Podcasts about Alfie Kohn

We sit down with world-renowned author and speaker Alfie Kohn to explore why traditional discipline methods—punishments and rewards—don’t truly work. We unpack how control-based parenting backfires, what the research says about intrinsic motivation, and how parents can move from “doing things to children” to “working with children” to foster true moral development and connection. KEY POINTS: Punishment teaches power, not morality—it damages relationships and promotes self-interest over empathy. Rewards, including praise and star charts, undermine intrinsic motivation and long-term growth. Both punishments and rewards focus on short-term compliance at the cost of deeper learning and ethical development. Real change happens when parents collaborate with children, exploring problems and empowering kids to find solutions. Effective parenting means questioning whether our expectations are reasonable and focusing on trust and respect. QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:“All rewards are just sugar-coated control.” RESOURCES MENTIONED: Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn Happy Families resources – happyfamilies.com.au ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS: Shift from control to collaboration—work with your child to solve problems, rather than doing things to them. Question your assumptions—ask yourself whether your expectations are developmentally appropriate and reasonable. Talk less, ask more—engage your child in reflective conversations about their choices and experiences. Move beyond rewards and punishments—focus on building intrinsic motivation by nurturing autonomy, competence, and relatedness. Stay patient—working with children takes more effort initially but leads to deeper, lasting change and stronger relationships. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is a conversation with Alfie Kohn, the author of 14 books including Unconditional Parenting and The Myth of the Spoiled Child. The work of Alfie Kohn has been one of the biggest influences on how I parent and why I have dedicated my career to being a Peaceful Parenting Coach. We discuss why people have always thought parents are too permissive, the nuance involved in “working with” our kids, and why we need to raise reflective rebels who question what they are told. We talk about: 7:00 Why people think we are “too soft” and permissive with kids 12:00 How black and white thinking gets in the way of peaceful parenting 15:37 “Working with” parenting vs. intensive or helicopter parenting 22:00 Why some kids need more parental support 24:00 Why we need to be realistic and raise “reflective rebels”   Download the episode transcript HERE    Resources mentioned in this episode: The Myth of the Spoiled Child  Unconditional Parenting    Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/  Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194 Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com   Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting  Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter  Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php 

What if both punishments and rewards were doing more harm than good? In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Justin and Kylie Coulson preview a powerful interview with renowned author and social critic Alfie Kohn, whose work challenges everything we thought we knew about behavior, discipline, and motivation. Discover why traditional approaches to parenting might be undermining your child’s moral development—and what to do instead. QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:"Punishment teaches power. It undermines the possibility of moral growth in children." — Alfie Kohn KEY INSIGHTS FOR PARENTS: Punishments Breed Self-Interest: When children are punished, they focus inward on avoiding pain, not outward on the consequences of their actions for others. Rewards Are the Flip Side of Punishments: Offering incentives fosters compliance, not character—and undermines intrinsic motivation. Consequences ≠ Learning: Just because something causes suffering doesn’t mean it leads to meaningful growth or moral insight. Transactional Parenting Limits Growth: Using "if-then" tactics (do this, get that) stifles empathy and moral reasoning. What We Really Want: Kids who do the right thing because it’s right, not because of fear or bribery. RESOURCES MENTIONED: Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn Full interview with Alfie Kohn (airing Saturday on the Happy Families Podcast) Website: happyfamilies.com.au ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS: Reflect on Your Approach: Ask yourself—am I raising a rule follower or a morally grounded child? Minimise External Motivators: Reduce the use of punishments and rewards in everyday parenting. Focus on Conversations: Engage your child in discussions about values, empathy, and the impact of their actions. Model Moral Reasoning: Let your children see you making decisions based on principles, not payoffs. Tune in Saturday: Don’t miss the full conversation with Alfie Kohn for more transformative ideas. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this thought-provoking episode, Kyle and Sara Wester sit down with renowned author and speaker Alfie Kohn—a powerful voice challenging traditional ideas about parenting, discipline, education, and motivation. Alfie doesn't hold back as he dives into the unintended consequences of using rewards, punishments, and even praise with children. His insights, grounded in decades of research, have radically reshaped how countless parents and educators approach behavior and discipline. This conversation is equal parts challenging and inspiring—and yes, it even moved Sara to tears. Why? Because Alfie doesn't just critique outdated approaches—he paints a compelling picture of what's possible when we parent with unconditional love, curiosity, and trust. In this episode, Kyle and Sara explore:Why rewards and punishment may undermine intrinsic motivationHow praise can backfire—and what to do insteadWhat it looks like to support children's autonomy and growthHow schools and families can foster genuine cooperation, not compliance Listeners will walk away with not only a deeper understanding of why traditional discipline falls short, but how to do things differently—and more effectively.About Our Guest:Alfie Kohn is the author of 14 influential books, including Punished by Rewards, Unconditional Parenting, The Myth of the Spoiled Child, and The Schools Our Children Deserve. He's been featured on Oprah, The Today Show, and numerous other national platforms. His work has helped parents and educators across the globe rethink what it truly means to raise and teach children with respect and connection.Learn more at

Could the way we celebrate kids at school actually be leaving many of them behind? In this episode, Dr. Justin and Kylie Coulson unpack the hidden costs of awards, assemblies, and school trips. From motivation to mental health, they explore how traditional recognition systems can impact children—and what we can do instead to help every child feel seen, supported, and valued. KEY POINTS: Awards ceremonies often benefit the same high achievers, leaving many students feeling invisible or unworthy. External rewards can reduce intrinsic motivation, especially in areas of creativity, effort, and behaviour. Assemblies can either unite a community or create anxiety and disconnection, depending on how they're run. Away days and camps offer valuable opportunities for growth—but need to be inclusive and purposeful. Children thrive when they feel seen, valued, and part of something bigger than themselves. QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:“Kids don’t need a trophy to know they matter. They need connection, encouragement, and a belief that they belong.” KEY INSIGHTS FOR PARENTS: Praise effort and process, not just outcomes. Be cautious about over-relying on rewards—consider what motivates your child from within. Talk with your child about how school events make them feel—do they feel recognised and included? Encourage educators to focus on connection and belonging in school-wide activities. RESOURCES MENTIONED: Deci & Ryan’s research on Self-Determination Theory Studies on rewards and motivation from Alfie Kohn and Carol Dweck Justin Coulson’s book 10 Things Every Parent Needs to Know ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS: Ask your child how they feel during awards assemblies—validate their emotions. Focus your praise on effort, character, and perseverance rather than outcomes. Advocate for inclusive school events that celebrate all students, not just a few. If your child misses out on recognition, remind them of their value through connection and encouragement. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello everyone! Today, I am releasing what I believe is the most important podcast in the history of the show. Not only is it filled with honest and real world talk, it is filled with research based advice and insight from one of the premier thinkers on education today. In this episode, I sit down with Alfie Kohn and discuss a range of topics, such as why grading hurts more than it helps, why rewards do more harm than good, and why the testing obsession leads to bad teaching. I consider these the three pillars of what holds up an outdated educational model, and Alfie Kohn is the main reason for that perspective. Without a doubt, Alfie has influenced my teaching in such fundamental ways, and I know his thinking, research, and expertise will encourage you to question some of the norms of our educational climate. Alfie Kohn writes and speaks widely on human behavior, education, and parenting. The most recent of his 14 books are SCHOOLING BEYOND MEASURE…And Other Unorthodox Essays About Education (2015) and THE MYTH OF THE SPOILED CHILD: Challenging the Conventional Wisdom About Children and Parenting (2014).  Of his earlier titles, the best known are PUNISHED BY REWARDS (1993), NO CONTEST: The Case Against Competition (1986), UNCONDITIONAL PARENTING (2005), and THE SCHOOLS OUR CHILDREN DESERVE (1999).  

No Contest by Alfie Kohn stands as the definitive critique of competition. Contrary to accepted wisdom, competition is not basic to human nature; it poisons our relationships and holds us back from doing our best. In this new edition, Alfie Kohn argues that the race to win turns all of us into losers.The Case Against Competition"No Contest" by Alfie Kohn Book PReviewBook of the Week - BOTW - Season 8 Book 10Buy the book on Amazon https://amzn.to/4kKwWKjGET IT. READ :)#cooperation #nocompetition #awarenessFIND OUT which HUMAN NEED is driving all of your behaviorhttp://6-human-needs.sfwalker.com/Human Needs Psychology + Emotional Intelligence + Universal Laws of Nature = MASTER OF LIFE AWARENESShttps://www.sfwalker.com/master-life-awareness

Ok - big moment you guys. I'm excited (and somewhat embarrassed!) to share this special conversation with you—one that originally aired back in 2022 in my Facebook community Let's Raise Emotionally Intelligent Kids.Looking back, I can't help but cringe! I was SO nervous and excited to be speaking with the universal expert on parenting, education, and human behaviour: Alfie Kohn.Let's just say I wasn't as polished or professional as I am now… but the insights and wisdom? They're just as powerful today as they were then.Alfie Kohn, renowned author of Punished by Rewards, No Contest, The Homework Myth, and my personal favourite, Unconditional Parenting, (plus many others!) brings his groundbreaking research and passion for progressive education to this chat.In this episode, we dive into:

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Send us a textCan “traditional" education methods be doing more harm than good? Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with renowned author and lecturer Alfie Kohn, as he challenges the status quo of grading and memorization, advocating for a shift towards fostering cooperation, altruism, and empathy in our schools. Alfie reflects on his own unremarkable schooling experience to highlight how ingrained practices often overshadow the deeper educational objectives we should aim for. By questioning whether current methods align with our long-term goals for children, Alfie inspires us to consider the potential for reimagining education to cultivate critical and compassionate thinkers.In a world of standardized tests and rigid curricula, how can teachers empower themselves and their students? We explore strategies for overcoming these systemic constraints by embracing student-centered learning. Alfie and I discuss practical steps like minimizing traditional grading and employing authentic assessments, while also addressing the political nature of educational structures. This episode is a call to action for educators to incorporate more student voice and problem-solving in their classrooms, paving the way for a brighter future in education.

In this (2 hour+ !) episode of Revolution Now (Episode 54), Peter Joseph examines the complexities of systemic transition and the limitations of reformist approaches to change, including a critical review of Jason Hickel's work. The episode concludes with a 40-minute conversation with Alfie Kohn on the destructive nature of competition. Key topics include: -Defining capitalism in a coherent and precise way. -The strategic foundation of the Integral Parallel Economy project. -The importance of out-system leverage points in driving meaningful change. -Value distortions within market economics (exchange vs use) -Why negative human behaviors are often mislabeled as human nature. -The common failures of social movements and the dangers of group identity. And more. Please support Peter's efforts through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/peterjoseph or  Direct Donation: https://www.gentlemachineproductions.com/checkout/donate?donatePageId=5f1ef0539d5bc56fac97a266  Website & Transcript: Pending Medium Transcript: Pending Read the latest Substack: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149986086?source=queue&autoPlay=false  Get Peter's book, The New Human Rights Movement: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/691520/the-new-human-rights-movement-by-peter-joseph/  Join his mailing list: https://www.peterjoseph.info/  This podcast is also available on Apple, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts.  Website & Free Archive https://www.revolutionnow.live/  Join Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/RevolutionNowPodcast/  “Zeitgeist | Requiem” Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJ8KPZakNI  About Peter: https://www.peterjoseph.info/biography  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/peterjosephofficial  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peterjosephofficial

Guest: David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO & co-owner of 37signals and creator of Ruby on Rails 37signals CTO David Heinemeier Hansson has organized his life around his passions: Writing, racing sports cars, and coding. “ Why aren't we all doing that?” he wonders. “Why aren't we all trying to optimize our life in such a way that much of it is enjoyable?”Part of the problem, David argues, is that it's impossible to find a creative or productive flow inside of mainstream work culture. Open offices, managerial over-hiring, and sloppy scheduling prevents people from reaching a flow state.“40 hours a week is plenty than most people,” he says. “... So many people today are focused on just adding more and more hours. They're not thinking about how those hours are spent.” Chapters:(01:19) - 24 Hours of Le Mans (06:48) - Amateurs in sports car racing (10:54) - Flow and meditation (15:25) - Mundane bulls**t (18:14) - Optimizing for flow (21:09) - Calendars and open offices (24:30) - Full-time managers (29:06) - Small companies (32:20) - Selfishness and work (40:21) - Taking other people's money (45:43) - Temptation (49:49) - Moderately rich (55:19) - “The day I became a millionaire” (58:56) - The hassle (01:03:58) - Achieving the dream (01:08:34) - Shopify and Tobias Lütke (01:14:50) - Trade-offs and downsides (01:18:43) - The impact of Ruby on Rails (01:22:02) - “I love being wrong” (01:25:37) - DEI and illegal drugs (01:29:49) - Not hiring (01:30:35) - What “grit” means to David Mentioned in this episode: TikTok, Minecraft, Mario Kart, Formula One, NASCAR, Lewis Hamilton, the NBA, Tesla Model S, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Steve McQueen, Jason Fried, Tetris, Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber, Elon Musk and Twitter, the Dunbar number, Zappos, Google, Adam Smith, Stripe, Meta, Jeff Bezos, Basecamp, Zapier, 1Password, GitHub, SpaceX, private jets, Aesop, the Pagani Zonda, the Porsche Boxster, Lamborghini, Coco Chanel, LeBron James, Hey, Steve Jobs, Michael Arrington and TechCrunch, Y Combinator, Dr. Thomas Sowell,Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn, Grit by Angela Duckworth, and LEGO. Links:Connect with DavidTwitterLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

Alfie Kohn's book Unconditional Parenting has been a paradigm-shifting read. It has completely reorientated my relationship with my inner child and the way I pursue my self-development work. It has helped reshape the landscape of my partnership and has become a core topic of conversation and exploration as we near our own parenting chapter. In this episode, we get into all things parenting and how to navigate the waters of caregiving without relying on the manipulative tactics of punishment and reward. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave it a review! And check out https://www.alfiekohn.org/ to learn more about his work, tools, and resources.

