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The biggest opportunities often sit in the work everyone else is afraid to touch. In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Scott Abels, a CPA and business valuation specialist in Austin, to talk about why he built his practice around estate, trust, and gift valuations, the one area most professionals avoid. Scott spent 25 years in corporate finance at Dell and Motorola before launching his own firm. He moved from CFO consulting into valuation, then narrowed further into estate and trust work, an area with its own IRS code sections, examination rates above 20% on large estates, and the highest error rate he's seen. He walked through the landmines, retained rights and marketability discounts among them, where a single mistake can wipe out a client's discounts entirely. What struck me was his case for getting the valuation expert in during planning, not after, when it's often too late to fix anything. The same logic shows up in his turnaround standard of 30 to 45 days and the dozen questions he tells attorneys to ask before hiring anyone. Scott also revealed a project he'd been quietly working on, a plain-English book for Texas attorneys, and his answer for how the busiest professionals actually want to be helped. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS * The riches really are in the niches: narrowing from CFO work to a field with fewer than 10 true specialists turned a commodity service into a moat. * The IRS examines large estates more than 20% of the time, because it knows that's where taxpayers try to avoid taxes, so the valuation has to hold up. * Get your valuation expert involved during estate planning, not after; retained rights and other landmines often can't be fixed once the structure is set. * A buy-sell agreement signed and executed perfectly still won't bind the IRS, which weighs economic reality over legal form every time. * Overstep on discounts and the penalty isn't just losing them; the IRS can throw out your whole valuation and re-value with no discounts at all. * Before hiring a valuation pro, ask their guaranteed turnaround time and whether they offer audit defense; vague answers signal it's a side service, not their focus. Contact Details LinkedIn - Scott Abels LINKS Show NotesBe a Guest About IC-DISC AllianceAbout ETG Valuations TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good morning, Scott. Welcome to the podcast. Scott: Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to visiting with you. Dave: Sure. So where are you located today? What part of the world are you calling into from today? Scott: I'm in Austin, Texas. Cloudy, Austin, Texas this morning and just up the road from you a bit. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds good. So I've been really excited to have you on here. You were a guest a while back. You've kind of had some updates that I want to talk about. So why don't we just talk out. Scott: Talk. Dave: Give me a little bit of your background, you know, where are you from, what you're, you know, how'd you get to this point in your career? Scott: Sure. So I'm a Texas boy, born and raised. Went off to college, majored in accounting, got my accounting degree at the University of Houston and went, went straight into industry. Got my CPA shortly after. After I graduated and went into industry. And I spent about 25 years in what I call corporate America. Dell, Motorola, in corporate finance. And you know, most of my background is running a business division of a larger business. So it's really understanding how businesses work, how the day to day operation works, how's. How does the business model work from a financial perspective? Because I did that for about 25 years. Started my own consulting business about 15 years ago now. Dave: Okay. Scott: Initially, I started out as a CFO consultant, just kind of using the things that I learned in corporate America for smaller businesses in the. Mainly in the Austin area. And really quickly I, I had a client early on who needed help with business valuation, wanted to buy out a minority partner, and so I went away and got the valuation credential, the cva. It's essentially a CPA for business valuation. Dave: Okay. Scott: And I did a couple of these business valuations and I realized several things really quickly, Dave. I realized that these are like business valuation is like a puzzle. It's like a little business puzzle. And it's just perfectly suited to my background in understanding how businesses work. So I really, I like the work and it's well suited to my background. Other things I realized is as a CFO in Austin, I'm probably one of a thousand. Lots of competition, really. A commoditized service at the time that I started out, probably still is. As a business valuation professional, though, I'm probably one of 15 or 20. Okay. And there's probably only, you know, there's probably fewer than 10 of those that specialize and do nothing but business valuation. It's much more of a niche and you know, Much more of a specialized industry. And it just was a great fit with my background. So that's where I am today. I'm specialized in business valuation. And, you know, my background as a CPA and in corporate America has really kind of lent itself well to what I do currently. Dave: Okay. No, I appreciate that oversight. And, you know, my business is somewhat similar that, you know, there's a saying the riches are in the niches, and I'm convinced. But I find most professionals don't have the courage to really truly focus on a niche because to say yes to the niche, you have to say no to everything else. And so I really respect, you know, niching know, you know, kind of highly focused on the valuation. But then it sounds like you've done. You've decided to niche even further. So talk to me about that. I see what's in your background. I assume that's got something to do with does. Scott: It does. And you know, Dave, I'd like to tell you that I planned this whole thing out and that it was all this, you know, deep thought and yeah, this business research and everything else. But it really just has kind of evolved along the way, you know, from doing CFO work, which is pretty broad, to. To doing business. Valuation was, you know, really a specialization move there. But it made sense for my background and it was a, you know, a good opportunity based on. On, you know, what my skill set was and what I found now after doing valuations for several years is that one area that I think has the, you know, maybe a greater need than any other is estate trust and gift valuations. And, you know, the reason, there's really three reasons that I can think of. One is that it's. It has its own specialized IRS rules and regulations for estate trust and gift. So it's almost like there's every other valuation and then there's estate trust and gift that has its own specialized code sections, and it's very different from typical valuations. Another reason is that the IRS really scrutinizes estate, trust and gift valuations more than any other. So, for example, large estates, they are examined greater than 20% of the time when their returns are. Their tax returns are. That's a really high examination rate. And the reason is because the IRS knows that there's ways in there that taxpayers can avoid taxes. And so, as you might imagine, the IRS is not a big fan of taxpayers avoiding taxes. So they're going to examine those, especially the big estates. So specialized rules. The IRS loves to look at these. And the last reason is this is an area that, where evaluation folks make mistakes probably more than any other is what my research has told me. You know, it cries out for somebody to really specialize in this kind of work. And because, like I said, just because not everybody can do this. The problem is a lot of folks try to do this as a one off. And that's where we really end up hearing the horror stories about how the IRS picks these things apart. So for me, where a lot of people see this as an area of risk they don't want to touch. It's an area that I run to because it, you know, again with my specialization in this area, it allows me to work in the here and to see it as a real opportunity to serve clients better than what they might normally get from their, from their okay CPA or from, you know, from many other valuation professionals. Dave: Yeah, and I suppose it's a little bit like you, like a generalist valuation person. Doing a state trust or gift valuation is a little bit like a corporate attorney who really is great at corporate work. M and a contract work. And then they have a buddy who says, hey, we need to do this, we need to set up some, you know, this is this trust and we need to do some gift work. And the attorney says, yeah, sure, no problem. Right? I mean, technically they're qualified, right. They're a member of the state bar, they have a law degree. And so, you know, and the IRS recognizes that degree. But is it kind of a similar thing where you just, people just don't know what they don't know? Scott: It is. And I just look back to when I started doing these, I didn't know about all of the different code sections either. I wasn't doing these things at the time. And when I started doing these a few years ago, I realized, you know, some of the specialized knowledge and code sections that you have, and after doing them for a number of years now, I think I realized it even more. And it just is, it's a flashpoint area for the irs. They know that there is a lot of potential to go in here and claw back revenue because of things like discounts and retained rights. Things that don't come up in normal, you know, discounts come up in normal valuations, but not the way they do in estate and trust and gift valuations. And it's a, it's an area where you can, you know, clients can take advantage of the rules to save themselves significant taxes, but if they don't do it properly or if they, if they overstep the penalties are huge. So not only do they lose what they thought they had in discounts, for example, but the IRS may completely invalidate their whole valuation and go back and value it for them with no discounts. So the penalties are huge here. Which, again, I think is a reason that I see this as a huge opportunity to help clients navigate what is really a minefield here. It's a, it's an opportunity, but it can potentially be a huge downside if it's not done properly. And being able to offer that kind of specialized knowledge, I think is very valuable to clients and especially to their attorney partners. Dave: Yeah, I can understand that. And, you know, is this is when you get, when you pick up valuation clients in this space, is it like it was in the. When you're doing general value valuations where you just get a call from somebody out of the blue and they say, hey, Scott, you know, I've got this trust set up and I need evaluation done. Is that how the clients come to you? Is it just the actual end user calling you, or does it come to you some other mechanism? Scott: So it's. The short answer is no. It's seldom the end user because the end users don't usually know what they don't know. Right. They are reliant upon an attorney. So in almost every case it's going to be in a state and trust attorney who's going to recognize there's a triggering event where they need to get evaluation done and they'll reach out to me or to another valuation professional at that point in time. And so that's where the whole process usually starts. Interestingly enough, what I share with estate and trust attorneys when I visit with them, have a coffee shop conversation, is that it's even better, more advantageous to them and their clients to get their valuation person, regardless of who that is, to get them involved on the planning side way at the beginning of this, when the estate and trust attorney is putting together the whole, you know, the whole package of here's what we're going to do, here's the way we're going to set these things up, and here's how it's all going to flow. Because, you know, sometimes what we find is we do that valuation way later, way after the estate planning has been done, and we find these issues like retained, retained rights, for example, it's too late, then there's nothing else we can do. It's already, it's going to do, you know, it's going to, it's going to be a negative for the clients at that point. Whereas if we had been involved on the front end of the planning in this thing, we might have been able to say, hey, look, the IRS is going to look at that and they're going to disallow that as far as a tax advantage goes. So let's find a different way, you know, to work around that. But all that work, regardless, it comes in through attorneys or their CPAs. Client CPAs. Attorneys and CPAs who have business owner clients who experience a triggering event. And that's how we get involved. Dave: Yeah. And I know, I know that attorneys get a bad rap in certain circles, but I know that you and I, one, you know, we've known each other a while and one thing we each have in common is we, I think in a different life, either or both of us could have very well gone to law school, practice law. I know you have a brother who's an attorney, but I think early in your professional career, I think you had an insight into the legal profession that I think helped develop that appreciation for the profession. Is that right? So tell me about that. I know there's a story, but I really don't remember much about it. Scott: So you've been digging into my background here, Dave, I can tell. And you've done a good job. So early on. You're exactly right. Early on, I was from a small town in Texas called Bay City, about an hour and a half southwest of Houston there, and small town. And I worked for an attorney who was a family friend, a well known guy in the community. We knew him from church and like family and everything, and he was kind enough to let me work for him as a small one man office during the summer and during breaks and I got exposure to the legal profession like, like you could never get today, you know, here I am, a kid in college, don't have, I don't have any kind of legal skills or background or anything, but. But the one thing I was curious and willing to kind of jump in and wanted to learn stuff. And the attorney's name was Lynn Grebe. He was a general practitioner. So I got to see estate, trust wills, I got to see general business stuff. I got to see divorces, real estate, even did some small criminal defense stuff. So he's a generalist. Dave: Yeah. Small town, you kind of have to be. Scott: Right, exactly. So I went to the courthouse and filed suits and filed documents. I did some legal research, some, you know, lightweight legal research, but. And I listened, you know, I drafted documents for him and I just, I got to spend a lot of time with this guy. He was very generous. And as a one man office, I had access to him on a, you know, on a, you know, full day basis. So I got to see how he thinks, I got to see how attorneys work, I got to see how the legal profession works. And what I figured out was it really is, it's a very logical thinking kind of, you know, of a practice of a work. And, and it just thought, hey, you know, I, I like this. It's logical, it makes sense, Communication is really big. And I was always a good writer and I was just kind of drawn to that work. And I got to see again how a law office works early on. And Lynn was really a, was a professional role model for me. My parents were not professionals, business professionals. So he was, early on he was a role model for me as to how you conduct yourself, how you run a business. And, and I just really, you know, kept a lot of those things that I learned from him early on. And so I, you know, when I got out of college, got my cpa, when I started my own business working with attorneys, it was, it was kind of a natural, comfortable throwback for me, Remembering how law offices work, remembering how attorneys think, the time pressures, the schedules, all of those things that go in with being attorneys. It was kind of a, like I said, a natural return to some of those things for me. The other thing you didn't mention is, you're right, I've got a brother who's an attorney, I've got a son who's an attorney. You know, I can't do lawyer jokes anymore. I'm not allowed to do those without really offending family members. I've learned to, I've learned to huddle with attorneys on a regular basis at home and at work. Yeah. Dave: And the other thing that I've noticed About attorneys and CPAs is that, and I think it's part of what motivates them professionally. And when I tell this to attorneys and CPAs, they kind of all shucks, downplay it, but they really are, in many situations, they're a hero, they're a superhero to their clients. They are either saving them from a dire circumstance like, you know, the client was audited and they have to come in and clean up, or they were sued or they're doing planning that, that really relies on that. And I think one of the things that I especially appreciate about attorneys is they are this in some ways, you know, they're right up there, I think, with the cpa and you can make a case of which one is the more trusted advisor and maybe depends on the circumstances. But I've noticed the attorneys I've met, they really relish that fiduciary duty to their clients. They don't take it lightly. And they really are about the big picture and especially on the estate and trust side. I mean, they're doing work that, that's going to survive them and they're, they have to have a long term focus and a patience and a discipline and they have to be willing to push back on the client and say, yeah, I know it's helpful if we value this business at $5 million, but come on, Charlie, this business is worth $40 million. So maybe we can get some discount, you know, and maybe make it valued at 30 or 35 million. But we can't value it 5 million. And if we do, we're just asking for trouble. Scott: So anyway, that's kind of been my Dave: experience of working with attorneys. How has yours been? Have you had a similar experience? Scott: Yeah, and I go back to Lynn, Lynn Grievy, the attorney that I worked for. You just explained exactly the relationship that Lynn had with his clients. You know, these people looked up to him as a, you know, one of the, one of the towers of the community. He really was the guy that, that, you know, that looked out for the, you know, the common man in, in many ways, like you said. So he really was, you know, just a great figure in the little small town when I was there. And so many of the attorneys that I work with now, and especially estate and trust attorneys, Dave, as I work with these folks and, and I know a number of them and you know, and speak with them on a regular basis, even when we're not working on a particular evaluation case. And they are, like you said, they are not just doing a service for that client, they are doing something for that client's children and grandchildren oftentimes. And the clients are trusting these attorneys, especially the estate and trust attorneys, to know this mountain of regulation and to understand how to help them navigate based on their, their particular circumstances, something that's going to survive them and their children and maybe down to their grandchildren. So I agree with you. Most attorneys that I know relish what it is that they do because they can do something that not everyone can do for those clients and they love making clients happy. Dave: Yeah, yeah, that's certainly been my experience as well. Well, why don't we dive just a little bit more into the estate and trust and valuation discount. What are some other, like, if there's an estate attorney Listening to this, what are some other things that maybe they're not familiar with? As far as landmines or opportunities on the valuation side? What are some other things that come to mind? Scott: You know, it's interesting that you, that you mentioned that there's several IRS code sections that deal with very specialized rules. And so we actually, you know, have done some research to find out what are the rules that most often trip up, you know, attorneys and their clients. And we recently put together a white paper that I've shared with a lot of my trust and estate attorney friends of some of the, in this case, the six top things that tend to trip up attorneys and their clients. And it's, you know, it's things like treating a family buy sell agreement as fair market value. Just because you prepare a buy sell agreement and you go through the formal documents and have everyone sign it and you say, hey, here's what the value of our LLC is going to be. Just because you've done everything properly legally doesn't mean that the IRS is going to accept that. The IRS looks at the economic reality over the legal form. So just because you say, you know, hey, we gave this property away, you know, from this client, this client, you know, gave this property away, and so it's not included at his estate, the IRS looks at it differently and they say, okay, you gave it away, but you gave it away two days before you died. You know, this is almost, it's not, you weren't really looking to give this stuff away. You're looking to avoid taxes to your estate, right? Or let's say that the client says, hey, I'm giving away this, this, this business interest, you know, to my kids, but I'm retaining the right to, to make dividends, you know, from that business interest. The IRS looks at that and says, you're like, we call that retained rights. The IRS says, hey, you're retaining, you know, certain rights to that business that suggests that you still control it. So guess what? That business interest, you know, for $30 million that you said you gave away is not part of your estate. You effectively kept that. We're going to pull that back into your estate now and you're going to owe us taxes on that. And you've got a huge estate. So this means that your marginal tax rate on that business is, you know, it's astronomical. So, so those are some of the types of things. But it's, you know, it's knowing specialized rules like, you know, retained rights. It's another area where the IRS really gets folks is in discounts. Dave: Okay. Scott: Oftentimes. So discounts are a legal tool to use to represent a market reality. And so let me just give you an example there. You know, we have what we call a marketability discount that we can take on a business interest. And what that means is I can't turn this into cash very easily. A marketability discount shows the market reality that my privately held business, if I wanted to liquidate it, it would take me some amount of time and probably a lot of time, probably many months to liquidated. And therefore a, an informed investor would pay me less for that. They would discount that. Dave: That's a, sooner you want to close, the bigger the discount. Scott: Right? Dave: I mean, if you went to an arm's length transaction, that said, I have this $50 million business that would normally require a year of due diligence and you say to them, what will you give me to close on this business in one month? Well, they naturally are going to put a huge discount on that to account for the fact that they're having to skip their normal due diligence to offset their risk. Scott: Yeah, it really is a risk and return thing, is what these discounts represent, but it represents a market reality. Okay. What you can't do, though, what the IRS really frowns on is when maybe, let's say it's a CPA or somebody who only does valuations part time and they, you know, they're going to go look and they're going to say, oh, okay, for, for this type of asset, the average marketability discount is 35%. So boom, there we go. We're going to put 35% on it. They don't bother to explain it in the report because there's nothing to explain. They just went and found the market average. And the IRS is going to say, absolutely not. The discount needs to reflect the market reality of what's going on here. And, and using an average is not acceptable. And there's tons of court cases that show this. Now, if you went, for example, and found a court case with an asset that was very similar to yours, and they took a 50% marketability discount because of certain market realities with that business, and you and your business was very similar and had the same set of facts and circumstances, you might be able to take a 50% discount, but you've used a court case or you've used, you know, solid reasoning for how you did that. You didn't just take an average. So discounts are a huge area that the IRS loves to attack. And then like I said, the Last thing, really is the overriding theme in so many of these estate, trust and gift rules of the IRS is valuing the economic reality over the legal form. So just because you say that you gave something away, if you retain the right and use, you know, the ability to use it and to enjoy it and to have certain rights, the IRS says, I don't care that you've got a legal document that's signed. You didn't really give away those, those things from an economic perspective. And so you lose your discount and we're going to hit you where it hurts, which is in tax dollars. So that's what makes, you know, this area of specialization, you know, so difficult for a lot of folks. You don't want somebody who dabbles in this stuff. You really need to know these rules and to have dealt with them and to be experienced in this. Dave: So that's a really interesting point on the discount because, and I guess it's because these are related party transactions is what causes the scrutiny. Because if you have a $50 million business and you have a unrelated third party and they strike a deal to buy the business for $25 million and that's what everybody agrees to, then that's the price. And there's really no way for any other entity, a government body, a bank, anyone else, to really question it. Or conversely, if they're. A bidding war happens and that $50 million business sells for $100 million, that the contract governs it. As long as, you know, it meets the elements of a contract, that contract is valid. And it just strikes me that I could see somebody being tripped up on this because like you said, they could have all the I's dotted, the T's crossed, it being notarized, being signed by all the parties, I could see all that happening. And it seems like that $50 million business that you valued at $25 million, on the surface, everybody may think, hey, we're in great shape, I's dotted, T's crossed, everybody signed it, we had it notarized, we signed in a fancy office, everybody was sober, we're good. So is that, is it the related party aspect that creates the nuance and the difference? Scott: That. That is a big part of it. So in estate trust work, we're talking about, you know, it's clients that are doing things for themselves that often involves their family members or close friends. And so that's exactly what it is. So if, like you said, if, you know, a sale to an unrelated third party, that's market value, unless there's something else going on under the table. Otherwise, it's, by definition, it's what the market would pay and, you know, a buyer who doesn't have to buy and a seller who doesn't have to sell. But when you're doing these things, when you're gifting something to your children or to your spouse and you're assigning a value to that, it's a much different story, right? Because now it's, that's a family member or a person that's close to you. And you know, the real thing here, that that's, that that causes the friction, Dave, is that, you know, IRS rules allow people to take advantage of certain things to pay less taxes. There's certain things you can do. You can take discounts. The thing is, you can't take, you can't just willy nilly take discounts. They have to be properly supported and they have to be market based. And, and unfortunately, those things are not clear and objective. It's like, okay, you get, you do 1, 2, 3. And it works perfectly every time, right? There's a lot of subjective knowledge that goes into this, but at the end of the day, it needs to make sense to the irs. And they make the assumption they're at, they're adverse from us, right? From us and our clients. And their assumption is this thing is probably wrong unless you can prove to me that it's right. And that may not seem fair, but oftentimes that's kind of the way it is with the valuation. So it's really important to prepare that valuation from the perspective of, I'm expecting that the IRS is going to ask me these questions and they're going to push on me on these areas. And so I want this report to be so clear, when they look at it, it's like, okay, well, I see what he did. I may not fully agree with it, but what he did was reasonable and he didn't take any crazy positions. As opposed to just doing a standard valuation where you don't really speak specifically to some of those issues. You leave those areas of interpretation open for the irs and they're going to take advantage of that every time because they've done way more of these than our client has. Right? Dave: Well, I couldn't. But I always thought that once you did the valuation, you were done, you washed your hands of it. You said, hey, that's it, we got this crazy 80% discount. I'm done, I've washed my hands of this, and I never am going to be asked about this again. Is that how it goes. Scott: And I'm sure that you're being facetious when you ask that question. That's how it goes with some evaluation professionals, unfortunately. But that's not how it goes at atg. The way that we do these things, when we do evaluation like this, we always offer what we call audit defense. And you know, what that means, is that if the IRS picks this thing up and does a first line of examination of this, we're going to represent you. Whether that means sitting down with him face to face or answering emails or getting on a zoom call, we're going to defend our work. And so we're going to talk to the IRS and say, hey, look, here's what we did. Here's why we did it. And, you know, the IRS doesn't always have to agree with you. That's okay. They may not agree with you on everything. They probably won't. But as long as you. As long as you can clearly explain and it makes sense from a market perspective, you're going to be okay. And so when we prepare these things, we know that we are going to be having to explain this to the IRS potentially, and that's the perspective that we take. You know, one of the things we. That we typically say is we think like the irs, before the IRS ever shows up, we're thinking like, okay, what are the questions that they're going to ask? What are the areas that we need to really do? Make sure that we've got this thing perfectly buttoned up and prepare that. Like, we're going to sit down with an IRS agent who's angry and hasn't had his coffee on that day. And so we do that in advance for every one of these, knowing that we're going to. That we're going to be. That we're going to be on the hook if they examine this thing? And so we're never. We don't ever leave the client, you know, hung out to dry. It's like, okay, I do see that from time to time where clients come and they've got a. They've got evaluation, or their attorney comes and says, hey, we got this valuation. And it seemed really great, but the IRS has got all these questions about this 80% discount, and we don't know how to answer them. And we can do what we can do to try to, you know, to try to help the situation. We can't fix those things that, that, you know, if it's. If they've taken. If somebody else has taken a position that's not defensible. Not a whole lot we can do, but hopefully what we can do is just to help to, you know, to smooth it as much as possible or to prepare the client in advance for, you know, for what is likely to happen here is oftentimes what we do. Dave: Well, it sounds like your approach is more thorough and probably takes more time than just, you know, somebody who, you know, has some boilerplate language. They do 10 minutes of research, they say the average discount for this industry should be 40%. They plug it in, they have a five page report and they say that's that. You know, is this one of those things of you, you get what you pay for? It is. Scott: It is. It definitely takes more time for us to do it the way that we do it, which is building that report, assuming that the IRS is going to ask us questions, takes more time and it costs the client a little bit more to do that. But the downside is such that it more than pays for itself. If you think about it, we're, you know, I talk with the clients, with attorney referral partners about this. Where would you rather your client be? Would you rather them be elated about that 80% discount that they got that is not defensible? Or would you. Are you still going to be there when the IRS examines this? They got a 1 in 5 chance of examining it. Are you going to want to be there when you have to give them the bad news that the IRS disallowed the discount? And the problem is, Dave, that if the valuation is off significantly, the IRS doesn't just say, oh, no, that's not 80, it should have been 50%. So we're just going to take the delta. They look at it and they say, it's 80, it should have been 35. You guys screwed this up so bad that we're going to disallow the whole discount. And oh, by the way, that other discount that you took to, you took a control discount, it's automatically disallowed too, because you have so egregiously misstated this. And they can take the final step of saying, we're going to disallow the whole valuation here. We're going to set the value and you don't get any discount. So that's the absolute worst that could happen. But think about it. When they disallow that, that big discount that you've promised your client, and they've probably put the money in the bank and maybe even spent it, now you got to go back and say, hey, we don't. Not only do we not get that. That 50 or 80% discount, but you got to turn around and pay taxes on that whole amount. And, you know, for these larger estates, it could be millions of dollars. It's oftentimes. It's always thousands, hundreds of thousands, oftentimes millions of dollars that the client didn't think they were going to have to pay. They were super happy when they got that really cheap valuation. But. But it's like, okay, would you have paid, you know, 25 or 30% more for the valuation if. If you would have known that it was going to save you this whole debacle? Dave: Yeah. We're talking thousands of dollars in additional fees versus millions or tens of millions of dollars of tax exposure. Scott: Absolutely. That. That is potentially it. So I have never seen a case where, when the IRS reviews these things, where the incremental fee, you know, that the client, you know, would have paid is more than the, you know, the exposure that they have to the irs. It's always, you know, a multiple of that. So that, you know, the easy way to say it is there's huge downside here. And a lot of times, if it's a big estate and, you know, and there's some thorny issues involved, it makes much more sense to go ahead and get these things done right the first time. Dave: Okay. And, I mean, I. I know a lot of attorneys and some of the estate planning attorneys I know just getting ready for this call, I'd asked them, like, what are some of their frustrations with valuations? And one of the things they said is just re. Is responsiveness. They said, there are some firms out there. They said, you know, we're kind of under the gun. We brought the valuation person in too late, and they need three months to do this valuation. And, you know, sometimes it's a part of a large bureaucratic organization, and it's just, you know, there's just that. And my sense is that you all, being a boutique firm, focused purely on this, I'm guessing you have service options where you can turn things around more responsively than, you know, months. Is that true? Scott: Yeah, that is absolutely, Dave. You know, our standard Turnaround is usually 30 to 45 days. Oh, wow. Dave: Okay. Scott: You know, for an estate trust or gift valuation. And we, you know, we don't. As part of our standard package, we don't offer it quicker than that. We can deliver sooner than that. But of course, it's going to be an additional fee if you wait till the last minute. Yeah. Dave: You're paying overtime for your team and Scott: all somebody's got to sleep less when we do this thing and somebody has to sleep less. Dave: And, and that's what they're paying for. Scott: They're paying for those hours of sleep that they missed. But, but you know, Dave, I put together for, for some of my referral partners, I put together a list of 11 or 12 questions that, that they should ask or that they should think about when they're looking for a valuation professional. And this is one of them. You know, you know, one of the questions is do you have the, do you have evaluation credentials? Some of those are easy, but you know, another question is what's your turnaround time on these things? And, and if they say, oh, it's, you know, 60 days, 90 days, we don't know. Those are all signs that either they don't know what they're doing and you know, it's a crapshoot as to how long it's going to take them or they're busy. The valuation is not really their primary line of business. Oftentimes it's happened with CPA firms. Tax, tax or audit is their primary focus. Yeah, maybe the two or three folks that do business valuation part time are slammed with tax deadlines. And so, yeah, so if you call Dave: them in late January, good luck in getting anything done before May. Scott: I have this happen all the time where clients, you know, they don't get any responsiveness during tax season because they, their CPA or you know, a well known firm here in town who may have evaluation person or two that do this stuff. They can't get to it because their primary focus is tax or audit. And even worse is when the clients have questions about evaluation that their CPA firm valuation department did and they can't get anybody to call them back because they're slammed with deadlines. So just, it's another good reason why, you know, I encourage clients or referral partners to ask about those things on the front end. You know, what's your turnaround time? And you know, do you have a guaranteed turnaround time? Do you have, do you offer audit defense if you don't, why, you know, with the big firms, with the, you know, the large regional or national firms, the reason they don't is because they don't have to. They can afford to charge you whatever they want. Dave: Sure. Scott: But you know, but attorneys should ask those questions up front when they're interviewing potential valuation professionals. Ask those questions and you know, get answers on those things beforehand so that you're not, you know, three months later waiting to get that information. Dave: And yeah, it really sounds like you really could be a great resource for estate attorneys. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book or something geared. Sorry, I should have waited for you to finish your drinking coffee. Have you ever thought about writing a book like, geared specifically toward estate planning attorneys on some things they might need to know about valuation in the estate, trust and gift valuation world? Have you even thought about it, Scott? Scott: You know, we should have done the Tonight show together. You could be Ed McMahon and I could be Johnny Carson or Vice, but. Yeah, you're kind enough to bring that up, Dave. Actually, I have just recently written a book. It's actually in print now. I just. I just yesterday, probably two or three weeks away from having copies in my hand. And the name of the book is Business Valuation A Plain English Guide for Texas Attorneys. Oh, wow. Dave: Okay. Scott: It's exactly what it sounds like. It's written in plain English. There's no technical jargon, no acronyms, no mathematical formulas or anything else. What we did was, you know, we wrote a book that. That answers the questions that attorneys have most often. Do I need evaluation? Does it need to be certified? What are the landmines I should look out for? Is there certain terms that I need to understand in order to be conversant in this? That's what we've done. We've written a book. I go around meeting attorneys on a regular basis, as we do, networking, like we all do, and meet them oftentimes in a coffee shop. I call those coffee shop conversations, where it's just a casual conversation with an attorney, and he may. He or she may bring up a. An issue, you know, a specific issue they have with a client or something, and we can just. It's just a casual conversation. And that's what I want this book to be, is I want it to be like a coffee shop conversation where we can just. We can talk about, you know, the basic questions that they need to know. They don't need to know how to do a DCF calculation or a capitalization of earnings. They don't need to worry about what multiples are or anything else they need to know. They just need to have their basic questions answered so they can advise that client properly. Do we need to get an expert involved or do we not? And that's what we've done with this book, and I'm very excited about it and looking forward to. Dave: Yeah. So by the time this episode goes live, I expect your book will be out. And, you know, it's funny, in my niche tax arena of the IC Disc. I always tell our clients and advisors because they always kind of get overwhelmed with the details and the nuances, and they're trying to make sure they remember it. And every year, the same controller has the same question year after year, and they feel bad about it because, like, Dave, I know I asked you about this last year, and I'm asking you again, and I always tell them, I say, hey, look, I deal with this 365 days a year. You deal with it one day a year. And I. And in fact, I just had this call with a client yesterday, and I said, kayla, all you need to know about the IC disc is my phone number. And I'd argue that's all the attorneys need to know. They just need Scott's phone number, because all the other pieces you can take care of. Scott: Absolutely, Absolutely. And that's, you know, that's why I wrote the book, was just to. To be able to be a simple guide, you know, for attorneys to say, what do I do next? What are the questions that I need to. That I've got, and what do I need to do next? Dave: And. Scott: And you're right. Ideally, let me worry about the details, and I can take them through those details and as much, you know, take as much time as they would like. But ultimately, usually when I deal with attorney referral partners, they're just looking for that. That basic guidance. What do we need to do here? What should I look out for? Those types of things. So it's the approach you take with your clients? Yeah. No. Dave: So even though the book is really geared toward the attorney, if you. If the attorney had a client who was, you know, like, say, an engineer, you tend to be detail oriented and is really pushing back. And they say, well, my research says I should be able to get a 70% discount on this. Now, would the book be written in simple enough terms? That attorney could give a copy to a client who's detail oriented to at least cause the client to say, okay, all right, I get it. It's more complicated than I thought. So do you think it's plain language enough for a business owner or somebody, A client of a c. Of an estate attorney? Scott: Yes. The short answer is yes, Dave. I wrote it specifically for attorneys because those are the folks that I talk to the most often, and they're the primary referral partners, the primary point of contact I have when valuation issues come up for a client. But, you know, this book, you know, it would be very helpful for attorneys, CPAs, wealth planners, or the top folks that would find this thing Interesting. And. And it really is written in simple, easy to understand terms. And it covers some of the primary reasons why they might need evaluation. Things like M and A, estate and trust, divorce, business disputes, or IP valuations. And it gives just the basic questions that they need to understand to be conversant enough to know what they need to do next. And I give some very simple but practical examples for most of the issues. Most of the questions that I answer in there, I give simple examples. Here's an example of how this works or how it worked in the past with a client so that they can quickly and easily consume the things that they need to figure out. What are the next steps here? So there. No, no CPA is going to sit down with this book and say, okay, this is going to teach me everything I need to know to do evaluation. It's not meant for those folks. There's plenty of those out there that are written by people, you know, that have every detail in it. Dave: Yeah, textbook type. Scott: Exactly. This is really meant to be just a reference guide, a place to, to guide you so that you can figure out the next steps. Dave: Okay, well, hey. Well, Scott, I think this has been your second time on the podcast. It's been even more fun the second time. As we wrap up here, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had? Scott: I wish you would ask me about my dog, Buddy, my office mate here, but otherwise, I, you know, I. There's nothing that really comes to mind that I could think of, honestly. I think we had a really good discussion about these issues. And, you know, the main thing I would leave you with and your audience with is I enjoy, you know, talking about this. This is, like you said, this is what I do seven days a week. And anytime that somebody has a question about evaluation, especially the state trust and gift valuations, I'm always happy. It's easy to find my contact information on LinkedIn and I'm always happy to have a conversation and, and if I can't help, you know, the person, then I can always point them in the right direction. Happy to be a resource for you, for your clients, for anybody who's got a question. Happy to do that. Dave: And just curious, do you, like, charge for a preliminary conversation like that? Scott: We never charge until the. And unless the client decides to engage us to do the work. So all my conversations are free up front. And, and that's, you know, that's just the way that we do business is we can give you honest information and have that, that, you know, simple conversation with you up front so that you're armed with what you need to make that, well, awesome. Dave: Well, Scott, this has been a lot of fun. Best of luck in the release of your book. I'm looking forward to getting a copy of it. Scott: Thank you, Dave. It's been a pleasure to be on with you again. I appreciate the opportunity. Dave: All right. Hey, you have a great day, buddy. Scott: Thanks.Special Guest: Scott Abels.

Setting up an IC-DISC the right way can mean the difference between maximizing tax savings and having issues down the road. In this episode of The IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Brian Schwam, IC-DISC specialist and tax attorney, to walk through the complete IC-DISC setup and compliance process from start to finish. This conversation was inspired by a CPA request for a comprehensive guide covering every step of the IC-DISC journey. Brian breaks down the entire process chronologically, from the initial consultation to determine if a business qualifies, through the critical formation steps that can make or break your IC-DISC. We cover proper capitalization requirements, the infamous 90-day election window, why non-interest bearing bank accounts matter, and the draconian 60-day payment rule that catches many businesses off guard. He explains the difference between simple and transaction-by-transaction calculations, sharing an example where detailed analysis increased a client's commission from $4 million to $17 million on $100 million in export sales. Whether you're a CPA learning about IC-DISC for the first time or a business owner considering this strategy, Brian's systematic approach demonstrates why working with a true specialist matters when navigating these complex regulations.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS A detailed transaction-by-transaction calculation increased one client's IC-DISC commission from $4 million to $17 million on the same $100 million in export sales. Missing the 90-day election filing window requires a private letter ruling costing $35,000-$40,000 to fix, making it cheaper to just set up a new IC-DISC. The 60-day payment rule requires paying at least 50% of your estimated commission in cash or promissory note within 60 days of year-end to avoid disqualification. Setting up an IC-DISC with no par value stock is a fatal error that will cause the IRS to reject your election, regardless of everything else done correctly. A non-interest bearing bank account is essential because even $1.50 of interest income can disqualify your IC-DISC if no commission is paid that year. Export sales typically need to reach $3-5 million before an IC-DISC makes economic sense, though exceptions exist for businesses with exceptionally high profit margins.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Brian Schwam LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance Brian SchwamAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good morning, Brian. Welcome to the podcast. Brian Hey, good morning David. Good to be here. Dave: So I, I now refer to you as the Bob Hope of the podcast because I believe that Bob Hope holds the record for the most appearances on the Johnny Carson Show. So that's why you're like the Bob Hope of the podcast. You have more appearances than anyone else with today's appearance. Brian That's good company to be in if you're of a certain, if you're of a certain age. Dave: Yeah. And I'm not even sure you and I are quite old enough to even be of that certain age. Brian I probably never saw him on Johnny Carson. Dave: Yeah, me too. So this is an episode that was requested by a CPA of one of our clients who was retiring and he had a new. Partner taken over and he said, Hey Dave, can you send over a link to the episode that just goes through all the details of the IC disc from start to finish? And I'm like, well, we don't have that episode, but it's a great idea. So that's what's behind this. So let's start at the very beginning. Somebody calls you up and says, Hey Brian, I need an IC disc, or I want an IC disc. What's the very first step? Brian Very first step for me is to say why. Dave: Okay, Brian tell me about your business. Dave: Okay. Brian You know, do you have qualified export receipts? Do you have qualified export property? That those are very complex areas. And some people might think they do when they don't, and others might think they don't when they do. Dave: Okay. Brian And more likely than not, they heard about IC disc from. Somebody they met at a, you know, business leader meeting or something and somebody said, oh, hey, I have an IC disc. You should have one. Dave: Okay. Brian And not everybody can utilize one, but there's many out there that can utilize 'em that do not. Dave: Okay. And do you charge anything for that consultation? Brian No, because to me it's just a fact finding. Dave: Okay. So step one, figure out if their fact pattern warrants having an IC disc. Brian Right? Right. Well, it's, it's actually, that's one step. If you deter, if we determine that yes, an IC disc makes sense because they do have qualified export property, they do have qualified export receipts, then we have to talk about volumes. Because, you know, if you have 500,000 of export sales, most like more likely than not. Disc isn't gonna make sense. Dave: Economic sense when Brian you factor Right. Economic, the Dave: costs Brian not right. There's not enough benefit to offset the cost at that, at that level, most likely. Of course. It [depends on what, what it is they're selling. Dave: Sure. Do you have a rule of thumb you typically use? Is it like three or 5 million where it typically makes sense or every case Brian For most, for most businesses, that's sort of the range that where it starts to make sense, but there are always exceptions to that. Dave: Sure. Brian So like I had a client that had, you know, 600,000 of export sales, but their bottom line profit was 80%. Dave: Okay. Brian So in that instance, hey, it made sense, but for most companies that have 600,000 of export sales, it, it probably doesn't make sense. Dave: Okay. So let's say they have 5 million of exports, good margins, looks like it makes economic sense. What's the next step then? Brian Well then we talk about what is the tax structure of that exporting company? Is it a flow through entity? Is it a C Corp? And how is it owned? Sometimes [00:04:00] it's owned by a foreign company that makes things way more complicated. Okay. It's owned by a combination of different shareholders, some of which are individuals, some of which are corporations. So that can be complicated. And sometimes it's just a, it's just a pass through entity that's owned by, you know, let's say it's an S corporation that's owned by a family owned. Dave: Sure. Brian You know, so you, you can have a lot of different fact patterns and that will dictate a lot of things with, with respect. Dave: Okay. Brian To how the disc is organized. Dave: Might that also be the time? You inquire as to whether multiple discs might make sense for their structure, or do you typically just focus on kind of getting the initial disc in place and then exploring that over time? Brian Probably the latter. Dave: Yeah. Brian Initially I, you know, the goal is, you know, do you have enough activity? Do you have the right kind of activity? What kind of benefit is it that you think you can, we can get for you? And then, okay, if the answer to all those are in the positive, then it's like, okay, how should this disc be owned based on what we're trying to achieve and where should it be set up? Because that also can have a lot of negative surprises if you set it up in the wrong place. Dave: Yeah. So let's say and I think there's some rules of thumb like if if the. Exporting company is a C corp, you typically don't want the C Corp to own the disc, is that correct? Brian That is, that is correct. And that's because a C corporation pays tax on a dividend. It receives from the IC dis, so effectively there's no benefit. Dave: Okay. So with a C corp, typically it would be the individuals, individual or [individuals that Brian are Oh, the, the shareholders typically, Dave: yeah. Brian You know, possibly a management group could be involved as well, but typically we're talking about the shareholders of the C corporation. Dave: Yeah. And the shareholders of the disc do not necessarily have to mirror the shareholders of the C corp. Right. Brian That is sort of up in the air. I, I prefer that to be the case, but it doesn't have to be the case. Dave: Yeah, like in a simple example, census C Corp owned by one person and when they set it up, they wanna add a couple key employees to it. Brian Yeah. That, that, that's probably fine. You know, there's some old revenue rulings out there from the early 1980s that have a bad fact pattern, which the IRS held that the structure created gift tax issues, but that was like a mom and a dad and a son and a daughter, and mom and dad set up a disc and then gave the stock to the son and the daughter. And, and so that, that's, I see that's a bad fact pattern. What you described is a completely different fact pattern. There's no donative intent in that fact Dave: pattern. Yeah. Okay. In Brian fact, that I have a client that started out where the disc and the C Corp was. It did have mirror ownership, but over time, that has changed dramatically. But still, there's no donor of intent because we have all these unrelated families that own shares in the company in this quote company. And when there have been redemption opportunities over the years, they have the choice redeemed, the disc shares redeemed. The, the C corp shares redeemed them both. So some of like kept their dis shares, but gotten rid of the C Corp shares and vice versa. But really without the donative intent, plus some court case you know, precedent, I, I'm not [00:08:00] so concerned about that issue. Dave: Okay. Now let's switch gears and let's say it's a flow through an S-Corp partnership et cetera. Do you typically want the individuals to own it in that situation? Say that the company has three shareholders, would you just make them the three owners of the disc? More often than not, no. Okay. And why is that? Brian Because it, you get the same benefit by making the disc a subsidiary of the S corporation without some of the extra complexity associated with having the disc be owned by the shareholders. Now that, that's, that's preferred, but there are also situations where that doesn't make sense. Dave: Okay. Brian So let's say the, the S corporation is in California and the shareholder lives in Texas, or Florida. Or Nevada. Dave: Okay. Brian So they might want that dividend income flowing directly to them so that there's [00:09:00] no state Oh. So that there's no state income tax on the dividend. Dave: Sure, sure. Brian Okay. Okay. Yeah. So again, it's just another fact you need to uncover in the process of trying to figure all this out. Dave: Okay, so you've met with the client, you've figured out a disc makes sense, you've dug further you figured out the ownership structure of the disc. That makes sense. So then I guess you have to figure out where to incorporate, huh? Brian Yeah. And that again, there are good states and bad states. Dave: Okay. Brian Some states will tax an IC dis as a regular C corporation, you wanna avoid those states. Some states don't have an income tax at all, and those are good states to deal with. Dave: Okay. Brian And the three, you know, I'd say there's three states that are predominantly viewed as positive, and that would be Delaware, Texas, and Nevada. Okay. They're all fairly similar. For filing. And, and none of them have a corporate income tax on the dis so that's, that's all good in terms of not adding additional costs to the, the structure. Dave: Okay. So I'm in Texas and thus you, it seems like most of my clients end up incorporating in Texas. Do you just so here we are January 8th. We're recording this of 2026. So do you just do you just get around to doing it anytime before the end of the year and then you could use the disc the whole year? Is that how it works? Brian It's not how it works. It's generally a prospective opportunity. So you wanna get that entity formed as quickly as possible. Dave: Okay. Yeah. I've had people, I've heard [00:11:00] people say that if you don't do it on January 1st, you just have to wait till the next year. Brian No. That, well, that's certainly not true. And from any date forward that you set it up, you can certainly get benefits or shipments. Okay. That they, but one other item that I forgot to mention earlier, they also like to ask if the, if the related supplier entity, which is the exporter, if they're an accrual based company or a cash basis, Dave: ah, Brian that's an, that's an incredibly important issue Dave: Sure. Brian Dealt with. That's why. Dave: Okay. Brian Because the disc is an accrual base taxpayer by default. Dave: Yeah. Okay, we'll get into that when we get further around the, Brian okay. Dave: I think about when I was a kid, there was a, there was a Saturday morning TV series I think called schoolhouse Rock. And one of the episodes was how, how a bill becomes a Law [00:12:00] And there's the whole steps, the Brian episode, everybody remembers. Dave: Yep. Yep. So everybody our age at least. Okay, so you've got the disc set up and say you do it in Texas and let's say they make the decision January 8th, takes a few days to, you know, just kind of get stuff, you know, information from the client set up. And let's say you get it set up January 15th, so then they're good to go, huh? They can just start using that disc and away we go. Anything else? Ha. That has to be done Or is it, is it that some Brian on the, on the surface, yes, that's true. Dave: Okay. Brian But beneath the surface, there's other things that have to take place. Dave: Okay. What's the next thing that has to happen after you've formed the disc? Brian Well, you have a, there's a 90 day window to file a disc collection with the IRS. That's probably the most critical thing that has to happen. You have to file an actual paper form with the IRS to elect disc status for the company, because the company, when you set it up, it's just a corporation. Without that election, it's not a disc. Dave: And that election, is this the famous form 48, 76 dash a, is that said election, Brian famous or infamous in some cases, Dave: yes. Yeah. Okay. So you have to, so you just well, you just go to the IRS website. Download the form, send it in, bing, bam. Boom. You're done. You're good to go. Brian Not exactly. Dave: Okay. That's the Brian first Dave: step. Brian Skip. That's the first step. But the I mean, first of all, when you're setting up the disc, you have to make sure you incorporate it properly. Dave: Okay. Brian I kind of glossed over that. Dave: And what are some of the elements of proper incorporation? Brian Well, for example, when you go to a, the Texas website or any other secretary of State website to organize the company, because it can be done all online, [00:14:00] like the default is always, you know, no par value stock, right. Brian If you just select the default, you are going to have a problem because Okay. Dis rules require, you know, par or stated value of $2,500 on the, issued an issued an outstanding stock of, of the disk. So I had a client that came to me years ago. They had set up a company in, well, they used Wyoming, which is also possible to use, and it's not a bad jurisdiction. And they had, he had his quote unquote friend that who was an attorney, set it up for him. And there were some issues with the DISC collection and it went back and forth and then ultimately took a look at the articles of incorporation and it had, you know, $1 power stock, 1000 shares. Dave: Ah, that's a problem. Brian That's, [00:15:00] yeah. So no matter what happened with the disc election and the back and forth with the IRS, the disc election was ultimately never approved because the entity didn't meet the requirement. Having enough outstanding capital stock. So you have to have one and it can only have one class of shares. So there are, you know, there are some hoops you have to jump through in terms of not doing things incorrectly or doing things correctly. So you have to make sure there's one class of stock, $2,500 par value. There can't be foreign sales corporation in the same patrol group, which years ago was a big deal, but now it's not really a big deal because those have been gone for many years and almost nobody has one left. Not, not really an issue there. And what, you know, those are the formation matters that, that mattered, that are important to make sure you, you meet when you form the entity. Okay? If it's formed wrong, right from the get go, you have a problem. If [00:16:00] it's formed correctly, then the next step is yes, file a disc election. Dave: And, but before you file the disc election, there's a step we're missing, right? Doesn't the DISC election require. To put the corresponding EIN for the distance. Oh yes. I mean, I just assumed we, yeah, you obviously you have to apply for an ID number for the new entity that does not come automatically with the incorporation. Brian 'cause that's done with the state as opposed with the IRS yes. Dave: Yeah. And that's become more challenging. It used to be pretty easy to get an EIN you could apply under a corporate name or Brian yeah. But there, there's a, you know, there is an online portal with the IRS to get an EIN for a domestic company. So it's not, it's not Dave: terrible. Yeah. Brian It's not terrible. Dave: Yeah. So you have the EIN that you need for the 48 76 ae. Brian Right. Dave: You have you have 90 days, Brian you have the proper capitalization. Dave: Yeah. Brian You figured out who's gonna own the disc because the, the disc collection is. Signed, you know, it's not just made by the disc entity. It's made by the disc entity, then consented to by the shareholder. So you have to make sure that all that takes place. I can't tell you the number of times where somebody filled out part one, the disc signed it, and then the shareholder forgot the consent to it. And if you don't do the 48 76 dash eight correctly, you get it filed timely. It's an extremely expensive fix to try and get that Dave: rectified. Brian Generally, you have to try to get a private letter ruling, which will grant an extension of time to file the late disc collection. Dave: Okay. Brian And that's that's an expensive process. It's a 25 to $30,000 exercise to [00:18:00] file the private letter, really. Plus you have to pay a user fee to the IRS of 10,000, 11,000. Dave: Wow. Yeah. It seems that seems inconvenient at, at best. Brian And for most companies, they're better off just setting up a second dose Dave: Sure. Brian As opposed Dave: to process, Brian because how much volume there is. Dave: Yeah. Yeah. And I understand the IRS itself refers to these as a, a paper entity. So I guess since it's a paper entity, that's it. No need to fuss around with a bank account or actually have to capitalize it with actual money is there. Brian It's, it's recommended, but you're right, it's not required. There's no requirement in the disk rules to set up a bank account. Dave: Okay. Brian So there it could simply have. A receivable receiv for the capital stock. And that can be, its working capital doesn't have to have a bank account, but that's sort of a misnomer that people think it must have a bank account. Okay. In the original regulations, that was a requirement, but when the regulations are finalized, the requirement was removed. Dave: Okay. But practically speaking, it you probably wanna have a bank account. Brian Yes. Practically speaking, it makes all the sense in the world to have a bank account, a non-interest bearing bank account. Dave: And why is the non-interest bearing important? Brian Well, it, it has to do with one of the annual requirements of a disc. That 95% of its receipts have to be qualified export assets. I'm sorry, receipts. And so let's say in a year the company decides. You can't always decide not to use the DIS even though you've got it in place. So let's say the company says, well we're not gonna use the, this year we had a loss. In our business there's no using. Dave: Okay. Brian We say, okay, and then the DIS bank account earned a dollar 50 of interest income. Dave: Okay, Brian well 100% of the receipts are now not qualified receipts. Okay. Income and no other revenue. If there was a non-interest bearing bank account, it would just have no receipts and then it would be fine. But the earning, the dollar 50 of interest would disqualify that. Dave: Okay. So non-interest bearing account and then I guess the dollar amount in the bank account, what you start with, $2,500 initially. Brian Yeah, pretty much keep it there forever. Dave: But, but it doesn't matter if you end up, oh, if you're a little lazy and you forget to distribute all the money and you end up with 50 grand at the end of the year, that, that's not a problem, is it? Brian It is. Dave: It is. Everything's a problem Brian with you, Brian, because everything, 'cause the, these rules are draconian and everything can become a problem. So a commission dis anyway, a comm, [00:21:00] you know, a paper entity commission dis doesn't need $50,000 of working capital. And the IRS would hold that, that that's not a qualified export out. Like having too much working capital in DIS will cause it to fail. The other test, which is the 95 qualified export asset test 2,500, you know, an amount of cash equal to the capital stock is fine. Dave: Sure. Brian Amounts above that start to, you know, raise questions as to whether. That's reasonable working capital or not? Given that the entity's a paper entity, it doesn't really have any expenses. Maybe some bank fees. That would be about it. In most cases, it really doesn't need cash sitting. Dave: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe 3000, 3,500 to account for some bank fees or, Brian yeah, at most, yeah, we start getting about 5,000. It really starts to [00:22:00] look questionable. Dave: Okay. Oh, I just realized, I think in the initial assessment there was a step we forgot and that's, do they want to make it a buy sell disc or a commission disc? What percentage of your clients are commission discs? Mine a hundred percent. That's Brian 99%. Dave: Yeah. So we're just stepping ahead assuming that it would be a commission disc, Brian right. I mean, the only time you would really have a buy sell disc. 'cause if you have a business where. They're buying inventory from unrelated parties. And all the inventory is manufactured in the US and all of it is export. Dave: Yeah. Brian Okay. That, that, that I do have, like I said, two clients that have adopted that structure. One was commissioned disc with an S-corp and they converted, they merged the S-corp into the disc and just became an operating disc. You know, and that's a little different than a buy sell disc. I mean, an operating disc. People think of buy, sell dis an operating disc for the same thing. They're really not. I mean, 'cause you could have a, the equivalent of a commission disc, but have it be by sell where it could buy product from its related exporter and then export it. Dave: Okay. Brian It's possible that, that, that tho that fact pattern, I don't have any clients in. Dave: Okay. Brian It's possible. Dave: Okay. So we've got the election filed and then at some point the IRS will send the taxpayer letter approving the election, right? Brian Correct. That is, that was true. Dave: And then so we've got the, the B and usually it makes more sense to have the disc bank account at the same bank as the operating company, right? Brian It typically does, Dave: yes. Yeah. And we'll get into that when we get further into the operation of the disc. Okay. So it's all set up. And elections filed, election approved. So now certainly we're done with incorporation and government governance matters, right? Brian No. No, Dave: not yet. Brian Not yet. Not yet. Okay. We still have to make sure there's a a call, a related supplier agreement or disc commission supplier agreement in place between the, the exporting entity or entities and the disc itself. This document is, it's not, again, it's not required in the regulations, but it is recommended. It gives the related supplier a lot of flexibility in how it uses the disc and if it uses the disc and it gives it unilateral powers to decide not to use the disc. It also lays out the, you know, sort of boil legal boilerplate language about an inter intercompany agreement between the two business. Dave: So you could just go to chat GPT and have them spool up a one page sales agent agreement. Is that right? Brian Maybe. I don't know. I haven't tried that 'cause I don't wanna teach chat GPT how to, how to do that, but because every time you ask it a question, you teach it, right? Dave: Sure. Brian General, no, it's a pretty specific agreement and it has very specific provisions in it. Provisions and so somebody that knows what they're doing really needs to draft them. Dave: Okay. Okay. So this is kind of pointing away from just having your general corporate attorney who's never heard of a disc, do all that quote paperwork. Brian Yeah. I never recommend. I always recommend that a specialist do it, namely myself take care of it. Dave: Okay. Yeah. 'cause you are, in addition to having an accounting background, you're also a tax attorney, correct? Brian Correct. Dave: Correct. Okay. Brian Yeah. And you know, some of the documents that need to be created, yeah. That can be done by a general corporate attorney like bylaws and those as well and or other organizational documents that aren't disc specific can only be done by any attorney. But but if, but really it doesn't make sense to split that work up amongst different attorneys. Dave: Okay. Sure. Brian It all sort of be done by the same party to make sure that it's, that everything gets taken here. Dave: Okay. Brian And timely because there's a 90 day window to get this, in my opinion, to get this all done. Dave: Yeah, to co to coincide with the election filing. Brian Right. Because typically I don't provide any of the documents, including the election, to the, to the client until all these things are done. Dave: Yeah. Oh, I see. Sure, sure. Because then there's, Brian you know, they have to sign the disc election and there's all these other documents they need to sign and put in a minute book. And so rather than piecemeal it, we just give it to them all at once. Dave: Okay. So they've got their binder with all their signed documents or a signed copy of the 48 76 A that was filed a copy of the approval from the IRS. So now finally, are we ready to get started using our disc? Is there. Brian Collection the I. Yeah. As you've probably seen in the news, things are changing at the postal service as far as postmarks and what they can be relied on as when something was considered filed. So they're not promising the postmark things that they, you drop them in the mail anymore. Dave: Oh, really? Okay. I hadn't heard that. Brian Yeah. So it's recommended to go, like, walk it to a counter and have it hands stamped with [00:28:00] a postmark. Yeah. But more importantly, and unfortunately not everybody listens to this, send the form certified mail return receipt requested. 'cause many times document is sent to Kansas City and they lose track. Oh, we never got your dis election. We can't process your dis return, whatever. And then there's proof that it was sent and then they have to, you know, find it basically. Dave: Okay. Or Brian at least accept it, maybe even if they never find. Dave: Yeah. Brian But there's one other thing about the disc and that we didn't talk about and, and I'm reminded of it because something you asked me in passing last week, which is something about the year end of the disc, the year end of the disc must coincide with its principal shareholder. So if I have a C corp that's a fiscal year, but the owners of the disc aren't gonna be [00:29:00] individuals, that disc will be a calendar year disc. Dave: Sure. Brian Not be a fiscal year company. And you know, if. It's owned by, let's say an S corp that has a fiscal year, then the disc will have a fiscal year. It, it must have the same year as its principalship. Dave: Okay. Yeah. Good. Thanks for the reminder of that. Brian And sometimes the disc collection gets filled out incorrectly. Somebody assumes one thing and, and then when a return is filed, the IRS, they're like, they, they dunno what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Now finally, do we have a little bouncing baby disc to be delivered to its proud parents? I think so. Dave: Okay. Okay. Okay. Brian And that's usually, it's usually about three to five months after it was formed. Dave: Okay. Brian Is when it started eating solids. Dave: Okay. Alright, so now we've got the disc set up and 9:45 AM I'm, I'm sorry, I keep touching my watch and it says the time, apparently it's time to just take off my watch. Okay. So now, so let's just say that they have not yet set up the bank account. They've done everything else, and now it's time to set up the bank account so they, you know, call their local banker. They get it set up at the same bank, so it can be on the same online banking platform. And then they fund it. And does it matter where the funding comes, comes from for that bank account? Can they just like say the company. I mean, can just anybody fund it? Say there's three shareholders, can just one shareholder write a check for $2,500 to fund it? Or how does that all look? Brian Well, I mean, there, there will be a subscription agreement that shows how much each shareholder owes for their shares, and each shareholder should pay for them. Okay. Can't just be one. Dave: Okay. So we have the bank account set up, we're ready to go. And so now we're at the end of the year, or approaching the end of the year. Let's say we're in November of 2026. Anything we need to do before the end of the year Brian for an accrual based taxpayer? No. Okay. There's nothing paid to do, but before the end of the year. Dave: And what about for a cash basis? Brian For a cash basis, taxpayer, if we want a deduction in 2026. We need to pay the DIS in 2026, so Dave: we Brian would need to gather information in order to estimate a DIS commission for 2026 before the end of the year. Dave: Okay. So cash basis, that's what we need to do by the end of the year. Accrual basis. Basis, no. Do I need to do [00:32:00] anything by the end of the year? Brian You don't need to. You have an option to, if you'd like to, if you wanna have an idea of what the disc commission might be, or you actually wanna pay it before the end of the year, but there's no requirement. Dave: Yeah. And if you don't, and if you don't pay it by the end of the year, you get a deferral benefit Brian possibly. Dave: Yeah so say, say you did a hundred million of exports and your commission was $20 million. You just get to defer that whole thing till the next year, right? Brian No, Dave: no. Brian, all you say is No. Every good idea have you just say No. Brian It could defer 10% of it to the next year because only the income related to 10 million of export sales can be deferred, and it'd be a little less than 10% because the disc wasn't there the whole year. So we'd have to prorate that 10 million for the number of days the disc existed. And then some sliver can be deferred, but the rest of it is gonna be taxed to the shareholders as a deemed dividend Dave: in the current year. In the Brian current. Dave: Okay. Brian Then not taxed when physically distributed in the following. Dave: Okay, so we have an accrual tax payer. We get into the to 2027, and let's say they're extending their corporate return and they're planning to file that in August of 27. So we're done. We don't have anything else to do before August. Right? Brian That's not true either. Dave: Brian, Brian you're Dave: killing me. Brian Yeah, well, it, I mean, it depends. If nothing was done before the end of the year, then something needs to be done within the first 60 days after the accrual base taxpayer. Or, you know, let's say the cash base taxpayer says, I don't [00:34:00] care if I get my deduction next year, so I'm not gonna pay anything this year. Something needs to be paid at this within 60 days of the end of the year. Dave: So is this one of those things like the sales agent agreement, that that's just recommended? Brian No, this is required. Dave: Required. Okay. Brian Yeah. This is required. This is, this is one of the hot buttons the IRS will try to use to disqualify your disc. Dave: Okay. Brian So the disc accrues a receivable at the end of the year, even though it doesn't know the amount at the end of the year for all, for, for disc purposes and books an an accrual for the income at the end of the year. That accrual or the receivable is only a qualified export asset if, if the payment rules around that receivable or satisfy. Dave: Okay. Okay. Brian One Dave: rule Rules. Rules. There's always rules. Brian Yeah. It's very draconian. You have a 60 day rule and a 90 day rule. 60 day rule says you must pay a reasonable estimate of the disc commission to the disc within 60 days of the end of the year in cash or. It could be cash, it could be a note. Dave: And reasonable is just any old amount. You just put your finger in the air and ah, I think a hundred dollars is reasonable. Brian Again, that's not the case. There is a safe harbor for what is reasonable, and that safe harbor is f at least 50% of the final commission amount that you Dave: determine. But how do you know that in February Brian you have, Dave: if you're not preparing the corporate, Brian you have to try to compute an estimate before the end of FE Dave: and you have to nail it exactly at 50%. So if you think the commission's gonna be $1,217,412, you need to pay exactly 50% of that, Brian at least. [00:36:00] Dave: Oh, at least. So you could pay more. At Brian least you could pay more. And we always recommend maybe paying 75 to 80%. Dave: Okay. Brian Because if you pay whatever you pay. That amount is gonna be your limit. So if you thought it was gonna be a million and you paid 500,000 and it turns out to be 1,000,500, too bad. So sad, you only paid 500,000, you're capped at a million. Dave: Okay? I mean, that's the safe harbor. I suppose there might be circumstances where, where one could argue that they maybe the first year of the disc, and you know, they, they, Brian you can argue it, you can try to argue it, but there's no guarantee that the IS will accept any of the arguments. And the private letter rulings that exist from the 1970s would imply that they, they're really not going to accept just about any rationale for being reasonable other than that 50% bright [00:37:00] line safe harbor. Dave: Okay so you make the payment, Brian make that payment, and. Dave: Can you just book a journal entry? Do you, do you actually have to really move the money? It sounds like a hassle. Brian I mean, in, in general you have to, you have to either create a note or move cash. Dave: Okay. Brian Okay. Dave: But that might be a lot of money though. Like what if, what if it's like $2 million and million? The company only has a million dollars in the bank. Brian They could use the same capital multiple times. Dave: Oh, okay. Brian And roundtrip the money as many times as they need to, or like I said, use the, use the promissory note. Dave: Okay. Brian Short term promissory note to satisfy that requirement because it does say cash or property. Dave: Okay. So we get through February, we've made our, our 60 day payment. We've, we've, you know, sh sh we've, we, instead of doing 50%, we did about 80% of what we thought it was gonna be to give us some cushion, and now we can go take a vacation till the till the corporate returns ready. Brian Yeah. I, I, I think so. Dave: Okay. Brian I think so. Dave: Okay. So it's time to now. So it's time. Now, if they extend that corporate return, I guess they're gonna have to extend the disc return as well. Brian Well, the disc return is due September 15th as a matter of course. Dave: Oh, Brian are handy. There are no extensions. So really as far as the disc and its compliance goes, once you make that 60 day payment, there's really not much you can or should do or are able to do until the related entities tax return. Prepared. [00:39:00] So a lot of times they'll say, well, that's not gonna be done till September 15th, and we have to have a discussion about how that doesn't work because the disc return has to be done by September 15th, but in order to do the disc return, you need to basically a completed within it supplier returns. So then we have to work backwards from September 15th to figure out like when's the latest they can have that, that other return done in order Dave: to Brian get the disc return done. Now that's relatively easy in the past through context because all those pass through returns are also due September 15th on extension. Dave: Sure. Brian Whereas a C corporation, it's not so easy because the extended due date for a C corporation, if it's a calendar year is October 15th. So it may be that you have to file a disc return with a made up number on time and then amend it after. Okay. After September 15th. I've done that a number of times. Dave: Okay. So that makes sense. Brian Because as is good as CPAs are, they're deadline driven. So if a return is due October 15th, they're unlikely to have it done by the end of August. Dave: Yeah. Okay. So it's time to file the disc return. I assume the CPA firm probably has that disc return and their standard tax software with all the other forms. So you just have the CPA go ahead and prepare the disc return. I've looked at it, it's a short return. It's like 10 pages long. So you just go ahead and have the CPA prepare the disc return, then bing, bam, boom, you're done. Brian Could do that. Dave: Okay. Is there a drawback to doing that? Brian Yeah, it would probably be wrong. Dave: Okay. Why do you say that? Now, remember [Brian, we have a lot of CPAs who we have very good relationships with that we share clients, you know, saying that they're probably gonna do it wrong. I mean, heck, I don't really wanna annoy all my great CPAs we work with Brian Well, okay, but it, well, it's just a fact. It'll probably okay Dave: be Brian wrong because they might see one or two or three a year. They, they think they know what all the different terms on the district return mean, but they're not as familiar with that as they are with a S Corp return or a partnership return, or 1120. So they do what they think is right, and it may be right, it may not be right. So again, I, in my opinion, you want a specialist preparing the district return. Dave: Okay. Brian Okay. Because we know exactly how it's supposed to be filled out. And then if, if the calculation is done on a transaction by transaction [00:42:00] basis, there's this schedule P that gets attached to the return. Well, if you don't do a T by T, there's one Schedule P. If you do a T by T, there could be thousands of them. So I don't think CPAs and their software are equipped to complete thousands of schedule Ps and attach Dave: Yeah. Brian To the district. Dave: No, good point. And you're, you're getting your your enthusiasm to get to T by t had me, you got a little ahead of me. 'cause I was gonna ask, so client says, Hey, we have a desk. Our accounting department's busy. What's just the bare minimum of information we need to send you? What's the bare minimum? Brian Bare minimum would be qualified export sales. Dave: They just need to send you a number. Brian Yes. Dave: Then you take that number and how hard can it be? Right. Just take the, Brian it's not, it's not necessarily that hard at that point. Dave: Yeah. But say the profit on those sales [00:43:00] is the average profit of the company and taxable profit. And you compute the disc commission, you go through the Schedule P and compute the disc commission and pick the higher of the two numbers that you, that you compute. So you would just be like the final draft, corporate return and that total export number, you know, dollar amount for the year. And, and that's really all you need to, to do. That's Brian the bare bone. That's the bare bones, yeah. Dave: Okay. And that's what some people would call the standard calculation or a simple calculation, Brian I'd call it simple. Yeah. Dave: Okay. And that's also known as the 4% 50% calculation in some circles. Right. How does that work? Brian Well, it's also known as the safe harbor calculation in certain circles as well. Back to that, Dave: back to that safe harbor again. Brian Yeah. But that's actually not a safe harbor, so that's why I bring that up. Dave: Okay, well Brian that's the safe harbor calculation. I'm like, no, it's not. It's just the [00:44:00] calculation. There's nothing safe harbor about Dave: it. Okay. Brian Okay. It's just the rules that are found in the code and regs for computing and disc commission, and they're the two predominant methods. 4% of sales and the 50% of net profit, Dave: you just cherry pick whichever one works better. Brian Yeah, but the 4% method has limitations. So Dave: more limitations probably. Why? Why can't this just be simple? You said it was the simple calculation and now you're already telling me there's inherent complexity. Brian Even if it's simple, it's not totally simple. Dave: Okay. Okay, Brian so the, and I've seen this done wrong. Millions, well, not millions, hundreds of times, and I can say it is hundreds of times. Client computes the 4% method just by choosing 4% of sales. They don't look at what their net income is on the, on the [00:45:00] activity. They just say, oh, I'm allowed to use 4% of sales. The limit there is you cannot create a loss. There's something called the no loss rules. You can't create a loss with a disc commission if one doesn't already exist. So if the profit on, say, on the sales are 2% of sales, you can't take 4% of sales. You're limited to 2% of sales. And if, for example, you have a loss of the company, you're limited to zero. But I've seen situations where that's completely ignored. Dave: Okay? Brian Properly computed this commission of 4% of sales, but it should have been something less or possibly zero. Dave: Okay? So more complexity, but the good news, that's the extent of the complexity. One, schedule P, 4%, 50%, you know, make sure you, you don't create a loss. Now we're, we're all done. Pop. You [00:46:00] know what, what? Dusted and dusted and delivered we're, we're good to go. They've maximized their dis commission, right? And we're all done. They have a nice 10 page return to send to the IRS. Which by the way, can they file that electronically, that return? Brian Fortunately, there are no provisions for electronic filing of the disc return. It must be, Dave: what is this, the 1970s or something? Brian Pretty much Dave: Okay Brian with, with regard to the disc? Yeah. And, and some other forms. Yeah. But the, the, the benefit of that, here, I'll give you a benefit. The benefit of the fact that you must file a paper return is they can have an electronic signature on it. Okay. It doesn't have to have a wet signature. Dave: Okay? Okay. Brian So you could theoretically, for example, send your client the return using DocuSign, have them sign it. You print it, you file it for, Dave: okay. Okay. But, but now we're finally done. It's signed, it's done. And they say, boy, thank you very much, Brian. You've done, your team did a great job, and boy, I really appreciate, you know, we had 10 million of exports. We have all kinds of variability in our profit margins. And, but thank you very much. You, you created the amazing $400,000 or you calculated the 400,000 disc commission. Thank you very much. I couldn't imagine you went above and beyond. I couldn't imagine you could have done anything more. And then what do you say? Do you graciously say, oh, you're welcome. It was our pleasure. Brian I would graciously say, you know, we, we've just computed your minimum disc commission. Dave: Okay, Brian not your maximum. Because you have Dave: vast, lemme guess. Lemme guess. There's more complexity coming. Brian More complexity, which relies on more data being. Pulled from the client's [00:48:00] records to, to allow for a calculation of the DISC commission at a more detailed level, ideally at a line item by invoice level, Dave: line item. That sounds like a lot of work. Brian It can be. Can be a Dave: lot. What if the client says, our accounting department's busy? Sounds like we're gonna have to spend weeks gathering all this data for you. Eh, it's just, we're too busy, it's not worth it. What do you say then? Brian I gu I almost can guarantee you it will be worth it. Okay. Because looking at the detail is likely to cause at Disconnect commission to be anywhere from 50 to three, 400% higher than what it otherwise would've been. Now, unfortunately, in that first year, since you've already filed with a certain number, you're limited to two times what you paid in that 60 day window. But going forward. You know, there's no limit. Dave: Okay. Brian Whatever we compute can be your disc commission. So different industries have different amount of variability and t and transaction by transaction calculations have different impacts depending upon the industry, the profitability of the business, how many products they have, who they sell to. But it can vary. But I'll give you an example of one that we worked on recently where company had a hundred million of export sales. They took 4% of sales, and they've been taking 4% of sales year after year, after year, after year, after year, Dave: okay. Brian They brought us in like three weeks before the district return. Dave: Okay. Brian And we went through the calculations and we actually calculated 17 million Dave: as opposed to 4 million. Brian As opposed to four. Dave: [00:50:00] Yikes. That's a big difference. Brian It's a huge difference. And fortunately they were, you know, well, I mean they were very pleased with the result. And so now on a going forward basis, we're not doing 4% of sales. Dave: Okay? But you still have this. But if they were able to get a $17 million commission, then that means their corporate taxable income must have been at least 17 million. 'cause didn't I hear you say the disc commission cannot cause a loss. Brian It cannot cause a loss at the level at which you're computing the commission. So there's no, you're killing me, Brian. Just more complexity. Yeah. Well, it's very complex area. There's, there's no overall no loss rule. Like if you, you can, as long as you're meeting the rules as they're written, you can cause your entity to go into a loss position. Now, this particular instance, it did not do that, but [00:51:00] you could do that. Dave: Okay. And then if you get into a loss position, there are other non disc complexities that come into play that impact whether you want to maximize the loss in that entity or you want to target a particular loss in that entity. And that's not something that we get involved with, but we're certainly sensitive to it. Sure. Sure. And so you're saying for this client, even though I've heard some people say you've got the simple calc and then the hard calc. And so you'd wonder why would anyone do the hard calc? Well, it's because their commission went from 4 million to 17 million, which saved them hundreds of thousands of dollars. You created hundreds or millions of dollars with additional tax savings. Brian Right, right. Dave: Okay. Brian And by the way, after the first conversation we had with them, they said, oh [00:52:00] yeah, this is not something we can do. The accounting department said, this is not something we can do. Then the owner said, this is something you're gonna, Dave: it's funny how that, how that works. Okay. And then I'm guessing this extra work. You, you're probably gonna have to create another schedule P or two. So now the disc return, it's gonna be 10 pages. It's what? 20 pages? Is that kind of a typical page count? Brian No, it could be Dave: no. Brian Thousands of pages. Dave: Thousands. I mean, Brian, a ream of paper is 500. So thousands would be reams of paper. Brian Yes. I've had some returns that have like 15 binders of paper. Dave: Yikes. Brian Yeah. Just goes in a big box and I'm sure the IRS types, all those schedule Ps into their, Dave: I'm sure they do. Okay. So the return gets filed, so the return's ready. You take that box, you just slap a you print off a postal label online, drop it off at the post office. And you're done, right? You just give it to carrier, Brian understand, Dave: carrier, carrier your house or whatever. Brian Well, you can send it via FedEx. You can send it via UPS. And actually, in some ways, I think that might be better these days than the postal service. Dave: And why do you have to do that? Can you just slap, I mean, if you have your 15 binders, couldn't you just put a hundred stamps, you know, on the, the box and ship it in because they'll get it, right? I mean, it's not like they're gonna lose it or anything. Brian They might, they could very well lose it. And you definitely want proof of delivery and you want proof of mailing. So again, it's a certified mail if you're using the postal service or if you're using a private carrier like FedEx, you know, you get all that documentation about when it was shipped and when it was delivered.[00:54:00] Dave: Okay, well now at least we're finally done. Right? You ship it off. The CPA pulls the numbers from the disc return, puts it on the corporate and shareholder returns. Now we're done. It's gone to the IRS. We never have to think about it again. Right. Brian I'm not sure if that's a trick question or not, but in some ways that could be true, Dave: right? Yeah. But it, but I guess you could get audited, right? Brian Could get audited by an agent who has no idea what they're doing, which is typically the case. Dave: So that's why you want your CPA defending you in that case. 'cause then it's like the blind leading the blind. Brian No, I think it's better if someone with site is involved. So again, the specialist who did the disc work should represent the taxpayer or be involved with the representation of taxpayer in the case of the audit. Dave: Okay. Brian And the should be involved. Because really what's under, what's really in question is the [00:55:00] deduction on that entity's tax return. The dis itself doesn't pay tax. So they rarely audit a dis quote. Dave: Okay? So if I break it down, you to do it really right? You need a specialist to guide you on the initial structure of the disc. You need another specialist to set up the, the disc. You need another specialist to do all the paperwork, make sure the document's correct another specialist to prepare the return, and then another specialist to defend you. So is that about right? So do you need like five different people to make sure everything's done right? Brian? Isn't there some way that you could just have one person that could just do it all for you and be done with it? Brian Well, of course. Dave: Okay. Finally, finally, I get a simple answer, Brian right? So if you, if you engage a disc specialist, that [specialist should be able to do all that. Dave: Okay? Brian Okay. Now, not every disc specialist is created equally. Dave: Sure. Brian You know, I brought up during our conversation that there are some non disc things that can also add complexity to the situation. Not every disc specialist will be sensitive to those things. Not every disc specialist will understand those things. So the benefits that like our organization brings is that. Least myself in particular, I didn't always just do IC disc work. I, I, I have a well-rounded knowledge of all of the, of the tax world. And so I am sensitive to non disc things. You know, for example, you know, another example, oh, a company has a lot of export sales. You would think it's a no brainer. They should have a dis, they should use the dis. They should, they, they should want to convert that ordinary income to qualified dividend [00:57:00] income. Well, what if the S-corp is owned by an ebit? What if there are passive shareholders? All of those things impact whether the disc commission actually helps or hurts their tax situation. And I would get, I would venture a guess that, you know, if you went out and Googled, you know, I see this specialist, you would find a handful. At most that understand all that stuff and how all it all interplays together as opposed to the multitude of those that won't understand any of it. Dave: Okay. Brian So I think a, a disc specialist that is sensitive to all the other tax rules is, is definitely something that is valuable. Dave: And you probably want someone with some experience who's done maybe, you know, what a dozen disc returns in their career, maybe 50 if they're really good. Like how many, how many have we done organization wide? Probably Brian probably 10,000. Dave: 10,000? Well, that's a lot more than 50. Brian Yes. Over the years it's probably close to that number. And we've probably claimed billions of dollars of just deductions and saved clients, hundreds of millions of dollars of tax. And, and I'm proud to say that every dollar we've ever claimed we've. Okay. Dave: So Brian I've never had an adjustment from the IRS. Dave: Well, that sounds like a, a good a good record. So bottom line, Brian that's, that's the best you can come up with a good record. I'd say it's Dave: well, I didn't wanna say a perfect record. I didn't want to jinxy. Brian No, but it's, it's, it's, it's pretty outstanding record. Dave: Yeah. It's a, it's an impressive record Brian because there are also just providers out there that say, well, you know, Dave: it's the Wild West. Brian The wild west, the IRS doesn't really understand it, so let's be as aggressive as possible. And, and that's not the way we approach it. Dave: Yeah. Wow. Well, this has been this has been a lot. So really it's that simple. So the person who wants to just do all this themselves, we've laid out the whole playbook for them. Brian Yeah. The only simple thing they have to do is call us. Dave: There you go. That is it. Yeah. And, and oh, the other thing, not only are you the Bob, hope you now have moved from number two to number one for the most experienced icy disc guy. I know now that Neil Block is retired. Brian Well, that's, I don't know if that's a plus or not. Whether I'll take it just means I've been doing it a long time myself. So Dave: yeah, Neil was, I think my second, first or second guess. And and I was just happy. 'cause his billing rate back then was like $1,500 an hour. I was just glad I didn't get a bill a month later for him being on the podcast. But he, [01:00:00] he did it for exactly 50 years at one firm, baker and McKinsey in Chicago. He had one office, one phone number, like the whole 50 years. Brian Yeah. That's, Dave: that is something you don't see much anymore. Brian Definitely not, no. It's, but it's very, that's. That's very cool. And Neil is a very, you know, is a very intelligent savvy guy. Dave: Yeah, that is for sure. Well, Brian, anything else that we didn't cover that you can think of? Brian I can't think of anything. I think we covered a, a great deal here. Dave: Okay. Brian Can't think. Dave: Well, I, I'll let Brian we omitted. Dave: Well, great. Well, hey, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And I'll let you get back to your, your exploration of your yard there. Brian Yeah. I feel like, it's funny I shrunk the kids. Dave: I know. Well, hey, well, well again, thanks again, Brian. We all appreciate your time. Brian You're welcome. Have a good day. Dave: You too.

