Off-Trail Learning

Guest host Zen Zenith returns to interview Blake about his obsession with adventure. What exactly makes an adventure? How is adventure connected to self-directed learning? Is adventure just for privileged people? Why can't Blake just settle down and lead a normal life? How do Unschool Adventures trips create a sense of adventure for both teens and trip leaders? Does adventure become harder as one grows older? Does Blake even have a retirement plan?! And what comes next? Read Blake's “Notes on Adventure” here: https://blakeboles.substack.com Find Zen on Twitter: @zenzenith

Chris Balme (chrisbalme.com) is the founding head of school of The Millennium School and the author of Finding the Magic in Middle School. After briefly flirting with public school teaching, Chris ran an apprenticeship program for middle schoolers for a decade before creating The Millennium School in San Francisco, where he served for seven years. We discuss Chris' early infatuation with democratic free schools, how the Millennium School takes the developmental needs of middle schoolers seriously, the life-changing power of peer advisory groups, learning through quests, authentic audiences, and why he compromised on teaching math in a conventional fashion. Chris also describes how parents might think of themselves as excellent guides instead of their kids' bosses or managers, 50 "Essential Experiences” for a meaningful adolescence, rites of passage, and what larger schools and programs can offer that home-based alternatives sometimes cannot. Get a taste for Chris' work by browsing the 50 Essential Experiences (https://www.argonaut.school/blog/50-essential-experiences) and signing up for his excellent email newsletter (https://chrisbalme.substack.com/).

Liam Nilsen (https://liam.media) is a designer and educator based in Åårhus, Denmark. He's a former member of the LEGO Idea Studio, the founder of an Agile Learning Center, and a life-long unschooler who didn't start reading until age 9 — at which point he fell in love with the written word. Liam and I discuss our lives as readers, including the books that have changed our lives, how we discover new things to read, books vs. articles vs. newspapers vs. social media, old favorites that now embarrass us, writing inside books, and keeping books vs. giving them away. We also discuss the virtues of higher education and self-directed learning programs that promote reading (or not).

Grace Llewellyn is the author of The Teenage Liberation Handbook, the founder of Not Back to School Camp, a one-time middle school English teacher, and a luminary in the unschooling movement. In this episode we discuss the third (and final) edition of The Teenage Liberation Handbook, released in late 2021. Grace talks about writing the original book in 1991, how it became an underground classic, how her views on education (and her relationship to her 26-year-old voice) evolved over three decades, and how the book was updated for the 21st century. I had the pleasure and honor of serving as Grace's editor for this project, and we also discuss our differing visions for the re-write. (Spoiler alert: hers won!) Find a copy of The Teenage Liberation Handbook wherever books are sold or by requesting one from your local library (make sure to ask for the third edition). Grace is also the author of Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or Without School (2001, with Amy Silver), Real Lives: Eleven Teenagers Who Don't Go to School Tell Their Own Stories (2005), and Freedom Challenge: African American Homeschoolers (1996).

Takeru “TK” Nagayoshi was an AP English and Research teacher for seven years. In 2020 he was named Massachusetts Teacher of the Year—yet after winning the award, he decided to leave the classroom in 2021. We discuss Takeru's early school experiences in Japan and New Jersey, how he become an educator through Teach For America, the daily realities of teaching in a “turnaround school,” the amazing AP classes he offered, the Teacher of the Year nomination, pandemic burnout, and the decision to leave his teaching position. We also speak more broadly about the purpose of education, schooling's connection to societal inequities, why most reform movements don't speak to TK, how he aligns (and doesn't) with John Taylor Gatto's critiques, how Generation Z is disillusioned by adult's failure to solve collective action problems, and what kind of changes it would take to bring him back to the classroom. Takeru now works at Panorama Education (panoramaed.com) where he leads professional learning events that reach an audience of over 10,000. An education commentator and facilitator, he also leads workshops on education policy, social-emotional learning, DEI, and curriculum at the high school level. Find TK on Twitter (@tk_nagayoshi) and learn more with the following links: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/764/schools-out-forever https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2021/10/25/massachusetts-teacher-burn-out https://commonwealthmagazine.org/opinion/as-a-teacher-i-think-its-time-to-rethink-education-accountability/

