Podcast appearances and mentions of erik what

Upgrading OpenBSD, Where do Unix man pages come from?, Help for NetBSD’s VAX port, FreeBSD on Dell Latitude 7390, PFS Tool changes in DragonflyBSD, and more. NOTES This episode of BSDNow is brought to you by Tarsnap (https://www.tarsnap.com/) Headlines How to Upgrade OpenBSD and Build a Kernel (https://cromwell-intl.com/open-source/openbsd-kernel.html) Let's see how to upgrade your OpenBSD system. Maybe you are doing this because the latest release just came out. If so, this is pretty simple: back up your data, boot from install media, and select "Upgrade" instead of "Install". But maybe the latest release has been out for a few months. Why would we go through the trouble of building and installing a new kernel or other core system components? Maybe some patches have been released to improve system security or stability. It is pretty easy to build and install a kernel on OpenBSD, easier and simpler in many ways than it is on Linux. The History of man pages (https://manpages.bsd.lv/history.html) Where do UNIX manpages come from? Who introduced the section-based layout of NAME, SYNOPSIS, and so on? And for manpage authors: where were those economical two- and three-letter instructions developed? VAX port needs help (http://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/vax_port_needs_help) The VAX is the oldest machine architecture still supported by NetBSD. Unfortunately there is another challenge, totally outside of NetBSD, but affecting the VAX port big time: the compiler support for VAX is ... let's say sub-optimal. It is also risking to be dropped completely by gcc upstream. Now here is where people can help: there is a bounty campaign to finance a gcc hacker to fix the hardest and most immediate issue with gcc for VAX. Without this being resolved, gcc will drop support for VAX in a near future version. My new FreeBSD Laptop: Dell Latitude 7390 (http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2020-05-22-my-new-FreeBSD-laptop-Dell-7390.html) As a FreeBSD developer, I make a point of using FreeBSD whenever I can — including on the desktop. I've been running FreeBSD on laptops since 2004; this hasn't always been easy, but over the years I've found that the situation has generally been improving. One of the things we still lack is adequate documentation, however — so I'm writing this to provide an example for users and also Google bait in case anyone runs into some of the problems I had to address. PFS tool changes in DragonFly (https://www.dragonflydigest.com/2020/06/09/24612.html) HAMMER2 just became a little more DWIM: the pfs-list and pfs-delete directives will now look across all mounted filesystems, not just the current directory’s mount path. pfs-delete won’t delete any filesystem name that appears in more than one place, though + git: hammer2 - Enhance pfs-list and pfs-delete (http://lists.dragonflybsd.org/pipermail/commits/2020-June/769226.html) Enhance pfs-list to list PFSs available across all mounted hammer2 filesystems instead of just the current directory's mount. A specific mount may be specified via -s mountpt. Enhance pfs-delete to look for the PFS name across all mounted hammer2 filesystems instead of just the current directory's mount. As a safety, pfs-delete will refuse to delete PFS names which are duplicated across multiple mounts. A specific mount may be specified via -s mountpt. Beastie Bits BastilleBSD Templates (https://gitlab.com/bastillebsd-templates) Tianocore update (https://www.dragonflydigest.com/2020/06/08/24610.html) Reminder: FreeBSD Office Hours on June 24, 2020 (https://wiki.freebsd.org/OfficeHours) *** ###Tarsnap This weeks episode of BSDNow was sponsored by our friends at Tarsnap, the only secure online backup you can trust your data to. Even paranoids need backups. Feedback/Questions Niclas - Regarding the Lenovo E595 user from Episode 340 (https://github.com/BSDNow/bsdnow.tv/blob/master/episodes/355/feedback/Niclas%20-%20Regarding%20the%20Lenovo%20E595%20user%20from%20Episode%20340.md) Erik - What happened with the video (https://github.com/BSDNow/bsdnow.tv/blob/master/episodes/355/feedback/Erik%20-%20What%20happened%20with%20the%20video.md) Igor - Boot Environments (https://github.com/BSDNow/bsdnow.tv/blob/master/episodes/355/feedback/Igor%20-%20Boot%20Environments.md) *** Send questions, comments, show ideas/topics, or stories you want mentioned on the show to feedback@bsdnow.tv (mailto:feedback@bsdnow.tv) ***

Quizmasters Lee & Marc are joined by Zach and Taylor, the winner of Nice Guys Pizza’s five-year triviaversary! The guests recount their experience and share some trivia, along with Lee’s favorite questions of the week and a dip into Marc’s repository. Lee shares some strategies his own teams use for table-talk and sussing at live trivia events. Marc reveals his very subjective scoring methodology. Round One ACRONYMS - ‘RPM’ on a traditional record player stands for what? TERMS OF VENERY - What kind of bird can be called an "unkindness" or a "conspiracy" in a group, and is more skilled than parrots at mimicking human speech, and can also replicate other sounds from the human world like car engines revving or toilets flushing? AL-QEADA - Mohammad Atef and Osama Bin Laden were required to be on opposite teams when engaging in what activity? EXTINCT ANIMALS - Megatherium was a genus of what now extinct animal endemic to South America? ACADEMY AWARDS - Who gushingly accepted her Oscar with “I can’t believe that you like me. You really like me.”? GEOGRAPHY - The geographic center of the 48 contiguous states lies in what midwestern city, which shares its name with what Western Asian country that borders Syria? U.S. PRESIDENTS - What U.S. President was best known by his friends and families for driving unsuspecting marks straight into a lake in his amphicar? STATE BIRDS - Which bird, chosen to represent seven states, is the most common state bird? Missed Corrections “Janis Joplin’s band was called The Electric Factory, not the Electric Company.” - Lee “The director of Starship Troopers is Paul Verhoeven, not Paul Van Derhoeven.” - Lee “The Flying Dutchman written by Ricardo Walker? No, Richard Wagner wrote The Flying Dutchman, which I read up a bit on, seen as a level-up for the composer, though he distanced himself from the style in later years” - Lee “Was listening to this episode and the night before Halloween is also known as devil's night. It's a regional thing I guess.” - John Grupp “Not so much a miss-correction but more of clarification. Houdini didn't get punched on Halloween, he only died on Halloween... he was punched in the abdomen several times a little over a week before.. the guy asked if didn't believe in the feats in the bible was true, and then asked if it was true that he couldn't be hurt by being punched in the gut. The guy punch him several times while Houdini was sitting in a chair, he had a show days later, and refused medical treatment despite knowing he had appendicitis. His last words were... "I'm tired of fighting.... I don't want to keep fighting anymore" - Erik “What movie did Judge Reinhold play a judge in? None, he did play a courtroom judge on Arrested Development, as well as Clerks: The Animated Series.” - Lee “Dolly the Sheep’s DNA came from a mammary cell hence her namesake Dolly Parton.” - Taylor Round Two NINE INCH NAILS - The 2005 Nine Inch Nails album With Teeth featured drums performed by who on most tracks, including the single “Every Day Is Exactly The Same?” ASTRONOMY - What is the name of Mars’s largest moon? CATS AND LITERATURE - According to an obituary of the character’s creator published in the Los Angeles Times, what orange cartoon cat was named after a fictional character in Emily Brontë's novel Wuthering Heights? CHICKEN CHAINS - What famous Georgia chicken restaurant was founded by Zach McElroy and Tony Townley? REVOLUTIONARIES - What was Che Guevarra’s first name? GREEK ISLANDS - What Greek island is located northeast of Crete, southeast of Athens, and once featured a colossus, one of the seven wonders of the world? Rate My Question “ASTRONOMY - Which planet in our solar system is the closest to every other planet in our solar system for MOST of the time?” - submitted by Proverbial Lightkeeper Gil Final Questions U.S. GOVERNMENT - What Missouri congressman seeking election was dismayed to find his opponent was named ‘Richard A. Gephart?’ SEINFELD - Besides the main cast and Ruthie Cohen, a cashier at Monks Cafe, who appears in the background of over 100 episodes of the sitcom Seinfeld, what character is the second most frequently appearing character on the show Seinfeld, with 48 appearances? FENCING - Direct elimination fencing bouts are determined when time runs out or a player reaches what score? How many different tiles have a point value of ‘4’ in the game of Scrabble? Weekly Wrap Up November 2nd, 2019 @ No. 3 - The Office Trivia - Team Levinson (No Longer Levinson-Gould), 140 pts. November 4th, 2019 @ Palace - Trivia Newton John, 61 pts. November 5th, 2019 @ Gather - Tarpon Charlies, 78 pts. Novemver 7th, 2019 @ No. 3 Craft Brews & Beer Bar - As You Wish, 92 pts. Upcoming LIVE Know Nonsense Trivia Challenges November 11th, 2019 – Cape Coral FL – 7:00 PM @ Palace Pub & Wine Bar. Categories for the quiz will include 80’s MUSIC, VIDEO GAMES, DINOSAURS, STRANGER THINGS, NEW YORK CITY THE TITANIC & more. Final question category will be ‘SEXY GINGER MEN’ selected by last week’s biggest learners. November 12th, 2019 – Cape Coral FL – 7:00 PM @ Gather. Categories for the quiz will include2019’s BEST SELLING BOOKS, CLASSIC ROCK, MOVIES FROM THE 1930’s, SPORTS, CHEESE, SCTV and more. The final wager question that evening will be a question about PHYSICS selected by ‘Tarpon Charlies’. November 14th, 2019 – Cape Coral, FL – 7:00 PM @ No. 3 Craft Brews & Beer Bar. Categories for the quiz will include SITCOMS, MODERN ROCK, BASEBALL, BOOKS, HELLO KITTY, TAROT CARDS and more. The final wager question that evening will be a question about CELEBS THAT DIED IN 2018 selected by ‘Get Your Beer Here’. Thank you Thanks to our supporters on Patreon. Thank you, Quizdaddies – Tommy (The Electric Mud) and Tim (Pat's Garden Service) Thank you, Team Captains – Rachael, Aaron, Kristen & Fletcher Thank you, Proverbial Lightkeepers – Nicole, Luc, Spencer, Hank, Dylan, Justin, Cooper, Elyse, Sarah, Brina, Karly, Kristopher, Josh, Gil, Shaun, Lucas and Max Thank you, Rumplesnailtskins – Manu, Jeff, Eric, Steven, Efren, Mike J., Mike C. If you'd like to support the podcast and gain access to bonus content, please visit http://theknowno.com and click "Support." Special Guests: Taylor and Zach.

