Podcasts about jeff do

TalkLP Host Amber Bradley introduces a new series, Team Talk – Leadership Styles Uncovered in this episode of the TalkLPNews Podcast. She sits down with Jeff Mieseler, Director of Global Security, and Sarkis Grigorian, Senior Manager, Global Retail Security/Profit Protection and E-Commerce Fraud from Topgolf Callaway Brands to dig deep into the interplay of relationships within their department. Jeff discusses the three key steps to his leadership style, as well as his communication strategy when leading so many different skill sets within the program. While Sarkis talks about “No Egos,” managing up and the mantra of his communication with Jeff, “You never want the boss to be surprised.” Amber gets them both in the HOT SEAT as they reveal their Secrets (to leadership success). Hint: WWJD? What would Jeff Do? Listen today! Connect with Jeff here and Sarkis here.

Jeff Woods has one of the most decorated careers in Canadian Radio history. Now, Jeff hosts two very great podcasts. One called "Records and Rockstars" and One called "The Blue Hotel." Both are informative in very different ways. One takes you through the history of Rock "N" Roll and all points in between and the other deals with the world of sex and all situations involved with it! Today, we dive into Jeff's journey and what he's currently up to with both shows and more! Plus, as a bonus, stick around after the episode for two very cool episodes from Jeff's catalog that I think you will greatly enjoy! What does Jeff "Do?" How "Did" he do it? What "Will" he do next? For a link to all things Jeff: https://www.jeffwoodsradio.com/ For a link to Purchase Jeff's Book: https://www.audible.ca/pd/Radio-Records-Rockstars-Audiobook/B07JGF7PS7?qid=1540409512&sr=sr_1_1&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=65c74350-6dfb-47fa-85fd-1459a4762abd&pf_rd_r=1HFD4QWFD3Z0MWV8SZSM& Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are the Penguins looking through the wrong end of the telescope? Are they comatose waiting for this thing to grow? Who knows? What Jordan and Jeff DO know is that Lucius put on an absolutely KILLER show at Mr. Smalls theater in Millvale, PA. They hop on a quick voice memo recording to discuss it all - from Jeff's sit-in on “Dusty Trails,” to his …unique whistling abilities. Nathan Linegar, Lucius's tour manager on this run, joins your co-hosts for this impromptu episode - even though he's pretty sure they're messing with him.Thank you for listening!! Follow us on Twitter @penspod, on Instagram at @flypenguinsflyEnjoy tonight's Penguins away game versus the Red Wings … AND of COURSE:LETS GO PENS!!JEFF TAYLOR + JORDAN DEFIGIO

Patrick answers listener questions about the role of Godparents, taking the bible literally, how can saints pray for us since they are dead, and if someone needs to denounce their previous faith before converting to Cath Does someone need to denounce their previous faith before becoming Catholic? Jeff - Do you have Book recommendations for formatting the stories of the Gospels in chronological order, and a Prayer Book on God's Divine Perfections that I can pray? Kimberly - Why are there Godparents and what is there role and when did the Church start having them and who can be one? Kristy - If Catholics take the bible literally, why did we stop taking the cup during COVID when Jesus told us to drink His blood? Al (24:54) - If saints are dead how can they pray for us? Elon Musk Completes $44 Billion Deal to Own Twitter Hobby Lobby founder David Green says he is giving away his company because he 'chose God' Patrick - Regarding the vaccine and embryonic stem cells: If we fail to object to embryonic stem cells and we take the vaccine, are we committing a sin?

Gwen – My son died and your words earlier really helped me Betty – Silence during adoration: what level of respect is appropriate? Katie – Do angels learn about humans as we grow? Do they love? Jeff – Do a giant toy drive for Salvation Army and disappointed in these latest revelations about the company? […]

SHARING THE LOVE + behind the scenes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1RYeOnjt58&t=114s 2:57 Randall and Jeff met 3:13 Randall to Jeff: "Do you have any other dealers making a musical???" 3:58 budget was $20,000. it's amazing that 3000 work hours later, 30 people that were unemployed during the pandemic, and 100 days from idea to when it hit the screen. We have a musical. 5:13 James Olmstead a director on Broadway, everyone doing the backup singing sings on Broadway, all the instrument players work on Broadway. Our book writer Henri Schein has written for Broadway. So this was a very high level of work. And our director, Steven Brownback has worked on Broadway 7:57 Jeff on musicals: If they can say it. Why do they have to sing it? 10:00 after the show, there's a 15 minute behind the scenes package that wouldn't have happened if not for Cox Cable 14:00 Randall "if I want a car, where am I going to buy that car is the question." 21:58 Randall's dealership greeting: "If we could make it the most fantastic day ever, what would that look like?" 27:17 VIP (Vehicle In Production) program 29:23 Jeff on car shortages 32:34 Randall vs. Mt. Everest 34:54 "The ledge" 42:05 dead last. 44:28 Randall: it was a trip that brought out who I really was possibly since birth, but it reconfigured the way I thought about my entire life up to that time.

TABLE OF CONTENT TALKING POINTS Episode (46)6-20-2021(Host Scene)Zazz - Welcome to Table of Content. A show by streamers for streamers and the wonderful people who support them. I am Zazzaboo your host and the Editor in Chief of TableOC.com. ~Welcome StumpHate:This first segment is brought to you by Kaylas Cupcake Design.Our good friend Jazz0ejo makes dope 3d wall art. She takes any word you would like and transforms it into your favorite brand. Fortnite to call of duty, or game of thrones to my little pony she can make any word show off your flair. Check her link out at the top of tableoc.comGuests -  Welcome back to the show both now second timers FatLincolnJeff and BeardculesPrime.Streaming NewsChipotle becomes the exclusive limited-service restaurant partner for livestream gaming platform TwitchAt Chipotle everyone knows guac is extra and now we know why. They have entered into a corporate partnership with Twitch.From The Nations Restaurant News.Chipotle Mexican Grill and livestream gaming platform Twitch have entered a partnership naming Chipotle the exclusive limited-service restaurant of /twitchgaming, a new channel on the platform, the brands announced last week.This is the first partnership of its kind for the social media platform. The fast-casual chain will be the official marketing partner for the channel, which is being described as a place for gamers by gamers on the platform.The channel will have sessions about the future of gaming, news related to gaming, celebrity participants and more. Throughout the summer, Twitch will host multiple events to boost the channel's reach, and some of those will be in partnership with Chipotle.As a part of the sponsorship, Chipotle will host a new game. “Chipotle Build Your Own PC,” inspired by Chipotle's burrito bar format, will have players will build their own PCs with streaming “extras” (e.g. lighting panels and soundproofing equipment), and donate the PCs to a non-profit organization.Chipotle is also launching a branded feature where hosts and guests provide their unfiltered opinions on the gaming topic at hand.Jeff: Do these sort of corporate partnerships mean main stream adoption or will they ultimately bring Twitch down?Twitch Bans Amouranth, Indiefoxx, and More Over Controversial "ASMR Meta"Twitch has banned Amouranth, Indiefoxx, ExoHydraX, and more over recent ASMR streams. At the moment of publishing, Twitch has not confirmed this is the reason behind the ban spree, but given who the targets are and that all of the bannings came at once, suggests it's for said streamer's participation in the new "ASMR TikTok Leggings Yoga Meta," more often referred to as the "ASMR Meta."Much like the Hot Tub streams before, this new meta exploded out of nowhere, with many of the same streamers involved. As you may remember, both Amouranth and IndieFoxx were at the origins of the Hot Tub meta, and they were once again at the center of the new ASMR Meta as well. And for their troubles, they've banned by the platform, though it's unclear if the bans are temporary or permanent.At the moment of publishing, Twitch has not addressed the controversial new meta in any capacity beyond these bannings. As you may remember, it was very slow to address the equally controversial Hot Tub meta, so this may not change anytime soon, and it may not change at all if these bannings kill off the meta, which has yet to take off on the same level as the hot tub meta.That said, the bannings come after many in the Twitch community -- including several of the platform's top streamers -- began to criticize the trend and Twitch for its lack of response.Beard: Was Twitch right to ban these streamers over the new ASMR Meta?Adin Ross warns Twitch fans not to buy 'trash' crypto coin he hyped up in paid streamPopular Twitch streamer Adin Ross has admitted to promoting a ‘trash' cryptocurrency to his audience, laughing about the deal weeks later while hoping “no one actually bought it.”Various cryptocurrencies and token exchange platforms have become increasingly prominent sponsors across social media in 2021.Ross was just one of many streamers engaged with a recent crypto push on Twitch. However, just weeks later, the popular figure has now laughed off one such deal, and admitted he hoped “none of his fans actually bought in.”During a sponsored Twitch stream in May, Ross was actively pushing a newly created ‘MILF Token.' Throughout the broadcast, he was converting hundreds of dollars into the cryptocurrency and pushing it in front of thousands of viewers watching him live.Ross also promoted the Token in a now-deleted tweet.At the time Ross was paid for the sponsored stream, MILF Token was valued at upwards of $0.001 on CoinMarketCap. Today the cryptocurrency now sits at a price of $0.00006, marking a decline of roughly 180% in just a few weeks.Reflecting on his paid engagement with the crypto brand, Ross laughed about the situation in a June 18 broadcast. “Chat, by the way, that MILF Token sh** I did a while back… I already told you guys, don't buy that sh**.”Stump: This isnt financial advice but I think its safe to say if you see celebrities or personalities taking money to promote shitcoins its probably a good idea to avoid them.Tech/Gaming News -  Brought to you by The Guy from the sneak commercial OFFICIALLY ROGUECyberpunk 2077's Latest Patch Continues to Try and Make the Game Run Better on ConsoleSecondly from IGN, the game the internet loves to hate.Cyberpunk 2077 has just released its latest patch, 1.23 for PC, consoles and Stadia. Among the usual mix of fixes, it makes clear that CD Projekt Red is continuing to work on making the game perform better on consoles.Announced on the Cyberpunk 2077 website, patch 1.23 includes "various console CPU optimizations." While detail's lacking, CPU optimizations could help everything from frame rate to calculations made to improve the game's simulation. Whatever those changes, it's clear that the developers are continuing to work on the game's general performance on last-gen consoles, or in backwards compatibility on new-gen consoles.That's particularly important in light of the game's return to the PlayStation Store on June 21. Six months after being removed from the service, Sony clearly now sees the game as stable enough for sale on its store – but still made a point of telling users with original PS4 units that they will "continue to experience performance issues with the PS4 edition while CD Projekt Red continues to improve stability across all platforms." Hopefully, patches like this will go some way towards remedying that problem.Jeff: Are you jumping in or do you think we should wait for CDPR to show proof this is working?E3 highlights new titles and efforts to diversify gaming industryE3 2021 had plenty of new game announcements, including the long-awaited Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 2. Nintendo released a new trailer for its upcoming sequel that's as bold and creative as Zelda has ever been.The trailer teased a lot of the aerial action for which Zelda is known, and even new Sheikah Slate abilities (including flamethrowing) that would make even Elon Musk blush.There are also possibilities for multiple villains, including Bokoblins and Ganondorf; the game is set to debut sometime in 2022.Marvel has a few new releases popping soon, including a new game that features the quirkiest group of rebels in the universe — the Guardians of the Galaxy. But it's going to take a little more than the reputation of the crew and a Marvel licence to make this game sell.The game came under fire because although the game maker (Square Enix) has the rights to the characters themselves, it did not secure the rights to the actors portraying the characters. The game's otherwise solid graphics, coupled with some zany shooting action and witty banter between the characters, makes for a decent game.Marvel fans might also want to try War for Wakanda, a game featuring everyone's favourite motley group of superheroes: the Avengers. Players can feel the weight of Thor's hammer as they help the king of Wakanda keep the country's vibranium stash away from the likes of Klaw. According to the trailer, the release is slated for August.Nintendo also made some announcements concerning its favourite plumber: Mario. The company has a few new games out including WarioWare and Mario Party Superstars. Mario Party signals the return of dozens of classic mini games and boards from past Mario Party games. In this one, players can play locally or online, including with strangers. It is due to be released on October 29.Players can visit another part of the galaxy, as they step into the world of Avatar. Ubisoft provided a look at the lush jungles of Pandora featured in Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora.Beard: There was a ton to get excited about at E3 which of all the games do you think will be the big breakout?FootNotes-  Other Notable News Carrie Fischer is getting a Hollywood walk of fame star. Her daughter Actress Billy Lourd is set to give the induction speech. Other notable names getting a star this year include: Francis Ford Coppola, Macaulay Culkin, Willem Dafoe, Salma Hayek, Michael B. Jordan, Regina King, Ray Liotta, Ewan McGregor among many others. Xbox Cloud Gaming is on its way to Xbox One, Microsoft announced this week. If you are like me and many others buying the hottest new console isn't always in the budget. Cloud gaming will change all. Personally I am excited that Microsoft is changing this industry. Spotify has acquired Podz, a startup whose technology generates preview clips of podcasts, the streaming service has announced. Unlike other services podcasters can use to manually create clips, Podz apparently automates the process of finding key moments from episodes using machine learning. I can only imagine what it will think of this show. Leaks on Epic game store seemed to show that we may be getting a FF7 remake version for PC. Game Files codenamed Pineapple were found in the back end of the store but they made a small mistake. The folder contained the name ff7 remake. Obviously its unconfirmed but should generate considerable hype. Entertainment News - Brought to you by us. Check out our patreon and consider supporting the show and website on a monthly basisScreenCrush A 'Beauty and the Beast' Prequel Series Is Coming to Disney+ 1 day agoLastly from ScreenCrush, No one makes headlines like Gaston.Disney+ is moving forward with its Beauty and the Beast prequel series, which will focus on the brash, arrogant Gaston and his trusty sidekick LeFou. Luke Evans (The Alienist) and Josh Gad (Frozen 2) will reprise their respective roles, which they first portrayed in Disney's live-action 2017 remake of the original movie.Evans and Gad are also joined by Briana Middleton (The Tender Bar) as a new character, LeFou's step-sister. According to the official press release, “the series will follow Gaston and LeFou as they set off with LeFou's step-sister, Tilly, after a surprising revelation from her past comes to light, sending the unlikely trio off on an unexpected journey filled with romance, comedy, and adventure.”The show is being written and produced by Gad alongside Once Upon a Time's Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz. Liesl Tommy (Eclipsed) is attached to direct the first installment of the eight-episode series. EGOT Award-winning composer Alan Menken, who wrote the music for the 1991 animated Beauty and the Beast, returns with an all-new score.“For anyone who's ever wondered how a brute like Gaston and a goof like LeFou could have ever become friends and partners, or how a mystical enchantress came to cast that fateful spell on the prince-turned-beast, this series will finally provide those answers ... and provoke a whole new set of questions,” said Gary Marsh, president of Disney Branded Television, in a statement.Jeff: This should be a fun way to get some B&B backstory. Do you think Disney should do more things like this with their catalogue of stories?Matt Heafy's Reveals Twitch Channel Income Drawing PowerDuring the pandemic, artists had to find new ways to reach their audience and in a New York Times piece, Trivium's Matt Heafy reveals just how enjoyable and profitable his life has been since joining the streaming platform Twitch, revealing he makes nearly as much there as from Trivium's other music streaming platforms combined.Heafy was one of several artists profiled within the piece, which addresses how Twitch has become one of the more profitable streaming platforms for artists. In the piece, it's revealed that In 2019 and 2020, Heafy's band, Trivium, collected an average of $11,000 a month from the other audio streaming services while his own Twitch channel generated just under $10,000 from an audience that was about one-tenth the size.Heafy says his daily routine consists of getting his twins dressed and fed before decamping to a bedroom at his Florida home where he uses three computers and three cameras as well as his assorted musical instruments and gear to connect with his viewing audience. Typically online between 9AM and 3PM, the Trivium frontman will practice guitar riffs, play first-person shooter video games and has become known for some of his cover songs and production work.Two of Heafy's most recent collaborations have been delivering a metal version of Richard Marx's '80s ballad "Right Here Waiting" with the pop-rock singer and pairing up with fellow Twitch user Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park on a new track called "In Defiance." Both collaborations had some "fly on the wall" screen time with Heafy on the Twitch platform as they were coming together.According to the New York Times article, Heafy has around 220,000 followers on Twitch with an average of over 10,000 watching at any moment.“Even if I don't feel like practicing, I know people are going to be there who want to hear a couple hours of their favorite Trivium songs,” Heafy said. “So I make sure I'm there to make their day good.”Bofa: You and Jeff are both musicians. This sounds like the market is ripe for good music. Have you thought about trying to focus on music on your streams?James Gunn Has Talked to the Heads of Marvel and DC About the Possibility of a Crossover Movie — GeekTyrantComic book fans know that there is a divide when it comes to the fandom of DC and Marvel properties. Fans typically gravitate toward one or the other, or if they do enjoy both, they know they are in separate camps. Rarely have the characters from one property crossed over to the other universe in print, and we haven't seen it happen yet in the modern blockbuster.But while it isn't likely, it's not completely out of the question if you ask James Gunn. The Guardians of the Galaxy and upcoming The Suicide Squad director has crossed over, so he's not ruling out the possibility of the films also merging one day. In a recent Tweet, a fan asked Gunn, “Along this lines, do you think there's even a remote chance we ever see a big blockbuster crossover between the MCU and DC?”.Gunn replied, “I've casually talked to the powers-that-be at both Marvel & DC about it. I would love for it to happen. I don't think it's likely, but I don't think it's an impossibility either. THAT SAID, just constantly seeing crossovers & mashups is less enchanting to me than a strong story.”So it's not like he has a pitch ready to go, but I think that if Gunn came up with the right story, he's just the director that both studios would be happy to hear out.Stump: If you could have your dream DC/Marvel mashup, what would it look like?BOLD PREDICTIONS~Plug your stuff.~Zazzaboo plug the site, Pod etc~Don't forget to check out the patreon.Thanks and we will see you next week!★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Ever wondered why your content never gets the engagement you know it deserves? You are really creative, or an expert in your field but the folks you need to reach just aren't biting? This can be a blow to your pride, trust me I’ve posted viral videos with millions of views but also great content that received a few hundred.  In this episode, I sit down with a great friend and fellow Savage Marketer, Pamela Sisson to discuss how to get attention online. This segment is called the Savage Market Spotlight where we break down how we, ourselves, found a proven method to garner the right audience and engagement. Before you take a listen, here a few takeaways: Know the age of your demographic.Know what type of content is going to be relevant to that audience.Stay consistent! Savage Marketer Spotlight: Getting Attention Online with Pamela Sisson ‘’So think about your 15-second video, you got to hook them in to see what happens at the end.” Jeff “Do you need to be everywhere online OR do you just need to be where your core audiences?” ~ Pamela“You don't even have to have good content! You just have to have stuff that draws people in and tells a good story.” Jeff Subscribe : Apple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher Show Notes  Savage Marketer Spotlight: Getting Attention Online with Pamela Sisson [01:04] New Segment: Savage Marketer Spotlight [03:02] Going viral on Tiktok [7:14] Break down of how to analyze a Tik Tok video [12:13] How to keep people engaged through a full video [14:26] How to keep folks interested in the duration of a video. [17:23] Learning from underperforming content. [20:11] Narrowing the common denominator of your audience. [25:49] The need to be everywhere online. [29:42] Know the difference between social media platform audiences. Subscribe : Apple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher Episode mentioned: Soundcloud Follow the Host Jeff J Hunter WebsiteLinkedinInstagramFacebook Follow the Guest Website Join the Conversation Our favorite part of recording a live podcast each week is participating in the great conversations that happen on our live chat, on social media, and in our comments section.  Join our community at:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/savagemarketers

For All Abilities – The Podcast Episode Eighteen  - Stephanie Robertson   In this episode, I interview Stephanie Robertson. We discuss the challenge of her diagnosis of OCD as a very young child and how she has navigated school and work with the diagnosis. To connect with Stephanie, please go follow her on LinkedIn (Stephanie Robertson).  Please subscribe to For All Abilities – The Podcast! Please follow me on Instagram @forallabilities, LinkedIn (Betsy Furler) and on Facebook (For All Abilities). Go to our website www.forallabilities.com for information on our software that enables employers to support their employees with ADHD, Dyslexia, Learning Differences and Autism. Thanks for listening!  Betsy     Thanks for listening to For All Abilities today!    Share the podcast with your friends, they’ll thank you for it!   Get our newsletter and stay up to date! The newsletter link is on our website www.forallabilities.com   Follow me   Twitter: @betsyfurler   Instagram: @forallabilities   Facebook: @forallabilites   LinkedIn: @BetsyFurler   Website: www.forallabilities.com                 Betsy Furler  0:05   Welcome to for all abilities, the podcasts. This is your host, Betsy Furler. The aim of this podcast is to highlight the amazing things people with ADHD, dyslexia, learning differences and autism are doing to improve our world. Have a listen to for all abilities, the podcast, and please subscribe on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on.   Stephanie Robertson  0:34   Hey, Stephanie, welcome to the for all abilities podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.   Hi.   So I'm gonna have you introduce yourself to my audience. And just tell us a little tell us your full name and a little bit about yourself?   Sure, my name is Stephanie Robertson. I am 36 years old. I'm a native officer. And I, which we like to say around here is pretty rare. I work for Dell Technologies. I'm in channel sales. So I do business to business through third party value added resources, and it's a little complex, definitely a little stressful. We like to call it the Dell personality. But it's been really good for me and I'm interested to see where you know where it's gonna go in my life.   Awesome. Well, we connected because we were in the same sorority in college, but a few years apart, we will Domini and so we connected because of that. And we were in the best already Kappa Gamma Chi and Austin college. And so we I was I had posted that I'm watching this podcast for all abilities and you had volunteered to be a guest I'm super excited, because you have been diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD. And yeah, I am so excited to hear about how that's affected you throughout your life. So why don't we first start with childhood? And I know you were, you had to have been successful at some point in school because our college is pretty hard to get into. So anyway, so tell me what you were like as a child and kind of how the diagnosis came about and, and how your OCD affected you when you were in school.   Yeah, so I think the earliest thing that I really remember related to like OCD and just kind of like finding out about it. My grandparents lived abroad. And so they were living in the south of France, and I was about three or four years old. Maybe just Before my fourth birthday, when my grandmother passed away suddenly, and my parents, there was a big push at the time to be very honest with your children. And so my parents, in the interest of being very honest with their children answered all of my questions about death. very honest. And so, you know, when I, when I would ask things like, well, will we all die? Will you die? Will she die? Will I die? Then the answer to that was yes. And they would say things like, but not for a long time. And I think that that's really shaped a lot of my own parenting, for obvious reasons, but part of it was because when I was four years old, I couldn't tell time. And so a long time for me was 30 minutes in the way that I measured. That was a Flintstone.   I was like,   yeah, yeah.   And so for me, you know, one or two episodes of Flintstones or two to Flintstones was a long time. So that was kind of one of the first times that I really then it came to my parents notice that maybe I thought a little differently or that maybe I had, you know, issues working through other stuff differently than other kids did. And so that started kind of coming out a little bit more after she passed and the funeral and my other grandmother moved in with us for some time and she had a lot of issues around food she was big into like macrobiotics and all of the healthy stuff way before it was cool, if you know what I mean. Yeah. And so like, we weren't allowed to shop on the inside of the grocery store. We could only buy things right in the wall, like the outside walls. We had no sugar cereals in the house because those are poison and all that and you know, my little young brain was just soaking all of that up. And so what was healthy to others became really very unhealthy to me and So my parents called the school and they said, you know, she eating at school because she's not eating at home. And of course, that's a red flag and this, this was in 1989. So OCD wasn't really a thing in 1989 like, not even like a social circle, okay. Oh, you know, people are like, Oh, my, my OCD is kicking up, which is a different topic to me now. But like that wasn't even a thing then people didn't add was saying that. And so to my school, it just panicked them. And so of course they call Child Protective Services. Wow. Because they were like, Why? Why doesn't your daughter want to eat at home? Oh, she thinks he's being poisoned. Cool. Why does your daughter think that that you're poisoning her? So like an active services, came into our lives and interviewed our entire family and me and followed us around for weeks before they realized that no, my parents were not actually doing anything neglectful or abusive. That really what I needed was therapy and about what was going on in my head and, you know, kind of set the stage for how does your child think differently? And luckily, they did that I got a counselor, a play counselor, and I think this all went on from about the ages from five to seven, trying to figure out what was going on. And it   took me years to identify, oh, how about your parents are still scarred by that whole CPS? Oh.   My mom still tells the story and just talks about, you know, just talks about like, being in the therapists office and, you know, the big test today or the big interview day when when CPS came to interview me, and that when they walked back into the office, I guess I'd hidden like, I'd played hide or seek or something so I was little over and my mom didn't see me in the office and she just about lost it like she thought the baby okay. What Yeah, I have to bust through? Ah ha, oh my goodness. Yeah. So we still talk about that. But um, that was kind of the diagnosis and like the recognition and like I said it took, it took a couple of years to identify it and to figure out what do you do with that?   Right and sounds like you were a really, really bright child too, which probably made it all worse because you were able to find more information and remember that information and, and yeah, then you're a little brain was just taking that information and doing all sorts of things.   Yes, I was reading voraciously from an early age. I mean, by seven years old, I was reading Little Women by Louisa May Alcott. Uh huh. And, you know, I mean, like I said, my grandparents lived abroad. So I had a concept of the world and know that it's more than just driving distance from a young guy. So, so I did, I just took in all kinds of information all the time and tried to find places for it. And it didn't always work out. Because at that age again, you don't, you may have a concept of the world but it's not. It's not the concept of the world, right? Where you're trying to filter it in and make a structure.   It was so interesting to me when I had so as you know, my 21 year old son is medically come very medically complex. And he's also super, super bright. And I it was so interesting when he was little how he would make sense of things in the world. Because he was so bright and he knew so much for his age, like he had so many he's always had so much knowledge, but he didn't have all the knowledge, right. So he would, he would move things around in such interesting ways. Like I remember in I think in first grade, he said, Oh, so and so is sick, she's been home. She hasn't been In school for three days, and then he said, I wonder what hospital she's in? And I was like, oh, oh, you think if you're sick, you're in the hospital because that's what his life that's what's his reality. Right. I was like, No, baby. Most people don't have to go to a hospital. Other than that, that, you know. Anyway, yeah, it's so interesting how young children process information and then layers of other issues and your own unique brain structure makes it even more interesting. So how did you do? Were you a good student? Were you over overly over over thinker and all of that kind of type of student? I'm   definitely definitely an over thinker. You know, I think one of the things that I it took me a long time to place and to figure out what the OCD is that it makes you very much an all or nothing kind A person. And so in elementary and middle school and you know, the early years of high school, it meant All right, all right, A's or the world is ending. All homework is turned in, or the world is ending, I think I was in fourth grade. And I went to the nurse's office and I was just sick, I was ready to throw up. It was horrible, because I couldn't find my reading books. And I knew that I had put them in my Cubby, but couldn't find them. And I guess somebody had moved them or something from one desk to another. And so I just, I was so anxious about getting in trouble and not in you know, being the bad kid that didn't add them. And, you know, what would happen? I don't even know what would have happened in my head. Right, you know, and that was just, you didn't have to have a consequence in my head. It was just that there could be a consequence. Right. And, you know, I mean, I made myself sick enough to go to the nurse and I didn't have a fever. So finally, they sent me Back to the classroom after I had, you know, wasted enough time that wasn't reading time anymore. Hmm. And hopefully I would not get busted for not having these books. And then when I got back to the classroom, my teacher was like, oh, Stephanie, your books were on this desk. So we went ahead and put them in your cubby for you. I'm glad you're feeling better. Wow, that was it. So much of my school life was like that it was if you're going to win, first place, you participate. If you're going to do this, then then you can compete then you can do these things. So many nights, late nights up. many weeks and weeks and weeks of studying and things like that. And if there was going to be a win, or something like I've done, I would be in it. And then if at some point, I were to realize that that wasn't going to happen, then it was just out completely out of the money. Yes, absolutely. 100% and I learned I learned how to stop competing and things to avoid Like thinking shopping and be interested in some of the things to avoid that disappointment.   Wow. So that must have been really impactful on what classes you chose and what extracurriculars you chose?   Unknown Speaker  12:18   Oh gosh, yes.   Stephanie Robertson  12:20   You know, I volunteer for the OSU Humane Society when I was 13 years old. And I was the youngest volunteer that they had ever allowed. And I loved it. I got to volunteer in the clinic with the veterinarians and do like medical things. When it was great. And I was like, I'm going to be a vet, and it's gonna be fabulous. And then my freshman year of high school, I failed algebra. And my sophomore year of high school, I had to retake algebra, and I still barely passed it. And then I heard that algebra to follow that. If you wanted to be a veterinarian that you had to take, Chem, and biology and all of these things that have to do with science and math, and I had failed it one time. So obviously, I was not good at math. And I obviously could not go into the sciences and definitely could not be a veterinarian. Wow. And it totally changed the way that I looked at school all of a sudden it was now you're gonna look at the arts and now you're gonna look at the soft sciences and part of the part of the girls can't do that part of the you can't write up part of that this is just not how your brain thinks. And I turned it off for years. And it was like a mental block just can't do that. And so, you know, I mean, in college, I think my degree is not I think it's in I know it's in political science and psychology   that the audience that don't know, we went to Stephen and I both went to a liberal arts college and I was a psychology sociology major with a minor in religion. And I only took statistics I was the only math I took in college and I don't think I took any science.   I took sat three times and eat on our professor finally looked at me and he was like, you need this to graduate, right? And I was like, Yeah, I do. He graded one question on my final. And he looked at me like, how did you get this answer? And I was like, I, I didn't know how to do that one. So I made it up. And this is how I did it. He was like, Yeah, I don't know how you got the right answer. But it's right. So   yay.   Yeah, I just I couldn't science. I couldn't math and I couldn't science for years and years and years all the way through college. And it probably didn't, probably didn't overcome that mental block towards math and finances and science and any of that until maybe five or six years ago.   So that   Unknown Speaker  14:45   2030s   Stephanie Robertson  14:46   now you're working for a tech company,   computer company, so you're aware. I mean, even if your job isn't sciency mathy techie, every one around you is science a mathy type Do people tell us how you got there?   Well, you know, I, when I graduated from Austin college, I wanted to go out and change the world. And you know, I think that's one of the wonderful things about that school is it really encouraged us to encourage us to think big. And it was really hard to think big, and get paid very little. My first few years out of college and I worked in nonprofit and I did all of these things. And at one point, and I worked for a wonderful company called amantha, pet, maybe low cost spay neuter, and and preventive care for cats and dogs. And it was a really wonderful experience but it also I kind of reached a point where I'd I'd plateaued like I wasn't going to move forward without more or deeper experience or more education or just just something more i'd reached kind of as far as I could get at that stage and I didn't want to stay at that stage for another you know, three to five years getting paid, think at the time it was like $14 an hour. And I couldn't afford a new car. And I, you know, my car was breaking down, I lived as close as I could, to the area where we served, which was southeast Austin, where there are bars on most of the windows. I lived as close as I could do that without having bars on my windows. And you know, I got married, and we were looking at a family and all of a sudden, I was like, I can't, I can't pay back my student loans on this. I can't read the family on this. I can't do all of these things. So I need to make a change, whether it's go get more school or go get different experience or whatever the case is, I need to make a change. And right. My husband was very techie. Interestingly enough, he also worked for Dell at the time, but he's very computer techie engineering. He and my brother in law kept saying, Jeff, you need to come to Dell, you need to come to Dell. And so one day we were out to lunch, he is trying to convince Jeff Do you need to come to go and I just looked it up. Like why don't you don't want me back, I can learn how to sell computer will be fine. And literally like they basically had to teach me how to turn it on. And Wow, what's what's in the guts of it and you're going to have these conversations with people about their, their, you know, cloud strategy and servers and their storage and on prem or off Prem or, or hyper converged and all these things that I was like, I don't even know what that is. I can tell you the difference between a laptop and a desktop and after that you pretty much got me and Ernie, listen to music while you're smart, you'll learn and so I was five months pregnant with our second. I was paying still paying for insurance at the time because neither of our jobs provided it. And I went as a contracting agent temp to perm to Dell. And I was like, I've got five months to get myself a permanent job and I'm telling you I applied myself like I never have and I learned That I can learn science and I can learn technology and I can learn numbers and I can do it in a crunch. So, you know, it kind of just, it took that it took that like gut punch moment like, you know, you don't have a choice to fail here. You don't have that luxury of not trying and you don't have the luxury of not winning. You have to do it. Right. Right.   Wow, that was a bill, that was a big change for you. And how do you how do you think your CD affected you both negatively and positively in that change? Because that's a that was obviously a major change in your career and the trajectory of your life in general.   Yeah, definitely. You know, Dell is it's a really interesting place. I never thought that I would find myself in corporate America. Prior to Dell, I never worked anywhere that had more than 50 employees at my location. Even with my large companies, most of them didn't have more than 50 employees, people And going in there the first time, it was so overwhelming, I just went into building two of the seven in Round Rock, which is one of, you know, the three bases in Texas and horses global company. And so I just walked in there and I was like, Oh my god, this is just this building alone to the city. And it was so overwhelming. But they're also really, really, really inclusive. And they give you the resources that you need, they give you you know, the benefits and the time. And when you talk to your managers, they care to learn about you and what helps drive you. And so I found it to be just a really welcoming and inclusive place. And I learned how to use those weird quirks about myself as strengths. So I took Strengths Finder, for the first time while I was at amantha patent, I took it again, while I've been at Bethel and kind of looked at what are some of the consistent strengths and you know, music all kinds of self You know, understanding tests and evaluations and stuff. But one of one of my strengths is achiever. And I guess that basically, I'm really good at picking goals. And then it's followed by the other strength of strategy. So I'm really good at picking goals and problem solving how I'm going to get there. And then making a list and checking it off one at a time. And I kind of finally just let that OCD piece of me take over in that sense, where it was like, Okay, this is a place where it's actually healthy, to let my brain think the way that it thinks. Yeah. And so let yourself be goal oriented. Let yourself be task oriented. Let yourself figure out when is it right to be attacked versus a big, you know, overhead strategy and and play with it and let your brain figure out what it needs to do. And that, weirdly enough has worked. For me in sales and at Dell.   What it sounds like that now what you're doing is perfectly so suited to how your brain works?   Unknown Speaker  21:03   Yes. And kind of   Stephanie Robertson  21:07   make sure difference of the way your brain works differently into a strength for that job.   Definitely, definitely. I will say one of the challenges about a job, you know, like mine, in sales, you know, entails you're partially commission, or many people are all commissioned, right? And so if you want to make money, it's there for the making, but you're going to work for it, you know, and so, right. Dell is known you you work hard and you play hard, but you definitely work hard and you're never really 100% off. That's, that's in that that's just a millennial thing or a Gen Z thing or as we're going forward, people want more mobility and flexibility in the way that they work. And, I mean, that's one of the things that I sell. So I understand it very innately. People want to work when they want to work and Where they want to work and so whenever really off your brains always somewhere ticking in the background towards work. And I realized that that that same piece of OCD that made me really good at this job is also kind of a double edged sword. I can't be completely disconnected In fact, the only time that I have ever been completely and totally disconnected from work since I started was on the cruise this spring.   Unknown Speaker  22:26   Well, I was gonna   Stephanie Robertson  22:29   Yeah, I didn't I didn't get to go on the our sorties cruise I was gonna go and I was signed up and then my son was too sick and I just because you are totally cut off. I was like, I can't be cut off right now. But I will have to say I did go on a cruise a few years prior to that with my kids. And it was I was in a panic for the first 36 hours because of the lack of connectivity. And then I was like, Huh, hold on. I can Do this. Oh, let me grab this book. That's a printed book. Yeah.   I can read.   Or I could just send him out to nothing. And it was It is I, I think cruises are the best thing for people who cannot stop because you are kind of forced.   Yes, yeah. Yes. I was so nervous about it. I love my kids here. It's the first time I've ever been not in connection with them. They're, they're four and five. Now they were three and four when we went on a cruise. And, you know, I just had to believe Okay, my parents are with them. My husband obviously is with them. Oh, I'm just going to have to have to believe that okay. And I'm going to have to believe that my accounts are okay at work and people can take care of them. And I mean, I was probably a wreck and you were a wreck for three days. I think I was a wreck for about 30 to 40 minutes. Like while we were going out of port and then all of a sudden I was like, Okay, well here's my tie, and   I get mad at me out.   I just finally had to let go. I was like, okay, nothing. We're out of Port now like I right, right after was my travel buddy. And she kept picking up my passport and picking up all these things like while we were trying to get on the boat into the gear, Matt, like you need to just stop and once we were finally out of Port, I was like, Alright, we're out of port. I there's no plan to get me back. There's no car to get me back, right? No, that's not me.   Yeah, I'm in the middle of the golf now. So this is how it is.   Unknown Speaker  24:30   Yes, exactly.   Stephanie Robertson  24:33   Well, that's what it does. Do you have you ever disclosed the fact that you have OCD to an employer, whether it's Dell or any other employer? Yeah. Okay. And then they have did they do any accommodations for you? Or is it just kind of like they know that so if there's any, anything that happens, and you kind of already have that does that conversation open   Um, I've talked like, I mean, they all kind of know about me, I'm largely an open book when it comes to things and I try to do a little bit of education around OCD with people particularly because it is such a no just a saying, Oh, my OCD is acting up or, you know, whatever people like to say, particularly in stressful environments, but I don't really need any, like, work accommodations for it from her heart, like you know, so and I work halfway from home, so two days a week. So yeah, you know, they I kind of let them know what's going on like that, that I have it. If I'm having like a particularly stressful time period where it's really flaring up, then I don't have a flare up is the right term, but when it's really bad, then I kind of let them know ahead. It's mostly around stress and, and they've been pretty good about like, okay, you need, you need a mental health day or you just need a break. day you just need a day off and I'll take, I'll take a day of vacation or a day of PVA we call it personal business PBA and it's, it's time that I can just go so you know, a lot of people use their PBA for for, you know, doctor's appointments and stuff like that. And, and I do with my kids, but I also use it for what I call just a mental day, like when the stress is just getting to me and I just have to go. I'll do that vacation time or PDA time, and my boss is usually pretty good about it, because that's the kind of stuff that doesn't I don't really know what's coming. And they'll just write   right and he just kind of at that point need a break.   Yeah. Plus my first boss at Dell, so the best thing ever, that any employer could say to somebody like me, when I was really stressing out about it, of course, I was pregnant and what's going to happen when I go on maternity leave and I just got, you know, got officially hired on and all this stuff. And he just looked at me in he, he I think I had to go to the hospital for a check or something and he just He's like, we sell computers, and they're not going anywhere. It'll be here when you get back. And I was like, wow, that kind of grace is amazing.   Right, right. I mean, that's one thing I have to say about having my son who has been so medically fragile since he was born.   Unknown Speaker  27:19   And   Stephanie Robertson  27:20   we kind of like, have developed this understanding of if like, everyone's going to live. It's really not that big of an emergency. And, and yeah, I don't have OCD. Or I have really I'm kind of like the, I'm not. I'm the person that I think people think fits in the norm box, but I'm really not normal. But people see, like, if you just looked at me on the paper, and but I am, but you know, you I would still let myself get stressed and think I was in control of stuff that I wasn't in control of. And then through his illness, I really became I'm aware of the fact that really a lot of things that we stress out over really can wane and really aren't that important. It's like it's not really an emergency. And, you know, if everyone's alive, it's not really an emergency. Yeah. So, but it's hard to have that perspective. And our coding does not encourage that perspective.   I agree. And I have a bob's like, Man, that's,   that's amazing.   It was it was really great. And, you know, pregnancy is one of the things that really kind of makes that OCD much more prevalent in demand hormones and everything else going on. And yeah, I didn't know that was my first that was a really interesting postpartum period.   Yeah. And I just having a baby. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's so much responsibility. So much steps that we have to do right. Or you think you   have to do definitely right I, I've always been very open about my mental state with my husband. And of course my family knows because I grew up with it. But you know, I mean, after I had john our oldest, I mean, I thought I had it down like I was like, Oh yeah, I'm wheeling and dealing This is great like I had, this is the chair where we feed him and rock him at night. This is where we paid him. This is where we do everything. And it was all within like, one large bedroom and I had like a sink in the in that bathroom like it was a master upstairs in the little little townhouse, and little townhouse. And I had organized for I didn't have to go downstairs for anything. Like I had everything right there where I could just reach it and I was like, Man, I'm really knocking this out of the park until my mom and my sister like, came and got me and they're like you have to leave your house. Here I gotta I have everything. Like I have everything right here. This is how you should set it up. I am doing well. They're like Stephanie, you're not leaving your house.   She's maybe you don't have it all together as   you know that's what I was like Okay, wow so I really thought that I had this OCD thing down when it came to school or down when it came to work and etc and parenting is what really just knocked it absolutely out of the park through it to pieces had no idea how to pick myself back up together. And you know, I mean, my husband has has a DD diagnosed as well. And there was a few worrying things. Let me tell you. She can't pick up a thought to save his life. And I can't function with the sock in the middle of the room.   Right? Oh, yeah, it's hard.   It's a little wild. But we finally with kids that kind of helps us learn about each other and off and we regularly say in our home, like you just have to, you have to give me grace. Mm hmm. You have to give me the grace to deal with this. Give me the grace to understand about this and for him also. To recognize kind of triggers or points when his add is going to be an issue. And I'll try to just kind of put down things that I need in order to weather the storm. And he started to recognize the same in me like he knows when things are just going to get really like, gridlocked in my head. And this is how things have to be. And so we finally started to get to that point, you know, six and a half years in with two kids that are four and five years old. Ah yeah, and two crazy jobs, but we've we've finally started to get there and and every time that we start to feel like wow, we really have it all together then, you know, like, a curveball and you have to figure it out. But I do think that one of the neat things is about having Jeff with a DD and his diagnosis and then mine is that we are We each have kind of a unique perspective to respect and appreciate each other's strengths and to be more compassionate and understanding with each other. about each weaknesses,   you also probably know more about yourselves than most people know about themselves. You know, because a lot of people have spent that time to really figure out what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses or my you know, and and to be able to know that about yourself and then to the able to communicate it with, you know, with and to someone else. I think that is that's gonna be amazing for your marriage over the year. So what my husband and I have been married for almost 25 years. Well, our anniversary like in a week. And, in fact, I think that's exactly in a week. And I know that our having Henry and all of his struggles made us have to communicate, like you can't go through things like that and not communicate and, and, and being able to be, you know, really communicative, and you know, his, you know, one of my big things is Don't, don't minimize my struggle. My emotion because of your struggle or your emotion, you know, like, like, we can have our own emotions at the same time that that's okay. And yeah, and be able to communicate that and literally say, you know, I know you're stressed, but that doesn't minimize my stress.   And exactly,   that's been actually hard for me because I'm a fixer, and I want to fix every buddy and everything. And so, you know, I would I, especially in the beginning of our marriage, and when Henry was really little, I would just try to make everything smooth for everyone else. Like, even if it meant me not showing emotion, but that's not good for a relationship. What do you know what you're describing that talking back and forth? I think that's what really that's what really helps. And I think that I think, is a as as I think that is a good thing about having a diagnosis of some sort is that it does provide more insight into how you, you will work in the world. And move around around the world.   Definitely, we probably our first four years of marriage, we just kind of duke it out. Like, yeah, thought about those things. We didn't know how to talk about it yet. And, you know, for me with OCD, it's like I said, I'm an all or nothing person. And it's, you know, all winning or if you're going to fail, you just walk away. And so when things broke, then my answer to it was walk away from get over it. Right? Just get over it. And you don't you don't get to mire in mire yourself into depression about it or anything like that. Because then you're never going to get out of there. Yeah, yeah. And I've had to work really hard on learning how to accept that there are feelings and then I'm allowed to feel them. And, you know, that was one of the things that we had a very hard time with, because he's very fighter flight. He is he's gonna fly every time. He does not fight. he avoids it. And I'm like, you get back here and you get over it. did not go well, those arguments, right? And we actually we went to marriage counseling and we thought that they were going to talk about our marriage and like, Well, no, you need to respect each other and you need to do all this. But really actually what they did focus on was they focused on our on our diagnoses, and they're like, you guys, pretty much what they said guys know about yourself, do you know how you function with yourselves and you have to learn how you function with each other, and you have to communicate about yourself to the other person. And that's where we got the concept of, you know, you have to give me grace right now.   Yeah, that's great. That's great. I think that's going to serve you well. And your children too. Do you want to add anything else to the anything else you want to tell the audience or   are you anything you know, I mean,   I always want to say something incredibly profound. I don't always have anything incredibly profound. But you know, I think one of the biggest things just in relation to to my own just weird mental way of Thinking with OCD and everything else is that you know, it's not what people think it is. It's not, you know, oh, I have to have all I mean, I do have to have all my clothes organized in a certain way, but that's not gonna make it or break it thing. The biggest thing about OCD that is so debilitating and so difficult is that feeling of unworthiness and that feeling that you can't trust your gut, that you don't have a gut because everything's always wrong. So you can't trust yourself and you have to create this entire other rational being. And you know, that there is a way for there is a way to function and you can, you can function well and you can even find those things that work for you about it. And talk about Yes, and that when people talk about like oh, my OCD is flaring up or Oh, you know, this is gonna drive OCD people crazy and it's at Facebook with the images were like one line is slightly off right? You know, just to remember that, that that's not what you deal with and not to let it be minimized like that. Because I feel like that just, it tells you mentally, like, really, you can't get over a simple BuzzFeed list, like get over yourself. Mm hmm. You should just be able to push on. And that's not what it is and to not let yourself into let the way that you can get minimized into that because it really is so much more. And if you can figure out if you can give it the weight and the gravity that it has, then you can figure out how to be successful over and beyond it.   Awesome. That is great advice. Ds people want to come up, communicate or reach out to you. How should they find you?   I am on LinkedIn. And I am Stephanie Robertson. I work at Dell.   Awesome. And I will put that in the show notes. Everyone has the information.   Awesome. So thank you so much for letting me be a part of this.   Thank you so much. This was wonderful. I really am Appreciate it.   Thank you. I had a great time chatting with you.   Betsy Furler  38:06   Thanks so much for listening to the for all abilities podcast. This is Betsy Furler, your host and I really appreciate your time listening to the podcast. And please subscribe on any podcast app that you're listening to us on. If you'd like to know more about what we do and our software that helps employer support their employees with ADHD, dyslexia, learning differences and autism, please go to www dot for all abilities comm You can also follow us on Instagram. And you can follow me on LinkedIn at Betsy Furler. And Frank, you are LR Have a great day and we will see you soon.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Jeff: So were you always able to live with only a few possessions?Jonathan: Oh, certainly not. The first trip I ever did to South America I had the most massive backpack you could imagine. I mean I had to get it from a sort of military surplus store because I needed to have the kind of volume that a World War Two soldier would have had to carry things, all of his survival gear. When I traveled to Africa in my early twenties, I brought along things like, for example, a jungle hammock, you know because I was convinced that I was going to be stringing up the ropes of this, and sleeping above the ground because I was worried about some sort of dangerous animals that might come after me. When, then later, you find out the reality is, that you're always able to find some sort of accommodation even if it's very budget type and wasn't a problem.Jeff: Do you think... would you recommend this type of lifestyle to someone else?Jonathan: I don't know if my life styles very suitable for other people because they have more roots than I do. They've settled down in some way. They have a regular job that they have to go to. Myself, usually only working perhaps four months a year, I don't have the same responsibilities that other people do and I'm not married. I don't have kids. I have no need to decorate a room in any way.Jeff: Well, tomorrow, I'm getting rid of my house, all my possessions and saying goodbye to my girlfriend and buying a suitcase.Jonathan: OK. As long as you don't try to live out of mine. There isn't enough room for you as well.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Jeff: So were you always able to live with only a few possessions?Jonathan: Oh, certainly not. The first trip I ever did to South America I had the most massive backpack you could imagine. I mean I had to get it from a sort of military surplus store because I needed to have the kind of volume that a World War Two soldier would have had to carry things, all of his survival gear. When I traveled to Africa in my early twenties, I brought along things like, for example, a jungle hammock, you know because I was convinced that I was going to be stringing up the ropes of this, and sleeping above the ground because I was worried about some sort of dangerous animals that might come after me. When, then later, you find out the reality is, that you're always able to find some sort of accommodation even if it's very budget type and wasn't a problem.Jeff: Do you think... would you recommend this type of lifestyle to someone else?Jonathan: I don't know if my life styles very suitable for other people because they have more roots than I do. They've settled down in some way. They have a regular job that they have to go to. Myself, usually only working perhaps four months a year, I don't have the same responsibilities that other people do and I'm not married. I don't have kids. I have no need to decorate a room in any way.Jeff: Well, tomorrow, I'm getting rid of my house, all my possessions and saying goodbye to my girlfriend and buying a suitcase.Jonathan: OK. As long as you don't try to live out of mine. There isn't enough room for you as well.

