Not Simple

What if divorce could be a path to healing, rather than harm? In this conversation, attorney Nanci Smith offers a window into the world of collaborative divorce—a non-adversarial approach designed to help families navigate separation with dignity, empathy, and support. Drawing on over 30 years of experience and themes from her book Untangling Your Marriage: A Guide to Collaborative Divorce, we explore why divorce is more than just a legal process- it's a life transition that deserves the same care and recognition as any other major rite of passage. This episode invites listeners to reimagine what divorce can look like when conflict gives way to collaboration.  A link to Nanci's website is here: https://nancismithlaw.com/

Mark is a trauma-informed coach with roots in somatics, development, and mindfulness. He is also a trained teacher of Mindful Self-Compassion and believes how we talk to ourselves is more than just a way to feel better. It's also instrumental to our growth as leaders in a complex world. He came to Not Simple to discuss what we get wrong about self-compassion, as well as how it can improve our lives. Learn more about the course Mark and Rebecca are leading here. And use the code MSC50 for 50% off.

Cathy Carroll is the granddaughter of an entrepreneur who led a Fortune 500 company and the daughter of an entrepreneur. She led a turnaround of her father's manufacturing business and encountered the distinctions between leadership in a corporate domain and leadership in a family business. She founded Legacy Onward, Inc. to support family business leaders through the complexities of family business leadership. Her book Hug of War: How to Lead a Family Business with both Love and Logic is out now. Rebecca and Cathy discussed the complexities of leadership in family businesses, with Cathy sharing her insights from her experience leading her father's business and her book, "Hug of War, How to Lead a Family Business with both Love and Logic." They explored the concept of 'hug of war' and the importance of balancing the business and family mindsets in a family business. The conversation also touched on the concept of integrating opposing mindsets, the role of shadow influencers, and the challenges of leadership and ownership succession in family businesses. Mentioned in the podcast: Navigating Polarities with Andiron

"Societal change requires movements and networks of organizations working together—but what if the way we work together could be even better? Could it lead to greater freedom for our leaders and more realistic expectations? ... No one person holds the answer, but when the right people come together, we just might find a better one." Robin Katcher is a colleague at Cultivating Leadership and has spent the past 25 years supporting justice organizations, leaders, and networks as a faciliatior, consultant, and a coach. She and Rebecca discuss how leaders from across different organizations come together across differences to accomplish tasks and win gains that they couldn't on their own and how that affects their leadership.  

"How do you experience rest while doing what you love? What if we could even experience a sense of relaxed focus while hosting a party for 20?"  In our latest podcast episode, we dive deep into the art of grounded leadership with Dr. Jaime Lee, a fellow CL colleague. Jaime believes that true leadership starts with connecting to our health and the innate intelligence of our bodies. She expertly guides her clients and teams through the intricate balance of work, life, health, and relationships, helping them reclaim their sovereignty, alignment, and wholeness for a more effortless flow.  Jaime explores how we can cultivate rest daily, even while hosting a party or pursuing our passions. She challenges the traditional view of self-care, suggesting that instead of fixing deficiencies, we can embrace self-acceptance and see that we already have everything we need. Discover how making time your friend and putting "breathe" on your to-do list can transform your life, allowing you to be more generous with yourself and more trusting of the world in this latest podcast hosted by Rebecca Scott.   

“So it's not that our brain constrains the activities we can engage in and the behaviors that we have. It's the other way around. The behaviors we engage in change the brain we have.” Dr. Victoria Leavitt is an assistant professor of neuropsychology at Columbia University who studies brain resilience, brain reserve, and cognitive reserve, companion theories that help us understand individual differences in our ability to maintain brain function over the lifespan. She and Rebecca discuss the arc of evolution, the effect biologial dictates have on our brains, the challenges of thinking about difference, and the promise (and limits) of precision medicine.   Mentioned in this episode: E. O. Wilson  Human Genome Project Dr. Leavitt's research on sex difference: https://pubmed-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxy.cul.columbia.edu/38718749/ Leavitt VM, Dworkin JD, Kalina T, Ratzan AS. Sex differences in brain resilience of individuals with multiple sclerosis. Mult Scler Relat Disord. 2024 May 1;87:105646. doi: 10.1016/j.msard.2024.105646. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 38718749. https://pubmed-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxy.cul.columbia.edu/38452646/ Leavitt VM, Dworkin JD, Galioto R, Ratzan AS. Disparities in DMT treatment: Demographic and neurocognitive differences between MS patients currently treated versus not treated with disease-modifying therapies. Mult Scler Relat Disord. 2024 May;85:105508. doi: 10.1016/j.msard.2024.105508. Epub 2024 Feb 22. PMID: 38452646.