 SUMMARY Erik and Emily Orton, parents of five children and authors of the new release, Seven at Sea, explain “why a New York City family cast off convention for a life-changing year on a sailboat.” Together, these parents plan a way to bounce back from a career failure while also creating kids with character who are armed with lasting family memories. Leaving their two-bedroom, one-bath apartment in New York City, this audacious, courageous family of seven buy a boat they name Fezywig. If they waited until "the time was right," the opportunity would be gone. So, the Ortons set sail from New York to and around the Caribbean--more than 2500 miles! As a result, they learn more than how to sail together; they also learn to live together—joyfully and simply. KEY POINTS Because the whole family is involved in making plans, the dream moves forward. The Ortons learn to genuinely like the small spaces of New York City, and, in fact, feel lonely and overwhelmed by the work inherent in big houses. Living “vertically” in New York, helps them adapt to living on Fezywig where space is minimal. “Earbud cocooning” – a strategy for creating personal space and privacy Easy ocean access gives the Orton kids a natural playground as well as room to stretch and grow. Beach walks give Erik & Emily a place and space for private conversations. The work of sailing and living on Feziwig creates real confidence and character-building experiences. A three-day supply of water takes the entire family five hours to ferry. The Orton family emerges with three kinds of confidence: competence, credibility, and calm. As parents, their credibility is on the line: would they be doers or just talkers? They share meals and swap stories with other “cruisers,” unexpectedly making lasting friends. One daughter learns to feel “more comfortable with being uncomfortable” and showed her how to dream big and have the tenacity to hold on to a big vision. QUOTES FROM THE ORTONS “When the people you love need you, you show up for them.” - Emily “We realized we liked being in close quarters. And, yes, it does lend itself to a certain kind of friction and tension, but it also lends itself to a certain kind of coziness and connection.” – Erik “Once we got out there, we realized we were the biggest family on the smallest boat.” – Erik “What is the ratio of things we say we’re going to do versus things we actually do?” – Erik “I know that all of life is a risk…but, at the end of every day that we were illness- or injury-free, I felt grateful. I tried to take it just one day at a time.” - Emily “The main difference [to making friends on the water] is time…you’re all open and vulnerable. You need each other!” – Erik “I was really interested in trying to expand time…by having unique memories [of the same experiences].” – Emily “We knew we only had our children for a certain amount of time…and we realized this window was small and getting smaller. And we could wait for a convenient time; we could wait to have more money on hand. It would just be easier if our kids were older…but they would be gone!” - Erik “We knew if we made this investment now, it would compound over time, and it would only go up in value.” – Erik “[Home] is the feeling of connection we have with each other.” – Emily “What my family and husband all wanted from me was to know I was hearing them, and seeing them, and encouraging them. They just wanted me to be an emotional touchstone, and that’s very mobile.” – Emily “The memories that last are the ones we carry with us, and we’re very grateful to have a lot of those.” – Erik BUY Seven at Sea: Why a New York City Family Cast Off Convention for a Life-changing Year on a Sailboat RECOMMENDATION Strengthen your family in your own way: Look in each other’s eyes. Eat dinner together. Sit around the kitchen table together and talk about what’s important to you. Go on a walk with your spouse. Create questions that will bring you closer. Strengthen faraway children by complimenting them or by just listening. Connect with us! Facebook Instagram Twitter YouTube Website Special thanks… Music Credit Sound Editing Credit  

ERIK: Hi I’m Erik Bowman your host and owner of Bowman Financial Strategies, where we provide straight answers so you can make confident decisions to live the retirement you have always dreamed of. Today I’m speaking with Kristina Lynn Marshall of Kristina Lynn Photography. Kristina, thank you so much for joining me today.   KRISTINA: Thank you so much for having me.   ERIK: Before we dig into a discussion on photography and how the average person can significantly improve the quality of their pictures, whether they use a camera phone or their own digital camera, I want to give you a chance to tell everyone a little bit about yourself.   KRISTINA: Yes, absolutely. My name is Kristina Lynn Marshall. I am a portrait photographer based in Stillwater, Minnesota. I also have a satellite studio in Clarion, Iowa, which is my home town. And then I also come out to Denver, Colorado a couple of times each year. I have had my business for about ten years now. January will actually be my ten-year anniversary of starting my own business.   ERIK: Nice.   KRISTINA: I mainly specialize in portrait photography which means high school seniors, kids, families, weddings, corporate headshots. But I also do some product photography, some architectural photography such as real estate, and interior design photos.   ERIK: Very good, and just for full disclosure Kristina actually took photographs for Bowman Financial Strategies and if you go to www.bowmanfinancialstrategies.com, you’ll see a selection of photographs that are on that website that Kristina actually took for us and it was a great experience, so I highly recommend utilizing her if you ever do need professional photography services. Let’s move into really addressing some of the concerns that maybe our clients and friends of the podcast might have and specifically we know that many times a professional photographer is necessary. And a photographer is necessary for things like wedding pictures and maybe senior pictures and a professional shoot like you did for Bowman Financial Strategies, but of course people also want to take good pictures when they are on vacation or they’re visiting with their grandchildren. We can think of a lot of different moments in time where somebody just wants to take a picture and they might only have their iPhone with them. So let’s talk a little bit about some of the things that people should be thinking about when it comes to photography. And maybe we can start with what I have heard you refer to as the pre-shoot preparation. What should we do before we even think about taking a picture to give us the best chance of capturing a great picture?   KRISTINA: Everyone has a camera on them almost any point and time of the day with their phone. Right now, you are seeing a lot more photos being taken, and life being documented in photography. And so yes, there’s lots of really great tips I can share with you to take those photos and can make them a little bit better. For example, a couple pre-shooting tips I have. One is clean your camera lens. So you have your camera or your phone in your pocket all the time and you are grabbing it and you are touching it. A lot of times the camera is exposed, whether it is a front facing camera or rear facing camera, and so it gets finger prints on it a lot. So one of the first tips I usually do when I pull out my camera or phone to take a picture is to wipe off the lens.   ERIK: That seems so obvious and yet I can’t remember the last time that I actually cleaned the lens on my camera or on my phone camera. And if I did, I’m sure I just did it with my thumb and smeared more grease onto that lens so using a soft cloth and just not forgetting to clean that before you shoot that sounds like basic but extremely important.   KRISTINA: Yeah, even now as a professional a lot of times I will quickly pull my phone out of my pocket to take a picture. And I will take a picture and look at it and it is not as sharp as it could be and it’s because my lens is dirty. So it is a very common thing and it happens all the time, but it is a very quick fix to make your photos sharper.   ERIK: Awesome, well thank you for that. Why don’t we talk about some basic concepts that everyone should follow, whether they’re using their camera phone or if they are using their DSLR or digital camera. What are some of the basics they should understand and maybe we could break this into pieces, the first one being lighting. Does that sound like an appropriate place to start?   KRISTINA: Yes absolutely. So when you are taking photos, one of the trickiest things to kind of think about and after is the lighting. And that is because the camera doesn’t have as much dynamic range as your eye does. So what you are seeing does not always translate into the camera. Because your eye’s adjusting to the differences between the lightness and darkness. Lighting is a really big part of taking good photos.   ERIK: Can you highlight a little bit when it comes to different environments, perhaps maybe it’s a birthday party indoors compared to maybe an outside bright sunny day? What are some basic ideas about how you should think about that lighting when you’re taking a picture?   KRISTINA: So if you are, for example, taking photos at your granddaughters first birthday party. The best place to take the photos if you’re indoors is closer to a window because that’s going to give you more light, more natural light, and you won’t have to rely on your flash as much. So the closer you can move your subject to the window is usually best. If you are outdoors and you are trying to photograph something, finding shade is probably your best bet. Because you are not having to deal with really bright conditions where your subject is squinting, or your camera is trying to figure out if you are backlighting with the sun behind your subject or if it’s in the front. So shade is really good and overcast days are really good.   ERIK: So Kristina, when you are talking about working in the shade as an example, are you saying that the subjects are in the shade or the photographer is in the shade?   KRISTINA: A lot of times for sure your subject is in the shade. You know, if you are under a tree, me as a photographer and if I’m not in the sun, it is not that big of a deal as long as the sun is not shining directly into your camera lens. It is more important for your subject to be in the shade just because the lighting is more even. If both of you can be in the shade, even better.   ERIK: What would you recommend then out here in Colorado, you may very well be at a place like Daniel’s Park where there really is no shade and you want to get that background of the mountains or the backdrop of the mountains? How do you handle that if it is a bright sunny day, what are some tips?   KRTISTINA: Usually, shooting earlier in the morning or later in the day when the sun is a little bit lower in the sky makes for better even lighting. So a place like Daniel’s Park, it all kind of depends on what your goal is. If you were just out there photographing the mountains and wanting a nice landscape scene, it’s better to shoot earlier in the morning because the sun will be to your back, the photographer’s back, and shining on the mountains. If you’re shooting a family out at Daniel’s Park, it is better to photograph them in the evening, closer to sunset, because then the sun is behind the subjects and you can get it so it’s maybe slightly back lighting them a little bit. But that way you don’t have the sun directly in their eyes and they are squinty.   ERIK: And you know that seems counter-intuitive, I think that naturally most people who don’t do photography for a living, they think that a bright sunny day in the middle of the day actually is probably the best. And what I’ve heard you say is that it is probably the worst time of the day to get a really good picture, that you get better color, better shadows, and maybe better contrast, by taking your photos early in the morning or late in the afternoon.   KRISTINA: That is exactly right. This morning I photographed this family and it was cloudy out and they made this comment of, oh how this must be horrible lighting for you. And I said no, actually a cloudy day is perfect for me, because everything is nice and even lighting, you don’t have to worry about really bright highlight spots and really dark shadows. It is more even. And it opens up the opportunity that I can take you kind of wherever and not have to worry about, well will you be facing the sun, how do I get the sun to your back.   ERIK: Excellent. I have a question that keeps popping into my mind and I know when I take photos with my iPhone or really any camera, the one thing, especially if I am taking pictures of the mountains or a landscape if you will, is that it just doesn’t do it justice. You know, a sunset, as beautiful as the colors may be, you just don’t seem to get the, I don’t know, the depth or the detail or the expansiveness that you are seeing with yours eyes. What is it that causes the difference between what you are seeing and a photograph that just doesn’t really pull it out and make it look as great as you think it is when you are looking at it live.   KRISTINA: Great question. It all has to do with, your eyes are very dynamic. Because, you know they are attached to your brain. And so your brain kind of knows that this is the thing you are looking at and you can see the different colors whereas when you are taking a photograph, you are at the mercy of your camera and what your camera thinks is how it should be. Especially when shooting with your smartphone. Your smartphone is programmed to kind of look at the entire scene and kind of average it out so that your brights aren’t too bright and your darks aren’t too dark. It will kind of be in the middle. When photographing something like a sunset on the mountains, it can be kind of tricky because you have that sunlight pouring into your lens. And your camera is saying, oh it’s really really bright and I need to darken it down. So then you lose the detail in the mountains. Or your camera will go the other way and say, oh look at the mountains and that is the really dark area, let’s brighten that up, which then makes you lose your sunset because it is overexposing it and you lose all the colors. So there is actually a setting on all the cameras that I recommend using for situations like this. It’s called the HDR setting and that stands for High Dynamic Range. And while that is not a fix-all for everything, it does really help create more of a little bit closer to what your eye is seeing. Because what it does is your camera is taking all this information and saying those are the really bright spots, those are the really dark spots. Let’s kind of average that out and not overexpose or underexpose, but kind of go right in the middle.   ERIK: I always wondered what that meant, I didn’t know what it meant, I didn’t know what it did. Sometimes my camera would be on HDR and sometimes it’s not. So that’s very helpful, so there is a specific time and place for using that, so that’s awesome to know. So we have talked a little bit about lighting, actually we talked a lot about lighting and I know I have learned a couple of things for sure. One of the other components of photography is staging. Which in my mind, and correct me if I’m wrong, is really talking about what elements do you have inside of the picture. Are there things on the table? If there is a birthday cake with candles, what do you do to make the photograph more interesting knowing that sometimes you have limited control over what you can actually do as far as staging is concerned. But maybe you can enlighten us a little bit on some tips and some techniques that you use.   KRISTINA: Staging is definitely important because it is kind of setting the scene for what you are taking. But kind of a couple things to think about, anything that is in the foreground. You are photographing a birthday, and there’s a table with a cake, and your one-year old granddaughter behind the cake. But then there’s a bunch of presents right in front of you on the table. If you were to put those in the picture, they’re going grab your attention and it is going to take away from the actual picture you want to take of your granddaughter and her birthday cake and the candles. Something as simple as just moving things off of the table, getting them out of the foreground, will help. When you are grouping people together, like if you are doing a family photo, put people in groups so that obviously the taller people are in the back and the shorter people are in the front. But to create even more interest, you can do different levels. So instead of just having everyone standing, put people on different levels where there are some standing, some sitting, to create some interest.   ERIK: And I think that little bit of controlling the environment and changing those head heights as you say can really make a big difference, so that’s really good input.   