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Join Rachel True and Mat Auryn on this episode of THE CIRCLE IS podCAST as they welcome the brilliant Michelle Welch for a spirited and thought-provoking conversation. Michelle, award-winning author of The Magic of Connection and Spirits Unveiled, shares her journey from a religious upbringing in Texas to becoming one of the most sought-after mediums and authors in the metaphysical community. The trio dives into the nuances of intuition, ethics in spiritual work, and the fascinating world of energetic connections. Michelle discusses her latest book, A Psychic's Handbook, offering a glimpse into her practical methods for communicating with spirits and her perspective on the ever-evolving field of mediumship. Rachel and Mat share their own experiences as empaths and practitioners, sparking a candid discussion about boundaries, the risks of over-identifying with trauma, and how to navigate the delicate balance between spiritual openness and self-preservation. They touch on Michelle's unique blend of intuitive gifts and legal expertise, her work on high-profile cases, and the lessons she's learned along the way. This episode is packed with humor, honesty, and actionable insights for anyone exploring their intuitive abilities, working with energy, or seeking to live with greater authenticity.Michelle's Links:Michelle's Website: https://michellewelch.com/Michelle's Books: https://www.llewellyn.com/author.php?author_id=6617Soultopia Holistic Boutique: https://mysoultopia.com/SoulWhat Podcast: https://michellewelch.com/podcastNorthWest Tarot Symposium: https://nwtarotsymposium.com/The Readers Studio: https://thereadersstudio.com/The International Divination Event: https://theinternationaldivinationevent.com/Our Links:Rachel True Website: https://truehearttarot.comMat Auryn Website: https://auryn.netModern Witch Podcast Network: https://modernwitch.comMat's Omega Retreats: https://www.eomega.org/people/mat-aurynTrue Heart Intuitive Tarot, Guidebook And Deck: https://a.co/d/9ZNyRu1The Psychic Art of Tarot: Opening Your Inner Eye for More Insightful Readings: https://a.co/d/dUBT1bZPsychic Witch: A Metaphysical Guide to Meditation, Magick & Manifestation: https://a.co/d/bHelDwUMastering Magick: A Course in Spellcasting for the Psychic Witch: https://amzn.to/3VesGalPisces Witch: Unlock the Magic of Your Sun Sign: https://a.co/d/cGqcG61

When I was a kid and had a rock collection, I just thought of them as pretty objects to look at. I never realized that rocks – crystals in particular – had amazing healing properties.     It gets tricky, though, when it comes to identifying which crystals are best for certain conditions. What crystal is best for stress? Are there crystals that help promote a good night's sleep? Can a crystal get rid of a nasty muscle ache?    Those are some of the areas discussed with noted crystal expert and psychic intuitive Michelle Welch. Michelle has studied the properties of crystals for years and helps educate us in how to use them, including:·      how she works with them in her daily life·      the science behind the effectiveness of crystals, proving why they work·      how to personalize your crystals experience·      the right way to wear crystals·      using the right crystals for best results·      does price make a difference in a crystal's effectiveness?·      is it necessary to clean crystals?Crystals can be a fun way to change your mood, boost your energy level or simply make you feel better. Learn how in this down to earth episode of Dream Power Radio.     Michelle Welch is highly accomplished in many fields: An author, psychic intuitive, and is an active lawyer practicing criminal and civil law. Michelle is also the owner and operator of the SoulTopia LLC metaphysical stores, where she provides in- tuitive readings and healing sessions in addition to teaching classes on crystals, tarot, energy work, and intuition. She has also presented at Readers Studio, the Northwest Tarot Symposium, and the International New Age Trade Show.     Michelle is also a Jury selection consultant, Grief Doula, the host of the Sou/What podcast and the Michelle SoulTopia YouTube channel and a mother of five children.      Michelle just released her new book, "Spirits Unveiled: A Fresh Perspective on Angels, Guides, Ghosts and More" - an inspired understanding of Spirits Beings.Website: https://michellewelch.com/ Want more ways to find joy in your life? Check out my website thedreamcoach.net for information about my courses, blogs, books and ways to create a life you love.

For release in April 2023, The Runic Tarot Deck brings Norse gods and mythology to the world of tarot. Co-author Jaymi Elford joins me to discuss this latest offering.  Each card features the wisdom of the runes, the poetry of the Skalds, and the valor of the Einherjars, a perfect divinatory combination to connect you with Valhalla (the realm of the gods). This fierce and beautiful deck will boost your intuitive abilities and provide ancient Norse insights to all your burning questions. Jaymi Elford is an author, tarot reader, fire spinner, and cat friend. She has over thirty years of experience with tarot and other divination tools, and she works closely with Lo Scarabeo to produce tarot decks. Jaymi has taught at PantheaCon, Northwest Tarot Symposium (NWTS), Witch City Tarot Gathering, and the Readers Studio in New York. She co-hosts the podcast Cardslingers Coast-to-Coast and edits The Cartomancer Magazine. Jaymi lives in Portland, Oregon, and wants you to visit her at www.innercompasstarot.com.  http://www.tarotinspiredlife.com

What is an Empath? Overwhelmed by feelings that do not seem to be your own? Over powered by other people's energies?  Does this mean you are an Empath? If so, what can we do about it and how does it affect you?Tonight, learn how empathic abilities can help you heal your inner wounds while staying connected to your community.Michelle Welch is the owner and operator of the SoulTopia LLC metaphysical stores, where she provides intuitive readings and healing sessions in addition to teaching classes on crystals, tarot, energy work, and intuition. She has also presented at Readers Studio, the Northwest Tarot Symposium, and the International New Age Trade Show. Michelle is also an attorney and the host of the SoulWhat podcast and the Michelle SoulTopia YouTube channel.Follow Michelle Welch here: https://mysoultopia.com/The Paranormal 60 with Dave Schrader - The Way of the EmpathSUPPORT THE SPONSORS THAT SUPPORT THIS SHOWYou deserve the best so treat yourself to the best food out there www.HelloFresh.com/50P60 and use Discount Code: 50P60 at check out to enjoy 50% off your first order & free shipping.Give online therapy a try at http://www.betterhelp.com/P60 and get on your way to being your best self!Learn a new language www.Babbel.com/P60 for 55% off your subscriptionSHOW YOUR STATUS AS A LOYAL DARKLING!Grab Your Paranormal 60 Gear At: https://www.darknessradio.com/storeTRAVEL WITH DAVE: https://www.darknessradio.com/darknessevents/SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHANNEL HERE: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheParanormal60withDaveSchrader--------------------------------------------------------------------------DAVE'S LINKS:TWITTER: https://twitter.com/TheDaveSchraderFACEBOOK: www.Facebook.com/DarknessRadioDaveDAVE SCHRADER - INSTAGRAM: https://instagram.com/OfficialDaveSchraderPARANORMAL 60 - INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/officialparanormal60/WEBSITE: http://www.Paranormal60.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

https://youtu.be/ftFpkk9ENpQ Jaymi Elford is the author of Tarot Inspired Life: Use the Cards to Enhance Your Life. Jaymi lives a tarot-inspired life. She uses the cards as a tool to explore the world we live in and create meaning. She is an accomplished reader, and a respected member of the international Tarot community. She has taught at Readers Studio, the Bay Area Tarot Symposium, and the North West Tarot Symposium. Lo Scarabeo published her first deck, Triple Goddess Tarot, in 2017. She is also the co-host of Cardslingers Coast to Coast. More information about the guest can be found at https://www.innercompasstarot.com/

Jaymi Elford is a tarot author, reader, and podcaster. She has truly created her own life inspired by tarot. She has written an award-nominated book about how you can do the same. You might be surprised to learn that Jaymi has written a number of the little white books that accompany your tarot decks. She is also the author of the new Heaven and Earth Tarot. Jaymi shares her wisdom and philosophies with us in this exciting episode of StaarCast. -- Jaymi Elford – Tarot Reader, Deck Creator, Author and Podcaster Jaymi Elford discovered her first deck at 13 and has been reading for others since then. You can find her slinging cards at parties, events, or in one- on-one sessions with clients. Tarot is Jaymi's personal inner compass. She reads the cards for herself to seek guidance and gain insight. When it comes to living a tarot inspired life, Jaymi has a simple philosophy: clear the clutter, locate your anchor, and allow magic into all aspects of your world. Not only is Jaymi an accomplished reader, she's a respected member of the international Tarot community. She has taught at Readers Studio, BATS, and the NorthWest Tarot Symposium (NWTS). Jaymi also produces various other tarot media — writing and editing books on Tarot, crafting innovative essays for magazines, and she has an addiction to producing little white books for other decks. Lo Scarabeo published her first deck, Triple Goddess Tarot in 2017. Llewellyn Worldwide released her first book, Tarot Inspired Life, in 2019. She is the co-host of two podcasts Tarot Visions, with Rose Red, and Cardslingers Coast to Coast with Melissa Cynova and Hilary Parry Haggerty. Follow Jaymi online: Website: https://www.innercompasstarot.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/innercompasstarot Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaymi_elford Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaymi_elford YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoC4QAIiyACHDJhF9EKDs2Q Register for StaarCon: tickets.staarcon.com

Michelle Welch is a lot of things. She is an attorney. She owns a spiritual shop in Dallas, Texas called SoulTopia. She is a tarot reader, energy healer and psychic medium. She is also the author of a brand-new book from Llewellyn which offers some revolutionary thinking about the way energy works, and the ways we can work with energy. In this episode of StaarCast, Michelle and Christiana sit down to talk about the healing and empowering perspectives that Michelle shares in her book. This gives us a taste of what we can expect from Michelle Welch at StaarCon. -- Michelle Welch – Author, Intuitive Reader, Healer Michelle Welch (Dallas, TX) is the author of The Magic of Connection published by Llewellyn Worldwide. She recently appeared on the Jenny McCarthy Show and The Morning After television show. She is also the owner and operator of the SoulTopia LLC, metaphysical stores, where she provides intuitive readings and healing sessions in addition to teaching classes on crystals, tarot, energy work, and intuition. She has also presented at Readers Studio, the Northwest Tarot Symposium, the World Divination Association, and the International New Age Trade Show. A former lawyer, Michelle is also the host of the SoulWhat podcast and the Michelle SoulTopia YouTube channel. She is also an ordained minister and holds many certificates in various divination and healing modalities. Follow Michelle online: Michelle's Website: https://michellewelch.com SoulTopia: https://soultopia.guru | https://mysoultopia.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soultopiallc Twitter: https://twitter.com/michell76757080?s=11 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soultopia YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6fnBTTD2lSGWoP8KCViCOA Register for StaarCon: tickets.staarcon.com

We are thrilled that Benebell Wen is one of our headliners for StaarCon 2021. In our conversation for this StaarCast episode, we discuss her books, her art, and her passion for all things mystical. Benebell will be presenting two workshops at StaarCon 2021. We discussed only one of them and left the other a surprise. The workshop we discussed is a topic you don't often hear about at a tarot conference. We are sure it will give you some food for thought. -- Benebell Wen is the author of Holistic Tarot: An Integrative Approach to Using Tarot for Personal Growth, which was shortlisted for the Eric Hoffer Award, and The Tao of Craft: Fu Talismans and Casting Sigils in the Eastern Esoteric Traditions, both published by North Atlantic Books (2015 and 2016 respectively). She is also the creator of the Spirit Keeper's Tarot, which won the Judges Choice Award for Best Tarot Deck from the 2019 International Tarot Foundation CARTA Awards and Best Author of a Tarot Deck. Wen has presented at the Bay Area Theosophical Society, San Francisco Bay Area Tarot Symposium, Stanford University, UC Berkeley, PantheaCon, Readers Studio, the UK Tarot Conference in London, and the Masters of the Tarot Conference at the Omega Institute. Reading tarot for others has always been her first passion. When not immersed in metaphysical studies, Wen is a practicing attorney licensed in California and New York. Follow Benebell online: Website: https://benebellwen.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/benebellwentarot Twitter: https://twitter.com/tarotanalysis Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bellwen Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxy7GWlYL8RSb2JwJrzh8PA Register for StaarCon: tickets.staarcon.com