Podcast: Fostering Conversations Host: Amy Smith Guest: Dave, Owner of Dave's Auto Episode Summary In this heartfelt episode, Amy sits down with Dave Bell from Dave's Auto Center to discuss his incredible journey of giving back to the community through Utah Foster Care and other charitable initiatives. Dave shares the deeply personal story of his mother's childhood in an orphanage, how that shaped his values, and why supporting foster families and children is so meaningful to him. From partnering with Mountain America Credit Union to organizing a massive community Christmas event, Dave's passion for service shines through every story. Key Topics Covered Dave's Background: From starting his auto shop in a storage unit to building a successful business over 36 years. Personal Connection: How his mother's experience as an orphan inspired his commitment to foster care. The Power of Service: Why giving back changes lives—both for those who receive and those who give. Community Christmas Event: Details about the annual Family Community Christmas in Farmington, serving thousands of families with food, clothing, toys, and holiday cheer. Encouragement for Listeners: Practical ways to get involved and make a lasting impact during the holiday season. Memorable Quotes “Service is a dividend that pays double.” – Dave “Be careful what you fill your mind with—your life depends on it.” – Dave “One caring adult can make all the difference.” – Amy Resources & Links Utah Foster Care: utahfostercare.org Family Community Christmas (Farmington, UT): December 20th at Farmington Fair Park Mountain America Credit Union: macu.com Call to Action Want to make this holiday season meaningful? Join the Family Community Christmas event or support foster families in your area. Your time and kindness can change lives. Transcript: Amy: Welcome to Fostering Conversations. I’m your host, Amy Smith. Today we have Dave with Dave’s Auto, Thank you so much for joining our podcast today. We’re excited to chat with you. Dave: I’m happy to be here. Thank you. Amy: So let’s start off by just introducing yourself, you know, what’s a little bit of your background and how did you get involved with Utah Foster Care? Dave: my background is, I’ve been a mechanic my whole life since I was 15. So that’s 50 years now. And I started the business here in Utah in 1990. So we’re starting our 36th year this year. And started in a storage unit in the dead of winter with no heat. And Lord, I’ve been very blessed. So that’s a little bit about me and where I came from and why I’ve gotta shop. Mountain American Credit Union came to me last year, a little before Christmas, and asked me to collaborate with them with Utah Foster Care. And I was so honored to do it, and they didn’t even know it. They just came to me because they wanted a a working kind of guy to be part of their ad campaign and everything. And then through, meeting the people and you know, talking to Utah foster care and everything a story came up and that story is probably why this is so near and dear to me, but no one knew that. But it’s unusual how people will get put in your life or you’ll get put in people’s lives and then it’s an answer to somebody’s prayer. You know, for me it’s an answer to my prayer ’cause I can give back. I’ve been so blessed in my life. And I hope that in some way that benefits Utah Foster care. So there’s a story there, and I don’t know whether you want that Amy: Yeah let’s just dive right in so that our listeners aren’t on the edge of their sheets like I am. Dave: Okay I’ll try to get through this. I’ve yeah, it’s an emotional story. okay. So my mother, God rest her soul. It was an orphan. So I’m looking for a tissue and of course in the mechanic shop, I got a shop rag here. Okay. Not really. Alright okay, I got that outta the way. Okay. My dear sweet mother, God rest her soul was the one of the finest women I ever knew, but she was an orphan. Now. I don’t know this, and I’m wondering when , the foster program kind of started in America. My mother was born in Ohio. She was put in an orphanage. This would’ve been back in 1940. Amy: Okay. Dave: She was put in an orphanage in Ohio and she lived her life there until my father married her and they were together for 56 years. Amy: Wow. Dave: Now I didn’t know why my mother, my whole life, I did not know why my mother went into an orphanage. I just, even growing up, I never knew. I never knew. I just didn’t know. And about a month or two before she passed away, she revealed to me how she ended up in an orphanage at six years old. And it’s amazing. You know how that shaped her life in a way. And I’m sure she’s not here to defend her. Not that she has to, but my mother never had the opportunity to be taught what a mother was. And but yet, My mother was a woman that had an apron on and I come home from school and there was a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for me and somebody to talk to. And she told me that I, when she passed and I asked her, how’d you end up being such a great mom? And ’cause she really was four children and plus my dad, which, okay, that was five children. She was a good mother and I think what it did is since she didn’t have a mother, She went the extra mile and she made sure that she was. The best mother. I remember speaking to women that came to her funeral that spoke about how she had inspired them to be better women and better mothers. And so anyway, my point of that was is to tell the people that are being foster care parents. My mother had some very nice things to say about the people that were in the orphanage. She never, you know, she, I can’t remember the lady’s name, but the mother of the orphanage, the head mother was a very kind woman. She wasn’t cruel or anything. She was a very nice woman. And my mother she taught her how to, my mother learned how to sew and cruise che and knit and meet, you know, all that stuff. And you know, for all our grandkids and everything, she would always be making booties and little sweaters and stuff like that. And so I think of that as what foster parents give to all these children that, for some reason or another, my mother did tell me why she and this is not an unusual story, probably, you know, my mother I’ll, I will tell this because she told me this she was put in an orphanage because during that time her mother was so poor. Then her mother turned to prostitution, Amy: Yeah. Dave: To take care of, you know, to feed herself. This was back in 1940 and America was a very, if you were poor, there wasn’t a whole lot of safety nets for you. And so my mother was taken by the state and put in an orphanage and she never got out of that. And and so I, you know, my heart goes out to a lot of these children. Amy: Yeah. Dave: They have to be removed from a home because their parents, it’s not that they’re making a bad decision it’s sometimes they don’t have another decision to make or, you know, things happen. And any way that I can help those children and these parents it’s one of me and my wife’s great goals. We all, we are my youngest son who’s 25, has autism the foster care community and the autism community is very dear to me. I think there’s a lot of kids with developmental disabilities in the foster care Amy: are. Dave: and Yeah. And the people that, gosh, you know, there’s angels all over the world and a lot of ’em were foster parents. Amy: A lot of them are foster parents. You’re right. And a lot of ’em are people like you who care and give back in incredible ways. So thank you for sharing kind of the. The hidden story behind why you do give back and why you do work with Utah foster care and have such a passion for caring for kids in need, and the foster parents that are taking care of them. That’s really neat. So I, I didn’t know that backstory, so thank you for sharing that and being vulnerable. That’s beautiful. Thank you. Dave: I tell you, if your editors hear this and say, gosh we gotta get that over again without him sobbing and. Just, I’ll do it over Amy: Nope. We don’t want that. We want the real deal. So thank you. Dave: Okay. Amy: that I love about it too is that you talk about, you know, your grandmother was. Was an incredible woman too, and she was doing what was best for her daughter, which was protecting her from a life of poverty and what she had to turn to. And a lot of kids in foster care are exposed to these really dangerous environments and these poverty environments where they cannot be provided for. And so I think having that compassion for these kids and for what they’ve experienced and them being placed in. Beautiful foster homes, but also that’s such a crappy situation, right? No one deserves to be raised in a foster home, but for their protection they have to be sometimes. So I think that’s a really neat parallel that you have. Dave: Yeah. It, you know, I was 58 years old before I knew the real story of why my mother was in it for, she kept Amy: Yeah. Wow. Dave: because she didn’t wanna put that on her mother. And I think as a mother. She went through hard times. My father was in the Navy for 24 years, and he was an enlisted man, not an officer. My parent, we were poor, but she never, so she understood what poverty was, but she never blamed her mother for it. It was, it’s just another gold star on my mother’s forehead because of the woman that, you know, I see. I see her now to be. Amy: And I love that because, so I actually am a previous foster parent. We fostered for four years and I’ve worked for Utah Foster Care. We’ve adopted children and something that is actually quite mind boggling to a lot of people who haven’t fostered, but you just nailed it on the head, is that these kids love their parents no matter what. No matter if they were placed in an orphanage or had to enter foster care. Or anything. That connection is so important, and I think a lot of outsiders don’t see that and they can’t understand it, but it’s really a big deal to most kids, Dave: Sure. I had a great childhood. I didn’t know I was poor until I was old enough to realize I was poor in my teenage years. You know, when you. Your clothes didn’t match the other kids. And the same thing that kids still to this day are faced with, but tenfold because of social media. Amy: Yes. Dave: But, and I can’t even, Ima, you know, my grandkids are subjected to that now, but you know, whatever I can do and I mean that whatever I can do to help families and these young people. Get through this, you know, and a lot of that would be the encouragement to say, you are capable, you have a divine spirit in you, and you’re capable of incredible things. And children need to hear that. They need to hear that what they can dream up is possible with hard work and discipline. And I’m an Amy: I was just gonna say that hearing your story and seeing how successful you are through many platforms is the epitome of, you know, success really. And that’s pretty impressive. Like you say, hard work determination, like these kids can be anything they want to be and put their mind to, and that is incredible. Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Amy: So why don’t you tell us a little bit about last year’s Christmas donation that you were part of with Mountain America Credit Union. Dave: Oh, that was fun. We did a a Jeep giveaway and we also delivered a bunch of presents We, we partnered with Mountain America Credit Union, who has just been such a great partner, you know, such a good company. You know, and they’re they’re a bank for crying out loud. I’m just a mechanic. And, to have the opportunity to partner with a great company like that and do something for a community that I’ve wanted to hook up with and never had an in, you know, was always in the autism space and things like that. And then to have this opportunity has just been wonderful. You know, there’s another thing I’ll announce that we do and it’s and I’ve been doing this with my family. We’re almost 30 years, but up here in Davis County, it’s called the Family Community Christmas, and it’s at the Farmington Fair Park and it’s on December the 20th. , That has grown from a couple of crockpots to over 3000 people served. In the homeless and foster community. And we we have pony rides, we have clothing set up. Every kid gets a new toy, not some old recycled toy. And that’s going on the 20th. And anybody that feels like their Christmas is gonna be less, and especially, and I would say this, not just people that are gonna have less for Christmas, but people that want to like really. Th this is the wonderful thing about this. Let me, if I could just pitch this, because it’s dear to my heart. Me and my family, even when my boys were little, me and my wife would go out there. We make hot chocolate now, and we do, we figure, we do about 80 gallons of hot chocolate Amy: cow. Dave: for this thing. Now there’s 3000 people that come and what makes this so great is every family or couple, they get paired with a family that comes from the community and they spend the afternoon with them. You know, helping them around in, in these areas where they can get clothing and food and hygiene supplies. Their kids can ride ponies or a sleigh and all kinds of stuff. It’s just a fun time and it’s all free. So if you’re a family that’s looking to help out, you know, you wanna jazz yourself up for Christmas, don’t go to Nordstrom for crying out loud. That’s just gonna, that’s just gonna hurt you. It is. You know, the credit card bill comes 30 days later and you’re like, I spent too much, or whatever. You know, do something that doesn’t cost you a dime, but that pays you. The reward is so much more. You can come out there and there’s a place they’ll put you with another family. And it would, I’ve seen I’ve seen people that thought they had all the problems in the world because they didn’t get a raise or, you know, the rent, I, you know, whatever. And they come out there and they spend two or three hours being of service to their fellow man, and they walk away this is the best Christmas I could ever have. And so if you wanna set yourself up for a positive Christmas. Do something like that, or, you know, give to the foster care community. Those are the things that make for a lasting memory for, you know, you’re not gonna remember what you bought in Nordstrom’s a year from now, and your wife ain’t gonna remember that piece of jewelry. Amy: it’s true. So how do people, if they want to give back, how do they get involved? Do they literally just show up? Do they have to sign up? What is the steps If you want to be a person that gives back. Dave: Okay. Good question. It’s the family community, Christmas, FC, C, and it’s there in Farmington. It’s on December the 20th. You can just show up and if you wanna bring some stuff, there’s brand new coats, there’s gloves, there’s socks, there’s winter clothes , Amy: I love it. And what, like if someone was listening thinking, Hey, I could really benefit from that resource, is it the same thing? Do they just show up or do they need to sign up and put in their info anywhere? Dave: They, if they just show up, they’ll get a ticket and they come in you know, I’m thinking they can, and it’s, the day is December the 20th and we’re gonna start at 10 o’clock taking families through. We’ll be there till three, four o’clock. Yeah, If you’re looking to just do something, I know a lot of times, like me and my wife are like, Hey, let’s go do something and we’ll go down to the homeless shelter and, you know, wash dishes or serve or something like that, you know, which is fun, but it’s you know, you’re by yourself and, but if you wanna just be a part of a lot of people feeling all that love and that great vibe this is the way to do Amy: Awesome. Okay. That’s such good information. I didn’t know about that, and I think there’s so many people looking to give back in December. So that is. Awesome opportunity, so thank you for sharing that. That’s great. Dave: Yeah. Amy: Okay, so let’s you, we’ve talked about the Christmas, something that I love that you said is for this community project you do as well as what you did for Utah Foster Care last year is you talked about. The new toys, the new items. I think that’s really important to touch on as this is rolling out in December and people are looking to give back. Yes. Things hand-me-downs are so lovely. I love hand-me-downs, right? There’s nothing against them. But I think these kids have experienced so much that new really matters. Dave: Oh, it, I think it makes a totally different, you know, you said you like hand me downs. I do too, because now I don’t, I’m okay to get it, you know, it’s not Amy: the only option. Dave: yeah. And you know, we’ve done that as a family before where. You know, I can’t remember last time when I bought a Christmas gift, to be honest with you, we don’t do that. I’m, and I’m not that, I’m a ba humbug kind of guy. I just, Amy: You do things that matter and are Dave: I, so if the kids, when they were young and they wanted we’d take all, we’d take the gifts around and I’d dress up like Santa Claus and I’d, we’d give the gifts away. And the kids, that’s what they remember. Now that’s a guarantee. My kids still to this day. Dang it. Talk about dad being funny, going around dressed as Santa Claus and they were mom and they see pictures. They were so young. Some of it they don’t really remember except through their, you know, the pictures. She’d dress ’em up as little elves Amy: man. Dave: and we’d go around and give gifts out to the community that was in need. . It was my kids’ gifts. And that’s what they remember. And I will promise you that, I can guarantee you look at my 30-year-old sons, now, and say, Hey, do you remember what you got when you were eight years old for Christmas? They couldn’t tell you and it might have been a bike , but I guarantee you what they remember is the experience of. Hanging out with dad making somebody happy. My wife was the most gorgeous miss Claus you ever saw, you know. Amy: I love that. So could you tell us a little bit, like what were, you, say your kids, that’s of course what they would remember, but what would you say was their experience doing that? I think about that and I think, would my kids be okay with that? What has, what was their experience when they were younger, you know, and were they okay with that? Dave: , In truth when the boys got a little older, they didn’t wanna wear the hats and the green thing anymore. But they certainly wanted to be a part of they just wanted to be themselves, you know, at so that changed. But other than that no. I think we caught ’em young enough when they just thought it was fun. Amy: Yeah, and it was normal, for your family. That’s what you guys did. Dave: Yeah. It was normal that, you know, my kids knew pretty quick who Santa Claus was. I wasn’t, I hope, I don’t wanna screw anything up here, Amy: I don’t think we have too young of listeners, but. Dave: they found out at a relatively young age that I guess dad could be Santa Claus. you know, you do watch your children in those situations. It’s nervous for ’em. ’cause they’re like, this is weird. This is, you know, it’s new. It’s different. but I think if they see the example that. It can be fun. And I’m guaranteeing you, you know, you put me in a Santa outfit it’s my alter ego. I know. Seriously. I I got a ho, ho, ho that’s just on point. Anyway, I think the kids just fell in line and, you know, and it was a wonderful thing for ’em. They, it’s all they would talk about during Christmas. Amy: Wow, that is really cool. Dave: Yeah, I, everybody, there’s a lot of people do this stuff. I, Amy: I. Dave: but I’m just saying, I I think a lot of people do this kind of stuff. It might look a little different, you know, a lot of people don’t feel comfortable dressing up like Santa Claus, me, I’m there. Amy: I love it. I love it. Sadly, these podcasts go by so fast and we’re already gonna be wrapping up in just a couple minutes, but if you could share maybe just one, one or two of your most favorite give back moments, I would love for listeners just to get to hear about that. I know, sorry, I’m totally putting you on the spot here. Dave: , we started our social media a little over two years ago at the wrangling of my, one of my sons kept telling me, you gotta do this, dad. And I was like, I’m, at the time I was 63 years old. I’m like, there’s, I’m not doing this, man. I didn’t even have a Facebook account. But anyway, he said, do that, you know, and so I started doing, and now that it’s worked out real well, but where I’m going with this was a family that I knew that was in the neighborhood and they knew me. When I showed up at their door, and this is when I used to live behind the shop, I used to live in the community that, where my shop is here in Centerville. I’m that guy. But some of the people that we helped out during that time, that was over 20 years ago was in my community and we just happened to know that there’re struggling. So we’d go to their houses and this young man was struggling with some problems and he had two little children and I knew he was a good guy. , I, it’s dude I’ve been there, drank too much, partied too much, , not making the right decision in your twenties or whatever, , and now you got all this weight on you and , you’re trying. And I could see that. And so we did that with him for a few years, and he eventually moved outta the community. Didn’t know where he went didn’t know what happened. And come to find out then when he recontacted me stopped him at the store, was happy, and I met him. I didn’t recognize the guy at first, and he started telling me about, and then I remembered who he was and his family, him and his wife had two more children. He’s a successful contractor doing construction and concrete work. Got a beautiful house, showed me a picture of his family, and just wanted to thank me. Amy: Yeah. Dave: So that was over 25 years. And somebody still, again, he didn’t, they didn’t re he probably couldn’t tell me what gifts I gave to his children. I certainly couldn’t remember what I gave him. But what he remembered was the outpouring of love and concern for his family. And I think too, I’d have to say he, the way he spoke to me, not that I was an inspiration, that he could have a business and do his own thing, because I wouldn’t take credit for that. But it was like I had enough faith in him and he told me, I saw what you could do and you’re nothing special. and that’s the truth. People, you know, people come up to me all the time, it’s so nice. I’ll be anywhere. And people go, oh, Dave and all that. And you know, and I’ll ask ’em, Hey, are you a mechanic? You know. You know, I just try to make a conversation with him. I’m nothing special. I feel that the world has been really kind to me. I try to look at it that way. The world can be very beautiful and kind to you, if that’s your outlook. Change your Amy: And it can be the opposite, if that’s your outlook. Dave: Yeah. Be careful what you fill your mind with. Like your life depends on it because by the way, your life depends on it. Amy: exactly. I love that story and it reminds me a lot in foster care. It’s often said one caring adult can make all the difference and it does. If someone cares and believes in you and shows up for you, maybe 25 years later, you’ll run into them in the grocery store. Dave: I Amy: And hear how successful they’re being. That’s incredible. Dave: Yeah. That’s. Is there really any greater moment in life than being certainly all those moments with your family and your spouse, but the next best one your brothers and sisters on this planet, that you have a moment in your life where you can just be part of their life to Amy: Yeah and see them doing well, especially after a hardship. That’s really cool. Dave: Yeah. It was super Amy: That’s amazing. Dave: So that’s one. I’m sure there’s a bunch Amy: Oh, of course. Dave: You hit you, you hit me cold there. That’s the Amy: I know. Sorry. You know, sometimes I just get a question and I need to know the answer, so thank you. I think just the last thing that we could wrap up with is, you know, what does serving your community, giving back to your community, what does that mean to you and what would you encourage others who are wanting to do that Dave: you know this I’ll tell you what it does in other people’s lives. I think I’ve talked enough about myself. This, family community Christmas that we have up here in Farmington every year. It started out at the Frodsham family farm. And if you live up here in Davis County, the Frodsham’s have been around. They own a landscape company. Barb and her husband Frank, were, they’re pioneer stock. They’ve been around since God made dirt around here. And so I’ll tell you what the answer to your question will be. Her story a couple years into it. I got to know Frank and Barb pretty good. And I said, you know, how did this start? And I can’t remember her daughter’s name and maybe it’s appropriate that I don’t say her daughter’s name, but she told me, you know, my daughter was going through a really bad divorce. It was just, it was really hard. And she was, why? You know, just what we do when we’re going through hard times, we fill our mind with how bad things are. And so her mom said, , this is not working. Okay, let’s do something for the neighbors for Christmas. And she got some crockpots together and some toys and stuff like that. And it started out like that with just a couple of families. And so the answer to your question is, what can giving back to the community do for not only yourself but the world? It changes the world. Nothing changes the world more than service. Service is a dividend. That pays double when you give service in any form, it pays double. Now, I’m not, I don’t mean in coinage, but it pays double in all. And sometimes it could be in coinage, you know, you meet the right people, things happen. I’m a big believer in how God can take the little bit that I have and just poof, blow it up. And so that’s what I would say about this. If you wanna make a real impact on this earth, just do a little bit of service and watch it grow Amy: I love that. That’s awesome. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for all the beautiful stories that you were willing to share, and thank you for all that you do for the community. It really is inspirational and yes, I know you don’t wanna take credit, but thank you. Dave: you. You’re welcome. Thank you. Amy: Thanks for joining us for Fostering Conversations. I’m your host, Amy Smith.

In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Randy from Trinity Bay Capital to talk about how specialized capital advisory bridges the gap between growing companies and the financing they actually need. Randy spent 17 years in traditional banking at First City and other institutions before moving into capital finance in the mid-1990s. His transition came from frustration with banking silos that prevented common-sense solutions for growing companies. After traveling extensively as a capital finance professional and later serving as president of a bank, he launched Trinity Bay Capital to help companies access everything from asset-based lending to purchase order financing. His approach differs from typical brokers because he pre-qualifies deals using his banking expertise, then targets just three carefully selected lenders rather than shotgunning dozens of institutions. What makes Randy's work compelling is how often he solves problems without charging fees. One client I referred received three competitive term sheets that gave him leverage to renegotiate with his existing bank, getting everything he wanted at no cost. Randy's focus on matching companies with conventional banks whenever possible, even when capital finance would pay higher fees, demonstrates how his business model prioritizes client outcomes over transaction volume. His internal 48-page reference guide of specialized lenders reflects decades of relationship-building across oil and gas, maritime, manufacturing, and distribution sectors. Randy's philosophy that "I don't need to work, I do this because I enjoy it" explains why 75% of his pipeline comes from Texas energy companies that conventional banks won't touch, and why he celebrates when clients find better deals elsewhere.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Randy turns down fund management opportunities that would pay more because accepting them would recreate the banking silos he left to escape. Trinity Bay Capital targets just three carefully selected lenders per deal instead of shotgunning 12-20 institutions, achieving 95% term sheet success rates. A construction mat company couldn't get financing because their primary assets wear out quickly, until Randy found lenders who advance directly on depreciating equipment. Randy helped a frack pipe manufacturer secure $30 million after eight conventional banks declined, simply by knowing which bank was allowed to do oil and gas deals. One client found a better deal independently, and Randy celebrated it instead of pushing his commission, telling him "as long as I can work with you, that's awesome." Randy's success fee from conventional banks is often reduced compared to capital finance companies, but he always takes clients there first because it's what they deserve.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Randy Gartz (https://www.linkedin.com/in/randygartz/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance Randy GartzAbout Randy TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good morning, Randy. How are we today? Randy: We're doing great. How are you? Dave: I am doing great. Thank you. Where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Randy: Houston, Texas. Dave: Okay. Me as well. So I was just trying to think, how long have I known you? I think it's been over 20 years. Randy: It's been since the mid nineties. Dave: Has it been that long? Wow. So more like 30 years. Randy: Yes. Dave: We're getting old, my friend. Hey, I look a lot older than you did. That's subjective. So I've got some questions for you. Some I think I know the answer to, some I don't. Why don't we start? I'm a sequential learner. Let's start at the beginning. Where are you from originally? Are you from Southeast Texas? Originally? Randy: I'm an Air Force brat and I was born in El Paso, Texas. Dave: Okay. Randy: And we moved about every two years after that until I was in high school. Well, actually in high school I was at three different locations. And then starting from college on Texas a and an, I've been in Houston ever since. Dave: Why did I forget that you're in Aggie? Because where I went to school and I guess we've been able to get past that. Randy: I don't talk about that much. It's probably one of the main reasons a and m was good to me, but in my past. Dave: Yeah, no, I hear you. I'm just having fun with you. So I suppose moving every two years, that will help you learn rapport, building interpersonal skills, I suppose. Randy: Absolutely. That helped me go to city to city when I was traveling for capital finance companies and just introduce myself about a problem and just, hi, how are you? Who are you? What do you do? So yes, absolutely. Dave: So your degree from Texas a and m? Finance. Randy: Finance. And then I went to U of H and worked on an accounting degree. Dave: Okay. So what was your first job out of college? Randy: Oh, it was at credit training program for First City and Texas. Dave: Oh wow. They really had a great training program, didn't they? Randy: Two years long. Yeah, absolutely. We were working sometimes seven days a week and Saturday and Sunday the air conditioner wasn't working, wasn't on in building. And it's enough like it is today. Dave: No, I remember when I was at Arthur Anderson working one of our clients' weekends, those high rises had air conditioning on the weekends. You had to pay for it and we were not, were deemed worthy of air conditioning on the weekends. Randy: That's right. That's right. Dave: So you started out at traditional banking, Randy: Started at traditional banking, did that for about 17 years. First City and all of its precursors. First city in bank. Bank one, they finally sold to Chase. And then right after they sold to Chase, my manager at the time had gone to a capital finance company and he asked me to follow 'em. And that's when I got involved with Capital Finance. That was back in mid nineties. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed being on help companies. It wasn't like you're in silos at banks and the regulators can only allow you to do so much that there's so much more out there for companies to be able to provide them with growth capital, turnaround capital, acquisition capital that most people, most CFOs don't even know. And so I really enjoy that. I went back to conventional banking when I'm woman by the name of Mary Bass and I think you might know her. Dave: I know Mary. Yeah. Randy: She followed me for two years trying to get me to go to Redstone. Randy: Redstone was a small little bank. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I didn't want to go to back to banking after I'd gone to Capital Finance and after two years of her calling me every two, three days a week when I was traveling three and a half weeks out of every month for four years Earth saying stuff like, rainy, where are you? When's the last time you saw your son pitch? When's the best time you were with your wife? What'd she do tonight? It's like, Mary, I'll interview. I've got to know that if I say no to this interview, you're not going to call me anymore. Well, I went on an interview, I met with David Chin Decker and he got me to go back to conventional finance and it was a good thing at the time, both he and Bob Hendrickson, who was president at the time of Redstone, had both grown up in the national division of First City's asset-based lending. Dave: That's Randy: What they were trying to bring over to this very small bank. We grew that bank from 58 million to 1,000,000,002 in three years. Dave: That is serious growth Randy: And most of those customers are still there. So it worked. But when you go on to other banks and all the silos that they have, you can't grow. You can't help companies as much as you would like if you know what's available. And I don't mean that to be mean to conventional bankers. Conventional bankers, I have all their respect or I respect them tremendously, but I just think that don't know what's still available. So Dave: It's Randy: Right going out there and trying to educate them to know, Hey listen, if you can't do this, here's what we can do. Dave: Yeah, no, I get it. And I know that as is typical in the banking business, most bankers don't serve at one bank for 40 years. There's always movement. And what I'd like to do though now is I'd like to skip forward to your May gig. I mean, I think the bottom line takeaway was your career was split between traditional corporate lending from the banker level all the way up to senior executive level. You've done the capital finance piece. It sounds like you wanted to create a new combination, new offering to the marketplace. So talk to me about what prompted you to start Trinity Bay Capital. Randy: I think, and I won't name his name, but I had just come back one day from booking an $85 million deal. I was by myself. I was doing all the settlement work. I was there for eight hours at this closing. And when I came back to the bank with all the paperwork and I walked in and I was really happy we got a large deal done, which eventually turned into a much larger deal. The first words out of my president's mouth was, Randy, any more deposits well understand. But this was a pretty good deal. And that together with all the silos that conventional banks have, the inability to do things that should be done, common sense things, but just conventional banks can do because of the regulators and because you can't put a hundred bankers out there and just let them be run out there and do everything they want to do. You can't do that makes conventional bankers conventional. But after being an capital financed group and also being at Redstone's Mezzanine and Equity Group, it taught me all the additional options that we have out there to be able to provide. So I thought at the time I was 63 years old, do I want to go to another bank? Am I tired of these silos? Yes, I am. I decided to just start my own company. I've been asked to take on funds and be able to lend our own money, but that would put me right back in the silos. Dave: Sure. Randy: I just enjoyed helping companies. It just makes me happy. And I wake up every morning, I come upstairs to my third floor office overlooking the bay and no silos, no having to sell every little credit card option that's out there. It just makes me happy. And so I know David, I don't know what I'd do if I retired. I never even considered it. I am enjoying what I'm doing now. I'm happy where I'm at and I'm happy making people happy. Dave: That is awesome. So help me understand who's like your ideal customer? What are the characteristics of the person you can help the most Randy: Fast growing companies, I mean, when you think of me as a broker, which I hate the term, there's 55,000 brokers out there. I trust five. Understood the difference. Lemme first start with the difference. The difference is that I've run credit departments, I've been on credit committees, I've been ping a bank. I know what banks can do and what they can't do. So when a bank can't do something, that is who should come to me, Dave: That Randy: Is who the banker should send me to. And it's not just because it's turnaround, it's not because they're in trouble. Maybe they're growing too fast, the lines of credit are going to be diminished, convince somebody just can't liven to leverage themselves up to the extent they need to take on the growth that they're seeing, acquisition growth where they're going to have to leverage your company with asset base collateral. Those are the type of things that we can do so we can actually help really good companies. For example, and unfortunately I say unfortunately for me it is, but 75% of my pipeline is oil and gas. I've been in Texas for 45 years. Oil and gas just follows here in Houston, Texas. And so just they call me that and maritime. So those two industries really can run our business alone. Although I would much rather have a lot of other manufacturer distribution and service companies than a lot of those companies. A lot of those CFOs owners of the companies, they have no clue what is available out there or why they can't get financing at the time. Maybe that's changing today, but at the time a lot of banks weren't allowed to venture into oil and gas. Oil and gas is a very cyclical industry, Randy: The ups and downs. If you don't do an oil and gas company in an asset based selection, you're bound to have trouble later on when the SLE falls because a lot of those assets can disappear. Randy: But on an asset based business, conventional banks can't do that. But not a lot of conventional banks are allowing their asset based lenders to do it today. So for example, I had a company that was a pipe manufacturer. They supplied from the pipe all the way to the dynamite and they had gone to eight different conventional banks, been declined every single time. When they came to me, I asked them, who'd you go to? Well, none of those guys have been to your deal because they're not allowed to. Their ownership was not allowing to do it. Took 'em to the first bank that I knew would do it, and we got that deal closed this year. A 30 million line of credit was with a $20 million accordion and well potential accordion they didn't need at the time because they were on the downhill run. But that bank knew how to do it. That bank, that lender knew how to do it. We knew who to go to. That deal got done. Dave: So let me just take a step back to make sure the audience understands. So your company doesn't actually yourself lend money. You're basically an intermediary between the capital markets, I guess primarily debt markets. Do you guys do any equity? Randy: We do some equity on the oil and gas side. I don't have that many providers on manufacturing distribution service, not oil and gas. Dave: It's mostly, yeah. And impart of what makes you unique is that you have, because of your background, you're able to match up the deal with the bank and want it simple Randy: For probably over 35 years. 35 years ago, a man by name of John Flatow at that time was at Briggs. Dave: Yeah, Randy: Put out this spreadsheet for me. And on the vertical column it had all of his customers on the horizontal column. It had everyone they could refer him to. What that did for me was realize that in the capital finance side where I was traveling throughout the United States, Canada, and sometimes Mexico, I was relating with so many financial providers and I've started taking down names and I've got a book, single page, probably 48 pages now of who does what likes, what their rates are, what their structure is. And so what makes us different than most other brokers is that, number one, I know what a bank can do and what they can't do. Randy: And when banks, we put together or I request all the financial information, all the documents that a banker would need in order that a financial officer would need, we put that together. We do our own pre-flight, which most all bankers now need to do to get credit to allow them to offer term sheets. We decide where the risk level is of each one of our customers after we decide if we can help 'em or not. Some customers don't have cash flow, they don't have collateral. Those two items combined make it a tough deal, impossible deal to do. But if they haven't waited too long, they're still survivable. There's so many options. We put together a pre-flight and then I go to that book and then we decide three up to three opportunities to take these financial providers. The difference between most brokers is most brokers don't know what they're looking at, don't know what's available, and they just chunking it out to 12 or 20 different institutions hoping something sticks. Randy: We go to three 95% of the time, we'll get three term sheets. Those are going to be at the right rate that the customer deserves and they're going to be the right structure. And then we take the closing and after closing, we help them negotiate or before closing, we help them negotiate the documents. We help 'em negotiate their term sheet and we get them through the entire process. Because most CFOs, well, I'm not going to say most, it's surprising how many CFOs don't know what's possible, don't know why a conventional bank can't help them and don't know why this other opportunity that's going to be 2% higher or more if the company's risk level is higher, why they have to do that. Many times, David, we'll have someone say, no, we're not going to take any of those term sheets. They're just too high. That that just doesn't make any sense to us. The structure's too tough, the administration's too tough. Okay, well get to more banks, go to more conventional banks, see if you can get your loan and if you can't come back, and that's where it's an education. It's an education that these CFOs need to go through it and they need to understand it to instruct their owners why they're doing what they're doing. Dave: And so you only get paid if you're able to successfully, Randy: We only get paid at closing at the closing table. We'll either obtain a success fee if it goes to conventional bank because if it goes to conventional bank, that's where I'm going to take it. That's what the client deserves. And it's always going to be a lower rate. It's always going to be less administration. And if I can do that, that's a win. Even though our fees are a lot of times going to be reduced because it's going to conventional bank and for that banker to be competitive, they can't pay our full fee. But if it goes to a capital finance company, the capital finance company is who's going to pay us. So the other doesn't have to pay us. If it goes to a capital finance company Dave: And if it goes to a bank are they Randy: Say bank, we need a success fee agreement Dave: From the Randy: We're going to be able to invoice the bank and at closing they'll pay us. Dave: Okay. So my listeners like stories. So let's talk about some examples. And again, I'm sure the client name will be anonymous, but give us just some stories to give us a sense of the types of deals that you guys can do. Randy: David, I'm going to throw out one that you referred to me yourself in front of some of your clients Dave: And Randy: We had a nice little discussion and at a later date, one of your clients called me for help. Dave: Yep, I know who you're talking about. Randy: Well, what we ended up doing is finding three other banks that could have helped him. Conventional banks. The client was definitely bank worthy, but his existing bank wasn't really working with him as much as they should have. While the client wanted the release of his personal guarantee at the size level that he was at, I had to educate him and convince him that since you're making every decision, you rule the company, you can do whatever you want to do with the company. They're going to want your personal guarantee to make sure that you stay in long. Randy: But that on the side, he deserved everything. He was, everything else he was asking for. He deserved a lower rate. He deserved a re amortization. So when he received the three term sheets that we provided him from other conventional banks, he went back to his existing bank and said, this is what I've got. And he got everything he was asking for the release of his personal guarantee. Well, he offered to pay me. There was nothing I could, I didn't do much. I didn't do anything extraordinary. It didn't take long to realize who he should be working with. So no charge. He went back to his original bank, got what he wanted and everybody's happy. So that's point. Dave: I know he was very appreciative of that. And that really goes to show the power or the ability you have to help clients. I mean, you effectively made a couple phone calls, I'm simplifying it, but you reached Randy: Out, it wasn't much more. Dave: You reached out to a couple people. You told 'em, Hey, this is a bankable deal. Their current banks may be taking advantage of 'em or doesn't see how bankable they really are, and this may be an opportunity for you. They threw out some turn sheets that was a wake up call for his current bank and they went ahead and because of the leverage he had of the other term sheets, his current bank suddenly became more reasonable Randy: And for no cost at all. He didn't have to get any appraisals, he didn't have to go through the underwriting process. The existing bank helped him. And yeah, bank that he was at is known as one of the most conventional banks in Texas. That's where he deserved to be because he deserved it. Dave: And I know of which bank you speak. Okay, well that's helpful. What about a deal, an example of somebody who wasn't as bankable and yet to go to the capital finance markets. Do you have an example of a deal like that? Randy: Sure. And it's not just because, I mean the company was doing well, but they were a provider of construction mats. So in other words, utilities are being put in, it's really muddy. It's been rainy. They provide their huge construction mats, large yellow equipment can go over, can drive over and not get stuck in the mud. Those mats are not that usable as collateral because they wear out real quick. Sure, sure. So who's going to do that? So we found a few companies that were willing to advance on those mats directly. Their existing company wasn't, their existing bank was not going to give them any more availability. If this company is growing and once we found them additional availability, the company has been able to grow. It's been able to find additional equity if they want it because once it started growing, they exists, said, I'm happy you're uncle and hunting. So they didn't want to do everything that we expected them to do was to go out and acquire other companies. We could have helped 'em grow to 200, $300 million. Dave: I've got you. Randy: Leon owner Dave: Just wasn't interested in Randy: All of a sudden the pressure was off his shoulders. I've got a great family, everything's taken care of. We're good. Dave: Okay. Randy: Now the issue with that is during the next dry season, he's not going to have the working capital to continue what he's doing. Dave: Right, right. Randy: He'll come back. Dave: Yeah. Randy: We expect that he'll come back. Dave: Okay. Randy: Is that what you were looking for? Dave: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think you've kind of answered this question indirectly, but let me just ask you directly. So what is it that you enjoy the most about serving your clients in this capacity with your own gig? What do you enjoy the most about it? Randy: Well, even in my conventional bank days, I've always enjoyed ringing the bell and a deal gets done when we get a customer what he wants. And that is always endless. A struggle thing I can do. Dave: Yeah. Yeah. I knew that's what you were going to say. I know you John Flatow me, my wife. I mean we all relish serving customers in helping solve business problems for them. So that answer does not surprise me. Randy: Great. Dave: So that's coming from your perspective, what makes you different? What do your clients tell you about what makes you different? What are some feedback you've had from your clients? Randy: Well, we have an existing client right now that we're going to help him get purchase order financing Dave: And Randy: We're going to provide him an asset base loan and they purchase order facility on the side. And he found a conventional bank that agreed to do his deal that no other conventional bank would ever done at a fantastic rate, gave him 15 million instead of the 5 million he was asking for. Dave: Wow. Randy: Yeah. But he went there and he called me to tell me, Randy, I'm sorry I got bad news for you. I said, no, you found a great deal. As long as I can work with you. That is awesome. We'll get you the PO financing you take care of closing that deal at that bank and if they can't service it in the future, we'll take you back to through the banks that want to do it. Fact. That's great. That's still fine. So before he hung up, he said, Randy, you've really surprised me. I knew you wanted the sale of the asset based loan, but you're happy for me. You got the deal you wanted. I don't need to work. I do this, I enjoy it and it's I going to get the company the best thing I can get 'em. That kind of goes back to why did I start my own company, the stand my own company? Because conventional banks can't always do the common sense thing that the company means or we're doing it here. Dave: No, that is awesome. Yeah. I remember when you reached out to me and you started, I remembered thinking what a great fit, what great service you're offering that you're able to bring all of your expertise and because really what they're paying you for isn't your time, it's your knowledge is what they're really paying you for. They're not paying you for your time to reach out to 20 banks. A less the experienced person would do it is like the joke about the factory machinery that was down and they called in an engineer the story and he looked at it and he turned one screw, like half a turn and then gave him a $10,000 invoice and the owner was flabbergasted, why so much money? I need a detailed invoice. And his detailed invoice was turning the screw $1, knowing which screw to turn, $9,999. It's kind of the same way. Right? They're really paying you for your knowledge and your relationships, right? Randy: Correct. Absolutely. Dave: So what else, as we're kind of wrapping up here, what did I not ask you that you wish I had or I should have asked you? Randy: David, you're very good at what you do. You've asked me all the right questions. I've been able to tell you what we offer, why we're different, what we do. You've covered it. Okay, Dave: Well good. Well, I know you have helped many of my clients over the last 30 years in all of your different capacities, so I just wanted to thank you for that. You've always made me look good with my clients when I say, Hey, let me introduce you to Randy. Randy will take care of you. And that always makes me look good like this client, you had mentioned that you basically gave him leverage to renegotiate with his current bank. He'd been working on this problem for years and just was kind of hitting a wall because he sensed he could get a better deal, but he didn't really know how to go about that. He didn't really have the time and he didn't know if he just starts in the Yellow Pages. Well, I guess we don't have the yellow pages, but just starting at the eighties and just start calling all the banks. And then the problem is who you call at each bank. You can't just go to a retail branch and talk to the retail branch manager. So yes. Anyway, I appreciate over all these years you making me look like a star. Randy: You are one. David, I promise. Thank you for this opportunity. Dave: So I've got just one, two more questions and they're both fun. One is, if you could go back in time and give some advice to your 25 or 30-year-old self, what advice might you give to yourself Randy: And do what I'm doing now earlier? Dave: Yeah. That's the number one answer I get from my entrepreneur clients because almost, or my guest, almost all my guests had a similar path. They didn't just graduate from college and start their business. They didn't know, they didn't have any experience that always worked for somebody else for a while. Then they went on their own and they always have the same regret. They wish they'd been more courageous and done it sooner. So last one more. We're in Texas TexMex or barbecue? Randy: TexMex. Dave: Yeah. Randy: But worthy, I'll probably have both every week. Dave: Yeah. What's really good is if you find a place that's got great brisket tacos or brisket enchiladas, that kind of gives you a sense of both. So here's what a guest told me that I would have to agree with. He said it depends if it's average, I'm going to take the Tex-Mex. He goes, if I know that the option is too the barbecue place that's exceptional, and a Mexican restaurant that's exceptional, I take the barbecue because he said Tex-Mex has more capacity, more tolerance for average use, right? I mean, average Tex-Mex is still good, but average barbecue, not so much. Randy: I agree you 100%. Dave: That is great. Well, Randy, I really appreciate you taking time and I'm really excited to hear about what you're doing now and hopefully this episode will cost some people to reach out to you. We'll have your contact information in the show notes. So thanks again, Randy. Really appreciate it. Randy: Thank you David. Really appreciate it. Dave: There we have it. Another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation, go to ic disc show.com. That's IC dash D-I-S-C-S-H-O w.com. And we have additional information on the podcast archived episodes as well as a button to be a guest. So if you'd like to be a guest, go select that and fill out the information and we'd love to have you on the show. So it we'll be back next time with another episode of the IC Disc Show. Special Guest: Randy Gartz.

Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk This is brought to you by Insight Global. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world has the hustle and grit to deliver. www.InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader My guest: Dave Berke is a retired US Marine Corps Officer, TOPGUN Instructor, and now a leadership instructor and speaker with Echelon Front, where he serves as Chief Development Officer. As a F/A-18 pilot, he deployed twice from the USS John C Stennis in support of combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. He spent three years as an Instructor Pilot at TOPGUN where he served as the Training Officer, the senior staff pilot responsible for the conduct of the TOPGUN course. Notes: July 2001: Plans Don't Survive Contact - Dave's Top Gun graduation exercise as flight lead. Wingman yells, "Showtime one-one break right!" - an F-5 snuck into formation. Dave was staring at the radar instead of looking out, had to fall out of formation, and ended up at the back instead of leading from the front. Mission successful, but nothing like he planned. Dave: "The outcome was still really good... except it was nothing like I thought it was going to be." Lesson: You're planning for the success of the outcome, not how you're going to do it. The most important attribute in a leader is humility. To be effective, you must be able to listen, learn, be flexible, and admit you're wrong sometimes. One of the biggest issues they deal with when working with leaders is ego and/or the inability to be humble. As leaders, we need to be self-aware enough to realize when our ego is getting the best of us. And surrounding ourselves with people who will help us know when that is happening as well. Be Fluid with Plans, Deliberate with Outcomes - Be really fluid and loose with plans, but deliberate about aligning the team on outcomes. Dave grew up as a control freak, OCD planner. Dave: "In life, it's just not how life works... If you can align on the mission and outcome, and you are very open-minded that there are a lot of different ways to get there, you're far more likely to be successful." The military saying, "The enemy gets a vote." Ryan's quarterback coach after an interception: "He's on scholarship too, you know?" Process: How You Create It Matters Most - Process is important, but how you create it matters most. If you agree on the outcome, the conversation should be less about agreement, more about "When you talk about step one, what are you thinking? How does this lead to step two?" The process has to be organic. When you create it, you're more likely to maneuver around challenges. Book Dedication: Chris and Kat - Book dedicated to Corporal Chris Leon and his mother, Kat. Chris was a radio operator on Dave's 13-man Anglo team. June 20, 2006, Chris was killed by an enemy sniper in Iraq - first Anglican Marine killed there. Dave's son is Matthew Leon Burke - took Chris's last name. Chris's mom Kat is Aunt Kat to Dave's family. Dave: "I always say I really deep down wish I didn't know Kat, because that would've meant Chris came home and life just went on. But that's not what happened." Chris taught bravery. Kat taught strength. Top Gun Reality: It's About the Team - 1986 Top Gun most impactful movie on Dave's life at 14. But the movie depicts a lone wolf. Marine Corps teaches: Your contribution to the team matters most. A really good pilot who's self-centered will do more damage than a slightly less capable pilot who's a real team player. Dave: "If there's ever a team sport, it's going into combat... It's not about you. It's about the team." Trust: Action, Not Description - Echelon codifies relationships: Trust, respect, listening, influence. Trust is the cornerstone. Dave: "If you don't trust me, I could be good at so many things. If there is a trust gap, there's going to be a problem in the relationship and team." Trust is action you take.  Ego: The Universal Challenge - When Echelon works with companies, challenges are almost always connected to ego. Dave: "Our egos tend to wreak havoc at each level of organization." From birth, the ego drives us down the wrong path. When debating plans, ego says, "You're right, he's wrong." Building good leadership is managing egos. Dave: "Humility is the most important attribute in a leader. All the attributes, humility is number one, and we don't waffle on that." Humility Enables Everything Else - Dave worked with the biggest, toughest SEALs. Attribute most critical to success: humility. Ability to listen, learn, be flexible, change, admit you're wrong, and go with someone else's plan. It even affects fitness. Humility touches everything. Doesn't diminish other attributes, but allows you to strengthen them.  Teaching Humility: Subordinate Your Ego - You can't tell someone with a big ego to be humble. Dave: "The biggest challenge with someone else's ego is not their ego. It's your ego's response to it." Most counterintuitive thing: If you clash with Ryan, Dave has to subordinate his ego to Ryan's. Lower your ego: "Hey Ryan, I've been pushing back hard, I realize I'm not listening." Natural reaction: Ryan's ego starts to drop. Over time, collaborate more. You connect success to the ability to control the ego. Dave: "Humility is the measurement of how much control you have over your ego." What you give is usually what you get. It's reciprocal. Care About Team More Than Yourself - When your people see you working hard to clear paths or block an egomaniac boss, they'll run through walls for you. Outcome of a good relationship: You care about the team, the team cares about you. That selfless act shows you care about them more than yourself. Dave: "That's how you show that you care about them more than yourself, and that's what a leader's job is, to care about the team more than you care about yourself. That's parenting, that's marriage." Extreme Ownership - Book Extreme Ownership changed Dave's understanding. When you take ownership, take ownership of everything. Caveat: Not things you literally don't control. But you have ownership over everything, even just how you react. After Chris was killed, Dave said, "That's war, nothing we can do." Problem: When he embraced it wasn't his responsibility, it meant he didn't have as much to change. Should have asked: "What is everything we can do to make sure this doesn't happen again?" The tendency is to undershoot ownership. Try to take it to the extreme. If you can take ownership of everything you can control, you get more influence over the outcome. Detachment: A Superpower - Dave: "Detachment is a superpower" - (1) almost nobody can do it, and (2) if you can, it's massively influential. Detachment is being in control of emotions. When overwhelmed with priorities and pressures, you tend to get emotional. When you react emotionally, you make bad decisions. Learn the skill of detaching - not to be devoid of emotion (we're human), but don't let emotions dictate. Get Away from Problems to See What's Causing It - When a problem occurs at work, you tend to focus on it, go into it. It seems good but is often wrong. You should get away from it, detach. Getting away lets you look around and see what's really causing it. Military example: The enemy is shooting at you; the tendency is to focus on that. Usually bad because they're hoping you do - then they send a flanking maneuver. If you detach, step back, you'll see the flanking maneuver coming. Be able to see the future - that's the superpower.  Know Your Red Flags - Intervene Early - You have to understand where you are escalating your emotions. Know your personal red flags. Most people don't go zero to 100. Long day, flight delayed, bad meeting - little things tick up, so zero is actually 4 or 5, which means dirty dishes put you to 7. When Dave gets frustrated, traps tighten up. Some people's nose turns red. If you're at level 8 and someone says, "calm down," it makes it worse. But if at level 1 or 2 and you intervene, you're in control. What an adult does: "I'm an emotional guy, but I have awareness of where I am. If I'm a 4, I gotta intervene then." If at level 10, detaching is not gonna happen. That's the difference between kids and adults. Dave: "You are much more likely to have a hard time controlling your emotions, ironically, with people you care about the most." Quotes: "You're planning for the success of the outcome, not how you're going to go about doing that, because things get in the way."  "Humility is the most important attribute in a leader. All the attributes. Humility is number one, and we don't waffle on that."  "The biggest challenge with someone else's ego is not their ego. It's your ego's response to it."  "Detachment is a superpower."  "You are much more likely to have a hard time controlling your emotions, ironically, with people you care about the most." 01:16 Introducing Dave Burke 02:21 Dave Burke's Top Gun Experience 05:23 Lessons Learned from Military to Everyday Life 07:56 The Importance of Flexibility in Leadership 13:07 The Need to Lead: Dedication and Personal Stories 16:58 The Realities of Teamwork in Combat and Business 21:03 Building Trust and Relationships in Teams 26:04 The Role of Humility in Effective Leadership 31:03 Understanding Ego and Humility 31:50 Subordinating Your Ego 33:38 Challenges of Teaching Humility 34:07 Personal Experiences with Ego 39:20 The Power of Ownership 42:57 Detachment as a Superpower 52:58 Advice for Young Leaders 57:26 Conclusion and Key Takeaways  