Shortly after college, Jack Schott hit the road for two years to visit over 200 summer camps across the United States. He then co-founded a children's sleepaway camp in upstate New York, Camp Stomping Ground (campstompingground.org), designed to inspire “radical empathy.” After co-directing Stomping Ground for many years (with Laura Kriegel) and consulting for other camps, Jack possesses a wealth of knowledge about the power and possibility of sleepaway camps. We discuss the unique magic that camps create, what kind of camps exist in the United States, how they promote self-directed learning (or don't), accessibility and affordability, the vital role that camp counselors play in a young person's life, and Jack's personal favorites. Jack is also co-founder of The Summer Camp Society (thesummercampsociety.com), which offers training and consulting for camp leaders. To sign up for Not Back to School Camp, visit nbtsc.org. (Vermont campers: Enroll by April 30th!) Recorded on April 17, 2022, on the Camino de Santiago in Spain.

Nate Singer is the Managing Director of Mission Holdings, a father of two, and the guy who first got me interested in alternative education. We discuss his early struggles at boarding school, getting rejected to UC Berkeley (but successfully appealing the decision), working hard as a math major, second-guessing conventional teaching methods, creating a class about educational television (where he and I met), John Taylor Gatto, and encouraging Berkeley students to question mainstream pedagogy. After college Nate moved into the world of finance in a quest for broader impact and understanding the forces underpinning the school system. He talks about how he applied the self-directed learning ethos to investing, the importance of reaching out to strangers, why education is about “learning how to form and achieve a vision,” the irreplaceable value of entrepreneurial experiments, why to start a literal lemonade stand, and the challenges of raising kids in the San Francisco Bay Area. Nate's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nate-singer-0078952/ Recorded on Nov 22, 2021, in Lisbon, Portugal.

Michelle Bruce is a mother of 4 who (along with her husband John) has been “boatschooling” since 2013. We discuss the evolution of her eclectic homeschooling approach, the family's slow travel philosophy, the boat's life-support systems and operating expenses, her kids' “rollercoaster” social life, her impressions of the worldschooling community, what happened during the pandemic, and the judgment she received from other parents for raising her family at sea. Recorded on the boat in Sant Carles de la Rápita, Spain, Oct 31, 2021.

Seth Frey (enfascination.com) is a professor of Communication at UC Davis who focuses on the science of self-governance. We discuss our shared history in the Berkeley Student Cooperatives, Seth's experience living in communities ranging from 4 to 400 members, his research on Minecraft and World of Warcraft communities, why benevolent dictators are surprisingly common, why children (and adults!) are surprisingly bad at self-governance, the Lord of the Flies stereotype, and how we might grant young people more genuine opportunities to manage their own worlds. Learn more about the Unschool Adventures “Eurotrip 2022” teen program at unschooladventures.com. Apply by February 12th! Read more about the boarding school boys who were shipwrecked off Tonga in 1965 and successfully self-governed here: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

Manue is a representative in the South of France of Les Enfants D'Abord (lesenfantsdabord.org), a home education advocacy association which is particularly committed to the rights of unschoolers. (The name translates to “Children First.”) We discuss the organization's mission to promote children's rights over parental domination, the history of homeschooling regulation in France, home inspections, the growing power of French social services, and the new French homeschooling law that takes effect in 2022 and its purported mission to fight separatism.  Manue also explains what makes her hopeful for the future of French homeschooling and how listeners outside France can help their cause. (Note: If you are interested in helping French families, you may email domiciliation@protonmail.com.)  Read the document created by Les Enfants D'Abord which challenges the French laws here: https://bit.ly/les-enfants-dossier (French/English) Recorded on October 15, 2021, in Montpellier, France.

Nick Bergson-Shilcock is the CEO and co-founder of the Recurse Center (recurse.com), a self-directed and community-driven educational retreat for computer programmers. Nick describes his background as a lifelong unschooler (he's the son of Peter Bergson, a recent podcast guest), as well as his early interest in gaming and programming and his transition into college, career, and Y Combinator (the startup incubator). We discuss how RC differs from “coding bootcamps,” who applies, who gets in, how the whole thing is funded, RC's unique social rules (no well-actually's, no feigning surprise, no back-seat driving, and no subtle -isms), and Nick's evolving views on unschooling. Visit Nick's personal website at https://nick.is/ Recorded on July 20, 2021.