Sasha and Andrew talk about finding balance. How working on your shadow is just as important as working on the rest of yourself. They explore tarot and other tools along with personal stories of encounters wit the shadow.    Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here.   Supporters get early access and at th e$5 level access ro a bonus recording for each episode - this one a 17 minute talk on how to work with your shadow.  If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Sasha here.  Andrew is here.    Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.    Transcription.  Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermits Lamp podcast. I am here today with Sasha Graham. I met Sasha at Readers Studio a number of years ago where they were talking about shadow work. And recently, this summer, they came out with a deck called the Dark Wood Tarot, which digs right into that shadow stuff. And for people who've spent time around me, really owning both sides of that stuff is important I think to every spiritual journey. So I wanted to kind of have Sasha on here to talk shadow stuff and talk dealing with those things, especially at a time when COVID and racial issues and justice issues or the shadow issues of our cultures are really being brought to the foreground as well. It feels like an important conversation and an important thing to keep paying attention to. But maybe everybody doesn't know who you are, Sasha. So why don't you give us a quick introduction? Sasha: Yeah. Well, first off, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So my name's Sasha Graham. I'm a tarot author and a deck creator and a teacher. I've written, I think, eight tarot books for Llewellyn and Lo Scarabeo. And I contribute to the Llewellyn's Magical Almanacs, which is Datebooks. And I've created two tarot decks, both of them kind of steeped in spooky darkness because I love that vibe: The Tarot of the Haunted House for Lo Scarabeo and The Dark Wood Tarot, which has just come out a couple months ago, with Llewellyn. Andrew: So tell me this, because you are a very positive-seeming, very upbeat, very energetic and outgoing kind of person. What's with all the darkness? What's with the appeal of that for you? What do you get from that? Sasha: I am a person who... The darkest parts of anything in my life that I've ever experienced, the most challenging things in my life that I've ever experienced has always paid itself back on the light side, if that makes sense. So I grew up in a very kind of... I think my childhood, to be honest with you, felt very terrifying. I lived in wild, rural places. I was on mountains and planes. We moved around. The world always felt very supernatural and very scary. And it was always kind of going in and embracing the things and figuring out all of the dark stuff helped me find the light that much better, if that makes any sense. And especially I think as a teenager, when there were certain things that I couldn't process that were happening in my life, it was easier for me to go to horror and Stephen King. I happened to come of age when vampires and Anne Rice became a thing and the goth movement first came out. So, to me, grinding yourself against the darkness, grinding yourself against the stuff that terrifies you makes you stronger and ultimately it makes you more whole. And then as I transitioned into my work as a taroist and as a writer and as like, I don't know, a spiritual creature or whatever you want to call it, I realized how profound and how the further you go into the... We're all here to evolve, right? As a taroist, as an artist, as a writer, you're here to move forward and to see further than you've seen the day before. The only way you can bring the light of consciousness to whatever it is that you do is by exploring the things you don't understand or you don't know. Now, oftentimes those things are scary. If you're doing between world work and you're encountering an energy that you're not familiar with, of course that's terrifying because you don't recognize it. But interestingly, that happening spiritually or in your imagination is the same thing that happens to us when we walk down the street and see something we don't recognize or a person that we don't recognize. Because something is not comfortable to us, we call that thing the other and we're afraid of it. And that's why the shadow work that you perform for yourself is applicable on every single level of our lives. And so it's not just about how you're relating inside to yourself, but also how you're relating to the external world, and how what I call the trick of the material world, which in the tarot deck would be pentacles, how you really get fooled by the way that something looks rather than paying attention to the energy of what it actually is underneath. And when you're looking at things energetically... Oh my God, I'm really running on here. But when you're looking at things energetically, it's a lot simpler, I think, than things look like on the surface. All right. I'm going to just stop talking now. Andrew: No. There are so many things to touch on in there. So the first one I want to ask you about though... I made a list here so we can make sure stuff doesn't get missed. The first thing that I want to say is... So I spent a lot of time in the wilderness. I grew up sort of North of Toronto in a town that I think it had about 8,000 people living there when I lived there. But I lived on the edge of town and there was nothing but farms and forests between us and the next town, maybe a 15 minute drive over or a very long, long walk or bike ride. And so I spent a lot of time in the woods and pretty deep in the woods and getting lost in the woods with friends and stuff like that or by myself. And I spent a lot of time cycling the rural roads. I would just hop on my bike and ride for hours and be like, huh? And again, pre GPS, pre whatever, like actually lost. Being like, huh, I think if I turn right here, I'm going to get back to my city, my town. But if not, then I'm going to hit this other town and then I'm going to have a really long bike ride home after that. I'm already really tired. Because for me, as I continue to grow and continue to live my life spiritually, my connection to the land, to wilderness, to sort of spirits from places, to plants and animals and all of those kinds of things that has its root in that time continues to flourish. Because I think that in nature, there's no avoiding the shadow. Nature doesn't avoid it at all. It's all kind of unified. Nature is what it is and that's it. And we sometimes try and glorify it and be like, "Oh, all these things are so perfect." And it's like, well, nature is astounding. Nature is magical and powerful. Nature is intense and scary. It's all there. So I'm curious what role some of your experiences of being in the wilderness or in nature and so on impacted on your journey in this. Was there a moment where you were out there and you were scared of stuff? Was there a moment where you had a spiritual encounter in the woods or wherever? Sasha: Yeah. And this is, again, one of those things where you asked me in the beginning, why do you love the darkness? One of the things that used to terrify me the most was I lived on the side of a mountain in Vermont. We had like a mile long driveway. I was in fourth grade. And I would have to walk from the school bus up the driveway and into the empty house and hang out for like two hours by myself before anyone got home. And so it was like I would leave the den of the school bus. And the second I stepped off that school bus, man, it got quiet. And the gift of being a young child and of being scared, because there's a difference between playing... Well, whether you're playing or whether you're kind of nervous and therefore kind of on alert, the gift of being very young and being in those situations is that you're not always necessarily sure what you're looking at. When you encounter things, I think that you encounter them maybe in their truer form than what people have. Because once you're told this is a doc, that is a red robin, you kind of place it in a box in a way. But when you're young and in nature... And I believe that being nervous and being scared, especially those walks up that driveway, because I was in kind of a heightened state of alert, I was certain I was going to get murdered or there was a troll under the bridge. He was going to devour me up. I really paid attention, like super-uber attention. And with that, yeah, I saw things and I experienced things on a much more profound level probably than I could even... I probably couldn't even express it in words. But again, it's something that I'm so grateful for because as I've grown older and moved deeper into the work that I do, I understand that now and I'm able to see things in that way or I know when I'm encountering something and what I would call between mortals experience, where I'm almost in two places at the same time and looking through the veneer of the material world into the energy that's underneath. So again, I think it's that full circle thing, when you have a childhood rooted in nature and go outside and play, you're immediately interfacing with all of this energy that in and of itself could be your teacher. You never have to pick up a tarot book or a witchcraft book or a Shelly book if you were just paying attention to and outside in the woods. So that's an example of why I'm grateful for something that was spooky that was my greatest teacher as well. Andrew: Yeah. I think there's something about fear that is really helpful sometimes, not always. You know what I mean? Sasha: Yeah. Andrew: I remember the first time I summoned Goetic demon to demand it to do something for me. It was one of the first evocations that I did. A friend of mine and I had spent a long time... We got this 10 by 10 foot canvas and painted our magic circle on it by hand. We did all sorts of stuff around setting that up. And I remember the feeling as I started that ceremony and the way in which it heightened all of my other senses and kind of opened me up. It wasn't that I hadn't been meditating and scrying and reading cards. I had been doing a lot of stuff. But something about the tension around that and sort of that taking it really seriously. And I think that whether it's a deliberate experience or whether it's a sort of situational experience, right? I remember being... We were at a friend's wedding somewhere north of the city and we were walking back, me and my co-parent and the two kids, one of whom was like an infant at the time. And we were walking back from where the post wedding dancing was happening around a fire with a bunch of drums and stuff like that, back to the cabin where we were sleeping. The road was pitch black and we didn't have a flashlight. And the only light that there was, was this little tiny gap above us where you could see a few stars through the trees. And I was just like, "Oh, this is fine. I know this." I mean, I don't know that place. But I know the forest. I know being here in the dark. I know whatever. And I was just like, "It's fine. Just put your hand on me and I'll just walk us back." And I just walked us back, following that faintest of trails. I mean, the road itself was big enough to drive a car out. So it wasn't like I was walking through the woods on a tiny goat track on a mountain with the kids. But it was dark. And that sense, for me, in that moment, of connection to all of that stuff around me made it really easy to be there. But I think that in the absence of that, that is a terrifying experience, right? Sasha: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I think that, again, it's kind of the trick in the way that we address what's happening, like fear. So many of the same things that happen to us physically when we're freaked out and scared are also the same thing that happens to us when we're intensely sexually aroused. Your face flushes, you get goosebumps on your skin, you're really paying attention to everything that's going on. Well, what happens in those moments when you're on such kind of high alert, you're broken open. In the sense of the erotic, you're opening yourself up to someone and if everything's in your favor, you're about to have an incredibly transcendent experience with someone. And I think the great thing about really good horror movies, for example, or a great horror novel is that also opens you up and shows you something new. It shows you what's possible. And it doesn't necessarily always feel good, which I always talk about the three of swords being the heart opening card. To look at an incredible natural landscape can be kind of as painful. Beauty can be as painful as grief, and all of it is breaking you open. It's taking you out of where you were yesterday and it's moving you further into a deeper experience of being a human being and therefore understanding the world in a more profound way, which is why I think we're all here and why we do this work. Andrew: I love the notion of the sublime from like 19th century landscape and then kind of further into modernism and other things. This idea that we can have these experiences of something that is so vast and overwhelming that it allows us to understand our place in the universe and our relationship to source the creator or, as they would have said, to God. Because it is that a complete existential understanding of our place in relationship to everything else. And that sense of both our smallness and our bigness in relationship to things. A friend of mine had this land that backed onto 50,000 hectares. I don't know what that is in America, but it's huge. It's unbelievably huge. And the land was logged like a hundred years ago and then has been untouched ever since. And other than a few hunter shacks and stuff, there's nothing there. And I used to go pike in there and find a high spot, because there's just sort of like rolling Canadian shield, rocky surfaces that on the top of them there's just nothing there because they're just fair walk. And I would find a nice one and I would camp there for a couple days by myself. And at night I would do ceremonies to the sky goddess. And you're there in this vast wilderness and I'm like three, four hours walk through the woods from anybody else probably. And you're on this high point and you're away from all the cities. So it's just this vast, expansive starriness. And that sense of being lost in relationship to it, being consumed by the bigness and then connected to it and then returned back to myself is such a profound and healing experience. Sasha: And also, when I'm out in the woods by myself, what is always surprising to me is the sense that I'm definitely not out there alone. And I'm not talking about like tree energy or field energy. I am talking about something much more beguiling. And I would not even dare to kind of try and even define it because again, I think it's something that... What happens to you when you are truly alone without other people in the wild I guess is like the hermit and taro. You have to be out there to experience it yourself because I think it's one of the closest, comfortable ways that you can start to understand how you interface with the world around you. And I think it's an exquisite and always surprising and amazing. I just think it's amazing. Now I want to go hiking, or maybe it's the weekend that has caught up. Andrew: Yeah. I just got back from a week camping, not particularly remotely, but a week camping with my kids. And they were like, "Can we go again?" And I'm like, "Yeah, we'll go again. We can do on October." And maybe we'll go somewhere just slightly further that's maybe going to be a little Wilder, especially because October we're not going to be swimming or not likely to be swimming. It's going to be cold up here and stuff. Sasha: For sure. Andrew: One of the things I think is very interesting about you as well is that you have this background in acting. And you have this piece that's attached to what people talk about as sort of, in my mind, glamor magic, from like what you do and how you go about it, stuff like that. And so I'm curious for you, how do you think about it, or if you ever think about this sort of idea of how you are in the world as sort of a deliberate expression of yourself and us sort of being attached to that wholeness or that magic or those kinds of ideas? Sasha: I love that you just said glamour magic. That makes me so happy. So your question is, I'm sorry, how do I... Andrew: How do you think about this yourself in relationship to how you are in the world, like your shadow and all this stuff? You're out there as a teacher and a taroist and all these things. But how do you think about how you present yourself, about your persona, about your way of being in the world, especially maybe in relationship to your public self, or if you do at all? I don't know. Sasha: Look, from as far back as I can remember, I think there's two things that kind of occupied my mind and in terms of what drove me to do the things that I did, and that was, one, in a sense having some sort of agency or power. And two, with that, also being authentic to who I was or am. And that's something that I'm constantly trying to figure out. And I think anybody who's extremely empathetic, I pick up a lot of whoever I'm around. So I'm constantly trying to navigate, okay, is that me or is that someone else? I try to be and I continue every day, I was just in bed this morning with my husband talking about this thing, being the most authentic version of who it is that you are with that whole idea of the things that are placed inside of you that you are drawn to. So in terms of what I put out there, it's who I am. I love that you say glamour magic. I think supernatural stuff is sexy. I think witchcraft is so sexy. I think it's powerful. That's what I loved when I was an actor and I made like a million B movies. I'm looking at them right now. They're all right there. But when I look back at the roles that I did, I wasn't the girl being like slashed in a wet t-shirt. I was the vampire. I was the gargoyle. I was the mafia hit woman. It was all about claiming my power because I think for so long I felt powerless. So what I do now, as a woman... It's funny. The teaching just kind of came along with writing books. I never set out to become a teacher at all. But then since I started publishing, people were like, "Oh, will you teach a class. Do you guys do that?" So I was like, okay, all right. I mean, I'd rather be a student. Any day of the week I would rather be a student because I'm still figuring this stuff out and it's always felt odd to kind of be like, well, here I am the authority. Let me tell you what I know about the invisible world. How do I know that for someone else? I only know my experience of it. And even with my books, I'm always like you know more about yourself than I do. Throw my book out the window and write down what the symbol of a crown or a rainbow means to you. So as far as what I put out there, I mean, I'm just trying to be me. I like glamour and pleasure and beauty and travel and excitement. And I always felt, since I was very young, that life was cinematic. And it's why I love living in New York city and I love being in the mountains because it's like being in a movie thing and I do love the movies. So I don't know. That's just me, I guess. I'm trying to be me. Andrew: Because it sounds like there was a time where you didn't feel empowered and now there's this time where you feel more empowered or you're sort of aware of it and making a lot of choices that bring you into that place. How did that shift happen? Sasha: Well, the second I moved to New York city, I got a great therapist. I found myself a good, good therapist. I always had the sense... How did that shift happen? Taro has always been my jam. First of all, when I first started as a reader, I was like, well, if I'm not following my own advice, then I'm kind of like a total fraud. So I always already felt like it was like, okay, it was going to keep me on point. And the shift into... I don't know when it happened. I mean, I think it's been a slow and steady ascension up the cliff into whoever is inside of me that's trying to come out or trying to show itself. I don't know. Andrew: Interesting. Yeah. It's funny how that stuff sort of sometimes is easier to see in retrospect, that the change is happening, than it is to sort of notice in the moment. And I think that... Maybe you see this with people, too. Sometimes come for readings and they want that change today. And I'm like, yeah, that would be so nice, wouldn't it? If I could just, and then you would feel empowered or this or that or whatever. But it's often those accumulation of little things, or not even little things, right? Like, well, I did therapy for a while. I did this. I did that. I read my cards every day. I kept asking questions. I kept writing. Sasha: And it's so true. And I'm so curious. When people have those big moments... My sister, for instance, she was a heroin addict. And I'm always like that day of clarity where you woke up and were like, "I'm done," how many tiny things had to... And if you look bad at any moment in your life when you make a big decision like, "Oh, I'm finally really done." And you might call that a major care moment. I'm really finished with this. It's always the tiniest things that led to the biggest kind of I think outward, inward changes. And in a sense makes it so easy... I didn't know what I was going to do for a career. I was asking the tarot every day, what should I do? What should I do? If there's something you want in your life, ask what that is every day. And I guarantee you within three to six months, probably sooner, you'll get the answer. But it's just about kind of focusing yourself and realizing it's something small. Just asking a question and opening yourself up to the wisdom. It will come. And funny enough, my answer was like, oh, you should be a tarot reader. And it was right. So yeah, it is so often something that would be seemingly insignificant or small that is so incredibly powerful. Andrew: Well, I think that reminds me of maybe three, four years ago I was feeling very log jammed by stuff. I was running the store. I was doing readings. It was all going well, but it was a lot to deal with. I had kids. I got a lot going on. And I was reading cards and trying to figure out essentially how to be happier because I was not super happy in that moment. And I put out the cards and journaling again. And I wrote when I'm free, I want to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right? And then I kind of stopped myself. And I looked back over like my past series of readings and stuff and almost all of them had similar language. And I was like, wait a second, when I'm free? Okay. I have my own store. I am my own boss. I can do whatever, maybe not immediately, but over time I can do anything I want with any of these things. I'm in a relationship, but it's an open relationship and I'm free to date other people and do whatever I want in that regards and so on and so on. And I'm like, when am I going to be more free than this? What would that even look like? It would look like, oh, I won the lottery and I've got $10 billion and I don't have to think about anything anymore. That would be more free. But I was like, oh, I already have this thing, but I'm putting my unhappiness onto this idea of lack of freedom as opposed to looking at my happiness and say, okay, what can I do to change this? And obviously, there are lots of people who are in positions where they don't have those freedoms. I was in a very privileged position around this. But I think that that idea of when we're reading or journaling or whatever, keep looking back and look for those patterns and look for those words that you're like, what's the central word there? What's the sexual thing there? And then try and unpack that and see what's there, because often there's something that could be done or there's a shift around our attention. And once I started dropping that story, I was like, "Oh, well, look at this. Now I'm going to do this and now I want to do that." One of the things was I was like talking to people on the phone isn't making me happy. I'm going to put in a booking system. And that's it. I'm going to stop talking to people by bookings. And I was like, oh, that's easy. Done. And I changed a few little things and it created a lot of movement. And then I started moving from there further, further into it. Sasha: And that's the funny thing. We nuance the stuff that we want and it makes it seem like we're swimming in this ocean when it's really quite simple. When I wrote 365 Tarot Spreads, which is a tarot spread for every day of the year, before I began, I thought, oh, I wonder if there's a limit of how many questions a human being could ask. And so I sat down and I researched it and I thought up as many questions as I could. And when you take out the personal nuances of your life, there's really under a hundred questions that a person could ask. And again, almost to the point of what we were talking about earlier, what's underneath is really quite simple. What we do is confuse it for all of this different stuff. I find that endlessly fascinating. And then you're like, "Oh my God, this is so much easier. I was making it all such a big deal." What you just described, and then realizing that you already have what you want. I love what I said about the magician card. It makes me so happy and it just gives me so much joy. He's got the four suits of tarot typically on his magician table. And I always say that you already have everything you need. It's in front of you. And that's the funny and interesting thing about making magic and casting spells when. Actually, I wrote an article, this technique called The Grief Eater Technique for one of the Llewellyn annuals. And it's about what happens when your witch's desires are not granted. You have to recognize that what you need is right there, perhaps you're not recognizing it or perhaps you don't see the gift or can't appreciate that what you are looking for us is staring at you in the face. And then that leads to the next magical tenet, which is know that you already have it. I have to say, a couple of years ago, I was dying to travel, but we just didn't have the money and the budget. And I have a teenage daughter. So the idea that the three of us could pick up and go halfway around the world was very ridiculous. And I thought, okay, tarot teaches me that the world repeats. That underneath all of this stuff, everything is the same. So I thought, okay, I can't go traveling the world right now. So I'm going to, every day, for five to 10 minutes, look for the entire world in my backyard. And whether that's on a city block in the city or that's in a puddle behind this house. And I started looking and traveling. And wouldn't you know it, Andrew, I swear to God, within a year for me doing that every day for 10 minutes, I was being literally invited to China, to the Middle East, all over the country. I started traveling like a fiend. And it was amazing, I think magic and tarot and figuring your stuff out can be so simple. We make it tough. Andrew: Yeah. I think it's interesting. Whenever people talk about magic, I'm always like, cool, what's the mechanism there? What accomplished that? And in the story you said, I'm kind of like, well, is that like doing devotion work to idea of travel for long enough that something, whatever it was, opened up and granted that to you? Is that aligning your attention to those things that started to make that more possible and sort of attaching yourself to those energies and actions and thoughts and stuff that make that happen? It happens on so many different levels. And I think that that kind of idea of ongoing continual practice around stuff is really fascinating and actually fits with a lot of what I do. I do a lot of sort of sigil and art-based magic. And on the regular, I'm making art sigils, art gifts, art petitions and giving them to the ancestors or giving them to whatever. And I just make them and make them and make them. There's a whole pile of them. I just sit there with them. And some of those are around bigger things or smaller things. A lot of them are just around like help me just understand what I really want and what I don't want. Help me to just be really clear about that. And that continuous, ongoing attention over years, it just turns into those moments where you're like, oh yeah, that's cool. Look, oh, I don't do that anymore. Oh, now I do know this. Oh, I have this clarity. Or also, hey, this thing opened up and this happened or that happened or, yeah, these opportunities, right? Sasha: And it's interesting. Because the impulse to seek that out or to create whatever it is that you're creating is already kind of implanted inside you, again, authentically. Talking about just being yourself, like a true, authentic version of expression of whatever is kind of embedded inside of you. When you either, A, I think recognize it in the material world or in nature, or when you write or paint, or also then create it, I do believe it's magnifying that energy which wanted to be seen. I love this idea that everything on the other side, all of what's in the invisible world or not yet manifested, I love the idea that it wants you as much as you want it. And not only just the things that you want, but kind of like everything. When you're walking through your garden and you can smell a cucumber or rosemary, I feel like it's begging you like, "Pay attention to me," Just like clients want to be seen in a tarot reading and they want you to understand them. I think everything in the invisible world wants to get your attention because it wants to be seen because it's exactly like us or that's us. It's all part and parcel. So the magical act is so inherently creative, there's just, I think, such power in the recognition and kind of the duality of creating it. And that's why it's so crazy and cool when you'll create a piece of art or write something and then like a year later you're standing inside of it. It's amazing. It's so cool. Andrew: So take away, magic school. Go through magic. Sasha: Practice magic every day. Do lots of magic. It's the perfect time of year anyway, if you're in the Northern hemisphere. Andrew: I think that's great. Well, maybe this is a good place to leave it with that and say, hey, go practice magic. Stay in it, stay curious, and look at that fear and work on it. Because I think that that stuff is gateways to all sorts of great possibilities. So for people who want to come and follow what you're up to, and of course people should do that, where are you hanging out online these days? What's your social stuff? Sasha: My social sitch. So I guess anybody who's interested in seeing what I'm up to can look on Instagram. I think I'm Sasha Taro Diva, Sasha Graham Taro Diva. Just Google Sasha Graham Taro and my stuff will come up. But I'm on sashagraham.com. I'm on Facebook and on Instagram primarily. Those are like my main social Hangouts. But more importantly, and probably something that would be even more interesting and helpful to you would be to like rather than looking for me online, look for my books and my tarot decks at independent bookstores. Support them. Get a tarot deck to play with. Grab one of my books. I promise you like 365 Spells or 365 Spreads is going to give you so much fun stuff that you can do and play with your cards and get into. Honestly, social is like a light version. Get one of my books, get one of my decks and play. I think that's the best way you can kind of get little piece of me. Andrew: I agree. I agree for sure. And speaking of that, we're going to wrap this up and we're going to go record a bonus episode for people who are supporters of the Patreon, where we're going to get into specifically how to play with regards to dig in and do a little shadow work. So if you're not already supporting the Patreon, go check it out and start. You're missing out on some fantastic stuff. All right. Thanks for being on today, Sasha. Sasha: Thanks so much.