In this episode, Peter Joseph critiques the pervasive belief in competition as a beneficial force for personal development, creativity, and societal progress. Drawing on research by Alfie Kohn and Daniel Pink, he argues that competition actually hinders creative problem-solving and distorts human motivation. Joseph explores how monetary rewards and the market economy create narrow, self-serving goals that undermine genuine innovation. He also discusses the harmful effects of market-driven incentives, such as planned obsolescence, and the interconnectedness of industries that profit from maintaining problems rather than solving them. Website & Transcript: https://www.revolutionnow.live/episode-52/ Medium Transcript: https://peter-joseph.medium.com/market-incentive-disorders-the-myth-of-competitive-benefit-0d25bf385e13 Please support Peter's efforts through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/peterjoseph  or  Direct Donation: https://www.gentlemachineproductions.com/checkout/donate?donatePageId=5f1ef0539d5bc56fac97a266  Read latest Substack: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149986086?source=queue&autoPlay=false Get Peter's latest book, The New Human Rights Movement: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/691520/the-new-human-rights-movement-by-peter-joseph/  Join his mailing list: https://www.peterjoseph.info/  This podcast is also available on Apple, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts.  Website & Free Archive https://www.revolutionnow.live/  Join Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/RevolutionNowPodcast/  “Zeitgeist | Requiem” Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJ8KPZakNI About Peter: https://www.peterjoseph.info/biography  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/peterjosephofficial  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peterjosephofficial

(NOTAS Y ENLACES DEL CAPÍTULO AQUÍ: https://www.jaimerodriguezdesantiago.com/kaizen/qa12-sistemas-de-aprendizaje-comunicacion-no-violenta-maternidad-y-paternidad-perfiles-hibridos-incentivos-al-educar-dolor-y-cambios-sociales/)¡Primer capítulo de preguntas y respuestas de esta temporada! Y con este, además, creo que me pongo al día de los mensajes acumulados. De hecho, me estoy planteando cambiar el formato y organizar de vez en cuando alguna grabación en streaming en la que podamos interactuar de forma más directa, pero no lo tengo del todo decidido y no sé tampoco si voy a tener realmente el tiempo de hacerlo, porque es probable que dentro de poco mi tiempo disponible se reduzca por un buen motivo, pero ya te lo contaré más adelante. Hoy el menú es de lo más variado, hablamos de sistemas de aprendizaje, de comunicación no verbal, de maternidad y paternidad, de cómo encajan los perfiles híbridos en el mundo laboral, del uso de incentivos al educar, del dolor y de cambios sociales. Casi nada.PATROCINADOR DEL CAPÍTULO: VDS.tech ¿Te gusta kaizen? Apoya el podcast uniéndote a la Comunidad y accede a contenidos y ventajas exclusivas: https://www.jaimerodriguezdesantiago.com/comunidad-kaizen/

(NOTAS Y ENLACES DEL CAPÍTULO AQUÍ: https://www.jaimerodriguezdesantiago.com/kaizen/bonus-los-incentivos-mueven-el-mundo-con-ion-cuervas-mons-y-francois-derbaix/)Por si no los tienes ubicados, te diré que François es un histórico del sector tecnológico y emprendedor español, al que conozco desde hace muchos años, cuando yo trataba con poca fortuna de sacar adelante un proyecto bastante alocado. Él fue, por ejemplo, fundador de TopRural y, más recientemente, de  Indexa Capital, de la que te he hablado muchas veces. Y te puedo asegurar que, además de un tipo encantador, es alguien de quien aprendo algo cada vez que hablamos, porque tiene una capacidad realmente especial para sacar aprendizajes de sus experiencias y transformarlas en un sentido común muy poco común. Y creo que eso se nota en nuestra charla.Ion, además de podcaster y maestro de ceremonias en este capítulo, es un perfil muy kaizen. Es arquitecto de formación, aunque tiene ese punto friki e híbrido tan típico de este podcast. Es un lector y consumidor de contenidos voraz y ha sido directivo y emprendedor en diferentes compañías. Actualmente es fundador de Rauda, una empresa dedicada a aplicar inteligencia artificial a la atención al cliente. Por cierto, que si te interesa la inteligencia artificial tienen también una newsletter imperdible: Raudamatic.Es curioso. Porque los tres tenemos un perfil muy asociado a los negocios tecnológicos y, sin embargo, nos liamos a hablar de algo enormemente humano: cómo funciona nuestra motivación, cómo se ve moldeada por los incentivos y cómo podemos tratar de trabajar con todo ello. Por el camino hablamos de innovación, de crianza y hasta del capitalismo y del comunismo. Y, por supuesto, de libros. De hecho, la idea de este capítulo surgió de un libro concreto que recomendé en Nada Que Ganar: Mixed Signals, de un israelí con apellido impronunciable: Uri GneezyY dicho todo esto, te dejo ya con esta conversación que tanto disfruté con Ion y François. Espero que a ti también te guste. ¡Ya están abiertas las inscripciones para la 2ª edición del programa de desarrollo directivo y liderazgo que dirijo en Tramontana! ¿Te interesa? Toda la info aquí: https://www.tramontana.net/desarrollo-directivo-liderazgo¿Te gusta kaizen? Apoya el podcast uniéndote a la Comunidad y accede a contenidos y ventajas exclusivas: https://www.jaimerodriguezdesantiago.com/comunidad-kaizen/

I'm joined by Alfie Kohn to discuss No Contest: The Case Against Competition, his 1986 book about how competition hurts rather than helps people do their best. We cover the problem with grades, the reason why excellence and competition are opposed, and whats wrong with rewards and what makes awards even worse.For more from Alfie, check out his website:https://www.alfiekohn.org/

In this week's episode we talk all about progressive education.I share and offer my reactions to the essay by Alfie Kohn entitled, Progressive Education: Why it's Hard to Beat, But Also Hard to Find.We share about what defines a progressive program, what progressive programs are not, why they are awesome, and why there is a resistance to them.Know a friend who loves early childhood? Share this podcast. Lot's more topics, tips, and fun on Instagram @prek.spotFor awesome merch and more info visit Pre-KSpot.comEven more free content inside out our weekly newsletter! Join today.We have so many amazing resources and FREEBIES just for you.

What if the very foundation of motivation, that we've leaned on for so long, is actually doing us more harm than good? Brace yourself for a shake-up as we dive into Alfie Cohn's provocative book, 'Punished by Rewards', a groundbreaker that has us reevaluating our beliefs around rewards in education and life in general. We explore the origin and effectiveness of rewards and their potential pitfalls, questioning whether they truly serve our goals or whether they erode our intrinsic motivation and foster a transactional view of relationships.We'll ponder together over the implications this book has for classroom settings and how it made me rethink my own practices as a parent and an early childhood teacher. From exploring the impact of reward systems on developing a growth mindset to how they can inadvertently promote a fixed mindset, let's unpack the arguments the book makes. We'll also talk about the aftermath of the book's publication, including the controversial reactions it sparked among different communities, and discuss the appendices that add further depth to the book's arguments. This is not just your regular book review. This is a call for reassessment and an invitation to a more thoughtful, conscious approach to motivation and success. Let's have this eye-opening conversation together.Know a friend who loves early childhood? Share this podcast. Lot's more topics, tips, and fun on Instagram @prek.spotFor awesome merch and more info visit Pre-KSpot.comEven more free content inside out our weekly newsletter! Join today.We have so many amazing resources and FREEBIES just for you.

Devices can calm our emotional children - but does a screen actually help them to emotionally regulate or is it just distracting them from their emotions in the heat of the moment? Are there long term consequences to letting screens "manage" a child's emotions? We also talk about a controversial topic - using "screen-time" as a reward! There is an important connection between screen use and children's executive function and emotional regulation, and it's not good news! In this episode: Your words have power:  @always.upper.elementary Toothpaste Words: The most important back to school lesson you can do Should we comment on someone's appearance? Cure for tantrums? Longitudinal associations between parental digital emotion regulation and children's self-regulatory skills Using devices as digital pacifiers Frustration tolerance Unplug Childhood: Join the village, sign the petition #1038 - Managing Emotional Dysregulation Tolerable discomfort Resilience Associations between media parenting practices and early adolescent screen use  Social media Using screens as punishment or reward leads to higher screen use Alfie Kohn, author of 'Punished by Rewards' Positive/negative reinforcement The most important "app" for our children Related links:  Unplugging Parenthood #137 Punishment & Rewards with Alfie Kohn . Doors are now open to the Happy Families Membership  NEW weekly kids' ‘Print & Play' subscription FELT (Fostering Emotional Learning Together) Find us on Facebook or TikTok Subscribe to the Happy Families newsletter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Education News Headline Roundup [00:02:24]Bloomberg Philanthropies has announced a $1 billion donation to Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. This generous gift aims to cover tuition for a majority of students, addressing the financial barriers to medical education.Dr. Elena Aydarova's recent work critiques Science of Reading reforms, arguing they often disguise motives of standardization, centralization, and privatization. Her analysis, based on advocacy efforts in Tennessee, reveals how these policies may perpetuate inequalities. The discussion highlights the tension between evidence-based teaching methods and the political agendas that influence educational policy. [Bonus content: A brief back and forth with Alfie Kohn, author of Punished by Rewards and many other titles!]Textbook Case: The Making and Marketing of Educational Resources [00:13:45]Textbooks are essential educational resources used to align with standards, provide structured learning, and support lesson planning. The process of creating a textbook begins with identifying a market for the resource and often involves multiple authors or contributors and extensive review. Major publishers such as Pearson and McGraw-Hill dominate the market. Marketing efforts include social media promotion, trade shows, and direct outreach to schools and (increasingly) students. The textbook adoption process for many schools involves evaluation by educators and curriculum coordinators to ensure curricular alignment and often incorporates review committees and pilot testing. Digital versions and supplementary resources such as video, audio, and online coursework are now standard as publishers scramble to appeal to tech-friendly classrooms.Textbooks face criticism for being outdated, expensive, and potentially biased. They have the potential to promote standardization and test preparation over deep learning and critical thinking. Despite these issues, replacing textbooks is challenging due to the extensive effort required to update associated teaching materials, leading to prolonged use of flawed resources.Discussion Questions [00:35:30]1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of using textbooks versus original sources?2. What does it mean to treat a textbook as an authoritative source of information? Are we equipping students to interrogate these educational materials and approach them with a critical lens?3. Do textbooks contribute to over-standardization in education?Sources & Resources:Bloomberg Philanthropies Makes Medical School Free at Johns Hopkins Medical SchoolThe Science of Reading (16:1)Bloomberg's donation to Johns Hopkins gives medical students free tuitionWhat You See Is Not What You Get: Science of Reading Reforms As a Guise for Standardization, Centralization, and PrivatizationHow a textbook is made - Oxford University PressThe Schools Our Children Deserve - (Book) - Alfie KohnCengage and McGraw-Hill Terminate Merger AgreementTextbook publishers explore direct-to-student marketing and salesAbout NCPC - National Capital Planning CommissionParis Olympics by the numbers: Participating country stats and facts

In this minisode season finale, Melissa continues to share one of her favorite articles about voice and choice by Alfie Kohn. Choices for Children: Why and How to Let Students Decide. In addition, she talks about a time management concept that can be applied to the classroom and she looks back at the episodes of the fifth season.

In this minisode, Melissa shares from one of her favorite articles about voice and choice. Choices for Children: Why and How to Let Students Decide by Alfie Kohn lays out the rationale for voice and choice as well as what it looks like in practice. In this minisode, Melissa highlights the rationale and she will highlight what it looks like in practice in her next minisode.

So the research shows that punishment doesn't change behaviour? So then what do we actually do as teachers? What's on the table when other things feel like they are off it?In today's episode:I give you a few ins and outs of the impact of punitive punishmentWhy sometimes it seems to really work3 really tangible takeaways you can immediately apply in your classrooms Speaking of research, want to have a read? Here are some good places to start:Jean-Richard-Dit-Bressel P, Killcross S, McNally GP. Behavioral and neurobiological mechanisms of punishment: implications for psychiatric disorders. Neuropsychopharmacology. 2018;43(8):1639-1650. doi:10.1038/s41386-018-0047-3Lukowiak T, Bridges J. Punishment strategies: First choice or last resort. JAASEP. 2010:63-72.A great book that will sum up a bunch of research on punishments and rewards is Alfie Kohn's book Punished by Rewards.REGISTER HERE for the free live training: Turn your Teaching into a Classroom Management Machine*The waitlist for my signature training program That'll Teach ‘Em is now open! TTE gives you the exact roadmaps and resources you need to adopt a holistic behaviour approach, so you can walk into your classroom feeling confident, calm, and in control. Enrolment opens April 6th for the 2024 intake. So if you are ready to feel confident reducing, responding to, and resolving challenging classroom behaviours, join the waitlist now to claim an early-bird discount and course bonuses. Pre-order a copy of my book ‘It's Never Just About the Behaviour: A holistic approach to classroom behaviour management Other ways I can support you in your teaching practice: Download my free guide: 9 Tiny (But Mighty) Tips to Transform Your Teaching Follow me on Instagram for daily micro-professional learning and support Connect with me on LinkedIn

In this enlightening episode, join Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci as they engage with renowned progressive educator Alfie Kohn to dismantle the concept of cognitive load in education. Through a spirited dialogue, Kohn critiques traditional educational methods that prioritize direct instruction and memorization over inquiry-based, progressive learning. This discussion not only challenges conventional wisdom but also offers a fresh perspective on how cognitive load theory has been misapplied to diminish the effectiveness of progressive education approaches. Listeners will gain insights into the importance of active learning and how it fosters deeper understanding and long-term retention over rote memorization. Kohn's arguments are supported by a review of educational research, highlighting the benefits of student-centered learning environments that encourage exploration, critical thinking, and meaningful engagement with material. The conversation also touches upon the broader implications of these educational strategies on fostering critical thinkers and the role of educators in facilitating a more nuanced and effective learning experience. By the end of the episode, the hosts and Kohn have not only debunked myths surrounding cognitive load theory but also championed the value of embracing complexity in the learning process. This episode is a must-listen for educators, parents, and anyone interested in the future of education, offering practical insights and encouraging a shift towards more engaging, thoughtful, and effective teaching methods.