“In addition to it being small moves, I would say consistent moves. What are those consistent practices help that create the conditions for impact?” CL colleague Barry Bales thinks of leadership as an action rather than a title, and he knows that sometimes the most effective actions are small ones. He and Wendy discuss the importance of connection and engagement, as well as the small moves they've seen have big impact.   Mentioned in this episode: Matthew Lieberman Adam Kahane

“It's like our mind wants to categorize things, and it's much easier to feel pity than trying to embrace the complexity that life goes on and you can live in the midst of war.” Elena Tochilina is a Ukrainian coach and consultant as well as a colleague at Cultivating Leadership. In this conversation she challenges Wendy, and all of us, to step away from pity and see life in the midst of war as changing, evolving, and composed of not just pain but also beauty. Mentioned in this episode: The Decameron by Giovanni Boccaccio

“I care about supporting people more as wayfinders and what it might take to ditch the maps and find your own way—and keep learning and growing.” CL colleague Fred Jones is a lover and collector of questions that he stays with a long time. One of those questions: how do you help people create time and space for reflection in periods of transition, those moments of “meanwhile” where what's next isn't obvious? Join Fred and Wendy as they explore the questions this question inspires that might help in these mapless moments.   Mentioned in this episode: Parker Palmer Designing Your Life Learn more about Fred and his work at meanwhile.studio.

“It matters how we feel because how we feel and how we're doing impocts everyone.” 

TV has taught us that doctors are sexy, mysterious superheroes, but what is really happening at the other end of the stethoscope is more complex than we realize. Rehema Kutua, a pediatrician and certified coach, came to Not Simple to discuss what it feels like to be a primary care physician today and what happens when we see the human behind the title.

“There's a deep sense of letting go, of surrendering so they can open up into a new possibility for themselves, whether it's becoming a coach or becoming a senior leader or leading in a new way.”     We all know changing behaviors and habits is hard, but our language around it often “just” oversimplifies it. Bill Pullen brings his experience as a person in recovery, a coach, and a teacher of coaches to this thoughtful conversation that covers adult development, the importance of connection, and the slow and beautiful process of emergence. Mentioned in this episode: Adult Development The Concept of the Third Read more of Bill's thoughts on change on the Cultivating Leadership blog.

"Carolyn and I got excited about the question of how does your body know how to handle complexity in ways that are exciting and useful and even joyful—and how can you amplify that?" Wendy is back in the host's chair, talking to her longtime friends and colleagues about their book, Unleash Your Complexity Genius: Growing Your Inner Capacity to Lead. They cover action urges, the power of noticing, and the genius of breath, dance, and laughter.

"What we're seeing as we start to humanise organizations is this acknowledgment that actually leadership exists within everyone." Leanne Holdsworth and Naryan Wong recently led their Cultivating Leadership colleagues in a research and writing project that resulted in the book Human Work: Five Leadership Mindsets for Humanising Workplaces. They share those mindsets with Rebecca and discuss the ripples unleashed when work is truly human. Their book is available now. Learn more and connect with The Human Work Network here.    

"I think we do ourselves such a disservice to not acknowledge that iterative process, to just pretend that it's yes/no, black/white. It's never been the world we live in, but it certainly isn't now." Jarel LaPan Hill, the former city manager of the City of Santa Fe, NM, shares the complexity lessons learned managing an organization through Covid and how we might carry them forward.

“I spent two decades writing prescriptions… and it occurred to me that what determined somebody's health was really what they were doing between visits.”