KRISTINA: Yes, and even doing something where instead of lining everyone up in one big line, you do two different rows. So have the taller people in the back and the shorter people in the front. And put the taller people towards the middle of your grouping so that kind of naturally falls off on either side.   ERIK: Excellent. The next topic we had talked about a little bit earlier today and I just find it extremely interesting how the human brain works and when it’s evaluating a picture, what makes it just seem better, naturally. And when it comes to framing a picture appropriately, what are some of the techniques and rules of thumb that the amateur photographer should be thinking about?   KRISTINA: One of the rules that first comes to mind is what is called the Rule of Thirds. And this is more for composition. So to make something a little bit more interesting in your photos, instead of putting your subject directly in the middle of your frame, move it slightly to the left or to the right. So picture your view finder, or looking through your view finder, as a grid going across to kind of make like a tic-tac-toe board.   ERIK: Right, so there’s nine blocks.   KRISTINA: Yes, exactly. So when you do that, put those people kind of on one of the, not right in the middle, but the line to the left or to the right. That will kind of just create a little more visual interest. That way it kind of draws your eye through the photo a little bit more.   ERIK: I do believe that the iPhone actually has the ability for you to have that grid up and probably you could expand on this too. Do the DSLR cameras actually have a grid that you can see? I think the iPhones do.   KRISTINA: Yes, a lot of time on your iPhones and on your smartphones just in general, there are apps or ways you can put up a grid on there. So that you can kind of be mindful of the Rule of Thirds and be like, oh instead of right here in the middle, let’s move them to the left or to the right depending on what we are trying to capture just to add a little bit more interest.   ERIK: And I think to expand on that one little bit, is the Rule of Thirds applies vertically as well. So depending on the photo you’re taking, it’s not always a left or right adjustment, it may be an adjustment high and low, correct?   KRISTINA: Correct. For example, let’s say you are doing a landscape photo and you have the mountains and you’ve got beautiful clouds in the sky and you want to be able to capture both of those. It’s better to put maybe towards the bottom of the frame versus right in the middle so you can get more of the clouds or vice-versa depending on what you are going for.   ERIK: Excellent, it seems straight forward and obvious when we talk about it here. When in reality, I probably haven’t been using any of these techniques when I take pictures and then I wonder why they don’t look as good as they probably could, so that’s great information. Next let’s talk a little bit of what I think what is becoming more and more important, which is nobody has photographs anymore. I know down in our basement, we have hundreds of photographs of our first three children. And then since iPhone’s became kind of ubiquitous, my youngest child, Jacob, who is eleven years old, that poor kid, he’s not in any paper photographs. And what it really highlights is the need for appropriate backup and then how you might be able to use those digital pictures other than showing somebody your phone periodically and then one day it gets deleted and it’s no longer there. Do you have any advice on backing up the photos?   KRISTINA: Yes, so backing up is becoming very important. Because when you think about it, if you are documenting everything on your phone, what do you do if you lose your phone? For example, I know my sister, who has four little kids, she doesn’t have a camera. She has her phone, that is what she uses for her camera. Which is great, because then she can take pictures on the go. But she doesn’t print them as often as she should. And so a lot of her memories are living on her phone. Well what do you do then when you go to upgrade your phone? Are you saving them to an external hard drive? Do you even save them to an SD card in your phone? Are you just saving them on the actual phone hard drive itself?   ERIK: What are some ways of backing it up? Maybe what are the top two ways you would recommend for somebody to quickly and easily get those photos off of the iPhone for future use?   KRISTINA: One of the quickest ways to back up your photos, is most phones in general will even let you setup so that every photo you take on your camera will back up to a DropBox folder or your Google Drive. And so it is actually constantly backing up with every photo that you take once you attach yourself to WIFI. Sometimes it will pull everything from your phone and put it into your DropBox folder. So that would be my number one recommendation, if you don’t have something like that setup, do it now. Super easy, both Dropbox and Google Drive are free. And so it’s a very simple thing that you just go into your camera settings on your phone and tell it where to back up to. So it will just upload it to the cloud for you.   ERIK: If they don’t have that, somebody might not be quite tech savvy enough or have a desire to work with an app, how else do you simply get your pictures off your phone if you need to do it manually?   KRISTINA: There’s a bunch of different work arounds I would say. You can always email yourself photos. But that can be kind of cumbersome. A lot of phones have like an internal SD card that you can put in there and you can set it so that your camera is saving your photos to the SD card, which then at some point in time you can take out and you can download them to your computer and back them up on a hard drive that way. But again, if you lose your phone, you lost your SD card. The backing up to the cloud is actually the easiest, and a lot of times it is as simple as finding it in your settings and saying go.   ERIK: That explains though why most people have all these photographs and then when they run out of room they have to start deleting them. It is because it actually isn’t just obvious and straight forward how to get them off of your phone and onto your computer. So using either the cloud, and I think that Apple offers an Apple cloud kind of area where you can download photos, but using a free app called DropBox or Google Drive, once again, which I use extensively for saving documents actually for business purposes. Otherwise, I think both of those are great ideas, so thank you for those. Kristina, can you just briefly touch on the idea of zooming in with the iPhone or Android phone. What are some of the pros and cons of using what I think you refer to as the pinch zoom?     KRISTINA: With digital cameras or normal cameras, you have what they call an optical zoom, where they’re actually taking the lens and moving it closer to the subject, so you are not losing quality when you zoom in. It is moving your lens closer. However, with phones, you don’t have that luxury. With phones, you have what is called the digital zoom. So what a digital zoom is, when you open up your phone, your camera, and you go to take a picture and you want to be closer and you take your fingers and you spread them apart on the screen to zoom in, what that is actually doing is taking the pixels and making them larger. And so it deteriorates your quality. If you are in a position where you want to be closer to your subject instead of trying to zoom with your fingers or doing it on your camera phone, actually walking closer to your subject is better and it will make for a clearer picture.   ERIK: That’s awesome, that is really good information. I think all of this information is fantastic because certainly if we applied all of these techniques every time, we would have fantastic pictures. Some people may be concerned though that they don’t have the time to do that, they don’t want to miss the moment, and I would agree. I think it’s important that you get the picture, that’s like step one, what would be some advice to allow somebody to have a happy medium of improving their pictures but still making sure they are getting them without ruining the moment?   KRISTINA: It is very important to kind of have an idea of what your phone can do, but not to get so wrapped up in all the details and miss the moment. My biggest piece of advice for everybody is to remember what you are taking the photo of most times is the moment so that you can remember the moment, and don’t get so wrapped up in making it the perfect photo. With digital, there’s a lot of things you can fix afterwards. And so if something’s a little bit off, a lot of times you can go in and make it a little bit better. But don’t get so wrapped up in needing to know all the details and everything that your phone can do. Maybe pick one or two things and kind of work on that so that it becomes second nature. And then you can always add on things as you go. Don’t get bogged down by technology.   ERIK: That’s great advise. You know and I do think about that every computer out there has pretty standard photo software and I’m looking at my Windows 10 operating system and it has a built-in photo editor that can do some amazing things these days. As long as you can figure out a way through your backup system to get your photos to your computer, you can crop them. So that if so when you took the picture, for example, you didn’t create that third idea that we spoke about, getting the subject into one third of it, but when you crop the picture, you can actually create that type of feeling and that people should just remember like you said. It is about the moment so that you can remember it and you know the most important thing is get the shot, you might be able to fix it later.   KRISTINA: Exactly.   ERIK: Well I want to thank you so much for taking your time to speak with me. We always enjoy getting together with you. Why don’t you tell everybody your website address and certainly if anybody ever is interested in professional photography, Kristina is a great person to use. We’ve used her successfully and have been really happy with the results, so why don’t you give some contact information.   KRISTINA: Sure! So my website address is kristinalynnphoto.com and on there you can see some of the work that I have done. I’ll have a list on there of all my travel dates, of where I’m actually going, or I have scheduled to go. But anytime you ever need photos, like I said I’m mobile and love to travel, so have passport will travel they say. And there is also a contact form on there so if you ever have questions you can always feel free to drop me a line and I’d be happy to help.   ERIK: Well thank you very much, I truly appreciate it. I hope everybody out there got something useful out of today’s podcast. So go out there and live the best day of your life. Thank you

Gretchen Evans served 27 years in the US Army, earning a bronze star, and rising to the rank of Command Sergeant Major. During her service, Gretchen survived a rocket blast which left her with hearing loss and a traumatic brain injury.  While struggling with depression after her injury, she relied on a new rope team to bring her back into the world and show her she still had the ability to find purpose by serving and leading again. Despite her injuries, Gretchen serves others as a passionate volunteer. She also achieved her No Barriers goal by finishing her book, “Leading from the Front.” On this episode of our No Barriers Podcast we connected with Gretchen remotely from her home in North Carolina. Showing her Army roots, Gretchen was early to the call and well-prepared, including with adaptive technology to communicate since she is deaf. The episode begins with Gretchen detailing her time in the Army, her many tours, and her overall love for the service. “I’ve done 9 Combat tours...I’m like a cat with 9 lives.” She was a natural leader and despite her very small frame she was a commanding force and was dedicated to her troops. After an unexpected rocket blast, Gretchen was devastated when she woke up in the hospital and learned she would never hear again. “The thing that really kicked me in the gut wasn’t even my physical injuries, what made me pause, made me afraid, was that I went from zero to hero in one second with no transition and no plan for retirement...that I wasn’t going out on my own terms.” As she was forced back into civilian life with a disability she struggled to figure out her new role. She describes the hopelessness and despair that can take over your life as a hole: “I had tried therapy, medication and those things somewhat helped but they weren’t the silver bullet. I wanted out of this hole. I was clinging to the sides to keep from falling in.” Eventually, Gretchen talks about finding No Barriers Warriors, the No Barriers programs for Veterans and on her first expedition out into the wilderness she discovers that it's not her disability that's been holding her back, it's her disconnection from other people. Being around other Veterans and having a team is what Gretchen was missing. She talks about how that was the catalyst to rediscovering her purpose - to lead teams and help others. She was still a leader at heart, just in a different capacity. “First you gotta realize you have a hole, having self awareness, and letting people into your life - realizing that helping other people - and engaging with other people who have their own holes- that’s healing.” Buy a copy of Gretchen's book: Leading From the Front Learn more about No Barriers Warriors TRANSCRIPT Erik: This is our No Barriers podcast. This is Erik Weihenmayer talking [00:00:30] from Golden, my home. We have my fellow host Jeff Evans. How are you doing today, Jeff? Jeff: Good, Erik. Good, Erik. It seems to be another shorts and t-shirts day here in the middle of winter in Colorado. Everything is going as not planned for our winter, but it's still a beautiful day here in Colorado. Erik: Dumped 12 inches yesterday I heard up in the mountains so maybe things are looking up. We're not getting much of a winter. I didn't [00:01:00] get much of a winter these last few days because I was out visiting one of our No Barriers graduates, Matt Burges, who runs this awesome organization, Freedom Fidos, training service dogs for vets. I was checking out his facility. Then I went down to Miami to meet one of our No Barrier sponsors, Tom Sullivan who founded Cabinets To Go. They have 50 something stores and they're gonna have a scholarship for vets, youth, [00:01:30] really anyone in our community to take part in one of our event, one of our programs, one person from each of those Cabinet To Go communities. That's 50 something scholarships of people that are gonna get to participate. It was a really good day connected with Tom and Cabinets. What you been up to, Jeff? Jeff: This half winter that we got here has been challenging for me, outdoor [00:02:00] perspective. It's like just when you think the ice is good enough to get in, we have a 50 degree day or 60 degree days. It's made for some challenging conditions. Things are going good for our upcoming trip to Nepal. We're gonna climb a mountain called Mera Peak, which is a 21,000 foot peak a little bit off the checking trails up to base camp. Fortunately as it plays out, [00:02:30] we have six former No Barriers participants joining us for this trip. A lot of the No Barriers messages will be percolating throughout the trip and the climb that we do. A lot of the messaging and content that we share and talk about will be centered around that idea of embracing this journey and being together and really soaking up the idea of fellowship. I'm really excited about [00:03:00] that. I know you and I will not see each other in Nepal at least this spring. You're heading back there in June with our guest for the day. Why don't you give us a little bit of a 30,000 foot view of that? Erik: It's gonna be so fun. I can't wait. I don't get into the field as much as I'd like with our group. We're gonna be leading a youth group to Nepal and we have kids signed up of all abilities, not just kids with [00:03:30] physical disabilities but kids with invisible disabilities. Kids, perhaps, who have been bullied and want to use a trip like this as a platform for social change to bring an experience like this home and create their own No Barriers pledge to elevate their community in some way. We're gonna be heading to [Muston 00:03:50], which is a remote area of Nepal. It's up on the Tibetan Plateau. We're gonna be exchanging with a bunch of villages and schools and [00:04:00] school for the deaf, some disability organizations and really trying to understand, culturally, how issues happen, how people break through barriers in Nepal, what kind of barriers haven't they been able to breakthrough yet. We're gonna be studying some sustainable projects that this great partner organization, the Z Foundation, have created. They get community buy in and then they