The Courageous Pastors Podcast

Shawn catches up with old friend Jeff Kapusta, Senior Pastor of Lifepoint Church in Wilmington, N.C. They talk church planting, leadership, and the upcoming Courageous Pastors Gathering being hosted at Lifepoint this February 2024.  Register for The Courageous Pastors Gathering   

Join Greg and Shawn at The Courageous Pastors Gathering 2024 this February! To register: visit www.courageouspastors.com/gathering Use promo code "PODCAST" for a special rate! In this episode, Shawn is joined by Greg Surratt, founding Pastor of Seacoast Church and co-founder of ARC (Association of Related Churches).  Shawn and Greg discuss Greg's journey in ministry and his new book, "The Endurance Factor," which emphasizes the importance of maintaining well-being and finishing strong in ministry.  -------------------------- The Endurance Factor on Amazon The Courageous Pastors Gathering    

In this episode, Shawn welcomes his friend Rodney Gage, Pastor, author, and co-founder of Rethink Life Church, to discuss the heart behind his bestselling book, "The Double Win: How to Win at Work and at Home." Rodney emphasizes the common struggle of work-life balance and challenges the cultural myth that success requires sacrificing one aspect of life for another. They delve into the importance of vision, values, and humility in building trust and fostering togetherness within families. Discover practical insights for achieving the double win in both your career and personal life. Check out "The Double Win" by Rodney Gage on Amazon Rodney and Michelle Gage's "The Winning Family Podcast" WinningFamily.com ---- Click to Book a Call: CourageousPastors.com/Strategy  

In this episode, Shawn Lovejoy sits down with Harold Melton, former Chief Justice of the Georgia Supreme Court. Having spent years working within the court system, Harold brings a unique perspective on the concept of justice, and defines it in three simple words: "the right response." He emphasizes the importance of personal involvement and mentorship in healing unhealed trauma, shedding light on the practical steps we can all take to contribute to positive change. Register for  The Courageous Pastors Gathering 2024  - Use code "PODCAST" for a discount exclusive to our podcast listeners! CourageousPastors.com    

Did you know, in the next decade, that most people will be holding their wealth in non-cash assets instead of their checking & savings accounts? This shift is crucial for the local church to understand, especially when it comes to giving encouragement. As times change, we must adapt our approach to align with the evolving financial realities of our congregation. Vance Roush is the Founder/CEO of Overflow, whose mission is to inspire your church with a faster, simpler and more accessible way to give. He dives into the changing landscape of wealth and its impact on the local church. Overflow.co Vance Roush Instagram Book a Free Strategy Session CourageousPastors.com

This week Shawn steps back to the mic to interview one of his first coaching clients ever, Chris Bell.  Chris leads 3 Circle Church, a five campus church in South Alabama. Shawn and Chris talk about growing in healthy ways. Growth doesn't always equal health. Bad things— like weeds— can grow quickly. Rather than focusing on the growth, we want to look at the soil— the culture.  As the church grows, such that you can no longer be in every room, the culture remains. Therefore, it's essential that you work on the culture.  In reality, every church and organization already has a culture. This leads us to questions such as—  * Is the culture we have a culture we actually want?  * Have we created this culture, or did it just “happen” by accident? * Are there things in our culture we need to change?  Furthermore, Chris talks about what to do when you drift from the culture you want— and how even those moments can become teaching opportunities for your team.    +++++++++++   3 Circle Church = https://www.3circlechurch.com  Pastor Chris on Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/pastorchrisbell/     Book a free Strategy Session = www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy   See other posts on our site about culture: https://www.courageouspastors.com/blog?tag=%2Aculture  

In this episode, JC interviews his very best friend (and his wife's bestie, as well), Jeremy and Corrie Isaacs. Jeremy and Corrie share a unique burden to minister marriages. They come from two different backgrounds. Jeremy's parents had a solid marriage, but he never saw them “live out” the conflict— nor was he taught how to manage it. Corrie was raised by a single mom— with no marriage example to follow (her mother was married four times). However, she saw incredible marriages before her at church… and realized Jesus could restore everything. The two of them believe that God not only CAN redeem your marriage, but can also enable your marriage to tell a bigger story than you imagine possible.   ++++++++ See Jeremy's coaching page at Courageous Pastors: https://www.courageouspastors.com/jeremy Find Generations Church online: https://www.g.church/ To book a Strategy Session go to www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy To learn more about building your killer team, grab your free book at www.KillerTeamBook.org

Kyle Jackson brings a unique perspective to the Courageous Pastors Podcast. Usually, with speak senior leaders, but Kyle brings his experience as a campus pastor and let us know things like:  How to support the vision of the leader you're following, as well as How to lead well when you're not in charge He's actually be on staff with his wife, too, for 13 of the 15 years he's been in ministry. His wife is a worship leader where he serves.   Kyle is the son of an evangelist. He walked away from church from 18-25, but reconnected when he attended a mobile church— in a high school. After about 13 weeks of standing “in row 10, with his arms crossed,” he began connecting… and continued taking next steps.  He became a teaching pastor. Then a coach. And then continued growing.   Through some relationships, he transitioned to becoming a campus pastor with Church of the Highlands, to launch the first “out of the state” campus in Columbus, Georgia. They launched in August 2019— and closed 6 months later (for Covid). Then, re-launched when everything opened up again.    ++++++++ To book a Strategy Session go to www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy  To learn more about building your killer team, grab your free book at www.KillerTeamBook.org 