Mark Horn is the author of the forthcoming Tarot & The Gates of Light: A Kabbalistic Path to Liberation. He started reading tarot at age 16 and has taken workshops and seminars with many of today’s best-known teachers, including Rachel Pollack, Mary K Greer, Robert Place, Ferol Humphrey and Ruth & Wald Amberstone. He taught a workshop on Kabbalistic Tarot as a Spiritual Path at the 2018 Readers Studio conference in New York. And he has taught Kabbalistic Tarot for Counting the Omer at Romemu, a post-denominational synagogue in New York. https://www.gatesoflighttarot.com/ ________________________________ Awakenings With Michele Meiche is Your place for tips and insight to live a more fulfilling life, and your relationships. Learn how to attract healthy relationships, and how to create a life you really love. Awakenings broadcasts live every Wed. 12pm -1:30 pm PT   Call in for Intuitive Readings #347-539-5122 Michele answers questions about Awakening, Spirituality, Metaphysics and Self/Soul Development. Michele also answers listener questions from email, twitter and facebook On Air. Email awakeningspodcast@gmail.com to have your questions answered or to share your insights On Air.  

Editor's Note: This episode was recorded before the COVID-19 outbreak, so many of the events mentioned may be postponed or canceled at the time this episode launches. Readers Studio has been canceled. Check Mark's page or the Inner Traditions page for updated author events. Please stay safe, everyone!Jaymi interviews Mark Horn, author of Tarot and the Gates of Light. They dive deep into Mark's book and discuss what it is and how to get the most out of the experience. Buy the book at your local metaphysical store or on amazon. The publisher, Inner Traditions, has an excerpt from the book where you can sneak peek at the material. Go check it out at https://www.innertraditions.com/books/tarot-and-the-gates-of-lightMark Horn has studied Kabbalah with academic, religious, and practical teachers, including Professor Elliot R. Wolfson at NYU, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi at Elat Chayyim, and Jason Shulman at A Society of Souls: Spiritual Healing School. He has studied Tarot with many of today's leading teachers, including Rachel Pollack, Mary K. Greer, Robert Place, Ruth Ann, and Wald Amberstone, and Ferol Humphrey. His writing has appeared in The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and Metrosource. A teacher of Kabbalistic tarot, he lives in New York City.You can visit Mark at https://www.gatesoflighttarot.com and locate his book's Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/TarotGates/.As always, we enjoy hearing your feedback and comments so send emails to tarotvisionsshow@gmail.com, or follow us on twitter at http://twitter.com/tarot_visions, or on Facebook at http://facebook.com/TarotVisionsUS.

Rose Red and Jaymi catch up. They talk about their experiences at the Last PantheaCon, brief everyone for the upcoming NWTS and Readers Studio experience, and give hints as to what they are working on tarot wise! Find more information about (and pre-order) Vox Arcana, the deck Rose Red and Jaymi co-authored at https://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738767291Learn more information about NWTS here: https://nwtarotsymposium.comLearn more information about Readers Studio: http://tarotschool.com/RS20/index.htmlDiscover Jaymi's new podcast, Cardslingers Coast to Coast, at its home at https://cardslingerscc.podbean.com. As always, we enjoy hearing your feedback and comments so send emails to tarotvisionsshow@gmail.com, or follow us on twitter at http://twitter.com/tarot_visions, or on Facebook at http://facebook.com/TarotVisionsUS.