Are you okay the way you are... really? We discuss this topic in this weeks episode! Join us for some deep thoughts, another visit from our favorite founding father George Washington, and maybe even a dash of inspiring poetry! Check out Andy Andrews on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AndyAndrewsAuthor Some Jordan Peterson Videos we liked on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyothMhuL78 Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn: https://a.co/d/766GWFz

We often praise others, create intricate rewards programs at work, compensation plans are loaded with performance goals....are all these things counter-productive?  Join us this week as Sarah Baca and Jay Hrcsko sit down with the author of the book Punished by Rewards, Alfie Kohn.  They discuss how "inside each carrot is a stick", how to properly motivate people, and how to NOT offer praise.  Enjoy! If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a review, a rating, or leave comments on iTunes, Stitcher or your podcasting platform of choice. It really helps others find us.  Much thanks to the artist  from  who provided us our outro music free-of-charge!  If you like what you heard,     to find more music you might enjoy! If you'd like to join the discussion and share your stories,  please jump into the fray at our  We at the Agile Uprising are committed to being totally free.  However, if you'd like to contribute and help us defray hosting and production costs we do have a .  Who knows, you might even get some surprises in the mail!    

What are your long term goals for your children?Are they to be:* Happy * Ethical* Caring* Compassionate* Independent* Self-reliant* Curious* Critical thinkersOr some variation on this theme?If that's the case, throw out the carrot and the stick because research shows that rewards and punishment don't work. Well what the heck am I going to do you might ask?This podcast episode (one of my favourites to revisit) with Alfie Kohn emphasises the importance of unconditional love in parenting, contrasting it with the common practice of using rewards and conditional affection to manipulate a child's behaviour. The more you use power on children to get them to do what you want, the less influence you'll probably have on their lives - Thomas GordonTraditional parenting advice often focuses on control and compliance rather than meeting children's true needs. However, research indicates that treating children with respect, understanding their perspectives, and empowering them to make decisions is a much better approach for raising happy, ethical, and independent critical thinking individuals.That's why Alfie advocates for loving our children unconditionally and considering our children's needs rather than demanding strict obedience.You can start by asking yourself the questions:* What does my child need right now?* How can I meet those needs?* What are my long-term goals for my child?* What are some ways to respond in situations rather than react?* How can I be an even better parent than my parents?Practice perspective taking Try to imagine how you would feel if somebody just said what you said to your child (or used the tone you just used) to you, then go one step further and imagine now how it feels from your child's perspective (because what might be ok with you, might impact them very differently because you are not the same person).Key takeaways:* Treat your kids respectfully* Do perspective taking* Ask a lot more questions than telling.Good luck!Big hugRichTo find out more about Alfie's work visit www.alfiekohn.org Get full access to The Dad Mindset at www.thedadmindset.com/subscribe

Chapter 1 What's Unconditional Parenting Book by Alfie Kohn"Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason" is a book written by Alfie Kohn. In this book, Kohn challenges traditional parenting practices that rely on rewards and punishments as methods of control. Instead, he advocates for a parenting style that is based on unconditional love and respect for the child's autonomy and intrinsic motivation. Kohn encourages parents to focus on fostering their child's growth, emotional well-being, and independent thinking rather than manipulating their behavior through external rewards or punishments.Chapter 2 Is Unconditional Parenting Book A Good BookOpinions on books, like "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn, can vary greatly. Some people find it to be an insightful and valuable resource that challenges traditional parenting techniques, while others may disagree with Kohn's ideas or think the book lacks practical advice. It ultimately depends on your personal parenting style, beliefs, and what you are looking to gain from the book. It's always a good idea to read reviews, research the author, and perhaps even read a sample chapter or synopsis before deciding if it's a good fit for you.Chapter 3 Unconditional Parenting Book by Alfie Kohn Summary"Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason" is a parenting book written by Alfie Kohn. In this book, Kohn challenges traditional techniques of disciplining children through rewards and punishments and presents an alternative approach based on love, empathy, and reasoning.Kohn argues that conditional parenting, which relies on offering rewards for good behavior and punishments for bad behavior, is not only ineffective but also harms children's development and motivation. He believes that the use of rewards creates external motivation, where children behave well only to receive something in return, and punishments can lead to a fear-based compliance rather than internalizing values.According to Kohn, unconditional parenting focuses on meeting children's needs, respecting their autonomy, and fostering positive relationships. He encourages parents to move away from using praise and rewards, which can erode intrinsic motivation, and adopt a more empathetic approach, where they listen to their children's opinions and feelings.The book covers several key topics, including the meaning and impact of conditional parenting, the use of praise and rewards, the problems with punishment, and the importance of trust and communication in parent-child relationships. Kohn also provides practical strategies and examples for implementing unconditional parenting principles in everyday situations.The main idea of "Unconditional Parenting" is to view children as individuals with valid needs and emotions, rather than objects to be controlled or manipulated. It promotes a collaborative and respectful parenting style that aims to nurture children's intrinsic motivation, empathy, and problem-solving skills.Overall, "Unconditional Parenting" challenges conventional parenting methods and offers a thought-provoking perspective on how to raise emotionally healthy and independent children by focusing on love, understanding, and trust. Chapter 4 Unconditional Parenting Book AuthorAlfie Kohn is an American author and lecturer known for his work in the field of education, parenting, and human behavior. He was born on October 15, 1957, in Miami Beach, Florida.Kohn released the book "Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love...

Chapter 1 What's Punished by Rewards Book by Alfie Kohn"Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes" is a book written by Alfie Kohn. In this book, Kohn challenges the common practice of using rewards as motivation and explores the negative consequences that rewards can have on individuals, particularly in educational and workplace settings. He argues that rewards, whether they are tangible (such as gold stars and trophies) or intangible (such as praise and grades), often undermine intrinsic motivation, creativity, and long-term achievement. Kohn suggests alternative approaches to motivation and encourages readers to reevaluate their reliance on rewards.Chapter 2 Is Punished by Rewards Book A Good BookOpinions on whether a book is "good" can vary depending on personal preferences and beliefs. However, many readers and experts consider "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn to be a valuable and thought-provoking book. Kohn challenges the commonly held belief that rewards and punishments are effective methods for motivating people, both in educational and workplace environments. Instead, he presents research and data that suggest rewards can actually be detrimental to motivation, creativity, and overall well-being. Readers praise the book for its insightful analysis and ability to challenge traditional thinking. Kohn's argument prompts a reevaluation of the use of rewards and offers alternative approaches, such as fostering intrinsic motivation and emphasizing autonomy. However, it's important to note that the book may challenge some deeply ingrained beliefs about rewards and punishments. Therefore, whether it is considered a "good" book may depend on the reader's openness to alternative ideas and willingness to critically evaluate their own practices.Chapter 3 Punished by Rewards Book by Alfie Kohn SummaryThe book "Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn explores the effects of reward-based systems on human behavior and motivation. Kohn argues that rewards, such as prizes, bonuses, or praise, can actually be counterproductive and lead to negative consequences in the long run.Kohn begins by challenging the common notion that rewards are effective in motivating individuals. He presents evidence from various studies that suggest rewards can actually undermine intrinsic motivation and decrease performance, creativity, and problem-solving abilities.The author also criticizes the use of rewards in the education system, arguing that they create a superficial interest in learning instead of fostering a genuine love for knowledge. He suggests that educators should focus on creating meaningful and engaging learning experiences that encourage autonomy and intrinsic motivation instead of relying on external rewards.Furthermore, Kohn addresses the negative impact of rewards in the workplace. He argues that monetary incentives can devalue work and decrease job satisfaction, ultimately leading to reduced productivity and employee burnout. He also examines the potential harmful effects of rewards in parenting, asserting that they can hinder the development of a child's self-regulation skills and moral reasoning.Throughout the book, Kohn offers alternative approaches to motivation and behavior, such as fostering a sense of autonomy, promoting collaboration, and providing opportunities for self-direction. He emphasizes the importance of intrinsic motivation, intrinsic satisfaction, and autonomy over external rewards."Punished by Rewards" challenges the traditional view of motivation and offers a thought-provoking critique of reward-based systems. Kohn encourages readers to reevaluate their reliance on rewards and consider alternative...

Get ready for an insightful journey into the realms of homeschooling, motivation, and grading in education. Listen in as I reassure those of you battling with homeschooling anxiety that you're not alone, and there's no need to fear that you're ruining your child's life.  Discover the purpose and impact of grades, as we reference the work of John Taylor Gatto, a seasoned public school teacher. In this episode, I discuss motivation drawing upon the research of celebrated thought leaders Dan Pink, Dr. Mihaly Csikszentmihzlyi, and Alfie Kohn, and their revelations about how intrinsic motivation trumps extrinsic rewards when it comes to effective learning.   Get tips on how to foster intrinsic motivation in your children and how to make them understand that grades are feedback, not permanent markers. Remember, our kids should find their purpose in the work they do, and understanding and nurturing their intrinsic motivation can go a long way in achieving this. So tune in, it's an episode packed with valuable insights! Books Referenced: Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi Weapons of Mass Instruction by John Taylor Gatto Drive by Daniel Pink Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn Cosby Episode Referenced:  The Cosby Show: Denise brings by her new boyfriend (Part1) *Please note that some of the links included in this article are Amazon affiliate links. CONNECT with US Join the Private Facebook Group  Connect and follow along with Janae's Journey on Instagram @janae.daniels Learn more about School to Homeschool

Welcome to Teach Me, Teacher – the premier podcast for educators! We're thrilled to be an award-winning show that's dedicated to bringing you insightful conversations with some of the brightest minds in the world of education. Our roster of distinguished guests includes luminaries such as Eric Weinstein, Kelly Gallagher, Donalyn Miller, Secretary Miguel Cardona, and Alfie Kohn. At Teach Me, Teacher, we're passionate about preserving the integrity of education. We believe that it should be shaped by educators and learners, not corporate interests. That's why we've launched our Patreon page – to empower our dedicated listeners and supporters to help sustain the show without resorting to advertising deals with companies that don't belong in the education space. By becoming a patron, you'll not only support our mission but also gain exclusive benefits. You'll enjoy early access to full episodes before anyone else, access to video interviews, and a host of exciting perks we have in store for you. Join us in our journey to celebrate and enhance the world of education. Together, we can keep the conversation focused on what truly matters – quality learning experiences for all. Thank you for being a part of the Teach Me, Teacher community! Click here to support the show and get early and exclusive access to our Season 8 opener with Jennifer Serravallo on Reading Strategies 2.0 and Educational Research. 

It does no disservice to the education battles of the current day to connect them to previous battles and conversations. The post Alfie Kohn, Diane Ravitch and Kevin Kumashiro on Education appeared first on FAIR.