have the villagers do [00:04:30] sweat labor and build sewage and electric, hydro-electric, all kinds of cool projects to bring modernization to those villages. It's gonna be an amazing trip. We're recruiting right now. Great transition because our next guest is going to be one of the leaders on this trip. I am so thrilled to be speaking with you today. Jeff, why don't you introduce our guest. Jeff: Gretchen has ... probably within the past [00:05:00] two years, she participated in various warriors female trip down in the Gila wilderness. She's got an amazing story. She served 27 years in the army all the way to, I believe, one of the highest ranks in CO ranks of command sergeant major. During her service, she was involved in a rocket blast, which impacted her [00:05:30] obviously in a lot of different ways. It caused a significant traumatic brain injury as well as significant hearing loss. We get introduced to Gretchen after these life changing episodes and we see them thriving. Of course, I want to hear more about Gretchen's story, about her journey that she's been on [00:06:00] to go to the point to the fact that she just wrote a book called Leading From the Front, which I'm gonna read for sure. The fact that she's now gonna step off with you and go to Nepal. Gretchen, welcome to the podcast. We're excited to hear some of your story. Erik: Gretchen, you served for 27 years serving our country. That's a long time. [00:06:30] Tell us why you chose to do that. Gretchen: Initially, honestly, it was just out of survival. I lost both of my parents when I was a teenager. I was attempting to become financially self-supportive. It just became really difficult. The military offered a job and training and income [00:07:00] and all that kind of stuff. I went down and enlisted in the army with the thought that I would stay in for four years and take advantage of their educational benefits, get out and finish college. What I really found was an intense love for what the military did and what it represented and the people that I served with. Four years turned into being 27. Jeff: You were telling me, Gretchen, you met your husband. I [00:07:30] find it interesting that he's a navy guy and you're an army gal. Can you tell us how that played out. Gretchen: Yeah, so my husband, Robert, was a navy chaplain in '06. He was sent to Afghanistan to be in charge of all the chaplains in Afghanistan. At the time, I was the senior command sergeant major in Afghanistan of all the installations. Everything good and bad came [00:08:00] across both our desks because the nature of both of our jobs. We really had this intense friendship and respect for each other. It came with the good news, it also came with the bad news when we had casualties and had to notify families and things. Robert left after a seven month tour and went home. I guess about a month later, I get this really lengthy letter full of nonsense until the last paragraph. [00:08:30] Then he said, "Could you ever be romantically interested in me?" Oh my God. I wrote back and said, "Did you forget where you left me? I'm in Afghanistan. I can't be romantic about anything. You must have a plan so indulge me." The plan was we'd write letters like they did in World War II and try to get to know each other that way. Ultimately then I got injured and life changed, but Robert [00:09:00] had proposed two months prior to me getting injured. I really thought that might be a war stopper. He said he didn't care that I was blown up and deaf. That's a great guy, don't you think?. Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Erik: I love that. Jeff: The fact that you feel in love in the sandbox and then developed and cultivated this relationship and it was all prior to your injury, that says a lot about the character of both of you and what you've been through. Erik: [00:09:30] Gretchen, by the way, I can relate to your story because my wife, when we were dating ... I'm blind and I have prosthetic eyes. It was this big event for me to have the courage to take my eyes out in front of my wife. I don't know if you can relate, but I was terrified because I was thinking, "Oh, I'm imperfect. She's gonna think I'm ugly." I took my eyes out and she said, "I [00:10:00] can live with that." I love that, when you find somebody who understands you're imperfect, you've been hurt and beat up a little bi but you're still lovable. Gretchen: Absolutely. I agree totally. Jeff: Tell us a little bit, Gretchen, about the journey that led you to that day and give us a sense of [00:10:30] how that day played out and then the near future as you started to heal, both emotionally and physically. Erik: And people don't know that you had nine combat tours. Gretchen: It started in Granada. I jumped into Granada and did Panama and Central America, [inaudible 00:10:59], Bosnia, [00:11:00] Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Over a 27 year period, I had nine combat tours. I felt like I was a cat. I knew it was gonna get me sooner or later. Jeff: Was it the ninth when the incident took place? Gretchen: Yeah, the last one. That was that one. What happened that day was I was flying around in my helicopter [00:11:30] to visit troops at a fort operating base, a very remote place. It was pretty exposed. I was just there visiting troops. We were out walking around. I'm just asking troops questions. All of sudden we take rocket fire coming in like rain. It was pounding us. I was telling to [00:12:00] the troops to get in the bunkers, get in the bunkers. We had these concrete bunkers scattered throughout the installation. Before I could even get myself into a bunker, a rocket hit about 10 feet from where I was standing. It threw me into one of the concrete bunker, which then resulted in my brain injury. It blew out my eardrums and took some shrapnel in places that weren't protected by my flight vest. The next thing I know I'm waking [00:12:30] up lying down in the back of a helicopter and I'm thinking to myself, "This is not the way I normally ride in a helicopter." Then I was motored back to [inaudible 00:12:40]. When I got to [inaudible 00:12:44], they put me in a semi-coma just to do an evaluation to see what all ... maybe if I had some internal injuries and just to plug up all the little holes from piece of shrapnel. Those things just make it nasty. [00:13:00] They get in and they fester and things. When I came out of the coma, there was a very young army doctor standing next to me with one of those white dry erase boards and he had a marker. He wrote on the board and then showed it to me. It says, "You're deaf." I took the board from him and I wiped it off with my hands. I wrote on there, "Forever." He goes, "Yes." Of all my injuries, [00:13:30] that was probably the hardest one to overcome because you wake up deaf. You're a hearing person. I was 46 years old, been a hearing person my whole life. All of a sudden, I'm deaf, on top of that with the head injury and all the other things. Honestly, the thing that really kicked me in the gut wasn't even my physical injuries. What kicked my in the gut and made me pause [00:14:00] and made me afraid was I went from hero to zero in one second. I didn't have a transition plan. It had not even crossed my mind about retirement even though I had 27 years. We were still at war and I wanted to be with my troops. I was just so devastated and probably really angry that I'd didn't get to go out on my terms, that my career was snatched from me [00:14:30] at the hands of the enemy. I think that injury, that devastation was the hardest one for me to overcome. Erik: What's that like? No Barriers is a lit about understanding these processes that we go through. What is that like being a hero one minute and then a zero in the next? What's going in your brain, all the [00:15:00] uncertainty, all the confusion, all the psychological fear? What is that experience like? Gretchen: The experience for me was I just didn't have a path any longer. I was just kind of like, "What now?" Toppled with these injuries, I just thought, "Nobody's gonna want me. I'm not ever gonna work again. How am I gonna communicate with people." [00:15:30] I was lost, as lost as lost can be. I hit this really low point and where, as hard as I tried ... and I'm a pretty determined person. I'm a marathoner and I jump out of airplanes and I repel. I do all these things. All of a sudden, I was this hearing and the brain injury were almost prohibitive from doing all the things I knew how to [00:16:00] do. I had these non-marketable skills like taking over small countries. That doesn't really resonate well in the civilian life. I didn't know what I was going to do. Honestly, I was in a black hole for a very long time. Jeff: I've heard you say as well because remember I heard you speak in Ashville and you talked about losing your family and your fellowship and your mission. When you say [00:16:30] your family, you're talking about your military family, right? Your team, right? Gretchen: Yeah, my team, my soldiers. I had been with them my whole adult life. If you think about it, I went in right after I turned 19 and I was 46 years old. My entire, almost, adult life had been spent in uniform with troops. I was not prepared for the civilian world. I'm still kind of a little bit of a crappy civilian to be honest. [00:17:00] That was my family. That was what I woke up to everyday for 27 years. These were my battle buddies and I had a mission. I knew what I was supposed to do. It was very well defined. I was good at it. I had honed in on my skills. That's when I said I went from hero to zero. I had no skills that I thought were applicable to life after the military. Jeff: Do you also think that there are certain people that get [00:17:30] into a routine maybe, they have a direction of serving? You're very good at serving other people. Then you get hurt or something happens and you don't know how to be served. You don't know how to be helped. It's like a totally weird situation that a lot of people get in that situation where they don't know how to handle it, right? Gretchen: Yeah, very true. Especially as a sergeant major because our rank is very special. We're supposed to be the advocate for the troop. [00:18:00] If you work for a three or four star general, he or she comes to you and usually he defers to you because they're your third or fourth general and you may be their first sergeant major. Anyway, you have the pulse of the unit. Your responsibility are to the troops and to make sure they're taken care of. I wasn't used to anyone taking care of me. I was taking care of other people. All of a sudden, [00:18:30] now I was kind of needy, which is gut wrenching at first because you don't even know how to ask for help nor do you want to. You don't have the words for it and also, it just feels so wrong. Jeff: It sounds to me like, Gretchen, you went through all of these different phases of emotion following your injury that we always hear so much about all the way from anger to frustration to sadness to [00:19:00] depression and then finally, at some point, you get to reconnect. Can you walk us through that path for you and how you've morphed from that fateful day to where you are now and then maybe give us a sense of your experience in the Gila wilderness and what part that played [00:19:30] in your experience as far as healing. Gretchen: It was really very a strange thing. I had kept in touch with some of my troops. We don't have to say a lot for people to know that something's not right. It's like a sixth sense almost. One of my guys wrote to me. He says, "You know, sergeant major, [00:20:00] I realize you're in a bad place right now. I just came back from a No Barriers expedition. You really should check this out because I know you like to be outside and you like to hike because you used to march our butts off all the time. This is right up your alley, carrying heavy crap and walking all over the place and not showering." He says, "This has got your name all over it." Initially, I tried everything else. I had tried [00:20:30] therapy and I tried medication. Each of those, at the time, were somewhat helpful but they weren't the silver bullet that I was looking for to get out of this hole. I wanted out of the hole. I was clinging to the very sides to keep from falling in. Just because he asked me and because of our relationship, I got online and filled out an application. Part of the process is that the physician [00:21:00] that works with No Barriers calls and talks to the warrior and talks about your disabilities. He gets on the phone and he says, "Okay, tell me what's wrong with you." In my mind, I thought, "They're not gonna take me anyways, but I'm gonna be honest." I said, "Okay, I'm deaf as a doornail. I have a traumatic brain injury. I have PTSD. I have little shrapnel pieces still all over me. I have a right side weakness [00:21:30] that can be problematic." I had a litany of things that I said that were wrong with me. He paused for like three seconds, then he says to me- Erik: You're perfect. Gretchen: You're exactly what we're looking for. Erik: You're perfect. Gretchen: You're perfect. Erik: That's right. You're perfectly imperfect just like the rest of us. That's beautiful. Gretchen: It was beautiful. Erik: Okay, you got accepted into the program. I'm just curious about what it was like to be with some colleagues because, [00:22:00] as you mentioned, the biggest pain you were experiencing was this lost of comradery and fellowship. Take us through that a little bit. Gretchen: At this point, really my physical injuries were what they were. I made accommodations to all the technology out there to help me with my hearing issue, my brain injury same with that. My real issue was [00:22:30] that I was just disconnected from life and from other people. I go on the expedition and a group of fantastic people, there was one other female and the rest were male warriors from all eras. We had two guys from Vietnam and then the rest of us were mostly post-9/11 veterans. It was in Colorado. The minute we all sat down [00:23:00] for the very first meeting, I felt like I'm back home. I might not be wearing a uniform, but these are my guys. Once we kind of told each other about ourselves and I told them I was a sergeant major, they wouldn't even call me by my first name anymore because that, to them ... Later they told me that made them feel so safe and so connected to because they each had a story about a beloved sergeant major who had made a difference in their life. It was like all [00:23:30] the stars lined up. It was just perfect. We hiked and we talked and I felt like all of a sudden, that hole started filling up with just good things. The despair that I been feeling and the hopelessness, little by little with each step as I was walking up those mountains started to dissipate. It turned the corner for me. There was some healing afterwards. I still wake up every day and not [00:24:00] everybody's perfect but that one expedition was the turning point in my life. Erik: I thought that was interesting. This is Erik, Gretchen. You talked about a hole and then you start to fill up that hole. Do you think that's what healing ultimately is? There's a lot of people listening probably that are experiencing a loss or getting stuck somewhere [00:24:30] and they want to heal. What does that look like? What did that process look like for you, filling in that hole of loss? Gretchen: What it looked like for me is first you gotta realize that you got a hole. The first step in getting better is self-awareness. I knew I had a hole, but it became really obvious to me how deep and wide it was when I got on the expedition. [00:25:00] Letting people into your life and realizing that helping other people, I would say probably other than the guides, I was in the best shape on that hike. I'm very petite. I'm 5'2" and 98 pounds on a good day. I would carry extra stuff for people and hike. That let me help other people, which is really was I felt like destined [00:25:30] to do my whole life. I was just doing it in a different way so that void of losing my troops was replaced by engaging with other people who also were trying to fill a hole. There's like this unity thing like we're gonna heal each other. Erik: Cool. Where did that lead you after that trip? You graduate and then you make a No Barriers pledge. Tell us about that amazing pledge [00:26:00] that's resulted in your book. Gretchen: I had to think about this pledge. There's lots of things that I could've pledged but I had been working on this book that really came out of putting down the stories of 27 years of serving with the most heroic men and women I've ever met in my life. It's really about the troops. It's written from my perspective but it's these wonderful stories about them. My pledge was the finish the [00:26:30] book. It probably was honestly about 89% finished already, but for some reason I just couldn't put that last period on the page because I didn't think I was healthy enough to finish it. Maybe I was afraid. I said to my guys and