Podcasts about Kernel

In this podcast, Lemurian Labs CEO Jay Dawani explains why system-level compilation, not faster chips alone, may determine the future of AI infrastructure.

Palabras clave: Windows, Kernel, Memoria, Tableta, Interfaz, Evolución tecnológica. ### ️ La arquitectura del Kernel de Windows y sus retos en el hardware móvil ### El registro de Windows: eficiencia mediante mapeo en memoria ### El ciclo de vida de las versiones de Windows: avances vs. estabilidad

La historia de Daniela Castaño, cofundadora de Maíz Kernel, quién tenía una beca fullbright para ir a Stanford por un MBA, y decidió no ir para fundar su empresa.

Referências do EpisódioDirtyDecrypt: Linux kernel LPE in the RxGK subsystem (CVE-2026-31635) with public PoCDirtyDecrypt / DirtyCBCExposing Fox Tempest: A malware-signing service operationFrom PDB strings to MaaS: Tracking a commodity BadIIS ecosystem used by Chinese-speaking threatdurabletask: TeamPCP's Latest PyPi CompromiseMicrosoft shares mitigation for YellowKey Windows zero-dayCompromised Nx Console 18.95.0 Targeted VS Code Developers with Credential Stealer/bin/live: Caio Lüders e Jardel MatiasRoteiro e apresentação: Carlos CabralEdição de áudio: Paulo Arruzzo Narração de encerramento: Bianca Garcia

Apply for permanent residency in the snack zone, because we're back for De Mol België Season 14 - and its visit to Portugal! Over these nine weeks, two guys who never say no to peer pressure - Michael & Bindles - are back for the sixtieth season of the podcast and trying not to get left behind in the search for the Mole, continuing with the seventh episode and elimination of Isabel! In this episode - there's a pre-emptive non-apology, life brings Michael back down with a (very large) crash, we try and avoid the phrase "pandering to us", Café de Mol might be listening, Magellan gets offended, we discuss our encounters with birds of prey, Mole football matches get compared, we wonder what the leniency on the drum solo was, the concept of "Logan Saunders Time" is introduced, Van has been burying things, we wonder whether crowdsurfing is actually a viral challenge, there's a Belgian weather report, Bindles tries to start some trouble, there are the penultimate updates to First Suspicions and the Pool, the final set of suspects get locked in and we wonder whether Maxim was trying to attract suspicion. You can play along with the final week of this season's Bother's Bar Suspect List here. We will see you on Tuesday for Diary of a Mole (Finale) V and Thursday to recap the finale! Please note: This episode is intended on being spoiler-free, but references to any season we have already covered (WIDM 10-12, 14, 16-25 and Renaissance; België 4-13) may be made. This episode is supported by our friends over at Zencastr. Create your podcast today! Social Media: Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube Bluesky Threads Patreon  

 PopNinja Podcast co-host Patrick Bennett brings you a brand-new mini podcast spinoff, “Popcorn Kernels,” where he talks movies, comics, toys, TV, and all the nostalgic memories of growing up in the '70s and '80s. This is Patrick's personal journey through his proud and nerdy evolution from childhood to adolescence. In this first episode, he talks about his love of the 1982 film Swamp Thing and specific memories from seeing it in the theater. 

Tux turns 30! Kernel devs continue their war against old hardware, and somebody made a 3D terminal with a spinning rat cursor because reasons. Also, Twilight Princess running natively on Linux might feel deeply incorrect, but don't let that stop you.Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/lwdw⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/uQVckr5gEZ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Timestamps:00:00 Intro04:23 New Qualcomm SBC from Radxa 08:11 Linux Tux mascot turns 30 13:10 3D in the terminal with rats 19:41 AMD K6 removed from the Linux kernel 26:53 Zelda Twilight Princess decompiled for Linux TopicsTux the Penguin turns 30!https://www.xda-developers.com/linuxs-tux-the-penguin-mascot-turns-30-today/Ratty Term https://blog.orhun.dev/introducing-ratty/K5 gonehttps://shorturl.at/T7J7yDusky Zeldahttps://github.com/TwilitRealm/dusk

Episode 1: Obedience Experiments & the Current Hantavirus Scare Lead-In / Hook • Open with the fresh Hantavirus cruise ship story (May 2026 outbreak on MV Hondius: cluster of cases, deaths, WHO alerts, media panic, comparisons to past pandemics). • Ask: “Another virus scare hitting the headlines — rodent-borne hantavirus on a cruise ship, rapid media coverage, public anxiety spiking. Sound familiar?” • Thesis: “This is the perfect real-time example of how authority, conformity, and ‘trust the experts' tactics — proven in classic psychology experiments — are still being used today in public health narratives.” Section 1: The Classic Experiments (Quick Recap) • Milgram Obedience: 65% of ordinary people administered what they believed were lethal shocks because an authority figure told them to. • Stanford Prison Experiment: Normal students became abusive guards or passive prisoners in days due to assigned roles and power structures. • Asch Conformity: People denied obvious reality (line length) to match the group. • Core lesson: Authority + perceived expertise + group pressure easily override personal judgment and common sense. Section 2: How These Tactics Show Up Right Now (Hantavirus as Exhibit A) • Rapid “trust the experts/WHO” framing and fear-based coverage despite experts noting low general-public risk and rare human-to-human transmission (mainly Andes strain in this case). • Labeling of questions or skepticism as dangerous or conspiratorial (Asch conformity in action). • Positioning public health agencies and media as the sole authority figures (modern Milgram). • Role assignment: Compliant citizens vs. reckless skeptics (Stanford Prison dynamic). • Tie to broader pattern: Same playbook seen in vaccine campaigns, statin guidelines, and repeated “emergency” messaging. Section 3: The Real-World Cost (Your Trenches Perspective) • After nearly 40 years coaching and still training at 63: Clients who followed official narratives saw declining performance, metabolic issues, lost resilience. • Psychology working as designed: Creates compliance and dependency while independent thinking erodes. • Profit angle: Institutions and industries benefit from sustained fear and reliance. Section 4: Breaking Free — The Thinking Man's Approach • Recognize the tactics: Treat health messaging like any high-pressure sales pitch — question it. • Use your own data: Track personal metrics (energy, strength, how you feel) over blanket guidelines. • Build real resilience: Smart intensity training (Tabata intervals — 4 minutes of hard effort) that delivers measurable results without waiting for official approval. • Reclaim agency: Decisions based on your body and long-term outcomes, not external pressure. Closing / CTA • Once you see the pattern, you can't unsee it. • Grab the free Policy-Proof Your Health Checklist. • Question of the week: “Have you seen fear-based health messaging influencing your decisions lately?” • Empowering close: Listen to your body, think critically, and stay in control. Episode 2: Refuting Gatorade's “Hydrates Better Than Water” Claims Intro / Hook • Relatable question: “Have you ever reached for a Gatorade (even the new lower-sugar version) thinking it hydrates you better than plain water?” • Thesis: “The electrolyte science has a kernel of truth in specific situations, but the broad marketing claim is wildly overstated for most people. There's a simpler, cheaper, cleaner option that works just as well — or better.” Section 1: What Gatorade Actually Claims • Sodium helps retain fluid, maintain blood volume, reduce urine output. • Carbs + sodium boost absorption (via SGLT1 transporters) in full-sugar versions. • They apply the “proven electrolyte blend” messaging broadly, including to everyday use and the lower-sugar version. • Recent pivot: Pushing hydration for regular people, not just athletes. Section 2: Kernel of Truth (Stay Balanced) • In prolonged intense exercise (>60–90 min), heavy sweating, heat: Electrolytes (especially sodium) do help replace losses and improve retention. • “Salty sweaters” and endurance athletes see real benefit. • Give credit where it's due — no denying the narrow use case. Section 3: Context Is Everything — The Refutation • ACSM guidance: For exercise under ~1 hour or moderate intensity, little to no difference vs. plain water. • Normal diet already supplies most daily electrolytes. • Much of the perceived superiority is palatability (people drink more flavored liquid). When volume is equal, the gap shrinks dramatically. • Lower-sugar version loses most of the carb-absorption advantage. Section 4: The Better Alternative — DIY Salt Water • Simple recipe: 16–20 oz water + 1/8–1/4 tsp high-quality sea salt (~300–500 mg sodium) + squeeze of lemon/lime. • Optional: Tiny bit of honey for longer sessions. • Why it wins: Full control over sodium, zero added sugar/additives, much cheaper, cleaner. • Evidence: Sodium-enhanced fluids improve retention in relevant scenarios (Beverage Hydration Index research). • Advantages: Avoid excess sugar, customize to your needs, no marketing hype. Section 5: Critique of the Research • Often-cited studies (e.g., small 2008 kayaker trial) have limitations: tiny samples, specific conditions, industry ties (GSSI). • Independent sources (Harvard Health, ACSM): Water + balanced diet is enough for the vast majority of people. Conclusion & Takeaways • Bottom line: Pinch of salt in water beats Gatorade for everyday or moderate activity. Save commercial drinks for true long, brutal endurance efforts in extreme conditions. • Action step: Try the DIY version this week and compare how you feel. • Listener question: “What's your go-to hydration strategy?” • Empowering note: Hydration doesn't need to be expensive or complicated — listen to your body and use common sense. These talking points keep both episodes concise, conversational, and true to your style. The obedience episode leads strongly with the timely Hantavirus example, then flows naturally into practical health ownership (including hydration as a real-world application).

En este episodio analizo la nueva política del Kernel de Linux sobre el uso de IA en el desarrollo de software y qué significa realmente para los programadores. Hablamos de transparencia, responsabilidad humana, asistentes de código, revisión técnica y del cambio que está viviendo la profesión de desarrollador con la llegada de la IA.

Parce que… c'est l'épisode 0x2EF! Shameless plug 28 et 29 avril 2026 - Cybereco Cyberconférence 2026 9 au 17 mai 2026 - NorthSec 2026 3 au 5 juin 2026 - SSTIC 2026 24 et 25 juin 2026 - Troopers 26 et 27 juin 2026 - leHACK 19 septembre 2026 - Bsides Montréal 1 au 3 décembre 2026 - Forum INCYBER - Canada 2026 24 et 25 février 2027 - SéQCure 2027 Notes IA ou Ghost in the shell Mythos NSA Reportedly Using Anthropic's Mythos Despite Pentagon Blacklist US security agency is using Anthropic's Mythos despite blacklist, Axios reports Unauthorized Group Gains Access to Anthropic's Exclusive Cyber Tool Mythos Anthropic Mythos shaping up as nothingburger The Boy That Cried Mythos: Verification is Collapsing Trust in Anthropic The Guardian view on Anthropic's Claude Mythos: when AI finds every flaw, who controls the internet? Mozilla: Anthropic's Mythos found 271 security vulnerabilities in Firefox 150 The AI era demands a different kind of CISO Paradigme AI-Powered Exploitation May Collapse the Patch Window for Defenders AI Model Claude Opus turns bugs into exploits for just $2,283 Why the Axios attack proves AI is mandatory for supply chain security Un agent IA chinois a trouvé près de 1 000 failles inédites, dont certaines dans Microsoft Office MCP MCP Servers Are the New APIs — And We're Making the Same Security Mistakes How Anthropic's Model Context Protocol Allows For Easy Remote Execution Prove You Are a Robot: CAPTCHAs for Agents Anthropic secretly installs spyware when you install Claude Desktop AI Agents Think. They Just Don't Know They're Being Watched. Vuln in Google's Antigravity AI agent manager could escape sandbox, give attackers remote code execution Lovable denies data leak, cites ‘intentional behavior' Kernel code removals driven by LLM-created security reports Introducing OpenAI Privacy Filter La guerre, la guerre, c'est pas une raison pour se faire mal! Iran claims US used backdoors in networking equipment Souveraineté ou vive le numérique libre! [Matrix in Europe Digital sovereignty](https://element.io/en/matrix-in-europe) FCC adds mobile hotspots to router ban Privacy ou cachez ces informations que je ne saurais voir Une faille IndexedDB permettait de relier toutes vos identités Tor Nullroom - Un chat P2P qui s'efface en 15 minutes Proton CEO: Age checks turn internet into ID checkpoint Apple stops weirdly storing data that let cops spy on Signal chats Why you should refuse to let your doctor record you Privacy Advocate Accuses US Government of Investing in AI-Powered Mass Surveillance I am the law Elon Musk fails to appear for questioning by French police over sexualized AI images on X Loi séparatisme - Le blocage sans juge gagne du terrain Most Australian teens admit the social media ban isn't working as they try to sidestep age verification blocks with face masks and their parents' IDs Colorado Adds Open-Source Exemption to Age-Attestation Bill Red ou tout ce qui est brisé You Don't Need to Hack the System. You Just Need to Make People Think You Did. Apple Knows. Visa Knows. Nobody Has Fixed It. Here's Why. Cyberattack at French identity document agency may have exposed personal data France's ‘Secure' ID agency probes claimed 19M record breach Another npm supply chain worm hits dev environments Bitwarden CLI Compromised in Ongoing Checkmarx Supply Chain … Why Phishing Still Works (Even If You Know About It) Blue ou tout ce qui améliore notre posture DDoS Kevin Beaumont: “If anybody is wondering, masto…” - Cyberplace DDoS wave continues as Mastodon hit after Bluesky incident Network ‘background noise' may predict the next big edge-device vulnerability NCSC: Passkeys now good enough to be the default standard Kevin Beaumont: “I just want to give the analysts at Dragos credit here for how they framed this - it's really responsible.” - Cyberplace You don't want long-lived keys Divers ou parce que j'ai aucune idée où les placer Quadratic Contrary to popular superstition, AES 128 is just fine in a post-quantum world In a first, a ransomware family is confirmed to be quantum-safe Original GrapheneOS responses to WIRED fact checker Palantir Employees Are Starting to Wonder if They're the Bad Guys Les cartes bancaires biométriques sont-elles une vraie avancée ou du bullshit marketing ? Histoire Un malware qui pourrait être la toute première cyberarme de l'histoire Discret 11, the French TV encryption of the 80's Collaborateurs Nicolas-Loïc Fortin Crédits Montage par Intrasecure inc Locaux réels par Moxy Montreal Downtown

This week Singpolyma joins us to talk about the Cheogram web app. We talk about NASA's Orion Artemis II Optical Communications System (O2O) and how it's changing the way long distance communication works! -- During The Show -- 00:48 - Special Guest Singpolyam cross platform core Cheogram Web App Still considered Alpha Pretty stable Voice, Video, Text JMP.chat data only sim esim adapter Snikket Affect of Google forcing developer registration JMP.Chat 10:38 Comprehension debt Creating prompts Spec driven developing Most people don't read the code No person understands how the code works Peer review vs AI Amazon outages When to use AI code Re-implementing AI code AI summary Rating your understanding RAID log 24:30 Linux Router - Connor VyOS OpenWRT PFSense is out Look for things with an API PFSenseible GitHub Site to Site in medical Dicom Why not to use pfSense OPNsense 35:30 JMP.chat - Aaron Cheogram Web App Webapp Manager GitHub 36:15 System Fails to boot -Advait Can't remember the last time it happened Noah doesn't fix systems Reinstall plus ansible 41:12 News Wire Nginx 1.30 - nginx.org OpenSSL 4.0 - github.com Gnome 50.1 - gnome.org KDE Gear 26.04 - kde.org Mir 2.26 - ubuntu.com Linux 7.1 - theregister.com Zorin OS 18.1 - blog.zorin.com Solus 4.9 - getsol.us Cachy OS has 7.0 Kernel - xda-developers.com Thunderbolt AI Client - phoronix.com Cal Closeing Source Code - zdnet.com 42:25 Sleuth's Feedback VyOS Uses a JSON config file Have the system make backups Supports podman containers System failing to boot Your data is still there Boot from a live distro 45:30 Artemis II Mission Crew Module ESM - European Service Module Radio waves O2O communications 1 watt of power focused beam, sensitive receiver 260 MbPs TechSpot -- The Extra Credit Section -- For links to the articles and material referenced in this week's episode check out this week's page from our podcast dashboard! This Episode's Podcast Dashboard Phone Systems for Ask Noah provided by Voxtelesys Join us in our dedicated chatrSpecial Guest: Stephen Paul Weber.

In this episode, Catherine, Co-Founder, and CEO of Kernel, reveals the magic behind Kernel's approach using uni-kernels and micro VMs, enabling browser startups in just milliseconds. We talk about the technical challenges of agent-based web interactions, how Cash App leverages Kernel for live QA of e-commerce sites, the intricacies of handling authentication, and the future potential of attaching virtual GPUs for optimal performance. Whether you're an AI developer or fascinated by the backbone of internet automation, don't miss this insightful conversation. Chapters:00:00 Introduction to AI Agent Challenges00:35 Welcome and Episode Overview01:58 Guest Introduction and Background02:39 The Problem Statement and Kernel's Origin07:21 Infrastructure for AI Agents16:09 Kernel's Technical Architecture20:33 Use Cases and Real-World Applications24:38 Challenges and Future Directions27:20 Running on Bare Metal: Optimizing Browser Instances28:02 Challenges in Infrastructure Optimization30:34 Headful Browsers and Human Interaction30:58 Recording and Debugging Browser Sessions33:42 Preventing Misuse of Browser Automation39:55 Handling Authentication and Secure Access44:57 Bot Detection and Good Actor Automations48:56 Future Developments and GPU Integration52:41 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsImportant links:- Homepage to go get a free account (no credit card required) and just try us out: https://www.kernel.sh/ - Our chromium on Unikernels OSS repo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43705144- The blog post where in it we benchmarked ourselves against all others and ranked the fastest browser infrastructure in the world: https://www.kernel.sh/blog/fast For memberships: join this channel as a member here:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_mGuY4g0mggeUGM6V1osdA/joinDon't forget to like, share, and subscribe for more insights!=============================================================================Like building stuff? Try out CodeCrafters and build amazing real world systems like Redis, Kafka, Sqlite. Use the link below to signup and get 40% off on paid subscription.https://app.codecrafters.io/join?via=geeknarrator=============================================================================Database internals series: https://youtu.be/yV_Zp0Mi3xsPopular playlists:Realtime streaming systems: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7QpTxsA4se-mAKKoVOs3VcaP71X_LA-Software Engineering: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7QpTxsA4sf6By03bot5BhKoMgxDUU17Distributed systems and databases: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7QpTxsA4sfLDUnjBJXJGFhhz94jDd_dModern databases: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7QpTxsA4scSeZAsCUXijtnfW5ARlrsNStay Curios! Keep Learning!

In questa puntata parlo di Semantic Kernel con un taglio pratico: quando serve davvero in un'applicazione .NET, dove puo' aiutare e dove invece rischia di essere solo complessita' in piu'. Il punto non e' solo chiamare un modello, ma integrare AI, tool e contesto senza perdere controllo e architettura.https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/semantic-kernel/overview/https://github.com/microsoft/semantic-kernelhttps://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-microsoft-extensions-ai-preview/https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/ai/microsoft-extensions-aihttps://learn.microsoft.com/it-it/azure/foundry-local/get-started#dotnet #podcast #dotnetinpillole #semantickernel #ai #generativeai #llm #openai #azureopenai #microsoft #microsoftextensionsai #microsoftfoundrylocal #softwarearchitecture #developer #programming #coding

Rock Band 4 fixes land in Kernel 7.0! Installing (and playing DOOM) on a router, France installs Linux, and Oberon System 3 on Raspberry Pi.Patreon: ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/lwdw⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/uQVckr5gEZ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TOPICSDOOMing a routerhttps://interfacinglinux.com/2026/04/09/doom-on-the-banana-pi-r4-pro/France to Linuxhttps://www.zdnet.com/article/france-leaves-windows-for-linux-desktop/Linux Kernel 7https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2026/04/linux-7-0-kernel-featuresOberon System 3 on Raspberry Pi 3https://github.com/rochus-keller/OberonSystem3Native/releases/tag/2026-04-1000:00 Intro03:48 RPG adventures with cars08:56 Playing DOOM on a router 18:46 France install Linux 26:28 Kernel 7.0 ROCKS37:41 Oberon System 3 on Raspberry Pi 3

The power of embracing your country's national identity, philosophy or religion as the foundation for your company's customer-centric culture transformation.Connect with Sam on LinkedIn - I share customer experience content multiple times a week, and love hearing from listeners with questions or ideas for topics.Subscribe to my newsletter, Customer Experience Patterns - I publish a new edition with each episode of the podcast.My LinkedIn Learning courses: Customer Experience: 6 Essential Foundations For Lasting Loyalty, How To Create Great Customer Experiences & Build A Customer-Centric Culture. In-depth video series that teach you how to create great experiences, and build customer-centric cultuers.Thanks to my talented colleague Emily Tolmer for the cover art. Thanks to my friends at Moon Island for the music. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2026, Lena Hall and Thorsten Hans of Akamai outlined how the company is evolving from a CDN provider into a developer-focused cloud platform for AI. Akamai's strategy centers on low-latency, distributed computing, combining managed Kubernetes, serverless functions, and a distributed AI inference platform to support modern workloads. With a global footprint of core and “distributed reach” datacenters, Akamai aims to bring compute closer to users while still leveraging centralized infrastructure for heavier processing. This hybrid model enables faster feedback loops critical for applications like fraud detection, robotics, and conversational AI. To address concerns about complexity, Akamai emphasizes managed infrastructure and self-service tools that abstract away integration challenges. Its platform supports open source through managed Kubernetes and pre-packaged tools, simplifying deployment. Akamai also invests in serverless technologies like WebAssembly-based functions, enabling developers to build and deploy globally distributed applications quickly. Overall, the company prioritizes developer experience, allowing teams to focus on application logic rather than infrastructure management. Learn more from The New Stack about the latest developments around how Akamai is transforming to a developer-focused cloud platform for AI. Akamai Picks Up Hosting for Kernel.org Should You Care About Fermyon Wasm Functions on Akamai? Join our community of newsletter subscribers to stay on top of the news and at the top of your game.   

Ever lost an argument you know you should have won — but couldn't explain why? That's not a coincidence. It's a strategy called "The Pop." Tony Overbay, LMFT, introduces a powerful new framework for understanding one of the most disorienting dynamics in emotionally immature and narcissistic relationships: paltering — using technically true statements to build a completely false picture of reality. Through vivid storytelling, real listener examples, and the unforgettable journey of a popcorn kernel named Kevin, Tony names the mechanism that has left so many people feeling crazy when they were actually catching something real. In this episode, you'll discover: What "The Pop" is and why a single kernel of truth can expand into a narrative that fills the entire room — mostly air How paltering differs from outright lying, and why your brain's alarm system doesn't fire the way it normally would Real stories from The Kernel Collection — listener-submitted examples of half-truths weaponized in relationships Why you became a "court reporter" in your own relationship, and why that's an adaptation — not a flaw How implicit memory — your body's record of every conversation that left you smaller — is the one thing The Pop can't touch With over 1,500 couples counseled and hundreds of clients navigating narcissistic relationship dynamics, Tony delivers both the clinical framework and the emotional validation this topic demands. If you've ever told yourself, "I can't point to a specific lie — so maybe I'm the problem," this episode will change how you see every confusing conversation you've ever had. 00:00 Popcorn Obsession 01:36 Kernel Origin Story 02:46 Kevin Pops 05:48 Truth Becomes Weapon 09:33 Show Intro Concept 12:38 Paltering Half Truths 16:49 NXIVM Big Example 20:31 Long Term Erosion 21:38 Lauren Pattern Example 24:04 Listener Stories 25:56 Dinner Drinks Story 29:55 Flat Tire Example 30:22 Flat Tire Blame Shift 32:12 Confabulated Hero Narrative 33:38 Money Versus Love Trap 34:41 Doctor Appointment Reversal 36:26 Sorry But Apology 38:21 Why The Pop Works 40:24 Court Reporter Survival 43:16 Mindfulness And Runway 45:37 Boundaries Not Ultimatums 52:10 Trust Implicit Memory 53:50 Orienting Steps Forward 55:20 Differentiation And Crucible 01:01:44 Closing Takeaways Learn more at tonyoverbay.com and explore the Magnetic Marriage course for relationships where both people want to do the work. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

¡Hola! Soy Lorenzo y en este episodio te abro las puertas de mi laboratorio personal para contarte cómo estoy viviendo la gran migración de toda mi infraestructura —incluyendo atareao.es— de Docker hacia Podman. Si llevas tiempo siguiéndome, sabrás que desde mediados de enero te he estado dando pinceladas sobre las bondades de Podman, pero hoy bajamos al barro: te cuento cómo me he puesto manos a la obra para que esta transición no sea solo un cambio de herramienta, sino una evolución total en seguridad y eficiencia.El corazón de este movimiento es el concepto "rootless". He rediseñado por completo la forma en la que entiendo el servidor virtual. Olvídate de ejecutarlo todo como root; aquí te explico cómo he separado las responsabilidades creando un usuario administrador con sudo (que apenas usamos) y un usuario dedicado exclusivamente a las aplicaciones ("apps") que no tiene privilegios de administrador. Esta capa de seguridad adicional cambia las reglas del juego y nos permite dormir mucho más tranquilos.A lo largo del podcast, desgloso mi metodología para lograr un despliegue homogéneo, reproducible e idempotente. Te hablo de los Quadlets, de cómo orquestar servicios como Traefik, WordPress y MariaDB de forma sencilla, y de por qué he decidido tratar mis archivos de configuración de contenedores como si fueran simples "dotfiles". Para ello, te presento mi flujo de trabajo con YADM (Yet Another Dotfiles Manager), que me permite replicar toda mi configuración en cualquier servidor nuevo en menos de dos minutos.También entramos en detalles técnicos de "hardening". Te cuento qué parámetros del kernel he tocado para evitar ataques de red, cómo he configurado el SSH para que sea una fortaleza inexpugnable y por qué he vuelto a confiar en Fail2Ban, no solo por seguridad, sino para ahorrar ciclos de CPU que antes se desperdiciaban gestionando ataques por fuerza bruta. Además, te muestro mi kit de herramientas esenciales: desde Crypta para la gestión de secretos hasta utilidades como Zoxide, Starship o Neovim que hacen que trabajar en la terminal sea una delicia.Capítulos:00:00:00 Introducción: La migración de atareao.es a Podman00:00:44 Por qué abandonar Docker: Ventajas del modelo Rootless00:01:05 Orquestación con Quadlets: Homogeneidad e Idempotencia00:02:12 Estrategia de pruebas: El entorno en Hetzner00:03:05 Seguridad avanzada: Configuración de usuarios Admin vs Apps00:05:12 Automatización con Scripts: Instalación de herramientas esenciales00:06:25 Hardening del Kernel y Red: Protegiendo el servidor00:07:28 Hardening de SSH y la importancia de Fail2Ban en el consumo de CPU00:08:54 Firewall y optimización para HTTP/300:09:25 El script del usuario 'Apps': Persistencia y Sockets de Podman00:10:20 Herramientas de terceros: Sops, Crypta y gestión de secretos00:11:27 El dilema de la gestión: ¿Por qué tratar contenedores como Dotfiles?00:12:21 YADM: El motor de despliegue para mis archivos de configuración00:13:03 Estructura de directorios: Available vs Systemd00:14:36 Demostración lógica: Habilitando y deshabilitando stacks (Qlist)00:16:34 Conclusiones de las pruebas: Estabilidad y rapidez de réplica00:18:14 Ventajas e inconvenientes del flujo de trabajo en terminal00:19:17 Próximos pasos y despedida: El futuro en PodmanEspero que disfrutes de este viaje técnico tanto como yo he disfrutado rompiendo y reconstruyendo mi servidor para traerte esta solución estable. ¡No olvides unirte al grupo de Telegram de Atareao con Linux para comentar tus propias experiencias migrando a Podman!Más información y enlaces en las notas del episodio

Sam Valencia, Jerry Zigmont and Joe Saponare discuss working with Apple technology and clients. Drawn from their combined experience of over 20 years in the Apple Consultants Network, thaey discuss technical support issues both with the technology and working with clients.