Dr. Deming was a professor for nearly 5 decades, and while most of his examples and writing discussed manufacturing, he applied all the same ideas to teaching. In this episode, John Dues and host Andrew Stotz discuss points 2 and 3 of Dr. Deming's 14 Points for Management - translated for people in education: adopt the new philosophy and cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality.  TRANSCRIPT 0:00:00.0 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. Today we're continuing our discussion about the shift from management myths to principles for the transformation of school systems. John take it away.   0:00:29.4 John Dues: Andrew. It's good to be back. I thought since we've done a number of episodes now just to do a quick recap of where we're at folks that are following along on the Deming Institute website. We're on episode 11. In episodes seven through nine I outlined those six common management myths and you just talked about the point of those three episodes was to help the education systems leaders see what not to do. We've now turned to a set of principles that can be used by these same leaders to guide their transformation work. And in the last episode, episode 10, I introduced the 14 Principles for educational systems transformation. We talked about Principle 1 which was called Create Constancy of Purpose. In this episode I'll describe the second principle which I call Adopt The New Philosophy and the third principle which I call Cease Dependence on Inspection to Achieve Quality. And I mean I think a really important point to make that I got from Dr. Deming when I think about these 14 principles is a preemptive strike. Over the course of 60 years or so of continual improvement work Dr. Deming worked with Japanese industrial leaders, governments, top companies in the United States. Maybe a little bit lesser known was that he was a professor of statistics at New York University for nearly 50 years.   0:02:06.1 JD: And in his books he not only taught the 14 Points to the leaders with which he worked but they also guided his own teaching practices as a professor. And so there was a, sort of, a short Deming quote that stuck out in regards to the 14 Points and who they apply to. He said the 14 Points apply anywhere to small organizations as to large ones to the service industry as well to manufacturing. So I think it's sort of a preemptive strike of sorts, in case people in schools would think that maybe these 14 principles only apply to industry or only apply to healthcare and other sector but they really do apply to the education sector and in fact that was, sort of, a sector close to Deming's heart since he spent like I said five decades or so in academia.   0:03:00.3 AS: Yeah I mean so it's a good point that I think when you read Deming's material or if you watch his videos there's an overwhelming amount of information about factories and businesses and all that. And there's less about service sector. There is talk in there about service sector. But so I think a lot of people that first stumble upon it start to think, "Oh, this is just for factory quality control", or something like that. And that's been proven wrong particularly the LEAN startup in the world of startups really applied Deming's PDSA cycle as an example in very much service industries so it's a good point that this applies everywhere.   0:03:42.3 JD: Yeah. And basically what I tried to do with the 14 Principles in my 'Win-Win' book was just basically just translate the language from, sort of, manufacturing or sort of, industrial language to education sector language. So I actually literally created a crosswalk where I said here's Demings Point 1 and here's how I'd frame that for school people. And so that's, sort of, what I'm taking folks through in this most recent set of episodes. So thinking about diving in here. Principle 2, sort of, the short name is Adopt the New Philosophy. The descriptor, sort of, is Adopt the New Philosophy: Systems leaders must awaken to the fact that education reform movements often lack a sound philosophical foundation, must learn their new responsibilities and take on leadership for improvement. So this, sort of, goes back to this idea of what came out of A Nation At Risk. What was the next steps? What was, sort of, the response? And what I'm saying is that was probably the wrong response and instead we need to Adopt This New Philosophy. That's what Dr. Deming is calling us to do. And that's his point too and I've translated that for education folks.   0:05:01.8 AS: And just for clarity purposes. This principle number two and, you know, what Deming's talking about Adopt the New Philosophy is a very kind of a general statement yet it's maybe a specific statement. Is he telling us to adopt this new philosophy, like generally or is he saying the philosophy of such and such, the philosophy of quality, the philosophy of constancy and purpose, the philosophy of being a learning organization? I'm just curious how you're interpreting that.   0:05:38.7 JD: Yeah I think the 14 Principles are a part of the philosophy. Really, the philosophy is the System of Profound Knowledge though. And if I could, sort of, frame the Deming Philosophy for education what I would, how I would put that is that it's really about studying and applying the System of Profound Knowledge to do two things basically. The first thing is we wanna view teaching and learning as dynamic processes that occur within a system. That's, sort of, the first frame. The second frame is understand the nature of variation of those teaching and learning processes so that we can take the appropriate action within our systems and then we're doing that so we can accomplish improvement on this continual basis. So that's the, sort of, frame I would give the application of Deming's Philosophy to the education system.   0:06:40.9 AS: So is the goal improvement, and understanding the process and understanding variation are steps we get to, of how we improve better, faster, more sustainably or how do you see that?   0:06:56.4 JD: Yeah I think that's exactly right. I think it's all of those things. It gives us the information that we need the knowledge that we need within our systems to make the changes that need to be changed on a, sort of, continual basis. And, you know, it's something that never ends. It's a process that really never ends. It's, you know, not a recipe it's not a program to be implemented but instead it's a method it's a way of thinking that allows to, sort of, continually improve our organization.   0:07:29.1 AS: One other thing I would just mention about this is that if you take away one thing... One thing we could take away is to become a learning organization. I didn't really understand that for many years, but now I really understand that in order to truly learn you have to understand variation in the System of Profound Knowledge and all of the systems stuff in order to truly learn. And then you start to realize that if you're on a mission to truly learn the amount of improvements that you're gonna be able to do is way beyond most other people most other companies competitors most other schools. Because you have... That is part of the Constancy of Purpose is learning and that, I didn't really understand that when I first got into the Deming stuff but now I see just become a learning machine.   0:08:28.3 JD: Yeah. That's what you sort of have to commit to. And I think really what the 14 Principles do is serve as this practical guide by which, you know, systems leaders can lead. It's really that guide. So those management myths avoid those things and then here are these 14 Principles that we can, sort of, follow and some of those principles like Principle 1, Create Constancy of Purpose really tell us what to do and then, sort of, other principles in the list instruct us on how to, sort of, remove barriers in creating this environment the very environment that you were, you know, talking about just now in terms of an environment that's conducive establishing a new philosophy, establishing a learning organization, avoiding barriers to those things like management by objectives. One of the points that we'll get to is "abolish management by objective". That's something we want to get rid of. And really the backbone of the philosophy is transformation from this culture of competition where I win you lose or I lose you win. And really what we want the dominant paradigm in order to, sort of, have the environment that we need to be that learning organization is to create this, sort of, win-win paradigm based on this culture of cooperation.   0:10:00.1 JD: I think, you know, especially when Deming was speaking 45 years ago, 50 years ago when he became really popular in the United States, we had a long way to go. And I think there's still a long way to go but you can almost see, well, you can see a lot of the Deming philosophy in companies today. It is just most companies aren't anywhere close to all the way there, right? And that same thing goes for school systems. I think, sort of, that this idea of win-win philosophy it is a new way of thinking for a lot of leaders. I think one of the, sort of, primary concerns which once you've adopted, sort of, this new approach is that we want to develop joy in work and learning among students, for us as staff as well, as a prerequisite to achieving the core purpose of the organization. Because when people are joyful in their work or joyful in their learning you know you've already created this, sort of, environment that you're referring to where people can learn and improve and people are gonna use data in a way that drives towards that instead of, sort of, guarding their corner of the system like we've talked about before. And I think, you know, I think when you read Deming and I think when you think about transformation of an organization from one philosophy to another philosophy that can certainly be daunting.   0:11:39.0 JD: I think I've said it on this podcast episode, one of these episodes before but this transition is not gonna happen overnight. And I think Deming said something to the effect of when it comes to transformation there's no instant pudding. This doesn't just happen instantly. I think a more realistic goal is this constant consistent movement towards the new philosophy where you're moving towards total involvement of the entire organization everybody from top to bottom and then you're getting everybody working on this continual improvement activity of all systems processes and activities, you know, within the school system. Now it doesn't mean you're necessarily, sort of, attacking every single system or every process at the same time. It just means that you're sort of equipping everybody across the organization with knowledge of the philosophy, knowledge of the methods, and then the tools that go along with those methods like the Plan-Do-Study-Act cycle, like the Process Behavior Chart. And you're getting everybody, sort of, working towards this common aim. And again this is, this is a process and it takes, it takes time for sure.   0:12:51.9 AS: And that's why you need Constancy of Purpose too. Because if you don't have Constancy of Purpose and you have constant change, you know, change in leadership and direction, you know, you're never gonna get there. And I think about the...so many companies that we looked at when I was first studying Deming and listening and learning, many of those companies went through a 5 year phase of implementing the Deming teachings and then they got a new CEO and he says I'm not up for that. I like this. I'm, you know, I'm up for measuring everybody's KPIs and kicking ass and holding people accountable around here. Enough of this cooperation. [laughter]   0:13:36.1 JD: Yeah I think that's a common occurrence and I think, you know, in addition to the 14 Principles there's also the five... I forget what he exactly called them Deadly sins or something like that.   0:13:52.4 AS: Six Deadly Diseases I think it was.   0:13:55.0 JD: I think it was started as five and maybe it grew to six or seven but definitely one of them was the transition of senior leaders on a frequent basis because that makes this virtually impossible to, you know, to change to a New Philosophy.   0:14:08.5 AS: So that really ties together the Constancy of Purpose and Adopting the New Philosophy because then you really see that this is a real commitment. This isn't a fad, this isn't some new tool or something like that. It's a new way of thinking that's gonna require work to get there.   0:14:28.3 JD: Yeah that's exactly right and a lot of people, sort of, associate Deming with Control Charts or something like that, which obviously again he was a statistician. He used Control Charts frequently. I think the Control Charts and Process Behavior Charts are an important tool but what's more important is this way of thinking this is really what Deming was focused on more than anything else is this way of thinking that went with understanding your organization through the lens of the System of Profound Knowledge. It's really this philosophical change adopting this new philosophy that's really what he was most focused on when he worked with governments or schools or corporations, organizations. But that was Principle 2. That's Adopt the New Philosophy. It's not easy. Takes commitment, takes Constancy of Purpose. You've got to stick with it.   0:15:21.8 JD: I think Principle 3, sort of, transitioning to that, I talked about ceasing dependence on inspection to achieve quality. And when I'm talking about Principle 3 in education I'm talking about two specific types of inspection. So I'll just, sort of, read the whole principle and then we can, sort of, unpack it a little bit. So Principle 3: "cease dependence on standardized testing to achieve quality and work to abolish grading and the harmful effects of rating people eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis. For example standardized testing by building quality into the product in the first place. The product in education systems is high quality learning." That's, sort of, Principle 3 in a nutshell. There are two, sort of, different concepts to deal with in Principle 3 and this will be probably fairly controversial for a lot of, sort of, educators but those two concepts are...   0:16:28.9 AS: Bring it on John.   0:16:30.4 JD: Standardized testing and grading. And the prescription is actually different for each of those things if you're following W. Edwards Deming's teachings. And I think that calls to attention an important point with all of this stuff this principle for sure. But all the principles. You really have to do close reading of the 14 Principles because Dr. Deming chose his words very carefully. And I think, you know, when you say, you know, stop over-reliance on standardized testing or abolish grading. A lot of people's initial reactions is probably going to be to scoff or laugh. And I think, you know, I think that's really just a demonstration of how far away they are from the standards that he demanded.   0:17:22.3 JD: So a lot of people might hear this and say oh this is fluffy stuff or something like that. He must not want real quality to exist and he was actually saying the exact opposite. So if we start with the standardized testing part, you know, when I think of... Is Deming saying that we should abolish inspection in the form of standardized tests or assessments in general? And I would say no. Of course not. And I think without assessment we are not able to answer the critical question, how are we doing? So assessments in and of themselves are useful I think. But I think we're overly reliant specifically on, sort of, mass inspection style standardized testing like in the form of state testing as the, sort of, key way that we're trying to ensure that there's quality throughout the education system.   0:18:26.0 AS: It's interesting because I'm thinking about in the case of a business, inspection is an internal activity that has happened in the past, and our objective is to get rid of that and build quality into the process and the system. But as a business, you're ultimately judged by the quality and you know, value that your product provides. And you'll instantly get the customer feedback by looking at the revenue that you're getting or not getting when you bring that product to market. Whereas in the case of education, what my question to you is, is the signal that we get from business, from the customer. Like, it's just so in your face you go start up a company, you put a million dollars in it, and you don't get any revenue. You think, oh my God, I really messed up. Or you've got a defect in something and it causes a recall and a big cost and, you know, a lot of damage to your reputation. It's just right there in the revenue numbers. But is there a disconnect in that for education? Or is there something that I'm missing in education?   0:19:42.8 JD: I don't, I don't think there's a disconnect there. One, every day a student, let's say a 10 year old student goes home and their parent says, how was school today? Do you like your teacher? Those may be a little more qualitative but they're pretty powerful, you know, 'cause you're getting this report back, every single day. In our case in our specific case where I work at United Schools Network in Columbus, we're a public charter network, and so there are no kids that are assigned to us by geographic boundaries. So we have to go out and recruit every student, sort of, in a grassroots way, knock on doors, make calls, send mail, do tours and open houses, those types of things. And so if people aren't satisfied with our school program, they literally walk out the door to another school. They have other schools they can go to. That's pretty powerful as well, that enrollment factor, that would be a little bit different in a traditional public school. But they... People do... When you think about going and buying a house, for example, one of the first things most people do is check out the school system. Or...   0:20:54.4 AS: My parents specifically, you know, looked at that when we moved to the town that we moved to in Ohio. And my dad's work was not in Ohio, it was in Detroit and other areas, but he ended up, you know, he was traveling as a salesman, but he ended up choosing, my mom and dad chose that town because of the reputation of that school. And so, yeah.   0:21:15.4 JD: Yeah, yeah. And really when you think about Principle 3 too, and specific to standardized testing, it, you know, the way I'm interpreting Deming's Principle 3 and then applying for education - it's not, it's calling for the elimination of the dependence on standardized and other types of tests as the sole measure of quality, not necessarily for their elimination altogether.   0:21:42.4 AS: What damage does...I mean, for those, there's a lot of people that may be listening or viewing that think, wait a minute, I mean, standardized testing is what it's all about. I mean, I want everybody in the school system to be tested on the same thing so I can figure out, you know, which one's doing a good job, which one's not, which students, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So just for a moment, if you could just explain why standardized testing, what are the flaws with standardized testing?   0:22:07.0 JD: Well... Well a big thing is I think there's a big difference between mass testing as an attempt to provide, you know, sort of the customer or the student or the family with something they won't complain about, and the use of assessments to provide guidance toward improvement of, you know, a learning process. And I think, you know, too often or not, we're focused on the former and not the latter, right? So I think standardized testing, let's say state testing I think can provide some useful data hypothetically, but what often happens is it gets used in all these other ways.   0:22:53.8 JD: It's sort of this mass inspection through testing, it's costly. A lot of times, you know, it's unproductive. It basically sort of sorts out sort of good from bad, but doesn't really contribute to progress, right? Just , sort of,year after year low score or the low scoring schools, sort of, score low and the high scoring schools score high, right. I think another thing, another problem with, sort of, mass standardized testing at the population level is that it sort of introduces this idea that there's an acceptable level of defectives, right? Because in most states, there's, sort of,some goal for the percent of students that are gonna be proficient on state tests. In Ohio for grades three through eight, that goal is 80% of the kids will be proficient, and that's acceptable. But then that also means that one in five students, 20% aren't meeting that standard. And that sort of, you sort of lose sight that there's [laughter] this whole bucket of kids over here that you know, you can meet the goal, but you're really leaving behind a whole sort of a significant minority of the students taking the test.   0:24:21.9 JD: I think there's also this, sort of,direct contradiction to the philosophy of continual improvement. You know, the Deming philosophy is to build quality into the process in the first place. And that quality doesn't come from this inspection mechanism. You have to go upstream to improve the teaching and learning processes. And I think something like classroom assessments are a much better tool for identifying these upstream processes. And that's kind of a cool analogous to what you were talking about. You know, in businesses where there is inspection that is happening sort of at the local level, and there's not, sort of,like a regulatory or government agency doing that work for a private business.   0:25:07.4 AS: It's interesting that you highlight the word dependence and when you talked about it earlier, and if you think about what we're being told by Dr. Deming is to focus, shift our focus from the end of the, or the output of the system to the input and the processes of the system. And I think that that, you know, helps us to frame, it doesn't necessarily mean that we absolutely no longer do any inspection and there's no more testing. But what the important thing is, is we've got to shift our focus to the beginning of the process rather than the end. And I suspect most, you know, senior politicians and government officials are just focused on the end, just get the result. Come on.   0:25:52.7 JD: Right. Right Yeah. I think, sort of, to capture this, you know, Deming said, this system of sort of make and inspect, if it's sort of applied to toast, it would be expressed sort of, you burn I'll scrape, right? So that's, we've sort of already burnt the toast, so to say, and we're scraping it by sort of saying, "Oh, well we have the state testing system, that's got how we're gonna improve things." And really alls we're doing is scraping the toast.   0:26:21.2 AS: So let's talk...   0:26:23.1 JD: Oh, sorry, go ahead.   0:26:23.5 AS: I was gonna say, I wanna hear your thoughts on grading next, but good.   0:26:28.2 JD: Yeah this is where things...   0:26:29.4 AS: You got more on standardized testing, feel free.   0:26:29.8 JD: No, no, No. This is a good segue. You know, I think in that turn to grading, it gets a little even more controversial probably because Deming didn't suggest that we merely cease dependence on grades. He said we should abolish them. And again, this is where in, sort of, credibility as a practitioner, those 50 years as a professor, he did this, he did not, he did not issue grades to his students.   0:27:00.7 JD: I think it's really worth noting here, this has nothing to do with making things easier for students. It doesn't have anything to do with low-scoring students' self-esteem. Has nothing to do with that. Instead, it's, this idea is based on this more sort of fundamental premise. And this is really key. We want students to experience success and failure on schoolwork as information rather than reward and punishment. And grades themselves are inherently about experience things as reward and punishment. And that really comes... Those ideas come from author and, sort of, social science researcher, Alfie Kohn, who many Deming practitioners and followers would be aware of Alfie's work as it relates to education and parenting and cooperation and competition and those types of things. And I think one of the things that, sort of, pulled me into this way of thinking when... I think it's in this book called Punished by Rewards. He did this... Alfie Kohn did this comprehensive review of the research literature on grades. And it really compared students who got grades to those who didn't. And he found these pretty robust differences. Three of them. So the first one is that kids who are graded tend to become less interested in the topic they're studying. I think that's really important. This includes, actually, the specific topic, as well as the, sort of, subject area more generally, such as math or writing compared you know, to students who got the identical assignment but with no grades involved.   0:29:00.1 JD: Second thing is that kids who are graded, when they have a choice to pick, they pick the easiest possible task. Because if the point is to get a high grade, it's only rational to pick the easiest book to read or the easiest assignment to do. So what that tells us is that grades, sort of, inherently lead to kids avoiding intellectual risk taking. That's problematic. And then the final thing, the third thing is that kids who are graded are more likely to think in a superficial or, sort of, shallow fashion. So they're more likely to ask questions like, "Do we have to know this?" as opposed to more thoughtful questions about the content itself. So...   0:29:41.7 AS: And just to highlight, is that book called Ungrading: Why Rating Students Undermines Learning, and What to Do Instead?   0:29:50.3 JD: No, this is Alfie Kohn's "Punished by Rewards."   0:29:52.9 AS: "Punished by Rewards." Okay, that's another book that he did a forward to. Okay, I see.   0:29:57.7 JD: Yeah.   0:29:57.9 AS: Okay, "Punished by Rewards." I'm looking for it. And I know everybody could search for that too. So, keep going.   0:30:03.5 JD: Yeah. And it's got a longer subtitle about gold stars and things like that. But I think fundamentally, it's this displacement of the, sort of, core priority from learning to the grade that's at a heart, that's at the heart of both Deming and Alfie Kohn's philosophy in this area. I think Deming went as far as to say that the specific losses from grading practices are "unknown and unknowable, but likely catastrophic." [chuckle] So he didn't mince words there. So just sort of recapping that one, it's you know cease dependence on standardized testing to get to quality. And then he is saying abolish grading, because it does so much to put kids on the path to, sort of, gaming the system, shifting the focus from the learning itself to trying to get the reward that comes with a high grade or this thing or that thing that's handed out as a reward for high grades.   0:31:15.0 AS: Got it. "Punished by Rewards."   0:31:16.6 JD: "Punished by Rewards."   0:31:16.7 AS: It's the 25th edition that's come out, "The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes."   [laughter]   0:31:24.0 JD: Yep, that's the one. That's the one. It's a heavy read. It's worthwhile. It's a good read. It's... Yeah.   0:31:30.2 AS: It comes as an audio book too, so that could be, read by the author. So, interesting one.   0:31:35.3 JD: Absolutely.   0:31:35.8 AS: I'm gonna check that out. All right.   0:31:37.3 JD: That's a good one. It's a commitment.   0:31:40.1 AS: So how do we wrap this up?   0:31:43.2 JD: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think again, I think a key thing to, sort of, understand is, sort of, we're studying these 14 Principles, one or two at a time. But anybody listening to this, I think it's really important not to lose sight that these things are mutually supportive. It's a System of Principles, and you have to have all 14 connected together in addition to the System of Profound Knowledge. That's why this gets so hard. You have to understand all of this. And you can't just put it together like a recipe or, you know, pick this one. I can get behind ceasing dependence on standardized testing, but I can't get behind abolishing grading, right? You can't do it like that. You can't disconnect these things. They're all sort of tied back to the underlying philosophy.   0:32:38.3 JD: So I think that's a really important thing. And, you know, because it's not a program or, you know, a project to be implemented, it really requires a, sort of, neverending commitment to both learning and quality. But it is discontinuous. You don't have to do everything at once. You can't do everything at once. Instead, what this allows you to do when you start to understand some of the methods is you start to understand, okay, what is our system capable of on any number of fronts? And then we can set more realistic goals together to, sort of, step towards improvement, real quality. So that's, sort of, what I would take from this entire distillation of the 14 Principles.   0:33:27.2 AS: And I would wrap up by saying, you know, there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that most people don't see. [laughter] There's... We see what's in front of us, but the truth is, by starting to adopt the principles, what's happening is you're just trying to make a transformation. And part of that transformation is that you're seeing the opportunities in the world that you didn't see in the past. And conventional thinking, what we've been taught in the past has given us our perspective. But when you start to remove the blinders and say, "what would happen if we remove grading? What would happen if we ceased dependence on standardized tests?" And we said, "We are gonna look at other ways of doing this."   0:34:09.6 AS: What would happen if we really started to adopt this philosophy and the System of Profound Knowledge to really set a long-term direction? What you are gonna find is so much unfolds. And so today's discussion, just to kind of wrap up, adopting, Principle 2, adopting the new philosophy, talking about the teaching process, understanding variation with the ultimate goal of improving, and improving the outcome for students. And ultimately that's a transformation that your organization can go through. The other one is Principle 3, which is ceasing dependence on inspection to achieve quality.   0:34:51.2 AS: And you really focused in on: hey, standardized tests and grading, which I think is a challenge for everybody to think about. If you are saying that so strongly, and Deming was saying that also there's gotta be something there, right? And ultimately, as you said, the product of education is high quality learning and, it doesn't say, completely get rid of any kind of tests or any kind of assessment. But I think that what you are also trying to get us to do is look at the beginning of the process and then use feedback that we are getting through tests and assessments to go back and improve the beginning of the process. And ultimately, I think, I would end my summary of what you said with, of this discussion with what you said about, that you want students to experience success and failure as information, not reward and punishment. Anything you would add to that summary?   0:35:49.0 JD: Yeah, the only thing I would say is, a disclaimer. I certainly have not figured this all out, and I work in a system and we have not abolished grading, for example. Because you, another thing you have to do is you have to design a replacement that has to be a part of the process. So in the book, I suggest some questions. I don't suggest necessarily an alternative system. I haven't got to that point with grading, but I have a series of questions people can ask to start to think about what their grading policy is. So it's a process, I'm not, I definitely don't have it all figured out. I'm still working on it.   0:36:26.4 AS: Yeah. And, I'll just wrap up that last bit right there and say that if you were in your own environment where you weren't under government regulation or you weren't required to do this or that, you don't have to have a replacement. So for instance, in my case, in my coffee business, we just heard so much negative about the performance appraisal system that eventually we just, like, we are gonna stop and people ask, "well, what are we gonna do instead?" And I said, "I don't care what we are gonna do instead." This is, we've already evaluated that this is bad. Everybody's saying it, we know it, we've learned that, we've seen it internally. So our first job is to stop what is not working. Now, it would be a dream if I could replace it with something amazing that is working, but wouldn't we all already have that? So sometimes we are caught into this system that this thinking that we have to have a substitute or new way. And that's not always the case. But when you are under a lot of constraints, then, you are kind of forced to that. So I just wanted to open people's minds to that. And, anything you would add to that before I close?   0:37:38.4 JD: No, that's really interesting. I... I'd love to hear more about how that's gone since you guys did that.   0:37:44.1 AS: Yeah, it's okay. We never really done a replacement. We did it a long time ago and we never really...   [overlapping conversation]   0:37:48.6 JD: That's cool.   0:37:49.5 AS: So our, I mean our replacement is feedback, coaching, sitting down, having meetings and, but we don't, and when it comes to compensation, we came to some, different conclusions that we wouldn't compensate people for their individual performance. The compensation would be related to the performance of the company with a very clear system of how the success of the company comes up in additional profit and how that's allocated to each person based upon, first their salary. So there's a market component, the market rate component, then based upon their years of service, which we want to reward, and then based on a fixed amount so that people who aren't making the biggest salaries in the place still always get something, that's meaningful to them. So there's lots of alternatives and, let's keep thinking about it. And that's, I think what you bring to the whole Deming sphere is to start thinking about that in education.   0:38:48.6 AS: So John, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. Also, you can find John's book Win-Win, Dr. W Edward Deming, the system of Profound Knowledge and the Science of Improving Schools on Amazon. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work" and that counts in education.