gals that were hiking with me, I said, "I'm gonna finish that book and you're gonna read it some day. Hopefully it will be meaningful for you." I did. I finished [00:27:00] it shortly ago. It's called Leading From the Front. It's lots vignettes about these remarkable things that happened in those 27 years. Jeff: Do you consider yourself a writer? I think a lot of people ... Erik and I have both written books. I think some people would say, "I'm a writer. I enjoy the process because in a way, it's a little bit therapeutic." Did you find that through the case or was it a struggle or did you despise the process or did [00:27:30] you embrace it at some point? Gretchen: When I was writing it, I wasn't thinking I was writing it ... I was writing it to help heal myself because I was writing about things that happen. When you put it down on paper, you have to remember better. Sometimes your brain plays tricks on you. When you write it down, I had to explain what it smelled like and what it sounded like and why Sergeant so-and- [00:28:00] so did this and all the little [inaudible 00:28:03] pieces. I don't consider myself a writer. I consider myself a storyteller. Jeff: Why did you call it Leading From the Front? I've seen books and people talk about leading from behind and leading from every direction. Why did you call it Leading From the Front? Is that an allusion to the frontline? What is that? Gretchen: In lots of ways, that title resonated with me. One, always try [00:28:30] to be someone that my soldiers could respect and look up to, not physically but somebody to eliminate and to lead with a firm but a kind heart. Also, I did lead from the front as often as I could. I wasn't one to stay back at the headquarters. I wanted to be up there with them. I wasn't a risk taker, I just [00:29:00] felt like if I'm asking them to do that then I aught to be there with them. It's that. That's where that title came from. Erik: I think that's your wiring, Gretchen. You're just absolutely wired. One takeaway from you is you were born to lead and when that got taken from you, you have to find a different outlet for you. I so applaud the idea of [00:29:30] who you are and what you've become since your injury. It's clear you live for others in a big way. The fact that, fur to your injury, you were put in a situation where you couldn't do this thing that is so you. I can imagine that really hurt and really [00:30:00] struck you right in the gut. After you finished your first No Barriers' experience other than the pledge and the book, what else have you taken on your journey since then and how have you applied it to your life in Ashville as a civilian and doing the things that you do from day to day when you're not in the back country with a warrior's team. Gretchen: [00:30:30] I went on another expedition after that initial one to the Gila wilderness. Part of the No Barriers program is a phase three where we stay connected with warriors after they finish their expedition and offer them we call it coaching. We offer them assistance and encouragement. You become part of a rope team for them to help [00:31:00] them achieve their goals. I find that incredibly satisfying. I have my little group of warriors that I reach out to and just plot along. Sometimes they need a kick in the butt to say, "Come on, you can do this." Sometimes they need you just to listen and you let them work out the problem for themselves because usually within themselves, they have the answer. You just get blinded by the circumstances. I spend a lot of my time working with my Barriers alum. [00:31:30] Also, I'm working with our development team so we can raise more funds so we can send more warriors and youth on programs. I enjoy that because I love telling the story about No Barriers. To me, it's not hard to sell such a great program. I can speak from experience that had I not taken the chance and filled out the form that day, I feel like I could have very easily become another statistic, which would have been [00:32:00] awful for everybody. Also, I help my husband in his job. His hospital serves 10,000 veterans every week or so. Just advising him sometimes on the way that soldiers think and what's important to them. I'm a good person for him to come home to and say, "I had this situation. What would you suggest would be best way to handle this," and try to [00:32:30] help him so he can make the VA an easy, safe place for veterans to get good healthcare. Erik: A lot of this conversation, Gretchen, has been about leadership and service. You served for 27 years in the military and then this thing happens to you, this thing of great loss. You're still leading. In a way, [00:33:00] what's going through my mind is that there's an ironic thing here. Has this helped you understand leadership or become a better leader than you might have if you hadn't gotten hurt? Gretchen: Absolutely, I have no regrets. You know what? It made me a better leader, absolutely. I really had to dig deep and I had to understand and try even harder to be empathetic and sympathetic [00:33:30] and be this strong person so that people would ... I used to always say to my people they don't care what you know until they know that you care. Part of it is just letting people know that you care to begin with and then to walk with them. Part of my pledge on my last one was to sit with the broken. I mean that in the sense that I want to be there when people [00:34:00] feel like they don't have any other hope and I can reach out because I've been in that hole. I don't want to get back down in it with you, but I'll certainly give you a hand because I know the way out. Just to help people get out of that hole and fill it with things that are out there. I think that's really. It's made me exponentially a better leader. Erik: You certainly are. Jeff: You truly are [00:34:30] the prototype of a No Barriers warrior, Gretchen. You've gone through a transformational experience. You been knocked down, and then you stood back up. Now what you're doing is completing that heroes journey, that whole Joseph Campbell's heroes journey circle. You chose to go into battle. You elected to voluntarily. You went into battle, you got your butt kicked. Now on the return of the completion [00:35:00] of that circle, you are now sharing our experiences to be able to improve the livelihoods of the people that you care the most about. I think that that's ... I know the word hero gets thrown around. You probably don't like it. It's just a little bit I know about you, but that's the true testament to what it means to be an archetype hero within a hero's journey. Really amazing. Erik: I think it's all of us in the No Barriers community [00:35:30] are honored and fortunate to have you as a colleague. Jeff: Yeah. Erik: And it's gonna be fun trekking across the Tibetan Plateau with you in June, Gretchen. Looking forward to that experience. Thanks for being with us today. Gretchen: That you both for your kind words and for having me on your program and for all that you do. I'm gonna keep plugging along until I get to the finished line and I'm exhausted. Yes, Erik, it will [00:36:00] be fun to be trekking across wherever we're going. I look forward to it. Thank you, gentlemen. Jeff: Thanks, Gretchen. Erik: Alright, cool. Hey, Jeff, that was an awesome interview. A lot of takeaways- Jeff: I just continue to be blown away by how the definition of a No Barriers participant continues to grow in my mind. I've been with you since the beginning [00:36:30] and watched the program evolve. There's some stories that are outstanding, but Gretchen's may be the most because she really exemplifies, embodies what it means to be a warrior and to be a hero. Give me your bullet points of what you take away mostly from that conversation with Gretchen. Erik: I think it's [00:37:00] just such authentic lessons of leadership, none of this stuff that you hear in Hollywood or fictional books. It's real. It's so real. It's somebody who's bled their message. I love stories like that. That personally inspires me. I like what she talked about it terms of what she talked about, a hole of when she got hurt. A hole being formed and you gotta fill that up. I love that analogy. Yeah, I think even a psychological loss [00:37:30] is like a hole. You gotta fill that up. What do you fill it up with? You fill it up with purpose, with mission, with your team, with service, with love, with empathy. That's powerful for me. Jeff: And the fact that ... I find it so profound that this woman literally was probably a child and knew she was going to be of service to other people. You can just tell it. It's just in her genetic [00:38:00] code this was going to be her path whether she's gonna embrace it or not. It's just who she is. I find that so fascinating. Then to have it pulled right out from under her, the ability and the venue to be able to engage and inspire and lead from the front for her soldiers. I think she mentioned it, the idea that could've [00:38:30] just sat and spun. She could've just fallen right off the cliff, but she chose not to. You and I have heard it plenty of times in all the warriors that we've done trips with and have gone through the program, I feel like that is the universal core message is my leg is one thing, my PTSD is one thing, my hearing is one thing. Just like Gretchen said, the thing that hurts the most is I'm not with my people. [00:39:00] I lost that purpose and I need to rediscover it. I'm so happy for her that she continues to find that through this program. Erik: Still building that map. I love it. Anyway, thank you. It was an awesome interview. If people want to learn more about No Barriers, go to nobarriersusa.org. We have a lot of events coming up. We have our What's Your Everest event out here in Colorado. We got a summit coming up in October [00:39:30] in Manhattan down the intrepid aircraft carrier. In Central Park, we're gonna have an amazing line-up where you can come out and celebrate the No Barriers life. Just check us out and we'll keep coming to you with amazing people like Gretchen. Thanks, Jeff. No Barriers.

Mark Wellman is a nationally acclaimed author, filmmaker and motivational speaker. Despite being paralyzed in a mountain climbing accident, Mark has inspired millions to meet their problems head-on and reach for their full potential. A two-time Paralympian and former Yosemite Park Ranger, Mark's NO LIMITS philosophy encourages individuals to adventure into new horizons; to go beyond the seeming unreachable. Mark is used to being on the road since he travels throughout the year, bringing his adaptive climbing wall to companies, organizations, and schools. We caught him during one of his road trips and he agreed to swing by Golden, Colorado to the No Barriers podcast studio and catch up with his old friends, Jeff, Dave, and Erik. Mark is unbelievably accomplished but also reserved and humble. He talks about his legendary, groundbreaking athletic achievements with the same tone most use to describe what they had for lunch. But there was a time in Mark's life where he was unsure, depressed, and hopeless with no clear path ahead. Mark discusses his near-death injury that he sustained on a climb that left his paralyzed from the waist down. He spent months in the hospital unsure of how to go forward and lost. That was, until he received some wisdom. I had this one physical trainer, she was from Germany, and she said: “You need to train like your training for the Olympics!” And I just really took that to heart.” Mark first was determined to find employment where he could stay connected to the outdoors. So, he went back to school and got his degree in Park Management. He worked as a Park Ranger in various capacities, already shattering people's ideas of what he was capable of, but that was just the beginning. He soon discovered the world of adaptive sports and threw himself into learning more and designing his own adaptive equipment to get back out into the field. It was then he came up with the crazy idea of climbing the sheer granite face of El Capitan. He found a partner, built an ascending rope pulley system, and started to train. Now, folks of many different abilities have climbed El Cap, but until Mark, this was unthinkable. He pulled it off and became the first paraplegic to make the ascent. “Are you crazy to take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid idea. Something could go wrong,’ but fortunately we didn’t really listen to that.” Mark went on to gain tons of media attention, made national and international news, met the President, lit the flaming torch up a 120-foot rope at the Paralympic games in Atlanta; a fun story he shared with us, and continued on to break even more records of athletic achievement, like being the first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevadas. Listening to Mark describe his epic achievements it's easy to forget he has a disability or about all the struggle that led him to this point in his life. But for Mark, it's about mindset. “I learned my disability wasn’t a death sentence - let’s get on with life, dude!” But Mark wanted to share what he learned with others. He details the spark of an idea he had with a friend that led to the formation of the nonprofit, No Barriers, and the humble beginnings of an organization that is now becoming a movement. He uses his time to speak to groups and offer inspiration, as well as lead hands-on adaptive activities that get people out of their comfort zones. “Let’s get out and enjoy life.” Read Mark's Autobiography Here Visit Mark's website: No Limits Learn more about No Barriers autobiography Climbing Back. The first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range, --------------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ------------------------- Dave: Well welcome to our No Barriers podcast. We are thrilled today to have Mark Wellman with us, who's one of the founders of No Barriers. Can't wait to hear some of his stories about what this organization was founded upon. He's really the heart and soul behind why many of us are here at the organization. Before we get into that conversation, Erik, you just came back from a really interesting experience, why don't share with our listeners a little bit about it? Erik: [00:00:30] Yeah, I was at a conference with all these authors. There were four of us, and the first was a lady, she was the author of Hidden Figures, this great book that was made into a movie, these African American women who were behind getting us to the moon, didn't get any credit at first, but then their stories were really illuminated by her book. And this guy who is falsely sent to death row for 30 years. He was incarcerated- Dave: Wow. Erik: In a five by [00:01:00] seven room, had to kind of go into his mind and think about how to expand his mind. He said in his mind he married Halle Berry. They were married for 25 happy years. Dave: When was this set? Erik: Recently. Literally just got out of ... he got out of jail, no apology from Alabama. But he wrote this amazing book, so ... And then a lady who wrote a book called Beauty Sick, mostly [00:01:30] about girls who struggle with body image, and how much productivity is lost in the world because girls are having to pay attention to makeup, and weight, and all the things that they worry about. Guys too, but mostly the focus was on girls, and I have a daughter, so I was sitting there just hanging on every word, thinking about my daughter and her struggle, so it was really book because it was four very No Barriers... Dave: That's a lot of No Barriers. Erik: ...authors right there. [00:02:00] Maybe we'll get them on the podcast at some point. Dave: That sounds like perfect fit for the kinds of topics we explore. Erik: Yeah. And I am totally thrilled... this is great. I'm so psyched to have my friend, all our friends, Mark Wellman on the podcast today. Dave: The legend. Erik: The legend, the dirt bag... is that okay to say? Mark: Yeah, yeah. Dave: You embrace it, right? Mark: It's great to be here. I embrace everything. Erik: Mark almost doesn't need an introduction, but Mark is [00:02:30] a world class adventurer, and an innovator, and is the key founder of No Barriers. Has done amazing things that blow your mind as an adventurer. Has skied across the Ruth Gorge. Has traversed the Sierra Nevada mountain range. Has mountain biked the White Rim Trail. Has climbed El Capitan, Half Dome. We were just talking this morning, your Half [00:03:00] Dome ascent was 13 days? Mark: Yeah, it was. Erik: On the wall. Just, Mark, a hero of mine for sure. You're a few years older than me. When I was a teenager and you were just a little bit older climbing El Capitan and doing all these amazing adventures, you were a huge part of my motivation, so I'm psyched right now. Mark: It's great to be here, thanks a lot Erik. Yeah I guess I could [00:03:30] start off with... 35 years ago I was an able bodied climber and we were climbing a peak called Seven Gables, which is pretty close to the Mount Whitney area. We had a 20 mile backpack