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Let’s talk about death, baby From breaking the stigma to understanding the conversations we need to have before we die, beloved broadcaster and advocate Andrew Denton and clinical psychologist Dr Kerrie Noonan dissect everything we should and shouldn’t say about death. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. Featuring interviews with famous faces as well as experts in the space, we uncover what they know about what we can expect. There are hard truths, surprising discoveries, tears and even laughs. Nothing about death is off the table. Andrew Denton is renowned as a producer, comedian and Gold Logie-nominated TV presenter, but for the past decade he has been devoted to a very personal cause. He is the founder of Go Gentle Australia, a charity advocating for better end of life choices that was instrumental in passing voluntary assisted dying (VAD) laws across Australia. Senior clinical psychologist Dr Kerrie Noonan is director of the Death Literacy Institute; director of research, Western NSW Local Health District; and adjunct Associate Professor, Public Health Palliative Care Unit, La Trobe University. For the past 25 years she has been working to create a more death literate society, one where people and communities have the practical know-how needed to plan well and respond to dying, death and grief. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel -- Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: James: Hello, and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine, and this season, we're talking about death. Or, on this episode, why we don't talk about it enough. Death is really easy to talk about, but avoiding the subject just makes things even harder. From breaking the stigma to understanding the conversations we must have before we die, I'll be dissecting everything we should and shouldn't say about death with two fascinating minds. Andrew Denton is the founder of Go Gentle Australia. A charity advocating for better end of life choices, but you probably know him better from so many shows on our TV. And Dr Kerrie Noonan is a senior clinical psychologist and social researcher, determined to increase our death literacy. Kerrie, Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. Do you know one another? Andrew: Yes we do. Yeah. Kerrie: Yeah, along the way. Andrew: We've had a few conversations about death, dying, literacy, all those things. Yeah. James: How did you learn about death? Like when did you, and who did you go to talk to? When did you start thinking about it? Andrew: Well, I think you learn about death the way everybody does, which is you experience it. And the first time it happened to me, I made a documentary about teenagers with cancer, Canteen, the support group, and one of those young men died. And his parents very generously invited me to visit him as he was dying. And that was the first time I actually saw what death can be. And it was, it was very hard to see and then watching my own father die obviously was a profound moment for me because that was an unhappy death. But how I've learned about it since is, I imagine a bit like Kerrie. I've had thousands of hours of conversations with people who are dying and their families and their carers. And, I've learned so much about death I feel I've mastered it and can move on. James: Yeah, true. That's right. Is that, is this what you mean by death literacy, that, that in some ways we just need to be talking about it more? Kerrie: It's, it's talking about it. That, that's one aspect. But it's, it's kind of developing your know-how and being able to put that know-how into practice. So, you can maybe talk about, maybe have some competency in terms of talking or maybe doing one element, related to death and dying. But, when you put it into practice, that's when death literacy kind of really comes to life. It kind of sits, some of the research we've done recently, it's evident that death literacy sits in networks, in-between people, within people, in communities, so it's not just about individuals. James: I suppose I'm wondering about at what point we might have this, or there'd be a difference in death literacy with 20-year-olds than there would be with 80-year-olds, right? Kerrie: Yes, experience changes your death literacy. That's probably the strongest predictor. So we started this research looking at networks of care and how people kind of come together. And so where we're at now is we're looking at what are the predictors and what are the things that we understand so that we can understand more about how to make more death literacy, I guess. So an example, that's your question, well I can give a real example. When my mum was in hospital, we were, we needed someone to help us to move mum from the hospital to home because we wanted to take her home. And we couldn't get the health system or the medical system to do that. So I put an email out, a text message out to my friends who happened to work in the death space. And within an hour we had someone, within two hours, mum was home. And so. That took, you know, that set off a little chain of conversations, emails, texts. And while I was doing that, my brother was getting the medication sorted and other things sorted for my mum. So we really, we utilised, to bring my mum home, we utilised like every bit of knowledge and our networks to do that. James: But you were at the centre of, you know, you, you study this, you're a, you know, an advocate for it, and so you're at the centre of it. You would have a network. I mean, I don't know that I've got the same network. I'd, I could put it out to my friends and they'd go, we could bring wine. Oh, you know, like, I don't know that they'd, I don't know that they'd be that practical. Kerrie: But that's actually helpful too. You need your friends to turn up with wine and, and bread and whatever comforts. So we found that younger people, for example, so we've done two kind of national studies just to kind of demonstrate your point about younger people. Between, 2019, pre COVID, and 2023, we looked at the population and we looked at death literacy and how it changed. And we found that voluntary assisted dying and COVID had an impact on people's death literacy, particularly for the younger people, anyone who's experienced a death, anyone who's been through loss, has higher death literacy than people who haven't. And so, there's lots of things that contribute to that, but, COVID, I think, we're still kind of looking at the data, but certainly voluntary assisted dying because of the way that you need to kind of have conversations, you need to actually reach out to your networks, you need to talk to doctors, you know, there are actually lots of interactions in that that really stretch your skills and, your understanding. James: It's only a few generations back when death was very present in our life. The conversation about voluntary assisted dying has perhaps allowed us to have that conversation again. Have you seen that? Andrew: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, there's, there's a lovely, witty observation that in Victorian times they talked about death all the time and never about sex. And today it's the other way around. It's not that many generations ago where the body would lie in the house and there'd be a viewing in the house. And so it was, it was a more human thing, the way Kerrie's describing her friends helping her mother come home, that's a communal and human thing. And when I talk about voluntary assisted dying, I must and I want to bracket it with palliative care, because really, despite the fact politically they were oppositional during the legislative debate, they're very much on the same end of the spectrum, which is we're all going to die, and the concept of palliative care, which is also the same idea of voluntary assisted dying, is not, ‘Let's get you to the dying bit, but how do you live as well as you can while you are dying?’ And that dying process could be very short or it could be very long, it could be several years. You, usually you can't be really clear. So the whole point as Kerrie said about voluntary assisted dying and palliative care is you talk about these things. And interestingly, I think there's a paralysis around death, and you know, you said, well, my friends wouldn't know what to do, they'd bring wine, as Kerrie said, that's no bad thing. But if you put out a call to your friends to say, I need to move my fridge, somebody's going to say, I've got a ute. James: Yes. Andrew: …your need, perhaps, to leave hospital and go home, that's the same question… James: They might have a ute. Andrew: …It's just, it's just a human question, which is, I need help. And not only do we get paralysed in the face of death and assume that the experts have the answers, but the experts often get paralysed in the face of death. They don't know how to have those conversations either. So one of the things that voluntary assisted dying absolutely has done, and there was a, a geriatrician in Victoria who said to me. He was ashamed to admit that voluntary assisted dying had made him understand how limited his practice had been, in that he had subconsciously only been asking questions of patients that he had an answer to: How's your pain? James: Right. Andrew: I can treat your pain. What are your symptoms? I might be able to treat your symptoms. Whereas what he asks now is, how do you feel? What is life like for you? That's a much more holistic question. What is it that you need? If we can't help you with it, maybe someone else can help you with it. So I think it's about transcending that paralysis in the face of death. Which is natural, but the greater group that you can talk with it about, the better. I still remember a woman I met several years ago. And she said to me from the moment her husband was diagnosed with cancer to the moment he died, he refused to talk about it. And the, it was like a sliver of ice stuck in her heart because she was frozen in that too. James: Yeah, yeah. Kerrie: Yeah, and I think what we, what we found in a lot of our research too, Andrew, was that, carers were often, had massive networks that the person who was dying didn't know about… Andrew: Right… Kerrie: …as well. So I think that's, that's the other thing, about some of these conversations is that, once you know that you've got community who's up for the conversation or up for whatever around you that a lot of carers are, can have that access to other people. James: And you mean the person dying doesn't know because they don't ask, unless they're talking about it, then no-one thinks to bring it forward? Is that what you mean? Kerrie: Yeah. I think what happens in that situation is a carer can become quite isolated like the dying person. If they don't want to talk about it, there actually are still practical things to organise. There are still things, where are the passwords? How do you get into the bank account? What bills need paying? Andrew: I'm trying that with my wife all the time and she's not even dying! Kerrie: That's right. They continue but you don't get to have the conversation with the person. Andrew: Actually, Geraldine Brooks, a beautiful author, her husband Tony, who is a friend, he died very suddenly, dropped dead in the street, and he was young, in his early 60s. And she's just written a book about this called Memorial Days, about that whole experience. And that's the strongest piece of practical advice she gives, which is, prepare for your death by helping others. James: Yes. Andrew: Like, leave the passwords, explain how these things work. The best things I've learnt about the idea of preparing for death and thinking about death, actually I'm pretty sure came from some of your literature, Kerrie, which was the idea of an emotional will. And an emotional will is not about, to you James, I'll leave my ute. It's actually about, to you James, I'm going to leave, my favourite city in the world. Limerick in Ireland, and here's some money for you to go there, or to you James, I'm going to leave these five songs, which mean something to me. It's actually about, well this poem, it's about gifting something of spiritual life value as opposed to an object. James: Yeah. Following the, the, the legislation in New South Wales, now pretty much in every state, Andrew, where, what do you see now? What do you see in our society now? What do you see happening? Andrew: Look, there's still the same paralysis and fear about death. I think that's, that's kind of natural. You know, one of the people on our board of Go Gentle is the former federal president of the AMA, who's a neurosurgeon, and he said when his dad was dying in hospital, he was afraid to ask for, you know, more help because he didn't want to be annoying. So, you know, I mean, this is the head of the AMA. To me the big question is not so much, how individual families or individuals respond even though it's very important. To me the big conversation is within the medical professions. And I don't actually say that critically. Because we're all equally struggling with the concept of the abyss. And I think, it is an acknowledged problem in healthcare, of futile care at the end of life. It's giving a 90-year-old a hip replacement, for example, just over-treating. Because of the, I've heard it described as ‘doctor as hero’. You know, we give, we give doctors, quite reasonably, a special place in our society. Because we ask special things of them. But part of that training is, we must win. We must treat. When I was first told this by a doctor in Oregon, when I went there. When they said, oh, we see death as a defeat, I actually laughed. I thought they were joking. I said, it's… James: You know you can't win. He turns up with that scythe at some point. Andrew: So I think there's a much broader conversation about what is dying, and how do we have that conversation with people who are dying. And I think… James: I suppose I just thought, I have had a couple of conversations recently with people who have a relative or parent who has gone through voluntary assisted dying… Andrew: Yes… James: …And what I noticed was the way they talked about it, in a sense, wasn't much different to, oh, we went to Europe. You know, we had a nice trip. Like, it was very normal, the way they said it. They went, I was at my uncle's death yesterday. Andrew: It can be. It can be. You know, dying affects different people differently. There are people who have gone through the voluntary assisted dying process who totally support it and are very glad it's there, but still found the experience traumatic. It's not a silver bullet. James: Right. Andrew: It doesn't, it, it's merciful, and it's peaceful, but it doesn't, it certainly doesn't remove grief, and it doesn't remove, for many people, the unreality of dying. We hear many, many testimonies of families deeply grateful for the way in which they are able to say farewell. And I think that's a very important part of voluntary assisted dying. A genuine ability to say farewell. But people are different. There's one man that insisted, who used voluntary assisted dying, and insisted that he be only with his doctor. And the reason he gave, which I find both beautiful and heartbreaking, he said, ‘I don't want the love of my family holding me back’. So, you know, I always maintain when I talk about this. James: [sigh] I felt the same thing. I did the same thing. I know. You know, huge. Andrew: Whenever I've talked about this, I've always maintained, none of us know how our dying will be. All we know is that it will be hours and hours alone. And I think that's why I struggle with, that philosophy that somehow or other, that, our dying is about society at large or about some universal rule that we might be breaking if we don't do it the right way. James: Kerrie, you know, I sort of want to acknowledge that you've been through death quite recently, that your mother died only a few weeks ago as we're having this conversation. As someone who's then spent their life studying this area and thinking about this area, what have you learned from the death of your mother? Kerrie: It looks similar to what Andrew said before about his colleague, the doctor. Like, well, I went straight to the practical things, didn't I? Like, it's a kick, grief's a kick in the guts, let's face it. Knocks you on your butt. James: And we are very practical in those first weeks, aren't we? At the moment of death and afterwards. Kerrie: Just the other day, when we dropped my daughter off to uni, I went to text my mum, as I would usually do. And text her the photo of her in her dorm. And I think this is, you know, I was really glad of my experience because I just sat there and cried for about five minutes, actually. I just needed to blubber and cry. I could have sucked it up. We could have just, you know, driven on. But actually it was really helpful just to really deeply acknowledge that moment. That was the first time. That I'd experienced that real sense of wanting to, to, communicate with her. Andrew: I hope it won't be the last time you hear her cry about your mum. Kerrie: No, it won't be. It won't be. But when she died, because of the work that we had done, I didn't cry initially. Andrew: Yeah. Kerrie: And this is this individual kind of experience of going through this. I didn't, immediately cry. I felt intense relief for my mum. And so I was just reflecting on that. I was like, ‘Whoa, I'm not crying’. The other thing that is, is on my mind is that it took an ICU doctor on the day that mum… So mum had three MET calls. And if you don't know what a MET call is, and you're listening to this, this is where every registrar, every emergency person on call, runs to the bed of the person who is, who's crashing. James: Right. Kerrie: …and she had three of those. And by the end, I'm glad I wasn't there because I hear that mum was very distressed. James: Right. Kerrie: And it took an ICU doctor to sit down with her and go, what do you want Maureen? James: Yeah. Andrew: Yeah. Kerrie: And mum said, I'm done. And so it didn't matter that I'd done that with the doctors, multiple times, or that she had an advanced care directive, clearly stating, do not give me, treatment that will prolong my life. It didn't matter that all of those things were in place. What mattered, was that ICU doctor who absolutely, compassionately just stopped everything and talked to my mum. And it's a pretty brave thing when your heart is failing and other things are happening in your body to say, no more, I'm done. Because that does, that's a decision about you only have a certain amount of time left in your life then. So, that doctor changed the course of my mum's dying. And, yeah, I'll never forget that. And then the compassion at which she called me to talk with me about what mum had decided. And the checking. The difference – one of the other things that I found – the difference between a doctor with really, like, person-centered communication skills and someone who's focused on getting the job done. They ring and say, ‘Hey, I'm caring for your mum. I'm caring for your person. What do you understand about what's happening?’ James: Right. Right. Kerrie: And every time, they did that… James: …they want to listen to you first, yeah. Kerrie: …Yeah. Every time they did that, it just gave me an opportunity, even though I know this gig, I've talked a hundred times on the other side of that conversation with people, but it just made me realise the just incredible, that empathy, you feel it in your bones on a whole other level when someone is truly going, ‘Tell me, tell me your story, tell me your bit.’ And, that was, that was a big learning and a big reflection as a health professional, as someone who's been there. The other thing, sorry, you cracked that open, didn't you? The other, the other part was, no one asked, me or my brother, about, about our experience, our previous experiences, and who we were, and what we did, and who were these children taking their mum home. My brother's a nurse. I've worked in palliative care for a million years, and it was a really interesting thing having to, like, I just wanted someone to go, Hey, have you done this before? And maybe I'm being a bit biased there because that's something that, because I've got a death literacy lens over things. And I'm always interested in, Hey, what have you done before? Hey, what experiences do you want to bring to this one? What do you know about what you're facing? What do you want to know about next? They were all the questions that I would be asking if I was working with someone. I really wanted someone to ask me those questions. Andrew: In a palliative care setting, you would probably have been asked those questions, you would hope. Kerrie: I hope so. Andrew: In a general hospital, maybe not. I think that speaks to two things, what we're talking about, which is paralysis in the face of death and, a sense of we just treat, we treat, we treat. This is what we do. Everybody's terrified of being accused somehow of not having done enough. So I think there's that. And, the doctor, the ICU doctor you described, that strikes me as a perfect piece of medicine. And it, it absolutely accords with what a beautiful nurse said to me in South Australia some years ago. She was very emotional. She was, she was recording a piece for us about why there should be voluntary assisted dying. It was always instructive to me that the ones that really advocated for it were the nurses, because they're the ones that see the suffering. And she just said, ‘Why can't we do the right thing, human to human?’ And that's why I see this as a multi-generational discussion within the health profession. It's not that people in the health profession aren't humans or don't get that, but it's not how they're trained. And, but I also think it speaks to the pressures on the health system too. Kerrie: Yeah. Andrew: In the same way as we're talking about aged care, even though we have a much healthier health system than, say, America, it's still pressured. And we know, we hear stories from hospitals all the time of, resources that are built but not used or resources that are used but are stretched beyond reason, and so I think it's a reflection of all those things. But there was at times, and I think sometimes we don't talk about this enough, is paternalism in healthcare. Andrew: Can I explain that?! James: Yeah, that's right. Andrew: Sorry. James: Oh yeah, we covered that Kerrie, us blokes know all… Andrew: Please, do go on. Kerrie: Oh, there's a lived experience. [laughter]. Oh, yes, that. Andrew: No, I'm sorry, please do explain. James: …which you ably demonstrated… Kerrie: So, that, yeah, like paternalism, we just don't have a critical kind of conversation about paternalism in healthcare. And there's, you know, there's that difference between really great care. And then, but if you just kind of tip it a little further into ‘Hmm, do you really want to do that? Oh, don't you want to be the daughter, not the carer?’ You know, like there are, there are kind of, there are particular things that happen in healthcare that, that we don't, we aren't critical enough, is what I'm saying. I don't know what the answer is, but I would like the system to be more critical about, about some of those things that perhaps they take for granted a little. And, look, sometimes it would be maybe permission for a family to kind of, yeah, be the daughter. James: Well, even in my experience, my cancer experience in the last year or so, I've now done several talks at doctors conferences and things like that. And what, what sort of strikes me as funny about it is I go, ‘We’re thinking of taking an interest in the patient's perspective, perhaps you'd like to come talk about that?’ Patient's perspective. Is this new? Andrew: You know, I, I went on Q&A, about VAD quite early in my advocacy, which was a terrifying experience, by the way, and, and there was a, another fairly prominent doctor who was strongly in opposition, and I, I completed what I had to say by basically saying, you know, doctors, it's, it's time to listen to your patients. And this doctor, who's a very good writer, wrote this excoriating piece in a magazine afterwards, just accusing me of being patronising towards doctors. And I'm thinking, that's patronising? I mean, the worst example I know of this, there was a, a former AMA official and, they held a debate on this internally in 2016, that I had a link to and I, so I watched it. And he was a, a geriatrician, and a senior doctor. And somebody on the other side of the debate, because he was opposed, had put to him that there's a great public support for this. And he said, and I'm, I'm quoting pretty close to verbatim, he said, ‘That's why we're paid $200,000 a year. We make these decisions.’ And that's, so I think there is significant paternalism. There was another, a female oncologist who wrote a piece in The Australian against these laws, and even though it wasn't her headline, it was what she meant. The headline was, ‘Autonomy, it's not about you’. And you know, going back to what I was saying, there cannot be a more, you-focused experience than your dying. I don't care what your religion tells you, in the end, only you are going there when it happens. James: You've given, is it a decade now, to this? Andrew: More, I think. James: More, you know. Again, I suppose, what's your reflection on that? I sort of feel like I'm framing the question almost, are you glad you did that? You know, is that… Andrew: There are times, and I'm sure Kerrie would agree with this, there are times I think, you know, I've had enough death, thank you very much. Andrew: But I would have to say it's been the most brilliant second act for me after showbusiness, far more meaningful to me. The correspondence I've had and the conversations I've had, have been so privileged, and the gratitude that we as an organisation, Go Gentle, receive from people whose families had the option of voluntary assisted dying is immense. And, so yes, I am glad. And certainly I view this as the real work that I've done, not whatever I may have done in television. Perhaps if I'd won a Logie, I'd feel differently about that. James: I think you peaked at [1980s show] Blah, Blah, Blah, quite frankly! Andrew: Yeah, I think so, and it was all downhill after that first year, exactly! James: Yeah, well, I almost feel like I need to go and have a good cry. It's been, a beautiful discussion. Thank you so much for, uh, sharing it with us here on Life's Booming. Andrew: Can I ask you a question? Before you just wound up, you're getting teary. James: Yeah, yeah. Andrew: What are you feeling? James: I'm taking a deep breath to calm, so I can't talk, not necessarily to squash it. I'm always surprised when it comes up. I, I never quite know when I'm going to get teary. And sometimes it's, it can happen on air, like sometimes if someone starts talking about death or a relative, and I'll be listening to it and I'll suddenly go to speak and go, oh, the emotion's right there, you know. So, I'm not entirely clear. I think I'm moved by Kerrie, and sort of wanting to experience your grief in some ways, deal with that. Or I feel like, I think I'm feeling that you, you holding it in, sort of that, you know, we need to sort of let that, let that go a bit. So, it's interesting. I think I'm moved by your work as well. Look, we have a funny connection over many decades, and to observe you go through, deal with, deal with, you know, to see you transform into doing that work has been quite extraordinary. And I'm probably just contemplating my own death. [laughter] Andrew: And, exactly right, James. And during the height of COVID, quite unexpectedly, a very good, friend of mine, he rang me from Victoria and we knew his wife had pancreatic cancer, which is obviously a very tough diagnosis. And then he said she's chosen VAD and she's going to die in this state. And despite all the thousands of hours spent in that debate to get that law passed in Victoria, which was the first one in Australia, and it was an absolute brutal knife fight of a battle to get that law passed. For some reason, it had never occurred to me that somebody who I knew and loved was going to use this law. James: Yeah, right. Andrew: And I remember, despite everything I knew about it, on the day, Jennifer and I, we got our whisky glasses. We poured a whisky. We lit a candle. But I remember thinking as the clock ticked down to the moment, it felt very unreal to me. But the strong emotion that I felt at the moment, knowledge in the moment of her dying was not that she had died. It was actually about just the richness of life. Oh my god, life is so rich. And that's what I felt. I just felt, wow, life. Kerrie: I think that is what you say there is so deeply important because one of the reluctances around talking about death and dying is not being able to maybe lean into some of that feeling around that richness of life. When we were going through photo albums, there were photos there that, you know, that we'd never really taken notice of before. Damn, we wanted to know about them now. Who were they? Who are these people? Where are they now? It does connect you to life in a very profound way. And all of the messiness of that. And that's, I think, only a great thing. Watching my children, 22 and 17, be with their grandma. We did a very, a simple thing. Put a comb, a brush on the end of her bed. And mum used to love having her hair brushed. And we just said to the kids, just brush her hair, if you want. Andrew: That’s gorgeous… Kerrie: And so that just very simple action just then gave them something to be with her while she was dying. Andrew: Human to human. James: Yeah. Kerrie: Yeah. And my children did that many times, while she was dying. And, and that's when we would sit and talk about what we did with Nanny and things. And we, you know… So it's worth leaning into. I guess that's the other thing. It's worth getting the whisky out and having a think about, about, about these things and reflecting in on it, and how, and what it means to you and what you want to do. James: Thank you. Kerrie: Thanks. Andrew: Thanks, James. James: I'm gonna cry. Andrew: Come on. Let's hug it out. Come here. James: Exactly. It was very good. That was a beautiful moment. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks to our guests, Andrew Denton and Dr Kerrie Noonan. You've been listening to Season 6 of Life's Booming: Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please leave a review or tell someone about it. Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this interview with Andrew Thomson, a Scottish seasoned professional in the energy sector, we delve into the multifaceted landscape of oil, renewable energy, and their global implications through a personal lens. Andrew shares his journey from working in the oil industry over 20 years to recently transitioning into nuclear and wind energy sectors. Through his experiences, he provides insights into the socioeconomic impact of oil, the challenges of transitioning to renewable energy, and the complexities of global politics that intertwine with the energy sector.Exploring Andrew's experiences working offshore in locations like Nigeria and Azerbaijan, the discussion uncovers the substantial influence of hydrocarbons and the cultural, socio-economic, and safety developments within the oil sector. The discussion delves into the critical role of energy across modern life, impacting everything from education to communication, while critiquing governmental actions on energy policies and advocating for a balanced energy strategy, similar to Japan's where currently works in setting up Wind Turbine Platforms (using much of the same technology as oil rigs). Furthermore, the dialogue highlights the philosophical and challenging practical shifts toward renewables, exploring political and economic challenges in this transition. Through Andrew's perspective, one can try to better attempt to begin to understand the global energy politics, the necessity of interdisciplinary approaches in energy careers, and the shifting dynamics in the energy sector.Time Stamps * 00:00 The Importance of Energy in Modern Life* 01:00 Introducing Andrew: From Oil to Climate-Friendly Energy* 01:46 Andrew's Background and Career Journey* 02:38 Life and Work in the Oil Industry* 07:34 Challenges and Dangers of Offshore Drilling* 10:54 The Culture and Lifestyle of Oil Workers* 20:58 Global Perspectives: Working in Africa and Beyond* 23:58 Corruption and Local Interactions in the Oil Industry* 38:09 A Costly Mistake and Cultural Reflections* 38:54 Corruption and Anti-Corruption Measures* 40:09 Cultural Differences and Acceptance* 41:13 Colonial Legacy and Historical Perspectives* 43:41 Nationalized vs. Private Oil Companies* 45:46 Transition to Renewable Energy in Japan* 46:12 Challenges in the Oil Industry* 48:22 Geopolitics and Energy Policies* 56:43 Experiences with Government Agencies* 01:03:56 Future Prospects and Peak Oil Debate* 01:08:06 Final Thoughts on Energy and PolicyHighlights and Quotes of Interest On Energy Source MixesJapan has a long term vision.It has a vision of a percentage mix of nuclear fossil fuels, renewables, whereas I feel like I'm fairly against it in my home country, in the UK, because we don't have a long term plan. We've had four prime ministers in the last two years. One of them wanted to build eight nuclear power stations, the next one to start fracking. I believe in an energy mix. I think there's a lot of irresponsibility talked about these days in terms of the energy transition. I do think there should be an energy mix.And then the one now wants to quadruple our offshore wind capacity in eight years, which is impossible. It's quite nonsensical. It's quite short term thinking. I'm not anti wind, I'm not pro oil, I'm not anti or pro any, anything. What I'm pro is a science based, long term, non subsidy, non corruption based market solution.On Incentives in Oil Vs “Renewables”So right now, it seems like oil is completely negative and then offshore wind is completely positive. You look at the motivations behind companies putting in offshore wind turbines or the service companies exactly the same as motivations behind all companies.Neither one is doing them. For anything other than to make money. And I think it's simplistic and a little bit silly to think that the boss of an oil company is some sort of J. R. Ewing, person that likes to run over puppies on the way home and the boss of an electricity company or a turbine installation company or whatever is some sort of, sandal wearing saint that doesn't care about money. Everyone in pretty much, I would say any corporation, that statistic about men are CEOs, they're psychopaths. All they care about is money. And I think there are a lot of like there's a lot of talk about subsidies in [renewables] On Oil's Beastly NatureIt only takes, one ignition source and then you're on top of a fireball…potential that the entire thing can blow up underneath your feet. On Life without Oil It's the world we have is impossible to have without oil. Sure. You can reduce it. It's going to run out eventually one day anyway.So reducing it is not a bad thing, but to pretend that you can just press stop and then you can put in a wind turbine is nonsensical. And the politicians know it's nonsensical as well.  The sheer scale of, Hydrocarbon involvement in our modern industrial life is so incredibly difficult to untangle. There's literally nothing more important than our energy because it ties into the availability of education and medicine and travel and communication. Right, without. some form of mass energy production. We're right back to the medieval ages.On The British State I speak from a very UK point of view because it's my country, it's my home. I feel As ever, the British state works against the British people, not for the British people, which is a contrast to some of the countries that we may look down our noses on a little bit more as not developed, where, and Japan is a great example of this, where Japan seems to do things for the benefit of Japanese people, which seems to be a controversial idea back home. Learning from Travel This is part of, traveling. You see so many countries where people are so proud of their country. Nigerians were some of the most proud people I think I've ever met, and it's the same in Japan. And I worry the direction our country's going, both the UK and the US, when we were raising a generation of children who are being taught to be embarrassed by where they come from. Though I really feel like in the West we've made a mistake over the years in trying to impose our way of looking at the world on other cultures.Post Interview Notes / Links from AndrewHere are some relevant links that might be of interest:"Empire of Dust", a fascinating documentary widely referenced online, but with no major release I don't think, that shows interaction between a Chinese contractor and locals in the DRC. It's a perfect example of culture clash, the strength in the documentary being there is no western-style narrative, it's simply two very different cultures interacting honestly with each other. The film-maker is Belgian which is particularly interesting given their colonial history in the DRC.Watch @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5gdfm4I can particularly recommend Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness if you're interested in the dark side of colonialism, or any history of DRC or Zaire as it was. One of my favourite films is Apocalypse Now, which along with the book perfectly makes the point I was trying to, which is how these cultures are manifestly different from ours, and any attempt to convert or run these societies in a western way will ultimately end up in failure, unless it's done by complete dominance, which of course, is wrong. It's a subject I find really interesting, and my experiences in Africa really changed how I view the world.On Energy Prices “Strike Prices” and Renewables Some links explaining the Strike Price for electricity set through the CfD (Contract for Difference) mechanism that guarantees a specific rate for electricity to renewables companies.https://www.iea.org/policies/5731-contract-for-difference-cfdhttps://www.eurelectric.org/in-detail/cfds_explainer/ It's quite hard to find a non-biased article explaining this, but the basic mechanism is:What isn't always mentioned is the "top-up" when the price falls is paid to the generators by the consumer, in the UK at least, in the form of a levy on the electricity price. Which is fine in theory to have a set electricity price, but currently the UK has the 3rd highest electricity costs in the world:https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-electricity-by-countryOn British Embassy Support (Weapons:Yes / Hydrocarbons: No)UK government ending support for oil and gas sector abroad:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-announces-the-uk-will-end-support-for-fossil-fuel-sector-overseasBut no issue promoting UK weapons manufacturers:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/3/15/uk-spent-1-3m-on-security-for-worlds-biggest-weapons-fairSubsidies provided to the oil and gas industry in the US: (this can be complicated to assess because the IMF considers environmental and health costs after production as an effective subsidy, whereas the OECD and the IEA do not)https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costsCorrection on Refinery Capacity in NigeriaI was slightly mistaken, there is some refinery capacity in Nigeria, in fact it's the highest in all of Africa, however it is still around half of what Houston alone produces per day.https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13203-018-0211-zOn Oil Piracy / Theft (Discussed During Interview as Another Source for Danger / Volatility / Environmental Damage) Oil pipeline theft still seems to be a problem in Nigeria sadly:https://www.pipeline-journal.net/news/explosion-nigeria-oil-pipeline-kills-12-shell-blames-crude-oil-theft-tragedyOn Working in the Pubic SectorI was thinking about one of your last questions afterwards, whether I'd ever work for the government. You know, I would actually love it, to be able to make some type of positive impact, I'd really enjoy that much more than my current job, it's just that what I would advocate is so far in the opposite direction of the UK foreign office and civil service's ethos (non-judgmental promotion of UK interest and people without imposing change on other countries) that I wouldn't get the opportunity. The British sitcom "Yes Minister" captures perfectly how the UK establishment works, it's from the 80s but still very relevant. It works to ensure the continued existence of the establishment, not the general population.AI Machine Transcription - Enjoy the Glitches!Andrew: The sheer scale of, Hydrocarbon involvement in our modern industrial life is so incredibly difficult to untangle.There's literally nothing more important than our energy because it ties into the availability of education and medicine and travel and communication. Right, without. some form of mass energy production. We're right back to the medieval ages.Leafbox: Andrew, thanks so much for making time for me. I know you're a busy guy. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Actually, when I first met you, I was actually fascinated with your work because you're one of the few people I know who has jumped from the oil sector to a climate friendly energy sector, I call it, so I was very curious about your perspectives on both. Having, your wife told me that you lived in Baku and that alone, it is probably a book's worth of questions. Andrew, why don't we just start tell us who you are, where you are, what's the weather like in Fukuoka? And where are you from?Andrew: Well, the most important thing the seasons in Japan seem to follow rules like the rest of Japan. So it's got the memo recently that it's not summer anymore, which is great because summers here are pretty brutal. And it's cloudy and rainy, which from someone from Scotland is nice and familiar.Yeah, I guess be brief biography. I'm Scottish from the North of Scotland. This is usually the point where someone says, well, you don't sound Scottish, but that's because I was born down in England. But moved up Scott, two parents from very remote rural part of Scotland. And we moved up when I was about six.So I went to the local university Aberdeen which at the time was the oil capital of Europe. So with a passion for engineering and a desire to Just have adventure really as a young guy wanting to see the world. Also oil is always historically been very well paid. Probably along the lines of, I don't know, market wise, your career options, lawyer, doctor, that sort of thing, which was never really my interest in an oil worker.So anyway financial motivations, adventure motivations, just an interest in big, heavy engineering pushed me in that direction. I joined, graduated, I took a master's in offshore engineering graduated and joined Halliburton about six weeks before 9 11. So this was in the year of of Dick Cheney, of course then I eventually ended up working offshore.For a company that worked on drilling rigs, doing directional surveys, so you would run drilling tools down the well and that was quite life changing, really very exciting. A lot of. Pressure. This is all gonna make me sound very old, but pre smartphone days. So you were a lot more on your own in those days.I did that for four years. Then I ended up running operations in Lagos, Nigeria. Did that for three years, joined a Norwegian company, worked for them in Aberdeen, and then again, oil service. And ended up running their operations in Baku and Azerbaijan. Then COVID came along and like for a lot of people turned the world upside down.So with the low oil price ended up being made redundant and Really struggled for about a year or so to find work and then it wasn't ideological either one way or another in terms of the energy transition, it's quite heavily marketed these days but I'm not overly convinced that it's as easy as politicians seem to say it is but I took a job for a company drilling offshore foundations.And I was working on a nuclear power station, the cooling shafts for a nuclear power station. And then I simply got a job offer one day an online recruiter to come to Japan to work on offshore wind which has some, Close. It's basically the same things I was doing, except it was in nuclear.So yeah, none of it's been a straight line or a plan, but just the opportunity came up. We really wanted to have another period abroad. So we took the move and then I find myself on a beach speaking to yourself after about a year or so. Leafbox: So Andrew, going back to university time, exactly what did you study? Was this petroleum engineering? Or Andrew: It was no, it was mechanical engineering. But being in it was Robert Gordon university in Aberdeen, but being in Aberdeen, it was very heavily oil influenced at the time. I was actually. obsessed with cars and motorbikes, anything with an engine. So I really wanted to do automotive, but I didn't have the grades to go to a lot of the bigger universities down South.And I was 16 when I went to university and didn't really want to go too far. So I did mechanical. And then that led on to a degree in offshore engineering at the same university, which was completely oil focused. Leafbox: And then Andrew, can you tell me a little bit about the makeup of, the demographics of when you entered the oil industry and especially in Scotland and what were these offshore platforms like, you have engineers with high degrees and then what about the workers themselves?Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. So, your average rig is made up of a lot of different job functions. At the top or guess with the most responsibility. So you've got your company that own the rig. They're the drilling contractor and they have their personnel the guy that manages the rig, and then they have all different personnel, including all the deck crew and all the roughnecks raised about, but then you have the oil company that contracts them.And they have someone offshore running it, but they have a lot of engineers. And then you have all these like service companies, which is what I've worked for that come in and do things. So you typically have on the oil company sides. You'd have someone with, degrees, you'd have like their graduate programs, you'd have young people coming offshore, their first time offshore, but they'd be quite high up relatively.And then you would have your deck crew, mechanics, electricians, which typically weren't university educated. And the guys right at the very top who'd be like, Oh, I am like the rig manager generally, especially in the old days, wouldn't be university educated, but they would just have worked offshore for a very long time.So that they'd be very knowledgeable and skilled in what we're doing. A lot of them took degrees as, technology increased. And it became, more important to have a degree, but especially in the old days, although I think at that level in that job, people wouldn't have had degrees, but you do have, it is a big mix between like I said, your deck crew and the people that are more like the, engineers, geologists, et cetera.And I can't speak for every region, but you do find that you've got, so say the comparative salary or career prospects of a welder, or a mechanic or somewhere you've suddenly got someone who could earn, I don't know, in the U S but in the UK, maybe Twenty five twenty twenty five thousand pounds a year.Maybe, like three years ago in their offshore making like 60, and it's I think it's the same thing in the U. S. you have people from very poor areas that can go offshore and just, quadruple more there their salaries and it's a, But there's a reason why they're, there's a reason why they're getting paid that is because it's a lot more difficult and dangerous when you're away from home and stuff. It's a strange old mix in a lot of ways. Leafbox: And then can you describe for people just what the actual dangers are? Give people an image of what these platforms are like to be on them and how to build them and the complexity of these devices.Andrew: There's so you have there's a lot of different forms, but basically you have a drilling rig. which can be like a semi submersible which floats or a jack up which legs are like sitting on the ground or you could even have a ship that comes like, it all depends on the the depth of the water depth usually.So you'll have this vessel that drills a well and then eventually, so they'll drill a number of wells and then you'll have a platform which is fixed to the seabed usually and then that can that has like a. A wellhead that connects all the wells and then takes the hydrocarbons on board and then it might pump it to another bigger platform or it pumps it to some like somewhere where it's processed and then it's pumped on shore.There's different. There's common dangers. Everything from there've been a number of helicopter incidents over the years. Generally, a lot of these rigs are so far away that you'll take a, you'll take a chopper backwards and forwards. And it's been well documented of things like gearbox failures and stuff.You're probably one of the biggest, I don't have the HSC statistics in front of me, but one of the biggest injuries are probably slips, trips and falls. Because, your average drilling rig has maybe four or five levels to it, and you're up and down stairs all day with big boots on and a hard hat and glasses and stuff, and people tripping on themselves.Obviously drilling, you've got well you've got a lot of overhead lifts, a lot of people get injured with the fingers getting caught between loads roughnecks, raced abouts on the drill floor when they're handling drilling pipe. I've met a lot of people over the years that have got one or more fingers missing, because it's very easy to get your finger nipped between two things are being lifted, especially when people put their hands on to try and direct them.And then obviously the pressure of the hydrocarbons look at deep water horizon, for example the oil and the gas, It's funny listening to your podcast with Jed about oil being sentient that the pressure that the oil is under.So when you tap into, obviously it wants to go, it wants to go up and out. And then that could literally rip a rig apart if it's not if it's not controlled. And then obviously you've got the ignition risk, which, you've got Piper Alpha in the UK and you've got, like I say, Deepwater Horizon, there's been a number of rig explosions and then going back to what I said about platforms.So Piper Alpha was a platform and that was processing gas. So you have 100 and 170, 200 odd people working and living. on a structure offshore where there are like an enormous amount of gas that's being pumped. extracted and pumped like underneath their feet and it only takes, one ignition source and then you're on top of a fireball.And I remember being offshore when they're flaring, which is a process whereby they burn off excess gas and just being stunned by the ferocity of the noise, nevermind the heat of the, that it's just like a primal hour, you, you can stand a couple of hundred. Yards away from it and you can feel it on your face, it's just, it's very different.I've been offshore on a wind turbine installation vessel, which has the same offshore industrial risks in terms of lifted injuries, slips, trips, and falls and suspended loads. But you don't have that. You don't have that like potential that the entire thing can blow up underneath your feet.Leafbox: So with this danger and this kind of. wild beast underneath you. How did the men and women respond? You had in your email, a little bit of this kind of cowboy culture. I'm curious what the culture of these workers are like, and maybe in Scotland and what you've seen around the world. If these people aren't usually they're more working class or what's the relationship with them and the engineers and yeah, tell me about that.Andrew: It's it's a very, it's a very masculine environment. That's not to say that there aren't women offshore in the industry. There, there absolutely are. And there, there are more and more these days especially in certain countries, like in Scandinavia, for instance But it's a very, especially when you get down to the deck crew, it's a very, the recruits are very masculine, very like macho environment.It's quite a tough environment. It's a very hard working environment. The it's not that people I wouldn't say a matter of fact to say the opposite in terms of people having a cavalier attitude to safety. There have been a number of incidents over the years in the industry and each incident spurred along quite a lot of improvements in health and safety.So I'd say probably in terms of. Industry, it's probably one of the safest industries, well, it's probably one of the industries with the best safety attitude. I'm sure maybe nuclear is probably up there as well, but people are aware offshore of the risks. There's a huge QHSE industry.There's a, most companies have some form of a HSE system, which allows anyone from someone who works for the camp boss, like someone who changes the sheets, the cleaners, the cooks to like the driller can stop operations if they think that something is dangerous and there can't be any comeback, and stopping operations offshore is a big deal.Because the average. Rigorate is, it fluctuates, but the average is, I don't know, a few hundred thousand, I don't know what it is at the moment, but let's say up to maybe a half a million more for the biggest rates, biggest rigs per day. That's what, 20, 000 an hour. So if you see something that's dangerous and you stop it for a couple of hours that's a lot of money.So it takes a lot of nerve to do that, but the industry has been pretty good. They have these systems called stop cards. Like I say, Different companies have different names for it, but it gives the ability to It gives you authority for someone not to be forced into doing something that they think is dangerous.So overall, I actually think the health and safety culture is quite good. But if you look at Deepwater Horizon, that was a classic example of even at the corporate level, people being frightened to say no and frightened to halt operations. So that does still persist due to the sheer amount of money involved.Leafbox: And then tell me about in your email, you had a quote line about, these workers spending their money, maybe not as wisely. I'm curious to describe and understand the cowboy. I have this image, my father worked for Exxon for a long time. And his biggest problem was piracy. They had so much issues with piracy, but this was in the Caribbean. So it's just constantly people stealing oil from them. So maybe yeah, tell me how it is now after I guess 2000s, how it's changed. You're describing this very safe sounding MBA driven culture, but I have trouble.Yeah. Tell me what it's like around the world. Andrew: So that's the sort of the day to day attitude offshore, which is pushed very heavily by the oil companies. It's a lot of recording. They record lost time statistics which also not to get sidetracked, but that has a slightly negative effect as well in terms of if a rig has, say.That they'll, quite often rigs will have a big display when you arrive and it says this amount of days from the last accident and if they go like a year without any LTIs, everyone on the rig could get like an iPad or some sort of bonus or something and it's a big deal not to have incidents that cause a loss of time and that, by that if someone has to go to hospital, someone has to leave the rig, but that also does encourage it can encourage hiding of things, someone maybe, they've smashed their finger, but can they just maybe report it, but maybe just go on like light duties or something rather than go to the hospital before, before their shift change sort of thing which does happen and it's not healthy.But anyway, to get back to your point I think it comes from, as I say it's, a way for someone who would have no other avenue to earn the amount of money that they would get offshore by taking on the additional risk and being away from home. So say an electrician, your average construction electrician wages are probably pretty good these days, but if you take someone working in, some rural place in, in the States who is like a car mechanic or something, and then they go offshore And they're multiplying their salary, but they're multiplying their salary, perhaps coming from an environment where no one's ever had that type of money.They're coming home with maybe try to think of some people I've known, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year when their salary may have been I don't know, sub six figures, but they don't come from an environment where that sort of money is common. So you then have a situation whereby they are the one person in their family or town or their local bar.who has loads of money, who's been away from home for four weeks, but he doesn't have the most stable relationship precisely because they're not at home, but yet they've got loads of money and loads of time. You can see how that can encourage perhaps resentment. Or just a feeling of alienation from that community.That sort of person, say they have a lot more money than their friends, maybe they want to buy them drinks, but then do they want to have to do that all the time? I've known people that have been divorced multiple times, that have bought boats and all sorts of things that they never use and they end up with, paying for There are families that they never see, the families that get remarried, the kids that they never see.I've worked with directional drillers that I've got a wife in one country, an ex wife in another country, kids that don't like them, and they just pay for all these families. They get onshore and then they spend the next couple of weeks with some, teenage prostitute blowing all the money on that drink for the rest of the month and then they're back offshore.the shakes and then they decompress over the month and then the cycle repeats itself. So in the one sense, it's a fantastic opportunity for social mobility, but it also can leave a lot of chaos behind it. And I'm certainly not at all. And having come from a work class background myself, I'm not certainly saying that.It shouldn't be there. I think it's a positive thing and it's up to these people what they want to do with their money. I'm just saying it's an interest in social observance that it's, you don't get that many working class people that can leave school and have a manual trade and can go and be a lawyer or a doctor or a CEO but you are all of a sudden getting these people in situations who are making the same amount of money, but without the family structure.Or the societal structure that can prepare them for that.Leafbox: Jumping to the next topic, I'm curious, you first mentioned Dick Cheney, what was your relationship, you're in Scotland, and how does that fiddle in with the Middle East? oil wars and just the general kind of, I feel like when my father worked in oil, there wasn't that much of a hostility in the general environment.It was just people drove cars and you worked in the oil industry and it wasn't that. So in post 2000, I would say things change both from the climate perspective and then from the kind of American imperialist association with oil. Andrew: It's changed massively in terms of hostility. Just, it's just like night and day. So when I graduated, I remember being at school in the early nineties and there was, I don't think it was climate, no, no global warming. It was called then. So there was discussion of it.But the greenhouse the ozone layer was the big deal. And there was environmentalism, Greenpeace was quite big at that time. But. The, there was no stigma like whatsoever into going into the oil industry. And you could see that in terms of the courses at the time they were called there was like drilling engineering courses, offshore engineering courses petroleum engineering.You go back to the same universities now and it's like energy transition. I think you'll struggle to find that many courses that have got the words petroleum or drilling in it. And also it was very easy to get a job in those days in the industry. The, yeah the Gulf War, so the second Gulf War at the time working for Halliburton, I was very conscious of, it was very interesting to me how the company was structured.So you had Halliburton Energy Services and you had KBR, Kellogg, Brennan, Root, and they were the company that won the uncontested contract to rebuild in Iraq. But the way the company was structured. Was that they were that they were split up basically. So if one of them had gone down the toilet for any of these issues, they were separated.I was very happy to join Haliburton. It was a big career wise. I thought it was very good. I look back now, it's funny how I look back, like inside, I look back on that whole Iraq war with absolute horror now, but I had grown up with Free internet with, what at the time were considered authoritative news sources with the BBC and British newspapers.It might sound naive, but you believe that people are doing the right thing. And I just thought at the time that, that, we were going into Iraq because it was a very bad person there. And I look back now, with I look at Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and all the things that have happened with absolute horror.But at the time it just seemed quite straightforward. My, my view on the oil industry hasn't changed in terms of, I, I believe in an energy mix. I think there's a lot of irresponsibility talked about these days in terms of the energy transition. I do think there should be an energy mix.I don't think it should be any one source of energy. But I feel like we're in the same position that we're in before except instead of it being everyone's desperate to make money out of oil. I think everyone's desperate to make money out of renewables these days. Leafbox: Well, before we jump to that point, I want to I think that's a big topic we'll go to, but tell me about your jump to Nigeria.You're still naive then, or eager help, Nigerian oil industry or what you get assigned to Nigeria. What's that like? Andrew: Well, so I so that four years of us, so the three years I worked for that company originally was on it was on an ad hoc basis. So basically I would be at home. I'd get a phone call.And I could, I had to live within 45 minutes of the airport but I usually got at least a day. Sometimes it wasn't, it will, it was literally a day. Sometimes it was like a week, but I would get a call and then I could go anywhere in a region was Europe, Africa, Caspian. So I could go anywhere.Most of it was in West Africa. So I would go and work offshore in the Congo. Not the DRC, but the Republic of Congo Gabon, Nigeria, but all over Europe and occasionally like the Far East. So I had a lot of experience of Africa at that point. My very first, one thing I did want to, I was thinking the other day, one thing I did want to mention was when I first went, in terms of naivety, when I first time I ever went to Africa was in the Congo.And I'd grown up in the eighties where we had Live Aid was basically anyone's kind of opinion of Africa. And I remember at school we used to be forced to sing Do They Know It's Christmas, like every Christmas. So that was everyone's opinion of Africa was like just basically starving children. And I arrived in the Congo.They've got quite a decent airport now in Point Noir, but when I arrived it was literally a concrete shed with arrivals on one side and departures on the other and just like sand on the ground. And I can't remember coming out of that totally by myself just with my Nokia phone with the local contacts phone number and all these little kids appeared like Tugging it, tugging at my trousers asking for money and I was absolutely horrified I'd never seen like poverty like that and I felt horrible that I couldn't help them.But it's funny how You not that I don't care about children, but you harden yourself to what the reality of life is like in places like that. And I did that for three years. I was in Angola rotating for a year. In Cabinda, which is a chevron camp. And then I I got the job in Nigeria.And actually my father passed away just before I got that job. So I was a bit rudderless at that point. I really enjoyed it got to me in the end, I was there for three years and I started to get very frustrated when I was at home, that's when I thought I need to make a change.But there's a sort of happy level of chaos, I found. It's. in Nigeria, where things are, they don't work in the sense that they would do in, in, in what you'd call, developed countries. You can't rely on things to work. You can't really rely on people in a certain sense, but there's a sort of happy, it's difficult to explain.Like it's just, It's a very chaotic place, a very noisy, chaotic place. But once you accept that it's quite a good laugh actually. I have some quite happy memories from working there. Leafbox: So Andrew, when you enter in these places you first described your kind of exposure to Congo, but how do you conceptualize the interaction between the Western oil companies and I guess the local developing country?Do you think about that? Or are all the workers local? Or is everyone imported from all over the world? And Andrew: There's a big move towards localization in pretty much any location I've been which is, which has changed over the years. So when I first started working say in Africa, as an example.Pretty much all of the deck crew, all of the roughnecks were all Africans or locals from whichever ever country you're in. But once you got to the upper levels, like the Western oil companies, you would have, so you'd have like drill engineers, which weren't. You might describe them as like project managers of the drilling operations.So there you would have kind of a mix of locals and expats, but you pretty much always find once you went above that to like drilling managers. You'd find all what they call company men, which are the company's representative offshore, pretty much always expats. That has changed over the years, which I think is a very positive thing.A lot of countries, Azerbaijan's like this, a lot of countries in Africa, Nigeria is like this. They put within the contracts, like a local content. So for a company to win the license and which is then cascaded down to the subcontractors, you have to have a percentage of local employees and you have to have a system for replacing your senior people, training up locals and replacing them over time, which I think is very positive because after all, it's there.Oil is their resources. There are in certain locations with certain companies, a pretty bad history. Shell Nigeria, for example. You can your listeners can look all this up, but there have been, various controversies over the years on the whole, I think on the whole, I think.that it's a positive for these countries because I look at it in terms of a capitalist sort of capitalist approach that, you know and it's almost like the thing that I was saying where you have like someone who comes from a family or a class where they are not exposed to money and all of a sudden they have a huge amount of money where you could say the same thing with some tiny country where by a that they've had a level of civilization and a level of like income over the years and all of a sudden someone discovers oil and there's no way you can reasonably expect a society to just, you can't take somewhere that goes from like tribal pre industrial revolution conditions and make it New York City overnight.It's just, it's not going to happen. And just expanding that slightly, I was in Papua New Guinea in the eastern part And up in the highlands on a well site a while ago. And that was fascinating because Papua New Guinea is still, it's a country, but it's still very tribal. So once you leave Port Moresby you're really, it's not like you're going to call the police if someone tries to assault you or call an ambulance or something.It's very much like I say, pre industrial revolution, tribal. societies, but they're sitting on billions of dollars of gas. So you get these little pockets of on the shore drilling rigs. And they're just pumping millions and billions of dollars worth of gas out from under your feet, but they pay the locals.And the site that I was on right at the top of the hill overlooking it was a big mansion owned by the who, as soon as he started drilling, he would get 10 million. And then, as I was informed, would probably disappear down to Australia and, enrich the local casinos and stuff. But, who is to say that is, would it be great if he built a hospital and built a school and improved the lives of everyone around him?Oh, of course it would. But who's to say morally that we Chevron should be, I understand the point that maybe Chevron should be building these things, but who is to say that the condition should be attached to what that chief spends his money on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I I think I place a lot of responsibility on hydrocarbons are located.I do think there have been a lot of very negative practices by By all companies over the years, and they absolutely have a duty to maintain the environment. But I think it's a bit hypocritical. I see a lot of rich Western countries, especially now saying to a lot of poorer, undeveloped countries that they shouldn't be drilling or they shouldn't be, should be using the money differently.And I think, well, it's their resource. I look at it more from a capitalist point of view, rather than, like I said in my email, I'm quite anti interventionist in that sense. So historically I'm going to, this continues now, but there have been issues with literally, so they put these big pipelines through people's villages and the way that a lot of these things are organized is like I said, about Papua New Guinea they'll contact, the tribal chief and we'll pay a rent or some sort of fee to, to put these big pipelines through, through these small places.But there are some times when, I haven't, I, the right tribal chief or they've not paid enough or there's some sort of dispute and you will get villagers literally drilling into these oil pipelines with drills and buckets to steal the oil. And of course someone's doing it and they're smoking or there's some sort of ignition source and the whole thing erupts and, the village is burnt and it's a horrible, tragedy but it's just it's a funny, again, it goes back to the theory of what I was saying, the juxtaposition of that very valuable resource with a very, with a civilization, with a community, probably better way of putting it, who has never had access to that amount of money.So you're literally pumping these, this thing through their village that is worth more money than they'll ever see in their lifetime. And obviously the temptation to try to take some of that. is there, almost like understandably, but then again it quite often results in a lot of death and destruction.So that's yeah, it's just it's part of the whole industry in a lot of ways. And other industries, when you look at things like lithium mining and diamonds and stuff, you have a very high value resource That has been, by pure chance, located in a very poor part of the world and it results in these tragedies sometimes.Leafbox: I was going to ask you about the processing of oil. So when export the raw crude. Mostly the oils and process somewhere else. You were, you're taking the oil from Nigeria. Like Venezuela, they have to ship it all to Houston or whatnot to get turned into different solvents and gasoline. And, Andrew: This is probably when I'll need some fact checking, but my recollection of the time in Nigeria was that they weren't processing the oil on shore.I stand corrected if that's wrong, but my understanding was that they weren't, or at least there wasn't very many refineries, so it was basically all, like you said, extracted and then sent abroad. To be refined. That's certainly the situation in in Papua New Guinea. A lot of it is turned an LPG there and then shipped abroad.I guess I would guess, I would assume that would be the situation in a lot of West African countries for a lot of reasons, you have an established. Supply chain, you have established skill set in other places, then it comes down to cost and then you have the security of, you can imagine the enormous amount of investment you would need in a refinery.And would you rather do that in a place that's had a history of civil war, or would you take the cost to ship it abroad and do it somewhere else, Leafbox: no, it's understandable. I think that's important for listeners to understand that. The refinery in Louisiana or whatnot, or, it's so massive, it's billions of dollars and it's such a dangerous place to work also. Right. Those are just like literally atomic bomb sized potential energy. Andrew: The one thing that, there's always been, say in Scotland, there's been a little bit of resentment towards, Aberdeen and they're all like rich up there from other places in Scotland, but I think that there is, people are aware of Deepwater Horizon and Piper Alpha, et cetera, but I do think that there has been an underappreciation of the, just the Crazy risks that are involved when you're working offshore and handling hydrocarbons.Like I said, you take a helicopter to work with all the risks that I had in, in tails, and then you spend a month or so working on top of something that is effectively, a bomb if if things aren't handled properly. And you're, how far away are you from like emergency services?There are supply vessels and stuff, but. It's very much an environment where you have to just be very careful and very aware of dangers, which I think the industry now has got very good at. But yeah, the wages are high, but they're high for a reason. It's not it's not an easy, it's not an easy job in terms of that.And like I alluded to before, in terms of family stability, working away and coming back is not really conducive quite often to, to a healthy home life.Leafbox: Going back to Angola for a second I read an account of the Chinese are very heavily in Luanda and Angola, and they had the terrible civil war.But one of the things that really stood out to me is that all the Chinese use Chinese labor. So their oil boats are all Chinese workers and they often use ex felons, which I thought was interesting. But there's, I guess they, all these ex felons in Angola, I don't know if you saw this, I wanted to confirm it, but there's a lot of half Chinese, half Angolan children now because all the Chinese roughnecks.They're all men. So there's a booming Angolan prostitution and it just was so wild. Angola think Luanda is the most expensive city in the world. But then the most violent too, so yeah, just what's your general impressionAndrew: I I've been in Luanda in total, probably just a couple of days.Most of my time was spent in a, so Chevron Texco have this place called Cabinda. Which is actually, technically speaking, if you look at the map, it's not actually connected to Angola, you've got Angola, then you've got a little gap, and then you've got Cabinda, which is the little gap is part of the DRC, I think but Cabinda is where all the onshore processing of the oil is.It's part of Angola and it's like a prisoner of war camp and you go up there and you can't leave pretty much until you've finished your work. But my impression of Lulanda wasn't great at all. I remember driving into it and there's these massive shanty towns on the edge of the city with just like literal rubbish tipped down the side of these hills.And then you get into the city and it's just a. massive continual traffic jam with Porsche Cayennes and Range Rovers and G Wagons. And it just felt in the way that I was describing Lagos and even Port Harcourt, which has a pretty bad reputation as a sort of, chaotic, but fun sort of chaos.I felt and this is just my personal impression, I felt Lwanda was chaos, but dangerous chaos. Not you wouldn't stay in a staff house there and you wouldn't go out for a drink anyway. You wouldn't even really go out for lunch much. You just stayed in. It looked to me like as if you'd taken a European city, which I guess it, that's how it was built.And then you just start maintaining it from like 1960s onwards, but then you'd add it in a civil war and I appreciate the civil war was like a proxy civil war and then just didn't repair any infrastructure and just peppered the whole place with like bullet holes.It wasn't, it was not particularly, it's not a place that I would recommend to be quite honest with you. In terms of the Middle East, the comparison with the Middle East I've not really worked that much in the Middle East, to be quite honest with you. I guess my closest is the Caspian, which is more Central Asia, but that was way more structured.Yes, there's massive amounts of corruption, massive amounts of poverty. But yeah, absolutely more structured and less chaotic in that sense. Leafbox: Andrew, what's the relationship in Nigeria, there's famous activists who, like the Shell, they polluted so heavily, but then I guess the military tribunals would erase or disappear people.Maybe this is before you worked there, but what, as, what was the relationship of the company men with the government? Was there open kind of corruption or? What was your general vibe of is the manager's job and kind of getting these contracts. Talk to me about that. Like Deanna, how did the, you know, Exxon versus Armco or whatever it is, whoever's ever getting these contracts, there's obviously backdoor dealings.Andrew: Yeah, in terms of, actual drilling licenses I was never near or even remotely near the people that will be making those sort of decisions. And I'm certainly not going to allege corruption at that level. And I don't have any evidence, but what I would say, and again, all of this is just my personal opinion.It's, I'm not disparaging any one particular place in general, but the level of corruption. that I would see was so endemic that I just came to feel it was cultural which again, it's not really don't want to make that sound like it's a slight, to me it was an understanding of I really feel, and just briefly going back to the whole Bob Geldof Live Aid thing, I really feel like in the West we've made a mistake over the years in trying to impose our way of looking at the world on other cultures.And what I would see in most West African countries was it was just an accepted way Of living, accepted way of dealing. So you would go to the airport. We used to have these boxes that would have electronic equipment in them. And we had to hand carry them cause they were quite fragile.And then you would go to the check in desk and they would be like okay, well we have to get some stairs to lift this into the plane. So that's an extra 50. I'm not sure you actually own this equipment. It's got another company written on it. You give me a hundred dollars.Sometimes it's not quite said, you'll just get so much hassle and you'd see other, you'd see some people there that would freak out in case thinking that they were gonna, arrested or something. They just open their wallet and hand over loads of money. The, but it's not it's not like some under the table nefarious plot it's just like the checking guy is getting paid next to nothing He sees someone who's obviously got all my money and he has How can I get that money off him and it's at every single level my I mean I suppose I would say I was wise to it, but even I would make naive mistakes.I remember on a leaving day when I left Nigeria I had this driver who I'd still consider a friend. I messaged him on Facebook sometimes, and he was a really nice young guy who would go out of his, literally out of his way to help me. And I made the silly mistake of handing in my bank card on my like, leaving due.I'd had a little bit to drink and I just thought, surely it'll be fine. And of course I get back to the UK, I check my statement and there's a couple of hundred dollars missing or a hundred pounds missing. At the time I was like, that must be a bank error, surely not. But I look back in it now and I just think, again, this isn't, this honestly isn't even a criticism, it's just the culture is to try and hustle.And if you, if it doesn't work, well, I tried. It's just, it's endemic in that sense. I don't doubt that there most likely have been over the years some very shady practices on the behalf of Western oil companies and Western governments. You only have to look at the history of, BP and the UK government and Americans in Iran and coups to get oil and all these sorts of things.But I'm just talking about like the corruption that I've seen, it seemed, Cultural in that sense. It's just everywhere. The one thing that I would say is that companies I've worked for within the contracts is very heavy anti corruption. So the FCPA, if I'm remembering that right, in the US. The anti corruption laws are very strong to the point where if a company official from a country, say like Scotland, is a manager and he signs off on a bribery expense, he can actually, if I'm right in recalling this, he can end up going to jail himself for that.So a hundred percent, I'm sure it's happening by at the same time legally, there are some very strict laws against it. Leafbox: When they just outsource to local sub providers, that's what I would imagine they do to get around that. Andrew: I think it's a case of well, just don't tell me sort of thing.Leafbox: Yeah. Andrew: I'm pretty sure that, that's why. Well, Leafbox: I think people don't understand if you haven't been to these countries, it's just it's just not Norway. It's not. Yeah. It's a very different. Yeah. Andrew: And. I, sorry to interrupt you, but I've done quite a bit of work in Norway and I have found that some countries and some cultures seem to have a difficulty accepting that the world isn't the way that they are.And I think that that, not to, not to boast or to my trumpet here, but I think that one thing that I've learned over the years is that some places they just are the way they are. And it's, of course you don't want to encourage. Corruption, you don't want to encourage mistreatment, but I don't believe it's your right.Like I'm like, I live in Japan now and some things, a lot of things about Japan I absolutely love, but there are also some things about Japan that just don't seem right to me. But it's not my place to come in and say, right, you're doing this wrong. You should be doing this the other way. It just isn't, it's not my country.And I felt the same way in Africa. There's loads of things about Nigeria that I was like, this is absolute madness. But it's their madness, it's not my madness, and I'm a guest in their country. Leafbox: What do you think the difference, in your email to me, you wrote about the colonial being British, how's that relationship been for you?You've, non interventionist now, but you wrote about, your forefathers or previous generations having quote, good intentions. Maybe tell me about that. Andrew: I think that I know that there's a lot in the UK as with America now that's quite, there's a lot of attempt to be revisionist within history and question history, which I'm a big fan of people questioning history.I just think once again, that we are tending to look at things from a very Western point of view without taking into account like global history. I know believe, through my experience of traveling, I now think, well, exactly like what I just said, I don't think it's our place to change countries to mold them in our ways, but I do have a more charitable view of a lot of our maybe not every one of them, certainly not every country's colonial adventures, but I do think that some of them were more motivated by, as I said, a Christian desire to end certain barbaric practices.If you look at, the I forget what the practice is called, but the practice of people burning their their wives on the husband's funeral pyre in India and the whole slavery, which, yes, Britain was a part of but it's quite clear that, the British Navy was very important, effective in, in, in ending the global slave trade.So I'm very proud of where I come from and I'm proud of my ancestors. I don't deny that They were put that they, there weren't some, as I said, some negative aspects and atrocities, but I just think that again, when it comes to, and I think about this more because I have kids now.So I think about how I want them to feel about the country going forward. This is part of, traveling. You see so many countries where people are so proud of their country. Nigerians were some of the most proud people I think I've ever met, and it's the same in Japan. And I worry the direction our country's going, both the UK and the US, when we were raising a generation of children who are being taught to be embarrassed by where they come from.Leafbox: Going back to oil for a second, Andrew, the colonial legacy is impossible to digest in a short interview, but do you have, what's the general like Pemex or the Venezuelan oil companies or the Russian oil companies? What's your general impression of nationalized oil companies versus the private?Andrew: Yeah. I so I guess my biggest experience is in Azerbaijan, there's a company called Soka which is the national oil company. And of course all these national oil companies, a lot of them have shares in international like private oil companies.So it's not always a clear divide of either one or the other, but I guess I, as someone who really. believes in capitalism. I think that in terms of efficiency and certainly in terms of safety, in terms of environmental compliance, I think that the private oil companies are much more answerable to activism, to just a sense of corporate responsibility than private oil companies.And if you're in somewhere like Russia, like you say, Venezuela and the national oil companies is polluting the water. Well, What are you going to do about compared to a private oil company who has, a much more, it has shareholders and I guess more of a global footprint. But I also come back to the point, as I was saying about localization that these resources are the country's resources and I think it's quite right that companies pay.I wouldn't say prohibitive amounts of tax, but I think it's quite right that companies pay a lot of money in tax when they extract the hydrocarbons, and they have local content. I guess the ideal for me is private, but with a level of public ownership. But not actually running the operations because I think as soon as you take away, as soon as you take away that meritocracy, you end up with health and safety risks, you end up with just waste, and when it comes to something like with the large amounts of money involved That just ends up taking money away from the actual people.I don't think it's, I don't think it's generally a great idea, but I think a sort of public, a bit like you see a lot here in Japan actually, a public private mix, if done properly, is probably the way to go for a lot of utilities. Leafbox: Great. So Andrew, maybe it's time to jump to the oil and energy diverse mix.Tell me about what brings you to Japan. First, you work on nuclear and now wind. Andrew: Yeah. For me, I can't claim any sort of high minded high minded drive to change from one industry to the other. It was purely, I had a mortgage and a new baby and I desperately needed a job. So that was how I made that jump.The one thing I have experienced over the years, it's certainly the place I've worked. It's very, Unless you're in a region that has like a national oil company, it's even then I guess depends who you are. It's very meritocratic, but it's quite cutthroat. So oil companies, service companies, as soon as oil price drops, it's very cyclical.People just get made redundant. People, I saw people at Halliburton had been there for literally 40, 50 years being made redundant just because the share price dropped a few points. I've been made redundant twice myself. And yeah, it's just horrible. And there's nothing you can do about it because it's an economic decision.It's nothing to do with your performance. And that happens to, it's probably very few people on the street that hasn't happened to It's the downside of the high salary really. So coming into wind it was really an opportunity to, as I say, we wanted to live abroad again for a little while.And opportunities to live in Japan don't come by very often. And it's interesting. It's interesting. It's very different. It's interesting from an engineering point of view. It's a lot of heavy lifts. And Japan, I think Japan has a good attitude towards offshore wind, because everything else, Japan has a long term vision.It has a vision of a percentage mix of nuclear fossil fuels, renewables, whereas I feel like I'm fairly against it in my home country, in the UK, because we don't have a long term plan. We've had four prime ministers in the last two years. One of them wanted to build eight nuclear power stations, the next one to start fracking.And then the one now wants to quadruple our offshore wind capacity in eight years, which is impossible. It's quite nonsensical. It's quite short term thinking. I'm not anti wind, I'm not pro oil, I'm not anti or pro any, anything. What I'm pro is a science based, long term, non subsidy, non corruption based market solution.Obviously you've got environmental aspect of climate change, et cetera, which needs to be taken into account. But I found, I find a lot of the attitude towards renewables and towards the energy mix quite histrionic and not really based on facts. Leafbox: Do you ever think about, geopolitics as an engineer in terms of, where these pressures are coming from.Europe particularly seems so against oil and hydrocarbons, but if you do any scientific research, you just, there's the capacity of hydrocarbons to produce energy is just unparalleled in terms of the input to output. And wind is just not a realistic option. Andrew: I think that, I think there's a general I would say it's a mistake, but I think it's done on purpose, but there's a general attitude that seems to be portrayed in the media that you can have one company or one industry is virtuous and everything they do is virtuous and there are no negative connotations or motivations behind what they're doing.And then the other is just all negative. So right now, it seems like oil is completely negative and then offshore wind is completely positive. You look at the motivations behind companies putting in offshore wind turbines or the service companies exactly the same as motivations behind all companies.Neither one is doing them. For anything other than to make money. And I think it's simplistic and a little bit silly to think that the boss of an oil company is some sort of J. R. Ewing, person that likes to run over puppies on the way home and the boss of an electricity company or a turbine installation company or whatever.is some sort of, sandal wearing saint that doesn't care about money. Everyone in pretty much, I would say any corporation, that statistic about men are CEOs, they're psychopaths. All they care about is money. And I think there are a lot of like there's a lot of talk about subsidies.You just touched on it, I think. And people talk about subsidies and oil when they're talking about subsidies and oil, what they're talking about is the The fact that when you drill an oil well, which can be anything between, I don't know, 30 and like upwards of 100 million, you basically get to claim that back off the tax.Now the tax in the UK is, it was about 75 percent on the oil that they extract and profit from the oil they extract. But if you have that say 100 million cost, how many companies can drill three or four wells at 100 That you're going to get anything out of that. Very few companies can afford to take that risk.I don't think it's a bit rich to call that a subsidy when you've got the whole CFD process for offshore wind, which effectively guarantees the strike price of electricity. So you imagine if you had that for oil, you would have, You would have countries buying oil off the oil companies when the price dropped, and they don't have that, they don't have that, that, that mechanism, but you simply wouldn't get offshore winds without a decent strike price, which you've seen recently in the auctions when no one bid on the licenses in the UK, and I think it was the US as well.Leafbox: So in essence you prefer just like a free market, totally. Not a totally free market, but in the sense that a clear transparent market. So if that really incentivized the right incentives, like you're saying in Japan, they have that mix of nuclear and hydrocarbon and wind and solar. And in Japan, I always feel like they're just burning trash.That's their real power generation. Andrew: It's funny that it's such a funny place in so many ways, but you've got this island, which has, a lot of geothermal resources. But in terms of mineral resources, it's not in a great position yet. It manages to be so incredibly self sufficient in terms of industry, in terms of fuel price.Like they, they said to me when I arrived here, Oh God, it's so expensive electricity. It's like about 60 to, to a month for the electricity in your house. And it's a four bed house with five air cons on 24 seven. I'm like, geez, you just see the price UK. You'd be like, 10 times almost. So they managed to make it work, but like everything else here, like I said, it's a long term, long thought process.And Obviously, I guess we haven't really talked about it, and I'm not, I don't feel qualified even to talk about it at all, to be honest with you, but in terms of climate change, I am very much meritocratic and capitalist in that sense that I think the market will identify the most efficient.way of providing energy, but I completely accept that there needs to be a level of environmental regulation because going back to what I said, CEOs, I think of any company would do anything if it made them money. And I've seen, I saw this in Azerbaijan. You go out, you're back, he's an absolutely beautiful city, but if you look back through its history of being part of the Soviet Union, the level of just pollution was unreal and it still suffers from a lot of that, especially out with the main city. So I 100 percent agree with environmental regulations. I think that, I think there's a lot of politics behind climate change. I'm quite skeptical of international NGO organizations, especially with the last few years that we've had.But I think that the yeah, I think that Japan's got it right. I think we need a mix and we need to not. Pretend like we are doing in the UK at the moment that for instance, the electricity price in the UK is doubled since 2019. And it hasn't here in Japan, and there, there tends to be a thought of, well, we just need to do all this because climate change is going to happen.It doesn't matter that, that people are suffering now, I don't think, I think people tend to. tend to maybe forget the, it's like the, the just stop oil extinction rebellion types. It's the world we have is impossible to have without oil. Sure. You can reduce it. It's going to run out eventually one day anyway.So reducing it is not a bad thing, but to pretend that you can just press stop and then you can put in a wind

Dive into the latest episode of the Class E Podcast with Andrew Predmore, the executive director of Furman University's Shi Institute, as he shares insights into their innovative initiatives. From on-campus climate action planning to a closed-loop food system, the episode delves into sustainability challenges and solutions. Join the conversation as they discuss composting, student engagement, and outward-facing programs, including the Sustainability Leadership Initiative. Andrew sheds light on working with businesses for sustainability and fostering leadership in South Carolina. Discover how Furman is making strides in sustainability, from reducing carbon emissions to unique partnerships. Don't miss the innovative steps they're taking in waste reduction at athletic events, creating a blueprint for sustainable practices. Gain valuable perspectives on sustainability and be inspired by Furman's commitment to a greener future! Guest: Andrew Predmore, Director of the Shi Institute at Furman University Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript:  Mary: Today, our guest is Andrew Predmore, who is the Executive Director of the Shi Institute for Sustainable Communities here at Furman University. Andrew, welcome to the show. Andrew: Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here and excited to talk about innovation and entrepreneurship. Mary: Absolutely. Because you guys have some innovative programs, which we're going to talk about but you've only been here a year right?  Andrew: Not even a year. Getting close. So I started October 5th or 6th of last year so getting close to a year, yeah. Mary: How are you finding it?  Andrew: Oh, I love it. Mary: Not to put you on the spot.  Andrew: Well yeah I can't exactly answer like, oh, no good at all. But no, I truly am enjoying the position. And you know, I tell people that I really have one of the most fun jobs there is out there because we do a lot of good. And really, you know, my biggest challenge is trying to figure out what in the world to say no to because all the sustainability work that comes our way is good work. And work that's needed in the world. So lots of opportunity and lots of good things to do. Mary: So let's talk about that because you have some innovative programs that you guys are working on. Can you kind of… I don't want to say just list them all but kind of talk about them, list them and then I want to jump in…there's some that I want to dive into  Andrew: Well it would depend on how you define innovative right? But we have a lot of programming. I couldn't possibly list them all for you. Yeah, I would say like just in a broad sense, like the Shi Institute is working on and off campus on sustainability issues and we're looking to make a difference in both places. Andrew: And along the way, we engage students and faculty in that work. So you know, I'll mention just a couple of things going on on-campus and a couple of things off campus and then we can see where that takes us. But on campus our biggest push right now is climate action planning for the university. So Furman University has a carbon neutrality commitment for 2026. It's going to be really difficult to meet that commitment. And so we're really intentionally working on how we are going to pursue that commitment or we need to reset sort of when we're going to be carbon neutral and what is a pragmatic pathway to reduce carbon emissions because we're in here right now and the lights are on and we're using energy right now. And so that's, that's a real challenge for any university in any large organization. So you got to be innovative, you got to think outside the box. And we want to do it also in a way that supports the broader Greenville community. So that's a big thing that we do on campus and anything that we do on campus, we're always engaging students in that so we have a really vibrant student fellowship program. We also have a farm as you know, and that's an important thing on campus for students to get their hands dirty, and see what a closed loop food system looks like. So we'll probably get to that as an innovation but like, you know, we pick up the food waste that comes out of the back of the dining hall, we take it to a compost facility, we compost it, the compost comes back to the garden. The garden grows produce that is then sold to Bon Appetit. So we really have been working on that this summer, and over the next year to scale that up and see how much we can produce and have students learn along the way. So those are two things on campus. Mary: So quick question about that - Is the goal then to produce so much that then we can sell it to local farmers and stuff?  Andrew: No, I mean, not yet. I mean, the goal right now is to produce as much as we can that will then be served in the dining hall. So I'm gonna go to the dining hall in a few minutes when we're done with this, and you're gonna and I'm gonna see like all those heirloom tomatoes that we grow, I mean, hundreds of pounds and tomatoes this summer. We're getting close to $15,000 over the produce that's gone to Bon Appetit over the summer. So that really is healthy local food going to our students, our faculty, our staff right now, in the future, we might do CSA or do some other things where we sell that in other places, but for now, it's just going to the dining hall. Mary: What about the compost? What's the goal for that?  Andrew: The compost as you might imagine it… we've produced quite a bit of organic material, right and like so students out there and everybody listening, you know, be conscious of what you know, sometimes our stomachs are bigger than… what's the saying?  Mary: Our eyes are bigger than our stomachs. Andrew: Yeah, that's right. But then that translates into food waste. So be aware of that, but there's a lot of that and then there's a lot of leaf litter and organic material that comes on campus. So we blend that right? You have to get the carbon to nitrogen correct and compost that so we have quite a bit of it. We're going to start to sell that as a way to raise funds for the Shi Institute.  Mary: Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said for the farmers like local farmers, who are we selling that to? Andrew: Right now… we're not, we haven't even until now this podcast. I'm not even marketing that we're selling. And we've sold you know, several $1,000, but we're looking to scale that up because we have a lot of organic material and a lot of finished compost. The one little bottleneck we have though is filtering the compost. So we can't have plastic and forks and things that sometimes end up… so we have students out there sometimes filtering that so… Mary: I've seen some of the pictures that students have posted about people accidentally throwing away their forks and stuff in the DH.  Andrew: Yeah, the DH has a tough job right? Like anybody that's been there knows things are moving quick. And sometimes, you know, a fork or things just end up in the wrong place. But we'll solve that, we're going to filter it. Mary: So I want to turn now and talk about some of the outward facing programs.  So you have the sustainability leadership initiative.Tell us about that. Andrew: Yeah, so um, you know, think about it this way, like, like, for the world for society for South Carolina to become a more sustainable place. We've got to work for large organizations, right? And so and large organizations have to change just like Furman has to adapt…other organizations, businesses across the state need to adapt and so Furman and the Shi Institute partners with a nonprofit called sustain SC and each year we do a training that lasts five different sessions throughout the year across the state of South Carolina with around 25 business, nonprofit and public sector professionals that sign up to be in that and we're teaching them about the core aspects of sustainability. We take them out into the field and show them some of the challenges. And what we want to do is create a network of sustainability leaders across the state that are going to move us forward. So that's that program. This will be its third year. We have a really great class of people involved with that, real leaders across the state, and it's been fun putting together that program like we're taking them out to Waitis Island, which is a big conservation win. It's an under conservation easement. It's a barrier island off the coast near Myrtle Beach. So we will take them out there and show them like this is an amazing thing. This is amazing that it's protected in perpetuity, but they will also have to grapple with the fact that, like you all might have heard on the news this week that Myrtle Beach is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Right? So there's all that urban development and around that area. And so those students that are in this program, those professionals, we're going to grapple with that like and hopefully that's going to help create better leadership and sustainability. Yeah, Mary: Yeah, because those people are the people who will then go back to their companies and it has to come from the top down, right? So that's a great way to network. I like that. That's very innovative thinking there and I like that because a lot of people in the industrial side of things don't think like that, right? Unnecessarily.  Andrew: Yeah, I mean I think that is changing. You're right and I think that the innovative thing about that is getting leaders embedded in organizations that then construct and flip systems to more sustainable ones.  Mary: Exactly. Getting them to flip the systems. That's exactly what I was talking about. You have one with manufacturers, a program with manufacturers, talk about that one  Andrew: Yeah, so this really was you know…I don't always love the word pilot but how about demonstration project? This summer where we worked with the South Carolina manufacturers extension program, and they know that there's like 7000 or so small to medium sized manufacturers across the state of South Carolina. And a lot of what they do is supply the really big manufacturing businesses in South Carolina. So think of the you know, the big name industries or companies that you all know like BMW or Michelin or Volvo or, or Milliken across the upstate, right? So they have many, many small suppliers. And then those small suppliers are under some pressure now to understand their carbon footprint. You know, because they supply these bigger businesses that have commitments to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. So I'm like okay, knowing this I'm like, alright, there's a there's a niche here for the Shi Institute right to step in and roll our sleeves up and see if we can help some of these small to medium sized businesses understand their carbon footprint, and it helps their business because then they can say to their customer, their large customer, hey, we're working on it. It helps us because we got students who need to learn carbon accounting as a skill. So there's a really nice win-win. And so we did a couple of those this summer. They were fantastic. We work with a French company, which is located mostly in Anderson County, and they make advanced textiles. And then we work with a company that's really right down the road here called Mosaic Color and Additives. So we had two students do their greenhouse gas inventories, which is the first step like you cannot reduce your impact on climate without first understanding where your emissions come from, that are driving that impact. And so that's what the students do is, you know, we worked it was very much like a client consulting type experience for our students, which is super valuable for them. Mary: That's the Furman advantage right there. Andrew: It is. We handed the company like a report. Here are your emissions, here's where they come from. And they can start thinking about okay, what can we do to lower emissions? How can we market ourselves as a more sustainable company as a result of taking this first step? So that was a great project and we're looking forward to potentially scaling that up next summer and I think yeah.  Mary: I love the fact that you because when we think of people who need to really work on sustainability, we do think of the large companies right because they probably have the most greenhouse gas emissions, etc. But I love the reaching down to the smaller companies or supplying the bigger companies because that really, I think, will make their partnership stronger.  Andrew: It should and it should create an advantage for those first movers in a small to medium sized manufacturing...because they can say to their larger customers, hey, we're serious about it. We're taking this first step. So we, we, you know, sometimes people think sustainability, shouldn't or can't work with the business sector and I think instead we need to be innovative and think about how we can support the change that needs to happen. And so that's what we've tried to do.  Mary: Because we're part of that community. So why not? Right?  Andrew: We're wearing clothes and we consume things and so we're all a part of this economic system and, and the challenge of sustainability is how are we going to meet human needs within the boundaries of what our ecosystems can provide?  Mary: What kind of obstacles are you facing with some of these things that some of these initiatives that you're started? Andrew: My own ability to keep up with all this. Like I mentioned, sometimes there's more opportunity than then I can capitalize on it. I mean, we're also involved with some really substantial grant work, research work on climate and climate resilience in South Carolina. Luckily, I have staff they're helping with that. We're also involved with athletics and athletics at Furman and starting to think about, you know, how can we make those events… move them towards zero waste or zero landfill events and so we have to really, I don't know if you want to get into that.  Mary: I actually do.  Andrew: I have some, I think some really exciting things that we're just starting this year. So I'm not going to say we're going to finish the thing, but my biggest challenge is keeping up keeping all these things going. And luckily, I have a great group of people that I work with.  Mary: Because if you think about all of the ways from the concession stands, and even when people are tailgating and all that kind of stuff. That is a huge area that could be fixed. Right? So how are you… what kinds of things are you talking about?  Andrew: Yeah, I'm, like I said, we're gonna take incremental steps just because of our own bandwidth. But I think students, we have an eco-rep program, and those are students that work in the residence halls here at Furman to encourage sustainable behavior among their peers. They're going to help us with this athletic thing, because we need some, we need some person power behind this because there's some education but you know, you think about like, just think of yourself at a football game or a basketball game and what's served there, you know, and you start to go through sort of the inventory of what you could consume there, and then you start to understand the challenge, right? So you get a hot dog. What is the hot dog served to you in? Maybe some sort of cardboard type of thing? Well, could that become a compostable? I guess cardboard is compostable. Making sure that everything that the food is served is compostable. And then you got to figure out how to compost and collect it and you got to train people to not put what's compostable into the landfill bin. So one of the cool things we're doing and it is with that company Mosaic Color and Additives…they have a compostable fork, that they're working on and it's sourced from US materials, so it's not made in China. And we're gonna pilot using that in men's basketball games this winter, and we'll collect it and compost at Furman compost.  Mary: So that's the innovation right there. With the company.  Andrew: You know, so we'll start with basketball. Our students are also going to be doing… our Greenbelt students that live in the cabins along the lake are going to do some waste audits. So they're going to help us this year understand the waste stream that I didn't describe perfectly there for each of the athletic events. So that next year, we really understand well, like what needs to happen to move towards nothing is going to landfills, either recyclable or compostable. That'll be… that's the ultimate goal with us. So cool, really cool stuff happening there and just thankful to have athletics just super supportive and excited about it and to have Mosaic Color and Additives also, like here use our product.  Mary: Yeah, I heard their CEO talking about that fork.  Andrew: Yeah, and test it in our compost like they're very open, transparent about working together on that. And that is probably, you know, I'm not in innovation and entrepreneurship, but that's a hallmark of good thinking. Right? Mary: Right. That is innovative thinking.  Andrew: Think about systems, think about being open and transparent and creating partnerships.  Mary: Exactly.  One of the things that I find troubling is that we do have people in this country who don't believe that we need to do these things, right, that, that we don't necessarily need to be sustainable. How do you change the minds of people who aren't taking those actions that all of us can take? Or who don't have that same philosophy? Andrew: Well, I would say a couple of things to that. And you're right, you're right. That's a challenge. If you watch the Republican primary debate the other night, you saw someone say that climate change is a hoax. Well, you know, 99.99% of scientists do not agree with that. Right? It's established fact as much as science can be fact at this point that climate change is real and it's driven by humans. Okay. But to your question, which is like, how do we start to convince people? I think one thing to do is kind of what I mentioned earlier, which is…all people are embedded in an economic system that currently is not terribly sustainable, right? It's based on a take from the earth, make something wasted model, and we have to change that. That is a big systems change. So I don't think the way to do it is to place a lot of guilt on other people, because a lot of times we're embedded in a system where it can be very challenging to live sustainably. That's not to say you shouldn't do what you can do. I really think you shouldn't but don't put all the blame on individuals. Instead, you know, let's look at systems change. Let's look like I talked about let's look at training leaders to work in organizations that can flip larger systems so that it's easier for you and I to go to a football game which I think is a you know, I like sports, but I don't want to create a bunch of waste when I'm there. So create a system when I get there, so I'm not generating so much waste. Right. So there's systems work to do. The other thing I would say is, you know, you got to start talking to people about these issues in ways that matter to them. Yes, absolutely. So like, you know, we talked about climate change, you know, if you're a sports fan, I don't want to go to a football game at 12 o'clock in South Carolina, in September. And I think that is going to be a more and more difficult, unpleasant experience if you look at the climate models. So that's something that a lot of people care about. It's part of our culture in the South is to go to college football games. We need to do something. Youth sports are a big thing. Like is it safe to practice in some of the heat and humidity that we're going to encounter? So talk to people about things that matter to them as a starting point, instead of hitting them over the head with you got to change your… and guilt and all that and I think people will start to see that. So… Mary: That's audience, right? You got to know your audience, right? I tell my students that all the time. Whatever story you're telling. Start with the audience. You got to know how to tell it based on who your audience is. Right? Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I'm no communications scholar, but I've been in sustainability long enough to know that trick.  Mary: Yeah. So I was looking at some of your history Andrew and I'm going way back a little bit. In undergrad, you were a politics major.  Andrew: Yeah. Mary: Trying to pull that out of my memory correctly. How has that helped you in what you do now? I mean, obviously, your PhD and your masters and everything is on sustainability. But… Andrew: That's an interesting question that you know, I think probably some of the answer that I just gave, you know, politics is about speaking to audiences and convincing audiences so I don't know that without you asking me that question I've attributed the ability to answer that question to that experience, but maybe I think my undergrad at UVA was really more about like, critical thinking and, you know, a liberal arts education. I was a person that did not know what I wanted to do.I knew I was interested in political science and things like that, but I was also interested in the environment at that time, but I hadn't figured out environment… Sustainability wasn't really a thing. I hadn't figured out what my avenue would be there. And I think I know at Furman, we're better at that now, helping young people see the array of professions out there, but for me, it had to be like a winding path.  Mary: Yeah, I was the same way. Was there something that you came across or some event or something that kind of spurred you into saying, okay, this is the direction I want to go in, and I want to get my higher education, get my Master's in that and and go on to be where you are today?  Andrew: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like I didn't read something, although there are certain things that I read that were impactful. I think if you haven't read Aldo Leopold, a Sand County Almanac, you should read that it's both beautiful and was really forward thinking and still applies today. But it didn't really come from reading or studying. It came from like when I was a kid growing up in Spartanburg, South Carolina. My dad would take my brother and I up into Pisgah National Forest, and we would go backpacking. He took us out west, we went out to Yosemite, we went to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. When I was 10 years old, I was backpacking in the Tetons. Mary: That's amazing. I love the Tetons.  Andrew: So you start with like that just and I found interviewing students over the years both at Indiana University where I was before and at Furman, you ask him like, where's your passion for sustainability come from? Usually there's some sort of connection with nature. And for me, that's what it was. And then ever since then, I've been trying to figure out how to make an impact. How do we create a safe space for humanity to thrive without messing up what we got.  Mary: So what has been the most rewarding thing in your career path that you've… because you were in sustainability at Indiana and now of course at Furman. Andrew: That's a good one. You know, I can talk about like, different sort of things that were accomplished either at Indiana University or even at Milliken. I was there for a year. They were one of the first 50 companies to have science based targets for reducing their greenhouse gas emissions, prove targets… and that was really cool because not to say I did that but I was a part of that. That was awesome. We did some cool things at IU around waste and recycling like that system was really not functioning well. And we set that on a path to do much, much better. And that was a big, you know, that's a big campus. So we're proud of some of those accomplishments, but I mean, it may sound a little bit cheesy but truly like when a student that worked with me like as a kind of like here we have student fellows, at IU we had sustainability interns, when they come back and I can see on LinkedIn that they're working on these things or they asked for a recommendation and I'm blown away by like, what job they're about to get. Man that's awesome. And to know I have a little bit of piece of that, particularly ones that I worked really, really closely with, that's really super rewarding. So it's a mixed bag, you know, lots of things. Mary: I totally get that because I feel that way with my students. You know when I see them succeed. So I like to kind of leave our listeners with a blueprint that they can take into their lives no matter what the conversation is about. There's always some advice or just some nuggets of information that they can use. What would you give to our listeners as something that they could take and do right now today? If they so chose to help in sustainability. Andrew: Oh, gosh, I cannot give you just one. I think we kind of covered you know it a little bit but if you're passionate about… I have students, students more at IU and increasingly I think will happen at Furman will come ask me that kind of question like What should I do? I care… what should I do? And there's all those like, personal things that you can do, right? And for college students that can be hard because you're not in control of your living space necessarily. So like you and I, we might ought to look at the energy consumption in our household and there's the inflation Reduction Act, right? So there's a lot of incentives out there for solar or battery and I'm looking at that in my house right now. So those are things but college students, you don't really have a lot of control over where you live, so do what you can. But I think the other thing is think about this as a system. If you want to make a difference, some of the things that you need to do are learn to talk to people about these issues and be willing to do it. And we talked about some tips there like approach the audience with what they might care about. But also don't be afraid to be politically engaged. Because that's probably the highest level systems change that you, that students and any of us can get involved with. So if you have a voice on this, use it.  Mary: That's a good point. I didn't even think about that. Andrew: It's not all technical stuff. It's about driving social and collective collective action. Mary: I want to circle back around to Furman again. What are we doing well, and what do we need to do better? Andrew: What are you talking… on campus or… Mary: As you know, our goal and our sustainability plan is to reduce our carbon footprint. How are we doing basically?  Andrew: Well, so you know, I mentioned one thing that we do exceptionally well, which is that closed loop circular system with food and food waste, and that's fantastic. And we'll be looking to scale out those issues. So as I've talked about compost and athletics and catering and so those are things we do well and we're going to do even better. We have nice greenhouse gas reductions relative to our 2008, 2007, 2008 baseline. Our greenhouse gas emissions have dropped like 37, 38%... Mary: Which is great.  Andrew: … which is very good. We have geothermal on different parts of campus. We have a good size solar installation across Poinsett Highway, so Furman has done a lot of things and so the facilities folks, Jeff Redderson and his team deserve a ton of credit for that.  Mary: We have five buildings that are LEED certified… Am I right in that number?  Andrew: I don't know.  Mary: Okay, well I'll look it up and if you want to know, just email me.  Andrew: Well, I know we had the first LEED building in the state of South Carolina.  Mary: Yeah, Isabella did a story on it. Yeah our podcast producer did a story on it.  Andrew: But what can we do better? Right. I talked about the climate action planning like we need to get to a point where we're looking at our greenhouse gas emissions year over year. And we're transparent about that. And we have a strategy to reduce those emissions year over year. So that's where we're headed. It's as I mentioned to you, it's it's it's challenging. We're not going to make those changes without careful planning, which has already started. So if you think about every one of or maybe not every one, but most of our buildings, this one included, has a natural gas boiler that heats the building. Well, their emissions are associated with natural gas consumption, so we need to move away from that but you can't just snap your fingers because Furman has money in that infrastructure, or that wouldn't make financial sense. So instead, you got to look at well, what's the lifecycle of the natural gas boilers at each building and which ones are coming to the end of there? And then what are we going to do then? We're going to electrify that building, the heating, and what's that going to cost? And so that's the kind of really the hard work that's ahead. And I don't know, I'm just really excited that facilities and other parts of administration are up for that work and yeah, and we're gonna, we're gonna do it. Mary: Andrew, anything else you want to tell our listeners about what the Shi Institute's doing and has in the pipeline?  Andrew: Well, I would say like this, this podcast is about innovation. And I want to thank former President David Shi who just committed a million dollar gift to us and that kind of support you know, whether it's $5, or a million dollars helps us do the things that matter most. So looking at issues around biodiversity loss and climate change and climate resilience. Instead of having to chase grants or other ways to support our work, we're able to… with that kind of support, we're able to do the things that matter most and so that would be a thing that were like, first, thank you and for other folks out there that want to support a group doing great work in the upstate in South Carolina, come talk to us. Mary: Absolutely. Andrew, thank you so much.  Andrew: Thanks, Mary.   Mary: I appreciate it.   Mary: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez.  But until next time, I'm your host Mary Sturgill. Dream big everybody.  