Alfie Kohn is an American author and lecturer in education, parenting, and human behavior. The author of fourteen books and hundreds of articles, he is a proponent of progressive education and a strong critic of competition and rewards. Kohn has been described by Time magazine as “perhaps the country's most outspoken critic of education's fixation on grades [and] test scores.”

"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn delves into the concept of intrinsic motivation, suggesting that rewards can actually be counter-productive, undermining our inherent drive to learn and explore. While primarily focused on humans, this compelling theory has implications for dog training. Traditionally, reward-based training has been a staple in teaching our canine companions. But should we be wary of over-relying on treats and praise? This question leads us back to the concept of intrinsic motivation. It's undeniable that dogs possess inherent drives, such as the drive to explore their environment or to play. These intrinsic drives can and should be harnessed in training. Shifting our focus to nurturing these natural instincts, rather than overwhelming our dogs with extrinsic rewards, could result in a more engaging and satisfying learning experience. This approach encourages dogs to participate not just for the promise of a treat but due to an intrinsic desire to engage, learn, and please. "Punished by Rewards" nudges us to reconsider the balance between extrinsic rewards and intrinsic motivation in dog training. By placing emphasis on the latter, we can tap into our dogs' natural instincts, leading to more effective and enriching training outcomes. Check out an older episode we did called, Asked to leave a dog club Further details looking for great dog trainers and supporters of the canine paradigm? Below is a vast array of people and business's who stand by us, donate to our running costs and do great things for the canine community. Glenn runs and has almost everything canine related at, Canine Evolution or Pet Resorts Australia Pat has a full range of coaching and dog training services at Operant Canine You can support our show and get extra content right here on our Patreon page. Everything goes into keeping the show running and we love all the wonderful people who are part of that community. If you're not sure how, just ask us. You can get our full range of our Merch at our Teespring store here You can help us by spreading the word amongst the canine community or even suggesting a special guest to interview. If you need to find out how to listen to our podcast, go here We have a YOUTUBE channel that you can subscribe to now If you enjoyed the podcast, please review us on Itunes, spotify and any other podcast directory Details on joining the IACP can be found here. If you're not in it you should be! Understand? Check out Dogs Playing for Life! A rescue process changing dogs lives across the USA For more details on how to help our friends at Peggy's Promise, you can find all the details on how to do that on their website. They are our rescue charity of choice. Support our supporters Narelle Cooke's raw feeding guide for dogs here. Narelle has her own podcast on all podcast directories called Natural Health for people and pets. Check it out in person. Looking for the best, human grade supplement range for your dogs? Check out Canine Ceuticals. You can also see her on Pooches at play with Lara Shannon SHOW SPONSOR Jason Firmin Einzweck Dog quip SHOW SPONSOR The motorcycle dog kennel by Rowdy Hound SHOW SPONSOR Professional dog training services DanKroft K9 SHOW SPONSOR Daycare and training from the heart dog training SHOW SPONSOR Dog training all styles in Adelaide Dog Club SA SHOW SPONSOR Our beloved friend and regular contributor, Birdy O'Sheedy can be found at birdyosheedy.com and you can see her baby puppy on her instagram HUGE thanks to all our contributing artists. Please support their works Jane StuartAvery KellerZoie Neidy

The development of character is a big topic we talk about in education, especially in light of all the behavior challenges that seem to be increasing in schools.   This week on That's SO EDVOLUTIONARY we unpack the role of the environment on human behavior.  And we are joined by some big experts: Simon Sinek and Alfie Kohn.  Okay joined is a "loose" term.  We play some clips of their brilliance to better understand some invisible forces that impact how humans behave and why kids might be struggling so much right now regardless of their "character".  And we have good news: there are some things we can do about it if we are willing to face the part we need to play. Resources, speakers, etc mentioned in this episode:Simon Sinek excerptsAlife Kohn excerptsOther links:About usEDVOLUTIONARY WebsiteFollow us on INSTAGRAMJoin our weekly newsletter to never miss an episode!  https://www.edvolutionary.com/join  Sign up for a FREE T.E.A.C.H. Hub account where you can access all the resources we share each week! Follow us on Instagram Follow us on Tik Tok Visit our TPT Store Visit our website If you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and leave a review! It helps other people find us. :)

This week's episode is sponsored by: Carry your creativity with Erin Lane Bags! Whether you show your fiber fandom with the woolly wonder Sheepleverse, or dive into history with the Curiosities collection, our project bags, totes, and hook and needle organizers are at the ready to keep your hobby happy.       Have you ever had to frog because you forgot a step several rows back? Or lost your spot because you dropped your magnet board or lost track with your highlighter tape? Instead of wrestling with paper, use the knitCompanion app. It keeps you on track so you can knit more and frog less. knitCompanion works with ALL your patterns and is available for Apple, Android, and Kindle Fire Devices       Are you feeling dis-GRUNT-eled about your stash? Are you browsing Insta-HAM looking for knitting inspiration? Is color "kind of a PIG deal" in your life? Oink Pigments offers over one hundred forty PIG-ture perfect colorways to make you SQUEAL with delight. For a limited time only, bring home the bacon with code KNITMORE and get fifteen percent off in-stock yarns and fibers at oinkpigments dot com. Shop soon, because these pigs will FLY!     When was the last time you received a gift and were truly surprised? Surprised like someone had crawled inside your brain and pulled out the EXACT thing that would make you squeal with delight? That's what it's like to be a member of Twice Sheared Sheep's Surprise Box Club. And 250 new slots just opened for their 2023 club! Make this year a year of joy with 2 seasonal boxes delivered right to your hot little hands with exactly what you were wishing for; awesome knitting tools, luscious yarn, and surprise knitting gifts you didn't even know to ask for. Grab your slot before they sell out again! Visit Twiceshearedsheep.com     On the needles :(0:37) Gigi at Jasmin's house knitting: socks for Andrew  working on stripey socks  Jasmin has started a Dipole Beanie by Chin Matthews in Seismic Yarn's butter sock in the “Escape” colorway. “Compassion Collection where 20% of gross sales will be donated to an organization that supports a marginalized community.  As a Pride inspired colorway, it only makes sense that the donations go to The Trevor Project, an organization that provides crisis intervention and suicide prevention to LGBTQIA+ youth.” Gigi: working on the second meadowland baby blanket, working on the the fourth triangle . Very potato chippy.  Jasmin started her For Fox Sake pullover by Maxim Cyr in Lisa Souza SW “Squashblossom” and Neighborhood Fiber Co for the contrast colors. ⅓ through the yoke. Making notes on my pattern in KnitCompanion, since I can't comfortably do it in Ravelry.   Punished by Rewards, Alfie Kohn   Jasmin is nearly done with the body of the second Geometry by Minimi Knit Design in Mitchell's Creations yarn "Bayou" colorway Jasmin's “worm” project progress ; Tulip I-cord machine Jasmin started a Vertizontal Slouch hat in some aged self-striping yarn   Events:(21:43) Check out our Live at Stitches at Home!  Today is trans day of visibility  Give to the Trevor project Write to your reps about anti-trans legislation and discrimination  Give your trans friends cookies. Or cake.  Mend it March   Blankets     Mother Knows Best:(28:42) You don't have to finish something you don't like   When knitting attacks:(36:17) Gigi Meadowlands blanket & Jasmin's Verizontal Slouch  Knit more, know more :(42:27) A segment about Persian culture, history, or just generally cool stuff about Persian people. Protests are ongoing, 260 days. Tahdig sandwiches! And Sew on:(45:40) Gigi: Fabric Analysis 2   Need to do a research project, and Power Point presentation Jasmin: Patterns for wedding reception outfits Jasmin- Dr Seuss quilt for a rainbow baby 