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Ronak Shah to discuss his transition from a corporate career at Intel to entering the scrap metal business, to founding a successful scrap metal business in New Caney, Texas. We talk about the motivation behind his career shift and the mentors who guided him along the way. Ronak opens up about the challenges he faced while transitioning from a large corporate environment to a smaller, more hands-on business. We also explore Ronak's decision to sell his business and the unexpected opportunities that arose from that choice. He reflects on the experiences gained throughout his career, emphasizing the importance of taking calculated risks and adapting to change. His story offers insights into the value of connecting past experiences to current ventures, even when the path isn't always straightforward. Finally, we discuss navigating today's fast-paced digital world and the importance of maintaining a low profile on social media. Ronak's journey highlights the balance between professional growth and personal fulfillment, making this episode a thoughtful exploration of entrepreneurship and resilience.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore Ronak's remarkable transition from a corporate role at Intel to establishing a successful scrap industry business in New Caney, Texas, emphasizing his desire for more tangible work and the influence of key mentors. The episode delves into Ronak's career progression at Schnitzer Steel and Alter Trading, where he gained critical insights in non-ferrous recovery and learned the importance of agile, smaller teams in driving technological advancements. Through journaling and introspection, Ronak clarifies his professional desires, leading to the creation of Levitated Metal and reflecting on personal challenges, including his late wife's battle with cancer. We discuss the financial strategies Ronak utilized in his entrepreneurial ventures, such as leveraging IC-DISC tax advantages and aligning financial decisions with personal values. The conversation highlights Ronak's leadership insights, his decision to pursue a smaller business for personal fulfillment, and the impact of selling his business on both his professional and personal life. Ronak shares reflections on his entrepreneurial journey, touching on the lessons learned from his career, the importance of taking risks, and the role of hindsight in connecting the dots of his experiences. The episode concludes with a discussion on navigating the complexities of the modern digital landscape and the importance of maintaining a low profile in a rapidly changing social media environment.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Ronak Shah (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronakshahpdx/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Levitated Metals Ronak ShahAbout Ronak TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi Ronak, how are you today? Roank: Good David, Nice to see you again. Dave: Likewise, and where are you calling into from? Where are you in the world at the moment? Roank: I'm at my factory in New Caney, Texas, just a little bit northeast of Houston Great. Dave: Now are you a native Houstonian. Roank: I'm not, so I moved out here in 2019 to build this factory and start this business. I think I've been to Houston once in the prior year to visit for the first time and never before, other than perhaps through the airport. So, I didn't know a lot about Houston. I'm not saying that I know a lot about Houston now, but it's been a great place to build a business. It's been a fine place for my kids to grow up. Dave: It's been good it's been a fine place for my kids to grow up. It's still good. Yeah, it's. Uh, it's kind of a, it's kind of a hidden gem in a lot of ways. Uh, you know houston is, it's got a lot going for it that if your only experience is just driving through town or going through the airport, you know, I mean you hear traffic, humidity, heat, urbanl and you're just kind of like, you know, yeah, it doesn't sound like my kind of place. Roank: Yeah, well, it would be a lot more believable if you did not have a Breckenridge background behind you. Dave: True, yeah, that is the Breckenridge background for sure. So where did you grow up then, if you didn't grow up in Houston? Roank: I grew up in upstate New York so my dad was one of the many immigrants that came over in the late 60s, early 70s. They were looking for people with medical training and background. So he came over from India, lived in New York. I was born in New York City but very soon after grew up in the middle of the Finger Lakes. We moved to Syracuse when I was in middle school and then I went to Boston for undergraduate and I bounced kind of between Boston and London and back to Boston, then to Portland, oregon, which is where I came into the scrap industry and lived for some time in St Louis. I lived there for about nine years and from St Louis to here. Dave: Okay. So what made you get into the scrap business if you didn't have a family history in it? Roank: Yeah, it was just very random, my interest in the scrap industry. I think, the truth of the answer is probably the more interesting one. So after mba I was working, I was an operations guy and I was working at intel corporation in portland, near portland oregon, and loved being in portland. It's a fine place to live. But intel was, I mean, a huge company, right, 80 000 people, and just like the process of making something that was about this big, the the size of the core diet, multiprocessor, microprocessor this wasn't sufficiently interesting to me and I was too far from it, as well as my chain organization. Yeah. It didn't feel tangible enough, and so that was one part of it. But then the other part of it as well was you know I was there as a worker bee, you know, in a reasonably senior job for someone of my age, but then, you know, in a reasonably senior job for someone of my age, but then you know intel was having difficulty. So they bring in bane and company to kind of work on strategy or whatever and so two of the guys that I went to school with that, I knew well, were like literally working literally seven layers in the organization above me, and I'm like what? and so I just hit that, I tapped out, I extracted, I was like this is just some horse crap. I, this isn't the place for me. I need to go somewhere where I'm, you know, in a, in a smaller pod, where I can really touch and feel a thing. And so I just started throwing resumes out and wound up at Schnitzer Steel. Now really, yeah, and oh really. Yeah, and it was great. It was a time of transition for Schnitzer. I don't know if it was a great transition time for Schnitzer. They were transitioning from an older style scrap company to a more professional slash corporate company of the style that it is today. So they had parts of the parts of their business were both things and for sure I liked the old thing a lot and just tons of fun being in places like Boston and Portland scrapyard when they were building big mega shredders and new factories and driving the continuous improvement process there and trying to get metrics around things. It was really a good time. I enjoyed a lot of it. I came to Alter Trading in 2010 and that was wonderful right, I owe so much of my career everything I learned everything to the team at Alter, to Jay Rabinovitz and Rob and Michael Goldstein. I learned a lot there. I did a lot of really fun stuff for them that helped transform the company into the highly successful privately owned scrap company it is today. Dave: Like on the technology side, correct yeah. Roank: So I built a few factories, non-ferrous recovery plants to process not steel non-ferrous portions of the shredder and extract more metals out of stuff that would otherwise have gone to the landfill. And it was you know, exciting to do that, and it wasn't just building the factories but really growing out the entirety of the division that became, you know, a kind of center of excellence around that function, and it's an area that you know Alter remains very strong in today. Dave: Okay, well, I am excited to get into the next part of your story. So you're living in St Louis, working at Alter, being involved in some cool stuff and forward thinking technology. So how did from there? How do you end up starting a company in New Caney, texas? Roank: Yeah, so it's no reason not to be as open and honest about it as possible. So Alter was amazing. For the first six or seven years I was there, the job was like a nine and a half out of 10. I remember I was in New York going to make this time up sometime in 2013 or something like that. I've been there for three years and the Powerball was like some huge number, like a billion dollars, and so me and some buddies that were in finance, we all bought Powerball tickets and we talked about what we would do if we won the money, and I remember I determined to say I don't know if I would necessarily quit my job, right, like I really love what I do. I still think about that today. Dave: Did any of them have the same thought? Roank: No, they thought I was just completely crazy and they weren't necessarily wrong. I think I think perhaps again I loved it, but the point of it is I really enjoyed it. It was fulfilling, I had impact, things were changing. All of that when I struggled is as that phase of what Alter needed ended and I needed to move and assist alter with other things, primarily helping them grow a tier of management that had come from the art management level into being the next business leaders of the company. Just, you know, it's kind of standard transition planning type stuff and succession planning. I struggled with doing that successfully, a role that perhaps would have been viable or successful or satisfactory for me to do had it occurred during a standard line management. You know, hierarchical management structure was hard for me to find value in fulfillment, in and I would say success in doing. Yeah, as a matrix manager, you know, as a, as a guide, as a internal consultant. I just didn't love it. I hate to put it that way. I just sure, sure and at the same time, alter was going through a certain amount of a a ton of growth, right, a lot of growth that I participated in through acquisition and internal growth as well disbanded organic growth. But it was going through a lot of growth and so the company that felt small and familial at 40 yards suddenly felt just large and 70 for me. Dave: Too much like it felt too much like Intel. Roank: Nowhere near that level. There's nothing like that. It remains a really effective, well-directed company today. But, it felt different for me and I also realized that I wasn't good at that bigger company stuff. You know, my way of thinking about things didn't scale successfully to that level. I would not be the right guy at that level and this is an unfortunate thing to say. But I chose to. I did not want to change. You know, I thought about so. My boss for many years there was Jay Rabinowitz, who was, until he retired recently, the CEO of Alter Trade. He was fascinating. His ability to grow into the mindset required, the management rank that he was in at the time, or growing into, was phenomenal. And so a guy that if you only knew him 30 years ago was a rough and tumble scrap guy was and you've seen him on podcasts and things like that. It became and presents fully as and fills the shoes of a methodical, thoughtful, mature and a CEO who does a great job of leading A 1,200, 1,500 person organization. You would have never thought that if you only knew him 25 years ago perhaps, but his ability to grow was really phenomenal. For, by choice or by capability or whatever it was, I did not have or want that and so I wanted something dramatically smaller. Dave: Okay. Roank: And so I spent a bunch of time not just thinking about it but literally journaling about it. Because when you just think about these type of problems in your mind like hey, what do I want to do professionally? Yeah, you can just ping pong in your brain. And what I found helped me through the process was writing it down. And if you remember, back in high school, your English teacher would tell you to you know write a draft of the story, or an outline, and then a draft and then the final essay. I mean, I don't know about you, but I would never do any of that crap. But I did this time and I found that, like the first draft was, you know, just vomit on a page of orally thought out concepts and beliefs. And so I wrote it again and it was clear. And I wrote it again, it was clear. It helped me really understand what I liked and didn't like and what I wanted and didn't want from the next phase. And it was a time when, you know, my kids were just about to graduate middle school. If I was ever going to leave St Louis, this was the time to do it. It was not going to be easy. It was not easy for them to leave St Louis, but that's when. That's how I made that choice. I was uncertain as to what I would do. Right, I was out there both looking at shredder yards to buy as well as businesses. To start, I looked at a wire chopping plant. I ultimately built a heavy media plant. I did look at and made successful offers on a couple of different shredders, but none of that actually panned out and in the end I raised a bunch of money, moved out to Houston, built this thing. Dave: That is a great story and your kids ended up adjusting okay to, because I believe you live in one of the really nice master plan communities around Houston. Roank: Yeah, and they've adjusted well. I think my son is glad that we moved down here. My daughter is a little bit on the fence, but she was younger when we moved. Both my wife my late wife and I in many ways would have probably preferred where we lived in. Dave: St Louis, it was a small town in Kirkwood. Roank: You're familiar with it, but here it's been great. The Woodlands is a, you know, magical little bubble of a place to live. It's got everything you need. It's 25 minutes to the factory. All of it has been, from that perspective, just fine. When my wife got cancer, we were right here at MD Anderson. You know a lot of that stuff worked out. Dave: That is great. So tell me what your business premise was for Levitated Metal. So maybe give just a little background. What does the company do? Roank: Sure, so we're a heavy media flotation platform. What we do is we buy a thing called Sorba and we make aluminum Twitch. But stepping back from that to people that don't know what any of those words mean, our suppliers are the largest scrap metal processors in the region. Right, the states who will buy something like an old 2008 ford 500 sedan that's at the end of its life, yeah, shred it into fist size and smaller pieces, extract all the steel out with a magnet and then extract all the other metals like aluminum from the engine, copper, brass zinc, die, cast through other technologies. That aluminum, copper, brass zinc all is mixed up together in little pieces in a giant pile and that product is called a made up word Zorba by the industry. They make lots of it inside of houston. probably 15 million pounds to 18 million pounds of it is made every month right I buy that it's useless the way it is because you can't melt it, because it's got too many different types of metals in it and it doesn't make a useful alloy. But if you can get the aluminum out, that aluminum is super valuable because that aluminum you know used to be the engine block of a old car. It's a pretty tight chemistry match to the alloy required for the engine block of a ford f-150 a 2005. So through a density flotation process using water and ferrosilicon, we can change the density of that water so we can actually float the aluminum out. Dave: Hence the name levitated. Roank: Yeah, it's not a novel technology. I buy the equipment from some dude in Italy. There are well over 100 of these kind of plants in the world, maybe a little less than a dozen when levitators started up in the united states and a very what it sounds like a simple process is a royal pain in the rear. That actually managed because it's a very analog system with all sorts of weird chemistry and other things involved and a challenging plant to rot. But you know, we do a pretty decent job of it. Dave: Now, why did you pick New Caney, texas? I've been to St Louis, in fact, I was just there last month. They appear to have plenty of land around that place, you know, especially across the river in uh, is that illinois? That's just east so why? Didn't you just buy some land and do it up there? Roank: so where these plants, where the competitive plants exist, are relatively close to where their consumers, the aluminum smelters that would buy the recycled aluminum, are, and that's generally already in that area. So there are plenty of plants in that area. Dave: Okay. Roank: Down here in Houston. What was the case when I chose to move down here it became very quickly not the case, because two other people also built plants was that there was a large market in Mexico that did not have access to this type of material because there were no media plants in Texas or along the Mexican border. And aluminum manufacture in Mexico was growing incredibly well, much like the rest of their economy, and so what I saw was a consumer need right mexican heavy media plants, a set of suppliers in the texas area that did not have a domestic buyer for their zorba and so good supplier footprint and, at the time, a relative lack of competition. But I didn't realize. So, like two months after the financial raise was done and everything like that was, there were in fact, two more plants that were in the process of being built. They both started, you know, six to 12 months after mine did not so far away. There's one up near dallas, there's one up in arkansas so it became a little bit more competitive, though in truth that has not really changed the calculus on anything in a great way. It hasn't really improved the deal too much. Dave: Okay, and it was you started with, just a green field, right? Roank: Yeah, it was some trees and dirt and 10 acres. It was some trees and dirt and 10 acres and I started with dirt work and stormwater and concrete and buildings and equipment and built the whole thing. Dave: What year did you? Roank: start COVID 2020. Oh, it was the heck of a time. Dave: That was the construction was during COVID yeah. And when did you open? Roank: Then we started processing. At the end of December we shipped our first 2020 and we started shipping material in full January 2021. Dave: Oh wow, that really was in the midst of COVID. It was Most of it wasn't? Roank: that big a deal. There was some delay in equipment delivery because it came from Italy, and so if anybody had a rougher time COVID wise, it was Italy. So it came from Italy, and so if anybody had a rougher time COVID-wise, it was Italy. So it came from Italy but that might have only cost us a couple months. What was really frustrating and challenging and ultimately we were able to get through it was simply the difficulty of bringing process experts from Europe to the US during the COVID timeline. You know, like I can't tell you how many voicemails I left at the US embassy in Milan to sorry the US consulate in Milan to try to, you know, accelerate the review of the visa for the texts to come in from Italy, but I can tell you how many times somebody probably listened to it with zero, so just a royal pain in the rear. You know, just because the pain in the rear to get that all done, it got done. But those were challenging times. Dave: So started January of 2021 and, uh, at the time, had you given any thought to how long you might want to, that you and your investor group might want to run the business or own the business? Did you have any thought when you started it about what I honestly thought? I? Roank: would run it and own it for like nearly 10, 15 years years and grow it over time and continue to be in the space, et cetera, et cetera. It was meant to be a longer term cashflow, not one necessarily built on an exit strategy of selling at some point in the future. That was the original intent. Dave: How did that-year plan end up working out for you? Roank: Well, it turned out to be much shorter than that. So, as it turned out, in 2023, we had an unsolicited offer from Murfrees Industries to purchase the business assets. Dave: Wow, just two years later. Roank: Yeah, two years of operation later. Yeah, and for a number of reasons, it was the right choice for me and my investors to do the sale and it's been absolutely phenomenally good, I think, for both sides. The transaction itself, you know, from my perspective, great because you know it was an accelerated exit, but an exit nevertheless, and it still gives me the opportunity to continue to do the same job in the same office every day that I really enjoy doing that. I find great fulfillment and mental stimulation and sense of purpose in without the undeniable and underestimated stress of being a business owner. Dave: Yeah. Roank: So that's been absolutely great. It occurred at a time when my wife was battling cancer and took a lot of stress off. Taking that business stress off the table Sure Just made it easier to get through that entire process. Yeah, and it's just been a good. I think it's been fun for everybody. You know Adam and Michael Mervis were the you know fourth generation. Perhaps Adam and Michael Mervis we're the fourth generation perhaps owners of Mervis Industries enjoy having the levitated team in their company. We enjoy being part of it. Both of us have to do better together. It's been really just great. Dave: That is awesome, because not all transactions work out that well. Roank: Yeah, I'm sure there's some number out there that I would have sold the company at, knowing full well that I would not have wanted to work there afterwards. I'm sure there is, but I'm glad I didn't have to. Dave: Because you were I'm guessing you were the. Were you a minority shareholder? Did your? I was a minority shareholder. Roank: Oh, you were the majority, okay. Dave: So it was ultimately your call Correct and your but the the deal clicked, checked all the boxes and and were your investors disappointed that they were going to lose their cash flowing business. Roank: No, they were very pleased with the cash they got all up front. They were fine. That is great. Coincidentally, I did this math when we were doing the sale. I think that the net result of it was the same. Dave: IRR or plus or minus one within 1% of the IRR. Roank: That was in the financial presentation for the business itself. Really, yeah, very unexpected. Yeah, again, nothing more than a coincidence yeah what do you, what do you enjoy most? enjoy the most about the business is building and growing things. What I have realized is that is not sufficient to be a great leader. Right, there's building and growing things. A great leader right, there's building and growing things. But there's also all the other things that a leader should gain and find value in a business that I'm just not personally built to enjoy nearly as much. Right, I enjoy growing the skillset for the people that work for me. I enjoy seeing them be successful, but I don't think I enjoy it as much as I really should, or that a leader really should. In many ways, I think what I've discovered is I almost enjoy being an individual contributor more than. I enjoy being a leader and in in many ways, that's why I enjoy being at such a small company. Right, yeah, here the leadership I have to do is very direct. It's in the office, with people that are no more than 15 feet away from me right now. It's a very old style of working. You, you know, I have one remote employee and thank God she is very self-directed and capable and intelligent and proactive about reaching out to me, because otherwise she would be really disappointed and I would suck at that job. And so when we talk about you know what do we like about the job? I enjoy the improving of things. I enjoy the new thing to be done. That is not as much of it's not that much of running a business as you would want it to be. Sure, it's not like about a small business, though are just the variety of stuff I get to do I wear slightly fewer hats now than I did before the acquisition, but I was the CFO. I was, unfortunately, the lead IT guy, even though portions of these functions were outsourced as well. I sold all the metals. Having never sold a pound of metal in my life prior to levitated metals, I sold all the amount and then I was the president. I was the lead on any plant improvement projects of great size that we had again support throughout the organization on all these little pieces. But that's a lot of little hats to wear okay, okay. That a bigger company would have a head underneath every one of those hats. Sure, so I enjoy being able to do the breadth of those activities. I think it's rare that people can do the breadth of those activities. You and I talk about ICDIS stuff all the time and I would wager at a level that maybe less than five company owners that you interact with are able to discuss the situation. Is that probably correct, or am I? I think it's probably less than three yeah. Dave: And I can't think of who the other two are, so you might be in a class of your own. Roank: Yeah, I enjoy that thing right when I think about things that I would have been in a different life. Perhaps tax accountant could be one of those. But man, this is a very different life than tax accountant. Dave: Yeah for sure I think you made the right call. Well, as we're kind of rounding the home stretch, I've just got a few more questions. One is when you were leaving Intel, if you had a time machine, or maybe right after you left Intel and you had a time machine that you could go back and have a conversation with the younger Ronak 20 years ago, what might you have told yourself? What advice might you have had? Roank: or wisdom that you might've wanted to share. I don't think I would've shared anything. Dave: No, wouldn't want to, but I would've wanted that. Roank: With the exception my wife's death, there is not a single thing that I would have changed that is a you're. Dave: I asked that question on my guest and you're probably the only one who's ever answered it that way. Roank: So I would say, yeah, what type of things do people say? Oh, you know the number one, because I'm not just saying that because I don't want to watch other podcasts, I just yeah, well, no, I can give give you the rundown. Dave: The most common answer is they wish they would have taken a risk sooner. They wish they would have started their company sooner. They wish they'd been more willing to take a chance. Now, granted, many of my guests are self-made first-generation entrepreneurs like you know, are, you know, self-made first generation entrepreneurs like you are meaning? You know they formed the company, but some of them may have worked at other companies. In hindsight they realize, oh, I should have done this five years sooner, you know it. Just, it would have only been better if I'd done it five years. That's kind of. The most common answer is just, they wish they'd played it less safe. You know, they wish they'd taken, you know, more risks in college. They wish they. That's kind of the most. But that one is consistent with what most people say near the end of their life they don't regret the things they did, they regret the things they didn't do. So that tends to be the answer. But that, to me, is a really good. That's a really good answer for somebody who's pretty content with where their life is. Roank: Yeah, other than you know your wife, obviously, and I see what everybody else describes, but I feel that everything I did, I was learning something that became foundationally valuable. Dave: Yeah. Roank: You know there was a period of time I got laid off from Schnitzer in early 2009. And I didn't start up at Alter Trading until, you know, about a year later. But I did some consulting in the middle for a wonderful company, Steel Pacific Recycling in Vancouver Island, Victoria, British Columbia, and I was there for three months and it was a magical time because we were there in the wintertime. The whole family moved up. My kids were very young. We had an apartment right in Victoria. I rode a bicycle to work to the scrapyard. But I did a bunch of really interesting financial cost accounting structure set up that helped them understand their business better and those were super useful skills when I had to do a chart of accounts setup for levitated metals. We were able to slice and dice our financials. You know extremely well and I don't know if I would have used an erp system nearly as well as I do here had I not had all those little formative experience things in the end I think for me at least. I don't feel like I had a lot of wasted years throughout any of that time I learned steve jobs, as you say. Dave: Steve jobs has the saying that you can only connect the dots when you look backwards, that at the time you can't. It's not like you had some grand plan, I'm guessing you know when you left intel. It just you know. Because steve talks about. He took this calligraphy class that he audited in college and, uh, you know, and that influenced everything at apple design and fonts and and other stuff that it only makes sense looking back so that's. Roank: That's interesting. Yeah, I can. I can see that, and it is hard to connect the dots until yeah until you look back so. Dave: So here's kind of a fun one. I think you've been a like me, you're a. Well, I consider myself a naturalized texan. My wife's a native texan, so, uh, you know, if you you know. So you're also a non-native texan, but I think you've been here long enough for this question. Tex-mex or barbecue. Roank: Barbecue makes me fall asleep. I'm not saying Tex-Mex, I've always loved Tex-Mex. So yeah, we've got some great barbecue. Actually, right near the plant Rusty Buckle is some great barbecue. Near my house is Corkscrew, which just got a Michelin star, which. Dave: Oh nice. Roank: Yeah, which I still struggle to understand how that all plays out. But Texas I guess you get a star. But I love me some Lupe Torquillo yeah yeah, I am with you. Dave: Well, is there anything I didn't ask you or we didn't talk about that you wish we had or we should have? Roank: No, but I'll do you a favor and I'll plug a little bit the IC disc. I know that's not the goal of this podcast, but it is why we know each other. Yeah, so I'll tell this story if I may. Yeah, absolutely, the IC disc and levitated metals. Yeah absolutely, yeah, absolutely, disc and levitated metals. So I called you on my birthday, three months before I, a little bit before I sold the company, and I had talked to you many times previous to that about setting up an icy disc. We, like many scrap companies, are well suited to the icyDIS because the profile of our sales are high margin exports and lower margin domestic sales, and the value of, as a pass-through entity, being able to translate ordinary income into dividend income, has great benefits to the investors of a company. I think there's probably some advantages, even if you're a C-corp, but you can detail that kind of At most. I think there's probably some advantages, even if you're a C-corp, but you can detail that kind of stuff out. I don't really know. Dave: Sure. What was? Roank: interesting when we talked about it is I was in the process of selling the company and when you sell a company that's done a bunch of bonus depreciation because it built a big factory, there's always depreciation recapture that shows up as ordinary income at the time of the sale and so whatever normal ordinary income there would have been that year it was going to be much, much higher because we would have clawed back a ton of depreciation. I put a recapture on depreciation. It's ordinary income. We, like many scrap companies again, have an IC discable kind of amount of headroom of income translation from ordinary income to dividend income Well in excess of the ordinary income we normally make in any particular year, and so, like most scrap companies, there should be no reason to pay ordinary income tax. Dave: Right. Roank: Again, most scrap companies that are Nazi corpse or whatever. But in the year of the sale, all that extra headroom suddenly became valuable because I was going to have this abnormal ordinary income from the depreciation recapture, and so what would have been X million dollars of ordinary income that would have turned to dividend income wound up being something like 2.5, x, yeah, all of which I was able to use because I had so much ordinary income, yeah. And your shareholders as well. Yes, absolutely yes, I and my shareholders. And that was phenomenal. And then on top of it, I think I got to. The ICDIS lets you defer some of that dividend income into the following year. So just sat there in our bank accounts making 5% or whatever we chose to do with that money for another year more than a year, excuse me. Just truly phenomenal. The impact of the ICDIS in my space. Not an easy thing to kind of think through. You and I were just spitballing stuff. We popped it up as an option. You had to go back and think about it, but it looks like it works. And I don't know if you have done it before. Dave: No, yeah, it was just such a unique fact and it was mostly because of how new the business was. Right, if the business had been open for 10 years, we would have started the IC desk probably in year four or five it was coming, and then you would have been using it and then you would have had that transaction, the depreciation recapture, and it would have given you a bigger benefit. It would have happened anyway. It was just your circumstances were so unique is how it all fell out, and I doubt we'll ever see that. That circumstances, because it's so rare to start a business and sell it so quickly, you know I think the takeaway of it is the one. Roank: So one of the takeaways I have from this is I should have started the ICS earlier, because of the bonus depreciation as a startup of the company and the complete depreciation of the entire factory. In the first year, I and investors had a ton of NOL and net operating losses that were just going to take a while to turn into a cumulative net gain and before that happened we sold the company. I was planning on doing an IC disc in 2024, I think was my expected timeline, which is when we would have clicked over to a game and then suddenly there would have been income that I wanted to translate over into dividend income. But I really should have just done it before into dividend income but I really should have just done it before. Dave: So the question I should have asked you was if you could go back in time two years and do anything different. Give any advice to yourself. What would it have been? I mean, it's a joke, right? You would have said start the ICDISC sooner. Roank: The real advice I would have given would have been understand how your NOLs work so that you can do a donor advice fund for the ordinary income you thought you were going to. But outside of that, in truth it's a minor esoteric thing that doesn't really matter. Dave: And so, since you brought it up I rarely talk about this. Since you brought it up, just a couple quick questions. One, because the cpa firm you use actually has some icdisk expertise and you know you could have used them. So do you recall what aspect of our I remind you. Roank: Yeah, because you're, I see this guy. Okay, and the thing that I was talking about felt esoteric enough that I didn't want to click just on a cheap bastard. I didn't want to click over, you know. CPA for billable hours while they tried to figure it out and roll me in a show or something like that. That's not how I want to play now, but the truth is I just needed something done quick and fast because every day that I waited to do the icy disc was another day of revenues that I couldn't utilize. And the second reason is, you know there's a time there's time it takes to create an icy disc and set it up and all that kind of stuff. You have that down to a science and had a method to kind of quickly get me rolling on it. While you and I both know you made a bunch of money on that transaction for a couple of years of work on it, it was completely worth it to me and a very satisfying business and personal relationship that tested both of our intellectual capabilities to kind of put together and work on. I enjoyed doing it right, like when we talk about what we enjoy and work. Dave: Yeah, that was a fun thing it was, yeah, no, it was for me too, because so yeah, so few of my clients, you know, know, have that much interest, you know, getting into the weeds there, and it caused me to think of some things I hadn't thought about in this. And again, since you brought it up, in the experience, you know, the team was the responsiveness Good, I mean, was the? Is the experience been positive? Oh yeah, it's been great, yeah what about coordinating with your CPA firm, because sometimes a CPA firm who has an ICDIS practice will sometimes say things like yeah, but it'll be more seamless if it's all under one umbrella right. Umbrella right, I mean, it's the. Did you get the sense that? That it created a lot of of extra work by the cpa firm, or that balls got dropped because you didn't have one entity doing it all? Roank: I don't think I got that sense, because the cpa firm is made up of multiple people too. That, oh, it's a good point, right? I mean, it's not like the ICDISC person is the CPA that you're working with, right? Dave: You know, I hadn't thought about that, and you're right, and there's some level of communication that is required regardless. Roank: Yeah, and that. Dave: IC-DISC practice, if I recall, for that particular firm. I think it's out of a different office. Roank: Anyway, I don't think, even if they were next to each other right which are of course not next to each other because they all work remote Even if they were next to each other, still two people having to talk, and so there's still coordination that has to happen, and you know what you're talking about. In the end. There is enough esoterica on optimizing the ICDISC usage, that especially trying to maximize the ICDISC capability that I don't think others really understand and not all of them need to understand it. But what I mean by that is for many companies they can just use the stupid simple approach for doing ICDISC and it'll still let them translate all the income they have right. In my particular case, it was important to look at the transaction by transaction optimization capability of the ICDISC in order to fully utilize and maximize the amount of income I could translate to dividend income. I use shared logic as my ERP system. There is literally an ICDISC button that creates the report that you care about. Dave: Right, and so that's one of the benefits of not to interrupt you, but people ask me because, like my, our IC disc business is almost impossible to sell. In fact your CPA firm even talked to me a few years ago about buying the ICDIS practice. The problem is we're not very sellable. We have a huge, we have a concentration risk because it's all tied to one part of the tax code. So they wanted to discount that, or they would have wanted if the conversation on that far. And the second problem is I'm a craftsman, I have the primary relationship with all of the clients. So they would have made me stay around for three or five years and I'm like you know and it would have been tied to some kind of an earn out because they're going to say well, what if the IC just goes away next year? You know we want you to basically keep some of that risk. So I don't know what got me off on this tangent of that risk. Roank: So I don't know what got me off on this tangent. I hear you, and I've thought about that question on your behalf as well, because from my perspective I think your job is kind of interesting and fun. Right, you get to visit a lot of different scrap yards, talk to a bunch of different scrap dudes about a thing you're very knowledgeable about that you know really could trans dramatically improve their financial position, and yet it's still a tough sell. Right, it should be like selling. You know it's not like selling ice cream to eskimos, and yet sometimes it probably feels that way. It is that way, yeah, yeah, and also the question of how to. Because you have a couple of people, I think that work for you, right, at least? Dave: one, yeah, yeah, there's a whole team, yeah. Roank: And so, yes, if IC-DISC went away, it would be I don't know what else you guys do, but pretty close to the end of the company and that's a rough gig. And you know, the low-grade communist in me certainly is shocked, shocked by all the awesome and incredible tax code optimization tools that exist for business owners tools that exist for business owners. Dave: I mean between the IC-DISC, new market tax credits opportunity zones right Bonus appreciation just it's Cost segregation, research-. Roank: Absolutely phenomenal, right, I am now a W2 employee like a putz, you know it's just phenomenal. But if that went away then, yeah, this does die. It's a really difficult thing to try to sell, right. It's the type of thing that, I don't know, if you can't keep some level of skin in the game or risk on it. It feels like the type of thing that if you have the right person in the organization that could be the face, should be kind of employee acquired in some capacity. Dave: Well, and that opportunity exists Some of my partners, I mean I have a standing offer to basically sell my part of the business and in many ways are you familiar with the inside. Roank: I am the. Dave: There's a deep dive of tax yeah, yeah, the structure for us I've already looked at it just doesn't. It doesn't really, it's not not the right fit, but yeah, I thought this thing. You know the funny thing about the disc it's been around since 1972, but it's been quote going, going away since 1973. So I've been doing this 20 years, and I thought I might have five years before this went away or there was a change. But the key, though, is that and that's true the concentration risk is there, but on the flip side, there's also a premium. You get a specialization premium that comes along with it. It's the reason if you look at a lawyer, the more specialized they are, the higher their billing rate, and so there's a premium that comes with that specialization. I know what I was going to say, and then I doubled down further where we have a concentration of risk within the scrap metal industry. But the benefit of that, though, is that when I show up to a scrap metal conference, I'm the only one there talking about IC disc, and I'm the one that well, a scrap guy introduced us. I mean, in fact, I won't mention him by name, but I call him my best unpaid salesman. He's referred as multiple clients. For a variety of reasons, they don't use us, but he's still a big fan of uh, of the work we do. So, yeah, and then the. Finally, there's this concept that has not caught on with a lot of americans. But there's this concept of saving Like you don't have to spend all your income in any given year, so there is this concept of you can make money, put it away and then, if the business goes away, you have this thing called like a nest egg, or you know. So People should think about it, yeah, but yeah my clients, my clients who I have a relationship with, that's. Oftentimes they'll ask me hey, dave, I'm a little worried about you, like as a friend, what happens if the IC disc goes away and I'm like I'll just spend more time there? That's what will happen. Roank: If it makes you feel better, I don't worry about you. I just think it's a very interesting company sale situation. I just think it's a very interesting company sale situation. Yeah, and you know, when you look at the environment today, you could be a tweet away from getting doged. Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah. So one of the you know, keep your head down and stay quiet, kind of things which appears to be the standard business approach to today's situation. Dave: It does seem to be. Roank: Well, hey Ronak. Dave: I can't believe how fast the time has floated. This has been a blast. I really appreciate it and I hope you have a great afternoon. Thank you, it's good to talk to you. Special Guest: Ronak Shah.

Service excellence emerges when businesses solve problems others avoid tackling. This week I spoke with Zohra Shroff from Sealink Logistics, a freight forwarding company that started in 2005 from a one-bedroom apartment in LA. Zohra joined the family business in 2006 and has helped grow it into a comprehensive logistics provider. Our conversation walked through the complete journey of shipping a container from Houston to India. Zohra detailed every step of the freight forwarding process, from initial customer vetting through final container return at destination. Their technology platform allows customers to book shipments, track cargo, and manage payments through their mobile app, maintaining this edge for over six years with live tracking and monthly rate updates. Their approach evolved from simply moving freight to becoming a complete logistics partner handling sea freight, air freight, and domestic transportation under one portal. When customers face problems like container mix-ups or space constraints, Zohra's team works directly with steamship lines to resolve issues rather than leaving customers stranded. This service model applies to any business where customer problems become your competitive advantage. When others walk away from complex situations, stepping in to solve them builds lasting relationships and premium pricing power. The freight forwarding industry reminded me that behind every simple transaction sits a web of coordination most people never see. Zohra's passion for helping customers navigate these complexities shows why service businesses thrive when they embrace the hard parts.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore Sealink's journey as a logistics company founded in 2005, emphasizing its deep family roots and innovative approach to the shipping industry. I discuss the complexities of the international shipping process, including filing shipping instructions with US Customs and securing an AES number. We highlight the challenges and financial implications for shippers when consignees refuse to pick up shipments, emphasizing the importance of financial due diligence. In our conversation, we examine the role of freight forwarders and the critical importance of service levels and customer support in the logistics industry. We delve into Zohra's entrepreneurial journey, from the jewelry industry in India to co-founding Sea Link in the U.S., illustrating the courage and determination required for such ventures. She provides insights into maritime routes and their impacts on transit times, including the choice between the Panama Canal and the Cape of Good Hope.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Zohra Shroff (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zohra-shroff-383276172/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Sealink International Inc GUEST Zohra ShroffAbout Zohra TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good morning Zohra. How are you today? Zohra: Good morning, I'm well. How are you I? Dave: am good Now. Are you calling in from San Francisco, or is that just a background you have? Zohra: No, it's just a background I have. Dave: Where are you calling in from? I am San. Zohra: Antonio Texas. San Antonio Texas. Dave: Yeah, soft spot for me. I went to high school in a suburb of San. Zohra: Antonio, oh, that's really nice. It's a great city, you know, small growing, not too big yet, but I guess eventually getting there. Dave: Yeah, Now are you a native of San Antonio. Zohra: I've been here almost 22 years now, so I think I am. Dave: Okay, and what about originally when? Zohra: are you from? Originally from India, Migrated to the US in the early 2000 and came into Jersey. Stayed there for a couple of years and then moved to San Antonio, Got married and moved to San Antonio. Dave: That's awesome. Zohra: So been here since then. Yes, so it's home now. Dave: That is great. So my wife is a native Texan. I'm what I choose to call a naturalized Texan. We have a saying. I got here as quick as I could. Zohra: I think I can say that now too. You know it's been wonderful, and it's home now. So yeah, it's great. Dave: That is great. So tell me about SeaLink. When did the company start? What prompted it to start? Who started it? Kind of a whole story. Zohra: Sure, sure, definitely. So. Sealink was started by Shaizad. He is my cousin and the forwarding business has been in our family for three generations now. Okay, india. And then my father took it over in the early 80s and 90s and then Shaizad joined him as well after he graduated from college. So he worked in the Indian market on at that point we used to do a lot of brick bulk vessels and we used to do containerized vessels as well. So that's how it all began. And then when Shaizad moved to the US I want to say in 2001, he was working for one of the forwarders and stuff for a few years and then he decided that we should, that he should start on his own. So he started Sealink in 2005 from LA, from his one bedroom apartment, just handling freehand cargo that our sister company back in India was anyways consigning to different agents in the US. And so then we took over that business and that's how we started. And then from there we are here today, grown to a fully export plus import oriented forwarder. So I think that's awesome. Dave: And when did you join the company? Zohra: I joined very early on 2006. So it was yeah, not very late on, so started in 2005. I joined in. I think we were September 2005,. If I'm not mistaken, I think I joined March 2006. Dave: Okay, so Shaizad gets credit for the first six months. Zohra: Yes, Shaizad gets credit for it. Dave: But you get credit for all the growth starting in 2006, right? Zohra: I wish I could take all the credit, but he is a visionary. He is a visionary and without his vision or without his farsightedness on you know what like, we don't want to just be called a forwarder. I don't like saying Sealink is just a forwarder. Because of that, because of his vision, I think we are so ahead of the market in terms of our competitors also and in terms of our vendors also, like overall, I think, for the shipping industry. I think we have it one notch up at, I think, at any given point. You know, just because we have because of his vision. I should again say that, because of Shaizad's vision of not only moving freight but making sure that we are giving service with the service industry and also making sure that we are making sure that we are giving the standard of service with the competitive rates at all time, and I think that is one thing that puts Seelink above. Of course, our technology is our greatest selling point. We've had our app I think so for over six years now six to seven years and you can do everything on our Seelink app you can book, you can give your documents, you can download an invoice, you can download an invoice, you can pay an invoice. You can track and trace your cargo. You can do everything on that app so you are not stuck to see that. Okay, what is going on on my shipment? You know where is my shipment. Why do I need to like hassle bustle and call somebody and someone's not answering the phone? So we have live tracking and tracing that shows on your website that your that your shipment has been delayed or there is a vessel delay or there is a longer transshipment hold. All of that information is available on our app, ready to go. Every month we update our rates so the customers know that in February, if my rate from place A to place B was $500, then we know that March 1st that rate is either going to be $400, depending on the market, or $600. So they have visibility of all of this, which is giving them ease of business. They can make their deals. They can look and then get a figure that, okay, you know what, my freight is going to be so much and my material is going to cost so much. This is what I need to do and this is how I can sell. So we give them all that information. Also, not only we are providing a sea, water services or sea services, we are even providing air freight, we are providing domestic, we are providing trade services. So, for example, if I have a customer who wants to move from Atlanta, atlanta into into Moondra, so I have a rate through the vendor from Atlanta to Moondra to Mundra, so I have a rate through the vendor from Atlanta to Mundra. But if he has a facility in Duluth, atlanta, and then wants to get into on the rail, so we provide that drage service as well. So he can put in his zip code that I need to pick up from so and so zip code, take it to the rail and then it'll go out, you know. So we provide that part of draGE as well, which is really helpful for our customers if they want to go ahead and offer that to their suppliers or to their clients as well. So everything is under one portal and easy access. That's what I can say. Dave: That sounds great. So even though I've been in this business for 20 years, working with exporters, I never really understood how the freight moved. So what I would love for you to do is let's imagine that I'm a brand new scrap broker, scrap metal broker, and I have my first load ready. It's in a container and it's at the Port of Houston. And so let's just imagine like, help me just understand all the steps. So I call you up and I say, zohra, how I've got this uh load of uh of scrap metal at the port in houston and I need to get it to uh, um, what would be a good, a good port in india. Zohra: That that, mundra, let's say. Dave: Let's say, so, walk me through like all the things that that like, just walk me through all the steps that have to happen okay. Zohra: So initially, if I'm onboarding a new scrap customer, we we have an onboarding process that goes into place. You know we we run their credit scores. We, you know, ask for references, we make sure the company is in good standing. Because we do all these thorough checks? Because in the end we don't want a long standing container in some other country where then Seelink is responsible. So we have a thorough vetting process. So it's not like you know, somebody didn't just come to me and say, hey, you know what, I want to move one box of scrap and please help me. It doesn't work like that anymore Because you know there has been so many people who have not done the right thing while moving metal scrap. You know they say that it is metal scrap, but they load something else and it happens. It's just the way the industry is right. So, first and foremost, when we onboard a customer, there is a whole onboarding process. We go ahead, we make sure that the customer is vetted completely. For some reasons, if there is no scores, we ask them for their financials, three years financials and sometimes we even ask for a deposit, depending on the situation of the customer. That's how our onboarding process works. Once the onboarding process is done, then they can go on the website or the app and they can see what port pairs they are moving this freight on. Now, for example, if they are buying from Houston and they want to move from Houston to Moondra, they will plug in on my website Houston to Moondra 120 footer metal scrap and they will see all the steamship lines that I have rates on. It could be MSC, maersk, capagloid, you know all of these top three, four lines where I can say that, ok, this is what your price will. If you want to ship with Maersk, your price is A. If you want to ship with MSC, your price is B. It will give them the transit time. Some of the shippers are very, very, very, very concerned about the transit time. Shippers are very, very, very, very concerned about the transit time. It depends on what they're shipping. If they're shipping ferris and it is, like you know, maybe five boxes they might not be very concerned. But if they're shipping non-ferris, they might be like okay, zohra, I need a 45 day transit. So then I'm telling them okay, choose Maersk or MSC, because their transit is somewhere between 45 to 46 days, you so so let's say so. Dave: Let's say I pick mursk mursk. Zohra: Yes, so then you go on my app and then you hit book. Once you hit book, I get a notification saying abcd has made a booking request from houston to mundra for next week's cutoff for 120 footer. I come inside, I come into play, my team goes ahead, makes the booking on Maersk and turns it around and about. I want to say we want to try to keep it under two hours, so we go ahead and we send a booking confirmation that has all the information of this load. So, the customer exactly knows that, okay, this load needs to get picked up, the empty container needs to get picked up at Bayport Terminal. Okay, once the trucker picks it up at Bayport Terminal, they go to their facility, they get it loaded If the customer is doing their own trucking. If the customer says, or I don't have a trucker in Houston, do my trucking, then I'll offer him, I'll say give me your zip code in Houston, I'll give you a dredge rate and then I can go pick up, schedule your trucking. So I will schedule the trucking, get the container loaded, bring it back to the port, return it loaded at the port and then from there it will sit on the port on the day of the cutoff and then from there we will go ahead and make sure that it gets loaded on the ship. There. We will go ahead and make sure that it gets loaded on the ship. Now, that is where the whole process is working in terms of getting this container into the port. Now, once it's into the port, then it is the customer's responsibility to go ahead and send me shipping instructions. Who is he shipping to? Who is his shipper? Who is his consignee? What is the container number? What is the weight. What is the weight? What is the seal? Dave: is there a name for that set of documents? Zohra: yes, it's called shipping instructions the shipping instructions. So those shipping instructions are given to, given by the, the customer, to us. We go ahead and we put it. Dave: I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. I just really want to make sure understand yeah so those instructions? Is that done electronically through your website? Zohra: We can do it electronically. There are lots of customers who send us emails also, so, however, they are comfortable. Dave: Okay. Zohra: If they feel comfortable, there is a way on our website to go ahead and save their shipper and consignees as well, so they can just click, click and say that, okay, this is my shipper, this is my consignee, and then they just change the container name or the container number and weight and seal number. Dave: Okay, so I've given you the shipping instructions. Zohra: Yes, Now you've given me the shipping instructions, I'm going to go back and send you. I'm going to put everything on the BL and I'm going to send you a draft bl. I'm going to say, hey, this is what your draft, a draft bl will look. So you will go ahead and get a draft bl from ceiling and you will check everything your shipper, your consign what is bl? a bill of lading okay yes, the bill of lading, but this is a draft copy, okay, so we, so we can still make changes. If you say, oh, you know what, I don't want to write metal scrap, I want to write heavy metal scrap. So can you edit that for me? Or if your consignee says you know what, I want to add a notify party, so we're going to be like, ok, we'll add a notify party. So we send you a draft copy and stuff like that and we tell you that, okay, please look at it thoroughly, this is what your draft, this is what your bl is going to look like. Okay, so once they check everybody is in order, we go ahead, we take and we file those shipping instructions with the us customs. We tell them that, hey, this person is shipping this cargo from here to here. These are the details. And then we file the entry into the US Customs. They come back with an AES number for us where it is that OK, you know what. The customs has approved your shipment. This is your AES filing number and now you're good to go. Dave: And what does AES stand for? Zohra: It's an automated uh-oh export system export uh automated export documentation okay, yeah yeah. So it's like uh, it's like an ams that you file from the import side, and where does the and then the uh container number? Is that going to be? Dave: in shipping instructions yeah, so it'll still end up on the bill of lading. Zohra: Yes, yes, everything. All this information, shipper consignee, container number, weight, seal, what commodity you have shipped. Everything will appear on the bill of lading, All of this instructions, so everybody has clarity on what has shipped, who has shipped and where is it going. Dave: Okay. Zohra: Also, and if Seelaling has done the trucking for this customer, then I'm not even asking him for the container number because the trucker will give me. He's my trucker, so he's going to be like hey, I pulled this container number. Once I load it, I'll give you the weight and seals. So once we send out the draft BL, it is approved, we go ahead and we send all the information to the Steam ship line, whichever vendor you chose, and we file everything. Dave: We ask the Now where does it, I'm sorry. When does it ship? From being a draft to being a final After the customs process? Zohra: After sailing, after sailing. So once the customs is processed, we have all our information. Once the shipment is sailed, then the steamship line will be like okay, your shipment has sailed, Everything looks good. This is your original bill of lading. Dave: And sailed is a reference to 200 years ago, right With ship that sails Does it? Just mean it's departed the port. It has departed the port, yes. Zohra: So once it is sailed and then after, I think most of the time, they give us a draft in two days of sailing. The original bill will come out in two days of sailing and then from there, once we have the original bill, the customer does have a choice that if he wants a complete set of original bill of ladings, so that means that's a paper copy, or else he wants a telex, which would be an electronic copy. And then he can say that oh, you know what, I don't mind, my consignee doesn't mind a telex release. So if you can go ahead and update this to a telex release, and is the telex? Dave: is it truly going through the old telex system or is it just being electronic? Zohra: It's through the old telex system or does it just mean electronic? It's just meaning electronic. There's no funny how the language just stays around. Right, yeah, okay, all right, so go ahead. Yeah, so once. So then they have a choice to either have some of the guys if they have an lc, they would like the obl so that way they have control on the cargo, they have control on the money, and then they release the bills once they get paid and if they are confident, if they are a regular shipper and a regular consignee, they might go in for a telex release which is just electronic Gotcha. Dave: So then it leaves Houston, and I'm guessing does it go through the Panama Canal. Zohra: Depends on the routing. Some go through the Panama Canal, some do not, so it just depends on what route the steamship line is taking. Dave: I'm just curious. So if it's going from Houston to Moondra, I mean it's got to get around South America. Zohra: Yeah, yeah. So it would go through the canal and if not, because of all the issues that we're going through now, a lot of steamship lines have been routing it to the Cape of Good Hope. Dave: So they've been going that direction, that direction Around Africa. Zohra: Okay, yes, yes, so that makes it a little bit transit longer, but just the safety was more important at that point. Dave: So a lot of routes. Zohra: At least it's a predictable amount of time even though it's longer, and so if it goes, around Houston to Mondra by the Cape under Cape of Good Hope. Dave: How many days does that typically I? Zohra: think it added. I think it added 15 days to the transit. Dave: So what would that? Be total transit so about 60 days about 60 days. Zohra: Yeah, so I think first it was 45 days and then it became 60 days when they were doing, uh, the cape of good hope. Um, I and you know what, sometimes it even is a little bit shorter. I did see a couple of vessels that were doing 55 days also. So I think it just depends on you know how, how how delayed the vessel is, or if there is any any issues on any transshipment ports and stuff like that. So sometimes it's hard to say if it's going to be like anywhere between 40 to 60 days okay, so now it's on the water, is there just no activity at this point? Dave: is there any? Zohra: hopefully you don't want any activity, you just want everything to be good. But there are things that happen, like you heard about the Baltimore issue that happened early last April. I want to say it's going to be a year that everything was good to go. The vessel was ready to sail and it hit the bridge right and that was disastrous and that lasted for six months. Containers, fellers, fell in the water and you know some got damaged and then you know those things. Yeah, we don't want those things to happen, but of course it is. It is an inevitable. Like you know, hazards happen sometimes, so you would want that. Dave: Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I know you know this really well and so I'm sorry I have to keep stopping you for such basic questions. Zohra: No, no, not at all Do the containers these days. Dave: Do they have any electronic tracking on the containers? Zohra: Some do and some don't. Okay, so the ones that do like. Dave: Is it RF tracking or a different type of electronic tracking? Zohra: I don't believe they have an RF tracking. Most of our containers do not have a tracker because the lines will only give us 10 plus old, 10 plus year containers to load scrap, I see. So we don't get the nice fancy containers. So, most of us are not trackable. Okay, so my scrap load, load. Dave: It's not being tracked but it's on the boat it's on the boat, and so it's sailing, and then now it shows up in mundra. And what happens now? Zohra: so once it shows up in mundra, the steamship line that you have picked is going to send an arrival notice, five to seven days, to your consignee in India or your forwarder in India, whoever you have put on the BL instructions, so you will get an arrival notice. Dave: Now will you be? Will you be the forwarder in India? Zohra: No, no, we do have our own office in India, but most of metal scrap moves on a master bill, so there is really no requirement of a forwarder per se needed when your shipment reaches destination. Dave: They just need a broker and they can clear their shipment and pick it up at the port. Okay, so the ship arrives, and then that starts the arrival notice. Time clock. Zohra: Yeah. Dave: From the time it's actually lands. No, so the arrival notice you will get from the time it's actually lands? Zohra: no, so the arrival notice you will get five to seven days before arrival. So it gives you it gives you ample of time to say that okay, you know what my shipment is coming in. Let me get my docks ready and file it with the Indian customs. Because you can file, I want to say, four days before your shipment is arriving. Dave: So you're not scrambling, and how do we know that the ship is five to seven days away? Zohra: Is there tracking of the ship? Yes, yes, you can track it. Dave: Does the captain get on the radio? Call Zohra. Yeah, hey, I'm about five days away. Zohra: Yeah, no, so the shipment can be tracked on the steam ship lines website also, and plus on ceilings, on ceilings website as well. so you, will see, definitely that your shipment is arriving in three days or five days. If there is a delay, it will blink red and say that hey, there is a delay. And then when you get your arrival notice from the steam ship line, also it will have a date of arrival. It will be like, okay, you know this shipment is arriving on so and so date, so you are prepared that. Okay, you know what. My shipment's coming in five days. Let me get all my documents ready. Dave: Let me have it send it to my broker, you can start and you can start the process with the india customs four days before. I want to go four to five days before so that way, when the ship lands, the you can you already have your entry done and you already know that. Zohra: You know there are no holds of customs and you've paid your freight and you can go along and say that, okay, you know what, I just need the ship to berth. Once they unload my containers, then you know I can just send my trucker to go pick it up. Everything will show green released. You know, unless they have not paid ceiling, then I'll hold the cargo. Dave: Yeah, okay, and help me understand, because I'm an accountant by training. Help me understand the payment of the shipping. At what point do I pay for the shipping? Zohra: Okay, so we have. I want to say 90% of our customers are cash customers. So, when they need their original bill of lading after sailing. We generate an invoice after two days of sailing most of the time, because the line will give us a BL and an invoice in a couple of days. We go ahead, we generate that, we give it to the customer and when he wants to release his shipment he makes a payment to us. So whether it is an OBL or a DELEX, it doesn't matter. When he will tell me okay, zohra, he can go on my website and say release bill. He can go ahead and it will show him that you owe so-and-so amount for this shipment in order to get your release. He can go make a payment and then within 24 hours he will get a release from us. Dave: Okay, Because without that release will the Indian customs not unload. Zohra: No, the Indian customs doesn't really have any control on that. The Indian customs is only getting involved, saying, okay, I have a vessel that has 200 containers coming into India. I need documents to just make sure that it is what they are claiming it is. So they don't have anything to do with our BL release. They only work with customs release. So if I said that I have moved metal scrap and if there is battery in that box, that's a flag for the US customs and I mean for the Indian customs and they will be like I'm going to hold this box. So at that point that box is on a customs hold. Customs will not worry about a BL hold. There are two types of hold. One is a BL hold where either I or the steamship line is holding it for payment, holding it for payment, and then the customs hold is because there is an exam or there is some kind of uh inspection they want to do on the container or if they find some misdeclarations and stuff like that okay yeah, okay, yeah and then, so it shows up, it goes through customs. Dave: Uh, the freight forwarder there puts it on a truck, yeah, and then the truck goes to the warehouse or wherever they need to originally drop. Zohra: They go ahead, they unload the goods off the container. They make sure everything is weight and the weight is matching to what they had claimed it was. Sometimes the weight has shifted or sometimes they feel like, okay, the weight is less, then internally they will file a claim. It doesn't happen a lot, but some things sometimes do happen. And then, once the shipment has been unloaded, they have to make sure it is their responsibility to return the empty container back to the depot. So, once this empty container is returned back in India, that's when my shipment is closed here. Dave: That okay, you know what. Zohra: My empty container has been returned. This has been picked up. Everything is good, payment is good. We are good to close this file. Okay so one file can be open anywhere from 45 days to 60 days, okay, and then if you have issues with that shipment, then it can go longer. If the consignee refuses to pick up the shipment, the consignee abandons, you know, the shipment and says, oh, I don't, I don't have money to pay for it, I can't pick it up. That's when we get into different problems. You know that. Okay, then we need to figure out what we want to do and we all have to keep in mind that every country, every destination country, gives you a few days of free days. So when my shipment arrives in India with my contracts I have 14 free days. So for 14 days I'm not going to get billed for that container sitting at the port. But on that 15th day the clock will start and then, you know, all those charges for demurrage will start occurring for port charges, and then that becomes an expensive, you know, charge that will be billed back to the shipper here because he will have to take accountability of why his consignee didn't pick up the shipment or whatever happened. Dave: You know, and this is part of why you do your financial due diligence on the customers, because you need to make sure that they're a solid business. Solid business, the customer is going to pick it up. Yeah. Zohra: And sometimes we do the due diligence on the shipper part and you know we don't really know what the consignees are in different countries. So now we've started even collaborating with the US customs and you know we run the consignees also through our AES system and if there is like a faulty consignee, then that gets flagged in our system. This is something very new that we have started and we are proud to say that now we are going to run them also to make sure that you know what. There is utmost ease in this process, you know, not to say that when I run the check he's a good consignee and then in the 30 days or the 60 days of the transit something went wrong. Right, I'm not saying that's not going to happen, but at least at the time of the shipment we know everything is a green check, you know. So that's one extra step that we have started taking now, because of so much long standing in different countries are happening due to consignee abandonments. You know, people not paying the banks, lc issues, frauds, people have said that, oh, they are going to do it and then they don't do it. So because of that we are trying to do this extra check where at least the shipper is also at ease. We are also at ease at the time of shipment, and we have this great tool that the US customer is offering us, and so we've started using that as well. Dave: Okay, yeah. So let's instead imagine that this first container is by a friend of mine. Let's say he tells me oh Dave, these freight forwarders are just so expensive, I'm just going to do this all myself. Sure, I would say to them good luck, yes. I would say good luck, because this sounds like an impossible thing to try to do on your own Virtually impossible. Zohra: So a lot, a lot of customers or BCOs that I can say is like the direct shippers, like, of course, the Walmarts and the targets they have, they have a shipping department that does this, of course. But if you have, like, a small trader who's sitting out of Houston or probably New York, it is not worth his headache to do this, because there are lots of small nitty gritty things that are happening along the way, like, for example, I gave you this booking, okay, from Houston to Moondra. Now you have arranged for a trucker, the trucker is trying to pull an empty and my booking is not on file. Okay you are sitting and making a phone call to that line saying, oh, my booking is not on file. I have a trucker. Your trucker is charging you $65 because he's in line for an hour, gets to the terminal and the booking is not on file. I have a trucker. Your trucker is charging you $65 because he's in line for an hour, gets to the terminal and the booking is not on file. They're not going to let him wait there. He will have to go back in the line. So doing business with a forwarder is bringing you ease of these kind of kinks that are going to cost you financially. It is going to cost you a $65 dry run fee or a $65 detention fee for that guy to turn around and stand back in the line With us. We go ahead and we make sure that their booking is on file. Most of the time the depots are filled with containers. And again, I'm not saying that things don't happen. Of course things happen. But if you are a guy who's moving five to seven boxes a week, you don't have the time to sit and call for every booking and say, hey, is my booking on file? Is my trucker standing there? Do we have chassis, you know? Do the container depots have containers mounted on chassis? Do I have to take my own chassis? What's going on, at least with with us? We are telling them okay, your pickup is here, your booking is on file, go ahead, send the trucker again. Sometimes, when the trucker is there, some things happen. Then we can go ahead and fix it. I just feel like, because we are, our relationships are so much more deeper with the lines, you know what we can try to solve problem faster than someone trying to do this first time on their own or even if they've been in the business. Because these are painstaking things you know, like getting appointments to return. Like APM terminal in New York, it is a nightmare right now. It is a nightmare to get an appointment to return your box. So think about it. It. You pulled a box, you loaded it. Now you need to return it and your trucker is trying to get an appointment right and everything is showing full. Your cutoff is tomorrow. So you know those kind of hassles come in, which all come with the financial costs, and I'm not saying that you know what. Every time we will be coming to the rescue, but I feel like we have. So we have a good leverage to come to solve your problems, to make it easy to ship for you guys. You know our job is to make it easy to ship and you can have, you can have, you can be stress-free and you can concentrate on the growth of your business instead of worrying about how one container is going to move. You know yeah now, that's where we come in well, you've sold me. Dave: When I, if I ever get into the scrap metal business and ship to mundra, you'll be the first call thank you now I understand this now. This may be shocking, but I understand that there are other freight forwarders besides Sealink. Oh yes, oh yes, but help me understand, though I imagine that on the surface it's funny. Every business like when you're an outsider, it looks like a commodity, right, you know, it just looks like they're all the same. So if you don't know anything about, I don't know whatever like, let's say, farming equipment. To me, all farming equipment looks the same. I'm sure there's differences between them. Some do better at some things than others. Some are more expensive, some are cheaper, and so I'm sure that it's like that in the freight forwarding world. So give me an example that it's like that in the freight forwarding world. So give me an example. I'm sure that from time to time you get a call from somebody and says Zohra, my current freight forwarder dropped the ball once again and I'm fed up with them. I want to start using you all. Let's think back to maybe an example of that. And of course you don't mention the customer name or the prior freight forwarder. But what's a typical fact pattern that makes them shift from somebody else to you all? Zohra: so in in all these years of of me being at ceiling, the the majority people turn back to us is because of service levels. If there is a problem, I'm not going to run away. I'm going to sit with my customer, explain to them that this is an issue and we need to work together. It is going to cost. Let's come to that understanding that it is going to cost. Am I going to do my very best to make the cost minimal? Yes, yes, of course, though I know that the customer is at fault or the trucker is at fault, it doesn't matter. But we at Sealing believe that we are not going to haggle our customers when they are in problems to make a quick buck. We're not going to do that. We are never going to do that. So we make sure that if a customer is stranded like I'll give you an example right now, I have a situation I have a booking from A-Line Okay, and we got a container loaded. Okay, we got a container loaded. When the container got returned at the port, we got an email from the A-Line saying hello, this container doesn't belong to us. So then we started digging. We started digging, we found out that my customer had used another forwarder's booking for a line that ceiling doesn't work with. Okay. So there are seven, eight vendors we work with and two, three vendors we don't work with. Okay. So now I have a situation where I have a container loaded sitting in the port which my line is saying Zohra, I can't move it, it's not my box, I can't on hire this box because they won't let me. Though it is a partner box, they won't let me. You need to go to this line and figure out what you want to do. Now, zohra or ceiling doesn't work with this line. And my customer is frustrated because his forwarder, who gave him this booking, is saying oh, I can't do anything. You pulled a box now and my booking I gave it to somebody else so that booking is full. Now okay so now he has no space to accommodate this box here, okay, okay. So I'm not going to tell my customer. Oh, you know what? You got a booking from another forwarder on a line that ceiling doesn't work with. You figure out your stuff, because this container here is already accumulating demurrage, sitting sitting on the boat, which is $250 a day. So now yesterday what I did is I called the line that I don't work with and I gave them the whole rundown. I gave them the container number. I told them see, this is what is going on. I understand we don't work with you guys, but can you go ahead and help us? So yesterday they said okay, you know what, we can help you all. We are going to try to see we can reach out to the other forwarder and increase his booking and make sure that this can get returned at that point. Would that that other forwarder should have taken that step to help his customer, who is also my customer, but because of the service failure, or because maybe he doesn't, he was not able to understand how to problem solve this or troubleshoot this, or probably he just didn't have the resources to do it? I don't know. But if my customer came to me and is stranded. I am going to offer that help. I'm not going to be looking here to make a quick buck and say, hey, I don't work with this guy. Pay these 200 demurrage or go ahead and dray out the container. Pay $900 to dray out the container and then go back reloaded in my Steam Ship Lines box. Dave: I see so what happened in that scenario? Zohra: So now today I mean this is very live. This just happened like two days ago. So now today, hopefully you know, the line that I'm not working with has talked to that forwarder and hopefully we have increased his original booking and now we can attach this container to his booking. Go ahead and tell that line. Okay, please move this. Tell my customer. Go ahead, I have increased your booking. Please go to your forwarder, submit your shipping instructions and make sure your container gets on water on the next vessel. You will have some demerit charges which you will have to settle directly with the port, so they had to find space on the line that owned the container. Yes. Dave: Okay. Zohra: Yeah, the line that owned the container. So right now, because of so much of vessel shiftings, right, every vendor in the market whether it is Maersk, hapag, lloyd, zim, msc, all these lines are relocating services, they're readjusting services. Someone is coming into a new alliance, someone has come out of an alliance. There are lots of new vessels come into the market, larger ships come into the market, so everyone is adjusting a lot of vessels. So that is why it is very space, a space constraint. Right now. There are blank sailings, you know, to make sure that these new services are well adjusted for april. So, uh, so that is why there is this space issue. If there was no space issue, right, there wouldn't be a problem I see the other forwarder could pick up the phone and get it right right and the containers are owned by the shipping lines yes, the container. Dave: That's why, when I see a railroad when I'm sitting at a rail stop yeah comes by. Zohra: I see the maersk yeah, the big blue, because that's one of their containers yes, a musk or any, or a costco hat bag, they they all they all own their containers. Yes, correct, wow. Dave: So how, uh, it sounds like you have to work 168 hours a week, I mean, if you're in the service business yeah, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think moondraw is on a different time zone. Zohra: Yes, yes, yeah it's almost end of working day for them right now. Actually, before this, I was on my india office call. We have our own office in india as well, so we have a call with them once a week to just see what's going on, how's business, what can we do to support from here. So they were already, like you know, getting ready to go home, because it's almost eight o'clock in the night over there so is it safe to assume that you, that eight to five is not the sole hours that you work? there is no eight to five in this industry. No, there isn't. Dave: No, I mean my business you know, is to somewhat the same way. I mean, what I tell my clients is all you need to know about the ic disc is my mobile number. Yeah, that's it. That's all you need to know. Just call me, I'll take care of it. Zohra: Yeah, that's how we are, that's how we are. Customers call us, whatsapp us, email us and we try to service. We try to service. We are in the service industry. We believe our service is, is on top and if, and and I'm not saying c-link is the cheapest, I'm not saying that even at but we thrive on it because we know that. You know our customers, and hats off to our customers. Their support has got us here and they are willing to pay us an extra $25 for what we offer. We offer the app, we offer the service. All my sales reps are very in touch with the customers. They just don't sell and then you never see them. It's not. That doesn't work here. You know we do trade shows. We see our customers there make it a point at least two times a year. We are seeing our customers. We have FaceTime with them. So it's not like you're going to like have a salesperson. Dave: They sell you a rate and then they are gone. It's not going to be like that. Zohra: Your point of contact is your salesperson. Of course we don't want our salespeople to get in operations which they don't. Their work is to sell. But customer is not going to feel like isolated saying that, oh you know what. So, and so was my salesperson at ceiling. They sold me a rate and now have all these problems and I don't know who to go to. You know that problem will never arise. Like you say that problem will never arise like you say that, uh, your cell phone number is what they need for us. It's just just email email me or email one of my reps, and you will get a response, like I can promise that well, you all have a booth at the rima san diego show. Dave: I'll be sure to stop by, will you be wow? Yes, I'm gonna be there I'll be sure to stop by. Oh, that'll be awesome, yeah, we do rima every year? Yeah, we've been doing it for the past several years now okay, yes, so uh, uh, wow, I can't believe how the time has flown. Zohra: Yeah, it's um, it wasn't that bad, like I thought it would, I know. Dave: So, so a couple, so last couple questions what? What do you enjoy the most about your job, like what's the most satisfying part of your role within C-Link. Zohra: Helping my customers. Dave: Okay, I had a feeling that was it? Zohra: I really, really find it satisfying when I see an email saying you know, thanks, Zohra, you saved my life, you know, or you know like. Dave: Chad, he's our sales director. Zohra: You know, thanks, zohra, you saved my life, you know, or you know, like Chad, he's our sales director. You know he'll send out an email saying, okay, you're a miracle worker, not to me, but to my teams as well, right, because sometimes it's, it's very frustrating to get small things done right, and when that small thing gets done, then everything flows. So I feel like once you get them that ease, that, okay, now their cargo is going to flow. I feel, I feel satisfied, my teams feel satisfied, right. So I think, just helping out and making sure we are there, that's, you know, that's, I think, is very important, because if you're missing in this chain, your customer is just going to be stranded, you know. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes makes sense. So last two questions. So one's kind of serious and the last one's fun. So the serious one is um, if you could go back 20 years, and what year did you say you came to the uS? Zohra: I came in 2000. Dave: Okay, so if you could go, if you had a time machine and you could go back and you could give advice to yourself back in the year 2000, what advice or pep talk or insight, would you tell yourself? Zohra: you tell yourself that I should have started this earlier. I did. Dave: I don't know why I waited till 2006, okay, so yeah that you know that's the answer that every client gives yeah, that they, they didn't start the business, or they didn't do this because they were afraid or there was risk or whatever. And the advice they always, almost always, give is don't be afraid, take the risk, do it. Zohra: Yes, yes, I agree. So I'll give you a little background. So before I joined Shaizad, I was working at a wholesale jewelry place. We had, you know, huge wholesale and we had a lot of mexican um imported jewelry. You know, we used to sell a lot like. It was a very different, different field altogether. We used to supply to all the big stores and stuff like that. And then when shazad started this, you know, he told me he's like I don't know if I can, like we'll be able to afford a salary, or you know how it's going to be, because I'm just starting and and and we don't know. You know how it's going to work because right now I don't have overhead expenses. So think about it, right. So, like I said, he's a visionary, right. And he just told me one thing he's like I promise you that you will not regret, right. And at that point I feel he, he was all. He already taken the risk, he had already taken the risk, he had left his job at at another forwarder and taken the risk to start this. And when he told me that you know you won't regret, I just I just took the leap of faith and said you know what? This is it. If I think I would have like thought a little bit more and said, oh, I won't. I don't know how I'm going to replace my income or what's going to happen. I don't know if this is going to work. I feel like maybe we wouldn't be here. So I think sometimes you just take that leap and then leave it up to the big man up and I think it all works out with your hard work. But you have to put in the work, I feel. Dave: Sure, that is great. Well, my last question, a fun one. So in Houston we have a thriving Indian community and I have a lot of great Indian restaurants to choose from. So two questions. One if you want really good Indian food in San Antonio, do you have to go to your kitchen? Zohra: Or are there some good Indian restaurants in San Antonio? Actually, now there are a couple of good Indian restaurants in San. Antonio, I can say that you know. Dave: Because I'm guessing the Indian population in San Antonio is a lot smaller than Indian. Zohra: Yes, it is a lot smaller, but I can now say if you would ask me this five years ago, I would be like nothing my kitchen but, now I can say actually we just went to one day before yesterday and it was pretty nice. Dave: So yes, yeah, I think I am heading to Houston, uh, next week. Zohra: so I'm going to make it a point to go to one of the nice restaurants Indian restaurants to know, get some food, that's great, which I think. Dave: I think the yellow curry is my favorite. What's your favorite curry? Zohra: I think I'm not very fond of curries, but I think I'm not a big. I'm not a big curry person, so, but I think my favorite Indian food would be biryani. Dave: Okay. Zohra: Yeah, the rice with the meat. Yeah, yeah, I think that that is awesome. Dave: Well, Zohra, thank you again for coming on the show sharing your story, the SeaLink story and uh and sharing your passion. It really comes through that you and uh and Shaizad both have a passion for serving your customers, and that's really. It's always fun to hear that somebody's just really enjoying what they do. Zohra: Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you for having me and thank you for letting me talk about sealing, and I hope that whoever listens to this, you know, comes to us and uses us. Thank you. Dave: That sounds great. You have a great day. Zohra: You too, you too. Special Guest: Zohra Shroff.