Anna Smith and Mara Donahoe are the co-founders (with Natasha Morisawa) of the National Association of Home & Hybrid Education (homeandhybrideducation.org), a new advocacy organization that hopes to bring together all members of the alternative education movement in the United States. We discuss why Home & Hybrid Education (HHE) was created, whether the U.S. needs another homeschool organization, how HHE differs from other large organizations (AERO, ASDE, HSLDA), and why public hybrid options deserve a seat at the table. I ask them what a massively successful HHE would look like in 10 years, why they're interested in the thankless task of building a politically centrist “big tent” organization, and how parents can get involved today. Anna and Mara are also co-founders of Urban Homeschoolers in Los Angeles, which you can learn more about at urbanhomeschoolers.com. Blake's new free audio workshop, How to Stay Motivated as a Self-Directed Learners, is available at blakeboles.com/motivation.

While biking through the south of France, I met Lilli and Elena, two 19-year-old German women who are also on a cycling adventure. (We shared the same Couchsurfing host.) We discuss their bike trip, their path through formal education in Germany, why they're taking a gap year, how they spend less than $10/day, how they stay safe, and what the trip has taught them so far.

Joel Malkoff (joelkmalkoffcircusartist.com) is a contemporary circus artist and 27-year-old grown unschooler from Indiana. We discuss Joel's recent experience at the National Circus School of Montreal (“the Harvard of circus”), the job market for circus artists, and his new 3-person circus collective, La Quadrature (instagram.com/laquadrature). We also talk about Joel's upbringing as an unschooler, his mother's influence, his childhood passions (skateboarding, parkour, guitar), his experiences at Not Back to School Camp, the difficulty of getting organized as a self-directed learner, the challenge of French immersion in Quebec, and how the pandemic affected his career. Recorded on August 1st, 2021.

Alfie Kohn (alfiekohn.org) is the author of fourteen books and a well-known advocate of progressive education. Mr. Kohn discusses the purpose behind his 30+ years of advocacy, his critique of “grit” and “growth mindset”, and his take on the classic progressive school models (Montessori/Waldorf/Reggio) as well as homeschooling, unschooling, and highly self-directed schools & centers. He expresses concern over the extreme varieties of self-directed education and argues for the vital role of teachers (and other actively-involved adults) in education. We end by identifying common ground between the self-directed and progressive education movements. The following articles are referenced in this interview: The Trouble with Pure Freedom (by Alfie Kohn): https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/trouble-pure-freedom/ The Progressive Teacher's Role in the Classroom (by Alfie Kohn): https://www.alfiekohn.org/blogs/paradox/ Rewards Are Still Bad News (25 Years Later) (by Alfie Kohn): https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/rewards-25-years-later/ Differences Between Self-Directed and Progressive Education (by Peter Gray): https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201706/differences-between-self-directed-and-progressive-education

Catherine Fraise is the founder of Workspace Education (workspaceeducation.org) and 100 Roads (100roads.org). We discuss Catherine's background as a Montessori educator, the pivotal trip to Japan she took as a 12-year-old, the Workspace co-learning and co-working center she created in Connecticut, and her newest venture, WorkspaceSky Teens: an online community for teenage self-directed learners. We touch on the trade-off between virtual and in-person communities, the logistical and financial challenges faced by would-be founders of alternative schools, and how the pandemic was a blessing in disguise for Catherine's trajectory as an innovator. She also pitches me on joining the WorkspaceSky team, right here on my own podcast :D

Peter Bergson is the co-founder of two self-directed learning centers in the Philadelphia area: Open Connections (openconnections.org) and Natural Creativity Center (naturalcreativity.org). We discuss Peter's journey from creativity consultant to early childhood educator, his collaboration with John Holt, fighting for better homeschooling laws in the 80s, growing a tiny self-directed learning center in a bigger and better-funded one, the importance of “sense of belonging” for young people, and his attempt to bring his ideas to inner-city Philadelphia. Peter stars in the 2020 documentary “Unschooled” (unschooledthemovement.com), which I highly recommend. The new center that his children have started is Cupola Academy (cupolaacademy.org).