Jeff & Will talk about their upcoming trip to New York City for the Romance Writers of America national conference and reveal the news that they will be among the presenters at the RITA Awards ceremony on Friday, July 26. Will reviews The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee while Jeff reviews a book Bonnie co-wrote with Summer Devon called The Nobleman and the Spy. Jeff interviews Michael Vance Gurley about his new YA steampunk novel Absolute Heart (Infernal Instruments of the Dragon #1). Michael discusses the inspiration behind the story, what he did to build the world it takes place in and what he hopes for the trilogy. He also talks about what's coming up next for him. Complete shownotes for episode 198 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Michael Vance Gurley This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome Michael to the podcast, or back to the podcast I should say. Michael: I'm super excited. Thanks for having me Jeff. Jeff: Yeah. We were talking before I hit the record button that we last had you on in Episode 42 and now we are at 198, it's kind of crazy. So like you did the first time we had you on, you've come up with a book that I didn't even know I needed to read when I first got to read it. So you've got this YA book called 'Absolute Heart'. It's the first book in the 'Infernal Instruments of the Dragon' series. Tell everybody what this is about, both the book and the series behind it. Michael: 'Absolute Heart' is above all else a steampunk book. It's an adventure set in a world where clockwork powered England - in 1880s Victorian era England - is at war, a sort of Cold War, when we first pick up the series, against the Magically Powered Ireland who's been kind of besieged by the Brotherhood of the mage. It's a clock. It's a warlock group that is sort of made the queen subservient to them in ways you have to find out when you read it. And it's really the story about two boys. Gavin the high councilman's son from England and his friends, following him when he has these terrible secrets - he thinks they're terrible - and when they're found out he could be executed for them, for at least one of them. So he does what all teenagers do when they have something awful happen and they think they're gonna get trouble, he runs away and his friend, his best friend Landa who's an art officer, which is a mechanic, a computer engineer and she's a powerful female character that I'm really proud of. And she has his back and challenges him and calls him foolish when he's foolish and she goes with him and some other people who have their own agendas on this quest. Then the other side, the Brotherhood, sends Orion of Oberon who is a young warlock of immense power because he's the nephew of the ailing Irish Queen. They send him off to get the most powerful weapon in the world - the dragon stones and there's a lot of mystery and history about the dragon stones and what they are and what they can actually do, but they want them to end this war in their favor. So of course they have a meet cute, or at least I hope people think it's a meet cute. They have to decide like, are they going to get together? Will they/won't they? Of course, there's the will they/won't they thing. I'm really excited about the steampunk adventure and it sets off and is set to be a trilogy so I'm really excited about that, and hopefully people will like it - the inclusion of fairies and the air steamships and all the wonder that is steampunk. Jeff: Steampunk it's so not really anything I read... I dabble in it periodically, but something about Gavin and Orion and the bad ass friend you gave Gavin. Full disclosure to the listeners, I read a very early draft of this. You have a lot going on in book one, what you've parroted back now, into a more condensed story, but how did all this coalesce and come together and what was the inspiration? Michael: You really should pat yourself on the back because your viewers should know that you read an early ARC and gave me notes, and edited, and really kind of dissected it for me - like, wherever it was messy you, like a good editor said, "That's messy." The research starts with reading steam punk books and reading a lots of YA, which is of course a terrible addiction of mine. In reading all of that steampunk and finding those characters that you like, and you want to write about - because I use Scrivener, you have the photo option to put your vision of the characters, the places, the ships - you put photos in there and I work with a split screen so I can always reference that, so I never really lose track of it. But yeah, it was great looking into all that steampunk stuff and going into like Cassandra Claire's 'Clockwork Angels' series or Scott Westerfield's 'Leviathan' series. And if I can get even a little bit of that spirit I'll be really happy. But it starts with loving steampunk. You really should write what you know and write what you love. I've never been an airship captain but I love reading about them and I love that whole idea. And you know, thinking about like 'Leviathan', that series has a powerful gender bending quality to it, with the girl because she has to, dresses like a boy and acts like a boy in order to have a career - and I love that. I hope I've engendered Landa with that a little bit as well. Jeff: What went into creating your world of magic in Ireland and steam power and clockwork in England, because there's so much that you can pull from to create the steampunk universe. What was your decision to make these things your universe? Michael: Steampunk is - one of the amazing things about it is, an amazing thing about worldbuilding as well, is you can go with historical fiction. You know, like my first book and it's wonderfully creative but you're also stuck with... you can't lie. It's historical fiction, you can make up characters and you can make up some things, but really if you get too far away from reality, people stop believing in what you're writing about with historical fiction. At least I think so. I stuck with the roaring 20s pretty well and that kind of thing. Steampunk is like a little bit to where you're in the 1880s Victorian era. But then you have these advances and you can get creative and wild and all of that. A lot of that came from traveling for me too, like I've traveled to Ireland and I kissed the Blarney Stone, which of course means I'm full of B.S. I guess, the gift gab you know. And then I went to England and I went to Stonehenge and I played around amongst all of the hinges there, because that's where they keep them, and how a lot of fun. And the idea of the magic stones and power and Irish magic and castles - and then of course the troubles with the war between Northern Ireland and England - and I just rolled that back 40 years or so, and brought all that magic and the Stones and the power, I brought all that together and that's really where the idea came from. I also wrote a comic book like 20 years ago that had a lot of the fantasy stuff in it and it never got published but I tweaked it and changed it throughout the years. You can almost say that this part of this book- the backstory, the fantasy magic side - is about 20 years in the making, which I guess makes this a labor of love. Jeff: That's very cool that it goes back quite that far. Michael: Makes me feel old saying it out loud. Jeff: You could have had the idea when you were 5 or 6. What do we have to look forward to as the as the trilogy progresses - without obviously spoiling anything necessarily - but what can you kind of hint at about the story arc? Michael: Well, you know I'm a big fan of sci-fi, and Steampunk is really an offshoot of sci-fi in a way, or vice versa I guess. But, you know 'Star Wars' originally was 'Star Wars' and then they added 'A New Hope' to the title when they were like, "Well, you know Darth Vader is still out there." I mean, you know they gave Luke and Han Solo some medals. But, you know, then you get Darth Vader out there. So I love that idea of there's always more. If you look for it, if you see the little bits, like there's actually Darth Vader and an emperor... we're still at war guys, so come back for 'Empire', and guess what, it's going to get darker and worse and that's really kind of what's happening here - the book sort of gives you an ending but - and I think so does every book [in the series]. It has an ending, but it really isn't. If you're reading it, you know there's a lot more that's about to come down, and we might lose some people along the way, and maybe find some new people that you love, who's together might not always be together. Jeff: So with everything, between the magic and the clockwork and the steam and everything, your story, your book bible for this must be huge. Michael: I used this great British author named Ellen Gregory who did some high seas adventure, and she read an early Edit 2 and gave me some criticisms - which I kept calling British-isms - and gave me some pointers in that, and we were joking about that too, that I have one hundred pages on the parts of a ship... hundreds of pages and you could just bore people to death writing about that. It's like giving that little bit to make it believable, and make it feel fantastic or whatever, and then let it go. And then I just use that incredible knowledge about mid ships and jibs at parties. I can talk about all that stuff at a party now, but you don't put too much worldbuilding in, but it is fun. I do have lots of stuff, like when I'm writing, there's fairies in the book and I did so much research about Oberon, the king of the fairies and all that history. And then my amazing editor Dawn Johnson at Dreamspinner/Harmony Ink - I mean the whole team has been amazing, and each person has challenged me. Which is really part of the deal, you have to kill your darlings right? You have to allow some of your characters to change with some of the professional feedback. And so, anyway, I was able to use that research and pull it in and I still miss stuff, and some of those editors were like, "Hey, you know the name of that person? Shouldn't it be this, for this reason historically?" I'm like, "Yep, I don't know what I was thinking." You know, And so it really takes a village, you know. Jeff: What do you hope people get out of this book? Michael: What I'm hoping to get out of it is enough people interested to get a whole trilogy out of it and to get an audio book. I really want to hear this story come alive - the swashbuckling adventure come alive. I hope people get entertainment out of it. I hope they feel empowered and maybe challenged on their beliefs a little bit, which is, you know, a lofty goal. And it sounds like hubris to say it, but I hope people read it and see the LGBTQ+ world is just like everything else. It's steeped in mystery, and history, and great characters with amazing depth, capable of heroic acts and terrible evils, and everything in between. You know, some people will write a character and be afraid to make the gay character or the trans character do something horrible, but that's wrong. They have to do everything that everyone else does in order to make it real. And so I'm hoping people will forgive me if I do something horrible to a character, or make them do something terribly wicked... you know, mustache twirling - and not, of course, hate the straight characters that do bad things as well. Jeff: Right. Now, you kept a lot of this book in your family, in some ways too, because your husband Jason Buren did the cover and interior art - and the cover is gorgeous. Michael: Thank you. I love the art. Jeff: How did he come to get involved in it an what was it like collaborating with him on those elements? Michael: Well, Jason's an amazing artist and graphic designer. We actually worked on the first one together and we worked on comic books together and what I realized through it - honestly working with Dawn and the great editors, kind of makes you realize some things - you have to back up and state your vision. Say what you want. Show covers of things you like, and things you don't like, and then not micromanage it. Because then what you're going to get is my artistry, which I'm a writer you know, not technically a graphic artist. So you really get your best work if you let the artist kind of figure it out and that's what happened. I let go of the reins of both books and I think that the covers are amazing, if I do say so myself. I think this cover is so exactly what I wanted to be, and I was unable to say it out loud. And that's what a good artist should do in the interiors too. I wanted so badly to have chapter art and I know that people don't have to let you do stuff like that, but [my publisher] Dreamspinner was so amazing. I pitched this idea of clockwork meets fantasy with the Dragon Wing and the clockwork gears together So I'm so excited to show some of that together with the dragon wings with the mixture. Anyway I'm so excited and geek about it. I even got a little gears as text breaks in the art, in the books, it's really fun. It's really gorgeous. But you, know let go and see what happens. That's the idea. Jeff: When you were here in Episode 42, we were talking about a historical m/m hockey romance called 'The Long Season'. This is a total departure. Unless you can talk about the fact that you're dealing with historical times. Had you always seen in your career switching genres so completely? Michael: You know that's a great question. I want to challenge myself to do something completely different every time. And so, like being a new writer, writing historical fiction was crazy. That's too much to take on. I said, "Well, whatever. It's a labor of love, you know?" So then for my second novel, a trilogy? Themed like science fiction? Like, "Oh you're crazy, that's too much. You're not going to handle it." And who knows what we'll see. The first one got picked up, thank you Dreamspinner and I'm super excited about it. I want to challenge myself and I love that genre. So I say, let's do something completely different. People ask me about doing a sequel of 'The Long Season'. We're doing another hockey book. You know, I'm really proud of the fact that I wrote a character, Maggie in 'The Long Season' who was Brett's best friend. Turns out Bret's best friend started off with John Paul, which I'm really proud that people want a Maggie story and I think that's amazing. Who knows when that might happen. I might do that. My grandmother certainly, when she read it before she passed away, she said it can't end here and she's right... another story. And I did all that roaring 20s research... who knows, I might go back, but I want to challenge myself to do something different. I could write another hockey book because I love it and I love the whole romance side of it and who knows. Jeff: I was thinking you need to find a way to introduce hockey into the Infernal Instruments universe. Michael: I mean, there might be some sports related in there a little bit, but like medieval hockey? That would be fun. I mean the 1880s isn't too far away from Lord Stanley, so they could theoretically run into Lord Stanley somewhere. You know that can happen. Good idea. Jeff: Do you foresee more in this universe, potentially if the if the trilogy works out and is successful? Michael: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's set up perfectly for a TV show. That's huge right. But I've even thought about - I have a friend who's a game designer and I even thought about... man, that would be amazing. That whole steampunk idea is a huge world and you'll see in book two, the world's even bigger than you see in book one because it's a world at war. It's a world half conquered by clockwork powered England and half conquered by magic powered Ireland. So everywhere you go France, and Germany, and Africa, and potentially the United States. Are they even the United States? It's a huge world, so the stories could go anywhere. You know I think of like, Gideon Smith books. 'Gideon Smith and the Mechanical Girl' I think the first is called. They, at some point, they end up in an airship going to the United States, and the Wild West, and Egypt, and all kinds of things. Steampunk is open. Jeff: I hope that just keeps going and expanding. So what's coming up next for you? Are you done with book two or are still writing on the trilogy ,and can you look beyond this first trilogy? What's next? Michael: Well, interestingly enough, it goes back to your last question. Books two and three, the trilogy, has a beginning, middle, and end in my head. Of course there could be more after that, much like 'The Long Season', but in my mind I've already started about halfway through writing a third completely different genre book, challenging myself with something completely different, which is a contemporary YA book built on my travels to Antarctica. So it's a YA, two young people who meet and fall in love on a cruise to Antarctica. Sort of a travelog and what happens, and the interesting things, and people, and penguins that they see. I won't give away too much, meaning - that's what I'm in the middle of now. Jeff: That's exciting. A little something new there. Again, totally disparate, but you mentioned what you want to keep mixing it up. Michael: So yeah. And we'll see how that works out. I'm working with a gender nonconforming character, which is really new for me, it's taken lots of research to get intersectionality in the forefront of the book, you know not as a ploy, but as a reality of the world that we live in, and people that need representation. So I'm really excited about that. Jeff: Hurry up and write that please. Michael: All right. Hopefully, if you're willing, you'll probably see it before anybody else as a proofreader. Jeff: What's the best way for folks to keep up with you online, to keep up is as 'Infernal Instruments' continues and this new contemporary book starts to take shape? Michael: If they go to my full name - MichaelVanceGurley.com. Go on there and there'll be links to my two book sites and to my Instagram, they can go to Captain Rhetoric on Instagram and find me, that's where I write self-involved book reviews where hopefully people care about what I think about these amazing books that I read, and travel pictures, and just little bits like that, not too much of me, just sort of what I see about the world. I like to do that on Instagram and that's the best way to keep up with me. Jeff: Well I wish you the best of success with 'Absolute Heart'. It's been great to talk to you a little bit about it. And when that contemporary is done you'll have to come on back. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee. Reviewed by Will.The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee is a makeover story with Pygmalionthemes in a historical setting. Essentially, an irresistible gay version of My Fair Lady. The story centers on a guy named Arthur. He is the well-to-do gentleman in this particular scenario and, one day, he's out enjoying the good life with his bestie, a guy named Granville. Occasionally Arthur calls Granville, “Granny” and it totally cracked me up. Granville believes very heavily in the British class system. Arthur is a little more modern in views. He feels that if a man has the wherewithal and can pull himself up by his bootstraps, he can achieve anything with his life, no matter where he was born on the ladder of social hierarchy. In order to prove their different theories, they set a wager, and that bet involves Joe the shoeshine boy. Arthur must make Joe a gentleman in six weeks. It is there that he will make his debut at the biggest party of the social season. Joe moves in with Arthur who is very glad that to realize that Joe is not only very smart and very kind, he is hardworking and interested in bettering himself. Joe is undertaking this particular makeover because he has dreams of owning his own men's shop one day - with a focus on finely crafted shoes. They get down to work and, after spending several days studying and learning which fork to use, they decide to get some fresh air. So they go for a constitutional in the park where they unfortunately run into Granville, who's like escorting some demure young ladies. Joe does very in his first unexpected like test. Arthur and Joe now realize that they have definite feelings for one another. Their next test comes during an evening at the theater where they unfortunately run into Granville yet again (this dude's everywhere). Granville has befriended a professor of linguistics, and Arthur knows that Granville is only befriending this schlub because he plans on bringing the linguist to the party to expose Joe as some sort of lower-class fraud. Joe handles the situation admirably. He's proving himself time and time again, but Granny is not going to give up. He makes sure that Arthur's family is invited to the big soiree, and his family comes to stay, making it nearly impossible to have any alone time with Joe. Finally, the big evening arrives and everything goes swimmingly. Joe is tested but everyone is really charmed and quite taken by him. When it comes to Pygmalionstories there is usually a point in the narrative where the Eliza Doolittle character has to wonder if the professor is in love with her, or the person that she's pretending to be. We kind of skip over that in this particular story because it's really obvious that Arthur and Joe are like completely into one another. What ends up happening is that Joe feels guilty, his conscious getting the better of him. All these lords and ladies and debutantes are remarkably kind to him, and he feels genuinely bad that he's pulling the wool over their eyes. That guilt eventually leads him to leave Arthur's house sooner, rather than later. Arthur and Joe try to figure out how can they make their relationship work, but they can’t. Even though they've essentially won the bet and they've proven their point, the fact is that the class system is still very much a thing and the two of them are from two different worlds. Joe packs his bags and leaves and Arthur ends up going to India. He has been convinced by his brother and his father that he has to finally grow up and take part in the family business. While he's away, Joe uses the money that he earns from the bet and opens his own shop. When Arthur finally arrives back in England, there's a big declaration of love scene because they realize they are both utterly and completely miserable without one another. And they both vow to find some way that they're going to make it work. I really, really loved this book an awful lot. I loved these two characters that Bonnie Dee created I was rooting for them the entire time. The Nobleman and the Spy by Bonnie Dee & Summer Devon. Reviewed by Jeff & Will.Jeff: Bonnie and Summer are both new to me authors. The Nobleman and the Spy, which I would call a second-chance romantic suspense historical, was a complete delight full of intrigue and some steaming hot sex. Solider-turned-British spy Jonathan Reese is assigned to keep watch over German Karl von Binder. Jonathan knows Karl all too well because during the war Karl spared Jonathan’s life. It doesn’t take much for Jonathan to lose focus on his mission and pay attention to the man who has come back into his life. He’s also aware that he cares too much for Karl to allow anything to happen to him, despite the fact that his orders as the mission begins are a bit mixed if he should allow the man to be killed or not. Karl, despite the forbidden attraction to Jonathan, tries to keep the spy at length, sure that he can protect himself. As evidence piles up though that there’s someone on Karl’s trail, the two end up working together trying to figure out who’s behind it. It’s a tangled web that I didn’t quite believe even as it was all falling into place. The resolution was certainly something I’d never anticipated as I tried to solve it as I read along. It was quite a thrill. I loved the feel of this book. In often reminded me of a childhood favorite TV show, Wild Wild West, which was set in the same time period of the mid 1860s. While this isn’t set in the American west with some strange characters as villains, the time period comes through loud and clear in a rich setting and how the characters carry themselves. I also liked how Karl and Jonathan recognized that they couldn't give in to their attraction but the more they couldn't give into it the more they really want to. And then when they got together it was so intense. Narrator Todd Scott I have to say does a terrific job with the entire story but the sex scenes…off the charts! Will: What really struck me and what I enjoyed the most is that it's essentially a bodyguard trope and it has all the different things that go along with that but in a historical setting. So it was sexy and it was fun and there's lots of adventure and action. I really enjoyed this one as well. Jeff: Calling out the bodyguard trope is really appropriate. But what makes it a little different, at least to me, is that Karl doesn't really want to be guarded. But Jonathan certainly takes that role because he keeps reinserting himself even where he's taken off the case. He wants to keep Karl safe at all costs. So, yes, we both highly recommend The Nobleman and the Spy by Bonnie Dee and Summer Devon.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Jeff: Tim, I'm a teacher, but you can have many, many jobs in the world. If you could pick any job, what do you think would be a cool job?Tim: Well, to be honest, I think it would be pretty cool to be a fisherman.Jeff: Fisherman!Tim: Yeah. Believe it or not I really like the ocean. I like spending time in the ocean and I think if you go out on those boats and get away from the land, you really get in touch with the sea and I just think that you get to work with your hands.Jeff: Is it dangerous though?Tim: Oh, it is dangerous. For sure. You can hook yourself. You can get caught in storms. It can be not so good.Jeff: Do you get paid a lot of money?Tim: Not so much, but that is not necessarily so important. You know. You can work with nature. You can catch your own food. Provide for yourself and I think that's really rewarding. How about you? What do you think would be a cool job?Jeff: I think I would like to be a writer.Tim: Why is that?Jeff: Because a movie star would be good, or a rock star but there is too much fame. Too many people always want to talk to you or want your autograph, but I think a writer, you are doing something you love without all that pressure or media coming after you and you can sort of make your own time and do it where you like. You can write in the country in a cabin or you can write in the city anywhere you like so I think it is a very flexible rewarding job.Tim: Yeah, you got to have the skill for it though. Do you think you have that skill?Jeff: No, I'm a terrible writer, but if I could have my pick of jobs, I'd like to be a writer. How about you? You would like to be a fisherman. Any other jobs you would like to be?Tim: Another job that I think might be cool is a fireman to tell you the truth. Again, you kind of working with nature. I'd really like to be a sort of a slash and burn fireman. Someone that goes out where there's wildfires, things like that, cause you're working with nature.Jeff: Those guys, the slash-and-burn fireman, they get to jump out of helicopters sometimes.Tim: Some of them do yeah, but that's kind of the glamorous one. Yeah, I wouldn't mind just being the guy that's on the ground, and the nice thing about it is you work really, really hard and you get paid pretty well for the time you work but then you get a long time off.Jeff: But, I'm a little bit scared of fires. You don't mind fire?Tim: I don't mind fire so much. You know. It's hot and it can be really, really dangerous but I don't know, it's kind of exciting and I like the idea of being out there in nature and just working hard to survive and working in a team. I think it would be good.Jeff: I want to be an astronaut. I think an astronaut would be good.Tim: Why is that? It's a dangerous job. A fireman's dangerous but it sounds like and astronaut would be pretty dangerous as well.Jeff: A little dangerous but I'd like to go to the moon to see what's on the moon. I think it would be kind of neat to be on the moon and looking back at the earth. They call the earth the blue planet. I think it would be neat to sit up there and look back on the earth and it would be kind of neat I think.Tim: Sounds like you like the ocean. You should think about being a fisherman.Jeff: No way! No thanks.

Show Notes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum and I’m back with Nachi Gupta for the 30th episode of EMplify and the first Post-Ponte Vedra Episode of 2019. I hope everybody enjoyed a fantastic conference. This month, we are sticking in the abdomen for another round of evidence-based medicine, focusing on Emergency Department Management of Patients With Complications of Bariatric Surgery. Nachi: As the obesity epidemic continues to worsen in America, bariatric procedures are becoming more and more common, and this population is one that you will need to be comfortable seeing. Jeff: Thankfully, this month’s author, Dr. Ogunniyi, associate residency director at Harbor-UCLA, is here to help with this month’s evidence-based article. Nachi: And don’t forget Dr. Li of NYU and Dr. Luber of McGovern Medical School, who both played a roll by peer reviewing this article. So let’s dive in, starting with some background. Starting off with some real basics, obesity is defined as a BMI of greater than 30. Jeff: Oh man, already starting with the personal assaults, I see how this is gonna go… Show More v Nachi: Nah! Just some definitions, nothing personal! Jeff: Whatever, back to the article… Obesity is associated with an increased risk of hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and diabetes. Rising levels of obesity and associated co-morbidities also lead to an increase in bariatric procedures, and thereby ED visits! Nachi: One study found a 30-day ED utilization rate of 11% for those undergoing bariatric surgery with an admission rate of 5%. Another study found a 1-year post Roux-en-y ED visit rate of 31% and yet another found that 25% of these patients will require admission within 2 years of surgery. Jeff: Well that’s kind worrisome. Nachi: It sure is, but maybe even more worrisome is the rising prevalence of obesity. While it was < 15% in 1990, by 2016 it reached 40%. That’s almost half of the population. Additionally, back in 2010, it was estimated that 6.6% of the US population had a BMI> 40 – approximately 15.5 million adults!! Jeff: Admittedly, the US numbers look awful, and honestly are awful, but this is a global problem. From the 80’s to 2008, the worldwide prevalence of obesity nearly doubled! Nachi: Luckily, bariatric surgical procedures were invented and honed to the point that they have really shown measurable achievements in sustained weight loss. Along with treating obesity, these procedures have also resulted in an improvement in associated comorbidities like hypertension, diabetes, NAFLD, and dyslipidemia. Jeff: A 2014 study even showed an up to 80% reduction in the likelihood of developing DM2 postoperatively at the 7-year mark. Nachi: Taken all together, the rising rates of obesity and the rising success and availability of bariatric procedures has led to an increased number of bariatric procedures, with 228,000 performed in the US in 2017. Jeff: And while it’s not exactly core EM, we’re going to briefly discuss indications for bariatric surgery, as this is something we don’t often review even in academic training programs. Nachi: According to joint guidelines from the American Society for Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, and The Obesity Society, there are three groups that meet indications for bariatric surgery. The first is patients with a BMI greater than or equal to 40 without coexisting medical problems. The second is patients with a BMI greater than or equal to 35 with at least one obesity related comorbidity such as hypertension, hyperlipidemia, or obstructive sleep apnea. And finally, the third is patient with a BMI of 30-35 with DM or metabolic syndrome though current evidence is limited for this group. Jeff: Based on the obesity numbers, we just cited – it seems like a TON of people should be eligible for these procedures. Which again reiterates why this is such an important topic for us as EM clinicians to be well-versed in. Nachi: As far as types of procedures go – while there are many, there are 3 major ones being done in the US and these are the lap sleeve gastrectomy, Roux-en-Y gastric bypass, and lap adjustable gastric banding. In 2017, these were performed 60%, 18%, and 3% of the time. Jeff: And sadly, no two procedures were created alike and you must familiarize yourself with not only the procedure but also its associated complications. Nachi: So we have a lot to cover! overall, these surgeries are relatively safe with one 2014 review publishing a 10-17% overall complication rate and a perioperative 30 day mortality of less than 1%. Jeff: Before we get into the ED specific treatment guidelines, I think it’s worth discussing the procedures in more detail first. Understanding the surgeries will make understanding the workup, treatment, and disposition in the ED much easier. Nachi: Bariatric procedures can be classified as either restrictive or malabsorptive, with restrictive procedures essentially limiting intake and malabsorptive procedures limiting nutrient absorption. Not surprisingly, combined restrictive and malabsorptive procedures like the Roux-en-y gastric bypass tend to be the most effective. Jeff: Do note, however that 2013 guidelines do not recommend one procedure over another and leave that decision up to local surgical expertise, patient specific risk factors, and treatment goals. Nachi: That’s certainly an important point for the candidate patient. Let’s start by discussing the lap gastric sleeve. In this restrictive procedure, 80% of the greater curvature of the stomach is excised producing early satiety and weight loss from decreased caloric intake. This has been shown to have both low mortality and a low overall rate of complications. Jeff: Next we have the lap adjustable gastric band. This is also a restrictive procedure in which a plastic band is placed laparoscopically around the fundus leaving behind a small pouch that can change in size as the reservoir is inflated and deflated percutaneously. Nachi: Unfortunately this procedure is associated with a relatively high re-operation rate – one study found 20% of patients required removal or revision. Jeff: Even more shockingly, some series showed a 52% repeat operation rate. Nachi: 20-50% chance of removal, revision, or other cause for return to ER - those are some high numbers. Finally, there is the roux-en-y gastric bypass. As we mentioned previously this is both a restrictive and a malabsorptive procedure. In this procedure, the duodenum is separated from the proximal jejunum, and the jejunum is connected to a small gastric pouch. Food therefore transits from a small stomach to the small bowel. This leads to decreased caloric intake and decreased digestion and absorption. Jeff: Those are the main 3 procedures to know about. For the sake of completeness, just be aware that there is also the biliopancreatic diversion with or without a duodenal switch, as well as a vertical banded gastroplasty. The biliopancreatic diversion is used infrequently but is one of the most effective procedure in treating diabetes, though it does have an increased risk of complications. Expect to see this mostly in those with BMIs over 50. Nachi: Now that you have a sense of the procedures, let’s talk complications, both general and specific. Jeff: Of course, it should go without saying that this population is susceptive to all the typical post-operative complications such as venous thromboembolic disease, atelectasis, pneumonia, UTIs, and wound complications. Nachi: Because of their typical comorbidities, CAD and PE are still the leading causes of mortality, especially within the perioperative period. Jeff: Also, be on the lookout for self-harm emergencies as patients with known psychiatric disorders are at increased risk following bariatric surgery. Nachi: Surgical complications are wide ranging and can be grouped into early and late complications. More on this later… Jeff: Nutritional deficiencies are common enough to warrant pre and postoperative screening. Thiamine deficiency is one of the most common deficiencies. This can manifest within 1-3 months of surgery as beriberi or later as Wernicke encephalopathy. Symptoms of beriberi include peripheral neuropathy, ataxia, muscle weakness, high-output heart failure, LE edema, and respiratory distress. Nachi: All of that being said, each specific procedure has it’s own unique set of complications that we should discuss. Let’s start with the sleeve gastrectomy. Jeff: Early complications of sleeve gastrectomy include staple-line leaks, strictures, and hemorrhage. Leakage from the staple line typically presents within the first week, but can present up to 35 days, usually with fevers, tachycardia, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting sepsis, or peritonitis. This is one of the most serious and dreaded early complications and represents an important cause of morbidity with an incidence of 3-7%. Nachi: Strictures commonly occur at the incisura angularis of the remnant stomach and are usually due to ischemia, leaks, or twisting of the gastric pouch. Patients with strictures usually have n/v, reflux, and intolerance to oral intake. Jeff: Hemorrhage occurs due to erosions at the staple line, resulting in peritonitis, hematemesis, or melena. Nachi: Late complications of sleeve gastrectomies include reflux, which occurs in up to 25% of patients, and strictures, which lead to epigastric discomfort, nausea, and dysphagia. Jeff: I’m getting reflux and massive heartburn just thinking about all of these complications, or the tacos i just ate…. Next we have the Roux-en-Y bypass. Nachi: Early complications of the Roux-en-Y Gastric Bypass include anastomotic or staple line leaks, hemorrhage, early postoperative obstruction, and dumping syndrome. Jeff: Leak incidence ranges from 1-6%, usually occurring at the gastro-jejunostomy site. Patients typically present within the first 10 days with abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, and the feeling of impending doom. Some may present with isolated tachycardia while others may present with profound sepsis – tachycardia, hypotension, and fever. Nachi: Similar to the sleeve, hemorrhage can occur both intraperitoneally or intraluminally. This may lead to hematemesis or melena depending on the location of bleeding. Jeff: Early obstructions usually occur at either the gastro-jejunal or jejuno-jejunal junction. Depending on the location, patients typically present either within 2 days or in the first few weeks in the case of the gastro-jejunal site. Nachi: If the obstruction occurs in the jejuno-jejunostomy site, this can cause subsequent dilatation of the excluded stomach and lead to perforation, which portends a very poor prognosis. Jeff: Next, we have dumping syndrome. This has been seen in up to 50% of Roux-en-Y patients. Nachi: Early dumping occurs within 10-30 minutes after ingestion. As food rapidly empties from the stomach, this leads to distention and increased contractility, leading to nausea, abdominal pain, bloating, and diarrhea. This usually resolves within 7-12 weeks. Jeff: Moving on to late complications of the roux-en y - first we have marginal ulcers. Peptic ulcer disease and diabetes are risk factors and tobacco use and NSAIDs appear to increase your risk. In the worse case, they present with hematemesis or melena. Nachi: Internal hernias, intussusception, and SBOs are also seen after Roux-en-y gastric bypass. Patients with internal hernias usually present late in the postoperative period following significant weight loss. Jeff: Most studies cite a rate of 1-3% for internal hernias, with mortality up to 50% if there is strangulation. Nachi: And unfortunately for us on the front lines, diagnosis can be challenging. Presenting symptoms may be vague and CT imaging may be negative when patients are pain free, thus laparoscopy may be needed to definitively exclude an internal hernia. Jeff: Strictures may occur both during the early and late period. Most are minor, but significant strictures may result in obstruction. Nachi: Trocar site hernias and ventral hernias are also late complications, usually found after significant weight loss. Jeff: Cholelithiasis is another very common complication of bypass surgery, occurring in up to one third of patients, usually occurring during a peak incidence period between 6-18 months. Nachi: For this reason, the current recommendation is that patients undergoing bypass be placed on ursodeoxycholic acid for 6 months preventatively. Jeff: Some even go as far as to recommend prophylactic cholecystectomy to prevent complications, but as of 2013, the recommendation was only ‘to consider’ it. Nachi: Nutritional deficiencies are also common complications. Vitamin D, B12, Calcium, foate, iron, and thiamine deficiencies are all well documented complications. Patients typically take vitamins postoperatively to prevent such complications. Jeff: And next we have late dumping syndrome, which is far more rare than the last two complications. In late dumping syndrome, 1-3 hours after a meal, patients suffer hypoglycemia from excessive insulin release following the food bolus entering the GI tract. Symptoms are those typical of hypoglycemia. Nachi: Lastly, let’s talk about complications of lap adjustable gastric band surgery. In the early post op period, you can have esophageal and gastric perforations, which typically occur during balloon placement. Patients present with abd pain, n/v, and peritonitis. These patients often require emergent operative intervention. Jeff: The band can also be overtightened resulting in distention of the proximal gastric pouch. Presenting symptoms include abd pain with food and liquid intolerance and vomiting. Symptoms resolves once the balloon is deflated. The band can also slip, allowing the stomach to move upward and within the band. This occurs in up to 22% of patients and can cause strangulation. Presentation is similar to bowel ischemia. Nachi: Later complications include port site infections due to repeated port access. The infection can spread into connector tubing and the peritoneal cavity causing systemic symptoms. Definitely start antibiotics and touch base with the bariatric surgeon. Jeff: The connector can also dislodge or rupture with time. This can present as an arrest in weight loss. It’s diagnosed by contrast injection into the port. Of note, this complication is less common due to changes in the technique used. Nachi: Much like early band slippage and prolapse, patients can also experience late band slippage and prolapse after weeks or months. In extreme cases, the patients can again have strangulation and symptoms of bowel ischemia. More mild cases will present with arrest in weight loss, reflux, and n/v. Jeff: The band can also erode and migrate into the stomach cavity. If this occurs, it usually happens within 2 years of the initial procedure with an incidence of 4-11%. Presenting symptoms here include epigastric pain, bleeding, and infections. You’ll want to obtain emergent imaging if you are concerned. Nachi: And lastly there are two rare complications worth mentioning from any gastric bypass surgery. These are nephrolithiasis, possibly due to increased urinary oxalate excretion or hypocitraturia, and rhabdomyloysis. Jeff: That was a ton of information but certainly valuable as most EM clinicians, even ones in practice for decades, are unlikely to have that depth of knowledge on bariatric surgery. Nachi: And truthfully these patients are complicated. Aside from the pathologies we just discussed, you also have to still bear in mind other abdominal conditions unrelated to their surgery like appendicitis, diverticulitis, pyelo, colitis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, mesenteric ischemia, and GI bleeds. Jeff: Moving on to my favorite - prehospital care - as always, ABCs first. Consider IV access and early IV fluids in those at risk for dehydration and intra-abdominal infections. In terms of destination, if it’s feasible and the patient is stable consider transport directly to the nearest bariatric center - early efforts up front will really expedite patient care. Nachi: Once in the ED, you will want to continue initial stabilization. Special considerations for the airway include a concern for a difficult airway due to body habitus. Make sure to position appropriately and preoxygenate the patients if time allows. Keep the patient upright for as long as possible as they may desaturate quickly when flat. Jeff: We both routinely raise the head of the bed for all of our intubations. This is ever more important for your obese patients to help maximize your chance of first pass success without significant desaturation. Nachi: And though I’m sure we all remember this from residency, it’s worth repeating: tidal volume settings on the ventilator should be based on ideal body weight, not actual body weight. At 6 to 8 mL/kg. Jeff: Tachycardic patients should make you concerned for hypovolemia 2/2 dehydration, sepsis, leaks, and blood loss. Consider performing a RUSH exam (that is rapid ultrasound for shock and hypotension) to identify the cause. A HR > 120 with abdominal pain should make you concerned enough to discuss urgent ex-lap with the surgeon to evaluate for the post op complications we discussed earlier. Nachi: If possible, obtain a view of the IVC also while doing your ultrasound to assess for volume status. But bear in mind that ultrasound will undoubtedly be more difficult if the patient has a large body habitus, so don’t be disappointed if you’re not getting the best views. Jeff: Resuscitation should be aimed at early fluid replacement with IV crystalloids for hypovolemic patients and packed RBC transfusions for patients presumed to be unstable from hemorrhage. No real surprises there for our listeners. Nachi: Once stabilized, gather a thorough history. In addition to the usual questions, ask about po intolerance, early satiety, hematemesis, and hematochezia. Definitely also gather a thorough surgical history including name of procedure, date, known complications post op, and name of the surgeon. Jeff: You might also run into “medical tourism” or global bariatric care. Patients are traveling overseas to get their bariatric care more and more frequently. Accreditation and oversight is variable in different countries and there isn’t a worldwide standard of care. Just an important phenomenon to be aware of in this population. Nachi: On physical exam, be sure to look directly at the belly, making note of any infections especially near a port-site. Given the reorganized anatomy and extent of soft tissue in obese patients, don’t be reassured by a benign exam. Something awful may be happening deeper. Jeff: This naturally brings us into diagnostic testing. Not surprisingly, labs will be helpful in these patients. Make sure to check abdominal labs and a lipase. Abnormal LFTs or lipase may indicate obstruction of the biliopancreatic limb in bypass patients. Nachi: A lactic acid level will help in suspected cases of hypoperfusion from sepsis or bowel ischemia. Jeff: And as we mentioned earlier, these patients are often at risk for ACS given their comorbidities. Be sure to check a troponin if you suspect cardiac ischemia. Nachi: If concerned for sepsis, draw blood cultures, and if concerned for hemorrhage, be sure to send a type and screen. Urinalysis and urine culture should be considered especially for early post op patients, symptomatic patients, or those with GU complaints. Jeff: And don’t forget the urine pregnancy test for women of childbearing age, especially prior to imaging. Nachi: Check an EKG immediately after arrival for any patient that may be concerning for ACS. A normal ekg of course does not rule out a cardiac cause of their presentation. Jeff: As for imaging, plain radiographs certainly play a role here. For patients with respiratory complaints, check a CXR. In the early postoperative period, there is increased risk for pneumonia. Nachi: Unstable patients with abdominal pain will benefit from an emergent abdominal series, which may show free air under the diaphragm, pneumatosis, air-fluid levels, or even dilated loops of bowel. Jeff: Of course don’t forget that intra abd air may be seen after laparoscopic procedures depending on how recently the operation was performed. Nachi: Plain x-ray can also help diagnose malpositioned or slipped gastric bands. But a negative study doesn’t rule out any of these pathologies definitively, given the generally limited sensitivity and specificity of x-ray. Jeff: You might also consider an upper GI series. Emergent uses include diagnosis of slipped or prolapsed gastric bands as well as gastric or esophageal perforations. Urgent indications include diagnosis of strictures. These can also diagnose gastric band erosions and help identify staple-line or anastomotic leaks in stable patients. Nachi: However, upper GI series might not be easy to obtain in the ED, so it’s often not the first test performed. Jeff: This brings us to the workhorse for diagnostic evaluation. The CT. Depending on suspected pathology, oral and/or IV contrast will be helpful. Oral contrast can help identify gastric band erosions, staple-line leaks, and anastomotic leaks. Leaks can be identified in up 86% of cases with oral contrast. Nachi: CT will also help diagnose internal hernias. You might see the swirl sign on CT, which represents swirling of the mesenteric vessels. This is highly predictive of an internal hernia, with a sensitivity of 78-100% and specificity of 80-90% according to at least two studies. Jeff: While CT is extremely helpful in making this diagnosis, note that it may be falsely negative for internal hernias. A retrospective review showed a sensitivity of 76% and a specificity of 60%. It also showed that 22% of patients with an internal hernia on surgical exploration had a negative CT in the ED. Another study found a false negative rate of 32%. What does all this mean? It likely means that a negative study may still necessitate diagnostic laparoscopy to rule out an internal hernia. Nachi: While talking about CT, we should definitely mention CTA for concern of pulmonary embolism. In order to limit contrast exposure, you might consider doing a CTA chest and CT of the abdomen simultaneously. Jeff: Next up is ultrasound. Ultrasound is still the first-line imaging modality for assessing the gallbladder and for biliary tract disease. And as we mentioned previously, ultrasound should be considered for your RUSH exam and for assessing the IVC. Nachi: We also should discuss endoscopy, which is the test of choice for diagnosing gastric band erosions. Endoscopy is also useful for evaluating marginal ulcers, strictures, leaks, and GI bleeds. Endoscopy additionally can be therapeutic for patients. Jeff: When treating these patients, attempt to contact the bariatric surgeon for guidance as needed. This shouldn’t delay imaging however. Nachi: For septic patients, make sure your choice of antibiotics covers intra-abdominal gram-negative and anaerobic organisms. Port-site infections require gram-positive coverage to cover skin flora. Additionally, give IV fluids, blood products, and antiemetics as appropriate. Jeff: Alright, so this month, we also have 2 special populations to discuss. First up, the kids. Nachi: Recent estimates from 2015-2016 put the prevalence of obesity of those 2 years old to 19 years old at about 19%. As obese children are at higher risk for comorbidities later in life and bariatric surgery remains one of the best modalities for sustained weight loss, these surgical procedures are also being done in children. Jeff: Criteria for bariatric surgery in the adolescent population is similar to that of adults and includes a BMI of 35 and major comorbidities (like diabetes or moderate to severe sleep apnea) or patients with a BMI 40 with other comorbidities associated with long term risks like hypertension, dyslipidemia, insulin resistance and impaired quality of life. Nachi: Despite many adolescents meeting criteria, they should be referred with caution as the long term effects are unclear and the adolescent experience is still in its infancy with few pediatric specific programs. Jeff: Still, the complication rate is low - about 2.3% with generally good clinical outcomes including improved quality of life and reducing or staving off comorbidities. Nachi: Women of childbearing age are the next special population. They are at particular risk because of the unique caloric and nutrient needs of a pregnant mother. Jeff: Pregnant women who have had bariatric surgery have an increased risk of perinatal complications including prematurity, small for gestational age status, NICU admission and low Apgar scores. However, these risks come with benefits as other studies have shown reduced incidence of pre-eclampsia, large for gestational age neonates, and gestational diabetes. Nachi: 2013 guidelines from various organizations recommend avoiding becoming pregnant for at least 12-18 months postoperatively, with ACOG recommending a minimum of 2 years. Bariatric surgery patients who do become pregnant require serial monitoring for fetal growth and higher doses of supplemental folate. Jeff: We also have 2 pretty cool cutting edge techniques to mention this month before getting to disposition. Nachi: Though these are certainly not going to be done in the ED, you should be aware of two new techniques. Recently, the FDA approved 3 new endoscopic gastric balloon procedures in which a balloon is inflated in the stomach as a means of simulating a restrictive procedure. Complications include perforation, ulceration, GI bleeding, and migration with obstruction. As of now, they are only approved as a temporary modality for up to 6 months. Jeff: And we also have the AspireAssist siphon, which was approved in 2016. With the siphon, a g tube is placed in the stomach, and then ⅓ of the stomach contents is drained 20 minutes after meals, thus limiting overall digested intake. Nachi: Pretty cool stuff... Jeff: Yup - In terms of disposition, decisions should often be made in conjunction with the bariatric surgical team. Urgent and occasionally emergent surgery is required for those with hemodynamic instability, anastomotic or staple line leaks, SBO, acute band slippage with dilatation of the gastric pouch, tight gastric bands, and infected port sites with concurrent intra abdominal infections. Nachi: And while general surgeons should be well-versed in these complications should the patient require an emergent surgery, it is often best to stabilize and consider transfer to your local bariatric specialty facility. Jeff: In addition to the need for admission for surgical procedures, admission should also be considered in those with dehydration and electrolyte disturbances, those with persistent vomiting, those with GI bleeding requiring transfusions, those with acute cholecystitis or choledococholithiasis, and those with malnutrition. Nachi: Finally, patients with chronic strictures, marginal ulcers, asymptomatic trocar or ventral hernias, and stable gastric band erosions can usually be safely discharged after an appropriate conversation with the patient’s bariatric surgeon. Jeff: Definitely a great time to do some joint decision making with the patient and their surgeon. Nachi: Exactly. Let’s close out with some Key points and clinical pearls. Jeff: Bariatric surgeries are being performed more frequently due to both their success in sustained weight loss and improvements in associated comorbidities. Nachi: There is an increased risk of postoperative myocardial infarction and pulmonary embolism after bariatric surgery. There is also an increased risk of self-harm emergencies after bariatric surgery, mostly in patients with known psychiatric co-morbidities. Jeff: Nutritional deficiencies can occur following bariatric surgery, with thiamine deficiency being one of the most common. Look for signs of beriberi or even Wernicke encephalopathy. Nachi: Staple-line leaks are an important cause of postoperative morbidity. Patients often present with abdominal pain, vomiting, sepsis, and peritonitis. Jeff: Strictures can also present postoperatively and cause reflux, epigastric discomfort, and vomiting. Nachi: Intraperitoneal or intraluminal hemorrhage is a known complication of bariatric surgery and may present as peritonitis or with hematemesis and melena. Jeff: After significant weight loss, internal hernias with our without features of strangulation are a late complication. Nachi: Late dumping syndrome is a rare complication following Roux-en-Y bypass occurring months to years postoperatively. It presents with hypoglycemia due to excessive insulin release. Jeff: Esophageal or gastric perforation are early complications of adjustable gastric band surgery. These patients require emergent surgical intervention. Nachi: Overtightening of the gastric band results in food and liquid intolerance. This resolves once the balloon is deflated. Jeff: Late complications of gastric band surgery include port-site infections, connector tubing dislodgement or rupture, band slippage or prolapse, and band erosion with intragastric migration. Nachi: Given the myriad of possible bariatric surgeries, emergency clinicians should be cognizant of procedure-specific complications. Jeff: Consider obtaining a lactic acid level for cases of suspected bowel ischemia or sepsis. Nachi: Endoscopy is the best method for diagnosing and treating gastric band erosions. Jeff: Septic patients should be treated with antibiotics that cover gram-negative and anaerobic organisms. Suspected port site or wound infections require gram positive coverage. Nachi: Pregnant patients who previously had bariatric surgery are at risk for complications from their prior surgery as well as pregnancy-related pathology. Jeff: A plain radiograph may be useful in unstable patients to evaluate for free air under the diaphragm, pneumatosis, air-fluid levels, or dilated loops of bowel. Nachi: CT of the abdomen and pelvis is the mainstay for evaluation. Oral and/or IV contrast should be considered depending on the suspected pathology. Jeff: Have a low threshold for emergent surgical consultation for ill-appearing, unstable, or peritonitic patients. Nachi: So that wraps up Episode 30! Jeff: As always, additional materials are available on our website for Emergency Medicine Practice subscribers. If you’re not a subscriber, consider joining today. You can find out more at ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Subscribers get in-depth articles on hundreds of emergency medicine topics, concise summaries of the articles, calculators and risk scores, and CME credit. You’ll also get enhanced access to the podcast, including any images and tables mentioned. PA’s and NP’s - make sure to use the code APP4 at checkout to save 50%. Nachi: And the address for this month’s cme credit is ebmedicine.net/E0719, so head over there to get your CME credit. As always, the [DING SOUND] you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Lastly, be sure to find us on iTunes and rate us or leave comments there. You can also email us directly at EMplify@ebmedicine.net with any comments or suggestions. Talk to you next month! Most Important References Altieri MS, Wright B, Peredo A, et al. Common weight loss procedures and their complications. Am J Emerg Med. 2018;36(3):475-479. (Review article) Colquitt JL, Pickett K, Loveman E, et al. Surgery for weight loss in adults. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2014(8):CD003641. (Cochrane review; 22 trials) Mechanick JI, Youdim A, Jones DB, et al. Clinical practice guidelines for the perioperative nutritional, metabolic, and nonsurgical support of the bariatric surgery patient—2013 update: cosponsored by American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, The Obesity Society, and American Society for Metabolic & Bariatric Surgery. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2013;21 Suppl 1:S1-S27. (Society practice guidelines) Phillips BT, Shikora SA. The history of metabolic and bariatric surgery: development of standards for patient safety and efficacy. Metabolism. 2018;79:97-107. (Review article) Contival N, Menahem B, Gautier T, et al. Guiding the nonbariatric surgeon through complications of bariatric surgery. J Visc Surg. 2018;155(1):27-40. (Review article) Parrott J, Frank L, Rabena R, et al. American Society for Metabolic and Bariatric Surgery integrated health nutritional guidelines for the surgical weight loss patient, 2016 update: micronutrients. Surg Obes Relat Dis. 2017;13(5):727-741. (Society practice guidelines) Chousleb E, Chousleb A. Management of post-bariatric surgery emergencies. J Gastrointest Surg. 2017;21(11):1946-1953. (Review article) Goudsmedt F, Deylgat B, Coenegrachts K, et al. Internal hernia after laparoscopic Roux-en-Y gastric bypass: a correlation between radiological and operative findings. Obes Surg. 2015;25(4):622-627. (Retrospective review; 7328 patients) Michalsky M, Reichard K, Inge T, et al. ASMBS pediatric committee best practice guidelines. Surg Obes Relat Dis. 2012;8(1):1-7. (Society practice guidelines)