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Tim Loney about his transition from airline industry professional to IT services entrepreneur. He shares his path from working at Continental Airlines through major mergers to establishing Solutions Information Systems, explaining how his experience with severance packages motivated his shift into entrepreneurship. We discuss the importance of business continuity planning, particularly for companies in hurricane-prone areas. Tim tells me about a Houston client whose facilities experienced severe flooding, highlighting how proper data recovery systems made a crucial difference in their ability to resume operations. Managing sensitive data is a key topic in our conversation, as Tim's company works with high-net-worth families, family office sectors, as well as companies in a variety of industries. He explains how word-of-mouth referrals have helped build trust with these clients who require careful handling of confidential information. The conversation turns to Tim's approach to business acquisition, where he focuses on purchasing IT firms from retiring owners. He describes his method of maintaining and growing these businesses post-purchase while sharing insights about how remote management tools have transformed IT services over the past 35 years.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Tim's career evolution from working in the airline industry with Continental Airlines and American Express to establishing his own IT services firm, Solutions Information Systems, in Houston, Texas. Tim shared insights on how his managed IT services company has established a national presence by utilizing robust remote management tools and enterprise-class processes. We explored the importance of business continuity and rapid data recovery, highlighted by a story of a Houston-based company that faced severe flooding and required effective disaster recovery solutions. Tim's firm specializes in managing sensitive data for high-income families in construction and family office sectors, emphasizing the importance of trust and credibility built through word-of-mouth referrals. We discussed Tim's strategy for acquiring small businesses from retiring owners, focusing on enhancing the value of these businesses post-acquisition to ensure continued growth. Tim reflected on his entrepreneurial journey from modest beginnings, emphasizing the significance of diversifying income sources and the evolving importance of data protection in the digital age. The episode concluded with an exploration of the evolution of office communication over the last 35 years, showcasing the technological advancements that have redefined the IT industry.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Tim Loney (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sis-tloney/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Solutions Informations Systems GUEST Tim LoneyAbout Tim TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, good afternoon, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. Tim: Hi, Dave, good to see you. Dave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Tim: I'm in Houston, Texas, just north of Houston, in the Tomball area. Dave: Okay. Tim: Up in our corporate headquarters for the company. Dave: Okay, and now are you a native Houstonian. Tim: I am not. I'm not a native Houstonian. I should be probably classified as a native Houstonian because I've been here for about 35 years or more. Dave: Okay. Tim: But my background is I migrated from Canada the day before my 21st birthday. Dave: Oh, you did. Tim: Yeah, I became a permanent resident here in the United States. And what caused you to want to do that? The economy was pretty bad in Canada at that time and I was working for a commercial airline that had gone through a severance package and they released me with my severance package and I said you know, maybe I should try another country, not just a job, but maybe another country. Dave: Okay, so when you came to Houston then did you stay in the airline? Tim: business I did. I worked for one of the large international airlines called Continental Airlines at the time, which has since been acquired by United Airlines. Dave: You know, to this day I can still tell a legacy Continental flight crew from a legacy United flight crew. Very different cultures, very different cultures, or, as I say, the Continental folks are nice and the United folks are not so nice. Tim: Correct, yeah, I was there during the heavy competition years between Continental Airlines and United. I was actually there in the process with Continental Airlines during a very large merger and acquisition of multiple carriers. We acquired Frontier, people Express and New York Air and put them all under the umbrella of Continental Airlines. So I was there during those years. Dave: Okay, so were you there in the late 90s. So were you there in the late 90s. Tim: I was there from 1985 to 1990. Dave: Okay, yeah, I was only asking because I'd worked at an executive search firm in the late 90s and we worked with Continental during their like, go forward initiative or move forward initiative. Tim: Yep the go forward plan with Gordon Blithoon. He was Yep. Dave: Yep, that was it. So then you left the airline business. What did you decide to go do then? Tim: So I left the airline business and I went to work for one of the largest credit card companies in the world called American Express. Dave: Okay, I think I've heard of them. Tim: Yep and because I had a lot of automation knowledge of how the airlines work. From an automation standpoint, American Express was interested in me and understanding the automation behind the airlines and travel agency systems and they brought me in to be a systems person for the airlines to help them in kind of standardizing a lot of procedures within American Express. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds like a fun opportunity. Tim: Yeah, very rewarding, very educational. I learned so much during my term at American Express. Dave: Okay, but you decided that at some point you wanted to unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Tim: unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Yeah, you know now that I look back at it. You know I was. I grew up in a family where you were encouraged to go work for a large organization and a big fortune 100 firm, and through your entire life, and leave with a gold Rolex watch and have a great retirement plan. Dave: Yeah. Tim: But as I followed that path, I found myself continuing to get severance packages over and in my experience with the Fortune 100s I received three or four severance packages and those packages kind of educated me on that. It was maybe not the right gig for me and, you know, I was smart enough to be able to exit out of the Fortune 100s and do something on my own, and that's when I decided to start my organization. Dave: Okay, and what's your company called? Tim: So my company is Solutions Information Systems Solutions IS to abbreviate it and we are a managed service provider of IT services across the United States, managing about 175 customers across the US oh wow. Dave: That's interesting. I would have thought you'd have your clients would all be in the Houston area. I guess this newfangled internet thing lets you serve clients remotely. Is that, I guess, how it works? Tim: Yeah, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about what makes us so successful, but the ability to manage and monitor and remediate issues remotely has come a long ways over the years that I've been in IT. Now it's pretty much if you can't do that, why are you in this industry, right? So yeah, and you know it's a lot of like the entire work from home program that the whole world has kind of moved to. We have that ability to do exactly all of that stuff, not only from our corporate headquarters, but remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do that as well. So it requires a massive tool set, and I'll refer probably to our tool set a lot, because that's what makes us successful, right Is the tool set that I've been able to put together and build a toolbox full of tools to be able to manage, secure, maintain these infrastructures that we're responsible for. Dave: Well. Tim: I thought IT service firms were. Dave: I thought that was a commodity service. I thought they're all the same. Tim: Oh no, there's quite a bit of difference in how these managed service providers operate and I'll tell you, I would consider us probably in the top 100 nationally and probably the top three in our region of service providers, and the reason I kind of give us that grade and that's a grade that I've given us is that we've been at this for 25 years. I started this practice 25 years ago. I started this practice 25 years ago and over those 25 years I not only brought in enterprise class processes and procedures from my 10 years at American Express, but I've improved upon those processes and procedures over those 25 years. Dave: And we continue to improve on those processes. Okay. Well, what? Yeah, I'm guessing that you're. The clients tend to stay with you for a pretty long time. Is that like until they sell or go out of business or some significant event occurs? Absolutely. Tim: Yeah, and that and that's the type of client that we want to have in our portfolio, right? This is not a consumable product that you go and buy once and go away this is a partnership with our customers. Dave: It really is. Tim: You have to think about the IT infrastructure of any business out there. It's number one, a foundational piece of the business, and it is an instrumental piece in continuing to do business right. A lot of conversations I have are around data protection and security, and that's a lot of what we do right Is how do we protect the data that the customer has and how do we make sure that it remains secure and that nobody compromises that data or extracts that data or modifies that data that's on their infrastructure. Dave: Okay, and I'm guessing you're not trying to be the low-cost provider. Tim: We are not the low-cost provider. I wouldn't say we're the most expensive organization out there, but we are in the higher side, and the reason that we're the higher side is we bring a huge value to an organization. There is a lot of components within the IT support model that our lower competitors don't provide or don't understand, and those are the weaknesses within an organization that will cost them considerable damage to an organization if they get exposed right. Dave: Yeah. Tim: And then kind of go through those if you want to cover some of that stuff. Like let's just give an example of a business continuity plan right. If a company doesn't have a business continuity plan, that should be something that they should have in place, and they should have worked with their IT service provider or internal IT team to make sure that they've got a business continuity plan. If they don't, when an event happens, it's a total dumpster fire right, because they don't know what to do and they're very disorganized and it takes them an extremely long time to be able to recover, if they recover at all. So that's one example. Another example is compliance. There's a lot of compliance that's out there and that compliance is in place for a reason. Compliance is in there because somehow something got compromised and this is a compliance requirement that you now have to be in compliance with. It may be an access control compliance thing. It might be a reporting compliance to a legal agency. Dave: So talk to me about the first thing you refer to as the disaster recovery plan or the disaster recovery and business continuity. Okay, so my listeners love stories, so could you give me an example, like of one of your clients you know anonymously, that maybe went through a situation or maybe a company who was not a client but after they had an issue they hired. You guys give us a sense of like the elements of a really good you know continuity plan. Tim: Sure. So I'll give you an example. I had a neighbor that was in my neighborhood that you know. We would see each other at the neighborhood community pool. Our kids would play together, you know weren't real close to them. But you know you get into the conversation of having hey, what do you do by? The way, and you know, I told him I ran a managed service provider, an IT service firm, and we manage customer networks and we keep them secure. Dave: And he goes oh, okay, okay, Well, we got a guy. Tim: We got a guy he's good, he's been with me for five years. At that point, and you know, and wow, that's great. Well, if we need anything we'll call you, right, the conversation went away and that was about 15 years later. So the guy had been working for him for 20 years managing his stuff, managing his infrastructure, managing his backups, making sure again going back to data protection and security making sure that everything was safe and secure and we could recover it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up, not him, but his wife calls me up, and his wife, you know, worked in the business for a period of time but it exited out. She called me up. She said by the way, I still have your cell phone number. I'm wondering if you're still doing IT, was their question. Dave: Okay. Tim: And I returned back and I said absolutely, I'm still doing IT. What's going on? She goes well. He was afraid to call you because he's embarrassed and we were in a very bad situation. This is a second generation builder supply company, probably doing annual revenue about $10 to $15 million in annual revenue. Dave: I said OK, what's going on? Tim: And she goes. Well, we've been ransomed and our data has been held for ransom and we don't know what to do. And our IT guy doesn't know what to do and he is really stressed out. And so the next step was is like well, I can jump in and I can help you. Let me know if you need my assistance. But these type of scenarios we've worked with before and we know how to be able to either negotiate with the criminals and negotiate the ransom to a point where you can actually pay it. If that's your only option, that's your worst option. But if we can recover your data from some sort of backup, we can go through the recovery process. Kind of summarize it we spent that particular client was not a client at the time and so they didn't have any of our backup or recovery procedures in place. They didn't have any kind of policy in place. They didn't have retention policies, they didn't have off-site backups. They had a lot of things. They didn't have offsite backups. They had a lot of things that were missing in that internal IT person's procedure. So what happened was is we came in and we immediately got on site and determined that they were using tape backup, and this is like way tape backup had expired like a long time ago. They had tape backup, they had ancient equipment, it was really. They obviously had put no money investment into their IT. Okay, the recovery for that client was about a week and a half and we were able to recover about 90% of their data. So it comes down to what we call RTO or recovery time objective. The recovery time objective is how long will it take us to recover your network based on our backup and recovery procedures? That particular customer we were able to get back up. Like I said, it was an extended period of time that they were out and they weren't able to do stuff. They were writing sales orders on paper and going back to a paper process. So they could continue their business, but we did get them back up and operational. We got them recovered and they became a customer and today we run very successful trials of the recovery system, as well as continue to make sure that their data is protected and secure. Dave: Did they end up paying the ransom they? Did not Because you got them close enough to 100%. Tim: We got them close enough where they had physical paper backup of the information that they were able to put back into the system. Dave: Okay, now help me understand the other end of that spectrum with somebody who was a current client that something like that happened to, and what was the difference as far as how long it took before you had them up and running? Tim: Well, you know, our current clients knock on wood have not experienced that. Dave: Because they've got a tighter IT infrastructure. Tim: Right, we've got the security and controls and again going back to the tool set to detect and have early detection of these type of events before they happen. So we have the security operations center that is constantly monitoring the security of the networks and the access to the networks and they look for anything that's kind of out of order. Dave: When something's out of order. Tim: then we identify it. We either isolate that system or we investigate it further and see is this a normal procedure that should be going or not? A normal procedure and a lot of this stuff is becoming part of AI now. Part of the AI capabilities is to be able to identify those things very early and stop them before they get any further into the network. So prevention is obviously a whole lot better than remediation. Right and that's what companies hire us to do is to prevent anything like that, a catastrophic event, from happening. Dave: Okay. Well, what about something that's more like a hurricane hits and wipes out their building? I assume you've had some kind of like natural disaster kind of thing where you've had to enact a continuity plan. Tim: Yep, yep, yep, absolutely so. Hurricanes here in the Gulf Coast of Texas, with the Gulf Coast of Texas being in a hurricane zone, we've had customers that their facilities have gone underwater. So one particular customer was on the south side of Houston and their facility went about five feet underwater. They, interestingly enough, had the server on a brick, thinking it was high enough. Well, it wasn't quite high enough, it was a foot off the ground, but it needed to be five feet off the ground. So that server went underwater and it was on when it went underwater. So it shorted out a lot of the components on the server, in which case, you know, they were like we don't know what to do In that scenario. We actually brought the hardware to our facility and we found out what component had failed and we replaced that component on the system and we were able to recover that system oh, wow, okay yeah, that's what we always want to do, is we want to try to use local recovery as much as possible just because of bandwidth or um, no, because of the time it takes to get the data transferred over from a replication process right. Gotcha If you're dealing with terabytes of data. You have to transfer that terabytes of data from either our data center facility or a cloud infrastructure, and that can be time consuming. That can be hours, if not days, depending upon the data. Okay, so some great stories. I mean, obviously we've had events happen. It's not uncommon for events to happen, but how we handle those events and how quickly we can recover from them is critical to a business to continue business for our customers and they can get back to business and be doing what they're doing selling things, manufacturing things, distributing things, whatever it is Okay. Dave: And are there any particular industries that you have, like you know, kind of particular expertise in where you know you would say that people in this industry might look out to you for yeah? Tim: There is. We're a very horizontal organization so we do have multiple industries that we play in. So we do play in the construction industry A lot of construction firms are in our portfolio, but also kind of an area where we've proven to have not only expertise in what we do but also the trust factor is in family offices. Dave: Oh, really Okay. Tim: Yeah, either high income families or ultra high income families. Obviously the privacy of those organizations, the privacy of the families, absolutely critical, and then the data that they're working with has high confidentiality. So, you know again, if that information was to leak out of the network or leak out of the system, then it would be a serious issue. So we've dealt with some of the highest wealth families in the world, oh interesting. Yep Obviously can't name them, but some brands that you would know, some organizations that you would know. It's amazing when I look at our portfolio, the amount of business like when I'm driving around town and I see companies around town and I'm like been in that building, worked in that customer, handled that particular customer, things like that. So yeah, you know, it's our high income or ultra high income. Families are probably a good percentage of our business. Okay, because they have multiple entities that we can support, consistent across all of those entities. So it's very standardized the way we do our business and very proceduralized so it makes it easy for them to understand. They get a quarterly report that provides them with the details and data that they know what we did for them previously and then we also forecast with a forecasting budget in the October November timeframe to provide them with a forecast so they can budget for their future IT needs and know what they're going to need replaced in the future. Dave: Okay, so was this just a case? You happened to stumble across, you know one of these family offices and then you know they run in the same circles and we're just got around that you guys were the go-to folks. Tim: I will say it has helped right In the. You know, in that particular market referrals are a huge thing. Our first family office we did stumble across. We didn't know we were working with an entity, one of their businesses, and then we, you know, they introduced us to another piece of their business and then they introduced us to the family office. You know we're having troubles with, you know, my buddy, my other firm over here, and we'd like you to kind of help in that area. So that expanded out quite a bit. And you know, again, there couldn't be. Our organization has to be the most trusted organization as a vendor that any company is going to hire, right? Sure, because you have to think about the access to the data that we have. We have access to absolutely everything. We're the administrator of your network, right? We have access to your email account. We have access to your email account. We have access to your employees' email accounts. We have access to your data, your financial data, your payroll data, your bonus data, all of the data that's out there on the network we have full access to. So you have to trust our team to the utmost in order to keep that information private, and I always approach a customer with. We're here responsible to secure and maintain that data. We're not here to look at what that data is. We don't know what that data is. Okay. Dave: Well, that's interesting here. I thought I figured you picked up that first client when you were on your mega yacht at the Cannes Film Festival. It didn't work that way. Tim: Huh, no it didn't work that way. No, it didn't work that way. I don't have a mega yacht and I wasn't at the festival, so okay, okay, yeah, not that I don't enjoy that stuff. I do have a house over at tpc, sawgrass and the players club and I do enjoy the country club life. You know I probably have the least expensive house in the neighborhood but I do enjoy the life. Dave: So nice, nice, I like it. So what do your clients tell you that makes your firm unique, like folks that have moved from another firm to yours, then they've been with you a while and I imagine you'll have a conversation hey, how's it going from your end? Are we meeting your expectations? I imagine you have conversations like that. What are they? What are? Are there any common themes? When they end up comparing you to the prior provider, they had, or how does that go? Tim: Yeah, there's a couple of scenarios there on why customers come to us and leave their current service provider right. One of the biggest things that I found with a customer that may be using a smaller service provider is they are really good at the tech stuff. They're not good at the business or the accounting side of the business, sure. So there's a delay in billing or an inaccuracy in billing and it's all of a sudden they get a stack of invoices three months later for work that was performed that they have no idea whether it got performed or what, and so there's a huge problem with the office operations of those particular service providers. So there's a pain point there and they're like I'm done, they come to me and they go, I'm done, this guy doesn't bill me. And then he bills me all at once, and then I got to try and back that information back into my financials and it totally screws up my forecast and my monthly reporting. So that's one reason that customers come to us. The other one is they don't get a response or the response is like unpredictable. So when they call in, they may get the guy right away, they may get the person like return their call the next day or three days later, so response time is really huge. I have a service desk here that is operated 24 hours a day, so our first level response is within minutes. So if you call my office, you'll get a response within minutes. If not on the first ring, it'll probably be the second or third ring. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, very rarely does any of our calls sit on hold or back up in the queue, so that's one way that customers come to us. The other way that customers come to us is that we have acquired eight other companies in the past 25 years. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, we completed our last acquisition in 2024. And we've gone out and found other service providers that may be struggling. They may not have the right business acumen to be able to run the business, so they're either marginally making money or they're losing money because they don't have the standard operating procedures that we have in place and the true business acumen to be able to run the service as a company. They've got customers, they're doing the work, they're getting paid, but they're not profitable. So we end up with firms like that that have come in through acquisitions. Dave: So yeah, I can see that and that's probably where your American Express background was helpful. Right Because you've had exposure to, you know, enterprise grade operations billing HR. Right operations billing HR right To where? Because American Express strikes me as just a well-run, well-oiled machine? Tim: Absolutely yeah, and I will say yeah, I will give them credit for that. You know it was a great run over there for 10 years and I learned not only about you know my job role and continuing to build on my experience in my job role, but how a company operates from a branding perspective, in branding your organization and keeping that brand consistent, but also in standard operating procedures and standardized deployment of systems. Right. I always refer back to not only my American Express days but the Southwest Airline days of standardization. If you can standardize the particular piece of your business that you're running, then it makes it so much easier. So we have standard software applications that we put out from a security tool set. We have standard equipment that we sell out to our customers, all on the Dell platform. My team is trained on the Dell hardware. They're trained on the tools that we use. The security tools, the management tools and all of those things integrate together to make a successful business. Dave: And again it goes back to enterprise level policies and procedures and way things that are, you know, repeating things that are successful you know, repeating things that are successful, okay Well, it sounds like like the first two parts of your success just seem mind blowing to me how you thought of this. But answer the phone when clients call and invoice timely Wow, I mean that's, that's quite a that's quite as. I mean I can't believe, to be honest, that you shared that secret sauce with me. I mean, my goodness, I mean that's. If you're not careful, there'll be other companies will start answering the phone and invoicing timely with that, you know inside knowledge. Tim: Yeah, I hope that we can improve the rest of the service providers out there, right. Dave: Sure. Tim: Competition is good. I like competition. It keeps us going. It gives us something to work towards as well. Dave: Yeah, so you talked a bit about some of the acquisitions and it sounds like you're kind of in a place where you're always open to the right acquisition. What are kind of the ideal characteristics of like the ideal acquisition? I'm guessing you're not going to try to acquire like E&Y's consulting group. I'm guessing you're looking for smaller operations than that. Tim: Yeah for sure you know. So an organization, the organizations we have acquired, have been anywhere from a half a million dollars to two million dollars in revenue. Those organizations the owners may be getting older, they may be getting ready to retire and they're not sure what they want to do with their business. What they do know is that they don't want to continue to run it Right and that it's marginally. They're making the same amount of money or less than if they had a corporate job Right. So it's sad to see, because they love what they do right and they want to place their customers in with a firm that has a similar culture, that takes care of their customers and really make sure that they're doing the right thing for their customers. So a firm that might be in a half million dollars to two million dollars in annual revenue, or the firm might be a five employee firm or smaller, and that they're getting to that point where they're kind of tired of running the organization and they'd like to transfer. They've taken care of their customers over the years and they've made relationships with those customers over the years and they like to put them with an organization that will take care of those customers and make it a seamless transition for the customer base sure, and I bet, I bet these sellers would probably be shocked if they were able to come in and look at the finances of their business like two years after you've acquired it. Dave: Right, because I'm guessing? Tim: Historically, yes, I will tell you, in probably at least half of those transactions that we've done in the either 12-month or 24-month payout period, they've made more money in that 12-month or 24-month period than they've made in the last three to four years. Dave: Oh, because that earn out ends up being a function of how much you bill over those 12 to 20. And you dramatically increase the revenues, so they're automatically getting participation in that. Absolutely. If they'd known that they would have sold to you 20 years earlier. They just wanted to work for you had their payout and then just become an employee. Right, they want to come out way ahead. Exactly, yeah. Tim: Yeah, now it's really good to see that. I mean, you know, that's one of the things that my competitors don't do. They try to come in and offer this ridiculous number for a business and then the earn out. They beat them up on the earn out and end up with anything. They end up with an initial payment and then maybe they'll get an earn out, maybe they they'll get an earn out, maybe they won't get an earn out, but they're going to tell them how horrible their organization was and how bad the customer base was and how it's not profitable and you know, it's just not how I do business. Dave: Yeah, and I'm having done. Did you say eight acquisitions? Correct, yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now. That now you have the ability Correct? Yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now that now you have the ability, the same way that I understand you know when Berkshire Hathaway acquires a at that same point. Now You've got enough success stories that you can point to those as another differentiator, right? Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're not at the Berkshire Hathaway point, but we got a couple under our belt and a couple of examples that we can refer back to and have some validation around our acquisition process. Dave: Yeah, because I'm just like, as I'm just playing through some hypothetical numbers, like you know, if a company had, say and you don't have to confirm these, but say a company was doing half a million in revenue, the profit is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, and it wouldn't surprise me if, like, two years later, you know that revenue number doubled and the profitability number like quintupled probably, and or you just you know dramatic increase. Just because you know I mean, quite frankly, you just have a better run business model but they had you're able to plug them in and so that's absolutely our goal. Tim: Yeah, and so your win isn't so much we like to see play out right. Dave: Yeah, and so your win isn't like other folks where you promise the moon and then you figure out all of these ways to not pay them. It sounds like your process is just like hey, because in your mind, being a strategic buyer, that business is worth way more to you. You know two years later, once you've done your magic to it, that business is worth way more and so you're okay paying them on an earn out, on a growing revenue number that maybe they didn't even contribute to, because at the end you know, as a I mean like on the front end you might pay, say you know, one times revenue, let's say just to pull a number out but by the time you get to the end of it, if the business is doubled and the profitability is quadrupled, you really ended up paying only one third or one half revenue. And so all of a sudden, whether you know found a way to squeeze them to where the imputed value you paid was one third annual billings or it was half of annual billings really doesn't matter, because the real value for you is like, year three after the earn out. You've got this great profitable book of business that you know you didn't pay much for in comparison to what it's worth two, three years later in your enterprise. Is that right that's? correct, yep, absolutely but the reason you didn't pay much, though, in in all honesty, was because the business wasn't very valuable. Tim: And it really wasn't right. Dave: Yeah, I mean they had owner value. Tim: Street value had a zero valuation on it right. Dave: Yeah, they had probably owner concentration risk. They may have had customer concentration risk, poor processes systems. You know the type of company that you know. There weren't people beating their door down to buy their because, effectively, you're just buying a job. If you bought that business, all right. How much do you pay for a job? Most people don't want to pay very much for a job. Now, what do you look for in an employee, just like you know the most techie person you can find. Is that really all that matters? Tim: No, it's not necessarily you know the most skilled technical guy out there, right? So one of the strategies that we have and maybe I shouldn't share that because my competitors may hear it, but we are a strong supporter of our veterans, so we have veterans that work in our organization. We're probably a 75 percent veteran organization. Dave: Oh, wow, ok yeah. Tim: Yeah, and we enjoy that. They come to us with technical skills and abilities but we build upon those we really do Right and we develop those particular individuals to be much better at what they do. But having our veterans on our team has been hugely successful from a reliability standpoint, as well as a dedication standpoint and the understanding to be able to follow orders as given, right Okay. So that's how we've been able to do that and our retention rate is extremely high. I would say that our culture is very good. We're very family oriented. We're very you know when work has to get done, work has to get done. But we also realize that the family comes first and there's family things that come in the way that need to be addressed. Right. You can't. Your kid gets sick. You have to go take care of your kid, you can't be at your job, right? Those kinds of things and being able to balance that. That was one of my challenges at American Express. I was a new father in my ninth year at American Express and I realized that, even though it was written in the book and preached on the values of the company, when it came time to actually exercise that it wasn't as flexible as I had hoped I was like you know. This is another reason I kind of need to get out. I need to raise my daughter and I need to, you know, and I plan to have other children. So family values and longevity of employees, it makes a huge difference you have to think about. If you have an IT guy in your organization and they're only there for a year or two years, they've gained a little bit of knowledge about your business and how it operates and what computer systems are, what systems and software you're using in your business. They get intellectual knowledge right that walks out the door when that employee leaves or you release that employee. Dave: Yeah. Tim: With maintaining our staffing. I've got people on my team that have been with us 15 plus years and they have a history of our customers that is like you can't buy that right. Sure, you've got that knowledge of that network, of when it was built, like we've built some of these companies, so we know it from day one and what we've done to different applications and how we've modified them over the years. So just having that knowledge be maintained with your service provider is huge, so, and we can go back and look at you know, oh, here's a ticket from 15 years ago that I worked, that I resolved this issue, wow. Dave: And how do you know? You know, cause it sounds like the company has been growing both organically and through acquisition. How do you know when it's time to hire? Do you wait till? Like people are working a hundred hours a week in complaining and quitting. Tim: Is that? Dave: the point you say oh geez, we probably should get somebody hired and we should probably hire in a hurry. The first person we come across Is that your growth strategy? Tim: for your people? No, definitely not, definitely not. So we have a lot of KPIs in the business that we can measure the performance of our organization, and mainly that's around resource utilization. Okay, so we have a lot of tools in our toolbox that give us an indication of when an employee is overloaded or when they have too much on their plate, so we can shuffle that within the business and be able to see who's got the workload and who doesn't have the workload, be able to move things around within the organization. But then we can also look at our utilization levels and, number one, make sure that we're profitable with those utilization levels but also staff appropriately to those utilization levels and know when it's time right. It's like okay, we acquired a company with five big customers and we didn't get any employees with it. Do we have the bandwidth or do we need to increase our staffing? So we really have a lot of KPIs around measuring that to make sure that we don't stress our existing resources and we balance it out that our people are profitable but they're not overworked. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then how do your new employees come to you? Is it referrals from other employees mostly, or no, we do have. Tim: I sit on the board for one of the technical colleges and I use that technical college as our you know more or less recruiting platform. We find the best of the students. You know the kids that are shining. You know they kids that are shining. You know they're showing up on time for their classes, they're interested in developing their skills and they're really, you know, the top students in the tracks right Okay. Yeah, and then we recruit them out of there. We recruit them in at our first level, our entry level, on our service desk team and we build them up in our organization over a period of time, so lots of opportunity for them to grow once they come into our organization. Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great way to bring new folks on. You can train them the way you want trained with your processes and systems. Tim: And then keep them right. Keep them you can give them a growth path and keep them so that they can be. They can get better at what they do, get a higher compensation, be successful in life. There's nothing makes me happier as an owner than to see an employee grow from where they came in the day they started with us to being successful in life. Buying a home buying a car, having a family, all of those kinds of things right, those are really important for me. They're kind of like energy for me to see a person develop over the course of their career with our organization. Dave: Some of my guests. When I ask them, like what's the most satisfying or gratifying part of the job, it seems to fall into two categories. It's either the satisfaction they get from serving the customer or the satisfaction they get from watching their team grow. It sounds like you're probably more on that watching the team grow and that and then they. I think it was Herb Keller that had the idea of take care of your employees, and your employees will take care of your customers Absolutely. Is that right, that your satisfaction comes more from taking care of the employees, and then the happy customers are just an expected outcome? Tim: Yeah, that is a result, right, absolutely. So you know, when I started started this organization, I started in the spare bedroom of my house. Oh okay, I had two analog phone lines. One was for my phone and the other one was a backup phone line, but it was also used for my dial-up internet to be able to help, oh wow, remote into into customers. Right, and looking back, I walk in now to our operations center and we have a pretty impressive organization and a pretty impressive facility that we own. And walking in now I'm like, holy crap, what the heck did I build? Dave: right that's awesome. That's super satisfying right, super yeah I can imagine well I cannot believe how the time is flying by. I always tell my guests it's like the fastest hour of their life is being on the podcast. Tim: How are we going to fill that hour, Dave? Dave: Yeah, I know. So I've got just two questions just to wrap up. If you had a time machine and could go back and give some advice to like your 25 or 30 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Tim: Ooh, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What do I give myself? I probably would have started my organization sooner. Dave: Bingo. That's the answer that 90% of the people have. Tim: Yeah, I would have started my organization sooner. I needed that enterprise expertise, but I would have started it sooner. Dave: Sure, yeah, it's yeah, because the funny thing when you're an employee and if you follow the career path that your family suggested is actually they think it's a low risk, safe career path. But it's actually a high risk path because you have a customer concentration issue, meaning you have one customer, your employer and, as you learned three or four times that if they decide they don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. They don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. So it's actually less risky to have you know, even if you're just doing like consulting and all yours, just like a contract employee working 10 hours a week for four different companies, doing whatever. I find that that's far less risky, because if one of the companies doesn't need you, then you know you've only lost a quarter of your revenue. Tim: Yeah, I call it a scenario of I get hired multiple times a month. I hope I never get fired, but occasionally I get fired. But it should have an impact. I like it Well. Dave: so here's my last question. So you're a naturalized Houstonian, like I, am Tex-Mex or barbecue. Tim: Ooh, I like both really well. But yeah, tex-mex thing. If I don't have Mexican at least once a week, I'm going through withdrawals okay, so Tex-Mex? Dave: yeah, now, one person answered that question. I borrowed this from somebody else. One person answered it. They told me about a Mexican restaurant that has great brisket and they make like brisket enchiladas and brisket tacos and brisket quesadillas and he said that was like the best of both worlds there. And I thought, boy, that sounds like it. Tim: Yeah, there's nothing better than a brisket taco, for sure. Dave: That is awesome, I make some of those myself. That is great. Well, hey, as we wrap up, is there anything? I did not ask you that you wish I had Tim. Tim: No, I'd like to close by saying I shared with my team today and I'm always trying to come up with something that I share with my team every day and today I came up with solutions as a defense system designed to protect the most critical assets of your business the data. I like to just kind of close with solutions I as a defense system designed to protect your most critical assets your data, think about think about if your business lost access to its data, regardless of the circumstance. If they lost access to the data, what would that do to your organization? That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from happening. Dave: Yeah, Charlie Munger talks about the number one key to recognizing a great business opportunity is finding a company who's riding a wave that's only going to grow and increase over time, Because really all they have to do is just stay on the wave. Well, that certainly has applied to you, right? Because 25 years ago you probably had some companies that said ah our data is not that important. You know, I've got a Rolodex with all my clients' phone number and email, and you know, so the importance of data has only increased during that time, right? Tim: Oh yeah, it's dramatically increased yeah. Dave: Well, it's also. Tim: Everybody trusts that data will be there when they're ready to use it. Dave: Yeah, well, and also the other fact is digitization right 25 years ago, most of their data may not have been digital, it may have been analog or paper or whatever, but now virtually everything is digitized, which makes the data even more important. Tim: I go back 35 years in this industry and when I go back and look at it, I replaced the inner office envelope. Oh yeah, people would type up a memo on a typewriter, put it in an inner office envelope and put whoever was going to and put it in their outbox and the mail guy would come by and pick it up. I replaced that guy. That's true? Dave: Well, that is awesome. Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time. This has really been fun and you've really given me kind of an insight into what makes a really well-run IT services firm operate. So I really appreciate your time. Tim: Yeah, I appreciate your time as well, Dave. Always good to chat with you and good to catch up and appreciate your time today as well. Thanks so much. Dave: All, right, yeah, you too. Special Guest: Tim Loney.

Today Dr. Dave and Dr. Liz welcome Alec Atkinson, founder and CEO of Harvest React, to discuss side hustles for married couples. Alec shares insights on starting and managing side hustles, the importance of financial freedom, and the impact on relationships. He provides valuable advice on avoiding scams and ensuring both partners are on the same page. The discussion also highlights success stories and the potential benefits of e-commerce side hustles. About Alec Atkinson: Alec Atkinson is the founder and CEO of HarvestReact, a social media marketing and e-commerce company he founded in June 2021. HarvestReact helps people thrive in e-commerce, having hundreds of clients in its flagship program. Before his entrepreneurialjourney, Alec served as a missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints inChicago, Illinois, from 2019 to 2021. Alec graduated from BYU in Business Strategy this pastDecember. Alec also helps oversee the deployment of capital for two niche hedge funds and a family office in the private banking world. Insights: Alec: You can feel encouraged to pursue a side hustle, as it can be a great opportunity. Be careful and vigilant, seek best practices, and educate yourself thoroughly. Once you're ready, dive in and enjoy the journey. It might be challenging, but it will be either rewarding or a valuable learning experience. Find the benefit and joy in everything you do. Dave: You might find the idea of side hustles for couples intriguing, especially if you enjoy thinking about new ideas and taking them to the next level. While the creative process can be exciting, it's important to remember that it's not for everyone. People have different personalities and risk tolerances, and side hustles can sometimes cause stress and strain relationships. It's crucial to be on the same page with your partner, do your homework, and work as a team to ensure a successful and enjoyable experience. Liz: There are ways to pursue a side hustle and to do it fairly safely, where you can really minimize some of the risk. If it is in someone's heart and mind to really find ways to access extra money and finances because you have a dream for your family, I'm all about it and it sounds like Harvest React would really be something to look into. Alec Atkinson Links: https://harvestreact.com/ Email: alec@harvestreact.com   Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: Strongermarriage.org Podcast.stongermarriage.org Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/strongermarriage/Facebook Marriage Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/strongermarriagelife/ Dr. Dave Schramm:http://drdaveschramm.comhttp://drdavespeaks.com Dr. Liz Hale:http://www.drlizhale.com