In this episode, Kevin and JC discuss Kevin's journey from “his call” to pastoring to serving as an executive pastor— and how he knew he didn't want to be the “lead guy” at the church but wanted to serve as the XP. It's a good word. Most staff members are not going to serve as the senior pastor. Most will be the number 2, number 3, or something else. Kevin and JC talk about several important factors:    ⭐️ the importance of execution— of getting things done.  Specifically, the discuss vision and trust, and identify how to know when you move forward without waiting for instruction as well as how to know when to ask permission.    ⭐️ the importance of EQ as opposed to IQ. Most of the time, leaders aren't fired (or hired) because of their Intelligence Quotient but because of their Emotional Quotient— of their ability to relate to people.    ⭐️ the importance of the team. We function better together. Face it, leadership— at ANY level— is lonely.  Sometimes that's a function of leadership— it CAN be lonely at the top. But we make it lonelier than it has to be.   ⭐️ the importance of decision-making. Sometimes you need to be attached to the outcome. Many times you don't need to be. In fact, most to the time you don't.   ⭐️ the importance of honor. Kevin talks about “taking the bullet” when needed— and of deferring to the mission and the people who are part of it.    ___________________ Links for this show—  Join us for Building a Killer Team Live— www.KillerTeam.live Claim your free Killer Team Book— www.KillerTeamBook.org Kevin's page on the CourageousPastors.com site = www.CourageousPastors.com/kevin  On Instagram, @KevinLloydLive 

In this talk we divide the content from the past 23 talks into 7 “buckets,” that is, 7 repeating themes we saw. #1 = Be you (not a knock-off of some other leader). #2 = Take care of you. You can't pour from an empty cup, serve from dry well, run on an empty tank… you get the idea. #3 = Race relations are tough— and are worth the work. And they're tough. And they're worth the work. And tough. And worth it. And they are part of bringing the presence of the Kingdom. #4 = The pandemic happened. Regardless of where you stand politically or medically or on any other issue, culture shifted and that radically changed how we do church. #5 = One of the changes is that church moved out of the building. For sure, we don't want to stay out of the four walls— as if it's an either-or decision. We want to do both, gather and scatter. #6 = Look back to the past— not to see failures and frustrations but to see the faithfulness of God. When we see our history with Him, and where He's brought us, we gain confidence to keep stepping forward. #7  = Coach-ability. It matters. Never underestimate the value of an outside voice to speak into your life and give you perspective, unleash new potential, and push you beyond what you dreamed possible. Finally, tie it all together… A lot of people think the church is in trouble, that it's going to disappear. Don't believe it. J.I. Packer was asked years ago, “Who's the best preacher?” He replied, “You don't know him.” When pushed, he replied that not even he knew him because God has people all over, everywhere— just like Elijah didn't realize there were 7,000 more besides him… that is true today. Join a tribe. We'd love to have you.   Learn more at www.CourageousPastors.com/blog/024

Clay Smith took over Johnson Ferry Baptist Church just before the pandemic hit. He was 40 at the time, following a leader who planted the church and had been there since he was 2. Now 43, Clay looks back and shares some of the lessons he's learned about following a legacy leader. “First, you are an interim,” he says, “We are all coming and going.”  That is, you might be at your church for 3 months, for 3 years, or for 30 like Clay's predecessor… but your job is temporary. That said, Clay highlights five lessons he's learned— and is still learning. “We're all learning,” he reminds us.

Jonathan Moore is the Founding and senior pastor of NorthRock Church in San Antonio. He met Shawn at the Velocity Conference, over a decade ago, when Shawn was in Atlanta. NorthRock launched a campus during the middle of the pandemic AND relaunched second campus in a different spot (this campus was in a school, which could no longer be used). Right now, Jonathan is telling leaders to take care of themselves. “Self-care has always been important,” he suggests, “but the previous two years have highlighted why we need to pay attention to it.” As he works to “rebuild the church” he's also working on rebuilding himself. This “rebuilding you” occurs when you start scheduling you first— your time alone with the Lord, your time to exercise, your time to connect with your spouse. A healthy you is a better you and can more readily lead the church forward in healthy ways. “This also includes,” Jonathan adds, “living with healthy rhythms…” Those rhythms include things like— Daily diversions (moving away from the grind of the urgent and into the un-rush of the important) Weekly withdrawals (Sabbath, a true day off) Quarterly quarantines (these may be different, depending on where you are— but certain season deplete us and necessitate rest) Annual abandonments (taking a vacation where you completely check out) Jonathan encourages leaders to be intentional about their time off. “Work on you while you're off,” he says. “Use that time to do something that builds you.”   ++++++++++++ Personal Gears of Growth  = assess the five areas where we all need to grow, find the weak point, and gain momentum by starting there: https://www.courageouspastors.com/offers/PzhK2GiJ Connect with Jonathan online:  @JonathanDMoore  NorthRock Church, San  Antonio = https://www.northrocksa.com Schedule a free strategy session at www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy

JC Worley leads Go Church in South Atlanta. He and his wife, Kimberly, lead Go Church. Go Church was the host location for the first-ever Courageous Pastors Gathering, and— more relevantly to this talk— JC is taking a more proactive role with CourageousPastors.com.   From 2006 until 2013, JC was the youth pastor at Go Church, for his father-in-law. He left to plant a church in the Metro D.C., area, with his father-in-law's blessing. They launched— and led— the church for 4 years. His father-in-law approached him about retiring and taking over his home church at that point. After much prayer— and wise counsel— JC and his wife relocated BACK to Atlanta, transitioning the Maryland location into a satellite.   This year, at Easter, Go Church launched a 3rd campus in the Atlanta area. Just before the pandemic, Go Church was— under JC's leadership— one of Outreach Magazine's Top 100 / fastest-growing churches.   A former client himself, JC is a coach on the team. And, he'll begin hosting the Courageous Pastors podcast. His believes Courage to Lead provides two things: #1 = Quality. It's been tested over-and-over, and has a developed framework. So, there's consistency. #2 = Content. The system includes information which pastors can use and apply in their unique context— immediately. These two factors create a consistent experience for others… … and it provides an on-ramp to help others apply the content and receive incredible results.   Feel alone?  You don't need to-- join the tribe.   ______________   Schedule a Strategy Session at www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy Learn more about Go Church at https://www.mygochurch.com/ Follow JC on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/jcworley/ Register for The Gathering videos at www.CourageousPastors.com/gathering

Michael Turner is the founding and lead pastor of Turning Point Church in McDonough, GA— south of Atlanta. The church turned 19 in March 2022. Recently, Michael gifted everyone on his staff with a Fitbit— as part of a 30-day fitness challenge.  They decided to evaluate three areas: Steps per day Weekly weight loss Sleep hours per night This quick accountability— especially the “sleep part”— highlighted what was truly happening with everyone's health. And, as Michael reminds us, the challenge connects us to the idea that we're about TOTAL HEALTH and wellbeing, not just spiritual health. Furthermore, this step was important because it helped him lead his team towards PERSONAL development as well as the PROFESSIONAL development we usually focus upon.   Lately, Michael actually HAS been working on some of the PROFESSIONAL things, though… For instance, his church has focused on reclaiming the “in person” gatherings. Sure, there are a lot of empty chairs. (The truth is that, post-Covid, most churches have MANY empty chairs.) “But preaching to SOME empty chairs,” Michael says, “is much better than preaching to ONLY empty chairs and a camera.”   As they reclaim the gatherings, they're adjusting their metrics as well. “Attendance isn't the only indicator,” he says. “There's so much more… like engagement. And connection.” They're also evaluating things like finances and relationships and other items we may not have measured in the past.   Michael embraces the perspective-shift. His church has experienced seasons of fast-growth. And, when they did, he learned that EVERYTHING— including unhealth— replicates quickly. That is, unhealthy culture multiplies. Hidden assumptions, underneath-the-surface hurts, and other doubts replicate quickly, as well… “You can't outgrow unhealth,” he says. “At some point you must deal with the issues.” He's learned to celebrate those moments of fast growth, but to pay attention to the things that mater even more— like the pulse of his staff, as well as their personal lives. “We've got to care about them,” he says, “more than we care about growth.”   During the pandemic, he learned to focus even more on caring for people— not just his team but others in his church, too. “We began reaching out and actually CALLING people on the telephone,” he says. Then— “We also sent hand-written birthday cards. And DoorDash gifts…” The connections multiplied as they discovered new ways to connect and reconnect. “We even dropped by people's homes and visited them,” he offers. “Everyone was always so excited to see us.” He refers to all of this as “Care Equity,” and suggest it's one of the most important metrics you have.   ++++++++ Shawn's book, Building a Killer Team Without Killing Yourself or Your Team: www.KillerTeamCoaching.com  Personal Gears of Growth  = take the assessment here: https://www.courageouspastors.com/offers/PzhK2GiJ/checkout  Access the free Killer Teams Crash Course at www.CourageousPastors.com/cc  Register for a free Strategy Session at www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy  Learn more about Michael's church at https://turningpointchurch.tv

When you meet Brandon Bilboa two things strike you: He's a bit country, and He's a brilliant leader   Back in 2014 Brandon was a financial advisor, managing a $30MM portfolio. Then he felt called to plant Cross Church in Houma— 20 miles south of New Orleans. For the first 18 months, he pulled double-duty, pastoring during the nights and weekends while working full-time during the normal 9-5 workweek. In its first 6 years, the church grew to 1,200 in attendance.   Recently, Brandon's area was hit by Hurricane Ida— a high-level hurricane that produced flooding as far away as New York City. The wind was so strong in “blew out” the wind gauges. As Brandon says, “It was catastrophic. Everyone was touched by the trauma.”   The day after the storm, Brandon saw his church in action. Turns out, they could move faster than the government because they weren't hamstrung by bureaucracies and processes. And, very quickly, churches began working TOGETHER to help people in need.   Brandon makes an observation, “Pastors in the US pull together when there's a disaster. In other nations where I've been on mission trips, they pull together all the time. That's just how they do it.” He encourages us to make those connections NOW— knowing that, at some point, troubles are coming. Develop the relationships, nurture them… and enjoy them. Eventually, we will need them in other ways.   The recent storms provided a platform for the church to reach everyone, everywhere. Literally. “Everyone had some degree of damage,” he says, “and so everyone was reachable in some way.” One day, in a distribution line, 79 people gave their lives to Jesus. Even though there was no sermon. Even though there was no altar call. On another day, they asked people who came for help if they wanted prayer. Not a single person turned them down. An elderly woman had multiple trees down in her yard. She'd just survived Covid and was now devastated by the disaster. Whereas tree companies price-gouged, volunteers from the church arrived at her home and helped her free of charge. She began weeping. It was the tangible love of Christ in action. “Problems become our opportunity, our chance, to love people,” Brandon reminds us. “That is, if we can keep our poise when those things happen. We still preach the same message we were preaching 2 years ago. But, in some way, it's a bit different. It's less about “come and see” and more about “we're coming to you.”   ++++++++++++++   The Killer Teams Crash Course = www.CourageousPastors.com/cc   Schedule a free Strategy Session:   Brandon's Church, Cross Church = https://crosschurchhouma.com and https://www.facebook.com/crosschurchhouma   Brandon is a coach with CourageousPastors.com = https://www.courageouspastors.com/brandon