Charlotte Mason advised that we shouldn't use external motivators  to make children learn. She said “[grades], prizes, places, rewards, punishments, praise, blame, or other inducements are not necessary to secure attention, which is voluntary, immediate and surprisingly perfect” without them. ( A Philosophy of Education, p. 7.) But is this true today? Are rewards really that bad? How will our kids behave and learn if we don't give them a little incentive to motivate them? And what can we do instead? To help answer these questions I've asked Alfie Kohn to chat with me today. Alfie Kohn is the author of fourteen books on education, parenting, and human behavior, including PUNISHED BY REWARDS (1993/2018), THE SCHOOLS OUR CHILDREN DESERVE (1999), UNCONDITIONAL PARENTING (2005), THE HOMEWORK MYTH (2006), and THE MYTH OF THE SPOILED CHILD (2014). He has written for most of the leading education periodicals and has appeared twice on “Oprah.” Time magazine described him as “perhaps the country's most outspoken critic of education's fixation on grades and test scores.” A strong supporter of public schooling, Kohn works with educators and parents, speaking regularly at national conferences. He lives (actually) in the Boston area and (virtually) at www.alfiekohn.org. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jessica9025/support

We can't discuss the big idea of authority without addressing rewards and punishments. Do they actually contribute to our goal of developing moral, disciplined, and curious kids? What are the temporal and spiritual effects of extrinsic motivation? And if we shouldn't use extrinsic motivators, what is the better way to motivate children? I'll answer these questions and more on this episode. Check back next week for a bonus episode with Alfie Kohn, the author of Punished by Rewards! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jessica9025/support

When Kevin Burkart dove into a murky lake to find a lost wedding ring, he did it for nothing. But did he really gain something much more? In this episode of Sideways, Matthew Syed explores our preoccupation with rewards and their impacts. With author and lecturer Alfie Kohn, Headteacher of Barrowford Primary Rachel Tomlinson, Felicia Schaefer and Kevin Burkart. Presenter: Matthew Syed Producer: Leigh Meyer Series Editor: Katherine Godfrey Sound Design and Mix by Naomi Clarke A Novel production for BBC Radio 4