Pat Farenga returns to talk about the second half of Harvard's “Post-Pandemic Future of Homeschooling” conference, after which we discuss a different, secret, *invite-only* Harvard summit (hosted by Elizabeth Bartholet and James Dwyer) that proposed extremely restrictive reforms to homeschooling laws. If you care about the future of homeschooling in the United States — and the reasons that some well-intentioned people may try to shut it down — don't miss this episode! Blake's notes from the Harvard Homeschool Summit are here: https://bit.ly/blake-cap-homeschool-conf-notes Recordings from the Post-Pandemic Future of Homeschooling conference are here: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/taubman/programs-research/pepg/events/future-homeschooling Patrick Farenga is the president and publisher of Growing Without Schooling magazine and the co-author (with John Holt) of Teach Your Own: The John Holt Book Of Homeschooling, which celebrates its 40th anniversary this year. Learn more about Pat and John at johnholtgws.com.

In this special two-part discussion, Pat Farenga and I discuss Harvard University’s ongoing 7-week conference, the “Post-Pandemic Future of Homeschooling.” This free online conference brings together researchers and academics in the field of homeschooling, and Pat and I are here to share what they’re talking about, the arguments they’re making, and what we think of all this. In this first episode we discuss weeks 1-4 of the conference: Should homeschooling laws change? Who is homeschooling today? Are homeschoolers prepared for life? And—are homeschoolers socially isolated? We get into some spicy discussions regarding homeschooling regulation, Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Bartholet’s ideas for protecting vulnerable children, the nature and limits of academic research, and political factions within the homeschool movement. Look forward to part two coming out later this month! Patrick Farenga is the president and publisher of Growing Without Schooling magazine and the co-author (with John Holt) of Teach Your Own: The John Holt Book Of Homeschooling, which celebrates its 40th anniversary this year. Learn more about Pat and John at johnholtgws.com. Recordings of the Harvard conference are here: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/taubman/programs-research/pepg/events/future-homeschooling More about the Connecticut study: https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/36-of-students-withdrawn-to-be-homeschooled-have-past-abuse-reports-connecticut-report-finds/

Debbie Reber (debbiereber.com) is the author of Differently Wired: Raising an Exceptional Child in a Conventional World and the founder of TiLT Parenting (tiltparenting.com), a podcast and online community. We discuss how Debbie coaches parents on issues of neurodivergence, the challenges that school systems present for “differently wired” kids, her response to the critics, what it was like raising her son in the Netherlands for 5 years, and how she ended up here in the first place. (Blake also makes some exciting announcements in the very beginning.) Originally recorded on March 29, 2021.

Olivia Barnes (blacklifeblueworld.wixsite.com/blbwofficialwebsite) has always had a somewhat unconventional education, but after a frustrating year at a well-regarded performing arts school, she decided to take the reins of her education. We discuss Olivia’s decision to spend her 10th grade year doing a hodgepodge of activities she called “self-design school”—including biology classes at a local university, online math, Spanish tutoring, and lots of swimming—what she’s doing now (despite the pandemic), what she would be doing if there were no pandemic, her concerns about college readiness, and three big questions that frame her ongoing self-education. Don’t miss Olivia’s YouTube channel (youtube.com/channel/UC-Nckrk9b4j_c74HrYK85GQ) and LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/olivia-barnes-59617a200/). A few more details: The school that Olivia attended in 8th grade was The Saint Constantine School, her math class was artofproblemsolving.com, and make sure to google “vaquitas”—they are adorable. This interview was recorded on February 18th, 2021. Love this podcast? Buy Blake a coffee! https://ko-fi.com/blakeboles

Rivers and bike trips and workshops, oh my! A quick update from my somewhat-successful-sabbatical. Also: new podcast episodes coming soon!

Off-Trail Learning is on hiatus! In this brief personal update, I discuss my decision to go on sabbatical in 2021. Learn more at blakeboles.com (newly redesigned) and wintersummercamp.com.

