, are there discrete genres?Theme: Are You Satisfied? by Marina Produced by: Will Kraus

In this special crossover episode, Emmet returns to discuss Carmen Hermosillo's/humdog's iconic essay about self-commodification on the WELL (Whole Earth 'Letronic Link), "pandora's vox."  Read it here:https://gist.github.com/kolber/2131643 

Jack Crum of 404Tales joins me for a conversation about internet ethnographies, the history of Tumblr, and what nobody had the balls to say about #GamerGate.Theme: The Great Fairy Fountain Etude

Promoting this episode of ex.haust on The Computer Room's feed. Emmet Penney and I talk about one of my favorite pieces of tech writing of all time, Julian Dibbell's essay, "A Rape in Cyberspace." (As an aside, where has all the tech writing like this gone?) Read "A Rape in Cyberspace" here.Listen to ex.haust here.

WARNING: This episode's audio quality is exceptionally, exceptionally bad. Special thanks to Will Kraus for cleaning it up. In future episodes, I'll be using a better mic.Is a journalist who reports on virtual events that happen in a virtual world still a journalist? If you choose to present yourself as a rabbit online, does that say anything meaningful about who you really are? I spoke with Peter Ludlow, founder of The Alphaville Herald about living your life—fully online.Referenced articles:Raking muck in "The Sims Online" by Farhad Manjoo (Salon, 2003)Evangeline: Interview with a Child cyber-Prostitute in TSO by Peter Ludlow (2003)A Real-Life Debate On Free Expression In a Cyberspace City by Amy Harmon (2004)

Somehow, we never posted this excellent episode. I think this might be the last episode that we recorded together before the hiatus. -- Default FriendThe birds are chirping, the Gchats are pinging, and Default Friend and the Personality Girl interview the inimitable Tao Lin. TPG and Tao talk glyphosate; DF mixes up Terence McKenna and Timothy Leary; the three reverse engineer themselves into accepting Traditionalism wholeheartedly.

While ATO is on hiatus, from DF's The Computer Room:I talked about Usenet (and, incredibly, mispronounced it), elitism, and the lost civilizations of the Internet with the most famous blogger in the world.I'm not one of his readers, but I feel like I understand him a lot better after hearing him talk about the Internet. After this conversation, I'm left wondering… do we need to govern the Internet, as though it were a physical place?(I also wish I asked him about his galaxy of other projects.)Theme: Computer Love by KraftwerkAudio edited by: Will Kraus

In an episode that may or may not be part of After the Orgy, Default Friend and friend of the pod and artist Gio Pennacchietti discuss internet-based creoles, the Internet's obsession with the body, the trad thots of yore, 'found footage' e-girls and self-posters, Girl Bosses as a sexual orientation, and why Default Friend wasn't bat mitzvahed.Theme: Sara perché ti amo by Ricche e Poveri Find Gio around the web: https://twitter.com/giantgiohttps://gioscontentcorner.wordpress.com/author/giopennacchietti/Get your Default Friend fix:defaultfriend.substack.com As for TPG, she has requested for me to amend to "you know where to find her." 

On a very special episode of After the Orgy, Default Friend and The Personality Girl talk to the one and only Marc Andreessen about the pilot of HBO's Silicon Valley. Default Friend may or may not be painfully starstruck this episode.Theme: Stretch Your Face by Tobacco

Fresh off going viral with their own respective Twitter mishaps, DF and TPG discuss Alice Munro's  "An Ounce of Cure," a short story about a teenage girl who accidentally humiliates herself during a drunken, angst-ridden babysitting gig.   Theme: Friday I'm In Love by The Cure

Default Friend and the Personality Girl discuss the 2013 Elizabeth Wurtzel essay "Elizabeth Wurtzel Confronts Her One Night Stand of a Life" and Dan Sallitt's 2019 film Fourteen.  What does it mean for a woman not to grow up? What does it mean for anyone to accept responsibility for their lives, as an adult? Theme: Good Advice by The Growlers 

In a rare completely unedited episode, DF and TPG discuss Smooth Talk (1985), The Follower (2019), and the story that inspired both, "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" by Joyce Carol Oates (1966).

Home from waiting five hours for a negative corona test, TPG uploads the latest gab fest with Default, where Default made the mistake of checking her Twitter DMs and then drinking a beer. They talk about the ongoing lockdown crisis. (Default  apologizes for the reactive nature of her statements.) Theme: "Somebody's Watching Me" by Rockwell 

In their first in-person episode, Default and TPG talk about Larry Clark's 2004 casting-couch film "Impaled," porn, casual sex, and when anal becomes sacred. Theme: More, More, More by Andrea True Connection

We welcome our first cancelled man, writer and filmmaker Stephen Elliott, known for founding the Rumpus, writing The Adderall Diaries and Happy Baby, directing About Cherry (starring James Franco) and suing Moira Donegan, creator of the Shitty Media Men list.Recommended reading: "The Score" by Stephen ElliottTheme: "Beat My Guest" by Adam Ant

In 2012, Tao Lin's literature website, Muumuu House published a short story called “Adrien Brody.” Written by the pseudonymous Marie Calloway, it recounted a tryst between a 21-year-old woman and a much older writer (with a girlfriend) in the Brooklyn leftist/literary scene. As people began to speculate about the real identity behind the titular character, a fiery debate started: Was this art, or was this an over-glorified Tumblr entry? Even critics who sided with Calloway, who enjoyed her writing, didn't evaluate the story for what it was: a piece of short fiction.If you Google “Marie Calloway + Adrien Brody,” it's easier to find critiques of the piece than the story itself. To this day, it seems as though Marie's writing is fated to be overshadowed by the conversation around it.On today's episode we finally give “Adrien Brody” the credit it's long deserved. Not as a political statement, not as a feminist act, not as an attempt at micro-fame, but as a work of confessional art that poignantly captured what it meant to sexually awaken in the early 2010s.(We love you, Marie.)Stories and articles referenced:Adrien Brody by Marie Calloway The New Bad Kids of Fiction by Stephen MarcheMicrofamed by Hamilton Nolan The Oversharers Win by Hamilton NolanThe Personal-Essay Boom is Over by Jia TolentinoInefficient Intimacy by Rob HorningMarie Calloway on Her New Novel and Being Called Jailbait by Lisa CarverTheme: Precocious Young Miss Calloway by Momus

You follow him on Twitter. You've read his books. You've subscribed to his Substack. And now, you've seen him in the Thursday Styles section of The New York Times. Default Friend and the Personality Girl are stoked to welcome the inimitable Paul Skallas, aka the LindyMan, to After the Orgy, where they have a wide-ranging conversation about the Marvel Cinematic Universe, tech, strivers, Adderall, young adult literature, parenting, and everyone's favorite topic: women under 25.Theme: Lindy by  Kenny Chesney

Default Friend and the Personality Girl are joined by infamous playwright, director, screenwriter, and BYU alum Neil LaBute. Together they unpack the question, "What should you do if your boyfriend doesn't think you're a 10?" Theme: Jim Jim Falls by Morrissey

Theme: Heart of Glass by Blondie

Theme: Carry That Weight by The Beatles

Theme: Johnny Angel by Shelley FabaresStories and films discussed: The Feels of Lovehttps://www.guernicamag.com/the-feels-of-love/It Felt Like Lovehttps://www.imdb.com/title/tt2328922/Forever's Gonna Start Tonight https://vimeo.com/115435198

Theme: He Hit Me and It Felt Like a Kiss by The Crystals