Podcasts about Kernel

Is the real irony that Power Stone has better magical girl transformations than Kernel Hearts? What We're Playing 09:03 Mark: Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (Intelligent Systems, 2005) 02:40 Mark: HARDCORE MECHA (Rocket Punch Games, 2019) 13:27 Caitlin: Wilmot's Warehouse (Hollow Ponds & Richard Hogg, 2019) 19:43 GOOF: Power Stone (DC, Capcom, 1999) 37:05 Feature Game: Kernel Hearts (Ephemera, 2026) SHOUT 1:01:25 Mark: Knuckle Paradise (Flying Oak Games) 1:02:24 Caitlin: Ravenswatch DLC: Kintaro (Passtech Games) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Lunduke Computer Operating System has made the custom, "stainless" (Rust-free) Linux Kernel the default as it moves towards a 1.0 release.LCOS GitHub Page:https://github.com/BryanLunduke/LCOSLifetime Sub Sale, Plus Your Name on the LCOS About Window:https://lunduke.substack.com/p/lifetime-sub-sale-plus-your-nameMore from The Lunduke Journal:https://lunduke.com/ This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit lunduke.substack.com/subscribe

(Presented by TLPBLACK: A cybersecurity intelligence platform focused on sharing curated, high-sensitivity threat insights and research with trusted security professionals.) Three Buddy Problem - Episode 114: We dig into TypeSafe AI's Jev and the new class of System One models, a new Transluce report on rogue OpenAI agents probing an Australian Medicare portal, Irregular's role in the latest Gemini test breakout, Hacktron's takeover of OpenAI employee accounts and the messy disclosure fight that followed, and what Costin would fix first as OpenAI's CISO for a day. Plus, the soaring price of DGX Sparks and home AI rigs, the White House pressing labs to hold models back from the UK AI Security Institute, Anthropic bringing in Accenture as an evaluator, the FomoPeek App Store app hiding iOS kernel exploits, ShinyHunters' claimed FBI breach, and Nightmare Eclipse going public with identity and a CrowdStrike exploit. Cast: Ryan Naraine, Juan Andres Guerrero-Saade and Costin Raiu. Timestamps: 0:00 Introductory banter 1:57 The Last LABScon wrap-up 9:35 TypeSafe AI's Jev and System One models 26:18 Step-down transformers and lab economics 30:58 Rogue OpenAI agents and the Transluce report 41:40 Irregular and Gemini's test breakout 49:28 Hacktron's OpenAI hack and the disclosure fight 54:57 Costin as OpenAI CISO for a day 1:05:44 Hugging Face defends itself with GLM 5.2 1:17:08 What a home AI rig costs now 1:30:02 White House vs. UK AISI pre-release testing 1:36:52 FomoPeek kernel exploits in the App Store 1:51:19 ShinyHunters claims an FBI breach 2:02:40 Nightmare Eclipse unmasked

The 2nd Beta release of the Lunduke Computer Operating System adds new software, a custom Linux kernel, and lots of fixes.LCOS GitHub Page:https://github.com/BryanLunduke/LCOSLCOS on DistroWatch:https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=lcosMore from The Lunduke Journal:https://lunduke.com/ This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit lunduke.substack.com/subscribe

Rust-free kernel. Custom software. Shooting past Arch, NixOS, & openSUSE. Things are looking good for LCOS (Lunduke Computer OS).LCOS on DistroWatch:https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=lcosLCOS GitHub Page:https://github.com/BryanLunduke/LCOSMore from The Lunduke Journal:https://lunduke.com/ This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit lunduke.substack.com/subscribe

Referências do EpisódioPublic Exploits Released for Four Linux Kernel Flaws That Enable Local RootA quartet of Linux local root vulns: DirtyAH6, PPPoEject, TUNderflow, and DiagSpillDon't Call Us, We'll Call Your APIs | TraderTraitor Backdoors Resurface on Victim With No Crypto TiesNorth Korean "WaterPlum," commonly referred to as “Contagious Interview,” Cyber Actor Group Targeting IT Professionals; Activities of North Korean IT Workers in Japan, the United States and EuropeRoteiro e apresentação: Carlos CabralEdição de áudio: Paulo Arruzzo Narração de encerramento: Bianca Garcia

For most modern Kernel releases, over 80% of commits come from people paid to do the work.More from The Lunduke Journal:https://lunduke.com/ This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit lunduke.substack.com/subscribe

In 2025 year RedWillow Brewery raised a glass to 15 years of brewing bold, balanced beers. They marked the milestone with a packed calendar of collaborations, reimagined classics, and monthly giveaways, as well as a recent haul of prestigious awards. And at our Brewers Choice Awards in London next month Toby McKenzie, who started the business with Caroline McKenzie, is shortlisted for our prestigious ‘Brewer of The Year’ accolade. So what better time to revisit our conversation with Toby from last year? Starting out in 2010, RedWillow Brewery has long since established itself as a leading light in UK brewing. Founded by Toby and Caroline McKenzie, the business has grown and evolved without ever undermining its core values. To mark this prestigious anniversary last year, RedWillow launched a year-long series of collaborations with some of the UK's most respected breweries, including DEYA, Lost and Grounded, The Kernel, Thornbridge and more. These limited-edition beers rolled out throughout 2025, showcasing the creativity and community spirit that continues to drive the UK craft beer scene. And for Toby, the occasion gave him and the team the opportunity to reflect on a job well done. A brewery that was inspired by their early peers is now one that is revered and regarded by countless others. In this episode we take a whistle stop look back on the brewery's journey to-date and discuss the creativity, passion, and friendships that make this industry so special.

High value silage depends on maintaining chop quality throughout harvest. Do you know how to reliably monitor your silage quality? Ben Beckman, Nebraska Extension Forage Systems Educator.

Join The Full Nerd gang as they offer level-headed takes about the latest PC building news. In this episode the gang is joined by special guest Mike Danseglio, CEH & CISSP, to discuss topics from DEFCON 2026, including the safety (or lack thereof) of anti-cheat software, how easily Wi-Fi can be hacked and what you can do about it, and much more. And of course we answer questions live! Timecodes: (00:00:00) - Intro (00:07:40) - DEFCON 2026 (00:39:14) - Anti-cheat debate (01:13:02) - Wi-Fi hacking (01:48:15) - Q&A Join the PC related discussions and ask us questions on Discord: https://discord.gg/UWhjwg778a Follow the crew on X and Bluesky: @AdamPMurray @BradChacos @MorphingBall Music by Our Ghosts: https://ourghosts.bandcamp.com/ Some links may contain affiliate links, which means if you buy something PCWorld may receive a small commission. ============= Read PCWorld! Website: http://www.pcworld.com Newsletter: http://www.pcworld.com/newsletters ============= Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week we relive not one but two tours of the Kernel and talk about our worst craft beer bar experiences.WATCH THIS WEEK'S VIDEO: https://youtu.be/daqgGO-MTRsSupport the showBrought to you by the team behind the Craft Beer Channel, The Bubble is a weekly podcast that gives you a way to wind down with your first beer of the weekend. Dig into craft beer, film and music culture as well as hearing what's going on in the wild world of Beer Tubing.BUY JONNY'S NEW BOOK! SIGNED COPIES: https://www.davids-bookshops.co.uk/products/the-meaning-of-beer-by-jonny-garrett-signed-pre-orderAMAZON: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Meaning-Beer-Jonny-Garrett/dp/1838959947/WATERSTONES: https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-meaning-of-beer/jonny-garrett/9781838959944SUPPORT US!Pledge on Patreon and get some cool merch & videos: https://www.patreon.com/craftbeerchannelCheck out our awesome sponsor The Malt Miller: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/Twitter – @beerchannelFacebook – http://www.facebook.com/thecraftbeerchannelInstagram – @craftbeerchannel

But how many actually know what those kernels are worth? In this episode of What's Working in Ag, Shianne from BranValt explains how the SmartPan harvest loss system helps farmers move beyond visual estimates and accurately measure the grain leaving the back of the combine. The discussion covers how the magnetic SmartPan captures real-time grain samples, how the accompanying app converts those samples into bushels, percentages, and dollars, and why calibrating your combine's loss sensors is critical for making informed adjustments during harvest. Using real-world examples, the Farm4Profit crew walks through soybean and corn scenarios showing how relatively small harvest losses can quickly become thousands of dollars across an operation. The conversation also explores balancing grain quality with harvest speed, automation, and why "you can't manage what you don't measure." Topics include: Combine harvest loss SmartPan technology Grain loss monitoring Harvest efficiency Combine calibration Soybean harvest Corn harvest Precision agriculture John Deere automation Yield preservation Harvest ROI Farm profitability Grain loss calculations Precision harvesting If you're looking for one of the fastest ways to improve profitability without buying another acre, this episode demonstrates why measuring harvest loss should be part of every harvest routine. Want Farm4Profit Merch? Custom order your favorite items today!https://farmfocused.com/farm-4profit/ Don't forget to like the podcast on all platforms and leave a review where ever you listen! Website: www.Farm4Profit.comShareable episode link: https://intro-to-farm4profit.simplecast.comEmail address: Farm4profitllc@gmail.comCall/Text: 515.207.9640Subscribe to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSR8c1BrCjNDDI_Acku5XqwFollow us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@farm4profitllc Connect with us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Farm4ProfitLLC/Farm4Profit Media is not a financial, legal, or tax advisor. Content is provided for informational purposes only, and we serve solely as a platform for third-party opinions. Any actions taken based on this content are at your own risk. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We're back, reliving our epic trip around Northern California, a happy day spent filming at Kernel, and of course THE ECLIPSE.WATCH THIS WEEK'S VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=782QnCWL7ngWATCH THE REEL ON WESTMINSTER: https://youtube.com/shorts/m0k61zLpuTw?feature=shareSupport the showBrought to you by the team behind the Craft Beer Channel, The Bubble is a weekly podcast that gives you a way to wind down with your first beer of the weekend. Dig into craft beer, film and music culture as well as hearing what's going on in the wild world of Beer Tubing.BUY JONNY'S NEW BOOK! SIGNED COPIES: https://www.davids-bookshops.co.uk/products/the-meaning-of-beer-by-jonny-garrett-signed-pre-orderAMAZON: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Meaning-Beer-Jonny-Garrett/dp/1838959947/WATERSTONES: https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-meaning-of-beer/jonny-garrett/9781838959944SUPPORT US!Pledge on Patreon and get some cool merch & videos: https://www.patreon.com/craftbeerchannelCheck out our awesome sponsor The Malt Miller: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/Twitter – @beerchannelFacebook – http://www.facebook.com/thecraftbeerchannelInstagram – @craftbeerchannel

Linux Kernel Process Accounting https://isc.sans.edu/diary/Linux%20Kernel%20Process%20Accounting/33240 ShieldBreak - Windows Defender 0day vulnerability https://git.projectnightcrawler.dev/NightmareEclipse/ShieldBreak/src/branch/main Microsoft SharePoint JWT Token Authentication Bypass (CVE-2026-55040) https://www.rapid7.com/blog/post/ra-microsoft-sharepoint-jwt-token-authentication-bypass-cve-2026-55040/ California law puts digital fingerprints on AI fakes https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-icons-labelling-ai-generated-content https://support.claude.com/en/articles/16266773-how-claude-marks-ai-generated-content My Upcoming Classes https://www.sans.org/profiles/dr-johannes-ullrich

Hauke, PixelEdi und Micha begrüßen euch zu ihrer regelmäßigen Infotainment-Sendung rund um Linux und Open Source.Heute geht es mitunter um: Niri, Kernel, Abhängigkeiten US-Unternehmen, Big Tech und Code-Repos

Simon Willison joined Bryan and Adam to discuss a wild couple of weeks in AI. First, we have a high-profile, AI-induced, AI-diagnosed security incident. Next we have the rise of frontier-class open-weights models. Who's for or against open weights? Do they make for a more or less secure future? Exciting times!In addition to Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal, our special guest was Simon Willison.Previously, on Oxide and Friends:OxF: Shell Game with Evan RatliffOxF: Discovering the XZ Backdoor with Andres FreundOxF: Predictions 2025OxF: Predictions 2026!!OxF: Bookclub: How Life Works by Philip BallOxF: OpenAI's Boardroom BrawlSome of the topics we hit on, in the order that we hit them:Gerald the turkey terrorizes Oakland's rose gardenABC7: Gerald the turkey and the Morcom Rose GardenAPD cautions residents after aggressive wild turkey attacks elderly AlamedanHawking radiationDHH's racist complaintsGrok's "MechaHitler" antisemitic spreeSimon on Grok aka "MechaHitler"Hugging Face security incident, July 2026OpenAI on the Hugging Face model evaluation security incidentGreg Brockman's political donations and the Leading the Future super PACOpenAI co-founder and wife donate $5.5M to save the home of bald eagles Jackie and ShadowFirecracker microVMMeltdown (security vulnerability)Kernel page-table isolationJensen Huang on XElectronic design automationGolden Gate ClaudeTethicsHalloween documentsZiziansBiohazard (book)CRISPROliver Sacks: criticism and falsificationsHow Alice Hamilton waged a one-woman campaign to get the lead out of everythingAmerican Poison by Daniel StoneLead–crime hypothesisPope Leo XIV, Magnifica Humanitas encyclicalRerum novarumIf we got something wrong or missed something, please file a PR! Our next show will likely be on Monday at 5p Pacific Time on our Discord server; stay tuned to our Mastodon feeds for details, or subscribe to this calendar. We'd love to have you join us, as we always love to hear from new speakers!

Understand who these men were. They weren't villains twirling their mustaches. They were the serious ones, the ones who had given their lives to God's Word — memorized it, fenced it, defended it. And somewhere in all that guarding, the Law stopped being food and became a club. They could stand in a field full of grain, watch hungry men eat, and see nothing but a violation. Sabbath rules kept to the letter; the mercy the Sabbath was made to deliver, scattered to the wind. Shell without kernel. Religion you can't eat.

video: https://youtu.be/CVkZvrh7qpw Ubuntu is shipping a kernel that can make certain AMD workloads up to 42 times slower. Linus Torvalds is drawing clearer boundaries around AI-generated code in the kernel. Secure Boot just passed a major certificate expiration deadline. COSMIC Desktop 1.3 brings a polished new Frosted Glass design. And one developer decided to add another place and that's a Sega Genesis from 1994. All of this and more on This Week in Linux. Now let's jump right into Your Source for Linux GNews! Download as MP3 Support the Show Become a Patron = tuxdigital.com/membership Store = tuxdigital.com/store Chapters: 00:00 Intro 00:44 Ubuntu publishes Update that introduces regression for AMD users 03:52 Linus Torvalds talks on AI Code in Linux 07:12 Secure Boot Linux Certificates Expired? 09:27 COSMIC 1.3 with Frosted Glass 11:33 AppManager for AppImages 14:51 FreeBSD Removes All GPL Code 17:16 Rapid Fire Lightning Round 17:40 stillOS 10.2 Released 18:32 Blender 5.2 LTS Released 19:00 Clonezilla Live 3.3.3 Released 19:31 Linux on Sega Genesis and 32X Addon 20:26 Outro Links: Ubuntu publishes Update that introduces regression for AMD users https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/amdgpu-performance-regression-in-kernel-7-0-0-28-28/85237 Linus Torvalds talks on AI Code in Linux https://lore.kernel.org/linux-media/CAHk-=wi4zC+Ze8e+p3tMv8TtG_80KzsZ1syL9anBtmEh5Z40vg@mail.gmail.com/ https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Is-Not-Anti-AI https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2026/07/linux-creator-linus-torvalds-puts-foot-down-on-anti-ai-comments/ https://itsfoss.com/news/linus-torvalds-on-ai/ Secure Boot Linux Certificates Expired? https://lwn.net/Articles/1079808/ https://almalinux.org/blog/2026-07-14-secure-boot-2023-certificates/ https://linuxiac.com/debian-13-6-released-with-120-security-fixes-and-124-stability-updates/ COSMIC 1.3 with Frosted Glass https://9to5linux.com/cosmic-1-3-desktop-environment-released-with-frosted-glass-effect https://www.phoronix.com/news/COSMIC-Epoch-1.3 AppManager for AppImages https://github.com/kem-a/AppManager https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2026/07/appmanager-appimage-installer-linux https://github.com/VHSgunzo/uruntime FreeBSD Removes All GPL Code https://www.phoronix.com/news/FreeBSD-16-Goes-GPL-Free https://fossforce.com/2026/07/freebsd-16-cleans-house-no-gpl-left-in-the-base-system/ https://www.phoronix.com/news/FreeBSD-Intern-AMD-ROCm https://www.phoronix.com/news/FreeBSD-Laptops-June-2026 https://www.phoronix.com/news/FreeBSD-Desktop-Install-NVIDIA stillOS 10.2 Released https://stillhq.io/stillos-gets-gnome-49-a-better-first-boot-and-major-swai-improvements/ Blender 5.2 LTS Released https://www.blender.org/download/releases/5-2/ Clonezilla Live 3.3.3 Released https://clonezilla.org/downloads/stable/release-notes.php Linux on Sega Genesis and 32X Addon https://cakehonolulu.github.io/linux-on-32x/ https://github.com/LinuxMD/linuxmd https://www.tomshardware.com/software/linux/developer-successfully-ports-linux-to-1994-sega-32x-genesis-and-megadrive-expansion-runs-open-source-os-on-paltry-23mhz-processors-and-256kb-of-ram Support the show https://tuxdigital.com/membership https://store.tuxdigital.com/

The Fedora Contributor Recognition Program just wrapped its second year, and the winners were announced live at Flock. On this episode of the Fedora Podcast, we sit down with a couple of them: Ankur Sinha and Justin Forbes, to talk about the work that earned them recognition and what keeps them showing up for Fedora year after year. We cover Ankur's long-running stewardship of the Join SIG and his work on NeuroFedora, Fabio's role pioneering Rust packaging guidelines in Fedora and his seat on FESCo, and Justin's work keeping the Fedora kernel reliable, secure, and up to date. Three very different corners of the project, one shared thread of contribution. If you have ever wondered what it takes to leave a lasting mark on Fedora, this episode is full of answers. The Fedora Podcast brings you exclusive interviews and deep dives with the innovators and contributors who make the Fedora community amazing! From cutting-edge technologies to the production of the Fedora distribution itself, we chat with the minds behind it all. Whether you're a longtime user or just curious, there's always something new to discover in the world of Fedora.