It seems like there is no shortage of challenge these days. In this episode Andrew, Theresa and Shaheen talk about how to keep going when the going gets tough. Sharing both personal stories and tools as well as things they have learned from their work as card readers.   To sign up for the Patreon to get access to the bonus recordings for each episode. You can do so here. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Shaheen lives here online and here on Facebook.   Teresa is here online and here on Facebook.   Andrew is here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.   ~Andrew   Transcript   Andrew McGregor: Welcome to another episode of The Hermits Lamp Podcast. I am here today with Shaheen Miro and Theresa Reed, aka The Tarot Lady. I've known Theresa for years. She's been on the podcast before. You should certainly go back and find those episodes. I will link to them in show notes. Theresa is a fantastic astrologer, a tremendous business person, and a wonderful card reader. Andrew McGregor: I've known Shaheen a little less time. We had the pleasure to meet at Readers Studio, big conference in New York, a couple of years ago. They really are a delightful, kind, mystic, and insightful human beings. This episode came about because the two of them put out a book called Tarot For Troubled Times. And those of you who listen know that I don't really do book or deck reviews or these kinds of things. Andrew McGregor: But also, life's been hard for a lot of people over the last while; financially, economically, socially, there's a lot of difficult stuff going on in the world. It really occurred to me that chatting with these to find people would be a wonderful way to maybe talk about how do we deal with that stuff. Because life is not always easy. So, for people who don't know who you are, Shaheen, maybe you want to just give us a quick introduction. Shaheen Miro: Yeah. I'm Shaheen Miro, and I am an intuitive reader. I'm the coauthor of Tarot for Troubled Times, and I'm also the creator of the Lunar Nomad Oracle. I just do lots of magical stuff all over the internet and the world. So, that's me. Andrew McGregor: Awesome. Theresa? Theresa Reed: My name is Theresa Reed, and like Andrew said, I'm known as The Tarot Lady. I've been a full-time Tarot reader for about 30 years, which seems like a lifetime. I am the author of The Tarot Coloring Book and Astrology For Real Life, and the coauthor of Tarot for Troubled Times with the beautiful Shaheen Miro. Andrew McGregor: Excellent. So, I guess this question for me is, really, what do you do when life is difficult? I go on social media, and some days it's depressing, some days it's absolutely uplifting and wonderful. You read the news, and we've got climate change, we've got all sorts of political unrest. At the time of the recording of this, we have the Corona Virus that's kicking around making everybody afraid. There's a lot of stuff that can really drag us down and is genuinely concerning, or is worthy of some level of concern. Andrew McGregor: But also, we still got to get up. I still got to get up and get my kids to school. I still got to show up and work on my accounting for my business. I still got to hang out with the person I'm dating and be present. So, where do you start if stuff's dragging you down and trying to move beyond that? Shaheen Miro: I think you start right where you are. That's the biggest thing. I was talking with some clients yesterday, and I think there is this idea that life is supposed to be easy if you're doing things correctly. I just feel like that is such a toxic mindset, and I feel like it keeps us from moving into this present moment. I know that that sounds really, I don't know, cliché, to be present and be here now, but I think it's so true with everything that's happening in the world. Because otherwise, you just become overwhelmed by literally everything because there's something happening on all fronts. Theresa Reed: I agree with the being present thing because it's so often when life gets hard, what do we want to do? We want to numb out. We don't want to be there. We want to maybe zone out in front of the TV, or turn to drugs or alcohol, or retail therapy. That's so common. We become obsessed with the past or obsessed with the future. And the present moment is really ultimately, as real as it sounds, the only thing that matters when life is tough. You have got to be where are you are, and then you also have to make yourself care the priority. Shaheen Miro: Yeah. Something that I have been reminding myself of lately... And I started thinking about this because of this book I read. It's called something like Get Shit Done by a woman named Sarah Knight. She talks about your to-do list and your must-do list. One of the things that she talks about in there is how we all have things that have to get done on a daily basis. Shaheen Miro: And so, I think about that with this idea of being present. It's like if you're present, then you might have one or two things that you have to face, accomplish, digest right now. But if you start getting stuck in the past or thinking about the future too much, then you become really attached to so many things that it's like your energy just gets zapped. I think that's such a... it's just such a common thing. We are taught to be in all those different places all at one time in our society. I think that's why we're all going crazy. I shouldn't say that word, but... Andrew McGregor: Yeah, I think that being really clear about what actually needs doing is super important. Because depending on what we're talking about being difficult, sometimes only time's going to make it better. In as much as it gets better, some things need other things to change or we don't have control of. Andrew McGregor: I remember when... probably 10 years ago now, two of my brothers passed away within six weeks of each other. It was rough. But one of the things that really moved forward for me was... going and getting therapy and getting attention on it, absolutely. But that's the longterm process. The short term stuff was I had a six-month old kid, and I had a two-and-a-half year old, and I had a dog at the time. It was like, all right, dogs got to be walked, kid needs to do the thing. Got it. Andrew McGregor: As much as it sucked and I wanted to do nothing, I didn't really have that opportunity. In looking at my journey through it... And you can't compare yourself and other people because there are lots of factors. But looking at my journey through it and the journey of people who had a lot of free time on their hands or it didn't have a lot of structure, those people seemed to suffer longer, suffer more deeply, have more difficulty moving past it. Andrew McGregor: I think that the idea of sitting in stuff is really not helpful. We can feel like, "Are we processing? Are we doing work on it? Whatever." But one of the things I often say to people is, I'm like, "If there's not an event on your calendar that you're working on a thing, then you're probably not really working on it that much." That might just be like, "I'm going to go and journal with the cards. That might be therapy, it might be whatever." But if you're just around and ruminating, it's not necessarily moving anywhere with things. Again, depending on what we're talking about. Theresa Reed: Well, the one thing I would add to that is when the world is really taking a shit, when there's something bad going on, like an election you don't like, or like the virus spreading or anything really hard, the one thing I always remind people... And I remind my kids this all the time too, because my kids are very political, of course, as young millennials there... that life goes on. The most horrible things are always happening in the world. It's not like it's just now. There's always some horrible things happening in the world, but people still... at the end of the day, they rebuild. They go down and get coffee, they get their kids to school. Theresa Reed: Ultimately, we're all still doing the day-to-day things. Even when horrible things are going on, life does go on. And so, we have to put things in perspective because it's so often we can really feel like down and out, especially when bad things are happening in the world. And the world always goes on. Theresa Reed: One of the things I always say to my daughter is, because she's a worrier and she'll say stuff like, "Well, what if we have a nuclear war?" And I'm like, "Well, if we do, the world will still go on. Nature will still go on." Nature is amazing. So, we have to really be, not just in the present moment but not thinking that everything is ending right now. If the stock market crashes or if something happens, life will always go on. Life has always gone on with horrible Wars and terrible things happening in the world. So, we do have to remember that. Shaheen Miro: I think that really gets to the heart of this idea that troubled times or difficult situations is... I don't want to... It's weird to say, but they're not necessarily bad. It's just part of the process. I think that we have, again, this idea that things should be easy, and flowing, and moving. I think that that's part of our society. We've really been inundated by this idea that we can curate our lives in a way that everything is just happy and wonderful. And if it's not, then something is wrong. Shaheen Miro: I think that actually gets into how we, as magical people, practice. Because I think a lot of times when you're a person who does spell work, or if you're a person who does Tarot, or works with crystals, you think, "Well, I need to be doing all of these different things to be combating what's happening in the world, or to be making my life better. Shaheen Miro: And sometimes it really is as simple as just sitting, meditating. My mantra for this year is surrender. That's my word. Just surrendering, surrendering to what's happening, surrendering to what I'm feeling, and even surrendering to what I'm not capable of doing. Some of that has looked like me simplifying my practice. So, rather than doing elaborate spells or ceremonies, it's just lighting a white candle and just being with that. Or instead of having all my millions of crystals everywhere, it's like I just have these simple prayer beads that I'm carrying with me. Shaheen Miro: I think that's just as powerful and effective as anything else that could be complex or elaborate. I think sometimes we need that when the world is feeling crazy, or when it's feeling just... like it's weighing on you. Theresa Reed: Simplified. Andrew McGregor: I have a question for you. A couple of times you've brought up this idea of not everything can be easy or maybe even good, whatever that means, positive, as we desire. But that that doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong. I'm wondering, how do you know? How do you differentiate between there being something wrong versus the stress intention of just living in the world at times, that we just have to abide. Shaheen Miro: I think it comes down to how you use that information. I think that... Again, going back to what Theresa is talking about, how a lot of times we want to numb out when we're experiencing something difficult. I think in Tarot for Troubled Times, we talk about this, how our difficult experiences are trying to give us insight about who we are, or what's happening inside of us or around us. Shaheen Miro: I think that rather than looking at that as good or bad, you can say, "Okay, well this is difficult, or this doesn't feel good." But how are you using that information? How is that moving you forward? Just like pain in your body. Not that illness or pain is a good thing, but it's letting you know that something needs to be acknowledged and addressed. And so, in that way, it is a positive. Shaheen Miro: And so, I really think that's what it comes down to. How are you using that information? Think about it in regards to working with someone in a Tarot session or in a reading, every piece of information isn't going to be positive and uplifting. But if you present it in a way and if you hold space for that person in a way that they can use that to move forward, then it does become something positive. Theresa Reed: Well, and the other thing too that we have to remember is oftentimes what we really want to do is hold on to all the good stuff. We'll hold on to that. We get very, very hung up on that. I tend to be very neutral. There's that old fable where the king is given the ring that says, 'This too shall pass,' and that's how he finds joy. If we are present with whatever is and not getting attached to the great things or the bad things in our life, and being more neutral in the face of both, I think that often does really lead to a lot more contentment no matter what's going on in your life or in the world. Shaheen Miro: I agree with that. Theresa Reed: Don't get me wrong, I like to hang on to good thing, so this is a practice of mine. But I'm always trying to like not go like, "Oh, my God, I just wish things were like blah, blah, blah." I still have moments where I get really angry. You guys saw me earlier. I have my moments where I get mad, I get perturbed. And then I catch myself, I recenter myself, and I'm like, "Okay, how can I just be present? How can I be neutral right now? What can I do in this situation? Is it a situation where I can turn things around? Do I need to ask for help?" Theresa Reed: Sometimes there's [inaudible 00:15:19] where people are... they're in a situation that's very difficult that you can't just wish it away either, or people who are in really deeply oppressed situations. Finding a way to ask for help is sometimes the biggest thing that you can do. Shaheen Miro: I think that is such a powerful thing, asking for help. And for me, that's part of this whole mantra of surrendering. I feel like, again, we live in this society that perpetuates independence. Asking for help isn't seen as a sexy thing. And yet, it's still important, especially in the global climate that we're in because we need to be cultivating a sense of society and connectedness, and holding space for each other. I think asking for help is part of that. Shaheen Miro: Asking for help can be something big or small. It doesn't have to be a really complex thing. But oftentimes, I think that's why people come to a Tarot reading. They want insight, they want clarity. In some ways, they want help and permission, even, to think, feel, and do whatever it is that they're feeling called to do. And to me, I think that's such a powerful step for people. Andrew McGregor: And I think that one of the... Apparently, this is the episode where I talk about all the hard things that have gone on in my life. Shaheen Miro: Let them out. Andrew McGregor: People who listen to the podcast and lots of people already know, last year, in March, my store burned down. It's one of those things where it absolutely became a time where, A, I asked for help. And I got to experience the positive response of all the people who felt that I had helped them in the past and I had a connection with. And so, I think that one of the things that's helpful around living in the world is building a sense of connection, and working to be in community, and working to give and share and be there for other people, again, within healthy boundaries. Andrew McGregor: There are lots of people who also have a really problematic sides to that where they just give and give and give to people who aren't there for them. But yeah, asking for help is certainly important. I think that understanding that we're all in it together... It doesn't feel that way, especially when we get into politics sometimes. But at a certain point, noticing that at least within our communities, we're all in it together, and being really aware of that as a way of moving things forward for yourself. Andrew McGregor: Because a lot of people struggle to accept help, and being aware of... Because I had that moment, I'm like, "Well whatever, look at all these people who are giving me money, whatever." These people are spending time with at the time where like, "Well, dude, how many times if you thrown some money into a GoFundMe or shown up for somebody or whatever? Of course, you get it back. That's how it goes." But I think it's important to think of if we're not in need right now to recognize that we might be, and to think about how we want to be in the world, and how we would like people to be with us in reciprocation. Shaheen Miro: I feel like sometimes people want to help us, and because we haven't asked for help, they don't know if they can. And so, I think there's that two-way street of giving and receiving, and saying whatever it is you need. When you were talking about how we're all in this together, sometimes it doesn't feel that way. Shaheen Miro: You're talking about your store burning down. There's probably a moment where you felt like, "Well, this is just me. It's my store, it burned down. No one else understands what that feels like." But then when you ask for that help, you get to see how interconnected you are with other people, and how you have influenced them and helped them through your store, through your... just through who you are. I think we all have those kind of connections with people. Shaheen Miro: I was just talking to a friend the other day about going to the doctor, and how they didn't want to talk to their doctor about certain things because they felt ashamed or vulnerable. And I'm like, your doctor is there to help you. Regardless of what certain people think about medicine or whatever, your doctor is there to help you. And if you're going to the doctor for something, they can only help you as much as you're willing to allow them to. And so, in that way, you're in it together. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. Well, I think that's actually a perfect example of how do you know when something's wrong? So, your doctor and you are in it together, which is fantastic, unless they're not. That's one of those things. If your experience of your doctor is that they're a bit fat-phobic or they're not sex positive, and so you don't feel comfortable talking about a thing or whatever, well, there's a perfect example of, huh, that's a thing that's in them, you can't fix that. It's not your job to fix that. Andrew McGregor: Again, it's complicated sometimes to find a new doctor, but that's where maybe making that kind of change or finding a different resource can be really helpful too. Because I think that that discomfort, I think it's... if it's in us, then absolutely working through that is fantastic, and helps us become clear and more open and so on. Andrew McGregor: I know in Toronto, we have a hassle-free clinic for STI testing. And there's doctors, some people, and whatever. They're not great about those things. So, for any number of reasons, people might choose to go to a different resource for that. I think that that's really good, taking care of ourselves as well when we can notice those things. We don't want to talk to this friend about this because they're not great about it, or our parents, or a coworker, whoever. Noticing that problem that's not ours to fix and saying, "Huh, I'm going to go somewhere where I can actually get the support I need." Shaheen Miro: I think that's also an important piece to this is that you have to know who you're asking for help, or where you're getting your nourishment and your support from. Well, first of all, the other thing I wanted to say... And I talk about this all the time with clients and online... is that I think our secret power, everyone's secret power is the power of choice. We all have the ability to make a choice about something. Shaheen Miro: Now, I think that that varies depending on who you are and where you're at in the world. But we all have the power to make a choice. And just like you were saying, if you're in a situation like your doctor isn't someone that you're comfortable with, you can look for something else. But I also feel like, oftentimes, we lean into support that's not really supportive. Shaheen Miro: I know all three of us work with clients privately, and a lot of times when I'm working with someone, they're coming to me and talking about things that they feel like they can't talk to anyone else about it, or no one else will really hear them objectively and allow them to process what they're going through. And we all need that safe space and that support. So, find a good Tarot reader. Andrew McGregor: And a great Tarot reader, yes. Well, I think some people feel bad. I've heard people say to me that they feel bad they don't have any friends, and they have to pay someone to listen to their problems. I think that... My experience is I've gone to therapy at different points. I was talking about after my brother's death, I did a whole bunch of counseling, and so on, for a long period of time. I think that depending on what's going on in our lives, depending on what the nature of our challenges are, maybe our friends aren't even the best people or even helpful necessarily. Not out of malice or whatever, but out of lack of objectivity, out of lack of skill, out of lack of having slack for some topics, for any number of reasons. Andrew McGregor: And that doesn't mean that we can't be friends with them or talk about certain levels of problems with them, but there are often those things that are bigger, deeper, more private, or that other people just don't have any experience with. And finding those people who can actually connect with that makes a ton of sense, and ends up being way more effective or efficient and moving things forward. Andrew McGregor: Because when we're caught up with wobbling back and forth with people that we know personally around stuff, maybe we hedge our words, maybe we're not as direct, maybe we are concerned what comes from that or what they think of us. Whereas, "I certainly hope that people come see me," or like, "I don't care what he thinks about me, I'm just going to come and get what I need from it." And in that sense, I think that's really important. Shaheen Miro: I always tell my clients like, "This is the safe zone, and we can talk about anything and everything." I love it when I have a client who tells me... not really a dirty little secret, but something that they wouldn't say anywhere else. I have clients who, all the time, will say, "I've never said that out loud before." As a reader, you hear it all, and so there's nothing that's really shocking, or at least for me, there's not. I want people to have that experience. Shaheen Miro: Now, something that I've been thinking about lately, and I think both of you would have insight around this, is when you are in a position where you're helping people, you're guiding people... And that could be professionally or it could be personally, like as a parent or something. What happens when you feel like you need help? How do you open up around that? And I think that's something a lot of people maybe feel difficulty around, or they struggle with. What are your guys' thoughts about that? Andrew McGregor: One of the things that I'll throw out there as just an initial thought then I want to hear what Theresa has to say, I came across this little graphic about the idea of pouring support in towards the center of the series of concentric circles, and reaching for support outward. And so, the idea is like, if it's in the middle, we have the person who needs our help, who is asking us for help. That could be our kids, that could be a coworker, it could be whatever, friend. The idea that if something they're asking us for causes us to need or want assistance around something, we don't lean on that person who's in the middle, the person who came to us with their need. It's not their job to fix our feelings to their requests. We need to find a way to reach further to people who are not that person, and so on down the line. Andrew McGregor: I think that that's often where there's a complication that happens where people reach back to the person who asked and try and get them to help them be okay so that they can give them the help that they're asking for. That's a really problematic model. One of the things I think is super important is when we do need help, making sure that we're choosing directions that don't make things more difficult for the person that we're... like with kids, already committed to helping in some way or other. What do you think Theresa? Theresa Reed: Oh, I agree 100%. I also think if you have sources of support around you, you're going to... You should always build up your support system. You should build up your own support system so that if you are in a situation where you are trying to help somebody else out, and you are feeling overwhelmed or some type of way about it, that you have other places that you can go, or other places that you can send that person. Theresa Reed: Because sometimes it's... With my daughter, for example, she has a therapist, so does my son because sometimes talking to mom isn't really helpful because they're going to get the mom perspective. So, they know when to do that. I know how I process information for myself. I tend to be very, very private when I am dealing with any situation. I know that when I'm feeling also overwhelmed or something's going on, I often have to tell the people that I love to give me space. I have to request that space. So, you have to really figure out what kind of support you need, what kind of support you can give. I guess you just have to be willing to be upfront about it. Shaheen Miro: Theresa, something that you do that I really love is you're very open about things that are happening in your world. You're not just open with people who are in your inner circle, but you talk about things that are happening in your world, in your business online. What do you feel prompts that? How do you feel like that helps you? That's something I love about you. How do you feel like that helps you, and how do you feel that helps other people? Theresa Reed: Well, first of all, always... I'm a Gemini. Geminis love to talk things out. Even though my moon in Scorpio wants the real private stuff to be worked out, but I'm pretty much an open book on a lot of things. I like to talk about it because it helps me to process things, or I write about it. And the other thing that I find, when I talk about it or write about it, it helps other people. Sometimes that helps them to know, "I'm not alone." And therefore, then they reach back, and I'm like, "Oh, I'm not alone either." So, we kind of... In a really weird way, it's like it's a way to show other people, "Look, you're not the only one dealing with this bullshit right now. I am too." So, we end up, ultimately, helping each other out. Theresa Reed: I think it's important to talk about things too. Sometimes my husband is like, "That's TMI. Why are you talking about that?" And I'm like, "But it's something to talk about. Why am I supposed to put on an Instagram filter and pretend everything's great? If something's going on, let me share it." But also, when something great is going on, let's share that too. I just think it really helps people to see, again, they're not alone, and that I'm not some glossy, fancy, everything is perfect in my life person because it's not, and I don't think anybody's life is like that. Shaheen Miro: Right. Andrew McGregor: No, for sure. I also think it... One of my things I've experienced is we also get to decide what our narrative is around stuff. And this is one of the challenges around sharing stuff online. When the fire happened, there were definitely people who were like, "Oh, this happened for a reason, and it's all going to be better and whatever." I was basically like, "Fuck that, fuck off. I don't have time for that." Andrew McGregor: And whatever might be true in that idea, I've never found it helpful. Because at a certain point, things that have been good that have come out of the change that happened came because I worked with the complete disruption and leaned into it, and then made a lot of decisions and did a lot of work around it. But there's a way in which people will put their agendas or put their ideas forward in a way that really makes it about what seems true to them or what suits them in situations. Andrew McGregor: And the thing that suits me in situations is going, "All right, shit just got real. What do I do?" It's not defined plan or other things, maybe whatever, time will tell. But for me it's like, "Okay, what can I do practically? What could I do spiritually? What can I do to move forward from this place?" Andrew McGregor: The thing about social media is it is a lot of people who will come on to stuff and nudge it in their directions and so on. I think it's really important to understand that our stories are ours, our experiences are ours. And we get to decide what that is, and shut things down. If we're talking about social media, just tell people, no thanks, delete the post, delete the comments, whatever. But that we're not obliged to live in somebody else's stories, ever. And most especially when we're going through hard times, it makes no sense to allow other people to control the direction where we're building our stories that get us through these things. Shaheen Miro: Yeah. I think that is such a difficult thing, not only on social media, but even more so in real life, especially with family. I feel like a lot of times those are the things that clients struggle with when I'm working with people where their perspective, or their experience, or the choices that they are making or would like to make are not in alignment with the people around them. And so, then that makes them feel... Going back to what we were talking about in the very beginning, like they're maybe moving in the wrong direction. It's like, well, is it the wrong direction or is it just a different direction than what other people are expecting of you? Shaheen Miro: I love what you talked about about constructing your own narrative because I think that's what life is. We're all telling our own stories. It's not as simple as we get to make it whatever we want it to be, but we do get to allow certain things to fly in our personal worlds. You can always... One of my favorite things is you can always kick people out of your life, whether it seems easy or not. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. Let's talk about that more. How about kicking people out of our lives? Shaheen Miro: Yeah. For me, I think boundaries are so, so, so essential. I think kicking people out of your life doesn't always have to be a dramatic thing. Sometimes it's simple as you just fade away or disengage. I've had a lot of people recently talk about... And I don't know why this keeps coming up, but it's just in random conversation. But I keep hearing people say, "You have to pick your battles." That's a saying people say all the time. Shaheen Miro: But I've been hearing it a lot more, and I think that's interesting because I agree with that. There are certain things that you can fight and they can make a difference. And then, there are certain things that you just have to disengage with. I think people are a perfect example of that. Shaheen Miro: If you have a difficult family member and you feel like you're never going to get through to them, or they're never going to see your perspective, or see you, don't try to convince them. Maybe it's time to move on. Yeah, I don't know. I think that just having the permission to be able to say, "Oh, I don't have to have people in my life. I don't want them to be in my life," is really important for people. And it's very difficult at the same time. Theresa Reed: I will say one thing. One of the biggest forms of self-care are boundaries. We need boundaries. Boundaries teach people how we want to be treated. At the same token, we have to also honor other people's boundaries. And I'll tell you one thing, when you have adult children, you learn a lot about their boundaries too and about how to honor it. I always say, "If you want to get along with your adult children, one of the most important things is to learn to shut your mouth." So, it's very interesting. The roles really change. Theresa Reed: But boundaries are... again, they're a form of self-care. They're so, so, so important in every aspect of your life. And I think so often... I can say especially as a woman, women are taught we're supposed to be nice, we're supposed to smile. You've got to be kind, and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And especially women from my generation, that's what we were taught. And when you speak up and say, "No, I'm not doing this, uh-uh (negative)," you're a bitch. And it feels very scary to do that. Theresa Reed: But learning to say no and learning to say, "I'm not doing that, I don't like this," it's really empowering for you. It is going to help you deal with things in your life a lot better when you have those boundaries. Like Shaheen said, sometimes you've got to kick people out of your life, absolutely. Some people do not belong in your life. If they are constantly violating your boundaries, if they are pushing past it, if they want exceptions to everything, that means they do not respect your no. And they've got to go. They've got to go. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. People ask for exceptions. Theresa Reed: I hate that. Andrew McGregor: As a person who runs a store, there are people who will ask for discounts, or ask for this or that or whatever, those kinds of things. People come in and be like, "Oh, but I'm such a good client. I'm such whatever, whatever." And then, the next is, "Oh, don't you have this anymore?" I'm like, "Well, no, I haven't had that for a year, so that means I haven't seen you for a year. So, you're here asking me for a discount, but I haven't seen you in forever." Those kinds of exceptions, I think, are really not ideal. Andrew McGregor: I think that we get to decide. It's up to us to offer the exception. That's how I think about things. It's like, well, if I'm available for something different, cool. But otherwise, especially professionally, it's like those boundaries are there for a reason. Andrew McGregor: When it comes to people in my life, one of the things that... a conversation I have with clients a lot is... because they don't necessarily want to go to a person and be like, "I can't be friends anymore. We're done." And that's a hard thing to have. Sometimes you need to have that conversation. Sometimes there's no way around it. But I also think about the idea of nudging people out of our orbits a bit. Andrew McGregor: So, we can take space in a lot of different ways. We can knock it back to them right away. We cannot always answer the phone when they call. We can be like, "Oh, I'm busy. I'll call you tomorrow." We can start nudging people and be like, "Well, they want to see me every week, but let's see how every other week goes. Let's see how once a month is. I'm happy seeing my family at Christmas and other holidays." All the way up to nothing. But that process allows us to find what feels good to us, and find what they're still available for because they might also be like, "I don't see you enough. I'm not going to reciprocate either." But either way, it finds the answer for us, it finds what feels okay. Hopefully, it feels good. Andrew McGregor: But maybe bypasses some of that confrontational that people think about boundaries. Where people think you need to be like, "Look, I don't like you anymore. We're done." I've had a few friends over the years who did something like that. I was like, "Really? Wow. So dramatic. So funny." [crosstalk 00:41:11]. Theresa Reed: But can I just tell you one thing about the dramatic thing? Andrew McGregor: Yes, tell us everything about the dramatic thing. Theresa Reed: I have found that if I don't get dramatic, I don't get respect. So, sometimes I have to be a stone cold bitch. You guys know me, I'm a pussy cat. I'm really easy going, I'm happy-go-lucky. I love to have a good, I love a good meal. I like gossip and stuff like that. I'm very, very easy going. I've got a great sense of humor. And so, I think then that people just assume, "Oh, blah, blah blah. She's going to make an exception for me." And if I say no, then they'll think I'm bluffing. Theresa Reed: But when I'm a hardcore bitch, you better believe they get out of my way then. I hate that because you know what, I don't like having to be like that. But sometimes that seems that's the only way that I get results. It sucks. Andrew McGregor: I think that personality and temperament are part of it. I think that gender is absolutely a part of it. It's a conversation that I hear a lot more from people who are on the female side of the equation. Definitely those things are real. Theresa Reed: Can be. Shaheen Miro: Another thing that, at least for me, has been true is, you don't always have to explain yourself. Theresa Reed: Exactly. That's a hard one for me. Shaheen Miro: Yeah. And that's a really beautiful thing once you let that come into your being, into your worldview, is that you don't have to explain yourself as long as your actions or the things that you're moving toward feel really just aligned with you. And that sometimes can be a tricky thing to figure out as well, but I feel like not having to explain yourself saves people a lot of trouble. Shaheen Miro: I loved what you were talking about, pushing people slowly out of your orbit. It's like you don't have to go to your shitty uncle and be like, "I don't want to see you anymore." You can just slowly push them away. You don't have to explain it. You don't have to justify it. I think that's very liberating for people, for any kind of choice that you're making. Theresa Reed: Absolutely. It's interesting because I took a class with Randi Buckley called Healthy Boundaries for Kind People. And one of the things that she also talked about too was not explaining yourself. And I'm an explainer because I'm a talker. And I'm like, "Look, this is why I'm not doing that." And I'm like, "Why am I doing that?" It's really hard to break that habit of explaining. When you explain, what ends up happening then with boundaries, then people look for an out. Shaheen Miro: I was to say, yeah, they look for a weak spot in that boundary. Theresa Reed: And they find it, and they'll say, "Well, but I'm not a jerk. Why not make an exception for me?" So, it's really interesting. Not explaining, that's really great that you brought that up. That also, again, is also a form of self-care. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. Shaheen Miro: Yeah. Andrew McGregor: Reminds me of that salesperson maxim: if we're still talking, you haven't actually said no yet. I think there are people who live their life that way. If there's still a conversation, then it's not actually a solid boundary. And sometimes, you just got to close that door and be like, "Don't stick your foot in the door, salesman. I'm going to slam the door. We're done. Get out." And that's it. Shaheen Miro: I think that's why... to me, that's why Tarot is such a powerful thing because sometimes we don't even realize that we're still having that conversation, that we're still engaging in certain dynamics. We feel the effects of it, but we don't realize why we feel that way because maybe it's subconscious, or maybe it's just so common in your life that you just don't even know that that's happening anymore. I think Tarot is beautiful because you can zoom out, and you can see these things. Shaheen Miro: And one of the things I love when I'm laying out cards, when I'm working with someone in-person, which isn't all that often, but when I do, if a person sees a card and they're like, "Oh, that's so and so in my life." And it's like they might not have any knowledge about it, about that card or what the symbolism is, or anything, but just seeing that gives them the sense of, "Oh, I have externalized, and I can understand the bigger picture of what's happening. And now I can do something with it." Shaheen Miro: To me, I think, that, again, goes back to being able to make a choice. When you know what all is happening from a larger perspective and you're not right in the thick of it, then you have a bit more power to make a choice, or to pivot, or to go in a certain direction with deeper intention. Andrew McGregor: Well, what about spiritually? Are there spiritual practices that you do around this kind of stuff? What do you do to sustain yourself during challenging times? Theresa Reed: Meditation and yoga are my two go-to things because I know when I'm on the mat and I'm moving my body, or I'm sitting quietly and tuning within, that always makes me feel better. It may not solve the problem, and oftentimes it doesn't solve the problem, but I'm feeling physically better. I'm going within, I'm processing information. So, that is always my favorite, favorite things to turn to. But there's all kinds of other things. You can do magical practices and rituals, that can also enhance and strengthen your boundaries, or energy, or whatever you want to say. That can also help you to move through any kind of challenges. Shaheen Miro: Yeah. For me, well, yoga is actually a big part of my practice as well. And the thing that I love about yoga is that you have to be present, you have to be... You don't have to be, but you know as soon as you slip out of what you're doing, your pose or whatever it is that you're... whatever asana you're in, that's not going to flow or to work. So, I love movement in general for grounding, and centering, and getting present. Shaheen Miro: Ritual is a big part of what I do. And again, it can be as simple as just lighting a candle. One of the things I talk with clients about quite a bit, it's just the simple practice of using ritual and ceremony as a way to engage all the parts of yourself. So, if you light a candle and you say, "This is the shitty situation I'm in, and as this candle is melting, my situation is melting away." That might not change everything, but it makes you feel like you have a bit of control, or you can externalize what it is that you're feeling. And I think seeing that and engaging with that, that moves energy. Shaheen Miro: Or if you light a candle and you say, "As this candle is burning, whatever it is that I need to bring in my life is attracted to it. It's like a moth to a flame." Again, that engages another part of yourself and allows that energy to move toward you. I think that gives... for me, that gives me a way of finding... I don't want to say control, but feeling like I have a choice in the matter. Shaheen Miro: I also really lean into my spirit allies. I have multiple spirits that I work with. But one of the things that I like to do is I just say, "To my guardians, my ancestors and angels, be with me. I thank you for being with me." And I give offerings, or I light candles. Something about that practice makes me feel supported, it makes me feel like I'm not alone. Something out there has a broader perspective than I do, and can maybe see something that I can't see. Shaheen Miro: I was listening to an interview with Elizabeth Gilbert and Oprah, and Liz Gil was talking about how when her partner died, she felt like she suddenly had a very powerful ambassador on the other side. And when she said that, that really resonated with me. Because I feel like we all have somebody who... whether we've known them in life or we just feel a very special connection to, there's something bigger than us that's out there. And if we engage with that, we feel less alone, and we also can use that energy to move forward. Shaheen Miro: I moved to Colorado recently, and I've always felt a connection to the Virgin Mary. I wasn't raised Christian at all, but I've just always felt a connection to the Virgin Mary. There's a place called Mother Cabrini Shrine, and it's near where I live. Mother Cabrini was the first American Saint. But I go there all the time to just light candles and to meditate because I feel like I'm connecting with something bigger than myself. Not just the energy of the Virgin Mary or Mother Mary, but also the energy of other people who have gone there out of faith. And even though it's very different than mine, there's an energy that accumulates there. And so, I'm constantly trying to work with that, if that makes sense. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, totally does. I'm just going to put an unpopular opinion right now. I hate yoga. I hate yoga so much. Yoga was just makes me [crosstalk 00:51:46]. Shaheen Miro: That's okay. Theresa Reed: You haven't done yoga with me. Shaheen Miro: Why do you hate it? Andrew McGregor: I've done yoga all over the world with so many different teachers, and it just makes me grumpy whenever I do it. So, I've given up doing yoga. I did yoga practice daily for over a year and so on. And this notion that I would push through and like asana-based yoga practice, well, it's just never happened. So, I've given up on it. Shaheen Miro: And now you know. Andrew McGregor: And now I know. But the thing that I... I love meditation. I'm very good at just sitting and meditating for relatively long periods of time. I love elements of yoga. I love the breath work and other things. But just yoga class and those things, I always just leave grumpier than when I arrived. So, I've given up on it. Theresa Reed: You should take a class with me. Andrew McGregor: Well, I will make the trip, and then you could buy me a coffee afterwards if I'm grumpy. Theresa Reed: It will change your mind because- Andrew McGregor: Perfect. Theresa Reed: ... our yoga classes are very different here. Shaheen Miro: Oh, sorry. Andrew McGregor: That's okay. But for me, it's not just about being more active because there are lots of ways in which I do self-care that's very still and very quiet as well. But also, I super love rock climbing, and rock climbing is one of my favorite self-care, especially during challenging times because when I'm on the wall and working on a problem, I can't think about anything else. There's nothing else. There's just the immediacy of it. And it's the same with distance cycling and stuff. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, my brain might churn for the first 20 minutes or hour, but into a three-hour ride, at a certain point, it's just you, and the road, and the movement of your body, and the flowing of other things, and that's it. And so, I think that there are lots of active ways in which we could do that that are not numbing out and avoiding things, but are bringing us to being present through different mechanisms. Shaheen Miro: I think another important thing for people to know is that self-care and spirituality doesn't have to look a certain way. One of my favorite spiritual practices is singing, whether that's getting wild on my guitar or going to karaoke. It's not really a numbing out thing. It's like I get to not be in the mire of everything that's happening, and I get to connect with myself. Shaheen Miro: There's something really beautiful about that. But I think a lot of times, especially when people are starting their spiritual journey or their magical journey, they get caught up in what does that look like? And it's like if you feel like turn it on heavy metal and head banging for an hour is grounding and centering to you, then that's totally fine. That doesn't have to be the case for anybody else. So, I think it comes down to, are you connecting with yourself, or are you numbing out? I guess that's a big question. Theresa Reed: It's a huge question. Shaheen Miro: The other thing that I wonder sometimes... Because I think with our book Tarot for Troubled Times, we've had multiple people ask us... or talk in the sense that they need to get rid of their shadow because we talk about shadow work. One of the things that I feel is that we aren't trying to... Where was I going with that? We aren't trying to, I guess, fix things necessarily. It's really just about being where you are, being with what is happening. I think that's where our spiritual practice can really lie. Being with where you are. I don't know. When we're talking about numbing out, I wonder is there a time where numbing out is okay? Is that always a bad thing? Theresa Reed: Numbing out once in a while is okay. Absolutely. Sometimes at the end of the day, if I've had a really challenging day, let's say with clients, pouring myself a nice big glass of wine and putting on the new Pope, which is the new thing that I'm into right now, and just forgetting about it. Having a little escape is good. Provided it's not done too excess. There has to be a limit. Numbing out in front of the TV every single night drinking three glasses of wine is not good. But on occasion, just sitting back... And that's one of my favorite ways to unwind is a nice glass of wine and something on TV. Shaheen Miro: I think if you check in with yourself and ask yourself, "How do I feel?" That can gauge if that's useful or not for you. Sometimes when I'm really, really, really going through it... I always suggest this to people... I take a nap. I get in my bed and I take a nap because I'm like, "You know what, I can't do anything by thinking about this or talking about it. So, I'm going to get in my bed, I'm going to take a nap, and something will happen. The world will at least keep on moving. Maybe my thoughts will untangle. Maybe the spirits will give me a message. I don't know. But I'm just going to take a nap." Shaheen Miro: But when I wake up from that, I don't feel like I've lost time. I feel like something has happened in the positive versus if you go on a binge and you're out drinking all night long, the next day you probably don't feel like anything's resolved. And so, I think checking in with yourself and asking, how does this make me feel, is really an important part of it as well. Andrew McGregor: How do we feel when we're starting it? How do we feel when we're in it? How do we feel afterwards? Because it might feel great, speaking from personal experience, to grab that bucket of ice cream and to eat that bucket of ice cream, and then it might feel crappy afterwards. And so, I think that there's that just monitoring of the whole situation. Eating two liters of ice cream is not a great coping mechanism for me, and so I no longer engage that. But that doesn't mean that I won't buy myself other things or engage in other ways like that, right? Theresa Reed: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Shaheen Miro: I think that's a beautiful... just continue... Really, it all comes down to connecting with yourself. I think, in a lot of ways, we just don't live in a world that really advocates for people to know how they feel and to connect with themselves, and to take care of themselves. We're really taught to be out here in the world doing things, competing with things, keeping up with things. I think it can be really toxic. Shaheen Miro: Actually, I had a conversation recently about how I think that... I love the idea of self-care, but I think that this concept of wholeness is the new idea of perfection. I think that self-care, and spirituality, and self-work, and healing work isn't about becoming whole or fixed or better. It's about really just connecting with and having a relationship with yourself so that you know where you are in every moment, situation, or experience. And then, that way, you can make choices or you can have boundaries. That's how you empower yourself. It's not always easy, but that's why it's a practice. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. I think you've just summed it up perfectly. Theresa Reed: Absolutely. Andrew McGregor: So, maybe that's a great place to leave it. I'm going to say, when you listen to this, rewind and listen to what Shaheen said a couple of times because I think that's just really a delightful and perfect way to encapsulate it. Obviously, you folks have a lovely book. I think people should check it, called Tarot for Troubled Times. Shaheen, where do people find you if they want to come be in your orbits online? Shaheen Miro: You can find me at my website, which is shaheenmiroinsights.com. Or you can visit me on Instagram, which my handle is Shaheenthedream, and that's one of my favorite places to hang out and do all sorts of magical things over there. And on Facebook and Twitter. So, Shaheen Miro, there's only one of me out there. Andrew McGregor: Perfect. Theresa, at The Tarot Lady everywhere? Theresa Reed: Yup, thetarotlady.com, and The Tarot Lady is my handle on all my social media things. Andrew McGregor: Beautiful. Well, thank you both for making time today. I super appreciate it. It's been- Shaheen Miro: Thank you. Andrew McGregor: ... as delightful as I was hoping. Theresa Reed: Thank you for having us. Andrew McGregor: Of course.