Kevin Currie-Knight (kevinck.net) is a philosopher, historian of education, and Teaching Associate Professor at East Carolina University’s College of Education. Following a stint as a high school special educator, Kevin began training future public school teachers at the college level and experimented with giving them high levels of autonomy. We discuss the results of Kevin’s experiments, his unique definition of “self-directed learning,” the benefits of letting students choose their own grades, the tension between learning and credentialing, why students cheat, and whether the Ph.D. model of learning could be applied at the high school level.  Kevin’s 2019 paper, “When College Students Direct Their Learning: How a College Professor Redesigned an Undergraduate Course in Education to Incorporate Self-Directed Learning”, can be found here: https://othereducation.org/index.php/OE/article/view/230

Martina Geromin is the CEO and Co-Founder of School Beyond Limitations (school-beyond-limitations.com). Originally from Italy, Martina has lived and worked in Austria, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom. We discuss the state of self-directed education in Europe (including homeschooling and alternative schools), cultural differences and institutional differences between the U.S. and Europe, and what differentiates progressive and holistic education from self-directed education.

Dr. Naomi Fisher is a clinical psychologist, mother of two self-directed learners, and the author of the forthcoming book, "Changing Our Minds: How children can take control of their own learning." In this deep-dive interview, Naomi and I dissect the modern culture of “intensive parenting” and the research behind Judith Rich Harris’ controversial book, "The Nurture Assumption." We address some thorny topics including: How much do genes, peers, and parents respectively matter for a child’s long-term development? What kinds of influence do parents actually possess? How much of the nature/nurture research is universally relevant? How does self-directed learning fit into the picture? And what’s the overlap between attachment parenting and intensive parenting? Don't miss Naomi's article in The Psychologist (https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-33/march-2020/schools-out. Her book, Changing Our Minds (https://www.littlebrown.co.uk/titles/naomi-fisher/changing-our-minds/9781472145505/), is now available for pre-order. To dive deeper into this fascinating and complicated subject, I recommend reading The Nurture Assumption (by Judith Rich Harris), Blueprint (by Robert Plomin), and Chapter 4 of my book, Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School?

Dev Carey is the founder and co-director of the High Desert Center in Paonia, Colorado (highdesertcenter.org), where he’s been offering an adventurous, affordable, and highly alternative gap year program for more than six years. We discuss his approach to working with 16- to 23-year-olds, the most common issues they face, and the lessons they learn through his 9-month program that combines communal living with high adventure. We conclude with the question of what parents can do to offer young adults a similar sense of adventure and connection in their lives at home.

Prisma (joinprisma.com) is a brand-new company that’s attempting to combine the best parts of homeschooling with the best parts of online education. In this episode I speak with Victoria Ransom, who co-founded Prisma alongside her husband Alain Chuard, about the Prisma model, who it’s for, how self-directed it is, why they don’t do grades or transcripts, and their vision for expanding Prisma into a global “co-learning network.”

What does it mean to educate in freedom? What are the different flavors of “freedom” that appear in the self-directed education world? In this live interview (recorded in January 2020) I speak with Alexander Khost, Editor-in-Chief of Tipping Points, the online magazine of The Alliance for Self-Directed Education, and a facilitator at Brooklyn Apple Academy. We discuss a controversial pair of articles he published in late 2019, addressing the topics of fear- versus trust-based education, the messy overlap between educational beliefs and political beliefs, and how this all plays out in the world of Sudbury schools, Agile Learning Centers, Liberated Learners centers, progressive schools, and unschooling. Links: Original article: https://www.self-directed.org/tp/misuse-of-words/ Follow-up article: https://www.self-directed.org/tp/education-is-a-political-act/ (the chart appears here) Forum discussion: https://www.self-directed.org/topic/sde-and-the-idea-that-education-is-a-political-act/

What’s it like to be someone who knows a little bit about everything? Or sometimes, a *lot* about everything? Ethan Mitchell (zemita.net) is a teacher and essayist who lives on a sheep farm in Vermont, attended just one semester of college, and writes an underground newsletter called the “Hebdromodary.” In this interview we talk about Ethan’s wide-ranging interests, self-directed learning path, numerous weird jobs, and views on unschooling. Sign up for Ethan’s newsletter: http://zemita.net/heb.htm Take his Learning Journeys survey: https://bit.ly/learning-journeys (submission deadline: September 15th).