Sami Kayyali is the founder and managing director of Rekarda, one of the most specialist communications businesses in the UAE. But the work he does is not what most people think. He is not building slides. He is sitting behind the scenes of the rooms where the most consequential decisions in the region get made, shaping how CEOs, government entities and multinational boards communicate before they walk into the moments that define their careers. With over 20 years of experience, Sami has watched brilliant leaders with brilliant ideas lose the room, not because the idea was wrong, but because nobody had ever told them the truth about how they were coming across. This conversation covers building a specialist consultancy from the ground up in Dubai, the hidden work behind high-stakes presentations, what AI is doing to leadership communication, and the one pattern he sees in every single boardroom that almost nobody is willing to talk about.   Timestamps: 0:00 Who Sami Kayyali is and the work that happens before leaders walk into high-stakes rooms 3:30 What brought him to Dubai and the gap in the market he spotted that nobody else was filling 10:00 How a presentation design business became a full strategic communications company 16:00 The moment he realised the problem was never the slides, it was always the thinking behind them 22:00 The biggest communication mistakes CEOs make and why nobody ever tells them 30:00 What actually happens behind the scenes before a major board meeting or investor presentation 38:00 Can you tell within minutes whether a leader is a strong communicator and what gives it away 45:00 How AI is changing executive communication and why most leaders are getting worse, not better 53:00 The Kernel, cybersecurity and why it is a leadership problem, not an IT problem 60:00 Failure, what success means to him now versus ten years ago and the advice that changed everything 66:00 Quickfire: favourite books, the worst phrase in any business deck, the most underrated communication skill, PowerPoint loved or hated, AI as a creative shortcut or a creative risk, and one thing every CEO should fix tomorrow   Follow Spencer Lodge on Social Media: https://www.instagram.com/madeindubaipodcast/?hl=en https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61586194260076 https://www.instagram.com/spencer.lodge/?hl=en https://www.tiktok.com/@spencer.lodge https://www.linkedin.com/in/spencerlodge/ https://www.youtube.com/c/SpencerLodgeTV https://www.facebook.com/spencerlodgeofficial/   Follow Sam Kayyali on Social Media: linkedin.com/in/samikayyali https://www.linkedin.com/company/wearerekarda/ https://www.instagram.com/wearerekarda https://www.facebook.com/hello.rekarda 

This week Jonny and Brad are nursing hangovers after a special day filming at The Kernel, but they still manage to pay homage to the late Humphrey Smith, and to talk about the last two videos!WATCH THIS WEEK'S VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lWC4_VuhQ8Support the showBrought to you by the team behind the Craft Beer Channel, The Bubble is a weekly podcast that gives you a way to wind down with your first beer of the weekend. Dig into craft beer, film and music culture as well as hearing what's going on in the wild world of Beer Tubing.BUY JONNY'S NEW BOOK! SIGNED COPIES: https://www.davids-bookshops.co.uk/products/the-meaning-of-beer-by-jonny-garrett-signed-pre-orderAMAZON: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Meaning-Beer-Jonny-Garrett/dp/1838959947/WATERSTONES: https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-meaning-of-beer/jonny-garrett/9781838959944SUPPORT US!Pledge on Patreon and get some cool merch & videos: https://www.patreon.com/craftbeerchannelCheck out our awesome sponsor The Malt Miller: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/Twitter – @beerchannelFacebook – http://www.facebook.com/thecraftbeerchannelInstagram – @craftbeerchannel

Today, we are dropping another episode in our series The AI Control Loop, How enterprises govern the AI they've already deployed - sponsored by our friends at Wallarm.Wallarm is the AI Control Platform for Enterprise AI, protecting every AI workload, API, and application in production, giving CISOs the governance they need and CIOs the speed they demand. Organizations choose Wallarm for a complete inventory of APIs, AI agents, and AI apps, patented AI/ML-based threat detection and blocking that operates at production traffic speeds.In his follow up appearance on the Code Story podcast, Tim Ebbers, Field CTO at Wallarm, discusses why detection alone is insufficient for AI-driven systems, what real enforcement looks like at the runtime level, and what accountability becomes possible once all four stages are in place.QuestionsSecurity teams are used to detecting incidents and responding after the fact. Why is that model insufficient for AI-driven systems?What does “enforcement” usually mean today, and why can actions like restarting pods or rotating credentials come too late?Why does AI behavior require controls that operate closer to runtime?What changes when enforcement happens at the kernel level rather than only at the network, identity, or application layer?Can you explain what it means to revoke or contain a compromised AI session without touching the broader deployment?How does real-time blocking change the risk equation for AI agents that access sensitive data, external services, or production workflows?What kinds of AI behaviors should organizations be able to stop immediately?How do teams balance strong enforcement with the need to avoid slowing down AI development and deployment? Once organizations can discover, observe, and enforce AI behavior, what does accountability look like at the enterprise level?Linkshttps://www.wallarm.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/tebbers/Full AbstractTim Ebbers, Field CTO at Wallarm, discusses why detection alone is insufficient for AI-driven systems, what real enforcement looks like at the runtime level, and what accountability becomes possible once all four stages are in place.Detection tells you what happened. It does not stop it. For most security incidents, that tradeoff is manageable. For AI systems that can access sensitive data, call external services, and trigger downstream actions at machine speed, the gap between detection and response is where the damage happens.The enforcement model most security teams operate today was built for a slower threat. Restarting pods, rotating credentials, and updating policies are all responses to something that has already occurred. Against an AI agent that can exfiltrate data, invoke a production workflow, or violate a compliance boundary in the time it takes to page an on-call engineer, that response model is not enforcement. It's cleanup.Closing that gap requires controls that operate at the layer where AI behavior actually executes, not at the perimeter, not at the identity layer, not at the application boundary. Kernel-level enforcement changes what is possible: a compromised session can be revoked by user identity or trace ID, connections can be terminated at the workload level, and enforcement can happen without a pod restart, a deploy cycle, or any impact to the broader environment. That is what it means to complete the AI control loop. Discover what is running, observe what it is doing, enforce what it should not be doing, and govern with evidence that the enforcement worked. Organizations that can only do the first two are solving half the problem.Our Sponsors:* Check out Cash App and use my code CASHAPP10 for a great deal: https://cash.app* Check out Plaud AI and use my code CODESTORY for a great deal: https://plaud.aiAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Your favorite open source projects have been busy. We round up the new releases worth knowing about, plus the big kernel changes headed your way soon.

Your favorite open source projects have been busy. We round up the new releases worth knowing about, plus the big kernel changes headed your way soon.Sponsored By:Webroot: Webroot is cloud-based antivirus, engineered to stay out of your way. For a limited time, you can save sixty percent.Jupiter Party Annual Membership: Put your support on automatic with our annual plan, and get one month of membership for free!Managed Nebula: Meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. A decentralized VPN built on the open-source Nebula platform that we love.Support LINUX UnpluggedLinks:AppleTalk 1985-2026 Memorial StickerSorry, I only open regular files StickerWebroot — Save sixty percent when you go to webroot.com/unplugged.

Ladybird slams the door on AI pull requests, Kernel 7.1 brings a healthy performance boots for the Intel B580, emulating analog TV and VHS artifacts on Linux, and an official Proton drive for penguins.The video version of the show is available to Patrons, along with the Extended Chaos podcast featuring over an extra hour of LWDW content every week.⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠Show Notes⁠Timestamps00:00 Intro06:12 Replacing X11 and Wayland13:38 Linux 7.1 is out20:07 Goldeneye 007 XBOX 360 remaster on Linux27:12 Distrowatch tuns 25TopicsWhy Serverhttps://github.com/joske/yserverLinux 7.1https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2026/06/linux-7-1-kernel-featuresGoldenEye 007 XBLA Recomphttps://interfacinglinux.com/community/linuxgaming/goldeneye-007-xbla-recomp-on-linux-native/Distrowatch turns 25!https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20260601#sitenews

La historia de Daniela Castaño, cofundadora de Maíz Kernel, quién tenía una beca fullbright para ir a Stanford por un MBA, y decidió no ir para fundar su empresa.

Apply for permanent residency in the snack zone, because we're back for De Mol België Season 14 - and its visit to Portugal! Over these nine weeks, two guys who never say no to peer pressure - Michael & Bindles - are back for the sixtieth season of the podcast and trying not to get left behind in the search for the Mole, continuing with the seventh episode and elimination of Isabel! In this episode - there's a pre-emptive non-apology, life brings Michael back down with a (very large) crash, we try and avoid the phrase "pandering to us", Café de Mol might be listening, Magellan gets offended, we discuss our encounters with birds of prey, Mole football matches get compared, we wonder what the leniency on the drum solo was, the concept of "Logan Saunders Time" is introduced, Van has been burying things, we wonder whether crowdsurfing is actually a viral challenge, there's a Belgian weather report, Bindles tries to start some trouble, there are the penultimate updates to First Suspicions and the Pool, the final set of suspects get locked in and we wonder whether Maxim was trying to attract suspicion. You can play along with the final week of this season's Bother's Bar Suspect List here. We will see you on Tuesday for Diary of a Mole (Finale) V and Thursday to recap the finale! Please note: This episode is intended on being spoiler-free, but references to any season we have already covered (WIDM 10-12, 14, 16-25 and Renaissance; België 4-13) may be made. This episode is supported by our friends over at Zencastr. Create your podcast today! Social Media: Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube Bluesky Threads Patreon  

 PopNinja Podcast co-host Patrick Bennett brings you a brand-new mini podcast spinoff, “Popcorn Kernels,” where he talks movies, comics, toys, TV, and all the nostalgic memories of growing up in the '70s and '80s. This is Patrick's personal journey through his proud and nerdy evolution from childhood to adolescence. In this first episode, he talks about his love of the 1982 film Swamp Thing and specific memories from seeing it in the theater. 

Tux turns 30! Kernel devs continue their war against old hardware, and somebody made a 3D terminal with a spinning rat cursor because reasons. Also, Twilight Princess running natively on Linux might feel deeply incorrect, but don't let that stop you.Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/lwdw⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/uQVckr5gEZ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Timestamps:00:00 Intro04:23 New Qualcomm SBC from Radxa 08:11 Linux Tux mascot turns 30 13:10 3D in the terminal with rats 19:41 AMD K6 removed from the Linux kernel 26:53 Zelda Twilight Princess decompiled for Linux TopicsTux the Penguin turns 30!https://www.xda-developers.com/linuxs-tux-the-penguin-mascot-turns-30-today/Ratty Term https://blog.orhun.dev/introducing-ratty/K5 gonehttps://shorturl.at/T7J7yDusky Zeldahttps://github.com/TwilitRealm/dusk

Episode 1: Obedience Experiments & the Current Hantavirus Scare Lead-In / Hook • Open with the fresh Hantavirus cruise ship story (May 2026 outbreak on MV Hondius: cluster of cases, deaths, WHO alerts, media panic, comparisons to past pandemics). • Ask: “Another virus scare hitting the headlines — rodent-borne hantavirus on a cruise ship, rapid media coverage, public anxiety spiking. Sound familiar?” • Thesis: “This is the perfect real-time example of how authority, conformity, and ‘trust the experts' tactics — proven in classic psychology experiments — are still being used today in public health narratives.” Section 1: The Classic Experiments (Quick Recap) • Milgram Obedience: 65% of ordinary people administered what they believed were lethal shocks because an authority figure told them to. • Stanford Prison Experiment: Normal students became abusive guards or passive prisoners in days due to assigned roles and power structures. • Asch Conformity: People denied obvious reality (line length) to match the group. • Core lesson: Authority + perceived expertise + group pressure easily override personal judgment and common sense. Section 2: How These Tactics Show Up Right Now (Hantavirus as Exhibit A) • Rapid “trust the experts/WHO” framing and fear-based coverage despite experts noting low general-public risk and rare human-to-human transmission (mainly Andes strain in this case). • Labeling of questions or skepticism as dangerous or conspiratorial (Asch conformity in action). • Positioning public health agencies and media as the sole authority figures (modern Milgram). • Role assignment: Compliant citizens vs. reckless skeptics (Stanford Prison dynamic). • Tie to broader pattern: Same playbook seen in vaccine campaigns, statin guidelines, and repeated “emergency” messaging. Section 3: The Real-World Cost (Your Trenches Perspective) • After nearly 40 years coaching and still training at 63: Clients who followed official narratives saw declining performance, metabolic issues, lost resilience. • Psychology working as designed: Creates compliance and dependency while independent thinking erodes. • Profit angle: Institutions and industries benefit from sustained fear and reliance. Section 4: Breaking Free — The Thinking Man's Approach • Recognize the tactics: Treat health messaging like any high-pressure sales pitch — question it. • Use your own data: Track personal metrics (energy, strength, how you feel) over blanket guidelines. • Build real resilience: Smart intensity training (Tabata intervals — 4 minutes of hard effort) that delivers measurable results without waiting for official approval. • Reclaim agency: Decisions based on your body and long-term outcomes, not external pressure. Closing / CTA • Once you see the pattern, you can't unsee it. • Grab the free Policy-Proof Your Health Checklist. • Question of the week: “Have you seen fear-based health messaging influencing your decisions lately?” • Empowering close: Listen to your body, think critically, and stay in control. Episode 2: Refuting Gatorade's “Hydrates Better Than Water” Claims Intro / Hook • Relatable question: “Have you ever reached for a Gatorade (even the new lower-sugar version) thinking it hydrates you better than plain water?” • Thesis: “The electrolyte science has a kernel of truth in specific situations, but the broad marketing claim is wildly overstated for most people. There's a simpler, cheaper, cleaner option that works just as well — or better.” Section 1: What Gatorade Actually Claims • Sodium helps retain fluid, maintain blood volume, reduce urine output. • Carbs + sodium boost absorption (via SGLT1 transporters) in full-sugar versions. • They apply the “proven electrolyte blend” messaging broadly, including to everyday use and the lower-sugar version. • Recent pivot: Pushing hydration for regular people, not just athletes. Section 2: Kernel of Truth (Stay Balanced) • In prolonged intense exercise (>60–90 min), heavy sweating, heat: Electrolytes (especially sodium) do help replace losses and improve retention. • “Salty sweaters” and endurance athletes see real benefit. • Give credit where it's due — no denying the narrow use case. Section 3: Context Is Everything — The Refutation • ACSM guidance: For exercise under ~1 hour or moderate intensity, little to no difference vs. plain water. • Normal diet already supplies most daily electrolytes. • Much of the perceived superiority is palatability (people drink more flavored liquid). When volume is equal, the gap shrinks dramatically. • Lower-sugar version loses most of the carb-absorption advantage. Section 4: The Better Alternative — DIY Salt Water • Simple recipe: 16–20 oz water + 1/8–1/4 tsp high-quality sea salt (~300–500 mg sodium) + squeeze of lemon/lime. • Optional: Tiny bit of honey for longer sessions. • Why it wins: Full control over sodium, zero added sugar/additives, much cheaper, cleaner. • Evidence: Sodium-enhanced fluids improve retention in relevant scenarios (Beverage Hydration Index research). • Advantages: Avoid excess sugar, customize to your needs, no marketing hype. Section 5: Critique of the Research • Often-cited studies (e.g., small 2008 kayaker trial) have limitations: tiny samples, specific conditions, industry ties (GSSI). • Independent sources (Harvard Health, ACSM): Water + balanced diet is enough for the vast majority of people. Conclusion & Takeaways • Bottom line: Pinch of salt in water beats Gatorade for everyday or moderate activity. Save commercial drinks for true long, brutal endurance efforts in extreme conditions. • Action step: Try the DIY version this week and compare how you feel. • Listener question: “What's your go-to hydration strategy?” • Empowering note: Hydration doesn't need to be expensive or complicated — listen to your body and use common sense. These talking points keep both episodes concise, conversational, and true to your style. The obedience episode leads strongly with the timely Hantavirus example, then flows naturally into practical health ownership (including hydration as a real-world application).

This week Singpolyma joins us to talk about the Cheogram web app. We talk about NASA's Orion Artemis II Optical Communications System (O2O) and how it's changing the way long distance communication works! -- During The Show -- 00:48 - Special Guest Singpolyam cross platform core Cheogram Web App Still considered Alpha Pretty stable Voice, Video, Text JMP.chat data only sim esim adapter Snikket Affect of Google forcing developer registration JMP.Chat 10:38 Comprehension debt Creating prompts Spec driven developing Most people don't read the code No person understands how the code works Peer review vs AI Amazon outages When to use AI code Re-implementing AI code AI summary Rating your understanding RAID log 24:30 Linux Router - Connor VyOS OpenWRT PFSense is out Look for things with an API PFSenseible GitHub Site to Site in medical Dicom Why not to use pfSense OPNsense 35:30 JMP.chat - Aaron Cheogram Web App Webapp Manager GitHub 36:15 System Fails to boot -Advait Can't remember the last time it happened Noah doesn't fix systems Reinstall plus ansible 41:12 News Wire Nginx 1.30 - nginx.org OpenSSL 4.0 - github.com Gnome 50.1 - gnome.org KDE Gear 26.04 - kde.org Mir 2.26 - ubuntu.com Linux 7.1 - theregister.com Zorin OS 18.1 - blog.zorin.com Solus 4.9 - getsol.us Cachy OS has 7.0 Kernel - xda-developers.com Thunderbolt AI Client - phoronix.com Cal Closeing Source Code - zdnet.com 42:25 Sleuth's Feedback VyOS Uses a JSON config file Have the system make backups Supports podman containers System failing to boot Your data is still there Boot from a live distro 45:30 Artemis II Mission Crew Module ESM - European Service Module Radio waves O2O communications 1 watt of power focused beam, sensitive receiver 260 MbPs TechSpot -- The Extra Credit Section -- For links to the articles and material referenced in this week's episode check out this week's page from our podcast dashboard! This Episode's Podcast Dashboard Phone Systems for Ask Noah provided by Voxtelesys Join us in our dedicated chatrSpecial Guest: Stephen Paul Weber.

Rock Band 4 fixes land in Kernel 7.0! Installing (and playing DOOM) on a router, France installs Linux, and Oberon System 3 on Raspberry Pi.Patreon: ⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/lwdw⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/uQVckr5gEZ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TOPICSDOOMing a routerhttps://interfacinglinux.com/2026/04/09/doom-on-the-banana-pi-r4-pro/France to Linuxhttps://www.zdnet.com/article/france-leaves-windows-for-linux-desktop/Linux Kernel 7https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2026/04/linux-7-0-kernel-featuresOberon System 3 on Raspberry Pi 3https://github.com/rochus-keller/OberonSystem3Native/releases/tag/2026-04-1000:00 Intro03:48 RPG adventures with cars08:56 Playing DOOM on a router 18:46 France install Linux 26:28 Kernel 7.0 ROCKS37:41 Oberon System 3 on Raspberry Pi 3

The power of embracing your country's national identity, philosophy or religion as the foundation for your company's customer-centric culture transformation.Connect with Sam on LinkedIn - I share customer experience content multiple times a week, and love hearing from listeners with questions or ideas for topics.Subscribe to my newsletter, Customer Experience Patterns - I publish a new edition with each episode of the podcast.My LinkedIn Learning courses: Customer Experience: 6 Essential Foundations For Lasting Loyalty, How To Create Great Customer Experiences & Build A Customer-Centric Culture. In-depth video series that teach you how to create great experiences, and build customer-centric cultuers.Thanks to my talented colleague Emily Tolmer for the cover art. Thanks to my friends at Moon Island for the music. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2026, Lena Hall and Thorsten Hans of Akamai outlined how the company is evolving from a CDN provider into a developer-focused cloud platform for AI. Akamai's strategy centers on low-latency, distributed computing, combining managed Kubernetes, serverless functions, and a distributed AI inference platform to support modern workloads. With a global footprint of core and “distributed reach” datacenters, Akamai aims to bring compute closer to users while still leveraging centralized infrastructure for heavier processing. This hybrid model enables faster feedback loops critical for applications like fraud detection, robotics, and conversational AI. To address concerns about complexity, Akamai emphasizes managed infrastructure and self-service tools that abstract away integration challenges. Its platform supports open source through managed Kubernetes and pre-packaged tools, simplifying deployment. Akamai also invests in serverless technologies like WebAssembly-based functions, enabling developers to build and deploy globally distributed applications quickly. Overall, the company prioritizes developer experience, allowing teams to focus on application logic rather than infrastructure management. Learn more from The New Stack about the latest developments around how Akamai is transforming to a developer-focused cloud platform for AI. Akamai Picks Up Hosting for Kernel.org Should You Care About Fermyon Wasm Functions on Akamai? Join our community of newsletter subscribers to stay on top of the news and at the top of your game.   