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Jane Howze, founder and managing director of executive search firm Alexander Group. Jane shares her remarkable transition from commercial lending and law into this male-dominated industry. Her insight into culture, growth, and talent acquisition provided invaluable counsel for aspiring leaders. We explore nuanced career shifts and hiring new teams, emphasizing integrity's strategic importance. Jane highlights fact-checking credentials for ethics and vetting, referencing a shocking case of credential fabrication. Our conversation sheds light on work evolutions, from mentorship changes to communication innovations over the years.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jane Howze shares her career transition from a commercial lending officer and lawyer to the founder and managing director of the Alexander Group, a top retained executive search firm. We discuss the early challenges Jane faced in a male-dominated industry and her experiences at Korn Ferry, emphasizing her success in executive search. Jane and I reminisce about shared history at Korn Ferry, including nostalgic and entertaining stories from the early days of our careers. li>Jane emphasizes the importance of integrity during career transitions, particularly when handling professional references and avoiding misrepresentation. We touch on the strategic advantages of honesty and the repercussions of fabricating qualifications, as highlighted by a CEO's false claim of a computer science degree. The episode covers the evolution of workplace dynamics, mentorship, and the practical advice Jane offers for aspiring paid board members. Crazy industry tales are recounted, such as an adventure with a $700 car in LA and setting realistic client expectations in executive search scenarios. Jane provides insights into networking and career strategy, especially relevant during the Great Resignation and for those aiming for public company board positions. We explore Dave's innovative client communication strategies and the impact of networking, as well as the significance of crafting a board-specific resume. The episode concludes with a light-hearted exchange about "tours of duty" within a firm, comparing it to conscription, and reflects on the demanding but rewarding nature of our work experiences. Contact Details Email (jhowze@thealexandergroup.com) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhowze1950/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About The Alexander Group GUEST Jane HowzeAbout Jane TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today was a very special guest. Jane Howes is the founder and managing director of one of the world's top retained executive search firms, the Alexander Group. Jane was actually my boss two different times about 25 years ago. As we talked about on the episode, she was both the greatest boss I'd ever had and my least favorite boss I ever had, sometimes in the same day. Jane has a wealth of knowledge on all aspects of culture building all aspects of culture building, firm building, growing a firm, picking the right people. We also took some stories down memory lane back from the days we worked together and when the firm was very young. This episode has a lot of great information for any executive or business owner who has any hiring responsibilities. Finally, if you've ever considered becoming a board member, jane has some great insights and tips on how to start your career as a paid board member. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Jane, welcome to the podcast. Jane: Well, Dave, it's wonderful to be with you. Dave: This is so. I was so excited for this, so I think I've told you this before. Jane, you were my all-time favorite boss and my least favorite boss, sometimes in the same day. Jane: And probably sometimes within 10 minutes of each other right. Dave: Perhaps, but you're the only boss I ever had twice. So I had left. I was gone a couple of years and then I was in a spot where I needed some contract work. This was before Uber, so I couldn't just go start driving my car around and you all were gracious enough to have me come back and it was wonderful. But I just want to thank you for all the opportunities you've given me, all that you've taught me. I've learned. I learned so much about business, communication, ethics, client service, so that served me the rest of my career. So thank you, jane. Jane: Dave, when you came back the second time, I was like our ship has come in. Dave Spray is back for more punishment, more reward, and I just feel really honored that our paths have crossed, because you could have been a great, you were a great recruiter, could have and still could. Dave, You're the best. Dave: Well, that's very nice of you to say so. Yeah, I enjoyed a lot of my time at the firm, so where are you calling in from today? Jane: I am in our Houston office today. As you know, we have offices in California, new York and DC. As you know, we have offices in California, new York and DC, but I will work out of Houston until it gets too impossibly hot to work out of Houston, as you know, and we'll head west. Excellent, well, that sounds great. Dave: Now, are you a native Houstonian? Are you one of those rare people born here that lives here? Jane: No, what's the saying? I got here as soon as I could, but I am from Birmingham Alabama and went to college in Memphis, tennessee, and my roommate from college was Houstonian and back in the day, you know, the Galleria had just been built and Houston was just this huge boomtown and I was glad to come here back in the infancy almost. Dave: Wow, and what did you do for work when you got here? Jane: I worked as. Are your listeners mainly in Houston, or are they scattered all over? They're all over the country in Houston or are they scattered all over? They're all over the country. Yeah Well, I worked for the largest bank in Houston and I was a commercial lending officer and attended law school at night. And then the story goes I practiced law and I left Houston and went to California and practiced law and then came back. So you know, kind of roads lead back to Houston. Dave: Ultimately, Okay, and then what? Did you just like have a dream or a vision or something that you needed to leave the law business and get into executive search? What prompted that? Jane: Well, a lot of practicing law, as I'm sure your listeners know, a lot of it is very compliance oriented, very regulatory oriented, and I'm not a regulatory kind of person. And I had gone from being a commercial loan officer, where my job was to deal with people all day, to being stuck in a law library reading compliance regulations. Oh my goodness, this is not good, this is not my personality. And read an article in Fortune magazine about Korn Ferry, the largest executive search firm in the world, and it was like the proverbial bolt of lightning went off. Dave and I was oh my gosh, I would be fabulous at this. I need to go work for Korn Ferry. And they had an opening back in Houston. So I left the practice of law in California and joined Korn Ferry in Houston. Dave: Wow, and you were, and I'm guessing that you were one of many women at the firm. I'm sure, right, this was the 80s executive search. Jane: Let's see there were 200 partners and two women, and the minorities were all in the Hong Kong office. Dave: Okay, I mean diversity was achieved, but there were like six men in the Hong Kong office. Jane: Okay, I mean diversity was achieved, but there were like six men in the Hong Kong office and that is not a knock on Korn Ferry that the executive search business was oh, we want to give a CEO search to somebody we've served in the military with, or somebody that we go hunting with, or somebody on our bowling, you know that kind of thing, and women just weren't in that place then. So it was definitely an early time and a good time to get into executive search. In retrospect at the time it seemed a little challenging. Dave: And you. So how did it go, did you? Was it all you hoped it would be? Jane: You know, the minute I started recruiting I was happy I knew I had found my calling. Before I got into search, I had always been one of the people that said I'd love to introduce you to this person, I'd love to fix you up with this person, and so I finally got in a position that you got paid for it which is great by two partners from KPMG who wanted to do recruiting of C-suite positions for their KP clients, and K wouldn't let them do it. So they formed Korn Ferry, and so I was lucky. It was kind of the early days of Korn Ferry they were maybe 15 years old by the time I joined them and global, so it was a really great move to learn the search business. Dave: You weren't there too long, right Before you felt the need to unfurl your own wings. Jane: Yes, that is true. I was wow. There are not many women partners here and I know I'm good at this and I know I can be successful at this. So, dave, I hooked up with another woman at Corn Ferry and the other big search firm is Russell Reynolds and we were like, well, let's start our own search firm, and I don't know that I would have done it by myself. But we started, really got going in 19, which is 40 years ago now. I feel like I'm the oldest living person alive still doing it. But we started and back then you didn't have the internet to do research and our first client was Grant Thornton the public accounting firm and the number two person at Grant met us and we went walking in their offices and there were no women audit partners then, or tax partners, and we went strolling in and he goes. Well, I believe in you all and I want you to help me build the firm. I'm going to do acquisitions, I'm going to do partner searches, I'm going to do campus recruiting, and we rode along for over 50 searches and practice acquisitions in our first years, which made it really a great foundation upon which to build. Dave: Oh, that's awesome. That is awesome, and that's been 40 years ago. Jane: Yeah, Dave, I probably tried to recruit you back in the days you were at Arthur Anderson. You were probably one of my recruits, even not knowing it. Dave: Yeah, you never know, you never know. And one of the is that when you started, the billing by the hour approach, or did that come later. Did you do that from the beginning? Jane: We started because, having been with a law firm where you're basically selling your time, we thought, well, we're going to be a different kind of search firm, we're going to bill by the hour. And it proved to be a great thing. And, dave, we were so cheap that people would go, you'll do, you'll take over all our campus recruiting for $50 an hour. And we were like, oh great, well, here's 10 colleges we don't want to go. You guys go, just do our recruiting for probably 10, 12, 13 years, which made it challenging because not everybody wants to fill out timesheets to the 10th of an hour, which we were. Dave: Yeah, no, but I remember when we would talk to potential clients, that was part of the pitch and the fact that they could do we could do all a card search for them. It's wrong as the source candidates, you know, we would just do that. And the other thing I loved was the independence that gave, because I know there were times that right late in the search we had three finalists and they would say, hey, we identified somebody on our own, can we throw them into the mix? And of course we were very receptive because we were just paid by the hour, like we didn't care. Whereas I think a lot of other firms, especially if there was a success fee component you know, would be very resistant to that, so I always thought that was great. What caused you to move away from that? Jane: Just the cumbers of it or just the greater tendency to do fixed. But you know, we started out doing lower level positions and as we built our reputation we were, frankly, we were leaving. Frankly we were leaving. We weren't great timekeepers and we kind of thought, well, let's still provide a win for our clients Because the big search firms you are obligated to pay the fee. Even if they find their own candidate, you're obligated to pay the fee. So what we decided was we will do a fixed fee. We will tell the client at the beginning of the search this is what your fee is. So it's not really tied to the compensation but the complexity of the search. So, for example, if we were doing a search in Fargo, north Dakota, in December, that might be a harder search. You know, with the pain in the bottom 10% of compensation ranges, that might be a harder search than doing a search in December in Florida, for example, or with the time. So we just pivoted I think it was in 2001 that we'll give you a fixed fee for the search, but it will be less usually than a third of total comp. So even if you put your own candidate into the process, you're still paying for it, but you're paying for a process, not a candidate. So we still had a competitive advantage. And it's interesting. Here we are today, in 2024, and some of the other search firms are now doing what we do. Some of our biggest competitors are going. Well, we'll give you a fixed fee if the Alexander Group's giving you a fixed fee. So it's interesting how it's turned out. Dave: But you were a disruptor in a number of ways in the industry. Jane: I mean it didn't seem like it at the time but now that I see other firms doing the same thing to try and compete effectively, they don't want to. They'd rather just get a third. But one of the things we tell our clients when they retain us is for your budgeting purposes, you're going to know how much the fee is and we'll have no reason to present the most expensive candidates because our fee is already in your budget and we're just going to be on your side of the table trying to find the best person at the most cost-effective salary compensation package. So I think it's a win and it's something that has worked for the clients. And you know the thing that and I know you know this we said it when you were there and we still say it 85% of our business every year is the same people and we're really proud of that because most search firms their repeat business is 6%. And why is that? And you know we laugh and say, well, we have an unstable product. You know and you know there's so many things that can go wrong when you're dealing with people, but we try and provide very I want to say a really strong relationship focus. I mean I tell clients. I don't want to just see you one time. We want a long-term relationship with you and that's really important to us and I think it makes a difference and I think the clients feel like we really care about being part of their team and that's really important to us. Dave: Yeah, that's great and I did experience that, and life's just more fun when you have happy repeat customers and clients Instead of people you try to squeeze for every last dollar for one time transaction. Jane: And you're well. I hope we don't have to see each other again. Right, you know it's like no, we want to be around for the long haul and I know you know this because but our first client from Grant Thornton, who's now 88 years old, is still a friend and a client and a mentor of the firm and we wouldn't really have it any other way. That means a lot to us. Dave: You know, one of the most valuable lessons you taught me was when I went into your office after I worked there about a year and a half and I just said, jane, I don't think this is for me and I don't know what I'm going to do, but I just want to set expectations. And you said hey, as long as you continue to do good work, you can stay. You know, as long as you want, right, I mean, just keep doing good work. And then the other thing you told me do you remember what you told me? You said, and it was very, it was good advice, but it was also clever on your end too. What did you tell me? Jane: I told you, no one will remember the job that you did, but everyone will remember how you leave. Dave: Yep, yep, that's so true and it's such simple advice, right? Because you work someplace for years and then all you really have to do to even make up for mistakes you made is just end on a really high note, right, you could have been a average employee, but just end on a high note and they'll all say, oh yeah, that change, she was great. She was great. We loved having her around. Jane: No, I remember that Because I mean I tell people I was not the best lawyer in the world, but I left, left. Like how do I transition my clients? How do I help train the new person? Can I be available after I'm gone? If I need to come in on a Saturday to help out? And I tell people when I make speeches no one will. You could be really bad at your job, but you can be a good, a great departing employee if you aren't a current employee. And that is just so true. And you know today, you never know when you're going to need a reference. Today, with everything so transparent, even if you don't give somebody as a reference, people will look on LinkedIn and say, oh well, I'm going to call this person and see how Betty was as an employee. So you're going to be found out, good or bad. So you might as well be the best ex-employee you can possibly be. Dave: I love it. Yeah, I know one of the things we did when I was with the team was we would do reference checks, and I think we would oftentimes do them even before the offer was extended. I forget. I think we did it both ways. Sometimes we did it subject to reference checks, sometimes we did the references first and I was always surprised. Every so often you'd find out people lied on their resume or exaggerated. But I imagine with social media and such, that's probably all gone away, right, nobody tries to get away with that anymore, I suppose do they? Jane: You know, dave, it's really interesting. Somebody asked me the other day what surprises you the most. That happens today, that happened 20 years ago. And the answer is exactly as you say. People still try and fudge. They'll say, well, I received an MBA when they did the coursework but didn't write the final paper. Or they'll be credit short of a college degree. Just last month we weren't at the final stages. But we try and check educational background and someone had on their resume they had on their LinkedIn received a bachelor's degree. And we check and there's no bachelor's degree. And they say, oh well, but I was only four hours short and I go. But four hours short does not a degree make, and I'm always surprised that. And people will have maybe a year gap where they're unemployed. And it's okay with COVID and all the changes that we have all gone through as a country, as a business community, it's okay that you have gaps, but it's not okay to misrepresent the gaps and sometimes you'll have people go. Oh well, you know, it was during COVID, I'll just kind of fudge it a little bit. And you're always going to be found out almost every single time, and I'm always surprised that people still do it, though, but even at the highest levels, dave, they still do it Like even like at the C-suite level, you mean. Yeah, at the C-suite level. You know, I wrote an article as a commentator for MSNBC 10 years ago because the CEO of, I think, hp said he had a degree in computer science, but it was a degree in history, you know, which is a pretty big difference. And I wrote an article saying and this was even before the proliferation of social media 10 years ago and I said you will be found out. This guy did, and it was very public and it was he got fired from H. It was a big deal and I was like do not let it stand. If you fudged, go fix it, fess up. Dave: The irony was, if he was, you know, at that level, he probably had graduated at least 25 years earlier. So the irony was his degree had no nothing to do with his current level. Yeah, nobody cared, except that he lied about it. If somebody lies about something that can be checked. What are they lying about that can't be checked, right? Jane: Exactly Well. And the other thing is, when you think about somebody's personal branding, wouldn't it make a great story? Hey guys, I don't know. I had a history degree and look how good I am. I'm running HP now and I had to leave the hospital. But to say he had a computer science degree. I mean it made no sense. But people do that still and I always tell people I know some of your listeners are small businesses where they don't have huge departments but one of the most important things you can do is do background checks and reference checks, unofficial and official, because people they never will stop doing it and no matter how many commentators tell them don't do it, they do it. Dave: Well, you know, I guess it's time for me to go update my LinkedIn. For all these years, jane, I've been telling the world that I was the CEO of the Alexander Group and you worked for me, so I think I'd better go fix that before it backfires. Jane: Well, you know, people always say how did you get the name the Alexander Group? And we, truly the name Alexander kind of has a masculine kind of connotation and you know, even when you were with us, dave, we would get calls once a week going Mr Alexander, please, yeah, and so so. So I think you just, I think not only did you say you were CEO, I think your name you've been passing off your name is David Alexander, right. Dave: That could very well be and I learned so much about presentation because, you know, when I was there, a lot of the the recruiters were young, you know, fresh out of college. The recruiters were young, you know, fresh out of college, and you know you and John did a great job of mentoring these folks and developing them. But it was always so interesting that, you know, we had a pretty casual environment and back then you would leave a message for a candidate and they would call back the main switchboard. I don't know we've, I don't think we even had direct dial numbers back then and they'd call back and switchboard. I don't know, I don't think we even had direct dial numbers back then. And they'd call back and here's this scruffy 23-year-old unshaven guy wearing, you know, birkenstocks to work, named you know Tom, let's say. And when the person would call back and they'd say, yeah, tom Smith, please you train the receptionist to say, oh, hold on. May I ask Mr Smith, you know who's calling you? know, just to I mean there's no harm in saying Mr Smith because that is his name, but why say, oh yeah, let me see if Tommy Boy's you know done, you know done having his afternoon tequila shot, right, I mean there's no use in. Jane: No, it was all about. It was all about the, you know, because we were so small in Scruffy and the other thing we would do would be to say I'd train the receptionist to go never say Mr Smith is not at his desk. Dave: Right, he is not at his desk. Jane: Right, he is not in his office and I will have one of his assistants call you back. Dave: Nice, nice, one of them. I like that. Jane: I know, I mean, you know, I just am blushing, thinking about what we did to make ourselves sound substantial. And there's Tommy Smith back in the back office, sound asleep at his desk, you know. Dave: Exactly. Jane: And sometimes I go, oh well, and sometimes you know candidates would call back. Well, is Tommy Smith calling me? And if I happen to be at the office late at night, you know some of it is the smoke and mirrors of making yourself sound like you're Well, I remember when I would like when you or John would be like traveling. Dave: I would try to book the mother BD. Right, you're interviewing folks in Kansas City, what other companies are headquartered in Kansas City or just other things. And one of the things that the things I did that I learned a lot about this is that even though you and John were based in Houston, if I was trying to set up Houston appointments, I would act as if you and John were based in San Francisco, like I'd say oh, you know Miss Howes will be in, you know she'll be in Houston for two days next week. You know she'll. she won't be in the San Francisco office, she'll be in the Houston office for two days Now the reality is you were going to be there for two weeks, but you were going to be there for those two days and it was what's the biblical saying you can't be a prophet in your own homeland. And I think it's still true to this day that expert from out of town and they rearrange their schedule for the person from out of town. Jane: Well, you know, there's a Buddhist saying that says the visitor from afar brings knowledge and I like that. Dave: I like that. Jane: And you know, sometimes I get asked to talk to college students about how our young people, about how do you find jobs, and my clients, kids, want to know how do we find a job. And I don't I'm not a career counselor but what I tell them is the further like if you went to NYU, say you're going to have more success calling NYU alums in Houston trying to get them to help you than you will in New York City. If you're a University of Houston graduate and you're in San Francisco, there's probably only 20 of you in the whole town and all people are hardwired to help people who come from afar. If there's a limited population and it goes kind of with that thing of being unique, like you know how many people come from Houston to San Francisco for a meeting. 20 years ago I mean it happened, but it wasn't every day that a head of human resources got that phone call right. Dave: In my business that it's easier for me to get an appointment in Syracuse, New York, if I'm going to be up there for business anyway. It's easier to get that appointment than it is with somebody in Houston, Because in Houston they're just like I'm busy this week, you know. Call me next month, you know, because you're so available. It's just like it seems like if you're meeting somebody for dinner, the closer the restaurant, the more likely you are. The closer the restaurant, the more likely you are to be late, or the more likely I am to be late, because if I'm driving 30 minutes I'm going to allow 45 for traffic and stuff, but if it's three minutes away, I'm going to leave two minutes before the dinner and then exactly a stoplight pot ad and then the parking lot's full and yeah no, it is, but it is something about the further something is away. Jane: And I remember one of the ways I built up our and some of our first clients. Most of our first clients were California companies because California had more. They were more used to women in doing C-suite searches. But you know, I was in California every two weeks for probably 30 years and I would call and go well, I'm from Houston, I'm a woman-owned search firm, I'm going to be in LA, can I come see you? And we got a lot of great clients like Wells Fargo, warner Brothers, yeah, a lot of McKesson company, because they were like oh, the visitor from afar they're coming to, they're coming from Houston and they're women in the search business Great, they're coming from Houston and they're women in the search business Great, you know. And I I spent a lot of time where people would go well, I have time tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock and I'm going to be there. And I quickly hung up the phone and called United and called Continental Airlines and started booking that airline ticket as fast as I could. Dave: Yeah, I do remember my listeners love stories. What are some stories of just interesting or amusing or candidate screw up things that come to mind where, yeah, I don't know a candidate showed up intoxicated or a candidate showed up and forgot to put pants on that day, you know. I don't know a candidate showed up intoxicated, or a candidate showed up and forgot to put pants on that day. Jane: You know, I remember way back in the early days one of my first big searches was a senior lending officer for a regional bank here and the candidate was great and it was. I was so excited and so I called the CEO of the bank after the interview and I said Rex, how did the interview go? He goes, jane, he didn't come. I said he didn't come. What the hell? Why didn't he come? He said, oh, it was okay. He drove through the teller window and passed a note to the teller to pass to me that he wouldn't. He changed his mind, you know, and you just go, who drives through the go in for the interview but drives through and says will you give this note, handwritten note on a scrap of paper I'm not coming. And so that was kind of the early days. A second story, and I mean it's crazy what we did back in the early days but one client wanted us to live in LA and take over all their staffing for it. This is when we were hourly billing and we were pretty cheap and they said, yeah, we'll get your room at the Biltmore Hotel in downtown LA. We want you there for a month and we're trying to figure out how to save money, because back then, you know, we just wanted to be and so we bought Dave a $700 car so we wouldn't have rental car charges, and we called it the gray ghost. It was a delta 80 and we drove this car and I am embarrassed to tell you, and I hope your listeners will think we were really creative rather than really cheesy but when we were done with the car, when we finished the search and the client actually is still a client in other iterations we just left the car at a Friday's Marina Del Rey and that was it, because it was on its last legs, you know, and we just that was it. We just left the keys in the car and that was it. Dave: That was it. We just left the keys in the car and that was it. You know you reminded me of something. A good friend of mine owes you his job because you just reminded me of something and I know I learned this from you. So it's really good friend of mine. Cpa, a classic, stereotypical CPA, introverted, not very outgoing but very technically sound, and he was working at a public accounting firm and he was kind of stuck at the senior level. He couldn't get promoted to manager, which usually happens after like five years. And there's a firm in town that I knew a guy there and they were looking for like a first year audit manager. So he was perfect for it. Looking for like a first year audit manager, so he was perfect for it. And so the three of us met for a drink at Papa Do's on Westheimer, over in the Galleria. But I told him ahead of time. I said Pete, he is. I'm just going to tell you right now, he's not Mr Personality. If you're looking for a glad handing, you know, outgoing salesman type, he's not the right guy for you. And so, of course, what did he say? No, we're not looking for a salesman, we're looking for a manager, right, somebody technically solid. So we met and afterwards we had a good time. And afterwards I said so what'd you think? And he said I'm glad you told me that he wasn't Mr Personality, because I was kind of prepared for it. And he did the same thing when they met with the people at the firm. He told them on the front end hey, this guy's not Mr Personality, but he's really smart. I think he can do the job. And 30 years later he's a senior partner at this Houston CPA firm and I know I learned that line from you. Now let me just tell you this person's not Mr Personality. Does that sound like something you might've said for? Jane: Yeah, well, you know what I mean. Part of what I look at a recruiter's job, an executive search person's job, is you tell the client what's wrong or what's missing, because they're smart and they're going to get it themselves. And if you tell them, you are adding value, you're being a consultant and you've managed expectations. So when we do a search, we write a paper, basically a report. These are the things that might not exactly fit, but these are the things that overcome what you are looking for. And which reminds me of one more story. I remember doing a audit partner search, for I think it was Grant Thornton up in St Louis and it was in Chicago actually, and so, as you recall, we would fly to the cities, park ourselves at a hotel restaurant and just sit there and make that our office. It was pretty soon, and so I got to O'Hare sitting down and my 3 o'clock appointment comes up at one o'clock and I go buddy, you're here a little bit early. He said, oh, yeah, yeah, I've heard great things about the Alexander group and I'm just going to sit at this next table and watch you in action. And I'm like, well, buddy, that's just not going, not gonna. And mentally I'm thinking well, buddy is no longer a candidate, but he wanted to sit and listen in on every other interview so he could get some good tips of how to interview himself, and anyway not a bad idea if he had just simply kept that information to himself. Right and not done it when I'd already started the interview. You know, I mean, I kind of lost two candidates right in one sitting. You know, you can't make this stuff up. Dave: That is something. I got a question somewhat related to search. Some of this conversation is about executive search. Right, we probably should have at least maybe a third of it about search. What about board members? So you know, I've got clients who ran, built, ran, sold $50 million revenue successful privately held companies, sold $50 million revenue, successful privately held companies. And they maybe think, yeah, I might like to be serve on a board. Now for somebody to be on a public company board do they need public company experience? Jane: You know, Dave, I think the question as I'm kind of rounding third base in my career and a lot of my peers are in their 60s and they're finishing, They've sold their private company, they retired from a public company. They, for whatever reason, they say well, you know, I'm going to retire, I'm going to, I want to be on a board. Can I get on a board? My answer is always this yes. However, it's a question of how much time do you want to spend to get on your first board? Once you get on one board, even if you're a private company executive, can you get on a public board, Asterisk, if you're willing to really work hard on at that. The average board tenure is 10 years. Board positions don't really turn over that much of a healthy company. So people get on a board and especially if it's a public board, there's incentive comp, there's options. It's not a hard gig for a lot of companies. So the answer is yes. And then what do you do if you want to get on a board? If you want to get on a board? Probably 70 percent of all board positions are not gotten through search firms. Does that surprise you? Dave: Maybe, yeah, maybe some. It's the network, the network of the other board members. Jane: Yeah, yeah, because people will say, oh well, I know somebody I'm going to, I'll go back to my UT alum group and see if they, you know, kind of knows around there. Or I'll see if, oh, I know a guy that works at Goldman Sachs, Maybe he knows somebody. I know a friend that's a part retiring from Ernst Young and I'll ask her. And so there's a lot of you know, with the call for diversity, search firms are becoming more involved but and doing more and 30% is still a lot to be putting out to search. But so the things that if any of your listeners are interested, I tell people, If any of your listeners are interested, I tell people, do a board resume. A board resume is different than a job resume. It's talking about your experience assessing risk, building a company, governance compliance, things that a board member would look at, governance compliance things that a board member would look at and the board members not looking at the details of you know, do you get two weeks or three weeks for vacation? They're looking at what's our strategic plan, the being the boss of the ceo, representing shareholders. So you want a board, one page board resume that talks about what you've done. That would be analogous to that. And then you really want to get on. A not-for-profit board Helps because, especially if it's big enough, there will be other corporate people there and you will make contacts. But it's really about making contacts. A lot of investment banks they don't use search firms when they take a company public. They have databases, they go through their contacts. Bankers know people. It's all about the three sources. I would say. If any of your listeners are saying I want to be on a board one day, do you know anybody in investment banking, private equity, public accounting, M&A law firms anybody like that and tell everybody you're looking for those recommendations. And then the last thing is a lot of your listeners are successful people who've had roles in companies that are entrepreneurial in nature, and a lot of them I know people that have taught an entrepreneurship class or a lecturer at Rice University here. And there's a lot of smart kids who are starting businesses. Let's not forget Google, Facebook, some of these companies that started from college kids, and I think that's a great avenue to think about when, if you're thinking about ways to get on a board. Dave: I like it. That's really cool. Well, speaking of rounding third base, I can't believe how the time has flown by. I have just a couple other questions for you. One is I've heard about this great resignation. For you One is I've heard about this great resignation. What has been your experience? Is this trickled up to the C-suite and the board level, or is this a problem that those people are having to deal with? People lower in the organization? Tell me about the great resignation from your perspective. Jane: Well, one thing hasn't changed. If you look at CEOs of Fortune 500 companies that are recruited from the outside, I would say they have a 50% chance of being there two to three years out. And why is that? Culture fit so the top. You will always have CEO changes, especially if they come from outside and they don't fit with the culture. What I think we are seeing and we see from our clients is post-COVID. There's been so many obvious changes but a lot of things that aren't obvious. People don't want to relocate as much as they might have pre-COVID. Why is that? Well, covid scared people in terms of my parents I've got to take care of my parents, I may have to have my kids at home for high school, and do I want to go to someplace new and have something like that happen? So I think you're having that we're coming out of. But you're also having middle range employees who aren't as loyal, and you know I always tease that a lot of the younger people today. If they have a bad Monday, they may be somebody someplace else by Friday. So I think there's not quite that dickiness of what you grew up with and I grew up with. Hey, you know we want to. You know we don't want to be a quote job hopper and I think people today don't care if they're job hoppers quite as much. And there's not that people are more willing. I think in COVID accentuated that where they're more willing to take risk. And, you know, maybe I'll be without a job for a month, two months, and yeah, I think we're seeing that. And what I tell small businesses that you know be focusing on long how do you make a culture that will keep people invested long term? And there've been a lot written on that and it's different for every company depending on where your location is and what your employee mix. But I think that's a really important thing that everybody's got to do in a bigger way. And also, lastly, dave, the emphasis on mental health, something that has changed dramatically in the last three years, where you know we've got to take care of people financially. And also, how are they doing? Because so many people were isolated during COVID and had mental health issues and people talk about that more, which we never did back in the day. You just bucked it up and, you know, kept making those source calls, dave, you know. Dave: For every six you made, you got to check off a tenth of an hour of work. Jane: Exactly. You had to make a left message with 10 people to get that six. I had it backwards. Dave: It was even harder than I remembered. That's why you get so excited if somebody answered the phone because that, even if you only talk 30 seconds, you got to put them down as a yeah, no, that's right they go no, I'm not interested and you go, that's OK. Jane: Awesome, ten minutes ahead here. Dave: That is great. So so I think the two questions left, so one. Is there anything that I did not ask you that you wish I had? Is there anything we did not talk about that you think we should have? Jane: No, you're a really good interviewer, Dave, which? Dave: I learned it from you. I learned it starts with interviewing candidates and it translates to other things. Jane: Well, I'm, you know, I'm really honored to be here, dave, because the people that you serve and that you do work for. I think it is much harder to run a smaller private company than it is a big company, because you've got to have employees who are multifaceted, You've got to have employees who have an entrepreneurial mindset, you've got to have employees who have an entrepreneurial mindset. So my hat is off to the work you do the clients that you serve, because it is a hard business. Dave: Well, I appreciate that. I love serving entrepreneurs, that is for sure. So here's the last question. This is a curveball one you may remember. When you asked if you need to do any preparation, I said no, we're just going to talk about your life story and you don't need any prep. But I promise you one curveball, and here it is. Are you ready? If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 or 28 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Jane: Yeah, oh, that is a great. That is a great question. Don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff. Dave: Okay. Jane: And the things that you worry about about 90% of them do not materialize. Dave: Was that? Was it Mark Twain or Will Rogers? I always get their two quotes conflated. But one of them said I'm an old man, man, and in my life I've known a great many. I've known a great many difficulties, most of which never came to pass, or something to that effect yes, that's right. Jane: And Mark Twain, as you will recall from our time together, said I didn't have time to write a short story, so I wrote a long story, right? Dave: Exactly. Yeah, I learned a lot about incise writing and just I'm always amazed that people that just the simplest stuff that I never picked up in English class. Like you know, bob is a person who does XYZ, he's not. It's not Bob that does something, it's Bob. Bob's not a that, he's a who. Jane: That's, that's right and word choice, and. But you know I, you know I sound like a geezer, but you know stuff like that is. I mean a lot of people today really don't know that. I mean even you know I see at the executive ranks a lot of people who, who just, and you know, I think one of the things when I talk to people early in their career is learn to write, learn business writing out there. I mean especially now with Zoom and you can do business with people by email A lot of people. And if I get a resume from somebody that doesn't spell check or anything else. Dave, one final story, and it's so good and it reminds me. It does remind me of you for obvious reasons, but I don't know if you remember that we sent a letter out one time when you joined, maybe when you rejoined us, and we said Dave is from you know, arthur Anderson, a leading public accounting firm, but we left out the L of public. Do you remember that? Dave: I remember that does sound familiar. I remember somebody saying well, I don't know what it is, but we want some right, that's funny because, yeah, when you send out as many, as much written correspondence as the firm has for so long, it can't try as you might, it can't all be perfect. Just like I'm amazed when I read, like a bestselling book that sold 20 million copies and you find a typo. You're like but you know, when I talked to an author about that they said, yeah, there's, you know, 100,000 words in here, like you, just sometimes they slip through the cracks. Jane: Well, Dave, I the thing I remember about you and I always feel like I can learn something from everybody, even though there's an you're younger than I am. But even back when you were really young and with us, you were so effective at client communication and getting business. And do you remember that? You are the ones that taught us that people are hardwired to want to help, but you have to give them a way to help you. And you would come up with a list, Like, do you know people from any of these five companies? And people would look at and go, oh yeah, I can help you, I do know somebody from here. And what a great way to teach someone how to develop their own clients as to teach the client how to help the potential client or source how to help them. Dave: Well, that's one of the benefits of being a bad employee who changed jobs every year is I was exposed to a lot of things. I learned that in the financial services business and what made it so powerful was because in the financial services business you're always trying to get you know referrals to folks and if you just say, hey, jane, you know who, do you know who's looking to buy life insurance, probably nobody comes to mind. Nobody, because nobody's come up and said hey, I need life insurance. Do you know anyone? But what I learned in that is still helpful today. But instead, if you give somebody a list of 10 people and you say, jane, I'm going to be calling these 10 people next week, I'm just curious, can you tell me, is there anyone on this list you think's particularly great or you think really highly of? And they'd say, oh sure, let me borrow your pen. They check off the before names, you're like great. And then I would say, hey, by chance, if you happen to talk to them before next week, will you tell them I'm going to call them and they, of course, would say, sure, I haven't talked to this guy. I went to law school in five years. It's unlikely I'm going to talk to him this week, but sure, I'll tell him, okay. And then, finally, jane, when I talked to John Lamar, is it appropriate to mention that you know that we had a conversation? You know that he came up in conversation? Sure, yeah, no problem. So then, when I would call the person, it was so easy. Hey, john Lamar, by chance did Jane Howes tell you I'd be calling? No, how's Jane doing? I haven't seen her since law school. Boy, she's really wonderful, I like Jane. And so, yeah, you know Jane. Huh, yeah, I haven't known her a long time. I haven't known her as long as I've known you. Meaning I've met her for 10 minutes, but all of my dealings with her were first rate, all of them. And then just say, hey, you know, jane had some nice things to say about you and she thought we might benefit from knowing meeting one another. You know, know, when are you? It was amazing how well that. But it all started with just having a list to start with, because there's a difference between if somebody like, let's say, that conversation went poorly and john lamar called you back and said, hey, why'd you have? that dave spray guy call me. Well, if you can say, I didn't tell him to call you. He already had your name. He was going to call you anyway he just asked me. Jane: Anyway, great guy, yeah right. Dave: He just wanted to know if you were a jerk or not. And apparently I was wrong because you're gonna give me a hard time. All I did was say you were a nice guy and and now you're giving me a hard time, but yeah and and dave. Jane: What I remember the funny thing was john lamar are my 30 year partner. He went to a meeting with you and he said jane, dave pulled out the list. And I said he pulled out the list. And he said yes, and it worked and we just like we were so nervous about the list. But, Dave, it really worked. Dave: It is funny. And the irony is, the time you pull the list out is when the meeting doesn't go well. You know, like it's a brief meeting and they're like no, my best man at my wedding is a partner at Horn Fairy. That's where all of our search goes. We'll never give it to anyone else. Well, now you have nothing to lose by pulling out the list. I mean, if they on the spot want to sign you up for some searches, well, just keep the list in your pocket. But and the irony was the worse the meeting goes, the more helpful. Jane: They would seem to be right because they kind of feel bad that you flew away from houston. Dave: You flew all the way from houston out to see them and they can't help you. So now, sure, I'll look at your list. I'll give you some. Jane: But it's true, the list, dave, I mean that is a course in business development and we were like God, that list is not going to work. But it works, it absolutely does. Dave: Well, and you know when I first used that this shows what how I approach business development when I was in the financial services business right at Arthur Anderson attorneys were my best prospects. So this was like 1990, excel hadn't even been invented, they were using Lotus one, two, three. And I bought the Martindale Hubble legal director. You remember this thing? The blue, yeah. Maybe it was an yeah, but it was a blue thing and what I did that I was so proud of myself. I went through that and I created a spreadsheet and I knew one attorney in Houston and he was like a second year attorney at some place and he went to U of H and I played basketball with him and I went and I had lunch with him and I pulled out the graduates from like the top 20 law firms in Houston and I'm sorted by year in college. So the first list I gave him was all of the people who graduated from law school, the ones in his start class. And then I gave him a list of all the other U of H grads who were like a couple of years older to a year younger Same thing, who do you know? And then I made the call to them and then, jane, it got to be so crazy. I would go to like V&E and I would be there like I'd have like 12 meetings in a row, like, and they would literally walk me from one office to the next and they'd be like, hey, so who's next on your list? Oh, bob. Oh, he's a hoot, yeah, you'll enjoy meeting him. And so they would escort me into the office. It was like it was this introduction from one stranger to another one, but then the new person I would meet with. So you know, lauren introduced me to a guy who started with him that went to UT, so I would have all the other UT guys at his firm and at the other firms in town and it just exploded. Like in three or four months I was like the guy for all the third year attorneys at Baker Botts and V&E and Fulbright, but anyway, that is so fun, but it works, dave, and it's something you know. Jane: 15, 20 years later I still remember. Quote the list. Dave: Yeah, yeah, some great times. So, jane, thank you so much for not only inviting me to the 40th anniversary party that was just spectacular. Seeing some of my former colleagues, that was just great and just having the ability to be friends with you and your husband and John Lamar all these years is very special. I like to say there's only one ex-girlfriend I keep in touch with and there's only one ex-employer I keep in touch with, and that's you all when you are a VIP favored status. Jane: you work for us twice and we keep hoping that phone will ring the third time, dave, and it'll be the charm. Dave: Yeah, you never know. And I would jokingly say I did two tours of duty which you know doesn't really sound very complimentary to the firm. I must say, tour of duty has a certain negativity to it in a way, you know, conscription drafted. Jane: Yes, it's. At least it's not like prison sentence. You know I'll give you that. Dave: That is awesome. Well, Jane, I could talk all day to you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate everything. Jane: Oh, my pleasure, Dave. How much fun this has been. Dave: It has been have a great day. Jane: Thanks, Dave Bye. Special Guest: Jane Howze.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with estate planning expert Jonathon Morrison. Listen in as he shares strategic guidance for business owners worth $10+ million on safeguarding wealth in the changing tax landscape. With the looming December 2025 deadline, Jonathon explains trust structures and exemptions that can freeze business value to minimize estate taxes. From revenue crunching to complex legislation, his expertise cuts through financial jargon. For those growing rapidly or concerned about legacy, this conversation provides nuanced counsel on leveraging sophisticated legal mechanisms.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jonathon Morrison, an estate planning expert, discusses strategies for business owners to preserve their wealth and protect it from potential estate tax changes expected by December 31st, 2025. We examine the importance of proactive estate planning for business owners, especially those with assets ranging from $10 to $100 million, to minimize estate tax implications. Jonathon emphasizes the benefits of sophisticated trust structures that can 'freeze' a business's value for tax purposes while providing robust defense against unforeseen events. The conversation covers the urgency for business owners to engage in estate planning before the anticipated decrease in estate tax exemptions in 2026. We explore how transferring business ownership into special trusts can help business owners maintain control of their assets while reducing their taxable estate. A case study is presented, demonstrating how strategic valuation discounts and transferring minority interest to a gift trust can result in significant estate tax savings. Jonathon outlines his unique business model, which includes direct engagement with clients, flat fee structures, and comprehensive annual reviews, to provide personalized estate planning services. The episode touches on the financial benefits of estate planning, such as savings on estate taxes and protection of inheritances from creditors, lawsuits, and divorce. During the podcast, Jonathon shares his personal background, including his passion for car collecting and his roots in Arizona. We delve into the complexities of funding designs for gift trusts, stressing the importance of optimizing both the trust structure and the funding strategy for maximum effectiveness. Contact Details Email (jmorrison@frgalaw.com) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathonmorrison/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Frazer Ryan Goldberg and Arnold LLP GUEST Jonathon MorrisonAbout Jonathon TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hello, my name is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Jonathon Morrison, a senior partner at the law firm of Fraser Ryan Goldberg in Arnold. Jonathon is a highly specialized estate planning attorney for people with large estates, Jonathon has a unique approach and covers a variety of different strategies. I think the biggest takeaway is that if you believe in hyper-focused specialists and you own a privately held business, then Jonathon is probably the guy for you. We covered again a number of different strategies and the urgency of December 31st 2025, why that's so significant for estate tax planning and he also encouraged everybody to address this year rather than waiting until next year. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Jonathon, welcome to the podcast. Jonathon: Thank you, David. Thanks for having me. Where are you? Dave: connecting from today. Jonathon: I'm down here in Scottsdale, arizona. I'm a senior partner with Frazier, ryan, goldberg and Arnold. We're the largest trust and estate firm in Arizona. I'm a senior partner focusing on advanced estate planning for large, complex estates. Dave: Awesome. So I know you went to Arizona undergrad. Are you from Arizona? Jonathon: Yeah, I grew up here, all 18 years of my life in the same house. I've got a nice-. Dave: You're like the only one. You're the only that's right, a lot of yeah. Jonathon: Yeah, so I went to U of A studied finance accounting, and then I went up to law school in San Francisco. I lived in the heart of the city for about 11 years and met my wife, and then we came back to raise kids here in 2015. So I've got a six-year-old Jack and a three-year-old Rose. Dave: That's awesome, and I love Scottsdale. I go there every January for the Barrett-Jackson auctions. I always enjoy being there. Jonathon: Well, you probably saw my bio I am a car enthusiast, collector, track driver. Oh, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that. I know cars are like kids, you can't really have a favorite. But if you did have a favorite, what's your favorite? Over the years I've had a lot of cars, but I primarily drive and collect bmws, porsches and ferraris. Dave: Okay, yeah do you have a 2002? Jonathon: no, I don't have a classic 2002, mostly modern stuff. Okay, all the modern sort of m2s, m3s. I usually I only have about three or four cars at a time, unlike a lot of guys, but I swap them every six, twelve months I'm changing them in and out understood, so I drove a tesla model s plaid three years ago and my enthusiasm for gasoline engine just kind of went away. Dave: I always said I was brand agnostic and powertrain agnostic. So at one point I had the Tesla Model S Plaid, I had a Camaro ZL1 convertible six speed and I had a Jeep diesel Grand Cherokee which I had a special order to get the three liter diesel. So I'm like three brands, three propulsion types, but I'm down to actually one vehicle for the first time in a long time, a Rivian R1S, which is by far the best vehicle I've ever owned. My biggest concern with them is just whether they're going to be in business in another year or not. Jonathon: Right, right. It's like Fisker they keep coming in and out and I just saw news today they're not doing well. Yeah, I've never driven the Plaid, although my one of my Ferraris is faster than that Plaid, believe it or not? Oh wow. Dave: That's great. Well, we'll have to talk about it more and I'll be sure to look you up next January on Scottsdale, please do so. We're going to talk about estate planning and I know enough to be dangerous. My listeners and clients are privately held business owners with enterprise values between probably $10 and $100 million. The business represents the majority of their net worth and I understand there's some things going on that have some deadlines that create some urgency, so why don't we get into it? So just start wherever you want to. Jonathon: Sure, yeah. So those clients are really my clients, mid-market business owners for the most part. My practice, again, we call it advanced estate planning. What that means is the net worth, including business real estate, is high enough to warrant planning beyond just the will and living trust, powers of attorney, the core estate documents that everybody needs. Once you get to a certain wealth level or income level, then you need to start focusing on advanced planning, which encompasses we joke all the acronym planning, all of those acronyms you hear about in the estate and gift world. So for mid-market business owners, right now generally you're looking at $10 million minimum enterprise value. That warrants a good look at estate planning. We have the urgency at this point it's not as urgent quite yet which is the time to catch us because there's a limited number of Jonathon Morrisons in any state other than, you know, california I practiced up in Silicon Valley for about a decade or Manhattan you know there's about 50 of us, but in most of the smaller any other state there's maybe five, maybe that really you know, do this day in and day out. It's like a heart surgery. I've done this over 500 times transactions, design, implementation, and you've got to have at least 200, 250 reps before you really know what you're doing, mastering the vehicles themselves and then being able to distill it and communicate it to clients and be able to then get it done very quickly without you know. Business owners they hate this stuff. This is complex, it's annoying. They don't want to talk about death and taxes. They want us to operate their business. So I've done a very unique model that we can get into a little bit. I wanted to focus on the urgency, but a very unique model that's really custom tailored for busy business owners that need to get this done quickly, with high quality and low stress. But the urgency back to the urgency. So I think most of your listeners probably know that the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the Trump tax reform, is going to expire or sunset as of January 1st 2026. Dave: Okay, Less than two years. Jonathon: Yeah, yeah. So you know a year and nine months and as part of that, in the estate planning world, really the biggest change, perhaps the only significant change, is the reduction in the federal gift and estate tax exemptions. Okay, what are those? Well, right now there are all-time highs, okay, there are all-time highs, okay. Right now you can gift during life or at death up to $13.5 million if you're single, without any gift or estate tax. Or if you're married, you can give to about $27.2 during life or at death, and above that, if you go over that, there's a 40% gift tax. If you gift during life or at death, a 40% inheritance tax paid by your children, and so that exemption amount is scheduled to be cut in half on January 1st 2026. We don't know quite yet the number. It's probably going to be somewhere around 7 million for a single and 14 million for a married couple. So significant amount less that you can gift to individuals children, grandchildren, anybody else in 2026, unless you lock in that exemption before then. So upon so. Let me just interject one second. Dave: So just understanding numbers that I do. If you consider a population one, everybody within a state over 27 million is group one and group two is everybody between 13 and 27 million of a state size. I'm guessing that group two is probably way larger than group one, even though on absolute dollars there's folks from 26 million all the way to billions. But I'm guessing is that assumption correct that a multiple of people who needed to worry about exceeding the exemption, those number of people, are now being multiplied. Is that right? Jonathon: Yeah, once exemptions go down. You've got a lot of people now that have to worry about estate taxes. So in 2026, there's going to be a lot more people that need my services. But between now and 26, it's really. You know, if I had to pick a number, it's somebody that either already has about 10, $15 million or more, because you're doubling every 10 years, assuming the rule of 72. Yep, those people need to look at this planning. But, more importantly perhaps, are a lot of your listeners. These are business owners and their businesses are on fire. They're just going out there. Ebit is jumping every year. Multiples might be getting higher and so between now and their death they might be in their 40s, 50s, 60s. They got a long life expectancy. They're likely going to have a lot of them over $100 million net worth at death. That's when you have to measure this tax. You file a federal estate tax return within nine months after death and the government wants valuations and they want to see what you're worth and there's a 40% tax imposed at that time and that's due within nine months. There's a huge check that gets written. The good news is a Harvard professor famously said the federal estate tax is optional as long as you plan for it. I don't care what you're worth If you've got 20, maybe 30 years to live, unless you're like over a half billion dollars of net worth. I can usually wipe out the federal estate tax through proactive planning and I've got, like I said, a finance and accounting background. I've got financial models that I run free of charge all up front to show you Like I just did one for a $100 million business owner and it showed that he had about 20 million of other assets. But it showed and he was 55, it showed that if he was willing to transfer 60% of his business into the special kind of trust that we were going to wipe out his $200 million projected estate tax in 30 years it was going to go to zero and he had totally stabilized cash flow and liquidity between now and year 30. So the name of the game is to figure out how much do we need to transfer, and you got to run financial models. Most attorneys don't do that, but for a business owner there's so much that we can do because we can value the business at less attractive values at the time of gift number one. So valuations in the tax code say the valuation firm has to look at it from a discounted cashflow perspective, not a strategic buyer perspective. I just had a $600 million company that just sold a year ago. We got a value to $80 million because it wasn't valued from a strategic buyer standpoint. So if you come to me and you're 80 and you've got $100 million of cash, it's a lot harder to wipe out the estate tax versus a business owner that's got a EBIT of $5, $10 million. But they're in their 50s. We can transfer some of that business out and rely on a number of other mechanisms to wipe out that estate tax and get asset protection while they're living Very easily. They keep total control over their estate if you do it right and the business so I'm intrigued. Tell me more do it right and the business. So I'm intrigued, tell me more. Yeah, I'll tell you the exemptions going away when you run the financial models out 30 or 40 years for a lot of your business owner clients. Okay, there's, the exemption is prompting a lot of this planning and I'll explain one of the reason. But the exemptions are going down. It's use it or lose it. Okay. So let's say you've got a nice boring balance sheet $50 million stocks and bonds. Okay, single guy, you guys should definitely gift his $13.6 million exemption before 2026. We'll talk about you know, just gift it to kids. I've got a special vehicle that's done over 200 of these without an audit, making the cover of the state national state planning journal in May. So you've got a trust receptacle. If you do it right, that client could gift $13 million and keep total control and access while they're living. Again, if you know what you're doing and that irrevocable trust is designed from the outset correctly, which a lot of them aren't, I call that the optimized gift trust. So, again, that's a boring $50 million cash, stocks, bonds. So, business owners, we got the exemptions going away. That's prompting some of this. Here's the more important impetuses for reasons to act. Number one, the business keeps going up in value. We want to freeze that appreciation on that business, gift it out of the estate. So all that post-gift appreciation on the business when they sell, all of that is soaked up off balance sheet. You don't your clients, my clients are too wealthy and we don't want them getting any wealthier because there was creditor and lawsuit exposure while they're living and then at death the government takes the estate tax. So the sooner we can get a client before the business takes off, transfer some or all of that business to that special type of optimized gift trust. Get them all the control, but start building wealth off balance sheet. Rockefeller famously said you want to own nothing but control everything. If you do it right, they won't own that business anymore but they can control and access that gift trust in so many different ways. The IRS has lost so many cases in the last several decades. That allows us to pack those optimized gift trusts with so many cases in the last several decades. That allows us to pack those optimized gift trusts with so many controls. So again, number one urgency is really the fact that a lot of business owners are going to continue to grow their business and we want to shelter it. The second major reason is we have a lot of legislative risk right now. I mentioned how over the last 40, 50 years, the IRS has pretty much been on the losing end of all the cases in estate and gift. In the old days you couldn't pack that much control in these gift trusts. The IRS has lost cases or given up or acquiesced in rulings that now, if you do it right, these gift trusts that you put in your business or other assets into, there's pretty much nothing we can't. It's technically irrevocable if you don't own it anymore. But if you do it right, like you'll see in my paper, my materials for the gift trust, they have so much control In 2021, they almost patched it. Remember that building back better bill yeah. A lot of its owners were worried about. While there was a little piece nobody was paying attention to except for us in the state and gift tax eight pages it would have killed all of these flexible trusts that we use. Any quote, grant or trust would have been abolished unless you got it funded before Biden signed it into law. So I did 160 deals, $3 billion of gifts, those 18 month period. It didn't pass because remember there were two senators, manchin and Sinema, that didn't vote for it but with and this is covered in my paper in the journal they could. There's always rumors they could take another stab at trying to kill off Grand Tour Trusts. We also have interest rates that could keep going up. A lot of what we do leverages those interest rates. So there's a lot of headwinds in the near future, next few years perhaps. And the lowered exemptions this is sort of the golden age of estate planning. That's kind of fleeting because they're trying to kill off the trust. Exemptions are going down, interest rates are going up. If you're a business owner, this is the time to act. If you haven't already, okay. Dave: Yeah, because I'm assuming, since you're talking about valuations being discounted cashflow, that these higher interest rates are creating bigger discounts. Jonathon: That's part of it, I mean the major reason for interest rates being relevant is you can gift assets to these types of trusts. But you're limited by that exemption $13 million. There's another way you can actually get up to 10 times that amount in these trusts and that's the so-called sale to a defective grantor trust. What does that mean? It means I put $13 million of cash in this trust. I can then actually transfer another 130 million 10 times in exchange for a note back to me. Okay, that note. The IRS requires a minimum interest rate pretty much tracks the 10-year treasury. So the higher the interest rate, the more this trust is feeding back into your name, your taxable estate. So we want low interest rates, we want to be able to-. I see, a couple of years ago we were lending so much money at the 1% interest only 30 year fixed Right Gift trust is arbitraging and we froze that client's estate at that note value with 1%. So there's other strategies like GRATS and CLATS that are interest rate dependent. But bottom line it's one headwind is. So why don't we talk a little bit? So we talked about sort of the urgencies, business value going up. These cool trusts that we've been using for decades might be gone soon. If you don't get it done, you'd be great to put it in under everything we've ever seen. So this is the time to act. Now let's talk about the importance of that gift trust being flexible. Okay, I developed this thing in 2020. I call it I just I call it an optimized gift trust. Okay, it's. If you know any of my gift trusts and many of your podcast listeners, I've probably heard of idgits or generation skipping trusts or dynasty trusts or slats, all these things. All those things basically mean is, hey, they're features of a gift trust that give you either tax benefits or retained control. So what if you create a gift trust and you just put all those things into one? I call it a hybrid. It's nothing new. If you go to Manhattan or Silicon Valley, they're not going to call an optimized gift trust. It's just how we do it there. But you go to smaller markets like where I live, phoenix or it isn't even a small market but there's attorneys that aren't just getting. They're just not getting enough repetitions over the years. So these gift trusts a lot of the ones I review locally, for example just don't have the maximum strengths and controls that your business owner client can have if they're gifting. And it's a big deal because if you run the financial model, the majority of wealth is going to be in these gift trusts. If they're not done from the outset, you might never be able to get that money back or change the beneficiaries or access it or do many, lots of different things. And I clean up bad, irrevocable gift trusts all the time. So in 2020, I developed this thing called the Optimized Gift Trust. Three page in out overview. I got a seven page frequently asked questions. I try to productize things. I've done this 500 times. I try to take all this complexity and put it into a nice, easy to go package for business owners that are way too busy, and so this gift trust has all the bells and whistles and I mentioned. I was just asked by the National Estate Planning Journal, the top journal in my field. I made the cover back in 2020 with a different product. This one, in May 2024, in a couple of months will be on the cover, the full legal citations. It was peer reviewed, everything. There wasn't a single change. So it all checks out, never been audited. It's audit defensible as well. We've got an army of lawyers here at this firm, about three or four of them that are former IRS trial attorneys that can defend it. But my point is is these business owners need to make transfers here soon and you better darn have your gift trust within that 60 page document. It's irrevocable, meaning you can't change it, the terms of that trust, once it's done, and so if it's not optimized from the outset, that can be a big problem. So, yeah, you really want a flexible, accessible trust. If you do it right, the business owner, literally there's no downside. We can get it back in four or five different access points make changes, especially if they're married. You can include slot powers, spousal life access, trust powers which give the marital unit even more control. So that's the again number one, the urgency to act, and the number two, making sure you've got a strong gift trust to receive that gift and make changes down the road. Dave: Okay, yeah, that sounds that makes a lot of sense. So could you give us maybe a case study example, like anonymously. Sure, you know just to kind of give some color to some of this yeah, sure. Jonathon: So I mentioned I have a unique process and as part of that, what I do is I prepare. I built out this financial model. Okay, if you go to any of the top I mean, I haven't found a bank yet that I really like their financial model. Even the top banks in the world. They've got these financial models that will illustrate what it looks like to gift into these gift trusts and they'll run it out 30 years and it'll show you cash flows and tax savings. But all the models I've reviewed are really developed by financial people, not estate and gift attorneys like me. So about 10 years ago I developed this bespoke model. It's Excel-based and we can input all you know. I basically have it custom tailored to what I like to do. So I put in spending, you know assets, asset performance, business assumptions, how long you're going to live all of these things and you put in. Really, it's determined. The goal of this is to output for me. How much does my client need to gift into this gift trust to cause it so that they I joke die poor? We want them burying life. If you get sued, you don't own it anymore. That objective, the competing objective, is we don't want them to put too much in the gift trust, because the IRS doesn't like if you're poking and prodding and grabbing the assets out of there. Ideally they'll never need to touch it. Okay, we've got all these access points that they need to get back in emergency Great, but I want to make sure that they haven't given it away too much. They've still got plenty of liquidity, stabilized cash net of expenses, net of taxes, net of spending over here. So that's the output. So you wanted a case study. You wanted a case study so I just did one of the sample model. That's client business owner. He's got about $5 million of liquid assets, cash stocks, bonds. He's got $10 million of investment, real estate. He's got a $5 million home. So you know 20, 25 million, but the bulk of his net worth is in the business. It doesn't have to be that way. A lot of business owners have a lot less. But the assumption was it was you could sell the business to a strategic for $100 million in two years. We went and got a valuation, looked at the company from the worst possible lens defensively low top valuation firm, looked at EBITDA, looked at the markets and also applied minority interest valuation discounts. So a lot of times we're gifting minority interest in the company to the gift trust. You get further discounts Bottom line. It's not atypical for a $100 million company to be valued at maybe $20 million when all the discounts are applied. Okay enterprise discount, maybe down to 40, and then maybe another 40, 50% discount on that for minority interest. So we put all this in the model. He's spending 750 grand a year and then you've got inflation adjustments and everything. But the model showed that if he gifted 60% of the shares in his company to this special gift trust, that over the next 30 years, rather than his estate just growing, I think he has about $500 million in 30 years on these assumptions, causing a $200 million inheritance tax at death 40% of 500. By gifting that 60% interest we froze his estate tax. I think about $15 million. So he always had about $50 million in his hands. But all but because he had that sweet spot, all of that future value, even when the business is sold and reinvested, we froze his net worth at about 50 over here and effectively, because of all the thing that's going on, the gift trust was worth $450 million at death. That gift trust is not only exempt from 40% of state tax at his death but it's generation skipping, meaning it's totally out of, permanently out of the federal 40% gift inheritance tax for generations. In Arizona we got 500 years Depends on which state you live in or you set it up but we wiped out $200 million state tax and it made sure he had plenty of money to spend. Totally accessible gift trust if he ever needed to access it Controlled the business units that he gifted away. We can still make changes to beneficiaries or give it all to charity or some of the charity. Down the road he could borrow from the gift trust all sorts of stuff. His wife could take distributions out, so that's a great. I mean this is a very common example of the power that state attorneys that know what they're doing can do for a business owner for relatively small fees very small fees compared to that type of savings. Dave: Sure, and I presume that's where the word optimized comes in, because you're talking about that modeling and you're kind of trying to find that sweet spot of him having enough cash flow, enough control, right? Is that kind of what the optimization means? Jonathon: You hit it on the head. There's two optimizations okay. The first is making sure that gift trust has optimized his retain and control right. We've given as much as the irs case law allows with minimal risk. We're not going over the edge and there's a ton of stuff we can pack in there. So if he needs to do anything with the gift trust, we've got that optimized. And then the second thing is making sure exactly that the transfer into trust I call it the funding design, how it's transferred. Is it a gift? Is it a sale? For a note back, are we loaning additional assets? Modeling that out so that the funding design is optimized? I have to put a disclaimer in here. I'd say 95% of trusts and designs that I review probably less than that are totally optimized. There's a lot of attorneys out there that are going to seminars. They're reading about certain gift trusts, especially SLATs, spousal Life Access Trusts and they think they can get on their computer and go on some document program and start pushing buttons and making it work. This is dangerous. I didn't know what I was doing until probably about 200 transactions. I was at the top firm in Silicon Valley took public Apple, google, facebook, amazon, tesla and I was training for 10 hard years before I knew what I was doing. So making sure that your gift trust is prepared by somebody that specializes in the field has done it many times, and not just the trust being done right. Maybe you can get those buttons right if you're pushing them. The funding design is much more complex and I don't know many attorneys that can the no numbers backwards and forwards. They usually rely on the financial advisor usually doesn't really know how to apply their financial modeling to estate planning. It's just, it's a concern. So, anyways, that's enough of that disclaimer. But yeah, you got to optimize the trust and the funding design, which is my journal article 15 pages, goes into everything I'm talking about in detail. Dave: No, thank you very much. That is very helpful and we'll want to link some of that information that I'll get from you after we finish recording. Jonathon: Excellent, yeah, happy to. I'll share the overview. Frequently asked questions and I'm not sure if I can share that journal article. It's in the final peer reviewed draft but once that comes out, I'm bulk of their wealth is in the business. Dave: Now what about? So is it safe to assume that, say, somebody has a? They have a business that's worth $5 million. They have another $3 or $4 million outside the business. They don't anticipate huge growth in the business. Do they have a need for this planning? Jonathon: Yeah, I think I mean. Again, it depends on what the value of the business If you pass away, the IRS is going to require a valuation of that company within nine months If you're over the exemption amount again in a couple of years. Here you know, exemption is $7 million for single, $14 for married. So yeah, I think if the value of the company and all the assets are $10 million or above, I think it's at least worth a conversation. There's a different design for a $15 million contract individual or couple than 100 million dollar. You might, for example, you know a lot of 20 or 30 million dollar cases I come across not all business owners. But, like the design there is, you want to consume one spouse's exemption you don't need and then preserve the second spouse's exemption. So gift out of that spouse's exemption, lock, lock that in at least before 26. Right, partial forfeiture of the other spouse there's lots of things you can do. But yeah, I think I'd say it's probably closer. You know, 15 million is kind of net worth level all in real estate business. If you die tomorrow it's worth talking about and running it, you know, and see if it's worthwhile. Dave: Yeah, and because, like you're saying, one of the biggest risks of that scenario is, let's say, this hypothetical person is married and you know, let's say the exemptions drop in 27 to what you're thinking they will be, yeah, but let's just say, though, that the year before. And then let's say he dies in 2029, but let's say the year before he dies he just has a huge year, a record year, yeah, and then the business gets valued. Within nine months of when he dies, he might have a surprise valuation, right? So so, like that's, another piece of it too is you're locking in this valuation at the most conservative value and it sounds like postmortem. Some of those tools may be limited. Jonathon: They're gone. Yeah, once somebody passes away, we can't do any estate tax savings for them. Yeah, you're right, locking in low valuation. So, for example, I just I represented these famous restaurateurs and you know definitely a couple hundred million dollars of restaurants. 2020 happened and all the restaurants shut down and I remember I was just I tried so hard they ended up not pulling a trigger. I said look guys, I said your value of your restaurants because of the COVID pandemic is like probably 20% of what it used to be. Nobody knows how long this pandemic's going. I said let's get these restaurants transferred out of your estate at a depressed gift value. By the way, we got a file the only filing for this is a one-time gift. Federal gift tax return said hey, here's our valuation, irs, here's what we transferred. There's only there's a less than 1% reported audit rate on those. Okay, IRS has three years to challenge the value. If they don't which they never do then you've cleansed that gift and that valuation At death. Right now, there's almost 100% chance that an estate tax auditor at least somebody's going to look at it from the IRS. They might not do a full audit, but somebody's going to look at it. So if you've got attractive valuations, especially if it's a depressed year on your EBITDA. For whatever reason, that's the year to get it in. It's like buying low, selling high. Similar you want to transfer that into the gift trust. When it's low, use a minimal amount of your exemption and soak up all that post-gift appreciation out of the estate. Two more things. Life insurance is a big deal. It's not something I sell, but for business owners it's just good estate planning. Dave: Yeah, just to have the liquidity to pay the estate tax. Jonathon: Exactly yeah, because there's a section of tax code the good news that says if you pass away and more than 35% of your estate is trapped up in a business, or even if you're a real estate professional, real estate business can qualify and you get to pay that estate tax actually over up to 15 years. Okay, section 61. Here's the problem. The IRS wants liens. You've got now IRS as your partner or you died and your partner's now the IRS liens and all the headache. So here's what I tell clients. I say look, I can, if you live long enough, I can almost certainly wipe out your estate tax without you ever having to, you know, lose control or give up a penny, essentially. But until, like, if you've already come to me, you've got a hundred million dollars, say well, or a business worth a hundred, say it's going to take some, there's some time component. Can't immediately wipe out the death tax, but there's a time component, usually by like year 10, 20, we're getting close. So buy a big old policy of life insurance. We get it into the gift trust, irre. We get it into the gift trust, irrevocable life insurance trust or an islet, at least the death benefit isn't getting included in the estate. And then if you get a flexible life insurance policy, you can always scale down that death benefit as I'm doing my job over the years in the estate tax. You can reduce that death benefit, but if you have an unexpected death, at least we've got some liquidity to get the IRS out of the way and you don't got liens on the business for 15 years, right, yeah, so that's critical. We've got a few more minutes, unless you have something else, I want to talk about my process, yeah, so again, this is very unique. Attorneys drive me as crazy as they drive most businesses. What's the complaints about? In fact, in 20 minutes I'm going to present to all my attorneys here at the firm on best practices, on efficiencies and productivity, because I've got all these systems down. But what are the knocks? Right, attorneys, they never get back to you. They don't use email, hourly billing, some range, you know. I remember a famous quote. You know some attorney said oh, it's going to cost I don't know $5,000 to $10,000. And it was a construction, a builder, and I remember the builder said wait a second, I can quote a $20 million project down to the penny and you can't quote a darn estate plan to give me a $5,000 to $10,000 range. Anyways, hourly billings, all this talking over their head. It takes five meetings to get anything done. It's complicated. So I solved all this Five years ago. I went to just kind of revamp the whole model and I do a number of things. First, I don't have any junior lawyers. Okay, you think it's hard to hire in your industry for your business? Try the neurosurgery of the law in a small market it's impossible even find senior lawyers that are really good at this at the advanced planning. So it's driving me crazy. You know quality control and delays, where who's on which client stuff comes back. It's a mess. I got a red line in it, lots of control lock with control, caseload control and quality control and delay. So I'd only use no junior lawyers. I take a limited number of cases. I charge a premium fee but I joke that you buy my brain. You don't buy some 30 year lawyers. Brain number two it's a flat fee model. I've got a scheduled flat fee model, almost always tax deductible against the business income as a legal expense get. You get a 40, 50% discount right after that One-time fee. So we go through this process and we get it set up. Most people they need a will trust update. They need the optimized gift trust. Maybe they need this other charitable trust for income tax planning. But if you do it right, the structure is simple and it's easy to operate. At the very end of my process I've got an instruction manual. I call it. It says, hey, the lawyer set all this stuff up, but here's how you operate it. Copy the CPA, copy the investment advisor. Here's six pages. Here's what you did. Here's how to operate it. Let's have annual reviews. I don't charge for annual reviews. I don't charge for phone calls. After they've done it, they want to add some minor assets in there. We don't charge for that. You get a one-time fee and you'll get all these hourly billings. And then the third thing that I do that's pretty unique, although probably in the next two years I'll be buried, so I don't know if I can do this part always, but right now, when it's slow years, we don't have a tax law change. If I have a conversation with a new prospective client 30, 45 minute call I then get all the information I need. I work for free initially, come back about four weeks later with a full roadmap recommendation about 10 pages. So here's your objectives, here's your background. Here's exactly what I would do if I were you. Include a diagram, include those financial projections. I give it all away for free, picks me maybe eight, 10 hours, but because I've it all away for free, it takes me maybe eight, 10 hours, but because I've got all the processes, it usually takes other lawyers a lot longer than that. And then it has the fee, quote one-time fee. I'd say three out of four times people say maybe one of that. People say I like this lawyer. I see I've gotten to know him, I've gotten to see his work. I like the plan and here's what it costs one-time fee. He's not relying on junior lawyers. He's going to get this done in three phone calls, maybe two, and so they like to probably get to sample the process without having to pay 20 grand in hourly fees find out this lawyer isn't going to do it. Dave: Yeah, lots of that is really. And the thing is, even if they took your roadmap to another attorney, unless they had your level of expertise, they really couldn't execute on that roadmap anyway, right. Jonathon: Yeah, that's the thing I joke. Sometimes I say I can give you the key to my Ferrari, but I don't know. It doesn't mean you can drive it right, you could turn it on, but you're not going to know how to really use it. So that happens every now and then and I'm straight up I say look, if you shop this around, you can probably get it for half a third of the cost. Dave: But you're going to get a junior lawyer. Jonathon: You're not going to get somebody that's done this 500 times Top firm in Silicon Valley. You know you're not going to get it in two or three. I mean you just I'm doing all the drafting over time. I mean iron sharpens, iron, you get those reps. Senior lawyers are lazy, they're just sourcing business and sending it down the hall to a junior and they don't know what's going on in those documents. And if it's not done right. You're building a house for all of your wealth $450 million my client projected. If that trust isn't done right, we have client, like a lot of our clients myself, we'll spend 20, 30 grand on a kitchen remodel. But I have clients that say wait a second, I don't want to spend 50, 100 grand on this, I can get it done for 15 or 25. And I'm like do you know how important this is? This is not the area to skimp. You want to experience lawyer drafting because you can't change it later if it's not done right. Dave: Yeah Well, and then the fact that it's a, fact that it's a, it's an upfront payment. Jonathon: Like you know that they get the annual reviews for you know, right? No ongoing billings and you're working? Dave: yeah, there's huge value. It's unique it shouldn't be unique. Jonathon: In my industry it sounds like you know most industries they've come a long way. The law is still behind the times, at least in the state. Dave: Yeah, the law and in the accounting profession too. Yeah, right, so the other thing that I think people don't realize is that folks really don't need a pure custom estate plan. My sense is they need a standardized plan, right? Because I'm guessing that all of those 500 estate plans you've done fall into a small number of categories, fact patterns, right. Jonathon: I agree. There's probably about five fact patterns. You've done enough. You know this is this bucket, this is the design and then when you go through, there is customization, right, Once we go through I send out the draft gift trust. It goes out with an explanatory memo. There's 15, 20 custom decision points usually that we go through. So there's customization. But generally you're right, the design, the funding design, most of the time goes in four or five buckets. Dave: Well, it's the same reason that you know, for better, for worse, a Toyota objectively has better big build quality than a hand-built exotic car because of the repetitions and the standardizations and the perfection, and you know six Sigma, you know defect measurement, and now so I can appreciate the value of starting with a framework that's proven. I mean even just something as simple as you know when you're, if you start with standardized documents that you can search and replace, you know stuff with you're far better off than just starting with a clean slate or something that's very different than what you're going to end up. Jonathon: You're right. Yeah, I mean my process, my documents I put hundreds of hours into and I'm constantly. That's again, a benefit of doing it myself and not relying on junior lawyers is I'm constantly tweaking my forms. At least once a week there's something in a memo or something I'm going to add this or change this, and so you're constantly improving it. That happens at a lot of law firms, but again, it's usually junior lawyers that are updating, doing all that, and you don't have senior lawyers doing this over and over. Dave: So yeah. Jonathon: And again, the times suck for business owners. They, like you know, you know when I've done. Probably each of these cases takes me I don't know 10, 20 hours, all in right. If you multiply that by my billable rate, you know it's more expensive. You're buying the premium of making sure something that's been done. You know, optimized right and so yeah there's a premium. I have a buddy that jokes, or he's always asking me well, I've got this document model, this software that I can just push the buttons, like you know. Why are you charging so much? Like I said, it's so much more than just even if you get a good document. It's the funding design, it's being able to immediately respond with answers, being able to simplify complex things like we've had during this call, and spit it out in a digestible, understandable format. It's the process. It's the backend instruction manual and the front understandable format. It's the process. It's the back-end instruction manual and the front-end memo. It's all of that. That's where the value is. And again, I'm going to tell my lawyers in about 10 minutes. I'm going to talk about all this with them, because lawyers don't do this right. They don't do it. Dave: Yeah, they're really paying you not for your time, but for your expertise, knowledge, best practices, all of that. Well, hey, I know we're running up against our time limit. If somebody wants to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to reach out? Linkedin email phone. Jonathon:Email's best. jmorrison@frgalaw.com. So Frazier Ryan, goldberg, arnold, f-r-g-a-l-a-wcom, and again reach out say hey, here's my situation. Heard you on the podcast and I've got a forum process. I respond here's all the materials, here's where I think hop on a 45-minute Zoom. A paralegal usually gathers some 10 minutes of information before that. We'll run the numbers on the fly. We'll look at the stuff on the fly and see if it makes sense and I tell clients look, I make a good living. I say if this doesn't work for you, I'm happy to talk myself out of a job and tell you doesn't. But if it does, you know let's get going. Because there's so much there's no other industry that you can get thousand to one return. I mean $200 million of estate taxes saved for less than a hundred grand. No other any good financial advisor knows to run to the estate attorney, cause that's where the that's a low hanging fruit, it's the best money you can spend. And then making sure we also make sure all your kids inheritance protected from creditors. Lawsuits and divorce like that may be more important than the tax savings. Making sure that the kids inheritance is well-managed and protected, even if they have control over it. We can do it, so it's all protected so a lot of there's a lot of benefits to what I do. I love what I do and it's easy to sell because it's something I believe in. Dave: Yeah, there's a lot of. Well, Jonathan, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking time out of your day. I know you have a meeting to get to, so why don't we wrap it up and again, thank you so much for your time and have a great day. Jonathon: Thank you Wonderful, appreciate it.

In this episode of The Optimal Path, Ash Oliver discusses the future of user research with expert Dave Hora. From his beginnings in research back in 2011 to his key roles at companies like Plangrid and Instacart, Dave has been at the forefront of driving innovation through research. Now, he's here to share his thoughts on what's next for user research—discussing the growing demand for user insights, how to integrate research practices throughout the product lifecycle, and the opportunities of AI tools.Tune in to uncover how we can seize the moment and define what's next. About Dave:Dave Hora is the founder of Dave's Research Co., where he helps product leaders launch new product lines with the right mix of data, insight, and common sense. He began professional research work in 2011, eventually starting the practice as the first research hire at six companies, including PlanGrid and Instacart. He now works with companies across the globe and writes extensively on the topic of research and its co-evolution with the product practice. Connect with Dave:You can connect with Dave on LinkedIn Resources:The Future of User Research Report by MazeUser Research and Its Inevitable Evolution by Dave HoraWhither UX Research? by Peter MerholzThe UX Research Reckoning is Here by Judd AntinEmpathy: The importance of how we speak about ourselves, Maze Disco Conf presentation by Kyle OsborneThe next frontier for research: Building organizations that learn by Behzod SirjaniJust Enough Research by Erika HallBad research doesn't stink by Carl Pearson, PhDThe Mistake Almost Everyone Makes When Doing User Research by Behzod SirjaniFostering a culture of organizational learning with Roy Opata OlendeThe Democratization of User Research is a Red Herring by Peter MerholzThe Nature of Order by Christopher W. AlexanderThe Timeless Way of Building by Christopher W. AlexanderA Pattern Language by Christopher AlexanderInterviewing Users: How to Uncover Compelling Insights by Steve Portigal Follow Maze on Social Media:X: @mazedesignHQInstagram: @mazedesignHQLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mazedesignTo get notified when new episodes come out, subscribe at maze.co/podcast.See you next time!

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (EX-IM) provides valuable insights into how this 90-year-old institution supports American exporters through strategic financial services. I also learned that EX-IM is one of just two governmental agencies that is an actual profit center. ​ Before joining EX-IM, Eric worked for a privately-held exporter that was a customer of EX-IM. His expertise both inside and outside of EX-IM sheds light on crucial products like export credit insurance, export financing, and financing for foreign buyers. These solutions can alleviate common hurdles inhibiting international trade growth. ​ We also talk through some real-world examples of these various EXIM solutions. This is a must-listen episode for any company doing substantial direct exports.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im Bank) discusses the role of the bank in aiding exporting companies with financial services, operating without costing taxpayers. We delve into how Ex-Im Bank and the Small Business Administration (SBA) offer loan guarantees and insurance to boost companies' borrowing capacity. Eric shares insights into export credit insurance and how Ex-Im Bank's products can help resolve common financial challenges in international transactions. The discussion covers Ex-Im Bank's new domestic project finance product, designed to support projects that have a significant export component. We touch on the requirement for a U.S. majority in product content, aiming to foster manufacturing and job growth in the United States. Eric explains the importance of services, like engineering and architectural services for foreign projects, requiring a U.S. majority for cost. We discuss government resources that can aid businesses in exporting, such as tax incentives and the Gold Key service provided by the U.S. Commercial Services. The episode highlights the STEP grant, a federal program managed by states to support companies with export-related expenses. Eric and I settle the Tex-Mex vs. BBQ debate with an appreciation for both, adding a lighthearted twist to the episode. Contact information for Eric Miller is shared for listeners who wish to connect and further explore export financing options. Contact Details Email (eric.miller@xmexim.gov) Phone Number (713-306-7969) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Export-Import Bank of the United States GUEST Eric MillerAbout Eric TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Eric Miller of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, colloquially known by the acronym of XM. More useful takeaways for privately held exporting companies than any guest I've ever had. We talked about the history of the XM, its purpose and the four service offerings that they have for privately held exporting businesses. We also talked about three other governmental arms that can also be of value. The other interesting thing about Eric is he actually was a customer of XM early in his career when he was a minority owner of an exporting business. So Eric's a really dynamic guy. He's really passionate about serving exporting companies and he really understands what it's like to be in the shoes of their customers. I really recommend you take a listen to this one. It's really valuable hey good morning Eric. Welcome to the podcast. Eric: Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor. Thank you. Dave: Well, the pleasure is all mine. So where are you connecting from today? What part of the world are you in at the moment? Eric: The great state of Texas. I'm in the Houston area, born and raised in Texas and been all over the world, but this is home. Oh, that's awesome. Dave: In fact, I think you even stayed close for college, right. Eric: I did. I'm a Cougar alumni, so a proud Houston native. Dave: Awesome, so I'm really excited to have you on. You are with the Export Import Bank of the United States, correct? Correct so we also go by XM Bank, sorry. Eric: Yep. Dave: So tell me about XM, tell me about the kind of the history of the organization and why it exists, and then we'll get it. We'll see where the conversation goes. Eric: Yeah, no, it's a good question. I'm biased, of course, working here, but I think it's one of the most fascinating government agencies that exist. We're set up in the executive branch of the federal government. We've been around for 90 years. Most people haven't heard of us. We are small. We've got anywhere between 400 and 500 people as a part of the agency. Most are headquartered in Washington DC, but we do have a dozen regional offices scattered throughout the US and all the major cities. I cover the Houston office and in doing so, I work with exporters in the great state of Texas and help them export more US made products and services. That's really what we're about here at XM Bank is supporting our US companies that are exporting a US made good or service. We're on the finance side of that help. There's other government agencies. Throughout the whole process of a transaction, whether it's finding buyers, whether it's financing a transaction or even getting grant money to help you export. There's other support, but EXIM is specific on the finance piece. Dave: Okay, and so does EXIM. At the end of the day, you know, does this cost taxpayers, you know, billions of dollars to have this thing in place. Eric: Yeah, that's another good question. So you know, we're one of the few agencies historically that have actually built a surplus of money for the taxpayer. In other words, we're using less than we're making and we send money back to Treasury. It changes year to year, but historically, if you look over the past you the past 20, 30 years we're generating a surplus and sending that back to treasury, so costing taxpayers billions of dollars. No, we like to operate a little differently than a government agency. We are an independent government agency, which means we're not inside a cabinet, but we are set up in the executive branch and we like to say we run at the speed of business Internally, we're very efficient, we're very effective and we're very aggressive, trying to reach out to US companies and get them involved in helping them. Dave: Well, that is awesome. I think it sounds like just a win, right. It's a win for the taxpayers. It's actually a profit center, if you will, for the taxpayers. It's good for the exporters, it's good for the country. Am I correct? I think the only other government agency I've ever heard of that's a profit center is like the Patent and Trademark Office. Have you heard that too? Eric: I think you're right. Now, I haven't researched that myself, just in passing and conversations I've heard of the same and there might be one or two others out there. But yeah, it's an unusual feat of a government agency to kind of generate that surplus for a taxpayer and send it back to Treasury. We do charge, you know, fees and that's how the agency itself makes and brings in money. We charge fees for our different products and you know we have products like export credit insurance. To just kind of dive into what we do, yeah, let's do that In export credit insurance to just kind of dive into what we do yeah let's do that In export credit insurance. So let me take a couple steps back. When an exporter engages in international business, when they find a foreign buyer in a country and they say, hey, here's what I sell, whether it's a product or service, there's always a sticking point. If you will product or service, there's always a sticking point if you will in the negotiations, when it comes to money flow. And what I mean by that is the exporter will say, hey, I'll ship my product or I'll do the service, but go ahead and wire me money before I ship it. And then the importer, the buyer there's always a reluctance to say well, I don't want to wire you money, because what if you close your doors? I never hear from you again. So when there's a new relationship and there's a transaction that's trying to occur, money, the movement of money, is always a sticking point. Who sends it first? And exporters lose a lot of deals because of this. I speak to exporters on a daily basis and every week there's at least one that says I wish I would have known about this. It would have helped me with the last negotiation I had with a foreign buyer who said you know, ship me the product on open account and I'll pay you 60 days later. I wasn't comfortable with that as an exporter so I closed the door and lost the deal. So XM gets involved and we say no, go ahead. And you know, if they're asking for credit terms, go ahead and provide that to them and we will back you up on the payment. We will insure that receivable from default. So if something goes wrong and the foreign buyer doesn't pay back the exporter as intended, we will insure it. They put a claim into us. So when I say claim, just like any other insurance policy, right, you're driving a car and you get to an accident, you file a claim. Something goes wrong with the house, you file a claim with the home insurance provider. We're no different. We're an insurance provider on foreign receivables and the government gets involved in this space because you know, david, look at the trade deficit. Last year we're nearing a trillion dollars. Most years, from year to year in the last 10 years, it's getting worse and worse. So what I mean by that is we're bringing in way more than we're sending out, and what we have found through our research as a government agency is the number one reason more US companies are not sending more product abroad is the number one reason is fear. They are fearful of what that process looks like and the government gets involved. Then we say let's take away that fear. We'll put the risk on our shoulders as it relates to credit insurance. Go ahead and give your foreign buyer terms or open account. We'll shoulder the risk and if they don't pay you, we'll pay you. And we want to help the trade deficit. We want to as a government agency. We want to stimulate US manufacturing. We want to create jobs through exports. That's really what the mission is here at Ex-Im Bank. Dave: Okay, yeah, no, that's really good. And do you specifically underwrite each customer? You know each foreign customer, or is there just you guys? Just use some general parameters. Eric: Yeah, no, it's a good question, like what does that process look like? So we have four different credit insurance policies. We can do everything from hey, we'll underwrite every buyer if you're not comfortable with it. Or hey, we'll give you a policy where you can do your own underwriting according to our credit standards but give you that autonomy inside your company to do it without coming to us every time there's a buyer. So there's different approaches. Most exporters like the autonomy because they can approve a credit right then and there, rather than sending us the paperwork and then us process it and then get back to them. So it just depends on timeline. But yeah, we can do either. Dave: And does the policy insure 100% of the invoice or is there a co-insurance piece where your customer is taking some of the risk? Eric: So the coverage will be anywhere from 90 or 95%, depending on which policy. Most of them are in that 95% range, but some of them are in the 90. Okay, they have the option. Dave: Yeah. So it's enough that as long as the company's got decent margins right, if their margin's greater than 5% or 10%, then their risk is just if a deal goes bad. They didn't make any money on that deal. Eric: That's a fair way of looking at it? Dave: Yep, but they have enough skin in the game that they do want to make a profit on that transaction. They want to all that trouble. So they have a motivation to not, you know, sell to people who you know they have serious concerns about their ethics or integrity or ability to pay. Eric: Exactly, and that's really what it's all about. Hey, I've got a new relationship and you know, name a country. They're asking for open account. And open account, you know, most people are comfortable with that in the US. They have a recourse in mind. Hey, if I don't pay, here's the process where I can recoup. But that all goes away when you send it to a foreign country. Like you know, how do I even get my money if I don't? I'm dealing with a different legal environment, political currency, culture, I mean. The list goes on and on. So that's where, wherein lies the fear for the exporter. And there's government agencies, both local, state and federal, all of them. We want to surround the exporter, prop them up, take away the fear, shoulder the risk and get them comfortable in international business. Dave: Okay, so you may mention the one person you were talking to that said they wish they'd known about XM because they kind of lost this deal. Do you have another case study, if you will, or example and obviously you don't have to mention the specific company by name where everything did work out kind of a success story, where maybe they were not exporting much but with this credit insurance it really helped them materially increase their sales? Do you have any examples like that, just to help people further understand? Eric: Oh yeah, we have a whole list of resources on our website. There's a section dedicated to success stories of all the different companies and we like to diversify the industry and the product and we've got you name it and it's probably up there. One that just immediately comes to mind is a company and they've been kind of a strong advocate of Ex-Im Bank. They're called BuzzBalls and it's alcohol manufactured here in Texas in the Dallas area, and they were very successful domestically. I mean, you can find these little alcohol glasses basically in any kind of retail store in the US. But as they looked abroad they wanted to de-risk a lot of their open account with distributors and really I think the last I heard they either doubled or tripled the revenue by focusing on foreign buyers, distributing it to the distributors, the foreign distributors giving them credit to pay and Ex-Im Bank insuring the risk. I mean, it's just one interesting example that you know, if little cups of alcohol can move abroad, mostly anything can. Dave: Oh, that's great, I love that and thank you for that. Thank you for that example. So now let's say that a company is contemplating exporting and let's say they have this large potential order you know large for them, you say it's a $5 million company annual revenues and suddenly they have this pay for the materials from their supplier and they maybe don't have enough working capital to do that and maybe they're in a spot where you know a traditional bank loan or line of credit. They're maybe, just maybe what you'd call not bankable. What happens then? Does the whole process just fall apart? You know they've got the credit insurance but they don't have the cash to buy the goods. What happens then? Eric: Yeah, that's really the second big problem in international trade. So the US banking system in general is challenging to help US companies fill export orders, and what I mean by that is, in your example, a $5 million revenue company. It can even be bigger than that, it could be 20, 30, 40. The problem with a lot of US companies is when their foreign sales start to get significant and they go to the bank and say, hey, I need a line of credit, not just for my domestic business, I need it for my international too. There becomes a problem in the banking system. There's this view that it's high risk and, as bankers tend to be more conservative and shy away from risk, so most times US companies have problems getting the money they need to fill these export purchase orders. So government gets involved, Ex-Im gets involved and SBA also has a product similar to the Ex-Im bank. It varies according to the banker who wants to use the product, but the idea behind it is we become a guarantor of repayment to the lender. So in your example, $5 million a year company, $2 million foreign sale that we're going to insure they walk that over to the bank and they say, hey, I got insurance on the receivable. Great, it's a $2 million deal. Now I need a million bucks or whatever as a line of credit to build all this stuff or go out and buy it. The bank will say, okay, where's it going? Oh, it's leaving the country. I can't help you. But when you come back with a US purchase order, then we can get serious in our talks. The company is stranded and they can't get the money, the capital they need to fill these orders with working capital. So we get involved and we say, hey, if they're presenting financial statements and the financial statements merit the ability to borrow what they're asking for a million, whatever it is and you're only saying no because it's an export, go ahead and give them the money that they need that they're asking for again, as long as it meets the credit standards, and we'll co-sign, we become a repayment guarantor to that line of credit so they can have access to the money that they need to fill these foreign buyer purchase orders. Guarantees and insurance is really kind of what we're about here at Ex-Im Bank to enable this cross-border trade. On the finance piece, Now, with that line of credit that we guarantee, they could also use it to issue bid bonds or performance bonds or standby letters of credit. Because another problem in our banking system is when a exporter bids on a foreign tender, that tender sometimes will say hey, if you want to bid on this, you got to put up a performance bond or a bid bond and that kind of weeds out the non-serious suppliers versus the serious. And when they want to supply that bid bond and they go to the bank, put the equivalent amount of cash in your account, I'll escrow it and then issue the bond. And then the exporter you know has this confused look. And well, I don't want to pay for my own deal and block my own cash. So under the XM line of credit you can actually use borrowed money to issue those bid bonds, performance bonds, standby LCs at a reduced cash collateral, so you're not tying up your cash. Dave: Interesting. Eric: And what's the? Dave: typical I think the term like if you're factoring an invoice, it's called. I think it's called like the advance rate, like what percentage you could borrow, like on the you know the purchase order or the invoice that you create. What's that percentage? You know, through the XM financing. Eric: So we put it into two categories pre-export and post-export. Okay, pre-export is the working capital right, the inventory, work in process, finished goods. So under that you could borrow a 75% advance rate. Then post-export, once it becomes a receivable, you could borrow 90. So it's pretty generous advance rates and typically it helps exporters fill these purchase orders much easier if we weren't involved. Dave: Yeah, Cause I think I was a CFO of a company many years ago and we were growing rapidly and we're using factoring and the. It seems like the advance rate we were able to get on the factoring for domestic sales, let alone international, was only like 70 or 80%. So, and even I think I'm told that even if a company has a line of credit that they're backing with inventory and domestic receivables, that still a typical kind of advance rate is really only like I think, about 80. And so you're talking about an even higher, if I'm using the correct term, than what a traditional bank would provide to a traditional bankable customer for a domestic sale. Is that accurate, based on your knowledge? Eric: Yeah, very accurate. And sometimes you know I go back to the example of US banks don't like export orders, and they don't. Sometimes they will give an advantage. They've got a traditional line of credit set up for domestic. They may say we'll let you borrow 10, 20, 30% advance rate on the export stuff. With our guarantee we can expand that to 75, up to 90. So it could be that we expand the borrowing base or just let alone get them access to it for export orders, with our guarantee. Dave: Okay, yeah, this is really valuable and I can't wait to get the word out to our contacts. So, on the working capital piece so how does that work then? Is the process that they call up their bank and say, hey, do you guys do anything with XM and they just work purely through their banker? Or do they call you up and say, hey, we need some working capital? We don't really have a big banking relationship. Can you recommend somebody? Help me understand the logistics? Eric: of it, Absolutely. Yeah, it's a good question. We recommend starting with us. It's very easy to get lost in the banking system and trying to figure out who to talk to about getting the setup. A lot of time exporters will speak to their local relationship manager and they start talking about XM working capital and they're like you know who's XM? I don't, I don't even know what you're talking about. Slow down, so it's more efficient to start with us and if they're working with a bank that is in our lender network, we can go directly to the right person and connect them with the exporter to have those conversations. If they're working with a lender that is not inside our our network, we can still locate a lender to set up kind of a XM specific line of credit if that's something they want to pursue. Dave: Okay. Eric: Okay. Dave: Now this is really valuable. Does the bank have any other service lines besides the foreign receivables insurance and the working capital? Eric: We've got a couple others. One of them is called foreign buyer finance. Okay, this is a real interesting one. This is when a US company is selling capital equipment to a foreign buyer and when that capital equipment quotation gets to the foreign buyer, what we see often is they'll go to their bank. In some of these emerging markets, developing countries, the buyer will go to the bank and say, ok, you know, I got a quotation for, let's say, you know, john Deere equipment, ag equipment or Caterpillar, construction equipment or mining equipment, whatever. They go to their bank and they say I need to borrow to pay the US company for the equipment. And when they get a term sheet from their local bank, if you're familiar with international business and international finance, the cost can be much higher than what we're used to paying in the US as far as cost of capital Cost of capital I've seen even triple and quadruple in some of these developing markets. And then the buyer the deal falls to the wayside because the buyer can't afford to pay the bank all this cost associated with the capital. So in situations like that and kind of high cost capital markets, we can get involved and find a lender, as long as we've got good audited financial statements and they meet credit standards, we can find a lender to give that foreign buyer a term loan, a three to seven year term loan, of which we guarantee repayment of to the lender, to buy that US made capital equipment. So, in simple terms, we can finance a foreign buyer when the foreign buyer is buying US made equipment, and what we have found is the US companies that really know this product inside and out use that as a competitive advantage. They're saying, hey, sure, on one hand, here's my quotation for the equipment and on the other hand, I can get you finance if you need it. And I can get you finance if you need it. And the companies that do that well, I mean their sales shoot through the roof because now they become this finance facilitator for foreign buyers to access cheaper capital, which we've even seen companies where maybe they're 10% higher on the bid than some of the other countries, but they're saving them 15% on the finance. Dave: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that that's really clever. I was familiar with the first two pieces, but I really was not familiar with that. I mean, yeah, that's a real competitive advantage. I mean it makes you wonder how a company in I don't know pick your country, brazil, that you know is trying to compete Like how do they compete when they can't? I'm guessing that they probably don't have the same type of capability to offer you know these, you know more attractive financing rates. Eric: So, yeah, that's a great point XM Bank we're also referred as an export credit agency, eca. So every developed country in the world has the equivalent of us. Out of, let's say, roughly 200 countries, there's 120 of us representing the nation of each country. So what we know is, as it relates to international business, there are, you know, foreign. When there's foreign competition in the tender, sometimes that foreign competition knows about their local ECA also. Right, so they could be offering the same thing. Hey, I can get you, you know, finance through my local ECA. You know name, a country, country. So we want companies in the US to be aware of how we can help them and support them, just like other member countries of partner ECAs do, because it's a competitive advantage and if they're not aware of it, it's a loss really for the exporter. And I mentioned four products. So we went over export credit insurance, the working capital getting the foreign buyer a loan, and then the fourth one. It came out about a year and a half ago. It's a new product that we're super excited about and it's really domestic project finance where there's an export nexus. And what I mean by that, david, is let's take an industry, let's take LNG. When an LNG liquid natural gas. When liquid natural gas projects in wherever let's call it Texas, when they go live and you've got a solid entity set up for the purpose of building an LNG plant maybe there's corporate shareholders, maybe there's individual shareholders, whatever it may be when banks take a look at this and they see that it's a domestic project finance structure meaning the off of any kind of contract will repay the loan Bankers don't like that. Bankers don't like project finance. If we look at a project where there's an export nexus and what we define as an export nexus is 25% of the sales will be exported we could potentially be a lender or a loan guarantor to that domestic project as long as there's going to be 25% foreign sales, and we could go down to 15% if it's a small business, so we can involve oh, that's really cool. Dave: Yeah, because I mentioned the bank is going to say, yeah, it sounds like a great opportunity. Go find some investors to fund this and then, once you start exporting the LNG, give us a call. We'll give you some working capital and you'll work with XM to ensure the receivables, but until then, hey, it's on you. Eric: That's it. That's the problem. That's where a lot of these projects get stuck in the banking system as it relates to traditional banking. They can't get the money they need to lift this project up, and it could be a great project, but yeah, banks like to see history right. I want to see your balance sheet income statement, cash flow last three years. Let me underwrite it Well, there is none. It's a new project and we're building it. Well, we can't help you Go find some investors, and that's typically the conversations. So, instead of these deals disappearing, as long as there is solid offtake agreements, we can look at that, potentially to repay the loan, and we do that on the foreign buyer side too. Dave: Yeah, and to be fair to the bankers I know many bankers and have great relationships If a bank is paying 5% for a deposit and they're lending it out at, say, 8%, by the time they pay their fees and stuff they really don't have a lot of margin left. So you know they have an imputed default rate. You know that they can tolerate of like half a percent, right, maybe 1%, right. I mean, that's just their model. Eric: Margins are thin, you're right. Dave: Yeah, and they're probably even I'm guessing even prohibited from saying okay, yeah, we'll finance this deal for you, but this is high risk. So instead of a 7% loan, it's gonna be 30%. I mean, the banks probably aren't even allowed to do. There's probably usury laws or something. Am I correct in that? Eric: Yeah, yeah. So they would definitely view the risk differently as a domestic project finance. But I would say, even more so, the regulatory issues involving domestic project finance probably prohibit the lenders from doing that. Dave: Even oh yeah, yeah, that's right. I never thought about that. Eric: There's definitely some challenges in that space. I never thought about that. There's definitely some challenges in that space. Dave: Yeah, that makes sense because really, from a holistic perspective, you would say hey, bank, this isn't your sweet spot. This is like venture capital, risk capital. Let them find a lender, like a hard asset lender, that'll charge a much higher rate, or let them raise equity capital to finance this. This isn't what you're designed for, mr First National Bank, Exactly. Eric: Okay. Dave: What are some of the limits, minimum maximums for these different products? Let's start with the credit insurance. Is there a minimum size that you all have insurance? Is there a minimum size like that you all have? I mean, I'm guessing if somebody has a hundred dollar foreign receivable that they want to insure, probably doesn't really make sense for everybody. So is there a minimum size? Is it a hard minimum or kind of a soft minimum? Eric: Yeah, that's a great question. So we don't have a minimum per se, documented minimum, but yeah, it's got to make sense right To go through the process. So I mean, we've insured receivables as low as a couple thousand bucks, so that's for credit insurance. For working capital we also don't have a minimum, but that's set by the lender. So we say hey, as long as the lender will do the loan, we'll take a look at the guarantee and most lenders that we have spoken to we probably would say that the minimum with most lenders is around a half a million for a working capital line of credit. And then on the foreign buyer side, again it's got to make sense to the lender. We don't have a minimum. Most lenders, I would say the minimum I've seen where a US lender would give a loan to a foreign buyer is also around a half a million. Maximum, no maximum, but anything above 25 million has to go to our board. The largest we did in the bank's history was in Mozambique, for an LNG facility was 5 billion. Oh wow. Dave: And then are there limits on the working capital and credit insurance, similar limits that require board approval. Eric: Anything above 25. Yep, it's the same 25 number, correct, which it's. You know it's not prohibitive, it just adds another layer to the process. Yeah. Dave: And even again, even if XM wasn't involved, I know a lot of banks, just you know, when loans get above a certain amount they want to syndicate them with other banks, just for their own risk. And I think a lot of times those syndication amounts for a medium-sized bank will start in that 10 to $25 million, as I understand it. And then what about the domestic projects that have 25% export expectations, any minimum or maximums there that you've seen? Eric: So I would say there's no hard set minimum, but the soft minimum I'm seeing is probably 5 million plus and the reason for that is the SBA, the Small Business Administration, also a federal government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency, so it's five below. Sba might be a better fit. Five above we're probably the only game in town. Okay, zero to five, taking some notes on this Five plus. Dave: You know, one of the other interesting things is we've had this conversation that if you think people have never heard of XM, they're even, I think, less likely to have heard of the ICDISC program. You know we specialize and what's interesting is how is the number of parallels? I mean, the thing that I can't, you know that blows me away is how logical everything is with XM. Like you know, there's a, you know there's a perhaps a belief that some government programs, agencies that there's no real logic to it. It was just it was some negotiation in Congress and they had just some arbitrary rules. But you know, as I kind of look at these, they just all seems very logical, right? And you know, like you know, above a certain amount you need board approval Again, just like in a bank, right, when they're doing a $25 million loan, it's probably got to go to a loan review committee or something. But the other thing is there's some similarities between XM and the ICDISC and one of them is the 51% US content. Can you explain how that works with XM, because I think it's pretty much the same as ICDISC. Eric: To my knowledge it is also yeah. So it goes back to really the mission right Creating jobs through US exports, and we want to stimulate US manufacturing. So we can't support a trade where you know Houston companies buying from China and sending it down to you know name a country in South America. There's no value add for the country. So Congress basically put a policy to the agency that says anything that we support has to be greater than 50% US content. So another way of saying it's just 51%. Right, majority of the product has to be US content, and the way that we calculate that is we look at the cost. So if they're selling a widget that they sell for $100, but it costs $70, we're going to look at the $70 and say $30 of that, 70 needs to be US content. So that's really we look at the cost and the majority of the cost needs to be US made, whether it's product. Dave: Or another way of saying it is no more than $36 foreign cost Yep, that makes sense. Eric: And if it's a service, by the way, sometimes we get these service questions, by the way, because sometimes we get these service questions where, hey, you know, I'm an engineering company designing, you know, a refinery plant for a foreign buyer. How do I look at that as far as US content? So what we do is we say, okay, start with your invoice. Right, whatever you're billing out, if it says engineering services or CAD drawings or whatever, take that and then look at the cost and greater than 50% needs to be US citizens or green card holders as part of that cost for services. So we basically look at the citizenship of the provider for evaluating US content and the cost. Dave: Yeah, and that's somewhat similar to the ICDISC really only includes two types of services that are eligible engineering services and architectural services for foreign construction projects or services that are an integral part of the sale. You know, like if you sell a product for a million dollars and there's a $200,000 installation service, as long as that's an integral part of the, you know the project that qualifies, you know that service does. But yeah, that's interesting. So let's say somebody says hey, you know, eric, I really like the sound of this and I'd like to talk to you. But you know, I just feel like you know, you're probably a lifelong government employee. You probably want to work right out of college. You don't know what it's like to sit in my shoes. You don't know what it's like to have been on the private side. You know having these foreign customers. What would you say to them? Eric: Yeah, so being a government employee is new to me also, yeah, so after college I started at a company and worked there for a decade, grew into sweat equity. I was a part minority shareholder and I was a customer of Ex-Im Bank for 10 years. Yeah, we were a company that exported capital equipment all over the world, but with a concentration in Sub-Saharan Africa. Okay, and we grew rapidly with the help of Ex-Im Bank. We used all the products of credit insurance, the working capital, getting the foreign buyer a loan and that really became a competitive advantage to the company. Because we looked at ourselves saying, hey, we're an equipment supplier, but so is the other hundreds of companies around, if not thousands of companies. How do we make ourselves different? And the finance became very important to that conversation, because you can Google, search equipment companies in the US and you're going through thousands of pages trying to find an equipment supplier. But not everybody is saying, hey, we have financial solutions too. If you need them, we can get you a loan. We can sell to you an open account with our insurance. We can get the capital we need to fill these export purchase orders. We can get the line of credit that we need to send bid bonds and performance bonds to some of these large tenders. So, going back to your question, I've been at Exxon for seven years, but the majority of my career was in the private sector and being a minority shareholder of a company that used the bank that I work for now to grow a small business. Dave: What a great story, like it would seem like you have the perfect background for your role I mean, you're actually a customer for your role. I mean you're actually a customer. So the private companies that you're trying to help you really do understand what it's like to be in their shoes. Eric: I think most employees that work here at ExxonMobil found we're very service oriented. We like to help. We like to help. It's fun for us to help. It's fun for me to help. The best part of my day is meeting small business exporters, helping them become aware of all the resources that are available to them to become more competitive and grow, like we did when I was with that company. Dave: Yeah, it's just amazing how similar our days are. That's also the favorite part of my job is when I get a phone call from somebody and they say hey, you know, bob said I should call you. You know we're. Our exports have really grown a lot, and there's this thing called ICDISC and you know, tell us about it, are we the right fit? And it's great to be able to help them. Oh, I was just going to ask you something. Oh, what about indirect exports? Do they qualify under an indirect export? Eric: Great question, yeah, so under the working capital it does. So if you have an exporter that's selling to you know name a major company, let's say a major oil and gas company who in turn is exporting that out, we call that an indirect export. That does qualify them to get the capital they need to fill that order. Dave: Yep, Another parallel with the IC disk. The IC disk is the same way. Yeah, Most of our clients are actually indirect exporters. So some of the products would not be as beneficial, you know, like the credit insurance, for example, because they don't have any foreign receivables. But you know, they don't have any foreign receivables, but they still may have use for some of the other products. Okay, so I've got just a couple more questions. Eric: Well, first off, is there anything we didn't cover that you wish I had? I would say there's other government resources that every exporter should know. Dave: Okay, what are those? Eric: Yeah, so one of them is the US Commercial Services. They're a part of the Department of Commerce and they've got an office in every major city in the US. I think there's a hundred, if I remember right, a hundred US Commercial Service offices scattered throughout the US. If you're in Houston, there's one in Houston. Great folks, we work with them closely. They've got some really good products as well for exporters. One of them is called the Gold Key, and the Gold Key it basically connects buyer and seller. So once the agency understands the company, they met with them. They understand the company, they understand what they're selling. They have to be what's called export ready. So an existing business that's already selling, let's say they're successful here domestically and they want to export. You know, let's say that to the, to our closest neighbors, first Canada and Mexico. But they're like hey, I don't, how do I even do that? How do I find a buyer, how do I find a distributor in these countries? That's really the first step in kind of the. The maze of exporting is first you got, you have to have a buyer. We're kind of second to that right. Once you have a buyer, then it's money talks and then we get involved. But even before us. The commercial services can get involved and under the gold key they can find distributors, partners, buyers in foreign markets. Wow, yeah, under the gold key. So they basically, once they understand the business, they work with the embassy in that country and say, hey, I've got, you know, bob, here's his company, been around for 10 years, successful in the U? S, but they want to start with Mexico. And can you find them buyers, can you find them distributors? And they try to play matchmaker. So they generate a list and they recommend going to the country that you want to export to shake hands, stare them in the face, sit down with them physically, because that's another important thing in international business you can't just stay behind the phone or email. You really have to go to these places. Dave: Wow, so that's amazing. Now the bad news, Eric, is you and XM may have just dropped to number two as far as my favorite government agency. I mean, depending on where a company is, that might be even more valuable, right? Because without the customers, they don't even need the other products of XM. That's really cruel. Eric: That's right yeah. I mean they need a buyer before they come to XM. They need a foreign buyer and commercial services can help with that. Dave: So be careful. You're about to list some other agencies and may further knock you down on the priority list, so be careful there. Eric: That's OK, we're here to help. So you know. Another problem with small businesses you know I'm selling domestically. You know successful I'm selling domestically. You know I'm successful. Maybe I'm running on thin margins. I don't have the capital that I need to go into all these countries and spend all this money and cross my fingers that I get business. And I just don't want to spend that kind of money and risk that kind of money because I need to keep my lights on and pay employees first. So there's something called the STEP grant S-T-E-P grant. Dave: STEP grant. Eric: It stands for statewide trade export promotion, so most states participate in it. It's federal money given to the states who in turn give grant money to companies who are looking to export, and they can use that grant money for travel you know, hotel, stay, airfare. They want to do website translation on their website from you know English to Mandarin and Spanish to. You know capture half the world. They want to. You know create design, create print flyers. You know any kind of marketing collateral that will aid them in promoting their company to foreign buyers. This is a reimbursable grant, which means you apply for it. You can say, hey, I want to go to Mexico, my airfare is going to cost this, my hotel is going to cost this, conference in Mexico is going to cost this, and all together it's going to be $10,000. So you apply for it and then, once approved, you can get up to 75% of that back. Dave: So you have to actually spend the money. Eric: First you got to spend. That's the key thing there. You got to spend the money, but you got to get it approved. Once it's approved, then you spend the money and then you come back and give them your receipts. Dave: Wow, that's pretty cool. Does that fall under one of the federal agencies? Is that kind of the ultimate umbrella, or is it really more of a state by state program? Eric: In Texas the Department of Ag is administering the fund and I think it does vary state by state on who holds the money and approves it and disperses the money, and I may be wrong, but I think it goes up to $10,000. It's either $7,500 or $10,000 max amount that can be approved. Okay, you can apply every year. Some companies do that. Okay, and what else? Are there some other? The SBA, small Business Administration Sure, most people know them for domestic business, but they also have an export arm called the OIT, which is Office of International Trade. So they have export finance products just like we do. They're not competitive to one another. They're slightly different in various aspects. They can get you working capital, usually for smaller loans, or they can get you something called an international trade loan and what that is used for is like, hey, I need to buy some capital equipment to go into my factory and it's going to cost a million bucks and it's going to generate export sales, that kind of finance structure. Dave: Is the structure kind of the same, or does the borrower have to put up a bigger percentage? Or do you know? Eric: For the international trade loan. I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender. The international trade loan I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender and lenders. You know, we like to say the lender makes the decision because our guarantees are slightly different than one another. So some lenders will say, hey, I'm more comfortable with XM, or hey, I'm more comfortable with the SBA, or hey, this is above $5 million. The only one you could do is XM Bank. So it's really up to the lender to evaluate the guarantee and what fits them best. Dave: Well, that is awesome. Any other government agencies that you tend to work with regularly those are the big ones. Eric: They'll always be in the same circles the SBA, the commercial services, and ourselves in the same circles, promoting as much as we can to our communities. Dave: That's awesome. Well, this has been so informative. I really appreciate the time. I just have two more questions, and they're really kind of fun ones, okay. So the first one is if you could go back in time and give advice to yourself, like right, when you were graduating college, what advice might you give to yourself? You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, if you kind of go back in time. Eric: What advice might you? Dave: give to yourself. You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know if you kind of go back in time what advice might you give to yourself, you know? Things to do instead, or do sooner, or what comes to mind. Eric: That's a really good question, you know, going back in time, I would say, for the company that I worked for and some of the things that I don't like to say did wrong. But if we could repeat it and how we would do it differently. When the business grows and we grew fast our operational costs also grew fast and I think if we were better controlling the operational cost when there was a dip in revenue, there wouldn't be so much growing pains or slowing pains. I think getting a better grasp operationally on a business when it's going through the growth phase is key to its long-term success, because a business is not always going to accelerate up. There's going to be peaks and valleys and as long as you manage the operational cost of the company, it can get through. You know look at COVID right Nobody predicted that how many businesses went through all kinds of painful experiences. So that, going back in time, just from a business standpoint, I think that would have been super helpful in our judgment and assessment of looking towards the future. Dave: Okay, I really like that. Well, we just have one left, and this one's even more fun. Don't think about this, I just want. It's kind of a snap answer. Okay, so you're a native Texan, right Native Houstonian, tex-mex or barbecue. Eric: Oh, I got to go with Tex-Mex. I love barbecue, barbecue. Oh, I gotta go with tex-mex. I love barbecue, but you know the chips and queso and salsa and guacamole. Dave: I don't think everything competes with that. Yeah, I, I asked this question of all my guests and and I had two answers that were interesting. One answer was if it's, if I know that the food is going to be average, I, I absolutely would take the Tex-Mex, because Tex-Mex has more tolerance for averageness. Ok, they said. But if it's going to be world class, then they would take the barbecue. But they don't want mediocre, tough, dried out brisket. Ok, so I'm like, well, that's a good one. And then I had a guest telling me about I forget the name of the place, but it was a place that had like brisket tacos or brisket enchiladas, and they basically said both, they'll take both. Eric: There you go. I like that. Dave: Yeah, I am with you. If people want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Are you very active on LinkedIn? Eric: Not super active on LinkedIn, but I'm very accessible Cell phone, email, office phone. You can always get ahold of me. Dave: What's the email address? Eric: So ericmiller M-I-L--LE-R X-M-E-X-I-Mgov gov. Dave: So eric.miller@xmexim.gov and if they want to just call you, what's the best number to reach you? Eric: at 713-306-7969 awesome. Dave: well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here. This may be the most information dense episode I've ever done for an exporter. Usually it seems like we've got one or two good nuggets, but we may have a dozen takeaways, so thank you so much for making time out of your day and this has really been fun. And don't be surprised when this goes live if you don't have a few folks reaching out to you. Eric: I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. It's been an honor. Special Guest: Eric Miller.