If you have a kid who has been identified as academically gifted, is a self-directed learning center a good place for them? Kristen Montesano, co-founder of EPIC Life Learning Community in Dallas, Texas (epiclifelearningcommunity.com), grew up in public school gifted programs, yet she was still bored and unchallenged. In college she began volunteering at a democratic free school which soon inspired her to think about starting her own program. In this interview she explains how self-directed learning centers like EPIC have a special power to serve the needs of academically gifted kids, including issues of self-perception and self-worth. Find a related that Kristen wrote here: https://medium.com/@kristenmontesano/giftedness-in-self-directed-education-a1774ea1197a

In May 2020, Elizabeth Bartholet, a Harvard Law Professor, called for significant new regulations on homeschooling in the United States. In this extra-long episode, I interview Professor Bartholet about her ideas, research, and proposals. We are joined by Rachel Coleman, executive director of the Coalition for Responsible Home Education — and a grown homeschooler herself — who contributes a wealth of experience and impassioned arguments for increasing oversight of homeschooling. While all three of us have different visions of what “appropriate regulation” might be, we also find areas of agreement. Discussion topics include: Who homeschools in the U.S.? How prevalent is abuse and neglect? What is good and important about homeschooling? What’s the justification for increased regulation? Do bad schools inflict just as much (or more) harm on children than homeschooling? And what are the most essential legal changes that Bartholet and Coleman would each like to see enacted? Read more about Professor Bartholet’s perspectives in the original Arizona Law Review article (https://arizonalawreview.org/homeschooling-parent-rights-absolutism-vs-child-rights-to-education-protection/), the Harvard Magazine interview with her (https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/05/right-now-risks-homeschooling), and her interview with the Harvard Gazette (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/05/law-school-professor-says-there-may-be-a-dark-side-of-homeschooling/). Learn more about Rachel Coleman and the Coalition for Responsible Home Education at responsiblehomeschooling.org.

Many teachers aspire to work at progressive schools that are more kind, individualized, and humane. But what do you do when even the “best schools” still treat kids with distrust and coercion? Aaron Eden has asked this question over his long career in education, ultimately leading him to his current position as Executive Director at the Institute for Applied Tinkering (which oversees the Brightworks School in San Francisco). We discuss Aaron's journey away from techno-optimism, the subtle art of offering voluntary challenges to young people, the difficulty of deschooling, the pendulum-swing between "authoritarian" and "permissive" parenting, and his faith in the Brightworks School model. Learn more about Aaron and his work at edunautics.com and eliadgroup.com.

This special episode celebrates the release of Blake’s new book, Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School?, which is now available through local bookstores, Amazon.com, and other marketplaces. Joined by guest host Kevin Currie-Knight, Blake discusses how kids learn to work hard when given the freedom to self-direct, the nature of “intensive parenting,” the true value of a college degree, and how to avoid dogmatic thinking in education. Learn more about the book here: https://blakeboles.com/y/

James Dwyer is a professor of law at William & Mary Law School and the co-author of Homeschooling: The History & Philosophy of a Controversial Practice (University of Chicago Press, 2019). Following the arc of Jim’s excellent book (co-authored with historian Shawn Peters), we discuss some foundational questions related to homeschooling, such as: What is the state’s role in family affairs? To what extent are children their own people? What basic human goods does every young person deserve to access? And most interestingly, what is the proper way to regulate homeschooling in the United States? Professor Dwyer received his law degree from Yale Law School and a Ph.D. in political and moral philosophy from Stanford University. He teaches Family Law and Youth Law (among other subjects) and has authored a half dozen books and dozens of articles on child-welfare related topics.

17-year-old Zoe Greenhouse (zoegreenhouse.com) talks about her recent decision to stop going to school and attempt a thru-hike of the 2,650-mile Pacific Crest Trail (PCT). Zoe discusses her background as an unschooler and world-schooler, the handful of private and public schools she attended, her decision to leave school and spend 5+ months on the PCT, and how she has prepared for the journey. Zoe started her hike in March of 2020. Follow her progress on Instagram: @zoegreenhouse [Please pardon the sound quality—Zoe and I were each on the road, without proper recording equipment or reliable wi-fi.]