Claude Cowork came out of an accident.Felix and the Anthropic team noticed something interesting with Claude Code: many users were using it primarily for all kinds of messy knowledge work instead of coding. Even technical builders would use it for lots of non-technical work.Even more shocking, Claude cowork wrote itself. With a team of humans simply orchestrating multiple claude code instances, the tool was ready after a brief week and a half.This isn't Felix's first rodeo with impactful and playful desktop apps. He's helped ship the Slack desktop app and is a core maintainer of Electron the open-source software framework used for building cross-platform desktop applications, even putting Windows 95 into an Electron app that runs on macOS, Windows, and Linux.In this episode, Felix joins us to unpack why execution has suddenly become cheap enough that teams can “just build all the candidates” and why the real frontier in AI products is no longer better chat, but trusted task execution.He also shares why Anthropic is betting on local-first agent workflows, why skills may matter more than most people realize, and how the hardest questions ahead are about autonomy, safety, portability, and the changing shape of knowledge work itself.We discuss* Felix's path: Slack desktop app, Electron, Windows 95 in JavaScript, and now building Claude Cowork at Anthropic* What Claude Cowork actually is: a more user-friendly, VM-based version of Claude Code designed to bring agentic workflows to non-terminal-native users* Why “user-friendly” does not mean “less powerful”: Cowork as a superset product, much like how VS Code initially looked simpler than Visual Studio but became more hackable and extensible* Anthropic's prototype-first culture: why Cowork was built in 10 days using many pre-existing internal pieces, and how internal prototypes shaped the final product* Why execution is getting cheap: the shift from long memos, specs, and debate toward rapidly building multiple candidates and choosing based on reality instead of theory* The local debate: why Felix thinks Silicon Valley is undervaluing the local computer, and why putting Claude “where you work” is often more powerful* Why Claude gets its own computer: the VM as both a safety boundary and a capability unlock, letting Claude install tools, run scripts, and work more independently without constant approval* Safety through sandboxing: why “approve every command” is not a real long-term UX, and how virtual machines create a middle ground between uselessly safe and dangerously autonomous* How Cowork differs from Claude Code: coding evals vs. knowledge-work evals, different system-prompt tradeoffs, longer planning horizons, and heavier use of planning and clarification tools* Why skills matter: simple markdown-based instructions as a lightweight abstraction layer for reusable workflows, personalized automation, and portable agent behavior* Skills vs. MCPs: why Felix is increasingly interested in file-based, text-native interfaces that tell the model what to do, rather than forcing everything through rigid tool schemas* The portability problem: why personal skills should move across agent products, and the unresolved tension between public reusable workflows and private user-specific context* Real use cases already happening today: uploading videos, organizing files, handling taxes, managing calendars, debugging internal crashes, analyzing finances, and automating repetitive browser workflows* Why AI products should work with your existing stack: Anthropic's bias toward integrating with Chrome, Office, and existing workflows instead of rebuilding every app from scratch* Computer use one year later: how much better it has gotten, why vision plus browser context is such a superpower, and why letting Claude see the thing it is working on changes everything* Why many “AI verticals” may get compressed: specialized wrappers may matter in the short term, but better general models and stronger primitives could absorb a lot of narrow use cases* The future of junior work: Felix's concerns about entry-level roles, labor-market disruption, and whether AI can compress early-career learning into denser simulated experience* Why Waterloo grads stand out: internships, shipping experience, and learning how real teams build products versus purely theoretical academic preparation* The agentic future of the desktop: what it means for Claude to have its own computer, whether AI should act on your machine or a remote one, and how intimacy with personal data changes the product design space* Why Electron still mattered: shipping Chromium as a controlled rendering stack, the limits of OS-native webviews, and why browser engines remain one of the great software abstractions* Anthropic's Labs mentality: wild internal experiments, half-broken future-looking prototypes, and the broader effort to move users from asking questions to delegating increasingly long and valuable tasks* Why the endgame is not just more capability, but more independence: teaching users to trust AI with bigger scopes of work, for longer durations, with fewer interventionsFelix Rieseberg* X: https://x.com/felixrieseberg* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/felixrieseberg* Website: https://felixrieseberg.com/Anthropic* Website: http://anthropic.comFull Video PodTimestamps00:00 — Cheap execution and building all the candidates00:44 — Intro in the new Kernel studio02:47 — What Claude Cowork is04:18 — Why user-friendly can be more powerful05:33 — How Anthropic built Cowork07:09 — Prototype-first product development08:00 — Why local computers still matter09:20 — Skills, primitives, and platform leverage12:13 — Cowork's architecture: VM + Chrome + system prompt15:38 — Felix's own bug-fixing Cowork workflows17:38 — Local-first agents20:16 — Evals, planning, and knowledge-work optimization23:14 — What Anthropic means by evals24:21 — Scaffolding, tools, and why skills matter27:44 — Demo: YouTube uploads and self-generated skills31:03 — Calendar automation and cleaning your desktop34:47 — Browser context and why DOM access matters37:47 — Skills portability and plugins44:36 — Which AI categories survive?46:19 — Junior jobs, simulated work, and labor disruption52:00 — Gradual takeoff vs big-bang takeoff53:42 — Finance, taxes, and enterprise verticals56:24 — Vision and the improvement in computer use57:31 — Why Claude writes its own scripts58:06 — Should Claude have its own computer?1:01:26 — Windows 95 in JavaScript1:03:19 — VM tradeoffs and sandbox design1:07:23 — Approval fatigue and safe delegation1:11:18 — The future of Cowork1:12:27 — What comes next for agentic knowledge work1:15:13 — Electron, Chromium, and desktop software lessons1:22:16 — Multiplayer agents and coworker-to-coworker workflows1:26:05 — Anthropic Labs and closing thoughtsTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast, our first one in the new studio. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by swyx, editor of Latent Space.swyx: Yeah, so nice to be here. Thanks to, uh, TJ, Alessio, Allen helping to set everything up. It looks beautiful. We even have the logo outside.Yeah, kind.Felix: It's like really nice, right? When you walk in here as a guest, you're like, ah, this is a serious production. You're like, feel it immediately.swyx: Yeah. Felix, you've been, you're, you're currently a product manager of Cowork or,Felix: uh, really Technicswyx: Eng. Yeah. The, the identities are kind of vague member technical staff.Felix: I know member staff is like, the official title will carry around forever.swyx: Yeah. I basically kind of wanted, like we've been. Kinda obsessed. I, I've been using it a lot, even for managing latent space. Like, uh, cowork helps me upload videos and like title things and like edit and everything. It's, it's like really amazing.Alessio: Cool. He said multiple times Cowork has said gi in the group track.swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so we have a second, uh, we have a second channel, uh, for latent space tv. Uh, and I, uh, and uh, we basically, this is our Discord meetup. Um, and I I, we have like Claude Coworks, it might be a GI, I don't know if we, we have, uh, uploaded it yet, but one of the sessions was like a, like a Claude cowork thing.Felix: I, you have to see, I would love to see it. Like, I'm so curious, like one of the most fun parts of my job is like constantly see the weird things people use Cowork for because it's obviously like very hard for us to actually design for specific use cases we do. But like every single person who's like most amazed is usually amazed about a thing that I didn't even expect cowork would be good at.Um, we have a new designer and it's one of the first small tasks. I was like, Hey, we need like a new emoji for cowork for our internal stock. It's like a pretty small thing. I like, can you please do it? And he drew an SVG and just gave it to coworker was like, can you animate this emoji? And now it has like this beautiful loopy animation.Um, and I mean, I think obviously this goes down to like, it turns out you can do more things with code than you expected, but it, it's like that kind of stuff that is really fun to me. So, long story short, I would love to see like, the kind of things you're doing.swyx: I'll pull it up. I'll pull it up.Felix: Yeah. Yeah.swyx: Uh, but before we get into it, I, I think always wanna start with like a top level. What is Claude Cowork for people who haven't heard of it? Haven't tried it out.Felix: Okay. Uh, real quick, Claude Cowork is a user friendly version of Claude Code. So the way it basically works is we have Claude Code and for us, fairly impressive agent harness that over December we noticed more and more people are using either, even though they're not technical, they, they're not at home in the terminal or they are at home in the terminal, but they started using Claude Code for non-coding workloads, right?Like managing expenses or like filling out receipts or organizing a knowledge base. Like there was a big obsidian moment that a lot of people liked and we wanted to capitalize on that, but also bring, bring this capability to people who are not terminal native and who might not know how to like brew and store something.So cowork is Claude Code running in original machine with a little bit of padding, a little bit more guardrails, making it a little safer and a little bit more convenient for people who don't wanna first open up the terminal when they go to work.swyx: It's interesting, uh, that is kind of. Pitch that way as a more user friendly thing because I always feel like it, it, to me, I I treat it as like why I'm familiar with Claude Code.Like we, we did a Claude Code episode Yeah. A year ago. But this one is like even more power user tools ‘cause it, uh, it kind of integrates much better with like clotting Chrome and, uh, in all the, all the other tooling. But like, maybe, maybe that's like a perception thing, right? LikeFelix: No, honestly, I don't think you're wrong.This is like a, a thing I've been thinking a lot about for like the last two weeks. So,swyx: but when they say user friendly, it's like, oh, it's the dumb down version. But no, actually this is the superset.Felix: Yeah. Like, I think a similar thing happened, A similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago, like maybe 12 years ago when I was at Microsoft and we started working on, on Electron and like browser-based technologies and cross-platform stuff.And one of the first use cases was Visual Studio Code, which used to be a website. And the initial narrative was, or Visual Studio Code is, is like a more user-friendly version of Visual Studio. But in a similar vein, I think there was some voices saying, oh, this is. For serious developers, like, we're not gonna use this.Right? For like anything. And I think in the end what happened is people have different stories about why Visual Studio Code became such a big thing. But my personal, my personal belief is that the Hackability and the extendability has like played a pretty big role, right? You can hook in Visual Studio Code that like almost any workload, it's so easy to hack on, so easy to put extensions for it.And I think cowork might be hitting a similar thing where it's very easy to extend and it's very easy to bring into your workflows. Uh, so the convenience I think is a bit of a, it's obviously the thing we strive for as developers, but I think the way people find value in it then is by probably mapping it onto whatever they actually have to do in their job.Alessio: So end of last year, you see the spike of like non-technical usage and clock code. What's the design process to say we should make clock code work? Because I mean, you built it in only 10 days. Um, I'm sure there was some discussion before on whether it's easier to use mean. You know, like making, making like a desktop GUI is obviously one way to do it, but like there's a lot of nuance in the product.Like maybe talk people through what was like the trigger of like, we should build a separate thing. We should not build like a different plot code thing. And then maybe some of the more interesting design decisions that maybe you didn't take.Felix: Yeah, I think philanthropic, we've been thinking about ways to move people who are comfortable with using Claude to answer questions and bring more of the power of like this thing to now like, execute tasks for you.I can like solve problems for you can like build things for you. How do we bring that capability to people who are currently mostly comfortable with like a like question answer paradigm within the chat. And we've had a lot of prototypes around that. Just going back as far as like easily a year and a half.Like we had a lot of people working on that. Um, and internally philanthropic is a very prototype demo, first culture. We have a lot of like internal prototypes that don't reach the public. What Cowork actually became is like we sort of picked the right pieces out of the many prototypes that we had.Right. And that's, that's maybe also like, I think an important qualifier whenever people mention this like 10 day number. I do think it's important to me to mention that within Double Scratch there was like a lot of stuff already happening, right? Like, and I think it's important for people to remember that when you build a website, you use React, you use like a bunch of other things.And this is like a similar scenario with like a lot of pieces we already had. Um, and in terms of decision path, I think we live in like an interesting new world where execution is actually quite cheap.swyx: Mm-hmm.Felix: So maybe, maybe what you would do That's so crazy. The year. I know it's wild.swyx: You should be, ideas are cheap.Execution is the hard part. IFelix: know. And like the, we, we used to live in this world maybe where you would take a product manager and the product manager would go to a number of potential customers and in this like very low bandwidth way, would try to. Try to like tease out what are the problems they're having, what are they willing to buy?Um, and then maybe what can you build to like drive out that need and then you go back and you like draft a spec and you think about it and then like you make a design and you execute it. We internally philanthropic app, not pretty much closer to the point where we're like, don't even write a memo, just like build, like let's build all the candidates very quickly.Let's just build all of them and then pick the best ones. I think the, the decision that is most impactful both for the product as well for the users right now is like the way we put value on your local computer. I think that's a big decision point a lot of people have thought about. Should this thing, whatever it is, should it ultimately run into computer or should it run in the cloud?‘cause they're big trade offs, right?Alessio: I guess like if we solve auth, it would be easy to do in the cloud. But I think like the fact that I can just download any file from anywhere and then put it and cowork there, it's like a big unlock. Um, I mean it's interesting you mentioned reusing certain pieces. I think this is something I've been thinking about even with Claude Code, right?The price of like writing code is going to zero, blah, blah, blah. But it actually seems like the value of having some sort of platform substrate is like increasing because as you build these new things, you can kind of plug them together.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: So I almost feel like when people are saying, oh, the value of a lot of software is gonna zero because you can recreate it, to me it's almost like the opposite.It's like having an existing platform to build on top of. It's like even more valuable because you can kind of bolt things on.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: You have obviously mcps, you have skills, you have like obviously the models, which is a big part. All these things kind of come together. Do you feel like that's a valid way to think about it, where people should invest even more in kind of like primitives.To rebuild on or are you like recreating a lot of it each time because like things change and it's easier to rewrite than reuse?Felix: You know, I think, I think you're right. I think you're right that the holistic platform is really useful. And this is maybe a whole like a somewhat contrarian view to a lot of people in ai.I actually don't think that the future is going to be hyper personalized software down to the point where everyone is running their own version. Like, I actually think it's going to be quite hard for all of us to have our own internal chat tool and like, if I wanna talk to you, likeswyx: howFelix: is that gonna work, right?In the, in the context of cowork and how we build it, I think it's a bit of a combination. Like what the, the execution that gets cheap is not necessarily rebuilding all the primitives. I think our priori, there's also not a lot of value in it. So for instance, my team did not think about rebuilding clock code.We're like very much started with the. The core thesis of this should be Claude Code.Mm-hmm.Felix: And then we'll like build things on top of it. The part of the execution that gets a little cheaper is like, how do you take all of these Lego pieces and put them together in a way that makes sense for users?It's like actually valuable. You have so many different approaches now in terms of what kind of, what kind of things do you actually elevate to a primitive, do you strongly believe that all your products should be built by just combining primitive that the public also has available? Do you keep some things internal?Um, and I think that's still evolving, but I think what's probably gonna go away is like, I'm not sure if it's gonna fully go away, but I'm gonna say, I think for me personally, I will probably no longer try to come up with a really good product without testing up with people. This is not a new concept, but wherever you used to have to make costly decisions around, do we pick technology A or technology B, or do we like, um, build it this way, build it the other way.I really strongly believe now you just build all of them and try them out with a small focus group and then whatever, whatever is better is what you go with. Right. And that, that is probably quite different even from how we maybe worked a year ago. Right. Like, I think, I think this happened very recently.Alessio: Yeah. I started building something in on Electron since you're here. Coincidence. Uh, but then Electron and like SQL Light are like, there's like some issues that like between development and like, uh, building anyway. And I was like, let's just rebuild the whole thing in Swift and just recreated the whole thing in Swift.And it's like, I. It's done.swyx: You know, I didn't take any effort. I, I, I don't even know Swift.Alessio: Yeah, exactly. I was like, I'm the, I'm not reviewing it anyway, whatever. You can write in whatever language you pick, but the important stuff that I did was not write the electron bindings. Yeah. It was like the logic of what happens in the app, you know, and then the model is like, yeah, I can just recreate the same thing as withswyx: Yeah.I, I think you still want, especially for people who are doing like high performance software or like very complex software, uh, you still want like, some view of the architecture. Uh, but you can use markdown for that,Felix: right? Yeah.swyx: Uh, you don't actually have to read the code again. I, I'm still like on a sort of like a definitional thing.Um, can we build a good mental model of Claude Cowork? Um, this is what I have, right? Like you you said it's like fundamentally cloud co. We don't wanna touch it. There's the cloud app, there's clouding Chrome. I think you guys do something different in planning, but, uh, I've been talking with Tariq who is on the cloud co team, and you guys are, he's like, no, we just exposed planning.Maybe we can clarify like, what are the major pieces. That people should be aware. It goes into cowork, like,Felix: okay, I think you basically have them. So really, um, you can, you can take planning more or less out. I think there's a few things that are really valuable in cowork. Um, the virtual machine is probably the most powerful thing.So we currently run like a, we currently run like a lightweight VM and we put clocked out into the vm and we do that for, for, um, a number of reasons. Safety and security is a big one, but even if you, even if you ignore for a second safety and security and you're just like, okay, Yolo, I want this thing to do whatever.It is quite powerful to give Claus on computer that is like generally a good idea. And in terms of architecture and UX and everything else that we've been working on, philanthropic, it often is quite useful for you to like anthropomorphize, um, clot aggressively and just be like, this is a person. What will you do if you give a, if you had a person, right?Yeah. And the analogy I've given my dad this morning who is still like quite insistent on using chat even for like coding things, is if you were a developer and your employer told you that you don't need a computer, they're just gonna like, send you emails with a code and you send emails with code back like that, maybe work for Patrick Miles in the back, but that it's not very effective.Um, so what we can do with the VM is because it's a, it's a Linux system, Claude Code has more or less free reign to install whatever needs to install. It can install Python, it can install no js. We do have strict network ingress and egress controls. So you can still, as, as a user in like plain human language, make it clear to, to the entire system what you're okay with and what you're not okay with.But at no point do we have to ask a real person, like a, like a person who might be in marketing or a lawyer. I'd have to go to a lawyer and be like, are you okay with me installing Homebrew?Alessio: Yeah, yeah.Felix: Right. Because the implications of the question and the answer are complex and nuanced and like, not, not easy to reason about.This gives us a lot of distraction that makes Cloud very powerful. Now then around it, we, we do probably have a number of things that also keeps growing almost every single week that you're probably noticing that make cowork maybe better for certain tasks than just cloud. Cloud on its own. Yeah. But most of those actually live in the system prompt.They're about like, what can we infer about the work that you do? What can we, what can we intru in the system prompt to make that more effective? It's of course the like very tight integration with Cloud and Chrome. You're noticing that a lot of people, especially as the models get better, a lot of people throw up their hands when it comes to MCP connectors in this area.I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go through like 25 M CCP connectors, click off everywhere and then like half of them don't let me do the things anyway. So Cloud and Chrome is quite powerful because we can just talk to the cloud and Chrome sub agent and that will just do things for you.swyx: Yeah, so, so one example right in MCPI, honestly, I think that the state of MCP is kind of, kind of.Really hard to integrate. Um, I need to, I needed to add, uh, Figma MCP to the coding agent that I use.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh, and, but I didn't wanna read the docs, so I just had caught to it. And it's, it's great at reading docs and the same, same way I had to set up like a Google Cloud, um, account for some project I was working on and get some API keys somewhere.And Google Cloud is famously super hard to navigate, so I just didn't wanna deal with any of it. I just used Claude CoworkFelix: within the first week of developing on Core. This happened very, very quickly. Um, I caught myself by starting to use cowork for coding tasks, which is not ostensibly what we built it for, right?We don't need to. But I found myself, um, I found myself like on our internal, internal tool that we have for, to collect crashes and just like debugging information and I found myself sort like picking out the ones that I think we can easily fix versus the ones that might be like kernel corruption or something else on the operating system.And I found myself sort of picking these out and then just telling Clark, go fix this bug. I was like, what am I doing here? Go one level up, tell a cowork, I want you to go to all these crash tools. I want you to find all the bugs that you think are fixable and not like an operating system crash. And then I want you to tell another cloud to like fix all of that.Um, and that's, that's, that's sort of another cloud,swyx: just so it can spin up another instance or,Felix: uh, it, currently what I do is, um, and this is a bit of a hack, but I tell it to use clockwork remote to which website itself? Yeah, that's interesting. So you basically take, if you, if you imagine like a dashboard with like 20 bucks, you, this is remote control or clock or remote, or, sorry, I just wanted to confirm what, the way I'm using it is.I have cowork running and I'm telling cowork, here's where I normally go every morning to find the latest bugs. Go read the entire bug list, separate out which ones are fixable, which ones are, are fixable, and then for the fixable ones, four is this almost loop. For each bug, write a markdown file with a prompt.And then for each markdown v, that is a prompt. Start of a cloud set. So natively Claude Code hasswyx: this concept of subagents. Mm-hmm. And this is basically a subagent, but you're not using the subagent functionality.Felix: I'm not using the subagent functionality. And the reason I'm not is because I'm firing that off as a Claude Code remoteswyx: task.Felix: Yes. That's kind of nice. ‘cause then I can just fire it off. I can go to my next meeting and in Claude Code remote. Now the work is happening.swyx: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you see like you're already starting to use the cloud over your local machine. And I think this is one of those things where like. Shouldn't just everything just be cloud first, right?Felix: Ah, this is such a good group. I'm like solely bad about this. I have so many thoughts about that. Okay. So I generally believe that Silicon Valley overall is undervaluing the local computer. And my default argument for that is always how come we're all using MacBooks and not like an iPad or a Chromebook?Um, that there is like still value in, in having a local machine. And now when I think about Clot, it's this entity that is supposed to be very useful to you, like it tremendously useful to you. I think that entity needs to have access to all the same tools you have access to. Otherwise it's gonna be hamstrung in like all these complex ways.And there's, there's sort of two approaches we could take. We could say, okay, we're gonna like one by one chip away at everything that is at your computer and move it into the cloud. That's, that's one way to do it. Um, and I think other products have taken that path. I personally, this is a very personal opinion, but I personally, for the amount of tools that I use.Just don't have the patience to give another tool like permissions to every single thing and keep those permissions up to date. The second thing that I'm still grappling with, and I don't have a good answer for anyone just yet, but the second thing I'm still grappling with is what does it look like for someone to slurp up your entire work and put that in the cloud?Like if I, just as an example, like if you could click a button and it just clone your entire computer into the cloud, is that something that you would want? I'm not totally convinced yet that all everyone will. Mm-hmm. And that is sort of like upstream of all the technical issues we're gonna have. ‘cause like in general, I think the world is not ready for this kind of stuff.Like, I'll give you one quick example that would probably be very easy for us. So as a desktop app, we in theory with your permission, can do a lot of things on your computer, including reading your Chrome cookies. If we really want to do right, we could take your Chrome cookies, you would have to decrypt them for us.We could put those on the cloud if we really felt like it. Pretty easy solution. That would be super cool. We could just be like, oh, we can do all your tasks in the cloud now. Um, a lot of websites, thanks, include it. If, if they see the same authentication from like two different locations, we'll just lock down your account and now you have to go to the branch and be like, okay, I, I'm here with my passport.You actually know that. Wow. Yeah. As tired as well are of the term agent for the age agent future, I think there's a lot of stuff that sort of slowly needs to catch up and until that's the case, the way I, as someone's working on clock and make Cloud most effective is to like put it where you are working.swyx: Anything else? I thought with our mental model, so like, basically like, uh, part of me also just want, like the more I understand how it works, the more I can use it to its full potential. Right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And so what I'm get hearing from you is you told me to delete the planning thing. You're not doing anything special on, on the, that's only exclusive to Qua cowork.Felix: We have some tricks for this sort of like change week over week. We eval cowork maybe against different use cases than he would evil clock code, right? If you think about it this way. Okay, so like clock code is our eval clock cowork. Yeah. So clock code is like quite optimized for coding tasks and we mostly value it whether or not we're getting better or worse depending on how good it is at like a typical suite job.And Clark Cowork on the other hand, we evaluate more against typical knowledge work, the kind of stuff he would find in finance or in like maybe a, like in like a legal office. Um, my personal use case is always like managing my things, like managing my personal mortgage or something like that, right? Or like wealth planning for me and my family.Those are the kinds of use cases we eval, clock cowork on. And what you might be picking up on is like the subtle changes we make to the system. Prompt what we put in the system, prompt how we steer, clot with the tools we give it. Um, like either it'd be better in one or the other direction and whether there's a trade off, try us exist a lot.CLO code will be better of a code and Claude Cowork will be better. For non-coding tasks, will those gaps still exist in the next three generations of models? It's like a little unclear to me though.swyx: Yeah,Felix: because right now these like hyper optimizations we make, I'm not sure for how long they're still be relevant.swyx: I think what I was referring to was also, it, it just, uh, it qualitatively felt different when I probably, it's just all prompting and I'm reading too much into it, but like the, the fact that it comes out with like a nine step plan, I can edit the plan and give feedback and, and, and see it execute the plan.Yeah. It felt more long range than in Claude Code, but maybe that already existed in Claude Code and you just build a nicer UI for it.Felix: It's kind of both. Um, like if the Clark Code people who build the planning functionalities would city, they probably say yes, we have all of those things in Clark code and they do.Um, I think people tend to give cowork. Tasks that are maybe of longer time horizon, I thought isswyx: so long. Yeah.Felix: That's like one thing, right? It's just like that the, the chunk of work tends to be maybe a little bigger. And then the second thing is that because the work, when it gets longer, it gets a little bit more ambiguous.We do tell co-work to make heavy use of the planning tool or to make heavy use of the ask user question tool, right? We do want it to come up with like. Different scenarios of, okay, tease out what the user actually wants. Don't go off to work for like four hours and then come back with the wrong thing.And you're probably picking up on that.swyx: Yeah.Felix: Um, I wish I could tell you I like built this magical thing and it's like, there's some secret sauce,swyx: but No, no, no. I mean, it's, it's just clarity is good that, you know, engineers just want to know. Yeah. They can, they can plan around it. And then I think also for me, um, I am realizing I have to switch to my, my other machine because this is a new machine that doesn't have my session.But, uh, yeah, the, the, the planning is really important for, for me to like approve or like to see whether it's like, it's right. The ask is, the question is so beautifully presented. I mean, it also, it also available in like cursor and, and in Claude Code. But like, I, I think like it's so nice to see that it, like it's kind of for me like to understand that it gets me, it gets what I want to do.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Felix: It probably very hardswyx: just on the topical evals. Mm-hmm. When you say eval, I think people are very vague about what it means. Is it just like vibe testing or do you have like automated programmatic evals of Claude Cowork?Felix: When we say eval, uh, what we really mean is that we essentially take the entire transcript, including all the tools that clot has available ultimately to it, and we then measure what are the outputs, depending on what we tweak, right?So we do run that a lot. We use that in training. Um, we use that in, in like, if you sort of separate out post training from like the scaffolding around it. Cowork sort of exists in the scaffolding space, but obviously we also train on it a little bit. Um, so when we say eval, we mean given the certain transcript, what do the outputs look like?Including the file outputs as well as like the actual token outputs, like the ones that you see in the chat window.Alessio: I'm curious, um, how much of the failure modes are the model intelligence versus like the usage of the end tool to put the intelligence in? Like the well planning is like a good example, right?It's like one thing is to come up with a plan. The other thing is like make a nice spreadsheet. Yeah. That kind of runs you through the plan. Like how have you seen that? Well,Felix: the thing that I grapple with a lot is that whatever scaffolding you come up with, I think we still have a bit of sort of like model overhang where the model is dramatically more capable than right.Users end up using it for. And I think part of that is that we're just not getting the model all the tools to do all the things that's theory capable of, right? There's like one thing, um, however, whenever you do build the scaffolding, I'm sort of wondering at what point, at what point will that scaffolding go away and like how much you invest in figuring out what the right scaffolding is.It's kind of up to, it's a little bit of a bet. And one thing that I as an NJ quite enjoy is that like working in philanthropic and working at a frontier lab, I maybe have a little bit more insight into what's coming, coming down the chute in terms of like, what's the next model, what is the model capable of?What is good at, what is it bad at? And I'm, I'm increasingly wondering, is the right thing for us to like really invest too much in sort of these like scaffolding corrections where the model might otherwise not misbehave, but just not do the thing that you want?Alessio: Yeah.Felix: Or is it to just like give it as many capabilities as possible, try to make those safe so there's the worst case scenarios, likeno status might be otherwise.And then just simply wait a second for the next model drop. I'm personally, currently more leaning into the ladder. I think we're gonna see a lot of like applications and companies that do very impressive things with ai that in the short term might seem very effective ‘cause they're very specialized to individual use cases.But I think once models get better generalization and get better at like those specific use cases without being super guided on those, I'm not sure how long that's gonna stick around. And you can kind of, kind of already see this in like skills and NCP servers, right? Mm-hmm. We've, we've already seen sort of this like slow shift from MCP service to skills.And like, maybe a good example is Barry who made skills. He was initially hacking on something that honestly looked a lot, looked, looked a lot like what Cowork does today. It was sort of thinking about what if cowork, but for like people who don't wanna build code. Mm-hmm. And, um, he too did that as a prototype inside the desktop app.One of the first use cases we thought of were, okay, what, what are like coding like use cases that could really benefit from graphical interfaces and like from being a little separated from the actual underlying code. And everyone comes with the same answers. Data analysis,Alessio: right?Felix: Yeah. Or saying how many users do we have today?How many, like, it's always data analysis. And I think the thing that ultimately led to skills is that we wanted to connect this little prototype to our data warehouse and. The team very quickly discovered that like instead of building a custom tool for the thing to talk our data warehouse, they just like meet and embarked on follow like mm-hmm.Dear Claude, if you want to get data, here's the end point. Here's what the API looks like. You'll figure it out.swyx: Ah.Felix: And then it be hand over control. Yeah, yeah. Also just like maybe go one step up in the layer of abstractions, right. Just, yeah. Instead of, instead of telling the thing, here's ACL I, please call the CLI, or here's an MCP.Please call this ECT shape. Just like this is the end point. If you wanna know something, if you post here, maybe you can do post sql. It's gonna be okay. And that ended up being so effective that they started trying the same pattern of like just giving the model a markdown file that describes whatever it needs to do.That the whole thing eventually became skills and we're like. We should package this up. This is a good idea.swyx: Yeah. Um, we've had Barry Mahesh, uh, on, on our conference and uh, he's uh, definitely got a good idea there.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I wanted to show you the, how I've been using Claude Cowork.Felix: Uh, this is was my favorite part.swyx: This is this. So this is like me, uh, this is how we run the Discord. Uh, we literally, uh, at first I didn't trust Cloud Core. This was my very first usage.Felix: Okay.swyx: Right. So then I was like, okay, I will just try to manually download from Zoom all my recordings and upload it to YouTube. Yeah. Because this is a very laborious process.I got a click, click, click YouTube, um, isn't super user friendly. Uh, and it just did it. And then I was like, actually, you know, even the download from Zoom part, I should also. Put into Claude Cowork, and then I did it right. Here's a bunch of, and it starts compacting here, and it, and it, it starts to even be able to do things like look through the individual frames of the video to name the video so I can upload it auto automatically.Oh, that is, and this replaces my job as a YouTuber. We will forever appreciate your creative Yes. You know, and so that's great. Uh, but then by the way, it compacts and makes, makes like a new thing, right? So I, I don't, I don't have the initial, initial thing, but then I asked it to make its own skills so that it, so that something that's repetitive and one-off and human guided becomes more automated and I can use the skills independently and reuse them.Uh, and it obviously you can write skills and that goes into context and skills at the bottom here, which is, which is so nice. Um, so I have all these skills that, that I now sort of do on a weekly basis. Uh, I know you've released scheduled Coworks, which I haven't done yet, butFelix: course I should try them. I, I think this is like so wonderful and fun for me to see because.One thing that is very fun for me about skills in particular is that they're so easy to make. Like anyone can make a skill, like a text message, could be a skill, and they can be so hyper personalized to you. And this is like sort of the subtraction layer, right? Like, um, I, I'm just guessing, but I assume, heck, you are very good at your job.You're probably given this thing some guidance about how to do it, right? I,swyx: I just said, wrap everything up into, into a skill, right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And then, uh, and then I was like, actually, sometimes I might need to break, uh, things apart because some parts fail or some parts might be needed in individually. So I told it to split one skill into three skills.So it's like a skill splitting thing, and then there's like a parent skill that just orchestrates all of them if I want to use that. You know, like, um, I think that's, that's like really good. Uh, and, and, uh, there's, there's one more part, which is the, uh, Google Chrome thing that I told you about.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Where I'm like, okay, you know, what's better than uploading, using Claude Coworks to YouTube?Like actually. Looking at the docs to like programmatically upload to YouTube and then putting that in a skill. And I've never done that before. I don't want to deal with Google Cloud. Yeah. So Claude Cowork does it for me.Felix: That is really cool.swyx: So, so I, I just, I don't care. I just, like, I do a thing. I don't, it doesn't really matter.Felix: That is really cool. And then you've, I assume paired the skill just with the script that it's built.swyx: Yeah, no, I just update, update the skills.Felix: Oh, that is beautiful. Yeah. That's wonderful.swyx: It's kind of like a skill, like, uh, uh, basically I think like the way that people ease into Claude Cowork is like take a knowledge work task that you would normally be clicking around for and then, uh, try to turn, turn that, and then you do the, okay, well what if you went further?Okay. And then when, if you went further, when, if you, and it sort of expand the scope of cowork as you gain trust with it and, and also teach it how to replace you.Felix: Yeah. It's like a little bit like playing factorial, but for your own life. Uh, like you say, you start really small.swyx: Yeah.Felix: You start automating something really tiny and like.Once it clicks, you keep adding onto this like automation empire. Just like make your life easier and easier. My favorite skill has been, um, every single morning Kohlberg starts looking at my calendar and make sure that there's conflicts because people tend to schedule a lot of meetings, sometimes last minute, sometimes miss it soft and painful.And a lot of products have existed like that A lot. I've written in the custom prompt there. I haven't made it a skill, um, honestly should.swyx: Yeah.Felix: But I've given it like pretty clear instructions about okay, here are some people, if they book over other meetings, I'm probably gonna go to their meeting. Like if Dario schedules a meeting.swyx: Right.Felix: Not try to reschedule down. Right. Um, and I think there's some other rules in there about like what kind of meetings I care more about what kind of meetings I care less about. What is okay to like, maybe pun like when I want to be, when I want to be working, when I don't want to be working. And it's those really small things that I can think kind of click with people.Right. When we launch co-work, I think one of the US races that went most viral on Twitter. X was clean up your desktop, which is stuff, because silly, that's such a smart thing, right? Like you don't need to model to clean up your desktop. Not really. Um,swyx: like this, like clean up my desktop.Felix: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.swyx: I need to, I need to choose my desktop, right? I guess give it access to my desktop.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Okay. Uh, okay. This is very scary. Oh, we'll do it.Alessio: I did, I did it with my downloads folder. It was like, you have so many term sheets and there's like eight copies of your rental lease for your office. I was like, all right.Like, don't yell at me.Felix: It's like, it's not such a small task. And then like, I, I would never go out there and normally otherwise and tell people I've pulled a product. It can organize your folder. Right. Um, because it feels small. But I think to your point like,swyx: oh, here's, here's the, here's the ask user questions.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh,Felix: beautiful. Right. Elite obvious junk. You probably shouldn't click that.Alessio: No.Felix: If he's not done right.swyx: As long as it's reversible, I don'tAlessio: make up blend to,swyx: yeah. Uh, yeah. No, I, I have a, I have a typical, everything is super messy folder. So, yes. I think this, this is super helpful. So this is a pretty simple task.Mm-hmm. But I've, okay, here it is. Right. Here's the progress. I don't see this in, that's why I'm like, this gotta be something different than, uh, than Claude Code, because I'm like, weFelix: do. Yeah. That's, we do system prompt that. We're like, all right. We want you to think about like, this task Yeah. Methodology.Yeah.swyx: And then I can, I can, I can do like little suggestions for, for, for these things. It's beautiful. Look at this. I, I can, I can like say like, oh, don't do that. Don't do this. It's amazing.Felix: I'm so happy. You like it. Um, I mean, the other way around, like we're part of the Clark core team, if you would like this in Clark COVID.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so yeah, I mean, uh, this is really good. Obviously I, I'm like kind of raving about it. Uh, you know, I have other things like sign up for pg e so if you can do phone calls for me, that'd be great. Um, I, I do, peopleFelix: have done that. Obviously you can't do that natively, but people have done that with like, various other providers.swyx: Yeah. Uh, and then this is like signing up for the Figma MCP. Um, I, I really am trying to do like everything, um, data analysis as well. I do think, um, oh, design to code, uh, very, very good. Right? So like, here's a Figma file, take it. And then this is where like a lot of other tasks is like knowledge work, like replace my manual clicking, but this is no, I would normally use Claude Code or uh, Claude Code for this, but because I perceive that you have better Chrome integrationFelix: mm-hmm.swyx: I, I think you can actually do a better job of this. And I, this, this is one shot at my, uh, conference website.Felix: That's pretty cool. Like at some point I would love to like, hear how you feel about code. In the desktop apps, which is like I never use, which is the, the same team. Same team.swyx: So I use the call code in terminal, which I, I perceive to be the default way of cloud coding.Felix: So one thing this has,swyx: sorry, I'm just like, I'm notFelix: here, I'm not here. All products. Can I talk about other stuff? Like I, I'm not sure if people out there wanna like hear me advertise my stuff for like an hour. Please do that. Um, this thing is like a builtin browser, which is a thing a lot of products have said.Yeah, it's a builtin browser. And I think giving cloud eyes into like what you're actually working on makes it so much more effective. And that's probably what you've seen in cohort because it can see Chrome, it can like debug the dom, it can like see things. Um, that does make it more powerful.swyx: Yeah. So, so I think, uh, my mental model was kind broken.‘cause I only use this cowork because I thought it had a, a browser thing in it. But I understand that the Claude Code app. The app version of Claude Code does have a built-in browser. I've seen, I've seen this preview thing.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I just, I've never used it.Felix: But in the end, in the end, you sort of have it by hard.Yeah. You basically get the same thing. Right? Like the, the, the additional skill that you're describing is chart is better if we can see what it's working on. Right. That's, that's sort of like the summary here and like whether it's using your Chromeswyx: Yeah.Felix: Or it's just like making up its own little like browser.It doesn't really make a big difference because either way it's gonna see what it's working on and that just makes it much better. And then you don't have to run QA for your cloud.swyx: Why doesn't it pick up my existing Claude Code sessions? ‘cause I, I mean, obviously I've used Claude Code, but Excellent question.Um, don't have a good answer other than like, we're honest. Just haven't Yeah. This is what the Open AI team does. Okay. Uh, cool. I I I don't have other, like, I, I just, I, I do wanna expand people's minds and also maybe show people if they haven't really done it, but like, I, I think it's very interesting how I sometimes use this more than I use, I mean, I use dia, right?Yeah. Um, I, and I use, uh, I've used like all the other agentic browsers and philanthropic didn't have to build an agentic browser because you just had Claude Cowork and that's enough.Felix: Yeah. I also think like maybe integrating with number of excellent browsers out there, it's like currently on my personal priority list, a little higher than like trying to rebuild a browser from scratch.Yeah. You know, never say never, but I think going back to this idea of like, we wanna plug this into an entire existing workflow, I think our goal is actually to not replace any of the applications we have in your computer. But instead of like, work really well within a new workflow,Alessio: make the new one. Yeah.Are, it seems that nowadays, especially on the browser, most of the innovation is like user ergonomics. It's not really like the underlying browser engine. So I feel like to call it, it doesn't really matter if it's like the, uh, or Chrome or Alice, whatever.Felix: Yeah. We wanna, we wanna meet you wherever you are.Which is like, like obviously I would say that, but it's also just generally true because I don't wanna shrink my potential user base artificially by saying, okay, like, I'm gonna start building for the people who are willing to switch browsers.Alessio: Right.Felix: That's such a, like, you know, like many lawsuits have been filed over who gets to review the browser and like a lot of money has switched hands over the question of like, which browser is default and which search engine is default within the browser.Um, I just wanna build for, yeah, I wanna build for swyx essentially. Like, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna build for people who have a number of annoying tasks that they feel like. Maybe clock could do it. Could do it for them.Alessio: Yeah. What do you think about skills portability? I think there's been one thing, I use another thing called zo, which is kinda like a cloud computer plus agent.And I have a skill to add visitors to the office. Yeah. So whenever somebody has to come in after hours, they need to check in downstairs. Um, but I wanna like text the thing, so it doesn't really work in, in cowork, but now that skill is in the zone harness and it's not in my cowork thing. And then if I make a change, it's gotta, I gotta sync them.How do you see that going? Like I see memory as like. Cloud personal, kinda like, I don't necessarily want my memories to be cross thing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: But I do want my skills to be cross agent that I use. I think with MTPs, people do the same thing. It's like, oh, Mt. P Gateway. Mt P registry. I don't really know if that's like a business.So I'm curious like if you've had any thoughts in the area.Felix: I think for me, this is sort of where I go back to the really basic primitives for our skills are file-based instead of like this complicated thing that exists inside a place somewhere that is like super proprietary. I'm really leaning into the idea of like, it's all just files and vultures, and that makes it very portable on its own.Right. We do have skills as part of this container format, which was just called plugins.Alessio: Mm-hmm.Felix: And plugins are available both for Claude Code and Claude Code work the same format, and you can install plugins. This works in cowork today. You can basically say, I'm gonna add a whole, like just a GitHub repo as a.Skills marketplace or like a plugin marketplace. And that's how we're doing portability. I think we have a lot of room left to grow in. How do we make it easy for people to know that they can write skills? How do we make it easy for them to just like, share a skill with you? Because obviously all the words I just said, right?Like I'm losing most of the knowledge worker base out there, right. And start by saying, oh, you can connect to GitHub repo. It's not exactly how most people will end up working in like a general knowledge worker space. Um, but I think there's something there. And another thing that's there that I think has not really been properly explored is the, the, the combination of which part of the skill is very portable and then which part of the skill is like very personal to you.Right. And I think that's something we haven't really solved as an industry. Hmm.swyx: It's like, which, how you wanna introduce more structure to the skill or have always have like. Public skill, private skill, you know, pair. Yeah, yeah. Kind of. I think there'sFelix: like a, like the easiest way to do this, which is we do like use string interpolation or something.Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Insert username here, insert like phone number, insert, like known folder, locations, that kind of stuff. Um, that's probably clunky. That's why we haven't built it. Um, but I do think someone is going to come up with like an interesting way to keep everything we like about skills. The portability is just a file, it's just marked down.It's just text, honestly. Right. Like a text file words. The complete lack of structure, which means you don't need any kind of tutorial to write a skill. Just like explain it to Claude the way he would explain it to me and Claude will probably get it before I work. Mm-hmm. Right? You're just like, for booking a flight, tell Claude how to book a flight the same way we tell him somewhere.I just started working here today. But combine that with a very like, personal thing. Um, maybe we'll stick with a booking a flight example. I don't actually think. AI should be booking flights. I think the tools we have is yes.swyx: Yeah. Finally, somebody says it. It's the default demo that everyone's making.Felix: I'mswyx: like, I even against like booking demos, it is not a good showcase.Felix: Yeah. I'm like, I just wanna book my flight myself. But, um, I think there's a lot of things that have a personal and a non-personal component and that's maybe why people reach for flight booking because some things are very universal. Yeah. Super flight is usually better, right? Like few people try to book the most expensive flight.And then some things are quite personal about like what times you prefer, which seat you prefer, which airports you prefer. Combining that and like a skill format that is actually portable, compatible, easy to understand for people. I think that would be very exciting. We just haven't figured it out yet.Alessio: Yeah, I think the text part every, I think everybody by now has some sort of like cloud file thing. Either Dropbox, Google Drive, whatever. So it feels like in a way it should basically like sim link. My skills into all my agent harnesses. Yeah. Just keep those ing like we have internally this like valuable tokens repo, which is like all the commands sub agents.It's good. Uh, and then I build like a TUI where you can start it and be like, you know, install this command and this three sub agents into this agent in this folder and just copy paste this. It doesn't do anything. It literally cp the file into that. But I feel like there should be something similar where like whenever I go into a new thing, it's like, hey, here's like the link to exactly the cloud folder and just bring down these skills into this.Yeah. Like today it doesn't quite work like that. Like if I install a new agent, I cannot, I have to like copy paste all the skills and I don't even know where they are.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: That's like the big problem. It's like where do I find them?Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Um, so I'm curious like in the future like that, that almost feels like my personal productivity thing will be my skills.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Is not really the product that I use. Everybody has access to the same product. But today there's, that just looks like copy pasting ME files, IFelix: think so many things I, I really like thinking about agents and LLMs just as like another coworker. So many attempts have made to build documentation companies that are like, oh, we're gonna solve oil documentation problems.Um, I myself, like spend a little bit of time working in notion, right? I'm like deeply familiar with the concept of let's get everyone on the same page. Mm-hmm. Right? And what you're basically saying here is you want all your agents to be on the same page about your preferences, about the skills, about the way they ought to work and like how they ought to execute.And I'm not sure what the right thing is going to be if it's going to be some, some company that can say, all right, we're as an independent body, we're not trying to like, push into any particular product. It's our job to be like the skill authority, and we provide, I don't know, we're gonna be the Dropbox of skills and we can just sim link us into all the products we want to use.I'm not sure that's gonna be viable business, but as, as an idea, it would be cool.Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think so many things are just going away as businesses. It's like, how am I supposed to do it? I'm not even asking somebody to make a product about it. Like yeah. I wanna personally know. And there's things like you said, it's like you almost wanna skill and then interpolate it between personal and work.So if I'm booking a fly for work, it's different than I'm booking a flight personally.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: In some ways, yeah. But like a lot of the scaffolding is the same, you know? Cool.Felix: I mean, as an engineer I will tell you like, you know, technic a person to technic a person. I will just be like siblings.Alessio: Well that's what, that's what I do.We call that MD and agents that MD's just the same how sim length. And so it is like, that works, but it feels like, yeah, I don't know. MaybeFelix: you can always go one, you can always tell cowork problem and then cowork will solve it for you. Just make the siblings. That's like one way to do it.Alessio: That's true.That's true. All right. Everything is called cowork.Felix: Uh, potentially spicy. Question for both of you.swyx: Uh, which of these industries will go away?Alessio: Okay, so what Felix was saying before is interesting. There's busy like. The short term pressure of like, we need to turn these tokens into valuable things, which is I should build the last mile product that harness the model.And then there's the question of like, long term, which ones are gonna still be valuable? And I think you're kind of seeing this today with like, uh, you know, the coding space in a way is kind of like everybody's moving up and up in stack because you need more than just turning tokens into code. I think search, like enterprise search is kind of saying the same thing.Like with G Clean and like all these different companies is like, at the end of the day, if Cowork is the one doing all the work, the search itself is like such a small part that like, I don't know if I'm really gonna pay that much money just to do search. It's almost like everything is like a cowork vertical.So like how much can cowork first party support?swyx: Mm-hmm.Alessio: And how much can it not? I think for a lot of these things, the planning thing that you were showing do Which one? The planning. The planning.swyx: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.Alessio: That's one thing where like most of the value that these agents provide is like they're better at planning for specific tasks.Yeah. And have better tools for it.swyx: Yeah.Alessio: But I think the models are now moving in that direction and they have the right harnesses and they're on your computer. So for me it's almost like if for the end customer trusts your startup to be the provider of that task result, then I think that works. This is, uh, something that, this is a shortswyx: spike that we're, we're working on.Uh, yeah.Felix: I think, look, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this, like I don't think I'm the best person to like actually estimate which industry is going to be hit the hardest. But I do think that at philanthropic as a group of people, we're deeply worried about the impact. That the tools are going to have on the labor market, especially for like junior employees that, because I think, I think it's only honest to say that when we talk about automating a lot away, a lot of the work that we personally find annoying that we maybe think's not the best use of our time.In a lot of industries, that kind of work would've been given to a junior entry level employee. Yeah. Right. And I think it's, it's only, it's only right to be really worried about that and like worry what that's going to do in particular to people like enter the shop market.Alessio: Mm-hmm. I have a solution for that.Which you make them, you create simulative jobs for them.Felix: Okay.Alessio: So this is, this is like half joke, half true. So if you think about software engineering, when you're like a junior engineer, you work like 1, 2, 3 years. And in those three years there's like maybe like a handful of moments where like you really learn something.And then a bunch of other days where like you're not really progressing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: I think now we can use AI and these models to actually like shortcut these careers and almost like simulate the early years of your work and like just make them like super dense and like these learnings, it's like, hey, we're working on this feature, which is like a distributed system and you need to learn this thing that might take three months at a company.And so you take three months here, it's like we're just simulating the whole thing. It's actually not a real thing. And in one week we kind of speed run through the whole thing and you kind of learn your lesson from there. And we kind of repeat that in like one year. You basically get like three years worth of like projects and experience.Yeah. I think it's harder for like things like sales or for things like, you know, marketing because you don't really have a way to get the feedback loop. But I think a lot of it, it sounds kind of silly, it's like you're making the new effect job, but it's almost like you go to college, right? People pay to learn how to do it, and this might feel similar where it's like, hey, we have the.Jane Street Simulator is like, you wanna come work at Jane Street? We'll just put you in the simulator for like three months.Felix: Wow.Alessio: And you'll come out of it. It's like, you know, I'm ready.Felix: So there, there is an aspect here. I'm not an expert enough to like actually know what, what is going to happen to marketing or legal or finance, right?Like, I don't work in those jobs and I, I don't think I should talk about them, but I am an engineer and I think I have a pretty good idea of what engineering is like. And I think one thing we're sort of seeing is that as a company and also as, as the public, we're like deeply worried about entry level, but we're also seeing more senior engineers accelerate it.If like they're more productive. They, they actually increase the value they provide. And the thing that I'm thinking about a lot is the fact that even before all of this happened, um, I've always had a lot of respect for the University of Waterloo and the, the new grads that have joined my teams as from coming from the University of Waterloo always felt like.More ready than new grads will like literally spend their entire time at the university regardless of how good, but never actually had to work inside an environment where you have to ship things that eventually will be used by users. And I'm, I'm, I'm German. I like initially went to German University and I think the, the, the like information systems programs, there tend to be very theoretical, right?Like I often give people the example of like trying