Adam Weber shares words of wisdom with us in this episode of The Courageous Pastors Podcast.  “Control what you can control,” he says, “and trust God with the rest.” We often do the exact opposite. We fret about the things outside our reach, but don't handle the things we can truly manage.    Adam has been using words, like these, to encourage pastors as he speaks with them. More than any other time, he reminds them to take care of themselves, and to acknowledge their limits.  One leader recently told him, “In 18 years of ministry, I've never wanted to quit… until now.”   “Focus on where you ARE, not where you were,” he says.  Again, you can control things in the past. You can only live in the present.    +++  Read more + find the links to the show notes at www.CourageousPastors.com/blog/014

Pastor Q always knew— since he was first called— he would plant a church in his hometown. The church has just completed its sixth year. In his own words, “It's been both better than I thought AND harder than I thought…” ++ Read more at www.CourageousPastors.com/blog/017 

Jeff Leake has been pastoring a long time. He was the pastoral assistant 30 years ago. Two years in, the lead pastor moved to CA to work at another church… Jeff stepped into the interim role, then became the lead pastor. Today, he leads the same church— now a multi-site congregation, spanning 6 physical locations, in the PIttsburgh area.  During this season he enjoys looking back and serving young leaders, pastors who stand in the position he found himself three decades ago. More so, he especially likes serving young leaders who want to plant a church.   In this episode Jeff mentions “the good ol' days.” It's easy to look back and live nostalgically. But that's not what he refers to at all.  He doesn't suggest we should just look back in order to complain about the present, either.  Rather, looking back is a way to remind us of God's goodness, His faithfulness…   Recently, Jeff rode through a nearby area with the leader of one of their first church plants outside the Pittsburgh area.  “We drove through the streets,” he said, “and I remembered our drive years before— when the church didn't exist, when it was just an idea, a dream…” He adds, “As I sat on the front row of that church, celebrating that first decade, I was moved to tears. None of this was here just years before.” (We can also learn lesson when we glance in the rear view mirror. People say that experience is a great teacher, but mere experience isn't. EVALUATED experience, on the other hand, truly is.) “Looking back,” Jeff says, “offers the opportunity to celebrate the faithfulness you can easily forget.”   Many pastors faced a “crisis of faith” coming through the pandemic. (Some are still feeling it, in fact.)   Jeff refers this to “pruning in the pandemic.” And, he reminds us that “God's pruning is always for our good AND for future fruit” (see John 15:1f.). “Even when it comes in odd ways,” he adds. “Even then we can look back and see his past faithfulness…” What does this pruning include?  Jeff refers to something MANY of the guest on the podcast have referenced: “We've been measuring the wrong things.” Or— “We've measured the right things in the wrong ways…”   Jeff endeavors to transform his church into a “Barnabas house,” that is, a place of encouragement— sacred space which launches people into their calling.  Barnabas is the Apostle who sold a plot of land and gave the proceeds to the early church. He's the leader who stood by Paul, effectively endorsing him when everyone else was still nervous about his recent conversion. He's the sage who believed in Mark, also, even though he'd bailed on Paul and Barnabas amidst their first mission venture.  You know the outputs of these actions… The church had resources to feed the widows and expand its footprint. Paul led mission trips, planted churches, and penned the letters which became the Scriptures we often read. Mark wrote what many believe to be the first Gospel.  At each beginning of each of these stories stands that character Barnabas, the one who breathed life into people and pushed them— in a healthy way— towards their call.     ++++++++   Links:  Allison Park Church  Allison Park Leadership Network = AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork.com  Gears of Growth = www.CourageousPastors.com/ogg   Schedule a free Strategy Session = www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy 

Scott talks about “two wings” all leaders need in order to move their organization forward: Respect and Relationship. In the same way an airplane won't fly without two wings, you can't “fly” your church or ministry without these two… ✈️ If you have the respect wing but no relationship wing, you won't be able to lead people. They might respect you (for who you are, what you know, where you've been, etc.), but they won't follow you because you lack connection. This leads many leaders to develop a “buddy syndrome” with the people they're called to lead. When that happens, they forfeit respect.  Here's the problem that creates… ✈️ If you have the relationship wing but not the respect wing, they'll connect with you— but they won't follow. You need BOTH in order to move the organization— that is, the church or ministry— forward. 