On today's episode, Dave and Liz are joined by Clay and Sonja Arnold, relationalcoaches and communication experts, to discuss safe conversations - what they are and how couples can use them to decrease negativity and foster more connection in their relationships. Timestamps: 0:00 – Introduction: Who are Sonja & Clay Arnold?2:23 – What exactly is a safe conversation & how did it get started?4:56 – Sentence Stems - phrases used to keep us from triggering negative responses6:09 – “Is there more about that?”8:28 – Make an appointment to talk with your partner first; ask “is now a good time to talkabout [blank]”11:03 – Why is effectively listening to our partner so difficult to do?14:04 – Couples should strive for zero negativity in their conversations16:25 – Owning your mistakes & making repairs quickly19:05 – Address the negativity in your relationship; don't ignore it because it'll just stack up22:33 – Imago Therapy - what it is & how it affects who we choose to marry24:56 – If our spouse grows, we grow26:48 – Conflict is growth waiting to happen29:01 – Don't ever stop having fun with your partner31:37 – Empathy is about trying to connect with your partner & find out what they're feeling33:26 – Always be willing to learn35:15 – Sonja's takeaway: Don't feel like you're lacking because of your struggles. Don't struggleby yourself. Reach out. Don't go it alone.35:39 – Clay's takeaway: Be willing to learn and grow individually and in your relationship36:10 – Liz's takeaway: Ask your partner if it's a good time to talk about something and thenstart with a compliment36:50 – Dave's takeaway: Own your bad - your behavior, your attitude, and your drama About Sonja & Clay Arnold:Relational coaches for 22 years, Sonja and Clay have worked with individuals, families and couples around the world. Theirs is an integrative, neuroscience-based approach for life planning and inter-personal growth for relationships of all kinds. They offer workshops and consultations with clients including business and religious leaders, coaches and therapists, medical professionals and more - the strategy being that by providing skills to one person, a ripple effect will occur as people practice the skills in their work lives, congregations, families and communities. Sonja and Clay have been married for 43 years and have 4 grown children and 5 grandkids. They live with their grand dogs in Arlington, Texas. Certifications include: Safe Conversations® Senior Trainers, Life Coaching Institute Senior Trainers, Tony Robbins Mastery University graduates, Amen Clinics Brain Health and the Well Life Coaching Certification. Sonja graduated with a degree in Education/Deaf Education and Clay in Communications/Pastoral Counseling. Insights: Sonja: Conflict is growth waiting to happen.Clay: We have to feel safe enough to connect in order to really communicate.Dave: You don't necessarily avoid conflict but you bring things up and handle them incompassionate ways. Watch your temper, your tongue, and your tone.Liz: Some things we experience in marriage are really painful and I wish we could X them out. But perhaps then, we'd missed the magic and the meaning and the growth. Invites:    ●    Before starting an important conversation with your partner, ask if it's a good time first. You could say, “is now a good time to talk about [blank]?”. If they say it's not a goodtime, schedule another time in the near future to have that conversation when he or sheis ready.   ●    Create a code word to use when things start to get negative in a conversation between you and your partner. Clay and Sonja Arnold use the word “marshmallow” to signal when either of them is feeling triggered and something needs to change. Talk with your partner about a phrase that could work for you.    ●    Don't forget to have fun with your partner. Keep dating them long after you're married. This nurtures the space between you and creates more enjoyment in your life together. Sonja & Clay Arnold Links: https://www.heartlifecoachingdfw.com/ https://safeconversations.com/   Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: Strongermarriage.org podcast.strongermarriage.org Facebook: StrongerMarriage.orgInstagram: @strongermarriagelifeTikTok: @strongermarriagelife Dr. Dave Schramm: https://drdaveschramm.com https://drdavespeaks.com Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/DrDaveUSU Facebook Marriage Group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579 Facebook Parenting Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/542067440314642   Dr. Liz Hale: http://www.drlizhale.com/ See our website for privacy information.

Video game acting is a unique art form that requires strong acting skills & an imaginative approach to storytelling. Anne is joined by special guests Dave Fennoy & Randall Ryan to discuss all things Game VO. Voice actors must bring their characters to life in a way that's authentic & impactful for players. Believe it or not, the average age for video game players is 40 years old, and these people have been playing games for 15+ years. These players are seeking a high level of story sophistication & depth of character when playing games. For a voice actor, Game VO recording is often a solitary and non-linear process due to logistics, but it still requires a deep understanding of the character you're playing, the world they inhabit, and their relationship to other characters. Invent as you go. Know your character, the world, and how your character would react in the moment. As with any genre, it's best not to overthink things too much before recording, but instead trust yourself as an actor and allow yourself to get creative during the session itself. And if you want to work with the pros, stay tuned for a unique opportunity to relax, recharge, and level up your game VO skills with Dave & Randall…   Transcript    It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.   Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am pumped to level up my BOSS knowledge about Game VO, and I am so excited and honored to have the best in the industry, Dave Fennoy and Randall Ryan. Dave is a renowned voice actor and instructor based in LA with a vast portfolio of work in commercials, narration, TV promo, animation, and of course video games. He's best known for his character, Lee Everett in the Walking Dead Game, and has voiced characters for more than 500 games on some of the industry's biggest titles. And IMDB has named him one of the 20 best male game voices of all time.   Randall Ryan began his career as a musician in touring rock bands, and today is an award-winning composer and producer of gaming and commercial music scores. He co-founded Hamster Ball Studios back in 1995, where he's been directing talent and producing game audio for more than 20 years and has since contributed to numerous high profile video game titles. Also, co-host of Let's Talk Voiceover podcast and still performs the occasional live gig and thinks dogs make the best people. And I of course, think cats, but maybe that's for another podcast discussion, Randall, I'm not sure.   Randall: Who's your animal spirit podcast?   Anne: There you go. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. I am so excited to talk to you today,   Dave: Oh, it's our pleasure. Happy to be here.   Randall: Absolutely.   Anne: So what I love, BOSSes, is that I have both sides of the glass here today so that we can get a really comprehensive view of game VO as it exists today. So I'd like to start off with Randall and ask you as a casting director, can you give the BOSSes an idea of the game VO market as it stands today, let's say, compared to 20 years ago when you first started?   Randall: Well, yeah, that's almost an unfair comparison. I think what I would say is 20 years ago, games were just kind of coming into their own as even an art form. And now as I think a lot of people know, it is the gorilla of the industry. I mean, last year games sold more than film and music combined.   Anne: Wow.   Randall: Which is just amazing. And the other thing that I see that's very different from 20 years ago is 20 years ago, it was certainly the wild west when it came to voice acting. It was often like the person of the cubicle next to the developer, and they were just throwing some voices in. And if they hired actors, there was not a lot of, I don't know if I would use the word respect. It just wasn't really truly a real part of -- VO was an afterthought. And I think the difference is, is now is not only has gaming VO reached a really high place as art form, but the thing that I really see and, and it's the reason that I think you don't pay attention to game voice as your own peril if you're a voice actor, is it is changing every other genre.   Commercials are different because of gaming acting, and even for the people that don't know it that are writing copy, they've been growing up with games. They've been playing games, and they, and they also see other commercials that have been going to more gaming acting principles. And so even if they don't know that, that's where that creative is driving from -- bottom line is that is where that creative is driving from. So even if you're not going to be in games, I think it's really important as an actor to understand what it takes to be a VO game actor. It's kind of like, even if you're gonna be on film, you really need to understand theater. You need to understand all the principles of it. It's very much the same kind of thing. You may not wanna be a Broadway actor, but you don't study theater kind of at your own peril. I think it's kind of the same idea.   Anne: Well, probably if I had to count the amount of times you said acting --   Randall: Yeah. Well   Anne: Right, in that response? So acting is so very important. Not just I think to game view, but just to voiceover in general, especially now. And I'd like to ask you, Dave, let's talk a little bit about acting and your thoughts on why it's so important that voice talent today really have that acting prowess. Dave: You know, when we talk in the general world of voiceover, acting is important, but it's more important when you are looking at video games. We become a good actor in voiceover to be able to be ourselves or a character similar to ourselves for commercials and narration, or even TV promos. But we're looking for something wider range, a much wider range of who these characters are and with a different purpose. If you're doing TV promos or commercials, your job is to get people to buy a product, watch a TV show.   As an actor in a video game, your character drives the story forward. Whoever your character is, whatever it is they are doing, they are part of a story, not part of trying to sell you something or get you to do a particular act. And what the audience for video games is now, one, they're averaging about 40 years old, and they've been playing video games for 15 to 20 years. And they want an adult experience, and they don't mean adult like chicka chicka wow wow.   Dave: But they're looking for cinematic performances, which means more subtle, more real. Your performance has to fit into the world that these games are in. It's not about your voice, no matter what your voice sounds like. It's about can you let this character inhabit you and bring this character to life with just words on a page and a microphone? And there are various techniques that really are founded in acting principles that'll help you get there.   Randall: And, Anne, I'm gonna add one thing to what you said too. You are right that your primary job in a commercial is to, I guess you could say, is to sell a product. But really in essence, even as an actor, is that really your job? Your job is still to inhabit that scripts, and, and this is where I think some of the changes are coming from. And so in the same way that there are certain people who are spokespeople that the whole celebrity thing has happened, but a lot of times you're putting the celebrity in because people like them. They aren't really selling --   Dave: Because people like them and believe them.   Randall: And believe them. Absolutely. And so people are putting him in there not to actually sell. You know, did Matthew McConaughey sell Lincoln? He didn't. He drove around and said some talking. But he's playing in essence, even though it's him, he's playing this character. And I think even in commercial, to understand what that character is supposed to be that the writing is, you still have to be that character more now than you ever did before.   Dave: Which brings us back to your point, Randall, that learning to be a good video game actor or good actor will help you across the board in voiceover.   Anne: Yeah. I'm just gonna say, with my experience working with students for not just commercial, but a lot of the long format narration, like corporate narration and explainers and, and medical, I mean, even then there is a role. It may not be as dynamic or as long played out as, let's say, a video game, but there is still that acting that has to come into play. And I'm gonna talk about how important I think it is, especially now with the advancements in technology. But I wanted to ask you about the story. Okay, so the story for a video game is a lot different than, let's say, a story that's laid out in front of you.   So like a story, if you're assuming that you're gonna be in a commercial, you're gonna be selling a product, there's a character backstory you can develop. Like you want it to end up that the person agrees with you and says, yes, this is a great product for me. If it's corporate narration, it's kind of a nicely wrapped up little story about a corporate story about their brand. But with video games, it's ever changing, and it's not necessarily all laid out in front of you. And I was gonna also do the example of an audiobook where you've got the entire book and the story's laid out in front of you. But yet with a video game, do you know the entire story right away? Or is it something that develops?   Dave: Chances are you will never ever see the entire script. The video game industry is very secretive. We have all in the video game industry signed hundreds of NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, because they're very secretive. They don't want anybody to know or share what's going on in their game. So even when you audition, sometimes you have to sign an NDA before you can even do the audition or send it in with your audition. And you're gonna get a few lines of whoever this character is, maybe a little bit about the game itself, but never "this is what the entire storyline is and this is what happens." You will never see that script. If you're an actor in a movie, in a play, in a television show, you'll see the whole script. You'll know your character's arc. Being a character in a video game is much more like being who you are. You have certain tendencies, a world, a belief system. But when you walk out the door every day, you don't know what's gonna happen to you.   Anne: That's a very different skillset, I would think. Because each and every time you are getting that script or that little tiny portion of it, you're either developing the scene, the backstory, and the emotion. And so that's like constant, like I would think acting requirement for that just is through the roof .   Dave: Well, you developed the character in that audition. But when you get there, say you did five, maybe ten lines, now you've got 100, maybe 500 lines. And some of them may be paragraphs or monologues. And it's a matter of being in character and going with what is this character thinking, feeling, doing, being, who are they talking to in this particular moment in time?   Randall: Yep. God, there's so many things that that just brings to mind, but, well, what is Mark Dale's quote, a mutual friend of ours, he's a director in London. Yeah.   Dave: This is the exhaust of the acting engine.   Randall: That's one. And then he is got that little spy thing, which I think when you're talking about how do you deal with a video game character, that to me is like, yes, that's actually it.   Dave: One of the things Mark likes to talk about is the spy who is in another city, another country, another place using a different name, dressing different, pretending to be this other person. And his life or her life depends on how well they roll with the punches, roll with a different situation, somebody else asking them particular questions, and it's constant improvising in character.   Randall: Yes.   Anne: I love that. That's such a different way to look at that. Okay, so when you're talking about how to, I guess, evolve that character is sometimes the story -- well, I imagine you would know this -- developed as you also developed the character and then the story might change?   Dave: Well, you know, it's interesting. Uh, during the Walking Dead game, sometimes I would arrive at the studio, and the script got there 20 minutes before me. So yes, actually sometimes the writing is right there with you. So sometimes they wouldn't have been able to tell you anyway because certain things hadn't been written yet. Especially in something that's ongoing, episodic like that, but whether they know it or not, you as an actor are not going to see the entire script. You are gonna live this character moment by moment. So you are living in the world of, what am I reacting to? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I doing? Who am I talking to? And what's that relationship? Which we do as actors anyway, but now it's moment by moment.   Anne: Now Randall. So then in terms of directing a talent, right? What is that like for you? Because you also probably don't get the script right away either, and so you're directing and so what's that process like?   Randall: Well, I usually get it a little bit sooner than the actors, but you're right. It's not like I've been sitting there with it for months or weeks or anything like that. So everybody has got a different philosophy. I guess I'll tell you mine, but I think most directors I talk to will probably tell you something very similar to this. I think this is true of other genres, but video games, it almost has to be true. You cannot go in with this voice in your head or character in your head. Like, this person is going to be like this. It has to be a collaborative process, because you haven't, as a director, haven't had time to absorb all the stuff. But even if you did, even those occasions where you do, writers write, and there has to be a translation, and that actor is coming in with sometimes, you know, you're looking at Dave says 500, sometimes you're looking at maybe 500 lines for that character. You're looking at thousands of lines of script, and we're not gonna put people together, ensemble. And there are a lot of reasons for that. I, you know, I know that's a sticking point for a lot of people, but there are a lot of reasons that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon.   Long and the short of it is I have to trust the actor. So the actor and I both have to be working together to come up with this character. They come in with an idea, I come in with an idea, the writer comes with an idea. At some level check your ego at the door. We're gonna work this out as we go. And that's a lovely process when it works well because once it starts clicking, everybody's discovering, and that's where you get this magical performance that you couldn't have scripted it like that. But that also really derives more than anything else from actors who are comfortable with this, who aren't thrown by change, who are able to invent as they go.   And I think so much of that invention is that understanding what Dave said, where are you? What happened before you got here? What are you reacting to? How do you feel the other person? These are acting principles, but I think they're also just mindset principles that you have to get into as you're observing humanity and everything else. And some people do that extraordinarily well.   Dave: You know, one of the things I find working with students is generally they don't realize how much time and effort they need to spend in discovering everything about this character and everything about a particular scene that they're gonna do. I like to tell people, well, look, we've got words on a page or screen and a microphone, and we have to stay on mic and we have to read the words. An actor on stage, an actor on set has memorized their script. They are in costume. They have another actor that they're bouncing energy off of. There is blocking, they're gonna move from this place to this place. They know what the action is that they're going to do and they can do it. Once again, we're reading words on a page in front of a microphone.   But we have to bring the same level of acting to those words that are on a page through that microphone. And the only way to do that is to put yourself in the place of that actor, say on set, on scene.what am I wearing? You know, what does it look like around me? Am I sitting, am I standing? Am I walking? This person I'm talking to, what's my relationship with this person? Where are they in relationship to me? Or where are they when there's more of them in relationship to me? What just happened, I mean, in the last couple of seconds, that I'm saying or doing what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling? It's that type of preparation and using your imagination that brings you to believable performances.   Anne: So Dave, when you're creating your character, before you're going into record -- and that might evolve, right, as you do that -- what sort of steps are you taking to envelop that character in a believable way for the script that you have?   Dave: Well, just the things I was talking about, you wanna take in the whole script. Too many people I think wanna start, oh, what are my lines? Oh, is my line, my line. Bullshit. Bullshit. My line, my line.   Dave: And we wanna start with the big picture. If there is a description of what the game is, take that in. Video games are very much like movies. As a matter of fact, they're like 70-hour movies. And whatever genre you can think of, including romcom, for a movie, there is an analogous one in video game. So where does this game live? What kind of world does it live in? Then who is your character? And as much information as they give you, take that all in. Now I realize sometimes it's three paragraphs of information about your character and then five lines. You can't fit everything about that character into those lines. But you can find how this character would react in this situation. What is their worldview? Create that. One of the things I suggest to people from time to time is before you read the lines, read the character description, and then ad lib the character, talking about himself based on those descriptions. He was born here, his parents died, he was kidnapped, he was made a slave, he met a wizard. Tell your story, but without reading it; just off the cuff, improvise it based on the few things that are said there before you get into the script. And once you're in the script, you gotta pay attention to all the alternate lines besides your own and the stage direction. I'm amazed how often actors will -- they'll get their lines, but the alternate lines and stage directions they ignore. All of those are clues that you've, you've gotta take in.   Anne: Yeah. I say actually to my students that even for like something that may seem dry or boring like a corporate narration, the words are there for a reason. Somebody was paid to write those words, and every word has to have a meaning. And I think that there's so many people that just rush in to their studios, and like you were saying, just line by line, and they don't take in the whole story or try to imagine the story, that moment before. There's a moment before even I think in every piece of voiceover copy, there's a moment before. And I think if you can take the time, right, to develop that story, it will help. Let's talk a little bit about -- because I know you've got something happening, Dave, at Voiceover Atlanta, an efforts class, I think, or an X-session.   Dave: Yeah.   Anne: Let's talk about maybe not necessarily efforts, but body and how important your body is to be able to, I guess, express better acting.   Dave: Your body informs your voice. Once again, it doesn't start here. It starts with all of this. It starts with the look on your face. It starts with your honest reaction, your honest thinking, and those thoughts, those feelings will trigger a physicality that makes what you're saying come out in a certain way. Randall had mentioned something, we are translating the written word into the spoken word. They are not the same thing. I actually go so far as to tell myself, look, I'm not that into the words. They're not the most important thing. If you're crying or screaming, and there's a dialogue that's going on through it, and I can't quite understand what you're saying, for me, that's okay. Because what I really wanna understand is what this character's going through in this particular time. Now, if it's something very vital that has to be said, that leads to something else, yeah, we'll want to hear.   But voiceover 101, you wanna sound like you're smiling. What do you do? Put a smile on your face. You wanna sound like you're a little more important? Stand up just a little bit straighter and suddenly there it is. You wanna seem like you're a little bit more tired or something? Let your body relax, and there it is. How a character with a limp, or with a hunchback, or with a injury to their face, how they're gonna express themselves, or they're of a certain age and, and the voice has gotten tired from smoking and drinking alcohol -- these are what we're trying to find.   A lot of people will say, well, I'm putting on this voice, but why? There's nothing wrong with creating a voice, but why? How does this voice serve the character? What is it about this character that that voice is there? So your physicality, if you're somebody, maybe your head's off a little side from an old injury, or maybe you're that guy that's really tough and you're always got your chest out and ready for action. That's what changes your voice. Not something that you're putting on, but something that you allow to happen based on so many other things: your thought, your feeling, your action, your relationship and who you are, what your natural physicality or the natural physicality of that character is.   Randall: When you're talking about the body and you're talking about the voice -- I'll pull all three of these together, what I think at least is kind of simply -- you are acting in your emotions have nothing to do with your character voice. That voice that you put on is a filter. And where people get confused -- because historically this would happen. That voice that you're doing is somehow your character, and then that becomes caricature. That's not true. That voice is a filter. And when you talk about body parts, all the things that Dave just talked about, you could be the age you're at, and if you've got a hip injury, or you've got a limp, or you've got a lung issue, it's gonna sound a certain way.   So all you're doing after that with that voice is, it's a filter. If it's a guitar, it's, you're just turning the overdrive up a little bit on the distortion. But what you play is still gonna be what you play. It might make you play a little bit differently,'cause you got a little more sustain if we're gonna use the guitar thing. But ultimately you're gonna play what you play. And that's, I think the mental process it has to be. You are acting that emotion, you are acting that injury, you're acting that malady, you're acting that physical trait that you have. And then if it calls for it, change your voice placement, change your register, change your nasality, you know, all of that stuff.   Anne: Now Randall, you mentioned something earlier that I wanted to ask you, about when you're recording the characters, they're not typically done in ensemble format, right?   Randall: Right.   Anne: And typically the talent is recording from their studio or in a studio with you. Right?   Randall: Yeah.   Anne: Why is that? Why is there not -- because I would think if you're bouncing off other characters it might --   Randall: Yes, there would be. And sometimes you get that opportunity, but there are two reasons really. One, you have non-linear stories. In a movie and a TV and something of that nature, you have a beginning and an end. So it actually becomes very easy to say, well, we'll put these actors together -- we'll say a movie more than a tv. 'cause I think for TV set, you know, everybody shows up the same time. But we know we're gonna need you on these days 'cause you get at all your scenes that these people and they're gonna need you on these other days. When you have 50 characters that are all speaking. And when you have interactions with any and all of them, the time to actually do that, the logistic issue to do that is almost impossible. And that's one of your absolute biggest reasons right there. When it really comes down to logistics, if I'm going to have Dave come in and do 500 lines, do 1000 lines, and in those lines he's got soliloquy lines, he's got 20 that are interacting with this one person, you just can't really pull that together in the same way. And the other thing in a movie that's different than, than a video game is there's all this back end -- of course movies are more than just about filming, about having the actors there. But that is so much of a focus, where in the game there's all this other stuff you have to construct. You know, think about a movie. If you actually had to construct the world in which you live, now make it non-linear, now make it so that there're branching storylines, or that if you go this way this happens, it actually becomes logistically almost impossible to do.   Anne: That makes a lot of sense. Now, in terms of, let's say the flow of what you do as a director, once you cast something, is it mostly just when the actors available they record their lines? I mean there's gotta be so many things, I would think that the story's gotta be there, right? The game writers have to have the story written. and then you have to get all of the characters to record their lines. And then -- so tell me a little bit about that process.   Randall: Well, that's a big thing. I'll try to make it kind of short. So one of the things you really have to do is at some point you gotta lock the script down. And trust me, that can sometimes be an issue. But you just do, you have to lock the script down, and you have to get everything that you're going to get. Of course there has to be some when the actor's available, if I, if an actor not available for a week 'cause they're on set doing something else, of course you can't use 'emthen. But really that becomes the puzzle piece that comes on this end of scheduling everybody. Dave, I've got this time on Monday and Tuesday. I don't have anything till Thursday. Do any of those fit with you? Bam. You lock it down, you, you do that.   The other thing that is also different about games that -- I mean as budgets go up, maybe this will change, but at least for now, again, some of it is logistics and some of it is budget -- I cast Dave to do a role. By the way, when Dave shows up, sometimes he knows ahead of time, but a lot of times it's like, hey, there're probably gonna be a couple more, just letting you know. And he shows up and because you've got soldier numbers 1 through 10 and townsperson number 1 through 20, it's like, Dave, can you pick up a townsperson? Can you pick up a soldier? By the way, they can't sound like the character that you're actually in here to do. You know? So that's another thing that happens all the time.   Anne: Yeah. And I always like for talent to understand what happens like outside of their little bubble of just voicing something. And so that's why I think it's wonderful to have the two of you there, 'cause it can kind of see how you really have to work together in order to produce and do something successfully together. So it's good to know like what you have to do as a producer or director. And of course the talent has to really, I think, be able to perform pretty much on demand, is what I'm thinking. That's what it's sounding like to me.   Dave: Exactly pretty much on demand. . And it's interesting from my perspective, whether I'm in my home studio or I go into another studio, there will be a producer there, the writer might be there, the director might be there. And I, I think the director's job is, the director's the person who knows how to communicate with actors. The writer may be able to tell you, well this is what's going on and so forth. But they have a tendency to keep talking too much, and they're more invested than they need to be to get the performance you want, whereas the director is your guide. When you are at home doing your audition, you are your own director. You have to make choices. But when you arrive on your gig or the gig arrives at your house, and you're on camera there, now you have somebody to take some of that weight off. And maybe they've listened to your audition and said, well you know, you made a good acting here, but that was the wrong choice. What actually is happening is this, and our job as actors is to be able to create the thought, feeling, attitude, movement of a character, and if it's something different, it's up to us to just make it different.   Anne: I love that you said that cause there's so many people I know that seem to be afraid of making that decision whether it's right or wrong and committing to the acting, because they don't necessarily know what's happening and so therefore they just play it safe.   Dave: And beyond playing it safe, they don't really know. They haven't made a definite decision. And the person who is listening to that audition come in, it doesn't say anything to them. You're probably going to do better making wrong strong choices than no choices.   Randall: Absolutely. Or safe choices. Absolutely.   Anne: I love that. I love that. I got so excited that you said, 'cause I was just like totally connecting with that. Let's talk a little bit about talent that might wanna get into video game voiceover and maybe the demo, which I think is probably an important part of helping them maybe get their foot in the door. Let's talk about what's important in a game demo.   Dave: It's interesting. We were talking about this with each other just the other day. I always liken video game acting --I always tell my students, look, I want you to think of yourself as a character actor. When we think about character actors, and even movie stars who started as character actors, there's something about them, the way they speak, the rhythm of it, their look that we have a reaction to, an emotional reaction to. And every one of us has some of that. You may not feel like you are ABC to yourself, but people who encounter you, that's what they see. So we wanna find out who you are, and now we wanna display that character, that you, the truth of you in a variety of characters from a variety of times in a variety of places with a variety of points of view. So we might be in space, we might be medieval, we might be futuristic, we might be post-apocalyptic, we may be a doctor, a lawyer, a soldier, a wizard, a swordsman, a thief. We wanna bring all these characters with dissimilar energies, dissimilar worlds together to demonstrate all the things that you can do.   Randall: Yeah. Be authentic first. I mean, I like to listen to a demo. I have a 1 and a 1A. 1 is be authentic. That has to be it. I have to stop listening to you as an actor 'cause there's time for that after the demo's done. When I hear a snippet, whatever your 12 seconds or whatever the time is with that character, ideally, and I know you, you can't always do this, but ideally when that clip stops, you're like, no, wait, what happens? 'Cause you got invested in it, you know? And then the second thing is a certain amount of versatility. Now, I think unfortunately to most people, versatility they think means different voices. And it is true that that is part of it. There's no question that you have to be able to demonst --'cause if there're gonna be three characters in a game, I can't hear the same voice. So yes, you do have to be able to learn to change your register, to change your voice placement, to change accents, to do all this other kind of stuff.   But ultimately it really comes out of your attitude difference and your emotional difference. And being -- if you're hyped, if you are just in this manic place, your voice is just gonna sound different than if you are at the bottom of the well depressed, even being the same person. So find those things, not just the emotions of them, but what does your voice do when it does that? How are you delivering things in a different way when you find that? And that's where you get all this variance and you hear different people out of it. So that is definitely 1A. If you, if you're a one trick pony, if it's a good trick, you might get booked a lot, but you're just gonna up your game and up your bookings the more legitimate tricks you can show. I probably shouldn't use the word trick. The more legitimate shades of yourself that you can show, the more legitimate shades of what you do, the better it's gonna play for you.   Dave: And let me just say this, there are people who can do lots and lots of accents, lots and lots of different voices, and sometimes that can kind of hurt you on your demo. If you've done so many different things that they don't come away with a sense of who you are.   Randall: Right.   Dave: You might not remember the name of so-and-so who did all these voices. None of them were the same. They may have all been really good, but you don't remember who this person is.   Randall: Right.   Dave: So I always say, look, start with who you are and keep coming back to who you are. You may have some in different accents and different voices, but start with you and keep coming back to you.   Randall: Yep. I agree.   Anne: So is there a time period -- I know that I work with so many students that are new, and they always wanna know, well, how long will I have to study? Or how long will I have to do this before I can create a demo? If you had to give your experience, how long would it take for someone to -- I don't even wanna think that it's all about the demo because really it's about the acting. Right? And it's about who you are as a voice actor. How long should a student expect to study acting in video game VO? Is it the same for everybody? Is there a length of time that you think, oh, after five years, this will be great? Or after one year, what do you guys think?   Randall: Absolutely depends on the person. I think mentally, if you're talking to people who are getting into the business or are wanting to get into, even just, I've been doing commercial, I wanna do video games. Even if it's that, so somebody who has been working. I think if you mentally think two years of hard work, that's a good baseline. Now there are gonna be people who have all the tools that they need, and in six months they're just rocking and rolling. There are gonna be people that after two years, they're just now starting to figure it out. And it's gonna take 'em five. How do you know? But I think you need to be mentally prepared. Kinda like if you start a business up, I think this is gonna take me a $100,000 in a year. Double it or triple it and then you're probably safe. I think it's the same thing.   Dave: And in so many ways, I think people getting into voiceover and not just for video games or animation, but for the various genre, each of the genres calls for something a little different. There are some rules of the road for all of them. I just think when you get to video games especially, from the smallest whisper to the loudest shout, from characters who very much might be like the disc jockey you used to be, or to the used car salesman that maybe you remember -- you're gonna see all those kinds of characters. If you come with some characters, with some idea of playing like you were when you were a kid, when you were playing cops or robbers or spaceman and aliens -- whatever it was, you weren't judging yourself. You were having a good time. And you put yourself completely into it.   One of the big things I see with a lot of grown up people who now suddenly wanna do this, or maybe they've wanted to do it for a long time, but there's a timidity. Oh, I'm a little, I'm a little scared. I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't want anybody to think this is silly or -- you gotta give yourself to it and that holds people back. Your ability to read can hold you back. Because especially in video games and voiceover in general, we are reading in the moment. We've gotta take the words off the page and connect them to somebody. So I have run into people who've come to me, not often, but a couple people, I've said, look, you don't need me. You've got this. Get your demo done, you can do it with me or somebody else. But you're ready. There's some other people I've worked with for a long time, and I see improvement, but it's slow. But if that's where you really want to go, and you are getting better and getting better, stay on the road.   Randall: Yeah.   Anne: Yeah. It's a journey. It's a journey. So you guys have an exciting event coming up at the end of April I saw for Game VO. Tell us a little bit about that.   Randall: Well, this really came out of an outgrowth of Dave and I; we talk a lot. We've known each other for a long time. And one of the things that we have not seen along the way is what I would call a throughput. There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, there's some wonderful things to do this, but you go to most conferences or retreats or whatever you want to call them, and there's not a real throughput. You get the promo person, you got the commercial person. And there's, there's some real value to that, you know, especially if you're working in multiple genres. But what we don't see anybody doing is, okay, we're gonna strip this down to the basics and take you through -- you know, you don't get to cherry pick. We're gonna take you through this whole thing. Okay. You went to drama school and you're like, and you wanna roll your eyes? I don't know about going back to drama school.   I had a student, I shouldn't even call him a student, an extremely well known voice actor who took one of my recent two-day workshops. And when I saw his name on there, I was like, really? Well, that's interesting. I wonder why he's doing this. And you know, the thing that was really interesting is there was a technique that really truly went back to original acting. And this is a guy who's a drama school, totally trained, accredited, all this other kind of stuff. He's done so much other stuff that he literally had -- now it was easy to getting back in there, but he had forgotten to some degree like, no, you have to start here. He's got all these voices that he can do. He's a wonderful actor. You know, if you had mentioned your name, maybe he'd be like, really? Well that's the point. Somebody like that even didn't have that beginning. So all this throughput we have not seen. And so the idea that we wanna do is take people all the way through what it takes to really truly be a video game voice actor, from let's start with basics of acting all the way up to we're gonna do sessions, and you can't skip the steps along the way. You've gotta do this to this, to this, to this.   Dave: I have to echo the same thing, that I've worked with students who have been on camera, on stage. And for them, the world of voice acting is completely different. And because they're used to memorization, and being in costume, and having another actor that they're working with, they are lost all too often when it's words on a page and a microphone. And sometimes it's just coming from this genre to that genre. If you're doing promos, TV promos, you can have a style. If you're a narrator, you can have a style. If you're doing commercials, you can have a style and work and do very well. With video games, style isn't gonna carry you but so far. You have to be an actor.   Randall: It's a bigger thing. You know, it's, it's actually a bigger thing. You can't have a style.   Dave: Style can be this big, but if you're gonna be an actor --   Randall: No, that's true. It's a range. It's not just a style, it's a range.   Dave: Yeah. And learning how to connect to that, to your range.   Anne: And now, so when is this event and how long is this event?   Dave: Well, it's called Game VO Mexico 2023. It is happening in Akamal, Mexico. That's on the Yucatan Peninsula. And it's the 27th through the 30th of April.   Anne: Okay. Three days.   Randall: Three days.   Dave: Three days.   Anne: All right. Three days of intensive classes, sessions?   Dave: Intensive classes, sessions, and it's gonna be fun. And in one of the most beautiful places in the world. We were doing some location scouting a couple of months ago. I was down there with Randall, and we went to a restaurant, and that night they said, oh, come back and watch the sea turtles make their little baby walk to the sea. It's those kinds of --there's iguanas around and toucans. You'll hear the monkeys in the tree. I mean, it's, it's an amazing place and it's very much outside of your norm. I don't know about you, but have you ever been someplace, you got outside of your house, outside of your city, a different place, and suddenly you could think differently?   Anne: Oh yeah. It'll change your life.   Dave: This is gonna be one of those places, one of those events that you'll be able to shed some things that have been holding you back and embrace some things that are gonna carry you forward.   Anne: I love it. So end of April, where can people find out more information and sign up for this?   Randall: Well, it's the website. It's gamevomexico.com. So just like it sounds.   Dave: Gamevomexico.com.   Anne: All right. Awesome. And for the BOSSes out there, you guys are going to give us a special coupon?   Randall: That is correct.   Anne: Just for the BOSSes. So if you guys want to, you are definitely getting a discount.   Randall: It's a $500 discount. So it's, it's basically 10%. It's a sizable discount.   Anne: That's awesome. Woo. So a $500 discount, you guys can go to that website and enter a coupon code, VO BOSS, to get that discount. That's amazing. So gamevomexico.com. Coupon code VO BOSS to get that discount. And how can BOSSes get in touch with either one of you? Let's say Dave, if they wanna get training?   Dave: Oh, I'm so easy to find, they can email me at davefennoy@mac.com. They can go to my website, davefennoy.com and get in touch with me, and they can check me out every Wednesday at 6:00 PM Pacific for Ask Dave Fennoy anything. I promise I will talk about this.   Randall: This is true.   Anne: Yay. And Randall, what about you? How can people get in touch with you?   Randall: The two easiest places, and I say easy because I've got the long email addresses. My company, what I do the direction through, is Hamster Ball Studios. So it's Randall, randall@hamsterballstudios.com. But on the other side, the stuff that I do as far as teaching and coaching and consulting, I probably shouldn't say coaching 'cause I don't, you know, Dave's the one on one guy. I'm more big macro, big picture, hey, wow, dude. But it's randall@thevoicedirector.world.   Anne: Awesome. Thank you, guys, so very much. This was so informative, so wonderful, and we so appreciate that discount. BOSSes, check that out. Gamevomexico.com. Use that code of VO BOSS, get yourself a discount. BOSSes, I want to ask you a question. Do you have a local nonprofit that is close to your heart? Did you ever wish that you could do more to help them? Well, you certainly can. And visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. Big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes like us three today. Thank you, guys ,so much again, find out more at ipdtl.com. Everyone, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.   Randall: Take care, Anne.   Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

John McMahon and John Kaplan welcome Dave Tiley in this latest episode of Revenue Builders. In this conversation, Dave shares his journey of being a serial entrepreneur, growing and selling multiple successful startups, and how it led him to become a private equity investor. He discusses his experiences running and growing businesses and developing his “good to great” approach along the way. With this approach, Dave and his firm Align Capital Partners get radically honest about what's working in their companies and what is not benefitting the end goal. Applying this philosophy to culture, accounting, sales and talent is what enables them to help the companies they work with graduate from just good to truly great. Additional Resources:Support Restore Addiction Recovery in fighting the opioid crisis: https://restoreaddictionrecovery.com/Visit Align Capital Partners Website: https://aligncp.com/Connect with Dave on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davetiley/Listen to More Revenue Builders: https://www.forcemanagement.com/revenue-builders-podcast HIGHLIGHTSDifferences Between Venture Capital and Private EquityInvesting in the Middle MarketVC Funding for StartupsThe Future of Venture-Backed CompaniesThe Importance of Both Revenue and Earnings Growth in Private EquityThe Different Types of Private Equity InvestmentsThe Importance of Company Culture in AcquisitionsThe Importance and The Benefits of a Good Leadership TeamInnovation and Culture are Key for Successful CompaniesThe Importance of Company Culture in Hiring New EmployeesThe Importance of a Good Sales ProcessThe Differentiator Between Good and Great SalespeopleThe Benefits of Good to Great for Small BusinessesThe Importance of a Company's Mission StatementTaking Risks and Betting on Yourself QUOTESDave - Keep your mind open to new opportunities: "What I would encourage people is financially, they get rewarded no matter what, and it's usually a pretty life-changing event, and that's why we really focus on the journey, not the exit. It's that journey, because they just, they quiver just got richer and bigger, because they've done now a private equity exit, and that just makes them more right open and the door opens for other opportunities." Dave - You can learn in every situation: "I just want to tell people, man bloom where you're planted. Everyone was trying to think, Well, I gotta get to the next three jobs, or I gotta get over here. I gotta get over here. And they're missing the blessing of what this job can give you. Because I think you can learn something in every situation." Check out John McMahon's book here: https://www.amazon.com/Qualified-Sales-Leader-Proven-Lessons/dp/0578895064

We have done three inbetweenisodes so far on healthcare stakeholder collaboration. In sum, there are two major issues that patients have with our healthcare industry, and both can only be solved for if healthcare stakeholder collaboration happens: Patients falling into care gaps and winding up with bad downstream consequences Patients not being able to afford their care This show, we are moving on to talk about an actionable solution here to the care gap problem—the very ubiquitous issue of patients with some pretty serious health issues who remain either undiagnosed or not on optimal treatment or follow-up. Our team at Aventria Health has a big success story that I would love to share relative to care gaps and how to think about solving for them at the local, regional, and national level. Spoiler alert here: What we're talking about in this healthcare podcast, which we call our Groundswell Solution™, improved the usage of best-practice clinical guidelines for patients with end-stage liver disease by 23% nationally. Also keep in mind that what is fast becoming a major factor in developing liver disease is obesity, and the incidence of liver disease is growing. As aforementioned, we are talking about an Aventria Health Group Groundswell Solution, which is the idea of getting diverse stakeholders who are enthusiastic to be empowered as part of a team to help solve for gaps in care and really improve patient outcomes. It definitely takes a village, and if we can find ways where different organizations can work together to contribute and leverage strengths along shared priorities, then great things can really happen. Before we kick in to the show here, let me bring up the miracle of the commons. This is cool. This was a term that was coined by Elinor Ostrom. Ostrom, by the way, won the Nobel Prize for this work. She saw how humans have such an amazing capacity to work together through what she called design principles and come up with some really unique and inspiring solutions that benefit everybody. You can connect with Stacey and Dave on LinkedIn. If you are interested in contributing to Groundswell, please complete this short questionnaire.  Dave and Stacey are co-presidents of Aventria Health Group, a consultancy working with clients who endeavor to form collaborations with payers, providers, Pharma, employer organizations, or patient advocacy groups. They are also co-presidents of QC-Health, a benefit corporation finding cost-effective ways to improve the health of Americans. Each week on Relentless Health Value, Stacey uses her voice and thought leadership to provide insights for healthcare industry decision makers trying to do the right thing. Each show features expert guests who break down the twists and tricks in the medical field to help improve outcomes and lower costs across the care continuum. Relentless Health Value is a top 100 podcast on iTunes in the medicine category and reaches tens of thousands of engaged listeners across the healthcare industry. Dave is a 30-year veteran helping clients work at the intersection of payers, providers, pharmacy, Pharma, and medical device companies. He is an accomplished strategist, providing innovative customer marketing, access, quality, and health intervention solutions for large clients and has directed the development of numerous industry-leading campaigns in primary care and specialty markets. Dave has helped dozens of clients achieve top rankings in their respective categories. He is also an active member of the Pharmacy Quality Alliance.   03:03 How can areas of improvement be flagged in such a fragmented patient care journey? 04:06 What is “the miracle of the commons”? 04:54 How is the miracle of the commons being used at Aventria and QC-Health? 07:51 What is Groundswell, and how does it utilize the miracle of the commons? 11:13 “Is the answer, then, to drive more knowledge and more awareness?”—Dave 11:35 “What about using technology to provide curated, highly targeted information that can support them at the point of care?”—Dave 13:25 “You want to identify where these gaps are across the full spectrum of the journey.”—Dave 15:08 “This is something that is not commonly happening on its own.”—Dave 16:40 “Done in the right way, people are excited … to improve care and improve outcomes.”—Dave 18:50 “Our aim is really to meet people and teams where they are.”—Stacey 19:35 “You don't have to know how or why or where—merely that I think this outcome is not what it could be. That's the place to start.”—Dave 20:01 “You have to understand the different goals of the different stakeholders.”—Dave 21:14 “If we can do the right things the right way, then we can serve many masters.”—Dave   You can connect with Stacey and Dave on LinkedIn. If you are interested in contributing to Groundswell, please complete this short questionnaire.    Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast How can areas of improvement be flagged in such a fragmented patient care journey? Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast What is “the miracle of the commons”? Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast How is the miracle of the commons being used at Aventria and QC-Health? Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast What is Groundswell, and how does it utilize the miracle of the commons? Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “Is the answer, then, to drive more knowledge and more awareness?” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “What about using technology to provide curated, highly targeted information that can support them at the point of care?” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “You want to identify where these gaps are across the full spectrum of the journey.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “This is something that is not commonly happening on its own.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “Done in the right way, people are excited … to improve care and improve outcomes.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “Our aim is really to meet people and teams where they are.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “You don't have to know how or why or where—merely that I think this outcome is not what it could be. That's the place to start.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “You have to understand the different goals of the different stakeholders.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast “If we can do the right things the right way, then we can serve many masters.” Our host, Stacey, and Co-President Dave Dierk discuss the miracle of the commons on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast   Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari, Betsy Seals (EP375), Dave Chase, Cora Opsahl (EP373), Cora Opsahl (EP372), Dr Mark Fendrick (Encore! EP308), Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu (EP371), Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu (EP370), Keith Hartman, Dr Aaron Mitchell (Encore! EP282)    