to get into the base, and this is back in 1982, I was 22 years old. My good friend Peter Enzinger and I were back there to do this climb. [00:04:00] We set up a base camp about 10,000 feet, and the next morning we got up pretty early, grabbed our technical rock climbing equipment and left most of our provisions at the base camp, our sleeping bags. Sure would have been nice to have that sleeping bag with us but didn't have it. And we climbed Seven Gables. It was sort of technical, kind of a mixed route. There was a little bit of ice, a little bit of rock, and made [00:04:30] the ascent. By the time we topped of it was a little bit late in the afternoon, about five o'clock. We just embraced this beautiful view from the summit. American Alpine Club places sometimes these cairns, or climbing registers, at the top of the mountain. It was kind of cool to see this. In this case it was just a pile of rocks with a Folgers coffee can. And I opened up the Folgers coffee can and dumped out the little pieces of paper, and there's my [00:05:00] hero Royal Robbins had climbed it. "Cool man, I'm gonna put my name next to Royal." Did that, and then we decided we're gonna go down a class four descent on the backside, just scrambling, not roped. We were just kind of walking down a tail of slope. I'll be the first to kind of admit my guard was down. My partner said, "Hey, maybe we should put a rope on [00:05:30] this one section here." I go, "No, no. I wanna get down to base camp, I'm really hungry. There's some really good freeze-dried food I wanna eat." You know that wonderful Mountain House stuff. Erik: And 35 years ago. Dave: Delicious. [crosstalk 00:05:44] Mark: So next thing I knew, I slipped on some scree, and I pitched forward and I started rolling. I made a couple of somersaults and I rolled off about a 100 foot cliff. When I landed I broke my lower back at T 11, T 12. Of course at the time I didn't know it. [00:06:00] I was 22, I didn't even know what a wheelchair was. That happened, and my partner thought I possibly could have been killed. But he heard me yell back at him. He got down to where I was... he said he spent a couple hours with me stopping some bleeding on my legs, and some other stuff. Jeff: What's your recollection of that period of time... Mark: He said he was with me for two hours, it felt like ten minutes. Erik: Right. Mark: And then he left. [00:06:30] He left an orange, an extra jacket, and some trail mix and said "Man, I gotta get out and get some help." So after 30 hours, the best sound I've ever heard in my whole life was the sound of this... [helicopter sounds] ...coming up the canyon. Erik: You almost froze to death. Mark: It was cold that night. Yeah it was real cold. I was laying on some ice. That probably helped because it kept the swelling down in my back. So I'm an incomplete [00:07:00] para. I have a little bit of movement in my legs. They said that might have helped me, the swelling. But the helicopter got up there, it was actually a ship from the Forest Service. They were gonna just go up and see if it was more of a body recovery, but fortunately I waved to them and the helicopter disappeared. About an hour later, a second helicopter came up and this time was from Lemoore Navy Base, and they did [00:07:30] a technical rescue. Flew in, brought the rotors within several feet of the cliff surface, lowered a navy medic, got me in a stokes litter, got me back up into the ship. I was down at a trauma center, they were cutting my clothes off, and a nurse said, "Who's your insurance company?" And fortunately I did have insurance, I had Kaiser. I went through stabilization of my back with Harrington rods. I was in the hospital in 1982 for seven months. Dave: [00:08:00] Wow. Erik: Including rehab? Mark: Including rehab and the whole nine yards. And nowadays, a paraplegic if you go to Craig Hospital, it's kind of the factory up here in the west. A paraplegic will be in the hospital for about six weeks. It's pretty dramatic... in those days, it was a much longer hospitalization. Learning how to take care of yourself. And then... Erik: More time is better, right? I mean, [00:08:30] would make sense right? You can develop more time? Mark: Yeah, a little bit. I think seven months was a little excessive. Erik: Right. Mark: But you know, there's a lot to learn. Your life has really changed. Your spinal cord runs your body, and you're paralyzed from your waist down. You have bowel and bladder issues. You have skin issues you have to be careful about. So all those things were really important, and I had this one [00:09:00] physical therapist who was from Germany and she goes, "You need to train like you're training for the Olympics." I just really took that to heart and started lifting weights. Was ambulating with long leg braces. This was sort of the beginning of the wheelchair revolution where wheelchairs weren't a stale piece of medical equipment, they were a lightweight piece of aluminum that was more of an extension of your body. And the wheelchair [00:09:30] could take you from point A to point B. Fortunately, in 1982 was really when these wheelchairs... they started making lightweight chairs. And I was a part of that. Erik: Not the clunky Vietnam-era things, right? Mark: Exactly. The old Everest and Jennings chairs were more obsolete, and they were using... well there was a woman who started Quickie wheelchairs, Marilyn Hamilton, she got hurt in a hang gliding accident. They took hang gliding technology, clevis pins, aluminum, powder coat. [00:10:00] And they kind of messier of manufacturing these wheelchairs sort of like... taking the technology from hang gliders and applying it to wheelchairs. Erik: We're still less than ten podcasts in here, but we've already heard a lot of stories of people... these No Barrier stories of people who go down deep into these dark places. I don't want to bring you down, but you have a lot of experience right now and so you can look back. You went to a dark [00:10:30] place, obviously. Mark: Yeah. It was close to saying goodbye to this Earth. Fortunately I made it through. I remember getting back into rehab, then I met a state rehab counselor who said, "You know Mark, you have this great love, this great passion for the outdoors, why don't you become a park ranger?" And I'm thinking, "How's somebody in a wheelchair gonna be a park ranger?" I'm thinking [00:11:00] law enforcement, search and rescue, and she goes "No, there's many hats in the National Park Service, or many different jobs." She took me down to Fort Funston where I met a ranger who kind of showed me the ropes and said "Hey, you could maybe do a job, this would be an entry level position, but you could help us plant dune grass and work in the nursery, or you could go to the entrance gate and help out there." [00:11:30] So I did that for a summer and then I went back to school and went to West Valley College and studied park management. Erik: Cool. Mark: And became a ranger at Yosemite. I remember my first job wasn't exactly my idea being a ranger. There I was sitting in this little kiosk, this little booth, at Big Oak Flat, the entrance to Yosemite. In those days it was a three dollar entrance fee and I'd collect the money and be breathing in auto fumes all day long. That really wasn't [00:12:00] my idea of being a ranger. But it was entry level. The next summer I went down to Yosemite Valley and started working at the visitor's center doing interpretation. Interpreting the natural processes of the park, the public. Bear management, geology, climbing was a big subject too. I'd give programs on climbing, talk about A climbing versus free climbing. Jeff: Were you transparent with people that would come through the park, with how your injury took place? [00:12:30] When you'd talk about the [crosstalk 00:12:31] Mark: I was, I was. I would start my climbing program off with my accident, actually. And bring that in, because I think that was a big part of it. They might say, "Well who's this guy in a wheelchair, what does he know about climbing?" I'd kind of bring that in. That was before I climbed El Cap, I was doing those things. Jeff: Were you percolating on doing something like that when you were there? Mark: I was. It's kind of an interesting story. There was a magazine called Sports And Spokes, it was a wheelchair [00:13:00] athletic magazine. On the front cover on that magazine was a DSUSA chapter, a woman who was being lowered down a cliff in a wheelchair on a river rafting trip. The river went over a waterfall, and then you did portage all the equipment around the waterfall. They had a swami belt and a climbing rope and they had a helmet, I guess they wanted to put a helmet on her for safety, sounded like a good idea. And they lowered her down this cliff in this wheelchair, [00:13:30] and it was on the front cover of this magazine, Sports And Spokes. I got the magazine at my little cabin in Yosemite and I had it on my lap. I was wheeling over to the visitor center to open it up in the morning, and I bumped into my future climbing partner Mike Corbet. And Mike's nickname was Mr. El Cap back in the 80s, he had climbed El Cap more than anybody else in the world, over 50 times. And Mike had never really talked about climbing to me because he knew that's how I got hurt. But when [00:14:00] I showed him this picture, Mike's eyes got really big, and he got really excited. He goes, "You know what Mark, I wanna start climbing with you, but what I really wanna do is climb El Cap." And we had no idea how we were gonna do it. Dave: That's great. Mark: That evening, we were sitting at the mountain room bar, we might have had a beer or two. Dave: Or three. Jeff: That's where all good decisions are made. Mark: Where all good decisions are made. So we had a little beer napkin and we started writing down notes. We said, "Okay, [00:14:30] we're gonna take a jumar..." A jumar is a rope ascender, this was back in the day, kind of like what Kleenex is to tissue. So we took a jumar, and we mounted a pull up bar and a jumar, and then we had a second ascender on a chest harness. And we put a rope up right by the Ahwahnee Hotel. Church ball tree. It was an oak tree. We had this rope and we started ascending up into the tree and then he'd lower me back down. So we go, "Okay, [00:15:00] so a paraplegic can ascend a rope using their upper body strength. Now to get on El Capitan, we got to actually protect your lower extremities from the granitic rock." We knew we were gonna be up there at least a week. I don't have feeling in my legs, so I really needed to protect my legs from any kind of abrasion or any kind of sore that could have occurred up there. We went down to this hardware store in Fresno, California outside [00:15:30] of the park. We bought some leather, a speedy stitcher, some closed cell insulation foam, and we just started making these rock chaps and they sort of evolved over a course of six months. We were climbing Jam Crack, Warner's... Erik: Weren't they... what was the material of those? I've felt your chaps before. That sound's weird... Dave: The truth comes out. Jeff: Hey, we're all friends here. Mark: The original [00:16:00] rock chaps were made out of leather and canvas. But the pair of rock chaps you felt were actually made out of some kind of silky material. No, no... Dave: Oh that was lingerie? Not chaps. Jeff: This was the first No Barriers improv meeting, what you're talking about, with your buddy Mike. Mark: Absolutely. Jeff: That was it, that was the genesis of what... fast forward to today, that was the beginning. What [00:16:30] year was that? 1980... Mark: That was 1988. Jeff: 88. There you go. Mark: Yeah 88. I was 28 years old. Erik: So if you think about it that way, No Barriers began in the Ahwahnee bar. Jeff: Yeah, on a bar stool. On a bar napkin. Dave: I know you guys are all dirt bag climbers. I'm not a dirt bag climber. For our listeners who are not dirt bag climbers, someone paint a picture, because we're getting to the El Cap story. Which is a phenomenal story. Paint a picture of El Cap for us, because not everyone knows what that is. Jeff: Yeah, well. El Cap [00:17:00] is probably the most revered, iconic, monolith in North America if not the world. Uninterrupted, over 3000 feet of granite. It is... when you're in Yosemite, you look up at it and it's got this perfectly symmetrical flank apron on both sides that comes out into this promontory called the nose. And [00:17:30] you can't take your eyes off it. If you look away for a minute, you have to look back at it just cause it's so magnificent and powerful. And it represents so much too. If you want to call yourself a climber, you kind of have to climb El Cap at some point. Erik: When you stand in the meadows below, which is just clogged with tourists just all driving by gawking. What I've heard, is you have to look up and up and up, way higher than [00:18:00] you think you have to. Dave: And if you see a person climbing, as a person who's not a technical climber speaking, you think "Those people are crazy. They're insane. What are they doing up there?" Jeff: Erik and I climbed El Cap. And his dad, Erik's dad, and future wife were down there in the meadow with telescopes watching us. We had one of those little lighty things, little sticks, and we were shining our headlamps down at everybody. It's [00:18:30] a magnificent thing, but it's also very intimidating. It can be very cool when you stand up and look at it, but then the idea of going and climbing it I think is a whole different story. Erik: And as a quote on quote gimp, and that's a word by the way that Mark taught me. I never even heard that word before. It's one of those words I guess you somehow have the license to use if you are... Mark: If you are. Erik: If you are in a chair or you are blind. So what did, when you talked about this out loud, what did people [00:19:00] think? Are people like, "You're nuts." Mark: Yeah, we had kind of a mixture of both. People that knew us, were "Oh yeah you guys should go do this." Mark's been training, he's always skiing, always riding his bike, hand bike around... well in those days it was more of a row cycle. And then we had people say, mainly not to me so much but more to Mike, "Are you crazy? Take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid [00:19:30] idea. Something could go wrong." But fortunately, we didn't really listen to that. We just started training, we made these rock chaps. Like I said, they kind of just evolved over about a six month period. We kind of have a little circuit in Yosemite Valley that we climbed together. We did Jam Crack, the Prude, Warner's Crack, The Rostrum, we went over there. Erik: Oh, wow. Mark: So we did some stuff in the Valley [00:20:00] just to really warm up. And then I actually went up and spent a night on El Cap. Because we wanted to feel what that was like. Jeff: Up at sickle? Mark: We actually went to Heart Ledge. Erik: Wow. Jeff: Over on the south. Mark: Yeah, over on the south. The route we were gonna climb was a shield. So... Jeff: Cause it's overhanging. Mark: It was overhanging... once you get over the shield roof it's overhanging. The beginning of it's not. It's pretty low angle. Jeff: Were you scared at all before you did this or [00:20:30] were you just super fired up and kind of naïve? Mark: I was scared the night before. Jeff: You were. Mark: Yeah. Jeff: Like really scared? Mark: Yeah I was... couldn't sleep. This kind of what happened was... really Mike, about two weeks before we're gonna blast off, Mike goes, "Man we've trained so hard for this, I'm gonna write a letter to Tom Brokaw..." who is the national NBC News guy, who is a climber too, a little bit. And, I'm going, "Okay... " so basically [00:21:00] Corbet just wrote out a note with a pencil. He was a janitor at the Yosemite Medical Clinic to support his addiction to climbing. He just wrote a little note to Tom Brokaw, and I think three or four days later he's talking to... Tom Brokaw called the medical clinic and talked to Mike, and said "We want to come out and do this story." Erik: Gosh. Mark: And all of a sudden the pressure was on. That's when I really was thinking, "Wow you're telling national news, this is gonna add [00:21:30] a lot more pressure for myself." But as soon as we got to the base of El Cap and I touched that granite, all that training and preparation really got into par, and I got relaxed. I started doing pull up after pull up, dragging myself up the largest unbroken granite cliff in North America, El Capitan, and the first night... we do something called, we fix pitches. So we were fixed [00:22:00] up about 800 feet. So we had... Mike used to say, "It's always nice to kind of have a jumpstart." Erik: Right. Mark: You know, fix those lines, get all your water, we had 250 pounds... Erik: It's like a trail of ropes that go up 800 feet so you can just... Mark: The next morning... Erik: Start on the ground and zip up 800 feet and have like a jumpstart on this gigantic monolith. Mark: Exactly. And have all your water, all your gear up there. So he had to work