In this episode of Take-Away with Sam Oches, Sam talks with Tom Cortese, CEO of Counter Service, an upscale sandwich concept with four New York City locations. In 2012 Tom cofounded Peloton, a brand that disrupted the fitness industry and has since become a mainstream sensation. His business partner in Counter Service is Chipotle founder Steve Ells, who in 2024 launched a robot-powered plant-based concept called Kernel before quickly pivoting to sandwiches when that automated model failed to catch on in a big way with consumers. Now Steve and Tom are using a more refined technology strategy — specifically a proprietary restaurant management system that helps them create efficiencies with labor and supply chain — to reimagine what is possible in a scalable sandwich concept. Tom joined the podcast to talk about why the restaurant industry is ripe for disruption today, the role that technology should play in that disruption, and why he thinks Counter Service could become a national sensation just like his previous company. In this conversation, you'll find out why:When innovating, your first shot isn't as important as consistent follow-throughIncredibly niche concepts aren't built for scaleHospitality is a quintessential part of building a scalable business Technology unlocks the potential of high-quality ingredientsDisruptive restaurant concepts discover how to create a range of great dishes with a small number of repeatable, delicious recipes Have feedback or ideas for Take-Away? Email Sam at sam.oches@informa.com.

Turbopuffer came out of a reading app.In 2022, Simon was helping his friends at Readwise scale their infra for a highly requested feature: article recommendations and semantic search. Readwise was paying ~$5k/month for their relational database and vector search would cost ~$20k/month making the feature too expensive to ship. In 2023 after mulling over the problem from Readwise, Simon decided he wanted to “build a search engine” which became Turbopuffer.We discuss:• Simon's path: Denmark → Shopify infra for nearly a decade → “angel engineering” across startups like Readwise, Replicate, and Causal → turbopuffer almost accidentally becoming a company • The Readwise origin story: building an early recommendation engine right after the ChatGPT moment, seeing it work, then realizing it would cost ~$30k/month for a company spending ~$5k/month total on infra and getting obsessed with fixing that cost structure • Why turbopuffer is “a search engine for unstructured data”: Simon's belief that models can learn to reason, but can't compress the world's knowledge into a few terabytes of weights, so they need to connect to systems that hold truth in full fidelity • The three ingredients for building a great database company: a new workload, a new storage architecture, and the ability to eventually support every query plan customers will want on their data • The architecture bet behind turbopuffer: going all in on object storage and NVMe, avoiding a traditional consensus layer, and building around the cloud primitives that only became possible in the last few years • Why Simon hated operating Elasticsearch at Shopify: years of painful on-call experience shaped his obsession with simplicity, performance, and eliminating state spread across multiple systems • The Cursor story: launching turbopuffer as a scrappy side project, getting an email from Cursor the next day, flying out after a 4am call, and helping cut Cursor's costs by 95% while fixing their per-user economics • The Notion story: buying dark fiber, tuning TCP windows, and eating cross-cloud costs because Simon refused to compromise on architecture just to close a deal faster • Why AI changes the build-vs-buy equation: it's less about whether a company can build search infra internally, and more about whether they have time especially if an external team can feel like an extension of their own • Why RAG isn't dead: coding companies still rely heavily on search, and Simon sees hybrid retrieval semantic, text, regex, SQL-style patterns becoming more important, not less • How agentic workloads are changing search: the old pattern was one retrieval call up front; the new pattern is one agent firing many parallel queries at once, turning search into a highly concurrent tool call • Why turbopuffer is reducing query pricing: agentic systems are dramatically increasing query volume, and Simon expects retrieval infra to adapt to huge bursts of concurrent search rather than a small number of carefully chosen calls • The philosophy of “playing with open cards”: Simon's habit of being radically honest with investors, including telling Lachy Groom he'd return the money if turbopuffer didn't hit PMF by year-end • The “P99 engineer”: Simon's framework for building a talent-dense company, rejecting by default unless someone on the team feels strongly enough to fight for the candidate —Simon Hørup Eskildsen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sirupsen• X: https://x.com/Sirupsen• https://sirupsen.com/aboutturbopuffer• https://turbopuffer.com/Full Video PodTimestamps00:00:00 The PMF promise to Lachy Groom00:00:25 Intro and Simon's background00:02:19 What turbopuffer actually is00:06:26 Shopify, Elasticsearch, and the pain behind the company00:10:07 The Readwise experiment that sparked turbopuffer00:12:00 The insight Simon couldn't stop thinking about00:17:00 S3 consistency, NVMe, and the architecture bet00:20:12 The Notion story: latency, dark fiber, and conviction00:25:03 Build vs. buy in the age of AI00:26:00 The Cursor story: early launch to breakout customer00:29:00 Why code search still matters00:32:00 Search in the age of agents00:34:22 Pricing turbopuffer in the AI era00:38:17 Why Simon chose Lachy Groom00:41:28 Becoming a founder on purpose00:44:00 The “P99 engineer” philosophy00:49:30 Bending software to your will00:51:13 The future of turbopuffer00:57:05 Simon's tea obsession00:59:03 Tea kits, X Live, and P99 LiveTranscriptSimon Hørup Eskildsen: I don't think I've said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like, local Lockie. Like if this doesn't have PMF by the end of the year, like we'll just like return all the money to you. But it's just like, I don't really, we, Justine and I don't wanna work on this unless it's really working.So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we're really gonna go for it. We're gonna hire a bunch of people. We're just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don't know how to play a game, I just play with open cards. Lockey was the only person that didn't, that didn't freak out. He was like, I've never heard anyone say that before.Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Leading Space podcast. This is Celesio Pando, Colonel Laz, and I'm joined by Swix, editor of Leading Space.swyx: Hello. Hello, uh, we're still, uh, recording in the Ker studio for the first time. Very excited. And today we are joined by Simon Eski. Of Turbo Farer welcome.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Thank you so much for having me.swyx: Turbo Farer has like really gone on a huge tear, and I, I do have to mention that like you're one of, you're not my newest member of the Danish AHU Mafia, where like there's a lot of legendary programmers that have come out of it, like, uh, beyond Trotro, Rasmus, lado Berg and the V eight team and, and Google Maps team.Uh, you're mostly a Canadian now, but isn't that interesting? There's so many, so much like strong Danish presence.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I was writing a post, um, not that long ago about sort of the influences. So I grew up in Denmark, right? I left, I left when, when I was 18 to go to Canada to, to work at Shopify. Um, and so I, like, I've, I would still say that I feel more Danish than, than Canadian.This is also the weird accent. I can't say th because it, this is like, I don't, you know, my wife is also Canadian, um, and I think. I think like one of the things in, in Denmark is just like, there's just such a ruthless pragmatism and there's also a big focus on just aesthetics. Like, they're like very, people really care about like where, what things look like.Um, and like Canada has a lot of attributes, US has, has a lot of attributes, but I think there's been lots of the great things to carry. I don't know what's in the water in Ahu though. Um, and I don't know that I could be considered part of the Mafi mafia quite yet, uh, compared to the phenomenal individuals we just mentioned.Barra OV is also, uh, Danish Canadian. Okay. Yeah. I don't know where he lives now, but, and he's the PHP.swyx: Yeah. And obviously Toby German, but moved to Canada as well. Yes. Like this is like import that, uh, that, that is an interesting, um, talent move.Alessio: I think. I would love to get from you. Definition of Turbo puffer, because I think you could be a Vector db, which is maybe a bad word now in some circles, you could be a search engine.It's like, let, let's just start there and then we'll maybe run through the history of how you got to this point.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. Yeah. So Turbo Puffer is at this point in time, a search engine, right? We do full text search and we do vector search, and that's really what we're specialized in. If you're trying to do much more than that, like then this might not be the right place yet, but Turbo Buffer is all about search.The other way that I think about it is that we can take all of the world's knowledge, all of the exabytes and exabytes of data that there is, and we can use those tokens to train a model, but we can't compress all of that into a few terabytes of weights, right? Compress into a few terabytes of weights, how to reason with the world, how to make sense of the knowledge.But we have to somehow connect it to something externally that actually holds that like in full fidelity and truth. Um, and that's the thing that we intend to become. Right? That's like a very holier than now kind of phrasing, right? But being the search engine for unstructured, unstructured data is the focus of turbo puffer at this point in time.Alessio: And let's break down. So people might say, well, didn't Elasticsearch already do this? And then some other people might say, is this search on my data, is this like closer to rag than to like a xr, like a public search thing? Like how, how do you segment like the different types of search?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The way that I generally think about this is like, there's a lot of database companies and I think if you wanna build a really big database company, sort of, you need a couple of ingredients to be in the air.We don't, which only happens roughly every 15 years. You need a new workload. You basically need the ambition that every single company on earth is gonna have data in your database. Multiple times you look at a company like Oracle, right? You will, like, I don't think you can find a company on earth with a digital presence that it not, doesn't somehow have some data in an Oracle database.Right? And I think at this point, that's also true for Snowflake and Databricks, right? 15 years later it's, or even more than that, there's not a company on earth that doesn't, in. Or directly is consuming Snowflake or, or Databricks or any of the big analytics databases. Um, and I think we're in that kind of moment now, right?I don't think you're gonna find a company over the next few years that doesn't directly or indirectly, um, have all their data available for, for search and connect it to ai. So you need that new workload, like you need something to be happening where there's a new workload that causes that to happen, and that new workload is connecting very large amounts of data to ai.The second thing you need. The second condition to build a big database company is that you need some new underlying change in the storage architecture that is not possible from the databases that have come before you. If you look at Snowflake and Databricks, right, commoditized, like massive fleet of HDDs, like that was not possible in it.It just wasn't in the air in the nineties, right? So you just didn't, we just didn't build these systems. S3 and and and so on was not around. And I think the architecture that is now possible that wasn't possible 15 years ago is to go all in on NVME SSDs. It requires a particular type of architecture for the database that.It's difficult to retrofit onto the databases that are already there, including the ones you just mentioned. The second thing is to go all in on OIC storage, more so than we could have done 15 years ago. Like we don't have a consensus layer, we don't really have anything. In fact, you could turn off all the servers that Turbo Buffer has, and we would not lose any data because we have all completely all in on OIC storage.And this means that our architecture is just so simple. So that's the second condition, right? First being a new workload. That means that every company on earth, either indirectly or directly, is using your database. Second being, there's some new storage architecture. That means that the, the companies that have come before you can do what you're doing.I think the third thing you need to do to build a big database company is that over time you have to implement more or less every Cory plan on the data. What that means is that you. You can't just get stuck in, like, this is the one thing that a database does. It has to be ever evolving because when someone has data in the database, they over time expect to be able to ask it more or less every question.So you have to do that to get the storage architecture to the limit of what, what it's capable of. Those are the three conditions.swyx: I just wanted to get a little bit of like the motivation, right? Like, so you left Shopify, you're like principal, engineer, infra guy. Um, you also head of kernel labs, uh, inside of Shopify, right?And then you consulted for read wise and that it kind of gave you that, that idea. I just wanted you to tell that story. Um, maybe I, you've told it before, but, uh, just introduce the, the. People to like the, the new workload, the sort of aha moment for turbo PufferSimon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. So yeah, I spent almost a decade at Shopify.I was on the infrastructure team, um, from the fairly, fairly early days around 2013. Um, at the time it felt like it was growing so quickly and everything, all the metrics were, you know, doubling year on year compared to the, what companies are contending with today. It's very cute in growth. I feel like lot some companies are seeing that month over month.Um, of course. Shopify compound has been compounding for a very long time now, but I spent a decade doing that and the majority of that was just make sure the site is up today and make sure it's up a year from now. And a lot of that was really just the, um, you know, uh, the Kardashians would drive very, very large amounts of, of data to, to uh, to Shopify as they were rotating through all the merch and building out their businesses.And we just needed to make sure we could handle that. Right. And sometimes these were events, a million requests per second. And so, you know, we, we had our own data centers back in the day and we were moving to the cloud and there was so much sharding work and all of that that we were doing. So I spent a decade just scaling databases ‘cause that's fundamentally what's the most difficult thing to scale about these sites.The database that was the most difficult for me to scale during that time, and that was the most aggravating to be on call for, was elastic search. It was very, very difficult to deal with. And I saw a lot of projects that were just being held back in their ambition by using it.swyx: And I mean, self-hosted.Self-hosted. ‘causeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: it's, yeah, and it commercial, this is like 2015, right? So it's like a very particular vintage. Right. It's probably better at a lot of these things now. Um, it was difficult to contend with and I'm just like, I just think about it. It's an inverted index. It should be good at these kinds of queries and do all of this.And it was, we, we often couldn't get it to do exactly what we needed to do or basically get lucine to do, like expose lucine raw to, to, to what we needed to do. Um, so that was like. Just something that we did on the side and just panic scaled when we needed to, but not a particular focus of mine. So I left, and when I left, I, um, wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do.I mean, it spent like a decade inside of the same company. I'd like grown up there. I started working there when I was 18.swyx: You only do Rails?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Rails. And he's a Rails guy. Uh, love Rails. So good. Um,Alessio: we all wish we could still work in Rails.swyx: I know know. I know, but some, I tried learning Ruby.It's just too much, like too many options to do the same thing. It's, that's my, I I know there's a, there's a way to do it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I love it. I don't know that I would use it now, like given cloud code and, and, and cursor and everything, but, um, um, but still it, like if I'm just sitting down and writing a teal code, that's how I think.But anyway, I left and I wasn't, I talked to a couple companies and I was like, I don't. I need to see a little bit more of the world here to know what I'm gonna like focus on next. Um, and so what I decided is like I was gonna, I called it like angel engineering, where I just hopped around in my friend's companies in three months increments and just helped them out with something.Right. And, and just vested a bit of equity and solved some interesting infrastructure problem. So I worked with a bunch of companies at the time, um, read Wise was one of them. Replicate was one of them. Um, causal, I dunno if you've tried this, it's like a, it's a spreadsheet engine Yeah. Where you can do distribution.They sold recently. Yeah. Um, we've been, we used that in fp and a at, um, at Turbo Puffer. Um, so a bunch of companies like this and it was super fun. And so we're the Chachi bt moment happened, I was with. With read Wise for a stint, we were preparing for the reader launch, right? Which is where you, you cue articles and read them later.And I was just getting their Postgres up to snuff, like, which basically boils down to tuning, auto vacuum. So I was doing that and then this happened and we were like, oh, maybe we should build a little recommendation engine and some features to try to hook in the lms. They were not that good yet, but it was clear there was something there.And so I built a small recommendation engine just, okay, let's take the articles that you've recently read, right? Like embed all the articles and then do recommendations. It was good enough that when I ran it on one of the co-founders of Rey's, like I found out that I got articles about, about having a child.I'm like, oh my God, I didn't, I, I didn't know that, that they were having a child. I wasn't sure what to do with that information, but the recommendation engine was good enough that it was suggesting articles, um, about that. And so there was, there was recommendations and uh, it actually worked really well.But this was a company that was spending maybe five grand a month in total on all their infrastructure and. When I did the napkin math on running the embeddings of all the articles, putting them into a vector index, putting it in prod, it's gonna be like 30 grand a month. That just wasn't tenable. Right?Like Read Wise is a proudly bootstrapped company and it's paying 30 grand for infrastructure for one feature versus five. It just wasn't tenable. So sort of in the bucket of this is useful, it's pretty good, but let us, let's return to it when the costs come down.swyx: Did you say it grows by feature? So for five to 30 is by the number of, like, what's the, what's the Scaling factor scale?It scales by the number of articles that you embed.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: It does, but what I meant by that is like five grand for like all of the other, like the Heroku, dinos, Postgres, like all the other, and this then storage is 30. Yeah. And then like 30 grand for one feature. Right. Which is like, what other articles are related to this one.Um, so it was just too much right to, to power everything. Their budget would've been maybe a few thousand dollars, which still would've been a lot. And so we put it in a bucket of, okay, we're gonna do that later. We'll wait, we will wait for the cost to come down. And that haunted me. I couldn't stop thinking about it.I was like, okay, there's clearly some latent demand here. If the cost had been a 10th, we would've shipped it and. This was really the only data point that I had. Right. I didn't, I, I didn't, I didn't go out and talk to anyone else. It was just so I started reading Right. I couldn't, I couldn't help myself.Like I didn't know what like a vector index is. I, I generally barely do about how to generate the vectors. There was a lot of hype about, this is a early 2023. There was a lot of hype about vector databases. There were raising a lot of money and it's like, I really didn't know anything about it. It's like, you know, trying these little models, fine tuning them.Like I was just trying to get sort of a lay of the land. So I just sat down. I have this. A GitHub repository called Napkin Math. And on napkin math, there's just, um, rows of like, oh, this is how much bandwidth. Like this is how many, you know, you can do 25 gigabytes per second on average to dram. You can do, you know, five gigabytes per second of rights to an SSD, blah blah.All of these numbers, right? And S3, how many you could do per, how much bandwidth can you drive per connection? I was just sitting down, I was like, why hasn't anyone build a database where you just put everything on O storage and then you puff it into NVME when you use the data and you puff it into dram if you're, if you're querying it alive, it's just like, this seems fairly obvious and you, the only real downside to that is that if you go all in on o storage, every right will take a couple hundred milliseconds of latency, but from there it's really all upside, right?You do the first go, it takes half a second. And it sort of occurred to me as like, well. The architecture is really good for that. It's really good for AB storage, it's really good for nvm ESSD. It's, well, you just couldn't have done that 10 years ago. Back to what we were talking about before. You really have to build a database where you have as few round trips as possible, right?This is how CPUs work today. It's how NVM E SSDs work. It's how as, um, as three works that you want to have a very large amount of outstanding requests, right? Like basically go to S3, do like that thousand requests to ask for data in one round trip. Wait for that. Get that, like, make a new decision. Do it again, and try to do that maybe a maximum of three times.But no databases were designed that way within NVME as is ds. You can drive like within, you know, within a very low multiple of DRAM bandwidth if you use it that way. And same with S3, right? You can fully max out the network card, which generally is not maxed out. You get very, like, very, very good bandwidth.And, but no one had built a database like that. So I was like, okay, well can't you just, you know, take all the vectors right? And plot them in the proverbial coordinate system. Get the clusters, put a file on S3 called clusters, do json, and then put another file for every cluster, you know, cluster one, do js O cluster two, do js ON you know that like it's two round trips, right?So you get the clusters, you find the closest clusters, and then you download the cluster files like the, the closest end. And you could do this in two round trips.swyx: You were nearest neighbors locally.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Yes. And then, and you would build this, this file, right? It's just like ultra simplistic, but it's not a far shot from what the first version of Turbo Buffer was.Why hasn't anyone done thatAlessio: in that moment? From a workload perspective, you're thinking this is gonna be like a read heavy thing because they're doing recommend. Like is the fact that like writes are so expensive now? Oh, with ai you're actually not writing that much.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: At that point I hadn't really thought too much about, well no actually it was always clear to me that there was gonna be a lot of rights because at Shopify, the search clusters were doing, you know, I don't know, tens or hundreds of crew QPS, right?‘cause you just have to have a human sit and type in. But we did, you know, I don't know how many updates there were per second. I'm sure it was in the millions, right into the cluster. So I always knew there was like a 10 to 100 ratio on the read write. In the read wise use case. It's, um, even, even in the read wise use case, there'd probably be a lot fewer reads than writes, right?There's just a lot of churn on the amount of stuff that was going through versus the amount of queries. Um, I wasn't thinking too much about that. I was mostly just thinking about what's the fundamentally cheapest way to build a database in the cloud today using the primitives that you have available.And this is it, right? You just, now you have one machine and you know, let's say you have a terabyte of data in S3, you paid the $200 a month for that, and then maybe five to 10% of that data and needs to be an NV ME SSDs and less than that in dram. Well. You're paying very, very little to inflate the data.swyx: By the way, when you say no one else has done that, uh, would you consider Neon, uh, to be on a similar path in terms of being sort of S3 first and, uh, separating the compute and storage?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I think what I meant with that is, uh, just build a completely new database. I don't know if we were the first, like it was very much, it was, I mean, I, I hadn't, I just looked at the napkin math and was like, this seems really obvious.So I'm sure like a hundred people came up with it at the same time. Like the light bulb and every invention ever. Right. It was just in the air. I think Neon Neon was, was first to it. And they're trying, they're retrofitted onto Postgres, right? And then they built this whole architecture where you have, you have it in memory and then you sort of.You know, m map back to S3. And I think that was very novel at the time to do it for, for all LTP, but I hadn't seen a database that was truly all in, right. Not retrofitting it. The database felt built purely for this no consensus layer. Even using compare and swap on optic storage to do consensus. I hadn't seen anyone go that all in.And I, I mean, there, there, I'm sure there was someone that did that before us. I don't know. I was just looking at the napkin mathswyx: and, and when you say consensus layer, uh, are you strongly relying on S3 Strong consistency? You are. Okay.SoSimon Hørup Eskildsen: that is your consensus layer. It, it is the consistency layer. And I think also, like, this is something that most people don't realize, but S3 only became consistent in December of 2020.swyx: I remember this coming out during COVID and like people were like, oh, like, it was like, uh, it was just like a free upgrade.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah.swyx: They were just, they just announced it. We saw consistency guys and like, okay, cool.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I'm sure that they just, they probably had it in prod for a while and they're just like, it's done right.And people were like, okay, cool. But. That's a big moment, right? Like nv, ME SSDs, were also not in the cloud until around 2017, right? So you just sort of had like 2017 nv, ME SSDs, and people were like, okay, cool. There's like one skew that does this, whatever, right? Takes a few years. And then the second thing is like S3 becomes consistent in 2020.So now it means you don't have to have this like big foundation DB or like zookeeper or whatever sitting there contending with the keys, which is how. You know, that's what Snowflake and others have do so muchswyx: for goneSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly. Just gone. Right? And so just push to the, you know, whatever, how many hundreds of people they have working on S3 solved and then compare and swap was not in S3 at this point in time,swyx: by the way.Uh, I don't know what that is, so maybe you wanna explain. Yes. Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. So, um, what Compare and swap is, is basically, you can imagine that if you have a database, it might be really nice to have a file called metadata json. And metadata JSON could say things like, Hey, these keys are here and this file means that, and there's lots of metadata that you have to operate in the database, right?But that's the simplest way to do it. So now you have might, you might have a lot of servers that wanna change the metadata. They might have written a file and want the metadata to contain that file. But you have a hundred nodes that are trying to contend with this metadata that JSON well, what compare and Swap allows you to do is basically just you download the file, you make the modifications, and then you write it only if it hasn't changed.While you did the modification and if not you retry. Right? Should just have this retry loops. Now you can imagine if you have a hundred nodes doing that, it's gonna be really slow, but it will converge over time. That primitive was not available in S3. It wasn't available in S3 until late 2024, but it was available in GCP.The real story of this is certainly not that I sat down and like bake brained it. I was like, okay, we're gonna start on GCS S3 is gonna get it later. Like it was really not that we started, we got really lucky, like we started on GCP and we started on GCP because tur um, Shopify ran on GCP. And so that was the platform I was most available with.Right. Um, and I knew the Canadian team there ‘cause I'd worked with them at Shopify and so it was natural for us to start there. And so when we started building the database, we're like, oh yeah, we have to build a, we really thought we had to build a consensus layer, like have a zookeeper or something to do this.But then we discovered the compare and swap. It's like, oh, we can kick the can. Like we'll just do metadata r json and just, it's fine. It's probably fine. Um, and we just kept kicking the can until we had very, very strong conviction in the idea. Um, and then we kind of just hinged the company on the fact that S3 probably was gonna get this, it started getting really painful in like mid 2024.‘cause we were closing deals with, um, um, notion actually that was running in AWS and we're like, trust us. You, you really want us to run this in GCP? And they're like, no, I don't know about that. Like, we're running everything in AWS and the latency across the cloud were so big and we had so much conviction that we bought like, you know, dark fiber between the AWS regions in, in Oregon, like in the InterExchange and GCP is like, we've never seen a startup like do like, what's going on here?And we're just like, no, we don't wanna do this. We were tuning like TCP windows, like everything to get the latency down ‘cause we had so high conviction in not doing like a, a metadata layer on S3. So those were the three conditions, right? Compare and swap. To do metadata, which wasn't in S3 until late 2024 S3 being consistent, which didn't happen until December, 2020.Uh, 2020. And then NVMe ssd, which didn't end in the cloud until 2017.swyx: I mean, in some ways, like a very big like cloud success story that like you were able to like, uh, put this all together, but also doing things like doing, uh, bind our favor. That that actually is something I've never heard.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean, it's very common when you're a big company, right?You're like connecting your own like data center or whatever. But it's like, it was uniquely just a pain with notion because the, um, the org, like most of the, like if you're buying in Ashburn, Virginia, right? Like US East, the Google, like the GCP and, and AWS data centers are like within a millisecond on, on each other, on the public exchanges.But in Oregon uniquely, the GCP data center sits like a couple hundred kilometers, like east of Portland and the AWS region sits in Portland, but the network exchange they go through is through Seattle. So it's like a full, like 14 milliseconds or something like that. And so anyway, yeah. It's, it's, so we were like, okay, we can't, we have to go through an exchange in Portland.Yeah. Andswyx: you'd rather do this than like run your zookeeper and likeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Way rather. It doesn't have state, I don't want state and two systems. Um, and I think all that is just informed by Justine, my co-founder and I had just been on call for so long. And the worst outages are the ones where you have state in multiple places that's not syncing up.So it really came from, from a a, like just a, a very pure source of pain, of just imagining what we would be Okay. Being woken up at 3:00 AM about and having something in zookeeper was not one of them.swyx: You, you're talking to like a notion or something. Do they care or do they just, theySimon Hørup Eskildsen: just, they care about latency.swyx: They latency cost. That's it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: They just cared about latency. Right. And we just absorbed the cost. We're just like, we have high conviction in this. At some point we can move them to AWS. Right. And so we just, we, we'll buy the fiber, it doesn't matter. Right. Um, and it's like $5,000. Usually when you buy fiber, you buy like multiple lines.And we're like, we can only afford one, but we will just test it that when it goes over the public internet, it's like super smooth. And so we did a lot of, anyway, it's, yeah, it was, that's cool.Alessio: You can imagine talking to the GCP rep and it's like, no, we're gonna buy, because we know we're gonna turn, we're gonna turn from you guys and go to AWS in like six months.But in the meantime we'll do this. It'sSimon Hørup Eskildsen: a, I mean, like they, you know, this workload still runs on GCP for what it's worth. Right? ‘cause it's so, it was just, it was so reliable. So it was never about moving off GCP, it was just about honesty. It was just about giving notion the latency that they deserved.Right. Um, and we didn't want ‘em to have to care about any of this. We also, they were like, oh, egress is gonna be bad. It was like, okay, screw it. Like we're just gonna like vvc, VPC peer with you and AWS we'll eat the cost. Yeah. Whatever needs to be done.Alessio: And what were the actual workloads? Because I think when you think about ai, it's like 14 milliseconds.It's like really doesn't really matter in the scheme of like a model generation.