Ever lost an argument you know you should have won — but couldn't explain why? That's not a coincidence. It's a strategy called "The Pop." Tony Overbay, LMFT, introduces a powerful new framework for understanding one of the most disorienting dynamics in emotionally immature and narcissistic relationships: paltering — using technically true statements to build a completely false picture of reality. Through vivid storytelling, real listener examples, and the unforgettable journey of a popcorn kernel named Kevin, Tony names the mechanism that has left so many people feeling crazy when they were actually catching something real. In this episode, you'll discover: What "The Pop" is and why a single kernel of truth can expand into a narrative that fills the entire room — mostly air How paltering differs from outright lying, and why your brain's alarm system doesn't fire the way it normally would Real stories from The Kernel Collection — listener-submitted examples of half-truths weaponized in relationships Why you became a "court reporter" in your own relationship, and why that's an adaptation — not a flaw How implicit memory — your body's record of every conversation that left you smaller — is the one thing The Pop can't touch With over 1,500 couples counseled and hundreds of clients navigating narcissistic relationship dynamics, Tony delivers both the clinical framework and the emotional validation this topic demands. If you've ever told yourself, "I can't point to a specific lie — so maybe I'm the problem," this episode will change how you see every confusing conversation you've ever had. 00:00 Popcorn Obsession 01:36 Kernel Origin Story 02:46 Kevin Pops 05:48 Truth Becomes Weapon 09:33 Show Intro Concept 12:38 Paltering Half Truths 16:49 NXIVM Big Example 20:31 Long Term Erosion 21:38 Lauren Pattern Example 24:04 Listener Stories 25:56 Dinner Drinks Story 29:55 Flat Tire Example 30:22 Flat Tire Blame Shift 32:12 Confabulated Hero Narrative 33:38 Money Versus Love Trap 34:41 Doctor Appointment Reversal 36:26 Sorry But Apology 38:21 Why The Pop Works 40:24 Court Reporter Survival 43:16 Mindfulness And Runway 45:37 Boundaries Not Ultimatums 52:10 Trust Implicit Memory 53:50 Orienting Steps Forward 55:20 Differentiation And Crucible 01:01:44 Closing Takeaways Learn more at tonyoverbay.com and explore the Magnetic Marriage course for relationships where both people want to do the work. Please follow Tony on Instagram @virtual.couch on Tiktok @virtualcouch on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyoverbaylmft and on Substack https://thevirtualcouch.substack.com/ You can reach out to Tony through his website tonyoverbay.com or by emailing contact @ tonyoverbay.com

Sam Valencia, Jerry Zigmont and Joe Saponare discuss working with Apple technology and clients. Drawn from their combined experience of over 20 years in the Apple Consultants Network, thaey discuss technical support issues both with the technology and working with clients.