three or four days to make that happen prior to us [00:22:30] leaving. Once we left Mammoth Terrace, we were on our own. We went through the Gray Ledges, and we went over... the roof was really tremendous. Because Mike is basically climbing upside down, and then gets up onto the pitch above it and fixes a rope. Then I kind of untied myself and I swing underneath that roof, and you can hear the cheers of the people down below. It's like [00:23:00] what Jeff was saying, It's quite a scene at the El Cap meadow. You really have to have binoculars. It's hard to see climbers up there, because they're so tiny, they're like little ants up there. If you don't know what to look for, it's hard to see these people. The crowd was yelling, and the green dragon would come by. It's a tour vehicle that has it's open air shuttle. Erik: "If you look upright you will see a nutcase [00:23:30] climbing El Capitan." Mark: We could actually hear them talking about "Mike Corbet, Mark Wellman, first paraplegic..." So that was kind of interesting. Finally when we topped out, it was seven nights, eight days of climbing. This was before digital technology on El Cap, when national news came out. They had a mule train, they brought out a satellite dish that was like five feet wide, and we were live on top of El [00:24:00] Cap talking to Tom Brokaw. Jeff: Sick. Mark: And we've got... between the Today Show and NBC News, and in a week we were on TV for like several hours if you took all the time that they played this. There wasn't really much going on in the news, so they really kind of played this story up in a big way. As soon as we got off that climb, about a week later, we're sitting in the Oval [00:24:30] Office talking to President Bush. It was myself, Mike Corbet, "Writtenaur" who was Secretary of the Interior, and Jack Morehead, superintendent of Yosemite. The four of us are in the White House, in the Oval Office, talking about bone fishing because President Bush loved to bone fish and we presented him with a flag that we took with us on the climb, and it changed my life. Erik: Mark, so you're not that old, but I see [00:25:00] you sort of as the father of adventur e sports for people with disabilities. I want people to understand that the idea to climb El Cap back in the 80s... nowadays, I think... how many people have climbed El Cap in chairs, paras? Mark: Oh the chairs? Erik: Dozens, right? Mark: Yeah, dozens. Erik: But you sort of unleashed that. You opened up this door. And now, quote on quote gimps are doing everything, right? Mark: Every summer there's [00:25:30] a paraplegic. Erik: But you opened that door for all of us. So, it's sort of a crazy thought to me. Mark: It is. You can't take the first ascent of El Cap, you can't take that away from me. That's something I'll always remember. It was a huge accomplishment for both Mike and I, and there's been different paraplegics who have gone up it. A gentleman with cerebral palsy, Steve Wampler, was probably the most [00:26:00] disabled person that's been up there. Lots of amputees. I call them amputees, hardly disabled. Paraplegics wanna be amputees. Erik: Those will be our first complaint letters. Dave: Exactly. [crosstalk 00:26:15] Mark: Quadriplegics wanna be paraplegics. Everybody has their differences. There's been a quadriplegic, incomplete quadriplegic, climbed El Cap with Tommy Thompson, good climber. [00:26:30] Steve Muse. Erik: There's that kid who climbed The Chief, he was inspired by you. Mark: Yep. Erik: He was a quad, and he climbed The Chief. He invented kind of this, almost like a contraption with wheels if I remember right, that kind of rolled up the face. Mark: Yeah it was... the premise was taking the Dolt cart. A climber by name of Dolt had this cart and he used to use it for a hauling system on El Cap. Brad "Szinski", the Canadian guy you're talking about, he came up with this [00:27:00] cart. His hands didn't really work as well as a paraplegic, he lost some muscle mass in his hands and fingers. So he had a different type of system where he could ascend a rope using a crank, and developed that. So there's been all kinds of different adaptations that allow people that are wheelchair users to go rock climbing. Jeff: This sort of set you [00:27:30] on this course to being an improvisational pioneer, those are my words. Were you like that always or do you feel like your accident cued you up for this opportunity to then over the past thirty years... Mark: Thirty five. Jeff: Yeah thirty five years. Now you've continued this trajectory of being this pioneer when it comes to just making it work. You make it work, right? Mark: I was so young. When I got hurt [00:28:00] I was 22. I wasn't climbing big walls, I hadn't got to that point yet of climbing El Cap. Finally, when I did have my accident it kind of made sense. The steeper the climb for somebody in a chair the better. Mountaineering is gonna be really tough. There are ways of doing mountaineering. We got four paraplegics on top of Mount Shasta. Erik: Yep. Mark: And there was a guy named Pete "Rikee". It's funny... people [00:28:30] come to me if they've got an idea, a lot of times they'll want me to be a part of the project. Least... Erik: That was a pod that they were in, that had almost like tractor wheels, right? Mark: Exactly. What we did is we took a snowmobile and cut the snowmobile track in half and made a tractor stance. So you have two tracks and a seat with a bicycle crank, and we actually crank our way up Mount Shasta. We had to get special permit from the Forest [00:29:00] Service. You can only be on Shasta for three days, and we knew we were gonna be up there for a week. So I had to drive up... I was trying to explain to this district ranger on the telephone, he really wasn't getting it. Erik: Sometimes they don't get it. Mark: And he wasn't getting it at all. He was thinking mechanical device... Jeff: Motorized... Mark: Right. He knew who I was, so he said "Come up and bring the machine with you so I can take a look at it." So I brought one of the snow pods up there and I met with the district ranger [00:29:30] and a couple of his back country rangers, and they got it. They said, "This is cool man, we'd like to let you guys do this." They gave us a special use permit. The big thing about the Forest Service and wilderness, or National Park Service wilderness, you cannot take... supposedly mechanized devices cannot go into the wilderness. But if you have a disability, your bicycle could almost be considered a wheelchair, or your snow pod can be considered [00:30:00] a wheelchair. Long as it doesn't have a Briggs and Stratton engine on it. That was the big thing, it has to be a manual piece of a gear that's human powered. So we got that, and we got four paraplegics on top of Mount Shasta. Erik: And El Cap really launched you into being able to do all these amazing things, right? You pretty much became a professional climber, adventurer, doing these things around the world. I know you lit the torch for the Paralympics, right? Mark: I did, I lit the Paralympic torch in Atlanta in 1996. [00:30:30] Muhammad Ali lit it for the able bodied Olympics. They had this torch, and the night before we're training for it... it's a big surprise, they don't want to see the person light the torch the night before, no media, so we're out there. I was gonna climb an 80 foot rope doing rope ascension, doing pull up after pull up. And North Face made me a little, kind of a... we envisioned this Robin Hood thing with... behind [00:31:00] my shoulders, this arrow quiver where I put the actual torch in. I didn't wanna burn my hair, what's left of it, so... Erik: You had a lot more hair... Mark: So I said, "Let's make this torch holder so it comes off your legs." So they made that for me. That night we're training, I get up the 80 foot rope, and I lit the fuse and the fuse blew out. Erik: Oh no. Mark: And the pyrotechnics guy goes, it was windy, and the [00:31:30] next day it was gonna be windy too. So the pyrotechnics guy guys... "Okay Mark, I'll make sure this fuse doesn't go out the night you do it." And I go, "Great." So I get up there in front of 80,000 people, I'm climbing up this rope. Liza Minnelli is singing this song and she's going "Go Mark, Go Mark." The whole stadium of 80,000 people is going nuts. So I lit this fuse, and literally the thing blew up. There was fire all over me. And I'm leaning back, hoping I'm not gonna catch [00:32:00] on fire. Then the fuse went up and lit the actual cauldron, and that was the start of the 1996 Summer Olympics. Jeff: You did not combust. Mark: I did not combust. I had the best seat in the house. Erik: You'd be like a Motley Crue drummer. Mark: Exactly. So that was fun. Erik: Takes us on a little tour of what you did. All those amazing adventures that you did after that. Takes us on a little tour around the world. Mark: What a lot of people don't realize, which I think is harder than climbing [00:32:30] El Cap, or spending 13 days on Half Dome was another big ascent we did years ago... but was doing the Trans Sierra ski crossing. I've done it twice now. I did it in 1993, it was a big winner, and I did it in 2011. So we took a cross country Nordic sit ski. You sit low to the ground, you have two skis mounted underneath a frame with a seat, and you're sitting maybe a foot off the snow. And you have two [00:33:00] poles, and you actually double pole. So you're double poling to make this device go down the trail. I was on the US Disabled Nordic Ski Team. Competed in two Paralympics, in France and in Norway. Got beat up by the Finns, the Norwegians, they're so passionate about that sport. Jeff: And they're vikings. Mark: And they're vikings, man. They're so tough. My best finish out of 30 guys was of fifth place, that was in France. [00:33:30] In Norway, I got even more beat up. I wanted to actually get into Nordic ski racing because I had other things I wanted to do. I wanted to try to get into the back country in a Nordic ski. Back in 93 a guy named Jeff Pegles and myself was also on the US disabled Nordic team. We took sleds, little polks, behind our rigs. We had our bivy gear. And we skied 55 miles from Snowline [00:34:00] on the east side of the Sierra on Tioga road, we got someone to open up the gate. Guy that worked for the power company opened up the gate. We got up to Snowline and we skied from Snowline to Crane Flat, which is 55 miles. Jeff: Wow. Mark: Following the Tioga road. Jeff: Just the two of you? Mark: Well we also had Pearlman with us too. Erik: Filming. Mark: He was filming, yeah. Erik: And, you gotta tell the story about the White Rim. So you biked the White Rim, I think you were on one off mountain bikes? Mark: [00:34:30] Yep. Erik: Or some kind of devices, hand crank mountain bikes. And it was so sandy, the story I heard, you had to get out and you had to pretty much pull yourself on your arms and pull your chair, did you pull the other guys chairs too? Or were the other guys' bikes... Mark: It was an epic, groveling adventure. Seems like everything I do turns into that. Jeff: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:34:50] Mark: If you're not suffering, you're not having a good time. That's kind of how it is out there. We had these one off mountain bikes and [00:35:00] we actually did a Jeep tour to kind of check it out a couple years prior. We did have it a little easier, we didn't carry all our water and food with us, we had a swag wagon out there. Suburban, follow the four paraplegics. Myself, Bob Vogel, and Steve Ackerman. We rode this, 52 miles is the full circumnav of the White Rim. There was times, [00:35:30] yeah, it was an interesting experience out there because some of these washes were like moon dust. We couldn't get our bikes through it. So I had a pair of rock chaps with me and I threw the rock chaps on and did some crawling. Had an 11 mil static rope and dragged the guys behind me. Did a few epic things like that. Jeff: I mean, If I'm riding my mountain bike and I come up on that scene in the middle of the White Rim, who knows what to make of that? Mark: [00:36:00] You can walk man, so best thing to do is just walk your bike. Jeff: Like, "You guys are good right?" and they'll be like "Yep, we're good man." Erik: Leave us alone. Jeff: Leave us alone. Mark: Don't touch me. Jeff: There's nothing to see here. Yeah. Erik: Yeah. Jeff: Wow, that's rad. Mark: And then recently, just a couple of years ago... in the winter we had a drought in California and Tahoe, so I circumnaved Lake Tahoe in a kayak in winter. And that was a really amazing adventure. It was 72 [00:36:30] miles, two nights of camping. But the cool thing was, and it was cool at night, it was really cold at night. There was no power boats. In the winter you don't have any power boats on Lake Tahoe, it was kind of like being out there in the 1800s. Seeing bald eagles, none of the tourists were on the water, it was really a fantastic trip. Dave: So Mark, you are someone who really embodies the spirit of No Barriers and you helped [00:37:00] start the organization. So tell us, all these adventures, all these things you've done to challenge what's possible, what people think is possible. Why No Barriers? Tell us that story. Mark: You know, No Barriers... I did a movie called No Barriers, and I got a poster out called No Barriers. It was a word that really meant a lot to me. My wife and I, we were down in San Francisco at a fundraiser... in those days it was called Yosemite Fund, now it's called Yosemite [00:37:30] Conservancy. We were at this dinner, and I met this kind of wild old character named Jim Goldsmith. And Jim came up to me, knew who I was... we started talking. He had a cabin in the subdivision I live in called Tahoe Dawner. So Jim and I, and Carol, and his wife Connie would get together, we had a couple of dinners together. And then Jim started talking about the Dolomites, and his [00:38:00] son-in-law and daughter. And he said, "Man, it would be really neat to kind of do something for disabled people and able bodied people if we did something in the Dolomites." And I go, "Man, I know a couple of guys who I've done some stuff with, a guy named Hugh Herr, double amputee who's done some rock climbing with him, and Erik Weihenmayer." This was probably after your Everest... Erik: Yeah, after. Mark: This was after your Everest climb. And I said "Hey, these [00:38:30] guys..." we did a climb out in Moab Utah, the three of us, it was kind of gimp helping gimp, it was this real magical event out there. Which was really cool... Erik: Climbing the Fisher Tower. Mark: Yeah. The Fisher Tower. Ancient Ark. Erik: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mark: And it was this really fantastic climb. I'd like to get these two guys involved with what we're talking about. SO I called Erik, I called Hugh, and we ended up putting our first [00:39:00] little... in those days, it was more of a festival, we called it, instead of a summit. We did it in the Dolomites. It was a very obscure little place up in the mountains, this real beautiful location, but nothing was really accessible. The hotels weren't that accessible, everything was kind of difficult to put this together. But it was this real magical place in the mountains... Erik: I remember the chair operators didn't even know how to get people with disabilities on the chairs. Mark: They didn't have [00:39:30] an idea. They didn't... yeah. Erik: On the ski lifts. Thank you. Yeah. Mark: They weren't doing adaptive skiing in those days in that little village. It was actually the home of the 1956 Olympics. SO that was kind of my envision was to start this, and who knew it was gonna get into what it is today. It's just amazing what you guys have done, and all the different things No Barriers has to offer people. Erik: What do you think about when you think about the evolution? You had this little germ [00:40:00] of an idea to go to this town and start talking about accessibility and innovation, and some of your lessons about how you've broken through barriers, or how the three of us had broken through barriers. And now, when you look at it today... Mark: [sighs] It's kind of mind boggling how it's grown so big and how many different people it affects, it's not just the disabled community, it's able bodied community bringing everyone together. Trying new experiences. The youth programs [00:40:30] that you guys have been doing is tremendous over the years. Soldiers to the summit. We're having all these guys coming back doing ten tours, they're not adjusting back into society very well, and taking them out into the outdoors with Jeff and different mountain guides, it just changes their lives. Brings them more back into a reality where they can really kind of adjust back into society. And then the summit is just... I love [00:41:00] coming to the summits. I've been to every one now, I haven't missed one since the beginning. It's gonna be fantastic in New York, I'm really looking forward to that. Erik: And you bring your climbing wall, your portable climbing wall. Mark: I'll have... Erik: Almost to every summit. So that's your mission now, right? To go around and use your climbing wall as a No Barriers tool to help people break through barriers. Tell us about that. Mark: Absolutely. Climbing has been such a big part of my life, that I just like to introduce different [00:41:30] people to the sport. A lot of times, somebody that's... we don't say electric chair, electric chair is something you die in. Power chair. A power chair takes you from point A to point B. A power chair user, a lot of times doesn't have all the... there's not as many things out there for a power chair user to participate in. Climbing on my wall, they can. We have these harnessing systems [00:42:00] that support your core. It's almost like a Bosen's chair, pulley system. If you have the desire to get on the climbing wall, we can facilitate that. We don't turn anybody away. We've had people that weigh 500 pounds on my wall before. Very obese wheelchair users... it doesn't matter. I had a gentleman that had spina bifida and he was unfortunately caught up in the American society of drinking a lot of soda, [00:42:30] and became really big. We got him on the wall, it was really difficult for him. We would talk to him and he wouldn't really look at you eye to eye as we were talking. I saw him a year later, he dropped 150 pounds, quit the soda, got into a training, cut his hair in a mohawk, and it just changed his life. Got out of the power chair and was in a manual chair. So climbing was kind of the responsibility of really changing this guys life, and now I see [00:43:00] him down in Los Angeles. I probably take the wall to Southern California maybe seven or eight times a year, San Francisco, Bay Area. I sort of have different groups hire me year after year, once they experience the wall they really want to have it be part of their event. We bring in, mini El Cap I call it, and we get people on it and we have a great time. Erik: And you're traveling around with your wall, full time. People bring you in to create this experience for their [00:43:30] rehab hospital or organization or team, right? Mark: Exactly. All those venues... I do adaptive climbing seminars. So a gym might call me and wanna know, "how do we get an adaptive climbing program going?" So I do that. And a lot of times I'll do not only a seminar on adaptive climbing, but then maybe that evening do a show and tell about adventure sports and where adventure sports have taken the disabled in the last 35 [00:44:00] years. Erik: And you are like Kleenex now, because... you talk about the pulley system, it's not a pulley system, pull up system, a lot of people say, "Oh yeah, Mark Wellman system." Mark: Yeah, it's... yeah it's kind of getting that way. Jeff: You're like Beyonce now. Mark: I'm like Beyonce. It's just kind of neat that my passions over the years... everybody should have a passion. And my passion has always been [00:44:30] to be out camping, doing something in the outdoors, coming up with new ideas, new technologies... and some of these technologies are more like a backyard technology. It's not that fancy. Sometimes some of the most simplest things can change something. Like mountain bike tires on a wheelchair can change a chairs getting into the back country tremendously. Mounting a pull up bar in a sender can allow a paraplegic [00:45:00] to do 7000 pull ups in eight days to go up El Cap. Just simple little technologies can really change peoples' lives, and you can take that backyard technology, garage technology, put something together that works for you that can help a whole bunch of people. Dave: I'd like to go back to that... You've told us a story, sort of the arc of your life, and when I look at you Mark and think about what you've accomplished I think "God, this is incredible. [00:45:30] This is an incredible human being that very few people who had what happened to you would ever have chosen the path that you have chosen." And I think, when I think about our No Barriers community, every so often you get folks who will say "Yeah, that's Mark Wellman but that couldn't have been me. You're putting someone in front of me that's so incredible, how could I possibly do this?" Erik: Yeah, you're de motivational. Mark: Right, right. I know, I get it. Dave: I'd love to hear, what do you think we can... 'cause this is what we do at No Barriers. We... If you're [00:46:00] listening to this, it's not like we take everyone up mountains, but we try to remind them about something in their spiri t... Mark: Yeah. Dave: ...that teaches them anything is possible. So talk to us a little bit about, Mark, how did you get to that point? Is it just sort of who you were from the beginning, was it an evolution? It just seems like everything you encountered, you are like, "I can do more." Mark: I think it's really important for people to get out of their comfort zone. Nowadays, it's so easy for young people to get... they get into gaming. And they [00:46:30] just, you know... it's stagnant. You're not getting out of your comfort zone. And the outdoors has a way of getting you out of your comfort zone. And you can make it safe... you don't need to think about what I do, it's more about finding, maybe getting some different experiences. And that's what's so cool about the summit. You have all these different activities going on where you just get a little taste of it. And hopefully [00:47:00] that little taste will inspire your imagination to want to try it again. And that's where I think it's really important if you're facilitating skiing or climbing, or whatever you're facilitating, you have to make sure that these people, their first experience is a good one. If they don't have a good experience, most likely they're not gonna go back to it. And, it's really important that the very first time... One of our board members, Sasha. [00:47:30] He was an academia guy, a professor. He came to the No Barriers event in Squaw Valley, the first one. Never had tried climbing before, and we took him to Donner Summit and got him up on this road cut climb that's 80 feet with big exposure, and it changed the guys life. It was something he was real nervous about, but it was getting him out of his comfort zone, and him [00:48:00] really having, you know... it was exciting for him, it was thrilling, it was challenging not only physically but mentally challenging at the same time. All those things combined. Kind of changed his life. And he became a board member of No Barriers because of that. Dave: Yeah. Mark: And there's stories like that all the time. Or Mandy, I remember her... wonderful singer. She got on my wall, it was 25 feet, and she [00:48:30] was really scared. It was a really scary moment for her where she had this big fear of heights. It wasn't like she was on a 1000 foot rope, she was on a 24 foot wall. But she might have well have been. Jeff: Relative for her. Mark: Could have been a 1000 foot climb. But she made it through. And came down... I got a guy that helps me, Wes, he's a search and rescue guy, kind of a big guy. He's just magical with [00:49:00] people, and really helped her a lot. So, you have all these different experiences... Erik: And I think that experience, by the way, gave her the courage to go out and do something completely non-climbing related, which was to write music and to go on to America's Got Talent, and... Mark: Exactly. Erik: Get into the finals, and now skyrocket into stardom. Mark: To fame. Absolutely. Making a better quality life for herself. [00:49:30] A lot of times when you say, somebody that's a wheelchair user... what is it, like 90 percent of the people in wheelchairs don't have jobs. And it's always kind of bummed me out, I'm thinking, "Wow." Why would you wanna be caught in a system like with Social Security and be basically poor your whole life, because "Oh I have Medicare, I have my Social Security disability," So you're trying to live on six to eight hundred dollars a month. And you're caught [00:50:00] in this kind of vicious circle. You've got to get away from that somehow, and get into the workforce, be productive. You're gonna feel better, you're gonna be a more productive citizen in this country, and you're not gonna be wrapped up in this vicious circle of never getting ahead and always having the government thumb you down, so to speak. Erik: Last question for [00:50:30] you from my end, this is Erik, and I wanna know, I've made it kind of clear that I look up to you. Tell me, who are the people that you look up to? Tell us about that guy Larry, tell us about some people who influenced your life. Mark: Oh man. There's been a lot for sure. There was a guy named... actually I think you're thinking of a guy named Mark Sutherland. When I first got hurt, Mark was a quadriplegic ten [00:51:00] years post to my injury. And he was back in the hospital. He had a bone spur, the spur was touching his spinal cord, and he was losing some of his action. Some quadriplegic can move their arms and they can push manual chairs, and he was one of those. But he was losing some of his arm strength, so he was in the hospital, and my room was next to his. We would talk at night. 'Cause I was really bummed out when I was first injured. To me, being a paraplegic was a fate [00:51:30] worse than death. I was on the sixth floor, if I could have crawled over to the window and jumped out I would have cause that's how bad I felt. I was just thinking, "Not having the use of my legs, I'm not gonna ski again, I'm not gonna climb." I was 22, I was just like, "Why didn't the mountain just take me." Those were the kind of thoughts I was having. But then I would go into this guys room, Mark Sutherland, and he would talk about, "Oh I had this milk truck that I converted, and I had a stool. One time I was driving it with my hand controls [00:52:00] and I fell off the stool, and I was on the ground and I had to throw my hand on the brake to stop it so I didn't kill anybody." Jeff: And you were like, "That's the greatest story ever." Mark: Yeah. I wanna do that. So I was just hearing this stuff from this guy, and he was talking about girlfriends, and how he was running around doing this and doing that, and I'm going, "Man, this guy has a life." And it was really inspiring to be... so where I was really depressed and laying in the hospital bed, and couldn't feel [00:52:30] my lower extremities, and "What's a catheter?" And I'm just like, "Man, this is horrible, what did I get myself into." And this guy was really upbeat and uplifting... Jeff: Showed you it wasn't a death sentence. Mark: Yeah. Showed me it wasn't a death sentence, and let's get on with life, dude. And it was like, boom. That just changed me. Then we went into rehab together, we were more in a hospital setting and then we both went into our physical rehab. That's [00:53:00] when it just started clicking for me, and that was it. Dave: Well, just to wrap up this excellent conversation that we're having about the history of No Barriers and all that you've done as well just individually, you've seen No Barriers be this thing that started in the Dolomites in 2003, we're 15 years into this. What's your dream for what it becomes? Mark: Wow. I would just consider it to be... I'd like to see maybe a couple summits a year, possible. [00:53:30] More, smaller clinics would be really cool too. I think you guys are really on a good, good path. But maybe some smaller events too. Just keep growing it. Keep doing more of these kinds of things. More technology. Bringing in more people, better speakers. Better people that are... or people that are doing more things that inspire others that give the ideas [00:54:00] to do more things. I'm amazed in 15 years where it's come to. Who knows where it's gonna go. Another 15 years from now, man this could be a huge, huge organization that could affect a lot of people and bring a lot of people together. This whole family, bringing the tribe together. It's always fun at the summits, and seeing people I haven't seen for a year, [00:54:30] spending time with them. I love getting people out climbing, so that's my passion. Erik: What if people want to learn how to get in touch with you, how to work with you, how to bring your wall to their organization? Mark: Yeah. Google Mark Wellman or just go to my website, No Limits Tahoe dot com. Give me a call. Erik: Although they won't talk to you, 'cause you're never home. You're always out [crosstalk 00:54:55] or something. Dave: Always on the road, right. Mark: Well, no, yeah I'm easy to get a hold of. Talk to my wife, Carol, [00:55:00] and I can get back to you. Erik: Right. Mark: Send me an email. I'm better on the phone, I don't like to email tons. Love to talk to you, if you have ideas lets talk about, lets see you at the summit. Lets get out and enjoy life. Erik: Cool. Well thank you so much Mark. Jeff: Listen Mark, I know you well enough to know you don't need to hear what I'm about to tell you, but, I think it's important for you and the listeners to know [00:55:30] in conversations like this, it becomes so clear how you are sort of the upside down pyramid. And you're the point on the upside down pyramid. And it all sort of funnels up from you, really. And I know there's others, but you're the man. And I know it's important for you, it is important for me to know that you know how many thousands of lives you've impacted. Erik: Tens of thousands. Jeff: Thousands of lives dude. You have been the kick starter [00:56:00] and the imputes. And you're just one of the most wonderful pioneers. I know you know it, but you need to hear it more, because you're the man. Mark: I appreciate it man, it's humbling. And, to take a passion that I had and a dream... and like I said, just simple adaptations, a pull up bar on a jumar. Man, how that changed other people to go climb up El Cap, or do Castleton, or whatever [00:56:30] mountain you want to get up, it's been a pretty cool experience. It's been fun to work with other companies. We're making more adaptive climbing equipment now. It's really kind of evolved from just handmade rock chaps to a real sophisticated pair of rock chaps that allows people to get out there and do a lot of cool stuff. Dave: Well it's been an honor to have you here Mark, I know many of our listeners are part of that No Barriers tribe. Many of them will know you, but a [00:57:00] lot of them won't. The movement has grown so big that it's well beyond you. But per what Jeff was saying, it's so important I think for the people of our community to know where this began. Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dave: And you are the point that Jeff mentioned where it began, and so, thank you so much for joining us, we appreciate having you. Mark: My pleasure. Erik: What did you guys take away from that? Might take us a while. Dave: Yeah. Exactly. Jeff: Might be a lengthy debrief on that one. Dave: I guess for me, as someone who's helping to build [00:57:30] this movement, like I was ending with there, just to remember the roots of where No Barriers began which is individuals coming together in small communities around creative ideas to do stuff that people didn't think was possible. And as we start to move to tens of thousands, maybe millions over the next ten years of people that we impact, that there's something in that special sauce that's still about the [00:58:00] individuals getting together having a fun, creative idea and going out and pushing their comfort zone. Erik: Yeah. I think that, No Barriers recipe is sort of hidden right in the story of El Capitan, which is... Mark's a smart guy, but he's not a scientist or anything, he's not Hugh Herr, who's inventing stuff where you go, "I could never do that." What he said is a pull up bar and a jumar. These are commercially available things. I think he had to adapt a few things, but [00:58:30] not all that crazy technology. Pretty simple. You combine that series, that innovation with the human spirit and a great friend or great support system, a great rope team, you do this amazing thing that opens up the door for a lot of people. It's a pretty simple recipe. Dave: It is. Jeff: All the big things that have happened with regards to our species all started with this small [00:59:00] germination of somebody sitting in their theoretical garage just being like, "How do I do this? Hmm?" And head scratch, and start piecing these things together, and then, boom, the movement begins. I think Mark embodies that, and what a great cornerstone for this organization. Dave: Well, and the movement continues. So if you're sitting there listening saying, "I wanna be a part of this organization, I wanna be a [00:59:30] part of No Barriers," please go to our website, No Barriers USA dot org. You can join us at the summit that Mark mentioned that's coming up in October in New York. There are many more ways you can join us but please, No Barriers USA dot org is our website. You can also share our podcast with your friends and colleagues and families, and follow us on our Facebook page. Thank you so much for listening. Erik: Live No Barriers. Dave: Thanks.