Maya Landers (mayalanders.com) is a 22-year-old lifelong unschooler from Austin, Texas, who always thought she would go to college to study English. Yet at 17 she opted to take a gap year… followed by another gap year… which turned into another gap year…. and yet another! We discuss Maya’s decision-making process regarding college, how she spent her gap years (doing a combination of writing, volunteering, working, and teaching English in China), how she built community, how she made it all work financially. We also touch on her plans for the future and her advice for other young adults considering a similar trajectory.

After teaching 6th grade reading at a tough school in Mississippi, Matthew Gioia discovered the Sudbury Valley School literature and quickly became enamored. Like many people (myself included) Sudbury represents an idyllic philosophy that leaves behind the baggage of conventional education. But how do the ideals match up with actual Sudbury schools? Matthew joins me to discuss the day-to-day realities of school governance, the justice system, motivation, staff-student relations, adult non-intervention, and preparing for life beyond school at the Hudson Valley Sudbury School (sudburyschool.com) where he has worked for seven years. [Apologies for the background noise on Matthew's end, it was due to a hyperactive laptop fan!]

Kerry McDonald (fee.org/kerry) is the author of the 2019 book, Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom, as well as a regular contributor to Forbes, the Cato Institute, and the Foundation for Economic Education. We discuss Kerry’s faith in the private sector to nurture innovative education models, what sets her book apart from others, her path through Harvard Graduate School of Education, her role in founding the Alliance for Self-Directed Education, and her mysterious new ed-tech business. (Update: not so mysterious any more! Visit https://unschool.school) Kerry has four children, all of whom are unschooled, and three of whom regularly attend a hackerspace/makerspace in Boston.

Gina Riley, Ph.D., is an educational psychologist and Clinical Professor of Adolescent Special Education at Hunter College in New York City. She's also the leading researcher on the connection between unschooling and Self-Determination Theory. Gina discusses the three factors that generate intrinsic motivation (competence, autonomy, and relatedness), why kids like extracurriculars more than school, the many parenting styles associated with unschooling, how to support a kid’s autonomy (even when you don’t like what they do with it), and how learning disabilities coexist with unschooling. Find all of Gina’s work at http://hunter-cuny.academia.edu/ginariley.

Ken Danford is the Executive Director of North Star (northstarteens.org), author of the new book "Learning is Natural, School is Optional", and the first guest to ever appear on this podcast. In this episode we discuss the Liberated Learners network through which Ken helps other people start centers similar to his, his advice for starting a new center (hint: talk to everyone in town, and don’t rely on homeschoolers to fill the program), and how L.L. fits into the broader alternative education movement. We conclude by discussing where Ken is headed next and what he would do with a few million dollars. Learn more about Ken and his book at kennethdanford.com, and find his survey of North Star alumni at self-directed.org/tp/north-star-alumni/

What if there was a community college built just for homeschoolers? This may not exist yet, but Lori Walker has created the next best thing: Village Home Education Resource Center (villagehome.org). For 17 years Village Home has served young people (from pre-k through high school) in and around Portland, Oregon. Learners choose between a huge diversity of classes (costing roughly $110 each), hang out with each other between class (as can their parents and siblings), and best of all, there’s no homework and teachers only give you feedback when you specifically request it. Lori talks about how Village Home works, why she started it, and where it (and she) are headed next. Show your love for this podcast by making a monthly donation: patreon.com/blakeboles

What does it mean to “self-educate?” Are autodidacts made or born? Can one develop an intellect without formal higher education? In this special episode, Blake discusses these big questions (and many more) with Bill Deresiewicz (the author of Excellent Sheep) and guest facilitator Dev Carey. This event was recorded live in Portland, Oregon, on September 1, 2019, at the Wayfinding Academy. Learn more about Bill at billderesiewicz.com, Dev at highdesertcenter.org, and Wayfinding Academy at wayfindingacademy.org. (Note: My claim about the percentage of K-12 students in private schools in the US was wrong: it’s roughly 10%.)