Claude Cowork came out of an accident.Felix and the Anthropic team noticed something interesting with Claude Code: many users were using it primarily for all kinds of messy knowledge work instead of coding. Even technical builders would use it for lots of non-technical work.Even more shocking, Claude cowork wrote itself. With a team of humans simply orchestrating multiple claude code instances, the tool was ready after a brief week and a half.This isn't Felix's first rodeo with impactful and playful desktop apps. He's helped ship the Slack desktop app and is a core maintainer of Electron the open-source software framework used for building cross-platform desktop applications, even putting Windows 95 into an Electron app that runs on macOS, Windows, and Linux.In this episode, Felix joins us to unpack why execution has suddenly become cheap enough that teams can “just build all the candidates” and why the real frontier in AI products is no longer better chat, but trusted task execution.He also shares why Anthropic is betting on local-first agent workflows, why skills may matter more than most people realize, and how the hardest questions ahead are about autonomy, safety, portability, and the changing shape of knowledge work itself.We discuss* Felix's path: Slack desktop app, Electron, Windows 95 in JavaScript, and now building Claude Cowork at Anthropic* What Claude Cowork actually is: a more user-friendly, VM-based version of Claude Code designed to bring agentic workflows to non-terminal-native users* Why “user-friendly” does not mean “less powerful”: Cowork as a superset product, much like how VS Code initially looked simpler than Visual Studio but became more hackable and extensible* Anthropic's prototype-first culture: why Cowork was built in 10 days using many pre-existing internal pieces, and how internal prototypes shaped the final product* Why execution is getting cheap: the shift from long memos, specs, and debate toward rapidly building multiple candidates and choosing based on reality instead of theory* The local debate: why Felix thinks Silicon Valley is undervaluing the local computer, and why putting Claude “where you work” is often more powerful* Why Claude gets its own computer: the VM as both a safety boundary and a capability unlock, letting Claude install tools, run scripts, and work more independently without constant approval* Safety through sandboxing: why “approve every command” is not a real long-term UX, and how virtual machines create a middle ground between uselessly safe and dangerously autonomous* How Cowork differs from Claude Code: coding evals vs. knowledge-work evals, different system-prompt tradeoffs, longer planning horizons, and heavier use of planning and clarification tools* Why skills matter: simple markdown-based instructions as a lightweight abstraction layer for reusable workflows, personalized automation, and portable agent behavior* Skills vs. MCPs: why Felix is increasingly interested in file-based, text-native interfaces that tell the model what to do, rather than forcing everything through rigid tool schemas* The portability problem: why personal skills should move across agent products, and the unresolved tension between public reusable workflows and private user-specific context* Real use cases already happening today: uploading videos, organizing files, handling taxes, managing calendars, debugging internal crashes, analyzing finances, and automating repetitive browser workflows* Why AI products should work with your existing stack: Anthropic's bias toward integrating with Chrome, Office, and existing workflows instead of rebuilding every app from scratch* Computer use one year later: how much better it has gotten, why vision plus browser context is such a superpower, and why letting Claude see the thing it is working on changes everything* Why many “AI verticals” may get compressed: specialized wrappers may matter in the short term, but better general models and stronger primitives could absorb a lot of narrow use cases* The future of junior work: Felix's concerns about entry-level roles, labor-market disruption, and whether AI can compress early-career learning into denser simulated experience* Why Waterloo grads stand out: internships, shipping experience, and learning how real teams build products versus purely theoretical academic preparation* The agentic future of the desktop: what it means for Claude to have its own computer, whether AI should act on your machine or a remote one, and how intimacy with personal data changes the product design space* Why Electron still mattered: shipping Chromium as a controlled rendering stack, the limits of OS-native webviews, and why browser engines remain one of the great software abstractions* Anthropic's Labs mentality: wild internal experiments, half-broken future-looking prototypes, and the broader effort to move users from asking questions to delegating increasingly long and valuable tasks* Why the endgame is not just more capability, but more independence: teaching users to trust AI with bigger scopes of work, for longer durations, with fewer interventionsFelix Rieseberg* X: https://x.com/felixrieseberg* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/felixrieseberg* Website: https://felixrieseberg.com/Anthropic* Website: http://anthropic.comFull Video PodTimestamps00:00 — Cheap execution and building all the candidates00:44 — Intro in the new Kernel studio02:47 — What Claude Cowork is04:18 — Why user-friendly can be more powerful05:33 — How Anthropic built Cowork07:09 — Prototype-first product development08:00 — Why local computers still matter09:20 — Skills, primitives, and platform leverage12:13 — Cowork's architecture: VM + Chrome + system prompt15:38 — Felix's own bug-fixing Cowork workflows17:38 — Local-first agents20:16 — Evals, planning, and knowledge-work optimization23:14 — What Anthropic means by evals24:21 — Scaffolding, tools, and why skills matter27:44 — Demo: YouTube uploads and self-generated skills31:03 — Calendar automation and cleaning your desktop34:47 — Browser context and why DOM access matters37:47 — Skills portability and plugins44:36 — Which AI categories survive?46:19 — Junior jobs, simulated work, and labor disruption52:00 — Gradual takeoff vs big-bang takeoff53:42 — Finance, taxes, and enterprise verticals56:24 — Vision and the improvement in computer use57:31 — Why Claude writes its own scripts58:06 — Should Claude have its own computer?1:01:26 — Windows 95 in JavaScript1:03:19 — VM tradeoffs and sandbox design1:07:23 — Approval fatigue and safe delegation1:11:18 — The future of Cowork1:12:27 — What comes next for agentic knowledge work1:15:13 — Electron, Chromium, and desktop software lessons1:22:16 — Multiplayer agents and coworker-to-coworker workflows1:26:05 — Anthropic Labs and closing thoughtsTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast, our first one in the new studio. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by swyx, editor of Latent Space.swyx: Yeah, so nice to be here. Thanks to, uh, TJ, Alessio, Allen helping to set everything up. It looks beautiful. We even have the logo outside.Yeah, kind.Felix: It's like really nice, right? When you walk in here as a guest, you're like, ah, this is a serious production. You're like, feel it immediately.swyx: Yeah. Felix, you've been, you're, you're currently a product manager of Cowork or,Felix: uh, really Technicswyx: Eng. Yeah. The, the identities are kind of vague member technical staff.Felix: I know member staff is like, the official title will carry around forever.swyx: Yeah. I basically kind of wanted, like we've been. Kinda obsessed. I, I've been using it a lot, even for managing latent space. Like, uh, cowork helps me upload videos and like title things and like edit and everything. It's, it's like really amazing.Alessio: Cool. He said multiple times Cowork has said gi in the group track.swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so we have a second, uh, we have a second channel, uh, for latent space tv. Uh, and I, uh, and uh, we basically, this is our Discord meetup. Um, and I I, we have like Claude Coworks, it might be a GI, I don't know if we, we have, uh, uploaded it yet, but one of the sessions was like a, like a Claude cowork thing.Felix: I, you have to see, I would love to see it. Like, I'm so curious, like one of the most fun parts of my job is like constantly see the weird things people use Cowork for because it's obviously like very hard for us to actually design for specific use cases we do. But like every single person who's like most amazed is usually amazed about a thing that I didn't even expect cowork would be good at.Um, we have a new designer and it's one of the first small tasks. I was like, Hey, we need like a new emoji for cowork for our internal stock. It's like a pretty small thing. I like, can you please do it? And he drew an SVG and just gave it to coworker was like, can you animate this emoji? And now it has like this beautiful loopy animation.Um, and I mean, I think obviously this goes down to like, it turns out you can do more things with code than you expected, but it, it's like that kind of stuff that is really fun to me. So, long story short, I would love to see like, the kind of things you're doing.swyx: I'll pull it up. I'll pull it up.Felix: Yeah. Yeah.swyx: Uh, but before we get into it, I, I think always wanna start with like a top level. What is Claude Cowork for people who haven't heard of it? Haven't tried it out.Felix: Okay. Uh, real quick, Claude Cowork is a user friendly version of Claude Code. So the way it basically works is we have Claude Code and for us, fairly impressive agent harness that over December we noticed more and more people are using either, even though they're not technical, they, they're not at home in the terminal or they are at home in the terminal, but they started using Claude Code for non-coding workloads, right?Like managing expenses or like filling out receipts or organizing a knowledge base. Like there was a big obsidian moment that a lot of people liked and we wanted to capitalize on that, but also bring, bring this capability to people who are not terminal native and who might not know how to like brew and store something.So cowork is Claude Code running in original machine with a little bit of padding, a little bit more guardrails, making it a little safer and a little bit more convenient for people who don't wanna first open up the terminal when they go to work.swyx: It's interesting, uh, that is kind of. Pitch that way as a more user friendly thing because I always feel like it, it, to me, I I treat it as like why I'm familiar with Claude Code.Like we, we did a Claude Code episode Yeah. A year ago. But this one is like even more power user tools ‘cause it, uh, it kind of integrates much better with like clotting Chrome and, uh, in all the, all the other tooling. But like, maybe, maybe that's like a perception thing, right? LikeFelix: No, honestly, I don't think you're wrong.This is like a, a thing I've been thinking a lot about for like the last two weeks. So,swyx: but when they say user friendly, it's like, oh, it's the dumb down version. But no, actually this is the superset.Felix: Yeah. Like, I think a similar thing happened, A similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago, like maybe 12 years ago when I was at Microsoft and we started working on, on Electron and like browser-based technologies and cross-platform stuff.And one of the first use cases was Visual Studio Code, which used to be a website. And the initial narrative was, or Visual Studio Code is, is like a more user-friendly version of Visual Studio. But in a similar vein, I think there was some voices saying, oh, this is. For serious developers, like, we're not gonna use this.Right? For like anything. And I think in the end what happened is people have different stories about why Visual Studio Code became such a big thing. But my personal, my personal belief is that the Hackability and the extendability has like played a pretty big role, right? You can hook in Visual Studio Code that like almost any workload, it's so easy to hack on, so easy to put extensions for it.And I think cowork might be hitting a similar thing where it's very easy to extend and it's very easy to bring into your workflows. Uh, so the convenience I think is a bit of a, it's obviously the thing we strive for as developers, but I think the way people find value in it then is by probably mapping it onto whatever they actually have to do in their job.Alessio: So end of last year, you see the spike of like non-technical usage and clock code. What's the design process to say we should make clock code work? Because I mean, you built it in only 10 days. Um, I'm sure there was some discussion before on whether it's easier to use mean. You know, like making, making like a desktop GUI is obviously one way to do it, but like there's a lot of nuance in the product.Like maybe talk people through what was like the trigger of like, we should build a separate thing. We should not build like a different plot code thing. And then maybe some of the more interesting design decisions that maybe you didn't take.Felix: Yeah, I think philanthropic, we've been thinking about ways to move people who are comfortable with using Claude to answer questions and bring more of the power of like this thing to now like, execute tasks for you.I can like solve problems for you can like build things for you. How do we bring that capability to people who are currently mostly comfortable with like a like question answer paradigm within the chat. And we've had a lot of prototypes around that. Just going back as far as like easily a year and a half.Like we had a lot of people working on that. Um, and internally philanthropic is a very prototype demo, first culture. We have a lot of like internal prototypes that don't reach the public. What Cowork actually became is like we sort of picked the right pieces out of the many prototypes that we had.Right. And that's, that's maybe also like, I think an important qualifier whenever people mention this like 10 day number. I do think it's important to me to mention that within Double Scratch there was like a lot of stuff already happening, right? Like, and I think it's important for people to remember that when you build a website, you use React, you use like a bunch of other things.And this is like a similar scenario with like a lot of pieces we already had. Um, and in terms of decision path, I think we live in like an interesting new world where execution is actually quite cheap.swyx: Mm-hmm.Felix: So maybe, maybe what you would do That's so crazy. The year. I know it's wild.swyx: You should be, ideas are cheap.Execution is the hard part. IFelix: know. And like the, we, we used to live in this world maybe where you would take a product manager and the product manager would go to a number of potential customers and in this like very low bandwidth way, would try to. Try to like tease out what are the problems they're having, what are they willing to buy?Um, and then maybe what can you build to like drive out that need and then you go back and you like draft a spec and you think about it and then like you make a design and you execute it. We internally philanthropic app, not pretty much closer to the point where we're like, don't even write a memo, just like build, like let's build all the candidates very quickly.Let's just build all of them and then pick the best ones. I think the, the decision that is most impactful both for the product as well for the users right now is like the way we put value on your local computer. I think that's a big decision point a lot of people have thought about. Should this thing, whatever it is, should it ultimately run into computer or should it run in the cloud?‘cause they're big trade offs, right?Alessio: I guess like if we solve auth, it would be easy to do in the cloud. But I think like the fact that I can just download any file from anywhere and then put it and cowork there, it's like a big unlock. Um, I mean it's interesting you mentioned reusing certain pieces. I think this is something I've been thinking about even with Claude Code, right?The price of like writing code is going to zero, blah, blah, blah. But it actually seems like the value of having some sort of platform substrate is like increasing because as you build these new things, you can kind of plug them together.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: So I almost feel like when people are saying, oh, the value of a lot of software is gonna zero because you can recreate it, to me it's almost like the opposite.It's like having an existing platform to build on top of. It's like even more valuable because you can kind of bolt things on.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: You have obviously mcps, you have skills, you have like obviously the models, which is a big part. All these things kind of come together. Do you feel like that's a valid way to think about it, where people should invest even more in kind of like primitives.To rebuild on or are you like recreating a lot of it each time because like things change and it's easier to rewrite than reuse?Felix: You know, I think, I think you're right. I think you're right that the holistic platform is really useful. And this is maybe a whole like a somewhat contrarian view to a lot of people in ai.I actually don't think that the future is going to be hyper personalized software down to the point where everyone is running their own version. Like, I actually think it's going to be quite hard for all of us to have our own internal chat tool and like, if I wanna talk to you, likeswyx: howFelix: is that gonna work, right?In the, in the context of cowork and how we build it, I think it's a bit of a combination. Like what the, the execution that gets cheap is not necessarily rebuilding all the primitives. I think our priori, there's also not a lot of value in it. So for instance, my team did not think about rebuilding clock code.We're like very much started with the. The core thesis of this should be Claude Code.Mm-hmm.Felix: And then we'll like build things on top of it. The part of the execution that gets a little cheaper is like, how do you take all of these Lego pieces and put them together in a way that makes sense for users?It's like actually valuable. You have so many different approaches now in terms of what kind of, what kind of things do you actually elevate to a primitive, do you strongly believe that all your products should be built by just combining primitive that the public also has available? Do you keep some things internal?Um, and I think that's still evolving, but I think what's probably gonna go away is like, I'm not sure if it's gonna fully go away, but I'm gonna say, I think for me personally, I will probably no longer try to come up with a really good product without testing up with people. This is not a new concept, but wherever you used to have to make costly decisions around, do we pick technology A or technology B, or do we like, um, build it this way, build it the other way.I really strongly believe now you just build all of them and try them out with a small focus group and then whatever, whatever is better is what you go with. Right. And that, that is probably quite different even from how we maybe worked a year ago. Right. Like, I think, I think this happened very recently.Alessio: Yeah. I started building something in on Electron since you're here. Coincidence. Uh, but then Electron and like SQL Light are like, there's like some issues that like between development and like, uh, building anyway. And I was like, let's just rebuild the whole thing in Swift and just recreated the whole thing in Swift.And it's like, I. It's done.swyx: You know, I didn't take any effort. I, I, I don't even know Swift.Alessio: Yeah, exactly. I was like, I'm the, I'm not reviewing it anyway, whatever. You can write in whatever language you pick, but the important stuff that I did was not write the electron bindings. Yeah. It was like the logic of what happens in the app, you know, and then the model is like, yeah, I can just recreate the same thing as withswyx: Yeah.I, I think you still want, especially for people who are doing like high performance software or like very complex software, uh, you still want like, some view of the architecture. Uh, but you can use markdown for that,Felix: right? Yeah.swyx: Uh, you don't actually have to read the code again. I, I'm still like on a sort of like a definitional thing.Um, can we build a good mental model of Claude Cowork? Um, this is what I have, right? Like you you said it's like fundamentally cloud co. We don't wanna touch it. There's the cloud app, there's clouding Chrome. I think you guys do something different in planning, but, uh, I've been talking with Tariq who is on the cloud co team, and you guys are, he's like, no, we just exposed planning.Maybe we can clarify like, what are the major pieces. That people should be aware. It goes into cowork, like,Felix: okay, I think you basically have them. So really, um, you can, you can take planning more or less out. I think there's a few things that are really valuable in cowork. Um, the virtual machine is probably the most powerful thing.So we currently run like a, we currently run like a lightweight VM and we put clocked out into the vm and we do that for, for, um, a number of reasons. Safety and security is a big one, but even if you, even if you ignore for a second safety and security and you're just like, okay, Yolo, I want this thing to do whatever.It is quite powerful to give Claus on computer that is like generally a good idea. And in terms of architecture and UX and everything else that we've been working on, philanthropic, it often is quite useful for you to like anthropomorphize, um, clot aggressively and just be like, this is a person. What will you do if you give a, if you had a person, right?Yeah. And the analogy I've given my dad this morning who is still like quite insistent on using chat even for like coding things, is if you were a developer and your employer told you that you don't need a computer, they're just gonna like, send you emails with a code and you send emails with code back like that, maybe work for Patrick Miles in the back, but that it's not very effective.Um, so what we can do with the VM is because it's a, it's a Linux system, Claude Code has more or less free reign to install whatever needs to install. It can install Python, it can install no js. We do have strict network ingress and egress controls. So you can still, as, as a user in like plain human language, make it clear to, to the entire system what you're okay with and what you're not okay with.But at no point do we have to ask a real person, like a, like a person who might be in marketing or a lawyer. I'd have to go to a lawyer and be like, are you okay with me installing Homebrew?Alessio: Yeah, yeah.Felix: Right. Because the implications of the question and the answer are complex and nuanced and like, not, not easy to reason about.This gives us a lot of distraction that makes Cloud very powerful. Now then around it, we, we do probably have a number of things that also keeps growing almost every single week that you're probably noticing that make cowork maybe better for certain tasks than just cloud. Cloud on its own. Yeah. But most of those actually live in the system prompt.They're about like, what can we infer about the work that you do? What can we, what can we intru in the system prompt to make that more effective? It's of course the like very tight integration with Cloud and Chrome. You're noticing that a lot of people, especially as the models get better, a lot of people throw up their hands when it comes to MCP connectors in this area.I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go through like 25 M CCP connectors, click off everywhere and then like half of them don't let me do the things anyway. So Cloud and Chrome is quite powerful because we can just talk to the cloud and Chrome sub agent and that will just do things for you.swyx: Yeah, so, so one example right in MCPI, honestly, I think that the state of MCP is kind of, kind of.Really hard to integrate. Um, I need to, I needed to add, uh, Figma MCP to the coding agent that I use.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh, and, but I didn't wanna read the docs, so I just had caught to it. And it's, it's great at reading docs and the same, same way I had to set up like a Google Cloud, um, account for some project I was working on and get some API keys somewhere.And Google Cloud is famously super hard to navigate, so I just didn't wanna deal with any of it. I just used Claude CoworkFelix: within the first week of developing on Core. This happened very, very quickly. Um, I caught myself by starting to use cowork for coding tasks, which is not ostensibly what we built it for, right?We don't need to. But I found myself, um, I found myself like on our internal, internal tool that we have for, to collect crashes and just like debugging information and I found myself sort like picking out the ones that I think we can easily fix versus the ones that might be like kernel corruption or something else on the operating system.And I found myself sort of picking these out and then just telling Clark, go fix this bug. I was like, what am I doing here? Go one level up, tell a cowork, I want you to go to all these crash tools. I want you to find all the bugs that you think are fixable and not like an operating system crash. And then I want you to tell another cloud to like fix all of that.Um, and that's, that's, that's sort of another cloud,swyx: just so it can spin up another instance or,Felix: uh, it, currently what I do is, um, and this is a bit of a hack, but I tell it to use clockwork remote to which website itself? Yeah, that's interesting. So you basically take, if you, if you imagine like a dashboard with like 20 bucks, you, this is remote control or clock or remote, or, sorry, I just wanted to confirm what, the way I'm using it is.I have cowork running and I'm telling cowork, here's where I normally go every morning to find the latest bugs. Go read the entire bug list, separate out which ones are fixable, which ones are, are fixable, and then for the fixable ones, four is this almost loop. For each bug, write a markdown file with a prompt.And then for each markdown v, that is a prompt. Start of a cloud set. So natively Claude Code hasswyx: this concept of subagents. Mm-hmm. And this is basically a subagent, but you're not using the subagent functionality.Felix: I'm not using the subagent functionality. And the reason I'm not is because I'm firing that off as a Claude Code remoteswyx: task.Felix: Yes. That's kind of nice. ‘cause then I can just fire it off. I can go to my next meeting and in Claude Code remote. Now the work is happening.swyx: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you see like you're already starting to use the cloud over your local machine. And I think this is one of those things where like. Shouldn't just everything just be cloud first, right?Felix: Ah, this is such a good group. I'm like solely bad about this. I have so many thoughts about that. Okay. So I generally believe that Silicon Valley overall is undervaluing the local computer. And my default argument for that is always how come we're all using MacBooks and not like an iPad or a Chromebook?Um, that there is like still value in, in having a local machine. And now when I think about Clot, it's this entity that is supposed to be very useful to you, like it tremendously useful to you. I think that entity needs to have access to all the same tools you have access to. Otherwise it's gonna be hamstrung in like all these complex ways.And there's, there's sort of two approaches we could take. We could say, okay, we're gonna like one by one chip away at everything that is at your computer and move it into the cloud. That's, that's one way to do it. Um, and I think other products have taken that path. I personally, this is a very personal opinion, but I personally, for the amount of tools that I use.Just don't have the patience to give another tool like permissions to every single thing and keep those permissions up to date. The second thing that I'm still grappling with, and I don't have a good answer for anyone just yet, but the second thing I'm still grappling with is what does it look like for someone to slurp up your entire work and put that in the cloud?Like if I, just as an example, like if you could click a button and it just clone your entire computer into the cloud, is that something that you would want? I'm not totally convinced yet that all everyone will. Mm-hmm. And that is sort of like upstream of all the technical issues we're gonna have. ‘cause like in general, I think the world is not ready for this kind of stuff.Like, I'll give you one quick example that would probably be very easy for us. So as a desktop app, we in theory with your permission, can do a lot of things on your computer, including reading your Chrome cookies. If we really want to do right, we could take your Chrome cookies, you would have to decrypt them for us.We could put those on the cloud if we really felt like it. Pretty easy solution. That would be super cool. We could just be like, oh, we can do all your tasks in the cloud now. Um, a lot of websites, thanks, include it. If, if they see the same authentication from like two different locations, we'll just lock down your account and now you have to go to the branch and be like, okay, I, I'm here with my passport.You actually know that. Wow. Yeah. As tired as well are of the term agent for the age agent future, I think there's a lot of stuff that sort of slowly needs to catch up and until that's the case, the way I, as someone's working on clock and make Cloud most effective is to like put it where you are working.swyx: Anything else? I thought with our mental model, so like, basically like, uh, part of me also just want, like the more I understand how it works, the more I can use it to its full potential. Right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And so what I'm get hearing from you is you told me to delete the planning thing. You're not doing anything special on, on the, that's only exclusive to Qua cowork.Felix: We have some tricks for this sort of like change week over week. We eval cowork maybe against different use cases than he would evil clock code, right? If you think about it this way. Okay, so like clock code is our eval clock cowork. Yeah. So clock code is like quite optimized for coding tasks and we mostly value it whether or not we're getting better or worse depending on how good it is at like a typical suite job.And Clark Cowork on the other hand, we evaluate more against typical knowledge work, the kind of stuff he would find in finance or in like maybe a, like in like a legal office. Um, my personal use case is always like managing my things, like managing my personal mortgage or something like that, right? Or like wealth planning for me and my family.Those are the kinds of use cases we eval, clock cowork on. And what you might be picking up on is like the subtle changes we make to the system. Prompt what we put in the system, prompt how we steer, clot with the tools we give it. Um, like either it'd be better in one or the other direction and whether there's a trade off, try us exist a lot.CLO code will be better of a code and Claude Cowork will be better. For non-coding tasks, will those gaps still exist in the next three generations of models? It's like a little unclear to me though.swyx: Yeah,Felix: because right now these like hyper optimizations we make, I'm not sure for how long they're still be relevant.swyx: I think what I was referring to was also, it, it just, uh, it qualitatively felt different when I probably, it's just all prompting and I'm reading too much into it, but like the, the fact that it comes out with like a nine step plan, I can edit the plan and give feedback and, and, and see it execute the plan.Yeah. It felt more long range than in Claude Code, but maybe that already existed in Claude Code and you just build a nicer UI for it.Felix: It's kind of both. Um, like if the Clark Code people who build the planning functionalities would city, they probably say yes, we have all of those things in Clark code and they do.Um, I think people tend to give cowork. Tasks that are maybe of longer time horizon, I thought isswyx: so long. Yeah.Felix: That's like one thing, right? It's just like that the, the chunk of work tends to be maybe a little bigger. And then the second thing is that because the work, when it gets longer, it gets a little bit more ambiguous.We do tell co-work to make heavy use of the planning tool or to make heavy use of the ask user question tool, right? We do want it to come up with like. Different scenarios of, okay, tease out what the user actually wants. Don't go off to work for like four hours and then come back with the wrong thing.And you're probably picking up on that.swyx: Yeah.Felix: Um, I wish I could tell you I like built this magical thing and it's like, there's some secret sauce,swyx: but No, no, no. I mean, it's, it's just clarity is good that, you know, engineers just want to know. Yeah. They can, they can plan around it. And then I think also for me, um, I am realizing I have to switch to my, my other machine because this is a new machine that doesn't have my session.But, uh, yeah, the, the, the planning is really important for, for me to like approve or like to see whether it's like, it's right. The ask is, the question is so beautifully presented. I mean, it also, it also available in like cursor and, and in Claude Code. But like, I, I think like it's so nice to see that it, like it's kind of for me like to understand that it gets me, it gets what I want to do.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Felix: It probably very hardswyx: just on the topical evals. Mm-hmm. When you say eval, I think people are very vague about what it means. Is it just like vibe testing or do you have like automated programmatic evals of Claude Cowork?Felix: When we say eval, uh, what we really mean is that we essentially take the entire transcript, including all the tools that clot has available ultimately to it, and we then measure what are the outputs, depending on what we tweak, right?So we do run that a lot. We use that in training. Um, we use that in, in like, if you sort of separate out post training from like the scaffolding around it. Cowork sort of exists in the scaffolding space, but obviously we also train on it a little bit. Um, so when we say eval, we mean given the certain transcript, what do the outputs look like?Including the file outputs as well as like the actual token outputs, like the ones that you see in the chat window.Alessio: I'm curious, um, how much of the failure modes are the model intelligence versus like the usage of the end tool to put the intelligence in? Like the well planning is like a good example, right?It's like one thing is to come up with a plan. The other thing is like make a nice spreadsheet. Yeah. That kind of runs you through the plan. Like how have you seen that? Well,Felix: the thing that I grapple with a lot is that whatever scaffolding you come up with, I think we still have a bit of sort of like model overhang where the model is dramatically more capable than right.Users end up using it for. And I think part of that is that we're just not getting the model all the tools to do all the things that's theory capable of, right? There's like one thing, um, however, whenever you do build the scaffolding, I'm sort of wondering at what point, at what point will that scaffolding go away and like how much you invest in figuring out what the right scaffolding is.It's kind of up to, it's a little bit of a bet. And one thing that I as an NJ quite enjoy is that like working in philanthropic and working at a frontier lab, I maybe have a little bit more insight into what's coming, coming down the chute in terms of like, what's the next model, what is the model capable of?What is good at, what is it bad at? And I'm, I'm increasingly wondering, is the right thing for us to like really invest too much in sort of these like scaffolding corrections where the model might otherwise not misbehave, but just not do the thing that you want?Alessio: Yeah.Felix: Or is it to just like give it as many capabilities as possible, try to make those safe so there's the worst case scenarios, likeno status might be otherwise.And then just simply wait a second for the next model drop. I'm personally, currently more leaning into the ladder. I think we're gonna see a lot of like applications and companies that do very impressive things with ai that in the short term might seem very effective ‘cause they're very specialized to individual use cases.But I think once models get better generalization and get better at like those specific use cases without being super guided on those, I'm not sure how long that's gonna stick around. And you can kind of, kind of already see this in like skills and NCP servers, right? Mm-hmm. We've, we've already seen sort of this like slow shift from MCP service to skills.And like, maybe a good example is Barry who made skills. He was initially hacking on something that honestly looked a lot, looked, looked a lot like what Cowork does today. It was sort of thinking about what if cowork, but for like people who don't wanna build code. Mm-hmm. And, um, he too did that as a prototype inside the desktop app.One of the first use cases we thought of were, okay, what, what are like coding like use cases that could really benefit from graphical interfaces and like from being a little separated from the actual underlying code. And everyone comes with the same answers. Data analysis,Alessio: right?Felix: Yeah. Or saying how many users do we have today?How many, like, it's always data analysis. And I think the thing that ultimately led to skills is that we wanted to connect this little prototype to our data warehouse and. The team very quickly discovered that like instead of building a custom tool for the thing to talk our data warehouse, they just like meet and embarked on follow like mm-hmm.Dear Claude, if you want to get data, here's the end point. Here's what the API looks like. You'll figure it out.swyx: Ah.Felix: And then it be hand over control. Yeah, yeah. Also just like maybe go one step up in the layer of abstractions, right. Just, yeah. Instead of, instead of telling the thing, here's ACL I, please call the CLI, or here's an MCP.Please call this ECT shape. Just like this is the end point. If you wanna know something, if you post here, maybe you can do post sql. It's gonna be okay. And that ended up being so effective that they started trying the same pattern of like just giving the model a markdown file that describes whatever it needs to do.That the whole thing eventually became skills and we're like. We should package this up. This is a good idea.swyx: Yeah. Um, we've had Barry Mahesh, uh, on, on our conference and uh, he's uh, definitely got a good idea there.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I wanted to show you the, how I've been using Claude Cowork.Felix: Uh, this is was my favorite part.swyx: This is this. So this is like me, uh, this is how we run the Discord. Uh, we literally, uh, at first I didn't trust Cloud Core. This was my very first usage.Felix: Okay.swyx: Right. So then I was like, okay, I will just try to manually download from Zoom all my recordings and upload it to YouTube. Yeah. Because this is a very laborious process.I got a click, click, click YouTube, um, isn't super user friendly. Uh, and it just did it. And then I was like, actually, you know, even the download from Zoom part, I should also. Put into Claude Cowork, and then I did it right. Here's a bunch of, and it starts compacting here, and it, and it, it starts to even be able to do things like look through the individual frames of the video to name the video so I can upload it auto automatically.Oh, that is, and this replaces my job as a YouTuber. We will forever appreciate your creative Yes. You know, and so that's great. Uh, but then by the way, it compacts and makes, makes like a new thing, right? So I, I don't, I don't have the initial, initial thing, but then I asked it to make its own skills so that it, so that something that's repetitive and one-off and human guided becomes more automated and I can use the skills independently and reuse them.Uh, and it obviously you can write skills and that goes into context and skills at the bottom here, which is, which is so nice. Um, so I have all these skills that, that I now sort of do on a weekly basis. Uh, I know you've released scheduled Coworks, which I haven't done yet, butFelix: course I should try them. I, I think this is like so wonderful and fun for me to see because.One thing that is very fun for me about skills in particular is that they're so easy to make. Like anyone can make a skill, like a text message, could be a skill, and they can be so hyper personalized to you. And this is like sort of the subtraction layer, right? Like, um, I, I'm just guessing, but I assume, heck, you are very good at your job.You're probably given this thing some guidance about how to do it, right? I,swyx: I just said, wrap everything up into, into a skill, right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And then, uh, and then I was like, actually, sometimes I might need to break, uh, things apart because some parts fail or some parts might be needed in individually. So I told it to split one skill into three skills.So it's like a skill splitting thing, and then there's like a parent skill that just orchestrates all of them if I want to use that. You know, like, um, I think that's, that's like really good. Uh, and, and, uh, there's, there's one more part, which is the, uh, Google Chrome thing that I told you about.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Where I'm like, okay, you know, what's better than uploading, using Claude Coworks to YouTube?Like actually. Looking at the docs to like programmatically upload to YouTube and then putting that in a skill. And I've never done that before. I don't want to deal with Google Cloud. Yeah. So Claude Cowork does it for me.Felix: That is really cool.swyx: So, so I, I just, I don't care. I just, like, I do a thing. I don't, it doesn't really matter.Felix: That is really cool. And then you've, I assume paired the skill just with the script that it's built.swyx: Yeah, no, I just update, update the skills.Felix: Oh, that is beautiful. Yeah. That's wonderful.swyx: It's kind of like a skill, like, uh, uh, basically I think like the way that people ease into Claude Cowork is like take a knowledge work task that you would normally be clicking around for and then, uh, try to turn, turn that, and then you do the, okay, well what if you went further?Okay. And then when, if you went further, when, if you, and it sort of expand the scope of cowork as you gain trust with it and, and also teach it how to replace you.Felix: Yeah. It's like a little bit like playing factorial, but for your own life. Uh, like you say, you start really small.swyx: Yeah.Felix: You start automating something really tiny and like.Once it clicks, you keep adding onto this like automation empire. Just like make your life easier and easier. My favorite skill has been, um, every single morning Kohlberg starts looking at my calendar and make sure that there's conflicts because people tend to schedule a lot of meetings, sometimes last minute, sometimes miss it soft and painful.And a lot of products have existed like that A lot. I've written in the custom prompt there. I haven't made it a skill, um, honestly should.swyx: Yeah.Felix: But I've given it like pretty clear instructions about okay, here are some people, if they book over other meetings, I'm probably gonna go to their meeting. Like if Dario schedules a meeting.swyx: Right.Felix: Not try to reschedule down. Right. Um, and I think there's some other rules in there about like what kind of meetings I care more about what kind of meetings I care less about. What is okay to like, maybe pun like when I want to be, when I want to be working, when I don't want to be working. And it's those really small things that I can think kind of click with people.Right. When we launch co-work, I think one of the US races that went most viral on Twitter. X was clean up your desktop, which is stuff, because silly, that's such a smart thing, right? Like you don't need to model to clean up your desktop. Not really. Um,swyx: like this, like clean up my desktop.Felix: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.swyx: I need to, I need to choose my desktop, right? I guess give it access to my desktop.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Okay. Uh, okay. This is very scary. Oh, we'll do it.Alessio: I did, I did it with my downloads folder. It was like, you have so many term sheets and there's like eight copies of your rental lease for your office. I was like, all right.Like, don't yell at me.Felix: It's like, it's not such a small task. And then like, I, I would never go out there and normally otherwise and tell people I've pulled a product. It can organize your folder. Right. Um, because it feels small. But I think to your point like,swyx: oh, here's, here's the, here's the ask user questions.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh,Felix: beautiful. Right. Elite obvious junk. You probably shouldn't click that.Alessio: No.Felix: If he's not done right.swyx: As long as it's reversible, I don'tAlessio: make up blend to,swyx: yeah. Uh, yeah. No, I, I have a, I have a typical, everything is super messy folder. So, yes. I think this, this is super helpful. So this is a pretty simple task.Mm-hmm. But I've, okay, here it is. Right. Here's the progress. I don't see this in, that's why I'm like, this gotta be something different than, uh, than Claude Code, because I'm like, weFelix: do. Yeah. That's, we do system prompt that. We're like, all right. We want you to think about like, this task Yeah. Methodology.Yeah.swyx: And then I can, I can, I can do like little suggestions for, for, for these things. It's beautiful. Look at this. I, I can, I can like say like, oh, don't do that. Don't do this. It's amazing.Felix: I'm so happy. You like it. Um, I mean, the other way around, like we're part of the Clark core team, if you would like this in Clark COVID.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so yeah, I mean, uh, this is really good. Obviously I, I'm like kind of raving about it. Uh, you know, I have other things like sign up for pg e so if you can do phone calls for me, that'd be great. Um, I, I do, peopleFelix: have done that. Obviously you can't do that natively, but people have done that with like, various other providers.swyx: Yeah. Uh, and then this is like signing up for the Figma MCP. Um, I, I really am trying to do like everything, um, data analysis as well. I do think, um, oh, design to code, uh, very, very good. Right? So like, here's a Figma file, take it. And then this is where like a lot of other tasks is like knowledge work, like replace my manual clicking, but this is no, I would normally use Claude Code or uh, Claude Code for this, but because I perceive that you have better Chrome integrationFelix: mm-hmm.swyx: I, I think you can actually do a better job of this. And I, this, this is one shot at my, uh, conference website.Felix: That's pretty cool. Like at some point I would love to like, hear how you feel about code. In the desktop apps, which is like I never use, which is the, the same team. Same team.swyx: So I use the call code in terminal, which I, I perceive to be the default way of cloud coding.Felix: So one thing this has,swyx: sorry, I'm just like, I'm notFelix: here, I'm not here. All products. Can I talk about other stuff? Like I, I'm not sure if people out there wanna like hear me advertise my stuff for like an hour. Please do that. Um, this thing is like a builtin browser, which is a thing a lot of products have said.Yeah, it's a builtin browser. And I think giving cloud eyes into like what you're actually working on makes it so much more effective. And that's probably what you've seen in cohort because it can see Chrome, it can like debug the dom, it can like see things. Um, that does make it more powerful.swyx: Yeah. So, so I think, uh, my mental model was kind broken.‘cause I only use this cowork because I thought it had a, a browser thing in it. But I understand that the Claude Code app. The app version of Claude Code does have a built-in browser. I've seen, I've seen this preview thing.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I just, I've never used it.Felix: But in the end, in the end, you sort of have it by hard.Yeah. You basically get the same thing. Right? Like the, the, the additional skill that you're describing is chart is better if we can see what it's working on. Right. That's, that's sort of like the summary here and like whether it's using your Chromeswyx: Yeah.Felix: Or it's just like making up its own little like browser.It doesn't really make a big difference because either way it's gonna see what it's working on and that just makes it much better. And then you don't have to run QA for your cloud.swyx: Why doesn't it pick up my existing Claude Code sessions? ‘cause I, I mean, obviously I've used Claude Code, but Excellent question.Um, don't have a good answer other than like, we're honest. Just haven't Yeah. This is what the Open AI team does. Okay. Uh, cool. I I I don't have other, like, I, I just, I, I do wanna expand people's minds and also maybe show people if they haven't really done it, but like, I, I think it's very interesting how I sometimes use this more than I use, I mean, I use dia, right?Yeah. Um, I, and I use, uh, I've used like all the other agentic browsers and philanthropic didn't have to build an agentic browser because you just had Claude Cowork and that's enough.Felix: Yeah. I also think like maybe integrating with number of excellent browsers out there, it's like currently on my personal priority list, a little higher than like trying to rebuild a browser from scratch.Yeah. You know, never say never, but I think going back to this idea of like, we wanna plug this into an entire existing workflow, I think our goal is actually to not replace any of the applications we have in your computer. But instead of like, work really well within a new workflow,Alessio: make the new one. Yeah.Are, it seems that nowadays, especially on the browser, most of the innovation is like user ergonomics. It's not really like the underlying browser engine. So I feel like to call it, it doesn't really matter if it's like the, uh, or Chrome or Alice, whatever.Felix: Yeah. We wanna, we wanna meet you wherever you are.Which is like, like obviously I would say that, but it's also just generally true because I don't wanna shrink my potential user base artificially by saying, okay, like, I'm gonna start building for the people who are willing to switch browsers.Alessio: Right.Felix: That's such a, like, you know, like many lawsuits have been filed over who gets to review the browser and like a lot of money has switched hands over the question of like, which browser is default and which search engine is default within the browser.Um, I just wanna build for, yeah, I wanna build for swyx essentially. Like, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna build for people who have a number of annoying tasks that they feel like. Maybe clock could do it. Could do it for them.Alessio: Yeah. What do you think about skills portability? I think there's been one thing, I use another thing called zo, which is kinda like a cloud computer plus agent.And I have a skill to add visitors to the office. Yeah. So whenever somebody has to come in after hours, they need to check in downstairs. Um, but I wanna like text the thing, so it doesn't really work in, in cowork, but now that skill is in the zone harness and it's not in my cowork thing. And then if I make a change, it's gotta, I gotta sync them.How do you see that going? Like I see memory as like. Cloud personal, kinda like, I don't necessarily want my memories to be cross thing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: But I do want my skills to be cross agent that I use. I think with MTPs, people do the same thing. It's like, oh, Mt. P Gateway. Mt P registry. I don't really know if that's like a business.So I'm curious like if you've had any thoughts in the area.Felix: I think for me, this is sort of where I go back to the really basic primitives for our skills are file-based instead of like this complicated thing that exists inside a place somewhere that is like super proprietary. I'm really leaning into the idea of like, it's all just files and vultures, and that makes it very portable on its own.Right. We do have skills as part of this container format, which was just called plugins.Alessio: Mm-hmm.Felix: And plugins are available both for Claude Code and Claude Code work the same format, and you can install plugins. This works in cowork today. You can basically say, I'm gonna add a whole, like just a GitHub repo as a.Skills marketplace or like a plugin marketplace. And that's how we're doing portability. I think we have a lot of room left to grow in. How do we make it easy for people to know that they can write skills? How do we make it easy for them to just like, share a skill with you? Because obviously all the words I just said, right?Like I'm losing most of the knowledge worker base out there, right. And start by saying, oh, you can connect to GitHub repo. It's not exactly how most people will end up working in like a general knowledge worker space. Um, but I think there's something there. And another thing that's there that I think has not really been properly explored is the, the, the combination of which part of the skill is very portable and then which part of the skill is like very personal to you.Right. And I think that's something we haven't really solved as an industry. Hmm.swyx: It's like, which, how you wanna introduce more structure to the skill or have always have like. Public skill, private skill, you know, pair. Yeah, yeah. Kind of. I think there'sFelix: like a, like the easiest way to do this, which is we do like use string interpolation or something.Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Insert username here, insert like phone number, insert, like known folder, locations, that kind of stuff. Um, that's probably clunky. That's why we haven't built it. Um, but I do think someone is going to come up with like an interesting way to keep everything we like about skills. The portability is just a file, it's just marked down.It's just text, honestly. Right. Like a text file words. The complete lack of structure, which means you don't need any kind of tutorial to write a skill. Just like explain it to Claude the way he would explain it to me and Claude will probably get it before I work. Mm-hmm. Right? You're just like, for booking a flight, tell Claude how to book a flight the same way we tell him somewhere.I just started working here today. But combine that with a very like, personal thing. Um, maybe we'll stick with a booking a flight example. I don't actually think. AI should be booking flights. I think the tools we have is yes.swyx: Yeah. Finally, somebody says it. It's the default demo that everyone's making.Felix: I'mswyx: like, I even against like booking demos, it is not a good showcase.Felix: Yeah. I'm like, I just wanna book my flight myself. But, um, I think there's a lot of things that have a personal and a non-personal component and that's maybe why people reach for flight booking because some things are very universal. Yeah. Super flight is usually better, right? Like few people try to book the most expensive flight.And then some things are quite personal about like what times you prefer, which seat you prefer, which airports you prefer. Combining that and like a skill format that is actually portable, compatible, easy to understand for people. I think that would be very exciting. We just haven't figured it out yet.Alessio: Yeah, I think the text part every, I think everybody by now has some sort of like cloud file thing. Either Dropbox, Google Drive, whatever. So it feels like in a way it should basically like sim link. My skills into all my agent harnesses. Yeah. Just keep those ing like we have internally this like valuable tokens repo, which is like all the commands sub agents.It's good. Uh, and then I build like a TUI where you can start it and be like, you know, install this command and this three sub agents into this agent in this folder and just copy paste this. It doesn't do anything. It literally cp the file into that. But I feel like there should be something similar where like whenever I go into a new thing, it's like, hey, here's like the link to exactly the cloud folder and just bring down these skills into this.Yeah. Like today it doesn't quite work like that. Like if I install a new agent, I cannot, I have to like copy paste all the skills and I don't even know where they are.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: That's like the big problem. It's like where do I find them?Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Um, so I'm curious like in the future like that, that almost feels like my personal productivity thing will be my skills.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Is not really the product that I use. Everybody has access to the same product. But today there's, that just looks like copy pasting ME files, IFelix: think so many things I, I really like thinking about agents and LLMs just as like another coworker. So many attempts have made to build documentation companies that are like, oh, we're gonna solve oil documentation problems.Um, I myself, like spend a little bit of time working in notion, right? I'm like deeply familiar with the concept of let's get everyone on the same page. Mm-hmm. Right? And what you're basically saying here is you want all your agents to be on the same page about your preferences, about the skills, about the way they ought to work and like how they ought to execute.And I'm not sure what the right thing is going to be if it's going to be some, some company that can say, all right, we're as an independent body, we're not trying to like, push into any particular product. It's our job to be like the skill authority, and we provide, I don't know, we're gonna be the Dropbox of skills and we can just sim link us into all the products we want to use.I'm not sure that's gonna be viable business, but as, as an idea, it would be cool.Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think so many things are just going away as businesses. It's like, how am I supposed to do it? I'm not even asking somebody to make a product about it. Like yeah. I wanna personally know. And there's things like you said, it's like you almost wanna skill and then interpolate it between personal and work.So if I'm booking a fly for work, it's different than I'm booking a flight personally.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: In some ways, yeah. But like a lot of the scaffolding is the same, you know? Cool.Felix: I mean, as an engineer I will tell you like, you know, technic a person to technic a person. I will just be like siblings.Alessio: Well that's what, that's what I do.We call that MD and agents that MD's just the same how sim length. And so it is like, that works, but it feels like, yeah, I don't know. MaybeFelix: you can always go one, you can always tell cowork problem and then cowork will solve it for you. Just make the siblings. That's like one way to do it.Alessio: That's true.That's true. All right. Everything is called cowork.Felix: Uh, potentially spicy. Question for both of you.swyx: Uh, which of these industries will go away?Alessio: Okay, so what Felix was saying before is interesting. There's busy like. The short term pressure of like, we need to turn these tokens into valuable things, which is I should build the last mile product that harness the model.And then there's the question of like, long term, which ones are gonna still be valuable? And I think you're kind of seeing this today with like, uh, you know, the coding space in a way is kind of like everybody's moving up and up in stack because you need more than just turning tokens into code. I think search, like enterprise search is kind of saying the same thing.Like with G Clean and like all these different companies is like, at the end of the day, if Cowork is the one doing all the work, the search itself is like such a small part that like, I don't know if I'm really gonna pay that much money just to do search. It's almost like everything is like a cowork vertical.So like how much can cowork first party support?swyx: Mm-hmm.Alessio: And how much can it not? I think for a lot of these things, the planning thing that you were showing do Which one? The planning. The planning.swyx: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.Alessio: That's one thing where like most of the value that these agents provide is like they're better at planning for specific tasks.Yeah. And have better tools for it.swyx: Yeah.Alessio: But I think the models are now moving in that direction and they have the right harnesses and they're on your computer. So for me it's almost like if for the end customer trusts your startup to be the provider of that task result, then I think that works. This is, uh, something that, this is a shortswyx: spike that we're, we're working on.Uh, yeah.Felix: I think, look, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this, like I don't think I'm the best person to like actually estimate which industry is going to be hit the hardest. But I do think that at philanthropic as a group of people, we're deeply worried about the impact. That the tools are going to have on the labor market, especially for like junior employees that, because I think, I think it's only honest to say that when we talk about automating a lot away, a lot of the work that we personally find annoying that we maybe think's not the best use of our time.In a lot of industries, that kind of work would've been given to a junior entry level employee. Yeah. Right. And I think it's, it's only, it's only right to be really worried about that and like worry what that's going to do in particular to people like enter the shop market.Alessio: Mm-hmm. I have a solution for that.Which you make them, you create simulative jobs for them.Felix: Okay.Alessio: So this is, this is like half joke, half true. So if you think about software engineering, when you're like a junior engineer, you work like 1, 2, 3 years. And in those three years there's like maybe like a handful of moments where like you really learn something.And then a bunch of other days where like you're not really progressing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: I think now we can use AI and these models to actually like shortcut these careers and almost like simulate the early years of your work and like just make them like super dense and like these learnings, it's like, hey, we're working on this feature, which is like a distributed system and you need to learn this thing that might take three months at a company.And so you take three months here, it's like we're just simulating the whole thing. It's actually not a real thing. And in one week we kind of speed run through the whole thing and you kind of learn your lesson from there. And we kind of repeat that in like one year. You basically get like three years worth of like projects and experience.Yeah. I think it's harder for like things like sales or for things like, you know, marketing because you don't really have a way to get the feedback loop. But I think a lot of it, it sounds kind of silly, it's like you're making the new effect job, but it's almost like you go to college, right? People pay to learn how to do it, and this might feel similar where it's like, hey, we have the.Jane Street Simulator is like, you wanna come work at Jane Street? We'll just put you in the simulator for like three months.Felix: Wow.Alessio: And you'll come out of it. It's like, you know, I'm ready.Felix: So there, there is an aspect here. I'm not an expert enough to like actually know what, what is going to happen to marketing or legal or finance, right?Like, I don't work in those jobs and I, I don't think I should talk about them, but I am an engineer and I think I have a pretty good idea of what engineering is like. And I think one thing we're sort of seeing is that as a company and also as, as the public, we're like deeply worried about entry level, but we're also seeing more senior engineers accelerate it.If like they're more productive. They, they actually increase the value they provide. And the thing that I'm thinking about a lot is the fact that even before all of this happened, um, I've always had a lot of respect for the University of Waterloo and the, the new grads that have joined my teams as from coming from the University of Waterloo always felt like.More ready than new grads will like literally spend their entire time at the university regardless of how good, but never actually had to work inside an environment where you have to ship things that eventually will be used by users. And I'm, I'm, I'm German. I like initially went to German University and I think the, the, the like information systems programs, there tend to be very theoretical, right?Like I often give people the example of like trying