Andy begs pastors to find a band of brothers. Sure, he enjoys “talking church” and even theology (to learn, even with leaders who see things differently), but— even better than those conversations is the talks where you can be yourself.  Where you can connect. Where you know you're not alone. Where you can cry and laugh at the same time. “Most pastors are uptight,” Andy says. “They don't feel safe. They carry the weight of so much…” Furthermore, “The only people who know pastors ARE pastors… “ In truth, you can't lead well if you can't laugh well. Find a place where you can laugh.

If you, as a pastor aren't healthy— and if your family isn't healthy, you can't lead a church well. And if the church isn't healthy, it can't impact the culture. So, everything the church does actually begins in the home— of the leaders. (This is why Paul cautions us that elders in the church must have their family in order before they're qualified to lead— see 1 Timothy 3:1-12, especially verse 4.) “Don't take your personal, home life for granted while you're out leading the church,” Rodney encourages.   Remember, too, you had your family BEFORE the ministry and you'll have them AFTER the ministry. Family will be the ones who come to see you in the cemetery. Don't ignore the one group who will be with you for the entire run…

Ken reminds us, “Anything that's worth ANYTHING is on the other side of hard.” You'll set your expectation in the wrong place if you don't expect a challenge… But, when we DO expect challenges, we're prepared. We've counted the cost, and we've gone “all in” with our eyes wide open (Luke 14:25–33).  

Nick leads Propel Church in North Carolina— a church that's been around for 6 years. That means that HALF of their life has been DURING COVID. Several years ago, Nick found himself stuck in a drug addiction— one so bad, in fact, that he got expelled from his school. Jesus radically saved him. And, he turned and led a Bible study that same day. Years later, he planted a church in the SAME school where he was kicked-out… 800 salvations (and 376 baptisms) later, things have never looked better.   But it wasn't always that way. There were seasons of struggle. (One of the biggest values of coaching is that it empowers you to skip over another person's paint.) One of the main things Nick teaches other pastors, one of the pain-points he wants them to skip so they can live better? Rest. It's easy to skip over it. In fact, it's the ONLY of the 10 Commandments that most of us are OK ignoring. Think about it. No one ignores the forbiddance against adultery or idolatry. But, the Sabbath… is different. (And, since we're doing “eternal” work, it's easy to spiritualize our lack of rest.)   +++++++++++   Links for this show Teams Crash Course = www.CourageousPastors.com/cc  The Gathering =   www.CourageousPastors.com/gathering 

You see, we can't necessarily tell what God's will for us is a year from now.  But, we can tell what it is for today… and this week. We often get side-swiped, stale-mated, and stalled-out because we don't know where we'll be 5 or 10 years from now.  But we do know where we are today. Today is the perfect today to empty hell and fill heaven. Today is the perfect day to love your staff— and lead them closer to their potential. Today is the perfect day to shepherd someone through a hard time. Today is the perfect day to honor your wife, to embrace your kids, and to go “all in.” That is, today is the perfect day to make this burst of mist— the vapor— the best it can be.     ++++++++ Links for this talk—  Schedule a strategy session = www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy  Download 3 systems folders every organization needs = https://www.courageouspastors.com/offers/7fgKZzuF/checkout  Learn about the Gears of Growth framework = www.CourageousPastors.com/ogg 

“For his first 15 years,” Adam says, “I got to work as an assistant coach to several GREAT lead pastors.” In his mind, his stint as a youth pastor, an executive pastor, a small groups pastor, and more… those roles— with leaders helping him— empowered him to be who he is today. In fact, Adam is a former staff member of Shawn Lovejoy! In this talk, Adam discusses what it means to be the "second" in command, learn from a leader, and then move forward to leadership... 

Jordan Ducote has been a pastor of a megachurch for four years. He's 37, but looks like he's… well… about 20. He's uniquely a successor… of his father. There are blessings and burdens— alike— of following a legacy leader.   A few things Jordan mentions—  #1 = You don't want to be the smartest guy in the room.  #2 = You still must the confident in who you are.  #3 = The mix of grace and truth.  #4 = Have a coach AND a counselor.  #5 = Be transparent and vulnerable to a fault… with the right people. #6 = Use ministry to build people— don't use people to build ministry. 

