Podcasts about lds family services

Myndee shares her story of the decades-long trauma she suffered after giving up her baby for adoption through LDS Family Services. Her story includes themes of abuse, religious trauma, adoption trauma, and deception. Join us for an in-depth discussion into Myndee's healing journey.  A wife and mother of three daughters, Myndee also enjoys raising Rottweilers.    

In this episode we talk about four different resources one can go to in their battle with addiction!Resource 1:LDS Family Services 12 Step Addiction Recover Program:https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng&showMap=true&meetingTypes=null&genders=menAndWomen,menOnly,womenOnly,ysaMenAndWomen,ysaMenOnly,ysaWomenOnly,couples,wives&groupTypes=all&page=1&clientTimezone=America/DenverResource 2:Fight the New Drughttps://fightthenewdrug.org/Resource 3:Sex Addicts Anonymous (Non-denominational 12 step program adapted for sexual addiction)https://saa-recovery.org/Resource 4:Life Changing Serviceshttps://www.lifechangingservices.org/If this helps you in any way please SHARE, SUBSCRIBE, and LIKE!! :)We love suggestions, please email us at intothelight5024@gmail.com with anything you feel would help!WE LOVE YOU ALL!!

"The Battle Is The Lord's." Come Follow Up host Ben Lomu meets with Old Testament scholar James Goldberg as well as special guests Kim Clark, BYU NAC Professor of Business Management, and Dr. Ben Erwin, LDS Family Services counseling program manager, to discuss a part of 1 Samuel in the Old Testament. Also discussed are lessons from the rise and fall of Saul and how the Lord looketh on the heart. These discussions correlate with the weekly Come, Follow Me resource from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. With participation from the live studio audience and engagement via social media for viewers at home, Come Follow Up complements your personal and family scripture study.

Bishop Jensen & Elder Jaxxxon are joined by Brother Jacob - a former LDS Family Services psychologist.

Bishop Jensen & Elder Jaxxxon are joined by Brother Jacob - a former LDS Family Services psychologist.

Mormon Stories listeners are in for a treat today as we're joined by Mark Phillips and his daughter Zelle as they share their family's fascinating Mormon journey. Mark is a clinical and counseling psychologist by profession who has spent part of his career working in LDS Family Services and was first inspired on his mission as a trainer to become a psychologist when working with difficult companions. Zelle discusses with us what it was like as a missionary during Covid, coming home early, coming out to her family, and coming into her own authentic self. A few of the themes we cover in this episode are around how growing up in the US Midwest and South shapes Mormon experiences, focusing on what's inside instead of outside appearances, and coming to terms with Mormon truth claims as a family. We know you'll love this amazing father-daughter duo and enjoy listening to Carah as host and Gerardo as co-host on this episode! ————— We are 100% donor funded! Please click HERE to donate and keep this content coming! Click here to donate monthly: $10 $25 $50 —————

Steve Sunday has worked in the field of adoption for more than four decades as a caseworker, supervisor, and administrator. Currently, he is the Founder and President/CEO of Forever Bound Adoption, as well as an advisor to the adoption advocacy support organization, United for Adoption.Since graduating with his MSW in 1981 from Arizona State University, he has worked professionally in Arizona, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma and Utah. He has taught students at the collegiate level in three states. He has also spent hundreds of hours coaching and mentoring young people, largely on a volunteer basis.Steve was the project lead on the award winning “Adoption, It's About Love” television and radio commercials in partnership with Bonneville Communications. He spent approximately 30 years of his career with LDS Family Services. In 2009, he was appointed to the board of directors for the National Council for Adoption. Steve also served on the board of directors for the Foster Care Foundation of the State of Utah for six years. He was named the adoption “Professional of the Year” in 2013 by the Utah Adoption Council.More recently, Steve was selected to represent adoption experts and professionals as part of the April 2020 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services panel on private infant adoption policy in Washington D.C. He is a passionate advocate for the needs of children not only in the United States, but worldwide.Reflecting on his life's work, Steve commented that it has been one of the choicest blessings in his life to be associated with the great work of caring for children and building families. Family is central to Steve's personal life, as well as to his professional life. Steve and his sweetheart, Karen, have been married for over 40 years and have seven children and twenty five grandchildren.Connect with Steve at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-a-sunday-77934a26/Here's a link to episode about infertility I mention https://thriving-adoptees.simplecast.com/episodes/the-impact-of-infertility-with-erika-schmitt-director-of-adoption-and-permanency-servicesFOREVER BOUND ADOPTION'S MISSION IS TO BENEFIT CHILDREN BY PROVIDING EDUCATION, GUIDANCE AND LIFELONG SUPPORT TO CREATE, SUSTAIN AND PRESERVE NURTURING FAMILIES.Founded in 2012, Forever Bound Adoption is a licensed 501(c)3 adoption agency. They are passionately committed to the belief that every child deserves a nurturing, permanent family. They serve children, birth parents and adoptive families.More at:https://www.foreverboundadoption.org/https://www.instagram.com/foreverboundadoption_/https://www.facebook.com/foreverboundadoption/

In this episode, Riley and Maxwell interview Kevin Theriot, the previous Program Manager of LDS Family Services. Together they discuss (1) how to know if you should be working with a professional in the repentance process, (2) how you should go about deciding who to work with, and (3) how to ensure that you are really getting the most out of your treatment.

Steven Shields, ACMHC CET1, is a therapist who acts as a guide to help others heal from trauma and addiction. As founder of Unashamed Unafraid, a non-profit organization, he hosts the podcast that shares hope for sexual addiction recovery. Unashamed funds scholarships for people to go to retreats and receive therapy. Steve works in his private practice in Salt Lake City, at OnSite in Nashville Tennessee, and at the Oaks in San Diego California doing trauma intensives and workshops. His favorite event to speak at is the WarriorHeart Bootcamp every year. Steve is unofficially the biggest Leading Saints and "KF" fan! This is part 2 of a 2-part podcast discussion. Listen to Part 1 here. Highlights 0:30 How do I interview someone every week who is in therapy and dealing with addiction? Check in to see if the therapy is working or not. 4:50 How bishops can communicate with therapists. Bishops should get a consent form to be able to get information from the therapist about how the therapy is going. 15:30 How do bishops find a good therapist? Steve describes the different types of therapists and specialities. 26:18 Don't refer a person to an agency. Refer them to a specific person. LDS Family Services is a great resource but it's an agency. 30:00 It can be difficult to find a good therapist. However, therapists like to work with people that like to do the work. Reach out to the therapist you want to go to and show them that you are willing and ready to do the work. It might be worth it to get on a waiting list for a really good therapist. 34:40 What do you do with people that don't want to do the work? The only thing you can do is invite. 36:55 Steve's recommendation to all bishops is to have the person pay for at least part of the sessions, even if it's only five dollars. 40:20 Two questions to ask your therapist. Make sure they are doing the work too and putting what they teach into practice. Do you currently go to therapy or have you been to therapy? What are you currently getting trained in? 41:30 Leaders are carrying the burdens and the huge weight of the ward. Bishops and other leaders should also be getting therapy. Steve challenges all bishops to find a good therapist and do at least three sessions. 43:20 How can a leader begin to understand the resources for intensive therapy? It can be very expensive but much more effective in some situations. 52:00 Steve explains value systems. A therapist should not try to change your value system and if they do you should pick a new one. Links Part 1 of this podcast UnashamedUnafraid.com WarriorHeart Bootcamp It's Not Your Job to Fix Pornography Addiction | An Interview with Todd Olson and Steve Shields 6 Things I Wish Bishops Knew About Addiction | Guest Post by Steven Shields (Recovering Addict) “The Atonement Works for Me”: One Couple's Recovery from Sexual Addiction Read the TRANSCRIPT of this podcast.

Steven Shields, ACMHC CET1, is a therapist who acts as a guide to help others heal from trauma and addiction. As founder of Unashamed Unafraid, a non-profit organization, he hosts the podcast that shares hope for sexual addiction recovery. Unashamed funds scholarships for people to go to retreats and receive therapy. Steve works in his private practice in Salt Lake City, at OnSite in Nashville Tennessee, and at the Oaks in San Diego California doing trauma intensives and workshops. His favorite event to speak at is the WarriorHeart Bootcamp every year. Steve is unofficially the biggest Leading Saints and "KF" fan! This is part 2 of a 2-part podcast discussion. Highlights 0:30 How do I interview someone every week who is in therapy and dealing with addiction? Check in to see if the therapy is working or not. 4:50 How bishops can communicate with therapists. Bishops should get a consent form to be able to get information from the therapist about how the therapy is going. 15:30 How do bishops find a good therapist? Steve describes the different types of therapists and specialities. 26:18 Don't refer a person to an agency. Refer them to a specific person. LDS Family Services is a great resource but it's an agency. 30:00 It can be difficult to find a good therapist. However, therapists like to work with people that like to do the work. Reach out to the therapist you want to go to and show them that you are willing and ready to do the work. It might be worth it to get on a waiting list for a really good therapist. 34:40 What do you do with people that don't want to do the work? The only thing you can do is invite. 36:55 Steve's recommendation to all bishops is to have the person pay for at least part of the sessions, even if it's only five dollars. 40:20 Two questions to ask your therapist. Make sure they are doing the work too and putting what they teach into practice. Do you currently go to therapy or have you been to therapy? What are you currently getting trained in? 41:30 Leaders are carrying the burdens and the huge weight of the ward. Bishops and other leaders should also be getting therapy. Steve challenges all bishops to find a good therapist and do at least three sessions. 43:20 How can a leader begin to understand the resources for intensive therapy? It can be very expensive but much more effective in some situations. 52:00 Steve explains value systems. A therapist should not try to change your value system and if they do you should pick a new one. Links UnashamedUnafraid.com WarriorHeart Bootcamp It's Not Your Job to Fix Pornography Addiction | An Interview with Todd Olson and Steve Shields 6 Things I Wish Bishops Knew About Addiction | Guest Post by Steven Shields (Recovering Addict) “The Atonement Works for Me”: One Couple's Recovery from Sexual Addiction