Jeff discusses a deleted scene he’s offering this week from his upcoming book Netminder (Codename: Winger #4). He also recommends The Queer Creative Podcast. Will and Jeff discuss the second season of Netflix’s She-Ra and the Princesses of Power as well as Pose, which has just arrived on Netflix ahead of the new season coming to FX in June. Jeff reviews Queer as a Five Dollar Bill by Lee Wind. Gail Carriger talks to Jeff about her new novel, The Fifth Gender and some of the interesting stories about its creation. They also talk about how Gail went from archeology to writing romance, her process for world building and her travel podcast called The 20 Minute Delay. Complete shownotes for episode 189 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome, Gail, to the podcast. Gail: Hello. Thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here. Jeff: I’m so glad we finally got you on the show because I’ve been, you know, reading since back with “The Sumage Solution” and it’s like, “We gotta get Gail on. We need to get Gail on.” Gail: I am delighted. I am a devoted listener and so I’m quite honored to finally get to be here. It’s great. Jeff: And you’ve got a book coming out or you’ve just had a book come out actually, “The 5th Gender” just released. Gail: I did. Yes, “The 5th Gender,” it’s my like crazy, ridiculous, silly, happy yet cozy murder mystery on a space station with an alien with five genders and tentacles and purple. Jeff: You don’t often get cozy mystery space station together in one package. Gail: It is…it’s great. It was totally one of those spontaneous, I had like a strange thought/dream/idea to do this. And a bunch of us were joking on Twitter about the craziest mashups of genres we could come up with and somebody was like, “Barbarian noir,” and so on and so forth. And I was like, “Well, I wanna do space station, cozy mystery.” And then I started thinking about it and then it happened. Then I was like, “Oh, okay, I’ll write it, I’ll write it.” I was supposed to be writing something else, of course. But sometimes I succumb to the lure of the ooh, shiny. Jeff: And it was a purple shiny too. So how could you resist that? Gail: I could not. And he’s adorable, the alien character. And I, you know, I have a background as an anthropologist. I have an archaeology…couple of archaeology degrees. And so I just love the way if you’re doing an alien character, you can comment on human social structures and culture and interactions. And so I might’ve had a little too much fun with that. Jeff: Well I was actually gonna get into that. I’ll hold that. Because we should at least tell folks, because I want to talk a little bit more about the origin story on this because you wrote about it. So just like, “I had this idea in the middle of the night, and then I tweeted it, and then it was a story,” which I love, but then there’s the fact that you went away to a retreat and worked on it and had to talk to other people about it while you were writing it. Gail: Yes. So for those…I should preface this by saying that for those who don’t know, I have two names I write under. So I write under Gail Carriger and I write under G. L. Carriger and the G. L. stuff has a much higher heat level. So it’s super sexy. And this book, “The 5th Gender” is a G. L. book. So warning for anybody who doesn’t like nooky because one of the things I realized through the course of that particular writing retreat was that if you’re writing about a species with five genders, human curiosity wants to follow them into the bedroom to see what it’s like down there. And so I thought about trying to kind of clean it up a little bit and it just…it didn’t work. So I was like, “Okay, we are going into that realm.” So I was supposed to go on this retreat and write something else entirely, and instead I just spent the entire week writing this book. And one of the funniest stories from that was me being like, “Oh shoot, what does alien jizz taste like?” Because we all know, at least we do if we’ve been reading my San Andreas Shifter series that wizard or mage jizz is fizzy and werewolf is spicy. And I was like, “Well, what do aliens taste like?” And this meant that I literally had to go and you’re never…on a retreat, you’re never supposed to disturb the cooks in the kitchen. But I was like, “If there was ever a question for cooks, this is it.” There is a crazy author running into the kitchen in the middle of them making shepherd’s pie and being like, “Oh, you guys, what does alien jizz taste like? Debate.” So we had a long debate about it and we finally decided, and you’ll have to read the book to find out. Jeff: Yeah, I wasn’t gonna ask you to spoil that, but I do have to know what exactly did the cooks make of this question? Gail: The cooks were quite game actually. I think they were pretty charmed because normally like they’re doing their art form and we’re doing our art form and never the twain shall meet until meal times. So it’s really rare for one of the authors to actually want the cooks’ help on something. So I think they were kind of pleased to be asked. Jeff: That’s very cool because some of them might have been like, “I’m sorry, what?” Gail: Oh, they know what I write. We’ve been going for a long time with the same cooks for a while, so. Jeff: So this group knew you so they weren’t necessarily surprised by… Gail: No. Well, it was a little out of the blue. I haven’t been writing the super sexy stuff for very long. Like normally my questions are like, “What’s the most ridiculously named, you know, Victorian dessert you can think of,” kind of thing. But yes, it was a little different from my usual questions. Jeff: And tell us what this book is about, this cozy mystery on a space station. Gail: Well, the tagline is an alien race with no word for murder has a murderer aboard their spaceship. And essentially the galoi are the aliens in question. And they are these purple…they’re these adorable sort of purple tentacled kind of, you know, High Elf, slightly looking alien creatures. And they are super isolationist. And the only thing that humans know about them is occasionally they will kick one of their genders. It’s always as one of the examples of the fourth or fifth genders and they’re kicked off and they’re in exile, and those galoi, which is the name of this alien race, go and live amongst humans. And humans actually adore them because they think they’re like sweet and cute and adorable. And they have no…they’re pure exiles. So they have no national allegiance, they have no planetary allegiance. And so they make really great attaches. They’re kind of really kind of comforting and lots of different alien races like to be around them. So they often become attaches to like ambassadors and stuff. So a lot of space stations….space stations consider it really lucky if they get one of these. And the main character, Tristol, he’s one of these aliens and he has a mad crush on the human security chief/detective that’s onboard the space station named Dre. But he doesn’t really get kind of like human flirtation and courting rituals. So he’s sort of…the book sort of starts with Tristol trying to figure out what cats are and why you would wanna keep them as a pet because he’s been asked by some human friends to cat sit. And then, of course, the cat escapes and hijinks ensue on the space station because what happens when the cat gets into zero gravity. Nobody wants to find that out. Anyway, and then the galoi are like super xenophobic, so they never reach out to humans. And then suddenly a galoi ship approaches his space station, which is crazy in many, many ways because they shouldn’t be approaching a space station that has an exile aboard it and they never talk to humans anyway. And they have this incredibly complicated non-pronoun language that kind of indicates status and has to do with all of these different genders. And so the humans are kind of panicking and freaking out. They don’t want a war. They don’t know what’s going on. And the spaceship basically says, you know, “We have a murdered galoi and we don’t know what to do. We don’t have security, we don’t have murder investigations. We don’t. So we came to you, violent humans, to figure this out for us.” And of course Dre, the human love interest is the detective. So he and Tristol have to team up because he needs Tristol’s help to explain how the galoi work. And so the two of them gonna figure out who done it and that’s basically it in a very large nutshell. Jeff: How did you go about creating the galoi? I mean, five genders, no term for murder. There’s like so many things that kind of click into this. Is there like…? Gail: I just, so like I said, I have an anthropology background. I mean, archaeology is blank, so obviously the biology and skeletal structures and things is what I mostly studied via anthropology, but you get a lot of like gender studies and cultural representations of gender and all that sort of thing as part of an education in the United States if you do an archaeology degree. And so it’s always been super, super fascinating to me. I have a minor in classical mythology with a focus on gender. It’s just something that has interested me. It’s really hard to tease out in the archaeological record. It’s prone to misinterpretation by archaeologists and historians and anthropologists. So there’s a sort of storied history with our own relationship from a scientific perspective with understanding gender. And so I just took a lot of that both kind of my education and, you know, how the world now is changing. I spent far too much time on Tumblr, so I have a lot of like non-binary and gender fluid and gender queer fans. And so I’ve just been kind of reaching out to friends and acquaintances. One of my best friends in the world is a bioethicist and a medical ethicist. And so she deals with training doctors in how to talk to people appropriately about gender. And so I’ve had all this sort of stuff messing about, and I was like, “Well, a way for me to explore this and have this kind of conversation with myself and the world is through an alien lens.” And so I just…I love thought experiments, and I was like, “So what if we have a race with five different genders and how would their language evolve? How would their culture evolve? How would they treat each other?” Like all of these, you know, archaeological things to think or anthropological things to think about. And then how would humans, even future humans, react when encountering that? And so that’s kind of where the conception started. And then I just made them purple because I like purple. Jeff: Why not? I’m a big purple fan too. Was there a lot of research kind of building this? Gail: Yeah. I actually have multiple blog posts that either I’m releasing them right now or I’ve just released them recently, speaking from the past into the future. But I have a bunch of blog posts about like a bunch of the research that I did and like some book recommendations and stuff like that, both from a fictional perspective and a nonfictional perspective and different blogs and stuff like that. But I like that. I like researching a lot. I try not to rabbit hole too much because the point is to write the actual book. So mostly what I did is I did that intensive week where I sort of just vomited forth this whole book. And then I went back and like teased it apart and looked into different…almost as…I almost treated it a little bit as if it were a nonfiction piece to go back and see what sources do I need to look up, what like different pronoun terms might be being used in hundreds of years, you know, by humans. That sort of thing. And it’s…since both the humans involved… I try to be complex in my races, whether they’re werewolves or aliens in that like…and to not either dystopian or utopianise either race, either humans or aliens. So both races still have issues. Both are still dealing with how the cultures have evolved and all of that sort of thing. So I’m not setting the galoi up as like the perfect model of a possible future. They have a different evolution, a different model. And they’re merely a vehicle for which we can examine perhaps some of our own biases and prejudices now. And that’s getting very, very serious because mostly what I want my books to do is make you happy and cheerful and be excited, delighted. And if it makes you think a little, that’s great. But really I just want to make everybody happy and hopefully Tristol will do that because he’s delightful. I love him. Jeff: What kind of, I guess, beta reading did you do to see how your various fans handle the gender discussion? Gail: Well, I have trans and gender queer and gender bending characters already, both in my main universe and in my traditionally-published books and in all of my…like my independent and my self-published works and in my novellas and stuff. Some of the main characters, some of them side characters. And so I know that they’re open to it, and I also know that the one that, you know, for lack of a better term, I have like a queer-centered, progressive kind of comfort food brand or business model or whatever, however you wanna explain it. And so I feel like most of my super fans are gonna be excited because what they want from me is that comfort, is that sort of upbeat, fun, slightly fluffy, slightly thoughtful, but ultimately, you know, everything’s gonna be all right. I’m never gonna depress you. There’s never gonna be like scenes of torture. It’s never gonna be angsty, you know, all of those things. It’s always gonna be delicious, I guess. Jeff: I like that as a term for a book. That’s just really fun. Gail: Yeah. It’s just gonna be tasty. Yeah. So they know that and that’s the part that they trust and generally I feel like they’re pretty open minded about how I’m gonna go there and explore that. I don’t think I would’ve done this book, you know, five or six years ago because I wasn’t sure. I had to kind of test the waters with the San Andreas books and some of the other stuff. But I think they’re pretty open to it. I don’t know. You never know. We’ll see how everybody reacts. Yeah, so I mean, and I have beta readers and some of them have read it. I was more careful with this book in making sure that like I had sensitivity, what I call delicacy readers. So people within kind of the gender nonconforming community, again, for lack of a better term. That was more important to me really. I don’t wanna offend, although, you know, everybody’s opinion is their own and everyone is entitled to it. So I’m sure if you come to any book with the idea of being offended, you’re probably going to be unfortunately. So, but I did put essentially a naked purple dude on the cover as a kind of like, “Be aware, there’s gonna be sex in this book. We’re gonna go there. We’re gonna go far out there.” Jeff: It’s cozy with sex and it’s funny and it’s sci-fi. It’s got a little bit of everything in it. Gail: Exactly. Jeff: Do you think you’ll revisit this later as like as a continuing series? Gail: I’d love to. Actually, I have another murder mystery and like I don’t consider myself like a mystery writer at all, but I have this thing as a writer where I don’t write a book until I’ve had what I call the epiphany, which is I need to actually see a scene with characters in dialogue. And it might not necessarily be the first scene or whatever, but until I see that I have that crystal moment, I don’t feel like I can write the book. So I have a lot of books that I’d like to write, but I’ve never had the epiphany with. So they’re just sort of sitting there. And I’ve had an epiphany for a second book in this series with Dre investigating another murder and Tristol still there and everything. But I don’t know how people will receive this one, so I don’t know if I will write that one, but it’s definitely there percolating already. So it’s a possibility. Jeff: It’s a possibility. Gail: Yeah. And the universe on the whole, because it is a science fiction universe, actually does have another, of all things, young adult series that’s set at it that’s kind of been on the back burner for a really long time which kind of has nothing really to do with this series except that the same conceits in terms of faster than light travel. And human…like colonization and planetary evolution are the same. And there’s like a couple of crossover alien races, but that’s about it. But it is the same sort of basic far future. Jeff: If you’ve got the universe, you might as well keep using it. So you don’t have to just keep reinventing the wheel. Gail: Precisely. Yes. That’s my feeling. Jeff: What do you hope readers take away from this romp? Gail: Well, like usual, I just want them to be like… My favorite thing is somebody writes to me and says, “You either humiliated me because I was laughing loudly on public transport,” and I’m like, “Yes.” “You kept me up all night.” “Yes.” Or, “You just left me with a big smile.” So that’s really what I genuinely want is a big smile on people’s faces. But it would be nice if people who read it thought a little bit about…a bit more about gender and how we intimately link biological sex with gender and that perhaps that’s not necessarily the…I don’t know, ethical thing to do – that perhaps gender is in fact a social construct. Or cultural construct. It’s something that anthropologists just accept. Like if you’re an anthropologist, you just accept that as a fact. Like we know, we have seen all of these different ancient and modern races or cultures with varying different interpretations of genders and it just…I don’t think it would ever occur to an anthropologist to like not be like, “Yes, gender is cultural,” but it seems that in the world today that isn’t an accepted principle. And so I guess, if anything, I want people to kind of get it, to maybe think a little bit about pronoun use and all that sort of stuff, I guess. Jeff: Now, as both Gail and G. L., you run across a lot of genres. You’ve got your urban fantasy, you’ve got some paranormal. Now you’ve got cozy mysteries in space. Comedy definitely cuts across all of them. Is there a genre you like most? Gail: I would say I have wheelhouses more than anything else. So there’s a podcast called “Reading Glasses” that talks about as readers we tend to have wheelhouses and if you read heavily in romance, you define those often as tropes. You know, like, “I like the enemies to lover,” or whatever. But a wheelhouse kind of has other things. So, and I would say that there are definitely wheelhouses I gravitate to. So I always write the heroine’s journey. I never write the hero’s journey regardless… Again, this is the gender thing, right? Regardless of the biological sex or stated gender of my main character, they’re always heroines’ journeys because a heroine’s journey, it doesn’t matter who’s undertaking it. So I would say that is one of my things. I always do ‘found family’, and I realized recently I had this big revelation that one of the reasons I strongly gravitate to reading gay romance in particular is because found family is a really popular trope within gay romance for obvious reasons because if you come to the queer community, it’s usually partly found family that brings you there because real family rejected you, at least often did when I was younger. So yeah, and I just love that as a trope, for lack of a better word. And so I have found family in my books all the time. I tend to have extremely strong female main characters except when I’m writing gay romance, of course. Yeah, and lots of queer. I was thinking recently that a slogan I really embrace would be queer comfort because I feel like that’s kind of in all of my books even the books that have heterosexual main couples. It’s really hard. At this juncture, I guess you could say that I trust my readers enough to relax and just write what moves me. I wouldn’t have written this book if I didn’t think at least some of them would enjoy it. I mean, what a privilege and kind of a blessing and a joy to get to do that. But it has been 10 years. So it did take a while. Jeff: And you mentioned that you’re not known for mystery, certainly. So you’ve taken this turn now to at least explore it once. Are there other things out there like, going after and trying to write a mystery, that are still things you want to do, things you’re looking at towards the future? Gail: Absolutely. There’s always… Like I adore high fantasy. Obviously, I’m really into world building. And so like I have a young adult high fantasy. It’s actually techno fantasy, kind of like the Pern books or “Darkover.” And so, you know, I’d like to do that. There’s a bunch of stuff that I kind of am excited and interested, and I’m a pretty voracious and pretty wide reader. So I think that makes you, generally speaking, a relatively wide writer. I think it’s unlikely I would ever break the trust contract that I have with my reader base and write anything dark. I certainly would never write anything gritty or gruesome. I don’t like to read that, so I’d never write it. And I think I’m out of my dark phase now that I have left high school. I don’t do the really kind of dark or angsty stuff. I was thinking about contemporary recently actually. And I don’t think I could write contemporary. The moment I start to think about writing something that’s just a contemporary romance or like women’s lit or even something, you know, Heaven forfend, like proper lit fic, it immediately just goes fantastical. I can’t, I have to inject. And if I were to describe myself as anything, it is, you know, science fiction and fantasy rooted, I like the world building a lot. And so I think it’s unlikely that I’ll ever write something that doesn’t have at least that as part of the component. Jeff: So how did you go from studying archaeology and getting these degrees to now becoming full-time author, writing all these books? What was that path? Gail: Oh my goodness. So I’ve two master’s degrees and I was working on my PhD and I always thought I would be an academic. I genuinely love archaeology. I’m one of those incredibly lucky people who left one career that she adored for another career that she adored. So, you know, tragedy of choice. And I was about to do my defense and I was about two years out which would have been my thesis years finishing my PhD. And I always wrote. I just grew up on what essentially amounted to kind of like a hippie commune kind of thing, and surrounded by artists. And the only thing I had learned really from that is that artists never make any money. And so being an author was really a bad idea. So I was like, “Okay, I’ll be an academic because, ooh, profitable.” At least it’s quasi reliable, right? But I always wrote, I just had that need. It’s kind of like breathing or something. And I figure if I write, I might as well submit. And so I was submitting, writing and submitting. And then I wrote “Soulless” as kind of a challenge to myself. I’m a bit of a perfectionist. I have a propensity for rewriting things over and over and over a million times and never actually finishing anything. And so “Soulless” was like, “You will take six months, you will write this weird book.” This was during the paranormal romance and urban fantasy bubble of the late ’90s, early 2000s. And I was like, what I really want from…I want a bunch of things, right? I want women to write funny stuff in genre, commercial genre. And that’s pretty rare. Most of the writers I knew who wrote funny stuff were like Terry Pratchett, Christopher Moore, Jasper Fforde, like a bunch of dudes. And I was like, “Where are my ladies writing funny? Where’s my urban fantasy set in a historical time period?” You know, I wanted all of these things and nobody was writing it. And finally I was like, “Well, that means I have to.” Jeff: Take the challenge. Gail: Take the challenge. And I really did write it as a challenge. And “Soulless” is a mashup. It tends to be what I write, obviously. I mean, I’m here talking about, you know, space, cozy mystery romance. So I obviously like mashing up things. And so “Soulless” is steampunk, urban fantasy, comedy of manners, romance. It’s a bunch of these different things. And I was like, no one will buy this because I had been in and out of the publishing industry and submitting short stories and I was like, “This…it doesn’t have a place in the market. There’s no shelf it sits on, like, no one’s gonna buy this. But I wrote it so I might as well send it out.” And I had one of those slush pile telephone calls from New York where they like…within a month somebody wanted to buy my silly little bit of fluff. And I was like, “No, you’re joking.” And so “Soulless” was a slow burn. It hit the market and it was really word of mouth. The librarians and the independent bookstores were like behind me 110%. They just loved this crazy little book. And I think it was mostly the funny, but you know, super strong heroine and, you know, like gruff, overly emotional werewolves and queer characters from the get go. And it just appealed to, you know, a kind of segment of society. So I was right about to do my defense when “Changeless,” my second book, hit the hit The New York Times and that kind of seed changed everything. It changed marketing, it changed how much money New York was willing to offer me and my partner at the time was like, “I make enough money to support us. Why don’t you see if this…why don’t you take a break from academia and see if this writing thing works?” And I did and I haven’t been back. Jeff: Well done. Ten years on. Gail: Yeah, a lot of it’s serendipity. And a lot of it is good friends. And then a lot of it was also like, I am super…I’m an archaeologist. Archaeologists are like the organizers of anthropology departments. You know, we’re logistics, we get large groups of people into foreign lands and then make them shovel dirt around, you know. We feed them and house them and blah, blah, blah. You know, we’re big on spreadsheets and organizing. So I already had that kind of part of my personality that I think not a lot of authors have. And so when I was successful, I was ready to be like, “Okay, let’s figure out how many books I can write in a year. Let’s figure out, you know, like… I like trad, but maybe this independent publishing thing is interesting. Let me go research that and experiment with that. You know, let’s try this thing.” I’ve always been like that. Even with my traditional publishers, like they would be like, “You sell really good in eBooks.” And I was like, “That’s because I have romance readers.” And they were like, “How do you feel about maybe doing this strange BookBub thing?” And I was like, “I think that’s a great idea. Why don’t we do that?” You know, it’s like I am game. So I think that has also helped is I’ve always been willing to take a risk, partly because I have a safety net. It’s like I can always go back to being an archaeologist. That’s fun too. Jeff: What’s your overall process? I mean, it sounded like, if I understood from our “The 5th Gender” discussion, it almost sounded like you did the first draft of that book at the retreat. Gail: Yeah. I work really well, it turns out, in a competitive environment. I didn’t realize, but if…I really am one of those writers who I’m social in terms of I like to sit across from somebody at a cafe and just type and just the act of having another writer or a bunch of writers around me also typing is really helpful to me. And part of it is kind of looking over and being like, “How many words have you done? Oh shoot.” And then just typing some more, you know. But yeah, so I do this one retreat every year and I know I can do 40,000 words at that retreat, which is either one novella or most of one of the G. L. books. So I usually sort of get prepared ahead of time with that preparation is writing the first 10,000 or just get…I’m an outliner, so I’ll get all the outline ready. I’ll get all the world building ready. And once I hit the ground there, I can just turn out a bunch of words and that’s great. I try to do a couple of other kind of long weekend baby retreats. I’d love to find other week-long retreats. But the style that I like is pretty rare. And the style that I like is just a bunch of writers writing and no workshops or critiques or anything. So I do that and then most of the rest of the time I am not somebody who can handle multiple projects. I learned that about myself the hard way. So I have to be working on one book and then close that book out and then move to another one. And so if it’s an independent project, what I’ll often do, so if it’s something that I’m gonna be self-publishing, I’ll often write the whole thing on a retreat or over the course of a couple of months. And then just put it to bed and then focus on incoming copy edits or a proof pass or writing a completely different project, and let it sleep if I can. I find that that marination really helps. And then I’ll go back and do a reread. And I’m a multiple editor. I think a lot of comic writers have to be because I do passes for like different kinds of comedy. So I’ll do like a word play pass and then I’ll do a sort of a slap stick pass. And then I’ll do like rule of three descriptive passes to try and get as much different kinds of humor back into a book as possible. And so, and then I have an alpha reader or two and they read before it goes either into my New York editor or off to my beta readers. And then I actually hire and use a developmental editor for my independent stuff as well probably because that tends to lean more romantic. And when I first started writing it, I didn’t really think of myself as a romance author. So I wanted to make sure that I was getting kind of the beats right for romance. So I have an editor who specializes actually in gay romance, who reads all of my romances and gives me feedback. And then it goes to beta readers for the Parasol-verse in particular because they’re like, they’re 25 books in that universe and there’s lots of crossover characters. So most of my beta readers are actually just super fans who are obsessed with the universe and have written me like either critical letters about mistakes that I made in terms of like getting character names wrong or eye colors or something. And usually I’ll be like, “You, would you be interested in being a beta reader?” Jeff: Right. Put those people to work. Gail: Exactly. I was like, “If you’re going to do this anyway, how would you like to get everything ahead of time?” And I give them lots of extra perks as well, special editions and stuff. Yeah, so it’s quite a process at this point. But my beta readers are killer. I’ve got just a team of four now and they’re really fast and great. I love them. And then I have a couple of awesome copy editors that I use and then a proof. The Parasol-verse gets a woman named Shelley Adina, who’s a fantastic steampunk author in her own right and a regency and who’s really, really good on the Victorian era. So it gets a world – like historical proofing basically. And then I have a formatter. I’m a big fan of finding people who are really good at what they do and hiring them to do it for me. Like I could change my own oil, I’m sure, but I’d really rather find a good mechanic, you know. And that’s how I feel about the book world as well. So I have a fantastic cover art designer I love working with and I just got to put my team in place and then hope that no one gets sick. Jeff: Right. That’s the key. Nobody can get sick. Not right now. Gail: Nobody get sick. Nobody can leave me. Very floored when that happens. Jeff: So you mentioned that you read a pretty broad swath of stuff. What are you reading right now that you’re loving? Gail: So I just did a reread on Amy Lane’s “A Fool and His Manny,” which because it got nominated for the RITA award and it was one of the few that did that was queer. So I had read it before, I just did a reread on that and I still love it. It’s very cute, and I love Amy. Amy’s one of the nicest human beings in the world. So that was really fun to redo. And I’m a huge fan of Mary Calmes. I don’t know how to say her last name. Jeff: You actually got it right. Gail: Did I? Jeff: You did. Gail: Oh, good. Yes. I will read… Pretty much she’s an auto buy for me. I just find…I know that there are tropes in place that…but I just find her stuff really…she’s a comfort read for me and as somebody who writes what I hope is comforting for others, like I’m always hunting for authors that give me that same sensation. One of my like constant of all things, comfort, reread rotation is Alexis Hall’s “For Real,” which is a fantastic BDSM, but it’s just like, I don’t know what, the writing is so good. And I will reread R. Cooper until the cows come home, the “Being(s) in Love Series,” which I really, really adore. So, which is an urban fantasy basically. Jeff: So you’re a podcaster also on top of all this other stuff. Gail: I am. I know. That is like completely not connected to anything, side project. Jeff: Well, I’m looking at you, I’m reading the website, getting to know kind of what I wanna ask about. I’m like, “A podcast? Wow. Okay.” And it’s about travel hacks called “The 20 Minute Delay.” How did this come about? Gail: So one of the things that happened to me in the course of this career is I went from being an archaeologist, I traveled a lot as an archaeologist, to being an author where it turns out I travel like five times as much. When I was booked, where I’m regularly, I was doing two book tours a year at least. And that was not counting all of the conventions and stuff I was doing. And a book tour is like 10 cities in 10 days. I mean, it’s crazy traveling. So I turned into a frequent traveler and I’m an organizer and I like to hack things and figure out the most efficient way to do everything possible. And I realized I was doing that with travel. And there are two things that I can talk…well, there are three things that I could talk about, books that I love, like literally until the cows come home, food that I love to eat, and travel hacks. And then I met my friend Piper. And Piper has a day job that has her traveling 80% of the time. And she has, if possible, more travel hacks than I do. I was basically like, “Piper, let’s do a podcast. It’ll just be like 20 to 30 minutes and we will just get on and we will chat about a place that we’ve been recently, and some like delicate matter of etiquette when traveling, like whether you recline your seat or not and how you deal with that,” or recently we did a really good one actually on rental cars. I don’t rent a car that often, but Piper does all the time. And she had some awesome tips for like how to get the best rental car and, you know, what apps to use and all that sort of stuff. And then we do a little gadget where we’re just like, we test a gadget, like a new neck pillow or something and then we talk about, you know, what is that little gadget thing. And sometimes it’s just like, I like the snacky bags. Like you should always have at least two plastic snacky bags with you because they just always come in useful. So sometimes it’s a gadget like that, but we have a really, really good time. And I’m a voracious podcast listener. Like when we started, I’m a fan of this show. So I figured, generally speaking, you eventually become a podcaster if you are a big fan of listening to them. Jeff: That’s probably true. And I think for any of our listeners who are, you know, thinking about, you know, their trips to GRL come October, start listening to “The 20 Minute Delay” now to get all your travel situation put together. Gail: Because Piper and I are both authors, like we don’t…we try to couch our tips as much as possible in terms of anybody can use it. But we are both women. We are women who travel alone and we are both authors. So we will tackle things like how to travel with a bunch of books, like how to fly with 50 bucks or what have you. And we also talk about like safety when you’re staying in a hotel by yourself and that sort of thing. Jeff: So what’s coming up for you next this year with the writing? We’ve got “The 5th Gender” out, what’s coming next? Gail: Next, I have the final book in my Custard Protocol series coming out, which is “Reticence.” And that’s book four of the Custard Protocol that comes out at the beginning of August. And that’s actually rounding out the series in the Parasol-verse for a little while, my steampunk universe. I’m not ruling out doing another series in that universe, but I think I’m gonna take a little break. And I’m on proposal for a new Young Adult series. So who knows? It’s traditional, so it could take forever, could suddenly happen. You never know. And then in October I have a special collector’s edition coming out from Subterranean Press called “Fan Service,” which is for my super fans, which has my 2 supernatural society novellas bundled together with an exclusive short story that’s a hardcover fit, super fancy addition that there’s only gonna be 526 of those printed. And so that’s my October release. It’s so pretty. They can be very pretty covers, Subterranean. Jeff: That’s cool. And what’s the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they can keep track of all this? Gail: Well, in addition to everything else, so in case anybody’s in any doubt, I kind of have no life. I just did…this is like what I…like, I listen to podcasts, I read, and I play online, and occasionally I write, you know, because that’s my job. So I am on all the things online. I genuinely like social media. I know. I know, it’s crazy, but you can pretty much find me on any platform that you like. If you google Gail Carriger and then the name of the platform, I will probably pop up. And I try to use the platform in the way that it’s best suited. So, you know, there are pretty pictures on Instagram and there are lots of pinned gorgeous dresses on Pinterest and historical dresses and crazy aliens. And then I also have a newsletter. The newsletter is definitely for super fans. So it’s very chatty and it’s full of like sneak peeks as to what I’m actually writing and not talking about online yet. And I do freebies and giveaways and stuff there. Jeff: We’re going to link to all that good stuff in the show notes, of course, so people can find it easily. Gail, thanks so much for hanging out. It has been so much fun. Gail: Oh, it’s been a real pleasure. I can’t say how delighted I am to be on and I can’t wait to listen to this from the other side.