In this, the first in a series of episodes on Awakening Your Inner Deming, Andrew talks with Dr. Bill Bellows about his journey. He started with Taguchi, read his way through other quality "gurus", and finally found Deming in unexpected places - solving big problems in space shuttles along the way! 0:00:02.1 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz. I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm here with featured guest Bill Bellows. Bill, are you ready to share your Deming journey? 0:00:15.7 Bill Bellows: I am ready. I've got my seatbelt on, crash protection devices. I'm ready to go, Andrew. [chuckle] 0:00:23.3 AS: And I am ready indeed. So let me introduce you to the audience. Bill's a 35+ year specialist in the field of quality and engineering management. In addition to adjunct professor roles, he is president of InThinking Services, partnering with clients to facilitate the understanding and application of the Deming philosophy. So, Bill, can you tell us a bit about how you first came to even learn about the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming and what hooked you? 0:00:57.8 BB: Well, I was minding my own business. No. Actually, I finished my graduate studies in 1983 and went to work in the aerospace industry with a sense that I wasn't gonna... [chuckle] I wasn't quite sure I was gonna like it. I greatly enjoyed what I was doing in the field in graduate school, and the work I was to be doing in industry was very similar. So I felt okay, but it didn't take long before I just didn't like it. And I found myself teaching some college classes and then wondering what I wanted to do. And it took about... Two years after I was working at this company, I took a class in problem solving and decision making. A one-week class. And I loved it. I started looking at everything through this lens of a model for decision making, a model for problem solving. 0:02:13.4 BB: And shortly thereafter, I was approached by the training director of the company. We were growing leaps and bounds in terms of business and employment. And this guy came in and was really cool in terms of bringing us what he thought was some really professional development training. And he knew I was excited by this one-week course. And he said, "Bill, how'd you like to be the person in engineering trained in that and to teach this course?" And I was like, "Yeah. Yeah. Sign me up." So I went away for a two-week train the trainer, very intensive training. And what was interesting is I was the only one in the room, two dozen people that wasn't an HR and wasn't a trainer. I didn't know how to train... I was gung ho on the material, but I did not know what it was like to get in front of an audience. And in fact, the instructors used to kid me that I was almost afraid to move beyond the podium. I just wanted to hide behind it. 0:03:17.0 BB: And so I came out of that having been... I have to we prepare for the next day, five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Next thing you know, we're preparing these one hour long teachers. And I love... I liked it. And then back at work, the plan was that, given this role as the auxiliary instructor for this material, when people in engineering, my organization, have a need for this training to be used, I'd be called upon. And that was really cool. It got me associated with people I wasn't working with, and it was a much more exciting than what I was doing. And Lo and behold, the guy in training, the director says, "Hey, you know this... " He mentioned Deming's name, and I was a sponge. And I really respected what he was doing. And he gave me... He introduced me to Deming's work. And I remember, I think it was Quality, Productivity and Competitive Position. And I looked at that and I thought, "Okay." 0:04:30.4 BB: But then going back to the problem, we'll come back to that. That was my exposure to Dr. Deming's name. But in parallel, I was working on a very big problem on the... On our number one product, which were gas turbine engines, you could think of as jet engines, for applications in the US Army's battle tank. And we were making 120 of these a month. And I mean, it was a big, big... It was the biggest business of the company. And once or so a year, there'd be a major crisis. We can't ship hardware and the Army would come in and say, "Stop production until you solve this." And I had been dragged into some of those before. And that kind of got me in the realm of, "Hey, why don't you go off and take this training?" So now I'm not sitting in the back of the room. Now I'm in the front of the room but leading the facilitation of these techniques for problem... Mostly problem solving. What is a problem? The car won't start. It used to work. 0:05:38.5 BB: And so we're working on one big problem. And it was... It had incredible relevance relative... This is the height of the Cold War, Andrew. This is '87, '88 timeframe. And there was reason to believe by the Army that the majority of the battle tanks had a problem. And those tanks were the front line of defense of the allied forces in Europe. And so, we were running tests 24/7 trying to solve this, solve this, solve this, solve this, solve this, and we weren't going anywhere. And at one of the meetings, once a month, somebody had to go explain to the army, essentially our lack of progress. At one of those meetings, somebody said General Motors makes the transmissions for the tanks, and whenever they have an issue like this, they use this thing called Taguchi methods. So we're gonna contact General Motors and ask for their help and you're gonna send somebody then in Indianapolis to find out what it is and is it relevant. 0:06:49.8 BB: And so I go to this meeting and I learn about these goings-on, and I turn to the manager of the tank engine program. And I said, "So who's gonna go to Indianapolis?" And he said, "You are." And I looked at him dumbfounded and I said, "Why me?" He says, "You're the problem-solving guy." He says, "I want you to go." And Andrew, I had no interest in going. I was looking for reasons why it made no sense. And in the back of my mind anytime I get into a situation where I'm not happy with whatever it is, I look for something positive to make it appeasing. And believe it or not, I didn't wanna go to Indianapolis, but I thought, but I can go to the Indy 500 Museum, which a neighbor did years ago, and if nothing else, I can go to the Indy museum. And that's really what I was looking forward to, is going to the Indy museum 'cause I thought this meeting was just gonna be a waste of time. 0:07:49.7 BB: And I go into the meeting and I'm... And this is what hooked me on Taguchi then we'll come back to Deming. I go into the meeting and there were these transmission division's top people in Taguchi methods. Well, their senior people, their top most person had recently left the transmission division to go work for a new part of GM called the Saturn Corporation. And I'm thinking, holy cow, your top Taguchi guy is at Saturn, which I knew about. So now I'm thinking, 'cause prior to going out, I did a literature search. We didn't have the internet and I pulled up a bunch of stuff and it was just a mishmash. But when he said, "Our top guy who wrote this book... " and he showed me the book, "went to the Saturn Corporation," I'm thinking, now my ears are perking up. 0:08:56.4 BB: And then he says the other thing that's funny here. They brought in their chief transmission designer and he looked at the drawings of the parts that were failing in the engine. And he says, "This looks like a German design." I don't know anything about design, but he looks at the drawings and he says, "This looks like a German design." And I said, "It is a German design." In fact, I said, "The people who designed this engine designed the very first German jet engine in the late '30s for Hitler." I said, "It's the same team of people." And so anyway, he looked at it and he had some ideas, but that wasn't why I was there. But then the other two guys were there, and the first question they asked me is, "How do you come up with ideas for what's wrong with this tank engine?" I said, "Everyone's got an idea." And I said, "And what if that doesn't work?" He says, "Here's what we do. Somebody comes up with an idea and every idea we come up with, we write it down and we go run a 10-hour test at a thousand bucks an hour, which I thought was expensive. 0:10:01.5 BB: And then at the end of the test, we decide to go forward or not. Are we onto something or not? And he said, "What if it's not?" And I said, "Well, then somebody's always got an idea, somebody's always got an idea. We're running test, we're running test. Well, why are we here?" Because we're running through ideas, running through ideas, and we ain't finding anything. So then he says, "What do you measure?" And it's so funny. I don't know anything about gears other than the gears have teeth. I'm a heat transfer guy. [chuckle] So I said, "After each test, somebody goes to the manager in the gear group and shows them the gears that contact each other," and he holds 'em up and he says, they look good or they look bad. He says, "How does he do that?' I says, "He just looks at 'em." He says, "He doesn't measure anything?" I said, "No, he just holds them up to the light and he says, that looks worn, or that doesn't look worn." 0:11:01.3 BB: And I said, "Based on that decision, we run the next test." Well, he says, "Here's our first piece of advice." He said, "Stop thinking of it as being it's worn or it's not." He said, "It's really shades of grey." And he says, "What I want you to do is measure each tooth on each gear before and after." He said, "You're throwing away a lot of information based on this measurement." And I thought, okay, okay. And I said, how do you do it? Blah, blah, blah. And I went back about a week later based on what he shared with me and we put together a test plan that solved that problem in about two weeks later. And so now I'm all over Taguchi's work, I am all over Taguchi's work, all over Taguchi's work, and it became my next look. 0:11:49.0 AS: What does Taguchi have to do with just measuring versus eyeballing something? 0:11:54.9 BB: Well, that's a good question. I'd say Taguchi's work in that situation was the use of fractional factorial testing, but the issue was that we were treating the data as black and white, which is, in terms of statistics, it is a poor way of doing things, but that's... It wasn't... 0:12:19.0 AS: So either you accept or reject as opposed to measuring? 0:12:22.1 BB: Yeah. And I was... I took an undergraduate class in statistics and I just... It wasn't a field I didn't know that much about. So I just bought into it and he just brought it to my attention, and I said, okay, and it kind of makes sense where he's coming from, but the... So really, the biggest thing that came out of the meeting was not so much... It was driven by you gotta look at this Taguchi guy and it was a combination of running tests using Taguchi's ideas, which would've included using variable data and not... What was it called? Category data. And so that, it was just incredible. This was a problem that was going on with incredible high visibility at the Pentagon, and it got us out of a big jam. And we just couldn't, the answer was right in front of us, but we couldn't see it based on not so much the testing method, the evaluation method. So then that got me in love with Dr. Taguchi's work, so... 0:13:40.4 AS: Let's stop there for a second and think about the listeners for a second, and the viewers. How would you describe the lesson that you learned from that experience? 0:13:56.2 BB: I say a really big lesson is that a simple shift in our thinking, kind of like putting on glasses allowed us to see what we couldn't see that was right in front of us. 0:14:11.7 AS: And it happened by you going outside of the organization also, it sounds like. 0:14:15.7 BB: Oh inside... Oh, the organization. See, I had no reason to challenge the organization. These were the gear people. I'm a heat transfer person, so I don't challenge the gear people. What is that all about? That's why I'm just going along with the guy says, "What do you measure?" I said, again, I was out of my element relative to how organizations operate, out of my element relative to... Now I just looked at that and say, they're the experts. Why would I... I mean, [chuckle] I was just gullible. And I don't think that's uncommon. Where I worked, I found that there were fields in which everyone was an expert. And then there were fields in which... Meaning that if you... Where I worked in Connecticut, if you had some skill with statistics, people would get outta your way and they would just treat you like you walked on water, even though you were full of it. They just bowed to Andrew because you... 0:15:33.2 BB: And so I think it was something like that. I just didn't... And again, I don't think that's uncommon in organizations. But to your point, in fact, back to your point, when I walked away from that very first meeting, and here's what was cool is, it was the two of them, the designer left the room and were in a small conference room. And here I am with two instructors and me, two instructors and one student. I had a ball. And I'm taking notes and I'm writing everything down. And I'm asking this one, asking this one, asking this one, asking this one. And the plan was I would come back in a week, take the ideas, go back, talk to the experts. Well, one of the things we did when we went back is we threw out everything we thought we knew about those experiments because every decision we had made was based on this premise of look and hold a part up to the light. 0:16:27.6 BB: So I said, all this testing is meaningless. So now we've gotta go back to the original list and go forward 'cause typically you'd think, like with Edison, you try this, try this, try this. You don't go backwards. We went backwards based on what you're talking about is that I lost trust in everything we thought we knew. So we went back to the original list, which was... And the original list was what a bunch of recent design changes. So we went back to that list that had been tested, and using a shifting from black and white data to continuum data, we discovered what no one else could see. And it just jumped right out. It was just so damn obvious what was going on, but we couldn't see it. And so that got me intrigued in Taguchi's work. I was then on a mission to learn everything I could. And I then began to see my role in the organization as the facilitator of training that I was doing, and then training in this and helping the organization on applications. 0:17:41.9 BB: And it didn't take long. We were solving some pretty big problems after that. And the VP of engineering liked what was going on. And I went to one day and I said, "I'd like a job," I said, "There's incredible opportunities for us to use this, and I'd like to be the person leading that effort." And he smiled, and... "Andrew, this is the height of TQM, this is 1988. TQM is huge." And he's kinda nodding to me. And sometime thereafter I told him, I said, well what is I brought the Taguchi people in from Detroit to do a big seminar, $30,000. And I'm in charge of bringing them in. I'm in charge of who's coming to this. I remember I went to the HR training guy and I said, "Who do I invite to this training? This is out of my league." And he gave me incredible advice, and I'm sure you've heard before, he said, "It's easier to ask... " He said, "It's easier to apologize than ask permission." 0:18:48.5 BB: He said, "You are in charge of the whole damn thing." He said, "You invite who you think needs to be there." And I was like, whoa, [laughter] And I said, when did he had to tell me that. And I had so many from engineering, so many from operations, so many from procurement, invited the people in, took the course, we were able to as part of the course show what we had done and we were on a roll. And eventually I went to the VP of engineering and I said, "This is what I wanna do." And I even... In a nice way, he and I got along really well and I said, "The job I want, I've shared with you," and I said, "And I really hope it comes to be." I said, "But if it doesn't come to be, it will be because I found that job elsewhere." [laughter] 0:19:44.0 BB: "So if I come to you and say I'm leaving, this is why." 0:19:50.0 AS: It's for that job. 0:19:50.6 BB: This is why. And then in the very same time frame that I'm out looking, looking, looking, looking, looking 'cause it would... Did not appear to be coming. And then I heard about Deming again and I heard that he was speaking about an hour away from where I worked. And at that point, I had taken an introduction to Taguchi's course, an advanced course where I drove to Detroit and self-funded a week's vacation. I was intense. And I hear about Deming speaking in the area and I thought, "Being a student of quality, I need to go find out what this is all about." So I... 0:20:28.0 AS: And what year is that and what city was it that that was happening in? 0:20:34.8 BB: Dr. Deming was speaking in February of 1990 in Danbury, Connecticut at Western Connecticut State University, and he spoke three times that day. I was there for all three and I have videotapes from the inviter, the professor. He shared with me two of the three videotapes, and one of them, the evening lecture about an hour and a half long I believe is on YouTube. I can get you that information to the link and... But Dr. Deming spoke for about an hour to the faculty, an hour to the students, and what was so cool is I attended with two colleagues from a graduate school who were in transition and I said, "Hey, there's this Deming guy appearing." He was about... He was appearing about midway between where these classmates were. So they drove and got there and I got there and we're driving around campus trying to find where this is. And what's so cool was we found the building, and found this auditorium which was empty, and as soon as we find the room, we turn, and there's Dr. Deming getting out of a limo. [chuckle] 0:21:49.9 BB: And it's about noon time, and he's with his host and all in there, and I guess they went off for lunch. So we're in the room before any... So when we found the room, we see this guy that looks like Dr. Deming. So, okay, this is the right place. So we just kind of made ourselves at home there, kind of sat. Found the place where we wouldn't be sitting kind of in the back, and he came in and started speaking, and he was entertaining. But so much of what he was saying, he was using a language that was nowhere near anything I had learned from Dr. Taguchi, who in my opinion, I was just in love with Taguchi's work. So I'm looking at Deming by comparison, I'm thinking that doesn't fit what I know from Taguchi. That doesn't fit, that doesn't fit, that doesn't fit. [laughter] So he gave pretty much the same presentation to the students and the faculty and then a little bit longer in the evening. And so much of what he said was interesting. 0:23:02.6 BB: And some of it is entertaining, I mean, entertaining in the sense that I could tell it was a joke. I mean, some of his jokes are in the context of his work and I wouldn't laugh at that 'cause I don't understand the context, but others were, so it was interesting. And then a few days later, the two guys who went with me, who lived in my hometown, I went to see them and a third classmate who got his MBA when we were getting Masters in Engineering, he showed up and he knew of Deming and he said, "So what'd you learn?" And the thing that stood out more than anything else, I said, "I don't quite... " [chuckle] I said, "I don't understand the majority of what he said." I said, "But what did stand out... " I told this classmate, I said, "I've never heard anyone speak ill of competition," 'cause Dr. Deming referenced Alfie Kohn's book, the case against competition. I can't remember the... "No Contest", right? 0:24:12.8 BB: And the guy says, "Well, what's wrong with competition?" And I said, "I don't know." I said, "All I know is he distinctly did not like it." And I'd never heard anyone... When I say people, until Deming, I've never heard anyone speak ill of competition. People always say, it brings out the best in people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but here's Deming railing against it, and that was what stuck in my mind from Tuesday through Saturday was, he doesn't like competition. 0:24:45.1 AS: And when he was talking about competition, was he talking about competition, setting up competition within your company? Or he doesn't like companies competing with each other? 0:24:54.0 BB: No, and that's a very good point. And he's... And I believe that in Deming community there's some confusion. It was hard for me to distinguish competition within the company from competition between Ford and GM. All I knew is he didn't like it. 0:25:14.4 AS: Yep. 0:25:15.0 BB: And yeah. I mean, fast-forward he's very... 0:25:17.6 AS: In America, that's just a bizarre concept. 0:25:19.9 BB: He's talking about competition... Well, he's talking about competition within the team and he would say, "Naturally, Ford and GM are gonna compete in the marketplace, so they may find opportunities to collaborate." But at that point, what just blew me away was this guy doesn't like competition. That's the only... I mean, he'd mentioned special causes and common causes. That didn't mean anything to me. I never heard those words before. So, I mean, nowadays when I go back and watch it, I can see how... What an incredible set of material he was presenting, but I didn't have anything to hold onto to be able to... I'm looking at what he's doing through a Taguchi lens, looking for the black and white and the shades of gray and some other things. But there's so much of what he was saying didn't come close. 0:26:11.9 BB: But going back to the comment of the colleague... The classmate, he said, what's wrong with the competition? I distinctly remember saying to him, I said, "I don't know." I said, "But maybe because we did okay. And graduating getting master's degree," I said, "Maybe we like competition because we won - that we did okay." And what I was also thinking about when I said that was I had a summer job in college and a factory in my hometown, and in the factory people I went to grade school with, and I was thinking of them. And so when he said,"What's wrong?" I'm thinking, I've got a PhD in mechanical engineering. I didn't drop outta high school and go work on a factory. And that's what I was doing. I'm self-reflecting on, maybe it worked for me, but maybe it didn't work for the others. And that's pretty much... And I believe in that timeframe. I mean, Dr. Deming hands out an article at that time on Profound Knowledge, two or three pages and yeah, okay. There's four elements, but I pretty much put it in the back burner. 0:27:24.0 AS: So what happened next and how did you move on in your Deming journey? 0:27:29.6 BB: Well, that was February of 1989. Later that summer, I took an advanced class in Taguchi methods, and I'm interviewing with Dr. Taguchi's company. I didn't have gray hair. I didn't have any training experience. I didn't quite fit the mold they were looking for. And so I'm trying this, and I'm just trying every opportunity, I want a job in Taguchi methods. And towards the end of the year, I met some people and they gave my resume to RocketDyne where I eventually was hired and now I'm working full-time as a Taguchi expert. You know who is an expert. If I know more than you, that makes me an expert Andrew. [laughter] 0:28:18.5 AS: One step ahead. 0:28:20.6 BB: But where Deming came back to me was 1993, The New Economics comes out, and occasionally, I go to the bookstore, that's just before Amazon. So I go to the bookstore and I was subscribing to the American Society for Quality. So I was in that community of quality practitioners learning about it. And I literally went to the bookstore... A brick and mortar bookstore, got a copy of The New Economics, and what do I do when I look at it? First thing I do, I go to the index and say, what does this guy think of Dr. Taguchi? [chuckle] And I go to the end and it's Genichi Taguchi. So I go to the page's reference, and what floored me was chapter 10, the very last chapter, the last six pages is all about Dr. Taguchi's work. And I'm thinking, I like this guy, I like this guy. 0:29:27.5 BB: So the vote of confidence in what he is talking, I'm thinking. So I think Taguchi stuff is everything and Deming's liking it too. And when I read The New Economics... So meanwhile, in Connecticut, when I was brought in to solve, help, support issues, once or twice a year, I pretty much stopped my day job, went full-time into this problem solving practitioner facilitator mode, which could take a month or two months. And then I go back to my job. Now in Connecticut, I'm the full-time problem solving guy. This is not a part-time thing. It's a full-time thing. And the exciting thing is I'm working on some very big issues, some of which were a couple months old. One in the spatial domain engine was a year and a half old. And this is exciting, but then I'm starting to realize that there's something wrong with the business model at the organization. 0:30:28.7 BB: And when I looked at Dr. Demings, when The New Economics came out, again, I had spent three years working on major problems in the special domain engine, major problems on space station hardware that RocketDyne was developing, the electric power for. I'm briefing very senior NASA people on problem solved, problem solved, problem solved. But I'm starting to hyperventilate thinking we are kept in business by being able to solve problems. The problems we don't solve, what NASA does is they call you up and they say, "Andrew, we've given you the contract to develop the engine." You're like, "Yep, yep, yep." "And we've given you the contract to produce the engine." "Yep, yep, yep, yep." "But we understand you've got a problem on this component. We're looking to have somebody else make that." 0:31:19.7 BB: And what I saw in front of me was I'm working on a problem that's a year and a half old. There's other problems on the engine. NASA's getting frustrated saying, we're gonna outsource this work to a competitor. And I'm thinking we're gonna lose the engine one component at a time. So I'm working on a big component. And before that problem was solved, a bigger dollar value component was given to a competitor. And I'm thinking one after another. So when I read The New Economics, the first thing that jumped out is, what I'm experiencing is not unique to where I work. What I read into Dr. Deming's work, my interpretation of Deming's work was kind of reinforcing that problem solving is the result of how we see the world, that we're stuck in a rut, because I'm looking and thinking... 0:32:16.7 BB: Again, the good news is I'm kept in. I'm being kept incredibly busy working on some very high visibility problems, going to very senior people at NASA headquarters to present solutions with the president of the company. I'm feeling really good. I mean, relative to having fun, but I'm thinking, but fundamentally how the company is running is not sustainable. And so, I'm looking and thinking, "I'm enjoying this. I'm keeping busy." But we shouldn't have these problems. If we understood what Deming's talking about, my interpretation was we could be preventing these problems, not solving these problems. And I'm not saying all problems, but I'm just thinking that we're behind the eight ball, and I looked at Deming's work as how to get out in front of it, not behind it. And the big part of it was we didn't understand variation. 0:33:15.9 BB: And so what I looked at it was, if you're ignoring variation, then you're... And we'll get into more detail in another session, but what I found was we didn't see the warning signs, the way it was... This goes back to the black and white, and I liken it to things are going well, which is like, your car has gas. Okay, the car has gas. Should I go get gas? No. How do I know we shouldn't get gas, Andrew? Because the car is running. 0:33:48.2 AS: The car has gas. Yeah.   0:33:50.0 BB: And so I'm thinking, "So why are people coming to me with a problem?" Because when the car is running, they don't think they need gas. [chuckle] And now I'm thinking, "If we just had gas gauges, simple devices to monitor and get away from the car has gas or it doesn't, which is the black and white thinking that I grew to, not despise, but just become aware of its limits. And now I'm realizing it, if we looked at things along a continuum, we could be preventing these problems in the first place. And then I'm thinking, "I mean, we've got an incredibly sophisticated engineers and hardware, but we're falling victim to a mindset that says the car has gas, but nobody's asking how much." But so I, from that moment on, reading Deming's book one, it was holy cow, because the riddle I was trying to solve was, why do you come to me when the car runs outta gas? 0:34:54.2 BB: And what it didn't dawn to me was why should they come see me when the car has gas? [laughter] And Deming was... Again, and I'm not saying everybody looks at Deming's ideas the same way. And we both know that's not the case, but what excited me about him at that point was that what I was dealing with was not... The solution wasn't technical. The solution was a shift in mindset. And I then very distinctly began moving from all about Taguchi to all about Deming. And what was interesting is when I started to share that influence with people, really good friends in the Taguchi community, they looked at me, some of them down their nose. Then I've...   0:35:53.3 AS: A traitor to the cause.   0:35:56.5 BB: I'm just like I had discovered a new religion, but they looked at me like, "Deming? Deming?" And I'm thinking to myself, "Well, first of all, I was, I had great... " These were really sharp people in the Taguchi community that I had greatest respect for. And I thought they'd be excited by that. And what I was sensing was kind of a weakness. And I then, from that point on, I went from the solution was Taguchi training and advanced training and blah, blah blah. And then began to think that the reason I can't get in to do these things that I wanted to do with Dr. Taguchi's work, which is focusing on things that are good and making them better. Why am I focus... I'm applying Taguchi's ideas to go from bad to good. And all the training I had is that his ideas go the other way from good to better and better and better. And I'm thinking, "I'm stuck in this rut. And Dr. Deming's giving me great insights as to how to get out of the rut." And you can tell from my excitement it was a game changer for me and a game changer for how what we did in terms of how we were deploying Taguchi's ideas and Deming's ideas where I worked.   0:37:25.0 AS: So if we go back, I mean, let's... Now that's a good breakdown of kind of your history with it. And I'm just curious, if we think about a young person right now who doesn't know much about Deming, how would you describe what they can gain from starting their Deming journey? What would you describe now? I mean, in the beginning you've described kind of simple solutions to simple problems, but there's so much more that you started discovering.   AS: Let's just talk about when I think about young people these days and I look at the management that they're learning in universities, their MBAs and all the things, and I'm looking at the KPIs and things like that, that are going on in this world, I see some strong reasons why people should pay attention to the teachings of Dr. Deming. And I'm just curious, the question I like to ask is, why Deming? Why now? BB: Yeah. I'd say my approach is to use examples with people of all ages that are new to Deming, right? So you don't have to be right out of college. But I like to look at it as how can I help you understand through questions and examples the degree to which you have the ability to see with new eyes right now, meaning that when I talked earlier about the limits of black and white thinking, versus shades of gray thinking. Shades of gray thinking is looking at a gas gauge and see the gas gauge is going from full to less to less to less. It's time to get gas while I still have gas. Black and white thinking just says I have gas. What about now? I have gas.   AS: Accept, reject. [chuckle] BB: And it's not to say that black and white thinking is bad, but it's simple versus shades of gray thinking. So what I point out to people is in our personal lives, we use both modes. Throughout the day we're in one cat... We're in one mode or the other not paying attention. And it may well be that the mode we're using is the proper mode to use in that situation. But if we became more aware of those modes, if we had the ability to flip the switch deliberately, 'cause right now what I found is I can ask you a question and get you to go into the black and white mode. You don't know that, and I'll give you another question. And to me, you're jumping between modes, you don't know it. So my strategy, is how people become aware. Why? Because what Dr. Deming's... I'll give you an incredible, a great quote that Russ Ackoff shared in a conversation with Dr. Deming, and Russ says, the... BB: And for those who don't know, Russ was a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business and he passed away about 10 years ago, or so. And he and Dr. Deming were colleagues, very deeply, deep admirers of one another, but 19 years different. Dr. Deming was 19 years older than Russ. And Russ says, "The characteristic way of management we have taught in the western world is to take a complex system, break it in the parts, and manage each part as well as possible." And then he goes on to say, "And if that's done, the system performs well." And I ask people to complete the sentence and they'll say... And actually the sentence I pose it as, "And if that's done," so the character's way of management is to take a complex and then breaking into parts manage the parts as well as possible. And if that's done, okay, how would you answer it? And they'll say, "things go well, things go well."  BB: Well, what Russ says is, "And the system will behave badly and perform well." And then that's absolutely false. And so what I then try to show to people is that what Russ is describing is what we do at work. And then, I gradually point out to them that what he is describing we should be doing is what we do at home. [chuckle] And I try to get 'em to realize that at work they're responsible for machining a whole... Delivering, converting some data from one form to another and passing it on to the next person. But they don't know what the next person does, and I point out at home, whether they're planning a vacation, planning a wedding, buying a home, they're handing off to the next person. And they are the next person, and then they are the next person. And so I try to point out to them the differences between how you would behave if you were the next person. And by comparison, what do we do at work. BB: And I try to use examples that show the incredible shortcoming of how we treat the next person at work versus how we treat the next person at home, who is me. And so I just give them the same scenario and just say, "So why at home, do we do this and at work we do this?" And then they'll wrap their heads around it. "Because at home I'm dealing with wood and at work, I use metal." And I've had that happen, people will say, "In the garage, I have... I'm working, making a project at wood, and that's why I do that at home. And at work, it's all metal." And I try to point out, "Who designs it at home?" "I do." "Who buys the materials at home?" "I do." Or the elements of whatever it is I'm making and I try to point out, "At home, you are the ones who conceive it, bring together the elements, buying them and putting 'em all together. Then you are the user, but that's not the case at work." BB: And so what I try to do back to your point is show them how much more advanced our thinking at home is in terms of how we treat the next person, me, versus what we're allowed to do, the next person. Try to point out to them is that, "At home, you, the receiver and you are receiving from you the provider, and at home, the person upstream may not be as generous. Nor will you at work be as generous for the next person downstream. So I try to use examples like that of how... And get into the realm of what does it mean to look at things as a system versus looking at things in isolation. And I find examples like that can grab their attention. But it's not uncommon with these people. I'd be learning about what they do and try to use examples from what they do and point out. BB: And again, like we were talking earlier, the difference between a shades of gray approach and a black and white approach versus, am I looking at the thing in isolation? So I try to point out those types of things. Now, I mean depending on who it is, I may look at other aspects of Dr. Deming's System of Profound Knowledge, if I think that will get me a toe into the door. AS: Yep. So let me ask you, in wrapping up, what would you say is the most influential part of Dr. Deming's teaching for your life? BB: The concept of the System of Profound Knowledge is... That has been a... That has changed my life. That there isn't a day that goes by that I don't look at things through the lens he's describing. The other thing I'll say for people that are new, to the Deming philosophy, and you come across this thing called the System of Profound Knowledge. And Dr. Deming would say, "If you have a better name, please help me." You have to call it something. And then you go to a Deming seminar and you learn there's four elements, and then you learn the psychology piece and this piece. And it's not uncommon, we go to school and we learn things a chunk at a time, a chunk at a time, a chunk at a time. And the challenge is that for people that are new to this, study the pieces in terms of Ackoff, in terms of the system of profound knowledge, if you're looking at variation. Dr. Deming's vast experience in education is all about variation and Shewhart's work. BB: But if you wanna study psychology, you have to do what Dr. Deming did, was read books on psychology that are not written by Dr. Deming. Read books on systems such as from Russ Ackoff. And so what I find is my strategy was, I mean, the simplicity of the Deming philosophy relative to the System of Profound Knowledge, no one else put together those elements like that. But what I also point out to people is you're gonna have to go beyond Deming's writings to study systems and bring it back to that focus, study psychology and bring it back to there. Now again, depending on who you're reading in, may not fit the psychology Deming's talking about. But I think a big thing is you gotta be able to go beyond The New Economics to go into depth in those areas. And what you'll find is in the beginning, we think of psychology as separate than variation. BB: And what you'll find is over time, you can't separate, and so that's what I would say is that, I know as you're coming across it and you see it for the first time and you think, "Okay, that's over there, that's over there." But don't be surprised as you continue on your Deming journey that these things come together, and then you realize that that separation is just a teaching device. And that teaching device is in every course we take, we break it in to parts and then at the end of the semester it's a whole. And that's what I would say is, what I find just breathtakingly remarkable is how that system has enabled me to think about things in a way that I would never be able to think about before. And I'm not saying I see everything, but it has enabled me to be in situations where I can turn to colleagues and say, so where do you think we're gonna go based on this decision?   BB: And we can use Dr. Deming's work to get a sense of how that might go off the rails or whatnot. And so if you think of... Dr. Deming would describe his work as a theory of management. And what is a theory? It's a prediction, so I find it's a fascinating crystal ball to look at a situation or a decision being made and start to anticipate what could happen. And I'm thinking, how can that not be invaluable to people? Yep. Well, Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for coming on the show. And I ask, do you have any parting words for the audience? BB: I'd say, if you're new to the Deming community, welcome. [laughter] It's never too late to join. And if you're part of the community, I would say don't stop learning. AS: Fantastic. That concludes another great story from the worldwide Deming community. Remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, and that is, "People are entitled to joy in work."