I interview Rick Thompson, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, on how to help full-time missionaries for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who struggle with pornography issues. These missionaries aren't immune to the temptations and struggles of pornography, yet, they often suffer in shame and silence because of their calling as representatives of Jesus Christ to preach His gospel. In this podcast, Rick talks about ways to support missionaries who are preparing to serve, those serving, and those who come home with struggles. Resources: 1. Addressing Pornography: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/addressing-pornography?lang=eng 2. Book about emotionally preparing for a mission: “Serve Strong but Stay Sane Book” by Gary Taylor, Ph.D: http://www.servestrongbutstaysane.com/ 3. Book about healthy sexuality: “A Better Way to Teach Kids about Sex”: https://deseretbook.com/p/a-better-way-to-teach-kids-about-sex?variant_id=151579-paperback 4. Adjusting to Missionary Life: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/languages/AdjustingMissLife_Booklet_6-7-13.pdf 5. “Preparing Emotionally for Missionary Service,” Elder Robert K. Wagstaff https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/03/preparing-emotionally-for-missionaryservice?lang=eng 6. Resilience SPIRITUAL ARMOR FOR TODAY’S YOUTH: https://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-september-2019/18209-09-020-resilience-spiritual-armor-for-todays-youth-eng.pdf?lang=eng 7. “This work is rigorous. It demands strength and vitality. It demands mental sharpness and capacity. … Missionary work is not a rite of passage in the Church. It is a call extended by the President of the Church to those who are worthy and able to accomplish it. …Good physical and mental health is vital. …There are parents who say, ‘If only we can get Johnny on a mission, then the Lord will bless him with health.’ It seems not to work out that way. Rather, whatever ailment or physical or mental shortcoming a missionary has when he comes into the field only becomes aggravated under the stress of the work.We simply must face up to the facts. President Gordon B. Hinckley speaks about physical and emotional challenges missionaries may have before serving missions. First Worldwide Leadership Training Meeting, January 11, 2003 Segment 1 (1:05) About Rick Rick Thompson is Utah Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been working in the mental health field since 1997. After graduating from Ricks College in 1998, he received his Bachelors of Social Work degree from Brigham Young University-Hawaii in 2001, and received his Masters degree in Social Work from Boise State University in 2003. Rick did his training at LDS Family Services in Boise, Idaho while going through graduate school. Rick has been doing individual, marriage, group, and family counseling since 2003 with children, teens, and adults. He has worked with youth in group homes, detention centers, drug and alcohol rehabilitation centers, and residential programs. Rick has treated individuals with emotional and behavioral issues including depression, anxiety, anger, PTSD, self-mutilation, sexual abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, sexual addictions, and family problems. Rick and his family moved to St. George from Boise, Idaho in 2016 so Rick could work for LDS Family Services. Rick has been serving as Bishop in his ward since 2018 and enjoys seeing people make changes spiritually as well as personally. He married his best friend and beautiful wife Michelle in 2000 and they have three amazing children together. **Geoff Steurer has also created audio and video courses to help support individuals and couples in marriage, addiction, and betrayal trauma recovery at www.geoffsteurer.com/store