Jeff talks about the upcoming release of Netminder (Codename: Winger #4) and a blog post he’s written that talks about the impact the series has had on one reader. The guys also talk about the FX series Fosse/Verdon. Jeff reviews With A Kick Collection #2 by Clare London with narration by Joel Leslie and The Whispers by Greg Howard with narration by Kivlighan de Montebello. Will reviews American Fairytale by Adriana Herrera. Jeff & Will interview Adriana about the Dreamers series, including the soon to be released American Fairytale. Adriana also discusses the food that goes into her books, writing diverse characters, how her job as a social worker plays into American Fairytale and what’s coming up next in the Dreamer series. Complete shownotes for episode 188 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: With A Kick Collection #2 by Clare London, narrated by Joel Leslie. Reviewed by Jeff.Back in episode 144 I reviewed the audiobook of the first With A Kick collection. Now with collection two, once again the writing of Clare London combines with the narration of Joel Leslie to make a super awesome experience. We’ve got two stories in this collection–Pluck and Play and Double Scoop. In Pluck and Play delivery person Curtis is saved from a homophobic attack by cowboy/singer Riley. It’s an interesting meet cute since moments after Riley dispatches the attacker, he and Curtis fall into some delightful banter. Once they meet, they continually run into each other. Riley occasionally performs on the sidewalk across the street from the With A Kick ice cream shop, which is where Curtis often makes deliveries and hangs out with his friends who run the shop. The difficulty for Curtis and Riley–and I love how Clare handles this–is that they have to decide if the thing between them is just a one-off bit of fun or something more. Riley’s supposed to go back to the States eventually, plus he’s got issues going on with his family. Meanwhile, Curtis is hesitant to let anyone get close to him again after his last relationship was so disastrous. Clare does a wonderful job of finding the moments of tenderness for Curtis and Riley while also dealing with their troubles. I think I’ve developed a thing recently for the bodyguard trope. Riley has a protector streak that I loved so so much. As soon as he finds out what Curtis’s ex is up to, he wants to put a stop to it. The same can be said to for Curtis because he wants to help Riley deal with his family. It’s so clear these two are meant to be together and once they figure how to get out of their own way–and take care of their pasts–to get their happily ever after to they are golden. With Double Scoop, Clare has written my favorite of the With A Kick stories. This one centers on shop owners Patrick and Lee. As the story opens an explosion rocks the shop, injuring Lee and leaving Patrick in a fit of concern for his friend and their business. These two have had an ongoing business and flirty relationship through the series and now they get their moment in the spotlight. Patrick, as the slightly older one, can’t imagine why the younger Lee would be interested in him. He doesn’t feel particularly accomplished, despite the business, or particularly attractive. Lee, however, knows exactly what he wants and keeps going for it even though Patrick doesn’t make easy for Lee to get and stay close. Clare toys with them and the reader in the most delicious way–bringing them together and then causing a rift. It made for a fun yet tense read going back and forth. Luckily the amazing cast of characters that Claire has developed over the series come together to help get the shop reopen and bring the two men together. Their friends know what’s best for them even if they can’t figure out how to make it work. Both With A Kick collections are great for sexy short romances that have the best happily ever afters. You can’t go wrong picking it up on audio either. Joel Leslie does a tremendous job with a large cast of characters, particularly in Double Scoop since almost everyone who’s appeared in the series shows up here. Joel deserves a special shout out for Riley, who is the only American accent and it’s a southern one too. I enjoyed listening to him go back and forth between Curtis’s British and Riley’s southern. So if you’re looking for some fun reads, that will surely make you want some ice cream this summer, pickup With A Kick Collection #2 by Clare London … and grab the first one too if you haven’t already. The Whispers by Greg Howard. Narrated by Kivlighan de Montebello. Reviewed by Jeff.This was a quite an unexpected middle-grade gem that often surprised me with the depths it explored. I’ll caution as I get into this that the end packs a lot of emotional punch and some readers may want to tread lightly on this young man’s journey because it’s heartbreaking while it does conclude in a very satisfying and fulfilling place. Eleven-year-old Riley is missing his mama. She’s been gone for a few months and Riley doesn’t know why. He’s one of the last to see her and he meets regularly with a police detective to try to fill in pieces of what he knows. However, he gets frustrated with the speed the case is moving. He remembers the story his mama used to tell him about the whispers, little blue fairies who live out in the woods. He can’t help but wonder if the whispers might be the key to getting her back. What I loved so much about this book is how strong Greg made Riley’s narrative, keeping true to how an eleven-year-old might perceive the world. Riley already knows that he’s gay. He refers to that is one of his “conditions” that he has to keep secret, and this is not his only one. He also crushes on Dylan who he refers to as the redneck superhero. Dylan’s in eighth grade and he keeps up his superhero status by actually acknowledging Riley, and occasionally defending him against the school bully. Riley convinces his best friend Gary to go on an adventure in the woods to find The Whispers. Again, this trip reveals so much about Riley as he has to deal with a hobgoblin (or was it), the fact that Dylan may not be a superhero (or maybe he is) and the consequences of saying the wrong thing to your friend all the while trying to do the right thing so The Whispers will help him. One of the extraordinary characters in this book is Tucker the dog. Tucker is Riley’s faithful companion, always at the boy’s side to nudge him in the right direction and keep him safe. The dog has an amazing personality that shines through Riley’s narrative. I don’t think I’ve ever read a dog on a page quite like Tucker and I absolutely loved it. It’s a credit to Greg that he had me so invested in Riley that I didn’t try too hard to piece together what was happening. As the plot hurtled toward its conclusion I was constantly surprised and pivoted between sadness and happiness as the revelations came fast and furious. Kudos to Kivlighan as well for capturing Riley so perfectly. It was a very satisfying audiobook experience. This was my first Greg Howard book and I’ll definitely check out his other titles. I do very much recommend The Whispers if you’re looking for a superb read featuring an eleven-year-old who is going through a lot but comes out stronger and wiser on the other side. American Fairytale by Adriana Herrera. Reviewed by Will.When Camilo, a NYC social worker, goes to an absurdly swanky charity event that his boss can’t attend, he’s intent on enjoying the special evening, which includes chatting up the hottie he meets at the bar. After a few drinks and some suggestively flirty banter, he and Mr. hot stuff find a dark corner and make the night truly memorable. The next morning, Camilo’s boss introduces him to Tom, the millionaire who’ll be financing their agency’s major renovation project. Tom also happens to be Camilo’s hot charity gala hook-up from the night before. Aware how awkward the situation is, Tom agrees to keep things strictly professional from now on, but also asks that Milo be the point man on the project, keeping him up-to-date on the renovations. Their weekly meetings begin to look more and more like dates – a meal at a fancy restaurant, a walk through the botanical gardens. Camilo is no fool, but as he gets to know Tom better – he’s certainly not your average philanthropic millionaire, there is more than meets the eye – the pretense of “keeping things professional” begins to hold less and less appeal. When they can no longer deny the attraction, Tom takes Milo back to his place. The sex is amazing (of course), but the afterglow is short-lived when Tom’s ex drops buy with their daughter. Tom shares custody of Libertad, his daughter, with his former husband. Learning of all of this (which Tom failed to mention up until that point) briefly throws Milo for a loop, but it’s hard to resist the precocious the little girl, and Milo falls even harder for the millionaire and his ready-made family. A situation with Milo’s mom has him taking on more work and financial responsibility and, in addition to that, he’s working overtime as the massive renovation project is wrapping up. He’s stretched almost to the breaking point. When Tom offers to help, the fiercely independent Milo insists he has it all under control. Tom quietly takes care of things. It’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission, right? In this case, no. Camilo is furious. As a reader, it’s hard not to feel frustrated by Milo’s stubborn streak. Your boyfriend is a millionaire for god’s sake! Get over yourself! But it eventually becomes clear that Milo is, of course, right. Tom’s intervention robbed Milo of his own autonomy. It’s Milo’s choice whether or not to ask for help – no one else’s. This is a deal-breaker for Milo and it causes a major rift in their relationship. Tom has to find a way to fix things, by doing the hard work and not using his money to solve their problems. This is a romance, so Tom figures things out, and pulls off a grand gesture that is less grand, and more heartfelt and considerately thoughtful – which is exactly what Milo needed. It all wraps up with swoon-worthy family vacation to the Dominican Republic. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome, Adriana to the show. Thanks for being with us. Adriana: Thank you for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this for weeks. Jeff: So have we, to be honest, since we’ve read “American Dreamer” that we loved so much. So, a good first question is, what was the inspiration behind the “Dreamer” series? Adriana: So, basically, I think I wanted to write Afro-Latinx characters. I’ve said this in a couple of other conversations I’ve had about the book. It was really a specific time, a couple of years ago, right after the election when there was just a lot of negative conversation around the place of immigrants in the U.S. And I just really felt compelled to write a story that I felt can honor my identity which is Afro-Latinx, and the Afro-Latinx immigrant experience. And I think representation has also been an issue for me, with romance specifically. There are stories of people of color in gay romance, but I felt like they were either really surface characters or there was like a real, like, toil story. You know, the person had to go through every kind of horrific thing. So, I wanted to write something that could be nuanced and also show the joyfulness and the beauty of being a person that’s Afro-Latinx and all the amazing things that we come with. So, that was kind of where I was coming from. And I also really, really wanted a book literally full of…just like the gayest, most black and brown book I could write. Jeff: That should almost be a quote on the cover. Will: That’s funny. Adriana: Yeah. I wanted it to be super gay, super black, super brown. Jeff: So, right before we did this interview, Will raved about “Fairytale.” Tell us, in your own words, what that story is about, and kind of how it falls in the series. Adriana: So, it’s the second book in the “Dreamer” series and it’s set in New York City, which is different from “Dreamer” which is set in Ithaca. And it’s about Camilo Briggs who’s one of the best friends of Nesto from the first book. And he’s a Cuban-Jamaican social worker. And he works in the domestic violence field, which is the same field that I work in. And he meets this, like, very hot stranger at a gala and he turns out to be a big donor for the agency that he works for, that Camilo works for. And Tom is an interesting character because he’s a billionaire, which we love in our romances, but he’s also Dominican and white-passing, which is something that I really wanted to explore in a book. What it means to be Latinx but also kind of have the privilege of presenting as a white person, and what that means, and how hard that is to navigate. So, I guess, it’s about… It’s a fairytale, it’s a modern-day fairytale but it’s also, again, like a different side to the Latinx experience. And it’s sweet and fun, and cute and sexy. Will: Yeah, it definitely is. First, before we get to the next question, I want to commend you on the sort of…what I found really enjoyable about not only “American Dreamer” but “American Fairytale” as well is the group of friends, the sense of found family that comes across really strong in this series. I think it’s exceptionally well done. And especially in that first book because, like, right at the beginning, from the get-go, you introduce this, frankly, a really large cast of characters. And I think, with a lesser author, that could frankly get confusing. I know when I read a book, I get confused easily if there are five, six, seven people, you know, names and personalities all thrown at you at once. But each of your characters, each of the friends in that group are so clearly delineated and…especially in that first book, in the opening scene, you give us the briefest glimpses of who they are, and we understand right away where they kind of fit in the group of friends. And of course, they’re all wonderful, and interesting, and funny. They give each other shit like good friends do. I love this group of guys so much. Adriana: Thank you. I have to admit, they’re not my friends, but those four guys are very inspired on my, like, really core group of friends in my early 20s in the DR…when I was still in Dominican Republic. My core group of friends were mostly gay men because my cousin, who’s like my brother, who’s 14 months older than I, is gay. We kind of just like started hanging out with this group of, like, queer kids in the DR. Which in the ’90s was kind of an interesting crowd to be in just because it wasn’t really okay to be openly gay. And we had so much fun. And we did so much, like, crazy stuff together. And I just kind of really wanted to kind of like write a love letter to those friendships and those years. And a lot of them ended up coming to the States at the same time I did, in my early 20s. So, I think they feel so real because they are, like, real. Jeff: These books are getting so much praise. What do you think is resonating with the readers? Adriana: I think people are more open now, or I think there were always those that were open to reading about those different experiences. But I think there’s a particular appetite now for reading more characters that are bringing with them a different lived experience. And I think that might be part of it, like why people are interested in the story. And I think everybody can connect to a striving story, you know. I think Nesto, and Jude, and Camilo, Patrice, Juan Pablo, all of them, they’re just striving to be who they know they deserve to be – for the lives that they’re working for. And I think everyone can relate to that and that struggle of fighting for what you want. Jeff: Did you also intend to make everybody hungry with “American Dreamer?” Adriana: Yes. Yes. Jeff: Was that part of, like, your side plot? Adriana: Yes. Yes, I did. I wanted because…also that’s the other piece, like Caribbean food is very similar but very different in many ways. And I talk about that a lot in “Dreamer.” And it’s the…I wanted to just show people, like, all the different flavors and how we’re all connected. So, I think it’s something that doesn’t really get talked about as much, the wide variety of our flavors. So, I did intentionally want people to be very interested in Caribbean food. I wanted people to Google Dominican restaurants and it sounds like I succeeded. Jeff: I think you did, yeah. I haven’t gotten into “Fairytale” yet. Is there food there also or do we break away from the food a little bit? Will: A little bit. Jeff: A little bit. Adriana: Yeah, a little bit. It’s not as much food. It’s more of…I feel like “Fairytale” is more about, like, Harlem and The Bronx. I have a lot of places in Harlem and The Bronx because again, there are a lot of romances set in New York City. Not many of them are set in Harlem and The Bronx. So, I wanted to go to the places where…like, the diaspora that I belong to, came to. So, I think that’s more… I’m hoping people Google places to go in The Bronx and Harlem with this one. Will: That is a good goal to have, most definitely. Now, with this group of characters, they come from a lot of different backgrounds, what is your process for basically ensuring accurate representation? Is it all from your own personal experience or something else? Adriana: Yeah. So far in this series…and I’m sure that as I write more, then I’m gonna have to go outside of that, but so far in this series, I’ve really gone with origin stories that I know of or from people that are, like, my friends or things like that, like Camilo’s mom, for example, is a Marielita, which was a specific group of Cuban refugees that came at a specific time to the U.S.. And I kind of touched upon that because that’s a very important influx of immigrants that came at a specific time. And they’re all particular experiences that I have been connected to through my friends or family. But I do think writing diaspora is something that people need to be more thoughtful about. So, I try to think a lot about like when did this person come, how did they come, what was the political situation in the U.S. at that time, how they would’ve been received. Like, with Patrice, you know, he’s Haitian and he’s black. His experience and the way he was received would be different than, for example, Camilo’s mom who came as a Cuban refugee and had protected status as she came in to the U.S. So, it’s very…like, there’s nuances there in the context that really needs to be thought about because it really impacts how the person can integrate into American life. Will: And speaking of writing from experience, you have a job in social work and advocacy, did you use your own personal experience when writing about Camilo’s work? Adriana: Yes. So, Camilo’s work and my work…I mean, I really drew from what I do every day to kind of build Camilo’s agency. I mean, kind of like my wish list almost. I wish we could have a guy that just wants to drop $2 million on my agency and tell us, “Do whatever you want with it.” So, I think it was like my fantasy of what it would be like to be in an agency that is just being well-funded, and, like, resources are just there to do the work. So, I think it’s like my own fairytale of what it would be like to work, and just have a millionaire just drop money on us. But, yes, it’s very, very connected to my own work and kind of like my philosophy around the domestic violence field and how the work should go. Jeff: I like how you set the books in our extremely modern times too. And I think in “American Dreamer” as Nesto faces the discrimination of the, who I like to call the evil woman, how he deals with it because I think that it tells a story that not everybody necessarily thinks about all the time. Adriana: Yeah. And I really wanted to contrast, even in the book like Jude’s own reactions to the racism and the obvious discrimination and sabotaging and Nesto’s reactions to it, and the reality that there are different consequences for some people than to others. And that that’s a reality you kind of just have to work with. Jeff: And I loved how he dealt with it too, taking that high road. I just like, “Go, Nesto.” Adriana: Right. I mean, it’s a reality, like, it could have a consequence that was like very, very difficult for him. So, he couldn’t just like get into a thing with this lady. Jeff: Right. “American Dreamer” was your first book. How did you come into writing romance and specifically MM romance? Adriana: So, I’ve been toying with the idea of writing an MM romance for a long time. I’ve been a MM romance reader for, like, a long time. I was at the first GRL (Gay Rom Lit Retreat). I’m like an OG of MM romance. But I was a lot more involved in the community, and then kind of stepped back. I got busy and I just kind of kept reading, but I had it in the back of my mind. I find that what MM romance brought to my life, in terms of dynamics and relationships, and seeing…like I said, having friends all my life that were gay men, and me being so close to so many men who were like looking to fall in love and not being able to see love stories. I remember when I started reading LGBT books, they were very, like, sad, very sad stories like in the ’90s, right? I mean, I grew up in the ’90s. And so just finding your romance was something that was so incredibly wonderful for me. And I thought, “Wouldn’t it be even more wonderful if I could actually find my particular experience and the particular experience of the people who I love in those books?” So, it was kind of like a combination of going to a place…like the type of story that had been really meaningful to me, and then kind of putting my own experience into the space. Jeff: What was it like to write the first book after having read so many? Was it kind of an easy process or was it crazy and hard and took years or…? Adriana: So, it didn’t take me that long, if I’m honest, but I had been thinking about it for a long time. So, before I actually started writing, I kind of did a whole year of reading a lot of craft books, and going to workshops, and trying things. And I actually started a book set in Ethiopia, which is also a gay romance. And I got through a third of that and I was like, “I cannot write this book. I am not equipped to write a gay romance in Ethiopia right now.” And I decided I wanna do this story, this “Dreamer” story. And then that’s when I started it. But it was like a year and a half before I actually felt brave enough to actually write it. Yes. Jeff: I’m so glad that you found that bravery. Who would you say your author influences are? You say you’ve read, you know, MM forever even before it was truly MM, back in the sadder days? Adriana: Yeah. I have a lot of authors that…I mean, I’ve loved a lot of authors from the beginning that I think, I don’t know if I emulate, but I think about a lot in their…kind of how they render a story. Like K.J. Charles, I think, is a wonderful author. I think she just does things that are like phenomenal in writing. E. Lynn Harris was probably the first queer romance that I ever read. I think it’s really sad that he’s not, like, in the canon of what we talk about when we talk about queer romance. So, yeah, but I mean there’s a lot of writers I like. Amy Lane’s early work was super significant for me. I thought her…some of her early books are really some of my all-time favorites. So, yeah, there’s a lot of authors that I kind of go back to and read just to kind of be inspired by the way that they render a story. Does that make sense? Jeff: But what is it about those books that resonated for you so much? Adriana: I think…well, first of all, it was they felt familiar in a way that was like a discovery almost, because I didn’t really ever know any people…a black man who was really exploring the falling in love and the feelings, and the struggle, and the conflicts of trying to make yourself happy, and to find the love that you have…to keep the love that you’ve discovered, right? So, I think his (E. Lynn Harris’) books thought were just so beautifully written, and so tender, and so heartbreaking. It was just wonderful. I think being raised in Dominican Republic where there’s, toxic masculinity on steroids, like, the tenderness of his books really was something that I hadn’t read before. I think it just was kind of like eye-opening to me. Will: Now, so far in your “Dreamer” series, we’ve had Nesto and Jude’s story, and Camilo and Tom’s story. There is, of course…thank God, there’s going to be a third book. Whose story are we gonna get in that one and what can you tell us about that one? Adriana: So, it’s Patrice’s book. Patrice is Nesto’s friend who is a Haitian-American man, who’s a professor. It’s set in Ithaca. He conveniently gets a job at Cornell in the economics department and moves to Ithaca. And he reconnects with Easton Archer who is a character that we meet in “Dreamer” who’s a prosecutor, an assistant district attorney in Ithaca. And Easton is white, so it’s an interracial romance. Yeah. Jeff: When does that one come out? Adriana: That one comes out in October. I just saw a proof for the cover last week…or no, earlier this week, and it is so nice. I love it. I think it’s my favorite one, and I really love the covers for both books so far. I’m calling it my Black Lives Matter romance, although it’s not super intense, but it’s definitely…like the conflict between Patrice and Easton is definitely revolving around kind of having to navigate both of, like, their positions in life. Will: We got a brief glimpse of Patrice and Easton, like you mentioned in that first book. And then in “American Fairytale,” there was a scene with all of the friends together and Patrice sort of like phones in on Skype while they’re, like, dishing about Camilo’s love life, which was very, very funny. So, I’m genuinely looking forward to Patrice’s story. I think it’s gonna be amazing. I can’t wait. Adriana: I know. I’ve been revising it, like I said, and I think it’s a sweet story. And then, there’s a little bit more of two characters that people have been curious about. Ari and Jin, who are employees of Nesto, and they are in their little tiny young person romance. So, they’re like a little cute element for a love story. It’s called “American Love Story.” It’s the title of Patrice’s story. Jeff: Cool. And then you mentioned before we started actually recording the interview that you’re writing the fourth book right now. Any teasers on that? Adriana: So, that one is not an MM. It’s an MF, actually. It’s Juan Pablo’s story. And Juan Pablo is…it’s like a, I’d say, a second chances story. And the heroine is Priscilla who is Nesto’s cousin, who’s a police officer. And it’s called “American Sweethearts.” So, the book starts with a wedding in the Dominican Republic, but I’m not gonna say whose. Jeff: Oh, such a tease. Will: Oh, man. Adriana: Yeah. I’ll tease a little more when I have…I feel like I can’t tease too much on this book because it’s not even halfway done yet. But right now, I’m writing the first few chapters and they’re all in this wedding in the DR. So, everybody is there. Jeff: But I do like how you…we’ve seen with some traditionally MF series where an MM book ends up in the series. And I like how you’re kind of spinning that around too, you’ve got an MM series so far and you’re putting an MF book in it just to, like, broaden that universe out. Adriana: Yeah. So, my kind of little tagline is like, I write romance full of people who look and sound like my people. And there’s a lot of my people who are gay men, like so many of them. But not all of them are. So, I wanted to, in this series at least, have one story where, you know…like both Priscilla and Juan Pablo are queer. Like, she’s pan, he’s bi. But it’s also like a different type of, you know, experience because they’re both engaging in a straight relationship, which brings in…has its own privileges in terms of how it appears. So, I also wanted to explore that a little bit. Jeff: And I think exploring the pansexuality too will be interesting because that doesn’t turn up in a lot of books, at least the ones that cross my radar. And I think it’s nice to see that representation alongside the ethic background representation that you’re bringing as well. Adriana: Yeah, yeah. And it’s something that I think it’s…because of their age, I’m trying to kind of like engage a little bit in even Priscilla arriving to a place where she’s like, “Oh, actually, I’m pan,” as opposed to like, “I thought I was bisexual,” and how she arrived at that. Because I think that’s something that, for people my age, like I’m 40, it’s something that we arrived because we didn’t even have the language for that. Like, 15, 10 years ago, we were like, “Oh, I think I’m gay.” But then it’s like, “Oh, but there’s a whole spectrum of sexuality, gender identity.” And I think there’s so much that we didn’t know – that we know now – that should be coming up in books. Jeff: It’s great that you’re leading the way to kind of get some of that out there, too. Adriana: Yeah. It’s a great time to be writing romance, I think. Jeff: So, besides the “Dreamer” books, is there anything else coming up that you’re looking to write in the coming…I’ll say years since “Dreamer” has you going for the rest of this year probably, if nothing else. Adriana: Yeah, yeah. So, I do have a couple of things that I’m working on. I’m in the process right now of getting out this…I did write the gay romance set in Ethiopia, and I’m in the process of…like, I should have some good news about it soon. And it’s a romance set in Ethiopia, and it’s a Dominican-American relief worker. I did international relief work for a long time. And I lived in Ethiopia for about five years. And so, I really wanted to write a book set in Ethiopia because I have a lot of love for Ethiopia, and my years there were very significant in my life. So, it’s a gay romance. It’s not legal to be in a same-sex relationship in Ethiopia so there are complications. And it’s a Dominican-American relief worker and a colleague who’s Ethiopian, and they fall in love. Jeff: I am so glad you finished that book. You kind of left that off back there when we were talking about it before, because that will be great to see… I have, you know, no experience in any of those spaces. So, to read a romance set there will be an adventure. Adriana: Yeah. It was wonderful to write. Like I said, I have a lot of love for that country. And I think people’s perception of it is like, you know, people starving. And there’s just so much richness and so much beauty and magic in Ethiopia, that I really wanted to just show a different face to it. And I think it’s like a really sweet romance, too. And the setting is interesting. It’s more like a new adult. They’re in their 20s. Jeff: Do you think it will be out this year, maybe? Adriana: I don’t know of this year, but definitely early next year. Like, for sure early next year, yeah. Will: Very cool. Fantastic. Definitely looking forward to that. Now, you’ve given us a lot of amazing information about all of your amazing books, but if our listeners want to learn even more, where can they find out more about you and your books online? Adriana: So, they can go to my website, it’s adrianaherreraromance.com. I’m pretty active on Twitter, and my handle is @ladrianaherrera. And Facebook, I’m also there, Adriana Herrera. So, those are the places…and I’m on Instagram but not as much. Jeff: Very cool. We will link to all of that, plus all the books in our show notes so that folks can easily click on that stuff to find you. Adriana, thank you so, so much for being with us. It’s been awesome talking to you. Adriana: Thank you. It was so much fun and just as amazing as I thought it was gonna be to chat with you guys.

April was our most downloaded month ever. Thank you to our listeners! Jeff and Will discuss their upcoming travel schedule. They will be at the Romance Writers of America national conference, Podcast Movement, Dreamspinner’s Author Conference and GayRomLit. Jeff reviews Top Secret by Sarina Bowen & Elle Kennedy and Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston. Jeff interviews Casey about her debut novel. They talk about the inspiration for Red, White & Royal Blue and the impact the 2016 election had on the story.  In addition, they discuss the recently announced movie adaptation, what got Casey into writing romance and what she’s working on next. Complete shownotes for episode 187 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Top Secret by Sarina Bowen and Elle Kennedy. Reviewed by Jeff. I’ve been a huge fan of Sarina Bowen’s for some years now. Her Understatement of the Year is among my favorite books of all time and I also love Him and Us which were co-written with Elle Kennedy. Sarina and Elle are back with their first m/m romance in three years with Top Secret. They’ve written an extremely satisfying enemies to lovers romance that sizzles but also has some extremely sweet parts as well. Keaton’s a college junior from a privileged family whose been with his girlfriend since high school. For her birthday, she announces that she wants a threesome. After brief thought Keaton agrees. He lives in a frat house where one of his frat brothers is Luke. Luke basically keeps to himself barely gets along with anyone in the house. Luke’s a townie, going to school on an academic scholarship and as a despicable mom and older brother who only want to take advantage of him. He lives in the frat because it’s cheaper than a dorm and he’s running for president because that means free room. Keaton looks to an app to help find the right guy for this birthday present. He signs in as LobsterShorts and soon ends up talking to SinnerThree. Once SinnerThree finds out it’s Keaton’s first three way, he wants to make sure Keaton would be cool with him in the mix and to start considering what the rules would be. SinnerThree even gives sexy homework. This gets Keaton thinking because he’s buried his feelings about guys for a long time. Of course, SinnerThree is Luke, who lives right across the hall. What makes this book work so extraordinarily well is the two sides of Luke and Keaton we see between their public personas and their chats on the app. Luke wants to escape the town and the life he’s known growing up. He strives to excel in school so he can get the high-paying job and never be reliant on anybody again. Meanwhile, Keaton knows he’s got all the privilege but he also chafes at the expectations that his family and friends put on him and he keeps all that to himself because it’s what he’s supposed to do. When they’re chatting as SinnerThree and LobsterShorts the conversation occasionally drifts from figuring out what Keaton’s boundaries actually are to discussing their realities and what they want out of life. Their emotional shields fall away. The way Sarina and Elle transition from sexy to sweet and back again is perfect. Of course, the night finally comes and Keaton and Luke find out they’ve been talking for weeks. The night doesn’t go as planned, but they don’t stop exploring their sexual feelings or sharing closely guarded secrets. Both guys have great growth as Keaton comes into his own, embracing his true sexuality and the career he wants after college. I’m particularly happy this wasn’t a gay-for-you story but rather about a young man figuring out who he is. The battle for Luke is about his sexuality at all–he’s proudly bisexual. He can’t fathom that anyone could love him because of his terrible family. He’s been so battered by them, that he’s hesitant to accept help from anyone because it would surely come with strings. Thankfully, even though Keaton bungles quite a few things with Luke, he also works to make it right. It’s a credit to Sarina and Elle that they have created such fully fleshed out characters who evolve so much through the story. I was invested in so much more than the romance because I wanted these guys to find their way too. The motley crew of frat brothers also brought some great depth to the story as they were a mix of those who were genuinely kind and others were douchey. The parents were also an interesting contrast between Luke’s trailer trash and Keaton’s very well-to-do. Keaton’s father and mother are far more than meets the eye too. I don’t want to get into spoiler territory, but I have to call out them out too. It’s an example of Sarina and Elle creating multi-dimensional characters. Another extraordinary part of the story for me was how the black moment played out. A lot of stuff goes down and there were plenty of opportunities to cheapen the story. The way the last twenty percent of the book played was perfect even while it provided me with quite a few moments of stress. We’re headed into summer and this book is perfect for vacation reading. I highly recommend Top Secret by Sarina Bowen and Elle Kennedy. Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston. Reviewed by Jeff I knew this book would be exactly right for me. I have a thing for the royal trope and the idea of an American first son and a British prince getting together made this a must read. What I didn’t expect was how Casey McQuiston elevated the material putting this enemies to lovers romance on the list of my all time favorites. Alex Claremont-Diaz is the first son. Henry is the prince. They have secretly crushed on each other for years. They developed an enemies vibe at the Rio Olympics when they had a less than good encounter, especially from Alex’s point of view. Move forward to today and a near international incident set off by the two at a royal wedding. As part of PR disaster control, a story is created that Henry and Alex are actually the best of friends. After some forced outings to appease the press they start talking to each other more and get past their public personas. One of the things that makes this story works so well is Casey has created an alternate history that many of us would like to see. Claremont took office from Obama so the Trump nightmare never happened. And it’s wonderful that her son is Mexican-American given the current hate filled climate around immigrants. There’s even a couple of lines in the book about how it’s not lost on Alex that there are some people who hate that a Mexican-American took the job of first son. Alex and Henry talk a lot about the lives they want. They’re both expected to meet family obligations and be leaders for their countries–it’s not really what they want though. The texts, emails and phone calls as Alex and Henry reveal more and more of themselves are absolutely priceless. At times funny and others heartbreakingly honest, they talk about how they feel trapped. As the first sparks of romance blossom between them their enemy side is quite fiery as they have rage filled kisses before succumbing to the fact that this is something that they both desperately want. The back-and-forth between sweet romance and the slightly angry romance enhanced the story as they fight against their feelings. The reality stays firmly rooted throughout the story and I loved that. Sometimes the royal trope, as much as I enjoy it, is far more fantasy than reality. It’s part of what makes the trope so good–that chancea prince might be your neighbor. This world could exist–a prince and a member of the first family. Casey gives them all the trappings, including secret rendezvous’s that are partially orchestrated by their security teams. Of course, as must happen the romance is horribly revealed and damages them both. The guys had to really work for the happy in this book, which makes the ending so sweetly satisfying. There were a lot of ways the end could’ve played out, but I can’t imagine one that would’ve been more perfect than what Casey gives us. I haven’t felt as overall thrilled by a book as I have by Red White & Royal Blue in quite some time. It reminded me of reading Becky Albertalli’s Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda and the wonder of such rich, vivid characters in a charming story that deserves to be real. Casey captured not only an America that I desperately want to live in but a romance that was everything that I ever wanted. I could gush on and on about this book, and will more in the upcoming interview. For now I’ll leave this by saying that I beyond highly recommend Casey McQuiston’s Red White & Royal Blue. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Casey, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Casey: Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited. Jeff: So, before we got to this segment, I spent a ton of time just going over “Red, White & Royal Blue” as being one of the best things I’ve read this year and one of my top books maybe in the “ever” category because it’s everything I needed in a romance with the prince trope and essentially royalty in the U.S. with the first son. And, I mean, Alex and Henry are so awesome. Tell us what your inspiration was behind this book? Casey: Yeah. So I first started…actually, it’s weird. A couple of days ago, I was going through my Timehop which shows you, you know, what you tweeted two, three, four years ago, and I realized that, a few days ago, which is April 13th, was the day that I tweeted, “Hey, I just had this idea for a book.” And it took me back to that moment of the exact lightning strike moment when I knew what I wanted to write. And this is a question we’ll get into later, but it was one of many attempts at a book I had started and none of them had really taken hold of me like this one did. So it was early 2016, I was obsessively following the presidential election, which, you know, we all were at the time with a lot of optimism. And, at the same time, I was reading two books. I was reading “The Royal We,” which is by Heather Morgan and Jessica Cocks, and it’s basically almost a novelization of Will and Kate with a bunch of different things changed about it. So I was reading that. And I was also reading a super dry Carl Bernstein Hillary Clinton biography, which was a fun little juxtaposition. And I had this idea in my head of I want to do… I’ve seen so many sub-versions of prince charming trope, but I feel, as a queer person, I’ve never seen one that seems the most obvious to me, which is, you know, what if, he wasn’t the perfect, going to produce a million heirs, prince, you know. And then on the other side, I was I loved “Chasing Liberty” when I was growing up and “My Date with the President’s Daughter” and I was really into the idea of a rom-com starring this rebellious first kid, and I couldn’t decide which one I wanted to do first, and I was like, “Wait a minute. If I put them both in the same story, I don’t have to pick.” So, honestly, it was me being indecisive that led to that decision. And on a wider scale, a bigger scope, I just really was looking for the perfect, fun escapist tropey rom-com that was so undeniably fun that the fact that it was also queer wouldn’t keep it out of the mainstream, you know, because a big thing that I want to do as an author and as a queer person is push those stories into the mainstream and be like, hey, you know, it’s kind of what they say in “Love, Simon,” everybody deserves to have a great love story, you know. And so everybody deserves to have a big shiny tropey, fun rom-com, you know. So, yeah, that was kind of where it came from for me. Jeff: And there is so much rom-com-y goodness floating in this book. I think you pulled a little bit from everything. Without giving spoilers, because there could be some depending on what you pick for this, what are the rom-com moments that just sticks out for you as one of your favorites among all of them? Casey: Wow, that’s a good question. I have pulled so many tropes from so many of my different favorite rom-coms. But there is this one thing that I love in every rom-com which is the gratuitous karaoke moment, which is actually if you ever watch “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend,” it’s a song on “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” like “Shake Me Up.” Okay, yeah, that. So it’s like “27 Dresses” does it, and “10 Things I Hate About You” does it where it’s like somebody gets up and sings a song in front of a bunch people for no reason. And it’s like, “No, this doesn’t happen in real life, but it’s super fun.” And so writing the whole karaoke scene, which I don’t think is a spoiler, that was so much fun for me because I was, you know, as musical theater kid in high school, we all were, and so I got to be so indulgent with that, and it was such a blast. I loved it. Jeff: I think you picked a great one right there because you’re right, there is that moment. There’s even that movie, which of course I’m blanking out on right now, that was like…it was a Rebel Wilson movie earlier, I think this year, that she’s, like, there’s always the karaoke moment that she ends up trapped in the karaoke moment in her own little thing. Casey: I love the karaoke moment. Jeff: That says a lot about people, the songs they pick. Casey: It does. It’s character shorthand for sure. Yeah. Like when Bea gets up and sings “Call Me” by Blondie in the book I’m like, “This is what she’s about, you know.” Jeff: Yeah. There have been so many accolades on this book before it even got published. I mean, we were reading about it, I think in “Blush” almost two months ago now. What’s resonating so much with all these pre-readers? Casey: God, you know, I mean, just to start off, I’ve been, completely blown away by the response to it. When I wrote this book I was like, “This is so niche.” It’s a queer political rom-com with royal elements. And also we talk about gerrymandering in it, and I was like, “This is so niche,” no one’s gonna care, no one’s going to publish it. I was like, “I’m going to try and query this for a month, and then I’m just going to self-pub,” you know. And the fact that people have engaged with it so much and that it has gotten, I think three-star reviews now which is just blowing my mind completely, so beyond grateful for those. It’s just been so staggering and incredible. But, I don’t know, I think that right now the world is really depressing. We live in a world right now that is at times literally on fire, you know. And it is so important to have these little oases or moments of respite and little escapist things because when I first started writing this book, I’m so neck deep in the news cycle and I really couldn’t finish it until I pulled out of it because I realized that wasn’t what it needed to be. It didn’t need to be mired in all of the negativity and all of the darkness that was going on in the world. It needed to be this spark of hope, you know, that would kind of feel… I think about when Obama won re-election in 2012, and I was with my friends. I was in college at the time and we went out on the balcony, and popped a bottle of $60 French champagne, and I think about how I felt in that moment and I was like, “I want this book to feel like that moment,” you know. And I think that a lot of people have been missing that feeling. I think that we have so few things, especially when we look at the political sphere right now, to be excited about and to be hopeful about. And I think that we’re all just nostalgic almost for when we had hope. And I think that what this book does is it lives in the space of being here and now and still having hope, you know, and I think that’s really resonating with people. And then I also think that people are just excited to see…we’re seeing it with Helen Hoang and Jasmine Guillory who are writing romances that are integrating, you know, neurodiverse characters and just racially diverse characters. I think a lot of people are tired of seeing, you know, the same two straight white cisgender, neurotypical people falling in love, you know. And so I think that people are hungry for something that’s different in rom-com that can show that different types of people can have that same big, huge, escapist magical love story. So that’s kind of where I think it comes from. Jeff: You noted that you started writing this in 2016, essentially before the election happened. Do you think you would have written the same book had Hillary won? Casey: That’s a great question. And the book I had planned to write before the election went the way that it did was a different book. There were so many threads that I ended up dropping. I, at one point, had…and this was before anything about Russia had come up. I, at one, point had… a Russian double agent involved in the campaign and I was like, “This is too unrealistic. No one’s going to buy this. I’m cutting this,” you know. And now I’m like, “God…” But, yeah. I mean, it definitely…I think it would have been more lampooning the Democratic Party…not that I have anything against the Democratic Party as someone who is registered as Democrat, but it would have been more of “Veep” style, you know, that we’re all on the same side here, so we’re going to send each other up kind of thing. And instead it’s still very tongue in cheek, and it still has that “Veep” side to it, but it needed to have more of…. it needed to be less cynical, basically, you know, because I don’t think that we can really afford a lot of cynicism right now beyond what, you know, roasting the President on Twitter is cynical, I guess. But, yeah, I think that there are certain things that happen in the plot that never probably would have been explored if the results of the election had gone differently because I don’t think I would have felt as much of an urgency to put those into the story. So, yeah, it definitely would have been different. It definitely would have been a lot different. But the President was always the same. President Claremont was the same character from the moment I came up with the idea for the book. She’s like Tami Taylor, from “Friday Night Lights” meets Wendy Davis, the politician from Texas, meets a tiny bit of Selina Meyer from “Veep” and probably every strong female in my life, you know. So, yeah, long story short, yes, it would have been different.  Jeff: One of the things I like about it so much, and you touched on this a little bit, is that it’s not two white guys getting together because Alex is Mexican-American. And certainly given how things have played out under the current administration, having that element in the White House as first son, it says a lot. And Alex comments on this, you know, periodically as he’s kind of going through things and how that aspect of his heritage plays into things. Did you have that set early on or did that kind of manifest as we saw how immigrants were being treated post-election and even during the election cycle for that matter? Casey: Sure. Well, the minute…it kind of was, like, the plot itself that informed what Alex would be because, like I said, the first character I came up with was the president and everything kind of formed around her. And I’m from Louisiana, and I have this huge chip on my shoulder about democrats, and liberal people, and progressive people in red states because I was one for so long. I live in a purple-y state now. But, you know, I feel they’re so often written off and discredited, and I can probably count on one hand the number of actual presidential candidates who came and campaigned in my hometown, which is the capital of Louisiana. And people just don’t see anything worth investing in. So I wanted to do a southern Democrat. I didn’t think that a Louisiana Democrat was that realistic, so I did a Texas Democrat. And from the minute I knew she was from Texas, I was like, “Well, it would make sense for her to have married a Mexican man, or a, you know, a first or second generation Mexican man.” And it just kind of went from there where I was, like, “You know, I really do like that idea of that.” I spent so much time in Texas, I know so many people from Texas, I know so many Tejanos and people… it just made sense to me. And then, you know, the more that the rhetoric kind of got really vitriolic about Mexican immigrants around the election, I was like, “Yeah, fuck you. Actually, I am gonna put some Mexican people in the White House.” Yeah, that’s what’s gonna happen. I did as much as I could with it. Obviously, I’m white, and I did a ton of research, I talked to a ton of Mexican friends of mine, and especially Tejano first or second generation people. And then what I’m really excited about with the movie is that we have the opportunity to bring in more people on the creative side who are Latino who can offer more of that voice, that can go farther than I could go with it and that can explore more things with it. So, yeah. It just felt really natural to me, he’s from Texas, of course, he could be half Mexican. That’s just so typical there. So, yeah, it was a very natural progression of the character for me. Jeff: And in a weird twist, I’m actually interviewing you from Dallas. Casey: Yes, I know. I was just thinking about it. That’s so funny. Yeah. I feel like that’s appropriate. I feel the stars aligned to have you interview me from Texas. Jeff: And finish the book while I’m in Texas. It was kind of crazy. Casey: Yeah. That’d be so appropriate. I’m really excited because my second tour stop is in Austin, and I’m so excited. I haven’t been to Austin, like, a year or two, and it’s just feels so right to go back with this book. So I’m so excited. Jeff: There is a ton of history in this book. Henry goes into a lot of history of the monarchy. And one of the things I loved is in the emails that Alex and Henry are trading, they end up and quote a lot of literature or other letters of historical people. How much of that was in your head, and how much was “I need to go off and do a ton of research?” Casey: So, for me, a lot of…when I was talking about… there’s parts where after Alex starts figuring stuff out, he starts, like, develops independent research of, like, let me remediate myself on queer American history, and reconnect with it, which I think is something that a lot of queer people in their 20s do. Especially for me when I was 20, 25, and then I started to figure myself out, I was like, “Wow, I need to know the first thing about my own community.” And so I went back and really read a lot and educated myself. And so a lot of the American history, American queer history was stuff I was already familiar with because that’s something that I felt was my responsibility to learn in the past. But, yeah, I definitely didn’t know a lot about queer British history at all. And so that was a lot of reading for me, a lot of, you know, finding history threads on Twitter, and then okay, I’m gonna go look up all these stories individually, and find out what’s the real truth, because things get twisted online. But, yeah. The letters kind of started with…and this is gonna date when I started writing this, but I was really coming off the “Hamilton” high, you know, which I think we all were in early 2016. It was like, “Oh, man, I’ve been mainlining Alexander Hamilton history for six months, you know.” And, you know, I was really interested… I love all of Hamilton’s love letters with Eliza, but there was also his letters with Florence that were really fascinating to me, and I had started looking into that and that was how I found this book called “My Dear Boy” by Rictor Norton. And I found that because I was researching the Hamilton Lawrence letters, and that was where I found a lot of the letters that are featured in the emails. And then I also was looking into Virginia Woolf, and Eleanor Roosevelt, and all those figures from history who also have a lot of archive letters that are very interesting. And, yeah, honestly, it was almost…I had a blast with it because it was just a queer history, like Easter egg hunt. And, you know, I intentionally did that in the book because I pictured this book…I pictured it being something that a lot of people at different points in their journey with queerness would read, and I would want…let’s say some 19-year old who’s just figuring things out, and they don’t really know anything about queer history, I’m like, “Well, here’s the name of something that you should go look up.” “Here is ‘Paris Is Burning,’ go watch it,” you know, kind of thing. And so it was, it’s really, a bunch of sneaky history lessons. I’m a nerd, and I was like, “You should know this, too.” But, yeah, I had a blast doing that. And then just research, in general, was just so much fun. I spent so much time poring through the royal collection archives online, just for throwaway jokes and stuff. I was a journalist for six years before I quit to do this full time. And so, yeah, I’m a huge nerd and I love historical context for everything because that’s just what I’ve been wired to do for so long. So, yeah, that’s kind of where it all comes from for me. Jeff: And my musical theater geek self loves that “Hamilton” had a play in that because I kind of felt that I was reading some of it’s like, “This seems very ‘Hamilton’ in some ways that they’re using this.” Casey: I battled with myself over whether “Hamilton” was a thing that existed in this universe, and if I should mention it in the book, and I was like, “I’m not gonna,” because it’s still so fresh and I feel it’s gonna date the book a lot. But it’s definitely, like, there’s this undercurrent of we’re doing colonial rap battles under the text, you know. Jeff: That’s one of the things I like about this so much is that it is current revisionist history, you know, because, I mean, most of it, and this doesn’t get to a spoiler, most of it is leading into the 2020 election, with Claremont being President in the here and now and having succeeded from Obama. Yeah, its current revisionist history. It’s very interesting how that plays itself out. Now, I think we mentioned that this is your first book that’s out there in the world. What got you into writing romance and specifically m/m romance? Casey: I mean, I have always consumed all types of media and this is my one sacrilegious answer that I give in interviews which is I’m really more into movies and TV than I am into books, and that is the most media that I consume. It’s not what I write, I’m not a screenwriter, I’m not good at that type of writing, but it is where I pull most of my influences from, and what I consumed the most as a kid, I mean, unless you count “Harry Potter,” which everybody read… Jeff: Which does very much exist in the “Red, White & Royal Blue” universe, which I also love. Casey: Oh, yeah, very much so. But what I engaged with about all of those things was the relationships in them. I’ve watched “Lost” and I was like, “I don’t care about Dharma, or the clues or what this island actually means to the polar bear,” I was like, “I care about that everybody’s gonna end up together that I want to end up together in the end, you know,” and it was always like that with everything I watched. I’ve watched “Buffy,” and it was always about that for me. It was like, “This is cool, mythology is cool, whatever, but, like, Spike,” you know. And it really that was just what grabbed me, and so I knew that was what I was always gonna wanna write. And I tried to write other genres. Every other book I tried to start writing was young adult, magical realism, or young adult fantasy, which is clearly not my genre. And I tried a bunch of different false starts in those genres, and it didn’t pan out for me. And this was, like I said, the first time, I had an idea that completely grabbed me. And I think, like I said earlier, I gravitate to writing queer fiction for the same reason that straight people gravitate to writing straight fiction which is that I’m a queer person, and it’s my experience, it’s what I know. I didn’t really come into this book with an idea of what the gender should be more than what the story would be and it formed around that because I didn’t think that the story would take on all of the same qualities. If it was two women, you know, I thought that it would be a little different tone. I felt if it was two women there’d be a porn parody within 15 minutes of it coming out, you know. And so it’s just, there’s just different ways that lesbian couples and gay men couples are perceived by the world I felt, and for this story it made more sense with two men, and I also wanted to do that prince charming trope sub-version. And so it just kind of told me what it wanted to be. But my next book is…it’s about two women, and it’s a completely different story. And so, yeah, I really…honestly, it’s just me trying to make queer rom-coms a mainstream thing more than anything else. Jeff: More power to you. And, so far, it looks like you’re doing a great job with that. Casey: Thank you. Thank you so much. Jeff: This question may not have a good answer based on what you just told us about your kind of TV and movie thing, but are there authors who influence you? Casey: Well, yeah, I mean there are definitely authors that influence me. I loved Oscar Wilde growing up which is, you know, I was 15, my sisters, I remember being at my sister’s college graduation with highlighter and sticky tabs going through “The Importance of Being Earnest.” So, yeah, I did my term paper in high school on “The Picture of Dorian Gray,” and I was like, “This is straight behavior.” But, yeah, Oscar Wilde was a huge influence on me. The “Harry Potter” books, yes, of course, they influenced me. I read a lot of non-fiction and a lot of memoirs actually because I love the voice of them, and I think that’s what helps me to have a good narrative voice. So I love Carrie Fisher’s writings, I love…Nora Ephron’s memoirs are all incredible, Mary Karr. Let’s see, what else. I’m looking at my bookshelf right now. What else do I read? Jane Austen, obviously, the classics of romance, you know. And then more recently, my favorite author right now is Taylor Jenkins Reid. “The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo” is my favorite book I’ve read in the past couple years and definitely has earned a spot on my all-time faves shelf. And so that’s definitely… And I loved how she does a lot of…she does a lot of what we call in journalism alternate story formats, so epistolary style things that are threaded into the book, which is something that obviously I really love too. And then yeah, that’s…I mean, I read a lot…at least I read a lot of non-fictions like Rebecca Traister and Roxane Gay, those are those are all my faves. But then I pull from a lot of a lot of TV and movies. The biggest influences on this were “Veep,” “Parks and Rec.” There is this web series called “The Gay and Wondrous Life of Caleb Gallo” that I love, and it’s so millennial absurdity that it really kind of like… there’s a shout out to it in the book because they play the song, “Loco In Acapulco” by The Four Tops in that show, and I put that in the book. Yeah. So I’m kind of all over the place. I have a lot of influences and a lot of things that kind of all feed into what comes out of my brain. Jeff: So let’s talk movie. You hinted that a little bit ago. Amazon and Greg Berlanti picked this up before, you know, again before it’s even published out to the world. What was your reaction when you first heard that that was a done deal? Casey: Well, I mean, it was so many stages of reaction because what people don’t see behind the scenes is that the process is crazy. It starts with I have a Hollywood agent, and she sends it out to people and then one producer expresses interest and then more producers can if they want to, and then it turns into you’re on the phone with, you know, such and such from whatever huge production company, and it’s like, “I’m not qualified to do this.” And you talk to those and you pick your producer, and that’s how I picked Berlanti. And I was just really excited to even have a chance to work with them because I’ve loved so much of their work, not even just looking at “Love, Simon,” and going back to “Political Animals” which was a six episode series that’s on Netflix. It’s got…honestly, I have to say one of my touchstones too because it’s got Sigourney Weaver is the president in that which is just amazing, and they’ve got Sebastian Stan as one of the president’s kids, and he’s very tortured, and recovering from addiction, and he’s gay, and he’s Sebastian Stan so he’s crying, you know, and very beautiful. But, yeah. So I just knew that he had the range for it and I also knew that based on “Love, Simon” that production company had the chops to get an unapologetically queer rom-com into the mainstream. But also it was on a personal level, I just remember going to see “Love, Simon” in the theater and that was probably a week after I signed my book deal. And I showed up with an entire eight-inch Jimmy John’s sub in my purse because I knew I was going to cry and I like to eat my feelings. So it was literally me alone. I had to drive 15 minutes out of my city because I was living in Louisiana at the time to find a theater that was playing it, and it just me alone in the theater with my sandwich and was just weeping to Jennifer Garner, you know. And I just remember getting in my car and thinking if my book could make people feel half as seen as I just felt by watching that movie, then I will be so, so happy. And so I’d have the chance to do, to kind of pay forward what that feeling was for me to the next round of people, especially queer people, meant so much to me. And then yeah, Amazon, they just care so much about the project. They’re so passionate about it. They want it to, you know, really…they’re actually really invested in diversifying what is in the market, and taking some risks, and doing projects like this. And it’s just so incredibly mind-blowing, and it really doesn’t feel real yet to have people want to invest those kinds of resources in a story that I wrote. More than anything, I’m just so excited about what it could represent and what it could mean to people. I think about like…and not to at all compare the histories of these communities, but I think about “Black Panther” and “Crazy Rich Asians” and what those movies meant to have as big cinematic events geared around a demographic that wasn’t usually catered to by the mainstream, you know, and what it meant for those people and what it represented for the future of storytelling for different groups. And I like the idea of being able to make any kind of similar impact with movie is incredible. And I really hope that we can do that, and I really hope that it can be the beginning of a lot more queer rom-coms, you know. So, yeah, it’s amazing. I’m so, so humbled, and amazed, and really excited to see what comes next with it. Jeff: As you were writing, I think all authors tend to cast their books to some degree. Do you have in mind, and knowing this is totally separate from anything that Amazon and Berlanti might do… Casey: Sure. Sure. Jeff: …do you have in mind who Alex and Henry are, at least in your head, as you were writing if you had to assign them an actor? Casey: Well, it’s so hard because…and this is kind of an indictment of the state of Hollywood and that is slowly beginning to change, but there really aren’t a lot of young Latino actors out there choose from, you know. And so it was… there really wasn’t a definitive Alex in my head because I have looked and looked and it was so hard to find someone that fit. And that’s what’s exciting to me about the movie is I think that we will get a chance to kind of give a star making role to some young unknown Latino actor, which would be amazing, and I would love to do that. And Henry is just very elusive. There’s five million charming white British men, but in my head, he’s just so specific-looking, and I have not yet found anyone that matched him. But the parts that were, I think, easiest for me to assign an actor to were like… I always pictured Daniel Day-Lewis as Richards with like the silver foxy and then, Ellen Claremont in my head from day one has been Connie Briton. And then, I mean, Rafael Luna in my head is Oscar Isaac for sure, you know. Jeff: Oh, yeah. I like that. Casey: There’s some characters that I came up with the character first and then tried to figure out what they looked like, and there are other characters where… with Rafael Luna I was like, “I want a character who looks like Oscar Isaac. What’s he going to be?” you know, and that was kind of how that came to be. But, yeah, I’m really excited casting is going to be so much fun, and I’m very excited about it. And I’m really, really excited about just getting to see, you know, what we can do for some…I think there’s gonna be a lot of unknowns in the lead roles, and that’s going to be amazing because they’re going to be able to really step into and embody those characters without it being distracting, like, “Oh, that’s like so and so. I look at them and all I see is the character they played in ‘Game of Thrones’ or whatever.” Yeah. so I think that’ll be, you know, a fun thing. But, yeah, that’s kind of it for that. Jeff: Do we get to see more of Alex and Henry in the future do you think? Casey: I think that I would not rule that out, and that’s all I can really say about that. Jeff: Sure. Casey: Yeah. I think that that would be amazing. I would love to do that. Jeff: And you mentioned your next book is going to be a female pairing. Casey: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s completely different from this. It’s a much smaller scope of a world. It’s just a girl who moves to New York, and she’s from the south. I don’t think I will…I don’t know if I will ever write a protagonist that’s not from the south because that’s just so deeply ingrained in me and in my voice. But she’s from south, she moves to New York, and she kind of stumbles into this roommate situation where it’s just sort of ragtag band of misfits kind of thing. And she develops this huge crush on this hot chick who’s on her subway commute every day. And it’s kind of based on the idea of that way that you fall in love with something on public transit for like 20 minutes, and then you step off, and it’s like they never existed anywhere other than the train. They’re just there for 20 minutes, and you never see them again. But the thing is that she sees this girl every single time she’s on the train. And there’s kind of a twist as to… I will say there’s some light rom-com-y style time travel shenanigans that happened, and the girl on the train is not exactly everything that she seems. And so the whole book is about their relationship and at the same time trying to figure out what’s going on with this girl. But it is rom-com, and it’s super fun, and, of course, it has a gratuitous karaoke moment. Jeff: Excellent. Casey: Well, it’s more of like there’s a gratuitous karaoke moment, and there’s a gratuitous drag show moment. Yeah, so, range. But I’m really excited it. I’m hoping…I mean, obviously, we haven’t set a date for it yet, but it is super, super personal, book of my heart for me, and I’m really excited for people to read it. Jeff: Fantastic, definitely looking forward to that. Casey: Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be awesome. I’m excited. Jeff: What’s the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they could track your progress with what’s up with Alex and Henry and also the new book and everything else? Casey: Yeah, Twitter for sure. I’m kind of been taking a step back lately because since we announced the movie my notifications have been busted, you know. But, yeah, I’ll definitely be back on more especially during tour. I tweet out playlists and a lot of little trivial information like their birth charts and things like that on there, and then also Instagram. That one is more for like I’m here for this tour date kind of thing. So yeah, those are my big two ones. It’s casey_mcquiston on Twitter, and then casey.mcquiston on Instagram. Jeff: Very cool. Well, we will put the links to all of that in the show notes. Casey: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Jeff: “Red, White & Royal Blue” comes out on May 14th, and we wish you just continued success because it’s been so much already and look forward to seeing the movie and everything else that comes from it. Casey: Yeah, thank you so much. I’m so, so grateful, and it’s been so much fun. So thank you so much for having me on.