How do you decide to differentiate yourself and your business from your competitors? There's only so much you can offer to owners and tenants before you completely burn yourself out. What if there was a way to benefit you, your client, and the tenants all at the same time while increasing your profit margin? Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they chat with Andrew Smallwood from Second Nature. Learn how a resident benefits package can create a win-win-win scenario for you and your clients. You'll Learn [04:56] Is it Possible to Double Profit Per Door? [07:13] What is a Resident Benefits Package? [21:37] Ways to Protect Your Investors/Owners [25:19] The Pitfalls of DIYing Resident Benefits Packages [32:07] Increasing Profitability with Resident Benefits Packages [39:31] At What Stage Should You Implement a RBP Tweetables “Property managers don't just have one problem. They have a thousand.” “If we can move the needle just slightly to increase revenue, but also just slightly to decrease operational cost, right, it's very easy to double profit margin in a business.” “It doesn't matter how many doors you have if you're not taking anything home.” “It's important for property managers to keep the main thing, otherwise it's so easy to get distracted as an entrepreneur.”   Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Jason: If we can move the needle just slightly to increase revenue, but also just slightly to decrease operational cost, right, it's very easy to double profit margin in a business.  [00:00:15] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, Impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and in life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:52] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:18] All right. So our guest today is Andrew Smallwood of Second Nature. Andrew, welcome to the show.  [00:01:25] Andrew: Hey, thanks for having me excited to be here.  [00:01:28] Jason: So we were talking beforehand and I was expressing how jealous I am of his amazing digital SLR camera. That's so zoomed in on his face. So you look really good today.  [00:01:37] Andrew: Well, we'll keep it on the face because I've still got some like summer workout to do the summer bods. We'll keep it the neck up here.  [00:01:44] Jason: Got it. All right. Yeah, I'm working out too. All right. Cool. So our topic today is doubling profit per door with a resident benefits package. You guys, your name has come up— Second Nature— over and over again related to this topic. So I'm excited to get into this before we get in though. Why don't you share a little bit about yourself? How did you get connected to property management? I doubt you woke up when you were a little kid and said, "property management" Second Nature... this is my dream future. This is what I want to be doing." So there's always a story of how people get into this industry, so.  [00:02:19] Andrew: You know, that's true, Jason, although if I think about every five to 10 year period of my life and where I may have predicted I would be five to 10 years from now, I don't think I've ever gotten that answer right, to date. So, I think I'll probably just stop trying, but really have enjoyed— you know, since 2017, actually is when I found the company at the time. It was called FilterEasy. A couple of years later, we rebranded to Second Nature as we saw our customers were looking at, you know, they had more than just one problem to solve. I think you guys know probably better than anybody property managers don't just have one problem. [00:02:52] They have a thousand. [00:02:53] You know, customer said, "Hey, we love the way you're working with us on this. Like, is there more that we could do there?" You know, rebranded to Second Nature, but I'll be quick with my personal story because I think probably other things would be more relevant to the audience wants to hear, but my background came up and coming up in sales was in sales and sales management for 10 plus years, also got into the nonprofit space involved with the Front Row Foundation, which is a cause I'm still passionate about. They put people battling life threatening illnesses in the front row of their dream live event. And so I'm the board chair for the Front Row Foundation today. I've been involved with them in various roles before finding my way to property management. And yeah the CEO and founder of Second Nature, Thad Tarkington, and I actually worked in the same company, although we didn't know each other super well. We were acquaintances in our previous company. And and I was looking to get into B2B from where I was. And that's what attracted me into the cool business. I saw it was a really great product. The customers really loved it. And that's what attracted me to the industry and I've loved it ever since. [00:03:57] Jason: So what do you think the major difference you see between B2C and B2B? What like really was driving that decision?  [00:04:06] Andrew: Yeah, I think, you know, in B2C, it was very transactional, like, have one meeting. And it was, you know, this was like a luxury house where items just to put that in perspective. And so it was like, you know, an order might be a few hundred dollars or a few thousand dollars, and it was like, if you didn't have an order form in 20 minutes, then you didn't have an order, right? Yeah, there wasn't a decision at that point. And, you know, I got a lot of like professional foundational skills that I really appreciate from those experiences. But, you know, what I appreciated was developing relationships and continually, you know, working to drive success right over a longer period of time with customers. But that was more interesting and more fulfilling and also would involve developing new skills and learning new things. And so that, that's what attracted me to B2B.  [00:04:56] Jason: Awesome. All right. Cool. So let's get into the topic at hand. So doubling profit per door with the residence benefits package. So is it possible to double their profit per door? [00:05:10] Andrew: Yeah, it better be, right? If that's the title of our episode. So, yeah, I mean, fortunately, Second Nature works with a little over 1500, just shy of 2000 management companies across the United States. And if you believe the, you know, studies that have been done out there and benchmarking a lot of property management companies can see their profit per door, you know, somewhere in the 10 to 15, you know, per unit range, obviously some less than that, right. And it's sort of some more than that, but a lot of companies we encounter, that's the range, you know, oftentimes when we encounter them, and the cool thing about a resident benefits package is in 30 days or less, they can be adding, you know, oftentimes $17 in profit per door, sometimes more, sometimes less. We can get into the details of why that can vary, but it can be a really dramatic move. And if it's a fully managed resident benefit package, it can actually be a very easy one to get going. So a powerful step to take.  [00:06:08] Jason: Yeah. I think a lot of property managers maybe don't see this. They don't realize this. We get so focused as business owners in the beginning of just trying to get revenue up, trying to get in revenue, and the challenge is: if we can move the needle just slightly to increase revenue, but also just slightly to decrease operational cost, right, it's very easy to double profit margin in a business. And Sarah had ridiculous profit margin in her business because she's ridiculously efficient. What was your profit margin?  [00:06:41] Sarah: On a bad month, it'd be like 60%.  [00:06:43] Jason: Yeah, so. Wow. And the big secret was she just wouldn't talk to people on the phone. Like that's a big part of it. And still had to talk to people. Yeah. So she's been able to do some amazing things with our clients in increasing profit and profit really per door is the thing that property managers should be taking a look at because it doesn't matter how many doors you have if you're not taking anything home. So let's talk about how they can increase this using a resident benefits packages. Let's define a resident's benefit package for those that have never heard of this idea. Let's start there.  [00:07:17] Andrew: Yeah. So the way we think about the resident benefits package, and I'd say, this is a generally accepted definition in the industry— is this is a suite of products and services that elevate and professionalize the resident experience, right? And so that's the 1st thing that it does, and it's creating an experience that residents will pay for, and that they'll stay for a recurring monthly charge, right? Alongside rent, there's the costs, right, of all these ancillary service. We can get it into examples of what those different products and services are in a minute. But that's what the property manager is doing. They're saying, "we're going to bring a different level of service. There's value in that service." and if there's a cost associated with that service as well, that's how they drive that as a profit center, but 1. That is bringing value to the resident, also protecting the investor from risk, and then the property manager benefiting as well. We call that a triple win. And that's what we focus on.  [00:08:13] Jason: Nice. Yeah. Value to the resident, protecting the investor and what was the third one?  [00:08:19] Andrew: Yeah. And the property manager should be reducing costs and adding a profit center as well.  [00:08:25] Jason: Love it. Okay, cool. So those are three awesome benefits. Now maybe we'll get into some specific examples, but let's go to this first one, the value to the resident. And does this work only in— because I know some property managers right now are listening and "this won't work in my market. My residents are cheap or my residents don't want extra value  [00:08:48] Sarah: or they don't care." [00:08:49] Jason: Yeah, you just want the lowest price possible maybe. So let's tackle the value to the resident. [00:08:55] Andrew: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think first i'd like to acknowledge some of the truth in that, which is that if I look at different asset classes, right, and you look at like multifamily, which has really done a lot of investment, like you think about class A multifamily major MSAs and like there's golf simulators and bark parks and like, you know, three water fountains and like all kinds of investment. [00:09:19] Right. And then generally the way you see them monetized is both as a part of the rent— they've figured out how to, you know, classify their property to place where they can actually monetize that in the rent itself. It's amenitized and then also their services like valet, trash and other things like that, right, that are going to be charged as a separate ledger line item there. And so when we think about single family and smaller boutique, multifamily and scattered site properties and third party managers, you know, and I think about the resident profile of who's running the class A, you know, golf simulators place we were just talking about is probably that's probably different value for that person than, like, you know, your typical couple in their 40s with a couple of kids and a dog right in the suburbs, like they're not looking for the same things, right? And what would be valuable and important to them? [00:10:09] So, I think it's okay to acknowledge that different resident profiles may value different things, right? Where we started. Where we started with this was, okay, we see a future where there's actually a really and truly incredible resident experience. I mean, dozens of dozens and dozens of products and services and bucketing them into what's already required in the lease. Right and so we started with that before going to "hey, what's like standard, but could be opt out or what might be really cool for some residents?" like, you imagine lawn care as an example. That's probably not something that every resident would pay for. And some would choose to do it themselves and. You know, but there's probably a small percentage of residents that really would appreciate having that kind of service done and coordinated for them. And there could be a great revenue opportunity there. So we're working towards that, but starting with the mandatory stuff, that's things like renter's insurance is generally a requirement of the lease, right? That they have it. When you think about paying rent on time, like that's an essential responsibility. [00:11:10] So how can we make things easier by creating a reward system by every time someone pays their rent on time, it actually boosts their credit score, right? Automatically this is happening. It's almost crazy to think that somebody's largest monthly expense is the only one that they aren't getting rewards points for and that they aren't getting credit, you know, benefits of their credit score for. We obviously started with filter delivery service. [00:11:32] Like, they got to change the filters on time, but how do we make that so easy to do? It's going to happen the vast majority of times versus all the friction that gets in the way but otherwise, and on down the list. So, hey, we've kind of tackled these things that are core least responsibilities first, and what we've seen is: yeah, occasionally a resident might say 'Hey, I'm not sure about the value of this," and they need some additional explanation. But when it's properly priced, when it's properly positioned and you've got the right product mix, right, with those things all done together... extremely effective, right, for property managers that hasn't gotten in the way of being able to perform, you know, and drive their core leasing KPIs and things that would create a trade off or a compromise for investors or the managers. So that it keeps that triple win intact.  [00:12:19] Jason: Got it. So what are some of the things that might be included in a residence benefits package?  [00:12:28] Andrew: Yeah. So we just alluded to rent reporting. Every time someone pays their rent on time, what we do is we actually help take that information. Get it to the credit bureaus so that it's building the resident's score and to give an idea of the impact of that, you know, it's common to see 20 30 40 point bumps. There's some incredible you know individual kind of outlier cases where we've seen 70, 80 point increases, right, in individual profiles. People who did not have a credit score before actually establishing the credit score, right? Which is a big deal and when you think about You know, especially today where interest rates and everything has gone like— the cost of credit has just. Like, if you look at the interest rates on auto loans, they've doubled in just the last few years. Obviously, everyone knows what's happening, probably, you know, with mortgages, right? And what's happening the rate on the home loan and credit card, right? Credit cards. Those are really the big three. And you look at the savings. Over somebody's lifetime of having a 40 point higher credit score, they were at some point to purchase a home, purchase one or two cars, right? And, you know, carrying the average credit card debt that American family has. It's 6 figures, right? It's 6 figures in savings of their lifetime. So it's a really big deal. So that's exciting. The rewards points that we mentioned every time someone's paying on time, they're getting cash value, which they can go then redeem in a marketplace where there's hundreds of brands, right? That they can go redeem that everything from practical stuff of Starbucks, gift cards do like, I actually redeemed for some like bamboo pajamas. I don't know if you guys have seen this or any listeners have seen it, but this bamboo— I'm a sucker for like soft material, like tactile stuff. So anyway, I got the bamboo pajamas. That was my thing, but there's wine, there's dog food, like all kinds of stuff from really practical every day to kind of fun and luxury spend, right, that people can leverage that for, and they can use it right away or they can save it up and bank it. They don't lose it over time. You know, the other things we were talking about was on time filter delivery. So as opposed to "Hey," putting it in the lease and saying, "this is your responsibility." but then residents don't know what their size is. They don't know what quality to buy. They don't really know how often to do it, or they're not going back to page 18 at least to remember that. There's all these things that get in the way. And typically it's your residents who have been homeowners previously. That would be like probably the best at doing this. They felt the pain, you know, themselves, or they've replaced or paid for HVAC, you know, bills or oil cleanings or what might you you know, those are generally your best change, but that's, it's a small percentage. Most property managers report 5, 10, 15, maybe 20 percent of residents are changing exactly on time with the exact right filter, exactly the way the property manager would want them to. [00:15:06] So what we did, it's not perfect. You know, Jason and Sarah, it's not like, okay, a hundred percent of the time it works every time. But we actually did a study with the national rental home council across 8, 000 single family rentals, 18 months. And we looked at four operators. And it was A B test, right? So some it's hey, you're relying on the resident to do it in some cases, even leaving some in the closet for them to change. Right? Most of the time they're right at move out right where you left them versus a delivery program where they're being delivered every 2 to 3 months. Exactly when they need to change, and what we saw was a 38 percent reduction in HVAC work order volume, right? Between those getting delivered and those not. And the reason that happens is because you go from, you know, 10 or 15 percent changing them to all, but 10 or 15%, right, change them. That's what drives different resident benefits because they're saving on their energy bill and they're breathing clean air and it's as easy as opening their front door now to take care of that lease responsibility. [00:16:07] So, that's a great one. I'll pause here for a second, but we could talk about renters insurance, which is a big one, ID protection, on demand pest controls, actually the newest feature that we've rolled out most recently, so that's a newer one. A fresher one. Yeah. Happy to dive in more if you guys feel that's appropriate. [00:16:23] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, people understand the list of all the things their brain starts to go, Oh, I could see how this would be beneficial. This would add value to the resident for sure.  [00:16:33] Sarah: So if you if you had a property management company that does not have a resident benefit package currently, and they're looking to implement one, but they're like, "I just don't know, like what I should put in there. Should I put everything? Should I put like just one thing?" Like what is some advice that you have on like what to include and why?  [00:16:52] Andrew: Excellent question. So we can provide a link, I think to you guys the other show, but rbp.secondnature.com, right, is a place that people can go. And we've actually built a contact form there where people put in the state that they're in, sarah. It'll actually pull up the calendar of the person on our team who works with property managers in that area. And so what we generally do in a call is talk about what are their company goals, like what are they trying to optimize for, right? That's the first thing we'll consider. But then really define what you want your resident benefits package to do for you and your residents, investors. Map out that triple win. Once that's clear, the next thing we will do is kind of share, like, Hey, in your market, like your resident profile, your property type, right, your area, here's the product mix, right. And pricing and presentation, right, that we are saying that's a. Compliant, right. Compliant with your local laws and regulations. And then B. You know, is getting the best business results, you know, for that. And so we provide that kind of consultative approach and it can vary. [00:17:55] I mean, the fact of the matter is filter delivery in Orlando, Florida, right, is a different problem than in San Diego, California. Right. So we're not going to recommend the same thing in two different places. We take a kind of like value based approach. Once we help work with the operator to figure out, you know, what that's going to be and what the right fit for them is. [00:18:17] Sarah: That's awesome. Super helpful. And I like that it's like, very customizable because I think this is something that people just, they hesitate on a little bit because there's so many options. And especially when we take clients through pricing. Like, what do I include in my high plan? What do I not include? Like, what are the things that I should— and these are always where we see people get stuck is like, what are the benefits that we should include? And if there's something that really helps them figure out, like, am I compliant? What am I actually looking to do and like what in my area seems to be working well already? I think that would be huge for people. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Thank you.  [00:18:54] Andrew: You know, I'll jump in with 1 thing, and then I think Jason was going to go maybe towards the investor side. If that's where we're going next, but something we saw included in benefits packages early. That we've started to see phase out. Like maybe that could be interesting for people if they've heard about the past, you know, keeping up with this is originally before we had a lot of what Second Nature and other point solutions have been able to do and really productizing and scaling some of these services is. You know, problem is we're figuring out, well, what can I do on my own? And I think some of that is still relevant of communicating anything that differentiates you from a for rent by owner, right, versus a professional management company that you have multiple payment options, right? Maybe you have 24/7, you know, maintenance coordination that somebody can file a maintenance request at any time versus I remember one of my first early renting experiences, you know, I rented from a dentist who had four rental properties and it was like two weeks to get ahold of him to let him know that it was freezing cold in DC. Yeah, I was a college kid that like wore flip flops when it was 10 degrees outside. I didn't complain too much, but you know, thinking about those kind of experiences being a professional, like probably the people listening to this, I would never have that experience, right, working with their company. And so, hey, we do think it's important to communicate those things. Even if you don't monetize them or necessarily charge them in your RBP, it's a good place in the RBP to communicate those differences between a professional property manager and the FERBO. But the one that I've seen phased out were these kind of like early on before there were things like filters and insurance and credit and stuff that felt like really tangible to bring in. We often saw things like, hey, here's a get out of jail free card on late rent, right, or an NSF fee. And the reason we saw that early on is because it was so easy for a property manager to say, hey, this is worth $50, right? Or worth 40. It's like this tangible value of what you're giving, right? As a part of that and communicating it. Because they felt like they didn't have a lot of substance up front. But as more substances come in, we've seen that phase out because people started to realize, well, if I'm incentivizing, you know, on time rent, is that really a triple win for like my team that has to deal with that? Is that a win for the investor? That's not getting their rent on time. And so it's really about how do we incentivize the right behaviors, right? That's good outcomes for everybody. And so that's, that is something that we've seen change over the last couple of years, some of that stuff kind of phase. [00:21:26] Out and focusing on a more proactive and incentivizing what you want to have happen type of approach.  [00:21:32] Jason: Yeah. Incentives matter a lot, especially with tenants. Okay, cool. So let's get into then protecting the investor. So, I mean, I can see how some of these things, just if the tenants are behaving better, it's going to protect the property better, like getting filters changed, things like this. [00:21:51] But maybe you can provide some more detail on that.  [00:21:54] Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think you know, a huge one is if you think about in single family rental and that investor profile, you know, in particular, I think about how important it is to keep the property occupied. Right? And you know, if you can keep a resident happy and renewing, right, renewing their lease, then yeah, that's a big win for the investor versus all that. It's not just the vacancy cost, right? It's also all the maintenance and repairs and everything that has to happen during that time. And so we, I mean, we have a client. They've got a scaled single family rental organization, over 7,000 units that they manage in a few markets, right? And their average their average tenancy is just under seven years. Wow, which is like really incredible, right? And that's not just because they have a resident benefits package. It's more than that. But it's really interesting to see a lot of the property managers really pushing for "how can I drive a great resident experience?" That people will pay for and that they'll stay for right and extending you know, attracting great residents and then keeping them longer. How that drives investor value. And then while they're there in the property, they're taking better care of it. The filters are getting changed on time. There's less HVAC expense, right? 38 percent less HVAC bills eliminates 38 percent of those bills that it makes an investor question, you know, "I got into this for predictable and like risk adjusted returns and then boom, I have this 7,000 expense." [00:23:23] Maybe I'm thinking about selling or do I really want to stick through this or I just ate up the rest of my year's returns, right? You can eliminate those kind of moments. That's really what we're after, right? How do we attack those kinds of moments that you know, create those emotional kind of negative experiences for investors that would make them say "you know, I want to, maybe I want to put my money somewhere else, or maybe I'm not up for continuing this." so we think about how do we create a resident experience so good. Residents don't want to leave. How do we create an investor experience so good, they don't want to sell? They want to buy more. How do we create a team experience so good, the talent wants to be in this industry and wants to grow in this industry forever. And that's that kind of flywheel of what a triple win experience creates.  [00:24:07] Jason: Yeah, I like it. They're increasing the lease renewals. They're lowering their operational costs by not having those happen as often and because they're taking better care of things, there's going to be less maintenance challenges, et cetera, better property care, lower HVAC expenses. [00:24:23] I mean, this sounds like an investor benefits package.  [00:24:26] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, if you look at, if you were to Google resident benefits package, You'll see Second Nature's content, but you'll also see a lot of property managers. And of course, property managers, their website and their content is often generally pointed at property owners, right? And you'll see a lot of the results are like, "Hey, our resident benefits package, how it benefits investors". And you'll just hear it from their mouths, right? It's the things I mentioned and more, like if all of your residents have renters insurance. Guess what? You can get a lower cost on your property insurance as a property owner and investor, right? If that's the case because you're protected from liabilities, especially if there's a master policy in place that has special coverages that protect the investors. Like our insurance products and others that offer great insurance products in the industry. So, whether you're working with Second Nature or not, you know, bringing these kinds of programs and designing things to be a triple win is something we'd, we really encourage people to pursue.  [00:25:19] Jason: Now, if somebody were trying to design this on their own, then they're probably going to have to source several different tools and services, which I'm guessing you guys like have aggregated and some of this stuff is in house, like the filters and some of this you've partnered, I'm guessing, but you've already brought all of this together. So, one of the challenges or one of the concerns is in those situations is the business owners thinking, "well, I'm going to be cheap. I can do this for less if I go and source all these components myself. Is that accurate?" [00:25:51] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. You know, it's funny. I think I was telling you, we had our whole team in Nashville this past week. And we actually brought a couple of our customers in, three customers to have just like a customer panel. It was great for people not in sales and account management roles, like people in finance, people in technology, IT, to really hear directly what it's like to be a property manager and everything else. And Kevin Patterson was with us. He's a property manager, manages about a thousand units out of California. And Kevin was talking about it. He's like, yeah, "I saw what you guys were doing. I'm like, 'I can do this.'" And he is like, "so I bought pallets of filters, right? And had them shipped to my office. And then we realized, oh my God, like now we have to store all these filters and inventory. What a mess. Yeah. I still have some too, you know, two years later." [00:26:33] So, I mean, here's the thing. I would say there's probably a percentage or two, like my observation is there's a couple percentage, you know, of companies out there who are wired in such a way and just so passionately logistically detailed that if they wanted to do, you know, a couple of these things really on their own, they probably could do it. [00:26:53] But I think most property managers recognize. That, "Hey, if I can make $17 in profit per door, I don't have to add to my head count. I can have this whole thing up and running in 30 days and bring that impact to my business." Right. You know, fortunately Second Nature hasn't lost. I can probably count them on a hand or two, customers out of 2000, right? That we've signed over the years. And that's our job, right? It's to continually provide a competitive rate that's attractive, that would make people want to pick us, but I will say this: we've advised a couple of companies who just say, "I want to try it and go on my own." And sometimes with Kevin, like we give them some advice, they end up working with us later. A couple of them have been able to make it successful on their own. We're happy to help, you know, in either case you know, and provide some insight and help avoid some heartburn. I think some things are harder than others, like insurance. Like if you're going to build your own insurance products, you've got to get certain licenses. [00:27:47] And I want to set up a whole different entity and everything else, you know, for that, but you know, some things are easier than others. Some things are harder than others. So it kind of can just depend what we decided to put together.  [00:27:59] Jason: Yeah. I think it's important for property managers to keep the main thing, otherwise it's so easy to get distracted as an entrepreneur. We're like, "let's add this and let's do this," and then suddenly the main thing starts to slip. So you're like, "cool. I'm going to beat that $17 that Andrew Smallwood's going to get me per door. I'm going to get it to $20 or to $30," or whatever. And then they're losing out on hundreds of dollars because they're not getting more clients. They're not focused on the main things in the business and retaining clients. And they're like, "Oh, now we have to do this," because you know, in order to do all of this, it's building another business. Building another business in the business. And one of the biggest problems I see with entrepreneurs, especially in early stages of their development is this idea that they need to just keep doing more stuff themselves and they start like expanding, doing other businesses. They have 20- 30 things. The most efficient model for an entrepreneur is one business. That's the most efficient. Generally, all these billionaires scaled one business, right? They cause they have so much focus. And I think focus is the most important of all five currencies of time, energy, focus, cash, and effort in relation to scaling or growing a business it's focus. That laser focus. And so keeping the main thing I've made that mistake, you know, doing my first conference, what I call my $2 million mistake, because we were growing at a healthy pace and then 300 percent a year, and then it was like, let's do this crazy, big, expensive conference and then sales marketing, like everything had to go towards this conference and it distracted the business because we were on the hook. You're on the hook with hotel. You're on the hook with the vendors, like everything that's going on. And that was really difficult. And that was a big lesson to me that the main thing has to stay the main thing. [00:29:51] It's super important.  [00:29:52] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, you said it so well, like when I think of Second Nature's own outsourcing decisions, right? Like I look at it through three lenses: so one is scale, right? Do I have scale or does the partner of scale? Who's going to deliver value through scale? Right? Second is skill, right? You know, do I have a certain skill or competency? Do they have a skill or competency, right? Who's going to drive more value that way? And then the third is time, which we were just talking about of like your opportunity cost and your focus on what you do and you know, I suppose there's a probably a fourth dimension there of just control of like ultimately the customer experience that you're trying to create can't be created reliably by an outsourced partner. And they're not dedicated and committed to that, or you're not aligned on that. Yeah. That would be another reason to do it yourself. But but yeah, it's, man, I take your point, Jason, of just, it's so easy to be ambitious and want to take a lot on and not stay focused on here's my core competency that I can continually leverage, to drive a lot of value. And here's how I can bring in complimentary pieces around it to create something bigger than that.  [00:30:58] Jason: Yeah. I mean, a big part of what we do at DoorGrow is just getting entrepreneurs to focus and then they start to scale really rapidly. So, I mean, in this industry, it could be diluted focus on different types of properties they're managing because each different type is almost like a different business. They're like, "I'm going to do commercial, I'm going to do associations," and then they're like trying to run multiple businesses with team members that are trying to jump into multiple businesses. And then it's a mess. And they're just not going as fast. And so this I view as, this is like adding on another business, and if you can strap on these tools from vendors, other companies, and get these resources, you can go a lot faster and keep the main thing. So, yeah, love it. So the third thing we talked and we've touched on this in a few instances of how this can help, but the third thing was increasing profit. So, I mean, there's the obvious bump that you're charging a fee for this and you're get convincing the residents. And for the residents, I think a lot of this would sound like a no brainer. They're getting more value in their mind than what they're going to be charged, and then it becomes a no brainer for them to do this. [00:32:03] And it protects them and it helps them get better credit. But let's talk specifically about profitability, like increasing profit.  [00:32:11] Andrew: So, yeah. So I think, you know, at Second Nature, like we do care about the experience and providing convenience to people, but it's also really important to us that there's a strong economic case for all parties. And so the way we often design and the recommendations we make on pricing. I mean, listen, it's a property manager's business. So Sarah, we're going to let them choose, right? Here's it's their pricing that they're charging their customer. We're not going to get in the way of that. That's in their control. But when we make recommendations, which I'll say nine times out of 10, right? If not more. It's set up in such a way where a resident is saving over $100 per year compared to what they're already spending right on the same expenses if they were to go with the status quo, right? Versus being enrolled in the benefits package. And then we make that as easy as signing their lease. There's a clear economic benefit, right? For the resident for the investors with HVAC savings. Everything else we're talking about earlier. Well over a hundred dollars per year in annualized savings for the investor. And then for the property manager, as we were talking about, well over a hundred dollars per year. Right. And so that's when you create new value. The way we think about it is you have a bigger pie that can be shared right across all parties, as opposed to taking the same pie and saying, "how do I shave off a little more for me?" but then you're cutting into the very relationship that you kind of depend on to support the business. And so how can we find new ways to add on and expand the value and share in that value because that makes it really sustainable and that builds trust while also building your balance sheet and so that's the focus and approach. You know we recommend that property managers take when they approach pricing and the other thing I'd probably give advice on here is that some property managers will go about this and then recognize very quickly, "oh, this is the thinking. I can't—" it's so frustrating, right? When I see an owner do this, you know, like, cost based pricing or a cost based approach as opposed to a market based approach. And what I mean by that is, "hey, here's all my costs. I want to make $17 per door. So here's what I'm going to charge, right?" [00:34:21] It's kind of like a investor saying, "well, here's my mortgage and all of my expenses, and I'd love to cashflow $800 a month. So I'm just going to charge this for rent." At which point Sarah tells them, regardless of what the market dictates, "yeah, your property is going to sit vacant for six months or it's only going to be vacant for two days and you way underpriced." [00:34:39] Right? And so the point is, "Hey, here's actually a market based approach to pricing that drives fair value and a good value proposition to everybody." Is the main encouragement we take. And again, if somebody wants to talk to Second Nature, whether they work with us or not, we're happy to advise on what we observe and see is happening in that market as it relates to pricing. [00:35:00] Jason: Yeah, ultimately the market's King. However, there are different segments of the market. So if people are targeting people at the end of the sales cycle that are searching on Google for property management, for example, the market is going to pay less there, because now you're a commodity. Whereas if you capture people in the blue ocean that are not searching on the internet, which there's a lot more of those, then you can charge more, have more fees, et cetera. And they're easier to close, right? And so the other factor lever that we've noticed with our clients at DoorGrow, increasing their profitability is increasing their ability to sell. So their ability to sell services and to sell the value and to create the pain gap between where people are and where they want to be, what value they want. [00:35:46] That ability as well as another lever in which they're able to charge more than their competition and close deals more easily. And there's some other levers as well. And so there's the market's one of the factors, but there are some levers that can be leveraged as well. And depending on who you're targeting in your audience, then you also can charge more money. [00:36:08] So that's something to keep in mind. So, yeah, this is super interesting. So everybody wants to increase profit if they're smart, those of you listening, if you're smart, you want to increase profit, you want to protect your investors, that's like your business, what you do, and you want to provide value to the residents. [00:36:24] So why would people just not do this? Why? Like have they just not heard of a resident benefits package or why would they not be doing this?  [00:36:32] Andrew: Yeah, I mean, there are definitely people that fall into that camp, and I'm sure there's probably going to be at least a couple people listening to this who haven't heard of a residence package. I also think over the last few years, this has been a really hot topic that's been talked about a lot, and people are seeing it more and more. As more companies adopt it, they just see it. Like they see our flyers in the Zillow listings, you know, the second photo, you know, beyond the thumbnail, it's like, here's a list of all these benefits, right, that people are putting in the marketing language or listing language or on their competitor's websites. And so I do think awareness is rapidly growing here. I mean, 101% empathy is property managers are often so busy, right? like just to do the kind of like table stakes of property management. It can take a lot of investment into their systems, into their process. I know that's something that you guys offer to folks and help them with. It can really feel like it's hard to implement a change in my business, let alone, you know, I think this is where Second Nature saw a real problem to solve. Like, how am I going to go through seven different sales processes, right, which is really like 21 to 30, if I want to look at more than just one vendor for a service, right? Go through all those processes, line up all my agreements, get those executed, and get my onboarding and implementation set up at the same time. [00:37:53] And align everybody the same, like consistent experience on going throughout it. That feels like going to Mars, you know, it's like a real big thing to tackle. So that's where we really just wanted to be like the easy button for that and drive, you know, "Hey, we've got a million plus residents on our platform, you know, thousands of property managers that we're working with. And, you know, can we drive some efficiency and pass that benefit alone to the customer," you know, is core to our value proposition. And so that's, I think what has brought, you know, a lot of people to us while we're growing very fast, have earned the reputation that we have, and at the same time we don't take it lightly. There's a lot more work to do. There's still still more change that needs to happen here, but I think the big thing is just the anticipation of all the effort and just the hard work of making any change in your business, right? Is a lot of times what people come up against.  [00:38:43] Jason: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of property managers, people have heard me talk about the Cycle of Suck on the show before. There's a lot of overwhelm. There's a lot of stress, a lot of property managers struggling. They're in a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. They're focused on internet marketing, SEO, pay per click, content marketing, social media marketing, which is the bottom of the barrel owners that are the ones left over, the crappy scraps that fell off the word of mouth table. Like there's a lot of challenge there, by the way, we can help you with that. Reach out to us at DoorGrow. So that may be a big reason why they're just not doing these things that are in their mind, ancillary, auxiliary, and they're not adding this additional value and they're leaving money on the table because they're just too focused on trying to just get their business to eke out a little bit of dollars and, you know, they're stressed.  [00:39:31] Sarah: So I've got a question that Andrew if you have a recommendation on, at what stage would this be easiest for a property manager to implement? Is it easiest right off the bat when they're starting and they have no doors or a few doors? Is it easiest when they have maybe 100? Is it easiest when they get to the 500 plus mark? Or is there a stage at which it's like, maybe it's just in their mind, it feels too hard, and you're like, "Oh, actually, it's really easy, and here's why."  [00:39:59] Andrew: Yeah, great question, Sarah. I mean, here's the thing. Second Nature works with customers who have as little as their first one to two doors and are just getting started, right? A lot of our customers have hundreds or a couple thousand doors, and we work with a few clients that have 80,000 plus units in their portfolio. So we've worked with people at all sizes who have come and started all sizes. I will say this though. I think if somebody has under 20 to 30 doors, even as simple and easy as Second Nature makes it, you know, probably that person would be better served as they're getting their first couple of dozen doors on in focusing on their core operations, their core systems, their accounting platform getting set up. I would recommend probably holding on the— I'm sure my S and B reps are going to be listening to this and being like, "what are you saying, man?"— [00:40:47] And jokes aside, like I have talked to a few people where I've like pushed them on it a little bit. Like, "Hey, they've got eight doors," and I'm like, "okay, so here, this handful of hours, right, that you could spend doing this. Let's add $17 per door times your eight doors. Like, here's the business impact to this, and then what are you going to do with that amount," so to speak, right? And "how are you going to reinvest that in your business? Like, how do you see that as the best use of your time versus spending that going and doing, you know, business development or, you know, generating realtor referrals or whatever your strategy is for growing?" Okay. Your business to kind of that you know, initial point of profitability to support yourself. Like, how are you seeing that? And in one case, he said, "this is my differentiator. This is what I get to talk about in my market that I do that others don't. So it's actually going to help me attract more owners. I really want to do this now." Cool. Like I wouldn't stop that person from working with us, but I'd say generally, probably somebody in their first couple dozen doors is better focused on growing that and getting their core processes in a really stable place.  [00:41:47] Jason: Sure. They can add like one door and make what they would make if I had $17 times eight, right? So if they're focusing on that, but yeah, I get that. So I would imagine then maybe right around that 50 door stage is a really good place. This is where a lot of people start to stack and add vendors and get sort like. Then it starts to make sense to get some leverage because this is a lot of times I call the first sand trap where they start to get stuck between 50 to a hundred, because they're doing everything themselves. And this is probably where they can start to get some additional leverage and add some additional services. [00:42:18] Andrew: So if I can compliment you guys real quick, I saw like the DoorGrow code thing, and I think part of it may have been blurred out, but I think I got like the gist of it, I remember seeing, you know, how you guys had kind of stages. I'm like, wow, that is so cool. And if I was a new property manager, I would love having and seeing a resource like that of just, "man, here's like what I can focus on at this time that's right for me. It's going to get me to the next phase and then what to focus on here to get to the next one." Like what a helpful and useful tool. [00:42:47] So I just wanted to say kudos to you guys for putting that out there.  [00:42:50] Jason: Yeah, thanks. If anybody wants that for free, like they can go to DoorGrow.Com. Click the big pink button on the homepage. 'I want to grow.' And on that page, there's three steps. The third one is a YouTube video, 95 minute training called the DoorGrow Code. It's all about it. So it'll show you how to scale. And we're confident we're doing this with clients that we could take any business from zero doors to a thousand doors in five years or less. If they just listen to us and do what we say at each stage. Yeah. Very cool. So thanks for plugging us. Appreciate it. [00:43:25] Andrew: So I'm solicited. Yeah. Yeah. But it felt right in that moment.  [00:43:29] Jason: Yeah. There's very specific things that happen at different stages. And I think if you are at least at that 50 door stage or beyond, like you'll be crazy not to do this. And I love the idea of getting your resident benefits package as a unique differentiator just to stand out, which will give you more confidence in sales. And when people need confidence, the most is when they have the least doors. This is where confidence is a huge factor for them. Like when we take them through our process of cleaning up their brand, their website, all of this, we're really just helping them with their confidence level to go out and sell. [00:44:04] And they can go out and sell without all that stuff. They don't even need a website. They just need clients. Right. But doing these things helps them. And this is something else I think they can boost their confidence a little bit. And that's worth it. That's worth it for sure. So, well, cool, Andrew, anything else we're missing about this? And if not, then how can people get in touch with you or with Second Nature?  [00:44:25] Andrew: The only other thing I'd say is anybody who's made it right to this point, 45- 50 minutes in, like, I feel like you deserve a medal or something like that with attention spans, considerations fans. So thanks for sticking with us. I hope you got some value today. Sarah and Jason, I really appreciate the opportunity to be here with you guys. I really enjoyed our conversation. I love you guys' energy and vibe you know, excited to get to know you guys better. And and I'd say this if people are looking for you know, more resources and things like that, we've got at rbp.secondnature.Com, there's a bunch of things, we've got articles, we've got the triple win podcasts that we record a bunch of episodes there that people can check out. If that's of interest to them, we've occasionally got events, digital events and things like that, that we're putting on, if they're just looking to learn more, we've got some of those kinds of resources, or if they're looking to talk to someone specifically about what we talked about here today they can find a contact form to do that as well. [00:45:16] And just want to express appreciation to you guys. Again, really appreciate you inviting me on and having a chance to do this.  [00:45:21] Jason: Cool. Thanks for coming on the show.  [00:45:23] Sarah: Yeah. Thanks for being here. I think this is something that if you don't have it, just look into it. I feel like there's not a downside in this anywhere. So just look into it. If this was something that I had known about when I owned my business, man, would have done that in a heartbeat, but, I really think it's something that can like benefit all parties. It can like help set you apart from other people that maybe don't know about this or just aren't doing it yet. [00:45:50] And it sounds like they make it easy for you. I think that you're probably right, Andrew. Like you hit that right on the nose. Like they're busy and they're like, "Oh, this is hard." It sounds like they understand that and they'll work with you to make it easy.  [00:46:04] Jason: Yeah. Yeah I love that you guys are helping people through this process and making it easy. So We'll definitely be pushing our clients to take a look at this episode so that they can start getting the stuff implemented Thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate you. Awesome.  [00:46:17] Andrew: Thanks guys.  [00:46:18] Jason: Thanks. All right So if you are a property management entrepreneur that's wanting to add more doors grow your business reach out to us at DoorGrow We would love to help you out anything else we should say All right, then until next time to our mutual growth. [00:46:31] Bye everyone. [00:46:31] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:46:58] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Market Proof Marketing · Ep 302: The Measure of SuccessIn this episode, Kevin Oakly, Andrew Peek and Jen Barkan! The team is currently participating in fantasy football and Jen shares her stats so far. Together, they consider how to measure the success of an ad if it doesn't become a lead and talk about how everything is hanging on interest rates right now. Spicy Kevin makes several appearances and keeps the conversation interesting!Story Time (06:34)Andrew is trying to figure out how you measure the success of a phone call or ad if it doesn't end up becoming a lead? Or can it be considered successful at all?Jen's daughter is going through the vet school application process and it's made her compare that process to people applying for The Nationals this year.Kevin says that managers and senior leaders who have zero desire to unpack why things are working are insecure in their own ability with what would be revealed. News (31:26)New sustainability tools help businesses and cities map environmental information (https://blog-google.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/blog.google/products/maps/google-maps-apis-environment-sustainability/amp/)In Its First Monopoly Trial of Modern Internet Era, U.S. Sets Sights on Google (https://dnyuz.com/2023/09/06/in-its-first-monopoly-trial-of-modern-internet-era-u-s-sets-sights-on-google/)Mortgage demand drops to 27-year low as interest rates pull back (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/06/mortgage-demand-drops-to-27-year-low-as-interest-rates-pull-back.html)ONE+ By Rocket Mortgage® Is A 1% Down Payment Option (https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/one-plus?qls=QNS_20180523.0123456789)Favorites/Hates (59:50)Andrew watched a documentary film called “The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia” on Amazon. Jen loves that college football is back!Kevin's favorite is a sports jacket and a youtube video by Kyla Scanlon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdBSaG2cujM Questions? Comments? Email show@doyouconvert.com or call 404-369-2595 and we'll address them on the next episode. More insights, discussions, and opportunities can be found at Do You Convert All Access or on the Market Proof Marketing Facebook group.Subscribe on iTunesFollow on SpotifyListen On StitcherA weekly new home marketing podcast for home builders and developers. Each week Kevin Oakley, Andrew Peek, Jackie Lipinski, Julie Jarnagin, and other team members from Do You Convert will break down the headlines, share best practices and stories from the front line, and perform a deep dive on a relevant marketing topic. We're here to help you – not to sell you!Transcript:KevinJen do you know who you want to trade?JenWell, I tried to pull one over on Jackie Lipinski and tried to get Justin Jefferson from her, as if she didn't know who that was. But I did. I did try to offer her a couple of really good legit players, but she denied me.KevinOh.JenYes, I have not.KevinYou're a fantasy football professional, so can you talk right now who's like, if you had to call it right now, who has the best team? Do you think?JenUm, I mean, Jackie has a pretty good team. Mike has a pretty good team. I have a pretty decent team. I mean, I'm really not a professional. I just like to pretend that I know what you want.KevinRight. You won that unicorn trophy.AndrewIt's great.JenYeah, I won.AndrewIt's gold.JenI won once. Yes, but it's really just. It's really just luck. Plus, the way that we do it, guys, is this auto draft. So it's not even like you, you just, just auto automatically picks your players. You don't really have any say in what's.AndrewGoing to have the winners decided with the auto draft.JenSort of yeah.AndrewWell if you don't like such a.JenLineup it says projected standings with Mike Ryan and first place.AndrewSo happens every year somehow.JenTrying to.KevinRAZ Even though he's the commissioner right? Yeah.JenYeah. Like Jalen hurts or your quarterback.KevinLet's see. Here's here's what makes me mad is I had to make myself like math again. Like I failed the honors pre-calculus. And I took it twice. And then I never had to take math again. And I was like, I'm never. I chose a different like, I was like, I'm going to go Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Science because I'm not taking anything close to math.KevinAnd then I had to make myself like math when I became a marketer, became important. Yeah. So it drives me nuts. Like I'm going up against Lipinski and it says projected score of 124 and a half for me, this is 122 and a half for her. Okay. How is it possible that what's going to happen is going to happen?KevinI'm going to get 65 and she's going to have 172. I mean, that's just gambling. That's just randomness.JenThey're just taking average projections. But what happens is somebody could get hurt. They might not even play. Hey, I mean, like, you never know.KevinI just think if we have, you know, I that can take us to Mars and back. Can it give us better projections at this? Like, come on, ESPN, get some GPUs fired up And.JenThen but there is.KevinMachine learning.AndrewHuman.JenTo human factor.AndrewAre reliable, unreliable.JenHuman factor.KevinBut they're all being paid off to like take a fall and stuff anyway. Right. Like it's it's all statistically for sure. Oh, it's all over.AndrewIf there is no drama in the game, no.JenOne wants to think.AndrewIt's like people think all the housewife shows are real. Like if there's no drama, there'd be no show. It's all manufactured.KevinI just think it should show around. You should be like, Here's. Here's that. Every year I am like, okay, I'll give Fantasy another shot. And then after the first two or three weeks of the same thing happening every time, or it's like I should have 180 points and I get 30.JenLike, there's no no, you just have to make sure that your players don't have a bye.KevinI don't. I do believe that never happens the first two or three weeks before I get.JenOkay.KevinSo that's why I was wondering, besides you and Mike, who is most likely to win so I can just trade them my best players now.JenBut now you're playing that game we're not in. Oh, man.AndrewI just opted out this year because now we have enough people. I do convert, you know, I don't feel like I'm like.JenNo pressure.AndrewNo pressure because I was not adding to it. I would I would set my thing, but I was just like, Oh, there's another person playing. I don't watch football. I watched some college football, but professional. But they said on.JenUsually guys, I went to the Virginia Tech Old Dominion game this past weekend. It was freaking electric. I was pretty sure Old Dominion was going to get pummeled, but they played pretty good. You know, that's my alma mater.AndrewSince that's where you went.JenThat's where I went to school, right? I'm a die hard fan. I go, Every time you have a home game, I'm there. But when they started playing Enter Sandman at the beginning, I mean, it was like it. In fact, they when everybody's jumping like that, it registers on the text size. Yeah, my grandma, I don't know what the type, but I registers as an earthquake.JenIt was crazy. Like, I was like, almost. I was so overcome with emotion. I was, I was like, it's not even I mean, look, I pay Virginia Tech a lot of money because my child goes there. So I like either way, whoever won it was fine. But I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I brought me back to Meredith Oliver's fanatical selling and like, we have to our customers need to be fans of, you know, our our business and our brand and our company.JenAnd yeah, I mean, it was it was a thing, man. I was like, I'm all in on these Hokies.AndrewSo you can't replace you cannot replace humans, I guess is what it is.KevinYeah. It's not human to happening this year, but sometimes soon I'm going to have to get my kids to the summit just for like the first 30 minutes and then tell them to leave, because I think that's the only atmosphere that work. And I understand like, Oh, okay, Dad, you do you do real work outside of just talking to your computer upstairs.AndrewOr they might be like, wait, So you go on stage and talk for like a couple of minutes and all these people give you give you money, they listen to you. I don't know. That sounds like a scam. I feel like that's what you promise.KevinNo more sports talk for the rest of the podcast.AndrewNo more sports.KevinLet's start. Walk on to marketers marketing the podcast from the industry leaders. How do you convert where we talk about the current and future state of marketing and online sales for builders and developers across the globe? We're not here to sell you. We're here to help you and to try and elevate the conversation. Is there a topic you'd like us to cover or a question you'd like us to answer?KevinWe'll do it. Simply send an email to show at. Do you convert? Dot com. Welcome to episode 302. I'm Kevin. Okay. And with me today is Andrew Peek and Jen Barkin.AndrewWe're here. It's so exciting.KevinIt's a chat. Are we allowed to announce what's happening?JenOh, my gosh. What's happening?KevinSee, the thing that you're doing?JenAm I doing.KevinFast with the ends with podcast? Oh, are you kidding me? Talking about that? And we're not talking.JenAbout that yet.KevinOkay, we'll talk about it.AndrewI think you just talked about it like it's like, what do you know?KevinWe didn't.JenWe are pretty sure you didn't mind people talking.KevinOh, all right. Well, that's funny. What do you got?AndrewOh, what I got This is a fun question. And I talked about yesterday and this morning, so my. Oh, this could be open discussion. Maybe we make it a parallel to the online sales world. But at the same time, how do you measure a successful ad or how do you measure a successful phone call if it doesn't end up with a lead or an appointment?AndrewCan it still be successful? It's kind of like a gay like principle or like theory. Question This is like the long essay question at the end of an SAT. I don't know if they still do that or not. It's been quite a few years, so sort of open ended discussion. So let's talk about this with Beth, a coach convert and Bryce, a marketing strategist.AndrewAnd it really went down to this rabbit hole of like, oh, you kind of need to be rooted in some type of principles before you decide what is success or not success, because it could be like, Hey, it's really efficient. Was that successful or not? We need every single click out there. Like maybe that's actually the opposite. It's unsuccessful or maybe a very, very limited budget.AndrewSo having a really low or very efficient cost per click is success. Or maybe it's a coming soon community. You need as many leads as you can and you just need to spend as much as can. It doesn't matter what the cost per lead is because the urgency of more leads is significantly more important than trying to save some of the marketing budget.AndrewSo I kind of just gave the answer. It really depends. It really depends. There's no there's no good.JenAnswer, but the right answer as to your.KevinQuestion, it's a hard question. Salespeople leads.AndrewWell, that's it's online sales. People talk.JenAnd I was going to say I was going to say I don't know what the right answer is, but I would think it would be a good ad, would get leads and appointments and sales.AndrewYeah, sounds good to me.KevinYou know. Yeah.JenIf it's a it's.KevinIt's you know, I other maybe maybe land I don't know of a longer purchase cycle for most people to deal with and then homes.AndrewYeah.KevinMaybe mega yachts or airplanes I mean but like if you're shopping for an airplane, is that comparable to shopping for a car? I don't know. Like.AndrewYeah, yeah, yeah. Boats, boats and car boats and there's lots of personalized ocean.KevinLike I've seen lots of visualization tools for customizing your own private jet. Being advertised is like the new way to sell expensive stuff to people.JenI mean, ads are the need though just that really any.KevinWell right but I mean is like the number of decisions and trade offs to consider and you know but at that that's just what makes it all more complicated and.AndrewVery complicated. It's a hard question. Like it's well, it's I think it's.KevinIt's it's the question in advertising. But for us, it's important. Remember that there are multiple parts of the funnel. Different ads serve different purposes for different customers in different stages. You know, you can't I think about this way if you think about a pie pizza and everyone inside of that pie, it doesn't matter if you spend $2 million or $2,000 a month on search, if it's only within that pie, there is always a tradeoff of like if you spend all $2 million and the pie doesn't expand and it's not really pie, it's Rubik's Cube because it's like seven dimensional.KevinBut you you can't have any one tactic that you can just never max out.JenNow.KevinNot just in terms of I guess what I'm trying to convey is it's not just that the ads will get more expensive, but it will not raise the number of people that it reaches if it's defined by a certain radius or shape or audience already and so can't.AndrewYeah, we can't really create a market sort of.KevinWell, yes, but I guess my point is each channel is by definition we don't think about this way. It's own market. Like only the people who are searching can be reached by search marketing. It makes sense. Yeah. If people who aren't searching or they're not searching at every moment of their decision making process. Right.JenAnd so if they're searching, we want to capture them with your.KevinYeah, if they are search, you want to capture them. But you also have to realize that every every line goes back to Steve Schumacher's joke, which you repeat all the time, is if you've got five different things that are viable reasons why someone ends up being a purchaser or they have a realtor, they're referred by a friend, they saw you on a social ad, they did a search, they went on an event and then they purchase who gets credit.KevinBut it's just the acknowledgment that you have to have that every customer becomes a member of multiple channels, advertising channels all the time. And so, like there is this well-rounded ness that I don't think I understood early in my career that now that everyone's I mean, it's everyone's I'm data driven, dated or data driven, and it's like that curve that we get a name Dunning, Kruger data or whatever.AndrewGreater than.KevinFeeling data over.AndrewThat data.KevinYeah, but I would say to your point, what's the word you used to start with a piece that we need.AndrewPeople we.KevinKnow we need. Well, anyway, it's a good ad we need. We need what?AndrewBefore to me is as context we need I don't even know. I don't know where it's just come out my mouth is what usually happens.JenIt's a struggle and.AndrewEventually it forms a sentence that makes sense.KevinYeah, but anyway, the whole world has gone so over onto the data side that for sure there is a serious lack of around principles of thinking principle.AndrewThat we have principles.KevinHere that we will.AndrewLive by principles. That's what we need and building principles come from.KevinThis is the LinkedIn post that I made a little while ago. The principles come from having an ultra deep understanding of what your consumer's experiencing and doing and thinking That's not defined by just asking them, What are you doing? What are you thinking? Because they can't, they can't articulate. They do what's called preference falsification, where they just say what they feel like they're supposed to say to appear good.KevinAnd so you have to have that deep understanding. Just know like, well, of course they're doing these other things. And I don't actually I need data to continually prove to me that they're doing that because I'm constantly watching consumers do what they do and interacting with them and talking to them anyway.AndrewYeah, it's a loaded question. Yeah, we talked about it probably like an hour and a half until yesterday and today. Beth and Bryce. Well, not that single question, but it was a series of question. Yeah, from a very intelligent builder partner of ours. And it was like, Oh, this is actually like, this gets deep. Like you can't that's not a surface level question.AndrewIt's not like, Hey, just check on that. Click the rate, the CPC and conversion rate, and it is your answer because you could have amazing conversion rate.KevinAnd I think.AndrewI just asked.KevinMy sister, here's our episode and she doesn't listen anyway, but she's a CMO now at a at a university, I guess. I mean, sorry, Kristen, but, you know, remember all those bad things she did to me when I was a kid? There's no payback. She she read like a Harvard Business Review magazine article and then, you know, reached out to me and was like, how do I get my team to do this?KevinLike, I read this in an article and it's like, I mean, okay. But I think that's where our prints were. The principles come from Your principles either come from just things you like, observed from afar, or someone else just told you that's a terrible way to develop or principle you can shortcut by getting a coach right? Jenn My coaches help you shortcut to the best principles, but if you're going to your coach and you're like, Hey, I think maybe we should do, you know, squats this way.KevinAndrew Instead of this other way. Why I someone on TikTok said so you're like, Well, I've been in a couple competition. Like, that's, that's not good, right? So I think that's, that's where the friction comes from, is people who have strong principles without strong experience of testing those principles. They just decided it were good principles. Like that's and I it's just important for me to articulate, I guess, to everyone else.KevinAnd our principles don't come from our feelings. Back to your T-shirt. Andrew Yeah, the principles come from the data, but the data combined with experience and observation, not just data on its own. Yeah.AndrewAnd then kind of testing against those principles reinforces the.JenPrinciple, the direction this conversation was going about ads, successful ads.KevinThere. Again.AndrewI think moving it towards online sales world is like a principle on a phone call. Here's the intent of this.JenSo this this kind of plays into yeah, let's just just well, it just plays into the whole coaching and being coachable and wanting to do things the right way and the like. You said, the experience that like our coaching team, do you convert as like thousands upon thousands of hours in the seat. But, but then also coaching and training, I mean, just thousands.JenI don't even know what that might be.KevinHundreds of years. I think if you add up the whole. Yes.JenYeah, hundreds of years. And so it's like when we are speaking from like experience and relevance in the market because we work with, you know, over a couple of hundred online sales specials a month. So we know like what's happening in real time. It's a few, it's like this is yeah, like this is we're not this is not just, are we?JenWe're not is like pulling this out of thin air. What we think like this is what we know, you know, because of what we see on a daily basis. So and you got to be coachable. You got to be open to listening and learning. And I was actually on a podcast yesterday with the homes for Hope program. Yeah, it's awesome.JenDerek And he asked me something came up about coach ability and I was like, Yeah, you know, as a coach you can, you can be like, we're totally invested in that online sales specialist, right? But they have to be invested back in us. We can train, we can coach, we can lead them to the water. We can't make them drink.JenIt can't make them do that. They got to be invested back. And so, yeah.KevinThat's well, and I'm going to get I mean, you use a spice emoji so I'm, I don't know if you've chilled out since then, but I'm going to bring some spice back. So I feel, I think it's not the right word. I don't want use that word. There are absolutely managers and senior leaders out there who have zero desire to unpack why things work are working, and that it seems to be my hunch would be my hunch would be managers told me my wife, that I should never use that word.KevinDo people not use the word hunch anymore?JenI just know. Yeah, I use that hunch.KevinOkay. She's like, when you use that word, stop it.AndrewIs it like, quote, a word? I don't know if like that. That phrase.JenLike moist.KevinYou know, my hunch is that they are insecure in their own ability with whatever it is that would be unpacked.JenAbsolutely.KevinAnd that leads them to be like, nope, don't want to like results are good, don't care about. And I'll give you the tangible example here. There is a builder we were speaking with who it looked like the online salesperson was averaging like 30 to 40 leads a month for the last six months. Okay. And we were on a quarterly leadership call and our online sales coach, working with that person has been talking about things a certain way based upon an understanding that that lead volume, by the way, that lead volume is given by the LSC in the reporting that we use, it comes from the CRM, but he's always have the availability to make sureKevinthe numbers are accurate and consistent. So our leadership and the leadership sales manager, VP of Sales Marketing is like, Oh no, no, no. That only gets like way more than that. We're talking like a hundred plus more leads a month than what that is showing. But it's in this other system that doesn't talk to our CRM and, and I was like, well, that's why for about an issue, I don't know, two years we've recommended to stop using that thing and sorry the answer came back was but it's working really well for us.KevinLike how do you know?JenDo you know.KevinBecause you're your online salesperson doesn't know. Apparently because they don't, they don't count those things. There's no tracking of of how those people are followed up with. And what it boils down to is it's just someone who's highly uncomfortable with the use of technology themselves, someone somewhere told them or whatever, like this is a good thing to use and things are going fine enough, but that's just a that's a huge blind spot that is going to cause massive panic at some point that could be avoided if you just.JenHear.KevinMore about how you how you got to that end result.JenThere is definitely a.KevinKnow.JenYou know, listen online sales contribution is so high. I mean, 45 to 50%.KevinOf.JenSales are coming from this program. But there's still this disconnect of the resources, the support, the time spent understanding, learning the tools, the systems, the reporting.KevinFor this role.JenAnd so there's a lot of like just wild, Wild West happening out there with some of the online sales specialist because there's management is not is not getting in there and taking the time to understand it's it's like you said, Kevin, maybe a lack of understanding or technology but there's also bandwidth issues to feel like everybody is spread so thin and when push comes to shove, we need sales to keep everything running, right?JenSo I'm going to take my efforts and focus on the the sale, the end of the funnel here. But really, we're not going to get sales unless we have a point difference. And if we don't have a point, we got to manage it. So it's really the shift perspective that needs to happen. And I was talking with somebody earlier today that there's still there's still broken parts of the CRM, there's still broken parts of how the leads are managed and things like that.JenAnd it's like, Hey, we've been talking about this for like a year that's still broken.KevinLike, isn't that funny? Like serums As a broader topic, I feel like, you know, there was a time where it was like, are you using Outlook Express or Outlook or like, what's your email client? I haven't heard maybe once in the last two years someone talk about email or questions are around email and how to write their own email client, right?KevinMm hmm. Why the heck aren't serums the same way? It's 2023.Andrew2023. That would stress me out like I won Lead, lost or won. Lee That you lose. I'm like, that could be X amount of profit from one sale of the home that they just ignore that to someone else.KevinAgain.AndrewAnd that just like.KevinAll this.AndrewThat makes me feel.KevinOlder. We're on the call and I'm looking through their CRM system and there were months at a time where not a single prospect was ever entered into the CRM by the onsite sales team. That's like millions more months in a row, not a single lead.AndrewMy that could have been like, that's like, I get weird. I'm like, we could it's like they could have just like, paid someone to pay the whole company notification.JenI mean.AndrewAnywhere.KevinThey were always the lost revenue or. Ms..JenMs. Yeah. Or, you know, just looking at even when we could go on and on about this. I mean, you just looking at like, you know, average appointment to sale number right now is 21%. That's a, that's, that's strong 21%. Right. The average walk in traffic conversion is historically like 10 to 12%. Right. So we go, okay, we're still 21%, like one out of five keep appointments are going to write a contract, but we're still not focusing on that.JenDuring the handoff or making sure that this connection with on site and online is at the forefront of our training and our our discussions. I had some math this episode is all about now. I did some math on Friday where they're right, right now they're at 11% conversion of appointment to sale. And I'm like, if you did these four steps and you were able to increase your conversion to 21%, that's an additional $19 million of revenue.JenYeah, sales revenue, 19 million, 50 million, which equated to like an additional because we did this math in front of the sales team, that's an additional 400 and something thousand dollars in commission or whatever. That's like being left on the table as like when you put it in that perspective, like, well, oh, you know, like just, you know, like these.JenAnd again, this goes back to what we were just talking about, Like we're not just coming up with like, yeah, we think you should do it this way. Like, we know this works. We have the data to support it. We have the conversion metrics to show that this is what the averages are.KevinOkay, What do you think.JenThese four things.KevinOne more thing. Let's just say just for fun.AndrewOkay, fancy.KevinBecause no one else is listening. Right? Lower left lead to employment ratio. Yeah. Is currently.AndrewCan brighten 18.KevinPercent and our and our average benchmark currently is.Jen40.Kevin40. Okay lead to of women.JenWill get to women. Yeah.KevinMy favorite is when the person who has an 18% lead to appointment currently is again the one suggesting that they have found a better way something comes out. I mean and this is where this is where our approaches differ because we're all different humans that do convert, as I'm kind of like I mean, I'm going to explain to you why there's that.KevinThat's a bad idea. But you don't I would say to everyone, like, you don't pay me enough to make your decision for you. So, I mean, try it for a week or two, but not longer because you can't afford to go to five. Like 18 is bad enough. Let's get you to 35 with these proven things right first.KevinOh, yeah.JenYeah. Now, I just say that.KevinJohn, about that school application, I.JenOh, man, I feel like I you go back to school just by now. You know, I did apply to vet school and I if you guys knew that I did at one time want to be a veterinarian.AndrewSent a telegram I.KevinThink like, yes.JenI didn't get in. There's only 30 vet schools in the world.KevinOhio State is one of the best I hear like, yes, there goes a.AndrewLot of things.JenMy daughter is in her senior year, Virginia Tech, and is going through the vet school application process right now. She's applying and like I think 15 schools out of the 30. Oh oh yeah.KevinIs she going to live here or something?JenI so I said if you if you get into Ohio State you can go to Kevin's for dinner. So you know he'll take care of things every sale, you know, they'll feed you, make sure you're okay. But as she's going through this, you know, she's super stressed out. She's having to, like, go back through the last ten years of her life and basically and think about all these things and these prompts.JenIt's like, what's the defining moment of when you wanted to be a veterinarian, Right? So she's having to go through this. And I said.AndrewThese questions are terrible.JenWell, and listen, the vet schools, they only accept it's like the hardest one of the hardest things to get into. They only accept like a 100 out of thousands and thousands of applications. Wow. So I'm like, you've got to do something in this essay to make like to stand out. Like the first sentence has got to be some catchy thing, you know?JenBut it made me think about a couple a different think it's a one. If you are thinking about applying to the Nationals, you should because it's a great way to go through and like you go back into the archives, you just document all of this awesome stuff that you've done in your career and put it on paper. And if you're thinking about doing it, you should go for it.JenBut also make sure you tell this, tell a story that is what is going to help you stand out All in all of those applications that come in. So tell a story, be specific how you overcame something or whatever. But also maybe think about like when we're communicating with our customers and we're sending follow up and we're sending and we're leaving phone messages and we're communicating like you got a you got to spice it up a little bit.JenLike you got to be personal. You got to you got to put something in the subject line that's going to break through the clutter. It's going to make you stand out instead of touching base, checking in. How's it going? Because people's inboxes are inundated, like and they just get so many, you know, especially if if they're looking at your builder, they're looking at ten other builders that are all sending emails that are all sitting to these letters of.KevinWe are.JenAll doing all the things.KevinWe have.JenWe hope. We think, who knows? But you've got us. We've got to break through the digital pollution, right, and cut through the clutter. So that's good luck to Mia. Little Mia.KevinShe's like, Our.JenLocations are due September 18th.AndrewSo 15 of them, But I'd be paying someone to do that, I think.JenYeah, Yeah. That's what I would like to donate to the MIA application fund. But you've got to, like, pay like zillion dollars for all these different applications. So I'm really excited for. So put out some deposit invites.AndrewTo the universe.JenYes.KevinTo see what's her favorite animal is a dogs.JenYes. She's actually doing the research study on cows right now. So she gets to go hang out with cows and draw blood and do little like feeds. She had to, like, pile up on a big, like, green machine and, like, feed them. And I don't know, she's she likes horses, too. She's done some stuff with the horses, but mainly small animals.KevinNot a horse fan. Human kryptonite, those things.JenYou're not a horse.KevinThey can be really good. Yeah. It's not safe. Yeah, that'll.JenOh, they're so beautiful too.AndrewAbout, like, the miniature horses. Those are fun.KevinLittle tiny, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.AndrewWas just to see.KevinWhat would you rather be? Fight one giant hundred foot horse or 101 foot tiny horses?AndrewIt's like running around a little baby horses.KevinSorry, everyone. I'm in some kind of strange, strange minute here. On to the news multiverse.AndrewThis is Earth four.JenHey, online sales specialist, your D convert, Coach Jen Barkin here. Are you looking for guidance, structure and proven methods to help you set more appointments and create more sales? Then join online sales coach Jesse Suggs and myself. We are offering an intense two day virtual training experience, followed by eight weeks of training and coaching through our online sales academy.JenThis fall. Jesse and I have been in your shoes and we teach from our direct experience and years of coaching online sales specialists. Just like you. This will be hands on and real world no theory here. If you're interested, don't miss this incredible opportunity to reserve your spot today by visiting. Do you convert dot.com.KevinMan first up from D and Y use as I stand for, I need to know the news. The news. It's like.AndrewOkay, so two syllables that has generated.KevinThis one wasn't me.AndrewHow about this?KevinSo we're we're using the link and its first monopoly trial of modern Internet era. The US sets its sights on Google. So for those of you old enough to remember, I think the last big Monopoly trial breakup that happened was AT&T.; That was then split up into seven different regional companies in 1984, the article says. But effectively, the United States government is saying that Google is preventing any new opportunity for search to occur.KevinGoogle basically does what Facebook did back in the day. It was like any popular social app. We'll just go out and buy them. I mean, if you guys spend $1,000,000,000, going to spend $1,000,000,000 to Instagram, but it just prevents anyone from getting to the point where they could be a rival. And the charge here is that they're doing that with search and what's going to be so one, it's a big deal.KevinThe other thing is it's hard for monopolies. Monopolies are not illegal monopolies that harm consumers are illegal. And Android Android is was one really smart move by Google of saying we're going to make an operating system that's basically free. I mean, the catch is it has Google search built in as the default option, but it's hard to prove monopoly like consumers don't pay for ads on Google.KevinConsumers don't pay for Google sheets for Google Docs. They don't pay for it. I guess you're getting a lot of, you know, in quotes, free as are straight resources.JenYeah.KevinYou're getting a lot of resources as a consumer that you don't directly pay for. But they're going after it. And I think it's it's not I don't want to say this, it's just a distraction, but it's a really big distraction because this is like a very low percentage chance. But if it does like you, you just imagine working at Google in the senior leadership and you're like, we should be working on AI and we should be making this better and this better and YouTube and oh crap, we are.AndrewThere like we have Mitch McConnell reason out over here telling us what or how to run the business. I agree.KevinIt seems like Google is a monopoly.AndrewI think their monopoly in that they own their own search. Like you Google something, it's the verb, it's what you do versus what you do. I think they're trying to prove, right. Did they do things that were like the competitive nature? Of course they did. They wanted to get rid of the competition. So there's times where I'm like, I don't make any sense this.AndrewI can't stand this type of thing. But then I'm like, we kind of need more regulation over here and like zero regulation and stuff like this. So I feel like, you know, like there's contradictions there with government involvement in business and stuff like that. But this is like, come on, like, this is so dumb. Like everyone that.JenLike it.AndrewOn this thing against Google uses Google likely for their search engine and they're not on asked Jeeves or or Amazon.com or Bain. They're using Google to do it so and there's a reason it's still the better product. And they kind of prove that if even if they did all these, I think that's where the cases is. Probably even if we did not do these things, people would still use Google.AndrewThey're not using Bing. They're not switching to another search platform at all.JenThey're going all use being anymore.KevinYeah, they don't.AndrewEven have points. You can get the search stuff.KevinOn pay, please. Bing.AndrewThey try to pay you. Yeah. You give pretty.KevinLittle coupons or. Yeah. I mean, this is just one line builder here in Texas as an example. But year to date, they have 330,000 unique sessions from Google Search, and they have 13,000 from Bing, 4000 from Yahoo! 2000 from DuckDuckGo Technical.AndrewAnd those are the people, the tin foil hats, but the DuckDuckGo. So yeah, like the conversions, they're like, well, those are the crazy ones, so you don't want those people.KevinSo next from Google itself, new sustainability tools help businesses and cities map environmental information. This is again interesting one to me because Zillow's kind of led the charge of adding all this additional information around property. You know, like safety scores. And I think they also they do have it was started by Brad, Adam and I forget the name of the company where they give like a climate score rating.KevinBut now this is being built into Google Maps platform. They're going to let you see solar energy potential. So it'll identify roofs and talk about the amount of information that likelihood that it will produce a certain amount of power, air quality information and common allergens. That's and so everyone who has a Google map built into their site, you wouldn't, in essence, if you thought that this was important enough to be able to opt for offer a toggle on your own site or experience with access to this same information.AndrewLike it's pretty cool. The solar one is a little bit interesting because our you know, our electricity rates here expensive. We have a moderately large our home 3300 feet so we and I'm home all day so there's no saving of power during the day by turn AC down and we run the AC 23 to 60 days of the year for the most part.AndrewSo we've considered solar. So Project sunroof in our home is newer. Like for some reason, like our house is not in there yet, which is really bizarre. Sort of imagine even like a brand new home. It's obviously not going to be in there, but being that we have no trees because they tore everything down to make it easier and more efficient to develop.AndrewWe have some trees growing, but I'm like, man, solar is like ripe for most new home builds, especially in the South. Like, I think we did do a private survey with our property at one point and like the amount of power we can produce is insane. So I think that's like, oh, that could be that could be a really cool selling tool to go new home construction.AndrewIt's more efficient. Oh, and then now you have solar, the ROI on that. The payback is extremely quick because like you, the efficiency of it for a new home compared to an existing home, an older established neighborhood would be there. So be nice if they I would imagine as it gets use more often the how it refreshes the map and how that would be a little bit quicker.AndrewYeah, just fast for like two, three, five years from now. Pretty cool. All the tools we have.KevinI don't have the exact number, but whoever originally shared this article in my social network also included a stat that I, if I remember it was either close to 50% or like 60% of people who were surveyed had considered at least one environmental factor as part of their search for a home. I imagine both of you living near water in Virginia Beach and near Tampa, that like that's a but even in Ohio, like you can't build homes in a certain level of a floodplain.KevinLet's say 100 year flood, I think is you just can't build in here. So it's kind of surprising in one sense that that number sounded like a good number to use as a stat because I would think like 100% of people are considering like possession of the sun and amount of shade. Yeah, it seems like people who, you know, still quote like, did you know that 94.9% of people use the Internet to shop for a house?KevinAnd like we stop talking about this, it's everyone is like everyone.AndrewJust remember that.KevinAre we doing this? Yeah. Well, like, of course, the environment's a big like, that's what location is. It's all those things wrapped up together. But I mean, do you remember doing, like, a specific thing that you were?AndrewI'm a for me, definitely with hurricane evacuate like we just had a hurricane one week ago that passed by us. So we still had, you know, work zones. I think it's part of the same records and it's like ABCD and then X non evacuate or like a is like you're on the beach or you're a mobile home. The trailer home, manufactured home, no such a wind, wind and water and then B and then we're C, we're actually like B and a half.AndrewLike our kitchen is a B, the rest of the house is a C for whatever reason. So we, we stick with C, we're like, okay, if that gets wet over there, it's fine. We're staying like we're 13. You're yeah, you're gone. You're thinking.JenI'm underwater.AndrewYou're under water. So we're like 13 feet above sea level. You're below sea, you're like a bowl. You're like, you know.JenTraffic is is.AndrewYou have tunnels.KevinSinking. Oh, yeah. Yeah.JenSo you're saying bought a house in the flood zone. And I knew that. So this I'm not a good candidate.KevinIt's gone. But you still porous. I mean, if it was bad, it's.JenOkay to tension Lake. Yeah. Yeah.AndrewIf you need insurance, if you don't like, that's a huge factor.JenFlood insurance required.KevinIt's just a good thing that it's me. It goes in the category of if this place your advantage, you should be talking about it. If you're a builder in Albuquerque, New Mexico, or Southern California or the center of California, and you have now the ability availability to show the potential of solar usage on a on a home like you should be.KevinYou should be talking about that. Definitely. Yeah. All right. Next up from CNBC dot com, we're going to start with the scary and then get to someone trying to offer a solution. Mortgage demand drops to a 27 year low as interest rates pull back the average contract interest rate for 30 year fixed mortgages was $726,000 or less, decreased to 7.2% from 7.3%.KevinApplications for a mortgage to purchase a home fell 2% or 28% lower than the same week. One year ago. So affordability matters, huh? Who would have thought who.AndrewWould have thought of that? You were going to think there's some really smart builders that are offering some bite out of mortgages and I think the show 5.45 or any number less than seven is really attractive.KevinYeah, rates are I mean, again, I think it's catching people off guard. And I don't want to go into an economics lesson, but what's happening right now is that the government has to sell so many more treasuries to fund the government that investors are demanding a higher rate of return. And so, again, people just keep getting confused. It's worth at this point, it's it's kind of like, again, it's September of 20, 23.KevinInterest rates have been kind of a big deal for a while now. So if when I say interest rate, Treasury bonds, Treasury bills, tenure and you're like, whatever, just shut up and move on to the next topic, you should go watch a couple YouTube videos. Well, I'll give yeah, something like this. You know, it's a bit like you have at some point you have to be like, Huh, I guess this is big deal.KevinYou you don't have to understand it to solve it. You again, you can't empathize with your customers, say can't communicate, you can't educate, you cannot build trust. If you're not making any content about this at all because you're scared of it. Like just, you know, so people are like, I don't understand. We didn't raise interest rates or interest rates only went up by X when the Fed.KevinWell, the Fed's not the only factor here. You know, and and so rates are still sliding higher and the government's going to need more money for a while.AndrewSo I mean I think you would say. Kevin and to end interest rates is the I'm trying to think of the right word to phrase it at principal. That's a strong word. I think we all can feel that word. What it means like interest rates, that is the single biggest factor right now, above all everything else, like you could have a purple house with backwards doors and windows upside down, sideways, all this stuff.AndrewAnd the interest rate is right on that single home. Somehow, who cares? Nothing is selling, right? Yeah. Like it overrides the most amazing campaign, the most amazing website, the most amazing content. Yeah. Location. All that stuff is the rate right now. Shoot, we had a home just list in our neighborhood, and it's one that's like, closest to our our size home and like, Oh, what's something listed for?AndrewIt's like seven something. And then I see that's not the Zestimate, the Zillow's I've heard the call their, their mortgage calculator. I'm like, Oh gosh. I'm like, that's a whole different type of person income job life wise compared to, say myself.KevinI mean.AndrewWhen we got it and at this house now we're at two points, you know, like that's a whole different ballgame as far.KevinAs ask your parents for money. I don't know if you saw that Barbara Corcoran video. So. Barbara Corcoran, she's had a couple of these viral comments. I don't know if she just doesn't have anything going on with her real life.AndrewCPR form.KevinStatements that are compelling. But the first one was, of course, like if rates go, go down, prices will go up. So you better buy now. It's like, okay, we just want to look at one way and that could happen. It also could be their rates go down because the economy is terrible and people that have to sell their house and then there's more supply, then demand, and then prices go down.KevinSo either one could happen, but now she's come out and she just her it was one of these like dude bro podcast about like how to get rich quick. She's like, you just got to get into real estate and like if you can't afford it, no big deal. Just ask your parents for the money. Like the boomers have money, just get their money.KevinAnd so then she's just getting trolled. Get the boom so hard by people who are screenshotted that and they're like, you know, in their clearly not rich surroundings. And these are like teenagers even. They're like, yeah, thanks, Barbara. I'll definitely just ask my parents for, you know, a couple million to buy that apartment in Manhattan. And I'm like.AndrewI can imagine the reactions on that would be hilarious.JenWell, you know, just despite the Straits, it's not like, you know, you can easily slip into this, like, dude, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this sucks, right? But when we look at I mean, I just talked to a builders like we had our best month. August was our best month than ever, you know, at their best, Like it was.KevinThe best.JenMonth ever, ever. And, you know, conversion rates are still really strong, even more so than they were first quarter. Like.KevinYeah.JenSo it's like, yes, it's there and it's harder, but there's still a lot of positives happening justifying.KevinWay more there. There are actually way more positives than the negatives. I'm telling you I would rather have rates where they are or higher than I would like to have the same number of existing homes available on the market today as there were in 2018. If that happens, I'm telling you it's not that that is bad. I will find it.KevinA whole bunch of other things. More fire will take an extra couple million homes, you're saying?JenBecause you're saying because the existing inventory is so low. That's yes, it's so good for us. Yeah.KevinThe only common factor, not not the only the main common factor that unites individual markets that are struggling right now are builders are not hitting or exceeding their goals is where existing home supply get This has returned to like normal normal. And it's not like poems are sitting around forever, but they're like this is the same month supply that was like considered healthy is violently unhealthy now because.KevinBecause why? Because if you get the same healthy supply as is normal and demand is still down here, that's not good like you. Yeah. And so anything that reduces supply and this is why people get into housing experiences of like builders don't want to build that. People truly think this is hilarious. They think home builders are like Louis Vuitton and they're thinking of like, you know what?KevinWe'll do here's we'll do Jen. We'll just build homes a little bit slower or we'll make them a little less available just to protect the prices of our homes. Right. They've never met D.R. Horton. They've never met else, you know, Century Jimmy, like some of these builders that just focus on volume like that. It's hilarious. But your point is again, Andrew, 100% correct.KevinWe would not be in this House now when rates went down to three and a half and then kept going lower. I was like, Melanie, I mean, we own this property since 2015 that we built on and we had a loan and still the we were paying off on the land. But the loan on land was like seven and a half percent.KevinYour land aside, you realize that if we build a that's basically the same size as the house we're in now on the seven acres versus a three quarter acre, we all have a lower payment than what we are paying right now, paying the land and.JenThe spray money. Basically.AndrewShe was like, Shut the front door. Kevin, are you serious? This real interest rate, principally.KevinWhat she said like, well, then why.JenAre not doing that will ever see is that low.AndrewYeah. I don't I don't ever want to see that low.KevinBut that's.AndrewThat's.KevinConspiracy. That's what I wish more people would just honestly talk about if it went back to that guess what would happen like there's there is my friend Rob John says that you know there's just that these are the five these are four days and we added a fifth I think. But deaths, diamonds, diapers, divorce, divorce and displacement like physical, those are the reasons people move.KevinYeah, those reasons haven't stopped.JenRight.KevinWhat has stopped is the availability to easily move around.JenRight.KevinAnd transact. And so that means that I think it's very likely that when rates do go down, there's going to be a whole bunch of people just like the the race was on and people realized that there are still going to make money During the factors. Half of the world was shut down. The race was on to buy things and do things and get things.KevinI think there's a whole bunch of people who the minute rates get below 500 are like, Oh, this is our chance. We got we've got to say this. Yes, we made the dumbest decision ever to move to Nowhere Vermont and work remotely and try to raise yak wool on the side. We need to get back home to Chicago.KevinYeah, You know, put their house up 400%. Yeah. And that is. I'm just telling you, whatever keeps inventory low as what I'm in favor of for our industry now as a human being and wanting people to be able to have access to housing, I think it's terrible. Absolutely terrible. Yeah. But it it is it makes the market work right now.AndrewI think there's a lot of people that regret not doing something with the massive amount of equity they have. So they're like this. This might be like, who knows what's going to happen? Like, this is our chance. We have half million or whatever, number two, three, 400,000 inequity. I want to do something with it. I want to move.AndrewSo there's there's a lot of reasons, I guess.KevinYeah. Now, you can't really touch that equity because there's.JenA lot of people.AndrewLook expensive.JenWebsites and looking and lots of traffic to get you know people are looking.AndrewPeople love new.JenHomes. It's just waiting.KevinBut it's to the rescue, maybe.AndrewRescue.KevinTo the rescue, maybe.AndrewLike a rocket is.KevinIs one. Plus buy rocket mortgage, a 1% down payment option. Andrew, you found this?AndrewI did find this. I was actually. So we reified with Rocket. I logged in, we revived like 20, 20, 20, 21 or whatever, whenever it was. And then I saw this as like an ad something like, Oh, they got me. They got me enough to share this with, with the team. Like, this is interesting and it just read the fine detail.AndrewSo it, it essentially it is targeting it's first time buyers or if you're a repeat buyer, but you do have to fit certain income requirements they give you. You could put down 1%. That's all they're asking for, 1% down payment. They'll give a 2% grant as part of that down payment. So you're at three and you could only give up to 3%.AndrewSo there's max down, payment is 5%. So they're making sure that like, okay, they they'll make more money with less down payment. They have more principle to have interest attached, attached to, but then there's no PMI on it. So that's really interesting. But the and the credit requirements to you looking at this, I'm not a mortgage broker. I'm not a finance person, but you're like, okay, 620 or better.AndrewThat's pretty low. I feel like for like what seems in my brain like this seems to be like a higher risk product or, you know. Beth our team was like, This feels really familiar to VR alone in terms of requirements. Like it's it's kind of what the VA offers for military. But there are you know, there's that every mean something I'm not educated enough in this as far as like what does qualified income mean versus income on it.AndrewBut it seems like it is targeting kind of like the middle ish class income levels and that kind of like in number, we're not probably a lot of people that are very great renters. They pay on time. They have no issue with that yet. They're stuck. They're kind of like, I can't get a down payment, I can't get a down payment on houses, keep going up.AndrewInterest rates are higher. I want to get out of renting. This seems to be the perfect thing for them.KevinSo, yeah, my niece, this seems like a product product for and it's not it's not just I'm almost positive this is a government for Fannie and Freddie have kind of somehow this has been devised and rocket does always a really good job of packaging things up. They do easily and simply for people but I'm pretty sure this option exists for from a lot of different sources.KevinBut my nieces, I think she's 24. She's made good money for a couple of years. She's lived with her her mom. She's getting married and she's like, I really want to buy a house, but I can only afford to put down or only want to put down X. Even though she has more money, she just doesn't want to put it on one.JenOf the.KevinMedia.AndrewYou want to have backup? Yeah. You're like, Cool. That which makes sense. Yeah. You think that'd be like, rewarded somehow? Maybe it is like less down payment.KevinBy banks because they know that's more risk for.AndrewThem. It is risk. But another thing I think a take on this too, is if you read it, I think most builders I'll be meaning for a second any incentives, they're usually not great at explaining them on their website. Intentional, not intentional. To me, I think clear is kind of the more direct you are with it, the better conversions you'll have.AndrewSo I don't know if there's any like, Hey, just leave a little bit info out. People want to call. Well, that's not good because it's in the cards you get or confused. People like, Hey, I'm trying to read this thing, you know, online salesperson. Like, well, they didn't tell me either, so I don't really know. I don't really know.AndrewSo I think I.JenRead that deceptive. What itself what are you talking about?AndrewI think it's like 90% clear and at the bottom there are some like really? Well, that number does make sense. You know, about 6000 there but that's not reference in I was little details I think might not be the best.JenAnswer but it's just written the word incentive. Okay. We're like.AndrewIncentive.JenBuying options.KevinHome buying like.JenNew home options.AndrewOkay, I'm buying.KevinI don't know if.AndrewI can tell if you're messing with me or not, because.JenOptions.AndrewFeels like a really weird word. Really? Oh, we should talk about that. And options versus incentives and do a Did you watch the story on Netflix? I'm really distracting this right now, but it's about words choosing words. It's about when oxycodone content was created and they did a group what's a focus group on naming the drug? Like what is morphine mean to you?AndrewThey're like cancer death, my grandmother passing. What does this word mean to you? Oh, headache. What does this word mean to you? OxyContin, Breathing like oxygen and as all positive words. And they're sitting there and you're like, oh, well, this is terrible. Like, if you if you watch another person affected by it, you're.JenSitting there like, so and so and so it's it makes a big.KevinDifference.JenAnd will mean something rid of the word appointment of somebody is like thinking like I blow.AndrewMy mind. I'm stuck in nerd corner only know what's happening.JenAnd now we we were like don't even say appointment because that means that's transactional and the last more stressful. Like if you get an appointment like you're, you're going to go to contract basically what.AndrewWord to be like.JenSo like we don't even say that we were to discovery tours this Discovery tour community visit. If there's somebody who's really like, I don't know, like, Hey, how about let's just touch up with an informational session to get you started? Like, I.AndrewHope they're not like, so, like an appointment. I feel like I'm Jerry Seinfeld, right?JenBut I guess softening that verbiage, that's when like, you know, anyway, I don't know how we.AndrewGot my language is.KevinMy grandma.AndrewMeans something while.KevinShe's still alive. She's 104. So there might be something to this. But her and my grandfather used to take vitamin. Oh, Andrew.AndrewThat sounds made up too.KevinAnd it like had oxygen in it. And I, like, I was, I don't know, five at a time.AndrewI see it now.KevinBut I was so like, I'm pretty sure you can't put oxygen into powder form and shove it inside of a capsule.AndrewLike it's just hydrogen.KevinAnd I think they're probably that's one of the jokers got away with that is they're like, well you're breathing, you know, you're breathing while you're taking it. So you're taking it out.AndrewI guess I need to know what's in this. I found.JenIt. It's like.AndrewWell, I found the Amazon thing, which is terrible. It's it's like a white he gets like a white and blue bottle vitamin. Know about it, But no ingredients. Ingredients aren't even.KevinYeah, well, my father in law also sells total shyster thing. He sells saltwater. It's a cure all. He's from West Virginia. Okay. Okay. And then my mom used to take Queen Bee Rock Royal Honey, It was. It was special honey in gel tabs that only came from Queen Bees because Queen bees have some ideas. Like, why do we all want to live for?KevinOh, wait, I guess that's insane.AndrewSay I'm quality over quantity. I don't know.KevinIf on.AndrewAny given time.KevinI'll just be paying way more attention to cosmetics and vitamin companies. Yeah, because I know more and that's just make up more stuff. It's getting.AndrewLet's make it as.KevinWe have plenty to talk about. That's interesting to them that we don't have to.AndrewMake it and we have discovery tours. We could tell them about this information.KevinOh, it's I like this. I don't know. Do you like this, Kevin? Or do you hate this? Kevin, This Kevin could never appear another episode again. It's just too much cost me.JenHave you heard today? Maybe. Is it too much or not enough?KevinNo, I think I think it's just the knowing that this is my last thing of today. And I get that you.AndrewSo every Thursday for the month of September, I think it's month to September, Starbucks is doing buy one, get one fall drinks after 12:00. Oh they.KevinShould be Stanley.AndrewThey should be sponsoring me. Right. And that's why I went and got one before. Like this little thing doesn't look so little. I don't I'm not a big dude. I'm like, five, eight. But that's in this cup look so dainty. Like, that's a top, but it's the pumpkin cream cold brew.KevinPeople always think this stuff is contrived and made up, but I will add a Starbucks card and all access you all can scan.AndrewAnd they better post a picture using it.KevinBut I'm just kidding. Ha ha ha ha.AndrewYou better use.KevinAll right, let's move on to our favorites or things we hate either in either one. Oh gosh. What are your favorite shows? Books, Things you've watched. I'm going to give away one of my secret favorite thing I like. You know, I share a lot, but then I'm always like, Ooh, that person's got really good stuff. I can't share it with anyone, but I will.KevinI will share it today. You want I start inter Yeah.AndrewYou talk about West Virginia. So we were recommended. I'm not recommending this.KevinI'm just West Virginia. You're you wonderful people. My home.AndrewCountry roads. Shenandoah River. Right. It's a great place. So there's this documentary. I think Johnny, Johnny Knoxville made it so someone from East, right? But it's the wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia. Just watch on the Amazon. It seems like it's a high school project. Someone made an I'm movie and it's about this family the house and West Virginia and Boone County, Boone County, West Virginia.AndrewAnd it's just a train wreck of I mean, you don't watch it and try to figure out who the father is of any of these children. I think it's one person, the great grandfather or the grandfather. It's the craziest thing. But it's about this family that's they're all related interbred. So it's it's it's insane. I'm like, what are we watching right now?AndrewBut someone recommended it to us. So sure enough, we watched it. I'm not advising to watch it or to not watch it, but if you need something that's a change of pace.KevinYou're doing this with, you're like, Hey, watch this thing.JenYou don't need to be. You don't need to justify your favorite. Oh, you're very handsome.AndrewThis is definitely not I mean, this is about a ancestral family that's inbred. It's a little.JenWeird. Are you favoring favor?AndrewI don't know. This is just.JenWild. It's.AndrewIt's interesting when we finish this whole thing, if that says anything. So we didn't turn it off. I've heard people left.JenIt was like the train movie.AndrewNobody watching it was a train wreck. You're like, Wow, this is real. Everybody. When I said West Virginia, so am I, my boom mic. But the boom, my boom arm that I got, the new one, it's perfect. It doesn't.KevinMove.AndrewThe other one's on the ground. I need to throw it away.JenSo not 2

In this episode of the Brief Talk Podcast, host UNB Tim welcomes back guest Andrew, known for his presence on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Andrew shares that he recently came out to his wife about his passion for underwear, which had been a secret. Fortunately, his wife understood and embraced his interest, leading to a more open and supportive dynamic in their relationship. Andrew discusses his upcoming blog post, co-written with his wife, which addresses the stigma surrounding men wearing thongs. They aim to normalize diverse underwear choices and challenge stereotypes associated with specific styles. Andrew also mentions the desire for more inclusive advertising in underwear stores, showcasing men and women together wearing various styles of underwear. UNB Tim expresses his appreciation for the growing community of straight men embracing and sharing their love for underwear. He highlights the importance of supporting partners who may initially struggle to understand their loved ones' interest. Andrew shares that his wife joined him in writing the blog post to provide a unique perspective and help other women navigate their partners' passion for underwear. They hope to educate and empower readers, fostering a more inclusive and accepting environment for all men's underwear choices. The conversation concludes with the shared optimism that men's underwear will continue to gain mainstream acceptance, with the potential for major retailers like Target or Walmart to offer a wider variety of styles, including thongs. Follow Andrew:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/underweareview1Read his blog post - https://underwearreview1.home.blog/Stories- https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=4762569&page=submissions Follow me on all social media as: @unbtim www.twitter.com/unbtim www.instagram.com/unbtim unbtim@kinky.business on Mastadon
Support UNBFor on going support join our Patreon - www.patreon.com/unbblogFor one time support  visit our support page - https://www.underwearnewsbriefs.com/about/support-unb/ You can donate by Ko-fi or Paypal Read more at unbblog.com Follow unb on Twitter and IG @UNBBlog TRANSCRIPT UNB Tim:Hey everyone, welcome to another edition of the Brief Talk Podcast. We have a return visitor today. You know him from many places over the interwebs, from Instagram, Twitter, and now the YouTubes. It's Mr. Andrew, welcome back to the show. Andrew:Hey, how's it going Tim? UNB Tim:It's a-goin', it's a-goin', it's been a week, it's, you know… We're all trying to get new underwear and I'm trying to sell it as fast as we can. But, you know. Andrew:That's right. UNB Tim:Good to have you back. It's been a hot minute since you were on. I don't even remember when you were on. It's been that long. I did not do my homework and looked up when you were last here, but it was probably last year, I would say. Andrew:Yeah, I wouldn't say it was probably like July or August or something like that. So almost a year. UNB Tim:Wow, wow. I didn't think that long. I was thinking November, but oops, welcome back. Andrew:Yeah, yeah, it's been a blast the last year. UNB Tim:So catch our listeners up who may not follow you, what's going on with you, what's been happening in your world of underwear over there. Andrew:Yeah, so I have a underwear blog and I just recently came out with a YouTube channel as well. I would say, I guess just like a do like a quick two second review from the last podcast. At the end of the podcast, we talked about how I kind of came out to my wife about all of my fun underwear, social media networks. I was keeping it a secret because I wasn't really sure how she was going to react to it and everything like that. That was the big splash at the end there where I just came out with everything. I was just sick of keeping the secrets and all that stuff. I was just like, okay, I'm just going to put it all out there and that way she knows of everyth...

Joseph: Mainly because he's a bitter old crotchety man, who wants everything to die?Andrew: Yeah. That's the thing, like, I mean, I think that's something that I actively avoid as, like, a tech professional. I don't want to be jaded. I don't want to think everything's on fire and hate everything.Alan: I don't need any help with that.Andrew: Yeah, exactly. I have my own demons.Show Notes:Re-learning to Work the Soundboard (0:03)Bitter Techies ( 7:30)Collective Tech Debt *is* the Evolution? (10:31)Our YouTube Watch HistoryEvan's list, all the abstraction, & pronunciation anxiety (13:50)Willow's list & short-term memory (22:53)Andrew's resource list (25:45)Alans list & letter confusion (25:55)Agile isn't jira and it isn't SaFE (32:05)Play video games, don't make them (36:00)Errors in code, errors detected, errors of judgement… (40:41)Show Links:Linus Tech Tips – https://www.youtube.com/user/linusTechTipsEli the Computer Guy – https://www.youtube.com/@elithecomputerguyMinnestar societal debt – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aw7777DS58Raymond Hettinger on Python – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UANN2Eu6ZnMTraversy Media – https://www.youtube.com/@TraversyMediaTech with Tim – https://www.youtube.com/@TechWithTimFreeCodeCamp – https://www.youtube.com/@freecodecampJust Django – https://www.youtube.com/@JustDjangoTechWorld with Nana – https://www.youtube.com/@TechWorldwithNanaJayzTwoCents – https://www.youtube.com/@JayztwocentsJohn Savill – https://www.youtube.com/@NTFAQGuySentdex – https://www.youtube.com/@sentdexCodingEntrepreneurs – https://www.youtube.com/@CodingEntrepreneursTabLib – https://tablib.readthedocs.io/en/stable/D&D taught me to be an adult – https://youtu.be/NnMGgWyJ_80Character Encoding Detection with cython – https://hirelofty.com/post/rust-and-python-packagesLofty wants you! Check out our open positions!Support Friday Afternoon Deploy Online:Facebook | Twitter | Patreon | Teespring

INTRODUCTION: EPISODE #100!!! AMOR ES ARTE | ARTE ES AMORLOVE IS ART | ART IS LOVEA memoir written by Andrew Velázquez Through the lens of lotería—the Latinx game of chance, I explore my experience of being gay, young, and a creative loco in East Los Angeles. I reimagine ten lotería cards to represent the people and events that shaped my first 40 years of life. Each chapter testifies to a lotería card image such as El Diablito (Little Devil), La Rosa (Rose), and La Muerte (Death). Using these cards of destiny, I find my true self to navigate the world. My memoir defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid, traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises, eventually falls victim to gang violence, addiction, or suicide. I bring my stories and images together to show how I overcome self-destructive behavior and how I channel my energies toward a successful career in Hollywood's beauty industry. I tell an against-the-odds life story that connects self-acceptance to art and love. Andrew is also a makeup artist:This born and bred Angeleno always knew he was meant for a career in beauty. Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars including Lady Gaga, Michelle Williams, RuPaul, Demi Levato, Neil Patrick Harris & Carmen Electra. As a makeup artist on ”Keeping Up with the Kardashians,” Andrew regularly created the sisters red carpet ready looks and at the 2010 MTV Video Music Awards, he was the key makeup artist for Florence and the Machine, including applying avatar-like body makeup for her radiant dancers.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Lots of Fan Clacking!!!·      Mí Corazón – Andrew's Makeup Line·      Amor Es Arte, Arte Es Amor – Andrew's Memoir·      Being Raised In The LatinX Community·      MADONNA·      Los Angeles Nostalgia ·      Prevalent Insecurity In the LGBTQIA+ Community ·      Coming Out·      Angels In The Psych Ward·      Andrew On American Beauty Star (Top Three)CONNECT WITH ANDREW: Website - Book - Makeup: https://AndrewVelazquez.comYouTube: https://www.YouTube.com/AndrewVelazquezInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewvelazquez_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrewvelazquezcom CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: ANDREW VELÁZQUEZ [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Andrew Velázquez is here with me today to mark the 100th episode of The Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast, and that is a huge accomplishment. Y'all and I could not be more grateful. Thank you, God. Thank you everyone who listens to and supports this show now, Andrew has written the book, it's called.Love is art. Art is love or amor, esp.He also had the makeup line called me[00:01:00]and do the celebrity makeup artist and alsoan educator.Now in his memoir, Andrew defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid who's been traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises must eventually fall victim of gang violence, addiction, or suicide. In his book, Andrew brings stories and images together to show how he was able to overcome self-destructive behavior.Establish a successful career and bring art and love together in a way that's never been done before.Now Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars all including Lady Gaga, RuPaul Dimmi, Lovato, Neil, Patrick Harris, you name it. He's done. Please listen in as Andrew and I get real and vulnerable with you that are to help someone lonely, isolated, and hurting out there. We love you.Hello all of you beautiful people out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and I have with me [00:02:00] today for our 100th episodes, a beautiful, talented, incredible, lovely. Queer creative with a beautiful wavy hair that you see right there. Andrew Velazquez. Darling, how are you?Hello. Andrew: Good. How are you coming? So I had that, and if you need that sound audio again, that, De'Vannon: God, Andrew: that thing is huge. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. I'm gotta, I gotta get you one. I'm gonna send you one. De'Vannon: Gosh, that thing is to be beautiful. So y'all, so before I get into Andrew here, the 100th episode is a really big fucking deal.And why it is is because most podcasts is, I understand they don't make it to this point. People get into just about anything in this world for all kinds of reasons. And podcasting is one of those things that looks glitzy. It looks glamorous. So everybody wants to go run off and start a podcast. And [00:03:00]then you see most of them, I got like 10 episodes, 15 episodes, you know, or they might do like, you know, maybe like 10 episodes a year.You know, I hit the ground running a year before last, and I didn't stop. I released a show every week, nonstop, every Thursday, you know, you know, unless some shit done went down. But generally speaking, it's every Thursday. And so it's a really big fucking deal to make it to episode 100. This means I'm serious, that I'm committed.This is meant to be and it is gonna be here to stay. Andrew: Oh, happy for you. Congratulations, congrat. Congratulations. So happy for you. It is definitely a milestone. Yeah. Well earned, well deserved all De'Vannon: that. Thank you. And so, when I was toiling over who the hell I could get to, to share this moment with me Andrew's, Andrew's people reached out to me, and his story is so enigmatic, it's so cataclysmic, it's so polarizing, and I felt like I had so much in common with him.He's from Los Angeles. Everybody who [00:04:00] knows me knows the City of Angels is all I talk about. I love la I was out there in the military and everything. I'm obsessed with that city. And when I'm rich enough, I will go back and you know, I'm queer and I love me some Latin men, that's all the dick I used to get when I was out there.I, I've sat on plenty of Latin dick Andrew: and that's right. We're dangerous too though. We're spicy and dangerous. De'Vannon: So am I. So we always, along y'all, he's an author. He has his own memoir out. He and our both 40 years old, he's a celebrity makeup artist. He's worked with Lady Gaga, Demi Vato fucking like everybody.He's an educator. He's a spirit light worker. He is a healer. Y'all. He's, he, he's like me. You know, like, you don't have to worry about what you're gonna talk to with somebody like this cause he is done so much, you know, it's just how we're gonna get through this hour and give you credit. So he is literally [00:05:00] the definition of everything, and that is why he is here today for episode one.Double O tell us about yourself, Andrew: baby. Wow. I mean, that just, I, I have chills. Your listeners can't see this, but yeah. I am so honored to be here for your hundred episode. Congratulations on all of your successes and what you're doing. The service you provide, the light, I feel it, the energy that you're exuding, it's beautiful.And I know that your followers and your audience appreciate that too, because you're healing. That's why good things are coming to you. I'm gonna call you divine cuz I see only a divine human being in front of me and that's exactly what you are getting the divinity of, of life. And yeah, that's, that's my philosophy too is, you know, I first generation Mexican-American parents are immigrants from Mexico.They met in their teens and I was their first born in East La Boyle [00:06:00] Heights. And yeah, being raised in such like a macho area was a little difficult for me for being just a such creative, feminine, flamboyant kid. And everything that I was trying to be a kept being told that it was wrong.Cause you know, where my parents got married, it was like the church. I was raised Catholic, so I got baptized there. I did my first communion, I did catechism. All, you know, knowing that I'm sinning and because I like boys and trying to hide, that was just, It was heavy. It was really heavy. And my mom just was the first to be like my mentor, my icon.She introduced me to Madonna in the eighties, who I'm obsessed with. I am the proud owner of four Madonna tattoos. She's right here. There's, there's other ones. Yeah, this is from erotica. And she just celebrated her 30th year anniversary for the sex book, which was released here in Miami. [00:07:00]And so she was really like my first, I don't know, my first like muse, you know, watching my mom do her hair and makeup in the eighties and just taking me to cosmetology school while she was going.She just was fierce. Just drag hair, makeup, done, jewelry, accessories, and she was my queen. So for her to support my my arts and my interests in wanting to like be creative meant a lot for me. But, You know, helping raise my brothers. Cause I, I have three younger brothers and my dad worked as a mechanic during the day.A tow truck driver at night was a lot of responsibility for the oldest sibling to, you know, be a provider also and be their mentor. So I just remember like, I don't know, watching 9 0 2 oh saved by the bell and seeing the drama there. And I'm like, why don't I have that drama in my life? Why do these teenagers have all these dramas and I'm this perfect cookie cutter kid helping raise my brothers Like, this is not.[00:08:00] Hmm. So I made the drama and that's chapter three in my book called elto, which means little devil, I call it My bad. And that's really where I started to rebel. And, you know, we all go through like self-discovery and just that cross of like youth child into adolescence. You're not an adult. Yeah, it was just like an awakening moment.I went 180, I just flipped. Went from this perfect kid to just rebel partying with drag queens. Met my first club kids, went to the Rays and the nineties in LA was just all rage. It was so fun. They used to call me Space Boy and I would you know, dress in all these crazy like avan garde colorful outfits.And I finally felt like free and liberated with other creative people and, and queer people. Finally, like my first drag queens, you know talking [00:09:00] like Stacy Hollywood, DJ Irene, like these are the people that I used to party with like in the early nineties. Like it was the hard house. That was just the rage, right?Yeah. So Arena Circus the Alexandria Hotel, like, oh, I remember going to a rave at Knottsberry Farm. The K Rave. Yeah. And it was just so lit that these kids were jumping. Because NASP Prairie Farm had never done that. So they were literally jumping the gates trying to get into, into the rave and just like party out all night.But they canceled it right away and they shut it down. So they never had a rave at ATSP Farm again. But yeah, it was, that was, that was very liberating and finally feeling like I was part of this community. But with, with that nightlife there, there's also a dark side, right? There's also like alcohol, drugs and all of that.And finally, like, experimenting with boys and having my first experiences and [00:10:00] just being exposed to addict addiction and then realizing, oh, my mother, my mother's also an alcoholic and has been suffering from chronic depression. And I was basically her like right hand man. So that was the hardest part to, for her to she kind of like rejected me when I finally came out and.I just went through like, like a huge depression cuz here was this like queen that I used to look up to and then she said, no, this is the route you're going. Like, I don't want anything to do with it. And I ran away and left. But, you know, I remember I'm gonna be extremely vulnerable because that's like, what's, that's what's I think the most important thing to be authentic and, and expose like the truth to, to grow and learn from.But yeah, after a couple suicide attempts that were failed, I was [00:11:00] taken to hospital at psych Ward 51 50 where I discovered therapy. And I just remember having this epiphany and this like my aha moment, right? My my reality check where this young Latino man that was in that only spoke Spanish, looked at me and was like, Andrew, you don't belong here.Like you have a light. What? And, and this was, he was only telling me this in Spanish, and he would write me poetry. And I finally felt like, heard, seen and like I existed in that matter. So I remembered that very distinct moment saying, I don't wanna live this life. Like, I don't wanna go down this dark path.I realized the addiction can, can be real. And it's in my, it's genetically in our family. So I chose to follow my passion and my craft and my career. And at the age of 16, I graduated and took my GD and I just started my [00:12:00] my journey in, in the arts and the fashion industry. So fashion school, cosmetology school, and then working in retail, corporate cosmetics truly saved my life and.Here I am now been in the industry for 22 years, gonna be 23 next month. I've been independent freelance artist for eight years now. I'm a memoir, author of owner of a cosmetic company also. And it's all based around the same thing, like my culture, my passion, my craft. It's called Love is art.Art is love because for me, the other one cannot exist with the other. And in Spanish it's called. So that's the story. It's, it's a lot. I mean, to get the detail, you gotta read the book. I can't give too much away, but that's like the synopsis, De'Vannon: right? And so, yo the book covers beautiful, like he said, like the different cards and everything are on the front.[00:13:00]You know, in Spanish they call it Yeah. Good job. Good job. Yes. I was down till, like, a couple of weeks ago and they were complimenting on my Spanish, and now that I'm back here, it's like I can't fucking put three goddamn syllables. When Andrew: when you're in it. Yeah, when you're in it, it just, it just kind of rolls out. You gotta be in, in the community and then, or vela, that's when it really comes out.Exactly. Would all that, yes. De'Vannon: So I wanna go back and touch on a few things that you said. It, it registered me Absolutely heard you said that, you know, you were raised in that macho community and, you know, the, the Latino community can be very machismo, very toxic, toxically, masculine. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and so, mm-hmm.I remember when I was a kid, I was like super femme and everything like that. And I wanted to play with Ken and Barbie dolls and twirl [00:14:00] around and I'd wear my, me too, right? I'd wear my mother's heels and take a belt and make a dress out of an oversized shirt. And and my dad would take me out into the yard and, you know, insult me and berate me for being feminine and try to make me learn how to box and stuff like that.And I'm all like if I, Andrew: yeah, you're, you were in the De'Vannon: military. I went in the military when I was 17, but this is when I was like, in elementary school. He was out there trying to make me a man, whatever the fuck that's supposed to be, you know? I'm like, no, I wanna see what's under Ken's pants. Damn it.I know you're, Andrew: you're. Surprise though. It was just like flat or a little De'Vannon: bulge. Yes, I am a, I was a baby, right, Lester, when I was in the third grade deal with it. Judge me if you wanna. Andrew: And so we all had that. We all had that. De'Vannon: So I wanna know you mentioned you went from being [00:15:00] good to bad because everything was so good.You, you were trying to find the complications. I felt this way too. When I was in the church. I felt like I was a little bit too good when I get kicked out of the church. Then that's when I got caught up with the drag queens and the alcohol and the drugs. I became a drug dealer. Like you had felt, I felt liberated.I felt like I was being myself. I don't know if I was numbing some of that pain from being kicked out of church. I think I was with the drugs and alcohol. Tell me, did you ever get bad into alcohol or drugs or anything like that? Or, Andrew: or were you able to Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes, for sure. I definitely had some partners that, and some boyfriends that I probably were not the best choices.And in my book, this is chapter five , which is the spider. Just to give you a quick history on it, is Mexican bingo game of chance. And I was [00:16:00] mesmerized by all the artwork cause they resembled tarot, which I didn't even know at the time what tarot was as a child. Cause my mom introduced me to this game and my brothers.But later I realizing that with tarot and with Loya, each card has a symbol. So the reason I chose these tens specific cards is because they resonated with the timeline of my life. And so laa for me is the triggers and traumas of all the bad relationships. I'm not even gonna call 'em bad relationships.I'm gonna call them challenging relationships that have taught me because now I'm I'm at the point where I've done a lot of like self work and I mean, I'm still, I'm, I call myself. A student of University of Mother Nature and I'm always gonna be learning. And so all those moments have helped me realize, you know, that we're all just kind of like these lost little souls, like these lost little angels that are trying to like, figure out and navigate where the right path is.So these partners that I had that did have addiction problems [00:17:00] you know, at the time it was fun because like, yes, everyone's partying and you're just like, you wanting your wasted the quickest thing. I remember just waiting in line at Arena with like Mad Dog 2020 boondog, like the grossest stuff, but we would drink the fastest, cheapest shit to just like get the most shit wasted before we entered the club.Cause it was just like, we gotta get wasted before we get inside the club. Cuz we didn't, we were young, it was ages club, but we were not even old enough to drink and we were just, you know, getting wasted to. Loosen up dance and just like party all night. But through that, like fast forward into like my twenties, you know another Latino individual, this is a, I'm Mexican, so this is a different type of Latino.This, he was Columbian, Ecuadorian, and I just was a different world that I had an experience with, like the salsa me mbia, and then just [00:18:00] the, the lifestyle and the party of that culture. It just kinda like infatuated with me. But as as like fast and heavy and dangerous as it was, is as quick as I realized, like, whoa, this is, like, this can go dark.And he would drink all the time, you know, he would do drugs. He started going to like sex clubs and. I don't know what, where I was mentality wise. Like my self-esteem was just shot and I felt like this is the best that I can do, so I'm just gonna settle with it. I don't know, I really dunno where that came from.But I did, I got a D U I because this one time we partied and he wanted to continue to party and was threatening me if I didn't take him to get more liquor, that he was just gonna go to sex club and do like his own thing. So I felt like obligated [00:19:00] to, all right, I'm gonna take you. And he was driving and it was swerving and then I was like, no, let me take over.So a, after getting that D U I, I just, it was like my rock bottom. It was like my lowest of low because of the partner that I had chose the time. And I'm realizing later in reflection, like. I chose these partners for a reason. And I think I was trying to fix them. I think I was trying to groom them up cause I was introducing them to fashion and art and all that as well.And then all of a sudden they would change. And later I'm realizing like you were trying to fix yourself. Like you were actually, you are projecting what your insecurities were onto this individual and it just counteracted and affected you where you took the dark that was being, and, and you know, dark attracts each other, right?Like light attracts light. And so yeah, [00:20:00] I mean I, I obviously I'm not with that person anymore. Very happily married. We're 13 years together now and gonna be nine years married this May. And that's a lot for a gay man. And, you know, our, because it's, it's, but it's like I realized like I had to go through all those.Relationships and those triggers and traumas to, to like really fix me and love me for all of me. And that's when I, I was able to attract and the person that I kind of deserved and earned and, and actually saw me for me and didn't make me feel judged and didn't make, forced me to be something that I wasn't meant to be.You know? So I honestly, I'm even grateful for all those, those challenging moments for sure. De'Vannon: Right. And so I hear maturity, you know, in your words there because you understand how much good things come from the fire, from heat and intensity. You know, you've really [00:21:00]grown in life when you can grasp that and you don't look at problems and things that make you uncomfortable and things that hurt you as necessarily inherently negative, you know, cuz so much So when I, when I hear you talk about like the alcohol and the drugs and the sex, you know, vice.You know, it's one of the things that really take any anybody down in life. They are a gargantuan problem in the lgbtqia a plus community. Y'all, our people can't get picture is, can't get enough. Crystal meth, can't get enough, all that. Can't get enough Dick, can't get enough calm, can't get, can't get enough blow jobs, can't have enough origin for me.Andrew: For me it's work now though. But yes, there's always something De'Vannon: because you've grown to that point and you know, but before you had to go through being abused by all of these vices. And look, I'm not saying that there's nothing, anything inherently wrong with crystal meth and crack and cocaine and orgies and sex clubs.[00:22:00] But you know, bitch, when you at the sex club every night when you, and you leaving your boyfriend at home and not telling him you're going and when, or if you just at sex club every night, you single or you are high, Andrew: like it's gonna take a toll De'Vannon: eventually. It's gonna take a toll. But my point is, I need people, bitch, I need you to ask yourself what you really doing it for.Because after a point is not for the entertainment lonely or are you insecure? Are you seeking validation in these, right. Keep going back. So our community is hella insecure, no matter how pretty, we are always at the damn gym. Six packs, bubble butts everywhere. And don't nobody like the damn self. I don't see what the fucking point is.Andrew: What's the why? What is that all about? Like what? I'm still trying to figure that out. You know? What does RuPaul call it? Inner saboteur. Some people call it little bitch voice. Like, I think it's just learning how to navigate with that. Like it's [00:23:00] never gonna go away. It's always there. However you can. I, I think through writing this book and through the, the experience that I've, experiences that I have gone through have taught me that through trauma you can transform and triumph into power.You just have to believe it. You just have to know it. And, and really at the end of the day, it's being of service to others like, like you're doing with, with your audience and sh and, and sharing the knowledge and the, the growth. And that's, I think that's like the legacy we all need to leave behind as humans is through our, you know, journeys and our experiences that we can share that and, and share the growth and the tools that have helped shape us to where we are in a stable place, that, that truly brings happiness.Then that can also be infectious, just. And addicting as like alcohol and drugs and sex, you know what I mean? Like the positivity can also be just as addicting. And I [00:24:00] know that we share mutual podcast friends with a survivor to thrive and give 'em a little shout out. And they're on that same mission, you know what I mean?And I feel like it's not a coincidence that we've all been introduced to each other for, you know what I mean? During this time when it is the considered the, the most depressing time of the year, which is also my, happens to be my birthday December 27th. And now we're in January, which is melancholy and can be hard for our community or anybody going through mental health issues.So why not lift each other up and why not celebrate your struggles and, and transform them into something good, you know? Mm-hmm. Whatever that means for you. De'Vannon: The, yeah. Yeah. And I am gonna dig deeper into the mental health aspects of your book in just a moment. And y'all, like he said, you know, he's written his book to help the people's transparency that y'all heard me say a thousand times, [00:25:00] you know, is the greatest form of help because we learn and grow by listening to what other people have gone through.It is a trap when we think we're isolated and alone, when really the person sitting right next to us is either going through the same thing or has gone through the same thing. When I got H I v I thought I was the only one. I thought I was gonna die. I didn't know half the damn queens in Houston at the shit too.No one talked about that. We were too busy doing all the cocaine. Exactly. Doing all the cocaine at F Barn at South Beach, you know, and everywhere else. And at Jrs to do rather than to actually have real conversation. And so he, right, Andrea's wrote, written his book in order to help help some of you save your lives, to prevent you from committing suicide, to stop you from hurting other people, to stop you from hurting yourself.Cuz when you read that book, you're gonna know. Okay, this fucker went through the same shit. Maybe it's not just me. It is incredibly empowering to know that it's not just you or as they say over on Survivor, the thriver know that you are not alone. Andrew: [00:26:00] Absolutely. You said that beautifully. So I wanna know, and that, that's really No, go ahead.Sorry. De'Vannon: Yeah. I wanna know, you mentioned Catholicism from in the past. Mm-hmm. Where are you at in terms of spirituality today? Andrew: Like I said, yeah, I mean, I was born into that. It was it was all I knew, like it was, we lived on that block, you know, where my parents got married, where I was baptized, where I did my first commune and confirmation where I became a godfather.It was it was just when you're, when you're Mexican in east LA that's just what it is. Like, it just gets part, it's like peanut butter jelly comes with the territory. But And I I De'Vannon: about today specifically because people are born mm-hmm. Into all kinds of religions. I was born Pentecostal, you know, that's what you're okay for.Your family gives you, I don't feel like, like the learn behavior. Right. I feel like it's more valid once you become an [00:27:00] adult and you consider all the options. Mm-hmm. If you still wanna stay with that, then I think it becomes authentic. But until then you Yeah. What people told you to do. So what, what spiritually have you discovered for yourself?Andrew: I mean, obviously at that point, I, I, as a kid, I didn't agree with marriage only being between a man and a woman. And then, you know, just the, the history of the priests and the abuse and the, all that. I, I didn't agree with any of that. But even, even, even even Madonna too with Journey and her being Catholic and like a prayer and being the first advocate for l g BT Q, putting in her cd in her tape a condom and to protect se use protection for sex and literature on aids.Like, she was the first one to kind of give me a voice. And I, I felt seen, like [00:28:00] just the fact that I knew that I was gay. I felt like I was gonna get AIDS just because of that simple reason in the eighties and the nineties. But I mean, even that's kind of like part of my spirituality. So for me my husband and I go to non-denominational church.We are part of Unitarian. It's more of a communal thing. And it's more of just because they're accepting of everything. And the, the philosophy is to celebrate love, life human experiences. And it's, it's really lovely. I mean, it's. I ki I, I liked it because it brought me a little ba back to the nostalgia of the good things of going to church when I was Catholic.But I'm, I'm a spiritual person by Mother Nature and the universe. I believe in the law of attraction. I meditate every day. I practice gratitude. I journal, I visualize I consider my dogs my spirituality as well. I have dog, I have three dogs, you know, I have dog therapy [00:29:00] with them daily. I practice kind acts with others.I I'm an earth sign, so I love anything that has to do with the outdoors and just going on hikes and doing yoga. We're gonna do yoga tonight. You know, it's being healthy. We're both vegan, we're both animal lovers. My, my cosmetics is vegan and animal cru tea free as well. So I'm just, I'm a spiritual person as far as just energy, you know what I mean?Like this's just. What I love about being a human being is that I'm so connected with Mother Nature and we're all the same at the end of the day. Like there, it has nothing to do about your color of skin, your orientation, your gender, hus in your bedroom, what you eat, nothing like, we're all literally the same breathing things, elements, you know what I mean?It's looking at like, my veins is just like looking at the roots at a on a tree. [00:30:00] When you're like in a plane and you're looking down as the earth shrinks and you see all the little cracks in the rivers of, of earth, those are the veins of earth. It's all the same thing, you know? And so whatever spirituality is for the individual, if it makes them feel special and, and seen and that's, that's all that matters, whatever gives them that like happiness, that joy, that light.And for me it's, its mother nature. So that's my form of spirituality. De'Vannon: Okay. Look, I love to keep me a good garden in the back. I love eating off the, I love riding horses. You know, when I'm not riding Dick, you know, and everything like that. Exactly. Appreciate I can appreciate the fuck out of that. So, I wanna go back to this rejection of your mother because you know, she's a, you know, she sounds like the embodiment of a drag queen's in a straight woman's body.She supported you until you made it official. There's no goddamn way. She couldn't have already [00:31:00] known mothers. No, the bitch wasn't blind. I mean, I don't mean that insultingly. I mean that You're Andrew: good. You're good. De'Vannon: You know, I'm like, girl, you could see, you could read the tea. Andrew: I mean, I was going to the makeup.Yeah. So I was going through all De'Vannon: that. So, So you felt accepted and she already knew what it was. So it almost like for her, it might have been better if you never would've made it a official by saying the words. Hmm. So for those, for people out there, for queer people, especially Latinx people who have been rejected and there is a lot of rejection of L G B LGBTQ people because of how the Catholic church is, your culture is hella Catholic, you know?Mm-hmm. And so take me, take me back to when that rejection first happened and really give me some words to those feelings. Cause I want you to embody what somebody else is going through right there. I want you to vocalize that. Andrew: Yeah. [00:32:00] And 10th grade, and I, I think I had ditched school that day. I lived in a studio that was on the same property.My parents a lot of Mexicans do this where they build homes inside their homes and other. And it's just like a lot of houses. And so I, I, I was grateful for that cause I had a little bit of privacy, but my mom always had a key of course. And so I remember having my friends over the night before and we're listening to like Morris depe.And it was just kind like that vibe wearing all black, my doc Martins, you know, my black bomber jacket and drinking red wine and thinking we're cool and smoking marble red cigarettes. We were disgusting and clothes, but it was just, that was the thing that we did. And I just remember like waking up like hungover and it was time for school and I'm like, ah, I'm [00:33:00] not feeling it.I'm not gonna go. So I stayed home painted my fingernails and was just kind of like being lazy and just bumming around the house. And then my mom came in and like, just like, and Mexican moms. Can rage and just open the door and slammed and was like yelling, what are you doing in Spanish? Of course,you know, like all that kind of stuff. It was very . And and then she was like, picking up my jacket, picking up the bottles. She's like, what is this stuff? Why are your nails painted? Why are you dressing like this? What are you doing? Like, what are you gay? And that was the first time she had ever ever asked me that.And I finally like, I was so tired of yelling back and forth to like, I remember we were both yelling so much that we had to take a break to just take a, a breather. And then I finally yelled back and I said, yes, I'm [00:34:00] yay. You know, and a part of it felt good to just finally say it and vocalize it and to put it out into the universe, but also like seeing the sadness in her eyes did not feel good.And I just, I saw her like just kind of shrink and just, that made me shrink too. And then she just said, well, I don't support that. You're gonna have to leave you. If you're not gonna go to school, then you need to get outta here. And she left. And so I just remember feeling rejection alone, abandoned. Why am I here causing so much stress to all these people around me?And, you know, the per, the one person that I, that I thought was always gonna be my hero, that I, that supported me is now like, just telling me to get out and that I'm done with you. You're not good enough. Like when she said, De'Vannon: does she mean you no longer can [00:35:00] live here? Or when she's saying, I can't see your face today, what did she mean as a.Andrew: A teenager, I thought I took it as like, you, you don't, you're not gonna live here anymore. Like, if you're gonna live like that, you're not gonna live here. Like, those are the words that I heard. Yeah. That's how it sounds to me. So I, so I said, okay, and I, I did run away. Obviously I had to come back to get my stuff.And again, just going through the lows of the lows, seeing the alcohol, drinking that some more, discovering Tylenol pm, taking some of those. And the combination of it, I was just like, I was just, I was so sad. I was so alone that I didn't think I was able to get over this, like, low. So I just, I decided I wanted to take my own life.You know, I was gonna try and it [00:36:00] didn't work, you know, it didn't work. I woke up the next day. With my wrists, still bloody, but kind of like crusting and trying to heal just disorientated and dizzy from all the wine and the, the pills. And I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm gonna go to work.I'm sorry to school. I didn't, it didn't work, you know, just put on my bomber jacket, go to school. I'm like, second period, get a call from the school counselor and says, you need to report to your school counselor's office. Get to the office. And they're like, your mom just called and apparently she went into your room and saw all this stuff and is really concerned about you.We need to see your wrist. And so I was hesitant, but obviously ended up showing, and they were like, all right, well you're a minor at this age in Roseville High School, we're not allowed to let you out of our site. We need to report to the center quad area, and we're gonna let you know what [00:37:00] is gonna happen to you then.So I get escorted with the security to the center of quad area. The bell rings and as the bell rings, the gates open up and an ambulance drives in as the ambulance is driving in the doors open and the security is escorting me into the ambulance. All the schoolmates come out running and seeing me getting into this ambulance and girl, I was mortified.I was, I was the most embarrassing moment and just kind of like, that's it. I'm over. I can never get back from this. There's no, there's not gonna be a way to fix this. You know what I mean? It was, it was very heavy, it was very embarrassing and exposing and was rushed off to White Memorial Hospital in Royal Heights, and they pumped my stomach and they stitched up my wrist and.[00:38:00]And yeah, I was admitted to a psych ward as a one 50 minor. It was who continued? Are you okay? Say what? I mean, it was, honestly, it hon, at that point I just surrendered. I, and I just kind of, I gave it to God at that point, you know, and was like, I'm just gonna be reborn. I'm gonna be a child. I'm gonna be infant.I'm gonna just let you guide me. This is where I'm supposed to be now to, to learn and to grow. I, I guess I'm gonna listen to these therapists. So I discovered therapy, which I fell in love with immediately cuz I'm finally being heard. I'm finally having tools and resources to, to help navigate my emotions, my feelings.And then I met that angel That young man that wrote me poems and [00:39:00] talked to me and said, you don't belong here. And told me I was special. And, and I finally like, believed it, you know? And that's, that's when I told you earlier that I made that conscious decision to not go down that route anymore.And I'm, I'm still in therapy to this day. I mean, it's not every week I mean like it used to be, but it definitely saved my life. And I feel that person was an angel. Cause fast forward to later, as I'm going through self-discovery and I'm writing my book and I'm journaling, I'm like, what happened to him?So I tried to research, but obviously through the privacy of hospitals, like they're not allowed to expose any information. But they were like, yeah, you were the only, they said you were the only one there in your room. So what the heck does that mean? You know, like they're saying that I was the only one in my room, but I distinctly remember this.Young man named Miguel telling me, you're, you're, you know, [00:40:00] you don't belong here. You, you need to follow the light. How long was Miguel? De'Vannon: That's crazy. How long was Miguel Andrew: in there with you? I mean, I, I was only in there for two weeks. He had already been there for a month. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I don't remember.We never exchanged numbers. Like So you think, I mean, we had pagers I think at the point, De'Vannon: right? So you think maybe it was, I remember the pager days. Beep, beep, beep, beep. Do you remember Uhhuh, I'm sorry you went through all of this and mental health is a big fucking deal in the queer community because a lot of our issues come from our parents because our parents have their own unresolved issues.The church has told them what to think about their own children. Not, not all mothers and parents are able. Be like, this is my child. I don't even a damn what the church has to say because, you know, our parents have their own issues. And so this is a huge reason why there's a lot of insecurity in our community.It comes from our own households. Now do you think this was son [00:41:00] who was in there with you, perhaps And y'all son, Miguel is just like son, son, Miguel, St. Michael, the Arche angel. Andrew: Yes, yes, yes. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I, it was definitely an angel and I, when my mom I, I was born two days after Christmas.I was supposed to be born like on Christmas, but it happened to be two days after. And she said cuz she was really into Like astrology. And she used to watch Walter Melo, I dunno if you know Walter Melo, who it was like the famous like tarot card reader in in the Latino community. It was like the thing that we watch religiously every Sunday, like after the, the, no, it was Walter.And he would tell you like, capric, Corno, tourist, blah, blah, blah. So she, cause of him, she used to tell me, you, when you were born, the sun, the Earth and the Moon and Mercury were line and you were born at 6:05 AM I, they gave [00:42:00] me you, you, they gave you, oh, sorry, let me rephrase this. They gave me you in a red stalking and as you're going in my arms, I just saw a big star on your head and a light on your right side.And I'm just staring at this little gift in this red, like stalking this and I'm holding it. And so she kept telling me that as I was. Growing up, like you have a star, you have a light on your, so I don't know, I, I can't help but go back to that, you know what I mean? Like go back to these little angels, these little whether it's whoever, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's a drag queen that past life, but she's saving me.That's what I like to I feel like we all have some kind of angel to protect, you know, some kind of either light energy, whatever you want to call it, you know, it could be our [00:43:00] past ancestors or ancestors. It could be maybe your past self and your reincarnate. I don't know. But something was there.It was very prevalent. It was, and it was the moment that I changed my mind. Otherwise, I could have gone down that addiction route. I could have gone down, you know, The gang route and like been in the closet and continued to live this straight life because of course I acted like I was straight forever.Because that's what you do when you're in that kinda environment. Otherwise you're gonna get clocked, you know, and jumped and bullied and I was all those things. But yeah, I, I can only say like now being with my husband, his name is Johnny Debut for 13 years. Accepting me for all of me. My femininity, my masculine side.He, yeah, he's just, he's my homie for life and he's the one that's just [00:44:00] I don't know my mean, like reminded me to love myself too. And I'm just very grateful for that. Cause it's been, we've had a journey on our, on our own as well and the good and the bad and but yeah, we're best friends. He is, he is just been The rock for, for everything.And I'm gonna be that right back to him too. For sure. Hey, hey Johnny, De'Vannon: Daniel, whatever you ask me, introduce Savannah and I'm saying Andrew: hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. De'Vannon: Hey Johnny, how will I get to have cocktails with you one day? Yes. So let's lighten this up as we get, we're down like our last couple of minutes here.So we've talked about some darkness, bring some light, and so yeah, we, we get light through darkness and angels are real. You know, I've spoken about how they've appeared to me before, all kinds of places on the side of the street and restaurants, you know, and there's [00:45:00] been times where it's like nobody else even sees this person in here.And I'm not the only one talking to them and everything like that. I turn around sometimes my husband sees them. Now look, y'all, they don't, I've never had them, except for in dreams appear to me in any sort of glorious way. When they appear to me on the street, they're just plain clothes people. And then we talk mm-hmm.Stuff like that. And I turn around and then they're gone. One of my favorite appearances is one time I was out in my yard, this is the last time I ever touched a rake in my life when I was in high school, raking these leaves. I hate yard work. I'm like, can we get a fucking, can we get a fucking maid? Do you see my nails?I'm queer. I shouldn't be doing this. Ugh. So, so I'm raking this fucking leaves and I hate wet ground and, ugh. This, this, this black guy walks down the street and he's just like, Hey, be careful for those poisonous snakes. Now we are in the hood, you know, just in the middle of the city. Oh, we're not out in the country.Why the fuck would there be a snake? He's like, were you careful of those snakes? The next [00:46:00] pool, there was a goddamn damn poisoned snake flopping all around in. They're trying, oh, hell no. I threw that right down. I'm like, I don't, not a snake. I don't give a damn with my dad. I want me to do, ain't no more chores being done in this yard.I looked up that that guy had told me this, like not a split second, and I looked up and he was gone. And I had something like that happen when I was a kid. You know, they'll show up, say whatever. I looked down and I'm like, he, they can't take nobody. Run that damn fast. You know? Or as or as the Hebrew scripture tells us, you know, we've entertained angels at unawares and be careful how you treat strangers.Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Absolutely talk about makeup. So y'all, like he said, he has own makeup line. Oh,Andrew: it was a good segue. It was a good segue. Had to do it right. And De'Vannon: every time he cls that fan has a title of his book, AOR Art Arta Moore. Or love is art. Art is Love. Yes. So [00:47:00] his first color palette is, is called Me Corone, which stands for my heart, you know, in Spanish. Mm-hmm. Go ahead and hold it up. So, Ooh yes.It ain't no bunny ram harm in making that. That's what I'm here for. That shit is vibrant. Thank you. You know, every now and then, you know I might beat this face up. You know, I'm gonna have to get your shit. Oh, I would love Andrew: to do your makeup. Yes. Let's make that happen. Oh, don't. I'm gonna De'Vannon: be in LA soon. God.I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles, cuz I'm in Louisiana where I live now. I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles it's, I'm there to stay. God. Need to go Andrew: home. Wait, I'm actually gonna, I'm actually wait, I, I'm going to Nashville in February. De'Vannon: That's a bit away from Louisiana still. I mean it might be kinda like Yeah, you're right down here by New Orleans and stuff.So whenever you come to Mar are you ready to do you a Mardi Gras carnival? Andrew: We do [00:48:00] love New Orleans. Yes, I do. I got De'Vannon: you hooked up bruh. So, okay y'all, so he bought this show called American Beauty Star and that, that color palette, he just showed up. You know, go ahead and tell everybody like, you know where they can find that.Your website is gonna be in the show notes. I'm gonna put your link tree so people can find you in case you wanna go ahead and vocalize it. You can tell them where they can find that in your book. Andrew: Thank you so much. Yeah, you. Search for the show on Amazon Prime, just type American beauty star, and you can binge watch me on season one.I'm right there working all the magic. That's where I started writing a book as form of therapy. While we were quarantined, I had no access to devices, so I would resort back to my hotel room and just start drawing and went back to my roots. What brings me passion is that's my, my craft. And then I wrote the book.This has been a four year project. The first year was to [00:49:00] write and edit the book. The second year was to design the cover of the book as well as the cover of each chapter. So I took 10 models and painted them from head to toe and turned them into these characters that you see on, on the cover of the book that represent Theia cards.And through the process of making the body makeup is when I realized there was like a lack of pigment. So I went into product development and that's where I chose to create my first palette, which is called . And you can see like one of the actual models wearing the colors and all the artwork inside is in, is in, is the artwork that's infused into the book.So it's all part of the same brand. And then through that, seeing my models get emotional and hot and you know, sweaty, I decided to also make a fan, which is also part of the same collection. And all the artwork from the book is infused onto the fan. And I lastly have a calendar. Which is good [00:50:00]for 2023.So this is the only way you can get the actual print of each card is by having your Amos Art calendar. So you can find everything on amos art.com or love is art artist love.com and that's where you can shop for the palette, the fan, the calendar, and the book as well. You can also go to Amazon and search for the book and just type Andrew Velazquez.And then my website is andrew velazquez.com for my salon portfolio and all the thanks, beauty tutorials, et cetera, De'Vannon: all the things. I love the options. You know, are you a Sagittarius as well? Andrew: US gays like options too. De'Vannon: You right. That's damn true. So, you know, I'm born on December 16th. I need everything.And so, Andrew: oh, nice. We're close. Capric the 27th Capricorn. Yeah. Capricorn. Oh, you can? Yeah, you can come. I have a [00:51:00] Saurus Rising double Capricorn with the Sagittarius Rising and all my besties are Sagittarius as well. You can come De'Vannon: to the Sagittarius Ki Keani. I'm gonna get you in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is, so I looked up a couple of the videos and y'all, I love Andrew's his Instagram and his YouTube channel or Clutch.He has this beautiful avatar, avant garde look that he does on this girl, which is so like on tempo right now with the way of the water just coming out. You know, he has a Marvel inspiration stuff that he does. Th this, he does full body art, not just face, you know, this is head to toe fear shit, bitch.Here. Shout out to Mama Ru Paul right now. So on, on this American Beauty star. We're gonna talk about Lady Gaga, RuPaul, dim Lovato last. It's gonna out. So you're good before that. American Beauty star. So I look this up. So you got this panel of judges, these people on here doing this makeup, Andrew's in charge of the full scale production for this Oh.Show and everything. And then they will [00:52:00] be judged just like you've seen on Project Runway, you know, all the different things. So Andrew comes out, this stone cold bitch is sitting there with like white hair, you know, white outfit. And the, the person that left the review, I, I don't, I, I don't think that was Christie.I think that was the other girl. And and Andrew: so anyway, it was Huda from Huda Beauty, De'Vannon: right? And so I think somebody might have thought she was a little bit too hard, but, you know, I was just leaving everybody's opinions for that. But you know, Andrew's out there on stage and they're like, are like Andrew and then all the stuff, no, every judge's face just has no fucking emotions.You know how they fuck with the contestants and, and they leave them there in silence. For, for what? Felt like an eternity for me. And I wasn't even the one on stage. Yeah. Felt like Andrew. He's all like, oh shit. The look on the look on your face. We loved your look.[00:53:00]Andrew: That's exactly how it was. Oh my God, you did your research. Well, you gonna be so goddamn dramatic right De'Vannon: now. I'm, I'm sitting here in my house, gimme a cup of tea to deal with this stress. And you know, Andrew did well. He made it to the top three. That's a big deal to be there that long with all of that shit going on.And I love the way that you would talk with your co, I guess competition, friends, I don't know exact term on set. Mm-hmm. You know, in the back. But it's almost like you were there like guide, you know, you were giving them advice and everything like that and like keeping them together. It was very nurturing the words you would say to them on this show.Talk to me about your experience on this show before we talk about Gaga. Andrew: Oh, yes. No oh my God. That it feels, what was it like five years ago? Yeah, it was five years ago. I had just wrapped working with [00:54:00] Tyra Banks on America's Next Top model. So, and that was like the third cycle that I had worked with her doing hair and makeup.And, and what I did while I was on Top Model is I absorbed her like a sponge, cuz I knew that this show, American Beauty Star was coming right around the corner. And so the premise of American Beauty Star was to basically be Tyra Banks create a director. So not only did I have to do hair and makeup, but I had to conceptualize and create the runway for the fashion show design, the wardrobe accessorize, design the nail.I also had to choose the music for the, the platform. I had to tell Emily Rose, the International Vogue cover director to photograph and tell the model how to pose. So all these things that I knew were coming up, I knew like, this is, this is what I do like this. I'm, I feel very good about this. I feel very confident going into this.And I'm gonna come in, in, in a [00:55:00] humble approach. And so that was my intent, right? Going into this and always putting the energy exuding out for my mother's health is what I would kind of like meditate every day on my own. Because they said, you're gonna be quarantined for three weeks. Do you have no access to your devices?You have no access to your loved ones. You're, this is a frozen hard environment, which is basically you can't talk, you can't speak unless the cameras are on. And it's a production strategy to conserve your energy for camera type. But it's also. A psyching test to test your patients, your stress levels.And it's so funny because that's where I started developing this little twitch that happens on my arm. It's actually happening right now as we speak. I don't know if you can see it, like the little eye on the, it's switching a little bit, whatever, to that degree. Yeah. And so and I never had that before until [00:56:00] this show, but because we were only allowed to bring paper and my old school like iPod, you shuffle, I would listen to music like Madonna Ray of Light.Obviously, you know, other people that would like made me zen. I came up with Zen Drew, and this is where I started drawing for the book and creating the concept behind of what I wanted to do. I didn't know I had a concept during the time of the the show though. I just knew that I was like, Journaling.This is my form of therapy. And so I, I, I, I listened to the direction from the judges. A Adrian a Lima is the host who I loved, and she's stunningly gorgeous, even more in person, more so in person. Serjan is our mentor whose Beyonce's makeup artist. And, you know because I had been in production on a reality competition show [00:57:00] before, I knew a little bit more, I had a little more insight on kind of what goes behind the scenes.But now I'm the one in front of the camera place on hard ice. So I kind of knew that there were, there was three parts to the, the production In the morning you would come in, dress in the outfit that you were in the last night's outfit that day we had to recreate for continuity, whatever we did on the challenge last night again.Then we would find out, like you saw with the white snow queen, that we were gonna stay or leave. And yes, I was sweating. My back was drenched and my arm was twitching. But my goal was to always listen to the, the, the feedback and put that into the next challenge. Then the second part of the day was your, your kind of like, your interviews and what you see in between they, they call 'em the confessionals.And so that's where oftentimes they would set you up with the producer [00:58:00] and they would ask you questions and I could pick up when they were trying to alter my answer or get something else outta me. And I would say, no, that's, that's not something that I would say. I'm not gonna say that. Don't ask me to say that.And I, I remember asking for a different producer when I didn't, when I was in vibing that, you know, the, this, this isn't coming out through for my best interest. This is coming out for. Airtime or production, and I'm not here for it. Like I wanna be authentic, Andrew and what I came up with, what's called my Zend.So they listened to that and I went, I had another producer, and she really made me feel like safe, made me feel heard, and, and, and I feel it's because of her. She was another angel that I was able to, to be vulnerable and to, and to be just true. And then the last part of the day was the next challenge.And then you're introduced to a new a new ex whatever [00:59:00] project you're gonna come up with. And I, I felt everybody's anxieties, right? I felt everyone's trying to, like some people were trying to be shady. So the what you see is real, you know, some of it, yes, it's beefed up because they want to stir up some drama specifically on America's next time model.But for American Beauty Star I think they were, they would, they would find. People's strengths and weaknesses and then enhanced them by and, you know what's the tar the right word? By instigating stuff and by asking right questions and by like probing. I wasn't here for it. I think they picked up on that.I think that's also why I didn't win. But I think that's why I made it to the finales because they knew like, oh, this guy, he's well put together. He's corporate, he's professional, but I wasn't drama. You know what I mean? And because I sense everyone else's anxieties, I would try to give them positivity and, and give them zen as and just tell [01:00:00] 'em to, Hey, just trust your, in your intuition.Just go with what brings you joy and follow that regardless of what everybody's telling you. Like follow that. And I feel like that's kind of like what helped me stay at towards the end. Although I didn't win in the winning title, I won so many other ways and growth and exposure and experience, I was able to open up a salon after that.And I'm very grateful for it, you know what I mean? Would I do it again? Absolutely. I would bring it on all stars. I will come back on season four and go up against my students, go up against whoever. And I'll win that. I'll win that bitch. I'll take that bitch home. Hell season four all stars. De'Vannon: Take me with you.I can I can supply the underwear. I'm sure y'all need a pit crew for my down under apparel brand. Hey, I can do something. Andrew: Let's go. De'Vannon: Okay. So then, so as you thank you for that breakdown. I love you had this fabulous experience and I just speak more exposure over you and riches, both in this world and in the one to come and in the [01:01:00] unseen realm too.Yes, Andrew: yes, yes. Between De'Vannon: Lady Gaga, RuPaul and Demi Lovato, which one of these can you give us the most dramatic story from, from working? Andrew: I mean, I can, I can talk about all of them briefly. Who did I work with first? It was probably RuPaul. We, Mac Cosmetics was the sponsor brand for season one, and through that sponsorship, David not only provided the cosmetics, they provided artistry support, which was myself and I managed the pro store on North Robertson in Beverly Hills and West Hollywood.So we were like the flagship that all entertainment would approach for. Sponsorship product, artistry help, whatever it was. So I worked on season one and we were in charge of just doing the guest judges. So I did like Michelle Williams from, you know, Destiny's Child. And Ru [01:02:00] Ru is just great.She's just such a big flirt and just you can feel her energy when she comes into the, the room. And this is still season one, so it was very fresh. I was invited to come back for season four this time through an agency and still do the guest judges and the pick crew as well. So we had to oil them up and and then you can see me actually on season four in the background cause they would sometimes have us be in the audience.And this is the one with Sharon Needles. I think who else was. Fifi O'Hara and they're fighting like on the wwf, kinda like wrestling. So you can see me in the back, like yelling. So that's a little behind the scenes. And then Gaga was through Sharon Gold, who was Madonna's hairstylist during the Blonde Ambition tour.And Sharon we're shop with us at Mac frequently to get product, to get her discount. Cause we offer, they offered a pro membership [01:03:00] discount for anybody in the industry. And so she hit us up once and said, Hey, I'm coming in tomorrow. Can you make sure that we have. A little private area. Yeah, absolutely.Yeah. We're gonna need your face charts, your pigments, and some brushes. I have an artist a musician that I'd love to introduce you guys to. She's new. She's up and coming. Okay, great. This is like during MySpace, right? So she was, they kept calling her a MySpace artist. I'm like, all right, cool, whatever.MySpace come in. All good. So here I meet this little tiny brunettes you know, skinny young, like 20 year old. She was like, twinky, right? Her name is Stephanie. And she is like, how do you, what do you do with these space charts? Show me how to use these space charts. I'm doing this music video and I want you to work on the music video.I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah. So I was Sharon's assistant for the music video love game. But again, not knowing who this individual was, I didn't even know her artist's name until we got to the set. And now they're saying, oh, you're working with Lady Gaga? Who's Lady Gaga? What is that? What does that [01:04:00] mean?And literally, In like a matter of two weeks, she was on logo Next, next now award show and overnight she just became this huge sensation and her album just like skyrocketed. And that was it. Like that was the one time consulting with her in the store and then working in the music video. And I will forever take that to my grave cause she's Queen, you know, to all of our LGBTQ community as well.And then Demi was for another big queer moment during the la gay Pride. And I was in charge of the avant garde body makeups. And I was also able to do her like glam that morning for a really don't care music video. So it was a 13 hour day. She's such a hard worker. I remember she just came back from Paris.She, this is when she used to shave the [01:05:00] CI of her hair. She's like, You know, can you clean me up? I didn't bring clippers cause I wasn't aware that I was gonna do like grooming and I, I just was prepared for makeup artistry. So I had to, th this is another fun fact I'm gonna share with your audience. I had to taper and sh and shave, fade the side of her head with lash scissors and a mascara one and just like a cute little blend to make it look tight.And then the rest of the day was turning these dancers into like mannequin avant garde, like avatar makeup. So like blue, pink, gold and black. And it was hot during real life on afloat, during la gay pride in a little pickup truck behind her, touching her up every so often and touching them up. Just exhausting, but, you know, really, really great to work with.And she was very gracious. And this is when she was dating I forget his name. The my Latino, I should [01:06:00] know his name, HETE. But anyhow, it was a, it was a great experience. She was fun. Gaga was fun, RuPaul was fun, and I love them all as artists. I think what they represent as, you know, ex a self-expression and what they do for our community is just, is awesome.So I'm gonna forever take that to my grave. Hell yeah. And De'Vannon: look, I hopefully you get to work with them again. I speak it so. Mm-hmm. So I've