0:00:05 Daniel: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess, is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have on the line, Anarie. And she will be sharing with us, her personal experiences around porn addiction in her relationship, and her experiences with addiction recovery treatment. Welcome to the show, Anarie.0:00:49 Anarie: Thanks Daniel.0:00:51 Daniel: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us some details, who are you, and tell us a little bit about your experience?0:01:00 Anarie: Hey. I am in my early 30s. I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have two kids, ages eight and five. I was married for 11 years. We were married in a temple. And we had our divorce finalized about four months ago, and separated about a year ago. So, that's kinda where I'm at.0:01:24 Daniel: This is pretty recent and fresh. And I appreciate you, even with that, coming on and sharing your experiences here. Give us a little background on the... You shared with me that, was it your husband or you, who is experiencing the issues around pornography? Let's start there.0:01:47 Anarie: It was my husband.0:01:48 Daniel: Your husband. And how long into the marriage or before the marriage did you know that there was a problem?0:01:55 Anarie: So, we dated for about nine months before we got married. A pretty short time. Looking back at the time, it seemed like a long time. But about two months into our dating, kind of the time when we went fairly exclusive, he told me that he had had struggles with pornography before his mission. He was a return missionary at the time we were dating. He told me he'd had some trouble with it before his mission, that he'd resolved it with his Bishop, at that time.0:02:25 Anarie: And that since then, that it had been no issue at all, that he had no struggle with it during his mission. And but since meeting me, felt extra strong and resisting but he wanted me to know that that had been a part of his past. So I took his word for it, that it was in the past and that it was several years since he'd had a struggle with it. At that time, we didn't really talk about it very much other than I basically said, "Hey I don't expect you to be perfect, I'm proud of you for resolving it." And it sort of went to rest at that time.0:03:11 Anarie: Then about nine months after we were married, is when I found out that he was still actively using pornography and masturbating without my knowledge. And I found that out, there were some things off in our marriage, in our sexual relationship right from the beginning. And sort of when I was pressing into some of that, that he admitted that he had viewed some. At that time he told me it was just recent and that he'd never do it again. He felt it wasn't something that he needed to talk to the Bishop about, and I was okay with that. I do feel like I had a trauma response, and I was very anxious to believe that it really was just once or twice and kinda put it away at that time.0:04:11 Daniel: What happened before? So you were at about two months into the relationship, you guys became serious. And from what I'm hearing, it's impressive. Some individuals don't even, if they feel like their porn use or whatever sin it may be, is in the past, sometimes they don't even mention it. But he was mentioning it to you at about two months in. To, I don't know, clear the air, or just keep you informed. Which seemed like a good thing. What was your experience at the time?0:04:45 Daniel: I really value what you said, you said, "You know it's in the past." But emotionally, what were you experiencing? Were you thinking, "Oh boy, this is gonna be a potential issue in the future."? Or did you feel like, "Oh, it's taken care of, this shouldn't be a problem, going forward."? What were you experiencing?0:05:03 Anarie: That's a great question. I was nervous about it. It was a little bit of a concern. And actually, about a month before we got married, my older sister said to me, "Make sure you've talked to him about pornography. Make sure you've asked him about pornography use." And I said. "Oh... "0:05:22 Daniel: She did that just randomly, or did she already know?0:05:25 Anarie: Yes.0:05:25 Daniel: Okay.0:05:26 Anarie: No, she didn't know. And I didn't tell her. I told her, "Yes, we've had the conversation." And she seemed to imply that if there was pornography use that I shouldn't be marrying him. I very much wanted to marry him, so I chose not to tell her that that was something that had been a problem in the past. So I was a little bit nervous about it.0:05:49 Daniel: Did that scare you?0:05:50 Anarie: I knew it could potentially be a problem in the future. Yeah.0:05:53 Daniel: When she said, "If there's any pornography, don't pursue the marriage." I think it sounds pretty clear why you didn't share more, is because he had issues...0:06:05 Anarie: And I think rather than not pursuing the marriage, he was encouraging to take it seriously.0:06:10 Daniel: Oh absolutely, right.0:06:12 Anarie: And to not just dismiss it. Which I probably dismissed it more than I should have.0:06:21 Daniel: You said, before we went back to the dating phase, you were starting to talk about how you're seeing some signs after he'd mentioned he had ongoing issues. Did I hear you correctly?0:06:33 Anarie: Yes, yeah.0:06:34 Daniel: What were those indicators, those red flags, so to speak?0:06:38 Anarie: We did not have a good sexual relationship right from the beginning of our marriage. We didn't have sex very often. There were just a lot of things that were really weird, that seemed like they weren't typical at all for what I'd heard initial marriage was supposed to be like. And...0:07:04 Daniel: For the sake of the listeners and their, for a variety of experiences, are you comfortable with maybe giving some of those specifics? What did you see as...0:07:14 Anarie: Oh, what I was expecting?0:07:15 Daniel: Yeah. What you were expecting, or what seemed off?0:07:18 Anarie: I think I was expecting honeymoon phase, where we have sex multiple times a week, multiple times a day. I felt, before we were married, there was lots of sexual tension and lots of sexual interest, and so in my mind, I thought that once we got married, we were gonna have sex a whole bunch, and it was gonna be really fantastic, and we were gonna want each other whole bunch. And that's not what happened, when we got married there actually was a significant decrease in any sort of sexual tension or sexual interest.0:07:56 Daniel: Even though it sounds like you were wanting more frequent sex at that time, and were you communicating that, or did it just dry up real quick?0:08:08 Anarie: Yes, I was communicating it. Through our whole marriage, we had what would be termed as a sexless marriage, sex fewer than 12 times a year. And I was the one who consistently was saying, "Hey, I want more. This isn't right. What's wrong?" Reading lots of books. I took on a lot of the blame for that, and I think because by taking on the blame myself, it was something that I could fix.0:08:42 Anarie: So I read lots of things about Good Girl Syndrome, about maybe why... 'Cause he would sort of say that I wasn't responding the way that I should, and so he didn't want to, or usually when I tried to talk to him about it, it just sort of... It was almost like we couldn't talk about it, it never went much of anywhere. I expressed a lot of like my things, but then there was never much response from him.0:09:11 Daniel: Traditionally, we think of the husband as the higher sex desire partner. Was that confusing to you to see he had a lower desire than you, and that the sex was infrequent? Was that part of the reason why you're taking on the blame?0:09:27 Anarie: It was very confusing to me, especially because prior to our marriage, I was the boundary keeper, he was always pushing the boundaries sexually, and I was the boundary keeper. So then it was really confusing when we got married, and suddenly it was different. I wasn't feeling that desire from him any more.0:09:51 Daniel: And what was he saying, what was the feedback? And I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, and the listeners are taking this at the value... From your perspective. With that being said, what information was he giving to you? Was he saying that he wasn't attracted to you, or what was the reasoning he was giving?0:10:15 Anarie: Not really any reason at all. After a while, as I read more books and stuff, we did have the high desire-low desire. And so he would say, "I guess I'm just a lower-desire person," or... But no, there was never much explanation. I would say things like, I did believe that he wanted me before marriage and after marriage, he didn't, so that must mean that I was a disappointment, so I was the problem, I think that was part of it too. And so a lot of that, I was the one saying, and he didn't really counter it. I mean, he would say, "No, that's not the case," but then he'd never tell me why or do anything to make me believe anything different, in terms of attractiveness and interest, if that makes sense?0:11:11 Daniel: So the absence of information left you with very little to go off of, and it was like you didn't feel that attraction towards you, and he wasn't refuting it, so what else were you left to believe? Interesting.0:11:24 Anarie: Yeah. And so I filled a lot of that void with my own ideas and my own beliefs, and read books to try to figure it out.0:11:34 Daniel: So from there, that was about, you said, nine months into the marriage. Then when did... You're doing all this research, when did it finally become clear that this was actually being as a result of his porn use or masturbation? How far into that discovery was it?0:11:54 Anarie: Okay, so I'm actually kind of embarrassed that it was so long, but it was years before I really got clear that it was pornography, that it was still an active issue. We went to a couple of therapists, we went to one at LDS Family Services, and this was probably four years into our marriage. And so that was fairly traumatic for me, 'cause it ended up feeling very much like... The therapist that we went to... We only went to one session, so... And it was my first therapy experience, but I felt very much like the male therapist and my male husband were looking at me, confirming that I was the problem and waiting for me to get on board or figure something out. I don't remember any discussion of pornography in that session.0:12:57 Daniel: What were they then saying, or what... How do I ask this? You felt it like you were the problem. What were they identifying as the problem, specifically?0:13:11 Anarie: My lack of trust in him. So that actually... And that's something that my husband would say to me a lot. I would ask him about porn, so during this time, I would ask him about it, and he would tell me, "No, I'm not using it. I haven't for years." And he would say, "You need to trust me." So even though he knew that he was not trustworthy, but that was what he was using. It's something that needed to be resolved, is I needed to forgive and I needed to move on and I needed to trust.0:13:47 Daniel: It was manipulative. He knew he wasn't being trustworthy, yet asking for your trust.0:13:53 Anarie: Right. Yeah, yeah. And I was overriding a lot of my gut instinct. I can see now, looking back, that I didn't feel safe with him, and I didn't trust him, and I wasn't able to connect with him because he wasn't being truthful and he wasn't being safe. But I was so unwilling at that time to look at that reality, to believe that he could be lying to my face, that I was taking it all on myself and trying to fix it that way.0:14:23 Daniel: Unfortunately. An unfortunate event, not only the betrayal from your husband, but coming across the therapist who, is what we call triangulating, siding essentially with one person in the experience. But it sound like you got rid of that person pretty quickly, you only had one session.0:14:44 Anarie: Part of it was because he was male and I specifically wanted a female therapist. I felt like it would, I would feel safer. So the second therapist we went to was female, and we went to her for several months. And that was interesting. The only conversation about pornography that we had there was, I remember she asked him directly once if he had current use of pornography. He said, "No."0:15:10 Anarie: So then, all of the conversations about how I couldn't get over his past pornography use and how that was interfering and during that time, we were assigned to have sex a certain number of times a week or a month and report back. And when it was an assignment, it happened, so he was willing to engage with me when it was an assignment, when we were reporting back to the therapist. And I think I felt hopeful, so maybe we just needed to get jump started. So that when we were no longer going to that therapist, it again, that essentially disappeared.0:15:48 Daniel: Again, I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, but that sounds a little... For the sake of the listener, he wasn't, am I following you right, he wasn't willing to have more sex with you when you were asking for it but when it was an assignment from the therapist, he would meet that assignment? Is that what you're saying?0:16:07 Anarie: Yes, yes, yeah.0:16:08 Daniel: What do you think was the difference? Do you think he was wanting to meet a commitment with the therapist, or impress the therapist, or why the difference there? Why was he willing to comply as an assignment?0:16:22 Anarie: I think it may have been partly that; I also think there's a rejection factor, that because it was assigned by the therapist, it was clearly mutually greed, that he was on board and I was on board, so there was no risk of him initiating something sexually and having me feel unsafe or not want it, or be hesitant. Does that makes sense?0:16:44 Daniel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it seems to make sense, especially in the context of what we're talking about here. And what about your hurt; what about your trauma in this experience? Was the therapist mindful of your experiences?0:17:00 Anarie: No, I don't think she had much knowledge of betrayal trauma at all and I didn't have much vocabulary for that either. I don't know that I even knew what betrayal trauma was as a category or how it might be impacting me. Once I learned about betrayal trauma, then my response to everything made so much sense, my response over the years.0:17:24 Daniel: And you said how long were you seeing this particular therapist?0:17:29 Anarie: I think it was about four months. And it was right after the birth of... I think it was when my oldest was about a year old, so four years after our marriage, and we had a one-year-old baby at home.0:17:42 Daniel: And this, I think you're saying seemed to provide some sort of hope, because you're having more frequent sex, things seemed to be improving, but emotionally they weren't.0:17:54 Anarie: Yes. And I would often say to my husband; I felt like I was begging, "Please give me another chance. Can we try again? Can we do this more often?" And he would say, "Yes."0:18:07 Daniel: Wait, wait, begging for what? Sex, or just stay married?0:18:10 Anarie: For us to have sex, for us to have sex more often.0:18:13 Daniel: Oh, okay.0:18:15 Anarie: I talked to... One other thing that was going on here is I did talk to my OB-GYN about vaginismus, and got some information about a program for that.0:18:27 Daniel: So you were, you're experiencing painful sex also?0:18:29 Anarie: Yes. And I think largely due to no foreplay and no arousal. So I don't know that... The vaginismus program wasn't super helpful for me, because I think...0:18:47 Daniel: The foreplay was absent.0:18:49 Anarie: Yeah, there was no arousal happening at all, so of course it was painful and not awesome for me.0:18:57 Daniel: But even with the painful sex, you were still craving... Maybe craving isn't the right word, desiring more frequent sex from him.0:19:06 Anarie: Yes. I think a lot because I had been taught to believe that it was my responsibility as a wife to meet my husband's sexual needs and to fulfill my husband sexually. And I had been, I'd heard from parents and from church leaders that men who are happy with their wives don't look at porn. Which is a incredibly harmful message, that I had internalized and was accepting as part of truth. So I think part of it too was I knew that pornography had been an issue for him, and so one of my ways of helping him with that was gonna be to have sex with him, and then it wasn't working.0:19:49 Daniel: That's powerful.0:19:50 Anarie: I don't know if that makes sense, but that's...0:19:52 Daniel: It actually... You read... Yeah, well, I was about to ask that question, about how much of this was a preventative measure? You felt it was your responsibility as the wife in this eternal marriage to protect and provide a source for his outlet, to prevent him from pornography?0:20:12 Anarie: Yes.0:20:13 Daniel: You're desiring more sex, but there was also a strong element there of, "Okay, if I'm desirable enough to him he won't venture into this icky place," right?0:20:24 Anarie: Yeah, I felt like it was part of my responsibility as a good wife to have a good sexual relationship. I also think, my parents had also told me that sex is a beautiful thing. And once you're married, it's a beautiful part of life. So I do feel like I had a lot of positive affirmation for sex as well.0:20:42 Daniel: But you're like, "Where's the beauty?" [chuckle]0:20:45 Anarie: Yes, yeah. But I felt like I wanted that. And I wanted to make it happen, and I wasn't just gonna settle for like, "Oh, I guess sex is stupid and painful, and so good riddance." I wasn't content to just write it off as, "Okay, well, I guess we won't do this."0:21:03 Daniel: There are quite a few spouses out there that are in similar positions as you and, I don't have any statistics at all, but at least with my anecdotal experience and things that I've read, it seems like a lot of wives will go to a place of... They will actually stop having sex. But you were trying to make this beautiful. You were trying to achieve this thing that your parents were saying is good.0:21:34 Anarie: Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And so that was amazing. That's, you weren't giving up on this hope that it could be something wonderful. So when did things, so to speak, hit the fan? When did you... Did he finally come out and say, "You know what, it's not you, it's been the pornography." What happened there, how did that occur?0:21:55 Anarie: Okay, so it was when my... Let's see, my five-year-old was a year old. Yeah, so our second child was a year old, and by that point, I felt like I had read all the books and talked to my doctor. Essentially, I felt like I had done everything to fix myself and to educate myself. I kinda felt like I'd hit a limit on what I could do on my end. And so I...0:22:32 Daniel: This was what, about five, six years in your marriage?0:22:35 Anarie: So this was about four years ago. So yeah, so it's seven years...0:22:40 Daniel: Seven years into the marriage.0:22:41 Anarie: Seven years into our marriage.0:22:42 Daniel: Wow, so this is...0:22:42 Anarie: So, yeah...0:22:43 Daniel: Wow, okay, good.0:22:46 Anarie: So I got to the point where I basically told him, "I am done with our marriage. I'm not willing to live in a marriage like this. It's not okay with me." By then, also, I had seen a lot more, I'd gotten a lot smarter about pornography usage. So I think a lot of my denial, believing that he was not actually engaging, had been broken down, because I actually started believing a lot of the studies, a lot of the information that was saying that pornography is an ongoing problem, that you don't just turn it off, like he was claiming he'd done. So basically I said, "I've done everything I can. Either you start talking and you start doing something, or I'm out of this marriage. I'm done."0:23:42 Anarie: And I really was to the point where I was willing to get divorced over this. That I didn't want to live in a emotionally disconnected sexless marriage. We were great. We've always been great business partners, good at coordinating logistical things. So the other aspects of what I believe should be part of marriage were completely non-existent. So I believe it was at that point when he realized that I was dead serious that... So by continuing to lie and hide his addiction, he was going to lose the marriage that he decided to start disclosing.0:24:18 Daniel: And can I ask you a personal question here? Is...0:24:22 Anarie: Yeah.0:24:23 Daniel: Were you at any time in that seven years trying to find clues, or go through his internet history or browser, and see if... Were you checking it?0:24:37 Anarie: No.0:24:37 Daniel: Wow, I'm impressed.0:24:39 Anarie: No, I didn't, I didn't play detective like that.0:24:42 Daniel: No, and forgive me, I'm not suggesting you should have, or anybody else should have. I'm just curious to what extent you were... You had a gut feeling, things weren't adding up, and you wanted to believe him, but there was something just off and...0:24:58 Anarie: Well, I am sort of amazed that I... Looking back, there was evidence. I did actually see some things that I should have realized were linked to current pornography usage. But I didn't. One other thing here that I wanna mention is that, about when we were going to that female therapist, you know, a few years into our marriage.0:25:21 Daniel: Right.0:25:23 Anarie: One of the things that came up was that he had never gone and talked to the Bishop after that initial disclosure nine months into our marriage. So I expressed that maybe if he went and talked to the Bishop to resolve that old issue with pornography nine months into our marriage, then I would be able to relax about it and trust him. So he went to our Bishop. And, I was not there so I don't know exactly what was said, but basically he disclosed that he'd viewed pornography within the first year of our marriage, and that it had been really devastating to me. So he told the Bishop some story, and about three weeks later, he was called as elders quorum president in our ward. Which I took to be a sign from God that he was clear.0:26:15 Daniel: Oh.0:26:16 Anarie: That the pornography issue was resolved. So I think that that was also part of why I refused to acknowledge that it was still actively happening all the time.0:26:28 Daniel: So you gave him this... Gosh, it almost sounds like an ultimatum. You were saying, "I'm done here. You gotta bring it forward," seven years into the marriage, what was his response?0:26:42 Anarie: He started disclosing some things. It was a staggering disclosure. He started admitting that he had... At first he just said that he had masturbated. So he'd been actively masturbating. And, which was upsetting to me but also relieving, "Oh, so that's where your sexual... You are a sexual person. That's where your sexual energy is going." And he said it at first that it was like old... He was using old mental images from his prior pornography use and stuff. So over the course of two or three weeks, he started disclosing more that, "Okay, there had been pornography use, but not in the last year."0:27:29 Anarie: Now that I know more about addiction or sexual addiction and how these disclosures generally happen, it really did fit the framework a lot, that he would disclose a little bit and see how I reacted, and then disclose a little bit more, or based on how I responded or what his shame was. And it was about three weeks after he initially started disclosing that he went to our current bishop. It was his initiation. He went to our current bishop and talked to his parents. And then, I talked to my parents and got in touch with a Lifestar therapist. And we were able to pretty quickly get into a sexual addiction recovery program.0:28:13 Daniel: So, now that you hear what's going on, you're able to get the right resources in there, at least different resources. So what was your experience? Was that... I asked these questions... I know you mentioned at the beginning you're divorced now, what was that experience like for you? Was it helpful?0:28:30 Anarie: It was very helpful, yes. I think we both felt a lot of relief that we had a problem that was identified, and that we could seek treatment for. So, there was a clear path for us to get on now. Whereas before it was like, "Something's wrong in our marriage, what's wrong? What's wrong? How do we fix this?" At least what was going on on my end. And with the pornography sexual addiction model, that gave, "Oh, there's a clear problem, there's a name for it, there's a name for what I'm experiencing, there's a treatment plan, there are other people that are experiencing this." So I feel like it immediately brought a sense of release and hope and safety that we would be able to figure this out.0:29:23 Daniel: For those who aren't familiar with Lifestar out in Utah, I think they're actually in a couple of different other states now but, for those who aren't familiar with addiction treatment, behavior treatment, what was that like? So you're saying now they're actually focusing on the pornography, and they're providing a treatment plan. Help the audience understand what does that mean? What does that look like?0:29:49 Anarie: Okay. So, the first part of Lifestar is called, Phase One, and it's a six-week education phase that couples attend together. If they want to. Sometimes individuals come 'cause their spouse won't come. But generally it's attended by couples, it's six weeks and basically it's kind of... I said educational 'cause the therapist presents information, and we had workbooks to do learning about addiction, learning about shame, some basic family of origin things. A little bit about drama triangle, attachment principles, and, during those we would sometimes break into smaller groups and share some answers from our workbooks. But for the most part, it was not a group therapy kind of experience.0:30:41 Anarie: Then after that six week, Phase One, then Phase Two starts, and that's when each person goes to their group therapy. So it's divided based on gender. So I had my group, and he had his group, and that was a group therapy, a weekly group therapy session. And we had additional workbooks and assignments that we would each work through in our individual groups; and their groups were led by a therapist. The Lifestar program is administered by different therapists, so it's like a franchise type of thing. And, the program that we did it in, the therapist really believes in not setting strict time parameters.0:31:29 Anarie: So, we were actually... Compared to some others where it's like phase two is six months and then you moved to the next phase. It was much more based on readiness and reaching a certain emotional place. So, compared to some other Lifestar group, I was in Lifestar for a total of three years before I completed it.0:31:50 Daniel: Is that...0:31:51 Anarie: And a lot of people do the Lifestar program in 18 months.0:31:54 Daniel: Yeah, you answered my question.0:31:54 Anarie: So I just wanna throw that out there, that's my experience, it's a little different from other Lifestar experiences. After about a year of... Or maybe 10 months of Phase Two, I graduated to Phase Three. And the reason for the different phases is just because it keeps people in the group that are in a similar stage of recovery, 'cause early recovery and fresh raw trauma looks and feels and sounds different than a little further down the recovery road. So, moving from Phase Two to Phase Three, it was more about...0:32:34 Anarie: There was a little change in focus, much less like raw trauma. And so, that's why there it was divided by phase. And in Phase Three, there were different assignments. One significant thing that's done... And they've changed it a little bit now, but there's a formal disclosure that happens during Phase Two, if both parties are willing, and it's a therapeutic disclosure. So the couple meet with the therapist, and it's a organized disclosure where the addict discloses to their spouse all of their behavior, behaviors in the addiction, and the spouse prepares questions in advance to ask.0:33:20 Anarie: So it's a chance to clear the air, start fresh, to ask questions in a safe environment, with a therapist you can hopefully watch for signs of lying or... And for me it was kind of healing because there had been a lot of unhealthy disclosure, it was helpful to have that formal disclosure where I had support, I knew it was coming, I had a therapist, I had friends. So in a way, that was able to heal some of the more traumatic earlier disclosures. So anyway, that was also...[overlapping conversation]0:33:52 Daniel: What a wonderful resource. So during that three years, you're taking it your own pace, working through your own trauma. So this is wonderful, you finally it sounds like now that you have your own cohort, so to speak, or a group of people that you can trust. You're able to now work through your trauma, your hurt, while he's dealing with his struggles. Did you see during that three-year period the relationship improve, or what was the result of attending these different phases?0:34:29 Anarie: Okay, so I do wanna throw in real quick that we also did individual therapy, we each had individual therapy sessions in the same group.0:34:35 Daniel: There at Lifestar, or somewhere separate?0:34:38 Anarie: We did it with the same therapist. So the therapist that led our lifestyle group was also the therapist we went to for our individual sessions, through most of it.0:34:49 Daniel: Excellent. So they understood what you were doing. And that's great. The reason why I point that out is, I think that's actually wonderful. In fact, studies show that if you only do group treatment, you don't have as high success rate. If you combine individual and group treatment, the success rate goes up. And the fact that your therapist was familiar with the program allowed that, I guess synergy, or you don't have to re-explain everything why you're doing what you're doing, or anything like that.0:35:22 Anarie: It integrated really well in taking place.0:35:24 Daniel: Exactly.0:35:25 Anarie: It was really helpful. We did have some couple sessions often on during that time mostly after disclosure and we did the couple sessions as well with the same therapist. When I was in phase three so in the third year of recovery I did go to an outside therapist for a period of time and that was really, really helpful for me. And looking back, I would say that I wish that we would have done some couples therapy with another therapist as well. I think because all of our treatment was coming from the same therapist there was some more... There were just some issues that came up with that but I think there might have been more safety if we had had some other therapist as well.0:36:08 Daniel: Would you point that out if you feel comfortable in doing that. I think that's actually a really important fact that people don't realize. There's a couple of elements here, and I'll share with you my thoughts, and then tell me what it was for you. I personally I'm very comfortable in doing individual and couples with the same people, there are limitations and there are exceptions there and that's usually discovered in the intake processes, is what we call it, and if I feel like it will be a benefit to both the individual and as a couple.0:36:43 Daniel: But there are cases where it's even if I'm comfortable with it, it's not a wise move or it's not a good way to support the couple because of the dynamics or whatever it is there and so a lot of clients will sometimes seek that from a therapist and there comes the other issues if a therapist is confident to navigate and to be able to separate the individual versus the couple experience there and sometimes bringing them together and so the individual seeking that kind of treatment both the individual and couples therapy, need to be aware of that in the risks and the benefits from that. What was your personal experience with that?0:37:27 Anarie: So, I feel that there were some very real benefit, because that therapist was aware, very aware of where each of us was individually. I think that that aided him in a lot of our sessions to... I don't know, I think he was aware of things that we didn't have to talk about 'cause he already knew but I think the biggest reason that I would say I wish we would have gone to someone else with kind of a safety thing.0:38:00 Anarie: So there were times that I felt like our therapist was on my husband's side, and there were times when my husband felt like the therapist was on my side. Whether or not that was accurate, I do think that... And maybe that would have happened with any therapist, but that came up. My perspective from me right now, and my therapist has acknowledged this, is that there was some manipulation, my husband manipulated the therapist. And that was part of why, when I went to an outside therapist, that was really helpful and empowering for me, because that other therapist had not been manipulated by my husband. So, I don't know.0:38:51 Daniel: That's... Yeah.0:38:54 Anarie: Because the therapists that we shared was so in it for multiple years and so he started giving blind spots and there are some things that he didn't see at the time that happens with any therapist.0:39:09 Daniel: Yeah, I think this is a very valid point, one that's kinda hard to communicate in a brief interview like this. And there's a lot of caveats here, I understand very well what you're talking about. I've even had to be very careful with working with couples that I'd known for a long time, or have been... Or I'm following up with, and knowing when and how to ask the right questions. It's very difficult when you have built that relationship, and you're not necessarily looking for all the signs of manipulation. And I'm gonna be cautious here. I'm tempted to say a good therapist can see those signs, but that means we would have to be perfect too.0:39:51 Anarie: Right. Yeah.0:39:52 Daniel: It's a very difficult experience.0:39:54 Anarie: Yeah. Well, and I think my main message to any of the listeners would be, I know it's really scary to get in with an initial therapist. At least it was for me. For me it was really scary to get into therapy, to build a relationship with a therapist, to be vulnerable about these things. So it was really scary to go find another therapist, another person, especially because I'd had some bad experiences...0:40:18 Daniel: Exactly.0:40:18 Anarie: With therapists before. I had some therapist trauma. But if you're feeling like you want another therapist, you want another perspective, a good therapist is not gonna be threatened by you wanting to go talk to somebody else for a period of time.0:40:31 Daniel: Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.0:40:34 Anarie: And you can get the support that you need to go talk to another therapist, or to go as a couple and try talking to another therapist.0:40:43 Daniel: I think you've brought up...0:40:44 Anarie: That you don't have to be still fiercely loyal to one therapist.0:40:50 Daniel: Absolutely, and I think that's a good way to approach it. First of all, trust your gut. You've had, whether there was actual manipulation going on or not, whether the therapist was siding with you or not, your experience is real and valid in that moment. There's a lot going on there's trauma, there's hurt, there's confusion. Trust your gut. First of all, trust your gut. And it is scary trying to get, especially if you've had bad experiences like you did with therapists, pose that question, "Do you mind if I look for another therapist for this?"0:41:25 Daniel: And their response I think will be a great indicator of maybe their motivation, or whether or not you should go get another therapist. If they get kind of awkward or embarrassed, or question, "Why would you do that?" Or if they even kind of stonewall in a way, "Well, we have all this history. How are you gonna communicate that history, and how will they follow our treatment plan?" That's a good indicator that you probably should go look a good therapist, like you said, will be totally supportive. Absolutely, go for it. This is your experience, do what you feel is important.0:42:07 Anarie: And I think sometimes, going to another therapist, I know this is sort of a tangent, but it could be motivated by wanting to run away from your current therapist. Maybe they're wanting you to look at some things you don't want to. So that could also be a factor but.0:42:22 Daniel: That is true. That's why it's hard. I think it's important to, kind of a tangent, but kind of not. This is all part of that experience in realizing what's happening here, especially when you have a partner who's manipulating you. Especially if there's been manipulation in the relationship, that therapist should be joining with you and building that trust, right?0:42:43 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah.0:42:46 Daniel: Yes there is a potential that you're running away, but you know what, you get to. You're having this experience and you need to have somebody who can trust you in this experience. And I've had people come back and say, "You know what? I was running away, and I realized that." And I'm putting it into my own words, but eventually he came out and says, "Thank you for letting me do that. I wouldn't have learned this if you prevented me or discouraged me from doing that."0:43:19 Anarie: Yeah.0:43:19 Daniel: And so, you're absolutely right. People are gonna run away when they don't like hearing what they're hearing but part of the experience is supporting that person in that experience, 'cause that's really what you're asking your husband to do, is, "This is scary. You should have been upfront with me from the beginning, regardless of my response. It's scary, I get it, this is scary for me, too. I need you to be open with me just like I should be open with you." And so, great, great. I think that was an important tangent. If we wanna call it a tangent. So...0:43:51 Anarie: One other thing I wanna...0:43:52 Daniel: Go for it.0:43:52 Anarie: Real quick, another part of my recovery over the last four years has been a 12 step program. The one that I have found most supportive was at a Lifeline group. So I did go to some of the LDS church's ARP program, and did not find them to be as supportive as I did the 12 step groups that are done through S.A Lifeline. [0:44:23] ____.0:44:24 Daniel: Oh, no, I think that's important. And if you could boil it down to one or two things. Why was it not as supportive...0:44:32 Anarie: Okay, so I wanna say at first ARP was wonderful, right at first, I'm super grateful that there was a place to go immediately, and that there was a place within a gospel context and within a gospel framework. So I did attend ARP continuously for about six months, and I was grateful for it. It met a need at the time. The biggest thing that I felt was not supportive about ARP, was actually the way that it was structured, that it was, it is missionaries that lead the ARP group, and a lot of them are not sufficiently educated on the topic on what they're dealing with.0:45:10 Daniel: Yeah.0:45:10 Anarie: And a lot of them spent a lot of time sharing. The missionaries would spend time sharing and teaching and lecturing things that were not actually helpful, were inadvertently shaming, and created a lack of safety. Another thing that I saw happen in the ARP group, in recovery there's a real need to give permission for emotion, and for letting your experience be what it is, and for having that experience be validated. And within the context of ARP, often it felt like there were certain emotions that were okay to have, and there certain emotions that were not okay.0:45:53 Anarie: Or that... And boundaries are important in any group, but I felt like there was not adequate space in ARP for anger. I felt like there was a real jump to forgiveness and share positive things and share faith things, faith-promoting things. And there's a place for that, but when you're down on the ground in, especially the immediate aftermath of trauma, there's so much anger and there's so much hurt. And there's, it rocks you spiritually.0:46:25 Anarie: I've gone through times where I don't even believe in God. I feel like, I know my betrayal that I experienced, it ran deep, a lot of it impacted my relationship with God. So there were times when I felt like I couldn't believe in God the way that that group was wanting me to believe in God. So for me it kind of increased the shame.0:46:47 Daniel: That is so...0:46:48 Anarie: Some of my shame experience there. Compared to the S.A Lifeline, where it's more general language, you talk about a higher power. And there I felt so much permission in that group to be wherever I was at, without feeling like I needed to show only the nicer part, or to be immediately jumping to the right way of saying things. If that makes sense?0:47:10 Daniel: I really appreciate you sharing that, about ARP. I think it's a great resource that is offered. I also agree that it's not for everyone, and I will say it's not for most people. I'm gonna say that very carefully for the very reason you've just mentioned. Untrained volunteers who are doing their best but not aware of how a lack of safety is created by reverting to forgiveness versus allowing that anger to be present and understanding how that can be healing in a group of people with a common experience.0:47:55 Anarie: Yeah.0:47:56 Daniel: Thank you so much. I don't wanna come across as criticizing ARP, I think it's a resource, but I think it's just that, a resource.0:48:06 Anarie: Yes, and I was incredibly grateful that it was there for me at the time, and by going there and talking to some of the people in the group, that's how I learned about some of these other resources as well. And I think that the experience in an ARP group it can be heavily dependent on who the missionaries are, and who else is there in the group.0:48:27 Daniel: Absolutely. So let's come... Thank you, I think that was very important. Let's come back around to... You have so much good information, I love it, I absolutely love it, but I'm trying to remember if we actually answered the question. In that three years of going to Lifestar, and these other various treatments, did we see progress in the relationship? What was a result of that?0:48:51 Anarie: Okay, so in terms of our relationship, we did not really, we were not very successful at connecting emotionally, through the three years. At different times we did. And I'm not entirely sure why. I felt like I made lots of individual progress, lots of individual healing and growth. And relationships with family, I saw relationships with my family members and with my friends, radically transforming and changing.0:49:38 Anarie: Within my marriage though, and my relationship with my husband, I was not seeing and experiencing much fundamental change. We were not connecting sexually, we were not connecting emotionally, really, through that process. We were supportive of each other in our individual journeys, but sort of in the same old like logistical business partner-y kind of way that it had been before.0:50:15 Daniel: So you don't want... You don't want a eternal business relationship, you want an eternal marriage.0:50:22 Anarie: Right.0:50:22 Daniel: So...0:50:23 Anarie: And I was... He might say The reason we didn't have a sexual relationship was because of my boundaries, and I would say, "Well my boundaries were where they were because there was still no emotional safety." I wasn't feeling... I didn't have trust restored, in like, I believe his disclosure was honest. I think I do.0:50:54 Daniel: You mean the disclosure in Phase One, or Phase Two?0:50:57 Anarie: The formal disclosure.0:51:00 Daniel: Okay.0:51:00 Anarie: Yeah, and I appreciated him sharing that. And immediately after there was some connection. He supposedly was able to achieve sobriety really early in the program. So a lot of times during the process of Lifestar, there's opportunity to work on conversation about experiences of pornography and slips, and disclosing that and working through that. And because he was so immediately sober, we didn't have much of that. So, I don't know.0:51:34 Daniel: So Tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important for the audience to hear, now quite a few episodes are available with my podcast. What is sobriety when we talk about sobriety? And it may sound like a stupid question, and you may be familiar with the way I've tried to define it, and explain what is pornography. So how did they measure that for the sake of the listener Sometimes the definition around pornography could be anything that could potentially lead to something more severe, for example, maybe looking at in a lingerie or Instagram or something like that. So how was... Did Lifestar create some sort of definition, or was this an agreed-upon sobriety? How did that get decided and navigated?0:52:25 Anarie: So, for us in Lifestar there, I think there was a certain expectation in the group of what sobriety is, which is not actively seeking out pornographic images or sexual stimulation, things that with... Because with the addiction model the addicts are turning to that as a way to medicate their feelings, and so it was a... They weren't sober if they actively went after something that would give them their sexual hits. So if they were searching for pornographic images, or...0:53:07 Daniel: Of any kind?0:53:08 Anarie: Of any kind. Or... I believe a lot of people in my husband's group, and I think in 12 steps as well, sort of had a 10-second fantasy rule, that if they engaged in fantasy for more than 10 seconds then that was considered a slip.0:53:31 Daniel: Okay.0:53:33 Anarie: Or they needed to share that with their stuff.0:53:36 Daniel: That's a pretty short, short window in reality.0:53:40 Anarie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.0:53:40 Daniel: But I actually like that concept because it's actually encouraging self-awareness. You're not penalized or you're not viewed, whether by your group yourself or whomever, as back to zero again because, oh, my goodness, my mind went into an automatic thought process, and now I have to... It seems impossible, but that self-awareness or that time allows you to become more, "Oh, my goodness, that's what's happening. Okay, I still have time to recover." And not have to count that as, "Oh, excellent, great." So he was basing sobriety, supposedly off of that.0:54:22 Anarie: Masturbation as well. No masturbation, no self-stimulation.0:54:26 Daniel: Got it.0:54:28 Anarie: But really, so much of it was about the lying. So no... And with my experience with my friends on the betrayal side of it, so much of it was about the lying and the hiding. So yes, it would hurt if there was a slip, but it in a way, it was almost healing to have those slips shared, 'cause then we were being let into that world, and we were a part of it.0:54:58 Daniel: So this is what's... What's really interesting to me, and not a criticism, 'cause I... Well, at least I like to think I understand the human behavior side of it, but now you've gotten at least, you're past phase one, into phase two, the disclosure has been made, you've had a ton of psychoeducation about what these patterns are like, and now creating this environment of trust where he can disclose to you. And you're actually finding healing from it. It feels, "Oh my goodness. You're open with me." Why would he hold that back? If you've made this success... Again, I know I'm asking you to kinda interpret from his experience.0:55:39 Anarie: Yeah, I'm not sure.0:55:41 Daniel: Okay.0:55:41 Anarie: I have wondered if shame... Just using the sexual addiction model, as like these behaviors are bad, coming from that background of these are bad and shameful, by disclosing, it's, I'm showing you again that I'm shameful.0:56:03 Daniel: For those who keep hearing the phrase, "sex addiction model", just to provide a little bit more clarity here, there are different theoretical approaches to treating sexual behavior. And one of them is what is being referred to here as this sex addiction model, which is places like Lifestar and other organizations, believe in treating this behavior. And you're bringing up an interesting point here, is even though the sex addiction model was very enlightening to you, it helped you as an individual. You made a comment about how it might have been reinforcing the shame. Is that what I heard?0:56:44 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was ideal scenario for him.0:56:51 Daniel: Can you say more about that?0:56:55 Anarie: Just because I feel like all through the recovery there was too much fear around it. Even if it was trying to be normalized, and other people struggle with this, I still feel like there was not an acknowledgement of how normal pornography use is. And I feel like there was still a lot of fear around it, and a lot of labeling of it as being bad and wrong, and...0:57:37 Daniel: So it...0:57:37 Anarie: It itself was still demonized a lot. Even if there was work done to navigate shame, like education about what role it's serving, and choosing more appropriate ways to meet some of those needs, it was still coming from this premise of, the pornography and the masturbation in and of itself is bad and wrong and... Yeah.0:58:11 Daniel: Yeah, well that makes sense. So, what I think I'm hearing here is, even though you've had this psycho-education, you're having this great support network, you're getting the resources you need for both of you and your relationship, there's a possibility that same treatment method was also reinforcing more fear. And so, even though he knew he could reveal to you, and that could be an opportunity for success and recovery, acknowledging that you slipped up again, you are now taking on all these...0:58:46 Anarie: Yeah, it still made him look like the bad guy.0:58:48 Daniel: Very much so. Again, not minimizing the seriousness of it, or giving him an excuse here, but the reality is, is when we demonize the use we then become and identify with that demon, so to speak. Right?0:59:05 Anarie: Yeah.0:59:05 Daniel: And so being able to acknowledge that even though you know you've done it, wow, that could really feed into, not only his fear, but your fear. What does it mean? You did this again. Who are you? Is that what I'm hearing?0:59:18 Anarie: Yeah, yeah. There in... I quite often heard it like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. There's the addict self and the true self. And I think there's some truth to that, and I also think it's problematic and was harmful, for both of us, to turn it into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of scenario. Because I believe it's more integrated.0:59:45 Daniel: This is an experience that I hear so many have, where they finally get the... I thought it was beautiful the way you described it, is they provided resources and information that resonated with you perfectly, things made sense. And your personal journey, you felt like you were getting the right support, the right help, he was being held responsible in the right way to divulge his information and his struggles. While you have this great resource, you're also seeing how it was problematic. What is...1:00:22 Anarie: Yeah, look... Oh sorry, go ahead.1:00:24 Daniel: No, absolutely, go ahead.1:00:26 Anarie: I was just gonna say, looking back there, we're dealing with a sexual issue, pornography, his masturbation, sexual addiction, but there was not much information given in our program about healthy sexuality...1:00:42 Daniel: Bingo.1:00:42 Anarie: About normal sexual development. And I know normal's a relative term, but human sexual development, there was not much information about that. Even with disclosure, hearing about a lot of the forms of acting out that he used, I still, during my time in recovery, there was so much fear that there was never really any normalization of some of those kinds of behaviors. So I would hear that he'd done this type of pornography that, to me, was extra scary and extra bad. And there was never any space to put that in a less terrifying way.1:01:30 Daniel: I think that's huge, and I think that's a thing that's missed in all treatment. Well, not all treatment, but a majority of treatment. Even in those clinics that are, like Lifestar, who are phenomenal at what they do, we focus on what not to do, right? But we don't actually explore and understand from a expert point of view, of what healthy sexual behavior looks like. We have these assumptions, but those assumptions aren't necessarily true, or need further expanding on.1:02:06 Daniel: But I also, what you said there was, the type of pornography, and there's huge misunderstandings around this. Pop-psychology, a lot of the predominant resources out there teach this idea that it's escalative behavior, and that is... There's very, very little support for that, in that somebody who's looking up maybe bondage type of pornography, or something very serious, or is perceived as something more serious than another, then that creates this whole new treatment model or severity around the person. Or there's something more sickening about the person, which is, again, problematic and not supported in treatment or in science. But you started to notice that.1:02:54 Anarie: Yeah. I feel like I needed to have my experience validated, so I was coming at it from a place of a lot of fear.1:03:03 Daniel: Of course.1:03:03 Anarie: In fact, it was really scary for me to listen to his disclosure. I had never watched a rated R movie myself at that time, and so to learn about these sexual behaviors and these kinds of pornography, that was a really scary thing for me, to have to learn about those things. And it was helpful for me to have others validate how scary and how much fear there was in that. At the same time, I feel like there could have been... I could have been validated in my fearful approach to it, and a more balanced view could have also been presented a little bit sooner, so my narrative could have been validated and some reframes could have been offered more.1:03:51 Daniel: So what would you recommend to somebody who's in your position, situation rather, and they're struggling with a similar behavior, their spouse is hiding, and you're seeking treatment? How would you... I guess what I'm asking is, What would you do different?1:04:11 Anarie: Or what would I do the same? What would I...1:04:13 Daniel: Oh yeah, fair, fair.1:04:14 Anarie: Recommend for someone in that place?1:04:16 Daniel: Yes.1:04:17 Anarie: For me, getting support from others and moving out of isolation, is so so scary. So wherever you can start to get that support from. For me, looking back, I have felt some like, "Oh, maybe we should have gone to a different program. Maybe if we would have found a better therapist." Or, "I should have not gone to ARP first, I should have... " It's really easy to get into some of that. But any support, any... Reach out to the people around you, look for the best resources that applaud any steps out of isolation, any effort to express your experience and get support. And permission to experience what you're experiencing, to feel what you're feeling.1:05:09 Anarie: However you're coming at it from, whatever you feel about it, those things are valid, and there's a place for it, and you don't need to feel ashamed for the way that you're experiencing it. So you... I heard a lot of messages about how betrayed spouses need to respond right to disclosure. So, if you freak out, they're not gonna share with you in the future. But... And there's truth to that. At the same time, when you're in fresh trauma it makes sense that you freak out and that you can't hold space for yourself the way that you might be able to further down the road. So, I guess just permission to be where you're at when you're there.1:05:57 Daniel: I really appreciate that insight right there. I will often... If we discover that disclosure has to be made, I can't tell you how valuable it is to, depending on which partner it is, in this case let's say the husband, pulling them aside, meeting with them individually and coaching them through this. "Look, it's gonna be rough. You don't try to manage your wife's feelings and emotions at all. Let her experience it. This is about revealing, building trust, and she gets to have her emotions just like you do. In this experience, allow her to be. In fact, encourage it." But that's, I think... Oh, that's a big one. Thank you for bringing that up.1:06:47 Anarie: And that is something I felt Lifestar did a really good job, of giving space for the betrayed partner to have their experience, for their trauma to be validated. And to expect that the addicted spouse needed to find support elsewhere, and that the betrayed person can't... You want to come together as a couple to address the issue together, but for a time maybe you can't do that. You need outside support, outside people. So...1:07:23 Daniel: Absolutely, so you now are divorced. It's been how long since the separation?1:07:27 Anarie: Four months since it was finalized, a year since we separated.1:07:29 Daniel: Four months. Alright. And do you feel like you're in a better place now?1:07:34 Anarie: I do, yeah.1:07:37 Daniel: Well, Anarie...1:07:39 Anarie: And I'm hopeful that he is as well, and that he will be.1:07:46 Daniel: Well, it sounds like you're making some important decisions to move forward, and that healing is occurring. And I can't tell you how much I personally appreciate you coming on here and sharing your information with everyone else. I can't tell you...1:08:00 Anarie: Well, I hope that it can be helpful. There was so much... Shame thrives in believing that you're the only one. And for so long I believed that I was the only one, or one of only a few. And particularly the sexless nature of my marriage didn't match a lot of what I heard about other...1:08:21 Daniel: No.1:08:22 Anarie: Addicted people. And I think that was part of what was so distressing too, it seemed to not fit. And since recovery I've found, no there are others who are experiencing this dynamic of being married to someone who's acting out sexually while having a sexless marriage and sexless relationship. And so, for a long time I was even nervous to tell other people in my recovery circle about what kind of sexless marriage I'd had because often I was in a minority. So, for that reason I wanna share my story because I know now that I'm not the only person experiencing that kind of dynamic.1:09:03 Daniel: It's so much more common then people realize.1:09:04 Anarie: And when you... When you feel like it's just you, when you feel shame for your shameful experience, it's just so much more painful. So I know now that I'm not the only one experiencing that, so I wanna share that so that others can know as well, that this is part of the experience too.1:09:24 Daniel: I could assure you, the people listening right now are comforted by that comment. You did mention one other thing, before we go. I can't remember if we were personally talking about it offline or if it was at the beginning. You said one of the concerns, or... And maybe you have addressed it in a round about way. But one of the concerns you had about this treatment process, just the whole process I guess, was, yes, you got solutions, you got treatment plans for the porn and sexual behaviors, but some of the underlining issues weren't addressed.1:10:02 Anarie: Yes.1:10:02 Daniel: Do you mind talking about that for a second?1:10:04 Anarie: Yeah. So, in terms of our relationship and what was actually going on in our relationship, I feel like the pornography was a symptom of other things that were going on. So in spending a couple of years honing in specifically on pornography, and the pornography use, and regulating and learning about that, it took a couple of years before we started actually looking at more of our relationship dynamics, that were actually more of our problem. And it's linked, so it's not like... Okay.1:10:50 Anarie: But in a way I feel like the focus on the pornography use was able to feed... We almost... It started to become a part of some of our underlying issues. We almost used it in old unhealthy ways. So, in terms of what the underlying issue was, there was some control and power manipulation, lying, unhealthy shame management, enmeshment, differentiation issues, sexual shame, repressed sexuality. Some of those things... We spent so much time on the regulating sobriety and porn behaviors that by the time we started actually getting to the real meat of stuff, it took a couple of years.1:11:48 Daniel: Which is absolutely a case I see quite frequently here. We may resolve the pornography, the addictive behaviors, but when that's gone what happens is exactly what you described. You're going to this, you're healing, but where's the connection? The absence of porn and undesired sexual behaviors does not create connection.1:12:16 Anarie: Yes, yes, yes. [chuckle]1:12:18 Daniel: Right?1:12:19 Anarie: Yeah. Yep.1:12:19 Daniel: And so, this is an element that is always... Again, I'm using always. Not always the case. Is too often overlooked, because we do, we make the symptom, which is the pornography, the problem. And we think if we get rid of the problem, which is actually just the symptom... There's clearly something else going on here with the constant manipulation. And unfortunately, the way... The addiction model, or pop psychology, whatever we wanna refer to it or blame it on, tells us that manipulation is a result from the escalating behavior. Well, we're finding that it's actually an underlying issue that's unresolved and not treated. And then the pornography, in a sense, becomes yet another form of manipulation to cover that real problem. It's this benign tumor that just is hidden somewhere we can't find it. Right?1:13:17 Anarie: Yes. And pornography addiction recovery can, in a sense, end up being used as a tool of manipulation.1:13:25 Daniel: Yes.1:13:25 Anarie: And, there was something I was gonna say. I can't remember.1:13:33 Daniel: Now, if it comes back to you feel free to jump in.1:13:36 Anarie: Sorry. [chuckle]1:13:36 Daniel: But I think that you hit... I think one of the biggest takeaways from this is not to neglect the... We focus too often on getting rid of something. I phrase it... You went to treatment at the beginning, no one talked about pornography, and then you went to Lifestar where pornography was finally talked about, but yet connection wasn't addressed. If there was some way that we can address both the undesired behavior and the desired behavior... And in my practice, I always say, "Let's focus on the desired outcome. What is the desired outcome? Okay, you're using pornography right now, the desired outcome isn't just to stop that.1:14:20 Daniel: The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer to you, I wanna feel connection. Okay, even if you saw some pornography today, I still wanna come home and have a meaningful discussion with you, I wanna have meaningful sex, I wanna feel close to you. If that means getting rid of the pornography, great. If it means we need to understand how to communicate better, let's do that too." And it sounds like that was an element that was missed, at least in your experience.1:14:52 Anarie: Yeah, and it was talked about, and I... Connection, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That's a phrase that I heard a lot in recovery. So there was a lot of talk about connection.1:15:06 Daniel: Yeah, but we're discovering, it sounds like you did too... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth at all. Is the absence of the addiction doesn't re-result in connection.1:15:18 Anarie: Yes, yeah, yeah.1:15:19 Daniel: So we talk about it a lot, but we don't actually, I think, create a treatment plan around that and try to improve it.1:15:27 Anarie: Yeah. And I do wanna say that I am grateful that pornography... Because pornography was labelled as an issue, as a problematic thing, it gave a doorway into some therapy and some information that was incredibly helpful. So I am grateful that there was this issue and there are these programs that help, that were able to catch me and help me get directed into some real therapeutic help.1:16:00 Daniel: Absolutely. Well, you've given us so, so much to think about here. And I know it may sound redundant, but I'm gonna ask again, any final thoughts or things you wanna leave us with?1:16:13 Anarie: I do wanna share just some of the things beyond betrayal trauma that I needed to learn, and that were an important part of my recovery, and my process of learning how to be a healthy individual in a healthier relationship. Because there were definitely