Antonio Buehler was the first person in his family to finish high school or attend college. After completing an MBA at Stanford he went into investment banking and private equity before becoming deeply impressed by homeschooling and creating his own self-directed learning center in Austin, Texas, called Abrome (abrome.com). In this episode Antonio talks with Blake about what colleges—especially highly selective colleges—are looking for in their applicants, whether traditionally or non-traditionally educated. He explains how admissions “hooks” (such as legacy, athlete, and faculty-child status) influence admissions at elite colleges and how “intellectual vitality” can separate self-directed learners from the rest of the pack. We close by discussing the 2019 college bribery scandal and how families can document their work far ahead of admissions crunch-time.

Where is the alternative education movement headed, and how will we arrive there? In this special episode, Blake gives the closing keynote at the AERO (Alternative Education Resource Organization) conference in Portland, Oregon on June 29th, 2019. Themes of the talk include: embracing the growing variety of alternatives, tackling unsexy but important challenges like school finances, doing better research on self-directed learning, and the many ways to make the movement more inclusive.

What are "children's rights" and how do they overlap with the world of self-directed learning? Margie Sanderson, a 24-year-old board member of the National Youth Right Association (youthrights.org), talks with me about the different conceptions of children's rights (also called youth rights), the many ways of empowering young people to participate in society like adults, lowering the voting age, competency tests, letting students enroll and unenroll themselves in school, and the strange idea of forcing unschooling upon a child. If you have further questions, Margie invites you to email her directly: msanderson@youthrights.org.

After a successful career as a venture capitalist, Ted Dintersmith (teddintersmith.com)dedicated himself to discovering highly innovative schools around the United States, leading him to produce the 2015 documentary, Most Likely to Succeed, and his 2018 book, What School Could Be. Ted and I discuss his movie, math education, college-for-all, grit, and whether public schools will ever really change.

If conventional high school isn't a good fit for your kid, what should you do -- push harder, or try something new? Is high school mandatory for college, career, and a successful transition to adulthood? In this special episode, recorded live at the CHN Family Expo conference in southern California on May 4th, 2019, Blake explains why "Yes, You Can Quit High School and Everything Will Turn Out Okay." Download the accompanying slides at https://blakeboles.com/yesyoucan.pdf, and find the video (the one mentioned half-way through the talk, about getting into college) at http://bit.ly/unschool2college. Enjoy!

Jerry Mintz founded the Alternative Education Resource Organization (AERO) over 30 years ago and has since helped start over 50 learner-centered schools. In this special episode, Jerry and I interview each other about the state of alternative education in the world and what makes us hopeful that the movement is making progress. Explore the AERO website at www.educationrevolution.org and say hello to both me and Jerry at the 2019 AERO conference in Portland, Oregon, where I’m giving a keynote talk (June 26-30 / www.aeroconference.org).

What’s the sense and science behind giving kids more control over their lives? Why do they deserve autonomy? Ned Johnson answers these questions in his wonderful 2018 book, The Self-Driven Child (coauthored with Bill Stixrud). In the interview Ned discusses his life as a Washington D.C. test prep tutor, the deleterious effects of stress, why kids need a sense of control in their lives, shifting from “boss” to “consultant” as a parent, the science of self-motivation, and — crucially — the role that school plays in all this. In my opinion, Ned presents a powerful case for unschooling and self-directed learning. Don’t miss his final, touching story about supporting his own daughter’s break from school. Learn more about book and its authors at theselfdrivenchild.com, and read Blake’s summary and critique of the book at https://self-directed.org/tp/give-kids-control/

If you’re in love with the principles of self-directed learning but don’t want to abandon the public school system, how can you still make an impact? Kate Friedman (katefriedman.co) has figured out one way to do this. A former kindergarten special ed teacher who has also worked at the Brooklyn Free School, Kate now nudges classroom teachers in the direction of self-directed learning with the hopes of gradually shifting the New York City public school system toward more choice and inclusion of different ways of learning. We discuss good structure versus bad structure, the orthodoxy of self-direction education (that sometimes leads to kids who can’t read or write), and what inspires her to continue working in the public system despite its flaws.