Hey folks. Toni and I talk a lot about connecting and grounding, our lives as readers, the role of science and mystery in this process, and Toni's ideas of the Void! This one goes deep so buckle in for the ride.  Be sure to check out the Patreon bonus too for supporters which includes approaches to experiencing the state of voidness we talk about in the episode.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. Catch Toni on Facebook here or through their website here.  As always Andrew is here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription Andrew McGregor: Welcome to another episode of the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here today with Toni Puhle. And I met Toni at Readers Studio, which is a big card reader convention event in New York City in the spring every year, and I really enjoyed their approach to working with the cards, because unlike some of the more maybe popular stuff that I was running into or had been running into, Toni is deep into the fortune-telling side, deep into the sort of more European practices and decks like Lenormand and other things that have been going on for a long time, but for some reason never really gained their popularity in North America, but have been doing so in the last number of years. So for those who don't know who you are, Toni, why don't you give us a quick introduction? Toni Puhle: I am Toni, I'm also known as the Card Geek on social media and founder of the World Divination Association. I teach systems, I teach students around the world how to to read systems like Kipper cards, gypsy cards, and also Lenormand and how to go back to basics and do the predictive-style reads of the old-fashioned fortune tellers. On top of that I teach the spiritual side of life, such as pendulum dowsing, pendulum healing, also symbol healing, all kinds of courses that I have through my years learned and what I ... I tend to teach what is important to me or important to me as a person, and I am a practicing Hoʻoponopono teacher, and if you mix all that in together with a super practical person who loves theoretical physics, who loves the theory of everything and try to break my brain daily on quantum physics, quantum field theory, and how we can actually explain all this amazing spiritual stuff we are doing, but in a super practical way. Toni Puhle: And then if you throw in some Marvel characters and generally a whole heap of superheroes, you've got a rounded version of who I am. I'm from the UK, you can tell by the tone, but I'm currently living in Munich, Germany, so speaking German and English. So if I do lose a word as we're talking, it's probably because my mind is in German mode. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), totally fair. Well I'll just remind you and you can be like "Oh yeah, yeah, English." Toni Puhle: Exactly. Andrew McGregor: Okay, so very important question. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Current favorite Marvel character? Toni Puhle: Oh, I have so many, I can't choose one. I love Dr. Strange, I love Thor. Iron Man is my all time favorite and- Andrew McGregor: Of course. Toni Puhle: ... that will never change. Andrew McGregor: Yes. Spoiler alert, he saves the world. Toni Puhle: And I also love Loki, I like both sides of the coin in Marvel. Andrew McGregor: Nice. Yeah, Marvel stuff gets a lot of play around my house. Toni Puhle: I also have two boys and I've pushed them in that direction so I can actually watch more. Andrew McGregor: For sure. Well that's your job as a parent, right? Toni Puhle: Exactly. Andrew McGregor: I remember there was a time probably around when my kids started being like five and six where I was like "How about we not watch that, how about we try this instead? Hey look at this Spider-Man thing, hey look at Scooby Doo, these are great." Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: As opposed to some of the other stuff where you're just like, "If I have to listen to that again my head's just going to melt right out of my ears, I can't deal with it," so ... Toni Puhle: I absolutely love going back with the kids as well, because Lloyd, my eldest, he is sort of a retro kid, he loves to go back to what I used to watch as a kid and then talk through it with me. And we talk daily on the way to school, we talk daily about the theories of Marvel and who or what movies are coming out next and the properties of each superhero and how we would use that property if we had it in our lives, and I think that's also a spiritual side to life where you also consider what you would do if you could. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, well, and I think that that's one of the parts of magic, right? What would we do if we could, and then how can we? Toni Puhle: Yes. And that's also throwing the physics in there, because there is the practical sense to it as well, is there any way we can explain how we could possibly do that in the future? Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. My eldest, we always have these conversations after stuff, like the Ant-Man movie where they end up in the "quantum realm," right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: And my eldest is just like "That's not how it works, that's not even a thing. They just made that up so it'd look good in the movie." Toni Puhle: But I love it that she thinks that. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, for sure, right? And they really, it was one of the things that when they started homeschooling, they went to the library and one of the first books they checked out was Quantum Particle Theory. Toni Puhle: Amazing. Andrew McGregor: I was just like "That's awesome. You're 10 and that's what you want to read, great." Rock on. Toni Puhle: Amazing. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), for sure. So maybe let's start with this. Hoʻoponopono, what is it? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: It's a lovely-sounding word, what does it mean and what's it about? Toni Puhle: It is. It's actually quite misunderstood, it's called the art of forgiveness. It comes from Hawaii, and I actually learned about it probably eight years ago, maybe more. And I started doing the prayer, and the prayer is quite simple. "I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you." And like most people who start with Hoʻoponopono, at the beginning I thought I was sending people into balloons or bubbles and light and letting them go into the distance, the art of forgiving other people. Toni Puhle: But actually when I researched it and started living the Hoʻoponopono prayer, it is about taking responsibility for our actions right now in this moment in time. It's a belief system that we are all one, the collective consciousness if you like, the return to zero, the null state at which we are born in spirit, and then returning to that. Because everything that's incoming these days, all this information, social media especially, everything that's incoming is all something that we deal with, we react to something, and they're actually only physical things in the physical human existence, but if we return or if we can find a way to return to our nullness, our voidness, then we don't need to react. The need has gone, and you react in a very different way than you would have before. You may act angry or you may act hurt. We're taking responsibility for any problem that arises and we're saying "Okay, we're here and we send the prayer up to this nullness, this void." Toni Puhle: Some people will call it God, other people will call it void, but you send your prayer up and you are taking responsibility for your part of returning to void. And the more we cleanse, the more we return to void. Cleanse is just saying the prayer, technically. More you return to void, and the more even and more neutral you are as a person, I had times where I would have outbursts, et cetera. If I'm in the car and somebody had annoyed me while driving, I was not the calmest person. And it was when I realized that I actually needed to sort me out first, and that's where Hoʻoponopono really sent me on the path of accepting responsibility for me. Andrew McGregor: I think it's so important, right? I think that we all need to find that understanding of where we are and what we're responsible for and what we control, and all of those things in a way that allows us to be freer to be in the moment, maybe is a good way to put it. Toni Puhle: Yeah, exactly. And I think also, there is this part of me that does want to break my brain and learn as much as possible, but it's also important to filter out which bit of that learning is important for now. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, for sure. Toni Puhle: And taking responsibility for learning the right parts for you, and also taking responsibility to accept that you don't know everything. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, and I think that my question for you then is, right, so if you're returning to null and to void, or whatever we want to call those things, where do you exist in that? What are you in that? Toni Puhle: I am null and void. I am a part of the void. It's not commonly accepted, and the physics world don't like to hear it, but I strongly believe that quantum field theory will give us more information on the null state, more information on the void state. They call it a field, I call it a void. And I am part of that void, as we all are. My human existence is completely separate to that void at times, when I lose sight of who I really am. But then the ... Sorry, go ahead. Andrew McGregor: Well, so are you nothing, then? Are you nobody? Are you just that void state? Toni Puhle: No, I am- Andrew McGregor: Where's the part of you that is driven to start this World Divination Association? That doesn't sound very null or void. What's that distinction? Toni Puhle: The distinction is that when you are in null or void, that is when the inspiration comes in. That's when the information comes in that is useful. We're so used to hearing white noise all the time that we can't actually hear, null or void may be the wrong word for it, but we can't actually hear the information that is important. So until I enter my state of null or void, the information that's coming out of me may not be the best information for everybody else. Toni Puhle: And the WDA was a spark of inspiration. The Kipper book I wrote was something that came to me and I had to do it and I had to do it immediately. And it feels like a drive, and I use the word void because I can't explain it, in my psychic development courses, I can't explain it in any other way than your head has to be empty. There has to be no external information coming in except that spark from above or except that message, if you want to call it a message. So the returning to void is more of a state than a being. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, it reminds me of the idea that we need to just find that deep, deep silence, right? Toni Puhle: Yeah. Andrew McGregor: And we don't just mean, by deep silence we don't just necessarily mean stop thinking, but actually- Toni Puhle: No. Andrew McGregor: ... stop identifying with anything, right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: You know, and there's a meditation that I often do with people where it's like, you go through and sort of dissociate from your body, dissociate from your emotions, dissociate- Toni Puhle: Exactly that. Andrew McGregor: ... from your thinking, and your memories and so on and so on and so on, dissociate from the world, and then you get to a place where there's something left. And it's- Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: ... definitely you. Toni Puhle: That's you, that's what I call void. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Toni Puhle: Personally, and I think people who have or suffer with depression actually understand that feeling a lot better without even realizing it than people who don't. So I think depression has a lot to do with spirituality or where we are on our spiritual journey, and that emptiness isn't ... Sometimes a horrible feeling if you aren't used to it, it is an emptiness, like you say. And there's something leftover, but you're not sure what. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, I mean, it can be that long Dark Night of the Soul piece, right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Like who wrote that, St. John of the Cross? There's a book on that, right? And that place where it's like, you find despair so that you can find the light. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: But I think that that's one of those touchy areas where it's like, sometimes that's true. Sometimes this world just sucks, right? Or biology or whatever- Toni Puhle: Sometimes life just sucks. Andrew McGregor: ... and so there are lots of ways to look at that. So if you're listening to this and that doesn't feel helpful to you, just [crosstalk 00:15:08]- Toni Puhle: No, this is true. Andrew McGregor: ... It's a particular kind of relationship to that for sure, in the same way that shamanic sickness or near-death experience for some people and in certain situations can really open up to a similar kind of thing or other kinds of experiences. It doesn't mean that everything is that way. But yeah, for sure. Toni Puhle: No. And like I said before, I think we have to accept that we don't know everything. Andrew McGregor: For sure, right? Toni Puhle: Whatever we talk about, we can talk about until the cows come home, but at the end of the day we can't prove it. Andrew McGregor: No, for sure. Well, the proof is in the practice, I think, right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Is it helpful, is it getting me somewhere, is it helping me move forward? Am I making real change or sustaining the life that I have that I want? I mean I think that to me those are the, the longer I journey on a path with divination and magic and other things, those become the real measures of what seems helpful or important. Toni Puhle: That's very true, and for one person it'll be different to another person's journey. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), for sure. For sure. So how did you find Hoʻoponopono living in Germany, or maybe you found it while you were in the UK? Did you visit Hawaii, did someone bring it to you, how did it show up in your [crosstalk 00:16:35]- Toni Puhle: No, like most things in life, it turned up on my doorstep. I think the paths or the routes that we go down just happen to either turn up or you've made a cosmic order for a certain path to go on, and they show up at your door. And honestly, when I first started reading about it, I used it as a coping mechanism at the time. And it was shortly after I had my first boy, Lloyd, and I think it was more of a getting through the day coping method, and I didn't truly understand it as a lifestyle until recently. Andrew McGregor: ... Mm-hmm (affirmative). Toni Puhle: So it was, like everything, it showed up. Andrew McGregor: Well, and I think that spiritual paths are often like that, right? Toni Puhle: Yeah. Andrew McGregor: They take us where we need to go, not necessarily [crosstalk 00:17:51]- Toni Puhle: Whether we want to or not. Andrew McGregor: ... whether we expect it or not, right? Toni Puhle: Exactly. Andrew McGregor: Like even when we grow up around stuff, I think it's always difficult to truly understand what's going on in someone else's experience, and so as we become a practitioner or a leader or teacher or whatever, it all starts to change and grow and we grow through that too, right? Toni Puhle: The reason I like Hoʻoponopono for that is because you aren't projecting your ideas on anybody else. The taking responsibility yourself means that you look at the person who's sat opposite you and you aren't seeing them through your own experience, you are seeing them through a, I'll use void again, through a void experience where there are no expectations or no preconceived ideas. And you don't actually need to understand their journey, but you can still play a part in it. Andrew McGregor: I think that's actually a really interesting point, too. I find when I'm reading for people, there's a sort of idea that people put towards me that I understand everything about them, or even everything that I'm saying, right? And sometimes, there are times where I have a deep level of understanding about it, and then there are times where a peculiar phrase that I wouldn't normally use comes out, or I use a metaphor that I don't remember ever using before. And there's something in that process that emerges that makes a ton of sense to them, but to me I'm kind of like, if someone asks I'm like "I don't know, I just said it. I was just doing the work and letting the work come through me," right? Toni Puhle: I presume also that you forget those reads very quickly afterwards as well, because you've probably passed on the message that needed to be passed on, and it didn't have to become a part of you. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), for sure. I forget a lot of readings. Toni Puhle: I do too. Andrew McGregor: It's too hard to hold onto them, it's like, I'm just going to just be super loose about this and let it go, and then- Toni Puhle: I think that's the only way when you do regular readings. Andrew McGregor: ... Mm-hmm (affirmative), for sure. Okay. So on one side we got the void, and on the other side we've got time, space, and prediction. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Right? What's the relationship? For you. Or if you want to share some math or something. Toni Puhle: I have a super dodgy relationship with predictions and fortune-telling, et cetera, because while I do have this side of void and spiritualism, et cetera, I have this side where I use systems, and I actually use systems for a reason. And I probably haven't shared this many places, but I use systems so I don't have to channel. When I channel, I don't ... I can do it all day long if I want to, but I have built up barriers through the years to stop the channeling happening, because I am more comfortable passing on a predictive read and a fortune-telling read when it's clear in the cards. Toni Puhle: I think this is this duality within me that I need proof, and the physics side of Toni, and then the void side of me that is letting loose and letting everything happen. So I have this two sides of my relationship with cards and spirit that at times I struggle with, personally, but that's because my physic hat comes on one day and I think "Oh my goodness, how can I tell them that that's going to happen when the only proof I have is a system in front of me?" But I do it anyway, because that's part of being a fortune-teller and part of being a predictive reader. And when I get emails back saying how wonderful and it's amazing that you will predict, because I think a lot of readers these days don't want to predict, they want to use it as a psychological tool or some kind of tool for making people feel better, which is awesome of that's the root or aura person that you are. Toni Puhle: I'm not that person, I want to know what's going to happen next week when I go to the shop down the corner. I'm quite simple, a quite simple person. I want to know if I'm, for example, moving house this year. I want to know where my journey is going and I want the building blocks along the way. I want to see exactly what's happening. So I do the predictive side of it, and I do have my void side of it where I will channel and I will bring in messages, but I prefer the systems because it's in black and white in front of you, and that's probably the proof that I require for my physics hat person. I require the proof of the system in front of me. Andrew McGregor: I think that looking for evidence or corroboration in what you're doing is one of the most important parts of doing divination. When I'm reading cards for people, I'm pointing at the cards and I'm saying "Look here, you can see it yourself. Look at what this person's doing. This is you, this is this." When Carrie and I teach mediumship through charm casting, right? We're looking for that corroboration. It's like, well, okay, you want to speak to your grandmother, it's like, "Oh, here's the gardening tool, me and my gran used to spend all our time out back puttering with the flower pots." It's like, okay, now we've got some corroboration, right? Now we've got some evidence. Toni Puhle: Exactly that. Andrew McGregor: And I think that channeling and open receiving messages is great too, and there can be evidence in that process as well. Toni Puhle: There can be. Andrew McGregor: Depending on who you're working with and how that's coming, but yeah, where there's no evidence, where there's no relationship. Something lovely might be going on there, but I don't actually know and understand what that is, and therefore I'm skeptical. Toni Puhle: Exactly. I do teach, I can't say I don't do it. I teach automatic writing, I teach all the qualities of becoming a great medium, or some people want to call a great psychic, for the predictive reads. But I think it's super important for that corroboration, but I also think it's important to have a process that you go down for that. So that yes, I do have information coming in, but I make sure that information is coming in when I'm in void. I'm very much controlling my environment and myself so that I have the physics me who is in human existence and controlling it, but then the other side, when I am in void. So I am controlling when I am entering void, and I can do a very practical and physics-minded predictive read using systems, because it's all there in front of you. Andrew McGregor: So when you're channeling, right, what are you channeling? Nothing? The void? Something else? Toni Puhle: No, no, sorry. The void that I am in is my free space for messages and for spirit, for ancestors, for any form of fae, garden people, any elementals is probably the better word, or other species. So the void is creating the place for me to do that, it's creating a null zero in me. It's basically my spirit, but not using the words. Andrew McGregor: Right. Toni Puhle: It's my free spirit and my free place for people, or people is probably the wrong word, for spirit to come in and give me the information that I need. Andrew McGregor: Sure. Entities, right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Yes. Although some people get nervous with that word, I think it's the best word, to be honest. Because it implies an autonomy that some other words that people choose sometimes get rid of, right? Toni Puhle: I think the problem with me is that I'm always looking for the right word. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Toni Puhle: And maybe I like void, it's a word that makes sense to me. It doesn't necessarily make sense to anybody else, but it's a word that I've given it that actually makes sense in my existence. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. I mean I think that it makes total sense, right? I think of it this way. When I'm going to work or channel for people, I center myself in a really sort of deep, compassionate place ... Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: And I open up myself to what wants to come through, right? And people always like "Well how do you read the cards?" Or "How do you do whatever?" I'm like "Well, it's psychic, it's ancestors, it's my guide, it's psychology." Toni Puhle: It happens. Andrew McGregor: It's my 30-odd years of study, it's blah blah blah, and it's like, I don't seek to control anything around that. I just sort of point it towards the process, right? Toni Puhle: Yeah, it's more like- Andrew McGregor: And then what needs to emerge emerges. Toni Puhle: ... preparing the place, yeah. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, and it's not about deciding ahead of time, at least for me, well, this is going to be where we're going to be really strictly this way, because I only read one system of cards. All I work with is Marseilles cards, so I don't do anything else with people in general. But one of the things that I love about that deck is that for me, it also is, to steal your word, a void space, right? To me the beauty of the Marseilles is that it will accept all of those things and feed into all of those processes in a way that personally I find other decks harder to hold that energy, because they're more deliberately specific. Toni Puhle: Yeah, and I think we, you said a really nice thing, that we're holing a space for that. And I explain it sometimes like, when we're born we come in with no expectations, no preconceived ideas, and it's like returning to that state. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Toni Puhle: And that's when the information is incoming or the reader incoming or whatever word you want to put it, the entities are incoming. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative), for sure. So we had a lovely heap of questions that kind of came in on Facebook, and if you listen to the podcast and you don't follow me on Facebook, you might want to, because it gives people the opportunity to pose questions that I look over and try and bring some of them anyway to the thing, to the podcast and to the guest. So a some of the questions seem centered around ideas of measuring or discerning or categorizing different things. Somebody was asking about the ghosts or the spirits in their house, somebody was asking about how do we measure their own energy, and other things along those lines. And so I guess what I want to sort of try and summarize that question as a starting point is, how do you discern the qualities of the energy or the entities that are around you? Or when you're working? Toni Puhle: The first thing I do is return to void for me, and return to nothingness so I can sense what's around. So the inside me or the spirit of me can actually feel, I guess feel's the wrong word, there aren't words big enough for that. But when it comes to spirit, there are so many different feelings that come attached to them for me personally, and I explain it like personalities. Andrew McGregor: Yes. Toni Puhle: So you will have people in your life who just rub you up the wrong way, and sometimes a spirit will come in and they'll do exactly that, they will rub you up the wrong way. Then fae, for example, they come in and it's more of a buzzing mosquito type energy that you are dealing with, and the way I discern what's around or even the energy within the environment that I'm in, I bring myself back down, as you say, your centering, but I bring myself down where I can feel what level that energy is at. Toni Puhle: And once I discern what level it's at, whether it's a high vibration or a lower vibration ... I work with pendulums, obviously, the word vibration, obviously I work with vibrational healing as well. And so an entity will come in for me with a vibration, and it is that vibration that I then, I detect it, but then I also assimilate to it, so that my energy can then accept the energy that's incoming or can accept them in order to receive a message or in order to understand why. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And do you categorize them, good and bad? Toni Puhle: I don't categorize them in good or bad, I think there's a fine line between good and bad, and I- Andrew McGregor: But if you're working with the fae, there's no line, there's just chaotic, right? Or whatever, right? Toni Puhle: That's exactly what I- Andrew McGregor: There's no morality, per se. Toni Puhle: ... That's exactly what I teach. And they really don't like me at times, they can be really onerous, the- Andrew McGregor: Sure. Toni Puhle: ... fae, to deal with, and they aren't really fond of me. But I- Andrew McGregor: When you were talking about sort of spirits, I think you said something like spirits in your garden or whatever, right? But the first thought that came to me was the idea, what's the message? "Get off my land." They're like "Why'd you build this crap here? Get out of here. Why isn't it wild?" Toni Puhle: ... I had a problem when I moved in this house at the beginning, because I stepped over some lines in the garden. And my youngest can actually see elementals, and he saw quite a few in the garden who weren't really pleased with our presence. Andrew McGregor: Right. Toni Puhle: But going back to good, bad, dark, light, it's all a different level or a different vibration, and I deal in vibrations rather than what's good or what's bad. If something has a vibration that I am uncomfortable with, it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. I have had higher beings, I don't know what you want to call them, come in who actually, your instant reaction is "Oh my God, what on earth is this?" But it's a being that can help you on your path, not necessarily something who's there to do harm. Andrew McGregor: One of the things that I find myself more and more interested in when I'm talking to people around this kind of work these days is people are very focused on what is the message, right? Toni Puhle: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew McGregor: Which is 100% understandable. But I'm actually always really curious about why this is going on. Especially if it's a more negative, for that person, experience, right? I'm like "Well, that's cool that this thing," or uncool or unpleasant or whatever it is, right, "That's interesting that there's this thing happening, and you're having an unpleasant experience with it," and certainly we can deal with that, there are plenty of ways to resolve that. Andrew McGregor: But what I'm most interested in, because I'm like, "Why is that happening? What's the mechanism that's causing that to occur?" Because these things, they're not random. It's very rare that a person strolls down the street and acquires a random thing, if people walk down the street and acquire a random thing, it's because of something in their energy that permits that or encourages that. Toni Puhle: Yeah. Andrew McGregor: But they're also not necessarily destined in the way that people also talk about that, right? People are like "Well, it just had to be that this thing showed up at this time to make this happen." It's like maybe, possibly, but often there are other reasons at play. So I'm always really fascinated at sort of the mechanisms of why that happened, why has it happened now, what are the situations that brought this about? It's like your physics mind, right? It's my sleuth mind, I'm like "Okay" ... Toni Puhle: What I don't understand is why everybody thinks there's always a message, or why they always have to be sent to the light. There's instant reaction, "Oh, we need to get rid of them." And again, going back to my beliefs in quantum physics, the field theory, I really think it has something to do with fields, and the filed in which spirit are, the field in which we are, coexisting somehow. I obviously can't explain it until a good physicist pulls his finger out, but I did actually write into a podcast and ask one of these CERN physicists why or how we can explain this quantum entanglement and whether that could explain me doing something and then it having a ripple effect at your end, for example. They answered, but they don't know the answer. Andrew McGregor: For sure. Toni Puhle: So I want to know why. I'm like you, I don't necessarily need to hear a message. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. I think that this idea of messages and the universe constantly talking to us and so on, it is and it isn't, but I think that it's, why would it be different than all the input of ... I live in Toronto, I live in a very big, metropolitan center, right? There's a constant input of information, right? Toni Puhle: Yes, that's exactly it. Andrew McGregor: 99.99% of it is noise. Toni Puhle: That's exactly it. Andrew McGregor: Some days 100% of it is noise. Toni Puhle: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew McGregor: It's not for me- Toni Puhle: That's right. Andrew McGregor: ... I'm just around and it's happening. Toni Puhle: And that's where Hoʻopo comes back in again, because it is that white noise, that constant white noise. And whether it's white noise from spirits or white noise on the physical level of life, it is still white noise. And only when we are free of all that constant information can we actually hear what we need to hear. Andrew McGregor: Mm-hmm (affirmative). For sure, right? So a lot of the questions, the other thing here was this question, right, or this idea of intention in the questions. A lot of questions that sort of centered around how intentions impact readings, how does being clear about intention affect the process, so on and so on. How does, for you, right, so the void state is, sounds like a very neutral state, right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: You're not actively generating anything, because you want to sort of be- Toni Puhle: Received. Andrew McGregor: ... be present, and/or receive, right? Toni Puhle: Mm-hmm (affirmative), true. Andrew McGregor: So what's the active component of that, what's the intention component around your practice or your life in that? Toni Puhle: I teach to nail down intention so far so as if you were a lawyer. Andrew McGregor: Uh-huh (affirmative). Toni Puhle: So I am a huge Judge Judy fan, and I will watch her just to see how she nails down people so they can't give a squiffy answer. But the reason I do that is not because of going against void or anything like that, it's because you can't go wrong. If you have asked a clear question, you can expect what kind of answer. So when you are learning to read cards, when you are learning to do anything, if you are clear in your intention, it's for you only, it's you that wants the answer. So you are doing it for yourself to make sure that there is not an inch of leverage in the cards and their interpretation so that you can be 100% sure that you've nailed that predictive read. Because if your intention is skewy in the first place, it's for your mind only. How can your mind be understanding an answer if it hasn't been clear on what it's asking? Andrew McGregor: So number one, go watch Judge Judy everybody, get yourself an education. Toni Puhle: Yeah, exactly. Andrew McGregor: I love it. There are lots of things that are ... I learn from so many different places. And I remember way back in the sort of newsless days of the internet, I was on this Thelemic group and there was this person there who, I don't know, they had a PhD in something or other, and all they would do though was they would just read people's posts, and then explain the logical fallacy in their statement, right? Toni Puhle: Okay. Andrew McGregor: And I spent a long time reading a lot of posts from this person, and taking notes, literally, I'd be like "Oh, that's a neat one, what's that one? That's a neat one, what's that? Oh look, this is where I do that," until I started seeing them in the rest of my life, the logical fallacies. Because we think that we are, it's easy to feel clear, it's easy to think that we know what we're asking or how we're asking it, right? Toni Puhle: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew McGregor: But it's so woodgy-woodgy in our brains, like it's not as crystal clear as we think at all. Toni Puhle: I also think, too, because I speak, well, three languages, I think when you are a language-speaker you understand the nuances in language a lot more than somebody who is just a pure English speaker. That does not bemean in any way, I just mean you understand that there aren't words that exactly incorporate the meaning of what you're trying to intend or come across with. Andrew McGregor: For sure. Toni Puhle: So what our intention is may not be clear to somebody who's sat next to us, which means, in turn, it may not be clear when we lay the cards. So if we learn how to formulate our language as if it were a legal document, then you are covering all the bases to make sure that you have clarity when it comes to the answer. Andrew McGregor: That makes a ton of sense to me. It reminds me of, there's an author called Milan Kundera, wrote a book called The Unbearable Lightness of Being, but they wrote other books, I can't remember the specific ones now. But a lot of their books sort of start with this thing, they're like "Well, if you spoke Czech, there's this word. And this word kind of means this." And then the whole story is an explanation of that, and when they circle back a the end of the book and be like "See? Blah. This word." Toni Puhle: Yeah. Well I've noticed it most in speaking German, obviously. They will speak English with a different nuance than I will speak German. There will be the same words when you look at them in the dictionary, but they mean different things, they feel different. So when you say one word in English and you say the translation in German, it will feel different, and that means the message is already on a different level. Andrew McGregor: No, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So intention as clarity of question, right? Toni Puhle: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yes. Andrew McGregor: Intention as clarify of self around question. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: And Judge Judy will teach us the way. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: I feel like we need to make some saint candles for Judge Judy now. "Please Judge Judy, give me the clarity to ask a solid question and get a solid answer." Toni Puhle: I watch her just so I can see how she nails them down. Andrew McGregor: For sure, right? And I think that that's such an interesting and helpful process. When I read for people, there's definitely these times where they ask this question and I'm like "So what I hear in your question is that you want me to tell you that everything's going to be okay." And then they're like "Well, maybe." I'm like "Well, that's 100% fair. Welcome to being human, we all have that. But also if we open the cards, I can't tell you what we're going to see." Toni Puhle: I think it's- Andrew McGregor: We're going to see what we see. Toni Puhle: ... similar to, I have a few pet hates. They're not really hates at all, but there are questions that I think a newbie who is reading shouldn't use at the beginning, because it harms their future predictive reads. For example, "Should I do something?" Andrew McGregor: Yes. Toni Puhle: Who is to say whether you should or you shouldn't? Who is spirit to decide what you should or shouldn't do? Andrew McGregor: Well, I have an idea about that. Toni Puhle: Go ahead. Andrew McGregor: So I actually love that question. Toni Puhle: Really? Andrew McGregor: Yes. Right? But, I love that question because of my religious practice. So as a priest in the Lucumi tradition, in Afro-Cuban lineage who has studied and practices divination within that system and so on, the idea of should we do this thing rests in the beliefs that we have some kind of destiny, that we're not here with an open-ended clean slate of everything that anything could be on target, but only certain parts of the buffet are actually in a real deep level of alignment with who we are and why we chose to incarnate at this time. Andrew McGregor: So for me, the should question, especially in the religious context, is one that makes a bunch of sense to me, because I feel like there are things that at certain decisions we should and shouldn't do if we want to stay in alignment with that actual purpose. Toni Puhle: But is that not in line with your own guide and already having the relationship and the knowledge of your guides, who they are, who your ancestors are, and this long learning process of understanding who they are and that they are working in your best interest, rather than somebody who's coming to the table and asking the "Should I?" question and not knowing who they are requesting that information from. Andrew McGregor: I mean I think it really depends on what the nature of the should is, or the nature of that question is. I was just talking about this with my elder recently, because we were talking about the context in which me making sure that I'm divining about stuff makes sense for me in the coming year, because of what came out in the reading. And it makes sense for me to think about all those things, it makes sense for me to be clear about them. It makes a ton of sense to not use the should question as a scapegoat or permission or abdication of control ... Toni Puhle: Yeah, exactly that, mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew McGregor: But it comes to a place where there are things that are beyond knowing, we butt up against that mystery, and does it make sense for me to make this change in my business in a certain direction? And I have a bunch of ideas- Toni Puhle: But you see, that's a slight nuance in question, asking whether it makes sense to do something rather than asking for the permission to do something. Andrew McGregor: ... I don't think of should ... I think that some people use should questions- Toni Puhle: Maybe it's a language thing again. Andrew McGregor: ... Well, I think some people use should questions as point of permission, right? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: "Should I break up with Betty?" Look, if you don't like Betty, break up with Betty. Toni Puhle: Exactly. Andrew McGregor: Just get over it. If you're already asking that question, there's something you need to figure out there and the cards don't need to tell you that. But I think that there are lots of questions that, "Should I do this thing?" We could phrase them in different ways, "Is this in alignment with my true self to do this?" So on, right? "Is this the time for this to happen?" But for me should, and by the time I get to a should question, it's only those things. It's only the level of question. Toni Puhle: Well that's perfect for me as long as you have that understanding already. I think it's coming to the table and asking permission to do something that I ... The only reason I see it as an issue in new readers is because they see it as a strict yes or no, "Yes you should," "No, you shouldn't." And there is, then, in the answer, it's often unclear, then, to a new reader, whether the cards are positive 100% yes or whether they are a nuance of yes, or whether they are a strict no. And I think the intention when they sit down to ask those questions when starting colors the read, then, afterwards with their own emotional projection or on ... It allows a looser read, or allows emotions to come in. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. I'm definitely with you. If you're going to ask a question like that, there's no space for ambiguity- Toni Puhle: No. Andrew McGregor: ... in the question, in the process. There's no space for open-endedness. It's like look, I'm going to do this or I'm not. Am I going to do it? Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Does it make sense, yes or no? And that's where diligence and discipline ... Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: In the reading of the cards. Because for me it's like, if I'm going to ask a yes or no question, I'm only going to read the cards in a certain way. I might go do another spread if I want other information. Toni Puhle: That is it, exactly that. Andrew McGregor: But I'm like, that's it. Toni Puhle: And actually, in my book, I used the yes and no question, which uses the least cards in the deck, I did it as an advanced spread in the back of the book for the reason that they have to, or readers have to understand that there is a difference in the way that you're reading. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. And just to pull it full circle, maybe, I think that your capacity, anyone's capacity to be good at those kinds of questions rests on your ability to be clear about what you're asking and your ability to be centered in what you would call the void space. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: Right, or what I would call [crosstalk 00:54:23] different- Toni Puhle: Yes to that. Andrew McGregor: ... because if you can do those two things, then you can rocket out with that stuff. Toni Puhle: 100%. Andrew McGregor: But if you can't do those things, then it's like, you're moving towards my metaphor of how Ouija boards work for people who don't have a lot of experience with spirits, right? It's like, pick the busiest town square that you got, go there, put on a blindfold, and then out loud ask for an answer to your question. Wait for somebody to tell you, and then wait a while and leave, never knowing who that was. Who was that person? Do they have something valuable to add? Toni Puhle: It's also similar to dowsing, because we all can influence the outcome of dowsing by our own experiences, and carrying that into the question. Andrew McGregor: Yep, yep. And our subconscious and shadow have direct control to our nervous system, so therefore it's pretty easy for unresolved stuff to make its way there too, right? Toni Puhle: Exactly. Andrew McGregor: Yeah. Toni Puhle: Yes. Andrew McGregor: So it's been great chatting with you today, but I think we're kind of hitting the point where we should start wrapping this up though, even though I think I could sit and chat with you all day. It's going to just sound like this "I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you." Toni Puhle: I agree. Andrew McGregor: "I agree with you." Toni Puhle: Definitely. Andrew McGregor: So people should definitely be following you and checking out where you're at and stuff. Where should they come? Where's the best place for people to find you on the internets? Toni Puhle: I'm all over social media as @TheCardGeek is my hashtag, and if you look for the World Divination Association, you will find me on most platforms. Andrew McGregor: Excellent. Well thank you so much for taking the time today, and for ... Yeah. Organizing your schedule. Toni Puhle: Thank you for having me. Andrew McGregor: Yeah, my pleasure.