Episode 143 Suicide Panel: The plea to “Stay in Your Body” Part 2 Welcome back to the Love Your Story podcast. Today is Part 2 of the Suicide Panel Discussion. If you missed last week’s discussion – go back and grab it – these 4 panelists are a powerhouse, and I must admit, just when I thought I knew what one of them was going to say, they surprised me with a different insight. I put together this panel because of my own shock at what is being called the suicide “epidemic.” It used to be that every once in a while you’d hear about someone taking their own life, but it wasn’t often and it was said in hushed tones. Now, it seems like every week I hear of someone else committing suicide and I’m shocked and filled with questions. What has cause the increase in suicide? Why now? What’s going on out there in battle for our lives? We all know that space of feeling disconnected, of being frustrated that life/relationships/career didn’t turn out as we expected. I’m sure at one time or another we’ve all felt alienated. It’s when those feelings of disconnection and alienation combine with the hopelessness that things will never change that suicide has become an all too familiar option. But what is the cause of so much hopelessness? Tune in for the rest of our discussion with this dynamic panel:   Cherie Burton has worked as a group counselor at a psychiatric hospital, an addiction recovery center and a behavioral facility for teen boys.  She has stepped away from clinical work to inspire women worldwide to reach their full potential through books, workshops and retreats. Her work as an author, podcaster, international business owner, speaker, mom of 5, emotional release facilitator and leadership development trainer has helped thousands of women magnify their gifts and find wholeness. Cherie’s sister took her own life and this has affected Cherie’s work. Link to Cherie Burton’s podcast: Women Seeking Wholeness – https://cherieburton.com/category/womenseekingwholeness/   Ganel-Lyn Condie is a popular motivational speaker – known for inspiring others with her unique honesty, authenticity and spirit. She is dedicated to her family, faith, and inspiring others. Ganel-Lyn loves teaching others with speaking and writing. She has experienced healing from a major chronic illness and is the mother to two miracle children. After the heart-breaking suicide of her 40-year-old sister, Ganel-Lyn is constantly working towards prevention. Ganel-Lyn lives with an open heart and feels passionate about sharing principles that will empower others to live life with more joy. She is a regular television and radio guest. Ganel-Lyn’s talks and books have now encouraged thousands of people all over the world. She loves growing older with her cute husband Rob and aims to keep learning and loving. For links to Ganel-Lyn’s books, talks, and platform: http://www.ganellyn.com/   Megan Cook Johnson received a Masters Degree in Social Work from BYU in 2008. She has been a therapist at LDS Family Services for 10 years where her focus has been treating Depression and Anxiety. She had recently been trained in Hypnotherapy and is working on starting a private practice. Megan is the Co-Founder of The Emily Effect Foundation, an organization that honors her late sister Emily and seeks to raise awareness and improve resources for those experiencing Postpartum Mood Disorders. Link to the Emily Effect Foundation: https://theemilyeffect.org/   Seth Adam Smith is a best-selling, award-winning author and blogger whose writings have been translated into over thirty languages and featured on the Huffington Post, Good Morning America, Fox News, CNN, the Today show, Forbes, and many other news outlets around the world. In 2015, his book “Your Life Isn’t for You” was awarded a gold medal for inspirational memoir. A survivor of a...