 Dr. Eileen O'Grady is a nurse practitioner, a wellness coach, and the author of Choosing Wellness: Unconventional Wisdom for the Overwhelmed, the Discouraged, the Addicted, the Fearful, or the Stuck. She joined Rebecca and Diana to discuss often overlooked facets of well-being like setting boundaries, parenting, and dealing with difficult people.

“We tend to think if we send teachers off to a two day workshop magically they'll come back to the classroom and be able to do something different that will impact the lives of children.” Dr. Jennie Snyder, deputy superintendent for instructional services for the Sonoma County Office of Education and longtime educator, talks to Wendy about enacting change in education and the difference made by approaching things with a spirit of experimentation and curiosity.

"There is so much emergent change that's happening around us, so we need every piece of this human condition to be able to be okay and to thrive and to be resilient." Dr. Ciela Hartanov is the founder of humcollective, and her book, Reclaiming Sensitivity, will be out in the new year. She and Wendy discuss how we have oversimplified the idea of sensitivity and what we may gain by embracing it in all of its complexity and messiness.

“We try to help people ask additional questions, to say ‘How might I work differently than Wendy and how can I take a couple of steps to be closer to where she is so that our differences can be strengths?'” Parker Mitchell is the founder of Valence, a software company specializing in building stronger teams. He joined Wendy to talk about teamwork—especially how to help individuals work with a wider diversity of styles and approaches.

“The world doesn't allow a lot of room for messiness these days, as messy as the world is.” Sarah Dasher is a communications professional, a college professor, and a person living in recovery. She and Rebecca talk about the dual issues of stigma and disclosure for people in recovery—and living with chronic illness.

"Every moment in my life where I've learned some massive truth or had some big epiphany has always been in some small group or coffee shop experience. Human connection is ridiculously important to me." TJ Fairchild, founder and CEO of Commonplace Coffee, has a mission to create environments that foster human connection. He and Wendy discuss the many things that go into running a successful, purposeful business.

“The world demands that all leaders be inclusive leaders. If we're not leading inclusively, we're really not leading in some crucial dimension.” Not Simple welcomed Cultivating Leadership colleague and founder of Flourishing Gays Dominic Longo to discuss how organizations compartmentalize leadership development and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion efforts and to consider what happens when individuals step fully into who they are as humans and leaders.

“I see democracy as a reflection of and a demonstration of how much we value each other as human beings. And in that light, it is very relational. It is very interdependent.” Not Simple welcomes back Greg Thomas and Jewel Kinch-Thomas of The Jazz Leadership Project and executive coach Amiel Handelsman to talk about all the things democracy entails beyond voting. Learn more about their upcoming course, Stepping Up - Wrestling with America's Past, Reimagining Its Future, Healing Together here.

“As women, when you carry a daughter, you're also carrying your grandchildren… so having a quality experience of pregnancy will impact two generations down the line.” Kerry Arabena is the Managing Director of First 1000 Days Australia, which focuses on a child's first 1000 days, from preconception to age two, as a way of strengthening Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families. She came to Not Simple with infectious joy and an abundance of complexities, including modern matriarchy, intergenerational trauma, the undervalued role of men in families, and so much more.

“You don't always know exactly what to expect, but you know that everyone is bringing their best to that moment and so then what is created is something that is reflective of all of those bests coming together." Jewel Kinch-Thomas and Greg Thomas are the co-founders of the Jazz Leadership Project, which uses the principles and practices of jazz to help companies and individuals work better. They're tired of people minimizing jazz's importance with phrases like "Jazz is just... " and spend their half hour with Wendy uncovering the many, many things jazz is and does.

“We are the largest incarcerator in the world. That is our response to everything. I think it is the place where we cannot afford to oversimplify anymore.” Monica Hopkins is the executive director of the ACLU of the District of Columbia, and she came to Not Simple to talk about the US criminal justice system. What unfolded was a conversation about culture clashes, unpacking our reactions to behavior we don't understand, and the value of knowing our neighbors.

“The more complex work that I've tried to do is to really dig into those unwanted identities… and say, ‘Well, is it really true that I'm a burden to others?'” Rachel Simmons, coach and author, stopped by to explore our oversimplified binary of capable/needy and why it's so hard to ask for help.