In this episode of Take-Away with Sam Oches, Sam talks with Tom Cortese, CEO of Counter Service, an upscale sandwich concept with four New York City locations. In 2012 Tom cofounded Peloton, a brand that disrupted the fitness industry and has since become a mainstream sensation. His business partner in Counter Service is Chipotle founder Steve Ells, who in 2024 launched a robot-powered plant-based concept called Kernel before quickly pivoting to sandwiches when that automated model failed to catch on in a big way with consumers. Now Steve and Tom are using a more refined technology strategy — specifically a proprietary restaurant management system that helps them create efficiencies with labor and supply chain — to reimagine what is possible in a scalable sandwich concept. Tom joined the podcast to talk about why the restaurant industry is ripe for disruption today, the role that technology should play in that disruption, and why he thinks Counter Service could become a national sensation just like his previous company. In this conversation, you'll find out why:When innovating, your first shot isn't as important as consistent follow-throughIncredibly niche concepts aren't built for scaleHospitality is a quintessential part of building a scalable business Technology unlocks the potential of high-quality ingredientsDisruptive restaurant concepts discover how to create a range of great dishes with a small number of repeatable, delicious recipes Have feedback or ideas for Take-Away? Email Sam at sam.oches@informa.com.

Turbopuffer came out of a reading app.In 2022, Simon was helping his friends at Readwise scale their infra for a highly requested feature: article recommendations and semantic search. Readwise was paying ~$5k/month for their relational database and vector search would cost ~$20k/month making the feature too expensive to ship. In 2023 after mulling over the problem from Readwise, Simon decided he wanted to “build a search engine” which became Turbopuffer.We discuss:• Simon's path: Denmark → Shopify infra for nearly a decade → “angel engineering” across startups like Readwise, Replicate, and Causal → turbopuffer almost accidentally becoming a company • The Readwise origin story: building an early recommendation engine right after the ChatGPT moment, seeing it work, then realizing it would cost ~$30k/month for a company spending ~$5k/month total on infra and getting obsessed with fixing that cost structure • Why turbopuffer is “a search engine for unstructured data”: Simon's belief that models can learn to reason, but can't compress the world's knowledge into a few terabytes of weights, so they need to connect to systems that hold truth in full fidelity • The three ingredients for building a great database company: a new workload, a new storage architecture, and the ability to eventually support every query plan customers will want on their data • The architecture bet behind turbopuffer: going all in on object storage and NVMe, avoiding a traditional consensus layer, and building around the cloud primitives that only became possible in the last few years • Why Simon hated operating Elasticsearch at Shopify: years of painful on-call experience shaped his obsession with simplicity, performance, and eliminating state spread across multiple systems • The Cursor story: launching turbopuffer as a scrappy side project, getting an email from Cursor the next day, flying out after a 4am call, and helping cut Cursor's costs by 95% while fixing their per-user economics • The Notion story: buying dark fiber, tuning TCP windows, and eating cross-cloud costs because Simon refused to compromise on architecture just to close a deal faster • Why AI changes the build-vs-buy equation: it's less about whether a company can build search infra internally, and more about whether they have time especially if an external team can feel like an extension of their own • Why RAG isn't dead: coding companies still rely heavily on search, and Simon sees hybrid retrieval semantic, text, regex, SQL-style patterns becoming more important, not less • How agentic workloads are changing search: the old pattern was one retrieval call up front; the new pattern is one agent firing many parallel queries at once, turning search into a highly concurrent tool call • Why turbopuffer is reducing query pricing: agentic systems are dramatically increasing query volume, and Simon expects retrieval infra to adapt to huge bursts of concurrent search rather than a small number of carefully chosen calls • The philosophy of “playing with open cards”: Simon's habit of being radically honest with investors, including telling Lachy Groom he'd return the money if turbopuffer didn't hit PMF by year-end • The “P99 engineer”: Simon's framework for building a talent-dense company, rejecting by default unless someone on the team feels strongly enough to fight for the candidate —Simon Hørup Eskildsen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sirupsen• X: https://x.com/Sirupsen• https://sirupsen.com/aboutturbopuffer• https://turbopuffer.com/Full Video PodTimestamps00:00:00 The PMF promise to Lachy Groom00:00:25 Intro and Simon's background00:02:19 What turbopuffer actually is00:06:26 Shopify, Elasticsearch, and the pain behind the company00:10:07 The Readwise experiment that sparked turbopuffer00:12:00 The insight Simon couldn't stop thinking about00:17:00 S3 consistency, NVMe, and the architecture bet00:20:12 The Notion story: latency, dark fiber, and conviction00:25:03 Build vs. buy in the age of AI00:26:00 The Cursor story: early launch to breakout customer00:29:00 Why code search still matters00:32:00 Search in the age of agents00:34:22 Pricing turbopuffer in the AI era00:38:17 Why Simon chose Lachy Groom00:41:28 Becoming a founder on purpose00:44:00 The “P99 engineer” philosophy00:49:30 Bending software to your will00:51:13 The future of turbopuffer00:57:05 Simon's tea obsession00:59:03 Tea kits, X Live, and P99 LiveTranscriptSimon Hørup Eskildsen: I don't think I've said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like, local Lockie. Like if this doesn't have PMF by the end of the year, like we'll just like return all the money to you. But it's just like, I don't really, we, Justine and I don't wanna work on this unless it's really working.So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we're really gonna go for it. We're gonna hire a bunch of people. We're just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don't know how to play a game, I just play with open cards. Lockey was the only person that didn't, that didn't freak out. He was like, I've never heard anyone say that before.Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Leading Space podcast. This is Celesio Pando, Colonel Laz, and I'm joined by Swix, editor of Leading Space.swyx: Hello. Hello, uh, we're still, uh, recording in the Ker studio for the first time. Very excited. And today we are joined by Simon Eski. Of Turbo Farer welcome.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Thank you so much for having me.swyx: Turbo Farer has like really gone on a huge tear, and I, I do have to mention that like you're one of, you're not my newest member of the Danish AHU Mafia, where like there's a lot of legendary programmers that have come out of it, like, uh, beyond Trotro, Rasmus, lado Berg and the V eight team and, and Google Maps team.Uh, you're mostly a Canadian now, but isn't that interesting? There's so many, so much like strong Danish presence.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I was writing a post, um, not that long ago about sort of the influences. So I grew up in Denmark, right? I left, I left when, when I was 18 to go to Canada to, to work at Shopify. Um, and so I, like, I've, I would still say that I feel more Danish than, than Canadian.This is also the weird accent. I can't say th because it, this is like, I don't, you know, my wife is also Canadian, um, and I think. I think like one of the things in, in Denmark is just like, there's just such a ruthless pragmatism and there's also a big focus on just aesthetics. Like, they're like very, people really care about like where, what things look like.Um, and like Canada has a lot of attributes, US has, has a lot of attributes, but I think there's been lots of the great things to carry. I don't know what's in the water in Ahu though. Um, and I don't know that I could be considered part of the Mafi mafia quite yet, uh, compared to the phenomenal individuals we just mentioned.Barra OV is also, uh, Danish Canadian. Okay. Yeah. I don't know where he lives now, but, and he's the PHP.swyx: Yeah. And obviously Toby German, but moved to Canada as well. Yes. Like this is like import that, uh, that, that is an interesting, um, talent move.Alessio: I think. I would love to get from you. Definition of Turbo puffer, because I think you could be a Vector db, which is maybe a bad word now in some circles, you could be a search engine.It's like, let, let's just start there and then we'll maybe run through the history of how you got to this point.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. Yeah. So Turbo Puffer is at this point in time, a search engine, right? We do full text search and we do vector search, and that's really what we're specialized in. If you're trying to do much more than that, like then this might not be the right place yet, but Turbo Buffer is all about search.The other way that I think about it is that we can take all of the world's knowledge, all of the exabytes and exabytes of data that there is, and we can use those tokens to train a model, but we can't compress all of that into a few terabytes of weights, right? Compress into a few terabytes of weights, how to reason with the world, how to make sense of the knowledge.But we have to somehow connect it to something externally that actually holds that like in full fidelity and truth. Um, and that's the thing that we intend to become. Right? That's like a very holier than now kind of phrasing, right? But being the search engine for unstructured, unstructured data is the focus of turbo puffer at this point in time.Alessio: And let's break down. So people might say, well, didn't Elasticsearch already do this? And then some other people might say, is this search on my data, is this like closer to rag than to like a xr, like a public search thing? Like how, how do you segment like the different types of search?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The way that I generally think about this is like, there's a lot of database companies and I think if you wanna build a really big database company, sort of, you need a couple of ingredients to be in the air.We don't, which only happens roughly every 15 years. You need a new workload. You basically need the ambition that every single company on earth is gonna have data in your database. Multiple times you look at a company like Oracle, right? You will, like, I don't think you can find a company on earth with a digital presence that it not, doesn't somehow have some data in an Oracle database.Right? And I think at this point, that's also true for Snowflake and Databricks, right? 15 years later it's, or even more than that, there's not a company on earth that doesn't, in. Or directly is consuming Snowflake or, or Databricks or any of the big analytics databases. Um, and I think we're in that kind of moment now, right?I don't think you're gonna find a company over the next few years that doesn't directly or indirectly, um, have all their data available for, for search and connect it to ai. So you need that new workload, like you need something to be happening where there's a new workload that causes that to happen, and that new workload is connecting very large amounts of data to ai.The second thing you need. The second condition to build a big database company is that you need some new underlying change in the storage architecture that is not possible from the databases that have come before you. If you look at Snowflake and Databricks, right, commoditized, like massive fleet of HDDs, like that was not possible in it.It just wasn't in the air in the nineties, right? So you just didn't, we just didn't build these systems. S3 and and and so on was not around. And I think the architecture that is now possible that wasn't possible 15 years ago is to go all in on NVME SSDs. It requires a particular type of architecture for the database that.It's difficult to retrofit onto the databases that are already there, including the ones you just mentioned. The second thing is to go all in on OIC storage, more so than we could have done 15 years ago. Like we don't have a consensus layer, we don't really have anything. In fact, you could turn off all the servers that Turbo Buffer has, and we would not lose any data because we have all completely all in on OIC storage.And this means that our architecture is just so simple. So that's the second condition, right? First being a new workload. That means that every company on earth, either indirectly or directly, is using your database. Second being, there's some new storage architecture. That means that the, the companies that have come before you can do what you're doing.I think the third thing you need to do to build a big database company is that over time you have to implement more or less every Cory plan on the data. What that means is that you. You can't just get stuck in, like, this is the one thing that a database does. It has to be ever evolving because when someone has data in the database, they over time expect to be able to ask it more or less every question.So you have to do that to get the storage architecture to the limit of what, what it's capable of. Those are the three conditions.swyx: I just wanted to get a little bit of like the motivation, right? Like, so you left Shopify, you're like principal, engineer, infra guy. Um, you also head of kernel labs, uh, inside of Shopify, right?And then you consulted for read wise and that it kind of gave you that, that idea. I just wanted you to tell that story. Um, maybe I, you've told it before, but, uh, just introduce the, the. People to like the, the new workload, the sort of aha moment for turbo PufferSimon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. So yeah, I spent almost a decade at Shopify.I was on the infrastructure team, um, from the fairly, fairly early days around 2013. Um, at the time it felt like it was growing so quickly and everything, all the metrics were, you know, doubling year on year compared to the, what companies are contending with today. It's very cute in growth. I feel like lot some companies are seeing that month over month.Um, of course. Shopify compound has been compounding for a very long time now, but I spent a decade doing that and the majority of that was just make sure the site is up today and make sure it's up a year from now. And a lot of that was really just the, um, you know, uh, the Kardashians would drive very, very large amounts of, of data to, to uh, to Shopify as they were rotating through all the merch and building out their businesses.And we just needed to make sure we could handle that. Right. And sometimes these were events, a million requests per second. And so, you know, we, we had our own data centers back in the day and we were moving to the cloud and there was so much sharding work and all of that that we were doing. So I spent a decade just scaling databases ‘cause that's fundamentally what's the most difficult thing to scale about these sites.The database that was the most difficult for me to scale during that time, and that was the most aggravating to be on call for, was elastic search. It was very, very difficult to deal with. And I saw a lot of projects that were just being held back in their ambition by using it.swyx: And I mean, self-hosted.Self-hosted. ‘causeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: it's, yeah, and it commercial, this is like 2015, right? So it's like a very particular vintage. Right. It's probably better at a lot of these things now. Um, it was difficult to contend with and I'm just like, I just think about it. It's an inverted index. It should be good at these kinds of queries and do all of this.And it was, we, we often couldn't get it to do exactly what we needed to do or basically get lucine to do, like expose lucine raw to, to, to what we needed to do. Um, so that was like. Just something that we did on the side and just panic scaled when we needed to, but not a particular focus of mine. So I left, and when I left, I, um, wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do.I mean, it spent like a decade inside of the same company. I'd like grown up there. I started working there when I was 18.swyx: You only do Rails?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Rails. And he's a Rails guy. Uh, love Rails. So good. Um,Alessio: we all wish we could still work in Rails.swyx: I know know. I know, but some, I tried learning Ruby.It's just too much, like too many options to do the same thing. It's, that's my, I I know there's a, there's a way to do it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I love it. I don't know that I would use it now, like given cloud code and, and, and cursor and everything, but, um, um, but still it, like if I'm just sitting down and writing a teal code, that's how I think.But anyway, I left and I wasn't, I talked to a couple companies and I was like, I don't. I need to see a little bit more of the world here to know what I'm gonna like focus on next. Um, and so what I decided is like I was gonna, I called it like angel engineering, where I just hopped around in my friend's companies in three months increments and just helped them out with something.Right. And, and just vested a bit of equity and solved some interesting infrastructure problem. So I worked with a bunch of companies at the time, um, read Wise was one of them. Replicate was one of them. Um, causal, I dunno if you've tried this, it's like a, it's a spreadsheet engine Yeah. Where you can do distribution.They sold recently. Yeah. Um, we've been, we used that in fp and a at, um, at Turbo Puffer. Um, so a bunch of companies like this and it was super fun. And so we're the Chachi bt moment happened, I was with. With read Wise for a stint, we were preparing for the reader launch, right? Which is where you, you cue articles and read them later.And I was just getting their Postgres up to snuff, like, which basically boils down to tuning, auto vacuum. So I was doing that and then this happened and we were like, oh, maybe we should build a little recommendation engine and some features to try to hook in the lms. They were not that good yet, but it was clear there was something there.And so I built a small recommendation engine just, okay, let's take the articles that you've recently read, right? Like embed all the articles and then do recommendations. It was good enough that when I ran it on one of the co-founders of Rey's, like I found out that I got articles about, about having a child.I'm like, oh my God, I didn't, I, I didn't know that, that they were having a child. I wasn't sure what to do with that information, but the recommendation engine was good enough that it was suggesting articles, um, about that. And so there was, there was recommendations and uh, it actually worked really well.But this was a company that was spending maybe five grand a month in total on all their infrastructure and. When I did the napkin math on running the embeddings of all the articles, putting them into a vector index, putting it in prod, it's gonna be like 30 grand a month. That just wasn't tenable. Right?Like Read Wise is a proudly bootstrapped company and it's paying 30 grand for infrastructure for one feature versus five. It just wasn't tenable. So sort of in the bucket of this is useful, it's pretty good, but let us, let's return to it when the costs come down.swyx: Did you say it grows by feature? So for five to 30 is by the number of, like, what's the, what's the Scaling factor scale?It scales by the number of articles that you embed.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: It does, but what I meant by that is like five grand for like all of the other, like the Heroku, dinos, Postgres, like all the other, and this then storage is 30. Yeah. And then like 30 grand for one feature. Right. Which is like, what other articles are related to this one.Um, so it was just too much right to, to power everything. Their budget would've been maybe a few thousand dollars, which still would've been a lot. And so we put it in a bucket of, okay, we're gonna do that later. We'll wait, we will wait for the cost to come down. And that haunted me. I couldn't stop thinking about it.I was like, okay, there's clearly some latent demand here. If the cost had been a 10th, we would've shipped it and. This was really the only data point that I had. Right. I didn't, I, I didn't, I didn't go out and talk to anyone else. It was just so I started reading Right. I couldn't, I couldn't help myself.Like I didn't know what like a vector index is. I, I generally barely do about how to generate the vectors. There was a lot of hype about, this is a early 2023. There was a lot of hype about vector databases. There were raising a lot of money and it's like, I really didn't know anything about it. It's like, you know, trying these little models, fine tuning them.Like I was just trying to get sort of a lay of the land. So I just sat down. I have this. A GitHub repository called Napkin Math. And on napkin math, there's just, um, rows of like, oh, this is how much bandwidth. Like this is how many, you know, you can do 25 gigabytes per second on average to dram. You can do, you know, five gigabytes per second of rights to an SSD, blah blah.All of these numbers, right? And S3, how many you could do per, how much bandwidth can you drive per connection? I was just sitting down, I was like, why hasn't anyone build a database where you just put everything on O storage and then you puff it into NVME when you use the data and you puff it into dram if you're, if you're querying it alive, it's just like, this seems fairly obvious and you, the only real downside to that is that if you go all in on o storage, every right will take a couple hundred milliseconds of latency, but from there it's really all upside, right?You do the first go, it takes half a second. And it sort of occurred to me as like, well. The architecture is really good for that. It's really good for AB storage, it's really good for nvm ESSD. It's, well, you just couldn't have done that 10 years ago. Back to what we were talking about before. You really have to build a database where you have as few round trips as possible, right?This is how CPUs work today. It's how NVM E SSDs work. It's how as, um, as three works that you want to have a very large amount of outstanding requests, right? Like basically go to S3, do like that thousand requests to ask for data in one round trip. Wait for that. Get that, like, make a new decision. Do it again, and try to do that maybe a maximum of three times.But no databases were designed that way within NVME as is ds. You can drive like within, you know, within a very low multiple of DRAM bandwidth if you use it that way. And same with S3, right? You can fully max out the network card, which generally is not maxed out. You get very, like, very, very good bandwidth.And, but no one had built a database like that. So I was like, okay, well can't you just, you know, take all the vectors right? And plot them in the proverbial coordinate system. Get the clusters, put a file on S3 called clusters, do json, and then put another file for every cluster, you know, cluster one, do js O cluster two, do js ON you know that like it's two round trips, right?So you get the clusters, you find the closest clusters, and then you download the cluster files like the, the closest end. And you could do this in two round trips.swyx: You were nearest neighbors locally.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Yes. And then, and you would build this, this file, right? It's just like ultra simplistic, but it's not a far shot from what the first version of Turbo Buffer was.Why hasn't anyone done thatAlessio: in that moment? From a workload perspective, you're thinking this is gonna be like a read heavy thing because they're doing recommend. Like is the fact that like writes are so expensive now? Oh, with ai you're actually not writing that much.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: At that point I hadn't really thought too much about, well no actually it was always clear to me that there was gonna be a lot of rights because at Shopify, the search clusters were doing, you know, I don't know, tens or hundreds of crew QPS, right?‘cause you just have to have a human sit and type in. But we did, you know, I don't know how many updates there were per second. I'm sure it was in the millions, right into the cluster. So I always knew there was like a 10 to 100 ratio on the read write. In the read wise use case. It's, um, even, even in the read wise use case, there'd probably be a lot fewer reads than writes, right?There's just a lot of churn on the amount of stuff that was going through versus the amount of queries. Um, I wasn't thinking too much about that. I was mostly just thinking about what's the fundamentally cheapest way to build a database in the cloud today using the primitives that you have available.And this is it, right? You just, now you have one machine and you know, let's say you have a terabyte of data in S3, you paid the $200 a month for that, and then maybe five to 10% of that data and needs to be an NV ME SSDs and less than that in dram. Well. You're paying very, very little to inflate the data.swyx: By the way, when you say no one else has done that, uh, would you consider Neon, uh, to be on a similar path in terms of being sort of S3 first and, uh, separating the compute and storage?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I think what I meant with that is, uh, just build a completely new database. I don't know if we were the first, like it was very much, it was, I mean, I, I hadn't, I just looked at the napkin math and was like, this seems really obvious.So I'm sure like a hundred people came up with it at the same time. Like the light bulb and every invention ever. Right. It was just in the air. I think Neon Neon was, was first to it. And they're trying, they're retrofitted onto Postgres, right? And then they built this whole architecture where you have, you have it in memory and then you sort of.You know, m map back to S3. And I think that was very novel at the time to do it for, for all LTP, but I hadn't seen a database that was truly all in, right. Not retrofitting it. The database felt built purely for this no consensus layer. Even using compare and swap on optic storage to do consensus. I hadn't seen anyone go that all in.And I, I mean, there, there, I'm sure there was someone that did that before us. I don't know. I was just looking at the napkin mathswyx: and, and when you say consensus layer, uh, are you strongly relying on S3 Strong consistency? You are. Okay.SoSimon Hørup Eskildsen: that is your consensus layer. It, it is the consistency layer. And I think also, like, this is something that most people don't realize, but S3 only became consistent in December of 2020.swyx: I remember this coming out during COVID and like people were like, oh, like, it was like, uh, it was just like a free upgrade.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah.swyx: They were just, they just announced it. We saw consistency guys and like, okay, cool.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I'm sure that they just, they probably had it in prod for a while and they're just like, it's done right.And people were like, okay, cool. But. That's a big moment, right? Like nv, ME SSDs, were also not in the cloud until around 2017, right? So you just sort of had like 2017 nv, ME SSDs, and people were like, okay, cool. There's like one skew that does this, whatever, right? Takes a few years. And then the second thing is like S3 becomes consistent in 2020.So now it means you don't have to have this like big foundation DB or like zookeeper or whatever sitting there contending with the keys, which is how. You know, that's what Snowflake and others have do so muchswyx: for goneSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly. Just gone. Right? And so just push to the, you know, whatever, how many hundreds of people they have working on S3 solved and then compare and swap was not in S3 at this point in time,swyx: by the way.Uh, I don't know what that is, so maybe you wanna explain. Yes. Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. So, um, what Compare and swap is, is basically, you can imagine that if you have a database, it might be really nice to have a file called metadata json. And metadata JSON could say things like, Hey, these keys are here and this file means that, and there's lots of metadata that you have to operate in the database, right?But that's the simplest way to do it. So now you have might, you might have a lot of servers that wanna change the metadata. They might have written a file and want the metadata to contain that file. But you have a hundred nodes that are trying to contend with this metadata that JSON well, what compare and Swap allows you to do is basically just you download the file, you make the modifications, and then you write it only if it hasn't changed.While you did the modification and if not you retry. Right? Should just have this retry loops. Now you can imagine if you have a hundred nodes doing that, it's gonna be really slow, but it will converge over time. That primitive was not available in S3. It wasn't available in S3 until late 2024, but it was available in GCP.The real story of this is certainly not that I sat down and like bake brained it. I was like, okay, we're gonna start on GCS S3 is gonna get it later. Like it was really not that we started, we got really lucky, like we started on GCP and we started on GCP because tur um, Shopify ran on GCP. And so that was the platform I was most available with.Right. Um, and I knew the Canadian team there ‘cause I'd worked with them at Shopify and so it was natural for us to start there. And so when we started building the database, we're like, oh yeah, we have to build a, we really thought we had to build a consensus layer, like have a zookeeper or something to do this.But then we discovered the compare and swap. It's like, oh, we can kick the can. Like we'll just do metadata r json and just, it's fine. It's probably fine. Um, and we just kept kicking the can until we had very, very strong conviction in the idea. Um, and then we kind of just hinged the company on the fact that S3 probably was gonna get this, it started getting really painful in like mid 2024.‘cause we were closing deals with, um, um, notion actually that was running in AWS and we're like, trust us. You, you really want us to run this in GCP? And they're like, no, I don't know about that. Like, we're running everything in AWS and the latency across the cloud were so big and we had so much conviction that we bought like, you know, dark fiber between the AWS regions in, in Oregon, like in the InterExchange and GCP is like, we've never seen a startup like do like, what's going on here?And we're just like, no, we don't wanna do this. We were tuning like TCP windows, like everything to get the latency down ‘cause we had so high conviction in not doing like a, a metadata layer on S3. So those were the three conditions, right? Compare and swap. To do metadata, which wasn't in S3 until late 2024 S3 being consistent, which didn't happen until December, 2020.Uh, 2020. And then NVMe ssd, which didn't end in the cloud until 2017.swyx: I mean, in some ways, like a very big like cloud success story that like you were able to like, uh, put this all together, but also doing things like doing, uh, bind our favor. That that actually is something I've never heard.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean, it's very common when you're a big company, right?You're like connecting your own like data center or whatever. But it's like, it was uniquely just a pain with notion because the, um, the org, like most of the, like if you're buying in Ashburn, Virginia, right? Like US East, the Google, like the GCP and, and AWS data centers are like within a millisecond on, on each other, on the public exchanges.But in Oregon uniquely, the GCP data center sits like a couple hundred kilometers, like east of Portland and the AWS region sits in Portland, but the network exchange they go through is through Seattle. So it's like a full, like 14 milliseconds or something like that. And so anyway, yeah. It's, it's, so we were like, okay, we can't, we have to go through an exchange in Portland.Yeah. Andswyx: you'd rather do this than like run your zookeeper and likeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Way rather. It doesn't have state, I don't want state and two systems. Um, and I think all that is just informed by Justine, my co-founder and I had just been on call for so long. And the worst outages are the ones where you have state in multiple places that's not syncing up.So it really came from, from a a, like just a, a very pure source of pain, of just imagining what we would be Okay. Being woken up at 3:00 AM about and having something in zookeeper was not one of them.swyx: You, you're talking to like a notion or something. Do they care or do they just, theySimon Hørup Eskildsen: just, they care about latency.swyx: They latency cost. That's it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: They just cared about latency. Right. And we just absorbed the cost. We're just like, we have high conviction in this. At some point we can move them to AWS. Right. And so we just, we, we'll buy the fiber, it doesn't matter. Right. Um, and it's like $5,000. Usually when you buy fiber, you buy like multiple lines.And we're like, we can only afford one, but we will just test it that when it goes over the public internet, it's like super smooth. And so we did a lot of, anyway, it's, yeah, it was, that's cool.Alessio: You can imagine talking to the GCP rep and it's like, no, we're gonna buy, because we know we're gonna turn, we're gonna turn from you guys and go to AWS in like six months.But in the meantime we'll do this. It'sSimon Hørup Eskildsen: a, I mean, like they, you know, this workload still runs on GCP for what it's worth. Right? ‘cause it's so, it was just, it was so reliable. So it was never about moving off GCP, it was just about honesty. It was just about giving notion the latency that they deserved.Right. Um, and we didn't want ‘em to have to care about any of this. We also, they were like, oh, egress is gonna be bad. It was like, okay, screw it. Like we're just gonna like vvc, VPC peer with you and AWS we'll eat the cost. Yeah. Whatever needs to be done.Alessio: And what were the actual workloads? Because I think when you think about ai, it's like 14 milliseconds.It's like really doesn't really matter in the scheme of like a model generation.