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. We were told the latency, right. That we had to beat. Oh, right. So, so we're just looking at the traces. Right. And then sort of like hand draw, like, you know, kind of like looking at the trace and then thinking what are the other extensions of the trace?Right. And there's a lot more to it because it's also when you have, if you have 14 versus seven milliseconds, right. You can fit in another round trip. So we had to tune TCP to try to send as much data in every round trip, prewarm all the connections. And there was, there's a lot of things that compound from having these kinds of round trips, but in the grand scheme it was just like, well, we have to beat the latency of whatever we're up against.swyx: Which is like they, I mean, notion is a database company. They could have done this themselves. They, they do lots of database engineering themselves. How do you even get in the door? Like Yeah, just like talk through that kind of.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Last time I was in San Francisco, I was talking to one of the engineers actually, who, who was one of our champions, um, at, AT Notion.And they were, they were just trying to make sure that the, you know, per user cost matched the economics that they needed. You know, Uhhuh like, it's like the way I think about, it's like I have to earn a return on whatever the clouds charge me and then my customers have to earn a return on that. And it's like very simple, right?And so there has to be gross margin all the way up and that's how you build the product. And so then our customers have to make the right set of trade off the turbo Puffer makes, and if they're happy with that, that's great.swyx: Do you feel like you're competing with build internally versus buy or buy versus buy?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so, sorry, this was all to build up to your question. So one of the notion engineers told me that they'd sat and probably on a napkin, like drawn out like, why hasn't anyone built this? And then they saw terrible. It was like, well, it literally that. So, and I think AI has also changed the buy versus build equation in terms of, it's not really about can we build it, it's about do we have time to build it?I think they like, I think they felt like, okay, if this is a team that can do that and they, they feel enough like an extension of our team, well then we can go a lot faster, which would be very, very good for them. And I mean, they put us through the, through the test, right? Like we had some very, very long nights to to, to do that POC.And they were really our biggest, our second big customer off the cursor, which also was a lot of late nights. Right.swyx: Yeah. That, I mean, should we go into that story? The, the, the sort of Chris's story, like a lot, um, they credit you a lot for. Working very closely with them. So I just wanna hear, I've heard this, uh, story from Sole's point of view, but like, I'm curious what, what it looks like from your side.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I actually haven't heard it from Sole's point of view, so maybe you can now cross reference it. The way that I remember it was that, um, the day after we launched, which was just, you know, I'd worked the whole summer on, on the first version. Justine wasn't part of it yet. ‘cause I just, I didn't tell anyone that summer that I was working on this.I was just locked in on building it because it's very easy otherwise to confuse talking about something to actually doing it. And so I was just like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna do the thing. I launched it and at this point turbo puffer is like a rust binary running on a single eight core machine in a T Marks instance.And me deploying it was like looking at the request log and then like command seeing it or like control seeing it to just like, okay, there's no request. Let's upgrade the binary. Like it was like literally the, the, the, the scrappiest thing. You could imagine it was on purpose because just like at Shopify, we did that all the time.Like, we like move, like we ran things in tux all the time to begin with. Before something had like, at least the inkling of PMF, it was like, okay, is anyone gonna hear about this? Um, and one of the cursor co-founders Arvid reached out and he just, you know, the, the cursor team are like all I-O-I-I-M-O like, um, contenders, right?So they just speak in bullet points and, and facts. It was like this amazing email exchange just of, this is how many QPS we have, this is what we're paying, this is where we're going, blah, blah, blah. And so we're just conversing in bullet points. And I tried to get a call with them a few times, but they were, so, they were like really writing the PMF bowl here, just like late 2023.And one time Swally emails me at like five. What was it like 4:00 AM Pacific time saying like, Hey, are you open for a call now? And I'm on the East coast and I, it was like 7:00 AM I was like, yeah, great, sure, whatever. Um, and we just started talking and something. Then I didn't know anything about sales.It was something that just comp compelled me. I have to go see this team. Like, there's something here. So I, I went to San Francisco and I went to their office and the way that I remember it is that Postgres was down when I showed up at the office. Did SW tell you this? No. Okay. So Postgres was down and so it's like they were distracting with that.And I was trying my best to see if I could, if I could help in any way. Like I knew a little bit about databases back to tuning, auto vacuum. It was like, I think you have to tune out a vacuum. Um, and so we, we talked about that and then, um, that evening just talked about like what would it look like, what would it look like to work with us?And I just said. Look like we're all in, like we will just do what we'll do whatever, whatever you tell us, right? They migrated everything over the next like week or two, and we reduced their cost by 95%, which I think like kind of fixed their per user economics. Um, and it solved a lot of other things. And we were just, Justine, this is also when I asked Justine to come on as my co-founder, she was the best engineer, um, that I ever worked with at Shopify.She lived two blocks away and we were just, okay, we're just gonna get this done. Um, and we did, and so we helped them migrate and we just worked like hell over the next like month or two to make sure that we were never an issue. And that was, that was the cursor story. Yeah.swyx: And, and is code a different workload than normal text?I, I don't know. Is is it just text? Is it the same thing?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so cursor's workload is basically, they, um, they will embed the entire code base, right? So they, they will like chunk it up in whatever they would, they do. They have their own embedding model, um, which they've been public about. Um, and they find that on, on, on their evals.It. There's one of their evals where it's like a 25% improvement on a very particular workload. They have a bunch of blog posts about it. Um, I think it works best on larger code basis, but they've trained their own embedding model to do this. Um, and so you'll see it if you use the cursor agent, it will do searches.And they've also been public around, um, how they've, I think they post trained their model to be very good at semantic search as well. Um, and that's, that's how they use it. And so it's very good at, like, can you find me on the code that's similar to this, or code that does this? And just in, in this queries, they also use GR to supplement it.swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, of courseswyx: it's been a big topic of discussion like, is rag dead because gr you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and I mean like, I just, we, we see lots of demand from the coding company to ethicsswyx: search in every part. Yes.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Uh, we, we, we see demand. And so, I mean, I'm. I like case studies. I don't like, like just doing like thought pieces on this is where it's going.And like trying to be all macroeconomic about ai, that's has turned out to be a giant waste of time because no one can really predict any of this. So I just collect case studies and I mean, cursor has done a great job talking about what they're doing and I hope some of the other coding labs that use Turbo Puffer will do the same.Um, but it does seem to make a difference for particular queries. Um, I mean we can also do text, we can also do RegX, but I should also say that cursors like security posture into Tur Puffer is exceptional, right? They have their own embedding model, which makes it very difficult to reverse engineer. They obfuscate the file paths.They like you. It's very difficult to learn anything about a code base by looking at it. And the other thing they do too is that for their customers, they encrypt it with their encryption keys in turbo puffer's bucket. Um, so it's, it's, it's really, really well designed.swyx: And so this is like extra stuff they did to work with you because you are not part of Cursor.Exactly like, and this is just best practice when working in any database, not just you guys. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I think for me, like the, the, the learning is kind of like you, like all workloads are hybrid. Like, you know, uh, like you, you want the semantic, you want the text, you want the RegX, you want sql.I dunno. Um, but like, it's silly to like be all in on like one particularly query pattern.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think, like I really like the way that, um, um, that swally at cursor talks about it, which is, um, I'm gonna butcher it here. Um, and you know, I'm a, I'm a database scalability person. I'm not a, I, I dunno anything about training models other than, um, what the internet tells me and what.The way he describes is that this is just like cash compute, right? It's like you have a point in time where you're looking at some particular context and focused on some chunk and you say, this is the layer of the neural net at this point in time. That seems fundamentally really useful to do cash compute like that.And, um, how the value of that will change over time. I'm, I'm not sure, but there seems to be a lot of value in that.Alessio: Maybe talk a bit about the evolution of the workload, because even like search, like maybe two years ago it was like one search at the start of like an LLM query to build the context. Now you have a gentech search, however you wanna call it, where like the model is both writing and changing the code and it's searching it again later.Yeah. What are maybe some of the new types of workloads or like changes you've had to make to your architecture for it?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think you're right. When I think of rag, I think of, Hey, there's an 8,000 token, uh, context window and you better make it count. Um, and search was a way to do that now. Everything is moving towards the, just let the agent do its thing.Right? And so back to the thing before, right? The LLM is very good at reasoning with the data, and so we're just the tool call, right? And that's increasingly what we see our customers doing. Um, what we're seeing more demand from, from our customers now is to do a lot of concurrency, right? Like Notion does a ridiculous amount of queries in every round trip just because they can't.And I'm also now, when I use the cursor agent, I also see them doing more concurrency than I've ever seen before. So a bit similar to how we designed a database to drive as much concurrency in every round trip as possible. That's also what the agents are doing. So that's new. It means just an enormous amount of queries all at once to the dataset while it's warm in as few turns as possible.swyx: Can I clarify one thing on that?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: Is it, are they batching multiple users or one user is driving multiple,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: one user driving multiple, one agent driving.swyx: It's parallel searching a bunch of things.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly.swyx: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, the clinician also did, did this for the fast context thing, like eight parallel at once.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: And, and like an interesting problem is, well, how do you make sure you have enough diversity so you're not making the the same request eight times?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I think like that's probably also where the hybrid comes in, where. That's another way to diversify. It's a completely different way to, to do the search.That's a big change, right? So before it was really just like one call and then, you know, the LLM took however many seconds to return, but now we just see an enormous amount of queries. So the, um, we just see more queries. So we've like tried to reduce query, we've reduced query pricing. Um, this is probably the first time actually I'm saying that, but the query pricing is being reduced, like five x.Um, and we'll probably try to reduce it even more to accommodate some of these workloads of just doing very large amounts of queries. Um, that's one thing that's changed. I think the right, the right ratio is still very high, right? Like there's still a, an enormous amount of rights per read, but we're starting probably to see that change if people really lean into this pattern.Alessio: Can we talk a little bit about the pricing? I'm curious, uh, because traditionally a database would charge on storage, but now you have the token generation that is so expensive, where like the actual. Value of like a good search query is like much higher because they're like saving inference time down the line.How do you structure that as like, what are people receptive to on the other side too?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I, the, the turbo puffer pricing in the beginning was just very simple. The pricing on these on for search engines before Turbo Puffer was very server full, right? It was like, here's the vm, here's the per hour cost, right?Great. And I just sat down with like a piece of paper and said like, if Turbo Puffer was like really good, this is probably what it would cost with a little bit of margin. And that was the first pricing of Turbo Puffer. And I just like sat down and I was like, okay, like this is like probably the storage amp, but whenever on a piece of paper I, it was vibe pricing.It was very vibe price, and I got it wrong. Oh. Um, well I didn't get it wrong, but like Turbo Puffer wasn't at the first principle pricing, right? So when Cursor came on Turbo Puffer, it was like. Like, I didn't know any VCs. I didn't know, like I was just like, I don't know, I didn't know anything about raising money or anything like that.I just saw that my GCP bill was, was high, was a lot higher than the cursor bill. So Justine and I was just like, well, we have to optimize it. Um, and I mean, to the chagrin now of, of it, of, of the VCs, it now means that we're profitable because we've had so much pricing pressure in the beginning. Because it was running on my credit card and Justine and I had spent like, like tens of thousands of dollars on like compute bills and like spinning off the company and like very like, like bad Canadian lawyers and like things like to like get all of this done because we just like, we didn't know.Right. If you're like steeped in San Francisco, you're just like, you just know. Okay. Like you go out, raise a pre-seed round. I, I never heard a word pre-seed at this point in time.swyx: When you had Cursor, you had Notion you, you had no funding.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, with Cursor we had no funding. Yeah. Um, by the time we had Notion Locke was, Locke was here.Yeah. So it was really just, we vibe priced it 100% from first Principles, but it wasn't, it, it was not performing at first principles, so we just did everything we could to optimize it in the beginning for that, so that at least we could have like a 5% margin or something. So I wasn't freaking out because Cursor's bill was also going like this as they were growing.And so my liability and my credit limit was like actively like calling my bank. It was like, I need a bigger credit. Like it was, yeah. Anyway, that was the beginning. Yeah. But the pricing was, yeah, like storage rights and query. Right. And the, the pricing we have today is basically just that pricing with duct tape and spit to try to approach like, you know, like a, as a margin on the physical underlying hardware.And we're doing this year, you're gonna see more and more pricing changes from us. Yeah.swyx: And like is how much does stuff like VVC peering matter because you're working in AWS land where egress is charged and all that, you know.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: We probably don't like, we have like an enterprise plan that just has like a base fee because we haven't had time to figure out SKU pricing for all of this.Um, but I mean, yeah, you can run turbo puffer either in SaaS, right? That's what Cursor does. You can run it in a single tenant cluster. So it's just you. That's what Notion does. And then you can run it in, in, in BYOC where everything is inside the customer's VPC, that's what an for example, philanthropic does.swyx: What I'm hearing is that this is probably the best CRO job for somebody who can come in and,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean,swyx: help you with this.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, like Turbo Puffer hired, like, I don't know what, what number this was, but we had a full-time CFO as like the 12th hire or something at Turbo Puffer, um, I think I hear are a lot of comp.I don't know how they do it. Like they have a hundred employees and not a CFO. It's like having a CFO is like a runningswyx: business man. Like, you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: it's so good. Yeah, like money Mike, like he just, you know, just handles the money and a lot of the business stuff and so he came in and just hopped with a lot of the operational side of the business.So like C-O-O-C-F-O, like somewhere in between.swyx: Just as quick mention of Lucky, just ‘cause I'm curious, I've met Lock and like, he's obviously a very good investor and now on physical intelligence, um, I call it generalist super angel, right? He invests in everything. Um, and I always wonder like, you know, is there something appealing about focusing on developer tooling, focusing on databases, going like, I've invested for 10 years in databases versus being like a lock where he can maybe like connect you to all the customers that you need.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: This is an excellent question. No, no one's asked me this. Um, why lockey? Because. There was a couple of people that we were talking to at the time and when we were raising, we were almost a little, we were like a bit distressed because one of our, one of our peers had just launched something that was very similar to Turbo Puffer.And someone just gave me the advice at the time of just choose the person where you just feel like you can just pick up the phone and not prepare anything. And just be completely honest, and I don't think I've said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like local Lockie. Like if this doesn't have PMF by the end of the year, like we'll just like return all the money to you.But it's just like, I don't really, we, Justine and I don't wanna work on this unless it's really working. So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we're really gonna go for it. We're gonna hire a bunch of people and we're just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don't know how to play a game, I just play with open cards and.Lockey was the only person that didn't, that didn't freak out. He was like, I've never heard anyone say that before. As I said, I didn't even know what a seed or pre-seed round was like before, probably even at this time. So I was just like very honest with him. And I asked him like, Lockie, have you ever have, have you ever invested in database company?He was just like, no. And at the time I was like, am I dumb? Like, but I think there was something that just like really drew me to Lockie. He is so authentic, so honest, like, and there was something just like, I just felt like I could just play like, just say everything openly. And that was, that was, I think that that was like a perfect match at the time, and, and, and honestly still is.He was just like, okay, that's great. This is like the most honest, ridiculous thing I've ever heard anyone say to me. But like that, like that, whyswyx: is this ridiculous? Say competitor launch, this may not work out. It wasSimon Hørup Eskildsen: more just like. If this doesn't work out, I'm gonna close up shop by the end of the mo the year, right?Like it was, I don't know, maybe it's common. I, I don't know. He told me it was uncommon. I don't know. Um, that's why we chose him and he'd been phenomenal. The other people were talking at the, at the time were database experts. Like they, you know, knew a lot about databases and Locke didn't, this turned out to be a phenomenal asset.Right. I like Justine and I know a lot about databases. The people that we hire know a lot about databases. What we needed was just someone who didn't know a lot about databases, didn't pretend to know a lot about databases, and just wanted to help us with candidates and customers. And he did. Yeah. And I have a list, right, of the investors that I have a relationship with, and Lockey has just performed excellent in the number of sub bullets of what we can attribute back to him.Just absolutely incredible. And when people talk about like no ego and just the best thing for the founder, I like, I don't think that anyone, like even my lawyer is like, yeah, Lockey is like the most friendly person you will find.swyx: Okay. This is my most glow recommendation I've ever heard.Alessio: He deserves it.He's very special.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amazing.Alessio: Since you mentioned candidates, maybe we can talk about team building, you know, like, especially in sf, it feels like it's just easier to start a company than to join a company. Uh, I'm curious your experience, especially not being n SF full-time and doing something that is maybe, you know, a very low level of detail and technical detail.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. So joining versus starting, I never thought that I would be a founder. I would start with it, like Turbo Puffer started as a blog post, and then it became a project and then sort of almost accidentally became a company. And now it feels like it's, it's like becoming a bigger company. That was never the intention.The intentions were very pure. It's just like, why hasn't anyone done this? And it's like, I wanna be the, like, I wanna be the first person to do it. I think some founders have this, like, I could never work for anyone else. I, I really don't feel that way. Like, it's just like, I wanna see this happen. And I wanna see it happen with some people that I really enjoy working with and I wanna have fun doing it and this, this, this has all felt very natural on that, on that sense.So it was never a like join versus versus versus found. It was just dis found me at the right moment.Alessio: Well I think there's an argument for, you should have joined Cursor, right? So I'm curious like how you evaluate it. Okay, I should actually go raise money and make this a company versus like, this is like a company that is like growing like crazy.It's like an interesting technical problem. I should just build it within Cursor and then they don't have to encrypt all this stuff. They don't have to obfuscate things. Like was that on your mind at all orSimon Hørup Eskildsen: before taking the, the small check from Lockie, I did have like a hard like look at myself in the mirror of like, okay, do I really want to do this?And because if I take the money, I really have to do it right. And so the way I almost think about it's like you kind of need to ha like you kind of need to be like fucked up enough to want to go all the way. And that was the conversation where I was like, okay, this is gonna be part of my life's journey to build this company and do it in the best way that I possibly can't.Because if I ask people to join me, ask people to get on the cap table, then I have an ultimate responsibility to give it everything. And I don't, I think some people, it doesn't occur to me that everyone takes it that seriously. And maybe I take it too seriously, I don't know. But that was like a very intentional moment.And so then it was very clear like, okay, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna give it everything.Alessio: A lot of people don't take it this seriously. But,swyx: uh, let's talk about, you have this concept of the P 99 engineer. Uh, people are 10 x saying, everyone's saying, you know, uh, maybe engineers are out of a job. I don't know.But you definitely see a P 99 engineer, and I just want you to talk about it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so the P 99 engineer was just a term that we started using internally to talk about candidates and talk about how we wanted to build the company. And you know, like everyone else is, like we want a talent dense company.And I think that's almost become trite at this point. What I credit the cursor founders a lot with is that they just arrived there from first principles of like, we just need a talent dense, um, talent dense team. And I think I've seen some teams that weren't talent dense and like seemed a counterfactual run, which if you've run in been in a large company, you will just see that like it's just logically will happen at a large company.Um, and so that was super important to me and Justine and it's very difficult to maintain. And so we just needed, we needed wording for it. And so I have a document called Traits of the P 99 Engineer, and it's a bullet point list. And I look at that list after every single interview that I do, and in every single recap that we do and every recap we end with.End with, um, some version of I'm gonna reject this candidate completely regardless of what the discourse was, because I wanna see people fight for this person because the default should not be, we're gonna hire this person. The default should be, we're definitely not hiring this person. And you know, if everyone was like, ah, maybe throw a punch, then this is not the right.swyx: Do, do you operate, like if there's one cha there must have at least one champion who's like, yes, I will put my career on, on, on the line for this. You know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think career on the line,swyx: maybe a chair, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: yeah. You know, like, um, I would say so someone needs to like, have both fists up and be like, I'd fight.Right? Yeah. Yeah. And if one person said, then, okay, let's do it. Right?swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um. It doesn't have to be absolutely everyone. Right? And like the interviews are always the sign that you're checking for different attributes. And if someone is like knocking it outta the park in every single attribute, that's, that's fairly rare.Um, but that's really important. And so the traits of the P 99 engineer, there's lots of them. There's also the traits of the p like triple nine engineer and the quadruple nine engineer. This is like, it's a long list.swyx: Okay.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I'll give you some samples, right. Of what we, what we look for. I think that the P 99 engineer has some history of having bent, like their trajectory or something to their will.Right? Some moment where it was just, they just, you know, made the computer do what it needed to do. There's something like that, and it will, it will occur to have them at some point in their career. And, uh. Hopefully multiple times. Right.swyx: Gimme an example of one of your engineers that like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I'll give an eng.Uh, so we, we, we launched this thing called A and NV three. Um, we could, we're also, we're working on V four and V five right now, but a and NV three can search a hundred billion vectors with a P 50 of around 40 milliseconds and a p 99 of 200 milliseconds. Um, maybe other people have done this, I'm sure Google and others have done this, but, uh, we haven't seen anyone, um, at least not in like a public consumable SaaS that can do this.And that was an engineer, the chief architect of Turbo Puffer, Nathan, um, who more or less just bent this, the software was not capable of this and he just made it capable for a very particular workload in like a, you know, six to eight week period with the help of a lot of the team. Right. It's been, been, there's numerous of examples of that, like at, at turbo puff, but that's like really bending the software and X 86 to your will.It was incredible to watch. Um. You wanna see some moments like that?swyx: Isn't that triple nine?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I think Nathan, what's calledAlessio: group nine, that was only nine. I feel like this is too high forSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Nathan. Nathan is, uh, Nathan is like, yeah, there's a lot of nines. Okay. After that p So I think that's one trait. I think another trait is that, uh, the P 99 spends a lot of time looking at maps.Generally it's their preferred ux. They just love looking at maps. You ever seen someone who just like, sits on their phone and just like, scrolls around on a map? Or did you not look at maps A lot? You guys don't look atswyx: maps? I guess I'm not feeling there. I don't know, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: you just dis What about trains?Do you like trains?swyx: Uh, I mean they, not enough. Okay. This is just like weapon nice. Autism is what I call it. Like, like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: um, I love looking at maps, like, it's like my preferred UX and just like I, you know, I likeswyx: lotsAlessio: of, of like random places, soswyx: like,youswyx: know.Alessio: Yes. Okay. There you go. So instead of like random places, like how do you explore the maps?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: No, it's, it's just a joke.swyx: It's autism laugh. It's like you are just obsessed by something and you like studying a thing.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The origin of this was that at some point I read an interview with some IOI gold medalistswyx: Uhhuh,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and it's like, what do you do in your spare time? I was just like, I like looking at maps.I was like, I feel so seen. Like, I just like love, like swirling out. I was like, oh, Canada is so big. Where's Baffin Island? I don't know. I love it. Yeah. Um, anyway, so the traits of P 99, P 99 is obsessive, right? Like, there's just like, you'll, you'll find traits of that we do an interview at, at, at, at turbo puffer or like multiple interviews that just try to screen for some of these things.Um, so. There's lots of others, but these are the kinds of traits that we look for.swyx: I'll tell you, uh, some people listen for like some of my dere stuff. Uh, I do think about derel as maps. Um, you draw a map for people, uh, maps show you the, uh, what is commonly agreed to be the geographical features of what a boundary is.And it shows also shows you what is not doing. And I, I think a lot of like developer tools, companies try to tell you they can do everything, but like, let's, let's be real. Like you, your, your three landmarks are here, everyone comes here, then here, then here, and you draw a map and, and then you draw a journey through the map.And like that. To me, that's what developer relations looks like. So I do think about things that way.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think the P 99 thinks in offs, right? The P 99 is very clear about, you know, hey, turbo puffer, you can't run a high transaction workload on turbo puffer, right? It's like the right latency is a hundred milliseconds.That's a clear trade off. I think the P 99 is very good at articulating the trade offs in every decision. Um. Which is exactly what the map is in your case, right?swyx: Uh, yeah, yeah. My, my, my world. My world.Alessio: How, how do you reconcile some of these things when you're saying you bend the will the computer versus like the trade