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is "Augmenting Workers With Wearables." And our guest is Andrew Chrostowski, Chairman and CEO of RealWear (https://www.realwear.com/). In this conversation, we talk about the brief history of industrial wearables, the state of play, the functionality, current approaches and deployments, use cases, the timelines, and the future. If you like this show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 92: Emerging Interfaces for Human Augmentation (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/92). Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: Industrial wearables have come a long way. There is a big need for assisted reality in many workforce scenarios across industry. There are now companies taking good products to market that are rugged enough, simple enough, and advanced enough to make work simpler for industrial workers. On the other hand, we are far away from the kind of untethered multiverse that many imagine in the future, one step at a time. Transcript: TROND: Welcome to another episode of the Augmented Podcast. Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is Augmenting Workers With Wearables. And our guest is Andrew Chrostowski, Chairman and CEO of RealWear. In this conversation, we talk about the brief history of industrial wearables, the state of play, the functionality, current approaches and deployments, use cases, the timelines, and the future. Augmented is a podcast for industrial leaders, for process engineers, and for shop floor operators hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim and presented by Tulip. Andrew, welcome to the show. How are you? ANDREW: Hi, Trond. Great to be here. I'm doing great. TROND: You know, you are a poster child entrepreneur engineer, Oregon State, University of Southern California. You are actually an expert on the future of work. There are so many people that say they talk about the future of work. You are implementing and, selling, and evangelizing a true future of work product, not just a story. We're going to be talking about augmented, assisted all kinds of reality and collaboration, Andrew, because that's, I guess, what it's all about. And you lead the industrial wearable company RealWear. But first, I want to get to the fact that you're a certified firefighter. Now, how does that fit into this? ANDREW: That's really a great question. And one of the things that's been passionate for me from the beginning is being close to the customer. It was true when I was an Air Force officer designing for systems that would support our warfighters and putting myself in their situations in life and death. Certainly, I think about it in terms of customers, and we were dealing with other lines of business and trying to understand the customers' perspective, and especially the frontline workers that create those products. And when I took over the Scott Safety business when I was part of Tyco, their particular market was firefighters. They were the leading provider of air tanks, cylinders, respirators, what we call SCBAs, self-contained breathing apparatus for firefighters. Now, I know a lot of things about a lot of areas of technology. But I didn't know anything about firefighting. And so when I took over that business, the first thing I did was go to Texas A&M and actually get trained and certified as an interior firefighter. So I actually put on all the bunker gear, timed donning just like you do when you're in the fire station, fought real fires that were built, and to understand really the challenges they faced. And I came out of that training really having a greater appreciation for just how challenging that work is. And I know it's shocking to your listeners, but everything we ever see on TV and movies about firefighting is wrong. Basically, firefighting, besides being terrifying, and difficult, and dangerous, is basically blind. You're in the smoke. You're in the dark. And my background in the Air Force thermal imaging systems and multispectral systems came back to me. And I said, "You know what we need to do is give predator vision to firefighters and give them the chance to see the unseen in the dark." And so, coming out of that training, I initiated an in-mass thermal imaging system for firefighters that went to the market about 14 months later at Scott site. TROND: Wow, that's some real background there. I'd like to start with that story because it reminds me that what we're about to talk about here, you know, wearables, it's not a joke. These are, you know, in industrial environments, these are not optional technologies once they really, really start working. And you can sort of say that they're first-line technologies. They better work every time. So this is not a case where you could kind of, well, you know, let's install another version and restart and whatnot. These are eventually going to be hopefully systems that the modern industrial worker really starts to trust to perform their job efficiently. Before we get into the nitty-gritty of all of the different things that RealWear is trying to do, I wanted to just ask you a basic question, what is assisted reality? It's a curious phrase. It's like, why does reality need assistance? [laughs] You know, where does that even come from? ANDREW: You can deny reality, but you can't deny the effects of denying reality. When we talk about assisted reality, it's a point on the spectrum what we call XR, the extended reality. It starts with reality and ends when that virtual reality, the fully immersive digital environment that we experience and what we talk about a lot in the metaverse. Then coming from reality forward, you have assisted reality, which is a reality-first, digital-second environment, which is what we focus on. It is the idea that this is the technology available now that allows a worker to be productive and work safely in a real-world environment. When you get into augmented reality, which is something that we think of when we think of products like HoloLens and other similar types of products, that's where this digital environment begins to overlay the actual environment. It imposes a cognitive load on the brain so that you're now having to focus on things that aren't really there while there are things that are really around you that could hurt you. This is great when you're in a safe environment, in a classroom, in a design area, when you're collaborating in the office to be able to immerse yourselves in these three-dimensional digital objects. It's much different when you're walking on the deck of an oil rig or you're potentially working around a cobot that can hurt you when your attention is distracted. And then we have sort of that virtual reality game that we started with in the metaverse where people are now kind of transposing themselves into a fully digital atmosphere. We at RealWear have focused on making a difference for the future of work and focusing on those 2 billion frontline workers who could work more safely and more productively if they were connected. And it makes perfect sense to us. If we learned anything from the COVID lockdowns, we learned that this idea of working from anywhere, the idea of the office worker working from home, working from the coffee shop, all of this now has become just a given. We know that we need these digital tools to collaborate remotely. What we only have begun to just crack the code on is that there are, again, 2 billion people working with their hands on the front line who could work more productively and more safely if they were connected workers, if they had access to information, if they had access to collaborating in a hands-free way with their counterparts across the world. And so RealWear, our focus is this mission of engaging, empowering, and elevating the performance of those frontline workers by giving them an assisted reality solution that is extremely low friction and easy to use. TROND: I like the distinction there. Even though this podcast is called augmented, I like the distinction between AR and assisted reality. Because there's really, I guess, you can see it more clearly in the consumer space where it sounds so fascinating to enter these virtual worlds. But in industry, the virtual is really subservient and needs to be subservient to the very reality. So I guess assisting reality is the point here. It's not the endpoint that is necessarily the virtual. You're using the technologies, if I understand it, to strengthen the ability to survive and be very, very efficient in reality as opposed to entering some sort of virtual space where you are simulating more. You're talking about critical applications in the physical industrial reality, so that's now clear to me. Having said that, this is not easy to do, is it, Andrew? ANDREW: No. I mean, there's a lot that comes into this idea of making technology that's human-centric. And all the things you were just talking about really bring us back to this idea that this kind of assisted reality solution is about helping the human being at that nexus of control operate more safely and effectively in a variety of environmental conditions. It is really important that we think about the technology serving the person and not so much technology that is imposing itself on people, which is oftentimes what we see as we try to roll out different kinds of technical solutions. The folks who are doing work with their hands who are daily exposing themselves to risk have a very low tolerance for things that waste their time, are difficult to use, or distract them from reality. And so all of those things are factors we took into account as we developed this first head-mounted tablet computer that now is in the market as the Navigator 500. TROND: Andrew, can you tell me a little bit about the history and evolution of these kinds of technologies? Because there is so much hype out there. And you did a pristine job as to making these concepts fairly distinct. But how long has there even been an industrial product? I guess a lot of us remember the first Google Glass, but partly what we remember is the hype in the consumer market, which then kind of fell flat. And then they reemerged, I guess, as sort of a light competitor to you guys and then has since somewhat disappeared. But, anyway, there are a lot of attempts in the near history of technology to do this kind of thing. I mean, it corresponds pretty neatly to various sci-fi paradigms as well. But what are the real prototypes that go into the inspiration for the technology as you have it today? ANDREW: Well, I'm glad you mentioned science fiction because really the way I would start this, otherwise, is, say, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, we had Star Wars. And if you think back to that show, science fiction has been part of how people work in modeling, how people work for decades and more, from Jules Verne all the way through to Star Trek and the like. And so when you think about these technologies, you go back to processes and technologies that support humans collaborating. And back in Star Wars, we had a character called Boba Fett who famously has, and now you see it in the Mandalorian, a little device that comes down from his helmet in front of his eyes and acts as a rangefinder and computer screen. Actually, one of the founding engineers that were part of the design of the first RealWear device came out of designing Boba Fett's helmet. And so there is really a connection there about how people have imagined people work and how people actually work. And the actual part really started with Dr. Chris Parkinson and spending over ten years working on what is the right ergonomics. What's the right way to shift the balance, the weight, the size, and manner of the display? How do you control the windows and amount of information displayed? And how do you suppress the outside noise so that you can have a voice control system that makes it truly hands-free? So it began with this idea of all great things start with a spark of imagination. And then bringing that to a very practical point of view of solving the problem of being able to give someone information and collaboration tools hands-free in an environment where they can work safely but connect to all the value and information that's out there that we enjoy every day working as office knowledge workers with the internet. TROND: Andrew, what are some of the technical challenges you had to overcome? I can imagine; first, you have to design something that is probably bulkier than you wanted, and then eventually reducing its size is one thing. But I can imagine the algorithms apply to, I mean, there's imaging here, and there's a bunch of design techniques to make this work. And then you said ruggedized, right? I mean, this stuff cannot break. ANDREW: That's right. TROND: What are the kinds of things that went into and is going into your next-generation products? ANDREW: Well, I think that's a great question. And, of course, as new products evolve and we build on the learnings we've had from having one of the largest install base of wearable computers in the world, we can sit there and say, look, it starts with ruggedization. Because, frankly, these frontline workers, when they're wearing these devices on their hard hat, at the end of the day, that hard hat gets tossed into the back of the truck. It gets tossed in the van. It gets dropped on the ground, or in the mud, or out in the rain. So we knew right away that we had to build a device that was able to hold up to that, things that a lot of similar kinds of products that are out there just can't hold up to. So we started with this idea that it had to be extremely rugged. It had to be lightweight enough to wear all day. And our first version did that very well. The Navigator 500 has come now just as rugged but now 30% lighter. So we've learned how to make that ruggedness, even in a lighter form factor. You have to trade-off on how you see that display in bright sunlight, in dim settings. You have to think about how you operate in a noisy environment. So you can imagine if you're trying to use a voice-driven assistant, whether it's on your phone or a little microphone device in your home, you use a wake-up word, and then you have to try to talk clearly. And if you don't talk clearly, you end up having it not do what you want. That's very frustrating for a frontline worker, and it's just downright distracting and dangerous at times. So we chose to have a system and voice control that does not require a wake-up word. It's always listening. And it listens in context to what's on the screen. Literally, what we say is you say what you see. And that's about all the training you need to learn how to use the Navigator 500 effectively. And because it's so easy and intuitive, people get used to it quickly. And they go gravitate towards how it's making their work easier to get to, how it's easy to launch a collaborative meeting in any number of key applications, whether it's Microsoft Teams, Cisco, Webex on demand, whether it's Zoom, whether it's TeamViewer, any number of other partners that we have in terms of the types of collaborations. TROND: Well, I want to get into some of the use cases in a second, but just briefly, so you were founded as a company in 2016. And you're now, I guess, 140-some employees. I mean, it's fairly recent. This is not something that you've been doing since the '70s here. But on the other hand, this is also very challenging. It's not like you produce something, and all of industry immediately buys into it. So I just wanted to address that, that this particular market, even though it's always been there as this potential, there doesn't seem to have been kind of a killer application like there is in some other hardware markets. And maybe you're thinking you will be one. But I just wanted you to address this issue. Recently, the IBC the analysts came out with this prediction that they're forecasting a decline actually year over year in units sold. And they're also saying a lot of new vendors are going to come into this market, but the market is not very mature right now. What do you say to that kind of an argument? ANDREW: There's a lot to unpack there, so forgive me if I miss some of the things you brought up there. But I'd start really with RealWear and how we develop this. The Navigator 500, the product we have on the market today, is highly modular, lightweight, does all these types of things, and that's really the eighth generation. Even though we only have been around since 2016, the thinking behind this form factor has gone on for eight generations. So we've got a lot more maturity than some of the other folks who might be thinking about entering this market. We've also focused entirely from the beginning on that industrial frontline worker. It's a niche of over 2 billion people but very different from the consumer aspect and what people have gotten used to in terms of dealing with a piece of glass that they might carry in their pocket all day long. We think that A, we've kind of created this assisted reality space. We've won in so many of these industrial cases because of the way we make work safer and more productive. We've now passed applications where we've had installations over 3,500 units with a single use. We've got, in multiple cases, over 1,000 deployments. We've got 75-80 deployments of over 100 units. So we really have broken through. And what we see is whenever we talk about the assisted reality market, or we can talk more broadly, we usually only see data on augmented reality. They put all these smart glasses in sort of a category. And we're really only a portion of what they count as smart glasses. So when they start saying there's downward pressure on that market or it's not growing as fast, it goes back to something I just read in a book about builders in terms of how innovation happens. And the author described augmented reality as a solution looking for a problem. We came at it with a particular problem we were solving, and that's I think the big difference between us and a lot of how people have come into this space. We knew exactly the problem we're trying to solve. We knew that we wanted to make the human the central part of that control Nexus. And we knew that we wanted to be in a space where others would find it difficult to succeed. And so, as we've been successful here and as we continue to grow and expand these deployments and getting into larger and larger deployments, we know that others will kind of begin to look into this space and try to compete. But most of them are bridging over from that consumer side where a lot of the fundamental design trade-offs they've made do not well-support all shift use in a ruggedized environment and with the ease of use that we've designed into our products. TROND: Andrew, that makes a lot of sense to me. MID-ROLL AD: In the new book from Wiley, Augmented Lean: A Human-Centric Framework for Managing Frontline Operations, serial startup founder Dr. Natan Linder and futurist podcaster Dr. Trond Arne Undheim deliver an urgent and incisive exploration of when, how, and why to augment your workforce with technology, and how to do it in a way that scales, maintains innovation, and allows the organization to thrive. The key thing is to prioritize humans over machines. Here's what Klaus Schwab, Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, says about the book: "Augmented Lean is an important puzzle piece in the fourth industrial revolution." Find out more on www.augmentedlean.com, and pick up the book in a bookstore near you. TROND: Let's talk about some of these bigger deployments. So I don't know if you can mention names, but the biggest one, I'm assuming, is in the automotive industry because they are at the forefront of a lot of automation technology. So I'm just going to make that assumption. Tell me a little bit about that deployment. What is it all about? What are they using it for? What can you tell me about what they're using it for? ANDREW: Thank you, Trond. And I'm super excited about our success in the automotive sector, not only just because of what it represents but because, as an industry, it's so central to economies across the globe. And when we think about the transformation of that industry going to electrification, that change creates opportunity for us as well. So today, with our partner TeamViewer we're in over 3,500 dealerships. Virtually every dealership in America now has a RealWear product in it. For those technicians, when they're dealing with a particularly tough problem, they're able to put on our device as simple as what I'm doing here, just putting on their Navigator, their HMT-1. And they can call and connect with a technical assistance center in Detroit and have a first-person conversation with an expert who can help walk them through that repair, whether it's pushing diagrams to them to, illustrating over the video that they're getting but helping them solve that problem faster. And why is this so significant? Well, because from the customer point of view, you're happy that your problem is being solved quicker. You've got your car back. The dealer is happy because now they've been able to invoice the customer or invoice for it in this particular case to get their warranty repair dollars back. And Ford is happy because now they've got a happy customer, and they've got a better reputation and user experience. So it's a very positively reinforced system. And so when you think about that application alone of just being able to solve problems of existing cars, now think about the introduction of all of these electric vehicles to dealers, not only with Ford but anybody else you can think of is moving into electrification. There are a lot of technicians who know how to work on a gasoline engine, but very few who maybe know how to really solve those electricals. So this is a way that these dealers can bridge the skills gap that exists between what they have and what they need to be able to do in the near future. And that skills gap, by the way, is recognized not just in the automotive industry, but you and I experience it every day when we deal with restaurant industry, service industries, trucking. You think about any kind of skilled labor situation; we know demographically we've got a big gap. And that's going to be persistent for decades. And so a tool, a knowledge transfer platform that lets people move up that learning curve more rapidly to do more meaningful work, to be more self-actualized as they do that not only helps people but it helps industry serve their customers. And so we see ourselves really at the forefront of transforming work as we know it. TROND: I'm so glad you went to the skills, and it's so exciting that that's the main application right now because I think there's a lot of discussion, obviously, in the industry across sectors about the skills gap; they say, right? That the gap...we have to train people, or they have to go to school. They have to learn. It's an endless complexity. But, I mean, you're sort of saying the opposite. You're sort of saying cancel the training, put the headset on. Some of these things, very advanced training, very advanced advice, real-time support, can happen without going aside, looking at a computer, calling someone up, talking to you, you know, see you next week with your car. And then, meanwhile, what you're doing is scratching your head for a while, trying to figure out what's wrong. But you're saying this creates a much more dynamic scenario both for delivering the service and actually for the human worker who's trying to deliver some sort of service here and is plugged into an information ecosystem. I'm just wondering, is that a very, very typical use case? And do you foresee that that is the use case for assisted reality? Or are there wildly different use cases just depending on, I mean, pick another industry. I was just imagining the medical industry, famously remote surgery, or whatever it is. Some sort of assistance during surgery is obviously the big use case. I could imagine that there's something to be done here also with RealWear. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, this is such an exciting area and topic to talk about, education, how people are educated, how that education plays to their employment and their employability, and how they add value and have careers. And we all have talked about whether university work is preparing people for the kinds of careers there are today or whether or not we need to be considering other kinds of applications, going direct to coding or whatever else. So when you talk about frontline workers, it's absolutely a matter of specific knowledge. It's not just general knowledge that matters. It's very specific things that can happen. And so by connecting people to experts, you do two things: you get the job done right away, but you also mature that worker because they learn from those experiences. And they can use our device to actually, while they're doing the work, film it. It can be curated and then used as training videos for the next generation of work that goes with it. So I think that alone is really exciting. There are so many use cases, though, beyond this, remote experts see what I see that we've been talking about. That's really...I'd say the predominant deployment today that people think about is how do I collaborate remotely on the front line? And that's super valuable. But what becomes even more interesting is when that device becomes a solution for how you do your daily work. As an example, if you're a heavy engine manufacturer and you have an end-of-line inspection, and that inspector is using a clipboard and a checklist to look at how the engine is functioning, imagine replacing that. For one of our particular customers, that takes about 30 minutes. When they implemented workflow using hands-free Navigator, they were able to reduce that time to about 12 minutes because now the person is not wasting time going back and forth to a clipboard, or to a table, or writing things down. They're absolutely hands-free, immersed in the work, being presented the next inspection point in their display, being able to photograph it, work through it, look at a comparison, document it. And the important thing is not just that they're doing it faster; they're finding three times as many defects because they're not distracted. We know there's no such thing as actually dual processing as human beings. If we think that we can listen to a Zoom call and do emails, we're doing neither very well. We know that we're just quickly switching. And that's the same thing that a lot of frontline workers experience. When you make it immersive and hands-free with workflow, now you begin to expand the value that this technology begins to support so much greater. As we move along, the implementations and the deployments are going to move from sort of this collaboration centric to workflow centric to then being able to be with our partner, IBM. IBM has actually created something they call Inspector Wearable, where they're giving a superpower inspection to an operator who might be standing at the end of an assembly line watching a car roll by. It stops in front of them. The camera knows, because of machine learning with Watson up in the cloud, that, hey, this is what a good wheel should look like and immediately highlights the operator with a telestration that's the wrong nut. There's a scratch on this rim or whatever defect we might be talking about. So then you start actually using these technologies that are inherent with the system to be able to augment the capabilities of these workers. And that starts to get really exciting. I'll add one of the points to that is in Q4, we're going to be introducing a thermal imaging camera that can easily be just snapped on on the part of our modular solution for Navigator to be able to then snap on a thermal imaging camera and give that person predator vision to be able to see if they're walking around their plant. They can see that an electrical panel is overheating or that a motor is hot, or they can use it in any of the hundreds of thermography industrial programs that people use today. So I think part of that transition goes from just being collaboration to how we work and do workflows to actually augmenting the capabilities of the folks who are wearing these wearable computers. TROND: Yeah, and that's so interesting. And, I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's where it ties into not only IBM but a bunch of your other software partners too where Tulip being one of them, where now that you're providing a device, it actually is the end client that can put that device to use in their own scenarios. And they can build, I guess, apps around it and find their own use cases that may not be the ones that are super apparent to any of those who deliver it, whether it is you delivering the hardware, IBM, you know, delivering perhaps the machine learning capabilities or some other knowledge, or it is Tulip delivering kind of a frontline software platform that's adaptable. It is actually the end client that sits there and knows exactly how they want to explore it, and then in a second iteration, change that around. Or am I getting this ecosystem wrong here? ANDREW: No, I think you're onto something there very powerful, Trond. And there are three specific dots we have to connect when we think about a sustainable solution that can be deployed broad-spread across an industrial base, and the first one is the device. The device has to be right. It has to work for the user. It has to meet the requirements of the environmental conditions they're operating in. And so the device is critical. And that's really where RealWear started our journey with that focus on the user and the user experience with our device. But the next step is really the data that comes with it. That's that part where it's both accessing data and creating data through applications that they use to feed the data lakes above and to feed back into this IoT world where there's information coming up from our equipment and being fed back to us that we can take action on. And then, ultimately, we have to connect to systems of record. And this is where Tulip, for instance, one of our partners, plays such an important role. It's that connection between all of these things that talk together, the device, the data, and these decision-making systems of record, that now when they talk and connect, it's a very sticky situation. Now you've created more than just a point solution. You've created a system solution where you've changed the way people work, and you reduce friction in interacting with those systems. And I think that that's a real clear case. I'll give an example that RealWear did in a very simple way. We recently acquired a small company called Genba AI. Their whole purpose in life was to be able to take a CMMS system, which is done for maintenance purposes, and working with eMaint, which is a division of Fortive, and be able to then say, "We can take that currently operating device that requires a worker to print out a work order, go do something, and then put it back into a computer, we can now do that with voice only." So, again, you take friction out of that interaction and allow them to do things easier but with the systems of record. And so that's why I get so excited about partners like Tulip that are making and connecting the dots between all of these disparate systems that we find in fourth-generation industrial complexes and making them work together seamlessly to give information to make better decisions by the folks who manage that work. TROND: This makes me think of something that I promise we'll get back to in a second talking about the industrial metaverse, which I think is far more interesting than the consumer metaverse. And we'll get to that because you were starting with this whole ecosystem that starts to develop now. But before we get there, I just wanted you to comment a little bit on COVID, COVID-19. Massive experience; no one is untouched by this. And there clearly was a future of work dimension to it. And people have made a lot out of that and prognosticate that we will never show up in the office again, or hybrid is here forever. What did COVID do to RealWear? ANDREW: Well, you know, it's an interesting perspective. I've been with RealWear in one capacity or another since almost the beginning, starting off as a Strategic Advisor and Chairman of the Advisory Board to, stepping in as the COO during the series A, and ultimately becoming the CEO and Chairman of the board in 2020 just as COVID was happening. So a lot of that immediate experience of RealWear was at a time when the whole world was starting to shut down and realize that we had to work differently. So I literally had one meeting with my direct staff as the new CEO before Washington State was shut down. And all the rest of the year was done via remote work. So it's not a dissimilar story to what a lot of people went through in recognizing that, hey, what used to be done in the office and was deemed important to be done in the office had to now be done elsewhere. And we came quickly with this adoption of digital tools that supported this digital transformation. And what it really did was act as a catalyst because before, you could have a conversation about the value of remote collaboration software, laptop to laptop, and that sort of thing, but nobody was thinking about the front line as much. That was a really tall connection for RealWear to make. We'd go in and talk about the value of a hands-free remote connected worker. But when you suddenly had millions of displaced workers all contributing, in some cases with productivity increasing, it now said, hey, by the way, do you want to take this great hybrid environment you just created, and do you want to extend it to those important people who don't get to stay home, who don't get to dodge the risk of being exposed to COVID, who have to go out and serve the public or serve your customers? And now, if we talk about giving those people connectivity and extending that with technology that exists today using familiar platforms...RealWear runs on an Android 11 platform. That means imaginations are limitation, not technology. All those solutions we're talking about can be done in an Android environment, can be imported very quickly, and provide a solution for those users. And so it acted as a catalyst to say that remote experts at smart glasses, as it were, were here, and it was now, and this technology was ready. And the deployments took off. It probably shortened our deployment cycle. Our sales cycle probably contracted by 70% during COVID as people began to realize this is how we can get work done. This is how we can continue to serve our customers. And so it was a huge change, not only in terms of the demands that we were able to meet thanks to the great teamwork of our whole RealWear ecosystem and supply chain partners, but it also made a difference because it changed the thought processes of leaders who now realized that creating a connected worker not only was feasible, that it had a real, recognizable ROI to it. TROND: Andrew, you're really speaking to me here because eons ago, in my Ph.D., I was working on this very visionary idea back in 1999, the early internet heydays. Again, the future of work people and tech companies were saying, "We are soon unleashing the situation where no one has to come into the office. We will sit all separately on these islands and work together." So I would say I guess what has happened now is there's a greater awareness of the need for hybrid solutions meaning some people are physically there, others are not. But the powerful thing that you are enabling and demonstrating visually and physically is that remote is one thing and that it remains challenging, but it can now, in greater extent, be done. Physical presence is still really, really powerful. But what's truly powerful is the combination of which. It is the combination of physically being there and being amplified or assisted, or eventually perhaps in a fruitful way augmented but without losing touch with reality if it can be done safely. That's really the power. So there's something really interesting about that because you can talk about it all you want. You can say, well, with all the technology in the world, you know, maybe we don't want to meet each other anymore. Yeah, fine. But there's a powerful argument there that says, well if you combine the world's biggest computer, the human being, with some secondary computers, you know, AIs and RealWears and other things that have other comparative advantages, the combination of that in a factory floor setting or perhaps in other types of knowledge work is really, really hard to beat, especially if you can get it working in a team setting. I guess as you were thinking more about this as a futuristic solution, Andrew, what kind of changes does this type of technology do to teamwork? Because we've been speaking about the simple, remote expert assistance, which is sort of like one expert calling up another expert at headquarters. And then, you move into workflow, which is powerful product workflow in industry. But what about the group collaboration possible with this kind of thing? Have you seen any scenarios where multiple of these headsets are being used contemporaneously? ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, I think there's the application of not only people using them broadly in doing their work but also then being connected to a broad number of users. There's a great video that Microsoft put out when they built Microsoft Teams to run specifically on our RealWear platform. And in it, we talk about a plant where, you know, Honeywell was certifying a very large deployment technology in a plant that normally would take 40 workers to go to this facility and physically sign off all the things that need to be done for this large automation system. But using Microsoft Teams and RealWear devices, Honeywell was able to do that completely remotely. They were able to have the folks who were on site wearing the devices going through. And all of these people who would travel to it are now wherever they happen to be, in the office, at home, somewhere else, being able to see what was happening in the factory and sign off and validate the work remotely. So it's like this world where we've taken away the borders, these artificial borders between the office, not the office, and then the front line. And I think that the biggest thing that we can take away from this conversation today, Trond, is that we all probably accept that some form of hybrid work is here to stay with office workers. We've just proven over the last two years that you can work extremely productively as a remote team. And we've also validated there are times when we just got to come together from a human point of view to accomplish even more in terms of some of the cultural and emotional intelligence and teaming things that happen. But what we've also learned is that those frontline workers don't have the luxury of being somewhere other than where the value is being created on the manufacturing line, up on that cell phone tower, or in the street laying asphalt. They all have a job to do, and they have to do it in their presence. And so when we then connect those people and give them access to all of the information that we as connected workers in a hybrid environment accept and the collaboration, we find that that is a place that really brings the dignity of that frontline work up. It inherently makes them more engaged with their customer, with the job they're doing, with their peers that they can now connect to so seamlessly, and, frankly, with the company. So I think that there's a change here that's happening that's going to be about the right degree of connectivity for the job. And we'll do more of what matters based on the work that has to be accomplished. And we're just not at a place yet where robots are going to replace carbon-based computing systems that are self-replicating. That's the way NASA described people back, I think, in the '60s is a general-purpose computer that's carbon-based and self-replicating. And really, that's going to be with us for a long time. And the dignity of those people doing valuable work and helping focus on how do we make them safer and more productive in these very challenging environments? That's changing the future of work. And it's aligning more closely with this idea of, hey, being connected makes us more effective as a company, as a tribe, as a nation, whatever it is. Connectivity becomes extremely valuable. TROND: It's a big trend. And it's about time there's some justice to it. I mean, you speak with passion about this. It's almost unbelievable to me, and it should be [laughs] unbelievable to a lot of people, that we've invested billions of dollars in office software, in kind of automation for efficiency's sake. But we haven't, until this point almost, invested, certainly not the same amount of dollars and euros and yen, in human-centric technologies that are augmenting people at the same time. Because there's nothing wrong with these other technologies or if they're benefiting office workers, but as you point out, billions of workers could be enabled, knowledge workers. They just need somewhat different tools, and they're harder to make. This is not like making a desktop software program. These things have to work in a real rugged context. Andrew, thank you so much for enlightening me on the challenges and the exciting not future anymore. Andrew, it's the exciting presence of this technology in the industrial workplace, and what that bodes for the future when I guess, people see the picture and are willing to truly roll this out to every frontline worker who needs this kind of amplification. ANDREW: Well, Trond, thank you so much for having me. And I think when your listeners think and hear about AI, I know the first thing that crosses their mind is going to be this artificial intelligence, the compute power that's being built into the cloud to solve all these technical problems. But I'd like them to also begin to think about that as augmented intelligence, the way human-centric technology can make those workers better able to do the work that has to be done by people. And we're so excited to be able to talk about this. Thank you for the invitation to explore this topic. I really appreciate the chance to share some of the things that RealWear's done in this regard. And I'd love to come back next time and expand our conversation. TROND: You have just listened to another episode of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. The topic was Augmenting Workers With Wearables. Our guest was Andrew Chrostowski, Chairman and CEO of RealWear. In this conversation, we talked about industrial wearables now and in the future. My takeaway is that industrial wearables have come a long way. There is a big need for assisted reality in many workforce scenarios across industry. There are now companies taking good products to market that are rugged enough, simple enough, and advanced enough to make work simpler for industrial workers. On the other hand, we are far away from the kind of untethered multiverse that many imagine in the future, one step at a time. Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. If you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 92: Emerging Interfaces for Human Augmentation. Hopefully, you'll find something awesome in these or in other episodes, and do let us know if you do so. The Augmented Podcast is created in association with Tulip, the frontline operation platform connecting people, machines, devices, and systems in a physical location. Tulip is democratizing technology but also, importantly, empowering those closest to operations to solve problems. Tulip is also hiring, and you can find Tulip at tulip.co. Please share this show with colleagues who care about where industrial tech is heading. You can find us on social media; we are Augmented Pod on LinkedIn and Twitter and Augmented Podcast on Facebook and YouTube. Augmented — industrial conversations that matter. See you next time.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why a growth mindset is the key to making effective change Andrew's tips for beating resistance and making changes stick Why lawyers need to adapt their professional approach to become effective coaches and mentors  How to choose the right executive coach What lawyers of all levels can expect to gain from coaching About Andrew Elowitt: Andrew Elowitt JD MBA PCC worked for over twenty years both in law firms and as the head of a corporate legal department before becoming a practice management consultant and professional certified coach. He is the Managing Director of New Actions LLC, a firm that specializes in talent, strategy and leadership development for law firms, businesses, and government agencies. His work focuses on the people side of legal practice: how lawyers manage, lead, thrive, change, and find satisfaction. He is regarded as an expert on the use of coaching and emotional, social and conversational intelligences in leading and managing legal organizations of all sizes. Andrew is a Fellow in the College of Law Practice Management, an International Coach Federation Professional Certified Coach, Vice Chair of the ABA Law Practice Division Publications Board, and founding member of its Lawyer Leadership and Management Board. He is the author of numerous articles and is regularly invited to conduct workshops and retreats for his clients and to present programs to bar associations. Additional Resources:  New Actions: www.newactions.com  Elowitt's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/andrewelowitt  Transcript: Coaching is a powerful tool that can help lawyers in all stages of their careers become more effective leaders, mentors, and professionals. The legal industry has embraced coaching over the last 10 years, thanks in no small part to the work of Andrew Elowitt, founder of coaching firm New Actions and author of books “The Lawyer's Guide to Professional Coaching: Leadership, Mentoring, and Effectiveness” and “Lawyers as Managers: How to Be a Champion for Your Firm and Employees.” He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how lawyers can face and overcome their resistance to change; why a growth mindset is necessary for lasting transformation; and how lawyers should choose the right coach. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Andrew Elowitt. Andrew is the managing director and founder of New Actions LLC. His firm provides high-level coaching, practice management consulting and retreat facilitation services to law firms and other professional service firms. He is a former lawyer and corporate executive. He's also an in-demand speaker. He is a very accomplished author who has been on the podcast before with one of this coauthors, Marcia Wasserman. We'll hear all about his journey today. Andrew, welcome to the program. Andrew: It's great to be back, Sharon. Sharon: It's great to have you. Thank you so much. Tell us about your journey. How did you get to where you are now? Andrew: I had been practicing law for 15 years, first in firms and then I went in-house. It wasn't something that hit me suddenly at 15 years. I realized I was a good lawyer and I was well-compensated, but my passion for the law, for legal practice, was ebbing. I wanted to do something more. I wasn't sure what it would be, but I definitely wanted to have a second act.  So, I got to that point 15 years in, like I said, and it was a matter of some awfully good luck. My best friend's weekend hiking buddy was a senior organizational development consultant who was putting on learning opportunities for an eclectic mix of people. I had known him socially, and I was introduced to him. I talked about what he was doing with the learning groups. He had a clinical psychologist, a college professor, an educational consultant, and a woman who did film editing and writing, so a lawyer in the mix made it all the more eclectic. Once I started that learning group, I was fascinated. It was like all the lights going on on the Christmas tree in Rockefeller Center. I went, “This is so interesting. I want to do this.” Then I started to train, and I probably read more in those first two or three years that I was training with my mentor than I had practicing law in the prior 10 years.  Then I made the transition into doing organizational development consulting. We were working with a lot of tech companies in Silicon Valley. Over time, slowly, I started to pick up more professional services firm clients, lawyers, accountants. A lot of my friends from the legal world were now in managerial positions. We'd get together and they'd say, “Andrew, we're having this problem,” and I'd give them advice. After about six months, they said, “You know what? We'll pay to have you go into the firms and help us with these things.” I went, “Oh my gosh, there's a niche here.” So, I started working with lawyers then.  At that time, which was the early 2000s, coaching in the legal world was not well understood. People thought I was a life coach. They had all kinds of misgivings, and I had to overcome that initially in making the transition. At this point, coaching is very well known and respected and utilized, not fully utilized, but utilized in the legal profession. Sharon: Do you think that's more in California? When I talk to people in other areas of the country, they don't really know what coaching is. They're going, “Coaching, what's that?”  Andrew: Yeah, occasionally I get that. I don't think there's a big geographic difference anymore. Maybe on the coasts there's more understanding of coaching. The legal community has followed the business community. The business community was a much earlier adapter and user of coaching. You certainly saw that in the tech companies. One of the reasons why was because you had a lot of younger, relatively inexperienced managers coming in, and they needed help. Brilliant people, great subject matter experts, but they didn't know how to manage, especially managing people. That's one of the reasons why there was a lot of traction for coaching in tech centers, both on the west coast and the east coast.  Law has followed that, and I think it's a matter of what the business models are for businesses versus professional services firms. As you know, partners or senior attorneys have their producer/manager dilemma. They're the ones that are on the factory floor grinding out the equipment or the product. At the same time, they need to manage, but do they have the time? There's a built-in tension there. Do I step away from billable hours to do the work? Do I step away from client development to do the managerial piece? It's a built-in dilemma. You don't see that on the business side. On the business side, with the executives I work with, which is anywhere from 40% to 60% of my practice, they are managers. Their job is to manage the people that report to them and to collaborate with the people in their organizations. It's different than in law firms. Sharon: Law firms are their own animal. One of the ways is exactly what you're talking about. You have tension. What do you tell people who come and say, “I love the business side and I like client development, but I don't like the law. I don't like to write briefs. I don't like to read them. What can I do?” Andrew: First of all, that resonates with me because that was my feeling about the law. I know I was a good technician, but I much rather would have been negotiating. I think that's one of the reasons why I was happy going in-house. I got to be the client, and I was more involved in the business affairs of my organization.  For those people, I think it's great that they have wider interests. The people who like client development, they're the future rainmakers in a firm. The people who like doing the managerial piece are really important. Now, there's a problem because they may be very good at it, but firms are still slow in rewarding and incentivizing people to take on those managerial roles.  One thing we've seen in big law, the largest law firms in North America and around the world, is the emergence of professional managers. People that may or may not be lawyers are now doing the administration and the leading of firms. There can be challenges to that. In a lot of jurisdictions, you can't have nonlawyers, people that are not certified as lawyers, being equity holders in a law firm. That makes the compensation and incentivizing issue a lot more complicated, but I think we'll see more of a continuation in that direction. It's great to have people in firms that are interested, passionate, experienced and competent in management. It makes a big difference in the bottom line. Sharon: I had forgotten how it's become so professionalized on the business side in many ways. I can't remember; it'll come to me later. I was trying to remember when I was at Arthur Andersen. There was such a big dichotomy between fee earners, non-revenue generators and revenue generators. I always felt like, “What are you talking about? We bring in this much.”  Anyway, you said you were doing training in organizational development or coaching. Andrew: It started out with organizational development. That was the focus of our learning group. It was great for me. I was with people more senior than I in terms of work experience, not necessarily in terms of age. We started with a couple of learning groups in Los Angeles. Then my mentor, Don Rossmoore, got invited to Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC, to lead learning groups there, so we had other professionals and executive coaches that were in-house for Xerox. We had people from Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Sun. It was the whole list of tech companies. This is back in the 1990s. It fast-tracked me to have all those people available to learn from.  Our last learning groups morphed into a consulting group that was a bit informal. Very different from law firms, where everything is very structured. This was, “Do you have the availability? O.K., we'll work together on this engagement.” I learned a tremendous amount there. We were usually dealing with larger issues throughout an organization.  What I found in doing that was I loved the strategic part, the systems part of that, but it really comes down to implementation. When it comes down to implementing the changes we're recommending, that goes back to the individual. Often the individual executives and managers were having difficulty implementing the changes they knew they needed to make, including changes in the organization, changes in the team they were leading, or changes in themselves. It's the individual. That's where I really began the transition into coaching. I didn't think I was very good at it initially. I still feel that way. I had to unlearn a lot of qualities and approaches that made me a good lawyer, but not necessarily a good coach. For example, as a lawyer, you need to be prescriptive and directed. You're there to provide a solution. A client comes to you with a problem, then, “O.K., well, this is what you should do.” That doesn't necessarily work well when you're coaching. It's better to work more collaboratively with your coach-ee to help them come to their ideas and figure out what they need to do. I had to stop myself. I had to restrain myself from jumping to solutions and saying “Here's the roadmap. Here are steps one through five. Do them.” That was me at the beginning. I had to sit on my hands and zip my mouth and go, “I have some ideas about this, but I'd like to hear from you first. What do you think would be a good approach?” It's bringing them more into the picture.  That was one of the biggest and hardest changes for me, but I found I really liked working with executives. There's something about working with people one-on-one I found very satisfying, far more satisfying than working with people one-on-one in the legal capacity. I went in that direction with executives and lawyers and a few other service professionals from time to time, but I wouldn't identify myself in those positions. That's pretty much the journey that I took. Sharon: Do you find that you have to put on a different hat when you're working with a lawyer, and then another hat when you're working with an executive? Andrew: That's a great question. It depends on the lawyer and the executive. Sometimes I have to put on a different hat with the same person from one session to the next depending on where they're at. With lawyers, Sharon, it's usually a matter of the issues we're dealing with. On the executive side, it's pretty much pure management and leadership skills. Lately with the pandemic, resilience and finding a healthy work/life integration are huge, huge issues. For the last two or three years, that has been a theme in almost all of the coaching I've done.  On the legal side, it's different. It's not pure management and leadership. At the younger levels of an attorney's career, we're more often focused on issues of productivity, time management, work-flow management. They are on the receiving end of delegation and feedback, so a lot of it is helping them learn how to receive delegation and feedback and how to help them make the people giving them the feedback and delegation even better.  It's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's true that lawyers don't have a lot of formal training in managerial skills. Some who came to the law after working in another area may have that. Some who took management classes in college or grad school, they may have some familiarity. But basically, when it comes to people management, lawyers don't know a lot. They are replicating the ways they were managed, which means they may be using managerial and leadership approaches that are two generations old, which are not great with millennials and Gen Z.  So, a lot of is helping people learn how to manage.  Now, I said I started with people at the lower level. As you get higher, then it is learning those managerial skills, delegating, giving feedback. How do you hold the people that work with you accountable? How do you collaborate with other people? As you go further up, it becomes more client-facing, so it's about developing those client relationships. Then we get into business development. I'm not a business development specialist, but I'm very good at helping attorneys that have support for client development within their firm and may even have dedicated client development people.  They know what they should be doing, but they're not doing it. It's the classical example of the knowing-doing gap. This is something that's not unique to lawyers. There's something we know we should do, but do we get around to doing it? No. That can be the case with a lot of lawyers when it comes to business development. I'm very good at helping them understand what's holding them back. Typically, it's nothing external; it's nothing in the firm or the environment. It's something in them. We acknowledge what the inner obstacle is and we work past it and through it. I have a good record of getting them into gear and getting them developing clients.  Finally, when we get to partner-level, practice area heads and executive committee members, then it's a lot about leadership and management. That's where there's the most similarity to the business side or the executive side of my practice. Sharon: Do you work with people at all different levels, depending on where they are when they contact you or the firm brings you in? How does it work? Andrew: For firms, it's virtually all levels. Large firms will bring me in. I'll work with their professional development or talent development people. Most often, they have a high-potential associate and there may be a couple of things that they're struggling with. As I think most of your listeners will know, it's expensive to find new people and onboard and train them. You don't want to lose that human capital. So, coaching can be very helpful and cost-effective in helping those people overcome the problems they may be having.  It may be something like time management. You have an associate who's starting to trend late on their deliverables. It's the work they need to get to partners. It's overly simple to say, “Oh, they need to work harder and faster,” or something like that. It may be an issue—it often is—where they're not doing a good job of pushing back against the people giving them work. There are lot of people all over the world and there are a lot of associates. They're hesitant to say no to a partner when a partner hands them a piece of work. What they end up doing is overloading themselves because they are overly optimistic about what they can achieve in a given amount of time. So, helping them learn how to push back is a way of dealing the time management issue. Sharon: I can see how it would be very hard to say, “I don't have time,” or “No,” to a partner. That must be very, very hard. Andrew: There's a skill and art to it, a lot of finesse. With some partners even more finesse. Sharon: Is there resistance? It seems like there would be. Maybe I have an old image of it, but it seems like there would be people who say, “I don't need coaching,” or “I've failed if I have coaching. Andrew: Happily, there's less and less of that. That sense of failure, I don't run into that much anymore. Usually with younger associates, they may feel like, “I should know this. This is a flaw in me. I'm not doing a good job of this.” Often, they're their most severe critics, so I make it very clear to people I coach that I'm not there to fix them. Seldom am I dealing with somebody who really has a risk of being fired from a firm. It's usually developmental. Usually, they're worth investing in, and the firm is spending money to help them become more productive and a tighter part of the firm.  The one thing you did mention is that some people think, “I don't need coaching.” I'll initially talk to a prospective coach-ee—and this works on the executive side or the legal side. I qualify them, which sounds like turning them into objects, but it's coach-speak for talking to them to see if they're coachable. Not all people are. Most are very earnestly interested. They want the help. They're stuck. They don't know what to do, but they know they need to do something. Occasionally, you'll find somebody who points the finger at everybody else. They say, “I'm not the problem. It's their problem, if you could just help them.” That's not going to be a good coach-ee.  The other thing you look for is a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. People with a fixed mindset think, “This is all the intelligence I have, all the social skills I have. What you see is what you get. I'm not going to change. There's not a lot of room, if any room, for improvement.” Why spend time, energy, money on dealing with a person or trying to help a person who is saying, “This is where I am and I'm O.K. to be there”? There's no upside potential. You want people with a growth mindset who are curious, who are saying, “I want to learn how to do this.” It's a challenge. You want people who can say, “I've really messed up doing this. I can tell you about the last three failures I've had.” That level of self-awareness and candor makes for a great coach-ee. Sharon: I'm thinking there are some similarities. Sometimes a partner will say, “I know how to do it. I did it this way. They can learn how to do it this way.” Can that change? They may be resistant, or maybe they're not coachable. What do you think about that? Andrew: There's often a degree of resistance in making changes. There's a reason why we are the way are at a given moment. Often, it's because something has worked well for us in the past, and that's fine. It makes sense to me. It got you to where you are. Why change it? You don't want to take that risk. But that mindset ignores the fact that our world is changing really quickly.  Let's use the example of working virtually. There were people that said, “No, I only want to have face-to-face meetings.” This goes for coaches and their coaching sessions as well as clients and people in their firm. But the world changed, and all of a sudden, we got a lot better working virtually.  Sometimes you do run into people who are resistant. If you're coaching them, you can start to work with them on resistance. You can say, “I can see why this would work for you. I can see the track record. I'm curious. What do you imagine might happen if you tried doing this differently?” I will lay out a scenario of what different would look like. When you start to engage them in that conversation, that's where you listen and hear what their fears are, what their expectations are, why their fears may be justified. Often, they're not. They're thinking something horrible will happen, and you can say, “There is that risk, but here's the opportunity. What do you think?” So, you can subtly, gently shift them.  Sharon: It sounds like you have opened up people who were closed when you walked in. Andrew: Yes, all the time. Sharon: I know you went to the Institute of Management Coaching. Andrew: No, my training didn't include IMC. In terms of management training, I did get my MBA from Marshall School of Business at USC. The learning group supplemented a lot of that. A lot of it was self-study, but I also took workshops and got certified in Essential Facilitation. That was something I found extraordinarily helpful and is a big part of the work I do. There was also action science, which is, again, organizational development oriented. It helped me to understand the dynamics of organizations.  The other thing in terms of training was my coaching training. One thing about coaching that is very different from lawyering is how you become a lawyer. Typically, you're doing your undergraduate work; you're going to law school; you have to take the bar exam. There are a lot of steps, a lot of certifications, that help with quality control. On the complete other side of the picture, we have coaching. You want to be a coach? Go to your stationery store or big office supply place, get cards printed up that say “coach,” and you're a coach. There's very little in the way of, at least, governmental oversight. The last I checked, which was a few years ago, I think the only state that said anything about coaching in their laws was Colorado. It said that coaching is not considered a mental health profession, so it was excluding coaching. Nothing about what you have to do to be a coach.  So, it's incumbent upon coaches to get training. There are a few organizations that sanction training and offer certification. I'm an International Coach Federation Professional Certified Coach. Boy, is that a mouthful! ICF is probably the leading and most well-known organization for certifying coaches. It's not the only one anymore, but it is an effort to raise the standards of the profession and to make sure that people who are using coaches get somebody who knows what they're doing. Sharon: Did you have to take some training and go through at least one class? Or could you just send in your money? Andrew: That's a great question. There are some organizations where basically you're paying to be on an online list of certified coaches in the area. That exists. I shake my head in dismay about that. As far as I see it, you have to go through an approved training program. Mine was Newfield Network. It was a nine-month program. I think we met three times for three or four days in person. There was a lot of virtual work, albeit this was so long ago that it was by telephone in between. It was rigorous.  There are several good coaching programs. ICF approves them. They have lists of them. What we're seeing more of, both on the executive side and in law firms, is that they want people that are certified coaches. Certification of a coach doesn't necessarily mean they're the right coach for you or they're a great coach, but it does mean they've taken it seriously enough that they put time and effort into it. They know what they should be doing. Hopefully, they're also doing it.  Sharon: You've been a lawyer and an executive, but being a lawyer, I can see how that gives you so much of an advantage. I'm thinking about how many times we've had to write a press release and weren't exactly sure—we did know, but we're not lawyers. It gives you an advantage. Andrew: Yeah, it does help. Especially in the past, it helped a great deal. If you look at studies of lawyer personalities versus the general population, lawyers typically are slower to trust other people. It makes sense. It's not a bad quality to have considering how we need to protect our clients' interests. But I found that lawyers and administrators in law firms are very happy that I have a legal background.  There was this one moment relatively early in my career where I was sitting across a managing partner's desk. He was starting to explain to me realization rates, and I held up my hand and said, “It's O.K.” He stopped and went, “Oh, that's right. You've practiced.” His shoulders sank down a couple of inches, and he sat back in his chair and said, “That's so nice that I don't have to go through all that explanation.” Understanding the context of what goes on in a law firm helps a tremendous amount. So, that is good. With that said, not everybody has to have a legal background. But I think some of the most effective coaches I know do have that background. Sharon: I can see how that would make you very effective, especially being on the other side of the desk in any capacity. If you were a lawyer at one point, you know about doing the work and getting the work. There's a difference there. I love the name of your firm, New Actions. That's what all of this is about, right? Andrew: You nailed it, Sharon. Especially when I started the firm, there was, like I said, a limited understanding of what coaching was about. Coaching can be these wonderful dialogues and interesting conversations you have with a coach-ee. What you want to do is get results—at least, that's my philosophy—and the results are helping people make changes. Where they are doing is not satisfactory for some reason. They may be unclear about a direction. They may need new skills. They may have difficultly working with people in the system of their organization or getting past that knowing-doing gap we talked about. It could be all those things, but people have to start taking new actions to get new results, better results. That's where the name came from.  Sharon: Do you think results last? Maybe they try the new actions once or twice and say, “Oh, that's different,” but then they forget. Maybe I'm personalizing it. I'm thinking you forget.  Andrew: Yeah, as I said earlier, there's a reason why people do the things the way they do. It's easy for people to revert back. That's one of the problems we find with training in a business or a professional firm environment. I'm sure you experienced that in doing trainings with lawyers and seeing they've learned all this new stuff. They'll do it for a couple of months, but without reinforcement, people do start to revert back to old behaviors. The six-month mark is my ballpark estimate. I liken it to having taken a foreign language in high school. You don't take it in college. You don't go to that foreign country. You don't use the language. You lose it. It certainly happened with me. That is a problem.  The difference with coaching is there is a reinforcement. Sometimes we do spot coaching or laser coaching. It may be three sessions. When it's really short, we're probably dealing with a specific issue or problem, but most executive coaching goes for six months. That's our target area. Often, it may extend a little bit longer than that. In the first part of the coaching, you're understanding the person, why they're doing what they're doing. Then you move into what they could be doing differently. In the middle third—and this is very rough as to the time—they're practicing the new skills, the new behaviors. They're understanding what works for them and what doesn't. The last third is really more practice. It's integrating those skills so they become second nature, almost automatic. That's where what you learn in coaching can become sticky, if I can use that term. After you finish coaching, it's going to stick with you.  I was just thinking of this while on LinkedIn. A former coach-ee of mine posted that he got a promotion, and I sent him a congratulations. I got back a comment saying, “Thank you so much for your coaching. I'm still quoting you.” I coached him about four years ago. That was the kind of gratification I was talking about earlier, the difference between being a lawyer and being a coach. I don't remember what I said or what he's quoting, but it stuck with him. He's using it, and he's in a global world now. That made me very happy. I had a big smile for the rest of that day. Sharon: As a lawyer, when should I consider getting a coach? What would I be dealing with? What should I look for? Andrew: O.K., two different questions. Often, the lawyers I'm working with, their firms have contacted me or they've been instrumental. With that said, one positive trend I've seen is that younger lawyers are saying, “I would like a coach. I need a coach.” Lately a lot of them are saying, “I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. I have too much work for my ability to handle it. I need to get better organized.” They're initiating that. The first step for a lawyer at any stage of their career is that you're dissatisfied with the way things are. You may have a good idea of where that's coming from. You may sense, “I want to stop doing whatever I'm doing now,” but knowing what you want to stop doing is different from knowing what you need to be doing differently. The analogy or metaphor I use is think back to being on the playground. We had monkey bars, I think they were called. Those were the horizontal bars that went across. You grab one and then you swing to the next one. What you learned early on as a kid was that if you don't have some forward momentum, you get stuck. Then you would end up letting go and dropping to the ground. In making changes, you have to be able to release the hand that's on the back bar. Sometimes in coaching, it's unlearning what you were doing. If an attorney finds themselves in that position, that's where coaching might help. It's not a panacea. It's not perfect for everybody.  I'm a good coach, but I'm not the right coach for absolutely everybody. Rapport is very important. Fit is a very important thing. Typically, when I work with somebody, I qualify them and they're qualifying me. Do they want to work with me? It's important that you feel a degree of comfort with your coach. As I've gone on, I think you can be too comfortable with a coach. You want a coach who can challenge you and be honest with you and be able to say, “No, I'm not saying this,” or “No, I don't think is working for you,” or “Hey, it sounds like there's an internal contradiction in what you're saying to me.” A lot of coaching is helping people get past their blind spots. We all have blind spots. That's not a failure. I think it's wired into us. Having another person there, especially an experienced person who can help us see what those blind spots are once you recognize you have them, that opens up a lot of possibilities for taking new actions. Sharon: You mentioned in some writings that you've helped people with difficult conversations. There are a lot of difficult conversations. Can you give us some examples in law? Andrew: There are two conversations that come to mind. One I alluded to earlier, which is pushing back on partners. Just recently I co-presented at a professional development consortium summer conference. It was a program on helping passive and timid associates learn to push back and manage up. For all the talk about law firms being flat organizations—and it's true; they do have fewer layers than a lot of business organizations—they're still pretty hierarchical. Younger attorneys can be overly deferential and very uncomfortable in saying no or pushing back. It can be a lot of different things. I don't have the bandwidth to handle work, like I mentioned earlier. How do you say that?  This can especially be a problem if you have one associate who's getting work from multiple partners. Then it's like, “Well, I'd like to do your work, but I'm slammed.” That can be a difficult conversation for an associate. In helping them, one learns that they need to do that and it's O.K. for them to do that. Actually, if they're just a passive person who's not providing that information to the people who are giving them work, they're harming the firm, harming clients potentially, and definitely harming themselves. That is something that's come up a lot lately, at least enough that the presentation we did this summer was very well received and attended. It's something that professional development managers and directors in big law are hearing from their associates. That's one area.  The second difficult conversation is around feedback. This is difficult in a way because it's not done enough. Often, in the rush of doing tasks and taking care of client matters, lawyers don't hit the pause button and spend time with the people who report to them and give them feedback on how they did. I remember this when I was a lawyer. You would finish a transaction. Rarely did we have the time to do a debrief. What worked well? What didn't? “This was great what you did. It really moved us forward. This is what you could have done differently that would have helped. Next time, maybe you can do it.” Feedback conversations are often missing.  The other thing in feedback conversations is that they can be very top-down and done with a lack of curiosity about what was going on with the associate. Those conversations can take a more collaborative tone, become more of a dialogue, be less about the problem. “Here's the problem that came up on this case. We were slow in responding to every filing the opposition brought to us. Let's get curious about why that happened. What can we, not just associates, but all of us as a team do differently?” Those sorts of conversations.  The hardest ones, Sharon, are obviously the conversations between partners in terms of strategy, direction, and compensation. Those are given to be difficult, and I do get pulled in to help. I'm a facilitator in those. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just trying to help people understand one another's perspective. What facts they're looking at, what their rationale is based on, trying to change it from a legal argument with pros, cons and who's going to win to more, “Let's look at the whole business of the law firm. Let's see what's good short-term and long-term for all of us, not just part of us.” Sharon: Each of these are very interesting scenarios. I give you credit for even being able to endure them, especially the first one. Covid probably changed this, but I do remember a partner saying, “What do they think evenings and weekends are for?” I always think of how partners would say, “This guy didn't make it in terms of client development. It was clear they weren't going to become a partner. I coached them out.” I always think about, “What did you say? How did you do that? Andrew: I'm not sure what coaching somebody out necessarily means. Let's stop here and think about lawyers as coaches. This is one of the things in my first book that I went into in some detail in one of the chapters. The skills for being a good lawyer, when you line them up against being a good coach, there's not a lot of overlap. Lawyers, to be good managers and leaders, they need to take off their lawyer hat at times. If they're coaching, which is a very potent, effective way of managing your people, you have to not approach it as lawyers.  For an example, as lawyers, we often ask closed-ended questions. We're getting to the facts. In coaching, open-ended questions are much better. You want to see where the conversation is going to go. You want to learn more about what's going on with the other person. In coaching, you also have to be listening very attentively, not thinking about, “What am I going to say in response to this?” Again, I'm going back to one of the shifts I had to make when I made the transition. As a lawyer, I'm thinking, “This is what I'm hearing from opposition. Now, how am I going to counter that argument? What am I going to say next? How do I want to navigate this conversation?” It's more oppositional in that way. You really do have to take off the lawyer hat at times to be effective. Sharon: Your first book, “Lawyers as Managers,” talks about that. Am I remembering that correctly? Andrew: That's the second book with Marcia Wasserman. The first one was “The Lawyer's Guide to Professional Coaching: Leadership, Mentoring, and Effectiveness.” That was, I think, back in 2012. It's available now. I think you can find used copies on Amazon. The ABA still has it as an e-book. Coaching in the last 10 years has certainly changed within law firms. At the time it was written, it was to help lawyers and firm administrators understand the potential of coaching. I'm happy to say I think that potential is increasingly realized. I wouldn't say my book is responsible for that solely. Absolutely not, but it was one piece that helped. In “Lawyers as Managers,” Marcia and I look at the role that lawyers need to take as people managers. Lawyers are generally good managers when it comes to technical aspects. You give a lawyer a spreadsheet, they're probably pretty good at dealing with it. Things like budgets. When you come to the more interpersonal stuff, like client development, lawyers aren't as good. When it comes to people management, there really was a lack of understanding.  Marcia originated the idea. We were at a meeting, and she said, “I'm looking for some materials on leadership and management for lawyers. Do you have any?” I said, “I have a few articles I've written for bar associations, but most of the stuff out there is general management and leadership. It's tailored for the executive committee, the business community.” A couple of months later, we had the same conversation. I said, “Marcia, we're going to have to write the book,” and she agreed. Little did she know what she was getting herself into. That, I will say, is the definitive book on people management for lawyers. Sharon: To end, can you tell us about one of the difficult conversations you've had? I don't know how many times I've stopped myself and just said, “I can't do it,” or “I'll go around it.” Andrew: I'll speak in general terms. Again, I'm going back to when I was first making the transition to coaching. I found a great deal of difficulty in having uncomfortable conversations where I had to deliver bad news. I had to tell somebody what they were doing was not working at all. It wasn't even neutral. It was really harming them and other people. In short, they were really messing up.  I was very gentle. I was bypassing. I was softening, diluting, sugar-coating messages that needed to be heard. I realized that I was playing nice. I didn't want to upset the other person. I didn't want to feel my own upset in doing this, so I wasn't providing value and the proof that they were making the changes they needed to make. This was maybe in my first two or three years of coaching, and I started to realize this isn't good. I was stuck and working with my coach at that time. I realized I had to let go of my personal discomfort if I was going to be more helpful to my clients, and I started to make the change. Now, I am honest. Sometimes people will say, “Can you predict or guarantee any results?” and I go, “No, absolutely not. Coaching at heart is a partnership. We're working together. I can't fix you. I can't wave a magic wand. It's on both of us. I'm here to help you, but just like I can't wear your clothes, I can't do everything for you. We're going to work together.” I do make three promises. One, I listen. I listen very attentively to what my coach-ees say and what they're not saying. The second thing is I am honest. I am very honest. I will not hold back in terms of what I'm hearing or the impact it's having on me. If a coach-ee is saying something and I'm not believing them, I'll say that. I need to. If I think something is B.S., it's the same thing. If I think they're fooling themselves, same thing. There are times where I have to deliver tough feedback.  The third promise is I'm compassionate. I don't beat people up in the process. I won't sugar-coat, dilute, or bypass. I deliver the message, but I understand they have feelings. In giving them this feedback, it may affect their emotions and their own identity as a person and a professional. I'm aware of it and sensitive to that, but I still get the message across. I figure that in the first two or three years of my coaching, I was sugar-coating. For the last 22 years, I think I have a good record of being straight with people and getting results. Sharon: Andrew, I'm sure you do get results. Thank you so much for being with us today. Andrew: It's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed it immensely. Thank you, Sharon.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again. addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308. Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom. Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the "I did a hard thing" for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: "Thought of you today, and you're saying, 'It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone." This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. "It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort." This is so good. I love when people share their "I did a hard thing," mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina. Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: "Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)" So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there. All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic. Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for "crazy people." Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, "I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD." And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, "Hey, you have a problem." And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story. So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these. So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day. So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, "I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time." So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, "I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps." I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. "Now this job. I need something." So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, "Well, one problem is you have OCD." I was like, "What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized." Gosh, I'm so thankful for her. Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person. Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, "Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress." Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga. Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, "Throw this in as well. Not really that important." But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, "I need you to commit to this." And I said, "But I don't think this is helping me either," because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, "None of this is external." I kept saying, "This is internal. I have something going on inside of me." And she said, "Well, I want you to commit to it." I said, "I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out." So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, "Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in." And my therapist, pause the video. She said, "Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins." Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, "Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you." And I'm like, "No, I don't like this." Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing. Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? "Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?" It was just this moment of, "What do you mean?" If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and "just right" OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people. Am I Doing Erp "Just Right"? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, "I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not." So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, "I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is." But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not. I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, "Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh." And then you get to the end and you go, "Okay, I made it through." And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that. Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, "You'd be so proud I did the exposure." And I'd be like, "And the RP, did that get included?" So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, "Oh, I cannot try to solve this." And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, "Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?" And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now. So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things. Kimberley: You're white-knuckling. Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, "I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this." So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger. And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others. ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, "You're fine. Let's never be around dogs." And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, "Oh, I'm not a dog person." You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the "Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over." So, for years, I had this like, "I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany." And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, "That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg." So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, "Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that." So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that. I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, "What are you doing with painted nails?" And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, "Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body." But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, "Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety." But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running. Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, "You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew." And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed. And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve. If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain "Dolores" after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. "Oh, did I get the time difference right?" I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting. And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, "Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior," or "I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief"? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, "Okay, be aware as you go into the day." And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type. So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety. So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, "I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on," I think in their head, it's "I have a lot of work." Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected. Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, "I got a question for you." And I'm like, "Ah, I missed that." So, I think that that's the beauty of this. Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, "Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?" "No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist." "Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?" "Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now." "Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?" "Nope. Go now." Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it? Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, "Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it." And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, "Oh, that's a stressful thing?" "Yeah, It can be." And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, "Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?" And I think that mindfulness piece is so important. So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, "Follow your values, talk about your values." Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, "You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine." Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, "Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me." I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, "Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great." It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again. addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308. Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom. Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the "I did a hard thing" for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: "Thought of you today, and you're saying, 'It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone." This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. "It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort." This is so good. I love when people share their "I did a hard thing," mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina. Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: "Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)" So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there. All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic. Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for "crazy people." Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, "I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD." And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, "Hey, you have a problem." And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story. So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these. So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day. So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, "I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time." So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, "I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps." I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. "Now this job. I need something." So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, "Well, one problem is you have OCD." I was like, "What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized." Gosh, I'm so thankful for her. Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person. Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, "Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress." Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga. Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, "Throw this in as well. Not really that important." But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, "I need you to commit to this." And I said, "But I don't think this is helping me either," because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, "None of this is external." I kept saying, "This is internal. I have something going on inside of me." And she said, "Well, I want you to commit to it." I said, "I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out." So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, "Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in." And my therapist, pause the video. She said, "Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins." Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, "Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you." And I'm like, "No, I don't like this." Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing. Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? "Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?" It was just this moment of, "What do you mean?" If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and "just right" OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people. Am I Doing Erp "Just Right"? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, "I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not." So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, "I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is." But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not. I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, "Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh." And then you get to the end and you go, "Okay, I made it through." And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that. Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, "You'd be so proud I did the exposure." And I'd be like, "And the RP, did that get included?" So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, "Oh, I cannot try to solve this." And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, "Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?" And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now. So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things. Kimberley: You're white-knuckling. Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, "I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this." So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger. And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others. ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, "You're fine. Let's never be around dogs." And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, "Oh, I'm not a dog person." You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the "Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over." So, for years, I had this like, "I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany." And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, "That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg." So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, "Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that." So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that. I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, "What are you doing with painted nails?" And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, "Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body." But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, "Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety." But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running. Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, "You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew." And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed. And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve. If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain "Dolores" after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. "Oh, did I get the time difference right?" I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting. And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, "Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior," or "I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief"? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, "Okay, be aware as you go into the day." And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type. So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety. So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, "I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on," I think in their head, it's "I have a lot of work." Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected. Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, "I got a question for you." And I'm like, "Ah, I missed that." So, I think that that's the beauty of this. Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, "Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?" "No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist." "Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?" "Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now." "Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?" "Nope. Go now." Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it? Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, "Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it." And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, "Oh, that's a stressful thing?" "Yeah, It can be." And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, "Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?" And I think that mindfulness piece is so important. So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, "Follow your values, talk about your values." Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, "You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine." Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, "Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me." I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, "Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great." It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again. addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308. Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom. Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the "I did a hard thing" for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: "Thought of you today, and you're saying, 'It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone." This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. "It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort." This is so good. I love when people share their "I did a hard thing," mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina. Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: "Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)" So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there. All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic. Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for "crazy people." Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, "I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD." And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, "Hey, you have a problem." And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story. So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these. So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day. So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, "I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time." So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, "I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps." I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. "Now this job. I need something." So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, "Well, one problem is you have OCD." I was like, "What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized." Gosh, I'm so thankful for her. Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person. Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, "Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress." Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga. Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, "Throw this in as well. Not really that important." But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, "I need you to commit to this." And I said, "But I don't think this is helping me either," because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, "None of this is external." I kept saying, "This is internal. I have something going on inside of me." And she said, "Well, I want you to commit to it." I said, "I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out." So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, "Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in." And my therapist, pause the video. She said, "Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins." Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, "Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you." And I'm like, "No, I don't like this." Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing. Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? "Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?" It was just this moment of, "What do you mean?" If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and "just right" OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people. Am I Doing Erp "Just Right"? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, "I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not." So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, "I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is." But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not. I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, "Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh." And then you get to the end and you go, "Okay, I made it through." And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that. Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, "You'd be so proud I did the exposure." And I'd be like, "And the RP, did that get included?" So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, "Oh, I cannot try to solve this." And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, "Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?" And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now. So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things. Kimberley: You're white-knuckling. Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, "I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this." So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger. And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others. ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, "You're fine. Let's never be around dogs." And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, "Oh, I'm not a dog person." You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the "Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over." So, for years, I had this like, "I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany." And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, "That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg." So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, "Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that." So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that. I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, "What are you doing with painted nails?" And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, "Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body." But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, "Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety." But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running. Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, "You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew." And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed. And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve. If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain "Dolores" after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. "Oh, did I get the time difference right?" I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting. And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, "Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior," or "I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief"? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, "Okay, be aware as you go into the day." And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type. So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety. So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, "I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on," I think in their head, it's "I have a lot of work." Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected. Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, "I got a question for you." And I'm like, "Ah, I missed that." So, I think that that's the beauty of this. Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, "Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?" "No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist." "Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?" "Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now." "Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?" "Nope. Go now." Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it? Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, "Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it." And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, "Oh, that's a stressful thing?" "Yeah, It can be." And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, "Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?" And I think that mindfulness piece is so important. So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, "Follow your values, talk about your values." Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, "You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine." Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, "Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me." I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, "Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great." It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again.  addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone  How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety  Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more.  Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION  This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308.  Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom.  Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the “I did a hard thing” for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: “Thought of you today, and you're saying, ‘It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone.” This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. “It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort.” This is so good. I love when people share their “I did a hard thing,” mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina.  Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: “Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)” So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there.  All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic.  Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for “crazy people.” Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, “I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD.” And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, “Hey, you have a problem.” And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story.  So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these.  So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day.  So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, “I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time.”  So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, “I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps.” I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. “Now this job. I need something.” So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, “Well, one problem is you have OCD.” I was like, “What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized.” Gosh, I'm so thankful for her.  Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person.  Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, “Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress.” Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga.  Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, “Throw this in as well. Not really that important.” But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, “I need you to commit to this.” And I said, “But I don't think this is helping me either,” because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, “None of this is external.” I kept saying, “This is internal. I have something going on inside of me.” And she said, “Well, I want you to commit to it.” I said, “I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out.”  So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, “Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in.” And my therapist, pause the video. She said, “Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins.” Oh my gosh. Can you imagine?  Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, “Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you.” And I'm like, “No, I don't like this.” Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing.  Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you.  Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? “Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?” It was just this moment of, “What do you mean?” If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and “just right” OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people.  Am I Doing Erp “Just Right”? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, “I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not.” So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, “I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is.” But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not.  I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, “Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh.” And then you get to the end and you go, “Okay, I made it through.” And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that.  Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, “You'd be so proud I did the exposure.” And I'd be like, “And the RP, did that get included?” So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, “Oh, I cannot try to solve this.” And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, “Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?” And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now.  So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things.  Kimberley: You're white-knuckling.  Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, “I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this.” So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger.  And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others.  ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, “You're fine. Let's never be around dogs.” And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, “Oh, I'm not a dog person.” You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the “Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over.” So, for years, I had this like, “I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany.” And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, “That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg.” So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, “Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that.” So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that.  I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, “What are you doing with painted nails?” And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, “It's a beautiful day to do hard things.” I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, “Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body.” But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, “Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety.” But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running.  Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, “You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew.” And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed.  And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve.  If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain “Dolores” after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. “Oh, did I get the time difference right?” I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting.  And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, “Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior,” or “I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief”? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, “Okay, be aware as you go into the day.” And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type.  So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety.  So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, “I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on,” I think in their head, it's “I have a lot of work.” Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected.  Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, “I got a question for you.” And I'm like, “Ah, I missed that.” So, I think that that's the beauty of this.  Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, “Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?” “No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist.” “Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?” “Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now.” “Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?” “Nope. Go now.” Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it?  Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, “Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it.” And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, “Oh, that's a stressful thing?” “Yeah, It can be.” And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, “Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?” And I think that mindfulness piece is so important.  So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, “Follow your values, talk about your values.” Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, “You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine.” Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, “Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me.” I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, “Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great.” It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

Andrew Stotz talks with Dr. Mustafa Shraim of Ohio University about Deming's approach to variation, comparing it to Lean and Six Sigma. "When you do Six Sigma, you're basically outsourcing your quality to an external source, providing the training, the titles, and all of that. You can cut it off any time. But when you do the [Deming] theory of knowledge and the Plan-Do-Study-Act, you have to commit. The commitment is really the big deal here...the component that is missing [from Six Sigma] is a commitment to quality." SHOW NOTES4:30 Variation 12:40 The problem with Six Sigma 20:40 Statical Process Control Charts 25:44 Deming chain reaction 30:03 Suboptimizing departments 43:01 Management by visible figures 40:05 Why Deming, why now? Driving out fear 50:52 Continuous improvement and Plan-Do-Study-Act TRANSCRIPTDownload the complete transcript here. 0:00:04.1 Andrew: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm here with featured guest, Mustafa Shraim. Mustafa, are you ready to share your Deming journey?   0:00:19.8 Mustafa: Absolutely, let's go for it. Thank you.   0:00:21.5 Andrew: I'm excited. Well, let me introduce you to the audience. Mustafa Shraim is an Assistant Professor at Ohio University teaching quality management and leadership. Professor Shraim has over 20 years of experience as a quality engineer, corporate quality manager, and consultant. His PhD is in Industrial Engineering. He publishes widely, and he has a passion for Dr. Deming's system of profound knowledge. Mustafa, why don't we start off by you telling us the story about how you first came to learn of the teachings of Dr. Deming and what hooked you in?   0:00:57.5 Mustafa: Yeah. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you for inviting me back. So...   0:01:01.9 Andrew: Yeah.   [chuckle]   0:01:06.1 Mustafa: The whole thing started when I was doing my master's and that was the late '80s, at Ohio University, and I was concentrating on the area of quality. So, I was doing research, and my research touched up on what Dr. Deming was doing. I was doing it in design of experiments and quality tools and things like that. But of course, you come across Dr. Deming's work when you talk about quality control, in general, and statistical quality. So, that was the first encounter of learning about what Dr. Deming did in Japan and how he used statistical process control and things of that nature to teach how you can improve your processes, your products, and later on, the management. But at the beginning, I did not really get into his management philosophy so I was more on the technical end of Dr. Deming's teaching which was mainly quality control and SPC, and just improving quality in general.   0:02:24.1 Mustafa: So, as I went... So I went, and I started my first job as a quality engineer, and quickly after that, maybe after one year, I moved to another company, and I became a statistical quality engineer, and I was doing... I was a part of a training program there. I was doing training on SPC as a part of a training for employees at that company. It was a union shop, it was automotive, and so we utilized statistical process control and what Dr. Deming was teaching. So, that was the beginning of it, but later on in the '90s, I started learning more about Dr. Deming after I read "Out of the Crisis" and then "The New Economics" about his management method. In fact, his management methods just captured me. I knew I got hooked on the quality part first, but the management method just brought it together for me. And since then, I've been reading and practicing, trying to at least, what Dr. Deming has taught.   0:03:41.9 Andrew: And would you say... One of the things that I started realizing was that the statistical... What I thought was the end was the statistical tools. And what I started to learn is that, actually, the statistical tools start to have limitations if you're not doing the management of the whole operation in a good way. And I think that that's something that really resonated with me when I started putting the pieces together. How do you see the role... And in a little bit I'm gonna ask you about some more specific tools, but just generally, we have statistical tools, but we also have management. Many people may think that you can just apply statistical tools and solve all the problems, but I'm curious how you see that interaction between the tools and the management style.   0:04:30.2 Mustafa: Well, as you know and many, probably, of your listeners already know that Dr. Deming had understanding variation, or some variation, as a part of his system of profound knowledge. So, understanding variation, under it, is really learning how to distinguish between the types of variation that you would have in any situation, managerial or process situation. So, that interaction there is really big. That really captured me because what Dr. Deming says is like, more than 80% of the application for statistical process control is actually, should be in management, and not necessarily just on the line, controlling quality of the product. So that was... It captured me, and because of explaining how many managers, many supervisors, don't understand the difference between common cause and special cause variations, and they start managing people with common cause variation going up and down, and they reprimand if it goes down, and they praise if it goes up, and that actually just makes things even worse in the future. As you probably know, it's tampering with the process.   0:06:08.8 Andrew: The best way that I've ever come up to try to explain this is to say to people, "Imagine there's 10,000 people in a stadium. They all flip a coin, and you say, 'Hey, if you flip heads, go to one side of the stadium. You flip tails, you go to the other. Everybody sit down. Okay, now... '" Or basically say, "Flip the coin again, and if you flip heads again, so two times, stay standing. And if you flip tails two times, then stay standing, but if you hit the heads and tails, then sit down." And now, your audience is getting smaller and smaller. If you do this 10 times, you will have 10 people, generally, you're gonna have 10 people that have flipped heads consecutively 10 times, and people that flip tails consecutively 10 times.   0:06:54.1 Andrew: And if we said, if we started off the whole game by saying, "Tails is bad." Now you've got some people that have done bad 10 times in a row, and some people that have done good 10 times in a row. But we know, because of the design of that example, that it's purely random. So, the question... So, we can understand that, but when we think about random variation, what Dr. Deming started to do is show us how that fits into management and psychology and how we're missing that. I'm just curious if you can help us to understand how that variation fits into that management 'cause you started talking about rewarding and all that. So, just curious about how those things fit together.   0:07:38.7 Mustafa: Right. For example, within the control limits, and those are the limits that are on a control chart, and they are spaced three standard deviations up and three standard deviations down. All the variation within is mostly a common cause variation, and it's due to the system. It's a system variation. It's not attributed to any special cause whether it's operator or something else that changed. So, distinguishing between the two becomes very important because if you don't look at variation from the perspective of a control chart, what happens is that you are in the weeds, and you look at every point as either really high up or high down cause you don't have any perspective as to how to evaluate or filter this type of variation. On the other side, also you don't want to not react to something that is special. For example, if you don't have the control limits, and if you don't have a proper way of looking at the variation, then you might end up also passing a special cause as a common cause, or not reacting to it enough to fix it and to make it a part of your controllable system before moving on.   0:09:16.7 Mustafa: From both perspective, I think it's very important for managers, for leadership, to understand why we do this. It's not just something that you have to do on the production line. It is something that you have to do in management based on performance. Look at your data and see if it's a stable process in control or if it's not, then you need to start eliminating those special causes. Like Dr. Deming said that, "Nothing really is born perfect as far as the processes." I'm paraphrasing here. But when you start a new manufacturing process, it doesn't mean that it's going to be in control; you have to work at it. You have to eliminate one by one all these special causes that come up before you start seeing a stability. And then after stability, then you will be able to work on the system part of the process, which is a long-term continuous improvement projects.   0:10:29.9 Andrew: Yeah, it's interesting. I remember a story. When I was working at Pepsi, we had a bottling plant in Los Angeles that I worked at. And the management were putting pressure on the people that were running the bottling machine because the variation of the level of the liquid in the bottle was getting wider and wider. And so, as a supervisor on the factory floor, my job was to go and kick ass, basically, and tell the guy, "Hey, come on, what are you doing here? You're messing around." And he just said, "Look, Andrew," and I was a young guy who listened to what these guys said, and he said, "Look, look at that machine over there. They spent the money to buy that filling machine over there, and you see there's no variation. Look at the old machine that they've got, and they haven't bought the parts to repair it. I keep telling them, if they don't buy these parts, I can't get to that point." And he was like... And I realized at that point that it was a management decision that needed to be made to reduce that variation at that point. It wasn't an operator that we should be punishing for that. And I think I wasn't that popular bringing that information back to management 'cause they wanted to say, "Well, no. It's the worker," and that's where I started to think about that common cause variation, and how do you improve and reduce variation?   0:11:48.3 Mustafa: Right, right. And if you leave it also to the worker, sometimes if they don't know what to do, they start tampering with the, actually, production process, and it makes it worse. So, a training for them on variation is also important. It's not only for management but also for workers as well.   0:12:08.2 Andrew: Yeah, good point. I know your expertise in this area is so valuable, and I think that it's great to have you maybe break down the following four terms that we hear, and maybe just generally discuss the differences, and then we'll talk about them in more detail. But the first term is Lean or continuous flow, the second is Six Sigma, the third is 14 points, and the fourth is system of profound knowledge. So, maybe just give an overview. What are these things? What do they mean?   0:12:40.0 Mustafa: Okay. Well, the Six Sigma part came about in the mid '80s and started in Motorola, and a lot of people already know that. And the reason it came out is because Dr. Deming's contribution in the '80s just brought a lot of attention to variation. In addition, you have also some big issues like the Ford transmission issue that came up. And there was a study about variation, and so there was a lot of attention being focused on variation. So Motorola... Somebody at Motorola, Bill Smith, an engineer over there, actually, came up with this idea of Six Sigma. And what that means, in general, is that if you have a spec that is a certain width, like upper and lower spec limits, then you want your process to operate in about half that space. Basically, that gives you good capability of the process, and then you don't have to worry about it. The first problem that came about from Six Sigma was the controversy about the shift. The people who invented Six Sigma, or packaged it together, said, "Okay. Well, we know you wanna operate exactly in the middle, but, normally, processes shift like one-and-a-half standard deviation here, or one-and-a-half standard deviation there so we want to allow that."   0:14:18.7 Mustafa: So, that is one of the biggest controversy because when you shift something like that, the process may be out of control without knowing. So, they did not really take that into consideration, although they are teaching control charts within the Six Sigma body of knowledge, so that was not really taken care of there. But that was one of the flaws that is out there in Six Sigma. Now, there are topics in Six Sigma that are... They're okay. We can teach certain topics on continuous improvement, root cause analysis, things of that nature. But the statistical thing here was wrong. And again, the reason Six Sigma was popular is because it is packaged the way it was packaged. You have companies buying this, and you have all the titles that came with it, and you know how companies love titles, especially here in the United States. So, you got all the belts; everybody must have a belt. You gotta go through training, you gotta... And then after you get your belt, what happens? You're gonna save us money. You're gonna have to do projects, and your job is to save me 20, 30, 40, 50,000 or 100,000 sometimes. So, that was the Six Sigma part of the whole thing.   0:15:51.6 Mustafa: And so, the Lean later became Lean Six Sigma. But Lean, by itself, came from Japan, originally. It's eliminating waste. Think about things like over-production, waiting, inventory, extra motion, all of these little things that you think they're little, but when you put them together, that's a lot of waste. So, to make the process flow better, you need to eliminate all of this waste. It's more about productivity and moving things faster within the organization. Then, when we contrast that with the 14 points, the 14 points are the system for management. It's all about... It's about management. It's also about quality, like improving forever the processes and systems for example, and have a constancy of purpose like the first point says. This was the application of what then became the system of profound knowledge as we know it. I don't know... I don't wanna go too far with definitions and things like that, but the Lean Six Sigma, they had the problem of the statistical flow from the Six Sigma part, and then you have all the management by numbers, management by objectives from both the Lean and Six Sigma.   0:17:30.3 Andrew: And I'm gonna try to summarize what you just explained by talking about the Six Sigma. Is what you're saying the flaw or the issue was is that, in order to try to get good quality, why don't we just set our expectations of what we're gonna get out of the system so tight that when we actually produce, we're in a narrow range, but we're never... Let's say we don't allow... We built the system with so much margin of error that even if we move around in our output, that that still is within a very tight range. Is that the concept?   0:18:10.5 Mustafa: Yeah. That is the concept. But the problem with that concept is, if you move around, if you let the process move around one-and-a-half standard deviation, for example, which, what it says, this indicates that you could have special causes that you don't react to. You don't know at that point because you have moved the process. You end up having special cause variation based on that shift because that shift could be real, a special cause and not just allowing natural... Naturally, the process does not move one-and-a-half standard deviation   0:18:53.0 Mustafa: all of a sudden because there are tests on control charts that if the process... For shift. So, if the process, for example, gives you nine points in a row on one side of the center line, that's a flag because that's a shift. That's a shift in the process. Now the process shifted on you, and you're not reacting. You're not doing anything about it, so you have to stop and take a look at it. So, what Six Sigma is saying is, "Yeah, the process could shift one-and-a-half standard deviation." But in statistical process control terms, it can't without reacting to it.   0:19:37.5 Andrew: And a simple control chart, or run chart, will probably reveal this better than looking at a histogram type of chart, like a Six Sigma type of chart where you're observing the output of the system moment by moment. Would that be correct to say?   0:19:56.5 Mustafa: Right, right. So, the control chart... And I did a paper... And there are people that are out there and doing the same thing. I did a paper and showed that if you move the system one-and-a-half standard deviation, you will see all these points beyond the control limits by simulation, simulation of the process. You move it, and you'll start observing so many points being out of the control. And so, if you allow it, then all of a sudden you start seeing all these points beyond the control. And what do you do? So, there is nothing to cover that within the Six Sigma body of knowledge.   0:20:40.7 Andrew: And maybe it's a good point just to talk briefly about the control charts and what Dr. Deming taught about that. I think when I started seeing the control charts as he was describing them, I started to see a real intense focus on looking at... at trying to understand what's really happening with this system and trying to observe it in real-time. And the more that you did that, the more you really start to understand what's driving the performance of that system. So, maybe could you just take a moment, think about the listener or the viewer that doesn't understand the control charts yet, maybe just give a big picture about what those are, and what's the value of them?   0:21:27.7 Mustafa: So, the control chart is basically... If you think about plotting points over time, that would be a run chart. So, just looking at your performance over time and just plotting points, that's a run chart. A control chart is basically taking the run chart and creating control limits on it. And the control limits came from Dr. Shewhart who invented the control charts. And he put those control limits to minimize a couple of mistakes: not reacting enough when you have to, and not over-reacting when you see something. They were more economics. They were not statistical in nature. They don't really depend on statistical distribution or anything like that. They are very robust. They can be used in a variety of applications without having to look at the distribution of the data. And they tell you when to react to a special cause and when to leave the process alone.   0:22:41.3 Mustafa: So, when you leave the process alone, it means that you have common cause variation, just the systemic type of variation that occurs over time. But that doesn't mean that you don't work on it as management. This is a management part of the work. So, when you have a stable process, it means that this is a time for management to initiate, maybe, continuous improvement project or initiative to reduce that variation, and not... Because you can be stable and in control, but you still have a lot of variation in the process. So, the spread is very wide in the process or, in the control chart, it will be going all over with a lot of variation, but it's still within the control limits. It could have this kind of scenario. And that's when management has to step in and say, "Okay, we need to look at this from a big picture and try to look at all the causes and do some kind of continual improvement."   0:23:53.3 Andrew: Mustafa, I would think that when you look at it, it turns out that it's like a continuous experiment. And you're looking at the outcome in a control chart, and you're trying to think, "Okay, if we... " Let's just say that we add a new piece of machinery. We upgrade a particular part. Then we look and say, "Okay, how did that impact the output of the process?" And then you start to see that what you're talking about, and I think what Dr. Deming is talking about was the idea that, start to get this intense focus on how do we improve this process? And how do we reduce that variation to a point? There's no point in reducing it beyond a certain point. But just that focus. Whereas with Six Sigma, it's kind of a theoretical thing, and there's other aspects that you've talked about. But just that, a control chart really allows you just to focus on testing and understanding that the whole... The output is a function, not only of the people on the production line. Let's say if it's in a factory, and it's the machinery, it's the way you organize, it's the shifts that you work. It's all of these things. So, I can't help but think that it's kind of like the fun of testing and seeing the result coming out of it.   0:25:09.1 Mustafa: Right. When you say a special cause, it doesn't mean always that it's bad. It could be good. But you have to study it, and you have to see what happened. So, was it intentional? Was it unintentional? But at least you would stop and look and study. And that's the idea. It's not just to let it go without studying it. On the other hand, the common cause, you're just looking at the width of the variation in general. And you try to reduce that, like you just mentioned, over the long run.   0:25:42.0 Andrew: So... Go ahead.   0:25:44.8 Mustafa: No, I was just gonna go back to Dr. Deming before I move to Dr. Deming's chain reaction model. I use that all the time. I use it when I was doing workshops in industry, and I use it now in my classes. And I put that... The chain reaction model. And what the chain reaction model for those of the listeners who are not familiar with it, Dr. Deming says that, "You have to start with improving quality, and the rest is just a chain reaction." So what happens is, when you improve quality, and that is, and what he's talking about here, is a commitment by management to quality. It's not just a one-time improvement of quality, it's a commitment on improving quality. Then you start seeing defect decreasing. You start utilizing equipment better. Errors decrease and all of this becomes much less. Your productivity, as a result, goes up because the cost is down, or your input cost is down so now your output is better, and you have a good productivity which keeps you in business, and you provide better jobs to your community. I think...   0:27:18.8 Andrew: That topic is so interesting because I think most people, at the time of Dr. Deming and even now, think quality is a department; quality is something we apply in a certain area. And when you think about setting the purpose of a company to improve quality, it's a very risky thing. Most people think, "No way. Our company is about sales. Our company is about profit. Our company is about customer satisfaction," or whatever that is. Those things all are the intuitive things that we come up with to say, "That's what drives our business." And Dr. Deming, what you're saying is that... Dr. Deming says, actually, the chain reaction that starts from quality leads to all of those things. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?   0:28:07.5 Mustafa: Right. So, we know that we have to start on quality. But take, for example, companies that are engaged in Lean projects. So, what they do in Lean projects, you try to eliminate waste. And eliminating waste could also be a risky business if you just arbitrarily start cutting costs of material, of employee hours, or eliminating jobs, for example. If you take it from the productivity block of the chain reaction model, you go nowhere. You gotta go back from the quality, improving quality, and that's where the chain reaction starts. But for many Lean projects, they actually start from the productivity block. So, improve productivity from the productivity block, that doesn't really work because you are not committed to quality at that point. So, what happens is, you start maybe buying cheaper material or eliminating jobs. That might help you in the short run. The short run may be the next quarter. It's going to help you out. You're gonna improve the bottomline. Later on, all of this is going to come back as customer complaints, returns, issues with employees, lack of motivation because now they have to do more with less hours, and so on and so forth. But it creates a whole set of problems that are addressed in the system of profound knowledge from the psychology part to the learning part, and knowledge and the PDSA.   0:30:00.4 Andrew: So, let's go back to then now. I wanna talk about the system of profound knowledge so that the listeners out there, some of them understand it very well, but some of them may not understand what that means at all. So, now we've kind of been through a little bit about Lean. We've been through Six Sigma. We talked a little bit about the 14 points, and I think the point that you're just making is that when you look at Dr. Deming's 14 point, first one is create constancy of purpose. The second one is to adopt a new philosophy, and the third one is to end dependence on quality inspections. It's like those top three are telling the senior management, "Your job is to improve quality." That is what's going to lead this chain reaction. And I think you've illustrated that in your discussion really well. So, take a moment and tell us about system of profound knowledge as you see it.   0:30:49.8 Mustafa: Okay. So, the system of profound knowledge is... There are four pillars or four components to it. And the first one is appreciation for a system, meaning that you have to see systems in place. You have to do a connection of different parts together, that you cannot do things in silos. You cannot suboptimize. You have to look at the aim of the system, and you try to work for the aim of the system, not the aim of each department. But with that comes the idea of creating the variation part, and what is systemic variation and what is a special cause variation? Systemic variation is a part of management's decisions. They have to make improvement on that in the long term. And how you react to variation. So, if the system has a certain capability, and then you ask somebody, "Okay, I want you to get me that which is up here, way up. That's your objective." If the system is not capable, what is the employee going to do? They're going to try to create that number to please the boss. As Dr. Deming was referring to, they tried to please their manager or the boss. So, you might take risky steps to do that, including maybe fudging numbers or coming up with ideas to create that number.   0:32:37.1 Mustafa: And that goes to psychology, so now you are... You don't feel good about it. You have to keep your job. You have to do all kinds of stuff to make sure that you don't lose your job because you could not achieve that. Now you become less motivated. You're not really engaged. And what happens? They provide you with incentives, outside incentives. Bonus is based on work that you have to do, but the system is incapable. You cannot perform beyond what the system is capable of. So, that creates all kinds of problems. And the last part is the learning part or theory of knowledge, and that you have to have a method. You have to have clear definitions and, basically, you have to know what you need to accomplish, and by what method and how you know when you get there. That's a theory of knowledge. There is no knowledge without a theory, and it has to be... It has a temporal element in it, meaning that you revise the theory, and you create more knowledge. So, that's in a nutshell how you... How all of these components are related to each other. But to me, the systems and variation, they're just out there, and I see it everywhere as a problem.   0:34:14.3 Andrew: Yeah. So, to summarize, the system of profound knowledge, as you've explained, is appreciation for a system. Number two is knowledge of variation, number three is a theory of knowledge, and number four is psychology. And one of the things that I came to learn about Dr. Deming is, I always say he's a humanist. He's a person that really sees that people should have joy in work, and he wants to see people reach their full potential, and he understood the powers of incentives like you just explained. So, now that we understand a little bit of the theory of the system of profound knowledge, what is going wrong out there in this world? Let's talk just briefly about, why is this so significant? Come on, I just go get my black belt in Lean Six Sigma and the problems will be solved, but what is it about the theory of profound knowledge that... Or the system of profound knowledge that people should pay attention to now?   0:35:21.5 Mustafa: Well, with... For example, let me just take it from a different perspective. If you look at Lean projects, and you eliminate. for example, waste. if you don't have a system of profound knowledge to check all of the things that needs to be checked, like variation and psychology and making sure that people are not fearful to do their job, then you're creating other problems, not only just... You're not just reducing waste, you are actually, maybe having... overburdening the employees with removing waste because when you remove waste, you may be removing jobs, you may be removing hours, you may be removing employees. That would create a overburden. You could also create problems for the customers and fluctuation and defects and variation.   0:36:21.8 Mustafa: That's why the system of profound knowledge is an integrated system. It's not a just one piece. Once you start going from one door, you gotta address all the other components that are tied together to it. So to me, from whatever door you go in in the system of profound knowledge, let's say you go from the psychology which is you drive out fear. You create a good climate. You do all of these things, then you start seeing people coming up with innovations, reducing variation, and working together collaboratively which creates a good system. So, whatever door you go in, you're going to get to it because they are connected. There is no way that you're not going to address the other points if you have knowledge about the other points.   0:37:15.0 Andrew: It's an interesting thing that I would say in modern management, in modern life, people are trying to compartmentalize things and thinking that being a specialist in a particular area, whether that's medicine or whatever in business, that by compartmentalizing, it gives us comfort that we can become an expert in this area and all that. But what you can see... And I'll tell you, Mustafa, about my mother who I take care of. She's 83. And if we have a problem with her foot, the doctor may say, "Okay, don't walk for a little while." Well, that causes another problem. You start to risk bedsores. You start to have problems with GI system. And what you find nowadays in medicine is it's getting more and more narrow where doctors are not seeing the holistic pieces, and I see myself always constantly thinking about the whole picture to that. And I think what I'm hearing from you is that, that we should be looking at things more holistically, and that's what the system of profound knowledge is teaching, is that... Would you say that?   0:38:24.1 Mustafa: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, you have to... The main thing there is, companies, traditionally, they try to just suboptimize through their management by objective, "We want each department to save so much money," and then, once they start doing that, everybody affects the other negatively, but they don't know until later on that they have done that. You might gain the objectives in the short run, but in the long run, it's going to be disastrous for the aim of the organization.   0:39:03.9 Andrew: So, you just raised another point that Dr. Deming teaches about is suboptimization. And what he tried to teach was that the objective of the senior management of the company is to optimize the system, not its component parts. Have you seen...   0:39:19.9 Mustafa: Right.   0:39:20.9 Andrew: In theory, people should know that, but how is that going wrong in this world these days? And why is it important to be thinking in this holistic way that Dr. Deming was teaching?   0:39:32.5 Mustafa: Because companies, if they don't do things systematically, and they don't apply the whole system of profound knowledge, altogether, they're going to rush into money-saving exercises, and those money-saving exercises could be replacing material with lower-grade material. It could be, maybe, not hiring experts and hiring somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, and not providing training, or cutting training, or foregoing maintenance. There are so many things that you can start focusing on because you have issues. So, you have issues with a customer, and you start focusing on cutting costs, arbitrarily, not with a method, arbitrarily starting cutting costs in different departments. When you put it all together, just things don't merge well together because you're trying to suboptimize. You're trying to lower the cost in each department and not really improve the aim, or attain the aim of the organization as a whole.   0:40:48.3 Andrew: We've covered so many different topics. It's pretty exciting, like this sub-optimization. I think is a really interesting one. And I wanna raise a new topic that is the opposite of one of the topics that you raised. You talked about the chain reaction. Let's talk about the opposite chain reaction. I'll tell you a story in my own coffee business. We had put some pressure on some of the people in the procurement part of the business to reduce cost. That's reasonable. Management wants to reduce cost so there we go. We put pressure on them, and we told them... We incentivized them. And what we saw was that they ended up proposing a lower quality coffee bean, green coffee bean. The production people didn't like it because all of a sudden they had to recalibrate the machines. So, there was already a cost right there because the... It was harder to hit the client's demand of what taste that they want, consistently hit it.   0:41:47.9 Andrew: Then the people that were delivering, when we delivered the product to the customer, we had some returns where the customer is like, "No, I don't like this taste," or that we would have much more variability. And all of a sudden, we had customer complaints. And then we started to realize that, "Okay, now we gotta go and replace that with the proper stuff," and then all of a sudden there was all kinds of cost. So, the chain reaction you talked about was, start with quality and you start to reduce costs throughout the chain. And a reverse chain reaction is when you start by trying to optimize one point and not realize that it's a whole system, and therefore what you've caused is a negative chain reaction of cost just when you thought you were cutting costs, you're actually raising costs.   0:42:33.7 Mustafa: Right. That is a great example of that because what you've done is maybe just looking at the productivity part, you wanted to make sure that the costs were down so trying to turn the knobs on certain things, and then it just backfired on the quality part, increasing errors, increasing customer dissatisfaction and all of that, and that happens all the time.   0:43:01.4 Andrew: And that's what Dr. Deming says, "How can you measure the cost of a lost customer? How can you measure the dissatisfaction and the frustration?" Some things are just unmeasurable. So, I wanna...   0:43:15.2 Mustafa: Right. So, that brings about the issue of visible figures. You're managed by visible figures only, and not really the stuff that are behind the total cost, which some of it is unknowable or unknown.   0:43:34.2 Andrew: Now, Professor, this is really strange. Here we are, talking about quality. You're such an expert in all of these statistical methods, and now you're saying, "Wait a minute, you can't just measure by visible figures." So, this is again a paradox of Dr. Deming where you come into his teaching, seeing all of these numbers and all that, and now what you're telling me is it's not just visible figures. Could you just elaborate on that?   0:44:02.7 Mustafa: Yeah, absolutely. Visible figures are figures that are available right there for you, and you just react to it. If things go up, you wanna reduce costs. You just take action. But visible figures are really a limited part of the whole story because the total cost of not doing things right or not following the Deming management method. They're not going to be... You're not gonna see them until later on. You may be able save for a quarter or two but, beyond that, things are going to start accumulating in terms of defects, returns, and things of that nature. So, from the Deming point of view, the visible figures are only a smaller portion of the total figures which cannot be measured at the time you're looking at the numbers and taking action.   0:45:04.3 Andrew: It's interesting because we hear sayings like, "What gets measured gets managed," and those types of sayings. And one of the things that I... When I teach young people about this, I oftentimes say, "Well, let's just look at a simple thing. What is the value of a hug? Measure it." It's immeasurable. Particularly, in a particular situation when someone is traumatized, or in a really painful situation, and that hug made a huge difference in their life that could actually have kept them alive and led them to another so that... I think that's the visible figures that you're raising. It's such a small part of this world. The bigger part is how it all fits together. And so, I think you really inspire me to rethink about this concept; that it's way beyond just visible figures.   0:46:03.5 Mustafa: Absolutely, absolutely. This thing is just... One of the things that really captured me with the Deming philosophy is visible versus invisible figures, and the sub-optimization part versus the aim of the system. And those things are just so powerful when you think about them, when you think about why we're promoting, or why we're talking about Deming, and why now and all of that. It's these things that are very common these days. And they have... To have a good system, to have good management, you have to eliminate management by visible figures on... You still have to have visible figures, but visible figures-only is what Deming is... What it was Deming opposing. What he was against, I guess.   0:46:57.8 Andrew: Yup. And you said, "Why Deming? Why now?" And I'm thinking about it myself. And my answer to that is that we have a whole generation of young people who think that successful management is, maybe, sitting at their desk behind a computer looking at KPIs. And then, when someone is down on their KPI, send them an email, kick their butt. And when someone is up on a KPI, give them a bonus, and that's it. And then you go home at the end of the day. And they're so lacking in the psychology aspect of the system of profound knowledge, but just in what management truly is. So, from my perspective, "Why Deming? Why now?" is because we have the risk of it turning into some kind of automation system of management that will always end up underperforming. Why would you say, "Why Deming? Why now?"   0:48:00.5 Mustafa: So, as you can see that, for me, "Why Deming? Why now?" is I don't see management using variation as a way to distinguish between the common cause and special cause, and also their reaction to it, or the mistakes that they make as a part of it. So, that's a big thing. The other thing is the fear that people are experiencing at the workplace. Recently, we've heard about the great resignation. People just don't wanna go back to work anymore. And a lot of people expressed that they just don't like the environment that they work in. And we know that most people, about 70% of people who quit, they don't quit because of a pay or anything like that. It's because of relationship with their bosses and the company, and they just don't feel that. So that the environment has a fear in it. So, when you create fear, you're not going to have people that contribute and collaborate, and I think that's big. If we learn anything from this whole pandemic, it is that you have to create an environment of trust because if people are away working virtually or work in the office, you shouldn't have to worry about them if you have created that environment or the trust.   0:49:34.6 Andrew: Yup. And you mentioned about the pandemic. If there's one thing we've learned, fear is a massive motivator. The level of things that people have gone through in a state of fear, things that people would have never imagined that they would have done. And so, I think what you're talking about is just one more of the many Deming principles, which is to drive out fear. And I just wanna summarize some of what we've gone through, and then we'll wrap up. So, we've talked about the differences between Lean and Six Sigma and Lean Six Sigma. We've talked about Deming's 14 points. We've talked about the system of profound knowledge. We've talked about optimizing versus sub-optimizing. We've talked about the chain reaction, and I gave the example of a reverse chain reaction. And then, we talked about visible figures and understanding that there's much more than that, which is such a paradox for me when I first started learning Deming's teaching because I thought I was gonna take comfort in those numbers and the visible figures, but he told me, "No, no, no. There's much more." And finally, we talk about fear. Is there anything else that you would add to this final wrap-up of the conversation?   0:50:52.3 Mustafa: So, we started talking about Lean and Six Sigma and... Six Sigma is a continuous improvement process, but you don't really need to use it to... You can use the Plan-Do-Study-Act to it. There is no problem if you use it, and you recognize what's wrong with it, and you try to fix it. There's no problem with that. But, I think the Plan-Do-Study-Act and the theory of knowledge is sufficient for you to start working on things. But, like I mentioned, some companies, they like the titles and the tags and the big investment because then they use that as a motivator to get people to start working on projects to bring money back, to save the company the money that was spent on them. So, that's the only thing I wanted to add is just like you can't just rely on something that is big. The Plan-Do-Study-Act was good enough, and I think it's good for any organization. The problem with applying the Plan-Do-Study Act is that you have to have management's commitment because remember, when you do Six Sigma, you're basically outsourcing your quality to an external source, providing the training, the titles and all of that. You can cut it off any time. But when you do the theory of knowledge and the Plan-Do-Study-Act, you have to commit. The commitment is really the big deal here, or the component that is missing is a commitment to quality.   0:52:44.9 Andrew: Well, in wrapping this up, I wanna come back to where we started. Where we started was you were a young master's student and coming out of studying about these tools of statistical methods and all of that stuff, and you entered into our conversation, and you entered into the introduction to Dr. Deming through these tools. But here we are at the end of this interview, and now you're talking about such much bigger issues, and I think, for me, that inspires me about what Dr. Deming has taught because it is expansive. And the more you study it, the more you see it's way beyond just tools. So, Mustafa, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for coming on the show and sharing your experience with Dr. Deming's teachings. Do you have any parting words for the audience?   0:53:41.5 Mustafa: All I have to say, you gotta get started somewhere, and the system of profound knowledge is it. So, I would definitely recommend... I have been through many of the seminars that the Institute offers, and I would highly recommend that and also getting Dr. Deming's book "The New Economics." That's a good start. Of course, the follow-up is also just as important and continuing with the journey.   0:54:15.7 Andrew: Well, great advice. Get "The New Economics;" read it. It really sums up a lot of Dr. Deming's teachings. He put it together right at the end of his life. And that concludes another great discussion within our worldwide Deming community. Remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, "People are entitled to joy in work."

Theme: Legislating NFTs New proposal released this week from Senators Gillibrand and Lummis Most crypto products would be treated as commodities, not securities NFTs are a new asset class, with further clarification to come no taxes on crypto transactions under $200 Affordable project: https://www.degenlabz.xyz/ - Block_Bounce https://opensea.io/collection/dgnkdz    NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Crypto Legislation Is Coming Altcoin Buzz  Bitcoin miners urge New York's governor to veto moratorium passed by the Senate  Bored Ape Co-Founder Blames Discord After A 200 ETH Security Breach  Forget the Crypto Slump -- Pace is Furthering its Web3 Ambitions by Partnering with NFT Platform Art Blocks  Ethereum's Ropsten proof-of-stake 'test merge' goes live    Transcript:   [00:00:00] George: Today on all about affordable NFCS we're talking about legislating, non fungible tokens. There may be actual, real semi coherent policy making its way through the bowels of our government, which we can cover the high notes and share with that. But first, Andrew, how's it going? Anything new in the wallet? [00:00:24] Andrew: Oh, new and the wallet. Uh, man, I wasn't actually ready for that. I did pick up, uh, our blocks most recent. Um, it was recent curated piece. Uh, most our curated collection as a collection of 500 a day picked up one of those and luckily was able or picked up two of them was luckily, luckily lucky in my, uh, mince and got one re uh, rare gold one in there. [00:00:47] So I was happy with that. Um, kind of a cool piece that it, uh, They all generate noise from them. And it's a, there's a digital piece to it, but it doesn't actually loop. So it's, it's interesting. They're not, um, on the surface as just individual pieces, they don't look all that interesting. But we, when you dive into it a bit more, it's, uh, there's more going on there. [00:01:08] So how about you, you pick up anything. [00:01:10] George: Well, a couple of our projects, which I'll disclose, uh, a couple of deejaying kids and a admitted, uh, and to start Tosha, which may come up as a future project, but I have disclosed it and we shared it in our discord. I also, for whatever reason, I can't, I can't say no to two breeding horses. I got a couple, I got a couple of mayors that are just fantastic horses and I just keep breeding. [00:01:32] I'm not sure why [00:01:34] Andrew: you got to do [00:01:34] George: not even, I'm not even naming them yet. [00:01:36] Andrew: you gotta click buttons. You gotta put transactions on that chain. It's just, uh, it's, it's addicting. You can't get away from it. So even in a bear market, you gotta find something to do, right. [00:01:47] George: Yeah. I want to be clear there's there's no, there's no window to profitability. Unless one of them ends up being like the next, the next great hype, um, which from a probabilistic standpoint is a low breed, decent horses, but it's been rough and the old pony game anyway, let's uh, what's going on in the news. [00:02:04] Andrew: Yeah, well, you know, it's been, been awfully quiet out there for them in terms of trading overall volume has been low, but we do have big news. As you mentioned, we've got. Uh, some legislation that was proposed this week, a bipartisan bill coming from senators, Gillibrand in littleness. Um, so we will get into some of the details of that later, but it is, um, it is nice to see that there's something going on here. [00:02:29] Um, General. It was one of the big things. So for NFTs is that we're going to seem to need to wait and see how these, uh, how inept use will be, will be treated, what they are looking at, creating a new asset asset class for NFTs. So that is that's interesting, you know, we don't know what that means quite yet, but it does mean that there's not really something out there that seems to be a good fit for what NFTs are. [00:02:54] And I would tend to agree with that. [00:02:56] George: Yeah. Well, we currently have is not working so hope. Hopefully there is some intelligence coming. [00:03:06] Andrew: We'll get more into that later on. Um, so another bit of, uh, sort of legislative news here. Was it New York? The state, just a, um, they passed eight are they let's see, they are going to continue. Putting him with a moratorium on against big claim of minded usage in the state. They will not allow Bitcoin mining in the state. [00:03:30] So I, I do find this interesting. I don't see many other, uh, technologies or use cases of electricity that are generally, uh, forbidden. there being other reasons that they're breaking the law. So, um, this is interesting, you know, we'll see, you know, I'm sure that there are what we've already seen, that there are other states that are quite welcoming to, uh, to minors. [00:03:54] Um, but you know, that's also quite a change at some point to at least for, for the Ethereum mining world. So, um, interesting. That this has happened. I think this may, you know, we'll start to see, we've talked about this, how it just becoming a bigger political issue. I think that crypto will become a bigger issue as we go here. [00:04:14] George: Yeah. In general, when you find yourself limiting the freedoms of what Americans can do with public utilities that they pay for, um, Americans don't tend to. It's not a thing. They, uh, they really rally behind. [00:04:26] Andrew: No. Oh, and it would not be a podcast episode without talking about a scan and of course, board apes. And I don't mean that those always go together, but we do see a lot. We do see a lot in this time was it was a 200. Security breach after someone gained access to their discord, posted a link for minting, some sort of new project. [00:04:49] Of course, people Abe right into that, uh, before verifying if it was a legit link or not was not spent 208th. So, um, one of the board, eight founders after this came out and blamed discord security on this, you know, at seams. Uh, I don't know. It seems like board the board ape or the Yugo labs team seems always seems very quick to point the finger at someone else when something goes wrong. [00:05:18] A lot of other projects have had these issues happen and they take responsibility and deal with it. And you know, it's certainly not the first discord scam that we see not going to be the last and it's not unique to subordinate. [00:05:33] George: So for those of you keeping track, it was a theories fault that they duffed the mint and there were problems there. So they're gonna build their own layer. Uh, it was probably Facebook's fault when their Instagram got hacked and people got stolen. It's now discourse all that. They lost their passwords and password management for it. [00:05:53] So right now, just to keep telly at home on their to-do list is build their own layer. One, build their own massive photo sharing website and mobile app to compete and basically fix what's wrong with Instagram and all. Recreate discord, a, a massive online community for secure, uh, conversations in groups. [00:06:13] I feel like they got a great roadmap here. [00:06:16] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think I've seen this playbook before, you know, startups that just decide that they can take on everything in the world because one thing's going well, it's it usually works out quite well. Right. Is that, is that true or do they [00:06:30] George: I never read to the end. [00:06:31] of any story or book. So I'm always on the, like the heroes rise and never get to the conclusion of anything. So I see nothing wrong with this pattern of behavior. [00:06:41] Andrew: good. Yeah. All right. Yep. So Turkey's doing well too, right? Never get to the end. What their, [00:06:50] George: No spoilers. [00:06:52] Andrew: all right. So actually I should mention that the board ape community. The, or the dowel or the members of the Dow. So those are eight token holders just voted against the proposal to move to a new chain or to start their own chain, whatever it was, they want to stay on the Ethereum network. It was a relatively close, uh, vote. [00:07:14] I think it was about. I came on 55, 50 7%, uh, against moving off of a theory them. So there were a couple of large holders. I think there was one that actually had about 17% of the votes. So, um, he realized that ha only takes a few holders to, to really swing things there. And, uh, they are staying on Ethereum, which as we've said, I think is the right move. [00:07:34] That's where they got their start and it has helped them immensely. So I think that's good, but you see a large part of the community still wants to leave the network. [00:07:42] All right. Next one here. We've got, uh, pace, uh, the pace, art, art gallery, or art. Uh, what do you call it? That I know the name pays art. Um, but they're partnering with. Um, just ahead of NFP NYC, sounds like they will have a gallery open during the event. Um, so certainly it lends more credibility to, to generative art, uh, such as those that are, uh, produce bone, the art blocks platform [00:08:13] George: Yeah, you love following the, uh, the art box stuff. And, you know, we talked about not NYC. She getting ready for a ride. You punch your ticket yet. [00:08:22] Andrew: going soon, going soon. [00:08:24] George: Nice. [00:08:26] Andrew: And then one more, uh, we mentioned this here, that we've got the Ethereum proof of stake customer has gone live. So what does that mean? It means that one, the first test that they have several test networks of the Ethereum network, the first one for the, the merged. Ben talked about where proof, where a theory that moved from a proof of work to proof of proof of stake network. [00:08:56] Um, the they'll do, I think it's three or four. I think it's three different networks to test this out. The first one's gone live, it seems like it has gone. Uh, there was one little, uh, issue that. Figured out pretty quickly. So that is good news. They'll continue to do some work tests. Sounds like if everything goes well. [00:09:14] Um, if ever as far as testing here that the merge could be live by August. Uh, one of the core developers of Ethereum has said that it would be no later than December, so they are pretty confident or they're very competent that it will come this year. Um, you know, we can talk more about that. We've alluded to, to this in the past, but it will be a big difference for the network as far as for, for, uh, NFT users for collectors. [00:09:40] It shouldn't really make much of a difference in order to make any difference in what we're experiencing or doing on the network, but it will be big for, um, uh, for some of the arguments against NFTs and also for, uh, the scalability of Ethereum in general. [00:09:56] George: Yeah, I think we've put off having a speculation of what this means, because the mergers like this they've mythically talked about it as early as 2017. So, you know, keep that in the back of your mind, but this is a very, very positive, real code, real push and real example of something going well overall, you know, the highlights is that it won't decrease the cost of gas. [00:10:16] So, you know, transferring your NFTs are still going to be ridiculous at the time and wait for gas. It will, I believe increase, uh, the underlying asset for a number of reasons, which means that your. And FTS will, you know, appreciate it, that at that value. Um, and it's a good sign for, for that network and the base hopefully, but who knows? [00:10:40] I feel like we should do an episode on it and just speculate. It's not ready though. I want to wait until like July when it's like more of like a, an incoming thing, [00:10:49] Andrew: it's coming. July. July is around the corner. I mean, here, this, this episode is what we are getting towards. Yeah. We're mid junior. [00:10:58] George: it? A late? Let's wait for a few more tests. Net runs, and then we'll just speculate on, uh, what we think the merge might do to NFTs [00:11:05] Andrew: absolutely. We should. I love to speculate and then be wrong. [00:11:10] George: and then delete. Do you ever go back into the edit it? No, we're too lazy for that. All right. Do we have yes and affordable project. Okay. [00:11:20] Thank you block bounce for sharing this, uh, pretty ridiculous project D Jen's NFT. And you know, I'm not quite sure where to begin other than first off, you have to go to this website, but also like Warren be warned when you do, because it's, um, it's very noisy. [00:11:43] And so with this kids, it's, uh, I have thousands of collection of 5,000 of these things. And I can't even think with this noise, it's a collection of. Yeah, 5,555. The creators are doxed. The actual leader of it is a very, very young, I think they're like 22, but also there's like a web dev involved. There is a marketer involved. [00:12:13] So, you know, you actually know this team. The actual art is pretty simple. I'd say this, you know, comic base, but they're trying to harken back. There's windows themed website and there's like flappy birds on it It's hilarious. It looks like literally like your windows 95 background is so there I'm missing new drops and other pieces around that current floor sits around 0.03 for, uh, owner to item ratio is about 50%. Which is kinda, which is good, you know, in terms of distribution and they have an active discord though. It's a little weird because I'd say that the number of people in this discord is far more than the number of holders. There's always like, all right, they may have juiced, uh, they may have do some numbers, uh, along the way, uh, to have a total number of discord legions at 34,000, but only have 27 holder 2,700 holders means yes, Yeah, they did some, some hacks to get that number, number, number, go up. [00:13:11] Andrew: Yeah, it definitely looks like they've played around with those numbers a bit. I love the love, the website here, windows 95. I actually had clicked off that, came back to it and was trying to figure out what was going on, on where the page went, because there was just all sorts of lines, moving all over my screen and then realized that they built in a screensaver for this site as well. [00:13:33] So it's a, it's a really cool site. I like it. I hadn't heard about this until we were just talking about it right before the show here. So checking it out. I do like the, uh, like the art here. They're all animated little pieces or if they all have an element of animation, um, That is, I don't love when I see the numbers being way off like that, you know, I, uh, uh, you know, I'm sure that it's, it's, we know that it's not the most common, um, practice out there, but you know, like to see when things do grow organically, um, you know, and I'm sure that it sounds like they are doing that as well, because we've definitely had this bro, you know, thank you for bringing this to us, uh, block balanced by the way, you know, so they're definitely getting organic growth as well. [00:14:15] So that's good to see. [00:14:17] George: Full disclosure. Three of these things around somewhere, uh, they've got this poison drop coming, but they're doing it in a clever way. Well, they'll, you know, drop an extra thing that as they claim will be. Important in their ecosystem, but you have to have an unlisted, so you can see there, they're playing the game. [00:14:36] They're trying to get people to D lists so that they can more quickly like manipulate the floor and manipulate the price and value. Like they're marketers, they're they're savvy and you know, they're, they're going to hustle for a bit. So, um, I wouldn't say this is a long-term hold, but, um, I'm playing the game. [00:14:54] I'm playing the game. Cause it's interesting watching these like Freemans and Lomans like some random ones are just taking off, uh, with a team and energy to just, not as many as before now, the overall market was about 5% down over the past week in terms of like NFT volume. But it's still things that are taking off randomly. [00:15:14] Andrew: Yeah, that's true. There's definitely, there's definitely still movement in some projects here and there. It's, it's sneaky because there's like you said, not a ton of volume out there. So you got to look closely to find it right now. [00:15:25] George: Yeah, exactly. And I did, I did see some volume and that's one of the things that actually initially attracted to me or attracted me to it. Like they quickly mint it out. So there was a hype and interest and, you know, Ms. A team with a plan that stocks. Okay. So, you know, my financial advice and talking about JPEGs on the unit. [00:15:41] Andrew: All right. Yeah. Thanks again. To block bounds for bringing that up. [00:15:44] George: Legislating NFTs. I'm excited. I just, I, you know, I, uh, I thought this day would kind of not come, but there are top line points, you know, to pull out that are in this proposed bill. It was, uh, I can't believe that they did this, but guess how many pages the proposed bill was? [00:16:06] Andrew: 69. Was it 69? [00:16:08] George: It was 69. So 69 paid proposal. Somebody did that on purpose [00:16:15] Andrew: Oh, man. Yeah. Well, [00:16:16] George: that doesn't have an [00:16:17] Andrew: there's N yeah, there's no better way to ingratiate yourself to the crypto community than by following the meme. [00:16:26] George: Ha ha you must obey the means, but there, uh, I mean, so actually, you know, in keeping with that, it was it's actually, I'd say net, net favorable, um, one is they're proposing. It'd be no new taxes on crypto transactions under $200. So that's like a nod on saying like, look, if I'm doing it as a transaction, why do I have to pay capital gains on something? [00:16:47] Also acting like a currency. So that is a, that's a huge, huge, huge thing. If you're talking about that, um, people have the right to self custody of their digital assets. That is awesome. Meaning that, um, if you bought something on a platform that was acting as a custodian and they didn't allow you to also get your own wallet involved or export it, like that's not allowed. [00:17:10] And that's a fantastic standard. Another one, most crypto assets are viewed as commodities rather than securities and, you know, super complicated when you get into it. But right now they're looked at as commodities. I think that's good overall because the sec does not like [00:17:28] Andrew: Yes, less SCC involvement I would say is generally a good thing. [00:17:33] George: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's the good Cliff's notes on It [00:17:36] Andrew: It would make it a lot more complicated for, for NFT or for crypto projects in general, if everything was a security and you had to basically get here to all of the sec regulations when creating any kind of crypto project. [00:17:52] George: Yeah, very, very common. Mining taxes, mined Bitcoin currently taxed as income at the moment it gets mined. I think this is also like a touch on like defy as well. Like the moment it gets my versus realized. So like, there's a question of like, has this been realized yes or no? And you actually can get stuck with a pretty big tax bill from something that fluctuates in price after it gets dropped to you. And this could also be. You know, you know, we talked about, for instance, like flower fam things that are distributing coins to you, does that happen at the point that it was distributed to you or the point that you move it into its next phase? And that's a big, big, big difference sometimes, especially, uh, speaking to somebody who held Elvis at two different points in time. [00:18:38] And when they were worth a thousand X a different. [00:18:41] Andrew: And which way are they? I'm sorry, I didn't actually see that part. Which way are they going to, are they proposing to legislate that? [00:18:47] George: Yeah. So they're saying that, uh, the bill is proposing that miners will not be taxed after they sell. So it's the moment of sale, not the moment of distribution. Right? [00:18:58] Andrew: Great. Okay. That's yeah, I'd say that's much more fair to, to the minor, you know, there's less pressure to sell them too, because when you, if you're texting on the point that you get it, you sort of need to sell some immediately to cover those taxes. And that's not great either. [00:19:16] George: Yeah. There's a lot of problems there, especially with how quickly, again, like these currencies can change. And, uh, another big one is that stable coins have to maintain a hundred percent reserve intent. Luna. [00:19:29] Andrew: Yeah, that's obviously a good one to have in there after the Luna disaster. Um, although I, you know, I'm not sure that it will, I don't know. I'm not sure it would have prevented that, that problem in general. [00:19:43] George: I mean USD T right. Tether, classically as like, uh, a varied bank of assets that back it, but where it's not entirely clear what those assets. They actually had the firepower to withstand what seemingly was a follow on attack to them. But I think a logic, a lot of those things are just logical. It's like I quit. [00:20:03] I couldn't believe how much common sense was in this bill. And I was, I was shocked actually. [00:20:08] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it seems good overall, you know, we, you know, it would be great to get some more clarity on how NFTs will be treated. Uh, sounds like we are going to have to wait a bit for that. Um, a new asset class makes me think that, you know, there's at least some consideration being given to the accident. [00:20:27] These can't be treated with. With what we currently have in place. And, you know, I'm hopeful that that means that we will find something that I don't know isn't treating every sale with under a year, like a short-term capital gains sale. Um, I, you know, I think that we need to find a better way because the taxes right now in, in on NFTs are, it's a big, it's a big cost when. [00:20:55] When you're trading these and you know, at this point, there's certainly, it's certainly difficult to say that you're going to buy and hold for over a year. Um, and in most cases, [00:21:07] George: But think about the functionality as well, that is ultimately hampered in any sort of forge mechanic. Right? So for a thing where I have to take two entities and merge them together to get a new thing, what did I just do? I just incurred a short-term capital gain tax on. Those those assets. And now I have this new asset, like it simply doesn't work treating it as this type of commodity with these types of, uh, short-term long-term gains, uh, involve it. [00:21:34] It's hampering the tech in the same way that when online stores and e-commerce first came out and they were like, well, how do we do sales tax? Because it's on the online, each individual statement still like a bit confusing, but there are some standards that have rolled out that said like, okay, here's a new technology and a new way that things need to operate. [00:21:52] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, something that did happen, you know, you're right. That, that did take time for taxes to roll out with correctly with e-commerce and, you know, brought to mind. Amazon fought against those for so long. And then once they sort of had their position, you know, we're quick to, to fight for tax laws being put in place. [00:22:14] And I do hope that, you know, we, aren't looking at another situation where it's helping the current, uh, or the established players and, and at a, at a detriment to, uh, to. Players that are coming up in the crypto market possessed. We know we're still very young here and we need a lot more new things coming up. [00:22:35] So I hope that that is, you know, that we are really fostering innovation in this space. When, when this, uh, built is finalized. [00:22:44] George: Yeah, I didn't see any note on like when this might. Come through at all. I feel like they have a slow summer to get here, but I'd imagine sometime this year. [00:22:56] Andrew: Yeah, I would hope so. Um, you know, Uh, well I'm sure. See lots of, uh, political, um, I don't know, arguing about this as we get to midterm elections as well, because I think that, you know, as I say, I think crypto will become a bigger and bigger issue in elections and politics in general. [00:23:17] George: I think you're right. The crypto friendly politician and policy was going to be a very, very quick button to get pressed for money. Little thing I know about politicians, they like money. And so if you're saying that, Hey, we're crypto friendly and I have crypto friendly policies. See right here, you're going to get support from the community. [00:23:38] You know, notably, you know, same Sam Bain and freed said he may be dropping. Seriously, billions of dollars on this election cycle. And it wasn't saying that it wasn't going to be explicitly around crypto, but let's be honest. If a crypto multi-billionaire is becoming a, you know, active political force, it may Dawn on you that you may have the need to have a crypto policy in mind. [00:24:04] And probably be one that is semi favorable as are frankly. Most tax law policies that favor the rich in our country. Anyway. So like you're, even if you have small bags, you're like you're on a big wagon. I think. [00:24:20] Andrew: Yeah. You know, it's a good way of putting it. Um, you know, we do have to hope that these people, we have to hope that the crypto industry fights the right way and you know, and it does make me concerned. There's a lot of really big bag holders that don't necessarily need to, uh, that don't have the, aren't looking for the same outcome as a lot of other people that are in crypto as most of the people that are in crypto. [00:24:48] Um, you know, and they, you know, just be careful, I guess, as we're, as we're getting into this, the pro crypto, um, stance can be a wide range of things. [00:24:59] George: Yeah, that's true. There's a lot that fits under that umbrella. And it's easy to paint right now with one brush because there's, there's only like X number of million wallets involved, but once that starts getting up there, there's going to be a wider array, I think is really good though. A reminder of how early we are in NFTs, like genuinely early, like the asset class and tax laws have not even been established for this technology yet. [00:25:27] And now once it does get there and you'd have the U S government taking seriously, the idea of crypto and non vulnerable tokens and this idea of digital ownership as something that's going to be passed into law. And once it does, it will definitely. everyone is not coming, but it is a strong narrative for why this is not a fad and why this will be here over a longer period of time. [00:25:52] Andrew: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the, uh, the NFT section of the wall street journal at some point. [00:25:58] George: Oh, the fact that they're not selling their own pages, just silly, like sell your own bed, like the times should be doing it every day. It's such a no brainer for money. I just feel like there are just stodgy humans that are just like, we can't do it on principle. Like cool. Is that the same principle that lets you run all those ads? [00:26:17] Andrew: Hi magazine has managed to move ahead. Somehow nobody was paying attention to time magazine for a long time. And. They decided to get active in NFD isn't there. I don't know. They're certainly they're active and they're doing new things. And I think they're bringing in a whole lot more in digital revenue than they were before. [00:26:40] George: Yeah. Well, when your back is against the wall, you tend to try new things. And so there you go, right? Desperation brings out innovation. All right. that's what I got. We'll follow it. If there's a new, a new vote or something moved on it. I love speculating on this kind of thing, but positive. Wow. Positive things. [00:26:59] Andrew: All right. Good talking to George. [00:27:02] George: See ya.    