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. We were told the latency, right. That we had to beat. Oh, right. So, so we're just looking at the traces. Right. And then sort of like hand draw, like, you know, kind of like looking at the trace and then thinking what are the other extensions of the trace?Right. And there's a lot more to it because it's also when you have, if you have 14 versus seven milliseconds, right. You can fit in another round trip. So we had to tune TCP to try to send as much data in every round trip, prewarm all the connections. And there was, there's a lot of things that compound from having these kinds of round trips, but in the grand scheme it was just like, well, we have to beat the latency of whatever we're up against.swyx: Which is like they, I mean, notion is a database company. They could have done this themselves. They, they do lots of database engineering themselves. How do you even get in the door? Like Yeah, just like talk through that kind of.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Last time I was in San Francisco, I was talking to one of the engineers actually, who, who was one of our champions, um, at, AT Notion.And they were, they were just trying to make sure that the, you know, per user cost matched the economics that they needed. You know, Uhhuh like, it's like the way I think about, it's like I have to earn a return on whatever the clouds charge me and then my customers have to earn a return on that. And it's like very simple, right?And so there has to be gross margin all the way up and that's how you build the product. And so then our customers have to make the right set of trade off the turbo Puffer makes, and if they're happy with that, that's great.swyx: Do you feel like you're competing with build internally versus buy or buy versus buy?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so, sorry, this was all to build up to your question. So one of the notion engineers told me that they'd sat and probably on a napkin, like drawn out like, why hasn't anyone built this? And then they saw terrible. It was like, well, it literally that. So, and I think AI has also changed the buy versus build equation in terms of, it's not really about can we build it, it's about do we have time to build it?I think they like, I think they felt like, okay, if this is a team that can do that and they, they feel enough like an extension of our team, well then we can go a lot faster, which would be very, very good for them. And I mean, they put us through the, through the test, right? Like we had some very, very long nights to to, to do that POC.And they were really our biggest, our second big customer off the cursor, which also was a lot of late nights. Right.swyx: Yeah. That, I mean, should we go into that story? The, the, the sort of Chris's story, like a lot, um, they credit you a lot for. Working very closely with them. So I just wanna hear, I've heard this, uh, story from Sole's point of view, but like, I'm curious what, what it looks like from your side.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I actually haven't heard it from Sole's point of view, so maybe you can now cross reference it. The way that I remember it was that, um, the day after we launched, which was just, you know, I'd worked the whole summer on, on the first version. Justine wasn't part of it yet. ‘cause I just, I didn't tell anyone that summer that I was working on this.I was just locked in on building it because it's very easy otherwise to confuse talking about something to actually doing it. And so I was just like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna do the thing. I launched it and at this point turbo puffer is like a rust binary running on a single eight core machine in a T Marks instance.And me deploying it was like looking at the request log and then like command seeing it or like control seeing it to just like, okay, there's no request. Let's upgrade the binary. Like it was like literally the, the, the, the scrappiest thing. You could imagine it was on purpose because just like at Shopify, we did that all the time.Like, we like move, like we ran things in tux all the time to begin with. Before something had like, at least the inkling of PMF, it was like, okay, is anyone gonna hear about this? Um, and one of the cursor co-founders Arvid reached out and he just, you know, the, the cursor team are like all I-O-I-I-M-O like, um, contenders, right?So they just speak in bullet points and, and facts. It was like this amazing email exchange just of, this is how many QPS we have, this is what we're paying, this is where we're going, blah, blah, blah. And so we're just conversing in bullet points. And I tried to get a call with them a few times, but they were, so, they were like really writing the PMF bowl here, just like late 2023.And one time Swally emails me at like five. What was it like 4:00 AM Pacific time saying like, Hey, are you open for a call now? And I'm on the East coast and I, it was like 7:00 AM I was like, yeah, great, sure, whatever. Um, and we just started talking and something. Then I didn't know anything about sales.It was something that just comp compelled me. I have to go see this team. Like, there's something here. So I, I went to San Francisco and I went to their office and the way that I remember it is that Postgres was down when I showed up at the office. Did SW tell you this? No. Okay. So Postgres was down and so it's like they were distracting with that.And I was trying my best to see if I could, if I could help in any way. Like I knew a little bit about databases back to tuning, auto vacuum. It was like, I think you have to tune out a vacuum. Um, and so we, we talked about that and then, um, that evening just talked about like what would it look like, what would it look like to work with us?And I just said. Look like we're all in, like we will just do what we'll do whatever, whatever you tell us, right? They migrated everything over the next like week or two, and we reduced their cost by 95%, which I think like kind of fixed their per user economics. Um, and it solved a lot of other things. And we were just, Justine, this is also when I asked Justine to come on as my co-founder, she was the best engineer, um, that I ever worked with at Shopify.She lived two blocks away and we were just, okay, we're just gonna get this done. Um, and we did, and so we helped them migrate and we just worked like hell over the next like month or two to make sure that we were never an issue. And that was, that was the cursor story. Yeah.swyx: And, and is code a different workload than normal text?I, I don't know. Is is it just text? Is it the same thing?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so cursor's workload is basically, they, um, they will embed the entire code base, right? So they, they will like chunk it up in whatever they would, they do. They have their own embedding model, um, which they've been public about. Um, and they find that on, on, on their evals.It. There's one of their evals where it's like a 25% improvement on a very particular workload. They have a bunch of blog posts about it. Um, I think it works best on larger code basis, but they've trained their own embedding model to do this. Um, and so you'll see it if you use the cursor agent, it will do searches.And they've also been public around, um, how they've, I think they post trained their model to be very good at semantic search as well. Um, and that's, that's how they use it. And so it's very good at, like, can you find me on the code that's similar to this, or code that does this? And just in, in this queries, they also use GR to supplement it.swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, of courseswyx: it's been a big topic of discussion like, is rag dead because gr you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and I mean like, I just, we, we see lots of demand from the coding company to ethicsswyx: search in every part. Yes.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Uh, we, we, we see demand. And so, I mean, I'm. I like case studies. I don't like, like just doing like thought pieces on this is where it's going.And like trying to be all macroeconomic about ai, that's has turned out to be a giant waste of time because no one can really predict any of this. So I just collect case studies and I mean, cursor has done a great job talking about what they're doing and I hope some of the other coding labs that use Turbo Puffer will do the same.Um, but it does seem to make a difference for particular queries. Um, I mean we can also do text, we can also do RegX, but I should also say that cursors like security posture into Tur Puffer is exceptional, right? They have their own embedding model, which makes it very difficult to reverse engineer. They obfuscate the file paths.They like you. It's very difficult to learn anything about a code base by looking at it. And the other thing they do too is that for their customers, they encrypt it with their encryption keys in turbo puffer's bucket. Um, so it's, it's, it's really, really well designed.swyx: And so this is like extra stuff they did to work with you because you are not part of Cursor.Exactly like, and this is just best practice when working in any database, not just you guys. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I think for me, like the, the, the learning is kind of like you, like all workloads are hybrid. Like, you know, uh, like you, you want the semantic, you want the text, you want the RegX, you want sql.I dunno. Um, but like, it's silly to like be all in on like one particularly query pattern.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think, like I really like the way that, um, um, that swally at cursor talks about it, which is, um, I'm gonna butcher it here. Um, and you know, I'm a, I'm a database scalability person. I'm not a, I, I dunno anything about training models other than, um, what the internet tells me and what.The way he describes is that this is just like cash compute, right? It's like you have a point in time where you're looking at some particular context and focused on some chunk and you say, this is the layer of the neural net at this point in time. That seems fundamentally really useful to do cash compute like that.And, um, how the value of that will change over time. I'm, I'm not sure, but there seems to be a lot of value in that.Alessio: Maybe talk a bit about the evolution of the workload, because even like search, like maybe two years ago it was like one search at the start of like an LLM query to build the context. Now you have a gentech search, however you wanna call it, where like the model is both writing and changing the code and it's searching it again later.Yeah. What are maybe some of the new types of workloads or like changes you've had to make to your architecture for it?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think you're right. When I think of rag, I think of, Hey, there's an 8,000 token, uh, context window and you better make it count. Um, and search was a way to do that now. Everything is moving towards the, just let the agent do its thing.Right? And so back to the thing before, right? The LLM is very good at reasoning with the data, and so we're just the tool call, right? And that's increasingly what we see our customers doing. Um, what we're seeing more demand from, from our customers now is to do a lot of concurrency, right? Like Notion does a ridiculous amount of queries in every round trip just because they can't.And I'm also now, when I use the cursor agent, I also see them doing more concurrency than I've ever seen before. So a bit similar to how we designed a database to drive as much concurrency in every round trip as possible. That's also what the agents are doing. So that's new. It means just an enormous amount of queries all at once to the dataset while it's warm in as few turns as possible.swyx: Can I clarify one thing on that?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: Is it, are they batching multiple users or one user is driving multiple,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: one user driving multiple, one agent driving.swyx: It's parallel searching a bunch of things.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly.swyx: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, the clinician also did, did this for the fast context thing, like eight parallel at once.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: And, and like an interesting problem is, well, how do you make sure you have enough diversity so you're not making the the same request eight times?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I think like that's probably also where the hybrid comes in, where. That's another way to diversify. It's a completely different way to, to do the search.That's a big change, right? So before it was really just like one call and then, you know, the LLM took however many seconds to return, but now we just see an enormous amount of queries. So the, um, we just see more queries. So we've like tried to reduce query, we've reduced query pricing. Um, this is probably the first time actually I'm saying that, but the query pricing is being reduced, like five x.Um, and we'll probably try to reduce it even more to accommodate some of these workloads of just doing very large amounts of queries. Um, that's one thing that's changed. I think the right, the right ratio is still very high, right? Like there's still a, an enormous amount of rights per read, but we're starting probably to see that change if people really lean into this pattern.Alessio: Can we talk a little bit about the pricing? I'm curious, uh, because traditionally a database would charge on storage, but now you have the token generation that is so expensive, where like the actual. Value of like a good search query is like much higher because they're like saving inference time down the line.How do you structure that as like, what are people receptive to on the other side too?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I, the, the turbo puffer pricing in the beginning was just very simple. The pricing on these on for search engines before Turbo Puffer was very server full, right? It was like, here's the vm, here's the per hour cost, right?Great. And I just sat down with like a piece of paper and said like, if Turbo Puffer was like really good, this is probably what it would cost with a little bit of margin. And that was the first pricing of Turbo Puffer. And I just like sat down and I was like, okay, like this is like probably the storage amp, but whenever on a piece of paper I, it was vibe pricing.It was very vibe price, and I got it wrong. Oh. Um, well I didn't get it wrong, but like Turbo Puffer wasn't at the first principle pricing, right? So when Cursor came on Turbo Puffer, it was like. Like, I didn't know any VCs. I didn't know, like I was just like, I don't know, I didn't know anything about raising money or anything like that.I just saw that my GCP bill was, was high, was a lot higher than the cursor bill. So Justine and I was just like, well, we have to optimize it. Um, and I mean, to the chagrin now of, of it, of, of the VCs, it now means that we're profitable because we've had so much pricing pressure in the beginning. Because it was running on my credit card and Justine and I had spent like, like tens of thousands of dollars on like compute bills and like spinning off the company and like very like, like bad Canadian lawyers and like things like to like get all of this done because we just like, we didn't know.Right. If you're like steeped in San Francisco, you're just like, you just know. Okay. Like you go out, raise a pre-seed round. I, I never heard a word pre-seed at this point in time.swyx: When you had Cursor, you had Notion you, you had no funding.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, with Cursor we had no funding. Yeah. Um, by the time we had Notion Locke was, Locke was here.Yeah. So it was really just, we vibe priced it 100% from first Principles, but it wasn't, it, it was not performing at first principles, so we just did everything we could to optimize it in the beginning for that, so that at least we could have like a 5% margin or something. So I wasn't freaking out because Cursor's bill was also going like this as they were growing.And so my liability and my credit limit was like actively like calling my bank. It was like, I need a bigger credit. Like it was, yeah. Anyway, that was the beginning. Yeah. But the pricing was, yeah, like storage rights and query. Right. And the, the pricing we have today is basically just that pricing with duct tape and spit to try to approach like, you know, like a, as a margin on the physical underlying hardware.And we're doing this year, you're gonna see more and more pricing changes from us. Yeah.swyx: And like is how much does stuff like VVC peering matter because you're working in AWS land where egress is charged and all that, you know.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: We probably don't like, we have like an enterprise plan that just has like a base fee because we haven't had time to figure out SKU pricing for all of this.Um, but I mean, yeah, you can run turbo puffer either in SaaS, right? That's what Cursor does. You can run it in a single tenant cluster. So it's just you. That's what Notion does. And then you can run it in, in, in BYOC where everything is inside the customer's VPC, that's what an for example, philanthropic does.swyx: What I'm hearing is that this is probably the best CRO job for somebody who can come in and,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean,swyx: help you with this.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, like Turbo Puffer hired, like, I don't know what, what number this was, but we had a full-time CFO as like the 12th hire or something at Turbo Puffer, um, I think I hear are a lot of comp.I don't know how they do it. Like they have a hundred employees and not a CFO. It's like having a CFO is like a runningswyx: business man. Like, you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: it's so good. Yeah, like money Mike, like he just, you know, just handles the money and a lot of the business stuff and so he came in and just hopped with a lot of the operational side of the business.So like C-O-O-C-F-O, like somewhere in between.swyx: Just as quick mention of Lucky, just ‘cause I'm curious, I've met Lock and like, he's obviously a very good investor and now on physical intelligence, um, I call it generalist super angel, right? He invests in everything. Um, and I always wonder like, you know, is there something appealing about focusing on developer tooling, focusing on databases, going like, I've invested for 10 years in databases versus being like a lock where he can maybe like connect you to all the customers that you need.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: This is an excellent question. No, no one's asked me this. Um, why lockey? Because. There was a couple of people that we were talking to at the time and when we were raising, we were almost a little, we were like a bit distressed because one of our, one of our peers had just launched something that was very similar to Turbo Puffer.And someone just gave me the advice at the time of just choose the person where you just feel like you can just pick up the phone and not prepare anything. And just be completely honest, and I don't think I've said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like local Lockie. Like if this doesn't have PMF by the end of the year, like we'll just like return all the money to you.But it's just like, I don't really, we, Justine and I don't wanna work on this unless it's really working. So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we're really gonna go for it. We're gonna hire a bunch of people and we're just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don't know how to play a game, I just play with open cards and.Lockey was the only person that didn't, that didn't freak out. He was like, I've never heard anyone say that before. As I said, I didn't even know what a seed or pre-seed round was like before, probably even at this time. So I was just like very honest with him. And I asked him like, Lockie, have you ever have, have you ever invested in database company?He was just like, no. And at the time I was like, am I dumb? Like, but I think there was something that just like really drew me to Lockie. He is so authentic, so honest, like, and there was something just like, I just felt like I could just play like, just say everything openly. And that was, that was, I think that that was like a perfect match at the time, and, and, and honestly still is.He was just like, okay, that's great. This is like the most honest, ridiculous thing I've ever heard anyone say to me. But like that, like that, whyswyx: is this ridiculous? Say competitor launch, this may not work out. It wasSimon Hørup Eskildsen: more just like. If this doesn't work out, I'm gonna close up shop by the end of the mo the year, right?Like it was, I don't know, maybe it's common. I, I don't know. He told me it was uncommon. I don't know. Um, that's why we chose him and he'd been phenomenal. The other people were talking at the, at the time were database experts. Like they, you know, knew a lot about databases and Locke didn't, this turned out to be a phenomenal asset.Right. I like Justine and I know a lot about databases. The people that we hire know a lot about databases. What we needed was just someone who didn't know a lot about databases, didn't pretend to know a lot about databases, and just wanted to help us with candidates and customers. And he did. Yeah. And I have a list, right, of the investors that I have a relationship with, and Lockey has just performed excellent in the number of sub bullets of what we can attribute back to him.Just absolutely incredible. And when people talk about like no ego and just the best thing for the founder, I like, I don't think that anyone, like even my lawyer is like, yeah, Lockey is like the most friendly person you will find.swyx: Okay. This is my most glow recommendation I've ever heard.Alessio: He deserves it.He's very special.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amazing.Alessio: Since you mentioned candidates, maybe we can talk about team building, you know, like, especially in sf, it feels like it's just easier to start a company than to join a company. Uh, I'm curious your experience, especially not being n SF full-time and doing something that is maybe, you know, a very low level of detail and technical detail.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. So joining versus starting, I never thought that I would be a founder. I would start with it, like Turbo Puffer started as a blog post, and then it became a project and then sort of almost accidentally became a company. And now it feels like it's, it's like becoming a bigger company. That was never the intention.The intentions were very pure. It's just like, why hasn't anyone done this? And it's like, I wanna be the, like, I wanna be the first person to do it. I think some founders have this, like, I could never work for anyone else. I, I really don't feel that way. Like, it's just like, I wanna see this happen. And I wanna see it happen with some people that I really enjoy working with and I wanna have fun doing it and this, this, this has all felt very natural on that, on that sense.So it was never a like join versus versus versus found. It was just dis found me at the right moment.Alessio: Well I think there's an argument for, you should have joined Cursor, right? So I'm curious like how you evaluate it. Okay, I should actually go raise money and make this a company versus like, this is like a company that is like growing like crazy.It's like an interesting technical problem. I should just build it within Cursor and then they don't have to encrypt all this stuff. They don't have to obfuscate things. Like was that on your mind at all orSimon Hørup Eskildsen: before taking the, the small check from Lockie, I did have like a hard like look at myself in the mirror of like, okay, do I really want to do this?And because if I take the money, I really have to do it right. And so the way I almost think about it's like you kind of need to ha like you kind of need to be like fucked up enough to want to go all the way. And that was the conversation where I was like, okay, this is gonna be part of my life's journey to build this company and do it in the best way that I possibly can't.Because if I ask people to join me, ask people to get on the cap table, then I have an ultimate responsibility to give it everything. And I don't, I think some people, it doesn't occur to me that everyone takes it that seriously. And maybe I take it too seriously, I don't know. But that was like a very intentional moment.And so then it was very clear like, okay, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna give it everything.Alessio: A lot of people don't take it this seriously. But,swyx: uh, let's talk about, you have this concept of the P 99 engineer. Uh, people are 10 x saying, everyone's saying, you know, uh, maybe engineers are out of a job. I don't know.But you definitely see a P 99 engineer, and I just want you to talk about it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so the P 99 engineer was just a term that we started using internally to talk about candidates and talk about how we wanted to build the company. And you know, like everyone else is, like we want a talent dense company.And I think that's almost become trite at this point. What I credit the cursor founders a lot with is that they just arrived there from first principles of like, we just need a talent dense, um, talent dense team. And I think I've seen some teams that weren't talent dense and like seemed a counterfactual run, which if you've run in been in a large company, you will just see that like it's just logically will happen at a large company.Um, and so that was super important to me and Justine and it's very difficult to maintain. And so we just needed, we needed wording for it. And so I have a document called Traits of the P 99 Engineer, and it's a bullet point list. And I look at that list after every single interview that I do, and in every single recap that we do and every recap we end with.End with, um, some version of I'm gonna reject this candidate completely regardless of what the discourse was, because I wanna see people fight for this person because the default should not be, we're gonna hire this person. The default should be, we're definitely not hiring this person. And you know, if everyone was like, ah, maybe throw a punch, then this is not the right.swyx: Do, do you operate, like if there's one cha there must have at least one champion who's like, yes, I will put my career on, on, on the line for this. You know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think career on the line,swyx: maybe a chair, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: yeah. You know, like, um, I would say so someone needs to like, have both fists up and be like, I'd fight.Right? Yeah. Yeah. And if one person said, then, okay, let's do it. Right?swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um. It doesn't have to be absolutely everyone. Right? And like the interviews are always the sign that you're checking for different attributes. And if someone is like knocking it outta the park in every single attribute, that's, that's fairly rare.Um, but that's really important. And so the traits of the P 99 engineer, there's lots of them. There's also the traits of the p like triple nine engineer and the quadruple nine engineer. This is like, it's a long list.swyx: Okay.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I'll give you some samples, right. Of what we, what we look for. I think that the P 99 engineer has some history of having bent, like their trajectory or something to their will.Right? Some moment where it was just, they just, you know, made the computer do what it needed to do. There's something like that, and it will, it will occur to have them at some point in their career. And, uh. Hopefully multiple times. Right.swyx: Gimme an example of one of your engineers that like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I'll give an eng.Uh, so we, we, we launched this thing called A and NV three. Um, we could, we're also, we're working on V four and V five right now, but a and NV three can search a hundred billion vectors with a P 50 of around 40 milliseconds and a p 99 of 200 milliseconds. Um, maybe other people have done this, I'm sure Google and others have done this, but, uh, we haven't seen anyone, um, at least not in like a public consumable SaaS that can do this.And that was an engineer, the chief architect of Turbo Puffer, Nathan, um, who more or less just bent this, the software was not capable of this and he just made it capable for a very particular workload in like a, you know, six to eight week period with the help of a lot of the team. Right. It's been, been, there's numerous of examples of that, like at, at turbo puff, but that's like really bending the software and X 86 to your will.It was incredible to watch. Um. You wanna see some moments like that?swyx: Isn't that triple nine?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I think Nathan, what's calledAlessio: group nine, that was only nine. I feel like this is too high forSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Nathan. Nathan is, uh, Nathan is like, yeah, there's a lot of nines. Okay. After that p So I think that's one trait. I think another trait is that, uh, the P 99 spends a lot of time looking at maps.Generally it's their preferred ux. They just love looking at maps. You ever seen someone who just like, sits on their phone and just like, scrolls around on a map? Or did you not look at maps A lot? You guys don't look atswyx: maps? I guess I'm not feeling there. I don't know, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: you just dis What about trains?Do you like trains?swyx: Uh, I mean they, not enough. Okay. This is just like weapon nice. Autism is what I call it. Like, like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: um, I love looking at maps, like, it's like my preferred UX and just like I, you know, I likeswyx: lotsAlessio: of, of like random places, soswyx: like,youswyx: know.Alessio: Yes. Okay. There you go. So instead of like random places, like how do you explore the maps?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: No, it's, it's just a joke.swyx: It's autism laugh. It's like you are just obsessed by something and you like studying a thing.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The origin of this was that at some point I read an interview with some IOI gold medalistswyx: Uhhuh,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and it's like, what do you do in your spare time? I was just like, I like looking at maps.I was like, I feel so seen. Like, I just like love, like swirling out. I was like, oh, Canada is so big. Where's Baffin Island? I don't know. I love it. Yeah. Um, anyway, so the traits of P 99, P 99 is obsessive, right? Like, there's just like, you'll, you'll find traits of that we do an interview at, at, at, at turbo puffer or like multiple interviews that just try to screen for some of these things.Um, so. There's lots of others, but these are the kinds of traits that we look for.swyx: I'll tell you, uh, some people listen for like some of my dere stuff. Uh, I do think about derel as maps. Um, you draw a map for people, uh, maps show you the, uh, what is commonly agreed to be the geographical features of what a boundary is.And it shows also shows you what is not doing. And I, I think a lot of like developer tools, companies try to tell you they can do everything, but like, let's, let's be real. Like you, your, your three landmarks are here, everyone comes here, then here, then here, and you draw a map and, and then you draw a journey through the map.And like that. To me, that's what developer relations looks like. So I do think about things that way.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think the P 99 thinks in offs, right? The P 99 is very clear about, you know, hey, turbo puffer, you can't run a high transaction workload on turbo puffer, right? It's like the right latency is a hundred milliseconds.That's a clear trade off. I think the P 99 is very good at articulating the trade offs in every decision. Um. Which is exactly what the map is in your case, right?swyx: Uh, yeah, yeah. My, my, my world. My world.Alessio: How, how do you reconcile some of these things when you're saying you bend the will the computer versus like the trade