“Even that simplifies the process; it’s just a box and a name on a tree and then you pick up the phone and there’s a voice on the other end of it and it alters the landscape just a hair.” Tom Draffen is a retired Marine Corps air traffic controller and a coach/consultant. He joined Wendy to discuss the complexities of sealed records, discovered siblings, and what it means to have a both/and family.

“What we find is that there are three aspects of life that they are good at nurturing… performance or achievement, personal growth, and well-being.”

 Nicolai Tillisch is a colleague at Cultivating Leadership and the co-author of the best-selling book Return On Ambition. Here he introduces us to the seven frenemies, tools for goal-setting, and the many ways we oversimplify ambition.

“The problem with strategic planning in a pandemic is there are so many different elements in there that impact our ability to have student achievement, but we can’t lose sight of that goal.”

 Six months after she first spoke to Wendy about the complexities of reopening school during Covid, elementary and middle school principal Aletha Snowberger returns to update us on how things are going.

“I’m trying to say yes to the things that bring me more joy.” After a long hiatus, Not Simple is back with producer Rebecca Scott, a Leadership Coach and part of the Catalyst team at Cultivating Leadership, joining Wendy to unpack the complexities of setting boundaries.

“Public health is happening in communities, in neighborhoods, where you live, where you work, and there’s not really enough appreciation for that.” Epidemiologist April Carson joins Wendy to discuss public health and the complexity of getting people to listen to simple messages—especially during COVID.

“There’s something very powerful about the fact that we see ourselves in stories.” Ann Kowal Smith, CEO of Books@Work, returned to discuss Franz Kafka’s very short story “Poseidon” with Wendy and a few colleagues. Together they discover the leadership lessons and complexities within what is, at first glance, a quite simple story.

“There’s one race, the human race. There are cultural groups. There are differences in skin tones and facial features and body features, but these don’t dictate who we are.” Amiel Handelsman is an executive coach and writer, as well as a semi-retired podcaster. He joined Wendy to discuss the many ways we oversimplify racial identity in America. 

You can learn more about Amiel and his work on his website.

“This could be the year that Americans find out that their simple assumption that we do elections well or right will be forever destroyed.” Jerry Mayer is a professor of Political Science at George Mason University and a self-proclaimed obsessive about all things election-related. He joined Wendy ten days before Election Day in the US to discuss everything from the Electoral College to the overlooked implications of high voter turnout.

“The reality is that friendships are infinitely messier and nastier and deeper in all sorts of ways good and bad than just two people who like each other and get along and are nice to each other.” Susan MacDougall, an anthropologist at Cambridge University, joins Wendy to discuss the complexities of friendship, its history, how it has changed in Covid times, and how its rules vary across cultures.

"We’re also focused on your students’ needs, their emotional needs and well being first, before we teach them algebra and physical science." On the eve of a new school year, elementary and middle school principal Aletha Snowberger talks to Wendy about reopening school in a pandemic. From the logistics of getting kindergarteners to the correct classrooms when parents aren’t allowed in the building to teachers learning how to engage online with new students, complexities abound.

"Getting stuff done peacefully is what most people want most of the time, and so the challenge isn’t to get them to do it but to remove the obstacles to them doing so." Adam Kahane, a Director of Reos Partners and author of several books, including Collaborating with the Enemy, joins Wendy to discuss the complexity of collaboration.

“I want the doing and the learning to happen simultaneously. I don’t want you to say ‘I don’t know enough and therefore I can’t do anything.’” Wendy Moomaw, an executive coach and founder of the Conscious Collaboratory, and our host begin their conversation exploring our experience in the collective as the world changes around us and end up discussing what it takes for us as individuals to fight racism. Collective and individual, dominant and non-dominant, internal and external—polarities abound in this not simple discussion.

“What Books@Work has helped his team to do is separate the person from the idea.” Ann Kowal Smith is the Founder and Executive Director of Books@Work. She talks to Wendy about how using the lens of narrative fiction and non-fiction can supercharge collaboration and inclusion in the workplace.