Bryan Cantrill is the co-founder and CTO of Oxide Computer Company. We discuss why the biggest cloud providers don't use off the shelf hardware, how scaling data centers at samsung's scale exposed problems with hard drive firmware, how the values of NodeJS are in conflict with robust systems, choosing Rust, and the benefits of Oxide Computer's rack scale approach. This is an extended version of an interview posted on Software Engineering Radio. Related links Oxide Computer Oxide and Friends Illumos Platform as a Reflection of Values RFD 26 bhyve CockroachDB Heterogeneous Computing with Raja Koduri Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I am talking to Bryan Cantrill. He's the co-founder and CTO of Oxide computer company, and he was previously the CTO of Joyent and he also co-authored the DTrace Tracing framework while he was at Sun Microsystems. [00:00:14] Jeremy: Bryan, welcome to Software Engineering radio. [00:00:17] Bryan: Uh, awesome. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. [00:00:20] Jeremy: You're the CTO of a company that makes computers. But I think before we get into that, a lot of people who built software, now that the actual computer is abstracted away, they're using AWS or they're using some kind of cloud service. So I thought we could start by talking about, data centers. [00:00:41] Jeremy: 'cause you were. Previously working at Joyent, and I believe you got bought by Samsung and you've previously talked about how you had to figure out, how do I run things at Samsung's scale. So how, how, how was your experience with that? What, what were the challenges there? Samsung scale and migrating off the cloud [00:01:01] Bryan: Yeah, I mean, so at Joyent, and so Joyent was a cloud computing pioneer. Uh, we competed with the likes of AWS and then later GCP and Azure. Uh, and we, I mean, we were operating at a scale, right? We had a bunch of machines, a bunch of dcs, but ultimately we know we were a VC backed company and, you know, a small company by the standards of, certainly by Samsung standards. [00:01:25] Bryan: And so when, when Samsung bought the company, I mean, the reason by the way that Samsung bought Joyent is Samsung's. Cloud Bill was, uh, let's just say it was extremely large. They were spending an enormous amount of money every year on, on the public cloud. And they realized that in order to secure their fate economically, they had to be running on their own infrastructure. [00:01:51] Bryan: It did not make sense. And there's not, was not really a product that Samsung could go buy that would give them that on-prem cloud. Uh, I mean in that, in that regard, like the state of the market was really no different. And so they went looking for a company, uh, and bought, bought Joyent. And when we were on the inside of Samsung. [00:02:11] Bryan: That we learned about Samsung scale. And Samsung loves to talk about Samsung scale. And I gotta tell you, it is more than just chest thumping. Like Samsung Scale really is, I mean, just the, the sheer, the number of devices, the number of customers, just this absolute size. they really wanted to take us out to, to levels of scale, certainly that we had not seen. [00:02:31] Bryan: The reason for buying Joyent was to be able to stand up on their own infrastructure so that we were gonna go buy, we did go buy a bunch of hardware. Problems with server hardware at scale [00:02:40] Bryan: And I remember just thinking, God, I hope Dell is somehow magically better. I hope the problems that we have seen in the small, we just. You know, I just remember hoping and hope is hope. It was of course, a terrible strategy and it was a terrible strategy here too. Uh, and the we that the problems that we saw at the large were, and when you scale out the problems that you see kind of once or twice, you now see all the time and they become absolutely debilitating. [00:03:12] Bryan: And we saw a whole series of really debilitating problems. I mean, many ways, like comically debilitating, uh, in terms of, of showing just how bad the state-of-the-art. Yes. And we had, I mean, it should be said, we had great software and great software expertise, um, and we were controlling our own system software. [00:03:35] Bryan: But even controlling your own system software, your own host OS, your own control plane, which is what we had at Joyent, ultimately, you're pretty limited. You go, I mean, you got the problems that you can obviously solve, the ones that are in your own software, but the problems that are beneath you, the, the problems that are in the hardware platform, the problems that are in the componentry beneath you become the problems that are in the firmware. IO latency due to hard drive firmware [00:04:00] Bryan: Those problems become unresolvable and they are deeply, deeply frustrating. Um, and we just saw a bunch of 'em again, they were. Comical in retrospect, and I'll give you like a, a couple of concrete examples just to give, give you an idea of what kinda what you're looking at. one of the, our data centers had really pathological IO latency. [00:04:23] Bryan: we had a very, uh, database heavy workload. And this was kind of right at the period where you were still deploying on rotating media on hard drives. So this is like, so. An all flash buy did not make economic sense when we did this in, in 2016. This probably, it'd be interesting to know like when was the, the kind of the last time that that actual hard drives made sense? [00:04:50] Bryan: 'cause I feel this was close to it. So we had a, a bunch of, of a pathological IO problems, but we had one data center in which the outliers were actually quite a bit worse and there was so much going on in that system. It took us a long time to figure out like why. And because when, when you, when you're io when you're seeing worse io I mean you're naturally, you wanna understand like what's the workload doing? [00:05:14] Bryan: You're trying to take a first principles approach. What's the workload doing? So this is a very intensive database workload to support the, the object storage system that we had built called Manta. And that the, the metadata tier was stored and uh, was we were using Postgres for that. And that was just getting absolutely slaughtered. [00:05:34] Bryan: Um, and ultimately very IO bound with these kind of pathological IO latencies. Uh, and as we, you know, trying to like peel away the layers to figure out what was going on. And I finally had this thing. So it's like, okay, we are seeing at the, at the device layer, at the at, at the disc layer, we are seeing pathological outliers in this data center that we're not seeing anywhere else. [00:06:00] Bryan: And that does not make any sense. And the thought occurred to me. I'm like, well, maybe we are. Do we have like different. Different rev of firmware on our HGST drives, HGST. Now part of WD Western Digital were the drives that we had everywhere. And, um, so maybe we had a different, maybe I had a firmware bug. [00:06:20] Bryan: I, this would not be the first time in my life at all that I would have a drive firmware issue. Uh, and I went to go pull the firmware, rev, and I'm like, Toshiba makes hard drives? So we had, I mean. I had no idea that Toshiba even made hard drives, let alone that they were our, they were in our data center. [00:06:38] Bryan: I'm like, what is this? And as it turns out, and this is, you know, part of the, the challenge when you don't have an integrated system, which not to pick on them, but Dell doesn't, and what Dell would routinely put just sub make substitutes, and they make substitutes that they, you know, it's kind of like you're going to like, I don't know, Instacart or whatever, and they're out of the thing that you want. [00:07:03] Bryan: So, you know, you're, someone makes a substitute and like sometimes that's okay, but it's really not okay in a data center. And you really want to develop and validate a, an end-to-end integrated system. And in this case, like Toshiba doesn't, I mean, Toshiba does make hard drives, but they are a, or the data they did, uh, they basically were, uh, not competitive and they were not competitive in part for the reasons that we were discovering. [00:07:29] Bryan: They had really serious firmware issues. So the, these were drives that would just simply stop a, a stop acknowledging any reads from the order of 2,700 milliseconds. Long time, 2.7 seconds. Um. And that was a, it was a drive firmware issue, but it was highlighted like a much deeper issue, which was the simple lack of control that we had over our own destiny. [00:07:53] Bryan: Um, and it's an, it's, it's an example among many where Dell is making a decision. That lowers the cost of what they are providing you marginally, but it is then giving you a system that they shouldn't have any confidence in because it's not one that they've actually designed and they leave it to the customer, the end user, to make these discoveries. [00:08:18] Bryan: And these things happen up and down the stack. And for every, for whether it's, and, and not just to pick on Dell because it's, it's true for HPE, it's true for super micro, uh, it's true for your switch vendors. It's, it's true for storage vendors where the, the, the, the one that is left actually integrating these things and trying to make the the whole thing work is the end user sitting in their data center. AWS / Google are not buying off the shelf hardware but you can't use it [00:08:42] Bryan: There's not a product that they can buy that gives them elastic infrastructure, a cloud in their own DC The, the product that you buy is the public cloud. Like when you go in the public cloud, you don't worry about the stuff because that it's, it's AWS's issue or it's GCP's issue. And they are the ones that get this to ground. [00:09:02] Bryan: And they, and this was kind of, you know, the eye-opening moment. Not a surprise. Uh, they are not Dell customers. They're not HPE customers. They're not super micro customers. They have designed their own machines. And to varying degrees, depending on which one you're looking at. But they've taken the clean sheet of paper and the frustration that we had kind of at Joyent and beginning to wonder and then Samsung and kind of wondering what was next, uh, is that, that what they built was not available for purchase in the data center. [00:09:35] Bryan: You could only rent it in the public cloud. And our big belief is that public cloud computing is a really important revolution in infrastructure. Doesn't feel like a different, a deep thought, but cloud computing is a really important revolution. It shouldn't only be available to rent. You should be able to actually buy it. [00:09:53] Bryan: And there are a bunch of reasons for doing that. Uh, one in the one we we saw at Samsung is economics, which I think is still the dominant reason where it just does not make sense to rent all of your compute in perpetuity. But there are other reasons too. There's security, there's risk management, there's latency. [00:10:07] Bryan: There are a bunch of reasons why one might wanna to own one's own infrastructure. But, uh, that was very much the, the, so the, the genesis for oxide was coming out of this very painful experience and a painful experience that, because, I mean, a long answer to your question about like what was it like to be at Samsung scale? [00:10:27] Bryan: Those are the kinds of things that we, I mean, in our other data centers, we didn't have Toshiba drives. We only had the HDSC drives, but it's only when you get to this larger scale that you begin to see some of these pathologies. But these pathologies then are really debilitating in terms of those who are trying to develop a service on top of them. [00:10:45] Bryan: So it was, it was very educational in, in that regard. And you're very grateful for the experience at Samsung in terms of opening our eyes to the challenge of running at that kind of scale. [00:10:57] Jeremy: Yeah, because I, I think as software engineers, a lot of times we, we treat the hardware as a, as a given where, [00:11:08] Bryan: Yeah. [00:11:08] Bryan: Yeah. There's software in chard drives [00:11:09] Jeremy: It sounds like in, in this case, I mean, maybe the issue is not so much that. Dell or HP as a company doesn't own every single piece that they're providing you, but rather the fact that they're swapping pieces in and out without advertising them, and then when it becomes a problem, they're not necessarily willing to, to deal with the, the consequences of that. [00:11:34] Bryan: They just don't know. I mean, I think they just genuinely don't know. I mean, I think that they, it's not like they're making a deliberate decision to kind of ship garbage. It's just that they are making, I mean, I think it's exactly what you said about like, not thinking about the hardware. It's like, what's a hard drive? [00:11:47] Bryan: Like what's it, I mean, it's a hard drive. It's got the same specs as this other hard drive and Intel. You know, it's a little bit cheaper, so why not? It's like, well, like there's some reasons why not, and one of the reasons why not is like, uh, even a hard drive, whether it's rotating media or, or flash, like that's not just hardware. [00:12:05] Bryan: There's software in there. And that the software's like not the same. I mean, there are components where it's like, there's actually, whether, you know, if, if you're looking at like a resistor or a capacitor or something like this Yeah. If you've got two, two parts that are within the same tolerance. Yeah. [00:12:19] Bryan: Like sure. Maybe, although even the EEs I think would be, would be, uh, objecting that a little bit. But the, the, the more complicated you get, and certainly once you get to the, the, the, the kind of the hardware that we think of like a, a, a microprocessor, a a network interface card, a a, a hard driver, an NVME drive. [00:12:38] Bryan: Those things are super complicated and there's a whole bunch of software inside of those things, the firmware, and that's the stuff that, that you can't, I mean, you say that software engineers don't think about that. It's like you, no one can really think about that because it's proprietary that's kinda welded shut and you've got this abstraction into it. [00:12:55] Bryan: But the, the way that thing operates is very core to how the thing in aggregate will behave. And I think that you, the, the kind of, the, the fundamental difference between Oxide's approach and the approach that you get at a Dell HP Supermicro, wherever, is really thinking holistically in terms of hardware and software together in a system that, that ultimately delivers cloud computing to a user. [00:13:22] Bryan: And there's a lot of software at many, many, many, many different layers. And it's very important to think about, about that software and that hardware holistically as a single system. [00:13:34] Jeremy: And during that time at Joyent, when you experienced some of these issues, was it more of a case of you didn't have enough servers experiencing this? So if it would happen, you might say like, well, this one's not working, so maybe we'll just replace the hardware. What, what was the thought process when you were working at that smaller scale and, and how did these issues affect you? UEFI / Baseboard Management Controller [00:13:58] Bryan: Yeah, at the smaller scale, you, uh, you see fewer of them, right? You just see it's like, okay, we, you know, what you might see is like, that's weird. We kinda saw this in one machine versus seeing it in a hundred or a thousand or 10,000. Um, so you just, you just see them, uh, less frequently as a result, they are less debilitating. [00:14:16] Bryan: Um, I, I think that it's, when you go to that larger scale, those things that become, that were unusual now become routine and they become debilitating. Um, so it, it really is in many regards a function of scale. Uh, and then I think it was also, you know, it was a little bit dispiriting that kind of the substrate we were building on really had not improved. [00:14:39] Bryan: Um, and if you look at, you know, the, if you buy a computer server, buy an x86 server. There is a very low layer of firmware, the BIOS, the basic input output system, the UEFI BIOS, and this is like an abstraction layer that has, has existed since the eighties and hasn't really meaningfully improved. Um, the, the kind of the transition to UEFI happened with, I mean, I, I ironically with Itanium, um, you know, two decades ago. [00:15:08] Bryan: but beyond that, like this low layer, this lowest layer of platform enablement software is really only impeding the operability of the system. Um, you look at the baseboard management controller, which is the kind of the computer within the computer, there is a, uh, there is an element in the machine that needs to handle environmentals, that needs to handle, uh, operate the fans and so on. [00:15:31] Bryan: Uh, and that traditionally has this, the space board management controller, and that architecturally just hasn't improved in the last two decades. And, you know, that's, it's a proprietary piece of silicon. Generally from a company that no one's ever heard of called a Speed, uh, which has to be, is written all on caps, so I guess it needs to be screamed. [00:15:50] Bryan: Um, a speed has a proprietary part that has a, there is a root password infamously there, is there, the root password is encoded effectively in silicon. So, uh, which is just, and for, um, anyone who kind of goes deep into these things, like, oh my God, are you kidding me? Um, when we first started oxide, the wifi password was a fraction of the a speed root password for the bmc. [00:16:16] Bryan: It's kinda like a little, little BMC humor. Um, but those things, it was just dispiriting that, that the, the state-of-the-art was still basically personal computers running in the data center. Um, and that's part of what, what was the motivation for doing something new? [00:16:32] Jeremy: And for the people using these systems, whether it's the baseboard management controller or it's the The BIOS or UF UEFI component, what are the actual problems that people are seeing seen? Security vulnerabilities and poor practices in the BMC [00:16:51] Bryan: Oh man, I, the, you are going to have like some fraction of your listeners, maybe a big fraction where like, yeah, like what are the problems? That's a good question. And then you're gonna have the people that actually deal with these things who are, did like their heads already hit the desk being like, what are the problems? [00:17:06] Bryan: Like what are the non problems? Like what, what works? Actually, that's like a shorter answer. Um, I mean, there are so many problems and a lot of it is just like, I mean, there are problems just architecturally these things are just so, I mean, and you could, they're the problems spread to the horizon, so you can kind of start wherever you want. [00:17:24] Bryan: But I mean, as like, as a really concrete example. Okay, so the, the BMCs that, that the computer within the computer that needs to be on its own network. So you now have like not one network, you got two networks that, and that network, by the way, it, that's the network that you're gonna log into to like reset the machine when it's otherwise unresponsive. [00:17:44] Bryan: So that going into the BMC, you can are, you're able to control the entire machine. Well it's like, alright, so now I've got a second net network that I need to manage. What is running on the BMC? Well, it's running some. Ancient, ancient version of Linux it that you got. It's like, well how do I, how do I patch that? [00:18:02] Bryan: How do I like manage the vulnerabilities with that? Because if someone is able to root your BMC, they control the system. So it's like, this is not you've, and now you've gotta go deal with all of the operational hair around that. How do you upgrade that system updating the BMC? I mean, it's like you've got this like second shadow bad infrastructure that you have to go manage. [00:18:23] Bryan: Generally not open source. There's something called open BMC, um, which, um, you people use to varying degrees, but you're generally stuck with the proprietary BMC, so you're generally stuck with, with iLO from HPE or iDRAC from Dell or, or, uh, the, uh, su super micros, BMC, that H-P-B-M-C, and you are, uh, it is just excruciating pain. [00:18:49] Bryan: Um, and that this is assuming that by the way, that everything is behaving correctly. The, the problem is that these things often don't behave correctly, and then the consequence of them not behaving correctly. It's really dire because it's at that lowest layer of the system. So, I mean, I'll give you a concrete example. [00:19:07] Bryan: a customer of theirs reported to me, so I won't disclose the vendor, but let's just say that a well-known vendor had an issue with their, their temperature sensors were broken. Um, and the thing would always read basically the wrong value. So it was the BMC that had to like, invent its own ki a different kind of thermal control loop. [00:19:28] Bryan: And it would index on the, on the, the, the, the actual inrush current. It would, they would look at that at the current that's going into the CPU to adjust the fan speed. That's a great example of something like that's a, that's an interesting idea. That doesn't work. 'cause that's actually not the temperature. [00:19:45] Bryan: So like that software would crank the fans whenever you had an inrush of current and this customer had a workload that would spike the current and by it, when it would spike the current, the, the, the fans would kick up and then they would slowly degrade over time. Well, this workload was spiking the current faster than the fans would degrade, but not fast enough to actually heat up the part. [00:20:08] Bryan: And ultimately over a very long time, in a very painful investigation, it's customer determined that like my fans are cranked in my data center for no reason. We're blowing cold air. And it's like that, this is on the order of like a hundred watts, a server of, of energy that you shouldn't be spending and like that ultimately what that go comes down to this kind of broken software hardware interface at the lowest layer that has real meaningful consequence, uh, in terms of hundreds of kilowatts, um, across a data center. So this stuff has, has very, very, very real consequence and it's such a shadowy world. Part of the reason that, that your listeners that have dealt with this, that our heads will hit the desk is because it is really aggravating to deal with problems with this layer. [00:21:01] Bryan: You, you feel powerless. You don't control or really see the software that's on them. It's generally proprietary. You are relying on your vendor. Your vendor is telling you that like, boy, I don't know. You're the only customer seeing this. I mean, the number of times I have heard that for, and I, I have pledged that we're, we're not gonna say that at oxide because it's such an unaskable thing to say like, you're the only customer saying this. [00:21:25] Bryan: It's like, it feels like, are you blaming me for my problem? Feels like you're blaming me for my problem? Um, and what you begin to realize is that to a degree, these folks are speaking their own truth because the, the folks that are running at real scale at Hyperscale, those folks aren't Dell, HP super micro customers. [00:21:46] Bryan: They're actually, they've done their own thing. So it's like, yeah, Dell's not seeing that problem, um, because they're not running at the same scale. Um, but when you do run, you only have to run at modest scale before these things just become. Overwhelming in terms of the, the headwind that they present to people that wanna deploy infrastructure. The problem is felt with just a few racks [00:22:05] Jeremy: Yeah, so maybe to help people get some perspective at, at what point do you think that people start noticing or start feeling these problems? Because I imagine that if you're just have a few racks or [00:22:22] Bryan: do you have a couple racks or the, or do you wonder or just wondering because No, no, no. I would think, I think anyone who deploys any number of servers, especially now, especially if your experience is only in the cloud, you're gonna be like, what the hell is this? I mean, just again, just to get this thing working at all. [00:22:39] Bryan: It is so it, it's so hairy and so congealed, right? It's not designed. Um, and it, it, it, it's accreted it and it's so obviously accreted that you are, I mean, nobody who is setting up a rack of servers is gonna think to themselves like, yes, this is the right way to go do it. This all makes sense because it's, it's just not, it, I, it feels like the kit, I mean, kit car's almost too generous because it implies that there's like a set of plans to work to in the end. [00:23:08] Bryan: Uh, I mean, it, it, it's a bag of bolts. It's a bunch of parts that you're putting together. And so even at the smallest scales, that stuff is painful. Just architecturally, it's painful at the small scale then, but at least you can get it working. I think the stuff that then becomes debilitating at larger scale are the things that are, are worse than just like, I can't, like this thing is a mess to get working. [00:23:31] Bryan: It's like the, the, the fan issue that, um, where you are now seeing this over, you know, hundreds of machines or thousands of machines. Um, so I, it is painful at more or less all levels of scale. There's, there is no level at which the, the, the pc, which is really what this is, this is a, the, the personal computer architecture from the 1980s and there is really no level of scale where that's the right unit. Running elastic infrastructure is the hardware but also, hypervisor, distributed database, api, etc [00:23:57] Bryan: I mean, where that's the right thing to go deploy, especially if what you are trying to run. Is elastic infrastructure, a cloud. Because the other thing is like we, we've kinda been talking a lot about that hardware layer. Like hardware is, is just the start. Like you actually gotta go put software on that and actually run that as elastic infrastructure. [00:24:16] Bryan: So you need a hypervisor. Yes. But you need a lot more than that. You, you need to actually, you, you need a distributed database, you need web endpoints. You need, you need a CLI, you need all the stuff that you need to actually go run an actual service of compute or networking or storage. I mean, and for, for compute, even for compute, there's a ton of work to be done. [00:24:39] Bryan: And compute is by far, I would say the simplest of the, of the three. When you look at like networks, network services, storage services, there's a whole bunch of stuff that you need to go build in terms of distributed systems to actually offer that as a cloud. So it, I mean, it is painful at more or less every LE level if you are trying to deploy cloud computing on. What's a control plane? [00:25:00] Jeremy: And for someone who doesn't have experience building or working with this type of infrastructure, when you talk about a control plane, what, what does that do in the context of this system? [00:25:16] Bryan: So control plane is the thing that is, that is everything between your API request and that infrastructure actually being acted upon. So you go say, Hey, I, I want a provision, a vm. Okay, great. We've got a whole bunch of things we're gonna provision with that. We're gonna provision a vm, we're gonna get some storage that's gonna go along with that, that's got a network storage service that's gonna come out of, uh, we've got a virtual network that we're gonna either create or attach to. [00:25:39] Bryan: We've got a, a whole bunch of things we need to go do for that. For all of these things, there are metadata components that need, we need to keep track of this thing that, beyond the actual infrastructure that we create. And then we need to go actually, like act on the actual compute elements, the hostos, what have you, the switches, what have you, and actually go. [00:25:56] Bryan: Create these underlying things and then connect them. And there's of course, the challenge of just getting that working is a big challenge. Um, but getting that working robustly, getting that working is, you know, when you go to provision of vm, um, the, all the, the, the steps that need to happen and what happens if one of those steps fails along the way? [00:26:17] Bryan: What happens if, you know, one thing we're very mindful of is these kind of, you get these long tails of like, why, you know, generally our VM provisioning happened within this time, but we get these long tails where it takes much longer. What's going on? What, where in this process are we, are we actually spending time? [00:26:33] Bryan: Uh, and there's a whole lot of complexity that you need to go deal with that. There's a lot of complexity that you need to go deal with this effectively, this workflow that's gonna go create these things and manage them. Um, we use a, a pattern that we call, that are called sagas, actually is a, is a database pattern from the eighties. [00:26:51] Bryan: Uh, Katie McCaffrey is a, is a database reCrcher who, who, uh, I, I think, uh, reintroduce the idea of, of sagas, um, in the last kind of decade. Um, and this is something that we picked up, um, and I've done a lot of really interesting things with, um, to allow for, to this kind of, these workflows to be, to be managed and done so robustly in a way that you can restart them and so on. [00:27:16] Bryan: Uh, and then you guys, you get this whole distributed system that can do all this. That whole distributed system, that itself needs to be reliable and available. So if you, you know, you need to be able to, what happens if you, if you pull a sled or if a sled fails, how does the system deal with that? [00:27:33] Bryan: How does the system deal with getting an another sled added to the system? Like how do you actually grow this distributed system? And then how do you update it? How do you actually go from one version to the next? And all of that has to happen across an air gap where this is gonna run as part of the computer. [00:27:49] Bryan: So there are, it, it is fractally complicated. There, there is a lot of complexity here in, in software, in the software system and all of that. We kind of, we call the control plane. Um, and it, this is the what exists at AWS at GCP, at Azure. When you are hitting an endpoint that's provisioning an EC2 instance for you. [00:28:10] Bryan: There is an AWS control plane that is, is doing all of this and has, uh, some of these similar aspects and certainly some of these similar challenges. Are vSphere / Proxmox / Hyper-V in the same category? [00:28:20] Jeremy: And for people who have run their own servers with something like say VMware or Hyper V or Proxmox, are those in the same category? [00:28:32] Bryan: Yeah, I mean a little bit. I mean, it kind of like vSphere Yes. Via VMware. No. So it's like you, uh, VMware ESX is, is kind of a key building block upon which you can build something that is a more meaningful distributed system. When it's just like a machine that you're provisioning VMs on, it's like, okay, well that's actually, you as the human might be the control plane. [00:28:52] Bryan: Like, that's, that, that's, that's a much easier problem. Um, but when you've got, you know, tens, hundreds, thousands of machines, you need to do it robustly. You need something to coordinate that activity and you know, you need to pick which sled you land on. You need to be able to move these things. You need to be able to update that whole system. [00:29:06] Bryan: That's when you're getting into a control plane. So, you know, some of these things have kind of edged into a control plane, certainly VMware. Um, now Broadcom, um, has delivered something that's kind of cloudish. Um, I think that for folks that are truly born on the cloud, it, it still feels somewhat, uh, like you're going backwards in time when you, when you look at these kind of on-prem offerings. [00:29:29] Bryan: Um, but, but it, it, it's got these aspects to it for sure. Um, and I think that we're, um, some of these other things when you're just looking at KVM or just looks looking at Proxmox you kind of need to, to connect it to other broader things to turn it into something that really looks like manageable infrastructure. [00:29:47] Bryan: And then many of those projects are really, they're either proprietary