Let's talk Dune Analytics Dune is a platform for analyzing on-chain data via PostgreSQL Most features free Learn how to use Dune (Andrew/Rantum lead lesson on NFT data) Uniswap Community Analytics contest with payouts for all qualified entries    Affordable project: what's on your shopping list: George: Akutars, MoonCats https://opensea.io/collection/acclimatedmooncats?search[sortAscending]=true&search[sortBy]=PRICE  https://opensea.io/collection/akutars  Andrew: FewoWorld, Regulars https://opensea.io/collection/regulars  https://opensea.io/collection/fewoworld-paint?tab=activity  NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Someone Stole Seth Green's Bored Ape, Which Was Supposed To Star In His New Show  Pharma Bro Martin Shkreli: Ethereum's Vitalik Buterin 'Brilliant' But Also 'Full of Shit' - Decrypt  SuperRare in SoHo: NFTs in the Real World      Transcript rough:   [00:00:00] George: on all about affordable and FTS. We're talking about dune analytics. What is it? What can it do for me? Fortunately, we have an expert in house, Andrew who will be able to explain a bit more of that. But first, Andrew, what are you seeing in the news [00:01:01] Andrew: Sorry, I'm just adjusting this wizard hat that I have on over here, of course, because it's not experts. I'm a dune wizard. Sorry. [00:01:09] George: Gotta use the lexicon minus. [00:01:12] Andrew: Uh, Anyway. All right. What are we seeing out there? So this is, this is an interesting one. We've got another, another board aid theft, you know, we've we talk about another crypto theft or scam all the time, but this one is uh, from Seth green. Um, It was with his board aid. I think there were a couple of mutant apes, maybe as well in the wallet, but this, so someone hacked the wallet, they got these. [00:01:35] So, but what's really interesting about this was that he had been developing a animated series using these apps. So he had been working on this since July uh, It's a considerable amount of time that has been put into this. And we've also seen the price rise a lot since July. So he was smart enough to buy them at a much lower price and has been working to put these into an animated series. [00:01:58] He has produced many of them in the past. So um, you know, I think it had a pretty good chance of. You know, seeing uh, seeing some production and get, actually getting out there, but now these have been taken. And there's a question of whether he has the right uh, the IP rights to continue producing the show. [00:02:17] Uh, At least one of the apes was that was stolen, has been resold to another user or another uh, sorry. It's a Twitter user that he's trying to reach out to, to no avail at this point. Um, It seems unlikely that that buyer would have known that it was uh, stolen, but you know, it does bring up some questions about what happens with the IP here. [00:02:43] George: I mean, there's no question. You don't know. You're not on the IP and suddenly you built an asset and some it, you know, what it equates to like domain squatting. You let your domain run out, but then you built this giant company which relies on that domain name specifically because it's built into everything that you've done. [00:03:01] And you're just sitting out there in the breeds. Honestly, you know, the it's tough too, because this is so far into the public sphere of people being like, that's why NFTs aren't safe. I gotta be honest if you're building up that much asset around it, like you shouldn't have had it in a hot wallet, it could have been like click, click the buy on it. [00:03:20] You know, that's, that's when you transfer to cold storage and you put it in a safe, if you're putting that much equity behind it, you know, it's, it's unfair maybe to expect that from the average user to be like, oh, well, you know, you got hacked, it's your fault. But if you're, if you're investing that amount, like, you know, that that's pretty serious. [00:03:38] Um, That's pretty serious that in terms of you have to take your, your. [00:03:43] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the only, the only reason I say there's some question about it is that if it's stolen and that person is possessing them, they wouldn't necessarily. Own the IP, but if they've been resoled and the person doesn't have doesn't even have knowledge, you know, I don't know. That's, there's all sorts of questions about this, but I doubt that those will, that the production will happen with the same NFTs. [00:04:07] So maybe there'll be replaced. I think it would be cool to see, you know, to see an animated series with these, you know, and start seeing how people can use uh, use the IP that are, that you get is trying to give to two holders. [00:04:21] George: Yeah, I, you know, my heart goes out to him. It's like, it's, it's tough. You're, you're, that's a hard, hard place to be. And it's clear that he's like trying to make a lot of noise to try to get some sort of public support back. But there's no support customer helpline. There's a wallet with an address and a secret key. Oh, [00:04:38] Andrew: And for some reason that seems to attract all of, all of the people that just, I don't know, see, see opportunity and we'll run a scam and try to do it without calling it a scam. We've got Martin Shkreli coming back out of get fresh out of prison. He's easy already. He says he learned how to use Metta mask while in prison. [00:05:01] Um, He's, you know, all over Twitter spaces talking about this now has called uh, Vitalik Buterin, S as reading this headline, he's told him brilliant, but also full of shit. So, you know, he's wasting no time and stirring up headlines. Can't imagine that he doesn't see all sorts of opportunity in crypto and NFTs. [00:05:23] I would be very wary of, of what he is touching um, and state far away. If uh, if you can help it, [00:05:32] George: Are you suggesting that cult personalities tend to lead toward disastrous outcomes? [00:05:39] Andrew: we have seen a couple, couple [00:05:42] George: Name one name one in the last, in the last two weeks. Just name one. [00:05:46] Andrew: Okay, well dope. What are we counting at once? Or has another one already happened? He may have already rubbed everybody again. [00:05:54] George: You cannot repeat offenders. You can't triple stamp a double stamp. Cool. Uh, Yeah. again. [00:06:02] I joking aside be. Be very wary of cultural personalities and our recent episode, we were just talking about our suspicions of Adam Newman. I don't know when, you know, you are more selling yourself and selling somebody on an idea rather than your actual execution of work. [00:06:19] There's a there's questions. There's questions that come up and it tends that you're, you're serving the ego rather than the true outcome of a. Uh, With, with potential leaders like this, there'll be interested in the watch from the sidelines though, on the plus side, he's very bullish Heath. [00:06:38] Andrew: There we go. [00:06:39] George: He thinks he is going to flip Bitcoins. So in this I support you. Anything you want to do to help that train, let me know. [00:06:47] Andrew: All right. And one more uh, one more thing of note here. Super rare. The art platform has opened up a gallery in New York in Soho. Uh, I think it is a it's. It's good to see these galleries opening up. I think it's a good way to start bringing, bringing the art aspect of this to life a bit more and letting people see this from not just looking at it on their phones or computers and, you know, do this in a social. [00:07:13] Public setting. [00:07:15] George: It just makes also a ton of sense. Cities like New York where there's not a lot of wall space and you can essentially have like, I mean, I've seen your rig and love it. And you've got your art, like on display, rotating through you have one spot and you want to have pieces move through. And it makes a lot of sense actually. [00:07:38] And I could definitely see it as a trend that picks up. Uh, It would help hopefully a longer tail of artists and collectors get in into that practical IRL case of why the heck did you buy that JPEG? It's common. We just, just gotta wait, wait for youth. Not to be under 2000 and the market nut to be bleeding every single week. [00:07:59] I'm not going anywhere though. I'll say that I'm I'm pot committed. I'm full sunk cost fallacy. Um, Alright, affordable projects, the plus side, right. [00:08:11] The plus side of the market's going down is it is time to keep your eye on a shopping list. You know, it's finally not about FOMO. It's about uh, what you know, and where you see long-term value. We played that game of looking back. A year into crypto slam and saying like, oh, this, these are the projects that survived and did. [00:08:31] And right now there's two projects that I'll, I'll continue. Uh, There's more than two, but I'm choosing to, and Andrew, you can have uh, two or, or more, as many as you want as well. So one of the projects I'm going to keep keeping my eye on is . And this is the one that famously had that really sad sort of, I think it was like $30 million mistake on the mint, but they did launch and it is a, you know, a series and put together that has, I think a lot of upside, a strong, a strong team and founder behind it. [00:09:04] And with uh, with avatars, what I also like is that there's a sort of movie plans in the future, so it's not like, oh, and then there'll be a game I'm like, I'm kinda done. I'm done with the game. You're not going to create a game that's going to change value, but I do believe in the raw truth of the more attention you can get in the future uh, the, the better the outcome will be. [00:09:26] And this is a 15,000 unique 3d art guitars. And it's uh, one of the series that have been put out there, help me with uh, the founder's name. I just blanked on it, but the floor price is 0.6. Yeah, Mike and Johnson. [00:09:38] Thank you. Former baseball dropped from that, moved into artists, and that guy is just plain old motivating when you hear him. [00:09:46] And right now, you know, the price at 0.65, I'll say my um, my reservation price on this I'll make a definite buy if this kinda kicks down to 0.5, but you know, it was as high as you know uh, you know, 2.7 from what I see. Um, But there's a lot of things losing speed. And some of them I think, are going to weather the storm. [00:10:08] And I think this in particular for the depth of work amount of motivation and what I like on the roadmap uh, how has my eye, what do you have on your list of shopping? [00:10:19] Andrew: I like that picked there. I have been watching that one as well, actually in tech, definitely [00:10:23] George: What's your reservation price, where you, where are you falling? I'm going to do 1.01 ahead of you. [00:10:28] Andrew: I was going to say, I was going to go, price is right on you. And, [00:10:34] George: I'm just going to be watching your thread. [00:10:37] Andrew: um, So yeah, let's see, I've got a couple of my lists. One is fuel world, which we've talked about in the past. I, that seems like one. That's not getting much attention, but it's one that I think is still worth looking at and looking. I um, I think I'm pretty close to. To pick it up another one there. Um, I think it's, it's a, it's a good longer term hold and. [00:10:59] People are overlooking some of the uh, the rarity aspects there. And uh, I noticed that uh, he posted a few times a few emotions. uh, posted a few times from the econ recently um, doing some paint uh, paint parties there. And I think it's just going to be something that um, I don't know, people pick up on it and just gains more uh, Just just more fans over time. [00:11:24] So I'm still looking at that one. There's some good prices. Look, you know, I think it come it's around a little under 0.3, five right now. And I think, you know, he might be able to get that a little bit lower. Um, If your patient there. [00:11:36] George: Yeah, quick take on that. I a full disclosure. I have two of them. I did pick up. I did like that. It was on my list. Try to get an wait, wait on it. A pink count of two, not a pink count of one. I was looking at doodles and I have a two doodle, but the pink count actually is a big differentiator. And every now and then someone just makes a mistake and listing it and they kind of go for pretty low. So take a look in there. Yeah. [00:12:02] Andrew: those took two minutes essentially. Um, On nifty, when you first admitted those, you had to, you got, if you committed to it, morphed into a, to paint um, NFT. So there maybe. You know, maybe people, a little tired of waiting or that maybe just didn't understand what they were buying initially and thought they were going to get to. [00:12:24] So that's good too. A good note to look for. [00:12:27] George: Yeah. Also uh, another quick hack on that is check the nifty sites so far. It hasn't proven true. The lower prices I've been continually on open. See, but check nifty cause. Confused buyers, especially if there's a sudden shift and impressive beef begins to go up. Um, That'll actually flip the odds Right. now when you dropping, right? [00:12:47] Because nifty gateway is a Fiat first listing And open C is a first listing, which means when those prices fluctuate, where weird things happen. [00:13:02] Andrew: Right. And what else do you have on your list, George? [00:13:05] George: Oh, I'm just checking to see if any recent two painters went for something low to two painter to paint or went for 0.5. I can't turn it off. Two painter went for 0.59. That's interesting. All [00:13:19] Andrew: I've got this next one on here that we've talked about another few times as well. [00:13:24] George: Yeah. I, I feel like I have to say it cause it comes up. I won't, I won't let a good moon get die. Moon cats. Oh, gee ponder where created them. They've been around for quite some time. And, you know, they continue to iterate ponder where there was a recent pump of this. When I probably, I mean, I floated out there to try to flip it, but it's back down to the 0.3 east. [00:13:50] And here's what I think in terms of this play, this team is going to continue to push on it. And even if they don't, it seems like it's, you know, a project pun intended has nine. Where there's a, I believe a future where a lot of this money coming in and they say, Hey, instead of creating a new project, let's pick up one with history and revive it and Potter where has already put it out into the universe that they're willing to sell it for the Right. price, which could drive a lot of attention and upside again, even just the conversation did. [00:14:19] So uh, no one's paying attention to this right now. It's hovering at 0.3. If it drops below that that's my reservation to, to begin picking up. If it's in the mid twenties, [00:14:31] Andrew: Right. Yeah. That's a moon cats. Um, You know, [00:14:34] George: No, more moon cast for you. [00:14:36] Andrew: No, I don't need more moon cats right now. I've got some older ones. Um, You know, I I'd love to see some uh, some more interest pickup there, but yeah, they, you know, it's one that a lot of people still talk about and a lot of people hold just don't pay much attention to. [00:14:50] George: What's the hot take. What's the hot take on, on what the shop for, in terms of new, since you know, [00:14:54] that thing is. [00:14:57] Andrew: Um, Well, you've got, so the rare ones are considered the ones from 2017 um, especially, but 2018. So most of the foreign ones are going to be, or they're all going to be at the 2020 ones. You may want to look for cures. Um, There's a number of different shades to these, but peers tend to hold more value across all of the colors. [00:15:17] Um, Otherwise I'd [00:15:18] George: So that's the code color. So like red, pure, or [00:15:21] Andrew: Yeah. So orange Tabby, I guess, would be the orange Tabby is generally the most expensive of any of the floor pieces. Um, Things that look like characters, things that look like Garfield or um, other famous cats tend to hold extra value. Um, You can also look for things that have twins. [00:15:42] There are, there are collectors that are looking for the twins. You can get even one half of that, you know, you can sometimes end up finding that those have more value. Um, Yeah. You know, I'd also look at, look at the face of it. Um, There's some that don't have the clearest faces, the, and those don't tend to sort of don't tend to send, sell real fast. [00:16:04] Um, It's just based on how the coloring is, you know, the different spots or stripes within the face, but a clear face is generally a preferred when people are buying those. So that's some of the, some of the traits that I know about these, I know more, more, but you know, you feel free to hop in the discord and ask me if you are a [00:16:21] George: Getting that discord, get them talking about moon cats. [00:16:23] He won't stop. [00:16:27] Andrew: All right, I've got one other. And so this is one, this is a newer project, but it was one that I was going to even mention as an affordable project. And the price has been bouncing around a bit. Um, It's now up to about, up to 20. I'm sorry. Point two, four right now. Uh, What I was first going to mention it, it was at like 0.1, eight or so I have um, I have one of these, sorry. [00:16:53] I have two of these, not it's actually in my alt wallet. So wouldn't have noticed this. Uh, But I, I staked one NFTE ex um, where. They were offering a good uh, sticking percentage for putting it there um, was able to pick it up, but a good price. And like I said, it's moved quickly here, so I'm not recommending necessarily jumping into it right away. [00:17:18] I am going to adding link here so people can, can look at it. Um, Uh, Sorry. And so this is a collection of a thousand pieces. It is, I believe that it is. Hold on, let me, let me check that one. Um, It's by the artist pops. So there it's very realistic looking faces um, that it's just called regulars. It's kind of 3d ish faces. [00:17:50] Yeah. The floor is at point just, just under 0.2, four as we speak. So I think that may come down again. So it's one that I'm kind of waiting to come down. I have noticed that there's a lot of people kind of picking up some of the rare traits. At higher prices also, you know, relatively quickly. So, you know, you may, you know, it's worth watching because people list um, you know, certainly don't realize what they're listing at times. [00:18:14] Um, I don't know. It incredibly well. I've looked at uh, things like the type um, and then just various uh, Characteristics like the glasses or hair color to try to, to understand, you know, some of the rarities here, but you know, there's definitely some visual aspect to this. Um, When you're looking at these, I don't know much about the future plans. [00:18:36] I don't know a ton about it. So, you know, don't have the whole in-depth part, but I, you know, got that the one in starting to look a little bit more at these. Um, And yeah, like I said, that price has run out, but. Does it makes me, it makes me want to jump in and realize that I shouldn't do that because I should wait for that pro that for, to fill back in. [00:18:56] And, you know, I think we will see that a bit here. So it's one that I'm watching and looking for a good entry price for more, you know, as I said, I did do, I did get one. [00:19:06] George: Yeah, this like it launched in 20 21, 11 21. So in November of 2021, and then sort of like, I mean, it drifted at 0.03 for quite some time. so that's like, those are the times to find these projects. That's what we're trying to do with some of the shopping here. I see. It's like beginning to taper off from that, that recent peak where it, and it got the 0.5 as a, as a floor for Ethan. [00:19:32] It seems to be calming a little, but it's hard, hard to tell from the peak trough here. Interesting Sama. And I just added my watch list, but I got a lot of stuff here. I think um, I'm really hopeful that I can pick up a knock guitar. And affordable thing and I have to sell a thing to get that done. Really trying to be judicious about how much more money I'm pumping in cold. All right. Our theme. Um, Yeah, let's talk to an analytics, What are we talking about? [00:20:04] Andrew: Yeah, so an analytics uh, I use this tool every day. It's a lot, like I use this for a lot of work, but I also use it to, you know, just to start analyzing things that I need more information on this. Lets you look at anything on the blockchain, any transactions that are happening on the Ethereum network on polygon on optimism. [00:20:23] Uh, I think that. The electric, maybe a couple others as well, but you can use basic sequel queries to start looking up information on this and then present it to, you know, being able to visualize this in a very uh, you know, very easy um, graphs, charts, tables um, make something of this blockchain data, you know, it sounds, I don't know. [00:20:48] I think in some ways it sounds more complicated than it is. Um, If you. SQL is a relatively um, relatively approachable programming language that a lot of people use for, for maintaining databases it's been around for, I don't know, 30 years or so. Um, So it's, it's a lot of documentation on it and it's relatively. [00:21:10] Approachable to, to get going on this platform with, with not without a ton of knowledge of the coding language. So I think that's, that's really powerful because otherwise you're looking at, you know, trying to read blockchain data in a completely different way. It's, it's much more complicated. This makes it relatively easy to see um, what aspects are making up um, each transaction um, from there. [00:21:38] I mean, you can take it to any number of uh, any number of degrees of how much you want to look into it, what you want to cross the, the data with, you know, look at various wallets specific activity. Um, You know, it's, it's really endless how much you can uh, start working or continue looking into transactions once you. [00:21:58] George: What's really great. Here is also if you have a project and you're kind of wondering about it, it gives you another place to drop it in. You can do a search and see if anybody has built a custom dashboard for it. Uh, Built for various communities that have literally hired you to build out these custom dashboards. [00:22:13] And then those dashboards are public. Most of the stuff on dune seems to be just open in the air because that's how they essentially have built it unless you're paying for like a premium membership to, to make it private. So there's a lot of quality stuff out there. And if you're. Looking to get into it. [00:22:28] You can always, I feel like you can, am I write, copy these things as a template and then modify them and kind of learn from what the queries that are already in place are [00:22:38] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can fork any of these, you know, that these different term for it, because then that sounds so much better than copying someone's work, you know, or just forking that work a fork in these dashboards. And that is really one of the cool things. If you see that, you know, if you see that there's a great. [00:22:53] Dashboard for neat bits or whatever. And you just want to do that same exact dashboard for um, you know, for act Qatar. Um, You can go, just get the contract address. You swap out the contract address and you're looking at the exact same information just for a different contract. Um, That's one of the things that I've done with my dashboards is try to make it so you can put any contract address rate in there so you can make these. [00:23:18] Um, You can customize them to whatever the project is that you're using, but I can go for it. That goes for anything on the platform. And I mean, there's some really impressive dashboards, both for NFTs and for uh, Nate, just crypto work in general. I mean, any, any crypto project, it seems has a dashboard in there. [00:23:36] Um, I know that there's looked at some, some uh, search query data and they definitely get people looking for. You know, for um, moon, moon cats dune on, you know, there are people searching for that kind of thing on Google. Um, There are people looking for doing specific dashboards when they go into Google, which I think is uh, it's interesting that, you know, it has that sort of name recognition already. [00:24:03] Um, It has been around for awhile. It's a real. Relatively old the team in the crypto space, they launched, I think back in 2018, but I think they are a team of under 10 until this year. So it's been um, been around, but they have been able to do. a platform that um, I don't know that they can deal with all sorts of different parts of crypto. [00:24:28] We've seen, you know, defy be extremely popular. We've seen obviously NFTs rise in popularity and it's been able to be used for, you know, for all of these different use cases, which I think says a lot about both the platform and the nature that we're all working on the same, Ethereum, blockchain, you know, granted, I said other other layers as well, or. [00:24:48] But it's pretty cool that this data it's all there, we're working on the same thing. And no matter what the transaction is, we're using the same chain. [00:24:57] George: I'd say the good parallel here is kind of like Google analytics and data studio in some ways, if you're in the marketing world and to that end, I think there's a huge upside. If you're trying to get a job in crypto, you're really trying to like actually refine a skill, like no offense to our super abilities here to pick out affordable projects and run a podcast. [00:25:17] For a tangible, freaking skill. Like you have this course, we have linked to it directly in this episode, start there, start somewhere. But like, this is sort of raw skill. This doesn't have to do with coding. Cause frankly, Luke, look, we're not all going to suddenly switch our day jobs. You know, chain, chain on chain coders like that, you know, that's a different path, but certainly I think there's a lot more intelligence that could be built into a lot of projects. [00:25:45] A lot of creators that do this, but there's a whole whole world. And like, you're one of the top creators on this platform and you know, not gonna, not going to give too much away, but you, you taught yourself this, like you went from zero to like, let's figure this out. You knew a bit about code in the past, but you've uh, you know, you've been able to March up the way. [00:26:02] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. That is, it's a very, I mean, it's a relatively easy way to get involved and start working a bit in the space. Um, As I didn't learn this a lot on my own, I knew a lot about SQL already, so that definitely helped. And it worked a lot with platforms like Google analytics. If you've used any of these things, then, you know, it's, there's a way in to learning this platform. [00:26:26] Um, One of the, I mean, like I said, one of the cool things is that you can just build on top of what other people have done. But one of the things that I really liked is that there's a ton of bounty opportunities and these. Paid opportunities to, to do work. Um, In some cases it's, it's just paid to one person. [00:26:43] In other cases, it may pay, be paid out to all the participants um, actually serve on a committee of, with the unit swap grants um, program. And this is part of unit swap and they've gotten a grant to uh, community grants. So we get the name exactly of it. Um, But the idea is that we're helping to uh, Provide a bounty or we're creating bounties to get people involved in the um, the unit swaps community um, by looking at these analytics in different ways. [00:27:16] And usually that's usually we have one that is very low end, relatively easy, meant for beginners to get in. And everybody that enters that gets some kind of boundary, as long as they um, actually complete the task. And then we've got a higher end one. More competitive, but there's a much bigger, I think it's a thousand dollar bounty on that one where I think it's, you know, I think it's maybe a hundred dollars on the entry one, so that's still a relatively nice amount to be able to get to do. [00:27:45] But um, the other part is once you start doing these and can build something. a ton of uh, there's a ton of people. There's a ton of demand out there. If w we're looking for more work in this, and I think that's just going to grow because it, most, most of these web three businesses aren't even paying attention to these analytics quite yet. [00:28:05] It's, you know, there's not enough people working in the industry. And as we've said, there's more and more money being, you know, being invested in the space. [00:28:14] George: The other cool thing that I like about doing is that you can embed. Natively into a website. They're really just sort of unpretentious about like, oh Yeah. sure. Take it, run with it, go do it. And you know, on three AFT you'll find a lot of those dashboards embedded on, you know, random in your site. You're going to find a lot of those dashboards as well, embedded. [00:28:32] So you could spin up a full fledged, you know, analytics tool with uh, information about how to particularly use it pretty darn quickly. So here's, here's some home. During the downtime. When, you know, we are maybe not buying and flipping as fast as we, like, you could still sort of spend some of that cycle time. [00:28:53] I feel like it's that night at night, time away from your day job uh, picking up the skill. I think it's, there's a lot of upside here and this would be the platform that I think is going, you know, we're going to make it like, that's the platform that's going to make it because of the way that they're built in a, in a sustainable way was real smart tech. [00:29:14] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. They're just being, so they're building a lot more to make it even more extensible. Adding API is just spending. I think it's great that they make it open, make it a bit of, you know, the source for, for web three data. And I think that. [00:29:28] George: Actually question. I know Eve yes. Polygon. Yes. What about other layer ones? Do you have like, are they like washing them? Like what can I, what kind of build on here? Okay. [00:29:40] Andrew: Yeah, I was actually going to look what they actually have right now. So they do have, I know that they are working on cross chain analytics. So right now they've got a theory. Um, Gnosis polygon, optimism, Binance, and then they are working on. Actually having cross chain analytics. So right now you'd have to run it, run these queries separately, but we'll be able to start running. [00:30:06] Together so that you can much, it'll be much easier to see where uh, you know, how, how Ethereum, how it different transactions, health and things are tokens are flowing across um, various uh, various layers, you know, cause right now we've got this thing where you basically parking your Ethereum somewhere and then you're going and transacting on another layer. [00:30:27] And. Sort of, it's sort of like putting a wall in the middle of this uh, of this visual of transaction. So you've got to look on the one side of what's happening on Ethereum. Then you park your Ethereum there, and then you're looking on the other side. So this will allow it to, well, at least two. I don't know, provide a more transparent view of what people are actually doing when they go to, from a theory of polygon or optimism or, you know, any of these other layers. [00:30:52] And I think there probably will be more coming as

Buy lowish sell highish (shoulders and knees) Buy low, sell high is the old adage but is nearly impossible How to be ok selling for a gain before the absolute peak and buy before the absolute bottom   Affordable project: https://www.smartseasociety.com/nft-tiers  drop link: https://magiceden.io/launchpad/smart_sea_society  NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Ethereum Merge Coming in August 'If Everything Goes to Plan': Core Dev - Decrypt  Soulbound Tokens: What An SBT Is And Why You Should Know  eBay launches its first collection of NFTs in partnership with web3 platform OneOf | TechCrunch  Rough transcript:" [00:00:00] GEorge: Today all about affordable about the strategy of lowish and sell. [00:00:45] Highish basically named for the shoulders and the knees when rather than peak and trough, Andrew, how's it going? What's in the news. [00:00:57] Andrew: Going yeah. What are we seeing see, we've got, oh, it was this. to, uh, you know, people following Ethereum closely, uh, there's news, the merge, uh, is coming in August. That may mean nothing to you, but this will. Transition Eve from a proof of stake to proof of which will reduce, eats. [00:01:21] Energy, uh, the energy consumed. What needs is the run for transactions? Um, there's a lot of other upgrades that, uh, are somewhat technical, but it is big news. It's been pushed back a few times. So if it really is coming in August, that is, uh, that's very good for Eve. Um, and is soon. [00:01:42] GEorge: Yeah, I think there's also upside for layer twos. If I'm understanding some of the news that has been coming out about, how that's going to be making it more efficient to push in blocks and for, you know, things like polygon, optimism, layer, twos that live on top of. Live on top of them with Urime. So I'm very optimistic about it, but I'm trying to abide by my original many rules of don't get too excited. [00:02:10] And don't, over-hype things coming in The future. Everyone's not going to come running east, not going to suddenly triple it'd be nice If it did. Lord knows because actually, you know, recently there was also a hiccup. Uh, Blockstack where they had to like roll [00:02:23] back something like seven blocks and reorg some questions about, you know, [00:02:26] as [00:02:26] their instability. So be [00:02:29] a still very long, you know, a or more to that launch, [00:02:34] because guess what they're building in public, they build on the chain, they build in these public calls and [00:02:39] people are going [00:02:40] to be, you know, playing up and playing down all [00:02:42] of the natural things that happen. [00:02:45] When you try to launch this the macro picture makes me very happy that it's moving [00:02:49] into a much more base and environmentally friendly. If just being raw about the amount of to maintain a Yeah, I think it also can help shift a lot of the narratives that are, um, are out there. So. I'm excited about that part as well. let's see some from, uh, one of the Ethereum valid founders, the most well-known the talent. Peter wrote a post on Seoul bound Lots of the idea of a soul bound token is that unlike an NFT, they would not be able to be transferred to another wallet. this would be, uh, the idea is that it could be used for something. And accreditation a degree or, um, that you earned personally, but somebody else would not be able to just take over. Um, so I think this is something that you'll be hearing more about. There's a lot of, uh, a lot of discussion about it. [00:03:40] Andrew: There aren't projects or anything out yet, but I think it is like to, to just be aware of, and start learning about, because I'm sure we will start seeing more, uh, later in the year. [00:03:51] GEorge: Yeah, there's a lot of ups, you know, there's a lot of upside to which you can see there. it's like oh, what if your wallet gets hacked? Well, again, there are, if it can't be transferred, then it's always associated with that address. So, you know, things would have to go very, very sideways for you to, like completely lose And even if You did it, imagine there's a You are a fingerprint is essentially on the NSC [00:04:14] itself, your fingerprint being that Ethan address, or maybe even identifiable information, you know, there's a lot of different applications that are associated with that. and might, you know, make things like accreditation And things that are inherently you as identity, [00:04:28] uh, be married to certain types of logs that you choose to use. it's not, a headline, but then becomes like, holy cow, could you [00:04:37] believe that like this new technology came do these 60 other [00:04:41] things [00:04:42] and you know, it's kind of, to, to understand that the second order of X, but I tend to, listen when, uh, when Vitalic because [00:04:50] smart. Yeah, I little while for it to uh, to get around because he does lot of words to say it and who it's not, it's not the easiest to read the first time through, so it's good to have other people talking to them about it. And I think we'll start to see people start acting on this a bit more. news of note was the eBay launched an NFT uh, in partnership with, uh, waiting with Wayne Gretzky. So I think, yeah, I don't think this is much of an NFT to, to pay attention to. I think it's a bit more of, um, uh, companies trying to gain some relevance, gain some, some news headlines, uh, Making their way into NFTs. [00:05:36] Andrew: I'm definitely not recommending recommending to mint this unless you happen to be an Wayne Gretzky fan, but, um, just, just, uh, be aware of when companies are getting have, uh, many other ties. [00:05:49] GEorge: Whatever you miss a [00:05:50] hundred per shots you don't take. I got to go mint one. I'm going to go [00:05:53] Andrew: Good. One good one. [00:05:56] GEorge: I had to, you know, I had to, looking [00:05:59] Andrew: All right. So we are getting back to, oh, I'm sorry to get someone else. [00:06:02] GEorge: yeah, just really quick. I to like the overall market, because it was pretty aggressively the other week it's going down. [00:06:10] but not as much it's [00:06:12] Andrew: The pace is slowing down. [00:06:14] GEorge: We're bleeding less How about that? The, the rate of death? Uh, no, the overall NFT market, 16% down looking at a trail in. seven days. Uh, Solana less than a lot of other platforms stop platforms, uh, as opposed to overall and, uh, shout out to our last week, watch the segway last week where we do. a Solano base. Cause we're trying to not be all food all the time. Uh, Solano base our first choice of cardboard citizens. Uh, even though we couldn't mint it because of how fast and awesome the Salada network is uh, it meant it at 1.5 And it's currently sitting at five, five, uh, salon, so five soul. So that would have been a good, nice flip for anyone who listened and executed. [00:07:04] Good, good job to you. If you were able to get in. Uh, or even pick up something off of four before this one went up but it is in the top 20 and certainly in the top number of so lot of NFTs going and play. So keeping on with, uh, the hot hand that I feel like I have based on absolutely no data, minimal research, obviously this is not financial advice. [00:07:28] I'm looking at smart C society, smart S E a society. And this is on magic Eden, and this is going to drop because I'm trying to find things that are upcoming on the launchpad, because I think there is a market that is more and more sniping. These types of. Newly minted and launchpad. I think magic bean does a good job curating and building up and just they're there doxing things and checking it. [00:07:55] Uh, and they have an escrow in place. So like there's some validation that they're doing. And with this one, I see some utility, the actual art of these silly card, photo, realistic fish with different hats and whatnot on them. I think they're angler. And this be both a community, but also a tool, driven and Ft platform analysis and predictions built into it. [00:08:21] And it's going to be, I think, a salon of focus thing. So this is, I'm kind of going back on exactly [00:08:26] what I where, oh, be careful when you get all your money up front, how do you make money going down there? That's a question, certainly, but in terms of utility, it's got a heck of a lot more potential utility than let's off of a board aid that I'm watching. [00:08:39] Just sort of go on Solana. And I have no reason [00:08:42] why, other than it's mean, this seems [00:08:44] like a roadmap with things that are [00:08:47] completed, um, including, discord and other analytic tools in place. So, uh, Andrew, what are [00:08:54] you seeing here? at this on magic Eden. You know, I do like, that. They say that the team is doxed. As we mentioned, that is privately doxed. Um, they see funds go to a third party escrow interval list. In one day. I do like, there is some utility here, but it looks like it actually, it's not it's not a pass or a ticket type of, uh, NFT we've seen a lot of other, kind of utility based these are actually. Let's see, is there fish, I guess, of a sort with all sorts of different, characteristics to them. So I do like the visual image to them. I think that helps bring collectors in, um, that don't necessarily look at it Um, it helps people maybe try to trade up for better you know, it depends how it's done, but I think that's generally, uh, generally adds more value in the interest to a project. um, and I, if they can really do all these things that are saying they can do, I think that. Really cool tool to check out and, um, yeah, I'm definitely worth or think it's worth giving it a shot at this, um, 1.9. Uh, so mid price. [00:10:03] And again, I've found that on launchpad, that's going to drop, it, says five 20. So on 5 28, that's when it's gonna drop. And you know, you can, depending on you're listening to it, go onto magic Eden. I'll say that I have liked, I've really liked magic. I think it's a superior platform and many ways in terms of the analytics at open. [00:10:26] See, um, it shows you like really good price, distributions and activities. And I you know, it's, it's a, it's a platform and the more I've [00:10:36] gotten comfortable with it, the better I feel like I can, you know, at least make bad decisions faster and more informed. [00:10:44] Andrew: More informed or at least they're more informed, but no more informed about where, uh, where it's going. [00:10:51] GEorge: Yeah. Gosh only knows. And I will say I'm just, I'm still floored by how you know, You know, whatever five, but you know, the trip in ape tribe, which is, I want to be clear, pure and utter knockoff don't pass go, don't collect $200 of like, Nutanix, you couldn't, you couldn't even try less to do This and somehow, you know, its I want to be very, Those types of things have got very, very short shelf life. So when I'm looking in here, how has involved? Because if a project like this can take off and larger projects are going to be able to take off out of the salon and network. That means if someone is actually doing something artistically unique utility value, there is actually a decent chance that it. [00:11:45] Attract the type of people that are like, oh, wait a minute. This thing is actually a good thing, because I think there's a whole separate ecosystem that are like people that are so lonely and you know, more and more big things I think will come out of Solano, whether or not we can hit them with a dart. I don't know. [00:12:02] Anyway, there's your heartache. Remember not financial advice. I'm talking about fish. They give you access to analytics. [00:12:11] Andrew: wrong with. [00:12:12] GEorge: And with that. Alrighty, bye. Lower sell high-ish. So you've heard this adage of in the market of equities buy low and sell high, my son. And you will, you will do just I can't tell you impossible it is. And, and you can actually look on the blockchain and it's hilarious [00:12:30] to be like, there's exactly like zero people that perfectly [00:12:33] hit a high and a low, and I see something I want, it's like one out of a hundred [00:12:36] thousand. [00:12:36] Get it right. Okay. What that really [00:12:38] means is we have to emotionally [00:12:41] and psychologically be fine with hitting the needs. So the price somewhere toward where it's going to be belling somewhere in that bottom 10 to 20%, and then somewhere toward the peak. I mean, recently both, you know, you and I, Andrew were like, we sold before the peak of a [00:12:58] certain project and we were, you know, oh, well still made something, but. [00:13:08] Andrew: Yeah, I think it's, I think that's important to think about because a lot of the time you'll see, you'll see people wait too long to sell [00:13:14] and you know, the idea is, well, ah, should've sold [00:13:16] when, you know, when it was at two and now it's back at 1.8. Yeah. But I think like the next time it gets to two that's [00:13:23] when I'll sell and you know, and then it gets to [00:13:25] one point. You know, it, it gets to [00:13:27] 1.9 or something, but it doesn't get to that too. And you know, all, I think it's [00:13:31] going to keep the learner, maybe getting it gets to you. You're like, no, no, no, [00:13:33] It's going to keep building this time. you've even realized you you've come to the realization that maybe there's no there's new, new catalyst coming. [00:13:40] That the, the news that already had already broken. And it seems like the market, you know, took it, took it fine, but maybe it wasn't as excited as, as you had hoped. And you keep hoping that it's gonna, that the next thing is going to come and. You know, I don't like to be in that position of just coping. I like to look, be able to look towards something and say, you know, I think that there's a reason that this is going to, to hold value or that, that, that value will be added And, you know, it's something that I try to keep in mind and, you know, certainly not saying that I am always able to sell it the right time, but I think you've got to realize. At times you got to look at, not getting back to You're probably not going to be the one to sell it at the exact tie. [00:14:22] And that if, if there's, you know, if it's volume and sales are waiting and there isn't something coming that maybe, you know, maybe it's worth selling at a, you know, not at the all time high, but still at a price that. It's going to give you a profit and that you can leave knowing that, you know, you did pretty well on it, even if it wasn't the absolute maximum that could have been away. [00:14:48] GEorge: Yeah, I think I've made the mistake of holding [00:14:49] too long [00:14:51] rather than, you know, selling too soon, more often and more damaging, I'd say, uh, over, you know, [00:15:00] Andrew: Yeah, I think that's selling too soon. [00:15:03] I don't know. I mean, there's definitely times where if I [00:15:04] sold too soon and I think [00:15:07] it's because when I think of too soon, it's because I sold too soon, almost in relation to the, the event that, that I thought was going to drive the price up a bit. Um, and I think if you do something, think something in going to add value. [00:15:21] Let that play out before. Before selling, um, let it play out a bit, but also realize that you can sell on the way up and that yes, there could be a higher price, but you've also got the sale when there's attention and volume on the project, because we know that volume can drive really quickly. And that piece there's nothing changed. [00:15:41] Even the perception of the project or the artist, maybe hasn't changed, but people have just they don't want to buy anything. Oh, [00:15:50] GEorge: Again, things sit on the shelf for 2, 3, 4 days. and you're being like, well, what happened? I thought the price was there. a floor price is there, but you also need the. absolutely. [00:16:01] So I'd say, you know how to be okay. Selling for a gain. I've heard the tactic of sort of when you buy a thing being all right, here's my threshold. I am fine with a three X or a five X on something. And if that happens, we're talking about affordable projects, so, you know, to be clear, you know, if you're getting in for like 0.1, like, let's just be honest. [00:16:20] If I think starts to go around 0.5, I'm going to get curious about selling. and you know, that's still booking, booking that uh, booking that when and you know, what comes up, comes back down. So you can always get back in. Usually when it comes on, comes on the backside, you know, what I was mentioning right. [00:16:39] I, um, I think I picked it where the current floor is, but I also got that drop. And so, you know, you're, you're saying like I get, there's a natural life cycle to these things and, and, and paying attention to where you where you are on that. But volume is a good indicator. Uh, what's going on and you, you want to ride that at any point because of the way that whales can kind of move into two different projects. And suddenly, you know, you had this floor price that was like pretty far above your price is pretty far above the floor. And all of a sudden [00:17:09] it's right there. Understanding what that [00:17:14] looks like and where you are [00:17:15] at those four distributions, those different plateaus. So are you between the plateaus or are you at plateau is another thing to consider when you [00:17:23] begin to sort of throw out the rod, cast it out there and wait for it. [00:17:27] Wait for a bite. Emotionally prepared. That's what I'd say. Be emotionally prepared. And one of the things I really do is I [00:17:43] stop looking at the fricking thing afterwards. That's my real trick. Just stop putting in the price. If you sold it, you done just don't do it. [00:17:52] Andrew: Yeah. You know, I think one thing to keep in mind and I said [00:17:54] this, I can't remember now, if I said this in this episode, I've said it in the past, when you're, when you want to watch some of these really closely, um, you know, there's times where I buy and I'm ready to hold that for a long term. You know, if it's, if I'm buying an artist piece that, you know, I, I really am not looking for a quick flip and there's other times where I, think you know, there is some momentum here and. that it can, you know, there's, potential for this to write up, you know, and sometime, You know, and I, I kinda know that this is one that isn't one that I necessarily think, or in confident will be there, you know, in a year that I didn't want to hold for six months. And, you know, in those situations, I, see it move really quickly. [00:18:33] I think that there's it's probably a decent time to look for a sale, have, if you did. You know, by two of them, um, definitely nice to be able to, to sell, um, at that point and realize that there's other people that hold are going to see that that price came up quickly and think, well, you know, maybe that and, and sell their piece. [00:18:55] And then it, you know, it does bring new listeners. You've when the fuller a floor price moves significantly. So if you are watching be potential to, you know, to maybe move in there before, uh, some other people too, and you know, take some profit and knowing  

 How are proceeds from NFT sales used? Most project creators take a large percentage for themselves NounsDAO pools funds together from sales for community directives   Affordable project: Across the Face by Osinachi NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: OpenSea launches Seaport ​​marketplace protocol allowing NFT bartering A Hacker Took Over NFT Artist Beeple's Twitter And Followers May Have Lost Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars  Andreessen Horowitz Announces New $4.5 Billion Crypto Fund - Decrypt Adam Neumann's blockchain-based redemption story now sponsored by a16z | TechCrunch   Rough Transcript: [00:00:00] George: Today on all affordable [00:00:41] NFTs. How [00:00:43] are the proceeds from NFT sales actually used money goes in. [00:00:49] Where does money go? We'll dive into Andrew, seeing some NFL? [00:00:55] Andrew: Yeah, I do have a kind of thing. News from See, I guess a couple of big things. one thing, they just changed the look of the site around quite a bit. So if you haven't been on there recently should go check that out. A few new things. Definitely looks a little bit different, looks a little lot more social on the um, on the, uh, profile page. But other big news was they released their sea port protocol. Um, couple of things. Parts of this one. it's going to allow people to trade NFTs rather for ease. You'll be able to say that maybe you want to trade a uh, Uh, I don't know, gold ape or something, and say that you'll, that you'll take specific, uh, Zuki pieces and that's one to bring up. [00:01:42] Now, try to go some high end. [00:01:43] ones, you know, is what I was trying to say there. without going into the projects where we actually talk about them. But anyway, you'll be able to trade them for specific traits. The other part is that this protocol will allow other people to use kind of the back has already built to run their own third-party marketplaces. Um, so this is, I think it's actually pretty big news here, uh, will allow a lot of people to, um, uh, sort of, you know, give it a shot of making their own allowing that. But I think in the end, that competition will make, you know, as we've talked about having more marketplaces pushes these forward and I think, uh, improves the product in the end. [00:02:21] So I'm excited to see what actually. It happens with the trading of NFPS. I know there have been out there. There's also been involving those are involved, but there's a lot of people that use those sites and, uh, in not great wage, which has made them a little hard for me to want to get into. [00:02:39] But I would be interested in trying out trades on the open seat platform. or on a trusted marketplace was using their Yeah, the open-source part gets me excited because it's additional functionality that. [00:02:54] George: could be brought to bear, I think, and even specific projects. and I've seen this probably [00:02:59] most popularly in me, bits where me bits actually had the ability to [00:03:04] post and trade and [00:03:05] interact, um, the uh, the actual uh, from a back and forth. [00:03:10] But this is across project, but also [00:03:12] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. We'll see what happens here. I think it's, it's, it's cool to see that that's coming from open. See, because it hasn't always been thought of as the most open platform. Um, but They are definitely, uh, opening up, uh, their backend here. And I'm excited Oh, I'm just excited to get farther and farther [00:03:29] George: away from anything resembling money and more of a horse based anything that brings us towards that is [00:03:35] Andrew: That's right. Trade your [00:03:36] George: horse. Sorry, digital horse based economy. [00:03:39] Andrew: Right. and of course we'll that, that will be the, the peg in the long run, right? Um, boy, my breath though. [00:03:47] Yeah. [00:03:50] All right, we've got some other news here. We've got uh, big Crip, or sorry, big a VC firm. They have launched any new $4.5 billion crypto fund that is billion with a B that is huge money. Um, you know, it's not necessarily a NFTE specific, but I am sure that some of this will flow towards NFTs. [00:04:11] Um, so I think it's, it's, it's, I mean, it's an absolutely huge number and good know. Remind people that there is a lot going into to crypto, even when the prices may be aren't going up. Uh, just keep that in mind. [00:04:26] George: I think things like this speak to total addressable market and be built right. That will get the next a hundred million people onto the platform because you're not getting that amount of money, unless you can answer the fundamental question of who is the total addressable market and how do you get them there. And I think there's going to be a lot of innovation brought to smarter UX and Wallace onboarding Fiat beyond just like send it to Coinbase and then send it around. and I think it's a, you know, a very positive sign. that you know, time spent right now on crypto and collecting NFTs right now is like, I'll just be honest. like, it's tough to watch number, go down every single day. It is a different place to see that, like, Hey, there's a huge increase coming in terms of building an investment, If we were seeing, if we were seeing right now diminishing amounts of money being be spent, guess this was just like that hype cycle that. that was one and done. I think what you're seeing is the builders and [00:05:34] VCs realize that this is just the beginning of [00:05:37] something. This is new tech yet to be applied rather than like, wasn't it weird when we all lost our minds in 2021 around NFTs? Yeah. Back to normal, [00:05:49] the amount of investment just in Q1, you know, dwarfs any other previous. [00:05:53] Uh, I mean, obviously Andreessen Horowitz pulling in Billy's is a weighed into that, but the amount of investment, the amount of dry [00:06:02] powder being put behind a new [00:06:04] projects that are rebuilt, uh, is significant. [00:06:07] Um, it'll be interesting to sort of play off of our, where, then move into the market? [00:06:14] Andrew: Yeah. Well, we do know, where at least some of a 16 Z has moved some of their money. Recently, they led a round or at least participated in around, uh, Adam Newman of rework new. Uh, chain flow, carbon and 70 million going into to see. So those two stories, both coming up this week. [00:06:34] Doesn't always, uh, doesn't make me super confident that, uh, we're one of these. I mean, sounds like, sounds like an, another layer one that's being run by Adam Newman. And, um, I don't know, I have a lot of questions. We've had a lot of Romans with alt layer ones as it is, and it doesn't exactly have a lot of, or give people a lot of confidence. [00:06:59] So we'll see where this goes. And I really hope that most of this 4.5 towards, uh, things that are a little bit more, um, uh, well tested in marketplace then than these new L ones. [00:07:11] George: So you're saying that flow carbons And GNT that token it's on [00:07:15] its way. It's not a, it's not like on an [00:07:18] Ethereum level. So, yikes one, however, just to say, I is looking to create carbon offset accreditation and tracking for it. I mean, you know, clean, the Dow has already done, I think, an amazing amount of work and sort of that sphere. [00:07:40] And, you know, they've had the successes that they've had. I will say to Adam Newman's credit, uh, that gentlemen can sell people on things, uh, quite well. And one thing I know you need to [00:07:52] sell folks. [00:07:54] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, this works out well and you know, it is what it uh, benefiting, benefiting our, uh, ecosystem as a whole, I guess. [00:08:08] George: Also, I will say [00:08:10] in terms of like, there are many risks [00:08:11] associated here, I'm actually oddly if the person's fairly wealthy and not likely to like a bunch of money out, you already did that with the last company he's done. Hopefully you won't get money out. Right. Cause history never repeats itself. [00:08:24] He's got enough dollars. So this can be like, you [00:08:30] Andrew: Maybe we should start looking at the new lunette shame. heard new loon is going to be so much better than last. The is for losers. [00:08:39] I think I'll stay away from that one. But I think this is interesting. There's some, you know, they're not the only name. There are some other big names on the list investors here. So it's one to keep an eye on anyway. [00:08:53] George: Yeah. Okay. A hacker tool hacker. [00:08:58] NFT artists, people's Twitter. [00:09:00] And you know, when people lost hundreds of thousands of dollars as to problem of crypto Twitter, and having [00:09:06] all of your wallets, [00:09:08] connected to the ability for attackers to after Twitter, um, they reportedly may have lost these investors, uh, $438,000 worth of cryptocurrencies. I mean, that's [00:09:20] Andrew: I mean, it's a relatively small one compared to all the other scams and hacks that we are at many of the other ones that we've talked about. But, uh, you know, just another one to another way or thinking to are I guess, you know, don't always even trust the links from, from the accounts that you do follow the authenticated accounts because you know, those can get hacked too. [00:09:40] And if it seems too good to be out of the blue or whatever, you know, Give it a second and slow down. Yeah, I think, you know, if you listen to [00:09:51] George: any of our stuff, it's, you know, trust, but [00:09:53] verify all these, [00:09:54] things. and I, I, I genuinely [00:09:57] think it's project owners to do a little bit of what [00:10:02] I said of white hat hacking and [00:10:05] trying to trick your own audience, just to [00:10:06] steal them against potential. And it doesn't make sense, don't do it because anything can we're talking about a lot of money now when certain projects get up there, but again, the onus is on the owner. [00:10:22] Andrew: All right. Well, why don't we move on to our affordable project? I actually have one for us this week that, uh, mentioned in the discord. there, you seen that. I mentioned I was minting this minted, a few of these, and this is a collection called across the face. by. [00:10:38] Uh, Nigerian NACI is an artist that I've been familiar with for a little over a year. Now I hold of his, but I was excited to see this collection come out. It's uh, on the async platform, which we've past. Um, this new async blueprints platform Uh, a bit of it's a degenerative art platform, it's not quite, it's not generative in the sense of gender of code building these pieces. [00:11:03] It's all pieces exist. Then they've run different variations come out. Um, so. They're all of them. It's a bit of a self portrait, I guess, of him in various stages with gait across the face. Um, there's a reference to a object actually on the face of each of the characters in the set. [00:11:24] Uh, it was a thousand pieces. and it did 4.1. Each floor is right? Um, I I really like this set. I like how it looks. It's very much, uh, very much in of these other I've seen. Um, and, I think it is, I think it's a great way to get new collectors involved in some work. [00:11:43] Um, as we've seen with some of these other blueprints, um, from Colby and the X coffee ones are now, certainly in, uh, those went up quite. Immediately, but even the Colby ones now I think are up over one E that piece. Um, and So I think this is a good one. If it's, uh, if, uh, you know, for a long-term hold, um, I think there's a good chance that it was a Nazi is still relatively, um, Uh, not well-known in the space and, and that a lot of people will come to know him. [00:12:14] He's been working, um, with blockchain art for a considerable amount of time now, I mean, over, you know, at least compared to most others over three years. Um, so I think that bodes very well for how he will age in time. people come to appreciate, uh, blockchain art specifically. [00:12:31] George: I like this too. it's a thousand items as you. And 334 owners. I like that sort of small batch art a rather than PFP, like here are like 10,000, because generated as many as you want it, but this is a very focused, smaller batch. And definitely says something I say as a, as a collection and the great time to sort of say, all right, You know, who is an artist is going to continue to build over time. And Uh, you know, as you mentioned, The art, the art is unique. it's not a derivative and it is in his style. I'll also say, cause I've been, you know, I've been in picking up individual artists in this way that I like the collection. It seems like the collection also carries cache because if it's like uh, buried in so rare somewhere in unique, obviously the artists but I'll just be honest. you need that secondary to be able to find it. And if you [00:13:31] can't find it, you're not going as many [00:13:33] competitive bids. The pieces [00:13:35] are just not going to move. So I like that this is a collaboration between the, the, [00:13:40] async blueprints and super rare in this case. [00:13:44] Super rare, so that it's potentially a larger [00:13:47] audience of this will be found in the future rather for esoteric people who know [00:13:52] how to like perfectly search that said, don't you think there's going to [00:13:55] be much smarter art platforms that, like Kool-Aid around artists rather [00:14:00] than just collections. Yeah, I can definitely see, you know, more artists specific. They, you know, maybe that's something even see spin up out of, You know, some sort of, uh, Open seat marketplace for specific artists pieces are collected in there or, you know, in a small number. I mean, I could see that being somewhat of a gallery style where you could select people to be in or select even different collections to be in a specific marketplace. [00:14:27] Andrew: Um, no, I do like that this, this is on super rare and async, and. It's interesting that You know, I don't, I'm not sure what the super rare part is actually adding to it at this point. You know, you have the knitting sink. Um, now the, the trading is primarily on open sea and super rare. Um, you know, you can view them on there. [00:14:50] So I'm curious to see where superhero. Goes with how they're expanding, trying to expand their platform. you know, at this point it. doesn't seem like there's much there other than you can view them on that platform. I, guess you tend to sell them, I believe, buy and sell them there, but it's not, it's certainly not where most of the trading's happening. [00:15:08] I haven't checked if there's there. has been any at this point. Um, I think that there's A potential for these to be used to build. You know, to build new pieces too. You know, we've with the with his blueprints piece, um, or he's doing that where You can put multiple pieces together to build a new one or build special additions. [00:15:27] So, um, it's, it's within the blueprint system. And I would, you know, I would like to see something like that maybe if, you know, come out of this at some point or I'd be interested to see it. I you know, I also love that the pieces as they are, but I could see that potentially being something that is in play down the road. [00:15:43] George: Yeah, full [00:15:44] disclosure. I uh, picked up one as well. As soon as I [00:15:46] saw that you, dropped that in the discard. And I was like, well, that's good enough for me. I'm going in? And [00:15:52] Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot of, lot of good collectors in there. A lot of other artists, uh, they're now Armin, I noticed, uh, um, Brian Brinkman, some other artists that. [00:16:02] have been around the space for a long time. You know, I think that it was the NACI has a lot of respect from, from well-known artists in the space. Ransom bits is in here. I see recently purchased a couple hours ago. [00:16:14] Yeah, I have, I picked up a couple on of drive. I like the idea of putting a few of these together and making a collection and I want to get one in each of the objects on the face. So yeah, I am, I'm a holder and [00:16:26] George: Oh, so you, so there's different objects in the trying to pull that, together. Do you think that's going to be worth something or you just like, from an art standpoint, [00:16:32] it's just school. [00:16:33] Andrew: I think it will look cool together. You know, I think. there is potential that maybe There's something like that having a full set of each of the objects will at least look cool and trying to put some variation in what the objects are and what they're wearing. you know, there's different things that. [00:16:47] Yeah, different hats. There's different, um, clothing. So there's a shirt and tie. There's a basketball Jersey. There's, you know, I dunno there's even more, um, more ways. There's four different backgrounds. I don't know if the yellow is pieces in the past that I've seen. [00:17:03] Um, but I think that, I don't know the backgrounds even add a lot to this there's I think. There's a lot of ways that people could end up putting collections together. And I think it would be, it'd be cool if there were a way to, to, to put these together in a way that, you know, builds a new piece or something, or take something out of this. [00:17:23] But, you know, I have no idea, something like that will ever happen. [00:17:26] George: So you're just planning, playing an app, but you're going and you go? along. I know you've been keeping the powder dry, So thank you for bringing this to us as a really interesting one. Okay. [00:17:37] Andrew: right. Well, why don't we move on to our theme? [00:17:41] George: So I think this is in particular to PFP projects larger 10,000 pieces that are put together [00:17:48] by, you know, a [00:17:50] developer group and agency. What have [00:17:52] you proceeds or a Dow certainly. Now [00:17:56] look, money is made. Where does that freaking money [00:17:59] go? Like hard and fast. It goes to a wallet. So whoever has the keys to those wallet [00:18:05] has that [00:18:05] money. [00:18:06] So technically you could just run away with. [00:18:10] So, how do you start [00:18:12] from there is like where, where does the money go and how can you tell where the [00:18:15] money might go? [00:18:18] Andrew: Yeah, I think. this is a good question because I mean, we've got a lot of projects that talk about building a community and they raise a of funds and it's not always apparent. How much, or, You know, at all, will be spent to build that community. And we've certainly seen a lot of rogue projects where, you know, someone really just takes, it, takes The, ease, shuts it down. [00:18:37] We've also seen a lot where it's completely normal And open that the creators are taking a large percentage of the mint proceeded. Right away for themselves as if that's, you know, the the payment. And, you know, it's a concern that we've talked about here before, when you're getting paid a lot upfront, it really disincentivizes you to continue working and to build towards something bigger, you know? [00:19:03] And I think Uh, you know, we've seen something different in a project that George brought recently in the little nouns. Um, the, now this is? a project put out by nouns Dow, and both announced out with day, but that's all pooled into a joint, uh, joint account where all this ease is pulled up. [00:19:23] And then the doubt owners, any of the NFT owners can decide how to use that. Uh, one of the projects they spun up recently, he is this little announce, the Middleton hounds Dow, little now project that is meeting one every 15 minutes. And now they're raising funds from this. Now this is also going into a pool. [00:19:39] So this is really interesting. I think in that, you know, where this is going, it's more of buying into a collective, um, collective that. [00:19:47] gets to decide then how to use these funds. Do we know where it is? You can see it. And everybody gets a say in how those are you. [00:19:57] George: That's totally true. And that, that problem of taking that lump sum up front, and like, what incentivizes you as that continued percent of sales. Right? So that's the other side of like, where does it youth go So you have these two, you have one big moment of mint And ideally human doubt and all of those proceeds kind of roll into the bank. And then how does the, the transactions daily so you can get, I think it's max, what can you take up to 10% is what is the maximum limit on. What you can designate open, see, to give you as a percentage of a cut of any future transaction, or is it higher than that? Somewhere in there. [00:20:35] Andrew: I'm not sure, actually, it's probably around that. [00:20:38] George: So you have those two moments, uh, money up front, which is like, you know, that's, that's the big nut. And then ongoing, I see it more common saying, and then every future sale, half of it will go to charity or half of it will go to that or we'll do these other things. And that. presupposes that people are that they're going to be transactions, right? [00:20:56] Cause if there's no transactions, There's, there's no money in the door. And I think that has been one of the issues that we have seen with the long-term value of access, tokens, tokens that give access to analytics platforms you have a development team, developing things. and they're, you know, they have an update next week in one month and in two months, but the big amount of that came in was. [00:21:21] When people initially bought that. So there's this problem of you know, follow the, money on how that will sustain into a developer over time. If those are not changing hands, because people are just using the tool. There's, there's a question mark there. I see This comes back to also just frankly trust. [00:21:40] And what you're doing is saying does this person plan to be with the project or even if they do, and maybe they don't. And they're like, look, it's very clear. Uh, it was a Nazi it's like taking this money and like, you get art, I have money. Future utility is on you. it's right there. [00:21:56] It's right there in the in the logic. Um, but I think for a lot. of PFP projects, And the, I get a little suspicious. I get a little nervous when I see large percentages being tagged into future transactions without like, the utility. Like, if you're going to say, all right, you have open seat, 2.5% of the cup. [00:22:17] If you're gonna be taking 10%, the big question is how has that money that you get going to increase the utility marketability secondary value. Of the project or is it just going to line your pockets in perpetuity? That's a trigger to me and be like, this is, this is a cash grab and maybe it's done under the veil of all. [00:22:40] I don't want people to be Transferring around, so I'm setting it high to make sure it doesn't move a lot. And you're like, Hmm. I, uh, I'm, I'm concerned when that, sort of thing happens. Also. Funny thing about that percentage is that even though it's [00:22:53] like, quote unquote written to the contract, it doesn't. It's more of a guideline than a rule, like platforms don't have to follow that [00:23:02] percentage allocation. Actually, even though it's in the [00:23:04] contract open, see is honorable. That's used to do it, but there are [00:23:07] platforms that you can go to that don't honor the creator [00:23:12] fee. I think it's called in contract. they just don't write it into the, the signing of that contract from that piece. Transferring another question for me that comes with. [00:23:22] What happens if I trade that board aid for some, you know, other, other ape or [00:23:28] other things, how does that, how does that happen in my paying it fee? Am I not? [00:23:34] Andrew: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think that there's, that's something that's going to come up obviously as this, uh, new trading I think as A trading platform comes to be, you know, we'll have to have that, that do you, I dunno how to creators get paid, you know, but I think in general, maybe we're seeing sort of a shift in how people want to. [00:23:53] Uh, what the east to be or where they want it to go. When it goes into a wallet that is controlled by, you know, people from the community, you know, I assume it's a multisignature wallet. I haven't looked, um, particularly much into the mound stout model, but I think people there's been a lot of tension on announced out for a reason recently. [00:24:14] Um, and I part of it is that that little nouns, uh, project meeting, but people also coming to a realization that, um, you know, maybe that. A, uh, a model that some other projects should be I'll say it's really been fun inside of the little nouns, like part of that they're trying to figure out how to spend the money. and there's like, I dunno, like 30, 40 eats we're talking about and they continue, to to generate because as an ongoing basis, every 10th now, Goes to the Dow And every like 11th goes to the nouns proper now, and there's talks about like, oh, maybe we should buy a noun. [00:24:48] George: So we get like rights. Maybe we should do marketing. Maybe we should do more, uh, donations to charity. Like there are actual considerations of how you guide these funds and it is a you know, it's doing well right now. Um, And you know, might be hopefully not my pick of the year, but it is. was a good pick. [00:25:11] Uh, [00:25:11] Andrew: Yeah. I noticed [00:25:12] George: also have though, related to this like how the proceeds are used and sort of once the proceeds are done, that initial sale is done. It's on the the interest in passion And reputation of the creators to continue, right. That there has to be extra energy. uh, you know, shout out to since you brought us that one, that was, that was a very good one. And they had this amazing Twitter thread where they just talk about how they launched in July of 2021, some fanfare, they just had general PFP And they just, it was collapsing. They just, utility. They're trying to be comics. and they're like, look, we're financial folks Like we know markets like. it And instead of watching yet a new thing, they brought this thing sheer will and reputation, and started churning out actual daily posts that are, very helpful and interesting hot takes on the [00:26:05] market. And also now just delivered, uh, the, the [00:26:09] wreck, uh, the Rex guy [00:26:10] drop. [00:26:11] And so, you know, that's an example of like, they weren't getting paid at And so you have to think about that. I think with, you know, how these [00:26:17] proceeds are you There is extrinsic intrinsic here. [00:26:20] And once the dollars, sorry, sorry. Dirty Fiat. Once the Eve dries up the passion has to kick in And I've been [00:26:30] really impressed with how those folks have Have turned it around over there. [00:26:37] Andrew: Yeah, I think that's a good point. you know, I think we've, we've seen some other projects with Freemans recently, and we've seen these in the past and You know, those are, that's another one where. Yeah, I guess you are really want to continue trading. If you're really looking at only getting paid based on, uh, based on a percent of transactions. [00:26:55] So I think that's a good thing, you know, we've seen, we've seen a lot of inferences. Really get up there. And I think any, any mint that is especially high is, you know, it doesn't mean don't do it, but it does mean, you know, they earned the right to do that? Have they earned the trust and will they, you know, you know, I don't know, will they continue to work at it to, to add value? [00:27:23] You know, it's something that, you know, you've really got to keep in when it's a high, mid price. [00:27:27] George: I'm afraid of making any absolute statements, but right now you can hold me to this one. I'm really going to stay away from Hyman prices. I'll just be honest. [00:27:36] If, if, [00:27:37] X copy can't hold value for a [00:27:40] mint price. The arguably well-known names in the game, then I'm, I'm really, I'm not going to be traveling too far over 0.2 weeks for mint. And especially in that, market right now, like in hotter markets. Sure. but until the next moon, birds comes along And we see it coming and we're like, very clearly you just try to do your best to get in that white list And you know, good luck. [00:28:04] But otherwise it's It's a very sharp [00:28:08] market out there. I'll say. [00:28:10] Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm definitely watching my trades a lot closer right now because, uh, I've noticed things quickly if, if they don't have much history or even if they do, in some case, this is. [00:28:22] George: Yeah. Quick note, a little alpha here for the DGN, since they did the [00:28:27] a D E G E N Z. Uh, they did do that drop in snapshot [00:28:32] already. The price tends to drop after that, but I don't [00:28:35] think the value of this community is going away. And it might be an interesting [00:28:39] time to just keep your eye on that floor. it's currently hovering And it may drop a little bit more [00:28:45] Andrew: looking at. It was up to almost half anyth by the way. So it's fluctuating, definitely worth keeping an eye on. [00:28:52] George: the problem is I don't want to sell mine. I need This is the whole problem. Like, oh shoot. I should've got two. and it's the same thing with low now. And I'm like, I can't sell it. Oh no. And now I have this like heartbreak of watching this thing right

About AndrewI create free cloud certification courses and somehow still make money.Links: ExamPro Training, Inc.: https://www.exampro.co/ PolyWork: https://www.polywork.com/andrewbrown LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-wc-brown Twitter: https://twitter.com/andrewbrown TranscriptAndrew: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief cloud economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is… well, he's challenging to describe. He's the co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro Training, Inc. but everyone knows him better as Andrew Brown because he does so many different things in the AWS ecosystem that it's sometimes challenging—at least for me—to wind up keeping track of them all. Andrew, thanks for joining.Andrew: Hey, thanks for having me on the show, Corey.Corey: How do I even begin describing you? You're an AWS Community Hero and have been for almost two years, I believe; you've done a whole bunch of work as far as training videos; you're, I think, responsible for #100daysofcloud; you recently started showing up on my TikTok feed because I'm pretending that I am 20 years younger than I am and hanging out on TikTok with the kids, and now I feel extremely old. And obviously, you're popping up an awful lot of places.Andrew: Oh, yeah. A few other places like PolyWork, which is an alternative to LinkedIn, so that's a space that I'm starting to build up on there as well. Active in Discord, Slack channels. I'm just kind of everywhere. There's some kind of internet obsession here. My wife gets really mad and says, “Hey, maybe tone down the social media.” But I really enjoy it. So.Corey: You're one of those folks where I have this challenge of I wind up having a bunch of different AWS community Slacks and cloud community, Slacks and Discords and the past, and we DM on Twitter sometimes. And I'm constantly trying to figure out where was that conversational thread that I had with you? And tracking it down is an increasingly large search problem. I really wish that—forget the unified messaging platform. I want a unified search platform for all the different messaging channels that I'm using to talk to people.Andrew: Yeah, it's very hard to keep up with all the channels for myself there. But somehow I do seem to manage it, but just with a bit less sleep than most others.Corey: Oh, yeah. It's like trying to figure out, like, “All right, he said something really useful. What was that? Was that a Twitter DM? Was it on that Slack channel? Was it that Discord? No, it was on that brick that he threw through my window with a note tied to it. There we go.”That's always the baseline stuff of figuring out where things are. So, as I mentioned in the beginning, you are the co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro, which is interesting because unlike most of the community stuff that you do and are known for, you don't generally talk about that an awful lot. What's the deal there?Andrew: Yeah, I think a lot of people give me a hard time because they say, Andrew, you should really be promoting yourself more and trying to make more sales, but that's not why I'm out here doing what I'm doing. Of course, I do have a for-profit business called ExamPro, where we create cloud certification study courses for things like AWS, Azure, GCP, Terraform, Kubernetes, but you know, that money just goes to fuel what I really want to do, is just to do community activities to help people change their lives. And I just decided to do that via cloud because that's my domain expertise. At least that's what I say because I've learned up on in the last four or five years. I'm hoping that there's some kind of impact I can make doing that.Corey: I take a somewhat similar approach. I mean, at The Duckbill Group, we fixed the horrifying AWS bill, but I've always found that's not generally a problem that people tend to advertise having. On Twitter, like, “Oh, man, my AWS bill is killing me this month. I've got to do something about it,” and you check where they work, and it's like a Fortune 50. It's, yeah, that moves markets and no one talks about that.So, my approach was always, be out there, be present in the community, talk about this stuff, and the people who genuinely have billing problems will eventually find their way to me. That was always my approach because turning everything I do into a sales pitch doesn't work. It just erodes confidence, it reminds people of the used mattress salesman, and I just don't want to be that person in that community. My approach has always been if I can help someone with a 15-minute call or whatnot, yeah, let's jump on a phone call. I'm not interested in nickel-and-diming folks.Andrew: Yeah. I think that if you're out there doing a lot of hard work, and a lot of it, it becomes undeniable the value you're putting out there, and then people just will want to give you money, right? And for me, I just feel really bad about taking anybody's money, and so even when there's some kind of benefit—like my courses, I could charge for access for them, but I always feel I have to give something in terms of taking somebody's money, but I would never ask anyone to give me their money. So, it's bizarre. [laugh] so.Corey: I had a whole bunch of people a year or so after I started asking, like, “I really find your content helpful. Can I buy you a cup of coffee or something?” And it's, I don't know how to charge people a dollar figure that doesn't have a comma in it because it's easy for me to ask a company for money; that is the currency of effort, work, et cetera, that companies are accustomed to. People view money very differently, and if I ask you personally for money versus your company for money, it's a very different flow. So, my solution to it was to build the annual charity t-shirt drive, where it's, great, spend 35 bucks or whatever on a snarky t-shirt once a year for ten days and all proceeds go to benefit a nonprofit that is, sort of, assuaged that.But one of my business philosophies has always been, “Work for free before you work for cheap.” And dealing with individuals and whatnot, I do not charge them for things. It's, “Oh, can you—I need some advice in my career. Can I pay you to give me some advice?” “No, but you can jump on a Zoom call with me.” Please, the reason I exist at all is because people who didn't have any reason to did me favors, once upon a time, and I feel obligated to pay that forward.Andrew: And I appreciate, you know, there are people out there that you know, do need to charge for their time. Like—Corey: Oh. Oh, yes.Andrew: —I won't judge anybody that wants to. But you know, for me, it's just I can't do it because of the way I was raised. Like, my grandfather was very involved in the community. Like, he was recognized by the city for all of his volunteer work, and doing volunteer work was, like, mandatory for me as a kid. Like, every weekend, and so for me, it's just like, I can't imagine trying to take people's money.Which is not a great thing, but it turns out that the community is very supportive, and they will come beat you down with a stick, to give you money to make sure you keep doing what you're doing. But you know, I could be making lots of money, but it's just not my priority, so I've avoided any kind of funding so like, you know, I don't become a money-driven company, and I will see how long that lasts, but hopefully, a lot longer.Corey: I wish you well. And again, you're right; no shade to anyone who winds up charging for their time to individuals. I get it. I just always had challenges with it, so I decided not to do it. The only time I find myself begrudging people who do that are someone who picked something up six months ago and decided, oh, I'm going to build some video course on how to do this thing. The end. And charge a bunch of money for it and put myself out as an expert in that space.And you look at what the content they're putting out is, and one, it's inaccurate, which just drives me up a wall, and two, there's a lack of awareness that teaching is its own skill. In some areas, I know how to teach certain things, and in other areas, I'm a complete disaster at it. Public speaking is a great example. A lot of what I do on the public speaking stage is something that comes to me somewhat naturally. So, can you teach me to be a good public speaker? Not really, it's like, well, you gave that talk and it was bad. Could you try giving it only make it good? Like, that is not a helpful coaching statement, so I stay out of that mess.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, it's really challenging to know, if you feel like you're authority enough to put something out there. And there's been a few courses where I didn't feel like I was the most knowledgeable, but I produced those courses, and they had done extremely well. But as I was going through the course, I was just like, “Yeah, I don't know how any this stuff works, but this is my best guess translating from here.” And so you know, at least for my content, people have seen me as, like, the lens of AWS on top of other platforms, right? So, I might not know—I'm not an expert in Azure, but I've made a lot of Azure content, and I just translate that over and I talk about the frustrations around, like, using scale sets compared to AWS auto-scaling groups, and that seems to really help people get through the motions of it.I know if I pass, at least they'll pass, but by no means do I ever feel like an expert. Like, right now I'm doing, like, Kubernetes. Like, I have no idea how I'm doing it, but I have, like, help with three other people. And so I'll just be honest about it and say, “Hey, yeah, I'm learning this as well, but at least I know I passed, so you know, you can pass, too.” Whatever that's worth.Corey: Oh, yeah. Back when I was starting out, I felt like a bit of a fraud because I didn't know everything about the AWS billing system and how it worked and all the different things people can do with it, and things they can ask. And now, five years later, when the industry basically acknowledges I'm an expert, I feel like a fraud because I couldn't possibly understand everything about the AWS billing system and how it works. It's one of those things where the more you learn, the more you realize that there is yet to learn. I'm better equipped these days to find the answers to the things I need to know, but I'm still learning things every day. If I ever get to a point of complete and total understanding of a given topic, I'm wrong. You can always go deeper.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, by no means am I even an expert in AWS, though people seem to think that I am just because I have a lot of confidence in there and I produce a lot of content. But that's a lot different from making a course than implementing stuff. And I do implement stuff, but you know, it's just at the scale that I'm doing that. So, just food for thought for people there.Corey: Oh, yeah. Whatever, I implement something. It's great. In my previous engineering life, I would work on large-scale systems, so I know how a thing that works in your test environment is going to blow up in a production scale environment. And I bring those lessons, written on my bones the painful way, through outages, to the way that I build things now.But the stuff that I'm building is mostly to keep my head in the game, as opposed to solving an explicit business need. Could I theoretically build a podcast transcription system on top of Transcribe or something like that for these episodes? Yeah. But I've been paying a person to do this for many years to do it themselves; they know the terms of art, they know how this stuff works, and they're building a glossary as they go, and understanding the nuances of what I say and how I say it. And that is the better business outcome; that's the answer. And if it's production facing, I probably shouldn't be tinkering with it too much, just based upon where the—I don't want to be the bottleneck for the business functioning.Andrew: I've been spending so much time doing the same thing over and over again, but for different cloud providers, and the more I do, the less I want to go deep on these things because I just feel like I'm dumping all this information I'm going to forget, and that I have those broad strokes, and when I need to go deep dive, I have that confidence. So, I'd really prefer people were to build up confidence in saying, “Yes, I think I can do this.” As opposed to being like, “Oh, I have proof that I know every single feature in AWS Systems Manager.” Just because, like, our platform, ExamPro, like, I built it with my co-founder, and it's a quite a system. And so I'm going well, that's all I need to know.And I talk to other CTOs, and there's only so much you need to know. And so I don't know if there's, like, a shift between—or difference between, like, application development where, let's say you're doing React and using Vercel and stuff like that, where you have to have super deep knowledge for that technical stack, whereas cloud is so broad or diverse that maybe just having confidence and hypothesizing the work that you can do and seeing what the outcome is a bit different, right? Not having to prove one hundred percent that you know it inside and out on day one, but have the confidence.Corey: And there's a lot of validity to that and a lot of value to it. It's the magic word I always found in interviewing, on both sides of the interview table, has always been someone who's unsure about something start with, “I'm not sure, but if I had to guess,” and then say whatever it is you were going to say. Because if you get it right, wow, you're really good at figuring this out, and your understanding is pretty decent. If you're wrong, well, you've shown them how you think but you've also called them out because you're allowed to be wrong; you're not allowed to be authoritatively wrong. Because once that happens, I can't trust anything you say.Andrew: Yeah. In terms of, like, how do cloud certifications help you for your career path? I mean, I find that they're really well structured, and they give you a goal to work towards. So, like, passing that exam is your motivation to make sure that you complete it. Do employers care? It depends. I would say mostly no. I mean, for me, like, when I'm hiring, I actually do care about certifications because we make certification courses but—Corey: In your case, you're a very specific expression of this that is not typical.Andrew: Yeah. And there are some, like, cases where, like, if you work for a larger cloud consultancy, you're expected to have a professional certification so that customers feel secure in your ability to execute. But it's not like they were trying to hire you with that requirement, right? And so I hope that people realize that and that they look at showing that practical skills, by building up cloud projects. And so that's usually a strong pairing I'll have, which is like, “Great. Get the certifications to help you just have a structured journey, and then do a Cloud project to prove that you can do what you say you can do.”Corey: One area where I've seen certifications act as an interesting proxy for knowledge is when you have a company that has 5000 folks who work in IT in varying ways, and, “All right. We're doing a big old cloud migration.” The certification program, in many respects, seems to act as a bit of a proxy for gauging where people are on upskilling, how much they have to learn, where they are in that journey. And at that scale, it begins to make some sense to me. Where do you stand on that?Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's hard because it really depends on how those paths are built. So, when you look at the AWS certification roadmap, they have the Certified Cloud Practitioner, they have three associates, two professionals, and a bunch of specialties. And I think that you might think, “Well, oh, solutions architect must be very popular.” But I think that's because AWS decided to make the most popular, the most generic one called that, and so you might think that's what's most popular.But what they probably should have done is renamed that Solution Architect to be a Cloud Engineer because very few people become Solutions Architect. Like that's more… if there's Junior Solutions Architect, I don't know where they are, but Solutions Architect is more of, like, a senior role where you have strong communications, pre-sales, obviously, the role is going to vary based on what companies decide a Solution Architect is—Corey: Oh, absolutely take a solutions architect, give him a crash course in finance, and we call them a cloud economist.Andrew: Sure. You just add modifiers there, and they're something else. And so I really think that they should have named that one as the cloud engineer, and they should have extracted it out as its own tier. So, you'd have the Fundamental, the Certified Cloud Practitioner, then the Cloud Engineer, and then you could say, “Look, now you could do developer or the sysops.” And so you're creating this path where you have a better trajectory to see where people really want to go.But the problem is, a lot of people come in and they just do the solutions architect, and then they don't even touch the other two because they say, well, I got an associate, so I'll move on the next one. So, I think there's some structuring there that comes into play. You look at Azure, they've really, really caught up to AWS, and may I might even say surpass them in terms of the quality and the way they market them and how they construct their certifications. There's things I don't like about them, but they have, like, all these fundamental certifications. Like, you have Azure Fundamentals, Data Fundamentals, AI Fundamentals, there's a Security Fundamentals.And to me, that's a lot more valuable than going over to an associate. And so I did all those, and you know, I still think, like, should I go translate those over for AWS because you have to wait for a specialty before you pick up security. And they say, like, it's intertwined with all the certifications, but, really isn't. Like—and I feel like that would be a lot better for AWS. But that's just my personal opinion. So.Corey: My experience with AWS certifications has been somewhat minimal. I got the Cloud Practitioner a few years ago, under the working theory of I wanted to get into the certified lounge at some of the events because sometimes I needed to charge things and grab a cup of coffee. I viewed it as a lounge pass with a really strange entrance questionnaire. And in my case, yeah, I passed it relatively easily; if not, I would have some questions about how much I actually know about these things. As I recall, I got one question wrong because I was honest, instead of going by the book answer for, “How long does it take to restore an RDS database from a snapshot?”I've had some edge cases there that give the wrong answer, except that's what happened. And then I wound up having that expire and lapse. And okay, now I'll do it—it was in beta at the time, but I got the sysops associate cert to go with it. And that had a whole bunch of trivia thrown into it, like, “Which of these is the proper syntax for this thing?” And that's the kind of question that's always bothered me because when I'm trying to figure things like that out, I have entire internet at my fingertips. Understanding the exact syntax, or command-line option, or flag that needs to do a thing is a five-second Google search away in most cases. But measuring for people's ability to memorize and retain that has always struck me as a relatively poor proxy for knowledge.Andrew: It's hard across the board. Like Azure, AWS, GCP, they all have different approaches—like, Terraform, all of them, they're all different. And you know, when you go to interview process, you have to kind of extract where the value is. And I would think that the majority of the industry, you know, don't have best practices when hiring, there's, like, a superficial—AWS is like, “Oh, if you do well, in STAR program format, you must speak a communicator.” Like, well, I'm dyslexic, so that stuff is not easy for me, and I will never do well in that.So like, a lot of companies hinge on those kinds of components. And I mean, I'm sure it doesn't matter; if you have a certain scale, you're going to have attrition. There's no perfect system. But when you look at these certifications, and you say, “Well, how much do they match up with the job?” Well, they don't, right? It's just Jeopardy.But you know, I still think there's value for yourself in terms of being able to internalize it. I still think that does prove that you have done something. But taking the AWS certification is not the same as taking Andrew Brown's course. So, like, my certified cloud practitioner was built after I did GCP, Oracle Cloud, Azure Fundamentals, a bunch of other Azure fundamental certifications, cloud-native stuff, and then I brought it over because was missing, right? So like, if you went through my course, and that I had a qualifier, then I could attest to say, like, you are of this skill level, right?But it really depends on what that testament is and whether somebody even cares about what my opinion of, like, your skillset is. But I can't imagine like, when you have a security incident, there's going to be a pop-up that shows you multiple-choice answer to remediate the security incident. Now, we might get there at some point, right, with all the cloud automation, but we're not there yet.Corey: It's been sort of thing we've been chasing and never quite get there. I wish. I hope I live to see it truly I do. My belief is also that the value of a certification changes depending upon what career stage someone is at. Regardless of what level you are at, a hiring manager or a company is looking for more or less a piece of paper that attests that they're to solve the problem that they are hiring to solve.And entry-level, that is often a degree or a certification or something like that in the space that shows you have at least the baseline fundamentals slash know how to learn things. After a few years, I feel like that starts to shift into okay, you've worked in various places solving similar problems on your resume that the type that we have—because the most valuable thing you can hear when you ask someone, “How would we solve this problem?” Is, “Well, the last time I solved it, here's what we learned.” Great. That's experience. There's no compression algorithm for experience? Yes, there is: Hiring people with experience.Then, at some level, you wind up at the very far side of people who are late-career in many cases where the piece of paper that shows that they know what they're doing is have you tried googling their name and looking at the Wikipedia article that spits out, how they built fundamental parts of a system like that. I think that certifications are one of those things that bias for early-career folks. And of course, partners when there are other business reasons to get it. But as people grow in seniority, I feel like the need for those begins to fall off. Do you agree? Disagree? You're much closer to this industry in that aspect of it than I am.Andrew: The more senior you are, and if you have big names under your resume there, no one's going to care if you have certification, right? When I was looking to switch careers—I used to have a consultancy, and I was just tired of building another failed startup for somebody that was willing to pay me. And I'm like—I was not very nice about it. I was like, “Your startup's not going to work out. You really shouldn't be building this.” And they still give me the money and it would fail, and I'd move on to the next one. It was very frustrating.So, closed up shop on that. And I said, “Okay, I got to reenter the market.” I don't have a computer science degree, I don't have big names on my resume, and Toronto is a very competitive market. And so I was feeling friction because people were not valuing my projects. I had, like, full-stack projects, I would show them.And they said, “No, no. Just do these, like, CompSci algorithms and stuff like that.” And so I went, “Okay, well, I really don't want to be doing that. I don't want to spend all my time learning algorithms just so I can get a job to prove that I already have the knowledge I have.” And so I saw a big opportunity in cloud, and I thought certifications would be the proof to say, “I can do these things.”And when I actually ended up going for the interviews, I didn't even have certifications and I was getting those opportunities because the certifications helped me prove it, but nobody cared about the certifications, even then, and that was, like, 2017. But not to say, like, they didn't help me, but it wasn't the fact that people went, “Oh, you have a certification. We'll get you this job.”Corey: Yeah. When I'm talking to consulting clients, I've never once been asked, “Well, do you have the certifications?” Or, “Are you an AWS partner?” In my case, no, neither of those things. The reason that we know what we're doing is because we've done this before. It's the expertise approach.I question whether that would still be true if we were saying, “Oh, yeah, and we're going to drop a dozen engineers on who are going to build things out of your environment.” “Well, are they certified?” is a logical question to ask when you're bringing in an external service provider? Or is this just a bunch of people you found somewhere on Upwork or whatnot, and you're throwing them at it with no quality control? Like, what is the baseline level experience? That's a fair question. People are putting big levels of trust when they bring people in.Andrew: I mean, I could see that as a factor of some clients caring, just because like, when I used to work in startups, I knew customers where it's like their second startup, and they're flush with a lot of money, and they're deciding who they want to partner with, and they're literally looking at what level of SSL certificate they purchased, right? Like now, obviously, they're all free and they're very easy to get to get; there was one point where you had different tiers—as if you would know—and they would look and they would say—Corey: Extended validation certs attend your browser bar green. Remember those?Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just like that, and they're like, “We should partner with them because they were able to afford that and we know, like…” whatever, whatever, right? So, you know, there is that kind of thought process for people at an executive level. I'm not saying it's widespread, but I've seen it.When you talk to people that are in cloud consultancy, like solutions architects, they always tell me they're driven to go get those professional certifications [unintelligible 00:22:19] their customers matter. I don't know if the customers care or not, but they seem to think so. So, I don't know if it's just more driven by those people because it's an expectation because everyone else has it, or it's like a package of things, like, you know, like the green bar in the certifications, SOC 2 compliance, things like that, that kind of wrap it up and say, “Okay, as a package, this looks really good.” So, more of an expectation, but not necessarily matters, it's just superficial; I'm not sure.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: You've been building out certifications for multiple cloud providers, so I'm curious to get your take on something that Forrest Brazeal, who's now head of content over at Google Cloud, has been talking about lately, the idea that as an engineer is advised to learn more than one cloud provider; even if you have one as a primary, learning how another one works makes you a better engineer. Now, setting aside entirely the idea that well, yeah, if I worked at Google, I probably be saying something fairly similar.Andrew: Yeah.Corey: Do you think there's validity to the idea that most people should be broad across multiple providers, or do you think specialization on one is the right path?Andrew: Sure. Just to contextualize for our listeners, Google Cloud is highly, highly promoting multi-cloud workloads, and one of their flagship products is—well, they say it's a flagship product—is Anthos. And they put a lot of money—I don't know that was subsidized, but they put a lot of money in it because they really want to push multi-cloud, right? And so when we say Forrest works in Google Cloud, it should be no surprise that he's promoting it.But I don't work for Google, and I can tell you, like, learning multi-cloud is, like, way more valuable than just staying in one vertical. It just opened my eyes. When I went from AWS to Azure, it was just like, “Oh, I'm missing out on so much in the industry.” And it really just made me such a more well-rounded person. And I went over to Google Cloud, and it was just like… because you're learning the same thing in different variations, and then you're also poly-filling for things that you will never touch.Or like, I shouldn't say you never touch, but you would never touch if you just stayed in that vertical when you're learning. So, in the industry, Azure Active Directory is, like, widespread, but if you just stayed in your little AWS box, you're not going to notice it on that learning path, right? And so a lot of times, I tell people, “Go get your CLF-C01 and then go get your AZ-900 or AZ-104.” Again, I don't care if people go and sit the exams. I want them to go learn the content because it is a large eye-opener.A lot of people are against multi-cloud from a learning perspective because say, it's too much to learn all at the same time. But a lot of people I don't think have actually gone across the cloud, right? So, they're sitting from their chair, only staying in one vertical saying, “Well, you can't learn them all at the same time.” And I'm going, “I see a way that you could teach them all at the same time.” And I might be the first person that will do it.Corey: And the principles do convey as well. It's, “Oh, well I know how SNS works on AWS, so I would never be able to understand how Google Pub/Sub works.” Those are functionally identical; I don't know that is actually true. It's just different to interface points and different guarantees, but fine. You at least understand the part that it plays.I've built things out on Google Cloud somewhat recently, and for me, every time I do, it's a refreshing eye-opener to oh, this is what developer experience in the cloud could be. And for a lot of customers, it is. But staying too far within the bounds of one ecosystem does lend itself to a loss of perspective, if you're not careful. I agree with that.Andrew: Yeah. Well, I mean, just the paint more of a picture of differences, like, Google Cloud has a lot about digital transformation. They just updated their—I'm not happy that they changed it, but I'm fine that they did that, but they updated their Google Digital Cloud Leader Exam Guide this month, and it like is one hundred percent all about digital transformation. So, they love talking about digital transformation, and those kind of concepts there. They are really good at defining migration strategies, like, at a high level.Over to Azure, they have their own cloud adoption framework, and it's so detailed, in terms of, like, execution, where you go over to AWS and they have, like, the worst cloud adoption framework. It's just the laziest thing I've ever seen produced in my life compared to out of all the providers in that space. I didn't know about zero-trust model until I start using Azure because Azure has Active Directory, and you can do risk-based policy procedures over there. So, you know, like, if you don't go over to these places, you're not going to get covered other places, so you're just going to be missing information till you get the job and, you know, that job has that information requiring you to know it.Corey: I would say that for someone early career—and I don't know where this falls on the list of career advice ranging from, “That is genius,” to, “Okay, Boomer,” but I would argue that figuring out what companies in your geographic area, or the companies that you have connections with what they're using for a cloud provider, I would bias for learning one enough to get hired there and from there, letting what you learn next be dictated by the environment you find yourself in. Because especially larger companies, there's always something that lives in a different provider. My default worst practice is multi-cloud. And I don't say that because multi-cloud doesn't exist, and I'm not saying it because it's a bad idea, but this idea of one workload—to me—that runs across multiple providers is generally a challenge. What I see a lot more, done intelligently, is, “Okay, we're going to use this provider for some things, this other provider for other things, and this third provider for yet more things.” And every company does that.If not, there's something very strange going on. Even Amazon uses—if not Office 365, at least exchange to run their email systems instead of Amazon WorkMail because—Andrew: Yeah.Corey: Let's be serious. That tells me a lot. But I don't generally find myself in a scenario where I want to build this application that is anything more than Hello World, where I want it to run seamlessly and flawlessly across two different cloud providers. That's an awful lot of work that I struggle to identify significant value for most workloads.Andrew: I don't want to think about securing, like, multiple workloads, and that's I think a lot of friction for a lot of companies are ingress-egress costs, which I'm sure you might have some knowledge on there about the ingress-egress costs across providers.Corey: Oh, a little bit, yeah.Andrew: A little bit, probably.Corey: Oh, throwing data between clouds is always expensive.Andrew: Sure. So, I mean, like, I call multi-cloud using multiple providers, but not in tandem. Cross-cloud is when you want to use something like Anthos or Azure Arc or something like that where you extend your data plane or control pla—whatever the plane is, whatever plane across all the providers. But you know, in practice, I don't think many people are doing cross-cloud; they're doing multi-cloud, like, “I use AWS to run my primary workloads, and then I use Microsoft Office Suite, and so we happen to use Azure Active Directory, or, you know, run particular VM machines, like Windows machines for our accounting.” You know?So, it's a mixed bag, but I do think that using more than one thing is becoming more popular just because you want to use the best in breed no matter where you are. So like, I love BigQuery. BigQuery is amazing. So, like, I ingest a lot of our data from, you know, third-party services right into that. I could be doing that in Redshift, which is expensive; I could be doing that in Azure Synapse, which is also expensive. I mean, there's a serverless thing. I don't really get serverless. So, I think that, you know, people are doing multi-cloud.Corey: Yeah. I would agree. I tend to do things like that myself, and whenever I see it generally makes sense. This is my general guidance. When I talk to individuals who say, “Well, we're running multi-cloud like this.” And my response is, “Great. You're probably right.”Because I'm talking in the general sense, someone building something out on day one where they don't know, like, “Everyone's saying multi-cloud. Should I do that?” No, I don't believe you should. Now, if your company has done that intentionally, rather than by accident, there's almost certainly a reason and context that I do not have. “Well, we have to run our SaaS application in multiple cloud providers because that's where our customers are.” “Yeah, you should probably do that.” But your marketing, your billing systems, your back-end reconciliation stuff generally does not live across all of those providers. It lives in one. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I think we're in violent agreement here.Andrew: Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, Kubernetes obviously is becoming very popular because people believe that they'll have a lot more mobility, Whereas when you use all the different managed—and I'm still learning Kubernetes myself from the next certification I have coming out, like, study course—but, you know, like, those managed services have all different kind of kinks that are completely different. And so, you know, it's not going to be a smooth process. And you're still leveraging, like, for key things like your database, you're not going to be running that in Kubernetes Cluster. You're going to be using a managed service.And so, those have their own kind of expectations in terms of configuration. So, I don't know, it's tricky to say what to do, but I think that, you know, if you have a need for it, and you don't have a security concern—like, usually it's security or cost, right, for multi-cloud.Corey: For me, at least, the lock-in has always been twofold that people don't talk about. More—less lock-in than buy-in. One is the security model where IAM is super fraught and challenging and tricky, and trying to map a security model to multiple providers is super hard. Then on top of that, you also have the buy-in story of a bunch of engineers who are very good at one cloud provider, and that skill set is not in less demand now than it was a year ago. So okay, you're going to start over and learn a new cloud provider is often something that a lot of engineers won't want to countenance.If your team is dead set against it, there's going to be some friction there and there's going to be a challenge. I mean, for me at least, to say that someone knows a cloud provider is not the naive approach of, “Oh yeah, they know how it works across the board.” They know how it breaks. For me, one of the most valuable reasons to run something on AWS is I know what a failure mode looks like, I know how it degrades, I know how to find out what's going on when I see that degradation. That to me is a very hard barrier to overcome. Alternately, it's entirely possible that I'm just old.Andrew: Oh, I think we're starting to see some wins all over the place in terms of being able to learn one thing and bring it other places, like OpenTelemetry, which I believe is a cloud-native Kubernetes… CNCF. I can't remember what it stands for. It's like Linux Foundation, but for cloud-native. And so OpenTelemetry is just a standardized way of handling your logs, metrics, and traces, right? And so maybe CloudWatch will be the 1.0 of observability in AWS, and then maybe OpenTelemetry will become more of the standard, right, and so maybe we might see more managed services like Prometheus and Grafa—well, obviously, AWS has a managed Prometheus, but other things like that. So, maybe some of those things will melt away. But yeah, it's hard to say what approach to take.Corey: Yeah, I'm wondering, on some level, whether what the things we're talking about today, how well that's going to map forward. Because the industry is constantly changing. The guidance I would give about should you be in cloud five years ago would have been a nuanced, “Mmm, depends. Maybe for yes, maybe for no. Here's the story.” It's a lot less hedge-y and a lot less edge case-y these days when I answer that question. So, I wonder in five years from now when we look back at this podcast episode, how well this discussion about what the future looks like, and certifications, and multi-cloud, how well that's going to reflect?Andrew: Well, when we look at, like, Kubernetes or Web3, we're just seeing kind of like the standardized boilerplate way of doing a bunch of things, right, all over the place. This distributed way of, like, having this generic API across the board. And how well that will take, I have no idea, but we do see a large split between, like, serverless and cloud-natives. So, it's like, what direction? Or we'll just have both? Probably just have both, right?Corey: [Like that 00:33:08]. I hope so. It's been a wild industry ride, and I'm really curious to see what changes as we wind up continuing to grow. But we'll see. That's the nice thing about this is, worst case, if oh, turns out that we were wrong on this whole cloud thing, and everyone starts exodusing back to data centers, well, okay. That's the nice thing about being a small company. It doesn't take either of us that long to address the reality we see in the industry.Andrew: Well, that or these cloud service providers are just going to get better at offering those services within carrier hotels, or data centers, or on your on-premise under your desk, right? So… I don't know, we'll see. It's hard to say what the future will be, but I do believe that cloud is sticking around in one form or another. And it basically is, like, an essential skill or table stakes for anybody that's in the industry. I mean, of course, not everywhere, but like, mostly, I would say. So.Corey: Andrew, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more about your opinions, how you view these things, et cetera. Where can they find you?Andrew: You know, I think the best place to find me right now is Twitter. So, if you go to twitter.com/andrewbrown—all lowercase, no spaces, no underscores, no hyphens—you'll find me there. I'm so surprised I was able to get that handle. It's like the only place where I have my handle.Corey: And we will of course put links to that in the [show notes 00:34:25]. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Andrew: Well, thanks for having me on the show.Corey: Andrew Brown, co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro Training and so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling me that I do not understand certifications at all because you're an accountant, and certifications matter more in that industry.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Andrew Gazdecki is the founder and CEO of MicroAcquire, the world's most founder-friendly startup acquisition marketplace. MicroAcquire helps entrepreneurs buy and sell startups.After founding and later selling two successful startups, Andrew decided there needed to be a better way to connect buyers and sellers in the startup marketplace. He founded MicroAcquire to fill this void in the startup acquisition arena.In this episode, Andrew shares how he grew his Twitter audience from 30,000 to 70,000 followers in a few short months. He uses his connections with others, his partnerships, his brand, and savvy marketing techniques to boost engagement and attract followers. It's a fun and entertaining episode, and I think you're going to enjoy it.In this episode, you'll learn: The one thing you should spend at least half of your startup's budget on Proven strategies and tactics to grow your Twitter account How to bootstrap your business and retain your autonomy Links & Resources TechCrunch Cameo Effie Empire Flippers Flippa Bizness Apps Sam Parr Stripe Baremetrics ChartMogul Bumble Brandarrow Bootstrappers.com Y Combinator Salesforce Nick Huber David Cancel Josh Pigford Clearco AngelList Avaloq Naval Ravikant Dharmesh Shah The Ladders of Wealth Creation blog post Andrew Gazdecki's Links Follow Andrew on Twitter Follow MicroAcquire on Twitter Episode Transcript00:00:00 Andrew:I'm a big fan of stair-stepping and entrepreneurship. One of my favorite tweets that I've ever written is, “Start with an agency, get to cashflow positive, and then bootstrap an asset—whether that's a SaaS company or your e-commerce business—sell that asset, become financially secure, and then do whatever you want.”Along the way, you prepare yourself for the next stage of business. 00:00:35 Nathan:In this episode, I talked to Andrew Gazdecki, from MicroAcquire. Andrew started a couple other businesses and sold two of them. In that process, he decided there needed to be a better way to buy and sell businesses. So, that's where MicroAcquire came from. Their marketplace originally focused specifically on SaaS businesses, but they broadened to all of software.The reason I want to talk to him—he doesn't write a traditional newsletter or something like that—but he uses audience really well to grow MicroAcquire. He uses his personal brand connections with others, partnerships, a bunch of fun things.We get into how he grew his Twitter audience from 30,000 followers just a couple months ago, to over 70,000. His approach to Twitter, some of the arguments or beefs that he started with TechCrunch and others, and where he thinks those lines are.We also get into how he uses Cameo; he has these great ads announcing partnerships and others from Russ Hanneman on Silicon valley talking about this, and they're really entertaining.So, there's a lot of fun things in this episode, and I think you're going to like it.I'll get out of the way, and we'll dive in.Andrew, welcome to the show.00:01:41 Andrew:Thanks for having me, Nathan. Always a pleasure to be chatting with you. 00:01:44 Nathan:There are a lot of companies in the brokerage/help-me-sell-my-business space. I think of Effie International, Empire Flippers, Flippa, all of these. So, one, you're going into a really crowded market with MicroAcquire, and then, two, you're coming at it like you're a force of nature.Sam Parr and I we're actually talking about this, of how some people start a project and it's like, “Oh, I'm going to do this thing.” And then other people do effectively the same thing. I mean, it's different in a lot of ways, right? But the same category, and come in and just completely dominate, and grow so fast, and it feels like a fundamentally different thing.What's your take on that, of coming into a crowded space, and then the amount of momentum that you've come in with?00:02:34 Andrew:Yeah. I have a lot of respect for all those companies that you mentioned, and appreciate the compliment.The market that is specifically acquisitions hasn't seen a lot of innovation in a decade. Two of the businesses you mentioned are service businesses, Flippa being a marketplace. I looked at that, and I just thought, there's an angle here where sellers could benefit more than the buyers, and I felt buyers were benefiting. So, I took a left while everyone was going right.Then coming in from an entrepreneur's view instead of a buyer's view, or an investment bankers view, or an MNA advisor view, this was me saying, okay, I'm gone through two acquisitions, I think I have a few unique insights into what it would take to make me comfortable putting my business, generating millions of dollars, on a new marketplace. Then, what information and educational pieces would I need to feel comfortable to facilitate an acquisition.So, I just built what I felt acquisition should be. We still have a long way to go. We've done a really good job of connecting buyers and sellers, and all the acquisitions are facilitated off platform. We've been working on a lot of tooling to really add value to the acquisition, if that makes sense.So we're looking to innovate on things like due diligence or even simple items like writing a letter of intent or streamlining escrow, because everyone complains about escrow.com. so yeah, I mean, sometimes it just happens in markets. Like a new entrant comes in with a different angle towards the problem And different viewpoint. and I think my unique, insight there was just, I had been on. The side of the table that maybe the other, companies had not. but it's also, a giant market. So I, think, arising boat lifts all tides. So, you know, we're here to my require. I just made my group or to help entrepreneurs get acquired and, and, succeed.And so, I think also as, you know, Mike require pick steam and helps everyone else in the market as well. So, but, yeah, I don't have a good answer to that. I don't know. I think if I, if I, this, this will sound cheesy, but you know, I, I I'd like to say I built my group hire would love, like I launched it in the middle of the pandemic. I didn't have a business model. I had no idea how I was going to make money. I just knew I wanted to work with entrepreneurs and startups. And the rest is kind of history, you know, along the way, talking to customers, getting feedback from them, pretty much everything we do is basically feedback from customers.I'm not Steve jobs or anything like that. So I can't read people's minds. So I ask what, what ideas do you have? but yeah, it's been, it's been a fun journey so far. my group is about to turn two, which is pretty wild. 00:05:56 Nathan:That first version, that you launched, what did that look like? What, what was the very early stages of it? 00:06:02 Andrew:The first version was, it was just a simple marketplace with a couple of. Changes that I haven't seen in the market. One was privacy and anonymousy and then no fees or commissions for founders. So it was the first marketplace where you could meet buyers and sell your business without paying a 15% commission like you typically would with a broker or something like that.So I think that was kind of a change. And our business model today is we charge buyers for access to the platform to connect with sellers and, you know, having negotiations that lead towards negotiations. But yeah, the first version, required a lot of vetting of the buyers. Every buyer needed like a LinkedIn profile.Some people have complained about that, but I personally would never sell my business as someone, without a LinkedIn profile. I need to know where you worked, like you know, do you have anyone that's bad for you? not just like John 9, 9, 2, 4 5. You know, I need to know, who you are. and we're going to add other ways of verification, but I think that was a big one. and then also real-time metrics integration. So when we launched, you could connect like Stripe and chart, mobile and probable and bare metrics to get like a real, like a nice, pretty graph, like the revenue to help with due diligence. and then also founders and everything was private. So you didn't know what the business was.And as a founder, you had complete control over the process. So when you were with a broker, sometimes it could be kind of showing your business to a lot of peopleAnd you may not know who those people are. they could even be competitive to your business. And so I think what Mike required did that kind of, and I'm just guessing here because I haven't really liked. Taking a step back and then like, what did we do? Right. you know, I'm usually thinking about what can we be doing better? we really put the founder in control. You know, they were the ones able to choose which buyers to speak to. they were the ones able to share which information they wanted to and which information they did not want to share. And again, it was completely free. So it was very low friction to get onto the platform. And then I think just the, the high, the caliber of buyers and the caliber of listing. So we vet every listing. We vet every buyer. Now that registers as a micro require premium buyer, that's where you can contact sellers. so I think it was just kind of like, you know, going from let's just call it like a car dealership to like a Ferrari shop that makes sense where all the cars are, That it, and if you want to know who the owner is, you have to pay for that access, but it was a very specific towards startups, specifically SaaS.So I think that's another thing that I'm thinking of now is we, we went very narrow at the beginning, very narrow. So we were very specific on, specifically, bootstraps, SaaS companies.00:08:59 Nathan:Yeah. I think the approach in different marketplaces is always interesting when, you know, a marketplace is how businesses has like is a generic category, but then the twist on it, of, the seller not paying anything. And it being the buyer who pays, you know, a subscription for access. Why I think that that makes for an interesting twist, because then you're going to have this much higher pipeline of, you know, high quality businesses to look at.And so if a seller is paying for that, that makes sense. It reminds me of like, Bumble as a dating app being like, yep. So within the category of dating apps, but, women have to send the first message, you know, and, and like, that little bit of a twist makes it the marketplace feel, very different and changes the dynamics of. 00:09:40 Andrew:Yeah. I was going to say something, someone called micro fire shark tank, like if shark tank and dinner had a kid, I thought that was kind of an interesting analogy. but yeah, I'd say the, the key. The unique insights I had was again, like, from my perspective, if I'm going to list a business, I need to know who's seeing my information. I want to be in control of, you know, what information is being disclosed or being displayed publicly. and I don't want to commit until I really know, the quality of the buyers. And so that I think was very appealing to just being an entrepreneur. I think I. You know, understood the needs of other entrepreneurs and just kind of got it.Right. But I'm not gonna lie. When I, when I first launched it, I have this, I keep a journal that I update every month. It's not like a weird, you know, Hey dear diary thing. It's I do like, what's going really well. What are some things I'm worried about? and then things I'm grateful for, just to, you know, kind of keep it story log of my life. And before I launched my group wire, I actually, cause this idea had been attempted before, like a real startup acquisition marketplace. I think some of the other market places are more, geared towards, you know, content sites and domains and 00:11:07 Nathan:Yeah, 00:11:08 Andrew:Affiliate websites, but not real. Startups like SaaS companies, e-commerce companies, crypto companies, we've moved into a number of different categories.But, I wrote in my journal, I was like, I don't know if this is going to work, but at least it looks good. cause I, I just thought it needed to exist so bad for entrepreneurs that, we put a lot of thought into user experience and design. So it felt modern. You know, when you're working with startup founders, you kinda, you know, you want to really build trust, like yeah, if you're going to sell your business with us, your startup, you know, we also, we know how to build startups as well, and design them well and make them feel like something like this, this feels legitimate.And I think that's a, what I would call, you know, closing the credibility gap, you know, really, that first impression is so important. So we really kinda overdid the initial MVP. 00:12:06 Nathan:Yeah. I think that design is one of those things where you can go a long ways. And it's probably the first thing that people cut when it comes to the MPP. And that's just, I'm like, Nope, that's not an MVP. You have to cut features. You can't cut like the quality of, of the design. And if I have a limited budget, I'm for sure.Spending half of it, if not more on design. So I think you made the right move there.00:12:29 Andrew:Yeah, I think, I think today, I don't know if we're going to go off topic here, but I think a lot of startups today can legitimately have user experience in design as their competitive advantage. Just saving people, a Couple of clicks, making things easier to use, having a product where you don't have 50 tutorial videos, you've got to watch, or course you have to take. that's a huge advantage. and there's a lot of products that are very clunky and kind of feel like a car with, you know, like a jet ski engine added in. And I just kind of like a Jenga thing, you know, there's just so much technical debt to the product. I think though there's some products out there that I think could be rethought in terms of like the experience and the design they're delivering to the customers.But that's, that's probably a whole nother topic.00:13:22 Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. But we agree. And anyone who's listening to this show knows that I care deeply about design. one thing that I want to ask about and spend a lot of time on is content strategy. if I go to your website and go to the about page, it just lists your title or like your, your job description and your role as marketing. and so I'm imagining that's where you spent the majority of your time in, from the outside. It looks like content marketing is, either a very large or the largest portion of where you spend your time and how you're looking to grow MicroAcquire. Can you talk about how you think about content marketing and the growth of the business? 00:13:59 Andrew:Yeah, I think that was twofold. So number one, the first thing that happened to me when business apps was acquired, I had like five founder friends reach out and they said, how did you sell your business side is, is, were what, you know, so as entrepreneurs, we're not trained to sell businesses, we're not educated on what is due diligence, what are the legal steps of an acquisition?So I felt it was a twofold, the problem with the benefit. And when I say two folded, not right. Prom, but well point number one. Yeah. It's a phenomenal growth channel for us. we think heavily in terms of, you know, what is the content that, entrepreneurs will need when they're going through an acquisition, because the more we can educate them on acquisitions, the more we'll be able to facilitate.And I think that's been crucial, but then two there's just no content in the market that like there's books on fundraising, there's books on marketing there's books, on design there's books on there's a couple of books on, exits, but there just is such a disproportional amount of content available for everything, but a startup being acquired, that we felt, you know, there's an opportunity here to kind of be almost a, I don't want to say thought leader.00:15:20 Nathan:Yeah.00:15:21 Andrew:Kind of write the book, if you will, on, you know, this is, but also important to note is we write content for the seller, not for the buyer. we kinda think, you know, the buyers are set, you know, the buyers that we work with are, you know, private equity firms, corporate dev teams, other startups, people that, generally are sophisticated with, and also a lot of first-time buyers, but so the condoms still applies, but it gets you in the head of the entrepreneur, but we wanted to really empower the founder.So you'll notice every piece of content is angled towards the seller, not the buyer, if that makes sense. And I felt that was critical and just something cool to do for other founders, not like, Hey, this is an article on how to get like the cheapest SaaS acquisition possible. so we read articles on how to maximize your startups exit as.00:16:14 Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that, that perspective is in your, like your founding story for the company, But then it's interesting, like, all right, it makes sense that it carries through all of your content marketing as well, because in the same way that you have know who your customer is, which in the marketplace, you have a lot of different customers or you're, you know, you have both sides of it, but, 00:16:32 Andrew:That's that's something. Yeah, you're onto something. So that's something that, we determined, very, very early. So when we raised our, our seed round, I hired my former VP of product, VP of engineering. My former CFO, and my former head of marketing who's now gone. Cause he went, he was, he was, he was like one foot in he's started this, agency called brand arrow. so if anyone needs help with, Facebook ads or just any sort of SaaS marketing shadow, Tim brown now I told him like, Hey, you got to, I'm a big fan. I need like a micro mafia at one point. So I, I told him to dive in on that, but, we did an offsite and we, defined our culture, you know, our values, but really specifically, like you said, who was our customer?Cause it could be so many people, it could be okay, buyers, but there's so many different types of buyers. You know, which ones are we going to cater towards? And then there's sellers, you know, there's so many different types of sellers. There's people looking to sell comments. Again, domains, Amazon FBA businesses, SaaS founders.And so we really narrowed in, got super specific with our buyer And that really guides a lot of the decisions that we make all the way from the content to the product. I think that's really crucial in the early days, because you can always expand outwards. There's a theory. I don't know if you've heard of this, but the bowling ball theory, you've probably gone through this with your business where, you know, you start with one sorta audience and then I one customer segment, and there's just like these natural sort of like, you know, other segments that target for us, it was like e-commerce.And then we've been seeing a lot of just miscellaneous. You know, profitable software companies. So now we're a little bit more broad. So when I described my required of people, I say, it's a marketplace. So profitable software businesses, not just SaaS anymore, but yeah, we started really specific with SaaS founders being, our initial customer,00:18:37 Nathan:Yeah. Like narrowing it on. That is always a good thing. Okay. So content strategy, I'm seeing you do a lot of different things. one at let's just take Twitter, as a starting point. So I was looking back in August, you had 30,000 followers on Twitter. You have 73,000 followers today. You're tweeting five to 10 times a day.Often. Like you got a lot of, a lot of posts going out. It seems like they're resonating, obviously from the growth and all of that. you have a lot of these single posts are like single sentence. You know, here's an idea latch onto it, like positioning type things. So like one, one example is, instead of thinking of a hundred plus startup ideas, pick a customer you'd love to serve and solve their problems.That gets a thousand likes, 150 retweets or more. I want to know, two things, one, tell me about your Twitter strategy of how it fits into the broader business and what you're trying to do there. And then two, we'll just get into what's working. What's not working. 00:19:33 Andrew:Yeah, definitely. So Twitter strategy, there is absolutely none, aside from having fun. And I'm a firm believer of this, I think when people try to have a social media strategy where their goal is to grow followers. And so you start doing stuff like looking at other people's tweets, and then you take a tweet and this how I see this all the time with some content I put out like, oh, that looks very familiar, but I don't, I don't, you know, I don't care. but they're trying to grow their audience and they're not being authentic to who they are. And they're trying to be, you know, they're trying to, I guess what I'm trying to say is, Find a way to utilize, you know, social platforms in a way that you enjoy. So, one thing notice if you look at all my tweets, they're all from my iPhone.Like they're not from my web app. They're not from a scheduled Twitter thing. I just like that tweet. I remember writing that tweet. I was like, in my kitchen, I was just like, did it, you'll also see a tweet right before this podcast. That's just me. I was waiting for you to come on this podcast. I was like, so I think my point being, and I think this goes even broader is just, you know, if you want to be great at anything, and I'm not saying in any way, shape or form, I've created Twitter, but you just have to enjoy it.And then if you enjoy it, you're consistent at it. And then, I do have a few rules though. I don't usually comment on people's cause like you know, once you start getting to a certain point on Twitter, people, you can just post like Entrepreneurship is awesome. And then people have like a hundred questions and I just don't have the bandwidth to answer all those questions.So I usually will, I'm watching those questions and I'll usually, if some, if something's interesting, I'll, use that as a new tweet. and then you get tweeted out a lot, like, Hey, follow me. Like, Hey, we'd be on my podcast. So I kind of have a rule of like stay in my lane, if that makes sense. I've done a little bit of like beef marketing and stuff like that, you know, I'm sure you saw me like call out like tech, Raj, or maybe like throw a couple of shots at like, just joking, like VC sort of like, you know, shit posting type stuff. And that works. It definitely works. And there's some strategy behind that. That's probably one part of my social media strategy that was, strategic, it's effective, but it's not for the faint of heart. cause you do you make people pick sides, so you're going to upset some people and you're going to make some people really cheer you on.And so, I'm kind of done with that phase. that was fun. 00:22:20 Nathan:So if someone is in that phase or they're thinking about it, right. They, have a specific audience for their business or like a specific focus. They've chosen a niche and they have some strong opinions and they're not that kind of person who's like, you know, like let's not cause any conflict.They're like, no, I'm actually, I'd be, I'd be willing to get into a little bit of conflict. what would you say what's, what's your advice on going down that path of like, if you're thinking of oh, there's a TechCrunch in your space or someone else that you might want to pick a fight with? 00:22:49 Andrew:Did you just gotta really believe it? like, and I think it has to be factual, like what I said about, TechCrunch, as an example, just go on their website right now and see it. And tell me if you can find an article about a bootstrap startup. like, that's all I said is like, you guys are a publication that writes about just venture backed businesses. and you know, what kind of really struck a chord with me with that was my prior company business apps. You know, we were in TechCrunch, all the time. Like they loved writing about, you know, real business building storage partnerships, you know, version 2.0 launches, you know, international exp like, you know, stories that inspire entrepreneurs.And they moved towards, you know, this really venture backed sorta, you know, you're, you're either in it, or you're not in it. And I just blindly called them out on time and then some people. were like, yeah. And then I was like, huh, maybe there's something here. And then I just, and this is how I always think of or how I validate ideas as well as, so I have a publication now called, bootstrappers.com, which is just kind of like my.Like what I wanted, like just, you know, I want inspiring stories, like back in like 2010, you would read articles on TechCrunch about like, two people. They just launched a product, no funding. I remember some of the writers I used to work with, are they all left? They're all gone. It's like a new, it's a new company.It's, it's been acquired by four different companies. And you know, some of the older writers you're out, but, the older crew, would kind of joke and say, Hey, BC's like, I hope you banked me one day for writing about all the companies that I discovered. and then you find it later. now the opposite is entirely true. And so I, I wanted to bring that style. You know, journalism back where it's stories about companies making like 200,000 a year or 500,000 or 2 million. because you know what, I read an article about a company raising 200 million and then 500 million, like the next week. it doesn't really inspire me too much.And I think that celebrated so much today and, you know, the startup community that I think it's a little dangerous, I think, as a young entrepreneur, like if you think the path to being a successful founder is. Get into Y Combinator, raise a bunch of funding, get featured in, you know, these magazines, because that's what happens when you get fun.That's like the only way to get covered sometimes, is funding announcements. and even then it's hard cause there's so many. so I think that creates an environment where a lot of entrepreneurs are focused on raising capital rather than raising or generating revenue from customers.And that was just something that I lived through.I had a really good mentor. We're told, are we going off topic too far?00:26:04 Nathan:Well, I do want to take you back to, like the idea of like picking a fight. But finish the thought with a mentor. Who's everyone, everyone listening knows that ConvertKit is bootstrapped. I'm a huge fan of that and the same things, the same reason that you're picking a fight with TechCrunch or that you did, I would do the same because we experienced that, you know, we could have more revenue, more customers, all of that than, anyone else, but they're only going to write about the VC funded version.So, 00:26:28 Andrew:Yeah. So so long story, short business apps, my company prior, boot shove that business, and I just had a really good mentor Christian free Freeland. And he was always challenging me to think against the difficult soak on early pap. And we were based in San Francisco for five years, eventually moved to San Diego and that's where we exited the business. but, yeah, now that like I'm on my third, I took a little hiatus and went into crypto land for a little bit. So it got away from like SaaS and stuff like that, but now I'm back home. and yeah, just saw that and said, okay, and then actually TechCrunch did write a little bit about bootstrapping and then I've also seen a lot of other people start saying the same thing, like agreeing, which I think has been cool.It, which isn't like it's not a bad thing that TechCrunch or any publication, I don't want to just hone in on, on TechCrunch. because th they're, they've done so much for so many founders. but yeah, other people, I feel like the first shot was fired. Like, Hey, You know, we miss the old version of, you know, maybe mix it up a little bit.And they've taken some of that feedback and I've actually written about some bootstrap companies and then other people have kind of said the same thing. Like, you know, the startup ecosystem is really turning into this, you know, fundraise craze news cycle. And, you know, there's 99% of other startups that aren't going down that path.So that creates kind of like a movement. So that was like the benefit of, of beef marketing sometimes is you, again, make people pick sides. Some people agree with it, some people don't. yeah. So advice for anyone in terms of beef marketing, I, I, again, I, going back to my original point, it how you have to believe it, you have to believe what you're saying.It can't just be like, you know, one foot in, from my perspective, Most of the major tech publication should write about, you know, businesses that are profitable and sustainable and ones that are raising a bunch of capital and going public like a good mix would be amazing because then that gives you a true picture of, you know, all the different styles of entrepreneurship, you know, the ones that are at the top of the top and the ones that are taking a more sustainable practical approach, just giving a more realistic view into the world of entrepreneurship instead of just kind of, you know, putting this one style on a pedestal.Yeah, I mean, just get ready for, I mean, nothing bad happened. so I would just say also with beef marketing, it doesn't have to be just, an individual Oregon or, or an organization. Like good examples. So I've always had a, like, kind of an, a branding, an enemy, and all my businesses for business apps.It was a large businesses. Like our main sales pitch was, you know, Starbucks down the street, paid 2 million for their, mobile app, blah, blah, blah. You know, would you like to create that same customer experience for your customers and, you know, like David versus Goliath type story, you know, Mike group, we're kind of fighting for the founders.Then all the other stuff that I just talked about, but Salesforce had, their, their enemy was on-premise software. They essentially invented SaaS, you know, the company. Say a little chat thing. Yeah. They had a big campaign of just no forums. Like no one wants to download an ebook anymore, like forms go away, please. and I thought that was very clever, box.com had some beef with Microsoft, which was definitely fun to watch. I've I've been around long enough where I remember seeing in San Francisco, like, the billboard of like box, just basically saying Microsoft sucks. you know, Uber and Lyft were throne, had a food fight for awhile.That one probably went over over the line maybe. but yeah, my point is, is there's other examples it could be, for your business, it could be expensive. To like, I don't know, like it could be, it doesn't have to necessarily be like a organization or it definitely shouldn't be a person either.Like don't ever like just straight up call. That's just, that's not cool. Like if you have a problem with a person, call them and tell them your problems, like, that's it now. Like that's not, I don't, I don't support that at all. I think that's ticky-tacky and just a sign of just weak character, if you're just literally, you know, trying to tear someone down for your business's benefit,00:31:28 Nathan:One thing that's interesting, I think is you probably watch some, maybe beefs between individuals is just how many of them, maybe are planned or facilitated in some way. that is interesting. Like someone, messaged me today because, sort of like Nick Huber who's, has a popular Twitter profile under sway startup.Hopefully we'll have him on the show soon. He was, he posted something like controversial, which I know is one of his top of funnel tweets, right. To try to get as much attention. And so I purposely like aggressively disagreed with it, you know And then we're just separately texting, like, Oh, thanks for the engagement, you know Right. Because we know that by deceit, like if he strongly takes one stance and I strongly take the other stance, then like one, no one will think we're actually mad at each other, but then too, like, it'll get a lot more attention engagement. So a lot of people are doing. Some version of that. or if you see a happening usually between two individuals often, they're probably on really good terms behind the scenes. 00:32:26 Andrew:Yeah, I did not know that that's, that's me staying in my lane. I, I, I missed it. but yeah. I, mean that's business entertainment, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong with that, but I, think there's a line to be drawn, you know, like, If you do engage and stuff like that. number one, I think it's always great when, like, if it's real and then they like, like, Hey, we're cool now.Like, you know, we did this in pub and now like, okay, we're on 00:32:59 Nathan:Close that loop. 00:33:00 Andrew:Yeah. I think, I think that's really cool to see. but yeah, public food fights, not my thing. don't have appetite for that or any advice, but I will say, I will say Nick is coming hard on some, some of the stuff I've said, like, 00:33:16 Nathan:Whole angle. 00:33:17 Andrew:Yeah.The, the one thing I'll say about that though, that style like shit posting, you know, I was like some view of like VC funds just based on like shit posting and stuff like that. what I've noticed, ‘cause this, this actually, this is probably a good tidbit for, you know, if you're considering, beef marketing and what happens is you draw in a type of crowd that likes that negativity and it, and that can drain on you.And so if you should ship posts all the time, like a large amount of your followers are just going to be shipped posters, and they're going to be, then all your comments are like, use a blah, blah, blah. I mean, if you go on Nick's feed, you can just kind of look, just look at his comments. He has like a million people.Unfortunately insult, I kind of feel bad for him sometimes because I've also seen him comment how it affects him personally. I, I don't know him, so maybe it doesn't give a shit, but, that's why, again, I say, stay in my lane. Just keep it positive. Aye. Aye. Microfibers entire marketing strategy is literally just inspire or support encourage entrepreneurs.It did. not, I mean, not getting beefs with people and stuff like that.00:34:33 Nathan:Have you. like, there's the side that you're, you're taking of, using your personal brand for marketing, you know, growing a Twitter audience, all of that. You're very off the cuff of like, you know, just firing off, tweets or things that you, you think about. But at the same time, like you're a professional marketer and you tend to, from my new at you and other places, like you're very methodical, you tend to attract things really well.Do you track efforts that go into Twitter and Like how that translates into, you know, deals on MicroAcquire or new buyers or sellers, you know, like listing listing companies or any of that. 00:35:10 Andrew:So I'm a big believer in, so David can sell from drift said this really well where, I think I might've mentioned this to you the last time we talked, but, he, he broke it down into like three phases where, we've gone through three phases of SaaS. Like the first phase was invention murder. The first person to kind of build a tool one, the market.And then the second phase was the first company to really figure out the best, go to market strategy, like LTV to CAC, you know, AEs STR ratio who could, who could land grab the market fast enough. And then right now he says, he calls what we're in today, the Procter and gamble phase, which is your brand. So it's most defensible part about, your business is your brand. Your technology can be copied. it's easier than ever to raise capital to build a team to do that. There's also other things like your culture and your team's talent and just, you know, again, your unique insights into the market. People can copy chapter one, but not chapters two and three and four that you have planned. so I think a lot about that, a lot in terms of just brand and market reputation. But So, no, we don't, I don't measure it. when a tweet goes viral, like the one you just mentioned, I don't look at the comments because when a tweak gets like a thousand likes00:36:33 Nathan:Yeah,00:36:34 Andrew:Is gosh, like the questions and the people like disagree with you and just, you know, you start to enter, it's like, you're in a stadium of, you know, 200,000 people are reading this and then like 200 people have comments, not everyone's going to be like, yeah.Like half of them are going to be like negative stuff. So, yeah. So I, I push, I push away all negative energy. So if, if it's not positive, I'm over it. 00:37:05 Nathan:W what you're describing is interesting of the city of idea of, if you think about it, like maybe your immediate group of friends, you post something, the people who reply right away, you interacted with them a bunch, like that's who's on the field or whatever. And then the next group is like the coaches, the diehard fans, like the re the support staff, everyone else, like those are your Followers. And then you can tell every time that this tweet goes beyond that, because you start to get, like, I had one on company culture that, was like a thousand retweets and went really far. and you could just immediately tell when it had gone to like two levels beyond the people who follow me, cause it just, it went totally off the rails. And you're right. That the only thing you can do is like mute your own thread and move on. 00:37:50 Andrew:Yeah, I just, and you could tell, cause I usually will like everyone's tweets just cause I respect everyone's opinions, like bringing, Nick back up. He, I remember I had a tweet, just something about how entrepreneurs that have maybe struggled in their childhood, have an advantage. He came in with like a strong disagreement and kinda, but I respected it.But then I, we, we kind of close the loop with like, Hey Mike, I think you're taking this out of context. so I'll respect everyone's opinion, but once it goes, you know, I'll like all of, them. And then once it goes viral, that's when it's like all, everything is just nuts. Like, you know, I can't, I would never want, I can't keep up with it.And then too, I've probably already moved on to like three or four other tweets that, you know, I'm thinking of or something like that, but I think, I think that's another important side of, just social media in general is just understanding like everyone has a right to their opinions. So even if people do strongly like disagree, that's awesome.You know, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has, You know, unique view of life And how things work. and I respect all those opinions, but I think one. thing about social media that can get kind of crazy is when you're taken out of context, I've had that happen a couple of times. Like the one time with Nick, maybe, he took it as I think like, people with really great families, you know, like divorced dads make less than married men. and I, was like Nick, no, this isn't about diverse families. It's just about like entrepreneurs struggling with when they grew up. Like I were Joe, and then I had another one. This one was, this is a crazy one. I had one, I tweeted out. Hire people you'd be friends with. And that was, literally someone literally took that as far as saying, nice job describing why tech is sexist and racist in five words.And I, and I was like, what? And I was hanging out with my sons. I didn't have like enough, I didn't catch it in time. And so I come back, to my phone and I had to delete the tweet. And then I actually, you know, put more con like, Hey, I meant that as like, you know, hire people, you'd be friends with and you'd care for them personally and professionally, not just hire a bunch of white people or something like that.Like what? So sometimes you gotta be careful, when that kind of stuff goes down. And it's also just fascinating how people can, again, their, their perspectives, like their perspectives and their viewpoints. you know, you can say one thing and it means one thing to you and something completely different to someone 00:40:47 Nathan:Right.Yeah. I remember a time that Josh Pigford, for bare metrics, had a tweet about concerns in your, in a resume when someone, you know, has had 10 roles in 10 years or kind of thing, or like jumped between roles every 12 months. And that, I I'm not even fully sure why, but, but that one, like he got jumped on in a very similar way of people taking out of context and saying like, this is what's wrong with technology and 00:41:14 Andrew:Let's talk about that for a second. So when you're, when you're taken out of context, Just admit it, just say, Hey, that, that this is not what I meant. And then I recommend is deleted tweet, and just clarifying, just like, Hey, I wrote a tweet, this, this is what I actually did. I deleted the tweet. And then I said, Hey, I had a tweet taken out of context and it's obviously a little embarrassing, you know, but it's the right thing to do is like, Hey, like that's not what I meant.So also admitting, you know, that's not what you meant, but clarifying when people like, that's not that that was not my intention of those five words in any way, shape or form, even like, that, that, that experience was so far off. I still kind of scratch my head on it. But my point being is, you know, it, you know, take one back, like, Hey, listen, I, I said something, it was taken out of context.I apologize. this is what I really meant for further clarification. And it'll just make your life a lot easier instead of trying, to defend, because I know the thing is if Mrs. Also I don't really comment too much on social media. Number one, it's just exhausting because you can have so many, then you're like a, full-time like customers support person on Twitter. again, you know, once You kind of engage with someone who vehemently disagrees with what you're saying, or has taken you out of context, it's really hard to change their opinion, if not impossible. So even trying, once you, if you just try you lose. You just start throwing food and stuff like that.So that's just kinda some of the crazy stuff I've seen happen on, on Twitter as, you know, gone a little bit more active. cause I, I wasn't active on Twitter, so all this is like new to me too. I'm still learning like, oh shit posers. I didn't, I didn't know those existed or like, oh wow. You can get really taken out of context and it can go viral and people can say some mean things.So yeah, my, again, going back to just saying I stay in my lane and just talk about stuff that I liked it. Talk about.00:43:35 Nathan:I like it. something else that you've done that I hadn't seen other people to do before, but I get it as a strategy. so separate from like just sort of specific, but it's using cameo and using spokespeople on cameo. for your business specifically, you got Chris, demon topless from Silicon valley and all of that to do announcement videos for partnerships and one they're amazing. but like w where did that come from? And, how'd that turn into something that like, And, now if someone says like tres commas, like in relation to micro choir, everyone's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. 00:44:15 Andrew:So for the longest time, it was just me running Mike requir. I was a solo founder. and on the team page, we just like, as I was working on the design with, I initially use an agency to help with, the development. And, there was a team page and I was like, ah, just put Richard Hendrix, Gavin Belson, and Jen yang from Silicon valley.And it just kinda was, I just thought it was cool. And some people like, you know, called it out and was like, are these really your team members? And I'm like, yeah, they were super harder recruit. So I'm, I'm a huge fan of the show because it is shockingly accurate and just hilarious. and then, yeah, so I actually, you know, before, like right when I launched my crew choir, I.When on cameo saw Russ Hanneman Chris. I can't pronounce his last name off the top of my head, but, you know, he was available and he was like my favorite character. And I was like, yeah. W do you want to talk about my group choir? And since then we built, you know, a pretty good relationship in terms of, you know, just working with them.And he's a really great guy. Like he's a really, really, really nice person. but my point here is I'm always thinking about what's, I'm always learning and I'm always trying to think of what is changing in marketing today? For example, the marketing playbooks that worked five years ago don't work as effectively today because everyone adopts them and starts using them.And then it starts to, feel like marketing and the best marketing doesn't feel like marketing it's entertaining, or it, captures your attention in a way where you go, whoa, I haven't seen that before. So I'm always trying to think of unique ways to, capture or actually I should say, earn audience attention rather than buy it, or, you know, writes an ebook and engaged it and get your email and then send you 30 trip emails, which worked fantastically a decade ago, which killed a decade ago.But So that's kind of where the thought process and then candidly. I would say, I might laugh the hardest out of those videos. So it's like my like guilty, like pleasure. cause you know, they're not free. So like, you know, I, I probably am lapping the hardest, like when those go out.00:46:46 Nathan:I've I've laughed pretty hard at a lot of them, especially as like, they end up in a series where they like build on each other. The, he uses jokes that he first coined and, you know, first video. And,00:46:58 Andrew:Yeah. a little background on that too is, I didn't tell him to make up anything like he's made of like gas Decky style, micro Gaz, micro, and like, I don't tell, I just basically, cause you're only able to write in like two sentences and he he's just a hilarious person. So any startup looking to, you know, announce something, I highly recommend checking it. 00:47:21 Nathan:I guess how has the business side of it work? Right? Cause if you go on, on his page in particular, it says $349 for personal use or 909 plus for business use, which makes sense that there would be a split there because you've obviously gotten a lot of earned, earned, attention from those. how does it work actually on the payment side? 00:47:41 Andrew:In terms of like using Kamya.00:47:44 Nathan:Yeah. Using cameo, maybe using Russ specifically. Well, Chris, not Russ. But using him specifically or, you know what you've done, you've done with, other people on cameo. 00:47:56 Andrew:Yeah. So he's kind of the only we did a partnership with Clearco and I had like the game, the rapper, duke came here just because I kind of went on like a cameo binge, like I've been a fan of you forever.00:48:12 Nathan:Cards on file. You know, you're just like00:48:15 Andrew:Yeah. I was like, I'd love for you to just say micro choir. Like this is awesome. who else did we get?I can't remember off the top of my head, but, what's been interesting to see what Chris is. when I first booked him, he was $200. Now he's 5,000. So he, has definitely, you know, made some waves in the startup community. And So it's, it's cool to see him like, you know, making people laugh and helping startups get exposure and then raising his prices too, which is, I think something that, you know, most startups should do.So he's done a very good job of that. It, it went from like one K to two K to three K. Now it's at like, 5k, so he's expensive. 00:49:00 Nathan:So that's like when we see something like that, right. If the nine and nine plus, in the buying process, then later, does it tell you like, oh, here's like once you fill out, the initial form, it'll tell you what, what the price is or how's that work?00:49:13 Andrew:So there's, there's a personal use. So you can use his personal, I don't know his like personal cost, but let's say it's like 500 bucks and that would be for like a birthday wish or something like that, which can be a great way to motivate like your team, like, Hey team, great. You know, Q1 or Q4 that's ending, here's our goals for next year, you know, made, they want to me to give you all shout out, that'd be 500 bucks, but then a business use where you posted, externally, so on Twitter or social media, or, within some sort of piece of marketing content.The price for that is usually 10 X, you know, internal use. 00:49:55 Nathan:Did any of the other ones that you tried? Did you feel like they got attention or that kind of thing make you want to do it again? Or was it more just the ones with Chris that really resonated. 00:50:04 Andrew:I think probably you'll see less cameos, out of me, I think, you know? there, there, there gets to a point and we could, we could probably have another podcast about this, about like things with diminishing returns. And I think I've kind of, you know, used them so many times that, I mean, for the really big like, announcements that we have coming up, like maybe twice next year or something like, that but I think there's sort of a diminishing return, especially with the cost, you know? I think building in public kind of falls into that category a little bit. audience exhaustion in terms of like paid ad campaigns. you know, so I'm always thinking of that stuff too.I like, are we overdoing it? cause then it just kinda starts to get corny is when you're doing it over and over and over and over. and it's not really like, whoa, he's here. Like I didn't expect this. And when it starts to become expected, I think if there was just kind of a little bit of luster. 00:51:05 Nathan:Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. something else that you do a ton of is partnerships, whether it's with PYP or angel list or whoever, it feels like micro choirs coming out with a partnership. Every, I don't know what the actual cadences, I feel like it's every two weeks to a month. what's the, what's the strategy there. And is that like a very deliberate, marketing strategy or is it just like, look, this is a natural fit. And so we're just going to do a better job. It made sense to do the partnership and we're just going to do a better job promoting it than most people do. And when they come out with a partnership, 00:51:35 Andrew:Yeah. I mean, so the pipe Clearco Angeles partnerships all made total sense. They help startups get acquired, which is, you know, the purpose of our business. And, you know, our, our main metric of success is helping startups get acquired. So helping them get financed, increases the buyer pool, which then can lead to more acquisitions.So there's, those made a ton of sense. and then we also want to expand internationally. So we partnered with, essentially like the angel list of, Africa that serves 40 countries in Africa. And so I thought that was a really fun partnership in terms of, you know, helping, really underserved. areas of the world, or support underserved areas of the world with my group who are in terms of, you know, just our message and just our encouragement and we're going to continue those.So we're looking, actively speaking with, individuals that are, you know, accelerators or like, start a boot camps and like Turkey or Europe or the UK or Australia. I have a number of conversations, but we'll probably go a little lighter on those because I also feel like the partnership thing is it's like, okay, another part is another partnership might require really. but that's, I think partnerships are, what I would call a non-linear growth strategy. So it's basically, you know, what you're doing is you're leveraging, you know, number one, Another company's brand So you're, you're borrowing some of their brand equity saying like, Hey, we're partnering. So their capabilities are now part of our capabilities and vice versa. so there's benefits on both sides. And then you know, with products that, you know, pipe clear co and Angeles offers specifically, it adds value to our product. So it's like a win, win, win. It's a, it's a good marketing play, good brand play. And then it's good. Just, you know, product play without, a lot of, you know, engineering needed. 00:53:41 Nathan:Is there, like, do you have engineers internally just devoted to, you know, these integrations or, or did they tend to be more on the marketing? you know, our business ops side rather than on the product side, because then they can be expensive on the product side.00:53:55 Andrew:Yeah, they definitely can. I would say they're more. On the marketing side then on, like for example, the angel is partnership is just a landing page that so Avaloq, the CEO of Angeles is an investor in might require and then evolve in an investor in my rewire. And so I just asked, I pointed out this other company that was making an SPV product for private equity firms.And I just said, can you make me a landing page? I'll promote it. And so inside my group where there's like a drop down that says raise bonds, and then it takes you to a landing page. So minimal product integration there, but it's just kind of like us saying, Hey, if you, if you're looking to raise funds, this is where we recommend you doing it.We've done that with mercury bank as well, which is just, again, you know, you acquire a company, you probably want to transfer those assets and do a new entity. That new entity is going to need a bank account. So we're just kind of getting all the re they're almost like perks. If you will.00:54:54 Nathan:Yeah. That makes sense. And then it's not this big integration that you're having to maintain for years to come or.00:55:01 Andrew:Yeah, no, it's not like a, like a Facebook, like a, you know, SSO log-in or something like that. you know, it's a, it's a lot simpler. It's usually just like a lane kicking over to a landing page, you know, driving traffic to them and then we get some sort of kickback for whatever business we drive to them.00:55:20 Nathan:Is there anything in particular that's worked well on, like the partnerships that have been a, a, huge boost, right? Where either you've gotten a bunch more attention for Mike require built the brand. Like, are there things that you see in common on those ones where you're like, yes, that was a home run versus the ones where you're like, I think that was worth the time to put together.Maybe 00:55:40 Andrew:Yeah. I mean, I'd say, I'd say all of them, I'd say my favorite are definitely the Clearco and pipe partnerships. like. Hers is he, oh, he bought me this to kick off our partnership. It's assigned Mike Tyson glove and we've done a number of acquisitions together. I think their company's fantastic. I love working with our team.Clearco same thing. So pipe, I was finance all of our SaaS deals exclusively, and then Clearco all of our e-commerce deals exclusively and they're just great teams and it's a clear need. You know, some people want to finance these with, these companies and we make it extremely seamless to connect to those companies.And we even do like pre-financing. So if you're a founder looking to sell on Mike required and you want to give a line of, you know, potential financing in advance to a buyer, we can, pre-approve a seller. So it just makes kind of the, you know, when you're going to buy a home, it's like it's pre finance or something.I don't know if that's a good analogy, but, those are, those are partnerships that really add, like they were on the product roadmap and they just, you know, we just went to the best ones in the market with the most credibility, with the largest capital pools. but also with the engineering resources.So, you know, anytime a company is, you know, financed through pipe, we get a notification within slack. It says like, Hey, add preapproval number to this company. So we just, we, instead of working with like a ton of different financing partners, we just pick the best ones and then then integrated deeply with them.00:57:23 Nathan:That makes sense. One of the things that I wanted to ask about before we wrap up is, on the sort of the investor influencer side, you have a lot of people, like know, you mentioned Deval and, and others who, have invested in MicroAcquire. And is that, helping of like helping you you know, amplify some of these things on Twitter amplify, these partnerships, open doors in some way.Do you think you get something similar with like a influencer program or has the investor side really been a good, good angle for that? 00:57:54 Andrew:Yeah, that's a good question. So yes, there's definitely the group of investors that my career has is like all my, like idols, like, you know, founders of companies that, you know, I like, you know, Dharmesh from HubSpot, Neval like, From Angeles, like those are some of my favorite companies and I get to, interact with them on a, on a very limited basis. I don't reach out to them for advice, very often. So I think that also adds to just, you know, brand equity of just, being a marketplace, you know, and us wanting to build this with the startup community. That was kind of more of the thought process behind it. But now, I mean, you could even look at my likes.I, I ha I, was, has evolved over, liked something of, mine now has Dharmesh maybe once, like, so now I don't rely on them for like social media support or anything like that. but it, it is, a good way in terms of, you know, when you raise your entreprenuers, you get kind of, again, unique insights because most of them have been through MNA. so, so typical VCs, but, I, I really liked that, style of, of fundraising is when, obviously I'm a bigger advocate of bootstrapping because that's kind of, you know, where I've spent, or had the most success. But if you're gonna raise capital, I, I recommend entrepreneurs for us because they have experienced building a business.And then typically with, you know, acquisitions specifically in my case, which is you know, extremely helpful. 00:59:33 Nathan:Yeah, you and I are both known for bootstrapping. And we're also, I think, pretty well known for not being that dogmatic about it, of being like, here's what we did. Here's why it works well. Here's why the other path can be fine too. you know, rather than being super dogmatic in one camp or the00:59:49 Andrew:Yeah. That's one thing I've noticed since being vocal about bootstrapping that I think is a little toxic; if you're funded, it's like, I hate you. Then, if your bootstrapped, venture capital's just a tool. If you know how to use the tool correctly, it can be a great accelerant to your business. Everything comes with a cost. So, when you bootstrap, you have to kind of eat glass for much longer. I've lived that life, but at the end, the rewards can be epic.So, if your goal is to make money, you should probably bootstrap, because you can sell the business whenever You want. You have no approvals. You own the whole thing. Nathan, if you wanted to sell your business, you don't have any investment or approvals, or anyone saying, “No, you need to hit that billion dollar mark.” If you want to really disrupt the market, or change a market or, go a little bit bigger, faster, venture capital is just a tool to accelerate that. It all comes with a cost.The cost of bootstrapping is, sometimes you have to do customer support for longer. You have to do some of these roles where you can't bring in talent earlier. The cost of venture capital is, you give it back equity and control within your business. There's usually controls. You need approval to raise capital. You need approval to sell your business.So, everything comes with a cost, and it has pros and cons. I think bootstrapping makes sense for 99% of entrepreneurs, because the bar today is building a billion dollar business, and that's not easy to do. So, for many first-time founders, I'm a big fan of stair-stepping and entrepreneurship. One of my favorite tweets that I've ever written is, “Start with an agency, get to cashflow positive, and then bootstrap an asset—whether that's a SaaS company or your e-commerce business—sell that asset, become financially secure, and then do whatever you want.” Swing for the fences, go on a beach, whatever. Along the way, you prepare yourself for the next stage of business.01:02:24 Nathan:Yeah, I completely agree with that. I have an article titled “The Ladders of Wealth Creation” that touches on the similar idea of using the skills from one ladder to move up to the next, and go from there.Well this has been fun. I always enjoy watching the partnerships, what you're doing on Twitter, and everywhere else.I think that MicroAcquire is a great example of what you can build with an audience. Thanks for coming on and hanging out with me and, and we'll have to talk soon.01:02:52 Andrew:Yeah, Nathan, thanks for having me, man. I enjoyed the chat.01:02:55 Nathan:Alright. Catch you later.01:02:56 Andrew:See you, man.