In January 2024, co-founder of Thornbridge Brewery, Simon Webster received an email from Garrett Oliver. He'd heard a rumour that Carlsberg Britvic, the now owners of Marston's Brewery in Burton-upon-Trent, were “laying the union to rest.” The Brooklyn brewmaster continued to ask Simon if he'd be interested in taking a set, in turn saving it from being permanently erased from British brewing history. Six months later, after Simon and Thornbridge's brewing director Rob Lovatt had visited Burton to assess the situation, a single Union set was delivered to their brewery in Bakewell, Derbyshire. In the months since, it has become a focal point for their brewery, and something that has stirred plenty of excitement in the process. This has no doubt been assisted by the fact it's been used to produce some exciting collaborations, including with the likes of The Kernel and Odell Brewing. They've even produced a Strong Dark Mild with Garrett himself, a beer that would go on to become award-winning. In October 2025, host Matthew Curtis was invited to spend two days at Thornbridge and document a collaboration on the union system with Theakston Brewery of Masham, North Yorkshire. As the brewers set about making a version of the Yorkshire brewery's famous Masham Ale, Matthew set about filming, interviewing and documenting as much as he possibly could. The idea was to get to the heart of why the arrival of the Burton union at Thornbridge felt so significant. In this documentary-style episode of the Pellicle Podcast, you'll hear from several people at Thornbridge, including Simon Webster, Rob Lovatt, brewing manager Dominic Driscoll, and several others, plus Theakston's head brewer, Mark Slater. With plenty of analysis throughout, plus an original soundtrack composed by the host himself, this is the story of how Thornbridge saved the Burton Union. We're able to produce The Pellicle Podcast thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsor Get ‘Er Brewed. If you're enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