“People in poverty, people with addiction problems … there are assumptions that those people actually don’t care for themselves and don’t care for their life or their health.” Stephanie Marrs is a nurse practitioner with a passion for public health. She joins Wendy to discuss how we oversimplify the choices people make about their health, which actually may not be choices at all.

“[It’s] like the elephant has been named. And it’s been claimed. And now we can do something with the elephant.” Wendy is joined by her Cultivating Leadership colleague Akasha, whose work focuses on engaging across difference, to talk about race in America and the Caribbean--and the ways we do and don’t talk about it.

“What we want to look for is those threads such as behavior that we can both use to forecast but also help seed--how do we help take that thing that we want to be true and help drive the market in that direction?” A year after she first appeared on the podcast, Elizabeth Mayo, Global Director of Solar Services at UL, returns to discuss how COVID-19 has changed risk in the energy industry and how those patterns translate to life in general.

“I’m thinking about this whole space the way poets think about a sonnet. There are specific constraints. Those constraints mean that most things are impossible, but an artist can figure out how to make great things happen inside the constraints.” Guest host Keith Johnston has an “in house chat” with our normal host Wendy Bittner and Jennifer Garvey Berger about the challenge of helping leaders to learn in a virtual world. They explore what they have learned and the surprising discoveries that have surfaced over the past two months.

“When emotions are so big, the quick fix is to be violent, use drugs, be aggressive, escape . . . because those feelings are dangerous. And for most of the guys they never learned how to experience that.” Wendy talks to Dr. Melissa Garber, a clinical psychologist helping violent offenders in a special treatment unit in New Zealand to prepare to re-enter society. They discuss noticing and reacting differently to emotions and environments--and how these challenges (and their solutions) are more universally human than they first appear.

"The really hard challenge when you’re talking about empowerment is it’s a fundamentally different conversation around the way that power is then distributed, the way that power is shared, and the way that power is exercised." Dean Parkin is a part of the Quandamooka people, an investment analyst with Tanarra Capital, and an advocate for the Uluru Statement from the Heart, which addresses the rights of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in Australia. He spoke to Wendy about the oversimplification of representation and empowerment of those who have been dispossessed.

"A reframing of what failure is, what it means, and the importance of it can completely transform the way a person understands themselves and the challenges in the middle of a complex situation." Denise VanEck is owner of Thought Design, author of Failure: Laboratory Workshops, a coach, and obsessed with failure. She and Wendy unpack this “juicy” topic and discuss how to better harness with this inevitable experience that our brains love but our egos hate.

“If we really want to build a web of trust it has to be built on human relationships.” Richard Whitt, a fellow at Georgetown University and the Mozilla Foundation and founder of the GLIAnet Project, talks to Wendy about human agency in the digital era, the impact of technology in our daily lives, and the uneasy compact we make when we blindly exchange our data for access to unlimited cat videos.

“It’s important to remember as adults that having been a student doesn’t make you an expert on teaching. You should be careful about your memories.” Katy Shrout, an 8th grade English teacher, sits down with Wendy to discuss the many layers of teacher responsibility, the pros and cons of standardized testing, policies and their unintended impacts, and a slew of other ways that education is not simple.

“We see restaurants and essentially the people in them as vending machines for our needs. We push buttons and we expect things to come out.” Chef Rock Harper, President of Rock Solid Creative and podcast host, works to empower, educate, and entertain chefs. He and Wendy discuss strategies to allow personal dignity and culinary excellence to coexist in the complex world of restaurants.

“That can also happen in the game! In whatever match it is, it can all be going one way, the momentum’s going, and then suddenly a small event--as in complex systems--tips the system . . . and suddenly the whole game is transformed.” Keith Johnston, co-founder of Cultivating Leadership, writer, and passionate fan of the All Blacks, and Wendy talk sport(s) as an echo for human life, a way to understand complexity, and a source of fun.

“What’s the gift in the now? It’s so easy to be thinking what’s the next thing, what’s the next thing, what’s the next thing.” Aenslee Tanner, engineer turned leadership coach, talks to Wendy, chemist turned leadership consultant, about how we oversimplify big life choices and what new questions we might ask to change our focus from choosing the right thing to embracing possibility.