This week we're exploring the fascinating and controversial topic of flat earth theory....again. This ancient belief, once relegated to the fringes of society, has seen a resurgence in recent years thanks to the power of the internet and social media. On this episode, we'll take a deep dive into the history of the flat earth movement and examine the arguments made by its supporters.  We'll explore the evidence (or lack thereof) supporting the idea that the earth is not a globe, but rather a flat, disc-shaped plane. Whether you're a believer or a skeptic, you won't want to miss this revisit. Join us as we challenge our assumptions about the world around us and explore the flat earth phenomenon. Did we change our minds? *Intro sound clip features comedian Dan Cummins If you have any questions or topics you'd like to see the society cover, please reach out at Contact@hushhushsociety.com   You can find all our audio, blogs and drop sweet ratings at www.hushhushsociety.com Find our Video Content on our Rokfin Leave us a review on Apple, our website, Podchaser or GoodPods You can grab Hush Hush merch and help support the show on Patreon Link up with the society on social media:   Facebook   Instagram   Twitter    Join our Discord and chat with us   TRANSCRIPT Flat Earth 2   [00:01:00]  Dave: Greetings, Hushlings. Welcome back to the Hush Hush Society Conspiracy Hour. Mike: Where we journey into the world of conspiratorial mysteries and dark truths Dave: I'm Declassified Dave Mike: and I'm Mystery Mike and as though is we're joined by our fellow globetard Slick Fronk Sanders. Fronk: The Earth is probably round how you doing? Dave: it's going. Are things going around today? Mike: Quick question flat Earthers. How do boomerangs work on your flat plane? Fronk: Boomerangs are flat.  Dave: that got him. If you didn't notice today, we returned to the great debate in this episode. Is the Earth round? Is the Earth flat? Fronk: Hushling's, uh, in case you weren't [00:02:00] aware, we visited this topic in season three and completely shat all over the flat plane and we believe we should revisit this mother of all modern conspiracies, seeing as though it's such a big part of conspiracy culture. Dave: it's getting even bigger, even though you guys probably most definitely are gonna take a second dumping in this one. Mike: not as bad as the first. Dave: Not  Fronk: Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Mike: we've discussed how there are different phases to being a flat earther. I'm guess I'm still in stage zero and we were in stage one in May of 2021. let's go up around to stage two But before we search for the horizon and fall off the flat plane and search for God in the sky under the spotlight sun, you can always find us on our social medias, Facebook, [00:03:00] Instagram, and Twitter Dave: You can also find everything hush hush society on our website, www.hushhushsociety.com. From episodes to links to merchandise, and the ability to drop a review or leave us a voicemail. We hope we get some after this episode. Mike: Hmm. Please do. Dave: Yeah. Fronk: And we keep mentioning that we are now also a video podcast. You can not only. To us, but you can watch us, you can see our faces. You can get that expressional action that you might not get from just an audio recording. And to find those episodes, you just gotta go to Rock Fin. It's, it's very simple. Rock fin.com. There's even an app. And in the search bar you just put in Hush Hush Society. You'll find us nice and easy. And there you can find all of our videos. you hit the notification button. You get notifications when our videos come out. Check it out. Mike: And just one last thing before we move on to the flat plane, we just [00:04:00] want to give a quick shout out to our newest patron, Gabrielle May. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. Fronk: Just in case you're new to this, we're gonna do a quick little recap for you on what Flat Earth theory is, and essentially, in a nutshell, the earth is flat rather than round. Pretty self explanatory, although it's made its appearance throughout history. The theory gained popularity around 2009 and has continued to grow ever since. Dave: It is regarded as one of the most controversial conspiracy theories in existence. Why claim that our earth is flat and not a globe easy? That's because it looks flat and feels flat and is surrounded by 200 feet of ice blocking us from traversing across an infinite plane or falling off the edge. Sounds correct, right? Fronk: I mean, yeah, that's what I've been made to believe. That's that's what it seems like Mike: Yeah. Riding on the back of a turtle through the cosmos, but the cosmos [00:05:00] doesn't exist, so where's the turtle going? Anyways,  according to believers, NASA and the ruling elite protect the ice walls from people attempting to climb over and fall from the disc. Can't make it up. They also believe that earth's gravity is an illusion, and that objects are driven up by a mysterious force called dark energy, rather than spinning and being stuck to a surface, Fronk: But on the other hand, there are countless photographs, videos, and images from astronauts and the International Space Station that kind of seem like evidence to show that the Earth is round. But these are not considered real evidence and are allegedly faked by the government or the ruling elites Dave: Now before we move on, flat, earthers already pissed off at our description in the beginning, Fronk: probably. Dave: we wanted to pull you in, but we'll make it as [00:06:00] fair as possible with some of the talking points that we're going to go over.  Now, Hushlings, there is the flat Earth Society as well as thousands of others from around the globe in groups. In addition to independent researchers, even though there is evidence to contradict some of these arguments, they are dismissed as fabrications of around earth conspiracy, along with stars, planets, galaxies, space, and gravity, all being a part of the facade of where we live. Mike: That is my biggest thing when it comes down to a debate between a flat earth and someone who believes that we live on a globe, is that it always results. In a flat earth are saying, well, that's what you've been told. You've been lied to. You're believing a lie that's being told to you, which is the old faithful of all conspiracy theorists, is that you're being lied to. That's all well and good, but at what point do you turn around and say, the [00:07:00] science is being lied to you. Nasa, we know lies to us. We know they fabricate images. We know what they do. But again, that's more of an argument that NASA is filled with bunch of liars. But at what point do you look at it maybe there is evidence that it's a globe or maybe there is evidence that it's a flat plane. There has to be a certain cutoff point where you stop saying, well, you're being lied to. That's what they want you to believe. That's what they're fabricating the science. They're fabricating this. They're fabricating that. How, and this has always been my issue, how do you talk to a flat earth and say, what piece of evidence would it take for you to say that it's a globe Dave: Pictures. Mike: pictures? , but then you show them a picture of this is what our earth looks like. It's a globe. Or you show them video or you show them anything. Well, that's been fabricated. It's always like this deniability to go against what they believe in. Like you, you have to deny [00:08:00] it. You have to deny it because it shakes the entire foundation of what their belief system is, especially when it comes to a flat earth. But then they always revert back to, that's what the Bible says. That's what the Bible says. I'm sorry, we, we've been over the Bible many times. We all know that it's been changed a thousand times and it's a book.  Fronk: not only that, but that's what they're making the Bible say. That's what certain people are interpreting the bible to say, and you can make the Bible say a lot of different things depending on how you decide to interpret it as a person. And if you're interpreting it as, they're telling me about the flat earth and so be it, Dave: This episode is gonna focus a little bit more heavily on some of the things that Mike and Fronk just mentioned, talking about NASA and the why would they lie and why would they fake and indoctrinated us as kids to believe that it's a ball. , and these are major [00:09:00] talking points that I've learned over the last year and a half since we've done this, other than just the physical evidence. We have the physical evidence if you're going to go by the, mainstream. we'll go through a bunch of stuff. I think we'll talk about religion too. So Mike, save those nails, buddy. Mike: We'll look into some of what we just listed and more throughout this episode, and it strongly suggested you listen to our first crack at this crust to understand where some of the historical beliefs come from and a lot of other things about this theory, mainly the science. But let's give this another oscillation, shall we? We're gonna literally hit some of the proposed theories and then firmly spit some facts. be prepared to, uh, confirm or deny your belief. Fronk: Before we completely dive into the flat plane, we're gonna talk about the planet as we've been taught in a traditional sense. Our Native [00:10:00] Earth is a terrestrial rocky planet, correct? Yes or no? I mean, whether it's flat around truth,  It has a dynamic and active surface with mountains, valley, canyons, you name it. All the different geographical structures and a variety of other features. It has water covering 70% of its surface, as well as harboring thousands of life forms, and it has a unique orbiting satellite arm. Dave: it has a circumference. Remember this number Hushlings 24,901 miles. And it shares our solar system with eight, sorry, Pluto, eight other planets and is rotating at around thousand miles an hour while orbiting our home star. Now this is where flat Earthers start to deny our existence on a spinning ball. we're orbiting around our sun at 67,000 miles an hour, all while zipping around the center of the Milky Way, roughly at [00:11:00] around 490,000 miles an hour. And the biggest claim, you can't feel it.   Mike: Well, that's just what we're taught in school. Unfortunately, most of us didn't escape the clutches of the Rockefeller Education System. There's that name again. Yep. He created the General Education Board in 1902 at the cost of 129 million. It's a lot of money back in 1902. It's a lot of money today and provided major funding for schools across the nation and was very influential in shaping the school system. Also, he's quoted as saying, I don't want a nation of thinkers. I want a nation of workers. Sounds like my pause. Fronk: And that speaks some deep truth because school does indoctrinate the nation into the trap of society. Once you hit like 10th grade, you're already filling out college applications, colleges that you're gonna be in debt to for the rest of your life, that you're gonna have to work for the majority of [00:12:00] your life to pay off for that job that you'll be working for the rest of your life. And it's this endless cycle. So that's definitely perpetuated by some global elitist. I get that to an extent, maybe the indoctrination portion of it. Dave: Well, from the beginning. Which classroom have you ever been in that didn't have a globe?    Fronk: In 1928, John D Rockefeller Jr. Financed an expedition to the South Pole as a British secret service. Agent Rockefeller knew perfectly that no South Pole existed, but people were curious about the true shape of the world. From 1956 onward, Antarctica was completely controlled by the Pentagon. Hence the Antarctic Treaty. And anybody visiting this chunk of land without permission was shot on site. Admiral by who we've talked about extensively, died mysteriously in 1957 and perhaps had a timely demise before he could tell the truth about what the South Pole. Mike: When it comes to the[00:13:00] Antarctic treaty and being shot on sight, who is shooting these people on sight? Fronk: Snow snipers. Those drones from Star Wars that landed on Hoth Mike: , that's a lot of land to patrol in order to watch for people.  Dave: remember. Antarctica is 5.2 million square miles as well. Mike: That's what doesn't make sense to me. You're gonna be shot on sight and that's another part of the Antarctic treaty that I also don't understand. Who is physically stopping you from going there? The only thing that's physically stopping you from going to Antarctica is it costs a lot of money. To either charter a boat that would go there. most people don't go there. Most charter boats don't go there. You could do a flyover, but that's only partial. Who is physically stopping you besides your bank account? Dave: I did see a video recently of some guys on a boat that were stopped. I think they were stopped by the New Zealand Navy [00:14:00] or the Australian Navy, and they were turning him around and you can see like. Ice in the distance or something like that. And I don't know if there was just like an iceberg that was out there that they were near, but the allegations on TikTok was got turned around at the bottom of the world, cause I believe it's, there's some degree, and I'm gonna sound uneducated saying this, but I don't know the degree, I think, but there's some degree at the bottom of the world. That you can't go. But the Antarctic treaty, it contradicts itself because the Antarctic treaty was supposed to be a demilitarized zone. No military stuff. No commercial, nothing. It was supposed to be strictly for research. Fronk: So why is the Navy there? Of who? New Zealand? Dave: It was either New Zealand or Australia Fronk: So what is the New Zealand or Australian Navy doing there? Dave: Well, they're close to Antarctica Fronk: Yeah, but isn't a non-military zone. Dave: But there's only military scientists maybe not all military scientists. You got like, Noah [00:15:00] scientists and stuff, and I'm sure NASA is down there, the Nazis, they're all down there. You know, you  got everybody. Antarctica looks like a continent to me, and there's a lot of pictures of it. And are they fake? I am. I'm not on the plane, so I don't know. . Why would it matter and why would they lie? The largest argument of why these elites would lie to us is most likely there's more land, more resources, maybe even unlimited resource. And lands beyond the ice shelf or walls, as well as the suppression of how powerful of beings we are, which can kind of be a different argument that has nothing to do with flat earth as well. thoughts on that? Fronk: I could get behind both of those points to an extent in the shoes of a flat Earth, for example. Yes. If you told me that there was unlimited resources, we're talking oil, we're talking the purest water in the world. We're talking minerals that are used to power the world's [00:16:00] electronics, whatever, energy generating methods that we might have unlimited supply of that which would completely destroy not only the US dollar, but the world economy, which is what the alleged elites thrive off of. And if it's not money that they thrive off of it is leaching our fucking energy. And we've talked about that a lot. And if we were to unlock some sort of crazy. Secret about ourselves or humanity as a whole. That might be incredibly enlightening to a lot of people or disturbing. I could see it going either way, but if, if a bunch of people woke up and they were incredibly enlightened, that could be bad for the reptilian negative energy blood suckers. Dave: I don't think it would go well for anybody. I think we always do ask this question a lot when we talk about this as is, would it change our everyday lives? And we usually say no, but it would, because we [00:17:00] probably have a massive economic shutdown. religions would collapse. There'd probably be some type of total anarchy that would happen and then we'd have our own epiphanies of being like, not really upset that I was wrong, but shit I was lied to as well, part of the Doy group. And that would be a shitty day. would it end everything for me? No, it would change everything for sure. But I think the unlimited resources part, I could see somebody hiding that, , we did talk about Admiral Byrd and Admiral Byrd went through, supposedly into the hollow earth, could he have misinterpreted and gone through a crack and found more land. Who knows? In the writing The Iron Republic, written by EW Barrington and published also in 1902, another one of that year with the education system. It was published in Florida Magazine, and it said that an explorer went through a crack in the ice walls and found an advanced civilization after being lost for over a month at sea. So that [00:18:00] means he went through the ice walls and there was more ocean,  Mike: Have there ever been any, any pictures or video of the ice wall or beyond it? Fronk: Uh, people take pictures of. Ice shelves and try to say that they're the ice walls, but at the same time, those could very well just be ice shelves or very large icebergs Mike: Makes sense. Makes sense.  Dave: I wanna see a flight going around the whole whatever, 76,000 miles it's supposed to actually be. Just banking around the whole rim. But you can't go there because the military will shoot you down in a de militarized. Mike: I still think that there's plenty of ways to get there. And we talked, who do we talk with? That had went to Antarctica? Was it Mark Fronk: on a cruise with like their father. Yeah. Mark O'Connell. Yeah. Dave: Yep. Mike: O'Connell said that , he went to Antarctica with his family. Dave: San Diego Padre's pitcher's there right now.  Fronk: Yeah, but he, he also mentioned that it was like the only [00:19:00] part of Antarctica that they'll let a civilian on and it's like this tiny little peninsula and they've got the little, novelty pole.  Like you could go up and touch it and take a picture with it. Yeah. And they got little stuff, penguins and shit. Dave: could it just be a simple explanation why we don't bring people there? One, you'll die  Fronk: , yes, it's very extreme terrain, there's tons of extreme terrain that we're allowed to go to that you would probably die in if you weren't very well equipped. Mike: Yeah, it makes sense that the only reason that they would be stopping people from going there, besides the massive, endless amounts of resources that they're hoarding from us, would be that they just don't want people going out there and fucking dying.  This brings up another allegation that even the word extraterrestrial means extra terra or more land. Trying to hold some weight to the notion this has been taught to us. We see in the film The Next Level by David Weiss. [00:20:00] He meets with an older woman named Ruth. She's 102, God bless her, from Connecticut, who was in tears claiming that she was taught flat Earth in school, in Hamden, Connecticut, and now feels vindicated and better because of his truths. Dave: she was like, lost it. Mike: like real, real emotional about it. Dave: Yeah. Really emotional about it Mike: Okay. We just mentioned the Rockefeller education system and him saying that he doesn't want a nation of thinkers. He wants a nation of workers. , in the 1920s, if she was taught that the earth was flat, She would've been learning from that education system. Dave: True. Yeah, but I don't think that there's actually, I've looked and looked and looked and couldn't find any definitive evidence that was saying that they actually taught that in schools. Because even in 2022 curriculums across the country are not the same, even across the [00:21:00] same states, depending on the size of your state, they're not the same, especially when you get to advanced levels like college professors are teaching what they want within that curriculum, How in 1920 were they all taught the same thing when there was still tons and tons and tons, tons of schools. , that's the thing that gets me,  she's 102. Could she have just been like, yeah, I saw that once and she saw it on a cartoon in the seventies while she was in her sixties,  Fronk: nonetheless, I do find it difficult to wrap my head around because it was David Weiss who did that interview or whatever, and he brings up a lot of stuff about flat Earth. I listen to a bunch of his talks and shows that he went on to and whatnot, and he brings up all of these points and , he tells people to just, look into it. You gotta look into it yourself. You gotta do your research. , you go to do this research and obviously if you're looking into stuff like this, you're not going to [00:22:00] Google. You're not using Bing, like the go to search engine for anything that you can't find is duck, duck go. And he's been saying that Duck, duck go is starting to censor things of this nature. So, like Dave, I went looking for what the global education was like in the 1910s, the 1920s, and. Again, like you said, no definitive proof. Is it a censorship thing or is it the fact that it was just not taught as flat in the 1920s? Dave: There's also allegations that say that, it was the thirties and even in the sixties through certain education systems. , I almost bought David Weiss's app now. David had contacted us and let us know how he thought about us. I think in the next level, , it almost looks like somebody's trying to sell something and maybe this woman really did feel vindicated Ruth if she's still alive or not. but I don't know, check out the next level. It's an interesting take on flat earth and [00:23:00] there's a bunch of other proponents that I'd never even heard of that have some interesting talking points. Mike: my beef when it comes to David is he did reach out to us. He reached out to us a couple times, especially after our flat Earth episode. And essentially just berated us through email it's the usual argument that I, especially for some odd reason am on the receiving end of arguments with flat earthers is just yelling and anger and just being pissed off consistently. and he was not too happy, as Dave said with how we covered it in our talking points. He said, oh, it's the same talking points. Well, it's the same talking points with flat Earthers too. you talk about the Bible, you talk about nasa, you talk about, it's like, it's, it's the same talking points because we're talking about the same fucking topic.  Of course we're gonna have our sides to it and of, and flat earthers are gonna have their sides to it. It's just the way that it is. That's how you have constructive. [00:24:00] Conversations that go back and forth with conflicting beliefs. Dave: I feel like it's a lot of frustration that , you're just not getting it. Fronk: I feel like he rails Coke and like smashes Globes in his free time, like buys globes from Goodwill and just fucking destroys them in the parking lot and then drives home  Dave: beats them with Louisville slugs. Just smack. Smack.  Mike: I can't wait for our next email correspondence after this one. Fronk: dude. It's not gonna be an email. It's gonna be a voice message and he is gonna be all fucking jacked up out of his mind.    Dave: Before we move on to like the major talking points we gotta talk about what Mike mentioned earlier where a lot of the stuff that is talked about goes back to biblical cosmology and creationism.  Mike: Yeah. And that's always been my biggest talking point with discussions with flat Earthers is explain it to me I will give you my counterpoints and you'll give me your points and we can go [00:25:00] back and forth, but complete your, persuasion of trying to make me see that it's a flat plane. Complete your argument without using the Bible. Every single fucking time. Every single time it ends in, well, it says this in the Bible and it says this, it always ends up being that let's put it this way. I've never met a flat earth that wasn't also at the same time a Bible thumper. Dave: I've met two types. I feel like there are conflicting points to, flat earthers even they step on each other's toes a little bit. They might not, not get along, but I think there are some folks that definitely don't believe in the biblical cosmology and it's just a physical thing. But every time you go back to, if it's a physical thing, that's a structure that's not a planet. It brings me to the question, even a non-religious person. It brings me to the question, well then we're talking about who created it, [00:26:00] not just the science of planets and, gas and particles coming together for, from a accretion. We're talking a whole different thing. Now. We're talking about, well, if it's a structure , and this is not what we think it is and this is not what I think it is, then it had to have been manufactured structure. We build structures. using that type of verbiage, brings even me to being like, , now we're in the religious realm or the faith realm. Fronk: You want me to blow your mind right now? you know what's easier than creating a whole universe writing fucking lines of code. Bam, bam.  Mike: Yeah, there it is. There it is. We should just bring all arguments of flat earth back to simulation theory. Fronk: That's where I, that, yeah. Prove to me that it's even physical and then maybe I'll consider whether, the shape is round or flat. Dave: Let's talk about curves. Fronk: Right. All right. Let's talk about the voluminous crevices and curves that our mother Earth provides. Right. The idea of a flat [00:27:00] earth stems from a number of viewpoints, and the most fundamental is to rely on one's own sense, to determine the true nature of one's surroundings. The world appears flat. Clouds, bottoms look like they're flat. Water looks like it's flat, and the sun moves. The stars are always the same positioned exactly how they always were, and all of these sensory cues indicate that we do, in fact, live on a flat. Dave: I'm not an astrophysicist and I'm not a  Fronk: Are you  sure?  Dave: Maybe, maybe, maybe in my other existence, the 500 of 'em. I'm a failed astrophysicist, but I do have a telescope and I've had it for quite some time and I'm pretty good with it. And it's Fronk: the fuck? Dave: eh, the stars not moving. I know that there's a difference between absolute, uh, motion. A difference between [00:28:00] relative motion, and I'm pretty sure that the way that the stars move, but their whole argument is, is that since everything's spinning at astronomical speeds every night, we would see different stars because we're just whipping around and seeing different things. So why are the stars the same? And it does get you thinking, well, why are the stars the same? Well, I'm not a professional astronomer, so I can't really explain that. But I would say it has something to do with relative motion where everything's moving in conjunction instead of just this vortex of insane speeds..  Fronk: In my peanut globetard brain, I'm more so thinking the speed of light and how long it actually takes for the light from the stars that we're seeing to travel here. I mean, yeah, we've been seeing the same stars for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, but at what point were those stars emitting that light? How long have those stars been dead for, and how long is it gonna take for us to see new stars again? [00:29:00] I can't answer any of those questions for you, but I'm pretty sure that's. Dave: Valid point. Mike: Also in the grand scheme of time, humanity has been around a fucking blink in universal time. again to Fronk's point here, we're seeing the same stars because we're living 80 years and that's it. As opposed to the billions and billions and billions of years that the universe has existed and that that light has traveled and those stars have either been born, exploded, died, and disappeared. , we're seeing nothing, nothing. Dave: Well, that goes back to you being an insignificant being and that being suppressed. There's that argument. We'll have that later. We'll fight about it. Mike: there, there won't be an argument. We are insignificant beings.  Even if you took it back to a creationist argument, we are fucking insignificant. We are insignificant, we're [00:30:00] nothing. If we were something we would still commune with Gods, we would still commune with universal spirits. We would be. Something more than fucking meat sacks traveling through the world going, oh, I wonder what job I'm gonna have next, that I'm gonna work fucking 40 hours a week at and pull in a menial salary and take care of my 5.2 fucking kids, and then eventually retire at the ripe old age of 70 years old. And that's my life. How special am I Dave: Well, that's the system that you're locked in. Mike: system or not? Even if I had no job, even if I was just wandering, enjoying my life, going to these wonderful, exotic places, just doing everything that I wanted to do. At the end of it all 70 to 80 years, that's what I get. That's fucking it. in those 70 to 80 years, when am I seeing God? When am I [00:31:00] seeing a hint of any extraterrestrial, any, any extra dimensional, any religious, fucking spiritual guide? Anything. Anything.  when I'm not, fucked up on drugs, Dave: psychedelics. Fronk: God tier moment. Mike goes, have you ever given an ant food? Throw that bitch in there.  Dave: A lot of people see that as negative, and I don't really see it as negative that we're that insignificant. It's kind of the same argument that I make about the flight paths, which we'll quickly touch on is, well, the, the plane has to keep dipping down to keep going. Have you seen how small a plane is to how big the earth is? Mike: That's one thing that they don't understand is fucking perspective. You don't understand  perspective.  Dave: I'm glad you brought that up because what Frankie said a couple minutes ago about viewpoints perspective, seeing, if the clouds appear flat, water is flat, that's called using an empirical approach or an approach that relies on information [00:32:00] on your senses.  What's your feeble little human garbage eyes can see? And if you can't see the curve, then it doesn't exist. They use mathematics. I am. Stupid with math. The math is if the earth is round, there should be a degree of curvature, eight inches per mile squared. one mile would be eight inches, two miles, 32 inches, three miles, 72 inches, four miles, 128, and so on.  128 inches is about 10 feet of curvature. So that would be, four miles away now? 10 feet. A considerable amount when you're looking at a boat on. Water the water line to the top, say, let's say an aircraft carrier is probably 60 to 90 feet. You'd have to be at least around 20 miles to not just see the flight deck of that ship going over the horizon.  Then you got the whole, you got the bridge, you got everything else. You got all the radar you're probably looking at 120 feet at least to the top of, all of the structures on that ship. How many miles is that? . That's the thing. Another thing with the insignificance is [00:33:00] that we're tiny as fuck. Like how can we see anything? If you're five foot 10 and you're looking at something how far are you actually gonna see Mike: but what about the Zoom, Dave? What about the Zoom? Some of those cameras, they can zoom way, way, way, way in. They take those cameras and they zoom, zoom, zoom, and they go, well, that city is 150 miles away. There's no way that I should see it because of this curvature. And this camera is picking it up perfectly. So how do they work? Dave: I think they use the Chicago skyline for example. And I didn't do the experiment and look on Google Maps , and see the different distances, but you gotta remember the Sears Tower, whatever the fuck it's called now, it's like well over a thousand feet tall. and they're like, well, you can see the whole thing you. In those pictures that are shown as examples, you cannot see the entire Sears Tower. There is hundreds of feet of displacement in Chicago. Like New York has a [00:34:00] very tall fucking skyline. But you could still see those buildings and they're there, and on top of it, you're getting atmospheric disturbance. You're getting a layer of almost a mirage layer.  Mike: Dave was just going over the math of the entire situation, it's 67 feet per 10 miles. Now, before we move on, we have to mention that there are ball earthers or globes or globe tards that do argue that this equation is misused by flat earthers. And is the equation of calculating a parabola, not a full sphere. Dave: The guy who said that this is Misused was something that was found on the Michael Stata podcast and apparently himself and another guy that were on there, one was like an F 18 pilot, and then he's got certain hundreds and hundreds amount of hours as being a pilot. he had mentioned that the equation was misused and used the parabola as an example, that you're talking [00:35:00] about something like this instead of something that's a full circle even if you're talking about it on the curve, , it's still a parabola, even on that surface. Even though the equations are right and the math is right to calculate the curvature of the earth with its circumference that's known.  Might not be accurate. And uh, who did that? Aristophenes did that. And I know Flat Earthers is gonna say that guy didn't even fucking exist. which maybe he did, maybe he didn't. That was 2000 years ago. Who knows? Fronk: just to be fair to the flat earthers, right? We can't nitpick what false history we believe and don't, we do tend to say that history could have been falsified many times. If history has been erased at any point in time there is the possibility that this dude was made. Mike: using this model, a person standing on a spherical surface with eyes five feet, 11 inches above the ground, can [00:36:00] hypothetically see the ground up to about three miles away, but a person at the top of the Eiffel Tower at 896 feet can see the ground up to 36.6 miles away. Dave: Well, they're higher in altitude, Mike: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.  Dave: but the argument is that you can't see using the calculation, you wouldn't be able to see because it's dipping. I think the argument is wrong, and I'm not a mathematician and I'm not good at math, but from what my I see is that almost like some of these people are seeing it smaller than what it is. I don't think they're really getting how big this thing is and how small we are. So even at a 900 feet, Yes, you can see almost 10 times as much in distance, but you're also almost a thousand feet in the air,  Mike: Again,  perspective.   Fronk: If the degree of the [00:37:00] curvature is found to be the same everywhere on earth's surface, and the surface is in fact large enough, the constant curvature demonstrates that the earth is a. Now what about water? James Underdown, executive Director for the Center for Inquiry, Los Angeles worked with the Independent Investigations Group, a nonprofit dedicated to investigating exceptional claims using scientific methods. A boat based target with horizontal stripes was used in one of these tests. Dave: He's quoted as saying we sent a boat out on the water, and the farther it goes, the more the stripes disappear. That was supposed to demonstrate the curvature of the planet, but most flat earthers disagreed generating considerable debate. The biggest reason for these arguments with flat earth, obviously it comes from flat Earth, Dave(David Weiss), and it's all about perspective, as we said. The ground would never obscure distant objects on a flat earth. It should be possible to see all the way to the edge of the [00:38:00] world, right? That is the question that we would be asking. The answer we get is the atmosphere is opaque. Now, using the vernacular atmosphere is almost a conundrum in itself, and you ask, well, why did you use that? Well, we don't have another word for it.  Mike: Why not just make up a word like you fucking make up your own beliefs?  Just fucking do it. Just do it. . Make up a new word. It's very easy. It's done every day.   [00:39:00] Ad break [00:40:00]    Mike: Let's move on to another major fight in this, the position of the sun, sunrise and sunset. In case you were wondering, the sun is always above the Earth's surface in both models, Yet in the flat model, it travels in circles around the Earth's north pole, which is also, its. The seasons are caused by the expansion [00:41:00] and contraction of these circles. What about latitude?  Dave: What about latitude? I mean,  that would  Mike: about latitude  Dave: right? Mike: Hmm. Dave: The largest circumference of latitude on this planet would be the equator. Correct?  Mike: Yep. Dave: And then you have the tropic cancer and the tropic of Capricorn. The midpoints. I don't know that seems pretty, easy to explain. Maybe I'm just stupid. Could  be,  Mike: Globetard Dave: yeah. Fronk: Fucking idiot. Do some research Mike: Look into it. Fronk: where, show me where, show me where I could read about this that isn't on the app.  Mike: In the Bible, Fronk: Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Here we go with the fucking Bible again. Mike: and books from the  17 hundreds  Fronk: They considered the sun to be much closer than 93 million miles and possibly even as far as 3000 miles or as close as 300 miles and moves in a circle or a helix pattern because the earth is supposedly accelerating upward, obviously toward the sun [00:42:00] at 9.8 meters per second because they don't believe in gravity, and that explains gravity away. with that being said, the sun must also be accelerating in the same direction as this hypothetical earth vortex. Make sense? You guys got that? Dave: instead of us spinning with things spinning around us and us spinning around something else and then that spinning around something else, which is relative there's a really big graphic that's always shown on every documentary, every video, and it's like the sun being shot out of a. With everything else just like around it, it looks like a DNA strand, most globe tards, know that that's not how motion works with celestial bodies. that one got me and always gets me, is every time that's shown. I'm like, oh God.  Fronk: other astronomical bodies moving in such a pattern? We have like really high powered telescopes Mike: Because space is not real.  Fronk: [00:43:00] Oh, shit. I forgot. I'm, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You got me.  Okay. All right. All right. Right. All right. Dave: no space. No space. We have to remember that throughout this whole episode, there's no space. Fronk: Yes. Yes. Mike: if you take space out of the equation, introduce God in the Bible, and just ignore all known fucking science for the past like 300 years, you can be a flat earther. Fronk: wait is it no space or it's just the sun and the moon and the earth, or , is it None of that and it's just plain earth with our spinning moon, sun clock sort of thing happening, Which one is it? Do flat earthers believe either the barrel bore theory or the plate theory? Dave: Everything's contained in a system. Fronk: It's one in the same Dave: and everything above us is, I guess, the abyss, because there's a lot of arguments that, like with this Artemis program, whether it's fake or not, we'll talk about NASA in a little bit, but whether it's fake or not, Rockets [00:44:00] don't work in a vacuum apparently. but they're actually using, their own inertia to move in a vacuum. But I guess things don't work that way according to some. That brings us to sunrise and sunset. I don't want to get too far into this cuz this can take hours and hours and hours to argue about, let's talk about sunrise and sunset real quick.  Fronk: Unlike a bunch of these other points, the day and night cycles are actually kind of easily explained on a flat plane. The sun theoretically would move in circles above the North Pole. Or around the North Pole, and when it's over your head, it's day, and when it's not, it's nighttime. The light of the sun is then confined to a limited area on the earth, right? Because it's right above you. This claim never held any weight for me in particular because it can be debunked with science.  On top of this, all of the planets and stars aren't actually what they appear to be like [00:45:00] big rock balls in space or giant balls of gas, but they're actually luminaries. Yet. We also hear a lot of people say, well, we don't know what they. Dave: Stars and planets are one of the biggest things that cannot be explained yet. We can explain them with telescopes. We've been talking a lot about movement. We have to talk about heliocentric model, which is the one that we supposedly live in and not the geocentric model, which is the one that flat earthers live in. When we are confronted with the question of how the earth is able to orbit the sun, and it's not a sphere it's pretty simple. The earth actually doesn't orbit the sun, as we've been saying. This is so, because instead of the sun being the center of our solar system, our planet is actually the center of our solar system or controlled environment. Mike: In reality, we have Helio Centrism, also known as the Heliocentric Model. It's the astronomical model in which the earth and planets revolve around the sun at the center historically, [00:46:00] Helio Centrism was opposed to geo centrism, which placed the earth at the center. now we've hit the firmament. Fronk: In the cosmology of the flat earth. The disc shaped planet is covered by a dome whose edges stopped just beyond the roughly 145 foot high ice wall of Antarctica. And these stars are fixed on this dome while the sun and moon, which are only about 31 miles in diameter, revolve about a 3,100 miles above the earth. Dave: Now, as we said before in biblical cosmology, the firmament is a vast, solid dome or semi solid dome created by God during his creation in the first six days To divide the primal sea into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear, which surrounds the earth or frozen water, I've heard this a lot with the biblical cosmology stuff, is that it's explained during day one, day two, day three, and they even say in the Bible, God created the firmament. I [00:47:00] believe it's on ver bran's headstone, as we've mentioned previously. I think it's a lot of wordplay and interpretation,  Mike: We also mentioned back in Hollow Moon, if you've listened to that episode about the Zulu tribe, where the firmament or atmosphere rained down to earth.  Our flat earthers saying that the sky is liquid possibly. Clearly, we know that the Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% argon and 0.1% of other gases. Dave: Now, quickly, recently, I've heard a lot of arguments in quite a few different shows and videos not just one proponent, but multiple proponents on this theory. And a lot of 'em will say, well, the atmosphere itself is just a different version of water as it is up in space, a whole different version of water. Because they use the example of if you go to the deep oceans or certain lakes, there's different [00:48:00] salinities of water. You'll have heavier water on the bottom, different pockets of water. the atmosphere works the same way and they say, because it has the same elements in it. Now, if our atmosphere is made up of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, yes, there's hydrogen in that, because if we need water, we need H two O, which does happen in the atmosphere, Fronk: shit. That's why they sent U-boats to space it's water. Dave: oh. Fronk: Oh, Dave: That's it.  You got me.  Mike: done. We're done.    Final thoughts, boys? Fronk: Thank you Hushlings. Dave: Yeah, that's it. Mike: Okay, so we're talking about the firmament currently. Now I just want everyone to know the actual definition of a firmament. So the firmament is the vault or arch of the sky. The firmament isn't necessarily something that is physical. It is something that is viewed. the [00:49:00] arch from one horizon to the other is the sky. That is the firmament. So when everybody's saying, oh, firmament, they're talking about the firmament, they're talking about something that's physically there. No, that's a viewpoint. The firmament refers to horizon. To horizon. The arch of the sky as you see it from one end of your viewpoint to the other Dave: Makes sense. There's a lot of that too, where it said that you're, uh, you have a personal viewing bubble and I think that's misinterpreted as what you're actually, what you can see you go up a 1500 foot mountain, you look around, you can see 360 degrees.  Mike: that's your firmament. Dave: that's your firmament. Fronk: One bar from Suicide Boy's last album. One of them goes Dome. So good. I think she think the earth is flat mouth like the fucking firmament. She got my eyes rolling back. There you go.  Mike: it says it all. Fronk: [00:50:00] It says it all, it says it all your, your mouth has a firmament. Mike: Show me what that firmament do. Fronk: land ho. We have hit the ice walls and the absence of the poles along the edge of our local area exists a massive 150 foot ice wall. This ice wall is on the coast of Antarctica, and The wall is absolutely gargantuan, made up of solid water, ice that surrounds our world and holds our world's oceans in.   And the South Pole does not exist, whereas the North Pole is just a giant mountain called a hyperly that you can't visit. Dave: The ice walls were discovered by Sir James Clark, who was a British naval officer and polar explorer who was amongst the first adventure to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the south magnetic pole between 1768 and 1779. [00:51:00] Upon confronting the massive vertical front of ice heat famously remarked. Mike: "It was an obstruction of such character as to leave no doubt in my mind as to our future proceedings for we might as well sail through the Cliffs of Dover as to penetrate such a mass. That's what she said. It would be impossible to conceive a more solid looking mass of ice. Not the smallest appearance of any rent or fisher. Could we discover throughout the whole of its extent and the intensely bright sky beyond it, but too plainly indicated. The great distance to which it wreaths, southward " Dave: apparently it took him three years or so to do one of the journeys and he circumnavigated the globe at 77,000 miles. what if he did it three times and did [00:52:00] 77,000 miles? That's the one thing that I've always thought is that, was it one trip  Fronk: And he just didn't know Mike: But again, in the 18 hundreds, let's say that this guy goes and he encounters an ice shelf, would he not think that was an ice wall? Dave: yeah, Fronk: like, oh shit. Well this is the edge of the world I suppose. Mike: there's no going past this. My ship can't go through that. Dave: I mean, yeah, that would be logical. Mike: I think this is what we said in the first one, a lot of these arguments for a flat earth revert back to like this 18 hundreds knowledge. Let's look at this book from the 18 hundreds. Look, they mentioned the firmament. Let's look at this. they talk about ice stones and blah, blah, blah. Fronk: The future is a lie. . The truth lies in the 18 hundreds. Reject modernity, Now all of this would of course, imply that Antarctica isn't at all what they say. And we've [00:53:00] mentioned this quite a bit about the Antarctic treaty already and the Antarctic bases and all of the secrets that they hide and you can't go there. You're not allowed There. Only scientists. Yeah. That's where they're hiding the edge of the.  Dave: Let's board a plane real quick and try to go to Antarctica. I know we say we can get there by ship, but two major arguments about airplanes with the flat earth theory is one, there's no round trip flights to Antarctica. And I think we covered this briefly in our first one where we had said, Antarctica fucking sucks. And that's probably why there's no round trip flights and how a lot of the Southern Hemisphere flights cannot be explained. And I believe we went over that a lot in our first episode. And I still stick by all of what I thought about that. Now, the other question that comes up with this theory  one, can you see curve in a commercial aircraft? And two, the aircraft always has to be pitching nose down after a [00:54:00] certain amount of time. Those two arguments come up major in this theory. So I wanna get your thoughts on do planes always have to tip downward as you're flying? Cuz you've all been on flights before, Fronk: No, the plane isn't nose diving or it doesn't feel like it anyway. It doesn't seem like it's nose diving by any means. Dave: but you would feel it. You can feel drop in altitude when you're starting to descend and you feel that, whew, almost that weird weightlessness when they drop a couple hundred feet or a thousand feet pretty quickly. You can feel turbulence, obviously. , I don't think that it necessarily pitches downward after a certain distance because I think, like I said earlier, planes are tiny and the earth is huge. So I don't think there's that much effect of a plane having to move when it's floating on top of a surface of air. Fronk: If a plane pitched downwards while at like max [00:55:00] altitude, wouldn't it just start losing altitude? Wouldn't you just be going towards the ground or am I being peanut brained? Dave: If planes were going in the straight path following the Earth's curve, then they would fly off into space. That's what they say. And I think it's simpler than that. Planes fly in a certain area from 35,000 to 50,000 feet, especially commercial aircraft in a certain layer of air that's thinnest. Which is why they can move as fast as they can, but I don't believe that they're pitching because they're so tiny that everything is going to appear flat at 35,000 feet cuz the earth is so big. Mike: , they're maintaining a certain altitude from the ground, so they're not pitching anything. They're just going with the natural atmosphere of the earth. Dave: Gravity.  Mike: Yeah.    Dave: The plane thing never, never made too much sense to me, especially with the flying off into space. If you didn't compensate for curvature, it's because the Plains Center [00:56:00] mass is always perpendicular with the ground and the plane is so insignificantly small. That you will not notice those changes. You notice left and right banks on planes, , you take a direction moving towards another city, you see it, you feel the whole plane go and you're looking towards the ground. If you're ascending, you feel that inertia you're getting pulled up into the air, especially on takeoffs. Or if you're descending, you feel that, oh, the pilot goes, we're gonna be descending in a couple minutes, and all of a sudden you feel that that drop, you feel that motion left, right, and vertical but you don't feel those nudges that they say that they're doing. So I don't think that that happens. I just think the center mass of that plane is fighting against gravity to keep it up. It's a boat in the sky. Mike: even if they did, that's a continuous compensation. So it's not like they're flying a certain distance and then going, oh, well I'm eight inches above where I was before. I need to adjust. Even if that was the truth, they would just make manual [00:57:00] adjustments as they went. So over that period of time, a half inch, a quarter inch, whatever you wouldn't even be able to tell in the first place if that was the case. Fronk: And that would only be if you were flying like across the world. I'm sure it's even less so if you're flying from somewhere on the east coast down to like Minnesota or something, it's gonna be even less noticeable if you're traveling somewhere that local. Dave: You're only traveling a couple hundred miles. Fronk: Yeah, exactly. Mike: I'm sure the figures are out there, but how many flat earthers are from America versus from the rest of the world? Dave: Good question. Mike: just wondering. Dave: I don't know the answer to that. I would say there's a lot in America. America is a very conspiracy driven country at the moment, and flat earth boils down to every other conspiracy. If you believe wholeheartedly in this, you believe everything else, the lies, everything is fake. Your entire [00:58:00] existence is fake. that's from what I get Fronk: That sucks. And then, and then from that point where do they go with that? They yell at other people about it or We're gonna briefly go over the eclipse aspect of flat earth theory. Now, we all obviously know what eclipses are. That's when the moon aligns with the sun and the earth and blocks out the sun. You know the deal. and remember that the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun. It's also about 400 times closer to the earth than the sun is. Is that coincidence that this astronomical phenomenon happens? Uh, Dave: Well, I can tell you from the flat earth side that that is almost impossible.  Mike: It's pretty impossible either way. Like it's pretty coincidental. I will give it to them that when you're talking about the sun and the moon being these like perfect distances and these perfect sizes and these per that's intriguing to say the least. I will give them. Dave: Which we did go over[00:59:00] Hollow moon theory if the moon was placed here, it was placed here on purpose, but then that would give weight to some type of, maybe not creationism, but some type of external control or external observation, which I think all of us are on the fence with that.  That could be, it could not be, Mike: Again, prove to me that any of this is real Dave: So there's two types of eclipses. There's solar and lunar eclipses. Now, the way solar eclipses work is that the moon orbits in between the sun and the earth. And when that occurs, obviously the moon blocks out the sunlight. You see the corona bought a bing. You have a solar eclipse, and the moon also casts a shadow on the earth. Now, a lot of the times it's told that the moon can't cast this little tiny pin prick shadow that goes across the earth. But if the moon is relatively 200,000 miles away, why couldn't it?  Mike: According to flat Earth theorists, this astronomical phenomenon is [01:00:00] actually a glimpse of a mysterious shadow object that orbits the sun and occasionally passes in front of the moon. From our point of view, could it be planet X Nibiru? No. This object is known as the anti moon. That's new Dave: another random object in our solar system. We could go on and on about eclipses, but we have to talk about one of the biggest fallacies of our education system. Gravity, Mike: not real. Dave: not real. Now, one of the most well agreed upon theories is general relativity. And it is the theory of gravitation developed by our boy Albert Einstein, who was apparently a conman according to flat earthers. And between 1907 and 1915, he figured all this out. The theory of general relativity says that an observe gravitational effect between masses results from their warping of space time. Gravity is still just a theory to us. I guess we can all be on the fence [01:01:00] on it cause we really don't get it. And I think scientists have , admitted that they don't get it,  Mike: Well, didn't recently they say that they had to like rework that entire thought process for some discovery that they had found that the theory of relativity had to be, had to be rethought or it was not necessarily wrong entirely, but partially, I guess., it had to do with the way that a black hole was working, where for the first time they saw a star coming out of a black hole. Fronk: Yeah, I saw that it was being regurgitated. They saw light coming out of a black hole. That's right. Mike: Things are happening, man. Whether you believe in space or not, it's. Pretty wild. Fronk: Newton's love gravitation states every point Mass attracts every single other point mass by a force acting along the line intersecting both points. I don't know what that means. The force is proportional to the product of the two [01:02:00] masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Exactly. That's what I've been saying this whole Mike: Sounds about right. Thanks boys. Well, what is gravity? According to this theory, it's stated that the earth isn't pulled into a sphere because the force known as gravity exists in a greatly diminished form compared to what is commonly taught, which is that we're being pulled down to the center of the earth while. The flat Earth is constantly accelerating up at a rate of 32 feet per second squared or 9.8 meters per second squared. As we had previously mentioned, this constant acceleration causes what you think of as gravity, but it's actually caused by a universal accelerator known as dark energy or Etheric wind. Never heard of Etheric wind. That's interesting, Fronk: time's that post Taco Bell shit's my etheric wind. Dave: [01:03:00] Furthermore with this we hear words like density and buoyancy a lot in these theories arguments, which is why things fall to the ground that are heavier and explains rockets, which are thought to actually be filled with helium and have a pyrotechnic show. that proves that all things fall at 9.8 meters squared.   Dave: All right boys, we're getting towards the end of our flat earth expedition here. But we have to go back in the sky. That brings us to rockets and satellites. As we just mentioned. Proponents of flat earth theory believe that satellites totally exist, but cannot be seen from the ground and are actually held in the atmosphere by helium balloons. Hence why NASA is the largest consumer of helium and they sometimes crash into the planet, which we call them weather balloons. And I guess that would explain the weather balloon phenomenon.  Fronk: Satellites in low earth orbit are constantly fighting gravity. According to science, some are geographically fixed and keep their [01:04:00] orbit by balancing two factors, their velocity, which is the speed required to travel in a straight line and their gravitational pull to the earth. To resist the stronger gravitational pole, a satellite orbiting closer to the earth requires more velocity. And of course, we're not going to get out of this debriefing without a little bit of NASA sprinkled in that bitch. Mike: Yes, good old nasa, our friends over there, professional cgi. It's widely assumed that humans have never left the Earth's atmosphere. In fact, we've never left earth and entered space because we lack the ability to do so in the first place unless you're a Nazi and a U-boat. Most of what society has been taught about space is completely made up or greatly exaggerated. By the government and or the elites. There's also the claim that humans have never landed on the moon. I'm with that, and that the infamous moon landings witnessed by the entire world in [01:05:00] 1969 were a sham. Fronk: Okay. I'll give them that. A major claim is that any pictures from the Apollo 11 mission that show that our planet as a sphere in the distance were fabricated by the government and nasa and NASA's mission is not to hide the shape of the earth or trick people into thinking it's round or anything else of the sort. Dave: Well, that's what NASA says, right?  We obviously know that there's some type of space travel conspiracy, whether it's more advanced or it doesn't exist. Possibly Nasa's mission is to create the illusion of space travel in order to, cover for the military, and their dominance in space. One thing we forgot to mention that I thought of real quick when you guys were talking is the quick notion on gravity. There's a lot of flat earthers that will say, well, can you jump, when you jump off the earth, you a hundred, 200 pound person jumping off the earth. Do you come back [01:06:00] down? And was it easy to jump? Then why is gravity so strong? Fronk: that's the whole argument of like, why does Gravity hold our planet's, oceans On  Dave: Yeah. Yeah. If it can  hold all this water and all this mass,  why can you jump off your roof and hit the ground? Mike: Because there is a different pull depending on the mass of the object.  Dave: Mike wins a gold star Fronk: gold sticker for you. Mike: boys, let's get into our final thoughts. Everything that was on Reddit, we've been through, we've done this whole thing. I wanna know the final thoughts as we get into stage two of becoming a flat earth. are we now believing that gravity is not real? The sun is a, lamp and uh, and we live on a flat plain, surrounded by an ice wall. Dave, are you a flat earther? Dave: No. sadly, I am not a flat earther. I think it's an [01:07:00] interesting theory that opens up a lot of more conspiracies and there are some valid questions, but I think a lot of it has to do with our lack of actually being able to see things because we are restricted beings. Uh, the one thing about flat earth theory that I find really fascinating is the suppression of information, the hidden things. And I think that's the conspiratorial part that really pulls me, believing that it is a different shape or an infinite plane or a snow globe, or, flatterers is gonna get so mad at me for saying that because we don't believe it's a snow globe. It doesn't look like a pancake. They all have different theories and a lot of it goes back to religion. A lot of it goes to creationism. A lot of it goes back to every other conspiracy you've ever heard of. So for me, still, I still think we live on a planet. the definition of planet is what we live on. Is it a perfect sphere? I think that's proven that it's not a perfect sphere.[01:08:00] I'm not a scientist, but I've done research and research and research and supposedly it takes up to two weeks or so to become a flat earth. I've been doing this research since like the end of July, and I'm still not convinced. wanted to give it a fair shake. Didn't wanna be a douche bag. Would invite any flat earth to come on and talk to us. We'd love to have you on, but You didn't get me yet. Mike: I will take my final thoughts, a complete left turn here. I don't care. I don't care whether it's a giant paella pan or if we live on a dodge ball. I, I don't care. I don't care. Maybe it's the blue pilled part of my brain that still exists. I don't give a shit. It doesn't change anything. I'm still gonna wake up in the morning and have to go to work, have to pay my taxes, and eventually I'm gonna fucking die. That's just the way that it is. I don't care if we live on a flat plane, I don't care if we live on a globe. It's just the way that [01:09:00] it is. but I don't think that we live on a fly plane. I'm just gonna say that I don't think that I, I do think that there is a lot of cover up of our former history. That much I believe is true. I do believe that NASA is filled with a bunch of liars and they do fabricate things including, setting up these videos where they're watching astronauts float around, but the water stays in a cup. That's an interesting one. , I do think that they do composite images together and they are a bunch of liars that I completely agree with. . I love you whether you're a flat earth or not, but no, it's a no for me. Fran, give us your final thoughts. Did you become a flat earther in this episode?   Fronk: No, I didn't. , I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say that I tried to give flat earth theory, the benefit of [01:10:00] the doubt, but I tried to stay open-ended, especially towards like the beginning of the episode. I was just trying to like see it from both sides and I still do to an extent. And you're right in saying that their best argument is the space shit and nasa, but, that can't be all you're going off of here, because that, lends to so much other shit besides just the shape of the planet.  And not only that, if you're like sold on the shape of the planet, then you've been deceived. You know what, I'm gonna pull a flirter and tell you what you've been taught on. The internet is wrong, and it's all code. You've been tricked into thinking that what we live on is physical and that it has shape. There is no shape. I've never even been out of the country. You can't even convince me that Australia's real, let alone the, the, the fucking shape of the  Mike: you're partial flat earther because they don't believe that Australia is real either. Fronk: [01:11:00] Oh, no. Australia's not real Mike: listen, if you're in Australia and you, uh, you live there full time, reach out to us. Send us an email. Even better a voicemail, because I just want to hear the accent. Send us a voicemail and say, Hey, yeah, I exist. I'm here. This is a real place. Dave: Clearly they exist. They're number three on our Spotify Mike: That's right. Thanks Australia. Fronk: No, I, I never tried to doubt Australia. It was a metaphor, but Dave: Our Hustralians down under, Mike: That's hilarious. Dave: , if we offended you we're sorry. Well, I partially am. Mike: I, I, listen, I tried this episode. I think that I was better than the first episode. I didn't sit there and say anybody was an idiot or any of that stuff. like I said, you believe what you wanna believe, but on, at the end of the day, I don't think that it really matters. Fronk: And if it makes you feel [01:12:00] special, by all means,

Drea Burbank is an M.D.-technologist and serial entrepreneur whose work is focused on applying high-tech from hard science into critical sectors. She has projects from artificial intelligence, cryptocurrency, to stem-cells, and microbiome science. Her interdisciplinary skill set comes from a dedication to reducing barriers to innovation at the intersection of medicine, technology, and research, and the pursuit of enriching public health through these developments. Drea Burbank brings so much to the table in the world of medicine and tech, and it was insightful to hear what she had to share. Tune in as she talks about struggles inherent in healthcare technology, her passion for public health, spirituality, and her work with indigenous groups. HIGHLIGHTS [00:46] Drea Burbank in Background in Medicine and Technology [06:59] Her Current Projects [08:04] Challenges of Electronic Healthcare Systems [12:09] Bringing in More Tech to the Healthcare Industry in Terms of Security and Care [19:07] Lifestyle Approaches to Healthcare [22:33] Drea's Interest in Public Health, Preventative Medicine, and Spirituality [26:21] On Spirituality and Medicine [33:43] Drea's Thoughts on the Intersection of Medicine and Technology with Spirituality [38:37] More on Drea's Current Conservation Project [42:59] Takeaways from Working With Indigenous Cultures [47:05] Importance of Health Data and Sensor Technology 00:02 Dave: Hey everyone, welcome back to another season of Data-Driven Health Radio, I’m your host Dave Korsunsky. On this show we dive deep into how you can use data to measure, manage and optimize your health with the latest science and technology. This show is brought to you by Heads Up which is our web and mobile app designed for individuals and healthcare professionals who need a precise way to measure and manage health data. Check us out on headsuphealth.com. If you’ve got comments, questions or feedback on this show shoot us an email support@headsuphealth.com, we’d love to hear from you, and with that said let’s get into our next exciting episode. 00:47 Dave: Hey everyone, welcome back to Data-Driven Health Radio and I have a very special guest today Drea Burbank, she is an MD and a technologist and a million other things that I could not actually have time to finish going through in anticipation of this interview but I just went down the rabbit hole of Drea in all of the interesting projects that she has her hands on so, we are gonna get into all kinds of really, really interesting topics related to health, optimization, technology, some of Drea’s personal passion projects that she is working on that she wants to share with the world. So, Drea, we first got on your radar screen because you had written some content around the struggles that are inherent with electronic record systems and that’s actually why I started my whole company in the first place. So, we will have lots to talk about there, really just like, can I even get a trend line of the most important health metrics that matter to my existence above ground, it was a nightmare. It was like paper records and patient portals and I was trying to work on a health issue and I just needed a simple trend line of like inflammation markers and to this day that is still impossible so I would really like to dig in there and we’ll branch off from there. But Drea, if I may, I would like to take a crack at your background just from like the initial cursory research I did cause there was just some absolute gems on your website, can I and then you can correct me. 02:17 Drea: Yeah sure, I’m curious to see what your takeaway was. 02:20 Dave: Alright, so I just scribbled a few things here but Drea is an MD-technologist and she is a digital nomad with a yoga addiction, love that. She pretends to live San Francisco but we don’t actually know if she lives in San Francisco, yoga dirtbag, professional pyromaniac, uptight uber nerd and smartass. So those were the nuggets I pulled off the site. Welcome Drea to our show. 02:48 Drea: Thank you, I am so happy to be here. 02:50 Right on. Well, let’s just start with something simple like the content, the piece you put out there around inherent challenges with electronic health records, technology like I said that’s why we built our company but I’d love to hear about your background as an MD first and foremost, sounds like you probably ran into a lot of those challenges but maybe we could just start with your background in healthcare and the types of work you did or maybe still doing in the medical field and then lets go from there into all these other amazing worlds that we can open up. 03:23 Drea: Yeah, happy to talk to about it. So, I grew up off the grid in central Idaho, I did 9 years in forest fires and then I went to medical school in Canada. I was in a rural and remote training program and.. 03:35 Dave: Where in Canada? I’m from Canada. 03:37 Drea: Really? I was in Kelowna, I was the first of four medical students in the hospital in Kelowna. 03:42 Dave: It’s beautiful up there. 03:43 Drea: It was stunning. We were so lucky they had just, they had kept med students out of the hospital for a long time and a lot of the, you know, top clinicians across Canada would retire to Kelowna cause it was a kind of a beachfront property for Canada. 03:56 Dave: Yeah. 03:57 Drea: And they ran the hospital the way they had always wanted to run their hospitals so the nurses basically functioned like residents, and they had a really collaborative relationship with the physicians and they had a huge catchment area so they would pull all kinds of specialty cases but they still did overnight call from the hospital. So, I worked with mostly attending physicians and I had just had a really idyllic version of medicine. Yeah, it was like the best of specialty care with generalist care and like good working relationships, interdisciplinary, yeah and really, really talented physicians, clinically talented. So, we had a daw system in the hospital that had been introduced and I was watching these amazing physicians trying to use this daw system and I was like I could do better I started playing Plants vs. Zombies and I was like wow you could just do something like this it would be easy. Yeah, so, I think sometimes that naivete is necessary to do interesting things, you’re like oh this would be easy. So, I was like well I’m just going to do a year in Silicon Valley, I’ll design something and then I’ll, I’ll come back to medicine. 04:59 Dave: I got ya, so that was what kind of like, first of all you’re a US citizen but you went to Kelowna to do the training, is that correct? 05:06 Drea: So, I was a forest firefighter and I followed it north. I started following big stacks in British Coloumbia, all the best falling if your you know a logger or forest firefighter happens in Canada so I really wanted to learn that. I married a Canadian and I was already in Canada so when I went back to school I went to school for medicine in Canada. 05:24 Dave: And then that experience got you down to Silicon Valley to start working on technology centric problems in healthcare, is that accurate? 05:33 Drea: Yeah, I still think that if you want to get really hard tech skills you gotta go to Silicon Valley. I know that sounds exclusionary but the competition in Silicon Valley is global and so when you go there you end up working with the best people from all over the world. There are other tech hubs obviously, Toronto has a great tech hub, Vancouver does, Austin all these other placed I was just in Dubai and it’s great but if you want to get that really, really hardcore skillset I think you need to spend some time in the Valley. 06:01 Dave: Yeah, I spent the better part of 10 years out there, I was in Paolo Alto working at VMware and that’s where I got to really like build my skills, work alongside all of these amazingly brilliant people just learn how that whole industry works out there. I don’t think I really could have started a company, I probably could have, but the skills I learned there are I think just inherently part of what’s helping me stay successful is just cutting my teeth in Silicon Valley basically. 06:32 Drea: You don’t have to stay there I just, they have got a really good ecosystem like if you go to Stanford hospital a lot of the academics will leave for a couple of years, start a tech company and then go back to Stanford so they kind of like cycle through and the hospital is pretty good, they have got a like a really nice like, I worked with Nirav Shah for a little bit he is a computer science professor who works with a lot of the doctors, Nimar Agaeepour so they are just super integrated with the clinical needs and that’s where, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it anywhere else. 06:59 Dave: So, are you practicing now or are you mostly working on other types of projects? 07:04 Drea: Yeah, I left clinical medicine in 2018, we got drafted to work on all kinds of high-tech stuff during Covid. We ended up running a concierge Covid testing network for Hollywood which was so random, I was just, they called us, they couldn’t work at all during the height of the virus and they asked us to get test results back and we were like yeah we can do that it’ll be easy. So we, they were getting their test results back in 7 days from Labgen it was our TPCR we got our first results back in 6 hours and then every producer in Hollywood called us and we ended up testing like NFL players, sports broadcasters during the height of the shutdown. So, that was a lot of fun for us because it was basically using both sides of our head you know, like, the ability to scale really rapidly comes from my tech but the ability to do like serious work like a legitime RTPCR test that no body can question is, comes from medicine and we really like those kind of projects. We’re highly serious but we can still access all these different skills. 08:03 Dave: Awesome, I love it. Well, just kind of going back to like how we first got on your radar it was really looking at the inherent challenges of EHR systems. I was reading through the article and there’s implications in terms of the amount of extra load that it puts on to a providers workday. There’s the challenges of actually how can we even start pulling the data out of these systems and doing more with it, that’s why Heads Up started because we wanted to find a way to allow an individual to pull in all of their information regardless of what system it’s in and then also the data that they are using on the sensors at home, you know, all these sensors, CGM’s different devices that we can use now are actually getting incredible data, patients now actually have incredible data they have higher fidelity data than the doctor does, they have more contextualized data than the doctor does. They don’t have the clinical expertise necessarily to do a lot of the interpretation but there is incredibly promising startups out there that are bringing medical technology to individuals and building user experiences that help them understand their bodies own bio feedback. So, what we try to do at Heads Up was say how do I get all that lab data in cause that’s stuff your testing once a year, once every six months and if you’re making correct modifications in diet and lifestyle or maybe you’re already in a good place, you’re making optimizations in diet and lifestyle or maybe you’re in a red zone state health wise and you need to change certain things in your daily routine so we wanted to find a way to overlay lifestyle metrics coming from sensors and devices with more like episodic clinical data. So, that’s what we do at Heads Up. I know you and I haven’t really had a chance to talk at any level of depth but we really wanted to build like the agnostic analytics layer in healthcare which was really lacking and we needed a way to quickly plug in new technology, new data sources, new devices, new types of information and then what we wanna do is build an analytics layer and then an intelligence layer on top of it but maybe you could just summarize like what some of the top pain points are that you put in an article for everyone who is listening and then we can kinda go from there, they were pretty succinct. 10:23 Drea: Yeah, I was, it was a little profane but that is one of my tendencies from firefighting 10:27 Dave: I saw that on your website that you dropped a lot of profanities and f-bombs, we are gonna get along great. 10:33 Drea: Yeah, there is something about the stress relief aspect of it for me, but yeah, I think so the first thing I wanted to say yes somethings going wrong, like a lot of doctors are so stuck down in their trees they are not realizing their forest is getting cut down and they’re feeling the pain but they’re feeling it without any kind of like conscious awareness of like why that forest is getting cut down when the larger market forest is behind it. So, I wanted to acknowledge that something is wrong and it’s so wrong that it has to change at some kind of a critical level. Yeah. 11:03 Dave: I would agree with that, I mean just, we had an experience recently working with a large health system and it was actually to the point where it was impossible to do business with them due to a lot of these limitations and we all just chased our tails around for 18 months and then the project got shut down and went nowhere. So like, that’s I dunno, that’s what we are up against basically. 11:22 Drea: Yeah, it’s literally like it’s become a complete heart block to use a medical term. The physicians are leaving the profession in droves right now and we hear all these statistics about burn out and physicians wanting to leave and it’s being attributed to Covid but I don’t think it has anything to do with Covid. I think Covid was just like you know, the straw on the camels back, what I think it’s about is like the quality of the workday of the average physician and these are sensitive people who are high performing who are intellectual, they are hardworking and if they are burning out there is something extremely wrong, and doctors in particular because we feel such a, you know, obligation to give more and more and more and more and that’s impressed on us from such an early age in training and we get a lot of like social positive social feedback for all the things that we give so when we are burning out there’s something wrong with that. 12:08 Dave: Yeah, and you were also making some comments around how do we help the profession as a whole bring in more technology. How do we help them bring in more of the latest types of things like digital health technology that could enhance what they do and provide better patient care but I think one of the points that you were making is that there’s really even an inability to bring in innovation at this point so even if there was a desire there is no innovation reaching these types of professionals. Did I get that right? 12:38 Drea: Yeah, well what I wanted to say was that this is not happening by accident there is a layer of for profit EHR systems that profit from not providing high quality technology and blocking high quality technology from entering, and the only people who can break through that membrane is doctors themselves and to ask them to do that is a lot because they are already like overwhelmed they don’t necessarily know what to ask for and they don’t feel like there is any help on the other side of that membrane. But, in reality there is all kinds of very useful technologies that cannot penetrate right now like what you are working on. 13:16 Dave: Yeah, so if we were to kind of like wipe the slate clean and start over again for example, when we work with physicians in other countries for example, there’s one system for everybody. So, at least they’ve got all the data in one place, we’ve got the data in 30,000 places right now. So, there’s that issue of data fragmentation and then there’s obviously the inherent security challenges, like one of the challenges of trying to work with this large health system is just like the number of ransomware attacks that they’re dealing with on a daily basis and it’s like 9 months just to get their security team just to give you the thumbs up because they are under so much threat from a security point of view so like there’s that whole angle of it, and then there’s the ability to like also be innovate but also keep the Titanic moving in the right direction, you know what I mean? So like, how could we imagine a better way to do this type of thing, I don’t know that there is an answer right now but when you think about it what would the next iteration look like. 14:23 Drea: Well first I wanna go after the security thing cause the security thing is why doctors are always told you have bad health tech because there is a security risk. There is only a bad security risk because it’s terrible software, anybody at [unsure] nuclear power we have got a cohort that is nuclear power cyber security and everybody knows if you wanna hack somebody’s system you go after health tech because it’s so poorly designed. There’s just no excuse… 14:43 Dave: It’s a fundamental issue in the technology, that makes sense. 14:46 Drea: Yeah, it’s so badly built on the backend.. 14:48 Dave: and 500 different servers connected to the internet… 14:50 Drea: Yeah, that’s why they’re so busy they are playing like whack-a-mole for like a terrible system with a bunch of holes in it. So yeah, I see that a lot doctors are like oh I have terrible software because it’s so unsecure, no it’s unsecure because you have terrible software so yeah that first. Second off, so I have two solutions that I think are absolutely critical of physicians, you know I’ve been drilling down on them pretty hard because after 10 years you start to look at what’s the solution, like I just get tired of problems. So, the two solutions I think are absolutely critical is that medicine needs to create a technology specific specialty it’s become critical, I don’t like using that word but it’s become critical. Doctors do not own technology as a profession, they will continue to rely on external professions providing their technology and they’re never gonna have the context that clinical training is unique. Somebody asked me the other day what I meant by clinical, and I said I mean putting your hands on 1000 patients with undiagnosed conditions with legal skin in the game for their outcomes, that’s clinical and then once you do that, okay yeah, now you can start looking at if there’s any technology for doctors but if you don’t do that you don’t know what they are thinking and more importantly you don’t have the same risks like doctors have so much professional, legal and financial risk for any mistakes that happen in medicine that if you can’t have empathy for that you’re never gonna understand their aversion to experimenting so that’s the first thing. Second thing is I think doctors have a really good legal case for opening, for cracking the software interfaces open and I think if they were able to crack the interfaces open they could bring better technology in by default. Technology companies would flood in the door and then if they had an app like interface they could select the ones they liked and that would just solve so many problems all at once, cause I know probably like 20 different apps that are usable, solve clinical problems and do a great job, they are HIPAA secure, they are way more secure than most hospital systems but doctors can’t buy them or use them or get to them in their regular workday because they don’t run on top of these interfaces. 16:51 Dave: That’s the challenge we just ran into was we had medical professionals in the system that wanted to use our technology to solve a very specific problem and they introduced us to a group that could help us get shepherded in to the front door, you know, so we had a sponsor that was a very clear use case, it was a program that was going to integrate the oura ring into a sleep optimization type of a program a pretty simple thing and we went down the path of trying to make this available to this group which was super exciting for us and it was the most dysfunctional red tape failed project I have ever been a part of, we couldn’t even get it, it was impossible we failed after like 18 months of spinning our wheels. So like you said, even if there was an interface where they were like hey I love this I want to apply this it meets all the security requirements, it’s HIPAA, it’s validated it was not possible. 17:49 Drea: These are legal problems for two reasons and this is coming from, I did a year in tobacco control and I worked with Stan Glantz. Stan Glantz got the unmarked boxes of tobacco documents back in like the 80’s, somebody sent him like 20 boxes of unmarked documents and then he went to court and like you know he’s a pretty hard headed guy he took it across California, he legislated tobacco and his back take away I remember one day he was standing there and he was waiving his hands in front of me, I talked to him for like an hour, and he was like if it’s for profit it’s a legal problem. So the people that made it impossible for your doctors to get your technology and for your technology to get in benefitted financially and when that happens, when they have a financial incentive to block new software from coming in to block the data on the backend from going out the only solution is legal and I think in this case, the people with the best and sharpest legal case are clinicians themselves because they can just tag the extra 6 hours they work a day and for doctors that’s a huge financial pace. They can tag those 6 hours to a class action and they don’t even have to be at mass for it they have to be individually recognized but for a class action, you have to get enough doctors saying yeah I worked an extra 6 hours a day and here’s my salary and then a legal firm will litigate it on their behalf. 19:07 Dave: Yeah, well when we started building out product and taking it to market we obviously were aware of the challenges of going into the conventional systems. We were well aware of the boneyard of startups that died on the vine trying to sell a great solution into a system and just ran out of cash even just like waiting to get a pilot agreement approved. It was extremely challenging and so what we did was we entered the market through what I would call more lifestyle medicine and we entered the market for us through the cash based side of healthcare and the types of practitioners that don’t take insurance, they used to work in the system and they have left and they are now in private practice and they are doing holistic or integrated or functional care, same types of things but they are now compensated in a way that allows them to spend 60/90 minutes with you going over a specific type of a situation. You’re paying them cash, you’re paying them out of pocket generally but those were the professionals who said okay I would pay this product and I’ll use it because it is giving me insights into what’s happening to my patients outside the office so now I can get a really, really precise view into lifestyle factors that are driving a health outcome like why does this persons blood sugar hit 180 every night at 9pm and then they have a crap sleep right, so like we started selling it to that market because they understood the value of the data, they could make really quick decisions, they could evaluate a product, sign with us and have this up and running in a week versus like what we went through at some of the larger systems. So, the way we though about it was well let’s go into this, I don’t even know what the right word for it is, I will just call it like integrative market for now, they were already doing a lot of lifestyle medicine they wanted to know what was happening to you during the day, they wanted to know what you were eating, they wanted to know certain information about maybe certain genetic snips, they wanted to run more advanced diagnostic testing in some cases that would be really hard to get a regular doctor to run something exploratory. Like, can you test these 10 things I don’t even know if there’s going to be anything there but I wanna keep going, I wanna dig deeper. So, we just kind of like found our tribe bringing our product in through that market and the reason I bring that up is because it looks like a lot of your professional interests are also in this world of integrative approaches to healthcare even just things like yoga it sounds like you are yogi. I also, I teach yoga, I teach kundalini yoga, Ashely who you connected with on my team. Ryan who you connected with on my team is a yoga teacher so like bringing that part in I wanna talk about your work in rainforests as well but you also dropped a little few clues on your book which I just ordered around shamanism so like there’s the plant medicine side of the house and that gets into mental health stuff which is like super important and I’m super excited to see things like ketamine and sustivan starting to come to life in clinical significant ways. So, it just seems that you also think that way and maybe you could just share on like some of your thoughts on the lifestyle approaches to health that are most interesting for you. 22:34 Drea: Yeah, so wow, okay, Canada is a great system and there is a lot of public health focus so I got a ton of public health training during my training and I was like dramatically interested in plastic surgery and micro surgery which is like the far end of down stream like and then I was really also simultaneously interested in preventative medicine and public health, and I ended up going the public health route. It was a tough choice, I loved both of them but my brain’s a little bit more lateral so I was like you know public health is going to be better for me. So I went into preventative medicine and then I started chasing that rabbit hole and I chased it around the world, you know, I looked at ayurvedic medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, indigenous medicine and the more I looked at it the more I saw like subtle effects of preventative medicine. It’s so holistic it’s hard to measure in the data, so I got really interested in that aspect and yes there is a tribe for that. I am a certified bikram yoga teacher so I did a project a few months ago, about 6 months ago, where I did twice daily 90 minute classes of bikram for 6 months and at the end of it… 23:33 Dave: You did it personally? 23:35 Drea: Yeah, it was fun and I did it in Thailand with […] and yeah […] a character and I’m a character we had a lot of fun. 23:43 Dave: I wish I had the time to do two bikram classes a day. I’m lucky if I get in one a week these days. 23:49 Drea: It was post Covid I was like totally burnt out and I was like, cause we did that testing network and then when the vaccine came out I was like that’s it I’m never working again so I went off for 6 months and then of course it didn’t take and I went back to work again afterwards but at the end of it I wrote this book and yes, it is out there, it’s of the other side of my brain the one I don’t talk about very often in a professional setting. But, yeah I have a strong, personally I have a strong spiritual experience that I would probably compare mostly to Shamanism or Zen Juadism I guess the type of Buddhist Christian Marie and Jed McKenna are like my favorites.  I think in the western world we tend to differentiate between spirituality and medicine, they are completely independent things and we don’t talk about spirituality or we delegate it to other people but that split doesn’t occur in all cultures so I just spent the last month in the Peruvian Amazon working with indigenous Shaman and they were explaining that as a Shaman they were like well first off, I’m a community leader so the role of a Shaman is to be a community leader and also I mentioned this split between spirituality and medicine in the west and they were just kind of aghast they were like how could you separate the two? That doesn’t even make sense and I was like yeah it’s really interesting that for them that was kind of like outside of the bounds of acceptability. Whereas for us it’s just like a given in medicine and I wonder how much of our frustration with the system is also a frustration with the concept of what is health, because we are so busy treating disease and it’s a bell curve obviously you know, disease and health and so little of our training is in this concept of health, like if we want to fix somebody when they are diseased then what does it look like when they are healthy and you know we don’t know that much about it like how many doctors know about blue zones or you know the longevity science or you know how many of them study professional athletes when they study musculoskeletal injuries. You know we just always assume that we have understood everything about the human body cause we have studied pathology but no we just really studied one end of the bell curve and I think that without a concept personally and professionally of what health is we can’t truly treat disease and that’s what a lot of these guys bring it is this idea of holistic mental health and we don’t have that in our society right now. 25:58 Dave: Well that is incredibly fascinating insight to like have deeper in which is like we have this bifurcation of spirituality and medicine. Arguably a bifurcation of lifestyle and medicine and I think that’s like another major gap especially when it comes to things like food for example and stress. So, how could we start to bring that type of care more into the mainstream? I also think that our mental health, the amount of mental health disease in our country is maybe in a lot of developed countries is probably moving in the wrong direction as fast as what you would consider typical chronic illness like obesity and heart disease and stuff like that, this is just a completely subjective assessment but like the mental health, the number of people that could be diagnosed with mental health issues might even be climbing as fast as some of those like rampant Neolithic diseases and so like the spirituality and medicine idea is incredible and it’s so far outside of the purview of where we are now here I don’t know how we could close the gap on that. I can only say that I am encouraged by the FDA starting to fast track research into certain psychedelic medicines and other compounds and I think that is a good start especially if that could be standard of care where you can get that type of treatment in a medically supervised environment with proper people who can help you integrate an experience and have that. I think that could be a huge step forward for us and it’s already happening with ketamine clinics, it’s not meant to be preventative at this point, it’s meant to be acute where typically you’re going in there with like extreme cases of treatment resistant depression or something like that. But the point is that you can go to a medical clinic and ask for that type of experience from a mental health point of view so what are your thoughts on bringing more of that into the mainstream and having that as a treatment option for people who may not be like at the extreme edge of mental health but they could just be dealing with everyday depression so there’s that aspect of spirituality. There’s also the aspect of spirituality that has nothing to do with plant medicines, it’s yoga and meditation and learning how to be fully present and aware with our own mind and our own body and that we’re part of a larger connected whole. So, when you think about spirituality and medicine, what comes up in terms of how we can change the status quo or what would you like to see happen in that domain? 28:43 Drea: Well, I like to call the attention to the work of doctors who are more embedded in the medical system cause I feel like I have the freedom to be you know to be openly spiritual cause I’m kind of outside of the medical system and I live in a much more like unrestricted environment so I like to call attention to the work of Eben Alexander who is a Harvard neurosurgeon who wrote a book about his near death experience and it’s brilliant, it’s compassionate, it’s kind and he has done a lot of work with death and dying. Another one of my favorite physicians is Gabor Maté, he is a Canadian physician and he wrote a book called “When the body says no”, I mean like everything he has written is genius and it’s very much integrable into western practice today as it stands. He has done his work, he has done his research and he can speak in kind of a code switching language. I wouldn’t call it spirituality but it’s kind of like applied spirituality within a western context. He has a new book coming out that’s “the myth of normal” and I strongly recommend it, I think it’s going to be genius and it’s kind of about this concept of health. And the last person I want to call attention to is Emily Silverman does a show called the nocturnist, it’s a podcast out of San Francisco and it’s storytelling for doctors and it’s kind of like it’s almost demonic in a sense of like catharsis that happens both in the show and then the storytelling and it’s very much a western, it’s a way to attach meaning to western experience that it kind of a religious. So, those are three doctors that are just you know straight up like super reputable but integrated in the system for a long time and they bring that aspect of meaning back to healthcare in a way that’s, I think, acceptable within current restrictions. I wanna talk about psychedelics, we have a cohort that does legalization of psychedelics and we were working on a legalization project in Colorado that’s also partnered with John’s Hopkins for psilocybin and we have practitioners that use ketamine and psilocybin in Canada, in L.A. and these are chiropractors, clinical psychologists and we have death doulas so it’s a group of people who basically is looking at how to integrate this deeper meaning in more functional ways. I always say as a yogi, as a yogi who has been in indigenous settings with indigenous people using psychedelics I will say that I think psychedelics are a tuning fork for the mind, they can give you a tone like something that you can hit but you can access those states with other ways that don’t involve external substances, so yoga, meditation, all these things kind of teach you how to tune your mind to a different channel and the end goal of I think of either using traditional psychedelics if that’s in your path or using yoga or meditation is to have more control over your consciousness states and what frequency your tuned into. And you can follow clinical psychology for that too, you know, there’s all kinds of great work coming our of functional MRI and neuroscience that teaches you how to do the same thing with neuro feedback and stuff so I don’t think the path matters so much as the conscious control over where your mind is at. This concept of metacognition and doctors are really good this, either they are always thinking about thinking and many of them do it in very like, I see surgeons all the time you know I remember seeing these surgeons, they would sit down they would have a call or something with a family member before a case and they would be emotionally stressed out but when they got into the case this just kind of calm would settle, you know really experienced surgeons, and they would go into like an output state and it was just that moment the patient, you know and they wouldn’t think about the outcomes they would just think about the process and like that is, I see doctors doing this all the time, you know, they go from one room with an angry, stressed out emotionally uncontrolled patient to another room you know with a happy family and a child and they dump it in between so how do they do that? We have this capacity we can do this. 32:23 Dave: Yeah, I like the way you framed it which is there’s lots of way to get there in terms of developing more of an inner awareness, there are plant medicine, there’s yoga. For me, the kundalini yoga that I have been doing for the last 18 months, 24 months, has been incredible that I think has helped, I’ve been doing meditation for a long time but more of the deliberate breath work and the types of practices that are much more emphasizing around the auric field and the connection with infinite. So, I’ve had really strong experiences through yoga and mediation and also through plant medicine and then you also brought up technology that’s coming on the market. Where it’s bringing more tools downstream to more people like neuro feedback types of tools and this device I just tested Brain Tab where you can put on a binaural beat guided meditation and have a simulated light experience in front of your eyes, like anybody can do that and so, it’s happening it’s just not part of the traditional system that’s out there, it;s kind of in this other side of healthcare that you put more into like wellness and digital health and other kinds of things like that, and it’s there, it’s not part of conventional medicine so is it ever possible that those worlds come together where they co-exist or are they separate completely? 33:50 Drea: So, I think I would be remiss if I wasn’t clear about this because my book is very clear about it I’m just not usually clear about it in my professional context. So, I had a full kundalini awakening that was involuntary at the end of medical school and that’s not a common thing. I think in the medical literature it’s characterized as a physio-kundalini syndrome is kind of how they describe it and yoga, it’s kind of an accepted norm. In India it’s been researched for thousands of years but when I first experienced it, it was completely outside of the bounds of my clinical or western training and I had no preparation for it. I did find people that understood it and helped me with it and I wrote my book primarily to help with people like me who have a western life and they have a scientific life and they want to find a way in integrate these two journeys in a way that they can later function, and I think in my book I compared it to the particle wave experience, you know and physicists just kind of intuitively get this so like yeah it’s a particle and it’s a wave it’s cool it’s the same thing, and it’s not, you’re like you know maybe it’s gonna split on this but it doesn’t really and so you can have this intensely spiritual journey I think and still function within the parameters of science because to me, as somebody who’s like the biggest Richard Feynman fan in the world and I just love empiricism and data, if I can get my hands on it you know like I love facts and so , somebody who loves facts I’m okay to have my facts contained within a much bigger world that I don’t understand and maybe never will, maybe my memory can never encompass it so I don’t consider my work in science or technology to be exclusionary to my spiritual world, it’s just my spiritual world is much bigger and I’m very comfortable with the border of what can know at any given time. 35:33 Dave: Well everything that we do here is about what can we actually quantify health so everything I do in my professional life is how can I objectively measure, how can I get as much data as possible on my health because it has changed the way I manage my own health in ways that I can’t even articulate. In fact, the data has changed how I manage my own health so profoundly that I have gone on and started this company to try to make this available to other people. Simple preventative things that you can do on your own and get objective data immediately to know if it’s working or not every single day, it can calibrate your health and your life in real time. So, like I’m similar, I want all the data that I can possibly get and then the other side of me is this other realm that is much more vast and unknown and they co-exist beautifully. I haven’t really found ways to bring them together in a commercially viable sense yet but I live in both of those worlds quite successfully as well and I;m trying to think of ways, maybe they never will come together in any formal way, maybe they are just completely separate parts of consciousness and life that don’t have any overlap. But I’m starting to put together pieces like I’m gonna be offering a retreat in May of next year and it will be all about health quantification and all about kundalini yoga. So I don’t know what’s gonna come out of that but it will be like sensors and kundalini in the same thing. 37:05 Drea: No, you know what came out of my 6 month bikram process where I was just deep in the reams of kind of like just letting everything go which is a very like unknown space, and I was like what am I gonna do next, I don’t even know. What came out of that was this really amazing project where we’re just doing reforestation so we’ve got an app, we do fair trade carbon offsets, we work with indigenous farmers who are the most practical people on the planet by the way, if they didn’t have a really rock solid sense of reality they wouldn’t survive in their environment, and we are paying them for carbon offsets directly and it was funny because I thought, you know, I’m just maybe gonna be a yoga teacher for the rest of my life maybe I’m just gonna wander off to the edge of spirituality and never come back. And so what happened was I came back in very concrete actionable and more precisely intellectual ways. I feel like the fuzz kind of went out of my head and I was able to appreciate more what is, and I think that this exploration of the unknown kind of, if you follow it far enough will bring you back to tangibles like what is now. It’s made me a better scientist. 38:10 Dave: Totally agree, same for me and it’s made me better at everything I do in my professional life which is highly technical and analytical and building this crazy cloud platform and the spirituality makes me a hundred times better at what I do. I think clearer, I’m more emphatic, it clarifies my sense of why so they just seem to reinforce each other quite nicely. 38:33 Drea: Yeah, I think Victor Frankl said if you have a why you can do any how. 38:36 Dave: Well, I wanna hear more about this project, I know you wanted to share more on it so can you tell us more about that work that you are doing in the Amazon? 38:44 Drea: Yeah, it’s crazy, so much fun. It’s indigenous led so I traveled to Colombia during kind of this period of my life and the indigenous group I was working with said hey you know we really wanna conserve, we have our own organization, we have been fighting off the loggers for 10 years, can you bring us some resources to do this with but we want no strings attached. I love that concept of no strings attached cause I see so many indigenous groups around the world, I work with indigenous groups in Canada and the US and Latin America and this concept of no strings attached is so important to indigenous health so I thought okay how do we even do that so I started looking at trust less validation systems so like GPS, machine learning on smart phones the various cart drones to measure carbon sequestration and we looked at ways that they could prove that they were reforesting without having to do a lot of middle men and without having this people going onto their land and doing surveys who weren’t from their region and I think we came up with a pretty good simple method they can run outside of cell service on a cellphone. We also experimented we can pay them directly with micro-payments so I can conserve carbon for pennies on the dollar which is great because what’s actually killing tropical forests and consequently our atmosphere is 80% of the deforestation is happening on farms less than 5 hectares and it’s happening with about 1 billion indigenous people and small farmers who have no other method of transacting on the market. Their only income is pulling down the trees that surround them and selling it to the international hardwood suppliers but it’s not what they want to do, and I think this assumption in the western world is these guys don’t care. In fact, they care I think more deeply about their forest than anybody because they understand their forest better than anybody else and when they wanna preserve it I feel like it’s an energy that can be, you can tap into and so much of this is like I always go back to this concept of you can’t replace something with nothing. So, if you have intense pain in clinical medicine with software systems you can’t replace that with nothing, you have to replace it with something and it’s the same principle because when I look at the solution for technology and medicine I try and find doctors that are already doing it and when we look at the solution for carbon offsets we look for indigenous groups that are already doing it and we just give them more resources when they are out of something. 41:06 Dave: And so they now have a way to generate alternative income streams that do not involve cannibalizing the land. 41:15 Drea: Yeah, and it’s so cheap. I mean the amount, so for instance on one hectare of rainforest if you can grow a cow in three years and at the end of the three years the cow brings you $12, but I can pay about $12 a day for taking that same hectare and replanting it to conserve jungle, and the trick is because as a technologist and as somebody who’s adopting, you know, I can write NIH grant proposals unfortunately with my eyes closed at this point, so like it’s not that hard for me to sit down and like figure out all the fancy technology or the paperwork that’s necessary for them to get what they need, so that’s kind of what we are doing on our end it is just translating. 41:53 Dave: Are there ways that people can support that project that you would wanna put out there? 41:57 Drea: Oh yes please, if you wanna support the project I would be delighted you can, so we have, we are BCorp, we have a non-profit and a for-profit and if people want to donate they can donate. The donations always go to expanding farmer capacity like getting them a bank account, getting them literacy training, silviculture training, so like ways that they can participate in the market and then the for-profit is you can buy carbon offsets at any point in our pipeline. If you want to resell them when they are you know fully certified or if you wanna wait and buy a certified offset all of that’s possible. 42:28 Dave: So where would people go you know in either case? 42:31 Drea: Savimbo.com so, our project is called the savimbo project that’s actually out of Kenya and it means trust so it’s the savimbo project and savimbo.com. 42:42 Dave: Cool, well we’ll link to it for sure, Heads Up’s officially on board to support financially, I love it and everyone who is listening if you wanna go and support its S as in sierra, A – apple, V – Victor, I – Indigo, M – Mary, B – Bravo, O, savimbo project. Any other things from the indigenal health world, you’ve had such an opportunity to spend so much time in these indigenous communities and with all of your technological expertise and your medical expertise like the lens you have coming into these cultures and the way you think about how they approach health and spirituality and medicine like it’s kind of an open ended questions but like are there some big takeaways you’ve learned from working in these environments that you can share? I know it’s kind of open ended but these indigenous cultures are fascinating and we can learn so much from them and such a small percentage of people ever get to experience them so like, what are some of the biggest takeaways for you personally from working with all of these incredible people? 43:46 Drea: Well, the first thing I would say is that while I am a good translator I am not indigenous myself and so the best people to speak about indigenous health is the indigenous people themselves. I do believe that people should do their best to find ways to interact with indigenous healers and learn from them and respect their ways. Whether that’s, you know, through a book that they have written or through community involvement that’s fine. One of my takeaways from indigenous health in general has been, one thing I didn’t realize about, so I work in Colombia right now, they were smelting platinum at the same time Europeans were so they were not a technologically backwards society by any means, they never have been. When the Spaniards showed up, you know it wasn’t super healthy for the local population and a lot of that knowledge went into the jungle and while Europeans have different natural resources, what they have in the Amazon is they have the most incredible array of biodiversity on the planet and so a lot of their technology which is by no means inept is biological technology. It’s knowledge of biota, of plants, of animals, of trees. I went out last week with an indigenous farmer and he showed me 30 different trees on his land, 30 different species of trees that the fruit, he knew all the names, he knew which animals ate them, he knew all this and it wasn’t really even like unusual knowledge for him. I grew up in central Idaho and we have several species of trees but we don’t have anything like that, just the variety. So, the technical knowledge in these societies is precious and it’s not shared often and one of the reasons is that is has them in safe for indigenous communities to share their knowledge because when it’s commercialized or taken advantage of they aren’t benefitting. 45:33 Dave: I’ve read about that where there is actual companies that will go down there specifically to look for things that are in their indigenous knowledge that could be then turned into or patented or not patented but can be commercialized and nothing goes back to the community itself. 45:50 Drea: Yeah, so ethnobotany is a branch of medicine that looks at how to commercialize plant knowledge in a way that benefits the initial community and if anybody wants to get a hold of me I will send you like some amazing like tree dust is like how to conduct this kind of collaboration. But it comes down to land rights primarily so if indigenous communities have land rights, if they have existing organizations like financial structures … and then finding ways to enable collective ownership of benefits. So, I grew up in central Idaho and tamoxifen originally came from yew trees in central Idaho and I remember living in central Idaho when they were cutting down all the yew trees and skinning the bark to sell for tamoxifen, eventually they synthesized it and it still remains one of our best cancer drugs and so I don’t know if the end result was bad but I think that the solution could have been much more integrative and that’s what I’m interested in because I think our biggest breakthroughs in science, in western science and western medical science are not going to be out of a lab with synthesized compounds. I think it’s going to be finding ways to access the biota that we already have so for us to do that we have to preserve what we’ve got and then respect the people that have this knowledge. 47:04 Dave: I love it. Well, we are coming up on the top of the hour here Drea, we have covered a lot of ground from like the limitations of EHR systems to all kinds of topics around yoga and spirituality and medicine and what we can learn from indigenous health. I think these are all incredible topics and even just starting to think this way can help to change peoples health when they start to think more holistically and think more about connecting with different parts of different cultures, different lifestyles, different mindsets around what health even means, the definition of that, we have our understanding but we’ve kind of touched on a lot of different exciting areas. In closing I wanna say a couple of things. 1, I would like to take your bikram class so when your teaching somewhere please let me know. That’s actually how I first started practicing yoga, it’s still my jam I might go today here in a few hours, we’ll see. So, that’s option number 1, if you ever wanna take a kundalini class with me I can send you information where I teach so that could be some fun follow up items and we’ll see what comes out of there. We touched on your work on the savimbo project and then just any other things you want to put our there on the airwaves for our people listening. It’s a bunch of health data nerds but we are all like minded so anything that we didn’t cover that you wanna put out there as we close out here. 48:26 Drea: Well, I just wanna give you some credit for what you’re doing because I am a massive advocate for primary data. So much of our health tech is looking at EHR records and I think that most of that data is fictionalized, it’s not really valuable when you look at scientific research and there is so much better primary data out there so I strongly agree with the use of wearables with the use of lifestyle sensors that can be integrated into clinical practice and then the more pristine the data like video footage or just the data streams just need to be better. If we applied all of the infrastructure that we are using on electronic health records towards primary data which is so available now, I think we would see really amazing things coming out for medicine. 49:08 Dave: Well I appreciate that you know 1 of my favorite examples are just these bloody continuous glucose monitors it’s like the data is incredible, it comes in every 5 minutes, I can immediately notice that someone is starting to go outside of range and do a preventative intervention in seconds that can be life changing and even just people who are trying to lose some weight the data is incredible and you can get it in real time and its amazing so thank you for acknowledging that. We’re incredibly excited about sensor technology because the data is getting better and better, the sensors are getting cheaper and cheaper, they are able to passively measure more and more things which means there is not even the friction point of asking people to take a measurement anymore it’s just happening and so, there is like incredible opportunities for us to do more with that. That’s why we try to get our hands on every sensor, plug it in and then find ways put practitioners on the other end, or technology that can start identifying anomalies automatically that’s an even bigger upside, or starting to look for signals in that data, they could be complex signals from multiple devices but that’s our jam so thank you for acknowledging that, appreciate that. I’d love to show it to you sometime. 50:18 Drea: I will definitely check it out. I wanna put a plug in for one of my friends, he makes a sensor that you can wear like a wristband that can distinguish between anxiety and happiness and I’ve just been really happy, I mean you see these kind of advances you think oh my god what can I do with that, like I can do so many things. 50:33 Dave: I wanna see the happiness light up all the time that’s like motivation for me. You get a little bit of bio feedback and you feel great. 50:40 Drea: Yeah, if you can measure it you can work with it and like you know when we, also when we look at a health record and we are tracking a diagnosis like a diagnostic term we don’t allow for that paradigm shift, you know the term ulcer and you know has now been replaced with the term H.pylori and the underlying data is about the same, it’s like pain in this one area. So, when we look at primary data we can adjust our paradigms, our disease paradigms. 51:05 Dave: I love it. Well thank you for taking our outreach. I know we hit you up cold on LinkedIn and I had no idea we were going to get into so many exciting and awesome topics so this was just completely unexpected and wonderful in every possible sense. 51:20 Drea: It’s serendipity for sure, thank you so much for having me. 51:23 Dave: Thanks. This podcast is brought to you by Heads Up, a web and mobile app designed to help both individuals and health practitioners centrally track the vital health data that matters. Instantly synchronize your (or your clients') medical records, connect favorite health devices and apps, and use the data to optimize your health (and that of your clients). Click on the button below to start your free 30-day trial. (Opens in new tab) Get My Free Trial! Sign Up For A Free Heads Up Starter Account. The post Episode 63 – Drea Burbank MD: Why EHR systems suck, Kundalini yoga, sustainable growth and other musings appeared first on HeadsUp Health.