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Bitcoin Core doesn't stand still even if consensus rules don't change. In this episode, Stéphan (Core Developer at Brink) explains how the Kernel and multiprocess projects are reshaping Bitcoin Core for long-term reliability. From modular validation logic to safer development workflows, this conversation shows why maintenance work matters. Hosted by Shinobi of Bitcoin Magazine.#BitcoinCore #BitcoinDevelopment #BitcoinKernel ⭐️⚔: SIGN UP WITH DUELBITS TODAY FOR A CHANCE TO WIN UP TO 2 BTC:

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In our latest Open Source Startup Podcast episode, co-hosts Robby and Tim talk with Catherine Jue, Co-Founder and CEO of browser infrastructure company Kernel. Their open source images acts as a browsers-as-a-service for automations and web agents.In this episode, we break down what Kernel is building today and why browser infrastructure has quietly become one of the most important layers for AI agents. We talk about Kernel's focus on fast, low-latency cloud browsers, why performance matters more than people expect, and how developers can connect agents via APIs or MCP servers without spinning up heavy infrastructure themselves.We also explore the real-world use cases driving adoption - from a new wave of RPA for industries without APIs, to real-time web analysis, sales intelligence, and voice agents that need to respond instantly. Finally, we dig into Kernel's open-source, developer-first DNA, the technical bets behind its control plane and unikernel-based browsers, and why the team believes agentic workflows are still early, but inevitable.

Bryan Johnson is the founder of Braintree, Kernel, a futurist, biohacker and an author. Is it possible for humans to never die? In recent years, Bryan Johnson has drawn global attention for the extreme experiments he's running on his own body in pursuit of radical longevity. So what does the latest science actually say about his quest to live forever, and how close are we really to immortality? Expect to learn why it is our human obligation to fight against death, the most life-changing pivots Bryan made that helped him the most, how to get perfect sleep, what it takes to build an anti-fragile routine, the most important treatments that help increase your changes of living longer, how to improve your vascular health, how Bryan deals with complex emotions life grief, Bryan's strange prediction on how he might die and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT's most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get up to $350 off the Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode 157: In this episode of Critical Thinking - Bug Bounty Podcast we're joined by Hypr to talk about hacking Mediatek and his experiences with HackerOne and Pwn2Own Ecosystems.Follow us on twitter at: https://x.com/ctbbpodcastGot any ideas and suggestions? Feel free to send us any feedback here: info@criticalthinkingpodcast.ioShoutout to YTCracker for the awesome intro music!====== Links ======Follow your hosts Rhynorater, rez0 and gr3pme on X: https://x.com/Rhynoraterhttps://x.com/rez0__https://x.com/gr3pmeCritical Research Lab:https://lab.ctbb.show/ ====== Ways to Support CTBBPodcast ======Hop on the CTBB Discord at https://ctbb.show/discord!We also do Discord subs at $25, $10, and $5 - premium subscribers get access to private masterclasses, exploits, tools, scripts, un-redacted bug reports, etc.You can also find some hacker swag at https://ctbb.show/merch!Today's Guest: https://x.com/hyprdude====== This Week in Bug Bounty ======Top 10 web hacking techniques of 2025: call for nominationshttps://portswigger.net/research/top-10-web-hacking-techniques-of-2025-nominations-openCVE-2025-13467https://access.redhat.com/security/cve/cve-2025-13467====== Resources ======Hypr's Bloghttps://blog.coffinsec.commediatek? more like media-rekt, amirite.https://blog.coffinsec.com/0days/2025/12/15/more-like-mediarekt-amirite.htmlkernel-utilshttps://github.com/mellow-hype/kernel-utils====== Timestamps ======(00:00:00) Introduction(00:03:23) Heap Overflow in Mediatek Kernel Drivers(00:19:23) Kernel Debugging & ioctl Handlers (00:43:30) Input Structs, Sync to Source, & Privilege Escalation (00:51:30) HackerOne Ecosystem vs Pwn2Own Ecosystem (01:17:00) Kernel Utils(01:26:46) Real World Bugs for Exploit Development vs CTFs

This episode covers: • FDA Loosens Supplement Warning Labels The FDA is considering a rule change that would allow supplement companies to include the DSHEA disclaimer only once per package rather than next to every claim. Dave explains why fewer visible warnings could make marketing look more like medical claims, and why biohackers should treat labels as advertising rather than evidence. He shares how to protect yourself now: add one variable at a time, run baseline labs, and rely on data instead of packaging. Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-supplements-warning-label-rule-change-rfk-jr-rcna249321 • Quantum Sensors for Early Heart Attack Detection Mayo Clinic is testing a contactless heart-monitoring system called CardiAQ using quantum magnetic sensors and AI noise filtering. The device reads subtle electromagnetic signatures from the heart and compares them to invasive angiography. Dave breaks down why earlier detection of ischemia could shift heart care from reactive treatment to proactive screening — and why building baseline metrics like VO₂max, blood pressure and HRV today will pay off when next-gen diagnostics arrive. Source: https://www.sandboxaq.com/press/sandboxaq-collaborates-with-mayo-clinic-on-novel-cardiac-diagnostics • Sauna Detox for MicroplasticsEmerging research shows that sweating meaningfully removes plastic-related chemicals like BPA and phthalate metabolites from the body, often more efficiently than blood or urine alone. Sauna use amplifies this effect by increasing circulation, mobilizing stored toxins from tissues, and accelerating sweat-based excretion. When you combine regular heat exposure with reduced environmental plastic contact, you create a powerful detox strategy that targets a chemical burden once thought unavoidable. Dave breaks down how sauna protocols can support toxin elimination, improve cardiovascular resilience, strengthen autonomic balance, and help counteract the metabolic and hormonal disruptions linked to microplastics in modern life.Source: https://superage.com/can-you-sweat-out-microplastics-in-the-sauna/ • Psychedelics and Longevity Biomarkers Bryan Johnson treated a guided psilocybin experience as a structured longevity experiment, collecting nearly 250 biomarkers including CGM, stress markers, HRV and Kernel brain imaging. The experiment revealed a surprising metabolic change: mean glucose dropped 8 percent, variability fell 11 percent, and estimated HbA1c moved from 4.7 to 4.4 — similar to months of metformin but after a single session. Dave explores the emerging idea that neuroplastic events might influence glucose regulation through brain-pancreas signaling, while emphasizing the need for supervised, legal use and proper clinical trials. Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/bryan-johnson-trip-on-mushrooms-five-hours-live-2025-12 • A Mitochondrial Protein that Extends Mouse Lifespan Researchers boosted the mitochondrial protein COX7RP and extended mouse lifespan by ~6.6 percent while improving insulin sensitivity, lipid handling, endurance and liver fat metabolism. COX7RP supports formation of mitochondrial “supercomplexes,” improving respiratory efficiency and ATP generation. Dave explains how this reinforces lifestyle levers — strength training, aerobic capacity, stabilizing blood sugar — as tools that likely preserve supercomplex architecture and mitochondrial resilience. Source: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1109082 All source links provided for direct access to the original research and reporting. This episode is designed for biohackers, longevity seekers and high-performance listeners who want practical strategies rooted in cutting-edge science. Dave Asprey translates emerging research into actionable upgrades for your biology — from metabolism and mitochondria to nervous system health, detox, and prevention. New episodes every Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday. Keywords: FDA supplement rule change, supplement warning labels, DSHEA disclaimer removal, supplement regulation risks, quantum cardiac scanner, Mayo Clinic heart attack detection, AI heart monitoring, early ischemia detection technology, sauna detox evidence, sweating out toxins research, BPA phthalate sweat studies, microplastics sauna myth, Bryan Johnson psilocybin experiment, psychedelic longevity research, psychedelic metabolic reset, glucose control psychedelics, HbA1c psilocybin results, continuous glucose monitor insights, mitochondria lifespan research, COX7RP protein aging study, mitochondrial supercomplex benefits, ATP energy output aging, metabolic flexibility longevity, biohacking news update, anti-aging science breakthroughs, evidence-based longevity tools, biological age biomarkers Thank you to our sponsors! -BEYOND Conference 2026 | Register now at https://beyondconference.com/ -BodyGuardz | Visit https://www.bodyguardz.com/ and use code DAVE for 25% off. Resources: • Subscribe to my weekly newsletter: https://substack.daveasprey.com/welcome • Danger Coffee: https://dangercoffee.com/discount/dave15 • My Daily Supplements: SuppGrade Labs (15% Off) • Favorite Blue Light Blocking Glasses: TrueDark (15% Off) • Dave Asprey's BEYOND Conference: https://beyondconference.com • Dave Asprey's New Book – Heavily Meditated: https://daveasprey.com/heavily-meditated • Upgrade Collective: https://www.ourupgradecollective.com • Upgrade Labs: https://upgradelabs.com • 40 Years of Zen: https://40yearsofzen.com Timestamps: 0:00 - Intro 0:18 - Story 1: FDA Supplement Label Changes 1:43 - Story 2: CardiAQ Heart Scanner 2:59 - Story 3: Saunas and Microplastics 4:58 - Story 4: Psychedelics and Blood Sugar 8:22 - Story 5: Mitochondrial Longevity Research 10:29 - Weekly Wrap-Up See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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