Wald is cofounder and coproducer of Readers Studio, the largest Tarot convention in the US. He is a Tarot teacher, writer, and certified Tarot Grand Master. http://www.TarotSchool.com

On this episode of the “Kooch’s Kosmic Kafe” show, Host Kooch Daniels is LIVE from The Tarot School’s Reader Studio 2019, in NYC! ...Special Guests: Gina Thies, Sheilaa Hite, and Jaymi Elford! Join us a Radio Host for 2019! PsychicTalk.net/Host2019 Courses & Workshops – Check Out: PsychicTalk.net/PsychicU Discover Upcoming Shows at  >>>  www.PsychicTalk.net/Upcoming Connect with us on Facebook  >>>  www.PsychicTalk.net/Facebook Follow Us!  >>>  www.PsychicTalk.net/Twitter

Rose Red and Jaymi talk about where they've been and what is going on. We geek out about Readers Studio, their East Coast adventures, and the new decks coming out in the next few months from Llewellyn and Kickstarter.  Decks We Gushed Over Kickstarter:Way of the Panda Tarothttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fablesden/way-of-the-panda-tarotSigil Arcanum Tarothttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/taylorbell/sigil-arcanum-tarot-a-symbolic-journey/Taroetry Bookhttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/taroetry/taroetry-a-poetic-guide-to-the-tarotQuerent: A Tarot-based/focused Role Playing Game (RPG)https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fatbirdstudios/querent-the-cartomancers-tome78 Tarot Elementalhttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kayti/78-tarot-elemental-limited-edition-deck-and-bookTrue Black Tarot (Jaymi received her copy just after recording this episode)https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/61940810/true-black-the-tarot-deckLlewellyn:Rackham Tarot https://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738762142Pre-Raphaelite Tarothttps://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738762135Otherkin Tarothttps://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738758732Silver Witchcraft Tarothttps://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738762647In Between Tarothttps://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738763521Your Tarot Court by Ethony Dawnhttps://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738758657

Jaymi and Rose catch up after the holidays. So much good divination goodness to come in 2019. In the first 6 months, they'll be attending (and teaching at some) PantheaCon, Northwest Tarot Symposium (NWTS), and the Readers Studio. Jaymi kicks off her Tarot Inspired Life book tour in Seattle with a signing at the ALA Midwinter Conference. She'll be adding more dates for signings and readings as her schedule allows. Check her book companion site at www.tarotinspiredlife.com for all the gritty details. Rose is excited to be going to all the conventions and for getting to delve deeper into her A Year with our Gods studies with Land Sea Sky Travel. Check out all the links in the show notes! Hope to see you at a convention or o the book tour!

Happy winter holidays everyone! Rose and Jaymi discuss their Yule/Solstice plans and talk about what this time of the year means to them. Rose plans to do some readings, and stay up all night on solstice day. She also will be attending a coven gathering where they swap presents. Rose endorses celebrating the holiday season by buying from local, and small business companies, like Izzy Swanson's etsy store where she got some wonderful incense.  Jaymi still isn't sure what the winter holidays mean to her. She's searching for the balance between all that goes on. Jaymi did get to swap readings on a wonderful solstice spread created by Callie French. In addition to being a wonderful artist (she illustrated the Rana George Lenormand and the 2019 Readers Studio poster), Callie runs the Tarot Bistro page on Facebook. You can read more about what Jaymi's reading said by visiting Inner Compass Tarot. Jaymi also did another Solstice Reading from Joanna Powell Colbert's eNewsletter. You can view this reading on this page.  Both ladies do plan on swapping Solstice readings of their own. They will post pictures and meanings on the Tarot Visions Facebook page.  What Yule/Solstice plans do you have? Please let Rose and Jaymi know by leaving them a comment on the Tarot Visions Facebook page.

Get excited peeps! Readers Studio begins today and Rose Red and Jaymi have spent the past week preparing for their New York adventures. Jaymi focused on her health and did a few facials (pictures on Facebook). Rose tore through her tarot collection to bring her favorite decks, rechecked her packing lists, and made sure it all would fit in her suitcase. And what's this? We brought show favorite, Benebell Wen, to discuss how she prepared for this year's conference. Benebell has the honor of speaking on the big stage Saturday morning. While she wasn't able to discuss her master class, she did take us through her thought process for selecting class materials. We also get sidetracked for a bit on writing and writing styles. Thanks for listening and we look forward to bringing back stories from our trip.(Note: there may be some light cussing in this week's episode.)

Our favorite jet-setting tarotista, Mary K Greer,  takes some time out of her busy schedule to chat with Rose Red and Jaymi. Mary's a very busy instructor in 2018. She'll be teaching at PantheaCon, and at the now sold out Readers Studio in New York. She'll be traveling back to China to teach at least twice more. And she's running a wonderful tour of Britain and Scotland with her “Tarot Magic in Merlin's Britain and Scotland” program. (Sign up by the end of November 2017 to secure your spot!) Mary also gives us many tales about Pamela Coleman Smith, as she is in the process of writing a book with US Games, Inc. about the artist extraordinaire herself. This book is due out in 2018, as well. The girls have decided that Mary is welcome to tell more tales at any time!

Stroll down memory lane with RoseRed and Jaymi as they discuss their recent Readers Studio experiences. We discuss packing habits. Share networking and stories and snippets of knowledge we learned during our wonderful time in NYC.

Rose Red gives us her report from this year's reader's Studio!

Field reporter Jaymi Elford checks in about her time at this year's Readers Studio in New York.  She recounts days and nights of tarot learning, shopping, reading, and other oracular shenanigans. Find out just what happens at the annual gathering of tarot enthusiasts.  

Podcast #24 is hosted by Anastasia and Rose Red (Andrew was studying for mid-terms, and Artemis J. was once again having a case of real life), having a wonderful time with Ruth Ann and Wald Amberstone, founders of The Tarot School and producers of the Readers Studio. Ruth Ann and Wald give us a delightful preview of the amazing and not-to-be missed Readers Studio 2009, featuring James Wanless, Geraldine Amaral, and Rachel Pollack. Spaces are still available, but you should register soon so you don’t miss out!

Podcast #22 is hosted by Anastasia, Rose Red, and Andrew (Artemis J, was once again having a case of real life), Voyager-ing through the Tarot universe with our favorite navigator, James Wanless, Ph.D, Captain Pick-A-Card himself! James talks about upcoming events, including his Voyager Certification Intensive in San Francisco in January 2009, and his travels - his annual Hawaii retreat in March 2009, followed by his Greek Odyssey (also in March!), as well as his appearance at the Readers Studio in May 2009.