Andrew Warner has been part of the internet startup scene since 1997. Andrew and his brother built a $30 million per year online business, which they later sold. After taking an extended vacation and doing some traveling, Andrew started Mixergy. Mixergy helps ambitious upstarts learn from some of the most successful people in business.Andrew and I talk about his new book, Stop Asking Questions. It's a great read on leading dynamic interviews, and learning anything from anyone. We also talk about longevity and burnout as an entrepreneur. Andrew gives me feedback about my interviewing style, the direction I should take the podcast, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why you need to understand and communicate your mission How to get your guest excited about being interviewed What to do instead of asking questions How to hook your audience and keep them engaged Links & Resources ConvertKit Gregg Spiridellis JibJab Ali Abdaal The Web App Challenge: From Zero to $5,000/month In 6 Months Groove Zendesk Help Scout Jordan Harbinger Noah Kagan Bob Hiler Seth Godin Morning Brew Alex Lieberman Keap (formerly Infusionsoft) Notion Sahil Bloom Ryan Holiday Brent Underwood Ghost Town Living Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator Damn Gravity Paul Graham Y Combinator Nathan Barry: Authority Ira Glass NPR This American Life Barbara Walters Richard Nixon interview Oprah interview with Lance Armstrong Matt Mullenweg Chris Pearson Conspiracy: Peter Thiel, Hulk Hogan, Gawker, and the Anatomy of Intrigue Peter Thiel Gawker Nick Denton The Wall Street Journal Rohit Sharma SanDisk Jason Calacanis Dickie Bush Sean McCabe Daily Content Machine Jordan Peterson Tribes Warren Buffet Sam Walton Ted Turner GothamChess LinkedIn Learning (formerly Lynda.com) Inc.com: Selling Your Company When You're Running on Fumes Chess.com Mark Cuban James Altucher Rod Drury Andrew Warner's Links Andrew Warner Stop Asking Questions Mixergy Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Andrew:The top 10 interviews of all time are news-based interviews. We, as podcasters, keep thinking, “How do I get enough in the can, so if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month, so I can be consistent, and the audience loves me.”That's great, but I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who's suddenly done something, we should go ask to do an interview with them.[00:00:32] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my friend, Andrew Warner, who I've known for a long time. He actually played a really crucial role in the ConvertKit story in the early days, and provided some great encouragement along the way to help me continue the company, and get through some tough spots.We actually don't get into that in this episode, but it takes an interesting turn because we just dive right in.Andrew's got a book on interviewing. He runs Mixergy. He's been, running Mixergy for a long time. We talk about longevity and burnout, and a bunch of other things. He dives in and challenges me, and gives me feedback on my interviewing style. Where I should take the Podcast, and a bunch of other stuff. It's more of a casual conversation than the back-and-forth interview of how he grew his business. But I think you'll like it. It's a lot of what I'm going for on the show.So anyway, enjoy the episode.Andrew, welcome to the show.[00:01:25] Andrew:Thanks for having me on.[00:01:26] Nathan:There's all kinds of things we can talk about today, but I want to start with the new book that you got coming out.This is actually slightly intimidating; I am interviewing someone who has a book coming out about how to be good at interviewing. Where do we even go from here? You were saying that you have thoughts?[00:01:47] Andrew:I have feedback for you. I have a thoughts on your program.[00:01:51] Nathan:I'm now even more nervous.[00:01:52] Andrew:I've been listening, and I've been following, and I've been looking for questioning styles. Is there feedback I could give him? I mean, I've wrote a whole book on it. I should have tons of ideas on that.I don't. Here's the thing that stood out for me watching you. There's an ease and a comfort with these guests, but I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to do with the Podcast. What is connecting them? Are you trying to bring me, the listener, in and teach me how to become a better creator who's going to grow an audience and make a career out of it? Or are you trying to learn for yourself what to do?How to become closer to what Ali Abdaal doing, for example, or Sahil Bloom? Are you trying to do what they did, and grow your audience? Or is it a combination of the two?I think the lack of that focus makes me feel a little untethered, and I know that being untethered and going raw, and letting it go anywhere is fine, but I think it would be helpful if you gave me a mission.What's the mission that Nathan Barry's on with the Podcast. Why is he doing these interviews?[00:02:56] Nathan:Oh, that's interesting. Because it's probably different: my mission, versus the audience members' mission.[00:03:05] Andrew:I think you should have a boat together and, but go ahead.[00:03:08] Nathan:I was going to say mine is to meet interesting people. Like that's the thing I found that, podcasts are the pressure from two sides, one as a creator, as an individual online, like I'm not going to set aside the time to be like, you know what, I'm going to meet one interesting person a week and we're just going to have a conversation riff on something like that.Doesn't happen the times that, you know, the years that I didn't do this show, I didn't set aside like deliberate time to do that. And then the other thing is if I were to set aside that time and send out that email, I think a lot of people would be like, I kind of had to have a busy week. I don't know that I've, you know, like yeah, sure.Nathan, whoever you are. I did a Google search. You seem moderately interesting. I'm not sure that I want to get on that.Like a, get to know[00:03:58] Andrew:They wouldn't and it would be awkward. And you're right. The Podcast gives you an excuse. I think you should go higher level with it though. I think you should go deep to the point where you feel vulnerable. I think what you should do is say something like this, isn't it. You have to go into your own into your own mission and say, this is what it is.And just, so let me set the context for why this matters. I think it helps the audience know, but it also helps you get better guests to give better of themselves. I talk in the book about how I was interviewing Greg spirit, Dallas, the guy who created jib, jab, you know, those old viral video, it was a fire video factory that also created apps that allowed you to turn your yourself into like a viral meme that you could then send to your friends.Anyway, he didn't know me. He was incredibly successful. He was, I think, person of the year, a company of the year named by time. He was on the tonight show because he created these videos that had gone viral. And yes. He said yes, because a friend of a friend invited him, but I could see that he was just kind of slouching.He was wearing a baseball cap. It wasn't a good position. And then he said, why are we doing this? And I said, I want to do a story. That's so important. That tells the story of how you built your business. Yes. For my audience. So they see how new businesses are being built online, but let's make it so clear about what you did, that your great grandkids can listen to this.And then they will know how to great grandfather do this and put us in this situation. And that's what I wanted. I wanted for him to create that. And he told me that afterwards, if he had known that that was a mission, he wouldn't have put his hat on. He said that after that, he started thinking about the business in a more in depth way, visualizing his great grandchild.And then later on, he asked me for that recording so that he could have it in his family collection. So the reason I say that is I want us to have a mission. That's that important that yes. You could get somebody to sit in front of the camera because you're telling me you're doing a podcast, frankly.Right. You're with ConvertKit they're going to say yes, but how do you bring the best out of them? And that's it. And so that's why I'm doing this. And so one suggestion for you is to say something like.I'm Nathan, I've been a creator my whole life, but I'm starting from scratch right now with YouTube.I've got 435 people watching YouTube. It's not terrible, but it's clearly not where I want to end up. And so what I've decided to do is instead of saying, I've created the book authority, I wrote it. I'm the one who created software that all these creators are using a ConvertKit. Instead of, instead of allowing myself to have the comfort of all my past successes, I'm going to have the discomfort of saying, I don't know what it's like.And so I'm going to bring on all these people who, because maybe I've got credibility from ConvertKit are going to do interviews with me. And they're going to teach me like Alia doll and others are going to teach me how they became better creators, better business people. I'm going to use it to inform my, my, growth on YouTube.And by the way, You'll all get to follow along. And if you want to follow along and build along with me, this is going to come from an earnest place. Now I've obviously gone. Long-winded cause I'm kind of riffing here, but that's a mission. And now we're watching as you go from four to 500, now we care about your growth.Now there's someone giving you feedback and more importantly, there's someone who then can go back years later and see the breadcrumbs. Even if the whole thing fails and say, you know what?Nathan made it in virtual reality videos. And he's amazing. But look at what he did when YouTube was there. He clearly didn't do it, but he aspired right. I could aspire to, if I don't do it, I'll do it in the next level. That's that's what I'm going for with it. I talk too much sometimes and give people too much, too much feedback. How does that sit with you?[00:07:14] Nathan:I like the idea. I particularly love anytime a creator's going on a journey and inviting people along for it, right. When you're sitting there and giving advice or whatever else, it's just not that compelling to follow it unless there's a destination in mind. So I did that with ConvertKit in the early days of, I said, like I called it the web app challenge said, I'm trying to grow it from zero to 5,000 a month in recurring revenue.Within six months, I'm going to like live blog, the whole thing. people love that another example would be also in the SAS space, but, the company grew, they did a customer support software and they, I think. They were going from 25,000 a month to 500,000 a month was their goal. and they even have like, in their opt-in form, as they blogged and shared all the lessons, it had like a progress bar.You'd see, like MRR was at 40,000,[00:08:08] Andrew:Every time you read a blog post, you see the MRR and the reason that you don't remember what the number was is I believe that they changed it, you know, as they achieve the goal, they, they changed it to show the next goal on their list. And yeah, and you've got to follow along now. Why do I care? The groove, HQ or groove is, is growing a competitor to Zendesk and help scout.But now that I'm following along, I'm kind of invested now that I see how they're writing about their progress. I really do care. And by the way, what is this groove and why is it better than help scout and the others? Yeah. I agree with you. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think in conversations also, it makes a lot of sense.I think a lot of people will come to me and say, Andrew, can I just ask you for some feedback? I'm a student. Can I ask you for support? It's helpful for them to ask, but if they could ground me in the purpose, if you could say to somebody I'm coming to you with these questions, because this is where I'm trying to go, it changes the way that they react.It makes them also feel more on onboard with the mission. I have a sense that there is one, I'm just saying nail it, you know, who does it really good? who does a great job with it is a Jordan harbinger. He starts out his each episode is almost if you're a fan of his, it's almost like enough already. I get that.You're going to do an opt-in in the beginning of the Podcast. I get that. What you're trying to do is show us how to whatever network now and become better people. But it's fine. I'd much rather people say, I know too much about what this mission is. Then I don't.[00:09:26] Nathan:Do you who's afraid anyone else tuning in? What, what is Jordan's mission? What would he say is the mission that[00:09:32] Andrew:It's about, see, that's the other thing I can't actually, even though I've heard it a billion times, he's adjusted it. It's about, self-improvement making me a better person better, man. And so the earnestness of that makes me accept when he brings somebody on who's a little bit too academic who's, Jordan's interested in it or a little bit too practical to the point where it feels like I'm just getting too many tips on how to network and I don't need it, but I've got his sensibility.He's trying to make me a better person. And so I think with interviews, if you, if you give people the, the mission, they'll forgive more, they'll accommodate the largest and it does allow you to have a broader, a broader set of topics.[00:10:14] Nathan:Yeah. I'm thinking about the mission side of it. Like all of that resonates. and I love when an interview is questions are Like are the questions that they specifically want to know? It's not like I went through my list and this seems like a good question to ask instead. It's like, no, no, no, Andrew specifically, I want to know what should I do about, this?And I'll even call that out in a show and be like, look, I don't even care if there's an audience right now. Like this is my list, you know?[00:10:41] Andrew:Yes.[00:10:41] Nathan:But the, like if we dive into the mission, the one that you outlined doesn't quite resonate. And I think the reason. I think about, creators who have already made it in some way.And it starts to lose that earnestness. Like, honestly, I'm not that interested in, in growing a YouTube[00:11:00] Andrew:I don't think that that's I don't think that that's it for you. It's true. That's a little bit too. I don't know. It's it's a little, it's a little too early in the career. There is something there. I don't know what it is and it can't be enough. It can't be enough to say I need to meet interesting people because that's very youth centric and I'm not on a mission to watch you, unless you're really going to go for like the super right.And we're constantly aspiring, inspiring. the other thing it could be as you're running a company, you're trying to understand what's going on. No Kagan did that really well. I actually have the reason that I know this stuff is in order to write the book. I said, I have all my transcripts. I can study all the ways that I've questioned, but I also want to see what other people have done.And so Noah Kagan did this interview with an NPR producer. I had that transcribed to understand what he did and what he learned. One of the things that he did in that, that made that such a compelling interview is. He was a podcaster who wanted to improve his podcasting. And he, I think he even paid the producer to do an interview with him on his podcast so that he could learn from him.Right. And in the process, he's asking serious questions that he's really wondering. He's trying to figure out how to make a show more interesting for himself. Now. Clearly someone like me, who wants to make my Podcast more interesting. I'm like mentally scribbling notes as I'm running, listening to the podcasting.Oh yeah. The rule of three, like what are the three things you're going to show me?Well, yeah, at the end he did summarize it and he did edit. I don't like the edits at all because the edits take away some of the rawness of it and the discomfort which I personally enjoy, but I see now how he's editing it out.And it's, it's interesting to watch that progress.[00:12:32] Nathan:Yeah, I'm thinking through. The different angles that I could take with this. cause I like it and I feel like there's a, a thread that's not quite there. And I felt that on the show. Right. Cause people ask, oh, why are you having this guest on versus that guest? and it is that like, I, I find them interesting.There's also another angle of like probably half the guests maybe are on ConvertKit already. And so I want to highlight that. And then the other half of the guests aren't and I want them on ConvertKit and so that's an, you know, an incredibly easy, I can send you a cold email and be like, Andrew switched to ConvertKit.Right. Or I could be like, Hey, you know, have you on the show, we could talk. and we've gotten great people like in the music space and other areas from just having them on the show and then[00:13:18] Andrew:Can I give you, by the way, I know it's a sidetrack and I give you a great story of someone who did that. Okay. it's not someone that, you know, it's a guy who for years had helped me out. His name is Bob Highler every week he would get on a call with me and give me advice on how to improve the business.And then at one point he said, you know what? I need new clients. I want to start going after people who are, I want to start going after lawyers, helping them with their online ads, because lawyers aren't, aren't doing well enough.He started doing all these marketing campaigns because he's a marketer. And so one of the things he did was he got these cards printed up.He said, they look just like wedding invitations, beautiful. He, he mailed them out to lawyers. He got one, two responses. Like nobody would pay attention to a stranger, even if they were earnest and sending those out. And he goes, you know, and then he gets on a call. He doesn't even know what to say to people.If he just cold calling goes, I'm going to try to do that. And Andrew, I'm going to do an interview show for lawyers. He picked bankruptcy lawyers. He started asking them for interviews. They were all flattered because they also want another good Google hit. Right. And so they said yes to him and he asked them questions.Then I started learning the language. I forget all the different terms that he learned about how, about how they operate. But he said, inevitably at the end, they'll go after it was done. And say, by the way, what are you. And then he'd have a chance to tell them. And because he's built up this rapport and they trust him, they were much more likely to sign them.He signed up his customers, just like that, just like that. It's a, I think it's an, it's an unexplored way of doing it, of, of growing a business, taking an interest in someone, shining a light on them, helping them get that Google hit and helping them tell their story. And then by the way, will you pay attention to the fact that I've got a thing that if you like me, you might like also,[00:14:50] Nathan:So a few years ago, I was in New York and Seth Goden had come out to speak at our conference and he'd ever said, Hey, if you're in New York and want to make the pilgrimage up to Hastings on Hudson, you know, of outside the city, like come up and visit. And so I did that and it's so funny, cause it is like this pilgrimage to you, you like take the train up along the river. You know, I don't know what it is an hour and a half outside of the city. and I was asking Seth advice at his office, about like how to reach more authors. I think that was the question I asked him specifically and he just, he was like, well, what do authors want? And I was like, ah, I, some more books I guess.And he's like, yeah know. And so like we went through a series of questions, but he's basically what he came to was, find a way to get them attention so that they can grow their audience to sell more books. And he was suggesting a podcast is the way to do that. What's interesting is that's the side, like that's the other half of it, right.I want to meet interesting people. I want to, Like get more of those people that I find really interesting on ConvertKit pushed the limits of like, our customer base in, in those areas. And then the third thing is I want to do it in a way that's high leverage in my time. Write of, I want to do it.That creates something, for people watching and listening along so they can follow the journey. But I still don't see,I would say two thirds of that is about me, right?[00:16:18] Andrew:It's not only that, but all these things are byproducts more than they are the clear goal. You're going to get that. No matter what, if you just talk all day about what? No, not talk all day. If you do, what was it? I'm the founder of morning brew does nothing, but like a 15 minute, if that sometimes five minutes.[00:16:37] Nathan:Alex Lieberman.[00:16:38] Andrew:Yeah, just what, what goes on in his life now it's changed over the years or so that he's done it, but it's just, here's what we were thinking about today. Here's how I'm deciding to hire somebody BA done. He's just doing that. That's enough to get attention enough to also broaden his audience enough to bring us in and then so on.So I think if you just did nothing, but get on camera and talk for a bit, you'll get that. But I think a higher leverage thing is to tap into that personal mission and let all the others come through along the way and all the other benefits, meaning that you will get to meet people and change the way you think you will get to get people to switch to convert kit.And so on, by the way, that's such a, like an impressive thing for you to admit, to say, I want to have these guests on because I want to assign them up. I think a lot of people would have those ulterior motives and[00:17:23] Nathan:Oh, no, you got to just talk about, I mean, that's something you and I, for as long as we've known each other have been very, very transparent in both of our separate businesses and our conversations and it's just, everyone wants that. Right? Cause they're like, I think I know why Nathan is doing this, but he wants.And that would be weird, but if we go to the mission side of it, there's mission of like this, I'm going to improve the world side of mission, which definitely exists that can protect you. And I got my little plaque behind me. It says we exist to help creators are living. And so we can take that angle of it, thinking of like the, the goal journey side of things, since we're just riffing on ideas.One way that might be interesting is to make like a top 100 list of the top 100 creators we want on ConvertKit. And the whole podcast is about interviewing those people and reaching them. And, and so it could be like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. And you're going to learn a whole bunch along the way as a listener, but you, you know, we check in on that.And then another angle that we could take that would be different is the, like we're going together. We're going to help the creator make the best version of their business. And so you make it more of a.We're both peers diving in on your business, riffing on it, you know, how would we improve it? that kind of thing.[00:18:43] Andrew:I think helping creators create a business, seems like something others have done, but not quite your approach, your style, the way that you will go and carve something is this is the thing that's over your head that says create. Is that something you carved in your wood shop? Then I saw on Instagram.Yeah, right. The sensibility of I've got to create it my way. Instead of that's a pain in the ass, I got a business to run who like, right. You're not going to see, for example, infusion soft, go, we need a plaque. Let's go to the wood shop. No, you're not. It's just not their sensibility. Right. Coming from a sensibility of someone who cares about the details, who every button matters in the software, everything behind your shoulder matters to you for yourself, even the stuff I imagine.If you look forward would have a meaning there, it wouldn't be random chaos. Is it random chaos in front of, on the[00:19:32] Nathan:The desk is random chaos, but there's a sign that says the future belongs to creators up there. And[00:19:38] Andrew:Okay. I think I might've even seen that online somewhere. So I think that coming, coming from the business point of view, With a sense of creator's taste, I think is something that would appeal to a lot of people. For whom seeing, for example, my take on business would be completely abhorring. All I care about is where the numbers are and what it's like.Right. Well, even allium doll's take on, it would not be, would not be right, because he's much more about every movement needs to matter. He can't just have a checkbox in notion it Ellis has to fire off five different other things that notion because otherwise you're wasting time. Why type five things when you could type one, right.It's a different sensibility. And I think you've always done really well drawing in that audience. I remember talking to a competitor of yours who started around the same time, also done really well about why you were, you were really growing tremendously faster. and they said he nailed it. He nailed who his audience is.It's the bloggers. It's these early creators who, who didn't have. Who didn't have anyone speaking for them. And you did that. And I think maybe that's an approach to saying, look, we are creators. And the business of creation is, or the business of being a creator is evolving and we want to learn about every part of it.And then it's interesting to hear how somebody growing their audience in an interesting way. How is somebody thinking about writing? I love that you asked Sahil bloom about how long it took him to write. I know he talks about it a bunch, but it's, it's interesting to hear him go with you about how it is like a five hour, seven hour writing job for him, right.To write fricking tweets. He's writing tweets, right? You've got people just firing off the tweet. He's spending five, seven hours on it. And, and he's also not a guy who's just like, right. It would be something if he was still in school playing baseball, and this is his intellectual, whatever. No, he's now running in investments.He's making decisions. He's helping promote his, his portfolio companies and he's spending five hours writing and he's doing it like one a week instead of one an hour. Right. It's all very interesting. And that approach, I think, ties completely well with ConvertKit.[00:21:41] Nathan:Okay. So where does that take us on like the mission or the hook for the show? Cause we're.[00:21:48] Andrew:Okay. Here's what I would do. I would, I would just keep riffing go. My name is Nathan Barry. You probably know me from convert kit. I'm doing this podcast because I like to meet interesting people. And here's the thing I'm trying to do or I'm I I'm doing it because I'm compelled to talk to these people who I admire.And I also want to learn from them about how they create and just riff on it. Like every week, even have every interview have a different one, until you feel like, oh, that's the one that feels just right. But if we just here, I want to have this person on, because I'm trying to learn this thing. I want to have this on because secretly I'm trying to see if I can get him to be at, see if I can get Ryan holiday to actually be on convert kit.Right. Boom. Now, now we're kind of following along as you're figuring it out. And that's also[00:22:29] Nathan:Yeah.[00:22:29] Andrew:The way, is Ryan holiday going to be on here or what?[00:22:31] Nathan:On the show,[00:22:33] Andrew:Yeah.[00:22:34] Nathan:Probably we were just talking the other day. We have a shared investment in a ghost town, So we, we often talk about that,[00:22:40] Andrew:Oh yeah. I've[00:22:42] Nathan:Other thing[00:22:43] Andrew:That ghost town. Oh, that's a whole other thing I've been watching that[00:22:45] Nathan:I need to have speaking of the ghost town, I didn't have Brent Underwood on because that Is an insane story of everything going on with town, but it's just been building this massive audience.[00:22:58] Andrew:Who's doing YouTube videos from there? He[00:23:00] Nathan:Yeah. And he's now got 1.2[00:23:01] Andrew:Yeah,[00:23:02] Nathan:Subscribers on YouTube, like 2 million on[00:23:04] Andrew:I had no idea. I watched him in the early days of the pandemic go into this place by himself. Almost get trapped, driving his car to get there. Right. I go, this is fun content. And usually when you watch someone like that and good morning, America go, and I'm going to jump out of this thing.And I've never jumped before, maybe whatever. I don't know.Yo, the producer's not going to let you die. It's fine. Here you go, dude. Who's just trying to get attention for this thing. Cause he has some investors who he wants to make sure get what they want. Yeah, you could die. What the hell is you doing?What? Like I'm going to, I'm going to go down this hole and see if there's anything over you yet. Dude, you could[00:23:41] Nathan:Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. I actually, some of the weeks that he don't, he, that he didn't post the videos. I'd like, texted him, be like, Brett, you're still alive because you know, the video was the way that we knew every Friday, like, okay, Good Brent. Still alive, everything. Everything's good. Anyway, I got to have him[00:23:58] Andrew:All right. If you do talk to, if you talk to Ryan holiday, I feel like you totally nailed his writing style, where you, you said in one of your past episodes that he can take a whole historical story, sum it up in two sentences to help clarify the moment that he's writing about. And it's like a toss away thing, right? Just toss it away and then move on and go, dude. That's a whole freaking book. In fact, just turning the whole thing into just two sentences to fit in there would take silo, bloom five hours. You put it in a book with other, like there a bunch of other sentences. So that's good. But here's what I think you should talk to him about.Or here's my, my one suggestion. He has not talked about Marketing since he created, trust me. I'm a lot. Trust me. I'm lying, which was a phenomenal book that then I feel like he distanced himself from when he became more stoic and more intellectual. Fine. He is still a great, great marketer along your style, your tasty.And in fact, he's becoming the people who I can think of that are very, ConvertKit like philosophy in their creation plus promotion. He nails it, right? Art that takes so much pain that you've mentioned, and we've all seen it. He has boxes of index cards to create these sentences that most people would just throw away, not pay attention to, but are super meaningful.And at the same time, he knows how to promote. He knows how to get his ideas out there. He knows how to sell a coin that says you're going to die in Latin, that people put in their pockets that are more than just selling a coin. It's selling this transferable viral, real life thing. Right. So anyway. And is he should be on a ConvertKit too.[00:25:29] Nathan:He is, he is[00:25:30] Andrew:Okay. Good.[00:25:31] Nathan:Half of his list started in Berkeley. The other half are in the process of switching over. So, you know,[00:25:36] Andrew:Okay. Yeah, that's the hard part, dude. I I'm with infusion soft. I can't stand them. If you understand how much I do not like them. I do I ever talk negatively about anyone. No. Bring up politics, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I got no strong opinion about anything you talked to me about, about infusions. Ah, but the problem is it's so hard to wean yourself off of these things because once you're in a system, that's it[00:25:56] Nathan:Well we'll make it happen. W w we'll figure out a way, but the new book landing page for it, I went on there and inspected element. It's definitely a ConvertKit for them. I was pretty happy about it.[00:26:06] Andrew:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So truthfully it was, I said, I'm not going to school around here. It would have probably been easier for me to go with, with infusion soft because then we all we'd have to do with tag people who were interested. And then I could, I don't want that. I don't want that nonsense because it comes with overhead.That becomes an obstacle to me, communicating with my audience by, by overhead. I mean, they've got historic legacy. Requirement's that mean I can't do anything right. You I'm on my iPad. I could just go in and send a message out. Or actually I haven't sent a message out. Someone else has sent a message out.Our publisher sent a message then from damn, ah, damn gravity. But I, but if someone says there's a problem, I can go in and see it.[00:26:44] Nathan:Right.[00:26:44] Andrew:And make adjustments. The whole thing just fricking works. Right?[00:26:47] Nathan:So I want to talk about the book more. Let's talk[00:26:49] Andrew:Sure.[00:26:50] Nathan:And now I have you here.[00:26:52] Andrew:Ben needs, us to talk about the book. He's the publisher.[00:26:54] Nathan:We'll get to that, then don't worry. Ben, we've got it covered. so you were giving unsolicited feedback, which by the way is my favorite kind of feedback. Okay.So as you've been listening to the show, what are some other things that maybe you recommended the book, maybe like as you set people up for interview questions, any of that advice that you would give beyond?We started with the men.[00:27:15] Andrew:I'm going to suggest that people who listen to you do pay attention to this. One thing that they should, I I'm interrupting you in a roadway now there's some good interruption that I write about in the book and I can tell you how to do it. Right. And I also have to say that there's some new Yorker that's built in, even though I've left New York a long time ago, that I, I always interrupt when we need to get into the bottom line.Okay. Here's one thing that I think people should pay attention with you. You don't just ask questions. You will, at times interject your own story, your own, take your own experience. And I find that a lot of times people either do it in a heavy handed way. It's like, look at me, I'm equal to you. I deserve to be in this conversation too.And that doesn't just happen on Mike. It happens at dinner parties or it's more like I have to be reverential. So I'm asking questions and it's me asking about them. And one of the things that I learned over the years, Getting to know someone interviewing someone, whether it's like you and I are doing in our podcasts and shows or doing it, in a, in a dinner conversation, it's not asking questions.It's not about saying here's my next thing. Here's my next question. It's overwhelming and draining to do that. You do need to say, well, here's me. You do need to sometimes just guide the person to say, now tell me how you wrote the book. Now tell me how long it takes to, to write a tweet, right? Whatever it is, you need to sometimes direct the person.And so I call the book, stop asking questions because that counter intuitive piece of knowledge is something that took me a fricking interview coach to help me accept that. It's true, but it helps. And you do it really well. And here's why you do it. Well, you interject something personal. Somehow you do it succinctly.You don't get rambling off. Maybe you edit that.No, no, because the videos are there. Yeah. It's, it's not edited. It's just you saying here's, here's my experience with this. And then when you come back and you ask something. It informs the guest about where you are and what they could contribute to that. It lets them also feel like this is a dialogue instead of them being pounded with demands of, in the forms of question.[00:29:15] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. I think that for anyone listening and thinking about starting a podcast, it's really like, what's the kind of thing that you want to listen to. And I like it where the host is like a character in the, in the Podcast, in the episode where they're contributing content and it's not just like, oh, if I listened to Andrew on these 10 shows, I'm just going to get Andrew.Like, I want it where it's like, no, I'm getting the blend between these two people. And the unique things that come from that intersection rather than, you know, I've heard this[00:29:46] Andrew:Yes.[00:29:47] Nathan:I've heard about it.[00:29:48] Andrew:I think also it took me a long time years of, so I started doing this in 2007, give or take a year and I think. No one needs to talk about, I don't need to talk about myself. They don't care about me. They care about, you know, Paul Graham, who I'm interviewing about how he found a Y Combinator, someone.And I would get tons of emails from people saying, tell us who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. And I would argue with them and say, no, but I understand now on the outside, when I listen, I don't know who you are. And it feels very awkward to hear it. It feels very much like, I don't know why, where you're coming from.And so I don't know why I should listen. It's kinda, it's it's counterintuitive.[00:30:29] Nathan:Yeah. I think it just comes with comfort over time. Like, I, I don't know this for sure. If I bet if I listen back to my first podcast episodes, the ones that I did in like 2015. I have a different style because I bet I'm less comfortable or more worried about like, make sure that I shut up quickly so that the guests can talk more because people came here for the guest and then over time you just get more comfortable.[00:30:53] Andrew:So you wrote authority and I remember you, I remember buying it and I remember you bundled it with a bunch of stuff, right. And oh, by the way, it's so cool. I was listening to it on a run and I heard you mention my name in the, in the book I go, this is great and I'm running. but I remember you did interviews there.I don't remember whether the style matches up to today or what, but you did interviews in it. Right.[00:31:15] Nathan:I did.[00:31:16] Andrew:And what you had there that I think is always important to have with all, all interviews is you had a sense of like, well, the sense of mission, I knew what you were going for, because you were trying to say, here is this book that I've written on this topic.I'm want to bring these people in to bring their, their take on it. We were all kind of working together. And I feel like, when I look at my earlier interviews, I listened to them. The Mike sucks so badly. I was too ponderous. Cause I wanted to be like, IRA glass from, from NPR, from this American life.And you could hear the same rhythm, the same cadence, like I'm copying him. Like I'm his little brother trying to learn how to be like a real boy. but I had this real need. I was trying to figure out how these people were building companies that work to understand what holes I had in my understanding to see what was working for them that I didn't know before.And you could see that and it, it helps. It helped me continue. Even when I was nervous with the guest, it helped the guests know where to go. Even when I wasn't doing good job, guiding them and help the audience keep listening in, even when the audio stopped, because there's this thing that Andrew is trying to understand.And you almost feel like you're the sense of vulnerability. If it doesn't scare you away, then it makes you want to root.[00:32:40] Nathan:Yeah. And I personally love that style because I want to follow someone going on a journey and, and trying to accomplish something specific. But let's talk about the not just the book, but asking questions or in this case, stopping it, stop asking questions. What are the things that not even just specific to this job, what are the things that you listened to interview shows?And you're like, okay, here are the three things that I want to change or that I want to coach you on in the same way that I was coached on.[00:33:10] Andrew:Okay. So what I started to do is I go through my own transcripts. I mean, I had years of transcripts to see what worked and what didn't I already done that. So I said, I need to now add to it. And so I went back and looked at historical interviews, like when Barbara Walters interviewed Richard Nixon and got him so frustrated that he didn't want to ever talk to her again.Or when Oprah finally got to sit with Lance Armstrong, how did she do that? I think. You know, you know, let me pause on, on Oprah and Lance Armstrong. She got to interview him after he, he was basically caught cheating and he was about to come out and do it. Great. Get, I think the fact that she interviewed him, there's a lesson there for, for all of us who are interviewing, interviewing the top 10 interviews, I think of all time.And you go back to Wikipedia and look it up. You see art or interview podcast or interview, sorry, our news-based interviews. We as podcasters, keep thinking, how do I get enough in the can so that if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month or whatever, so that I can be consistent in the audience loved me.That's great. But I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who suddenly done something, we should go and ask to do an interview with them. If there's a creator, if there's someone. So for me, one of the top interviews that people still it's been years, people still come back and talk to me about is when Matt Mullenweg decided that he was gonna pull out Chris[00:34:35] Nathan:Pearson.[00:34:35] Andrew:Per Pearson.Pearson's, themes from WordPress. And I got to talk to both of them at the same time and I published it and it went all over the internet with all over the WordPress internet. So hundreds of different blog posts about it, eventually all the people in the WordPress world write a lot of blogs, but also it became news.And so we don't do enough of that.[00:34:57] Nathan:I remember that interview because I was in the WordPress community at that time. And I remember you saying like, wait, I'm in Skype and I have both of you in two different things and you pull it together and not to pull Ryan holiday into this too much, but that's where he ended up writing the book.Was it, he realized he was one of the only people who was talking to like both Peter teal and, who's the Gawker guy.Yeah. Anyway, people know, but, but being in the intersection of that, so you're saying find something that's relevant on the news[00:35:33] Andrew:Yeah. Nick Denton was the founder of Gawker. Yes. Find the things that are relevant right now. And when people are hot right now, and they know you and you have credibility in this space, they trust you more than they trust. Say the wall street journal, even right, where they don't know where's this going.I think that's, that's one thing. The other thing is I think we don't have enough of a story within interviews. If we're doing S if we're doing at Mixergy, my podcast and interview where we're telling someone's story, we want them to be somewhere where the audience is at the beginning and then to have done something or had something happen to them that sets them on their own little journey.And then we make this whole interview into this. Into this a hero's journey approach. So I think better when I have an actual company in mind, so, or a person in mind. So last week I was interviewing this guy, Rohit Rowan was a person who was working at SanDisk, had everything going right for him. His boss comes to him and says it, you're now a director, continue your work.But now more responsibilities he's elated. He goes back, home, comes back into the office. Things are good, does work. And then a couple of days later he's told, you know, we mean temporarily, right? And he goes, what do you mean? I thought I got, I got a promotion. No, this is temporary. While our director's out you're director of this department.And then you go back, he says, the very next day, he couldn't go back into the office. He sat in his car, just, he couldn't do it anymore. And so he decided at that point, he'd heard enough about entrepreneurship heard enough ideas. He had to go off on and do it himself. And so we did. And then through the successes and failures, we now have a story about someone who's doing something that we can relate to, that we aspire to be more.[00:37:13] Nathan:So, how do you, you, your researchers, how do you find that moment before you have someone on? Because so many people will be like, yes, let me tell you about my business today. And oh, you want to know about that? How'd, you know, you know, like, as you,[00:37:27] Andrew:Yeah,[00:37:28] Nathan:That hook in that moment? That actually is a catalyst in their own dream.[00:37:33] Andrew:It's tough. It's it takes hours of talking to the guest of, of looking online of hunting for that moment. And it takes a lot of acceptance when it doesn't happen. One of my interview coaches said, Andrew, be careful of not looking for the Batman moment. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, you're always looking for the one moment that changed everything in people's lives.Like when Batman's parents got shot. And from there, he went from being a regular boy to being a superhero. Who's going to cry, fight crime everywhere. His life doesn't really work that way. There aren't these one moments, usually the change, everything. So I try not to. Put too much pressure on any one moment, but there are these little moments that indicate a bigger thing that happened to us.And I look for those and I allow people to tell that without having it be the one and only thing that happened. So if Pharaoh, it, it wasn't that moment. It could've just been, you know what, every day I go into the office and things are boring. And I think I have to stop. What I look for is give me an example of a boring.Now he can tell me about a day, a day, where he's sitting at his desk and all he's doing is looking at his watch, looking at his watch and he has to take his watch, put it in his drawer so that he doesn't get too distracted by looking at his watch all day. Cause he hates it. Now was that the one moment that changed everything?It was one of many moments. It might've happened a year before he quit, but it's an indication. So when we're telling stories, we don't have to shove too much pressure into one moment, but I do think it helps to find that one moment that encapsulates their, why, why did they go on this journey? Why does someone who's in SanDisk decide he's going to be an entrepreneur?Why did someone who was a baseball player decide that he had to go and write a blog post? Why is it? What's the thing that then sends them off on this journey? It helps. And I would even say, if you can get that moment, it just helps to get the thing that they were doing before that we can relate to. So what's the thing that they did before.So anyway, we have two different types of interviews. One is the story-based interview where we tell a story of how someone achieved something great. And so that hero's journey is and approach. The other one is someone just wants to teach them. All you want to do is just pound into them for an hour. Give me another tip another tip another tip of how to do this.Like pound, pound, pound, pound pound. If you want the audience to listen. I think for there, it helps to have what I call the cult hook because I said, how do I, how do cults get people to listen to, to these people who are clearly whack jobs sometimes. And so studying one called I saw that what they did was they'd have a person up on stage who talked about how, you know, I used to really be a Boozer.If you came into my house, you would see that there'd be these empty six packs. I was so proud of leaving the empty six packs everywhere to show myself how much alcohol I can drink. My wife left me. And when she left me, she just told me that I hadn't amounted to anything in my life. And I was going nowhere.And I just said, get I here. Instead of appreciating that this was just like terrible. And I ran out of toilet paper and don't even get me started with what, what I did for that. And so you see someone who's worry worse off than you are on this path of life. And then something has. They discover whoever it is.That's the cult leader. And they say, now I've got this real estate firm I encouraged by, oh, by the way, all of you to come over and take a look at that at this, I couldn't believe it. My whole life. I wanted to buy a Tesla. I now have the Tesla S it's amazing. It's just so great. And I did it all because I changed the way I thought once I came in and I found this one book and the book told me, I mean, anyways, so what we try to do is we say, if you're going to have somebody come on to teach how they became a better blogger, let's not have them start over elevated where everything they do is so great that we can't relate, have them start off either relatable or worse.I couldn't write here's my grammar, mistakes. My teacher told. Right. And now what's the thing that they did. They pick them from where they were to where they are today. it's this real set of realizations. Now I want to go into that.Let's pound into them and see how many of those tips we can get. Let's learn that I want to go from where he was to where he is.[00:41:28] Nathan:Yeah, I liked that a lot. Cause my inclination would be like, okay, we're we're doing the, educational, tactical conversation. I'm going to facilitate it. Let's dive right in and let's get to the actionable stuff right away. So I like what you're saying of like, no, no, no. We need to, even though this is going to be 90% packed, full of actionable material, we need to dive in and set the stage first with the story and making it relatable.And I like it.[00:41:55] Andrew:Yeah,[00:41:55] Nathan:Oh, yeah. I was just, just in my own head for a second. Cause I say, ah, that makes sense a lot, so much so that I've had three different guests or listeners email me and say like, just don't say that makes sense as much would, now that I'm saying it on the show, I'll probably get more emails every time that I say it.Cause that's like my processing, like, oh, oh, that makes sense. As I'm thinking of the next question and all that, so[00:42:22] Andrew:I do something like that too. For me. It's IC,[00:42:25] Nathan:Everyone has to have something.[00:42:26] Andrew:I can't get rid of that and yeah.[00:42:28] Nathan:So what systems have you put in place on the research side so that you're getting this, are you doing pre-interviews forever? Yes. Are you having your[00:42:38] Andrew:Almost every single one, some of the best people in some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet, I'm surprised that they will spend an hour or do a pre-interview. And sometimes I'm too sheepish to say, I need an hour of your time and I need you to do a pre-interview. So instead of saying, I need you to do a pre-interview.I say, here's why people have done it. And I've paid for somebody to help make my guests better storytellers of their own stories. And truthfully people will go through that. Pre-interview even if they don't want to do an interview, they just need to get better at telling their story for their teams, their employees, their everyone.Right. and so I say that, and then they will take me up on the pre-interview and say, yes, I do want to do the pre-interview. and so what I try to do is I try to outline the story. Ahead of time in a set of questions. And then what we do is we scramble them up a little bit based on what we think people will tell us first and what will make them feel a little more comfortable.And then throughout the interview, I'll adjust it. So for example, no, one's going to care about the guest unless they have a challenge. No guest wants to come on and say, I'm going to tell you about what's what I really suck at or where I've really been challenged. If they do, they're going to give you a fake made up thing that they've told a million times to make themselves seem humble.So we don't ask that in the beginning. We don't even ask it in the middle. We save it till the very end. Now they've gotten some time with us. They've gotten some rapport, they trust us. Then we go into tell me about the challenges, what hasn't worked out for you. And we really let them know why tell people the higher purpose you want the audience to relate.You want them to believe you. You want them to see themselves in you, and to learn from you. We need. They tell us, and then I have it in my notes as the last section, but I use it throughout the interview. I sprinkle it. So the goal is to get the pieces that we want and in whatever order makes the most sense and then reshape it for the interview Day.[00:44:33] Nathan:So on the interview itself, you would, you would flip that and you know, okay, this is what I want to start with and, and dive in right[00:44:41] Andrew:Yup. Yup.[00:44:43] Nathan:Lose. They already told you about that. And so now, you[00:44:46] Andrew:Right,[00:44:46] Nathan:In and start with.[00:44:47] Andrew:Right. That helps. Now, if there's something I want to ask someone about that they're not comfortable with. One thing that I do is I, I tip them off. So Jason Calacanis invited me to go do, interviews with, with investors at one of his conferences. It was just a bunch of, investors. And I looked at this one guy, Jonathan tryst, and he looked really great.But he, what am I supposed to do? Ask him about what startups should do to run their businesses. He's never run a startup. His, he hadn't at that time had a successful exit. As far as I knew, like mega successful exit. He's just a really nice guy. You can tell he was going places, but that's it. And the money that he was investing came from his parents.So what is this rich parents giving their kids some money. Now he's going to tell everyone in the VC, in the startup and VC audience, how to live their lives. So I said, I'm either not going to address it, which I think most people are, or I have to find a way to address it where I'm not going to piss them off and have them just clam up on me and then go to Jason and go.This guy just is a terrible interviewer, which is not true. So what I decided to do was tip him off. I said, look, Jonathan, before we do this, before we start talking to the audience, I have to tell you, I saw it, that you don't have much of a track record as an investor. Your money came from your parents and you're not like a tech startup, like people here.If we don't talk about it, people who know it are going to think, oh, this guy, Jonathan, look, who's trying to pass him soft self off. I don't have to force it in here, but if you allow me to, I'd like to bring it up and let's talk about, and it goes, yeah, absolutely. If it's out there, I want to make sure that we address it and sure enough, we talked about it and he had a great answer.He said, no, this came from my parents. It's not my own money. I don't have as much experience as other people, but I took my parents' money. I invested it, fat parents and family and so on. We've had a good track record with it. And now have raised the second Fallon fund from outsiders who saw what I was able to do with the first one.And by the way, I may not have this mega exit as a startup investor, as a startup entrepreneur. But I did have this company that did okay. Not great. Here's what it did Here's what I learned And that's all informing me. And that's where I come from now. You've got someone talking about the, the, the thing that matters without pissing them off so much that they don't say anything else.And you feel like you feel superior as an interviewer. I got them. But in reality, you got nothing[00:46:57] Nathan:Right.[00:46:57] Andrew:Cares.[00:46:58] Nathan:I think that's a really hard line of talking about the things that are difficult and like the actual, maybe things that someone did wrong or lessons that they learned without just like barely dipping into it for a second. And I liked the format of tipping them off in like full transparency.So on this show, I had someone on who I really, really respect his name's Dickie Bush. He's one of the earlier episodes in this series and in it, he, okay. Yeah. So in that interview, one thing that I knew is that his, the first version of his course plagiarized text from another friend, Sean McCabe, actually Shaun's company edits is Podcast and all that.And I've known both of them for, for quite a while. I've known Sean for like, I dunno, six, seven years or something. And I was like, struggling with how to bring that up. And I wanted from the like founder, transparent journey, that sort of thing I wanted it brought up because I, I actually like, I'm happy to talk about like some pretty major things that I've screwed up and what I've learned from it.And I just think it makes a better conversation. And then from the interview side, I don't feel good, like doing an interview and not touching on that, but I didn't tip Dickey off to it. And I, that was one of the things that I've regretted that he gave a great answer. He talked about the lessons that he learned from it.It was really, really good, but I felt bad that I didn't set him up for the most success in like in setting up. And part of that, part of it is because even at the start of the interview, I was still wrestling with now, I'm not going to bring that up that, ah, maybe I should, it wouldn't be an authentic interview if I didn't like wrestling with that, I hadn't figured out my own, like made my own decision until we were in the middle of it.And so I didn't, I didn't set anybody up for success. And so it's an interesting line.[00:48:52] Andrew:It happens. And it seems like I'm now in the point of your transcript, where you, where you ask him, it's a 31 minutes into the interview. I think his response is great. He came in and he took responsibility for it. He says, yeah, that, that, that was a dramatic mistake, or a drastic mistake on my side and caught up in it.He wasn't the most articulate here and he'd repeated words. Like I, I, a couple of times, so I could see that he probably was uncomfortable with it. but I think his answer was great. I think, I believe that we all are broadcasting out, whether we know it or not, our intentions and where we're coming from, as some people are really good at faking it.And so I'm not going to talk about the outliers and some people are so uncomfortable that they're messing up the transmission, but for the most part almost. broadcasting our intentions. If you walk into that, Nathan, with the, I got to get him because he, he got one of my friends and I need him to finally get his comeuppance.He's going to pick up on that. And truthfully, it's such a small thing for a person like you who's, who's already a likable person. You have a lot to offer people, right? As far as like promotion and everything else, it will be forgiven, but it'll be picked up on, it's also something that people could pick up on, which is Nathan really want to know this thing.It's been bothering him for a while. And if you could, just, before you asked the question, say, where am I coming from with this? And know that the audience will mostly pick up on it. And obviously people are gonna like read in whatever they feel like, but trust that the vast majority of us understand, I think it'll work[00:50:21] Nathan:Yeah,[00:50:22] Andrew:You don't have to even tip. You don't have to tip off, but it does help. It, it definitely helps.[00:50:26] Nathan:It's interesting. I was watching an interview with, Jordan Peterson who wrote 12 rules for life. He's like a very controversial figure. And I was just often these controversies pass by, on Twitter and other places. And I realized like, oh, I don't understand them. And rather than jumping on one side or the other, at least try to like dive in a little bit and understand it.So watching this interview, and I can't remember, I think it was some major Canadian TV show or something, and that you would tell the interview was just trying to nail him it every possible chance, like whatever he said, just like dive in. And, so I think you're right, that you see the intention, like in that case, you would see the, the interview, his intention was specifically to try to trip him up in his words.And then in other cases where it's like, This is something that, you know, if you take the other approach, this is something that's been bothering me, or I want to talk about it. Like I genuinely want, you know, to ask or learn from this. It's a very different thing.[00:51:20] Andrew:I think people pick up on it. I remember you, you mentioned Seth Godin. I remember interviewing him when he wrote the book tribes back before people had online communities. And I didn't just say, okay. All our heroes, all the best entrepreneurs just run their businesses. Then don't run a tribe. I brought out books.I said, here's a book about Warren buffet. Here's the book by Sam Walton. The Walmart here's a book by Ted Turner became a multi-billionaire to creating all these, these media empires didn't have communities. They don't have tribes. And now you're telling me that in addition to my job, I also have to go and build out a tribe.It feels like, you know, an extra job. That just seems right for the social first. This just sounds right on social media and you could actually see. He's watching me as I'm saying it, and he's smiling, he's watching it because he's trying to read me, is this like what I get wrapped up? Is this going to be some kind of thing where some guy's going to try to be in the next Gawker media?Or is, is this a safe place? We're all doing that constantly. And then he also saw, okay, this is someone who really wants to understand this. And he's challenging me. I like a challenge. And you could see him smile with like, this is what I'm here for. And so I think when you come at it from a good point of view, people can see it and then you can go there and you can go there and you can go there and it will be shocking to you and them and the audience, how far you go. But when you're coming from that genuine place, they get, they get it.They want it.[00:52:44] Nathan:Yeah, that's good.I want to talk about longevity in like the online world. I think that so many people that I started following in say 2007, 2008, nine, and then I didn't start creating myself until 2011. most of them aren't around anymore. Like a lot of the big blogs, Yeah, just so many that I can think of.They're not around anymore. They're not doing this. You're at a point where like you started messaging in some form in what? 20, sorry, 2004 to somewhere in there and then interviews.[00:53:17] Andrew:Yeah, I keep saying 16. It's like, yeah. 2004 is when I started the interview started 2007 ish somewhere there. Give or take a year. yeah, long. I, I will say that there are parts of my work that I am burned out on right now. This year has been that, but I'm not on the interview. And the reason I'm not is because I do enjoy conversations.I hated them for a long time in my life because I just didn't know how to have them, how to have it make sense. I also didn't give myself permission to take the conversation where I wanted it to go. And it helps now to say, I can talk to anyone about anything. That's an opportunity that, that feels fun because I know how to do it.It's an opportunity to, it feels like, like, you know how everyone's so happy. You can go to YouTube and you could get the answer to anything. Well, I could go to anybody and I could get the answer to anything and talk about how they didn't have a customized to me, YouTube, not customized thing to me, I'm watching Gotham chess on YouTube.He's teaching me how to play chess, but he will not customize to the fact that every time I get into a car con defense, all the pieces like bunched over to my side. But if he and I did an interview, or if I do an interview with an tomorrow's entrepreneur, it's going to be about, here's the thing I'm trying to deal with.How did you get past that? Talk to me about what you're up to there.[00:54:31] Nathan:Yeah, that's definitely energizing. Okay. But what are the things that you're burnt out on? Because I think a lot of people are seeing that burnout. And so I guess first, what are you burned out on? And then second, we can go from there into like, what are you changing and how are you managing.[00:54:46] Andrew:I'm burned out on parts of the business behind, behind Mixergy I'm burned out on. I was aspiring to like unbelievable greatness with the, with the course part of it, with the courses, it didn't get there and I'm tired of trying to make it into this thing. That's going to be super big. I'm tired of that.[00:55:10] Nathan:His greatness there, like linda.com? Like what, what was that?[00:55:15] Andrew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. She was one of my first interviewees and, and so yeah, I saw the model there and I am frustrated that I didn't get to that and I, I don't have a beat myself up type a perso

In this episode, we cover: 00:00:00 - Reflections on the Episode 00:03:15 - What is Mortgage Servicing 00:13:20 - Impact of the Great Financial Crisis  00:18:40 - Andrew's Background 00:24:10 - Valon's Technological Innovations  00:31:06 - Relationship with the Consumer  00:36:00 - Regulations and Regulators  00:40:40 - Valon's Future/Outro Links:Website: Valon TranscriptJason: Welcome to the Perfectly Boring podcast. Today we have Andrew Wang, CEO of Valon, on the show, and today we're taking on the topic of mortgage servicing. So quickly, what is mortgage servicing?Well, a mortgage is obviously a loan for a home. And mortgage servicing is the institutions that actually take care of paying off that loan over the 10-, 20-, 30-year timeline. So, that digital interface where you pay your bill, et cetera, that is not always your originating bank. And Andrew is building a fascinating business in this space. We learned a lot about the mortgage, the evolution of the mortgage servicing space over time, the impact of the great financial crisis, and the interesting approach Valon is taken, not only just with technology, but changing the relationship with the end customer. So, what were some of the interesting touch points that we got during the conversation, Will?Will: It was a really wild discussion because I started with a fairly preliminary understanding of what mortgage servicing was. And in part of the wind up that listeners are going to get an opportunity to hear, Andrew really gives us a perspective as to how critical mortgage servicing is to the underlying health of the US, and therefore global, economy, and how much of an afterthought mortgage servicing has historically been, and why that should not necessarily be the case, and why now is the, sort of, unique moment in time to be able to use advanced technology and a reorganization of the overall stack for mortgage servicing to bring a better product to market for both consumers, for originators, for investors, and for regulators. And so, I mean, really badass discussion, really cool company, a space most people never think about, definitely a boring space, but with a just immense amount of value to be created.Jason: Yeah, and hopefully our listeners go through kind of the same increase in excitement that I had during the conversation, which is you kind of over time just realize this entire industry of mortgage servicing, not only is it critical, but how much they're missing the actual point which is, if you really just focus on the homeowner and creating a great experience for them, this is a huge relationship, it's a multi-decade relationship, and there's probably not just one product you can offer them. But they're stuck in the staid and stodgy technology of yore, and haven't been able to move as quickly and break through to open that aperture and open that relationship with their customer. So, before we get too deep into the weeds, let's just jump into the interview. Here's Andrew.Will: Andrew Wang, founder and CEO of Valon, thank you for being on the podcast with us today to talk about the very boring, very large industry of mortgage servicing. For the benefit of our listeners, it would be good to start at a really high level and give people kind of a baseline for what mortgage servicing is, and maybe a little just on the history of the mortgage servicing industry, you know, before we dive in a little bit on the specifics of your background and Valon.Andrew: So, mortgage servicing is a sort of pervasive thing that exists throughout the mortgage ecosystem and in the lives of most American homeowners, but it is also just not very well understood in terms of the dynamics that are involved with mortgage servicing in terms of who's involved, how they're involved, and exactly what they do. But again, nonetheless, it's something where it's within every part of the mortgage ecosystem today. But to give you some background on mortgages and how mortgage servicing even is a real thing, let me first talk about the mortgage industry as a whole. When you think about the mortgage industry, it's obviously a very large component of the American economy today. When people look at it, they say, “Hey, 20% of GDP in terms of housing,” something that the US government often uses in order to boost spending; they lower our mortgage rates in order to cause people to have more savings and then spend on other things. It's just a very, very core piece of the American ecosystem.But it actually came into play really, during the depression, the Great Depression, were effectively pre the Great Depression, mortgages weren't really regulated all that much, and as a result, there were kind of weird, funky structures, even crazier than what people saw in 2007. And as a result of that and as a result of all these people who weren't able to pay their mortgages due to these balloon loans being in place, which are basically loans that don't amortize, and basically become due and payable at a certain point in time, what the US government did as a function of the New Deal was put these government institutions into place to create more affordable housing structures, to create these institutions who would really regulate the housing market, or really add liquidity into the housing market so Americans could actually own a home.Will: And that kicked off the current, almost philosophical ideal that we have today about homeownership kind of being the epitome of the American dream. This was—the mortgage was almost an invention to bring that to fruition after World War Two?Andrew: That's exactly right. So, after World War Two, it became more and more core to the American dream. When everybody talks about, “Hey, what is the American dream?” It's obviously being able to get further in life based on your own merits, it's about owning a home, and starting a family, building a community, all of those different things, and the home is just so central to that dream. But exactly to your point, it started from post-World War Two.By the 1990s, it became such a large component of how the US economy even functioned and worked that there was more and more so this focus on affordable housing, putting people in homes, putting people in sort of a structure that creates the ability, creates stronger communities, and create a more robust ecosystem within cities, within neighborhoods, and everything else. So, that's how mortgages became so intertwined in the American system versus, you know, other countries, which may have relatively high homeownership rates, but just not nearly as high as the United States. That's, like, the genesis of how mortgages became a big component of it. The mortgage servicing aspect of it actually wasn't as relevant of a thing, that became more of a thing, actually, after the great financial crisis, the GFC. So pre-2008, what ended up happening was actually that most people when they got a mortgage were serviced by the same people who gave them that mortgage. So, you had Countrywide, you had some of these older institutions which have since gone bankrupt or have been acquired by more older financial institutions, servicing the mortgages. So, it wasn't really a separate thing, for the most part, at that point in time, and it wasn't really an important topic, actually.Jason: Before we go too deep, maybe you can define servicing. Like, how does that show up in the average American's life? What is servicing when it comes to an individual?Andrew: So, mortgage servicing specifically is what happens right after you get a new mortgage. So, when you get a new mortgage, you go to your originator. It can be someone who works at a bank, it could be mortgage broker that is a family friend of yours, it could be someone on Main Street who has a sign out that says, “I'm a mortgage lender. Come inquire about rates.” Once you get that mortgage from them, you have to make the payments back because you've got the mortgage to buy your home.That entire process of making those payments and the institution that you make those payments towards, that is the mortgage servicer. Now, when you look at that very simply, that is similar to a debt collection agency where you're effectively making payments, they're collecting on the debt and they're making those payments back to the person who made that mortgage. Now, what's actually more complex about mortgage servicing, as opposed to normal general debt collection is the fact that one, there's a lot of more regulation associated with it, right, because there is a home involved, and there's a lot of regulation around how you deal with homes; there's a second component which is, as per the government agencies and as per many state regulatory agencies, you are considered the trusted financial advisor to the homeowner along the homeownership journey. So, when a homeowner says, “Hey, I'm unable to make a payment; I need some help,” the mortgage servicer isn't allowed to just say, “I don't care. Deal with it,” they're often required to go through all these interactive processes to make sure that the homeowner can actually get the right solution and continue owning their home.Long story short, just jumping quickly back to what we were just talking about, it's really core, and part of the thesis, really, of the American economy that they want to keep people in homes, they want to keep people getting homes, increase the homeownership rate, make it part of the American dream. So, what they did was they made mortgage servicers responsible for keeping people in homes.Jason: Gotcha. And this was on the back of the great financial crisis?Andrew: Correct. Actually, it was there before but what I was trying to really get into was that pre the great financial crisis, it wasn't as really hot of a topic because homes were honestly increasing prices all the time; anyone who bought a home basically made money on their home, so just not really a big worry throughout the entire ecosystem. So, when people thought about mortgage servicing back then, it existed but it wasn't really a concern. It wasn't a focus of both regulators, politicians, really anyone in the entire ecosystem. But when the great financial crisis happened, what ended up happening was, well, people weren't able to get out of their homes, they weren't able to pay for their homes, their homes were less valuable than the mortgage that they took out.And as I mentioned just right now, the mortgage servicing process is actually also the process of helping the homeowner stay in that home. And that's why home mortgage servicing became such a large topic and became such a large focus because post the great financial crisis, it became all about making sure that people who took out these mortgages were able to put themselves in a position where they were able to keep their homes. Obviously, there was a lot of difficulty with respect to it. Obviously, there were a lot of people who were unable to actually pay for their mortgages on an ongoing basis, so there were a lot of what's called modifications, basically changes to the underlying mortgage in order to make it affordable. But that entire ecosystem really exploded both from a regulatory scrutiny perspective, from the amount of activity that was happening in it because of the great financial crisis.Jason: So Andrew, why does mortgage servicing even exist to begin with?Andrew: Yeah. So, this is one of those really long archaic, sort of, pieces of knowledge that people have to understand the ecosystem, understand the history, understand all the different dynamics before they end up realizing why it's even a piece of the entire pie. And if you look at other countries out there, like Great Britain, Asian countries where there's tons of mortgages, as well—China, Japan—but mortgage servicing as a separate concept, it's just not really a thing. So, it's really, for the United States, a concept that is tied to Fannie, Freddie, FHA, VA—which are basically Ginnie—these government institutions. So, the long story short, but still very long story, is that when the government put these different institutions in place, they created a concept where basically the underlying person who they wanted to interact with the mortgage was still the originator.So, I make a mortgage, my business isn't to hold this mortgage because the government wants to buy the mortgage and make it more liquid, and therefore more people can make mortgages, and therefore the cost of a mortgage is lower, but I still want you to be the person who interacts with the homeowner. So, I want to split this concept out. I'm going to own the mortgage, you're going to service the mortgage. And let's stick with that for now. So, that was, like, phase one of it.Then phase two of it was the fact that well, if that's going to happen, then every single person who makes a mortgage needs to be able to service the mortgage, so that's not fair to mom and pop shops across Main Street. If I originate whatever, 10, 20, 50, 100 mortgages a month, I'm not going to be at a place or a scale where I can run a true mortgage servicing operation. It just doesn't work. So, how am I going to deal with it? So, the government, again, to try to incentivize mortgage lending to incentivize liquidity in the space, said, “Fine. You can sell that servicing to another guy who then will deal with the relationship.”And boom, thus mortgage servicing is born, the idea of mortgage servicing is born, and this entire ecosystem then diverges. And really, not just diverges, it converges really to an efficient model of saying who is the best at mortgage servicing? Who are these cheap cost providers who are in the Midwest, who do it poorly, but thus can pay the highest price for mortgage servicing, and thus that's where all of the capital and all of the assets, sort of, flow? And that's why we live in the world we live in.Will: So, servicing is kind of an afterthought for the majority of the existence of a mortgage industry at large. Until, '08, '09. In '08, '09, everybody starts fixating on the servicing process as what it should always have been looked at, which is this really critical interface between the borrower and the lender, to a degree. And as a part of all of the regulation and the ongoing focus on servicing during that period of time, as we almost reworked the entire housing market, the cost to serve as a mortgage also changed a lot. Maybe you could just touch on that because there are a lot of compliance and regulatory framework aimed at servicing actually dramatically increased the complexity of doing servicing, which I think had a pretty profound impact on the cost to do so, right?Andrew: Yep. So, to elaborate further on these points that you're mentioning, the mortgage servicing ecosystem was really underdeveloped, both from one technology perspective as well as an understanding perspective, pre-2008. Again, people were not really afraid of being able to pay mortgages because naturally whenever you couldn't, you just sold your home and you probably made money on it. So, it's debatable as to whether or not [unintelligible 00:14:48] people are fully compliant back then whether the cost of servicing would be higher, but nonetheless, it is based on the data that people can see in the financials of mortgage servicing companies. Mortgage servicing became extremely expensive and really double, tripled in costs post-2008.And the way that it played out was basically the great financial crisis happened; people were unable to pay their mortgages; the traditional way would be to just put people out of homes, and as I mentioned earlier, the government's very incentivized to keep people in homes. And in order to make sure that the servicers were doing the right things, they basically put a bunch of different regulations both on the federal level and the state level to ensure that mortgage servicers were following the right processes in order to determine whether or not someone could make a payment for the mortgage, make sure that they're offered the right plans, and to make sure they were provided the right disclosures before they actually got through a process of foreclosing. So, when they put these regulations in place, normally you would think, “Well, these things can be somewhat automated. These things can be provided as part of the process.” But as I mentioned because it was so under-focused, there was just really not that much technology in the space, really not that many technological providers even involved in the industry.There's one main one, named Black Knight. So, when this all happened, these servicers went to Black Knight and basically asked them, “Hey, well, we are running into these issues. Can you help us?” And the answer was, quite frankly, “We will try, but we can't really guarantee all that much to you because there's a lot of changes, there's a lot of code that needs to change, and we just can't get it all done that quickly.” So, the only way that the mortgage servicers could handle these different regulatory requirements was basically to put people in place.You basically replaced what you would like to use, or what like to get done with technology, with people. So, you basically have this explosion of people cost in the number of people required to service a mortgage, and basically got to a place where today, there's two to three times as many people who need to be involved in a mortgage, versus pre-2008.Jason: What does the actual structure and distribution of mortgage servicers look like today, and how has that changed since the great financial crisis?Andrew: It's one of the things that honestly, the government focuses a lot on. There's a term, which is systematically relevant of financial institutions. So pre-2008, like I mentioned, there wasn't really that much of a concept of mortgage servicing. There were mortgage servicers out there, but most of the servicing was still held by the originators who made the mortgages. So, as a function of that, the ownership and really the people or entities that were servicing the mortgages was distributed quite similarly to the origination volumes.The guys who made the mortgages were the guys who serviced the mortgages, and as a result, there was a good split between bank who were very involved in mortgage space, as well as non-bank entities became more relevant, you know, probably post-2005. Today, we've gone into a world that is more and more non-bank-oriented, meaning the regulations have stepped up to such a dramatic degree that the underlying institutions who were originally involved had really substantially changed. I'll give you some simple examples. CitiMortgage, one of the largest originators previously, still a very large originator probably top five, now no longer services its own mortgages. It's completely outsourced—I think as of 2017—all of their mortgage servicing to Cenlar.Similarly, US Bank is no longer servicing their mortgages. The folks at JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon has, you know, publicly stated that they want to get out of this business and they've been working with other sub-servicers to slowly migrate to a place where they're not servicing their mortgages anymore. So today, you are in a world now, where it's basically 70% non-bank dominated versus pre-2008, we were in a world that was probably 70% bank dominated.Jason: You're painted a really stark picture of an increasingly disjointed, highly regulated, under-digitized, mortgage servicing market. This sets the table really well, I'm sure, to start to talk about how you're changing those dynamics with Valon. But before we dive into the company, maybe you can give us a bit of background as to how you personally got involved with mortgage servicing to begin with.Andrew: I like to coin—or use the term that I am an accidental operator because my background is actually on the investment side. I started out, really, in my career focusing on investing in some of these legacy mortgages. So, my first job out of college was working at Goldman. I was on what's called the short-term products [unintelligible 00:19:24], did some stuff with mortgages, I did some stuff with aircraft, but I quickly moved over to a Soros Fund Management where my primary job was actually to look at mortgages. So, I started out actually looking at the legacy, what's called non-agency residential mortgage-backed securities, and looking at the data underneath and seeing what was going on with these mortgages.Naturally, as with much of the market, we went from buying these securities to a place where we started buying the underlying home loans, the actual mortgages as opposed to the securities that you can buy on an exchange. And as a function of that, I ended up having to work with the servicers because when you buy the whole loan, unlike a security where everything's packaged up for you, you don't have to think about the accounting, the servicing, whatever else, when you buy the whole loan, you have to go find the guy who's selling the whole loan, you got to understand what he's doing, so he's not selling us stuff that you didn't want to buy, he's running the processes the right way, and you also have to go work with the servicer to actually get the servicing to happen, because it's a licensed activity. So unsurprisingly, the way I got about it was I started calling all my friends who had owned whole-loan portfolios before, and I asked them, “Who do you guys work with? Who should I be talking to you?” And the answer was, very simply, “They all suck.” Like, nobody likes your servicer.Now, you would think that would be an answer purely from one perspective, one angle like it'd be the perspective of an investor, maybe they charge too much. But it turns out it's because they aren't liked by the consumer, extremely low NPS scores of on average about 16; they aren't liked by their investors, they're extremely commoditized and extremely poor customer service, and they're most certainly not liked by the regulators who just keep fining them over and over again. You search mortgage servicing [unintelligible 00:21:07], you basically have, like, thousands of pages about this. And it's still even happening today. And it's not even entities that, you know, are foreign and pretty small and not understood; it's even large institutions like Citibank which is—like I said—why they got out of mortgage servicing.So naturally, my view on it was, well, this seems like something that technology can solve. This is something that we should be able to do better. This seemed insane that in the 21st century, that we're still dealing with this type of stuff. But as you start to dig in more and you start to pry into the actual underlying business, you start to understand both the complexities from an execution perspective and the actual underlying technological challenges. So, I ended up trying to find a couple of venture companies to invest in to go do this, but I actually couldn't find anyone who had the right idea, the right setup, the right vision in terms of how to build this company.So, you know, I went about my way, kind of left this on the side, and focused on other things at the time. But actually came back to it when I started looking at mortgage servicing rights which, at the time, I didn't understand nearly as well because I bought what are called whole loan mortgages, this entire mortgage. Mortgage servicing rights are basically the contractual relationship between the person who owns the right to service the mortgage—like I said, to collect, to interact, to really deal with the data of the mortgage borrower—and the person who actually services the mortgage. So, it's the contractual right that allows you to sub-service a mortgage out. What's interesting about that is that is basically a way to own that relationship and contract that relationship long-term.And for me, as someone who had started looking more and more into FinTech, the way I sort of saw it was, here is a way and here is an asset class, and here's a space that actually allows the mortgage servicer to own these relationships and do have these long, sticky monthly engagement type relationships that they can have over 7, 10, 30 years. And that's a very unique thing to have. More importantly and most interestingly, it's in a situation where actually in this ecosystem, people pay you to own that relationship, people pay you monthly fees to say, “Hey, actually work with the borrower. Hey, actually interact with them, help them find what they need, whatever else, and we'll pay to do it, and you're allowed to market additional things to them.” So, to me, that seems like such an interesting situation because not only can you have a business that is built to really improve the margins of the business and build automation around it, but you have this sticky relationship with the homeowner that you can really use to build trust, and really sell future financial products to.And that just seems like a very interesting business in my mind. So ultimately, I decided, hey, investing is interesting but this seems like too big of an opportunity to give up. So, I decided I wanted to go start a business, and this was the business I started, you know, right after.Jason: And one of the most interesting things to me is that it's not just a software component, right? Because you had looked at a number of other software providers and decided to do something a little bit more full-stack, which we don't typically see in the venture space. People tend to just want the software component and tend to steer clear of the services component. Maybe you can talk a little bit about why you still decided to include services as a part of what Valon offers.Andrew: There's an understanding amongst most venture investors that you want to be in the software business because it has a high margin business, it's defensible business, and it's less subject to changes in terms of margin profile because of the large amount of margin you have. Which, you know, is understandable. And that's ultimately actually where we thought we were going to get to, until we dug into and, sort of, operating this business, the actual origin of starting a mortgage servicing company as opposed to just the technology company was the fact that we realized that existing players were hamstrung by their current software in such a crazy degree that they weren't even able to migrate off of their existing systems to a new system. It's also a super-regulated space so anybody who wants to do it, wanted or needed to see clear performance, clear audits, really regulatory buy-in before they even made those things. So, it actually started out originally as an execution [ploy 00:25:31] where we said, “Well, we can execute faster, we can learn faster, we can dogfood our own product so much faster, and come back to people later on once we've been able to show these numbers.”But as we started doing this business more and more, we began to further understand that there's actually a really, really great opportunity running the mortgage servicer because you have that direct customer relationship. And that's such a valuable thing because even if we had automated all of the backend processes and even if we were focused on just making these margins more efficient, it's not really fundamentally changing how the borrower perceives it. It's changing the financial profile of these businesses. And additionally, a lot of the things that we wanted to do was build trust, and that's a front-facing thing; that's something that you need to be invested in as a business, which a lot of the existing mortgage servicers didn't have that perspective and that view. So, for us, it became more and more of a consumer story versus an enterprise SaaS story where we can say, “Hey, not only can we get this cash flow machine by doing servicing well and build really good software around it, but we can really build a great partnership with the homeowners that are being serviced by us and really build longer-term relationships with them.” So, that's where I think the turning point change from, “Hey, we're doing this out of necessity,” to, “Hey, we're doing this because we think it's the best thing we can be doing for people.”Jason: I love also that because the existing system isn't able to migrate off, their slow and outdated solutions and they're a highly fragmented space, it's effectively a commodity; you can come in, build a whole new tech stack, still put humans against the problem, but undercut on price. But you kind of used that extra cost as a way to broker a relationship directly with the consumer and offer a more expansive and holistic product over decades, which is a fascinating inversion of what the traditional mortgage servicing mantra and MO is. Maybe you can talk to us about how you actually convinced the originators and loan purchasers, mortgage purchasers, to trust you and your new small startup to actually service those loans? Because it feels like a difficult business to really get your foot in the door and get those initial loans through the platform so that you can build that trust with the originators and the loan owners as well.Andrew: To your exact point, it's a business that's extremely difficult to get into, [again 00:27:52], a lot of regulatory scrutiny, there's a lot of requirements to get into the business. And just name a couple here, you need—generally speaking—all 50 states licensed for you to be a quote-unquote, “Scaled servicer.” You need to have what's called agency approval, Fannie and Freddie approval, to be able to service most mortgages in the United States. So, between those different aspects, it's really hard to even get the legal requirements to be involved in this business, let alone get commercial contracts.But the way we approached this was really two-fold. The first part of it is, we were fortunate going into this space knowing that the existing players were so bad and so commoditized that actually, people were willing to work with different servicers. I'll give you a really simple example here: there's a company out there that we partnered with, it was one of our big investors, it's called to NRZ, and they're one of the largest owners of these mortgage assets. They own, like, 7% of the entire market. They own their own servicer, it's called Shellpoint.But even as an owner of that servicer, they don't actually give all of their business to their own business. And that's because they're trying to keep them competitive, that's because they're trying to diversify their risks, but the very fact that they don't give all their business to the entity that they are most financially incentivized to work with gives you a little bit of insight into how everybody thinks about this space, which is, “I'm not married to my vendor. I'm going to work with anybody who seems to be better. And there's a lot of things that are lacking, so you can try to convince me in a variety of different perspectives.” Obviously, if you've increase the bar because you've improved everything, that will no longer be the case, but today as it stands, that's how the ecosystem works.The second part of it, which is we actually went into this knowing that if we need these portfolios, we don't want to just have to convince people, we want to guarantees. So, we actually made sure that the initial investors in this company, the people who would take the benefits and the fruits of the technology that we built are some of the largest players in the space. So, we actually got folks like for example, Soros, NRZ, Jefferies, and a couple of other guys later on, to invest in the company with the belief that, “Hey, if I give you some mortgages to service and you actually are able to improve these margins, our business will be that much better off for it.” In some sense, they view this as, “Hey, this is an outsourced R&D effort. We can't hire good enough technical talent internally; we'll give you guys that through an equity investment, and if you guys win, we also win.”If you think about it as an example, NRZ spends something like, eh, on order of a billion dollars a year on servicing fees. If we can truly save them 10% on it and give that back to them—and let's say we save more than that, but we're just getting ten—well, that's $100 million a year that they're saving. And the way that their investments, or really their fund is really valued, that's a billion dollars of value that was just created. So, that's what's so interesting about this space which is, you have these players who are very incentivized for our success and we just made sure that we went to them very early on and said, “Hey, we're going to get this done. This is a very low risk for you; we're going to ask for a small portfolio, but if you give it to us and we succeed, we can both be big winners at the end of the day.” It's really about incentive alignment.Will: Andrew, I think one of the more profound things that you brought up here is that you're being paid to have a direct relationship with a consumer, a home-owning consumer, and that historically, I think mortgage servicers were happy being collection agents and not thinking about the long-term relationship that they had with the consumer, thinking about themselves as a commodity. How do you think about the relationship that you have with a consumer over the arc of your relationship with them and the types of products and services that you can start to bolt onto that relationship?Andrew: This is a really crucial point for us as a business, which is fundamentally and philosophically different from preexisting and the incumbent mortgage servicers. So today, the way people view this industry is that they view the extraction of value from the consumer as how they are still in business, the way that they generate margin. Meaning if there's a way I can extract an extra dollar from the consumer, for example, if I charge them a fee for making a payment online or for convenience, that's how they are continuing to make profits. Which is a very foreign and crazy concept, obviously, for people who are in venture and tech, et cetera. We take the approach that we want everything that we can do to make the consumer happier.a happier customer and investment towards making their experience better is how we actually make money. Because if you remember, at the outset, we don't actually make money from the consumer directly; we make money from servicing mortgages. And to us, the most efficient way to service the mortgage is a borrower who wants to use our automated products, who trusts us, and who doesn't call us with a lot of difficult questions. So, to do that, you have to really make sure you do everything right for the consumer so they are willing to trust you with that large financial ticket item that is their home. Now, I'll give you a couple of cool examples as to what you can do if you're a mortgage servicer who's really focused this way.So, really simple example; today, a lot of homeowners actually don't even use autopay, and you get a variety of different explanations. One of the really good explanations is that many people actually have lumpy incomes, so they don't really know when they'll get paid. Now, they want to use autopay, but the problem is because they don't know when they'll actually get paid, they need to make sure that they're paying when there's money in their bank. They don't want NSF fees, they don't want overdraft fees. We can use integrations with folks like Plaid to check their bank account and make sure that they have enough funds in their bank account before we pull, basically guarantee to them that you'll never get these type of fees.Now, that increases the convenience for the homeowner and allows them to put themselves on autopay, reduces actually for us the amount of times we have a call to make sure that they remembered to pay, and then overall, it actually results in a situation where we save more money and thus we make more profits at the end of the day. That's a really, really simple example.Another deeper layer you could go for example would be to tell people, “Hey, instead of just paying your mortgage through bill pay or whatever else that you're using, why don't you set up autopay and when you set up autopay will take $1 every time you use autopay and we'll actually pay it towards the next delinquent borrower.” Meaning it's a charitable donation; we're taking money out of our pockets to pay a delinquent borrower. Now, that doesn't seem like a big impact when you just think about the dollar, but when you think about the percentage of people who are current, and then people all do this, we actually can generate enough money that we can donate to delinquent borrowers. It actually reduces our overall delinquency rate and therefore our overall costs as a mortgage servicing company. That's virtually unheard of.Lower delinquency rates look better for agencies, for regulators, for investors, and we can do in a way which really doesn't take any money out of our own pockets, it just reduces costs because we're servicing with a lower friction way, but actually generates a lot of goodwill with the homeowner. Which then leads us into the second part, which is, well, we can actually cause people to stay on our platform because as the servicer, we actually can offer them the lowest rate possible. If you look at a world that we service the mortgage as well as originate, we don't care that much about making money on originations because we own the consumer, we own that relationship. And we know everything about them; we also have most of the information, so it's easily preprocessable. Which means that we can go to the homeowner and say, “You know, you're usually going to try to refinance right now, but I'll give you the best rate because I have zero marketing costs, and I just want to keep working with you.”So, you don't even need to shop with everybody else because I'm going to preload it, I'm going to give you the best rate, and you're going to have a very smooth origination process and servicing process because nothing will move off. So, you get more and more into these type of conversations around, hey, because of our relationship, because of the trust we build, we can offer people more and more products that honestly make them happier, and ultimately that will drive them towards using us more longer-term, which is exactly what we want. And that's what we find so interesting about the mortgage servicing space because while it's not understood this way today, it is the perfect setup to be in a situation where you're really building a long-term financial platform, and the mortgage is that linchpin to getting into that consumers life and really trying to build that trust relationship with them long-term.Jason: I've got to imagine the regulators absolutely love what you're doing. I'm curious if you're thinking through feeding that data loop back into the regulators because I can't imagine the regulation has gone down since a great financial crisis. I'm curious what relationship you have with the government on this front.Andrew: So, our relationship is primarily with the agencies. When you think about regulators, there are regulators who are the state regulators—they manage their own department of financial services in each state—there's obviously the CFPB, and then there's Fannie and Freddie who are called regulators, but really they're investors by and really regulate the mortgage market through their buying of mortgages. But from Fannie and Freddie's perspective, yeah, this is—you hit the nail on the head; this is exactly what they want, this is what they've been seeking for. When you look up on Fanny's website, “Hey, what is a servicer?” They literally write, “Trusted financial advisor.” That's what they want.But nobody does it today, and there's not much that they can do about it. So, from their perspective, they love this outcome where the servicer is thinking about this; they love an outcome where if the homeowner gets a stay with their originator, they have that continuity of relationship; and then they lastly love the outcome where if we are providing this platform on a greater scale, they then don't have to worry as much about the volatility of earnings for originators because they have this blended financial profile. It basically turns in originator from a company that basically has highs and lows based on how much origination is happening to a customer relationship management company. And that is honestly where they want this stuff to go long-term.Jason: And do individual homeowners get any say in the decision on who gets to service their mortgage? Or is it entirely up to the originals?Andrew: Unfortunately, it's buried on page whatever—probably, like, ten—on your closing disclosure, and then later on your mortgage documents, you get put to whoever your mortgage originator wants you to be serviced by.Jason: So, the way you'll… [laugh] coming into a home near you will be through your success with the people who are originating the mortgages and paying for that mortgage servicing contract?Andrew: Today, that is the case, but in very short order, by the end of the year, you can get a Valon mortgage. And when you're with Valon, you stay with Valon. We won't sell your mortgage, we'll keep your mortgage on our platform, and we'll build that long-term trust-based relationship with you.Jason: Tell us more about that.Andrew: Yeah, so we—I mean, we would love for a world—and this is something, by the way, plenty of people have gripes about where they want to be able to have a mortgage that they transfer the servicing based on their own discretion, based on who they want to work with, but that's a longer-term conversation, that's a highly regulator-based conversation. So, it's something that's not going to happen tomorrow. The easiest way that we can become partners with people who actually want to work with Valon is that we offer them a highly competitive mortgage. Again, the fact of the matter is, we don't need to make money off of mortgage origination; we make money off of having the consumer stay with us. So, we'll be happy to offer them possibly the lowest rates that they can get.So, when they come to Valon, they can get their mortgage refinanced, or if they're getting a new mortgage, they can just get a mortgage from Valon, and then thereafter, they'll continue to stay with Valon. There'll be serviced by Valon, when rates drop, we'll just be proactive and we'll preempt any sort of refinance that they want to do. They can log onto our webpage, they can log onto their app, and they will exactly know how much they can refinance it for, what the costs are, all those different things. But again, the nice part here is because we don't really need to make money on originations, like a Quicken, like a [loanDepot 00:40:13], or any of these other players out there—even Better Mortgage—they know that we have an incentive just to keep them on a platform and we can offer that lowest rate. And we can do that. So, that's what's so unique about it which is, you get that relationship, you get that great service, but you also get really priced competitive results, which we believe ultimately will build longer-term trust.Jason: I mean, it's an amazing and powerful refocus where you've effectively created alignment with all the major players in such a way that's made it difficult for any other competitors to compete with you. It's a pretty [laugh] amazing approach to the market that you've developed here. What gets you most excited about the future? Like wh—you know, obviously, you've got origination coming up; you know, in five, ten years, if you're massively successful, what's the impact you've had on the US economy and the US mortgage space?Andrew: So, there's obviously elements where we're helping consumers, right, so we can reduce the delinquencies in the system, like I mentioned, through different mechanisms. We offer people really cheaper financial products, which we believe they deserve, but I think the long-term most impactful thing is that we can provide, really, researchers as well as government regulators the right tools to make the right decisions. When you think about what basically happened recently with COVID, now the government went about and offered everybody forbearance, which is extremely expensive for both players in the industry as well as the government, but they don't really have a good way to address the crisis at hand. So, they used the very blunt-edged solution to it. As the platform that hopefully ends up winning the market, we can provide that information to the government; we can provide that implementation to them.So, they can be much more, with a sharp knife and really a small pencil, start to draw exactly what they want to end up happening. So, instead of giving a forbearance for every single person—which is what happened; they said, “You didn't have to pay a mortgage for nine months, twelve months,” instead of giving a forbearance to every person out there, you could say, “Let me check your bank account. Let me see that you're actually running into a crisis. And if you are, actually I will give you even longer. I will give you 18 months, I will give you until you figure out what to do next.”And for the people who didn't actually have a crisis, we're not going to give it to you. So, you actually can help the right people in this sort of situation. Alternatively, you might have a situation where the government wants to test a different modification program. Usually, it gets into a large argument about does this work; does it not work? There's not much data out there.But with a technological platform like us, you can actually go as far as to say, let's actually A/B test these results. If the government buys-in will test it with [unintelligible 00:42:54] portfolios, and we'll report these results. So, this is kind of where we believe government policy and really, American policy around housing can be really shaped if you had the right system and the right sort of infrastructure. So, while we are very focused on trying to build that long-term vision and build out a trust relationship with homeowners across the United States, we believe the longer-term impacts of doing something like this really come from the fact that we can leverage this infrastructure to help so many different people.Will: Aside from going deeper in the value chain on the mortgage lifecycle, are their orthogonal products—I know before we jumped on the call, we were sort of talking about insurance a little bit—are there other orthogonal products that are correlated to homeowners that from a product standpoint that you see Valon being able to bolt on to the platform over time?Andrew: I think the big new products that we'll be focused on outside of insurance as an example that we talked about where offering property insurance is a very natural next step, which we're already going to look to do by the end of this year is actually getting into things like for example, credit card debt consolidation. So, it's a very well-known thing that people when they get credit card debt sometimes want to refinance it with a HELOC because it's cheaper to pay a HELOC than a credit card. Now, that's not a very simple process today because getting a HELOC is a painful thing because you have to work with the servicer or you have to work with a HELOC originator. So, making it really easy where someone who has credit card debt, move it quickly over to their HELOC and pay less interest is obviously a quick next step. But that really actually speaks a lot more towards long-term financial management because again, we are dealing with such a large purchase and a large component of their daily—their monthly cash flows.So, as we look to what we do going forward, there probably will be a lot more around financial literacy, financial advisory, around all these different components. And if we can build that trust really leading the homeowner to make these right decisions and being able to forecast for them different outcomes based on what they want to do. So, I'd say that's probably the direction we'll ultimately take with this business. We need some time to work on all the different sort of initiatives that we have, but we're really hopeful that we can really make a difference here.Will: Andrew, congratulations. This is an unbelievably badass business and a very, very boring, esoteric industry that you are transforming. We really, really appreciate you taking the time to hang with us today and to give our listeners a look inside the mortgage servicing industry.Andrew: I appreciate it. Thanks for letting me talk. I went on a very, very long rant.Will: Thank you for listening to Perfectly Boring. You can keep up the latest on the podcast at perfectlyboring.com, and follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you next time.

I burst into the Zoom with Andrew Janjigian—a writer and the baker behind the newsletter Wordloaf—as though he were an old friend, telling him about my drama with the dentist that was happening that day and explaining precisely how much I was already sweating despite the early hour of our interview. There are some people whose energy, even virtually, I just like and how I express this like is, frankly, by extravagantly complaining in the hopes of amusing the other person. This is all to say: Andrew is very smart and cool, and I was excited to talk to him.He has done so many things in his life, and it is all wildly impressive. He’s worked as an organic chemist, got a master’s in biology with a focus on fungi, and then ended up at America’s Test Kitchen, where he was the resident bread expert. That led, eventually, to Wordloaf, where he makes sourdough approachable. We discussed it all. Listen above, or read below.Alicia: Hi, Andrew, how are you?Andrew: I am very well. How are you?Alicia: I'm good. Thank you so much for being here.Andrew: Sure. It's great to be here.Alicia: Can you tell me about where you grew up and what you ate?Andrew: Sure. Ok. So, I grew up in a Boston suburb. And I live in Cambridge now, so basically in Boston. And what I ate was—I come from a big Armenian family, and Armenians are pretty serious about their food and their cooking. A gathering of any two or more Armenians is basically an excuse for a feast. And holidays and parties are sort of studies in excess. So there was a lot of food and a lot of cooking and recipes between my mother and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles. And so, I was exposed to kind of people who love to cook pretty early on. And beyond the Armenian stuff, my mother is a very good cook. And she was pretty adventurous, sort of, as interested in experimentation and research as anyone, and I think that's where I started having the same sort of tendencies. I grew up in the era where it was sort of where cooking shows were all on PBS, and Julia Child, if you didn't know how to cook and all those sorts of things. It was a time when food culture was just starting to become mainstream. And my mother was a part of that. I think that kind of sums it up. Boston was not particularly interesting in terms of food at the time. It's definitely improved since then.Alicia: [Laughs.] How has it improved? What's changed in Boston?Andrew: Well, I think it's mostly that the culture has grown to support the presence of just more interesting restaurants. I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of restaurants in, within cultural enclaves. But when I was growing up, you didn't know about them. There probably were fewer then, simply because there wasn't the support. But I think Boston is kind of a provincial place, or has been. And I think people are finally waking up to the, sort of the importance of foods from other cultures. And so, those restaurants are finally getting the due that they deserve. And so, it's definitely better. I mean, I lived in New York for a long time. And so I still kind of gripe about how much better it could be. [Laughter.]Alicia: Well, you've explained your career trajectory to me before when I've interviewed you. But can you explain how you ended up in food?Andrew: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I started out in it, and then came back to it. But the whole trajectory is really kind of convoluted. And I'm sort of somebody who has always had a lot of interests, and I kind of never do anything halfway. And so that sort of leads me to follow paths far away from one thing and come back to them. So I started out working in restaurants during—a little bit in high school, but in college in New York City as a way to have pocket money to pay the bills. And then in summers, where I was paying my own rent and things like that. I was a waiter working front of the house in a couple places. There was a chef at one particular restaurant who sort of took a liking to me and understood my interest in cooking. And he said, ‘Would you be interested in working in the kitchen?’ And he let me, kind of, with no—without real proof that I could do anything, to work garde manger. It was a small restaurant, and so I immediately just jumped in, do it. And then, never went back to waiting tables after that, because it was really much more my thing. And I did that for a few years and eventually worked my way up. For the longest time, I worked at a place in the West Village called the Universal Grill, which was a great place to work. It was a really tiny little restaurant. It was very unique in every way. It prided itself on, or at least thinking itself, as the gayest restaurant in New York City. Or the gayest restaurant in the world, I forget what their tagline was. But it was very a kind of a hub of a lot of gay cultural activity. And it was just a fun place to work, especially since the—while the food, it was important that the food be of a certain caliber, the owners didn't really want to have anything to do with that. So they left the few of us in the kitchen to our own devices to kind of come up with recipes and be creative. And it was small enough that if I was cooking, I was the only person—eventually I worked my way up to sous chef. And if I was there, I was in charge of the menu for the night. And so, it gave me a lot of creativity. That was kind of where I forged my skills. And then, I stayed in restaurants for a little bit longer after that. I moved back to Boston. But I kind of found sort of other interests pushing in against that one. And I eventually decided I want to go back to school. I had studied literature and film in college, and—but was, sort of caught the science bug. And so, I decided that I was going to be—I wanted to be a doctor. It seems kind of crazy now, I thought that. So I go back to school, do pre-med courses. I hadn’t particularly done any of those kinds of classes in college. And I started out in chemistry and found that I had this kind of acuity for it. I found it really interesting. And while I was doing some of these courses, I kind of talked my way into an internship at a pharmaceutical company here in Cambridge. And that internship ended up getting renewed several times. And eventually, it just became a full-time job. And I sort of dropped the pre-med idea in favor of just kind of becoming an organic chemist. Organic chemistry is basically cooking, at least in the practical aspects of it. It's just like cooking. You have a recipe, put a bunch of stuff in a container, you heat it up, and it transforms into something else. And I'd always been good at recipes and good cooking. So it's sort of like it was an easy shift for me.And I did that for 12 years, ’cause it was—working for a corporation, it paid well. And I enjoyed it most of the time. And then while I was there, I caught another bug and this was in the study of mycology and mushrooms. And one of the benefits of working there was that they paid for higher education. And so I was able to get a master's degree—or most of it, I didn't finish it until after I left there. But in biology, it was a study of fungi and in, called mushroom cultivation and foraging and things like that. That's where I was when, just by coincidence. I met somebody, a friend of a partner of my brother-in-law who worked at America's Test Kitchen and shared my crazy resume, my story of how I—what I'd done all these years. And they go, ‘You'd be the perfect candidate for a job at America's Test Kitchen.’ They love people with all those kinds of backgrounds, and also the sort of skill set was perfect for it. So I applied and I took a massive pay cut. And the rest is history. And I was there for about the same, about 11 years, up until last year.Alicia: When did bread become the focus?Andrew: So it's funny because I was thinking about this in—I worked in two bakeries in high school, and it didn't register as a thing that I was at all interested in. And during college, I went—I spent a semester in Paris. I'm sure I ate lots of good bread. But somehow, the idea that I was surrounded by all these amazing bakeries just never, never even occurred to me to think about it. While I was there, I was kind of more interested in spending time in movie theaters and art museums. And so, I didn't come to bread until very late in the game. And the thing that kind of sparked that was probably—this is probably true for many people—was the no-knead bread. I think I made it right after the article came out in ’09. It both kind of sparked the idea that good bread can be had at home, and that actually, maybe, at home, homemade bread is better than you can get, at least from bakeries at the time. Or just the fact that you're pulling it hot from the oven yourself means you're getting it at the peak of its freshness. I quickly was like, ‘Oh, I think I need to dig into this more deeply.’ The fundamentals, the foundation had been there all along. Because the thing that I, that brought me to cooking in the first place when I was a kid, before I started working in restaurants, was pizza; I was obsessed with pizza. I think the first cookbook and kitchen tool I ever personally owned was a pizza pan and a book that my mother gave me as a birthday present. And so, that had been something that all throughout my life since that moment, I've been tinkering with my own recipes. And Cook's Illustrated started in ’93. So that was as I was—during college. I think I subscribed to it from the beginning at that point. And so, I understood that iterative testing process for recipe development. And I did a lot of that with my pizza recipe over the years. And so, I sort of laid the groundwork for where I ended up. After no-knead bread, I started digging into recipes and taking classes. And that was really where I kind of fell hard for it. But yeah, that—Sorry, go on.Alicia: No, no.But yeah, how did you come to your kind of current approach to it? Andrew: Well, so there's a lot of aspects to it. I think that no-knead bread itself is something I came to realize is just, I don't know. It's weird to find something so basic that you didn't realize you could be in love with when you ate it all the time. And maybe it's just because I never had good bread, but I'm sure I did. But there's so many things about it that I love about it it's hard to even narrow it down. I think one of them is simply that bread bakers are kind of, they're really great people. The people who work in the industry and the teachers I've had, they're just really—they're really generous and they're fun to be around. And so when I was a student of it, at the beginning of my time, I just was like, ‘Oh, these are my people’ in a way. And their passion for it kind of quickly became my own. But in terms of the bread itself, and what—one of the many things I love about it, one of them is just like that it's, unlike any other kind of cooking, it's a relationship. It's a dynamic thing that is never complete. You never perfect a technique. Sometimes it works amazingly, and sometimes it doesn't. And you have to kind of constantly bring yourself back to the-I mean, it's a living organism. And if you're not paying close attention to it, if you're not kind of adjusting to it, then it kind of resists being what you want it to be. And so, you need to kind of bring yourself down to its level—up to its level, I should say.I do a lot of overnight recipes, in the fridge overnight or on the counter. Every time I come downstairs from my bedroom and see what's happening in the kitchen, it's a little mini Christmas morning. I'm so excited to see what I, what it's managed to do for me in the interim. So there's just a lot of little joys in it. Yeah.Alicia: And you left your longtime post at America's Test Kitchen to focus on your newsletter as well as freelance. And you recently wrote about competing recipe style guides, which I thought was really interesting, because—for myriad reasons. One, that I develop recipes. Two, that I was a copy editor.How has that transition been for you into working for so many different places plus yourself? Because I know that it is very difficult. [Laughs.]Andrew: Yeah, that's been one of the many challenges of doing this, all solo. As I said, I came to America’s Test Kitchen as a cook and a science person, and not as a journalist. I had no training in journalism. And so, the style guide wasn't even something—I mean, I'm sure I had MLA or whatever in college, but I didn't know that it was a thing. And so when I learned how America's Test Kitchen did their thing, I didn't think, ‘Oh, that's their style guide.’ I just thought that's how everybody does it. And I absorbed that over time. But then after leaving, I realized, ‘Oh, this isn't how everybody is doing it. It’s just one idiosyncratic approach to it. And other places do it differently.’ And that makes sense. Every place has a different kind of needs and a different audience to cater to. But it's maddening to have to—it’s like having to speak a different language every time you do, pick up the phone to speak to somebody else. And it's really hard to adjust. But it is what it is. I wish we could have like an International Congress of Recipe’s style guides and just kind of come up with one thing. Yeah. Alicia: No, it's funny, because I wrote about salt today and how I'm going to try and not use Diamond Crystal anymore. It was so funny.Andrew: The Cargill thing?Alicia: The Cargill thing [laughs], where I found out that it's owned by Cargill since 1997. I had like literally no idea. That's never the point of anything anyone's talking about when they're talking about salt and which one to use. It's always about what's accessible and the volume, and  it's never—I also want this standard recipe conference, because I want the salt issue to be resolved. Because The L.A. Times is like, ‘Ok, we're only going to use Diamond Crystal.’ And then The Washington Post is like, ‘We're only going to use fine sea salt.’ But how many salts do you expect a regular person to have in their kitchen? I don't know, and I think it needs to be resolved. I'm just really horrified that people have always been like, ‘Diamond Crystal is the best’ and no one's ever said that they're owned by Cargill.Andrew: Yeah, that was news to me until I think you probably retweeted somebody a couple of days ago, and it never occurred to me. I mean, somebody down to make a bespoke salt that had the exact same weight to volume ratio and is as, just as good in terms of the way it sprinkles or whatever? And then we can stop using it. I was a kosher salt, Diamond kosher salt person until maybe that also sort of swayed me in the other direction. But I do think that it's annoying as hell that kosher salt comes in these two different volume to weight ratios. And I think I'm now in the sea salt’s better camp because sea salt is sea salt is sea salt.  Alicia: Exactly. Yeah, no, apparently there's a Norwegian kosher salt that is the same as Diamond Crystal. You're not getting a 10-pound, 5-pound box of it. So that's the issue here, is how much—yeah, how much you're getting, how much bang for your buck, which I guess is why Diamond Crystal really owned the game for so long. [Laughs.] And continues to! I don't think I'm going to change the way chefs act. But at least I can let people, more people know that Cargill owns this and to make their own choices now. Andrew: Yeah.Well, the other thing is that's kind of a very niche question, but like the bigger question’s metric versus imperial and weight to volume and baking recipes and that stuff is just maddening. So you asked about my own style and what that was like. I feel like a style guide should always be logical and clear. It should also teach people something. To give people options is to not encourage them to pick one over the other. And so I decided I'm getting rid of volume measurements, because I think it forces people to do something that eventually they'll come to see is easier.Alicia: Right. No, and I agree. I hate volume recipes. I mean, the only thing for me is that, to keep batteries in my scale. [Laughs.] It's remembering whether it's double A or triple A when I go to the store. That's my struggle. But I wanted to ask how you're maintaining creativity and balance between the work you're doing for other people and for your newsletter, because people ask me all the time. And for me, I think it's kind of obvious, most of the time, what's for the newsletter and what isn't. Speaking, again, of the salt piece, I know how I could expand the salt piece and make it really a lot better and 3000 words and a lot more effecting, but I'm not going to do that for my weekly blog. But, yeah, so basically, how do you balance those things that you're doing?Andrew: Well, I think I'm sort of in a similar camp with that. It took me a while to figure out that that was what it was, but I use it as a sort of a scratch pad for whatever's on my mind. And I don't necessarily feel like things need to be kind of resolved when I write about them there. And I think maybe from the outside—I hope this isn't the case—but maybe from the outside, it sort of seems very disjointed. One week, I'll be giving a recipe and the next week, I'll be talking about style guides. And so I hope that when you see the overall arc of things, you can see that I keep circling back to certain themes. But I find it very useful as a kind of idea-generating place. And I'm kind of grateful that people are willing to kind of follow along there. People pay to subscribe, and that seems like an amazing thing that people want to kind of hear me just think out loud.Alicia: Right.Yeah. And I like that aspect of newsletters. I think a lot of people don't really get that. Maybe because they don't do it; they don't understand the value of having to be consistently creative. And that it's not necessarily an ends in itself, but it's just a way of thinking. It's just a practice that you can have. That people will go along with it is really interesting. And have you found a real connection with your audience there?Andrew: For sure. I've found that the fact of their presence in—I mean, I guess one nice thing about having a paid option is that if people are paying, they don't have to comment to show their appreciation for what you're doing.I feel like the one thing that I've wanted to—Well, it's not the only thing, but one of the things I want to develop more of a sense of community. I feel it's probably on me to figure out a way to foster that more. Because there is some of it, but not as much as there perhaps could be, where people are not only commenting and interacting with me but also communicating with one another more. And maybe that's the question of starting open threads or encouraging questions where people get to weigh in. The hardest part, or a hard part, of doing the newsletter and being a full-time freelancer is just finding the time to implement all these different ideas I have for making it better. It's very slow.Alicia: It's really slow. It's very hard. I want to open up to new, have other people contribute. But I have to make sure I'm fully available to do the best editing work and everything like that. I don't know. It's funny how Substack is, say, it’s all like, ‘Independent newsletters are the future, blah, blah, blah.’ It is, in a way, but at the same time, it's not sustainable at all to do without support. It's impossible to grow into the way that you might have a vision for without the support of a team. Andrew: Yeah, definitely. I can see so many places where it could be more than it is, and maybe it will be someday. But part of it's just a question of time. If I didn't have the freelance work, then I might be able to double the amount of stuff I do there. The problem is that I actually enjoy most of the, or nearly all of the freelance work I'm doing are things I'm interested in. So I'm happy to have it. Maybe there just needs to be more days in the week, although working more is not a good idea.Alicia: No, no. Yeah, it's a hard balance. For me, the struggle right now is finishing my book, and then—and also doing a newsletter.Andrew: Yeah, that I couldn't imagine. Although I have a book project that I need to get going on. So, I don’t want to talk about it much. But the idea of trying to juggle that seems impossible.Alicia: It's hard. It's really hard. The newsletter, in a great way, it became my—the bulk of my income. But I didn't know that that was going to happen. Thank God it happened. And then I have to keep it up to write the book, because the advance was so shitty. [Laughs.] And I sold the book before my—literally weeks before my newsletter kind of popped off, I guess, last year? I don't know. So, it's constantly maintaining this balance in this kind of work where you're weighing the pros and cons of literally every small decision. But I remember when I quoted you about flour in a past newsletter, and you talked about ingredient sourcing and flour sourcing, it caused a little bit of controversy in the artisanal flower community. I talked to Roxana Jullapat about this recently while talking about Mother Grains-Andrew: Which I loved.Alicia: Yeah, yeah.And we're all constantly trying to find this balance—or we're all, I think, people who try to care both about accessibility and taste and ecology, and trying to juggle all of these ideas at once. You have to think about what's good for your local ecosystem, and what's also realistic. And so, what are your thoughts on flour and accessibility right now?Andrew: So, yeah, I got kind of yelled at by somebody, for use—[laughs] for using the term ‘fancy flour’ to refer to sort of fresh milled local, regional, flours, which I love and use all the time and, I think are important to—it's an important aspect to the industry to promote.But it's only a piece of the story. There's so many issues with making that kind of thing accessible to everyone. It's very expensive. It's not accessible in terms of, most supermarkets don't carry anything like that. And mail order is definitely possible, but not only does that add to the cost but it adds to the carbon footprint of the thing. I try in the newsletter and elsewhere to encourage people to seek out those kinds of things if they're in their local economy, and to—I think a great deal of my audiences likely can't afford to spend as much as possible on flour, and maybe-So I think the person that wasn't happy with that term was coming from that perspective is—and like, ‘You need to kind of almost force people who can afford to use better products and more sustainable, whatever.’ And so, I think that's a good thing. But I think it's important not to forget that there are people who can't afford that, and some of those people might not be part of my audience, but they—maybe I'm not attracting them, because if I'm kind of limiting myself to boutique ingredients. I kind of want to come at it from both sides. There's another aspect which is kind of related to that, which is that you—the thing about flours, flours that are kind of boutiques, is that each one needs to be—the recipe needs to be developed specifically for that flour. Whereas if you called for a commodity, or sort of a well-known flour, they're consistent across the—people can get King Arthur flour from one side of the country to the other, and it's going to behave the same way no matter where you get it. And so then, all of a sudden, the recipe becomes accessible to more people. And so, it's a challenge, because if you want to encourage those kinds of things, you need to teach people how to use them and how to how to adapt to them, in a way, like to say, ‘I don't know what your flour is going to be like, but here's what to look for and how to adjust if that's the case.’ But still, I mean, it's really important, because I think maybe flour’s one—I think Roxana said this, or maybe she was talking about sugar, but I think they're similar in that it's one of those unexamined monoliths in our food culture that we don't—we just think flour is just the thing you get. You buy some flour. Whatever, it doesn't matter. As opposed to thinking about how huge the industry is and how difficult it would be to dismantle that sort of thing and replace it with something that is more sustainable and equitable. I think we have to start somewhere. And talking about flous that are made from grains that are grown locally—I'm lucky to live in New England, which before it was the heartland, was the breadbasket of America. And so, good grain can be grown here, and more and more is being grown. And so, I have access to really great local flour, but not everyone does. Although I think there's probably opportunities to grow flours that can be adapted for whateverenvironment you live in. I mean, there's some cool flours that grow in the desert, wheats that grow in the desert that are being built into flour. And actually, we might need more of them, because I haven't really delved too deep into it. But they're saying, this year has been really bad for droughts in the Midwest and Canada. I don't know if it's the end, or if it's just a blip and the kinds of things that we're gonna see more and more of over time. So it's a little scary to think, because if we can't grow—I mean, me being able to have, make my bread is important to me. But beyond that, access to something like flour going away is hard to fathom how damaging that would be to our economies and our lives.Alicia: Yeah.No, I think about that a lot, especially because living in Puerto Rico, I can get King Arthur, but I have to go to the special store and I have to pay way more than I would have paid in New York for it. And then it's funny, because I think if I tried to learn how to cook here, every recipe would be a nightmare because of the humidity and the—and so, because I already know how to cook, I'm—I know how to compensate for things. But I just want to see more recipes, I think, written—and I guess I should start doing this—for the gluten-free flours that are more locally produced like the cassava flour and the breadfruit flour and everything, and plantain flour even. Because, as we keep saying here, it's like, ‘Well, soon everyone will know what this is to live in the tropics.’ New York is subtropical now. And so yeah, it's just really interesting to think about and to kind of try to reframe—yeah, I use the local grain thing to question or whatever to think about, yeah, how we might make things in the future that are recognizable to us. Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just hard to imagine a world, or it's hard to imagine living in a world where something as fundamental as wheat or, were to go away. It's scary. And I love alternative flours, but you can't get a baguette out of cassava flour.Alicia: Yeah, exactly. Thinking about life without a baguette is kind of depressing. [Laughs.] Yeah. That's what I'm gonna have for breakfast. I have some. Anyway. [Laughs.] Let me enjoy it while I have it. I’m not thinking about that. But through your newsletter, you're also kind of—you're teaching classes on Zoom. And we talked about the different styles of writing recipes. But just to write recipes down in a methodical manner is so difficult for me personally. What is your process for doing that? What tools have maybe helped you do that? How have you found your teaching voice, basically?Andrew: So it's really interesting, because I'm deeply introverted. And so teaching is the farthest—especially in person—but in front of people, Zoom, or in a room full of them. But I actually have come to love it. And I never would have guessed that would be the case. I started teaching baking and cooking because I saw it as an opportunity to get to kind of hang out in spaces that I was just a consumer of where I wanted to—I wanted to be able to go to places like King Arthur and, on their dime instead of mine. And so I was like, ‘Ok, I'm just gonna see if they’ll let me teach something.’ But I quickly realized that actually, I really liked doing it. And so, I do it for its own sake now. It's challenging, but also it's a great tool for figuring out and kind of codifying what I know and what I don't know. If I have to develop it, I often will propose classes for things that I haven't quite finished figuring out but knowing that it'd be an opportunity to get it done. And so, there's something fun about jumping without a net into something like that. And so, in terms of a newsletter and the recipes, I think I've figured out how to teach, or learning how to teach. And in classes, I think I have converted some of that into how to write about it. But I'm still developing that a little bit more early on in the process. I feel I've been cycling through saying things and figuring out the best way to say something. I often talk about the same kinds of the same topics, how to work with a sourdough starter, or how to do techniques like folding and what not. And I'm never quite sure how to pass that along to somebody who, for whom it—they're naive to those concepts. But I've spent a lot of time thinking about that. And I feel like the thing that I think about most in sort of an abstract way is, how do you teach people to think like a baker does? It's not straightforward. I don't know if it's true for every skill, or, but I spend a lot of time thinking about, like, ‘What is it gonna flip the switch in somebody's head when they're doing a technique?’ It's not just straightforward, do this and get that result. It's more like, ‘Think like this, and you'll be able to figure out how to get that result.’ It's one step removed from the process. But I'm still trying to, still trying to get my head around that.Alicia: Well, for you, is cooking a political act?Andrew: Yes, it is. I feel like it's important to keep that in your mind when you're doing it. I think it's such an easy thing to forget that food and cooking have—it's such a fundamental thing. Is breathing a political act? It's almost the same, but—air is important, too. Food is so fundamental that it's just easy to forget that it has so much, so many implications in terms of—the flipside to eating is hunger, and maybe you're satisfying your own hunger but other people don't even have the option to satisfy it. Or equity in terms of who's making our food or who's growing, picking our fruits, and then all the impacts on climate and resources. And so, I feel I try to deliberately keep that in mind. I mean, it's not always there, but I just feel it's important not, never to forget that. It's part of a system that is not great and needs a lot of work. And I think that, especially if you're in the world of food and cooking, you can have an impact, a positive impact in that if you keep it in mind. Alicia: Right. Thank you so much for being here.Andrew: Oh, it was my pleasure. I'm so happy to be here. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe

01:27 - Andrew's Superpower: Stern Empathy 03:30 - Setting Work Boundaries * Matrix Organizations * 18F (https://18f.gsa.gov/) * Acknowledging Difficult Situations (i.e. Burnout) * Health Checks * Project Success * Time Tracking * Heart Connection / Motivation * Work Distribution * Greater Than Code Episode 162: Glue Work with Denise Yu (https://www.greaterthancode.com/glue-work) 18:54 - Providing Support During a Pandemic * Stretching/Growth Work * Comfortable/Safety Work * Social Connection 23:37 - Keeping People Happy / Avoiding Team Burnout * Project Aristotle by Google (https://rework.withgoogle.com/print/guides/5721312655835136/) * Collecting Honest Data * Psychological Safety & Inclusion * Earned Dogmatism * “The Waffle House Solution” 36:26 - Developing Team Culture * “Gravity People” * Honing Communication Skills * Staying Ahead of Big Problems * The ACE Model of Leadership * Appreciation * Coaching * Evaluation * Learning Skills * Managers: Coaching How To Coach * Communities of Practice * Hiring External Consultants * Online Courses, Books, Podcasts 43:08 - Knowing When to Jump Ship and Understanding Your Skills * TKI Assessment (https://kilmanndiagnostics.com/assessments/thomas-kilmann-instrument-one-assessment-person/) * Competing * Collaborating * Compromising * Avoiding * Accommodating 46:51 - Developing & Enforcing Boundaries * Summarization * Normalization * Asking For Support 59:05 - Making Mistakes * Demonstrating Vulnerability * Acknowledge, Internalize, and Learn * Rebuilding Trust * Acceptance: Start Over – There's Other Opportunities * Dubugging Your Brain by Casey Watts (https://www.debuggingyourbrain.com/) Reflections: Arty: The intersection between identifying and acknowledging creates the precedent for the norm. Jacob: Evolving culture to enable vulnerability more. Casey: Andrew's river metaphor and Arty's cardboard cutout metaphor. Andrew: Talking about and building psychological safety is foundational. Going first as leadership or being first to follow. How to start a movement | Derek Sivers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V74AxCqOTvg&feature=youtu.be) (being the first follower TED Talk) This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: ARTY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 248 of Greater Than Code. I'm Arty Starr and I'm here with my co-host, Jacob Stoebel. JACOB: Hello! Nice to be here, and I'm here with my other co-host, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're all here together with our guest today, Andrew Dunkman. Andrew, he/him, is an engineering leader and software developer with 17 years of experience. He's worked on and launched tools for contact relationship management, predictive sales, radiology and healthcare, learning and management, business-to-business timekeeping, and most recently in government at 18F, a part of the US General Services Administration that's helping the federal government adopt user-centered technology approaches. He loves those. He also likes building community in his free time. He helps moderate the DC Tech Slack, a 10,000-person community of tech workers in the DC area and he helps to run DC Code and Coffee, an informal hacking and community-building event every other weekend. Even though his cat, Toulouse, is glaring at him for talking too loud, he is excited to be here with us today. Hi, Andrew! ANDREW: Hey, y'all! So nice to be here. I'm honored to be a guest. CASEY: Let's start with our standard question to kick stuff off here. Andrew, what's your superpower and how did you acquire it? ANDREW: Thanks for asking. Yeah, this is whenever I answer the question of what my superpower is, it feels like bragging so I did what I normally do when I'm uncomfortable asking a question and I ask other people that question. I asked a few friends and they highlighted both, my ability to empathize with people and also, my sternness in that empathy. I think sometimes when you get caught up in empathizing with people, you can allow their emotions and their feelings to overwhelm you, or become a part of you in a way that you're not necessarily hoping for. So I like to draw a firm boundary there and then allow other people to see that boundary, I suppose. [laughs] I don't know, it's hard for me to say that that's a superpower, but I'm just going to lean into what other people told me. ARTY: That's a pretty good superpower. I like it. How did you acquire it? ANDREW: I credit my mom a lot actually. My mother is a dual major in psychology and English and as growing up, she had the worst way of punishing me, which is anytime I'd do something wrong, she would say, “Can you describe to me what you did and tell me how it made the other person feel?” which is the absolute worst thing to do to a child to make them explain how they've hurt you. [laughs] So I credit that a lot for developing those skills. CASEY: That's so funny. You think it's the worst thing you can do? Could you imagine yourself doing it ever if you're around children like that? ANDREW: Oh, totally. [laughs] Absolutely, yes. I now do it to my friend's children. I have no children myself, but I do to my friend's children and it's appropriately uncomfortable. CASEY: I like that. Yeah. It can be the worst and it can be helpful and productive. I believe it. ANDREW: Yes. As one of my coworkers like to say, “Two things can be true.” JACOB: That boundary, I've been thinking about something along the lines of that recently, particularly in work settings where you can get really burnt out in everything is high stakes emotionally at work. I think that's a really good boundary to have. ANDREW: Absolutely and it's also super hard to know. [chuckles] Both know where that boundary is and what to do when you are coming up to it. I think some people and myself occasionally notice you've crossed that boundary in retrospect, but not necessarily in the moment and it's hard to start off just know your tells when you're getting close to that line and when to pull the e-brake and take a walk, or go out and find some way to disengage, or reengage in yourself as a human and your human needs. CASEY: I'd love to hear an example of a time when you pulled the e-brake recently, Andrew. It's so vivid you must have a lot of stuff under that sentence. ANDREW: So my current organization, 18F, is one that's a matrixed so we've got our chapters is what we call them which is our disciplines. Those are engineering and design, product acquisitions, they're groups of people that do the same kind of work, and then our other angle of the matrix is our projects. Those are business verticals like the kinds of people that we're helping and the organizations that we're assisting around public benefits, or around national security, or around natural resources. So the result of a matrix organization is that you have two aspects to who's managing you—you have the manager of your work and you have the manager of your discipline—and the positive thing about that is that you can use both angles of the organization to support you in different ways. Sometimes in your work, you need someone to speak up for you as a person, or as your skills development angle and sometimes you need someone to speak up for you in terms of the project work that you're doing, advocating for success in the specifics of your project, regardless of the way you're contributing to that project. The result, as you zoom out into upper layers of management, is that you have a conflict designed into the system and that conflict, when things are working well, benefits the health of the organization, both the health of people and the health of projects are advocated for and supported. But when things get out of balance, which happens all the time, in every organization I've ever been in you've got pendulum swing back and forth between different balances and when things out of balance, then suddenly you find yourself overextended, or advocating to an empty room. A recent example was a conversation around advocating for the benefits of – I'm on the chapter side of the house so I support people within engineering and I had to pull an e-brake in a conversation where I was advocating for the health of people, but that I didn't have the right ears in the room to make a positive change. I found myself getting ahead of myself. One of the tells that I have is that I often feel tension in my jaw, which is usually a sign that I'm stressing too much about something. So I decided to take off a few hours and went to a gym [chuckles] and did a work out just to get the energy out of my system. ARTY: It seems like those conflicts can become pretty emotional depending on the circumstances where you've got folks that are overworked and stressed out, and wanting an advocate to help support them in those challenging circumstances. You just think about product deadlines and things coming up and the company's trying to survive and it needs to survive so it can keep people employed. Those things are important too, but then we've got these challenges with trying to live and be human and enjoy our lives and things become too stressful that we lose our ability to the function and we need advocates on various sides. So when you engage with someone, let's say, there's someone on the team that's burnt out and really stressed out, how would you approach empathizing with where they're coming from to help work toward some good the solution to these things? ANDREW: Great question. I think in these kinds of situations, I always come in with the acknowledgement that no one in this conversation owns the truth. We're both working together to understand what the best thing to do is and what the reality of the situation is. From my perspective, in trying to support someone seeing that they're burnt out, or overworked, that I think that's a misnomer. We can sometimes think of being burnt out overworked as an inherent state, or as something external. But I always try to encourage people to bring it internal because we all set boundaries and orders. The reality of an organization is that there will always be a resource constraint, whether that's people, or time, or money and it's up to the organization to effectively solve what they need to solve within the boundaries of those constraints. So when people are feeling overworked, or when they're feeling burnt out, oftentimes there's an imbalance there where the organization perhaps is trying to achieve too much, or perhaps there aren't enough resources supplied here. If you can both internalize it to yourself and say, “Okay, it's up to me to set responsible boundaries so that I'm not burnt out, so that I'm not overworked and how do I, as a manager, support you in finding that boundary and helping push back when people try to violate your boundaries?” Also, how do we, as an organization, understand where that line is and understand what kind of slack do we have? Because I think a lot of times in organizations, it's hard to see are we at 20% capacity, 200% capacity? It's hard to see because the more work you throw at people, unless you're getting pushback, it seems as if you still have more slack, more line you can pull. Part of this is acknowledging that there is a systems level problem here where there's a lack of visibility into how overworked someone is and also, helping someone recognize hey, here's my boundary. We're over at. Now let's figure out a, how do we move that boundary back to where it needs to be so that I'm a positive contributor to this team and I can live my life [chuckles] in a happy way and also, how do we raise this in a way that the organization can see so that we can ultimately be more successful?” If an organization is burning people out and making them feel overworked all the time, the work is not going to be successful. You care for people first and great people who are cared for then care for your projects and deliver great work. JACOB: Yeah, and it's like how can there'd be a health check for every person and what would that look like because I think if people are left to determine that for themselves, you can get really different conclusions from person. ANDREW: That is a great question I don't know the answer to. [laughs] I've been thinking about this a lot recently. My organization has a project health check where weekly, or bi-weekly, I can't remember, each project team talks about the different aspects of the work and whether, or not they're feeling well-supported, or if there are things external to the project that are getting in the way of project success. That gives you a data and interesting insights. We also track our time and there is a way that we track our time that's flagged as support to the team. So that's where managers and people who are assisting in making big project decisions, those people track their time to that separate line. That's also interesting to look at because typically people ask for help after they already need it and the people that are close to the project can see that they need help. So if you're looking at the time tracking, usually a week, or two before something shows up on this project health tracker, you see a spike in hours in the kinds of support that people are providing to the project. We have a lot of interesting data on the project health side of things, but it's really hard to collect data on the people part of this in a way that like makes people feel supported and it doesn't feel creepy. [chuckles] There's a whole aspect to this on whether, or not people feel comfortable reporting that they are feeling overworked and I haven't solved this problem. I'm curious if you all have ideas. [chuckles] I'd love to learn. ARTY: One of the things I'm thinking about with burnout in particular is I don't think it's directly correlated to the volume of work you're doing. There's other aspects and dimensions of things that go into burnout. So if I'm working on something that I'm really excited about, it can be difficult, it can be really challenging, it can be a huge amount of work, and yet as I work on it, as I get to the other side of that mountain I'm climbing, burnout isn't what I'm feeling like. It's a rush being able to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile as we don't necessarily burn out directly in correlation with working too many hours say, or something directly related to that. The things I find that happen when people get burned out is when they lose their heart connection with what they're doing. When you love what you do, when you're excited about what you're working on, when you're engaged and connected to a sense of purpose with what you're doing, then we usually stay in a pretty good, healthy state. We've got to maintain not still keeping in someone in balance, but we're doing pretty okay. Where I see developers usually burning out is there's some heart crushing aspect of things where people are disconnecting disengaging with what they're doing emotionally and they go into this mode of not caring anymore, not having those same compelling reasons to want to do those things and such that when that love connection dissipates, that work becomes too hard to maintain, to force yourself to do. So you start getting burnt out because you're forcing self yourself to do things that aren't an intrinsically motivated thing. I feel like the types of things that we need to do are activities that encourage this sense of heart connection with our team, with our project, with our customers. We do need visibility into those things, but maybe conversations, or even just knowing that those things are important, making time to scheduling time to invest in those sorts of things. I'm curious your thoughts on that. ANDREW: Yeah. Thank you for flagging that specifically. I think there's one thing that comes to mind for me is that is this work that you once loved that you no longer love? Like, is this something that you've connected with in the past and this really motivated you and now you're not motivated, I should say and if that's the case, what changed? I think brains are tricky and I think that we've all over the last pandemic, [chuckles] the current pandemic, I should say, the COVID pandemic is the one I'm referring to. I think that as people have coped with lots of trauma in their lives and significant shifts and changes, it's come out in interesting ways. I think, especially as people are learning themselves a little more with new constraints, the impacts are not always directly connected between say, the project work that you're doing, maybe something that you once loved, and now suddenly you no longer feel attached to that. What is that? Is that the work is somehow different? Is it that you really just your threshold for everything else in your life is just ticking higher and higher and higher so now it's really hard to engage in any of the things that you once loved? I personally have found myself, through the COVID pandemic, really finding meaning in repetition. So now I'm like a 560-day Duolingo streak and I've got podcasts I listen to every day of the week, and this repetition helps mark time in a way that makes me feel more like I have my life together. That gives me more capacity and reduces that stress threshold for me. So I think trying to narrow in on what specifically changed and how do we tackle that problem head on, and it might not be the work, or connection to the work. The other side of the question is, is this work your love? Maybe this is work that they've never really loved. Maybe this is grunt work—and one thing that I like to acknowledge is that every project has a grunt work associated with it and if you don't really have a framework for rotating that grunt work, a lot of times it falls to the person who has the least privilege on the team. So if as a positive team, you can work together and say, “Hey, these are the set of tasks that just needs to get done,” maybe that's notetaking in meetings, maybe that's sending out weekly status emails, or running a particular meeting. “Let's rotate that around so that we can find a balance between the grunt work and then the work that we're here to do this stuff that motivates us.” Because if the grunt work doesn't get done, the project won't be successful, but also, we all really want to work on the other thing, too. So let's make sure that no one here gets shafted with all that work [chuckles] and I think especially if teams haven't deliberately thought about that, patterns start to emerge in which people with less privilege get shafted. So I think that's something to be well acknowledge. JACOB: Quick shoutout. Episode 162 of this podcast, we talked with Denise Yu who really is framing exactly what you're talking about. She calls it glue work and it's that work that's maybe not directly recognized as a value add, but is the work that holds all of it together. So all of the work that might get done in JIRA, or around a Wiki, or organizing meetings, taking notes, all the above. The basic theory is like you said, how can that glue work be distributed equitably? Not to say that certain roles don't intrinsically need to do certain types of glue work because that's what their expertise is in. But it was a really good conversation. So if people are interested, go check that out, too. ANDREW: What are some ways that you're seeing that pandemic affect people in their work? ANDREW: I think the answer to that question is as varied as the number of people [laughs] that I support. I think each person is affected in dramatically different ways, which I didn't quite expect, but taking a step back and thinking about it, of course, each person's individual and each person reacts differently. But I would say that for some people, especially people in care-taking roles, that kind of work has to shift to support them. So if you're someone caretaking, you're often dealing with a lot of details in your out of work life and especially through the pandemic, now those lives are merging together. I'm currently at a remote organization and have been at a remote organization for the last 10 years, or so. The remote work thing is not necessarily new, but the complete merging of all of the things life and work is something that's still new and I think a lot of people who work remotely regularly often find ways to get out and get more exposure to people in their personal time, which is also something that has been limited. Especially if you're caretaking, you likely are doing that even less of your threshold for getting out is even lower. So if you're constantly dealing with details in your life, it might be good for you to take on more of that glue work, or more of the when you're thinking about the – I think I've worked in three categories. You've got the stretching work, or your growth work and that's work that is right on the cusp of your understanding. You're not really good at it yet, but by failing and by having moderate success, you grow as an individual. There's also your comfortable work, or your safety work and that's work that you're good at, you can knock it out of the park, do it really fast. I think for folks who are dealing with a lot in their personal life at the moment, leaning more towards the glue work, more towards the safety work is really important for making you feel successful and you're not really hungering that growth. I wished I remember the reference, but I heard someone referring to growth as being in a boat in a river before. Sometimes the river is wide and sometimes the river is narrow. When the river is wide, you really need to row. I found myself personally, in the last couple of years, not necessarily needing to grow as much and the river feels more narrow to me. So the current is faster and you're taken away with growth and you don't really need to do a lot to get there. Instead, you need to hold on [laughs] and try not to capsize. So that's one aspect, I would say I've seen people… CASEY: That's such a cool metaphor. I'm going to remember that. ANDREW: Yeah. I wish I remembered where I heard it from so that I can reference it for you all. It's definitely not an original idea of mine. But another aspect of the way people have individually in coping and needing support is around their social connection and that's an easy example. I think we've all felt differences in our social connection through COVID and sometimes that takes the form of having more structured meetings. Some people find more structure gives them the ability to communicate with each other in a way that makes you feel social and also isn't as draining and other people are the exact opposite where they want to get together in a room with less structure so that you can all just hang out and the structure gives people a sense of feeling stressed. The way that I've been looking across my organization is what kind of things are we providing and are they varied enough that we're capturing the majority of people in the support that they need? CASEY: I thought about a lot in the dance communities I am in that there is a lot of introverts that love to go dancing, partner dancing, because it's structured and they'll say so. Like, I love that I can just show up and do the thing and it's social, but I haven't thought about the other side of that, which you just said, which is some people don't want the structure. I'm sure those people exist and I just probably know a lot of them, but I haven't heard people say that about themselves as much. The introverts in the dance communities know and they say it. The other side, I'm going to look out for it. That's cool. ANDREW: I used to play music for religious music ministry and one of the rules we had is that if you're always picking things you like, you're leaving people out. I think of that not necessarily attached to music ministry, but attached to all the other work that I do and that's if your preferences are always represented, someone else's preferences are not. So trying to look around and say, “Who's not in the room right now, who could be benefiting from having their preferences heard once in a while?” CASEY: I want to jump back to how can we tell if people are about to be burnt out at work? How can we help people have a healthier environment? One of the lenses that I think about all the time is Project Aristotle by Google that came out, I don't know, maybe 5 years ago at this point and we're mentioning a lot of that aspects of it in our conversation already. Earlier, we were talking about on their list four and five are meaning of work like personal importance and impact of work, which is the company mission a little bit more. The other three that we touched on a little bit but not as much is psychological safety, which is number one on their list, dependability, like depending on each other, the coworkers, and structure and clarity, like goals, roles, and execution. I'm sure this is not a full list of what keeps individual employees happy. But I think a team environment that hits all of these five really well is going to have less burnout. More than individually, it's been studied. That's true. So when I did team health surveys before for the team, for the people, I like these five questions a lot. I bet it's a lot like the project surveys, Andrew, you were talking about. A lot of team health surveys are similar, but you got me thinking now what's missing from that list that's focused on the team that would show up in the individual one and I don't have a clear answer for that. ANDREW: And adding onto that, is there a way where you can collect honest data? I think one of the benefits of having one-on-one relationships with your immediate manager is that they can read between the lines and what you're saying after they get to know you well enough. I think for me, that usually happens about a year in with a new employee where you get to know someone well enough that you can understand. If they come to you and say, “Hey, I'm struggling with this right now in this project.” Is that a huge red flag, or is that normal? I think it takes a while to get to know someone and then you can read between the lines of what they're saying and say, “Okay, this is a big deal. It deserves my attention. I'm going to focus on this.” One of the things I struggle with capturing this information is that a, it's hard to capture that sort of interpretation part in these kinds of surveys and b, the data that you get is – when we were talking about burnout a lot, sometimes when people are burned out, they don't have the energy to submit these surveys. [chuckles] So the data is not particularly representative, but that's a hard thing to keep track of because how do you know? So it's a really tricky problem. I'm going to continue to try things [chuckles] to get this data, but I do like the idea of looking between the lines on if we're surveying team health, is there a way we can focus in on individuals? ARTY: There's also a lot of things that we don't talk about. Like Casey brought up psychological safety, for example and if you don't feel safe, you're not likely to necessarily bring up the reasons that you don't feel safe because you don't feel safe. [chuckles] I'm thinking about just some team dynamics of some teams I've worked on in the past where we had someone on the team that had a strong personality, and we would do code reviews and things, and some folks that were maybe more junior on the team felt sensitive and maybe attacked by certain things. But the response was to shut down and fall in line with things and not rock the boat and you ask him what's going on and everything's fine. So there's dynamics of not having psychological safety, but you might not necessarily get at those by talking to folks. Yet, if you're sitting in the room and you know the people and see the interactions taking place, you see how they respond to one another in context. Because I'm thinking about where those dynamics were visible and at the time, the case I'm thinking of was before the days where we were doing pull requests and stuff, where we did our code reviews in a room throwing code up on the screen and would talk through things that way. You'd see these dynamics occur when someone would make a comment and how another human would just respond to that person and you see people turn in words on themselves. These sorts of just dynamics of interaction where people's confidence gets shut down, or someone else is super smart and so they won't challenge them because well, they're a super smart person so obviously, they know. Some people speak in a certain way that exudes confidence, even if they're not necessarily confident about their idea, they just present in a certain way and other people react to that. So you see these sorts of dynamics in teams that come up all the time that are the silent undercurrents of how we all manage to get along with one another and keep things flowing okay. How do we create an environment and encourage an environment where people feel safer to talk about these things? ANDREW: To me, psychological safety and inclusion are very closely tied and I believe that inclusion is everyone's responsibility on a team and in the situation you described there, who else was in that room and why didn't they stop it? I think that it's easy to say, “Oh, these two people are having a disagreement here,” but if we all truly believe that it's our responsibility to create a safe environment and include everyone and their ideas. As you mentioned, everyone in that room could see what was happening. [chuckles] So I think there's a cultural thing there that perhaps needs some work as an organization and I'm not saying that that is something that I don't experience in my teams as well. I think this is work that's constant and continual. Every time you notice something, it's to bring it up and invite someone back into the conversation. Some people like to think about calling out, or versus calling in and I really like that distinction. When someone oversteps a boundary, or makes a mistake, they've removed themselves from this safe community, and it's up to you as a safe community to invite them back in and let them know their expectations and I like the idea of that aspect of calling people in. Obviously, that requires some confidence and I encourage people, especially people that have institutional privilege, to especially looking out for this because you can really demonstrate to your team how much you're willing to support them if you keep an eye out for these kinds of dynamics. One thing you mentioned really made me think about earned dogmatism. When people are around for a longer time, they become more closed-minded. That's the earned dogmatism effect and it's the idea that since you've been here for so long, or since you've been working in this industry so long, you're the expert and it causes you to become more and more closed-minded to new ideas, which obviously is not good. [laughs] So anytime I see that pattern popping up, I try to just let people know like, “Hey, do you know about this effect? Do you know that this happens with people in teams and is that how you would like to be? Would you like to become more close-minded, or would you like to continue learning?” I think just the awareness of the fact that that's something that you're going to inherently start doing helps people fight against that. JACOB: I'm trying to imagine just a typical, if you can call it that, team in a tech company and they're probably in a state where a lot of these things we're talking about might not come so easy because I think what we're saying is that a lot of this is dependent on everyone on the team being vulnerable about where they're at. I wonder if you have any ideas about how a team can get from there to the ideal state because it sounds like that's a really big barrier. I can't have better psychological safety and inclusion without somehow getting people's feedback and I can get feedback if they don't feel safe. So is there some iterative way to improve on that? ANDREW: Yeah. So one thing that I have direct experience with is in the federal government, there's a lot of funding models between the federal government and local governments where the federal government will pay for a majority of something as long as the local government follows a set of rules on implementing a program. So like Medicare and Medicaid are examples of this and other benefits programs as well. Even the federal highway system; the reason why our interstates are all the same is because the federal government pays for a majority of them if the local authorities building roads follows a set of rules and guidelines. I think that's one of the most dramatic examples of a power difference. If you're forming a joint team to make changes to Medicare, or build a new highway, or improve rail service in your city and one person in the room controls 90% of the money. I think that's a pretty dramatic example of what could be a really psychologically unsafe environment and it requires a lot of effort to break down that boundary of, “Hey, I'm here to say yes to what you want.” But then the reality is the federal government representatives in those situations are often looking to collaborate and help solve problems because they're looking out to see how do I best spend this money to achieve the best effect. But the tendency is that other members of the team coming from the 10% side of the house, they're responsible for the execution of the program and so, they tend to hide mistakes, or hide hiccups as much as possible so that they don't get their funding cut. That's just a very natural thing that happens and the experience that I have in this situation is what I like to think of as the Waffle House solution. I heard of a particular person in this situation taking the whole team to Waffle House. This obviously works better in-person. It's hard to take people to Waffle House remotely; that's definitely not something that you can't do. The idea behind that conversation is just the problem here is that you're not connecting with each other on a human level and you want to be safe to share your vulnerability with each other, but before you can be vulnerable with each other, you have to recognize each other's humanity and let everyone know that you respect each other. I think an easy way to do that is to share a meal, maybe it's to play a game together, maybe it's to schedule a meeting for 30 minutes in which you talk about note work. In the example that I gave it's up to the person in the position of power here to set that example, because if you're someone without that privilege, if you are someone who pays for 10% of a project instead of 90%, it's hard for you to go to your 90% funder and say, “Can I waste 30 minutes of your time? Can I waste half a day?” Because waste in this case is the idea from the business side of the house. You're wasting time. But in reality, if you slow down and connect with each other on a human level—slow is smooth and smooth is fast—so you can help the team develop that sense of humanity with each other, create an environment where hopefully you can be more vulnerable with each other and collaborate more humanly with each other. So I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a textbook plan like okay, you've got problems on your team, let's go to Waffle House and the problem solves. [chuckles] I'm not saying that but I am saying perhaps look for opportunities for you to recognize each other's humanity, and break down perhaps a structure that might be standing in the way of connecting with each other, and then just focusing on that can hopefully help you find that vulnerability better. JACOB: You can't take yourself seriously at a Waffle House. It's just not possible. ANDREW: [laughs] I'm pretty serious about Waffle House. I don't know about you. [laughs] CASEY: I'm starting to get a craving here. Yeah, totally agree. I love that this is being talked about more and more, how do we build psychological safety on teams? It comes from trust, human connection, vulnerability, and how do we build that? By treating each other as humans. ARTY: The things I think about just contrasting some teams I've seen over time and how they ended up developing and the culture that emerged is the technical leadership on the team that organically evolves. Some people have strong personalities. They tend to naturally act in a leader-oriented way. Even if they don't officially have the title hat on their head, they're somebody that people respect and look up to. They value their opinion and thoughts and whoever those people are that have the natural gravity tend to have a lot of influence over the emergent culture. So when I've seen people in that position, be really supportive of listening to the ideas of other folks on the team, creating space and treating people with respect, creating an environment where people are heard and listened to and it's about the ideas that the behavior of those people have an outsized impact on the culture that emerges by just how they interact and treat you respect others and other folks on the team tend to mimic and model that behavior of wherever that natural kind of gravity is going toward. If you've got folks on the team that are like that, that have a tendency to lift up other people around them, then what emerges is a much more psychologically safe environment. When you've got somebody in that gravity position that has an ego defensive response, they want to continue to feel like the confident expert ones, when people say counter things that are positioned as a challenge and you get a very different set of dynamics that emerge where people tend to be more walk on eggshells, try to say things very carefully to not upset things. I feel like it's just human instinct response depending on who's in the room, who you're talking to, how you anticipate they will react to something, that emergent interactions come from that and that whoever those gravity people are tend to have this outsize influence. So who you have in your organization of those folks? I'd say probably being really careful to hire people that have a tendency to and a desire to want to lift other people up and to maybe not have such a fragile competitive ego dynamic going on. ANDREW: Absolutely. Well, I have lots of feelings on hiring, [chuckles] but I do think that in the tech industry, we don't spend as much time focusing on communication and then I think that we should. I think a lot of times people who are in that ego situation are expressing vulnerability, but poorly and I think if they had more communication skills, they could potentially express that differently in a way that was more positive to culture. So zooming back to one of the things you said around leadership, evolution, evolutionary culture, and who steps into leadership roles, I think one of the things that is really important to me about good leadership is staying ahead of what your big problems are and that isn't necessarily saying working ahead of everyone else. That's saying keeping your eye on the horizon. Like, are you looking out to where we're going and what kind of problems are we seeing here? If there's an acknowledgement of an issue with psychological safety on teams, letting leaders emerge naturally may not be the right approach. You can deliberately select someone who demonstrates the culture that you want to create on a team has that technical leader and give them – I like the ACE model, the appreciation, the coaching, and the evaluation of leadership, where you give them that appreciation on the particular things that they're doing really well and in front of the team so that the team can say, “Oh, that's what the norm is here. That's what we should be doing.” That also gives the person, who may have perhaps more of a natural leadership role, if that would have naturally emerged, but perhaps it's missing some of those communication skills, or other skills that makes them a more around teammate, gives them an opportunity to be out of the spotlight so that they can work on developing those skills and becoming a more active contributor to the team instead of holding it back in some ways. CASEY: I love that we keep saying the word “skill: because these are all learnable skills. You can learn how to communicate well. You can learn how to be a strong, effective leader. You can learn how to foster a psychologically safe and inclusive environment. You can learn all these things. I love to work at places where they want this, the culture that the leaders, the people who run the company, want it even if they don't know how yet because that growth is possible as long as there's the desire for that. I think we all have a base level of desire, but some people are aware of it and articulate it and say – I saw a tweet the other day. Someone was looking for a job and of their five criteria, top five they listed in the tweet, psychological safety was on the list. That person knows they want to work on a team like that. That's pretty cool. So someone wants their team to learn these skills. A natural way is managers coaching their employees to do that kind of thing like coaching how to coach. That can work pretty well. It's pretty powerful. Another one is communities of practice, where you have people come together and talk. It could even literally be about culture. Some companies have a culture, community of practice, where they talk about how to influence the culture. Some places don't have the skills yet and they hire external coaches. There's a whole bunch of companies including me. For myself, I'm a consultant for making happy teams. I do coaching and training, too. There's online courses, there's books, there's podcasts like Greater Than Code. It's pretty good. You should check it out. [chuckles] But acknowledging the problem, being aware of it is a huge key first step and I don't like to push for a psychological safety in a place that doesn't value it. That's just a recipe for burnout for me. It's happened to me a lot, but in an environment where it is already desired, getting people from wanting to, to being able to. That's super satisfying work. I think that's true for anyone in tech who is talking about this kind of stuff, who cares about it. You want to make a difference where you can. ANDREW: Absolutely knowing when to jump ship at an organization because you are fighting upstream at a time when you are either being taken away in the current, or there aren't enough other people around you to swim upstream with you, it is super important. One of the things that helped me open a door in my life that I'd be happy to share with you all is an assessment I took a couple of years back called the TKI assessment, Thomas Kincaid Institute assessment, or something. I could've gotten that all wrong, but it's a tool that helps you understand what skills you already have around conflict resolution and what skills you can grow around conflict resolution. That unlocked a lot in my life specifically because it allowed me to understand how I naturally resolve conflict, to understand when I should push against my natural instincts to resolve conflict, and when I should feel that I have exhausted my abilities to resolve this conflict. That last step is a great indicator if you've tried everything you can to resolve the conflict, and maybe that conflict is around creating a psychologically safe workspace, you yourself cannot do this. So can you bring in other people that can help resolve this, or is it time to walk away and find a team that supports you better? The five different modes that they reference in TKI are competing, collaborative, collaborating, I should say, compromising, avoiding, and accommodating. When I first took the assessment, I scored a 0 in competing which means I had no recognizable skill in competing. When I look back into my history, my childhood, how I was raised, that totally makes sense. I was raised in a household where when people wronged you, you let it go. You moved on to find people who would support you and believed that that person would eventually experience justice and that was not your responsibility to do that. Applying to my work-life today, that means people can walk over me. [laughs] So how do you pick up those skills? The assessment doesn't necessarily dive too much into how you pick up the skills, but I think just knowing where your blind spots are was really helpful for me, because then I could recognize a situation where a, I flagged that I'm experiencing conflict. B, my natural tendency is to accommodate this conflict, or avoid it. C, is that the right approach for this environment? Is that a right approach for this problem? And then d, either do that approach, or change it. It's really uncomfortable. Often, when I'm competing, it makes me feel selfish and I acknowledge that. So when I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to change my approach and I'm going to compete here. I'm going to argue.” It's like, “Okay, I'm readying myself,” like, “Okay, I'm going to feel selfish now, be ready to feel selfish, go for it.” [laughs] And that's just sort of how I counteract those natural tendencies. So I wouldn't say there's one particular magic bullet, or this is the assessment that you should do, or anything like that, but there are a number of tools out there to sort of help you understand yourself and what skills you have and what skills you might want to grow into. They can also provide a sense of completeness around a particular skill area, like conflict avoidance, or conflict resolution, and let you know when you've exhausted the available options in front of you. ARTY: That's interesting to me just thinking about where we started this discussion with boundaries and just people can react in a different way, and if you have someone who's kind of overstepping boundaries, how do you learn to stand up for yourself? If your instinct is to just run away from conflict, whenever it comes up, then we've got other sorts of problems and stuff that emerges. Sometimes, the right thing to do is to stand up for yourself and to be able to have the confidence to feel like you can. One of the things that that helps me with that is when someone else is upset and reacting and stuff is maybe they're attacking me, or something is to separate myself personally for that. So if I imagine them in their head and I'm a cardboard cutout character that I'm like, “Okay, they're kicking the cardboard character and that's not me.” They have a picture in their head of this little cardboard character that they've got an upset relationship with that that's separate from me. I can look at the dynamics that are of what's going on with them and why they're upset with this cardboard character, understand what's going on in their world with separating myself from that, and then I can respond in a way that is standing up for myself without necessarily reacting to the situation where I feel like I need to defend myself against an attack that something going on that really has nothing to do with me, but still, I need to be able to stand up for myself and not necessarily back away from the situation. So I find those kinds of skills really help with being able to not take other people's stuff so personally. You talked about the challenge with boundaries and over empathizing can put us in a situation where the things that other people say can end up hurting us a lot, or we internalize somebody else's feeling so much, or someone else's worldview so much that we can lose ourselves in someone else's emotions and feels. How do we separate enough so that we can have a solidity in our own self and our own sense of knowing such that we can have our own compass that doesn't fall over, that we can feel bolstered in ourselves, independent of what everyone else is doing? That's where that empathy and boundaries and resilience and stuff come in. So a question for you, you did mention this boundary thing early on, what are some of the things that have helped you to develop boundaries, or some of the tools that you use to help in those challenging situations? ANDREW: I love the cardboard cutout analogy. I personally like to replay situations as if they're soap operas. I'll describe the characters, especially when things get heated emotionally, it's easy for me to recognize it as a soap opera, which helps me chuckle about the emotional component of it in a way that externalizes it from my feelings. It's a really tough situation. That's a tough ask. I think one thing that I do in the exact moments when I am feeling hurt, or valued, or some kind of emotional component is attached to something someone just told me is to again, pull that e-brake and say, “Okay, stop. I am not my work.” Similar to when you submit a pull request, you are not your code. I am not my work. I am not this conversation. I'm a whole self, I am valued as myself. I'm surprised by something that just happened and I'm reacting to it in a particular emotion, emotional reaction. So if you can create a pattern, when people get you into that emotional state, whether, or not they were intending on getting you there, of saying, “Hold on, I'm caught off guard by that. Can you tell me more?” Like, “I don't understand that comment.” It shifts the power dynamic from someone putting you on the spot, which they may, or may not have intended to do, to shift it back towards them to say, “Now the responsibility is on you as the person who has made me feel upset, or I'm caught off guard by that and the responsibility now is on you to describe more so that I can contextualize the emotion that I'm feeling, or just give me time to react to that.” You don't always have to immediately respond and oftentimes, I find myself reacting too quickly. All of the tools that I have in my toolbox are slowing down. That's one of the tools that I definitely use to help acknowledge that something is unusual. Another tool is I'm asking people to summarize so acknowledging that, “Hey, I'm surprised by that and I'm starting to get lost in the details of this meeting. Would it be all right if I asked you to summarize the main points here, or could you follow-up in Slack after this, or follow-up an email after this?” That's another one of those, like my natural tendency to avoid. It's like okay, I can take a step back here and avoid this immediate conflict, or this immediate emotion, and then take a breather. Often, in the before times, as I would go out and speak at conferences and I'm not a natural extrovert. I have this tendency after I speak at a place to go find a closet, or some dark room somewhere [chuckles] just to recharge a little bit, do nothing. I often will just sit there and sweat in a closet for 30 minutes, or something like that. That process allows me to reset my blood chemistry and say, “Okay, how do I fully acknowledge this situation?” Like, do I feel like I did a good job? Am I proud of the work that I'm doing? Am I proud of this? Is this where my boundaries should be? It allows me to give that moment to step away, to reset a little bit. So it's something I think that I will spend the rest of my life learning, which is how to recognize my boundaries and set them appropriately, and I think that's right. I should be continuing to learn as I continue to change. ARTY: I really liked the summary thing. Just thinking about someone's really upset, it's a pretty safe question to ask and at the same time, it forces them to take a step back and really think about what it is that they're trying to say. Because usually when we're upset, we just spew lots of words of upsetness, but it forces you to shift into more of a thinking mode away from emotional mode, which I feel like would have a really good impact on level setting the conversation. Just take a deep breath. What is it you're trying to communicate here? What are the main points? I really liked that summarization idea. ANDREW: The one thing I always myself in those moments is, “Nothing is more important than my next breath,” and that helps me to unplug from the situation and focus on breathing and focus on relaxing and then be able to show back up and reengage. JACOB: Something that I think can be important is if I'm at work and I'm realizing that I need to be vulnerable in one way, or another because I need to draw a boundary, or for some other reasons, something that I feel like would be really important that I would really need to have is an example that would give me some idea of what will happen when I do that. How can team members get examples of what happens when I'm vulnerable, because if they don't know what will happen, they're probably going to be left to their own personal experiences from maybe at another job, or something like that, that probably don't apply, that probably would be completely different. So it's like, how can managers, or leaders help people see, or experience examples of this is how we talk about difficult conversations to normalize it and just help people understand, like, this is what will happen and this is the way we go about it and yes, it will be safe. ANDREW: I don't think you can say that. [laughs] JACOB: I know. ANDREW: And that maybe is controversial, but I don't think you can say, “Yes, this will be safe.” I think you can strive for it and you can work for an environment that's safe, but in a professional setting, there's always a line and maybe it's not safe to share something that you think is appropriate to share and there are lots of reasons for that. Maybe it's the impact on other people. But the pattern I like to encourage and people just ask for permission, which is something that is maybe not always universally applicable advice, but oftentimes, I find myself talking to people when they're on teams where they want to say something controversial, or they want to say something difficult, or they want to share something that's personal and how they attach to this project, or this work, or something that happened in the team. I think there's a lot of power in asking people to support you to coming in and saying, “I really want to share something with you all and I'm not sure how it's going to go. Can you support me in this? What are you interested in hearing?” The way I often say it, when I'm trying to say something controversially is, “Can I be spicy for a moment?” [laughs] And that's an acknowledgement of saying like, “Hey, I'm going to say something comfortable.” It gives people a moment to set their expectations and it gives them a moment to recognize how they should respond before they hear what you say and then are caught up in the emotion of the response. I think that's a really kind thing you can do to your team to say like, “Hey, can I be vulnerable for a second here?” Like, “This is a project which involves researching prison populations and three of my family members are in prison.” If you lead off with saying, “Three of my family members are in prison,” people don't know how to understand that comment. But if you start by saying, “Can I be vulnerable for a second?” People will recognize that hey, you're showing something deep about you and your personality and it's something tied to your sense of identity, or something deep within you in a way that is not the responsibility of the team to validate, or say it's right, or wrong. But it is the responsibility to the team to hear you and to understand you and ask questions to say, “Hey, tell me more about that. Tell me more about how that connects to this work,” or “Do you want to interview some of your family for research on this project?” [chuckles] Or “Do you want them to stay out of this project?” Or “How do we support you as a team member? Is this something that you want to acknowledge, but you'd prefer to put that in a box and keep it on the shelf, or is that a part of your identity that you'd like to bring to this conversation and bring to this work?” I think those conversations like can really benefit from that asking for permission step and you don't really need to wait for people's answers there, [chuckles] but it gives you an opportunity to set the tone for the conversation. JACOB: I feel like if I was working on your team and I saw Andrew use that phrase, “Can I have permission to be vulnerable? Can I be spicy?” I feel like later when I felt like I needed to be vulnerable, I would feel a lot more comfortable because now here's a map that's if I do this, it's probably not completely out of bounds and that now I have a way to know here's how we go about that on this team, because there's a leader who modeled it. ARTY: Yeah, bingo. I was just thinking about all the different ways I've screwed things up and stuff and learned, I guess, the hard way, what boundaries are the hard way of what unsafe things are is by making mistakes and screwing things up. I think about some of these experiences that I had and I feel like the saving grace for me, even when I messed something up, is that I genuinely cared and that people knew that and could see that and so, that when I apologize for something, it was authentic and that we could move forward and stuff because I cared. Underneath it all, I genuinely care. So even though I made some mistakes and stuck with things that was okay. And then after that, when I was thinking about being in more of a leadership position, one of the things I made a point of doing was putting mistakes and stuff I've made on center stage. Making it okay and safe for people to talk about when they screwed something up. Being in a leadership position, when I talked about all the things that “Well, I screwed up this thing, I screwed up this thing;” it makes it okay when our leaders demonstrate vulnerability, or create ways and pathways that show us how to do those things safely, too. ANDREW: That reminds me of a friend of mine had a conversation with me last weekend specifically around a mistake that they had made and that mistake was in an online community. They were discussing building a world in a video game and they suggested building something that was offensive. They immediately dove into how they didn't know it was offensive at the time and that the reaction that other people gave to them was inappropriate and that they felt like they didn't know how to apologize in a way that would help support growth, or reengagement with the community, and that they felt like, “Maybe I'm just being canceled,” or maybe people are overreacting here. After the whole conversation, I just let them talk out and they ended with like, “How do I reengage here when people are now ignoring me?” and I just said, “Well, you don't deserve a second chance.” Not that anyone deserves to be canceled immediately, or cut out, but when someone says something offensive that you take offense in, it's up to that person how much tolerance they have for you. If someone has decided that this in this situation was so offensive, or that their tolerance for that offense is low, you don't get a second chance there. That's a mistake that becomes part of you and hopefully, you can allow that burden to not rest on your shoulders and hold you down, but you can internalize it and learn from it, and it becomes part of the foundation you stand on so that you don't make these kinds of mistakes next time. And also, [chuckles] demonstrating an aspect of my superpower, I disagree with you. I don't think you didn't know that that was offensive. [chuckles] I think you had that part of your brain turned off and hey, can we like talk about that? I think that this particular thing, you knew it was offensive, but you were thinking about this in a different context, or you thought this would be okay, and now you're rewriting this and placing yourself as a victim. That is a dangerous pattern so don't do that. [chuckles] I think that in a work setting, tying this back, when you are having these difficult, or vulnerable conversations, being able to acknowledge when you've made a mistake, maybe perhaps when you've shared something that is offensive, or perhaps you've made a comment about someone else's moment that's offensive, it's really important to acknowledge the mistake to provide the opportunity for others to give your feedback and acknowledge that you've damaged trust here. It's your responsibility as the person who damaged that trust to then rebuild it and maybe rebuilding that trust means leaving the organization, or changing teams, or maybe that means really, truly deeply listening and empathizing with people moving into that position of hurt that you've caused and being uncomfortable with it, especially when you're personally wrong. When I'm personally wrong, I really feel that I want people to understand how much I'm hurt and if there isn't a great opportunity to share that pain with someone it's hard to accept their apology, because you don't feel like they understand. In those situations, it's up to the person who's done the controversial thing, or overstepped that boundary to step in and say, “Let's talk about this when you're ready.” ARTY: And also, the other thing I'm just thinking is that when things do happen, we need opportunities and stuff to start over, too. Sometimes the right thing to do is walk away from the whole thing, but learn from it and there's always, there's so many people out there, there's so many opportunities out there, and we're surfing on the waves of life. We learn things along the way and there's always new relationships and things we can build and if we take those lessons and stuff with us for when we do screw things up that maybe we can navigate the next opportunity a little bit different. I've had enough facepalm moments and stuff of just relationships where the things that come to mind for me are things where someone was put off from me because I'm kind of the passionate, excited person and not everyone knows how to deal with that, or might think I'm a weirdo, or something. So I'll scare someone away and I don't mean to. I'm like, “But I'm a nice person” kind of thing, but sometimes there's nothing you can do about it. It's like this first impression thing that you can never really fix, but there's other opportunities out there, there's other relationships, and maybe the purpose of this interaction in your life is just for you to internalize and learn this lesson so that you carry it with you forward. We're all surfing on the waves of life and these kinds of things happen and it's not the end. It's just an opportunity. It's an opportunity to learn a lesson that then we can take with us into the future. ANDREW: Absolutely. Yeah, I know. I've been fired from jobs, had friends cut me out of their lives and made a lot of mistakes. That becomes part of who I am and I carry that forward and I'm happy that I've made these mistakes in my past because they prepared me for making bigger mistakes in the future. What could be more fun? CASEY: A lot of people get stuck on these experiences, thinking about them over and over and over in a loop and one way to get out of the loop is to correct the situation, which people like to try first, of course. Like, try to get back into that relationship, or community. Another way is to realize there's nothing you can do and move on, that's often called acceptance in meditation mindfulness terms. But it can be hard to get to acceptance if you feel like there's something you can do still, or something you could learn, you didn't learn everything you could yet and how to do that is hard. It's a lot of the chapters in the book I wrote, Debugging Your Brains. I'm not going to go into that right now, but there are things you can do to get out of the loop when you're stuck in the loop. I feel so awkward ever plugging my own stuff, but it's so relevant. That's what we're talking about here. [laughter] Y'all don't mind, I know. JACOB: No, I'm glad to hear about it. CASEY: Now let's go to reflections. So at this is the part of the episode where we each reflect on something that stuck out to us. Something we'll take with us. Something that was interesting from today's episode. ARTY: One of the things that stood out to me as we were talking about psychological safety, and these dynamics of leadership and who we choose as leaders as being important is this intersection between once we identify what the kinds of things are that we want to select for, that we can identify those people and then give them acknowledgement, the baton of an official hat

Enjoy part three of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed episodes 1 and 2 of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club where he was telling the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you are enjoying this interview series so far, and I hope also this motivates you guys to go over to the mixergy podcast and subscribe to everything that Andrew does. Like I said, he is my favorite interviewer and I think that what he does is second to none. So I hope that you guys enjoy him as well, and go subscribe to the mixergy podcast. But with that said, I'm going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back we will start into part 3 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview. Andrew: I actually got, I did see, I don't know, I didn't see the video you mentioned, but I did see what it looked like. Here's one of the first versions. He compared it to Clickfunnels, he said, I mean to Lead Pages. He said, “Look at how Lead Pages has their stuff all the way on the left, all the controls.” Oh you can't see it. Oh, let me try it again, let me see if I can bring up the screen because this is just, it's just too good. Hang on a second. I'm just constantly amazed how you're able to draw people to you. So this is the article from Lead Pages, this is the first landing page from Clickfunnels, this is what he created before, this is what you guys did together. This is your editor and h e said, “Look, if you're on Lead Pages, their controls, their editor is all the way on the left and it's just moving the main content to the right, which is not looking right. And I prefer something that looks like this, with a hundred pixels on the left, a hundred pixels…” I go, who knows a hundred pixels, it's like you, what is this? Russell: Dylan is obsessed with that type of stuff, it's amazing. Andrew: Obsessed. And you draw people like that. You draw people like Dave, who is just phenomenal. Dave, the traffic and conversion event that he was just talking about, is that the one that you went to? Dave: The one after that. Andrew: The one after that. Okay, we'll come back to that in a second then. So this became your next version, you brought on a new partner, and then you did a webinar with this guy. Who is this guy? Russell: It's Mike Filsaime, one of my first friends online. It actually wasn't a webinar, it was a live event. He was doing a live event in San Diego and he was like, “You have to come and sell Clickfunnels.” And I was like, “Nobody's buying Clickfunnels.” We had a free trial and like, we couldn't give it away. It was crazy. And he's like, “Well, you're on this website, you're picture is there, you have to come and sell Clickfunnels, and I need you to sell it for at least $1000.” Because the way it works, if you speak at someone's event, you sell something, you split the money 50/50. So he's like, “It needs to be at least $1000.” And I was all bummed out. I didn't want to do it. And the event actually started, but they were streaming it live online, so I was actually sitting at our office in Boise, watching it as I'm putting together my slides to create Clickfunnels, and then flew out to the event. And then we had a booth, and I don't know if I told you this, we had a booth and Lead Pages had a booth right across the little hallway, skinny hallway. And Todd's wife was manning our booth and then Lead Pages was right there, and it was so funny because she was not shy at all about talking about Lead Pages. She's like, “Yeah, we're like Lead Pages except for way better. We can do this and this.” And the other guy is sitting there like, right in front of her as she's telling them everything. And it was..anyway, I digress. It was pretty funny. Andrew: By the way, she's still at it. I saw a video that you guys created, you were talking to her and she goes, “I will be Clickfunnels.” I go wait a minute, you still had that fire, okay. So you were at that event. Russell: So we're at the event and there's probably, I can't remember, 150-200 people maybe in the room. So I got the slides up and Dylan was there and he was like, when we got to the funnels he was going to demo the editor, so I did the whole thing, showed the presentation and we demo'd Clickfunnels and at the end of the thing I sold. And I've been good onstage, but by far, that was the first time in probably 8 years that I'd seen a table rush, where people are stepping over the things, jumping around, trying to get to the back to buy as fast as they could. Andrew: What did you say to get them to want to do that? Russell: We made a really, I mean we gave the presentation, and gave a really good offer at the end. They get a year of Clickfunnels for free, plus they get training, plus they were going to get all these other things for $1000. Andrew: It was $1000 training and a year of Clickfunnels for free, and then they become long term members. And it was also called, Funnel Hackers? Russell: Funnel Hacks, yeah. Andrew: Funnel Hacks. And that's the thing that became like… Russell: The culture. Andrew: This culture, this tribe. It wasn't just they were signing to learn from you, they were becoming funnel hackers. That's it. Russell: I mean, that wasn't planned though. It was like, I was trying to think about a sexy name for the presentation, so I'm like ah, Funnel Hacks. And somebody owned FunnelHacks.com, and I'm like, I'm still doing the presentation that way. And then later we made t-shirts that said, “Funnel Hackers” and then now we got 4 or 5 people have tattooed that to their bodies, it's really weird. But anyway, that's what happened. We did that and we sold it and I remember going to dinner that night with the guys who were there, and Todd and his wife and everything. And we were all excited because we made some money finally. But I was just like, “You guys don't understand, like I've spoken on a lot of stages, and I haven't seen a table rush like that.” And I remember back, there was a guy, he passed away a couple of years ago, his name was Fred Catona. And he was a radio guy. He was the guy who did the radio commercials for, do you guys remember, it's got the guy from Star Trek, what's his name? Audience member: Priceline. Russell: Priceline. He did the Priceline radio commercials and made that guy a billionaire. And he told me when we were doing the radio ads, “This is what's going to happen. We're going to test your ad and if it works, I'm going to call you on the phone and let you know you're rich. Because if it works, it means you're going to be rich.” So I remember going to dinner that night and I told the guys, “Just so you guys know, we're rich.” And they're like, “What do you mean? We made $150,000.” I'm like, “No, no, no. The way people responded to that, I've never seen that in my life. We're rich.” The response rate from that, I've never seen. Andrew: And then you went to webinar after webinar after webinar. Russell: On the flight home that day I'm texting everybody I've ever met. “I got a hot offer, this webinar crushed it. We just closed whatever percent of the room at Filsaime's event. Who wants to do it?” And we started filling up the calendar. Andrew: And the idea was, and you told me you did 2 to 3 some days. And the idea was, they would sell somebody on a course, and then their members would then hear how your software and your funnel hacking technique would help up what they just bought and then they would sign up. You're still excited, I can see it in your face. And then this thing took off. And then you started doing an event for your culture, your community, and this guy spoke, Tony Robbins. Russell: Oh yeah, there's Tony. Andrew: One of the first ones. Was he at the very first one? Russell: No, he came to the third one, was the first one we had him come to. Andrew: Yeah? Why do an event? Why do your own live event? Russell: So we've done events in the past. I know events are good, but I'd sworn off them because the last event we did, I think we sold 3 or 400 tickets and less than 100 people showed up and I was so embarrassed. I was like, “We'll never do events again.” And as soon as this, as soon as Clickfunnels launched and it was growing, everyone's like, “We want to do a meet up. We should do an event.” All the customers kept asking. And against my, I didn't really want to do it, but at the same time I was launching my book, and I had won a Ferrari in this affiliate contest so I was like, “What if we did an event and we had the Ferrari there and we gave it away and then we're…” we had other ideas for giving away other cars and it became this big, exciting thing that eventually turned into an event. And that was the first Funnel Hacking Live event in Vegas, and we had about 600 people at that one that showed up. And that's where it all kind of, it all started. Andrew: And it built how much, how many people are you up to now? Russell: Last year we had 3500 people and we're on track to have about 5000 at this year's event. Andrew: 5000? Yeah. Russell: Those aren't free tickets. Each ticket's $1000, so it's…. Andrew: So how much is that in total revenue? Russell: From the event? Andrew: Yeah. Russell: So ticket sales, last year was $3 ½ million, this year will be over $5. But at the event we sell coaching so last year we made $13 million in coaching sales at the event as well. Andrew: Wow, would you come up here for a second, Dave? Do you guys know Dave? Yeah, everyone knows Dave. You know what's amazing… {Audience catcalls} Andrew: That's amazing. Dave: I don't know who that is. Andrew: A catcall. I saw a video, you guys have this vlog now, a beautifully show vlog. You guys went to sales force's conference, you're looking at the booths and in the video, do you remember what you did as you saw the different booths? Dave: I think that one I went and asked what the prices for each of the booths were. Andrew: Yes, and then you multiplied. And he's like, you're not enjoying the event, you're calculating ahead, how much. “10,000 that's 100,000….” It's like wow, right. You do this all the time? Dave: Yeah. It's a lot of money in an event like that. Andrew: And you think, and if this was not your event, you would be doing the same calculation trying to figure out how much they brought in today. Wowee. Alright when you went to sales force did you calculate how much money they probably did from their event? Dave: We were doing that the whole time, absolutely. Andrew: You saw the building, you had to know… Dave: Oh my gosh. 61 stories. Andrew: Why? Why do you guys want to know that? Why does, how does that… I want to understand your drive as a company and I feel like this is a part of it. Figuring out how much money other people are making, using that for fuel somehow. Tell me. Dave: I think it actually goes back to Russell and his wrestling days. We had the experience of going to Chicago right after that, and super just exhausted. And it was one of those things where he literally landed, we walked down and we're underneath the tarmac and all the sudden Russell goes from just being totally exhausted to a massive state change. Where he's literally right back where he was with his dad and he and his dad are walking that same path to go to, I think it was Nationals. And I saw Dan Usher, who was doing the filming, capturing that moment and it's that type of a thing for Russell. Where all the sudden it's the dream, where as soon as you see it, it can then happen. And Russell's just been amazing at modeling, and again the whole idea as far as just going at a rapid, rapid speed. I mean it's “Ready, fire, aim.” Andrew: It's not you gawking at the sales force, what's the sales force event called? Dave: Dream Force. Andrew: Dream force. It's not you gawking at how well Sales Force's event, Dream Force is doing, it's not you having envy or just curiosity, it's you saying, it's possible. This is us. That's it. Dave: It's totally possible. Andrew: It's totally possible. We could get there. And when you're sizing up the building, you even found out how much the building cost. Who does that? Most people go, “Where's the bathroom?” How much does the building cost? Dave: There's a number. Andrew: It's you saying, “We could maybe have that.” Dave: We can have that, yeah. Andrew: Got it. And so let's go back a little bit. I asked you about Traffic and Conversion because the very first Traffic and Conversion conference you went to, you guys were nobodies. Nobody came and saw you. Dave: We were put out in North 40 pasture, way, way far away. Andrew: And some people would say, “One day I'll get there.” you told Russell, “Today we're going to get there.” Dave: Well Russell wanted, he was speaking and so whenever you're speaking at an event, it's important that you fill a room, like this. And there's nothing worse than having an event and having no one show up. It's just the worst feeling in the world. And so he's like, “All we need, I gotta find some way of getting people into the event. I wish we had like some girls who could just hand out t-shirts or do something.” And I was like, we're in San Diego, that's like my home town. Russell: Dave's like, “How many do you need?” That's all he said. Dave: It's just a number. It comes down to a number. How many do you want? So we ended up having, within an hour or so we had 5 girls there who were more than happy to dance around and give out t-shirts and fill the room. Andrew: and the room was full? Dave: Packed. Andrew: Packed. And why wouldn't you say, “One day, the next time we come to Traffic and Conversion, the tenth time we're going to do it.” Why did it have to be right there? Dave: It's always now.   Andrew: It's always now. Dave: It's always now. Andrew: It's always now. It's never going to be the next funnel, it's never going to be the next product launch. I'm going to do whatever we can right now, and the next one, and the next one. That's it. That's who you are. Dave: That's how it works. Andrew: And now you're a partner in the business. $83 million so far this year, you got a piece of that. Dave: Yes. Do i? Russell: Yeah. Dave: Just checking. Andrew: Do you get to take profits home now? Dave: We do. Andrew: You do, you personally do? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Are you a millionaire? Dave: Things are really good. Andrew: Millionaire good from Clickfunnels? Dave: yes. Andrew: Really? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Wow. And you're another one. I was driving and I said, “What was it about Russell that made you work for him? What was it?” and you said, “I've never seen anyone implement like him.” Give me an example of early days, something that he implemented…you know what, forget that, let's not go back to Russell. As a team, you guys have gotten really good at implementing. Give me an example of one thing that you're just stunned by, we did it, it came out of nowhere, we could have been distracted by funnel software, we could have distracted by the next book, we did this thing, what is it? Dave: You're here on this stage with JP, and this was what 6 weeks ago? Andrew: and this whole thing just came from an idea I heard. You use Voxer. Why do you use Voxer? Russell: I don't know. Andrew: Because you like to talk into it. Russell: Yeah, and you can fast forward, you can listen at 4x speed, you can forward the messages to people really easily, it's awesome. Andrew: and it's just train of thought, boom, here's what I think we're going to…No, it's not that. I heard it's, “I have a secret project…” Russell: “I'll tell you guys about it later.” And they all start freaking out. “Tell us now.” Andrew: “Secret project. I don't know what it, it's going to be exciting.” They don't know what it is, going to be excited. Russell: Do you know how it started, this one? I was cleaning my wrestling room listening to you, and you were, I don't know whose event it was, but you were at the campfire, it sounded like. And you were doing something like this and I was like, I want my own campfire chat to tell our story. And then I was like, “Dave, we should do it.” And now we're here. So thanks for coming to our campfire…. Dave: That's how it happens. Andrew: And that's exciting to this day. Alright, thank you. Give him a big round, thank you so much. You know what, I didn't mean for this to come onstage, but I'm glad that it is. This made you laugh when you accidentally saw it earlier too. Why is this making you laugh? What is it? Russell: So we're not shy about our competitors, even when they're our friends. So one of the companies we're crossing out is his. That's why it's funny. Andrew: It's one of my companies. That's Bot Academy there. It's also a company I invest in, that octopus is ManyChat, I've been a very big angel investor and supporter of theirs. I'm not at all insulted by that, I'm curious about it. You guys come across as such nice, happy-go-lucky guys. Dave asked me if I want water, I said “Dave I can't have you give me any more things. I feel uncomfortable, I'm a New Yorker. Punch me, please.” So he goes, “Okay, one more thing. I'm going to give you socks.” So he gave me socks. Really, but still, you have murder in your eyes sometimes. You're crossing out everybody. This is part of your culture, why? Russell: It comes back, for me its wrestling. When I was wrestling it was not, I don't know, there's different mentalities right. And I did a podcast on this one time and I think I offended some people, so I apologize in advance, but if you're in a band and everyone gets together and you play together and you harmonize, it's beautiful. When you're a wrestler you don't do that. You know, you walk in everyday and you're like, those are the two guys I have to beat to be varsity. And then after you do that, you walk in and you're like, “Okay who are the people I have to beat to be in the region champ, and then the state champ, and then the national champ?” So for me, my entire 15 years of my life, all my focus was like, who's the next person on the rung that I have to beat? And it's studying and learning about them and figuring their moves and figuring out what they're good at, what they're bad at so we can beat them. Then we beat them and go to the next thing, and next thing, and next thing. So it was never negative for me, it was competition. Half the guys were my friends and they were doing the same thing to me, we were doing the same thing to them. I come from a hyper competitive world where that's everything we do. And I feel bad now, because in business, a lot of people we compete against aren't competitive and I forget that sometimes, and some people don't appreciate it. But that's the drive. It's just like, who do we, if I don't have someone to, if there's not someone we're driving towards, there's not a point for me. Andrew: And even if they're, even if I was hurt, “I accept it, I'm sorry you're hurt, Andrew. I still care and love you. We're going to crush you.” That's still there. Russell: And I had someone, so obviously InfusionSoft was one of our people we were targeting for a long, long time and I had a call with Clayton and someone on his team asked me, “Why do you hate Infusion Soft so much?” I was like, “I don't, you don't understand. I don't hate, I love Infusion Soft. I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for Lead Pages, I'm grateful for….” I told them, have you guys seen the Dark Knight, my favorite movie of all time? And it's the part where Batman and the Joker are there and Batman is like, asks the Joker, “Why are you trying to kill me?” And the Joker starts laughing and he's like, “I'm not trying to kill you. The reason I do this is because of you. If I didn't have you, there's no purpose behind it.” So for me it's like, if I don't have someone to compete against, why are we playing the game? So for me, that's why we're always looking… Andrew: It's not enough to say, it's not enough to just say “we're playing the game because we want to help the next entrepreneur, or the next person who's sick and needs to create…” no, it's not. Russell: That's a big part of it, but like, there's something… Andrew: Yeah, but it's not enough, it's gotta be both. Russell: My whole life there's, the competition is what drives me for sure. Andrew: And just like you're wrestling with someone, trying to beat them, but you don't hate them. You're not going to their house and break it down… Russell: Everyone we wrestled, we were friends afterwards. We were on the same Freestyle and Greco teams later in the season, but during, when we're competing, we're competing and everyone's going all at it. Andrew: Everyone's going all at it. That's an interesting way to end it. How much more time do we have? How much more time do we have? I'm going to keep going. Can I get you to come up here John, because I gotta get you to explain something to me? So I told you, I was online the other day, yeah give him a big round. I was online the other day, I don't even know what I clicked, I clicked something and then I saw that Russell's a great webinar person, everyone keeps telling me. Well, alright, I gotta find out how he does it. So I click over, “Alright, just give your email address and you can find out how..” Alright, I'll give my email address to find out how he became such a great webinar presenter. “Just give a credit card. It's only $4.95, so it comes in the mail.” It comes in the mail, that's pretty cool. Nothing comes in the mail anymore. Here's my credit card. It goes, “Alright, it's going to mail it out. Would you also like to learn how to use these slides? $400.” I go, no! I'm done. Russell: Welcome to the funnel. Andrew: Welcome to the funnel. I'm done. But I'm going to put in Evernote a link to this page so I don't lose it so I can come back. I swear. I did it. And this is my receipt for $4.95. Don't you ever feel like, we're beyond this? We're in the software space now, we're competing with Dropbox, we're not competing with Joe Schmoe and his ebook. And you're the guy who sold the, who bought the ad that got me. John: I know. Andrew: I asked you that. Do you ever feel a little embarrassed, “We're still in the info market space.”? John: No, I think it's the essence of what we do, of what Russell does. We love education. We love teaching people. I mean, the software is like the backend, but we're not software people. I mean, we sell software, but we teach people. All these people here and all the people at all of our events, they just want to learn how to do it better. Andrew: I don't believe it. John: Okay. Andrew: I believe in him. I don't believe in you. I believe that for you it's the numbers. Here's why I don't believe it. I'm looking in your eyes and you're like, “I'm giving the script. I'm good, I'm doing the script.” I see it in your eyes, but when I was talking to you earlier, no offense. This is why he does what he does. When I was talking to you earlier, you told me about the numbers, the conversion, how we get you in the sales funnel, how we actually can then modify…That's the exciting part. Don't be insulted by the fact that I said it. Know that we have marketers here, they're going to love you for being open about it. What's going on here? What's going on, keeping you in this space? John: Okay, from my perspective. Okay so, initially it was self liquidation on the front, which is what I was telling you. It was the fact that we were bootstrapped, we didn't have money to just like throw out there. We had to make sure we were earning enough money to cover our ads. And Russell had all the trust in the world in me, I don't know why he did, but he did. And he's just like, “Spend money, and try to make it self-liquidate.” I'm like, “Okay.” So we just had to spend money and hope that we got enough back to keep spending money. Andrew: And self-liquidate means buy an ad today and make sure that we make money from that ad right away and then software. John: Yeah. Andrew: And then you told, and then software's going to pay overtime, that's our legacy, that's our thing. And you told me software sucks for selling. Why? John: Software sucks, yeah. Andrew: Why? Everyone who's in info, everyone's who in education says, “I wish I was a software guy. Software is eating the world, they're getting all the risk back.” I walked through San Francisco; they think anyone who doesn't have software in their veins is a sucker. John: I asked the same thing to myself, you know. I was running ads, I'm like why can't I just run ads straight to the offer? Why do I have go to these info products? I want to get on the soft…. And then I was like, I feel like it's kind of like marriage. Like it's a big thing to say like, “You probably already built websites, but come over, drop everything you're doing and come over here and build websites over here on our thing.” And it's like, that's a hard pull. But “Hey, you want to build webinars? Here's a little thing for $5 to build webinars.” Now you're in our world, now we can talk to you, now you can trust us, now we can get you over there. Andrew: Got it. Okay, and if that's what it takes to get people in your world, you're going to accept it, you're not going to feel too good for that, you're just going to do it and grow it and grow it. John: Yeah. Andrew: What's your ad budget now? See now you're eyes are lighting up. Now I tapped into it. John: We spend about half a million a month. Andrew: half a million a month! John: Yeah. Don't tell the accountant. Andrew: Do you guys pay with a credit card? Do you have a lot of miles? John: Yeah, we do. In fact…. Andrew: You do! How many miles? John: In fact, the accountant came into my office the other day and said, “Next time you buy a ticket, use the miles.” Andrew: Are they with Delta, because I think you guys flew me out with Delta. John: Yeah, American Express is where we're spending all our money. Andrew: Wow. And you're a partner too? John: Yeah. Andrew: Wow, congratulations. John: Thank you. Andrew: I don't know you well enough to ask you if you're a millionaire, I'm just going to say congratulations. Give him a big round. John: Thank you. Andrew: Wow, you know what, I actually was going to ask the videographers to come up here. I wrote their names down, I got the whole thing and I realized I shouldn't interrupt them, because they're shooting video. But I asked them, why are you, they had this career where they were flying all over the world shooting videos for their YouTube channel. I'm sorry, I forgot their name, and I don't want to leave them out. Russell: Dan and Blake. Andrew: They were shooting YouTube videos, they were doing videos for other people. I said, “Why are you now giving it up and just working for Clickfunnels all the time? More importantly, why are you so excited about it?” And they said, “You know, it's the way that we work with Russell.” And I said, do you remember the first time that you invited them out to shoot something? What was it? Russell: It was the very first Funnel Hacking Live we ever had, and probably 2 weeks prior to that, one of our friends had an event and Dan had captured the footage, and he showed me the videos. “Did you check out my Ven Video?” I'm like, “Oh my gosh, that was amazing.” And I said “Who did it?” and he told me. So I emailed Dan and I was like, “Hey, can you come do that for Funnel Hacking Live?” And he's like, “What's Funnel Hacking Live?” So I kind of told him, and he's like, “Sure.” And it was like 2 weeks later and he's like, “What's the direction?” and I was like, “I don't know, just bring the magic man. Whatever you did there, do that here.” And that's kind of been his calling card since. He just comes and does stuff. Andrew: Bring the magic. He wants to have those words painted on the Toronto office you guys are starting. Literally, because he says you say that all the time. And the idea is, I want to understand how you hire. The idea is, “I'm going to find people who do good work, and I'm going to let them do it.” What happens if they wouldn't have done it your way? What happens if it would have gone a different direction? Russell: I see your question, and I'm not perfect. So I'm going to caveat that by, some of the guys on my team know that I'm kind of, especially on the design and funnel stuff, I'm more picky on that, because I'm so into that and I love it. But what I've found is when you hire amazing people like Todd for example, doing Clickfunnels. The times I tried to do Clickfunnels prior, build it was like, me and I'm telling developers, “here's what to do and how to do it.” And like there's always some loss in communication. With Todd, he's like, “I know exactly what I would build because I want this product too.” And then he just built it and he showed me stuff. And I'm like, “That's a good idea.” And he's like, “I did this too.” And I'm like, “That's a good idea.” And it's so much easier that way. So when you find the right people, it's not you giving them ideas, it's them coming to you with the ideas. And you're like, “that is a good idea. Go do it.” And it just makes, takes all the pressure off your back. So for us, and it's been fun because I look at, man, the last 15 years of all those different websites and the ups and the downs, the best people have always stuck. So we've got 15 years of getting the cream of the crop. It's kind of like, I'm a super hero nerd, but it's like the Avengers, at the end of, when Clickfunnels came about we had this Avenger team of people. And we're like, now we've put in our dues, now it's time to use all of our super powers to do this thing, and it all kind of came together. Andrew: Build it and build it up. And then as you were building it up, you then went to Sales Force. You guys invited me, you said, “Hey Andrew, we're in San Francisco, you're home town. Do you want to come out?” I said, “I'm going to be with the family.” And you said, “Good. Being with the family is better than hanging out with us.” But I still said, “What are you guys doing in San Francisco at Sales Force?” Because sales people don't need landing pages, yet you guys will probably find a way for them to need it. Then I saw this, this is the last video that I've got. There's no audio on it. I want you guys to look at their faces as they're looking up at these buildings, walking through the Sales Force office. Look, they're getting on the motorcycles in the lobby. They're looking all around like, “Oh gee.” Counting the buildings that are Sales Force labeled. Look at that! What are they doing? Not believing that this is even possible. And then just stopping and going, this is dream force. This is your dream. What did you get out of going to sales Force's event and seeing their office? Russell: Honestly, prior to Sales Force, I was kind of going through a weird funk in my business, because it was like, again there was the goals. So it was like, okay, we're going to do a million bucks, and then we did that. And then it's like, let's make 10 million a year. And then 50, and then this year we'll hit a hundred. And like, what's the next goal?  A billion, because a hundred million, 2 hundred million is not that big of a difference. And it was just kind of like, what's the point, what's the purpose? We've grown as big as any company that I know. And then last year, Dave and Ryan had gone out there and they were telling me stories like, “There's 170,000 businesses here.” And they were telling me all these things, and it sounded cool, but I didn't, and they were going crazy. You have to see this so you can believe it. But there's something about the energy about seeing something that makes it real. So this year I was like, I want to go and I want to see Benioff speak. I want to see the thing, the towers, I want to just understand it, because if I understand it, cool. Now we can reverse engineer and figure out how we can do it. So for me it was just like seeing it. I think in anything, any, as entrepreneurs too, if you're people believe that you can do it, you'll do it. If you believe you can lose weight, you'll lose 3eight. If you believe you can grow a company, and I don't feel like I believed that the next level was possible for us until I saw it. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is not ridiculous. Benioff's not, none of these guys are any smarter than any of us. It's just like, they figured out the path. It was like, okay let's look at the path. And then let's look at it and now we can figure out our path. Andrew: And seeing it in person did that for you? Russell: Oh yeah. It makes it tangible, it makes it like, it's like your physiology feels it, versus reading a book about it or hearing about it. It's like you see it and you experience it, and it's like it's tangible. Andrew: I told you, I asked people before they came in here, “What are you looking for?” and a few of them frustrated me because they said, “I just wanted to see Russell. I just want to see the event.” I go, “Give me something I could ask a question about.” But I think they were looking for the same thing that you got out of there. And I know they got it. I'm going to ask them to come up here and ask some questions, and I want to know about the future of Clickfunnels, but first I've got to just acknowledge that, that we are here to just kind of pick up on that energy. That energy that got you to pick yourself back up when anyone else would have said, “I'm a failure of a husband, I can't do this.” Go back. The tension that came from failing and almost going to jail as you said, from failing and succeeding, and failing again. And still, that is inspiring to see. I want to give the whole Clickfunnels family a big round of applause, please everybody.

Enjoy part two of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Alright everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope yesterday you enjoyed part one of the Clickfunnels start up story interview at the Dry Bar Comedy Club with Andrew. I love the way he interviews. I hope you're enjoying it as well. So we are going to dive right into part 2 of 4 from this interview. And again, if you're liking these interviews please, please, please take a snapshot on your phone, post it on Facebook, Instagram or wherever you do your posting and tag me in it and use hashtag marketing secrets so I can see that you're talking about it. I'd appreciate it. With that said, we're going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we'll start in on part 2 of the interview of the Clickfunnels start up story. Andrew: You know what, I've talked to a few of your people because they're so good, that Dave could really be a leader on his own, start his own company, he's got his own online reputation, the whole thing. I keep asking him, “Why do you work for Russell? What is it that lets you be second to Russell who's getting all the attention?” And I've got some answers and would you mind coming up here and in a second I'm going to ask you. No, come back here and I'll just bring you up in a second. Actually, you know what, it looks like you can come pretty fast. I thought that it would be a little bit more, I thought it would be more of a thing to get mics on people. And I realized if Collette can do it…. Okay honestly, dig down deep. Why did you want to stick with him? Brent: Through all that stuff? Andrew: Yeah. Brent: I don't know. My heart was just racing. As he started telling that story, it just makes me sick to my stomach. As you scroll down and look at all those businesses of, for years, every 30 days it was a new business launch, it was crazy. Always why I stuck with him is, you know, Collette mentioned that spirit. He's absolutely different than anybody else I've ever met in my entire life, a friend…. Andrew: Of what? Give me an example. Let's be more specific. Back then, not today, he's got this track record, adoring fans, I asked him to do an interview, everyone wants him on his podcast. Back then when it wasn't going so well. Give me an example that let you know this is a guy who's going to figure it out eventually, and I could possibly go down, watch him go to jail, but I believe that it's going to go up. Brent: Well, at the time when things are crashing, I saw him as the income stopped. And he had started a program that he loves, obviously wrestling, and he brought an Olympic wrestling coach to Boise and he brought all these amazing wrestlers to Boise and he wanted them to be able to train and get to the Olympics, he wanted to help them get there and live their dream. And you know, he was supplementing, at the time the business was paying for these guys to do a little bit of work for us, they weren't doing very much for us. But I saw him out of his own pocket, be paying for these guys. And I knew how hard he wanted to support them. And there was a day when my wife and I, we were struggling because I just, I was concerned about him financially because he was supplementing and trying to keep this business afloat, and we talked about things and I came into the office one day and I asked if I could talk to him and sat down, and kind of spoke in language that I normally don't speak in, I might have dropped a bomb or two. It was, I was so concerned I pretty much told him, I can't keep doing this, I can't keep watching you every month pulling the money that you saved for your family to try keep jobs for other people. I said, I'll leave if that helps you. And the fact that he stuck with people, that was the true character of who he is. Andrew: He kept paying your salary, kept sticking with you, and also constantly launching things. Brent: Absolutely. Andrew: That you've never seen anyone implement like him. Brent: You know some people call it faith or belief. He has this inherit belief that he can truly change people's lives. Andrew: That's it, even when he wasn't fully in control of his own. Alright thanks. Thanks for, give him a big round of applause, thanks for being up here. I feel like this is the thing that helped get you out of trouble and potentially, and getting out of potential jail. What is this business that you created? Russell: So we, during the time of that and this there was time, probably a year and a half-two years that we were trying all sorts of stuff. And again, marginal success on a lot of them, nothing like….and this was the one, we actually, this is before….I've done a lot of webinars and speaking from seminars and stuff like that, but this is right when auto webinars were coming out and Mike Filsaime had just done an auto webinar and a couple of people, and I felt like that was going to be the future thing. So we're like, what do we do the webinar on? We didn't know. And we flew out to Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher's office for two days and picked their brains, went to Rich Schefren's office for a day. And then on the flight home, I'm just like sick to my stomach. I couldn't figure out what's the thing that we could serve people the most right now. And on the flight home I was like, all the internet marketing stuff we do works for internet marketers, but we're way better at like local business. Like if a chiropractor implements like two things it works. Or if a dentist does it. But I was like, I don't want to be the guy going to dentists, but we could be the backbone for that. What if we created an opportunity where people could come in, we train them, and we connect them with the right tools and resources, and then they could go and sell to chiropractors and dentists. And that's what the idea was. We turned it into an offer called Dotcom Secrets Local, it was a thousand dollar offer at the time. Did the auto webinar for it, and it launched and within 90 days it had done over a million dollars, which covered payroll taxes and then got us out of debt to the point now we could stop and dream again, and believe again and try to figure out what we really wanted to do. Andrew: Dotcom Secrets Local to a million dollars within 90 days. And how did you find the people who were going to sign up for this. A lot of us will have landing pages like this, we'll have these funnels. How did you get people in this funnel? Russell: And this was pre-Facebook too, so it wasn't just like go turn Facebook ads on. But you know, one thing that happened over all the years prior to this, I'd met a lot of people and go to a lot of events and get to know everybody. And everyone I met, you know, you meet a lot of people who have lists, they have followings, they have different things like that. I just got to know them really, really well. And in the past I'd promote a lot of their products, they'd promote my products. So we had this one and we did it first to my list, and it did really well. So I then I then called them and I'm like, “Okay, I did this webinar to my list, these are the numbers, it did awesome. Do you want to do it to your list as well?” and they're like, “Oh sure. Sounds like a great offer.” We did that list and it did good for them too. And we told the next person and then, if you have a webinar, it's kind of like the speaking circuit, if you're good at speaking then people will put you all over the place. Same thing, if you have a webinar that converts, then it's easy to get a lot of people to do it. So as soon as that one worked and it converted well, then people lined up and we kept doing it, doing it, and doing it, and it was really quick to get to that spot pretty quick. Andrew: I went on Facebook recently and I saw webinar slides from Russell Brunson, I went to the landing page, Clickfunnels page and I signed up and I'll talk about it maybe later, but I bought it and I know other people did. And I've seen other people say, “Russell's webinar technique is the thing that just works.” I'm wondering how did you figure it out? How did you come across this and how did you build it and make it work? Russell: Yeah, so rewind back probably ten years prior to this, when I was first learning this whole business. I went to my very first internet marketing seminar ever, it was Armand Morin's Big Seminar. Did you ever go to Big Seminar? Anyway, I went to it and I had no idea what to expect. I thought it was going to be like, I showed up with my laptop and I was going to like, I thought we were a bunch of geeks going to do computer stuff. And the first person got onstage and started speaking and at the end of it he sold like a two thousand dollar thing. And I'd never seen this before. I saw people jumping up and running to the back of the room to buy it. And I'm like this little 23 year old kid and I was counting the people in the back of the room, doing the math, you know doing the math and I'm like, that guy made 60 thousand dollars in an hour. And the next guy gets up and does his presentation and I watch this for three days and I was like, I'm super shy and introverted, but that skill is worth learning. If someone can walk on a stage and make 100,000 dollars in an hour, I need to learn how to do that. So I started that. And it was really bad for the first probably 8 or 9 months. I tried to do it. I'd go to places and I just, I couldn't figure it out. And then I started asking the people who were good because you go there and all the speakers kind of talk and hang out, and I'd watch the ones that always had the people in the back of the room. And I'd ask them questions, I'm like, ‘What did I do wrong? I feel like I'm teaching the best stuff possible.' And they're like, ‘That's the problem, it's not about teaching, it's about stories, telling stories and breaking beliefs.” So for about the next two years I was about once a month flying somewhere to speak, and then when I would go I would meet all the speakers and find out what they were doing and I'd watch them and I'd take notes on the different things they were saying and how they were saying it. And then I kept taking my presentation and tweaking it, and tweaking it, and tweaking it. And you know, now 12 years later, I've done so many webinars, it kind of worked. The process works now. Andrew: You are a really good story teller and I've seen you do that. I've seen you do it, and I know you're going to do it even more. What I'm curious about is the belief system that you were saying, breaking people's…what was it that you said? Russell: False beliefs. Andrew: Breaking people's false beliefs. How do you understand what, like as you look at this audience, do you understand what some of our false beliefs are? Russell: If I knew what I was selling I could figure out for sure. Andrew: If you knew what you were selling. Alright we're selling this belief that entrepreneurship does work. And I know we're all going to go through a period like some of the ones that you had where things just aren't' working, other people aren't believing in us, almost failure, what is at that point, the belief system that we have to work on? What do you recognize in people here? Russell: So usually there's three core beliefs that people have. The first is about the opportunity itself right. So like with entrepreneurship, the first belief that people have is could I actually be an entrepreneur? And some people who actually believe that, they're like, I'm in. And that's an easy one. But for those who don't there's a reason and usually it's like, they saw a parent that tried to do it. And the parent tried to be an entrepreneur and wasn't able to and they saw that failure. Or they'd tried it in the past and they failed or whatever it is. So it's showing them that even if you tried in the past and showed different ways, let me tell you a story. And for me, I could show 800 different failures. But eventually you get better and you get better until eventually you have the thing that actually works. So I tell a story to kind of show that, to make them believe that, oh my gosh maybe I just need to try a couple more times. And then the second level of beliefs is like beliefs about themselves like, I'm sure it works for you, Russell or Andrew but not for me because I'm different. It's helping them figure out their false beliefs, and if you can break that, then the third one is like, then they always want to blame somebody else. “I could lose lots of weight but my wife buys lots of cupcakes and candy. So I could do it, but because of that I can't.” So then it's like figuring out how you break the beliefs of the external people that are going to keep them. Andrew: And how would you know what that is? How would you know who the external influencers are, that your potential customers are worried about? Russell: I think for most of us it's because the thing that we're selling is something that, one of our, Nick Barely said “Our mess becomes our message.” For most of us, what we're selling is the thing we struggled with before. So I think back about me as 12 year old Russell, watching Don Lepre, like what would have kept me back? And I would have been like, I can't afford classified ads. Like if you showed me how I can, if you could tell me a story of, oh my gosh I could afford classified ads. Now that belief's gone and now I'm going to go give you money. It's just kind of remembering back to the state that you were in when you were trying to figure this stuff out as well. Andrew: Who was who I met when we were coming in here that said that they were part of Russell's mastermind and I asked how much did you pay and he said, “I'm not telling you.” I can't see who that person was. But I know you got a mastermind, people coming in. I'm wondering how much of it comes from that? working with people directly, seeing them in the group share openly, and then saying, ah, this is what my potential customers are feeling? Russell: 100% At this point especially. People always ask me, “Where do you go, Russell, to learn stuff?” and it's my mastermind, because I bring, all the people come in and they're all in different industries and you see that. You see the road blocks that hold people back, but then they also share the stuff that they're doing and it's like, that's 100% now where I get most of my intell. Because people ask me, “Why, you're a software company, why in the world do you have a mastermind group?” And it's because the reason why our software is good is because we have the mastermind group, where they're all crowd sourcing, they're doing all this stuff and bringing back to us, and then we're able to make shifts and pivots based on that. Andrew: Somehow we just lost Apple, but that's okay. It's back, good. There we go. This is the next thing, Rippln. Russell: I forgot I put that one in there. Andrew: I went back and I watched the YouTube video explaining it. It's a cartoon. I thought it was a professional voice over artist, no it's you. You're really comfortable getting on stage and talking. But basically in that video that you guys can see in the top left of your screen, it's Russell, through this voice over and cartoon explaining, “Look, you guys were around in the early days of Facebook, you told your friends, here's how many friends you would have had, for the sake of numbers, let's say you told 7 people and let's say they told 7 people, and that's how things spread. And the same thing happened with Pinterest and all these other sites. Don't you ever wish that instead of making them rich by telling stuff, you made yourself rich? Well here's how Rippln comes in.” and then you created it. And Rippln was what? Russell: So Rippln was actually one of my friend's ideas, and he is a network marketing guy so he's like, “We're building a network marketing program.” And I'd like dabbled in network marketing, never been involved with it. And he came and was like, “Hey, be part of this.” And I was like, “No.” and then he sold us on the whole pitch of the idea, network marketers are really good at selling you on vision, and I was like, “Okay, that sounds awesome.” And then my role was to write the pitch. So I wrote the pitch, did the voice over, did the video, and then we launched it and we had in six weeks, it was like 1.5 million people signed up for Rippln, and I thought it was like, “This is the thing, I'm done.” My down line was like half of the company. And I was like, when this thing goes live, it's going to be amazing. And then the tech side of it, what we're promising people in this video that the main developer ended up dying and he had all the code. So they had to restart building it in the middle of this thing. And it was like thing after thing and by the time it finally got done, everyone had lost interest. It was like 8 months later, and I think the biggest check I got was like $47 for the whole thing. And I was just like, I spent like 6 months of my life. It was like a penny a day. It was horrible. Andrew: I'm just wondering whether I should ask this or not. Russell: Go for it. Andrew: So I stopped asking about religion, but I get the sense that you believe that there's a spiritual element here that keeps you from seeing, my down line is growing, the whole thing is working. Is any of this, does it feel divinely inspired to you? Be honest. Russell: Business or…? Andrew: Business, life, success, things working out, so much so that when you're at your lowest, you feel like there's some divine guidance, some divine hand that says, “Russell, it's going to work out. Russell, I don't know if I got you, but I know you got this. Go do it.” I feel that from you and I… Russell: I 100% believe that. Andrew: You do? Russell: Every bit of it. I believe that God gives us talents and gifts and abilities and then watches what we do with it. And if we do good then he increases our capacity to do more. And if we do good with it, increases our capacity… Andrew: if you earn it? If you do good, if you use what God gives you, then you get more. So you think that that is your duty to do that and if you don't do more, if you don't pick yourself up after Rippln, you've let down God. Do you believe that? Is that it? Or that you haven't lived up to… Russell: Yeah, I don't think I feel that I've let down God, but I definitely feel like I haven't lived up to my potential, you know. But also I feel like a lot of stuff, as I was putting together that document, all the pages, it's interesting because each one of them, looking in hindsight, each built upon the next thing and the next thing. And there's twice we tried to build Clickfunnels and each one was like the next level, and each one was a stepping stone. Like Rippln, if I wouldn't have done Rippln, that was my very first viral video we ever created. I learned how to pitch things and when we did the Clickfunnels initial sales video, because I had done this one, I knew how to do this one. So for me, it's less of like I let down God, as much as like, it's just like the piece, what are you going to do with this? Are you going to do something with it? It doesn't mean it's going to be successful, but it means, if you do well with this, then we're going to increase your capacity for the next step, and the next thing. But we definitely, especially in times at the office, we talk about this a lot. We definitely feel that what we do is a spiritual mission. Andrew: You do? Russell: 100% yeah. I don't think that it's just like, we're lucky. I think the way that the people have come, the partnerships, how it was created is super inspired. Andrew: You know what, a lot of us are selling things that are software, PDF guide, this, that, it's really hard to find the bigger mission in it. You're finding the bigger mission in Funnels. What is that bigger mission? Really, how do you connect with it? Because you're right, if you can find that bigger meaning then the work becomes more meaningful and you're working with become, it's more exciting to work with them, more meaningful to do it. How did you find it in funnels? What is the meaning? Russell: So for us, and I'm thinking about members in my inner circle, so right now as of today I think we had 68,000 members in Clickfunnels, which is the big number we all brag about. But for me, that's 68,000 entrepreneurs, each one has a gift. So I think about, one member I'll mention his name's Chris Wark, he runs chrisbeatcancer.com and Chris was someone who came down with cancer and was given a death sentence, and instead of going through chemo therapy he decided, ‘I'm going to see if I can heal myself.” And he did. Cleared himself of cancer. And then instead of just being like, ‘cool, I'm going to go back into work.' He was like, ‘Man I need to help other people.' So he started a blog and started doing some things, and now he's got this thing where he's helped thousands and thousands of people to naturally cure themselves of cancer. And that's one of our 68,000 people. Andrew: See, you're focusing on him where I think a lot of us would focus on, here's one person who's just a smarmy marketer, and here's who's creating….but you don't. That's not who you are. Look, I see it in your eyes and you're shaking your head. That's not it at all, it's not even a put on. Russell: It's funny because for me it's like, I understand because I get it all the time from people all the time, “Oh he's this slimy marketer.” The first time people meet me, all the time, the first time their introduced, that's a lot of times the first impression. And they get closer and they feel the heart and it's just like, “oh my gosh, I had you wrong.” I get that all the time from people. Andrew: Brian, sorry Ryan and Brad, are either of them here? Would one of you come up here? Yeah, come on up. Because they felt that way, right? Russell: I don't know about them. I know who you're thinking about. Audience member: I think it's Theron. {Crosstalk} Andrew: No, no stay up here, as long as you're here. Theron come on up. Audience member: If it wasn't me, then I'm going to sit back in the seats. Andrew: Are you nervous? Audience member: A little bit. Is there another Ryan and Brad? Russell: Different story, another story. Do you want to come up? Theron had no idea we were bringing him onstage. Andrew: Come on over here. Let's stand in the center so we can get you on camera. Does this help? Russell: Do you want me to introduce Theron real quick? Andrew: Yeah, please. Russell: So Theron is one of the Harmon Brothers, they're the ones who did the viral video for us. Andrew: I heard that you felt that he was a scam. What was the situation and how did you honestly feel? Theron: I don't know that it…well… Russell: Be honest. Theron: I know, I don't think that I felt that Clickfunnels itself was a scam, Russell: Just Russell. Theron: But that it just felt like so many of the ways that the funnels were built and the types of language they were using, it felt like it was that side of the internet. So I became very, well basically we were kind of in a desperate situation, where we had a video that had not performed and not worked out the way we wanted it to work out. Andrew: The video that you created for Russell? Theron: No, another client. Andrew: Another client, okay. Theron: And so our CEO had used Clickfunnels product to help drive, I think it was attendance to a big video event. And so he had some familiarity with the product, so he goes to Russell and at the same time Russell's like, “I'm a big fan of you guys.” So he's coming to us and these things are happening. Yeah, it was almost the same day. So we're thinking like this and we're like, “Well, they seem to really know how to drive traffic, to really know how to drive conversion. And we feellike we know how to drive conversion as well, but for some reason we missed it on this one.” So we're like, “Well, let's do a deal.” Andrew: What do you mean missed it? Okay, go ahead, go through to the end. Theron: We were failing our client. We were failing on our client. We weren't giving them and ROI. So we said, let's do a deal with Russell and we'll have our internal team compete with his team, and we're humble enough to say we're failing our client. We want our client to succeed, let's bring in their team and see if they can make a funnel that can bring down the cost for acquisition, bring up the return on investment for our client, and they were able to do it.  And then we said, what we'll do is we'll write a script, we'll take you through our script writing process, but we don't want to do the video because we don't want to be affiliated with you. Russell: The contract said, “You can't tell anyone ever that the Harmon Brothers wrote the script for you.” Andrew: Wow, because you didn't want to be associated with something that you thought was a little too scammy for… Theron: Yeah, we just didn't want our brand kind of brought down to their brand, which is super arrogant and really wrong headed. And in any case, so we go into this script writing training, and I wasn't following his podcast, I wasn't listening to enough. I mean, read Dotcom Secrets, those kinds of things are like, well, there's some really valuable stuff there, this is really interesting. A nd then as we got to know each other and really start to connect, like you said, heart to heart. And to feel what he's really about, and the types of team, the people that he surrounds himself with, I was like, wow, these are really, really good people. And they have a mission here that they feel, just like we feel that about our own group. And in any case, by the end of that 2 day retreat we're like, all off in private saying, “First of all we like what we've written and second of all, we'd really like to work with these guys and I think we're plenty happy being connected to them and associated with them.” So it's been a ride and a blessing ever since. Russell: We're about to start video number two with them. Andrew: You what? Russell: We're about to start video number two with them right now. Theron: Anyway, we love them. Andrew: Alright, give him a big round, yeah. Thanks. This was pivotal for you guys. Lead Pages, there's an article about how Lead Pages raised $5 million, and you saw that and you thought… Russell: Well, what happened was Todd, so Todd's the cofounder of Clickfunnels, and he was working with us at the time and he would fly to Boise about once a quarter and we'd work on the next project, the new idea. And that morning he woke up and he saw that, and then he forwarded me the article. And he's Atlanta, so it's east coast, so I'm still in bed. And he's got a 4 hour flight to Boise and he's just getting angry, because Todd is, Todd's like a genius. He literally, when he landed in Boise and he saw me and he's like, “We can build Lead Pages tonight. I will clone, I will beat it. We're going to launch this, this week while we're here.” He's that good of a developer. He, I've never seen someone code as fast and as good as him. He's amazing. So he comes in, he's mad because he's like, “This is the stupidest site in the world. We could literally clone this. Let's just do it.” And I'm like, “Yes, let's clone it.” And we're all excited and then he's like, “Do you want me to add any other features while I'm doing it.” And I'm like, ‘Oh, yes. We should do this, and we should do this.” And then the scope creep from the marketer comes, and we ended up spending an entire week in front of a whiteboard mapping out all my dreams, “If we could do this and this and what kind of shopping cart, and we could do upsells, and what if we could actually move things on the page instead of just having it sit there. And what if…” and Todd's just taking notes and everything. And then he's like, “Okay, I think I could do this.” And he told me though, “If I do this, I don't want to do this as an employee. I want to do this as a partner.” And at first I was like, ugh, because I didn't want to do the partnership thing. And then the best decision I've ever made in my life, outside of marrying my wife was saying yes to Todd. Said, “Let's do it.” And then he flew home and built Clickfunnels. Andrew: Wow. And this is after trying software so much. I have screenshots of all the different, it's not even worth going into it, of all the different products you created, there was one about, it was digital repo, right? Russell: That was a good idea. Andrew: Digital Repo, man. What was…. Russell: So I used to sell ebooks and stuff, and people would steal it and email it to their friends and I'd get angry. Andrew: Can I read this? How to protect every type of lowlife and other form of human scum from cheating you from the profits you should be making by hijacking, stealing, and illegally prostituting….your online digital products. Russell: Theron, why did you think we were…..Just kidding. So no, it was this really cool product where you take an ebook and it would protect it, and if somebody gave it to their friend, you could push a button and it would take back access. It was like the coolest thing in the world, we thought. Andrew: And there was software that was going to attach your ad to any other software that was out there. There was software that was going to, what are some of the other ones? It's going to hit me later on. But we're talking about a dozen different pieces of software, a dozen different attempts at software. What's one? I thought somebody remembered one of them. They're just the kind of stuff you'd never think of. There was one that was kind of like Clickfunnels, an early version of Clickfunnels for landing pages. Why did you want to get into software when you were teaching, creating membership sites? What was software, what was drawing you to it? Russell: I think honestly, when I first learned this internet marketing game, the first mentor I had, the first person I saw was a guy name Armand Morin and Armand had all these little software products. Ecover generator, sales letter generator, everything generator, so that's what I kept seeing. I was like, I need to create software because he made software. In fact, I even shifted my major from, I can't remember what it was before, to computer information systems, because I was like, I'm going to learn how to code, because I couldn't afford programmers. And then that's just kind of what I'd seen. And then I was trying to think of ideas for software. And every time I would get stuck, instead of trying to find something to do, I'd be like let me just, let me just hire a guy to go build that, and then I can sell it somebody else as well. So that's kind of how it started. Andrew: And it was a lot of different tools, a lot of different attempts, and then this one was the one that you went with. I think this is an early version of the home page, basically saying, “Coming soon, sign up.” The first one didn't work out. And then you saw someone else on a forum who had a version that was better. What was his name? This is I think Dylan Jones. Russell: Oh you're talking about the editor, yes. Okay, so the story was, Todd built the first version of Clickfunnels and Dylan who became one of our cofounders, I'd been working with Dylan as a designer for about 6 years prior. And he his hands, and we talked about this earlier, he is the best designer I've ever seen in my life, he is amazing. He would, but he's also, this is the pros and cons of Dylan. He, I've talked about this onstage at Funnel Hacking Live, so I have no problem saying this. He would agree. But I would give him a project, and I couldn't hear, he wouldn't respond back to me, and I wouldn't hear from him for 2 or 3 months, and then one day in the middle of the night he messaged me, “Hey, rent's due tomorrow. Do you have any projects for me?” and I'd be so mad at him, and I look back at every project we'd done in the last 3 or 4 months that other designers had done, and I'd just resend him all the lists, just boom, give him 12 sites and I'd go to bed. I'd wake up 5 or 6 hours later and all of them were done, perfectly, amazing, some of the best designs ever, and then he'd send me a bill for whatever, and then I'd send him money and he'd disappear again for like 5 months. And I could never get a hold of him. I'd be like, “I need you to tweak something.” And he was just gone. And that was my pattern for 6 years with him. And then fast forward to when Todd and I were building Clickfunnels, we were at Traffic Conversion and we were up in the hotel room at like 3 in the morning trying to, we were on dribble.com trying to find a UI designer to help us, and we couldn't get a hold of all these people, and all the sudden on Skype Dylan popped in, I saw his thing pop up. I was like, “Todd, Dylan just showed up.” And he's like, “Do you think he needs some money?” I'm like, “I guarantee he needs money.” So I'm like, “Hey man!” And Dylan messaged back. He's like, “Hey.” I'm like, “Do you need some money?” and he's like, “Yeah, you got any projects?” I'm like, “Yes, I do.” I'm like, “We built this cool thing, it's called Clickfunnels, but the UI is horrible and the editor is horrible and there's any way we could hire you for a week to fly to Boise and just do all the UI for every single page of the app?” and he kind of said no at first because, “I'm developing my own website builder. I might have spent 6 years on it, so I can't do it.” Andrew: It was this, he had something that was essentially Clickfunnels, right? Russell: No, no. It was just pages though, so it'd just do pages, there was no funnels. Andrew: Right, closer to Lead Pages. Russell: Lead Pages, but amazing. You could move things around. But he did tell me that, “I'm working on something.” So eventually we got him to come, flew to Boise, spent a week, did all of our UI, and then we went and launched our beta to my list. So we launched the beta, got some signups, and then a week before the launch, launch was supposed to happen, all the affiliates were lined up, everything was supposed to happen. He sends me, I don't know if he sent you the video, but he sends me this little video that's like a 30 second video of him demoing the editor he'd built. And I probably watched that video, I don't know, at least a hundred times. And I was just sick to my stomach because I was like, “I hate Clickfunnels right now. I can't move things on my pages, I can't do anything.” I was just, and I sent it to Todd and then I didn't hear from him for like an hour, and he messaged me back and he's like, “I'm pissed.” I'm like, “Me too.” And I'm like, “What do we do?” and I was like, “We have to have his editor or I don't even want to sell this thing.” And I called Dylan and I'm like, “Would you be willing to sell?” and he's like, “No, I'm selling it and we're going to sell it for $100.” It was like $100 this one time for this editor that designed all the websites. I was like, “Dude, it is worth so much more than that. Please?” and we spent all night going back and forth negotiating. And finally, we came to like, “I will give you this editor if I can be a cofounder and be a partner.” And Todd and I sat there, brainstorming and figured out if we could do it and finally said yes. And then him and Dylan and Todd flew back to Boise and for the next week just sat in a room with a whole bunch of caffeine and figured out how to smush Dylan's editor into Clickfunnels to get the editor to be the editor that you guys know today.

This is the sweeps week episode, the epic crossover episode, the mega episode! We have a very special episode as Chris, and Steph teamed up with the hosts of three other podcasts to bring you one giant, mega Ruby episode! In this episode, you'll hear from the hosts of Remote Ruby, Rails with Jason, and Brittany Martin, the host of the Ruby on Rails podcast. They cover the origins of their shows, their experiences as hosts, and why podcasting is so important in keeping the Ruby community thriving. Remote Ruby (https://remoteruby.transistor.fm/) Rails with Jason (https://www.codewithjason.com/rails-with-jason-podcast/) Ruby on Rails podcast (https://5by5.tv/rubyonrails) *Transcript: * STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. This week we have a very special episode as Chris, and I teamed up with the hosts of three other podcasts to bring you one giant, mega Ruby episode! In this episode, you'll hear from the hosts of Remote Ruby, Rails with Jason, and Brittany Martin, the host of the Ruby on Rails podcast. This episode was so much fun to record, and we have Brittany Martin to thank as she organized and moderated this special event. So without further ado, here is the mega Ruby episode. BRITTANY: Welcome, everyone. We have a whopping seven podcast hosts recording today. So, listeners, you are in for a treat. This is the sweeps week episode, the epic crossover episode, the mega episode. We're going to need our editor to insert some epic sound effects right here. Announcer: The mega episode. BRITTANY: So let's go ahead and introduce the crew today. I am Brittany Martin from the Ruby on Rails Podcast. CHRIS OLIVER: I'm Chris Oliver from Remote Ruby. JASON CHARNES: I am Jason Charnes, also from Remote Ruby. ANDREW: I am Andrew Mason, also from Remote Ruby. STEPH: And I'm Stephanie Viccari from The Bike Shed. CHRIS TOOMEY: I'm Chris Toomey from The Bike Shed. JASON SWETT: And I'm Jason Swett from Rails with Jason BRITTANY: Today, we're going to cover the origins of our shows, our experiences as hosts, and why podcasting is so important in keeping the Ruby community thriving. Now I know personally, I really enjoy the origin story behind Remote Ruby. So, Chris Oliver, could you kick us off with that? CHRIS OLIVER: Yeah, we can go back maybe to the first time that Jason and I met, which was Jason emailed me out of the blue and was like, "Hey, are you going to be at RailsConf?" And I wasn't planning on it, but it was over in Kansas City, like four hours away from me. I was like, "No, I'm not going, but I'll meet you." So we went and drove over there and met and have been friends ever since. And Jason had the idea of doing an online meetup. And I'll let him explain where that started and turned into the Remote Ruby Podcast. JASON CHARNES: I thought it would be a good idea. There weren't any online meetups. This was pre even the idea of shutting down the world for a pandemic. And maybe I was just too soon because I got Chris to speak at the first one, and we had 40, 50 people. I spoke at the next one, and there were 20. And by the third one, there were five of us. So it wasn't really a super sustainable thing for me to do. So Chris and I got together and said, "What if we tried podcasting?" Chris, you hadn't really done your own podcast at that point, had you? CHRIS OLIVER: No, I don't think so. And you and I were just having calls every week or whatever just to hang out and chat. And we were like, why don't we just record that and publish that as a podcast? And here we are. JASON CHARNES: Yeah. So we've been doing that. I think we started in 2018, so yeah, three years in June, and somehow people still keep listening to us talk but probably because we brought along our friend, Andrew. ANDREW: Wow. Okay. No, that's not true. But yes, I was a guest on Remote Ruby before I joined as a host. And not to get into the details, but I was on another podcast, and something went down, and I no longer was on that podcast anymore. And Chris and Jason were like, "Do you want to come hang out with us?" And I was like, [chuckles] "Absolutely." So I started doing that, and at the same time, I also started The Ruby Blend with Nate Hopkins and Ron Cooke. And so we were doing that for a while until that had to tragically shut down. But I'm still here with Jason and Chris. I guess I should also mention that Jason Swett gave me my start in podcasting a month or two after I started full-time as a Rails developer on a now archived show called The Ruby Testing Podcast. BRITTANY: Which is the perfect segue because Jason Swett was also my first opportunity to guest on a podcast. So I was already hosting, but I hadn't guested, which is kind of the opposite order. So, Jason, do you want to tell the origin of where Rails with Jason came from? JASON SWETT: Sure. I'd been involved with podcasting since around 2016. I somehow ended up on the Ruby Rogues Podcast and was on there for maybe a year or so. And then, somehow, I got the idea that I could start my own podcast. And as an experiment, I started a podcast that I called The Ruby Testing Podcast, which I figured was sufficiently narrow that I could get some traction. And to my surprise, guests actually said yes to coming on the show. And also, to my surprise, people actually listened to the podcast. That gave me some confidence. So maybe a year later, I broadened, and I changed from The Ruby Testing Podcast to just Rails with Jason. And I have been doing that for something like two years. BRITTANY: That's fantastic. I want to move to probably our most experienced podcast veteran, and that would be Chris Toomey. When I was learning how to code, I was listening to Giant Robots and then was excited for the transition that The Bike Shed took. Chris, I would love to hear the story of what it was like taking over a really popular podcast and really maintaining the drive behind it. CHRIS TOOMEY: So, as you mentioned, I had done a little bit of podcasting. It was about a six-month run where I was a co-host on Giant Robots, which was the original podcast of thoughtbot. And that was more in the business and sort of how do we build a software company? So at that point, I was running Upcase, which was the subscription learning platform that thoughtbot had. So I was talking about the inner details of the business, and the marketing tests, and A/B tests and things like that that I was doing. And every week, I was sharing my MRR rather transparently in that thoughtbot way that we do. I did that for, like I said, about six months and then took a while off. And in the background, thoughtbot had started up a new podcast called The Bike Shed, and that started October 31st of 2014. So The Bike Shed has been going for a long time now, and that was hosted by Derek Pryor and Sage Griffin. And they ran that for a number of years. I think it was about four years that the two of them worked collectively on that. But at some point, they both moved on from thoughtbot, and there was an opportunity for new hosts to step in. So I took over in August of 2018. So I've been doing this now for about three years. And so, for that first year, I took the opportunity to do a tour around thoughtbot and talk with many different individuals from the company and a handful of people external to thoughtbot. But I knew that there were so many great voices and ideas and points of view within thoughtbot that I really wanted to spend some time getting to know more of them personally and then sharing that as much as I could with the existing audience that The Bike Shed had. But secretly, all along, I was looking for a person to hang out with all the more so, and Steph was the person that was a perfect choice for that. And so, for the past two years, Steph and I have been chatting. And I will send it over to Steph to share a little bit of her point of view on that transition. But from my point of view, it's been fantastic. STEPH: I still remember exactly when we had the conversation. You were running The Bike Shed and doing an incredible job of just having weekly guests. And then you'd reached out to me and said, "Hey, would you be interested in doing an episode?" And I thought, "No, absolutely not. I can't podcast. I can't begin to do this." So you continued to convince me. And finally, you said something that resonated where you were like, "Well, we can just show up and record, and we don't have to publish. We can just see how it goes." I was like, that's a perfect safety net. I'm into that. So I showed up, and I think the first episode that you and I recorded ended up being titled What I Believe About Software. And it was a lot of fun. I realized I have a lot of things to say. And after that, I think it was another month or so. You continued interviewing more guests, but then you reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to be a co-host. And at that point, I was super jazzed about it, and it's been wonderful. It's been a roller coaster. I have learned a ton. BRITTANY: I'm kind of seeing a pattern here where over the last three years, it seems like Remote Ruby came into place, Bike Shed transitioned. That's when I took over as host of the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast. We're going to call it the golden era of the Ruby Podcasts. But for me, I probably have the longest-running podcast. It was started back in 2009 on the 5by5 Network, but it's gone through many different hosts. And so, I took over roughly about three and a half years ago as the main host from Kyle Daigle. And then, just a couple of weeks ago, as I announced on my podcast, we took the podcast independent. We are now just The Ruby on Rails Podcast. And I'm starting to change the model where I'm bringing in more co-hosts. So that way, I can get those regular updates that I really appreciate on all these podcasts we have featured on the show today. I am curious. I want to talk about how we put together the episodes and plan out how everything's going to go down. I know for me, I'm currently a mix of interviews and co-host episodes. So I'd love to hear from Andrew. How do you plan out what Remote Ruby is going to be week to week? ANDREW: This is an easy question because we don't at all. We don't plan. We do have some guests that come on, and sometimes, they may get their Zoom link the day of; who's to say? But we really don't have a plan. We don't talk about what we're going to talk about beforehand. We all just kind of show up, and I think we have that kind of relationship and flow where it always just works. JASON CHARNES: And I think part of that came from actually how Chris and I started the show because we were trying to make it as low stress as possible because we knew if we put a lot of pressure on it, we would stop doing it. Our first episodes were YouTube live links that we just shared out. And then in our next episodes, we were like, oh, we should start using some software to do this. And then eventually, we got an editor, but that same core of let's just keep it fun for better or for worse, I think, also affects our planning. BRITTANY: I've been lucky in the sense that I have guests sit on all three of the episodes. And I do want to give a compliment to The Bike Shed because it is very well run and very well planned. So I want to kick it over to Steph as to how putting together a Bike Shed episode looks. STEPH: Oh, thank you. That's wonderful to hear, by the way. That's wonderful feedback. So we predominantly use Trello to organize our thoughts. So we will have...and as we're capturing community questions that are coming in, so we will capture those on the board. And then, we will have a ticket that represents a particular episode. Usually, on the day of, we'll share some thoughts about, hey, these are the broad topics I'm interested in. And there's usually some hot takes in there, which is fun because the other person doesn't know exactly what's coming, and we can have real honest conversations on the mic. And then, every so often, we'll grab a beer, and we'll go through that list. And we'll chat through what sparks joy. What do we want to talk about? What would we like to respond to? And that's pretty much how we organize everything that we discuss. Chris, is there anything I've left out that you want to add? CHRIS TOOMEY: I think that mostly covers it. We do occasionally have interviews just as a way to keep some variety and different things going on, but primarily it's the sort of what's new in your world? And I find that those episodes are the ones that I think are the most fun to record for Steph and I when it really feels like a sincere conversation. I've recently taken to a segment I call good idea, terrible idea where I'm like, "I'm actually considering this, Steph. What do you think?" And live on-air, I'm getting Steph's feedback, and generally, we're very aligned. But every once in a while, she's like, "That's a terrible idea. Don't do that." And I love those, and I love being able to share that because I think it's really easy to talk about, you know, here's a list of things that are true about software, but really, everything depends. And it's all the nuance. And so, being able to share some of our more pointed experiences and then share the conversation that we have over those is hopefully very valuable to the audience but definitely the thing that I enjoy the most. BRITTANY: So kicking it over to Jason Swett, I really enjoy the interviews that you do. I'm curious, how do you select guests? JASON SWETT: Well, thanks. Selecting guests is tough. I had Peter Cooper on the other day, and I was telling him that I feel like every guest that I get on the show is the last guest I'm ever going to be able to get on the show. But somehow, I keep finding more and more guests. Early on, it was relatively easy because I would just find book authors, or if somebody else does podcasting, then it's fairly obvious okay, you're the kind of person who does podcasts, so I'll invite you. But it's a little bit tough because I don't want to invite people who aren't into podcasting and would be really thrown, although sometimes that happens. But let's see, sometimes I send an email out to my email list, and I'm like, "Hey, I'm looking for guests for my show." Sometimes I just tweet that I'm looking for guests. And sometimes I get some really interesting guests from surprising places. But at least in the start, it was looking for those authors and podcasters and the people who are known in the Ruby community. BRITTANY: I know for me, I strive to have at least 50% of my interviews be with people who've never been on a podcast before. And so that usually involves the top of the episode they're dry heaving into a paper bag. And I'm explaining to them, don't worry, about halfway through the episode, you're not going to remember that you're recording anymore. It'll be fine. And you know what? It's always fine. And so, I do love hearing from a wide variety from the Ruby community just because it really proves just how big it is. So I'm curious, could you host the podcast that you are currently hosting now if you weren't actively working in Ruby? ANDREW: I could because Chris is the one that has all the clout. I could sit back and make dumb jokes and memes during it. And as long as Chris is there, I think we'll be good. JASON SWETT: Yeah, I think I could because a good majority of what we talk about on Rails with Jason actually has nothing to do with Rails, so that would probably actually work out. STEPH: I think yes is the answer. While a lot of our conversations do focus around Ruby and Rails, we often use a lot of other languages and tools, and those are a lot of fun to talk about. So I think I would just talk about whatever new tool or language that I'm using. So I think yes, it would just take a slightly different form but would still be at its core the same where we're still talking about our daily experiments and adventures in web development. BRITTANY: I agree with you, Steph. I will say that it seems like Chris Oliver and Chris Toomey have an endless well of things to talk about just based on what they do day-to-day. CHRIS TOOMEY: I try and go on adventures and then share as much as I can. But to resonate with what Steph was saying there, we try to make the show more generally about software, and it happens to be that it's grounded in Ruby on Rails because the vast majority of the work that we do is in that. And I just recently started a new project. I was given the choice of I could pick any technology I want, and it remains the technology that makes sense to me to be the foundation of an application that I want to maintain for years and years and years. So, on the one hand, I think I could definitely talk about software more generally. I think I'm doing that most of the time. But at the other end of the spectrum, but it's always going to be based on Ruby because I haven't found a thing elsewhere in the world that is better than that. CHRIS OLIVER: I completely agree with that. I probably have a little bit of a unique thing doing a screencast every week. A lot of those are based on I'm building some project, and I need to build some random feature like Stripe Checkout. And that's a good one to do a screencast on and implement in the project. And then, we can also talk about the decisions along the way on the podcast, which is kind of nice. BRITTANY: Yeah, it feels like every week, Chris Oliver is like, yeah, I've created a new open-source library, and I'm fabulous. [laughs] Let me listen to this. CHRIS OLIVER: Too many of them. I'm currently rewriting a lot of the Pay gem. And it's just one of those things where you make a bunch of decisions. And then, if you make an open-source project, people use it in all these different ways that you didn't intend yourself, and so you want to support that. But then you need to rearchitect things in it. It is a lot of learning as you go, which is always a lot of fun. So those I think are really good topics to talk about when you're building something like that. I'm always amazed by how does the Rails core team make these decisions on what should be in the framework and what shouldn't? And what do they want to maintain, and how do they keep it flexible but yet have some sort of rule with how they allow things to be implemented and whatever? It is a very hard job to have. So I get my little taste of that with some open source but not on their level. BRITTANY: I always thought that you had a good contrast to Jason Charnes because Jason works at Podia. And while you do get to work on a lot of really cool technologies, I feel like the stakes are much higher. So you can't just rip out StimulusReflex and put in something else just because it sounds cool that week. And I love how you talk through the pluses and minuses to making a big change within the Podia codebase. JASON CHARNES: Yeah. I haven't really thought about that contrast before, but it's helpful for me even just to talk it out with two other people once a week, and luckily, pretty cool about me just coming on and talking about hey, these are the steps we took to get here. Yeah, it's a cool dynamic. BRITTANY: Steph, have you ever had a client from thoughtbot say, "Hey, were you talking about me?" whenever you're talking about your current client? STEPH: That is one of my fears at times that it will happen [chuckles] although we stay very positive on the show. That's something that's very important to us. There's enough negativity in the world. So we really want to focus on our positive experiences through the week. But there have been times where I'm speaking about some of the challenges or things that we are running into that yes, the engineering team is listening to the podcast, and they're like, "Oh, I heard you talk about this feature that we're working on or this particular challenge." And that's really cool because they get that behind-the-scenes peek to see how Chris and I are chatting about that. But yet they know enough, and they know which project that I'm on that they recognize exactly the technology and the feature that I'm trying to describe. So that has certainly happened, and it can be a lot of fun when it does. BRITTANY: Andrew, how have things changed for you now that you're not working at CodeFund, which was very much like an open-source thing? People could see what you were actively working on. And now you're working for a company where it's closed source. And so, you might not be able to reveal as much as what you're working on at any given point. ANDREW: It's different, but I don't think it's been an issue per se. I'm not like, oh crap, I let that slip, and I didn't mean to. That's not really an issue. I really cherish the time I had at CodeFund. When I think back on my experiences, that was my favorite time just because I was able to do that thing that a lot of people really want to do. I was working as an open-source developer. We were spiking StimulusReflex; that's when we were building up StimulusReflex and trying to build up the community. I joined Ruby. We started the Ruby Blend, and things were going good before a dramatic turn. But in terms of the closed and open source, it hasn't been that big of a shift just because instead of talking about what I'm doing at work, like, I still talk about it, but I speak about it in more general terms. But I also then kind of freed up to talk a lot more about the dumb crap I do on the nights and weekends. BRITTANY: So the majority of our podcasts either have the word Ruby or Rails in it, but I think we've all agreed that a lot of the topics that we're talking about are not specific to that community. But in a lot of ways, I feel that having podcasts in our community is how we're going to keep our community thriving. So I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts around...is there a way to market our podcasts so that other developers will listen to it? I get really excited when I get listener feedback saying, "Hey, I used to do Rails maybe ten years ago, but I've been listening to your podcast, and I really enjoy such and such episode." How can we make our podcasts accessible to the general software community as opposed to just Ruby? CHRIS TOOMEY: One thing that stands out to me about Ruby and Rails is because it's full-stack, because of its foundations, it tends to be holistically about web development. And so, whereas I look at React projects or other JavaScript or different things that are going on, I see a more narrow focus in those frameworks. And with Ruby and Rails, what I love about it is that it's really about building software. It's about building products that are valuable, that deliver value to end-users. And so that being the core of it, that's the story that constantly brings me back to Ruby and Rails. And it's the story that I want to keep telling as much as possible. And it's the thing that keeps me engaged with this community. And so, I think podcasts are a great way to continue to literally tell those sorts of stories and really celebrate that aspect of Ruby and Rails and why it remains such a productive way to build software. CHRIS OLIVER: I think related to that, one of the things that we should talk about more is the draw of Rails was look at what you can do with one person or two people. And I feel like we went down the JavaScript route, and now you need two teams of people, and you end up building bigger stuff. And Hotwire has kind of been like, hey, here's a reminder of what you can do with a very small team. And I think that resonates a lot with a lot of people building startups and trying to build side projects and everything. And that's one that is Rails-related. But there's a ton of people building Hotwire stuff in Laravel too. And they're all very similar. So I think at a certain point, yeah, we're talking about maybe Rails specifically, but you can apply all those things to different frameworks and just different tools. STEPH: I'd like to add on and extend that because I wholeheartedly agree with what both Chris Toomey and Chris Oliver just said. And in addition, a lot of the conversations that we have on The Bike Shed are focused on Ruby and Rails, but then we will extract that particular concept to the point that it really doesn't matter which language that you're using or which framework that you're using. We're talking more about the high level. What's your process? What are you thinking as you're going through and implementing this? And based on more of our recent conversations, you'd think we're more of a Postgres podcast, how much we hype up Postgres, and the things that we can do at the database layer. So I think there are a lot of ways that we can start with a foundation of this is how we're doing it with Ruby and Rails, but then talk about it at a higher level where then it's really applicable for everybody. JASON CHARNES: If talking about one technology defined your podcast, we might as well be a Laravel podcast because we talk about that framework more than we do Rails sometimes. [chuckles] BRITTANY: So that begs the question: is there room for more Ruby and Rails podcasts outside of who's currently on this call? JASON SWETT: I think so. And I mentioned that Peter Cooper was on our podcast a little bit ago. That's something he and I actually talked about in that episode. And I shared the anecdote about how in the new America's founding, Ben Franklin's brother or something like that wanted to start a newspaper. And somebody told him what a dumb idea that was because America already had a newspaper. And people might say, oh, there are already however many Rails podcasts. There are a small handful. But I think there could be ten more Rails podcasts or even more than that potentially because I think people have an appetite for help, and camaraderie, and stuff like that. And I don't think we've nearly bottomed out in terms of satisfying people's appetite for that stuff. JASON CHARNES: Yeah, I agree with that because a lot of times, when I listen to podcasts, the more you get to know someone, that connection becomes what it's about for me. So, yeah, there's plenty of room. I mean, brand it as Ruby and tell me about your life as a developer I'll listen. CHRIS TOOMEY: I'll also throw it out there that the way you framed the question is like, is there room for it? But one of the wonderful things about podcasting as a medium is it is distributed. It's not centralized. You can start up a podcast any day. And I will say, as someone who inherited a popular podcast or a sufficiently popular podcast and just got to run with that, it has been such a wonderful way to get my voice out there and provide opportunities that I want that for everyone. I want everyone to have this ability to speak about the way they think about software and then find like-minded people and be able to build even many communities within the larger community of Ruby on Rails. So beyond the question of, Is there room?” which I definitely think there is, I so wholeheartedly support anyone pursuing this for their own reason. ANDREW: Yeah, I think to bring it all the way back, one thing that Chris, Jason, and I care a lot about is Ruby as a community. The community aspects of Ruby are very important to us. And we're actively trying to build that up and bring in new people and bringing people onto their first podcast. We say it all the time, like, hey, if you want to come on the show, let us know. We've had a few people even, you know, recognition in jobs from that. So to us, that is the payoff of doing the show. Maybe our show is the first time someone learns about Rails. And that to me is the possibility in the future. It's like, how can we market our shows that markets Ruby as well so that this meme of Ruby being dead finally goes away because it's not. I think it's growing. And I think the more and more we push as people who are public figures in this space that we want to bring more people on, that this is a space for everyone, I think that's just kind of the ethos that all of us have, and I think that's great. BRITTANY: So I'm curious, on a lighter note, has anyone had the funny experience of realizing that you're not just podcasting into the ether and that what you're saying and what you're doing matters? For me, I have definitely been at conferences where people will run up and hug me just because they heard my voice, and they are like, "I didn't know what you looked like, but I have your voice memorized," and it just blew my mind. And I was like, "Thank you so much for being such a loyal listener." And it just proves that people are out there listening. ANDREW: I tend to talk very openly about mental health. And I very often fail in public and talk about it. And I've had a lot of people message me and email me over the past three or four years and be like, "Hey, thank you for talking about this thing that's not actually about Ruby. It's not actually about coding, but it's just about being a developer." And those are the emails that make me feel the best. Like, someone who's out there like, "Yeah, I also feel like this. Thank you for speaking about it." JASON SWETT: I had a surreal experience. I went to India in 2019 through RubyConf India. And this guy wanted to take a selfie with me because apparently, he considered me famous. So that was cool and pretty surprising because I definitely didn't consider myself famous. STEPH: My favorite has been when we receive listener questions because it lets us know that people are listening and engaged in the conversation, and I essentially feel like they're part of the conversation. They will write in to us and share anecdotes, or they'll share answers to some of the questions that Chris and I will pose on the show. But every now and then, we will also get an email from someone that says, "Hey, just thanks for doing the show. I listen, and it's great," and that's all they share. And that, to me, is just the most wonderful thing that I could receive. BRITTANY: Some of my favorite episodes from all of your shows is when we get an inside peek into what people are doing, like Andrew moving. Jason Charnes, you putting together a conference was actually some of my favorite episodes of yours, which was really early on, which proves that I'm a Remote Ruby OG. But I loved hearing the inside track as to what organizing a conference is because I think we need to get more content out there about how difficult but how rewarding it is. JASON CHARNES: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about...that was around those times we hadn't done... It feels like it's been ages since we did Southeast Ruby, but Chris and I actually podcasted from the last Southeast Ruby we did. We just met in a room and recorded. But when I started that conference, I didn't have a lot to go on. So I'm more than glad to share because the reason I started is there were no Ruby conferences around me, plus I'm an open book. So for better or for worse, maybe that's good podcast material. JASON SWETT: Side note, it's one of the most enjoyable conferences I've ever been to. JASON CHARNES: Thank you. BRITTANY: I completely agree. I miss the regional conferences. JASON CHARNES: We lucked out because we were already planning on skipping 2020 because we were tired, and then COVID hit. I just sat on the couch one night and looked at Shannon (she helps me put on the conference), and I was like, "Wow, that would have been terrible. That would have come out of our own bank account, all that loss if we would have already booked somewhere." So phew, when it chills out, we'll try it again. BRITTANY: So let's talk about legacies. I know that some of us have taken over from popular podcasts. Some of us have grown podcasts from the very beginning. So I'm curious, do you ever put any thought into the legacy of your podcast, whether or not you're going to stay with it to the end? Would you eventually pass it off? Do you think about whether or not it's your responsibility to the community to make sure that it keeps going? JASON SWETT: I, for one, plan to have my consciousness uploaded to a supercomputer upon my death so that the Rails with Jason Podcast can continue on indefinitely. JASON CHARNES: Did you recently watch Upload the TV show? JASON SWETT: No, I've never heard of it. JASON CHARNES: Oh, man. That's a whole nother conversation. BRITTANY: Consider that homework, Jason. JASON CHARNES: It's an interesting question because we started ours out of nothing. I wonder, is one of us going to get tired and just quit? I'd like to think that if one of us did, it would keep going because there are plenty of cool people who could hang out and talk Ruby on it. But it's interesting, something that's casually crossed my mind, but I think we're good. I think we're still doing it unless Chris and Andrew have a surprise for me today. ANDREW: Surprise! [chuckles] I've thought about it a few times, specifically because I'm the youngest member of Remote Ruby. What if Jason and Chris just left, and they were like, "Oh, it's all yours now." Could I keep running it by myself? I think honestly, the answer is I would probably still do it just to have an excuse to talk to someone. I enjoy it. It's almost like a hobby at this point. I don't feel any obligation to create it. To me, it's really like an excuse to hang out with two friends, and other good stuff comes from that. But at the end of the day, I cherish that time just us hanging out a lot. CHRIS OLIVER: Yeah. I think that's why we sometimes joke about it being a weekly therapy session where we are just hanging out and chatting about stuff. It's nice to be able to talk about programming things at a high level with people you don't work with that have totally different perspectives and stuff. So yeah, if Jason and Andrew dropped off, I would still try to have conversations with random people I know and keep it going just because it's enjoyable. I would hope that we would be able to keep it going and have other people on there. BRITTANY: I'd love to hear from someone from The Bike Shed. STEPH: I have thought about it. I've thought about it partially from the perspective that Chris Toomey brought up earlier in regards to being on a podcast is an incredible platform. You get to share your opinions, and people listen to you. And they know you, and it's really wonderful marketing. So I have thought about it from the perspective of I want other people to have access to this really wonderful podcast that we put on each week. So part of me is very aware of that and thinking about how more people can have similar exposures. So a sort of a similar event occurred when Chris was moving on from thoughtbot and pursuing other interests. And at that moment, I just thought, oh my goodness, Chris brought me on as co-host, and now I'm here alone, and I don't know what I'm going to do. And I just panicked. I truly don't think I even considered other options. I was like, well, okay, it's over now. This was fun. And then it turned out where Chris was going to stay with the show. So things have just gone on swimmingly, and it's been wonderful. But similar to what someone was saying earlier around when you start listening to a podcast, and you really develop that relationship and you go back to that podcast because you really enjoy hearing from those people and their adventures, it's very similar for me where The Bike Shed is very much the conversations and chats with Chris. So I think if we were to move on, it would be whenever Chris and I decided to move on and give the reins over to somebody else. I don't know if Chris fully agrees, so this will be interesting to find out. [chuckles] CHRIS TOOMEY: I agree with that. Honestly, I'm honored to have continued on in the podcast after having moved on from thoughtbot because, in a very real way, the show is thoughtbot's channel to talk about things. I was at thoughtbot for seven years. I think I live and breathe that truth. And to me, that's what maybe has made sense for me to continue on. But I really do feel a responsibility to keep the show in good shape so that someday someone else gets to inherit this thing because I was so happy to get handed it. It was such a wonderful thing. And it has been such a joy to do for these past three years. But at some point, I do presume that we will move on. And at that point, I do hope that other people pick up the mantle. And thankfully, thoughtbot as an organization, there is a group of individuals that I'm sure there will be someone wonderful that gets to step in, but I'm in no hurry to do that. And, Steph, I hope you're not either. So we'll continue the conversations for now, but I definitely do want to keep this thing alive if for no other reason than I got handed it. I don't feel like I could let it drop on the floor. That doesn't feel right. BRITTANY: Well, I think on that warm, fuzzy feeling, we should wrap up. So let's go through everybody and just tell the listeners where they can listen to your podcasts and follow you. I am Brittany Martin, @BrittJMartin on Twitter. And you can listen to the Ruby on Rails Podcast at therubyonrailspodcast.com. JASON CHARNES: So I'm Jason. We are Remote Ruby. I am @jmcharnes on Twitter. And I'll let the others tell you where you can find them. ANDREW: You can find me everywhere @andrewmcodes. And if you email me, there's a really good chance you're never going to see a response because my email is a disaster. Please don't email me, but you can contact me anywhere else. CHRIS OLIVER: I'm Chris Oliver, and you can find me on Twitter @excid3 or at Go Rails, and of course, gorails.com. And you can find the Remote Ruby podcast at remoteruby.com. CHRIS TOOMEY: I am @christoomey on Twitter. The Bike Shed is @bikeshed on Twitter. We are at bikeshed.fm for a URL. I'm pretty sure www works, but I'm going to go check that real quick after because I want to make sure that's true. And yeah, that's me. And I'll send it over to Steph for her part. STEPH: I am on Twitter @SViccari, and I post programming stuff, usually pictures of cute goats, cute dogs, that kind of content if you're into that. JASON SWETT: For me, if you want to find my podcast, it's Rails with Jason. And if you search for Rails with Jason anywhere, you should be able to find it. And then my website, if you're interested in my blog and all that stuff, is codewithjason.com. BRITTANY: Fantastic. Thank you, everyone, for being on this mega episode today. It was a lot of fun. We are going to be having a podcast panel at RubyConf; we're excited to announce and some of us will be present. So stay tuned for details around that. And if you enjoyed this mega episode and want to see more mega episodes, please let us know on Twitter. All: Bye. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Bye. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Are short-term rental businesses coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic and being resurrected? Do owners love the return on investment (ROI) and income, but tired of the turnover, logistics, and moving parts? If you're doing it all on your own, hand it over. Today's guest is Andrew LeBaron with BuyMoreTime, a flat-rate property management solution for short-term rentals. Andrew began his real estate journey by being the marketing director and a guest on Joe Fairless's Best Ever Real Estate Investing Advice Show. Then, Andrew started buying, selling, wholesaling, fixing, and flipping properties and got licensed to go even further. You'll Learn... [02:13] How Andrew went from greeting big-name podcast guests to becoming one. [05:15] Hoteling 101: Managing a hotel is not time and freedom. It's a lot of work. [05:54] Team Effort: If you don't have a team, you will not thrive (or sleep). [09:23] COVID: Great for short-term rentals, not for property managers or owners. [12:40] Questions: How much could my property rent for? What needs to be inside it? [16:23] Mistakes: Give gifts and leave notes for guests to make a big difference.  Tweetables “Shorter rental management is big bucks.” Hoteling 101: Owners of short-term rental properties just wanted more time and freedom, and managing a hotel is not time and freedom. It's a lot of work. “There's so many facets to this. There's legal, there's inventory, there is coordination with cleaning and maintenance. Then, there's guest responses. It's literally 24/7.” “When you have a short-term rental, you're not selling a place to stay. You're selling an experience.” Resources The Best Short-Term Rental Management Andrew LeBaron on Facebook Best Ever Real Estate Investing Advice Show with Joe Fairless BiggerPockets Grant Cardone Gary Keller Barbara Corcoran Airbnb VRBO The Giftology Stay Here on Netflix JF1896: How To Grow Your Property Management Company with Jason Hull DoorGrow on Instagram DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I'm hanging out here with Andrew LeBaron. Andrew, welcome to the show. Andrew: Thank you. Jason: Andrew, you're with an organization company called BuyMoreTime. Andrew: That's it. We are a short-term rental property management solution. Jason: Cool. Andrew, we don't have a lot of vendors and people on the show typically related to the short-term rental industry. This will be interesting because I have been getting a lot more calls related to that lately. Maybe a lot of people are starting to resurrect these short-term rental businesses coming out of the pandemic, where there's a black swan event that squashed the industry temporarily. Let's first get into a little bit of background about you and how you got into this industry. Andrew: Yeah, sure. It's funny. We're on a podcast right now. I actually started a long time ago as a marketing director for a podcast. I don't know if you've ever heard of the Best Ever Real Estate Investing Show with Joe Fairless. He buys multi-family apartments. That's his main gig. Jason: I think I was on that show. I've been on a lot of podcasts back in the day. Andrew: I wouldn't be surprised. Heck, maybe, I reached out to you some years ago, who knows? It's the world's longest daily real estate podcast. I mean his work ethic is insane. Years ago, I got into real estate. I jumped into (of course) Bigger Pockets. I jumped into Joe Fairless's podcast. On one of the podcast episodes he said, I am looking for a marketing director. Someone that can help connect me with more guests. If that's you, send me an email. I'm like, I want to try that. I sent him an email. I'm like, I don't care if he pays me. If he pays me, great. If he doesn't, so what? I was his marketing director and I got to meet some of the coolest people—Grant Cardone, Gary Keller, some really big names. I didn't get to speak to Barbara Corcoran, but I got to send an email. There were some pretty big names on that podcast and I was actually able to be a guest. I was starting my real estate journey and from there I started buying and selling properties, wholesaling, buying, fixing, and flipping. I started buying small apartments, 6 units, 10 units and so on and so forth. Then I got licensed because I wanted to take it a little bit further. I thought, okay, if I'm not going to buy these, I'm going to either manage them, and so on and so forth. Then I realized about 3½–4 years ago from an accident, actually, that shorter rental management is big bucks. In fact, we bought a house that we couldn't sell. We tried everything we could to move, the property just wouldn't move for some reason; it was just a weird property. I told my partner, whatever. Let's furnish it. We went to goodwill. We got these truckloads of just random furniture and we loaded up into this house—we're such rookies—and we put it up or lease or we set it up for Airbnb. I kid you not, this lady wanted to rent it for a week for $250 a night. I was like, it's got to be a joke. There's no way. She's like, no, I'd love to stay here, me and my family. From there, I thought, the short-term rental space is where it's at. We started buying more, furnishing more. Then all of our friends said, can you help us manage ours? We're like, okay, we can help you. It's hoteling 101, but that's how we became BuyMoreTime. We noticed that owners of short-term rental properties just wanted more time and freedom, and managing a hotel is not time and freedom. It's a lot of work. Jason: Right. I don't think there's any industry that takes more time and more customer interaction than the hospitality industry. I think that's rated at the top. Property management is second to that, they say, so it's right there. Andrew: It's pretty insane. There's so many facets to this. There's legal, there's inventory, there is coordination with cleaning and maintenance. Then there's guest responses. It's literally 24/7. There is no sleep. If you don't have a team, you will not thrive. Jason: Right. Tell us a little bit about BuyMoreTime. What is it exactly that you do? Andrew: BuyMoreTime is a flat rate management service for short-term rentals. We are a service-first company. If you have a property on a short-term rental platform, say, Airbnb, VRBO, if you have a motel, small apartment building, you want to do a couple of apartments and you want to maximize your ROI by leveraging the short-term rental platforms and its traffic, then you can hire us. We will manage that for you. We'll set it up. Most of the time we're looking for clients that already had it built, but we can set it up. We will set your teams—you're cleaning team, your maintenance team. We'll handle messaging 24/7. We will take over your hotel. That's what we do. Jason: Okay, the hotel. Awesome. Cool and I checked my inbox. I was on the Joe Fairless podcast back in May of 2019. It's been some years, but I was there at one point. Andrew: That's so cool. Jason: But I didn't even know it was that big of a deal. I guess that was pretty cool for me in hindsight. Andrew: That is really cool. Jason: Awesome. What would you say to people that might be tuning into this on the short-term rental side that are doing this themselves currently? Why would they want to get in partnership with you? Andrew: Well, just like our name prescribes, if you are tired of wasting or you're trading your time for money and you love the ROI, you love the income, 2–3 times than average rents across the nation is what you can expect from a short-term rental. If you're getting $700 rent in the south, you could get double that. You can get triple that. Depending on where you are. There are many variables. But if you're tired of handling that yourself, you can literally hand it over to our company. Our sales team will answer all your questions. We'll link you up into our software. We will hit the green button and you sit back and simply watch the interaction between your guest and our team and obviously your bank account. There is no touching it. I mean we literally set it up in the beginning so you don't have to manage it all. We have your team. We have your inventory. We would restock your toilet paper, paper towels. Sheets. There's just so much to say. It'll hurt your head if you think about it. Inventory management and supply chain, that's what we do. We handle all that. That's what your listeners can glean from our company. That's what we can do for them. Jason: Now, you had mentioned a little bit of info about how appealing it might be to get into the short-term rental game, 2–3 times the amount of income coming in. But what about those that have been burned by Covid? They said this was too painful. We weren't prepared for this. Money just stopped. Vacation rental market was just decimated. They're just afraid to get back into the game. Andrew: You know what's funny? Covid actually was great. I think that's the only thing I'll say about Covid as far as short-term rentals go. For a property manager or for an apartment owner, for property owners, Covid was not great because you have the moratorium. There's a lot of struggles there. For us, for the short-term rental gamers, it was wonderful. People couldn't leave. No one could go anywhere. We saw a decline in March of 2020. We saw a slight decline in occupancy. Our typical occupancy is hovering around 92%. Occupancy inside the short-term rental game is very different. You got 30 nights out of a month, depending how many nights you booked, that's your occupancy rate. It dipped I think just 70% flat, 70% or 73% flat. After March, we started exploding. It was quite the opposite. People couldn't go to Europe. People couldn't go to other countries, so they had staycations. In the beginning, this whole journey there's kind of like this Airbnb belief that when you have a guest that wants to go from one side of the city to stay in your place, that's a big red flag because it's probably going to be a party, probably going to be a kid. But at this moment, with Covid, it was like, look, I'm a tired mother. My husband and I would just want to get away. We got a babysitter. Covid shut us down, can we come stay? We haven't changed our [...], yeah sure. We don't discriminate, but at the same time, we would stop asking all the prying questions. Are you in college or not? College parties are the worst. But we would allow them to. We actually exploded really well during Covid. Jason: Interesting. I would have thought it would have been the opposite. Now, is BuyMoreTime location-specific? Is this all over the US? Is it beyond? Where do you guys do this at? Andrew: We're in five states right now and two countries. We're in Canada, in here, and five states. We can do this anywhere. We could pick up anywhere. Obviously, you need to qualify. We have a qualifying call. It's called a discovery call where we discuss what your property is like, its condition, your needs, and so on and so forth. See if we're a good fit. Not everybody's a good fit, obviously. Not every property is a good fit. Not every area is a good fit. We just want to make sure that it's going to be a win-win situation for everybody. Jason: Are you wanting listeners that are listening to the DoorGrowShow, to this episode, regardless of where they're at to just reach out, or are you looking for specific areas? Andrew: Regardless of where they're at to reach out, absolutely. Jason: Cool. What are some of the biggest questions that potential clients want to know when talking with you? Andrew: Number one question, how much could my property go for? How much could my property rent for if I was to work with BuyMoreTime? My answer is, when you come to BuyMoreTime, you should already be established. We're not a coaching company. We're not a let's boost your traffic. You should already be established, description, photos, 5-star reviews and you say, look, I got this in the bag. I just need to hand over the reins. That's all I want to do. For the costs, less than paying a VA every month, you're going to hire our team and we're going to run all of your operations. Jason: So this is for those that are just tired of the turnover, tired of the logistics, tired of making sure all the moving parts are happening. You'll handle all of that. Andrew: Correct. Jason: It sounds like you do it quite affordably. Andrew: Yup. $349 a month is our price and it doesn't fluctuate. The good news is we built this to service our property, to scratch our own itch. We're investors first. We have short-term rentals. We buy property. I'm sitting in one right now, up north. I've only been here for a couple months, brought my family into it. This will eventually be a short-term rental up in the pines. We wanted something where I didn't have to pay 20%, 25%, 15% of my profits. There's a lot of other companies out there like us where they have this really cool software and service—services, in my opinion, are subpar—but you pay out 20% of your profits on your highest month. It's like you're being penalized for using their service. To me, I would want some sort of program that I know what I'm paying for every single month. Every single month is the same rate, no matter what. In that way, I can easily predict my income for my highest months. Everybody's got the highest months. Austin's got a high season. Arizona, all over the place, they have a high season and low season. Florida, they have a high season. For us in AZ for example, it's going to be March and April. From other places, it is that same month or those months. These companies rob you 20% of your total proceeds. I thought that's not cool. Let's give the profits back to the owners and we'll just take a small fee for managing their property. Jason: All right, so the first the main question everyone wants to know is how much could they get and probably what is the cost. What else are they curious about, usually? Andrew: They usually want what I need in my property? What should be inside it? Especially, if you haven't done this before. Let's say you manage apartments, or you own a building, or whatever it may be, and you're talking to some partners or your client about setting up an Airbnb. That's probably one of the biggest questions is what goes inside of it? The one thing I need to tell people is when you have a short-term rental, you're not selling a place to stay. You're selling experience. I don't know, Jason, if you've ever stayed in a property on Airbnb before, but I just… Jason: I have. Andrew: You have? Just scrolling, you're looking for beautiful photos. You're looking for awesome amenities. You're looking for 5-star reviews. You're not looking 4-star, you're not looking for 3-stars, you want the best. You're looking for a very awesome experience. I think the biggest mistake that a lot of short-term rental managers go through is they're just trying to just fill it with stuff. That's not the case. If you have the ability to stock the fridge, stock the fridge. If you can leave a note for your guest, leave a note. If you could set up a system to leave nice things for your guests or send an extra message saying, we're so glad you're here, do it because that's what it's about. Jason: Yeah. There's a really great book called The Giftology, and in this book he talks about how just little gifts and little things actually make a big difference. And that makes a big difference giving something because that just makes it novel. It makes it stand out. It makes it different. I really enjoyed the show on Netflix called Stay Here. I don't know if you've seen that. Andrew: Yes. Jason: They're making these properties ready to be really amazing experiences, and that was a big part of the show is all about this experience. People are coming to Austin and have a certain type of experience. There needs to be a barbecue and some of these things. People are going to different areas in order to have the experience of that area and kind of tying that in. They made it really hyper relevant. Any other questions people tend to ask? Andrew: I think one other question they ask is how do I stand out? How do I be different? Everybody has got a condo on Airbnb. If you go to airbnb.com right now, looking at Austin, look in your zip code, you'll see thousands. How do I stand out? I think the biggest tip I have for those people that want to know how to stand out is, what is something that is going to make your place so memorable that people will be talking about it and they'll come back? There's a really easy way to do this by asking yourself what do people not offer that I can offer? What do they not have that I have? Some people have this huge TV, surround sound, just crazy entertainment, amazing sofa. That's good, but what is extra? I've seen some people add movie tickets or tickets to some amusement parks. I don't know how cost-effective that is, obviously, but depending on your budget versus how you can stand out, that's going to predict how you stand out. Jason: Interesting, cool. Well, how can people get a hold of you that might be interested? Andrew: This question always comes up in podcasts. I sometimes tell my cell phone number, but there's a link that actually you have, Jason, where you can get a hold of us. I'll just let you add that to the show notes. I'm going to just defer that back to you. Other than that, you could reach out to me on Facebook. Jason: Awesome. Yeah. He gave me an affiliate link, everybody, which is cool. I appreciate that. We'll put that link in the show notes. We'll link that on the podcast episode, online on our blog as well. It's been great getting familiar with you here a little bit. I really enjoyed the different perspective on Covid about the short-term rental industry. I know that I had lots of clients in the long-term game that were able to convert several into long-term during that time period in areas that they had challenges, but that was interesting. I didn't consider the staycation part, but I think a lot of people got really anxious, cooped up inside, and were looking for just a change of scenery, even if it was nearby. That makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you coming on the show, and until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes and tune into the DoorGrowShow on YouTube as well. And if you are interested in growing your property management business, we're having some really great success with our new DoorGrow and scale mastermind. We have one of our clients John [...] join in November, in the middle of the winter months, during the pandemic, in Boston. He added 125 doors in the last six months just using one of my strategies, and it cost him $0. He didn't spend any money on advertising. Anyway, reach out if you're interested. You can check us out at doorgrow.com. Bye everyone. Andrew: See you.