The guys open the show with a discussion of the Netflix original Unicorn Store. Jeff reviews Bad to the Bone by Nicki Bennett. Will reviews LaQuette’s Under His Protection. Jeff & Will interview LaQuette about Under His Protection. They find out about the story’s inspiration and how it ties into LaQuette’s other series. LaQuette also shares details on her upcoming Harlem Heat series, what got her started writing romance and details about what she does as the president for New York City’s Romance Writers of America chapter. Complete shownotes for episode 184 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews from this week: Bad to the Bone by Nicki Bennett. Reviewed by Jeff Bad to the Bone turned out to be one of those perfect Dreamspun Desires for me. I’m a sucker for second chance romance combined with friends to lovers and this one adds in a bit from the redeemed bad boy trope as well. It all combined to give me exactly the read that I needed. The story kicks off on the eve of a high school reunion taking place in a small Oklahoma town. Alex Morrison has been back in town for several years, taking over his family’s hardware store when his parents needed him to. One afternoon, while working with his sister at the store, they witness a motorcyclist pulled over and it’s soon revealed that the man is Alex’s high school bestie, Ricky Lee Jennings. Alex hasn’t heard from Ricky Lee since he was expelled and sent away to reform school. Alex regretted he didn’t defend Ricky Lee and prevent the expulsion, but he was scared he’d lose his football scholarship if he did. Sparks fly at the reunion when Ricky Lee shows up without a ticket and Alex gets him in as his guest. What unfolds over the coming weeks is the rekindling of far more than a friendship. Nicki does so much with this rather simple set up. Both characters complexity made me love this book so much. Alex is someone I wanted to wrap up in a comforting hug. He does so much for the community that he lives in between serving on the library board, working for Habitat for Humanity, helping out with the high school reunion committee, and anything else he can do to help his fellow citizens. Yet, all he can see in himself is failure from a lost college football career because of an injury, a failed marriage, and even coming back to manage his family business is something he considers a fail because he gave up his dreams of being an environmental lobbyist. Of course, what he’s done is made the decisions that are right in the moment but he can’t see that. Ricky Lee, on the other hand, subverts every stereotype the town has for him. It’s awesome to watch as people who believe they know exactly who he is after ten years begin to see who he has become. He’s far from the young man who was abused by his alcoholic father and just wanted to survive high school. As both relive their high school times and share what they are doing now, Ricky Lee and Alex are drawn back together. Alex, however, is sure this can’t be more than a fling. He’s scared of revealing himself as bisexual to the town and there’s no way Ricky Lee will move back to Oklahoma since he’s got a life in Portland. The wooing that Ricky Lee does with Alex is outstanding. I love a good date and their weekend trip to Oklahoma City is all that. They stay at a boutique hotel, go to art museums and the botanical gardens and eat delicious food. The sizzling sex made the date all the hotter. It showed Alex in vivid detail what life could be like in if he decides to make a go of it with Ricky Lee. The other depth that Nikki weaves into this book is the town Alex lives in. In particular, I liked the local pastor, who is nothing like what you might expect a southern pastor to be. He turns out to be one of Alex’s biggest supporters in being true to himself. We also see Alex’s work with the library, which is a central subplot for the story since Alex and Ricky Lee’s high school nemesis, Odell, who wants to expand his car dealership by buying the land the library sits on. The goings-on with Odell took some wonderful turns that I couldn’t have predicted and I might’ve cheered just a little when everything was revealed and [spoiler alert] Odell gets his. It’s a great ending for a high school bully. There’s a tremendous cast of supporting characters too. Alex’s sister Alana and his best friend, local police officer Samantha, a.k.a. Sam, both nudge Alex in the right direction. Ricky Lee comes to town with Crae, who he introduces as his friend and assistant although many initially think they are in a relationship. I actually wish Crae had had more screen time in the book as they were a fascinating character. Crae and Sam develop a friendship that might be more and I’d love to see a book that explores that. There are also some townsfolk who have interesting reveals to Alex along the way that were incredibly sweet. And if audio is your thing, certainly pick this one up. Colin Darcy is a new-to-me-narrator and boy did he make me swoon with his voice for Ricky Lee–deep, rumbly sexiness. If you’re looking for a great category romance with some very tropey goodness, I highly recommend Nicki Bennett’s Bad to the Bone. Under His Protection by LaQuette. Reviewed by Will. This book literally starts with a bang when one of our main characters, assistant DA Camden, is nearly blown up by a car bomb. In order to keep him safe, he’s put in protective police custody. Unfortunately, the man watching over him is the memorable one night stand he walked away from five years ago, a guy named Elisha. Sequestered away in Elisha’s Westchester house, our two heroes must come to grips with the attraction that still, after all this time, is still there. As things start to become more romantic, the situation becomes even more complicated when Elisha’s family shows up for a weekend visit. They assume that the two of them are a couple and Cam and Elijah play along since it’s too dangerous to explain why Cam is hiding out at Elijah’s house. Over the course of the weekend Cam can’t help but fall for Elisha and his wonderfully crazy family. You might think things get a little too close for comfort with are two heroes and the family all in one house. Elisha actually has a very small apartment in his attached garage. They escape there every once in a while, for some truly superduper scorching sex. The chemistry between these characters is very real and very palatable. As the weekend winds down, there’s an unfortunate kidnapping attempt by this crazy religious group and Cam sacrifices himself in order to save Elisha’s mom. Camden ends up in hospital and, unfortunately, his father arrives on the scene. Camden’s life has essentially been controlled by his father, who’s had his son’s life planned out from my birth to death. It’s essentially how Cam has lived his entire life. The expectations of his father are actually part of the reason why he walked away from Elisha five years ago. Having a sexy one night fling and living a life with an average guy like Elisha just wasn’t in the plan. After experiencing the possibility of loving a man like Elisha and realizing the wonderful possibilities of a fun and fulfilling family life, he tries to stand up to his father. Cam’s father puts a stop to everything, setting up some genuinely insurmountable roadblocks to our hero’s happiness. But Cam and Elisha are not only charismatic and sexy, but also really super smart. With the help of Elisha’s police chief friend, Cam concocts a way to outwit his father and get out from under his thumb, so he Elisha can live happily ever after. I don’t know if I can adequately find the correct words, or enough adjectives to tell you how much I loved Cam and Elisha’s story. It’s just really damn good. One of my favorites of 2019 so far!   I hope it’s obvious that I really enjoyed Under His Protection by LaQuette and I highly recommend that everyone give it a read. Interview Transcript - LaQuetteWill: We are so pleased to welcome LaQuette to the show. Welcome. LaQuette: Thank you. Will: So I just spent several minutes praising and telling the entire world how much I loved "Under His Protection." Now, you've been writing for a while now, and I freely admit this is the very first book of yours that I have read, and I went absolutely bonkers for it. I love it to pieces. LaQuette: Oh, thank you. Will: Can you give us sort of an idea of where the concept for "Under His Protection" came from? LaQuette: Well, I was encouraged by Kate McMurray to submit a "Dreamspun Desires" concept. And I kind of read the submission guideline, and I really didn't think that the category section was for me, because I'm long-winded in my writing and there's this, you know, 50,000-word count, and I didn't know that I could meet that and make the story make sense. But I just felt like, you know, there's a lot of angst in my writing and a lot of heavy topics sometimes. And I didn't... You know, category can be light and, you know, it doesn't have so much angst to it, so I wasn't sure if it was actually the right fit for me. But she encouraged me to do it anyway. So I thought, "Well, if I'm gonna do it, it has to be, like, LaQuette style. It can't be, you know, the traditional map of a category. I've gotta throw, you know, everything but the kitchen sink in it." And I had this sort of, like, this Prince and Pauper sort of situation in my head, but in Brooklyn. And it worked out really well in my head anyway. I really enjoy the idea of Camden coming from this really, really posh existence, and then clashing with Elijah and his very loud and boisterous family. And, I think, putting those two people together and those two, you know, with their backgrounds and differences in their backgrounds and the differences in their, you know, perspectives in life, it really...it just made for a richer experience for me, as a writer. Will: I utterly fell in love with Camden and Elijah. I think they're two incredibly...they are exceptional heroes, and they're part of what makes this book really sing. But as I mentioned in my review just a few minutes ago, part of what, I think, what makes the story compelling and even more enjoyable is the sort of supporting cast that helps them along in their journey towards saying, "I love you." Elijah's family is amazing, every single one of them. But I was particularly struck by one of Elijah's co-workers, the police chief, who is his best friend, along with, you know, being a colleague. And what I was struck by is that at the beginning of the book, the character seemed, you know, pretty, you know, straightforward, it was a secondary character, and she was there to kind of like, you know, get the story moving along. But as we read further and get to know Camden and Elijah more and more, she becomes a much more integral part of the story. And in fact, she's pretty vital to the solution that Cam comes up towards the end. And I was really surprised to read in an interviewer just, I think, this last week it appeared online. I learned that one of the reasons that this secondary character is so well-drawn is because she's actually already had her own book. LaQuette: She's had three books, actually. Will: Can you tell us real quickly, for our listeners, can you tell us about the origin of this particular character and why you thought she would be such a good fit for Camden and Elijah's story? LaQuette: Captain Heart Searlington is a character from my "Queens of Kings" series, which is all heroine-centered. And she is this...you know, her name is Heart for a reason, because she has a huge heart, even though she really carries it under this gruff exterior. She's a badass, she's all about getting work done. And if you ever get the chance to read her books, you know, she's really out there hands-on in the street. And I felt like Elijah would need someone like that, professionally and personally, to kind of...to get him to the place where he could admit his flaws. Someone that's not... You know, he's a very...he's a large man, he's aggressive, you know, he carries a gun, so he could be a little bit intimidating for the average person. But for her, she's not afraid to tell him like it is to his face. And, you know, when you have that kind of a personality where people might not tell your truth because they find you imposing, having someone who will speak the truth to you, regardless of whatever the situation is, can be vital to you, you know, making the right choices in life. And I felt like having her there would give him that balance, because he needed some really cold truths told to him, for him to get his head together and do what he needed to do. Jeff: Was it always your intention to have the character crossover or did that just kind of manifest itself? LaQuette: Well, the precinct that they work at is sort of anytime I have a police situation, those cops show up in a book somewhere. So one, because, you know, the world is already created, so it's kind of easy for me to draw from that precinct, but it's also because my readers absolutely adore this woman. And so they're always asking for her, and this was an opportunity for her to show up and say, "Hi." And not in a way that overshadows, you know, the main story, which is Camden and Elijah, but just enough to make readers go, "Oh, my God. She's here." Jeff: It's always good to get those universe crossovers and little Easter eggs like that, for sure. LaQuette: It's true. It's very true. Will: Yeah. Now, "Under His Protection" is not your first M/M romance. LaQuette: No, it is not. Will: There's also "Love's Changes," which I believe came out in 2016? LaQuette: Yes. Will: And I wanted to ask you, what drew you to writing in this specific subgenre? I mean, along with all of your other books that are more traditional male/female romances? LaQuette: Well, one, I wholeheartedly believe that everyone deserves a happy ending. And when I wrote the "Queens of King" series, I always knew that Heart's cousin, because the characters, the protagonists in "Love's Changes" are Bryan, who is one of Heart's lieutenants, you met him, actually, in "Under His Protection," and her cousin, Justice. And so they get to have their own story. You get to see them a little bit in the "Queens of King" series, but they're more background. We know that they were having a hard time and they were broken up for some reason, but we don't know why. So they get, you know, readers... Which really surprised me because I didn't really believe that there was a lot of crossover between male-female readers and male-male readers. But people really asked me for a story for those two. Like, "When are we gonna get Justice and Bryan's story? We wanna know what happens to them and how they get back together." And so I that story was actually born out of the fact that readers requested it, and so I gave it to them. Jeff: That's very cool. You know, it's always nice to see as the M/F readers catch the male-male pairing to then want to know more. LaQuette: Yes, it was really a trip for me. I did not believe that they would want it at all. But it was very touching to write their story. I was very happy with how the story turned out. I was very happy with the fact that they get their happily ever after. And it's not...it's connected to the "Queens of Kings" series, but it's not really part of it. So the story kind of takes place outside of everything that's going on in that particular story. Jeff: Do you envision more, I guess, "Dreamspun Desires" books that happened in the universe you've created with everything that's going on so far? LaQuette: I really didn't, but I've been getting a lot of mail recently about this book. And, you know, people wanting to know what happens after this. They wanna see how Camden's family kind of blends with Elijah's family and how that's going to work. I'm like, "Dude, I'm not there. Like, I have so many other projects. I can't right now. But we'll come back to that maybe." Jeff: Just based on your review, I don't see how those families mesh. Will: Two different worlds. Most definitely, yeah. LaQuette: They really are. Jeff: Now, one of the things that I'm super excited about, having recently read about, is your new contract with Dreamspinner for "Harlem Heat." LaQuette: Yes, "Harlem Heat," so when stuff makes me mad, it also makes me really productive. So I was really kind of getting tired of hearing the "not historically accurate moniker" criticism given to African-American romance, especially historical African-American romance. And it just bothered me because it's not that those happily-ever-afters weren't possible. It's just people aren't really aware of the completed history. So a lot of thing...you know, a lot of people who think they know about African-American history, the only thing they know is slavery and Jim Crow, and that's it. And, you know, black people have been downtrodden since we were brought to this country. But that's not exactly the truth because even in all of the horror, there were still moments of triumph. And we didn't just, you know, survive, we thrived. We're still here, the proof that we're still here, you know, the proof that we had happiness at some point is that we're still here. So I decided I wanted to write about a time that was where to be black and to be gay wasn't something that you had to hide from the world. It wasn't something you had to...you had your own pocket of community. There was a celebration of it. And I wanted to speak to that. I wanted people to know that these two intersections of life existed with happy endings. Jeff: And this series, in particular, is gonna go to such an interesting time period in the U.S. when all of the Harlem Renaissance was happening. LaQuette: Yeah, so it's based on three actual people who lived during the Harlem Renaissance. So it's based on Bumpy Johnson, who was the godfather of Harlem for 30 years. It's based on Langston Hughes, who was a great contributor to the Harlem Renaissance as a poet and writer. And it's also based on Cab Calloway, who was sort of one of the most notable faces in jazz and jazz music and jazz performance at the Cotton Club. So we're gonna see... we won't be using their names, but those characters will be based off of those actual people. Will: Yeah, because it was...I think it was like mere moments after I finished reading "Under His Protection." I read about this Harlem Renaissance series that you were doing, and I like lost my mind. I was like, totally doing a happy dance. This is going to be so amazing. I know this is still far in the future. But when do you think we can expect this series? LaQuette: I don't know. And that's the God's honest truth. I'm actually currently writing, finishing up the series for Sourcebooks. And so "Harlem Heat" doesn't...I don't think I'm projected to start it until like the end of the year. So I don't know exactly when it's going to be ready. But I mean, you know, ready for the world anyway. But I think I can talk to someone about getting you a beta read...a copy for beta reading if you'd like. Jeff: Please do. Yes. Will: That would be amazing. Jeff: I imagine the research for that got to be a lot of fun to look at that period in history and figure out what parts you wanna take and use. LaQuette: It is. I mean, I was very fortunate when I was in college. When I did my undergrad in creative writing. I was very fortunate to have a professor who thought outside of the box, and he taught a class on Harlem Renaissance. That was amazing. I mean, it was so rich and filled with culture. And you know, not just the usual things that we see in mainstream history but, you know, getting really down to the nitty-gritty of it. And you know, showing you to...I'm sure that when you when you guys, as gay men, look at the history of the LGBT community, and you get to see it unfold, there's such a moment of connection there. And it's the same thing for black people when we're getting to experience our history because we don't often get to see it through mainstream lens. And so to see it and to see the information dispensed in a way that's positive and celebratory and uplifting, it changes your whole perception of yourself, of who you are and where you came from. And so I'm delighted to be able to dig back into that. I have Piper Huguley, who is a history professor at Spelman College. I believe it's Spelman. And she's also a romance writer, and she's brilliant. So she helps me with a great deal with telling me what books I need to read for this period, and where I need to look for information. But it's so much fun. It really is so much fun. Jeff: That's amazing. Let's talk origin story for a minute. How did you get started writing romance? What led you down this path? LaQuette: I didn't see me on the page. I started reading romance when I was about 16 years old. Way too young to be reading some of the stuff I was reading, but you know, hey. And by the time I was about 18, I probably went through every "Harlequin Presents" that my local library had. And every romance novel I read, it was never about a girl that looked like me, never about places where I lived. So it kind of pulled me out of the romance reading for a while because it was nice to read about those stories, but there was just something missing for me after a while. And I probably, at the time, didn't recognize that I was internalizing that these stories were basically saying, "Romance isn't for you. You don't look like this. You don't fit this mold, so romance isn't for you." And I kind of just pulled away from it. And I think after I finished my undergrad, I just wanted to relax and have some fun and I kind of got back into it. And at the time, I discovered black romance was a thing. And I discovered people like Rochelle Alers, and Brenda Jackson, and Zane. And I'm like, "Wow." Like, it became exciting again. It was refreshing. It was new and yet still very familiar because I could see myself in all of the antics that were going in these stories. I could see myself in those characters. And so I decided I wanted to do that. I wanted to create those spaces, create more stories like that so people could have those connections in reality, you know, reactions when they opened up a book and saw themselves. Jeff: Now that you are writing, what do you think the trademarks of your books are? LaQuette: I do sex and snark really well. Like, I do sarcasm really well because that's my language. It really is my language, and sex, yeah, that's so if you're gonna pick up a LaQuette book, you're going to get lots of sex and lots of sarcasm. Jeff: Did she meet those two in your book? Will: Oh, yeah. Just before we started this interview, we were talking about the possibilities of an audiobook for "Under His Protection." And whatever narrator lands this job is going to, number one, have the time of their life, because Camden and Elijah are very...the banter is very smart and very witty. But also, as you say, the sex scenes are...I'm not even sure what the correct adjective is. It's smoking hot. Yeah, you're gonna need a nice cool beverage after you listen to those scenes, for sure. LaQuette: I don't know that I could listen to that. I don't know that I could. It would be so weird for me. I don't know. I mean, I know I wrote the words, but to hear them aloud, I don't know that I could do that. Will: Exactly. Yeah. Jeff: Yeah, I know, you know, many authors can't listen to their own audio books. LaQuette: Especially those parts. Like I said, I do sex. Amy Lane told me, she was like, "You write sex in such a beautiful concrete way. Like, I just wanna have all the facts when I read your books." I'm like, "Amy, that is the sweetest and weirdest thing that anyone has ever said to me, and I love you for it." Jeff: That almost should be a blurb on the book cover or something. Will: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Jeff: Is there anything you're reading right now that you wanna shout out to people as like a book to grab? LaQuette: Oh, I'm reading a few books. So I just finished Adriana Herrera's...the third book in this "Dreamer" series, and I can't remember the title because it's not actually out yet. I beta read for her, and it is fantastic. I mean, book one is great and I love it. It was so real to me that literally, I had to drive like two to three miles from my house just to go get Dominican food, because I was so hungry after reading book one. Will: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. LaQuette: And book three does the same thing. There's lots of cultural food. And it's part of the tapestry of how these two people connect and share their backgrounds, their experiences, their worldviews. And not to mention, she's so good at writing books that are socially conscious without making you feel like you're being talked down to or preached at, and I love her for that, for being... I don't know that I could do that the way she does it. She's so talented. And I'm also reading...I'm halfway through...I stumble with her name because I know her as Blue Sapphire, but she's now writing as Royal Blue for Dreamspinner, "Kyle's Reveal." Will: Yeah, I've heard of this book, yeah. LaQuette: And I'm halfway through it. And, you know, she's fire, like, she writes hot books. So I'm really excited. I can't wait to get to the end of this book. Will: What was the name of that book again? LaQuette: "Kyle's Reveal." Will: Okay. And that's the...please remind me, is the basketball book, is that correct? LaQuette: Yes. Will: Okay, yes. LaQuette: I mean, it's kind of dark because the protagonists have like a really dark traumatic history. But it's definitely deep and I'm loving it. So I'm really, really, really interested in getting to the end to see if I could just get a minute to stop writing and finish it, I'd be great. Will: Awesome. Jeff: It's such a hard thing balancing. LaQuette: It is. Jeff: "I wanna to finish this book." Then it's like, "I don't wanna read it too fast." LaQuette: Exactly. Jeff: Finding that balance. LaQuette: It's true. Jeff: Are there tropes or genres that you wanna tackle that you just haven't yet in your own writing? LaQuette: I don't know that there are any tropes, because I kind of...I throw a lot of different tropes in my books. Like, "Under His Protection" has second chance romance, it also has proximity, it also has sort of kind of enemies to lovers the way Elijah and Camden started out in the book. And it could sort of kind of be considered like a workplace romance being that they're both involved in different sides of law enforcement. But I don't know. I mean, I've done secret baby before and I love that. That was really fun. And I've done...the only thing I haven't done is like May-December romances. So I think maybe that might be something I'd might want to try. Jeff: Cool. I would read that. I love a good May-December. Absolutely. So beyond the writing, which obviously takes up a lot of time, you also are the president of RWANYC. So the New York City chapter of Romance Writers of America. Tell folks what that entails and what actually led you to running for office. LaQuette: I didn't wanna run. I had no intention of running because I have a lot of stuff to do. And it takes time away from the things that I'm contracted to do. But one of the things that's very important in romance that's happening right now is the fact that romance can be a very whitewashed world, meaning the protagonists that we see, the authors that get the most opportunities are white authors and white characters. And so if you're not white... and straight characters. If you're not writing that, it's difficult to get into the door, it's difficult to find the same resources, the same backing. It's almost impossible to get contracts. And so I ran for president of RWANYC because I wanted, in some way, to help change that landscape, to do some of the work necessary with publishers to try to change that. And it's a heavy task, it's a heavy burden, especially when we get, you know, over the last couple of weeks, we are still reeling from the RITA Awards, which is basically like the Grammys for romance. And every year, it's the same thing. It's a very, very white landscape, and very few authors of color are made finalist. No black woman has ever won a RITA in the 30 years that this award has been established. And people do a lot of mental acrobatics to justify why that is. So "Oh, maybe the writing is just not that good. Maybe that's why we've never had a black RITA award winner. Maybe black authors are not entering." You know, these are also questions that are ridiculous, because statistically, it's just impossible that no black woman would ever have won in 30 years. It's just impossible. And the reason it is, is because the judging pool, there's a bias there in terms of black women and black characters, not just black authors, but black characters. Because you cannot know who the author is, but you cannot...well, I don't write characters who are racially ambiguous. I'm proud of my blackness and my characters are as well. And so I don't try to hide that or trick people into reading my books, or make it so difficult for people to recognize who a person is or what their background is because I feel like that is an important thing. In real life, we don't really get to not know who people are by looking at them. So I don't do it in my books. And because of that, it's very difficult when you know, going into this, "I'm gonna submit this book, and it's not going to final," not because it's a poorly written book, not because I didn't do everything I could to make this book as good as it could be, but simply because my characters, especially my heroines are black. And that is just something that the judging pool cannot handle as of yet. So my work as president is a lot of, you know, being the champion for this cause and taking on this battle because it's not just about me succeeding, it's about any black author who was writing black characters having the ability to write and be supported by the industry. And if I can make any sort of headway in that and if I can help anyone along the way, I'll feel like I've done something positive with my life. Will: With books like yours, and with Adriana Herrera, who you mentioned not too long ago, do you think it's really just a matter of representation that can help build awareness for diversity in romance or is there something else that readers, specifically, should be doing or asking for? LaQuette: Well, specifically, yeah. I mean, readers have a lot of power. So if you're asking publishers, you know, "Why don't we have more diverse romance? Why don't we have romance where...you know, that shows basically the colors of the rainbow and all those brilliant facets of intersectionality in life, like, why don't we have that?" Because your buying dollars is what demands, what makes the demand. Because publishers will say, "We don't sell that. We don't contract black books because they don't sell." One of the things we discussed at Dreamspinner was the cover. That was an intentional choice. I was very clear with them when we sat down and talked about this project that Elijah needed to be on the cover. I would not subscribe to the ideology that a black man on the cover can't sell. And there are...I mean, we've seen in our writing community that some publishing houses have actually made this statement. I don't subscribe to that. So we talked about it. And then we talked about the fact that readership sometimes can have a bias. And sometimes they won't engage with the book if they feel like the person is the wrong color or wrong background. And I said, "I understand that, but we're still gonna work...you know, to work with me, this is how we're gonna work." And they were in agreement. I didn't have to convince them. I went in prepared to battle. And it was like, "Listen, I really need this guy to be black and I really need him to look like this." And they were like, "We agree. We agree." So we need more of that in the industry. And it starts with readers. It also starts with the gatekeepers. People reaching out and specifically looking for these things. It also, people who are gatekeepers also need to check themselves. So when you're reading a book and you're saying, "I can't connect to it. I didn't relate to it." Why aren't you relating to it? Is it that it's a poorly written book? I've gotten rejection letters that literally said, "This is a really well-written book, but I didn't relate to the character, so I'm not gonna buy it." That doesn't really make a lot of sense, right? So what was it that you didn't relate to? If you could see that it was a really well-written book, I mean, if it's that good, why not work with me in terms of editing to kind of get things right, you know, to where it would be something that you feel is that you could sell. But a lot of publishing houses out there don't have that mentality. And it's this sort of...it's insidious. It's not something, you know, you can actually like, look and see. Some people don't even notice it. They just think, "Oh, I don't read those kinds of books because I don't like them." And it's not that they don't like them, it's that they've not actually giving them the opportunity to be great. Jeff: So that is, obviously, great words for the readers. Kind of spinning it back to your RWA role, you're in such a diverse chapter there because you're in NYC. LaQuette: Yeah. Jeff: How are the authors in that particular region banding together to like help RWA move past the issues? LaQuette: Oh, well, a lot of my recent successes, because, you know, allies, colleagues like Kate McMurray and Tere Michaels, are like, "Listen, you're fabulous, and we want you to meet people who will also think you're fabulous. So come here." And that's part of the beauty of RWA, and that's why I fight so hard for diversity and inclusion within RWA, because my success, as I said, my recent success has all been attached to people pushing me in different directions to say, "This is where you need to be. This is the person you need to meet." And if you're not a part of the organization, you can't make those connections. And networking connections will get you further than anything you know, right? So when we cut off authors of color from that source, from the resources, from the networking connections, and the opportunities that are presented to people who are part of the organization, what we're doing is we're disconnecting them from publishing. And we're forcing them to be indie. And this is not an indie versus trad conversation. This is... some people cannot be anything other than indie, because trad will not give them the opportunity. They've been completely marginalized. And so that should not be. People should be able to publish however they choose to, whether they up to be an indie author or whether they decide that the trad route is for them, because, you know, different strokes for different folks. It is different, you know, depending on what your lifestyle is like. I have crazy children and I have to juggle being a mom, a writer, and everything else and try to keep sane. Being an indie author is a lot of work. It's a lot of effort on your end to make a book successful. I don't have that kind of time in my life, or that kind of energy, honestly. So being a trad author is a much better avenue for me and my situation. And if that is the only way that I can publish, but publishing will not give me the opportunities, then it's, you know, I'm losing out. And that's the purpose of RWA to sort of bridge those gaps. But I don't think we're exactly where we need to be yet. So we're still working on it. Will: Yeah, definitely. Jeff: We very much appreciate your efforts towards that, for sure. Will: Now, the Romance Writers of America National Conference is going to be in NYC this summer. LaQuette: Absolutely. Will: And I expect you're going to be there. LaQuette: Oh, yeah. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Will: Yeah, we're actually making a trip for the first time this year as well. LaQuette: Yay. Will: So hopefully we will... I know it's gonna be crazy busy. But hopefully, we're gonna get a chance to say hi in person. LaQuette: It is. Absolutely. Jeff: For sure. Now, we talked about "Harlem Heat." You mentioned a couple other things. What is on your docket for the rest of this year for releases? LaQuette: I don't think I have any other releases this year because I'm writing. So I've been very blessed in that I have landed these two major contracts with Sourcebooks and with Dreamspinner, both for series. So I'm halfway through Source's books. And I need to start on Dreamspinner's toward the end of the year. So there won't be any more releases from me. I mean, if I get a moment where I'm, you know, feeling really creative, I might try to get a novella together. But I'm not making any promises. Jeff: All right, so we'll look for a lot more in 2020, for sure. LaQuette: Yeah, 2020 is definitely...the first book for Source comes out in 2020. I don't have a release date yet. I have delivery dates for Dreamspinner, but I don't have release dates yet. So I'm thinking probably sometime toward the end of 2020, possibly, or maybe the beginning of 2021. Jeff: All right. Well, when "Harlem Heat" comes out, you definitely have an invitation to come back and talk, for sure. LaQuette: Oh, yay. Thank you. Jeff: Now what's the best way for everybody to keep up with you online? LaQuette: Oh, so you can find me on Facebook at, you know, my Facebook page, LaQuettetheAuthor. You can find me on Twitter @LaQuetteWrites, or you can find me on Instagram at la_quette, or you can email me at laquette@laquette.com, or you can go to my website laquette.com. Will: Fantastic. Jeff: She's well branded, and everything is the same. Will: Most definitely. Well, LaQuette, it was a genuine honor to have you on the show today. LaQuette: Oh, thank you. Will: We're so glad that you could take some time out of your extremely busy schedule that you can come talk to us. LaQuette: Thank you for having me. I mean, I was so excited and a little bit nervous also, to come on and talk to you guys because I've seen the show before. And I'm like, "Yay, I get to go hang out with them. I feel special." Will: Well, it is a genuine pleasure. We're so glad that you came. LaQuette: Thank you so very much for having me.