projects, uh, proprietary products like vSphere, um, or you are really dealing with open source projects that are. Not necessarily aimed at the same level of scale. Um, you know, you look at a, again, Proxmox or, uh, um, you'll get an OpenStack. [00:30:05] Bryan: Um, and you know, OpenStack is just a lot of things, right? I mean, OpenStack has got so many, the OpenStack was kind of a, a free for all, for every infrastructure vendor. Um, and I, you know, there was a time people were like, don't you, aren't you worried about all these companies together that, you know, are coming together for OpenStack? [00:30:24] Bryan: I'm like, haven't you ever worked for like a company? Like, companies don't get along. By the way, it's like having multiple companies work together on a thing that's bad news, not good news. And I think, you know, one of the things that OpenStack has definitely struggled with, kind of with what, actually the, the, there's so many different kind of vendor elements in there that it's, it's very much not a product, it's a project that you're trying to run. [00:30:47] Bryan: But that's, but that very much is in, I mean, that's, that's similar certainly in spirit. [00:30:53] Jeremy: And so I think this is kind of like you're alluding to earlier, the piece that allows you to allocate, compute, storage, manage networking, gives you that experience of I can go to a web console or I can use an API and I can spin up machines, get them all connected. At the end of the day, the control plane. Is allowing you to do that in hopefully a user-friendly way. [00:31:21] Bryan: That's right. Yep. And in the, I mean, in order to do that in a modern way, it's not just like a user-friendly way. You really need to have a CLI and a web UI and an API. Those all need to be drawn from the same kind of single ground truth. Like you don't wanna have any of those be an afterthought for the other. [00:31:39] Bryan: You wanna have the same way of generating all of those different endpoints and, and entries into the system. Building a control plane now has better tools (Rust, CockroachDB) [00:31:46] Jeremy: And if you take your time at Joyent as an example. What kind of tools existed for that versus how much did you have to build in-house for as far as the hypervisor and managing the compute and all that? [00:32:02] Bryan: Yeah, so we built more or less everything in house. I mean, what you have is, um, and I think, you know, over time we've gotten slightly better tools. Um, I think, and, and maybe it's a little bit easier to talk about the, kind of the tools we started at Oxide because we kind of started with a, with a clean sheet of paper at oxide. [00:32:16] Bryan: We wanted to, knew we wanted to go build a control plane, but we were able to kind of go revisit some of the components. So actually, and maybe I'll, I'll talk about some of those changes. So when we, at, For example, at Joyent, when we were building a cloud at Joyent, there wasn't really a good distributed database. [00:32:34] Bryan: Um, so we were using Postgres as our database for metadata and there were a lot of challenges. And Postgres is not a distributed database. It's running. With a primary secondary architecture, and there's a bunch of issues there, many of which we discovered the hard way. Um, when we were coming to oxide, you have much better options to pick from in terms of distributed databases. [00:32:57] Bryan: You know, we, there was a period that now seems maybe potentially brief in hindsight, but of a really high quality open source distributed databases. So there were really some good ones to, to pick from. Um, we, we built on CockroachDB on CRDB. Um, so that was a really important component. That we had at oxide that we didn't have at Joyent. [00:33:19] Bryan: Um, so we were, I wouldn't say we were rolling our own distributed database, we were just using Postgres and uh, and, and dealing with an enormous amount of pain there in terms of the surround. Um, on top of that, and, and, you know, a, a control plane is much more than a database, obviously. Uh, and you've gotta deal with, uh, there's a whole bunch of software that you need to go, right. [00:33:40] Bryan: Um, to be able to, to transform these kind of API requests into something that is reliable infrastructure, right? And there, there's a lot to that. Uh, especially when networking gets in the mix, when storage gets in the mix, uh, there are a whole bunch of like complicated steps that need to be done, um, at Joyent. [00:33:59] Bryan: Um, we, in part because of the history of the company and like, look. This, this just is not gonna sound good, but it just is what it is and I'm just gonna own it. We did it all in Node, um, at Joyent, which I, I, I know it sounds really right now, just sounds like, well, you, you built it with Tinker Toys. You Okay. [00:34:18] Bryan: Uh, did, did you think it was, you built the skyscraper with Tinker Toys? Uh, it's like, well, okay. We actually, we had greater aspirations for the Tinker Toys once upon a time, and it was better than, you know, than Twisted Python and Event Machine from Ruby, and we weren't gonna do it in Java. All right. [00:34:32] Bryan: So, but let's just say that that experiment, uh, that experiment did ultimately end in a predictable fashion. Um, and, uh, we, we decided that maybe Node was not gonna be the best decision long term. Um, Joyent was the company behind node js. Uh, back in the day, Ryan Dahl worked for Joyent. Uh, and then, uh, then we, we, we. [00:34:53] Bryan: Uh, landed that in a foundation in about, uh, what, 2015, something like that. Um, and began to consider our world beyond, uh, beyond Node. Rust at Oxide [00:35:04] Bryan: A big tool that we had in the arsenal when we started Oxide is Rust. Um, and so indeed the name of the company is, is a tip of the hat to the language that we were pretty sure we were gonna be building a lot of stuff in. [00:35:16] Bryan: Namely Rust. And, uh, rust is, uh, has been huge for us, a very important revolution in programming languages. you know, there, there, there have been different people kind of coming in at different times and I kinda came to Rust in what I, I think is like this big kind of second expansion of rust in 2018 when a lot of technologists were think, uh, sick of Node and also sick of Go. [00:35:43] Bryan: And, uh, also sick of C++. And wondering is there gonna be something that gives me the, the, the performance, of that I get outta C. The, the robustness that I can get out of a C program but is is often difficult to achieve. but can I get that with kind of some, some of the velocity of development, although I hate that term, some of the speed of development that you get out of a more interpreted language. [00:36:08] Bryan: Um, and then by the way, can I actually have types, I think types would be a good idea? Uh, and rust obviously hits the sweet spot of all of that. Um, it has been absolutely huge for us. I mean, we knew when we started the company again, oxide, uh, we were gonna be using rust in, in quite a, quite a. Few places, but we weren't doing it by fiat. [00:36:27] Bryan: Um, we wanted to actually make sure we're making the right decision, um, at, at every different, at every layer. Uh, I think what has been surprising is the sheer number of layers at which we use rust in terms of, we've done our own embedded firmware in rust. We've done, um, in, in the host operating system, which is still largely in C, but very big components are in rust. [00:36:47] Bryan: The hypervisor Propolis is all in rust. Uh, and then of course the control plane, that distributed system on that is all in rust. So that was a very important thing that we very much did not need to build ourselves. We were able to really leverage, uh, a terrific community. Um. We were able to use, uh, and we've done this at Joyent as well, but at Oxide, we've used Illumos as a hostos component, which, uh, our variant is called Helios. [00:37:11] Bryan: Um, we've used, uh, bhyve um, as a, as as that kind of internal hypervisor component. we've made use of a bunch of different open source components to build this thing, um, which has been really, really important for us. Uh, and open source components that didn't exist even like five years prior. [00:37:28] Bryan: That's part of why we felt that 2019 was the right time to start the company. And so we started Oxide. The problems building a control plane in Node [00:37:34] Jeremy: You had mentioned that at Joyent, you had tried to build this in, in Node. What were the, what were the, the issues or the, the challenges that you had doing that? [00:37:46] Bryan: Oh boy. Yeah. again, we, I kind of had higher hopes in 2010, I would say. When we, we set on this, um, the, the, the problem that we had just writ large, um. JavaScript is really designed to allow as many people on earth to write a program as possible, which is good. I mean, I, I, that's a, that's a laudable goal. [00:38:09] Bryan: That is the goal ultimately of such as it is of JavaScript. It's actually hard to know what the goal of JavaScript is, unfortunately, because Brendan Ike never actually wrote a book. so that there is not a canonical, you've got kind of Doug Crockford and other people who've written things on JavaScript, but it's hard to know kind of what the original intent of JavaScript is. [00:38:27] Bryan: The name doesn't even express original intent, right? It was called Live Script, and it was kind of renamed to JavaScript during the Java Frenzy of the late nineties. A name that makes no sense. There is no Java in JavaScript. that is kind of, I think, revealing to kind of the, uh, the unprincipled mess that is JavaScript. [00:38:47] Bryan: It, it, it's very pragmatic at some level, um, and allows anyone to, it makes it very easy to write software. The problem is it's much more difficult to write really rigorous software. So, uh, and this is what I should differentiate JavaScript from TypeScript. This is really what TypeScript is trying to solve. [00:39:07] Bryan: TypeScript is like. How can, I think TypeScript is a, is a great step forward because TypeScript is like, how can we bring some rigor to this? Like, yes, it's great that it's easy to write JavaScript, but that's not, we, we don't wanna do that for Absolutely. I mean that, that's not the only problem we solve. [00:39:23] Bryan: We actually wanna be able to write rigorous software and it's actually okay if it's a little harder to write rigorous software that's actually okay if it gets leads to, to more rigorous artifacts. Um, but in JavaScript, I mean, just a concrete example. You know, there's nothing to prevent you from referencing a property that doesn't actually exist in JavaScript. [00:39:43] Bryan: So if you fat finger a property name, you are relying on something to tell you. By the way, I think you've misspelled this because there is no type definition for this thing. And I don't know that you've got one that's spelled correctly, one that's spelled incorrectly, that's often undefined. And then the, when you actually go, you say you've got this typo that is lurking in your what you want to be rigorous software. [00:40:07] Bryan: And if you don't execute that code, like you won't know that's there. And then you do execute that code. And now you've got a, you've got an undefined object. And now that's either gonna be an exception or it can, again, depends on how that's handled. It can be really difficult to determine the origin of that, of, of that error, of that programming. [00:40:26] Bryan: And that is a programmer error. And one of the big challenges that we had with Node is that programmer errors and operational errors, like, you know, I'm out of disk space as an operational error. Those get conflated and it becomes really hard. And in fact, I think the, the language wanted to make it easier to just kind of, uh, drive on in the event of all errors. [00:40:53] Bryan: And it's like, actually not what you wanna do if you're trying to build a reliable, robust system. So we had. No end of issues. [00:41:01] Bryan: We've got a lot of experience developing rigorous systems, um, again coming out of operating systems development and so on. And we want, we brought some of that rigor, if strangely, to JavaScript. So one of the things that we did is we brought a lot of postmortem, diagnos ability and observability to node. [00:41:18] Bryan: And so if, if one of our node processes. Died in production, we would actually get a core dump from that process, a core dump that we could actually meaningfully process. So we did a bunch of kind of wild stuff. I mean, actually wild stuff where we could actually make sense of the JavaScript objects in a binary core dump. JavaScript values ease of getting started over robustness [00:41:41] Bryan: Um, and things that we thought were really important, and this is the, the rest of the world just looks at this being like, what the hell is this? I mean, it's so out of step with it. The problem is that we were trying to bridge two disconnected cultures of one developing really. Rigorous software and really designing it for production, diagnosability and the other, really designing it to software to run in the browser and for anyone to be able to like, you know, kind of liven up a webpage, right? [00:42:10] Bryan: Is kinda the origin of, of live script and then JavaScript. And we were kind of the only ones sitting at the intersection of that. And you begin when you are the only ones sitting at that kind of intersection. You just are, you're, you're kind of fighting a community all the time. And we just realized that we are, there were so many things that the community wanted to do that we felt are like, no, no, this is gonna make software less diagnosable. It's gonna make it less robust. The NodeJS split and why people left [00:42:36] Bryan: And then you realize like, I'm, we're the only voice in the room because we have got, we have got desires for this language that it doesn't have for itself. And this is when you realize you're in a bad relationship with software. It's time to actually move on. And in fact, actually several years after, we'd already kind of broken up with node. [00:42:55] Bryan: Um, and it was like, it was a bit of an acrimonious breakup. there was a, uh, famous slash infamous fork of node called IoJS Um, and this was viewed because people, the community, thought that Joyent was being what was not being an appropriate steward of node js and was, uh, not allowing more things to come into to, to node. [00:43:19] Bryan: And of course, the reason that we of course, felt that we were being a careful steward and we were actively resisting those things that would cut against its fitness for a production system. But it's some way the community saw it and they, and forked, um, and, and I think the, we knew before the fork that's like, this is not working and we need to get this thing out of our hands. Platform is a reflection of values node summit talk [00:43:43] Bryan: And we're are the wrong hands for this? This needs to be in a foundation. Uh, and so we kind of gone through that breakup, uh, and maybe it was two years after that. That, uh, friend of mine who was um, was running the, uh, the node summit was actually, it's unfortunately now passed away. Charles er, um, but Charles' venture capitalist great guy, and Charles was running Node Summit and came to me in 2017. [00:44:07] Bryan: He is like, I really want you to keynote Node Summit. And I'm like, Charles, I'm not gonna do that. I've got nothing nice to say. Like, this is the, the, you don't want, I'm the last person you wanna keynote. He's like, oh, if you have nothing nice to say, you should definitely keynote. You're like, oh God, okay, here we go. [00:44:22] Bryan: He's like, no, I really want you to talk about, like, you should talk about the Joyent breakup with NodeJS. I'm like, oh man. [00:44:29] Bryan: And that led to a talk that I'm really happy that I gave, 'cause it was a very important talk for me personally. Uh, called Platform is a reflection of values and really looking at the values that we had for Node and the values that Node had for itself. And they didn't line up. [00:44:49] Bryan: And the problem is that the values that Node had for itself and the values that we had for Node are all kind of positives, right? Like there's nobody in the node community who's like, I don't want rigor, I hate rigor. It's just that if they had the choose between rigor and making the language approachable. [00:45:09] Bryan: They would choose approachability every single time. They would never choose rigor. And, you know, that was a, that was a big eye-opener. I do, I would say, if you watch this talk. [00:45:20] Bryan: because I knew that there's, like, the audience was gonna be filled with, with people who, had been a part of the fork in 2014, I think was the, the, the, the fork, the IOJS fork. And I knew that there, there were, there were some, you know, some people that were, um, had been there for the fork and. [00:45:41] Bryan: I said a little bit of a trap for the audience. But the, and the trap, I said, you know what, I, I kind of talked about the values that we had and the aspirations we had for Node, the aspirations that Node had for itself and how they were different. [00:45:53] Bryan: And, you know, and I'm like, look in, in, in hindsight, like a fracture was inevitable. And in 2014 there was finally a fracture. And do people know what happened in 2014? And if you, if you, you could listen to that talk, everyone almost says in unison, like IOJS. I'm like, oh right. IOJS. Right. That's actually not what I was thinking of. [00:46:19] Bryan: And I go to the next slide and is a tweet from a guy named TJ Holloway, Chuck, who was the most prolific contributor to Node. And it was his tweet also in 2014 before the fork, before the IOJS fork explaining that he was leaving Node and that he was going to go. And you, if you turn the volume all the way up, you can hear the audience gasp. [00:46:41] Bryan: And it's just delicious because the community had never really come, had never really confronted why TJ left. Um, there. And I went through a couple folks, Felix, bunch of other folks, early Node folks. That were there in 2010, were leaving in 2014, and they were going to go primarily, and they were going to go because they were sick of the same things that we were sick of. [00:47:09] Bryan: They, they, they had hit the same things that we had hit and they were frustrated. I I really do believe this, that platforms do reflect their own values. And when you are making a software decision, you are selecting value. [00:47:26] Bryan: You should select values that align with the values that you have for that software. That is, those are, that's way more important than other things that people look at. I think people look at, for example, quote unquote community size way too frequently, community size is like. Eh, maybe it can be fine. [00:47:44] Bryan: I've been in very large communities, node. I've been in super small open source communities like AUMs and RAs, a bunch of others. there are strengths and weaknesses to both approaches just as like there's a strength to being in a big city versus a small town. Me personally, I'll take the small community more or less every time because the small community is almost always self-selecting based on values and just for the same reason that I like working at small companies or small teams. [00:48:11] Bryan: There's a lot of value to be had in a small community. It's not to say that large communities are valueless, but again, long answer to your question of kind of where did things go south with Joyent and node. They went south because the, the values that we had and the values the community had didn't line up and that was a very educational experience, as you might imagine. [00:48:33] Jeremy: Yeah. And, and given that you mentioned how, because of those values, some people moved from Node to go, and in the end for much of what oxide is building. You ended up using rust. What, what would you say are the, the values of go and and rust, and how did you end up choosing Rust given that. Go's decisions regarding generics, versioning, compilation speed priority [00:48:56] Bryan: Yeah, I mean, well, so the value for, yeah. And so go, I mean, I understand why people move from Node to Go, go to me was kind of a lateral move. Um, there were a bunch of things that I, uh, go was still garbage collected, um, which I didn't like. Um, go also is very strange in terms of there are these kind of like. [00:49:17] Bryan: These autocratic kind of decisions that are very bizarre. Um, there, I mean, generics is kind of a famous one, right? Where go kind of as a point of principle didn't have generics, even though go itself actually the innards of go did have generics. It's just that you a go user weren't allowed to have them. [00:49:35] Bryan: And you know, it's kind of, there was, there was an old cartoon years and years ago about like when a, when a technologist is telling you that something is technically impossible, that actually means I don't feel like it. Uh, and there was a certain degree of like, generics are technically impossible and go, it's like, Hey, actually there are. [00:49:51] Bryan: And so there was, and I just think that the arguments against generics were kind of disingenuous. Um, and indeed, like they ended up adopting generics and then there's like some super weird stuff around like, they're very anti-assertion, which is like, what, how are you? Why are you, how is someone against assertions, it doesn't even make any sense, but it's like, oh, nope. [00:50:10] Bryan: Okay. There's a whole scree on it. Nope, we're against assertions and the, you know, against versioning. There was another thing like, you know, the Rob Pike has kind of famously been like, you should always just run on the way to commit. And you're like, does that, is that, does that make sense? I mean this, we actually built it. [00:50:26] Bryan: And so there are a bunch of things like that. You're just like, okay, this is just exhausting and. I mean, there's some things about Go that are great and, uh, plenty of other things that I just, I'm not a fan of. Um, I think that the, in the end, like Go cares a lot about like compile time. It's super important for Go Right? [00:50:44] Bryan: Is very quick, compile time. I'm like, okay. But that's like compile time is not like, it's not unimportant, it's doesn't have zero importance. But I've got other things that are like lots more important than that. Um, what I really care about is I want a high performing artifact. I wanted garbage collection outta my life. Don't think garbage collection has good trade offs [00:51:00] Bryan: I, I gotta tell you, I, I like garbage collection to me is an embodiment of this like, larger problem of where do you put cognitive load in the software development process. And what garbage collection is saying to me it is right for plenty of other people and the software that they wanna develop. [00:51:21] Bryan: But for me and the software that I wanna develop, infrastructure software, I don't want garbage collection because I can solve the memory allocation problem. I know when I'm like, done with something or not. I mean, it's like I, whether that's in, in C with, I mean it's actually like, it's really not that hard to not leak memory in, in a C base system. [00:51:44] Bryan: And you can. give yourself a lot of tooling that allows you to diagnose where memory leaks are coming from. So it's like that is a solvable problem. There are other challenges with that, but like, when you are developing a really sophisticated system that has garbage collection is using garbage collection. [00:51:59] Bryan: You spend as much time trying to dork with the garbage collector to convince it to collect the thing that you know is garbage. You are like, I've got this thing. I know it's garbage. Now I need to use these like tips and tricks to get the garbage collector. I mean, it's like, it feels like every Java performance issue goes to like minus xx call and use the other garbage collector, whatever one you're using, use a different one and using a different, a different approach. [00:52:23] Bryan: It's like, so you're, you're in this, to me, it's like you're in the worst of all worlds where. the reason that garbage collection is helpful is because the programmer doesn't have to think at all about this problem. But now you're actually dealing with these long pauses in production. [00:52:38] Bryan: You're dealing with all these other issues where actually you need to think a lot about it. And it's kind of, it, it it's witchcraft. It, it, it's this black box that you can't see into. So it's like, what problem have we solved exactly? And I mean, so the fact that go had garbage collection, it's like, eh, no, I, I do not want, like, and then you get all the other like weird fatwahs and you know, everything else. [00:52:57] Bryan: I'm like, no, thank you. Go is a no thank you for me, I, I get it why people like it or use it, but it's, it's just, that was not gonna be it. Choosing Rust [00:53:04] Bryan: I'm like, I want C. but I, there are things I didn't like about C too. I was looking for something that was gonna give me the deterministic kind of artifact that I got outta C. But I wanted library support and C is tough because there's, it's all convention. you know, there's just a bunch of other things that are just thorny. And I remember thinking vividly in 2018, I'm like, well, it's rust or bust. Ownership model, algebraic types, error handling [00:53:28] Bryan: I'm gonna go into rust. And, uh, I hope I like it because if it's not this, it's gonna like, I'm gonna go back to C I'm like literally trying to figure out what the language is for the back half of my career. Um, and when I, you know, did what a lot of people were doing at that time and people have been doing since of, you know, really getting into rust and really learning it, appreciating the difference in the, the model for sure, the ownership model people talk about. [00:53:54] Bryan: That's also obviously very important. It was the error handling that blew me away. And the idea of like algebraic types, I never really had algebraic types. Um, and the ability to, to have. And for error handling is one of these really, uh, you, you really appreciate these things where it's like, how do you deal with a, with a function that can either succeed and return something or it can fail, and the way c deals with that is bad with these kind of sentinels for errors. [00:54:27] Bryan: And, you know, does negative one mean success? Does negative one mean failure? Does zero mean failure? Some C functions, zero means failure. Traditionally in Unix, zero means success. And like, what if you wanna return a file descriptor, you know, it's like, oh. And then it's like, okay, then it'll be like zero through positive N will be a valid result. [00:54:44] Bryan: Negative numbers will be, and like, was it negative one and I said airo, or is it a negative number that did not, I mean, it's like, and that's all convention, right? People do all, all those different things and it's all convention and it's easy to get wrong, easy to have bugs, can't be statically checked and so on. Um, and then what Go says is like, well, you're gonna have like two return values and then you're gonna have to like, just like constantly check all of these all the time. Um, which is also kind of gross. Um, JavaScript is like, Hey, let's toss an exception. If, if we don't like something, if we see an error, we'll, we'll throw an exception. [00:55:15] Bryan: There are a bunch of reasons I don't like that. Um, and you look, you'll get what Rust does, where it's like, no, no, no. We're gonna have these algebra types, which is to say this thing can be a this thing or that thing, but it, but it has to be one of these. And by the way, you don't get to process this thing until you conditionally match on one of these things. [00:55:35] Bryan: You're gonna have to have a, a pattern match on this thing to determine if it's a this or a that, and if it in, in the result type that you, the result is a generic where it's like, it's gonna be either the thing that you wanna return. It's gonna be an okay that contains the thing you wanna return, or it's gonna be an error that contains your error and it forces your code to deal with that. [00:55:57] Bryan: And what that does is it shifts the cognitive load from the person that is operating this thing in production to the, the actual developer that is in development. And I think that that, that to me is like, I, I love that shift. Um, and that shift to me is really important. Um, and that's what I was missing, that that's what Rust gives you. [00:56:23] Bryan: Rust forces you to think about your code as you write it, but as a result, you have an artifact that is much more supportable, much more sustainable, and much faster. Prefer to frontload cognitive load during development instead of at runtime [00:56:34] Jeremy: Yeah, it sounds like you would rather take the time during the development to think about these issues because whether it's garbage collection or it's error handling at runtime when you're trying to solve a problem, then it's much more difficult than having dealt with it to start with. [00:56:57] Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. I, and I just think that like, why also, like if it's software, if it's, again, if it's infrastructure software, I mean the kinda the question that you, you should have when you're writing software is how long is this software gonna live? How many people are gonna use this software? Uh, and if you are writing an operating system, the answer for this thing that you're gonna write, it's gonna live for a long time. [00:57:18] Bryan: Like, if we just look at plenty of aspects of the system that have been around for a, for decades, it's gonna live for a long time and many, many, many people are gonna use it. Why would we not expect people writing that software to have more cognitive load when they're writing it to give us something that's gonna be a better artifact? [00:57:38] Bryan: Now conversely, you're like, Hey, I kind of don't care about this. And like, I don't know, I'm just like, I wanna see if this whole thing works. I've got, I like, I'm just stringing this together. I don't like, no, the software like will be lucky if it survives until tonight, but then like, who cares? Yeah. Yeah. [00:57:52] Bryan: Gar garbage clock. You know, if you're prototyping something, whatever. And this is why you really do get like, you know, different choices, different technology choices, depending on the way that you wanna solve the problem at hand. And for the software that I wanna write, I do like that cognitive load that is upfront. With LLMs maybe you can get the benefit of the robust artifact with less cognitive load [00:58:10] Bryan: Um, and although I think, I think the thing that is really wild that is the twist that I don't think anyone really saw coming is that in a, in an LLM age. That like the cognitive load upfront almost needs an asterisk on it because so much of that can be assisted by an LLM. And now, I mean, I would like to believe, and maybe this is me being optimistic, that the the, in the LLM age, we will see, I mean, rust is a great fit for the LLMH because the LLM itself can get a lot of feedback about whether the software that's written is correct or not. [00:58:44] Bryan: Much more so than you can for other environments. [00:58:48] Jeremy: Yeah, that is a interesting point in that I think when people first started trying out the LLMs to code, it was really good at these maybe looser languages like Python or JavaScript, and initially wasn't so good at something like Rust. But it sounds like as that improves, if. It can write it then because of the rigor or the memory management or the error handling that the language is forcing you to do, it might actually end up being a better choice for people using LLMs. [00:59:27] Bryan: absolutely. I, it, it gives you more certainty in the artifact that you've delivered. I mean, you know a lot about a Rust program that compiles correctly. I mean, th there are certain classes of errors that you don't have, um, that you actually don't know on a C program or a GO program or a, a JavaScript program. [00:59:46] Bryan: I think that's gonna be really important. I think we are on the cusp. Maybe we've already seen it, this kind of great bifurcation in the software that we writ