Jesse Bradley is a former soccer player turned pastor… During his college days at Dartmouth, he took a  introductory to world religions class, reading all the originally religious texts as part of the course requirements. “The professor tried to undermine the Bible,” he recalls, “but Scripture is powerful.” Jesse didn't enroll in the class to seek Christianity, but the Christ sought him through that class. A believer in the course offered him a steady stream of solid answer for each of this questions. Throughout the year, he continued reading. And asking. And growing. In the end, he was a Christian.   If Covid taught us anything, it showed us that external success always comes up empty— especially when the success is removed. In fact, we might not even realize the issue until the external props are gone… Jesse reminds us that this season gives us a chance to go back and re-write the script of our lives, to refocus on the things that matter, to go back to the reasons we got into ministry in the first place.   Jesse recently found himself on Good Morning America (GMA, link below), sharing his personal story of a near-death experience, as well as how faith reignited his passion for life after he lost his soccer career. The road to GMA was through a series of secure podcasts, forums in which he shared his struggles— and subsequent joy— to secular audiences. “God always opens doors,” he says, “particularly when we go to where the people He wants to reach are.”   He's also learned the importance of working as a “city of THE church” rather than working as separate churches. As such, he partners with “Saturate the Sound,” a cohort of ministries who have aligned to reach the area he lives in Washington. They've rejected competition and isolation and chosen partnership. The result is a city-wide vision that's featured him exchanging pulpits with a Korean pastor (translator included!) and other opportunities to achieve more together.   It's easy to fall in love with “running the ministry” and counting the “results” of the work than falling in love with the Christ over the ministry and the people in the ministry. Again, Covid offers us a chance to reset, to refocus, to start-over… Reject the mere “form” of ministry and catch the “fire,” Jesus reminds us… And, as Shawn adds, “Jesus wasn't teaching a different text than the Pharisees. He taught the same text, but He put LIFE in it…” That's a good word…   +++++++++ Links for this show Grace Community Church = https://www.graceinauburn.com/ Jesse's website = JesseBradley.org Social Media links = https://twitter.com/jessejbradley https://www.instagram.com/jessejbradley/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesse-bradley-4952488a/ Jesse shares his story on GMA, for Faith Friday = https//youtu.be/8OkDTx2tbqw Free Teams Crash Course = www.TeamsCrashCourse.com

Leadership legend Sam Chand still remembers when Shawn told him, “When I hand off this church I want to do what you're doing.” In fact, Sam remembers the restaurant where the exchange happened… And that's one of the things that makes leaders like Sam Chand great— they see big vision but they drill it down by paying attention to the one person sitting in front of them. In this episode Sam talks about pastors. Right now, shepherds are tired, he says. “They're frazzled. Fatigued.” Furthermore, this has nothing to do with their love for Jesus, but the season they've just endured. (Sometimes, we need to realize that— the environment we're in actually affects us in ways disproportional to the time involved.) Pastors had to make fast decisions throughout the pandemic, and— as Sam says, “Regardless of the decision you made, you'll be wrong with 50% of the people.” The “no-win” scenario many pastors faced was much like quicksand… “The more you struggle to get out, the more you get sucked in…” This leads us to four observations— #1 = Pastors (and their teams) face disengagement and disillusionment: * 70% of their staff members disengaged during the past 18 months (and are not hiding it), according to Gallup. * 30% are still deciding what to do next In other words, EVERYONE seems to be in a state of limbo. #2 = Staff conflict has increased. A lot of this has to do with the changes people have endured, and a lot has to do with the fatigue + frazzle we mentioned earlier. In a real sense, there's no way to have endured the past 18 months and NOT have changed. And that always leads to relational tensions which must be addressed. #3 = “Help Wanted.” You see the signs everywhere— in shopping malls, at restaurants, at coffee shops, at movie theaters… Even in volunteer (and staff) positions in churches, we see the signs. Many people returned to church, but they didn't return to their previous ministry posts. Ushers. Greeters. Kids' workers. Parking lot attendants… The needs have actually increased— not decreased. We're doing far more with much less. #4 = The professional to personal pivot… Sam notes that many leaders who used look only at organizational metrics (i.e., “the numbers” of nickels and noses) are now asking questions about themselves— about their health, their marriage, and the things they may have previously neglected. “Leaders can become so driven that they overlook these important personal issues,” he says. Notably, this is a POSITIVE pivot— leaders must become more self-aware. This includes asking tough questions— like “What brings us LIFE?” Is it the ministry? Or external feedback? Are we doing, as Jeremiah warned, drinking soul-water from empty cisterns, from things that can't satisfy (Jeremiah 2:13)? The reality is that the externals— the “things” we're often tempted to feed to our soul for meaning— won't be there on our deathbeds. No one, in their final days, wishes they spent more time on stage, more time on a plane, or more time in a hotel… It's important to remember, Sam says, “If you die on a Saturday, they will hold churches on the next day…” Shawn adds, “Prioritize people who will come see you in the cemetery.” In reality, most pastors don't. They tend to push those people out to focus on the ones who won't….   During this season, Sam focuses on two things— #1 = Creating content (like the new magazine and podcast he just released— links below) #2 = Influencing influencers (through venues like speaking on this podcast and connecting with leaders like you).   In closing, he reminds us of four truths— #1 = You are not alone. You might feel that way, but you're one of many (1 Kings 19:18). #2 = There is nothing wrong with you. You've just endured (and are on the tail end) of a strange season, one in which many people feel exactly like you do. #3 = God knows the times and seasons (Acts 17:26). He entrusted you with this epoch (Esther 4:14). He did so, because He has great confidence in you… #4 = You're probably thinking in new ways (i.e., the professional to personal pivot), and even pondering things about yourself. Don't run from those ideas just because you've endured a difficult time period. Trust the Holy Spirit and competent counsel to lead you.       ++++++++++++ Links for the show Sam Chand's website: https://www.samchand.com/  Avail Magazine = https://www.theartofleadership.com  Avail Podcast = https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/avail-podcast/id1521323044  https://twitter.com/samchand  https://www.instagram.com/samchandleadership    Courage to Lead resources: Help with processes = www.GearsOfGrowth.com  Staff / Teams course = www.TeamsCrashCourse.com  Schedule a free strategy session = www.CourageToLead.com/strategy   