Episode 142 Suicide Panel: The plea to “Stay in Your Body” According to SAVE – Suicide Awareness and Voices of Education (who uses the most recent data available from the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization) the following facts show us the current state and rate of suicide in the US. Suicide is the 10thleading cause of death in the US for all ages. (CDC) Every day, approximately 123 Americans die by suicide. (CDC) There is one death by suicide in the US every 12 minutes. (CDC) Depression affects 20-25%of Americans ages 18+ in a given year. (CDC) Suicide takes the lives of over 44,965 Americans every year. 80% -90% of people that seek treatment for depression are treated successfully using therapy and/or medication. Welcome back to the Love Your Story podcast. Every human soul is precious. We all know that space of feeling disconnected, of being frustrated that life/relationships/career didn’t turn out as we expected. I’m sure at one time or another we’ve all felt alienated. It’s when those feelings of disconnection and alienation combined with the hopelessness that things will never change that suicide has become an all too familiar option. What is the cause of so much hopelessness? Why is suicide so prevalent now that the word ‘epidemic’ has been used to describe it? What is the cause and what is the solution? Today I have an amazing panel put together on the topic of suicide. These men and women have personal experience with suicide – either with family members or in Seth’s case, his own personal experience. We have put this panel together because we care. Because suicide as a supposed solution is out of control and we need to find answers, reduce shame, and shine a light of hope. Let me introduce the panel members and we’ll see if we can answer any of these questions and gain some insight and even hope. Cherie Burton has degrees in psychology and sociology and has worked as a group counselor at a psychiatric hospital, an addiction recovery center and a behavioral facility for teen boys.  She has stepped away from clinical work to inspire women worldwide to reach their full potential through books, workshops and retreats. Her work as an author, podcaster, international business owner, speaker, mom of 5, emotional release facilitator and leadership development trainer has helped thousands of women magnify their gifts and find wholeness. Cherie’s sister took her own life and this has affected Cherie’s work. Link to Cherie Burton’s podcast: Women Seeking Wholeness – https://cherieburton.com/category/womenseekingwholeness/   Ganel-Lyn Condie is a popular motivational speaker – known for inspiring others with her unique honesty, authenticity and spirit. She is dedicated to her family, faith, and inspiring others. Ganel-Lyn loves teaching others with speaking and writing. She has experienced healing from a major chronic illness and is the mother to two miracle children. After the heart-breaking suicide of her 40-year-old sister, Ganel-Lyn is constantly working towards prevention. Ganel-Lyn lives with an open heart and feels passionate about sharing principles that will empower others to live life with more joy. She is a regular television and radio guest. Ganel-Lyn’s talks and books have now encouraged thousands of people all over the world. She loves growing older with her cute husband Rob and aims to keep learning and loving. For links to Ganel-Lyn’s books, talks and platform: http://www.ganellyn.com/   Megan Cook Johnson received a Masters Degree in Social Work from BYU in 2008. She has been a therapist at LDS Family Services for 10 years where her focus has been treating Depression and Anxiety. She had recently been trained in Hypnotherapy and is working on starting a private practice. Megan is the Co-Founder of The Emily Effect Foundation, an organization that...