In January 2024, co-founder of Thornbridge Brewery, Simon Webster received an email from Garrett Oliver. He'd heard a rumour that Carlsberg Britvic, the now owners of Marston's Brewery in Burton-upon-Trent, were “laying the union to rest.” The Brooklyn brewmaster continued to ask Simon if he'd be interested in taking a set, in turn saving it from being permanently erased from British brewing history. Six months later, after Simon and Thornbridge's brewing director Rob Lovatt had visited Burton to assess the situation, a single Union set was delivered to their brewery in Bakewell, Derbyshire. In the months since, it has become a focal point for their brewery, and something that has stirred plenty of excitement in the process. This has no doubt been assisted by the fact it's been used to produce some exciting collaborations, including with the likes of The Kernel and Odell Brewing. They've even produced a Strong Dark Mild with Garrett himself, a beer that would go on to become award-winning. In October 2025, host Matthew Curtis was invited to spend two days at Thornbridge and document a collaboration on the union system with Theakston Brewery of Masham, North Yorkshire. As the brewers set about making a version of the Yorkshire brewery's famous Masham Ale, Matthew set about filming, interviewing and documenting as much as he possibly could. The idea was to get to the heart of why the arrival of the Burton union at Thornbridge felt so significant. In this documentary-style episode of the Pellicle Podcast, you'll hear from several people at Thornbridge, including Simon Webster, Rob Lovatt, brewing manager Dominic Driscoll, and several others, plus Theakston's head brewer, Mark Slater. With plenty of analysis throughout, plus an original soundtrack composed by the host himself, this is the story of how Thornbridge saved the Burton Union. We're able to produce The Pellicle Podcast thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsor Get ‘Er Brewed. If you're enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