The show opens with Jeff talking about turning in the manuscript for new/revised edition of Hat Trick. The guys also talk about Captain Marvel. Will reviews Wanted-Bad Boyfriend by TA Moore and IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox. Jeff reviews Diversion by Eden Winters. Jason T. Gaffney and Kevin Held join Jeff & Will to discuss their new movie project, the romantic comedy/paranormal themed Out of Body. They recorded the audiobook of the novelization, which was written by Suzanne Brockmann. We also find out about their history-based podcast, The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason. Complete shownotes for episode 180 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Diversion by Eden Winters, narrated by Darcy Stark. Reviewed by Jeff Eden Winters Diversion series has been recommended to me for some time now and I finally took the leap. This first book was first published in 2012 but just came out in audio in October 2018 with narration from new to me voice artist Darcy Stark, who does a great job with both the suspense and romance. This enemies-to-lovers, workplace romantic suspense story centers on agents for the Southeastern Narcotics Bureau, Richmond “Lucky” Lucklighter and Bo Schollenberger. Lucky’s nearing the end of his forced stint on the job–forced as it was his way out of jail. Bo is new and eager, but is also at the job because of incidents in his past. They end up working together to bring down a ring of drug diversion and insurance fraud that involves a doctor, a drug manufacturer and a drug destruction company. I fell in love with gruff, no nonsense Lucky right away. He’s extremely good at his job, mostly because he used to be on the other side of the law. He exudes frustration and irritation at what he has to do and why and yet there’s a teddy bear in there too because he cares about getting the job done right. The friction that’s stirred up when Lucky’s saddled with mentoring Bo is sublime. Lucky’s looking to ride a desk during his last few weeks at the bureau, but his boss has other ideas. Bo’s very green in terms of what he has to do here–but he is ex-military so he’s no pushover either. He can take what Lucky dishes out and it pisses the senior agent off… and eventually Bo gives back as good as he gets. The friction gets explosive as Lucky battles with himself about the feelings he develops for Bo. The other thing the friction brings is a ton of humor. Lucky and Bo know how to push each other’s buttons–whether it’s blasting Billy Ray Cyrus, forcing healthy eating habits or being messy. It’s a wonderful odd couple pairing that morphs in a beautiful way as it becomes less about antagonizing and more about a sweet nudging of one another to just maybe move things to another level in their relationships. Both men have complicated backstories that make you feel for even more for them. Lucky ended up at the bureau after going to prison for the part he played in a large scale drug operation. He’d been in love with the guy behind that operation and when it all came crashing down Lucky was sure he wanted no part of loving anyone again. The pain Eden created for Lucky is devastating, which makes him all the more loveable when he’s able to come out of his shell. Bo did illegal things to help an ex and ended up taking illegal substances to the point that it’s very difficult for him to be around the drugs in a Pharmacy, which his job requires. There’s also abuse in his past and Lucky’s careful to keep Bo away from triggers as much as he can. The lengths he goes to keep Bo feeling safe are extremely sweet. Eden takes great care in how backstory is presented. Once the men get past their posturing and disdain for each other, they peel back they reveal themselves in a very natural way–as friends, coworkers and eventually lovers do. The good and bad are offered in equal measure and it’s perfect relationship development. The only thing I wanted in this story that I didn’t get was Bo’s point of view. I would’ve loved to know what was rattling around in his head. Not to take away from Lucky though as he was quite the good narrator and this one point doesn’t take away from my love of the book. The Diversion series is up to book seven as of January 2019–with the third book released in audio in February 2019–so I’ve got some catching up to do. I’m looking very forward to that. IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox & Molly Maddox. Reviewed by Will In Real Life combines the classic alpha billionaire character trope with the time-honored scenario of two characters who are combative in real life, but are secretly corresponding with one another and falling in love. Which is the long-winded way of saying it’s a similar set up as the classic movies Shop Around the Corner, You’ve Got Mail, In the Good Old Summertime, and the musical She Loves Me. The way that the characters write to each other has changed and evolved, but the premise remains the same. There’s also hints of enemies to lovers and opposites attract. This book is ripe with tropey goodness. So what’s it all about you might ask? Nice guy geek Conor is in New York to sell his mother’s bio-med technology to a ruthless CEO. The evening before his big presentation he decides to live a little and begins sexting with who he thinks is the sexy hotel bartender. It’s not. The text exchange he ends up having with a stranger, who he calls Trace, is amazing, and through several flirtatious and super-hot online conversations, they begin a fling. At the meeting the next morning, Wells Grange recognizes Conor thanks to the Dalek tie he is wearing. Conor is the hot and horny guy he sexted with the night before. His first inclination is to use this information as leverage in their business negotiations. But Wells quickly begins to fall for Conor, both the sexy online version and the awkward real-life version. As they work through the contracts for the sale, Wells continues his deception. They spend several days together and get to know one another, Conor unaware that Wells and Trace are the same person. We follow our heroes, almost in real time, as they fall in love while working together, going out to dinner, and taking carriage rides in Central Park. Once the business deal is finalized, Wells and Conor finally give in to their attraction and sleep with each other. Needless to say, it’s amazing and life altering for both of them. But, as is the case in stories like these, Conor finally puts two and two together before Wells can come clean about his sexting alter ego. Conor is humiliated and justifiably furious. He packs his bags and returns to North Carolina, with zero intention of ever speaking to Wells again. And rightly so. I’m going to be super upfront with you guys, there are certain aspects of the billionaire trope that I personally find problematic. I was on board with Wells and Conor for most of the story, but there were moments when I had a hard time dealing with certain aspects of Wells’ alphahole personality. In my view, if the ending of this book was going to be believable, Wells was going to have to move mountains and pull off one of the biggest mea culpas in romance history. It may not have been the biggest, but Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox crafted a finale that was truly heartfelt and genuinely appropriate for our two heroes. To make amends, Wells makes sure Conor’s sick mom is well taken care of and part of an experimental treatment program (her illness was the reason they needed the money from the business deal). Later, when Conor is unable to attend a Comic convention to unveil an important new development in his gaming business, Wells steps in, and personally gives a rousing presentation on Conor’s behalf. Wells proves he isn’t the billionaire alphahole he seems. Yea for true love and happily-ever-afters! Interview Transcript Jeff: Welcome back to the show, Jason and Kevin. Kevin: Thank you. Jason: Hello. Thank you. Kevin: Nice to be back. How you been? Jeff: Awesome. Jeff: Well, we had you on before, we were talking all about “Analysis Paralysis.” But you guys have a lot more going on besides that movie. You’re actually in pre-production right now on a film called “Out of Body.” Jason: Yeah. Jeff: Tell us what that one’s about. Jason: So “Out of Body” is basically a story where it’s a friends-to-lover rom-com. And basically, Malcolm, who’s Kevin’s character, has his body stolen from him and he kind of ends up as a spirit for a while. And he has to prove that he exists to me, Henry, and then when that finally happens, we do some magic, we fight some demons, we might get the body back, there’s definitely a happily ever after because it’s a rom-com. Kevin: You and your end happily-ever-afters. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: It’s important. Kevin: I know, I know. But I just want to the rom…just one time I want a rom-com to be…it’s mostly romantic and funny but everyone does die. Jason: Or they die hilariously. Kevin: It’s a rom-com drama. Jason: Death by rubber chicken. Jeff: And what was kind of the inspiration behind this movie this time? Jason: I don’t even know how this idea came in my head. But I was sleeping one day and I woke up and I was like, “Oh, that’d be really cool. A movie where someone’s dead but they wanted to be together but then they didn’t get to be together. And then they have to fight to get their body back and come back to life.” And so I wrote a kind of a similar but different kind of script. And we did a table read, and my mom was a part of the table read. And she was like, “I love the story you have here. Can I take it and can I change a lot of it and make it like super romance with the comedy?” And so this particular movie and book and audiobook is definitely heavier on the romance than the comedy, as opposed to “Analysis Paralysis.” But it’s, in my opinion, really, really good because the romance really makes…it’s gripping, it really gets you right in the heartstrings. And she basically saw what I was going for and was able to finesse it and really kind of mold it into what my kind of original vision was and then some. So I’m really psyched about it. It’s got a little bit of everything. Will: Yeah, not too long ago, I talked about the novelization of “Out of Body” here on the show. Jason, your mom, Suzanne Brockmann, of course, wrote that novelization, it was rather amusing. Like, I think in the forward she kind of does like a behind the scenes thing where she kind of tells that story where she says, “Jason, this is great. But do you mind if I take it and make it better?” Kevin: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. And here’s the thing, I am all about that. Like the filmmaking, it’s such a collaborative process and storytelling can be a really collaborative process. And I want to make good movies. And so I was really happy with the script that I had written, but when someone who’s as great of a writer as my mom is comes and says, “I want to have fun with this and let me just see what I can do with it,” I’m like, “Hell yeah. Take it. Have at it.” Yeah. Kevin: And the end result is really a script, a novel, and a script that really looks like if brilliant improviser and plot maker and gay comedy guy let his script be taken over by a bestselling romance novelist, what would happen, it would be this. You know. And so it’s really got great, great aspects of all of those elements. Will: Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and the audiobook as well. And I think it’s a really unique opportunity for people who are interested in “Out of Body,” the movie, to check out the audiobook and sort of, it’s essentially like a preview of what they’re going to be getting when the film comes out to the public. Can you give us a little bit of an idea about what it was like to kind of get into the material early before you even like were thinking about shooting by recording the audiobook? Kevin: I can tell you for my part, like, since I’m not one of the writers on this, which is, you know, traditional for me because I’m not usually the writer on a project that I’m acting in. But it’s completely unprecedented to have a novel that you get to perform about the thing before you even film the script. You know, so we get…like as an actor, it’s a freaking dream because I have…so you know how actors have to create subtext and everything, I just have to go to the book, you know, it’s like, “Don’t worry. I don’t have to make it.” It’s already been written down for me. So if I’m wondering, like, what’s happening for Malcolm now, what’s going on there? What’s the deep, deep part of it? It’s already written out for me now. So I would say, so the book is available. It’s on, it’s called “Out of Body.” It’s on Audible.com. And I would say, don’t deprive yourself of the opportunity to say the book was better. Jason: Yeah. And, you know, it was really cool to do the audiobook in general because it was our first audiobook for both of us as narrators. And when we were talking about doing it, we were talking with my mom about it and I was interested in the idea of recording it in a way where it was more like a radio show where we are our characters’ dialogue voices all the time, even if it’s in the other person’s point of view. Whoever’s point of view reads the descriptive stuff in the chapters. But if Malcolm’s speaking, even though I’m the narrator of that chapter, he still says his line, and he still says the lines of the other characters that he had been assigned and vice versa for me. And that was really kind of fun to do because, you know, how often do you get to do kind of a radio show acting gig? And it was also really fun for me as a director to get to do this with Kevin in advance, because, like, he now really knows the story and I know he knows the story. So I know that when he comes to set, that’s going to be really easy. And I got into the head of the other characters as well reading them, and that’ll help me be able to hold my other actors hands and kind of with them through their parts, and still allow them to bring what they want to bring to the role and have it blossom into how great it can be. Kevin: Yeah, and that’s like all separate and apart from the experience of actually recording the audiobook, which you might think was done him some and then me some on consecutive days or anything, but it was actually live together. So we actually recorded in a space that had two recording booths in it. We could both hear each other so that when I am narrating a section and it’s his line, I can hear him do it. And then I jump back in. So it was live editing, like, to take out any breaths or anything, or mess-ups or anything, so, but we got to…you know, it was amazing because I had him in my head the whole time doing it, too. So that was wonderful. It’s a great experience. Jeff: That’s amazing, especially how it connected to your even now pre-production process that you’re involved in because you’re getting ready to shoot in about a month from when we’re recording. In pre-production, give everybody kind of an idea of what that means. What’s going on as you get ready for your 12 days of shooting? Jason: So basically, what I just did was go through each of the scenes and break them up on a piece of paper so that now I have the page count number, like how many pages each scene is. Kevin: These are them. Jason: Oh, yeah. Little strip paper… Kevin: Each one of these is a scene. Jason: And basically, the page count, when it starts, who is in the scene, all that stuff. Because I need to…you know I don’t have every actor every day. I’m going to have Kevin every day because he’s one of the leads. But there’s other parts in it where they’re only going to film for one day…anywhere from one to three days. And so you have to plan their scenes on the same day. And this time, we’re going to actually be filming in two different locations because our neighbors next door sold their house to flippers and they’re doing construction and it’s been kind of never-ending. So we can’t film when there’s kind of heavy construction going on in this house. So we’re going to do a lot of stuff at my father in law’s house and then will come get the rest of it after they’re done here. And so I’ve been doing that with my dad and breaking it into those days while simultaneously working with my cinematographer Nacia to map out which shots are needed for each scene and what angles are we doing. So I put little maps on the other side of the table here. Basically, me drawing out the room layout and doing little circles with an M for Malcolm and an H or Henry, and the arrows pointing they go here and then they go here… Kevin: Oh my god. And this isn’t even talking about how to deal with SAG paperwork or any of the art direction that he’s doing, or any of the clearances that he’s getting for this or that kind of thing. Jason: We’ve got a, we’re going to have a… Kevin: He’s a bit of a doer. Jason: We got Andrew Christian giving us underwear… Kevin: Oh, yeah, we have Andrew Christian underwear over here. Jason: And I’m working with some other companies too. So Outfit is a gay like sports good wear, they’ve given me a patent to us for the movie. Kevin: He’s been stenciling t-shirts and… Jason: Hand design t-shirts specific to the characters. I’m going to be making him a specific shirt three times because he wears the same outfit the whole movie and so if anything spills on it, it’s got to be good and not spilled upon because he magically can’t get stains. And so it’s intense, there’s a lot going on. Like Pinterest is my best friend. I’ve been learning all about how to make DIY Halloween decorations. Because again, when you’re low budget, you can’t spend, you know, $3,000 on set design. You can spend like $200, and so you have to get a little crafty. You have to start thinking like, “Okay, I’ve got five pages of construction paper and a pair of scissors and some tape, how going to make this look like I spent a lot of money on it?” Kevin: He’s like MacGyver. So that’s his experience with pre-production, mine’s a little bit different because I’m not all the hyphenates. So I’m busy making no changes at all to my daily routine. Jeff: You do have a script to learn. Kevin: Sure, when I get it. Jason: It’s in the mail. Kevin: We’re at your house. Jeff: Oh my goodness. Jason: The creating part, like creating the artwork, it actually makes me feel calm. The paperwork stresses me out. And so Matt, thankfully, jumps on that grenade and deals with SAG-AFTRA and making sure that all the paperwork’s there and all the money is in the right place and all that stuff. So thank you, Matt. Jeff: Now, we should say Matt is your husband, so he’s in the production family. Jason: Yes. Kevin: Yeah. Will: So now that our listeners know how completely awesome and funny this project is going to be, can you give us a little bit of info about the Indiegogo campaign? Jason: We have an Indiegogo campaign, basically we crowd-funded “Out of Body” on Kickstarter first, a successful crowdfunding campaign last year. and Indiegogo came to us and said, “We’d like to do an in-demand campaign for you.” So we have an open-ended campaign on Indiegogo right now, where you can help sponsor the film help and get some fabulous rewards, such as DVDs of “Out of Body” when it finally is all finished, you can get DVDs of “Analysis Paralysis,” our last feature film. Kevin: I’m going to get these down from the thingy here. Jason: So you can show people. Kevin: You can actually, because now we’re in the second feature film that stars the two of us. Like we got other projects that I have to do with like if you’re your fans of “Analysis Paralysis,” or perhaps the audiobook of “Out of Body,” you can get these copies, you can get copies of all that stuff. And so as we are on the way to becoming things of all media. Jason: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so if you go to indiegogo.com and you go, indiegogo.com/projects/out-of-body-a-feature-length-lgbtq-rom-com-movie/, it’s a very long title. Kevin: Really, why don’t you go to indiegogo.com and search “Out of Body.” Yes. Jeff: Or just come to our show notes, it’ll be much easier. Will: Yes, do that. Kevin: Exactly. Go to “Big Gay Podcast” website and it’s going to be in the show notes. Jason: Another place you can find out information about “Out of Body” in the future and any sort of campaigns we’re having, etc., is if you go to tinyletter.com/mypethippo and join our newsletter, you’ll be able to find out things about “Analysis Paralysis” or “Out of Body,” or our podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason,” all sorts of fun stuff. And yeah, so and basically indie film, it’s low budget. So every dollar really does make a difference. Like if we get enough money to buy a better meal for the cast and crew, everybody’s spirits raised, it gets raised up a little higher, you know, or we can afford an extra day of filming, or we can afford…it really does matter. So thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. And thank you to everyone who comes and supports us after this. Kevin: Yes, indeed. Jeff: Now, Kevin had this wonderful term about you guys, you know, essentially taking over media. You mentioned the podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason.” It’s a comedy podcast about history. How did this idea spark? Because this just adds to you, I imagine, having to research these historical things. Kevin: Now, Jason does all the research for this, you know, and that’s huge. Like, because basically, he doesn’t have enough to do. But the impetus for the podcast, which is “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason” is, you know, there’s so much bad news all the time. And my mom taught me how to look on the bright side of stuff, you know. If I got one thing from my mom, it was to…I would always complain about this or that and she would constantly remind me of there’s something good here, you know, and you have to find that. And so that’s really the gem of this, it’s really the heart of that show is that, especially when you look around at the news right now, there’s so much bad stuff that is going on. But you have to also recognize that bad stuff creates the opposite reaction. And so who is making the good out of that? You know, who is looking at that and reacting to it in a way of love, or in a way of furthering acceptance, or you know, who’s looking at the transgender ban, for example, that was finally instituted by the Supreme Court? And who is saying, you know, I want to reach out and tell my trans brothers and sisters that you are people and you are valuable and your service is useful and we love you? You know, so who’s doing that? You know, and so that’s what the podcast really kind of focuses on. We do wallow in some tragedy on the podcast because every week we take a historical episode of some varying degree of tragic-ness and talk about it. But then we also, every episode, find out what good that led to. Jason: And it kind of came about a long time ago after “Analysis Paralysis,” like Kevin mentioned in the last episode, we talked a little bit about how we met on a student film and basically got along really well, really quickly, and then we started hanging out together with our husbands and going on double dates, and so it kind of formed this bond. And after “Analysis Paralysis,” which was so much fun, it was 10 days of basically seeing Kevin and laughing and having a good time, I was like, “I don’t want to wait a year-and-a-half for the next project. I want to do something now with you.” Kevin: The experience of just chatting about a topic on a set or something was so much fun and we thought, “We should bottle this.” And then we thought, “You can.” There’s a method for this that’s called a podcast, and that’s what started. Yeah, you know, so now I get to come over here every damn week. Jason: Yeah, come to the Valley. You’re welcome. Kevin: Yeah, when I moved to Westwood I was hoping that my second bedroom would be a good place to record. But it’s not, it’s not good. Too much noise there. The valley’s a lot of things, but it is quiet. Jason: It is quiet. Unless they’re doing construction next door. Kevin: Right. Jeff: You could just turn that second bedroom into a soundproof area. Kevin: No, actually, currently, we didn’t have any…we moved from a house that had a lot of storage into a house that had another bedroom, but no storage. So that second bedroom has just become basically the id of our house. You know, everything’s like ahhhhh, you know? Jason: It’s like in “Harry Potter,” what’s that closet? Kevin: The room of requirements? Jason: Yes. Kevin: It’s the room of please don’t go in there actually. Will: Now, guys, I’m curious. How do you choose which historical events to feature and how much research goes into each episode? Kevin: That’s 100% question for Jason because though I feel that the podcast is a 50/50 pursuit, because Jason does all of the research for the topics that we do, and I don’t ever know what we’re going to talk about until I get here, but then I do all the web mastering and editing and I put up the shownotes and I do all of that stuff. So I feel like we end up spending around the same amount of time on things. Jason: Yeah. So basically, generally about a day of work I kind of surf the web, I find a topic that…like I kind of search, you know, the rabbit hole as to like what kind of weird historical thing is this? And I’ll like Google really weird stuff so my search history… Kevin: Yeah, they’re coming for you. Jason: …completely messed at this point. But like, you know, I’ll look up like “wild strikes historical funny” to see what I get from it. But honestly, there’s been a ton of them I’ve gotten through recommendations of friends and family and listeners of the podcast, and we really encourage listeners to throw ideas at us because there’s some really obscure events in history that I don’t know about that I would love to know about and I could easily find it if I knew to search for it. And so if anyone out there listening has weird events, definitely tweet me or email me. Kevin: You can find him @jasontgaffney on Twitter, and tell him and I don’t want to know about it. Jeff: That’s right. Kevin has to stay in the dark. Kevin: Right. Jason: So what I look for also, I try to look for topics where there’s a lot of tragedy, but you can still make fun of it. Like, if it’s a natural disaster, I try to find one where people made bad decisions with the natural disaster, not that it’s just, like, everyone got screwed and they tried to do the right thing, but they still got screwed because you can’t really make fun of those people. That’s just sad. Kevin: And mean. And it’s really not. I mean, I know we’re talking about a lot of tragedy, and that’s kind of what we focus on. But it’s not a cruel show. It’s not a Schadenfreude, really, because the ultimate goal is to find out what the hopeful aspect of it, who turned that situation into something good, you know. Jason: And you’d be surprised, like, we generally can find it. I don’t think we found one yet where there’s really nothing, no bright side to it. Kevin: No. Because the arc of history is long and you never know what the end result of a pebble, you know, when a pebble goes into a puddle, you don’t know how farther in they’re going to go, you know, and so, like, we talked about that event but that could lead to something incredible later, you know. Jeff: For you, Kevin, since you come in cold to these, what’s been of the episode so far that you’re like, “What? What did I just hear?” Kevin: Oh, my God. Well, the “Empire” panic, for example, has been insane. Like, I have a feeling when I post the episodes, I have a feeling like I hope…My mom and I listened to the Christmas episode over Christmas. And at the end of it, she said, “That was funny and I learned some stuff.” So that’s what…it was like I was, “Oh, good. There we go.” That’s what I would like people to have from it. Is like, “Oh, I enjoyed that, you know, conversation. That was fun and stuff.” But also, “God, who knew?” Yeah, that’s amazing. Because he’s pretty good at this, every episode there’s gonna be some point where I’m like, “Are you kidding? Human beings did this,” you know? It’s always, “Yes, they did,” good Lord. Jason: It’s also it’s gotten way more fun to do the research than it initially was because I was really nervous the first couple episodes to like, “Oh, my God, is this going to be funny? How can I make this funny?” And I was trying a little like…we actually have a couple of episodes that just never aired because I was trying too hard as opposed to just seeing that, yeah, that was absurd. I don’t need to say anything except what they said. And now that I’ve kind of mastered that to a degree. I mean, I’ll keep getting better as time goes on. But now I can really see like as I’m reading stuff, I’ll be like, “Oh, I know that Kevin’s gonna hear that and go, ‘Stop it.'” And then he’s gonna call it out, call the absurdity of it. I don’t need to do anything except, say, like, you know, “And then she picked up the knife and stabbed her own foot.” And it’s like, “Why?” Kevin: Spoiler alert. Jeff: Did you have a knack for history before this, Jason? Or did this just kind of happen? Jason: So I’ve always loved history. I always love the idea of history. When I was actually a little kid, I used to play with blocks a lot. And it’s probably why I like being a producer and a storyteller. I used to have like this giant castle and a giant village and an army of bad guys and I acted out this soap opera for years with the royal family and all that. And I was fascinated with the Romanovs and stuff so I kind of like did a little spoof on them. And so I kind of created like my own worlds, and history and stuff. And so when I can find sites that tell historical stories like a story, which is what history should be told as because it essentially is our story, it’s really fun. It’s really exciting to read it and be like, “No, oh, my goodness, that person’s totally the villain.” And then you read a couple more paragraphs, and you’re like, “Oh, no, they’re misguided. They have a heart of gold. They didn’t know.” And then five pages later, you’re like, “No, they’re just a dick.” And it’s exciting, it’s riveting, it gets you on the of the edge of your seat constantly with how people just constantly mess up. And then occasionally, you have a hero who’s just like, actually a good person, you’re like, “What’s the catch?” So, yeah, you know, history is really fun, especially when it’s told with a fun storytelling lens because… Kevin: And I think that’s like the thrust of the podcast is also it’s about the topic, sure, but it’s also just about how Jason and I interact with each other. And we just have such a fun friendship. And I don’t mean that it’s fun from the inside. I hope it is, but it’s fun from the inside of it. So I have such a good time with him that whatever we’re talking about is going to be fun for me. Jeff: That’s awesome. So besides “Out of Body” and more podcast episodes, what else is coming up for you both? Kevin: I may never work again. Who knows? Jason: We’ve actually started writing the sequel to “Analysis Paralysis” with the hope of filming it at the end of the year, with the additional hope of trying to film it in Palm Springs. Kevin: First time hearing of that. Really? Jeff: Breaking news. Kevin: I love Palm Springs. Jason: We’re gonna do what we can to make it work. And it would require assistance from the Palm Springs community, sure, help house us and give us locations and stuff. Kevin: It’s gonna be all on the gondola. Only there. Jason: What gondola? Kevin: The gondola up to the mountain thing. Jason: Oh, yeah, that gondola. Kevin: The whole thing is set on the gondola. Jason: I was thinking like the gondola with a little stick… Kevin: Yeah, the canals in Palm Springs. Jason: But another thing that I’m actually working on is my dad and I wrote a couple of novellas that you can get on Amazon. Kevin: What are they called? Jeff: “California Comedy Series.” Jason: The “California Comedy Series.” Yes. And I wrote a version of “Fixing Frank” with the hopes to get that kind of ball rolling. And it’s definitely a film that requires a bigger budget than what we have right now. But I’m starting to get those wheels in motion for you know, movie four, five, six sometime in the near future. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I’m working on. Kevin: We keep cranking them out. If people will keep putting them on screens and things, we’ll keep making them. Jason: The goal is to make people laugh. I feel like that’s why I was put on Earth and I feel like that’s why you were put on Earth. Kevin: Well, yeah. I know am laughing whenever I see you so that’s probably true. Jeff: Do we get new “California Comedy” anytime soon? Jason: I have been talking about that with my dad, we actually have a couple that are in the works, it’s just trying to figure out when we have a good time to sit down and edit it. I think after “Out of Body,” I’ll be able to take a look back at one of them that we wrote a while ago and kind of tweak it because there were a couple of things that just never felt right. And so it’s just figuring out how to fix those kinds of plot holes. And then hopefully that’ll be on the market before the end of 2019. Jeff: Excellent. And Kevin, what about you, anything you want to throw out for people to keep an eye out for? Kevin: Super excited about the podcast, actually. You know, going into production on “Out of Body” is really, really exciting. I don’t have a lot of acting projects coming up after that, that I can think of right now. But that’s kind of the nature of acting projects. Jeff: Sure. Kevin: You know, and so the podcast is where you can find us weekly up until the end…and actually, we make announcements there about projects that do come up for us, you know, in the interim. So, you know, to be a loyal listener to the show would be the best way to find out about what’s new with us. You know. Jason: Oh, and I almost forgot. We’re going to try in some way whether it’s self-published or with some other company helping us, the goal is to turn the “California Comedy Series” into audiobooks as well, similar to “Out of Body.” Jeff: Oh, fantastic. So both of you voicing? Jason: Yeah, for two of them. One of them, the plan is to have my good friend David Singletary come in as the role of Mike since that role is African American. And my friend David Singletary is African American and I’m all about… Kevin: Kevin Held is very much not. Jason: I’m all about own voices reading parts and stuff like that. And he’s great. You’re going to love him. Kevin: He is great. I’m a little jealous, but I’m okay. Jeff: Well, guys, thank you so much for telling us about “Out of Body” and the podcast. We wish you much success with those. Jason: Well, thank you. Kevin: Well, much success with your own podcast, gentlemen. Jason: Thank you, yes.  

Ken Shelton returns as we discuss multicultural education and specifically, what's right and wrong with Black History Month. We will discuss movies on the topic of equity/multiculturalism we recommend for you! Extra Credit: Ken Shelton Jeff: James Banks: Levels of Integration of Multicultural Education & Five Dimensions of Multiculturalism Books - disrupt texts . . . rethink the curriculum to make it more inclusive FB - EquityEDU Some resources: Equity and Inclusion Wakelet Ken: Bill Pickett and Bass Reeves Bessie Stringfield Mary Church Terrell Black Wall Street Read thoroughly Letter From A Birmingham Jail Donnie: Multicultural Education at the Elementary Level “Soundtrack for a Revolution”   Race-Conscious Kids Teaching Tolerance Early Settlements did not have slaves, but indentured servants Jesse: Experiences/Thoughts - Book: Random Family Best/Favorite Movie(s) About Civil Rights/Race/Multiculturalism Jesse: Boyz N The Hood, Straight Outta Compton, Hoop Dreams, Jeff: Do the Right Thing (problem of equating white issues to non-white), Real Women Have Curves, Docu: 13th, Eyes on the Prize Donnie: We Shall Remain : https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/weshallremain/ Ken: Malcolm X, Docu 13th, Docu I am not your negro, What Happened Miss Simone, Selma, Mention The Six Day Race Issues of the White Savior - KenCommon Sense Media: Black History Movies that Tackle Racism (middle school and older) Something Useless Donnie Found on the Internet http://www.beesbeesbees.com - - - - - Visit our website Share Feedback & Ideas Tweet us at @PartialCreditEd Follow us on Instagram @PartialCreditEd Like us on Facebook

Shownotes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we’re tackling an incredibly important topic - evaluation and management of life threatening headaches in the Emergency Department. Nachi: Fear not, this will not simply be “who needs a head CT episode”; we’ll cover much more than that. Listen closely as this is an important topic, with huge consequences for mismanagement. Jeff: Absolutely. As some quick background - headaches account for 3% of all ED visits in the US, with 90% being benign primary headaches and less than 10% being secondary to other causes like vascular, infectious, or traumatic etiologies. It’s within these later 10% that we are looking for the red flag signs to identify the potentially life-threatening headaches. Nachi: And to do so, Dr. David Zodda and Dr. Amit Gupta, PD and APD at Hackensack University Medical and Trauma Center, and their colleague Dr. Gabrielle Procopio, a PharmD, have done a fantastic job parsing through the literature, which included over 500 abstracts, 89 full text articles, guidelines from ACEP and the American Academy of Neurology, as well as canadian and european neurology guidelines, to summarize the best evidence based recommendations for you all. Jeff: We would be remiss to not also mention Dr. Mert Erogul of Maimonides Medical Center and Dr. Steven Godwin, Chair of Emergency Medicine at the University of Florida College of Medicine. Nachi: Alright, so let’s get started with some definitions and pathophysiology. The international classification of headache disorders 3, or ICHD-3, classifies headaches into primary, secondary, and cranial neuropathies. Jeff: Primary headache disorders include migraine, tension, and cluster headaches. Secondary headaches include those secondary to vascular disorders, traumatic disorders, and disorders in hemostasis. These are the potentially life threatening headaches that can have a mortality has high as 50%. Nachi: And the final category includes cranial neuropathies, such as trigeminal neuralgia. Jeff: And I think we can safely say that that wraps up our discussion in this episode on cranial neuropathies, moving on…. Nachi: Headaches result from traction to or irritation of the meninges and blood vessels, which are the only innervated central nervous system structures. Activation of specific nerve ganglion complexes by neuropeptides like -- substance P and calcitonin gene-related peptide -- are thought to contribute to head pain. Jeff: It is important to note that all headache pain shares common pain pathways, thus response to pain medications does not exclude potential life threatening secondary causes of headache. This led to the ACEP guideline which states just that.. Nachi: I feel like that deserves ding sound as it's a critically important point. To repeat, just because a pain medication relieves a headache, that does not exclude dangerous secondary causes! Jeff: And what are the life threatening headaches? Life-threatening headaches include subarachnoid hemorrhage, cervical Artery Dissection, which includes both vertebral Artery Dissection and carotid artery dissection, cerebral Venous Thrombosis, idiopathic intracranial hypertension, giant cell arteritis, and posterior reversible encephalopathy syndrome, or PRES. Nachi: Slow down for a second and let’s not skip over your favorite section.. Let’s talk pre hospital care for headache patients. Jeff: Good call! Pre-hospital care is fairly straightforward and includes a primary survey, conducting a focused neurologic exam, and assessing for red flag signs, which include focal neurologic deficits, sudden onset headache, new headache in those over 50, neck pain or stiffness, changes in visual Acuity, fever or immunocompromised State, history of malignancy, pregnancy or postpartum status, syncope, and seizure. That’s quite a list. For a visual reference, see Table 3 in the print issue. Nachi: And patients with neurologic deficits or severe sudden-onset headaches, should be transported immediately to the nearest available stroke center. Tylenol should be offered for pain management. Avoid opioids and nsaids. Jeff: Upon arrival to the emergency department, history and physical should include your standard vitals, testing neurologic function, cranial nerve testing, head and neck exam, as well as a fundoscopic exam. As was the case for your pre-hospital colleagues, you should also assess for red flag signs for life-threatening headaches. Check out tables 2, 3, and 4 for more details here. Nachi: With respect to Vital Signs, in the setting of an acute headache, severe hypertension should prompt a search for signs of end-organ damage such as hypertensive encephalopathy, intracranial Hemorrhage, PRES, and preeclampsia in pregnant women. Additionally, fever, and especially fever and neck stiffness, should raise concern for CNS infection. Jeff: For your neurologic examination, make sure to include assessments of motor strength, coordination, reflexes, sensory function, and gait. Don't forget that lesions involving the anterior circulation, such as dysarthria, cognitive impairment, and Horner syndrome may be indicative of a carotid artery dissection, whereas dizziness, vision changes, and limb weakness may be due to a vertebral Artery Dissection. Nachi: And for cranial nerve testing - pay particular attention to cranial nerves 2, 3 and 6. For cranial nerve 2 - look out for an afferent pupillary defect, or a marcus-gunn pupil, which is seen in optic neuritis, giant cell artertitis, and central retinal artery occlusion. For CN3, oculomotor nerve palsies raise concern for a posterior communicating aneurysm and SAH. And lastly, CN6 palsies, which often presents with diplopia on lateral gaze , are often seen with intracranial idiopathic hypertension and cerebral venous thrombosis, in addition to impaired visual acuity, visual field defects, and tunnel vision. Jeff: For the head and neck exam, remember that a partial horner syndrome, with miosis and ptosis without anhidrosis, may be indicative of a cervical artery dissection. Unfortunately, if the patient presents acutely, their only complaint may be pain, as the neurologic sequelae may take days to develop. Nachi: Additionally, with respect to the head and neck exam, evaluate the patient for tenderness and beading along the temporal artery. Jeff: One review noted that temporal artery beading actually had the highest likelihood ratio for GCA, 4.6, whereas temporal artery tenderness only had a LR of 2.6 Nachi: And the last physical exam maneuver you should ideally perform is a fundoscopic exam for papilledema, which is often seen in IIH, malignant hypertension, and CVT. Jeff: Perfect so that rounds out the physical, next we have diagnostic studies. Most importantly, routine lab testing is typically of low utility in aiding in the diagnosis of headache. Nachi: Even ESR and CRP in the setting of possible giant cell arteritis have poor sensitivity and specificity to diagnose it. So even if the ESR and CRP are negative, if the suspicion for GCA is high enough, it should be treated and you should get a biopsy. Jeff: Do consider adding on a venous or arterial carboxyhemoglobin in the right clinical scenario, as CO poisoning represents an important cause of headache you wouldn’t want to miss. This is especially important at this time of year when heating systems are working overtime here in the states. Nachi: And hopefully you have a co-oximeter, so you can even check this non-invasively. Jeff: Interestingly, there may be a unique role for a d-dimer here as well. Several small studies have used the d-dimer to risk stratify patients with possible CVT. In one study a d-dimer level < 500 mcg/L had a 97% sensitivity and a negative predictive value of 99% - not bad! Nachi: Pretty impressive performance characteristics. I think that about wraps up lab work. Let’s talk radiology. Jeff: Though low yield, CT utilization is estimated at 2.5-10% of non-traumatic headaches. A non-con CT should be reserved for those with suspicion for an intracranial hemorrhage, while a contrast CT would be required in those in whom there is concern for an infectious process or space occupying lesion. Nachi: CT angio or MRI should be used in cases of possible cervical artery dissection. MRI also is the neuroimaging of choice for PRES, which is more sensitive for cerebral edema than CT. Jeff: Similarly, MRV is recommended in those with a concerning story for CVT. Nachi: To help guide your emergent neuroimaging utilization, ACEP suggests imaging in those with headache and an abnormal finding on neuro exam, those with new and sudden-onset severe headache, HIV positive patients with new headache, and those over 50 with a new headache. Jeff: With that in mind, let’s dive a bit deeper into the use of CT for SAH, a topic which doesn’t get a ding sound, but is certainly critically important. Recent literature have found that a CT within 6 hours of symptom onset has a sensitivity and specificity and negative predictive value of 100%. In addition, one 2016 study demonstrated a LR of 0.01 in those with a negative HCT within 6 hours. These are really important results because that means SAH is essentially ruled out with a negative study. Nachi: Unfortunately, the 2008 ACEP guideline and 2012 AHA guidelines still recommend a lumbar puncture in those being worked up for SAH. Luckily the ACEP guideline is currently being revised so your decision to forego the LP with a negative HCT in the first 6 hours will likely also be backed by ACEP in the near future. Jeff: That’s a nice transition into our next test - the LP. Since LP carries a risk of herniation, in those with signs of increased ICP, make sure to get appropriate neuroimaging before attempting the puncture. In those without signs of increased ICP, no imaging is necessary. Nachi: While the position in which the LP is performed doesn’t matter as much when ruling out infection or SAH, in those with suspected IIH, make sure to obtain an opening pressure with the patient lying in the lateral decubitus position. An opening pressure of greater than 25 is often seen in IIH. Jeff: And the LP in the setting of IIH is not only diagnostic but also potentially therapeutic, as the removal of 1 ml of CSF can lower the pressure by 1 cm of H20 and potentially relieve the patient’s symptoms. Nachi: Always rewarding to diagnose and treat simultaneously... Jeff: Absolutely. But back to the LP for SAH for a second or two. When evaluating for a subarachnoid hemorrhage, you’ll often note an opening pressure of greater than 20 with persistent RBC in all tubes. Nachi: While there are no RBC cutoffs, one study found no patients with a SAH with less than 100 RBC in the final tube. In contrast, greater than 10,000 RBC increased the odds by a factor of 6. In addition, one 2015 study found that patients without xanthrochromia and less than 2000 RBC were effectively ruled out of having a SAH with a combined sensitivity of 100% Jeff: Lots of 100% sensitivities and specificities being thrown around today, which is definitely not the norm. No complaints here, I’ll take it. Anyway, the last test to discuss is our good friend the ultrasound, specifically the ocular ultrasound. Nachi: Examining the optic nerve sheath 3 mm posterior to the globe, an optic nerve sheath diameter of 5 mm or greater is predictive of an ICP greater than 20. Jeff: Keep in mind that this may expedite the work up, though a normal diameter does not rule out increased ICP, so a head CT may still be indicated. Nachi: Alright, so we’ve talked a lot about testing, both lab and imaging, and we’ve mentioned a bunch of pathologies, but let’s spend a few minutes going over the specifics of each. Jeff: Let’s start with SAH. SAH account for 1% of all headache visits to the ED. Most nontraumatic SAH are caused by aneurysm rupture. A missed diagnosis of SAH can have a case-fatality rate as high as 50% Nachi: Although 75% of SAH patients report an abrupt onset, objective neck stiffness has the highest likelihood ratio of 6.6. Other important features include LOC, neurologic deficit, subjective neck stiffness, photophobia, and onset during exertion or intercourse. Jeff: Additionally, approximately 20% of patients with a SAH have warning signs of a sentinel bleed including headaches, cranial nerve palsies, neck pain, or nausea and vomiting. Nachi: In order to aid you in diagnosing a SAH, you should consider the ottawa SAH Rule which has a 100% sensitivity and a 15% specificity. To use this rule you must be between 15 and 40 with a GCS of 15 and present with a headache with maximal intensity within 1 hour of onset. If you meet those inclusion criteria, and you have no neurologic deficits, no neck pain or stiffness, no witnessed LOC, no onset during exertion, no limitation of neck flexion, and no thunderclap onset, you can essentially rule out a SAH. Jeff: While the ottawa SAH rule has been prospectively validated, know that this study has been challenged for its interobserver variability, but in any case it still provides helpful red flags to consider. If your patient is found to have a SAH, a CT angiogram and neurosurgical consultation should be considered immediately. Nachi: In addition to monitoring ABCs, early care involves the administration of analgesics and anti-emetics. Also consider elevating the head of the bed to 30 deg, which may also improve venous drainage and decrease ICP. Jeff: In terms of BP management, guidelines from the american stroke association recommend targeting a SBP of 160 with a titratable agent like nicardipine or clevidipine. Nachi: In addition, nimodipine, 60 mg q4h, should be given to those with aneurysmal SAH to improve outcomes. Jeff: and any role for anti-epileptics? Nachi: That’s controversial and the authors state it may be considered in the immediate post-hemorrhagic period and should be limited to a 3-7 day course with longer courses required in special populations. Jeff: The next pathology to discuss is cervical artery dissections, which account for 2% of all strokes and nearly 20% of strokes in those 50 and under. cervical artery dissections are most commonly due to trauma, but can occur spontaneously. Nachi: Risk factors include Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, osteogenesis imperfecta, and Marfan syndrome. Jeff: Regardless of the etiology, the management of cervical artery dissections is primarily medical with IV heparin followed by warfarin or a direct oral anticoagulant in those with extracranial dissections, and antiplatelet therapy like aspirin or clopidogrel in those with intracranial dissections. Nachi: Thanks to the CADISP study, we know there is no difference in mortality or neurologic outcome when choosing between antiplatelet therapy and anticoagulation. Jeff: Next we have cerebral venous thrombosis. This typically presents with a gradual onset headache. Though it can happen to anybody, cerebral venous thrombosis typically results from thrombotic disease. Nachi: Important risk factors include oral contraceptive use, pregnancy and postpartum states, Factor V Leiden deficiency, and lupus. Jeff: Treatment for CVT is controversial due to a high risk of hemorrhage and hemorrhagic transformation. According to the best available evidence, anticoagulation is the standard therapy with full dose anticoagulation of low-molecular weight heparin or heparin as a bridge to warfarin. Nachi: Yeah, it’s really a tough spot to be in as one third end up having some form of hemorrhage too…. Jeff: Perhaps yet another good place for shared decision making? Nachi: Honestly, it’s a good thought, but anticoagulation is the guideline recommendation, so I think that is likely the best route in this case. Jeff: Great point. Next we have idiopathic intracranial hypertension. This is typically associated with obese women of childbearing age. It may also be due to hypervitaminosis A from excessive dietary intake and even drugs like the retinoids used in treating dermatologic conditions and cancers. Nachi: idiopathic intracranial hypertension can be diagnosed by the modified dandy criteria which are found in table 8 on page 11. Let’s just run through the criteria. Jeff: The modified Dandy criteria for idiopathic intracranial hypertension include: signs and symptoms of increased ICP, no other neurologic abnormalities or altered level of consciousness, ICP > 20 on LP with normal CSF composition, neuroimaging without another etiology for intracranial hypertension, and lastly no other identified cause of intracranial hypertension. Nachi: And as we mentioned a few minutes ago, an LP can be both diagnostic and therapeutic, though the relief is likely temporary Jeff: For more permanent treatment, weight loss is the key. Acetazolamide, 250 mg to 500 BID is the first line pharmacotherapy. Combined with weight loss, acetazolamide and a low sodium diet has been shown to improve visual field function. Nachi: And if this fails, topiramate, furosemide, and in the worst case surgical options like CSF shunting, venous sinus stenting, and optic sheath fenestration are all options. Jeff: I imagine taking a diuretic for a headache could be a real hindrance on quality of life, though I suppose it’s better than risking vision loss or having a significant neurosurgery. Nachi: Agreed. Next we have giant cell arteritis. GCA is rare, with a prevalence of

Welcome to Everything Trying to Kill You, the comedy podcast that talks about horror movies! In episode 32 about David Slade’s film, Hard Candy, your hosts (Mary Kay, Mary, and Maegan) answer important questions like these:How old were you when you first watched this movie? What changed for you watching it this time? What was your AIM screenname? Did you get into chat rooms? Did Hayley Charles Manson this situation? Is that better or worse? Did Hayley actually break down or ever question herself? Is it hard to know the truth? Is this a Minority Report idea, or is Jeff still guilty because he takes a 14-year-old on a date, and that thing a pedophile maketh? Do either of them understand where the social boundaries are? Whether he actually did it or not, did Jeff actually do it? Is Hayley the villain? Is she irredeemable? What are the odds that Judy showed up just because she thought Hayley was shady as fuck? Does Jeff not-murdering Donna make him any less guilty than if he was just there? Than if he only took pictures of them? That if he only had “consensual” sex with a 14-year-old? What is the point of the pink bedroom? What is the point of the shaky cam? What was the point of not sexualizing the violence between our main characters (as is so often done in horror)? How does Hayley’s gender effect the audience perspective of the film? Does Hayley experience doubt? If so, why does she suddenly doubt herself? Why doesn’t Hayley want to ACTUALLY castrate Jeff? Do you like the casting of Patrick Wilson and Ellen Page? What makes this sick fuck think that as soon as Hayley feels a little regret, he tries to get it in with her again? What was the worst thing Jeff did? What would be the one thing a dude could have in his room that would make you U-turn IMMEDIATELY? Hard Candy (2005)– Directed by David Slade and written by Brian Nelson. Performances by Ellen Page, Patrick Wilson, and Sandra Oh. Genre: Horror, Revenge, Thriller, Suspense, Vigilante Where to watch: Amazon Summary: Hayley (Ellen Page) is a precocious teenager who goes to a coffee shop to meet Jeff (Patrick Wilson), the photographer she met on the Internet. Jeff thinks he is in for a real treat, but Hayley plays a trick on him. After drugging Jeff and tying him down, Hayley reveals that she knows Jeff preys on teenage girls and she has a plan to wring a confession from him.