Alex Wittingham is a Utah resident, lifetime member of the LDS church, student, returned missionary (New Zealand), football player and son of University of Utah head football coach, Kyle Wittingham and his wife Jamie. Following his missionary service Alex began playing football as a long snapper on the U of U football team. Alex loved his mission, had wonderful companions and a supportive mission president. However, he returned home early following 15 months of dedicated service. The reason for his early release was a combination of anxiety, depression and OCD tendencies. 5:02 Recognized some OCD tendencies by age 12 but assumed it was normal and didn’t have a name for it. There was no dramatic increase in the intensity level until his missionary service when feelings of anxiety were exacerbated without the relief valves he enjoyed before his mission (movies, being with friends). 9:04 Alex discusses his decision to serve a mission and feeling a lack of confidence as he tried to envision himself as a missionary. Was nevertheless overjoyed in being called to serve in New Zealand. 11:40: MTC experience brought on added anxiety, notwithstanding wonderful and supportive fellow missionaries who helped him cope. 14:00 Arriving in New Zealand and facing new realities: contacting strangers. Obsessing over scrupulosity, even though he had done everything necessary to render himself worthy to serve prior to entering the mission field. Being OCD and living in a world of spartan obedience to rules. 18:45 His anxiety and other issues came and went in phases during his missionary service. Opening up to his family in P-day letters was therapeutic. 21:00 Confiding in empathetic companions and his very supportive mission president. Referred to LDS Family Services in New Zealand. 23:15 Turning point—beginning to feel at peace regarding the value of his missionary service and the likelihood of an early departure. 26:10 Returning home; weekly counseling continued; coping and managing; useful medications and learning new coping skills. 27:50 Being supported by family and close friends through any feelings of “stigma.” “Your mission is between you and God.” 29:40 The role of his loving stake president and his reassuring bishop in helping him get re-integrated into the ward family. 31:00 Concluding thoughts: Alex is glad he served and loved his mission. It was life-changing and not a mistake. It had not occurred to him, prior to his mission, that he suffered from anything out of the ordinary. He’s glad there now seem to be more pre-mission questions regarding mental wellness. He wonders if leaders recommending candidates for missions should obtain the view of the youth’s parents about any possible emotional or mental conditions that would impact on the ability to serve. 36:12 Why Alex suddenly chose to tweet about his experience following the suicide of a popular singer—desire to help someone else. Describes response to his tweet and a related article in a local newspaper. 38:50 Words of encouragement to fellow sufferers—You are not alone. There is support in the form of angels on earth. Don’t be afraid to reach out and accept help. Links: The OCD Mormon Chad Lewis Interview Salt Lake Tribune Article Anxiety Disorders and Mormonism Conference Discount Code: Leading Saints