Chris Brown just did something somewhat unthinkable— he started a new church on the tail end of the pandemic, right as pastors and other leaders ask the question, “When is everyone coming back?” He leads The Well, in Columbia, Tennessee which— as of the recording of this episode— was in it's 5th week. Chris was involved in vocational ministry for several years in various capacities (never as a lead pastor), then went to work for Ramsey Solutions for four years. Something continued stirring in him, though, to make the transition back to full time church work. “I had a thirst for community and shepherding,” he said, “not for teaching.” He'd taught before. It was the people— the connection— that pulled him back. Not the platform.   Here's the difference in doing it now, in his 40s, rather than launching a church in his 20s (as many church planters do): “I'm really at a place where I don't base my identify and self-worth on the metrics,” he says. “I mean, we all say that— because it's the right tings to say, but I feel like I'm honestly there.” He doesn't evaluate the church attendance on a week-to-week basis. Nor does he check the offering each week. He looks at 10-week trends, evaluating the trajectory of where they're heading— not just latching down on where they are at a snapshot in time. Here are a few points to listen for— #1 = When someone drops the ball, give grace. Automatically assume they weren't equipped correctly (which is, in fact, your job). Or, presume they had something happening in their personal life. The reality is that in any leadership situation you— the leader— are the lid. And that's both good news and bad news. * Bad = it's on you * Good = you can adjust it! #2 = Develop your donors, particularly if you're starting a new church. Raising money on the front end empowers you to focus on ministry instead of chasing money. #3 = Reward what you want repeated. And do so publicly. #4 = Remember that “the overcoming of Covid and the season we're in” is small compared God's victories throughout the Bible, as well as the issues faced by church leaders around the globe. #5 = Trust God with the results. If He's called you to do something, go “all in.” Control what you can control, but then leave everything to HIs providence. In fact, Chris asks the question, “What's the worst thing that will happen if you fail?” Then, he observes, “We've all failed before— and we're still here.” Instead of living from the perspective “What would have happened if I had only _______________,” live from the vantage point of, “I've given it all I have to give.” Do so in a healthy way, of course. WIth loads of prayer. With a team of people you trust.   ++++++++++++++++ Links for this show = The Well Church = https://thewellcolumbia.org/  The Well on Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/thewellcolumbia/  Chris on LinkedIn = https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbrownonair/  Chris on Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/chrisbrownonair/ 

Bil Cornelius is one of the church leaders— a church planter— who paved the way for others. As Shawn points out in this episode of The Courageous Pastors Podcast, Bil— * Used direct mail and actually marketed the church (against the wit of some naysayers) * Hosted spontaneous baptisms Because of this, amidst his innovative approach, he's not a stranger to criticism. How do you deal with critics? Bil says, “The devil can't steal your gifts, so he wants to take your confidence.” Think about that one. And how hesitating in your calling can keep you from pushing forward into the role God has— in His grace— fore-ordained for you (Ephesians 2:8-10). If the devil can rip away your confidence, he can stalemate you in your calling… This leads us to a posture of prayer— of extended times with the Father. Bil prays for an hour a day. At least. And sometimes he does it while he's walking, so he can talk to God out loud and not get distracted. He admits, “I don't pray long hours because I'm so spiritual, I pray long hours because I'm not…” And— “It's not about the quantity time of prayer, it's about finding the quality WITHIN that quantity…” That is, he explains that God often shows up in a special way, in some subset of those minutes, some unique time that makes the entire time extremely valuable. Bil talks, too, about the importance of learning from mentors: “Information is cheap,” he says. “Especially today. But what's not cheap is relationship and connection.” He counsels leaders to learn from others, but to still “be you,” that is, not to lose the confidence if your own calling. Don't be a copycat; resist the temptation to be a clone. Replicate the principles you learn amidst those relationships but execute your unique call— because you can't duplicate someone else's anointing (nor can they copy yours). One of the biggest lessons of this post-pandemic season? We are learning NOT to worship at the feet of numbers. That's always been a tendency for church leaders. “Preach in season and out of season,” Paul tells us (2 Timothy 4:2). “This is,” Bil says, “an out of season season.” And, it's a time in which we need to realize that the “numbers” we have not ARE the actual numbers. In a sense, we're not at 50% or 70% or whatever-% of our capacity… we're at a new 100%. And that's OK. You've grown “the numbers” before, so you can do it again… Sure, the numbers are important. They represent real people. But, we need to focus on the things that really matter— * Your marriage * Your children * Your health (physical, mental, emotional, spiritual) If you have these, you're “winning” in life AND in ministry…   ++++++++ Links for today's talk = Church Unlimited = https://churchunlimited.com/  Bil on TikTok = The Praying Pastor Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/BilCornelius/  Twitter = https://twitter.com/bilcornelius  Schedule a free strategy session at www.CourageToLead.com/strategy    