So many of us think “Why hasn't someone created this already?” yet so few go ahead and create it ourselves. My latest guest Jyoti Rajan Gopal is an educator who began writing picture books when she found frustratingly little diverse choices for her kindergarten class. Jyoti taps into her international upbringing and deep experience with young children to create these gems. Having published two beautiful books with loads more in the pipeline, Jyoti shares her publishing journey, starting modeling late in her career and lots more on this fun chat. A must listen, especially for writers and those with young kids in their lives! Listen below or at www.theindianedit.com and please take a second to rate us wherever you're listening so the voices of these inspiring women can be heard all over the world!SHOWNOTES FOR EPISODE 78:Find Jyoti on her website, on instagram and twitterAmerican DesiMy Paati's SarisJyoti's forthcoming booksOther Books we discussed:Watership Down by Richard AdamsTroublemakers: Lessons in Freedom from Young Children at School by Carla ShalabyThe Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us about the Relationship Between Parents and Children by Alison GopnikKindergarten: A Teacher, Her Students, and a Year of Learning by Julie Diamond Beyond Discipline: From Compliance to Community by Alfie Kohn a progressive educatorWhite Christian Privilege: The Illusion of Religious Equality in America by Khyati Joshi (“about the ways that Christianity permeates the American Constitution, American laws, American way of life”)Take Joy: A Writer's Guide to Loving the Craft by Jane Yolen (a writing book Jyoti loves) The Important Thing about Margaret Wise Brown by Mac Barnett (“a fabulously written picture book about the author Margaret Wise Brown”)The President Sang Amazing Grace by Zoe MulfordOther Favorites:Indian Raga Channel on YouTubeQuestions? Comments? Get in touch @theindianeditpodcast on Instagram !Special thanks to Varun Dhabe and the team @ Boon Castle / Flying Carpet Productions for audio post-production engineering!

Happy New Year and Welcome back to season 4 of the Raising Wildlings Podcast!In this episode, I get to chat with Alfie Kohn, the author of my all-time favourite parenting book, Unconditional Parenting.

In this episode of Freedom Lovin, Kevin continues his exploration of Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards, commenting on the important difference between intrinsic motivation and external motivation and how the former can be encouraged, rather than snuffed out by the modern education system. O post FL 202: How to Navigate The Post-Covid Clown World With Jonny Hodl apareceu primeiro em Freedom Lovin.

Are many parenting styles doing more harm than good? Alfie Kohn discusses the surprising psychology behind the widely practiced reward/punishment model of raising kids, and why we should “work with” our children instead of trying to control their behavior. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

At the beginning of our stay at a friend's house in Oregon six weeks ago, my eight-year-old daughter Carys had biked a flat mile on a mountain biking trail; when we got to a very slight incline she made it 20 feet further and then it all fell apart. She whined; she cried; she refused to go on. Later in the day, after we had both calmed down, we discussed the idea of Doing Hard Things, and we ultimately both agreed that we wanted to improve our mountain biking skills this summer.   She has done both a beginner and an intermediate level bike camp since then and her skills have dramatically improved! We did the Trail of Refusal the weekend after the beginner camp and she made it all the way around the loop, and the only complaining was because our riding companions weren't going fast enough! (I've also been riding a lot - selling my old bike for a good price enabled the purchase of a new, much lighter one and I'm now significantly faster than I was. I may need a skills camp myself next time we're in town…)   Professor Angela Duckworth discusses Doing Hard Things in her work on grittiness. A few days ago Listener Jamie, who helped me to prepare to talk with Alfie Kohn several years ago and who co-interviewed Dr. Mona Delahooke with me, sent me an article from The Atlantic that had just popped up in her newsfeed called The Case Against Grit and said “You said the same thing ages ago!”.   I was pretty sure I did say that, but I decided to check it out. Looking back at something I wrote four years ago has the potential to be pretty scary - my ideas have evolved a lot since then. Does this episode still ring true? Did I miss major issues? I discuss these ideas in a preview to this re-released episode.   And if you: Want your child to be gritty enough to succeed at what they set their minds to, but you've no idea how to teach this, or even whether you can or should teach it'; Know that an intrinsic love of learning is so important, but don't know how to help your child to develop it; Worry that you can't effectively support your child's learning because you aren't an expert and don't have a teaching credential…   …then the FREE You Are Your Child's Best Teacher workshop will help. We're getting underway now, so hop on over and register to get started. Just click the banner below!   https://yourparentingmojo.com/bestteacher/ ()

Hello everyone! Today, I am re-releasing what I believe is the one of the most important podcasts in the history of the show. Not only is it filled with honest and real world talk, it is filled with research based advice and insight from one of the premier thinkers on education today. In this episode, I sit down with Alfie Kohn and discuss a range of topics, such as why grading hurts more than it helps, why rewards do more harm than good, and why the testing obsession leads to bad teaching. I consider these the three pillars of what holds up an outdated educational model, and Alfie Kohn is the main reason for that perspective. Without a doubt, Alfie has influenced my teaching in such fundamental ways, and I know his thinking, research, and expertise will encourage you to question some of the norms of our educational climate. Alfie Kohn writes and speaks widely on human behavior, education, and parenting. The most recent of his 14 books are SCHOOLING BEYOND MEASURE…And Other Unorthodox Essays About Education (2015) and THE MYTH OF THE SPOILED CHILD: Challenging the Conventional Wisdom About Children and Parenting (2014).  Of his earlier titles, the best known are PUNISHED BY REWARDS (1993), NO CONTEST: The Case Against Competition (1986), UNCONDITIONAL PARENTING (2005), and THE SCHOOLS OUR CHILDREN DESERVE (1999). I want to let you know about a free, virtual, conference for "cool" science educators coming up on August 5th. Its the 9th ScIC Science is Cool unconference. But of course all science teachers are cool so that means everyone is invited!   It's called an unconference because they are curated based on teacher feedback and they are actually fun! Produced by the team at PocketLab, these virtual events always have a great line up of amazing speakers to fill the day. At ScIC9 on August 5th, you will hear from Kari Byron of Mythbusters fame, the Biomimicry institute, The national lab for the International Space Station, OpenSciEd, and so many more.   In the past 2 years, these "unconferences" have attracted nearly 100,000 teachers from over 200 countries around the world join. Every event is inspiring, engaging, and full of resources. To sign up for Science is Cool 9- visit thepocketlab.com/scic9 or click right here.   This episode is sponsored by Heinemann—the leading publisher of professional books and resources for educators—and their professional book, Textured Teaching: A Framework for Culturally Sustaining Practices by Lorena Escoto Germán. With Culturally Sustaining Practice as its foundation, Textured Teaching helps secondary teachers stop wondering and guessing how to implement teaching and learning that leads to social justice.  Lorena Germán shares her framework for creating a classroom environment that is highly rigorous and engaging, and that reflects the core traits of Textured Teaching: student-driven and community-centered, interdisciplinary, experiential, and flexible.  The actionable strategies Lorena uses to bring Textured Teaching values to life illuminate what is possible when we welcome all types of texts, all types of voices, and all forms of expression into the classroom. Learn more about how to become a culturally sustaining educator. Visit Heinemann.com to download a sample from Textured Teaching.