Kari Ferguson is a wife, mother, BYU graduate, returned missionary, author and experienced local church leader, presently serving as a relief society president. She has also suffered for many years from obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) and anxiety. Kari and Jamund, her husband of nine years, reside in Vancouver, Washington and are the parents of two children. Kari can also be found on LDS Living and The Mighty. Her newest book is The OCD Mormon: Finding Healing and Hope in the Midst of Anxiety. Following is a summary of their podcast interview in which Kari and Jamund discuss symptoms of OCD and its debilitating effects. Suggestions are offered as to how LDS leaders can exhibit sensitivity, and help OCD sufferers in their flock in ways that do not marginalize them or trivialize their condition. Many people with OCD and acute anxiety are very capable of rendering high-quality service in the ward, but it helps to understand what they are up against. The interview concludes with a description of a planned March 3, 2018 conference devoted to OCD/anxiety disorders among church members. It will be held in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. Episode Highlights 4:35—What prompted Kari to write her new book, as a follow-up to an earlier book and her blogsite: https://www.theocdmormon.com. 6:15—Jamund describes meeting Kari and relates his own family background dealing with a parent’s bi-polar disorder, making him more sensitive to the needs of someone with Kari’s condition. 8:08—Kari’s symptoms described; previous issues while serving as primary president; being supported by her husband; being called as relief society president by a bishop who became aware of her condition; learning to delegate; not comparing oneself to the last person who occupied the same position/calling. 12:13—Dealing with the stigma; more symptoms described (hoarding, fear of contamination, hit-and-run fears, tapping, etc.). OCD sufferers tend to hide it with facades, and too many are not getting needed help. 15:04—Knowing when professional intervention is required; living a balanced and healthy life; constant need for reassurance; obsessing over repentance; leaders can recommend professional help without giving offense; missing work and losing sleep; getting “sick” at last minute to avoid social situations; avoiding shopping for fear of contamination. 20:26—The big decision for Kari to seek professional counseling; feeling like a failure; the challenge of finding the “right” therapist. 22:25—Medicine, therapy or both? Changing behavior vs masking it; developing coping skills; perfectionism. 25:04—Is the root cause of a person’s OCD irrelevant? OCD can steal your life; cognitive-behavior therapy; international OCD website; retraining the brain; church leader empathy alone is likely not sufficient to help a person overcome acute OCD. 29:00—Religious scrupulosity/perfectionism; LDS Family Services or another path for intervention? Spousal support. 33:00—Healing and coping will often require more than reading scriptures, praying more often and attending the temple. Connection between mental and spiritual; leaders should avoid tendency towards on-the-spot diagnosis. Leader listening skills paramount. 40:00— Decreasing the stigma and creating a culture/climate where it can be discussed in a healthy way at the ward level. Reference to an apostle who dealt with some mental health issues. 45:23—Just how capable are people with OCD—can they serve in leadership capacity? Allowing for flexibility in how things are done. 52:45—If you are a sufferer, set realistic expectations for yourself; essential vs. non-essential decisions. Kari’s envelope-licking issue. 55:40—Does a person ever get totally cured? More on symptoms and coping mechanisms. 58:20—Why leaders should make room for people to serve, even if they have issues. 1:00:00—More on scrupulosity, perfectionism and constant guilt; feelings of being beyond the rea...