  Jeff: Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we’re talking about a topic… Nachi: … woah wait, slow down for a minute, before we begin this month’s episode – we should take a quick pause to wish all of our listeners a happy new year! Thanks for your regular listenership and feedback. Jeff: And we’re actually hitting the two year mark since we started this podcast. At 25 episodes now, this is sort of our silver anniversary. Nachi: We have covered a ton of topics in emergency medicine so far, and we are looking forward to reviewing a lot more evidence based medicine with you all going forward. Jeff: With that, let’s get into the first episode of 2019 – the topic this month is first trimester pregnancy emergencies: recognition and management. Nachi: This month’s issue was authored by Dr. Ryan Pedigo, you may remember him from the June 2017 episode on dental emergencies, though he is perhaps better known as the director of undergraduate medical education at Harbor-UCLA Medical center. In addition, this issue was peer reviewed by Dr. Jennifer Beck-Esmay, assistant residency director at Mount Sinai St. Luke’s, and Dr. Taku Taira, the associate director of undergraduate medical education and associate clerkship director at LA County and USC department of Emergency Medicine. Jeff: For this review, Dr. Pedigo had to review a large body of literature, including thousands of articles, guidelines from the American college of obstetricians and gynecologists or ACOG, evidence based Practice bulletins, ACOG committee opinions, guidelines from the American college of radiology, the infectious diseases society of America, clinical policies from the American college of emergency physicians, and finally a series of reviews in the Cochrane database. Nachi: There is a wealth of literature on this topic and Dr. Pedigo comments that the relevant literature is overall “very good.” This may be the first article in many months for which there is an overall very good quality of literature. Jeff: It’s great to know that there is good literature on this topic. It’s incredibly important as we are not dealing with a single life here, as we usually do... we are quite literally dealing with potentially two lives as the fetus moves towards viability. With opportunities to improve outcomes for both the fetus and the mother, I’m confident that this episode will be worth your time. Nachi: Oh, and speaking of being worth your time…. Don’t forget that if you’re listening to this episode, you can claim your CME credit. Remember, the indicates an answer to one of the CME questions so make sure to keep the issue handy. Jeff: Let’s get started with some background. First trimester emergencies are not terribly uncommon in pregnancy. One study reported 85% experience nausea and vomiting. Luckily only 3% of these progressed to hyperemesis gravidarum. In addition, somewhere between 7-27% experience vaginal bleeding or miscarriage. Only 2% of these will be afflicted with an ectopic pregnancy. Overall, the maternal death rate is about 17 per 100,000 with huge racial-ethnic disparities. Nachi: And vaginal bleeding in pregnancy occurs in nearly 25% of patients. Weeks 4-8 represent the peak time for this. The heavier the bleeding, the higher the risk of miscarriage. Jeff: Miscarriage rates vary widely based on age, with an overall rate of 7-27%. This rises to nearly 40% risk in those over 40. And nearly half of miscarriages are due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: For patient who have a threatened miscarriage in the first trimester, there is a 2-fold increased risk of subsequent maternal and fetal adverse outcomes. Jeff: So key points here, since I think the wording and information you choose to share with often scared and worried women is important – nearly 25% of women experience bleeding in their first trimester. Not all of these will go on to miscarriages, though the risk does increase with maternal age. And of those that miscarry, nearly 50% were due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: So can we prevent a miscarriage, once the patient is bleeding…? Jeff: Short answer, no, longer answer, we’ll get to treatment in a few minutes. For now, let’s continue outlining the various first trimester emergencies. Next up, ectopic pregnancy… Nachi: An ectopic pregnancy is implantation of a fertilized ovum outside of the endometrial cavity. This occurs in up to 2% of pregnancies. About 98% occur in the fallopian tube. Risk factors for an ectopic pregnancy include salpingitis, history of STDs, history of PID, a prior ectopic, and smoking. Jeff: Interestingly, with respect to smoking, there is a dose-relationship between smoking and ectopic pregnancies. Simple advice here: don’t smoke if you are pregnant or trying to get pregnant. Nachi: Pretty sound advice. In addition, though an IUD is not a risk factor for an ectopic pregnancy, if you do become pregnant while you have in IUD in place, over half of these may end up being ectopic. Jeff: It’s also worth mentioning a more obscure related disease pathology here – the heterotopic pregnancy -- one in which there is an IUP and an ectopic pregnancy simultaneously. Nachi: Nausea and vomiting, though not as scary as miscarriages or an ectopic pregnancy, represent a fairly common pathophysiologic response in the first trimester -- with the vast majority of women experiencing nausea and vomiting. And as we mentioned earlier, only 3% of these progress to hyperemesis gravidarum. Jeff: And while nausea and vomiting clearly sucks, they seem to actually be protective of pregnancy loss, with a hazard ratio of 0.2. Nachi: Although this may be protective of pregnancy loss, nausea and vomiting can really decrease the quality of life in pregnancy -- with one study showing that about 25% of women with severe nausea and vomiting had actually considered pregnancy termination. 75% of those women also stated they would not want to get pregnant again because of these symptoms. Jeff: So certainly a big issue.. Two other common first trimester emergency are asymptomatic bacteriuria and UTIs. In pregnant patients, due to anatomical and physiologic changes in the GU tract – such as hydroureteronephrosis that occurs by the 7th week and urinary stasis due to bladder displacement – asymptomatic bacteriuria is a risk factor for developing pyelonephritis. Nachi: And pregnant women are, of course, still susceptible to the normal ailments of young adult women like acute appendicitis, which is the most common surgical problem in pregnancy. Jeff: Interestingly, based on epidemiologic data, pregnant women are less likely to have appendicitis than age-matched non-pregnant woman. I’d like to think that there is a good pathophysiologic explanation there, but I don’t have a clue as to why that might be. Nachi: Additionally, the RLQ is the the most common location of pain from appendicitis in pregnancies of all gestational ages. Peritonitis is actually slightly more common in pregnant patients, with an odds ratio of 1.3. Jeff: Alright, so I think we can put that intro behind us and move on to the differential. Nachi: When considering the differential for abdominal pain or vaginal bleeding in the first trimester, you have to think broadly. Among gynecologic causes, you should consider miscarriage, septic abortion, ectopic pregnancy, corpus luteum cyst, ovarian torsion, vaginal or cervical lacerations, and PID. For non-gynecologic causes, you should also consider appendicitis, cholecystitis, hepatitis, and pyelonephritis. Jeff: In the middle of that laundry list you mentioned there is one pathology which I think merits special attention - ovarian torsion. Don’t forget that patients undergoing ovarian stimulation as part of assisted reproductive technology are at a particularly increased risk due to the larger size of the ovaries. Nachi: Great point. Up next we have prehospital care... Jeff: Always a great section. First, prehospital providers should attempt to elicit an ob history. Including the number of weeks’ gestation, LMP, whether an IUP has already been confirmed, prior hx of ectopic, and amount of vaginal bleeding. In addition, providers should consider an early destination consult both to select the correct destination and to begin the process of mobilizing resources early in those patients who really need them, such as those with hemodynamic instability. Nachi: As with most pathologies, the more time you give the receiving facility to prepare, the better the care will be, especially the early care, which is critical. Jeff: Now that the patient has arrived in the ED we can begin our H&P. Nachi: When eliciting the patient’s obstetrical history, it’s common to use the G’s and Ps. This can be further annotated using the 4-digit TPAL method, that’s term-preterm-abortus-living. Jeff: With respect to vaginal bleeding, make sure to ask about the number of pads and how this relates to the woman’s normal number of pads. In addition, make sure to ask about vaginal discharge or even about the passage of tissue. Nachi: You will also need to elicit whether or not the patient has a history of a prior ectopic pregnancies as this is a major risk for future ectopics. And ask about previous sexually transmitted infections also. Jeff: And, of course, make sure to elicit a history of assisted reproductive technology, as this increases the risk of a heterotopic pregnancy. Nachi: Let’s move on to the physical. While you are certainly going to perform your standard focused physical exam, just as you would for any non-pregnant woman - what does the evidence say about the pelvic exam? I know this is a HOTLY debated topic among EM Docs. Jeff: Oh it certainly is. Dr. Pedigo takes a safe, but fair approach, noting, “A pelvic exam should always be performed if the emergency clinician suspects that it would change management, such as identifying the source of bleeding, or identifying an STD or PID.” However, it is noteworthy that the only real study he cites on this topic, an RCT of pelvic vs no pelvic in those with a confirmed IUP and first trimester bleeding, found no difference between the two groups. Obviously, the pelvic group reported more discomfort. Nachi: You did leave out one important fact about the study enrollment - they only enrolled about 200 of 700 intended patients. Jeff: Oh true, so a possibly underpowered study, but it’s all we’ve got on the topic. I think I’m still going to do pelvic exams, but it’s something to think about. Nachi: Moving on, all unstable patients with vaginal bleeding and no IUP should be assumed to have an ectopic until proven otherwise. Ruptured ectopics can manifest with a number of physical exam findings including abdominal tenderness, with peritoneal signs, or even with bradycardia due to vagal stimulation in the peritoneum. Jeff: Perhaps most importantly, no history or physical alone can rule in or out an ectopic pregnancy, for that you’ll need testing and imaging or operative findings. Nachi: And that’s a perfect segue into our next section - diagnostic studies. Jeff: Up first is the urine pregnancy test. A UPT should be obtained in all women of reproductive age with abdominal pain or vaginal bleeding, and likely other complaints too, though we’re not focusing on them now. Nachi: The UPT is a great test, with nearly 100% sensitivity, even in the setting of very dilute urine. False positives are certainly plausible, with likely culprits being recent pregnancy loss, exogenous HCG, or malignancy. Jeff: And not only is the sensitivity great, but it’s usually positive just 6-8 days after fertilization. Nachi: While the UPT is fairly straight forward, let’s talk about the next few tests in the context of specific disease entities, as I think that may make things a bit simpler -- starting with bHCG in the context of miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy. Jeff: Great starting point since there is certainly a lot of debate about the discriminatory zone. So to get us all on the same page, the discriminatory zone is the b-HCG at which an IUP is expected to be seen on ultrasound. Generally 1500 is used as the cutoff. This corresponds nicely to a 2013 retrospective study demonstrating a bHCG threshold for the fetal pole to be just below 1400. Nachi: However, to actually catch 99% of gestational sacs, yolk sacs, and fetal poles, one would need cutoffs of around 3500, 18000, and 48,000 respectively -- much higher. Jeff: For this reason, if you want to use a discriminatory zone, ACOG recommends a conservatively high 3,500, as a cutoff. Nachi: I think that’s an understated point in this article, the classic teaching of a 1500 discriminatory zone cutoff is likely too low. Jeff: Right, which is why I think many ED physicians practice under the mantra that it’s an ectopic until proven otherwise. Nachi: Certainly a safe approach. Jeff: Along those lines, lack of an IUP with a bHCG above whatever discriminatory zone you are using does not diagnose an ectopic, it merely suggests a non-viable pregnancy of undetermined location. Nachi: And if you don’t identify an IUP, serial bHCGs can be really helpful. As a rule of thumb -- in cases of a viable IUP -- b-HCG typically doubles within 48 hours and at a minimum should rise 53%. Jeff: In perhaps one of the most concerning things I’ve read in awhile, one study showed that ⅓ of patients with an ectopic had a bCHG rise of 53% in 48h and 20% of patients with ectopics had a rate of decline typical to that of a miscarriage. Nachi: Definitely concerning, but this is all the more reason you need to employ our favorite imaging modality… the ultrasound. Jeff: All patients with a positive pregnancy test and vaginal bleeding should receive an ultrasound performed by either an emergency physician or by radiology. Combined with a pelvic exam, this can give you almost all the data necessary to make the diagnosis, even if you don’t find an IUP. Nachi: And yes, there is good data to support ED ultrasound for this indication, both transabdominal and transvaginal, assuming the emergency physician is credentialed to do so. A 2010 Meta-Analysis found a NPV of 99.96% when an er doc identified an IUP on bedside ultrasound. So keep doing your bedside scans with confidence. Jeff: Before we move on to other diagnostic tests, let’s discuss table 2 on page 7 to refresh on key findings of each of the different types of miscarriage. For a threatened abortion, the os would be closed with an IUP seen on ultrasound. For a completed abortion, you would expect a closed OS with no IUP on ultrasound with a previously documented IUP. Patients may or may not note the passage of products of conception. Nachi: A missed abortion presents with a closed os and a nonviable fetus on ultrasound. Findings such as a crown-rump length of 7 mm or greater without cardiac motion is one of several criteria to support this diagnosis. Jeff: An inevitable abortion presents with an open OS and an IUP on ultrasound. Along similar lines, an incomplete abortion presents with an open OS and partially expelled products on ultrasound. Nachi: And lastly, we have the septic abortion, which is sort of in a category of its own. A septic abortion presents with either an open or closed OS with essentially any finding on ultrasound in the setting of an intrauterine infection and a fever. Jeff: I’ve only seen this two times, and both women were incredibly sick upon presentation. Such a sad situation. Nachi: For sure. Before we move on to other tests, one quick note on the topic of heterotopic pregnancies: because the risk in the general population is so incredibly low, the finding of an IUP essentially rules out an ectopic pregnancy assuming the patient hasn’t been using assisted reproductive technology. In those that are using assisted reproductive technology, the risk rises to 1 in 100, so finding an IUP, in this case, doesn’t necessarily rule out a heterotopic pregnancy. Jeff: Let’s move on to diagnostic studies for patients with nausea and vomiting. Typically, no studies are indicated beyond whatever you would order to rule out other serious pathology. Checking electrolytes and repleting them should be considered in those with severe symptoms. Nachi: For those with symptoms suggestive of a UTI, a urinalysis and culture should be sent. Even if the urinalysis is negative, the culture may still have growth. Treat asymptomatic bacteriuria and allow the culture growth to guide changes in antibiotic selection. Jeff: It’s worth noting, however, that a 2016 systematic review found no reliable evidence supporting routine screening for asymptomatic bacteriuria, so send a urinalysis and culture only if there is suspicion for a UTI. Nachi: For those with concern for appendicitis, while ultrasound is a viable imaging modality, MRI is gaining favor. Both are specific tests, however one study found US to visualize the appendix only 7% of the time in pregnant patients. Jeff: Even more convincingly, one 2016 meta analysis found MRI to have a sensitivity and specificity of 94 and 97% respectively suggesting that a noncontrast MRI should be the first line imaging modality for potential appendicitis. Nachi: You kind of snuck it in there, but this is specifically a non-contrast MRI. Whereas a review of over a million pregnancies found no associated fetal risk with routine non-contrast MRI, gadolinium-enhanced MRI has been associated with increased rates of stillbirth, neonatal death, and rheumatologic and inflammatory skin conditions. Jeff: CT is also worth mentioning since MRI and even ultrasound may not be available to all of our listeners. If you do find yourself in such a predicament, or you have an inconclusive US without MRI available, a CT scan may be warranted as the delay in diagnosis and subsequent peritonitis has been found to increase the risk of preterm birth 4-fold. Nachi: Right, and a single dose of ionizing radiation actually does not exceed the threshold dose for fetal harm. Jeff: Let’s talk about the Rh status and prevention of alloimmunization. While there are no well-designed studies demonstrating benefit to administering anti-D immune globulin to Rh negative patients, ACOG guidelines state “ whether to administer anti-D immune globulin to a patient with threatened pregnancy loss and a live embryo or fetus at or before 12 weeks of gestation is controversial, and no evidence-based recommendation can be made.” Nachi: Unfortunately, that’s not particularly helpful for us. But if you are going to treat an unsensitized Rh negative female with vaginal bleeding while pregnant with Rh-immune globulin, they should receive 50 mcg IM of Rh-immune globulin within 72 hours, or the 300 mcg dose if that is all that is available. It’s also reasonable to administer Rh(d)-immune globulin to any pregnant female with significant abdominal trauma. Jeff: Moving on to the treatment for miscarriages - sadly there isn’t much to offer here. For those with threatened abortions, the vast majority will go on to a normal pregnancy. Bedrest had been recommended in the past, but there is little data to support this practice. Nachi: For incomplete miscarriages, if visible, products should be removed and you should consider sending those products to pathology for analysis, especially if the patient has had recurrent miscarriages. Jeff: For those with a missed abortion or incomplete miscarriages, options include expectant management, medical management or surgical management, all in consultation with an obstetrician. It’s noteworthy that a 2012 Cochrane review failed to find clear superiority for one strategy over another. This result was for the most part re-confirmed in a 2017 cochrane review. The latter study did find, however, that surgical management in the stable patient resulted in lower rates of incomplete miscarriage, bleeding, and need for transfusion. Nachi: For expectant management, 50-80% will complete their miscarriage within 7-10 days. Jeff: For those choosing medical management, typically with 800 mcg of intravaginal misoprostol, one study found this to be 91% effective in 7 days. This approach is preferred in low-resource settings. Nachi: And lastly, remember that all of these options are only options for stable patients. Surgical management is mandatory for patients with significant hemorrhage or hemodynamic instability. Jeff: Since the best evidence we have doesn’t suggest a crystal clear answer, you should rely on the patient’s own preferences and a discussion with their obstetrician. For this reason and due to the inherent difficulty of losing a pregnancy, having good communication is paramount. Nachi: Expert consensus recommends 6 key aspects of appropriate communication in such a setting: 1 assess the meaning of the pregnancy loss, give the news in a culturally competent and supportive manner, inform the family that grief is to be expected and give them permission to grieve in their own way, learn to be comfortable sharing the products of conception should the woman wish to see them, 5. provide support for whatever path she chooses, 6. and provide resources for grief counselors and support groups. Jeff: All great advice. The next treatment to discuss is that for pregnancy of an unknown location and ectopic pregnancies. Nachi: All unstable patients or those with suspected or proven ectopic or heterotopic pregnancies should be immediately resuscitated and taken for surgical intervention. Jeff: For those that are stable, with normal vitals, and no ultrasound evidence of a ruptured ectopic, with no IUP on ultrasound, -- that is, those with a pregnancy of unknown location, they should be discharged with follow up in 48 hours for repeat betaHCG and ultrasound. Nachi: And while many patients only need a single additional beta check, some may need repeat 48 hour exams until a diagnosis is established. Jeff: For those that are stable with a confirmed tubal ectopic, you again have a variety of treatment options, none being clearly superior. Nachi: Treatment options here include IM methotrexate, or a salpingostomy or salpingectomy. Jeff: Do note, however, that a bHCG over 5000, cardiac activity on US, and inability to follow up are all relative contraindications to methotrexate treatment. Absolute contraindications to methotrexate include cytopenia, active pulmonary disease, active peptic ulcer disease, hepatic or renal dysfunction, and breastfeeding. Nachi: Such decisions, should, of course, be made in conjunction with the obstetrician. Jeff: Always good to make a plan with the ob. Moving on to the treatment of nausea and vomiting in pregnancy, ACOG recommends pyridoxine, 10-25 mg orally q8-q6 with or without doxylamine 12.5 mg PO BID or TID. This is a level A recommendation as first-line treatment! Nachi: In addition, ACOG also recommends nonpharmacologic options such as acupressure at the P6 point on the wrist with a wrist band. Ginger is another nonpharmacologic intervention that has been shown to be efficacious - 250 mg by mouth 4 times a day. Jeff: So building an algorithm, step one would be to consider ginger and pressure at the P6 point. Step two would be pyridoxine and doxylamine. If all of these measures fail, step three would be IV medication - with 10 mg IV of metoclopramide being the agent of choice. Nachi: By the way, ondansetron carries a very small risk of fetal cardiac abnormalities, so the other options are of course preferred. Jeff: In terms of fluid choice for the actively vomiting first trimester woman, both D5NS and NS are appropriate choices, with slightly decreased nausea in the group receiving D5NS in one randomized trial of pregnant patients admitted for vomiting to an overnight observation unit. Nachi: Up next for treatment we have asymptomatic bacteriuria. As we stated previously, asymptomatic bacteriuria should be treated. This is due to anatomical and physiologic changes which put these women at higher risk than non-pregnant women. Jeff: And this recommendation comes from the 2005 IDSA guidelines. In one trial, treatment of those with asymptomatic bacteriuria with nitrofurantoin reduced the incidence of developing pyelonephritis from 2.4% to 0.6%. Nachi: And this trial specifically examined the utility of nitrofurantoin. Per a 2010 and 2011 Cochrane review, there is not evidence to recommend one antibiotic over another, so let your local antibiograms guide your treatment. Jeff: In general, amoxicillin or cephalexin for a full 7 day course could also be perfectly appropriate. Nachi: A 2017 ACOG Committee Opinion analyzed nitrofurantoin and sulfonamide antibiotics for association with birth defects. Although safe in the second and third trimester, they recommend use in the first trimester -- only when no other suitable alternatives are available. Jeff: For those, who unfortunately do go on to develop pyelo, 1g IV ceftriaxone should be your drug of choice. Interestingly, groups have examined outpatient care with 2 days of daily IM ceftriaxone vs inpatient IV antibiotic therapy and they found that there may be a higher than acceptable risk in the outpatient setting as several required eventual admission and one developed septic shock in their relatively small trial. Nachi: And the last treatment to discuss is for pregnant patient with acute appendicitis. Despite a potential shift in the standard of care for non pregnant patients towards antibiotics-only as the initial treatment, due to the increased risk of serious complications for pregnant women with an acute appy, the best current evidence supports a surgical pathway. Jeff: Perfect, so that wraps up treatment. We have a few special considerations this month, the first of which revolves around ionizing radiation. Ideally, one should limit the amount of ionizing radiation exposure during pregnancy, however avoiding it all together may lead to missed or delayed diagnoses and subsequently worse outcomes. Nachi: It’s worth noting that the American College of Radiology actually lists several radiographs that are such low exposure that checking a urine pregnancy test isn’t even necessary. These include any imaging of the head and neck, extremity CT, and chest x-ray. Jeff: Of course, an abdomen and pelvis CT carries the greatest potential risk. However, if necessary, it’s certainly appropriate as long as there is a documented discussion of the risk and benefits with the patient. Nachi: And regarding iodinated contrast for CT -- it appears to present no known harm to the fetus, but this is based on limited data. ACOG recommends using contrast only if “absolutely required”. Jeff: Right and that’s for iodinated contrasts. Gadolinium should always be avoided. Let me repeat that Gadolinium should always be avoided Nachi: Let’s also briefly touch on a controversial topic -- that of using qualitative urine point of care tests with blood instead of urine. In short, some devices are fda-approved for serum, but not whole blood. Clinicians really just need to know the equipment and characteristics at their own site. It is worth noting that there have been studies on determining whether time can be saved by using point of care blood testing instead of urine for the patient who is unable to provide a prompt sample. Initial study conclusions are promising. But again, you need to know the characteristics of the test at your ER. Jeff: One more controversy in this issue is that of expectant management for ectopic pregnancy. A 2015 randomized trial found similar outcomes for IM methotrexate compared to placebo for tubal ectopics. Inclusion criteria included hemodynamic stability, initial b hcg < 2000, declining b hcg titers 48 hours prior to treatment, and visible tubal pregnancy on trans vaginal ultrasound. Another 2017 multicenter randomized trial found similar results. Nachi: But of course all of these decisions should be made in conjunction with your obstetrician colleagues. Jeff: Let’s move on to disposition. HDS patients who are well-appearing with a pregnancy of undetermined location should be discharged with a 48h beta hcg recheck and ultrasound. All hemodynamically unstable patients, should of course be admitted and likely taken directly to the OR. Nachi: Also, all pregnant patients with acute pyelonephritis require admission. Outpatient tx could be considered in consultation with ob. Jeff: Patient with hyperemesis gravidarum who do not improve despite treatment in the ED should also be admitted. Nachi: Before we close out the episode, let’s go over some key points and clinical pearls... J Overall, roughly 25% of pregnant women will experience vaginal bleeding and 7-27% of pregnant women will experience a miscarriage 2. Becoming pregnant with an IUD significantly raises the risk of ectopic pregnancy. 3. Ovarian stimulation as part of assisted reproductive technology places pregnant women at increased risk of ovarian torsion. 4. Due to anatomical and physiologic changes in the genitourinary tract, asymptomatic bacteriuria places pregnant women at higher risk for pyelonephritis. As such, treat asymptomatic bacteriuria according to local antibiograms. 5. A pelvic exam in the setting of first trimester bleeding is only warranted if you suspect it might change management. 6. Unstable patients with vaginal bleeding and no IUP should be assumed to have an ectopic pregnancy until proven otherwise. 7. If you are to use a discriminatory zone, ACOG recommends a beta-hCG cutoff of 3500. 8. The beta-hCG typically doubles within 48 hours during the first trimester. It should definitely rise by a minimum of 53%. 9. For patients using assisted reproductive technology, the risk of heterotopic pregnancy becomes much higher. Finding an IUP does not necessarily rule out a heterotopic pregnancy. N. Send a urine culture for patients complaining of UTI symptoms even if the urinalysis is negative. J. The most common surgical problem in pregnancy is appendicitis. N, If MRI is not available and ultrasound was inconclusive, CT may be warranted for assessing appendicitis. The risk of missing or delaying the diagnosis may outweigh the risk of radiation. J. ACOG recommends using iodinated contrast only if absolutely required. N. For stable patients with a pregnancy of unknown location, plan for discharge with follow up in 48 hours for a repeat beta-hCG and ultrasound. J For nausea and vomiting in pregnancy, try nonpharmacologic treatments like acupressure at the P6 point on the wrist or ginger supplementation. First line pharmacologic treatment is pyridoxine. Doxylamine can be added. Ondansetron may increase risk of fetal cardiac abnormalities N So that wraps up episode 24 - First Trimester Pregnancy Emergencies: Recognition and Management. J: Additional materials are available on our website for Emergency Medicine Practice subscribers. If you’re not a subscriber, consider joining today. You can find out more at www.ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Subscribers get in-depth articles on hundreds of emergency medicine topics, concise summaries of the articles, calculators and risk scores, and CME credit. You’ll also get enhanced access to the podcast, including the images and tables mentioned. You can find everything you need to know at ebmedicine.net/subscribe. N: And the address for this month’s credit is ebmedicine.net/E0119, so head over there to get your CME credit. As always, the you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Lastly, be sure to find us on iTunes and rate us or leave comments there. You can also email us directly at emplify@ebmedicine.net with any comments or suggestions. Talk to you next month!  

Gretchen Evans served 27 years in the US Army, earning a bronze star, and rising to the rank of Command Sergeant Major. During her service, Gretchen survived a rocket blast which left her with hearing loss and a traumatic brain injury.  While struggling with depression after her injury, she relied on a new rope team to bring her back into the world and show her she still had the ability to find purpose by serving and leading again. Despite her injuries, Gretchen serves others as a passionate volunteer. She also achieved her No Barriers goal by finishing her book, “Leading from the Front.” On this episode of our No Barriers Podcast we connected with Gretchen remotely from her home in North Carolina. Showing her Army roots, Gretchen was early to the call and well-prepared, including with adaptive technology to communicate since she is deaf. The episode begins with Gretchen detailing her time in the Army, her many tours, and her overall love for the service. “I’ve done 9 Combat tours...I’m like a cat with 9 lives.” She was a natural leader and despite her very small frame she was a commanding force and was dedicated to her troops. After an unexpected rocket blast, Gretchen was devastated when she woke up in the hospital and learned she would never hear again. “The thing that really kicked me in the gut wasn’t even my physical injuries, what made me pause, made me afraid, was that I went from zero to hero in one second with no transition and no plan for retirement...that I wasn’t going out on my own terms.” As she was forced back into civilian life with a disability she struggled to figure out her new role. She describes the hopelessness and despair that can take over your life as a hole: “I had tried therapy, medication and those things somewhat helped but they weren’t the silver bullet. I wanted out of this hole. I was clinging to the sides to keep from falling in.” Eventually, Gretchen talks about finding No Barriers Warriors, the No Barriers programs for Veterans and on her first expedition out into the wilderness she discovers that it's not her disability that's been holding her back, it's her disconnection from other people. Being around other Veterans and having a team is what Gretchen was missing. She talks about how that was the catalyst to rediscovering her purpose - to lead teams and help others. She was still a leader at heart, just in a different capacity. “First you gotta realize you have a hole, having self awareness, and letting people into your life - realizing that helping other people - and engaging with other people who have their own holes- that’s healing.” Buy a copy of Gretchen's book: Leading From the Front Learn more about No Barriers Warriors TRANSCRIPT Erik: This is our No Barriers podcast. This is Erik Weihenmayer talking [00:00:30] from Golden, my home. We have my fellow host Jeff Evans. How are you doing today, Jeff? Jeff: Good, Erik. Good, Erik. It seems to be another shorts and t-shirts day here in the middle of winter in Colorado. Everything is going as not planned for our winter, but it's still a beautiful day here in Colorado. Erik: Dumped 12 inches yesterday I heard up in the mountains so maybe things are looking up. We're not getting much of a winter. I didn't [00:01:00] get much of a winter these last few days because I was out visiting one of our No Barriers graduates, Matt Burges, who runs this awesome organization, Freedom Fidos, training service dogs for vets. I was checking out his facility. Then I went down to Miami to meet one of our No Barrier sponsors, Tom Sullivan who founded Cabinets To Go. They have 50 something stores and they're gonna have a scholarship for vets, youth, [00:01:30] really anyone in our community to take part in one of our event, one of our programs, one person from each of those Cabinet To Go communities. That's 50 something scholarships of people that are gonna get to participate. It was a really good day connected with Tom and Cabinets. What you been up to, Jeff? Jeff: This half winter that we got here has been challenging for me, outdoor [00:02:00] perspective. It's like just when you think the ice is good enough to get in, we have a 50 degree day or 60 degree days. It's made for some challenging conditions. Things are going good for our upcoming trip to Nepal. We're gonna climb a mountain called Mera Peak, which is a 21,000 foot peak a little bit off the checking trails up to base camp. Fortunately as it plays out, [00:02:30] we have six former No Barriers participants joining us for this trip. A lot of the No Barriers messages will be percolating throughout the trip and the climb that we do. A lot of the messaging and content that we share and talk about will be centered around that idea of embracing this journey and being together and really soaking up the idea of fellowship. I'm really excited about [00:03:00] that. I know you and I will not see each other in Nepal at least this spring. You're heading back there in June with our guest for the day. Why don't you give us a little bit of a 30,000 foot view of that? Erik: It's gonna be so fun. I can't wait. I don't get into the field as much as I'd like with our group. We're gonna be leading a youth group to Nepal and we have kids signed up of all abilities, not just kids with [00:03:30] physical disabilities but kids with invisible disabilities. Kids, perhaps, who have been bullied and want to use a trip like this as a platform for social change to bring an experience like this home and create their own No Barriers pledge to elevate their community in some way. We're gonna be heading to [Muston 00:03:50], which is a remote area of Nepal. It's up on the Tibetan Plateau. We're gonna be exchanging with a bunch of villages and schools and [00:04:00] school for the deaf, some disability organizations and really trying to understand, culturally, how issues happen, how people break through barriers in Nepal, what kind of barriers haven't they been able to breakthrough yet. We're gonna be studying some sustainable projects that this great partner organization, the Z Foundation, have created. They get community buy in and then they have the villagers do [00:04:30] sweat labor and build sewage and electric, hydro-electric, all kinds of cool projects to bring modernization to those villages. It's gonna be an amazing trip. We're recruiting right now. Great transition because our next guest is going to be one of the leaders on this trip. I am so thrilled to be speaking with you today. Jeff, why don't you introduce our guest. Jeff: Gretchen has ... probably within the past [00:05:00] two years, she participated in various warriors female trip down in the Gila wilderness. She's got an amazing story. She served 27 years in the army all the way to, I believe, one of the highest ranks in CO ranks of command sergeant major. During her service, she was involved in a rocket blast, which impacted her [00:05:30] obviously in a lot of different ways. It caused a significant traumatic brain injury as well as significant hearing loss. We get introduced to Gretchen after these life changing episodes and we see them thriving. Of course, I want to hear more about Gretchen's story, about her journey that she's been on [00:06:00] to go to the point to the fact that she just wrote a book called Leading From the Front, which I'm gonna read for sure. The fact that she's now gonna step off with you and go to Nepal. Gretchen, welcome to the podcast. We're excited to hear some of your story. Erik: Gretchen, you served for 27 years serving our country. That's a long time. [00:06:30] Tell us why you chose to do that. Gretchen: Initially, honestly, it was just out of survival. I lost both of my parents when I was a teenager. I was attempting to become financially self-supportive. It just became really difficult. The military offered a job and training and income [00:07:00] and all that kind of stuff. I went down and enlisted in the army with the thought that I would stay in for four years and take advantage of their educational benefits, get out and finish college. What I really found was an intense love for what the military did and what it represented and the people that I served with. Four years turned into being 27. Jeff: You were telling me, Gretchen, you met your husband. I [00:07:30] find it interesting that he's a navy guy and you're an army gal. Can you tell us how that played out. Gretchen: Yeah, so my husband, Robert, was a navy chaplain in '06. He was sent to Afghanistan to be in charge of all the chaplains in Afghanistan. At the time, I was the senior command sergeant major in Afghanistan of all the installations. Everything good and bad came [00:08:00] across both our desks because the nature of both of our jobs. We really had this intense friendship and respect for each other. It came with the good news, it also came with the bad news when we had casualties and had to notify families and things. Robert left after a seven month tour and went home. I guess about a month later, I get this really lengthy letter full of nonsense until the last paragraph. [00:08:30] Then he said, "Could you ever be romantically interested in me?" Oh my God. I wrote back and said, "Did you forget where you left me? I'm in Afghanistan. I can't be romantic about anything. You must have a plan so indulge me." The plan was we'd write letters like they did in World War II and try to get to know each other that way. Ultimately then I got injured and life changed, but Robert [00:09:00] had proposed two months prior to me getting injured. I really thought that might be a war stopper. He said he didn't care that I was blown up and deaf. That's a great guy, don't you think?. Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Erik: I love that. Jeff: The fact that you feel in love in the sandbox and then developed and cultivated this relationship and it was all prior to your injury, that says a lot about the character of both of you and what you've been through. Erik: [00:09:30] Gretchen, by the way, I can relate to your story because my wife, when we were dating ... I'm blind and I have prosthetic eyes. It was this big event for me to have the courage to take my eyes out in front of my wife. I don't know if you can relate, but I was terrified because I was thinking, "Oh, I'm imperfect. She's gonna think I'm ugly." I took my eyes out and she said, "I [00:10:00] can live with that." I love that, when you find somebody who understands you're imperfect, you've been hurt and beat up a little bi but you're still lovable. Gretchen: Absolutely. I agree totally. Jeff: Tell us a little bit, Gretchen, about the journey that led you to that day and give us a sense of [00:10:30] how that day played out and then the near future as you started to heal, both emotionally and physically. Erik: And people don't know that you had nine combat tours. Gretchen: It started in Granada. I jumped into Granada and did Panama and Central America, [inaudible 00:10:59], Bosnia, [00:11:00] Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Over a 27 year period, I had nine combat tours. I felt like I was a cat. I knew it was gonna get me sooner or later. Jeff: Was it the ninth when the incident took place? Gretchen: Yeah, the last one. That was that one. What happened that day was I was flying around in my helicopter [00:11:30] to visit troops at a fort operating base, a very remote place. It was pretty exposed. I was just there visiting troops. We were out walking around. I'm just asking troops questions. All of sudden we take rocket fire coming in like rain. It was pounding us. I was telling to [00:12:00] the troops to get in the bunkers, get in the bunkers. We had these concrete bunkers scattered throughout the installation. Before I could even get myself into a bunker, a rocket hit about 10 feet from where I was standing. It threw me into one of the concrete bunker, which then resulted in my brain injury. It blew out my eardrums and took some shrapnel in places that weren't protected by my flight vest. The next thing I know I'm waking [00:12:30] up lying down in the back of a helicopter and I'm thinking to myself, "This is not the way I normally ride in a helicopter." Then I was motored back to [inaudible 00:12:40]. When I got to [inaudible 00:12:44], they put me in a semi-coma just to do an evaluation to see what all ... maybe if I had some internal injuries and just to plug up all the little holes from piece of shrapnel. Those things just make it nasty. [00:13:00] They get in and they fester and things. When I came out of the coma, there was a very young army doctor standing next to me with one of those white dry erase boards and he had a marker. He wrote on the board and then showed it to me. It says, "You're deaf." I took the board from him and I wiped it off with my hands. I wrote on there, "Forever." He goes, "Yes." Of all my injuries, [00:13:30] that was probably the hardest one to overcome because you wake up deaf. You're a hearing person. I was 46 years old, been a hearing person my whole life. All of a sudden, I'm deaf, on top of that with the head injury and all the other things. Honestly, the thing that really kicked me in the gut wasn't even my physical injuries. What kicked my in the gut and made me pause [00:14:00] and made me afraid was I went from hero to zero in one second. I didn't have a transition plan. It had not even crossed my mind about retirement even though I had 27 years. We were still at war and I wanted to be with my troops. I was just so devastated and probably really angry that I'd didn't get to go out on my terms, that my career was snatched from me [00:14:30] at the hands of the enemy. I think that injury, that devastation was the hardest one for me to overcome. Erik: What's that like? No Barriers is a lit about understanding these processes that we go through. What is that like being a hero one minute and then a zero in the next? What's going in your brain, all the [00:15:00] uncertainty, all the confusion, all the psychological fear? What is that experience like? Gretchen: The experience for me was I just didn't have a path any longer. I was just kind of like, "What now?" Toppled with these injuries, I just thought, "Nobody's gonna want me. I'm not ever gonna work again. How am I gonna communicate with people." [00:15:30] I was lost, as lost as lost can be. I hit this really low point and where, as hard as I tried ... and I'm a pretty determined person. I'm a marathoner and I jump out of airplanes and I repel. I do all these things. All of a sudden, I was this hearing and the brain injury were almost prohibitive from doing all the things I knew how to [00:16:00] do. I had these non-marketable skills like taking over small countries. That doesn't really resonate well in the civilian life. I didn't know what I was going to do. Honestly, I was in a black hole for a very long time. Jeff: I've heard you say as well because remember I heard you speak in Ashville and you talked about losing your family and your fellowship and your mission. When you say [00:16:30] your family, you're talking about your military family, right? Your team, right? Gretchen: Yeah, my team, my soldiers. I had been with them my whole adult life. If you think about it, I went in right after I turned 19 and I was 46 years old. My entire, almost, adult life had been spent in uniform with troops. I was not prepared for the civilian world. I'm still kind of a little bit of a crappy civilian to be honest. [00:17:00] That was my family. That was what I woke up to everyday for 27 years. These were my battle buddies and I had a mission. I knew what I was supposed to do. It was very well defined. I was good at it. I had honed in on my skills. That's when I said I went from hero to zero. I had no skills that I thought were applicable to life after the military. Jeff: Do you also think that there are certain people that get [00:17:30] into a routine maybe, they have a direction of serving? You're very good at serving other people. Then you get hurt or something happens and you don't know how to be served. You don't know how to be helped. It's like a totally weird situation that a lot of people get in that situation where they don't know how to handle it, right? Gretchen: Yeah, very true. Especially as a sergeant major because our rank is very special. We're supposed to be the advocate for the troop. [00:18:00] If you work for a three or four star general, he or she comes to you and usually he defers to you because they're your third or fourth general and you may be their first sergeant major. Anyway, you have the pulse of the unit. Your responsibility are to the troops and to make sure they're taken care of. I wasn't used to anyone taking care of me. I was taking care of other people. All of a sudden, [00:18:30] now I was kind of needy, which is gut wrenching at first because you don't even know how to ask for help nor do you want to. You don't have the words for it and also, it just feels so wrong. Jeff: It sounds to me like, Gretchen, you went through all of these different phases of emotion following your injury that we always hear so much about all the way from anger to frustration to sadness to [00:19:00] depression and then finally, at some point, you get to reconnect. Can you walk us through that path for you and how you've morphed from that fateful day to where you are now and then maybe give us a sense of your experience in the Gila wilderness and what part that played [00:19:30] in your experience as far as healing. Gretchen: It was really very a strange thing. I had kept in touch with some of my troops. We don't have to say a lot for people to know that something's not right. It's like a sixth sense almost. One of my guys wrote to me. He says, "You know, sergeant major, [00:20:00] I realize you're in a bad place right now. I just came back from a No Barriers expedition. You really should check this out because I know you like to be outside and you like to hike because you used to march our butts off all the time. This is right up your alley, carrying heavy crap and walking all over the place and not showering." He says, "This has got your name all over it." Initially, I tried everything else. I had tried [00:20:30] therapy and I tried medication. Each of those, at the time, were somewhat helpful but they weren't the silver bullet that I was looking for to get out of this hole. I wanted out of the hole. I was clinging to the very sides to keep from falling in. Just because he asked me and because of our relationship, I got online and filled out an application. Part of the process is that the physician [00:21:00] that works with No Barriers calls and talks to the warrior and talks about your disabilities. He gets on the phone and he says, "Okay, tell me what's wrong with you." In my mind, I thought, "They're not gonna take me anyways, but I'm gonna be honest." I said, "Okay, I'm deaf as a doornail. I have a traumatic brain injury. I have PTSD. I have little shrapnel pieces still all over me. I have a right side weakness [00:21:30] that can be problematic." I had a litany of things that I said that were wrong with me. He paused for like three seconds, then he says to me- Erik: You're perfect. Gretchen: You're exactly what we're looking for. Erik: You're perfect. Gretchen: You're perfect. Erik: That's right. You're perfectly imperfect just like the rest of us. That's beautiful. Gretchen: It was beautiful. Erik: Okay, you got accepted into the program. I'm just curious about what it was like to be with some colleagues because, [00:22:00] as you mentioned, the biggest pain you were experiencing was this lost of comradery and fellowship. Take us through that a little bit. Gretchen: At this point, really my physical injuries were what they were. I made accommodations to all the technology out there to help me with my hearing issue, my brain injury same with that. My real issue was [00:22:30] that I was just disconnected from life and from other people. I go on the expedition and a group of fantastic people, there was one other female and the rest were male warriors from all eras. We had two guys from Vietnam and then the rest of us were mostly post-9/11 veterans. It was in Colorado. The minute we all sat down [00:23:00] for the very first meeting, I felt like I'm back home. I might not be wearing a uniform, but these are my guys. Once we kind of told each other about ourselves and I told them I was a sergeant major, they wouldn't even call me by my first name anymore because that, to them ... Later they told me that made them feel so safe and so connected to because they each had a story about a beloved sergeant major who had made a difference in their life. It was like all [00:23:30] the stars lined up. It was just perfect. We hiked and we talked and I felt like all of a sudden, that hole started filling up with just good things. The despair that I been feeling and the hopelessness, little by little with each step as I was walking up those mountains started to dissipate. It turned the corner for me. There was some healing afterwards. I still wake up every day and not [00:24:00] everybody's perfect but that one expedition was the turning point in my life. Erik: I thought that was interesting. This is Erik, Gretchen. You talked about a hole and then you start to fill up that hole. Do you think that's what healing ultimately is? There's a lot of people listening probably that are experiencing a loss or getting stuck somewhere [00:24:30] and they want to heal. What does that look like? What did that process look like for you, filling in that hole of loss? Gretchen: What it looked like for me is first you gotta realize that you got a hole. The first step in getting better is self-awareness. I knew I had a hole, but it became really obvious to me how deep and wide it was when I got on the expedition. [00:25:00] Letting people into your life and realizing that helping other people, I would say probably other than the guides, I was in the best shape on that hike. I'm very petite. I'm 5'2" and 98 pounds on a good day. I would carry extra stuff for people and hike. That let me help other people, which is really was I felt like destined [00:25:30] to do my whole life. I was just doing it in a different way so that void of losing my troops was replaced by engaging with other people who also were trying to fill a hole. There's like this unity thing like we're gonna heal each other. Erik: Cool. Where did that lead you after that trip? You graduate and then you make a No Barriers pledge. Tell us about that amazing pledge [00:26:00] that's resulted in your book. Gretchen: I had to think about this pledge. There's lots of things that I could've pledged but I had been working on this book that really came out of putting down the stories of 27 years of serving with the most heroic men and women I've ever met in my life. It's really about the troops. It's written from my perspective but it's these wonderful stories about them. My pledge was the finish the [00:26:30] book. It probably was honestly about 89% finished already, but for some reason I just couldn't put that last period on the page because I didn't think I was healthy enough to finish it. Maybe I was afraid. I said to my guys and gals that were hiking with me, I said, "I'm gonna finish that book and you're gonna read it some day. Hopefully it will be meaningful for you." I did. I finished [00:27:00] it shortly ago. It's called Leading From the Front. It's lots vignettes about these remarkable things that happened in those 27 years. Jeff: Do you consider yourself a writer? I think a lot of people ... Erik and I have both written books. I think some people would say, "I'm a writer. I enjoy the process because in a way, it's a little bit therapeutic." Did you find that through the case or was it a struggle or did you despise the process or did [00:27:30] you embrace it at some point? Gretchen: When I was writing it, I wasn't thinking I was writing it ... I was writing it to help heal myself because I was writing about things that happen. When you put it down on paper, you have to remember better. Sometimes your brain plays tricks on you. When you write it down, I had to explain what it smelled like and what it sounded like and why Sergeant so-and- [00:28:00] so did this and all the little [inaudible 00:28:03] pieces. I don't consider myself a writer. I consider myself a storyteller. Jeff: Why did you call it Leading From the Front? I've seen books and people talk about leading from behind and leading from every direction. Why did you call it Leading From the Front? Is that an allusion to the frontline? What is that? Gretchen: In lots of ways, that title resonated with me. One, always try [00:28:30] to be someone that my soldiers could respect and look up to, not physically but somebody to eliminate and to lead with a firm but a kind heart. Also, I did lead from the front as often as I could. I wasn't one to stay back at the headquarters. I wanted to be up there with them. I wasn't a risk taker, I just [00:29:00] felt like if I'm asking them to do that then I aught to be there with them. It's that. That's where that title came from. Erik: I think that's your wiring, Gretchen. You're just absolutely wired. One takeaway from you is you were born to lead and when that got taken from you, you have to find a different outlet for you. I so applaud the idea of [00:29:30] who you are and what you've become since your injury. It's clear you live for others in a big way. The fact that, fur to your injury, you were put in a situation where you couldn't do this thing that is so you. I can imagine that really hurt and really [00:30:00] struck you right in the gut. After you finished your first No Barriers' experience other than the pledge and the book, what else have you taken on your journey since then and how have you applied it to your life in Ashville as a civilian and doing the things that you do from day to day when you're not in the back country with a warrior's team. Gretchen: [00:30:30] I went on another expedition after that initial one to the Gila wilderness. Part of the No Barriers program is a phase three where we stay connected with warriors after they finish their expedition and offer them we call it coaching. We offer them assistance and encouragement. You become part of a rope team for them to help [00:31:00] them achieve their goals. I find that incredibly satisfying. I have my little group of warriors that I reach out to and just plot along. Sometimes they need a kick in the butt to say, "Come on, you can do this." Sometimes they need you just to listen and you let them work out the problem for themselves because usually within themselves, they have the answer. You just get blinded by the circumstances. I spend a lot of my time working with my Barriers alum. [00:31:30] Also, I'm working with our development team so we can raise more funds so we can send more warriors and youth on programs. I enjoy that because I love telling the story about No Barriers. To me, it's not hard to sell such a great program. I can speak from experience that had I not taken the chance and filled out the form that day, I feel like I could have very easily become another statistic, which would have been [00:32:00] awful for everybody. Also, I help my husband in his job. His hospital serves 10,000 veterans every week or so. Just advising him sometimes on the way that soldiers think and what's important to them. I'm a good person for him to come home to and say, "I had this situation. What would you suggest would be best way to handle this," and try to [00:32:30] help him so he can make the VA an easy, safe place for veterans to get good healthcare. Erik: A lot of this conversation, Gretchen, has been about leadership and service. You served for 27 years in the military and then this thing happens to you, this thing of great loss. You're still leading. In a way, [00:33:00] what's going through my mind is that there's an ironic thing here. Has this helped you understand leadership or become a better leader than you might have if you hadn't gotten hurt? Gretchen: Absolutely, I have no regrets. You know what? It made me a better leader, absolutely. I really had to dig deep and I had to understand and try even harder to be empathetic and sympathetic [00:33:30] and be this strong person so that people would ... I used to always say to my people they don't care what you know until they know that you care. Part of it is just letting people know that you care to begin with and then to walk with them. Part of my pledge on my last one was to sit with the broken. I mean that in the sense that I want to be there when people [00:34:00] feel like they don't have any other hope and I can reach out because I've been in that hole. I don't want to get back down in it with you, but I'll certainly give you a hand because I know the way out. Just to help people get out of that hole and fill it with things that are out there. I think that's really. It's made me exponentially a better leader. Erik: You certainly are. Jeff: You truly are [00:34:30] the prototype of a No Barriers warrior, Gretchen. You've gone through a transformational experience. You been knocked down, and then you stood back up. Now what you're doing is completing that heroes journey, that whole Joseph Campbell's heroes journey circle. You chose to go into battle. You elected to voluntarily. You went into battle, you got your butt kicked. Now on the return of the completion [00:35:00] of that circle, you are now sharing our experiences to be able to improve the livelihoods of the people that you care the most about. I think that that's ... I know the word hero gets thrown around. You probably don't like it. It's just a little bit I know about you, but that's the true testament to what it means to be an archetype hero within a hero's journey. Really amazing. Erik: I think it's all of us in the No Barriers community [00:35:30] are honored and fortunate to have you as a colleague. Jeff: Yeah. Erik: And it's gonna be fun trekking across the Tibetan Plateau with you in June, Gretchen. Looking forward to that experience. Thanks for being with us today. Gretchen: That you both for your kind words and for having me on your program and for all that you do. I'm gonna keep plugging along until I get to the finished line and I'm exhausted. Yes, Erik, it will [00:36:00] be fun to be trekking across wherever we're going. I look forward to it. Thank you, gentlemen. Jeff: Thanks, Gretchen. Erik: Alright, cool. Hey, Jeff, that was an awesome interview. A lot of takeaways- Jeff: I just continue to be blown away by how the definition of a No Barriers participant continues to grow in my mind. I've been with you since the beginning [00:36:30] and watched the program evolve. There's some stories that are outstanding, but Gretchen's may be the most because she really exemplifies, embodies what it means to be a warrior and to be a hero. Give me your bullet points of what you take away mostly from that conversation with Gretchen. Erik: I think it's [00:37:00] just such authentic lessons of leadership, none of this stuff that you hear in Hollywood or fictional books. It's real. It's so real. It's somebody who's bled their message. I love stories like that. That personally inspires me. I like what she talked about it terms of what she talked about, a hole of when she got hurt. A hole being formed and you gotta fill that up. I love that analogy. Yeah, I think even a psychological loss [00:37:30] is like a hole. You gotta fill that up. What do you fill it up with? You fill it up with purpose, with mission, with your team, with service, with love, with empathy. That's powerful for me. Jeff: And the fact that ... I find it so profound that this woman literally was probably a child and knew she was going to be of service to other people. You can just tell it. It's just in her genetic [00:38:00] code this was going to be her path whether she's gonna embrace it or not. It's just who she is. I find that so fascinating. Then to have it pulled right out from under her, the ability and the venue to be able to engage and inspire and lead from the front for her soldiers. I think she mentioned it, the idea that could've [00:38:30] just sat and spun. She could've just fallen right off the cliff, but she chose not to. You and I have heard it plenty of times in all the warriors that we've done trips with and have gone through the program, I feel like that is the universal core message is my leg is one thing, my PTSD is one thing, my hearing is one thing. Just like Gretchen said, the thing that hurts the most is I'm not with my people. [00:39:00] I lost that purpose and I need to rediscover it. I'm so happy for her that she continues to find that through this program. Erik: Still building that map. I love it. Anyway, thank you. It was an awesome interview. If people want to learn more about No Barriers, go to nobarriersusa.org. We have a lot of events coming up. We have our What's Your Everest event out here in Colorado. We got a summit coming up in October [00:39:30] in Manhattan down the intrepid aircraft carrier. In Central Park, we're gonna have an amazing line-up where you can come out and celebrate the No Barriers life. Just check us out and we'll keep coming to you with amazing people like Gretchen. Thanks, Jeff. No Barriers.

Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided Welcome to the 4th episode of Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you the latest innovations from across the Vocational Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. On this 4th episode of Job Insights Hope Paulos joins Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson in the studio and they talk about productivity apps and software. From the classroom to the workplace, these apps are geared towards making your daily challenges a bit more manageable, efficient and productive. Hours Tracker, Black Board, Drafts, Files, SeeingAI, Dictionary Thesaurus Pro, KNFBReader and Bookshare’s Read To Go app are all mentioned with some great discussion about how we use these apps. A great little Scan Stand named Foppidoo makes the scene and a conversation on Lift and Uber gets quite a chat as well. You can check out the Meet Me Accessibly book from Jonathan Mosen and learn about Zoom on the PC. Join the Job Insights crew and download some apps and give them a whirl. Hey, productivity rocks! We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music! Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided [Music] Female voice: I feel like I'm getting a lot better education so yeah, I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Female Voice: But sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. Jeff: Learn about resources for training education and employment opportunities. Female Voice: Blackboard, that is a learning management system and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes. So this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment, from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Male Voice: Fopydo people sounds good and I actually at that time asked my son, and I, it was actually a play on the on Scooby-doo. Jeff: And you can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network with hosts Serina Gilbert and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover. On Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the Job Insights support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Female Voice: Lift also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with the service animal. Jeff: But hey it's a good learning tool, because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you, mm-hmm, so I dug right in, when I saw they had flashcards I went Wow! [Music] Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. [Music] Jeff: Welcome to Job Insights and this week we're talking about apps, apps that you'll use in school, at the workplace, and these are productivity type of apps, and with me today of course is Serina Gilbert how are you doing? Serina: I'm good Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I'm just doing great and we got a guest today all the way from Maine. Hope Paulos, how are you Hope? Hope: I'm doing great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good, we're all doing good, so that's good. Today we're gonna talk about apps, you know some of these apps are mostly productivity type of things, stuff that you'll use to, you know get things done and that's, that's what we're, we're all about here on Job Insights. So Serina, last podcast you said you were holding out on us from what you're gonna tell us, is the cliffhanger over or are you gonna tell us? Serina: Oh we've got a little bit of a wait cuz we have to talk to Hope first, we have a guest. Jeff: How about you Hope, what do you got? Hope: I certainly don't have a cliffhanger. [Laughter] Serina: We set her up there Jeff! Jeff: yeah. Hope: Yeah you did! [Laughter] Jeff: So Hope, how's it going out and Maine? Hope: It's going well, the weather is nice finally, when I talked to you and Pete last time, it was March, and it was in the 20's, 20 degrees. Now we are in about the 60's, 70's, so I am absolutely loving it, birds are chirping, the guide dog is going for walks, he's enjoying it, Jeff: Is he bringing you with? Hope: Oh yeah of course! [Laughter] Jeff: That's great! Serina: But Jeff needs to know if you planted any Apple trees? Hope: No. Serina: Only PC trees? Hope: Only PC trees. [Laughter] Jeff: Oh that's the running joke isn't it? So when it comes to productivity type of apps, Hope what did you bring to the show today? Hope: Sure, so I have a couple of them. I don't use this particular one very much right now because I do work for Apple, and Apple has me on a strict schedule so I don't need this particular one, but for people who are freelancing, the name of the app is called Hours Tracker, it's a free app and basically it allows you to track your hours of course, hence the name, but it also allows you to track your earnings, and it will deduct the taxes as well. So it will tell you how much is deducting for taxes. So it's great for individuals who are freelancing. The second app that I have brought to the show is Blackboard. That is a Learning Management System and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes, so this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. This will allow you to do your classes online literally anywhere and actually a couple of the blindness organizations were working in tandem to get this particular app accessible. It's extremely accessible, there was only one thing that I commented on a couple weeks ago and I sent feedback in to the iOS developers and they fixed it. They're very very good about fixing issues that people might have. The other app that I brought, that I brought to the show is Learning Ally. This is an app that will allow you to download books and it's also good for individuals who are dyslexic and who have low vision because I believe it will allow you to magnify the print in the actual book so you can read along with the narrator which is quite helpful. That's more University as well, University-type app, Productivity app and of course the last app would be the Bookshare app. The Read2Go, this allows you if you have a membership to Bookshare, which I believe most students can get for free, it allows you to read the books on your phone be it Android or iOS. Jeff: Now on the Hours Tracker, is that what it's called? Hour Tracker? Hope: Hours Tracker yeah. Jeff: Hours Tracker. So when you're doing the setup, your presets, do you put in your wage, and then it just calculates it and are you able to output that anywhere, or is it just something you read? Hope: Absolutely, so this particular program allows you to put in the wage, and it allows you to put in whether or not taxes are withheld, so technically even if you were, you know not freelancing, if you working a job as an employee, a W2, you could use it as well. Basically it allows you to put in your breaks and your lunches and things like that, and it lets you know when to go on the break, and when to go to lunch, and when to clock out, and when to clock in. [Music] App Voice: Sample Job, 0.05H today, 0H button, clock out now or long-press for extras menu, button, next clock out now, button, cause now, button, break now button, break now, sample job 0 H on break 8:10 a.m., 0.02H button, end break or long press for extras menu button, end break. Hope: It also will let you know, like you can, you can set a reminder to have it automatically clock in when you get to work, and yes you can send it, I think it's a CSV file, or CV file, something like that, a database file, and it will put it in an Excel spreadsheet I think as well, so that you can show it to your employer. Jeff: That's kind of neat. Serina: That's pretty cool I like that. Hope: Yeah it's a it's a pretty neat app for sure. Jeff: Intuit the makers of QuickBooks and various tax applications has a program and it might be part of their bundle and I believe you can buy it separately, I believe it's called Self-Employed, but that sells on a monthly subscription for 7 to 8 dollars a month. Hope: Yeah this is free and I think, I'm trying to think if I paid for anything, I think I did just because I was freelancing at the time and I wanted them more, more, so it has a lite version and it has a full-featured version, but even the full-featured version wasn't some really really, you know cheap price. Jeff: A one-time fee? Hope: A one-time fee yeah. Jeff: That makes perfectly good sense, economically I can track that pretty good. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: You can download Hours Tracker free from the App Store or the Google Play Store. Hourlys Tracker is free for up to 21 days of time entries and if you upgrade to the pro or professional, you get rid of all the ads, unlimited amount of entries that you can make, the only difference between the professional and the personal is you can have unlimited amount of jobs in the professional, and you can upgrade to the professional or the personal in the in-app option. The professional will run you $9.99 and the personal will run you $5.99. Once again, a one-time payment, I was really intrigued when I heard about Hours Tracker, I downloaded to my iPhone, and started using it right away, I named a job, I started the time, and when I was completed I stopped the time. I also had the option to input the time that I wanted it to start or input the time that I wanted to stop, otherwise you could do it in real time and that works out really nice. There's also an option that you can take notes and keep them with that job. I found that the accessibility on Hours Tracker on my iPhone was second to none, all the buttons were labeled and the intuitiveness was what I expected for when I have started logging the job, putting in the hours, getting out of the job, putting notes in, was just exactly how I expected it would work and it did work that way. Another small part of the accessibility, it lets you cancel a pop-up or dismiss the pop-up that comes up, and I really like that because if you've ever had a pop-up pop-up and not be able to get rid of it, that's not good. So after kicking around Hours Tracker on my iPhone for one job, I personally recommend this for anybody who is self-employed or someone who works on projects and just wants to have better records of the time they spend on their projects and jobs. [Music] Jeff: So on the Blackboard, I remember I have not experienced Blackboard yet, but I remember going to college and I was at the mercy of every professor that was experimenting by putting stuff on the web and accessing it through a link they give you, and if it was accessible you got lucky, so Blackboard is a collective effort to make it accessible for everyone. Hope: Absolutely, so it all depends on the type of class you're taking obviously right, if people don't know I'm going back to school to become a teacher of the blind and visually impaired and so all of the courses need to be accessible to me. So the professor's will tag their images so that I can know what's going on, their quizzes are all accessible, obviously the discussion boards are all accessible, and I use a combination of the two apps, so I use the combination of Blackboard and I use Learning ally to be able to do my classwork, and literally like I said, I can do it anywhere. With the phone if I have a Braille display and/or a Bluetooth keyboard I can do my homework on the beach or in the park you know, so literally anywhere and that's huge compared to when I was going back to school to get my undergrad degree, like you know 2009, that's when I graduated so it's, it's huge it's a huge step up. Serina: Yeah I remember using Blackboard when I was doing my master's degree which would have been gosh, probably around the same time as you are doing your undergrad, so I finished in 2010 and so, I don't know, 2007, 2008, somewhere around there's when I started it and they used Blackboard for everything. My program was pretty much 100% online, we didn't have the app back then, we just had the website, but even back then the website was pretty accessible. I rarely had any difficulties with it and I was going for the rehabilitation counseling so the professors were a little bit more cognizant of accessible media and documents and things like that. I loved using blackboard because it is easy to log on to, you know if I was on a break at work or whatever, or at home trying to get a discussion posted or something like that. Hope: Yeah it is really easy to use extremely easy to use. Jeff: Is that why you opted to do your classes online, not that you're on an island out off the shore of Maine, but..... [Laughter] Hope: Yeah I think, I think it's easier because I've done classes on site to, not having to do as my masters, but having to do with my undergrads degree. I find the digital world to be a lot more accessible, I just remember going to classes on site and didn't have a lot of input from the professor. The professor was teaching to a lecture hall full of I don't know, a hundred students, I just felt like I was kind of left out and wasn't getting all the notes that I needed to get, whereas here taking the classes online and using, again the combination of Blackboard and Learning Ally, I'm able to take the notes that I need, I'm able to contact my professors if I need to. I have peer to peer interaction as well. I feel like I'm getting a lot better education, so yeah I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Hope: Of sorts. Jeff: Yeah that's great because you know everyone has to do what works for them and if you found a good way of doing it that's great, having those two apps makes it all accessible. Hope: For the most part yeah everything is accessible, even from registering for classes, I go to Missouri State University, so using Missouri State's website is accessible. It's just huge, it's what we're able to do as people who are blind and visually impaired with a digital world, it's absolutely huge. Jeff: So is that something you looked for when you were looking for an online course that they did use Blackboard? Hope: Not really, I didn't know what they used, I contacted them, I did ask them in the beginning when I was registering for the program what they used and I could have used Moodle, Moodle was another application, another learning management system that I'm familiar with and either one I would have been fine with. I looked online and and saw the collaboration between the two blindness organizations regarding Blackboard and I'm like okay this is going to be fine, this is gonna be great, I know it's gonna be accessible, I contacted my professors beforehand and gave them my accommodations and all that and said I need extra time and because it's a digital world they can input my time-and-a-half for quizzes and allow me to have that time and you know they can input that in Blackboard and all is good. I can't speak enough good things about accessibility and digital stuff. Jeff: So let's see, there's Learning Ally, we will put that in the show notes, we'll put Blackboard in the show, we'll put all these in the show notes so people can click on them and go right to the App Store or the Google Play Store and we'll have the links there, so back to the cliffhanger. [Laughter] Jeff: Hi Serina. Serina: And I thought of one like while we were sitting here, so even you'll be surprised Jeff. Jeff: Ooo. [Laughter] Serina: My absolute number one favorite app and I see it all over all of the groups like iPhone and iPad apps, and the assistive technology group, all of them, a seeing AI, I don't think it's any surprise there. That app allows me to be a lot less dependent on a human reader to just go through what's in my mailbox that I get at work. Now I can just kind of okay, yeah I need someone to finish reading that to me, or oh, this is just something that needs to go in the file, it's cut down on how much time I have to spend with somebody sitting at my desk with me going through stuff, and it's free, which is amazing to me because I remember reading gosh, I think it was like two years ago when Microsoft had their hackathon and they had released a video about seeing AI and they were showing a demo of it and I was like, well that's cool but it'll never come out and if it does it'll be super expensive. And then all of a sudden there's a link, and it's free, and it works, like amazingly and it, I can't thank Microsoft enough for that, that actually was a big surprise for me. Jeff: Yeah, you just open it up and boom, short text is reading. Serina: Yeah, from across the room right Jeff! [Laughter] Jeff: Yeah, that happened to me and, I shouldn't say it but I was that Orcam demonstration when they were having the little issues, and I was reading the wall that had their sign on it, so I was like wow, this is already talking, just out of the box, just turn it on and there it is. Male Voice: I use seeing AI all of the time to determine what's in my medicine cabinet, for documents you know I use seeing AI for short text. [Music] Female Voice: I use the document reader all the time, not gonna say it's as good as KNFB Reader because it's not. I did a test between reading my mail with it and with KNFB Reader and I found KNFB Reader to be far more stable, but I still like the app, I use it a lot, I'm glad that it's one of the tools in our toolbox. Female voice: For reading and stuff I used to go to KNFB Reader all the time but it just seems like Prizmo go and seeing AI is so much easier that I tend to go to them more. Male Voice: Seeing AI is my main go-to app and I use that, the short text channel mostly if I can't identify an item with that I will switch to the product channel if it has a barcode. A lot of the apps like [Inaudible] and Aipoly Vision and [inaudible], I've deleted most of those off of there because I can accomplish the same thing with seeing AI [Music] Male Voice: Jeffrey I see apps like Aipoly Vision, [Inaudible], Identifee, of course the KNFB Reader, I think seeing AI is becoming the main tool in the toolbox. Jeff: And you know, all the other channels that they have on their to four options but that's the one I use all the time because, you open it up it works. Serina: Yeah there's a handwriting one too that I've tried only a couple of times, but it surprisingly did recognize the handwriting enough for me to figure out at least what the note was generally about cuz sometimes my clients will stop in and I can't see them, and they'll leave a handwritten note at the front desk and obviously it's probably dependent on the individuals handwriting but I was at least able to get the name of the client and know, okay I'll just call them and see what they needed. Jeff: Hmm, well that's good. Serina: That one's in BETA I think. Jeff: Yeah you always wonder when they have a little feature that's in there and they tag the word BETA after it's like, you better use it now because it may not be there! Serina: Or it's like the disclaimer don't trust this feature. It might not work right! Jeff: Mm-hm try it on a doctor's prescription. [Laughter] Serina: Oh gosh. Jeff: That's the to test. Serina: This is totally not productive but when seeing AI first came out, we were playing with it in my office to see how old it thought everyone was. [Laughter] So all of my co-workers were like changing their hairstyles or putting on glasses or taking off glasses to try to trick it to make it think that they were younger. Jeff: That's a great use of state-funded money. [Laughter] Serina: Hey! Jeff: I know everyone's been doing that, it's kind of a novelty thing and that's like artificial intelligence to me when they're built into apps to me, it's like you know when you go to the carnival, you know, they'll guess your age and you win the whistle or something but you know, I'm not into the novelty stuff but that really does work. Serina: Hope, do you use seeing AI for any of your school work, or since it's mostly digital do you not have to use it a lot? Hope: Yeah I use it sometimes, I use it for work actually to find out whether or not my Mac, my work Mac is gonna turn on correctly. We have so many policies in place at Apple that sometimes voice-over doesn't turn on correctly and so I use either seeing AI or I also use AIRA for that, but most of the time I just grab my phone and you seeing AI. Speaking of the, or how old people were, I actually did that last weekend I think it was on my grandmother's 93rd birthday. I went up to her and took a picture of her and had seeing AI tell her how old she was, now again she's 93 right, so it said a 65 year old woman is smiling, or looks happy or something like that and she's like, wait, did it say 65? [Laughter] Hope: Shes like, I like that! So it made her day. Serina: Yeah. Jeff: I actually think for women they do have a built in algorithm that knocks off a couple years just to you know, keep the customers happy. Serina: No it added 10 years to mine, no matter what it says 10 years. Hope: Oh really. That's funny! [Laughter] Jeff: The algorithm breaker! Serina: Gosh. [Laughter] The other one that I use is obviously very similar to seeing AI but sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. To my knowledge I don't know that you can scan multiple pages in seeing AI and if you can, somebody let me know, cuz I actually like it a little bit better. But sometimes when I'm working from home and I don't have access to my flatbed scanner but I need to read some printed like medical documents or things like that, I'll take out KNFB Reader and just scan a whole bunch of pages all at once and then read it, through it continuously, so that's very helpful, and then also you can save on KNFB Reader in their file system, and I think I saw on the latest update that now they can sync with Google Drive and Dropbox now to, so that's kind of a really cool feature that they've integrated in there now. Jeff: Yeah I like the KNFB Reader when I have like, I might have 10 pages of something to read and I don't want to take a picture of each of them so I put it on double sheet and then batch mode and when I turn the page it'll sense that, so you know you got the page turning then ch-ch-ch. KNFB Reader Voice: Manual picture button, automatic picture, picture from ste..., alert, please place your device on an empty document stand and align the camera with the aperture, okay, button, flash off, button, multi-page mode off, button, multi-page mode on. [Camera Sound Effect] Serina: Do you have a stand that you use with it? Jeff: Yeah I do, its the Fopydo and it was designed by Thomas Wardega, and here he is. Thomas: Fopydo sounds good, and I actually at that time asked my son, and it was actually a play on the on Scooby Doo. So basically this was designed from the ground up for people who are blind and visually impaired and along that process I learned to work with people who are blind so I went through a couple of revisions of the stand before I even started selling it just to make sure that people are happy with using it and that it fulfills whatever is needed from a scanning stand for people who are blind and visually impaired. [Camera Sound Effect] Jeff: It comes with a set of instructions that you can scan, you can put it together, once you got it together it just folds right up and you can put it in a suitcase, it takes up very little real estate. Serina: Oh I need one, and does it work with any phone or? Jeff: Well back when I talked with him he said it would handle, if you balanced it right, and iPad Mini, so I, I guess your your beast of a phone, your iPhone X may work. [Laughter] Serina: Yeah and put the link in the show notes cuz I've been, I thought, I had somebody looking for one before and they were like $50, I'm like mm-hmm, I'll just hold it up, you know. [Laughter] Jeff: Having the batch mode on the KNFB Reader really makes it viable product for someone that's in school that may have to be scanning a lot of pages. Serina: I definitely need one of those. Jeff: Yeah we'll put the link in the show notes and I believe he sells it on Amazon and if you have Amazon Prime, there you go, ten, twelve bucks. Serina: Primes getting expensive though it's like $120.00 starting this year. Hope: I think there's a discount for students. Serina: It's half off for students cuz I had that for a couple of years, and then they got smart and realized that I'm not a student anymore because my school let me keep my student email address for years, and I don't even think I have it anymore now. Now they make you verify by sending in like a schedule. Hope: Oh really? Serina: Yeah. Hope: Similar to Apple music, they do the same thing. Serina: Yeah, and I think Spotify does the same thing too. Hope: Yep. Serina: They got smart. Jeff: So we'll have to put the link in there for Amazon Prime half off for students, that's good news. Serina: Yeah that's it, and half off of Apple music and Spotify, not that those are, those could be productivity apps because if you need music to stay focused. Hope: Technically yeah, exactly, that works! Jeff: Or books. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: Amazon still sells books. Serina: Who orders books anymore? Jeff: Does anybody use Audible for books? Serina: I do not, I totally looked at it, but every time I looked at it I just can't, like I think it's thirteen ninety-nine a month for so many credits and one, the amount of credits you get for that amount is equal to downloading one book, and I haven't found that it's better than just using BARD, because they usually have especially if it's a best-seller what I want anyway. Jeff: Mm-hmm and the BARD app is totally accessible too. Serina: Yeah it's, it's a little old school sometimes, it has its glitches but it gets the job done. Hope: It can be yeah, exactly. Jeff: But it's, it's something that if you do send in a report and stuff like that they'll fix it? We can hope for the best right Hope? Hope: Yeah exactly, yeah sure, I'll write them, I'll give them a good report! Jeff: There you go. Hope: Sure. [Laughter] Serina: Well and it's hard because I know, I think that's run by the Library of Congress so that probably takes like an act of Congress just to get a glitch fixed you know. Jeff: Oh good one! Serina: I didn't mean it to be all cheesy but it's kind of funny. Jeff: Yeah it is, it is, it's nice when things work and you know, you were talking about seeing AI when you open it up short text just starts. I got an app called Drafts, just like the seeing AI, when you open it up it just works the short text is working, do you open it up and the cursors waiting up in the upper left-hand corner and you can start typing, you don't have to open up a new file. The neat thing is if you're in a meeting and you're taking notes and you can set it for certain increments of minutes that pass by and then next time like you open your phone, say it closed, it'll start a new file automatically. Serina: Well that's cool. Jeff: So you're not adding to your recipe you wrote two days ago that's still sitting there, do you want to save it, you don't know if you should save it, it automatically, so if you set it up for 10 minutes, if 10 minutes goes by, it saves it, and opens up a new one, just ready to go, so it's like a new sheet of scratch pad for you, can actually do some markups on it, yeah share it anywhere you want, it's really cool. I do the cut and paste and then just pop it into an email, bang! Serina: I like that, is that a free up too? Jeff: Yeah Drafts is free, I think it's called Drafts 5, there is a professional upgrade, a pro version and that is $20 a year or two dollars a month, but you can do a lot with just the Drafts app. I just love that because when you just want to take down a note, I don't like going into, I use pages because it syncs up with my apple orchard but when I'm at someplace where the meetings starting and I open up pages, you know it has to load up, it goes to the recent, and it seems like, you know all the gears have to spin around five times before anything happens, but this one opens up just bang, it's ready to go. Serina: I especially have that problem using the native Notes app on the iOS devices. Ever since they made it where you've got some notes on your iPhone, some on iCloud, some on Google Drive, or Dropbox or wherever, it's so hard for me to figure out where my notes are anymore that I just don't use that app anymore. Jeff: And that's my second app that I was going to talk about, it's the files app in iOS platform on the iPhone. Files, if you don't know where it went because it says, oh it's stored on the iCloud, or on the desktop in the iCloud, or on the iCloud Drive or wherever, and you start hunting around, but if you go to files and go to most recent, it'll check all those files, all those different drives, all the different places on your phone and everything, but if you go to recent and then if you click up on top you can go back and actually go specifically only to one area where you think it is, but if you put it on all, its checking all those drives that you have synced up with it and you can usually find it, so when I get lost for a second I just open up files and go to the most recent and there it is. Serina: That's a good tip, I didn't know that. I never really knew the point of the files app. Jeff: Yeah check it out, open it up and just see, and you'll see what you've been doing lately. Seirna: So I have one more that you do not know that is my favorite apps to use, any guesses? Jeff: Hope, what do you think it is? Hope: Hmmm, Uber, no it's not productivity, nevermind. [Laughter] Serina: Well technically it is, I do use Uber and Lyft a lot for work actually because I have to go as part of my job, I have to be at high schools and things like that and I am almost an exclusive Lyft user personally. Jeff: And why Lyft over Uber? Serina: I just have found just with my personal experience in the city that I live in that I've had better luck with Lyft drivers as far as friendliness and I have a service animal so, I've never been rejected on Uber, I'm actually, the only place I was was actually on Lyft. I found that the cars have been cleaner and the drivers just seem friendlier and with Uber I specifically am NOT a fan of the, if we wait more than two minutes, we're gonna charge you policy. Hope: Oh that's not good. Serina: Yeah that's a newer policy, maybe in the last six months and that policy just really bothers me especially when you're visually impaired. Drivers will say they're there and you're like where? You know, and if they're automatically gonna charge you, I think it's, I don't, I guess it's maybe like five dollars, if the driver has to wait I believe it's more than two minutes, like that's stressful, it's already nerve-racking like being like, hey I've got a service animal, are they gonna drive right past me, are they gonna pick me up, and then to know they're also gonna charge me an extra five bucks if I can't find them. And then they also tend to do the walk here and meet your driver thing. Jeff: Oh yeah. Serina: And I've never had that happen with Lyft no matter, I've been in downtown Denver and that's not happened before, but Uber will send you up a random parking lot or something to meet your driver. Hope: Oh wow! No thank you. Serina: Yeah so that's more why I'm Lyft exclusive, and then on the driver side I'm not quite sure how it breaks down, I don't remember how much the drivers get but I know with Uber it's not like a set percentage that the drivers get as far as, like I think it with Lyft the drivers get 75% of the fares With Uber, nobody really knows what percentage of the fare they get because they can, I've had drivers say like, yeah I've done rides Denver to you know, the DIA Airport and sometimes I get 60, sometimes I get a hundred, like there's no, I guess transparency with it. Jeff: Mmm-hm. Serina: And I can only speak to you know what I'm told, but I just personally feel better about using Lyft and for those who don't know, Lyft also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or a fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with a service animal and I feel like that's a very strong policy, and that's telling you where they stand on that very clearly, and I'm not, I'm not sure if Uber has come out as strong as they did. But that's all for a whole another podcast, you have to use all that when we talk about transportation. [Laughter] Jeff: No that's, that's good information because in my neck of the woods my wife uses Lyft, I use Uber and yet, I've been noticing that at certain peak times the price goes way up and other times it's low, and the waiting time changes, but you know, if it were two minutes, it's sometimes it's as low as thirty seven cents, but other times it's higher, you know, so things, I think it's the area you're in that really has, it makes a difference between which one you use, it is productivity because you got to get places and it's nice to know you can get there. Serina: And on time and on your own time. Jeff: Good. Serina: But that was a really good guess that brought on a whole another discussion, I liked it. [Laughter] Serina: But honestly we're on the app right now. Jeff: Ahh, zoom zoom. [Laughter] Serina: But part of my job is to train other people and to hold conference calls and things like that, and to my knowledge as far as like a true training platform where you can record and share your screen and things like that, I found that Zoom is the most accessible system out there that's also used by like companies all over the place. I know Skype is out there, but I don't know if Skype lets you like record the calls and things like that, I don't, like independently, not by pushing it through a different software but just right in the program recording it and having that access to be able to share your screen and still use your PowerPoint effectively and things like that. Jeff: Mm-hmm, and we're doing a neat thing for the first time here and we didn't know if we could do it but Hope sat beside us waiting patiently for us, but we figured it out and we're recording on two ends right now. Serina: Unless I pushed the wrong button again which is very possible. [Laughter] Jeff: Another cliffhanger, stay tuned next week when we find out! Serina: That will be our opener next week. Guess what I actually did it right! Jeff: You know, I'm starting to like Zoom because it's like I can't even tell you, you guys are here, because typically when we're using Skype in my headphones, I have this hiss when other people aren't talking so there's continuous hisses going on and then in the editing phase. So Zoom's really good and I really like the feature where you can send an email and people can just click on the link and they connect right up. Serina: Yep, it makes it really really easy. Hope: So a question I have, you mentioned sharing your screen, how accessible is that with voiceover? I heard through the grapevine that the voice-over will read actually what's on the screen. I don't know if it's true or not? Serina: So I haven't had a chance to test that because at work we don't use any Max, and then when I'm on a Zoom call and I am a participant I'm not usually on my iPhone. Hope: Right. Serina: So if you are leading the meeting and you're sharing your screen, it's actually pushing through a video of your screen, so it's almost like, I just imagine like a webcam watching your screen or whatever. Hope: Right, so I would assume it's not accessible then. Serine: Correct, but and I don't remember the keystroke, maybe Jeff knows, but I know in the latest major update to the OS on the Macs and iOS, you can have it essentially perform an OCR on the screen like live, with the software on the Mac, but I haven't had a chance to truly test that out just because I'm not usually on Apple devices when I'm participating. The way that I work around that, because I do have to present to individuals that use screen readers as well sometimes, is I usually will send my PowerPoint out ahead of time so that they can follow along while they're listening to the meeting, but then they also have access to the chat panel and everything else, it's just the visual of the video that they're not quite having access to but I, I just send it out ahead of time. Jeff: Yeah I haven't dug too deep into this, but Serina told me about Jonathan Mosen's book, and he did a full fledge book on using Zoom for calls and meetings and stuff like that, and yeah, I believe you can get that on Mosen's consulting on the website, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Serina: Yeah the book is called "Meet Me Accessibly" and it's very current based on, because I listen to maybe four or five chapters so far, and it sounds like he recorded it maybe in June of 17 and he does a really good job of letting you hear the screen reader and how it interacts with everything and going through all the different settings and explaining what exactly it is that they all do. Jeff: Yes he does he has quite a few books on Mosen's consulting so when you get there, just look around and he has tutorials on a lot of different topics, he's into the Mac, he's into, no not the Mac as much anymore, but he's into the PC, Microsoft. Serina: All these plugs Jeff, you're going to need to get some royalties! [Laughter] Jeff: Hopefully I get their name right and their website right. Another app that I have that I use and some people laugh at this, I use Dictionary Thesaurus Plus, and if you get the dictionary you can upgrade and you get, its a combination of Dictionary and Thesaurus Plus and I get the word of the day, and I'm just waiting to get that specific word to send Serina because she laughed at me when I talked about this app before. But it's just kind of neat because in there, they have flashcards and I'm on the bottom, they're not labeled but I figured out what two of them are, flashcards, so I took insight today just when I was skipping around there and I made a flashcard so on one side it says insight, on the other side it says the definition, so someone could actually go through there if they have a 10 word list that need to know or learn, like they're in school and they could actually input the word, get the dictionary, and there's also a button that says go to page, so if you want more definition you can just click on it, brings it right to the dictionary page and it's just kind of a neat resource if you're into that you know. If you want to know what words mean. Serina: Well that could you, I mean you just brought up a good point though, that could be a really good study aid for somebody if you're in a class where there's a lot of maybe theories, or specific definitions you need to know, you could load all those in there and while you're on the bus or whatever kind of be going through those, probably a more fun way than just reading the book. Jeff: Yeah and that's why I did it, like when I took Spanish, I made, I made note cards. I took these note cards and I brailled on one side, and then on the other side I had some other Braille, the translation in English to what it was, so I could just go through, and people were like joking with me like, Oh flashcards, it's like it's something for the kids or something, but hey, it's a good learning tool because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you. Serina: Mmm-hmm. Jeff: So I dug right in when I saw they had flashcards, I went wow! So I really like that and it's, uh I think there's a fee for the upgrade, might be a few dollars but you can get download at all for free and test it and then in the in-app you can upgrade. Serina: Nice! Jeff: Well I think we got a handful of apps here that you know through experience we, we've been trying, we've been using and stuff. Some of these apps if you find them useful click on the show notes, download them, check them out, and if you have any feedback or suggestions on the apps that you want us to do on our next show, give us a jingle, drop us an email at JobInsights@blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and uh, let us know what you think. Serina: What are we talking about next tiem John....John? Wow! Sorry! [Laughter] Jeff: Well Sarah! [Laughter] Jeff: What will our next one be on? Serina: I don't know, we have so many topics, normally I'm like, let's take this, let's let Hope pick the next topic, no pressure! Hope: No pressure yeah right mm-hmm! Let's do transportation since we kind of talked a little bit about it in this one, that would make sense. Serina: Getting to work. Hope: Yeah, absolutely. Serina: Perfect. Jeff: Getting to work, school, college. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: There you go Sarah! Serina: Stop it! [Laughter] Jeff: And if you want to contact Hope, she's on Twitter. Serina: If you want people to have it? Hope: Yeah my Twitter is Fidelco, capital F as in Foxtrot, I, D as in Delta, E, L, C, O, 4, the number four, ever. My email address is hopepaulos@gmail.com, so hopepaulos@gmail.com. Jeff: Well Hope thank you very much for coming on to Job Insights, it's really neat to have you and we're gonna have you back as soon as possible here for our next round table. Hope: Thank you so much Jeff and Serina, it was wonderful being here. I appreciate it! Serina: Yep, you have a great day! Hope: Thank you! Jeff: Do you know it's nearly midnight and you said have a great day? Serina: Well this will come out during the day. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: It was a real pleasure having Hope Paulos join us on the show today, all the way from Maine, and next week when we're talking about transportation all the way from New York we'll have Joe De Niro, so stay tuned to the next episode of Job Insights. And a big shout-out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music and you can follow him on Twitter at lcheechau, as always thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time bye-bye [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, We can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff: For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.  

Sign up for weekly reminders about upcoming guest interviews, here: InformationManagers.ca/pmn-podcasts For full show notes, along with webinar slides and resources register here: https://InformationManagers.ca/Jeff Do you need to right-size your clinic space? Are you frustrated because your clinic location didn’t turn out to be as good as you expected? Or maybe you couldn’t recruit those extra physicians or healthcare providers that you had planned? In this Practice Management Nugget Webinar for Your Healthcare Practice, Jeff Grandfield of The Lease Coach will discuss what healthcare business owners should know about sub-leasing. Has your circumstances changed? You might be dealing with changes to your business plan, for example your location isn't as ideal as you had planned changes in your business ownership revenue forecasts not as good as expected and your business space needs to work harder for you now considering sub-leasing your space for just a few days a week or long term It's not as scary as you think! It's time to right-size Jeff Grandfield will explain options that you can use to right-size your clinic space. Jeff Grandfield knows how healthcare providers and business owners can make the best of sub-leasing solutions. Jeff Grandfield, The Lease Coach, is my guest expert on Practice Management Nuggets Webinars for Your Healthcare Practice. Sign up for weekly reminders about upcoming guest interviews, here: InformationManagers.ca/pmn-podcasts

Job Insights Extra Meet Ivan Delgado: Being Your Own Boss Is Hard Work and Worth It All (Transcript Provided) Welcome to Job Insights Extra, part of the Job Insights Podcast with Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson, a podcast focused on the world of employment, career pathways and gainful and meaningful employment. The Job Insights Extra podcasts are success stories, interviews and demos that enhance the experience of reaching that career you want. On this Job Insights Extra we talk to Ivan Delgado, a Business Enterprise Program Operator from Las Vegas. How he got his start into the BEP  and what being a business owner has done for him. We hope you enjoy and if you have any questions for Ivan, you can send him an email. If you are interested in becoming your own boss and want to run your own business, contact your state services, your Devision of Vocational Rehabilitation and see what opportunities they have for you.   Full Transcript Below Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Transcript   [Music] Jeff: Welcome to a job insights extra where we will be talking to business enterprise program operator Ivan Delgado. [Music] He's from Las Vegas and that's where the Blind Abilities team went to get this interview at the Randolph Sheppard Vendors of America Sagebrush convention. What is the business enterprise program? It is a operation part of the Randolph Sheppard act that allows you to own an operate your own business. Check out your State Services, your DVR, and find out more about the business enterprise program. [Music] Job Insights is a podcast that is helping you find careers and gainful employment through innovations and opportunities and you can find the Job Insights podcast on Blindabilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities network, and as part of the Job Insights podcast, we will be bringing you the job insights extra, consisting of interviews, demonstrations, and news surrounding employment, careers, and jobs, with hosts, Serina Gilbert, and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at jobinsights@blindabilities.com. Leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover. You can also follow us on Twitter at JobInsightsVIP. Right now, please welcome Ivan Delgado. Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson, and I am at the Sagebrush convention in Las Vegas and I ran into a fairly new vendor here amongst the senior vendors. I'm talking to Ivan Delgado. How are you dong? Ivan: Alright man, how about yourself? Jeff: Good, good, just enjoying the convention and all of the busy lights and stuff, and noises I should say out there. Ivan: Nice city huh? Jeff: Yeah, and you're from Vegas? Ivan: Yeah man, welcome to Las Vegas, if anybody is listening, come and enjoy Vegas, we love your guy's money. [laughter] Jeff: I noticed that! [laughter] So what got you interested the business enterprise program? Ivan: So about 3 or 4 years ago man, finishing up, not finishing, taking a break from college for certain reasons, whether it was lack of assistive technology or books not being ready for me, I decided to take a break and my lady actually told me about this program. She had a few friends that have done it in California and other states, and she told me, you like to boss me around so you might as well boss people around and try to make money. Yep, a couple years later man, I have been fortunate enough to finally get my own site and I started, originally I started the program. I got my BEP license about 2 years ago. My first site opened February 1st of last year, we just had our one year anniversary, before that we had vending machines at the location I am in. We just, it took a while for the location, the actual location to open up. Jeff: Is there training involved when you first join? Ivan: Yeah, when I first joined, now it's a lot different man, but when I first joined it was pretty intense, what I think is intense man. It was, I want to say 9 months man, and don't quote me on that. Classes started in March and the first three months were strictly just books and learning bi-laws, and how to do PNL's, and marketing, it was pretty awesome man, for someone like me that, you know never had a business, don't have an idea, i was just used to working 9 to 5s. It was very helpful. We did a couple of course through Hadley, Hadley School for the Blind online. We did that and then we did a couple of ServSafe tests here, customer service exams that we had to get. I am fortunate and I could brag about it man, because again, I am blessed man, and I think I am one of the only vendors here in Nevada that does his own profit and loss statement. You have vendors that are paying 200 to 300 dollars to, for people to input simple numbers and again, thanks to those classes, thanks to those three months of actually putting in work man, and understanding PNL's, and little Bi-laws, and stuff like that is definitely helpful man. Jeff: You are your own accountant. Ivan: Yes sir, thank God man! Jeff: You gotta keep the profits up right? Ivan: Right right, that is one way of doing it man, saving money man, all you gotta know is how to work. We know how to work man, it doesn't matter if you are disabled or not man, it's ambition, as humans we hunger for that ambition man. We have it, it is just a matter of if we want it or not man, and a lot of the times we don't want it man, and that sucks, but we are our own worst enemies and our own best friends man, and only we can get what we want man. Jeff: So what suggestions would you have for someone who is interested in getting into the business enterprise program? Ivan: A lot of patience. A lot of patience, hard work. Here in Nevada the process is a little longer due to the lack of operators we have, you know we kind of have to prove ourselves and that is fair I think. But a lot of patience and , just because you're disabled doesn't mean that stuff is going to be handed to us, especially here in the business world man, we have just as much of a responsibility as anybody else. Just keep your head up and be strong. That's it, just stay positive and stuff could be worse and if we are here and you are listening to this podcast, obviously we have gotten this far and the sky is the limit after here. Jeff: So what does Sagebrush bring to you? Ivan: A lot of a lot of information. A lot of people like Mr. Jeff, sorry if, I am bad at names, I think that's your name [laughter] Jeff, but yeah, this man, that working, as a blind community we have to become close man and I'm, the best example man, I don't go out a lot and I don't network but it hasn't changed man, I don't believe in NFB's, and NCB's, and ACB's, I wish there was only one. I don't see for this separation between organizations when really we're all just one, and that's blind. We're all blind so I would love for us to stick together and become one. I think if we become one a lot of people would be aware of both our disabilities, of our business and the Randolph Sheppard Act, again if we advocate be strong, stay positive and network, go out to these kinds of meetings, kind of conferences, I think this could very well be accomplished. There is a lot of older gentleman and ladies that are in the program and it's time for younger generations to step up and I think this is the time. Jeff: There is a lot of wealth of information, they have been in it, they have seen it change, and that is the bigger thing that things have changed and now here you are paving your way, you know, you're two years in, pretty soon you'll probably be leading the show here. Ivan: Absolutely, and those are the plans man, and absolutely, we always have to be grateful to the people that have, that started this man you know, and we've gotten a long ways man, I mean from selling newspapers at Post Offices to you know, having places at Hoover Dam's or at airports, you know that's a huge accomplishment, and that couldn't have been done without the people that you know, are moving on or retiring now. And that is a huge gratitude to you guys, we thank you. Jeff: Well, Ivan Delgado thank you very much for taking your time away from the karaoke. You gonna sing out there? Ivan: No we already did man, I need two more shots, I think these last two shots were on you. [laughter] Jeff: Do you have an email? Ivan: Yeah man, that's ivan.delvilla@gmail.com. Jeff: Alright, well thank you very much for taking the time and just speaking on Blind Abilities. Ivan: Yes sir, have a good day! [Music] Jeff: So if you are interested in the business enterprise program, becoming your own business owner, entrepreneur, check it out with your division of vocational rehab, your State Services for the Blind and see what they can do for you. If you want to find out first hand from Ivan what it is like to be 2 years in, in the business enterprise program, shoot him an email, check it out. Links are in the show notes. So we hope you enjoyed this Job Insights extra, thanks for listening, and until next time, bye bye. [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.