 Transcript 00:00:00 Billy And they said you need to come with me right now and I said, I don't even know you. The head of the Pilot Assistance Program for the APA, which is American Airlines pilot and the other guy, was the chief pilot for my airline and this guy, Dave. He had a phony handed phones me he said this is your crew scheduling. Tell them that you're sick and I said I'm not sick. I said I'm. What are we doing? I'm not saying you said listen, tell him that you're sick that's all you have to say is I'm sick they know that you're going to be talking to him. Tell him that you're sick. Or if you don't, you're gonna end up on the news because the news vans are already looking for it. So you know. I mean, I'm a rational person and I was, you know, coming off a major Bender. But I knew that there was something wrong with that situation, so I just said, yeah, I'm sick and they said, OK, we're moving from your schedule and I think happiness is not even the right word. I think what I'm really looking for is peace is peace and serenity. That's why I'm I want to look in a mirror. And then I'll be happy with what I'm looking at. And sometimes it's. I've got to be selfless to do that. You know, I've got to help others to really be happy with myself. And that's totally cool. We closed, you know, anytime you know my can be just as negative and pessimistic as as the next guy. But when I'm doing something to help somebody else, so when I'm listening to someone else, I'm not thinking of my own problem. I'm not focused on me, when I'm helping someone else, you know, and I think that is such a massive lesson that I've learned. 00:01:35 intro You're listening to flying straight and aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety. People in the flying industry and other walks of life will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement.  Join Andrew O'Meally, Airline pilot, an non practicing alcoholic as he takes you on a journey, discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. 00:02:11 Andrew Hi folks and welcome to this 5th episode of Flying Straight piloting a sober life. My name is Andrew O'Meally. Your host and I hope you're doing OK. Well on today's episode I speak with someone from over the other side of the world in Manhattan, Captain Billy Peterson. He was born and bred in that New York area and as I said, he's living in Manhattan today. This interview is little longer than the others, but I tell you, after recording them playing it back, there is not one word I could cut out. It's such a powerful account of his life. I find it hard to summarize it now, but what I will say is that his story with plenty of differences to mine, has more similarities and I have a feeling that there are heaps of people who will be listening to this today. Will feel the same as I have. This guy has so many liars, his honesty and acceptance of himself as something that I have the deepest admiration for. Enough said by me. Here is the story. 00:03:21 Andrew I really appreciate this time you've taken to talk with me today and considering that's something we have in common, and that's the ability to miscalculate the time zones. I'm really glad this is happening now! Last time I spoke, or we spoke. You just got back from Puerto Rico and you've recovered from that. 00:03:44 Billy I did, I did, and since then I I went in another trip, another work trip down there to San Juan and just came back a few hours ago. Just flew up this afternoon. 00:03:54 Andrew Alright, did you? Was that an overnight or? 00:03:57 Billy Yeah, it was. Actually, it was just it. Was a simple three day trip one leg down to Puerto Rico Day one with a Dominican Republic turn the next day, and then another Dominican Republic turn this morning. And then dead -Head back up to New York. 00:04:15 Andrew Alright, anytime for any surfing or was just a very quick layover? 00:04:20 Billy Yeah. One very quick layover in another longer wet layover, but there was no waves and the water was kind of dirty, kind of dirty -seaweed Sometimes, and one of those times I hung out by the pool and read a book and got some food. And you know, typical overnight. 00:04:37 Andrew Yeah, it sounds terrible. 00:04:38 Billy Horrible, horrible. 00:04:40 Andrew I'm glad you made it from that ordeal, so that's pretty good. So yeah, we spoke fairly recently because I had heard your just the abbreviated story of your life at HIMS conference. And I've Absolutely fascinating. So we sat down not so long ago and you told me the unedited version, and I thought it's such an amazing story. Maybe we should record it this time. So here we are. 00:05:14 Billy Right, OK, I don't know about amazing story, but yeah, sure let's do it. 00:05:19 Andrew It is what it is, yeah, so I guess if we start from the early days, you're born and raised in the New York City area, is that right? 00:05:32 Billy Yeah, yeah, that's correct. So I'm like third generation. Irish American and my whole family. I'm on both sides came over from Northwestern Island over to Brooklyn, Brooklyn, NY. Back in, you know, with age. You know my family just kind of - we stayed here, you know we I have no family anywhere else in the country but in York and I grew up on the islands about. About 30 minutes from 30 miles or I guess in kilometres over that beyond 50 kilometers maybe. 00:06:04 Andrew Yeah yeah 50 yeah yeah. 00:06:06 Billy From Manhattan, from New York, from the city, and I grew up out there in a very working class, working class neighborhood. 00:06:16 Andrew Yeah, OK, alright and so grew up there and then. I guess you were sort of keen on flying but I remember you telling me that that wasn't the first career that you had - it was a teacher. Yeah, so what I did is when, you know there's a whole bunch of different things I always wanted to do, and I was always kind of told that I couldn't do them. I wasn't smart enough, wasn't quick enough, wasn't good enough. That kind of thing. You know, we hear that a lot in these rooms. I didn't really get the -all of the support I guess I needed to, you know to be free really, so I ended up what I was always told was just get a job with good benefits and good health insurance. You know something we need in the states, and you know, So I went to college to be a teacher, a technology education teacher which is. It's otherwise known as industrial arts like so I was teaching at the high school level. I had an architectural drawing class. I had a transportation class, you know where we basically taught the kids how to rotate tires and change oil on cars. And you know how an airplane flies that basic kind of thing, but. But  Yeah, so that that was my first career. That was my first career. Was teaching an all throughout college and. All my 20s rose I bartended also I was a -and you know it wasn't really a side job cause now, in places like New York, it's  such a high paying job who, you know, to be a bartender that it took up took up a lot of time. 00:07:51 Andrew Yeah, right 00:07:52 Billy And as a budding alcoholic, I enjoyed that much more than the teaching, and I excelled at it and I had friends and I had to go to different ba...

Alex : Dude, so like, it's gotta at least be like - I was thinking about it the other day - it's gotta be like 15, 17 years at this point. Andrew: Probably Yeah. Alex: Holy shit. John: That's Alex Aldea speaking to Andrew Joslyn. They're part of the Paragon Collective, the network responsible for audio dramas like Darkest Night and The No Sleep Podcast. Alex: Andrew and I do compose a lot of podcast music together but Andrew is also a music luminary. He's done string arrangements for Ke$ha to compositions from Macklemore to literally everything. Andrew: Yeah, even film stuff with like Corbin Bernsen and Denise Richards There you go! Alex: Andrew plays every single string instrument. So even like in Darkest Night, a lot of the strings that you hear are real strings. John: The audio quality in this episode is a Zoom rip. Sorry about that. But I got some great conversation with these guys. My name is John Bartmann. I'm the creator of How I Make Music. I'll let these two audio drama stars. take it from here. Andrew: The piece of music we're listening to in the background is called The Opening of the Oyster. It's a dystopian soundtrack from the psychedelic audio drama The Oyster. Today, we'll break it down and get into why and how it was made. You're listening to How I make music, where audio drama composers get to tell their own stories. Every Wednesday, we break apart a song or soundtrack or composition and take a trip - a wild trip - into how it was made. My name is Andrew Joslyn. Alex: And I'm Alex Aldea. Andrew: I'm a composer from Seattle, Washington. And this is How I Make Music. 1:58 INTRO  Alex: The Oyster takes place 30 years in the future, where humans basically don't have as many resources and they have to figure out whether they want to plug in and just feel eternal bliss in the machine or face the harsh reality. The basic premise of the show is a philosophical argument on utilitarianism. This show came about really quickly. I kept thinking about this idea of "do we plug in?" Or do we not know what happens if you invent something like this and how it kind of goes in society for months and months and months? Definitely psychedelic. I knew we had something with the show. You never really know if you have anything, let's be quite honest! The point where you can work on a project and you're like, "oh, this isn't terrible. I don't feel so delusional about it." I don't know if you've heard about the philosopher John Stuart Mill. If something feels good, then it's good. There's the great argument against that has always been like well, what if you were an oyster and you felt nothing except for bliss, but you never could have really any experiences? Is that not the ultimate life? That monologue "choirs of crickets fill the sky with a cascading cacophony"... we actually had her record that monologue on top of Love On A Real Train by Tangerine Dream.  4:34 SUBTLETY Andrew: These episodes are so musical because it's an audio drama. The music has to ... not foreshadow and give away too much, but it has to help guide the audience. Emotionally. On the journey that, you know, we're taking them on. I usually like to think of it as like breathing. You know, if the VO allows room to take a breath, let the music take a breath with the VO as well. So sometimes what that means to me is just add a longer reverb. So you can't hit them over the head and be like super aggressive, but you also got to give them enough guidance. So I would, I would choose something really subtle. You know, just drones, some other stuff. Make sure the chord progression isn't anything too aggressive. Make sure that none of the harmonies go a little too far up in the spectrum. You know. Never Never, never, never never step on the vocal no matter what you do. I come from the pop realm so I always think of stuff as underscore and top line - top line being your your vocals, your main melodies, your VO voiceovers. You don't want to draw too much attention away from the vocal and to yourself as the composer.  6:32 TOOLS Andrew: Omnisphere is this just huge synth library. I don't know there's like 500, 700 frickin samples in there. And I also love Zebra 2. Zebra, Serum, especially in this kind of like world building. Heavyocity is one of the plugins. One of the things that we love to use is I think it's Evolve Mutations. Alex: Dude, we can't give away all of our plugins we're out. I'm not going to get them all the way I was literally going to be someone who's gonna go through here and like download all the plugins we use there's gonna be like three darkest night soundtracks and like six months. 8:09  PROCESS Alex: My process for the most part is I'll just listen to a part over again and over again and just jam something in the mid range like a piano or whatever. Then I'll build it, I'll build it. And then usually a day later I'll have something and it's usually worth ... not leaving my house for like an entire day. 8:38 LAYERS Alex: We have like a little choir on top. It's kind of mixed with whistling bells. We have Gregorian chants towards the end. We have a substance bass that goes with the Gregorian chants. We have a whole horn section we have a trumpet layer and a horns layer, brass layer, woodwinds layer, string ensemble layer that kicks in right when that part builds. Then also with this with this track we played a lot with with Logan's vocals. I mean I can honestly consider that part of the score. I love sound particles and it basically is a way of just like making this whole like ... multiplying the vocals by like 1000. Especially if I'm trying to make something that sounds really trippy the characters coming to these big realizations about her life and how she's choosing to look at what it means to be alive when everything goes to shit. 10:28 OUTRO  Alex: That's about it for this week's episode. We'll listen to the full track in just a moment. But before we do that, thank you for listening to How I Make Music. We've been listening to music featured on the audio drama called The Oyster. To hear the full story or check out Andrew and his my other compositions, Follow the links in the show notes. Andrew and I did Casefile, Darkest Night, Deadly Manners. Andrew: I did a bunch of co-writing for Leslie Odom's record, Ke$ha, all the Macklemore records that have ever come out, I'm a co-writer on. And then the list goes on and on and on. Alex: How I Make Music is created by John Bartmann. For audio experiences that keep people listening, contact John Bartmann via the show notes. And now, here's The Opening of The Oyster, a dark unsettled, dystopian underscore in its entirety. My name is Alex Aldea (and I'm Andrew Joslyn) and thanks for listening to How I Make Music. SHOW NOTES Listen to The Oyster https://pod.link/1538224217 The Paragon Collective https://www.theparagoncollective.com/ Andrew Joslyn https://andrewjoslynmusic.com MUSIC CREDITS Tangerine Dream - Love On A Real Train Ke$ha - Take It Off For a full list of music and sound effects credits from this episode, visit https://howimakemusic.com ABOUT THIS SHOW How I Make Music is where audio drama composers get to tell their own stories. In a dramatically edited sound experience, we challenge composers to break apart a song, soundtrack or composition and get into why and how it was made. Subscribe to How I Make Music https://pod.link/howimakemusic Support How I Make Music https://patreon.com/howimakemusic Visit How I Make Music https://howimakemusic.com How I Make Music is created by John Bartmann https://johnbartmann.com

Sasha and Andrew talk about finding balance. How working on your shadow is just as important as working on the rest of yourself. They explore tarot and other tools along with personal stories of encounters wit the shadow.    Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here.   Supporters get early access and at th e$5 level access ro a bonus recording for each episode - this one a 17 minute talk on how to work with your shadow.  If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Sasha here.  Andrew is here.    Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.    Transcription.  Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermits Lamp podcast. I am here today with Sasha Graham. I met Sasha at Readers Studio a number of years ago where they were talking about shadow work. And recently, this summer, they came out with a deck called the Dark Wood Tarot, which digs right into that shadow stuff. And for people who've spent time around me, really owning both sides of that stuff is important I think to every spiritual journey. So I wanted to kind of have Sasha on here to talk shadow stuff and talk dealing with those things, especially at a time when COVID and racial issues and justice issues or the shadow issues of our cultures are really being brought to the foreground as well. It feels like an important conversation and an important thing to keep paying attention to. But maybe everybody doesn't know who you are, Sasha. So why don't you give us a quick introduction? Sasha: Yeah. Well, first off, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So my name's Sasha Graham. I'm a tarot author and a deck creator and a teacher. I've written, I think, eight tarot books for Llewellyn and Lo Scarabeo. And I contribute to the Llewellyn's Magical Almanacs, which is Datebooks. And I've created two tarot decks, both of them kind of steeped in spooky darkness because I love that vibe: The Tarot of the Haunted House for Lo Scarabeo and The Dark Wood Tarot, which has just come out a couple months ago, with Llewellyn. Andrew: So tell me this, because you are a very positive-seeming, very upbeat, very energetic and outgoing kind of person. What's with all the darkness? What's with the appeal of that for you? What do you get from that? Sasha: I am a person who... The darkest parts of anything in my life that I've ever experienced, the most challenging things in my life that I've ever experienced has always paid itself back on the light side, if that makes sense. So I grew up in a very kind of... I think my childhood, to be honest with you, felt very terrifying. I lived in wild, rural places. I was on mountains and planes. We moved around. The world always felt very supernatural and very scary. And it was always kind of going in and embracing the things and figuring out all of the dark stuff helped me find the light that much better, if that makes any sense. And especially I think as a teenager, when there were certain things that I couldn't process that were happening in my life, it was easier for me to go to horror and Stephen King. I happened to come of age when vampires and Anne Rice became a thing and the goth movement first came out. So, to me, grinding yourself against the darkness, grinding yourself against the stuff that terrifies you makes you stronger and ultimately it makes you more whole. And then as I transitioned into my work as a taroist and as a writer and as like, I don't know, a spiritual creature or whatever you want to call it, I realized how profound and how the further you go into the... We're all here to evolve, right? As a taroist, as an artist, as a writer, you're here to move forward and to see further than you've seen the day before. The only way you can bring the light of consciousness to whatever it is that you do is by exploring the things you don't understand or you don't know. Now, oftentimes those things are scary. If you're doing between world work and you're encountering an energy that you're not familiar with, of course that's terrifying because you don't recognize it. But interestingly, that happening spiritually or in your imagination is the same thing that happens to us when we walk down the street and see something we don't recognize or a person that we don't recognize. Because something is not comfortable to us, we call that thing the other and we're afraid of it. And that's why the shadow work that you perform for yourself is applicable on every single level of our lives. And so it's not just about how you're relating inside to yourself, but also how you're relating to the external world, and how what I call the trick of the material world, which in the tarot deck would be pentacles, how you really get fooled by the way that something looks rather than paying attention to the energy of what it actually is underneath. And when you're looking at things energetically... Oh my God, I'm really running on here. But when you're looking at things energetically, it's a lot simpler, I think, than things look like on the surface. All right. I'm going to just stop talking now. Andrew: No. There are so many things to touch on in there. So the first one I want to ask you about though... I made a list here so we can make sure stuff doesn't get missed. The first thing that I want to say is... So I spent a lot of time in the wilderness. I grew up sort of North of Toronto in a town that I think it had about 8,000 people living there when I lived there. But I lived on the edge of town and there was nothing but farms and forests between us and the next town, maybe a 15 minute drive over or a very long, long walk or bike ride. And so I spent a lot of time in the woods and pretty deep in the woods and getting lost in the woods with friends and stuff like that or by myself. And I spent a lot of time cycling the rural roads. I would just hop on my bike and ride for hours and be like, huh? And again, pre GPS, pre whatever, like actually lost. Being like, huh, I think if I turn right here, I'm going to get back to my city, my town. But if not, then I'm going to hit this other town and then I'm going to have a really long bike ride home after that. I'm already really tired. Because for me, as I continue to grow and continue to live my life spiritually, my connection to the land, to wilderness, to sort of spirits from places, to plants and animals and all of those kinds of things that has its root in that time continues to flourish. Because I think that in nature, there's no avoiding the shadow. Nature doesn't avoid it at all. It's all kind of unified. Nature is what it is and that's it. And we sometimes try and glorify it and be like, "Oh, all these things are so perfect." And it's like, well, nature is astounding. Nature is magical and powerful. Nature is intense and scary. It's all there. So I'm curious what role some of your experiences of being in the wilderness or in nature and so on impacted on your journey in this. Was there a moment where you were out there and you were scared of stuff? Was there a moment where you had a spiritual encounter in the woods or wherever? Sasha: Yeah. And this is, again, one of those things where you asked me in the beginning, why do you love the darkness? One of the things that used to terrify me the most was I lived on the side of a mountain in Vermont. We had like a mile long driveway. I was in fourth grade. And I would have to walk from the school bus up the driveway and into the empty house and hang out for like two hours by myself before anyone got home. And so it was like I would leave the den of the school bus. And the second I stepped off that school bus, man, it got quiet. And the gift of being a young child and of being scared, because there's a difference between playing... Well, whether you're playing or whether you're kind of nervous and therefore kind of on alert, the gift of being very young and being in those situations is that you're not always necessarily sure what you're looking at. When you encounter things, I think that you encounter them maybe in their truer form than what people have. Because once you're told this is a doc, that is a red robin, you kind of place it in a box in a way. But when you're young and in nature... And I believe that being nervous and being scared, especially those walks up that driveway, because I was in kind of a heightened state of alert, I was certain I was going to get murdered or there was a troll under the bridge. He was going to devour me up. I really paid attention, like super-uber attention. And with that, yeah, I saw things and I experienced things on a much more profound level probably than I could even... I probably couldn't even express it in words. But again, it's something that I'm so grateful for because as I've grown older and moved deeper into the work that I do, I understand that now and I'm able to see things in that way or I know when I'm encountering something and what I would call between mortals experience, where I'm almost in two places at the same time and looking through the veneer of the material world into the energy that's underneath. So again, I think it's that full circle thing, when you have a childhood rooted in nature and go outside and play, you're immediately interfacing with all of this energy that in and of itself could be your teacher. You never have to pick up a tarot book or a witchcraft book or a Shelly book if you were just paying attention to and outside in the woods. So that's an example of why I'm grateful for something that was spooky that was my greatest teacher as well. Andrew: Yeah. I think there's something about fear that is really helpful sometimes, not always. You know what I mean? Sasha: Yeah. Andrew: I remember the first time I summoned Goetic demon to demand it to do something for me. It was one of the first evocations that I did. A friend of mine and I had spent a long time... We got this 10 by 10 foot canvas and painted our magic circle on it by hand. We did all sorts of stuff around setting that up. And I remember the feeling as I started that ceremony and the way in which it heightened all of my other senses and kind of opened me up. It wasn't that I hadn't been meditating and scrying and reading cards. I had been doing a lot of stuff. But something about the tension around that and sort of that taking it really seriously. And I think that whether it's a deliberate experience or whether it's a sort of situational experience, right? I remember being... We were at a friend's wedding somewhere north of the city and we were walking back, me and my co-parent and the two kids, one of whom was like an infant at the time. And we were walking back from where the post wedding dancing was happening around a fire with a bunch of drums and stuff like that, back to the cabin where we were sleeping. The road was pitch black and we didn't have a flashlight. And the only light that there was, was this little tiny gap above us where you could see a few stars through the trees. And I was just like, "Oh, this is fine. I know this." I mean, I don't know that place. But I know the forest. I know being here in the dark. I know whatever. And I was just like, "It's fine. Just put your hand on me and I'll just walk us back." And I just walked us back, following that faintest of trails. I mean, the road itself was big enough to drive a car out. So it wasn't like I was walking through the woods on a tiny goat track on a mountain with the kids. But it was dark. And that sense, for me, in that moment, of connection to all of that stuff around me made it really easy to be there. But I think that in the absence of that, that is a terrifying experience, right? Sasha: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I think that, again, it's kind of the trick in the way that we address what's happening, like fear. So many of the same things that happen to us physically when we're freaked out and scared are also the same thing that happens to us when we're intensely sexually aroused. Your face flushes, you get goosebumps on your skin, you're really paying attention to everything that's going on. Well, what happens in those moments when you're on such kind of high alert, you're broken open. In the sense of the erotic, you're opening yourself up to someone and if everything's in your favor, you're about to have an incredibly transcendent experience with someone. And I think the great thing about really good horror movies, for example, or a great horror novel is that also opens you up and shows you something new. It shows you what's possible. And it doesn't necessarily always feel good, which I always talk about the three of swords being the heart opening card. To look at an incredible natural landscape can be kind of as painful. Beauty can be as painful as grief, and all of it is breaking you open. It's taking you out of where you were yesterday and it's moving you further into a deeper experience of being a human being and therefore understanding the world in a more profound way, which is why I think we're all here and why we do this work. Andrew: I love the notion of the sublime from like 19th century landscape and then kind of further into modernism and other things. This idea that we can have these experiences of something that is so vast and overwhelming that it allows us to understand our place in the universe and our relationship to source the creator or, as they would have said, to God. Because it is that a complete existential understanding of our place in relationship to everything else. And that sense of both our smallness and our bigness in relationship to things. A friend of mine had this land that backed onto 50,000 hectares. I don't know what that is in America, but it's huge. It's unbelievably huge. And the land was logged like a hundred years ago and then has been untouched ever since. And other than a few hunter shacks and stuff, there's nothing there. And I used to go pike in there and find a high spot, because there's just sort of like rolling Canadian shield, rocky surfaces that on the top of them there's just nothing there because they're just fair walk. And I would find a nice one and I would camp there for a couple days by myself. And at night I would do ceremonies to the sky goddess. And you're there in this vast wilderness and I'm like three, four hours walk through the woods from anybody else probably. And you're on this high point and you're away from all the cities. So it's just this vast, expansive starriness. And that sense of being lost in relationship to it, being consumed by the bigness and then connected to it and then returned back to myself is such a profound and healing experience. Sasha: And also, when I'm out in the woods by myself, what is always surprising to me is the sense that I'm definitely not out there alone. And I'm not talking about like tree energy or field energy. I am talking about something much more beguiling. And I would not even dare to kind of try and even define it because again, I think it's something that... What happens to you when you are truly alone without other people in the wild I guess is like the hermit and taro. You have to be out there to experience it yourself because I think it's one of the closest, comfortable ways that you can start to understand how you interface with the world around you. And I think it's an exquisite and always surprising and amazing. I just think it's amazing. Now I want to go hiking, or maybe it's the weekend that has caught up. Andrew: Yeah. I just got back from a week camping, not particularly remotely, but a week camping with my kids. And they were like, "Can we go again?" And I'm like, "Yeah, we'll go again. We can do on October." And maybe we'll go somewhere just slightly further that's maybe going to be a little Wilder, especially because October we're not going to be swimming or not likely to be swimming. It's going to be cold up here and stuff. Sasha: For sure. Andrew: One of the things I think is very interesting about you as well is that you have this background in acting. And you have this piece that's attached to what people talk about as sort of, in my mind, glamor magic, from like what you do and how you go about it, stuff like that. And so I'm curious for you, how do you think about it, or if you ever think about this sort of idea of how you are in the world as sort of a deliberate expression of yourself and us sort of being attached to that wholeness or that magic or those kinds of ideas? Sasha: I love that you just said glamour magic. That makes me so happy. So your question is, I'm sorry, how do I... Andrew: How do you think about this yourself in relationship to how you are in the world, like your shadow and all this stuff? You're out there as a teacher and a taroist and all these things. But how do you think about how you present yourself, about your persona, about your way of being in the world, especially maybe in relationship to your public self, or if you do at all? I don't know. Sasha: Look, from as far back as I can remember, I think there's two things that kind of occupied my mind and in terms of what drove me to do the things that I did, and that was, one, in a sense having some sort of agency or power. And two, with that, also being authentic to who I was or am. And that's something that I'm constantly trying to figure out. And I think anybody who's extremely empathetic, I pick up a lot of whoever I'm around. So I'm constantly trying to navigate, okay, is that me or is that someone else? I try to be and I continue every day, I was just in bed this morning with my husband talking about this thing, being the most authentic version of who it is that you are with that whole idea of the things that are placed inside of you that you are drawn to. So in terms of what I put out there, it's who I am. I love that you say glamour magic. I think supernatural stuff is sexy. I think witchcraft is so sexy. I think it's powerful. That's what I loved when I was an actor and I made like a million B movies. I'm looking at them right now. They're all right there. But when I look back at the roles that I did, I wasn't the girl being like slashed in a wet t-shirt. I was the vampire. I was the gargoyle. I was the mafia hit woman. It was all about claiming my power because I think for so long I felt powerless. So what I do now, as a woman... It's funny. The teaching just kind of came along with writing books. I never set out to become a teacher at all. But then since I started publishing, people were like, "Oh, will you teach a class. Do you guys do that?" So I was like, okay, all right. I mean, I'd rather be a student. Any day of the week I would rather be a student because I'm still figuring this stuff out and it's always felt odd to kind of be like, well, here I am the authority. Let me tell you what I know about the invisible world. How do I know that for someone else? I only know my experience of it. And even with my books, I'm always like you know more about yourself than I do. Throw my book out the window and write down what the symbol of a crown or a rainbow means to you. So as far as what I put out there, I mean, I'm just trying to be me. I like glamour and pleasure and beauty and travel and excitement. And I always felt, since I was very young, that life was cinematic. And it's why I love living in New York city and I love being in the mountains because it's like being in a movie thing and I do love the movies. So I don't know. That's just me, I guess. I'm trying to be me. Andrew: Because it sounds like there was a time where you didn't feel empowered and now there's this time where you feel more empowered or you're sort of aware of it and making a lot of choices that bring you into that place. How did that shift happen? Sasha: Well, the second I moved to New York city, I got a great therapist. I found myself a good, good therapist. I always had the sense... How did that shift happen? Taro has always been my jam. First of all, when I first started as a reader, I was like, well, if I'm not following my own advice, then I'm kind of like a total fraud. So I always already felt like it was like, okay, it was going to keep me on point. And the shift into... I don't know when it happened. I mean, I think it's been a slow and steady ascension up the cliff into whoever is inside of me that's trying to come out or trying to show itself. I don't know. Andrew: Interesting. Yeah. It's funny how that stuff sort of sometimes is easier to see in retrospect, that the change is happening, than it is to sort of notice in the moment. And I think that... Maybe you see this with people, too. Sometimes come for readings and they want that change today. And I'm like, yeah, that would be so nice, wouldn't it? If I could just, and then you would feel empowered or this or that or whatever. But it's often those accumulation of little things, or not even little things, right? Like, well, I did therapy for a while. I did this. I did that. I read my cards every day. I kept asking questions. I kept writing. Sasha: And it's so true. And I'm so curious. When people have those big moments... My sister, for instance, she was a heroin addict. And I'm always like that day of clarity where you woke up and were like, "I'm done," how many tiny things had to... And if you look bad at any moment in your life when you make a big decision like, "Oh, I'm finally really done." And you might call that a major care moment. I'm really finished with this. It's always the tiniest things that led to the biggest kind of I think outward, inward changes. And in a sense makes it so easy... I didn't know what I was going to do for a career. I was asking the tarot every day, what should I do? What should I do? If there's something you want in your life, ask what that is every day. And I guarantee you within three to six months, probably sooner, you'll get the answer. But it's just about kind of focusing yourself and realizing it's something small. Just asking a question and opening yourself up to the wisdom. It will come. And funny enough, my answer was like, oh, you should be a tarot reader. And it was right. So yeah, it is so often something that would be seemingly insignificant or small that is so incredibly powerful. Andrew: Well, I think that reminds me of maybe three, four years ago I was feeling very log jammed by stuff. I was running the store. I was doing readings. It was all going well, but it was a lot to deal with. I had kids. I got a lot going on. And I was reading cards and trying to figure out essentially how to be happier because I was not super happy in that moment. And I put out the cards and journaling again. And I wrote when I'm free, I want to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right? And then I kind of stopped myself. And I looked back over like my past series of readings and stuff and almost all of them had similar language. And I was like, wait a second, when I'm free? Okay. I have my own store. I am my own boss. I can do whatever, maybe not immediately, but over time I can do anything I want with any of these things. I'm in a relationship, but it's an open relationship and I'm free to date other people and do whatever I want in that regards and so on and so on. And I'm like, when am I going to be more free than this? What would that even look like? It would look like, oh, I won the lottery and I've got $10 billion and I don't have to think about anything anymore. That would be more free. But I was like, oh, I already have this thing, but I'm putting my unhappiness onto this idea of lack of freedom as opposed to looking at my happiness and say, okay, what can I do to change this? And obviously, there are lots of people who are in positions where they don't have those freedoms. I was in a very privileged position around this. But I think that that idea of when we're reading or journaling or whatever, keep looking back and look for those patterns and look for those words that you're like, what's the central word there? What's the sexual thing there? And then try and unpack that and see what's there, because often there's something that could be done or there's a shift around our attention. And once I started dropping that story, I was like, "Oh, well, look at this. Now I'm going to do this and now I want to do that." One of the things was I was like talking to people on the phone isn't making me happy. I'm going to put in a booking system. And that's it. I'm going to stop talking to people by bookings. And I was like, oh, that's easy. Done. And I changed a few little things and it created a lot of movement. And then I started moving from there further, further into it. Sasha: And that's the funny thing. We nuance the stuff that we want and it makes it seem like we're swimming in this ocean when it's really quite simple. When I wrote 365 Tarot Spreads, which is a tarot spread for every day of the year, before I began, I thought, oh, I wonder if there's a limit of how many questions a human being could ask. And so I sat down and I researched it and I thought up as many questions as I could. And when you take out the personal nuances of your life, there's really under a hundred questions that a person could ask. And again, almost to the point of what we were talking about earlier, what's underneath is really quite simple. What we do is confuse it for all of this different stuff. I find that endlessly fascinating. And then you're like, "Oh my God, this is so much easier. I was making it all such a big deal." What you just described, and then realizing that you already have what you want. I love what I said about the magician card. It makes me so happy and it just gives me so much joy. He's got the four suits of tarot typically on his magician table. And I always say that you already have everything you need. It's in front of you. And that's the funny and interesting thing about making magic and casting spells when. Actually, I wrote an article, this technique called The Grief Eater Technique for one of the Llewellyn annuals. And it's about what happens when your witch's desires are not granted. You have to recognize that what you need is right there, perhaps you're not recognizing it or perhaps you don't see the gift or can't appreciate that what you are looking for us is staring at you in the face. And then that leads to the next magical tenet, which is know that you already have it. I have to say, a couple of years ago, I was dying to travel, but we just didn't have the money and the budget. And I have a teenage daughter. So the idea that the three of us could pick up and go halfway around the world was very ridiculous. And I thought, okay, tarot teaches me that the world repeats. That underneath all of this stuff, everything is the same. So I thought, okay, I can't go traveling the world right now. So I'm going to, every day, for five to 10 minutes, look for the entire world in my backyard. And whether that's on a city block in the city or that's in a puddle behind this house. And I started looking and traveling. And wouldn't you know it, Andrew, I swear to God, within a year for me doing that every day for 10 minutes, I was being literally invited to China, to the Middle East, all over the country. I started traveling like a fiend. And it was amazing, I think magic and tarot and figuring your stuff out can be so simple. We make it tough. Andrew: Yeah. I think it's interesting. Whenever people talk about magic, I'm always like, cool, what's the mechanism there? What accomplished that? And in the story you said, I'm kind of like, well, is that like doing devotion work to idea of travel for long enough that something, whatever it was, opened up and granted that to you? Is that aligning your attention to those things that started to make that more possible and sort of attaching yourself to those energies and actions and thoughts and stuff that make that happen? It happens on so many different levels. And I think that that kind of idea of ongoing continual practice around stuff is really fascinating and actually fits with a lot of what I do. I do a lot of sort of sigil and art-based magic. And on the regular, I'm making art sigils, art gifts, art petitions and giving them to the ancestors or giving them to whatever. And I just make them and make them and make them. There's a whole pile of them. I just sit there with them. And some of those are around bigger things or smaller things. A lot of them are just around like help me just understand what I really want and what I don't want. Help me to just be really clear about that. And that continuous, ongoing attention over years, it just turns into those moments where you're like, oh yeah, that's cool. Look, oh, I don't do that anymore. Oh, now I do know this. Oh, I have this clarity. Or also, hey, this thing opened up and this happened or that happened or, yeah, these opportunities, right? Sasha: And it's interesting. Because the impulse to seek that out or to create whatever it is that you're creating is already kind of implanted inside you, again, authentically. Talking about just being yourself, like a true, authentic version of expression of whatever is kind of embedded inside of you. When you either, A, I think recognize it in the material world or in nature, or when you write or paint, or also then create it, I do believe it's magnifying that energy which wanted to be seen. I love this idea that everything on the other side, all of what's in the invisible world or not yet manifested, I love the idea that it wants you as much as you want it. And not only just the things that you want, but kind of like everything. When you're walking through your garden and you can smell a cucumber or rosemary, I feel like it's begging you like, "Pay attention to me," Just like clients want to be seen in a tarot reading and they want you to understand them. I think everything in the invisible world wants to get your attention because it wants to be seen because it's exactly like us or that's us. It's all part and parcel. So the magical act is so inherently creative, there's just, I think, such power in the recognition and kind of the duality of creating it. And that's why it's so crazy and cool when you'll create a piece of art or write something and then like a year later you're standing inside of it. It's amazing. It's so cool. Andrew: So take away, magic school. Go through magic. Sasha: Practice magic every day. Do lots of magic. It's the perfect time of year anyway, if you're in the Northern hemisphere. Andrew: I think that's great. Well, maybe this is a good place to leave it with that and say, hey, go practice magic. Stay in it, stay curious, and look at that fear and work on it. Because I think that that stuff is gateways to all sorts of great possibilities. So for people who want to come and follow what you're up to, and of course people should do that, where are you hanging out online these days? What's your social stuff? Sasha: My social sitch. So I guess anybody who's interested in seeing what I'm up to can look on Instagram. I think I'm Sasha Taro Diva, Sasha Graham Taro Diva. Just Google Sasha Graham Taro and my stuff will come up. But I'm on sashagraham.com. I'm on Facebook and on Instagram primarily. Those are like my main social Hangouts. But more importantly, and probably something that would be even more interesting and helpful to you would be to like rather than looking for me online, look for my books and my tarot decks at independent bookstores. Support them. Get a tarot deck to play with. Grab one of my books. I promise you like 365 Spells or 365 Spreads is going to give you so much fun stuff that you can do and play with your cards and get into. Honestly, social is like a light version. Get one of my books, get one of my decks and play. I think that's the best way you can kind of get little piece of me. Andrew: I agree. I agree for sure. And speaking of that, we're going to wrap this up and we're going to go record a bonus episode for people who are supporters of the Patreon, where we're going to get into specifically how to play with regards to dig in and do a little shadow work. So if you're not already supporting the Patreon, go check it out and start. You're missing out on some fantastic stuff. All right. Thanks for being on today, Sasha. Sasha: Thanks so much.

As a property manager, have you considered investing in mobile home parks? Not interested? Not your thing? Some people won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Today’s guest is Andrew Keel of the Keel Team. Andrew’s here to convince you otherwise. He talks all about mobile home park investing as an attractive and appealing asset class. You’ll Learn... [02:00] Sticker Shock Stigma: Why investing in mobile home parks is a good idea. [02:48] Longing to be a Landlord: Leverage other people’s money to buy properties. [03:30] Yellow Letter: Knew nothing about mobile homes, but knew it was a great deal. [04:00] Shoutout to Lonnie Scruggs: Learned how to make money with mobile homes. [05:10] Temp to Forever Cashflow: Use capital to buy and manage mobile home parks. [07:07] Three reasons why to invest in mobile home parks: Highest returns out of any form of real estate. Demand for affordable housing is off the charts. Supply is limited. [12:40] Bottleneck in Business: Finding good quality deals big enough to move on. [14:54] Boots on the Ground: Third-party property management for mobile home parks. [18:58] Utility Infrastructure: Most important aspect and most expensive to replace. [20:12] Tax Shelter: Mobile home park business of depreciation and improvements. [20:57] Models: Community owners own homes vs. every home is park-owned rental.  Tweetables “Some people won't even touch it with a 10-foot pole. That artificially creates a moat to this investment class.” Andrew Keel “I knew I wanted to be into real estate. I knew I wanted to be a landlord, but I didn't have a lot of money.” Andrew Keel “The demand for affordable housing for this country is off the charts.” Andrew Keel “The stigma of living in a mobile home is not as strong in the midwest as it is in other parts of the country.” Andrew Keel “We are looking at a more scalable model to have the tenants own their homes. Then, we just have lot rent.” Andrew Keel Resources Keel Team Deals on Wheels: How to buy, sell, and finance used mobile homes for big profits and cash flow by Lonnie Scruggs Mobile Home University (MHU) Boot Camp HUD NARPM DoorGrow on Instagram DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today's show is going to be all about Mobile Home Park Investing. My expert guest is Andrew Keel of the Keel Team. Andrew, welcome. Andrew: Thank you. Jason: Andrew, before we get into this idea of Mobile Home Park Investing which, I'm guessing a lot of property managers right now are like not my thing, I'm not even going to listen to this one. I'm going to skip this episode. Before you do that, Andrew's going to convince you that it might be a good idea. Andrew: I'll give them my best shot. I think one of the reasons why I like the asset class so much is because of that stigma that a lot of people see. That initial sticker shock of the asset class. That's a huge part of why the industry is so attractive, some people won't even touch it with a 10 foot pole. That artificially creates a moat to this investment class. Jason: Right. Just a little protection built in, okay. Some of them were thinking that's kind of like having a trash heap around the property. Nobody wants to come in. Maybe it doesn't look very appealing. Before we get into that, Andrew, tell everyone about you. You've got a lot of things going on. Give us a little background of how you got into real estate investing, property management, how did all this start for you? Andrew: Yeah, sure. I started flipping houses around Central Florida and wholesaling residential contracts. I did that for about two years. I was trying to become a landlord but I started with nothing. My parents went bankrupt when I was in college, lost the house I grew up in. I knew I wanted to be into real estate. I knew I wanted to be a landlord, but I didn't have a lot of money. I initially thought, hey, I need to have a lot of money to be a landlord because I can't afford to buy these properties. That was before I learned how to use other people's money and leverage other tools. I started flipping houses and I got a deal through a yellow letter that I mailed out on two mobile homes in Ocala, Florida. That's just a couple of hours north of where I live in Orlando. These were nice, vinyl-sided, single roof homes that were manufactured in the mid-1990s. I could buy both of these for $2200 cash. I was like I don't know anything about mobile homes but this is a great deal. I just knew it. I had two titles, I left that day. I gave them the cash. I came home and got on YouTube. I typed in how to make money with mobile homes? I was like I don't know, there's got to be a way to make some cash off these things. I came across a guy named Lonnie Scruggs. He used to teach this class, and he has a book called Deals on Wheels. It talked about buying mobile homes, fixing them up, and selling them on contract to an end buyer. That's exactly what I did with those two mobile homes. I was able to fix them up, just clean them up basically. Some new paint and some new flooring. I sold them for $3000 down and $250 a month for five years. I did that on both of them and I only paid $2200 cash for both. I was like wow! This is a great model. It's not forever cash—that was my end goal—but this is great, temporary cash. I ended up doing that 19 more times and bought individual mobile homes through various parks throughout Central Florida. I sold them on contract. After doing that, I met some mobile home park owners. Again, I had this idea in my head that you need to be extremely wealthy to buy mobile home parks—the whole community. Through talking with them, they gave me that epiphany of using other people's money. I could be the sweat equity that would manage the properties. That was a huge Aha! moment for me. I immediately became glued to the asset class, read every book, went to every seminar, went to the MHU Bootcamp a few times, and just became a sponge for the asset class. That was a defining moment for me—getting into that industry. After I went to one of the bootcamps, I met a passive investor there that was just looking to invest and didn't want anything to do with the operations. He happened to be in the finance industry and worked really long hours but had a ton of cash that he wanted to deploy into this asset class. He partnered with me, and we bought the first mobile home park. It ended up being a really huge success. After that, we ended up buying four more communities since that one went so well. Since then, I have brought on more investors from friends and family to others outside of that. We do syndications now. We aggregate money from a pool of investors and then purchase these assets into a single purpose LLC. It's been a very awesome ride. It's been exciting. It's been blood, sweat, and tears into this at this point. Now, we're at 23 communities which is amazing and a blessing. We have a ton of people that work for us now and are awesome members of our team. That's a little about how I got into where I am today. Jason: You never just woke up when you were a kid and said I want to grow up to do mobile home park investing. Andrew: No, that's not how it went at all. I just kind of fell into this but I believe mobile home parks are a mode of investment for a few reasons. One of those that's really important is it has the highest returns out of any form of real estate. Right away, I was attracted to it. Number two, that makes it that much better, the demand for affordable housing for this country is off the charts. I think you can talk to any real estate expert and they would tell you that. Number three which is the main reason, number one, put it on the top of your list of why mobile home parks are a great asset class to invest in is because the supply is limited. Any other asset class whether it's self storage, multifamily, whatever, it's easier to develop those and get those approved. Where mobile home parks have this stigma, there's this not in my backyard initiative where people don't want a mobile home park built right next to their subdivision. It's very hard to get zoning approved for a new mobile home park development. Number two, from an economic standpoint, mobile home parks are loss leaders for municipalities. On average, they cost around $11,000 a year to put a child through public schooling with the cost of the school, the teachers, et cetera. In mobile homes, the owners of the mobile homes, they only pay maybe $50-$100 a year in their personal property taxes on their mobile home that they pay at the DMV just like you would pay taxes on your vehicle, or both, or so forth. The taxes are very low, but say a family of four that has two kids in elementary school, that would be a huge loss to the local municipality every year for having that family in their municipality. That's a big reason, the supply is shrinking. On average, there's 10 mobile home parks across the country that are torn down every year. It's continuing, it's getting more than that. More and more, they're torn down and put into better land uses for multifamily and whatnot. It's very rare, if any at all, are being developed from the ground up. It's very interesting from a supply standpoint. Jason: Are you involved in getting them developed? Andrew: I'm not. There's lower hanging fruit in communities that are already established, to be honest. It's less expensive to go in and fix the existing infrastructure. The majority of mobile home parks, I think 80% of them, are owned by my mom and pop owners. It's not an institutionalized asset class like multifamily and self storage. With that, you're able to come in and increase value very quickly through increasing that operating income, whether that's through modest rent increases, billing back utilities, increasing the occupancy. A lot of these communities have been owned by a mom and pop for 30-40 years. They have a lot of equity. A lot of these are paid off pretty clear. With that, we've been able to acquire five communities with stellar financing because they're able to be more flexible since they don't have some of the restrictions that a bank would have on a mortgage. It's a very exciting asset class. It's new to a lot of people but it's definitely a mode of investment. It's not something that you want to go to the country club and brag to your friends about. It is also very unique in that aspect because that stigma does keep some investors out of it and keeps cap rates significantly higher. Jason: Okay, okay. The first thing you mentioned is it has the highest returns. Qualify that a little bit, compare it maybe just a little bit, let's back this up. Some people listening, maybe their ears perked up when they heard that. Andrew: Yeah. If you're familiar with commercial real estate, properties are valued off of their income, there's the income model. Cap rates for mobile home communities are typically between 8% or 12%. If you compare that to multifamily, you're not able to get as big of a spread between the interest rate you're paying on your loan and the cap rate that you're purchasing the property for. The cap rate is the net operating income divided by the purchase price, for those of you who aren't familiar with that. Basically, we aim to get at least a 3.0 spread between our interest rate that our loan we have in the community, and the cap rate that we're paying. If we're able to create that Delta, we can offer our investors 20% cash on cash return annually. Jason: All right, okay. I’m taking notes. If you can offer investors that, it's not too difficult to get investors you're funding? Andrew: Yeah. We've been very fortunate to have a lot of people reaching out to invest with us. At this point, I would say the bottleneck in our business is finding good quality deals that are big enough to move the needle. There's a lot of communities that are between 50 and 100 lots that are a good place to play in. The communities that are bigger than that offer even more economies of scale in terms of expenses versus income. Those are the ones that are getting eaten up by institutional buyers at this point. Some of the REITs, some of the large private equity firms, are now playing in this space because they've seen high returns. They know supply is limited and demand is off the charts. They're going after those larger properties. Those are harder for us to compete with because those cap rates are getting compressed. Jason: This is just in your local market that you're willing to work and target? Is that correct? Andrew: We have communities all the way from Georgia to North Dakota, all the way down to Tennessee, and all the way across Pennsylvania. We're right in the center for the most part—the center of the United States. We did that for a couple of reasons, it was mainly strategy. Hurricanes primarily don't go across the midwest. However, there was a polar vortex last year, that was absolutely crazy. Hurricanes, it's protected against those. The stigma of living in a mobile home is not as strong in the midwest as it is in other parts of the country. For the most part, we aim to purchase communities in the middle of the United States. Jason: Got it. How difficult is it for somebody that's currently focused on single family residential, or maybe they're doing commercial, or maybe they're doing multifamily, to add this in as another business—basically another arm of their business and to work on this? Andrew: That's a great question. First off, I think we should say that third party property management for mobile homes communities, that's like across the nation, it's basically unheard of. There's like two or three companies that do it and they're not doing it at a high level. It's very tough because it is management intensive. Even though a lot of these communities don't own the mobile homes themselves, they just own the dirt underneath them, your maintenance costs less. There's just other reasons why it's a little bit difficult to manage these communities on a large scale because of the turnover and things like that that do happen. Jason: You're managing just the parks, you're not managing individual rental properties. Andrew: Correct. We get a lot of rent off the ground. Now, as a necessary evil of the business, when a home goes up for sale or say we come to own one of these homes, we have to then sell it to the tenant for them to become a tenant-owned resident and rent out the land to them. There's probably about 20% of our total units that are homes that we've sold to the tenant on contract. They're still responsible for maintenance but it's sold to them like a rent credit program, is what we call it, where they're making payments monthly to then pay off the home. Then, eventually, they will just pay lot rent. Jason: We didn't say this at the beginning, we probably should qualify you a little bit more by saying how many units are you over right now? How many are under management? Andrew: We are at 1497 units right now. That's across 23 parks. Jason: All right. How critical it is to have boots on the ground in all of these 23 locations? Andrew: It's paramount, in my opinion. We have an onsite manager at every single location. That's typically a resident that had the nicest home, we converted them into an onsite manager. All they are is just basically an eyes and ears person that communicates with our corporate office. It keeps us abreast of what's going on in the community. That has been really important for us to just be able to understand what's going on. Typically, we go after someone that has a fixed income like Social Security and they have one of the nicest homes in the communities. They're retired and they're home. They're like the community watchdog. They keep us up to date on what's going on. Then, our corporate office which we have 14 corporate offices, offsite management employees, handles everything from the financials, to the project management, to collections, to bookkeeping, et cetera. Jason: Got it. These are all parks that you have some sort of an ownership in, correct? Andrew: Correct. We only manage parks that we have ownership in right now. Jason: Got it, okay. For those listening, if somebody has a property management business, maybe they're a real estate investor and they're wanting to get into this, what advice would you give as the first initial step? They're looking around. They notice there's a mobile home park or two that probably could use a little love. Maybe the mom and pop owners would be willing to have a conversation. What's the first step that you think they need to be aware of? What knowledge do they need to gain first? Andrew: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say you need to go and get educated. You need to go to the MHU Bootcamp that's offered by Frank and Dave. That's like the industry leading educational platform that teaches everything from how to find deals, how to value them, and how to manage them. Within that class, you'll learn about the utility infrastructure. The utility infrastructure is by far the most important aspect of these communities because that's the most expensive to replace. For example, a community that's on the city water or the city sewer is more attractive because there's less risk on that half. Versus a community that's on a well and septic. A well and septic, there's a lot more testing involved. Now, you're servicing a community that is using that water supply. You have to make sure that there's certain chlorine, certain tests done on a consistent basis, to manage that water system. The same thing if you're on a septic or waste water treatment plant. Wastewater treatment plant can cause $500,000 to replace. You have to make sure that they're maintained on a high level. If they're not, you could be front of the bill for a very expensive project. Jason: A lot of what makes a mobile home park work is underground is what you're saying? Andrew: Correct. Jason: Okay. It's not just land, there's infrastructure that's really critical underneath. Andrew: Very, very, critical. Those are all items you're able to depreciate and we love that part of the business because mobile home parks are also a known tax shelter because of those improvements. Jason: Interesting. You said that Frank and Dave over MHU? Andrew: M as in Mary, H as in Harry. Mobile Home University. Jason: Got it, all right. I thought I would make sure. Cool. What else should they know about mobile home park investing that we haven't covered so far? Andrew: I'll just give a vague overview of it. There's a model where the community owners will own all of the homes and basically operate it as a flat apartment community where every home is a park-owned rental. That is not the model that we follow. We are looking at a more scalable model to have the tenants own their homes. Then, we just have lot rent. There's a couple of reasons. Obviously, repairs and maintenance would be a lot less. Your expenses will be a lot less. Also, your turnover on a tenant-owned home unit is approximately 4%-5% annually where the turnover on a park owned home unit is closer to 50% annually. From a management side of things, if you have a tenant-owned home community, you're going to spend less time dealing with turnover compared to a park owned home community. There's communities out there that have done both ways but we prefer the tenant-owned home model. In regards to mobile home park investing, it is affordable housing. If you're familiar with affordable housing in multifamily, HUD housing, or things like that, you can deal with a lot of the same residence but there's also different classes just like in any asset class where there's very high end mobile home communities that have swimming pools, community centers, three golf courses. Then, there's communities on the lower end that are just not taken care of very well. The homes are really close together, there's a lot of older homes. We try to aim right at the middle. We're looking at the C class parks that maybe we can bump up into a B. That's typically where we play. Jason: Got it. All right. For those that heard all of this and still thought there's no way I'm going to touch this. There's no way I'm going to go to MHU. I don't want to do any of this stuff, but those returns sound pretty sweet. Maybe I should talk to Andrew. Maybe there's a mom and pop that's listening, they're like you know what? I'm tired of this garbage. I'm tired of dealing with this place. I want out. It's time we retire from running this mobile home park. They're like maybe we can have a conversation with Andrew. Who are the people that you're wanting to get in touch with you? Whether it's investors, whether it's potential people that can create a deal with you? What are you interested in? Andrew: All of the above. If there's a wholesaler that comes across a mobile home park and they want to assign it, or it's a property manager, or maybe it's someone that wants to partner on their first deal because they want to learn the operations before just jumping in with two feet. All of them should reach out to me. My website is keelteam.com. I'd be happy to chat with you. I love talking about mobile home parks, you won't have to pull my leg too hard to go on the phone with me. Jason: I could tell. Andrew, I appreciate you coming on and sharing a little bit about mobile home park investing, helping open my audience’s eyes to that just a little bit. Maybe you'll get a few phone calls, maybe some people will get into this. Who knows? Maybe there'll be some sort of a hybrid where deals even workout. Are you looking at expanding outside the midwest at all? Andrew: Yeah, we've looked at some deals in many different areas. Not in California but outside of that state we've looked at several deals. You have to hit a certain number of units for it to make sense for it to go to a new market. You don't just want to go after a 40 lot mobile home park in Idaho when the rest of your communities are all in Ohio or Pennsylvania. We definitely looked at other places. I've JV'ed with people that brought me a deal that they didn't have any money but they just found this great deal. I found things like that and I'm totally open to sharing what I know on the operation side to others that bring a deal to the table. Jason: Awesome. Andrew, I appreciate you coming on the show. I wish you continued success. Andrew: Jason. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you having me on the DoorGrow Show. Jason: All right, cool. Make sure you reach out to Andrew if any of this sounds interesting, you are curious about this in working with him, or getting into it yourself. That was keelteam.com. If you're looking at figuring out how to grow your property management business, I had so many calls this week from new clients that have come onboard with us. There's this common challenge that property managers tend to deal with at various stages. I've noticed that you've got that first sandtrap at about 50, 60 doors in the single family residential space where you're dealing with how do I start to get ahead? How do I create some leverage in this business so I'm not just trapped as a solopreneur here forever? How do I start getting more doors than I'm losing so I'm not just breaking even every year in terms of growth? If you're dealing with any of those kinds of challenges, we're really going to help you break through that initial barrier. Then, there's that second sandtrap which is usually if you can break in a healthy way past 100 doors, if you haven't done that yet, talk to us. If you break past 100 doors in a healthy fashion, which means you're not just a real estate broker. That's really healthy and you've got this unhealthy property management business on the side, we can help you with that too. You do it in a healthy fashion. Then, you'll end up usually in the 200-400 door category and then you get stuck. This is where I see a lot of property managers stuck in NARPM. A lot of property managers are struggling. There are specific things that you need to break free from that sandtrap. Usually, the challenge is they're not getting the right thing members. They're not able to retain team members for a long time. They're trying to build and systemize the business, build a team. They just don't have a business that's scalable. Even if it were fed a lot of potential business, or a lot of deals, or a lot of leads, once they approach that 400 or maybe up to 500 units space, the business owners feel really stressed out. They built a team usually the way a solopreneur thinks. They built a business based on what the business needs, not on what the business owner needs to lower their pressure noises through the roof. Every person that they have on their team is coming to them for everything and asking questions. First, it feels really exciting when you're small. As you scale and as you build, it feels really suffocating. You become the biggest bottleneck in the business. If you're experiencing that, then reach out. We would love to have a conversation so that we can help you break past that second sandtrap as well. Anyway, I'm Jason Hull over at DoorGrow. Make sure you also check us out. We've been really pumping up Instagram and getting going. Follow us on Instagram, it's just @doorgrow. Make sure you get into our community at the DoorGrow Club Facebook group. You can go to the DoorGrow Club. Just go to doorgrowclub.com. Until next time, everybody. To our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.

Andrew, Fabeku, and Aidan (aka Stacking Skulls) get together to talk about living during this ongoing pandemic. They talk about astrology, racism, colonialism, magic, getting by, and so much more.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Aidan is here.  Fabeku is here.  Andrew is here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript is below.  Andrew: Hey, folks. Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp Podcast. At the time of this recording, it is, basically, the end of August, and been on a hiatus since the earth of spring from podcasting. Just too busy with dealing with all of the chaos of COVID and all of that chaos and everything else. But, I was thinking that the last episode that I did with Stacking Skulls was called WTF, and I think that the title for this one is probably WTF Still? Because, here we are so many months out from what's going on, and yet still life is chaotic and uncertain, and, really, especially for folks in America, way worse in some ways than it was back then. I don't think that we are still cruising around the idea that it might be, "Yeah, three weeks of lockdown, maybe a little bit longer," and now we're in the phase of, "Is there an end? When's the end? How does an end of this come together?" And, all that wear and tear that's kicked around. So, anyways, if you don't know Stacking Skulls, well, number one, you're in for a treat. There's a whole bunch of episodes of us clowning around together. But, I'm here with Fabeku and Aidan, and we're just going to check in as my fall relaunch of the podcast happens. So, yeah, who wants to go first, what's going on? How's the last five months been?  Aidan: The last five months have been ridiculous. Andrew: Yeah.  Aidan: It's been crazy busy, partially. We were pointed at doing... When I say we in this context, that's me and my wife... doing another class but with COVID and everybody being sent home, we realized that that didn't make any sense to try and put anything out that was a larger money thing. Because, it seemed like it was quite possible we weren't going to have much money and we didn't really feel great about trying to get 300 bucks or something out of people at that moment in time, because, really, we couldn't tell how things were going. So, we changed gears back to my second book, and so I've been rapidly finishing that and then learning InDesign to put it all together and get it printed. So, that's launched as an e-book now and in 10 days, 9 days, something like that, the print books start landing on people's doorsteps. Andrew: Nice. Aidan: It's overall just been weird. We're in one of the states that are... our governor has always taken this thing really seriously. So, we didn't get hit nearly as hard as most other places with the exception of some places on the reservation got hit really bad. So, we've been in lockdown way before a lot of places that didn't get hit as hard have been. We're now at the place that it's masks if you are outside of your home, period. So, I haven't really been on the bike for a while, because it is not fun to go riding around on that. We're super supportive of it. Because, it's just not being one of the people that is necessarily at as much risk as other people are, though... obviously, everybody can get it and can get messed up by it. You certainly don't want to be involved in spreading the shit.  Andrew: For sure.  Aidan: So, it's been crazy on that sense, but at the same time, we're homebodies anyway, and it's us at home with the animals. So, we've shifted a few things, but they've not been great. Not been huge for us. Then yeah, just doing book promo stuff and then launched the first episode of my podcast. But other than that, it's just been working on the book, working on getting the book out there, working on understanding InDesign. Andrew: It's not at all a small task to do a thing like that, right? Aidan: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm glad I know how to do it because it sets me up to do more. So, I'll be doing the e-book of Six Ways next and then I've already got part of the third book going. So, it's nice because it allows me to take the reins for that whole project now, but it is a lot of work. Keeping busy with that. Chickens, lots of chickens.  Andrew: Yum, yum. I mean, wonderful. Aidan: I don't eat them but I yum yum for their eggs. Andrew: How about you Fabeku? Fabeku: Yes, same. It's been crazy, like everybody. I think the last time I left the house was end of February, maybe first couple days of March. Have not been out of the house since then. Like Aidan, I don't go out of the house much anyway. But, this many months has been a strange thing. Yeah, I've been busy with a ton of stuff too. I just finished a book with some writing and art and some shit like that, that's going to be published by Revelore in October. [inaudible], so that's a cool thing. It was weird for a while. The first few months, I had a hell of a time doing art. I could do some stuff for clients or collectors or whatever but my own stuff is just, "What the fuck am I doing?" It was awhile that I didn't do any art which is weird for me. So, finally, back at that which is good. I feel like that was sanity preserving kind of things. Yeah, excited about the book, excited about the couple of books after that, that I'm finally back in motion after stalling out for a while and just busy with a ton of people stuff and trying to help people manage this fuckery that is 2020 at this point. Yeah, it's been a pretty high bandwidth task moment. Yeah, I don't know. It's a strange time in so many ways. In so many ways. Andrew: Yeah, I feel like this hit, probably around the time we were doing the last episode, things were slow-ish for me, and I was just trying to figure out what was going on and all that kind of stuff. Then, just things got super busy between the store and client work and suddenly having two kids that I'm solo parenting half the time. Not in school, all that kind of stuff. All of a sudden, it's just, wow, I'm just working as a parent or working as my regular job continuously and all the time. That was just an intense run all the way through until, really, maybe two weeks ago or three weeks ago, when I... here in Toronto, things went pretty good. We had a lot of stuff going on, but we're down to maybe 20 new cases a day, maybe less. We've had some single digits and restaurants are open and a lot of stuff. Gyms are open, with social distancing, of course, but it hasn't brought about a big spike in anything.  So, cautiously optimistic about it. Have been, and then, of course, the next big question is, school starts next month, and it's, what's going to go on with that and so on. Right? So, it's just trying to have a wrangle all that stuff with COVID. Then, I think, the other big thing that... this happened in this time since we last talked, right, was George Floyd's death. Right?  Aidan: Absolutely.  Andrew: The resurgence of what, really, should be a continuous thing of, how do we fix these racial divides and inequities and all this stuff. It's definitely a thing that's taken up a chunk of my attention as well in terms of trying to stay attentive to it, right. To not just drift back into day-to-day life, and whatever. Because, that's been the history of it, right? It erupts into the media and into our consciousness because there's some horrible thing that happens. Then, from a broader perspective, it dissipates, right? It doesn't build momentum. So, yeah, I would say I'm hopeful that it's going to change at this point. I have no idea, right. But, I think that there, definitely, felt like there's a different quality to what's been going on around that stuff, that I have some hope that it will make bigger changes. Yeah. Aidan: Yeah, that's been a huge thing too, obviously. And, it's interesting because it's even where you get stuff that's... I have folks in my family that still don't perceive what the issue is, you know? Which is weird to me on a personal level because I have, in my immediate, immediate-immediate family, people of color. So, you don't even want to take their word for what they're experiencing, even though they are technically your family, right? You're so set in your belief structure here that you can't see that or can't see the difference or the shifts between it. There's folks in my family that, again, have children that are children of color, that still don't see it. It's, really? How are you that unaware? How do you maintain that? That's what, I guess, I don't understand. I've never been able to maintain that. I didn't start with it, I think, and that's why. But, it's been good to see the attention. So, the reasons behind why it needs to be there are horrible, but yeah, I don't know.  Then, for us in the US, to me, there's like an almost psychotic nature to the United States right now. Where the whole discourse is so stratified and so divisive and so peculiar in where people can and will go. It's really, you don't see that in yourself or you don't see that in the people that you're supporting? How do you pull that off? I just don't get it. Fabeku: Its been interesting for me, my mother is in her 80s and grew up in a little teeny tiny, literally, a shack in the hills of Kentucky. After George Floyd was killed, every single time I've talked to her, that's almost all she's talked about, and how she realizes, at this stage of the game, that she's spent 80 something years oblivious to this shit, and not paying attention and not listening to people, and having the privilege to not pay attention to it because it didn't affect her. And, she's trying to have conversations with her sisters and her brothers, almost all of whom are completely oblivious to it and entirely entrenched in, what's the big fucking deal, kind of thing. I It's interesting to me, the way it's shaken things, loosened her in a way that I've never seen before, right? It's not that we didn't have conversations about it before but, I don't know, I don't think she got it. As opposed to her sisters and brothers, will actively push against it. It was never that so much, it was just, well, yeah, that's really bad. But now, I mean, we have hours and hours of conversations of just, how the fuck have I not paid attention to this? How the fuck if I lived my entire life not understanding how, and completely, fucked things are for people that aren't white in this country? It's been an interesting thing to see. I think she's hopeful that her sisters and brothers will wake up and get it. I don't think they will. They're about as deeply entrenched in that kind of bullshit as it gets. But, yeah, it's been interesting to listen to my mother, of all people, have long conversations about this. When John Lewis passed, she was talking about, how did I never really pay attention to who this man was? How did I not know his life and his legacy and his history? Yeah, it's been an interesting come to Jesus moment, in some ways for her. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's funny, when I started this podcast many years ago, the first thing I did was a series of interviews on why some people change and why some people don't, right. I talked to people [inaudible] they're right there, the early episodes still existent. Should be on iTunes, and whatever I talk to. That time I was mostly tarot focused so I've talked to a bunch of tarot readers about it. It's, nobody's got an answer for that, right. I think that it's such a significant question now, right. Can we understand how to make change in society? I think that we're seeing a lot of stuff around that, that the answer is, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it can't be polite, maybe it can't be quiet, maybe it can't be whatever, right? Because, I see the things that make change, and the quiet, polite route is predominantly a route of quiet and polite with money and power behind it, right? You know? Aidan: Oh, yeah. You get to be very quiet and polite if you have lots of privilege. Andrew: Right? But also, thinking about the people who follow Stalking Skulls. They're our groupies, right? They are those people who are part of our magical communities, right? I think that it's such a... number one, if we want to work magic, we have to try our best to see the world as it is, right? That means, from my point of view, seeing racism and sexism, and all the different things that are going on, right, and engaging with that, right. I think that it's not that you can't do magic without being aware of lots of things, but I think that the more aware we are, the more it gives us capacity to see and make change both in ourselves, and depending on what's going on in the world too, or see where change might be able to happen.  Aidan: Yeah, I think that it's very interesting on the magic side, because I agree with you totally. The more aware you are of how things are unfolding or how things can unfold or how things... for me, my own tendencies to, where will I not consider change? Because, there are places that I really don't want to do that, like quitting coffee, which I did. Andrew: What? Aidan: Because, my wife finally said, I don't think this is working well for you, even though you've been doing it for 40-something years so you should drop all of the caffeine. I, totally, entrenched for several hours and then went, Okay, I know that this is not good. I said, I need some space to go and think about this, and went, okay, let's examine myself and go, oh, yeah, this is typical junkie behavior. It's the same as any other addiction I've dealt with, so I'm not really down with that. So, something's got to change. But, if I didn't have the ability to go, okay, I'm being given information of everyone outside of me that I don't like. I've been given a suggestion that I don't like.  Yes, this is an entirely personal and minor one, but if I can't actually go, okay, this is also from somebody that I believe is serious and has intelligence. So maybe, I should take some time and figure out why I don't want to hear it, let alone consider it. It's an interesting thing. I think that's critical in magic. I think it's critical in life, but we can get away with it without doing it. It's just not necessarily the best way, I don't think. Andrew: Yeah, I don't even know what else to say about this. I'm just, "Fuck!" I think that's part of what's tough about the racial issue. It's like, "Man." I think that there are plenty of places to go look up what you could do, right? You know I mean? Fabeku: Absolutely.  Andrew: It's not that I [crosstalk] specific things or I'm not taking actions around it, right. But, I think that this moment where the scope of COVID, the scope of these issues is so big, so daunting, right? Yeah, it's [inaudible] this space where it's [inaudible], so big so much. It's, yeah, staring at that abyss, right, and know that it's staring back at you and then start walking into it, right. But, nonetheless, it's interesting. It's interesting times, for sure.  Fabeku: Yeah. I think, for me, a lot of the magic, personally, has been aimed at either expanding or maintaining that capacity, right? Because, I think that one of the things that's easy to do when we're looking at something daunting, whether it's the racial issues or the virus stuff or personal, whatever it is, you just shut down, numb out, turn off. Obviously, I think, for the people that have the privilege to be able to do that, that's the thing a lot of people do. The reality is, there's a ton of people that never have that option, right? Because, they're so fucked, they just can't say, "Well, this is too big. I'm going to watch Netflix for a few hours and not give a fuck."  I think that I've really been looking at that capacity thing. How do you expand the capacity enough to keep your eye on the abyss? To keep walking forward, to not tune out. To not say, well, somebody else will handle it, because, listen, we've done that shift for too long, and, obviously, it's failed in every possible fucking way. Yeah. Yeah, capacity seems to be a big thing right now.  Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I think it's huge, right. I think that it's a piece that I learned mostly from you, right, actually. I had some very clumsy ideas around it, and your work clarified it. It gave me a real focus. It's, yeah, that's what I've been trying to get at, but I couldn't quite see it, right? I think that working to increase capacity, in whatever way you want to work on it, magically and otherwise, I think is crucial, right? I mean, in my parenting, there are definitely times when it's, all right, somebody, somewhere give me some more capacity right now because I am overwhelmed by this business. I think that working to call that in and expand that and stretch that and so on is super, super important, right? Aidan: It's interesting. I think, three days ago, we hit a place, my wife and I, where we went, Okay, we're not actually doing things the way that we know work well for us. So, how do we get that space back? Because, we lived in a cabin with no power or anything for a couple years, and we were really looking at that time, and going, there's a way that we were very well in that space. Anyway, as a result of this... this ties into your capacity thing for BQ, we decided that once we're both awake in the morning and ready to go, we turn on our cell phones, and we turn on the wifi, and we do, maybe, an hour of stuff that needs to happen through those tools. Then, we turn them all the way off, we turn off the wifi, we unplug the router, we turn off our cell phones all the way. We might have some stuff stored on our computer that we downloaded that we need to work on or whatever, but that's it for being connected.  Then, usually, we'll do that again in the afternoon and try and be done with that by about six. This is sharing not... primarily, because it's been incredible for us for just these last few days. So, it's not as much as suggestion as something to think about if people are super overwhelmed, because the 24-hour cycle has become just crushing in a way right now. But, we had a weird day. The first day was really weird. Like, okay, well, what do you do if we're not streaming Netflix for the last three hours of the day? Well, then I'm playing guitar for the last three hours of the day. One of these things is good for me, one of these things is at best neutral, right. The same thing during the day, that the amount of time that we're actually spending talking and working on our plans and thinking about how we do stuff together, is huge. It's probably an 80% increase in the last few days. Instead of the magical overt side of building capacity, which, I'm with you, I learned from Fabeku.  But, there's also the really base level of just going, can you step out of all of the noise and then check in to get what you need. It causes you to weed your sources out, figure out what do you need to see, what do you need to know, and if your time is limited to that and you're not going in and out of it all day, at least, for us, it's been an immense change that I don't see going back to that at all. It's, no, two hours of fucking net and cell phone access is more than planning for us. Everybody's going to be in a different situation. Fabeku: Yeah, this summer, my partner and I have been doing more leisure, and more, just, super-leisure. I've been lucky to be able to take a bit of time off and so on. So, we went to this place and it's a spa place and spent the second day there, literally, just either in the pool, on a lounger beside the pool or eating, having lunch or whatever. Yeah, no phone, no mess, no whatever. I didn't look at my phone, I think I looked at once through the, almost, two days that I was away. What actually needed to be responded to during that time? Not very much, right? I've been working on trying to institute more of this space, right? And, noticing, I like my movies and my TV, but also, I've been reminding myself that if I'm looking at my phone while I'm watching TV, something is wrong, right, for me?  People do whatever makes you happy, right? But its, either the show's not interesting enough, or I'm not looking at something that I need to address or, whatever, in order to be present with the thing that I'm doing. I think that if something's not engrossing me enough that it's holding my attention, well, then what's going on with that, right? I think about, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing again, and when I go by myself and do boulder, I will, sometimes, keep my phone around and read things on my phone while I'm resting in between climbs because I'm just sitting there by myself. But, last night, I went with my friend who I go with every week, and I left my phone in my locker, which is not a thing I would have done, at some point. I would have brought it with me, I would have checked in every now and then and whatever. But, it's, what am I doing, I've got a person to talk to, I've got an activity that I'm engrossed in. Yeah.  Aidan: Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Yeah, I had a place, I guess, it was about a month and a half ago which is interesting because, again, my life isn't that different, pandemic-wise than it is usually. But, I hit a place where I really couldn't get into any of the movies, any of the TV shows, anything. Even stuff that I like, wasn't happening. That moved me in that direction, and I shifted back towards reading more. Then, one of the weirdest things that we've had and I'm sure that there's lots of people that have studied things like EMF and all of that is, we live in a really quiet house because we're on a couple acres in a really quiet town. But, at the point that the phones are actually turned off and the computers are off and the wifi is off, it feels so quiet. In a way that even if the router is still on, it doesn't. Which makes sense, we know that these things are radiating stuff.  But yeah, it's a crazy difference to go, "That's noticeable. That is really different", and then balancing that out from, we're all old enough to have not had these things. So you go, "How interesting is that? This is really the first big chunk of my life, probably, felt like this, and what did I do? I played music, I read books, I talked to the people who around me, I engaged in a very different way." It's not to say I want to throw all that stuff away, but, definitely, it's opened my eyes to finding its place, rather than just letting it find its place in my life, I want to be the one that decides what its place is. Andrew: Yeah, I think it's a really good way to put it, right? Aidan: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Andrew: So, now we all need to do a group working to break the internet's hold on us. It's an exorcism of sorts. Aidan: I don't if we're the ones who need it from what I see. Andrew: Wow. Did you do any magic around quitting coffee or did you just stop?  Aidan: No, my wife is our house apothecarist and herbalist so she treated it as a situation that could be dealt with herbs and using them in a homeopathic way. Not really using homeopathic medicines, but using some tinctures that she'd made. So, she's having me check-in with her every couple hours, "Tell me what's going on? How's your head? How's your... How's this, how's that?" Because, my tonsils were going off a little bit. I definitely detoxed like a crazy person for the first five days. That's always one of those signs. I had that same experience when we quit... when we went paleo, and we dropped all processed foods and all the grains and stuff. This is the total TMI, but you can absolutely tell how foul you are inside by how foul your poop is when you quit eating it. Your body goes, "Oh, you're not going to put more in, okay, well have this because we don't want it anymore."  Andrew: Get rid of all of it.  Aidan: Get rid of all of it, because oh, that's nasty. So, I think that now that my liver and all of that have had some time to back off away from the caffeine, things feel good, but I didn't have to do magic on this one.  Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [inaudible], Fabeku, is giving up coffee in your future? Fabeku: You know, actually, yeah, I haven't had any caffeine since early May, I think?  Andrew: Wow.  Fabeku: Yeah, for me, I reached a point to, between some body stuff and just the chaos and the anxiety of the moment, I'm, "What fuck am I doing? What the fuck am I doing?" Because, I really think up until then, I was drinking either coffee or yerba mate, then I'd throw in some caffeine pills. I'm, "What the fuck am I doing? This makes no sense."  Andrew: What are you, 16? Fabeku: Exactly. Acting like [inaudible] 7-Eleven to get [manodos] or whatever the fuck those things were. It was absurd. I think, for me... and this is what Aidan was talking about, about not doing things in a way that works. It was like, listen, if I'm structuring my life in a way that this makes sense, then something's wrong because this doesn't make any sense at all. If you're recreationally enjoying coffee, one thing. Chugging caffeine all day and then throwing a fistful of caffeine pills on top of it, it's, listen, something is sideways. So, yeah, for me, it's been, yeah, late April, early March, or early May, since I've had any caffeine at all. Aidan: Oh, very good.  Fabeku: Yeah. Aidan: So, I could blame you, it was you, reaching out through the ethers, right? Fabeku: I want decaffeinated company.  Andrew: Oh, boy. No, I feel so embarrassed about my coffee cup [inaudible]. Fabeku: [inaudible] on.  Andrew: I actually know that it's not great for me. Well, it's part of a bad cycle for me, right? For me, coffee and being too busy, just go hand in hand, right? When I stop being too busy, then I stop hitting the coffee. It's just it rolls back. I remember when I moved into the last location where the fire was, I had quit coffee, I quit sugar, and I was just eating food, right? Making my own food most of the time, and I felt great. Then, I spent a month building a new shop. So, getting up as early as I could, doing construction, going to my old space, seeing clients, going to the new space, working until I felt like I might be a danger to myself, stopping, and I was just doing that. I did that every day for a month, right?  Somewhere in there, one of the people who was helping was, "I've got to take a coffee break and go to Tim Hortons and get something." I was, "Yes, give me coffee." Right? Then, probably, a few days later it was, "Yeah, get me a donut, too." And, that it was that was it, right, because it was just an unreasonable time. Then, been sort of, on and off wrestling with it ever since, right? I think that this time actually... again, going into COVID, I was maybe drinking more coffee when I get up kind of thing, right? But now, I'm having three again and I'm, ah, it's not ideal, but also, this is hangover of the massive pace that I've been running on, and trying to... my life is slower, but I have that velocitization like I've been on the highway, right, where I feel like I've go faster than I do. So, I'm sure everybody's loving it right now, conversation about our caffeine habits.  All right, it's official, Stacking Skills is anti-coffee. Stop it, it's bad for you. Just kidding, do what you want. There's a show called Beastmaster. You guys know that show? It's a super obstacle course kind of thing, right? If you like watching people with ridiculous physical capacities, to ridiculous challenges and climbing over things and swing from stuff, go check it. But, either way, it doesn't matter so much. But, I was noticing that all the people who were on it were working on themselves to get better, physically, and working on themselves as a person and working whatever. You see a lot of that in a lot of places, right. Certainly, if you're on the socials, you'll see that stuff a lot, right. I was, "Maybe, I'm done working to evolve. Maybe this idea of self-improvement is one that I should just jettison." What happens if I don't try and self-improve, but instead, just live and navigate? Right?  Does that mean that I'm going to stop learning new things? Of course, it doesn't, right? Does it mean that I'm going to stop making changes in my life? No. But, if there's this narrative of improvement, or evolution or whatever around these kind of things, I feel like there's a real pitfall in that. I don't buy into too much, but a little every now and then I do. I'm, "It's okay to be done with that. Just be like, this is just my life. I'm just navigating my life now". Is it going to change? Yeah. Is it going to change radically over the next 10 years? Maybe. But, does it have to do with evolution or, that kind of stuff? The perpetual cycle of self-improvement and so on. I don't know that I want anything to do with that, in the way that I see it anyway. Aidan: I go off about this somewhere, recently, I think. It's probably in Weaving Fate, I don't know. Which is about the whole thing about optimal now, right? I think this is totally tied in there. It's optimal nutrition, optimal training, optimal study habits, optimal work habits. I think it doesn't serve anything. It's, well, that's great if you're already... if you're already on Beastmaster and you're trying to win, then yes, you need to be worried about optimization. But, if you're climbing rocks or lifting weights, because you enjoy it, or you think it makes you healthier, then optimization is probably not actually all that relevant to you. It's another marketed obsession.  Andrew: But I feel like I see it in magic, too, right? Aidan: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Andrew: A little while back, I posted something being, "Hey, everybody, don't forget, astrology is completely optional, right? You actually don't need to do anything with astrology to do magic." This isn't a criticism of this direction, right. But, the swing into grimoire magic and the resurgence of astrology as a prominent influence in spiritual and occult communities over the last five years, or whatever it's been. It's always been there, but it's really been ramping up, right, to be a thing that you see on the internet all the time. I think that there's this notion towards optimal and less around magic too, right. Well, I better make sure that this is the most astrologically auspicious moment that I have summoned the angels and the four governors, and the four kings and the [inaudible], and on and on and on, towards stuff.  I think that there's a direct or indirect pressure from things moving in that direction that I think doesn't need to be a part of any of it, right. It's all really deeply optional. Yet, isn't presented as optional, right. There's a drive behind it. Because, one of the things that was really interesting in the comments on that post, right, was people... it's the internet, people want to share their opinions and stuff, which is great, and people jumping in and being, "Well, you're being influenced whether you know it or not. Whether, you're whatever." I'm, "But, are we? Are we really?" I don't know about that. I'm not sure that I believe that big, grand narrative behind all these different things, is universal. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've talked- Aidan: Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's an interesting one. Lonnie and I were talking about this a little bit. My take has been since I got what I thought was... I started getting respectable results from my magic, was to go really hard on those things. The things that are working, I want to get really good with. I think the term I used... it made Lonnie laugh because I said, "If sigils are your jam, be a savage sigil magician, right, and see if you need anything else. Because you may not." I think this is where I totally agree with that is, there's an amassing of classically, historically relevant information that is fabulous, if that's what you're into. But, there's some dude out in the bush somewhere in some country who is whatever, he's got the skull of some rodent, and a little fire made of twigs, and you don't want to fuck with that guy. He's never heard of any of this shit you're talking about?  It is totally my take. I also think that if we look at it historically, that's the history of magic, except for the last equivalent of 10 minutes. So, people want to go, "Well, this is the thing." Yeah, for the last few hundred years, and that's a blip. That's, of course, my take. Take whatever you want.  Fabeku: I was talking to somebody. I made some planetary magic talismans and turned out remarkably potent and effective. They were saying, "Oh, but, when you made them, this planet was doing this thing in the sky. So, the talismans should have been fucked. How did you make them and they worked?" I said, "Because, I don't give a fuck what the planets are doing in the sky. It doesn't matter." So, this idea that it's always an influence whether you know it or not, I'm with you, I don't know that that's true. At least, I don't know that it's a prominent enough influence to matter.  I think a lot about currents, right? I think that for people immersed in a particular current, the effects or the shaping influence of that current is going to be stronger because you're immersed in it. I'm not saying there's no effect, but it seems to be less of a factor than somebody who is super centered in whatever current is, whether it's astrology or anything else, I think it's the same shit. I think there's this idea that you have to be immersed in a billion different currents and have your eye on them and line them all up in some kind of perfect Venn diagram of magic. That doesn't make any sense to me. One, I don't know if it's doable. Two, I don't know that it is actually necessary for most people. I think it's a weird thing.  Going back to the self-improvement stuff, a conversation I had with a client last week, they showed up with all of the shit that they wanted to sort out this magical strategy for. As they were talking, my body started to tighten up. There was just this feeling of grinding and grinding and grinding and it was, "I don't know how to do this, and what to do about this." I said, "Listen, we can circle back to this in a second but"... It was all like, doing more. More money, more this, more that, which is, again, fine, there's nothing wrong with it. I've done a shitload of magic for more stuff, it's fine. But I said, "Have you considered doing magic for more joy, for more flow, for more peace, for more ease, for more creativity?" There was this long silence, and then they started to cry because they never considered that. They came with this To-Do List of, "Okay, help me figure out how to do these 10 things to do more, to optimize, to improve.? I said, "Cool, do that. But, what if you also had more joy in your life, and that was the focus? Especially now as fucked as everything is."  I agree, I think that's this weird trap that we get into with the self-improvement stuff. It's just another version of grinding. It's just another version of never being enough. Never having enough, not pushing hard enough. Again, I think in this global moment of all moments, fuck. Let's look at some shit that's not that, let's look at some shit that is ease and peace and coherence and whatever the fuck it is. Because again, I'm going back to the capacity stuff, at some point, you can't expand capacity infinitely enough to just keep grinding on every possible fucking front. It's just not doable. Yeah, I think it's super easy to fall into that shit with magic and everything else. But yeah, it's a mess.  Andrew: So I want to circle back to something you said, and then come back to this as well because I want to talk about both. But, I think that, I [inaudible] this way. There was this big push to go back to, is there a singular truth, right? We can't deny that influence of Greek thought and other thought on our culture, right? You know what I mean? If we can go back to those philosophers and see the origin of stuff and see the origin of Western magic, going back to some of that stuff, in certain ways, right? That's cool and dandy and all, right. I think that if we look at the astrologies or other systems, I think that they're holistic models of everything, right, which is amazing. I think that having, and participating in, a holistic model of the universe, magically speaking, is a powerful thing to be engaged with. I think that the thing is that in Kumi, right, Orisha tradition, it's a holistic model of the universe that has no relationship to planets at all.  So, if both are describing something, and they're both describing it accurately within their holistic model, it doesn't mean that anything crosses over from those, and whatever that actual experience of the universe or... whatever's going on that we're engaging through one of these models, it's all accounted for in one way or another, right? Aidan: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Andrew: And, it's not necessarily to say that we could equate, well, Egon said you were having this problem right now, ancestors say you're having this problem right now through divination, astrology says you're having this problem because of whatever, this hard planetary placement in your family situation or whatever, but those things aren't the same. Right? They don't have the same meaning. They don't have the same lived experience. They certainly have very different solutions and approaches, right. I think that this notion, which to some extent goes back to the Greeks and people who are smarter than me about philosophy might trace it further, that there's this true universal core that we can participate in through our intellectual perception.  Then, you compound that with, basically, the Victorian era magicians, Golden Dawn, Crowley. All those people who are like, everything is interwoven. Right? Everything is the same and symbolically resonant with each other at some level. I think it's an extension of colonialism and of that Victorian worldview to continue that process. Somebody sent me a list of [inaudible] and how they line up on the tree of life and they're, "What do you think? I'm, "I think this is colonial crap. I think it's not helpful. I think it's completely meaningless and disrespectful to this other completely coherent and self-reliant worldview."  It's not to say that there aren't philosophical things or similarities that we could talk about the crossover those things, but I think that the minute that we start to say that one is inherently true, or that those bridges are inherently true, I think that we start to get into very dicey waters, and probably we're wrong. Does that make sense?  Aidan: Yeah, totally. This came up recently in the Six Ways group, that somebody was saying that their background is in Western magical Kabbalah.  Andrew: Yeah.  Aidan: They were, "I'm having trouble mapping this kind of elements, middle world, world above, world below to that map." It's, because they're not talking about same thing. You can find somebody, I'm sure, who can give you something that says that this is, but if we look at it, the model that I'm using is rooted on, what would now be considered, very primitive people's viewpoints of the world. This was not folks who were trying to work out mathematics of language in the written word, this is a totally different thing. They were just looking at, what do we see and what do we interact with, and what is that thing?  It's not a map of something that you fit everything into? It's not a tool to categorize. It's, these are places you can interact with, or beings you can interact with that dwell in those places. In that sense, it's, yes, it's a metaphorical model, but it's not trying to be a universal model. It's, if you want to know what the underworld is, go there and learn that thing. You're not going to be able to map enough information on top of that lack of experience to make up for that experience, right?  It's, again, it's nothing against any of the systems, it's just realizing that they are not all the same. Like you said, with the Orisha tradition and the tree of life, they're not the same thing. They're not intended to do the same things. They're not experiential tellings of the same event, however you want to view it. I think it's a very interesting thing. I wanted to also tap into what Fabeku said because I'm also a total current guy. So, I'm going to do the work when I need to do the work, and when the allies are on board with it. That may be related to what's going on in the heavens, I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to start work based on what I think that is according to what somebody tells me is going on astrologically if the allies aren't going, "This is a good time to do that." But, if they'll say, hey, it's a go, and everybody else is, it's total shit city, it's, I don't care what you're seeing because my people say, it's a go and maybe we need to do this thing in total shit city. Again, what does that have to do with optimal. Sometimes it's shit city and you've still got to work. Fabeku: It's the title of your third book, Shit City.  Aidan: Shit City. No, at least the subtitle.  Fabeku: I totally get what you're talking about, Andrew, with the colonialism kind of thing, right? Because, I remember having a conversation with somebody, I was talking about was Oshun, the Orisha, and they were saying, "Oh, yeah, I totally get it because I've worked with Venus for however long. I'm, "What the fuck does that have to do with what I just said? I'm not talking about Venus, I'm talking about Oshun." They said, "It's the same thing." I said, "It's not the same fucking thing. It's not the same thing. They're entirely different." Are there places that, like you said, might crossover or ping a little bit? Sure, But, it's not the same thing. It's weird to me that we apply it with shit like this, but we don't say, well, this river is the same as that river or that ocean is the same as that creek, or a rose is the same as an orchid. It's not the fucking same.  Sure, they both have roots, they grow in soil, they're flowers, so they're similar in that way. But beyond that, it's not the same shit, right. I think, at best, it's sloppy thinking, at worst, it's all sorts of other shit, when we start pretending that this is that, is that, is that, and it's all different names for the same shit. I don't think that's true. I think it's it's lazy thinking, right, because it's convenient to say, Oh, well, no, I know Oshun because I know Venus, so I know Aphrodite. So, but that's not real. I think then when we do that, we miss the nuance, we miss the capacity to build a relationship that's coherent with whatever we're building a relationship with. Because, that would be like me saying, well, Andrew and Aidan are the same. No, you're not.  Andrew: [inaudible] start with A. [crosstalk]- Fabeku: Exactly, right.  Aidan: We wear glasses and we have tattoos. All the evidence is there. Fabeku: For sure. We don't do that in this way, but we do it with magic. I think it's a total failure of perception, and logic and relationship and understanding and nuance, and I'm just unconvinced that it works.  Andrew: Well, I think, as animism has resurfaced as a world model in certain pockets of the occult communities, I think that people are starting to understand that all of these plants are people, right. All of these stones and places, that they are their own things. I think that we haven't extended that to spirits, right? To say that, does Oshun have their own concrete specific existence, right? Sure. Beyond that, even, Fabeku's Oshun has its own concrete, specific, singular, individual manifestation that's different than my Oshun. Right? Not just because, maybe, our paths are different, or maybe this or that or who it came from, no, it's own distinct, separate living entity that is not the same as all the rest of them and there are relationships and, within religion, there are those, well, they're all Oshuns. But you know, Eleggua versus [inaudible] versus whatever, they're all different. The priests who have those Orisha's, each of those Oshuns has their own character, right, because they're their own people. Right.  I think it's a place where the magical community... I'm going to be curious to see if there is a point at which people stop doing this and start really holding that devotion to Kali or to whoever without any sense of crossover, and, so on. I think it'll be very interesting to see what comes of it, if anything. Fabeku: I think even beyond spirits... spirits in the usual sense, if we go to plants as people, you and I can talk about our experiences with rose or with sunflower or with gardenia or with mandrake. I'm willing to bet that your experience with rose is different than mine. Maybe they overlap in places, but there's nuances, there's differences, right? Just like two different people that know you are going to experience you in different ways. It's the same thing, which is where I think the common logic of, okay, well, what does rose do, what does rose quartz do, what is amethyst? I don't know, what the fuck does it do for you? I can talk about what it does for me and that might have nothing at all to do with your relationship with it. that might have nothing to do with whether that stone person or plant person will work magic with you, the type of magic that it works, how well you get on with that particular spirit.  That's the thing. I was just talking about this yesterday when I was teaching, there's a worldview problem, right, because we think that what does rose do, is a real question. It's not really a real question. But, we keep answering it, and so we're perpetuating the idea that it's a real question, but I don't think in practice it is.  Andrew: Yeah, I think it's true, plants, in the same way it's true of Orisha, within the traditional context, within traditional context of their religion, we don't say, "Oh, you've got a problem with work, who's the Orisha of work who's going to fix this thing for you, right?" We say, "You have a problem with work, will anybody come forward to fix this for you?" Maybe, it's an Orisha that we associate with work, like Ogun. Or maybe, Obatala is, "I've got you, brother, don't worry. You're covered. Give me this and we'll be good." The answer's to those are super nuanced by divination, by Odu, by story, by knowledge of Ebo, like, offerings, and so many things that are impossible from the outside. Those kinds of ways of working, only, can exist within the traditional context, I think.  In the same way, burdock is a really close friend of mine. Me and burdock, we're tight. And, the things that burdock and I have had conversations and done, have nothing to do with traditional associations, but it is also a source of power that can be applied in many directions, if the spirit of the plant is amenable, right? It's, yeah, maybe spearmint would be better at getting you some luck right now. It's a more traditional association, right? "But, you know what, I'm going to work a little extra hard, because it's not my area of expertise, but I'm still going to make it happen for you." Problem solved, right.  Fabeku: Well, I think the other super relevant point of what you said is that, not only is that the way to do it, but it's an individual thing. So, all three of us could have problems with work, all three of us could sit in Divine and get entirely different solutions to how to fix the work shit, even if the works shit looks the same. Right? So, one of the things that happens a lot when I'll do some divination in a private space of mine, when I post them, I get the question... It's not a criticism of anybody that asked the question, but I'll answer somebody's question... usually I'll include some magical stuff to do, and, inevitably, people will say, "Oh"... Well, let's say somebody's asking about a relationship thing and then we talk about whatever the solution is, inevitably, somebody will come along and say, "Oh, is this a thing that anybody can do for relationship stuff?" No, it's not. Listen, I don't know, maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. But, this was a specific solution given to a specific person with a specific problem based on these cards that were pulled. It's not, here's the cure-all for everybody with a relationship problem. It's one conversation, one relationship in this moment.  Again, to me, that's the way that this shit really works. But, if we try to turn that into, oh, well, this thing will do the same shit for everybody having a relationship thing. I don't think that's real. I think if it does work, I think we've gotten lucky. But, I don't think that's an indicator that it's some universal solution. I get it- Andrew: [crosstalk], you can be the same solution for the same person down the road- Fabeku: Exactly- Andrew: On the same spot, right? Fabeku: Right. It is a very specific solution to that person, with this thing, with me, in this conversation, in this moment. Aidan: Absolutely. Yeah. That's, I think, the thing that I hit on a lot with people, and even with people with Six Ways that have got that, we'll be trying to figure out, "I'm now working on this, but I haven't got here yet, and I feel bad that I haven't got here yet." I'm, "Don't do that. Just find a way in. That's the whole idea here, is find a way into anything that works for you, and see where you can go with it." Because, that's where you get that depth. Then, you go, "Oh, yeah." I've got people saying I need to talk to the goats or I need to talk to some deity and or I need to get right with... to do some stuff to remediate some astrological influences, but maybe you can do all of the things that you need to do with your allies that you don't even know their names, that you just make offerings to and that's your only relationship, and all that you might have to do, is to go in and go, "This is hard, I need help with this or I would like to more capacity for joy in this because I feel really just fucked up by what's going on", right.  For everybody that I know that figures this piece out, they're really good magicians, with the work that they do works for them, and that doesn't have anything to do. Some of them know everything about everything, and some of them know nothing, essentially, from that other person's point of view. So, it is, it's about current, it's about relationship, it's about that reality of context. So, that, yeah, you and I could both be having trouble getting our point of view across to our partners, and it could have, on the surface, in the way we describe it, in the way we describe that it feels, it can all seem exactly the same, and it could be totally not the same.  I think this is going on constantly. It has to, right? But, magic tends to go, here's the formula to fix this. I've not really ever seen that to be true. It was, realizing, oh, if I'm just playing within the structure of, what Jason called zone rights... So this was, for me, LBR star ruby-based stuff, just as the shape of the operation, not using those words forever, but I figured out I could do all of the various operations that I read about in the magical books using these, even without learning all the different pentagrams. I wasn't doing that, I was doing incredibly basic versions of it. It's, no, I can connect to the powers and the quarters and the above and below and then put forward that I want help healing this or help this person out in their relationship, right, because I was building relationship with my allies and with that current.  So, yeah, great. So, Hermanubis is the one who does that. I don't know that guy, why would I go there? I've people saying, "Yeah, we got it." It's, I don't know if they are the ones who do that. They say they are and I have faith in them, so I'll go that route.  Fabeku: Yeah, maybe it's time for faith to make a comeback. How about that? [crosstalk]. What would that look like in the magical world, right? Aidan: Man. What is faith if you don't have religion?  Fabeku: Good question. Aidan: What is your faith in? Fabeku: Uh-huh (affirmative)- Aidan: Or rather, what is your faith for, which might be the better question.  Andrew: Really, the only answer to that should be, everybody's face should be in Stacking Skulls. In Stacking Skulls we trust. Stack them 23 high, and you're good. Everything [crosstalk]. The world will unlock, [crosstalk] will open.  Aidan: Once the stack gets taller than you, while you're standing up, things get better.  Andrew: Right. Back to my mind, we went on this lovely detour into things and I'm still, all right, but, what the hell? What the hell, universe? What the hell, 2020? What the hell is going to go on? Does anybody find feel like they're doing stuff or needing to do stuff? Maybe this is just a reiteration of the capacity conversation, but to just manage themselves through this time. You know?  Aidan: I definitely have some of that. Again, we talked about that earlier for me, backing off of the internet and connectivity and just going, Oh, yeah, I really like fooling around on the guitar for hours. I like talking to my wife for hours. Then, being really aware. In our house, we have this saying that, that the end of the world is happening all the time. But, sometimes it's very obvious for the people that it's happening in because it's clearly catastrophic, right. But, it's happening. It's ending, it's reforming, it's changing. I think, right now, is a really interesting moment because it's so clear that it's changing in a really huge way for a lot of people.  I don't think, we, in America... using the US term of America, which is totally wrong, but I'm going to do it here, because that's the language that's most appropriate here in America... I don't think all of this stuff has piled in on each other simultaneously in such an obvious and unrelenting way. So, it is. It seems clear to me that we're in a really major crisis point, at least in North America, which is what I can see in the United States primarily. It is an interesting thing, because if I look forward or in backwards, I can see the roots of the moment we're in, I can see logical outcomes, I can see outcomes that I would prefer, I can see the potential backlashes to the outcomes that I would prefer, right.  That's, I think, what's really interesting to me, is, I see, because we're in this election cycle and because things have been so insane politically here... I hope that people aren't assuming that if we have a change in the presidency, that that will fix what's going on. Because, we've had a whole lot of changes in the presidencies and they have not fixed what's going on.  Andrew: Yeah.  Aidan: So, yes, I would think that that would be a step in the right direction, for sure, but then you got to step on the gas at that point, if you want to see a lasting and real change. That's step one. Andrew: Yeah, for sure, right. Because, if there's a change in the presidency, that's great. But, that doesn't automatically change the system, and that systemic piece of stuff. The piece that is [inaudible]. Yeah. I've been going back to an old mantra of mine, which I've adapted slightly for this situation. It goes like this, other people's urgency doesn't need to be my urgency. I think that because there's so much going on right now, there are a lot of people who have a lot of urgency around stuff, right.  I remember, when my first godfather always used to say... because he ran a store and was a really well-known psychic in the Detroit area, and he used to say, "Look, if it's an emergency, you call 911. Otherwise, you can make an appointment and come see me whenever you can come and see." I've been working to not act with urgency, because I think that when stuff is as wonky and strange as it is, consideration and pacing and time and respecting capacity, and all those kinds of things, is super helpful, super important, I think. So, it's really, well, that's cool and all, but I'm not going to run around for this, I'm not going to run around for whatever. With my kids too, it's, is there an actual emergency, or is there some discomfort that maybe I'ma let you sit with for a bit so you can learn how to sit with discomfort instead of jumping into things, right?  It's an imperfect science, for sure. Right? It's just a general approach. But, I think that, yeah, that, I can't run around on this. I can't make myself do whatever. I can just do what I can do and I'm going to own my own directive around that, right. Sometimes I might be looking at something like, yeah, that is really urgent, I should jump on that. I should push myself to do that, even though I know there'll be a falling for it someway. But, yeah, that's been my thing.  Fabeku: I think, for me, it's been, because the clients stuff has been super busy, I've had to figure out a way beyond what I did previous to this, too, to not absorb that high-level, constant anxiety, angst, panic, fear, whatever it is, because, after a few weeks of that shit when all this stuff really ramped up, I just felt like I'd been through the blender. It's, okay, well, this is not ending anytime soon, and I'm happy to support people, and this can't be the way it goes. This can't be the way it goes. I think that's probably been the biggest piece, for me, was figuring out how to keep how to keep that capacity, but also how to not end up, at the end of the day or the end of the week, feeling like I've just been taken apart with this stuff. So, part of that has been magical practice, part of that has been mundane stuff, part of it has just been, okay, realistically, given this intensity, this is how many times a week I can have conversations with people that are really difficult and adjusting accordingly. Like you said, in some ways, not giving in to that, okay, but there's more people. There's 10 spots and 30 people, so let me figure out how to get 30 spots. That's not the answer, because then we end up back with coffee all day, caffeine pills, nonsense shit, right.  So, it really is like, this is what I can do and do it well, do it effectively, and also not be dismantled at the end of this, and it is what it is. That's it. There's no more space, there's no more bandwidth. There's no more room to fuck around with a calendar. Andrew: Hmm, yeah.  Aidan: I think that that thing too, which is what you brought on, the realizing where you've got to back down, or ramp things down, is really important, because there is so much out there, just saying, no, just go harder. Grind. There's times for that, but all of them all of them are not that time. Andrew: For sure. By where I go climbing... it's probably not surprising, it's an industrial building and there's some CrossFit type stuff in there, right? One of them has something painted on their garage door to their space. I think it says, "Somebody with less time than you is working out right now." I'm, that's cool. Good, for fuckin' [inaudible].  You know what I mean? A couple years ago, I shifted my climbing goals to be, still be climbing at the end of the year. That's my climbing goal, right. I have some very loose... I'd like to be able to consistently climb 5.8, 5.9. I'd like to be able to cycle 40 kilometers, 50 kilometers anytime. There's some very loose things that are indicators to me that I'm spending enough time being active to be able to continue being active, and that I believe that those things are good for me. Not in and of themselves, because they're indicators of a broader attention to my health, right.  Am I ever going to climb super higher levels than I'm climbing right now, I have no idea. Maybe, probably not. Does it matter? It doesn't matter. Am I always going to be able to cycle as far as I can cycle today? I'm doing a lot of distance cycling. Nah, probably not. There'll be times where I'm, I can't cycle that far right now. It doesn't matter. You know? Just keep showing up. Keep showing up. Keep doing the stuff to rest and recharge to show up.  Aidan: Yep, absolutely. I've definitely had to make adaptations on all of that stuff just because I'm getting smart enough to go, oh, this isn't really doing what I want it to do. So, instead of more, what does less do? I'm working out about half as much as I used to, and it's working better because my body can recover from that better. Interesting, okay.  Andrew: It makes sense, right? It makes sense. Well, maybe, we'll wrap it up here. I assume everybody knows where everybody is, but just in case, Aidan, where do people find you?  Aidan: You can find me at aidanwachter.com and as Aidan Wachter on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, whatever that other one is.  Andrew: What's the name of your podcast, that people search? Aidan: My podcast is called Aidan Wachter Six Ways. It's up on Google, Stitcher, Apple, and someone else... I can't think who the other one is right now, but it's generally out there in the main places.  Andrew: I hear it gets heavy rotation in the underworld, so you can just go there and listen to it. Aidan: Exactly, you can find it down there. Yeah, you can get my books at all the major retailers. Andrew: Fabeku? Fabeku: Fabeku.com, Facebook, and, yeah, the book will be out in October with Revelore. Andrew: It's exciting.  Aidan: I'm stoked about that.  Fabeku: Hmm, me too.  Andrew: Yeah, and, obviously, I'm the Hermit's Lamp everywhere. Podcast is the Hermit's Lamp Podcast everywhere. I didn't talk about it, really, in this, but I'll throw it out here at the end. I'm going to be launching a Kickstarter for my next Oracle deck, which has the title of the Bacon Wizard Breakfast Oracle. So, if you like food and you like divination, I can certainly... I was going to launch it, actually, back in March. My original timeline was end of March, Kickstarter, but obviously didn't do that. But, it's going to be end of September, early October, Kickstarter for that, and you can check it out on my website and other places as I'm building up to that. So, all right. Thanks, folks. Have a great rest of your day. Aidan: Thanks for having us.  Andrew: Oh, my pleasure. 