KiwiSaver holds $145 billion so why are so many Kiwis still heading for a broken retirement?In this episode, we're joined by Dean Anderson, Founder and CEO of Kernel, to unpack what's holding KiwiSaver back - from weak incentives and disengaged members to election-year policy risks, default fund underperformance, gaps for the self-employed, and why short-term political decisions could cost New Zealand decades of future wealth.For more money tips follow us on:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The content in this podcast is the opinion of the hosts. It should not be treated as financial advice. It is important to take into consideration your own personal situation and goals before making any financial decisions.

We were minutes away from shutting down our Matrix server when the Discord news hit. Now we're not just keeping it, we're doubling down. Can open source seize this moment?Sponsored By:Jupiter Party Annual Membership: Put your support on automatic with our annual plan, and get one month of membership for free! Managed Nebula: Meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. A decentralized VPN built on the open-source Nebula platform that we love. Support LINUX UnpluggedLinks:

The Bitcoin Kernel project is one of the most misunderstood developments in Bitcoin Core. In this conversation, Shinobi and Sedited explain how isolating validation logic increases flexibility, improves security, and enables alternative node implementations. From multi-process architecture to formal protocol specifications, this episode covers why kernel development matters now. #Bitcoin #BitcoinDevelopment #BitcoinCore⭐️⚔: SIGN UP WITH DUELBITS TODAY FOR A CHANCE TO WIN UP TO 2 BTC:

The news this week highlights shifts in Linux from multiple angles. What's evolving, why it matters, and that moment where the future actually works.Sponsored By:Jupiter Party Annual Membership: Put your support on automatic with our annual plan, and get one month of membership for free! Managed Nebula: Meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. A decentralized VPN built on the open-source Nebula platform that we love. Support LINUX UnpluggedLinks:

Bitcoin Core doesn't stand still even if consensus rules don't change. In this episode, Stéphan (Core Developer at Brink) explains how the Kernel and multiprocess projects are reshaping Bitcoin Core for long-term reliability. From modular validation logic to safer development workflows, this conversation shows why maintenance work matters. Hosted by Shinobi of Bitcoin Magazine.#BitcoinCore #BitcoinDevelopment #BitcoinKernel ⭐️⚔: SIGN UP WITH DUELBITS TODAY FOR A CHANCE TO WIN UP TO 2 BTC:

The news this week highlights shifts in Linux from multiple angles. What's evolving, why it matters, and that moment where the future actually works.

In our latest Open Source Startup Podcast episode, co-hosts Robby and Tim talk with Catherine Jue, Co-Founder and CEO of browser infrastructure company Kernel. Their open source images acts as a browsers-as-a-service for automations and web agents.In this episode, we break down what Kernel is building today and why browser infrastructure has quietly become one of the most important layers for AI agents. We talk about Kernel's focus on fast, low-latency cloud browsers, why performance matters more than people expect, and how developers can connect agents via APIs or MCP servers without spinning up heavy infrastructure themselves.We also explore the real-world use cases driving adoption - from a new wave of RPA for industries without APIs, to real-time web analysis, sales intelligence, and voice agents that need to respond instantly. Finally, we dig into Kernel's open-source, developer-first DNA, the technical bets behind its control plane and unikernel-based browsers, and why the team believes agentic workflows are still early, but inevitable.

Bryan Johnson is the founder of Braintree, Kernel, a futurist, biohacker and an author. Is it possible for humans to never die? In recent years, Bryan Johnson has drawn global attention for the extreme experiments he's running on his own body in pursuit of radical longevity. So what does the latest science actually say about his quest to live forever, and how close are we really to immortality? Expect to learn why it is our human obligation to fight against death, the most life-changing pivots Bryan made that helped him the most, how to get perfect sleep, what it takes to build an anti-fragile routine, the most important treatments that help increase your changes of living longer, how to improve your vascular health, how Bryan deals with complex emotions life grief, Bryan's strange prediction on how he might die and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT's most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get up to $350 off the Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week John Terrill from Red Hat joins us to talk about branding in Open Source. Many projects don't have a unified communication strategy, but having one is important. -- During The Show -- 00:50 Intro Steve is in Vegas Noah "getting deals" 04:37 Lossless Cut Reached for Avidemux Avoiding re-encoding Learning a new program Lossless Cut Webpage Lossless Cut GitHub 08:30 OmniTools Small docker image Does everything in the web browser OmniTools GitHub 12:43 NLSH For people who want to learn the CLI Translates natural language into CLI Making things easy can backfire NLSH GitHub 16:00 Xyops Features: Job scheduling Workflow automation Server monitoring Alerting Incident response Self Hosted Open Source Xyops 18:18 News Wire Squid 7.4 - github.com Openttd 15.1 - openttd.org Rust 1.93 - rust-lang.org GNU C lwn.net Extix - linux.exton.net Liya Linux 2.5 - distrowatch.com CachyOS 2026 - cachyos.org GNU Guix 1.5 - quix.gnu.org MxLinux 25.1 - mxlinux.org Crypto Thieves in Snap Store - helpnetsecurity.com Open Source Quantum Computer - uwaterloo.ca AI Weather Models - kqed.org Banks Prefer Open-Source - finainews.com Rack-Scale AI - theasset.com OIN 2.0 - yahoo.com 19:55 Python Built-in Web Server Use python to host a web server Used for file transfers Use case Steve's travel router 24:17 Proxy RCE - PSA Basics of the problem grahamhelton.com 26:30 Matter Camera 1920x1080 30fps Synology App to turn a phone into a camera linuxgizmos.com 30:06 MS Gives Keys to FBI Microsoft confirms they gave the FBI BitLocker keys ~ 20 requests per year Home users forced to upload keys Jump through hoops to avoid uploading Encryption is only as good as who holds the keys Pragmatism aardwolfsecurity.com ArsTechnica 35:20 Linux Continuity Continuity document merged into Kernel docs theregister.com 36:40 John Terrill PR in open source Branding open source One size fits all projects Extracting technical knowledge Technical accuracy How to talk with journalists Separating personal views from project views Negative coverage Messaging guidelines Branding and marketing Attracting media attention -- The Extra Credit Section -- For links to the articles and material referenced in this week's episode check out this week's page from our podcast dashboard! This Episode's Podcast Dashboard Phone Systems for Ask Noah provided by Voxtelesys Join us in our dedicated chatroom #GeekLab:linuxdelta.com on Matrix -- Stay In Touch -- Find all the resources for this show on the Ask Noah Dashboard Ask Noah Dashboard Need more help than a radio show can offer? Altispeed provides commercial IT services and they're excited to offer you a great deal for listening to the Ask Noah Show. Call today and ask about the discount for listeners of the Ask Noah Show! Altispeed Technologies Contact Noah live [at] asknoahshow.com -- Twitter -- Noah - Kernellinux Ask Noah Show Altispeed Technologies

1. I Was Involuntarily Committed to a Mental Institution. 2. This Was How God Answered my Prayer. 3. What I Thought Was the Worst Day of my Life Was the Beginning of Something Wonderful. 4. Jesus Died in Order to Bear Much Fruit. 5. Jesus' Death Is the Great Crisis of World History. 6. It Is Also the Casting Down of Satan. 7. The Cross Is the Great Crisis. 8. The Cross Changes the Focus on the Subjects of Redemption. 9. Jesus Is the Light of the World, and He Has Called us to Let our Light Shine. 10. What Does it Mean to Hate our Life in this World? 11. Sandy and I Have Enjoyed Great Fruitfulness over the Past Decade. 12. What Are you Holding onto?

Episode 157: In this episode of Critical Thinking - Bug Bounty Podcast we're joined by Hypr to talk about hacking Mediatek and his experiences with HackerOne and Pwn2Own Ecosystems.Follow us on twitter at: https://x.com/ctbbpodcastGot any ideas and suggestions? Feel free to send us any feedback here: info@criticalthinkingpodcast.ioShoutout to YTCracker for the awesome intro music!====== Links ======Follow your hosts Rhynorater, rez0 and gr3pme on X: https://x.com/Rhynoraterhttps://x.com/rez0__https://x.com/gr3pmeCritical Research Lab:https://lab.ctbb.show/ ====== Ways to Support CTBBPodcast ======Hop on the CTBB Discord at https://ctbb.show/discord!We also do Discord subs at $25, $10, and $5 - premium subscribers get access to private masterclasses, exploits, tools, scripts, un-redacted bug reports, etc.You can also find some hacker swag at https://ctbb.show/merch!Today's Guest: https://x.com/hyprdude====== This Week in Bug Bounty ======Top 10 web hacking techniques of 2025: call for nominationshttps://portswigger.net/research/top-10-web-hacking-techniques-of-2025-nominations-openCVE-2025-13467https://access.redhat.com/security/cve/cve-2025-13467====== Resources ======Hypr's Bloghttps://blog.coffinsec.commediatek? more like media-rekt, amirite.https://blog.coffinsec.com/0days/2025/12/15/more-like-mediarekt-amirite.htmlkernel-utilshttps://github.com/mellow-hype/kernel-utils====== Timestamps ======(00:00:00) Introduction(00:03:23) Heap Overflow in Mediatek Kernel Drivers(00:19:23) Kernel Debugging & ioctl Handlers (00:43:30) Input Structs, Sync to Source, & Privilege Escalation (00:51:30) HackerOne Ecosystem vs Pwn2Own Ecosystem (01:17:00) Kernel Utils(01:26:46) Real World Bugs for Exploit Development vs CTFs

This is a recap of the top 10 posts on Hacker News on January 08, 2026. This podcast was generated by wondercraft.ai (00:30): Bose has released API docs and opened the API for its EoL SoundTouch speakersOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46541892&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(01:50): Google AI Studio is now sponsoring Tailwind CSSOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46545077&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(03:11): The Jeff Dean FactsOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46540498&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(04:32): Open Infrastructure MapOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46536866&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(05:53): Project Patchouli: Open-source electromagnetic drawing tablet hardwareOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46537489&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(07:13): Iran Goes Into IPv6 BlackoutOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46542683&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(08:34): How to Code Claude Code in 200 Lines of CodeOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46545620&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(09:55): A closer look at a BGP anomaly in VenezuelaOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46538001&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(11:16): Minnesota officials say they can't access evidence after fatal ICE shootingOriginal post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46543457&utm_source=wondercraft_ai(12:36): Kernel bugs hide for 2 years on average. Some hide for 20Original post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46536340&utm_source=wondercraft_aiThis is a third-party project, independent from HN and YC. Text and audio generated using AI, by wondercraft.ai. Create your own studio quality podcast with text as the only input in seconds at app.wondercraft.ai. Issues or feedback? We'd love to hear from you: team@wondercraft.ai

This episode covers: • FDA Loosens Supplement Warning Labels The FDA is considering a rule change that would allow supplement companies to include the DSHEA disclaimer only once per package rather than next to every claim. Dave explains why fewer visible warnings could make marketing look more like medical claims, and why biohackers should treat labels as advertising rather than evidence. He shares how to protect yourself now: add one variable at a time, run baseline labs, and rely on data instead of packaging. Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-supplements-warning-label-rule-change-rfk-jr-rcna249321 • Quantum Sensors for Early Heart Attack Detection Mayo Clinic is testing a contactless heart-monitoring system called CardiAQ using quantum magnetic sensors and AI noise filtering. The device reads subtle electromagnetic signatures from the heart and compares them to invasive angiography. Dave breaks down why earlier detection of ischemia could shift heart care from reactive treatment to proactive screening — and why building baseline metrics like VO₂max, blood pressure and HRV today will pay off when next-gen diagnostics arrive. Source: https://www.sandboxaq.com/press/sandboxaq-collaborates-with-mayo-clinic-on-novel-cardiac-diagnostics • Sauna Detox for MicroplasticsEmerging research shows that sweating meaningfully removes plastic-related chemicals like BPA and phthalate metabolites from the body, often more efficiently than blood or urine alone. Sauna use amplifies this effect by increasing circulation, mobilizing stored toxins from tissues, and accelerating sweat-based excretion. When you combine regular heat exposure with reduced environmental plastic contact, you create a powerful detox strategy that targets a chemical burden once thought unavoidable. Dave breaks down how sauna protocols can support toxin elimination, improve cardiovascular resilience, strengthen autonomic balance, and help counteract the metabolic and hormonal disruptions linked to microplastics in modern life.Source: https://superage.com/can-you-sweat-out-microplastics-in-the-sauna/ • Psychedelics and Longevity Biomarkers Bryan Johnson treated a guided psilocybin experience as a structured longevity experiment, collecting nearly 250 biomarkers including CGM, stress markers, HRV and Kernel brain imaging. The experiment revealed a surprising metabolic change: mean glucose dropped 8 percent, variability fell 11 percent, and estimated HbA1c moved from 4.7 to 4.4 — similar to months of metformin but after a single session. Dave explores the emerging idea that neuroplastic events might influence glucose regulation through brain-pancreas signaling, while emphasizing the need for supervised, legal use and proper clinical trials. Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/bryan-johnson-trip-on-mushrooms-five-hours-live-2025-12 • A Mitochondrial Protein that Extends Mouse Lifespan Researchers boosted the mitochondrial protein COX7RP and extended mouse lifespan by ~6.6 percent while improving insulin sensitivity, lipid handling, endurance and liver fat metabolism. COX7RP supports formation of mitochondrial “supercomplexes,” improving respiratory efficiency and ATP generation. Dave explains how this reinforces lifestyle levers — strength training, aerobic capacity, stabilizing blood sugar — as tools that likely preserve supercomplex architecture and mitochondrial resilience. Source: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1109082 All source links provided for direct access to the original research and reporting. This episode is designed for biohackers, longevity seekers and high-performance listeners who want practical strategies rooted in cutting-edge science. Dave Asprey translates emerging research into actionable upgrades for your biology — from metabolism and mitochondria to nervous system health, detox, and prevention. New episodes every Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday. Keywords: FDA supplement rule change, supplement warning labels, DSHEA disclaimer removal, supplement regulation risks, quantum cardiac scanner, Mayo Clinic heart attack detection, AI heart monitoring, early ischemia detection technology, sauna detox evidence, sweating out toxins research, BPA phthalate sweat studies, microplastics sauna myth, Bryan Johnson psilocybin experiment, psychedelic longevity research, psychedelic metabolic reset, glucose control psychedelics, HbA1c psilocybin results, continuous glucose monitor insights, mitochondria lifespan research, COX7RP protein aging study, mitochondrial supercomplex benefits, ATP energy output aging, metabolic flexibility longevity, biohacking news update, anti-aging science breakthroughs, evidence-based longevity tools, biological age biomarkers Thank you to our sponsors! -BEYOND Conference 2026 | Register now at https://beyondconference.com/ -BodyGuardz | Visit https://www.bodyguardz.com/ and use code DAVE for 25% off. Resources: • Subscribe to my weekly newsletter: https://substack.daveasprey.com/welcome • Danger Coffee: https://dangercoffee.com/discount/dave15 • My Daily Supplements: SuppGrade Labs (15% Off) • Favorite Blue Light Blocking Glasses: TrueDark (15% Off) • Dave Asprey's BEYOND Conference: https://beyondconference.com • Dave Asprey's New Book – Heavily Meditated: https://daveasprey.com/heavily-meditated • Upgrade Collective: https://www.ourupgradecollective.com • Upgrade Labs: https://upgradelabs.com • 40 Years of Zen: https://40yearsofzen.com Timestamps: 0:00 - Intro 0:18 - Story 1: FDA Supplement Label Changes 1:43 - Story 2: CardiAQ Heart Scanner 2:59 - Story 3: Saunas and Microplastics 4:58 - Story 4: Psychedelics and Blood Sugar 8:22 - Story 5: Mitochondrial Longevity Research 10:29 - Weekly Wrap-Up See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Visit www.joniradio.org for more inspiration and encouragement! --------This Christmas, you can shine the light of Christ into places of darkness and pain with a purchase from the Joni and Friends Christmas catalog. You are sending hope and practical care to people with disabilities, all in the name of Jesus! Thank you for listening! Your support of Joni and Friends helps make this show possible. Joni and Friends envisions a world where every person with a disability finds hope, dignity, and their place in the body of Christ. Become part of the global movement today at www.joniandfriends.org. Find more encouragement on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube.

Page faults occurs when the process tries to access a memory that isn't backed by a physical page kernel raises a fault which loads a page. It happens on first access, stack expansion, COW, swap and much more. However it comes with a cost. In this episode of the backend engineering show I dissect the need and the cost page faults in the kernel. 0:00 Intro 4:00 Virtual memoryAbstraction of physical memoryMemory sharingAllow more processes to run , unused go to diskNuma, kernel can place memory near the cpu12:00 VMA areasText/code Data BSSHeapStack19:50 Kernel mode25:30 What is a Page fault?30:30 First access page fault33:00 Stack Expansion page fault34:30 CoW page fault38:00 Swap page fault39:39 File backed page fault40:29 Permission page fault 45:30 Summary

Starting off with the original Xbox getting a new cosmetic hardmod to introduce power and eject button sounds, as well as a return to form with XBMC4XBOX Redux's release. We also discuss the latest Atmosphere CFW update as it contains some pretty important information for CFW users thanks to the latest system firmware update. The PS4 and PS5 get a lot more love thanks to a new kernel exploit release working on both systems. There's also a few entry points which have gotten awesome developments with Y2JB being paired with Lapse for a full jailbreak, as well as new entry points being seen with the Netflix app and now games using the Ren'py engine!

Igniting Contagious Faith!Sermon Notes: https://links.kchanford.com/sunday

In this episode of The Cybersecurity Defenders Podcast, we discuss some intel being shared in the LimaCharlie community.Google's Threat Intelligence Group has observed a significant shift in 2025, threat actors are no longer using AI to just speed up operations, they are now integrating LLMs directly into the malware.Unit 42 has identified a previously undocumented Android spyware family, named LandFall, discovered during an investigation into iOS exploit chains involving malicious DNG images.Microsoft's November Patch Tuesday rollout includes fixes for over 60 vulnerabilities, one of which is a zero-day privilege escalation flaw in the Windows kernel that has already been exploited in the wild.Former executive at L3Harris Trenchant, Peter Williams, has pleaded guilty in U.S. federal court to selling 8 trade secrets valued at over 1.3 million to a Russian-based software broker involved in the zero-day exploit market.Support our show by sharing your favorite episodes with a friend, subscribe, give us a rating or leave a comment on your podcast platform.This podcast is brought to you by LimaCharlie, maker of the SecOps Cloud Platform, infrastructure for SecOps where everything is built API first. Scale with confidence as your business grows. Start today for free at limacharlie.io.

In this month's Patch [FIX] Tuesday, Ryan Braunstein and Mat Lee dig into kernel flaws, WSL privilege escalation, and the growing risk of Agentic AI in developer environments. They explore how attackers are targeting AI extensions, why developer endpoints are prime targets, and what you can do to patch smarter and train your teams effectively. Stay ahead of new exploits and secure every system before threat actors get the chance.

Hello to you listening in Quezon City, the Philippines!Coming to you from Whidbey Island, Washington this is Stories From Women Who Walk with 60 Seconds for Wednesdays on Whidbey and your host, Diane Wyzga.In 2017 (years before the current madness) Pope Francis said, “Hitler didn't steal the power, his people voted for him, then he destroyed his people.” That's what con men do. Yes, there are days when We the People feel ashamed - even hopeless - for having been duped.At the same time I'm reminded of a line in William Faulkner's 1936 novel Absalom, Absalom!. “Well, Kernel, they kilt us but they ain't whupped us yit!” The quote captures the spirit of the post-Civil War South, suggesting a resilience despite a devastating military loss. For those who paid attention, with that quote Tim Kaine introduced Hillary Clinton ahead of her concession speech. It still applies. Work still remains. Question: If it's true - and I believe it is - we are responsible for the world in which we find ourselves because we alone can change it, how are We the People showing up, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant? How are you finding your voice in these times and what are you saying when you speak up? We the People are casting off our feelings of helplessness, committing to action, reaching for miracle. Where do you find yourself reaching for miracles? Reach! They ain't whupped us yit! You're always welcome: "Come for the stories - Stay for the magic!" Speaking of magic, I hope you'll subscribe, share a 5-star rating and nice review on your social media or podcast channel of choice, bring your friends and rellies, and join us! You will have wonderful company as we continue to walk our lives together. Be sure to stop by my Quarter Moon Story Arts website, check out the Services, arrange a no-obligation Discovery Call, and stay current with me as "Wyzga on Words" on Substack.Stories From Women Who Walk Production TeamPodcaster: Diane F Wyzga & Quarter Moon Story ArtsMusic: Mer's Waltz from Crossing the Waters by Steve Schuch & Night Heron MusicALL content and image © 2019 to Present Quarter Moon Story Arts. All rights reserved.  If you found this podcast episode helpful, please consider sharing and attributing it to Diane Wyzga of Stories From Women Who Walk podcast with a link back to the original source.

The 7th Commandment... This one's one that sounds pretty simple on the surface — “You shall not steal.” Most of us probably think, I don't rob banks, I don't swipe candy bars from the store… I'm good!”But like most of the Commandments, the Seventh one goes way deeper than we think. It's not just about stealing—it's about stewardship, justice, and love.In the beginning, God gave us this beautiful Earth and said, “Take care of it.” He didn't say, “This is yours, keep everyone else out.” He said, “Be stewards.” Meaning, take care of what you have — not just for yourself, but for others too.The Catechism actually says that everything on Earth is entrusted to humanity's care. We can own things, but ownership isn't supposed to be selfish. It's a way to serve others. That's kind of a mindset shift, isn't it? What if instead of asking, “What's mine?” we asked, “How can what I have help someone else?”It reminds me of that moment with Zacchaeus in the Gospel — the tax collector who climbed the tree to see Jesus. When Jesus came to his house, Zacchaeus basically said, “Lord, I'll give half my possessions to the poor, and if I've cheated anyone, I'll pay them back four times over.”That's repentance in action. That's what the Catechism calls reparation—making things right when we've taken something unjustly. And this commandment doesn't just deal with money or stuff. It's also about respecting people and creation.It even forbids slavery and using others for personal gain. That's powerful — because it shows that “stealing” can mean taking someone's dignity or freedom, not just their property.And it even extends to animals! We're called to treat them with kindness. God gave us creation to care for — not to exploit.That means how we consume, how we waste, how we treat the environment — it all ties into the Seventh Commandment.When I waste food or buy stuff I don't really need, I have to ask myself — am I being a good steward of what God gave me?And then Jesus takes it even further in Matthew 25, where He says, “Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”Because it's not just about not stealing — it's about actively giving.The Seventh Commandment calls us to generosity — giving alms, loving the poor, doing works of mercy. Feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, visiting the sick — those are all ways we show that we're not attached to stuff, but attached to God.It's funny how Jesus flips things. He's not saying, “Don't own anything.” He's saying, “Don't let what you own own you.”True freedom comes from trusting that God provides — and that what we have is meant to bless others.So maybe take a second and ask yourself — how attached am I to my stuff?Yeah… how quick am I to share my time, my resources, my money, even my attention?Maybe it's not about stealing in the obvious way, but about those subtle ways we “take” — like taking credit, taking advantage of someone's generosity, or hoarding what we could be sharing.Living out the Seventh Commandment is about living with open hands. Receiving everything as a gift from God, and offering it back to Him through love of others. So next time you think of “You shall not steal,” remember — it's not just about what we don't do. It's about how we give, share, and care.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"music by audionautix.com"Adventures by A Himitsu https://soundcloud.com/a-himitsuMusic released by Argofox https://youtu.be/8BXNwnxaVQEMusic provided by Audio Library https://youtu.be/MkNeIUgNPQ8

Pastor Josh Hall is the Lead Pastor of Ocean Church, located in Estero FL.Ocean Church exists to partner with the work of God in people's lives.To stay connected to Ocean Church:Website: https://bit.ly/2vx8M2oOcean Church Facebook: https://bit.ly/2IXUsTqOcean Church Instagram: https://bit.ly/2vx8x7u

Can't get enough Linux? How about multiple kernels running simultaneously, side by side, not in a VM, all on the same hardware; this week it's finally looking real.Sponsored By:Managed Nebula: Meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. A decentralized VPN built on the open-source Nebula platform that we love. 1Password Extended Access Management: 1Password Extended Access Management is a device trust solution for companies with Okta, and they ensure that if a device isn't trusted and secure, it can't log into your cloud apps. Unraid: A powerful, easy operating system for servers and storage. Maximize your hardware with unmatched flexibility. Support LINUX UnpluggedLinks:

Can't get enough Linux? How about multiple kernels running simultaneously, side by side, not in a VM, all on the same hardware; this week it's finally looking real.

This Week the crew talks about the latest AI in Open Source. Then the new OBS Beta is out, there's a new Init system in town, and Agama 17 is out for SUSE Linux 16. There's kernel drama, with a Btrfs develop stepping back, Bcachefs is maintained outside the kernel, and Rosenzweig is now at Intel. And don't forget the Android bombshell, that sideloading will soon be limited to verified developers. For tips, we have systemctl restart options, wpctl inspect for WirePlumber information, aptitude for more package management, and gdisk for converting an MBR drive to GPT. The show notes are available at https://bit.ly/45T37AJ and enjoy! Host: Jonathan Bennett Co-Hosts: Rob Campbell, Ken McDonald, and Jeff Massie Download or subscribe to Untitled Linux Show at https://twit.tv/shows/untitled-linux-show Want access to the ad-free video and exclusive features? Become a member of Club TWiT today! https://twit.tv/clubtwit Club TWiT members can discuss this episode and leave feedback in the Club TWiT Discord.

Another fuel-mileage race, this time at Iowa Speedway, sees one driver stretch his gas tank for the final 144 laps of the race to return to victory lane. Jeff and Jordan break it all down and discuss the latest in the race to the playoffs as well as this week's NASCAR news and more.