Pastor Chris Johnson leads Divine Unity Community Church— a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-generational church in Harrisonburg, Virginia. As our nation experienced many of the racial and political upheavals, the people he leads leaned in hard to see what it means to unify as Ephesians 2 outlines rather than dividing on important— but lesser-important than the Kingdom— issues. During the conversation, Shawn asks Chris his opinion: “What's the biggest issue you see pastors facing now?” His answer: “Grief.” Chris says that many pastors are grieving the transitions they've seen in ministry, the new weight they carry, and the loss of previous expectations… Face it. Leading a church and a ministry has transformed over the past few years— and it's done so quickly. Chris talks about how he deals— and has dealt with emotional overwhelm.   His main takeaway: there are things you can only acquire in the valley, perspective— and strength— you can't gain from the mountaintop. You learn to lean into the Father. You dive deeper into the Scripture. And relationships change. Relationships forged in success look one way (and can be great). Relationships forged in struggle seem even stronger.   He also discusses the need to make disciples, not just host church services. This doesn't mean he's against church services— Chris talks about launching a new church right now. But the focus has always been— and should always be— people. Our “product,” in other words, is transformed lives.   Chris reminds us, finally, to “give up” ownership of a few things— that is, to deconstruct your leadership call and allow the Father to rebuild it. Things to give to give up ownership on include— Not your OWN righteousness. Not your OWN strength. Not your OWN understanding.

Mike Burnette replanted LifePoint Church when it was 5 years old, had 52 members, and was $2.5MM in debt. The church has grown steadily since then. But growth isn't always what it's cracked-up to be— and it's not something we should pursue for the simple sake of growth.  In this talk, Shawn and Mike discuss the importance of the Kingdom of God— and staying focused on the Kingdom rather than on ourselves, and what we can produce.   Mike talks candidly about being THE fastest growing church in America— according to Outreach Magazine's 2018 poll. The following year,  he fell into the 70s. Then, a year later, he didn't even make the list. He describes what Top 100 did to him, in terms of staking value in the wrong place… External, outside honors are certainly humbling. But they can also shake us when we place the wrong merit on them.  The year after he made the list, he actually wanted to quit ministry. It was tough, and marked by marital strife and other tensions. Mike no longer reviews the attendance records at his church— not even on Easter. He says this stance frees him to pay attention to the people physically before him, in his presence (rather than worrying about who's not there).  And it reminds him of what really matters…   Recently, Mike released the book Parable Church, a work he published in March 2021. He writes about the culture Jesus wanted to create— namely, one that reminds us that it's God's job to grow our ministry-field. It's our job, on the other hand, to grow in faithfulness and fervency. The book makes an observation and then asks a question each pastor needs to assess—  Mike observes, “Christ never actually told us how to do church." He then asks, So why is much of our time and energy as leaders and shepherds consumed with chasing after tips, tricks, and secrets to "grow" churches, hoping that they somehow also reach and maintain spiritual health? The question makes sense. If the metrics mattered as much as we make of them, certainly Jesus would have outlined a strategy of what to count, how to count it…   In the end, we are responsible for ourselves— for our character, for stewarding our calling, and for pursuing the Christ… That is, we need to grow the right things. Our Master rewards faithfulness, not fruitfulness. Sure, He designed us such that we would produce fruit, but the goal… is faithfulness. The fruit? It grows as on overflow of what's happening inside of us and the people we serve.

Clayton King preaches most weekends at NewSpring Church in South Carolina, he leads Clayton King Ministries, and he's written 17 books (the latest one being released during the pandemic). But than that, he's a normal guy who loves Jesus. He likes to go outdoors, and he rides a motorcycle with a random playlist to clear his mind.   In this talk he begins by discussing the Good-Fast-Cheap Pyramid. “You can choose 2 out of the 3,” he says, “but not all three.” The problem is that we've got to make sure we choose the right 2— and that involves recognizing the season we're in… Think about it… If you want fast and cheap, the work will be shoddy. A contractor you hire with this approach will give you a “rush job,” then move to the next project. The work won't be good, but it will be done. If you want cheap and good, it's not going to be fast. It will take some time. A contractor you hire here will squeeze you in when they can, most likely doing bits and pieces of your job around other projects that are making them the big bucks. The work will be cheap, good… and slooowwwww. If you want good and fast, it won't be cheap. The contractor will postpone every other item on their calendar and stay up all night making sure your job gets done. They'll focus like a laser, making sure you get what you want— and that you're happy. But you'll pay handsomely for it. The project will be good, fast… and expensive.   Here's the tension-- We want to grow fast, but anything that's unhealthy ALSO replicates when you move fast. So, we must keep the Good-Fast-Cheap pyramid in mind. When things move fast, we often miss some things which seem insignificant in the moment…. * What time you wake up * Your exercise routine * How you order the first moments of you day * Making time for the people who matter the most (your family) * The time you go to bed It's easy to allow the important things to slip and slide during a rapid season of growth. However, these are the things which sustain us, and so they must be prioritized— even if that means intentionally slowing down. Look back at the contractor example above— they put everything else off in the third option (good and fast) in order to finish you job. But they did so at the expense of other projects, as we often do in ministry. Therein lies the problem.   Clayton reminds us not to simply measure “fast fruit” but “faithful” and “long-lasting” fruit. In order to sustain ministry, you've got to build structures and systems… as well as care for your own soul. We see Jesus do this, by the way. He routinely slipped away from the masses (and did the “slow down, slow grow”), as well as told those he healed not to tell people who He was. Take the Sabbath. Pause and enjoy your family. Stop and enjoy the life you've been given…   ++++++++++++ Links for this show— Clayton's website: https://www.claytonking.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clayton_king/ Clayton's newest book, Reborn: https://amzn.to/3mHI6nv Schedule a strategy session with Courage to Lead: www.CourageToLead.com/strategy