Stephen Olyniuk Interviewer: So in today's podcast, we'd like to welcome Andrew Ferris. He's the development officer and program director for the children's miracle network. So, welcome! Andrew: Thank you. Good to be here. Interviewer: And one of my first questions is gonna be- tell us a little bit about yourself, Andrew, and how you became involved with the Children's Miracle Network. Andrew: Sure, yeah. Kind of an interesting path how I got to where I am today. So just going all the way back to university, it's kind of when I got first introduced to the child health sector. So, throughout university, I worked as a one-on-one specialist with kids across Manitoba. So I would essentially go on camps across Manitoba and work alongside a child with autism to kind of make sure that they're integrated into the programming stuff. So that's kind of how I got introduced to child health, kind of starting my passion there. But I did a BA in Psychology, and I graduated a University. Got a job in the corporate world. And learned some valuable things, but kind of didn't really feel the passion was there. So I did some research on what options I had for post graduate education. And I actually found this non-profit management, in the business development program for non-profit charity program out in Toronto. And essentially, I applied to it. And within a month, I was pretty much packing my bags and moving out to Toronto. So when I got to Toronto, I completed my program in non-profit management and business development for non-profits and charities. And then I end up getting a job at SickKids, which is a children's hospital in Toronto. And I did some work in the corporate partnerships department. And then I was kind of faced with the difficult decision of: “Do I wanna stay in Toronto or do I wanna come home, bringing what I learned in Toronto back to my home community?” And ultimately, I decided to come back to Winnipeg, just because… I mean, I love it here. It's my home. My friends and family are here. And one of the main reasons why I went to do that non-profit management program was really to improve my home community. So essentially, made the decision to leave all the excitement in Toronto and come back to Winnipeg. And from there, I got a job at Global Philanthropic, which is one of Canada's largest non-profit consulting firms. So we worked alongside charities in Winnipeg, (?), Marymount. And the children's hospital is also one of our clients. And it was through there, I kind of linked with up with the CEO there. And he brought forth this job for me. And I obviously accepted it because I just kind of had that passion for children health at the beginning. And I always did wanna work at a children's hospital. So it was pretty much a no brainer for me. So that's what brought me here today. And I've been directing the Children's Miracle Network program since July of last year. So I'm just over a year now. Interviewer: And throughout the time we've spent together, I find you're very passionate about it. I think you're a great fit. Andrew: I would like to think so! Let's hope. Interviewer: Exactly. So, for people that maybe don't know that Remax has a partnership with the Children's Miracle Network (CMN). And some agents choose to take part, and some don't. So we choose to take part. And we make a donation with every donation that's sold or someone purchased with us. So can you tell us maybe a little bit about the partnership between the CMN and Remax? Andrew: Sure. Let me just kind of explain what CMN is, so people who don't know- know. So essentially, the CMN is a large non-profit organization that operates in Canada and the United States. And their main mandate is to raise critical funds to support specialized equipment for their local children's hospitals. So each state, each province has a children's miracle network hospital. S ours would be the children's hospital in (?). And the CMN has a large portfolio of corporate partners, such as Remax, who each have specialized programs, funding campaigns, that are designed to raise money in support of their local children's hospital. And, I mean, the main mandate is that if we change the health of children, we change the health of the world. We change the health of children in Canada, we change the health future of Canada. So that's really the core of CMN. And in terms of our partnership with Remax, it's actually one of the longest standing partnerships in the CMN. So, it's been operating since 1992. And like you said, the Remax agents have the option to donate certain proceeds from each sale towards the CMN, which goes directly to our local children's hospital and all the local children of Manitoba. So, it's an exclusive program to Remax. And the impact is huge. And it's just a great way that Remax agents are able to engage with our children' hospital. Interviewer: Wonderful, wonderful. And then, you know, what kind of success has the partnership seen in Canada? Andrew: It has seen immense success. So, just in terms of numbers, we have over 7k real estate agents in Canada that are taking part in this program. And in 2019 alone, I believe over 7.5 million had been raised. Just in 2019 in Canada. Interviewer: Wow. Andrew: And that goes, again, directly to the local children's hospital. So, I mean, that's immense impact right there. It's huge. Interviewer: Ok. So that kind of answered my next question to you. What does it mean to the children's hospital to have a community partner and support, such as Remax? Andrew: It means everything. I mean, just in current times with Covid, community partners such as Remax are really the ones that our children's hospitals have relied on. I mean, with Covid, a lot of events, a lot of fundraising things have had to be cancelled. That brings in quite a lot of revenue for the children's hospital. So it's having, our community partners like Remax, that continue these campaigns through Covid, that really do pull us through these tough times. And, you know, our hospital over 130k kids that come through our door every year. And Covid or not, that's happening. You know, that doesn't change. So having the community support, our ups and downs of the economy, whatever, it's just incredibly crucial for us. Interviewer: So then, in 2020, what will money be raised… Like the money that's raised by the Miracle Home Program, what will it be supporting? Andrew: Sure. Every year, through the Remax program, there's kind of 3 pillars that we look to raise money for. So first is revolutionizing treatment and care. Second is for frontline pediatric education and training. And the third is creating healing environments. And for this year, we really focused on that third pillar of creating healing environments. So money raised is really going towards the child life department. Which, at its core, essentially exists to make sure that children and their families have the best possible experience within the children's hospital. Especially when they have to have a long stay. So, the child health department has specialized child health. Our child life specialist who are trained specifically to make sure that these kids get the best care, best… They're in their mental state best as they can be, given the tough times. So some programs of the child life include musical therapy, clown therapy. They have specialized play places. They have a children's hospital TV station that gets aired all throughout the children's hospitals. So again, it's just really meant to make sure that these kids have a positive experience with the hospital. It's very tough for them to be in the hospital. I mean, it's not fun. And it's equally stressful for the parents as well to have a kid in the hospital. And with Covid, too, it's really made things difficult in terms of visitations. So, we've had lots of kids that haven't been able to visit all their family members. And that's very tough for them. And the child department really gets into gear and distracts them and makes them as happy as possible. So that's really the main focus of funds from the Miracle Home Program this year, which again, is incredibly incredibly crucial and very timely with Covid and everything. Interviewer: Wonderful, wonderful organization from the events that we've been out to. And you see the kids light up when they see Doctor Goodbear. Andrew: Yeah. Doctor Goodbear's a staple. He's been around for years, and he's not going anywhere. Interviewer: And I imagine that with Covid that it's more difficult for visits like that to happen, and that they probably don't happen is my guess. So I'm just wondering do they, has that been happening with the television station that they have? Or anything like that that happens? Andrew: So yeah. Like you said, it's been difficult. So we've had to kind of be creative with how the kids are engaged. And the children's hospital TV station is one way that we can kind of get Goodbear in there and use it as a way to kind of make things happy and distract them from the outside world. And how they're not usually able to visit everybody they would be able to. Interviewer: Right. So, how do Remax agents get involved in the Miracle Home Program if they wanted to? Andrew: So it's pretty easy. I mean, every Remax agent is a broker manager. And they would have all the information on how to sign up. So it's very easy. Essentially, they would have that information. You just fill out a quick form and submit it, and you're pretty much good to go. I also encourage any Remax agent in Manitoba to reach out to me as well, just with any questions. You know, maybe I'll get you to share my content information later as well. Interviewer: Absolutely. Andrew: It's a very quick process, really easy. And I'm always happy to answer questions on how to sign up. Interviewer: Ok, great. So, I'd like to lighten things up a little bit towards the end of the podcast and just find out a little bit more about you. What are some of your favorite things? What is your favorite food? Andrew: Favorite food? That's a tough one because I like food a lot. And I'm gonna base it most off of what I order most on Scubidicious, and I think that would be sushi. Interviewer: Sushi? Andrew: Yeah, that would be my number one. Close second would be any type of pasta. Interviewer: Alright. Is there a plug for any sushi restaurants? Andrew: Ok. I'm gonna give you Yujuro on (?) plug. I'll give them a plug for sure for my sushi. That's if I'm eating in. If I'm not eating in, if I'm eating the order, if I'm ordering it, I usually go to walk-on court. Those are my go-to's. Interviewer: Awesome! I'll have to check them out. Andrew: You should. Yeah, you should. Especially Yujuro. I'll say they're good. They know what they're doing! Interviewer: Ok, great. How about favorite movie? Do you have… Andrew: Favorite movie… I would have to say Wolf of Wallstreet. It's a ride. It is a ride. A little bit of long (?), but it's one of my favorite movies. And I've watched it at least 5 times, it's so entertaining. I love Leonardo DiCaprio. He's one of my favorite actors. Interviewer: Yeah. I'd have to agree, he's a magnificent actor. Andrew: Yeah, I almost like every single movie of his. He kills it. Interviewer: And hobbies. Do you have a favorite hobby? Andrew: Favorite hobby? Well, it's kind of seasonal. So in the like nice months, I love hiking. So hiking and walking around in the outdoors. The big thing, like fishing, hiking. I spend time outdoor swimming. That's my main thing. In the winter months, kind of hunker down a little bit. But I like to go skating. I play drums. So I play drums here and there as well. And listen to a lot of music. And obviously watch Netflix and all of that fun stuff. I like to be very social too. So lots of craft breweries. And for food, I told you that. Interviewer: Awesome. You, one of the things you just mentioned, hiking there. Is there any trail that you've been on recently that… Andrew: Oh, man. So I did my Rise of Manitoba today. So I pretty much did, I think I did around 10 or 11 hiking trails in (?) this year. And my favorite would have to be Hudlake trail. Interviewer: Why favorite? Andrew: It's beautiful! I love that one. Second maybe McGillbert Falls is nice. But I don't know, I think (?) trails are my favorite. It's a nice long hike. Whole portions along the lake and it's just insane. And it's pretty challenging too. There's some nice challenging parts which I love. Interviewer: For the past two years, Alicia and I have been doing kind of a “explore Manitoba” every Wednesday. We take the afternoon off and we head out somewhere and we'll do a little post about it. And on social media, that's the thing that gets the most attention. Any time we're out, someone says, “”Hey, we're going to this weekend?” And Hudlake is one of our favorite trails. McGillbert Falls is on our list. We haven't made it through yet, but we'll do that one pretty shortly. And one that's really unique is the devil's punchboal. Andrew: Oh wow! Interviewer: A little bit of desert in the middle of Manitoba. Andrew: It does not feel like Manitoba. I love that. Interviewer: Nope! Andrew: Not at all. And you know, I think there's one… I mean, there's minimal positives of covid. But one, I think for me, and for a lot of other people, is that they've explored Manitoba a little bit more. I mean, not necessarily by choice. But it's kind of forced people to explore their own backyard a little bit more. And I know I have, more than usual, because some days you'll be travelling to other places. But I think people are kind of like learning to appreciate Manitoba a little bit more. And there's so many beautiful spots to go. So, that's awesome! Interviewer: Yeah, you've just got to dress for the winters and you can find beautiful things to do in the wintertime too. Andrew: I know. I'm not really ready, but it is what it is. Interviewer: And one of the things you mentioned- music and drumming. So do you have a favorite type of music or musician? Andrew: Favorite musician? I would have to say Sitting Color would have to be my favorite artist. Music? I won't say I like everything. I respect pretty much every genre. I mean, for me, for drumming I really like some beats and rhythm. So, I mean, you can find that in any music. So I really can't say I would favor genres, just because I respect lots of music. But yes, let's say Sitting Color. In terms of the 90s, I'd say Oasis would be my favorite band. The 90s and… Yeah, I like everything! I don't know. Interviewer: How long have you been drumming? Andrew: Since I was in grade 2. So a long time! It was one of my favorite… Actually, my first word was actually “gums.” And I meant to say “drums.” Interviewer: There you go! Andrew: I was talking about drums. Interviewer: You were the kid that the parents “loved.” You made lots of noise. Andrew: Oh yes! I certainly did. I still remember getting my first drum set. I don't even know how they dealt with that. I really don't. Interviewer: Great. Do you have a favorite day of the week? Andrew: Thursday. I like Thursdays. I think it's because you have the anticipation of Friday being tomorrow, and I don't know… I just feel like I get the most productive on Thursdays. Getting ahead, getting everything done for the weekend. And getting excited for the weekend before. So I'm gonna go for Thursdays. Interviewer: Alright. That's the way it is. Sometimes when you have a deadline or something that gives you that extra push. Andrew: Exactly! I feel like Thursdays- that's my day. That's my day. Interviewer: My final question. What would you say you're most excited about right now? Andrew: Right now? Sounds a little bit weird, but I ordered a new table from (?). Table and chairs. Dining room table. So I'm supposed to be getting that tomorrow, so I'm a bit excited about that. I know it sounds weird, but I like getting stuff in the mail. So I'm excited for that. I'm also really excited for… I live on the river. So I'm really excited for that to freeze over. Because I'm really really excited to… Hopefully, this year, the trail will be open. The skiing trail. Skiing down the (?) for some beers. Interviewer: Awesome! Great. You have to send me a picture of your table when it's all set it. I'd love to see it. Andrew: I'll send you a selfie with my new table. Interviewer: Sure, great. Alright Andrew, I really wanna thank you for coming on and doing this with us. And we wish you all the best. And I hope that the CMN just continues to rise and be successful. Andrew: Awesome! Yeah, thanks Stephen. And again, thank you for all of your work. You're also personally involved with the Children Miracle Home program and working with us as well. So, thank you. And I thank everybody at Remax for continuing all the awesome support for the hospital. Interviewer: Will do! You have yourself a wonderful day, sir! Andrew: You too! Have a good one! Interviewer: Bye!   Andrew Ferris Development Officer & Program Director, CMN Children's Hospital Foundation of MB 204-470-8928   Stephen Olyniuk Alicia Olyniuk stephen@teamolyniuk.com alicia@teamolyniuk.com (204)981-2009 (204)3924262 www.teamolyniuk.com Turning Realty into Reality #realestatewinnipeg #realestatemanitoba

If you want to keep up with what’s going on in the eCommerce industry, the best thing to do is to go straight to the source and ask. But where can you find a group of eCommerce business owners openly talking about their pain points, sharing tips about how they grow their businesses, and combining their knowledge to solve problems together?  Does such a mecca exist?  Andrew Youderian is here to tell you that it does. Andrew is the founder of eCommerce Fuel, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he discusses how he built a community of more than 1,000 seven-figure eCommerce business owners, plus he shares all of the insights he’s gathered along the way. From questions about Amazon, to a crash course in community-building, to the single metric he says should guide eCommerce businesses today… Andrew divulges some of the industry’s best-kept secrets and more in today’s interview.  Key Takeaways: The Value of Selective Community Building: A community is only as strong as the people in it. Together, a community can deliver ideas, content, and capital to other members who would not be able to find those things on their own. But to ensure that all members are receiving value, it is important to be selective about the acceptance process.  Finding Your Way Through The Amazon: “If I'm selling to wholesalers, should I let them sell on Amazon?” “How do I control my brand identity on Amazon?” These questions and more are plaguing the industry and at eCommerce Fuel, the community is gathering to come up with answers, including how to capitalize on the recent delays in shipping Amazon has seen. Meaty Metrics: While most owners will point to revenue as the main metric to judge success, it is widely believed that revenue is one of the least important metrics when judging the health and long-term viability of a business. There are other metrics that are more telling, including repeat purchase rate, and one other that gets very little fanfare but could change the course of your business: price per visitor. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is your host Stephanie Postles and today we're joined by Andrew Youderian, the founder of eCommerceFuel. Andrew, welcome. Andrew: Hey, thanks Stephanie. I appreciate you having me on. Stephanie: So, is a weird feeling a podcaster being interviewed by a podcaster? What are your thoughts right now? Andrew: I think it's great. You have to do all the work and I can just sit back and relax. Well, unless you send some really pointed questions my way, so maybe I shouldn't be relaxed, so we'll see. Stephanie: Oh, yeah. I don't know. Andrew: But, yeah- Stephanie: You might have to sit up straight and get ready, this might be intense. Andrew: This may be, I need to stop slouching here. But no, it's good. Good to be on, it's fun to be on the other side of the mic for a change. Stephanie: So, I want to dive into your company eCommerce Fuel. I looked at it and it seems awesome. It seems like you have gathered so many insights from this company that you've built all around eCommerce, but I want to hear in your words what is eCommerce Fuel? Andrew: At eCommerce Fuel we provide community content and capital to seven figure plus store owners, and so we do that through an online form which is really the heartbeat of our community. We've got over 1,000 vetted store owners, and the idea was really just get a lot of people together that are doing this day in and day out, that we're running seven... our average store owner is probably doing three or four million dollars a year with their business, so that's community aspect. We also do a big event every year for our community through content, like you said I'm a podcaster. I've been doing the eCommerce Fuel podcast for I think it's about seven years now, which is crazy. Stephanie: Wow. Andrew: And then we have a capital arm as well where we invest in promising eCommerce businesses. We have 20 investors that have a lot of similar experience or world class experts, everything from Facebook marketing to email marketing to product design and so we invest in companies that we think are interesting, so that's what we do at eCommerceFuel. Stephanie: That's such a cool model. So, for you podcast I think I saw you had over 300 episodes. Andrew: Yeah. I think, actually I think we're... yes, we do. I've been, like I said, been doing it since July 2013. Yeah, been going at it for awhile. It's been fun. Stephanie: Yeah, that was really cool to look at your backlog and the guests that you've had on. So, your business models' really interesting how you have a capital arm and community, I mean two things that I would say are very hot right now. Everyone is always thinking about of course being investors, I mean at least here in Silicon Valley that's everyone's dream it seems like. And then building up a community is something that we've heard a lot of guests mention on the show, like how to properly build a community. What was your idea behind starting this business and having those different arms of the business? Andrew: They came in stages, so in a nutshell, left the corporate world and got my teeth in eCommerce for starting in 2008 on a couple different eCommerce businesses and built those up. So, I had a sense of this space and nobody was talking about eCommerce unless it was like from a Home Depot or like a Lowe's, like a, you know, Fortune 500 style? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew: And so I started writing about what it's like to grow an eCommerce business for a small team or a single founder and developed a little bit of a following on the blog, started podcasting, and then from there that kind of just naturally led to me meeting all these great people and I thought what if we got a bunch of people in a community together that had some kind of vetting thresholds and just made sure everyone had some level of experience? And that launched the community and built that up over time and then the capital arm is fairly recent, really recent in fact, it's about five or six months old. That just came as a natural extension of seeing all these interesting entrepreneurs that hopefully we'd built some trust and report with, or that people knew about us from the time running the business. And then also just a really great group of investors who also had not just money, but a lot of in the trenches experience and advice to lend, so it kind of came in stages. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really cool. To start with the community aspect, what are the vetting procedures that people have to go through? How do you know who to bring in to keep it a high quality community? Because I think that's biggest problem when you're getting in all these Facebook groups or communities, you're like, "Oh my gosh, just everyone's in here and I'm actually not learning anything." So, what does it look like to get into your community? Andrew: Yeah, you're right. I mean, if I could only do one thing well in a community it would be bring the right people into it. So, our guidelines are a little nuanced but you need to be operating a seven figure business. If you have a very proprietary product that you've made from scratch or that is a little harder to make sometimes we'll take people in kind of the mid to high six figure range. If you're selling just on Amazon usually we require a little bit more than that, so that's on the revenue threshold sides. Andrew: So, we keep it no major SaaS vendors, and then for service providers we're really careful. I'd probably say only 10% of our applicants that we accept are service providers and they need to be recommended by an existing member because you can... An amazing email marketing expert that knows the space, that is respectful of people and isn't going to come in at a hard pitch and is going to build relationships the right way through adding value, is a huge asset. But we want to make sure those are the type of people we have and not people who are just trying to sign somebody up on the first day, so. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really important. How many people are in your community now? Andrew: We have about 1,100 members in the community. Stephanie: Okay. How did you go about building that up? What is your method of bringing new people into the community? How do you get in front of people and even tell them about eCommerceFuel? Andrew: Community building's interesting. You've got this chicken and an egg problem, right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew: And the way that I did it was when I was blogging and podcasting early on about eCommerce, just over that probably 12 month period really focus on not trying to monetize the business or anything, just trying to build authority, get a little bit of a reputation, and connect with people. Over the course of a year, just naturally, organically, met about 100 to 150 really interesting people. And any time I did, I'd just put a little tag on them in gmail and say, "Community seed member." Stephanie: Oh. Andrew: So, a year in a had this list of 150 people and I reached out to them and said, "Here's what I'm doing. I'm starting a community, are you interested?" And then over the course of about 30 to 45 days I dripped in, I added, about four or five people a day. I'd bring them in, I'd introduce them, I'd introduce them to other people, I'd ask them questions, kickstart discussions, and so it gradually grew. I didn't just drop everyone in at once, and it took about like 45 days but we had a bit of a community at that point. And then from there I had over the last year built up some traffic to the website, was able to put up a page that said, "Hey, here's the community. You can join," and that gave us kind of... because you need both things, right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Andrew: Like in community you have to have new people come in because you always have a drop off even in the most healthy. So, from it was able to kind of, with a lot of work, get to self sustaining within probably 18 to 24 months, so. Stephanie: Wow. Yeah, that's great. And it is a paid community? Andrew: It is, yes. It's a paid community, so it's... yeah, it is. It's $99 a month. Stephanie: That also helps... Okay, yeah. I'm sure that also helps with quality and bringing in people who are serious and really want to learn and contribute to get their monies worth. Andrew: Oh, it helps so much. I mean, for a couple reasons why. We have, just like you said, on the vetting side, yeah, it shows that people are actually serious about this. The other nice thing is it gives us the resources to do things like hire a real community manager. We have someone full time that their whole job is just to vet people to make sure that if people have questions that don't get answered they can move them to the right people. It let's us invest in technology, we've probably poured six figures plus into the custom tech for the community, so yeah, it makes it a lot easier. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really cool. When it comes to keeping the community engaged, because to me that's one of the biggest things to make sure people keep renewing their membership and they want to check in everyday and see what's new and see who's talking, how do you go about keeping them engaged? And maybe what have you seen works and what didn't work? Like any tests that you've done where you're like, "We've tried this and this failed," or, "We tried this and this really increased engagement a lot and helped keep it going?" Andrew: I think the best thing you can do, two things, the first thing is to actually have discussion and content that are highly relevant to what people are doing day in and day out. So, again, kind of going back, if you get the right people in the same room that's 80-90% of the battle. From that point, setting up custom notifications is really important. So, some of the custom tech that we've talked about, when people sign up we don't just blast them with every single discussion that pops up, that's crazy, right? They'd just drowned in a fire house because we have like 5,000 comments every months in there. But we do try to figure out like, hey, what are you an expert in and what are interested in learning about? And then when they join we tailor their notifications to try to create the highest level of a signal to noise ratio possible, and so that's another thing. The third thing is just maintaining a really respectful environment, like we have a pretty strict no jerks rule. I probably shouldn't say this, but I get a lot of pleasure out of throwing people who are just downright disrespectful and just, you know, kind of just generally unpleasant out of our community because they're horrible. Stephanie: Yeah, good. Boot them. Andrew: And also non-solicitation. We kind of have a one strike, one warning, and then if you do it again you're out. So, we don't put up with pitches, you know, if people are hard pitching stuff they're out. So, I think those are the big things that help with maintaining an active community where people keep coming back to. Stephanie: Yeah, those are such good points and it's not only applicable to your business but even thinking about any eCommerce business of how to build up... I mean, everyone talks about building these communities but how do you actually make it helpful and personalize it to people in a way that people want to engage on your social media post or they want to engage on your blog or tag themselves wherever they're in your clothing or with your mug or whatever. So, I think these lessons actually can apply across industries as well and not just upon building a community like you're doing. Andrew: Yeah. Community building, it's interesting, it's kind of like a brand. It is a brand. It's insanely hard to get up and running, like the amount of time and energy and love and relational just work that you need to put in, I don't say it in a bad way, but just building relationships takes a tremendous amount of work. It takes a ton of time, just like building a brand. But it's insanely defensible, I mean, if you're willing to put in that, you know, if you have a multi year approach. You can't steal people's friends, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: And that's what happens, whether you're building a community for your brand or kind of a micro niche community like this for eCommerceFuel, is people come in and they stay because they get value and they stick around for a couple months but then they come to an event, they connect with people via PM, and then build genuine friends. I don't know, you'd be hard pressed to tear me away from my good friends and it's really defensible in that department, so. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. I love that. So, you probably get a lot of really good insights into the world of eCommerce and where things are headed just by some of the questions that some of the members in your community are asking each other, and I wanted to know what kind of top questions do you see occurring right now where it's like quite a few people are asking the same type of question or these same things keep popping up? Andrew: Yeah. Let's start with the 500 pound gorilla in the eCommerce space, and that's Amazon. Some of the questions I think people are asking on there is how do I... I'll just go through a handful of them and then maybe we can talk about ones that are most interesting to you. If I'm selling to wholesalers, should I let them sell on Amazon? How do I control my brand identity on Amazon? There's some interesting popping up right now about how... I don't know if you've noticed this, but Amazon Prime used to be for awhile it was free shipping, then it was two day, and it was one day, and now it's like- Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: ... three to five days if you're lucky depending on where you live. Stephanie: Yeah, I did notice that and I was like, "What's happening here? Usually I can get my stuff for my son in like a day and now it's taking a week." Andrew: Yeah. It's kind of crazy, and of course because of just with COVID eCommerce is blowing up, the capacity is limited on the delivery networks. But it's interesting because it kind of levels the playing field at this moment in time for independent brands because the shipping factor is not so much of an issue, and in fact a lot of people are probably are almost in... If somebody gives you something and takes it away it's worse than if they just had never given you anything to begin with, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah I feel way more sad right now than I ever would have before this. Andrew: Exactly, right, because the expectation's there. So, that's creating an interesting opportunity. One of the things that Amazon just recently came out with I think in the last couple days was re-introducing... Way back, I don't know, two, three, four, I don't know how many years ago, multiple years ago, you used to able to ship your products from Amazon's warehouses to customers. You could use them as a 3PL fulfillment center without Amazon branded boxes. They changed that for many years and just this week I think they changed back to saying, "Oh, actually you can use our fulfillment services with your own proprietary boxes," or at least with unbranded boxes. And I think potentially... Who knows why they did it, it was kind of perplexing to a lot of people, but perhaps because they realize that they're losing on the shipping game and other merchants maybe are starting to migrate other places and if independent merchants are able to deliver the same shipping without Amazon maybe more then we'll move off. And one thing that we've done, we've done a State of the Merchant Report for the last three years, and our one for this year should be hopefully coming out fairly soon. But a trend that is really noticeable is the number of people that are going to Amazon is really... it's not reversing but it's plateauing very significantly. Andrew: And even just chatting with merchants and seeing a lot of case studies, people are taking a lot harder look at is it worth going on Amazon for how much channel risk you take on, how much loss of control of the consumer that you give up, you don't have addresses, all these things. They're just taking a lot harder look at is this good for my business long term? Stephanie: Yeah. So, do you think 2020 will show that a lot of people are pulling back from Amazon? Andrew: That is a good question. I think not a lot of people, but I do think when we released the report I made this prediction in the report too, so very likely could just fall on my face in the mud here, but I think the percentage of people who sell on Amazon, it was about 55% of all stores that we surveyed last time, I think that will decrease a small amount. I don't think we're going to see a precipitous drop but I think it goes from 55% to maybe 54 or f... I think we start to see that inflection point. Stephanie: Yeah, that's really interesting. The one thing I also read in your 2019 report was about the different marketing channels that people were using and I saw that Amazon ads had the highest ROI but not many people are using it, so I'm wondering what are your thoughts around that aspect of using it as a marketing tool? Andrew: Yeah. No, it's... Wow, good prep work. If you're on Amazon, Amazon ads you have to have a... people reported them being the most effective sales channel that they use. So, if you're on the platform they work really well, so definitely should be doing that if you're on the platform. I think it's just more of a... it's not a question so much of should we use Amazon ads if you're on the platform, you absolutely should. It's more of a question of do we want to be on Amazon in the first place? But, yeah, for people selling on Amazon they work really well. Stephanie: Yeah, okay. But then the other interesting thing I saw was that the average order value was way lower for... because if it's maybe a direct to consumer site or anywhere else people can maybe stack on additional things from your brand, where I think I saw on Amazon the average order value was much lower which makes me think you're not getting that, hey, you should maybe also try this from my brand and this from my brand as well and kind of increase the cart value. Andrew: I think that could definitely be part of it. I think a big part of it too is that if you have people on Prime there's no free shipping threshold, right? Have you ever ordered a... what's a good example here? Like a $3 koozie and it shows up and you're like, "How did they pay for the shipping for this? They lost money on this." Or even better, you order a $7 paperweight set that weight like 10 pounds and they ship it. There's no threshold so it's easy to impulse buy small stuff on Amazon. Stephanie: Yeah. Good point. Andrew: Whereas if you're buying from an independent merchant not always, but more often than not you're going to have some kind of free shipping threshold. So, either you're intentionally going to seek it out or you're buying multiple things so I think that probably also has a big part in why those order values are different. Stephanie: That's a good point. That's a good reason to look further into data and not just look really quickly like I did through the report. So, what other trends are you thinking are happening either right now, because a lot's been changing because of COVID and things are kind of just all over the place where some people are struggling, some people aren't. It seems like the market is changing quickly. What other trends or things happening do you see that people are surfacing in your community, or are you building into your next report coming out? Andrew: Yeah. So, eCommerce obviously no surprise here is just exploding, and we did a survey, this was in March when the world was falling apart and nobody knew what was happening and it was much more uncertainty than there even was now, and you saw early on in that you kind of saw a very big dip for the first probably week when COVID really started spiking and being taken seriously. And then you saw kind of half and half, half the businesses were doing okay or growing and half were failing, now I'd say you definitely have some businesses that are really struggling. If you're in the event space, if you sell items in the event space, any of the kind of in person things are having a hard time, but by large I'd say most of our stores are doing, you know, most of the industries are doing really well so that's fantastic. One thing that's tough, it's a downside, and anybody who's selling is probably going to be aware of is just the sales tax issue in the Unites States is just an absolute disaster, just on making- Stephanie: Tell me a bit about that because whether- Andrew: It's just a dumpster fire. Stephanie: I don't know if I... well, I actually probably have avoided anytime I see tax I'm like, "Oh, no thank you." So, I would love for you to dive in a bit and tell me why is the sales tax a disaster because [crosstalk 00:18:28]. Andrew: Yeah, so I'll try to be somewhat brief because you could probably talk about this for quite awhile, up until two or three years ago pretty much the case was if you... The only places you had to collect sales tax for was if you had Nexus in a state. So, if you had... I run a business out of Montana and Arizona, so Montana doesn't collect sales tax and so traditionally we've only had to collect sales tax in Arizona. There's a big Supreme Court case that came across in 2017 or 18. It was Wayfair versus South Dakota and pretty much the shakeout from that was that the Supreme Court said that states can require sellers that are outside of their state, they have no physical presence in their state, if they sell to a customer within their state they can collect sales tax on them if they reach a certain threshold. If they sell either a certain dollar volume in that state or if they have a minimum number transactions for that state. And it could be as low as 200 transactions and $50-100,000. So, the problem that causes is that now you have companies who create this economic Nexus and now all of a sudden they have to be responsible for collecting and submitting sales tax not just to 50 states but to potentially sometimes all these different municipalities and cites, and just creates a disaster of a compliance thing. Andrew: So, you've got companies that have sprung up to try to deal with that, and one top of that, if you sell on Amazon, technically if you have inventory... Normally, you send your inventory into Amazon and they a lot of times will split it up in three or four warehouses so it can be delivered quickly. Well, technically now if you have those inventory in those four states you have Nexus in those states and you have to also collect sales tax. So, it's just on the Amazon front, on the independent front, it's just created... We don't have any central governance for this. What I think would be best is if the federal government kind of took it over and said, "Hey, we'll create a national sales and redistribute." But at the moment you either have to deal with an insane amount of complexity, especially as you get larger, or you have to run the risks of being out of compliance and facing huge fines. It's a really rough place to be. Stephanie: Wow. How are you seeing eCommerce companies tackle this? That is not something that I've even thought about honestly, and it kind of scares me to ever start an eCommerce store now. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot of different ways. Sometimes there's places... I have a company called The Tax Valet that helps out, they do a really good job. Kind of a personal hands on approach to doing this. Some merchants will use SaaS software like Taxify or TaxJar to be able to do that kind of stuff, Avalara as well. And some people just roll the dice and say, "Hey, this is a nightmare I'm not going to try to deal with this," so there's a lot of different... it depends on your risk tolerance, it depends how big you are, but people are taking a lot of different approaches to it. But to do it right it's really unfortunate. Stephanie: You'll have to hire someone. Andrew: Yeah, hire someone or really go deep on the SaaS side of things and dive in. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds messy. Well, earlier you were talking about the howling out of eCommerce and I wanted you to talk a bit about that because we're talking still about the trends and what it's going to look like in the future, and I thought you had an interesting take on that so I'd love for you to go over that if you could. Andrew: Sure. And again, of course totally could be wrong here, but when I look forward into the future I feel like Amazon's going to be hallowed out in the sense that, or excuse me, eCommerce is going to be hollowed out in the sense that you have... On one side, you have brands on Amazon that sell either one or two things, they're either well known national brands, like the... well, I don't think Nike sells on them anymore so that's a bad example, but the... Why am I blanking on big national brands here? Tide for example could sell on there or Rubbermaid or Adidas, brands people... household names. They sell on there because it's just they know that brand, they go find it, and they want to buy it. You have people who are selling really small things, like we're talking about koozies or you needs stapler, or maybe you need a little backyard pool for the fact that your cousins are coming over and you really don't care if it breaks in three weeks and so you buy that. But then for anything in the middle that's like kind of not a huge national brand but also something that you want to have that's quality, I think a lot of those companies are going to start... people are going to buy much more from the companies themself, direct to consumer. Andrew: Because they can merchandise them better, the shopping and check out experiences are getting easier. I think brands are increasingly not going to sell on Amazon because there's, in addition to all the things we talked about, you also have huge IP issues and people ripping you off. So, I think that's going to be the hallowing out of eCommerce when Amazon's going to be a big donut and in the middle a lot of people are going to be selling directly on their own sites just because it makes more sense for all the reasons I mentioned, so. Stephanie: Yeah, that's interesting. We've also talked a bit about the conscious consumer that's kind of rising out of all this and how people are starting to care about what is the source of this product, is it actually sustainable? Is it a quality product? And less about can I have more and more focused on quality and sustainability. Have you heard that trend as well in your community? Andrew: Yeah, I would say I think that's something that's been kind of gradually increasing over the last five to 10 years. I think more than anything how it ties into our conversation is that Amazon over the last couple of years, and they've been fighting it and they've done some, to their credit, they've done some things to combat it, but they still have a... If you buy something on Amazon most people are not going to think it's... there's a little bit of a thought that it's probably not high quality, a little bit of a stigma for buying stuff on Amazon especially if it's not a name brand. Part of that- Stephanie: Even the name brands people wonder if it's it... is this a legit name brand, I've seen that a lot in comment and reviews. Andrew: Oh, totally. Partially because of review manipulation, partially because of counterfeiting, and partially because there's just a lot of... I mean, there's everything on Amazon so how do you filter through it, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: So, yeah, I think that's part of going back to that [inaudible] about the hallowing out of eCommerce unless it's a brand you absolutely have faith in or it's something that you don't care about the quality. Would you rather buy one of those borderline things from Amazon and roll the dice with an unproven brand, roll the dice with one of those mid-tier brands being counterfeited? Or, especially if you can get it just as quickly either because Amazon is shipping stuff really slowly or because increasingly independent merchants can deliver it more quickly with some of these other options via straight from the horse or straight from the source rather. So, yeah, I think for me that's how the quality issue ties in I think to the larger discussion. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you think that is why the drop shipping model has kind of decreased? I saw on your report that that is not as big of a thing as it used it, and I just remember... maybe even like last year, over the last couple years that was a huge thing. Everyone just said, "Start a eCommerce company and just drop ship things and let other people take care of it for you." What are you seeing with the drop shipping trend? Andrew: Yeah. So, when we talk about drop shipping I think it's important to differentiate two different things that come into people's minds. One is drop shipping, you can build a great high quality business based around drop shipping. A couple of businesses I started were drop shipping based businesses, one of them's still, under a great new owner, is still doing well. Really at the end of the day it's less about the product quality and more about how it's delivered. So, like Home Depot for example, they drop ship a ton of their stuff, some of their even big name brands because they're can't afford to hold everything in stock and that can potentially work out reasonably well. I think where it got a really bad reputation with all AliExpress side of things and so where- Stephanie: Yes, that's the stuff I read. Andrew: Yeah, right. And that's a whole different ballgame, and for people who, you know, if you're not familiar with that the 30 second version is you go onto AliExpress which lets you pretty much ship pretty much ship products directly from the factory in China to consumers in the US very cheaply through some kind of loopholes in the postal service. You can set up a store really quickly but by and large the products are garbage. They're just crappy, so that I think is where... There was a big rise in that, people ran that for a while, tried to run with that, but the problems were you couldn't build a brand around it because the products were awful, and because it took weeks to get your product to your customer, and probably because most likely if you're launching one of those businesses you know nothing about the product, so. Stephanie: Yeah. Never seen it, you don't even know if it'll make it or not. Andrew: Yeah. But even on the other side I'd say, that all aside, even if you're selling really good quality products, Amazon in the last five years has completely solved distribution. When I started for awhile I sold trolley motors, I sold CB radios, and back in those days you really could get a business up and running purely by sourcing a relationship with a wholesaler, doing a decent amount of marketing, having reasonable customer service and you were in business. But like today if you know what you want to buy, you know the brand, and you want it at a fair price, at a reasonable quickly you're probably going to go to Amazon for something you discreetly know that you want. So, Amazon's solved, at least before COVID and probably still I'd say a large degree, they solved distribution. So, how do you add value? You got to add value through some other way, usually that's through a lot of education or a really curated product line if you're going to sell existing products and those can be harder to get right. So, I don't think drop shipping is completely dead but I think it's gotten significantly harder versus even just two or three years ago. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. So, one question I always try to ask on here is about metrics and data, and with access to your community I want to know what kind of metrics do people talk about as their success metrics or what do you hear people debating about when it comes to metrics behind if a business is doing well or not? Andrew: Yeah, I think the one everyone loves to talk about is revenue, right? But I think that's probably a pretty horrible metric to use. It's easy, and we're totally guilty of it, that's one of our thresholds for even membership. So, guilty as charged, I'm going to slay myself along with everyone that I slay here. We use it because it's easy, we use it because it's socially acceptable. It's way easier to say, "I do three million in revenue versus I made $600,000 last year. It's also way easier to say, "I did three million revenue," than, "Oh, I only made $20,000 last year and that was I didn't pay myself anything," right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: But metrics that I think are most important, one that... To be totally frank, in the community we don't talk a ton about... a lot of our conversations really don't revolve around what metrics should you track. Bottom line is a big one, of course. Conversion rate's a big one, average order size is a big one. Repeat purchase rate is a big one. And I'd say we don't have tons of conversations about them, but I think probably the most important ones to think about today are repeat purchase rates because advertising is doing nothing but getting more expensive. It's getting harder and harder to get in front of people without paying the big tech gatekeepers. So, the more likely a customer is to come back to you and needing that product the more likely you can actually build a viable long term business, that's a big one. I think profitability per visitor is a huge metric. It's harder to calculate but if I was going to run my business on one metric it would be profit per visitor to my website. And the reason I say that is because it encapsulates a lot of things, conversion rate, traffic, all these different things. Andrew: But it really makes you focus on pricing. If I would have to identify the one thing that I have done across multiple businesses in my life that has had the biggest impact and taken the least work, hands down it would be pricing. And so few people play with it. Some people can't, a lot of people can. And it's terrifying to change prices because we all fear that when you change the prices that your business is going to disappear, but that rarely happens especially if you do it in a really smart way. And what you should be maximizing is your profitability per visitor, at least for new customers at a minimum. So, yeah, those are some of my thoughts on metrics, and again we don't... total frank, we don't talk a ton about... those aren't the hot topics but I think those are some of the things to really think about. Stephanie: Yeah. So, now you've opened up, what are some of the hot topics? What are some of the heated debates that are going on behind the wall? Andrew: That's a good question. You know what, let me pull it up. Stephanie: Yeah, open it up. Let's see. Andrew: I'm going to pull it up here. Stephanie: Sounds good. Andrew: So, we have a cool little feature. Let's just surface all the top discussions from the last year. So, I can't... for confidentiality I got to be sensitive, but here's some of our top stories from the last let's say month. The story about how someone sold their brand, their business that they built over the years and just the emotional rollercoaster and what they learned, and how they were looking to hire multiple... How to use influencers on YouTube to build an eight figure business. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good one. Stephanie: Yeah, the influencer one is interesting to me because it kind of brings about the question of the social shopping experience and how the US is so based... right now, I mean, a lot of people are looking towards influencers. Whereas other markets, like China, are not really as much about that. It's more about the social shopping experience. What were your thoughts, or what was the debate when it came to the YouTube influencers and how they utilize that, and do you think that's a longterm trend? Andrew: Yeah. I think one of the big themes I've seen is that the really big influencers a lot of times are spendy and hard to track, but you could potentially get a better ROI if you focus on helping maybe working with smaller influencers either for less money or just for product. Because it's, I don't know, I don't know about you but when I'm on Instagram and I see someone using a product, and especially if they even mention it in any little way I'm immediately a little suspicious. I'm like, "Is this person really like this product or are they just getting it comped and they're having to fulfill their end of the agreement that they signed up for?" Stephanie: Yeah, especially the more popular they are, like as it goes up to the really popular famous people then I'm like, okay, do you actually use that whitening strip? How much are you getting paid for that? Andrew: Yeah, and so I don't think influencer market is going away. I mean, we've had famous people endorsing things for decades, maybe 100+ years, especially in the United States, but I do think, yeah, I just think you can also waste a lot of money on it if you're not doing it carefully. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. So, on your podcast I'm thinking, this is like self serveant, so I'll go with it, but what are some of the best questions that you've asked your guests before where you continued to get the best answers or the best stories? Andrew: Oh, good question. One of my... A couple ones, I would say what's the biggest mistake, or what's... excuse me, what's the last thing you apologized for I think is an interesting one. Stephanie: That's a good one. Andrew: I think another one is what's your number? Like, what's your number to be happy, like if you had X in the bank and what's your number where you'd be happy without having anymore? It's interesting to get a sense. You get numbers from all over the place from a million to 100 million, sometimes bigger, so. Stephanie: Oh, gosh. Andrew: Yeah. A lot of the questions are very specific to the individual person and their story, but for two general ones I'd say I like those ones and get some really interesting ones those times. Stephanie: Yeah, that would be really interesting. A good kind of peak into who that person is or how they think too. I like that. Andrew: Yeah. Stephanie: So, I know we haven't gotten to talk about the capital arm of your business yet and I wanted to kind of go into what that was like starting it up and what kind of issues you were encountering when starting a capital arm? What does that look like and I want a little behind scenes for the new side of your business. Andrew: Sure. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, and I'll say in total transparency, like I said, very early into this. We're only about four or five months into this, so still pretty new. But you asked, and specifically were you hoping to know kind of some of the hard parts about starting that? Stephanie: Yeah, like what was the... not the thought process, because that seems pretty obvious like you have this great community and you maybe see some of the challenges that are going on, but what was it like starting a investment arm and what kind of challenges have you run into so far in the first four months? Andrew: Yeah. So, what it was like, it was terrifying. And I think- Stephanie: Sounds like it. Andrew: Yeah, traditionally you kind of have these two approaches where either you go out and raise a bunch of money and then you get all these commitments and you close on it and then you have to go out and put this money to work. It's kind of your life for the next often 10 years, and it's a traditional fund route. The other route is what's called syndicate where you pretty much do deals on a deal by deal basis, which gives you a lot more flexibility but the problem is every time you get a deal you got to go pass the hat and call a million and half the people are out, you know, of those half a quarter of them decide at the last minute that... like the funding process is a nightmare on that side. So, putting it together I kind of did something of a hybrid of those two where we have a group of about 20 investors that are tentatively in. I know them, they trust me, I trust them, and there's kind of a... they signed an informal thing that says, "Hey, I'm in for the next three years for this amount of money." So, hopefully it gives us the flexibility of not have to go out and deploy money just to deploy money, but we can also can be a little flexible, and we can also have the commitment from some people to go forward. Andrew: So, that's totally on the technical fund side, probably super boring to most people. But in terms of some of the challenges, I think that the challenging thing is just the number of deals you have to look at to try to find a good deal. I mean, I looked at over 100 deals so far at some level of depth and it's just finding, A, just good companies, B, where it's a good fit for both parties, and C, where you can see it working out well for everyone. It's really hard to find good deals, especially as a minority partner that comes in to invest, especially on the eCommerce side because our approach and what we're trying to do is buy, invest, in the long run with companies to build profitable businesses, like we're not trying to flip them. And I think in tech investing you can get away with a lot of sloppiness because you're kind of swinging for the fences. So, if you have a bunch that don't work out it's a big deal, most of them don't work out. Stephanie: They don't. Andrew: But with eCommerce, our model... we're looking to do singles and doubles and it's just hard to find really good businesses that you feel are going to be around for three to five years. So, the hardest part for us has just been finding great businesses that we feel check all our boxes, so. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. Is there a common theme behind what these businesses are needing capital for? Andrew: Yeah, I would say... So, financing for eCommerce businesses is tricky. There are some options out there, there's things like Shopify Capital, there's ClearBank, there's PayPal Capital, Amazon Lending, all these things, but they're expensive. They also take a... often times you don't pay them back on a fixed rate, you pay them back on a percentage of revenue which can be good and bad. So, inventory financing is a big one but I'd say the people that we talk to it was probably half and half. Half of them want money for inventory financing to grow the business and half of them just really would love to have someone who has spent $15 million on Facebook ads in their career to be able to help them and give them some high level guidance on what to do and some thoughts there, or someone who's done a lot of importing to be able to tap into that knowledge based in that network, so. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. When were thinking about fundraising back in the day I was like, "I actually don't really care about people's money as much as are they going to help me?" Like, I really don't want the most famous investor because I highly doubt they will spend any time with me. I want the person who's ready to get their hands dirty and help me with the nitty gritty stuff that I'm looking for help with. Andrew: Oh, totally. Yeah, there has never been... There's so much money sloshing around right now, right? And so there's a lot of places that get money, which is good if you're raising money, but it's greed. I think the real value ad is the experience side and the money is just kind of a nice perk that comes along with it often. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. So, you've been looking at a lot of businesses and you have a lot of businesses in your community, what is one thing that you wish online sellers would either start or stop doing? Andrew: Start or stop doing... Stephanie: I like to throw out the hard balls. Andrew: Yeah, no this is good. I would say I wish people would start having more fun with the copy in their business. So, one thing I always... and I didn't, I can't claim- Stephanie: That's a good one. Andrew: I can't claim credit for this one, but I've always liked to try to make the copy and confirmation emails and things like that fun and interesting and a little bit different as opposed to like, "Thank you for your order. Your order is 49732. We appreciate your business." Such a great... Transactional receipts are one of the most opened emails across all emails, shipping ones absolutely, and if you're trying to build a brand there's no better point to be able to, you know, have some fun and be able to be different and differentiate yourself, right? So, I think that's a big one. You can extend that to the product packaging, your website, all that stuff. But I would say take a little more risks and have a little bit more fun. I would check out a site called mancrates.com, have you heard of them? Stephanie: No, tell me a bit about them. Andrew: They're so good. They're so good. They sell fun gifts for men, so for example, instead of ordering your dad a tie you can order him a 16 inch by 16 inch wooden crate of beef jerky and steak rub that he has to open with a crow bar when it shows up to his house, Like stuff like this that's different. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Andrew: And the copy is freaking just hilarious. So, check them out if- Stephanie: Oh, that's good. I'll have to check that out. Andrew: Yeah, they're really good. It's just you're buying an experience for the recipient and people pay up for it, so. Stephanie: Yeah, now more than ever with people not going out as much, not going in stores and stuff, you do have to figure out how to differentiate yourself. And I think that's a good point that, I mean, right now I'm even thinking I bought something and I'm getting the actual logistics email of DHL or whatever will be shipped at this time, and it's all this other text that I don't care about, so it's like, "Okay, I actually don't care about this email that's coming through." And if they would've made it unique and fun and exciting... like I don't even know what this is that I bought, that's how bad it is. There's no branding or anything, it's just coming apparently. Andrew: Yeah, if they were like, "The DHL guy had a wreck but your package was so important that he grabbed it from the fiery box and he crawled with one arm bleeding out and he handed it to the last person he saw and said, 'Deliver this, please. Deliver it to Stephanie,' and then he died." Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Andrew: That might be intense and maybe it doesn't work for all brands, but it sure as heck gets your attention and you're like, "Whoa, this is interesting." Stephanie: You need to write for our brand. I'm going to bring you on our team, Andrew, just for your copy. I need that. Oh man, that's good. All right. So, I want to do a higher level eCommerce question because I just think you're, one, you're willing to take a risk and you're willing to predict the future which I like. I appreciate that. So, I want to hear either what disruption is coming to eCommerce that's not already here, because a lot of people have said, "Oh, COVID's the biggest disruption." That answer's already been taken, so either the biggest disruption or you can tell me what the future of online commerce looks like in five years. Andrew: Biggest disruption coming, I'll try to tackle both of them. Biggest disruption is I think that... man, it's just coming from the guy. You talk about be willing to predict the future, I made a bet with somebody when Amazon was $200 a share that Alibaba was gonna out pace it. And now that Amazon is $3,000 a share, it was a humbling experience and it cost me a very experience steak dinner. That being said, here's my prediction... Stephanie: That's all right. I want your prediction still. Andrew: I would say the biggest disrupter, oh man... I'm going to throw a couple things out there, I think text is going to be a big one, SMS. But that's not like a big disrupter as much as just a new marketing channel that us marketers can leverage for awhile until we completely destroy texting for everybody which will probably take three or four years. Stephanie: That's a good one though. What are thinking around using that as new marketing channel? Andrew: Oh, I just think, I mean, if you look at the... I think email is just getting harder and harder unless you really want to hear somebody's email. So, I just signed up for the service HEY, are you familiar with that from Basecamp? Stephanie: I've heard about it and I seen a bunch of drama on Twitter about it, so. Andrew: Yeah. There has been... probably between them and the App store and all that kind of stuff? Stephanie: Yes, yes. Andrew: Yeah. So, one of the reasons I signed up for them is because they have this thing where you can screen your emails now, and the first time you get an email from a new sender you can say, "Hey, I want this person to pop in my inbox, or no, Johnny, from Michigan I don't care about your boat covers. Don't ever talk to me again. It's unsolicited." So, that kind of thing, I think email is going to be... there's going to be more and more tools and services that let you curate your email and really slice down who gets to hear from you and so email is going to get harder and harder. But if you look a just text message delivery versus email it's an order of magnitude higher engagement, readability, click through, et cetera, and I think that marketers are already, I mean, they're already starting to do that. People that I know that are on the leading edge have five, I haven't six figures, but definitely seen some good mid tier five figure SMS lists and they just do really well. So, the problem is you got to be really careful because when people text me about things that I'm not interested in... like texting for me is very personal. I text my wife, my family, my good friends. Andrew: I don't text with Bobby's Boat Shop in Michigan, and if he sends me a promotion via text I'm going to be pissed off. So, you got to be really careful about how you use that but I think that will be a big marketing channel going for, so. Not really sure if that's really a disrupter and it's already kind of here in some regards but I'll throw that one out there. Stephanie: Yeah, I like that. I think that's a good one though to think about how to be careful when you start using these new channels, because completely agree. I've had I think someone just texted me this morning who's like, "I'm the education blah, blah, blah person of your district." I'm like, "What are you texting me right now? Don't." Andrew: Oh, totally. You can really... and I think there's some pretty stiff penalties for not being careful about that in terms of if you just spam people via text, which is good. But yeah, nothing's worse than getting a text from someone you really don't want to hear about, so. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. All right. So, next we have a lightning round, if you're ready, Andrew. It's where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Andrew: Perfect. For each question? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: Awesome. Is there like a booing sound if I go over so I stop talking? Stephanie: No, it'll just be me, "Boo! Boo!" in the background. Andrew: Do it, do it. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Andrew: I don't really... Oh, actually I do have... what is it? They're in Arizona, there's a place called Biosphere 2 where they locked all these people into this kind of self contained environment as a training mission to go to Mars, and they isolated them from earth atmospherically for two years, and surprise surprise it was a huge trauma fest. Can't remember the name of the movie but that's what I'm watching next on Netflix. Stephanie: Oh my gosh, that sounds insane. Andrew: Spaceship Earth is the name of the documentary. Stephanie: Spaceship Earth, okay. I will have to check that out. Very interested in that, and I also pontificate about Mars sometimes on our other show Mission Daily, so it's perfect for me. Andrew: Oh, perfect. Watch it tonight. Stephanie: All right. Where are you going next for your travel destination when you can travel? Andrew: Probably down Tucson, Arizona where... I'm up in Montana right now, but probably Tucson, Arizona which is where we live, so. Stephanie: Cool. Andrew: That's kind of a cop out. I need a better one. Stephanie: Wait, you live in Montana and you live in Tucson? Andrew: We're up here, we spend some time in the summertime up in Montana just to see family, friends, like that. Stephanie: Oh, cool. Andrew: Yeah, so we're heading back there soon. Don't have any plans at the moment but the next big trip I would like to take would be to Mongolia. Stephanie: Oh, that would be very interesting. Do you have an Instagram? I'll have to follow along when you go there. Andrew: @capalisthippie, so. Stephanie: Okay, I'll follow you. If you were to create a Netflix original, what would it be about? Andrew: Oh, this is easy. It would be... I'm fascinated with the question of where is the balance between running a business and being ambitious and chasing entrepreneurial success and having a great life and traveling and seeing your family and nurturing other side of yourself, and I feel like so few people get that right. So, my documentary would be pick 12 entrepreneurs from varying levels of that spectrum, live with them and follow them for two months each and try to come to some conclusions about if you were going to try to design your life to be able to maximize both of those, where's the line? Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good one. I need help with that right now. Andrew: I think a lot of us do. Stephanie: Yeah. What podcast guest are you trying to get on that you just can't get, like they're just not responding and you really want them? Andrew: Oh, that's a good one. I think awhile we were trying to get Tim Ferriss on the show, which is super cliché. It didn't work out. Stephanie: Ouch. Andrew: Yeah, I know. I'm still upset about that, Tim. What is the favorite piece of tech that makes you more efficient? Andrew: Good question. I would say text expander is a big one so you can do saved replies and bump those out. Yeah, I'd say that's probably one of my favorite. Asana is another great one. I love Asana for we manage all our SOP's and long term projects there, so I'd say those two. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. I like them. All right, the last one, what new eCommerce tool are you hearing about that a lot of people in your community or outside of it are having success with right now? Andrew: I would say there's a tool called Bonjoro, and it's not necessarily just for eCommerce, but it allows you to send custom welcome videos to people really easily. If you think about sending a video to a customer it's probably not the filming that's the hard part, it's probably like the okay, I have to film it and then I have to send it, and then I have to edit and export, and it just lets you cue up these emails, send videos to people for kind of nicer customer service touch. So, yeah we use that for onboarding for a lot of our members and I've heard people have good luck with that, so. Stephanie: That's cool. Well, Andrew, this has been such a fun interview. Where can people learn more about you and eCommerceFuel? Andrew: Yeah, if you like podcasts, which at the end of listening to me talk for 45 minutes you prob are- Stephanie: Do you want more? Andrew: ... a glutton for punishment, yeah. I would love to have you as a podcast listener on the eCommerceFuel podcast, so you can get that anywhere you get podcasts, iTunes or elsewhere. But yeah the big home is just eCommerceFuel.com, so you can learn about the community there if you're a store owner and want to get plugged in or if you have an interesting business that are looking for either money or probably more importantly some expertise from a group of really experienced eCommerce investors. Yeah, I would love to have a discussion with you. So, eCommerceFuel.com is the best place for all that stuff. Stephanie: Well, it's been a blast, Andrew. Thanks so much and we will see you next time. Andrew: Yeah, this has been fun. Thanks for having me on.

What is the right percent profit margin you should target for your products? How do you get the most out of your Facebook ad buys? How much should you really pay attention to conversion rate? These are just a few of the questions that every small business and Ecommerce shop wants the answers to. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we picked the brain of Andrew Faris, the CEO of 4x400, a company that has helped grow numerous Ecommerce companies from less than 500,000 into the tens of millions. Today, Andrew spills some of his advertising secrets, including how to make Facebook your core driver for customer acquisition. Here’s a mini spoiler: human bias is leading you astray, but there is a simple way to correct course. Find out that, and more, on this episode! Main Takeaways: Conversion rate is so context-specific that it's not that helpful of a metric. Instead, analyze conversion rate relative to average order value and relative to the traffic sources the customer came from. Before you invest in anything else, you need to drive traffic to the top of the funnel. Currently, Facebook ads are the core driver of customer acquisition for online shopping. Andrew suggests that most Ecommerce brands should invest in the platform and then trust the algorithm to put you in front of the right audiences. You have to take big swings with your experiments. Don’t get hung up on micro-details like the color of your buttons or rewriting your copy. Instead, find big ways to make changes and then see how the outcomes stack up. Because we are all riddled with our own biases, we often cannot predict accurate models of the future on our own. Instead, use data as your guide as you peer into the future. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. This is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have the CEO of 4x400, Andrew Faris. Andrew, thanks for taking the time. Andrew: Stephanie, I am very glad to be able to do this. I have never been accused of not liking to talk about Ecommerce in particular, but just in general. So this is fun. Stephanie: Well, you're my perfect guest then. I was creeping as one does on your LinkedIn. I saw an interesting thing that you have a background in religion and theology. I was wondering how you transitioned into the world of business from that background. Andrew: Yeah. I can always tell when somebody has looked at my LinkedIn or not because that's maybe the only place where that's found anymore. Stephanie: You're welcome. Andrew: Yeah, yeah. No, I went to school for biblical studies, and then got a master's degree in New Testament. So that was my whole pathway, was to go into that and actually was a pastor for a while. Did that, and then about ... gosh, how long ago? Five and a half years ago stepped out of that not because anything in my faith changed per se, but just because I was just rethinking a bunch of stuff in my life and reworking a bunch of stuff in my life. So it's just total life change in all kinds of crazy ways. I didn't have a clue what I was going to do actually. Andrew: That educational pathway doesn't have a direct connection to almost anything that's not work in a church or academic setting or something like that in theology. So, I really loved that education a lot, but I was figuring it out. So I called a friend of mine named Taylor Holiday, who ... and I was talking to him about if there's any available work in his world of work. Just basically as an in between thing while I figured it out. I just thought I'll just go do something for a couple months to figure out what I want to do. He said, sure, and brought me to a company called QALO, Q-A-L-O. If you've seen the silicon wedding rings that are for- Stephanie: Oh, yeah. Andrew: .. on the internet a lot, QALO was the first big company of those. QALO went zero to 20 million in a year and a half and was not funded. So, I was bootstrapped. I went there and it was just growing super, super fast. Also, being not funded and being a bunch of people like that, it just meant that they just were, in those worlds probably some of your listeners probably know this story a little bit, which is like, you just find people who can do stuff in that setting. I literally started in the warehouse. At one point, I sat down with Taylor, who's now one of my partners. Taylor was running marketing for QALO at the time. His brother was one of the founders. Taylor said, "Hey, you've got a mind for numbers," which he knew because we were in a Fantasy Baseball League together and knew that I was a big baseball stat nerd. Andrew: May not be interesting to many of your listeners I'm sure, but I have a lot to say about the interplay of thinking about sports through statistical lens and thinking about Ecommerce. Anyway, so that was the origin. We had been in this fantasy baseball for a while, "I know you have a mind for numbers, why don't you learn Facebook ads and Google ads and learn digital marketing?" I said, sure, but still I was not really sure what I wanted to do in the longer term. But I was like, "All right, that sounds fun." So, did that and loved it. Andrew: I mean, I was so totally unaware of what was happening, but I still remember the first conversation I had with Taylor in a bank where he told me what I'd be doing. He's explaining to me how Facebook ads, Google ads worked and said, "Is it okay? Well, here's the deal. You get customers into the funnel with your ads and then you drive ..." and I stopped him in the middle of that sentence and said, "What's the funnel?" That was where my digital marketing knowledge was at. From there, that ended up being the pathway to the digital marketing and Ecommerce career growth. So I was at QALO for a while, went to CTC, the agency that owns our company, owns the majority of it and became the head of strategy there. And then now I run 4x400. Andrew: Yeah, it was a crazy set of circumstances with Taylor. We actually went to junior high together, but had not reconnected because of that. We reconnected outside of that. So, just weird circumstances. Stephanie: That's interesting. Andrew: This gets into my life philosophy a little bit. I'm a believer in divine providence and think there was some of that happening around. Stephanie: For sure. Yeah, that's awesome. Always good to be in business with someone who's willing to bet on you because you have that beginner's mindset and it's probably why you're doing so well. But I'd love for you to detail a little bit about the structure of CTC and 4x400 in the holding company structure because we haven't had anyone on the show quite like this. So, any details around what 4x400 is and how it's connected to CTC would be great. Andrew: Yeah, sure. Common Thread Collective, it grew out of ... Taylor was building the agency alongside the growth of QALO. Started really focusing on Facebook ads. CTC does a lot more in that now, but CTC is now a full service digital sales agency. We said digital sales sell digital marketing because what we're doing is selling things on the internet, it's consumer goods, really focusing on Ecommerce entrepreneurs. The mission of CTC is to help entrepreneurs achieve their dreams. So that's really what we're about. We're specifically really good taking people in somewhere in the journey from zero to 30 million. Andrew: I was a strategist there and then became the head of strategy there. CTC continues to grow and do well. Taylor Holiday, as I mentioned is the managing partner of CTC. Andrew: In the midst of that, we also were like ... I mean, we came from this background of starting QALO. Taylor also was early on with another one of our partners named Josh Rodarmel who founded Power Balance. If you don't know Power Balance, Power Balance was the really popular silicon bracelets that were worn by athletes for a long time, still are worn by some. Andrew: That company was another super crazy fast growth company. I think they were zero to 50 in a year and a half. Yeah, I think that was the number. But anyway, I did on the brand side selling consumer goods in those worlds. We're like, why don't we launch our own brands as well? So, that's how 4x400 started. Eventually I went over to that side of the business. We started with building our own brand from scratch. It totally saw giant failure called [inaudible] company, just a huge waste of money. It doesn't exist anymore. It was sports themed baby goods and it just ... there are a lot of reasons that didn't work Stephanie: Wait, sports themed baby goods, so- Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Stephanie: ... like onesies. Andrew: Yeah. Like onesies that look like football uniforms. They're adorable. I don't know why nobody bought them. Stephanie: Okay, that's super cute. I'll buy one from you. Andrew: Yeah. I think that you'd have to go find a flea market in Northern California somewhere. I had to go get it every day. Stephanie: I will find one, I actually need to for my twin. So, it'll be a long journey, but I'm going to do it. Andrew: Okay. You're in Northern California, right? Stephanie: Yeah. Andrew: Yeah, I think that's who we sold to, so [inaudible] don't worry. We did that, and then realized actually most of our skill at this point ... most last couple years that we have really been spent after we'd gotten out of the brand side so much growing brands, not so much building brands. So we thought, why don't we just do that? Now our model is, at 4x400, we work with entrepreneurs who are in early stages and feel a little stalled out. We provide them with a team around them that can help them grow it. 4x400 mission is also to help entrepreneurs achieve their dreams. We just do it in a different way than CTC. Andrew: CTC does that the traditional client relationship 4x400, takes the majority share of the brand. And then our goal is to make it so that by bringing us on as a partner and all of the expertise and resources we have around finance operations, marketing, growth customer service, even just really thinking through the whole system of what it means to be a great Ecommerce brand, we can help brands grow. We just closed actually our fifth brand that is currently in our portfolio. We're hoping to close another one soon. Who knows by the time it comes out, if that will happen? We're trying to work with brands who are doing less than half a million in revenue and saying like "We can try to grow you from there." CTC is the majority owner 4x400. 4x400 is the majority owner of these brands. So there's this giant web of relationships there. Stephanie: Yeah, okay. That helps me understand the landscape a bit more. How do you think about acquiring brands, how do you find brands that are willing to say, "Okay, we'll give you a majority share and come under your company"? Andrew: Yeah. Well, there's a few ways. CTC is a magnet for some of them. Sometimes brands will come to CTC and CTC will say, we're not the right partner for you. You're not a place where you can afford us. One piece of advice I have for a lot of it was like, if you are paying an agency not very much money you should really think about whether the agency is good because agency economics just require, for you to get great service, they typically require a pretty good investment. Just think about it. Agencies exist by marking up people's time. So, an agency works well if they are able to attract and train great talent by nature of access to large amounts of information. Andrew: The value of an agency is that they are spending millions and millions of dollars of other people's money on stuff. So, it's information arbitrage in that respect. You can come to an agency and get that information applied to your brand in a way that maybe an in house resource can't always do because they just are not going to have the visibility to as much of what's going on. For that to work, then you have to mark up that time of high quality, talented people who are probably not cheap. And then also for something like Facebook ads, Google ads, and then oftentimes there's a creative element of that and a writing element of that, and a strap gentleman have that, so that means you got to pay designers and other people like that too. And then there's web dev parts of it. You start to put that all together and if it's too cheap, then you have to be going like, wait a minute, what am I actually getting here? Andrew: Some brands in the early days, will come to ... they'll be stalled out or come to CTC for resources. CTC will say to them, actually you can't really afford this. What we actually think is a better solution for you is to talk about a deeper investment where we can really surround you with more stuff. What we find is a lot of entrepreneurs love product building and customer communication in certain ways. They love their customer, they love their product idea people, but they don't necessarily have all of the skills around everything else it takes to grow a brand. In fact, they don't want to do those things. Andrew: Most entrepreneurs don't start brands because they love finance, they don't. They don't even necessarily love tactical marketing. A lot of times what we can say to them is, "Let us take all that stuff that you hate doing anyway from you, you feel overwhelmed and stalled all the time anyway. You come with us, we'll pay you a consistent salary," which is also a big help to some people who are going like, I just don't even know if I can perform this anymore. We'll help you grow. Some entrepreneurs want to stay on, some don't, some just wants to take it. So it really depends on each entrepreneur, but that's basically a lot of how we think about it. Andrew: And then for us, we evaluate the brand by saying like, "Does it have basic product market fit and basic fundamentals to where we think as we bring in all of our tactical expertise and all of our specific expertise in various disciplines that we can then apply that to the brand and grow it?" A brand who comes to us who hasn't really invested much in paid media, but has done 100 to $300,000 in revenue, we look at that and say, "That's ..." Actually, we have a really high amount of respect for that. It's really hard to do that, it's hard to do $100,000 without being good at Facebook ads. It's not easy. So we look at that and say like, "Good job. We don't think you're a failure. If you come to us and want our help, we think we get it." We look at that and say, "That's very impressive. Let us surround you now with resources that we can scale this to 10, $20 million in revenue." Stephanie: Very cool. How are your brands performing now? Andrew: Yeah, good. They're doing good. Andrew: I think COVID really helped Ecommerce brands massively. Two things happen at the same time. One of them is that large corporations who have diversity of sales channels, but were spending lots of money on advertising, pulled their advertising budgets the way the heck back. Of course, lots of other companies couldn't produce products. So they couldn't sell products in retail settings, so they pulled a lot of the budget back. They couldn't produce products because of supply chain problems. And then at the same time ... So that meant that in large auction based advertising work universes like Facebook ads and Google ads, ads got suddenly way cheaper really fast. Andrew: The way that works is that because those are built on an auction, if a lot of people leave the auction everybody's prices get cheaper. We've looked at this data across CTC accounts. There was a giant plummeting of advertising CPMs in those worlds. And then at the same time in the last couple months, conversion rate on websites went up because the only place to capture demand was online. You couldn't go buy stuff in the store. So if you're selling things on the internet, that's where people are buying things from. And then of course, the stimulus checks it. As people have noted, that actually ended up being one of the largest increases in revenue to the average American family in history. So, all of a sudden, people have money to spend. Whether or not they should have spent it on consumer goods is a different question, I don't really know. But they had money to spend. Andrew: The less places for that demand to be captured mostly on Ecommerce stores. And then also, it got a lot cheaper to reach those people with ads. You put that all together and Ecommerce did really, really, really well for a couple months. So that really helped us. There's no question about it. We're still feeling some of the positive effects of that. It feels weird to be a winner in COVID, but there's no question that Ecommerce brands were .. To varying degrees depending on the category you're in, for sure. Andrew: We have three brands that are in the established stage and not in the start it up stage. Stephanie: What account is established, is it a revenue metric or- Andrew: Yeah, a good question. I'd say a million dollars during 12 months, or a million dollar run rate. We would look at and say, "Okay, we're growing at the pace that we want." I can just give you some numbers. We're projected this year to go to have one of our brains go to 8 million, that brand did 100,000 in 2017. Last year, we really took it over halfway through the year. I think we ended at 750 for the year. So, that's definitely our fastest growing brand right now. Stephanie: That's [crosstalk 00:16:47]. Andrew: Another one- Stephanie: ... some good growth right there. Andrew: Yeah. We feel good about that. That's profitable too, which is definitely in our model. We took on a little bit of funding early, but not a ton of funding. We function more like a bootstrapped company. And then another one went from ... just a little over two years ago, we acquired it. It was basically doing no revenue, it'll do 3 million this year. Yeah, that's a different story. And then another one went from 250 to a million to just under two, this year, we'll do four to four and a half probably. So those ones are all we feel established growing at the pace we want, we feel really good about. Stephanie: Yeah. That's some impressive number. How do you grow these brands? What are some of your tactics and strategies that you rely on those, what do you see success with? How can someone else learn from what y'all are doing to grow their Ecommerce companies? Andrew: Yeah. Facebook ads is the core driver of customer acquisition for us. I mean, selling consumer goods direct to consumer online, Facebook ads is still the most powerful tool in the world for reaching people. I'm hearing chatter about other things, YouTube, Snap, even Tik Tok, Google ads, product's changing. I just think still at this point, at scale, depending on what you mean by scale, people define that word differently. But for us, that's the core, top of the funnel way that we get traffic to our website. Andrew: I mean, you think about what Facebook ads is, it's not buying ads so much as buying traffic. I guess it's both really. But we look at that and say, "If we can make the traffic worth more than we're paying for it, worth enough more that we're paying for it to cover the cost of goods and things like that," I should say, "Then we can win." That's how we drive top of funnel traffic for us. And then after that, we try to do everything that we think great brands should do, which is like create a beautiful website that treats their customers great, has generous returns and shipping policies as much as we can afford to do it basically, which varies from brand to brand, depending on a number of factors. Do a great job with your retention email and other automated flow stuff. Constantly testing conversion rate optimization on our site in various ways. There's just a whole bunch of that kind of stuff that we're doing on the backend of that. Andrew: We are also certainly looking to invest in other top of the funnel type metrics, our traffic drivers as well. I would think of Google search as mid funnel and Google shopping as mid funnel. So, we're definitely investing there as well. I think we'll keep doing other stuff. That won't work forever. There's going to be a cap to how much Facebook ads does the driver work and we fully intend to add to our customer acquisition approach when we can. But our goal has been to grow profitably and we think that's one of the best ways to do it right now. Andrew: The other thing is it's not just one of the best ways to do it, it's just that we also have deep expertise in it. So, I'm just a believer that do the thing you do well as much as you can. I think it works for leadership and working with teams. Just as much as we can set up our team members to be doing the things that they love doing and they're good at. As long as the things that people love doing and are good at create value for the company, then you should pay them to do it. So that's the way we look at it too. Andrew: Just coming from the agency side, I personally have managed, I don't know, 25 ad accounts, that's probably more than that. Seen a lot more of that when I was the head of strategy and working with other strategists. I don't mean that to brag. It means that now I have some intellectual capital built up on what works. So, that's what we use from there. Stephanie: Cool. To drill in a little bit deeper then for the Facebook ads because I think a lot of companies probably have looked at Facebook ads, maybe they're using it. I haven't heard of anyone growing liked you guys are growing your brands consistently. So what tactics are you using specifically, or what do you see works well? Andrew: Yeah, there's a lot I can say about that. I think this is going to sound so fishy, but if you're getting serious about that, there's a couple of things ... The thing I would actually tell you to do, if you don't know where to start and you're getting serious about it, is to go visit your admission.co. I don't know, maybe I can give you a link to this, Stephanie, at some- Stephanie: Yeah, we can link it up. Andrew: Cool, yeah. So that is CTC's education program. It's not a course, it's different than every other education thing I know of in this world. It's actually a moderated community with access to ... Taylor, the CEO of CTC is in there doing webinars like our team members, our brand managers and people like that. Also, might jump in there and do webinars exclusively for that community. What we're doing is teaching all of the things that are ... what we believe are really the best practices for Facebook ads from the perspective of creative, from the perspective of targeting, bidding, all that kind of stuff. Bringing people through all of those things and then giving them continued support with access to the actual CTC teams who are doing that same thing that I was describing, which is spending millions of dollars of other people's money, so you can have access to that knowledge set. I think it's 500 bucks a month right now. Andrew: I even say sometimes there's even executive level people who will take their whole team through it. It's not like you're going to be in it for forever. The point is that you can do that and get access to what we believe works best. We're always evaluating that. There are certainly other things to do there, but that'll give you what we ... We try to be really honest and transparent where we can about what we're seeing. So that will give you mental ways to think about that problem. Andrew: I think one of the things that can go wrong is you could listen to me talk about this, and maybe you're an entrepreneur and you hear my numbers and you go like, I'm going to go do that. You just blow money because you make simple mistakes that somebody could help you not make, if you've just got some support. There is no way to learn besides doing it really. You're going to make mistakes, it's okay. In my view, creative needs to be really product focused in the sense that it's on Facebook ads and Instagram ads. You are driving high quality traffic by giving people a clear sense of what your product is right away. Clear wins over everything else first as a baseline. Andrew: Clear doesn't make you give you the best out in the world. They're clear plus some other things do that, but clear establishes a baseline of what you can expect and at least drives what I consider high quality traffic to your side. People who are interested in you because of your product. So that's probably the first basic principle I would say is focus on being clear in your creative before you focus on being clever or funny, or any of those kinds of things. You can drive a lot of very cheap traffic to your website with Clickbait tactics, but they won't buy anything. Ultimately, it won't matter how cheap the traffic is if they don't buy anything. So that's the kind of thing I would say. Andrew: And then the other big thing I'm a huge believer in is trust the algorithm. There was a world where people talk about Facebook ads as the value of micro-targeting that was one of the phrases people would talk about. This idea that you'd go find exactly your customer really specifically target them without everybody else. I think there was a time when that was part of how you did it. Those times are gone. What I would say is what you want to do is give Facebook as much information as possible and let Facebook's algorithm predict the future for you because humans are terrible at predicting the future. Algorithms are pretty good at it. So, algorithms do a really good job of looking at the data set of who's responding to your advertising. And then going and saying, here's some more people like that to put you out in front of. So, we believe in really broad targeting. Andrew: Let Facebook have as much freedom as you can to go and find the next person to put you out in front of. Over time, not even over that much time, Facebook's amazing in this regard much quicker than Google is at this. Facebook will find who those people are. So that's the broad principles I would say is trust the algorithm, be clear with your creative. There you go. There's just so much more I could say about the Stephanie, but I'm going to stop there. So I don't take up the entire rest of the podcast. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah, we will definitely link that up. I think it's a really important point too to segment a piece of your ad budget for testing. I know we do that internally as I'll tell. Our team members are like, "Hey, you have this much money. If you spend it and you just learn from it, that's okay. Versus this amount let's actually protected and make sure we drive results with it." So I think it's good to go into a mindset being okay with using a portion of ads for an R&D type testing project. So, you feel like you can learn from it, but not blow your entire budget on it. Andrew: Okay, no question. Constantly testing is super crucial. What I'd say about that is, when I want to test on Facebook ads, the place I want to test most is take big swings with your tests. The common thing you hear people say with testing, you'll hear people like, I've seen so many articles trumpeting like, oh, we changed our CTC button color or we changed it from [inaudible] now and it was a 15% lift. Andrew: First of all, I just don't believe those studies anymore. Secondly, the reason you're writing about it is because it's exceptional. It doesn't happen all the time. I just think that's a waste of people's time. But most people need to do, if they're looking to go from not successful to successful, the larger the difference in outcome you want, the bigger the change you need to make. You can't just change the background color of your ad and expect that it give you wildly different results. That's once you have results you like and now you're just dialing in and trying to grab an extra 2% of value here and there. I just rarely see that thing work. Andrew: What I would say is much better to think to test is something like, what's the offer that you're giving people? What's the product you're starting with and leading with? That can create wildly different results. We just ran something for our jewelry company that we ... 31 Bits, which is our other most recent acquisition, our fourth brand. We started with a batch of ads focusing on one set of products were necklaces and bracelets and things like that. We were getting a dollar of 50 clicks, low click through rates, et cetera, and very poor conversion rate. Andrew: We changed the product set, same exact brand, similar styles of photography, but just different products to a whole different category of product and saw triple or more the performance suddenly CTC went way down. Click through rate, went way up, conversion went way up. The reason why is really obvious, it's jewelry, some people like some bracelets better than others. If you just use the same stuff all the time, people are going to respond to it the same way over time. There's no magic to that. That's how people shop for something that you wear. It's about what it looks like. So, by changing the products that we led with that made a huge difference. So that's what I'd say is for Ecommerce consumer good people, that's the kind of test you want to be running. Andrew: Give it a whole different products out, a whole different offer, a whole different way of framing the offer, don't just change little bits of the creative and copy if you want to change your outcome in a big way. Stephanie: Yeah. I love that. People I talk to sometimes are focused on those micro adjustments that you're talking about or just the minimal incremental pieces that they could change, whether it's button colors or all that. That's a good point too. Yeah. Focus on the higher level things. But how did you decide on what new products to show? Andrew: In that case, part of it was what new products ... there's a change in our product development, that's going to make it so, or in our manufacturing that was going to make it to that, we're phasing out some products anyway. We always start by looking at most products over various periods of time. This is a simple way to start. I mean, there's not a lot of science to it in that respect. I think we're just looking around- Stephanie: Just seeing what it's doing well in the market. Andrew: Yeah. And what's done well on our side. Honestly, part of it is for a place to start your testing just like make a hypothesis and test it. I mean, it's not- Stephanie: Yeah. What timeframe are you looking at? When you do the test, are you looking at 30 days? Let's see how it does and try something new, or is it like after a couple of days you'll know and try something different? Andrew: Yeah. I'd say budget is probably a bigger factor than time. So if you're spending thousands of dollars a day, it doesn't take very long good answers. If you're spending a couple $100 a day, it takes a little longer. It also changes relative to your average order value. What you need is a statistically significant number of responses and really a statistically significant number of conversions. You can think of conversions as micro conversions as well. For example, a click on an ad is a conversion in a sense. Clicks as a percentage of impressions is a conversion. Because it's pretty cheap to run Facebook ads, you can actually figure out a reliable statistically significant performance in a click through rate pretty fast without having to see how those clicks convert. Andrew: In that case, it took us, I mean, I think we're got 100 bucks, when we knew that this new round of ads was way, way better performing because the gap and click through rate was so significant between the two. That's another core principle here. The larger the gap and the outcome, or the larger the disparity in the outcome, the more likely it is that it's a reliable result, if that makes sense. In that case, I think we spent between the two products, that's a total of 1,500 bucks. The whole goal of that was to test those while we went and ordered new products to try and start scaling a little bit for a larger test in the future. I didn't really care what the actual result was. The goal is a bigger goal to win bigger over time. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. When talking about growing, I saw that you guys live by a central Ecommerce growth formula. I was hoping you could go into that a bit. Andrew: Yeah. This is changing a little bit in some ways. I'll give you the baseline version of it, which is visitors tasks conversion rate times average order value. This is actually really simple. Every business in the world only actually has three factors that make up the value that you get from a purchase, or that make up your revenue actually. The first factor is how many people come to your business. This could be people walk into your store, it doesn't have to be a website. But just never people who show up. And then you multiply that by the conversion rate. So, what percentage of those people buy something from you? And then you multiply that by how much they spend. Andrew: When you look at that, that will equal your revenue. If you just say, how many people get there, how many of those people buy and how much they spend when they do? That's the entirety that makes up the revenue. That's incredibly simple and intuitive in a lot of ways. But what I find is that in the fog of war, people lose sight of that very simple concept. So, they start making tests and changes without a really clear idea of which one or multiple of those variables they're actually trying to affect. Of course, those all relate to each other. For example, your average order value goes up, your conversion rate goes down, that's a general rule of thumb, it's true across everything. It's intuitive when you think about it. Andrew: A smaller percentage of people are going to buy a $1,000 item than a $10 item. As you drive more traffic, it's highly likely that you're driving lower and lower quality traffic. Everybody exists along in the world, exists along a continuum of people likely to buy your product and unlikely to buy your product from your mother, who's the most likely person in the world to buy your product to- Stephanie: That is number one. Andrew: Yes. To a subsistence farmer who doesn't have the internet is the least likely person. The farther you go from your mom to the subsistence farmer, the more expensive it is to acquire that customer. So as traffic grows, then your conversion rate is likely to go down. That's just another helpful concept, I think. These are rules of thumb to heuristics they're not always true, but that's a basic way of thinking about it. We think about those three levers in what we do and really try to understand when we test something at any point in our funnel, whether it's on the website or ad level or whatever, which one of those am I actually trying to affect? Where's the problem in my business? Andrew: I've talked with friends of mine who own CrossFit gyms, and I've said to them like ... I'm thinking of a friend in particular whose gym was struggling. I was trying to help him think this way, which of these is the problem for you? Are not enough people showing up to your gym? Or when they show up, do they not buy a membership? Or do they buy a cheap membership or you give them a month free and then they don't spend any money after that? Which one of these is the problem? That probably gets towards LTV as well, or CLV, Customer lifetime Value as something to think about in the midst of all this as well. This is where you can make it a little more complicated, but that basic principle is true. Across the gym, just like on my consumer goods websites, it's the same problem. You just have to figure out which one of those things has the highest upside at the lowest cost to fix next. That's where you should put your energy. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. Have you ever pitched a brand to be taken over by a 4x400 that you believed in where everyone else on your team didn't believe in it? Andrew: Oh yeah. This is where it helps to be coldly rational. Gosh, I don't mean rational like smart, I'm always right. I just mean my approach is unemotional to a lot of this stuff. To the probably emotional dysfunction in other ways in my life or something like that, I'm not saying you should emulate this necessarily. But that's why there's therap, so it's fine. So, sorry? I know there's some noise there. A lot of times, if we're tweeting about a new brand acquisition. People will say privately like, "I do believe in this," or "I don't believe in this." I just started think that's like ... I think without having the view that I have in the acquisition process, I just don't even know what somebody is judging that on. People just go by their general sense of what they believe about if it's a good brand or not. Andrew: First of all, other people are not like you. Your subjective sense of that may not reflect at all what I brought population to potential customers is. Secondly, to me, you can validate this pretty clearly by looking at simple product market fit, things like margin is a huge question, which makes businesses work and it makes other businesses fail, is one of the problems of opening day. We made a huge mistake by just giving ourselves away too little margin on the products. Stephanie: What's the little margin, what do you consider small? Andrew: Yeah. Well, I think if you're going to try and grow a brand with ... I'll just tell you, we target 70 points plus of margin for brands that we are trying to grow with our method of growth. And then that's really important. If you have other growth mechanisms that might not matter as much. But for us, we want 70 points plus landed margin. We can deal with a little less than that, but if you're going to try and grow a brand with Facebook ads, you're going to need to be able to exist at a two to one return on your money on ads probably. It's hard to really beat that number, if not withstanding something like coronavirus throwing those small. So we target that. That becomes a big question for us, if we think we can do that. Andrew: Sometimes actually it's part of the first thing we have to fix for a brand is, we see supply chain processes that are in our view broken and we would say like, "We love everything about this brand. It's convergent on site, is great relative to its average order value, relative to its traffic sources." We dig into all that stuff, and say, "But your margin is not good enough, but we think we can solve that. W can help with getting your shipping cost down by repackaging it differently, or thinking about what products to focus on or not, or changing your manufacturer or something like that." We don't want to ever do that at the expense of giving people a good product. We haven't compromised on that at this point, which I'm happy about. But yeah, those are all the things that we can look at as potentially something to fix. But in our view, 70 points plus, makes the game a lot easier for sure. Stephanie: Got it. I like that point too about, what would someone know when they're doubting a brand? Because that is definitely a human flaw thinking about ... even when I'm thinking about those rubber bracelets from a while back, for me to say, "Oh, that's dumb," I don't need to be balanced or anything, or I need help with that. It's funny because it's like, well, apparently a lot of other people did because look how many people bought it. Yeah, I think that's also a good lesson for anyone starting something up. If they hear someone say like, "Oh, that's dumb, you shouldn't do that." Probably good to take a step back and be like, well, that's just one person's opinion and not let it deter you from trying at least. Andrew: Yes, especially relative to the set of metrics I have in front of me, which are going to tell me something a little bit different. This is one of the things that's so great about data is that I'm just wrong, Stephanie, about so many things in life, I just know I am. So having some source outside of my own brain that I can look at. When my own eyes are lying to me, humans are just biased machines. We're just machines of bad thinking about stuff. So, finding ways to be aware of my priors going into something and my bias going into something, check those against some sorts of truths that exist outside myself. Of course, people can lie with data and data can be poorly collected. There's all kinds of ways that can go wrong too. But in light of all those things, I just think that it becomes really helpful to do that, to go and have a source like that to go check in. So that's what we do in our process. Andrew: There's various levels of excitement about brands even internally. But there's no question that ... We sincerely believe it can work based on the data set in front of us and a few other old principals. So that's what we do. Stephanie: That's cool. We're mentioning data, stick with the data when it comes to it and don't just listen to unfounded opinions. What kind of metrics do you look at that you think a lot of other brands aren't utilizing enough? There's obvious ones like conversions and click-through rates and all that kind of stuff and revenue obviously, but is there anything that you look at that you think enough people aren't paying attention to? Andrew: There's no magic here. After we acquired 31 Bits, this jewelry company ... really super cool brand. This brand was started by women who were anthropology majors in college and wanted to provide good quality jobs to people who could not access them by nature of where they lived in the world. So they started in Uganda after a trip there and had these women making these really cool beads. This started in 2009. These women were out to change the world with this brand. It's just totally authentic, beautiful brand story around all of this stuff. When we acquired that, I on my podcast, it's called- Stephanie: What is your podcast? Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I feel so lame doing this right now, but- Stephanie: Oh, sorry, Andrew. Andrew: I know. There's a tangent there. But anyway, if somebody really wants to hear how I think about this question, I spent about 45 minutes with Taylor, the head of our agency, talking about exactly why we acquired 31 Bits. We did an episode about that. I'll find it and send it to you for the show notes as well. And then we interviewed the ladies from the brand for the next episode after that, so people could kinda hear why they chose us as well. We tried to be really honest about why we think it'll work and why we think it could fail. I would say the metrics related to that, that I care about, it's not just conversion rate it's conversion rate relative to average order value and relative to traffic sources. That's a huge one for us. Andrew: Conversion rate itself is actually so context specific that it's not that helpful of a metric. I mean, think about the conversion rate of a direct click. Somebody comes to the website, types in 31bits.com, presses enter. Let's take a 45 year old female on a desktop computer direct versus a 25 year old male on their cellphone through a display ad on the internet, saying conversion rates to describe what both of those people are doing and getting a baseline is not going to be helpful at all because the baseline for those two different customers of what you'd expect, they're so different. I mean, just the device issue you're twice as likely to convert on desktop than you are as mobile before you talk about any of the rest of the demographic's software or anything like that. Andrew: We try to really give some specificity of the context of something like conversion rate. Even one thing you'll see there is like, sometimes the brand's conversion rate will look low, but it's actually not low. The reason it looks low is because they're getting a ton of blog traffic via organic search SEO essentially. That blog traffic is technically on their URL, but it's not at all related to their product and it's not people looking for their product. Therefore, that blog traffic will have an incredibly low conversion rate and will therefore negatively influenced the total conversion rate. If you bucket that blog traffic out, it turns out the conversion and the brand is fine and their website works great and you just didn't realize that. I don't know if that example made sense. But there's- Stephanie: It does make sense. Andrew: ... there's just all of these kinds of contexts, things like that, that I think are really crucial to look at all the way around. We look at some other stuff like we've looked at entire funnel on our site, so we'll look at not just the conversion rate thing. If somebody doesn't buy something on your website, there's a question of why did they not buy? Because they made it to your website, so what happened next? Did they never add anything to cart or did they add to cart and then drop off once they got to checkout or did they never even make it to checkout or what? We look at each of those things and try to understand what's going on. Andrew: If somebody adds to cart and makes them check out and then drops off, why? The answer to that question is probably because you're shipping cost is too much a lot of times, or it's going to get shipped slowly, or they're not confident in return policy or whatever. So we'll look at some of that stuff too. We have a value of 4x400, which is understanding before you act and paired with that is hard problems require deep focus, or require deep work. The basic concept is like, before I go and throw out a million solutions, I want to really understand as clear of terms as possible exactly what's wrong. Andrew: When I hear somebody say my Facebook ads are broken, the thing I want to say is, "What do you mean? What's happening? What broken- Stephanie: What are you doing? Andrew: Right, yeah. "Is the conversion rate broken? Are the clicks too expensive? Where is the problem? Are you not getting a high enough AOV? When you say it's broken, what do you mean?" To try to help people answer that question because then it can guide where to think about the next problem. Stephanie: Cool. I love that. Yeah, that was a really good example. Stephanie: Are there any things, technology or otherwise tools that you're using right now that are maybe new that you're excited about? Andrew: Well, I'll tell you what I think that is, it's not the answer you're looking for, but I think it's the answer that I get. Stephanie: Go for it. Andrew: My answer is no I don't. We will get there to where we'll need to do that, but I just think this is a massive distraction for a lot of people. I think people love to go chase the next new thing. They'll even say things like, "well, my customer is on Tik Tok." I don't really know what that means. Yes- Stephanie: I don't really know who's on Tik Tok right now. Andrew: I'm 36. First all, I'm 36, I'm too old and I don't get Tik Tok. I've never had Facebook on my phone, so I'm just the worst social media marketer ever in that respect. I do not understand what's happening in the world. I just don't always know what that kind of thing means. I think your customers probably also want Instagram because there's a lot of people on Instagram. So I could be wrong about that, I guess. I'd be so happy for somebody to correct me if that's the case and reach out and tell me, "You're not looking at this right." Anyway, I just think it becomes a huge distraction for people to go and try and find another new thing to go do instead of to get really good in one or two areas. Andrew: We will expand channels over time. I think we're really trying to build out more search and shopping as a next step for us, that is not a new channel at all. It's actually the oldest digital marketing channel, search in particular,. I'm playing around with some ideas from SEO, but really I'm just trying to make my customer more valuable at this point. So, just trying to really get better via email, post-purchase, via my unboxing experience, trying to think about how unboxing and product experience creates retention in word of mouth. I'm trying to dig deeper and get better at the things I'm already doing rather than adding a whole lot, I think. Stephanie: With everything happening in the world right now, it does seem like there, like you mentioned early on the show, there're a lot of changes happening, especially around Ecommerce. I know you're talking about focusing on what's working and all that, but is there anything you're preparing for over the next three to five years that you're anticipating around Ecommerce trends? Andrew: Yeah, all right. This is my coronavirus beat right non. This is a really fun question and is a great podcast fodder. I do not fault you for asking it and I don't want you to hear my answer to this as condescending. But there's no possible way in the world that I could predict the future that far out. Here's what I believe about predicting the future. The more complex the system you're project predicting with the more inputs that there are there, over the longer the timeline, the harder it is to project. So, I might be able to give you some sense of what's happening next week, but then also last week, all these companies started saying they're going to pull their Facebook ad spend. Stephanie: Yeah. I didn't why I mention that, but I'm like well, that seems like it's a good opportunity then, like you're mentioning to get on Facebook. Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Stephanie: I think Zuckerberg even said they'll be back or something like that, which is just funny. Andrew: First of all, who could have predicted over that timeline, that kind of thing would happen? Before you even talk about Zuckerberg, who ... There's just so many elements. The system of macroeconomics in the U.S., before you even talk to the world, is so big with so many inputs and so complex that I just don't believe in anybody's ability to really predict that. So what I think is that it's not helpful generally to do that. I'll say three to five years, the one thing I feel broadly, fairly comfortable with though, I think even this has, there's some basic questions is that Ecommerce, as an industry, Ecommerce is a share of U.S. retail spending, will continue to grow. Andrew: I mean, I just have no possible way of predicting that. So I feel like it's a good place to be if you're in Ecom, I think you should be investing in Ecom broadly. I just don't think otherwise it's very possible to do that. I mean, just look at what we were all saying about coronavirus two months ago and the models that we were all looking at about what this thing could be. It's been devastating. I don't want to underplay that, but it has not been in the U.S. the millions of deaths at this point, at least. Who knows that people were predicting? I just look at that and go like, that's because predicting that many things for something with that much unknown is really, really hard. Andrew: My take on this is to go read Nate Silver's book, The Signal and the Noise and to hone your skills thinking about what kinds of things you can and can't project, and even how to think about projecting things. And then to go from there, which means the way you win is not by predicting the future, but by honing your fundamentals and carving really good thought processes. This is what I really believe in the most. To think about this all like poker, which is that good poker players don't win by winning a hand, they win by playing lots of hands really well and by making the right move over and over. Understanding the game that there are going to be times when they're going to be in a big spot with a lot of money in the pot and the card will come up and go the wrong way. But if they play enough big pots and enough money in it, the law of large numbers says that they'll win over time. I think that's the way to think about it. Andrew: Get really good at understanding something like visitors and conversion rate times average order value and asking the right questions about that. Get really good at following your profit margins everywhere you can . Get as much clarity about them as you possibly can that way you know where your money is going and where you're making money and where you're not. If you can do those things over a long period of time and just get good at finding good people to work with and get good at those sorts of things, you will win. So ultimately, I bought into the partnership at CTC with my own money, I'm not rich. Andrew: The reason I put my money into that is because I believe in the humans that are the partner group there, and I believe that those people overall given enough chances will win. That's the way I think you should think about your brand and your business is find partners and find brands and businesses that you believe will play the right hand the most times and are people of high character. That is part of the right hand of what you're play, you're going to have a relationship with these people. Every part of your business, if you can do those things, then I think over the aggregate, you're going to win. Stephanie: That's great. That actually took a very nice spin because at first I'm like, okay, no one's going to disagree with you that Ecommerce is going to grow. But I like the spin that you just took on it about what you should focus on instead. So, good answer. Andrew: Thanks. Yeah, I know. It's a compound answer in some ways, but it's really what I believe is true about the world. It's so sexy to say, okay, over the next month, this is going to happen and this is going to happen. Next time somebody on the show gives you that answer, bring them back on in six months and ask them what happened and- Stephanie: I was just going to say that. I think the world is still missing a little bit of the accountability piece because I see people still on Twitter, even the people who are talking about the end of the world, no one's following up with these people, how come this guy has had a billboard out around California for a long time saying the end of the world was going to happen, I guess, a few weeks ago, and it didn't? What now, are we going to follow up with him and be like, "Hey, what happened?" Andrew: Yeah, that's a very California story. I like that. Stephanie: All right. We're going to shift now into something called the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a quick question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Andrew? Andrew: I am. But this is the ultimate challenge for me. Stephanie: This will be the hardest part of the interview. Andrew: Yeah, it probably are. All right, I'll do my best. Stephanie: I actually feel like you're going to have some great answers, that's why I've been excited to get to this. All right. If you were to have a podcast, who would your first guest be and what would the show be about? Other than the podcast that you're running now, you can't say that one. Andrew: Okay. I think it would be about exploring. Does it my guess have to be a live or can I pick anybody? Stephanie: No. Andrew: Okay. I think it would be about exploring big ideas about the world like theology, philosophy kind of stuff, but for the every man or woman. So, it would try not to be too much in the clouds, my guess would be C. S. Lewis, not because he's the most interesting thinker in the history of the world, although he's a really interesting thinker, but because he says things in really interesting ways. So, I think he would be a fascinating guy to just sit and talk with. When I think of a historical person I'd want to talk with most, would be that. Either that or a baseball ball guest. Stephanie: All right. Well, that's cool. That's a good answer. What's up next on your reading list? Andrew: Books I'm in the middle of or after? Stephanie: I'd say, you can do both, middle of and ones that you're looking back on like, that was a good book. Andrew: Okay. The Color of Law is the book I'm in the middle of right now. Richard Rothstein going through the history of government and forced racism in the U.S. incredibly helpful book for me so far. I'm three quarters away through. Highly recommended to try and get your head on straight about what's going on with race in the U.S. just pure history. It's really good. And then I am reading a Christian book called Money, Possessions and Eternity about how to use your money for compassion and care for people instead of for yourself. So, that's what I'm in the middle of right now. And a baseball book called Ball Four, which is a famous book. Stephanie: That's cool. If you were to pick a country to focus on to maybe buy a new brand from, what country would you look into? Andrew: A country? Stephanie: Yeah. If you were to bet big, I'm going to go for something in India, that's top of mind right now because I just read the whole thing between India and China and turning off Tik Tok in India. So, it's very interesting to me thinking about, if you were to bet on brands from a certain country or are you looking to go international, where would you go? Andrew: I think the answer is India. I think that's probably the right answer. The cost of reaching people in India is very cheap and India's economy seems to be growing very fast. But I'm just bullish on global economy in general. So, I think you could probably broadly pick out. In the last 50 years, massive amounts of extreme poverty have been alleviated in the world thanks to globalization and technology and all kinds of things like that. The world is a much better place than people make it sound. That's another book record recommendation, Factfulness by Hans Rosling. Go read that book- Stephanie: Factfulness. Andrew: ... it will help you look at the world totally different. Factfulness. Forget my other book my other book and finish reading that one. Stephanie: I'll link of that one. Yeah, no, I think that's where I would bet too because I think I just read that, it's a billion and a half people there only a third of them, I think have cell phones right now. They're coming online at a very quick rate. So, I think- Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's incredible how much better life has gotten in the world for so many people. There's very hard life in the world for a lot of people, so to not to underplay that. But it's just crazy and it's going to keep happening. Stephanie: Yeah, I agree. What's up next in your travel destinations? Andrew: Anywhere- Stephanie: When you can travel. I think, just outside my neighborhood. Andrew: Yeah. I like Austin, Minnesota where my family is, hopefully in a couple of weeks, but we'll see. As far as other places, I love Boston. Would like to go with my wife there. I have a seven month old though, so the actual answer to this question is probably nowhere for a while. Stephanie: Yeah. That's my life too. I have four month old twin boys and a two year old. Someone asked me like, "Oh, where are you going to go on vacation?" I'm like, "Nowhere outside of 10 miles away." It's a mess to get into the car that would be- Andrew: Four-year-old twin boys? Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. Andrew: I think it's awesome. Congratulations. That's beautiful. Stephanie: Thanks. Yeah, it's a wild ride. All right, the last one ... Yeah, you know. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Andrew: I just watch the same shows over and over again with my wife. Stephanie: Does she get to choose? Andrew: She does most times, yeah. Stephanie: So you guys are watching Selling Sunset and things like that? Andrew: No. We watched Parks and Rec, 30 Rock and The Good Place- Stephanie: Okay, those are very ones. Andrew: ... over and over and over again. That's probably all we watch. I don't know. The decision fatigue I have on this particular issues, we just created a Slack channel that worked for media recommendations because I just don't know even what to do anymore about where to look next. So, I wish I had a better answer than that. It would- Stephanie: Let us know if you find something from your Slack channel. Andrew: Yeah. It's probably another episode of The Good place. My team is really hot on Yellowstone right now, so there you go. Stephanie: Okay. I don't know what that is, that just shows I am not with it either. So I'll have to check that out. Andrew: Kevin Costner intense ranching family season three. Stephanie: Okay. I'll have to dive into that one. All right, that was a good lightning round. Is there anything that you were hoping to cover, are there any last words of advice before we hop off? Andrew: I think just that in situations like this, I always just want to say that when somebody asks you for answers on a podcast, it's super easy to make it sound easy in some ways. But it's really hard actually to do these things and to grow business and to work in a team and all these things. So, I think the parting word for me is always just to say, it's not actually as easy as it maybe. I hope I didn't make it sound like that. It's just challenging at times. So, keep at it and surround herself with good people. Yeah, I think that's it. I think I just properly took all the wind out of the point that I was making by monitoring it at the end there. Maybe out of [inaudible 01:02:52]. That's the big piece for me, is just you can do it, it is harder than it sounds a lot of times. Stephanie: Yeah, I like it. Well, Andrew, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was a lot of fun and ... Yeah, thanks for taking the time. Andrew: Thanks, Stephanie, for having me. It's super fun.

Eni and Andrew discuss how to approach traditional religions from a place of respect. They explore some misunderstandings and how to get around them. They also talk about the realities of practicing from a distance.  Both share from their journey in two different lineages in two countries. This conversation is important in the wider dialogue of appropriation going now around traditional knowledge.  Be sure to check out the bonus episode on proverbs around this topic for Patreon supporters here.   If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  You can find Eni on her site here or Facebook here.  Andrew is as always here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew Transcript   Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Eni Acho, who is an Orisha practitioner and priestess. She runs a wonderful Facebook group, but also ... website's called About Santeria, where there are lots of great conversations about the traditional practices and approaching the traditional practices of Orisha traditions, especially centered in Cuba. I think that given what I've seen more and more online and other places in conversations with people, this conversation about how do we approach a traditional religion as outsiders, is one that I think is really important. Andrew: I think that there's a lot of misunderstandings, I know I had a lot of misunderstandings or misconceptions about what things might be like. I think that these dialogues are important and obviously for my own personal tradition, but I also think that some of these conversations apply to any other traditional religion that you might approach as well. Eni, for those who don't know you, give us the lowdown. Who are you? What are you up to? Eni: Hi. My full Ocho name is Eni Acho Iya, which means the yellow dress of my mother. That's because I'm crowned to Oshun. Oshun is always associated with the color yellow. I was crowned in Palmira, Cuba and my lineage is called Palmira lineage. It's called the countryside or [inaudible 00:01:47] in Cuba to distinguish it from maybe what you might find in Havana or Mantanzas. But Palmira is one of the traditional centers of the Lucumi religion in Cuba. It was founded by the descendants of slaves who were taken to that part of Cuba to work in the sugarcane fields. After they were emancipated, they founded their own town, Palmira. Eni: It has three of the most traditional and oldest Lucumi religious societies in Cuba. The Sociedad Santa Barbara, Sociedad San Roque, and mine, the Sociedad el Cristo which is associated with the Sevilla family. A lot of people who practice Ifa know the name of [inaudible 00:02:30] or [inaudible 00:02:32] famous Babalawo's from Palmira. And that's my religious family, the Sevilla family. So I guess that's probably who I am, religiously speaking. And I've been running this website "About Santeria" for around six years, I think. As an educational website that aleyo's, outsiders can go to, to get basic questions answered. And just recently I created this page you referred to on Facebook so people can discuss some of the ideas. I'd like to invite anyone who's interested to take a look at that and welcome to the community if you decide to join us. It's a good community. I think lots of very knowledgeable priests in there and good conversations are taking place, so I'm happy with that. Andrew: I think it's great. There's lots of really knowledgeable priests, which is a great part of the equation. They're all, at least all the ones that I know, personally or through online interactions, they're all really solid people as well. Which is a really important part of that conversation too, right? Just because people know something doesn't necessarily mean anything anymore. There's this distinction that can happen between those things. That's one of the things that I also dig about that space and why I'm actually hanging out there as opposed to other spaces, where maybe people know stuff, but their character isn't as inspiring to me. Andrew: One of the things that I find really interesting is this idea of the distinction between what's going on now in a general way, and how stuff was a little while ago, or how things still are in certain parts of the world. Right? So you're from ... your practice and your connection, your family is in Palmira. What's it like there to sort of be born there and live there and practice this religion from that place, from a sort of real traditional community structure? Eni: I feel really fortunate to have had glimpses into everyday life there. I've been going there for over 20 years. And because of my work, I've been able to go and spend considerable amounts of time, like three months at a time, six months at a time, because my university here in Washington state has an exchange program with the university of Cienfuegos. And as an academic, that gave me a license, as ... the United States, it's not always that easy to go to Cuba, but because of my academic license, I've been able to go to Cuba pretty often, spend a lot of time there and really get to know the people very well. I've literally seen a whole generation of people grow up and I know what it's like from their point of view to be born there and be surrounded by this community. Eni: And I think it's important for your listeners to understand that this need that we have as outsiders, as people living in a different culture, we're always thinking, "how can I get in to that community"? Or "how can I get into the religion How do I find my way there"? It's always this destination or goal that people are looking for. And the big difference to me is that for people in Palmira, you're already there. You don't have to look for anything. It's all around you. It's in the air you breathe. And that's not to say that every single person that lives in the town is initiated in a religion, they're not, but certainly their neighbors are, or their cousin or their aunt or their grandma, people down the street. It's everywhere around you. And so if you have a concern, if you want to go get a reading done, you don't have to wonder where can I find a Babalow, where can I find a Santero? They're right there. And everybody knows them. Eni: There's a lot of accountability because literally these same people have lived there and their ancestors have lived there for 150 years and everybody knows who everybody is. Small town in Cuba, you don't have secrets. And I think that that makes it a really different experience because I've seen babies in their mother's arms at drumming ceremonies, because our ceremonies, our drumming for example, tend to be open to the public, people who live in Palmira, everybody comes and the whole family comes. So you have babies that can't even walk yet in their mothers' arms who are keeping time to the rhythm of the drum. And they are totally comfortable in that environment and they grow up with that. I've seen four year olds playing with their little stuffed animals, their bunny rabbits and teddy bears, and they're acting out an ocha ceremony that they've seen their parents do. So when you grow up with it all around you, that takes away a lot of the mystery. So it's not secretive. It's not hard to find. It's there. Eni: Our tradition in Palmira tends to be, for the most part, that we don't initiate very young children. Most people, if their family is religious, everybody in their family tends to get initiated, but they always leave it up to the individual to decide once they reach a certain level of maturity. And so typically you'll find people not getting initiated until maybe they're in their early twenties. That's changing. People now are doing more younger children, but we believe that it's not everybody's destiny to be initiated. That has to be something that's determined on an individual basis. But there are lots and lots of families where half the brothers and sisters are initiated, half aren't, and the cousin show up and they help out with the cooking and the cleaning before and after the ceremony. So everybody is involved in it and everybody feels connected to it, whether they're initiated or not. It's very comfortable. It's very organic and natural to just have it there. And that's such a different experience from what most of us outside Cuba. Andrew: I was in Matanzas last year playing for egun, for my godmother, passed away. Some of the things that struck me were, first of all, everybody knows everybody as you say. Right? You know, we're driving around the city with my godfather and he's like, "Hey, pull over" he leans out the window and has conversation with somebody and they'd keep going. Secondly, I don't know about architecturally in Palmira, but in Matanzas there are no windows on the windows, the doors are open. It's hot and you want those breezes. And so we're there doing the formal meal that's part of the ceremony and neighborhood kids who people know, or maybe they're children of people who are there, drift in, say hi, act like kids and run at the back and go and get some sweets or some food-[crosstalk 00:10:08] and they leave. Andrew: We were doing the drum in the front room and there's no ... the window's open and people are just walking by looking. People are walking by and they'll just start having a conversation with somebody who's there that they know. And it's very different than my experience of other things which it's done in somebody's house probably in their basements where do you see it? You don't see it anywhere. Right? As opposed to there. And also, as you say, driving around, you drive around and Oh, is that another drum going on over there? Oh yeah, it is. We should go by, Oh, is that another drum going on over there? There you go. You know? Eni: It's exactly like that in Palmira and it's hard to hide a drumming ceremony when the houses are so close together and all the doors are wide open. And everybody kind of spills out into the street and that interaction you were describing what the kids coming and going and people coming in and out all day. That happens literally every single day. When I'm in Palmira, I feel like I'm sitting in my godmother's house but it's like a train station with people coming and going and just, "Hey, what's going on?" and "anything going on?" And they have, you maybe know this expression in Spanish, radeo bemba, which means word of mouth, how the word spreads really quickly from person to person. So if somebody is going to have a drumming or somebody who's got an ocha birthday party or whatever's going on, everybody in the town knows everybody and they're very likely to just go by and drop in And see what's going on. Andrew: I think that this sort of leads to this idea of what does it look like to, as I said, is what are we looking to arrive in? I mean, really one of the things that we're looking for, whether we understand it or not when we start out is, we're looking to be welcomed into somebody's family. Eni: Yes. Andrew: We are looking to build a relationship and a connection hopefully to the community, to those people. I was at an event, I'd been hanging out with the Orisha community in Michigan where I was initiated 19 years now, 20 years, a long time. And we were having a conversation and somebody mentioned something and I'm like, "I was there when ... I helped make that person, I helped make that person, I helped make this person. I was there when this person was made, but I wasn't made yet". And there's this like longevity of connection, right? Whereas a lot of people sometimes come to these things with this idea that you're going to just arrive and be welcomed in, just arrive and suddenly everything's great or just arrive and you suddenly can get access or get recognized or whatever. But it's not really that way. I mean ideally it's not that way, right? Eni: No, you're absolutely right. And I think that a lot of this has to do with our understanding and we use the words in our religion. We talk about aleyo's, outsiders, strangers literally. And people in our culture tend to find that a little bit offensive. They think that means that they're not welcome. But in Cuba, that's not what it means. We simply differentiate for ceremonial purposes the people who are initiated, the Oloricha's. They have a certain role, a certain function, they do certain things. And if you're not initiated, you do other things and the rules are not identical. There is a hierarchy there. Not based on your worth as an individual or how smart you are or anything else. It's just are you initiated or not initiated? If you are, go in that room, if you're not going the other room. Right? Eni: I think Americans and, I don't know, maybe Canadians as well, people from outside that culture had a really hard time with that because we here in the U.S. where I live, we have such a consumer mentality and we identify something that we want and then we think "I'm going to get it. It's my decision, it's my choice. I'm in control of the process, here's my money, how much does it cost? Here's the money, okay, now I have it and it's mine." And they expect some kind of immediate acceptance or, "now we're the same. Okay. Because I paid my money and I'm just like you." And that is not how it works. Andrew: No, exactly. And that sense of entitlements that can be there is definitely a problem. And I think in two ways. One, as I know you do too, I get contacted by people sometimes who are like, "I need you to crown me" and I'm like, "my friend, I am not ... I don't even know." Why would I choose to incur a lifelong and perhaps more than this lifelong connection with you as being responsible for your spiritual wellbeing and to some extent your practical wellbeing forever, when I've never even met you. You know? So that's the challenge. And then the other side of that, of course, in a world where we're approaching people that we don't know who are not aleyos, but complete strangers irregardless, there's not that community knowledge of you should go see ... whatever, right? It should be because "I think they could be a good person for you, I think they could guide you, this person's a renowned diviner you should go see them." You don't have that connection. Andrew: And so all of these people, no matter what we think we know about them from seeing them on social media, they're all strangers too. And that's where so much of those problematic situations where people will be like, "Sure, yeah, absolutely. You've got the money, just give it to me, we'll be good." And then it's not good because those people on the other side are just looking to take that money and take advantage as well. It's a big problem. Eni: It's a big problem. And I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that people just get too impatient and they want it now. And a lot of times they don't even know why they want it and they don't even actually know what it is. And so the process always, in my opinion, has to be organic. It has to happen in kind of a natural way, right time, right people, right place. And you can't force it. I think that that's the key thing. You're not in control really. It's going to happen when the Orishas and your egun want it to happen. And the more you push and resist and try to get it all to go your way, I think you're just creating a lot of trouble for yourself. Andrew: One of the expressions that ... I didn't have the pleasure to meet your magua but a very famous oricha who's connected to my godparents ... one of the expressions that I hear, they used to say a lot was, "no, no, what you need to understand is, orisha is the boss here". We as people, we have our say and we get to make our choice. And it doesn't mean we have to accept everything or ... it is a relationship. But at a certain points your orisha needs to be the ones that we trust to dictate and to find the right time and space and, and all of those things. It's like the proverb, "every head is looking for its home". Not every little person, not every house, not everybody's situation is in right alignment for anybody. Right? Maybe someone comes to Palmira and they're like, "Oh, this actually doesn't fit for me". And not pushing there, not trying to push ahead one way or another makes the most sense in that situation. Eni: My own experience I think is a good example of that because I went to Palmira for the first time just because I was invited to somebody's house for dinner and I had absolutely no intention of making ocha there. It wasn't even on the horizon for me. I knew about the religion, I liked it, I was interested in it, but kind of from an academic standpoint. And I went to dinner at a colleagues house, a professor from the university and she introduced me to another professor from the university, her neighbor who lived the next block over and he turned out to be the head of the Sevilla family, a familia who was running a casto at that time. Eni: And I just became friends with that family and visited them for years, just dropping in and having coffee and chatting with them. And I wasn't showing up on the doorstep all the time saying, "teach me about the religion I want in help me, you have to be my godfather. It happened in a very gradual way where I started getting readings. I think most of us began that way where we get readings that guide us. Eni: Then over a long period of time, year. Little by little it came out that I needed to get this or I needed to get that. I got my warriors, I got cofa de orula and then it wasn't until I got cofa de orula [inaudible 00:20:06] in eka, was that I eventually needed to make ocha, and that was really stressed. Eventually, one day before you die. And my godfather said, "Think about it. Don't do it now. You need to kind of wrap your head around this and think about what it means and take your time and do it when you're ready". And I don't know, about four, three or four years later, it just happened like serendipity. That's what we're talking about here. These things just kind of all come together magically almost. I got a sabbatical from my university, I got a scholarship, it was a grant, that paid me to go to Cuba to do this research project I was working on and that turned out to be the gear I was able to make ocha because I was able to be in Cuba. Eni: And that's the experience I wanted with those people that I have known for many, many years and it just happened in a very natural way. And if someone had said to me 15 years earlier, "Oh yes, you're going to go to Palmira and make ocha". I would have said, "what's Palmira I don't even know what you're talking about." Andrew: I think that it's, even for me, I went looking for the religion. I had been explore ... doing Western ceremonial traditions and initiatory groups for a long, long time. And I had sort of hit this place where I felt like I really needed to connect with something deep and traditional. I was trying to figure out what that was, where this was in a pre-internet era. It wasn't like you could just jump on Facebook and find a bunch of things. And eventually I found my way to the community in Michigan and even at that, although I received my elekes and my warriors, I still was involved in that community for eight, nine years before I was crowned. I was one of those things like, "yeah, someday you should do that". Andrew: You should start putting aside your money and when you have the money you should think about doing it. One of the things that I noticed with people I have conversations about it now sometimes is they get to the end of the reading and they're like, "okay, but what do I need to receive? When do I need to make ocha?" One of the questions that I often returned to them with is, "well, is your life horrible? Is your life a hot mess? Are you sick? Are you like having horrible problems? You're reading doesn't say you're magically afflicted? Is there something going on? Your life is a disaster and you need to be saved from it". They're like, "Nope". I'm like, "man just keep living your life and as you need things, stuff will surface if you need things". Andrew: And I think that's another thing that, we don't understand. I didn't understand fully myself, even though I was aware of it going into it, is this notion that within the tradition, these things are medicines of a sort. They're there to either provide very specific kinds of guidance or specific energies or to counter specific energies so that we can live our life to the fullness of our destiny. As opposed to being things that we can collect or accumulate or that give us status or those kinds of things. You know? Eni: That's exactly right. That's how I feel about it too. And, and I think it's hard for people to understand that maybe they don't want to hear it when they're so enthusiastic and so determined that this is going to be their path. That's what they want to do. And one of the things that I hear a lot, and I think you do too, is people get frustrated and say, "okay, you're telling me to be patient, but what am I supposed to do? Just sit here and wait?". They want tips, how can I do something to make me feel like I'm moving forward? And so I actually do have some suggestions if you're determined that you want to learn and do more with this religion, I have some kind of practical tips that might get you started. Andrew: I'd love to hear them. Eni: I break down things into little lists, but I think many people begin with kind of an academic approach to it. So they read books and you mentioned 20 years ago we didn't have as many resources as we have now. Now we have the internet, we have lots more books than we used to have. We have all these religious forums on Facebook and many people are offering online classes of this kind or that kind. And all of those approaches are limited. I think that's the first thing I want to stress is that there's nothing wrong with reading books. There's nothing wrong with reading stuff on the internet, but there are lots of buts attached to that, lots of limitations because yes, there are some good books out there. Fortunately, thank goodness people like Willie Ramos is writing really good books on David Brown and other people who have the credentials and the research methodology down. And what they present is accurate and very good and very helpful. And that's always great to read. Eni: But I remember when I first started looking for books on religion, there are some really wacko books out there because now anybody can publish a book. It's all self publishing. You might go on Amazon and look for books and you might find 20 different titles and you just don't know which ones are good and which ones are not good. You can read the reviews but those are always written by somebody's friend and they don't necessarily tell the truth. You have to be careful when you're reading books too. First of all, evaluate the source. Who is this person writing the book? And if they say magic moon goddess has been practicing 300 world religions for the past year and a half and she's the author of this book on Santeria, I would not necessarily consider her a reliable source because if she's not even initiated what does she know about the religion? Eni: But if it says, "Willie Ramos is a professor of history who wrote his thesis on Havana in the 19th century" and whatever, and he has written these books that are published by university presses and published in scholarly journals. For me, that's an indication that those are serious things that I can read. And even after I read them though, I remember when I first started reading some of those books like David Brown's "Santeria Enthroned". It's a great book. Eni: But I didn't understand it. I was reading it and half of what he was talking about I had no idea what any of that meant and it took me years to realize that I was going to have to piece together all of this information I was accumulating and put it into some meaningful pattern because to my knowledge, there's not one book, a Bible that you just go to and it tells you everything you need to know. Every book will tell you a little bit or something, but nobody's going to tell you the whole story and you have to decide how does this information fit in with other things. You have to analyze it. And the same is true, especially on the internet because there is some good stuff on the internet but there's also a lot of terrible misinformation and the religious forums are the same. Andrew: One of the things that's really important to understand is, not only is there not one book that can tell you everything, It wouldn't even be possible, Right? Like the scope of this tradition is so massive. And when you start talking with someone who's an elder [inaudible 00:28:41] they're a knowledgeable Babalawo, whatever right? Someone who has lived in the tradition for such a long time, the amount of things that come up that are just different situations. I was at a ceremony recently and the person running it was like, "Oh yeah, you know what, your name's Oba tilemi right? Because I know the sound for that one." And so they sang the song that relates to my ocha name, which maybe I had heard it before, nobody had highlighted it, but I never pick that up before because there are so many songs for Shango. There's so many songs for everybody. There's so many stories, there's so many pieces and ceremonies and ideas and advices that it just expands in an unbelievably sophisticated way. Eni: They say the more you know the more you realize you don't know. It truly is a lifelong, lifelong process. But reading books is not a bad place to start given all these limitations that I've talked about. Because I think the positive thing about it is that way at least people who are interested and burning and to know something, feel like they have a little bit of control. Like, Oh, I found a book, I'm so excited and that's great, but it's limited. And eventually, like you mentioned earlier, this is about belonging to a community. And so sooner or later you have to get out of the world of books and meet people in a religion. It must be a personal experience and you must become part of a community because you cannot do this on your own. Eni: And you know that's full of challenges as well because then you have to say, how do I meet these people and are they legitimate? Are they going to cheat me? Is this community a good fit for me? You have to consider things like your physical proximity, because if you're like my ocha community is in Cuba and when I made ocha there, I had to decide, am I going to be able to go back to Cuba on a regular basis? Do I have the money to be able to travel? Does my job allow me to go there whenever I want? Eni: You have to really think about these things because if you don't live near your ocha community, you've got to travel. You know that. You also have to think about the language and the culture, and this just completely confuses me. I hear about people who go to Cuba, they don't speak Spanish, they know nothing about Cuban culture. They make ocha, they're there for a week and they go home and then they say, "I don't have a good relationship with my godparent". I'm like,"well, who is your godparent"? "I don't know. Some guy that lives in Havana." Eni: If you don't speak the language, if you don't know the culture, how can you fit in that community? How can you learn anything? And like you mentioned, you also have to consider a character there of the people. Are they upright people? Are they honest people? Do they have good reputations in the community? I've been talking just about the Lukumi practice, which is my practice. But for a lot of people who are at the very early stages, they have to decide what branch of this religion do they want. A lot of people want traditional Yoruba and they want to know about those practices in Nigeria. I don't know about that. I can't teach you that. I'm Lukumi. Andrew: Well I think that's also a whole other branch, right? But the problem remains the same. You and I would likely have equal ... we'd be next to ground zero by just dropping into Nigeria or wherever. I'm just going to go hang out with some traditional people. It's a roll of the dice. Right. You just never, hopefully it's good, but you never know given that every other day I'm befriended on Instagram by a Nigerian Prince wants to help remove the curses on me if I'll just send them a bunch of money by wire transfer. That stuff is out there, it's everywhere. Eni: And not only that, but our actual ceremonies are different and we have the same basic route. But, I only know how to do ocha ceremonies in Cuba and if I went to Nigeria, I'm sure they do it differently. I can't just walk in there as a functioning priest and expect to be accepted in this community because I don't know anything about them and they don't know anything about me. Before you waste time reading a million books on Lucumi, and then you decide I don't really like Lucumi, I want to be a traditional Yoruba. Make that decision first I think. And focus on what resonates with you. Andrew: I think one of the other things that I would say if you're reading books and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well, is the more a book on Orisha tradition talks about what you could do or should do on your own, the more likely I am to think that it's not helpful at all. There are some folks that there where they're like, do this super power Orisha bath and it's like, well, probably not right? These things come from, ideally come from, divination or they come from the ashy of an elder who speaks of where they come from. You know, an Orisha possession.And they don't come from, "huh, I really wish that this was different, maybe I should do this thing", right? Eni: I honestly don't think a reputable priest would write a book like that. I'm sorry, that probably sounds really harsh. But the books that I value ... Andrew: Please, feel free to be harsh, that's fine. Eni: The books that I value are written either from a historical perspective, maybe I'm just a history buff. But that really, really helped me to understand how this religion came to Cuba and how it transformed and who are founding mothers and fathers were and how the religion spread. And having a historical foundation, to me, has just been so valuable. That really helped me. Eni: And I also like books, like the most recent series that Willie is doing where there's a whole book that's just about, Oshun and another book that's all about Obatala and he talks about, these are the songs and these are the prayers, and these are the herbs, and these are the characteristics of Oshun and these are the different roads. That's great. Because it gives you more profound insight into who that Orisha is. But it ... I never ever have found a book helpful that starts telling you, "okay, you're not initiated but you can still throw the shells and learn how to read them and do these spiritual baths and make up all this stuff. And you don't need a priest and you don't need to be initiated". If I see that, I throw that book in the garbage. Andrew: Yeah, that's totally fair. I think one of the things I think is also significant and understanding tradition is one of the things about understanding initiation, especially, well even becoming, just taking on somebody, becoming someone's godparents, you're becoming part of, in a way that lineage, right? That lineage is tied to those people and to those places. My lineage goes back to Mantanzas and when I was there with my godfather, he took me to meet certain people and certain Orishas who are close to the sort of origin of that. And there's this living legacy of those connections from me to my godparents, to their godparents and so on, all the way back to the beginning of this tradition as it stands now in Cuba and then beyond into sort of the, the reaches of history. And that's really significant. That's a really important part of this tradition because without that lineage, in some ways nothing happens, right? Like what happens without that. Eni: That's exactly how I feel. I feel so grateful to be able to go to a place like Palmira and [inaudible 00:37:22] when you go to Mantanzas, same thing, it's like you have a very clear sense of this is where it comes from. I'm connected to this and it gives you such a grounding that it ... I don't even know how to explain it, but it's just really powerful. And I want to connect to something that you said earlier because when you were talking about somebody just contacting you out of the blue and saying, I want you to be my godfather, or please initiate me immediately. Here's the money. I think it's important that people understand that priests have to be selective about who they choose to initiate because it's a big responsibility. Like you said, it's a lifelong commitment. Eni: And if I don't know you and you turn out to be a crazy person, I'm bringing you into my religious family. I'm bringing you into my house and you're going to disrupt everything and make everybody miserable and cause trouble. I don't want that. There really is this kind of trial period and a lot of people who want an immediate access are so put off by that. They'll say, "I went to somebody's house and I asked them to be my godfather and he said, no". Well that's because he doesn't know you and it's premature and it's like you said, why do you need to be talking about making ocha right now? There's nothing to indicate you need that. So this idea that priests should be available 24/7 and a lot of people think "Oh, our religious communities or our centers or wherever we do our ceremonies. They imagine it like some kind of community center or maybe a Christian Church where there's this physical building and there's a little office attached and the priest gets paid a salary and sits there 9:00 to 5:00 and receives people. Eni: And to my knowledge, I have never seen anything like that in our religion. We do our ceremonies in our homes most of the time. And I'm not going to invite a stranger into my home. It's my home. That can really be off putting to people who are new to the religion, but they need to understand that you have to gain someone's trust. They just think they're protecting themselves. Like, "how do I know my Godfather's not a crook and he's cheating me"? Well, that is a concern. You need to know that. But at the same time, the godparent is looking at the potential godchild saying, "is this person a good fit? Do I want to do something with this person"? And people don't like to be judged. They think, here's the money, take it, give it to me. Andrew: No, for sure. I think it's kind of like asking somebody to marry you on the first date. It doesn't make sense. And if the person agrees, well, 99% of the time you should be really suspect about that because that person's got some issues. Go deal with those issues, right? Eni: Exactly. Or it could be like "we have never met, we just know each other from Facebook. Do you want to get married"? Andrew: It's such an interesting modern phenomenon. Right? Eni: Yeah. And another thing that's connected to this that I think is really difficult for newcomers or people who are looking for the way in, is they don't understand that some knowledge in our religion is only meant for priests. It's not open library, here's all the information in the whole world that anyone can access. Traditionally it's been passed by oral communication from generation to generation. You learn it from your elders, you learn it from hands on experience, some information you simply cannot know before you've been through the ceremony yourself. So when somebody comes with a million questions and the potential godparent is saying, "I can't tell you about her. That's not for you to know", Or "that's something only priests do". People get offended by that and think, "Oh, it's secretive they won't share their knowledge". Andrew: I think it's one of those things, and also depending on what we're talking about, I think it's fair for people to ... for the keepers of the tradition to honor the tradition by managing where that information goes. And if they think you're going to be online telling all your friends about this and that and making orisha baths and selling them on the internet when you're not even initiated or whatever, then probably they're going to hold that back as well. There needs to be the evidence of respect over time. Eni: Yeah, for sure. Going back to my little tip sheet though, after the recommendation of get to know people in the religion, sometimes people don't even know how to do that because they say, "where I live there isn't anywhere, It's not visible or I can't find it". So sometimes you have to start with just a wild goose chase in a sense that you might look for some public events that are advertised maybe on Facebook or in your community. Somehow you might look for like a tribute to Oshun at the river that's going to happen on such and such a date and everybody's invited. You make a point to go to that and you can meet some people. Or maybe if you get invited by somebody you know to an ocho birthday party or a drumming, definitely take advantage of those kinds of invitations that come your way. Eni: If you don't know anybody in the religion who could invite you to something, you could even just start with universities in your city or cultural centers, because a lot of times they'll have performances of some kind that's related to Afro-Cuban culture and there might be dance ... Orisha dancing or there might be drumming as performance. There might be lectures, films, scholars who work on that topic. And that's a place that you can meet people. If you just go to the performance or the dance, you might meet somebody who would then invite you to something. So I think that's a pretty safe way to do it if you can find something like that to attend and just keep going. You're going to see the same people showing up and you'll start talking to them, they'll start talking to you. That's a good way to meet people. Eni: Botanicas, a lot of people will say, "Oh, I went to the botanica and I met somebody". I think that can be good. There are some good botanicals, but there are also some shady ones. Andrew: So many shady ones. Eni: Yeah, so many shady ones you have to be really, really careful. You can't just walk into a botanica and assume that the person behind cash register is an orisha, maybe they're not. You can't just go in there and buy a bunch of stuff and ... be very, very careful about the botanicas. It's possible you could meet somebody legitimate there, but it's very likely you're going to meet as a person who wants to scam you. Andrew: The thing is, because I run a store, right? It's not a botanica the sort of sense that it focuses on orisha stuff in that sense. But it's not that dissimilar either. I sell candles and herbs as well as a bunch of other stuff. But I think that that's where also ... do some reading and know what it's really about, and what things are and so on, that you can ask the person some questions and see what happens. Andrew: There was a time where I sold more orisha specific stuff and people would come in and they'd start asking me questions, who were initiates and then they quickly realize, "Oh yeah, okay, this guy's an initiate, he knows what's going on". You could have a certain conversation about stuff and that doesn't need to mean that you need to be an initiate to know about that. But you could be like, "Oh well, where were your initiatives? Who are you an initiatives? What's your lineage? What's your orisha?" or whatever things that can come up and you can gauge things from that person that way and sort of feel them out a little bit. Eni: Absolutely. And by all means, don't walk into a botanica with a wad of money in your hand and say, "I want to get initiated". That's not going to work out well. Or they'll say, "my uncle can initiate you, step in the back room". Go ahead. Sadly that has happened so you have to be careful. Eni: I think social media is similar in a sense that you can be on these religious forums and you can meet some great people on social media. I met you on social media. There are definitely some good connections to be made on social media, but you have to be so careful and don't just put out there, "Hey, I'm looking for a godparent who wants to initiate me". There are also charlatans on social media. You don't know who's who's going to grab you. So for me, the most reliable starting point, Sooner or later you've got to get to a point or you can go get a reading, a consulta. And by that I mean by an orisha or by a babalawo who will use the traditional divination tools of orisha to tell you what's going on with you. I have nothing against taro cards and psychic readings and all these other things. But that's not how you find out what's going on with oricha. Andrew: Exactly. I've created and made an orisha tarot deck that is not for marketing orisha things. It is for exploring and understanding the philosophies and the ideas. Exploring how some of these worldviews overlap in the worldviews of tarot. But if you go and somebody says, Oh yeah, "[inaudible 00:47:51], your Orisha with my taro deck". You should get up and leave maybe even ask for your money back, because it's not what it's for. It doesn't work that way. Eni: I think that finding a good diviner is so crucial. That's to me, a turning point because if you can find a good, reliable, honest diviner, that person is going to be able to guide you. Even if that person doesn't turn out to be your godparent, that person is going to be able to hook you up with the right people if they're a member in good standing and in their Orisha community. I think that having these kind of warning signs to look out for, that's very important. You need to go understanding that if you sit down with a diviner, you've never been there before, the first thing he says is, "Oh my God, something really horrible, your children are all going to die unless you make ocho right now". If somebody starts pressuring you like that and trying to manipulate you and make you be really afraid and you have to be initiated right now, that's a warning sign to me. Andrew: One of the things I think that people ... in life there's not always solutions. But one of the things that I understand now at this point in my journey is I've been through some very hard stuff. Last year my business burned to the ground. It's not easy, life isn't always easy. But when I got a reading about that with my elder, it was so comforting. Even though there's a ton of hard stuff still in front of me, and there are ways of which we can approach difficulties and there are ways in which we can make a bowl, do little ceremonies and offerings or whatever, to make our situation better for almost every situation. And it's one of the things that I think is fascinating and different is that there's not ... sometimes there's a miraculous transformation. Andrew: Sometimes there's something you do and it just turns everything around. But there's always something to do, even in difficult times. Approaching it with fear or putting fear into the other person's heart, it's one of the worst things that I think people could do. Divination should come with solutions as well. Advice to mitigate it. And even if it comes we have this sort of orientation where it comes Okinawa, where it comes ... what you brought from heaven. Meaning you can't change it. But we can use it. You can find ways to mitigate your suffering. You can find ways to fortify your strength. There are solutions. If people are working to make you afraid, it makes me so mad when that happens. So, don't fall for it. Eni: And the solution doesn't have to cost $2,000 all the time. There are lots of solutions that are much less expensive. We always just start out with fresh water, omi tutu and coconuts and fruit and things like that. And a lot of times a simple abo an [inaudible 00:51:13], prepare some rice pudding or [inaudible 00:51:15] or whatever it doesn't have to be $2,000. Eni: I think that if people get to the point where they can find a good divine and rely on that information and understand the process of divination and what it's for, that is definitely going to put them on the path they need to be on. Because as we said at the very beginning, not everybody needs to be initiated. If your life is fine and you don't need to get X, Y, or Z, you don't need it, you're fine the way you are. And you don't need to go into the religion thinking, "I'm going to acquire ... I want to have 30 ori shots and I want to have the fanciest soperas and beautiful decorations. That's great, but that doesn't make you a more devoted orisha worshiper than the poor, simple Cuban who's just got his Orishas in a little clay pot. Andrew: I remember talking to this person and they gave all their money to buying things for their Orishas. And they're like, "well, the orisha is going to give it back to me twice as much". But then they were always broke because they were always spending all the money they got on ... You know and at a certain point you have to be mindful of the realities of these dynamics and even if the Orishas did reciprocate one of their offerings with double the amount of investment or they were so happy they blessed them, that's great. But then when you take that blessing and you turn it ... and you don't put it to use in the way it's intended. That's not helpful either. Eni: It's not all about material wealth either, because we have to remember that this religion came from, for the most part, very poor people. People in Cuba, the old people, a lot of times they didn't have anything. If they could go out and buy one apple to give to Chango on their Orisha birthday, that represented a big sacrifice. That's all they could do. They weren't going to go get a loan to buy something better, but they spent their money buying that apple for Chango and they gave it with love and they spent the whole day sitting there with Chango and praying and singing and receiving friends and godchildren. Those people are incredibly blessed even though materially they're poor, they have a really rich spiritual life. And for the most part they have long life, good health and they would say that their life is going well. Even though from our perspective it's like, "Oh my gosh, you don't have anything, you're so poor". They have what they need. Andrew: I think that it's funny because people have often a very strong reaction to the financial part of the religion, that we have to pay money for these things to happen. And I get it, it's not always easy, it can be a lot of money, especially in North America. I mean really anywhere, any Cubans, a lot of money for people who are in Cuba. Also, it's not just people ... I almost want to say their, despite the way in which money plays such a significant role in the tradition, so many of them are less capitalists than a lot of people are They're less caught up in that consumerism. And so they are way more content with doing things and being a part of things and showing up. Eni: There are lots of different ways to make sacrifice. You can sacrifice your time, you can give your attention, your love. There are many, many ways to show devotion. It doesn't have to all be about money. Andrew: Exactly. Do you have anything else on your list there? Eni: I have a little summary. Andrew: Okay let's hear it. Eni: We've talked for a long time here, it's been really interesting. But first of all, I guess I want to stress that there's only so much that you can do alone. This is not a religion that you can practice all by yourself. There's no such thing, in my opinion, as self initiation. I really don't like it when people just appropriate and steal little parts of our religion and say, "well I don't like that other part. I'm not going to do that, but I like this little part, I'm going to do this". No, you're either in it or you're not in it. And if you're in it, it means you follow the tradition and the rules of your house. You have to show respect that way in my opinion. Andrew: I want to add to that point, I live in Toronto. There are a few other people in the area, but pretty much everybody here travels to do anything of any consequence. There are no Ochas happening in Toronto, there are no whatever. What it means to, even for me, who has dedicated a lot of time to study and to try to learn the tradition and so on. There's so much that you can only learn by watching somebody do it. And whether that's how you peel the stem out of a leaf or whether that's how you put things together in a certain way. There's all this knowledge that it's just deeply practical that nobody would ever even think to explain to you because you would just see it by being in the room. But when you're not in the room and you're reading about these things, you can learn a bunch of stuff, but still doesn't mean that you know how to do anything, which is a really, I think, important distinction to understand. Eni: Oh, absolutely. That was one of my points as well, that if you're geographically isolated from a large Orisha community, you are definitely going to have to either travel a lot or move. I feel so bad for people who say "I live somewhere in the middle of Nebraska and I want to be initiated". Well unless they moved, I don't think that's going to happen unless they can travel a lot. You have to be practical. Some people live in these isolated communities where there is no Orisha community and if they can't travel and can't go anywhere and can never participate in anything, there's definitely a limit to how far they can go or what they can do. Y Eni: You do have to be proactive like we talked about, you have to get out there and look for opportunities and connections, but at the same time you have to be really careful that you don't fall into the wrong hands and you have to be patient as things happen in their own way. Sooner or later at some point you're going to need a mentor. And usually that turns out to be a godparent who can lead you along. You can only go so far on your own. Eni: My final point, and the one that is the most important that I say over and over again, is you just have to have faith that if it's meant to happen, it will happen in the way it's meant to happen and you can't control the process. Andrew: Absolutely. I think that is a great summary and maybe that's a great place to wrap it up. For people who want to follow along more with what you're doing, how do they connect? Remind us of your websites and how do they connect with your new Facebook project as well? Eni: My website is www dot about Santeria, all one word and no capital letters aboutsanteria.com. www dot about Santeria dot com. If people go to that website, there's a little button, click here to contact me, and you can write to me and I'll write back. Or you can go on Facebook and we have the About Santeria page where people can find connections on Facebook to what's on a website. And there's also the About Santeria community forum and that's open to aleyos, non initiates as well as priests and the Lucumi. I'm keeping a focus on Lucumi because I'm not qualified to talk about traditional Yoruba and I want the focus to be on Lucumi. Andrew: Perfect. All right, well thank you so much, Eni for making time to be here. We've been talking about it for a while and I'm really glad that we finally got our time zones coordinated and made everything happen. Eni: Thank you for the invitation. I really enjoyed the conversation. Andrew: Oh, it's my pleasure.