This weeks news we discuss: Mysterious illness caused by weed: http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Mysterious-illness-tied-to-marijuana-use-on-the-rise-in-states-with-legal-weed-408565045.html Carrie Fisher's death linked to drug use: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-carrie-fisher-autopsy-report-20170619-story.html 14 M lethal doses of Fentanyl seized: http://fox5sandiego.com/2017/06/20/14m-lethal-doses-of-fentanyl-seized-in-lemon-grove/ Step 2 of ARP (found at arp.lds.org) is about HOPE We sit down with Courtney and discuss her addiction to compulsive eating. Are you a compulsive eater ? Take the test here: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/screening-tool Over Eaters Anonymous: https://oa.org As always, the opinions expressed here are those of the hosts and guest and do not represent the LDS church or LDS Family Services. Find an ARP meeting to attend by clicking here: Arp.lds.org

We are excited to release an interview with Jen Parkinson that has many fascinating components, including: *Her devout LDS upbringing and bout with perfectionism while a youth and as a missionary *Her first marriage to a gay man, unbeknownst to her *Experiences with LDS Family Services in addressing her husband’s sexual orientation *Her resulting divorce and intense feelings of guilt and shame *The experience of seeking a sealing cancellation and how it made her relive the nightmare of her divorce *Dating and marrying her current husband *Working for BYU-Idaho and the gender disparity she observed *Her husband’s faith transition and her reaction to it by “quintupling down” on her beliefs *How leaving her job at BYU gave her the freedom to learn and question *Her own faith transition and hope for the future

We are excited to release an interview with Jen Parkinson that has many fascinating components, including: *Her devout LDS upbringing and bout with perfectionism while a youth and as a missionary *Her first marriage to a gay man, unbeknownst to her *Experiences with LDS Family Services in addressing her husband’s sexual orientation *Her resulting divorce and intense feelings of guilt and shame *The experience of seeking a sealing cancellation and how it made her relive the nightmare of her divorce *Dating and marrying her current husband *Working for BYU-Idaho and the gender disparity she observed *Her husband’s faith transition and her reaction to it by “quintupling down” on her beliefs *How leaving her job at BYU gave her the freedom to learn and question *Her own faith transition and hope for the future

We are excited to release an interview with Jen Parkinson that has many fascinating components, including: *Her devout LDS upbringing and bout with perfectionism while a youth and as a missionary *Her first marriage to a gay man, unbeknownst to her *Experiences with LDS Family Services in addressing her husband’s sexual orientation *Her resulting divorce and intense feelings of guilt and shame *The experience of seeking a sealing cancellation and how it made her relive the nightmare of her divorce *Dating and marrying her current husband *Working for BYU-Idaho and the gender disparity she observed *Her husband’s faith transition and her reaction to it by “quintupling down” on her beliefs *How leaving her job at BYU gave her the freedom to learn and question *Her own faith transition and hope for the future

Jay detoxes from Social Media... Is Social Media the new nicotine ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-maher-social-media-drug-dealers_us_5916a78ce4b0031e737dd975 LSD Church and Scouting: http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/faith/as-dust-settles-on-lds-church-decision-questions-arise-on/article_61768c8a-adc7-52b4-bc85-0a9eeff22bb0.html https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng Will you wear the Bro-Romper ? http://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/news/a55081/romper-for-men-romphim/ Jay shares his experience with Step 12- Service Jay and Brad sit down with Jen, whose husband is a porn addict. Thank you for listening- please take a minute to rate us on Itunes, Sticher or Soundcloud. The opinions expressed are those of the hosts/guests and do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or LDS Family Services.

Is social media addicting ? We think so and so do a lot of other people. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-maher-social-media-drug-dealers_us_5916a78ce4b0031e737dd975 Anonymity and AA http://anonpress.org/bb/foreword.htm Step 11- Personal Revelation. https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/steps/11?lang=eng Ask the Addict with Jenae- The LDS Girl in Recovery @ldsgirl_inrecovery Opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not represent LDS Family Services or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This podcast is not affiliated with the church, though we fully believe in its teachings.

SHARKS !!! Sharks are in the water in Southern California http://www.sanclementetimes.com/san-clemente-beaches-remain-closed-sharks-spotted-pier-trestles-capo-beach/ Discussion on Depression/Anxiety and medication. Jay has shares some of his strong opinions from his experience: http://religionnews.com/2017/04/25/mormon-women-and-depression-revisited/ Step 10 Share from Jay Ask the Addict with Brian. Brian started smoking weed and drinking heavily in high school. He walked back into church a few weeks ago after about 15 years of separation. Listen to his story of hope. The opinions expressed are those of the persons who shared them and do not represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, LDS Family Services. We are a group of brothers and sisters who share our faith and hope in recovery and share what we have learned along the way.

****We are sorry for poor sound quality in this episode. We have adjusted our microphones and upgrades a few things. Future episodes will be much better. PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS STILL --->>its an amazing episode. **** This week in News: New mutual theme: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865669976/2017-Mutual-Theme-challenges-youth-to-Ask.html How does Social Media affect our mood ? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/social-media-children-teens-tweens-less-happy/ Early substance USE predicts addiction. https://www.addictionnow.com/2017/01/04/early-substance-use-forecasts-grim-future/ To learn more about the steps or find a meeting go to: lds.arp.org The opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests. They do not represent the LDS church or LDS Family Services.