Sunday 8-7-22 Episode #25The Cedar Point Podcast On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/293404496252369/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 8-14-22 Episode #26The Cedar Point Podcast On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/293404496252369/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 7-31-22 Episode #24The Cedar Point Podcast On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/293404496252369/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Searchlight - Journey ft. [ K S R ]Kutiman - Fresh HazwKokoroko - Age of AscentLil Silva - Leave It (feat. Charlotte Day Wilson)Butcher Brown - UnbelievableDomi & JD Beck - Not Tight (feat. Thundercat)Greg Foat - The InvestigationKaidi Tatham - Funky FoolCorey Hart - Sunglasses At Night (Jean Jacket Mix)Deborah Jordan & K15 - Running (Simon S Re-Edit)The Pro-Teens - DoomsdayMain Source - Live at the BarbequeKing Most - Wind ParadeDe La V Gun Starr - Bruk Da DawnBlack Moon - Who Got The Props (EXCEL Sample Edit) The Jazzual Suspects - The LickThe 45 King - PineBonobo - Day by Day (feat. Kadhja Bonet)Alex Isley & Jack Dine - Love AgainHelsinki Headnod Convention - Roslingian Aspect (Applejac's Unhooked Generation Remix)Ron Trest - Melt into you feat. Alex Malheiros Black Star - So be itInkswel & The Snaglepuss - Mystical Magic feat. Lee Scratch Perry & Elf TranzporterThe Frightnrs - You, StillThe Pro-Teens - DoomsdaySven Wunder - Sun-Kissed (Original)The Bamboos - Nothing I Wanna Know About Mave & Dave - You are deliciousKatalyst, Adrian Younge and Ali Shaheed Muhammad - Summer SolsticeSly5thAve & Roberto Verástegui - PoincianaNatalie Duncan - Hearts In A Cage (4hero Remix) [m]ERIC HILTON - Earth ShipMica Paris - I Should've Known BetterJ.Rocc - All I Wanna Do (Remix) (ft. Steve Arrington)B. Bravo - Midnight RiderPlantlife - Rollerskate Jam (SE) (MM Edit)STR4TA - Night FlightMELONYX - UjjayiBrian Jackson - Little Orphan Boy (Two Soul Fusion Downtempo Remix)Tortured Soul - Your Body Doesn't Lie (Fka Mash Re Glitch Radio Edit)Kiko Navarro feat. Nader Behravan - Sounds Of My BreathAdmin - Step Into LightThe Sunburst Band feat. Angela Johnson - Face the Love

Sunday 7-25-22 Episode #23The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>New poster shirts...CP continue to take my money!>>>Fence watch 2022 has gone vertical and more beach themed posters have been added to the wall>>>Pass holders are receiving e mail for CP perks >>>Major brawls at theme parks have caused some to implement chaperon policy...could that be coming to CP? And>>>Ride of the week And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/363549722596501/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Isaac Birituro & The Rail Abandon - Fún Tony feat. Dele SosimiDJ Bemi - ArriwoJKriv, Phenomenal Handclap Band, Nic Hanson - Try AgainAnushka - Bad Weather (STR4TA Remix)S-Tone Inc. Body & Soul Remix)Peter Matson - Call and Answer (feat. Ibibio Sound Machine) [Faze Action Remix]B. Bravo - 10/10 (feat. Sally Green)BRETTINA VS INCOGNITO - Simple Pleasures Ski Dub Remix)Herbie Hancock - Ready or Not (MM Edit)Helsinki Headnod Convention - Beats Not Beatdowns (Particle Ray's Music Not War Chant Mix)JKriv Ft. Toribio - Shoulda Been Me (Alton Miller Remix)Louie Vega - I Hear Music In The Streets feat. Unlimited TouchNicola Conte & Gianluca Petrella - New World Shuffle (DJ Spinna Galactic Soul Remix)Agent K - Feed The CatBishop Willian Murphy - It's Working (Applejac's Unhooded Generation Re-Touch)Brian Jackson - All Talk (Opolopo Extended Remix)DJ MITSU THE BEATS - Right Here feat.DweleDwele - Money Don't Mean a Thing (Atjazz Remix)Renegades Of Jazz - Just Stirred feat. Laura Vane & DieslerEast Coast Love Affair - ConfrontationsOn - Southern freeezMind Street ft Andrea Love - Celebrate (Souldynamic Remix)Anthony Nicholson feat. Miles Bonny - Nucleus Scene 1 (Yoruba Soul Mix)Ezra Collective - Victory DancePhillip Malela - Tiba KamoMave & Dave - You are deliciousCaptain Planet - Mirage (feat. Taj Bethel)Katalyst, Adrian Younge and Ali Shaheed Muhammad - DaybreakThe Sunburst Band - Let's Do It in StyleAnomalie - Come Running to MeDJ Epik, Disco-E & Sally Green - CaptivateRED ASTAIRE - Saturday LoveSuzanne Sheer - GodlyFlying Lotus - You Don't Know (ft. Devin Tracy)Satya - Oakland (Clean)Inkswel & Colonel Red - Make Me CrazyMoor Mother - Woody Shaw feat. Melanie Charles

Sunday 7-17-22 Episode #22The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Flooding and Power outages hit the park!>>>Build A Bear has some new merch >>>Is the VIP lounge worth it?>>>New fencing around Breakers Express...what does it mean?And>>>New Food at the parkAnd more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/1220394038737035/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 7-13-22 Episode #21The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Owning a boat and having a slip at CP>>>Famous Daves on Fire >>>The best restaurant...not at the park...but on the property >>>Is the Rugaroo and Corkscrew underrated? And>>>Why they don't have CELLPHONE POUCHES on every coaster?And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/775717173601923/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 7-3-22 Episode #20The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>What rides might CP get from the other soon to be closed Cedar Fair theme park?>>>Camping Tip; how to save over half!>>>We review the new Peanuts Store on the midway and the new shows!>>>Has Hugo's food gone down hill?And>>>Fence Watch 2022 UPDATEAnd more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/718073612784898/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 6-26-22 Episode #19The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>We review the new show at CP>>>Is there a new coaster coming?>>>Some special CP Insiders join Us >>>No more CP PoliceAnd>>>One of CP sister parks has a coaster issue And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/293404496252369/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 6-17-22 Episode #18The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>What is the main draw at the park>>>Is it time to build another coaster?>>>Will $5.00 gas hurt attendance?>>>What's your favorite live show?And>>>A special Ride Audio Surprise! And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/394979322649982/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 6-13-22 Episode #17The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Fence Watch 2023...what is CP Building next?>>>Coastermania was a disaster! >>>Pic taking allowed on some rides >>>Does CP have a labor issue?And>>>How is Frontier nights going?And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/591647702378700/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

When we find any kind of success in our business, we tend to stick to what we know to keep ourselves in the black. But sometimes to reach those levels of success we started out looking for, it takes a whole change of perspective. My guest this week is Dave Zajdzinski, and he's all about sharing his superpower of scaling our business to reach those superhuman numbers we all hear about. One part of that perspective shift is ridding yourself of that limiting belief that you as the rainmaker need to do everything yourself, or that your clients expect and demand to do business with only you. Having a team is about building truest, not only with your associates but with your clients as well. Dave and I have a great conversation about what scaling looks like, how we apply it to our teams, and what it's done for our business and our work/life balance. Listen in! About Dave Z:   Dave Zajdzinski brings 13 years of real estate experience to home buyers and sellers throughout Arizona. He has helped hundreds of sellers and buyers meet their real estate goals and is consistently ranked one of the top realtors in the Valley. As a Certified Distressed Property Expert, Dave specializes in short sale transactions as well as traditional home sales, from raw land to multi-million dollar properties.   Quotes and Takeaways:   “What I want to do is deliver is an amazing experience for our people. I've realized that I can do that through other people. But instead of making it so that somebody else handles all of it, you still retain control of it when you are using a showing partner. You're delivering a high-quality experience for that client, and that's what they really want. It's really all about what the consumer wants.” – Dave   Using this system, I tell people that this will inspire you to go prospect. Once the process becomes so much more enjoyable, it'll inspire you to get more clients.” – Dave   “It's just a mindset shift. When you find out that this is an option then how do you execute it? When do you execute it? How do you build that right model? I'm a big believer in the process, so I'll only build with somebody who wants me to help them build a team, because there's only one way I'm going to do it.” - Dave     You can reach out to Dave though his team's Facebook page at: https://www.facebook.com/ZTEAMAZ/

Sunday 5-27-22 Episode #16The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Is there a new coaster being built?>>>Holiday weekend. Will it be too busy to visit? >>>Does the park need a traditional log flume ride? >>>Cash free park. Good concept, but is it worth all the issues? And>>>Michael reviews the new resturant And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/1358927191183878/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 5-13-22 Episode #15The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>We review opening weekend >>>We also review the new Farmhouse restaurant >>>Is Steel Vegencance open?>>>What's the most under appreciated ride in CP?And>>>Castaway Bay Preview And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/556414295832707/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 5-6-22 Episode #14The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today: >>We were live on a rainy Ohio State Day! >>Congrats to Cedar Couple...#2 on Tik Tok last week! >>And Cedar Couple got married last week! >>CP Announced wild frontier nights And >>We go over our CP Tips and Tricks!And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/684332146122818/ Orlisten wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Friday 4-29-22 Episode #13The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Bulldozer watch 2022>>>Pics going around on social media of cars from top thrill dragster being removed...what does it mean?>>>Season pass holders lawsuit>>>Donny P wants to be burried at CP when he dies!And>>>Have you ever gotten stuck on a ride?And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/405817037747135/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Friday 4-24-22 Episode #12The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Guest: Cedar Couple Brady and Caitlin of Tik Tok Fame. They win all the games!!!>>>CP Fence Watch 2022 is undereway. There's a fence around where Oceana Stadium was...what's that about?>>>CIP Lounges for Season Pass Holders...worth it?>>>New Options for overnight stays at CPAnd>>>Orlando amusement park FREE FALL accident report released And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/385919900064535/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Check our Dave's book, Lesson Planning for Language Teachers, at https://amzn.to/31HJtpkWhat happens if the important decisions about planning get left to coursebook writers rather than teachers? How much of the coursebook should schools tell teachers to use? And what can you do if your school doesn't let you deviate from the prescribed materials? Dave Weller, author of “Lesson Planning for Language Teachers” and friend of the podcast discuss.Ross Thorburn: Welcome back, Dave.Dave Weller: Hurrah! Nice to be back.Ross: Thanks. Dave and I were having a conversation a couple of nights ago, and we got talking about teachers uses of materials, right?Dave: Yes, perhaps in the over‑reliance of materials in the classroom.Ross: It reminded me of this quote from Ian McGrath, who says, "It's been argued that if teaching decisions are largely based on the textbook and the teacher's book, this has the effect of deskilling the teacher. If the person doing the teaching cedes to the textbook rights have responsibility for planning, he or she gradually loses the capacity to exercise the planning functions."He says, "The teacher's role is trivialized and marginalized to that of a mere technician." [laughs]Dave: It seems over my many year's teaching and training, one observation is that when I see teachers who have been encouraged to use, only use and teach from the materials they have. They seem to develop habitual actions in the classroom that they do without thinking without reflection. There is definitely a parallel there between the quotation from the graph that you read.The teachers executing their plan without really understanding or taking into account some of the learners. [laughs]Ross: At the same, it's quite obvious from a management point of view, why is a school you'd want to provide as much support as possible for your teachers? Both in terms of maybe getting teachers to teach as many hours as possible. You could minimize the planning. You want to ensure some minimal level of quality.Dave: Exactly. It comes from a good place to provide more materials, and more support is a wonderful thing for the schools to want to do. Especially from the terms of the quality of the class that the students have. At least if you know the teachers are using materials and following a strict pattern, then at least the students will reach some minimum level.It seems to be that there's a limit to downsides of perhaps hiring newer or less skilled teachers. It also can limit the upside, I believe, of letting those teachers then develop over time, because they're not allowed to.Ross: Absolutely. Over the next few minutes, how about we talk about how to find that balance between giving enough support, and then just limiting teachers to technicians?Dave: Sounds good.Ross: Great. From what you were describing earlier, obviously every teacher starts off as a new teacher, and every teacher, therefore, needs a lot of...Dave: I was born ready, Ross.[laughter]Dave: Not everyone's Dave Weller, though, are they?Ross: Obviously, there's an advantage to new teachers getting a lot of support, isn't there?Dave: Absolutely, yes. We often forget how intense an experience it is for teachers who travel halfway across the world. They're dealing with culture shock, new environments, new colleagues, and they're thrown into the classroom, the day after they arrive, when they still [laughs] have jet lag.In those situations, there's a lot to be said for the school providing a lot of support for those teachers until they can find their feet.Ross: I guess typically, what might that look like to describe so we're all on the same page here, something that's becoming more and more common in my experiences is giving the teachers not even like a recipe book, but like a PowerPoint or something to follow that your job as a teacher is to flick through this.You don't even necessarily even have to read the instructions because they're already on the PowerPoint for you. You might have suggested timings for just about everything, really almost like idiot‑proofing, teaching.At the extreme end, I've had managers asking me, "Can you write a script for the teachers?" The teachers, all they have to do in the class is read out the script. It's impossible for anyone to teach a bad class.Dave: That's interesting. Remember, that's with technology. Back in the day, I remember, when I first started, you were given the course book, and that was it. You had to pick things from there. You were given a certain guideline. Maybe each unit takes three lessons. There were six pages, so you do the math.[laughter]Dave: You went from there. You had a lot of autonomy over what to choose, how to sequence a lesson, you can move things around. You did have to rely a lot on your more experienced colleagues, which perhaps taught that course. Before, to give you ideas, it encouraged a definite interaction and collaboration, the staff from the people sharing ideas.Then I remembered a few years later, when maybe an update happened, course books are suddenly accompanied by teachers notes. First, people, the experienced teachers didn't use them at all. I just flicked through and pfft.[laughter]Dave: You turned your nose up at the book. We found that newer teachers would arrive and be very, very interested in pulling it out and teaching those lessons, as is until they became used to it. Then they found that they began with collaboration with input from their more experienced colleagues.They had more interesting ideas to try newer ideas, and they saw the benefit and the effectiveness of those in class. It naturally moved away from the teacher's notes. It's like training wheels on a bike, I guess.Ross: Obviously, the issue here is if the training wheels remain forever, then...Dave: Or mandated.Read the rest of the transcript here

Friday 4-15-22 Episode #11The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>CP was on Jeopardy!>>>Coastermania is coming!>>>How you can get free CP Tix>>>Frontier FestivalAnd>>>Secrets only employees know And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/675994846960412/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Sunday 4-8-22 Episode #10The Cedar Point Podcast What We Talking About Today:>>>Opening Day is less than a month away!>>>CP Quietly adds a $99 pass>>>Sandusky is getting a roundabout...how will that affect CP traffic >>>Park Pet PeevesAnd>>>Dave's coaster of the week And more!!!On the show:Andrew Z, Donny P, Molly, Nicole, Michael, Dylan and Dave You can watch the VLOGCAST here:https://www.facebook.com/andrewzonline419/videos/293404496252369/ ~Or~listen wherever you get your podcasts ***APPLE PODCASTS:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cedar-point-podcast/id1608893281 ***GOOGLE/GOOGLE PODhttps://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNTQxMTA3My9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVkCASTS: ***SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4jugneKWYc31aE3acPQZCu?si=hF8oamWBTpuQIKzrWsz86Q ***I HEART RADIO: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/53-cedar-point-podcast-92434163?cmp=ios_share&sc=ios_social_share&pr=false&autoplay=true ***AMAZON MUSIC:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/ba1a395f-c411-4004-85ce-3124fef6ba57/cedar-point-podcast?ref=dm_sh_i5WRc3pSncsCeGQatcC1HtLjZ Help us out by: SubscribeDownload (not just listen!) Rate (5 stars if you like it!) Review - Spread the word!

Mix #1Mamas Gun / Good love / CandelionJosephine Jones / Candy man / BrockIvory / Warm love (DJ Duckcomb edit) / TuskJennifer Yen / Together again / EMI Mix #2Mave & Dave / You are delicious / KalindaEva Pilarova / Leto leto / Supraphon La VO soutirée : diabolique reprise du Purple Haze de Jimi Hendrix en version psico cumbiaMeridian Brothers / Niebla morada / Soundway Mix #3Kauan Marco / Balança, Zé Carlos / Gop TunShen & Les Shendys / Je ne suis que musique / Disques DéesseRafael Cancian / Besos libres / Razor-N-TapeMirdza Zivere / Zozefino (Guest edit) / Cuts Mix #4Gianni E Donatella / Guarda l'amore / Disco SegretaLjupka Dimitrovska / Sta je tu je / JugotonLes Dynamites / Pop oud #2 / BatovGülden Karaböçek / Mehmet Emmi / Türküola La Bougie Wonderland : un joyeux anniv' à Cécile Duflot, Francesca Testasecca (Miss Italie 2010) et Wangari Maathai (Prix Nobel de la Paix en 2004)The Lumineers / Birthday / Dualtone Mix #5Matt Berry / Beatmaker / Acid JazzUrsula Ricks / Sweet tenderness / Jai AlaiL'Orchestre Du Montplaisant / Weeds / Catapulte

The trade association is made up of approximately 300 wood product manufacturers. From start to finish, BC Wood deals with manufacturing CLT (cross-laminated timber) and mass timber products all the way to high-end finish products.With 18 years of experience under his belt, Dave has seen a number of changes in the forest industry, from the perspective of both manufacturers and consumers.For one, the “wood pile” is getting smaller for a number of reasons, including considerations around sustainability, logging, and the management of old growth (trees that are at least 200 years old).Trends come and go, but as long as a manufacturer focuses on doubling down on the key strengths of wood (such as its ability to be manipulated in a wide variety of forms) while seeking to find innovative ways to buffer its weaknesses (such as its level of softness), that manufacturer will go far.Finally, Dave speaks on the future of the wood industry. He says that there is a universal push to look beyond profit and implement initiatives such as finding solutions for sustainability and partnering with the First Nations.Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:[03:01] About BC Wood[08:11] Soft woods versus hard woods[10:35] Why the wood pile keeps getting smaller and smaller[21:12] Dealing with ultra-high-end residential clients with termite problems[28:26] Changes in trends around wood applications among clients over 18 years[34:23] Competitive pressures faced by BC Wood today[36:16] Dave's wanderlust[38:22] BC Wood's overseas locations[42:20] What Dave has learned from his travels[48:59] The future of the wood industry[52:04] The future of the tradesConnect with Dave Farley:Website - https://bcwood.com/Connect with Build Magazine:Website - https://www.buildmagazine.com/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/buildmags/?hl=enFacebook - https://www.facebook.com/BuildMags/Key Quotes by Dave:You're seeing a systematic change in the forest industry as we move forward into the next few decades. The wood pile, as we call it, keeps getting smaller, and a lot of that has to do with issues around sustainability, logging, and old growth (the 200-year range depending on the species).Fire treatment is going to become a big issue. Anything that can help in terms of treatment of product is going to have really good market opportunity. Finally, I think there is going to be really good market opportunity on thermally-modified wood.If you can take the key strengths and the key elements of wood, including the ability to manipulate it in a variety of forms, and you combine that with the weaknesses of wood such as its softness, and create innovative products, we create value in the marketplace.

The theme this week on the Retirement Quick Tips Podcast is: Answering Dave Ramsey's Most Popular Questions Today, I'm talking about the 5 things that will make you wealthy.  Dave Ramsey asserts that if you do these 5 things, you will win with money 100% of the time. What are these 5 things he's so confident about?: Have a written plan…a budget (no one accidentally wins - at anything…you need a game plan or you're gonna lose) You gotta get outta debt. Dave: “When you don't have any payments you know what you got? Money!” Don't spend everything you make. This is one of those good rant segments, because Dave really puts that knife in the wound and says if you're not happy with your job or your income, then don't be stagnant. Move on and move up. It's a free country and you can work elsewhere if you need more income to pay your bills Save money! Dave: ”You're gonna be broke until you save and invest money” The problem with your investments is not your fees or your returns, is that you don't have money. “100% of people that build wealth save money…on purpose, a lot!”  And the last thing to help you win with money is to be generous…but it takes doing the first 4 right to get to the point where you can be generous in a meaningful way. I don't really have much to add here, other than the higher your income is and the more conscientious you are about your spending, saving, and getting out of debt, the less you need a budget. But you still need a plan for you money. What are you working toward. What are you saving this money for? Having a purpose and making a long-term plan will help you stay on track and not lose sight of what matters most to you.  That's it for today. Thanks for listening! My name is Ashley Micciche and this is the Retirement Quick Tips podcast.  --------- >>> Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2DI2LSP >>> Subscribe on Amazon Alexa: https://amzn.to/2xRKrCs >>> Visit the podcast page: https://truenorthra.com/podcast/  ---------- Tags: retirement, investing, money, finance, financial planning, retirement planning, saving money, personal finance

Hello! You've just stumbled into a conversation that's already in progress.  This is Ask Me Everything and this week we asked:   If you HAD to be one of the classic movie monsters, which one would it be and why? Listener Question from Dave: You crash off the winter river bridge and die, you now haunt your apartment.  A new young couple moves in that LOVE ghosts-- but you hate them.  Your caseworker says you have to get rid of them on your own.  How do you scare them away? What villain in a kids show/movie was surprisingly dark? Someone tells you that there is one cryptid that absolutely exists.  It's now indisputable.  Which one would you assume it was? Court Appointed Question: You are turned into a vampire.  At one point would your personality cease to evolve? Follow us on Instagram @askmeeverythingpodcast or give us a call at 818-252-9641 to play along and answer the questions yourselves!   

Dave is involved in a number of ventures outside of construction, including serving as CEO of Main Street Ingredients (MSI), a manufacturer of ingredients for use in ice cream, frozen desserts, cheese, bakery items, nutritional beverages, and confections.He has also worked for Kraft Foods and is partnered with sports nutrition brands Soul & Science and Kill Cliff.Listen in as Dave and Brad go down memory lane to speak on the various personal and professional obstacles that they have had to overcome through the years, from economic setbacks during the Great Recession to Dave's battle with cancer.Dave also touches on his love for people and how this passion influences his style and decision-making framework as a serial entrepreneur.Brought to you by Pella.Topics Discussed:[02:42] When Dave began his professional career in Arizona[10:51] How to maintain positivity as an entrepreneur and leader[14:37] How Kraft's R&D develops ideas for products[18:00] Partnering with other big food brands such as Ben & Jerry's and Unilever[26:47] What inspired Dave to establish MSI[32:34] Moving to Arizona in the 2000s and meeting Brad[42:49] Brad's personal challenges in 2011 and finding success in business[54:38] Dave's work with Kill Cliff[01:00:57] Soul & Science's products[1:08:11] Looking forward despite battling with cancer[1:18:37] What Dave does for funConnect with Dave Clark:Website -Instagram -Facebook -Pinterest -Connect with Brad Leavitt: WebsiteInstagramFacebook HouzzPinterestYouTubeKey Quotes by Dave:You don't [build companies] by yourself; you do it with people. It's not only about finding opportunities but finding and putting the right staff in place to get the job done.You always look at what your company value is but you also look at what lies ahead of you. If you have a path to really get into bigger things, you first have to find a way to get to that next step.You have to be your own advocate, but you also have to listen and learn. You can't be a know-it-all.

Welcome to The Psychologists Podcast, where we talk about all things psychology through a very personal lens.Dave Englund, MAI, SRA, AI-GRS and his wife, Joanne Englund, CPA reflect on Dave's Benjamin Button-like journey back to college as a 65-year-old. What factors impact our biggest life decisions? Is it ever too late to finish unfinished business? And is doing extra credit genetic?Honorable Mentions:-“You don't know what you don't know”-Is it really true that ANYONE can (or should) go to college?-Matching law-Paper? ceilings -Shame and motivation-MAI designation in real estate appraisal (it's a big deal) https://www.appraisalinstitute.org › our-designations-“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”-Don't go to college till you're ready-How your reason for going to school impacts your approach in the classroom-1974 vs. 2021 college pressures-Curiosity pulls, pressure pushes Memorable Moments:“I was taking a history course when Confederate statues were finally being taken down; I was in government class during an impeachment trial” (Dave)“You have to answer the right question…not, Do you feel like going to college and studying for 4 years and taking tests? That's not the question. The question is, Where do you wanna be?” (Joanne)-Dave Englund lives in Austin with his wife Joanne. He is a commercial real estate appraiser with 35 years in the business, and currently works as a commercial review appraiser for Frost Bank. Joanne is a CPA and works as a Senior Auditor for Travis County. Their hobbies are hanging out with each other and spending all their money on DIY home and yard improvement projects.-Gill Strait PhD and Julia Strait PhD are both Licensed Psychologists (TX) and Licensed Specialists in School Psychology (LSSPs, TX). They are alumni of The University of South Carolina School Psychology Doctoral Program (Go Gamecocks).Gill is a teacher, researcher, and supervisor at a university graduate psychology training program.Julia is a testing psychologist at Stepping Stone Therapy in Houston, TX: https://steppingstonetherapy.org/strait/ Instagram: @drjuliatx https://www.instagram.com/drjuliatx/?hl=en

When Barbara Felix started her business, Felix the Cook, over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Finding her sweet spot with custom-made sugar cookies, Barbara has attracted big name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons. How can your business do the same? Listen as Barbara shares her best secrets for attracting and delighting clients. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Barbara: I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something. Dave: Meet Barbara Felix, owner of Felix the Cook. Like so many businesses owners, Barbara became her own boss to avoid a boring, cookie-cutter career. Starting a business of her own, Barbara has the freedom to spend her days as she likes — which in her case means delighting customers with custom-made sugar cookies. If you've ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business — or if you've already started and you're wondering how to take things to the next level, listen up. Today, Barbara shares her secrets for how a one-woman operation can use customer relationships to land big-name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons.More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Many small businesses start with a combination of passion and necessity. When Barbara started her business over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Listen as she describes her early attempts at finding the right fit and how an early mentor helped point her in the right direction. Barbara: Well, my dad was a cook. My dad always cooked at home. And I loved to play in the kitchen. I loved making things and my mother let me do whatever I want with butter, sugar and flour. So I have absolutely no fear of sweet stuff. And I grew up, got married, got divorced and decided I needed a career because I've been to high school, of course, but not much college. So there I was, a single mother with two children looking for something to do and I thought well, maybe I can take a cooking class and instead I decided to take the full program at the California Culinary Academy and do 16 months and come out as a chef. So I worked at a really fine restaurant for a couple years and then found it was just too difficult as a single mother to keep the hours of a kitchen, which were pretty brutal, and mind my kids. So I quit that and got into private chefing after a stint of making desserts for restaurants. There were a couple of small restaurants I worked for that didn't have the time or the space to do their own pastry. So I'd do that for them. Again, pastry was always my favorite. And with the kids, I would make cookies with them every holiday like Halloween. I can't get over it. That Halloween, I made black icing, my son was in heaven with black icing everywhere. So we'd do that and then one year one of my instructors was at the house for Christmas and she saw my cookies and she said, “Oh my God, Barbra, you have to sell these.” I said, “Really?” So because I trusted her, I pursued the cookies. I was private chefing at the time and I asked one of my clients what she thought. She suggested I get a year of cookies. So that was a great idea. So I designed 12 collections with 6 designs each to make up a dozen cookies for every month of the year, and got connected with a web designer, who started with that page, our cookies of the month. And from there it just grew. It was very word of mouth, very word of mouth. Dave: So, just talk us through kind of that inspiration for doing the cookies? Barbara: Oh! The inspiration was I can do this, and it's fun and people pay me! That's what it was. And that having someone whose opinion that I trusted told me they were wonderful. That's what I needed because I get in my own little bubble where I can't see outside. And if you go on cookies websites, it's amazing what people are doing. They're total artworks. And if you look at that, and then look at what I do and it's like, well I'd never measure up. The funny thing is, is that they're doing the same thing. Everybody is comparing, which is silly. But I wanted a way to make some money that wasn't as difficult, as private chefing can be. I wanted to do something that I was entirely comfortable with, which is pastry. And it's a fun job and it's a happy job. People are so happy when they can get on my schedule. They are happy to order their cookies they're anticipating, and they're happy when they get them. So I like happy uplifting things. That's why, I'm not curing cancer but I'm making people happy, nothing wrong with that. Dave: With cookie-making, Barbara found the sweet spot she was looking for. Now, she had to find something just as important — a loyal customer base.  Luckily, this wasn't Barbara's first business. Through her past endeavors, Barbara already had some ideas about her target market, what they wanted, and how best to reach them. Barbara: Now, I spent some time in Texas for 10 years and I had my own business there as well, making curtains and drapery and shades. And my first customer was a junior-league lady and I had learned very well. You tell a junior league lady, you're set because they all tell each other, they all call each other. So with that experience, with the cookies I thought, I got to donate to the junior league. And I did the same thing. I picked a couple different charities and I'd make a significant donation and people started calling. And that's how it started, with donations, because I had to get the word out. Dave: Did you set any goals for your business when you were first getting started? Barbara: Oh, I wish I could say yes! I wish I could say I followed my business plan to the T. I did not. My goal was to make some extra money. I'm a single mother with two kids, money was the ticket. So, with the help of friends, I thought it was important to get a website together and that was my first goal to get all those 12 months of designs made. Then to set up a photography booth or some way to get…I bought my first camera to do the photographs, my first little instant camera. And, to set up a business account, I set up a checkbook. The goals were very small and then to find charities where I could donate because I knew that's where my market was. See, I knew, from my experience of having my business in Texas, I knew what these ladies wanted. I knew what they were looking for and knew where they were. I knew my market. And I knew what they needed. And that's how I did it. Going for the upscale charity events and contacting people I knew in that area. Dave: What would you say makes your business different from others out there? Barbara: I would say the service. I mean, they love the taste of the cookies, there's that. They love the cookies, they love what I do. But I've had people tell me, “Oh, you're so flexible, and thank you” And it's personable, you know, people get excited when they can talk to the person who's actually making their product. It's not going through several layers. In fact, a few years ago, well in 2004, Gwyneth Paltrow put me on her Goop website for Christmas. And that's because I knew her driver. A friend of mine drove for her. I didn't even know he was driving for her but that was my connection. And I got a lot of orders and one person called to check on her order and it was so funny the way she spoke. It's like, “Can you go down on the factory floor and find the order?” and I said, “Ma'am I'm making your cookies.” And they're so excited. They're very excited to talk to the person. So I think that's it. There's no filter between me and the client. They call or they email or they talk to me. And that's the way I like it. And even as I grow, I don't know that I'll give away that part of the business. I think I'll still be the contact person. Dave: Barbara's success comes from giving her customers an experience they can't get anywhere else. By listening to her customers' advice, Barbara creates relationships that make other people feel invested in her success. It's no surprise that many of Barbara's best new customers have come directly from her existing customer base. Dave: Yeah. Is there, is there some place that you go for advice or guidance? Barbara: Oh gosh, yes! Gosh, yes! I guess I'm just a friendly person. But I know so many people who seem to be more successful than I am and their always eager to help me. I have one friend I met when I was doing cookies for a charity function and it was being held at Pixar. It was a very big deal and I got to see the Pixar office. I got to look at an Oscar, like two feet from my face, a real Oscar. That woman moved on to another company and another company and she's taken me with her every step of the way. So I've made cookies for her at every company and she's very into computers and marketing. And she helps me and she gives me ideas. Another friend of mine, again, it's a friend of a friend. He asked me if I could deliver cookies to his friend who manages a very big jewelry store downtown. And because of the timing, I thought, “Oh I'll just take him in myself.” And that was like a perfect thing to do. The fellow loved meeting me, he loved the cookies and he has sent me business and he has sent me a wonderful event planner that I work with constantly. And he's my buddy. He brings me to different events, he suggests things to do. He's got me working on a chocolate cookie now. He's determined to have a chocolate cookie place card with gold lettering. So I have ordered. I have been through the web top to bottom looking for a specific edible gold luster, which I've acquired. It's in the mail to me now. So they guide me, they tell me what you can do. Another friend of mine works at LinkedIn and he's helping me use that to meet other marketing people in different companies because that's where the cookie orders from companies come from. So, yes, I don't know, people like me and they talk to me and I talk to them and we chit chat. And yes, I have plenty of advisors. I've made cookies for Google Ventures and they're still customers. I did cookies for UPS. I did cookies for Tyler Florence a couple of times. And when he had his shop, my cookies were in his shop. Because one day, I walked in, and I happened to have my portfolio with me. And there was some sugar cookies for sale and I thought, “Oh my goodness! I can do better than that.” So I showed the sales girl. She got the marketing person to come down and we started a relationship and I had my cookies in there every holiday. Because I walked in and said, “Hey look at me.” Dave: Barbara's confidence in her product and dedication to her customer relationships have served her well in growing her business and reaching big-name clients. But that doesn't mean she's always as busy as she'd like. Dave: Was there ever a time that you felt like potentially the business wasn't gonna work? Barbara: Oh yeah! Oh gosh yes! Dave: Tell us about that. Barbara: Because I didn't have a budget for marketing. My budget was, “Can I pay my mortgage this month?” And some people would tell me, “Oh! You need to get better pictures. They don't do you justice.” And I didn't have the money to go up a notch. Packaging, when you start pricing packaging, you have to buy a lot for custom packaging. It's a huge investment for a small business. And there were times where I would get discouraged. And then the phone would ring and somebody would say so and so told me about you. And I would get all happy again. I really feed off my customer's happiness because it tells me I'm doing a good job. Dave: What have you found has been your most effective way to get or reaching customers? Barbara: Oh, really, Constant Contact because my email list consists of people who have already done business with me. They've already emailed me and bought purchased cookies so they're on my list. They're familiar with the product and the emails are just a reminder that I'm here, which is, as I said, for people that don't order cookies regularly. They need to be reminded, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something… Dave: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your approach with email, like what do you? What do you send out? Like what do you do, how often? Barbara: I want to do it once a month. I try to do it once a month and I like to put up pictures of cookies they haven't seen, something new. Like I believe I did an email about painted cookies now, there's a big demand now for watercolor. You use the food coloring as the paint. So I did that. Mostly it's seasonal, you know. It's like, “Oh this is August, I'll send out a picture of my watermelon cookies” or whatever. Trying to think of what they might be doing and what they might need them for. We're very seasonal. I don't ever have sales, so there's nothing like that to do. I made a decision very early on that I wasn't going to discount my work, at all. And I don't. I don't care if you're buying two dozen or two thousand. The price is the price and that's it. So, there's no sales to advertise. It's mostly a reminder. Get on the books now because September's full. So, think about me now. Mostly to remind people to, order ahead. That's what I use it for. The email marketing is entirely affordable, entirely affordable, $20 a month? I mean, come on. It's a bargain. It's a tremendous bargain. And what sold it for me is the online help because I'm of a certain age. I need to speak to someone. I don't want to just tap on the computer. And every time I call, I get someone who is willing to stay there and help me and I've never gone away unsatisfied from a phone call. And I need that because I'm not computer savvy. I am not going to invest time in learning how to run a computer because I run a cookie business. I'm not a computer person. Dave: Rather than focusing on finding new customers, Barbara stays in touch with her existing customers — the people she already has established relationships with. By reaching out and reminding her customers what she has to offer, she sparks new interest and gets the phone ringing again. Dave: What is it that you would say that really keeps you going and your business successful? Barbara: Pride in what I do, that I do it myself, that I don't have to answer to anyone except my customers. Like I've mentioned, this is not my first business. My first business was making curtains, draperies and shades and it was the similar thing. I worked alone, I made a beautiful product, everybody was happy at every stage. And I loved being my own boss. I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something, if I can't be refinishing furniture, or making a curtain or doing something creative. And the cookies give me all that. All my art, all my color, theory, everything I do is in there. And I love making people happy. I love making little kids smile when they get a cookie. I have pictures on my wall of the little kids holding my cookies, being happy. That's a nice thing. Dave: You'll notice Barbara's success is rooted in her own satisfaction, as well as her customers'. As she said earlier, she really feeds off her customers' happiness. While many small businesses are started by fiercely independent people — hungry to call the shots, make their own hours, and put their stamp on things — the successful ones never lose sight of the people they're trying to help. I'll leave you with Barbara's best advice for someone interested in starting their own business. Barbara: Oh, golly. Know your market. If you don't know where your market is and what they want, you have no chance. You need to know what people want. And once you figure that out, make what they need. It's the same classic advice, find a need and fill it. And because of my exposure to a certain crowd of people years ago, I knew what they were looking for. I knew what they liked to have and that's why I can still serve those people by making my product. You have to know your market, you can't just have a good idea that nobody wants to buy, if you're gonna do it for a living. I mean believe me, I love what I do, I love the art but make no mistake, and this is how I put gas in the car. I have to make money. Dave: We appreciate you listening and would love to hear what you think of the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher right now and leave us a review. Small Biz Stories is produced by myself and Miranda Paquet with editing by TwentyFourSound. You can contact us at podcast@constantcontact.com Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. The post Felix the Cook — Small Biz Stories, Episode 14 appeared first on Constant Contact.

When Barbara Felix started her business, Felix the Cook, over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Finding her sweet spot with custom-made sugar cookies, Barbara has attracted big name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons. How can your business do the same? Listen as Barbara shares her best secrets for attracting and delighting clients. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Barbara: I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something. Dave: Meet Barbara Felix, owner of Felix the Cook. Like so many businesses owners, Barbara became her own boss to avoid a boring, cookie-cutter career. Starting a business of her own, Barbara has the freedom to spend her days as she likes — which in her case means delighting customers with custom-made sugar cookies. If you've ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business — or if you've already started and you're wondering how to take things to the next level, listen up. Today, Barbara shares her secrets for how a one-woman operation can use customer relationships to land big-name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons.More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Many small businesses start with a combination of passion and necessity. When Barbara started her business over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Listen as she describes her early attempts at finding the right fit and how an early mentor helped point her in the right direction. Barbara: Well, my dad was a cook. My dad always cooked at home. And I loved to play in the kitchen. I loved making things and my mother let me do whatever I want with butter, sugar and flour. So I have absolutely no fear of sweet stuff. And I grew up, got married, got divorced and decided I needed a career because I've been to high school, of course, but not much college. So there I was, a single mother with two children looking for something to do and I thought well, maybe I can take a cooking class and instead I decided to take the full program at the California Culinary Academy and do 16 months and come out as a chef. So I worked at a really fine restaurant for a couple years and then found it was just too difficult as a single mother to keep the hours of a kitchen, which were pretty brutal, and mind my kids. So I quit that and got into private chefing after a stint of making desserts for restaurants. There were a couple of small restaurants I worked for that didn't have the time or the space to do their own pastry. So I'd do that for them. Again, pastry was always my favorite. And with the kids, I would make cookies with them every holiday like Halloween. I can't get over it. That Halloween, I made black icing, my son was in heaven with black icing everywhere. So we'd do that and then one year one of my instructors was at the house for Christmas and she saw my cookies and she said, “Oh my God, Barbra, you have to sell these.” I said, “Really?” So because I trusted her, I pursued the cookies. I was private chefing at the time and I asked one of my clients what she thought. She suggested I get a year of cookies. So that was a great idea. So I designed 12 collections with 6 designs each to make up a dozen cookies for every month of the year, and got connected with a web designer, who started with that page, our cookies of the month. And from there it just grew. It was very word of mouth, very word of mouth. Dave: So, just talk us through kind of that inspiration for doing the cookies? Barbara: Oh! The inspiration was I can do this, and it's fun and people pay me! That's what it was. And that having someone whose opinion that I trusted told me they were wonderful. That's what I needed because I get in my own little bubble where I can't see outside. And if you go on cookies websites, it's amazing what people are doing. They're total artworks. And if you look at that, and then look at what I do and it's like, well I'd never measure up. The funny thing is, is that they're doing the same thing. Everybody is comparing, which is silly. But I wanted a way to make some money that wasn't as difficult, as private chefing can be. I wanted to do something that I was entirely comfortable with, which is pastry. And it's a fun job and it's a happy job. People are so happy when they can get on my schedule. They are happy to order their cookies they're anticipating, and they're happy when they get them. So I like happy uplifting things. That's why, I'm not curing cancer but I'm making people happy, nothing wrong with that. Dave: With cookie-making, Barbara found the sweet spot she was looking for. Now, she had to find something just as important — a loyal customer base.  Luckily, this wasn't Barbara's first business. Through her past endeavors, Barbara already had some ideas about her target market, what they wanted, and how best to reach them. Barbara: Now, I spent some time in Texas for 10 years and I had my own business there as well, making curtains and drapery and shades. And my first customer was a junior-league lady and I had learned very well. You tell a junior league lady, you're set because they all tell each other, they all call each other. So with that experience, with the cookies I thought, I got to donate to the junior league. And I did the same thing. I picked a couple different charities and I'd make a significant donation and people started calling. And that's how it started, with donations, because I had to get the word out. Dave: Did you set any goals for your business when you were first getting started? Barbara: Oh, I wish I could say yes! I wish I could say I followed my business plan to the T. I did not. My goal was to make some extra money. I'm a single mother with two kids, money was the ticket. So, with the help of friends, I thought it was important to get a website together and that was my first goal to get all those 12 months of designs made. Then to set up a photography booth or some way to get…I bought my first camera to do the photographs, my first little instant camera. And, to set up a business account, I set up a checkbook. The goals were very small and then to find charities where I could donate because I knew that's where my market was. See, I knew, from my experience of having my business in Texas, I knew what these ladies wanted. I knew what they were looking for and knew where they were. I knew my market. And I knew what they needed. And that's how I did it. Going for the upscale charity events and contacting people I knew in that area. Dave: What would you say makes your business different from others out there? Barbara: I would say the service. I mean, they love the taste of the cookies, there's that. They love the cookies, they love what I do. But I've had people tell me, “Oh, you're so flexible, and thank you” And it's personable, you know, people get excited when they can talk to the person who's actually making their product. It's not going through several layers. In fact, a few years ago, well in 2004, Gwyneth Paltrow put me on her Goop website for Christmas. And that's because I knew her driver. A friend of mine drove for her. I didn't even know he was driving for her but that was my connection. And I got a lot of orders and one person called to check on her order and it was so funny the way she spoke. It's like, “Can you go down on the factory floor and find the order?” and I said, “Ma'am I'm making your cookies.” And they're so excited. They're very excited to talk to the person. So I think that's it. There's no filter between me and the client. They call or they email or they talk to me. And that's the way I like it. And even as I grow, I don't know that I'll give away that part of the business. I think I'll still be the contact person. Dave: Barbara's success comes from giving her customers an experience they can't get anywhere else. By listening to her customers' advice, Barbara creates relationships that make other people feel invested in her success. It's no surprise that many of Barbara's best new customers have come directly from her existing customer base. Dave: Yeah. Is there, is there some place that you go for advice or guidance? Barbara: Oh gosh, yes! Gosh, yes! I guess I'm just a friendly person. But I know so many people who seem to be more successful than I am and their always eager to help me. I have one friend I met when I was doing cookies for a charity function and it was being held at Pixar. It was a very big deal and I got to see the Pixar office. I got to look at an Oscar, like two feet from my face, a real Oscar. That woman moved on to another company and another company and she's taken me with her every step of the way. So I've made cookies for her at every company and she's very into computers and marketing. And she helps me and she gives me ideas. Another friend of mine, again, it's a friend of a friend. He asked me if I could deliver cookies to his friend who manages a very big jewelry store downtown. And because of the timing, I thought, “Oh I'll just take him in myself.” And that was like a perfect thing to do. The fellow loved meeting me, he loved the cookies and he has sent me business and he has sent me a wonderful event planner that I work with constantly. And he's my buddy. He brings me to different events, he suggests things to do. He's got me working on a chocolate cookie now. He's determined to have a chocolate cookie place card with gold lettering. So I have ordered. I have been through the web top to bottom looking for a specific edible gold luster, which I've acquired. It's in the mail to me now. So they guide me, they tell me what you can do. Another friend of mine works at LinkedIn and he's helping me use that to meet other marketing people in different companies because that's where the cookie orders from companies come from. So, yes, I don't know, people like me and they talk to me and I talk to them and we chit chat. And yes, I have plenty of advisors. I've made cookies for Google Ventures and they're still customers. I did cookies for UPS. I did cookies for Tyler Florence a couple of times. And when he had his shop, my cookies were in his shop. Because one day, I walked in, and I happened to have my portfolio with me. And there was some sugar cookies for sale and I thought, “Oh my goodness! I can do better than that.” So I showed the sales girl. She got the marketing person to come down and we started a relationship and I had my cookies in there every holiday. Because I walked in and said, “Hey look at me.” Dave: Barbara's confidence in her product and dedication to her customer relationships have served her well in growing her business and reaching big-name clients. But that doesn't mean she's always as busy as she'd like. Dave: Was there ever a time that you felt like potentially the business wasn't gonna work? Barbara: Oh yeah! Oh gosh yes! Dave: Tell us about that. Barbara: Because I didn't have a budget for marketing. My budget was, “Can I pay my mortgage this month?” And some people would tell me, “Oh! You need to get better pictures. They don't do you justice.” And I didn't have the money to go up a notch. Packaging, when you start pricing packaging, you have to buy a lot for custom packaging. It's a huge investment for a small business. And there were times where I would get discouraged. And then the phone would ring and somebody would say so and so told me about you. And I would get all happy again. I really feed off my customer's happiness because it tells me I'm doing a good job. Dave: What have you found has been your most effective way to get or reaching customers? Barbara: Oh, really, Constant Contact because my email list consists of people who have already done business with me. They've already emailed me and bought purchased cookies so they're on my list. They're familiar with the product and the emails are just a reminder that I'm here, which is, as I said, for people that don't order cookies regularly. They need to be reminded, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something… Dave: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your approach with email, like what do you? What do you send out? Like what do you do, how often? Barbara: I want to do it once a month. I try to do it once a month and I like to put up pictures of cookies they haven't seen, something new. Like I believe I did an email about painted cookies now, there's a big demand now for watercolor. You use the food coloring as the paint. So I did that. Mostly it's seasonal, you know. It's like, “Oh this is August, I'll send out a picture of my watermelon cookies” or whatever. Trying to think of what they might be doing and what they might need them for. We're very seasonal. I don't ever have sales, so there's nothing like that to do. I made a decision very early on that I wasn't going to discount my work, at all. And I don't. I don't care if you're buying two dozen or two thousand. The price is the price and that's it. So, there's no sales to advertise. It's mostly a reminder. Get on the books now because September's full. So, think about me now. Mostly to remind people to, order ahead. That's what I use it for. The email marketing is entirely affordable, entirely affordable, $20 a month? I mean, come on. It's a bargain. It's a tremendous bargain. And what sold it for me is the online help because I'm of a certain age. I need to speak to someone. I don't want to just tap on the computer. And every time I call, I get someone who is willing to stay there and help me and I've never gone away unsatisfied from a phone call. And I need that because I'm not computer savvy. I am not going to invest time in learning how to run a computer because I run a cookie business. I'm not a computer person. Dave: Rather than focusing on finding new customers, Barbara stays in touch with her existing customers — the people she already has established relationships with. By reaching out and reminding her customers what she has to offer, she sparks new interest and gets the phone ringing again. Dave: What is it that you would say that really keeps you going and your business successful? Barbara: Pride in what I do, that I do it myself, that I don't have to answer to anyone except my customers. Like I've mentioned, this is not my first business. My first business was making curtains, draperies and shades and it was the similar thing. I worked alone, I made a beautiful product, everybody was happy at every stage. And I loved being my own boss. I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something, if I can't be refinishing furniture, or making a curtain or doing something creative. And the cookies give me all that. All my art, all my color, theory, everything I do is in there. And I love making people happy. I love making little kids smile when they get a cookie. I have pictures on my wall of the little kids holding my cookies, being happy. That's a nice thing. Dave: You'll notice Barbara's success is rooted in her own satisfaction, as well as her customers'. As she said earlier, she really feeds off her customers' happiness. While many small businesses are started by fiercely independent people — hungry to call the shots, make their own hours, and put their stamp on things — the successful ones never lose sight of the people they're trying to help. I'll leave you with Barbara's best advice for someone interested in starting their own business. Barbara: Oh, golly. Know your market. If you don't know where your market is and what they want, you have no chance. You need to know what people want. And once you figure that out, make what they need. It's the same classic advice, find a need and fill it. And because of my exposure to a certain crowd of people years ago, I knew what they were looking for. I knew what they liked to have and that's why I can still serve those people by making my product. You have to know your market, you can't just have a good idea that nobody wants to buy, if you're gonna do it for a living. I mean believe me, I love what I do, I love the art but make no mistake, and this is how I put gas in the car. I have to make money. Dave: We appreciate you listening and would love to hear what you think of the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher right now and leave us a review. Small Biz Stories is produced by myself and Miranda Paquet with editing by TwentyFourSound. You can contact us at podcast@constantcontact.com Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. The post Felix the Cook — Small Biz Stories, Episode 14 appeared first on Constant Contact.

When Susie Coliver started ARCH Art & Drafting Supply at 24 years old, she never could have anticipated how her business would evolve over the next 38 years. From skyrocketing rent prices in San Francisco to the rise of digital drafting tools, Susie keeps her store going by facing trends head on and maintaining strong relationships with her customers and staff. Listen as she shares how to stay relevant in a changing market and how she’s built a dedicated customer base that keeps her business going. Find us on Stitcher Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Susie: For me, I think that we have all learned to be so efficient in the way we transact our days. We’re able to multitask so completely. We’re able to do so much from our desktop or our laptop or our telephone that you can actually go through days and days and days of never actually talking to anybody. From my inexperience, but long-term perspective, we all lose out in that equation. That being human, we need and want the connection. Dave: You just heard from Susie Coliver, an architectural designer and the owner of ARCH Drafting Supply. Since starting her business over 38 years ago, Susie has faced challenges within an evolving San Francisco and architectural community. From skyrocketing rent prices to the rise of digital drafting tools, Susie's store remains a cherished part of her community because of the connections she's developed with her customers and staff. Today, she shares how to stay relevant in a changing market and how she built a devoted customer base. More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Susie's path to becoming a business owner is an interesting one. While many people start a business to pursue their passion, Susie initially started her store as a way to finance the work she loved to do. Listen as she shares how she decided to start ARCH Drafting Supply at just 24 years old. Susie: I came out of a very people-focused architectural education. Right out of school, I started doing architectural community organizing in an underserved neighborhood in San Francisco called Bernal Heights that was starting to undergo gentrification. And there was an effort being made to provide opportunities for families who had always live...

Join us for episode 1, where we visit A&J King Artisan Bakers in Salem, Massachusetts. And if you’re in their area, get about one newsletter a month outlining their seasonal specials, upcoming events, and other fun happenings! Small Biz Stories tells the story of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet — small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Jackie: Where do you go for advice? Sometimes you feel all alone, “No one will understand I don't even know where to begin to explain it.” Dave: You just heard the voice Jackie King, co-owner of A&J King Artisan Bakers in Salem, Massachusetts. If you own a small business it's likely you've felt something similar. Off on your own, with limited time and resources, unsure of where to go for help and guidance. This is why we started SMALL BIZ STORIES. More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Stepping inside Andy and Jackie's bakery, it doesn't take long to realize you're in for something good. The display cases are filled with freshly made earl grey scones, almond croissants, and coconut meringue tarts. The staff is friendly and focused, and the walls show off the many framed awards the bakery has received since opening its doors in 2006. Maybe most impressive is the energy of the bakery. A quick survey of the room reveals that everyone — from the people behind the counter to those seated enjoying their meal — look satisfied and at home. After speaking with Andy and Jackie, I'm not surprised their bakery has this effect on people. Growing up, both agreed to have inherited a powerful love of food from their families. But it wasn't until they tried to pursue other, seemingly more practical careers, that they began to feel like they were missing out on something. Jackie: I went to college, and then two years into that I was doing fine but I was totally feeling like I had missed out on doing what I really wanted to do. So I left traditional college and went to New England Culinary and just said, “I feel like I’ll be upset if I don’t try this.” Dave: Andy, who graduated with a music degree and started working at an educational center, described a similar realization. Andy: I remember one day I was biking through Palo Alto through the Stanford campus, because this was on the West Coast, and I saw a cafe with a bunch of professors eating and talking. And then there was the back door to the cafe where there was a bunch of cooks sitting and laughing and smoking cigarettes on their break. And I just knew I’d rather be them. Dave: It was at the New England Culinary Institute where the couple first met. After their graduation and getting married,